The GOP's List of Debate Demands Are Terrible

Yesterday I read establishment lawyer Ben Ginsburg's proposed letter of demands to the media regarding debate format. I was annoyed that few of the demands seemed to address the actual problem in the CNBC debate, which is that Republican candidates were being interrogated by Democratic partisans from a progressive perspective.

Instead, it seemed to talk about everything but that.

I wondered if I was missing something.

Harsyani says no, I wasn't missing something. The demands were terrible.

For starters, the slew of limitations proposed in the letter reportedly ed by GOP attorney Ben Ginsberg have absolutely nothing to do with the bias of mainstream media moderators and everything to do with attempts to transform GOP debates into infomercials.

Why can't a network film candidates looking at their notes? And why can’t they show shots of the audience? What does leaving the mic open have to do with dumb questions? Why does the GOP care if there are candidate-to-candidate questions asked during a candidates' debate? None of these restrictions help with the fundamental problem of Harwood-style gotcha advocacy posing as journalism. A raucous argument with genuine questions and disagreements is somewhat useful and watchable (the first Fox debate featured all of these things).
It looks like the revolt is already crumbling....
So really, the Ginsberg letter only needed to offer two sentences: "We promise to sign off on better moderators next time. We apologize for our stupid mistake."

Some of what Harsyani says is wrong, I think. I don't mind at all if candidates want opening and closing statements -- it is important information about a candidate what he thinks the theory of the campaign is all about, even if this is a scripted answer.

And on that, most answers will be scripted anyway. Furthermore, if you refuse to let these guys directly address the public with what they want to say (rather than what the media wants them to say), they will simply slip their opening and closing statements into their answers to other questions.

A debate is about speeches -- yes, pre-written speeches. That's what debates have always been. The idea that it has to be some kind of spontaneous q-and-a session with reporters -- at reporters' initiative, according to reporters' interests and agendas -- concedes the game from the start.

I also think he's wrong about wanting control over chyrons. CNBC's description of Jeb Bush as a "banker" in their chyron -- forgetting to mention that he was a governor -- is egregious, and the candidates should have input into this. Now maybe no one cares about Jeb per se, but what happens when Ben Carson has the chyron "Political wannabe, rude at breakfasts" and Mario Rubio is described as "Financially dubious Hispanic who likes fast boats and easy living"?

Okay they wouldn't go that far -- but as is seen with Jeb, they'll go a lot damn farther than you might have guessed. They are juvenile and brazen -- they have all the courage of an 8th grader who gives sass to a teacher and doesn't sweat it because his parents are rich and well-connected to the mayor.

But most of this crap is bullshit. And it seems like the candidates had a failure of nerve here, or else Ginsburg ignored decided himself to ignore the real issue, which is rampant, unrestrained partisan media bias.

If they can't dare to speak about this, then they've already lost.

On the "Infomercial" Claim: Dave Reaboi makes a good point:

But CNBC debate *was* an infomercial. Msg: "all these jerks suck; reject them all" @AceofSpadesHQ @davidharsanyi https://t.co/1XDfYOcxHP
— David Reaboi (@davereaboi) November 3, 2015

True. The debate was an infomercial -- for the Hillary Clinton campaign, the DNC, and Gramscian Marxism generally.

There's going to be an infomercial here either way. To suggest the media can be "objective" without forcing them to be so is to continue to play their game, and to bless their claims, and to legitimize this corrupt use of information power. Information power should be held as something like a public trust -- not a political club to be used by intense partisans.

We must stop legitimizing them. In fact, we must delegitimize them, but stopping legitimizing them would at least be a good start.

Posted by: Ace at 12:43 PM

Comments

(Jump to bottom of comments)

1 I'm starting to think the GOP leadership isn't really that smart.

Posted by: Hayfield Volkovski at November 03, 2015 12:45 PM (tHYMW)

2

But most of this crap is bullshit. And it seems like the candidates had a
failure of nerve here, or else Ginsburg ignored decided himself to
ignore the real issue, which is rampant, unrestrained partisan media
bias.

If they can't dare to speak about this, then they've already lost.

============================================

To no one's surprise or astonishment.

Posted by: grammie winger, Revelation 22 at November 03, 2015 12:46 PM (dFi94)

3 They want it to be like the Democrat "debate" where they all try to out Socialist each other and never attack each other for Felony behavior.

Kumbaya

Posted by: smileynh at November 03, 2015 12:47 PM (cwBD4)

4 GOPe: We have not yet begun to surrender!

Posted by: TheQuietMan at November 03, 2015 12:47 PM (493sH)

5 Mark Levin for moderator.

Posted by: OK, Thanks, Bye at November 03, 2015 12:47 PM (ucB75)

6 So... I guess they didn't send the one guy that actually knows how to negotiate?

Posted by: Chupacabra at November 03, 2015 12:47 PM (kZVsz)

7 Raise your hand if you thought someone was bravely going to fight this battle.

Posted by: grammie winger, Revelation 22 at November 03, 2015 12:47 PM (dFi94)

8 Yes, we have a post!

Posted by: Max Power at November 03, 2015 12:47 PM (QCc6B)

9 Caring about this stuff only serves to piss me off.

Ignorance may be bliss, but knowledge makes me want to start a revolution.

Posted by: Blano at November 03, 2015 12:48 PM (C3E0x)

10 I'm starting to think the GOP leadership isn't really that smart.

They're IN.ON.IT.

Posted by: Grump928(c) at November 03, 2015 12:48 PM (evdj2)

11 Okay they wouldn't go that far -- but as is seen with Jeb, they'll go a lot damn farther than you might have guessed. They are juvenile and brazen -- they have all the courage of an 8th grader who gives sass to a teacher and doesn't sweat it because his parents are rich and well-connected to the mayor.

Sure they would. Why shouldn't they? There's nothing to stop them and no actual downside to doing so.

Posted by: alexthechick - Oh please intervene SMOD at November 03, 2015 12:48 PM (mf5HN)

12 So... I guess they didn't send the one guy that actually knows how to negotiate?

Posted by: Chupacabra at November 03, 2015 12:47 PM (kZVsz)

That one guy probably wants no candidate to candidate questions. (Which is by far the stupidest part of this.)

Posted by: tsrlbke PhD(c), rogue bioethicist at November 03, 2015 12:49 PM (tM4uk)

13 One bright side: this just creates more opportunities for Cruz, Carson, and Trump to highlight the party's fecklessness.

Posted by: Bubba at November 03, 2015 12:49 PM (bpn7O)

14 Well, there goes Content Free Tuesday...

Posted by: Garrett at November 03, 2015 12:49 PM (QKQ5a)

15 your italics are blank.

Posted by: mallfly at November 03, 2015 12:49 PM (qSIlh)

16 Any debate agreement that doesn't include six weeks of paid paternity leave is a non-starter.

Posted by: Grump928(c) at November 03, 2015 12:50 PM (evdj2)

17 I'm starting to think the GOP leadership isn't really that smart.

They're IN.ON.IT.
Posted by: Grump928(c)

THREADWINNER!!

Posted by: rickb223 at November 03, 2015 12:51 PM (ksPsw)

18
What the GOPe will settle for may be of only academic interest, since Trump has said he'll negotiate directly with the TV suits, and he's the big draw.

The talent gets what they want.

Posted by: Laurie David's Cervix at November 03, 2015 12:51 PM (kdS6q)

19
Ginsburg is shilling for the GOP, and whatever the campaigns seek will be disregarded and they will be baffeled with bullshit by Ginsburg. Send Ginny to the curb and allow the successful Trump team to kick some butt and lay out a reasonable set of terms and conditions.

Posted by: Doctor Fish at November 03, 2015 12:51 PM (OiFtZ)

20 We have Top Men on this.

Top. men.

Posted by: GOP at November 03, 2015 12:51 PM (QKQ5a)

21 Yo!

Posted by: Yo! at November 03, 2015 12:52 PM (GwIKd)

22 A debate is about speeches -- yes, pre-written speeches.

Zzzzzzzzzz.

Posted by: Voters at November 03, 2015 12:52 PM (xrX4n)

23 Is this the hill the GOP will die on?

Posted by: Yo! at November 03, 2015 12:53 PM (GwIKd)

24 From the Willowed Thread:

1. As a pathological liar, Obama has a "tell"; any time he says "I'm not going to..." that is exactly what he intends to do.

2. He is releasing federal prisoners.

3. He just did away with requirement to check on criminal records for federal employees.

4. He said: "I'm not going to confiscate guns."

Based
on the above the obvious conclusion is that he intends to form a "shock
troop" made up of gang members etc. to form the core of his internal
security force - 'as large, well funded, and well trained as the
military' to confiscate guns. I think he will be very disappointed with
the outcome of that Federal jobs program.

Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they aren't out to get me.

Posted by: An Observation at November 03, 2015 12:53 PM (QIMZq)

25 These guys cannot even put together a list of reasonable demands and they think they can govern this country? God help us.

Posted by: maddogg at November 03, 2015 12:53 PM (xWW96)

26 Nice new thread, lots of room, you don't mind if I stash some refugees in here, do you?

Oh yeah, which direction is Mecca from the comment box?

Posted by: Angie Merkel at November 03, 2015 12:53 PM (7v/r5)

27 6 So... I guess they didn't send the one guy that actually knows how to negotiate?
Posted by: Chupacabra at November 03, 2015 12:47 PM (kZVsz)

You mind if I give it a try?

Posted by: Corbin Dallas at November 03, 2015 12:53 PM (2Ojst)

28 Well, there goes Content Free Tuesday...
Posted by: Garrett at November 03, 2015 12:49 PM (QKQ5a)

But it is rape Tuesday? This qualifies. Jury is out on who is raping who here, but either way we the people are still the ultimate victims.

Posted by: LizLem at November 03, 2015 12:53 PM (hvf9s)

29 What Trump is doing is interesting. He is trying to remove the profit to the networks, by insisting they donate the ad revenue to charity. We tend to forget that these networks have been profiting YUGELY from the ad revenue during the debates.

I still think that moving the debates to the internet is the best way to go. CSPAN might be acceptable. But this list of demands is pathetic. "Please, just make the mean girls like us!"

Posted by: notsothoreau at November 03, 2015 12:54 PM (5HBd1)

30 Isee no mention of the MM colors in the back stage rooms.

Posted by: CSMBigBird at November 03, 2015 12:54 PM (jsWA8)

31
We also want all the brown skittles removed.

Posted by: Rinse Penis at November 03, 2015 12:54 PM (yfObW)

32 what I want to know is if we'll have universal free abortion for transgendered wymin who feel like they're carrying unwanted children.

Posted by: Mallfly Cloggenstein of Bratwurst Vt at November 03, 2015 12:54 PM (qSIlh)

33 One step forward, thirty steps back.

Posted by: El Kabong at November 03, 2015 12:54 PM (MCmqp)

34 Eeek! Eeek! Eeek!

Posted by: Ruby Rhod at November 03, 2015 12:55 PM (kZVsz)

35
@24

Yep!

Posted by: Hayfield Volkovski at November 03, 2015 12:55 PM (tHYMW)

36 It's almost as if the GOP is a stupid party or something.

Posted by: Monsieur Mew Mew at November 03, 2015 12:56 PM (0LHZx)

37 so did the RNC jump in to keep Trump and Carson from making some actually valuable demands?

Posted by: Mallfly Cloggenstein of Bratwurst Vt at November 03, 2015 12:56 PM (qSIlh)

38 It's all about determining the moderators and the structure of the debate.

I'd argue the RNC (totally controlled by majority vote of the top five polling candidates) approves the moderators and then works to determine the structure. Publically, the only thing announced is that the RNC has decided the next moderators will be X,Y and Z. Everything else is private. Done.

Posted by: MTF at November 03, 2015 12:56 PM (TxJGV)

39

BREAKING NEWS!! Obama has just announced that he is mandating a new American military salute, based on Liberal beliefs.
You raise both hands high above your head...

Posted by: John Spartan at November 03, 2015 12:56 PM (e8kgV)

40 I demand Bill Murray as the sole moderator of all debates from now on. And they should last 5 hours, with or without candidates.

Posted by: dfbaskwill at November 03, 2015 12:56 PM (zllbf)

41 >>> He is releasing federal prisoners.
3. He just did away with requirement to check on criminal records for federal employees.

I thought all of this was so that later they can be all "look at these poor criminals doing so well rehabilitating, they should be allowed to vote again! How dare you take away their voting right when they are productive citizens!!"

It's always about going on the offensive with getting new voters for the dems. Always. But yes creating a Brute Squad of yoots is a nice bonus.

Posted by: LizLem at November 03, 2015 12:56 PM (hvf9s)

42
Donald Trump is outright rejecting the Republican joint debate letter to TV networks, and tonight John Kasich, Chris Christie, and Carly Fiorinas campaigns also made it clear they wont be signing the letter. The letter includes some very specific demands about how the debates should go.

mediaite.com

So, that letter is now a non-event.

Posted by: Laurie David's Cervix at November 03, 2015 12:56 PM (kdS6q)

43 Whoever is broadcasting a particular debate should get to provide one of the moderators. The GOP should choose the others. If the one MSM moderator asks biased questions, so what? Number 1, the contrast with the other moderators should be obvious, which will make the msm critter look (even more) awful. 2. The other moderators will still be able to ask questions that republican voters care about, so the debates will allow the GOP candidates to get their issues out in front of the voters. 3. By having the debates occur on msm outlets, the GOP gets its message out to the less plugged in viewers who might not bother watching if they have to track it down on the internet. 4. Having the one msm moderator is also useful as it will give the viewers a chance to see how the different candidates hold up under hostile and unfair questioning, which is an important skill for any GOP candidate.

Posted by: Anon Y. Mous at November 03, 2015 12:56 PM (IN7k+)

44 They won't even fight for their own selves. I should think they will fight for people like me?

Posted by: grammie winger, Revelation 22 at November 03, 2015 12:56 PM (dFi94)

45 Where do I send my resume?

Posted by: Brave Sir Robin at November 03, 2015 12:57 PM (B3WUC)

46 So now its becoming more clear why Trump dumped the negotiations.

Posted by: Iblis at November 03, 2015 12:57 PM (rP2JJ)

47 and Ace, some words in italics are still showing up blank. Your house, your rules, but make sure the lights all work, ok?

Posted by: Mallfly Cloggenstein of Bratwurst Vt at November 03, 2015 12:57 PM (qSIlh)

48 After his awful condescending and elitist rant about manufacturing over at The Federalist, Harsanyi is dead to me.

I've never read such drivel in my life. And if anybody ever sees him, you can tell him I said so.

Posted by: BackwardsBoy at November 03, 2015 12:57 PM (LUgeY)

49 >>>but as is seen with Jeb, they'll go a lot damn farther than you might have guessed.

Haha, just wait till next September/October. They are going to pull out all the stops.

Posted by: Max Power at November 03, 2015 12:57 PM (QCc6B)

50 48 After his awful condescending and elitist rant about manufacturing over at The Federalist, Harsanyi is dead to me.

I've never read such drivel in my life. And if anybody ever sees him, you can tell him I said so.
Posted by: BackwardsBoy at November 03, 2015 12:57 PM (LUgeY)

Link?

Posted by: Insomniac at November 03, 2015 12:58 PM (2Ojst)

51 Trump makes 'em all look like a bunch of whiners..

Posted by: Chi-Town Jerry at November 03, 2015 12:59 PM (so+oy)

52 I think the RNC would MUCH prefer Hillary over Trump or Carson.

Posted by: Max Power at November 03, 2015 12:59 PM (QCc6B)

53 The candidates need to tell the RNC to get stuffed, and proceed to negotiate their own deal.

Perhaps an intrepid Moron could do some investigative journalism, and let's see how close this RNC lawyer's ties are to the Media/Party/K Street revolving credit accounts?

We've never had, and likely will never again enjoy an opportunity quite so ripe as this, for the tipping over of the Media Money Changers' Tables, and the driving them from the Temple, etc.

One thing is for certain, the RNC is effectively useless, once again.

Bypass them on this, and let them go on to setting up the National Convention and the like.

Oh, and if we can't get Mark Levin on the Supreme Court or as Attorney General, let's give him a turn as RNC Chairman. Him, or Ted Nugent. Someone, anyone who knows how to fight, fight effectively and with cleverness and intelligence.

Not the fetid, feckless and ineffective soft-handed wimps that run the damn thing now.

Jim
Sunk New Dawn
Galveston, TX

Posted by: Jim at November 03, 2015 12:59 PM (McRlu)

54 There are reports that Ginsburg/GOPe have been altogether cut out of the negotiations by the leading candidates. He can write all the letters he wants, but he can't represent people who don't agree to it.

Posted by: Semi-literate Thug at November 03, 2015 01:00 PM (/f6Nd)

55 If they can't dare to speak about this, then they've already lost

The GOPe HAS already lost, Ace. Some of the candidates, not so much. After all, even a couple of the absolute-zero, no-hopers opened their mouths (for whatever reason) about the way CNBC was handling the substantive part of the debate. And, love him or hate him, Trump has supposedly decided to negotiate with the hosts of the remaining debates himself.

Didn't hear anyone complaining the hall was too hot, or that their favorite color of MampersandMs was missing from the Green Room. That appears to be a worry for the Hotshot Lawyer, and maybe Rinse Prius.

Personally, I'd like to see the impossible: debate moderators asking genuine, substantive questions of the wannabes of both parties without revealing their own agendas. That is not beyond the ability of intelligent and educated men and women, though there are damn few among the MFM who could qualify.

Any time you make demands after you've already been pushed into the defensive, you look like a loser. As usual, that's exactly what the GOPe looks like by "demanding" changes to a setup they've already accepted.

Posted by: MrScribbler at November 03, 2015 01:00 PM (qiCMH)

56 Tomorrow is the anniversary of the Terhan embassy takeover

Posted by: Yo! at November 03, 2015 01:00 PM (GwIKd)

57 Megyn Kelly mocked the demands, "Do you want a foot massage too?"

I think she's part of the problem, but I'd pay to give her a foot massage.

Posted by: Bruce Boehner at November 03, 2015 01:00 PM (E5UB0)

58 Rubio chyron: Yacht Owner

Posted by: Cicero (@cicero) at November 03, 2015 01:01 PM (8ZskC)

59 That atty who drafted the changes was there as a representative if the RNC
That's what preibus said yesterday

So if course nothing meaningful came of it

The RNC set the debates up this way
This is how they want it

They want Houston telemundo debate right before the votes

They intend to make Jeb or the rube the nominee, period.

Posted by: ginaswo at November 03, 2015 01:01 PM (qxNrP)

60 >>>46 So now its becoming more clear why Trump dumped the negotiations.

Me: I'm not sure if I can vote for this Trump guy.

GOP: Ya sure? Here's our latest example of dickless incompetence.

Posted by: El Kabong at November 03, 2015 01:01 PM (MCmqp)

61
We can't do anything about this situation until-

all of the broadcast networks are owned lock, stock, and barrel by the RNC.

Won't you please contribute for this great undertaking?

If you don't the Democrats will win, and there is nothing at all, absolutely nothing, that we will be able to do about it.

Please send whatever you can to -

RNC Buys Up All of the Broadcast Networks Fund.

If you don't contribute-

you're stupid and part of the problem!

Posted by: GOPe Spokesweasel at November 03, 2015 01:01 PM (0cMkb)

62 Don't forget about Mean Girl Barry Obama piling on like debate wounds are a badge of courage for unqualified hacks.

Clown. Show.

Posted by: Fritz at November 03, 2015 01:01 PM (UzPAd)

63 If they can't dare to speak about this, then they've already lost.
_______________________

Yes, they're gutless pussies and we have all ready lost. We lost quite a while ago.

Posted by: BuckIV at November 03, 2015 01:03 PM (CLfqv)

64 Is this what the RNC wants, or the RNC and candidates? I can see the RNC issuing these weak sauce of demands.

Posted by: WOPR at November 03, 2015 01:03 PM (hstc4)

65 The next debate on Fox Bussiness will be good. I don't think Neil Cavuto is capable of being a male Megyn Kelly and they are advertising it as "a real debate."

