NYT Editorial: Rahm Emmanuel's Delay of the Real Facts of the McDonald Shooting Was a Cover-Up to Guarantee His Safe Re-Election

Now explain to me how you assholes have such a rough intellectual time of it when you pretend to try to understand the Benghazi "YouTube" video cover-up?

Seems pretty simple -- just as in Emmanuel's case, a politically difficult event happened on his watch, so he tried to delay the real facts from coming out until after an election.

Where is your brain crapping out in this easy to follow logic, fellas?

So the New York Times seems to understand that this is a cover-up -- they let a guy post his opinion on their op-ed pages. (Though note, it's not the NYT's official editorial position.) can't wait for the same editorial on Benghazi.

After the cover-up, of course, must come the ad-hoc blue-ribbon commission to determine why the people empanelling the commission ordered the cover-up. I expect that to go the way of most such "Lemme Investigate My Own Wrongdoing" inquiries.

On Tuesday, Emanuel will seek to quell some of the growing chorus of criticism by announcing a task force his administration says "will review the system of accountability, oversight and training that is currently in place for Chicago's police officers," according to a brief news release issued late Monday.

"And definitely not the Mayor," the press release should have made clear.

Rahm Emmanuel has wasted little time in firing the chief of police for the corruption that he himself probably ordered.

Notice he did this not on Friday but on a Tuesday -- he wants this news out there.

"Now is the time for fresh eyes and leadership," Emanuel said at the news conference.

Apparently he's a fan of Obama's technique of calling for better leadership, while not resigning his leadership position.

I haven't seen it, but Jon Podoretz says the press conference Rahm Emmanuel just gave was "disastrous."

Posted by: Ace at 03:52 PM

Comments

(Jump to bottom of comments)

1 Everyone don their shocked faces!

Posted by: tu3031 at December 01, 2015 03:54 PM (YFFpo)

2 ...and first!

Posted by: tu3031 at December 01, 2015 03:54 PM (YFFpo)

3
and the corrupt little shit will still be reelected

Posted by: Soothsayer the autoresponsebot at December 01, 2015 03:56 PM (sixca)

4 I'll get the others

Posted by: AltonJackson at December 01, 2015 03:56 PM (ZQfW9)

5 This doesn't sound like the Chicago I know.

Posted by: Chupacabra at December 01, 2015 03:56 PM (5npD/)

6 Just wait until I am appointed a cabinet position in the Clinton administration...you haven't seen anything yet!

Posted by: Rahmbo III at December 01, 2015 03:56 PM (EIiez)

7 NYT knows what was done in both Chicago and Benghazi, they just think it's more important to insulate their chosen leaders from citizen anger.
They really believe it's their job to instruct us on what news is important, and which we shouldn't worry our silly heads over.

Posted by: Lizzy at December 01, 2015 03:57 PM (NOIQH)

8 I am just here for the free cheese.

Posted by: rebel flounder at December 01, 2015 03:57 PM (3dOE/)

9 And McCarthy got canned? Looks like I'm taking a trip over to Second City Cop later.

Posted by: tu3031 at December 01, 2015 03:57 PM (YFFpo)

10 >>>and the corrupt little shit will still be reelected

he already was, unless you mean for a 3rd term. which i don't know to be allowed.

Posted by: ace at December 01, 2015 03:57 PM (dciA+)

11 It's Chicago.

Posted by: Lea at December 01, 2015 03:58 PM (lIU4e)

12 Chicago will be cleaned up in no time.

Posted by: Nobody, Ever at December 01, 2015 03:59 PM (8ZskC)

13 He's the mayor of Chicago. NOT being horribly corrupt would be the newsworthy event.

Posted by: Lauren at December 01, 2015 03:59 PM (Z/8dZ)

14 Lets also just stand back and wonder why no one at the NYT or other media outlet has noticed that all of these sketchy police shootings happen in cities that have been Democrat run for decades.

The #BLM activists will never acknowledge this either because they know which party funds their activities/gives in to their shake-downs.

Posted by: Lizzy at December 01, 2015 03:59 PM (NOIQH)

15 Rahm Emmanuel is a Cook County/Chicago political thug. What on earth did anyone expect?

Posted by: Mikey NTH - Scapegoats and Sacrificial Lambs at the Outrage Outlet! at December 01, 2015 04:00 PM (hLRSq)

16 The fired police chief should talk.

Posted by: Steevy at December 01, 2015 04:00 PM (8HTq1)

17 I saw the presser and it was bad. He was incoherent, defensive, testy ... in many ways the story of Obama.

Posted by: JackStraw at December 01, 2015 04:00 PM (/tuJf)

18 "and the corrupt little shit will still be reelected"

Yes. Because everything is just ducky in Chicago.

Posted by: Ricardo Kill at December 01, 2015 04:00 PM (LA7Cm)

19 Errors in judgement were made and additional studies must be conducted in order to prevent such mistakes again.

Posted by: Final Panel report conclusion at December 01, 2015 04:00 PM (z/Ubi)

20 Rahm has fired the police chief. The wheels on the bus go round and round.

Posted by: The Great White Snark at December 01, 2015 04:00 PM (IWLe1)

21 I'm glad my kids are in their twenties and I'm not trying to raise young ones right now.

My millennials are pretty jaded right now and don't trust damn near anyone. Except me. With my ATM card.

Posted by: Cheri at December 01, 2015 04:00 PM (oiNtH)

22 If the glaciers on Lake Michigan melt, it will be on your head. Or something.

Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at December 01, 2015 04:00 PM (659DL)

23 Sure, the shootings are bad and everything, but how can Chicago justify charging you $50 to puke in a cab?

Posted by: Cicero (@cicero) at December 01, 2015 04:00 PM (8ZskC)

24 he already was, unless you mean for a 3rd term. which i don't know to be allowed.
Posted by: ace at December 01, 2015 03:57 PM (dciA+)

It's Chicago. I don't think they have term limits, or the Daleys found a very colorful way to get around them when they were mayors for life.

Posted by: Harry Paratestes at December 01, 2015 04:01 PM (AkOaV)

25 I read it, he made police commissioner resign. He's also recruited former MA governor Deval Patrick for Special Commission.
Patrick is just like TFG.
He's from Chicago too.

Posted by: Carol at December 01, 2015 04:01 PM (sj3Ax)

26 I keep waiting to arrive at that point that is the point where the political left has gone too far.

It's like that mathematical logic puzzle that says you will never reach that point if you only go half of the distance remaining.

Eventually you have to reach that transition that is instantaneous and non linear.

Posted by: Lester Flaggines at December 01, 2015 04:01 PM (PLZH5)

27 This doesn't sound like the Chicago I know.

-
It sounds like the Chicago I know.

- Al Capone

Posted by: The Great White Snark at December 01, 2015 04:01 PM (IWLe1)

28 Who's up for a Blue Ribbon Panel? We'll even supply the blue ribbons!

Posted by: Rahm Emmanuel at December 01, 2015 04:01 PM (8ZskC)

29 16 The fired police chief should talk.
Posted by: Steevy at December 01, 2015 04:00 PM (8HTq1)

This is Chicago, and Rahm Emmanuel. You really think he hasn't been, uh, enthusiastically advised to keep his trap shut?

Posted by: Insomniac - Pale Horse/Death 2016 at December 01, 2015 04:01 PM (kpqmD)

30 Chicago almost makes Louisiana look honest

Posted by: Nevergiveup at December 01, 2015 04:02 PM (gf8BH)

31 It doesn't seem to matter how bad Emanuel is in a press conference. He might have some video stored away of "Man's Country".

Posted by: Cheri at December 01, 2015 04:02 PM (oiNtH)

32 I'm glad PC was a disaster!

Posted by: Carol at December 01, 2015 04:02 PM (sj3Ax)

33 Umm, no.

Posted by: Batman at December 01, 2015 04:02 PM (8ZskC)

34 C'mon Chicago. This is not who we are.

Posted by: Obama at December 01, 2015 04:02 PM (Kqit+)

35 Now why not just release the video immediately and fire the cop?

I'm not sure the criminal charges will stick, but clearly the cop made a shit judgment call. Should be easy enough to fire him, or at least reassign him to a rubber room or something.

Posted by: Harry Paratestes at December 01, 2015 04:02 PM (AkOaV)

36 He's also recruited former MA governor Deval Patrick for Special Commission.

I don't even....

Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at December 01, 2015 04:02 PM (659DL)

37 " If the glaciers on Lake Michigan melt"

Speaking of, did the ice in the Lakes ever completely melt this year?

Posted by: Ricardo Kill at December 01, 2015 04:03 PM (LA7Cm)

38
Thanks for the correction, Ace.

Upon further review I just discovered that Chicago has NO TERM LIMITS for mayoral position. What else do you expect from a city that's been run by the Daly Crime Family for decades.

Posted by: Soothsayer the autoresponsebot at December 01, 2015 04:03 PM (sixca)

39

If Obama wanted to, he could have made a big issue of this. He is after all from Chicago and well connected. He made statements on other cases like Ferguson and Baltimore

but he was silent. I guess black lives dont matter. Not to him

Posted by: ThunderB at December 01, 2015 04:03 PM (zOTsN)

40 Where is your brain crapping out in this easy to follow logic, fellas?

This is where I think I should start following sports like a real man.

I mean, we all think we're the cool kids for following the politics and the corruption, but how hard is it really?

Oh look, here comes the super-corrupt thing! Where? Down the super corrupt tracks on the super corrupt railroad heading super corruptly at us!

Posted by: Bandersnatch at December 01, 2015 04:03 PM (1xUj/)

41 Ace,
Benghazi was three years ago. We've been waiting & we will never know.

Posted by: Carol at December 01, 2015 04:04 PM (sj3Ax)

42 >>>I read it, he made police commissioner resign. He's also recruited former MA governor Deval Patrick for Special Commission.

Patrick is just like TFG.

He's from Chicago too.

Posted by: Carol at December 01, 2015 04:01 PM (sj3Ax)<<<

Now that I'm here to ~~make my pile of cash~~ help get things straightened out... we're gonna be fiiiiiiine.

Posted by: Devil Patrick at December 01, 2015 04:04 PM (VO5mN)

43 The fired police chief should talk.

Posted by: Steevy at December 01, 2015 04:00 PM (8HTq1)

He'll then be so distraught he'll take a twenty mile hike off of Navy Pier.

Posted by: Mikey NTH - Scapegoats and Sacrificial Lambs at the Outrage Outlet! at December 01, 2015 04:04 PM (hLRSq)

44 Now explain to me how you assholes

Because Jew vs. Black.
And because they're assholes.

Posted by: DaveA at December 01, 2015 04:04 PM (DL2i+)

45 The cop was wrong to shoo the kid 16 times, but the kid was high and out of it with a weapon...again not exactly a saint

Posted by: Nevergiveup at December 01, 2015 04:04 PM (gf8BH)

46 He's also recruited former MA governor Deval Patrick for Special Commission.

I don't even....

-
I guess Mr. Clean wasn't available but he sure could have gotten the spot out.

Posted by: The Great White Snark at December 01, 2015 04:04 PM (IWLe1)

47 And there's a weird undercurrent of violence there. I can't explain it, but walking the streets, even in pretty good areas, had my spidey-senses tingling.

Weirdest damned thing. Brother-in-law said the only violence that happens there is to people that bring it on themselves. Did not make me more comfortable in leaving my .45 at home.

Posted by: Chupacabra at December 01, 2015 04:04 PM (5npD/)

48 >>I'm not sure the criminal charges will stick, but clearly the cop made a shit judgment call. Should be easy enough to fire him, or at least reassign him to a rubber room or something.

The charges will stick if Rahm has anything to do with it. That was the part of the presser I found surprising, he made it sound as if the cop was already guilty.

Now that I think of it, also the story of Obama.

Posted by: JackStraw at December 01, 2015 04:04 PM (/tuJf)

49 39

If Obama wanted to, he could have made a big issue of this. He is after all from Chicago and well connected. He made statements on other cases like Ferguson and Baltimore

but he was silent. I guess black lives dont matter. Not to him
Posted by: ThunderB at December 01, 2015 04:03 PM (zOTsN)

Not when the situation would make a crony look bad.

Posted by: Insomniac - Pale Horse/Death 2016 at December 01, 2015 04:04 PM (kpqmD)

50 SO how soon after the Ferguson riots did this shooting take place?

I'm thinking Rahm did this to ensure the rioters didn't migrate north, and he lucked out w/the Freddie Gray death in Baltimore.

Posted by: Lizzy at December 01, 2015 04:04 PM (NOIQH)

51 Forget it Jake, it's Obamatown

Posted by: Ghost of kari at December 01, 2015 04:05 PM (FfVIs)

52 45 The cop was wrong to shoo the kid 16 times, but the kid was high and out of it with a weapon...again not exactly a saint
Posted by: Nevergiveup at December 01, 2015 04:04 PM (gf8BH)

The 16 times bothers me less then the first time.

If the cop truly feared for his life (which the video makes it very tough for the cop to make THAT case), then it would make sense that he emptied the magazine.

Instead the cop rolls up and just starts firing.

And yes, the guy was high and had a knife. But the other 20 cops on the scene seemed to have the situation under control before robodick showed up.

Posted by: Harry Paratestes at December 01, 2015 04:05 PM (AkOaV)

53 Just as long as the people protesting the police actions stay off the football field. It was embarrassing to watch the Eagles v Lions football game on Thanksgiving and watch the protesters run for more yardage than the Eagles.

Posted by: free range jihadist at December 01, 2015 04:06 PM (7v/r5)

54 I know all about the mean streets of Chicago.

One time, in my youth, I had a Coke can* thrown at me.

a horrible empty Coke can!

Posted by: Devil Patrick at December 01, 2015 04:06 PM (VO5mN)

55 When the man comes around. . .

Posted by: Lester Flaggines at December 01, 2015 04:06 PM (PLZH5)

56
9 of the 10 largest cities have mayoral term limits. The only exception is Chicago.

Boston, the 24th largest city in the US (by population) also has no term limits for mayor.

Posted by: Soothsayer the autoresponsebot at December 01, 2015 04:07 PM (sixca)

57 Jack Straw they are political twins-TFG & Deval Patrick.

Posted by: Carol at December 01, 2015 04:07 PM (sj3Ax)

58 Also, arent G17's 16+1?

What happened to the last round? Or do Chicago PD not trust themselves to carry with one in the pipe?

Posted by: Harry Paratestes at December 01, 2015 04:07 PM (AkOaV)

59 I could give a shit about Chicago. If that's what the sleazy denizens of that corrupt shithole want, then let them have it.

Chicago, to me, is just another reason why I'm glad I live in OK.

Posted by: Soona at December 01, 2015 04:08 PM (Fmupd)

60 If the protestors run onto Coors Field, they'll have to tell Peyton not to pass the ball to *them*.

Posted by: boulder terlit hobo at December 01, 2015 04:08 PM (LUvV+)

61 I'd go sit on that Blue Ribbon panel. I'd happily exonerate everybody for the payola they're going to rake in. Why? Because it wouldn't matter if Rahm et al was responsible or not, nothing will happen.

Posted by: Bigby's Thumbs Up at December 01, 2015 04:08 PM (3ZtZW)

62 A knife and closing the distance? An argument can be made for shooting.

But I've only watched the video once, and really couldn't tell if he was advancing or crossing. And you certainly don't shoot once the threat is neutralized.

Meh, no good guys.

Posted by: Chupacabra at December 01, 2015 04:09 PM (5npD/)

63 G17 is 17 + 1.

G19 is 15 + 1.

Posted by: Chupacabra at December 01, 2015 04:10 PM (5npD/)

64 Rahm et al was responsible or not, nothing will happen.
Posted by: Bigby's Thumbs Up at December 01, 2015 04:08 PM (3ZtZW)

Well, Rahms guilty of not releasing the video sooner, but he didn't pull the trigger -- the cop did.

Which is why I don't understand why you wouldn't get out in front of this. Release the video immediately and fire the cop. Put the onus on the DA to go from there if he/she wants.

Posted by: Harry Paratestes at December 01, 2015 04:10 PM (AkOaV)

65 ...again not exactly a saint

===

Didn't know sainthood was requirement now.

Posted by: Bigby's Thumbs Up at December 01, 2015 04:10 PM (3ZtZW)

66 The 16 times bothers me less then the first time.

If the cop truly feared for his life (which the video makes it very tough for the cop to make THAT case), then it would make sense that he emptied the magazine.

Instead the cop rolls up and just starts firing.

And yes, the guy was high and had a knife. But the other 20 cops on the scene seemed to have the situation under control before robodick showed up.
Posted by: Harry Paratestes at December 01, 2015 04:05 PM (AkOaV)

I am not disagreeing with you, but as I told my kids growing up...nothing good will happen to you after 12 at night and the same thing applies here...being out stoned with a weapon stagering down a street and not listening to a Cop will get ya killed..Just saying.

Posted by: Nevergiveup at December 01, 2015 04:10 PM (gf8BH)

67 twenty mile hike off of Navy Pier.

He's from Chicago and was Chief in Newark, probably not afraid of much.

Posted by: DaveA at December 01, 2015 04:10 PM (DL2i+)

68 63 G17 is 17 + 1.

G19 is 15 + 1.
Posted by: Chupacabra at December 01, 2015 04:10 PM (5npD/)

Oh, okay. Well that makes more sense. That's how you get to 16, I guess.

Posted by: Harry Paratestes at December 01, 2015 04:10 PM (AkOaV)

69 The cop was wrong to shoo the kid 16 times, but the kid was high and out of it with a weapon...again not exactly a saint

Can we please stop with the "yeah, but" stuff on this one? It was a three inch knife, not an RPG and there are plenty of non-lethal ways to bring the guy down. Shooting him at long range 16 times with no imminent threat to anyone is murder.

Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at December 01, 2015 04:11 PM (659DL)

70 Police handguns should be limited to a magazine of 8 or less. That will stop this from ever happening again.

Posted by: bergerbilder at December 01, 2015 04:11 PM (IeXP9)

71 Didn't know sainthood was requirement now.
Posted by: Bigby's Thumbs Up at December 01, 2015 04:10 PM (3ZtZW)

it's not but stupidity can get you killed

Posted by: Nevergiveup at December 01, 2015 04:11 PM (gf8BH)

72 Let's see non union Southern town releases video, indicts cop and fires him next day.

Chicago, union cops, takes a year.

Posted by: Nip Sip at December 01, 2015 04:11 PM (jJRIy)

73 http://tinyurl.com/grlv3md

Here's Boston Herald Story.

Posted by: Carol at December 01, 2015 04:12 PM (sj3Ax)

74 Like Hillary, I accept full responsibility. By that, I mean someone under me let me down and no I won't give up my taxpayer paycheck.

Posted by: Rahm Emmanuel at December 01, 2015 04:12 PM (FuBZa)

75 One shot to the head instead of 16 to the body.

Posted by: Misanthropic Humanitarian at December 01, 2015 04:12 PM (mxCgt)

76 Can we please stop with the "yeah, but" stuff on this one? It was a three inch knife, not an RPG and there are plenty of non-lethal ways to bring the guy down. Shooting him at long range 16 times with no imminent threat to anyone is murder.
Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at December 01, 2015 04:11 PM (659DL)

AND I never said it was...but as I have said very clearly being stupid high and with a weapon of any kind can and will get you killed.

Posted by: Nevergiveup at December 01, 2015 04:12 PM (gf8BH)

77 It was a three inch knife, not an RPG and there are plenty of non-lethal ways to bring the guy down. Shooting him at long range 16 times with no imminent threat to anyone is murder.

===

Wow 3 whole inches?

It can kill. If you get the cop in a bear hug. Was he in a bear hug? NO.

Oh, its fkn MURDER.

Posted by: Bigby's Thumbs Up at December 01, 2015 04:13 PM (3ZtZW)

78 I am not disagreeing with you, but as I told my kids growing up...nothing good will happen to you after 12 at night and the same thing applies here...being out stoned with a weapon stagering down a street and not listening to a Cop will get ya killed..Just saying.
Posted by: Nevergiveup at December 01, 2015 04:10 PM (gf8BH)

Yeah... but it shouldn't.

I had a friend in college who was blackout drunk acting like an idiot who threw a half full beer can at a cop trying to break up a party. Cops charged him with drunk in public and maybe some other minor stuff. Basically just made him sleep it off in the drunk tank.

I think everyone would have been outraged if the cops shot the kid. Even though, technically, he assaulted a police officer with what could be considered a deadly weapon.

That's kind of how I look at these situations. The cops have to use some judgment. Shooting someone is no joke, and should ALWAYS be the last possible resort.

Posted by: Harry Paratestes at December 01, 2015 04:13 PM (AkOaV)

79 He's also recruited former MA governor Deval Patrick for Special Commission.

Hey, what could go wrong?
Last time I heard about Mini Me, he was scamming the Boston 2024 Olympic Committee for 7 grand a day as a "consultant". Guess he found a new public sector tit to attach himself to.

Posted by: tu3031 at December 01, 2015 04:13 PM (YFFpo)

80 'Never let a good crisis go to waste.

