Peak Trump? Poll Finds Trump Tied with Carly Nationally; Another Poll Finds Trump Behind Carson by 2 in Michigan

This is bad for Trump, for more than the obvious reasons.

Trump's major argument for why he should win is that he already was winning. If you listen to his town halls (and I've seen them all), he spends a lot of time talking about how far ahead he is in the polls. A lot of time.

That's not a bad thing to talk about, as it gets the crowd cheering and pushes the idea of inevitability and of a genuine grassroots prairie-fire phenomenon.

Plus, it was a great defensive argument: whenever someone criticized him for this or that, he or his supporters could reply: Your criticism is dumb; look at the scoreboard. He's winning, dude. So obviously he knows better than you.

Which is not a terrible argument. (I've conceded it on occasion.)

But what happens when that's no longer true? What is his argument, and where is his excitement?

I've been wondering about that for a while. We may be about to find out about the real Trump -- not the Trump that's winning easily, who seems so in command. It's easy to appear in command when you're winning, and when the media showers attention on you. Just ask Barack Obama in 2007-8.

But the tough stuff of politics is trying to appear in command when you're not actually in command, and trying to make a case for yourself based on yourself, and not external phenomenon (like the fact that you're winning).

You learn a lot more about a person when he's losing than when he's winning. We might be about to learn something about Trump.

Trump attempted something he didn't try previously -- he tried to be nice. Well, nicer, at least. Especially in the post-debate spin-room, he was gracious, and didn't brag about winning -- he said everyone had done a good job and impressed him.

I hope he doesn't mistakenly connect being nicer with the leveling of his support. He showed weaknesses in the debate, obviously, but they were not weaknesses of "being too nice." They were weaknesses of not projecting a command of air about the facts and policy.

The Washington Examiner has a big pretty chart of how they rated candidates' performances. I sharply disagree on Christie, Rubio, and Paul, all of whom I thought fared poorly.

Posted by: Ace at 02:49 PM

Comments

(Jump to bottom of comments)

1 TRANS POWER!!!

Posted by: Caitlyn Jenner at September 17, 2015 02:50 PM (E5UB0)

2 2nd?

Posted by: Caitlyn Jenner at September 17, 2015 02:50 PM (E5UB0)

3 Trump needs to hit the briefing books hard.

Posted by: rd at September 17, 2015 02:51 PM (DWyvT)

4 Trump is as inevitable as Hillary! 2008

Posted by: rd at September 17, 2015 02:52 PM (DWyvT)

5 Trump, Fioria, and Carson. What do these three have in common, and what does that tell us about how to take on the Authoritarians?

Posted by: kraken at September 17, 2015 02:52 PM (sdxPm)

6 I'm still really knobbed off that I wasn't part of the "bate-in!"

Posted by: Jim Gilmore at September 17, 2015 02:53 PM (7utiO)

7 Fiorina... damn you, iPad.

Posted by: kraken at September 17, 2015 02:54 PM (sdxPm)

8 The perverse part of me wants to see Trump vs Biden: Our retard against your retard. May the best mongoloid win.

Posted by: Naes at September 17, 2015 02:54 PM (Ypc8j)

9 I get my stock tips the same way.

Posted by: Socratease at September 17, 2015 02:54 PM (XGARB)

10 You learn a lot more about a person when he's losing than when he's winning. We might be about to learn something about Trump.

By that axiom, I hope to learn *everything* about Trump.

Posted by: Bandersnatch, Opus/Bill the Cat 2016 at September 17, 2015 02:55 PM (JtwS4)

11 Oh well. It was fun while it lasted.

Posted by: mynewhandle at September 17, 2015 02:55 PM (AkOaV)

12 The bad part about Trump fading is that the GOPe will say it is because Immigration is NOT an important issue.

"See the American People do not care about Illegal Immigration!"

Posted by: rd at September 17, 2015 02:55 PM (DWyvT)

13 8
That would be so entertaining.

Posted by: CaliGirl at September 17, 2015 02:55 PM (BHl9S)

14 Too early to tell. White House stirring the pot on immigration will help him.

Posted by: wait a week at September 17, 2015 02:55 PM (jN+3o)

15 Ace,

You're exactly right. And I think the next debate will be telling, if Trump decides he will do homework and come off as polished as Fiorina, or if he'll continue the mantra of "Good management, great people, really fantastic stuff, you wouldn't believe the money I'm turning down..."

I suspect that schtick has a ceiling.

In any case, Trump is my last choice, but I am grateful for the focus on illegal immigration. And unfortunately, if he falls hard, that issue will take the back burner with the consultants telling candidates, "See, you can't be a zealot on immigration."

Posted by: Doug at September 17, 2015 02:56 PM (yNjgJ)

16 One poll?

Posted by: BackwardsBoy at September 17, 2015 02:56 PM (LUgeY)

17 Rubio wasn't bad, except for his immigration answer. Carly clearly beat Trump. My favorite explanation of Cruz's performance was that he survived round one of Elimidate.

Posted by: Lauren at September 17, 2015 02:56 PM (GZ6Pf)

18 I very much enjoy Trump in the race, but I do think he will nose dive in the polls as some point.

I don't know when though. This may or may not be it.

Posted by: mynewhandle at September 17, 2015 02:57 PM (AkOaV)

19 Fiorina will get better and better as she goes along.
Damn, imagine what a Jindal/Fiorina ticket would do!!!

Posted by: Diogenes at September 17, 2015 02:57 PM (r65B3)

20 Submitted for your consideration:

Here's the thing, once we get past the vengeful anger phase of Trumpmania.

Democrats have the luxury of knowing that their candidate, whoever it may be, will NOT SELL OUT TO THE RIGHT.

Republicans/conservatives, however, now have to try to figure out which GOP candidates, if any, will NOT BETRAY THEM.

And I frankly don't trust ANY of them. This is the shit swamp that the GOPe has stranded us in.

Posted by: Bat Chain Puller at September 17, 2015 02:57 PM (SCcgT)

21 Trump is entering the Obama Zone - the hope and change has faded, and now it's time for thin-skinned whiny petulism.

Posted by: Roy at September 17, 2015 02:57 PM (VndSC)

22 Also, ace, I think Rand did alright. Not sure why you gotta hate on him.

The format was designed to get everyone arguing with each other, which is not where Rand shines, because the man has no sense of humor and comes off prickish.

Posted by: mynewhandle at September 17, 2015 02:57 PM (AkOaV)

23 Check out those tv ratings baby.

Posted by: Trump at September 17, 2015 02:58 PM (xwPSp)

24
I don't understand Cruz not getting traction. He's brilliant at abstracting and clarifying the principles at stake in any given political battle, and I think he is an extraordinarily decent man. I'm starting to believe that if you have a Texas accent, you are not going to get anywhere with a national electorate chock full of LIVs. (e.g. Perry).

Posted by: Levin at September 17, 2015 02:58 PM (mgl7C)

25 I imagine Trump will nosedive in the "polls" when it's decided it's time for him to nosedive in the "polls".

Posted by: kraken at September 17, 2015 02:59 PM (sdxPm)

26 Eh, I thought Rand had a pretty bad debate. He just seemed, for lack of a better word, dweeby.

Posted by: Lauren at September 17, 2015 02:59 PM (GZ6Pf)

27 The MSM and GOPe maneuver here, is that if/when Trump fails, that the tie the Tea Party to his demise, and send them both down the river as one.

That's their right to do so. As it's my right to write in for Daffy Duck on election day.

I don't mind Trump not winning, as I'm a Cruz supporter. But I'm deeply offended by the crass cynicism and malice of our erstwhile "betters" in this matter.

MSM's gonna MSM. But the GOPe must be destroyed.

Jim
Sunk New Dawn
Galveston, TX

Posted by: Jim at September 17, 2015 02:59 PM (McRlu)

28 Submitted for your consideration:

Here's the thing, once we get past the vengeful anger phase of Trumpmania.

Democrats have the luxury of knowing that their candidate, whoever it may be, will NOT SELL OUT TO THE RIGHT.

Republicans/conservatives, however, now have to try to figure out which GOP candidates, if any, will NOT BETRAY THEM.

And I frankly don't trust ANY of them. This is the shit swamp that the GOPe has stranded us in.

Posted by: Bat Chain Puller at September 17, 2015 02:57 PM (SCcgT)

^^^^^^^^^^^^^
THIS!!!!!!!

Posted by: rd at September 17, 2015 02:59 PM (DWyvT)

29
12 The bad part about Trump fading is that the GOPe will say it is because Immigration is NOT an important issue.

"See the American People do not care about Illegal Immigration!"
Posted by: rd at September 17, 2015 02:55 PM (DWyvT)

I see that and also "good now we can go back to business as usual in working to ensure the preferred establishment candidate is the last man standing."

Posted by: Buzzion at September 17, 2015 03:00 PM (z/Ubi)

30 but they were weaknesses of being too nice

Did you mean to have a "not" in there?

That said, I did notice that when he tries to come across as nice, it's kind of like the smiling shark in Nemo.

Posted by: Stephen Price Blair at September 17, 2015 03:00 PM (2lndx)

31 Odd how conservative smart set cared about Trump's past liberal positions, but are ignoring Fiorina's now.

It's almost like our whole movement is total bullshit.

Posted by: Duncan MacLeod, the Highlander at September 17, 2015 03:00 PM (COpZ4)

32 Wow, was the Examiner trying to find bad pictures of the candidates? The Trump one is funny though.

Posted by: Benji Carver at September 17, 2015 03:00 PM (OD2ni)

33 I thought that the questions on "what woman should be on the $10 bill?" and "what would your Secret Service codename be?" were sophomoric and childish. I would have refused to answer either, calling the questioner an adolescent and telling him to grow up.

Posted by: LGoPs at September 17, 2015 03:01 PM (FzE3e)

34 It'll be interesting how things shake out. I don't think a lot of us are surprised. It was Carly's night, she was expected to shine and we knew it was her job to take Trump on. She was spot on and performed brilliantly. Well played GOPe.

I'd argue Trump's major argument for why he should win, isn't because he's winning, but rather the fact he will build the wall and will deport illegals. A promise that's been made to us for a few decades with little result. That's his attraction I believe.

Posted by: mossomo at September 17, 2015 03:01 PM (63XAu)

35 "I don't understand Cruz not getting traction."

Right now his natural constituency is flirting with Carson and Trump. Once Trumpmania fades, he should pick up their support. That's what he's banking on at least.

Posted by: Lauren at September 17, 2015 03:01 PM (GZ6Pf)

36 Trump is willing to cut a bitch to get his numbers back up.

Posted by: Fritz at September 17, 2015 03:02 PM (UzPAd)

37 Fiorina hasn't taken any heavy criticism yet. People been hitting Trump from day one. Her tenure at HP wasn't good. She lost miserably in California.

Posted by: nay sayer at September 17, 2015 03:02 PM (CzhL0)

38 My nosedive is going to be YUUUUUGE. Fantastic. The best nosedive you've ever seen.

Posted by: The Donald at September 17, 2015 03:02 PM (hHFOx)

39 I know quite a few center-rightish LIVs. They all like Rubio. I would have been impressed with him too last night if I didn't know how he's sold the base down the river re: amnesty.

Posted by: Donna and V. (sans ampersands) at September 17, 2015 03:02 PM (u0lmX)

40 Can you imagine the media coverage Fiorina will get if she wins and starts laying off government employees like she did at HP.

Posted by: Karl Bogendegia at September 17, 2015 03:03 PM (dMTZ1)

41 I hope he doesn't mistakenly connect being nicer with the leveling of his support.

Oh. Dear. God.

Yeah. I think we all know how this is going to play out.

Posted by: alexthechick - Yeah I give up at September 17, 2015 03:03 PM (mf5HN)

42 Wake me when winter ends. The Reagan reanimation project may learn to sing.

OT: there is some gnome on TV using fancy words to say "Idunno." So far, no mention of underwear.

Posted by: Man from Wazzustan at September 17, 2015 03:03 PM (uPxUo)

43 I was pretty surprised that Trump came out as anti-vac.

His running mate could be Jenny McCarthy.

Posted by: Jane D'oh at September 17, 2015 03:03 PM (FsuaD)

44 19 Fiorina will get better and better as she goes along.
Damn, imagine what a Jindal/Fiorina ticket would do!!!
Posted by: Diogenes at September 17, 2015 02:57 PM (r65B3)

Here's the thing about the Flavor of the Week, Carly.

Her business record is... not good. Best spin is that it's not terrible, but...

Look, Romney had all the same draw backs (laid people off, had some businesses he invested in go bankrupt / fail, etc. etc) but NO ONE could argue that he was not highly successful at what he did. His track record was really really good.

Carly on the other hand -- the HP thing was bad, guys. Please trust me on this. She may claim it was her underlings who made the bad decisions, but she WILL get hammered some of the management decisions made during her tenure. And I'm not even talking about laying people off, or bringing in a ton of H1B people -- that's business, I think she can get over that.

But she made some really questionable decisions about the path forward for HP. The Compaq acquisition was a horrible move. They spent something like $19 Billion to buy a company with a shit product, the only valuable thing was their distribution network. But HP already had a great distribution network, so it really wasn't worth much to HP.

They also changed their sales model under Fiorina to do both direct sales and channel sales. That means HP was selling their product directly to large companies, while also competing with their vast network of resellers who were trying to sell to large companies.

That led to a situation where no one wanted to put the deals they were working on in "the system" because the guy on the HP Direct side could undercut the reseller, or vice versa, and steal the sale.

That led to HUGE forecasting issues for HP. So they had huge supply chain issues.

Now, again, many of these decisions were probably not made my Carly Fiorina -- and she could make that argument convincingly. BUT when you're running on your success as a manager, you can't really say "well, I take credit for the good decisions, but the bad decisions were made without me knowing."

I just think we're really flirting with a nightmare here if we nominate Carly.

That's all

Posted by: mynewhandle at September 17, 2015 03:03 PM (AkOaV)

45 I hope he doesn't mistakenly connect being nicer with the leveling of his support. He showed weaknesses in the debate, obviously, but they were weaknesses of "being too nice." They were weaknesses of not projecting a command of air about the facts and policy.

That's exactly the same thing the MFM has been pushing about DT the past couple of days.

Posted by: BackwardsBoy at September 17, 2015 03:03 PM (LUgeY)

46 37 Fiorina hasn't taken any heavy criticism yet. People been hitting Trump from day one. Her tenure at HP wasn't good. She lost miserably in California.

With all due respect to white guys...

Posted by: Carly Fiorina at September 17, 2015 03:04 PM (dmQI5)

47 >>"I don't understand Cruz not getting traction."

He comes off as too polished to me. Like an actor delivering canned lines. Sort of bloodless, at least in his debate performances.

Posted by: JackStraw at September 17, 2015 03:04 PM (OGm46)

48 Jindal/Fiorina ticket would do!!!
Posted by: Diogenes at September 17, 2015 02:57 PM (r65B3)

Oh ya, Undercard/Top candidate as VP 2016...

:rolleyes

Posted by: cajun caret at September 17, 2015 03:04 PM (UZQM8)

49 She lost miserably in California.
Posted by: nay sayer at September 17, 2015 03:02 PM (CzhL0)

How much of a chance has any conservative running for state-wide office in Cali these days? It's not Reagan's California any more.

Posted by: Donna and V. (sans ampersands) at September 17, 2015 03:04 PM (u0lmX)

50 Peak Trump... that's why I've been saying for two months, it's more important to knock-out Jeb! now rather than worry about The Donald.

Posted by: phreshone at September 17, 2015 03:04 PM (12kBq)

51 Can you imagine the media coverage Fiorina will get if she wins and starts laying off government employees like she did at HP.
Posted by: Karl Bogendegia at September 17, 2015 03:03 PM (dMTZ1)

-----

Ooooooo.

"I can do to the Fed What I did to HP".

Posted by: fixerupper at September 17, 2015 03:04 PM (8XRCm)

52 "I don't understand Cruz not getting traction."

He's drafting behind Trump.
What do you think those meetings with him and Trump were for?

Posted by: rickb223 at September 17, 2015 03:04 PM (aMV0K)

53 I always figured Trump would implode at some point, even if I'm not paying any real attention as to how he would.

The one thing I did not count on was the utter inability of Gope to respond to it. I still don't believe they'll allow anyone other than one of their approved candidates to secure their nomination, but it's not a question of if Trump is not going to be it, but how and when.

Posted by: BurtTC at September 17, 2015 03:04 PM (TOk1P)

54 "She lost miserably in California."

I would be more worried if she actually won in California.

Posted by: Benji Carver at September 17, 2015 03:04 PM (OD2ni)

55 I just think we're really flirting with a nightmare here if we nominate Carly.
-----------------

Yep. Let's get a real business expert in there like Obama.

Posted by: Roy at September 17, 2015 03:05 PM (VndSC)

56 That''s an awfully big bump for Carly. One poll. Last debate she seemed to surge, then settle a bit in the polls. For some reason she wasn't maintaing her post-debate numbers. See if it holds this timebefore drawing many conclusions.

There's a good opportunity for her to have some fun at Trump's expense though.

Posted by: f2000 at September 17, 2015 03:05 PM (5xwgn)

57 The critique on Fiorina seems to be that she looked too angry. Well, I'm pretty angry about politics so I thought she did a good job. I can see why people like a Krauthammer who seem to think the GOP is doing pretty ok would have a problem with that type of "style".

I happen to have a problem with Rubio's excessively optimistic style, but I can see why people fully on board with the GOP think he really connects. I think he's pretty vapid.

Posted by: Dave S. at September 17, 2015 03:05 PM (mhkbv)

58 I thought that the questions on "what woman should be on the $10 bill?" and "what would your Secret Service codename be?" were sophomoric and childish. I would have refused to answer either, calling the questioner an adolescent and telling him to grow up.

Posted by: LGoPs at September 17, 2015 03:01 PM (FzE3e)

I agree. These are stupid questions, but you know how the MSM would play that reply.

"Candidate LGoPs is a sour faced scold with no sense of humor."

Posted by: rd at September 17, 2015 03:05 PM (DWyvT)

59 When I was in High School, I took first at state in the 790m race.

Unfortunately, it was the 800m race that counted.

:-(

Posted by: Sweet Lou at September 17, 2015 03:05 PM (/RTvI)

60 Every goofus on that stage last night was seriously defective. As much as I hate the idea of Trump having a shot to become Prez, the others have shocked me with their urtter lack of charisma. None of them will arouse the passion of anybody. At least the Trumpster is interesting and threatens the apple cart.

I left the let it burn camp for the MAKE it burn camp when I finally grasped that most Americans are now execrable low-class trash in need of a serious wakeup call. Trump may be just the torch bearer we need to bring on the true existential crisis required.

Posted by: Reactionary at September 17, 2015 03:05 PM (reacA)

61 This Trump business will sort itself out over time.

For now, the people who need to get off the stage are pretty obvious.

Carson
Paul
Kasich
Huckabee
Jindal
Pataki
Graham
Santorum

Nothing but background noise.

Posted by: jwest at September 17, 2015 03:05 PM (Zs4uk)

62 46 37 Fiorina hasn't taken any heavy criticism yet. People been hitting Trump from day one. Her tenure at HP wasn't good. She lost miserably in California.

I think she summed up her situation at HP brilliantly. I took the time this morning to check her claim. There was more than one bad egg in the mix and in the end she still managed a Net Growth during her tenure.

Posted by: cajun caret at September 17, 2015 03:05 PM (UZQM8)

63 Trump acts like he can just bluster and insult his way through these debates. I was disappointed in a lot of his answers last night. They were answers of a man who did very little prep work.

I dunno. I'm just not feeling any of these jokers.

Posted by: DangerGirl and her 1.21 Gigawatt TrumpProd (tm) at September 17, 2015 03:05 PM (2E/Tt)

64 I thought that the questions on "what woman should be on the $10 bill?"

Given that the federal government is spending our money doing it, it's not a poor question. I thought the wife/mother answers, while funny, were disappointing.

I thought Fiorina's answer was very good, and Ted Cruz's, for different reasons.

But if someone had said, Harriet Tubman, with her gun, that would have been a worthy answer.

Posted by: Stephen Price Blair at September 17, 2015 03:05 PM (2lndx)

65 Poll Finds Trump Tied with Carly Nationally; Another Poll Finds Trump Behind Carson by 2 in Michigan

Both of those are kinda nutty.

Makes no difference to me, though. Either I'm voting for Trump (assuming he doesn't do anything overly stupid to stop that) or I'm not voting for any Vichy GOP douchebag.

Trump or bust. There's just no one else worth a vote.

Posted by: ThePrimordialOrderedPair at September 17, 2015 03:05 PM (zc3Db)

66 40 Can you imagine the media coverage Fiorina will get if she wins and starts laying off government employees like she did at HP.
Posted by: Karl Bogendegia at September 17, 2015 03:03 PM (dMTZ1)

Look the lay off thing was / is inevitable. HP is a bloated company with way too many sales people, way too many divisions, way too much middle management.

I think pretty much everyone agrees on that. The left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing half the time, and their internal organization is a mess.

That won't be the biggest issue for her vis-a-vis HP. I don't think.

Posted by: mynewhandle at September 17, 2015 03:06 PM (AkOaV)

67 Fiorina is the GOPe desperation play.

Posted by: Make America Great Again at September 17, 2015 03:06 PM (LXJ1e)

68 "...Cruz not getting traction. He's brilliant ..."
Average person hates and distrusts anyone like Cruz that they don't have a close personal relationship with. Bill Clinton knew this. That was why Bill Clinton developed his aw-shucks act. That is why Trump acts the fool.

Posted by: nay sayer at September 17, 2015 03:06 PM (jN+3o)

69 During the noon hour break, the local Michigan station playing the "Maury" had on a pro-immigration commercial featuring Reagan and attacking Trump.

Maybe this air time was bought weeks ago, but Trump is upsetting someone enough that they are putting up their money bash him.

Posted by: Stateless Infidel at September 17, 2015 03:07 PM (AC0lD)

70 I think she summed up her situation at HP brilliantly. I took the time this morning to check her claim. There was more than one bad egg in the mix and in the end she still managed a Net Growth during her tenure.
Posted by: cajun caret at September 17, 2015 03:05 PM (UZQM

Revenue went up because they bought Compaq.

Profit margins did not go up accordingly. Especially when you consider how leveraged HP was at the time. The company was really flirting with disaster.

Many blame that for the emergence of Acer and Lenovo as real threats, and as you know Lenovo has surpassed HP in worldwide desktop/notebook sales in the last few years.

Inside HP, a lot of that blame is laid at Carlys feet.

Posted by: mynewhandle at September 17, 2015 03:07 PM (AkOaV)

71 I'll believe Trump is over when I see it. His supporters don't really seem to be dissuaded so far.

And can we be honest here? Ben Carson is very dull. He's a smart guy. He's a nice guy. He's an outsider. Zero charisma. He gets a lot of his support from the evangelicals that used to support Huckabee. They voted Cruz their favorite at some convention not too long ago. So his base is fickle. He's standing on shifting sand.

At least Fiorina can talk. But that's all it is. She failed at a bunch of companies. She ran for Senate. She failed at that. Now she's running for President. Talk about failing upwards. At his rate when she loses to Hillary she'll probably run for Empress of the Galaxy.

All 3 are probably big government gun grabbers. At least Trump will build the wall. That's why Trump will stay at the top. His base is solid. The fact is no one on that stage screamed Presidential. Maybe it was how the debate was staged. I don't think our problems will be solved at the ballot box.

Posted by: Achilles at September 17, 2015 03:07 PM (85/zS)

72 Yep. Let's get a real business expert in there like Obama.

Carly made the argument - seriously- that she should be the nominee in the California senate race against Barbara Boxer because she was a woman.

I want no part of that kind of person. With the current nightmare of speech codes and thought police in our society, she would pick up right where Obama left off.

Posted by: Bevel Lemelisk at September 17, 2015 03:07 PM (dmQI5)

73 HP announced more layoffs today. That sure seems like...interesting...timing.

Posted by: Lauren at September 17, 2015 03:07 PM (bYGAR)

74 Can you imagine the media coverage Fiorina will get if she wins and starts laying off government employees like she did at HP.

And cheers from citizens?

Posted by: Lizzy at September 17, 2015 03:08 PM (NOIQH)

75 3 I was pretty surprised that Trump came out as anti-vac.

His running mate could be Jenny McCarthy.
Posted by: Jane D'oh at September 17, 2015 03:03 PM (FsuaD)

--------------

He didn't come out as anti-vac.

Posted by: Make America Great Again at September 17, 2015 03:08 PM (LXJ1e)

76 @51 - that's what we WANT.

I want a President who will empty the DC suburbs. I want fleets of U-Hauls moving out like trains of Conestogas. I want property values in the Beltway to collapse.

Posted by: JEM (or whatevs) at September 17, 2015 03:08 PM (o+SC1)

77 Fiorina was not the conservative candidate in the California primary

Posted by: A dude in Michigan at September 17, 2015 03:08 PM (JYjcj)

78 Jim Gilmore is now splitting 0,000000000000% with three other people?

Posted by: Weasel at September 17, 2015 03:08 PM (6xtq3)

79 wait a week @ 14: " Too early to tell. White House stirring the pot on immigration will help him."

Yep. Which is probably why they're stirring the pot. Trump is the only one in the Republican field who could lose to Biden.

Posted by: Pastafarian at September 17, 2015 03:08 PM (LqrRo)

80 Isn't is pretty much an unbroken rule that nobody who loses his/her home state will win the presidency? There's probably a reason why that is and I don't think it should just be disregarded as meaningless when considering viable candidates.

Posted by: Naes at September 17, 2015 03:09 PM (Ypc8j)

81 "I can do to the Fed What I did to HP".

She's already said basically that. Something like it's tough to cut a thousand jobs to save 80,000, and we're going to need someone in the oval office who can make the same tough decisions.

Also, she has come out specifically for not making any new hires at the federal level at all. There are a whole bunch of baby boomers set to retire, and they do not need to be replaced.

Posted by: Stephen Price Blair at September 17, 2015 03:09 PM (2lndx)

82 Yep. Let's get a real business expert in there like Obama.
Posted by: Roy at September 17, 2015 03:05 PM (VndSC)

Her whole campaign is based around how well she ran HP.

Whatever, you guys can ignore what I'm saying, I'm sure what I'm pointing out won't matter to a lot of people.

But it will be made an issue. And it won't be easy to defend against.

Posted by: mynewhandle at September 17, 2015 03:09 PM (AkOaV)

83 Look the lay off thing was / is inevitable. HP is a bloated company with way too many sales people, way too many divisions, way too much middle management.

I think pretty much everyone agrees on that. The left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing half the time, and their internal organization is a mess.

Posted by: mynewhandle at September 17, 2015 03:06 PM (AkOaV)

This, and I think it has to do w/ cutting the fat from the acquisition now that they've got a good grab on the company they purchased.

I said it not probably 10 posts ago but what she said about her time at HP and how it worked out put me solid in her camp.

But in the end, LIV&LIB will see ZOMG 30k jobs gone lol she shitty.

Posted by: cajun caret at September 17, 2015 03:09 PM (UZQM8)

84 Posted by: Stephen Price Blair at September 17, 2015 03:05 PM (2lndx)

Everyone who said "Rosa Parks" should have been struck by lightning and fried right on stage. That sort of stupidity really annoys me. And Thatcher - great but not American - and fucking Mother Theresa ... the commie midget. FFS.

You're right, Carly's was the only correct answer. Cruz's was still a dodge as were the wife/mother/daughter answers.

Posted by: ThePrimordialOrderedPair at September 17, 2015 03:09 PM (zc3Db)

85 >>I thought Fiorina's answer was very good, and Ted Cruz's, for different reasons.

Missed that part - what did they say?

Posted by: Lizzy at September 17, 2015 03:10 PM (NOIQH)

86 Is there previous versions of these polls? I don't think Trump has trouble unless there's movement from him. As long as he's the front runner, it seems likely that there would be movement from establishment-y* candidates with no chance to those that do.

*Catch all for those not on team "Smash the gope"

Posted by: Methos at September 17, 2015 03:10 PM (ZbV+0)

87 "what woman should be on the $10 bill?" and "what would your Secret Service codename be?"[

The answer to all such stupid questions should be "YOUR MOM"

Posted by: wooga at September 17, 2015 03:10 PM (Yzyvq)

88 Ben Carson just needs to stand behind a cut out of his 90s headshot at the next debate and not say anything. Have y'all seen that? He looks like he should be staring next to George Clooney in an episode of ER. That'll get him at least 5% of the women's vote.

Posted by: Lauren at September 17, 2015 03:10 PM (bYGAR)

89 Dunno how bad this is for Trump. The Not-Trump vote is going to coalesce around a few other candidates during this process. If these other candidates are smart they can capitalize, but one mistake and the Not-Trump vote moves along to the next home.

This is the entire strategy Bush was going to use to get through the primaries, but it backfired on him and now works to Trump's advantage - there's the Trump vote and the Not-Trump vote, and the Not-Trump vote is spread around a LOT.

Posted by: major major major major at September 17, 2015 03:10 PM (BI/k4)

90

This is a pretty funny tweet about Trump here:

https://twitter.com/jasonmustian/status/644305751620452352

Posted by: dan-O at September 17, 2015 03:10 PM (ByqK7)

91 24
I don't understand Cruz not getting traction. He's brilliant at abstracting and clarifying the principles at stake in any given political battle, and I think he is an extraordinarily decent man. I'm starting to believe that if you have a Texas accent, you are not going to get anywhere with a national electorate chock full of LIVs. (e.g. Perry).
Posted by: Levin at September 17, 2015 02:58 PM (mgl7C)
---

My take. No doubt the smartest guy in the room but comes off just a tad sanctimonious. YMMV

Posted by: Wisrich at September 17, 2015 03:10 PM (hdpay)

92 "...Look the lay off thing was / is inevitable. ..."

I think this is sorta like saying:
"It's not you. It's me. You'll find someone else."

Might be true. Doesn't stop the anger or fear. A good candidate finds a way for this not to come up. For Ds the MSM takes care of these problems.

Posted by: nay sayer at September 17, 2015 03:10 PM (jN+3o)

93 "For now, the people who need to get off the stage are pretty obvious.

Carson

Paul

Kasich

Huckabee

Jindal

Pataki

Graham

Santorum

Nothing but background noise."

Exactly right.

Posted by: trumpetdaddy at September 17, 2015 03:10 PM (ljZD2)

94 The other candidates made a mistake during the debate last night. When asked "What do you think about what X said about you?" the reply should have been "That's nice but I think we should move on into something a little more substantive, such as (issue)" and then address that issue.

Donald Trump is a great promoter, none better at promoting, and the item he has been selling for years is Donald Trump. Once the campaigns move off of that subject - then what? He has to be up on more than that and saying the right things about immigration.

Posted by: Mikey NTH - Autumnal Enormities have Arrived at the Outrage Outlet! at September 17, 2015 03:11 PM (hLRSq)

95 Outlier poll. Debate was yesterday. Wait for monday polling

Posted by: Tinfoilbaby at September 17, 2015 03:11 PM (Ii765)

96
imagine what a Jindal/Fiorina ticket would do!!!
Posted by: Diogenes

You do realize that Jindal is at an average 0.5% in the polls, right? And it's only 0.5% because some polls round up. The other polls have him at 0.0%.

