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Turkey Shoots Down Russian Plane; Syrian Militiamen Shoot At Pilot as He's Parachuting to the Ground

Putin's using a lot of bellicose language.

Russian President Vladimir Putin said the Su-24 was hit by air-to-air missiles fired by Turkish F-16s while it was flying over Syrian territory.

But Turkish military officials said the plane was engaged after being warned that it was violating Turkish airspace.

Mr Putin described the incident as a "stab in the back" committed by "accomplices of terrorists".

Putin claims the plane was wholly in Syrian airpspace. Erdogan says Russia was looking to bomb its allies, the Turkmen (who are not Turks, actually).

There was no ISIS presence along that border area, but there were Turkmen there, Erdogan said. So anyone who bombs that area attacks "our brothers and sisters -- Turkmen," Erdogan said in Ankara. (Turkmen are a Turkic-speaking, traditionally nomadic people who live primarily in Central Asia, but a small minority of them can be found in the Middle East, primarily in northern Iraq, Iran and Turkey.)

Making this an even greater provocation for the easily-provoked Putin is the shooting of the pilots:


Not to upset anyone, and not to be alarmist, but when Archduke Ferdinand was assassinated in Sarajevo, no one predicted the chain reactions that would ensue and spark off a world war.

In the video below, the expert says that Russians were not there to bomb ISIS, but rather to support Assad's forces against non-ISIS rebels.

Posted by: Ace at 01:34 PM




Comments

(Jump to bottom of comments)

1 What happened to the other thread?

Posted by: BeckoningChasm at November 24, 2015 01:36 PM (DuH+r)

2 At this rate, we're going to deplete our Strategic Hashtag Reserve.

We may have to go back to deploying bullet points.

Posted by: RoyalOil at November 24, 2015 01:36 PM (fQ/0p)

3 Hard to know who to side with on this one. I hope both Russia and Turkey come out losers.

Posted by: Cicero (@cicero) at November 24, 2015 01:36 PM (8ZskC)

4 Too soon to go long on iodine tablets?

Posted by: Blanco Basura at November 24, 2015 01:36 PM (YEelc)

5 No problem. Da Zero already has James Taylor and his guitar on a plane to the region.

Posted by: maddogg at November 24, 2015 01:37 PM (xWW96)

6 Progressive president Wilson brought us WWI.
Progressive president Roosevelt brought us WWII.
Progressive president Obama will bring us WWIII.

Progressivism bringing misery to billions and death to hundreds of millions.

Posted by: Jukin, Former Republican at November 24, 2015 01:38 PM (AhyHb)

7 The question is, where did the Russian planes crash? Was it in Turkey or in Syria?

Posted by: Vic-we have no party at November 24, 2015 01:39 PM (t2KH5)

8 Fun Fact: Archduke Franz Ferdinand supposedly bagged 3,000 trophy kills before Gavrilo Princip bagged him.

Posted by: Cicero (@cicero) at November 24, 2015 01:39 PM (8ZskC)

9 Look at all of the Climate Change being caused by that burning jet!

Forget the saber rattling folks, we have Climate Change!

Posted by: Mikey NTH - Bury the Hatchet and Other Weapons at the Outrage Outlet! at November 24, 2015 01:40 PM (hLRSq)

10 If only Dr. Kissinger were younger. He would understand all of this and would be able to explain it.

Posted by: THDeering at November 24, 2015 01:40 PM (Ymx+z)

11 They were in Syria when hit.

Posted by: Mustapha Kunt -- With a Wang! at November 24, 2015 01:40 PM (iQIUe)

12 Putin and Erdogan are both assholes.

Posted by: Roland THTG at November 24, 2015 01:40 PM (QM5S2)

13 The saying "nature abhors a vacum" applies here.

When Fredo withdrew almost ALL American Leadership, there was a vacuum and bad things and bad people streamed in.

And Ace is 100% right, unintended and intended consequences have and will follow, and mostly ALL bad. And many impossible to reverse.

Hang onto your asses folks


Posted by: Nevergiveup at November 24, 2015 01:41 PM (gf8BH)

14 i blame climate change for this incident...


Posted by: Baracky the Dimwitted at November 24, 2015 01:41 PM (7+yyM)

15 Not to upset anyone, and not to be alarmist, but when Archduke Ferdinand
was assassinated in Sarajevo, no one predicted the chain reactions that
would ensue and spark off a world war.


The difference being that the assassination sparked a world war because it triggered a bunch of mutual defense pacts that had been signed under the table by monarchs who could go to war as a matter of honor/ego, whereas the likely Russia-NATO front here is based on a treaty that is publicly known (but whose participants may well not live up to their treaty 'obligations').

Oh, also there are not necessarily just two sides in this, and at least two of the potential sides (three if Israel and the US aren't on the same side) have nukes today, with more on the way.

Posted by: Methos at November 24, 2015 01:41 PM (ZbV+0)

16 The question is, where did the Russian planes crash? Was it in Turkey or in Syria?
Posted by: Vic-we have no party at November 24, 2015 01:39 PM (t2KH5)

it crashed in syria

Posted by: Nevergiveup at November 24, 2015 01:41 PM (gf8BH)

17 Being a Turk means never having to say you're sorry!

Posted by: wooga, "Love Story" sucked as a movie at November 24, 2015 01:41 PM (iV2kZ)

18 If only Obama could go to Russia like Nixon went to China. We could have iPad factories in Syria instead of all of this death and destruction.

Posted by: THDeering at November 24, 2015 01:42 PM (Ymx+z)

19 Like Obabama cares about NATO

Posted by: brak at November 24, 2015 01:42 PM (xwPSp)

20 we're all gonna die!

Posted by: redc1c4 at November 24, 2015 01:42 PM (7+yyM)

21 According the BBC, the plane crashed in Syria.

http://goo.gl/zyvLQP

Posted by: Michael the Hobbit at November 24, 2015 01:42 PM (dPpmC)

22 So what will Russia do?
Obama has sided with Turkey, right?

What a freakin' mess!

Posted by: Lizzy at November 24, 2015 01:43 PM (NOIQH)

23 "Progressive president Roosevelt brought us WWII."

Yeah. WWII was all FDRs fault. If it weren't for FDR none of those people would have been fighting one another at all.
*face palm*

Posted by: Mikey NTH - Get You Mute Buttons for the Family Gathering at the Outrage Outlet! at November 24, 2015 01:43 PM (hLRSq)

24 Can't we rebuke the lot of 'em with a climate change conference?

Posted by: OregonMuse at November 24, 2015 01:43 PM (vIdH4)

25 Ok, maybe Obama would have to go to Iran.
It would be a historic first.
We could resume normal diplomatic relations.
Build a new American Embassy.

Peace at hand, Peace at hand, Good GOD! we would have peace!

Posted by: THDeering at November 24, 2015 01:43 PM (Ymx+z)

26 Dominoes fall while Gaylord plays Tiddly-Winks.

*starts thinking of tearing up script*

Posted by: Anna Puma at November 24, 2015 01:43 PM (7MJMR)

27 Meanwhile in Tunisia there was an explosion on a bus carrying the presidential guards, ISIS claim responsibility.

Posted by: flmomof4 at November 24, 2015 01:43 PM (bEXWJ)

28 From the Fox story:


A spokesman for the U.S.-led coalition based out of Baghdad said the
U.S. indeed heard Turkey on open channels issue 10 warnings to the
Russian jet before the incident. Reports out of Russia also say a
military helicopter was shot at in Syria, killing one serviceman.



I would say that whoever was piloting the Rusian jet was trying to get a response. Maybe this isn't the response he wanted.

Posted by: Vic-we have no party at November 24, 2015 01:43 PM (t2KH5)

29 20 we're all gonna die!
Posted by: redc1c4 at November 24, 2015 01:42 PM (7+yyM)


I guarantee it.

Posted by: maddogg at November 24, 2015 01:43 PM (xWW96)

30 Oh dear, I do believe the tension is palpable. Have you spoken to the nice gentleman from Vault Tec yet, sir?

Posted by: Codsworth at November 24, 2015 01:43 PM (imkXI)

31 7 The question is, where did the Russian planes crash? Was it in Turkey or in Syria?
Posted by: Vic-we have no party at November 24, 2015 01:39 PM (t2KH5)

Vic, if you look at the map the Turks are putting out, their territory has a "peninsula" that juts in to Syria around where the Russians were flying, which the Turks have accused the Russians of flying through.

US sources (according to Drudge) say the Russians were only in Turkish airspace for SECONDS.

And the crash site is in Syria.

So, um, I mean -- The Russians might not be wrong in this one. They might not have known they were crossing a Turkish border.

Posted by: Harry Paratestes at November 24, 2015 01:44 PM (AkOaV)

32 Dominoes fall while Gaylord plays Tiddly-Winks spin the bottle with Reggie.

...this is the clean version of the joke, btw.

Posted by: Brother Cavil, down with Eph 6:12-13 at November 24, 2015 01:44 PM (9krrF)

33 Looks like one NATO member still has a spine. Turkey should not have to tolerate its airspace being violated. We would have asked the Russians where we need to move our aircraft to stay out of their way.

Posted by: Mark in Portland at November 24, 2015 01:44 PM (DpRZj)

34 I have read both that the pilot/s were shot as they were parachuting and another that says they were captured and Turkey is working on their release.

Has it been established that the pilot was shot and killed?

Posted by: Cheri at November 24, 2015 01:44 PM (oiNtH)

35 WTF???

Posted by: maddogg at November 24, 2015 01:45 PM (xWW96)

36 The question is, where did the Russian planes crash? Was it in Turkey or in Syria?

It's gotta be damn close to the border if it was on the Turkey side, if militants on the ground in Syria could shoot the ejected pilots.

Posted by: Methos at November 24, 2015 01:45 PM (ZbV+0)

37
Newsman: "Well, President Putin, what will you be having on Thanksgiving Day?"

Putin: "Turkey".

Posted by: Mike Hammer, etc., etc. at November 24, 2015 01:45 PM (9mTYi)

38 I don't think it's very civilized, to shoot people who are parachuting down. Turkey should be ashamed of itself for that.

For the rest - I dunno. I don't much like any of 'em.

Posted by: Persnickety at November 24, 2015 01:45 PM (SZa8B)

39 And it's awesome that our US-backed "moderate rebel" allies took it on themselves to shoot parachuting pilots out of the sky. Then used US-supplied weapons to shoot at a Russian rescue helicopter. That's really helpful, guys.

Because US fingerprints are all over this clusterfuck of a situation.

Posted by: Harry Paratestes at November 24, 2015 01:45 PM (AkOaV)

40 12 Putin and Erdogan are both assholes.
Posted by: Roland THTG at November 24, 2015 01:40 PM (QM5S2)

********
Yep.

Posted by: Danube River Guide at November 24, 2015 01:45 PM (mcm0N)

41 Progressive president Wilson brought us WWI.

And WWII. If not for Wilson's intervention, WWI would probably have ended in an exhausted draw and some sort of peace.

The Treaty of Versailles, enabled by Wilson, also set the stage for WWII.

Don't forget that Democrats triggered the Civil War by splitting the Union to preserve Slavery.

Posted by: ReactionaryMonster at November 24, 2015 01:45 PM (0NdlF)

42 38 I don't think it's very civilized, to shoot people who are parachuting down. Turkey should be ashamed of itself for that.

For the rest - I dunno. I don't much like any of 'em.
Posted by: Persnickety at November 24, 2015 01:45 PM (SZa8B)

Wasn't Turkey.

It was our "moderate Rebel" allies in Syria who shot the pilots.

Posted by: Harry Paratestes at November 24, 2015 01:46 PM (AkOaV)

43 Putin should watch his mouth, Erdogan has been happily pulling Turkey away from the West and Russia beating its chest will only make Erdogan think hard about closing ranks with the US.

Putin also doesn't have enough planes and ships and SA-22 systems in Syria to win a fight against the number of planes Turkey could bring to bear against his expedition if it came to war.

Posted by: deepelemblues at November 24, 2015 01:46 PM (KiO7/)

44
A russian bomber and a russian helicopter shot down. Yeah, this is all gonna work out well.

I swear obama is trying to help isis sometimes.

then again, he gave a "strong rebuke to the terrorists" with a climate summit.

So enjoy your turkey. (food, not country)

Posted by: Guy Mohawk at November 24, 2015 01:46 PM (ODxAs)

45 I don't think it's very civilized, to shoot people who are parachuting down. Turkey should be ashamed of itself for that.

For the rest - I dunno. I don't much like any of 'em.
Posted by: Persnickety at November 24, 2015 01:45 PM (SZa8B)

it was NOT Turkish troops that shot the pilots as they parachuted to the ground, it was rebel groups.

Posted by: Nevergiveup at November 24, 2015 01:46 PM (gf8BH)

46
It's gotta be damn close to the border if it was on the Turkey side, if militants on the ground in Syria could shoot the ejected pilots.
Posted by: Methos at November 24, 2015 01:45 PM (ZbV+0)

Turkey has released a graphic.

Posted by: Harry Paratestes at November 24, 2015 01:47 PM (AkOaV)

47 "Putin and Erdogan are both assholes."

Besides the Israelis and the Kurds, pretty much everyone over there is. The real question is who wins the title of Last Asshole Standing.

Posted by: Qoheleth at November 24, 2015 01:47 PM (iIzG7)

48 The weapon that took out the chopper, that didn't happen to come through Libya by chance?

Posted by: Blanco Basura at November 24, 2015 01:47 PM (YEelc)

49 Putin also doesn't have enough planes and ships and SA-22 systems in Syria to win a fight against the number of planes Turkey could bring to bear against his expedition if it came to war.
Posted by: deepelemblues at November 24, 2015 01:46 PM (KiO7/)

he could in 36 hours

Posted by: Nevergiveup at November 24, 2015 01:47 PM (gf8BH)

50
Gee, Vlad, remember KAL Flight 007?

Posted by: Mike Hammer, etc., etc. at November 24, 2015 01:47 PM (9mTYi)

51 43 Putin should watch his mouth, Erdogan has been happily pulling Turkey away from the West and Russia beating its chest will only make Erdogan think hard about closing ranks with the US.

Putin also doesn't have enough planes and ships and SA-22 systems in Syria to win a fight against the number of planes Turkey could bring to bear against his expedition if it came to war.
Posted by: deepelemblues at November 24, 2015 01:46 PM (KiO7/)

Well if you look at a map, I don't think the Turks would have to worry about anything coming from the Syrian side.

Posted by: Harry Paratestes at November 24, 2015 01:47 PM (AkOaV)

52 I'm confused.

We want to oust Assad.

ISIS wants to oust Assad.

So we're only pretending to bomb ISIS, because we're on the same side, right?

Russia is on the side of Assad, so they're bombing ISIS.

And ISIS is killing westerners.

Turkey, our ally (I think) is on the side of ISIS, so they downed a Russian plane.

Is that kind of right?

Posted by: shibumi who is awash in existential dread at November 24, 2015 01:48 PM (9JJgN)

53 According the BBC, the plane crashed in Syria.
---
That just means the pilots flew back across the border to make Turkey look bad before ejecting, idits!

Posted by: internet Turkey truther at November 24, 2015 01:48 PM (ZbV+0)

54 Not to upset anyone, and not to be alarmist, but when Archduke Ferdinand was assassinated in Sarajevo, no one predicted the chain reactions that would ensue and spark off a world war.


Noting that matters that have always been casus belli are casus belli is not being alarmist.

Stupid interesting times.

I will admit that it is shocking that we can now watch wars start in real time.

Thinky thoughts what I have been having and are not actually unique to me:

WWI never ended. We're just seeing those strifes continue to play out. Discuss.

Posted by: alexthechick - love and despair bitches at November 24, 2015 01:48 PM (mf5HN)

55 Has it been established that the pilot was shot and killed?

Posted by: Cheri at November 24, 2015 01:44 PM (oiNtH)


This is the internet. You want accurate information quickly?

*scoffs*

I'm amazed that someone hasn't claimed a TIE fighter sighting in the area.

Posted by: Mikey NTH - Get You Mute Buttons for the Family Gathering at the Outrage Outlet! at November 24, 2015 01:48 PM (hLRSq)

56 48 The weapon that took out the chopper, that didn't happen to come through Libya by chance?
Posted by: Blanco Basura at November 24, 2015 01:47 PM (YEelc)

No, most likely from the stockpiles we've been shipping to the "moderate" rebels for 4-5 years now.

Posted by: Harry Paratestes at November 24, 2015 01:48 PM (AkOaV)

57 Oh, also there are not necessarily just two sides in this, and at least two of the potential sides (three if Israel and the US aren't on the same side) have nukes today, with more on the way.

So the stage is set for people to toss nukes around. Is that supposed to be a comforting thought?

The deterrence of a major war due to nuclear weapons is only true until a threshold is crossed, and the nukes are actually used.

Posted by: ReactionaryMonster at November 24, 2015 01:48 PM (0NdlF)

58 28 From the Fox story:


A spokesman for the U.S.-led coalition based out of Baghdad said the
U.S. indeed heard Turkey on open channels issue 10 warnings to the
Russian jet before the incident. Reports out of Russia also say a
military helicopter was shot at in Syria, killing one serviceman.


I would say that whoever was piloting the Rusian jet was trying to get a response. Maybe this isn't the response he wanted.
Posted by: Vic-we have no party at November 24, 2015 01:43 PM (t2KH5)


***************

Putin has been testing NATO.

Posted by: Danube River Guide at November 24, 2015 01:49 PM (mcm0N)

59 Don't be silly. Turkey is tough, but against Russia, they are a speed bump. Russia can have everything they need in place inside of 2 weeks if they wanted to do it bad enough.

Posted by: maddogg at November 24, 2015 01:49 PM (xWW96)

60 This all feels very bad. We have no serious major world leaders. They're all either stupid or insane.

Posted by: L, Elle at November 24, 2015 01:49 PM (2x3L+)

61 WWIII well underway and the American President will not act to protect us or the world

God save us all

Posted by: ginaswo at November 24, 2015 01:49 PM (qxNrP)

62 This is going well.

Let's talk about climate change.

Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at November 24, 2015 01:49 PM (659DL)

63 WWI never ended. We're just seeing those strifes continue to play out. Discuss.
Posted by: alexthechick - love and despair bitches at November 24, 2015 01:48 PM (mf5HN)

ottomans v czarist Russia vs.... well, who gets to be austria hungary in this scenario?

Posted by: Harry Paratestes at November 24, 2015 01:50 PM (AkOaV)

64 WWI never ended. We're just seeing those strifes continue to play out. Discuss.

WWI and WWII were Germany vs. the world.

WWIII is going to be Islam vs. the world.

Crusades 2.0?

Posted by: ReactionaryMonster at November 24, 2015 01:50 PM (0NdlF)

65 There'll be no war. Putin will retaliate and NATO won't do squat because they know America won't lift a finger to help. Hell, in the midst of this crisis Obama's in Paris babbling about climate change. An unserious man in a serious time.

Posted by: Citizen Cake at November 24, 2015 01:50 PM (ppaKI)

66 When oil prices hit these lows and are trending even lower, the wrong people get pissed off.

Vladimir Putin and Me.

Time to blow shit up and make a market correction. Wipe out some capacity and drain some reserves. Scare the speculators and send the short sellers to the poorhouse.

That SU-24 was the property of Gazprom and they didn't allow it to be shot down without reason.

Posted by: jwest at November 24, 2015 01:50 PM (Zs4uk)

67 So

If superman were hit ground zero by a nuke, would he get stronger? Because it's supposed to be like a little sun.

What if it was a red nuke?

Would his costume survive?

Posted by: Bigby's Fistful of Dice at November 24, 2015 01:50 PM (G/amz)

68 It's not alarmist at all to suggest that these events could balloon into a major war, especially considering the caliber and attitude of major world leaders at this time.

Posted by: Moderate Salami, weeping for our dead Republic at November 24, 2015 01:50 PM (/Ho8c)

69 The Internet - generating more Fog of War than anything else since the boiler blew on USS Maine.

Posted by: Anna Puma at November 24, 2015 01:50 PM (7MJMR)

70 I'm amazed that someone hasn't claimed a TIE fighter sighting in the area.

Just the usual X-wings.

Posted by: Blanco Basura at November 24, 2015 01:50 PM (YEelc)

71 the plane crashed in Syria.

Yeah but it was headed that way anyhow.

Posted by: DaveA at November 24, 2015 01:51 PM (DL2i+)

72 I'm confused.

We want to oust Assad.

ISIS wants to oust Assad.

So we're only pretending to bomb ISIS, because we're on the same side, right?

Russia is on the side of Assad, so they're bombing ISIS.

And ISIS is killing westerners.

Turkey, our ally (I think) is on the side of ISIS, so they downed a Russian plane.

