The Truth about H-1B Visas

Definitely worth your reading. Apparently Michelle Malkin (who alerted me to this as an issue on the podcast) has a book coming out about this later this year.

Great post.

This brings up a Donald Trump story from yesterday. Trump's immigration principles, released over the weekend, made a big splash and may have changed the national debate.

But have they changed Trump's mind?

CNN catches him in a real -- not made up, real -- contradiction between his just-announced determination to crack down on H-1B visa abuse and his apparent current (on Tuesday) enthusiasm for H-1B's.

"When foreigners attend our great colleges & want to stay in the U.S., they should not be thrown out of our country," Trump tweeted on Tuesday. "I want talented people to come into this country -- to work hard and become citizens. Silicon Valley needs engineers, etc."

But in a section of his immigration proposal entitled "Put American Workers First," Trump blames "the influx of foreign workers" for keeping salaries from growing, keeping unemployment high and making it difficult for "poor and working class Americans ... to earn a middle class wage."

CNN reached out to Trump's campaign to explain the discrepancy, but the they have yet to respond.

Now, in fairness, Trump did not call for an end to H-1Bs, as no one would, anywhere; he sounded notes about their abuse and the depressive effect on US wages (an intended depressive effect -- cheap foreign workers aren't being recruited to increase wages, after all).

But it is strange to hear him go off on a seeming contradiction, at least in spirit, of the principles he just announced.

Many people suspect that people like Jeff Sessions and his folks put together those principles for Trump. I don't mind that; candidates get ideas from all sorts of places, and there's no requirement a candidate invent every plank of his agenda.

But on Tuesday, he's immediately repeating the corporate/WSJ/Establishment talking points used in support of the the Moar H-1Bs corporate contingent -- that we "need" engineers and cannot get them at home, etc.

Did Trump even read this document?

I'm not asking for consistency with his previous statements from Trump at this point -- but can I at least demand a little familiarity?

This rankles me particularly, because I was giving Trump a Second Look based on the document released over the weekend. All right, I conceded, on this issue, I guess he's serious about it.

But now he starts talking about the wonders of foreign workers again, and I have to take a Second Look at my Second Look.

Does he bother reading the documents drafted in his name, or what? Is this all just "What's in Trump's gut at any particular moment"?

Posted by: Ace at 01:12 PM

Comments

(Jump to bottom of comments)

1 And so it begins.

Posted by: Kreplach at August 19, 2015 01:14 PM (mysAS)

2 Buffoons gotta buffoon

Posted by: Misanthropic Humanitarian at August 19, 2015 01:15 PM (OLNwX)

3 Every American engineer I know would privately call for an end to H-1Bs. It just means it is much harder to get a job that requires 3 years domain experience, essentially a SME (Subject Matter Expert), for an entry level job out of college.

Posted by: But so what? at August 19, 2015 01:15 PM (7wyDO)

4 American trains should be driven by American engineers.

Posted by: Joe Biden at August 19, 2015 01:16 PM (8ZskC)

5 This isn't the first time Trump has publicly contradicted his written plan. Plan talks about deporting criminal aliens only, he told Chuck Todd on MTP that all illegals should be deported.

Posted by: Mark1971 at August 19, 2015 01:17 PM (vaR50)

6 I'm not asking for consistency with his previous statements from Trump at this point -- but can I at least demand a little familiarity?

I have to say it was a head scratcher on that.

Maybe the idea is to create some confusion so his position is more nebulous? I can't imagine why.

I gotta figure he was just speaking what he believes at that moment. Trump ain't a principled guy.

Posted by: Bevel Lemelisk at August 19, 2015 01:17 PM (F+8iM)

7 I get this feeling he's just Trumpin what feels good for him, at the time.

Posted by: Bosk at August 19, 2015 01:18 PM (n2K+4)

8 Barack Obama is a SCOAMT.

Posted by: AllenG (DedicatedTenther) - Not dead yet at August 19, 2015 01:18 PM (kff5f)

9 I guess I should go read the link because I'm not seeing the conflict.

Posted by: Grump928(C) at August 19, 2015 01:18 PM (rwI+c)

10 Burn it down.
Scatter the stones.
Salt the earth where it stood.

Posted by: AllenG (DedicatedTenther) - Not dead yet at August 19, 2015 01:18 PM (kff5f)

11 I just got an AS in computer programming through vocational rehab. Pretty much worthless.

Posted by: hadoop at August 19, 2015 01:18 PM (2X7pN)

12
He's a fabulous thinker, just fabulous, terrific, terrific mind. Luxurious.

Posted by: Guy Mohawk at August 19, 2015 01:19 PM (ODxAs)

13 7 I get this feeling he's just Trumpin what feels good for him, at the time.
Posted by: Bosk at August 19, 2015 01:18 PM (n2K+4

As in, Let's kill all the lawyers, except for those in the moron horde?