If any of the rest of the debates go the way of the CNBC one, Trump and Carson will pull out. Trump especially has been going on about how much money the networks are making. He isnt going to let them keep making money off him while they treat him like shit. Neither will Carson.

Posted by: L, Elle at November 03, 2015 01:03 PM (FTf+m)

66 This is why an Article V Convention would fail. The reps sent there would go off on some wild tangent.

That's why if you want something done right . . .

Posted by: Count de Monet at November 03, 2015 01:03 PM (JO9+V)

67 I knew the RNC negotiations would be shit. But with the campaigns and Trump singularly negotiating, this might break the MFM's stranglehold on some of the primary process.

This could get very interesting before this is over.

Posted by: Soona at November 03, 2015 01:03 PM (Fmupd)

68 The GOP never fails to disappoint.

Posted by: Tilikum Killer Assault Whale at November 03, 2015 01:04 PM (uhftQ)

69 The deal id dead.. Trump, Fiorina and Kasich have dropped out.. so this was a lesson in futility that shows the rest of these candidates are a bunch of pussies.

Posted by: Chi-Town Jerry at November 03, 2015 01:04 PM (so+oy)

70 Which is why ONE guy decided to negotiate himself.

That's right, the hateful, evil, Klown himself; Trump.

The only one with the sense God gave an ant:

Don't let your enemies determine the battlefield and the rules.

Posted by: Bitter Clinger and All That at November 03, 2015 01:04 PM (Xo1Rt)

71 I think chyrons should be used across the board, especially for commentators and newsreaders. I remember a couple of years ago, before he started his campaign, CNN identified Carson as "Conservative Neurosurgeon."

Conservative Neurosurgeon.

On the same program, Van Jones was passed off as the head of some NGO, with no "Marxist" before his description.

Posted by: BeckoningChasm at November 03, 2015 01:04 PM (B8JRQ)

72 Sure they would. Why shouldn't they? There's nothing to stop them and no actual downside to doing so.

Posted by: alexthechick - Oh please intervene SMOD at November 03, 2015 12:48 PM (mf5HN)

We don't even get podcasts as promised. Why should the RNC be different.

Posted by: WOPR at November 03, 2015 01:05 PM (hstc4)

73 Ridiculous. Absolutely, stunningly clueless.

The GOPe is just a parody of itself anymore.

Preibus has to go. NOW.

Posted by: WhatWhatWhat? at November 03, 2015 01:05 PM (r9tFS)

74 Awful, no good, very bad Harsanyi manufacturing link:

http://tinyurl.com/q98y2ha

Notice that more than a few commenters tell him the same thing I do.

And I have a dollar to bet that he can't change a flat tire.

Posted by: BackwardsBoy at November 03, 2015 01:05 PM (LUgeY)

75 My demands:

The debate must be made available to the public through internet streaming for free. Advertisements may be shown on this stream.

All/a majority of the moderators will come from conservative media outlets. The network will bid on the right to broadcast the debate and will enjoy all ad revenue gained from the debate, but it will not use the debate as a means to promote the network's talent. Only one moderator may be a full time employee of the network in question (or however you need to frame it to keep it from just being an ad for watching Anderson Cooper on CNN or NBC or whatever) and this moderator may not ask more than 25% of the questions.

Posted by: darii at November 03, 2015 01:06 PM (RdrW8)

76 "We can't do anything about this situation until-

all of the broadcast networks are owned lock, stock, and barrel by the RNC. "
------------------------

Too Late.

All the radio stations in D.C. are owned by the Chinese, and I don't think they are going to sell.

Posted by: Hayfield Volkovski at November 03, 2015 01:06 PM (tHYMW)

77 The point was made by the debate itself, but like most political hacks some of them are trying to beat a dead horse.

Posted by: The Jackhole at November 03, 2015 01:06 PM (3mTyP)

78 See the thing is, to most all of the candidates, they actually have no problem with the media. It's all part of the structure they are part of.

Even Trump. But Trump knows that in this case, the media is arrayed against him.

The others, win or lose, still are part of the establishment that the media is the voice of.

The UniParty.

Posted by: Bitter Clinger and All That at November 03, 2015 01:06 PM (Xo1Rt)

79 MFM: Okay. You caught us. We're partisan lying hacks. We're totally exposed. Now let's sit down and try to negotiate a reasonable solution before we look even worse and destroy all our credibility.

GOP: Okay. Can you turn down the AC and lower the podiums about 2 inches please?

MFM:.............you got it!

Posted by: El Kabong at November 03, 2015 01:06 PM (MCmqp)

80 The deal id dead.. Trump, Fiorina and Kasich have
dropped out.. so this was a lesson in futility that shows the rest of
these candidates are a bunch of pussies.

Posted by: Chi-Town Jerry at November 03, 2015 01:04 PM

Link?

Hard to imagine Kasich joining the "rebellion." Hell, if it wasn't for his pathetic teevee spots here in the East, I wouldn't even know he was running. And I thought ol' Carly was a darling of the edgy GOPe hipster wing.

Posted by: MrScribbler at November 03, 2015 01:07 PM (qiCMH)

81

Press conferences and interviews are not debates. Candidates should debate each other, not a "moderator".

Posted by: Back to the fewcha at November 03, 2015 01:07 PM (q4hvt)

82 74 Awful, no good, very bad Harsanyi manufacturing link:

http://tinyurl.com/q98y2ha

Notice that more than a few commenters tell him the same thing I do.

And I have a dollar to bet that he can't change a flat tire.
Posted by: BackwardsBoy at November 03, 2015 01:05 PM (LUgeY)

Grazie.

Posted by: Insomniac at November 03, 2015 01:08 PM (2Ojst)

83 Here is an article at HuffPo with the headline "Reince Priebus: RNC in Charge of Debates"

For some reason it won't let me copy and paste so here is a link:

http://bit.ly/1Mfeaq5

Basically he says, the RNC is doing this for their own good. Get over it.

Posted by: grammie winger, Revelation 22 at November 03, 2015 01:08 PM (dFi94)

84 Cage match, olive oil and bikinis.

Candidates may choose a surrogate, but draw lots ensuring that each surrogate is from a different discipline, such as beach volleyball, figure skating, cheerleading, or Kate Upton.

Posted by: Bandersnatch, Opus/Bill the Cat 2016 at November 03, 2015 01:08 PM (JtwS4)

85 Grazie.

DeNiro.

Posted by: BackwardsBoy at November 03, 2015 01:08 PM (LUgeY)

86 74 Awful, no good, very bad Harsanyi manufacturing link:

http://tinyurl.com/q98y2ha

Notice that more than a few commenters tell him the same thing I do.

And I have a dollar to bet that he can't change a flat tire.
Posted by: BackwardsBoy at November 03, 2015 01:05 PM (LUgeY)

__________

Whether or not he can change a tire is irrelevant. The article is right, we glorify manufacturing jobs and it makes no sense, as he outlined very well.

Posted by: Monsieur Mew Mew at November 03, 2015 01:09 PM (0LHZx)

87 The GOP wants Jeb to be the nominee. The media is currently doing EXACTLY the job they wish them to do: damage all the other nominees. They can damage Jeb too, they don't care, so long as Jeb is damaged exactly as much or less than the others so they do not want to change the "debate" process AT ALL. This is just more failure theater! Focus on the issues?! They are thinking "not just no, but HELL NO".

It isn't like they believe Jeb will WIN against Hillary, that isn't his job. It is to run and fail. Just like Romney and McCain. Then they can say "Give us money to fight against those darn Democrats" and they have to produce nothing in return.

I am 100% convinced that the GOP has created a complete setup in the nomination process to ensure Jeb will be the candidate, and that Trump is the only thing that is disrupting their very carefully crafted plan. Job #1 right now is "tear down Trump".

Posted by: Mordineus at November 03, 2015 01:10 PM (SJfLd)

88 Candidates may choose a surrogate,

Can we haz Ivanka?

Posted by: WhatWhatWhat? at November 03, 2015 01:10 PM (r9tFS)

89 Whether or not he can change a tire is irrelevant. The article is right, we glorify manufacturing jobs and it makes no sense, as he outlined very well.

...said the other guy who can't change a flat tire.

Posted by: BackwardsBoy at November 03, 2015 01:10 PM (LUgeY)

90 Hard to imagine Kasich joining the "rebellion." Hell, if it wasn't for his pathetic teevee spots here in the East, I wouldn't even know he was running. And I thought ol' Carly was a darling of the edgy GOPe hipster wing.

Posted by: MrScribbler at November 03, 2015 01:07 PM (qiCMH)

I wonder how Kasich is going to handle the next debate when he is asked about drugs after Ohio legalizes marijuana today.

Posted by: buzzion at November 03, 2015 01:10 PM (zt+N6)

91 Trump, Fiorina, Christie & Kasich Won't Sign Debate Demand Letter - America's Newsroom

https://youtu.be/rU9Y4ZnlMdc

Posted by: Chi-Town Jerry at November 03, 2015 01:11 PM (so+oy)

92 We want MMs....no brown ones.

Posted by: BignJames at November 03, 2015 01:11 PM (HtUkt)

93 Dropping the pretense of "debate" would be a viable media counter-move. They don't want debate, they do want Q&A. They should sell it that way and see who has the stones to show up and think on their feet. I can feel a media counter attack coming.

Posted by: goon at November 03, 2015 01:11 PM (gy5kE)

94 The Republicans defer to the Democrats and the Democrats defer to the Iranians. Can't we just save ourselves some time and declare ourselves to be an Iranian territory, with Khamenei as our supreme leader?

/s

Posted by: Bruce Boehner at November 03, 2015 01:11 PM (E5UB0)

95 Whatever the criticism against Trump are, and there are legitimate ones, he is shrewd and doesn't like to get pushed around. Outside of Obama and Hitlery, the media are making concessions to him as a R candidate that are unheard of.

If he and Carson threaten cutting the RNC and networks out altogether and live streaming it, they will back down because they lose all they have --- money and influence and power.

Posted by: L, Elle at November 03, 2015 01:11 PM (FTf+m)

96 Those who make the things keep the money

Posted by: The Jackhole at November 03, 2015 01:12 PM (3mTyP)

97 Today's news is that Carson trumps Trump in a national poll. But this poll doesn't assess likelihood to vote (especially in primaries) and even appears to mix all respondents regardless of party affiliation.

Meanwhile a Florida only poll shows Trump with a commanding lead and both Trump and Carson beating
Hillary.

Looks like Rubio doesn't have a shot to win Florida unless Carson and Jeb! are out. If Rubio can't win Florida then he's likely out of contention, no?

Posted by: Ignoramus at November 03, 2015 01:12 PM (r1fLd)

98 Hey, I used to have those...ampersands......where'd they go?

Posted by: BignJames at November 03, 2015 01:13 PM (HtUkt)

99 Bet Jeb could fix this. Said no one ever.

Posted by: Puddin Head at November 03, 2015 01:13 PM (oDCMR)

100 70
Which is why ONE guy decided to negotiate himself.

Don't let your enemies determine the battlefield and the rules.

Posted by: Bitter Clinger and All That at November 03, 2015 01:04 PM (Xo1Rt)
****************This. And it is one of the defining features of Trump -- take action. Sometimes he is ready, fire, aim but other times not. The rest of them haven't reached ready yet.

Posted by: gracepmc at November 03, 2015 01:13 PM (DMQhB)

101 98 Hey, I used to have those...ampersands......where'd they go?
Posted by: BignJames at November 03, 2015 01:13 PM (HtUkt)

Got moved offshore.

Posted by: Insomniac at November 03, 2015 01:14 PM (2Ojst)

102 89 Whether or not he can change a tire is irrelevant. The article is right, we glorify manufacturing jobs and it makes no sense, as he outlined very well.

...said the other guy who can't change a flat tire.
Posted by: BackwardsBoy at November 03, 2015 01:10 PM (LUgeY)

________

Again. It's irrelevant. Whether I can change a tire or not, doesn't affect his argument one way or another. Yet the fact you bring up tire changing shows me you can't defend your position.

Posted by: Monsieur Mew Mew at November 03, 2015 01:14 PM (0LHZx)

103 Jeb chyron: Latino Activist

Posted by: Cicero (@cicero) at November 03, 2015 01:14 PM (8ZskC)

104 If he and Carson threaten cutting the RNC and networks out altogether and live streaming it, they will back down because they lose all they have --- money and influence and power.

That's a great idea. Anything that reduces their power is a good thing.

IIRC, the Yahoo stream of last week's NFL game in London was a hit. Now, Yahoo doesn't necessarily need to be in on a live stream, maybe they could just do it and sell commercial time on their own.

Posted by: BackwardsBoy at November 03, 2015 01:15 PM (LUgeY)

105 And Obama is being the smuggest of the smug dickwads about this.

Posted by: Lauren at November 03, 2015 01:15 PM (GZ6Pf)

106 So you learn something new every day. I had no idea what a chyron was. I knew what it was, I just didn't know that thingy at the bottom of the screen is called a chyron.

Posted by: Monsieur Mew Mew at November 03, 2015 01:16 PM (0LHZx)

107 In the interest of staving off blood shed in this country. I have a series of questions and and answers for any members of the leftist coalition of Beta, Gamma, and Delta males, LGBTs, angry feminists, #blacklivesmatter rabble rousers - etc.

The questions:

1. A.Who invented the machine gun? B. Why?
2. A. Who invented strategic bombing? B. Why?
3. A. Who invented the Atomic Bomb? B. Why?
4. A. Who invented the Hydrogen Bomb? B. Why?

The Answers:

In each case the correct answer to the part A questions is "White Alpha males". The answer to the B question is "Because we couldn't kill people fast enough without that invention."

So basically your game plan is to piss off an entire group of the worst serial mass killers in the history of the world, then grind them down and dominate them with emoticons and hashtags.

Interesting game plan - let me know how that works out for you.

Posted by: An Observation at November 03, 2015 01:16 PM (QIMZq)

108 89 Whether or not he can change a tire is irrelevant. The article is right, we glorify manufacturing jobs and it makes no sense, as he outlined very well.

...said the other guy who can't change a flat tire.
Posted by: BackwardsBoy at November 03, 2015 01:10 PM (LUgeY)

-----------------

Damn! Beat me to it, BB.

Posted by: Soona at November 03, 2015 01:16 PM (Fmupd)

109 Posted by: Chi-Town Jerry at November 03, 2015 01:11 PM

Thanks. Still strikes me as a bit weird. I mean, I can see Trump standing up for himself; it's something he has done before. But I'm guessing there was an element of "hey, me too! Notice me" in Kasich and Fiorina's refusals.

This is one issue where Every. Damn. Candidate. should be able to agree. It has nothing to do with their ideology or their poll numbers. It only has to do with how comfortable they are with getting sandbagged, over and over.

In fact, it makes me wonder what the GOPe would do if all the candidates banded together and said (in essence): "Screw you, RINOs. I want the support of a party that shows some guts."

Posted by: MrScribbler at November 03, 2015 01:16 PM (qiCMH)

110 You know, I keep thinking that the Republican party can't get any stupider.

And then...

Posted by: West at November 03, 2015 01:16 PM (1Rgee)

111 drafted by GOP attorney Ben Ginsberg

That's the bulk of the problem, right there - letting the Vichy GOP be involved. The Vichy GOP are in league with the MSM and the dems.

CNBC's description of Jeb Bush as a "banker" in their chyron -- forgetting to mention that he was a governor -- is egregious

Besides, Neil is the real "banker" in the Bush clan.

Posted by: ThePrimordialOrderedPair at November 03, 2015 01:16 PM (zc3Db)

112 >>>>> Hey, I used to have those...ampersands......where'd they go?
Posted by: BignJames
--------
They've been given to the H1B1 visa holders to use.

Posted by: L, Elle at November 03, 2015 01:16 PM (FTf+m)

113
Any other Fargo fans? I find this season disappointing. They are going over board with the accents to make people look foolish. None of the characters are sympathetic except the deputy and his family but the wife is dying and that is depressing. And there is the excessive cruelty.

Posted by: Bruce With a Wang! at November 03, 2015 01:17 PM (iQIUe)

114 Well, dagnabbit, we tried.

Oh well.

Posted by: GOPe at November 03, 2015 01:17 PM (LA7Cm)

115 Or the candidates couldn't agree on what they wanted.

Or what you want is not what they want.

People, People, People. Why fight and fuss and feud? Just put me in charge and see how well everything runs as I smooth out all differences like a hot, heavy, steam iron removing all of the individual wrinkles from our national fabric.

Posted by: Mikey NTH - Take A Cruz On Our Marco-Boats At The Outrage Outlet! at November 03, 2015 01:17 PM (hLRSq)

116 >>>105 And Obama is being the smuggest of the smug dickwads about this.

He still doesn't realize what I did in his mouth.

Posted by: Putin at November 03, 2015 01:17 PM (MCmqp)

117 69
The deal is dead.. Trump, Fiorina and Kasich have dropped out.. so this
was a lesson in futility that shows the rest of these candidates are a
bunch of pussies.

Did someone say pussies?

Posted by: Bill on the way to a sex island at November 03, 2015 01:18 PM (zllbf)

118 Debates....not the hill do die on.

Posted by: Monsieur Mew Mew at November 03, 2015 01:18 PM (0LHZx)

119 And I have a dollar to bet that he can't change a flat tire.

Posted by: BackwardsBoy at November 03, 2015 01:05 PM (LUgeY)

=================================================

Or wire a new hospital.

Posted by: grammie winger, Revelation 22 at November 03, 2015 01:18 PM (dFi94)

120 Any other Fargo fans? I find this season disappointing. They are going over board with the accents to make people look foolish. None of the characters are sympathetic except the deputy and his family but the wife is dying and that is depressing. And there is the excessive cruelty.
Posted by: Bruce With a Wang!

that was an observation about the movie. Everyone in flyover country is stupid, crazy or both.

Posted by: Blue Hen at November 03, 2015 01:18 PM (326rv)

121 I've said this a number of times before: the Repub establishment mostly consists of people who feel that we can't win as conservatives (Reagan was a fluke, nothing more) so we need to be the moderate version of the Dems. Every time the Dems take a step to the left, we do the same so we look like the real moderates and that will get people to let us have the White House about half the time. House and Senate? Better to leave them to the Dems, so when things go wrong, people will surely ignore all the MSM reporting that blames the Repubs (no matter who controls what, the MSM will always blame the Repubs for a gov't shut down.) The leaders of the Repub minority get to make statements on national TV while the Dems do whatever it is they want, and if the Dems raise taxes, the establishment Repub minority leaders will crow that they stopped the Dems from raising taxes even more.
ok, enough, I'm gonna start rambling.

Posted by: mallfly and the millions for Mumia at November 03, 2015 01:18 PM (qSIlh)

122 "very bad Harsanyi manufacturing "

I only skimmed the article and the last line :
bunch of Luddites who believe America greatness is contingent on reinstating an antiquated factory-based economy.

is poorly phrased and should be rewritten. We don't want to try and compete with slave labor in manufacturing. We don't want to abandon manufacturing and become a 'service' economy.

What we want to do is lead the globe, not compete with it. We want to do the things no one else can do. We want to invent and manufacture the things no one else can think of.

Textiles? sure let the chinese do that. We should build rocket ships, and ray guns, and do research no one else on the planet can do, and exploit that knowledge.

Put it in earthly perspective, the colonies expanded over the eastern mountains and the white settlers made use of the resources the native people couldn't. We went west and found more resources to exploit. We built railroads and clipper ships.

We need to get off this planet, get out of the UN, get the UN out of the US, and start building weapons in space, in case we have to nuke everyone from orbit just to be sure they don't make trouble like they are doing now.

Posted by: Hayfield Volkovski at November 03, 2015 01:18 PM (tHYMW)

123 Or wire a new hospital.

Posted by: grammie winger, Revelation 22 at November 03, 2015 01:18 PM (dFi94)

______

Again, where is the relevance? You got me I can't wire a hospital. Now tell me why that piece is wrong.