Posted by: Laurie David's Cervix at September 17, 2015 03:11 PM (kdS6q)

97 Well we don't control the information stream, our enemies do. So what we hear and see is preconditioned by those who don't wish us well. Bad enough for us, but the effect on LIVs and Media worshippers is far worse. After the steady drumbeat of big lies, all the Left needs to do is give us our choices. Again.

Posted by: kraken at September 17, 2015 03:11 PM (sdxPm)

98 Nobody's mentioned Carson's views on gun control yet (for that matter, what are Trump's?), e.g. Pretty easy to knock him down a few pegs by rolling out some of his quotes on that subject.

Posted by: major major major major at September 17, 2015 03:11 PM (BI/k4)

99 I just don't get what Fiorina's base voter is, much as I like the interviews I've seen. You can identify a base Trump voter (disaffected anti-establishment voters of either party, angry Republicans), even several kinds of Trump voters, and also Carson voters (evangelical, disgusted with politics as usual). You can figure out why voters want a guy like Rubio, and who would be willing to hold their noses and vote for another Bush.

What I cannot describe is a passionate Fiorina supporter. No idea who that might be.

Posted by: MTF at September 17, 2015 03:11 PM (LISuA)

100 I said it not probably 10 posts ago but what she said about her time at HP and how it worked out put me solid in her camp.

But in the end, LIV&LIB will see ZOMG 30k jobs gone lol she shitty.
Posted by: cajun caret at September 17, 2015 03:09 PM (UZQM

I think you missed my point.

The lay off thing isn't what will kill her about her time at HP.

The almost running the company in to the ground with horrible management decisions is what will hurt her. Badly.

Posted by: mynewhandle at September 17, 2015 03:11 PM (AkOaV)

101 BUT when you're running on your success as a manager, you can't really say "well, I take credit for the good decisions, but the bad decisions were made without me knowing."

I don't believe she says anything like that. She says she led HP through some very trying times and made hard choices. She acknowledges that she got fired. One of the board members what fired her took out an ad explaining how that was a mistake and she was ousted by a dysfunctional board.

She will spin her HP story well.

I know you had business with HP in the day. I don't take anything away from actual personal experience, but it is by its nature idiosynchratic.

There was an article a couple of weeks ago about how my old company, Lycos, almost made it. It was written by a guy who was there at the same time as I. I knew all the people he mentioned. I saw things completely differently from him because we had different vantage points. (He was a coder, I was bus.dev).

I hope she breaks out of her routine. She thinks no one has heard of her so she repeats herself a lot. So far I think she's shown the most substance and the most poise of anyone running.

Heck, of anyone in recent memory.

Posted by: Bandersnatch, Opus/Bill the Cat 2016 at September 17, 2015 03:12 PM (JtwS4)

102 Can you imagine the media coverage Fiorina will get if she wins and starts laying off government employees like she did at HP.
Posted by: Karl Bogendegia at September 17, 2015 03:03 PM (dMTZ1)

I look forward to the acquisition of Canada

Posted by: brak at September 17, 2015 03:12 PM (xwPSp)

103 Curious about the Michigan poll.....when exactly was the last time that Michigan voted Republican in the general election?

I'm just trying to figure out who all is supporting the folks that did well in the Michigan poll. Are they important? Are they more than likely a bit on the unionistic democrat side? Or maybe pro-illegal immigration democrat side?

Posted by: doug at September 17, 2015 03:12 PM (T1m3G)

104 I want a President who will empty the DC suburbs. I want fleets of U-Hauls moving out like trains of Conestogas. I want property values in the Beltway to collapse

I'm here to help.

Posted by: Antibiotic Resistant Ghonorrhea at September 17, 2015 03:12 PM (Yzyvq)

105 That won't be the biggest issue for her vis-a-vis HP. I don't think.
Posted by: mynewhandle at September 17, 2015 03:06 PM (AkOaV)

The biggest issue is that was back in 2005. What has she been doing for the past 10 years? Best I can tell she was just a floating around different Republican groups waiting for her big day.

Posted by: Make America Great Again at September 17, 2015 03:13 PM (LXJ1e)

106 Everyone who said "Rosa Parks" should have been struck by lightning and fried right on stage.

Honestly, I thought Rosa Parks was a fine answer by whoever said it first. But not the third time. Even if you accept the premise that there needs to be a woman (and Fiorina was correct in rejecting that premise) and even if you accept that the woman needs to be black, there are more people out there than Rosa Parks, and you ought to know them.

And yeah, I'd forgotten about Mother Theresa and Margaret Thatcher.

Posted by: Stephen Price Blair at September 17, 2015 03:13 PM (2lndx)

107 Trump reminds me of Palin in 2008. I loved how Palin drove the lefties crazy and revealed their nasty, bigoted streak. I loved how Palin fired up the crowd and brought energy to the campaign. I was very disappointed that Palin didn't sharpen up and get beyond her talking points on policies and issues. And here's the thing: I think Palin was actually more knowledgeable and credible on facts and issues than Trump is. Trump needs to start showing some substance or his aura of winning and inevitably will fade away.

Posted by: biancaneve at September 17, 2015 03:13 PM (FWVPu)

108 You're right, Carly's was the only correct answer. Cruz's was still a dodge as were the wife/mother/daughter answers.
Posted by: ThePrimordialOrderedPair at September 17, 2015 03:09 PM (zc3Db)

I took all the my mother, etc., answers as the polite version of saying that's a really fucking stupid question.

As I've stated about Cruz before, I like him quite a bit but the fact that his entire life since middle school has been designed to get him elected President is a tad bit worrisome to me.

Poor Jindal. *draws sad little hearts around him* At least maybe President Carly will appoint him Secretary Of Shutting Down DHS.

Posted by: alexthechick - Yeah I give up at September 17, 2015 03:14 PM (mf5HN)

109 By the time New Hampshire rolls around we will be down to 5 or 6 candidates. Trump will be one of them but he will no longer have a commanding lead.

Posted by: joncelli, Boned like You at September 17, 2015 03:14 PM (RD7QR)

110 [Sorry for the O/T, but trying to catch some of the daywalkers:]

Good Afternoon, fellow 'Rons and 'Ettes!

There's no trumping it, we're planning a reprise of last year's SW Ohio MoMe:

Saturday evening, October 17, 7-10 (ish), Beavercreek (I've also locked down a better venue).

Interested parties please let me know: swohmome @ mail.com (no spaces).

Thanks!

And L'shannah Tova to my fellow MotT!

Posted by: speedster1 at September 17, 2015 03:15 PM (1brdf)

111 Honestly, I thought Rosa Parks was a fine answer by whoever said it first.

Posted by: Stephen Price Blair at September 17, 2015 03:13 PM (2lndx)

We're going to have to violently disagree on this one

Posted by: ThePrimordialOrderedPair at September 17, 2015 03:15 PM (zc3Db)

112 >>The almost running the company in to the ground with horrible management decisions is what will hurt her. Badly.

It wasn't really all her. I don't think she's a great manager, she sure as hell wasn't at Lucent, but HP was an incestuous clown show before she got there and the board was totally dysfunctional.

If this was '08 I think it might hurt her more but the atmosphere seems a lot different now and I'm not sure it will hurt her as much as I would have in a previous cycle.

Posted by: JackStraw at September 17, 2015 03:15 PM (OGm46)

113 Her whole campaign is based around how well she ran HP.

Whatever, you guys can ignore what I'm saying, I'm sure what I'm pointing out won't matter to a lot of people.

But it will be made an issue. And it won't be easy to defend against.

Posted by: mynewhandle at September 17, 2015 03:09 PM (AkOaV)

Carla Fiorino isn't running for President. She's running for something, but it isn't President.

I cannot imagine why anyone at this point really needs to take a serious look at what she did at HP, unless you enjoy taking serious looks at things that don't matter.

I would imagine ANY traction she's getting in polls right now is because she's a girl and the Donald was mean to her. Nothing more.

Posted by: BurtTC at September 17, 2015 03:15 PM (TOk1P)

114 Not joking, Carly would do well as the GOP party chair.

Posted by: Lauren at September 17, 2015 03:15 PM (bYGAR)

115 Republican primary voters have nominated liberals since well forever, so why would that change now?

The movement is hopelessly corrupt and stricken with the fatal cancer known as liberalism. Either start over and break the system, or you will get what you've gotten with idiot bushes mcvains and flopney. More government and amnesty and unchecked immigration that forever changes the nation.

Posted by: Duncan MacLeod, the Highlander at September 17, 2015 03:16 PM (COpZ4)

116 97
This is always a huge problem, my LIV girlfriends only know what hoda tells them and late night

Posted by: CaliGirl at September 17, 2015 03:16 PM (BHl9S)

117
what she said about her time at HP and how it worked out put me solid in her camp.
Posted by: cajun caret

You don't get fired by the board for doing your job well. Your company stock doesn't skyrocket when you're fired because the market thinks it was a mistake. Employees don't breakout into spontaneous applause because you will be missed.

Posted by: Laurie David's Cervix at September 17, 2015 03:16 PM (kdS6q)

118 Trump needs to do something. He's bleeding votes to Carson and now Fiorina.

What about Cruz though? He was such a failure last night

Posted by: L, Elle at September 17, 2015 03:16 PM (2x3L+)

119 99 I just don't get what Fiorina's base voter is, much as I like the interviews I've seen. You can identify a base Trump voter (disaffected anti-establishment voters of either party, angry Republicans), even several kinds of Trump voters, and also Carson voters (evangelical, disgusted with politics as usual). You can figure out why voters want a guy like Rubio, and who would be willing to hold their noses and vote for another Bush.

What I cannot describe is a passionate Fiorina supporter. No idea who that might be.
Posted by: MTF at September 17, 2015 03:11 PM (LISuA)

She's the Not the Establishment and Not Named Trump candidate. That's it. She's the anti-candidate who isn't the Donald.

Posted by: joncelli, Boned like You at September 17, 2015 03:16 PM (RD7QR)

120 Just a personal opinion but if I were in charge of the GOP, any state that voted GOP in the general election for 5 straight elections would be given 10 times their allotment for delegates. 4 out of 5 would get 8 times, 3 out of 5 would get 4 times, the others would just be their normal allotment.

Posted by: doug at September 17, 2015 03:16 PM (T1m3G)

121 Carson

Paul

Kasich

Huckabee

Jindal

Pataki

Graham

Santorum

Nothing but background noise."

--------------------

Christie too.

Posted by: Make America Great Again at September 17, 2015 03:16 PM (LXJ1e)

122 How come nobody talks about me?

Posted by: Jim Webb at September 17, 2015 03:16 PM (W5DcG)

123 I hope she breaks out of her routine. She thinks no one has heard of her so she repeats herself a lot. So far I think she's shown the most substance and the most poise of anyone running.

Heck, of anyone in recent memory.
Posted by: Bandersnatch, Opus/Bill the Cat 2016 at September 17, 2015 03:12 PM (JtwS4)

Well, maybe you're right.

But there's going to be a lot of ads with a lot of former and current HP employees saying what I'm saying right now.

And there's not going to be an easy way to spin it if she simultaneously wants to take credit for being a good CEO, which is her premise for why she'd be a good president.

And look, it is a little unfair. It's not like HP was doing well before she got there. And it's not like it's running smoothly now, either. It's a pretty dysfunctional, huge bureaucratic mess.

But the Federal Government is a bigger, worse off, version than HP. So "I couldn't fix HP because it was so fucked up" is not a good selling point for "BUT I could fix DC"

Posted by: mynewhandle at September 17, 2015 03:16 PM (AkOaV)

124 We're going to have to violently disagree on this one

Harriet Tubman's guns at dawn?

No, wait, I don't get up at dawn. How about two, after a three-martini lunch?

Posted by: Stephen Price Blair at September 17, 2015 03:16 PM (2lndx)

125 Her whole campaign is based around how well she ran HP.

-----

Is it?

I don't think her management of HP is going to be much of a factor either way.

Posted by: SH at September 17, 2015 03:16 PM (gmeXX)

126 "I think Palin was actually more knowledgeable and credible on facts and issues than Trump is."

Not even close. She was very well-versed in how to run a government and a campaign, having done it multiple times. If McCain hadn't gone for the Hail Mary and picked her, she would likely have been re-elected to a second term as AK governor by a landslide and be one of the prohibitive favorites this year.

Hence why the MSM/DNC complex had to destroy her utterly. She decided, wisely I think, to monetize and get out rather than keep being enemy #1 nationally.

Posted by: trumpetdaddy at September 17, 2015 03:17 PM (ljZD2)

127 >>Everyone who said "Rosa Parks" should have been struck by lightning and fried right on stage.

That's the PC answer.
However, I've read that Rosa's bus protest was actually planned in advance, that this was not just some tired woman who stumbled into doing something historic. Not thrilled to have an SJW on our money.

Posted by: Lizzy at September 17, 2015 03:17 PM (NOIQH)

128 She's the Not the Establishment and Not Named Trump candidate. That's it. She's the anti-candidate who isn't the Donald.
Posted by: joncelli, Boned like You at September 17, 2015 03:16 PM (RD7QR)

------------------

That's it, except she is establishment.

Posted by: Make America Great Again at September 17, 2015 03:17 PM (LXJ1e)

129 37 Fiorina hasn't taken any heavy criticism yet. People been hitting Trump from day one. Her tenure at HP wasn't good. She lost miserably in California.

You can't criticize Fiorina. She's already rather subtly played the victim card, and will do so again against any other opponent, I am sure.

Posted by: bystander at September 17, 2015 03:17 PM (hKyl0)

130 believe Trump is over when I see it. His supporters don't really seem to be dissuaded so far.
-----

Yeah. When I watched I didn't see anything that was going to sink him. I also didn't really see any "wow" moments from him either. It was once again a night of the moderators trying to get others to go after Trump though. Ok the Fiorina was predictable. But the "trump said mean things about jebs wife" thing was bull shit. A lot of his sympathy for Mexicans probably does come from the fact that he has a Mexican wife.

Posted by: Buzzion at September 17, 2015 03:17 PM (z/Ubi)

131 I am looking forward to seeing Fiorina getting some vetting, and to Trump figuring out if he is serious enough to bone up.

Posted by: rebel flounder at September 17, 2015 03:17 PM (1DH1V)

132 >>>That's exactly the same thing the MFM has been pushing about DT the past couple of days.

yes all I do is repeat memes I heard from the media. I mean, it's just not possible I watched the debate and watched Trump avoid any details about anything at all (including the only thing he has any details about, immigration policy).

must just be bias! Anytime someone says something you don't like, you should claim it's Liberal Media Bias, always. You should never be discriminating at all in laying this charge.

Posted by: ace at September 17, 2015 03:17 PM (dciA+)

133 TRUMP IS OUT?? BIDEN IS IN??

Posted by: Rev Al at September 17, 2015 03:17 PM (8TdcF)

134 As best I can tell Trump is the only candidate trying to keep the conversation squarely on domestic issues - even though he never gets specific. I personally couldn't give a flying fuck what goes on overseas - none of it matters when compared to the problems we have domestically.

Political campaigns are not about specifics - instead they are about selling a product - the candidate. Once you get into the weeds, you lose.

Yes, Trump is an asshole. Yes, he is a braggart. I. Don't. Care. If he can fix the debt and seal our borders then he's the asshole I'll vote for.

Posted by: Stay out da bushes at September 17, 2015 03:18 PM (uRumV)

135 She thinks no one has heard of her so she repeats herself a lot.

------

See I think repetition is something most candidates should do more. We may hate it, pundits may hate it. But most people do not listen to every speech. They may see a candidate once or twice. So get the most important stuff out there an repeat it.

Look people like the hits.

Posted by: SH at September 17, 2015 03:18 PM (gmeXX)

136 BTW, failure theater to defund PP going on right now.

Act 1: The Hearing.

Posted by: Lauren at September 17, 2015 03:18 PM (bYGAR)

137 in case it's not obvious to people:

I SUPPORT TRUMP (if weakly)

The fact that I support Trump, though, does not turn me into a braindead propagandist as some people seem to desperately need everyone else to be.

Posted by: ace at September 17, 2015 03:18 PM (dciA+)

138 You don't get fired by the board for doing your job well. Your company stock doesn't skyrocket when you're fired because the market thinks it was a mistake. Employees don't breakout into spontaneous applause because you will be missed.
Posted by: Laurie David's Cervix at September 17, 2015 03:16 PM (kdS6q)

And like I said, some of that was unfair. BUT again, she was hired to fix problems, and couldn't / didn't.

And those problems are much worse in our federal government then they are at HP.

And I personally won't be able to defend her time at HP if she is the nominee, and I really don't want to be put in that situation.

Posted by: mynewhandle at September 17, 2015 03:19 PM (AkOaV)

139 I haven't been on the Trump bandwagon, but I would definitely prefer him to either Fiorina or Carson. No contest.

Posted by: rickl at September 17, 2015 03:19 PM (zoehZ)

140 Saw something over at Breitbart the other day. Nate Silver says that Trump and Carson really only have a 5% chance of winning it. Care to guess who he has lasting and winning?

Posted by: Tinfoilbaby at September 17, 2015 03:19 PM (Ii765)

141 Posted by: ace at September 17, 2015 03:18 PM (dciA+)

shhh, ace, don't say that too loudly or you'll never get that buy out offer from Salem Communications you've been hoping for.

(I kid, I kid)

Posted by: mynewhandle at September 17, 2015 03:19 PM (AkOaV)

142 If he can fix the debt and seal our borders then he's the asshole I'll vote for.

-----

Many of us have serious doubts he can do either of those things.

Posted by: SH at September 17, 2015 03:19 PM (gmeXX)

143 137 in case it's not obvious to people:

I SUPPORT TRUMP (if weakly)

Posted by: ace at September 17, 2015 03:18 PM (dciA+)

WHAAAAAA!?!?!?!!

This is like when Dimmesdale ripped of his shirt to reveal the carved 'A.'

Posted by: Bevel Lemelisk at September 17, 2015 03:20 PM (dmQI5)

144 if you want to read how Trump just destroys all competition always and is in all ways a Flawless Man without equal and who probably has a huge dick, I'm pretty sure your Breitbart Button is still working.

Posted by: ace at September 17, 2015 03:20 PM (dciA+)

145 Don't understand why you thought Christie did poorly - this was his best showing of the entire race. Paul was true to his libertarian leanings on the legalization issue, but I don't think that earned him any votes. Rubio also had a pretty good debate, I thought.

Biggest loser was Kasich - what was he thinking, defending the Iran deal? Buh-bye.

Posted by: Tom Servo at September 17, 2015 03:20 PM (Kpl3J)

146 >>Not even close. She was very well-versed in how to run a government and a campaign, having done it multiple times.

Palin is a natural politician, and she is very good at simplifying policy into a single facebook post or tweet. See: Death Panels. She didn't coin the phrase, but she boiled down 3000+ pages of (intentionally confusing) unreadable legislation into a single, striking point.

Posted by: Lizzy at September 17, 2015 03:20 PM (NOIQH)

147 The tragedy is that Huckabee is too linked with religious issues to make the Fair Tax the centerpiece of his campaign.

Ben Carson sounds like he's ready to adopt it as part of his campaign, but he doesn't have the fire to sell it.

The Fair Tax Plan could be the 49 state winning issue with the right person behind it. It could be bigger than immigration and draw a lot of independents/Reagan democrats.

Posted by: jwest at September 17, 2015 03:20 PM (Zs4uk)

148 Harriet Tubman's guns at dawn?

Nope. It would be a joke.

No, wait, I don't get up at dawn. How about two, after a three-martini lunch?

Posted by: Stephen Price Blair at September 17, 2015 03:16 PM (2lndx)

I do coffee. Turns out to be a pretty lucky choice in this instance.

Posted by: ThePrimordialOrderedPair at September 17, 2015 03:20 PM (zc3Db)

149 Is it?

I don't think her management of HP is going to be much of a factor either way.
Posted by: SH at September 17, 2015 03:16 PM (gmeXX)

-----------------------

I think she is going for the hyper-knowlegable super-wonk.

Posted by: Make America Great Again at September 17, 2015 03:20 PM (LXJ1e)

150 >>She thinks no one has heard of her so she repeats herself a lot.

As opposed to Trump? He says the same damn thing to every single question; hire smart guys, it will by terrific, everything will be great.

He hasn't said one real thing of substance yet just bold claims about what he would do but zero discussion on how he would do it.

Posted by: JackStraw at September 17, 2015 03:21 PM (OGm46)

151 You know what's gotten super awkward? The Breitbart Vs Glenn Beck thing. There are no winners.

Posted by: Lauren at September 17, 2015 03:21 PM (bYGAR)

152 99What I cannot describe is a passionate Fiorina supporter. No idea who that might be.

Srsly? How about, disgusted with politicians and has two x chromosomes? Historic first and all that

Posted by: bystander at September 17, 2015 03:21 PM (hKyl0)

153 A lot of his sympathy for Mexicans probably does come from the fact that he has a Mexican wife.

Given that at one point he said as much *on his campaign site* it seems fair to say.

Posted by: Methos at September 17, 2015 03:22 PM (ZbV+0)

154 142
If he can fix the debt and seal our borders then he's the asshole I'll vote for.

-----

Many of us have serious doubts he can do either of those things.

Posted by: SH at September 17, 2015 03:19 PM (gmeXX)

If he tries, then he's done more than the Republicans, who control the purse strings right now, not that anyone would notice.

Posted by: Stateless Infidel at September 17, 2015 03:22 PM (AC0lD)

155 Yo!

Posted by: Yo! at September 17, 2015 03:22 PM (GwIKd)

156 Kasich sounded like he was running to be Hillary's VP.

Posted by: Lauren at September 17, 2015 03:22 PM (LzzEz)

157 I'm still a Cruz man, but damn. Carly is most impressive.

Posted by: maddogg at September 17, 2015 03:22 PM (xWW96)

158 Trump hasn't been following Rush's advice. He does much better when he sticks to the issues instead of trying to play tit for tat on criticisms

Posted by: Soona at September 17, 2015 03:22 PM (Fmupd)

159 Never understood the appeal of Jindal. He doesn't strike me as smart or even nice. He's opportunistic, a snob, ungracious, and nerdy in a bad way.

Posted by: Bigby's Fistful of Travelers Cheques at September 17, 2015 03:22 PM (3ZtZW)

160 ThePrimordialOrderedPair @ 65: " Either I'm voting for Trump...or I'm not voting for any Vichy GOP douchebag."

Well, of course not. You're not a Republican. Which is what I suspected all along -- Trump's support is a giant "Operation Chaos" on the part of Kos Kids. Anyone supporting Trump, and not receiving a monthly stipend from George Soros, has been suckered.

Posted by: Pastafarian at September 17, 2015 03:22 PM (LqrRo)

161 I think she is going for the hyper-knowlegable super-wonk.
Posted by: Make America Great Again at September 17, 2015 03:20 PM (LXJ1e)

Yeah, because that's worked so well for Rand.

Posted by: mynewhandle at September 17, 2015 03:22 PM (AkOaV)

162 Fiorina hasn't taken any heavy criticism yet. People been hitting Trump from day one.

People have been hitting Trump for the last decade.

Posted by: rickb223 at September 17, 2015 03:22 PM (aMV0K)

163 33 I thought that the questions on "what woman should be on the $10 bill?" and "what would your Secret Service codename be?" were sophomoric and childish. I would have refused to answer either, calling the questioner an adolescent and telling him to grow up.
Posted by: LGoPs at September 17, 2015 03:01 PM (FzE3e)
-----------------------
I agree that the second is a silly question, the equivalent of asking what tree you would like to be.

But as for the first question, even if I pretty much agree that it's better suited for teeny-boppers at PC Academy, did produce answers that told me something.
One, and only one, person answered it to my satisfaction ----i.e., HAMILTON.

Posted by: Margarita DeVille at September 17, 2015 03:22 PM (cN9Sk)

164 With Trump, we have a low-info candidate to parallel low-info voters.

We (as conservatives) are supposed to be better than that.

Here's to hoping peak Trump passed with last night's debate and we can finally vet serious candidates worthy of our attention.

I'd take anyone on that stage last night over Trump.
Well, it's close when it comes to Jeb and Kasich...but even they are more conservative and knowledgeable than Trump.

Posted by: DRayRaven at September 17, 2015 03:22 PM (9YRwm)

165 Now we have to get a Breitbart button on our keyboards in addition to the Hot Air button?

Posted by: L, Elle at September 17, 2015 03:23 PM (2x3L+)

166 Fiorina is certainly impressive. She does debate well. If there is one reason why I could support her - it was her attack on PP last night. Showed some righteous indignation and called out America. I like her phrase that PP is an attack on America's character. It earned points in my book.

Posted by: SH at September 17, 2015 03:23 PM (gmeXX)

167 how many Republicans watched the debate?

Posted by: Velvet Ambition at September 17, 2015 03:23 PM (R8hU8)

168 I just think Carly does well in the debates. Cruz seems I don't know how to describe it in inauthentic? Trump is Trump. I have no favorite.

Posted by: CaliGirl at September 17, 2015 03:23 PM (BHl9S)

169 My take. No doubt the smartest guy in the room but comes off just a tad sanctimonious. YMMV
Posted by: Wisrich at September 17, 2015 03:10 PM (hdpay)

I'm not sure if "sanctimonious" is the correct term, but it's clear Cruz (a guy I like) is sure he is the smartest guy in the room. And much of the time he is, but that's quite offputting to the large percentage of dimbulbs in the population.

Obama also clearly (and mistakenly) thinks he's the smartest guy in any room he enters, but unlike Cruz he gets away with it because A. black and B. media tongue bath.

I've wondered how many Obama voters would actually find Obama likable if they weren't constantly told by the media that he is likable and/or because they're afraid of being called either Toms or racists if they said "actually, Obama seems like kind of a dick."

Posted by: Donna and V. (sans ampersands) at September 17, 2015 03:23 PM (u0lmX)

170 Srsly? How about, disgusted with politicians and has two x chromosomes? Historic first and all that

That was certainly her platform running in CA.

Posted by: Bevel Lemelisk at September 17, 2015 03:24 PM (dmQI5)

171 Just a personal opinion but if I were in charge of the GOP, any state that voted GOP in the general election for 5 straight elections would be given 10 times their allotment for delegates. 4 out of 5 would get 8 times, 3 out of 5 would get 4 times, the others would just be their normal allotment.
Posted by: doug at September 17, 2015 03:16 PM (T1m3G)

My first response would be what about demographic and intrastate migration changes, since I am not quite old enough to remember when California was a Republican state but I do remember that Texas used to elect Democrats.

But if you're looking at a prior 17 year trend, then that would be factored in.

That's a good idea which means the GOP will never do it.

Posted by: alexthechick - Yeah I give up at September 17, 2015 03:24 PM (mf5HN)

172 I appreciate the detailed criticism of HP experience offered here. I have been interested in Carly for a while now, but I know the record there was at minimum controversial.

I know, broadly, I don't mind having someone that will shitcan some people managing the bureaucratic nightmare we have now, and I know I don't care what % she pulled in 2010 in California. I don't buy that Carly is completely outside the establishment, but she has at least indicated she gets why there are problems in the GOP. I liked the passion on her PP answer, and it was quite a contrast when Jeb gave a perfectly fine but robotic answer right after.

I do find mynewhandles's critiques to have substance and detail. I'm looking for stuff like that. I remember Carly doing a lot of appearances for McCain in 2008, and then she said something that took her off the stage. Does anyone remember what that was? Can't remember if it was a big deal or not.

Posted by: Dave S. at September 17, 2015 03:24 PM (mhkbv)

173 >>>Don't understand why you thought Christie did poorly - this was his best showing of the entire race. Paul was true to his libertarian leanings on the legalization issue, but I don't think that earned him any votes. Rubio also had a pretty good debate, I thought.

i explain some in the podcast.

On Christie, I did not appreciate his silly grandstanding on 9/11 or in putting himself up as Champion of the Common Man when Trump and Fiorina were having a useful argument about each other's records. This was a silly, look-at-me pandering move, and it didn't work on me, so I thought he looked like a typical politician asshole.

Rand Paul was repeatedly a sneaky, dishonest cowardly bitch, including claiming repeatedly that Colorado was about "medical marijuana" (and I'm on his side on that; but I'm not on the side of dishonesty) and then the worst thing of all was saying that SOMEONE on the stage had smoked pot, but then not being a fucking MAN enough to stand behind his dirty little tattle-taling and name names.

He actually let Jeb Bush seem like a man when Bush said "I'll make it easy on him; it was me."

If you're going to call a man out, you call him out. You don't bruit about information about "someone" Like a bitchy Page 3 gossip columnist and then get all shy and shifty when asked who you mean.

Posted by: ace at September 17, 2015 03:24 PM (dciA+)

174 Not thrilled to have an SJW on our money.

That is utterly bullshit, unless you want to give SJW's a good name. This isn't a matter of someone being called male when they want to be called gender-jupiter. This was a matter of forcing an entire class of people who did not deserve it engage in truly denigrating behavior. It made absolute sense to plan how to end real, actual racism.

Comparing that to the current finger nannies out there does a grave disservice to real civil rights activists from Rosa Parks to Charlton Heston, and unnecessarily raises the status of the neurotics who would love very much to grab onto the old civil rights coattails.

Posted by: Stephen Price Blair at September 17, 2015 03:24 PM (2lndx)

175 137- Ace... I support The candidates that the information cartels do not like. Have to do that by using as much discernment as I'm capable of finding.

Posted by: kraken at September 17, 2015 03:24 PM (sdxPm)

176 in case it's not obvious to people:

I SUPPORT TRUMP (if weakly)

Thank you for clarifying that, ace.

I was under the mistaken impression from you post on how you couldn't support him due to the Fiorina face comment that you had stopped supporting him.

Posted by: Methos at September 17, 2015 03:24 PM (ZbV+0)

177 But as for the first question, even if I pretty much agree that it's better suited for teeny-boppers at PC Academy, did produce answers that told me something.
One, and only one, person answered it to my satisfaction ----i.e., HAMILTON.

------

That is true. It was a good answer by both Cruz and Fiorina (but only she could answer that way).

Posted by: SH at September 17, 2015 03:25 PM (gmeXX)

178 I would vote for a toothless backwoods gas station owner over our current occupant.

Posted by: CaliGirl at September 17, 2015 03:25 PM (BHl9S)

179

I'm not sure which surprised me more, Ace supporting Trump or the Fox gang thinking !Jeb! won the debate.

I may have to lay low for a time.

Posted by: GBruno at September 17, 2015 03:25 PM (u49WF)

180 >>> This is like when Dimmesdale ripped of his shirt to reveal the carved 'A.'

HE READS BOOKS! BURN THE BOOK WITCH!!

Posted by: Bigby's Fistful of Travelers Cheques at September 17, 2015 03:25 PM (3ZtZW)

181 I had one disappointment from the debate. I had hoped to see what Trump had had for lunch.

I was expecting him to be eviscerated so slyly by Carly that he'd be staring down at his own entrails and not even noticing her wiping the stiletto on her skirt.

And he'd be looking at his lunch on the floor.

Posted by: Bandersnatch, Opus/Bill the Cat 2016 at September 17, 2015 03:25 PM (JtwS4)

182 Well, of course not. You're not a Republican.
Which is what I suspected all along -- Trump's support is a giant
"Operation Chaos" on the part of Kos Kids. Anyone supporting Trump, and
not receiving a monthly stipend from George Soros, has been suckered.