Posted by: Misanthropic Humanitarian at August 19, 2015 01:19 PM (OLNwX)

14 So Bernie Sanders is now to the right of Trump on H-1B's? I can't keep this s#*t straight.

Posted by: Furious George at August 19, 2015 01:20 PM (UlJ3l)

15 "I'll do x, believe me" - D. Trump

Posted by: hadoop at August 19, 2015 01:20 PM (2X7pN)

16 I think Trump is merely expressing a preference for educated and skilled foreigners over those that shit in their hands and play in it.

Posted by: maddogg at August 19, 2015 01:20 PM (xWW96)

17 So Trump says that students that attend U.S. universities and get degrees in engineering, etc. shouldn't have to go back to their countries because the U.S. can use them.

Then he says that we should cut back on H1B visa so that graduates of the University of Mumbai can't take American jobs.

What is it about these two statements that confuses you, Ace?

Posted by: jwest at August 19, 2015 01:21 PM (P/xrJ)

18 14
So Bernie Sanders is now to the right of Trump on H-1B's? I can't keep this s#*t straight.

----------

Bernie Sanders has ampersands.

Posted by: But so what? at August 19, 2015 01:21 PM (7wyDO)

19 Let in the brainiacs and the green shoots will sprout.

Posted by: Larry Kudlow at August 19, 2015 01:21 PM (W5DcG)

20 I am glad Trump is affecting the debate and forcing everyone to move a certain direction on immigration, BUT...

He is not, has never been, and will never be a serious candidate for office.

Posted by: Tommy V at August 19, 2015 01:21 PM (NBoRH)

21 There is no contradiction....

Those who go to College here??? no Problem....

Those who go crappy Diploma mills in foreign countries... and get certs they don't deserve, so they can then replace Americans...

ie those who are being brought INTO the country through the H1B system, vice already being here after college...

the difference is Yugggeeee....

Posted by: BB Wolf at August 19, 2015 01:21 PM (qh617)

22 Remember in 2007 when a certain Jr. Senator would say one thing, but his web site would say another?

Yeah, I think Trump is actively lying with one of these two positions.

That said, the two aren't actually completely irreconcilable- his statement refers to foreigners who come for college and then stay- so they're here on educational visas first. Does that mean that maybe those people are interested in actual citizenship, and aren't actually on H1-B status? Probably not, but it could.

However, regardless of his actual beliefs, I'm glad to see he's fulfilling the roll of Team Burn it Down candidate so well.

Posted by: AllenG (DedicatedTenther) - Not dead yet at August 19, 2015 01:21 PM (kff5f)

23 16 I think Trump is merely expressing a preference for educated and skilled foreigners over those that shit in their hands and play in it.
Posted by: maddogg
___________________

Are you saying that what we're doing is wrong?

Posted by: EPA's Denver office at August 19, 2015 01:22 PM (UlJ3l)

24 I think Trump is merely expressing a preference for educated and skilled foreigners over those that shit in their hands and play in it.

I guess that's what I'm reading into it as well. I'm just not seeing where Foreigners with advanced degrees from American Universities are 'making it difficult for "poor and working class Americans ... to earn a middle class wage."'

Posted by: Grump928(C) at August 19, 2015 01:22 PM (rwI+c)

25
Yeah,, that Trump guy is all over the map, you know, not consistent like me....

Posted by: Hillary Clinton at August 19, 2015 01:23 PM (HSmrB)

26 NO CONTRADICTION

If someone came to our country to learn in college for four years or more, especially STEM, and if that person decided he wanted to become an American citizen, then yes let him immigrate to our country, maybe even go to the head of the line.

The key phrase:

"I want talented people to come into this country -- to work hard and become citizens."