Posted by: Monsieur Mew Mew at November 03, 2015 01:19 PM (0LHZx)

124 re 116: sure he does

Posted by: Reggie at November 03, 2015 01:19 PM (qSIlh)

125

I think this was all the various campaigns could agree too

all Jeb's people wanted was to get the Televisione La Raza themed debate back on in Houston

all the candidates do not have the same interests

and I think the GOPE and the RNC rely in the the MFM to destroy the most conservative candidates for them

I think this was all they could get all parties to sgree to

Posted by: ThunderB, Money Will Not Overcome Voter Rejection at November 03, 2015 01:19 PM (zOTsN)

126 "A debate is about speeches -- yes, pre-written speeches."

Huh?

Debates are about an exchange and defense of ideas regarding a particular subject. It's about describing why your position on a particular issue is superior or will solve a specific problem.

Some of that may be "canned" because a premise and proposition, by nature, is somewhat limited in description in order to be cogent and not ethereal.

A "speech" is linear. It's not dynamic, not does it lend itself to an interactive discussion.

This should not be about "speeches". It should be about ideas, a defense of those ideas and why the presenter feels he or she is the best person to get it done.

Stating this is about speeches belies the very meaning of "debate".

Posted by: Marcus T at November 03, 2015 01:20 PM (GGCsk)

127 Just for fun, the candidates should schedule a live-stream only event, outside of the debate schedule (and the RNC/MSM cabal) and hire their own mods.

I'd like to at least see what their idea of the "right way" to organize the event might be.

Posted by: MTF at November 03, 2015 01:20 PM (TxJGV)

128 Posted by: Monsieur Mew Mew at November 03, 2015 01:09 PM (0LHZx)

You do realize that with the amount of manufacturing base that we've lost, we would be hard pressed to provide our military even a limited amount of materiel if our outside sources were cut off AND we don't have the infrastructure NOR the work force to accomplish any sort of immediate build up.

In other words; if someone starts a ground war, we're fcuked.

Posted by: Bitter Clinger and All That at November 03, 2015 01:20 PM (Xo1Rt)

129 Fucking twits, that is what they are.

If EVERY SINGLE DEBATE were like the one hosted by CNBC, they would be far better off.

Let the MFM assholes try and ask their gotcha questions, and slam them back for their bias.

We want fighters, not pussies.

Posted by: the littl shyning man at November 03, 2015 01:20 PM (U6f54)

130 So Frank Rich is correct?

Posted by: Bretzysdude at November 03, 2015 01:20 PM (pxC7w)

131 ...said the other guy who can't change a flat tire.
Posted by: BackwardsBoy at November 03, 2015 01:10 PM

And Harsyani's piece was indeed truly awful. Foggy, nonsensical ideas, turgid writing, all overlaid with a whiff of "I'm too good to do a greasy menial job, you know." He's sort of David Brooks with an unintelligible name.

If that's the sort of shit he spews out generally, the so-called "conservative" Pundit Class is in even worse shape than I thought. If that's possible.

Posted by: MrScribbler at November 03, 2015 01:21 PM (qiCMH)

132

I mean you said it yourself

"establishment lawyer Ben Ginsberg"

he has zero interest in getting rid of the partisan moderators

they perform a service for GOPe

Posted by: ThunderB, Money Will Not Overcome Voter Rejection at November 03, 2015 01:21 PM (zOTsN)

133 Textiles? sure let the chinese do that. We should build rocket ships, and ray guns, and do research no one else on the planet can do, and exploit that knowledge.

_______

Excatcly. And that's what we do more or less. We make 747s and "make" twitter and facebook and Amazon while the Chinese make trinkets. And that's a good thing.

Posted by: Monsieur Mew Mew at November 03, 2015 01:21 PM (0LHZx)

134 It's no wonder at all that Trump is running as much against the GOPe as against the Dems.

Posted by: WhatWhatWhat? at November 03, 2015 01:21 PM (r9tFS)

135 Yea verily, whosoever shall say unto the appointed moderator "Fuck You, Next Question", even though they be of foul temperament or foolish demeanor, surely they shall I follow and give my vote unto them.

For it is written that whosoever taketh up the mein of Gozer the Destroyer shall usher in the Burning Times steadfastly so that none shall doubt the coming. And we shall rejoice in the Fire as it cleanses the false and the foolish alike.

Posted by: Azenogoth (Freedom or Fire) at November 03, 2015 01:22 PM (z/vX9)

136 Freedom means being able to submit to the progressive narrative in any language you want.

Posted by: Hillary at November 03, 2015 01:22 PM (3dOE/)

137 With the ad revenue generated largely due to Trumparama, it sure seems the candidates should be able to choose conservative/moderate moderators.

Trump claimed CNBC normally gets $2000 for a 30 second ad, but the debate got $250,000. They had the highest ever ratings, at like 14 million I think.

For the candidates to bring in all the revenue, but be treated like clowns, is insane. Leadership means controlling the process, and it's the networks that get the revenue, so must meet demands.

Posted by: Illiniwek at November 03, 2015 01:22 PM (1XT+t)

138 Trump never signed on to this. He's going to negotiate with the networks himself, but I haven't heard anything about it today. Apparently it's thought Trump doing this basically made the above moot. I guess we'll see.

Posted by: Dack Thrombosis at November 03, 2015 01:22 PM (4ErVI)

139 >>>What we want to do is lead the globe, not compete with it. We want to do
the things no one else can do. We want to invent and manufacture the
things no one else can think of.<<<

Two choices:

a ) the military industrial complex
ii ) the mainstream media industrial complex

Posted by: Fritz at November 03, 2015 01:23 PM (UzPAd)

140 that was an observation about the movie. Everyone in flyover country is stupid, crazy or both.
Posted by: Blue Hen at November 03, 2015 01:18 PM (326rv)
========
Agreed on the movie. I hated it. But the first season of the tv show was excellent and they didnt make the people look stupid at all.

Posted by: Bruce With a Wang! at November 03, 2015 01:23 PM (iQIUe)

141 And Harsyani's piece was indeed truly awful. Foggy, nonsensical ideas, turgid writing, all overlaid with a whiff of "I'm too good to do a greasy menial job, you know." He's sort of David Brooks with an unintelligible name.

If that's the sort of shit he spews out generally, the so-called "conservative" Pundit Class is in even worse shape than I thought. If that's possible.
Posted by: MrScribbler at November 03, 2015 01:21 PM (qiCMH)

___________

He never said manufacturing is bad. He said we need to stop glorifying it over other industries.

Posted by: Monsieur Mew Mew at November 03, 2015 01:23 PM (0LHZx)

142 Okay they wouldn't go that far

I wouldn't be so sure. Remember all the "accidents" that CNN used to have with the Bush administration that never, ever have happened with any Democrat president?

Its pretty obvious that just having people who will be voting GOP do the debates is the best path. After all, this is an in-party thing, choosing what candidate they'll run. There's absolutely zero logic to having non-party members, or especially the other party, run the debates.

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at November 03, 2015 01:23 PM (39g3+)

143 The MFM: Goddamn, do we hate those backwards hillbilly conservative jesusland conservative assholes!

The GOPe: Hey, how you doin'?

Posted by: El Kabong at November 03, 2015 01:23 PM (MCmqp)

144 Yea verily, whosoever shall say unto the appointed moderator "Fuck You, Next Question", even though they be of foul temperament or foolish demeanor, surely they shall I follow and give my vote unto them.

For it is written that whosoever taketh up the mein of Gozer the Destroyer shall usher in the Burning Times steadfastly so that none shall doubt the coming. And we shall rejoice in the Fire as it cleanses the false and the foolish alike.
Posted by: Azenogoth (Freedom or Fire)

Uh.....What he said.

Posted by: We're invoking Satan before Happy Hour now? at November 03, 2015 01:23 PM (326rv)

145 Me and my bullshit!

Posted by: Brian Williams at November 03, 2015 01:24 PM (doEgs)

146 The field was lost when someone handed Ginsberg the command.

Posted by: Jean at November 03, 2015 01:24 PM (ztOda)

147 Again, where is the relevance? You got me I can't wire a hospital. Now tell me why that piece is wrong.

Posted by: Monsieur Mew Mew at November 03, 2015 01:19 PM (0LHZx)
=========================================
A cursory reading of the article left me with the impression that the author places a low value on work done with one's hands. That many of those types of jobs would be better suited to robots, and that instead of giving attention to jobs that involved, say, work that makes you sweat, we instead should be focused on work that makes your butt fatter by sitting in a chair all day.

I want to know who is going to wire the new hospital? My son-in-law would be very surprised to learn that he should be focused on chair-sitting instead of getting those operating rooms up and running.

Posted by: grammie winger, Revelation 22 at November 03, 2015 01:24 PM (dFi94)

148 re 133: "Excatcly. And that's what we do more or less. We make 747s and "make" twitter and facebook and Amazon while the Chinese make trinkets. And that's a good thing."

and laptops and tvs and what else..?

Posted by: Mallflower at November 03, 2015 01:24 PM (qSIlh)

149
Debates?

cackle, cackle, cackle, cackle, cackle, cackle, cackle, cackle, cackle, cackle, cackle, cackle, cackle, cackle, cackle, cackle, cackle, cackle,

*whew*

Whatever,, I've soooo got this thing in the bag...

*hic*

Posted by: Hillary Clinton at November 03, 2015 01:24 PM (HSmrB)

150 WSJ poll states;
" 63% of Democrats...want the 45th president to bridge differences in the country."

So they'll vote for the haggard, old Washington insider who lies like a rug and throws ad hominems at everyone who doesn't agree with her or actually formulates a cogent question.

*BLINK*

Posted by: Marcus T at November 03, 2015 01:25 PM (GGCsk)

151 ...and I can change a tire, on a car or truck on budd wheels or Dayton split rims...

Posted by: Hayfield Volkovski at November 03, 2015 01:26 PM (tHYMW)

152

I think the GOPe is going to regret their "winner take all" for Florida now

they did it to ensure a Jeb coronation

and now Trump is in the lead, followed by Carson

winner take all = Trump take all

at least at this point

Posted by: ThunderB, Money Will Not Overcome Voter Rejection at November 03, 2015 01:27 PM (zOTsN)

153 Well asking for a pretty pony is a step up for them.
The long road to the Rumsfeld Strangler begins with a single step?

Posted by: DaveA at November 03, 2015 01:27 PM (DL2i+)

154 Keep digging that hole, Moo.

Posted by: BackwardsBoy at November 03, 2015 01:27 PM (LUgeY)

155 A cursory reading of the article left me with the impression that the author places a low value on work done with one's hands. That many of those types of jobs would be better suited to robots, and that instead of giving attention to jobs that involved, say, work that makes you sweat, we instead should be focused on work that makes your butt fatter by sitting in a chair all day.

I want to know who is going to wire the new hospital? My son-in-law would be very surprised to learn that he should be focused on chair-sitting instead of getting those operating rooms up and running.
Posted by: grammie winger, Revelation 22 at November 03, 2015 01:24 PM (dFi94)

__________

You're confusing manufacturing with building hospitals. When people talk about manufacturing they mean assembly line type work, nit wiring a building. And obviously there will always be a need for electricians since you can import a pre-wired building (for now anyway).

The premise is that rich countries don't and should NOT be in the low skill manufacturing business. Textiles should be left to the 3rd world.

Posted by: Monsieur Mew Mew at November 03, 2015 01:28 PM (0LHZx)

156 "I think the GOPe is going to regret their "winner take all" for Florida now

they did it to ensure a Jeb coronation

and now Trump is in the lead, followed by Carson..."

Heh. Let's hope the numbers hold where they are. That would be awesome.

Posted by: Ricardo Kill at November 03, 2015 01:29 PM (LA7Cm)

157 102 89 Whether or not he can change a tire is irrelevant. The article is right, we glorify manufacturing jobs and it makes no sense, as he outlined very well.

...said the other guy who can't change a flat tire.
Posted by: BackwardsBoy at November 03, 2015 01:10 PM (LUgeY)

________

Again. It's irrelevant. Whether I can change a tire or not, doesn't affect his argument one way or another. Yet the fact you bring up tire changing shows me you can't defend your position.
Posted by: Monsieur Mew Mew at November 03, 2015 01:14 PM (0LHZx)

-----------------------------

It's a matter of what a nation produces. It's called GDP for a reason.

Posted by: Make America Great Again at November 03, 2015 01:30 PM (LXJ1e)

158 I support universal background checks for all politicians running for office.

Posted by: John Spartan at November 03, 2015 01:30 PM (e8kgV)

159 133: "Excatcly. And that's what we do more or less. We make 747s and "make" twitter and facebook and Amazon while the Chinese make trinkets. And that's a good thing."

Except that "we" you mention is an ever shrinking minority in this country.

Not everyone is a Bill Gates or Mark Zuckerberg. What do you propose that the 300 other million people do to earn a living?

And what do you propose to do once trade wars come back in vogue? Who will you get your textiles from once China decides it's no longer in its best interest to provide the U.S. the textiles and materials necessary for the U.S. to go to war with China?

The "Global Economy" is all well and good...until someone decides to mess with your logistics chain. One weak link breaking and your whole system shuts down until you can fix or replace it.

And international shipping is a very big and very weak link.

Posted by: Azenogoth (Freedom or Fire) at November 03, 2015 01:30 PM (z/vX9)

160 154 Keep digging that hole, Moo.
Posted by: BackwardsBoy at November 03, 2015 01:27 PM (LUgeY)

_____

Whatever dude. If you don't take my word or Harsany, read up on some guy named Adam Smith who made the same point.

Posted by: Monsieur Mew Mew at November 03, 2015 01:30 PM (0LHZx)

161 Keep digging that hole, Moo.

Posted by: BackwardsBoy at November 03, 2015 01:27 PM

To paraphrase the immortal Frank Zappa (as Ruben Sano of the band Ruben and the Jets): "The present-day Moo Moo refuses to die!"

Posted by: MrScribbler at November 03, 2015 01:30 PM (qiCMH)

162 We make 747s and "make" twitter and facebook and Amazon while the Chinese make trinkets. And that's a good thing.

Posted by: Monsieur Mew Mew

how the fuck do you propose to make a 747 without manufacturing it?

Posted by: weft cut-loop at November 03, 2015 01:30 PM (xrX4n)

163 "want the 45th president to bridge differences in the country."

"Bringing the country together" means.....well......bullsh!t.

Posted by: Ricardo Kill at November 03, 2015 01:30 PM (LA7Cm)

164 Me? I'd hold out for an open bar with high quality liquor before and after the debate. If you keep ordering double scotch and dump it into the gigantor hip flask you would have booze for a couple of weeks. Plus, all your opposition trying to keep up would be drunk or passed out and you could get two hours of free campaign time.

Posted by: Man from Wazzustan at November 03, 2015 01:31 PM (uPxUo)

165 The premise is that rich countries don't and should NOT be in the low skill manufacturing business. Textiles should be left to the 3rd world.

Sooo, you're against a diversity of opportunities for people of various capability.

How elitist of you.

Posted by: BackwardsBoy at November 03, 2015 01:31 PM (LUgeY)

166 . He said we need to stop glorifying it over other industries.

Which is the problem.

Posted by: Jean at November 03, 2015 01:32 PM (ztOda)

167 >>>150 WSJ poll states;
" 63% of Democrats...want the 45th president to bridge differences in the country."

You left out the 'by any means necessary' part.

The left has a history of bridging differences with dead bodies.

Posted by: El Kabong at November 03, 2015 01:32 PM (MCmqp)

168 Alright, Mr DeMille, I'm ready for my close-up.

Posted by: norma jebmond at November 03, 2015 01:32 PM (HbSdt)

169 people who stop making things are eventually beholden to those that do, especially in times of crisis

Posted by: ThunderB, Money Will Not Overcome Voter Rejection at November 03, 2015 01:33 PM (zOTsN)

170 Not everyone is a Bill Gates or Mark Zuckerberg. What do you propose that the 300 other million people do to earn a living?

_______

That's a silly argument. Was everyone the CEO of a steel company back in the "good old days" of manufacturing?

Our standard of living as improved over the past 30-40 years as manufacturing left the country. That doesn't mean everyone is better off, but at a macro level we are better off with less manufacturing.

Posted by: Monsieur Mew Mew at November 03, 2015 01:33 PM (0LHZx)

171 I had great faith in the GOP ... that they would screw up this opportunity like they have every one before it.

I hate it when I'm right.

Posted by: Socratease at November 03, 2015 01:33 PM (FqHs5)

172 We make 747s and "make" twitter and facebook and Amazon while the Chinese make trinkets. And that's a good thing.

Posted by: Monsieur Mew Mew

how the fuck do you propose to make a 747 without manufacturing it?
Posted by: weft cut-loop

Now taking bets on when mini moo hides behind Todd Akin.

I got $5 down on 3:30.

Posted by: Blue Hen at November 03, 2015 01:33 PM (326rv)

173 I can set up an assembly line, after having designed the process and fabricated the fixtures and trained the operators and assembly people.

But I'm almost 69 and don't have many years left to pass on that knowledge and it IS knowledge. Sure robots are good, for proven designs with large unit goals.

What if you only need 200 hundred of a unit that's fiddly to make and difficult to cut the cost for?

And we don't do that stuff as much as we used to. It's all done overseas. Far away. And the completed goods are shipped here in actual SHIPS that are vulnerable to attack.

Did you know that we can't build nukes anymore? Or large payload rockets? Because the trained workers are either dead or retired and the plants have been razed.

And there's thousands of items necessary to warfare/defense that are in the same situation.

Sure. EVENTUALLY we could gear up to build the stuff. But that would take time we might not have. And that's also not counting the raw materials that we'd have to mine or procure from overseas. You know, by ships again.
Hell we don't even build much shipping anymore. Nor do we have the captains and crews to crew them.

And all those buggers (most of them) work with their hands and have years of experience that makes it look easy.

Posted by: Bitter Clinger and All That at November 03, 2015 01:33 PM (Xo1Rt)

174 At some point the penis rinsing must cum to an end.

Posted by: Brian Williams at November 03, 2015 01:33 PM (doEgs)

175 Ah, so the American Socialist Unity Party pretends to be two separate entities again. Surprise!

Posted by: Commissar M at November 03, 2015 01:34 PM (Xx2PC)

176 I am big. It's the debates that got small.

Posted by: norma jebmond at November 03, 2015 01:34 PM (HbSdt)

177 165 The premise is that rich countries don't and should NOT be in the low skill manufacturing business. Textiles should be left to the 3rd world.

Sooo, you're against a diversity of opportunities for people of various capability.

How elitist of you.
Posted by: BackwardsBoy at November 03, 2015 01:31 PM (LUgeY)

________

That's not what I said and you know it. The labor value added to make a $3 pair of socks is a a few pennies. That's why $3 socks are made in Vietnam or Bangladesh and not in Ohio.

Posted by: Monsieur Mew Mew at November 03, 2015 01:35 PM (0LHZx)

178 how the fuck do you propose to make a 747 without manufacturing it?

Posted by: weft cut-loop at November 03, 2015 01:30 PM

You do what we've long since started to do: sell blueprints and manufacturing rights to China.

This is the fatal flaw in Harsyani's bullshit: let your enemies control the dirty work of making stuff, and you let them control you.

And I won't even start on the millions of Americans who, whether by choice, intellect or ability, wind up taking manufacturing jobs rather than living off the dole. I'm guessing the dream for the Real Conservative Thinkers is that we'll reach a day where we breed nothing but Supermen with towering intellects and automatic trust funds.

Posted by: MrScribbler at November 03, 2015 01:35 PM (qiCMH)

179 "want the 45th president to bridge differences in the country."

"Bringing the country together" means.....well......bullsh!t.
Posted by: Ricardo Kil

"I want to vote the d party ticket but that sounds so unhip and icky, so I say this shit instead."

"And wait till you hear the crap I spew about why I hate rethuglickans!"