Is that kind of right?
Posted by: shibumi who is awash in existential dread at November 24, 2015 01:48 PM (9JJgN)

Russia was not to concerned about ISIS till they stupidly went after that Russian Charter plane in the Sinai.. Russia is still mostly attacking the other Rebel groups who are attacking Assad and their main concern is Assad not ISIS

Posted by: Nevergiveup at November 24, 2015 01:51 PM (gf8BH)

73 Is my computer dicked, or my eyes, or has the right margin disappeared?

Posted by: maddogg at November 24, 2015 01:51 PM (xWW96)

74 Posted by: shibumi who is awash in existential dread at November 24, 2015 01:48 PM (9JJgN)

Actually, yes. Nailed it.

Posted by: Harry Paratestes at November 24, 2015 01:51 PM (AkOaV)

75


This is the internet. You want accurate information quickly?

*scoffs*

I'm amazed that someone hasn't claimed a TIE fighter sighting in the area.
Posted by: Mikey NTH - Get You Mute Buttons for the Family Gathering at the Outrage Outlet! at November 24, 2015 01:48 PM (hLRSq)

**************

24 hour rule. How many more hours to go?

Posted by: Danube River Guide at November 24, 2015 01:51 PM (mcm0N)

76 Don't be silly. Turkey is tough, but against Russia, they are a speed bump.

In 1985, maybe. In 2015, I would pay cash money to watch the Russians even try.

Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at November 24, 2015 01:51 PM (659DL)

77 Russia hits those villages with ground to ground missiles/rockets.

Any Turkish planes near the Russian border get shot down.

The Turks close the Bosphorus.

Any Turkish planes that violates Syrian air space are attacked by the Russians.

Now what?

Posted by: goatweed at November 24, 2015 01:52 PM (3fkN0)

78 If I were Putin ID Bomb Turkish positions

Obama aka NATO won't do shit



Posted by: ginaswo at November 24, 2015 01:52 PM (qxNrP)

79 Hey, remember when I said to avoid entangling alliances? Wasn't kidding.

Posted by: George Washington at November 24, 2015 01:52 PM (Cx8hP)

80 #BringBackOurMigs

Posted by: Satan of Cloggenstein Vt at November 24, 2015 01:52 PM (qSIlh)

81 From a different account:


In Brussels, Nato officials say the Russian jet entered Turkish airspace
before it was shot down. Earlier the US said the Russian incursion into
Turkish air space lasted just seconds. Nato ambassadors apparently
believe Turkey could have shown more restraint.



So it was in Turk air space but only for a few seconds. It still looks like it was an intentional provocation.

Posted by: Vic-we have no party at November 24, 2015 01:52 PM (t2KH5)

82 WWI never ended. We're just seeing those strifes continue to play out. Discuss.

Posted by: alexthechick - love and despair bitches at November 24, 2015 01:48 PM (mf5HN)


The order that was created by the Congress of Vienna was destroyed by WWI.

The Congress of Vienna was held to deal with the end of the Wars of the French Revolution and the Napoleonic era.

We are still dealing with the repercussions from storming the Bastille.

Posted by: Mikey NTH - Get You Mute Buttons for the Family Gathering at the Outrage Outlet! at November 24, 2015 01:52 PM (hLRSq)

83 , their territory has a "peninsula" that juts in to Syria around where
the Russians were flying, which the Turks have accused the Russians of
flying through.



US sources (according to Drudge) say the Russians were only in Turkish airspace for SECONDS.


Borders - not there to be cut across.

Posted by: DaveA at November 24, 2015 01:52 PM (DL2i+)

84 Putin also doesn't have enough planes and ships and SA-22 systems in
Syria to win a fight against the number of planes Turkey could bring to
bear against his expedition if it came to war.


What sort of nuclear assets does he have in the area?

Posted by: Methos at November 24, 2015 01:53 PM (ZbV+0)

85 Turkey, our ally (I think) is on the side of ISIS

This is not true. Turkey is on Turkey's side.

Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at November 24, 2015 01:53 PM (659DL)

86 "he could in 36 hours"

And they're just going to fly over the Black Sea and then over Turkey, which has a fair number of American and European anti-air systems, to get to Syria? Or over the Black Sea to bomb Turkey from the north? Or they're going to take the long way around over the Caucasus and Iraq? So they can be low on fuel for the last leg of such a run, when they would be most likely to be intercepted by Turkish planes?

Turkey has a large, modern military equipped with American and European hardware, and the geography is not in Russia's favor. The Kremlin really shouldn't want to get into a tussle with Ankara.

Posted by: deepelemblues at November 24, 2015 01:53 PM (KiO7/)

87 "Russia is on the side of Assad, so they're bombing ISIS."

No. That is the complaint. Russia is not bombing Islamic State forces and is bombing rebels allied with US/Turkey.

Turkey has their own side in Syria, and the number of states that have declared ISIS the enemy and who are NOT bombing ISIS is almost all of them with Obama doing everything he can to make an attack on ISIS impossible.

Posted by: THDeering at November 24, 2015 01:53 PM (Ymx+z)

88
Turkey might be part of nato but they sure as hell aren't on our side. Erodgen is moving toward full on islamo fascist state.

Posted by: Guy Mohawk at November 24, 2015 01:53 PM (ODxAs)

89 Nobody ever made bank underestimating the Russkies.

Posted by: maddogg at November 24, 2015 01:53 PM (xWW96)

90 @2: "We may have to go back to deploying bullet points."

Bullet points?!? Motherfucking bullet points?!? Oh, I so call microaggression on that!

Posted by: Marie Harf at November 24, 2015 01:53 PM (Cx8hP)

91 "WW1 never really ended"

What WW1 did was upset the order of European Civilization which had existed within a somewhat medieval framework for almost a thousand years. The world is still trying to come to grips with that upheaval even after 100 years.
WW1 really fucked up Europe; the US, not so much--but we're still trying to make sense of it all.

Posted by: JoeF. at November 24, 2015 01:54 PM (j+FUF)

92 Russia hits those villages with ground to ground missiles/rockets.

Any Turkish planes near the Russian border get shot down.

The Turks close the Bosphorus.

Any Turkish planes that violates Syrian air space are attacked by the Russians.

Now what?




A strongly-worded UN statement condemning Israel and a concert by James Taylor. Next question?

Posted by: John Kerry at November 24, 2015 01:54 PM (ppaKI)

93
Turkey is also buying isis oil.

Posted by: Guy Mohawk at November 24, 2015 01:54 PM (ODxAs)

94 "What sort of nuclear assets does he have in the area?"

Not enough to make Putin think he could nuke Turkey, a NATO member, without starting a World War Three that lasts about four hours and ends with the Northern hemisphere glowing in the dark for the next 400 years.

Posted by: deepelemblues at November 24, 2015 01:54 PM (KiO7/)

95 59 Don't be silly. Turkey is tough, but against Russia, they are a speed bump. Russia can have everything they need in place inside of 2 weeks if they wanted to do it bad enough.
Posted by: maddogg at November 24, 2015 01:49 PM (xWW96)

*********

2 weeks? Erdogan did jail a lot of his own military...

Posted by: Danube River Guide at November 24, 2015 01:54 PM (mcm0N)

96 Teh Fred:

https://tinyurl.com/powps2h


Posted by: CozMark at November 24, 2015 01:54 PM (CbGSW)

97 AlextheChick and Mikey, if you want to be truly picky...

We are still dealing with the after effects of what the Goths and Vandals did to the weakened Western Roman Empire.

Posted by: Anna Puma at November 24, 2015 01:54 PM (7MJMR)

98 I swear obama is trying to help isis sometimes.

then again, he gave a "strong rebuke to the terrorists" with a climate summit.

So enjoy your turkey. (food, not country)


Posted by: Guy Mohawk at November 24, 2015 01:46 PM (ODxAs)




Sometimes? I surprised the bastard doesn't end his press conferences with Death to America.

Posted by: TheQuietMan at November 24, 2015 01:55 PM (493sH)

99 Turkey just started war with Russia.

National suicide for what, Erdogan's big ego?

I saw the video, the plane went almost straight down vertically.
It landed in Syrian territory, as did the pilots.

The plane was DEFINITELY shot down over Syrian territory.

Posted by: Village Idiot at November 24, 2015 01:55 PM (bf86X)

100 The Turkmen?

They were a great Doctor Who character.

Posted by: LIV at November 24, 2015 01:55 PM (REdlt)

101 What sort of nuclear assets does he have in the area?
Posted by: Methos at November 24, 2015 01:53 PM (ZbV+0)

All of them. Putins Black Sea fleet is riiiiiiiiiiight on the other side of Turkey.

Look at where Turkey is on a map in relations to Russia and their awesome new base in Crimea.

Posted by: Harry Paratestes at November 24, 2015 01:55 PM (AkOaV)

102 Cross a border with ten thousand refujihadis and no one bats an eyelash.

Cross a border with one Russian jet and EVERYONE LOSES THEIR MINDS!

Posted by: Qoheleth at November 24, 2015 01:55 PM (iIzG7)

103 Borders - not there to be cut across.

But only for Russian jets. Illegal aliens? COME ON IN.

Here, have some welfare.

Posted by: ReactionaryMonster at November 24, 2015 01:56 PM (0NdlF)

104 Turkey is no western ally
Erdigan wants Islamic state
he jailed the generals that kept turkey secular

No surprise he's obummers best friend among world leaders

Posted by: ginaswo at November 24, 2015 01:56 PM (qxNrP)

105 Putin is weakening his connections with the western world. I worry that Putin's ego will, ultimately, weaken Russia enough that parts of it fall under ISIS attacks or chaos. If Russia's power collapses, that leaves more empty space in the ME for ISIS to come in and fill.

Posted by: Hillary's alcoholic depression at November 24, 2015 01:56 PM (NBhge)

106 87 "Russia is on the side of Assad, so they're bombing ISIS."

No. That is the complaint. Russia is not bombing Islamic State forces and is bombing rebels allied with US/Turkey.

Turkey has their own side in Syria, and the number of states that have declared ISIS the enemy and who are NOT bombing ISIS is almost all of them with Obama doing everything he can to make an attack on ISIS impossible.
Posted by: THDeering at November 24, 2015 01:53 PM (Ymx+z)


*********

Erdogan has been bombing the Kurds.

Posted by: Danube River Guide at November 24, 2015 01:56 PM (mcm0N)

107 Not to upset anyone, and not to be alarmist, but OUR WORLD WILL BE CONSUMED BY FIRE


!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!111111one

Posted by: Ghost of kari at November 24, 2015 01:57 PM (xuouz)

108 Oh dear, I do believe the tension is palpable. Have you spoken to the nice gentleman from Vault Tec yet, sir?

Posted by: Codsworth at November 24, 2015 01:43 PM (imkXI)


Oh, God, I hope the apocalypse won't be as buggy as a Bethesda game.

Though now that you mention it, people do seem to be stuck going one direction, conversations are more frequently broken, spelling is terrible and I tried to use VATS - it doesn't work in real life either!

Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of the Sith at November 24, 2015 01:57 PM (bLnSU)

109 You might want to take shelter underground, sir. These radiation storms can play havoc with the human physiology.

...and the dust. Oh, the dust!

Posted by: Codsworth at November 24, 2015 01:57 PM (imkXI)

110 It'd take only a few seconds to fly over Key West, but we sure as hell wouldn't allow the Russians to do with impunity.

Posted by: Citizen Cake at November 24, 2015 01:57 PM (ppaKI)

111 Again NATO won't do shit

PUTIN can't fly from crimea?

Posted by: ginaswo at November 24, 2015 01:58 PM (qxNrP)

112 #russianlivesmatter

Posted by: Monsieur Mew Mew at November 24, 2015 01:58 PM (0LHZx)

113 No. That is the complaint. Russia is not bombing Islamic State forces and is bombing rebels allied with US/Turkey.

Posted by: THDeering at November 24, 2015 01:53 PM (Ymx+z)

That's Obama's complaint.

All of the sunni rebels fighting Assad are of the same ideological bend, Russia has just been bombing from "friendly territory" out, so they've killed a lot of OUR sunni jihadists, which annoyed Obama.

The Russians have also destroyed a lot of ISIS tankers which have been going back and forth to Turkey delivering ISIS oil for big money for years now without a problem. That also annoyed Obama.

Posted by: Harry Paratestes at November 24, 2015 01:58 PM (AkOaV)

114 If Turkmen aren't Turks, does that mean all Turks are women? Parthenogenesis?

Posted by: Bruce Boehner at November 24, 2015 01:58 PM (ZdSzs)

115 Posted by: Anna Puma at November 24, 2015 01:54 PM (7MJMR)

I didn't want to go back that far, but I say we're dealing from the fallout of all that came from standing upright in Olduvai Gorge.

Stupid alien monolith....

Posted by: Mikey NTH - Get You Mute Buttons for the Family Gathering at the Outrage Outlet! at November 24, 2015 01:58 PM (hLRSq)

116 The end of the world is nigh!

Everyone remember to back up your data.

Posted by: Qoheleth at November 24, 2015 01:58 PM (iIzG7)

117 Teh Fred:

https://tinyurl.com/powps2h


RIP Fred. You won't have to live through it.

Posted by: ReactionaryMonster at November 24, 2015 01:59 PM (0NdlF)

118 It'd take only a few seconds to fly over Key West, but we sure as hell wouldn't allow the Russians to do with impunity.


Sure.

Russia could reclaim Alaska and Obama would respond with a hashtag campaign.

Posted by: Cicero (@cicero) at November 24, 2015 01:59 PM (8ZskC)

119 Well, Turkey's not really NATO-NATO...





... especially when we need help with anything.

Posted by: Whoopi Goldberg at November 24, 2015 01:59 PM (REdlt)

120 There was an episode of the Simpsons where Homer finds out that he has a crayon lodged in his brain; he put it there through his nose. Well, it was removed, and he became quite smart.

And because he was smart, he was incredibly unhappy and lost his friends. In the end, he put the crayon back in and bought lottery tickets.

I think I need to go to the store and buy a box of crayons. I'll be much happier.

Posted by: shibumi who is awash in existential dread at November 24, 2015 01:59 PM (9JJgN)

121 Nobody ever made bank underestimating the Russkies.
Posted by: maddogg at November 24, 2015 01:53 PM (xWW96)


Well, Putin did.

Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of the Sith at November 24, 2015 01:59 PM (bLnSU)

122 110 It'd take only a few seconds to fly over Key West, but we sure as hell wouldn't allow the Russians to do with impunity.
Posted by: Citizen Cake at November 24, 2015 01:57 PM (ppaKI)

The Russians are dicks and violate ours (and Europes) air space all the time. Usually we send them a sternly worded memo.

This time Turkey shot them down.

Posted by: Harry Paratestes at November 24, 2015 01:59 PM (AkOaV)

123 #AsGodIsMyWitnessIThoughtICouldFlyOverTurkey

Posted by: Les Nessman at November 24, 2015 02:00 PM (8ZskC)

124 So it was in Turk air space but only for a few seconds. It still looks like it was an intentional provocation.
Posted by: Vic-we have no party at November 24, 2015 01:52 PM (t2KH5)


It could have been unintentional but given that Putin has had Russian planes deliberately making incursions into other countries' airspaces around the world for several years now, the Russians have lost all benefit of the doubt.

Posted by: Maetenloch at November 24, 2015 02:00 PM (wqVD1)

125 "PUTIN can't fly from crimea?"

Geography lesson:

Crimea: river made famous by Julie London.

Posted by: Qoheleth at November 24, 2015 02:00 PM (iIzG7)

126 Syria and Turkey have water disputes.

Posted by: Danube River Guide at November 24, 2015 02:00 PM (mcm0N)

127 But also, ace is being a bit... alarmist here...

I don't think this will lead to a world war.

But it is fucking stupid, and we should make it clear that it is not okay for Turkey to shoot down Russian planes if they expect to stay in NATO, the pricks.

Posted by: Harry Paratestes at November 24, 2015 02:00 PM (AkOaV)

128 >>Not to upset anyone, and not to be alarmist, but when Archduke Ferdinand was assassinated in Sarajevo, no one predicted the chain reactions that would ensue and spark off a world war.

Well I tried to warn people but my producer cut it from the report.

Posted by: Brian Williams at November 24, 2015 02:01 PM (/tuJf)

129 WWI never ended. We're just seeing those strifes continue to play out. Discuss.

Posted by: alexthechick - love and despair bitches at November 24, 2015 01:48 PM (mf5HN)

Well the Germans are pretty well out of this one, but I hear the Japanese are rethinking their whole defeated pacifists thing.

Posted by: Methos at November 24, 2015 02:01 PM (ZbV+0)

130 Everyone is using the chaos ( Thanks Fredo) in Syria to go after their own personal enemies and that is NOT necessarily ISIS

As was said above:

The Turks are gong after the Kurd

The Kurds are going after the Turds and ISIS

The Russians were mostly going after Assad's enemies until the dopes ISIS went after them--stupid move ISIS

The USA is going after? Your guess is as good as mine

Posted by: Nevergiveup at November 24, 2015 02:01 PM (gf8BH)

131 Breaking news (on Twitter): Russia deploys missile cruiser off Syria coast, ordered to destroy any target posing danger.

Hmm. Would that be any targets in Turkey as well as in Syria? No military expert but Erdogan might not have picked the right bear to mess with.

Posted by: IC at November 24, 2015 02:01 PM (a0IVu)

132 Posted by: Citizen Cake at November 24, 2015 01:57 PM (ppaKI)

You may want to check on the number of Russian incursions into our airspace. Admittedly it's an entire different ball game when its done in a war zone where ROE is looser.

Posted by: Max Rockatansky at November 24, 2015 02:01 PM (FCAbp)

133 It turns out that Turkey is the ISIS defense force.

Step 1: Turn the turkmen in Syria that shot down helicopter to glass with fuel air explosive.

Step 2: Setup S-400 in Syria all across Turkish border.

Shoot down every Turk plane and helicopter that cross border.

Turkey will be totally ok with this, since they crossed the border and all.

Posted by: Village Idiot at November 24, 2015 02:02 PM (bf86X)

134 Scary stuff. I wish we had someone competent in charge.

Posted by: Lea at November 24, 2015 02:02 PM (lIU4e)

135 We wouldn't be so alarmist if they hadn't taken away our yoga classes because of cultural appropriations.


Yoga is a great calming influence on world affairs.


Everyone should take yoga classes.

Free Yoga! Feel the peace!

Posted by: THDeering at November 24, 2015 02:02 PM (Ymx+z)

136 Syria and Turkey have water disputes.
Posted by: Danube River Guide at November 24, 2015 02:00 PM (mcm0N)


Everyone in the Middle East has Water disputes...in some ways the 67 War started because of Water Disputes on the Golan--or at least help start it

Posted by: Nevergiveup at November 24, 2015 02:02 PM (gf8BH)

137 126 Syria and Turkey have water disputes.
Posted by: Danube River Guide at November 24, 2015 02:00 PM (mcm0N)

________

All cuz global warming!!!!ty

Posted by: Monsieur Mew Mew at November 24, 2015 02:02 PM (0LHZx)

138
Posted by: Vic-we have no party at November 24, 2015 01:52 PM (t2KH5)

It could have been unintentional but given that Putin has had Russian planes deliberately making incursions into other countries' airspaces around the world for several years now, the Russians have lost all benefit of the doubt.
Posted by: Maetenloch at November 24, 2015 02:00 PM (wqVD1)

*********
That, and then the submarines.

Posted by: Danube River Guide at November 24, 2015 02:03 PM (mcm0N)

139 47: The Kurds are famous for acting as footsoldiers in the Armenian genocide. That was a long time ago, but ...

76: And this is much more of a home game for the Turks than the Russians. That said, it's very unlikely that this will become anything like a full-scale conventional war between Russia and Turkey, of course: things will either settle down or escalate to Doomsday well before that.

Posted by: anonymous irishman at November 24, 2015 02:03 PM (DJgfL)

140 Also, this benefits Erdogan. They just had a sketchy election and what better to distract and unite the people than a threat from their age-old enemy Russia? Bread and circuses and all that.

Posted by: Citizen Cake at November 24, 2015 02:03 PM (ppaKI)

141 "The USA is going after? Your guess is as good as mine"

The Tea Party.

Posted by: Hillary's alcoholic depression at November 24, 2015 02:03 PM (NBhge)

142 No matter what happens 9bama will not act

PUTIN knows this
so does ISIS

Posted by: ginaswo at November 24, 2015 02:04 PM (qxNrP)

143 78 If I were Putin ID Bomb Turkish positions

Obama aka NATO won't do shit



Posted by: ginaswo at November 24, 2015 01:52 PM (qxNrP)


'Tis true. NATO needs regular diplomatic maintenance and Fredo has totally ignored it, along with the rest of the U.S.' longtime allies. He's on the side of Iran and ISIS now. His concern is only for the establishment of the caliphate.