Unless it is politically expedient to do so.'

Posted by: Garrett at December 01, 2015 04:13 PM (o5Zq3)

81 Tueller Drill.

Kid was pretty damned close with a lethal weapon.

I'd say the cop probably made the wrong choice with the first round, but a knife within 21 feet and it's very likely you're getting stabbed if he chooses to come at you.

Posted by: Chupacabra at December 01, 2015 04:13 PM (5npD/)

82
What is a Dongle?

Posted by: Soothsayer the autoresponsebot at December 01, 2015 04:14 PM (sixca)

83 I like how the article implied that we shouldn't waste time going after Rham & co. when the important work of rooting out police brutality is left unfinished.
Rham should just resign, which they know is a physical impossibility for a lib.

Posted by: Iblis at December 01, 2015 04:14 PM (9221z)

84 OK, I totally think this was murder, and as myoldhandle points out the other 20 cops on the scene managed to not murder the guy before robodick showed up.

OTOH, 16 shots and 16 hits?

This is not the police force I've come to expect.

Posted by: Bandersnatch at December 01, 2015 04:14 PM (1xUj/)

85 But I've only watched the video once, and really couldn't tell if he was advancing or crossing. And you certainly don't shoot once the threat is neutralized.

Meh, no good guys.
Posted by: Chupacabra at December 01, 2015 04:09 PM (5npD/)

The kid was not that close the cop. About a dozen other cops were already on the scene, corralling the kid. He was stumbling AWAY from the cop who shot him. And most damningly, the cop who shot him continued to unload his magazine while the kid was on the ground bleeding out.

Hard to tell from the video, but I'd say 12 of the 16 shots were fired after the kid was on the ground, clearly no threat to anyone.

Posted by: Harry Paratestes at December 01, 2015 04:15 PM (AkOaV)

86 I am not disagreeing with you, but as I told my kids growing up...nothing good will happen to you after 12 at night and the same thing applies here...being out stoned with a weapon stagering down a street and not listening to a Cop will get ya killed..Just saying.
Posted by: Nevergiveup at December 01, 2015 04:10 PM (gf8BH)

Yeah... but it shouldn't.

Shouldn't Wouldn't Couldn't?

If he was home and straight, he'd be alive today. That does NOT relieve the Cop of responsibility for his bad behavior which is probably criminal, but doing stupid things can lead to situations like this.

Posted by: Nevergiveup at December 01, 2015 04:15 PM (gf8BH)

87 The stupid voters will forget about this before the next election.

Posted by: His devine leviathanness Rahm Emmanuel at December 01, 2015 04:15 PM (vBeA5)

88 Cop was a 'roid freak, bet. Good riddance.

Not a Saint. See? Goes both ways.

Posted by: Bigby's Thumbs Up at December 01, 2015 04:15 PM (3ZtZW)

89 Oh, and none of the other dozen cops even drew their weapons, so clearly they didn't feel in danger.

Posted by: Harry Paratestes at December 01, 2015 04:15 PM (AkOaV)

90
Same with Hillary email coverup, they will wait until after election.

Posted by: Guy Mohawk at December 01, 2015 04:15 PM (ODxAs)

91 The charges will stick if Rahm has anything to do with it. That was the part of the presser I found surprising, he made it sound as if the cop was already guilty.

Hardly surprising considering the amount of violence that broke out even though the cop was arrested. An acquittal means Chicago will burn.

Posted by: Citizen Cake at December 01, 2015 04:15 PM (ppaKI)

92 And most "tactical" knives, come in at just over three inches.

That will kill you plenty dead.

Posted by: Chupacabra at December 01, 2015 04:16 PM (5npD/)

93 Deval Patrick,
Now that you were blown off Boston 24 Olympics job because we don't want them here, go back to Chicago.

Posted by: Carol at December 01, 2015 04:16 PM (sj3Ax)

94 Rahm should've had a five-point plan ready.

Posted by: Billy Jeff Clinton at December 01, 2015 04:16 PM (2WoCi)

95 SQUIRREL!

*points around wildly*

SQUIRREL!!1!

SQUIRREL!!1!`~elventy!!1!!!!!!!1!

Posted by: MSM at December 01, 2015 04:16 PM (vBeA5)

96 if he was advancing or crossing

Both, and evading.

You can either have more guys on PCP waving knives in the street or cops occasionally over-shooting a guy on PCP waving knives in the street. It's not a perfect world.

Posted by: DaveA at December 01, 2015 04:16 PM (DL2i+)

97 Also, arent G17's 16+1?

What happened to the last round? Or do Chicago PD not trust themselves to carry with one in the pipe?

That's ugly if you really need it.

Posted by: rickb223 at December 01, 2015 04:16 PM (+ZSW1)

98 These are democrats, so let's just let the democrats sort it out.

As for republicans, we can pride ourselves on knowing that politicians in our own party who have character and honesty, who root out corruption even at their own risk will be utterly destroyed by our own writers and reporters.

Because they have an accent different than ours.

That embarrasses us and other insufferable twits.

This is a good system.

Posted by: jwest at December 01, 2015 04:16 PM (Zs4uk)

99 62 A knife and closing the distance? An argument can be made for shooting.

But I've only watched the video once, and really couldn't tell if he was advancing or crossing. And you certainly don't shoot once the threat is neutralized.

Meh, no good guys.
Posted by: Chupacabra at December 01, 2015 04:09 PM (5npD/)

I watched the video several times and a couple of things occur to me.

1. McDonald was moving away from, not toward, the cops.
2. McDonald did not "lunge" toward the cops, which was the (false) statement made in the cop's report.
3. The cop closed the distance with McDonald, not the other way around.
4. None of the other cops fired their weapons, even after one cop did.

There's also the little problem of the cops going to a nearby Burger King and allegedly deleting nearly 90 minutes of their surveillance footage.

Posted by: Insomniac - Pale Horse/Death 2016 at December 01, 2015 04:17 PM (kpqmD)

100 If he was home and straight, he'd be alive today. That does NOT relieve the Cop of responsibility for his bad behavior which is probably criminal, but doing stupid things can lead to situations like this.
Posted by: Nevergiveup at December 01, 2015 04:15 PM (gf8BH)

Sure. In the same sense that when I got rear ended in my car when I was 16, it was my fault for being out driving around with a girl when I should have been at home studying.

Kind of an empty argument to make. Yes, the kid should not have been on drugs and carrying a pocket knife in public. Duh. Obviously his judgment was compromised by drugs.

But that does not mitigate or in any way excuse the SOBER cops reaction.

Posted by: Harry Paratestes at December 01, 2015 04:17 PM (AkOaV)

101 OK you're out drinking and in a bad mood becoz X the Asshole did whatever to you.

You see his car and decide in your drunken state to go slash his tires.

Cop shoots you. Well, that's cool.

Posted by: Bigby's Thumbs Up at December 01, 2015 04:17 PM (3ZtZW)

102 "What is a Dongle?"

Electronic equipment. Plugs into a computer to allow certain capabilities.

Posted by: Ricardo Kill at December 01, 2015 04:17 PM (LA7Cm)

103 Oh, and none of the other dozen cops even drew their weapons, so clearly they didn't feel in danger.
Posted by: Harry Paratestes at December 01, 2015 04:15 PM (AkOaV)

Not sure that is true...None fired yes, but I think others drew their weapons.

Look I am NOT defending the Cop...He is a bad cop and guilty of something...just saying the this shit happens when you put yourself in situations like this. That is all

Posted by: Nevergiveup at December 01, 2015 04:18 PM (gf8BH)

104 Deval Patrick was chosen after they realized their first choice, Kwame Kilpatrick, is still in prison.

Posted by: Citizen Cake at December 01, 2015 04:19 PM (ppaKI)

105 Maybe I should try to get Elton John to come play a song as a show of solidarity with the people of Chicago and Mayor Tiny Dancer?

Posted by: Secretariat of State Lurch Kerry at December 01, 2015 04:19 PM (VO5mN)

106 89 Oh, and none of the other dozen cops even drew their weapons, so clearly they didn't feel in danger.
Posted by: Harry Paratestes at December 01

When he's shooting 16 shots the other cops probably thought any more would be overkill

Posted by: Misanthropic Humanitarian at December 01, 2015 04:19 PM (mxCgt)

107 Murder rate in Chicago has been off the charts for years. What is Rahm going to do about that?

Posted by: Carol at December 01, 2015 04:19 PM (sj3Ax)

108 69
The cop was wrong to shoo the kid 16 times, but the kid was high and out of it with a weapon...again not exactly a saint

Can we please stop with the "yeah, but" stuff on this one? It was a three inch knife, not an RPG and there are plenty of non-lethal ways to bring the guy down. Shooting him at long range 16 times with no imminent threat to anyone is murder.

Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at December 01, 2015 04:11 PM (659DL)

No. 16 may have been too many times - the court will ultimately determine this.

But if the officer did legitimately fear for his safety, I don't fault the officer one bit for it. And in that instance, in addition to the instances of fleeing felon, and protection of others, deadly force was authorized. I would recommend it, in most cases, rather than restraint with subsequent death or disfigurement of the officer.

Posted by: rebel flounder at December 01, 2015 04:19 PM (3dOE/)

109 56
9 of the 10 largest cities have mayoral term limits. The only exception is Chicago.

Boston, the 24th largest city in the US (by population) also has no term limits for mayor.
Posted by: Soothsayer the autoresponsebot at December 01, 2015 04:07 PM (sixca)

Boston: almost as corrupt as Chicago!

Posted by: Ghost of kari at December 01, 2015 04:19 PM (FfVIs)

110 >>Posted by: Insomniac - Pale Horse/Death 2016 at December 01, 2015 04:17 PM (kpqmD)

Other than that, though...

Posted by: Garrett at December 01, 2015 04:19 PM (o5Zq3)

111 But if the officer did legitimately fear for his safety, I don't fault the officer one bit for it. And in that instance, in addition to the instances of fleeing felon, and protection of others, deadly force was authorized. I would recommend it, in most cases, rather than restraint with subsequent death or disfigurement of the officer.
Posted by: rebel flounder at December 01, 2015 04:19 PM (3dOE/)

...Did you watch the video?

Posted by: Harry Paratestes at December 01, 2015 04:20 PM (AkOaV)

112 82

What is a Dongle?

Posted by: Soothsayer the autoresponsebot at December 01, 2015 04:14 PM (sixca)

You want I should send you a picture?

Posted by: Anthony Wiener at December 01, 2015 04:20 PM (3dOE/)

113 Sure. In the same sense that when I got rear ended in my car when I was 16, it was my fault for being out driving around with a girl when I should have been at home studying.

Kind of an empty argument to make. Yes, the kid should not have been on drugs and carrying a pocket knife in public. Duh. Obviously his judgment was compromised by drugs.

But that does not mitigate or in any way excuse the SOBER cops reaction.
Posted by: Harry Paratestes at December 01, 2015 04:17 PM (AkOaV)

Crap not the same thing at all. Were you driving illegally? Did you disregard a police command? Did you have a weapon in the car? And not where did I say it mitagated the caps actions

Posted by: Nevergiveup at December 01, 2015 04:20 PM (gf8BH)

114 Who knows if the NYT narrative fits the actual timeline either. It was a messy election season. Rahm's major opponent was the Chicago Teachers Union head Karen Lewis and there was a lot of grief over closings. She bowed out with cancer (since survived). Then it was a 3 way with Rahm, Chuy and ?Willie? then a runoff with Rahm and Chuy.

Posted by: DaveA at December 01, 2015 04:20 PM (DL2i+)

115 I hate when I get to a thread after it's already derailed.

Posted by: Pappy O'Daniel at December 01, 2015 04:20 PM (oVJmc)

116 I'm not saying the cop is innocent, I'm merely pointing out that a guy on PCP with a 3" knife within 21' is a very big threat.

None of those facts are something to poo-poo about.

Now, you shoot to stop the threat, once he was down it became a murder case.

Posted by: Chupacabra at December 01, 2015 04:21 PM (5npD/)

117 Heh heh heh. "Dongle." Heh. Heh heh heh.

Posted by: Beavis at December 01, 2015 04:21 PM (kpqmD)

118 Even if he'd advanced on the cop, it'd still be a murder case, I meant to say.

Posted by: Chupacabra at December 01, 2015 04:21 PM (5npD/)

119 When he's shooting 16 shots the other cops probably thought any more would be overkill
Posted by: Misanthropic Humanitarian at December 01, 2015 04:19 PM (mxCgt)

I'm just saying that the cops that had obviously been dealing with the drugged up asshole for a while were not in fear for their lives, even after Officer Quickdraw showed up and started unloading his magazine.

And that's the standard for defensive, justifiable homicide -- fear for your life.

Not "well this drugged up idiot was annoying me for the 12 seconds I was on scene, so I took it upon myself to shoot him."

If you can't handle that minimal amount of stress and you don't have the situation awareness to see that everyone else on the scene seemed to think they had it under control, then you definitely should not be a cop.

Posted by: Harry Paratestes at December 01, 2015 04:22 PM (AkOaV)

120 "Did you disregard a police command?"

Because as we all know, if you disregard a police command you should be shot to death.

Posted by: Insomniac - Pale Horse/Death 2016 at December 01, 2015 04:22 PM (kpqmD)

121 So if a Republican mayor had pulled this crap, you reckon the DOJ would have the FBI up there and the US Attorney would be looking into a cover up..

"The Chairman" no get Obama DOJ involved.

Posted by: Nip Sip at December 01, 2015 04:22 PM (jJRIy)

122 " I hate when I get to a thread after it's already derailed."

"You want I should send you a picture?
Posted by: Anthony Wiener"

Why, whatever do you mean?

Posted by: Ricardo Kill at December 01, 2015 04:22 PM (LA7Cm)

123 That's the problem with 9mm. Ya gotta keep shootin' to be sure.

Posted by: Soona at December 01, 2015 04:22 PM (Fmupd)

124 BLM lost the directions to City Hall.

Posted by: subhuman taxpayer at December 01, 2015 04:22 PM (UXPjy)

125
Who's up for a Blue Ribbon Panel? We'll even supply the blue ribbons!

Posted by: Rahm Emmanuel at December 01, 2015 04:01 PM (8ZskC)

Only if youse guys pony up some cash for the union's retirement fund.

Retirement fund. Yeah. That's what it 'tis.

Posted by: International Brotherhood of Blue Ribbon Artisans Local 392 at December 01, 2015 04:23 PM (gwpf+)

126 116 I'm not saying the cop is innocent, I'm merely pointing out that a guy on PCP with a 3" knife within 21' is a very big threat.

None of those facts are something to poo-poo about.

Now, you shoot to stop the threat, once he was down it became a murder case.
Posted by: Chupacabra at December 01, 2015 04:21 PM (5npD/)

If it was such a threat, then why did the cop's partner drive their car to within 10 feet of the guy, who then stumbled AWAY from the police car before the cop opened his door and started shooting.

The cops got within 21 feet of the guy. Not the other way around. The other cops were keeping their distance and corralling him, presumably trying to use their words to deescalate and not their bullets.

Posted by: Harry Paratestes at December 01, 2015 04:23 PM (AkOaV)

127 I guess cops are like mogwai, if they're fed after midnight they get nasty. So mandatory 11:59 donut shop closing in Chicago.

Posted by: free range jihadist at December 01, 2015 04:23 PM (7v/r5)

128 A three inch knife is not a danger from twenty feet away unless the guy carrying it is Bruce Lee.

Just stop it.

Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at December 01, 2015 04:24 PM (659DL)

129 I think it is just the law of large numbers. Nothing more than that, unless you want to apply the law of large numbers to the bell curve. Assuming you understand what the bell curve says.

But math is generally underappreciated and the people who do understand math are, generally, dicks when they try to explain it to the rest of us.

But what is really annoying is when the left takes one example out of a large number and then claims that the one example proves an accusation against the whole until you try the same reasoning on one of their sacred principles and suddenly the one example is only anecdotal and not sufficient to apply to the whole.

Which leaves a rational person only one rational response which is a robust and vibrant application of a clue stick.

Posted by: Lester Flaggines at December 01, 2015 04:24 PM (PLZH5)

130 Mikey NTH,
SCOAMT & Deval Patrick are too.

Posted by: Carol at December 01, 2015 04:24 PM (sj3Ax)

131 Not quite OT

rdbrewer's comment in the sidebar about the dog shooters is dead on

Posted by: PMRich at December 01, 2015 04:24 PM (Hag+D)

132 111
But if the officer did legitimately fear for his safety, I don't fault the officer one bit for it. And in that instance, in addition to the instances of fleeing felon, and protection of others, deadly force was authorized. I would recommend it, in most cases, rather than restraint with subsequent death or disfigurement of the officer.

Posted by: rebel flounder at December 01, 2015 04:19 PM (3dOE/)

...Did you watch the video?

Posted by: Harry Paratestes at December 01, 2015 04:20 PM (AkOaV)

Yes.

Posted by: Anthony Wiener at December 01, 2015 04:24 PM (3dOE/)

133 Deval Patrick was chosen after they realized their first choice, Michael Brown, was dead.

Posted by: tu3031 at December 01, 2015 04:25 PM (YFFpo)

134 So if a Republican mayor had pulled this crap, you reckon the DOJ would have the FBI up there and the US Attorney would be looking into a cover up.

Gee, I don't know--LET'S ASK FERGUSON, MIZZOU.

Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at December 01, 2015 04:25 PM (659DL)

135 >>>> I hate when I get to a thread after it's already derailed.
Posted by: Pappy O'Daniel at December 01, 2015 04:20 PM
------
Me too. At least you missed the Miss80s Rubio apologist thread. That one was tedious

Posted by: L, Elle at December 01, 2015 04:25 PM (+sA7q)

136 Van Dyke also has a bucketload of previous excessive force complaints against him, and there was also a civil verdict against him for excessive force a while back. It seems like this guy was a known problem child.

Posted by: Insomniac - Pale Horse/Death 2016 at December 01, 2015 04:26 PM (kpqmD)

137 There is nobody connected with Obama, it seems,who was not a crook, a liar, or completely corrupt.

Hope and Change, baby!

Posted by: FenelonSpoke at December 01, 2015 04:26 PM (No/ki)

138 So, OK, there's relatively little dispute that shooty guy shot too soon and too often and ought not to have because he kind of murdered the kid.

Is the story now that Rahm kept it under wraps for 400 days? Does he get away with it by throwing the police chief under the bus?

And do we have confirmation that the cops disappeared the Burger King footage?

Because it feels like charging the shooty cop and firing the coverup chief doesn't get close to the root causes.

Posted by: Bandersnatch at December 01, 2015 04:26 PM (1xUj/)

139 Nevergiveup, the cops should not be emptying an entire magazine into some high dude. You can admit that without transmogrifying into a Bernie Sanders-interrupting BLM super protester.

There were more than ten other officers present. Also, high on what?

Posted by: Ghost of kari at December 01, 2015 04:26 PM (FfVIs)

140 How do you figure it's not, Circa?

You don't think a guy can stab you in the liver with a 3" knife before you can draw a gun and get a CNS hit with a gun?

Posted by: Chupacabra at December 01, 2015 04:26 PM (5npD/)

141
A three inch knife is not a danger from twenty feet away unless the guy carrying it is Bruce Lee.

Just stop it.

Posted by: Circa

I disagree quite strongly.

Posted by: Moderate Salami, weeping for our dead Republic at December 01, 2015 04:26 PM (/Ho8c)

142 Crap not the same thing at all. Were you driving illegally? Did you disregard a police command? Did you have a weapon in the car? And not where did I say it mitagated the caps actions
Posted by: Nevergiveup at December 01, 2015 04:20 PM (gf8BH)

No, but it's the same idea. And there's some truth in it. As my dad said at the time, "every time you get behind the wheel, you're risking getting in to an accident, regardless of whose fault it is."

So yes, if the kid stayed at home to do his PCP, or didn't do PCP, or have never bought a pocket knife, or ... any number of things, that situation would not have existed.

That's on the kid -- absolutely.

But the sober adult in the room (the cop) who, lets not forget, is not some scared homeowner, but someone who is hired to handle these "stressful" situations and to peacefully de-escalate them, pulls up on the scene and within a matter of seconds unloads on the kid.

So the kid used bad judgment every step of the way. Agreed.

But the cop, who is supposed to be the mature, adult, representative of the state to make sure the citizens (including this PCP'ed up kid) stay safe was the one who acted the least responsibly.

Posted by: Harry Paratestes at December 01, 2015 04:26 PM (AkOaV)

143 And STILL IS all of those things, of course.

Posted by: FenelonSpoke at December 01, 2015 04:26 PM (No/ki)

144 That kid must have looked like meatloaf after taking 16 police rounds. Not a good night to be a CSI.

Posted by: bergerbilder at December 01, 2015 04:27 PM (IeXP9)

145 "Did you disregard a police command?"

Because as we all know, if you disregard a police command you should be shot to death.
Posted by: Insomniac - Pale Horse/Death 2016 at December 01, 2015 04:22 PM (kpqmD)

Well when you find where I said that ok, but since I never did...