Posted by: leftards at November 03, 2015 01:36 PM (326rv)

180 how the fuck do you propose to make a 747 without manufacturing it?
Posted by: weft cut-loop

________

You win stupid question of the day.

Posted by: Monsieur Mew Mew at November 03, 2015 01:36 PM (0LHZx)

181 I am big. It's the debates that got small.
Posted by: norma jebmond

*golf clap*

Posted by: leftards at November 03, 2015 01:37 PM (326rv)

182 >> " 63% of Democrats...want the 45th president to bridge
>> differences in the country."

Differences that have been and are every day being aggravated by their current leader.

Hint: Anyone who uses the term 'identifies as' in a non-ironic fashion is not building bridges, he or she (note lack of additional gender pronouns) is burning them.

Posted by: JEM at November 03, 2015 01:37 PM (o+SC1)

183 Funny. Last night on "Special Report" Mara Liasson said she thought the demands were very reasonable.

Posted by: Grampa Jimbo at November 03, 2015 01:37 PM (1ijHg)

184 M&Ms (WARNING - ABSOLUTELY NO BLUE ONES)

Posted by: peacelovewoodstock at November 03, 2015 01:37 PM (X+HRW)

185 at a macro level we are better off with less manufacturing.
Posted by: Monsieur Mew Mew at November 03, 2015 01:33 PM (0LHZx)

That's the sort of stupid comment I would expect from a B of A in Art History.

You have NO CLUE about what you speak of.

None.

By sending our manufacturing overseas we've given our country and our children up as hostages to fortune.

We are at the mercy of any power strong enough and ruthless enough to enforce their will upon us. We have few ways to fight back on a large enough scale.

It is thinking like yours that has precipitated the last 3 world wars.

Posted by: Bitter Clinger and All That at November 03, 2015 01:38 PM (Xo1Rt)

186 GOPe Spokesweasel

How many Spokesweasels are in the Failure Theater tour bus.
One things for sure they're all bent

Posted by: DaveA at November 03, 2015 01:38 PM (DL2i+)

187 It always amazes me how so many people want to have the standard of living of a 3rd World country. Cuz that's basically what you're saying when you whine about "lost manufacturing jobs".

I'd rather live in a country where software engineers make $100K and not in a country where sock sewers make $2K (if they're lucky).

Posted by: Monsieur Mew Mew at November 03, 2015 01:38 PM (0LHZx)

188
You win stupid question of the day.
Posted by: Monsieur Mew Mew

And mini moo will be awarding you that stupid question that you just won, as he is the font of such gems.

Posted by: leftards at November 03, 2015 01:38 PM (326rv)

189 I am big. It's the debates that got small.
Posted by: norma jebmond

I'm told that the folks here don't get movie references from before 1985.

Posted by: Bertram Cabot Jr. at November 03, 2015 01:38 PM (FkBIv)

190 Funny. Last night on "Special Report" Mara Liasson said she thought the demands were very reasonable.

I won't have a definite opinion until I hear from Shep on the issue.

Posted by: Cicero (@cicero) at November 03, 2015 01:38 PM (8ZskC)

191 Our standard of living as improved over the past 30-40 years as manufacturing left the country. That doesn't mean everyone is better off, but at a macro level we are better off with less manufacturing.

Really? 94M people out of work and you think we're better off without manufacturing? You're the one who needs to do some studying.

Posted by: BackwardsBoy at November 03, 2015 01:39 PM (LUgeY)

192 Whether or not he can change a tire is irrelevant. The article is right, we glorify manufacturing jobs and it makes no sense, as he outlined very well.
Posted by: Monsieur Mew Mew at November 03, 2015 01:09 PM (0LHZx)

It makes no sense. A country that doesn't make anything is a doormat. People "glorify" manufacturing because manufacturing is tangible. Marketing, lawyers, and finance play an important part of an economy but they aren't sufficient for an economy unless you are the equivalent of a Singapore city-state which only exists at the forbearance of others.

His article confuses the need for a country to make things and that automation reduces the number of people needed to make those items.

Posted by: WOPR at November 03, 2015 01:39 PM (hstc4)

193 They took the idols and smashed them, the ~~Fairbankses~~ Bushes, the ~~Gilberts~~ Rockefellers, the ~~Valentinos~~ Boehners! And who've we got now? Some nobodies!

Posted by: norma jebmond at November 03, 2015 01:40 PM (HbSdt)

194 We will not be bound by sewers of sock.

Posted by: Bertram Cabot Jr. at November 03, 2015 01:40 PM (FkBIv)

195 How many Spokesweasels are in the Failure Theater tour bus. Posted by: DaveA at November 03, 2015 01:38 PM

Time for a reboot of a Mothers of Invention Golden Oldie: Spokesweasels Ripped My Flesh....

Posted by: MrScribbler at November 03, 2015 01:40 PM (qiCMH)

196 This is why an Article V Convention would fail.

And then the clear majority of functioning states would reject it.
If you start shooting without one it's just murder.

Posted by: DaveA at November 03, 2015 01:40 PM (DL2i+)

197 I love how people who never spent more then an hour, if that, in a factory know 'all there is to know'. No they don't, they're fucking clueless.

All the people lined up for SSDI now and bankrupting the system? I used to hire them and find something useful for them to do. The nearly blind, the lame, the deaf, the not too smart. Individually, on paper, we looked pretty pathetic. But at the end of the day tractor trailers were picking up our product and shipping it all over the country.

Posted by: se pa moron at November 03, 2015 01:40 PM (7v/r5)

198 By sending our manufacturing overseas we've given our country and our children up as hostages to fortune.

We are at the mercy of any power strong enough and ruthless enough to enforce their will upon us. We have few ways to fight back on a large enough scale.

It is thinking like yours that has precipitated the last 3 world wars.

Posted by: Bitter Clinger and All That at November 03, 2015 01:38 PM (Xo1Rt)

__________

Compare the median income of 1970, 1980, 1990, 2000 and 2010. Do you see a trend? Every decade is has increased, substantially. Now super impose that data on a chart of manufacturing jobs 1970-2010. You will see a very direct correlation between an increase in income and a decrease in manufacturing jobs.

But hey why let pesky data get in the way of a good populist rant?

Posted by: Monsieur Mew Mew at November 03, 2015 01:40 PM (0LHZx)

199 that was an observation about the movie. Everyone in flyover country is stupid, crazy or both.

I didn't get that feel at all from the film. Fargo was a noir set in modern times, and all noir films are filled with people making really bad choices, crazy people, and strange encounters. Ultimately I loved how the seemingly bumbling and dull cop was ultimately really good at her job and smart. She ran into some real characters along the way but they were so fun and interesting I didn't mind.

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at November 03, 2015 01:40 PM (39g3+)

200 Well, at least we have the consolation of Lyin Brian Williams being shut out of the whole Trump show and primaries. You know he is sitting home sad that he doesn't get to interview Trump and outTrump Trump with all his made up bullshit hero fantasies

Posted by: L, Elle at November 03, 2015 01:41 PM (FTf+m)

201 In the rarified Moo Moo universe, all workers sit in front of powerful workstations tapping out complex new inventions for production by 3D printing while wearing khakis and polo shirts.

Posted by: Cicero (@cicero) at November 03, 2015 01:41 PM (8ZskC)

202 Whew! That wasn't as bad as I expected from the GOP. Here is what I was dreading:

Trump: Must have 2 full cans of Aqua Net and self spray tanner in his dressing room.

Rubio: Plenty of bottled water

Bush: A weather vane to tell which way the wind is blowing.

Kasich: Lots of sugary sweets, hankerchiefs for the flop sweat, and a blood pressure cuff.

Christie: Playtex's Super-Girdle 600X

Fiorina: A picture in her dressing room of the members of the View with plenty of darts.

Carson: Play soothing meditative tapes so he doesn't have to put a cap in anyone's ass.

Posted by: Cheri at November 03, 2015 01:41 PM (ylAck)

203 I'd rather live in a country where software engineers make $100K and not in a country where sock sewers make $2K (if they're lucky).

...said the guy who can't do basic math.

Posted by: BackwardsBoy at November 03, 2015 01:41 PM (LUgeY)

204 60 Me: I'm not sure if I can vote for this Trump guy.
GOP: Ya sure? Here's our latest example of dickless incompetence.

threadwinner

Posted by: Dark Helmet at November 03, 2015 01:41 PM (yvwr7)

205 I'm told that the folks here don't get movie references from before 1985.
I hate to think where that puts me. I could be Jebmond's father.

Posted by: zombie cecil b. demille at November 03, 2015 01:42 PM (HbSdt)

206 Ivanka has Huuuuuuuge ....

tracts of land

(I denounce myself)

Posted by: Ignoramus at November 03, 2015 01:42 PM (r1fLd)

207 Posted by: Monsieur Mew Mew at November 03, 2015 01:38 PM (0LHZx)

Aren't you kind of forgetting the 50 million people that have given up looking for work?

They used to be employed. They used to bring in taxes. they used to be an asset.

Now they're a liability and a drag on the economy.

Posted by: Bitter Clinger and All That at November 03, 2015 01:42 PM (Xo1Rt)

208 Did Lindsey Graham demand that candidates be allowed to access the NBC restrooms consistent with their gender identity?

Posted by: Bruce Boehner at November 03, 2015 01:43 PM (E5UB0)

209 It makes no sense. A country that doesn't make anything is a doormat. People "glorify" manufacturing because manufacturing is tangible. Marketing, lawyers, and finance play an important part of an economy but they aren't sufficient for an economy unless you are the equivalent of a Singapore city-state which only exists at the forbearance of others.

His article confuses the need for a country to make things and that automation reduces the number of people needed to make those items.
Posted by: WOPR at November 03, 2015 01:39 PM (hstc4)

__________

He never said we should have NO manufacturing. What he said is we shouldn't freak out over low-skill work going oversea and b) we shouldn't glorify manufacturing over other professions.

But of course from that everyone here understood the article to say we should destroy every single job that requires manual work because manual work is awful horrible and awful.

The attitude here is very backward and provincial

Posted by: Monsieur Mew Mew at November 03, 2015 01:43 PM (0LHZx)

210 177 165 The premise is that rich countries don't and should NOT be in the low skill manufacturing business. Textiles should be left to the 3rd world.

Sooo, you're against a diversity of opportunities for people of various capability.

How elitist of you.
Posted by: BackwardsBoy at November 03, 2015 01:31 PM (LUgeY)

________

That's not what I said and you know it. The labor value added to make a $3 pair of socks is a a few pennies. That's why $3 socks are made in Vietnam or Bangladesh and not in Ohio.
Posted by: Monsieur Mew Mew at November 03, 2015 01:35 PM (0LHZx)

Socks made by Hanes in The USA are sold at less than $2 per pair you ignorant ass. You were exposed on your idiocy about this in the past.

Posted by: Buzzion at November 03, 2015 01:43 PM (K9rPA)

211 I'm told that the folks here don't get movie references from before 1985.
Posted by: Bertram Cabot Jr.
----------------------------------------------------------
I had to bing that. But I know that character, because Carole Burnett used to mock her on her show.

Posted by: Bruce Boehner at November 03, 2015 01:44 PM (E5UB0)

212 If you start shooting without one it's just murder.

Or revolution. Like how the country formed. Is revolution against a non-evil tyranny justified and moral though? That's the thorny question.

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at November 03, 2015 01:44 PM (39g3+)

213 One day we'll have an entire national economy based on people selling massages to each other.

Posted by: Cicero (@cicero) at November 03, 2015 01:44 PM (8ZskC)

214 Heh, miss me yet?

Posted by: Mikey Mike Steele at November 03, 2015 01:44 PM (yvwr7)

215 The attitude here is very backward and provincial

And it positively reeks of trueblue so-con purity!

Posted by: mini-moo at November 03, 2015 01:44 PM (326rv)

216 And international shipping is a very big and very weak link.

I'd worry more about International Banking, than the shipping part.

Everything China makes for us ... India, Brazil, and ... can do a well. With a few very specific items that need some intervention to cure: high voltage transformers, GaN seeds, a few others I won't mention on the intertubes.

Posted by: Jean at November 03, 2015 01:45 PM (ztOda)

217 And we don't do that stuff as much as we used to. It's all done overseas. Far away.
-------------------

A friend of mine showed me a fairly complex clutch mechanism, used in a commercial slitter machine. All steel, some hardened parts, springs etc.

It probably weighed about 5 lbs., was finely finished. Beautiful, a work of art, really.

"Where do you think it is made", he asked. Expecting the worst, I guessed China. "Nope", he says, "Turkey". I asked the cost., expecting at least $100.00

No, $15.00

Posted by: Mike Hammer, etc., etc. at November 03, 2015 01:45 PM (9mTYi)

218 Unbelievable. The candidates were already telling the RNC to get stuffed, hence the pretend effort. I hope this gets a full round of something along the lines of "Oh, please just go fuck yourselves" from them.

Not a big Trump fan so I didn't think, much of it when I read he'd bagged on the debates confab but yeah, good call. I hope the candidates get back to where they were in the first 72 hours post-debate and leave the RNC out of it.

Posted by: TJ Camper at November 03, 2015 01:45 PM (BipIp)

219 I didn't get that feel at all from the film. Fargo was a noir set in modern times, and all noir films are filled with people making really bad choices, crazy people, and strange encounters. Ultimately I loved how the seemingly bumbling and dull cop was ultimately really good at her job and smart. She ran into some real characters along the way but they were so fun and interesting I didn't mind.
Posted by: Christopher Taylor at November 03, 2015 01:40 PM (39g3+)

---------------

And they really do talk that way. Agree. I enjoyed the movie too.

Posted by: Soona at November 03, 2015 01:45 PM (Fmupd)

220 *let me spray some Troll Be Gone around*

Posted by: Bitter Clinger and All That at November 03, 2015 01:45 PM (Xo1Rt)

221 Mew Mew is grateful for foreign-made ladders that allow him to get on his high horse.

Posted by: Pappy O'Daniel at November 03, 2015 01:45 PM (oVJmc)

222 The attitude here is very backward and provincial

Please to be using your Hot Air button then. You've proven beyond any reasonable doubt that you don't know what you're talking about when it comes to manufacturing and economics.

You're becoming quite tiresome.

Posted by: BackwardsBoy at November 03, 2015 01:46 PM (LUgeY)

223 The premise is that rich countries don't and should NOT be in the low skill manufacturing business. Textiles should be left to the 3rd world.

It seems inevitable that this happens, as countries become richer and more lazy but demand more. Fewer and fewer people are willing to do the work for the actual value of their labor.

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at November 03, 2015 01:46 PM (39g3+)

224 187: "I'd rather live in a country where software engineers make $100K and not in a country where sock sewers make $2K (if they're lucky)."

The problem with this idea is that those software engineers are no longer making $100k, and they aren't from our country.

By handing off our manufacturing capacity over to countries that are NOT our friends, we place ourselves at their mercy.

Your model only works so long as they are willing to sell to us. We used to hold the threat of embargo over other's heads as a lever of power. We have now given up that power, and the hands on the lever are no longer our own.

Posted by: Azenogoth (Freedom or Fire) at November 03, 2015 01:47 PM (z/vX9)

225 Moo Moo's right. We don't need two cars, we have a car. Not one of those cheap new things made of chromium and spit, an Isotta-Fraschini. Have you ever heard of Isotta-Fraschini? All handmade. Cost me $28,000.

Posted by: norma jebmond at November 03, 2015 01:47 PM (HbSdt)

226 *let me spray some Troll Be Gone around* Posted by: Bitter Clinger and All That at November 03, 2015 01:45 PM

* gets teh Clinger a nice glass of TruMoo *

Posted by: MrScribbler at November 03, 2015 01:47 PM (qiCMH)

227 One day we'll have an entire national economy based on people selling massages to each other.
Posted by: Cicero
--------------------

Looking at one of the ubiquitous tall buildings in Atlanta, I asked a friend WTH he thought people were doing in there.

His reply? "Sitting at desks, selling software to each other."

Posted by: Mike Hammer, etc., etc. at November 03, 2015 01:47 PM (9mTYi)

228 We demand stools so we look taller!
Posted by: Marco Rubio

Posted by: Turd Ferguson at November 03, 2015 01:48 PM (Mn2TM)

229 My grandma made a living sewing socks. I have an iron sock form that she took with her when she left the Bear Brand. She gave an honest day's work for an honest day's pay. Don't be bad mouthing people who sew socks.

Posted by: grammie winger, Revelation 22 at November 03, 2015 01:48 PM (dFi94)

230 Or revolution. Like how the country formed. Is revolution against a non-evil tyranny justified and moral though? That's the thorny question.

Tryanny is tyranny. Evil is a shade.

Posted by: rickb223 at November 03, 2015 01:48 PM (ksPsw)

231 Compare the median income of 1970, 1980, 1990, 2000 and 2010. Do you see a trend? Every decade is has increased, substantially. Now super impose that data on a chart of manufacturing jobs 1970-2010. You will see a very direct correlation between an increase in income and a decrease in manufacturing jobs.

But hey why let pesky data get in the way of a good populist rant?
Posted by: Monsieur Mew Mew

Then superimpose a chart of the cost of money/buying power/inflation ... and realize your point is meaningless.

Posted by: Jean at November 03, 2015 01:48 PM (ztOda)

232 I don't get why the RNC (backed up by the candidates, or the otehr way around), doesn't just have a debate where the RNC picks some BORING questioner and says to the nets, WE will charge you x$ to broadcast it.

Posted by: blaster at November 03, 2015 01:48 PM (2Ocf1)

233 I am enjoying the FX series Fargo. Interesting, a little/lot gory, and great characters.

Posted by: Cheri at November 03, 2015 01:49 PM (ylAck)

234 In the end moo moo will troll you guys incessantly on this. He's of the Sid Blumenthal/Bill Clinton stripe that will never admit that giving China permanent most favored trade status was worthy of Benedict Arnold status.

I'm sure he's fine with putting Mrs Bill Clinton back in the White House for another go round of fucking American workers.

Posted by: se pa moron at November 03, 2015 01:49 PM (7v/r5)

235 It seems inevitable that this happens, as countries become richer and more lazy but demand more. Fewer and fewer people are willing to do the work for the actual value of their labor.
Posted by: Christopher Taylor
------------

The deuce, you say!

Posted by: Roman Empire at November 03, 2015 01:49 PM (9mTYi)

236 Most socks today get spun out by machines. Human beings barely enter into it.

Posted by: Pappy O'Daniel at November 03, 2015 01:49 PM (oVJmc)

237 This tree self identifies as female.

http://tinyurl.com/q4pet5z

Posted by: The Great White Snark at November 03, 2015 01:49 PM (XUKZU)

238 Compare the median income of 1970, 1980, 1990, 2000 and 2010. Do you see a trend? Every decade is has increased, substantially. Now super impose that data on a chart of manufacturing jobs 1970-2010. You will see a very direct correlation between an increase in income and a decrease in manufacturing jobs.

But hey why let pesky data get in the way of a good populist rant?

Posted by: Monsieur Mew Mew at November 03, 2015 01:40 PM (0LHZx)

++++

Correlation does not imply causation
Correlation does not imply causation
Correlation does not imply causation
Correlation does not imply causation

It cannot be said enough.

Posted by: Anon Y. Mous at November 03, 2015 01:50 PM (IN7k+)

239 Yo mama sews socks in heck!

Posted by: little girl possessed by moo-moo at November 03, 2015 01:50 PM (HbSdt)

240 "On the same program, Van Jones was passed off as the head of some NGO, with no 'Marxist' before his description."

How about "Former Obama Administration Official Fired For Extreme 9/11 Truther Stance"?

Posted by: torquewrench at November 03, 2015 01:50 PM (noWW6)

241 Aren't you kind of forgetting the 50 million people that have given up looking for work?

They used to be employed. They used to bring in taxes. they used to be an asset.

Now they're a liability and a drag on the economy.