Posted by: Soona at November 24, 2015 02:04 PM (Fmupd)

144 >>>The USA is going after? Your guess is as good as mine

Posted by: Nevergiveup at November 24, 2015 02:01 PM (gf8BH)<<<

Israel.

Posted by: the Hussein Clown Posse at November 24, 2015 02:04 PM (REdlt)

145 I'm actually afraid to call friends in local airlift unit. They just sent a plane to Incirlik. To spend Thanksgiving in Turkey.

Posted by: Anna Puma at November 24, 2015 02:04 PM (7MJMR)

146 "ottomans v czarist Russia vs.... well, who gets to be austria hungary in this scenario?"

An overstretched and senile multiethnic empire, whose finances are tottering, led by a dynastic class with no connection to reality, with a hollowed-out military run by polished political popinjays instead of tough warfighters?

Oh, come on. It's not like there is one of THOSE around these days.

Posted by: torquewrench at November 24, 2015 02:04 PM (noWW6)

147 also ace, Turkmen are Turks.

As in, ethnically Turks.

Not citizens of Turkey though.

Well, some are.

But the ones in question aren't.

Hope that clarifies.

Posted by: Harry Paratestes at November 24, 2015 02:04 PM (AkOaV)

148 I got concerned when I read that the Preznit went to his chief military advisors, and one of them said "I know! We'll work up a Number Six on 'em!"

Posted by: Qoheleth at November 24, 2015 02:05 PM (iIzG7)

149 If superman were hit ground zero by a nuke, would he get stronger? Because it's supposed to be like a little sun.
--
If it's a hydrogen bomb, yes.

If it's a fission bomb, I'm going to assume Luthor snuck some kryptonite into the warhead.

Posted by: Methos at November 24, 2015 02:05 PM (ZbV+0)

150 16 The question is, where did the Russian planes crash? Was it in Turkey or in Syria?
Posted by: Vic-we have no party at November 24, 2015 01:39 PM (t2KH5)

it crashed in syria
Posted by: Nevergiveup at November 24, 2015 01:41 PM (gf8BH)

I heard it was right on the border. So where will they bury the survivors?

Posted by: Insomniac - Pale Horse/Death 2016 at November 24, 2015 02:05 PM (kpqmD)

151 Well the Germans are pretty well out of this one,

About that ...

http://preview.tinyurl.com/ox8olzq

Posted by: ReactionaryMonster at November 24, 2015 02:05 PM (0NdlF)

152 if Putin starts pounding certain points in Turkey, or more likely, starts arming the Kurds, NATO will do nothing. No one is willing to gear up to fight a new Crimean war.

Posted by: Blue Hen at November 24, 2015 02:05 PM (326rv)

153 WWI never ended. We're just seeing those strifes continue to play out. Discuss.

Posted by: alexthechick - love and despair bitches at November 24, 2015 01:48 PM (mf5HN)


Someone once said that our war with radical Islam started when the Australian Light Horse took the wells at Beersheba.

Posted by: Colorado Alex at November 24, 2015 02:05 PM (OiH3z)

154 Happiness comes from within, sir. Being smart or stupid has very little to do with one's life satisfaction, as long as one maximizes combat potential. Maybe a flame thrower would suit sir today?

Posted by: Codsworth at November 24, 2015 02:05 PM (imkXI)

155 Thankfully, there's a climate change conference coming up. This'll blow over.

Posted by: Herr Morgenholz at November 24, 2015 02:06 PM (EUMr7)

156 123 #AsGodIsMyWitnessIThoughtICouldFlyOverTurkey

Posted by: Les Nessman at November 24, 2015 02:00 PM (8ZskC)

-----

Threadwinner by a mile!

Posted by: sauropod at November 24, 2015 02:07 PM (jfFvP)

157 Why do I get the uneasy feeling that Putin's looking for an excuse to seize the Bosphorus?

Posted by: Country Singer at November 24, 2015 02:07 PM (8Y7+f)

158 "Work Will Set You Free" is making a comeback in Germany, among guards of the entitled migrants. How predictable was this? Progressives are to blame for all of it, as they brought this massive flow into Europe with their incredible stupidity in the ME.

Obama's failures know literally no end. It's fucking unbelievable what a total world-sized screw-up this whole Obama era has turned out to be.

http://bit.ly/1QFPMRp

Posted by: MTF at November 24, 2015 02:07 PM (TxJGV)

159 I think a lot of this is alarmist talk. Putin will huff and puff but at the end of the day he isn't starting WW3 over a downed plane. He's a nasty SOB but he's not insane. This should get the price of oil up a good 10% though.

Posted by: Monsieur Mew Mew at November 24, 2015 02:07 PM (0LHZx)

160 135: Wouldn't work, Putin would ruin it. He'd have to be the BEST at yoga, appearing on TV to breathe with perfect control and teach yoga to bears.

Posted by: anonymous irishman at November 24, 2015 02:07 PM (DJgfL)

161 Mikey, be thankful it was a Monolith. Just think if it was a pillar... horny monkeys.

Posted by: Anna Puma at November 24, 2015 02:08 PM (7MJMR)

162 >>>Erdogan says Russia was looking to bomb its allies, the Turkmen (who are not Turks, actually).


What if they self-identify as Turks?

Posted by: Bruce Boehner at November 24, 2015 02:08 PM (E5UB0)

163 So... the Turks implicitly admit they fired across the border and shot down a Russian plane in Syrian airspace, where they had permission to be? Because they didn't like the Russians' choice of targets?

There is no universe where that is not an act of war. And as the aggressor, I really, really doubt NATO comes into play here on Turkey's side either as a matter of military policy or under the terms of the treaty itself.

Go to town, Putin. Erdogan's an asshole anyway.

Posted by: Apostate at November 24, 2015 02:08 PM (48avi)

164 "Well the Germans are pretty well out of this one, but I hear the Japanese are rethinking their whole defeated pacifists thing."

Abe is trying to buck up their patriotic spirits, but in the last international poll I read, only 10% of Japanese say that they would fight for their country.

The corresponding figure in China was 90%, by the way.

Posted by: torquewrench at November 24, 2015 02:08 PM (noWW6)

165 I don't think this will lead to a world war.


Whatever your opinion is worth ... it can. Non-zero possibility.

The issue is that the room is full of explosives, and we're playing with matches. "See? That match didn't set it off. Gimme another."

Whee.

Posted by: ReactionaryMonster at November 24, 2015 02:08 PM (0NdlF)

166 Posted by: MTF at November 24, 2015 02:07 PM (TxJGV)

I have to admit, I laughed when I read that alleged dialogue between prison guards. Not in a good way, but in a "of course..." way

"arbeit macht frei" is probably not something you can joke about freely in Germany though...

Posted by: Harry Paratestes at November 24, 2015 02:08 PM (AkOaV)

167 Guess what Putin will be chomping on this Thanksgiving? Turkey!

Posted by: @votermom at November 24, 2015 02:09 PM (cbfNE)

168 I heard it was right on the border. So where will they bury the survivors?

Michael Moore said they could crash at his place ...

Posted by: Adriane the Historical Critic ... at November 24, 2015 02:09 PM (jnAIZ)

169 I'm amused that some people don't think we are in a world war already.

Posted by: Brian Williams at November 24, 2015 02:09 PM (/tuJf)

170 Abe is trying to buck up their patriotic spirits, but in the last international poll I read, only 10% of Japanese say that they would fight for their country.

What about after they weaponize Miku for Great Justice?

Posted by: ReactionaryMonster at November 24, 2015 02:10 PM (0NdlF)

171 ack

Posted by: JackStraw at November 24, 2015 02:10 PM (/tuJf)

172 Not to upset anyone, and not to be alarmist, but when Archduke Ferdinand was assassinated in Sarajevo, no one predicted the chain reactions that would ensue and spark off a world war.

I think that's on everyone's minds. Putin is pushing and pushing and eventually its all going to hell.

People are treating the guy as some kind of folk hero mostly because he seems to be the only world leader with a functioning pair of testes, but Putin is a very, very bad guy. He's ex-KGB, murders his opponents, and is very tied into the Russian mob.

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at November 24, 2015 02:10 PM (39g3+)

173 What about after they weaponize Miku for Great Justice?

You should have zigged.

Posted by: Anna Puma at November 24, 2015 02:10 PM (7MJMR)

174 147 The question of who's an ethnic Turk gets complicated quickly, it seems: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkic_peoples .

Posted by: anonymous irishman at November 24, 2015 02:11 PM (DJgfL)

175 Whatever your opinion is worth ... it can. Non-zero possibility.

The issue is that the room is full of explosives, and we're playing with matches. "See? That match didn't set it off. Gimme another."

Whee.
Posted by: ReactionaryMonster at November 24, 2015 02:08 PM (0NdlF)

_________

Well sure, there's a non-zero possibility of just about anything happening. Obama could resign tomorrow to try his hand at running a B&B in Vermont. Chances are it's not happening, but there's a greater than 0% possibility of it happening.

Posted by: Monsieur Mew Mew at November 24, 2015 02:11 PM (0LHZx)

176 Incirlik, also air rescue crew at some other Turkish spots.

Erdogan has wanted Assad out for awhile. Access deal maybe.

Russia confirms one pilot dead and one rescue crew dead according to CNN.

Posted by: Danube River Guide at November 24, 2015 02:11 PM (mcm0N)

177 142 No matter what happens 9bama will not act

PUTIN knows this
so does ISIS

Posted by: ginaswo at November 24, 2015 02:04 PM (qxNrP)


This is absolutely true, which makes it a perfect time for Vlad to cause some havoc in the Middle East in order to get oil back in the $80 bbl range.

The economy of Russia depends on a reasonable price for oil. By using Assad as an excuse and provoking the Turks to fire on him, he has a reason to push some buttons and blow some shit up.

If he can get Iraq or maybe even the Saudis to jump in, he'll have everything he wants.

Just remember, he doesn't give a shit about Assad, Islam, Syria, Turkey or anything other than oil.

Posted by: jwest at November 24, 2015 02:11 PM (Zs4uk)

178 Well if you ask ISIS we are in a world war. If you ask da zero, we have a lot of workplace violence that has nothing to do with e-slam and could be solved with a little common sense gun control.

Posted by: maddogg at November 24, 2015 02:12 PM (xWW96)

179 Thank Christ mini-moo is here.

Putin bombing Turkey wouldn't be insanity. it would be spreading influence and helping to kill NATO and make JEF look like the asshole that he is.

And he doesn't even need to bomb them. He can arm the Kurds and let THEM make Turkey's life a living Hell.

Posted by: Blue Hen at November 24, 2015 02:12 PM (326rv)

180 " the expert says that Russians were not there to bomb ISIS, but rather to support Assad's forces against non-ISIS rebels."

Just my armchair opinion:

So what? Assad asked Russia for help. They are an ally of Russia.

Obama, Clinton, McCain, Kerry, and Graham have destabilized Iraq, Libya, and now Syria. None of this has helped the US in any way. It's caused massive problems for Europe and us with the expanding Sunni Caliphate.

Turkey and Saudi Arabia, Obama and team seem to have been arming ISIS, Al-Queda = Non-ISIS rebels.

It's just so weird. Obama giving Iran the bomb, billions, and offering them defensive protection.

The name, Hussein, as in B. Hussein Obama is ONLY a Sunni name. Not Shia.

Obama is consistent in his fucking over America 100%. So there is a reason for this. If he was just a fuck-up he'd get it right on occasion just by per chance.

Strange to be rooting for Russia but Turkey was gunning to stop Russia and protect ISIS and hurt the Kurds.

Turkey also has been a really shitty ally and should not be in NATO any longer since it's clearly not a secular country any longer under Erodgen.

Posted by: Misfortune & Pestilence at November 24, 2015 02:12 PM (recCK)

181 Shooting down a Russian jet was unnecessary and stupid. Couldn't the Russians and the Turks have picked up the phone? Does anyone seriously think Obama is going to be willing to back Turkey of the Russians decide to teach them a harsh lesson, and starts bombing runs over their border positions?

We are all in Putin's hands right now, and peace is totally at risk. If he decides to forego an attack on Turkey I'm sending him a sincere thank you note. The Turks are crazy as hell to have done this without plenty of consultation with their allies beforehand.

Posted by: MTF at November 24, 2015 02:12 PM (TxJGV)

182 I think that's on everyone's minds. Putin is pushing and pushing and eventually its all going to hell.

People are treating the guy as some kind of folk hero mostly because he seems to be the only world leader with a functioning pair of testes, but Putin is a very, very bad guy. He's ex-KGB, murders his opponents, and is very tied into the Russian mob.
Posted by: Christopher Taylor at November 24, 2015 02:10 PM (39g3+)


I guess it's because America and our allies have been so fucking wrong since the Arab spring about what is going on in the middle east, about who we have backed, and about the lies our government has told everybody.

Then Putin says, essentially "I don't know what the fuck the Americans and Europeans are talking about, but I'm going to just fix this mess."

Then a NATO country shoots down a Russian plane, while US-backed "moderate rebels" shoot the pilots.

Posted by: Harry Paratestes at November 24, 2015 02:12 PM (AkOaV)

183 Why do I get the uneasy feeling that Putin's looking for an excuse to seize the Bosphorus?

Posted by: Country Singer at November 24, 2015 02:07 PM (8Y7+f)


I had similar thoughts. I can't think of a way that Russia could project enough power to achieve it, however. That said, Russia would love to have control over all travel between the Black Sea and the Med.

Posted by: Colorado Alex at November 24, 2015 02:12 PM (OiH3z)

184 Obama must be really pissed.....
about his precious Climate Change convention being upstaged by reality.

Posted by: JoeF. at November 24, 2015 02:12 PM (j+FUF)

185 >>>Not to upset anyone, and not to be alarmist, but when Archduke Ferdinand was assassinated in Sarajevo, no one predicted the chain reactions that would ensue and spark off a world war.


Pffft. Too many nuclear powers. MAD and all that. It won't lead to nuclear war, but death by a thousand cuts.

Posted by: Bruce Boehner at November 24, 2015 02:12 PM (E5UB0)

186 When it comes to the Middle East, one event is often overlooked. When England turned over the oil fields to Saudi Arabia.

Posted by: Anna Puma at November 24, 2015 02:13 PM (7MJMR)

187 >and is very tied into the Russian mob.

Uh, tied in? Putin has transcended organized crime.

Posted by: Ghost of kari at November 24, 2015 02:13 PM (xuouz)

188 >>Well if you ask ISIS we are in a world war.

Exactly. And they are going to stop just because Obama refuses to fight back.

Posted by: JackStraw at November 24, 2015 02:13 PM (/tuJf)

189 179 Thank Christ mini-moo is here.

Putin bombing Turkey wouldn't be insanity. it would be spreading influence and helping to kill NATO and make JEF look like the asshole that he is.

And he doesn't even need to bomb them. He can arm the Kurds and let THEM make Turkey's life a living Hell.
Posted by: Blue Hen at November 24, 2015 02:12 PM (326rv)

___________

Russia ain't bombing shit.

The Kurds have been a PIA to Turkey for a long time. Nothing new there.

Bottom line is not much of anything will happen. But it's fun to go all doomsday prediction I suppose.

Posted by: Monsieur Mew Mew at November 24, 2015 02:14 PM (0LHZx)

190 "6 - Progressive president Obama will bring us WWIII."

WILL? HAS BRUNG!!

Posted by: OK, Thanks, bye at November 24, 2015 02:15 PM (ucB75)

191 The economy of Russia depends on a reasonable price for oil. By using Assad as an excuse and provoking the Turks to fire on him, he has a reason to push some buttons and blow some shit up.

If he can get Iraq or maybe even the Saudis to jump in, he'll have everything he wants.

Just remember, he doesn't give a shit about Assad, Islam, Syria, Turkey or anything other than oil.

Posted by: jwest a

Cutting off ISIS oil accomplishes the following:

Screws over ISIS
Screws over Erdogan
lowers the amount of oil available in the world spot market

He's seen as doing more to blunt ISIS than JEF.
He gets to blow shit up, and be seen as blowing shit up

Posted by: Blue Hen at November 24, 2015 02:15 PM (326rv)

192 given that Putin has had Russian planes deliberately making incursions
into other countries' airspaces around the world for several years now,
the Russians have lost all benefit of the doubt.
Posted by: Maetenloch at November 24, 2015 02:00 PM


Until now, what reactions has he gotten? Yeah, the media yapped about the Russkies invading various airspaces, but no government has called him on it.

He HAD to keep ratcheting up. It's what he does. The Turks and one Syrian bunch or another pushed back. He knows what to do about that. Choom Boy wimped out. Teh Poot knows what to do about that, too.

He's a scumbag, but he knows how to play the game, and if he keeps going with the bullying tactics, he'll get what he wants while the Western "leaders" are holding hands in France singing "Kumbaya."

Posted by: MrScribbler at November 24, 2015 02:16 PM (dbC6X)

193 Putin's enemies have to avoid giving him reasonable justification for counter attacks. He is a master baiter.

Posted by: Max Rockatansky at November 24, 2015 02:16 PM (FCAbp)

194 Abe is trying to buck up their patriotic spirits, but in the last international poll I read, only 10% of Japanese say that they would fight for their country.

The corresponding figure in China was 90%, by the way.

Posted by: torquewrench
-------------------------------------
Fowah scoah and sebben yeah ago! Fowah fadda bring foth gleat nation!

Posted by: Shinzo Abe Lincoln at November 24, 2015 02:16 PM (E5UB0)

195 Don't forget to BLAME TEH JOOOS!

http://tinyurl.com/opg6wku

Posted by: OK, Thanks, bye at November 24, 2015 02:16 PM (ucB75)

196
They're going to get us all killed arent they?

Posted by: fixerupper at November 24, 2015 02:16 PM (8XRCm)

197 *bling forth* not bring forth.

Posted by: Shinzo Abe Lincoln at November 24, 2015 02:16 PM (E5UB0)

198 186 When it comes to the Middle East, one event is often overlooked. When England turned over the oil fields to Saudi Arabia.
Posted by: Anna Puma at November 24, 2015 02:13 PM (7MJMR)

*********

Oh ghee everyone is forgetting the proxy war in Yemen....

Add that into the mix.

Is it too early to start drinking?

Posted by: Danube River Guide at November 24, 2015 02:16 PM (mcm0N)

199 186 When it comes to the Middle East, one event is often overlooked. When England turned over the oil fields to Saudi Arabia.
Posted by: Anna Puma at November 24, 2015 02:13 PM (7MJMR)

That was us. Well, US companies.

England was Iran. Well, it was Royal Dutch Shell and .... .... one of the standard oils (Standard of NJ maybe? so Mobil?)

Posted by: Harry Paratestes at November 24, 2015 02:16 PM (AkOaV)

200 Turkey Shoots Down Russian Plane; Syrian Militiamen Shoot At Pilot as He's Parachuting to the Ground


This Thanksgiving...Turkey shoots back.

Posted by: Jollyroger at November 24, 2015 02:17 PM (t06LC)

201 All I'm saying is remember that time when Turkey, our ally in the NATO, wouldn't let the 4th I.D. go in through Northern Iraq a few years back?

Let's not be in such a rush to war.

Posted by: CozMark at November 24, 2015 02:17 PM (CbGSW)

202 I think da Zero would wage real war against conservatives, given the chance. And he wouldn't drop warning leaflets prior to bombing us either.

Posted by: maddogg at November 24, 2015 02:17 PM (xWW96)

203 Will Obama pardon a dog this Thanksgiving?

Posted by: Bruce Boehner at November 24, 2015 02:17 PM (E5UB0)

204 Said this earlier. Shooting down the plane is one thing, disputable, but IF (24-hour-rule) someone shot the crew on the way down those folks just gave Putin casus belli for whatever the fuck he wants to do in Syria.

Posted by: JEM at November 24, 2015 02:17 PM (o+SC1)

205 But it's fun to go all doomsday prediction I suppose.
Posted by: Monsieur Mew Mew

I guess that it's fun to lie out your ass.

Watching a major power park a warship off the coast of another country isn't a "doomsday prediction"; it's an observation.

Your grasp of foreign and military policy is exceeded only by your fiscal acumen.

Posted by: Blue Hen at November 24, 2015 02:18 PM (326rv)

206 Then Putin says, essentially "I don't know what the fuck the Americans and Europeans are talking about, but I'm going to just fix this mess."

Posted by: Harry Paratestes


Putin has no interest in 'fixing' anything. He just ensuring the chaos benefits himself and Russia. He couldn't give a shit if this stuff lasts for a hundred years.

Posted by: weft cut-loop at November 24, 2015 02:18 PM (9YDUz)

207 >>England was Iran. Well, it was Royal Dutch Shell and .

It was BP.

Posted by: JackStraw at November 24, 2015 02:18 PM (/tuJf)

208 Progressive president Obama will bring us WWIII."

WILL? HAS BRUNG!!