Posted by: Pastafarian at September 17, 2015 03:22 PM (LqrRo)

You pack an awful lot of dumb in a very short comment. That takes a lot of talent. Have an extra Jeb! tamale, young man, YOU earned it!

Posted by: BurtTC at September 17, 2015 03:26 PM (TOk1P)

183 Well, of course not. You're not a Republican.

Not anymore, I'm not. I voted Republican consistently for decades but the re-election of the Weeping Boner in 2013 was the last straw for me. That was it.

Which is what I suspected all along -- Trump's support is a giant "Operation Chaos" on the part of Kos Kids. Anyone supporting Trump, and not receiving a monthly stipend from George Soros, has been suckered.

Posted by: Pastafarian at September 17, 2015 03:22 PM (LqrRo)

I think you have pasta on the brain. Or, pasta for your brain.

Posted by: ThePrimordialOrderedPair at September 17, 2015 03:26 PM (zc3Db)

184 137 in case it's not obvious to people:

I SUPPORT TRUMP (if weakly)

The fact that I support Trump, though, does not turn me into a braindead propagandist as some people seem to desperately need everyone else to be.

Posted by: ace at September 17, 2015 03:18 PM (dciA+)

There are obnoxious Trump supporters out there. I try not to be. I'd like to see more policy (really just bullet points on his website would be enough for me).

Frankly, I can see where Trump and you resonate, like with the divorce from the big money liberal "Republicans" whose only goal is to protect their tax cuts at the expense of the rest of the coalition.

Posted by: Make America Great Again at September 17, 2015 03:26 PM (LXJ1e)

185 Rand was the worst. He confirmed to everyone who was still in doubt that he is an asshole

Posted by: L, Elle at September 17, 2015 03:26 PM (2x3L+)

186 180 >>> This is like when Dimmesdale ripped of his shirt to reveal the carved 'A.'

HE READS BOOKS! BURN THE BOOK WITCH!!
Posted by: Bigby's Fistful of Travelers Cheques at September 17, 2015 03:25 PM (3ZtZW)

I wish I hadn't read that one.

Posted by: Bevel Lemelisk at September 17, 2015 03:26 PM (dmQI5)

187 So Fiorna is the next big thing until the next debate and then it'll someone else. I doubt it'll be Carson. He's this cycle's Herman 999 Cain. And yes, I'm well aware of the racial implication of implying that he's this cycle's token black who's high in the polls for some reason. He seems to have given as much serious thought to the issues as Herman 999 Cain-- namely none. He's probably just trying to sell a shitty book with a stupid title like "Renewing the Dream" and he'll end up with a job on Newsmax. He'll fade.

Posted by: Naes at September 17, 2015 03:26 PM (Ypc8j)

188 I'd take anyone on that stage last night over Trump.
Well, it's close when it comes to Jeb and Kasich...but even they are more conservative and knowledgeable than Trump.

Posted by: DRayRaven at September 17, 2015 03:22 PM (9YRwm)

I'm voting for Jindal/

Posted by: Velvet Ambition at September 17, 2015 03:26 PM (R8hU8)

189 I read an article on Cruz from his time at Harvard. I might have read it from a link here. Sorry Ace, I don't remember.

Anyway, the guy was basically saying that Cruz was a rockstar but he took everything so damn seriously that he sucked the fun out of the debate team so they organized a coup against him and instated some stoner as the head of it.

Cruz really *is* the smartest guy, and the best debater, but somehow by trying to make his pitch, he just seems so robotic.

He desperately needs to be filmed going on an unscripted drunken rant. Come on, guys, let's make this happen.

Posted by: Lauren at September 17, 2015 03:26 PM (LzzEz)

190 I'm still a Cruz man, but damn. Carly is most impressive.
Posted by: maddogg at September 17, 2015 03:22 PM (xWW96)

Same here.

If she wins the nomination, she will have to present her message in the general election in a more positive way (like Reagan did)...as in YOU, the American people, have it within you to turn this country around and make it a free-er, better, more prosperous place for you and your children...and I'll get the government off your back to help you do that. I'll rebuild our military and take care of our foreign policy so you'll be safe while you're doing it....because America is the greatest place on Earth filled with the greatest people on Earth. We con do better than we're doing. Elect me, and I'll help you prove it. It's morning in fucking America.

Same goes for Cruz.

Posted by: DRayRaven at September 17, 2015 03:27 PM (9YRwm)

191 144 if you want to read how Trump just destroys all competition always and is in all ways a Flawless Man without equal and who probably has a huge dick, I'm pretty sure your Breitbart Button is still working.

Posted by: ace at September 17, 2015 03:20 PM (dciA+)

And it's yuuuuuge and luxurious!

Posted by: joncelli, Boned like You at September 17, 2015 03:27 PM (RD7QR)

192 >>Rand Paul was repeatedly a sneaky, dishonest cowardly bitch, including claiming repeatedly that Colorado was about "medical marijuana"

Srsly?

Denver has more pot dispensaries than Starbucks. Really. They're not all serving sick kids.

Posted by: Lizzy at September 17, 2015 03:27 PM (NOIQH)

193 >>>Yeah, because that's worked so well for Rand.

rand doesn't come off wonky or super-knowledgeable to me. He comes off as the guy who thinks he's wonky or super-knowledgeable, but then doesn't/can't talk details.

Posted by: ace at September 17, 2015 03:27 PM (dciA+)

194 But if you're looking at a prior 17 year trend, then that would be factored in.

That's a good idea which means the GOP will never do it.
Posted by: alexthechick - Yeah I give up at September 17, 2015 03:24 PM (mf5HN)

You did maths?

*kisses on cheek*

Posted by: Bandersnatch, Opus/Bill the Cat 2016 at September 17, 2015 03:27 PM (JtwS4)

195 It wasn't really all her. I don't think she's a great manager, she sure as hell wasn't at Lucent, but HP was an incestuous clown show before she got there and the board was totally dysfunctional.

Also, HP is *still* an incestuous clown show. They should get out of the PC business and get back to making tank-like LaserJets and test equipment.

Posted by: Ian S. at September 17, 2015 03:27 PM (S+N7W)

196 I'm voting for Jindal/
Posted by: Velvet Ambition at September 17, 2015 03:26 PM (R8hU

I like Jindal, too.
But I'm a Cruz guy at heart.

Posted by: DRayRaven at September 17, 2015 03:27 PM (9YRwm)

197 On Christie, I did not appreciate his silly grandstanding on 9/11

In his long lead-up to that grandstanding, he telegraphed it way too much. It was so painful I thought I even he seemed worried he was about to go too far.

Posted by: Stephen Price Blair at September 17, 2015 03:27 PM (2lndx)

198 ace, couldn't disagree more on the Rand thing.

I think he was trying to be gentlemanly by not calling out Jeb! in public. And it really could have applied to any of them, I'm sure each and every person on that stage has smoked pot.

And it wasn't really his main point -- his point was how can you simultaneously think pot should be illegal (and thus, people will end up in jail for smoking it) while also admitting to have broken that exact same law, but just been lucky enough to have not ended up in jail.

The medical / recreational thing I think was phrased weird on his part. If it was purposely phrased like that, then yeah -- Rand was being dishonest. That wasn't the impression I got when watching it, I'll have to re-watch that clip.

Posted by: mynewhandle at September 17, 2015 03:27 PM (AkOaV)

199 The thing about HP is that it is representative of MOST companies out there. The upper eschelon has no clue about what is happening in their own company. They have no idea how to treat their employees, they make piss poor decisions that negatively impact their employees, then have town hall meetings encouraging them to just work harder, or not harder but smarter or whatever their consultants have told them might work. There aren't many companies that can boast a good employee survey. It's all going to come crashing down, ask anyone working for a mid to large size company. I don't know if this is a climate favorable to Fiorina.

Posted by: Auntie Doodles at September 17, 2015 03:28 PM (fo92U)

200
Carson is polling, maybe, 5%, bro.

Carly Purina, the same.

These polls are bullshit.

Posted by: Soothsayer rose above the noise and confusion just to get a glimpse beyond the illusion at September 17, 2015 03:28 PM (oz/VB)

201 I got in the habit of reading Milo Y over there at Andrews site. He is just so funny. Worth a gander

Posted by: Tinfoilbaby at September 17, 2015 03:28 PM (Ii765)

202 I hope Cruz can hang in there at ~10% for the next month or so. This is a lot like 2011 where Michelle Bachmann, Herman Cain, Newt, and some I have forgotten were the flavor of the day/week/month.

I like Trump on Immigration.
I like Cruz.
I do not rrust any of the others. (And that is a real tragedy, Goddamn the GOPe)

Posted by: rd at September 17, 2015 03:28 PM (DWyvT)

203 Posted by: SH at September 17, 2015 03:23 PM (gmeXX)
=========================

Mine too. I saw the clip on HotAir and though it was a great answer.

Posted by: MTF at September 17, 2015 03:28 PM (LISuA)

204 Polls at his point aren't worth the toilet paper they are written on

Posted by: Nevergiveup at September 17, 2015 03:29 PM (gf8BH)

205 I do not trust any of the others.
Trust

Posted by: rd at September 17, 2015 03:29 PM (DWyvT)

206 Fiorina lost miserably in California...

Can you point out on this anatomically correct model of the CAGOP where the bad Democrats touched her?

In other words, name a recent Repub running on a statewide ballot in CA that has done well. I'll wait here patiently for your reply.

Posted by: GnuBreed at September 17, 2015 03:29 PM (gyKtp)

207 >>>Cruz really *is* the smartest guy, and the best debater, but somehow by trying to make his pitch, he just seems so robotic.

i don't think he's a good debater, unless you mean on a technical level.

He comes off as preachy, dishonest, fake, insincere, and in all ways trying to hard to me.

I contrast this with, say, Trump, who really doesn't know what he's talking about, but seems "real."

Or Carly, who managed some genuine, project-through-the-tv presence on the planned parenthood question.

Posted by: ace at September 17, 2015 03:29 PM (dciA+)

208 That's the PC answer.
However, I've read that Rosa's bus protest was actually planned in advance, that this was not just some tired woman who stumbled into doing something historic. Not thrilled to have an SJW on our money.
Posted by: Lizzy
------------------
Parks was a plant. She wasn't even the first black woman to sit down and refuse to move seats.
Again, Parks was a plant by the civil rights movement.
Good intentions, great results notwithstanding, she is a false heroine.

Posted by: Chi at September 17, 2015 03:29 PM (EsEP/)

209 The fact that I support Trump, though, does not turn me into a braindead propagandist as some people seem to desperately need everyone else to be.

Posted by: ace at September 17, 2015 03:18 PM (dciA+)

I'm sorry, but if you do not support my candidate with all of the energy and will that I muster then you are just a lousy GOPe shill for Prince Reibus, high chancellor of the RNC and future vizier to his Misbegotten Majesty Jeb Bush III.

*ahem*

Let's see if that gets things cooking here today.

Posted by: Mikey NTH - Autumnal Enormities have Arrived at the Outrage Outlet! at September 17, 2015 03:29 PM (hLRSq)

210 I can see why Ace thought Christie was a douche for acting all "look at you two plutocrats" about Fiorina and Trump carping about each other's business records. OTOH, Christie did have a point, similar to the one Santorum made at the JV debate about too much focus on "you didn't build that" in 2012.

To the average LIV/normal American who doesn't follow this shit all the time, it did look like Trump and Fiorina were lost in the weeds, just playground boasting, "did too, did not" shit.

That doesn't mean Christie isn't a douche. Just that he had a point in this instance.

Posted by: trumpetdaddy at September 17, 2015 03:29 PM (ljZD2)

211 I still de facto support Trump as my weapon against the corrupt GOPe, but I'm starting to look to hedge my bets.

For President? Nope, still got nothin' there.

Posted by: Brother Cavil, down with Eph 6:12-13 at September 17, 2015 03:30 PM (9krrF)

212 yes all I do is repeat memes I heard from the media. I mean, it's just not possible I watched the debate and watched Trump avoid any details about anything at all (including the only thing he has any details about, immigration policy).

must just be bias! Anytime someone says something you don't like, you should claim it's Liberal Media Bias, always. You should never be discriminating at all in laying this charge.

Trump's always been that way tho'. Long on promotion and short on specifics. You could say the same thing about all the candidates.

My point was that I saw this after Rush mentioned it. It seems clear that the MFM is trying to tear him down by pointing that out, something they never did with TFG.

Maybe it was coincidence, I don't know.

While DT isn't my first pick, I want him out there pushing the issues that are being ignored by the elites and the MFM and being a giant burr under their saddles. That's his value for us, IMO.

Posted by: BackwardsBoy at September 17, 2015 03:30 PM (LUgeY)

213 Cruz really *is* the smartest guy, and the best debater, but somehow by trying to make his pitch, he just seems so robotic.

------

For me, these debates don't really work for Cruz. He is not harmed by them, but I always feel like he is trying to get the one perfect soundbite line out that is smart, biting, and gets the applause.

I like him better when he is interacting with people (like dumb actresses or college students). He appears considerate and thoughtful and just destroys them. I think he would be great in a long debate.

Posted by: SH at September 17, 2015 03:30 PM (gmeXX)

214 I still think Rubio turned some heads last night. He obviously has a very good grasp of the facts and presents very well. He stayed far away from the mud fights and hammered away at Obama.

His views on illegals is off putting but he will be a factor going forward.

Posted by: JackStraw at September 17, 2015 03:30 PM (OGm46)

215 Also, HP is *still* an incestuous clown show. They should get out of the PC business and get back to making tank-like LaserJets and test equipment.
Posted by: Ian S. at September 17, 2015 03:27 PM (S+N7W)

Yeah, Carly had that same idea too.

And it's not a good idea. There are NO margins in printers, and its a total commodity market at this point.

Desktop / Notebooks don't have a TON of margin, but they open the door on the huge RFQ's to get your servers, software, SANs, everything thing else on to the bid.

On the consumer side -- eh, desktops / notebooks are commodity market, but that's what keeps the lights on and keeps the HP revenue numbers so high. They don't drive profit, but they also serve as a good way to keep brand awareness out there.

In other word, there's no upside to getting out of desktop / notebooks. Ask IBM.

Posted by: mynewhandle at September 17, 2015 03:30 PM (AkOaV)

216 I thought Carly did well.

Trump was a wash.

Christie actually got off a few good things and I was surprised.

From the link it looks like Yeb is still flailing so that's the best thing right now.

Posted by: Dack Thrombosis at September 17, 2015 03:30 PM (4ErVI)

217 I also like Cruz, I just worry all the dumbass people won't like him. eg cares about people like me.

Posted by: CaliGirl at September 17, 2015 03:30 PM (BHl9S)

218
And I personally won't be able to defend her time at HP if she is the nominee
Posted by: mynewhandle

HP nothing. It's the Lucent stuff that should be interesting. Their questionable -- to put it kindly -- self lending thru customers and juiced quarterlies.

There had to be an SEC investigation on the stock collapse. CTRL-F 'Fiorina' time.

Posted by: Laurie David's Cervix at September 17, 2015 03:30 PM (kdS6q)

219 So Fiorna is the next big thing until the next
debate and then it'll someone else. I doubt it'll be Carson. He's this
cycle's Herman 999 Cain. And yes, I'm well aware of the racial
implication of implying that he's this cycle's token black who's high in
the polls for some reason. He seems to have given as much serious
thought to the issues as Herman 999 Cain-- namely none. He's probably
just trying to sell a shitty book with a stupid title like "Renewing the
Dream" and he'll end up with a job on Newsmax. He'll fade.

Posted by: Naes at September 17, 2015 03:26 PM (Ypc8j)

I can't wait for my next issue of Tiger Beat, so I can find out whose hot and whose not in the Republican Party.

Tiger Beat, or National Review. I get those two mixed up.

Posted by: BurtTC at September 17, 2015 03:31 PM (TOk1P)

220 Carson doesn't do well in debates mostly because he is conservative campaigning for bottom up social change. That's very unconventional and I can't remember in my life time when I've seen it (except maybe once with MLK who obviously wasn't running for office).

On the stump when he has twenty or thirty minutes to talk to an audience he is very effective at winning people over. Especially moderates and independents.

Posted by: Levin at September 17, 2015 03:31 PM (mgl7C)

221 >>I think he was trying to be gentlemanly by not calling out Jeb! in public

trying to be gentlemanly? He specifically said "one prominent politician" on the dais had smoked pot in high school; a google search would reveal the answer. When asked who he meant, he looked down and abashed instead of being a man.

Posted by: ace at September 17, 2015 03:31 PM (dciA+)

222 201 >> I got in the habit of reading Milo Y over there at Andrews site. He is just so funny. Worth a gander

He has no PC filter, that's for sure. His piece on sexbots scaring the shit out of teh wimmens was harshly hilarious.

Posted by: GnuBreed at September 17, 2015 03:31 PM (gyKtp)

223 I think a lot is going to depend on if Trumps tax plan ignites as much discussion as his immigration plan did.

I think what he "needs" to do is have enough fair tax/flat tax red meat for middle class conservatives while also going after wall street fat cats to appeal to those with a more progressive bent. Those who are in the tax hike under no circumstance crowd, will howl just like the amnesty supporters, but there will be a lot there for populists to mull over. So we'll see, that I think would erase any drop in polls or deficit. He may be holding on to that thing deliberately until some other candidates get close enough.

If he has something thoughtfully crafted with support from a tax policy wonk type that has a lot of credibility with the party, then it's off to the races again I would think.

But we'll see.

Posted by: Dr. Shatterhand at September 17, 2015 03:31 PM (n/ogz)

224 Denver has more pot dispensaries than Starbucks. Really. They're not all serving sick kids.

-----

I'm not sure that was his point. It is a tough sell, but I am glad someone is trying to sell the idea that it is easy to support a law if you only think it will apply to the criminal. But laws have a funny way of eventually being enforced on the law abiding and often to dangerous results.

Posted by: SH at September 17, 2015 03:31 PM (gmeXX)

225 This is terrific news. Once Carly and Carson give amnesty to 30M illegals, America will rock once more. After all they are natural conservatives right? They are fiscal conservatives and totally for gun rights and will vote for Republicans exclusively.

Thank you GOPe along with so-called conservative media, for your masterful and brilliant campaign to destroy The Donald.

Posted by: Monsieur Mew Mew at September 17, 2015 03:31 PM (0LHZx)

226
What many people don't understand is Trump doesn't care about the debates. His campaign about taking his case, love it or hate it, directly to The People.

Posted by: Soothsayer rose above the noise and confusion just to get a glimpse beyond the illusion at September 17, 2015 03:32 PM (oz/VB)

227 I can see Trump's appeal, but I also can see Don King's appeal. Promoters with crazy hair turn heads.

Posted by: Roy at September 17, 2015 03:32 PM (VndSC)

228
In other words, name a recent Repub running on a statewide ballot in CA that has done well. I'll wait here patiently for your reply.

Well, Fiorina's main claim was that being a woman, she would be better in the election. She lost by ten points if I recall correctly.

Posted by: Bevel Lemelisk at September 17, 2015 03:32 PM (dmQI5)

229 The Fair Tax Plan could be the 49 state winning issue with the right person behind it. It could be bigger than immigration and draw a lot of independents/Reagan democrats.

My thoughts exactly, i know some like Rand prefer the flat tax because they think the fair tax gives govt too much leeway to play games, but that's going to be the case with any tax pan, including the flat tax. And i really think that taking away govt's power to confiscate money by force would solve about 2/3rds of the problems we currently have with govt overreach.

Posted by: All Teh Meh at September 17, 2015 03:32 PM (VviqM)

230
Why do people ignore the fact that Fiorina stiffed the people who worked on her 2010 campaign? I sure you that the donks wont ignore it. The woman is worth over $125 milion and cant pay her staff???

Posted by: Bruce With a Wang! at September 17, 2015 03:33 PM (iQIUe)

231 I still think Rubio turned some heads last night. He obviously has a very good grasp of the facts and presents very well. He stayed far away from the mud fights and hammered away at Obama.

His views on illegals is off putting but he will be a factor going forward.
Posted by: JackStraw at September 17, 2015 03:30 PM (OGm46)

Can you imagine Rubio on a debate stage against decrepit old fossils like Hillary Clinton or Bernie Sanders?

Talk about a visual display of who represents the future and who represents the past...

I don't like Rubio on immigration, either...and I'd feel a lot better about him if he'd sign on to something like the Fair Tax, but still....he'd be a formidable gen election candidate.

Posted by: DRayRaven at September 17, 2015 03:33 PM (9YRwm)

232 Oops.

Posted by: Nosediving DJIA at September 17, 2015 03:33 PM (ZbV+0)

233 It's anecdotal but I know people who worked at HP before, during, and after Fiorina ran it. They despise her. They aren't the type to misplace blame. Personally, something about her performance rubbed me the wrong way.

I wager Trump wins the nomination. He picks Cruz as his VP to solidify the tea party/conservative base. The minute one of the justices croak Trump will put Cruz on the Supreme Court and pick whoever he wants as VP. Probably his hot daughter of Hulk Hogan. Who knows.

Posted by: Achilles at September 17, 2015 03:34 PM (85/zS)

234 I actually thought it was a good move for Trump to be conciliatory towards the other candidates and to not be on attack. It makes for great theater, but it's important for him to show that he can be Presidential. I seriously doubt this poll means much (does Michigan even have a primary?) The ratings last night were for Trump and not for the other candidates. And when I turned in to watch this at 7, it was almost an hour before I saw Trump even get a chance to say anything. We really need to pressure the Reps to come up with a decent debate format. I don't want to see a moderator tell a candidate to shut up after giving him 15 seconds to answer.

Posted by: notsothoreau at September 17, 2015 03:34 PM (5HBd1)

235 Parks was a plant. She wasn't even the first black woman to sit down and refuse to move seats.
Again, Parks was a plant by the civil rights movement.
Good intentions, great results notwithstanding, she is a false heroine.
Posted by: Chi at September 17, 2015 03:29 PM (EsEP/)

Why? Didn't make it any easier.

Posted by: Make America Great Again at September 17, 2015 03:34 PM (LXJ1e)

236 Can you imagine Rubio on a debate stage against decrepit old fossils like Hillary

-----

An actual fossil could out debate Hillary.

Posted by: SH at September 17, 2015 03:34 PM (gmeXX)

237 Desktop / Notebooks don't have a TON of margin, but they open the door on the huge RFQ's to get your servers, software, SANs, everything thing else on to the bid.

There is no worthwhile margin on hardware if you don't also make the OS. The Windows PC proved it first and Android's proving it again with the 10,000 layoffs at Samsung last week.

Posted by: Ian S. at September 17, 2015 03:34 PM (S+N7W)

238 I can't wait for my next issue of Tiger Beat, so I can find out whose hot and whose not in the Republican Party.

Tiger Beat, or National Review. I get those two mixed up.

TB, NR or AoSHQ.

Posted by: rickb223 at September 17, 2015 03:34 PM (aMV0K)

239 Last comment on prior thread so I'll post here like a moron.

I missed a large swath of the debate last night, so maybe I missed it,
but I cannot understand why EVERY. SINGLE. QUESTION. to the R candidates
is not turned into an effort to just piss on the current admin?

EG:
Sure, Jeb said... but what about Obama telling us we can keep our Dr.?
There are a billion ways to do this. I know we aren't supposed to learn
from our mistakes, but take the damn gloves off already on TFG. Could we
at least try it and see what happens, guys?

Posted by: Eli Cash at September 17, 2015 03:34 PM (a+WIL)

240 It's easy to appear in command when you're winning, and when the media showers attention on you. Just ask Barack Obama in 2007-8.
______________________

There is a significant qualitative difference in the media attention showered on Obama in 2007-08, and that given to Trump now.

Obama's media attention was all positive, even glowing. Some of it was even downright worshipful. Obama was described as brilliant, thoughtful, insightful, a lightworker, a genius, bi-partisan, a racial healer, a model husband and father, etc.

Trump, on the other hand, has been described as a clown, a showman, a carnival barker, a buffoon, a raaaaaacist, a xenophobe, a liar, a sexist, a serial adulterer, etc.

Trump can't afford to try and morph himself into a candidate who wins the media's approval. Trump is never going to get the media's approval. He needs to stick to his guns and be true to himself. He originally resonated with voters because he stated the ugly truth about illegal immigration: Illegal aliens ARE committing far too many crimes in the U.S.; our borders ARE being overrun by foreign criminals and terrorists; our country IS being used as a dumping ground for foreign criminals and welfare cheats and lazy grifters. Americans know this, and are sick of politicians (from both parties) lying to them about it.

Trump needs to stop paying attention to the media. Americans will forgive a bad comb-over, or a brash manner, and even a less-than-stellar command of the facts -- if a candidate is telling them the truth about the things that matter to them.

Posted by: TrivialPursuer at September 17, 2015 03:34 PM (a31sM)

241
Carly sounds great, but then there's the Global Warming and Immigration issues.

Posted by: GBruno at September 17, 2015 03:34 PM (u49WF)

242 Yeah, because that's worked so well for Rand.

rand doesn't come off wonky or super-knowledgeable to me. He comes off as the guy who thinks he's wonky or super-knowledgeable, but then doesn't/can't talk details.

Posted by: ace at September 17, 2015 03:27 PM (dciA+)

Rand reminds me of Tim Robbins on Anchorman. He just needs a tweed jacket and a turtleneck.

Posted by: Jollyroger at September 17, 2015 03:34 PM (t06LC)

243
I think we can all agree the Big Loser in the 2nd debate last night was Juan Ellis Bush.

The Big Huge Loser of the entire night was George Pataki. He pretty much said "F-You" to the base over and over and thought he gave great answers.

Posted by: Soothsayer rose above the noise and confusion just to get a glimpse beyond the illusion at September 17, 2015 03:34 PM (oz/VB)

244 >>>Maybe it was coincidence, I don't know.

it's not a coincidence; many people are saying it, both liberal and conservative, because it's obviously true.

I've watched EVERY Trump town hall. The guy offers no specifics. He offers a funny commentary (like Rush, a bit) about news articles he's read and what losers other people are.

But on policy or just basic facts...? Absolutely nothing. He just keeps promising that "very soon" he will be releasing this or that plan "which I think you'll be very, very happy with."

Posted by: ace at September 17, 2015 03:35 PM (dciA+)

245 I wager Trump wins the nomination.

------

I'll take that wager.

Posted by: SH at September 17, 2015 03:35 PM (gmeXX)

246 "I sharply disagree on Christie, Rubio, and Paul, all of whom I thought fared poorly."

Respectfully disagree. I thought Rubio did very well, he gained in my estimation. I was impressed by Paul as well. Christie sounded good too although I know I would never vote for him.
I am still for Cruz.

Posted by: Idiocracy is a documentary at September 17, 2015 03:35 PM (2gGwJ)

247
IDF Rescues Captive Israelis - of the Deer Variety

Army gets tip on deer being held illegally in Arab village in Judea, launches special late night operation to set things right.

UN to protest?

Posted by: Nevergiveup at September 17, 2015 03:35 PM (gf8BH)

248 Fiorina was at the helm of HP from 1999 to 2000.

I'm involved in manufacturing, related in an ancillary way to the semifab industry. I remember 2001 -- it was a brutal year, in a time when the industry was much more violently cyclical than it is now.

Fiorina is right -- she led that company through a very tough time. She had to make some tough decisions, and had to lay some people off.

I'm having trouble understanding why that's so hard to take, for the same people who embrace someone whose personal tagline is "You're fired."

Posted by: Pastafarian at September 17, 2015 03:35 PM (LqrRo)

249 "i don't think he's a good debater, unless you mean on a technical level. "

I mean he's the guy who wins the debate on merit. There's a reason he was a really good lawyer. You may hate him, but you're forced to concede his point.

However, that plays much better in a courtroom in front of a judge than it does on tv.

Someone said last night that he needs to stop talking like he's arguing to a judge and start talking like he's arguing to a jury, and I think that's exactly his issue.

He absolutely must relax, but I'm not sure it's in his nature.

Posted by: Lauren at September 17, 2015 03:35 PM (LzzEz)

250 232 Oops.
Posted by: Nosediving DJIA at September 17, 2015 03:33 PM (ZbV+0)

______

Heh. Yeah Janet Yellen said she might kinda maybe start thinking about increasing interest rates by 0.25% and all shit broke loose.

Meh.

Posted by: Monsieur Mew Mew at September 17, 2015 03:35 PM (0LHZx)

251 This is terrific news. Once Carly and Carson give amnesty to 30M illegals, America will rock once more.

Posted by: Monsieur Mew Mew at September 17, 2015 03:31 PM (0LHZx)

You love that fake number, don't you, Sport?

Posted by: Bandersnatch, Opus/Bill the Cat 2016 at September 17, 2015 03:35 PM (JtwS4)

252 The thing with Carly that has me worried is her performance in 2010. I think we'd be hard pressed to find a more favorable environment for republicans than we did in 2010, and I know it was CA against an entrenched incumbent, but she couldn't seal the deal against one of the worst Senators in Washington.

So great she came ready for battle at the grown up table last night, but we always see these "next great candidate" types surge and flame out. As far as I know she has no money and no real functional organizations set up in any early states. I may be wrong on that last point. But she's on my permanent loser list after having failed to get the job done in 2010 when we still had a chance to stop the ACA. It's probably unfair to lump her in with Christine O'Donnell and Sharon Angle, but that's how I have viewed her candidacy.

Posted by: Dr. Shatterhand at September 17, 2015 03:36 PM (n/ogz)

253 trying to be gentlemanly? He specifically said "one prominent politician" on the dais had smoked pot in high school; a google search would reveal the answer. When asked who he meant, he looked down and abashed instead of being a man.

Posted by: ace at September 17, 2015 03:31 PM (dciA+)

Quick Google search says Rubio, Cruz, Rand, and Jeb have all admitted to smoking pot.

I just thought it was a sideshow to the point Rand was trying to make, and that he wasn't tryign to get in to a "JEB SMOKED POT!!!" tattle tale moment, and was more interested in making his point.

But again, YMMV on how you saw that. I thought Tapper should NOT have followed up with "who are you saying smoked pot?" because it was not germane to Rands point.

Posted by: mynewhandle at September 17, 2015 03:36 PM (AkOaV)

254 The only effective solution to incompetent government is to hold suprise decimations of departments that are failing.

8...9...DOH!

Posted by: Man from Wazzustan at September 17, 2015 03:36 PM (uPxUo)

255 TB, NR or AoSHQ.

Posted by: rickb223 at September 17, 2015 03:34 PM (aMV0K)

I ain't touching the third one. Too many weirdos milling about there these days.

Posted by: BurtTC at September 17, 2015 03:36 PM (TOk1P)

256 236 An actual fossil could out debate Hillary.

Given that Hillary won't commit to debate, that's actually true. Just put a fossilized coelocanth on the podium and it wins by default.

Posted by: Naes at September 17, 2015 03:36 PM (Ypc8j)

257 You did maths?

*kisses on cheek*
Posted by: Bandersnatch, Opus/Bill the Cat 2016 at September 17, 2015 03:27 PM (JtwS4)

*toes ground all bashful like*

One does one's humble best.