Posted by: Nevergiveup at December 01, 2015 04:27 PM (gf8BH)

146
Because it feels like charging the shooty cop and firing the coverup chief doesn't get close to the root causes.
Posted by: Bandersnatch at December 01, 2015 04:26 PM (1xUj/

Because we all know if you are the Lib in charge, shit rolls down hill

Posted by: Misanthropic Humanitarian at December 01, 2015 04:27 PM (mxCgt)

147 Dicaprio and the bear.

Meh, not too graphic or even realistic.

http://tinyurl.com/p57uzc4

Posted by: RWC - Team BOHICA at December 01, 2015 04:28 PM (fWAjv)

148 Why couldn't the cop just shoot the knife out of the perp's hand? I saw it done in Blazing Saddles.

Posted by: Mr. Low Information Voter at December 01, 2015 04:28 PM (8ZskC)

149 A three inch knife is not a danger from twenty feet away unless the guy carrying it is Bruce Lee.

Just stop it.

Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at December 01, 2015 04:24 PM (659DL)

Based on what? Your belief in the stopping power and accuracy of the gunner?

Posted by: ReactionaryMonster at December 01, 2015 04:28 PM (0NdlF)

150 Late to the thread.

So everyone is up in arms over a bad cop in Chicago. So did the NYT address all the black on black gun murder that has been occurring in Chicago?

Posted by: Anna Puma at December 01, 2015 04:28 PM (Es5pa)

151 128
A three inch knife is not a danger from twenty feet away unless the guy carrying it is Bruce Lee.

Just stop it.

Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at December 01, 2015 04:24 PM (659DL)

Silly infidel.

Posted by: Zombie Muhammed Atta at December 01, 2015 04:29 PM (3dOE/)

152 You don't think a guy can stab you in the liver with a 3" knife before you can draw a gun and get a CNS hit with a gun?

There is quite vivid context here. Don't ignore it to make dubious points.

Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at December 01, 2015 04:29 PM (659DL)

153 Fascinating, isn't it?

I'd suggest a FOI request to the DOJ to find out what they knew about this and when, whether the Omerta Administration helped out their buddy Rahm by keeping this one quiet.

But given DOJ's position on any potentially damaging FOI request you can expect to get ignored.

Posted by: JEM at December 01, 2015 04:29 PM (o+SC1)

154 So the kid used bad judgment every step of the way. Agreed.

But the cop, who is supposed to be the mature, adult, representative of the state to make sure the citizens (including this PCP'ed up kid) stay safe was the one who acted the least responsibly.
Posted by: Harry Paratestes at December 01, 2015 04:26 PM (AkOaV)

Yeah so where did I say anything different? I never absolved the Cop of anything...although I think first degree murder is a stretch.

Posted by: Nevergiveup at December 01, 2015 04:29 PM (gf8BH)

155 Mmmmm. Fresh eyes.

Posted by: Homer Simpson at December 01, 2015 04:29 PM (FkBIv)

156 of previous excessive force complaints against him,

Less than 2/year. IDK what the standard is or the Chicago standard but I bet if you don't get over 1 a year you're not doing the job.

Posted by: DaveA at December 01, 2015 04:29 PM (DL2i+)

157 Me too. At least you missed the Miss80s Rubio apologist thread. That one was tedious
Posted by: L, Elle at December 01, 2015 04:25 PM (+sA7q)

The little buck tooth Cuban is tedious, let alone Miss80s

Posted by: Misanthropic Humanitarian at December 01, 2015 04:29 PM (mxCgt)

158 Yes.
Posted by: Anthony Wiener at December 01, 2015 04:24 PM (3dOE/)

Okay, then you know the cop had no reason to be in fear for his life and if he were a normal carry holder who used his weapon in such a way, he would have been thrown in jail a year ago.

Posted by: Harry Paratestes at December 01, 2015 04:30 PM (AkOaV)

159 "Meh, not too graphic or even realistic. "

Yeah, not what I was expecting from all the talk.

Posted by: Ricardo Kill at December 01, 2015 04:30 PM (LA7Cm)

160 A three inch knife is not a danger from twenty feet away unless the guy carrying it is Bruce Lee.

Just stop it.

Posted by: Circa

Tueller Drill. Sorry, but he is.

Posted by: rickb223 at December 01, 2015 04:30 PM (+ZSW1)

161 has anyone pointed out the obvious solution to this problem?

we need stronger gun control laws!

Posted by: Baracky the Dimwitted at December 01, 2015 04:30 PM (7+yyM)

162 Yeah so where did I say anything different? I never absolved the Cop of anything...although I think first degree murder is a stretch.
Posted by: Nevergiveup at December 01, 2015 04:29 PM (gf8BH)

I don't know. I'm just saying if you take the kid out of the equation, the cop did everything wrong and if it were you or me, we'd already be in jail for murder.

Posted by: Harry Paratestes at December 01, 2015 04:31 PM (AkOaV)

163 If I understand my detractors correctly, anyone carrying a knife in any situation should be considered a grave danger to an armed police officer from any distance.

Take that to its logical extreme, folks, and you wind up in a very bad place.

Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at December 01, 2015 04:31 PM (659DL)

164 A three inch knife is not a danger from twenty feet away unless the guy carrying it is Bruce Lee.

====

Angel Dust turns you into Bruce Lee. Its why its so popular in all the kwoons I ever attended.

Posted by: Bigby's Thumbs Up at December 01, 2015 04:31 PM (3ZtZW)

165
and now I want some chicken McNuggets with sweet and sour sauce...

Posted by: Soothsayer the autoresponsebot at December 01, 2015 04:31 PM (sixca)

166 147 Dicaprio and the bear.

Meh, not too graphic or even realistic.

http://tinyurl.com/p57uzc4
Posted by: RWC - Team BOHICA at December 01, 2015 04:28 PM (fWAjv)

The high squeaky voice shouting, "Feel THAT? Huh? You feel THAT?" was creepy, though.

Posted by: Just Some Guy at December 01, 2015 04:31 PM (vgIRn)

167 153 Fascinating, isn't it?

I'd suggest a FOI request to the DOJ to find out what they knew about this and when, whether the Omerta Administration helped out their buddy Rahm by keeping this one quiet.

But given DOJ's position on any potentially damaging FOI request you can expect to get ignored.
Posted by: JEM at December 01, 2015 04:29 PM (o+SC1

Unicorns and Pixy dust

Posted by: Misanthropic Humanitarian at December 01, 2015 04:32 PM (mxCgt)

168 Not a good night to be a CSI.

Looks like someone became..
*shades on*
... holier-than-thou.

YEAAARGHHH

Posted by: Horatio Caine at December 01, 2015 04:32 PM (2WoCi)

169 On a less serious note but more personally satisfying, squeaked over the 50K line to win again NaNoWriMo.

Now to go back through the word salad to see if there is real story buried in the verbiage.

Posted by: Anna Puma at December 01, 2015 04:32 PM (Es5pa)

170 So everyone is up in arms over a bad cop in Chicago.

Nah, I think we are supposed to be outraged that a Chicago mayor suppressed the release of video in a police shooting for fear it would hurt his re-election when what it actually did was produce pretrial publicity that would prejudice the case.

If the mayor had stayed out of it the judicial system would have probably worked. Instead the mayor tried to throw his mayoral privilege around for political reasons.

and I'm guessing we should be outraged at a crooked politician would try such a thing.

Posted by: Lester Flaggines at December 01, 2015 04:32 PM (PLZH5)

171 I'm just saying if you take the kid out of the equation, the cop did everything wrong and if it were you or me, we'd already be in jail for murder.
Posted by: Harry Paratestes at December 01, 2015 04:31 PM (AkOaV)

A) you can't take the kid out of the equation

B) this is the mean streets of Chicago with a huge murder rate

Again not absolving the Cop or ANYTHING, but these things don't occur in a vaccum

Posted by: Nevergiveup at December 01, 2015 04:33 PM (gf8BH)

172 Has there been any discussion of backlash yet? You know, backlash. Every crisis has backlash and mean-spirited right-wingers.

Posted by: Fritz at December 01, 2015 04:33 PM (3tjn4)

173 last time i looked, anyone with a knife in their hand was a deadly threat at 20 feet, especially if your weapon wasn't in your hands already.

Posted by: redc1c4 at December 01, 2015 04:33 PM (7+yyM)

174 163 If I understand my detractors correctly, anyone carrying a knife in any situation should be considered a grave danger to an armed police officer from any distance.

Take that to its logical extreme, folks, and you wind up in a very bad place.
Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at December 01, 2015 04:31 PM (659DL)

That's how cops are currently trained, yes. And I think it's a problem. The 21 foot rule is not something that was made up here, that's what they teach cops.

And yes, there have been several situations in the news in the last year or so of suicidal people with knives who the cops show up to "save" but end up killing.

Cops really should have the same standards 100% as conceal carry holders or anyone else when it comes to self defense. And unless someone is brandishing a knife and charging you (and/or saying "IM GOING TO KILL YOU!" or something to signify his intent) you can't just shoot everyone with a knife in his hand.

Posted by: Harry Paratestes at December 01, 2015 04:34 PM (AkOaV)

175
I don't know. I'm just saying if you take the kid out of the equation, the cop did everything wrong and if it were you or me, we'd already be in jail for murder.
Posted by: Harry Paratestes at December 01, 2015 04:31 PM (AkOaV

if you take the kid out of the equation the cop never unholsters his side arm

Posted by: Misanthropic Humanitarian at December 01, 2015 04:34 PM (mxCgt)

176 My take on the original angle of Ace's post is this:

The majority of the voters of Chicago richly deserve their city government.

Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at December 01, 2015 04:34 PM (659DL)

177 If I understand my detractors correctly, anyone carrying a knife in any situation should be considered a grave danger to an armed police officer from any distance.

Take that to its logical extreme, folks, and you wind up in a very bad place.

21 feet. They can close and cut before he can draw.
Tueller Drill. Been proven too many times. Bing it.

Posted by: rickb223 at December 01, 2015 04:34 PM (+ZSW1)

178 tu3031,
I believe Patrick was "working" or going to be at Bain Capital. I might be wrong.

Posted by: Carol at December 01, 2015 04:35 PM (sj3Ax)

179 last time i looked, anyone with a knife in their hand was a deadly threat at 20 feet, especially if your weapon wasn't in your hands already.
Posted by: redc1c4 at December 01, 2015 04:33 PM (7+yyM)

Looks like one of the 10+ officers did have his weapon in his hands already. Looks like the knife-carrier wasn't able to close the gap in the time it takes to fire 16 rounds.

This is not the hill to stand and fire 16 rounds from.

Posted by: Ghost of kari at December 01, 2015 04:36 PM (FfVIs)

180 So who's the next Daley in line to be mayor of Chicago?

Posted by: Anna Puma at December 01, 2015 04:36 PM (Es5pa)

181 158
Yes.

Posted by: Anthony Wiener at December 01, 2015 04:24 PM (3dOE/)

Okay, then you know the cop had no reason to be in fear for his life and if he were a normal carry holder who used his weapon in such a way, he would have been thrown in jail a year ago.

Posted by: Harry Paratestes at December 01, 2015 04:30 PM (AkOaV)

Perhaps. But cops are also allowed a bit of leeway with fleeing felons as well.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fleeing_felon_rule

Also, note that I was merely allowing that he could have feared for his life. I would have in that situation. You probably would have too, if you were to be honest.

I am in no way advocating for the right of police to willy-nilly gun down people, because they are trigger happy. Nor am I arguing that charging the officer is inappropriate - manslaughter at best, though.

Posted by: rebel flounder at December 01, 2015 04:36 PM (3dOE/)

182 Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at December 01, 2015 04:31 PM (659DL)

Not necessarily but sounds like you might benefit from one of those training scenarios that a couple of black reverends volunteered to undergo. They ended up shooting a couple of unarmed actors.

Posted by: Max Rockatansky at December 01, 2015 04:37 PM (+Q9b4)

183 Posted by: Anna Puma at December 01, 2015 04:32 PM (Es5pa)

Congrats Anna!

Posted by: Hrothgar at December 01, 2015 04:37 PM (ftVQq)

184 although I think first degree murder is a stretch.

That's probably the point. Seriously overcharge, fail to get a conviction, shrug shoulders.

Posted by: Snoodling World Champion 1997 at December 01, 2015 04:37 PM (k9qR4)

185 That's how cops are currently trained, yes. And I think it's a problem. The 21 foot rule is not something that was made up here, that's what they teach cops.

Sgt. Dennis Tueller, Salt Lake City PD

Subject can close 21 feet in 1.5 seconds.

Wiki

Posted by: rickb223 at December 01, 2015 04:37 PM (+ZSW1)

186 21 feet. They can close and cut before he can draw.
Tueller Drill. Been proven too many times. Bing it.

And at what point in this episode was this druggie closing and cutting?

How many other officers did not draw? I thought the Michael Brown shooting was entirely justified. This one? Not a chance.

Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at December 01, 2015 04:37 PM (659DL)

187 A) you can't take the kid out of the equation

B) this is the mean streets of Chicago with a huge murder rate

Again not absolving the Cop or ANYTHING, but these things don't occur in a vaccum
Posted by: Nevergiveup at December 01, 2015 04:33 PM (gf8BH)

Why do we not hold cops to a higher standard then that? We give them exclusive monopoly use on force on the streets. They abuse it regularly. They should never be the ones escalating the violence.

If you're the one who escalated the violence and you aren't a cop, you lose the ability to claim self defense if the guy ends up dead. There's a reason for that. You don't get to show up somewhere, stab someone in the stomach with a knife, then when he grabs the knife from you and comes at you, shoot him and claim self defense.

And that's the type of scenario we routinely excuse cops for.

This cop made this situation way worse. From the way he and his partner pulled on to the scene, to the way he approached the kid, to the way he shot the kid, to the way he (and presumably every other cop on the scene) lied in his report, and to the way the video at BK went missing.

Posted by: Harry Paratestes at December 01, 2015 04:37 PM (AkOaV)

188 21 feet. They can close and cut before he can draw.
Tueller Drill. Been proven too many times. Bing it.
Posted by: rickb223 at December 01, 2015 04:34 PM (+ZSW1)

--------------------

People in doubt of this need to measure out 21 feet. It's a very short distance.

Posted by: Soona at December 01, 2015 04:37 PM (Fmupd)

189 Compare and contrast with Bernie Goetz.

Posted by: bergerbilder at December 01, 2015 04:38 PM (IeXP9)

190 I don't know. I'm just saying if you take the kid out of the equation,>>>

That's what I did.

Posted by: The Cop at December 01, 2015 04:38 PM (XtAzU)

191 OT -

Who speaks Japanese?

Ichiban Japanese Steakhouse. Is this pronounced:

A) Icky Bon

B) Itchy Bon

Someday, you're going to need to know this.

Posted by: jwest at December 01, 2015 04:38 PM (Zs4uk)

192 If I understand my detractors correctly, anyone carrying a knife in any
situation should be considered a grave danger to an armed police officer
from any distance.

Take that to its logical extreme, folks, and you wind up in a very bad place.

No, not from any distance. But 21 feet is close enough for a person with a knife to be a mortal danger.

That said, I think Wyatt Earp overreacted a bit in this case.

Posted by: Moderate Salami, weeping for our dead Republic at December 01, 2015 04:38 PM (/Ho8c)

193 173
last time i looked, anyone with a knife in their hand was a deadly
threat at 20 feet, especially if your weapon wasn't in your hands
already.

Posted by: redc1c4 at December 01, 2015 04:33 PM (7+yyM)

There is some truth to that, BUT in this situation there were like ten other cops watching this go down. He runs at anyone, he's dead.

I am sorry, this cop is going to jail.

Posted by: Nip Sip at December 01, 2015 04:38 PM (jJRIy)

194 180 So who's the next Daley in line to be mayor of Chicago?
Posted by: Anna Puma at December 01, 2015 04:36 PM (Es5pa

Has to be a bastard child out there somewhere to take on the Daley name. But instead they'll end up with a Washington.

Posted by: Misanthropic Humanitarian at December 01, 2015 04:39 PM (mxCgt)

195 The trick to get the police chief to talk, is to get BLM to picket his house, not the shopping district. Put pressure on the chief and see what happens. Being Chicago, they have probably covered that base

Posted by: Picric at December 01, 2015 04:39 PM (QnQ+g)

196 Subject can close 21 feet in 1.5 seconds.

Wiki
Posted by: rickb223 at December 01, 2015 04:37 PM (+ZSW1)

Yes, someone could conceivably do so. And that can be used to justify self defensive shooting if an aggressive person with a knife is coming at you and is around 21 feet away.

But when someone out of their mind on drugs stumbling down the street has a pocket knife, the "21 ft rule" should not be where the cops training takes them.

Posted by: Harry Paratestes at December 01, 2015 04:39 PM (AkOaV)

197 163
If I understand my detractors correctly, anyone carrying a knife in any situation should be considered a grave danger to an armed police officer from any distance.

Take that to its logical extreme, folks, and you wind up in a very bad place.

Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at December 01, 2015 04:31 PM (659DL)

Depends: Are you obviously intoxicated? Appear to be potentially mentally ill? Wielding it? Belligerent? Ignoring commands to drop the weapon on contact with the police?

Posted by: rebel flounder at December 01, 2015 04:39 PM (3dOE/)

198 Someday, you're going to need to know this.

Posted by: jwest[/i[

I thought it was more like:

Eee'-cheee-bon

Posted by: Moderate Salami, weeping for our dead Republic at December 01, 2015 04:39 PM (/Ho8c)

199 Oh God, the Barrel...

Posted by: Moderate Salami, weeping for our dead Republic at December 01, 2015 04:40 PM (/Ho8c)

200 BHO should run for Chicago mayor.

Posted by: Carol at December 01, 2015 04:40 PM (sj3Ax)

201 A "task force" in Chicago? Are they going to try and see why Blacks are killing Blacks in enormous numbers? I didn't think so...

Posted by: donna at December 01, 2015 04:40 PM (/dSsq)

202 take the kid out

Almost military age male with lethal weapon whose only picture is apparently his yearbook gown.

Posted by: DaveA at December 01, 2015 04:40 PM (DL2i+)

203 No, not from any distance. But 21 feet is close enough for a person with a knife to be a mortal danger.

That said, I think Wyatt Earp overreacted a bit in this case.
Posted by: Moderate Salami, weeping for our dead Republic at December 01, 2015 04:38 PM (/Ho8c)

The cop put himself within 21 feet of the guy with a knife. Not the other way around.

Posted by: Harry Paratestes at December 01, 2015 04:40 PM (AkOaV)

204 People in doubt of this need to measure out 21 feet. It's a very short distance.

7 yards.

Posted by: rickb223 at December 01, 2015 04:40 PM (+ZSW1)

205 People in doubt of this need to measure out 21 feet.

OK. The 8-year-old with the knife at 21 feet. The 85 year-old grandmother at 21 feet. These hard and fast rules free of context are exactly what we count on cops NOT to have.

Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at December 01, 2015 04:40 PM (659DL)

206 Nobody killed in Benghazi was black.

But, seeing as Preznint Barky and the Hildebeast were involved, the NYT gave 'em a pass.

Posted by: Hank at December 01, 2015 04:40 PM (Bcz8E)

207 This cop made this situation way worse. From the way he and his partner pulled on to the scene, to the way he approached the kid, to the way he shot the kid, to the way he (and presumably every other cop on the scene) lied in his report, and to the way the video at BK went missing.
Posted by: Harry Paratestes at December 01, 2015 04:37 PM (AkOaV)

This is the salient point. The shootings of Michael Brown was a defensible use of force. This is murky at best. No need to split hairs, prosecute the bastard.

Posted by: Ghost of kari at December 01, 2015 04:40 PM (FfVIs)

208 >>>although I think first degree murder is a stretch.

of course it is. it's called overcharging, and reluctant to prosecute DA's do it on purpose in cases like this in order to lose.

Posted by: x at December 01, 2015 04:40 PM (57fhp)

209 Tueller Drill. Sorry, but he is.

The 21 foot rule is for an officer with a holstered weapon. If the weapon is out and you're on the other side of a car door you can afford to wait until the guy with the knife makes an aggressive move.

Posted by: bonhomme at December 01, 2015 04:40 PM (jhqr1)

210 and I'm guessing we should be outraged at a crooked politician would try such a thing.
Posted by: Lester Flaggines at December 01, 2015 04:32 PM (PLZH5)

Nah. Just outraged that he (Rahm) doled out $5 million in hush money to a mother and sister that had nothing to to do with the deranged son/brother for 14 years.

Posted by: Golfman - Xenophobe Extrodinaire at December 01, 2015 04:40 PM (48QDY)

211
Depends: Are you obviously intoxicated? Appear to be potentially mentally ill? Wielding it? Belligerent? Ignoring commands to drop the weapon on contact with the police?
Posted by: rebel flounder at December 01, 2015 04:39 PM (3dOE/)

Right, all of that should be taken in to account. And yet it wasn't here, and as far as I can tell, is not taken in to account when training these mall ninjas on how to deal with intoxicated kids.