Posted by: OK, Thanks, bye at November 24, 2015 02:15 PM (ucB75)


So.... just like the last two then.

Posted by: Jollyroger at November 24, 2015 02:18 PM (t06LC)

209 196
They're going to get us all killed arent they?
Posted by: fixerupper at November 24, 2015 02:16 PM (8XRCm)

They're certainly going to try.

Posted by: Insomniac - Pale Horse/Death 2016 at November 24, 2015 02:19 PM (kpqmD)

210 Turkmen are a mish-mash anyway. The Romans settled retired troops from all over the empire there when they treated the place as their vacation home away from home, including plenty of Gallic cavalry, before moving there themselves full time. In post-Roman times the place was regularly invaded by nearly every country in the Black Sea area, as well as migrants from the eastern steppes and Mongolia. What is a Turkmen? I always thought it was a muslim from the area south of the Urals who spoke Turk. Lots of ethnicities qualify if that's the definition.

Posted by: MTF at November 24, 2015 02:19 PM (TxJGV)

211 18 If only Obama could go to Russia like Nixon went to China.

He'll be retiring to Iran when his assignment is over.

Posted by: despair at November 24, 2015 02:19 PM (VrdxH)

212 given that Putin has had Russian planes deliberately making incursions into other countries' airspaces around the world for several years now

Yeah. Soviets loved doing that, it was a kind of "whose wang is bigger" contest, provoking and annoying. If you don't do anything about it, well then that becomes Russian airspace. If you do do something about it, then you're antagonistic and aggressive.

Russians have no benefit of the doubt in this issue. If the Turks say Russians were in their airspace, they were. Shooting the pilots is awful and wrong, but a separate issue.

Amazingly, President Obama came down on the right side of this: defending Turkey's right to protect their airspace.

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at November 24, 2015 02:19 PM (39g3+)

213 206 Then Putin says, essentially "I don't know what the fuck the Americans and Europeans are talking about, but I'm going to just fix this mess."

Posted by: Harry Paratestes

Putin has no interest in 'fixing' anything. He just ensuring the chaos benefits himself and Russia. He couldn't give a shit if this stuff lasts for a hundred years.
Posted by: weft cut-loop at November 24, 2015 02:18 PM (9YDUz)

Don't burst his bubble.

Posted by: Danube River Guide at November 24, 2015 02:19 PM (mcm0N)

214 BP not Shell **

Posted by: Harry Paratestes at November 24, 2015 02:19 PM (AkOaV)

215 Our President, right now is looking at the long game.

He is focused on analyzing factors that will ultimately impact his decision-making in 2016.

He needs to understand and evaluate how certain groups of human beings of all races, particularly men between ages 18 and 24, who when confronted by an adversary, will react, retreat or go on to victory.

He needs to evaluate their leaders and determine if they have the skills, experience and guts to lead men and survive the crucible.

He will need to do all of this by before March.

Then and only then, will he be able to make his NCAA men's basketball bracket.

Posted by: Adirondack Patriot at November 24, 2015 02:20 PM (NjiZL)

216 So where will they bury the survivors?

That used to be funny. In this case, it looks like they really might bury them.

Posted by: Stringer Davis at November 24, 2015 02:20 PM (xq1UY)

217 Putin has no interest in 'fixing' anything. He just ensuring the chaos benefits himself and Russia. He couldn't give a shit if this stuff lasts for a hundred years.
Posted by: weft cut-loop at November 24, 2015 02:18 PM (9YDUz)

Don't burst his bubble.
Posted by: Danube River Guide at November 24, 2015 02:19 PM (mcm0N)

Well, I mean, from a personal level no I don't think he cares.

but from a geo-political level, yeah he wants Russia to once again be a super power.

Posted by: Harry Paratestes at November 24, 2015 02:20 PM (AkOaV)

218 But it's crazy to ask whose side Obama is on.

Posted by: Feh at November 24, 2015 02:20 PM (fUWsy)

219 "Obama giving Iran the bomb, billions, and offering them defensive protection. The name, Hussein, as in B. Hussein Obama is ONLY a Sunni name. Not Shia."

It doesn't seem to add up at first, but then one reflects that Obama's fundamental philosophy is anti-Western and his long term goal is to confer advantage on all opponents of Western civilization. He'll paper over schisms among the opponents en route to the larger target.

Also recall that Arab Muslim proverb.

Me against my brother
Me and my brother against my cousin
Me, my brother and my cousin against the next tribe
...
...
...

Posted by: torquewrench at November 24, 2015 02:21 PM (noWW6)

220 >> Putin has no interest in 'fixing' anything. He just
>> ensuring the chaos benefits himself and Russia. He
>> couldn't give a shit if this stuff lasts for a hundred years.

You've answered your own question. 'Chaos benefiting himself and Russia' equates to having 'fixed' the situation. He doesn't want to lose a bunch of jets around the edges, but he wants a halfway-stable client state that distracts the West from whatever else he might want to do.

Posted by: JEM at November 24, 2015 02:21 PM (o+SC1)

221 He just ensuring the chaos benefits himself and Russia.

Which is what any nation's leader should be doing.

Bring back nationalism. This globalist "We are the world" feel-good-ism means importing Muslims into Western nations.

Wanna guess where that leads to?

Posted by: ReactionaryMonster at November 24, 2015 02:22 PM (0NdlF)

222
"Obama must be really pissed.....
about his precious Climate Change convention being upstaged by reality.----JoeF."
Word has yet to reach him in his bunker.

Posted by: Tilikum Killer Assault Whale at November 24, 2015 02:22 PM (uhftQ)

223 Our President, right now is looking at the long game.

He is focused on analyzing factors that will ultimately impact his decision-making in 2016.


Then and only then, will he be able to make his NCAA men's basketball bracket.
Posted by: Adirondack Patriot


*sad golf clap*

Posted by: Blue Hen at November 24, 2015 02:22 PM (326rv)

224 It was BP.
Posted by: JackStraw at November 24, 2015 02:18 PM (/tuJf)

Yeah I had to google it.

I read an awesome book about a decade ago that chronicled the history of oil from the finding of oil in PA until like the 1970s.

I can't remember the title, or find the book, but it was an awesome read.

Posted by: Harry Paratestes at November 24, 2015 02:22 PM (AkOaV)

225 What we need now is Hillary's reset button.

Posted by: The Great White Snark at November 24, 2015 02:22 PM (pItB9)

226 Turkey, strange place. It was "Asia Minor" in the Bible and very Greek at the time. Then they got invaded by Mongols, now its sort of Muslim, but they don't have much of a specific identity, just a lot of land nobody else really wants.

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at November 24, 2015 02:23 PM (39g3+)

227
I would suggest that all American men avoid Turkey because their prison guards and military men take great delight in dorking indefensible men in the squeaker till you admit your guilt.

I know because they dorked me for three years!

Posted by: Billy Hayes (Midnight Express) at November 24, 2015 02:23 PM (OiFtZ)

228
Ace wrote, "Not to upset anyone, and not to be alarmist, but when Archduke Ferdinand was assassinated in Sarajevo, no one predicted the chain reactions that would ensue and spark off a world war."

Read Barbara Tuchman's book, 'The Guns Of August'. One of her premises is that Europe had become such a tinderbox any random spark could set it off. If it hadn't been the shooting of the Archduke by a fucked-up Serb, it would've been something else equally seemingly insignificant and picayune.

I'm paraphrasing, of course. Barbara Tuchmanwouldn't use'fucked-up' in a sentence.

Posted by: troyriser at November 24, 2015 02:23 PM (cCEFD)

229 Well the Germans are pretty well out of this one,



About that ...



http://preview.tinyurl.com/ox8olzq
---
holy shit, obama's not going to just undo the victory in Iraq or the cold war, he's set the stage to undo the end of WW2 as well.
FML.

Posted by: Methos is just going to go ahead and panic now at November 24, 2015 02:23 PM (ZbV+0)

230 Amazingly, President Obama came down on the right side of this: defending Turkey's right to protect their airspace.


Heh, da Zero has been Putin's favorite public bukake target for the last 7 years and hurt da Zero's feelings. This is his retaliation.

Posted by: maddogg at November 24, 2015 02:23 PM (xWW96)

231 Any chance the Rooskies will simply counter-rebuke and the whole mess will blow over?

Posted by: Weasel at November 24, 2015 02:23 PM (6xtq3)

232 I hope Putin uses a goat as a condom when he fucks Erdogan.

Posted by: Cloyd Freud, Unemployed at November 24, 2015 02:24 PM (u5gzz)

233 What we need now is Hillary's reset button.
Posted by: The Great White Snark

"Last thing we saw was the monkey frantically trying to put the cork back in"

Posted by: Just the punchline at November 24, 2015 02:24 PM (326rv)

234 Muslims don't abide by the Geneva Convention?

Posted by: Valiant at November 24, 2015 02:24 PM (2bqlb)

235 Scary stuff. I wish we had someone competent in charge.

===

Just relax. Barry has this climate catastrophe covered.

Posted by: Bigby's Chicken Fingers at November 24, 2015 02:24 PM (3ZtZW)

236 If you don't do anything about it, well then that becomes Russian airspace.

Apply that same logic to the "refugee" crisis.

Will Europe become Muslim land?

Posted by: ReactionaryMonster at November 24, 2015 02:24 PM (0NdlF)

237 Frankly those that defend the Turks in this defend Islamism. The Turks should be kicked out of NATO. The Turks sided with the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt, they are now siding with Hamas, and they want Assad gone to put up a pro-Ottoman Islamist government in Syria. Is that something we should want? In that case Assad sounds better.

Somehow the Neo-Cons don't understand this, or choose to ignore it. It is another reason I will never vote for Rubio, or anyone like him. They will bring about the same result as Obama or Hillary would...to make the Islamic world stronger at the expense of the West.

BTW: Remember how Turkey refused to the help the US in the Iraq War, and how they used this so called war against ISIS to bomb the Kurds. The Russians are closer to the truth on this one. I know it is not fun to say that, to know America is basically on the side of Saudi Wahhabist, Neo-Ottomans and the Muslim Brotherhood...but sadly we are. Rubio, if elected won't change any of that.



Posted by: William Eaton at November 24, 2015 02:24 PM (q52Ma)

238 231 Any chance the Rooskies will simply counter-rebuke and the whole mess will blow over?
Posted by: Weasel at November 24, 2015 02:23 PM (6xtq3)

Yes.

I'd say thats the most likely outcome.

But we are playing with fire here.

Posted by: Harry Paratestes at November 24, 2015 02:25 PM (AkOaV)

239 Fuck em all to death

Posted by: Ghost of kari at November 24, 2015 02:25 PM (xuouz)

240 Any chance the Rooskies will simply counter-rebuke and the whole mess will blow over?
Posted by: Weasel

Yes, of course.

Now, if YOU were Putin, and you were presented with this challenge/opportunity, what would YOU do?

Posted by: Blue Hen at November 24, 2015 02:25 PM (326rv)

241 He's seen as doing more to blunt ISIS than JEF.
He gets to blow shit up, and be seen as blowing shit up

Posted by: Blue Hen at November 24, 2015 02:15 PM (326rv)


Putin has to take out more than just he ISIS oil.

He needs to cut capacity in some of the other cheap producers, like Saudi Arabia and Kuwait. He knows Obama is a pussy and he also knows that the elements in the U.S. who would stand up to him also want the Middle East supply curtailed so that the North Dakota fields can get back in action.

And he doesn't mind being the "bad guy". It enhances his image in Russia.

Don't know exactly how he's going to craft the narrative, but he's gong to straighten this market out.

Posted by: jwest at November 24, 2015 02:25 PM (Zs4uk)

242 Harry
Think you are correct about Saudi. That was ARAMCO--originally--I want to say Standard Oil.

Posted by: Danube River Guide at November 24, 2015 02:25 PM (mcm0N)

243 Posted by: William Eaton at November 24, 2015 02:24 PM (q52Ma)

all true, but won't matter.

The politicians have this going for them when it comes to the middle east:

Too complicated to sum up in a soundbite, so most people don't pay attention.

Posted by: Harry Paratestes at November 24, 2015 02:26 PM (AkOaV)

244 244 Harry Paratestes

The Prize: The Epic Quest for Oil, Money, and Power by Daniel Yergin.

Posted by: NaCly Dog at November 24, 2015 02:26 PM (u82oZ)

245 holy shit, obama's not going to just undo the victory in Iraq or the cold war, he's set the stage to undo the end of WW2 as well.

Who thought it was a good idea to alienate Germans in their own nation with mass migration of Islamic foreigners?

They made going Nazi the reasonable choice. Lovely.

Posted by: ReactionaryMonster at November 24, 2015 02:26 PM (0NdlF)

246 240 Well I would strongly and vehemently counter-rebuke.

...and start pushing buttons.

Posted by: Weasel at November 24, 2015 02:26 PM (6xtq3)

247 224 Harry Paratestes. Sigh.

Posted by: NaCly Dog at November 24, 2015 02:27 PM (u82oZ)

248
So, US gonna release their AWACS data of what happened and settle the "did Han shot first" question?

Nope? Then the default assumption here is the Ottomans are at fault.

Posted by: Laurie David's Cervix at November 24, 2015 02:27 PM (kdS6q)

249 Now, if YOU were Putin, and you were presented with this challenge/opportunity, what would YOU do?



Crater.
Rubble.
Bounce.
Salt.

Posted by: rickb223 at November 24, 2015 02:27 PM (hQt/L)

250 242 Harry
Think you are correct about Saudi. That was ARAMCO--originally--I want to say Standard Oil.
Posted by: Danube River Guide at November 24, 2015 02:25 PM (mcm0N)

Yeah. American oil men found oil in the Saudi desert. Basically the Saudi royals wanted water, they agreed to drill them some water wells if they could keep the oil.

Saudis said sure.

Rest is history.

Posted by: Harry Paratestes at November 24, 2015 02:27 PM (AkOaV)

251 Shots fired and hostages taken in French town near Belgian border. Fox reporting just now.

Another setback in progress.

Posted by: Jane D'oh at November 24, 2015 02:27 PM (FsuaD)

252 I guess that it's fun to lie out your ass.

Watching a major power park a warship off the coast of another country isn't a "doomsday prediction"; it's an observation.

Your grasp of foreign and military policy is exceeded only by your fiscal acumen.
Posted by: Blue Hen at November 24, 2015 02:18 PM (326rv)

____________

STFU already. The same screaming and hollering was around when Putin took over Crimea. How'd that WW3 work out for you?

Posted by: Monsieur Mew Mew at November 24, 2015 02:28 PM (0LHZx)

253 ARAMACO - Seven Sisters. (two versions of Standard Oil). I don't remember what happened to them.

Posted by: THDeering at November 24, 2015 02:28 PM (Ymx+z)

254 Co-Inky-Dink: On Turner Classic Movies today:
Alert Today - Alive Tomorrow (1956) This short film promotes the need for cooperation and neighborliness in the event of a nuclear disaster and associated civil defense procedures.

Posted by: OK, Thanks, bye at November 24, 2015 02:28 PM (ucB75)

255 I know it is not fun to say that, to know America is basically on the side of Saudi Wahhabist, Neo-Ottomans and the Muslim Brotherhood...but sadly we are.

Realize that America is Carthage, sacrificing infants for the sake of material prosperity. ("Punished" with a baby)

Being allies to a Satanic cult is no surprise at all.

Posted by: ReactionaryMonster at November 24, 2015 02:28 PM (0NdlF)

256 There's a chance the Russians will just criticize Turkey, but there is precedent for them attacking Turkey. They have a sort of history wanting to control the whole of the Black Sea.

Check out the map some time: in 2008 they attack Georgia, in 2014 they attack Ukraine, and now they're tangling with Turkey....

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at November 24, 2015 02:28 PM (39g3+)

257 Harry Paratestes. Sigh.
Posted by: NaCly Dog at November 24, 2015 02:27 PM (u82oZ)

?

Posted by: Harry Paratestes at November 24, 2015 02:28 PM (AkOaV)

258 Probably end up partitioning Syria. Drop the neo-con crap.

Posted by: Danube River Guide at November 24, 2015 02:28 PM (mcm0N)

259 Your grasp of foreign and military policy is exceeded only by your fiscal acumen.
Posted by: Blue Hen at November 24, 2015 02:18 PM (326rv)


------------


Don't forget his high moral standards.

Posted by: Soona at November 24, 2015 02:28 PM (Fmupd)

260 It was Aramco. US was excluded from Arabia by the San Remo Agreement of 1923. So it really was all Hoover's fault, after all.

The Pew companies and their successors (mostly with Sun in their name) got nationalized in Venezuela no less than three times, and went back every time, until they finally brought in a female CEO and went into the bread-and-milk trade.

Posted by: Stringer Davis at November 24, 2015 02:28 PM (xq1UY)

261 >>I read an awesome book about a decade ago that chronicled the history of oil from the finding of oil in PA until like the 1970s.

Operation AJAX. Very first operation of the CIA.

Not coincidentally, one of the great fears at the time was that Iranian oil fields would fall under control of the Soviet Union.

So we took out the democratically elected leader and stuck the Shah back in power and here we are. And yes, I think Putin is exceptionally well versed in the history of this region and the value of Iran to his gas station.

He's not doing this just to tweak us. He wants to control the middle east oil, at least the Shia controlled oil.

Posted by: JackStraw at November 24, 2015 02:29 PM (/tuJf)

262 Moo-moo telling people to STFU is ironic.

Troll him some more.

Posted by: ReactionaryMonster at November 24, 2015 02:29 PM (0NdlF)

263
STFU already. The same screaming and hollering was around when Putin took over Crimea. How'd that WW3 work out for you?


You're ignorant of geography and history enough to think that's over and done with.

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at November 24, 2015 02:29 PM (39g3+)

264 253 ARAMACO - Seven Sisters. (two versions of Standard Oil). I don't remember what happened to them.

Posted by: THDeering at November 24, 2015 02:28 PM (Ymx+z)

Well Standard Oil ended up as Exxon-Mobil

and Aramco still exists. Just got nationalized.

It's now called Saudi Aramco.

Posted by: Harry Paratestes at November 24, 2015 02:29 PM (AkOaV)

265 WILL? HAS BRUNG!!

===

Will Hasbrung is a friend of mine, sir.

Posted by: Bigby's Chicken Fingers at November 24, 2015 02:29 PM (3ZtZW)

266
Your grasp of foreign and military policy is exceeded only by your fiscal acumen.
Posted by: Blue Hen at November 24, 2015 02:18 PM (326rv)

_______

Speaking of my financial accumeb.... remember back in August when stocks were tanking? Remember also how the doom and gloom types were freaking out? And remember how I said, just chill the fuck out, this is nothing to worry about?

DJIA is about 2K higher right now than in late Aug.

So yeah maybe you should listen to someone who actually knows what the fuck they're talking about every now and then.

Posted by: Monsieur Mew Mew at November 24, 2015 02:30 PM (0LHZx)

267 Putin has to take out more than just he ISIS oil.

He needs to cut capacity in some of the other cheap producers, like Saudi Arabia and Kuwait. He knows Obama is a pussy and he also knows that the elements in the U.S. who would stand up to him also want the Middle East supply curtailed so that the North Dakota fields can get back in action.

And he doesn't mind being the "bad guy". It enhances his image in Russia.

Don't know exactly how he's going to craft the narrative, but he's gong to straighten this market out.
Posted by: jwest

I agree that more action would be needed, but the US will keep its export oil ban in place. One of the bigger problems is softening demand; the world economy is having serious problems.

But in the short term, it hurts ISIS and Turkey, so there's that. And if any of this oil is making its way to Europe, cutting it off dovetails nicely with playing games with Gazprom gas and oil flowing West...With winter approaching.

Posted by: Blue Hen at November 24, 2015 02:30 PM (326rv)

268 How'd that WW3 work out for you?



Posted by: Monsieur Mew Mew


I'd submit that we don't quite know yet.

Posted by: Moderate Salami, weeping for our dead Republic at November 24, 2015 02:30 PM (/Ho8c)

269 Hey there . 1st time poster .Yippie ! Found this interesting as I was working and hitting buttons . Bulk of black market ISIS oil is being routed thru Turkey . Bilal
Erdogan , son of the Turkish President is a major player here and
pockets millions through these transaction http://journal-neo.org/2015/08/24/erdogan-s-dirty-dangerous-isis-games/


Posted by: Zuma at November 24, 2015 02:30 PM (jL0i/)

270 BREAKING: Roubaix: Several wounded as hostages taken in French town

Posted by: RWC - Team BOHICA at November 24, 2015 02:30 PM (fWAjv)

271 there's no rule that world wars have to be two sided.

Posted by: x at November 24, 2015 02:30 PM (57fhp)

272 WWIII? It's in the timeline, bitches!

Posted by: Gene Roddenberry at November 24, 2015 02:30 PM (VrdxH)

273 I inadvertently tuned in the Glenn Beck show on Sirius for a moment this morning and he was making the exact same Archduke of Sarajevo analogy.