Posted by: Bitter Clinger and All That at November 03, 2015 01:42 PM (Xo1Rt)

__________

That's not due to a lack of jobs, it's due to a very generous welfare state that makes it possible to not work for decades and still live a solid middle class life.

Posted by: Monsieur Mew Mew at November 03, 2015 01:50 PM (0LHZx)

242 I see that with the changing of the month moo moo has switched from his "the economy is bad" to "the economy is wonderful" again.

Posted by: Buzzion at November 03, 2015 01:50 PM (z/Ubi)

243 Ivanka has Huuuuuuuge ....

tracts of land
(I denounce myself)
Posted by: Ignoramus at November 03, 2015 01:42 PM

No worries! They're yuuge! Fabulous! They're the best anywhere! They're Trump's for goodness sake, they're the best!

Posted by: D. Trump at November 03, 2015 01:50 PM (7d8Ef)

244 Economies of scale and automation make some manufacturing still viable in advanced countries.

It all depends on what you're making and who your customer is.

These all or nothing arguments are so odd and assbergery.

Posted by: Max Power at November 03, 2015 01:51 PM (QCc6B)

245 Yo mama sews socks in heck!
Posted by: little girl possessed by moo-moo

I also thought of that SNL episode.

Posted by: Bertram Cabot Jr. at November 03, 2015 01:51 PM (FkBIv)

246 Cretins.

Posted by: thespellingpolice at November 03, 2015 01:51 PM (miAG4)

247 Honey, it's just not fair. How come I'm affected by global warming but Paolo isn't?

Posted by: Modern Man, discussing libido with his wife at November 03, 2015 01:51 PM (E5UB0)

248 Correlation does not imply causation

It does now.

Posted by: Paris COP15 at November 03, 2015 01:51 PM (ztOda)

249 I do like how technology and modern connectivity is turning the world into a larger marketplace. I love that I can get products from Spain and Zimbabwe over the internet, and I love that more lucrative and complex jobs are showing up around the world. I don't care if China makes lots of stuff, good for them, i hope it pulls them out of the dictatorship and communism they've suffered under.

That doesn't mean its good that the US produces almost nothing of actual, physical existance any longer. We make lots of digital stuff - world leader in apps, movies, and computer games - but one flare from the sun and they're useless. We need other stuff to drive the economy, the stuff activists and unions have destroyed. Timber, cotton, rice, textiles, steel, etc. That's how the US built its self into the most powerful, richest nation in the history of the world. And now? I am unconvinced that abandoning all that is good for the long term.

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at November 03, 2015 01:51 PM (39g3+)

250 It sticks the shovel in the dirt.

Posted by: BackwardsBoy at November 03, 2015 01:52 PM (LUgeY)

251 I also thought of that SNL episode.
The bed is on my foot! The bed is on my foot!

Posted by: father ace of spades at November 03, 2015 01:52 PM (HbSdt)

252 People complain about trolls, but they keep giving trolls what they want.

Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of the Sith at November 03, 2015 01:52 PM (bLnSU)

253 All they asked for was a 2 hr time limit, opening and closing statements ---- both of which they got last time thanks to Trump and Carson???? And better air conditioning????

This Ginsburg guy is a total tool and useless idiot. I'm glad Trump is bypassing all of this and negotiating on his own.

Posted by: L, Elle at November 03, 2015 01:52 PM (FTf+m)

254 It's weird watching people on the same team fight about economics. Harsanyi is right, we shouldn't glorify manufacturing. When it comes to international trade it's MUCH better to trade intangible goods that Americans are REALLY good at (productivity software, stupid shit like facebook, etc) for tangible goods. We're really good at high tech manufacturing (like aerospace) but that doesn't mean we should make the stupid crap that can be made in China (although not much longer, costs are getting too high to manufacture in China and sell in America that that will change soon.) In a lot of minor ways (meaning I'm not calling you stupid if you disagree with me it's okay if you disagree), the right has some weird thoughts on economics (but still 90% correct compared to libs), and this manufacturing issue is one of them with the other being our love affair with the gold standard. Gold standard is gone and shouldn't come back.

Posted by: Brenden at November 03, 2015 01:52 PM (wa+SP)

255 Maybe the GOP can bring in John Boehner to help with the debate negotiations.

Posted by: Roy at November 03, 2015 01:53 PM (VndSC)

256 ...all I want to know is why can't I buy a light bulb that doesn't burn out in four or five months.

Is that asking too much? The original Edison carbon filament incandescent will burn for a hundred years or more.

Posted by: Hayfield Volkovski at November 03, 2015 01:53 PM (tHYMW)

257 242 I see that with the changing of the month moo moo has switched from his "the economy is bad" to "the economy is wonderful" again.
Posted by: Buzzion at November 03, 2015 01:50 PM (z/Ubi)

____________

I've never said the economy is bad. Just like I said a couple of months ago that the stock market was fine and the freak out over a small correction was crazy. And what do you know, I was right...as always.

Posted by: Monsieur Mew Mew at November 03, 2015 01:53 PM (0LHZx)

258 201 In the rarified Moo Moo universe, all workers sit in front of powerful workstations tapping out complex new inventions for production by 3D printing while wearing khakis and polo shirts.
Posted by: Cicero (@cicero) at November 03, 2015 01:41 PM (8ZskC)

-------------

And all the shirts are the same color. All their desks are neat and arranged exactly the same. Row after row after row of them.

Posted by: Soona at November 03, 2015 01:54 PM (Fmupd)

259 Doesn't the Art of the Deal teach these GOPe idiots not to telegraph your desires going into a negotiation.

Posted by: Jean at November 03, 2015 01:54 PM (ztOda)

260 That's not due to a lack of jobs, it's due to a very generous welfare state that makes it possible to not work for decades and still live a solid middle class life.

I'd say its a combination, sir. You're right that there are jobs, but its still a hirer's market - more people out needing jobs than slots open and available. Some businesses are starting to gear up and expand again, gambling that they can weather the future, but many are closing down still. I see it every time I go out shopping: more boarded up buildings, more closed businesses. I've seen three used car lots shut down in my town alone. That's got to be some kind of dire signal.

There are jobs that are being passed by, its true. But not 94 million worth.

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at November 03, 2015 01:54 PM (39g3+)

261 Anyone else see the segment/story/hit job on CNN about "new questions arising" (code for "old stuff we want to talk about but have no legit tie-in") about Jeb Bush's role in the 2000 election recount? Never heard the audio because I was in a food court, but I thought Jeb was hands-off and the Dems went after the state AG and Supreme Court. What are the Dems alleging this time? That Jeb made the ballot too hard for confused Florida seniors?

Posted by: pookysgirl at November 03, 2015 01:55 PM (K27gs)

262 Excatcly. And that's what we do more or less. We make 747s and "make" twitter and facebook and Amazon while the Chinese make trinkets. And that's a good thing.
Posted by: Monsieur Mew Mew at November 03, 2015 01:21 PM (0LHZx)

You are blindingly stupid. Twitter and Facebook are worthless marketing scams. And with Boeing you do realize that large parts of those jets are made overseas? And yeah, the Chinese make trinkets and electronics and cars and planes and some work for Boeing....... What masterminds like you forget is that competence at doing high level things often requires the ability to do low level things. And development/engineering follows where the manufacturing is.

Posted by: WOPR at November 03, 2015 01:55 PM (hstc4)

263
And all the shirts are the same color. All their desks are neat and arranged exactly the same. Row after row after row of them.

I worked in his office. I had to share half a desk with a guy through the wall. It was awful

Posted by: Jack Lint at November 03, 2015 01:55 PM (39g3+)

264 Hey, yeah I've noticed a distinct drop off in incandescent light bulb lifetimes in the last 3 years. WTF

Posted by: Jean at November 03, 2015 01:55 PM (ztOda)

265 Hey, yeah I've noticed a distinct drop off in incandescent light bulb lifetimes in the last 3 years. WTF

Posted by: Jean at November 03, 2015 01:55 PM (ztOda)

266 Yo mama sews socks in heck!

Posted by: little girl possessed by moo-moo at November 03, 2015 01:50 PM (HbSdt)
==============================

Inhaled some Diet Coke through my nose on that one. LOL

Posted by: grammie winger, Revelation 22 at November 03, 2015 01:56 PM (dFi94)

267 In a lot of minor ways (meaning I'm not calling you stupid if you disagree with me it's okay if you disagree), the right has some weird thoughts on economics (but still 90% correct compared to libs), and this manufacturing issue is one of them with the other being our love affair with the gold standard. Gold standard is gone and shouldn't come back.
Posted by: Brenden at November 03, 2015 01:52 PM (wa+SP)

-------------------------

I'd be willing to pay a marginally higher cost in towels and socks to employ more Americans in exchange for reduced welfare spending.

Posted by: Make America Great Again at November 03, 2015 01:56 PM (LXJ1e)

268 198: "Compare the median income...But hey why let pesky data get in the way of a good populist rant?"

The point you seem to be missing, is that you are only using one data point. Income.

What the rest of us are saying is that income is not the be all and end all of national health.

Maximizing quarterly profits at the expense of long term sustainability may work fine for Walmart.

But for a nation that has a significant population, security concerns, and cultural survival interests, this model of maximum profits uber alles cannot sustain a nation in a world of hostile powers.

Posted by: Azenogoth (Freedom or Fire) at November 03, 2015 01:56 PM (z/vX9)

269 Can we please talk about my decoration plans for the White House?

Wouldn't we like something a little flashier?

Maybe gold columns? Something classy.

Not the full Early Babylonian Whore House like my first wife's tastes, but something that will make Putin say--

"Wow!"

Posted by: Donald Trump at November 03, 2015 01:56 PM (mcm0N)

270 That doesn't mean its good that the US produces almost nothing of actual, physical existance any longer. We make lots of digital stuff - world leader in apps, movies, and computer games - but one flare from the sun and they're useless. We need other stuff to drive the economy, the stuff activists and unions have destroyed. Timber, cotton, rice, textiles, steel, etc. That's how the US built its self into the most powerful, richest nation in the history of the world. And now? I am unconvinced that abandoning all that is good for the long term.
Posted by: Christopher Taylor at November 03, 2015 01:51 PM (39g3+)

________

We also make jets, medical devices, high end electronics, lots of cars. In other words we make the expensive stuff and we buy the cheap stuff from China.

And that is a good thing.

Posted by: Monsieur Mew Mew at November 03, 2015 01:56 PM (0LHZx)

271 Row after row after row of them.
All in all
You're just another
Brick in the Moo

Posted by: brown floyd at November 03, 2015 01:56 PM (HbSdt)

272 I worked in a Moo Moo office, too. It was so dreary I sacrificed myself to a volcano, even though I had Meg Ryan when she was super hot.

Posted by: Joe vs the Volcano at November 03, 2015 01:56 PM (39g3+)

273 Speaking of old shows, didja catch the Munsters autotune show? It was on COSI. they took an old episode of The Munster, used autotune to make it a rock opera, and added a bunch of other psychedelic stuff. Not something I'd want to watch every day but it was weird enough to keep my attention for a half hour.

Posted by: The Great White Snark at November 03, 2015 01:56 PM (XUKZU)

274 There are jobs that are being passed by, its true. But not 94 million worth.

TFG's economy is in far worse shape than we're being told about today. If the MFM were to dare bring up the subject, the Dims would be toast.

BTW, for the first time in our nation's history, more businesses are failing than being started. Thanks, Dims. Helluva job you're doing there.

Posted by: BackwardsBoy at November 03, 2015 01:57 PM (LUgeY)

275 *Gets out the Extra Strength Troll Be Gone and sprays it around*

What can you say to an idiot?

They won't understand you or accept your points but will argue about it anyway.

So the best thing is to just walk away.

Leave them standing there talking to themselves because they believe they're smarter than everyone else about anything at all.

Just like Obama. A classic case of Know It All Syndrome. He's convinced he's smart even though the facts prove otherwise.

When forced to face his failures he claims they're someone else's fault or the premise is incorrect or he just found out about it himself.

He's never wrong AND never responsible. We've all met this sort before. Quick to claim credit when something succeeds and quick to foist the blame onto anyone else but himself when things fail.

And He always has an excuse or a counter argument. If losing they will change the context or start arguing a different point. Ignoring the ones they've failed to prove.

*sprays more Extra Strength Troll Be Gone around*

Posted by: Bitter Clinger and All That at November 03, 2015 01:57 PM (Xo1Rt)

276 177

177 Pennies profit on sox?

Why limit yourself to pennies. Brand your sox as helping the poor foreign worker, kick back a token payment to the foreign worker (tax deductible donation to the charity run by the foreign government who keeps the workers pressganged) and the gullible will pay a premium for the honor of buying to assuage their guilt. Now you are boosting profit using your consumers warped notions. That is value added as practiced today. Same sox, same production channel, same labor cost, but you get more profit.

Posted by: Man from Wazzustan at November 03, 2015 01:57 PM (uPxUo)

277 This tree self identifies as female.

http://tinyurl.com/q4pet5z

Posted by: The Great White Snark

-------------------------------------------------------------

Caitlyn Jenner declares: I am the new normal. Within a few months, male trees start changing into female trees.

Coincidence? I think not.

Posted by: Bruce Boehner at November 03, 2015 01:57 PM (E5UB0)

278 The point you seem to be missing, is that you are only using one data point. Income.

What the rest of us are saying is that income is not the be all and end all of national health.

Maximizing quarterly profits at the expense of long term sustainability may work fine for Walmart.

But for a nation that has a significant population, security concerns, and cultural survival interests, this model of maximum profits uber alles cannot sustain a nation in a world of hostile powers.
Posted by: Azenogoth (Freedom or Fire) at November 03, 2015 01:56 PM (z/vX9)

________

Now you're changing the rules. The argument is that we lost all these jobs and it made everyone poorer. I'm showing that the exact opposite happened. The country as a whole is richer and the median income for individuals is also higher. This isn't about maximizing quarterly profits, it's about making Americans better off.

Posted by: Monsieur Mew Mew at November 03, 2015 01:58 PM (0LHZx)

279 The MSM does few favors, even for itself. Asking questions that appear friendly can get people to talk beyond the script and tempt real answers that might truly enlighten the public about the nature of the candidates.

When everybody expects a smear job, the politicians become overly protective of the truth.

The MSM, in other words, is doing it wrong, even on its own Leftist priorities.

Posted by: Nom de Blog at November 03, 2015 01:58 PM (riOvG)

280 238 Compare the median income of 1970, 1980, 1990, 2000 and 2010. Do you see a trend? Every decade is has increased, substantially. Now super impose that data on a chart of manufacturing jobs 1970-2010. You will see a very direct correlation between an increase in income and a decrease in manufacturing jobs.

But hey why let pesky data get in the way of a good populist rant?

Posted by: Monsieur Mew Mew at November 03, 2015 01:40 PM (0LHZx)

----------------------
Bull.

Show the data.

Posted by: Make America Great Again at November 03, 2015 01:59 PM (LXJ1e)

281 Now I'm also thinking--maybe some gold lame over the top of the Capitol Dome in time for my Inauguration.

Something to liven it up a little bit.

Don't we think--come on--you have to admit--all that white is a little dreary.

Posted by: Donald Trump at November 03, 2015 01:59 PM (mcm0N)

282 The gold standard thing just baffles me. Gold only has a value that the market sets it at; there's no absolute, objective gold value that God declares. Its just as flexible as any other item in the market. Which makes it no different than the present dollar: its worth what people think its worth; the dollar has the value the market assesses it to have. So going to the gold standard just makes the dollar's value subject to a different thing the market gives a value to, not some superior and solid truth.

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at November 03, 2015 01:59 PM (39g3+)

283 Like how the country formed.

Hello!

Posted by: Declaration of Independence at November 03, 2015 02:00 PM (DL2i+)

284 My grandma made a living sewing socks. I have an iron sock form that she took with her when she left the Bear Brand.

So THAT'S where our left-foot sock form went.

Posted by: Bear Brand Socks -- "Two Right Foot Socks At Half The Price of a Regular Pair" at November 03, 2015 02:01 PM (8ZskC)

285 Time to go walk to the polls for locals, at least the weathers nice.

Posted by: DaveA at November 03, 2015 02:01 PM (DL2i+)

286 I wonder if some of the "permanant underclass", the hard core unemployed, would be better off if we encouraged more manufacturing here. There are people who would rather work and have a place to go everyday than take a welfare check

Posted by: ThunderB, Money Will Not Overcome Voter Rejection at November 03, 2015 02:02 PM (zOTsN)

287 A debate is about speeches -- yes, pre-written speeches. That's what debates have always been. The idea that it has to be some kind of spontaneous q-and-a session with reporters -- at reporters' initiative, according to reporters' interests and agendas -- concedes the game from the start.

The gold standard Lincoln-Douglas debates were simply this: Speaker #1 spoke for 1 hour. Speaker #2 spoke for 90 minutes. Speaker #1 "replied" for 30 minutes.

That's a "debate".

Posted by: AmishDude at November 03, 2015 02:02 PM (Xd2w5)

288 @282
Gold can't be 'manufactured' the way computer entries in an account can be.

Gold can't be printed the way a paper dollar can be printed.

It was one of the complaints in the early history of the US, there wasn't enough 'specie' circulating in the economy, until silver was discovered out west, and then inflation took off when silver dollars were dumped into the economy faster than the economy could grow.

Posted by: Hayfield Volkovski at November 03, 2015 02:03 PM (tHYMW)

289 276 177
and the gullible will pay a premium

Posted by: Man from Wazzustan
______________________________

Uh, oh, uh. What was that you were saying again?

Posted by: Organic Produce, Waking Up at November 03, 2015 02:03 PM (3GAnN)

290 Speaking of the permanent underclass, Hillary! met with the Gentle Giant's mom.

Posted by: The Great White Snark at November 03, 2015 02:03 PM (XUKZU)

291 Speaking of students who give sass to the teacher, have people seen this: http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=581_1446436696

Posted by: AmishDude at November 03, 2015 02:04 PM (Xd2w5)

292 Mini-moo is genius.

Look at me!

I decreased domestic investment, failed to modernize, adopted a mediocre educational system and lived off of financial markets and foreign investments and see how I turned out?

Posted by: Britain at November 03, 2015 02:04 PM (326rv)

293 Speaking of old shows, didja catch the Munsters autotune show? It was on COSI. they took an old episode of The Munster, used autotune to make it a rock opera, and added a bunch of other psychedelic stuff. Not something I'd want to watch every day but it was weird enough to keep my attention for a half hour.
Posted by: The Great White Snark at November 03, 2015 01:56 PM (XUKZU)

*************

Aren't you shocked that I actually read your comment?

But it finally dawned on me who Ted Cruz looks like--Grandpa Munster.

Now I know Ted wants to be my VP candidate but I'm still waiting for his birth certificate, and his mother's.

He was born in Canada you know, they're pretty liberal up there.

Posted by: Donald Trump at November 03, 2015 02:04 PM (mcm0N)

294 Speaking of the permanent underclass, Hillary! met with the Gentle Giant's mom.

#BlackVotesMatter

Posted by: Cicero (@cicero) at November 03, 2015 02:04 PM (8ZskC)

295 FAIR TRADE SOCKS! I could figure out a racket selling fair trade
socks. First, I'm gonna need me some socks. Okay, make a stop at
WalMart. Second, I'm going to need an emaciated woman swathed in a
sheet. I could make my daughter do that - she weighs like 95
pounds.....Then, a beggar on the street in front of some kind of
stall....That's where the four-year old comes in.

This could totally work.

Posted by: grammie winger, Revelation 22 at November 03, 2015 02:05 PM (dFi94)

296 I'd be willing to pay a marginally higher cost in towels and socks to employ more Americans in exchange for reduced welfare spending.

Posted by: Make America Great Again at November 03, 2015 01:56 PM (LXJ1e)

________

No you wouldn't.

A perfect example is airlines. People whine all the time about how they want to go back to the "old days". But they never want to pay for it. That's why all airlines now are basically Southwest, ie no frills.

People always vote with their wallet.