Posted by: Harry Paratestes at December 01, 2015 04:40 PM (AkOaV)

212 I had a friend in college who was blackout drunk acting like an idiot who threw a half full beer can at a cop trying to break up a party.

I often have concerns about people who are mentally ill as well...including people attempting suicide by cop. Some the cops probably can't avoid shooting, but if they can I would prefer that they did.

Posted by: Lea at December 01, 2015 04:41 PM (lIU4e)

213 People in doubt of this need to measure out 21 feet. It's a very short distance.

Posted by: Soona at December 01, 2015 04:37 PM (Fmupd)

"Give me ~~three~~ eight steps mister, ~~three~~ eight steps towards the door..."

Posted by: L. Skynyrd at December 01, 2015 04:41 PM (ftVQq)

214 B) this is the mean streets of Chicago with a huge murder rate

If I were in Chicago I'd a] want any drug or drink I could get my hands in order to deal with it, and b] would want a knife, minimum, and much larger.

Posted by: Bigby's Thumbs Up at December 01, 2015 04:41 PM (3ZtZW)

215 has anyone pointed out the obvious solution to this problem?

we need stronger gun control laws!
Posted by: Baracky the Dimwitted

Carbon tax.

Posted by: Bertram Cabot Jr. at December 01, 2015 04:41 PM (FkBIv)

216 jwest, it's eechee bon. It means number one

Posted by: Old Blue at December 01, 2015 04:41 PM (9iR5/)

217 Stop calling him a kid! He was 18 year old.

Posted by: Bear With a Wang! at December 01, 2015 04:41 PM (iQIUe)

218 I looked at the dashcam footage; I could see the cop make a case for shooting the guy. The perp (being chased for breaking into cars, threatening someone with his knife, and slashing a cop car's tires and smashing its windscreen) is dancing down the middle of Pulaski Road at 10 pm toward about 4 cops with their weapons drawn, and to me at least looks to juke slightly to the shooter before getting popped. Cop's about 15 feet away.

Emptying the mag into the guy after he's on the ground is what makes this the big deal. Heap bad PR.

That, and Tiny Dancer sitting on the video until he's safely re-elected.

Posted by: Sort-of-Mad Max at December 01, 2015 04:41 PM (DLu2s)

219 Thanks Hrothgar.

As G-d is my witness, I didn't know a salami could skate around the Barrel.

Posted by: Anna Puma at December 01, 2015 04:41 PM (Es5pa)

220 Yeah it's eechee-BON

Posted by: Ghost of kari at December 01, 2015 04:42 PM (FfVIs)

221 Did he yell "Surprise"?

Posted by: CSMBigBird at December 01, 2015 04:42 PM (jsWA8)

222 Oh God, the Barrel...

This is bullshit.

There's some sort of newish fix that keeps you from getting embarreled if you forget one close tag. I think two still gets you there.

Close tags in the nick are also bullshit.

People should have to post naked and face the barrel. This technology will not turn out to be our friend in the end.

Posted by: Bandersnatch at December 01, 2015 04:42 PM (1xUj/)

223 fail to get a conviction, shrug shoulders.

Not going to be much fun rioting in February in Chicago.

Posted by: DaveA at December 01, 2015 04:42 PM (DL2i+)

224 kids armed with knives in Israel or Merced do very bad things

Posted by: ThunderB at December 01, 2015 04:42 PM (zOTsN)

225 OK. The 8-year-old with the knife at 21 feet. The 85 year-old grandmother at 21 feet. These hard and fast rules free of context are exactly what we count on cops NOT to have.
Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at December 01, 2015 04:40 PM (659DL)

Exactly my point. Every situation is different.

We, as non-LEOs, are expected to make that distinction if we are to use deadly force, and I expect AT THE VERY LEAST for the "professionals" to be able to make the same distinction I would have to make.

Posted by: Harry Paratestes at December 01, 2015 04:42 PM (AkOaV)

226 "I thought it was more like:

Eee'-cheee-bon"

We'll add that to the list as C).

Posted by: jwest at December 01, 2015 04:43 PM (Zs4uk)

227 A three inch knife is not a danger from twenty feet away unless the guy carrying it is Bruce Lee.

I'm tempted to cite Vegetius on the subject, but I strongly suspect that he meant a wound three fingers WIDE rather than deep was sufficient to kill a man, since that makes more sense in his own context.

As for the twenty feet, others have pointed out that the rule of thumb taught in self-defense classes is anything 21 feet or closer is an imminent threat.

Posted by: Grey Fox at December 01, 2015 04:43 PM (bZ7mE)

228 I believe Patrick was "working" or going to be at Bain Capital. I might be wrong.

Sounds like it didn't work out. Just hope he got his mandatory 6 figure parachute like at Coca Cola and Ameriquest.
Like they said in Ghostbusters, "You'll hate the private sector! They expect results!"

Posted by: tu3031 at December 01, 2015 04:43 PM (YFFpo)

229 Whoops! Now I'm reading that he was 17 and still in high school. So, how come we see the cap and gown photo ad nauseum?

Posted by: Bear With a Wang! at December 01, 2015 04:43 PM (iQIUe)

230 The Democrats I know in Chicago are calling for everyone's head but Emanuel's. Alfred E. Neumann reporting and discussion.

Posted by: pointsnfigures at December 01, 2015 04:43 PM (hSpC/)

231 Forget my capitalizing bon, you got it right in 226

Posted by: Ghost of kari at December 01, 2015 04:44 PM (FfVIs)

232 This cop made this situation way worse. From the way he and his partner pulled on to the scene, to the way he approached the kid, to the way he shot the kid, to the way he (and presumably every other cop on the scene) lied in his report, and to the way the video at BK went missing.
Posted by: Harry Paratestes at December 01, 2015 04:37 PM (AkOaV)

You show no outrage about the cover up yet you're all upset about this cop. He fucked up. I know you're a legal beagle. Its about time you put yourself in the shoes of the other guy.

He's facing 1st degree murder charges which probably won't be plea bargained down. And he will be convicted.

Yet the corrupt mayor and the other corrupt players in this city remain in place.

Posted by: Misanthropic Humanitarian at December 01, 2015 04:44 PM (mxCgt)

233 I represent police for a living. I saw the video. In my opinion, Van Dyke's done. The Union would file a grievance to protect his job if by a miracle he's acquitted, but realistically he's in his defense attorney's hands now and he's going to jail.

The suspect was shot apparently while brandishing a knife a decent distance from the officer. The officer COULD argue that the suspect could close the distance on him quickly (meaning, a knife wielding suspect can close the gap on an officer very quickly before he raises his gun, so usually shooting anyone over a distance of 21 to 25 feet is lookin' like murder), but here, the suspect was not running or even pointing in the direction of the officers or other bystanders. That is what makes this murder. There was no reason to shoot him at that time, and certainly no reason to shoot him 16 times afterward. Ugly. And that's why he prosecuted for 1st Degree murder.

Posted by: Saltydonnie at December 01, 2015 04:44 PM (i6shs)

234 Emptying the mag into the guy after he's on the ground is what makes this the big deal. Heap bad PR.

Posted by: Sort-of-Mad Max at December 01, 2015 04:41 PM (DLu2s)

At least they went into the guy. New York cops empty their mags at perps 10 feet away and totally miss, taking out innocent by-standers all over the place.

Posted by: ThePrimordialOrderedPair at December 01, 2015 04:44 PM (zc3Db)

235 Tu3031,
Patrick is a corrupt pol & belongs in Chicago.

Posted by: Carol at December 01, 2015 04:44 PM (sj3Ax)

236 People should have to post naked and face the barrel. This technology will not turn out to be our friend in the end.

Posted by: Bandersnatch at December 01, 2015 04:42 PM (1xUj/)

Do you have a steel spike installed on your driving wheel?

Posted by: ReactionaryMonster at December 01, 2015 04:44 PM (0NdlF)

237 Wielding it? Belligerent? Ignoring commands to drop the weapon on contact with the police?

All of the above for quite a while.
The other videos go on longer.

Posted by: DaveA at December 01, 2015 04:44 PM (DL2i+)

238 not saying you should unload on him on the ground

but kids in Israel and in Merced have done very bad things with knives, even when faced with men guns

Posted by: ThunderB at December 01, 2015 04:45 PM (zOTsN)

239 Whoops! Now I'm reading that he was 17 and still in high school. So, how come we see the cap and gown photo ad nauseum?

Posted by: Bear With a Wang! at December 01, 2015 04:43 PM (iQIUe)

No choirboy photos yet?

Posted by: Hrothgar at December 01, 2015 04:45 PM (ftVQq)

240 So, how come we see the cap and gown photo ad nauseum?

Grade school graduation.

Plus, it's become kinda a tradition if a hoodie gets croaked by the cops. If a graduation picture didn't exist, either his parent's lawyer or the press would Photoshop one up.

Posted by: Sort-of-Mad Max at December 01, 2015 04:46 PM (DLu2s)

241
I'm looking for his DOB. I see the year - 1997 but no month or day. Why?

Posted by: Bear With a Wang! at December 01, 2015 04:46 PM (iQIUe)

242 You show no outrage about the cover up yet you're all upset about this cop.

OK, the presence of the coverup makes it a justified shooting.

Happy?

Down this path MSNBC lies.

Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at December 01, 2015 04:46 PM (659DL)

243 It looks really bad to be defending this cop, is all me and that fuzzy ballsack are trying to say. It's not worth the effort you're taking to bolster your semantic dialectical legal analysis score. Yes, it's bad to do drugs and run around with a knife. The context of the shooting makes it far from defensible legally, much less casually.

Posted by: Ghost of kari at December 01, 2015 04:46 PM (FfVIs)

244 >>>Emptying the mag into the guy after he's on the ground is what makes this the big deal. Heap bad PR

^^This^^

Posted by: Misanthropic Humanitarian at December 01, 2015 04:46 PM (mxCgt)

245 You show no outrage about the cover up yet you're all upset about this cop. He fucked up. I know you're a legal beagle. Its about time you put yourself in the shoes of the other guy.
Posted by: Misanthropic Humanitarian at December 01, 2015 04:44 PM (mxCgt)

Oh, well I'm not really outraged at anything about this situation other than the people defending the cop.

Yeah, Rahm is corrupt. Chicago is corrupt. The kid fucked up, and the cop fucked up.

The reason I'm getting agitated is that there are people that think the cop didn't do anything wrong.

I get just as annoyed at the people who say "He DINDUNUFFIN, HE WAS JUST STROLLING DOWN THE STREET"

Posted by: Harry Paratestes at December 01, 2015 04:47 PM (AkOaV)

246 The fog of war. Anybody not think that Chicago police aren't fighting what amounts to a purposeful guerrilla war is not really thinking about this. Shit like this is bound to happen in that type of environment. An environment perpetuated by the democrat party cabal.

Posted by: Soona at December 01, 2015 04:47 PM (Fmupd)

247 I doubt this guy's firing will be enough. One sacrifice. Ole nub finger Rhamabamabangbang is going to be hurting for cops like Baltimore.

I am mostly angry reading of the scrubbing the US media has done to try to eradicate the "pockets" of mooslems celebrating on US soil post 9/11. Some with front row seats across the Hudson, waiting, then celebrating (on an Anderson Cooper show). NY Post and others tried to scrub references to Paterson, NJ, but too many witnesses, including a lady calling into Howard Stern who claimed "riots" and/or so many people in streets you could not drive. Yet Chris Christie denies the story. Mayor Rudy G., at least, admits to "pockets" of celebrations aka rooftop parties and even "tailgating" type parties. THIS IS BS!!! /rant over

Posted by: ChristyBlinky, aging supermodel Redneck Queen at December 01, 2015 04:47 PM (Mopd7)

248 If you look at the mugs on Emanuel, Chief of Police, Rezko, Blago, etc. they are right out of Central Casting filed under "Sleazebag Douches".

Posted by: Cheri at December 01, 2015 04:47 PM (oiNtH)

249 Deval Patrick = new Jesse Jackson, aiming to get paid on behalf of the black community when a cracker shoots a brother

Posted by: East Bay Jay at December 01, 2015 04:47 PM (PvCxa)

250
Posted by: Misanthropic Humanitarian at December 01, 2015 04:44 PM (mxCgt)

But also -- that kind of "fuck up" would land you or me in jail for life. Having a deadly weapon like a firearm or a car or a chainsaw is a big responsibility. You don't get any do-evers.

Posted by: Harry Paratestes at December 01, 2015 04:47 PM (AkOaV)

251 A three inch knife is not a danger from twenty feet away unless the guy carrying it is Bruce Lee.

Just stop it.

Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at December 01, 2015 04:24 PM

see also: Tueller drill

Posted by: AltonJackson at December 01, 2015 04:47 PM (ZQfW9)

252 but kids in Israel and in Merced have done very bad things with knives, even when faced with men guns

I'm not ready to put Army troops in Chicago.

Let's keep apples and oranges separated.

Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at December 01, 2015 04:47 PM (659DL)

253 222 Oh God, the Barrel...

This is bullshit.

There's some sort of newish fix that keeps you from getting embarreled if you forget one close tag. I think two still gets you there.

Close tags in the nick are also bullshit.

People should have to post naked and face the barrel. This technology will not turn out to be our friend in the end.
Posted by: Bandersnatch at December 01, 2015 04:42 PM (1xUj/)

Three years ago this would have been Greek to me.

I'm glad I found this place.

Posted by: Golfman - Xenophobe Extrodinaire at December 01, 2015 04:48 PM (48QDY)

254 but kids in Israel and in Merced have done very bad things with knives, even when faced with men guns
Posted by: ThunderB at December 01, 2015 04:45 PM (zOTsN)

As long as you don't hear anyone praising the snackbar you're probably not in imminent danger of being stabbed.

Again, for a citizen there's a different standard. We are not obligated to deescalate if things go sideways. The police are.

Posted by: Ghost of kari at December 01, 2015 04:48 PM (FfVIs)

255 Cops definitely aren't perfect. That's why we have IA. Cops unfortunately have one thought when they go on duty. Come back alive. Some can handle that thought and not overreact and others cannot. Fortunately scenarios are relatively rare where those who cannot are tested.

Posted by: Max Rockatansky at December 01, 2015 04:48 PM (+Q9b4)

256 And that's why he prosecuted for 1st Degree murder.

Posted by: Saltydonnie at December 01, 2015 04:44 PM (i6shs)

No matter what anyone thinks about this case, a first degree murder charge is insane. Totally insane. And to even make any claims that this could have been 1st degree murder should be immediately disqualifying and just show the bias of such an accuser.

A 1st degree murder charge is beyond nuts.

Posted by: ThePrimordialOrderedPair at December 01, 2015 04:48 PM (zc3Db)

257 Posted by: Saltydonnie at December 01, 2015 04:44 PM (i6shs)

Ok, but 1st degree murder? I'm not seeing it unless there's some embellishment or add on that makes it so. At best it's 2nd degree murder and more likely manslaughter. Also destroying evidence with the Burger King security footage.

But I'm not a lawyer so what do I know?

Posted by: Dack Thrombosis at December 01, 2015 04:48 PM (4ErVI)

258 At least they went into the guy. New York cops empty their mags at perps 10 feet away and totally miss, taking out innocent by-standers all over the place.

I used to go to the indoor shooting range where the DC sniper stole the gun he used. Without exaggeration, the worst safety violations I saw on the line were cops. Hands down. I even saw one female LEO turn the gun around and look down the barrel after a failure to fire.

Posted by: bonhomme at December 01, 2015 04:49 PM (jhqr1)

259 OK, folks. I get the Tueller drill. Got it. Several times over.

Tell me how this makes Dirty Harry here look good in the presence of all those other officers?

Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at December 01, 2015 04:49 PM (659DL)

260 OK, the presence of the coverup makes it a justified shooting.

Happy?

Down this path MSNBC lies.
Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at December

Why yes I am.
1st shot, I'm ok with. Emptying your gun into him. No.

Covering it up is wrong, firing the Chief of Police who you told to cover it up is wrong. But the city gets what it has coming.

Posted by: Misanthropic Humanitarian at December 01, 2015 04:49 PM (mxCgt)

261 see also: Tueller drill

The kid was not charging shooty cop.

The kid had also not charged any of the other cops who'd been keeping him contained for several minutes before shooty cop showed up.

Do you, does anyone, think this was a justified shooting?

Posted by: Bandersnatch at December 01, 2015 04:50 PM (1xUj/)

262 A 1st degree murder charge is beyond nuts.

You're right.... That would require pre-meditation...

Posted by: donna at December 01, 2015 04:50 PM (/dSsq)

263 233 Any questions?

Posted by: Ghost of kari at December 01, 2015 04:50 PM (FfVIs)

264 Is the fired chief going to continue to be paid and/or get his juicy city pension? If not he has a very strong interest in getting the details of the 13 month delay into the public domain very soon.

Posted by: steve walsh at December 01, 2015 04:50 PM (GWY0H)

265 For some strange reason, the dashcam footage available has no soundtrack. I guessing there would have been a lot of sirens, shouting, and plenty of 'Drop the gun!' on it. A little CONTEXT, so to speak.

I suspect Officer Full Auto said something to the perp before ventilating him that also was Heap Bad PR.

Nothing happens without a reason in Chicago.

Posted by: Sort-of-Mad Max at December 01, 2015 04:51 PM (DLu2s)

266 Will Chicago lynch Tiny Dancer?

Posted by: Puddin Head at December 01, 2015 04:51 PM (oDCMR)

267 Posted by: Soona at December 01, 2015 04:47 PM (Fmupd)

That cop had had enough. He snapped. He was listening to the radio. He flipped out and decided he would end it.

I'd plead PTSD.

Posted by: Golfman - Xenophobe Extrodinaire at December 01, 2015 04:51 PM (48QDY)

268 211

Depends: Are you obviously intoxicated? Appear to be potentially mentally ill? Wielding it? Belligerent? Ignoring commands to drop the weapon on contact with the police?

Posted by: rebel flounder at December 01, 2015 04:39 PM (3dOE/)

Right, all of that should be taken in to account. And yet it wasn't here, and as far as I can tell, is not taken in to account when training these mall ninjas on how to deal with intoxicated kids.

Posted by: Harry Paratestes at December 01, 2015 04:40 PM (AkOaV)

Did you watch anything other than the shocking video? Review the 911 transcripts? Hear the police band traffic about the guy's behavior that lead to the final moments? I haven't. So I'll allow that many of those questions were answered in the lead up to that contact.

Again. Overuse of deadly force, sure. But this is manslaughter (mainly for the later shots) and obstruction of justice charges, at best.

Posted by: rebel flounder at December 01, 2015 04:51 PM (3dOE/)

269 Yeah it's eechee-BON

and one of those [click] sounds somewhere in it

Posted by: Bigby's Thumbs Up at December 01, 2015 04:51 PM (3ZtZW)

270 Again, for a citizen there's a different standard. We are not obligated to deescalate if things go sideways. The police are.
Posted by: Ghost of kari at December 01, 2015 04:48 PM (FfVIs)

No, both we and cops (and any lurking defense attorneys feel free to correct me) don't have a legal obligation to de-escalate, but we do have a legal obligation not to escalate -- if that makes sense. Now, it's obviously different for cops as they are legally allowed to use force to arrest someone, but...

In some states, you do have a legal obligation (as a non-cop) to try to retreat.

Posted by: Harry Paratestes at December 01, 2015 04:52 PM (AkOaV)

271 Will Chicago lynch Tiny Dancer?

Nah, they're gonna have to find some way to blame some republican.... Trump?

Posted by: donna at December 01, 2015 04:52 PM (/dSsq)

272 Let's do an experiment:

Let's get as many people of different colors and nationalities in as many major metroplotian cities across as we can, a real cross section of society.

Let's get them high on PCP and make them rob a store at knife point.

Let's make them slash a cop car tire and then walk down the middle of the street waving a deadly weapon around all the while being uncomplient to police commands to drop the weapon and get on the ground.

I'm fairly confident we will have a fairly high percentage of these people being shot to death by responding police officers, perhaps as high as 100pct.

But definetly not less than 75pct.

Posted by: Kreplach at December 01, 2015 04:52 PM (WVvzl)

273 1. unloading the clip is bad

2. destroying the tape is bad

he should be charged with 1st degree murder

but

a druggie with a knife can do some damage

Posted by: ThunderB at December 01, 2015 04:52 PM (zOTsN)

274
ISIS guy blows himself up.

http://goo.gl/YzCplU

Posted by: Bear With a Wang! at December 01, 2015 04:52 PM (iQIUe)

275 ut also -- that kind of "fuck up" would land you or me in jail for life. Having a deadly weapon like a firearm or a car or a chainsaw is a big responsibility. You don't get any do-evers.
Posted by: Harry Paratestes at December 01, 2015 04:47 PM (AkOaV

Well Harry he isn't getting a do-over. He's facing 1st degree murder charge. Odds are it won't be reduced and he will be convicted. I suspect his conscience is also bothering him.

Posted by: Misanthropic Humanitarian at December 01, 2015 04:53 PM (mxCgt)

276
Tell me how this makes Dirty Harry here look good in the presence of all those other officers?

Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here)

It doesn't. He looks pretty bad in this situation.