Posted by: peacelovewoodstock at November 24, 2015 02:30 PM (X+HRW)

274 I'm sure some nerd had game theoried the shit out of this scenario long ago. I wonder how it came out.

Posted by: Max Rockatansky at November 24, 2015 02:30 PM (FCAbp)

275 Me against my brother
Me and my brother against my cousin
Me, my brother and my cousin against the next tribe

HULK SMASH

Posted by: Bigby's Chicken Fingers at November 24, 2015 02:31 PM (3ZtZW)

276 He's not doing this just to tweak us. He wants to control the middle east oil, at least the Shia controlled oil.
Posted by: JackStraw at November 24, 2015 02:29 PM (/tuJf)

Oh, for sure that's in play.

Posted by: Harry Paratestes at November 24, 2015 02:31 PM (AkOaV)

277 Hummm. Perhaps we should aid Al Qadea in it's struggle against ISIS?

http://goo.gl/Kshk5q

Posted by: maddogg at November 24, 2015 02:31 PM (xWW96)

278 A hostage situation has been reported in the northern French town of Roubaix near Belgium.

Reports so far suggest that the situation is not linked to terrorism.

French news outlet iTele said men have fired at police after an attempted robbery went wrong. They are believed to be holding a family hostage.

Posted by: RWC - Team BOHICA at November 24, 2015 02:31 PM (fWAjv)

279 ARAMCO British, not US.

"So that the corn and oil of Mesopotamia might be ours." --Lawrence.

Posted by: Stringer Davis at November 24, 2015 02:31 PM (xq1UY)

280 maybe you should listen to someone who actually knows what the fuck they're talking about every now and then.
Posted by: Monsieur Mew Mew

Awesome! When is that guy gonna show up?

You're still an asshole for lying and claiming that observations are "doomsday predictions".

Go collect your pineapple mini-moo.

Posted by: Blue Hen at November 24, 2015 02:31 PM (326rv)

281 Shooting the pilots is inexcusable.

Posted by: Dack Thrombosis at November 24, 2015 02:31 PM (4ErVI)

282 Posted by: Zuma at November 24, 2015 02:30 PM (jL0i/)

welcome, and yes -- that's been the all-but-confirmed rumor for a year or so now.

Of course American MSM and politicians ignore it.

Posted by: Harry Paratestes at November 24, 2015 02:32 PM (AkOaV)

283 263
STFU already. The same screaming and hollering was around when Putin took over Crimea. How'd that WW3 work out for you?

You're ignorant of geography and history enough to think that's over and done with.
Posted by: Christopher Taylor at November 24, 2015 02:29 PM (39g3+)

________

You do realize Russia has been invading neighbors for oh, 500 or so years? No it's not over, it will never be over. It's also why panicking over something as routine as that is silly.

Posted by: Monsieur Mew Mew at November 24, 2015 02:32 PM (0LHZx)

284 "The name, Hussein, as in B. Hussein Obama is ONLY a Sunni name. Not Shia. "

That's completely wrong.

Posted by: Apostate at November 24, 2015 02:32 PM (pqigf)

285 In my opinion, the real cause of WWI was the buffoons. Kaiser Wilhelm II was a loud mouth buffoon, Czar Nicholas II was a quiet buffoon, and, to a lesser extent, Kaiser Franz Joseph was an elderly buffoon. The difference between then and now is that those countries inherited their buffoons. We elected ours.

Posted by: The Great White Snark at November 24, 2015 02:32 PM (pItB9)

286 Posted by: Stringer Davis at November 24, 2015 02:31 PM (xq1UY)

The Arabian-American Oil Company was British?

Posted by: Harry Paratestes at November 24, 2015 02:33 PM (AkOaV)

287 I actually think he's less interested in middle eastern oil control as he is in making the whole place so unstable its a weaker competitor. The oil he's interested in is under the Black Sea.

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at November 24, 2015 02:33 PM (39g3+)

288 228

Ace wrote, "Not to upset anyone, and not to be alarmist, but when
Archduke Ferdinand was assassinated in Sarajevo, no one predicted the
chain reactions that would ensue and spark off a world war."

Read
Barbara Tuchman's book, 'The Guns Of August'. One of her premises is
that Europe had become such a tinderbox any random spark could set it
off. If it hadn't been the shooting of the Archduke by a fucked-up Serb,
it would've been something else equally seemingly insignificant and
picayune.

I'm paraphrasing, of course. Barbara Tuchmanwouldn't use'fucked-up' in a sentence.

Posted by: troyriser at November 24, 2015 02:23 PM (cCEFD)

_______________________________________________
In a rebuke to Tuchman, David Fromkin's "Europe's Last Summer", which has information Tuchman did not use at the time she was writitng "The Guns of August", posits that the Germans planned to use any provocation to get the party started at a time of their choosing.

Posted by: CozMark at November 24, 2015 02:33 PM (CbGSW)

289 You're still an asshole for lying and claiming that observations are "doomsday predictions".

Go collect your pineapple mini-moo.
Posted by: Blue Hen at November 24, 2015 02:31 PM (326rv)

___________

People are talking about world wars between Russia and the US. In my book that qualifies as doomdsay. Which is why it's so ridiculous.

Posted by: Monsieur Mew Mew at November 24, 2015 02:33 PM (0LHZx)

290 Just to make sure I understand the value of oil and gas, I have decided to push my car the 15 miles from work to home this afternoon.

Posted by: Weasel at November 24, 2015 02:33 PM (6xtq3)

291 "Hey, I'm trying to eat my waffles here, okay?"

-- Leader of the Free World

Posted by: GuyfromNH at November 24, 2015 02:33 PM (aRAhg)

292 270 BREAKING: Roubaix: Several wounded as hostages taken in French town.


All the European countries experiencing Islamic terrorist attacks brought this on themselves. There was no reason on earth for them to import these people. They have guaranteed their own destruction.

Posted by: despair at November 24, 2015 02:33 PM (VrdxH)

293 You do realize Russia has been invading neighbors for oh, 500 or so years? No it's not over, it will never be over. It's also why panicking over something as routine as that is silly.

Posted by: Monsieur Mew Mew at November 24, 2015 02:32 PM (0LHZx)


Its because they didn't have nukes 500 years ago.

Posted by: Jollyroger at November 24, 2015 02:34 PM (t06LC)

294 Shooting the pilots is inexcusable.

===

Its the middle east. Fred Flintstone wastelands and the Black Speech. There's no excuse for any of em.

Posted by: Bigby's Chicken Fingers at November 24, 2015 02:34 PM (3ZtZW)

295 273 I inadvertently tuned in the Glenn Beck show on Sirius for a moment this morning and he was making the exact same Archduke of Sarajevo analogy.

Posted by: peacelovewoodstock at November 24, 2015 02:30 PM (X+HRW)

________

And then he tried to sell you some gold, right? Or maybe some golf and food storage? LOL.

When your thought process is in line with Glenn Beck....you need to rethink your thought process.

Posted by: Monsieur Mew Mew at November 24, 2015 02:35 PM (0LHZx)

296 Don't sweat it...Obama's got this.

Posted by: rc at November 24, 2015 02:35 PM (J4ZHs)

297 So anyone familiar with that hypothesis about if "x" happens--China's economy collapses in about a week.

Ya, that. Maybe the timeline has changed.

At some point even China gets "interested".

I'm off.

Posted by: Danube River Guide at November 24, 2015 02:35 PM (mcm0N)

298 It's also why panicking over something as routine as that is silly.
Posted by: Monsieur Mew Mew

Nations shooting the shit out of each other isn't routine. It's normally an act of war.

And no one said anything about anything "being over".

Russia is being expansionistic again. And that entire region is already 2/3 fucked. And they have bases and influence that they haven't had since the 1970s.

Posted by: Blue Hen at November 24, 2015 02:36 PM (326rv)

299
I hope Putin uses a goat as a condom when he fucks Erdogan.

Posted by: Cloyd Freud, Unemployed at November 24, 2015 02:24 PM (u5gzz)








Personally I'd recommend cougar, but whatever floats your boat, Vlad.

Posted by: Dick Cheney at November 24, 2015 02:36 PM (gwpf+)

300 Our leadership thinks they have the golden algorithm and that they can surf every bubble and game every crisis. And thus far they've been right. The dollar should have come back down to earth years ago. Now they think they can take their best practices and apply them to foreign policy.

Russia acting up? Crash oil. The military is obsolete maaaaan.

Let's hope they have a very, very good way of accounting for macro forces not represented in their dataset.

As for the micro data? What do you think we were doing in Iraq and Afghanistan all that time?
http://bit.ly/1NbHyhl

Not to upset anyone, and not to be alarmist, but you better hope there are some good guys in our shadow government or our kids are going to be watching FLIR footage of 30mm strikes on "radical right wing separatists" on American soil someday.

Have a good Thanksgiving.

Posted by: Ghost of kari at November 24, 2015 02:36 PM (xuouz)

301 281 Shooting the pilots is inexcusable.
Posted by: Dack Thrombosis at November 24, 2015 02:31 PM (4ErVI)


--------------


Just putting things into perspective here. Given the choice, I'm sure the pilots would rather be shot than burned in a cage.

Posted by: Soona at November 24, 2015 02:36 PM (Fmupd)

302 Just to make sure I understand the value of oil and gas, I have decided to push my car the 15 miles from work to home this afternoon.

Posted by: Weasel at November 24, 2015 02:33 PM (6xtq3)

You guys wouldn't believe how much time, money, and effort go into getting it out of the ground and into your cars. I can tell you, we don't sit around with $100 cigars and private jets either.
Sure, you can do really good in oil and gas, but even with new tech, I'd say about only 3 out of 10 conventional wells hit.

Posted by: Jollyroger at November 24, 2015 02:36 PM (t06LC)

303 If IS was run by smart guys instead of murderous frat boy rapists, they'd cut out these terror attacks around Summer 2016 and let things go quiet. If voters are afraid of international instability and security, they'll lean GOP, which will not be as fixated on global warming and being nice to our enemies.

But I gotta say: we really dodged a bullet with McCain. He'd have had us nuts deep in blood by now, raining nukes all over the world. The guy is a demented warmonger.

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at November 24, 2015 02:37 PM (39g3+)

304 @261 To be less anti-CIA about it, the democratically elected leader they ousted was problematic at best, and a likely Soviet stooge. Best part, the whole thing was run by just two master-mind superspies on the ground. Kermit Roosevelt and Norman Schwarzkopf Sr.

What a frickin spy movie "Kermit and Norm" would make.

Posted by: Stringer Davis at November 24, 2015 02:37 PM (xq1UY)

305
People are talking about world wars between Russia and the US. In my book that qualifies as doomdsay. Which is why it's so ridiculous.
Posted by: Monsieur Mew Mew

Most here don't believe that Russia and the US will fight. Most believe that NATO will abrogate its obligations.

it will likely expand, and the tempo increase. And US/NATO influence will wane further.

And no one here gives a shit about your comic book. You and your strawmen are boring.

Posted by: Blue Hen at November 24, 2015 02:39 PM (326rv)

306 Thought question from the previous post.

If the Allies didn't have access to chemical weapons but the Nazi's did, would the Nazi's have used them?

My answer is yes.

Posted by: Make America Great Again at November 24, 2015 02:39 PM (LXJ1e)

307 Gaylord's bubblegum world is popping. And taking the rest of us with the explosion.

Posted by: Anna Puma at November 24, 2015 02:39 PM (7MJMR)

308 Thank God, Obama cannot be reelected and is down to about a year.

Posted by: dogfish at November 24, 2015 02:39 PM (0O2Lr)

309 303 If IS was run by smart guys instead of murderous frat boy rapists, they'd cut out these terror attacks around Summer 2016 and let things go quiet. If voters are afraid of international instability and security, they'll lean GOP, which will not be as fixated on global warming and being nice to our enemies.

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at November 24, 2015 02:37 PM (39g3+)

....?

They don't give a shit what you or I think, or what Obama says. They're on a holy mission from god.

And part of that holy mission is to get the army of rome to fight them at Dabiq.

Posted by: Harry Paratestes at November 24, 2015 02:40 PM (AkOaV)

310 Mew Mew you squish, this is a political commentary blog, people are going to talk about the plane being shot down and it's hardly unwarranted to speculate whether two countries engaging in air combat could spark a conflict.

Posted by: Ghost of kari at November 24, 2015 02:40 PM (xuouz)

311 ARAMCO British, not US.

"So that the corn and oil of Mesopotamia might be ours." --Lawrence.


Posted by: Stringer Davis at November 24, 2015 02:31 PM (xq1UY)

Arabian American oil company

Posted by: Velvet Ambition at November 24, 2015 02:40 PM (QPdNE)

312 Hope and change, bitches.

Posted by: maddogg at November 24, 2015 02:40 PM (xWW96)

313 CozMark,

Yeah, 4th ID was supposed to enter Iraq through Turkey.

All our assets were floating around in the Med, while we were sitting here in empty motorpools waiting to go. For two months.

So I really don't give a shit about Turkey...or Russia for that matter.

Posted by: SMFH at November 24, 2015 02:40 PM (zyIlW)

314 "And then he tried to sell you some gold, right? Or maybe some golf and food storage? LOL.

When your thought process is in line with Glenn Beck....you need to rethink your thought process."


In fairness, most of those guys sell gold (and Lifelock). They know the audience. And now I turn Levin off when he starts talking about his Dad's book.

Posted by: Benji Carver at November 24, 2015 02:40 PM (OD2ni)

315
All of the sunni rebels fighting Assad are of the same ideological bend, Russia has just been bombing from "friendly territory" out, so they've killed a lot of OUR sunni jihadists, which annoyed Obama. 

The Russians have also destroyed a lot of ISIS tankers which have been going back and forth to Turkey delivering ISIS oil for big money for years now without a problem. That also annoyed Obama. 

Posted by: Harry Paratestes at November 24, 2015 01:58 PM (AkOaV)

I hope barky is annoyed, I hope barky's ears ring, I hope barky gets his putter stuck up his ass, fuck barky.

Posted by: Killerdog at November 24, 2015 02:40 PM (bW1bg)

316
But I gotta say: we really dodged a bullet with
McCain. He'd have had us nuts deep in blood by now, raining nukes all
over the world. The guy is a demented warmonger.

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at November 24, 2015 02:37 PM (39g3+)

______________________________________________
Before he was a Senator he was the Navy Attache to Congress. So to McCain a lot of problems (nails) can be solved with the US military (the big hammer). He's still the Pentagon's main lobbyist.

Posted by: CozMark at November 24, 2015 02:40 PM (CbGSW)

317 They don't give a shit what you or I think, or what Obama says. They're on a holy mission from god.

Correct, but in terms of long term strategy, they'd be wiser to help a Democrat get elected in the USA, for wiggle room and hands-off US policy.

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at November 24, 2015 02:40 PM (39g3+)

318 I am fairly certain climate change is what caused this Russian plane to fall from the sky.

Posted by: Mallamutt, RINO President for Life at November 24, 2015 02:40 PM (tPxcP)

319 I can understand shooting the jet down, but opening up on the pilots while in their parachutes?
AND downing the rescue helicopter?
This will end poorly.

Posted by: navybrat at November 24, 2015 02:41 PM (Xodlv)

320 SMFH!!

Got 12 or 13 pages of script written last night.

Posted by: Anna Puma at November 24, 2015 02:41 PM (7MJMR)

321 Thank God, Obama cannot be reelected and is down to about a year.

It's going to be a very long year.

Posted by: Blanco Basura at November 24, 2015 02:42 PM (YEelc)

322 Russia is being expansionistic again. And that entire region is already 2/3 fucked. And they have bases and influence that they haven't had since the 1970s.
Posted by: Blue Hen at November 24, 2015 02:36 PM (326rv)

__________

Russia has always been expansionistic (is that even a word). That's my point. It's what they always do. And yet Americans fall into this panic mode every time they do it.

Posted by: Monsieur Mew Mew at November 24, 2015 02:42 PM (0LHZx)

323 Good for you, Anna!

Just started my new class on Tragedy and Comedy, which considering the state of the world, is more than apt.

Posted by: SMFH at November 24, 2015 02:42 PM (zyIlW)

324 In a rebuke to Tuchman, David Fromkin's "Europe's Last Summer",

-
I have read both those books and liked them both. Tuchman's biggest failure was to not include enough info on the Austro-Hungarian Empire.

Posted by: The Great White Snark at November 24, 2015 02:42 PM (pItB9)

325 The thing that turns situations like this into world wars is a lack of active mature leadership to keep it from escalating.

Hence, the reason people worry about a world war these days.

Posted by: BurtTC at November 24, 2015 02:43 PM (X83iY)

326 Destabilized countries? Yah! More business deals for us.

Posted by: Sidney Blumenthal & Clinton Slush Fund Inc. at November 24, 2015 02:43 PM (recCK)

327 Remember those two airhead teenage girls from Austria, who were from Bosnian Serb families originally given citizenship in Austria as "refugees", who ran away to join the Islamic State?

They then decided it wasn't to their taste and started texting their families about how they wanted to come home. Did we say we wanted to be mujihideen war brides? No, no, we want to go to cosmetology school! Sensibly, the Austrian government said, "Nein," or however it is you say it in Austrian.

Anyway, one of the two silly bints tried to escape recently, and for her troubles, the jihadis beat her to death.

http://tinyurl.com/n9b8c2o

Posted by: torquewrench at November 24, 2015 02:43 PM (noWW6)

328 Correct, but in terms of long term strategy, they'd be wiser to help a Democrat get elected in the USA, for wiggle room and hands-off US policy.
Posted by: Christopher Taylor at November 24, 2015 02:40 PM (39g3+)

They do not exist as a reaction to US domestic politics.

That seems to be a big misconception here among a lot of people. That mujahideen exist because of America.

Most members of ISIS probably have no idea how our system of government works, nor do they care.

They're doing their own thing, regardless of what we do.

Posted by: Harry Paratestes at November 24, 2015 02:43 PM (AkOaV)

329 >>>>I'm confused.

We want to oust Assad.

ISIS wants to oust Assad.

So we're only pretending to bomb ISIS, because we're on the same side, right?

Russia is on the side of Assad, so they're bombing ISIS.

And ISIS is killing westerners.

Turkey, our ally (I think) is on the side of ISIS, so they downed a Russian plane.

Is that kind of right?
.
.
.For anyone trying to figure out the Politics of this mess I suggest you watch the 1960s movie Lawrence of Arabia. That movie explains how Arab politics work to a "T".

Doesn't make any sense usually, and the players constantly changes sides and sometimes up and leave when they get what they want short term, but the movie handles it all brilliantly.

Posted by: The Great White Scotsman at November 24, 2015 02:43 PM (iONHu)

330 >>To be less anti-CIA about it, the democratically elected leader they ousted was problematic at best, and a likely Soviet stooge. Best part, the whole thing was run by just two master-mind superspies on the ground. Kermit Roosevelt and Norman Schwarzkopf Sr.

I'm not anti-CIA. They are just a tool, it wasn't their idea to take out Mossadeq, they were just the guys appointed to make it happen. I don't think Mo had much of a leg to stand on and his nationalizing of the oil was a big mistake. Bust a Deal/Spin the Wheel and all that.

But the fact is we and the Russians/Soviets have been going back and forth over Iran for decades. And the major reason for the Death to America shit is because of our involvement in replacing their popular leader.

It would be great if we would deal with these assclowns once and for all but I don't see that happening anytime soon and I do see Putin taking advantage of Obama's weakness and becoming Iran's number one sponsor.

Posted by: JackStraw at November 24, 2015 02:43 PM (/tuJf)

331 Anna, you using Celtx?

Posted by: SMFH at November 24, 2015 02:43 PM (zyIlW)

332 54
WW I never ended.

All this goes back to Cain-Abel I. Mathematical analysis with geometric precision says it's hard wired into the human experience. Get used to it.
Best we can hope for is "never get involved in a land war in Asia."

Hmmm. Think it's time for another dose of iocane porter.


Posted by: Man from Wazzustan at November 24, 2015 02:43 PM (ccNyn)

333 Just started my new class on Tragedy and Comedy, which considering the state of the world, is more than apt.

===

Tragedy and Comedy follow on a bit after the Four Horsemen. I think Comedy's horse is violet.

Posted by: Bigby's Chicken Fingers at November 24, 2015 02:44 PM (3ZtZW)

334 Well SMFH, good that I'm writing. But I should be writing novel and not screenplay. But this idea is kinda neat.

Posted by: Anna Puma at November 24, 2015 02:44 PM (7MJMR)

335 This business will get out of control! It will get out of control and we'll be lucky to live through it!

Posted by: Zombie Adm Josh Painter at November 24, 2015 02:44 PM (UhRGU)

336 310 Mew Mew you squish, this is a political commentary blog, people are going to talk about the plane being shot down and it's hardly unwarranted to speculate whether two countries engaging in air combat could spark a conflict.
Posted by: Ghost of kari at November 24, 2015 02:40 PM (xuouz)


-------------------


All Moo is worried about is how the price of oil is affecting HIM.