H1b is NOT an immigration for citizenship policy, it is an immigration for guest worker policy.

Posted by: Make America Great Again at August 19, 2015 01:23 PM (LXJ1e)

27 OH, and for the record, as someone who has had more than one run in with H1B workers taking Jobs I had submitted applications for, that I was more than qualified to fill....

I do have a Dog in the Fight....

Especially as I am an IT worker, locked in a small market (ageing Mom).... who is WAY underemployed.

Posted by: BB Wolf at August 19, 2015 01:23 PM (qh617)

28
As Ace said its not the continuing inconsistency problem, its the familiarity problem with his own policy.

Posted by: Guy Mohawk at August 19, 2015 01:23 PM (ODxAs)

29 I work with a lot of people who come from china, as in born there, and got here on H1Bs. One of the first things they start talking to me about, other than work stuff, is how much they hate black people. I think they watch MSNBC and think that is what white people talk about privately between themselves. It is uncanny.

Posted by: But so what? at August 19, 2015 01:23 PM (7wyDO)

30 Posted by: Hillary Clinton at August 19, 2015 01:23 PM (HSmrB)

Well, in fairness, you're all over the map, too. Just in a different way.

Also, just got a call from the ISS. They say you're blocking their view.

Posted by: AllenG (DedicatedTenther) - Not dead yet at August 19, 2015 01:23 PM (kff5f)

31 Bernie Sanders has ampersands.

Posted by: But so what?
_______________

Is Ampersands treatable? If it's not, then I'd better run for president.

Posted by: Joe Biden at August 19, 2015 01:24 PM (UlJ3l)

32 I do get tired of all the bullshit about a shortage of engineers. There is no shortage of engineers, there is a shortage of people who go through 4 years of extremely difficult course work and then want to work for cheap. The complainers want engineers cheap, thats really all that is happening.

Posted by: maddogg at August 19, 2015 01:24 PM (xWW96)

33 Another boring non-issue. Anti-im just hands everything to the Democrats. Really stupid.

Posted by: I no longer believe in America at August 19, 2015 01:24 PM (ax/pE)

34 Aristotle said you know a thing by what it does

Trump negotiates; in this phase, he's not formulating policy, not campaigning PER SE

he's f*cking sh*t up. Until one understands that, one will be disquieted and perturbed

Posted by: himself at August 19, 2015 01:24 PM (8CdUx)

35 You do realize the Donald is engaged in a 3 dimensional chess match in order to get the nomination?

He's keeping his oppenents, the media, the haters, hell, even his admirers on their toes.

He's a mist, a shadow, if you whisper his name, he's gone.

Posted by: Kreplach at August 19, 2015 01:24 PM (mysAS)

36 Maybe Ace believes Trump is too stupid to come up with two closely related policies.

Perhaps Steve Schmidt secretly wrote both of these and had Trump memorize the words, even though he doesn't understand what he's saying.

This type of thing happens often in Republican politics.

Posted by: jwest at August 19, 2015 01:25 PM (P/xrJ)

37 Is this all just "What's in Trump's gut at any particular moment"?

Dinesh D'Souza made this point about McCain in 2008. He said there's no such thing as McCainism, it's just what the codger thinks on any given day.

He said that as a minor underling in the Reagan administration no one had to ask what policy to persue. "We all knew what the old man wanted".

I would prefer a candidate with a firm grasp on her convictions.

Posted by: Bandersnatch, Team Lefty and Scamp at August 19, 2015 01:25 PM (JtwS4)

38 "I think Trump is merely expressing a preference for educated and skilled foreigners over those that shit in their hands and play in it."
I can understand that point of view.

Posted by: Bosk at August 19, 2015 01:25 PM (n2K+4)

39 28
As Ace said its not the continuing inconsistency problem, its the familiarity problem with his own policy.
Posted by: Guy Mohawk at August 19, 2015 01:23 PM (ODxAs)

Actually it is both.

Posted by: Misanthropic Humanitarian at August 19, 2015 01:26 PM (OLNwX)

40 Yes.

Consistency would be nice from candidates.