Looks like a bad shoot to me.

I think the 1st Degree charge is an intentional attempt to sink the case, as someone stated upthread.

Posted by: Moderate Salami, weeping for our dead Republic at December 01, 2015 04:53 PM (/Ho8c)

277 Somebody who know legal stuff tell my why does the public's right to know trump a defendant's right to a fair trial?

Why does evidence in a crime have to be released to the public before the trial?

and who ordered the video released to the public?

Posted by: Lester Flaggines at December 01, 2015 04:53 PM (PLZH5)

278 Did you watch anything other than the shocking video? Review the 911 transcripts? Hear the police band traffic about the guy's behavior that lead to the final moments? I haven't. So I'll allow that many of those questions were answered in the lead up to that contact.

Posted by: rebel flounder at December 01, 2015 04:51 PM (3dOE/)

No, but from a legal standpoint, I don't see how thats relevant in deciding if the shooting was justified or not.

Also, yes, I think murder 1 will be difficult to convict on.

Posted by: Harry Paratestes at December 01, 2015 04:53 PM (AkOaV)

279 I wasn't even high on dust.

Posted by: Zombie Eula Love at December 01, 2015 04:53 PM (ucB75)

280 Oh, and am not going to defend shooting guy 16 times. But. BUT! Have y'all ever seen anyone on PCP being totally and completely out of control? Where it takes four burly medics to put in four point restraints they are so freaking strong? I have. Heck, even a guy just having some schizophrenia is super strong. He had a knife. Ok. He could have hurt someone. Ok. But he also could have been shot in the knees.

Police, even pre-Ferguson, have hard lives. Every day. Police have it even harder today. I feel for the guy who maybe got too freaked and shot the guy. I do.

The police chief is probably relieved he got fired.

Posted by: ChristyBlinky, aging supermodel Redneck Queen at December 01, 2015 04:53 PM (Mopd7)

281 I even saw one female LEO turn the gun around and look down the barrel after a failure to fire.

Posted by: bonhomme at December 01, 2015 04:49 PM (jhqr1)

LOL. You should have given her a pencil to help pry the bullet out ...

The chick was probably scoring hits all over your targets (and everyone else's), too.

Posted by: ThePrimordialOrderedPair at December 01, 2015 04:54 PM (zc3Db)

282 Also, a person can do quite a nasty job on another person with a 3" knife. Just go for the face, and stir vigorously.

Posted by: Sort-of-Mad Max at December 01, 2015 04:54 PM (DLu2s)

283 Well Harry he isn't getting a do-over. He's facing 1st degree murder charge. Odds are it won't be reduced and he will be convicted. I suspect his conscience is also bothering him.

Posted by: Misanthropic Humanitarian at December 01, 2015 04:53 PM (mxCgt)

Well, I hope so. Because regardless of how the kid was acting, this cops horribly irresponsible behavior with a deadly weapon means that kid is now dead.

Posted by: Harry Paratestes at December 01, 2015 04:54 PM (AkOaV)

284 Do you, does anyone, think this was a justified shooting?

No. Tueller Drill was pointed out simply because it was stated that someone with a knife 20 feet away WAS NOT a threat, unless he was a secret asian man.

Posted by: rickb223 at December 01, 2015 04:54 PM (+ZSW1)

285 its not manslaughter its murder. intent matters

Posted by: ThunderB at December 01, 2015 04:54 PM (zOTsN)

286 I suspect his conscience is also bothering him.

Posted by: Misanthropic Humanitarian

I would hope so. He f*cked up bad.

Posted by: Moderate Salami, weeping for our dead Republic at December 01, 2015 04:54 PM (/Ho8c)

287 I'm fairly confident we will have a fairly high percentage of these people being shot to death by responding police officers, perhaps as high as 100pct.

I'm fairly confident that the percentage is really low because this stuff happens all the time. Cops don't empty their weapons into people that pose no imminent threat, especially in the presence of a dozen other cops.

Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at December 01, 2015 04:54 PM (659DL)

288 The police chief is probably relieved he got fired.
Posted by: ChristyBlinky, aging supermodel Redneck Queen at December 01, 2015 04:53 PM (Mopd7)

you're probably right.... He should get the hell out of Dodge...

Posted by: donna at December 01, 2015 04:54 PM (/dSsq)

289 Also, yes, I think murder 1 will be difficult to convict on.
Posted by: Harry Paratestes at December 01, 2015 04:53 PM (AkOaV)

I "Assume" all the other types of murder have been thrown in also and Murder 1 was only included to satisfy the mob

Posted by: Nevergiveup at December 01, 2015 04:55 PM (gf8BH)

290 MisHum,
Please check your email.

Posted by: Carol at December 01, 2015 04:55 PM (sj3Ax)

291 Murder straight up.

Posted by: eleven at December 01, 2015 04:55 PM (rjtGa)

292 I'm looking for his DOB. I see the year - 1997 but no month or day. Why?

===

look on facebook. all that crap gets discussed there. Any time there's a murder, check there first and chances are you'll ID the perp before the cops do or the paper prints it.

Posted by: Bigby's Thumbs Up at December 01, 2015 04:56 PM (3ZtZW)

293 Speaking of newspapers somebody named Richard Cohen has the sads because has lost his ability to persuade.
Really? I've never found sneering, condescension, arrogance, stuttering, ignorance and bullshit to be particularly persuasive.
But I guess I'm the only one.

Posted by: Northernlurker at December 01, 2015 04:56 PM (R7Al0)

294 I haven't seen it, but Jon Podoretz says the press conference Rahm Emmanuel just gave was "disastrous."

----------------------

Can I say that most of the time pundits anymore say something is disastrous it doesn't mean a thing. Skippy gave a pathetic speech after Paris and it didn't mean a thing.

Posted by: WOPR at December 01, 2015 04:56 PM (LTDSy)

295 261 see also: Tueller drill

The kid was not charging shooty cop.

The kid had also not charged any of the other cops who'd been keeping him contained for several minutes before shooty cop showed up.

Do you, does anyone, think this was a justified shooting?
Posted by: Bandersnatch at December 01, 2015 04:50 PM (1xUj

-----------------

I don't know anything for sure. Let's wait until the trial to find out what really happened before we convict him.

Posted by: Soona at December 01, 2015 04:56 PM (Fmupd)

296 I would still like to hear the audio from that dashcam.

Posted by: Pappy O'Daniel at December 01, 2015 04:56 PM (oVJmc)

297 But he also could have been shot in the knees.

Posted by: ChristyBlinky, aging supermodel Redneck Queen at December 01, 2015 04:53 PM (Mopd7)

Nah, that's not how it works.

a) it's very hard to get accuracy like that, especially when you train on shooting center mass
and
b) the cops should only be using deadly force when they are in fear for their lives. And if he was in fear for his life, he'd be shooting center mass, not at limbs.

the problem is that there's no way a reasonable man would see that video tape and say, "yep i would be in reasonable fear for my life, and I can see how the cop thought he was. totally justified."

Posted by: Harry Paratestes at December 01, 2015 04:56 PM (AkOaV)

298 all other lesser crimes are lessor included offenses of murder

Posted by: ThunderB at December 01, 2015 04:57 PM (zOTsN)

299 Next in the Ghost in the Shell franchise after Arise is Virtual Reality Diver which completely reinvents the cyborg build sequence of Major Kusanagi from Oshii's 1990 Ghost in the Shell movie in this trailer.

https://youtu.be/HZ5py_n30to

Posted by: Anna Puma at December 01, 2015 04:57 PM (Dq9lL)

300 Nevergiveup, he shouldn't have shot the kid even one time, please see post 233. The subsequent 15 shots illustrate that he's a fuckhead.

Posted by: Ghost of kari at December 01, 2015 04:57 PM (FfVIs)

301 WHAT DIFFERENCE AT THIS POINT DOES IT MAKE????

Posted by: Hizzoner Twinkletoes TuTu at December 01, 2015 04:57 PM (oVJmc)

302 @287

I said it was an experiment.

We have to test the theory to be sure.

If we take Furgeson and Chicago as two fairly similar incidents.

High, strong are robbery, walking down the middle of the street, uncompliant to police commands.

We have a 100pct fatality rate under this scenario so far.

Posted by: Kreplach at December 01, 2015 04:58 PM (WVvzl)

303 OK, I'm generally in the not positively disposed towards cops camp. So I'm posting this in atonement.

http://www.seacoastonline.com/article/20151201/NEWS/151209933

Posted by: Bandersnatch at December 01, 2015 04:58 PM (1xUj/)

304 LOL. You should have given her a pencil to help pry the bullet out ...

I gave her a "POINT YOUR WEAPON DOWN RANGE!" She left shortly after that.

Posted by: bonhomme at December 01, 2015 04:58 PM (jhqr1)

305 Ok. But he also could have been shot in the knees.

Posted by: ChristyBlinky, aging supermodel Redneck Queen at December 01, 2015 04:53 PM (Mopd7)

You never try to shoot someone in the knees. That is just a big mistake.

Posted by: ThePrimordialOrderedPair at December 01, 2015 04:58 PM (zc3Db)

306 I guess if they can convict an Oklahoma pharmacist who went back and shot an armed robber who he previously shot and thought was still a threat , of First degree Murder, they can convict this cop.

Posted by: Max Rockatansky at December 01, 2015 04:58 PM (+Q9b4)

307 We have a 100pct fatality rate under this scenario so far.

Ever watched COPS? No, we do not.

Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at December 01, 2015 04:59 PM (659DL)

308 In before the Scorpion!

Posted by: Grump928(c) mutters at December 01, 2015 04:59 PM (evdj2)

309 I "Assume" all the other types of murder have been thrown in also and Murder 1 was only included to satisfy the mob
Posted by: Nevergiveup at December 01, 2015 04:55 PM (gf8BH)

I don't know what else, if anything he was charged with.

But the problem with manslaughter is that he's not claiming his gun misfired here. He's saying (in a sworn affidavit known as a police report) that the kid lunged at him, he was in fear for his life, so he shot. Then he saw a weapon on the ground, and kept shooting.

So his intent was to "stop the threat" by killing the kid.

...I don't know...

Posted by: Harry Paratestes at December 01, 2015 04:59 PM (AkOaV)

310 Bear with a wang,
Thanks for link to ISIS blowing himself up.

Posted by: Carol at December 01, 2015 04:59 PM (sj3Ax)

311 I think that, even given all the differences of opinion surrounding the circumstances of the shooting the commenters here have, we can all agree on one thing: the cop shouldn't have shot the PCP-addled fugitive 16 times.

He should have shot Spike Lee 16 times. Then we'd make HIM mayor!

Posted by: Sort-of-Mad Max at December 01, 2015 05:00 PM (DLu2s)

312 Let's wait until the trial to find out what really happened before we convict him.

----

Full circle: ITS CHICAGO

Posted by: Bigby's Thumbs Up at December 01, 2015 05:00 PM (3ZtZW)

313 This looks like murder to me

I only object to the idea that a guy with a knife is no danger to a guy with a gun. That just isn't so

Posted by: ThunderB at December 01, 2015 05:01 PM (zOTsN)

314 Posted by: ThePrimordialOrderedPair at December 01, 2015 04:48 PM (zc3Db)
---

16 bullets (if he actually fired that) shows he absolutely intended to kill him. Premeditation is the second before the act - I want him dead, bang, he's dead. teh cop has to JUSTIFY the shots. One or two, maybe three, but sixteen? Depends on the situation, and that's not called for here (also, note no use of non-lethal force, or apprent attempt to, like a TASER, with one officer drawing on him, the other using the TASER).

I handled a case where a knife wielding suspect killed his GF and then charged the cops. 5 officers with guns drawn responded. Tried to TASER him but his clothes were too heavy (beign winter). Suspect himmed and hawed for 1 1/2 minutes and finally lunged toward a Trooper that he had previous experience with (being a repeated offender), likely suicide by cop. The cops told him several times to drop the knife, he didn't, he lunged toward the Trooper and the Trooper fired two shots. Two. And he was dead in seconds. Police and bystanders witnesses aplenty. Perfectly clean shooting, officially held clean.

Sixteen? This wasn't a shoot out here. No exigent or emergency circumstances. He wasn't defending other cops or bystanders. The suspect wasn't facing him or rushing him. Sorry, this is bad.

Posted by: Saltydonnie at December 01, 2015 05:01 PM (i6shs)

315 They hide the bodies in the deep dish pizza

Posted by: Ghost of kari at December 01, 2015 05:01 PM (FfVIs)

316 294 I haven't seen it, but Jon Podoretz says the press conference Rahm Emmanuel just gave was "disastrous."

WOPR

I just got re-elected. Fcuk Jon Podoretz.

Posted by: Rahm at December 01, 2015 05:01 PM (48QDY)

317 Posted by: Bandersnatch at December 01, 2015 04:58 PM (1xUj/)

great story. And from my neck of the woods to boot.

Posted by: Harry Paratestes at December 01, 2015 05:02 PM (AkOaV)

318 Nevergiveup, he shouldn't have shot the kid even one time, please see post 233. The subsequent 15 shots illustrate that he's a fuckhead.
Posted by: Ghost of kari at December 01, 2015 04:57 PM (FfVIs)

Why are you directing that at me? All I ever said the kid was no Saint and put himself in a precarious position. I never defended the cop other than saying I think Murder 1 is a stretch?

Posted by: Nevergiveup at December 01, 2015 05:02 PM (gf8BH)

319 manslaughter is a lesser included offense of murder

it does not have to be charged if murder is charged

the jury can find for the LIO if they think the facts warrant it

Posted by: ThunderB at December 01, 2015 05:02 PM (zOTsN)

320 eh I'm late

good night

Posted by: Bigby's Thumbs Up at December 01, 2015 05:02 PM (3ZtZW)

321 I even saw one female LEO turn the gun around and look down the barrel after a failure to fire.

Missed that one by thaaaaaat much ...

Posted by: Chuck Darwin at December 01, 2015 05:02 PM (oKE6c)

322 262 A 1st degree murder charge is beyond nuts.

You're right.... That would require pre-meditation...
Posted by: donna at December 01, 2015 04:50 PM (/dSsq)

Premeditation doesn't mean he planned it out for days. Just that he made the decision to kill him. He could have formed the requisite intent on the drive over, while he was getting out of the car, while he was closing the distance in McDonald or even after he started shooting.

Posted by: Insomniac - Pale Horse/Death 2016 at December 01, 2015 05:03 PM (kpqmD)

323 I see a number if people would benefit from a live training scenario if only to rethink position that shoot / no shoot decisions are obvious. It sure opened the eyes of a couple of Black preachers.

Posted by: Max Rockatansky at December 01, 2015 05:03 PM (+Q9b4)

324 Thanks for coming out of lurk mode Saltydonnie, good perspective

Posted by: Ghost of kari at December 01, 2015 05:03 PM (FfVIs)

325 You never try to shoot someone in the knees. That is just a big mistake.

What about Hillary? That would still be center of mass.

Posted by: Hizzoner Twinkletoes TuTu at December 01, 2015 05:03 PM (oVJmc)

326 @307

I have never watched cops but I have seen enough incidents with enough comanalities that lead me to believe that someone who is has just strong armed robbed a store while high as a kite, brandishing a deadly weapon while being uncomplient to police commands to drop said weapon is nearly 100pct fatal.

Doesn't matter the race, doesn't matter the nationality, doesn't matter the locality or jurisdiction, it's by and large 100pct fatal.

Did not say the cop was justified, that will come out at the trial, all I'm saying is the outcome is not unexpected.

Posted by: Kreplach at December 01, 2015 05:03 PM (WVvzl)

327 I only object to the idea that a guy with a knife is no danger to a guy with a gun. That just isn't so
Posted by: ThunderB at December 01, 2015 05:01 PM (zOTsN)

And many Israelis would agree with you now a days

Posted by: Nevergiveup at December 01, 2015 05:03 PM (gf8BH)

328
Premeditation doesn't mean he planned it out for days. Just that he made the decision to kill him. He could have formed the requisite intent on the drive over, while he was getting out of the car, while he was closing the distance in McDonald or even after he started shooting.

How could they prove that?

Posted by: donna at December 01, 2015 05:03 PM (/dSsq)

329 Why are you directing that at me? All I ever said the kid was no Saint and put himself in a precarious position. I never defended the cop other than saying I think Murder 1 is a stretch?
Posted by: Nevergiveup at December 01, 2015 05:02 PM (gf8BH)

And I disagree. Just letting you know. That's what the internet's for.

Well. That's ALSO what it's for...

Posted by: Ghost of kari at December 01, 2015 05:04 PM (FfVIs)

330 Posted by: Saltydonnie at December 01, 2015 05:01 PM (i6shs)

Thanks for the input, we all appreciate it when experty people weigh in

Posted by: Harry Paratestes at December 01, 2015 05:04 PM (AkOaV)

331 I guess my saying "shoot in knees" is sort of like when I yell at crime shows to "shoot the tires!" on cars getting away with bad guys. Probably why husband won't let me have a hand gun. I'd be really good, however.

I feel bad for the police today. Being killed in cars. Putting up with stupid beer summit leadership and support. Dang. Ole Jug Ear has certainly accomplished a lot of internal division, no? Is there a Pulitzer for that?

Posted by: ChristyBlinky, aging supermodel Redneck Queen at December 01, 2015 05:05 PM (Mopd7)

332 2601st shot, I'm ok with. Emptying your gun into him. No.

Covering it up is wrong, firing the Chief of Police who you told to cover it up is wrong. But the city gets what it has coming.

Posted by: Misanthropic Humanitarian at December 01, 2015 04:49 PM (mxCgt)

This.

Absolutely justified, first few shots, to remove the threat. After being immobilized on the ground, is where the justification ceases and we start talking murder 1 versus manslaughter.

Unless the cop uttered on the radio something about intent to "put him down," you don't get murder 1 without an OJ-social-justice jury.

Posted by: rebel flounder at December 01, 2015 05:05 PM (3dOE/)

333 Hail, meant "Nobel" prize not Pulitzer. doof.

Posted by: ChristyBlinky, aging supermodel Redneck Queen at December 01, 2015 05:05 PM (Mopd7)

334 premediation can be formed in an instant and it can be proved by the actions taken

like by shooting a guy lying on the ground 15 times

Posted by: ThunderB at December 01, 2015 05:05 PM (zOTsN)

335 So Dicaprio goes bear hunting and shoots at a bear. He gets down to where the bear should be laying dead and no bear. Then Dicaprio feels a tap on his shoulder. It is the bear. The bear says that was not very nice and he is going to maul him to death unless Dicaprio give him some loving. Well Dicaprio doesn't want to get ass raped by a bear so pulls his pants down and lets the bear go after it.

After the bear is done, Dicaprio wants revenge so he goes into town and gets a BMG50 and heads out to get the bear. He sees it down a canyon and takes his shot. Sure that he got him Dicaprio heads down to get his prize but when he gets there, no bear. Then Dicaprio feels a tap on his shoulder and it is the bear. The bear says,"I think you know the drill. Get it I said drill?" Well Dicaprio takes it in the pooper again.

The bear finishes up again and Dicaprio is super pissed. He heads into town and gets an RPG and goes to find the bear. He finds the bear and fires of the grenade and a huge explosion happens where the bear was. Heading down only expecting to find bits of the bear he feels a tap on his shoulder and it's the bear. The bear looks at Dicaprio and says "Son you ain't in this for the hunting are you?"

Posted by: Jukin, Former Republican at December 01, 2015 05:05 PM (AhyHb)

336 And I disagree. Just letting you know. That's what the internet's for.

Well. That's ALSO what it's for...
Posted by: Ghost of kari at December 01, 2015 05:04 PM (FfVIs)

Yeah and what do you disagree with pray tell. I am not a mind reader

Posted by: Nevergiveup at December 01, 2015 05:05 PM (gf8BH)

337
I just bought a dongle. You know what a dongle is?

Posted by: Soothsayer the autoresponsebot at December 01, 2015 05:07 PM (sixca)

338 Yeah and what do you disagree with pray tell. I am not a mind reader
Posted by: Nevergiveup at December 01, 2015 05:05 PM (gf8BH)

ctrl-f
"kari"
use your reading eyes.

Posted by: Ghost of kari at December 01, 2015 05:07 PM (FfVIs)

339 328
Premeditation doesn't mean he planned it out for days. Just that he made the decision to kill him. He could have formed the requisite intent on the drive over, while he was getting out of the car, while he was closing the distance in McDonald or even after he started shooting.

How could they prove that?
Posted by: donna at December 01, 2015 05:03 PM (/dSsq)

If I was prosecuting the case my argument would be that he was in no imminent danger, that he deliberately closed the distance with the suspect, that he was the only one to shoot, and that he shot the suspect 16 times under those circumstances, 12-13 of which were after the suspect was on the ground and incapacitated. You could make a pretty good case based on those facts that Van Dyke formed the intent to kill McDonald and then did so.