Posted by: alexthechick - Yeah I give up at September 17, 2015 03:36 PM (mf5HN)

258
Arnold won CA.

Posted by: Soothsayer rose above the noise and confusion just to get a glimpse beyond the illusion at September 17, 2015 03:36 PM (oz/VB)

259 ace,
I agree with you 100% @ 207, but I do think Cruz is the smartest one up there. Debates aren't his shingles moment, though. He comes off as plastic, polished and too much the politician.

Some here, Lizzy I think, posted a video of Cruz taking on Code Pinkos at a rally recently. He was so much better speaking off the cuff, stating facts and being decent about shutting them up. He let them speak, then tore their arguments to shreds with facts.
Very impressive, IMO.

Posted by: Chi at September 17, 2015 03:36 PM (EsEP/)

260 Fiorina is right -- she led that company through a very tough time. She had to make some tough decisions, and had to lay some people off.

I'm having trouble understanding why that's so hard to take, for the same people who embrace someone whose personal tagline is "You're fired."
Posted by: Pastafarian at September 17, 2015 03:35 PM (LqrRo)

_______

She didn't just lay some people off. She fired 30K Americans and replaced them with cheaper versions from India. Now I suppose you could say, oh well, tough shit, that's what you have to do as CEO to keep the company profitable. But at the same time she should be called out for it.

Posted by: Monsieur Mew Mew at September 17, 2015 03:36 PM (0LHZx)

261 Cruz really *is* the smartest guy, and the best debater, but somehow by trying to make his pitch, he just seems so robotic.

He would have been blockbuster 20 years ago. But the modern "electorate" doesn't reason, it feels--I seem to recall this very point getting tossed around a lot in these parts. As it currently stands, this actually means that--and this is pretty horrifying even to me--Trump may be the candidate best adapted to the current political climate.

That's not changing soon. It sure as hell ain't going to change through voting. It needs to be changed, but until then let's stop pretending things are a way they aren't.

Posted by: Brother Cavil, down with Eph 6:12-13 at September 17, 2015 03:37 PM (9krrF)

262 >>>I still think Rubio turned some heads last night. He obviously has a very good grasp of the facts and presents very well. He stayed far away from the mud fights and hammered away at Obama.

he gives the same stagey excerpts from his stump speech.

Posted by: ace at September 17, 2015 03:37 PM (dciA+)

263
The Terminator ran in CA as a Republican and won.

Posted by: Soothsayer rose above the noise and confusion just to get a glimpse beyond the illusion at September 17, 2015 03:37 PM (oz/VB)

264 If he has something thoughtfully crafted with support from a tax policy wonk type that has a lot of credibility with the party, then it's off to the races again I would think.

But we'll see.
Posted by: Dr. Shatterhand at September 17, 2015 03:31 PM (n/ogz)

Yeah, hopefully David Stockman is in the mix.

Posted by: Make America Great Again at September 17, 2015 03:37 PM (LXJ1e)

265 I don't really care about Fiorina's time at HP. Nor do I care about Trump's bankruptcies. Neither really tell me how either would perform as President.

Posted by: SH at September 17, 2015 03:37 PM (gmeXX)

266 shingles? *shining*

Posted by: Chi at September 17, 2015 03:37 PM (EsEP/)

267 I wager Trump wins the nomination.

------

I'll take that wager.
Posted by: SH

4 Quatloos. Table limit. Sorry.

Posted by: rickb223 at September 17, 2015 03:37 PM (aMV0K)

268 I don't want planners/thinkers, I want doers.

Posted by: Dr Spank at September 17, 2015 03:38 PM (TJCSB)

269 137 in case it's not obvious to people:

I SUPPORT TRUMP (if weakly)

Right.

I'm sure you don't support Trump any more than I do. You're just getting tired of being yelled at.

I don't know of a true Trump supporter on this website, however I believe the bulk of the commenters support the idea of a Trump, railing against the establishment and elites like a bull in a china shop, going full steam ahead and getting something done.

The people here and across the country are so mad at our do-nothing congress, the democrats flaunting the law and Kasich-style politicians telling everyone why things can't be done that someone like Trump is real appealing.

Fiorina seems to be picking up on the clues that leadership has something to do with leading. Maybe a few more candidates will begin to understand and then we'll have a real race.

Posted by: jwest at September 17, 2015 03:38 PM (Zs4uk)

270 Fiorina is right -- she led that company through a very tough time. She had to make some tough decisions, and had to lay some people off.

I'm having trouble understanding why that's so hard to take, for the same people who embrace someone whose personal tagline is "You're fired."
Posted by: Pastafarian at September 17, 2015 03:35 PM (LqrRo)

read my comment @44 for MY answer to that question. Can't speak for others.

Posted by: mynewhandle at September 17, 2015 03:38 PM (AkOaV)

271 244- Ace... That being true, is this a bad thing in terms of the general voting public? Serious question.

Posted by: kraken at September 17, 2015 03:38 PM (sdxPm)

272
Graham, the effeminate war monger, got schooled by Jindal. Jindal was the overall winner, last night.

Posted by: Soothsayer rose above the noise and confusion just to get a glimpse beyond the illusion at September 17, 2015 03:38 PM (oz/VB)

273 252 The thing with Carly that has me worried is her performance in 2010. I think we'd be hard pressed to find a more favorable environment for republicans than we did in 2010, and I know it was CA against an entrenched incumbent, but she couldn't seal the deal against one of the worst Senators in Washington.

Posted by: Dr. Shatterhand at September 17, 2015 03:36 PM (n/ogz)

____________

I'm no Carlita fan, but that's an unfair argument. Even in 2010 I don't think any Republican could have won. Remember, Meg Whitman also lost to Jerry Fucking Brown in that election. Jerry Brown!! That's how far gone CA is.

Posted by: Monsieur Mew Mew at September 17, 2015 03:38 PM (0LHZx)

274 I'll never try to predict anything about Trump's candidacy, but Carly's performance in the poll would be a better representation of the whole Cain/Bachmann/Flavor of the Moment meme that the MSM has been trying to pin on Trump for the last couple of months.

Posted by: Disgruntled at September 17, 2015 03:39 PM (WNYv6)

275 I still think Rubio turned some heads last night. He obviously has a very good grasp of the facts and presents very well. He stayed far away from the mud fights and hammered away at Obama.

he gives the same stagey excerpts from his stump speech.

Posted by: ace at September 17, 2015 03:37 PM (dciA+)

Yeah, that and the immigration thing.

Posted by: Jollyroger at September 17, 2015 03:39 PM (t06LC)

276 "Carson doesn't do well in debates mostly because he is conservative campaigning for bottom up social change"

More than that, his presentation is just so quiet that he fades into the background. I know he's not a yeller and a pulpit pounder, but he absolutely MUST project.

Posted by: Lauren at September 17, 2015 03:39 PM (LzzEz)

277 "he gives the same stagey excerpts from his stump speech."

True. But most people haven't seen his stump speech. This may be the first or second time they've ever set eyes on the man.

Posted by: trumpetdaddy at September 17, 2015 03:39 PM (ljZD2)

278 >> But laws have a funny way of eventually being enforced on the law abiding and often to dangerous results.

I've seen Rand speak about this before, and it is good. However, this applies to everything, not just drug laws. Just look at the Kennedys.

Posted by: Lizzy at September 17, 2015 03:40 PM (NOIQH)

279 I just can't get passed that Rand is Ron's son. No one could grow up with with Ron and not have the crazy rub off onto you.

Posted by: Soona at September 17, 2015 03:40 PM (Fmupd)

280 >>>He would have been blockbuster 20 years ago. But the modern "electorate" doesn't reason, it feels--I seem to recall this very point getting tossed around a lot in these parts.

please. Cruz' presentation is a grab-bag of tricks designed to elicit and emotive response, the stage whisper, the dramatic pauses, the eyebrows peaked upwards almost as if in prayer.

Don't tell me he's not trying to push emotional buttons; he's trying, and way too hard. He's just failing to do so.

Posted by: ace at September 17, 2015 03:40 PM (dciA+)

281 But on policy or just basic facts...? Absolutely
nothing. He just keeps promising that "very soon" he will be releasing
this or that plan "which I think you'll be very, very happy with."

Posted by: ace at September 17, 2015 03:35 PM (dciA+)

Which is the Perot template, of course. And before him, PT Barnum.

Posted by: BurtTC at September 17, 2015 03:40 PM (TOk1P)

282
Carson sure has a funny way of showing his conservatism, though.

Posted by: Soothsayer rose above the noise and confusion just to get a glimpse beyond the illusion at September 17, 2015 03:40 PM (oz/VB)

283 So !Jeb! is actually winning?

Posted by: andycanuck at September 17, 2015 03:40 PM (+W1gD)

284 I've seen Rand speak about this before, and it is good. However, this applies to everything, not just drug laws. Just look at the Kennedys.
Posted by: Lizzy at September 17, 2015 03:40 PM (NOIQH)

Yes it does, and he makes the same case about many laws.

Policywise, I'm much more on board with Rand than anyone else on the stage.

His last name is what is killing him IMO.

Posted by: mynewhandle at September 17, 2015 03:40 PM (AkOaV)

285 If you want Jeb's liberalism but in the form of a woman, then Carlita is your candidate.

Posted by: Monsieur Mew Mew at September 17, 2015 03:40 PM (0LHZx)

286 The Terminator ran in CA as a Republican and won.
Posted by: Soothsayer rose above the noise and confusion just to get a glimpse beyond the illusion at September 17, 2015 03:37 PM (oz/VB)

He's not a socon though.

To me, the best moment in the debates was Fiorina's comment about PP. She is a bit stiff and cold but when she speaks on the topic (I'm thinking of other times I've seen her comment on it), she seems very passionate and genuinely outraged.

It's what I like about her the most. And it neutralizes that whole stupid "Want to defund PP? Why you must hate women!" meme.

Posted by: Donna and V. (sans ampersands) at September 17, 2015 03:41 PM (u0lmX)

287 2000: Feinstein beat Tom Campbell, 56-37
2004: Boxer beat Bill Jones, 58-38
2006: Feinstein beat Richard Mountjoy, 59-35
2010: Boxer beat Carly Fiorina, 52-42

Close is only good in horseshoes, but if Fiorina can increase the national Republican total by between 4 and 7 points, as she did in California, she'll win.

Posted by: Stephen Price Blair at September 17, 2015 03:41 PM (2lndx)

288 Carson doesn't do well in debates mostly because he is conservative campaigning for bottom up social change

Then he's fighting the right fight in the wrong venue. He shouldn't be running for President. He should be leading a revival movement of some sort.

Posted by: Brother Cavil, down with Eph 6:12-13 at September 17, 2015 03:41 PM (9krrF)

289 I see the execrable Sarah Kliff Voxes today with a response to Carly's heartfelt PP indictment last night. Surprise! Sarah disagrees, and she has local crime story Dr. Gosnell in her corner.

Posted by: MTF at September 17, 2015 03:41 PM (LISuA)

290 I can't imagine a statewide win for a republican in CA.

Posted by: CaliGirl at September 17, 2015 03:41 PM (BHl9S)

291 Am pretty sure the next POTUS just had his campaign kick-off scooped by a loudmouth on Amtrak.

Not kidding in the slightest. Uncle Joe can out-nasty and hold his own against anyone in a debate (ask Ryan). He will not hesitate to go after a woman, and get away with it (ask Palin).

And, although we don't like him, he'll tick at least some of the same boxes as Trump. Brash, uncensored, and such.

Posted by: Irony at September 17, 2015 03:42 PM (tFWWx)

292 >>>I'm sure you don't support Trump any more than I do. You're just getting tired of being yelled at.

wrong, i'm actually inclined in his favor. My annoyance with him is usually of the "you're blowing it, dude" type.

Posted by: ace at September 17, 2015 03:42 PM (dciA+)

293 @281

And the Obama template.

What if 2008 was a watershed moment in politics? What if actual positions are old school?

Posted by: Jollyroger at September 17, 2015 03:42 PM (t06LC)

294 Is Trump the 'Hail Mary' of candidates?

Is he doing so well because he is seen as the last desperate action by so many people who have elected these same caricatures into office over and over and realize that things are going horribly wrong?

I think he is. I don't think any politician is going to put up with the wailing caused by the media to significant cuts to government jobs, departments or spending - things that need to be done.

Trump is bold and brash enough that I think he might at least freaking try, which the Republicans can't even fake anymore. So as the economic elevator with the cords cut races to the bottom floor, I see Trump as that last attempt to jump up in the elevator at the first floor, hoping to miraculously survive the crash.

Posted by: Stateless Infidel at September 17, 2015 03:42 PM (AC0lD)

295 >>I'm involved in manufacturing, related in an ancillary way to the semifab industry. I remember 2001 -- it was a brutal year, in a time when the industry was much more violently cyclical than it is now.

>>Fiorina is right -- she led that company through a very tough time. She had to make some tough decisions, and had to lay some people off.

I was working for a pretty prominent Bay Area company at the time, was actually the third one I had worked for. HP was considered a dinosaur in the new internet age, a calculator company with about as much juice as an adult diaper company. And it had a board that was mixed with HP lifers and some new blood that hated each other.

Fiorina took what was probably a doomed to begin with job and proceeded to find that doom. If she hadn't done the Compaq acquisition the company still would have continued to circle the bowl. You don't stay at the top by making printers only. And HP laptops sucked.

She ultimately got chopped in a Board Room purge which happens a lot when the Board can't get along, can't fire each other so they look for a scapegoat. Again, not to say she was a great manager but the idea that she took some great company that was sailing into a bright future and cratered it is not the complete story at all.

Posted by: JackStraw at September 17, 2015 03:42 PM (OGm46)

296 I would comment, but I seem to have misplaced my #giveashit

Let it burn.

Posted by: USA at September 17, 2015 03:42 PM (tfM+W)

297 Her business record is... not good.

-------

Which might be good if she was running to run a business.

Washington was a terrible business person too.

I just don't care.

There is little correlation between being successful in business and being a good president/governor.

Posted by: SH at September 17, 2015 03:42 PM (gmeXX)

298 One barb aimed rather accurately at Trump last night was "We don't need an apprentice in the White House. We already have one". I don't remember who said that (a governor, I think), but it did register with me. The remark seemed intended to apply to all 3 "outsiders": Trump, Carson, and Fiorina.

That wouldn't work quite as well with Carly. Very few of "the public" know that she consulted for the CIA, Pentagon and the National Security Agency and had (has?) a secret (or maybe higher) security clearance, which tends to explain some of her knowledge about foreign affairs. Playing that card in the next debate on her would backfire, and the public would learn another thing they are mostly unaware of.

I liked her answers, and I think she's a shoo-in for VP if she doesn't get the nomination outright. She came ever so close to comparing Trump's excuse of bankruptcy for his corporations but not himself to the nation being a corporation he could bankrupt if he made similar choices in the Oval Office.

I think Trump is on a slow decline, which given his mouth, is exactly the right decline slope. He'll not be popular enough to run 3rd party even if he breaks his pledge by the time it's "too late".

Sorry for insulting all the Trump heads.

Posted by: jwb7605 at September 17, 2015 03:42 PM (M+9nV)

299 please. Cruz' presentation is a grab-bag of tricks
designed to elicit and emotive response, the stage whisper, the dramatic
pauses, the eyebrows peaked upwards almost as if in prayer.

Don't tell me he's not trying to push emotional buttons; he's trying, and way too hard. He's just failing to do so.

Posted by: ace at September 17, 2015 03:40 PM (dciA+)

Cruz is Cassandra. Only less cheerful and engaging.

Posted by: BurtTC at September 17, 2015 03:43 PM (TOk1P)

300 >>>Which is the Perot template, of course. And before him, PT Barnum.

it works until it no longer works.

Posted by: ace at September 17, 2015 03:43 PM (dciA+)

301 The Terminator ran in CA as a Republican and won.

Arnold ran as Trump, basically: he was a celebrity running against a couple of who-dats.

Posted by: Ian S. at September 17, 2015 03:43 PM (S+N7W)

302 and fucking Mother Theresa ... the commie midget. FFS.

What?

Posted by: FenelonSpoke at September 17, 2015 03:43 PM (dKQ1C)

303 261 "Trump may be the candidate best adapted to the current political climate."

I thought the same thing. He may be what we need now. He generates excitement.

Posted by: Idiocracy is a documentary at September 17, 2015 03:43 PM (2gGwJ)

304 "I'm no Carlita fan, but that's an unfair argument. Even in 2010 I don't think any Republican could have won. Remember, Meg Whitman also lost to Jerry Fucking Brown in that election. Jerry Brown!! That's how far gone CA is.

Posted by: Monsieur Mew Mew at September 17, 2015 03:38 PM (0LHZx)"

Maybe it's not fair, I remember she had that weird sheep ad, but as I recall the campaign for both her and whitman were completely incompetent once they had the nomination.

Didn't we have some Tea Party Rockstar we were all pulling for that she beat out in the primary? I can't even remember these guys any more.

OT but, Nevada, I will never forgive the party in Nevada, we had that thing sewn up and we nominated someone completely unelectable, it was worse than Delaware because Harry Reid would have been out on ass. I know we were all caught up in the tea party ferver, but it should have been obvious from the get go. As I recall we even had some reasonable non-RINO options in that race.

Posted by: Dr. Shatterhand at September 17, 2015 03:43 PM (n/ogz)

305 Polls and study groups are all bullshit anyways.

I could convince you you love your cat and want to marry your dog if you give me enough information and posed questions to lead you down that path.

After all, I convinced all you dummies that eggs and bacon make a wonderful breakfast to start your day off with.

Your welcome.....

Posted by: Zombie Ed Bernays at September 17, 2015 03:43 PM (D0NZx)

306 Fiorina forced a buy-out of Compaq, which was largely Digital Equipment which had the same business model as HP. The shareholders revolted against this, because the business models were by and large the same, pre-internet legacy technology stacks losing money. The layoffs were due to buying another huge stack of technology that duplicated what HP already had.

Buyouts like that can makes if your business is growing. You are buying out a competitor which you intend to liquidate increase market share, but it doesn't make sense if your core business is on a downward spiral and you need to retool. HP was saved by Mark Hurd, who eventually moved on to Oracle.

Posted by: Levin at September 17, 2015 03:43 PM (mgl7C)

307 But on policy or just basic facts...? Absolutely nothing. He just keeps promising that "very soon" he will be releasing this or that plan "which I think you'll be very, very happy with."

Posted by: ace at September 17, 2015 03:35 PM (dciA+)

---------------------

Ace - here's the thing - Trump is a businessman and a salesman first and foremost. The first thing a salesperson learns is - don't get into the weeds when trying to sell. If you have to discuss details, you lose.

You can discuss details after you make the sale.

Posted by: Stay out da bushes at September 17, 2015 03:43 PM (uRumV)

308 I'll go ahead and say it. If Trump can win, I'm 100% for him, based on the hat alone.

He does need to prove to me that he is not completely batshit crazy though, which he has still yet to do.

Posted by: Jollyroger at September 17, 2015 03:43 PM (t06LC)

309 Again, not to say she was a great manager but the idea that she took some great company that was sailing into a bright future and cratered it is not the complete story at all.
Posted by: JackStraw at September 17, 2015 03:42 PM (OGm46)

That's definitely a point worth repeating. HP was not in a good position before Carly, and really isn't in a much better on now (Although, the my buddies at HP all seem to like Meg Whitman and think she's making the right moves... so far).

That being said, saying "I came in to a shitty situation and wasn't able to fix it" is not really something to run on.

Posted by: mynewhandle at September 17, 2015 03:44 PM (AkOaV)

310
I wager Trump wins the nomination.

I'll take that wager.
Posted by: SH

Remember, you lost that Perry bet.

Might want to walk away from the table while you still have cab fair.

Posted by: Laurie David's Cervix at September 17, 2015 03:44 PM (kdS6q)

311 Don't tell me he's not trying to push emotional buttons; he's trying, and way too hard. He's just failing to do so.

I don't think he's very good at it. Like I said, the toolbox he's using would have worked fine 20 years ago as a supplement to the rest. But now that reason's in full eclipse it's simply not enough. That's a sad thing and I think we're otherwise on the same page, but unless it changes Cruz isn't going to get to the finish line right now.

Posted by: Brother Cavil, down with Eph 6:12-13 at September 17, 2015 03:44 PM (9krrF)

312 BackwardsBoy @ 212: "While DT isn't my first pick, I want him out there pushing the issues that are being ignored by the elites..."

Yes, like in this debate: We got to focus on the important issues like "Mr. Trump said this mean thing about your face, would you like to respond?" Or: "Mr. Trump made an assholish comment about your wife -- how does that make you feel?" And even: "Do you think a crazy frothing clown like Trump should have his finger on the nuclear trigger?"

Posted by: Pastafarian at September 17, 2015 03:44 PM (LqrRo)

313 One does one's humble best.

Posted by: alexthechick - Yeah I give up at September 17, 2015 03:36 PM (mf5HN)

*rolls eyes*

Posted by: Mikey NTH - Autumnal Enormities have Arrived at the Outrage Outlet! at September 17, 2015 03:44 PM (hLRSq)

314
So Beck had some Nobody on his show today who wrote a piece trying to explain who is supporting Trump.

Glenn says: Who are these people? Either they're racists or they're just blind supporters of the jersey [Beck's point on jerseys was incoherent]. Are they tea party types? I hope not, because if they are I want nothing to do with the tea party.

Posted by: Soothsayer rose above the noise and confusion just to get a glimpse beyond the illusion at September 17, 2015 03:44 PM (oz/VB)

315 That bit where Christie said show the audience and he asked who thinks their kids will do better and not a single person raised their ckufing hand was pretty good stuff.

Posted by: Dack Thrombosis at September 17, 2015 03:44 PM (4ErVI)

316 wrong, i'm actually inclined in his favor. My annoyance with him is usually of the "you're blowing it, dude" type.

Could you elaborate on that? Your "you're blowing it" comments seem to be that he's showing no substance and no policy.

So, other than a stick in the eye of the establishment, what is his actual appeal to you?

Posted by: Bandersnatch, Opus/Bill the Cat 2016 at September 17, 2015 03:44 PM (JtwS4)

317 The thing was, HP was run like a club. By tech-industry standards it'd been around forever. Carly was not an engineer and so much hate rained down from the old guard.

DEC's gone. Data General's gone. Compaq got eaten by HP. Tektronix got eaten too, though it still exists as a brand.

Posted by: JEM (or whatevs) at September 17, 2015 03:44 PM (o+SC1)

318 My thoughts exactly, i know some like Rand prefer the flat tax because they think the fair tax gives govt too much leeway to play games, but that's going to be the case with any tax pan, including the flat tax. And i really think that taking away govt's power to confiscate money by force would solve about 2/3rds of the problems we currently have with govt overreach.

Posted by: All Teh Meh at September 17, 2015 03:32 PM (VviqM)

I would prefer a federal sales tax but only if the federal income tax is totally done away with. This would require a Constitutional amendment to repeal the XVI and implement the federal sales tax and to ban any federal income tax - both elements have to be present in the amendment. I highly doubt this would ever get done, so as far as I'm concerned the Fair Tax is a non-starter.

Posted by: ThePrimordialOrderedPair at September 17, 2015 03:45 PM (zc3Db)

319 >>he gives the same stagey excerpts from his stump speech.

Lots of them do that. Nobody repeats like politicians.

But the truth is 95% of America doesn't pay attention to this stuff like we do and they sure as hell don't do it before Labor Day, thus The Donald.

For a lot of people this was the first they've really seen of Dondi on the big stage.

Posted by: JackStraw at September 17, 2015 03:45 PM (OGm46)

320
Jeb keeps hanging around, hanging around.

(insert tense movie music here)

Posted by: Guy Mohawk at September 17, 2015 03:45 PM (ODxAs)

321 The odd thing about Cali is that while Democrat controlled we elected a bunch of of Republican Governors.The people seem to know that the Dems are bad at ruling But that really hasn't worked out so well here in Kali- Fornia

Posted by: Tinfoilbaby at September 17, 2015 03:45 PM (Ii765)

322 As long as Trump running has buried Jeb and some of the other RINOs, then I might die a happy man....yeah probably not

Posted by: Nevergiveup at September 17, 2015 03:45 PM (gf8BH)

323 But on policy or just basic facts...? Absolutely nothing. He just keeps promising that "very soon" he will be releasing this or that plan "which I think you'll be very, very happy with."

I grok that, I really do. But I don't see any of the other candidates offering up specifics either. It's just not time yet and we're still a long way out from Nov '016. Plus, he still has his business to run (or at least oversee).

You need sound principles to be successful. IMO, Trump should say something to this effect to blunt the criticism: "Whatever I decide to do will be guided by my goal to make us great again, and I'll find good people to make that happen when I'm elected."

Back when I was working, the successful people I worked for all had a similar basic philosophy. Just substitute "company" for "country."

Posted by: BackwardsBoy at September 17, 2015 03:45 PM (LUgeY)

324 Fiorina forced a buy-out of Compaq, which was largely Digital Equipment which had the same business model as HP. The shareholders revolted against this, because the business models were by and large the same, pre-internet legacy technology stacks losing money. The layoffs were due to buying another huge stack of technology that duplicated what HP already had.

-----

What does any of that have to do with being President?

Posted by: SH at September 17, 2015 03:45 PM (gmeXX)

325 " eyebrows peaked upwards almost as if in prayer. "

I think part of that is just his eyebrows. He always looks vaguely concerned. You probably haven't, but have you ever watched a post game show with Jeff Bannister? He always seems like he's about to burst into tears at any second. It's weird. I think Cruz' eyebrows have a similar issue.

Posted by: Lauren at September 17, 2015 03:45 PM (bYGAR)

326 298 One barb aimed rather accurately at Trump last night was "We don't need an apprentice in the White House. We already have one". I don't remember who said that (a governor, I think), but it did register with me. The remark seemed intended to apply to all 3 "outsiders": Trump, Carson, and Fiorina.

IMO, there's a certain pop culture ignorance in that comment. Trump picked the Apprentice, he wasn't the Apprentice.

That's like saying Simon Cowell was the American Idol.

Posted by: Bevel Lemelisk at September 17, 2015 03:46 PM (dmQI5)

327 Remember, you lost that Perry bet.

Might want to walk away from the table while you still have cab fair.

-----

Remind me again - what was that Perry bet?

I'll still take the under on Trump winning the nomination.

Posted by: SH at September 17, 2015 03:46 PM (gmeXX)

328 What?

Posted by: FenelonSpoke at September 17, 2015 03:43 PM (dKQ1C)

Kasich's choice.

Posted by: ThePrimordialOrderedPair at September 17, 2015 03:46 PM (zc3Db)

329 So !Jeb! is actually winning?

Posted by: andycanuck at September 17, 2015 03:40 PM (+W1gD)

Gope has already written next August's headlines. Only they know. You'll just have to watch and find out!

After this commercial break with a message from our sponsor, Taco Bell.

Posted by: BurtTC at September 17, 2015 03:46 PM (TOk1P)

330 All Republican candidates did well. The question was from whom would Carly pull votes and that question is answered.

Posted by: bour3 at September 17, 2015 03:46 PM (5x3+2)

331 i think carly's HP problems are real, even though I don't know them all, but mynewhandle seems to be on the right track.

if I were her, I would simply this and excuse this by claiming, perhaps a bit simplistically and dishonestly, that she made ONE BAD CALL, the acquisition of Compaq, and that caused most of her subsequent problems, and I'd dress that all up as a Learning Moment about things seeming too good to be true and being cautious about overcommitment and etc.

I think she could probably pull that off, and the public, which doesn't really want to get into the details of her history there, would probably LIKE to have things simplified to "I made one bad call, buying Compaq, and that caused a series of problems." People like things being simplified. Seriously.

But she has to deal with this somehow.

Posted by: ace at September 17, 2015 03:46 PM (dciA+)

332 That wouldn't work quite as well with Carly. Very few of "the public"
know that she consulted for the CIA, Pentagon and the National Security
Agency and had (has?) a secret (or maybe higher) security clearance,
which tends to explain some of her knowledge about foreign affairs.
Playing that card in the next debate on her would backfire, and the
public would learn another thing they are mostly unaware of.

So you're saying she's really plugged in to the DC apparatus.

Interesting.

Posted by: Methos at September 17, 2015 03:47 PM (ZbV+0)

333 ...
I was working for a pretty prominent Bay Area company at the time, was actually the third one I had worked for. HP was considered a dinosaur in the new internet age, a calculator company with about as much juice as an adult diaper company. And it had a board that was mixed with HP lifers and some new blood that hated each other.
...
Posted by: JackStraw at September 17, 2015 03:42 PM (OGm46)

I was, at the time, devastated that HP (or Agilent, as it spun off) was unable to bring the world's best 8 1/2 digit GPIB multimeter to the country as a common kitchen/household appliance.

Posted by: jwb7605 at September 17, 2015 03:47 PM (M+9nV)

334 Trump has name recognition and gets a lot of press, he may be in for the long haul, it will be interesting to see what happens if he drops to 3rd in the republican polls.

Posted by: Dr Spank at September 17, 2015 03:47 PM (TJCSB)

335 Huh. I knew Mother T. was rather short, as are some of the other commenters here ( looks sideways at AtC) but I didn't know she was a Commie.

Posted by: kraken at September 17, 2015 03:47 PM (sdxPm)

336 "One barb aimed rather accurately at Trump last night was "We don't need
an apprentice in the White House. We already have one". I don't
remember who said that (a governor, I think), but it did register with
me."

Scott Walker said that.

This is why 16 people is too many. I would venture that of the 8 minutes that Walker got last night, nearly everybody commenting on this board would agree with nearly everything he said, and how he said it. Yet, being strong, steady, and competent isn't flashy and emotional enough.

I just hope that the whispers of donor panic don't derail him before the end of the year. The guy has the best conservative record of actually doing things in the face of tremendous opposition of any of them.

It would be the biggest coup of the primary season for the Democrats if they manage to get Scott Walker picked off. Because all that guy does is beat the shit out of Democrats.

Posted by: trumpetdaddy at September 17, 2015 03:47 PM (ljZD2)

337 That being said, saying "I came in to a shitty situation and wasn't able to fix it" is not really something to run on.

I did it in MA and I won the nomination!

Posted by: Mitt Romney at September 17, 2015 03:48 PM (dmQI5)

338 >>To me, the best moment in the debates was Fiorina's comment about PP. She is a bit stiff and cold but when she speaks on the topic (I'm thinking of other times I've seen her comment on it), she seems very passionate and genuinely outraged.

That's what is attractive about her. She is forceful and detailed. None of that "of course I support women's reproductive rights, but..." - she pinpoints what she find wrong w/PP and nails it down hard.

Posted by: Lizzy at September 17, 2015 03:48 PM (NOIQH)

339 >>>I grok that, I really do. But I don't see any of the other candidates offering up specifics either. It's just not time yet and we're still a long way out from Nov '016. Plus, he still has his business to run (or at least oversee).

several candidates have offered a tax plan.

most candidates offer more specifics (vague specifics, to be sure) about what to do about ISIL. All Trump says is that he'll negotiate harder and "make the world respect us."

Posted by: ace at September 17, 2015 03:48 PM (dciA+)

340 2000: Feinstein beat Tom Campbell, 56-37
2004: Boxer beat Bill Jones, 58-38
2006: Feinstein beat Richard Mountjoy, 59-35
2010: Boxer beat Carly Fiorina, 52-42
2012: Feinstein beat Elizabeth Emken, 63-38.