Posted by: Pappy O'Daniel at August 19, 2015 01:26 PM (oVJmc)

41 Not expanding the H1-B visa program is racist and I won't even cross the street to spit on Malkin's new book.

Posted by: Geraldo at August 19, 2015 01:26 PM (1CroS)

42 CNN reached out? Maybe he was out of reach. Pro tip: contact him by email or phone.

Posted by: Jay Guevara at August 19, 2015 01:26 PM (oKE6c)

43 Come to college? No problem.

Work on an H1-B? Not ideal. Review and trim.

Stay, without being a US citizen, with a green card? Better, but not ideal. Review and trim.

Become a citizen? You're hired.

Posted by: Feh at August 19, 2015 01:26 PM (an2Lz)

44 Anti-im just hands everything to the Democrats.

What does this sentence mean?

Posted by: Grump928(C) at August 19, 2015 01:26 PM (rwI+c)

45 Poor and working class are hurt by the unskilled border jumpers, not so much the H1B college educated workers, would be the distinction that will be made once someone from his campaign decides to respond.

Posted by: brak at August 19, 2015 01:27 PM (Tj+s6)

46
Policy wise, I here never ending complaints from Leftists about American kids not getting into college, yet are perfectly fine with allowing slots to foreign HB1s.

Posted by: Guy Mohawk at August 19, 2015 01:27 PM (ODxAs)

47 Posted by: Grump928(C) at August 19, 2015 01:26 PM (rwI+c)

I don't know, but it just oozes concern, doesn't it?

Posted by: AllenG (DedicatedTenther) - Not dead yet at August 19, 2015 01:27 PM (kff5f)

48 Skilled foreign workers arewilling to work for less money. So? It is called freedom.I am for having a secure border. I am for deporting criminals. Hell, I'm for making illegals that are just here trying to work go back and do it right. Butthe idea of restrictingH-1Bworkers so Americans don't have to compete against an equally skilled foreigner willing to work for less is routed in laziness and protectionist-nativism. It is cowardly, UnAmerican and a species of socialism.

Posted by: JBrother at August 19, 2015 01:27 PM (tiZ4y)

49
Also, just got a call from the ISS. They say you're blocking their view.

Posted by: AllenG (DedicatedTenther) - Not dead yet at August 19, 2015 01:23 PM (kff5f)

....................................

Shut your whore mouth...

Posted by: Hillary Clinton at August 19, 2015 01:28 PM (HSmrB)

50 I would like some consistency. No I wouldn't.

Posted by: Bertram Cabot Jr. at August 19, 2015 01:28 PM (W5DcG)

51 48 Skilled foreign workers arewilling to work for less money. So? It is called freedom.I am for having a secure border. I am for deporting criminals. Hell, I'm for making illegals that are just here trying to work go back and do it right. Butthe idea of restrictingH-1Bworkers so Americans don't have to compete against an equally skilled foreigner willing to work for less is routed in laziness and protectionist-nativism. It is cowardly, UnAmerican and a species of socialism.
Posted by: JBrother at August 19, 2015 01:27 PM (tiZ4y)

Complete BS

Posted by: Make America Great Again at August 19, 2015 01:28 PM (LXJ1e)

52 If someone came to our country to learn in college for four years or
more, especially STEM, and if that person decided he wanted to become an
American citizen, then yes let him immigrate to our country, maybe even
go to the head of the line.

What if he's pig ignorant, and just wants to mow lawns? Because that's who's at the head of the line right now.

Posted by: Jay Guevara at August 19, 2015 01:29 PM (oKE6c)

53 I don't see the contradiction. I have no problem letting people who spent 4 years (or more, if you include graduate school) stay in the US after they graduate, especially if they graduate with a degree in a in-demand field like STEM.

Posted by: Hayek Vandersloot at August 19, 2015 01:29 PM (HhDLO)

54 OT: Looks like Black Lives Matter activist Shaun King is a crazy evil cracker honkey who lied about being biracial in order to get an Oprah scholarship. See WZ.

Posted by: The Great White Snark at August 19, 2015 01:29 PM (XUKZU)

55 then why are you for any borders at all, jbrother?

Posted by: Feh at August 19, 2015 01:29 PM (an2Lz)

56 I have no problems with H1b visa holders getting an education in critical STEM majors. We all know that Dems have been discouraging any type of useful education for decades in American K12 schools. We'll need those skills in the future.