Posted by: Soona at November 24, 2015 02:44 PM (Fmupd)

337 Just started my new class on Tragedy and Comedy, which considering the state of the world, is more than apt.

-
We're on the brink of WWIII but the real problem is global warming.

Posted by: The Great White Snark at November 24, 2015 02:44 PM (pItB9)

338 Yes, Celtx.

Posted by: Anna Puma at November 24, 2015 02:44 PM (7MJMR)

339 I hope it turns out great, Anna.

Posted by: SMFH at November 24, 2015 02:45 PM (zyIlW)

340 They do not exist as a reaction to US domestic politics.

...Am i typing in Swahili or something?

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at November 24, 2015 02:45 PM (39g3+)

341 But I gotta say: we really dodged a bullet with McCain. He'd have had us nuts deep in blood by now, raining nukes all over the world. The guy is a demented warmonger.Posted by: Christopher Taylor at November 24, 2015 02:37 PM (39g3+)

Yessirreebob, thank goodness we've got Barack Obama, that bastion of stalwart courage and quiet moralauthority,as Commander-in-Chief.

Good grief, Taylor. I'm not a McCain fan but damn. Get a grip.

Posted by: troyriser at November 24, 2015 02:45 PM (cCEFD)

342 Can anyone explain Barky's boner about getting rid of Assahd? Yes, he is a brutual dictator....as is a whole lotta other rulers (including the mullahs of Itan). Is this just a case of "he ain't got nukes so I can be a bully"?

Posted by: Mallamutt, RINO President for Life at November 24, 2015 02:45 PM (tPxcP)

343
I'm sure some nerd had game theoried the shit out of this scenario long ago. I wonder how it came out.

Posted by: Max Rockatansky at November 24, 2015 02:30 PM (FCAbp)









Fuck. I HATE being right about shit all the time. Red Storm Rising was FICTION, you assholes.

Posted by: Zombie Tom Clancy at November 24, 2015 02:45 PM (gwpf+)

344 We have been flying over Russian airspace since the 60's, if not before. They seem to have more restraint then we do.

Posted by: Big Ben at November 24, 2015 02:45 PM (mHmjO)

345 In the world of Comedy. - Gaylord is Punch and Putin is Judy.

Thanks SMFH.

Posted by: Anna Puma at November 24, 2015 02:46 PM (7MJMR)

346 All Moo is worried about is how the price of oil is affecting HIM.
Posted by: Soona at November 24, 2015 02:44 PM (Fmupd)

_________

Indirectly, yeah. I'm long oil so today was a good day in that aspect. Every time Putin farts oil goes up 3%.

Posted by: Monsieur Mew Mew at November 24, 2015 02:46 PM (0LHZx)

347 ...Am i typing in Swahili or something?
Posted by: Christopher Taylor at November 24, 2015 02:45 PM (39g3+)

No, but if you are going to type in a lingua franca, I'd prefer it be English over Swahili.

Posted by: Harry Paratestes at November 24, 2015 02:46 PM (AkOaV)

348 https://www.facebook.com/usawtfm/videos/10153807818173606/

Beer summit!

Posted by: OK, Thanks, bye at November 24, 2015 02:46 PM (ucB75)

349 Russia has always been expansionistic (is that even a word). That's my point. It's what they always do. And yet Americans fall into this panic mode every time they do it.
Posted by: Monsieur Mew Mew

"it's what they always do"

Bullshit. This is a resurgence of activity that we haven't seen in decades. Is this their desired course of action historically? it would seem so. have they been doing this "always, constantly"? No. They are moving now because of the chaos that exists and the shitty leadership on hand in the West.

And you repeating the words "panic" and doomsday' don't mean shit.

Posted by: Blue Hen at November 24, 2015 02:46 PM (326rv)

350 So Turks are backdooring us into WWIII?

Posted by: Joe Biden at November 24, 2015 02:47 PM (u5gzz)

351 Sept At the UN

Putin said through a translator. "I cannot help asking those who have forced that situation: Do you realize what you have done?"

Posted by: McCool at November 24, 2015 02:47 PM (nCSwS)

352 All you need is some damn fool thing - like some sea captain's ear - and you got a war on your hands.

Posted by: Mikey NTH - Get You Mute Buttons for the Family Gathering at the Outrage Outlet! at November 24, 2015 02:47 PM (hLRSq)

353 Got 12 or 13 pages of script written last night.

Whatcha scripting?

Posted by: ReactionaryMonster at November 24, 2015 02:47 PM (0NdlF)

354 All Moo is worried about is how the price of oil is affecting HIM.

Posted by: Soona at November 24, 2015 02:44 PM (Fmupd)




Oh, c'mon. It can't cost that much to gas up an '84 Celica.

Posted by: Country Singer at November 24, 2015 02:47 PM (8Y7+f)

355 We're on the brink of WWIII but the real problem is global warming.

===

There shoulda been a chapter about that in A Canticle for Leibowitz,

Posted by: Bigby's Chicken Fingers at November 24, 2015 02:47 PM (3ZtZW)

356 We have been flying over Russian airspace since the 60's, if not before. They seem to have more restraint then we do.
Posted by: Big Ben at November 24, 2015 02:45 PM (mHmjO)

Ron Paul much?

Posted by: troyriser at November 24, 2015 02:48 PM (cCEFD)

357 Ace, you've taken the words right out of my mouth. The Archduke has been very much in my thoughts, of late.

We are living in a tinderbox.

Posted by: Missbosslady at November 24, 2015 02:48 PM (K+eoi)

358 what's the Horde's opinion on Christopher Clark's book about the first world war, Sleepwalkers -- it has won multiple awards, the Brits knighted him, etc

Posted by: Feh at November 24, 2015 02:48 PM (fUWsy)

359 Fuck em all to death

Posted by: Ghost of kari


Missed a Mr.(s) Garrison sock - take a lap.

Posted by: DaveA at November 24, 2015 02:49 PM (DL2i+)

360 And you repeating the words "panic" and doomsday' don't mean shit.

I think he can't help leaning back in his chair with a glass of wine and pontificating while staring down his nose at those stupid little people who always get it all wrong, even if he has to make up crap to do it.

basically he's created a false dichotomy between "my perfect understanding" and "terrified panic about doomsday" and is getting straw everywhere.

Only a fool would not see problems and hear drums in the distance with this news. Will it certainly end up world war? No. But they've started for less, and the whole world is on a brittle, fragile edge of the brink.

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at November 24, 2015 02:49 PM (39g3+)

361 As Boney I said, it was worse than a crime; it was a blunder.

Posted by: The Great White Snark at November 24, 2015 02:49 PM (pItB9)

362 Ah-hem. You forgot Larry Bond

Although Larry's name does not appear on the title page, this book is his as much as mine.

Author's Preface. Red Storm Rising. Tom Clancy. G.P. Putnam's Sons. New York. 1986.

Posted by: Anna Puma at November 24, 2015 02:50 PM (7MJMR)

363 can't the Muslims just all get along

Posted by: Lord Kerry at November 24, 2015 02:50 PM (fUWsy)

364 Ron Paul much?
Posted by: troyriser at November 24, 2015 02:48 PM (cCEFD)

Yeah. Boy, has he turned out to be a nut.

Can you believe that he was against us getting involved in the war in Iraq? Said it could destabilize the region?

And that nutso said "don't arm the rebels, they're not moderates".

What a whacko bird.

Posted by: Harry Paratestes at November 24, 2015 02:50 PM (AkOaV)

365 Bullshit. This is a resurgence of activity that we haven't seen in decades. Is this their desired course of action historically? it would seem so. have they been doing this "always, constantly"? No. They are moving now because of the chaos that exists and the shitty leadership on hand in the West.

And you repeating the words "panic" and doomsday' don't mean shit.
Posted by: Blue Hen at November 24, 2015 02:46 PM (326rv)

__________

They invaded Chechnia (1999). They invaded Georgia (200. They invaded Ukraine (2013).

You were saying something about "it's been decades"....

Posted by: Monsieur Mew Mew at November 24, 2015 02:50 PM (0LHZx)

366 I think he can't help leaning back in his chair with a juicebox and pontificating while staring down his nose at those stupid little people who always get it all wrong, even if he has to make up crap to do it.

FIFY.

Posted by: Blue Hen at November 24, 2015 02:50 PM (326rv)

367 "The name, Hussein, as in B. Hussein Obama is ONLY a Sunni name. Not Shia. "

"That's completely wrong."

I stand corrected then.

Posted by: Misfortune & Pestilence at November 24, 2015 02:50 PM (recCK)

368
Atom bomb baby, little atom bomb,
I want her in my wigwam!
She's just the way I want her to be,
A million times hotter than TNT!

Posted by: Mustapha Kunt -- With a Wang! at November 24, 2015 02:51 PM (iQIUe)

369 I have Armenian friends. They haven't forgotten their Holocaust. I'm siding with Russia on this one and on Syria. We have no business trying to destabilize the area further by taking out Assad. Chemical weapons? Remember how the Left didn't give a damn about Saddam using chemical weapons on the Kurds. Assad at least has protected Christians and other minoirities in the area. That.s more than the "rebels" will do.

Posted by: notsothoreau at November 24, 2015 02:51 PM (5HBd1)

370 >>basically he's created a false dichotomy between "my perfect understanding" and "terrified panic about doomsday" and is getting straw everywhere.

I know someone else who makes arguments that way, some people say we must kill everyone, some others say we should do nothing, I say there's a third way.

He's kind of a dick.

Posted by: JackStraw at November 24, 2015 02:52 PM (/tuJf)

371 "...I do see Putin taking advantage of Obama's weakness and becoming Iran's number one sponsor.


Posted by: JackStraw at November 24, 2015 02:43 PM (/tuJf)


I don't think Tehran is too fond of the new Constantinople either.

Posted by: Mikey NTH - Get You Mute Buttons for the Family Gathering at the Outrage Outlet! at November 24, 2015 02:52 PM (hLRSq)

372 Put in had his best chance to break MATO and expand a zone of influence with obummer and he took it

On assad, Christians were protected
now they're extinct

The Bear is acting in its self interest something USA no longer does

Hope MewMew has SDR rights with IMF ready for end of US $ as global reserve currency
When will CIA grasp obummer will not act no matter what happens

Posted by: ginaswo at November 24, 2015 02:52 PM (qxNrP)

373 Fox is headlining a new terror attack in France. No details.

Posted by: maddogg at November 24, 2015 02:52 PM (xWW96)

374 357 Ace, you've taken the words right out of my mouth. The Archduke has been very much in my thoughts, of late.

We are living in a tinderbox.
Posted by: Missbosslady at November 24, 2015 02:48 PM (K+eoi)

________

So this is NOT doomsday talk? Just checking.

Posted by: Monsieur Mew Mew at November 24, 2015 02:52 PM (0LHZx)

375 Thems the breaks. You fly outdated, shitty jets, while intentionally skirting the Turkish border, you might get shot down. I don't care about Russian pilots. I hope Syria becomes a disaster for Putin.

And all of you fucktards who think Putin is "defending Christian civilization from barbarians": he's launched two wars against Christian nations (Ukraine and Georgia).

Posted by: Naes at November 24, 2015 02:53 PM (Ypc8j)

376 Shooting pilots in the process of parachuting from wreckage is against the 1949 Geneva Convention. Not just unchivalrous, it's a war crime.

Posted by: FredB at November 24, 2015 02:53 PM (mkgf1)

377 I remember those days when I got all the attention.

Good times.

Posted by: Gulf of Tonkin at November 24, 2015 02:53 PM (3myMJ)

378 For more Tuchman on the background in Austria-Hungary, you go to her "Proud Tower." And sacred honour requires...

ARAMCO, Arab American Oil Company, headquarters London. Used to have their cable address around here, somewhere. Still have the shovel. And the hat.
I'd call it a "shell corporation," but that would just further confuse matters, no?

Posted by: Stringer Davis at November 24, 2015 02:53 PM (xq1UY)

379 364 -

Good grief, did I stumble into kos? You're going to blame Bush for this? Have you not been here for the past 6 plus years??

Posted by: BurtTC at November 24, 2015 02:53 PM (X83iY)

380 358
what's the Horde's opinion on Christopher Clark's book about the first
world war, Sleepwalkers -- it has won multiple awards, the Brits
knighted him, etc

Posted by: Feh at November 24, 2015 02:48 PM (fUWsy)

______________________________________
I haven't read it but if his position is that WWI was just a giant whoopsie daisy then I would highly recommend you read Fromkin's "Europe's Last Summer". Germany wanted that war, they planned extensively for it, it was completely premeditated.

Posted by: CozMark at November 24, 2015 02:54 PM (CbGSW)

381 why didn't Obama enforce no-fly's against Assad when he had the chance? what was the deal between him and the mollahs in Iran?

Posted by: Feh at November 24, 2015 02:54 PM (fUWsy)

382 The rescue copter was shot down with a US supplied TOW missile.

Posted by: navybrat at November 24, 2015 02:54 PM (Xodlv)

383 And all of you fucktards who think Putin is "defending Christian civilization from barbarians": he's launched two wars against Christian nations (Ukraine and Georgia).
Posted by: Naes at November 24, 2015 02:53 PM (Ypc8j)

I have not heard a single person make THAT argument, but ... noted I guess?

Posted by: Harry Paratestes at November 24, 2015 02:54 PM (AkOaV)

384 Alright I ran the laps you bitch, now look how tired Mr Hat is!

Posted by: Mr Garrison at November 24, 2015 02:54 PM (xuouz)

385 And for our theme song:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qfZVu0alU0I

Posted by: The Great White Snark at November 24, 2015 02:54 PM (pItB9)

386 We have been flying over Russian airspace since the 60's, if not before. They seem to have more restraint then we do.

Francis Gary Powers U2 shot down over Mother Russia, so by 'restraint' you mean Russian military aircraft don't overfly US territory? Like the civilian aircraft KAL007.

(There were other US aircraft shot down in the fifties due to weather and bad navigation.)

Posted by: THDeering at November 24, 2015 02:55 PM (Ymx+z)

387 We have been flying over Russian airspace since the 60's, if not before. They seem to have more restraint then we do.


Posted by: Big Ben at November 24, 2015 02:45 PM (mHmjO)


The late Francis Powers would like to discuss your definition of "restraint".

Posted by: Mikey NTH - Get You Mute Buttons for the Family Gathering at the Outrage Outlet! at November 24, 2015 02:55 PM (hLRSq)

388 Ah-hem. You forgot Larry Bond ...

James' brother?!?

Posted by: Adriane the Historical Critic ... at November 24, 2015 02:55 PM (jnAIZ)

389 382 The rescue copter was shot down with a US supplied TOW missile.
Posted by: navybrat at November 24, 2015 02:54 PM (Xodlv)

As I was saying yesterday, the phrase "tow the line" comes from an old Turkmen phrase about aiming your TOW in a straight line when trying to shoot down rescue choppers.

Posted by: Harry Paratestes at November 24, 2015 02:55 PM (AkOaV)

390 Germany wanted that war, they planned extensively for it, it was completely premeditated.

For them, the previous war under Bismark was still going, there was just a pause for a few years.

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at November 24, 2015 02:55 PM (39g3+)

391 Loved "Proud Tower". Used to admire "Guns of August" but then read Fromkin's version of events and lost some respect for Tuchman.

Posted by: CozMark at November 24, 2015 02:56 PM (CbGSW)

392 There has always been three cities where Caliphates rise - Baghdad, Cairo, and Damascus. With Tehran feeling the Odd Jihad Out on the matter.

Baghdad due to lack of US leadership and Iranian meddling is not a possible Caliphate but could be if situation worsens.

Damascus, due to US/Western interference and Iranian meddling, could become another Caliphate.

Cairo has avoided this fate only because the Egyptian military crushed Morsi in spite of US interference.

Notice any patterns?

Posted by: Anna Puma at November 24, 2015 02:56 PM (7MJMR)

393 Fox is headlining a new terror attack in France. No details.

Posted by: maddogg


Hostages being held in Roubaix.

Posted by: weft cut-loop at November 24, 2015 02:56 PM (9YDUz)

394 You were saying something about "it's been decades"....
Posted by: Monsieur Mew Mew

Ah mini-moo.

They were ousted from the Mid East in the 1970s. THeir last incursion prior to that was Afghanistan in 1979. After that, they cut back aid to Cuba, Vietnam, movements in Africa, watched the Baltic republics go, and then the rest of the Warsaw Pact and most of the "republics" that comprised the USSR.

yeah decades.

They went into neighboring Chechnya, and seized part of Georgia . The Ukraine was two years ago dumbass.

And now they are projecting power in the Middle East again, with bases, direct air missions (new) ground troops (new) are again talking to Egypt and are supplying Iran (which they weren't before).

This is activity we haven't seen from them in decades, and some activity which we've never seen before.

Posted by: Blue Hen at November 24, 2015 02:57 PM (326rv)

395
all of you fucktards who think
Posted by: Naes




Never seems to actually happen, but:

"New Banning Policy: Stop with the Personal Attacks Based on Nothing More Than Disagreement With Someone's Position, or Your Ass Will be Permanently Banned"

One would think calling people "fucktards" might at least invoke a yellow card.

Posted by: Laurie David's Cervix at November 24, 2015 02:57 PM (kdS6q)

396 The rescue copter was shot down with a US supplied TOW missile.

-
Can't be. We did all the good tow jokes yesterday.

Posted by: The Great White Snark at November 24, 2015 02:57 PM (pItB9)

397 Posted by: Harry Paratestes at November 24, 2015 02:50 PM (AkOaV)

The invasion of Iraq actually stabilized the region until Obama screwed it up.

Posted by: Max Rockatansky at November 24, 2015 02:58 PM (FCAbp)

398 Re Obama's sect, I don't think a Sunni would give Iran the bomb.

Posted by: Meremortal at November 24, 2015 02:58 PM (3myMJ)

399 Guys who measure their dick by the DJIA chart are supposed to just love doomsday talk. When do you buy? You Buy When There's Blood in The Street. How does blood get in the street? Doomsday Talk.

1949 Geneva accords. I don't see ISIS or the Turkmen Brigade's signatures on there anyplace. Guess this one will have to go to The Hague. That'll teach 'em.

World War One had nothing to do with pissants in the Balkans. It was over Schleswig and Holstein. Hell everybody used to know that.

Posted by: Stringer Davis at November 24, 2015 02:58 PM (xq1UY)

400 Germany wanted that war, they planned extensively for it, it was completely premeditated.


Europe's major past time is killing each other. Of course they have plans for how to and invade and kill each other.

Point to me the European nation that did not plan for war with its neighbors from that time period.

Posted by: ReactionaryMonster at November 24, 2015 02:58 PM (0NdlF)

401 Notice any patterns?

The cities all start with letters on a music scale?!?

Posted by: Adriane the Helpful Critic ... at November 24, 2015 02:58 PM (jnAIZ)

402 Breaking news, Putin has sent Obama to his room:
http://9gag.com/gag/aZNOOXX

Posted by: peacelovewoodstock at November 24, 2015 02:59 PM (X+HRW)

403 Posted by: Anna Puma at November 24, 2015 02:56 PM (7MJMR)

Baghdad + suburbs are Shia majority with a heavy Sunni minority.
Cairo is Sunni
Damascus is a mix, with a Sunni majority and a Shia (alawites) minority

...?

Posted by: Harry Paratestes at November 24, 2015 02:59 PM (AkOaV)

404 Did this account ion cross a red line?

Posted by: Mallamutt, RINO President for Life at November 24, 2015 02:59 PM (tPxcP)

405 One would think calling people "fucktards" might at least invoke a yellow card.
Posted by: Laurie David's Cervix at November 24, 2015 02:57 PM (kdS6q)

Shut up slutbag!

Posted by: Some fucktard at November 24, 2015 02:59 PM (xuouz)

406 395 - or a rebuke.

Posted by: Weasel at November 24, 2015 02:59 PM (6xtq3)

407 Well... before I get glazed by Adriane again... back to the writing.

Posted by: Anna Puma at November 24, 2015 02:59 PM (7MJMR)

408
Blind Morons of AoShq

Everybody's worried about that atom bomb
No one seems worried about the day my Lord shall come
Set your house in order he may be coming soon
Hit like an atom bomb, when he comes, when he comes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DS_pGnRDuuk

Posted by: Mustapha Kunt -- With a Wang! at November 24, 2015 02:59 PM (iQIUe)

409 >>I don't think Tehran is too fond of the new Constantinople either.

Nope. But you know who they do like? Syria and it's lovely sea ports on the Med.