Posted by: Monsieur Mew Mew at November 03, 2015 02:05 PM (0LHZx)

297 Real, seasonally adjusted median income:
2000 $57, 772
2016 $56, 279 (projected) less than that now

China permanent most favored trade status inked in final year of Clinton presidency in 1999.

Posted by: se pa moron at November 03, 2015 02:05 PM (7v/r5)

298 So the GOP stepped in it again...

Posted by: donna at November 03, 2015 02:05 PM (/dSsq)

299 The MSM does few favors, even for itself. Asking questions that appear friendly can get people to talk beyond the script and tempt real answers that might truly enlighten the public about the nature of the candidates.

Well two things.

First, they don't want the public to get to know GOP candidates, because they know unless they push full court all day long, every day of the week for Democrats, this country still leans Republican. Hence the "15%" quote from that Newsweek guy - they know the nation won't vote for Dems without being lied to. So they use every opportunity to destroy the GOP, not giving them a chance, because they know they have to.

Second, they view the Republican candidates as not just evil and horrible enemies -- they are the allies vs Hitler -- but they consider the entire idea of the debates a joke, and cannot help themselves. Republicans are doomed to fail, the Democrat will win, this is a farce, etc. So they go in like John Bolton with the UN, its at best a stupid joke, and likely evil so they have zero respects to give.

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at November 03, 2015 02:06 PM (39g3+)

300 Why limit yourself to pennies. Brand your sox as helping the poor foreign worker, kick back a token payment to the foreign worker (tax deductible donation to the charity run by the foreign government who keeps the workers pressganged) and the gullible will pay a premium for the honor of buying to assuage their guilt. Now you are boosting profit using your consumers warped notions. That is value added as practiced today. Same sox, same production channel, same labor cost, but you get more profit.
Posted by: Man from Wazzustan at November 03, 2015 01:57 PM (uPxUo)
_________

Actually ran into this when youngest kid had to buy 'Toms' shoes for some event. That is their marketing strategy. I thought it was a ripoff, but the sorority girls were all atwitter. As far as I am concerned, if I have to wear someone's brand, it should be a heck of a lot cheaper.

Posted by: mustbequantum at November 03, 2015 02:06 PM (MIKMs)

301 270:"In other words we make the expensive stuff..."

Who is going to buy our expensive stuff?

Posted by: Azenogoth (Freedom or Fire) at November 03, 2015 02:06 PM (z/vX9)

302
This in a nutshell, is the problem with establishment republicans. They don't really want to change anything. Why the don't want to change anything is debatable, I guess.Either because stupid, or there is only one uniparty for real.

They should not be sending letters, they should be negotiating with Live Stream, or Hulu or Amazon.com, or Youtube.

Don't negotiate.Crush your enemies. See them driven before you and hear thelamentations of their women. After all that, then you negotiate.

The people who actually want to watch the debate live will find it, and there will be people who will watch it NOT live on the internet weeks later. Just do it already. You'll only have to do it once. Then you'll be calling your own shots.

Posted by: simplemind at November 03, 2015 02:07 PM (JTwsP)

303 Compare the median income of 1970, 1980, 1990, 2000 and 2010. Do you see a trend?

I couldn't go back that far but income adjusted for inflation, in 2014 dollars, is:
1990: $52,600
2000: $57,700
2010: $53,500

Posted by: AmishDude at November 03, 2015 02:08 PM (Xd2w5)

304 Okay, it's been nice talking at you people, but I have to go.

Melanka is nagging me.

Posted by: Donald Trump at November 03, 2015 02:08 PM (mcm0N)

305 So THAT'S where our left-foot sock form went.

Posted by: Bear Brand Socks -- "Two Right Foot Socks At Half The Price of a Regular Pair" at November 03, 2015 02:01 PM (8ZskC)
=====================================

LOL!

Posted by: grammie winger, Revelation 22 at November 03, 2015 02:08 PM (dFi94)

306 OK, we're in the 300s comment-wise, so I can go OT.

A new thread I just uploaded at PJM:

http://pjmedia.com/tatler/2015/11/03/i-predicted-europes-future-and-now-im-depressed/

"I Predicted Europe’s Future - and Now I’m Depressed

Back in 2004, eleven long years ago, I made a satirical map of what Europe might look like in 2015, and posted the map on my site zombietime, along with a short satirical “news” article about how the EU was planning to intentionally hand the continent over to Muslim immigrants.

I had completely forgotten about this post (created on a whim one afternoon and uploaded as a joke), and in fact never even linked to it from my own home page, so that it became “orphaned” (unfindable by search engines) and lost to history.

The recent immigrant crisis in Europe jogged my memory and I suddenly had a vague recollection of my long-lost satirical article. After some searching I finally found the original, and was stunned at how eerily prescient it was.

Here’s the post as it still exists at zombietime; I repost it here in its entirety, for posterity..."

Posted by: zombie at November 03, 2015 02:08 PM (jBuUi)

307 FAIR TRADE SOCKS!

-
Just say no to blood socks.

Posted by: The Great White Snark at November 03, 2015 02:08 PM (XUKZU)

308 282 The gold standard thing just baffles me. Gold only has a value that the market sets it at; there's no absolute, objective gold value that God declares. Its just as flexible as any other item in the market. Which makes it no different than the present dollar: its worth what people think its worth; the dollar has the value the market assesses it to have. So going to the gold standard just makes the dollar's value subject to a different thing the market gives a value to, not some superior and solid truth.
Posted by: Christopher Taylor at November 03, 2015 01:59 PM (39g3+)

1) There is pretty much a fixed stock of gold, unlike paper money and electronic credits.

2) Gold is practically indestructible, unlike paper money and electronic credits

3) Let's try an experiment. Have the Fed mint all the gold they hold into enough coins so that every citizen gets 10 coins. Let's see what will win, paper or gold.

Posted by: Make America Great Again at November 03, 2015 02:09 PM (LXJ1e)

309
The core problem with the GOP's inability to deal with the MSM at any level, in any context, lies with its reliance upon highly paid media consultants, supposed experts who are either incredibly inept or who are covert operatives for the Democratic Party, doing it for ideological reasons. Doesn't matter either way, gross ineptitude orpolitical espionage,since the result is the same.

If Reince Priebus was a serious, intelligent leader, he would fire them all now, today. However, since the man is seemingly blissfully unaware the MSM is the agitprop organ of the progressive movement, it's highly unlikely the RNC will course-correct and become an effective message mover any time soon.

Posted by: troyriser at November 03, 2015 02:09 PM (WuTfJ)

310 We do manufacture quite a bit in this country.
However, we don't use as many people to do the manufacturing. Like in agriculture.

Posted by: Mikey NTH - Take A Cruz On Our Marco-Boats At The Outrage Outlet! at November 03, 2015 02:09 PM (hLRSq)

311 Posted by: zombie at November 03, 2015 02:08 PM (jBuUi)

Dammit, zombie, will you stop being right? Everything goes to shit when you're right!

Posted by: Insomniac at November 03, 2015 02:10 PM (2Ojst)

312 Our standard of living as improved over the past 30-40 years as manufacturing left the country. That doesn't mean everyone is better off, but at a macro level we are better off with less manufacturing.
Posted by: Monsieur Mew Mew at November 03, 2015 01:33 PM (0LHZx)

Living off the seed corn and past work. We might have more gadgets but I would take a somewhat lower standard of living for a country that actually made things again.

How much stew do you want for your birthright again Moo Moo?

Posted by: WOPR at November 03, 2015 02:11 PM (hstc4)

313 "I've noticed a distinct drop off in incandescent light bulb lifetimes in the last 3 years. WTF"

All be design, my lady.

Posted by: Ricardo Kill at November 03, 2015 02:11 PM (LA7Cm)

314 Am I the only one who thinks that CNBC anchor pictured above looks like a creepy cupie doll?

Posted by: Marcus T at November 03, 2015 02:11 PM (GGCsk)

315 As long as we have almost 50% of this country's citizens on a government handout program, manufacturing jobs will not come back. Why work for a living?

Posted by: Soona at November 03, 2015 02:11 PM (Fmupd)

316 I had completely forgotten about this post (created on a whim one afternoon and uploaded as a joke), and in fact never even linked to it from my own home page, so that it became 'orphaned' (unfindable by search engines) and lost to history.

The strangest thing is that they're doing it to themselves. I saw a dangerous future in the way they were treating Muslims, but nobody could have predicted them simply opening their doors to tens of millions of "refugees" over night. Its inconceivable.

And people still keep calling these guys "Syrian Refugees" when they're pouring out of every Muslim nation around the Mediterranean Sea.

Almost all of them claim to be 17, the huge, overwhelming majority are military-age young men. Its so idiotic.

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at November 03, 2015 02:13 PM (39g3+)

317 How much stew do you want for your birthright again Moo Moo?

Posted by: WOPR at November 03, 2015 02:11 PM (hstc4)
==========================================

I'm wondering if he knows the reference. Perhaps he does. That would be a pleasant surprise.

Posted by: grammie winger, Revelation 22 at November 03, 2015 02:13 PM (dFi94)

318 I would understand this latest capitulation if NBC were giving Priebus what he wants: puff Jeb/Rubio and demonize the others. But if they're also trying to embarrass the RINOs, I don't see what the GOPe is getting out of this. Maybe they are just stupid and wimpy.

Posted by: Bruce Boehner at November 03, 2015 02:13 PM (E5UB0)

319 1) There is pretty much a fixed stock of gold, unlike paper money and electronic credits.

2) Gold is practically indestructible, unlike paper money and electronic credits

3) Let's try an experiment. Have the Fed mint all the gold they hold into enough coins so that every citizen gets 10 coins. Let's see what will win, paper or gold.
Posted by: Make America Great Again at November 03, 2015 02:09 PM (LXJ1e)

______

#1 and #2 applies to silver as well. Yet gold is much more valuable than silver. Why? Because people perceive it as such, but there's no real reason for it. Gold is at its core no less or no more valuable than whatever someone says it's worth....kinda like money.

Posted by: Monsieur Mew Mew at November 03, 2015 02:13 PM (0LHZx)

320 I couldn't go back that far but income adjusted for inflation, in 2014 dollars, is: 1990: $52,600 2000: $57,700 2010: $53,500Posted by: AmishDude at November 03, 2015 02:08 PM (Xd2w5)

That's within a hundred dollars of what I came up with. Year 2, 000 seems to be the high point.Funny that.

In the next ten years 57, 000 factories closed in this country and about five million jobs in manufacturing disappeared.

But moo moo lies through his teeth like any Clinton sycophant would.

Posted by: se pa moron at November 03, 2015 02:14 PM (7v/r5)

321 Living off the seed corn and past work. We might have more gadgets but I would take a somewhat lower standard of living for a country that actually made things again.

Posted by: WOPR at November 03, 2015 02:11 PM (hstc4)

__________

And thankfully you are in a very small minority.

Posted by: Monsieur Mew Mew at November 03, 2015 02:14 PM (0LHZx)

322 We should draft zombie to be an ace coblogger.

Posted by: Max Power at November 03, 2015 02:14 PM (QCc6B)

323 Am I the only one who thinks that CNBC anchor pictured above looks like a creepy cupie doll?
Posted by: Marcus T
-----------------------------------------------------
Looks a bit asiatic to me. Rotherham girls, take care when you are around this man.

Posted by: Bruce Boehner at November 03, 2015 02:15 PM (E5UB0)

324 "As long as we have almost 50% of this country's citizens on a government handout program, manufacturing jobs will not come back. "

We're going to welfare ourselves to prosperity!

Oh, wait....

Posted by: Ricardo Kill at November 03, 2015 02:15 PM (LA7Cm)

325 Monsato corn, it's in the Purina Cow Chow.

Posted by: Donald Trump at November 03, 2015 02:16 PM (mcm0N)

326 295 Fair Trade Sox

Congratulations! You have taken your first step towards NGO status! Many tax breaks await you in the future!

Posted by: Man from Wazzustan at November 03, 2015 02:16 PM (uPxUo)

327 278: "Now you're changing the rules. The argument is that we lost all these jobs and it made everyone poorer."

That was not my argument, but then I came in late.

My contention is that the best interests of corporate profits are not necessarily the best interests of our Nation, which goes beyond financial wealth.

I tend to think that seeking maximum profit over any other consideration (also called unalloyed greed) is like any other sin. It should not be made against the law, but neither should it be promoted.

Corporatism is very efficient. But it comes at a cost.

Posted by: Azenogoth (Freedom or Fire) at November 03, 2015 02:17 PM (z/vX9)

328 No you wouldn't.

A perfect example is airlines. People whine all the time about how they want to go back to the "old days". But they never want to pay for it. That's why all airlines now are basically Southwest, ie no frills.

People always vote with their wallet.
Posted by: Monsieur Mew Mew at November 03, 2015 02:05 PM (0LHZx)

--------------------------------

Sure I would. If I see the reduction in Federal spending for welfare. No doubt.

Obviously, that is where changing the free trade agreements come in. Whether that is a 10% duty on imports, or whatever.

Posted by: Make America Great Again at November 03, 2015 02:18 PM (LXJ1e)

329 Well then I guess you guys will be totes voting for Bernie since he's all about "bringing manufacturing jobs back".

Have fun with that.

Posted by: Monsieur Mew Mew at November 03, 2015 02:18 PM (0LHZx)

330 Here's the problem with the thinking like Harsyani and some of youse guys defending that line of reasoning.

Yes.. let the Chinese make socks.. and stupid dollar store shit.

But take a walk through Home Depot or Lowes sometime..

$500 gas grills - made in China
$1800 refrigerators - made in South Korea
whole rows of power tools all made in Asia

This kind of shit can be made here.. we can automate the processes and do it with less workers, of course.. that is a given..

But all the parts and raw materials would come from here too, providing even more jobs.

Take a look at the "Made In" sticker next time you do a stroll through almost any store.

Posted by: Chi-Town Jerry at November 03, 2015 02:19 PM (so+oy)

331 63% of Democrats...want the 45th president to bridge differences in the country

...differences that the Democrats exacerbated with their radical, extremist behavior and rhetoric.

Let's try an experiment. Have the Fed mint all the gold they hold into enough coins so that every citizen gets 10 coins. Let's see what will win, paper or gold.

The fact that people value shiny gold more than printed cloth does not translate into making printed cloth seem more valuable when you claim it is attached to gold. In the end, its still only worth what people believe it to be.

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at November 03, 2015 02:19 PM (39g3+)

332 Zombie;

I don't know whether you should receive an accolade or a condemnation for that.

Truly prescient. But then we could see then that they were taking positions that are/were suicidal.

They have now found the limit that all charitable organizations eventually reach; the clients outnumber the donors and no one is helped.

It has yet to really play out. The truly frightening part will come when the newly arrived realize exactly how much power they have in their numbers and leaders emerge to take advantage of that power and lead those willing to take more.

Then we will see if there's any sort of sense of self-preservation left in Europe.

I'm guessing it will be determined by the country's psyche and what it's done since WWII. And whether they learned any lessons from the Cold War.

I'm afraid you're map may become even more prophetic.

And although it's amusing from this distance, does anyone doubt that Obama won't try to bring some here? And will what happens there upset the economic cart enough to cause us problems here?

Interesting times.

Posted by: Bitter Clinger and All That at November 03, 2015 02:19 PM (Xo1Rt)

333 The gold standard thing just baffles me. Gold only has a value that the market sets it at; there's no absolute, objective gold value that God declares. Its just as flexible as any other item in the market. Which makes it no different than the present dollar:

Gold is money. Money is not something that has inherent value, in and of itself, but is only a method of counting that applies to value. Currency values fluctuate, just as the "value" of everything in the universe fluctuates. But money has very specific requirements that tailor it to the task of counting, which is what enables it to be an objective measure of value. Those qualities are:

1) Anonymity
2) Rarity: limited, finite availability
3) Practically impossible to create
4) Practically impossible to destroy
5) Divisible
6) Ability to establish ownership (and physical possession being the easiest method)

These are the main criteria that any counting system must have in order for it to qualify as true money and be used as such. Gold satisfies all of these criteria. Paper money, on the other hand, does not. It fails on more than a few - including the most important ones, which is why fiat currencies have always imploded, eventually.. Bitcoins satisfy many of the requirements, but not all (with the ownership part being the problem - the bitcoin transaction chain and minig methods are genius but not without their serious defects).

its worth what people think its worth; the dollar has the value the market assesses it to have. So going to the gold standard just makes the dollar's value subject to a different thing the market gives a value to, not some superior and solid truth.

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at November 03, 2015 01:59 PM (39g3+)

As I wrote above, you mistake "value" for "money". They are not the same. You don't save money to save "value" you save money to save a measure of value. When that measure you are saving can, itself, be changed on the whim of people or governments or organizations, then that is not an objective measure of value (as people always find out about fiat currencies).

Money is for COUNTING and nothing accomplishes that purpose as well and as solidly as gold, which is why a gold standard makes for true money. The government cannot create gold just because it wants to spend more money than it has. Your gold does not get destroyed because it was in your room and your house burned down. Gold is totally anonymous.

The last part of the equation is, of course, acceptance by enough people as money to be useful. Gold has this as no other thing has ever had it and gold has kept this property for millenia. There are more than enough gold reserves around the world and held by people that it will maintain this property into the foreseeable future - far further than any current fiat currency or other system.

Gold IS money.

(That's the short versionbut most of the main points are pretty clear)

Posted by: ThePrimordialOrderedPair at November 03, 2015 02:19 PM (zc3Db)

334 Just say no to blood socks.

We etch our logo onto our socks with lasers to certify that they are not blood socks.

Our socks are sewn in a clean room by diligent, naked, thoroughly groomed Japanese girls.

Being of highest quality we sell our socks for $50 a pair, each pair coming with a parchment signed insignia of the craftsperson together with a DVD of its manufacture.

Posted by: Bare Brand Socks at November 03, 2015 02:19 PM (JtwS4)

335 And thankfully you are in a very small minority.
Posted by: Monsieur Mew Mew at November 03, 2015 02:14 PM (0LHZx)

------------------

Your situational awareness is appalling.

Posted by: Soona at November 03, 2015 02:20 PM (Fmupd)

336 Why work for a living?Posted by: Soona at November 03, 2015 02:11 PM (Fmupd)

Because we are likely headed for collapse and that which is unsustainable will, um, no longer be sustained. Things like WBT cards come to mind. Imagine the day when those no longer work. Reality will assert itself. It'll be work, steal,or starve.

Posted by: troyriser at November 03, 2015 02:20 PM (WuTfJ)

337 Do people not understand why GOPe plays ball with obvious enemies of said party?

If they actually allowed a Reoublican debate go forward with actual republican or at least republicanish moderators every GOPe candidate would be toast, Ted Cruz would smoke each and every one of them.

So obviously GOPe can't have that.

Posted by: Kreplach at November 03, 2015 02:20 PM (+OZjH)

338
#1 and #2 applies to silver as well. Yet gold is much more valuable than silver. Why? Because people perceive it as such, but there's no real reason for it. Gold is at its core no less or no more valuable than whatever someone says it's worth....kinda like money.
Posted by: Monsieur Mew Mew at November 03, 2015 02:13 PM (0LHZx)

---------------

Uh there is much more silver available than gold.

Posted by: Make America Great Again at November 03, 2015 02:20 PM (LXJ1e)

339 321: "And thankfully you are in a very small minority."

When the current system fails, you will pray for more such people. Or else you will starve.

Posted by: Azenogoth (Freedom or Fire) at November 03, 2015 02:22 PM (z/vX9)

340
I think the gop leadership has decided they want hillary as prez.

Stupidity doesn't cover what is happening here, everybody is talking about bias of moderators and they totally skip it. It is on purpose.

Posted by: Guy Mohawk at November 03, 2015 02:22 PM (ODxAs)

341 >> Then we will see if there's any sort of sense of self-preservation left in Europe.

Right now that rumbling sound you hear is the corpse of every European leader from Charlemagne to Thatcher spinning at redline.