What must be discouraged is using those visa holders as an excuse for low wages. THAT's what pisses people off.

Posted by: Soona at August 19, 2015 01:30 PM (P25Hh)

57 It is cowardly, UnAmerican and a species of socialism.

WTF? You might have just thrown in Racist! if you are just going to adhom.

Posted by: Grump928(C) at August 19, 2015 01:30 PM (rwI+c)

58 The H-1B program allows employers to temporarily employ foreign workers in the U.S. on a nonimmigrant basis in specialty occupations distinguished merit and ability.

It's simple. We welcome outstanding , experts and accomplished individuals to America. Temporarily

We do NOT approve of the businesses that use this excuse to hire mediocre to below average schlubs at a cheaper wage rate . Permanently ( or rotating in and out of the job so fast that you can't tell the difference. )

These jobs are required to be made available to US workers first. They are intended to be filled with visa holders ONLY if there are NO US WORKERS available.

Posted by: some random meathead at August 19, 2015 01:30 PM (HJqXj)

59
he's not formulating policy

He release a policy on the very thing he commented about.

Posted by: Guy Mohawk at August 19, 2015 01:30 PM (ODxAs)

60 I guess that's what I'm reading into it as well. I'm just not seeing where Foreigners with advanced degrees from American Universities are 'making it difficult for "poor and working class Americans ... to earn a middle class wage."'

It hurts American Engineers. You don't want to hurt American Engineers.

Posted by: Bevel Lemelisk at August 19, 2015 01:30 PM (F+8iM)

61 Trumpin' ain't easy, but it sure is fun!

Posted by: Insomniac at August 19, 2015 01:30 PM (mXn0o)

62

Hey, let's wait and see how Trump defends his unambiguous and well-staked-out policy paper against Illegal Immigration before we jump to the conclusion that he wasn't careful in constructing and reviewing it.

Logically, there is no contradiction between arguing that flooding the job market with cheap, unskilled labor should be stopped but allowing foreigners to LEGALLY attend our universities should be encouraged.

Posted by: _Dave_ at August 19, 2015 01:30 PM (l2dSQ)

63 What if he's pig ignorant, and just wants to mow lawns? Because that's who's at the head of the line right now.
Posted by: Jay Guevara at August 19, 2015 01:29 PM (oKE6c)

---------------------------------

Send his ass home!

Posted by: Make America Great Again at August 19, 2015 01:30 PM (LXJ1e)

64 Ace: "But it is strange to hear him go off on a seeming contradiction, at least in spirit, of the principles he just announced."

Yeah, Team Trump has done the good work of getting expert opinion and tapping into the mainstream zeitgeist, but his follow-through on policy needs work. He has good ammo but he's still too loose a cannon.

For a guy with great memory (self-admitted anyway), he seems to forget significant kernels.

Posted by: AnonymousDrivel at August 19, 2015 01:30 PM (1CroS)

65 Trump's just a con man, Ace. Nothing more or less than that. He says what he thinks people will buy at any given moment. And it works because there's a sucker born every minute. He's not going to fix our broken immigration system. He's all talk. That's all he's ever been.

Posted by: Caiwyn at August 19, 2015 01:30 PM (gB9nl)

66 What if he's pig ignorant, and just wants to mow lawns? Because that's who's at the head of the line right now.
Posted by: Jay Guevara at August 19, 2015 01:29 PM (oKE6c

Are you sure they even want to mow lawns?

Posted by: Misanthropic Humanitarian at August 19, 2015 01:30 PM (OLNwX)

67
I would prefer a candidate with a firm grasp on her convictions.

Posted by: Bandersnatch, Team Lefty and Scamp at August 19, 2015 01:25 PM (JtwS4)

...........................

Here I am baby!!

Posted by: Hillary Clinton at August 19, 2015 01:31 PM (HSmrB)

68 Because we're not East Coast elite writers, we're far too stupid to know instinctively that Trump is just not presidential material.

Hopefully, if our betters continue to point out glaring inconsistencies like this, we will use our simple Midwestern values and conclude Trump is a snake oil salesman.

All I know is all this figuring is making my head hurt awful bad.

Posted by: jwest at August 19, 2015 01:31 PM (P/xrJ)

69 Could he also, besides differentiating on foreigners coming here to study in our schools who then want to become permanent residents, also be referring to those who apply to immigrate here? These two classes of immigrants are different than H1-B 'immigrants', in that the latter doesn't intend to stay here permanently (in theory, at least; we know they overstay all the time).