Just a note, in August Russia began work on a 680 mile, $2.5 billion pipeline from the Iranian fields to Pakistan.

If you don't think Russia lusts after Iran's oil and gas you aren't paying attention.

Posted by: JackStraw at November 24, 2015 03:00 PM (/tuJf)

410 Point to me the European nation that did not plan for war with its neighbors from that time period.

Switzerland. They were planning how to make better hot cocoa and score with the milkmaid

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at November 24, 2015 03:00 PM (39g3+)

411 Never seems to actually happen, but:

"New Banning Policy: Stop with the Personal Attacks Based on Nothing More Than Disagreement With Someone's Position, or Your Ass Will be Permanently Banned"

One would think calling people "fucktards" might at least invoke a yellow card.
Posted by: Laurie David's Cervix a

We need a ruling on the field.

I think that mini-moo is a dumbass.

All opposed, please indicate with a show of hands.

Posted by: Blue Hen at November 24, 2015 03:00 PM (326rv)

412 @"Posted by: Naes at November 24, 2015 02:53 PM (Ypc8j)"

But he did not fly planes into our building on 9-11, and other various Jihadist attacks against infidels. Remember those "oppressed" Chechens who "evil" Russia had tried to arrest...well they came to America and rewarded us by bombing the Boston Marathon.

How has the Sunni Islamic world repaid us for saving their Muslim brothers in Afghanistan, Bosnia, etc?

Not very well...

Posted by: William Eaton at November 24, 2015 03:00 PM (q52Ma)

413 398 Re Obama's sect, I don't think a Sunni would give Iran the bomb.

Posted by: Meremortal at November 24, 2015 02:58 PM (3myMJ)

He's Sunni. His dad was from Kenya and is step dad was from Indonesia. Where would Shia play in to it?

(tinfoil hat on:... unlesss.. Valerie Jarret? Hmm...)

Posted by: Harry Paratestes at November 24, 2015 03:00 PM (AkOaV)

414 For more Tuchman on the background in Austria-Hungary, you go to her "Proud Tower." And sacred honour requires...

-
I liked that, too. Especially the chapter about the a anarchists.

Posted by: The Great White Snark at November 24, 2015 03:01 PM (pItB9)

415 One would think calling people "fucktards" might at least invoke a yellow card.



Not enough rolling around on the ground, knashing of teeth, wailing, and knee clasping for a yellow card.

Posted by: rickb223 at November 24, 2015 03:01 PM (hQt/L)

416 395
1) I didn't call anyone out by name.
2) Don't praise a kleptocratic thug and I won't call you (not you, specifically) a fucktard.
3) I've read plenty of comments in the last few months both here and at American Thinker praising Putin. AT even did a pathetic article about his defense of the faith.

Posted by: Naes at November 24, 2015 03:01 PM (Ypc8j)

417 I have always been under the impression the Swiss were ALWAYS ready for war. So war leaves them alone.

Posted by: maddogg at November 24, 2015 03:02 PM (xWW96)

418 50


Gee, Vlad, remember KAL Flight 007?

the last transmission recorded about that one said:

"Natasha, after we splash this 747, we go after moose and squirrel!"

Posted by: WaldoTJ at November 24, 2015 03:02 PM (M1MpJ)

419 The invasion of Iraq actually stabilized the region until Obama screwed it up.
Posted by: Max Rockatansky at November 24, 2015 02:58 PM (FCAbp)

::blinks::

Posted by: Harry Paratestes at November 24, 2015 03:02 PM (AkOaV)

420 The invasion of Iraq actually stabilized the region until Obama screwed it up

Yeah I gave up hope trying to get people to remember 10 years ago, like it was ancient history or something. When some get an idea in their heads, they just stop thinking and won't listen to facts, reason, or history.

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at November 24, 2015 03:02 PM (39g3+)

421 "Notice any patterns?"

Yeah, they are all major population centers. They have been for centuries centers of learning, culture, and trade. The sorts of places where you expect to find empires rising, with the same sort of traits Rome and Paris and London had when they rose as centers of their empires.

Posted by: Mikey NTH - Get You Mute Buttons for the Family Gathering at the Outrage Outlet! at November 24, 2015 03:02 PM (hLRSq)

422 Did this account ion cross a red line?

-
Obozo doesn't draw red lines, only pink ones.

Posted by: The Great White Snark at November 24, 2015 03:03 PM (pItB9)

423 OK I'll bite
I think putin is advancing his interests

I think putin will defend his people

I like that in a leader

I'd like that in my 'leader'

Posted by: ginaswo at November 24, 2015 03:03 PM (qxNrP)

424 What a whacko bird.Posted by: Harry Paratestes at November 24, 2015 02:50 PM (AkOaV)

Anything remotely sane coming out of that crazy-vicious piece of shit is purely random and accidental. The elder Paul'sportrayal of Iran as victim of *cough* Zionist *cough* machinations is some priceless stuff, to be sure.

I especially like Ron Paul's prominent--even starring--role inAlex Jones'classic film, 'Endgame', which posits that an Illuminati, Bilderburger and Jewish Banking cabalare working together,even now plotting to take over ze world and reduce humanity to slavery and such. That bit about spider-goat DNA hybridization experiments is riveting.

So yeah: Ron Paul is indeed a whacko bird and the single greatest reason why libertarians and libertarian ideas are considered fringey and absurd, dismissed out of hand.

Posted by: troyriser at November 24, 2015 03:03 PM (cCEFD)

425 Switzerland. They were planning how to make better hot cocoa and score with the milkmaid

I'm including the existence of a military as war planning:

"Following the organisation of the army in 1907 and military expansion in 1911, the Swiss Army consisted of about 250,000 men with an additional 200,000 in supporting roles.[2] Both European alliance-systems took the size of the Swiss military into account in the years prior to 1914, especially in the Schlieffen Plan."

Posted by: ReactionaryMonster at November 24, 2015 03:03 PM (0NdlF)

426 Posted by: Anna Puma at November 24, 2015 02:59 PM (7MJMR)

uuuuummmmm! Donuts!

Posted by: Homer Simpson ... at November 24, 2015 03:04 PM (jnAIZ)

427 Not to upset anyone, and not to be alarmist, but smug assholes who think their data driven academic approach to divining financial markets is applicable to all other fields are the reason we're in this fucking mess in the middle east in the first goddamn place.

Posted by: Ghost of kari at November 24, 2015 03:04 PM (xuouz)

428 World War One had nothing to do with pissants in the Balkans. It was over Schleswig and Holstein. Hell everybody used to know that.

I think you meant Alsace and Lorraine.

Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at November 24, 2015 03:04 PM (659DL)

429 The invasion of Iraq actually stabilized the region until Obama screwed it up.

Posted by: Max Rockatansky


the electorate gave up in less than five years. Wholey foreseeable yet Bush plowed ahead.

At some point we have to be honest and reflective on Iraq. It was justified but it was a mistake. There was no appreciable threat from Iraq.

If we can't be honest in that matter, we have no business portraying ourselves as *the* responsible ones with the edge on foreign policy and military affairs.

Posted by: weft cut-loop at November 24, 2015 03:04 PM (9YDUz)

430 alawites

just read the wiki (so sue me) -- what a frickin mess

"There are six things that the Lord hates, seven that are an abomination to him: haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, a heart that devises wicked plans, feet that make haste to run to evil, a false witness who breathes out lies, and one who sows discord among brothers."

Proverbs

Posted by: Feh at November 24, 2015 03:04 PM (fUWsy)

431 One would think calling people "fucktards" might at least invoke a yellow card.
Posted by: Laurie David's Cervix at November 24, 2015 02:57 PM (kdS6q)

... or a Climate Conference.

Posted by: USA at November 24, 2015 03:04 PM (tfM+W)

432 Turkeys shooting down planes? That's a great news story, people.

Posted by: Less Nessman at November 24, 2015 03:04 PM (TJCSB)

433 >>I have always been under the impression the Swiss were ALWAYS ready for war. So war leaves them alone.

I love Switzerland and not just because my crooked family tree bends a little through the place. It's just a gorgeous country with mostly nice people.

But I think it would take about 15 minutes of shock and awe to take it out. I think they buy their safety by being the country that hides everyone's secrets.

Posted by: JackStraw at November 24, 2015 03:05 PM (/tuJf)

434 I think the world leaves Switzerland alone mostly because its almost vertical and there's nothing there in particular to take. I mean, yeah, they're always ready for war, but its like a really angry mouse. Its just horrific terrain and no strategic value.

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at November 24, 2015 03:05 PM (39g3+)

435 I'm not so sure the electorate "gave up"

the State Media were never on board, they were determined to "quagmire" the whole thing

Posted by: Feh at November 24, 2015 03:05 PM (fUWsy)

436 420 -

Likely some of these clowns literally are not old enough to remember longer than 10 years ago. Often brainwashing is best when people don't know they've been brainwashed.

Posted by: BurtTC at November 24, 2015 03:06 PM (X83iY)

437 Putin isn't going to start a nuclear war over one downed airplane.


He will, however, come up with some devious shit that we're not going to see coming.

Posted by: Dack Thrombosis at November 24, 2015 03:06 PM (4ErVI)

438 In my opinion, a generalized fucktard is OK. It's when you name 'em and shame 'em that a line is crossed.

Posted by: The Great White Snark at November 24, 2015 03:06 PM (pItB9)

439
1) I didn't call anyone out by name.
2) Don't praise a kleptocratic thug and I won't call you (not you, specifically) a fucktard.
3) I've read plenty of comments in the last few months both here and at American Thinker praising Putin. AT even did a pathetic article about his defense of the faith.
Posted by: Naes




1. Referring to a specific person doesn't seems to be a criteria. The one or two times I've seen someone banned under The Iron Law, they were referring to a group of posters with the same position: "You Trumptards" and such.

2. See 1

3. Uhhh -- I forget the third one

Posted by: Laurie David's Cervix at November 24, 2015 03:06 PM (kdS6q)

440 Turkey shouldn't even have F-16s. Turkey's value disappeared after the Cold War. Can we name a single thing Erdogan has done which hasn't been a middle finger to the US and NATO? I don't like the fact the Kurds are mostly commies but they seem like a better ally.

Posted by: Naes at November 24, 2015 03:07 PM (Ypc8j)

441 I think the world leaves Switzerland alone mostly because its almost vertical and there's nothing there in particular to take.



No chocolate?

Posted by: rickb223 at November 24, 2015 03:07 PM (hQt/L)

442 There was no appreciable threat from Iraq.

Well there sure as hell isn't now. It was the 3rd largest military in the world in the middle east that violated its cease fire more or less constantly for over a decade. I guess you can just let that slide but eventually its going to bite you.

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at November 24, 2015 03:07 PM (39g3+)

443 "10 years ago"

anybody agree with that guy who wrote The Shallows? all this flitting around on the web can't be good for memory coding

Posted by: Feh at November 24, 2015 03:07 PM (fUWsy)

444 But obama just said that the climate change conference in France will be a powerful rebuke for ISIS... Is the Man delusional ? Never mind...

Posted by: donna at November 24, 2015 03:07 PM (/dSsq)

445 I love Switzerland and not just because my crooked family tree bends a little through the place. It's just a gorgeous country with mostly nice people.

But I think it would take about 15 minutes of shock and awe to take it out. I think they buy their safety by being the country that hides everyone's secrets.
Posted by: JackStraw

it's like most other countries in that the amount of money and effort required to maintain a defense capable of staving off a major power simply isn't possible.

And Army of over 200,000 defending mountain passes and tunnels would work in the WWI era. Once air power cam into existence, the danger of saturation bombing would be too great.

Posted by: Blue Hen at November 24, 2015 03:07 PM (326rv)

446 If you don't think Russia lusts after Iran's oil and gas you aren't paying attention.

Posted by: JackStraw at November 24, 2015 03:00 PM (/tuJf)


*sigh*

Sure, they're both willing to use each other, but there isn't any particular love there, and a heck of a lot of wariness (historically) on the side of Iran. They know that "warm water ports" for Russia can easily be found in the Arabian Sea.

Assad is the servant of two masters and which master is going to be the top master is a darn good question. That question will be asked sooner or later.

Stop with the tough guy stuff already, okay?

Posted by: Mikey NTH - Get You Mute Buttons for the Family Gathering at the Outrage Outlet! at November 24, 2015 03:07 PM (hLRSq)

447 As one of your famous and well-connected movie stars once said:

"Remain calm! ALL IS WELL!!!"

Posted by: Modern Turkman at November 24, 2015 03:07 PM (nSW/N)

448 So yeah: Ron Paul is indeed a whacko bird and the single greatest reason why libertarians and libertarian ideas are considered fringey and absurd, dismissed out of hand.
Posted by: troyriser at November 24, 2015 03:03 PM (cCEFD)

...by you.

And that's fine.

But I think the non-interventionist types have been more right then wrong over the last 15-20 years.

And I'm not including the idiot leftists who are pro-intervention when Obama or Clinton is president and are big Wilsonians under Ds, but were just looking to score political points with Iraq. Which I think is disgraceful. Especially the people who voted FOR the war, then tried to undermine it as much as possible.

But the people who, as a principle, say, "hey, look. Government sucks at pretty much everything they do. Maybe we should not be going around the world setting off all kinds of events with all kinds of unanticipated consequences." are more right then wrong.

Posted by: Harry Paratestes at November 24, 2015 03:07 PM (AkOaV)

449 Can you believe that he was against us getting involved in the war in Iraq? Said it could destabilize the region?

When was the ME stable?

Posted by: VA GOP Sucks at November 24, 2015 03:08 PM (PFy0L)

450 He will, however, come up with some devious shit that we're not going to see coming.




Polonium infused salad dressing at a Turkish state dinner.

Posted by: rickb223 at November 24, 2015 03:08 PM (hQt/L)

451 "He's Sunni. His dad was from Kenya and is step dad was from Indonesia. Where would Shia play in to it?"

His top advisor is Shia. His Sunni father abandoned him.

His stepfather sent him to a private school in Indonesia where the Shia population (upper class) sent it's children. So he was taught by Shia as a boy and hung out with Shia kids.

Muslims hold high positions throughout Obama's administration. Some enterprising journalist should total up how many of each sect is represented.

Why would a Sunni coddle Iran and lift the sanctions on them?

Why did Obama knock off the Sunni Gaddafi, who turned in his WMD and wasn't causing trouble?

Posted by: Meremortal at November 24, 2015 03:09 PM (3myMJ)

452
When was the ME stable?

When the Dinosaurs roamed?

Posted by: donna at November 24, 2015 03:09 PM (/dSsq)

453 There was no appreciable threat from Iraq.

This is revisionist bullshit. The sanctions were coming apart and it would have only been a matter of time.

See: Iran, right now.

Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at November 24, 2015 03:09 PM (659DL)

454 I think the world leaves Switzerland alone mostly because its almost vertical and there's nothing there in particular to take. I mean, yeah, they're always ready for war, but its like a really angry mouse. Its just horrific terrain and no strategic value.

The trick is to roar at just the right moment.

Posted by: Grand Duchy of Fezziwig at November 24, 2015 03:09 PM (326rv)

455 Alright I ran the laps you bitch, now look how tired Mr Hat is!

I'll be your huckleberry.

Posted by: Leslie at November 24, 2015 03:09 PM (DL2i+)

456 First thing I page-searched for when opening the thread was "painter".


Really disappointed that it took 335 comments.

Posted by: Burn the Witch at November 24, 2015 03:10 PM (Wckf4)

457
It's when you name 'em and shame 'em that a line is crossed.
Posted by: The Great White Snark



As said, that's not what I've seen. But the Dragon Law is, as these things tend to be, arbitrary and randomly invoked.

Posted by: Laurie David's Cervix at November 24, 2015 03:10 PM (kdS6q)

458 I have a little book at home written by a Swiss Colonel entitled Total Resistance, the Swiss guide to Guerrilla War. Pretty good how-to book. I also have a set of plans, also Swiss on how to covertly set up a factory for the manufacture of automatic weapons. Also good. I believe they have given war quite a bit of thought.

Posted by: maddogg at November 24, 2015 03:11 PM (xWW96)

459 "Putin isn't going to start a nuclear war over one downed airplane."

Think about that for a second. We are all assuming that Putin makes that decision. The whole world is waiting to see what Putin does next. One man says, 'eff it' shoot'm down.

And then what?

Or is it like Bill Cosby's comedy routine.

"You are on my side of the bed."
"Am not"
"You touched me"
"I touch you two times."
"I hit you."
"You hit me, I hit you back."
"You hit me back, I hit you two times."
"You hit me two times, I punch your lights out."

Posted by: THDeering at November 24, 2015 03:11 PM (Ymx+z)

460
Boy, who knew that a Preznint purportedly playing 11-dimensional chess would prove incapable of playing mere tiddly-winks?

Posted by: Krebs v Carnot: Epic Battle of the Cycling Stars (TM) at November 24, 2015 03:11 PM (BK3ZS)

461 I see gorebull warming is having it's effect today. I think everyone should try some relaxing recycling.

Please don't yoga unless you are of Indian Heritage.

This has been a public service message brought to by the Bacon Council of Illinois.

Posted by: Tim in Illinois. Old and Unimproved. at November 24, 2015 03:12 PM (WVsWD)

462 Why did Obama knock off the Sunni Gaddafi, who turned in his WMD and wasn't causing trouble?
Posted by: Meremortal at November 24, 2015 03:09 PM (3myMJ)

I don't know. I s'pose you could be right.

I think Obama is a typical leftist atheist who looks down on peoples sky gods and thinks he's rising about the ignorant bigoted american people by proclaiming his love for Muslims, but... your theory could work just as well.

Who knows?

Posted by: Harry Paratestes at November 24, 2015 03:12 PM (AkOaV)

463
344 We have been flying over Russian airspace since the 60's, if not before. They seem to have more restraint then we do.
Posted by: Big Ben at November 24, 2015 02:45 PM (mHmjO)


---------------------


You're kidding, right? The only reason they didn't shoot any of our planes down is they had no capability to do it until they did. Remember Francis Gary Powers?

And then we started flying the SR71 and truly outperformed their capabilities.

Posted by: Soona at November 24, 2015 03:12 PM (Fmupd)

464 When was the ME stable?

ME stability can be measured by the number of terrorists it exports.

I don't know what that looks like when it's graphed for the past 100 years, but I can say that it's getting less stable.

Posted by: ReactionaryMonster at November 24, 2015 03:12 PM (0NdlF)

465 @425 "Shoot twice, and go home." You know it.

@428 I knew it. An ignorant Lotharingian. Your wine tastes like cat piss.
No, damn it, Schleswig. A land worth fighting for. A land of milk and...milk.

Swiss, "neutral" =/= "pacifist." Plenty of stake-burnings and such there, in bad old days. Wife's family got r-u-n-n-o-f-t, were Alsatian kinda-sorta for a while. Had to do with a heretic named Menno.

Posted by: Stringer Davis at November 24, 2015 03:12 PM (xq1UY)

466 Bank robbery in France -- not a terrorist situation.

Posted by: Mustapha Kunt -- With a Wang! at November 24, 2015 03:12 PM (iQIUe)

467 @399
1949 Geneva accords. I don't see ISIS or the Turkmen Brigade's signatures on there anyplace. Guess this one will have to go to The Hague. That'll teach 'em.

Yes, agreed. But USA was a signatory, and if Turkey wants to rely on our support as a member of NATO, they're gonna have to act a little more civilized - doubt that will happen

Posted by: FredB at November 24, 2015 03:12 PM (mkgf1)

468 "427
Not to upset anyone, and not to be alarmist, but smug assholes who think
their data driven academic approach to divining financial markets is
applicable to all other fields are the reason we're in this fucking mess
in the middle east in the first goddamn place."

Whatever do you mean?

Posted by: F-35 and The Whiz Kids at November 24, 2015 03:12 PM (nSW/N)

469 >>But the people who, as a principle, say, "hey, look. Government sucks at pretty much everything they do. Maybe we should not be going around the world setting off all kinds of events with all kinds of unanticipated consequences." are more right then wrong.

That sounds very high groundy. It's also largely false.

We don't just go around the world setting off events for shits and grins. We do them in our national interest. Pretending that people in far off lands do not have agency to act without our involvement and those actions can't be extremely injurious to our interests is the height of arrogance.

Back to Iran, for example. We, well the Brits had a deal with the Iranian government for the oil. The Brits would provide the know how and would get a percentage for that know how. Iran went along and then reneged. So the Brits, with our help, put the deal back in place.

It's all well and good to say we should just sit here and do nothing as the world goes about it's merry way. It's also ludicrously obtuse to pretend the world will let us.

We, every county that has the ability, will work in the interests of their country and this will continue forever. There is no other reason to have a country.