Forgot 2012. Probably deliberately.

Posted by: Stephen Price Blair at September 17, 2015 03:48 PM (2lndx)

341 But she has to deal with this somehow.

------

What was wrong with her answer last night? Why get into the weeds on this?

Posted by: SH at September 17, 2015 03:48 PM (gmeXX)

342 Glenn says: Who are these people? Either they're racists or they're just blind supporters of the jersey [Beck's point on jerseys was incoherent]. Are they tea party types? I hope not, because if they are I want nothing to do with the tea party.

=========

Becoz Beck listeners are renowned for their probity and clear-sightedness

Posted by: Bigby's Fistful of Travelers Cheques at September 17, 2015 03:48 PM (3ZtZW)

343 Carson is a total non-entity. A place holder.

It's silly to even consider him at all. Pure vanity run on his part.

He's the great black Republican hope to all the Colin Bowel white guilters in the GOPe. I know, I know, I must preface my comment with a .... he's the smartest doctor EVAR and he's the nicest man...EVAR.

Carson is a paper wall, easily torn down by the GOPe and the Democrats when they want him gone and they will want him gone.

Trump is a steel wall with reinforced concrete.

Posted by: Misfortune & Pestilence at September 17, 2015 03:48 PM (jSTDs)

344 wrong, i'm actually inclined in his favor. My annoyance with him is usually of the "you're blowing it, dude" type.

Posted by: ace at September 17, 2015 03:42 PM (dciA+)

You do realize how hard this position will be to explain to the "paid thinkers" over Cosmopolitans on the Upper East Side?

They're going to think you've been spending too much time hanging around us flyover bumpkins.

Posted by: jwest at September 17, 2015 03:49 PM (Zs4uk)

345
Remind me again - what was that Perry bet?
Posted by: SH

You bet me that Perry would do as good or better than he did in 2012.

Posted by: Laurie David's Cervix at September 17, 2015 03:49 PM (kdS6q)

346 I'd accept Trump as VP if he puts a billion of his own dollars into the campaign to counter Soros and the leftie billionaires.

Posted by: Naes at September 17, 2015 03:49 PM (Ypc8j)

347 Obama has never fixed anything and he's a 2 termer.

Posted by: Dr Spank at September 17, 2015 03:49 PM (TJCSB)

348 Why you no like Heb? I hear him say last night Justice Roberts is doing a good job.

Posted by: wth - sprechen zie Espanol at September 17, 2015 03:49 PM (wAQA5)

349 I have to say it... when I see Cruz, I hear ominous organ music, and think of dreary castles in the Balkans.

Posted by: kraken at September 17, 2015 03:49 PM (sdxPm)

350 "But I don't see any of the other candidates offering up specifics either"

Walker - specific plan on Obamacare repeal and replace. Specific plan on Iran deal. Specific plan on fundamentally altering Democrat power/fundraising base with labor unions.

Jesus. This information is out there.

Posted by: trumpetdaddy at September 17, 2015 03:50 PM (ljZD2)

351 You bet me that Perry would do as good or better than he did in 2012.
Posted by: Laurie David's Cervix at September 17, 2015 03:49 PM (kdS6q)

------

Well did he have a complete screw up at one of these debates? So I'd say he performed better.

What do I owe you?

Posted by: SH at September 17, 2015 03:50 PM (gmeXX)

352 Huh. I knew Mother T. was rather short, as are some of the other commenters here ( looks sideways at AtC) but I didn't know she was a Commie.

A lying, thieving, Albanian dwarf.

Posted by: Zombie Christopher Hitchens at September 17, 2015 03:50 PM (JtwS4)

353 324 Fiorina forced a buy-out of Compaq, which was largely Digital Equipment which had the same business model as HP. The shareholders revolted against this, because the business models were by and large the same, pre-internet legacy technology stacks losing money. The layoffs were due to buying another huge stack of technology that duplicated what HP already had.

-----

What does any of that have to do with being President?
Posted by: SH at September 17, 2015 03:45 PM (gmeXX)

It is generally cited as an overall issue of judgment, and the ability to listen to and properly evaluate the information provided to her by those around her.

Posted by: Insomniac at September 17, 2015 03:50 PM (2Ojst)

354 >>> I might die a happy man....yeah probably not

Everybody dies
frustrated and sad
and that is beautiful

Posted by: Bigby's Fistful of Travelers Cheques at September 17, 2015 03:50 PM (3ZtZW)

355 @316

Immigration. Like it or not, as an electorate we're being replaced. At the current rate all this other conservative grab bag stuff won't matter in a generation or so as the ruling class will have just brought in an electorate more to their liking.

I don't know if Trump will do half of what he says he'll do, but at least he has the decency to lie to me about it.

Posted by: Jollyroger at September 17, 2015 03:50 PM (t06LC)

356 That's definitely a point worth repeating. HP was not in a good position before Carly, and really isn't in a much better on now (Although, the my buddies at HP all seem to like Meg Whitman and think she's making the right moves... so far).

Carly also had nothing to do with the weird buyout of Palm on obvious underwear gnomes planning (we're gonna put WebOS in printers!), among many other antics out of that company.

My $170 color LaserJet is great though, even if I think that at that price a second shoe is waiting in the wings.

Posted by: Ian S. at September 17, 2015 03:50 PM (S+N7W)

357 Jeb, the prairie-dog turd in the GOP's butt

Posted by: boulder terlit hobo at September 17, 2015 03:50 PM (mp0xH)

358 >>>Which is the Perot template, of course. And before him, PT Barnum.

it works until it no longer works.

Posted by: ace at September 17, 2015 03:43 PM (dciA+)

Yup. If I had to guess, I would say Gope is going to find a way to disqualify the Donald before the real votes get cast, and he will indeed, run as an independent.

Posted by: BurtTC at September 17, 2015 03:51 PM (TOk1P)

359 So, other than a stick in the eye of the establishment, what is his actual appeal to you?

Can't speak for Ace, but for me, that's all that matters at this point.

Posted by: rickb223 at September 17, 2015 03:51 PM (Z7b/F)

360 So you're saying she's really plugged in to the DC apparatus.
Interesting.
Posted by: Methos at September 17, 2015 03:47 PM (ZbV+0)

(link goes to CNN):
http://tinyurl.com/npw4op4

It would be interesting to see her debate "I don't know the digital stuff" candidate Hillary.

I like her because she's plugged into and understands the apparatus, but is not a part of the apparatus.

Posted by: jwb7605 at September 17, 2015 03:51 PM (M+9nV)

361 hahahahahahahaha. This is beyond HILARIOUS.

If you don't know what a pyrrhic victory is, google it.

Great job in the "face debate" Carly, you nailed it!!!

I am curious Ace, et al., rather than just say Trump was "weak" on "facts" and "policy" can you actually point to some specifics??

Posted by: prescient11 at September 17, 2015 03:51 PM (W7w/T)

362 Internal numbers. *mic drop*

Posted by: ... at September 17, 2015 03:51 PM (fscqy)

363 He desperately needs to be filmed going on an unscripted drunken rant. Come on, guys, let's make this happen.

He needs a tattoo!

Posted by: notsothoreau at September 17, 2015 03:51 PM (5HBd1)

364 It is generally cited as an overall issue of judgment, and the ability to listen to and properly evaluate the information provided to her by those around her.
Posted by: Insomniac at September 17, 2015 03:50 PM (2Ojst)

------

I guess it just doesn't tell me much about her ideology or how she would do as President.

Posted by: SH at September 17, 2015 03:52 PM (gmeXX)

365 Whhhheeeeeeee

Posted by: DJIA at September 17, 2015 03:52 PM (ZbV+0)

366 Dow going down? Not sure why, but this shit is not my strong point

Posted by: Nevergiveup at September 17, 2015 03:52 PM (gf8BH)

367
Ace, how many specific plans proposed by candidates ever get implemented?

0.

It sounds nice, yes. It reassures one that the candidate is versed in a topic, yes. But none of their on-the-campaign plans ever come to fruition in office.

Posted by: Soothsayer rose above the noise and confusion just to get a glimpse beyond the illusion at September 17, 2015 03:52 PM (oz/VB)

368 There was a meme the other day that had a picture of Tommy Lee Jones and it said "Tommy Lee Jones always looks like his son just told him he is interested in becoming a professional unicycler."

In Cruz's case it's more he always looks like his toddler told him that they just came back from pooping in the potty.

Posted by: Lauren at September 17, 2015 03:52 PM (bYGAR)

369 Ok I'll play. From the Tepid Air link, they have two polls. One pre debate and one post-debate by admitted GOP'ers who watched the debate. ( really, they called people that late at night after a three hour debate?? )

The post admits these polls are outliers... the FIRST polls since JUNE that don't have Trump in a healthy lead. One poll with Carson at 24% was 600 people in Michigan... that hotbed of Republicans and Conservatives! And the second poll was somehow taken overnight , by confirmed GOP voters who admitted to watching a 3 hour debate ( what about the JV debate?? ) and they answered their phones. Riiiight.

I appreciate the fun for those who love the angst, but I wouldn't go wondering unless you can find Trump supporters prior to this last debate that have switched. I'd lay late percentage in the margin of error. NOTHING that SMOD/Trump folks want changed at all last night. The GOPe is still screwed.... no matter, somehow they are pumping Carson's numbers up and I find that highly questionable ... but whatev.

Posted by: Yip at September 17, 2015 03:52 PM (e7T6D)

370 But on policy or just basic facts...? Absolutely nothing. He just keeps promising that "very soon" he will be releasing this or that plan "which I think you'll be very, very happy with."

Posted by: ace at September 17, 2015 03:35 PM (dciA+)
_____________________

That's not entirely true. Trump did release his plan for tackling the illegal immigration problem.

Among the specifics of the plan were the following measures:

--triple the number of ICE officers
--require use of E-verify nationwide
--mandatory return of all criminal aliens
--end "catch and release" practice; require that all apprehended illegals be detained
--defund sanctuary cities
--enhance penalties for overstaying a visa
--end birthright citizenship

There was more, but you can't say he offered no specifics.
You may not like them, you may not think they will work, but he put them out there.

Posted by: TrivialPursuer at September 17, 2015 03:52 PM (a31sM)

371 Arnold was soooo Republican he had a Democrat as his chief of staff.

301 >> Arnold ran as Trump, basically: he was a celebrity running against a couple of who-dats.

Also, this.

Posted by: GnuBreed at September 17, 2015 03:52 PM (gyKtp)

372 Trump fading!!!

Trump fading!!!

Trump fading!!!

Keep up the wish-casting folks. The powers that be has a new NYT poll of 5 idiots that shows Huckabee surging!!!!

LOL

Posted by: prescient11 at September 17, 2015 03:52 PM (W7w/T)

373 I am curious Ace, et al., rather than just say Trump was "weak" on "facts" and "policy" can you actually point to some specifics??

-----

See vaccines and autism.

Posted by: SH at September 17, 2015 03:53 PM (gmeXX)

374 I believe last night's performance was a serious blow to Trump's candidacy. I agree with Ace that we'll now find out a lot more about him as a man -- one way or the other.

His surpassing appeal has been his willingness to be scandalously blunt and anti-establishment, as well as commandingly confident in ways that suggested nothing and no one would intimidate him or deter him from his objectives. The unattractive or uninformed aspects of his persona were glistened over by these qualities. But last night he undermined himself on all counts. He took a beating from Fiorina (which he didn't have to take) and otherwise appeared disjointed and not in command of himself or the scene. He was not the Trump who was singular and important to the race. He was somewhat chastened by Fiorina's ridiculous act of defiant-aggrievedness, suddenly looked like he cared what people thought about him, and just seemed to play along with everybody else but without their political knowledge or skills.

My advice would be to bear down on some issues other than immigration and at the same time kick more establishment and conventional-thinking (and media) ass. Don't let up -- especially in the debates. Be the candidate who doesn't take shit or stupidity or cowardly thinking.

Posted by: rrpjr at September 17, 2015 03:53 PM (s/yC1)

375 Great rebuttals to my point by BurtTC @ 182 and ThePrimordialOrderedPair @ 183.

Paraphrasing: I'm dumb, and have pasta for brains.

Touche, gentlemen. Touche. I'm going to have to walk that one off. To quote Jerry Seinfeld: This is a real Algonquin Round Table.

Posted by: Pastafarian at September 17, 2015 03:53 PM (LqrRo)

376 most candidates offer more specifics (vague specifics, to be sure) about what to do about ISIL.

Carly was specific last night:

"We have spent probably 12 minutes talking about the past. Let's talk about the future. We need the strongest military on the face of the planet, and everyone has to know it. And, specifically, what that means is we need about 50 Army brigades, we need about 36 Marine battalions, we need somewhere between 300, and 350 naval ships, we need to upgrade every leg of the nuclear triad..."

Posted by: Bandersnatch, Opus/Bill the Cat 2016 at September 17, 2015 03:53 PM (JtwS4)

377 Walker - specific plan on Obamacare repeal and replace. Specific plan on Iran deal. Specific plan on fundamentally altering Democrat power/fundraising base with labor unions.

Jesus. This information is out there.
Posted by: trumpetdaddy at September 17, 2015 03:50 PM (ljZD2)

__________

It's so cute how you're so fucking naive and gullible.

Posted by: Monsieur Mew Mew at September 17, 2015 03:53 PM (0LHZx)

378
What do I owe you?
Posted by: SH

We never set stakes, so just call it a wager of Klingon Honor.

Posted by: Laurie David's Cervix at September 17, 2015 03:53 PM (kdS6q)

379 >>>I am curious Ace, et al., rather than just say Trump was "weak" on "facts" and "policy" can you actually point to some specifics??

um, no, since he has offered no specifics for three months, so I'd just cite his every public utterance.

How about YOU offer the one or two specifics (apart from his sometimes sketchy understanding of Jeff Sessions' immigration plan) you're claiming he's presented?

Posted by: ace at September 17, 2015 03:53 PM (dciA+)

380 If Jindal is background noise, I wish he's turn up the volume. Aside from his foolishness in calling out Trump in the way he did, Jindal is a very smart man. He articulated the anger he feels at the do nothing Republicans. I don't hear all of the other candidates doing that. Also, he isn't PC about radical Islam.

Posted by: FenelonSpoke at September 17, 2015 03:53 PM (dKQ1C)

381 Trump blew it for me with his opening statement, when he wasted his time attacking Rand Paul as a loser who shouldn't even be on the stage. Good grief.

I wish he had said something about why HE was there and doing so well in the polls. I wish he had said something about the chasm that has developed between a bipartisan ruling elite and the people. I wish he had said something about the diseased atmosphere that makes it impossible to even discuss major questions like immigration without being stifled by the media and corporate donors.

Posted by: Margarita DeVille at September 17, 2015 03:53 PM (cN9Sk)

382 I threw Carly a bone last night. A dog bone!! BOOM!

Posted by: DONALD TRUMP at September 17, 2015 03:53 PM (TJCSB)

383 Great rebuttals to my point by BurtTC @ 182 and ThePrimordialOrderedPair @ 183.

Paraphrasing: I'm dumb, and have pasta for brains.

Touche, gentlemen. Touche. I'm going to have to walk that one off.
To quote Jerry Seinfeld: This is a real Algonquin Round Table.

Posted by: Pastafarian at September 17, 2015 03:53 PM (LqrRo)

Troll

Posted by: BurtTC at September 17, 2015 03:54 PM (TOk1P)

384 Among the specifics of the plan were the following measures:

--triple the number of ICE officers
--require use of E-verify nationwide
--mandatory return of all criminal aliens
--end "catch and release" practice; require that all apprehended illegals be detained
--defund sanctuary cities
--enhance penalties for overstaying a visa
--end birthright citizenship

------

I'll give you all that.

My question is this.

Why is the federal government funding any cities - let alone sanctuary ones?

Posted by: SH at September 17, 2015 03:54 PM (gmeXX)

385 prescient11, I see you're a little late -- I hope George Soros doesn't dock your pay. Hurry, now: Shill, shill away. Make up for lost time.

Posted by: Pastafarian at September 17, 2015 03:54 PM (LqrRo)

386 See vaccines and autism.
Posted by: SH at September 17, 2015 03:53 PM (gmeXX)

Yeah I was very disappointed to see Trump step into that one. THAT worries me

Posted by: Nevergiveup at September 17, 2015 03:54 PM (gf8BH)

387
Candidates say I'll Do This and I'll Do That, and none of it ever happens.

Trump lies to me in generalities instead of specifics. The difference is that I like Trump's empty generalities.

Posted by: Soothsayer rose above the noise and confusion just to get a glimpse beyond the illusion at September 17, 2015 03:54 PM (oz/VB)

388 They were weaknesses of not projecting a command of air about the facts and policy.-ace

Late to the party.

Trump was ill prepared. Trump was rude and condescending. There is a time for that. Last night wasn't the time or place.

Posted by: Misanthropic Humanitarian at September 17, 2015 03:54 PM (J3phO)

389
Prepositions are not my strong point.

Posted by: Levin at September 17, 2015 03:55 PM (mgl7C)

390 I believe California has the last primary. It is so over by the time I cast my wasted vote here. if we voted according to population we would be first though.

Posted by: Tinfoilbaby at September 17, 2015 03:55 PM (Ii765)

391 I don't think a national poll showing Carly tied for the lead, taken just hours after she has a well-received debate performance, means a whole lot in the grand scheme of things.

Posted by: Disgruntled at September 17, 2015 03:55 PM (WNYv6)

392 It's also cute how people who rail against Boner/Turtle for acting like Democrats think Walker or Jeb or Carlita will act any differently as president. Turtle and Boner swore up and down they'd fight Obamacare. They get into office and what did they do? Fuck all.

But yea Walker has a plan to repeal Obamacare. LOL. They're laughing at you.

Posted by: Monsieur Mew Mew at September 17, 2015 03:55 PM (0LHZx)

393 I'm glad Trump is fading and predicted he would flame out after third debate but I will admit he did open the door to allow others to speak on subjects that are usually danced around.

Posted by: Max Rockatansky at September 17, 2015 03:55 PM (Q3fP7)

394 Here's one way that Carly deals with HP, get the facts out. It's particularly effective when one of the HP Board members who was actually there gives it. As I said, HP was going down when she took over and this was right in the middle of the dot.com bubble burst when a lot of companies didn't just lay off employees, they disappeared altogether.

>>In the months and years after Carly left the Board of Directors remained dysfunctional The Board members who plotted Carlys ouster eventually resigned after an embarrassing investigation by Congress

Oppsie.

http://tinyurl.com/owjfg52

Yea, I think a strong endorsement from Perkins, who is a legend in Silicon Valley, is kind of a good thing.

Posted by: JackStraw at September 17, 2015 03:55 PM (OGm46)

395 Posted by: rrpjr at September 17, 2015 03:53 PM (s/yC1)

Trump comes across in shorter debates. He's rather a sound byte candidate.

Posted by: FenelonSpoke at September 17, 2015 03:55 PM (dKQ1C)

396
All Trump does is give the middle finger to the political establishment. And he does an EXCELLENT job at it.

So this is why people like him.

But no, he has given no specifics on his positions, apart from utterances like he'll be "so good at the military it will make your head spin".

Posted by: dan-O at September 17, 2015 03:55 PM (ByqK7)

397
The Fed decided it wouldn't raise rates after all, they may never until after the 2016 IMO. Anyway, Wall Street something something, reasons or something.

Posted by: Guy Mohawk at September 17, 2015 03:55 PM (ODxAs)

398 Fiorina will get better and better as she goes along. Damn, imagine what a Jindal/Fiorina ticket would do!!!
Posted by: Diogenes at September 17, 2015 02:57 PM (r65B3)

I'vetry not to imagine dream tickets because Fate is a fickle bitchand my dreams are invariably crushed.

Posted by: troyriser at September 17, 2015 03:55 PM (f56b1)

399 i didn't think Trump was very rude, compared to prior performances. I thought he was fairly polite (for Trump, you understand).

Posted by: ace at September 17, 2015 03:56 PM (dciA+)

400 So, other than a stick in the eye of the establishment, what is his actual appeal to you?

Can't speak for Ace, but for me, that's all that matters at this point.

Posted by: rickb223 at September 17, 2015 03:51 PM (Z7b/F)

Yep. Kill the Republican Party. Once we're done with that, we'll figure out what to do next. But that's Task #1.

Posted by: BurtTC at September 17, 2015 03:56 PM (TOk1P)

401 Trump was especially childish in the debate.

I could understand that sort of juvenile taunting early on, but it's not getting close to the main event and Trump is acting like an imbecile.

Yes, I like Trump's stance on illegal immigration, but I have to think he's taking this at least somewhat serious.

Posted by: Coolio at September 17, 2015 03:56 PM (T7owr)

402 >>> Playing that card in the next debate on her would backfire

Its one of the reasons I don't like her - not that she's "an apprentice" or even that she's connected and knowledgeable, but that she's a spook *and* a tech-oriented one. Its like putting Google execs in the WH. Sorry, but I want that domestic spying shit cut right out and she's emphatically *not* the one for that job.

Posted by: Bigby's Fistful of Travelers Cheques at September 17, 2015 03:56 PM (3ZtZW)

403 @386

Same here. That was a Tardasil moment. Right until Carson kinda bailed him out.

Posted by: Jollyroger at September 17, 2015 03:56 PM (t06LC)

404 Why is the federal government funding any cities - let alone sanctuary ones?

Because our dying country is a broken failed Republic that runs on imaginary money.

Posted by: Bevel Lemelisk at September 17, 2015 03:56 PM (dmQI5)

405 "It's so cute how you're so fucking naive and gullible."

What the hell does that even mean? Someone said that none of the candidates have offered specifics. I mentioned how one candidate, at least, has.

And you call names. WTF? Is this 3rd grade?

Posted by: trumpetdaddy at September 17, 2015 03:56 PM (ljZD2)

406 prescient11, I see you're a little late -- I hope
George Soros doesn't dock your pay. Hurry, now: Shill, shill away.
Make up for lost time.

Posted by: Pastafarian at September 17, 2015 03:54 PM (LqrRo)

Troll

Posted by: BurtTC at September 17, 2015 03:57 PM (TOk1P)

407 Posted by: Pastafarian at September 17, 2015 03:54 PM (LqrRo)

Why would a Trump supporter be in the pay of George Soros?

Posted by: FenelonSpoke at September 17, 2015 03:57 PM (dKQ1C)

408 Ace

What specifics did Carlita offer? Or El Jeb? All i heard from them is "I'll work with Democrats to find bipartisan solutions" bullshit that really means "get the lube ready".

Posted by: Monsieur Mew Mew at September 17, 2015 03:58 PM (0LHZx)

409 Is this 3rd grade?

------

Since Ace's new standards, we have moved up to the 4th grade.

Posted by: SH at September 17, 2015 03:58 PM (gmeXX)

410 I guess it just doesn't tell me much about her ideology or how she would do as President.
Posted by: SH at September 17, 2015 03:52 PM (gmeXX)

No, maybe not.

But like I said upthread -- despite all of Romneys issues, he ran as "I'm a competent guy, I did really well in the business world, and I was able to do xyz when no one thought it was possible" and it was really hard to argue that he was anything other than highly successful in his career.

Carly on the other hand -- I mean, look... ideology and all of that is not really the most important thing with the LIVs. But hearing "she was, at best, mediocre as CEO of HP, but that should qualify her to be president" is not really a strong selling point.

And it's nothing personal, but like ace said -- she needs to get out in front of this and not act like everything was great at HP.

Especially when I can guarantee you that there are thousands of people who work at HP who will not take be afraid to talk about some of the bad decisions made under her tenure. And yeah, I guess the "I made one bad decision which snowballed" thing could work, but I don't know.

Doesn't speak well to competence. IF you're going to be an outsider coming in to politics later in life, you really want to have a 'story' about how you kicked ass and took names in your previous career.

Trump and Carson both have that story. I don't think Carly does.

Just my two cents at least.

Posted by: mynewhandle at September 17, 2015 03:58 PM (AkOaV)

411 But yea Walker has a plan to repeal Obamacare. LOL. They're laughing at you.
Posted by: Monsieur Mew Mew at September 17, 2015 03:55 PM (0LHZx)

You should really hone up on WI politics. Walker isn't just a Talker. He's done things no one thought were possible.

Posted by: Misanthropic Humanitarian at September 17, 2015 03:58 PM (J3phO)

412 I don't get the casino stuff, why was Trump running from something that was so obviously true?

Everyone knows Trump has gambling interests, why lie about wanting casinos in Florida?

Posted by: Coolio at September 17, 2015 03:58 PM (T7owr)

413
The people who hated Trump before the debate hate him even more today. Okay, we get it.

Posted by: Soothsayer rose above the noise and confusion just to get a glimpse beyond the illusion at September 17, 2015 03:58 PM (oz/VB)

414 407 Posted by: Pastafarian at September 17, 2015 03:54 PM (LqrRo)

Why would a Trump supporter be in the pay of George Soros?
Posted by: FenelonSpoke at September 17, 2015 03:57 PM (dKQ1C)

What does God need with a starship?

Posted by: Capt. James T. Kirk at September 17, 2015 03:58 PM (2Ojst)

415 "um, no, since he has offered no specifics for three months, so I'd just cite his every public utterance.

How about YOU offer the one or two specifics (apart from his sometimes sketchy understanding of Jeff Sessions' immigration plan) you're claiming he's presented?

Posted by: ace at September 17, 2015 03:53 PM (dciA+)"

That's 100% right, Ace i'm with you, I'm inclined to support him, kinda maybe sorta supporting him now, but the specifics are lacking. I too have watched all the town hall/speech things, and they are a ramble of mish/mash. Very entertaining, but short on any substance. He has indicated there are a few things coming, but he needs to get something new out pronto.

My preferred candidate was Rand, but he is finished, he doesn't even have the staying power of his dad. He is trying to bribe his way around election law in Kentucky, and he looks small and impotent when he goes after Trump. It's what I see, someone who had donated to his father, and have been 100% in his camp. He looks like a whiny little kid.

Posted by: Dr. Shatterhand at September 17, 2015 03:59 PM (n/ogz)

416 But like I said upthread -- despite all of Romneys issues, he ran as "I'm a competent guy, I did really well in the business world, and I was able to do xyz when no one thought it was possible" and it was really hard to argue that he was anything other than highly successful in his career.

-----

To be fair, I didn't give much of a shit about that either - and judging by the results - not enough did.

Posted by: SH at September 17, 2015 03:59 PM (gmeXX)

417 And it's nothing personal, but like ace said -- she needs to get out in front of this and not act like everything was great at HP.

Especially when I can guarantee you that there are thousands of people who work at HP who will not take be afraid to talk about some of the bad decisions made under her tenure. And yeah, I guess the "I made one bad decision which snowballed" thing could work, but I don't know.

Doesn't speak well to competence. IF you're going to be an outsider coming in to politics later in life, you really want to have a 'story' about how you kicked ass and took names in your previous career.

Trump and Carson both have that story. I don't think Carly does.

Just my two cents at least.
Posted by: mynewhandle

At least Carly didn't bankrupt HP 4 times like Trump did.

Posted by: Coolio at September 17, 2015 03:59 PM (T7owr)

418
Carson is a paper wall, easily torn down by the GOPe and the Democrats when they want him gone and they will want him gone.

I'm afraid so.

DC is a cesspool and is infinitely corrupt. It operates on extortion, bribes, personal destruction and outright criminality. If he can't be blackmailed to go along, he will be destroyed, blocked, and made irrelevant.

Posted by: Pappy O'Daniel at September 17, 2015 03:59 PM (oVJmc)

419 So Trump was rude. Let's punish him by electing Jeb. Yeah because Trump will be punished, not you and me. Do you think Trump's life will change when 30M illegals are given citizenship? Hell no. But yours will, a lot.

Posted by: Monsieur Mew Mew at September 17, 2015 03:59 PM (0LHZx)

420
Trump and Carson both have that story. I don't think Carly does.

Just my two cents at least.
Posted by: mynewhandle at September 17, 2015 03:58 PM (Ak

Some good points made there. But isn't H-P located in CA? If so, WTF does it matter? She isn't going to win CA anyway. Instead of hacked off people I would worry more about her relationship with Jesse Jackson and her Global Warming rhetoric

Posted by: Misanthropic Humanitarian at September 17, 2015 04:00 PM (J3phO)

421
Trump and Carson both have that story. I don't think Carly does.

Just my two cents at least.
Posted by: mynewhandle at September 17, 2015 03:58 PM (Ak

Some good points made there. But isn't H-P located in CA? If so, WTF does it matter? She isn't going to win CA anyway. Instead of hacked off people I would worry more about her relationship with Jesse Jackson and her Global Warming rhetoric

Posted by: Misanthropic Humanitarian at September 17, 2015 04:00 PM (J3phO)

422 Cruz' presentation is a grab-bag of tricks designed to elicit and
emotive response, the stage whisper, the dramatic pauses, the eyebrows
peaked upwards almost as if in prayer.

Don't tell me he's not trying to push emotional buttons; he's trying, and way too hard. He's just failing to do so.

I was thinking about that today. It may be a residue of his time from arguing in front of the court, or perhaps debate team. Regardless, it doesn't work on TV, where his affect is entirely artificial and contrived. He looks like Jim Bakker begging for another dollar.

It's a pity, because I like him otherwise.

I guess I'm down to Carly now.

Posted by: D. Trump at September 17, 2015 04:00 PM (LAe3v)

423 You miss the trees for the forest. Jeb still has $114M campaign chest, Trump is self funding and Hillary has $67M campaign chest. Blame Trump all you want, but America faces being ruled by two family dynasties or breaking from this pattern. Trump is the only one that can break shit cyclone of the Clinton/Bush vortex.

Posted by: Puddin Head at September 17, 2015 04:00 PM (oDCMR)

424 Posted by: Capt. James T. Kirk at September 17, 2015 03:58 PM (2Ojst)

Sorry, Capt Kirk. You must be stuck in the transport between worlds because I can't clearly hear what point you're trying to make.

Posted by: FenelonSpoke at September 17, 2015 04:00 PM (dKQ1C)

425 I'd say his immigration plan is pretty damn detailed.

But exactly where did he "fail" on either policy or facts IN THIS DEBATE?

IN THIS DEBATE, Carly said that she wouldn't talk to Putin. IN THIS DEBATE, Rubio called him a gangster. These positions on a major FOREIGN POLICY issue are insanity and ridiculous. And you think it's Trump's temper we should worry about. LOL

LOL. The wish-casting continues.

Oh noes, the anti-vax "concerns", you do realize that he got the only medical doctor on stage TO AGREE WITH HIS POINT that perhaps we should spread the dosages out.

Trump will get the pro and anti vax vote. Hilarious.

Posted by: prescient11 at September 17, 2015 04:00 PM (W7w/T)

426 399 i didn't think Trump was very rude, compared to prior performances. I thought he was fairly polite (for Trump, you understand).
Posted by: ace at September 17, 2015 03:56 PM (dciA+)

I had to cajole and coerce my wife into watching the debate last night, because Trump was in it.

At the end of the debate, she found Trump actually tolerable (YUGE, YUGE change), knew who Ben Carson is (and found him personable), and understands why I like Fiorina.

The downside is that she hadn't paid any attention to Jeb! and thought he was OK, too.

She also likes Marco Rubio.