So my read on this is the first two types want to become citizens, while the H1-B workers want to have jobs here temporarily.

Posted by: GnuBreed at August 19, 2015 01:31 PM (gyKtp)

70 The H-1B program allows employers to temporarily employ foreign
workers in the U.S. on a nonimmigrant basis in specialty occupations .... distinguished merit and ability.

This does NOT include a Indian high school graduate who got an Oracle certification last week.

Posted by: some random meathead at August 19, 2015 01:31 PM (HJqXj)

71 Butthe idea of restrictingH-1Bworkers so Americans don't have to compete against an equally skilled foreigner willing to work for less is routed in laziness and protectionist-nativism.

Next time you might make sure your cut-and-paste is formatted properly.

Here's the issue: in general, Americans *aren't* competing against "an equally skilled foreigner willing to work for less." They're competing against a much less skilled foreigner willing to work for less. If they were (in general) competing against equally skilled foreigners, then wage suppression would not be nearly as bad as it is- because a high skilled foreigner would have multiple offers, and be able to pick the one which provided them the most value.

Heck, at the rates they're paid, they often have multiple offers today- which indicates the value they're expected to bring (hint- a lot less than that "equally skilled" foreigner who only theoretically exists).

Posted by: AllenG (DedicatedTenther) - Not dead yet at August 19, 2015 01:31 PM (kff5f)

72 "When foreigners attend our great colleges & want to stay in the U.S., they should not be thrown out of our country," Trump tweeted on Tuesday. "I want talented people to come into this country -- to work hard and become citizens.

I'm not sure it's a contradiction. I'm not sure that it isn't, but legal immigrants looking to become citizens is a different category of people that H-1B visa holders.

Posted by: Weirddave at August 19, 2015 01:31 PM (WvS3w)

73 WTF? You might have just thrown in Racist! if you are just going to adhom.
Posted by: Grump928(C)

It's probably sexist and homophobic as well.

Posted by: Bertram Cabot Jr. at August 19, 2015 01:31 PM (W5DcG)

74 Generally speaking, these engineers with foreign degrees a laughable compared to foreigners who have earned their degrees in the states.

Posted by: Fritz at August 19, 2015 01:32 PM (UzPAd)

75 Boldly approaching the Barrel.

Posted by: some random meathead at August 19, 2015 01:32 PM (HJqXj)

76 45 Poor and working class are hurt by the unskilled border jumpers, not so much the H1B college educated workers, would be the distinction that will be made once someone from his campaign decides to respond.

Posted by: brak at August 19, 2015 01:27 PM (Tj+s6)

Horse.... shit...

I'm an IT guy.... been working on computers for 35 years.... I helped create this damn industry, and used to Teach Microsoft courses to College students AND industries.

The entire IT industry has NOT had a pay raise in 17 years....

The average MCSE in 1997 when I retired from the Navy made 67K a year.... they now make 65K a year.... in real non adjusted dollars...

Add in inflation, and wage buying power has DECREASED significantly.

These are Blue Collar teck jobs.... once done by AMERICANS who got training here in America...

Now? the training industry is almost dead. Because foreigners come in with both Certifications AND Crap Degrees.... for LESS money.

Sorry... but I've watched this develop for the last 20 years.... and been personally affected by it...

Posted by: BB Wolf at August 19, 2015 01:32 PM (qh617)

77 I don't see a contradiction between coming here and working hard to become citizens and what is, in effect, Senator Session's plan. That has nothing to do with H-1B visas or illegal immigration.

Also, I just sorta defended Trump and now I feel unclean.

*trudges to shower*

Posted by: alexthechick - Yeah I give up at August 19, 2015 01:32 PM (mf5HN)

78 4
American trains should be driven by American engineers.

Posted by: Joe Biden at August 19, 2015 01:16 PM (8ZskC)

That was a good one, Joe! I LOL'ed

Posted by: Zombie Jerry Garcia at August 19, 2015 01:32 PM (jjaLl)

79 It doesn't seem to difficult to me to square these two things together.

We want talented people with technical skillsets to come to this country. But we want them to come and stay here, and become citizens.