Posted by: Insomniac - Pale Horse/Death 2016 at December 01, 2015 05:08 PM (kpqmD)

340 323 I see a number if people would benefit from a live training scenario if only to rethink position that shoot / no shoot decisions are obvious. It sure opened the eyes of a couple of Black preachers.
Posted by: Max Rockatansky at December 01, 2015 05:03 PM (+Q9b4)

Max, we all know it's tough. But if you don't err on the side of "don't shoot" every time, you might end up killing someone who was no threat to you. Like this cop did to this kid. Which means you may end up in jail for life.

This was not a situation like the Mike Brown situation, where a cops driving along and a kid escalates the violence at every step to the point where Wilson needed ot make a shoot / dont shoot decision.

The cop drove up, put himself in dangers way (according to him, in fear for his life), then unloaded his gun.

If the cop really was in fear for his life, he would not have gotten out of a car 20 feet away from a knife wielding person. He would have backed the car up.

Besides, cars are stronger than knives, we all know that.

Posted by: Harry Paratestes at December 01, 2015 05:08 PM (AkOaV)

341 Premeditation can be formed in an instant? Heh.

Posted by: Max Rockatansky at December 01, 2015 05:09 PM (+Q9b4)

342 Posted by: Ghost of kari at December 01, 2015 05:07 PM (FfVIs)

Speak English

Posted by: Nevergiveup at December 01, 2015 05:09 PM (gf8BH)

343 I just bought a dongle. You know what a dongle is?

Would you say you have a plethora of dongles?

Posted by: El Guapo at December 01, 2015 05:09 PM (evdj2)

344 premeditation in the second before I pull the trigger.

Ya, if I pull the trigger I intend to kill the target.

If I don't want to kill the target, I'm backing up and vacating the area.

That's why I hate this interpreting what the words mean that only an expert can do, and only after weeks and months of study, years of education, and contemplation on what is right and what is wrong.

And it's why I never leave the house. The experts have created a universe in which it is impossible to survive.

Posted by: Lester Flaggines at December 01, 2015 05:09 PM (PLZH5)

345 16 bullets (if he actually fired that) shows he absolutely intended to kill him.

It shows that he definitely intended to stop him.

Premeditation is the second before the act - I want him dead, bang, he's dead.
.
Posted by: Saltydonnie at December 01, 2015 05:01 PM (i6shs)

You see, that's the sort of ridiculous shit that makes people hate lawyers. That's just stupid. I'm not calling you stupid - I know that you're just giving me the rundown on how things are handled in court - but that sort of "logic" is totally insane. Of course, in our court system it doesn't surprise me.

A lesser murder charge for this is one thing. A 1st degree murder charge is intellectually offensive, and unjust beyond words. And the "legal logic" is infuriating. If the courts just like to make shit up as they go then I would rather they just, at least, be honest about making shit up instead of offering these arguments that would get someone tossed out of 3rd grade.

Again, not personal. I'm attacking the twisted pseudo-logic that is accepted in our courts and promulgated by the law schools.

Posted by: ThePrimordialOrderedPair at December 01, 2015 05:09 PM (zc3Db)

346 OK, we have a rough consensus that shooty cop is bad.

We also have an indictment of shooty cop about 32 seconds after the video surfaces. The video surfaces 400 days after the shooting, and only because of a FOIA request.

So that video wouldn't have been shown. The Burger King video has been allegedly disappeared.

Rahm throws the police chief under the bus.

Isn't the story here the corruption of Chicago? Or is that such a given that it isn't a story?

Posted by: Bandersnatch at December 01, 2015 05:09 PM (1xUj/)

347 OK, I'm generally in the not positively disposed towards cops camp. So I'm posting this in atonement.
Posted by: Bandersnatch at December 01, 2015 04:58 PM (1xUj/)

My feelings on cops are decidedly mixed. Some are very good, some are very bad, some are lazy, etc.. Like people in general. But with badges and guns, so the results are amplified. I'm sure most want to do a good job, though. I do think there may be issues with the training in some cases.

There is a very good one in my town though, who has even made national news for hanging out with the local kids.

Posted by: Lea at December 01, 2015 05:09 PM (lIU4e)

348
I'm in a cheap gadget buying mood.
Just bought a usb bluetooth dongle. For $6, delievered to my door, I now have bluetooth on my pc via a dongle.

Also just bought a USB 4-port hub to add extra usb slots to my. $7, delivered to my door.

Posted by: Soothsayer the autoresponsebot at December 01, 2015 05:09 PM (sixca)

349 How was the assault on the police vehicle reported on the radio? Could it have been (or been taken as) an attack on police themselves?

Posted by: Pappy O'Daniel at December 01, 2015 05:09 PM (oVJmc)

350
Some 60 year old man shot and killed a 13 y/o boy in StL for burglarizing his car. Where's the marches?

http://goo.gl/vwJz4s

Posted by: Bear With a Wang! at December 01, 2015 05:10 PM (iQIUe)

351 Now is the time for fresh eyes and leadership

This has to be followed with "and therefore I am stepping down" or its just nonsense.

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at December 01, 2015 05:10 PM (39g3+)

352 Absolutely justified, first few shots, to remove the threat. After being immobilized on the ground, is where the justification ceases and we start talking murder 1 versus manslaughter.

Unless the cop uttered on the radio something about intent to "put him down," you don't get murder 1 without an OJ-social-justice jury.
Posted by: rebel flounder at December 01, 2015 05:05 PM (3dOE/)

No, none of thats right. And if you have a gun, please please please read up on self defense laws.

aoshq lurker Andrew Branca actually has a book on the subject. Great read, I'd encourage everyone to check it out

Posted by: Harry Paratestes at December 01, 2015 05:10 PM (AkOaV)

353 I just bought a dongle. You know what a dongle is?

Would you say you have a plethora of dongles?

This thread is wrought with sexual tension.

Posted by: eleven at December 01, 2015 05:10 PM (rjtGa)

354 I've been talking to you literally this entire thread, I made the same point like 4 times.

You claim not to defend the cop but say he shouldn't be prosecuted for murder one. I'm saying "yes he should" because he shot the kid 16 times. In the state I live in I'd have to reload (thanks MA) to do that.

Posted by: Ghost of kari at December 01, 2015 05:10 PM (FfVIs)

355 I just bought a dongle. You know what a dongle is?

Would you say you have a plethora of dongles?

Posted by: El Guapo at December 01, 2015 05:09 PM

Si! You definitely have a plethora of dongles!

Posted by: El Henchman at December 01, 2015 05:11 PM (pLwjI)

356
If I stay on ebay any longer, I'll probably buy a new pc...

But I'm bored...

Posted by: Soothsayer the autoresponsebot at December 01, 2015 05:12 PM (sixca)

357 Unless the cop uttered on the radio something about intent to "put him down," you don't get murder 1 without an OJ-social-justice jury.

Posted by: rebel flounder at December 01, 2015 05:05 PM (3dOE/)

this is not true and it is not the law.

Posted by: ThunderB at December 01, 2015 05:12 PM (zOTsN)

358 Could it have been (or been taken as) an attack on police themselves?

Only if they invoked Article Five...

Posted by: AltonJackson at December 01, 2015 05:12 PM (ZQfW9)

359 "that he deliberately closed the distance with the suspect, "

cops aren't much use if they never approach a suspect.
You toss'm the cuffs from thirty feet away and say 'put those on'

but I am not an expert so what do I know.

Posted by: Lester Flaggines at December 01, 2015 05:12 PM (PLZH5)

360 My attitude for cops is that they're so attacked and demonized, yet so important and generally good guys that I will default to their defense. If something looks bad for the cops, I'll look for how its not really that bad.

But I do know that cops are no different than any other job: most of them are just punching the clock and some are awful.

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at December 01, 2015 05:12 PM (39g3+)

361 You claim not to defend the cop but say he shouldn't be prosecuted for murder one. I'm saying "yes he should" because he shot the kid 16 times. In the state I live in I'd have to reload (thanks MA) to do that.
Posted by: Ghost of kari at December 01, 2015 05:10 PM (FfVIs)

I said it's a stretch. That is all. Don't put words in my mouth.

Posted by: Nevergiveup at December 01, 2015 05:13 PM (gf8BH)

362 Democrats must CREATE social injustice in order to campaign FOR social justice

Posted by: Adirondack Patriot at December 01, 2015 05:13 PM (qUgla)

363 Bear with a wang,
Thanks for link to ISIS blowing himself up.

O.K. This just made me laugh, which is so needed around here.

Hi, Carol-Hope you're well. :^)

Posted by: FenelonSpoke at December 01, 2015 05:13 PM (No/ki)

364 Posted by: ThePrimordialOrderedPair at December 01, 2015 05:09 PM (zc3Db)

In your enraged, spittle-flecked rant you did nothing to explain why you take issue with the concept of premeditation with regard to the crime of murder. What is your precise objection, other than it being "insane" "stupid" and "ridiculous shit"?

Posted by: Insomniac - Pale Horse/Death 2016 at December 01, 2015 05:14 PM (kpqmD)

365 Posted by: Harry Paratestes at December 01, 2015 05:04 PM (AkOaV)
---

Thanks. I'm paid to defend cops but I'm ineffectual if I'm biased for them.

Most of the "anti-cop" b.s. is just that - political b.s. designed simply to start shit. Trumped-up nothing-burgers that can be seen for the b.s they are IF you know police procedure, use of force, etc. The Tell - all of the protesting is done before any charges are even filed (as opposed to, say, after a verdict) - that's not protesting "injustice", that trying to influence charges and its never a good thing.

I don't know all the facts of this here case, so I'm not doing a Barry O "the cops acted stupidly" . I'm just giving my Two Cents based on what I saw in the video as if I was given the dash cam video to watch. And it ain't pretty.

But that's what juries are for.

I hear they tried to delete a Burger King surveillance video? Really? Surely they knew the dash cams existed, since most cars have them these days. Good luck trying to tamper with that.

Posted by: Saltydonnie at December 01, 2015 05:14 PM (i6shs)

366 Ni Ban: We're number two because our food tastes like shit.

Posted by: Ni Ban at December 01, 2015 05:14 PM (8ZskC)

367 Chris I completely agree. They do something most people couldn't, and deserve the benefit of the doubt by default. At the end of the day, though, the facts must stand.

And the real scumbag in this situation is Emmanuel, who, look at that, has had his plan to deflect work to perfection, even with us thirsty-for-corruptocrat blood morons.

Posted by: Ghost of kari at December 01, 2015 05:14 PM (FfVIs)

368
Democrats must CREATE social injustice in order to campaign FOR social justice

Wise. Aptly put.
My alter-ego, Shih Tzu, would approve.

Posted by: Soothsayer the autoresponsebot at December 01, 2015 05:14 PM (sixca)

369 I think the most important question in all this is how Donald Trump can be blamed, or, failing that, Sarah Palin.

Posted by: Pappy O'Daniel at December 01, 2015 05:15 PM (oVJmc)

370 How did it become so late?

BBL.

Posted by: Carol at December 01, 2015 05:15 PM (sj3Ax)

371 I hear they tried to delete a Burger King surveillance video? Really? Surely they knew the dash cams existed, since most cars have them these days. Good luck trying to tamper with that.

Posted by: Saltydonnie at December 01, 2015 05:14 PM (i6shs)

That's what it sounds like, yeah. Maybe they were worried about a BK employee leaking the video. I mean, they were able to keep the dash cam video on the downlow for over a year...

Posted by: Harry Paratestes at December 01, 2015 05:15 PM (AkOaV)

372 Posted by: Insomniac - Pale Horse/Death 2016 at December 01, 2015 05:14 PM (kpqmD)

Because it's insane to say something can be both instantaneous and premeditated at the same time.

Posted by: Max Rockatansky at December 01, 2015 05:15 PM (+Q9b4)

373 "... ad-hoc blue-ribbon commission to determine why the people empanelling the commission ordered the cover-up."
-----------------

*recalls Charlie Rose asking Rubio, "But why would Hillary lie about that?" *

Posted by: Mike Hammer, etc., etc. at December 01, 2015 05:15 PM (9mTYi)

374 348
I'm in a cheap gadget buying mood.
Just bought a usb bluetooth dongle. For $6, delievered to my door, I now have bluetooth on my pc via a dongle.

Also just bought a USB 4-port hub to add extra usb slots to my. $7, delivered to my door.
Posted by: Soothsayer the autoresponsebot at December 01, 2015 05:09 PM (sixca)

Purchased a Bluetooth transmitter for the TV. Streaming to my Mini-Jambox so I don't disturb Golflady in the bedroom while I'm watching TV in the den. Bluetooth speaker works quite well in the coffee table for my hard of hearing self.

Posted by: Rahm at December 01, 2015 05:16 PM (flLNR)

375 278
No, but from a legal standpoint, I don't see how thats relevant in deciding if the shooting was justified or not.

Posted by: Harry Paratestes at December 01, 2015 04:53 PM (AkOaV)

Self-defense and other doctrines are from a reasonable person standard, no? In that case, these contextual details matter. Was he some random kid that just left glee club practice or a hardened, intoxicated perp who was hell-bent on evading LE and even taunting police and using violence in his attempt to flee?

Shit like that matters to the perception of the threat.

Posted by: rebel flounder at December 01, 2015 05:16 PM (3dOE/)

376
Okay, so that totalitarian fascist corporatist Bill Gates somehow installed an annoying reminder on my pc for me to install Windows 10.

Should I?

Posted by: Soothsayer the autoresponsebot at December 01, 2015 05:16 PM (sixca)

377 Horrific new details emerge in 1972 Munich Olympics massacre
More than 40 years after the murder of 11 Israeli athletes at the Summer Games in Munich, a new documentary film and a New York Times article expose the brutal torture the victims endured before their tragic deaths.

What they did is that they cut off his genitals through his underwear and abused him, Mrs. Romano said. Can you imagine the nine others sitting around him, tied up, seeing this?

The two widows, as representatives of the victims families, were exposed to especially harsh photos of the slaughtered athletes. Mrs. Romano told the NY Times that the photos were as bad I could have imagined. The papers editors also saw the photos, deeming them to graphic to publish.

Yossef Romano was shot while trying to fight the terrorists at the beginning of their attack. They left him to bleed out before the eyes of his fellow athletes, and castrated him. The others were brutally beaten.

Nice ha? Hey let's give em a State

Posted by: Nevergiveup at December 01, 2015 05:16 PM (gf8BH)

378 Ahhhh
A thread about the land of glory....Chicago
And cops too

Woohoo!!!!

Posted by: Navycopjoe at December 01, 2015 05:16 PM (MejEz)

379 Off short fingered sock.

Posted by: Golfman at December 01, 2015 05:17 PM (flLNR)

380 Now is the time for fresh eyes and leadership

This has to be followed with "and therefore I am stepping down" or its just nonsense.
Posted by: Christopher Taylor

Similar to saying "mistakes were made."

Posted by: Bertram Cabot Jr. at December 01, 2015 05:17 PM (FkBIv)

381 306 I guess if they can convict an Oklahoma pharmacist who went back and shot an armed robber who he previously shot and thought was still a threat , of First degree Murder, they can convict this cop.
Posted by: Max Rockatansky at December 01, 2015 04:58 PM (+Q9b4)

----------------------

Yup. There is precedence to the Chicago case. But the cop didn't walk away and then come back a start shooting. If he had done that, then pre-meditation to 1st degree murder wod be infinitely more easily proved.

Posted by: Soona at December 01, 2015 05:17 PM (Fmupd)

382 Because it's insane to say something can be both instantaneous and premeditated at the same time.
Posted by: Max Rockatansky at December 01, 2015 05:15 PM (+Q9b4)

Well, it's not.

As I understand it, it's to differentiate between the "I quote my wife in the act of cheating, I hit the guy in the head as hard as I could, and somehow it killed him" type "instantaneous" from the "I unloaded my gun in to someone, making a conscious decision to pull the trigger 16 times."

Posted by: Harry Paratestes at December 01, 2015 05:17 PM (AkOaV)

383 Okay, so that totalitarian fascist corporatist Bill Gates somehow installed an annoying reminder on my pc for me to install Windows 10.

Should I?

Do you feel lucky today?

Well do you, punk?

Posted by: Dirty Harry at December 01, 2015 05:17 PM (8ZskC)

384 Posted by: Navycopjoe at December 01, 2015 05:16 PM (MejEz)

I was wondering when you would chime in.

Posted by: Golfman at December 01, 2015 05:17 PM (flLNR)

385 I see people still don't understand what police are and what their role is.

Police officers are agents of the state, they are empowered and have a duty to enforce the laws of the state.

They have been granted the authority to arrest those individuals who are perccieved to be breaking the laws of the state.

Furthermore, they have been granted the authority to use force to enforce these laws and affectuate an arrest, up to and including deadly force if they perceive a threat to themselves or other individuals.

I do not know the mental state of the officer or whether he percieved a deadly threat to himself or others.

And it seems some believe the officers should just lets this armed criminal walk all over Chicago until he felt like being compliant.

That's not how it works, that's not how any of this works.

Posted by: Kreplach at December 01, 2015 05:17 PM (WVvzl)

386
Purchased a Bluetooth transmitter for the TV. Streaming to my Mini-Jambox so I don't disturb Golflady in the bedroom while I'm watching TV in the den. Bluetooth speaker works quite well in the coffee table for my hard of hearing self.

How much?

�Cu�nto cuesta?

Posted by: Soothsayer the autoresponsebot at December 01, 2015 05:17 PM (sixca)

387 As far as I know generally, self defense allows a bit of over kill in an emergency and moment of stress. So yeah, you didn't really need to shoot that guy 11 times, but once you are justified in opening fire with lethal force, it doesn't matter how many times you shot them.

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at December 01, 2015 05:17 PM (39g3+)

388 For $6, delievered to my door, I now have bluetooth on my pc via a dongle.

Also just bought a USB 4-port hub to add extra usb slots to my. $7, delivered to my door.

Today, I found a vintageb switch-box that will allow me to connect four of my 8-bit computers to the same monitor and switch between them. This solves a huge problem in putting together My Man-Cave.

Posted by: Pappy O'Daniel at December 01, 2015 05:18 PM (oVJmc)

389 376. If it's a newer computer running 8 then yes
An older running 7 no

Posted by: Navycopjoe at December 01, 2015 05:18 PM (KtJyl)

390 McCarthy was not well liked by the cops and came across like a bumbler. He also kissed ass of the professional protestors like Father PFlammer. (How did that work out for him?) On Friday at a press conference McCarthy was asked about his job and he said the mayor told him he had his back. With a knife in it. This is just more red meat for the mob. Which was protesting in front of City Hall yesterday. They want Rahm's scalp too.

Posted by: TheQuietMan at December 01, 2015 05:18 PM (493sH)

391
Stupid black diamonds.

Stupid blog.

Posted by: Soothsayer the autoresponsebot at December 01, 2015 05:18 PM (sixca)

392 Though Tecmo is officially denying it, it seems the Soviet Justice Wanker infested West will not be getting the next offering in the Dead or Alive franchise.

http://preview.tinyurl.com/okfpusn

Posted by: Anna Puma at December 01, 2015 05:18 PM (Dq9lL)

393 I said it's a stretch. That is all. Don't put words in my mouth.
Posted by: Nevergiveup at December 01, 2015 05:13 PM (gf8BH)

"Hey Bob, do you love your wife?"
"That's a stretch."

Question: does Bob love his wife?

I'm done now, have a good evening with the guy in my nick.

Posted by: Ghost of kari at December 01, 2015 05:18 PM (FfVIs)

394 "This thread is wrought with sexual tension."

It's been the theme of the day.

Posted by: Ricardo Kill at December 01, 2015 05:18 PM (LA7Cm)

395 Isn't the story here the corruption of Chicago? Or is that such a given that it isn't a story?
Posted by: Bandersnatch at December 01, 2015 05:09 PM (1xUj/)

Mrs. O'Leary's cow didn't kick enough of them.

Posted by: Misanthropic Humanitarian at December 01, 2015 05:18 PM (mxCgt)

396 Tell me how this makes Dirty Harry here look good in the presence of all those other officers?

Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at December 01, 2015 04:49 PM (659DL)

It doesn't. But a man with a knife within 20 feet is still objectively a danger to a gun wielder.

Just as a drunk man with a gun is still a threat, even if he looks too drunk to be effective with it.

That's all there is to the disagreement.

Posted by: ReactionaryMonster at December 01, 2015 05:18 PM (0NdlF)

397 372 Posted by: Insomniac - Pale Horse/Death 2016 at December 01, 2015 05:14 PM (kpqmD)

Because it's insane to say something can be both instantaneous and premeditated at the same time.
Posted by: Max Rockatansky at December 01, 2015 05:15 PM (+Q9b4)

That shows you don't understand the elements of first degree murder and the formation of intent. The formation of intent can take place at the speed of though. Now, it can be more difficult to prove when things happen quickly, but I can form the intent to kill, just like anyone else, in an instant, the same way you can form the intent to raid the fridge, pick your nose, or turn on the TV.