Posted by: JEM at November 03, 2015 02:23 PM (o+SC1)

342 WASHINGTON -- It took nearly two weeks to get a pair of controversial Department of Veterans Affairs officials to Capitol Hill for questioning, but it was the congressmen in the committee room who did most of the talking Monday.

"Upon advice of counsel, I respectfully exercise my Fifth Amendment right and decline to answer that question," Philadelphia VA Regional Office Director Diana Rubens said repeatedly under tough questioning from House Committee on Veterans Affairs Chairman Jeff Miller, R-Fla.

Miller's flair for the dramatic was evident in the placement for witnesses: Rubens and St. Paul VA Regional Director Kimberly Graves, both accused by the VA Office of Inspector General of serious malfeasance, were seated next to the regional directors they are said to have pushed out of their jobs for financial gain. The actions spurred a criminal complaint the IG referred to the Department of Justice, and the VA has recommended both directors be punished.

Hillary Clinton: Yes, and I don't understand that. You know, I don't understand why we have such a problem, because there have been a number of surveys of veterans. And overall, veterans who do get treated are satisfied with their treatment. ... Now, nobody would believe that from the coverage that you see, and the constant berating of the VA that comes from the Republicans, in part in pursuit of this ideological agenda that they have.

Maddow: But in part because there has been real scandal.

Clinton: There has been. But it's not been as widespread as it has been made out to be.

Post-care satisfaction surveys do not necessarily reflect the population of veterans at the center of the VA scandal, which dealt particularly with patients' access to care. A large portion of veterans who received medical care may have had positive experiences, but this overlooks the hundreds of thousands of patients who experienced delays in care, or the dozens who died while waiting for care, as the inspector general found.

Posted by: John Rambo at November 03, 2015 02:23 PM (e8kgV)

343 Listen Moo Moo no one in our Manhattan could survive without the global economy, we know that.

Posted by: Donald Trump at November 03, 2015 02:23 PM (mcm0N)

344 fargo gory...?!

it's the mob.
remember sopranos?

i love how this season goes back in time with the young l.e.o. as season 1's carradine character. his young daughter is molly who solved everything in season 1.

my faves: the burn notice guy, his mom and the great guy from parks and recreation.

Posted by: concrete girl at November 03, 2015 02:23 PM (f3K9g)

345 The fact that people value shiny gold more than printed cloth does not translate into making printed cloth seem more valuable when you claim it is attached to gold. In the end, its still only worth what people believe it to be.
Posted by: Christopher Taylor at November 03, 2015 02:19 PM (39g3+)

-------------------

Franky, I don't know what you are saying there.

Posted by: Make America Great Again at November 03, 2015 02:24 PM (LXJ1e)

346 My contention is that the best interests of corporate profits are not necessarily the best interests of our Nation, which goes beyond financial wealth.

I tend to think that seeking maximum profit over any other consideration (also called unalloyed greed) is like any other sin. It should not be made against the law, but neither should it be promoted.

Corporatism is very efficient. But it comes at a cost.
Posted by: Azenogoth (Freedom or Fire) at November 03, 2015 02:17 PM (z/vX9)

___________

I agree with you, we're arguing the same point. But on top of that, I'm saying the average man on the street is better off today than 30-40 years ago. And that is in large part due to the fact we sent low-skill jobs overseas and benefited from the cost savings.

It's a simplistic example but makes the point.

Say you have a country of 10,000 people. 100 making socks and the socks cost $10. And everyone in the country buys a pair of socks a year.

Now one day those 100 people are laid off as the sock factory is moved to another country. But now instead of $10 for socks, it only costs $5. So instead of spending $100,000 on socks every year the country spends $50,000 on socks.

And what does it do with the other $50,000? Buy other goods and services which spur economic activity that eventually creates jobs for those 100 laid off sock makers.

So everyone has the same socks, everyone still has a job and everyone is $5 richer as well. That's how it works.

Now of course it's a lot more complex in the real world and those sock makers might go years before getting another job (if ever). But at the macro level, over a long period of time, everyone is better off when the sock jobs go to China.

Posted by: Monsieur Mew Mew at November 03, 2015 02:24 PM (0LHZx)

347 Posted by: Soona at November 03, 2015 02:11 PM (Fmupd)

chicken or egg.

which comes first?

You can't have jobs for people without the need for the company and you can't get people off welfare if there are no jobs.

You can throw folks off welfare but the idea that enough jobs are out there is wishful thinking. People are out of work because the jobs went away. They may stay out of work purposely but they lost jobs to get there.

Are there enough jobs available? I don't think so and wishing won't make it true.

Posted by: Bitter Clinger and All That at November 03, 2015 02:25 PM (Xo1Rt)

348 Posted by: Monsieur Mew Mew at November 03, 2015 02:13 PM (0LHZx)

Silver also has all the qualities of money but gold is rarer and less used for industry. Silver has often been the transactional money while gold served the purpose of reserve money (and transactional, but silver was useful for smaller transactions).

However, for a system of money one picks a single standard and that is best as gold. Silver still maintains its use but is better not being the standard.

Posted by: ThePrimordialOrderedPair at November 03, 2015 02:25 PM (zc3Db)

349 >> Right now that rumbling sound you hear is the corpse of >> every European leader from Charlemagne to Thatcher
>> spinning at redline.

...the reason you've got a rumble is that Louis XIV seems to be a little out of balance, he may have an erection or something.

Posted by: JEM at November 03, 2015 02:25 PM (o+SC1)

350
"Any other Fargo fans? I find this season disappointing. They are going over board with the accents to make people look foolish. None of the characters are sympathetic except the deputy and his family but the wife is dying and that is depressing. And there is the excessive cruelty.
Posted by: Bruce With a Wang!

that was an observation about the movie. Everyone in flyover country is stupid, crazy or both."
Season ONE wasn't exactly smiley unicorns either. The reality of Evil is pretty grim topic. There is real familial love, which is heightened by the peril of loss.
Basicallybothseasonsare mediations on human suffering and the value of love of home, family, duty etc. Its love vs evil.
People suck, except when they don't. When do we not suck? Cops risking life and limb to keep us safe. Families sacrificing, suffering for each other. You can see that in both seasons ofFargo. The plot is just to keep you watching so they deliver the moral. Evil doesn't win in Fargo. Sometimes good doesn't either, but that' life.
Also find it interesting that the people in this region of country are so polite, but nevertheless descended from Vikings. So ha, well played I say.

Posted by: simplemind at November 03, 2015 02:26 PM (JTwsP)

351 As I wrote above, you mistake "value" for "money". They are not the same. You don't save money to save "value" you save money to save a measure of value. When that measure you are saving can, itself, be changed on the whim of people or governments or organizations, then that is not an objective measure of value (as people always find out about fiat currencies).

Money, printed dollars, is simply a coupon to represent barter. That's all money has ever been. We used to trade chickens for rice or heavy lifting for beer, or whatever. Money evens that out, it removes the limitations on product demand to represent value. Now you don't have to find someone who wants your chickens when you want to get some rice, you get coupons representing the value of your chickens and buy rice with it.

Moving that a step back to barter doesn't fix anything or even change anything. I understand that gold has a psychological attraction, and I love the idea of carrying around gold coins for example instead of dollars, but that doesn't make it a superior system. The value of the dollar was incredibly volatile even back when we were on the gold standard.

In any case, since there's not enough gold in the world to equal the value of the US economy, you'd be assigning an arbitrary amount of value anyway - one that shifted based on the economic worth of the nation and people's perception of value - negating any alleged benefits.

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at November 03, 2015 02:26 PM (39g3+)

352 Because we are likely headed for collapse and that which is unsustainable will, um, no longer be sustained. Things like WBT cards come to mind. Imagine the day when those no longer work. Reality will assert itself. It'll be work, steal,or starve.
Posted by: troyriser at November 03, 2015 02:20 PM (WuTfJ)

-------------------------

Baraka and his minions have been setting the stage for seven years. It'll be "steal".

Posted by: Soona at November 03, 2015 02:26 PM (Fmupd)

353 Ted doesn't know anything about the economy, he's alawyer for cripes sake, and I think we've all had enough of that .

Plus--does he bring the sexy like I do? No he doesn't.

Women love me, just ask my wives.

Posted by: Donald Trump at November 03, 2015 02:27 PM (mcm0N)

354 $500 gas grills - made in China
$1800 refrigerators - made in South Korea
whole rows of power tools all made in Asia

_________

And if they were made here they'd be $1500 grills and $3800 fridges.

Which is kind of the whole point of them NOT made here.

Posted by: Monsieur Mew Mew at November 03, 2015 02:27 PM (0LHZx)

355 >>>I think the gop leadership has decided they want hillary as prez.<<<

Hey, she sure knows how to sell weapons, and spin lies thru the media. Can she collect a debt, launder money, and pay off her cronies?

There you go.

Posted by: Fritz at November 03, 2015 02:27 PM (UzPAd)

356 Angela's a friend of mine--I'm friends with lots of people in other countries. And to help her out, my store will be selling a "Merkel Merkin." It's yuuuuge.

Posted by: Donald Trump at November 03, 2015 02:29 PM (VAsIq)

357
Franky, I don't know what you are saying there.

Arguing that since people would rather have gold coins instead of paper money does not translate into gold coins being a better system of monetary value.

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at November 03, 2015 02:29 PM (39g3+)

358 Mew Mew.. your premise is wrong.

"But on top of that, I'm saying the average man on the street is better off today than 30-40 years ago. And that is in large part due to the fact we sent low-skill jobs overseas and benefited from the cost savings."

Your average American is makin less in real dollars than he was 30-40 years ago.. So, big fucking deal he can buy a toaster cheaper than he could back then.. and it's a piece of crap that breaks in a year anyway.

And with all the jobs that have gone byebye, we have at minimum 40 million not working who would if there was jobs.

Families are hurting. There are no extra jobs one could get to supplement their income.

I used to pull down $12-$15 thousand extra a year doing computer programming consulting on the side.. all dried up now.

You are living in a fool's paradise.

Posted by: Chi-Town Jerry at November 03, 2015 02:29 PM (so+oy)

359 But on top of that, I'm saying the average man on the street is better off today than 30-40 years ago.
===========================

Personally, I do not think so. Are we more advanced technologically? Yes. Have we accumulated more stuff? Yes. Better off? No, no I don't think we are.

Posted by: grammie winger, Revelation 22 at November 03, 2015 02:30 PM (dFi94)

360 Here's a point that ought to be considered when talking about the loss of manufacturing jobs in America: Are Americans willing to do the repetitive motion jobs that manufacturing requires?

One guy I know says "no."

But then I look at the jobs that are here--nearly every job is some sort of repetitive motion.

So, the real question is: What it the price-point?

Until the 3rd world has US wages, those jobs are gone--not because Americans are lazy. But, between either being out bid on welfare or going broke on an honest living, no one will take those jobs.

Posted by: RoyalOil at November 03, 2015 02:30 PM (ZvKdv)

361 I think the main problem I have with hard labor and manufacturing jobs leaving the USA is why, more than that they're gone.

They didn't leave because of some natural system of progress or development, this isn't an inevitable pattern of a free market.

They left because they were crushed by environmentalism, unions, government regulation, lawsuits, and expense driven by insurance costs.

That's an artificial, top-down, government-driven, socialist reason for them to leave, not free market. And that's simply not good for an economy no matter where you sit on this issue.

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at November 03, 2015 02:31 PM (39g3+)

362 Posted by: Christopher Taylor at November 03, 2015 02:26 PM (39g3+)

I spent all that time writing that post on what money is and you don't seem to have bothered to have read it.

A gold standard doesn't mean that you have to carry gold around with you and have all transactions take place in physical gold. Gold is only the backing of the counting system and is the control.

I don't have the energy to repeat or elaborate on what I wrote earlier. If you really care then read up on what "money" is and what something needs to qualify as money. I've told you but, evidently, you don't believe me. If you think about my post for a few minutes it should all become very obvious. It isn't that difficult, really.

Posted by: ThePrimordialOrderedPair at November 03, 2015 02:32 PM (zc3Db)

363 I used to pull down $12-$15 thousand extra a year doing computer programming consulting on the side.. all dried up now.

You are living in a fool's paradise.
Posted by: Chi-Town Jerry at November 03, 2015 02:29 PM (so+oy)

___________

The plural of anecdote isn't data.

And is your consulting in a field that is still relevant? I'm sure lots of dudes made lots of money doing COBOL consulting once upon a time who make dick, today.

On the other hand anyone with even a cursory knowledge of PHP or Python can name his price.

Posted by: Monsieur Mew Mew at November 03, 2015 02:34 PM (0LHZx)

364 I wondered if I was missing something.

you aren't

I heard that Reince dickhead talking the other day, and you could tell he's not negotiating, nor is he pressuring them in any way.

He was things like "there are ways to write into the contract what you want..." blah blah blah, which means exactly ZERO. Liberals don't hold to contracts, as witnessed by the CNBC debate. They win, because of people like Reince.

When I heard him speak, like the limp-dick that he is, and the GOP is, I just turned it off. I can't listen to these liars and cowards anymore. They do not want to change the game. They ARE the game.

Posted by: artisanal 'ette at November 03, 2015 02:34 PM (qCMvj)

365 I spent all that time writing that post on what money is and you don't seem to have bothered to have read it.
Posted by: ThePrimordialOrderedPair

And now you know how ace feels every day.

Posted by: Turd Ferguson at November 03, 2015 02:35 PM (VAsIq)

366 first will be steal. When that fails and people get shot and killed, it will be work or starve.

with a lot of starve.

And not just starving of food. do you have a medicine that you must take? Better try to find some way to stock up or when the economy collapses you will become ill and perhaps die even though you may have plenty of food.

Need a particular utility to survive? Gas, gasoline, kerosene, electricity. You'd better figure out alternatives or the lack may also kill you even if you have plenty of medicine and food.

Live on a thorough fare of some sort leading out from a large urban area? Better be armed or you will find yourself like the Europeans and being overrun and all that you have taken.

It's not going to be pretty and I wonder how many who joke about the burning times and the LIB really understand how cruel it will be. I know I don't but I know more than many others do.

Posted by: Bitter Clinger and All That at November 03, 2015 02:35 PM (Xo1Rt)

367 A gold standard doesn't mean that you have to carry gold around with you and have all transactions take place in physical gold. Gold is only the backing of the counting system and is the control.

I'm sorry I wasn't clear, I understand that. But your appeals to why that standard is better all revolve around its value in a barter economy.

Perhaps, just something to consider, I do understand you, yet disagree for the reasons I posted. Maybe I have a point you're not reading as you claim I am not reading you?

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at November 03, 2015 02:35 PM (39g3+)

368

By the way, Beck was on O'Reilly the other night explaining his bid to grab a debate, and make it more online, etc.

Would be a great get for him. O'Reilly wished him luck. No clue how it would work.

Posted by: artisanal 'ette at November 03, 2015 02:36 PM (qCMvj)

369 And if they were made here they'd be $1500 grills and $3800 fridges.

Which is kind of the whole point of them NOT made here.
Posted by: Monsieur Mew Mew
...........
That's where you are wrong. Americans are the most productive workers in the world. We don't do shit by hand here.. we automate.. we innovate..

And there are things like gas grills being made here in America at competitive prices. So, it can be done.

Posted by: Chi-Town Jerry at November 03, 2015 02:36 PM (so+oy)

370

Personally, I do not think so. Are we more advanced technologically? Yes. Have we accumulated more stuff? Yes. Better off? No, no I don't think we are.

Posted by: grammie winger, Revelation 22 at November 03, 2015 02:30 PM (dFi94)

--------------------

Agree. This nation is very poor now compared to just 40 years ago. It's not just the economy that made us prosperous.

Posted by: Soona at November 03, 2015 02:37 PM (Fmupd)

371 The party relies on the slanted debates to drive out the conservative candidates. Look at what happened in 2008 and 2012.

Of COURSE they're not going to change it.

Posted by: Pappy O'Daniel at November 03, 2015 02:37 PM (hsCpX)

372 When my mother lived in Yemen, she said all the women wore gold bracelets and other sorts of gold jewelry everywhere they went. Apparently in Yemen, a man at that time could divorce his wife on a whim, and she would have to leave everything including her children behind, but she could keep her gold. So a woman always had her gold on her, in case at any moment she would be out on her a$$. Sometimes the amount of gold was significant.

Posted by: grammie winger, Fair Trade Socks at November 03, 2015 02:37 PM (dFi94)

373 "The plural of anecdote isn't data. "

Just lay your tally whacker out on this work bench and I'll hit it with this ball peen hammer as hard as I can, about a thousand times or so, and just as soon as you have enough data points to do a reasonably accurate statistical analysis, you let me know, and I'll stop. Deal?

Posted by: Hayfield Volkovski at November 03, 2015 02:38 PM (tHYMW)

374 I'm sorry I wasn't clear, I understand that. But your appeals to why that standard is better all revolve around its value in a barter economy.

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at November 03, 2015 02:35 PM (39g3+)

Not at all. I was addressing what theoretical money is. It had nothing to do with a barter economy or anything of the sort. It was a discussion of "money" and nothing else.

Posted by: ThePrimordialOrderedPair at November 03, 2015 02:38 PM (zc3Db)

375

Here's the Glenn Beck clip with O'Reilly explaining how he is bidding for a debate.

I hope he gets it.

Posted by: artisanal 'ette at November 03, 2015 02:39 PM (qCMvj)

376 oops

video at link

http://bit.ly/1iB4OJ3

beck v o'reilly for new format for debate

Posted by: artisanal 'ette at November 03, 2015 02:39 PM (qCMvj)

377 Apparently in Yemen, a man at that time could divorce his wife on a whim, and she would have to leave everything including her children behind, but she could keep her gold.

The same principle of why mistresses always want a really, really expensive item from their man. Because they know he's eventually going to kick them to the curb for a new model, and they want something really valuable they can sell off to live the life they enjoyed from their sugar daddy.

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at November 03, 2015 02:39 PM (39g3+)

378 And now you know how ace feels every day.

Posted by: Turd Ferguson at November 03, 2015 02:35 PM (VAsIq)

But if I got paid to post that I wouldn't care

Posted by: ThePrimordialOrderedPair at November 03, 2015 02:39 PM (zc3Db)

379 I was looking for data on mean household income adjusted for inflation. The bottom, fourth, and middle quintiles are all pretty flat from 1967-2012. Second quintile is a little better, but not by a whole lot. The biggest changes are to the top quintile and top 5%. So no, it does not appear that the average man on the street is better off in terms of income, in any significant way once you adjust for inflation.

Posted by: Insomniac at November 03, 2015 02:40 PM (2Ojst)

380 That's where you are wrong. Americans are the most productive workers in the world. We don't do shit by hand here.. we automate.. we innovate..

And there are things like gas grills being made here in America at competitive prices. So, it can be done.
Posted by: Chi-Town Jerry at November 03, 2015 02:36 PM (so+oy)

_________

And you don't think the Koreans know about automation? And yeah there are American grills. And Koreans grills. And Chinese grills. And consumers decide which to buy. And that's how it should be. But generally speaking, except for niche products, it's cheaper to make this stuff overseas.

Which is where this who discussion started from....why is a grill maker elevated and praised as a "real job" while the lawyer or software engineer is scorned as somehow less "real"?

Posted by: Monsieur Mew Mew at November 03, 2015 02:40 PM (0LHZx)

381
People are debating whether gold is the best currency. Really?

Of course it is for many reasons, only lacking in the column of convenience. We mostly just use digits in connected computers now, but that can certainly disappear in a flash and all hell will break loose if that ever happens.

Or if the EBT system goes down.

either/or

Posted by: Guy Mohawk at November 03, 2015 02:40 PM (ODxAs)

382 And not just starving of food. do you have a medicine that you must
take? Better try to find some way to stock up or when the economy
collapses you will become ill and perhaps die even though you may have
plenty of food.