The H-1B program needs to be reformed. That doesn't mean that the premise of the program (to get talented people into this country, so that they can become citizens permanently) is something that we disagree with.

We do this kind of thing all the time. We need to reform social security and medicare. The programs are not properly fulfilling their intended purpose. Does this mean we want old people to be poor and to die in the streets without medical care? Of course not.

This really strikes me as more of a situation where some people (including a beloved ewok whose name rhymes with "Mace") have gotten it into their heads that Trump's positions are inconsistent, and not thought out at all. He may be right on individual accounts, but when that's your default reaction to something, you tend to look and read that belief into places where it might necessarily apply.

Posted by: joe at August 19, 2015 01:32 PM (KUaJL)

80 I personally make up my convictions out of whole cloth. But I can wipe away the opposition!

Posted by: Hillary! at August 19, 2015 01:33 PM (dQJCS)

81 Monorail!

Posted by: Trump at August 19, 2015 01:34 PM (Tj+s6)

82
The H-1B program needs to be ~~reformed.~~ ENFORCED.

FTFY

Posted by: some random meathead at August 19, 2015 01:34 PM (HJqXj)

83 I say we just let in attractive chicks with big boobs who are working their way through college.

Posted by: The Great White Snark at August 19, 2015 01:34 PM (XUKZU)

84 I've worked in and around corporate America off and on for much of my professional career. Insofar as company leadership is concerned, the corporate officers who make high level decisions, the decision-making aspect of the job is often binary; that is, they are the final authority to say Stop or Go to sometimes multimillion dollar projects and initiatives, and often make the call on the basis of an executive summary or presentations, along with the advice of their subject matter experts and knowledgeable subordinates. The best executives, like the best generals or admirals in a military context,are able to grasp the big picture in toto, but they typically don't have the time or expertise to know every detail at the micro level. The worst executives are the ones who pretend they know all that is knowable in every aspect. They never do.

My point is that Trump is relying upon others to ensure consistency on complex policy matters. Yes, it's on him when contradictions arise, but Trump thinks and acts like a high level executive. His people let him down in this instance--but again, that's on him, too.

Posted by: troyriser at August 19, 2015 01:34 PM (CAJL/)

85 "if you are just going to adhom"

disappointed it didn't work "trans" into the formula somewhere

Posted by: Feh at August 19, 2015 01:34 PM (an2Lz)

86 a=are

Posted by: Fritz at August 19, 2015 01:34 PM (UzPAd)

87 This isn't a contradiction.

H1Bs allow employers to pay near slave wages to foreigners since they are essentially indentured servants to teh employer. On an H1B an employee can't go get another job with another company unless that company transfers over the visa. That's a pain in the ass and expensive for a company to do. And it takes a long time. So it rarely happens. So Sanjeev from India either stays here making $40K a year for a job that should pay $60K or he goes back to India. So an American competing with Sanjeev has to take a $40K salary.

Now what Trump is proposing is different. Sanjeev graduates from college with a degree in CompSci. He can now go work for any company. And if the prevailing wage is $60K for the job, he will get paid $60K. And the American competing with Sanjeev in this scenario is competing at the $60K level, not at the $40K level.

Posted by: HUCK / AKIN 2016 at August 19, 2015 01:35 PM (0LHZx)

88 Yawn

Posted by: Nevergiveup at August 19, 2015 01:35 PM (DUoqb)

89 83 I say we just let in attractive chicks with big boobs who are working their way through college.
Posted by: The Great White Snark at August 19, 2015 01:34 PM (XUKZU)

Ready, willing and able!

Posted by: Alabama Alpha Phi member at August 19, 2015 01:35 PM (dQJCS)

90

I think the country benefits from some foreign workers. Especially in the more educated niche positions. IBM, for example, benefited from this for most of their existence. Either by hiring them straight out or collaborations, temporary or not. IBM remained strong and still employed thousands of Americans, giving them decent livings, health care and promoted family values (at least from the start).

I do not pretend to read Trump's mind, but he has probably seen the benefits of creative "diversity" and educational "diversity."

The influx of lower paid foreign workers does effect unemployment of younger Americans more so, in my opinion. If we cannot teach our young about hard work, responsibility, and earning one's own wages, we are losing quite a bit here.