Posted by: jwb7605 at September 17, 2015 04:00 PM (M+9nV)

427 At least Carly didn't bankrupt HP 4 times like Trump did.

Trump never claimed his gender was why he should be the nominee either.

Posted by: Bevel Lemelisk at September 17, 2015 04:01 PM (dmQI5)

428 Trump's campaign is like milk. It won't do well over time. Sunshine doesn't help it either.

Posted by: USA at September 17, 2015 04:01 PM (tfM+W)

429 "Immigration. Like it or not, as an electorate we're being replaced. At the current rate all this other conservative grab bag stuff won't matter in a generation or so as the ruling class will have just brought in an electorate more to their liking."

Right. This is why I won't budge from supporting Trump. Deport...Build the wall.

Read the Breitbart article, "Mark Zuckerberg fires warning shot at Donald Trump before the debate."

"Silicon Valley is giddy at the prospect of the "new American century." In fact, in a celebration of the emerging change brought to bear by four decades of record-high green card issuance, Google has launched a program called Code 2040 -whose name "refers to the year the population of minorities in the U.S. is expected to overtake whites."

Google is thrilled to destroy America and the American worker. Oh, make that white Americans and White American workers. They are such scum.

Posted by: Misfortune & Pestilence at September 17, 2015 04:01 PM (jSTDs)

430 Glenn says: Who are these people? Either they're racists or they're just blind supporters of the jersey [Beck's point on jerseys was incoherent]. Are they tea party types? I hope not, because if they are I want nothing to do with the tea party.

Posted by: Soothsayer rose above the noise and confusion just to get a glimpse beyond the illusion at September 17, 2015 03:44 PM (oz/VB)

-----------

Yeah, Beck is really little more than a functioning narcissistic alcoholic. As such he has embraced Mormonism to give him the support structure he needs to maintain his sobriety (which doesn't seem to be working).

As an alcoholic, it is fairly normal to see such people go through ups and downs with periods of both success and failure. He's clearly in a downhill slide now and trying to correct it by doing what he always does - seek attention. Attention can turn into ratings and ratings turn into money - which is all that matters to him - the money honey.

Posted by: Stay out da bushes at September 17, 2015 04:01 PM (uRumV)

431 Sorry, but I want that domestic spying shit cut right out and she's emphatically *not* the one for that job.

I want it cut out too, but Congress needs to do that, not POTUS.

Posted by: Ian S. at September 17, 2015 04:01 PM (S+N7W)

432 There are 3 or 4 candidates that there is just no hope for, but for the rest of them, they could rocket into the lead with one speech.

Why don't they realize that all it takes to capture the imagination of the public is one bold idea, with well articulated highlights that gets people talking.

Trump is going to build a wall. There is no doubt that if he wins, it will happen.

Now, what are the others going to do if they win?

Adjust the GDP .001% and rethink corn subsidies?

Yeah, that gets people to the polls.

Pick an issue and bet the farm on it. That's what leaders do.

Posted by: jwest at September 17, 2015 04:01 PM (Zs4uk)

433 "You should really hone up on WI politics. Walker isn't just a Talker. He's done things no one thought were possible."

Exactly. People run their mouths that they want conservative shit done. Walker has done some serious conservative shit, in the founding state of American progressivism. He has beaten the Dems like bitches that they are.

I guess even so-called "conservatives" are reality TV junkies now, just like the liberals. Substance doesn't matter, no?

Posted by: trumpetdaddy at September 17, 2015 04:01 PM (ljZD2)

434
Because if it were true, Trump would've admitted it. As you say, why lie??

Trump does not give a shit. He's owned up to everything he's done, why would he deny that charge by Juan Ellis?

You could tell by Trump's reaction he was genuinely shocked and offended by the accusation. Trump, a man with no scruples, is difficult to offend. Only a real insult would make Trump react like that.

Posted by: Soothsayer rose above the noise and confusion just to get a glimpse beyond the illusion at September 17, 2015 04:01 PM (oz/VB)

435
Any idea that Trump is some kind of secret democratic plant is right out the window after last night.
Tapper/MSM was definitely out to kill Trump.
When the MSM wants to turn an election, the bolster a lump, like McCain to lead him to the eventual slaughter later.
I recognize your mileage my vary on whether or not Trump would be a disaster as President. But I do not believe Trump is running as some kind of shill for the democrats. Too much energy was invested in trying to destroy him last night.
Now I suppose someone could make the assertion that the Dems and the establishment Republicans are really the same party and so it was a united effort to destroy him. I'm not really going there. Trump is right about what he is right about. What he is wrong about he isn't that wrong about. What he doesn't know, is, well, still a lot. Unfortunately he makes mean comments.
Now, lets be serious though, if I thought he was going to win and going to do half of what he said, I would forgive him his penchant for stupid remarks. So I'm not writing him off yet, but on not all up in that either.
I'm kind of upset over Carly. I like what she does when she presents herself. She and Trump both have the ability to handle the media's bullshit, using different styles. However, I don't think she's electable. I really don't.
I remember the commercials they ran against Romney about the company's he took over and the factory worker who got laid off and didn't have health insurance etc. Those commercials were effective for LIV's. There were bogus, but worked. Carly's Achilles heel is the same stuff, all the thousands of people who she laid off, lost their jobs to foreign workers, etc. Their stories will be real. There will be A LOT of them. And its true. She's a damn good retail politician, but its like she killed somebody or something. The dems would like nothing better to see her get the nomination. They can just re run all the commercials they ran against her in Cali. I predictMSM goes soft on Carly through the nomination period. In fact you'll see a puffy NYT piece come out atsome point soon, like they did with McCain. Its predictable.

Posted by: simplemind at September 17, 2015 04:01 PM (5vV+V)

436 Ive been saying it will be Jeb all along. Every month the GOPe will have a shiny object. Last month it was Carson, this month it's Carlita.

In the end though Jeb will still be there. And he will win the nomination and either lose to Hillary or win and govern like Hillary.

But hey, whatever, as long as that not nice man Trump is taught a lesson.

Posted by: Monsieur Mew Mew at September 17, 2015 04:02 PM (0LHZx)

437 When I think about the debate last night the first thing that comes to mind is throwing cats into a bag and listen to them fight. That was the whole reasoning as far as CNN was concerned. What we witnessed was a leftist news organization trying to hammer the final nails into the GOP coffin.

Posted by: Soona at September 17, 2015 04:02 PM (Fmupd)

438 >>Sorry, Capt Kirk. You must be stuck in the transport between worlds because I can't clearly hear what point you're trying to make.

There are some who believe that Trump is a stalking horse for Hillary, take the nomination and hand her the presidency.

I think that's kind of silly. Trump's YUGE ego would never allow that.

Posted by: JackStraw at September 17, 2015 04:02 PM (OGm46)

439 And you call names. WTF? Is this 3rd grade?

Posted by: trumpetdaddy at September 17, 2015 03:56 PM (ljZD2)

New around here? Look, there's this short girl. Don't buy any elevator tickets from her.

Posted by: Mikey NTH - Autumnal Enormities have Arrived at the Outrage Outlet! at September 17, 2015 04:02 PM (hLRSq)

440 I love the IDEA of Trump being a big FU to the donor class, but the idea might not be the same as the reality.

Posted by: Max Power at September 17, 2015 04:02 PM (q177U)

441 So Trump was rude. Let's punish him by electing Jeb.

------

That's it. Can't consider one of the other 9 people on stage?

Posted by: SH at September 17, 2015 04:02 PM (gmeXX)

442 You miss the trees for the forest. Jeb still has $114M campaign chest, Trump is self funding and Hillary has $67M campaign chest. Blame Trump all you want, but America faces being ruled by two family dynasties or breaking from this pattern. Trump is the only one that can break shit cyclone of the Clinton/Bush vortex.
Posted by: Puddin Head at September 17, 2015 04:00 PM (oDCMR)

Actually it is the VOTERS who will break that cycle. Now THAT is scary thought!

Posted by: Nevergiveup at September 17, 2015 04:02 PM (gf8BH)

443 Why you no like Heb? I see him give Trump the five down low.

Posted by: wth - sprechen zie Espanol at September 17, 2015 04:02 PM (wAQA5)

444 My question is this.

Why is the federal government funding any cities - let alone sanctuary ones?

Many ways the fedgov funds cities. Schools, roads, law enforcement, fire service, community betterment, etc.

Snip. All gone.

Posted by: rickb223 at September 17, 2015 04:02 PM (Z7b/F)

445 Gee I can't wait to vote for the woman with the angry wife face. yay!

Posted by: Iron Wombat at September 17, 2015 04:02 PM (HEa5q)

446 I guess I'm down to Carly now.

Posted by: D. Trump

erm.... D. Trump = pep

Posted by: pep at September 17, 2015 04:03 PM (LAe3v)

447 Lauren just reminded me why I'm a huge Lauren fan.

Posted by: Mega at September 17, 2015 04:03 PM (hHFOx)

448 See vaccines and autism.
Posted by: SH at September 17, 2015 03:53 PM (gmeXX)

Yeah I was very disappointed to see Trump step into that one. THAT worries me

Posted by: Nevergiveup at September 17, 2015 03:54 PM (gf8BH)

Forget the autism stuff for now, but I find it very strange and distressing that people seem to have been brainwashed into thinking that all vaccines are perfectly safe and have no effects, whatsoever, other than stopping the recipient from getting that disease. That general idea (which has been pushed over and over) is just flat out bullshit. Everything that is beneficial in some way carries costs and risks with it. Everything. There is no free vaccine lunch where people can just be loaded up on any and every sort of vaccine that is developed without expecting some ill effects. If it were true then these magical vaccines would be the only examples in the universe of things that were nothing but good, with no risks and no downsides. Such magical elements just do not exist.

The other worrying part of the "vaccine" debate is that all vaccines seem to be thrown in as being the same. That, too, is just not true. It's not true for the vaccine type. It's not true for the underlying disease that is being vaccinated against.

I'm not directing this at you, personally, but at the general vaccine notion - people used to think this way about antibiotics, too; that they were free of any harm, could be tossed around like toys and fed like candy and nothing bad would ever happen ... because antibiotics were nothing but good and good for you. Now, of course, after a little experience with antibiotics we realize that they have to be used carefully, correctly and as sparingly as possible.

Posted by: ThePrimordialOrderedPair at September 17, 2015 04:03 PM (zc3Db)

449 "Silicon Valley is giddy at the prospect of the "new American century." In fact, in a celebration of the emerging change brought to bear by four decades of record-high green card issuance, Google has launched a program called Code 2040 -whose name "refers to the year the population of minorities in the U.S. is expected to overtake whites."

Can you imagine anybody else celebrating that a racial group is shrinking?

We're so fucked. This is going mainstream.

Posted by: Bevel Lemelisk at September 17, 2015 04:03 PM (dmQI5)

450 Trump never claimed his gender was why he should be the nominee either.

Fiorina hasn't either. Let it go.

Posted by: Ian S. at September 17, 2015 04:03 PM (S+N7W)

451 *blush*

Posted by: Lauren at September 17, 2015 04:03 PM (GZ6Pf)

452 Didn't HP just announce a 30,000 employee layoff as part of their restructuring? Boy did that news come out at a most curious time?

Posted by: Tinfoilbaby at September 17, 2015 04:04 PM (Ii765)

453 Posted by: JackStraw at September 17, 2015 03:55 PM (OGm46)

Facts don't matter to some people. They have their meme and they're sticking to it.

Posted by: Max Rockatansky at September 17, 2015 04:04 PM (Q3fP7)

454 ...
You could tell by Trump's reaction he was genuinely shocked and offended by the accusation. Trump, a man with no scruples, is difficult to offend. Only a real insult would make Trump react like that.
Posted by: Soothsayer rose above the noise and confusion just to get a glimpse beyond the illusion at September 17, 2015 04:01 PM (oz/VB)

Sums up my major malfunction with the man.

Posted by: jwb7605 at September 17, 2015 04:04 PM (M+9nV)

455 Here's my read:

Trump literally knew that major guns were coming from him. It was a hostile crowd. That's why he came out swinging and I think even a bit petty and harsh, but in that very beginning exchange with Rand and others he set the tone.

He said look motherfuckers, if I'm going to fuck with Rand's goofy perm on this debate stage what the fuck do you think I'm going to do to you if you come after me. I think that worked even though I thought it was harsh. Trump survived and looked pretty good. I stand by my B+.

If anyone is talking to Carly tell her to drop this face shit immediately. It will be her doom if she keeps pushing this shit.

Posted by: prescient11 at September 17, 2015 04:04 PM (W7w/T)

456 So Trump was rude. Let's punish him by electing Jeb.

------

That's it. Can't consider one of the other 9 people on stage?

Posted by: SH at September 17, 2015 04:02 PM (gmeXX)

No. Next question.

Posted by: BurtTC at September 17, 2015 04:04 PM (TOk1P)

457 I don't think there's going to be any clarity until at least half of these dipshits drop out and the factions sort of start consolidating around their one preferred candidate.

Posted by: Naes at September 17, 2015 04:05 PM (Ypc8j)

458 I'm not directing this at you, personally, but at the general vaccine notion - people used to think this way about antibiotics, too; that they were free of any harm, could be tossed around like toys and fed like candy and nothing bad would ever happen ... because antibiotics were nothing but good and good for you. Now, of course, after a little experience with antibiotics we realize that they have to be used carefully, correctly and as sparingly as possible.

-----

I do think Carson was sort of getting at that last night.

Posted by: SH at September 17, 2015 04:05 PM (gmeXX)

459 Time to leave for awhile.

I won't vote for Trump. But I wouldn't vote for most of them up there. If you think The Donald was entertaining last night wait til Rachel Madcow and the MSNBC clowns go after him. Hardee har har.

Posted by: Misanthropic Humanitarian at September 17, 2015 04:05 PM (J3phO)

460 >>Because if it were true, Trump would've admitted it. As you say, why lie??

Because all Trump has going for him is that he wins at everything he wants. Bush claimed Trump wanted him to support gambling in FL and Bush refused, Trump lost in other words.

If the Trump aura pops he's got nothing. Which is why he tried to weasel around the bankruptcy thing. It's true Trump hasn't gone bankrupt, he just bankrupts the companies and keeps his assets.

Truish.

Posted by: JackStraw at September 17, 2015 04:05 PM (OGm46)

461 Trump never claimed his gender was why he should be the nominee either.
Posted by: Bevel Lemelisk

But he claimed his business acumen was why he would make a great President. Going bankrupt 4 times means you're a colossal failure.

Trump is wealthy almost exclusively from being a celebrity, and at least Carly Fiorina wasn't given the CEO job from her parents.

Trump was born with a silver spoon in his mouth and a real estate empire as an inheritance.

Posted by: Coolio at September 17, 2015 04:05 PM (T7owr)

462 I say we do a Talkeetna and elect a cat. It has worked out rather nicely for them, and cats only live just so long, so you aren't stuck with some kind of dynasty crap.

Just sayin'.

Posted by: St. Margaret Atheling Queen of Scotland, aka tcn in AK at September 17, 2015 04:06 PM (+YMhA)

463 "Trump fading!!!"

Right. If wishes were horses, beggars would ride.

Trump is not fading in the least. He got higher numbers on the latest Drudge, Time, Newsmax online polls than he did after the first debate with corresponded with a bump up in the polls that followed the next week.

Posted by: Misfortune & Pestilence at September 17, 2015 04:06 PM (jSTDs)

464 Trying to reconcile what I saw last night with this:

http://tinyurl.com/ofvreo2

Posted by: Levin at September 17, 2015 04:06 PM (mgl7C)

465 This is bad for Trump, for more than the obvious reasons.
----------------

That's when the fight started.

Posted by: Mike Hammer, etc., etc. at September 17, 2015 04:06 PM (9mTYi)

466 Actually it is the VOTERS who will break that cycle. Now THAT is scary thought!

Posted by: Nevergiveup at September 17, 2015 04:02 PM (gf8BH)

Just like voters decide who wins American Idol.

Posted by: BurtTC at September 17, 2015 04:06 PM (TOk1P)

467 450 Trump never claimed his gender was why he should be the nominee either.
Fiorina hasn't either. Let it go.
Posted by: Ian S. at September 17, 2015 04:03 PM (S+N7W)

She sort of has.
"53% of the electorate is not a special interest group".

Back door but very effective approach.

Posted by: jwb7605 at September 17, 2015 04:06 PM (M+9nV)

468 I'm still with Cruz. Tapper made it clear that he didn't want Cruz to get any questions.

I think Cruz will really shine when we get down to 4 or fewer primary candidates.

Posted by: knob at September 17, 2015 04:07 PM (mQUCm)

469 450 Trump never claimed his gender was why he should be the nominee either.

Fiorina hasn't either. Let it go.
Posted by: Ian S. at September 17, 2015 04:03 PM (S+N7W)

Acknowledge reality. She did it.

http://tinyurl.com/ylo29lu

Posted by: Bevel Lemelisk at September 17, 2015 04:07 PM (dmQI5)

470 Why is the federal government funding any cities - let alone sanctuary ones?
Posted by: SH at September 17, 2015 03:54 PM (gmeXX)
__________________________

I agree that the federal government shouldn't be funding the crap that goes on in cities in the first place, but the sad fact is that the federal government, which is supposed to be a government of limited powers, has grown and morphed over the centuries into an all-powerful, all-invasive behemoth that has its sticky fingers stuck in every pot in the nation.

If Trump really wanted to gain some traction with voters, he should talk about doing something about that. "If you elect me president, I will work with congress to repeal the enabling acts that created the departments of education, labor, housing and urban development, and every other federal agency that has no legitimate existence under our constitution. We will rein in the out-of-control federal government, and return to the states those powers which rightfully belong to them and which have been stolen from them by an irresponsible and power-mad federal government."

Posted by: TrivialPursuer at September 17, 2015 04:07 PM (a31sM)

471 Let's face it. Carly would not be in the race except she is a woman. Carson if not an articulate black neurosurgeon who told Obama off. They are not serious contenders and would be eaten alive by the machine in DC. Nothing against either one, but they are wedge candidates.

Cruz and Walker are good, but they are also fairly young and more years can't hurt but help them. Rubio is like any other GOPe sellout, just the younger version. He's dead to me on one issue... immigration that smells of can't we all just get along, UN.

I don't understand the desire really for a candidate that has a freaking plan for everything right now. We need a big-ideal leader. Love America first of all, and get back to the rule of law, weed out corruption and pare back Washington DC... oh, and build a wall and kick the illegals out. Post freaking haste

Posted by: Yip at September 17, 2015 04:07 PM (e7T6D)

472 At least Carly didn't bankrupt HP 4 times like Trump did.
Posted by: Coolio at September 17, 2015 03:59 PM (T7owr)

Will you stop with this lame talking point?

Trump has hundreds of businesses set up under different LLCs and structured in different ways. Of those, 4 went through bankruptcy court to restructure. That's business.

Romney steered a ton of companies through restructuring too, I'm sure. Pretty much every major company in America has seen the inside of a bankruptcy court.

Millions of Americans have, too, for what it's worth.

Sometimes the right move in life and business is to cut your losses and go to court and let the court sort it all out.

Posted by: mynewhandle at September 17, 2015 04:07 PM (AkOaV)

473 466 Actually it is the VOTERS who will break that cycle. Now THAT is scary thought!

Posted by: Nevergiveup at September 17, 2015 04:02 PM (gf8BH)

Right up to the part where voters are disenfranchised by illegals, dead people and other malfeasance. Right up to that point.

I can't believe anybody believes that one vote counts for anything any more.

Posted by: St. Margaret Atheling Queen of Scotland, aka tcn in AK at September 17, 2015 04:08 PM (+YMhA)

474 Still too early, still doesn't matter, Trump still won't be the nominee.

Posted by: TallDave at September 17, 2015 04:08 PM (/s1LA)

475 Bush claimed Trump wanted him to support gambling in FL and Bush refused, Trump lost in other words.

Posted by: JackStraw at September 17, 2015 04:05 PM (OGm46)

So what happens when Trump costs Jeb! the White House? Do we reassess who won and who lost?

Posted by: BurtTC at September 17, 2015 04:08 PM (TOk1P)

476 Time for some whimsy

http://www.ufunk.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/101-dalmatians-engagement-8.jpg

Posted by: Anna Puma at September 17, 2015 04:08 PM (tGvsw)

477 Wow, there are still unknown treasures out there.

Someone just submitted the following picture to the Mohammed Image Archive -- from a French satirical newspaper (similar to Charlie Hebdo) but from - - wait for it -- 1904! Over a century ago!

http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k1048036c/f9.image.r=assiette%20au%20beurre.langFR

Fabulous.

Posted by: zombie at September 17, 2015 04:08 PM (jBuUi)

478
Hi everyone.

I would just like to say a few things.

Yeah.

Posted by: Ben Carson in a voice you can barely hear at September 17, 2015 04:09 PM (oz/VB)

479 Trump is not fading in the least. He got higher numbers on the latest Drudge, Time, Newsmax online polls
----------------------------

Sorry, but such just are not meaningful in the big scheme of things.

Posted by: Mike Hammer, etc., etc. at September 17, 2015 04:09 PM (9mTYi)

480 I knew Mother T. was rather short, as are some of the other commenters here ( looks sideways at AtC) but I didn't know she was a Commie.
Posted by: kraken at September 17, 2015 03:47 PM (sdxPm)

Me neither. Dedicating yourself to helping the poor of Calcutta makes a person a Commie?

Posted by: Donna and V. (sans ampersands) at September 17, 2015 04:09 PM (u0lmX)

481 But he claimed his business acumen was why he would make a great President. Going bankrupt 4 times means you're a colossal failure.

Trump tries to spin this as "I'm so smart, I use the laws of the land for my benefit. Of course I use the bankruptcy laws".

One of my private equity friends is in high moral pique against this. "He stiffed his investors! He took their money!"

Legal =/= good.

Posted by: Bandersnatch, Opus/Bill the Cat 2016 at September 17, 2015 04:09 PM (JtwS4)

482 Oooh, not only is it fabulous, but it has the power to blow out the margins! Allah is indeed all-powerful!

Posted by: zombie at September 17, 2015 04:09 PM (jBuUi)

483 I believe that's a Kraken.... Looks like he's got a 9 iron.... I think he is going to need more club...

Posted by: Tinfoilbaby at September 17, 2015 04:09 PM (Ii765)

484 >>> I want it cut out too, but Congress needs to do that, not POTUS.

Its *always* someone else, isn't it? Never anybody leading, oh no.

IOW, BS. It could stop tomorrow.

Posted by: Bigby's Fistful of Travelers Cheques at September 17, 2015 04:09 PM (3ZtZW)

485 I have to say, if you voted for Romney but wouldn't vote for Trump, I think that's beyond hypocritical.

Posted by: prescient11 at September 17, 2015 04:09 PM (W7w/T)

486 Posted by: Ben Carson in a voice you can barely hear at September 17, 2015 04:09 PM (oz/VB)

Jesus, climbing in the barrel on purpose?

Posted by: Bevel Lemelisk at September 17, 2015 04:09 PM (dmQI5)

487 That's it. Can't consider one of the other 9 people on stage?

Posted by: SH at September 17, 2015 04:02 PM (gmeXX)

If you aren't for Trump it is clear you are a supporter of His Misbegotten majesty Jeb Bush III. GOPe High Chancellor Prince Reibus will find a position suitable for a flunky of your caliber, perhaps as first lord of the Chamberpot.

Posted by: Mikey NTH - Autumnal Enormities have Arrived at the Outrage Outlet! at September 17, 2015 04:10 PM (hLRSq)

488 Posted by: ThePrimordialOrderedPair at September 17, 2015 04:03 PM (

Who said vaccines cannot have adverse effects in rare cases? What people have said is that their is no scientific evidence that vaccines can cause autism.

Posted by: Max Rockatansky at September 17, 2015 04:10 PM (Q3fP7)

489 >>So what happens when Trump costs Jeb! the White House? Do we reassess who won and who lost?

If Jeb doesn't get the nomination then we are all winners. But I attribute most of Jeb's problems to Jeb.

Whoever told him it would be a good idea to start his campaign by hammering the base and supporting ideas they hated probably should think about a new line of work.

Posted by: JackStraw at September 17, 2015 04:10 PM (OGm46)

490
275 I still think Rubio turned some heads last night. He obviously has a very good grasp of the facts and presents very well. He stayed far away from the mud fights and hammered away at Obama.

he gives the same stagey excerpts from his stump speech.

Posted by: ace at September 17, 2015 03:37 PM (dciA+)

Yeah, that and the immigration thing.
Posted by: Jollyroger at September 17, 2015 03:39 PM (t06LC)

But he claims to have learned his lesson on that. So he totes won't do that again. Jus like his partner on amnesty John McCain said he had learned his lesson in 2008.

Yep totally believable there Rubio.

Posted by: Buzzion at September 17, 2015 04:10 PM (z/Ubi)

491 Bandersnatch:

Actually Levin talked about this last night. Says Trump called him to explain what happened in Jersey. It's way too complicated to explain on debate stage.

Posted by: prescient11 at September 17, 2015 04:10 PM (W7w/T)

492
Didn't HP just announce a 30,000 employee layoff as part of their restructuring? Boy did that news come out at a most curious time?
Posted by: Tinfoilbaby

You mean at the end of the quarter, when large layoffs are usually announced, so they can be reflected in the quarterly statements and explained away at next month's analyst conference call?

Yes, quite suspicious.... Watson, the game is a foot! Maybe two.

Posted by: Laurie David's Cervix at September 17, 2015 04:10 PM (kdS6q)

493 Acknowledge reality. She did it.

http://tinyurl.com/ylo29lu
Posted by: Bevel Lemelisk at September 17, 2015

2009?

Ouch.

seriously, dude

Posted by: Bandersnatch, Opus/Bill the Cat 2016 at September 17, 2015 04:11 PM (JtwS4)

494 Nah, kraken used a 5 iron.

Posted by: kraken at September 17, 2015 04:11 PM (sdxPm)

495 Me neither. Dedicating yourself to helping the poor of Calcutta makes a person a Commie?
Posted by: Donna and V. (sans ampersands) at September 17, 2015 04:09 PM (u0lmX)

Pretty sure she was nothing of the kind. She DID offer the nuclear option of an emergency prayer novena to Our Lady, but other than that I'd say she was no threat to anyone or any system.

Just sayin'.

Posted by: St. Margaret Atheling Queen of Scotland, aka tcn in AK at September 17, 2015 04:11 PM (+YMhA)

496 Rubio is done. He gave the same debate performance he did last time. He's good on stage, his water joke fell flat, and no one fucking cares.

Everyone said he did good at first debate and his poll numbers have collapsed.

Posted by: prescient11 at September 17, 2015 04:11 PM (W7w/T)

497 Let's face it. Carly would not be in the race except she is a woman. Carson if not an articulate black neurosurgeon who told Obama off.

-----

Neither would Trump if he weren't a reality star. What's the point?

Posted by: SH at September 17, 2015 04:11 PM (gmeXX)

498
I say we do a Talkeetna and elect a cat.
..................

Meow.

Posted by: Stubbs at September 17, 2015 04:11 PM (wAQA5)

499
In business, Trump bats, what .900?

Not a bad record, overall.

Posted by: Soothsayer, now with a low profile tip and ergonomical handle at September 17, 2015 04:12 PM (oz/VB)

500 Yep. Let's get a real business expert in there like Obama.

Posted by: Roy

Precisely. Hell, even !Jeb! would almost certainly be an improvement (doesn't mean I'd vote for him, tho).

Posted by: Moderate Salami, weeping for our dead Republic at September 17, 2015 04:12 PM (/Ho8c)

501 Trump tries to spin this as "I'm so smart, I use the laws of the land for my benefit. Of course I use the bankruptcy laws".

One of my private equity friends is in high moral pique against this. "He stiffed his investors! He took their money!"

Legal =/= good.
Posted by: Bandersnatch, Opus/Bill the Cat 2016 at September 17, 2015 04:09 PM (JtwS4)

Yes, he stiffed his investors. In the same way American Airlines stiffs its investors every time it goes in to bankruptcy court.

It's built in to the price / interest rate. The investors know the risks. We're not talking about granny putting some of her social security money in the stock market, these are venture capitalists who know a certain % of their investments will go sideways.

Either way -- whatever.

Posted by: mynewhandle at September 17, 2015 04:12 PM (AkOaV)

502 Jeb BUSH is proof that the screams of "electability" from the establishment was a load of horse manure.

Posted by: Buzzion at September 17, 2015 04:12 PM (z/Ubi)

503 If Carlita or Jeb or Kasich is on the ticket, I'm not voting GOP. That simple.

Posted by: Monsieur Mew Mew at September 17, 2015 04:12 PM (0LHZx)

504 Posted by: prescient11 at September 17, 2015 04:09 PM (W7w/T)

Romney and Trump are the opposite of each other. In every way including the way they do business.

Posted by: Max Rockatansky at September 17, 2015 04:12 PM (Q3fP7)

505 493 Acknowledge reality. She did it.

http://tinyurl.com/ylo29lu
Posted by: Bevel Lemelisk at September 17, 2015

2009?

Ouch.

seriously, dude
Posted by: Bandersnatch, Opus/Bill the Cat 2016 at September 17, 2015 04:11 PM (JtwS4)

This is the counter-argument? She only did it the last time she ran for office?

Posted by: Bevel Lemelisk at September 17, 2015 04:12 PM (dmQI5)

506 Acknowledge reality. She did it.

http://tinyurl.com/ylo29lu

No, she said that in 2010 it would indemnify her against stupid War on Women attacks. I can't speak to the specific effectiveness of that, but 10 points is a lot closer than the GOP got in other recent statewide California races.

Also, this is not 2010. Let it go.

Posted by: Ian S. at September 17, 2015 04:12 PM (S+N7W)

507 >>Yep totally believable there Rubio.

Trump was completely in for amnesty a couple years ago, back when he was a self-proclaimed liberal democrat. Why give him the benefit of the doubt?

Posted by: JackStraw at September 17, 2015 04:12 PM (OGm46)

508 I have a tendency to suspect that the GOPe, the MSM, and the Dem party playedv( extensively) with the polls to cause a preference cascade downward.
At any rate, I don't think Trump would be as successful as he is if he were the type to give up, the fact that he had a few bankruptcies says he keeps trying. Don't despair.

Posted by: Chillin the most at September 17, 2015 04:12 PM (BI43k)

509 FelonSpoke @ 407: "Why would a Trump supporter be in the pay of George Soros?"

Name another Republican candidate capable of losing to Joe Biden or Bernie Sanders. Hell, even Pataki would mop the floor with them.

In Trump, you have the one guy that's capable of making Biden seem like a sober, thoughtful statesman. And there would be so many misogynistic Trump quotes the media could gleefully trot out, five minutes after his nomination, that his own wife wouldn't vote for him when they're done.

Trump is the far-left's dream candidate for the Republicans. Particularly this cycle, when we had such a strong, deep field.

Posted by: Pastafarian at September 17, 2015 04:13 PM (LqrRo)

510 "472 At least Carly didn't bankrupt HP 4 times like Trump did.
Posted by: Coolio at September 17, 2015 03:59 PM (T7owr)

Will you stop with this lame talking point?

Trump has hundreds of businesses set up under different LLCs and structured in different ways. Of those, 4 went through bankruptcy court to restructure. That's business.