Posted by: Insomniac - Pale Horse/Death 2016 at December 01, 2015 05:19 PM (kpqmD)

398 Email works like shit on 10.

Posted by: eleven at December 01, 2015 05:19 PM (rjtGa)

399 384. I was at the range trying to figure out this damn 64 degree wedge
Not working right it seems

Posted by: Navycopjoe at December 01, 2015 05:19 PM (MejEz)

400 Self-defense and other doctrines are from a reasonable person standard, no? In that case, these contextual details matter. Was he some random kid that just left glee club practice or a hardened, intoxicated perp who was hell-bent on evading LE and even taunting police and using violence in his attempt to flee?

Shit like that matters to the perception of the threat.
Posted by: rebel flounder at December 01, 2015 05:16 PM (3dOE/)

Not if there was no reason to be in fear of death or grave bodily harm... which there wasn't.

So other things may be mitigating for sentencing I guess. But to claim self defense, you need to first and foremost be in fear for your life.

Posted by: Harry Paratestes at December 01, 2015 05:20 PM (AkOaV)

401 Some people are such assholes

Posted by: Nevergiveup at December 01, 2015 05:20 PM (gf8BH)

402 Here's to new content before the ONT for y'all.

Have a good night gang.

Posted by: Ghost of kari at December 01, 2015 05:20 PM (FfVIs)

403 "Son you ain't in this for the hunting are you?"

Posted by: Jukin, Former Republican at December 01, 2015 05:05 PM (AhyHb)

Old joke, but well done.

Posted by: Nip Sip at December 01, 2015 05:20 PM (jJRIy)

404 Yossef Romano was shot while trying to fight the terrorists at the beginning of their attack. They left him to bleed out before the eyes of his fellow athletes, and castrated him. The others were brutally beaten.

Nice ha? Hey let's give em a State

State of rigor mortis.

Posted by: rickb223 at December 01, 2015 05:20 PM (+ZSW1)

405 The little pipsqueak Mayor should be horsewhipped in the town square and then banished to the wilderness. Naked and bloody.

Posted by: Fritz at December 01, 2015 05:20 PM (3tjn4)

406 In your enraged, spittle-flecked rant you did nothing to explain why you take issue with the concept of premeditation with regard to the crime of murder. What is your precise objection, other than it being "insane" "stupid" and "ridiculous shit"?

Posted by: Insomniac - Pale Horse/Death 2016 at December 01, 2015 05:14 PM (kpqmD)

*spittle*
I take offense to the idiocy of "instant premeditation".
*spittle*

But I've heard these sorts of arguments from lawyers before. It's an abuse of the language that our courts love to roll around in like pigs in shit.

Posted by: ThePrimordialOrderedPair at December 01, 2015 05:21 PM (zc3Db)

407 Nice ha? Hey let's give em a State

Posted by: Nevergiveup at December 01, 2015 05:16 PM (gf8BH)

And Nooks. FTW.

Posted by: Golfman at December 01, 2015 05:21 PM (flLNR)

408 Okay, so that totalitarian fascist corporatist Bill Gates somehow
installed an annoying reminder on my pc for me to install Windows 10.

Should I?

Wait for the Ubuntu button to appear.

Posted by: Pappy O'Daniel at December 01, 2015 05:21 PM (oVJmc)

409
The NY Times is only half right on this one. Sure, the delay might have helped Emmanuel get reelected, but the prime reason was to keep the BLM crowd agitated.

The Democrat machine understands Hillary needs the same kind of record black voter turnout that Obama got. And they realize the only way they can get it is to make black voters very angry.

Expect the Democrats and MSM to periodically dole out fuel to keep the black anger burning. I'm sure they have a calendar marked with their plan to ramp up black anger as the election nears.

I predict a long, hot, violent summer.

Posted by: Ed Anger at December 01, 2015 05:21 PM (RcpcZ)

410
If it's a newer computer running 8 then yes
An older running 7 no

I have a 3 yr old notebook with Win 8.1 Pro.

So what you're saying is: Win 7 > Win 10 > Win 8?

Posted by: Soothsayer the autoresponsebot at December 01, 2015 05:21 PM (sixca)

411 Hey let's give em a State

Nope, force one on them then take it away and expel them.

Posted by: DaveA at December 01, 2015 05:22 PM (DL2i+)

412 401 Some people are such assholes
Posted by: Nevergiveup at December 01, 2015 05:20 PM (gf8BH)

You're just now noticing this?

Posted by: Insomniac - Pale Horse/Death 2016 at December 01, 2015 05:22 PM (kpqmD)

413 398
Email works like shit on 10.

Posted by: eleven at December 01, 2015 05:19 PM (rjtGa)

Uninstall it. I have had three friends that have been totally f ked by it. It is not secure and they all got virus using it.

Posted by: Nip Sip at December 01, 2015 05:22 PM (jJRIy)

414 Posted by: Harry Paratestes at December 01, 2015 05:17 PM (AkOaV)

Do you know the definition of meditation?

Posted by: Max Rockatansky at December 01, 2015 05:22 PM (+Q9b4)

415 Expect the Democrats and MSM to periodically dole out fuel to keep the black anger burning. I'm sure they have a calendar marked with their plan to ramp up black anger as the election nears.

It would be deliciously ironic if many of them go Trump.

Illegals are a serious threat to black interests.

Posted by: ReactionaryMonster at December 01, 2015 05:23 PM (0NdlF)

416 "This thread is wrought with sexual tension."

LOL Well, considering most of the tense people are men interacting with other men, that could be problematic. ;^)

Posted by: FenelonSpoke at December 01, 2015 05:23 PM (No/ki)

417 Some bad news for the globull warmunists. Some Russkie scientists (and one of them is a she, and hot) have a developed a new model for sunspot activity. It's a "double dynamo" model (apparently means two internal dynamo configurations, north and southern hemispheres), and it correlates 97% with past solar cycles. Previously, no model could match this well.

Well, running the model into the future and it predicts another "Maunder minimum" phase starting around 2030. This means a mini-Ice Age as when the River Thames froze over. The two dynamo "waves" will align 180 degrees out of phase so to speak then according to the model, and that will produce a sunspot minimum.

There will likely be much famine and economic devastation from another Maunder minimum in the modern age.

And it will totally destroy the Warmunist bullshit.

Posted by: publius (not Breitbart publius) at December 01, 2015 05:23 PM (dvuhZ)

418 Uninstall it. I have had three friends that have been totally f ked by it. It is not secure and they all got virus using it.

I don't really mind the email sucking. I'm not a big emailer.

But most people are so for them I would avoid 10.

Posted by: eleven at December 01, 2015 05:24 PM (rjtGa)

419 387 As far as I know generally, self defense allows a bit of over kill in an emergency and moment of stress. So yeah, you didn't really need to shoot that guy 11 times, but once you are justified in opening fire with lethal force, it doesn't matter how many times you shot them.
Posted by: Christopher Taylor at December 01, 2015 05:17 PM (39g3+)

Not really.

It's kind of a paradox:

In order to use deadly force, you need to be in fear for your life.
If you're in fear for your life, then you would use as much force as necessary to stop the threat.

Now if you say "He had a knife, I got scared, and tried to kill him!" then OOPS, probably not self defense.

If you say "he had a knife, I was in fear for my life, and I shot him until he ceased being a threat" then you're good. Now ceased being a threat does not necessarily mean "dead" but it calls in to question how much fear you were really in if you shoot him, say, once in the arm then stop shooting.

Posted by: Harry Paratestes at December 01, 2015 05:24 PM (AkOaV)

420 Posted by: Navycopjoe at December 01, 2015 05:19 PM (MejEz)

Turn it down to 61 degrees. Then the bounce will work properly.

And then think of a basket on top of the flag. FLY it in the basket.

Posted by: Golfman at December 01, 2015 05:24 PM (flLNR)

421 410. In a nutshell yes
413. Really? Thing I like the most is the 8 drivers work with it

Posted by: Navycopjoe at December 01, 2015 05:24 PM (3f8gu)

422 Some Russkie scientists (and one of them is a she, and hot)

Pics or it didn't happen.

Posted by: ReactionaryMonster at December 01, 2015 05:25 PM (0NdlF)

423 You're just now noticing this?
Posted by: Insomniac - Pale Horse/Death 2016 at December 01, 2015 05:22 PM (kpqmD)

No, just my tolerance meter is damn near empty

Posted by: Nevergiveup at December 01, 2015 05:25 PM (gf8BH)

424 Do you know the definition of meditation?
Posted by: Max Rockatansky at December 01, 2015 05:22 PM (+Q9b4)

google: the action or practice of meditating.

Posted by: Harry Paratestes at December 01, 2015 05:25 PM (AkOaV)

425 I haven't clicked the Drudge link on the bear rape movie, but wonder about who would want to see this. And, well, why? Is there documentation of bear rapes? Did Leo carry a mattress around in the movie? wut

I have a teeny bit of knowledge, but don't look, regarding Catherine the Great and stallions. And, of course, goat herding isis types.

Another movie, in other words, I will never see nor want to see. Hollywood should just start over with Lassie or something fairly normal.

Posted by: ChristyBlinky, aging supermodel Redneck Queen at December 01, 2015 05:26 PM (Mopd7)

426 I predict a long, hot, violent summer.

Posted by: Ed Anger at December 01, 2015 05:21 PM (RcpcZ)

We had those a couple of years ago. The "youths" were attacking people on North Ave and Oak Street beaches and the city claimed people were over come by the heat. The "youths" were attacking people on Michigan Ave. and breaking windows to rob the store fronts. Things were out of control. Michigan Ave. started to look like a riot zone with cops and mounted patrols up and down the street. The "youths" were mostly attacking whites or people who had something they wanted to steal. The professional protestors were all silent about that

Posted by: TheQuietMan at December 01, 2015 05:26 PM (493sH)

427 423 You're just now noticing this?
Posted by: Insomniac - Pale Horse/Death 2016 at December 01, 2015 05:22 PM (kpqmD)

No, just my tolerance meter is damn near empty
Posted by: Nevergiveup at December 01, 2015 05:25 PM (gf8BH)

Heh. Yeah, I know what you mean.

Posted by: Insomniac - Pale Horse/Death 2016 at December 01, 2015 05:26 PM (kpqmD)

428 >>LOL Well, considering most of the tense people are men interacting with other men, that could be problematic. ;^)

Uh huh.

Posted by: Bear with a Boner at December 01, 2015 05:26 PM (/tuJf)

429 Does anyone know the biggest mistake made after the Chicago fire?

The answer is easy.

Posted by: Soona at December 01, 2015 05:26 PM (Fmupd)

430 I just bought a dongle. You know what a dongle is?

It's that thing that gets you fired if you make jokes about it when there's a SJW crybully present.

Posted by: Blanco Basura at December 01, 2015 05:26 PM (YEelc)

431 Posted by: eleven at December 01, 2015 05:24 PM (rjtGa)

Odd. A co-worker who is very computer savvy is having big problems after upgrading. Blamed his wife for viruses and computer hasn't been right since.

Posted by: Golfman at December 01, 2015 05:26 PM (flLNR)

432 Does anyone know the biggest mistake made after the Chicago fire?

Rebuilding.

Posted by: Blanco Basura at December 01, 2015 05:27 PM (YEelc)

433 Posted by: ThePrimordialOrderedPair at December 01, 2015 05:09 PM (zc3Db)
--

Cops use lethal force to stop lethal threats. They are using it to "end the threat". If the force is justified, then killing him is justified. So a cop can say "I intended to kill him because my use of force was enough to stop the threat, a threat that required him to die". So you have to use the level of force necessary to stop the threat.

So what was the threat level? To whom was it directed? What there any other option? This is not just legal second guessing, this is use of force procedure.

He could have TASERed him and no one would have bitched. he could have waited until the guy made a more certain move toward the officers (that doesn't mean wrestle with him).

But 16 shots? No shoot out? Most shot on the guy while laying down (allegedly)? Who was not attacking the officers? Who had a knife?

So why not 24 shots? Why not run him over with the car afterward? Grab his knife and "Walker" him in the temple? Because that's more than stopping the imminent threat, that's shooting Jason Voorhees to make sure he doesn't come back in Part II.

He didn't want the threat stopped, he clearly wanted him dead. Sixteen shots, in that situation, reveals motive. Remember, these are trained officers, not Joe Blow wildly shooting to defend his crib.

Posted by: Saltydonnie at December 01, 2015 05:27 PM (i6shs)

434 Bill Gates somehow
installed an annoying reminder on my pc for me to install Windows 10.

You can choose between Windows 10 and Ungabunga...

My brother has had problems with Microsoft Main programs on Win 10, its just a bit twitchy right now. They'll get it all worked out eventually but its a bit of a mess. At least they moved away from the idiotic tablet control idea of Windows 8

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at December 01, 2015 05:27 PM (39g3+)

435 420. I put a ball basket at 20 and 30 yds
Seems like I get a power scoop and it goes maybe 10-15
That or I blade it and off it goes

I'll try that, should help

Posted by: Navycopjoe at December 01, 2015 05:27 PM (KtJyl)

436 but warming will cause an ice age

havent you heard?

thats why its called climate change and not global warming now

because even if the globe doesnt warm, the climate will always change

Posted by: ThunderB at December 01, 2015 05:27 PM (zOTsN)

437 Posted by: Insomniac - Pale Horse/Death 2016 at December 01, 2015 05:19 PM (

We are not arguing the evolving definition of legal logic. We are saying its insane and illogical.

Posted by: Max Rockatansky at December 01, 2015 05:28 PM (+Q9b4)

438 Does anyone know the biggest mistake made after the Chicago fire?

The answer is easy.

Posted by: Soona at December 01, 2015 05:26 PM (Fmupd)

Shooting Anton Cermak and not FDR?

Posted by: TheQuietMan at December 01, 2015 05:28 PM (493sH)

439 I'm thinking Chicago's chickens are going to now come home to roost. They thought it was bad last weekend, wait until the blue flu hits (see: Baltimore).

Posted by: ChristyBlinky, aging supermodel Redneck Queen at December 01, 2015 05:28 PM (Mopd7)

440 @417 I, bitterly, disagree. When we hit that Minimum, it will serve as "proof" that the quatrotrillions spent on Stopping Glowbull Warmening is working, after all.

They won't let up; they will go for more. And those in famine and devastation will be told to sit down and shut up for the good of Mother Gaia.

Posted by: Stringer Davis at December 01, 2015 05:29 PM (xq1UY)

441 But 16 shots? No shoot out? Most shot on the guy while laying down (allegedly)? Who was not attacking the officers? Who had a knife?

So why not 24 shots? Why not run him over with the car afterward? Grab his knife and "Walker" him in the temple? Because that's more than stopping the imminent threat, that's shooting Jason Voorhees to make sure he doesn't come back in Part II.

He didn't want the threat stopped, he clearly wanted him dead. Sixteen shots, in that situation, reveals motive. Remember, these are trained officers, not Joe Blow wildly shooting to defend his crib.

Posted by: Saltydonnie at December 01, 2015 05:27 PM (i6shs)

this

all of this

Posted by: ThunderB at December 01, 2015 05:29 PM (zOTsN)

442 425. Is there documentation of bear rapes?

Yep, just ask Rodgers what happened last Thursday night

Posted by: Navycopjoe at December 01, 2015 05:29 PM (3f8gu)

443 437 Posted by: Insomniac - Pale Horse/Death 2016 at December 01, 2015 05:19 PM (

We are not arguing the evolving definition of legal logic. We are saying its insane and illogical.
Posted by: Max Rockatansky at December 01, 2015 05:28 PM (+Q9b4)

You do realize that this is nothing new, right? I'm afraid that your and primordial soup's hate-ons for lawyers, the law a d the legal system are preventing you from understanding the concept, which really very simple.

Posted by: Insomniac - Pale Horse/Death 2016 at December 01, 2015 05:30 PM (kpqmD)

444 I mean, they were able to keep the dash cam video on the downlow for over a year...

Posted by: Harry Paratestes at December 01, 2015 05:15 PM (AkOaV)
---
Keepin' the video on the down low is one thing; destroying it or tampering with it is another. Then the shooting officer ain't the only one goin' to jail. I'd want the case investigated before the video leaked, but then again, it's Chicago, and Rahm.

Posted by: Saltydonnie at December 01, 2015 05:31 PM (i6shs)

445 i]Sixteen shots, in that situation, reveals motive. Remember, these are trained officers, not Joe Blow wildly shooting to defend his crib.

Probably, but I'm not going to presume anything without all the details. The information as you present it does seem to suggest an intent to kill instead of stop a threat but on its own its not sufficient to convict.

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at December 01, 2015 05:31 PM (39g3+)

446 Wow I typoed the hell out of that last comment.

Posted by: Insomniac - Pale Horse/Death 2016 at December 01, 2015 05:32 PM (kpqmD)

447 No, just my tolerance meter is damn near empty
Posted by: Nevergiveup at December 01, 2015 05:25 PM (gf8BH)

-------------------

Probably like the cops in Chicago.

Posted by: Soona at December 01, 2015 05:32 PM (Fmupd)

448 422:

http://preview.tinyurl.com/nlb5xxt

The babe doing the talking in that video may just be a spokeswoman, though, I'm not sure. She's talking Russkie, not 'Merican and I no unnerstand.

Posted by: publius (not Breitbart publius) at December 01, 2015 05:33 PM (dvuhZ)

449 I'm thinking Chicago's chickens are going to now come home to roost. They thought it was bad last weekend, wait until the blue flu hits (see: Baltimore).

What's up there?

Posted by: rickb223 at December 01, 2015 05:33 PM (+ZSW1)

450
ISIS space program. LOL

http://___ur.com/gallery/G0DdQ2O

Posted by: Bear With a Wang! at December 01, 2015 05:33 PM (iQIUe)

451 So why not 24 shots?

Chances are good he emptied his gun once, without reloading.

16 shots is 1 magazine + 1 in chamber for some common police gun models.

Posted by: ReactionaryMonster at December 01, 2015 05:33 PM (0NdlF)

452 Posted by: Insomniac - Pale Horse/Death 2016 at December 01, 2015 05:30 PM (kpqmD)

I love it when lawyers tell me I just don't understand. A million lawyers can believe a foolish thing but it doesn't make it not foolish. You want me to list any one of thousands legal theories that have been turned on their head with a different legal theory?

Posted by: Max Rockatansky at December 01, 2015 05:34 PM (+Q9b4)

453 Probably, but I'm not going to presume anything without all the details. The information as you present it does seem to suggest an intent to kill instead of stop a threat but on its own its not sufficient to convict.

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at December 01, 2015 05:31 PM (39g3+)

it is absolutely enough to convict and you are 100% wrong

Posted by: ThunderB at December 01, 2015 05:34 PM (zOTsN)

454 Posted by: Insomniac - Pale Horse/Death 2016 at December 01, 2015 05:32 PM (kpqmD)

Nah as far as typos, you're an amateur; I'm professional level. Unfortunately, nobody is paying me for typos.

Posted by: FenelonSpoke at December 01, 2015 05:34 PM (No/ki)

455 Here is an indespensible article from the indespensible Andrew Branca on this shooting..

http://tinyurl.com/pd3vwrm

Be sure to wade into the comments as well as Mr. Branca destroys many of the similar arguments made on this site with regards, percieved threat, use of force, number of shots, etc.

Take away, the cop will more than likely walk and Chicago will burn just in time for the Presidential election.

Posted by: Kreplach at December 01, 2015 05:36 PM (WVvzl)

456
Forgot Imgur is a pain in the butt. Try this:

http://goo.gl/zD87Sz

Posted by: Bear With a Wang! at December 01, 2015 05:36 PM (iQIUe)

457
proceed to nood

Posted by: Soothsayer the autoresponsebot at December 01, 2015 05:37 PM (sixca)

458 As to the kid's graduation photo; this guy was a ward of the state since he was 5.

That's probably the only photo that exists of him in his teens that doesn't involve obscene gestures, gang signs, or holding an info card for the police photographer.

Sounds mean, but that's the world there.

Posted by: Sort-of-Mad Max at December 01, 2015 05:37 PM (DLu2s)

459 435 420. I put a ball basket at 20 and 30 yds
Seems like I get a power scoop and it goes maybe 10-15
That or I blade it and off it goes

I'll try that, should help
Posted by: Navycopjoe at December 01, 2015 05:27 PM (KtJyl)

Have your local shop adjust the wedge. I have a friend on tour (whose dad frequents the HQ) changed the loft on his 64 to 61. It is magic.

Power scoop? Ain't heard that one.

Those fatty patties come from a decel. Adjust your backswing for distance but you must always accelerate through the ball.

Posted by: Golfman at December 01, 2015 05:38 PM (48QDY)

460 452 Posted by: Insomniac - Pale Horse/Death 2016 at December 01, 2015 05:30 PM (kpqmD)

I love it when lawyers tell me I just don't understand. A million lawyers can believe a foolish thing but it doesn't make it not foolish. You want me to list any one of thousands legal theories that have been turned on their head with a different legal theory?
Posted by: Max Rockatansky at December 01, 2015 05:34 PM (+Q9b4)

It's pretty clear you don't get it, despite the third-grade level explanation I have you. Do you take days on end to decide whether or not to open the refrigerator? Or turn on the television? Or does it happen in a moment? And that is the point - the intent to do something, including kill another human being, can be formed just as fast. Why do you find this to be insane? I'd say your visceral reaction to a long-established and easily-understood legal concept could be characterized as foolish and insane just as easily, if not more so.