Posted by: Bitter Clinger and All That at November 03, 2015 02:35 PM (Xo1Rt)

=========================================

That's a concern I have too. I have two medications that I can't get a 90-day supply of, only a 30-day supply at a time, lest I become a junkie apparently.

Posted by: grammie winger, Fair Trade Socks at November 03, 2015 02:40 PM (dFi94)

383 >>>>> So, the real question is: What it the price-point?
Until the 3rd world has US wages, those jobs are gone--not because Americans are lazy. But, between either being out bid on welfare or going broke on an honest living, no one will take those jobs.
Posted by: RoyalOil at November 03, 2015 02:30 PM
---------
The fast food service jobs should be going to high school and college students, not to single moms and adults trying to support themselves and children with that income. All those jobs are going to illegals. There are also alot of white affluent families who don't force their teenage and college kids to work part time jobs and just support them all the way through college graduation. For many white college students, their first job is the one they get out of college.

Posted by: L, Elle at November 03, 2015 02:41 PM (2x3L+)

384 Apparently in Yemen, a man at that time could divorce his wife on a whim, and she would have to leave everything including her children behind, but she could keep her gold.

Reverse the genders and you have 21st century America. Except for getting to keep the gold part.

Posted by: Insomniac at November 03, 2015 02:41 PM (2Ojst)

385 Personally, I do not think so. Are we more advanced technologically? Yes. Have we accumulated more stuff? Yes. Better off? No, no I don't think we are.

Posted by: grammie winger, Revelation 22 at November 03, 2015 02:30 PM (dFi94)

you're right, not even close

Posted by: artisanal 'ette at November 03, 2015 02:41 PM (qCMvj)

386 And not just starving of food. do you have a medicine that you must

take? Better try to find some way to stock up or when the economy

collapses you will become ill and perhaps die even though you may have

plenty of food.

Try having a son that's a type-1 diabetic.

Posted by: Pappy O'Daniel at November 03, 2015 02:42 PM (hsCpX)

387 Has anyone bothered to check what percentage of GDP manufacturing represents now vs. fifty years ago when America made stuff?

Posted by: Baron Von Ottomatic at November 03, 2015 02:42 PM (FOvmB)

388 The GOP's List of Debate Demands Is Terrible.

Is not Are. The list is terrible.

That's been bothering me while you jackanapes have been arguing about gold socks.

Posted by: Bandersnatch at November 03, 2015 02:42 PM (JtwS4)

389 Which is where this who discussion started from....why is a grill maker elevated and praised as a "real job" while the lawyer or software engineer is scorned as somehow less "real"?

Posted by: Monsieur Mew Mew

Because lawyers just lie and hedge and erode our freedoms?

Posted by: Turd Ferguson at November 03, 2015 02:42 PM (VAsIq)

390 379 I was looking for data on mean household income adjusted for inflation. The bottom, fourth, and middle quintiles are all pretty flat from 1967-2012. Second quintile is a little better, but not by a whole lot. The biggest changes are to the top quintile and top 5%. So no, it does not appear that the average man on the street is better off in terms of income, in any significant way once you adjust for inflation.
Posted by: Insomniac at November 03, 2015 02:40 PM (2Ojst)

__________

You should look at median, not mean.

Posted by: Monsieur Mew Mew at November 03, 2015 02:42 PM (0LHZx)

391 If this is the way the GOPe negotiates, no wonder Trump wants to do it himself.

His seat-of-the-pants business acumen seems to be worth more than all the calculation the GOP (either branch) can muster.

Posted by: West at November 03, 2015 02:43 PM (1Rgee)

392 366: "It's not going to be pretty and I wonder how many who joke about the burning times and the LIB really understand how cruel it will be. I know I don't but I know more than many others do."

It will be very unpleasant. But I believe that me and mine will come out ok if not totally unscathed. There are two things that I know.

One: He that is in me is greater than he that is in the world.

Two: The Lord also gave us Colt and Smith & Wesson. I have sold my cloak already.

Posted by: Azenogoth (Freedom or Fire) at November 03, 2015 02:43 PM (z/vX9)

393 Not at all. I was addressing what theoretical money is. It had nothing to do with a barter economy or anything of the sort.

You don't seem to grasp my point: all money is, is barter in coupon form. Its the shorter, easier way to do what people have always done. Its all, always, a barter economy: my goods and services for your goods and services. Money simply makes it standardized and easier. The paper money is a coupon for your hours of work and items you own and trade.

Putting that on gold doesn't make it any more stable as I demonstrated clearly above - both are simply up to the whims of the market in terms of value. Putting that one remove away based on gold changes nothing. And as I noted, and I don't think you read, since there's not enough actual gold in the planet to equal the US economy, you'd be assigning a value to the dollars rather than direct and absolute value of gold, making it fiat anyway.

And, as I noted, back when the US was on the gold standard, the dollar still was incredibly variable and volatile in value (even more so than after, in some cases), so you don't even stabilize the economy.

The gold standard solves nothing.

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at November 03, 2015 02:43 PM (39g3+)

394 You should look at median, not mean.
Posted by: Monsieur Mew Mew at November 03, 2015 02:42 PM (0LHZx)

heh.

Posted by: artisanal 'ette at November 03, 2015 02:44 PM (qCMvj)

395
you have to be quite the dandy to wear gold colored socks. I usually stick with navy or black, sometimes gray, tan or brown.

Posted by: Guy Mohawk at November 03, 2015 02:44 PM (ODxAs)

396
Not so long ago, I used to laugh at the tinfoil hat conspiracycrowd for their paranoia-laden stories about massive government surveillance, targeting of private citizens,malevolent control of the media by hostile third parties, the machinations of the uber-rich to erode national boundaries, et al.

Not laughing now.

Posted by: troyriser at November 03, 2015 02:44 PM (WuTfJ)

397 Nood

Posted by: rickb223 at November 03, 2015 02:44 PM (ksPsw)

398 If this is the way the GOPe negotiates, no wonder Trump wants to do it himself.

His seat-of-the-pants business acumen seems to be worth more than all the calculation the GOP (either branch) can muster.
Posted by: West at November 03, 2015 02:43 PM (1Rgee)

yep, let Trump do it
shut Reince up

Posted by: artisanal 'ette at November 03, 2015 02:45 PM (qCMvj)

399 One: He that is in me is greater than he that is in the world.

Two: The Lord also gave us Colt and Smith Wesson. I have sold my cloak already.

Posted by: Azenogoth (Freedom or Fire) at November 03, 2015 02:43 PM (z/vX9)
=====================================
I like the way you think.

Posted by: grammie winger, Fair Trade Socks at November 03, 2015 02:45 PM (dFi94)

400 You should look at median, not mean.
Posted by: Monsieur Mew Mew at November 03, 2015 02:42 PM (0LHZx)

I looked at both. It's also mostly flat when adjusted for inflation.

Posted by: Insomniac at November 03, 2015 02:45 PM (2Ojst)

401 SO what is the proposal to "bring back" the jobs? Tariffs presumably. So we make everything we buy more expensive. And that will make us all better off.

It's the same logic that says higher taxes will lead to prosperity. A tariff is just another name for a tax.

Like I said, Bernie is just the man for you guys.

Posted by: Monsieur Mew Mew at November 03, 2015 02:46 PM (0LHZx)

402 The telling point of how well off we all are is that the top 1% has profited very much from the last 20 years or so. The middle class and lower class, not so much.

That's because companies are profitable world wide but employees only profit if they have work locally. And our goods manufacturing and processing have been shipped overseas and made those people richer but at the lower classes expense.

This is where the increased calls for correction of the inequalities are coming from. I don't agree but I understand the argument.

The rich have not disciplined themselves and they've taken too much compared to the workers they used to depend on. Once that dependency was broken, it's not surprise that the workers would be abandoned for cheaper ones. That's the way it always happens.

It's why they want to ship in more compliant and controllable workers to do their menial tasks.

Somehow they think we'll just stand by and let this happen. Apparently they didn't read much history in school.

Greed never succeeds for long and not in large numbers.

The rich have gotten too greedy and complacent. That will soon come to and end and no one will be happy.

Posted by: Bitter Clinger and All That at November 03, 2015 02:46 PM (Xo1Rt)

403 The core problem with the GOP's inability to deal with the MSM at any level, in any context, lies with its reliance upon highly paid media consultants, supposed experts who are either incredibly inept or who are covert operatives for the Democratic Party, doing it for ideological reasons. Doesn't matter either way, gross ineptitude orpolitical espionage,since the result is the same.

The late, great Andrew Breitbart was a master at dealing with the MFM. I remember one interview with some idiot at CNN. Said idiot was introducing AB and the first words out of his mouth were, "I reject the premise of that question." Naturally, he was being funny, but it sure caught the idiot somewhat off guard.

Last week's debacle was a faint glimmer of the spark of a hope that the GOP candidates will stop taking the MFM's bullshit and instead start calling them out on it.

Posted by: BackwardsBoy at November 03, 2015 02:47 PM (LUgeY)

404 384: "Reverse the genders and you have 21st century America. Except for getting to keep the gold part."

There is much to be said for the benefits of owning a shovel.

Posted by: Azenogoth (Freedom or Fire) at November 03, 2015 02:47 PM (z/vX9)

405 >>I Predicted Europe's Future - and Now I'm Depressed

Dang, zombie!
I'm depressed, too.

Posted by: Lizzy at November 03, 2015 02:47 PM (NOIQH)

406 I think people view jobs which produce something actual and useful to the public as more valuable than those who take money to talk and produce more restrictions and problems for obvious reasons.

Its not that we don't need lawyers, we just don't need so many, so powerful, and so influential ones.

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at November 03, 2015 02:47 PM (39g3+)

407 390: "You should look at median, not mean."

That would place undue weight to the top percentiles.

Posted by: Azenogoth (Freedom or Fire) at November 03, 2015 02:49 PM (z/vX9)

408
Climate Change Kills the Mood: Economists Warn of Less Sex on a Warmer Planet
Climate change has been blamed for many things over the years. Never, until now, has anyone thought it was possible to see it as a kind of contraceptive.
Hot weather leads to diminished "coital frequency," according to a new working paper put out by the National Bureau of Economic Research. Three economists studied 80 years of U.S. fertility and temperature data and found that when it's hotter than 80 degrees F, a large decline in births follows within 10 months. Would-be parents tend not to make up for lost time in subsequent, cooler months.
An extra "hot day" (the economists use quotation marks with the phrase) leads to a 0.4 percent drop in birth rates nine months later, or 1,165 fewer deliveries across the U.S. A rebound in subsequent months makes up just 32 percent of the gap.

Sandals Resorts, the home of the "Luxury Included Vacation For Two People In Love", hardest hit. John Holdren, President Obama's chief science advisor, will be relieved.

Posted by: Judge Susan Webber Wright at November 03, 2015 02:49 PM (e8kgV)

409 The reason to hold a modest amount of gold/silver is there may be a time when barter will get you what you need when paper/electrons fail. My substantial lead holdings will provide security if this barter economy becomes dominant.

And sox. Only sox separate us from our primitive past.

Posted by: Man from Wazzustan at November 03, 2015 02:49 PM (uPxUo)

410 393: "The gold standard solves nothing."

The examples of Weimar and Zimbabwe would refute this.

Posted by: Azenogoth (Freedom or Fire) at November 03, 2015 02:50 PM (z/vX9)

411 The only debate Mitt won was the first debate moderated by Jim Leherer who asked relevant questions and basically let the two men duke it out, and being that Obama is a pig ignorant fuck who can't operate without a TelePrompTer or a praetorian guard, he lost.

The other debates were won by Obama because Mitt was essentially debating two people and was blind sided and shut down by a supposed non-partisan moderator.

So how exactly do they say Chutzpah in Kenyan?

Posted by: Kreplach at November 03, 2015 02:50 PM (+OZjH)

412 Putting that on gold doesn't make it any more stable as I demonstrated clearly above - both are simply up to the whims of the market in terms of value.

Oy, Christopher. Can the Fed create or destroy gold? Can the feral government create or destroy gold? Can anyone know where a piece of gold came from and who owned it? Can gold burn up in a fire?

These are simple, important differences between gold and fiat currencies that make all the difference in the world.

The gold standard solves nothing.

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at November 03, 2015 02:43 PM (39g3+)

It solves the problem of having true money versus an arbitrary, UNTRUSTWORTHY system that is at the whim of people in power and governments.

I really don't understand why this is so difficult to grasp.

True money is about an objective, stable system of counting and ownership. Gold satisfies that (and the other requirements) better than anything else. Period.

Posted by: ThePrimordialOrderedPair at November 03, 2015 02:50 PM (zc3Db)

413 SO what is the proposal to "bring back" the jobs? Tariffs presumably.

Somehow all the complaints about environmentalists, activists, government regulations, union expenses etc totally eluded you? Or you just are that dishonest you want to pretend they were never said?

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at November 03, 2015 02:51 PM (39g3+)

414 "Okay they wouldn't go that far..."

Just wait until the 2024 election.

Posted by: Beorn at November 03, 2015 02:51 PM (dGF4J)

415 What will it take to erase the false idea that the gope is some combination of weak and stupid?

It is not weak.

It is not stupid.

It is dishonest.

Open your eyes and see.

Posted by: eman at November 03, 2015 02:54 PM (vjjg7)

416 And not just starving of food. do you have a medicine that you must take? Better try to find some way to stock up or when the economy collapses you will become ill and perhaps die even though you may have plenty of food.

Yeah. This is the pause I have with my own outlook, given the meds pater familias is on, some of which are specialized. And honestly I never liked my own odds anyway.

On the flip side...how much longer will some of those be available anyway? Lawsuits, industrial capability, environmental impact, scientific fads...you can already see capabilities fading as we watch. Medicine will be next as bureaucrats restrict access and it becomes unprofitable to make and sell certain things.

These things are going away sooner or later on this path. The question is: Do it now, and still have something to rebuild with after? Or drag it out, and waste even more resources and energy and have less to work with?

The good choices flew past decades ago.

Posted by: Brother Cavil, down with Eph 6:12-13 at November 03, 2015 02:54 PM (9krrF)

417 In 1970 manufacturing contributed about 25% of GDP.. now it is about 13%.

Posted by: Chi-Town Jerry at November 03, 2015 02:56 PM (so+oy)

418 Oh, and I forgot a quality of true money:

7) Easily and cheaply verifiable (i.e. practically uncounterfeitable)

Of course, this quality is lost when physical gold is merely backing a paper currency as it is the paper that is counterfeitable, not the gold ... but you have to take the bad with the good. But this point is still one of the essentials of true money.

Posted by: ThePrimordialOrderedPair at November 03, 2015 02:57 PM (zc3Db)

419 So going to the gold standard just makes the dollar's value subject to a different thing the market gives a value to, not some superior and solid truth.

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at November 03, 2015 01:59 PM (39g3+)

Except some bureaucrat cannot expand the supply of gold at the stroke of a pen.

Posted by: Alberta Oil Peon at November 03, 2015 02:58 PM (0yhH4)

420 You know what "bring together" means to Dems?

It means that everything they want goes their way, with their reps and senators always voting in lockstep, and enough GOPers along to a.) pass it, and b.) have it be called "bipartisan" by the MFM.

Oh, and anyone in opposition is sent to the camps.

Those polled respond that way because they want to come across as "reasonable." A word, code, actually, used by Obama and Herself, to say those that disagree are beneath contempt.

Posted by: the littl shyning man at November 03, 2015 03:01 PM (fAMNc)

421 63% of Democrats...want the 45th president to bridge differences in the country

-
by convincing conservatives that they deserve to be insulted, spit on, and kicked around.

Posted by: The Great White Snark at November 03, 2015 03:11 PM (XUKZU)

422 There needs to be less regulation, subsidy, and taxation of production, goods-not-services business, which is suffering because of the cost of labor and regulatory compliance.

Removing regulation (and subsidy) is far easier said than done, because it becomes a part of the fabric of daily life.

As such this is stuck as an academic, a philosophical, issue. And we can't win those arguments, we don't have the cultural traction to gain the attention, much less the respect, of the average voter.

We have three options, Let it Burn and hope for the best, disrupt the market and challenge the narrative with an affirmative example, or negotiate and plead for fair treatment. We've been going with option three (and our basest most selfish parts relish the idea of a hollywood version of option one, starring ourselves: Kip's law afflicts conservatives here).

Are we even going to TRY option two?

Posted by: Ghost of kari at November 03, 2015 03:13 PM (xuouz)

423 The GOP **is** stupid, but not in the way everyone thinks...

Everything they are doing makes PERFECT sense if you accept that the two-party system is now a total sham and its entire purpose is to move use towards completely centralized power as quickly as possible while maintaining the illusion that "we the people" still have some measure of input or control (at least until it's too late to do anything about it)...

Occasionally, you get scenarios like this one where something happens to get the base temporarily incensed enough that the powers that be have to appear to be doing "something" to address the issue... usually just long enough to lull everyone back to sleep, yet without actually introducing any real change or reform that would inhibit their ultimate goal...

There may still be a few honest patriots left in government, but they are so outnumbered, there really is nothing that can do anymore to fix it...

As we've seen, even when people really get mad about something enough to raise a stink, all that happens are delaying actions and trojan legislation named "Let's fix this egregious abuse of power for AMERICA!", but then proceeds to EXACTLY the opposite...

Fool me once, shame on you... Fool me twice, shame on me... Pull the same shit every single time and you're a fool to think this is anything but intentional...

We are all still in DENIAL, clinging to the fantasy that somehow we can still make this work... News flash folks... ITS OVER... There is no way back... Any perceived beachhead against the powers of darkness is a con, a lie, an illusion, a trick/trap designed to keep us playing musical chairs within a smaller and smaller sandbox as they take away our freedoms one by one, leaving us to scramble and saying "we'll win the next one" when the music starts again...

Meanwhile THEY control the rules of the game, and the entire thing is rigged from the start, designed to keep us distracted chasing bullshit while they continue to loot and destroy with impunity...

Posted by: I smell something rotten at November 03, 2015 03:27 PM (ctO3Z)

424 "Choose the form of you destroyer"

TRUMP!

Posted by: Make America Great Again at November 03, 2015 05:01 PM (LXJ1e)

425 401 SO what is the proposal to "bring back" the jobs? Tariffs presumably. So we make everything we buy more expensive. And that will make us all better off.

It's the same logic that says higher taxes will lead to prosperity. A tariff is just another name for a tax.

Like I said, Bernie is just the man for you guys.
Posted by: Monsieur Mew Mew at November 03, 2015 02:46 PM (0LHZx)

-----------------

No, its an entire gamut of policies.

But if you think a country can survive on foot massages and eyebrow threading, your welcome to your beliefs.

Posted by: Make America Great Again at November 03, 2015 05:08 PM (LXJ1e)

426 389 Which is where this who discussion started from....why is a grill maker elevated and praised as a "real job" while the lawyer or software engineer is scorned as somehow less "real"?

Posted by: Monsieur Mew Mew

--------------------------

We already have more lawyers in this country than the entire rest of the planet combined. What productive value are they providing, their work is more akin to extortion that actual providing of productive goods or services.

And software engineers are a type of manufacturing in that the goods they provide are the code needed by the customers. No code no productive good.

Posted by: Make America Great Again at November 03, 2015 05:14 PM (LXJ1e)

427 Let's say a machine can make 1000 socks per hour. That is full productive capacity of almost 9 million socks a year. To fully man the machine, say 4 employees shift at $25,000 per year.

That is about $0.01 per sock in labor cost production.

IOW, that "savings" here is to offload a penny a sock of labor cost to the US government via free trade with China. Since the people doing this work are mostly marginal employees they won't be lawyers or software engineers, but rather wards of the state.

Posted by: Make America Great Again at November 03, 2015 05:22 PM (LXJ1e)

428 Ace, you're right and Trump agrees with you. That's why he refused to sign the letter and to negotiate with the media personally. He knows the RNC/GOP are completely ineffective for anything other than getting their guy (Jeb/Rubio) elected.

Posted by: Aslan's Girl at November 03, 2015 05:52 PM (xetep)

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