Romney steered a ton of companies through restructuring too, I'm sure. Pretty much every major company in America has seen the inside of a bankruptcy court.

Millions of Americans have, too, for what it's worth.

Sometimes the right move in life and business is to cut your losses and go to court and let the court sort it all out.
Posted by: mynewhandle at September 17, 2015 04:07 PM (AkOaV)"

It's more complicated to look at things like that, so people go with the 4 bankruptcy line. I think it's the same with the Atlantic City stuff, when I speak with more casual political watchers, they keep throwing the "well atlantic city isn't doing well" line at me. I'm fairly certain Trump has no stake in those casino's anymore, and was suing to have his name removed. If I'm wrong someone please correct me.

Also regarding the silver spoon comment comment I saw posted by someone else, Fred Trump left Donald a fortune for sure, but Trump has very successfully magnified this fortune many times over. I see a lot of misinformation on the guy's father, that either he was a slum lord or he left Donald billions... neither are true.

Posted by: Dr. Shatterhand at September 17, 2015 04:13 PM (n/ogz)

511 If Jeb doesn't get the nomination then we are all winners. But I attribute most of Jeb's problems to Jeb.

Whoever told him it would be a good idea to start his campaign by
hammering the base and supporting ideas they hated probably should think
about a new line of work.

Posted by: JackStraw at September 17, 2015 04:10 PM (OGm46)

I'm expecting Jeb! to be the Republican nominee, and I'm expecting Trump to run as a third Party candidate. If this is personal, and I'm sorta taking your word on the gambling in Fla thing, then yeah, I expect Trump will stay in it until he beats Jeb!

Posted by: BurtTC at September 17, 2015 04:13 PM (TOk1P)

512 And I really hate that my phone has learned that Jeb is a word complete with capitalization.

Posted by: Buzzion at September 17, 2015 04:13 PM (z/Ubi)

513 A cat would have more empathy and compassion than Jugears, so yeah, let's go with the cat.

Posted by: kraken at September 17, 2015 04:14 PM (sdxPm)

514 One of my private equity friends is in high moral pique against this. "He stiffed his investors! He took their money!"

He robbed them? Or they went all in voluntarily hoping to make more money?

Posted by: rickb223 at September 17, 2015 04:14 PM (Z7b/F)

515 In business, Trump bats, what .900?

Yes, I shall fly Trump Air to the Trump Palace in AC.

Posted by: Bandersnatch, Opus/Bill the Cat 2016 at September 17, 2015 04:14 PM (JtwS4)

516 She sort of has.
"53% of the electorate is not a special interest group".

Back door but very effective approach.
Posted by: jwb7605 at September 17, 2015 04:06 PM (M+9nV)

Funny, because the way I took that is that women should not be lumping themselves in with minorities (as the Dems always do), because they are not a minority.

Of course, I could have heard it differently than you did because that "women and minorities" thing has always pissed me off.

Posted by: Donna and V. (sans ampersands) at September 17, 2015 04:14 PM (u0lmX)

517 497 Let's face it. Carly would not be in the race except she is a woman. Carson if not an articulate black neurosurgeon who told Obama off.
-----
Neither would Trump if he weren't a reality star. What's the point?
Posted by: SH at September 17, 2015 04:11 PM (gmeXX)

All 3 are lucky I didn't enter the race. I'm so f**king unknown I'd vault past them all!

Posted by: jwb7605 at September 17, 2015 04:14 PM (M+9nV)

518 There are some who believe that Trump is a stalking horse for Hillary, take the nomination and hand her the presidency.

Ah weel. If that's what Captain Kirk was talking aboot, it was naw clear, laddie

Posted by: Mr. Scott at September 17, 2015 04:14 PM (dKQ1C)

519 As I've said repeatedly, Trump's hardest task is winning the GOP nomination.

If he does, he wins the general walking away. LANDSLIDE.

Posted by: prescient11 at September 17, 2015 04:15 PM (W7w/T)

520
Yep. Which is probably why they're stirring the pot. Trump is the only one in the Republican field who could lose to Biden.
Wow. Pastafarian I have bad news for you. I agree Biden is a complete idjit. However, the demos love Joe Biden and will crawl over hot coals to vote for him. Sorry but I have too many demsin the family and Joe Biden could literally poop his pants on TV and they'd let it go.

Posted by: simplemind at September 17, 2015 04:15 PM (XkdIH)

521 FelonSpoke @ 407: "Why would a Trump supporter be in the pay of George Soros?"

Posted by: Pastafarian at September 17, 2015 04:13 PM (LqrRo)

You know, I totally think you should change your nic to "felon spoke".

Posted by: mynewhandle at September 17, 2015 04:15 PM (AkOaV)

522 514 One of my private equity friends is in high moral pique against this. "He stiffed his investors! He took their money!"

He robbed them? Or they went all in voluntarily hoping to make more money?
Posted by: rickb223 at September 17, 2015 04:14 PM (Z7b/F)

Losing your investment is a known risk in any startup.

Posted by: Insomniac at September 17, 2015 04:16 PM (2Ojst)

523 The thing with HP/Compaq acquisition is difficult, but I think she can spin it as a positive. Here's how:

-Admit that the merger didn't work well.
-Draw parallels between HP's organization at the time she came on with the federal government today.
-Say that it was a learning experience. You don't fix what's broken by doing more of what broke it. You don't fix washington by electing more of the people that got it that way.
-Claim the mantle of that outsider.

I'm sure someone can put more articulate words on that, but I think that formula itself would be solid.

Posted by: joe at September 17, 2015 04:16 PM (KUaJL)

524 Posted by: Ben Carson in a voice you can barely hear at September 17, 2015 04:09 PM (oz/VB)

Jesus, climbing in the barrel on purpose?

Posted by: Bevel Lemelisk at September 17, 2015 04:09 PM (dmQI5)

Kinda like shooting fish in a barrel... except Doctor Ben doesn't think he could shoot the fish.

Posted by: BurtTC at September 17, 2015 04:16 PM (TOk1P)

525 Will you stop with this lame talking point?

Trump has hundreds of businesses set up under different LLCs and structured in different ways. Of those, 4 went through bankruptcy court to restructure. That's business.

Romney steered a ton of companies through restructuring too, I'm sure. Pretty much every major company in America has seen the inside of a bankruptcy court.

Millions of Americans have, too, for what it's worth.

Sometimes the right move in life and business is to cut your losses and go to court and let the court sort it all out.
Posted by: mynewhandle

_____________________

They did a study on Trump's rate of return, and he would have made more money simply letting his assets sit in an index fund than what he made in real estate.

Trump is a celebrity playing the role of a successful businessman.

Posted by: Coolio at September 17, 2015 04:16 PM (T7owr)

526 >>So what happens when Trump costs Jeb! the White House? Do we reassess who won and who lost?

??????
Jeb can't win. He has no fire in the belly to fight whomever the Dems select is their candidate. Biden and Sanders have twice as much energy as Jeb, and Jeb would never, ever be tough on old family friend Hillary. And the MSM will pin every "failure" of his brother's presidency on him. It would be a slam-dunk.

He's the guy the GOPe has selected to lose honorably.

Posted by: Lizzy at September 17, 2015 04:16 PM (NOIQH)

527
In business, Trump bats, what .900?

Yes, I shall fly Trump Air to the Trump Palace in AC.
Posted by: Bandersnatch

Pretty sure any airline you'd choose to fly has been thru one or more structured bankruptcies.

Posted by: Laurie David's Cervix at September 17, 2015 04:16 PM (kdS6q)

528 Carly would not be in the race except she is a woman. Carson if not an articulate black neurosurgeon who told Obama off.

By those criteria, I should've seen half a dozen Moronettes and "Official Obama Criticizer" Bo Snerdley in the debate lineup last night.

Posted by: Ian S. at September 17, 2015 04:16 PM (S+N7W)

529 If he does, he wins the general walking away. LANDSLIDE.

------

Would be interesting. Of course, I have said repeatedly that I think the GOP* will win this election in a landslide (by today's standards - not of the Nixon/Reagan standard).

* unless it is Jeb

Posted by: SH at September 17, 2015 04:16 PM (gmeXX)

530 Max,

Oh that's so hilarious. I swear to Christ the naivety is beyond me.

Trump gave to democrats!! NO SHIT, he was in NYC.

Trump filed bankruptcy!! A few things didn't work out.

Yeah, Trump and Romney did things differently. Trump built an empire, Romney shuffled fucking paper.

Posted by: prescient11 at September 17, 2015 04:17 PM (W7w/T)

531
What does Carly Purina look like in Lulu Lemons?

That's what the voters like me want to know.

Posted by: Soothsayer, now with a low profile tip and ergonomical handle at September 17, 2015 04:17 PM (oz/VB)

532 Funny, because the way I took that is that women should not be lumping themselves in with minorities (as the Dems always do), because they are not a minority.
Of course, I could have heard it differently than you did because that "women and minorities" thing has always pissed me off.
Posted by: Donna and V. (sans ampersands) at September 17, 2015 04:14 PM (u0lmX)

That was the beauty of it.
She took the phrase and probably put the fear of god into Trump, while not condemning the sentiment. I viewed it as an excellent way to attract a few wavering Hillary! supporters.

Posted by: jwb7605 at September 17, 2015 04:17 PM (M+9nV)

533 Dedicating yourself to helping the poor of Calcutta makes a person a Commie?"

Yes, if your actions perpetuate a cycle of poverty and dependency as opposed to ending the cycle. Of course, commies and missionaries do it for different reasons. However, it's often the same result.

Posted by: Naes at September 17, 2015 04:17 PM (Ypc8j)

534 "...., rather than in recognition of what Mr. Obama had already accomplished."

Obama had accomplished NOTHING! He was a shitty state senator, a shitty senator, and had just been elected. These Nobel assholes are assholes.

Posted by: Bruce With a Wang! at September 17, 2015 04:17 PM (iQIUe)

535 FelonSpoke @ 407: "Why would a Trump supporter be in the pay of George Soros?"

Posted by: Pastafarian at September 17, 2015 04:13 PM (LqrRo)

You know, I totally think you should change your nic to "felon spoke".

Posted by: mynewhandle at September 17, 2015 04:15 PM (AkOaV)

The troll, pastafarian, thinks he's being cute. He's not. He's just a troll.

Posted by: BurtTC at September 17, 2015 04:17 PM (TOk1P)

536 506 Acknowledge reality. She did it.

http://tinyurl.com/ylo29lu

No, she said that in 2010 it would indemnify her against stupid War on Women attacks. I can't speak to the specific effectiveness of that, but 10 points is a lot closer than the GOP got in other recent statewide California races.

Also, this is not 2010. Let it go.
Posted by: Ian S. at September 17, 2015 04:12 PM (S+N7W)

Oh please. If a man said in 2010 he should be the nominee because he's not a woman, he'd never be able to run for dog catcher for the GOP.

Posted by: Bevel Lemelisk at September 17, 2015 04:18 PM (dmQI5)

537 Felon Spoke..... that is so cool.

Posted by: kraken at September 17, 2015 04:18 PM (sdxPm)

538 My sis got an email from mister Feel the Bern! today about the debate. He was most upset that the debate did not address the #1 issue facing Americans today, which is...

Hiking the minimum wage. Of course it is, bless his heart. And of course he ends his email with "In solidarity." Socialist through and through.

::

Last night, it took nearly two hours for the Republican debate to even briefly touch on an important issue: raising the minimum wage in this country from $7.25 an hour. The American people overwhelmingly want to raise the minimum wage, but not a single candidate embraced the idea with the same enthusiasm.

The truth is, once again, if you are one of the wealthiest people in this country, you had eleven candidates on the stage talking about your needs for almost three and a half hours. The rich are getting richer and everyone else is getting poorer, yet for what seemed like an eternity, all they could talk about was not letting women control their own bodies and defunding Planned Parenthood. If you are a veteran or military family member, there was a lot of talk about more money for war and confrontation, but no conversation about how the cost of war continues long after the last service member has returned home from overseas.

I think that's one of the reasons our campaign is doing so well. We are willing to talk about the issues that matter in the lives of all Americans, and not just a handful of special interests and wealthy campaign contributors.

And all throughout last night's debate, I kept thinking about some of the people I've met and stories I've received since our campaign began. Like the young mother from California who wrote me a few weeks ago saying:

"I'm 25 years old and about to have my first daughter. I want her to be able to go to college without going into insane amounts of debt. I want her to be able to get the healthcare she needs to stay happy and healthy."

Or the printing company worker in upstate New York who wrote to me saying:

"I am paid $10.00 an hour for the past 2 years in a customer service role. I have 2 sons and cannot afford the daycare bill for them by myself. I've been forced to move home with my parents as my $650 paychecks after tax are not enough to live on with paying $500 for daycare just to go to work."

Today, we live in the richest country in the history of the world, but that reality means little when people who work 40 hours a week are living in poverty, and hundreds of thousands of young people are forced to give up their dream of going to college because it is too expensive.

The good news is, this is a nation we can rebuild together. And I am asking you to join me in this campaign to build a future for all of us, and not just a few on the top.

Make a $3 contribution to our campaign if you're ready for a political revolution that creates a country in which children aren't living in poverty, kids can go to college, and seniors have health care.

The truth is, I had to give up on the debate after two and a half hours. This country and our planet face enormous problems, and the Republican candidates on that stage last night barely touched upon them.
There was no discussion about racial justice, income inequality, or making college more affordable. Nothing about child poverty, parental leave, or ensuring that every American can retire with dignity. And with virtually every campaign backed by an enormous Super PAC (except Trump who is his own Super PAC), you can be sure there was no discussion of the grotesque amount of spending corrupting our political process.

And when the candidates did touch on actual issues, they were dead wrong on virtually every position they took.

In less than a month, we'll have our chance at the first Democratic presidential debate. But I'll need your support to keep growing our political revolution between now and then.

That's why your contribution is so important.

In solidarity,
Bernie Sanders

Posted by: LizLem at September 17, 2015 04:18 PM (hvf9s)

539 SH:

I'd tend to agree with this, the pendulum is switching to the GOP side.

Posted by: prescient11 at September 17, 2015 04:18 PM (W7w/T)

540 513 A cat would have more empathy and compassion than Jugears, so yeah, let's go with the cat.
Posted by: kraken at September 17, 2015 04:14 PM (sdxPm)

Stubbs was found in a box with other kittens--I'm thinking we should probably keep our eyes open for such fortuitous events.

Posted by: St. Margaret Atheling Queen of Scotland, aka tcn in AK at September 17, 2015 04:18 PM (+YMhA)

541 526 this x a bazillion.

Posted by: Weasel at September 17, 2015 04:18 PM (e3bId)

542 Also regarding the silver spoon comment comment I saw posted by someone else, Fred Trump left Donald a fortune for sure, but Trump has very successfully magnified this fortune many times over. I see a lot of misinformation on the guy's father, that either he was a slum lord or he left Donald billions... neither are true.
Posted by: Dr. Shatterhand at September 17, 2015 04:13 PM (n/ogz)

His old man owned property in Queens. Trump took a decent sized company and made it YUGE by gambling on going in to Manhattan, which is a very difficult market to break in to.

I mean, whatever, it's not a "rags to riches" story, but The Donald has been successful.

Posted by: mynewhandle at September 17, 2015 04:18 PM (AkOaV)

543
Pretty sure any airline you'd choose to fly has been thru one or more structured bankruptcies.

ba-ziiiiiiiiinGGGG!!!

Posted by: Soothsayer, now with a low profile tip and ergonomical handle at September 17, 2015 04:18 PM (oz/VB)

544 Neither would Trump if he weren't a reality star. What's the point?

Posted by: SH Trump is not of this world. He is the embodiment of the SMOD of legends past. He is worthy of jokes on par with the most interesting man in the world or Chuck Norris.

The more ridiculous, the better. He cannot be measured by the white-boards of Rove or the K-street banquets. He has appeal because he's not one of us, nor one of them. HE's got that NYC swagger that most of the country can't stand, but has been forced to put up with our entire lives.... in a good way.

The rules no longer apply. Trump has the name recognition and an entire generation of voters only know of him from a TV show being competent and firing celebrities or ambitious newbile entrepreneurs. I think he'll go far. I hope he does. I will not vote for Jeb!

Posted by: Yip at September 17, 2015 04:18 PM (e7T6D)

545 Losing your investment is a known risk in any startup.

Exactly.

Posted by: rickb223 at September 17, 2015 04:18 PM (Z7b/F)

546 Elect a cat?

*quietly stuffs Bill the Cat in the box with Schrodinger's*

How about an android cat-girl who likes guns and blowing stuff up with good lighting?

Nyah?

Posted by: Anna Puma at September 17, 2015 04:19 PM (tGvsw)

547 Posted by: mynewhandle at September 17, 2015 04:15 PM (AkOaV)

Well, I'd have to find some sufficiently interesting crime to be convicted of because right now, thank God, my criminal record consists of a few traffic tickets.

Posted by: FenelonSpoke at September 17, 2015 04:19 PM (dKQ1C)

548 Crap Bernie's email was long! Sorry, should have cut it down. But at least you get to see the cray cray.

Posted by: LizLem at September 17, 2015 04:19 PM (hvf9s)

549 >>Pretty sure any airline you'd choose to fly has been thru one or more structured bankruptcies.

That was a bit more than a structured bankruptcy. That was a colossal failure resulting in the company being taken by the creditors.

Posted by: JackStraw at September 17, 2015 04:19 PM (OGm46)

550 simplemind @ 435:

I think the attention they paid to Trump, even if it was negative attention, clearly only helped him. He had nearly twice as much time as anyone else. So no, the media isn't out to get Trump. That will wait for the general, should he be nominated. We haven't seen one tenth the ugly truths about Trump, his history, and his big dumb mouth, that we could have.

I did think it was telling that the moderators systematically avoided Cruz and Walker, though.

Posted by: Pastafarian at September 17, 2015 04:19 PM (LqrRo)

551 Nood. Content-a-palooza.

Posted by: MTF at September 17, 2015 04:20 PM (LISuA)

552
If Carly wants to run on her vulva, fine with me. Let's see the goods.

Posted by: Soothsayer, now with a low profile tip and ergonomical handle at September 17, 2015 04:20 PM (oz/VB)

553 When one of Trumps peers comes out in support of him I'll reconsider my opinion of his business acumen.

Posted by: Max Rockatansky at September 17, 2015 04:20 PM (Q3fP7)

554 JackStraw @ 438: You're assuming that Trump would have to be in on the plan.

Posted by: Pastafarian at September 17, 2015 04:20 PM (LqrRo)

555 Carly is the only one I gave money too ... all of $9, I wanted her on the stage, still a strong VP.

But she is bashing Trump to a large part with a "war on women" not so subtle narrative. After the debate O'Reilly actually knocked her hard "persona", and Brit and Brett also thought she needed a softer face at times. But Carly claims all America knows Trump was bashing her looks, though it was a semi-private comment while his gang watched her on screen.

I want Trump to lose to someone being stronger on border control, and stronger on "America First". Not war on women. Not Jeb big money, or Rubio friend of amnesty.

Carly may be OK, though the "started as a secretary" rap is lame, given her Father's pull. She's basically a blue blood. She does say no citizenship for the current illegals, but needs to be strong on kicking out MS-13 types. Police will ID and question you ... illegals must go, unless they have a real job where they are really needed.

Trump could come back if he taps a Giuliani and gets serious on policy, to where he can talk detail. That MIGHT be coming, or maybe he really is just the clown car. But I think he still has potential, after he finishes riding the initial HUUUuuge wave on borders and China cheats. If he has substance, it will be time to show it.

Posted by: Illiniwek at September 17, 2015 04:20 PM (6zZ5y)

556 Nood. Like Trebek's granny last night! HA!

Posted by: sean connery at September 17, 2015 04:21 PM (+W1gD)

557 They did a study on Trump's rate of return, and he would have made more money simply letting his assets sit in an index fund than what he made in real estate.

What is hindsight? Oh, that's right, 20/20.

Posted by: rickb223 at September 17, 2015 04:21 PM (Z7b/F)

558 ??????

Jeb can't win. He has no fire in the belly to fight whomever the
Dems select is their candidate. Biden and Sanders have twice as much
energy as Jeb, and Jeb would never, ever be tough on old family friend
Hillary. And the MSM will pin every "failure" of his brother's
presidency on him. It would be a slam-dunk.

He's the guy the GOPe has selected to lose honorably.

Posted by: Lizzy at September 17, 2015 04:16 PM (NOIQH)

I sometimes have a hard time figuring out what he's doing there, too. Jeb! looks like a guy who is being made to make public announcements by a group of people who have his family tied up somewhere, threatening to kill them if he doesn't say exactly what they tell him to say.

But there he is. And until I get a clear view of who else Gope is going to push on us, I'm going to assume Jeb! is the one.

Posted by: BurtTC at September 17, 2015 04:21 PM (TOk1P)

559 "Yep. Which is probably why they're stirring the pot. Trump is the only one in the Republican field who could lose to Biden.
Wow. Pastafarian I have bad news for you. I agree Biden is a complete idjit. However, the demos love Joe Biden and will crawl over hot coals to vote for him. Sorry but I have too many demsin the family and Joe Biden could literally poop his pants on TV and they'd let it go.
Posted by: simplemind at September 17, 2015 04:15 PM (XkdIH)"

This won't be popular here, but Ted Cruz loses to Joe Biden. I think we tend to underestimate how much people outside of our conservative circles absolutely hate the guy. He has less than zero cross over appeal.

Posted by: Dr. Shatterhand at September 17, 2015 04:21 PM (n/ogz)

560 Yes, if your actions perpetuate a cycle of poverty and dependency as opposed to ending the cycle. Of course, commies and missionaries do it for different reasons. However, it's often the same result.

Posted by: Naes at September 17, 2015 04:17 PM (Ypc8j)

How, exactly, do you square this with the actual facts? Pretty sure she relieved some of the symptoms of the crushing poverty by giving poor folks a decent place to die, cared for and loved, in dignity. Can't really see how that contributes to dependency. Just eases some of the burdens.

Did you think she should be raising money to give them, or instituting a jobs program for the sick and dying?

Please, expound on this so that we can understand.

Posted by: St. Margaret Atheling Queen of Scotland, aka tcn in AK at September 17, 2015 04:21 PM (+YMhA)

561 Fenelon... no felonies? Drop by some time and we can up your game....

Posted by: kraken at September 17, 2015 04:21 PM (sdxPm)

562 I say we do a Talkeetna and elect a cat. It has worked out rather nicely for them, and cats only live just so long, so you aren't stuck with some kind of dynasty crap.

Just sayin'.

Grumpy Cat 2016.

With runner up being F This In Particular Cat.

Posted by: ConservativeMonster at September 17, 2015 04:21 PM (0NdlF)

563
"Trump is the far-left's dream candidate for the Republicans. Particularly this cycle, when we had such a strong, deep field."
Naw, Pasta man.
IF the far left wanted Trump as the republican candidate, then they'd be upset with Tapper today. In fact, Tapper wouldn't have done what he did last night at all.
No. Last night is clear evidence against your theory of a conspiracy of democrats to foist trump on us. Now I love a good conspiracy and I will entertain one if there is evidence to support it. In fact I think they conspired to bolster McCain. I expect they will conspire to bolster Carly. I see no evidence they are bolstering Trump at this point. You could make the argument that all the coverage they gave him in the last 3 weeks or so was evidence but if they wanted to make him the nominate in the end, why try so hard to kill him last night.

Posted by: simplemind at September 17, 2015 04:22 PM (XkdIH)

564 Who said vaccines cannot have adverse effects in rare cases? What people have said is that their is no scientific evidence that vaccines can cause autism.

Posted by: Max Rockatansky at September 17, 2015 04:10 PM (Q3fP7)

Why "rare"?

The autism issue is just one piece. The general gist that people have been pushing is that anyone who has any doubts about any vaccine is a nut who wants to endanger all of society.

As to the "rare" qualifier ... sometimes a rare vaccination problem can be more deadly to others, as in the case of the polio "sheddder" who has been harboring live, mutated, virulent polio and shedding it in his feces for 30 years. This ability came to him only because of the specific polio vaccine that was administered to him. And this is just one of the ill effects of vaccination that we are only lately beginning to learn about.

The best general rule when one is confronted by something with major benefits is to ask what the risks are. Not just the individual risks but the larger risks, too, as the example with antibiotics demonstrates clearly. Nothing is free and anything that is sold as being free and perfect has to be looked over very, very carefully. For this reason, I am in favor of the basic vaccinations but against vaccinations for diseases that don't really pose dire threats, such as that insane attempt in Texas to force HPV vaccinations on people - and, yes, opt-out or not they were trying to force it.

Posted by: ThePrimordialOrderedPair at September 17, 2015 04:22 PM (zc3Db)

565 Jesus F-ing Christ. You people are arguing like a bunch of Jr. High School girls. It's only Sept 2015 people. Oop's sorry, new policy and all. But what's it gonna be like in Feb?

Posted by: Tinfoilbaby at September 17, 2015 04:22 PM (Ii765)

566 If a man said in 2010 he should be the nominee because he's not a woman, he'd never be able to run for dog catcher for the GOP.

I dunno, I think he'd get 100% of the often-sought "make me a sammich" vote.

This is the GOP, the party whose most revered President was an active and registered Democrat 18 years prior.

Posted by: Ian S. at September 17, 2015 04:22 PM (S+N7W)

567 "Trump is not of this world. He is the embodiment of the SMOD of legends past. He is worthy of jokes on par with the most interesting man in the world or Chuck Norris."

So he is a worthy opponent for His Misbegotten majesty Jeb Bush III? Excellent, High Chancellor Prince Reibus will see that the jousting ring is cleaned up so that the monster may be brought in for His Misbegottenness to run his mighty lance through!

Posted by: Mikey NTH - Autumnal Enormities have Arrived at the Outrage Outlet! at September 17, 2015 04:23 PM (hLRSq)

568
They did a study on Trump's rate of return, and he would have made more money simply letting his assets sit in an index fund than what he made in real estate.
And he would have created no jobs.
Paid less taxes.
Give that a moments thought.

Posted by: simplemind at September 17, 2015 04:23 PM (XkdIH)

569
538
In solidarity,
Bernie SandersPosted by: LizLem at September 17, 2015 04:18 PM (hvf9s).....................That's a whole lot of gargling.

Posted by: wth at September 17, 2015 04:23 PM (wAQA5)

570 Posted by: Bevel Lemelisk at September 17, 2015 04:18 PM (dmQ

If any of the male candidates said what Trump has said in the past they wouldn't be able to run for a schoolboard seat.

Posted by: Max Rockatansky at September 17, 2015 04:23 PM (Q3fP7)

571 12
The bad part about Trump fading is that the GOPe will say it is because Immigration is NOT an important issue.

"See the American People do not care about Illegal Immigration!"

Posted by: rd at September 17, 2015 02:55 PM (DWyvT)

I'm late to the thread, but this times eleventy.

Posted by: kathysaysso at September 17, 2015 04:25 PM (fMQoG)

572 How about an android cat-girl who likes guns and blowing stuff up with good lighting?
Nyah?

Posted by: Anna Puma at September 17, 2015 04:19 PM (tGvsw)

Only if you control your urges when put under a spotlight.

So no.

Posted by: ConservativeMonster at September 17, 2015 04:25 PM (0NdlF)

573
Pretty sure any airline you'd choose to fly has been thru one or more structured bankruptcies.

That was a bit more than a structured bankruptcy. That was a colossal failure resulting in the company being taken by the creditors.
Posted by: JackStraw

Really par for the course. The airline industry is an over-leveraged mess that just Frogger hops until the next fuel price spike makes them go splat:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airline_bankruptcies_in_the_United_States

Posted by: Laurie David's Cervix at September 17, 2015 04:25 PM (kdS6q)

574 I sometimes have a hard time figuring out what he's doing there, too. Jeb! looks like a guy who is being made to make public announcements by a group of people who have his family tied up somewhere, threatening to kill them if he doesn't say exactly what they tell him to say.

Posted by: BurtTC at September 17, 2015 04:21 PM (TOk1P)

_________

I think it's the classic if I become president maybe my daddy will be proud of me scenario. He doesn't want it, he just feels like it's the family legacy or some bullshit like that. So he's putting in in a half assed effort. If he wins, great, if not, oh well, he tried. There's always his son who is already being talked about as the next in line for the Bush Dynasty throne.

Posted by: Monsieur Mew Mew at September 17, 2015 04:26 PM (0LHZx)

575 Republicans/conservatives, however, now have to try to figure out which GOP candidates, if any, will NOT BETRAY THEM.

And I frankly don't trust ANY of them. This is the shit swamp that the GOPe has stranded us in.

Posted by: Bat Chain Puller at September 17, 2015 02:57 PM (SCcgT)[

This. Because I have an acid feeling in my stomach when I realize that no-matter who I vote for, that candidate will probably turn face and betray me by the week after the inauguration. Because reality. Because Realpolitik.

Realpolitik apparently means you sell your people out for peace.

Posted by: Kindltot at September 17, 2015 04:26 PM (3pRHP)

576

The autism issue is just one piece. The general gist that people have been pushing is that anyone who has any doubts about any vaccine is a nut who wants to endanger all of society.

Also FYI everybody. There is a NATIONAL VACCINE INJURY COMPENSATION BOARD. It is a governmental body that pays out for injuries to children due to vaccines. Its been around a long time and paid out many many millions of dollars. Look it up. Vaccines do cause injury, it just doesn't look like there is a direct autism link. So trump is wrong about autism but has a point about vaccinations as pointed out by Drs. Carson and Paul.

Posted by: simplemind at September 17, 2015 04:26 PM (5vV+V)

577 Why would a Trump supporter be in the pay of George Soros?
Posted by: FenelonSpoke at September 17, 2015 03:57 PM (dKQ1C)

Bidding war at the Secret Cave Of Evil?

Posted by: troyriser at September 17, 2015 04:26 PM (f56b1)

578 I guess even so-called "conservatives" are reality TV junkies now, just like the liberals. Substance doesn't matter, no?

Posted by: trumpetdaddy at September 17, 2015 04:01 PM (ljZD2)

Stick this passive aggressive shit up your ass.

Posted by: Pappy O'Daniel at September 17, 2015 04:28 PM (oVJmc)

579 They did a study on Trump's rate of return, and he would have made more money simply letting his assets sit in an index fund than what he made in real estate.

What is hindsight? Oh, that's right, 20/20.
Posted by: rickb223

It also shows you that he hasn't done that well in real estate if you're only eeking out those sorts of returns and you inherited quite a bit of real estate holdings. The risk of those investments far outstripped the rate of return.

Trump made big bucks being a celebrity businessman with his TV show and leveraging his brand.

Jessica Alba (the actress bimbo) is a billionaire on paper from starting a brand of soap and other products. I wouldn't call her some business genius, she just leveraged her celebrity into a brand.

I guess Kim Kardashian should also be running the country since she made a lot of money being a celebrity.

Posted by: Coolio at September 17, 2015 04:28 PM (T7owr)

580 "Name another Republican candidate capable of losing to Joe Biden or Bernie Sanders. Hell, even Pataki would mop the floor with them. "

Actually, I can see quite a few of them capable of losing to Biden. Remember, the MSM will always spin things in his favor if he's the nominee.