Posted by: Insomniac - Pale Horse/Death 2016 at December 01, 2015 05:38 PM (kpqmD)

461 I'm afraid that your and primordial soup's hate-ons for lawyers, the law a d the legal system are preventing you from understanding the concept, which really very simple.

Posted by: Insomniac - Pale Horse/Death 2016 at December 01, 2015 05:30 PM (kpqmD)

LOL. You're going to teach me logic? Okey doke. And you (and the rest of the legal beagles) have the key to "intent" and conscious thought all wrapped up? That's pretty funny ... as no one even has a clue what consciousness is, to begin with. But you guys are going to lecture me on "what constitutes conscious action and the instantaneous intent behind it".

You really think a bit much of yourself and don't seem to have the least respect for the concepts you claim to have mastered.

This is why we end up with the bullshit insanity defenses and the rest of the crap that makes up the legal system's "theory of Consciousness and Free Will" that is nothing but an inconsistent system you guys like to play around with pretending that it's even close to some system of formal logic.

Then again ... courts have sworn in separate "personalities" of schizos ... so I can't say that any of this has ever surprised me.

But, go ahead and lecture me abnout the nature of the mind and what constitutes conscious thought and how intent and emotion are connected and all the particulars that you seem to think you're master of ... Continue on ...

Posted by: ThePrimordialOrderedPair at December 01, 2015 05:39 PM (zc3Db)

462 Posted by: ThePrimordialOrderedPair at December 01, 2015 05:39 PM (zc3Db)

That's one hell of a strawman you just burned. You seem to have a lot of arrogance and hatred you need to work through.

Posted by: Insomniac - Pale Horse/Death 2016 at December 01, 2015 05:41 PM (kpqmD)

463 Posted by: Insomniac - Pale Horse/Death 2016 at December 01, 2015 05:38 PM (kpqmD

Premeditation does not occur spontaneously or in an instant no matter what legal theory you present. Premeditation requires one to contemplate . By definition that is the opposite of spontaneous.

Posted by: Max Rockatansky at December 01, 2015 05:44 PM (+Q9b4)

464 Do you take days on end to decide whether or not to open the refrigerator? Or turn on the television? Or does it happen in a moment? And that is the point - the intent to do something, including kill another human being, can be formed just as fast. Why do you find this to be insane?

Posted by: Insomniac - Pale Horse/Death 2016 at December 01, 2015 05:38 PM (kpqmD)

Those acts occur without any intent, Einstein. You don't think about opening the refrigerator, you just open it. You don't say to yourself, "I'm going to turn the TV on," you just turn it on. These are acts taht are not conscious - just as speaking or writing or pretty much everything of the sort. These are not acts of conscious thought. You want to know what speaking as an act of conscious thought is, then try to learn another language, and as you have to translate every word in your conscious mind to one in English and then translate back into the new language as you speak ... THAT is an act of conscious thought and may involve some intent (though the words you are forming in your native language just appear and are not "intent" driven in any conscious way.

Thank you for your examples. You have proven my point and shown that you don't understand conscious thought, at all, and really have no idea how the mind works.

I rest my case.

Posted by: ThePrimordialOrderedPair at December 01, 2015 05:45 PM (zc3Db)

465
Ahhhh

A thread about the land of glory....Chicago

And MILITARIZED THUG COPS!!!!!11!!! too

Woohoo!!!!

Posted by: NavycopjoeEdited for effect.

Posted by: Moderate Salami, weeping for our dead Republic at December 01, 2015 05:48 PM (/Ho8c)

466 premeditation, as understood by the ordinary citizen, and laws are written for the ordinary citizen, not the expert philosopher, requires some planning before hand, some preparation, some thought before the moment of action.

Facing a dangerous threat to one's life and thinking "I have to stop this guy" is not premeditation in the mind of the layperson. Thinking in the moment that "I have to kill this person to stop him" is not premeditation in the mind of an ordinary person.

Saying otherwise, and presenting years of legal study, a long list of credentials, and years of practice is not persuasive when we ordinary people are surrounded daily by threats to our existence. Threats that are allowed to roam free because of expert opinion telling us ordinary guys what it is we should be thinking as the barbarian saws at our throat with a rusty butter knife.

Posted by: Lester Flaggines at December 01, 2015 05:50 PM (PLZH5)

467 352
Absolutely justified, first few shots, to remove the threat. After being immobilized on the ground, is where the justification ceases and we start talking murder 1 versus manslaughter.

Unless the cop uttered on the radio something about intent to "put him down," you don't get murder 1 without an OJ-social-justice jury.

Posted by: rebel flounder at December 01, 2015 05:05 PM (3dOE/)

No, none of thats right. And if you have a gun, please please please read up on self defense laws.

aoshq lurker Andrew Branca actually has a book on the subject. Great read, I'd encourage everyone to check it out

Posted by: Harry Paratestes at December 01, 2015 05:10 PM (AkOaV)

You could point out where any of that is wrong with particularity and we could discuss. Otherwise its just words from some guy on the internet.

Posted by: rebel flounder at December 01, 2015 05:53 PM (3dOE/)

468 357
Unless the cop uttered on the radio something about intent to "put him down," you don't get murder 1 without an OJ-social-justice jury.

Posted by: rebel flounder at December 01, 2015 05:05 PM (3dOE/)

this is not true and it is not the law.

Posted by: ThunderB at December 01, 2015 05:12 PM (zOTsN)

OK. I worded that poorly. Practically speaking, It will be more difficult to prove murder 1, not impossible, and certainly not impossible to get a murder 1 conviction in today's SJW-amped up world.

Posted by: rebel flounder at December 01, 2015 05:56 PM (3dOE/)

469 Posted by: Lester Flaggines at December 01, 2015 05:50 PM (PLZH5)

It's not a matter of any of these guys being an expert philosopher. Quite the opposite. They don't understand consciousness, intent or the working of the mind, at all, but they love to pretend they do.

The fact is, when it comes down to it, there is no proof of any sort of free will (the concept, itself, clashes with the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics) which the legal geniuses will argue (when it suits them) should lead to a person not being liable for their actions, as there was no free will involved in the decision. But any human decision can be reduced to the point where no one can find any "free will" in it. There's nothing clever about that and to abuse it (as lawyers do) is to merely destabilize a system that is built on imperfect human language, to start with (let alone the intricacies of the working mind).

There is a good deal of research being done these days trying to find the physiology of the conscious mind or evidence of any sort of free will (though most scientists will readily admit that the free will quest is bound to be fruitless). But these lawyers and judges have it all figured out! We are just lucky that they deign to stoop to our level and lay some truth on us about how human minds work.

It's almost comical. Their arrogance about what they think they know would be funny in any other field.

Posted by: ThePrimordialOrderedPair at December 01, 2015 05:58 PM (zc3Db)

470 Posted by: Christopher Taylor at December 01, 2015 05:31 PM (39g3+)
--

Exactly. That's why juries are for.

Posted by: Saltydonnie at December 01, 2015 05:59 PM (i6shs)

471 Those acts occur without any intent, Einstein. You don't think about opening the refrigerator, you just open it. You don't say to yourself, "I'm going to turn the TV on," you just turn it on. These are acts taht are not conscious - just as speaking or writing or pretty much everything of the sort. These are not acts of conscious thought. You want to know what speaking as an act of conscious thought is, then try to learn another language, and as you have to translate every word in your conscious mind to one in English and then translate back into the new language as you speak ... THAT is an act of conscious thought and may involve some intent (though the words you are forming in your native language just appear and are not "intent" driven in any conscious way.

Posted by: ThePrimordialOrderedPair at December 01, 2015 05:45 PM (zc3Db)
--

Well, put your resume into the FOP Lodge's. They'd love to have your input on Use of Force policies in re "intent" and "premeditation".

Ah, that IS intent, it is premeditation. You don't NEED to have a running dialogue in your head or vocalize words to evidence intent, you have to act with purpose, and not on accident. I turned the TV on, I planned to, that's why I reached for the remote and hit "power". Why did you do that? No reason? I opened the fridge, I reached for handle, I pulled it out instead of pushing it. Why did I do that instead of, say, pick my nose? I had to have a reason, a motive? Did I bump into it on accident? Did I drop the remote off the table? Did I reach for your arm and grab the fridge handle? This isn't "blinking" or reflexively swatting a fly buzzing at my ear - I turned the tv on to watch a show, I opened the fridge to access its contents.

Posted by: Saltydonnie at December 01, 2015 06:11 PM (i6shs)

472 Ah, that IS intent, it is premeditation. You don't NEED to have a running dialogue in your head or vocalize words to evidence intent, you have to act with purpose, and not on accident.

No. People are compelled to do stuff all the time. Most of what you do is compelled and not thought out or acted on with purpose, at all. "By accident" is not the only alternative - as you should well know.

I turned the TV on, I planned to, that's why I reached for the remote and hit "power".

You think so? You probably turned the TV on because either that thought popped into your conscious or because you acted without thinking about it. Neither of those require intent of any sort. In fact, both are actions that occur without intent. If, on the other hand, you thought to yourself - I want to see XXXX - and then turned on the TV then you can have a case for intent. Of course, not an intent to turn the TV on but an intent to see something that was on TV.

Why did you do that? No reason?

Ideas just pop into people's minds. That's how it works. That's how the words are typed by you onto the page. It is not a conscious act. Even if you pause and are "searching" for a word, that isn't conscious, either. You just sit and wait until that word pops into your mind. If it comes, good - that is what makes some people writers and others near-illiterate. It isn't any act of conscious or any purposeful act but merely how ones mind works (on its own).

I opened the fridge, I reached for handle, I pulled it out instead of pushing it. Why did I do that instead of, say, pick my nose? I had to have a reason, a motive? Did I bump into it on accident? Did I drop the remote off the table? Did I reach for your arm and grab the fridge handle? This isn't "blinking" or reflexively swatting a fly buzzing at my ear - I turned the tv on to watch a show, I opened the fridge to access its contents.

Posted by: Saltydonnie at December 01, 2015 06:11 PM (i6shs)

Those acts are no different from blinking. You have no control over what pops into your consciousness. If you did then that non-conscious part would be ... conscious.

This is the problem with trying to analyze these workings of the mind too closely. There is a certain resolution of thought that we cannot go beyond without running into contradictions and silliness at every point. There are concepts that only exist at a macro level and fall apart if you zoom them in to view them microscopically, which is what lawyers and our courts love to do.

As I wrote earlier, human language is very imprecise, itself. Our law is built on human language and must come to terms with the imprecision and ACCEPT that there is only so fine a grain that can be examined while maintaining any sort of sense or reason.

Premeditation is a concept that cannot be analyzed "in the instant". To do so is to make a mockery of law, logic, and the workings of the mind. You guys want to make up a legal fiction about human minds for use in the courts? Fine. but don't kid yourselves into thinking that you are speaking about anything that is connected to reality or are addressing anything real about the mind. You are not. You are just making up BS notions of the mind to carry out games in court. As long as you remember that things are fine. But you have to understand that what you think is "real" in court or law school as regards the mind and consciousness and intent and free will and the rest are nothing but inaccurate games that you have made up to build a system. That's all they are.

Posted by: ThePrimordialOrderedPair at December 01, 2015 06:31 PM (zc3Db)

473 Posted by: Saltydonnie at December 01, 2015 06:11 PM (i6shs)

Again we are not arguing the legal standard and definitions that you guys have created. We are saying that those definitions have no basis in reality other than the legal logic it took to come up with it.

Posted by: Max Rockatansky at December 01, 2015 06:32 PM (+Q9b4)

474 Yep. MR and TPOP, you are arguing the common understanding of intent and premeditation, whereas salty donnie and insomniac are referring to the evidentiary standard by which one is shown to have the requisite intent for a murder 1 conviction.

As I noted, absent clear acts that have no other reasonable interpretation (the facts do here), intent here is a legal fiction created by inferences from the other facts here (the total number of shots). There are many other alternative reasonable explanations for his actions that would tend to disprove the officer had the requisite intent for a murder 1 conviction.

And to Hairy Pair who cited Andrew Branca as authority on this, you might want to review his work on the subject.

Spoiler Alert: He disagrees with you.

http://legalinsurrection.com/2015/11/ laquana-mcdonald-video-simply-not-dispositive-of-police-misconduct/

Posted by: rebel flounder at December 01, 2015 06:52 PM (3dOE/)

475 tueller drill. A person with a knife can close twenty feet before the average cop can draw and hit a target. Like one point five seconds. It's been tested. It was a joke on the final season of justified by the way. Rayland said " Donnie you know I can back up right?"

However. If you watch the video the cop drew and pointed his weapon upon exiting cruiser. Nothing wrong with that but the tueller equation not applicable. It might have been a valid shoot at first. But it looks like he dead on the ground and chunks of asphalt are still flying up from stray rounds. And they erased surveillance tapes. Consciousness of guilt.

Posted by: simplemind at December 01, 2015 07:13 PM (BTnAK)

476 Poor training. Trigger happy cop. Probably should have never been hired. Cop probably saved several lives by killing this hop head. Cop made the hop head's family rich. Plead to lesser charge and probation. Instead they will give him the death penalty. It would be great if this was a Wild Things copycat crime.

Posted by: serious at December 01, 2015 07:41 PM (PGh+Q)

477 "...and laws are written for the ordinary citizen..."

I don't think so. I don't think that is even pretended (ie lawyers are required, rarely optional). Laws are written so that desired outcomes can be obtained. By lawyers, judges, and politicians. Everyone else has to pay cash.

Posted by: serious at December 01, 2015 07:50 PM (PGh+Q)

478 "...certainly no reason to shoot him 16 times afterward..."

That is what makes me think "scared and poorly trained". Murder would have been once in the head.

Posted by: serious at December 01, 2015 07:53 PM (PGh+Q)

479 Funny thing is, every Chicago cop I know - and I've lived in the city for 60 years - hates Emmanuel's guts.

Also, much of the organized BLM support comes from the teachers' and transit-workers unions: Emmanuel has tried to initiate some modest reforms, so, of course, he must be driven from office. The unions were also instrumental in Garcia's campaign, and nearly got that nonentity elected mayor.

Emmanuel is a sleazy, corrupt bastard. But he's also the best of them - and just how sad is that?

Posted by: Brown Line at December 01, 2015 10:31 PM (a5bF3)

480 You probably turned the TV on because either that thought popped into
your conscious or because you acted without thinking about it. Neither
of those require intent of any sort. In fact, both are actions that
occur without intent. If, on the other hand, you thought to yourself - I
want to see XXXX - and then turned on the TV then you can have a case
for intent. Of course, not an intent to turn the TV on but an intent to
see something that was on TV.

...

Those acts are no different from blinking. You have no control over what pops into your consciousness.

Posted by: ThePrimordialOrderedPair at December 01, 2015 06:31 PM (zc3Db)

---

That is ludicrous. I have the intent to WATCH TV. That is demonstrated by turning it on. I didn't turn on my Sony 60 inch and expect it to blend a milkshake. I didn't hit power and "guess" as to what would happen as if I've never seen a tv before. I intended t view the moving picture, even if I didn't know what show was on, or how long I planned to watch, etc.

Pulling a trigger SIXTEEN TIMES (allegedly) didn't just "pop" into his consciousness. Shooting someone is NOT the same as breathing or blinking.

Of course I understand legal fictions, but what you outline is unworkable in regard to any system of "law" or "justice". You badmouth lawyers (granted, 95% of us deserve it) but what you propose is so much worse that it shocks the mind. It permits acts that are clearly premeditated to be diminished or excused, and permits dangerous people to remain free because you suggest a "standard" that is anything but. "Hell, I saw a hot chick, I decide to f*ck her. I didn't plan it out, I didn't debate it in my head. I got the urge, I forced myself on her, went thought he motions for 10 minutes, and then I b.s.ed it away as "well, it's like blinking, I couldn't control the urge to rape that popped into my head".

So, to prove my point, when would YOU decide something (like a murder) is premeditated? How would YOU show it? How would you prove it? What time frame are we working from here?

Seriously, if you are as "right" as you claim, prepare a proposal and take it to your local FOP Lodges and advertise your expertise. Because it would permit a lot of cops to mop up their split milk. And a lot of criminals, too.

Posted by: Saltydonnie at December 01, 2015 10:36 PM (zBwYh)

481
http://legalinsurrection.com/2015/11/ laquana-mcdonald-video-simply-not-dispositive-of-police-misconduct/

Posted by: rebel flounder at December 01, 2015 06:52 PM (3dOE/)

---

His argument isn't as convincing as I expected it to be. He makes some good points, and he's right about the law and the Drill, but the video doesn't show that he was justified in continuing to shoot him while on the ground, even if you are trained to empty the gun until the threat has ceased. Where was the threat? A skinny guy already ventilated and twitching on the ground is gonna jump up and shank you 15 to 20 feet away? If he fired off 1 or 2 rounds, and the perp had clearly stepped to him, I could easily see his point. But the cop apparently closed the gap, and had his weapon drawn, which cuts down response time in the Drill. Of course the video is not dispositive, that's why we have jury trials.

Posted by: Saltydonnie at December 01, 2015 10:53 PM (zBwYh)

482 Posted by: Saltydonnie at December 01, 2015 10:36 PM (zBwYh)

I would love to have a full discussion with you about intent and volition and consciousness and free will and all the other aspects of conscious thought, along with the much larger, more powerful ocean of non-conscious activity of the mind, but through blog comments this is really not a practical pursuit.

As to my argument, I am not proposing that this is how the legal system should be run. I am taking your rules of the game and forcing you to see the logical conclusions that can easily be reached. I am not the one who proposed the concept of instantaneous intent, of non-conscious intent (which is really quite an odd concept that exists more as a syntactical construction of language than a representation of any actual idea) or any of the other methods that you (the legal system, in general, I mean) has proposed. Your system is inconsistent, as I have stated, and therefore allows for the deduction of all logical theorems within it. This is the problem when one pursues the completeness of a logical system at the expense of consistency. It is far better to have an incomplete system that is consistent. Far, far better, since an inconsistent logical system can hold no meaning, at all.

I am not the one who would free criminals because of some specious argument about some lack of free will on their part, thereby absolving them of responsibility for their actions. These are the irrational proposals that currently reign in our courts and are the inevitable result of attempts to establish "instantaneous intent" (I mean, come on, really) and even better, "non-conscious intent", which is a contradiction in terms.

Of course, in any case that is allowed to come to trial much of this becomes irrelevant, as the verdict ends up in the hands of the jury and they are left to just make up whatever outcome they are comfortable with, but the court tries to impose the axioms and errant rules of inference on the jury to steer their judgment as the court/legal system wants while alleviating the jurors of any great feeling of guilt or responsibility, and that is wrong.

In any event, this is not really a topic that lends itself to decent debate over a blog. It is a very interesting and important topic - and one that I spent many long hours analyzing when I was working in Mathematics (which is a field that naturally lends itself to these investigations, due to the nature of the work in math) - but, alas,we can just go over little, partial snippets of it, as in this comment. But you have to be aware (and that means "conscious of") that when you propose ideas such as instantaneous intent or non-conscious intent you have opened up a real can of worms that you are bound to logically follow to their conclusions, and you will find that that always leads you to irresolvable problems assigning any sort of responsibility or identifying any bit of free will to hang liability on.

Posted by: ThePrimordialOrderedPair at December 02, 2015 04:39 AM (zc3Db)

483 481

http://legalinsurrection.com/2015/11/ laquana-mcdonald-video-simply-not-dispositive-of-police-misconduct/

Posted by: rebel flounder at December 01, 2015 06:52 PM (3dOE/)

---

His argument isn't as convincing as I expected it to be. He makes some good points, and he's right about the law and the Drill, but the video doesn't show that he was justified in continuing to shoot him while on the ground, even if you are trained to empty the gun until the threat has ceased. Where was the threat? A skinny guy already ventilated and twitching on the ground is gonna jump up and shank you 15 to 20 feet away? If he fired off 1 or 2 rounds, and the perp had clearly stepped to him, I could easily see his point. But the cop apparently closed the gap, and had his weapon drawn, which cuts down response time in the Drill. Of course the video is not dispositive, that's why we have jury trials.

Posted by: Saltydonnie at December 01, 2015 10:53 PM (zBwYh)

I raise the authority only in response to Hairy's demagoguing SD laws by appeal to authority. The authority contradicts his positions and addresses some of the issues you raise. As you know, the standard of beyond reasonable doubt and the presumption of innocence require a strong case be made for intent. From a semi-layperson's perspective, here, the case for intent is an uphill battle (based on the legal requirement and the possibilities that can be argued in defense), and I think it reasonable to grant the benefit of doubt to the officer.

Reasonable persons can and have disagreed on that, again, based solely on the video.

Posted by: Trump at December 02, 2015 09:01 AM (3dOE/)

484 Off fabulous sock.

Posted by: rebel flounder at December 02, 2015 09:02 AM (3dOE/)

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