Posted by: JackStraw at November 24, 2015 03:13 PM (/tuJf)

470 Hey ace, I think you are failing to appreciate the significance of this. Russia has drawn clear lines and is at war with ISIS. Turkey shoots down Russian jet, then shoots the pilots after ejecting. Then "rebel" force armed by US shoots down QRF rescue helo? From all appearances what's plainly going on here is The Turks support ISIS, and Obama supports ISIS, NATO is an ally of ISIS, and so on.

All the bullshit aside that's what's going on here. In a conflict like this there is no playing both sides against each other. You can't be anti-ISIS and anti-Assad at the same time. This democracy in middle east bullshit is a lie. There are two sides, the pro-Islamist side, and the anti-Islamist side. That's it. This is tribalism.

And none of this bullshit about the Turkmen not being Turks either. In every meaningful sense those guys are a wing of the Turkish armed forces.

Who are the Turks? They are the guys that boo during a moment of silence for victims in Paris at a soccer game. Most Muslims are great people and all that, but the thing about Muslims is that they are Muslims before they are anything else. Doesn't matter how good or liberal they are, they side with the tribe.

This is an interesting opportunity for Putin. If he played his cards right he could seriously fuck with NATO over this. What's to stop him from making the case that Obama and NATO are ISIS sympathizers? What's to stop him from dropping bombs in Turkey or attacking NATO military targets? And frankly, would he not be justified in doing so? And how would NATO respond? They are seriously going to make war with Russia, a nuclear power, in defense of what, ISIS? Because it opposes Putin's war against Islamists in Syria? That dog aint gonna hunt. The Republican Congress would probably side with Putin against its own president.

Posted by: Rastus at November 24, 2015 03:13 PM (VjlMj)

471 Erdogan's comments about protecting Turkmen makes it seem more likely that the Russian jet was in fact over Syria, not Turkey.

Posted by: Ensign Crunch at November 24, 2015 03:13 PM (Y8P5w)

472 But the people who, as a principle, say, "hey, look. Government sucks at pretty much everything they do. Maybe we should not be going around the world setting off all kinds of events with all kinds of unanticipated consequences." are more right then wrong.Posted by: Harry Paratestes at November 24, 2015 03:07 PM (AkOaV)

We either proactively engage the bad guys of the world on our terms and at our initiative or they will most assuredly engage us on theirs.

Posted by: troyriser at November 24, 2015 03:14 PM (cCEFD)

473 2) Don't praise a kleptocratic thug and I won't call you (not you, specifically) a fucktard.

He's got a point. Accurate description <> personal attack.

Posted by: Leslie at November 24, 2015 03:14 PM (DL2i+)

474 Generalized fooktaird always devolves to specific fooktaird. Slippery slope axiom applies to speech.

Posted by: Man from Wazzustan at November 24, 2015 03:14 PM (ccNyn)

475 Yes, agreed. But USA was a signatory, and if Turkey wants to rely on our support as a member of NATO, they're gonna have to act a little more civilized - doubt that will happen
Posted by: FredB at November 24, 2015 03:12 PM (mkgf1)

Wasn't the Turks who shot the pilots.

It was our "moderate rebel allies" in Syria.

The Turks just blew up the plane (also, seemingly, in Syria)

Posted by: Harry Paratestes at November 24, 2015 03:14 PM (AkOaV)

476 He's Sunni. His dad was from Kenya and is step dad was from Indonesia. Where would Shia play in to it?

Posted by: Harry Paratestes at November 24, 2015 03:00 PM (AkOaV)




Multiple, complex Daddy issues?

"Take that Daddies! BOTH of you!!!"

Posted by: Country Singer at November 24, 2015 03:14 PM (8Y7+f)

477 I don't know what that looks like when it's graphed for the past 100 years, but I can say that it's getting less stable.

There was a time about 2003-2006 or so when it was a lot more stable. Then treason and betrayal from leftists back home supporting the bad guys and encouraging them finally reversed it.

No, damn it, Schleswig. A land worth fighting for. A land of milk and...milk.

And Danish girls!

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at November 24, 2015 03:14 PM (39g3+)

Posted by: Bruce at November 24, 2015 03:15 PM (8ikIW)

479 "Putin isn't going to start a nuclear war over one downed airplane."

Think about that for a second. We are all assuming that Putin makes that decision. The whole world is waiting to see what Putin does next. One man says, 'eff it' shoot'm down.

The most likely thing is giving the Kurds the heavy weapons that they want. And remember that this is after the US is finally giving them some support.

if the Kurds use any of it on the Turks, they go batshit, and decide whether or not to respond. if they do, JEF gets to stand there while his two "allies" are wailing on one another. And Putin will gladly keep feeding the Kurds, if it pisses off JEF and the Turks.

Meanwhile, Putin and Hollande are doing more to fight ISIS (and prop up Assad) than JEF, who's running his big mouth about global bullshit.

Posted by: Grand Duchy of Fezziwig at November 24, 2015 03:15 PM (326rv)

480 >>>>The invasion of Iraq actually stabilized the region until Obama screwed it up



Yeah I gave up hope trying to get people to remember 10 years ago,
like it was ancient history or something. When some get an idea in
their heads, they just stop thinking and won't listen to facts, reason,
or history.
.
.
.I get beat up (on here and other blogs) for reminding people of that fact. Also the fact that the US won the Vietnam War before we just up and quit.

Posted by: The Great White Scotsman at November 24, 2015 03:15 PM (iONHu)

481 Can we replace Turkey in NATO with Russia?

Posted by: Beef Supreme at November 24, 2015 03:15 PM (c8V4N)

482 In 1985, maybe. In 2015, I would pay cash money to watch the Russians even try.
Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at November 24, 2015 01:51 PM (659DL)

Russia military spending 2014: $84 billion
Turkey military spending 2014: $17 billion
In one-on-one conflict in 2015, Turkey gets run over.

Posted by: Jon at November 24, 2015 03:16 PM (HA+/6)

483 Funny, ProgCultists like Obama, Kerry, and Hillary! tell us that terrorists are not muslims. So, if they aren't muslim, it can't be Islamaphobia! if we bomb the fuck out of terrorists or shut down their Western mosques, which aren't mosques because, per the ProgCultists, they are not muslim.

Posted by: Ensign Crunch at November 24, 2015 03:16 PM (Y8P5w)

484 It was justified but it was a mistake. There was no appreciable threat from Iraq.

Wrong on both counts - would you like a cookie?

Posted by: Leslie at November 24, 2015 03:16 PM (DL2i+)

485 We either proactively engage the bad guys of the world on our terms and at our initiative or they will most assuredly engage us on theirs.
Posted by: troyriser at November 24, 2015 03:14 PM (cCEFD)

But most of the world are bad guys, we have a terrible record of picking winners and losers, and I don't think you'll find too many people who agree that fighting wars in Vietnam, Korea, Grenada, Bosnia, Afghanistan and Iraq made us any safer.

I mean feel free to make the arguments, but ...

Posted by: Harry Paratestes at November 24, 2015 03:16 PM (AkOaV)

486 Time to deploy the old classic: "If Russia attacks Turkey from the rear, will Greece help?"


Try the veal. Don't forget to tip your waitress.

Posted by: Alberta Oil Peon at November 24, 2015 03:17 PM (7MWCL)

487 Not to upset anyone, and not to be alarmist, but when Archduke Ferdinand was assassinated in Sarajevo, no one predicted the chain reactions that would ensue and spark off a world war.

I've seen this repeated a few times now. When Archduke Franz Ferdinand was shot it was front page, large font news everywhere. People might not have predicted it would lead to as big a conflict as it did, but the fact it led to a major conflict was no shock.

Posted by: AD at November 24, 2015 03:17 PM (EGIeN)

488 We should have bailed out of NATO in the bush administration anyway. It served its purpose, time to take our boys home and stop propping up socialist idiots in Europe. The reason they can waste their money on stupid schemes is because we're paying their defense budget to begin with.

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at November 24, 2015 03:17 PM (39g3+)

489 381 why didn't Obama enforce no-fly's against Assad when he had the chance? what was the deal between him and the mollahs in Iran?
Posted by: Feh at November 24, 2015 02:54 PM (fUWsy)

_________________

Turkey didn't give the US permission to use their air fields as a base of operation until a few months ago.

Apparently the logistics of enforcing a no fly zone from a carrier are not very good.

Posted by: Make America Great Again at November 24, 2015 03:18 PM (LXJ1e)

490 Whatever do you mean?
Posted by: F-35 and The Whiz Kids at November 24, 2015 03:12 PM (nSW/N)

I mean instead of statesmen and leaders we have marketers and twitter/poll chasers running the show.

Posted by: Ghost of kari at November 24, 2015 03:18 PM (xuouz)

491 Thousands of overflights and yet WWIII never started. We would never allow (pre bama) that to happen here. Nor should we.

I fear Obama much more than Putin.

Posted by: Big Ben at November 24, 2015 03:18 PM (mHmjO)

492 rastus, that's a yep

I won't bet that Putin will bomb Turkey NATO targets right now

but if he doesn't call out Obama as effectively an ISIS ally, he's slipping

has Hollande commented on the downing of the jet yet?

Posted by: Feh at November 24, 2015 03:18 PM (fUWsy)

493 Then "rebel" force armed by US shoots down QRF rescue helo?

Posted by: Rastus at November 24, 2015 03:13 PM (VjlMj)





I wouldn't put any stock in that. The video that allegedly shows the SAR bird being shot with a US TOW is very suspect. Primarily because there's no way a SAR rotary wing asset is going to be sitting stationary on the ground without the blades turning while on a hot LZ.

Posted by: Country Singer at November 24, 2015 03:18 PM (8Y7+f)

494 "Not to upset anyone, and not to be alarmist, but when Archduke Ferdinand was assassinated in Sarajevo, no one predicted the chain reactions that would ensue and spark off a world war."

__________________________________________________

Whatever is going to happen is going to happen. We have a petulant man-child occupying the WH who will not change course, or play any role in preventing escalation, so WTF am I going to get worked up over at this point?

Worse case scenario is that Obama will forever be remembered as the Chamberlain of our time as the world burns to the ground. Best case scenario things aren't so far out of hand by the time a new administration takes over that we can actually have influence and bring a return of sanity. Either case there isn't anything I can do about it at this moment, so I'm not going to fret over it. I'm too damn nauseated with the nitwit currently leading us to do anything but shake my head in disgusted.

Posted by: NotCoach at November 24, 2015 03:18 PM (rsudF)

495
I think the world leaves Switzerland alone mostly because its almost vertical and there's nothing there in particular to take.



No chocolate?

Posted by: rickb223 at November 24, 2015 03:07 PM (hQt/L)







The cuckoo clock

Posted by: Harry Lime at November 24, 2015 03:18 PM (gwpf+)

496 Wrong on both counts - would you like a cookie?

Posted by: Leslie


Only if you put it between your tits and squeeze them.

Posted by: weft cut-loop at November 24, 2015 03:19 PM (9YDUz)

497
So, just when does the grand global warming conference to end all global warming conferences start in Paris?

Were I Putin, I'd seize on Barky's lack of laser-like focus on anything of substance in favor of photo ops and make some serious moves during that confab.

Posted by: Krebs v Carnot: Epic Battle of the Cycling Stars (TM) at November 24, 2015 03:20 PM (BK3ZS)

498 Not to upset anyone, and not to be alarmist, but when Archduke Ferdinand was assassinated in Sarajevo, no one predicted the chain reactions that would ensue and spark off a world war.


Oh, c'mon. I'm sure it won't get that bad. By the way, is Jamie Gorelick single?

Posted by: zombie Gavrilo Princip at November 24, 2015 03:20 PM (nmuBf)

499 november 30

Posted by: Feh at November 24, 2015 03:20 PM (fUWsy)

500 470 You can't be anti-ISIS and anti-Assad at the same time. This democracy in middle east bullshit is a lie. There are two sides, the pro-Islamist side, and the anti-Islamist side.


I'll somewhat disagree. Assad's main patron is Iran-the most dangerous Islamist nation on Earth with abundant resources and nuclear ambitions, so it's not that cut and dry.

Posted by: Naes at November 24, 2015 03:20 PM (Ypc8j)

501 nood

Posted by: Harry Paratestes at November 24, 2015 03:20 PM (AkOaV)

502
Generalized fooktaird always devolves to specific fooktaird. Slippery slope axiom applies to speech.
Posted by: Man from Wazzustan




See the famous case of Schenck v. Fucktard

Posted by: Laurie David's Cervix at November 24, 2015 03:21 PM (kdS6q)

503 "Not to upset anyone, and not to be alarmist, but when Archduke Ferdinand was assassinated in Sarajevo, no one predicted the chain reactions that would ensue and spark off a world war."

Really? Tuchman's premise in the Guns of August was that that Europe was inexorably heading toward war for the previous 20 years. She even quoted Brits writing things like "when the inevitable war with Germany comes" years before 1914. The entire month of July, 1914 was spent trying to avoid a large scale war triggered by a labyrinthine tangle of mutual defense treaties. There were many, many contemporary fears that Franz Ferdinand's assassination would trigger a pan-European war from the day that it happened.

Posted by: Rick at November 24, 2015 03:21 PM (4P0ds)

504 Should I be trying to learn Russian?

Posted by: jewells45 at November 24, 2015 03:21 PM (l/N7H)

505 ***"I get beat up (on here and other blogs) for reminding people of that fact."***


There's a big wave of collective amnesia on the right concerning Iraq. It speaks to the power of Leftist propaganda.

Posted by: Burn the Witch at November 24, 2015 03:23 PM (Wckf4)

506 481 Can we replace Turkey in NATO with Russia?
Posted by: Beef Supreme at November 24, 2015 03:15 PM (c8V4N)


---------------


Bad idea. NATO (and the UN) should be dissolved. Neither organization is worth a shit now.

Posted by: Soona at November 24, 2015 03:23 PM (Fmupd)

507 Nood. Git, little corgis.

Posted by: RedMindBlueState at November 24, 2015 03:23 PM (pLwjI)

508 I don't think it's very civilized, to shoot people who are parachuting down. Turkey should be ashamed of itself for that.



For the rest - I dunno. I don't much like any of 'em.

Posted by: Persnickety at November 24, 2015 01:45 PM (SZa8B)


I would draw a distinction between aircrew bailing out of a stricken plane, and paratroopers mounting an assault. For the former, their war is over (at least nominally), and they are due to become POW's. The latter represent a real and present danger to those on the ground.

Posted by: Alberta Oil Peon at November 24, 2015 03:23 PM (7MWCL)

509 If Patrick Swayze were still alive, Putin wouldn't be pulling any of this shit.

Wolverines!

Posted by: Beef Supreme at November 24, 2015 03:24 PM (c8V4N)

510 Welcome to military involvement in the middle east, Mr. Putin....Not quite like wrestling bears with your shirt off, is it?

Posted by: macleod at November 24, 2015 03:25 PM (Qf5bp)

511 488 We should have bailed out of NATO in the bush administration anyway. It served its purpose, time to take our boys home and stop propping up socialist idiots in Europe. The reason they can waste their money on stupid schemes is because we're paying their defense budget to begin with.
Posted by: Christopher Taylor at November 24, 2015 03:17 PM (39g3+)

-------------------------

We ought to bug out of the ME too.

Posted by: Make America Great Again at November 24, 2015 03:26 PM (LXJ1e)

512 "And Danish girls!"
Well, they were Danish...

The thing? With Switzerland? And also Luxembourg. There are these big mountains, very hard to get around, and the good passes go right through these places. You can bomb them, but then you can't use the roads that go through the passes. And the passes have these forts and redoubts that could take anything but a direct nuclear hit.

So what, you may say, Airpower! (And this coming from some who are real "boots on the grounders" most days). The US has no airplane that can carry more than one tank. Russia, same. Euros have one, I think, but they can't afford it. To occupy whatever is on the other side of those Alps from you, you have to Take And Hold those little countries, not just knock them flat. You'd be surprised at the megatonnage you'd need to flatten the Alps. If we, for one instance, ever had it, we don't anymore.

True, the Swiss can't keep you from overflying their airspace. But if you're decent enough to call in advance and make an appointment, their air force would make your close air support very expensive. And you ain't gettin those passes.

Posted by: Stringer Davis at November 24, 2015 03:27 PM (xq1UY)

513 508 I don't think it's very civilized, to shoot people who are parachuting down. Turkey should be ashamed of itself for that.

_______________________

It's against Protocol 1 of the Geneva Conventions of 1949.

Article 42 - Occupants of aircraft
1. No person parachuting from an aircraft in distress shall be made the object of attack during his descent.

Posted by: Adirondack Patriot at November 24, 2015 03:27 PM (NjiZL)

514 I'm too damn nauseated with the nitwit currently leading us to do anything but shake my head in disgusted.

Posted by: NotCoach

I am there as well. I try to remember to make my little piece of the world as kind, peaceful and as happy as I can make it. Appreciating the little things and remembering to be grateful for each day. I pray a lot for our world.

Posted by: Cheri at November 24, 2015 03:27 PM (oiNtH)

515 "I am there as well. I try to remember to make my little piece of the world as kind, peaceful and as happy as I can make it. Appreciating the little things and remembering to be grateful for each day. I pray a lot for our world.

Posted by: Cheri at November 24, 2015 03:27 PM (oiNtH)"

___________________________________________________

Amen.

Posted by: NotCoach at November 24, 2015 03:29 PM (rsudF)

516 I'm not alarmed. After all, if you like your doctor, you can keep your doctor. Same goes for terrorists.

Posted by: Swamprat at November 24, 2015 03:37 PM (b3IgK)

517 I thought shooting at parachuted crew is against the Geneva convention!

But I suppose the Turkmens know the international law better than me!

Surprise every day!

Posted by: John Kerry at November 24, 2015 03:52 PM (Cvb08)

518 "Yes, but, the UN climate conference will be a powerful rebuke to the Turks, or the Turkmens, or Putin." (Flaps hands girlishly) "Or whatever."

Posted by: president caitlyn transitioning to ex president at November 24, 2015 03:54 PM (JTwsP)

519 Not to upset anyone, and not to be alarmist, but
smug assholes who think their data driven academic approach to divining
financial markets is applicable to all other fields are the reason we're
in this fucking mess in the middle east in the first goddamn place.

Posted by: Ghost of kari at November 24, 2015 03:04 PM (xuouz)

As it turns out, their data driven approach to divining financial markets doesn't even work on financial markets.

Posted by: redbanzai at November 24, 2015 04:03 PM (OrI3J)

520 Bank robbery in France -- not a terrorist situation.

Posted by: Mustapha Kunt -- With a Wang! at November 24, 2015 03:12 PM (iQIUe)


ISIS has been financing itself by means of bank robberies in Iraq. So muzzies cannot be ruled out until such time as non-muzzie perps are identified.

Posted by: Alberta Oil Peon at November 24, 2015 04:21 PM (7MWCL)

521 Syria is all about Europe's reliance on Russian natural gas. Qatar wants to supply Europe but needs a pipeline to do so. Assad wont allow it. That is why Putin backs Assad and the west doesn't. Simple as that. Its also why NATO is holding a losing hand right now. Winter without Siberian gas for heat?

Posted by: Semper Gumby at November 24, 2015 04:35 PM (mL+Y4)

522 "...but when Archduke Ferdinand was assassinated in Sarajevo, no one
predicted the chain reactions that would ensue and spark off a world
war."

Crap. I didn't know the pilot was an Archduke. That IS troubling.

Posted by: Kevin at November 24, 2015 05:12 PM (+9ISh)

523 #IStandWithRussia

Erdogan and Turkey are supporting ISIS. Russia is fighting ISIS. Obama and Erdogan are BFFs and Obama has been arming ISIS-linked "rebels" -- those same "rebels" now shooting down Russians who are fighting ISIS.

If this turns into WWIII, Obama built this.

I'm on Russia's side.

I hope Putin sees Obama's latest polls, they are tanking, proves that AMERICANS do not support Obama in his ISIS support.

Posted by: Aslan's Girl at November 24, 2015 06:52 PM (xetep)

524 The Syrian Rebels that do not belong to ISIS are also Jihadists, who work hand in hand with them.

Posted by: Fr. John Whiteford at November 24, 2015 07:02 PM (z95BI)

525 521 Syria is all about Europe's reliance on Russian natural gas. Qatar wants to supply Europe but needs a pipeline to do so. Assad wont allow it. That is why Putin backs Assad and the west doesn't. Simple as that. Its also why NATO is holding a losing hand right now. Winter without Siberian gas for heat?
Posted by: Semper Gumby at November 24, 2015 04:35 PM (mL+Y4)

Bingo. Turkey also get 57% of its nat gas from Russia and another 20% from Iran.
I predict a cold winter in Turkey.
Erdogen's son is the middle man purchasing ISIS oil.
Cant have the Russian fouling up the lining of their pockets.

Posted by: superflex at November 24, 2015 10:45 PM (xTqt/)

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