Biden's a fool, but he's a sly old fool. An awful lot of people find him likable and his ability to shift from mauldin sentimentality to complete attack dog viciousness while still maintaining the likability factor somehow is formidable. I realized that after the debates with Palin and Ryan. I thought his mocking, contemptuous, undignified behavior would sink him. It didn't. We've seen how he debates - he simply tells lie after lie after lie and then laughs and sneers while his opponents tries to set things straight. And you know he'll play the sympathy card for all its' worth.

Biden worries me. He worries me more than Hill or Sanders.

Posted by: Donna and V. (sans ampersands) at September 17, 2015 04:28 PM (u0lmX)

581 560 I don't owe you a fucking explanation regarding anything. I think Hitchens did an excellent job taking her down a peg or two as well as the cult surrounding her "good works"-- of which there were surprisingly few.

Posted by: Naes at September 17, 2015 04:28 PM (Ypc8j)

582 I guess even so-called "conservatives" are reality TV junkies now, just like the liberals. Substance doesn't matter, no?

_______

Are paid GOPe shills such as yourself?

Posted by: Monsieur Mew Mew at September 17, 2015 04:28 PM (0LHZx)

583 Just remember when Trump fails, the Boehner/McConnell/Rove machine wins.

But yeah let's teach Trump a lesson by giving Rove 8 more years to do his thing.

Stupid party is named that way for a reason.

Posted by: Monsieur Mew Mew at September 17, 2015 04:29 PM (0LHZx)

584
This won't be popular here, but Ted Cruz loses to Joe Biden. I think we tend to underestimate how much people outside of our conservative circles absolutely hate the guy. He has less than zero cross over appeal.
I agree with this comment. Cruz has been demonized to the general public.
Also, soooo many people think Joe Biden is just like them or their father or grand pa, it is just unbelievable. Like it or not Biden is popular among your average dem/independent voter. Biden is going to be a problem.

Posted by: simplemind at September 17, 2015 04:30 PM (5vV+V)

585 Posted by: simplemind at September 17, 2015 04:26 PM (5vV+V)

His point was that if you do as he recommended , spread out the vaccines, you would see a significant drop in autism cases. If he grabs onto that myth what other conspiracy causation issues does he have spinning around in his head?

Posted by: Max Rockatansky at September 17, 2015 04:30 PM (Q3fP7)

586 With any luck, Peak Trump will win some time after he kicks Bush's formerly fat ass in New Hampshire. The next polls will tell the tale. I'm holding my position and not selling off until February.

Posted by: Bill Kristol's gay senator at September 17, 2015 04:33 PM (6gR7l)

587 Posted by: Donna and V. (sans ampersands) at September 17, 2015 04:28 PM (u0lmX)

I agree with you, Donna.

Posted by: FenelonSpoke at September 17, 2015 04:33 PM (dKQ1C)

588 574:

"I think it's the classic if I become president maybe my daddy will be proud of me scenario. He doesn't want it, he just feels like it's the family legacy or some bullshit like that. So he's putting in in a half assed effort. If he wins, great, if not, oh well, he tried. There's always his son who is already being talked about as the next in line for the Bush Dynasty throne."

Part of me wants Jeb out of the race ASAP, and the other wants to see him get his ass kicked so badly in Florida that no one with the last name "Bush" ever slithers into office again.

Posted by: Bill Kristol's gay senator at September 17, 2015 04:35 PM (6gR7l)

589 The general gist that people have been pushing is that anyone who has any doubts about any vaccine is a nut who wants to endanger all of society.
_________________________

The problem is, that "belief" can get children killed. That's why there is a violent reaction to it.

And the flip side is the people that say any pushback on that theory is in the pockets of Pharmacuetical companies.

Nobody would take issue if somebody said "we need to do more studies on vaccines" but to go from "let's be careful" to "vaccines=autism!!!" is a giant leap that has real consequences with innocent children of crazy parents caught in the middle.

Posted by: Coolio at September 17, 2015 04:35 PM (T7owr)

590 Trump never claimed his gender was why he should be the nominee either.
Posted by: Bevel Lemelisk at September 17, 2015 04:01 PM (dmQI5)

As Trump is fond of pointing out, you use every advantage the system gives you to win. If Fiorina's gender is an advantage in the general election--and it is--then she should exploit that advantage to its fullest extent.

By the way, one ofTrump's top. men. should've pointed out to his boss that insulting women, whether singly or en masse, particularly on their looks, is a very bad idea.All of those that didn't give him that advice should be fired.

Posted by: troyriser at September 17, 2015 04:36 PM (f56b1)

591
So, he's wrong, but he's not completely wrong. Because nobody knows what would happen if you spread out the vaccines more. In fact you might see less autism. Or you might see less overall vaccine injuries. See above where I talked about the national vaccine injury compensation board. I AM NOT endorsing Trump. I am saying he stepped in it, like he is prone to do. I do not think it is disqualifying as you do, because I do not believe his mistakes about autism are worse than Fiornia's about global warming. I Don't like it. Its clearly wrong, but its not an absolutedeal breaker. Do I wish our candidates would stop saying stupid things? YES.
At least he didn't say there was a magic hockey goalie that prevented pregnancy in rapes, or "I am not a witch".

Posted by: simplemind at September 17, 2015 04:37 PM (5vV+V)

592 Just remember when Trump fails, the Boehner/McConnell/Rove machine wins.
Posted by: Monsieur Mew Mew at September 17, 2015 04:29 PM (0LHZx)

False dilemma. A fallacy. It isn't The Donald or the abyss. Try again.

Posted by: troyriser at September 17, 2015 04:38 PM (f56b1)

593 "This. Because I have an acid feeling in my stomach when I realize that no-matter who I vote for, that candidate will probably turn face and betray me by the week after the inauguration. Because reality. Because Realpolitik"

Which is why I am certainly not going to get angry and trade nasty insults with Morons and 'ettes over this candidate or that candidate. I like Cruz, Fiorina and Jindal. I recognize that Jindal's not going anywhere and that there are serious problems with Cruz and Fiorina. And with Trump, who I'll vote for if he is the nominee.

But I don't trust him. I don't trust ANY of them not to sell out. We've seen it happen how often since 2010 (and before that. Remember the '94 Contract With America? How much did they actually shrink government?)

And at bottom, I don't think it matters that much anymore. I don't think any single person, even the one in the Oval Office, can turn things around at this point. The bullshit is going to keep right on going until it can't anymore.

I hate that I have become a bitter and cynical woman - when it comes to politics at least. But I have.

Posted by: Donna and V. (sans ampersands) at September 17, 2015 04:39 PM (u0lmX)

594 "This won't be popular here, but Ted Cruz loses to Joe Biden. I think we tend to underestimate how much people outside of our conservative circles absolutely hate the guy. He has less than zero cross over appeal.
I agree with this comment. Cruz has been demonized to the general public.
Also, soooo many people think Joe Biden is just like them or their father or grand pa, it is just unbelievable. Like it or not Biden is popular among your average dem/independent voter. Biden is going to be a problem.
Posted by: simplemind at September 17, 2015 04:30 PM (5vV+V)"

I don't know that Biden is a huge problem if you have the right candidate, I don't know if Biden is a shoe in for the nomination either, I think it depends on who else might get in. I do think Hillary is done though. It's just guys like Cruz, who has been so demonized and cartoonized, is a problem as a nominee, or a VP pick. After the green eggs and ham thing, I think I used the term "Palinized". I don't know that he would have the personality or be able to make the PR moves to navigate around that.

Trump look at his negative numbers at the onset of his campaign, he has (assuming he holds after last night) almost reversed them. The guy is amorphous and can project himself out to whatever the casual observer wants to see him as. That's obviously a problem for anyone looking for conservative bonafides but I don't think anyone else on our side ( and certainly no one on our side in the last few cycles) has had the ability to do that. He's already made so many unforced errors that would have driven a stake through the heart of any other campaign. Jeb Bush drops that comment about Megyn Kelly after the debate, his campaign is over tomorrow. Trump just keeps digging and coming out the other side stronger than he was before.

Posted by: Dr. Shatterhand at September 17, 2015 04:39 PM (n/ogz)

595 The (fraudulent) link between autism and vaccines was because of thimerosal, a mercury-based preservative.

The idea that the multi-serum shots should be spread out individually isn't revolutionary or bizzare, whether because of an unproven link to autism or other factors.

Posted by: Pappy O'Daniel at September 17, 2015 04:40 PM (oVJmc)

596 This won't be popular here, but Ted Cruz loses to Joe Biden. I think we tend to underestimate how much people outside of our conservative circles absolutely hate the guy.
_______________________

I would be ecstatic with President Ted Cruz, but I think his problem has little to do with his ideology and more to do with his presentation. He's just very unlikable, even rock-ribbed conservative friends find him unbearable. Hillary has the same issue.

People can dismiss charisma as a silly thing to value, but Reagan's success had a lot to do with his skills. Imagine if we had instead nominated Jesse Helms. Even though ideologically they were nearly the same, Reagan's demeanor made all the difference.

Posted by: Coolio at September 17, 2015 04:40 PM (T7owr)

597 FenelonSpoke -- oops, sorry. The Felon thing was unintentional, I'm tired.

Posted by: Pastafarian at September 17, 2015 04:40 PM (LqrRo)

598 I don't owe you a fucking explanation regarding anything

I don't think she was saying you "owed" it to anyone. She was just asking for clarification

And, of course, Hitchens was not unbiased observer.

I don't think nuns are required to develop jobs programs, and as for what good she did-compassion and dignity is probably something that can't be quantified by charts and graphs.

Posted by: FenelonSpoke at September 17, 2015 04:41 PM (dKQ1C)

599 I agree with this assessment of Cruz, I don't see him having the appeal to win the general, let alone the primary.

and he's my number one guy.

Posted by: prescient11 at September 17, 2015 04:41 PM (W7w/T)

600 "I would be ecstatic with President Ted Cruz, but I think his problem has little to do with his ideology and more to do with his presentation. He's just very unlikable, even rock-ribbed conservative friends find him unbearable. Hillary has the same issue.

People can dismiss charisma as a silly thing to value, but Reagan's success had a lot to do with his skills. Imagine if we had instead nominated Jesse Helms. Even though ideologically they were nearly the same, Reagan's demeanor made all the difference.
Posted by: Coolio at September 17, 2015 04:40 PM (T7owr)"

I think that's a big part of it, I have no problem with his ideology, but I'm not a huge fan of him just based on the delivery. That and I thought his filibuster was a side show that was pre-ordained with harry reid to elevate himself in advance of declaring for his presidential run.

Posted by: Dr. Shatterhand at September 17, 2015 04:43 PM (n/ogz)

601 Cruz needs to stop talking into the camera. I like him on the issues but the always preachy person is very off-putting.

Posted by: CD at September 17, 2015 04:43 PM (UlBzo)

602 Cruz is always trying to prove that he's the smartest guy in the room instead of just wearing it naturally. He is usually the smartest guy in the room but for whatever reason he always has to try and show it.

And he does look like Eddie Munster.

He'd be an excellent SC justice. His fundraising will keep him in it longer than others but he isn't going to be the nominee.

Posted by: trumpetdaddy at September 17, 2015 04:44 PM (ljZD2)

603 Posted by: Pastafarian at September 17, 2015 04:40 PM (LqrRo)

No problem; I'd hardly be one to throw stones at people for typos (being an egregiously poor typist myself) and "FelonSpoke" always makes me laugh anyway.

Posted by: FenelonSpoke at September 17, 2015 04:44 PM (dKQ1C)

604 I think Hitchens did an excellent job taking her down a peg or two as well as the cult surrounding her "good works"-- of which there were surprisingly few.
Posted by: Naes at September 17, 2015 04:28 PM (Ypc8j)

Ah, yes, Hitchens. The Trotskyite who found favor with many conservatives because he backed the Iraq War. He was a gifted polemcist, certainly, but remained a left-winger who was as dishonest and vicious when it came to religion as Bill Maher, although he was much smarter than Maher is.

Posted by: Donna and V. (sans ampersands) at September 17, 2015 04:44 PM (u0lmX)

605 Cry me a river Max. Carly made fun of Boxer's hair with a frigging mike on.

oh noes, the little ladies are getting offended.

hahahahahahahaha. Good one!!

Posted by: prescient11 at September 17, 2015 04:44 PM (W7w/T)

606 Not a big Trump fan, but I'd take him over a SJW like Hillary or Fiorina any day of the week.

Posted by: gm at September 17, 2015 04:46 PM (/kBoL)

607
The (fraudulent) link between autism and vaccines was because of thimerosal, a mercury-based preservative.

The idea that the multi-serum shots should be spread out individually isn't revolutionary or bizzare, whether because of an unproven link to autism or other factors.

This is true. This is what I am trying to get across to others. Thanks for saying it better.
Biden is going to be a problem. He's got full top cover from the MSM. He's got the sympathy angle covered.Believe me my inlaws when crazy over him on that stupid Colbert show last week. All of their democratic friends did also. They sent me emails. It was ridiculous. I shit you not. And worst of all -- I am in OHIO!!!!

Posted by: simplemind at September 17, 2015 04:46 PM (5vV+V)

608 If Trump tanks, it's not just this debate. I had the TV on during his Alabama speech a few days ago, and he must have referred to himself millions of times. It was really icky.

Icky is the term I used to describe Rick Perry in 2012.

I've been trying to understand and even support Trump... but one or two really icky moments can destroy lots of good will.

What kind of leader only cares about himself? The Obama kind.

I'm not okay with that.

And last night he did nothing to over come the icky factor.

Posted by: petunia at September 17, 2015 04:47 PM (VoCyE)

609 I agree with this assessment of Cruz, I don't see him having the appeal to win the general, let alone the primary.

and he's my number one guy.
Posted by: prescient11 at September 17, 2015 04:41 PM (W7w/T)

I SHOULD like Cruz, I really want to like they guy, but even if somebody like me that agrees with him almost all the time, I find myself so put off by him. I can't imagine he has a prayer to a true swing voter.

He would of course get my vote in the General as I don't care about "finding a friend" but I could easily see him losing to even Joe Biden

Posted by: Coolio at September 17, 2015 04:47 PM (T7owr)

610 581 560 I don't owe you a fucking explanation regarding anything.
Posted by: Naes at September 17, 2015 04:28 PM (Ypc8j)

You were addressed in a civil fashion, asked by a well-respected 'ette to explain yourself, and that's how you reply?

Nice going, ahole.

Posted by: Donna and V. (sans ampersands) at September 17, 2015 04:49 PM (u0lmX)

611 592 Just remember when Trump fails, the Boehner/McConnell/Rove machine wins.
Posted by: Monsieur Mew Mew at September 17, 2015 04:29 PM (0LHZx)

False dilemma. A fallacy. It isn't The Donald or the abyss. Try again.
Posted by: troyriser at September 17, 2015 04:38 PM (f56b1)

__________

It's going to be either a member of the GOPe or an outsider. The only real outsider with a chance to win is Trump. Ergo, if he loses the GOPe wins.

Posted by: Senor Marco at September 17, 2015 04:50 PM (0LHZx)

612 >>>He'd be an excellent SC justice. His fundraising will keep him in it longer than others but he isn't going to be the nominee.
Posted by: trumpetdaddy at September 17, 2015 04:44 PM (ljZD2)>>>

Which of the candidates would nominate him? By my estimation, the only one that might would be Trump.

Posted by: gm at September 17, 2015 04:51 PM (/kBoL)

613 At the rate we're going someone is going to be banned before the clock strikes 6;00.

Posted by: FenelonSpoke at September 17, 2015 04:51 PM (dKQ1C)

614 Yes that charisma prevented Cruz from winning the Senate seat from a Perry endorsed successful Lt Governor.

Posted by: Max Rockatansky at September 17, 2015 04:51 PM (Q3fP7)

615 although he was much smarter than Maher is.
Posted by: Donna and V. (sans ampersands) at September 17, 2015 04:44 PM (u0lmX)

_________

Not that hard to do.

Posted by: Monsieur Mew Mew at September 17, 2015 04:53 PM (0LHZx)

616 "Which of the candidates would nominate him? By my estimation, the only one that might would be Trump."

I don't know that any of the would. I just personally think his background and temperament are better suited to that arena than electoral politics. He has one exactly one election that was contested and that was against the miserable David Dewhurst. After that one, winning the general election in Texas was a formality.

He's never been really tested in a non-red state election. Several of the other candidates have been.

Posted by: trumpetdaddy at September 17, 2015 04:54 PM (ljZD2)

617 Posted by: simplemind at September 17, 2015 04:46 PM (5vV+

No you just said you might see a drop in autism if the vaccines were spread out. There is no link to autism.

Posted by: Max Rockatansky at September 17, 2015 04:54 PM (Q3fP7)

618 Yes that charisma prevented Cruz from winning the Senate seat from a Perry endorsed successful Lt Governor.
Posted by: Max Rockatansky

I could say the same for how Mitt Romney won deep blue Massachusetts

Posted by: Coolio at September 17, 2015 04:55 PM (T7owr)

619
Kasich was not good at all. Cruz committed a mercy killing of him on the Iran deal. You could see Kasich dying of a stroke during the response and then the light went out of his eyes when Cruz succinctly pointed out the deal requires us to let them inspect themselves, thus catching them cheating is well . . . unlikely to say the least.
Kasich means well, but he hit is ceiling in government with governor of Ohio. Plus, the police and fire unions still hate him worse than the Unions hate Walker.

Posted by: simplemind at September 17, 2015 04:56 PM (5vV+V)

620 I think Cruz comes across at not terribly charismatic because years of being on the debate team at Princeton (while being a conservative in a liberal setting) and being a lawyer makes him prone to a style that is like lecturing. It's artificial in public speaking. I respect him and i think he's very smart but I;d be surprised if he gets the nomination.. I don't suspect Calvin Coolidge was very charismatic either but I think he was probably an excellent President

Posted by: FenelonSpoke at September 17, 2015 04:56 PM (dKQ1C)

621
You know what? I keep forgetting that the electorate has changed.

I never have seen any national politician annihilate another like Mitt did to Obama in the first debate of 2012. Nothing in living memory even comes close.

And at the end of the day, it didn't matter. Mitt didn't have the touchy/feeling stuff. Which might go a long way in explaining why Cruz is so ineffective.

Personally I think woman's suffrage is to blame. %^}

Posted by: Levin at September 17, 2015 04:56 PM (mgl7C)

622 False dilemma. A fallacy. It isn't The Donald or the abyss.

Correct. It's the abyss regardless.

Posted by: Brother Cavil, down with Eph 6:12-13 at September 17, 2015 04:57 PM (9krrF)

623 "Which of the candidates would nominate him? By my estimation, the only one that might would be Trump.
Posted by: gm at September 17, 2015 04:51 PM (/kBoL)"

We are too busy pretending to be worried about Trump appointing his liberal sister to think about a Cruz appointment. I know the guy is a free spirit honeybadger but that would be an unprecedented level of nepotism that we haven't seen since what Kennedy?

Posted by: Dr. Shatterhand at September 17, 2015 04:58 PM (n/ogz)

624 Posted by: Coolio at September 17, 2015 04:55 PM (

You thought Romney had no chance to win the Presidential election because he had no charisma?

Posted by: Max Rockatansky at September 17, 2015 04:59 PM (Q3fP7)

625 Trump is not fading in the least. He got higher numbers on the latest Drudge, Time, Newsmax online polls
----------------------------
"Sorry, but such just are not meaningful in the big scheme of things."

My point was that last time, after the first debate, Trump got great numbers on the online polls those numbers DID translate into great numbers for the standard polls that followed a week later. So there is a reason to think the same thing is happening. Either maintaining his large lead or increasing his large lead.

Posted by: Misfortune & Pestilence at September 17, 2015 04:59 PM (jSTDs)

626 620 I think Cruz comes across at not terribly charismatic because years of being on the debate team at Princeton (while being a conservative in a liberal setting) and being a lawyer makes him prone to a style that is like lecturing. It's artificial in public speaking. I respect him and i think he's very smart but I;d be surprised if he gets the nomination.. I don't suspect Calvin Coolidge was very charismatic either but I think he was probably an excellent President
Posted by: FenelonSpoke

I think that's part of it, also he has a sort of "preacher" type style that just comes across very fake to me, even though what he is saying is sound and I don't have any doubts about his convictions.

It's simply not fair, we live in a television age and usually the more likeable, charismatic guy wins. It's a crappy way to pick the leader of the free world.

Posted by: Coolio at September 17, 2015 05:01 PM (T7owr)

627 I also like Cruz, but I don't think my married girlfriends will. They like charisma, they wanted to vote for Obama cause all the cool people were doing it.

Posted by: CaliGirl at September 17, 2015 05:03 PM (BHl9S)

628 621
This!!

Posted by: CaliGirl at September 17, 2015 05:04 PM (BHl9S)

629 You thought Romney had no chance to win the Presidential election because he had no charisma?
Posted by: Max Rockatansky

I wouldn't say no chance, but he was pretty robotic and cold.

Posted by: Coolio at September 17, 2015 05:04 PM (T7owr)

630 Actually, I don't think Romney was all that lacking in charisma. I just think there were so many factors we've all discussed in why he lost.

Posted by: FenelonSpoke at September 17, 2015 05:05 PM (dKQ1C)

631 I don't trust ANY of them not to sell out. We've seen it happen how often since 2010 (and before that. Remember the '94 Contract With America? How much did they actually shrink government?)

One of the things i always remind myself of is that when i first got interested in politics during the Reagan years, he left the top tax rate at 28%, down a huge amount from 70%. In the 30 years since then, when R's have had more congressional power than at any other time in this countries history, tax rates have done nothing but go up, except for a temporary, and essentially meaningless compared to Reagan, 4% point dip during W's years. So yeah, it's hard to have much faith that any of them are actually sincere in shrinking govt.

Posted by: All Teh Meh at September 17, 2015 05:07 PM (VviqM)

632 And I don't think Obama was terribly charismatic either. The MS just made him out to be. He was "it".

Posted by: FenelonSpoke at September 17, 2015 05:08 PM (dKQ1C)

633 "Romney and Trump are the opposite of each other. In every way including the way they do business. "

Yeah, Trump will win. Trump won't have an dead whale (ORCA?) campaign in disarray on election day.

Trump actually produced real goods and real services and is a billionaire. Romney made his money off buying existing companies and selling them as scraps on paper and is no where near as wealthy as Trump.

Posted by: Misfortune & Pestilence at September 17, 2015 05:09 PM (jSTDs)

634 Trump might win, but he has to get the nomination first. With the number of people out gunning for him that's not a given and if he got the nomination the MSM joining in against him it will be worse that what Romney got.

Posted by: FenelonSpoke at September 17, 2015 05:12 PM (dKQ1C)

635 631.

To be fair though, I don't think you can use that one single metric of comparing the top, marginal rates,

There have been all sorts of tax reductions in capital gains, dividends, death tax, lower income brackets, etc.

But most of the big tax increases came under Clinton and the Democrat Congress he came in with.

Trump wants to raise taxes even more on the top, so I don't think that makes a great case for Trump.

Posted by: Coolio at September 17, 2015 05:13 PM (T7owr)

636 Yep one poll and the Trump surge is over. Asinine.

Posted by: Chris Vaughn at September 17, 2015 05:13 PM (Bcqod)

637 I never have seen any national politician annihilate another like Mitt did to Obama in the first debate of 2012. Nothing in living memory even comes close.

And at the end of the day, it didn't matter. Mitt didn't have the touchy/feeling stuff.

Well, i really don't think it was the lack of touchy/feely stuff as much as it was Romney playing it safe in the next 2 debates and just letting Obama (and Crowley) walk all over him.

Posted by: All Teh Meh at September 17, 2015 05:15 PM (VviqM)

638 Posted by: Coolio at September 17, 2015 05:13 PM (T7owr)

Yeah, all that's true, it's just tough not to expect more after seeing what Reagan did.

Posted by: All Teh Meh at September 17, 2015 05:18 PM (VviqM)

639 America has spoken - it wants open borders and unlimited aliens milking the system, but we cannot talk about it because of PC...

Pretty sure Trump had one other position, none of three any other candidate endorses.

Posted by: Burnt Toast at September 17, 2015 05:19 PM (NaeCR)

640 "Trump wants to raise taxes even more on the top, so I don't think that makes a great case for Trump.
Posted by: Coolio at September 17, 2015 05:13 PM (T7owr)"

I just can't bring myself to care about those tax rates any more, I mean, maybe it's a temporary deal with the devil and everyone's will go up, but I don't see a few points, and closing of loopholes going to tank the economy. I mean I prefer they not go up ultimately, but I really just dont care any more.

I was commuting to the NYC for work during the peak of the occupy movement, and it was a steam garbage pile both literally and figuratively, but I get the angst from those people now about going after the 1%ers, driving the Lizzy Warrens of the world. I mean if we're going to sacrifice some demographic, why not them? They f**king hate us anyway and will do anything they can to stab us in the back. I don't mind stabbing them in the front.

If Trump can sell that, with the immigration stuff, I don't see how he loses.

Posted by: Dr. Shatterhand at September 17, 2015 05:27 PM (n/ogz)

641 Peak Trump??? LOL. Teflon Don. He is still killing it. No other candidate breaks double digits except Carly in Drudge's post debate poll. Trump is leading with a commendable 51%. Fiorina at 22%. Carson at a surprising at 4.2%.

Exit question, how relevant is Drudge and his readership? VERY! It should speak volumes.

Posted by: mossomo at September 17, 2015 05:32 PM (Cd7Nb)

642 Best thing you've written about Trump so far. Your hope that he won't try to get ahead by softening up shows you're hearing the music, which is all a supporter would ask, on the grounds that, to do his best work, an essayist, however brilliant, must have at least some rapport with the subject of his speculations. Thanks, as always.

Posted by: herb borkland at September 17, 2015 05:35 PM (AZ4sn)

643 I want to support Cruz, but it's a pretty simple problem for Cruz. His ability to win the nomination is in direct correlation with his willingness to directly light up Mitch McConnell. He would need to go 100% balls to the wall scorched earth with it, and he'll get a lot of support, but long term he'd won't have much to show for it.

Problem is you have that 10% of America that consolidates around Rubio, Bush, Kasich, Christie. The ones that don't think there is anything all that wrong with the GOP, and likes to pretend they are the sensible electable ones. They in reality have a very small level of influence, but the GOP is not so wildly popular that they can't tip the scales, and they are not reluctant to do it. They don't suck it up like we have for decades. They're the Arlen Specter, Murkowski, Thad Cochran apologists, and they don't live by the standard they insist upon others.

So, Ted Cruz is unelectable. Now, if he lights up the GOP and escalates the breakup of this party, I'd become one that would vote for him, but my interests aren't the GOP's exactly.

Posted by: Dave S. at September 17, 2015 05:36 PM (mhkbv)

644 Wish casting by some. Nothing more nothing less. Wait for the real 3 day rolling polls to come out then get back to me with the Trump is dead meme for the 21st time.

Posted by: Ivanka at September 17, 2015 05:38 PM (HxfDZ)

645 Has any candidate other than Trump yet promised any kind of victory on any issue that matters? I didn't watch the debate, so let me know, thanks.

Posted by: joeclark.phd at September 17, 2015 05:44 PM (1viaH)

646 Fiorina's accounting practices at Lucent were borderline criminal. One of her fave tricks was financing high risk customers to boost sales. I got an earful from my neighbor who was a sales rep for that wonderful co.

Posted by: Super67 at September 17, 2015 05:54 PM (aHX05)

647 trumpetdaddy: "He'd be an excellent SC justice. His fundraising will keep him in it longer than others but he isn't going to be the nominee."

Okay, you said this about Ted Cruz, a man born abroad to a single Citizen, who thinks he qualifies for President.

Does that mean you support the John Roberts types who have no problem re-writing the Constitution to suit their opinions, because, guess what? That is Ted Cruz. He belongs in the Senate, that is all.

Posted by: doug at September 17, 2015 07:03 PM (oB9AT)

648 She lost miserably in California.

Posted by: nay sayer at September 17, 2015 03:02 PM (CzhL0)

Says nothing. She was going against the Boxer machine and the Bay area LIVS including Berkley and the largely communistic support drones. Had she had won - I would have been more worried.

Posted by: Cheri at September 17, 2015 07:16 PM (ZFPMM)

649 What I cannot describe is a passionate Fiorina supporter. No idea who that might be.
Posted by: MTF at September 17, 2015 03:11 PM (LISuA)

Liberals who are casting a "vagina vote"

Posted by: D H at September 17, 2015 07:16 PM (pogdq)

650 Liberals who are casting a "vagina vote"

Posted by: D H

Um, no. I am as conservative as they come and firmly believe that skin color and gender should have nothing to do with choosing a competent candidate.

I do like Carly because I have watched her now in many interviews and in 2 debates and she doesn't trip up, is consistent, and very smart. Her answer last night regarding talks with Putin was right on. We have talked to the man enough - he only respects strength and building up our military and increased shows of the strength is the only way to keep the former KGB thug at bay.

I really don't know about her "horrible tenure at HP" and I have read many contradicting takes that make it even more confusing. I am looking at what she says now.

Saying that anyone who would consider voting for her is a "liberal" or a SJW is wrong.

Posted by: Cheri at September 17, 2015 07:32 PM (ZFPMM)

651 Carly Fiorina is Jamie Gorelick

Posted by: Burnt Toast at September 17, 2015 07:57 PM (NaeCR)

652 "Okay, you said this about Ted Cruz, a man born abroad to a single Citizen, who thinks he qualifies for President."

Please tell me it's a full moon.

There are at least a dozen substantive reasons to not support Ted Cruz, and this is the one you're going with? You're doing it wrong.

I thought the same thing about Obama birthers back in the day. There were at least 3 dozen reasons not to support Obama and this was the one that got press? It was almost as if the birther cranks were being played up by the press to make all legitimate criticism of Obama seem whack-job by being associated with them. Hmmmm....

Posted by: trumpetdaddy at September 17, 2015 08:24 PM (ljZD2)

653 I thought the same thing about Obama birthers back
in the day. There were at least 3 dozen reasons not to support Obama and
this was the one that got press? It was almost as if the birther cranks
were being played up by the press to make all legitimate criticism of
Obama seem whack-job by being associated with them. Hmmmm....

Posted by: trumpetdaddy at September 17, 2015 08:24 PM (ljZD2)

There is a certain thought process that is baffling to many. One question, my question, pass-fail. You might call it a 'litmus test'.
More nuanced people may look at it as a 'meta-problem' with an unknown number of unknown variables to be hashed out to come to a rational solution.
Some may look at as a much-dimensional problem with an infinite number of right/acceptable answers AND with an infinite number of wrong answers where the wrong answer is readily ascertainable... say designing a high-rise on the San Andreas, if on page 1 of 1000 pages of calcs it is stated that the seismic zone is 1, but should be 4, then EVERYTHING after page 1 is wrong, regardless of how many times it says "2+2 =4".

Posted by: Burnt Toast at September 17, 2015 08:39 PM (NaeCR)

654 Democrats do this all the time. "Vote for me because everybody else is!" You don't want to be left off the bandwagon, do you?

Posted by: JohnJ at September 17, 2015 11:08 PM (TF/YA)

655 Wait, what happened to Carson? I thought he was the ineluctable threat to Trump. Way down there in this shock poll.

I mean, I get that standings can change but Fiorina just looks like the current X-candidate to Trump.

Posted by: cmp at September 18, 2015 11:14 AM (Z619l)

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