Trump may also be talking about the illegality of the influx.

He may just be trying to strike a balance. It's what I would do. Put Americans first, but don't shut the doors completely. We never have, and it has always benefited us. Just do it legally, too.

Posted by: artisanal 'ette at August 19, 2015 01:35 PM (qCMvj)

91 That said, the two aren't actually completely irreconcilable- his statement refers to foreigners who come for college and then stay- so they're here on educational visas first. Does that mean that maybe those people are interested in actual citizenship, and aren't actually on H1-B status? Probably not, but it could.

That's about the way I'm reading it too, Allen. I think Trump is embracing the "good citizen" trope of: if you want to come here legally, work hard and make a better life for yourself, then America wants you, while also, inartfully, inferring that if you're sneaking over the border, you're taking jobs away from the Americans who deserve them and you should be deported. But that's just my reading. YMMV.

O/T, can I just say how depressing it is to hear about Jared Fogle? I always had an admiration for the fellow - yeah, I'm a fat fuck and I'm going to do something about it. I'll walk every day and only eat a Subway. And he lost a lot of weight, got healthy and looked better. Now I find out that he's got short eyes.

Posted by: Mary Poppins' Practically Perfect Piercing at August 19, 2015 01:35 PM (zF6Iw)

92 81 Monorail!
Posted by: Trump at August 19, 2015 01:34 PM (Tj+s6)

Mono-D'oh!

Posted by: Homer Simpson at August 19, 2015 01:35 PM (F+8iM)

93 74 Generally speaking, these engineers with foreign degrees a laughable compared to foreigners who have earned their degrees in the states.
Posted by: Fritz at August 19, 2015 01:32 PM (

That would include doctors and vets.

Posted by: Misanthropic Humanitarian at August 19, 2015 01:36 PM (OLNwX)

94 Being in favor of H1-B visas is not contradictory to being against H1-B visa abuse.

Posted by: VA GOP Sucks at August 19, 2015 01:36 PM (PFy0L)

95 The H1B program is anti-free market, as the ~~serfs~~ workers are tied to the company with the approved application.

Posted by: Grump928(C) at August 19, 2015 01:36 PM (rwI+c)

96 56 I have no problems with H1b visa holders getting an education in critical STEM majors. We all know that Dems have been discouraging any type of useful education for decades in American K12 schools. We'll need those skills in the future.

What must be discouraged is using those visa holders as an excuse for low wages. THAT's what pisses people off.
Posted by: Soona at August 19, 2015 01:30 PM (P25Hh)

-------------------

I do. They are here to work only in areas of identified shortages*. There training should already be complete. Student visa is different than H1b.

* I think this is even BS, but I state it for the sake of argument. We are nation of 320 million people. To say we have a shortage of technical skilled people is laughable.

Posted by: Make America Great Again at August 19, 2015 01:36 PM (LXJ1e)

97 Larry Kudlow: "Let in the brainiacs and the green shoots will sprout."

Larry, Larry, Larry. [sigh] I long for the day when you're with Juan Valdez harvesting the infinite rows of green shoots you've been talking up for decades. Might be the first honest day's work in your life.

Posted by: AnonymousDrivel at August 19, 2015 01:36 PM (1CroS)

98 He release a policy on the very thing he commented about.

Posted by: Guy Mohawk at August 19, 2015 01:30 PM (ODxAs)

nice try, but you didn't notice ( omitted from your edit ) the PER SE

this is 2015, man; everything is policy

EVERYTHING

Posted by: himself at August 19, 2015 01:36 PM (8CdUx)

99 Funny thing. I've noticed that almost all people look more attractive and approachable when they smile. But Rosie O'Donnel, when smiling, is still ugly as hammered shit in a soup bowl. Her ugly really does transcend the flesh.

Posted by: maddogg at August 19, 2015 01:37 PM (xWW96)

100 Further to my post #69 (dude), reading the linked article it makes clear that H1-B holders are classified as nonimmigrants. So that makes the distinction even clearer.

Posted by: GnuBreed at August 19, 2015 01:37 PM (gyKtp)

101 You guys are taking this immigration issue too seriously. It'll all work itself out. Once enough of them get here, this country will be such a third world shit hole that nobody else will want to come.

Posted by: The Great White Snark at August 19, 2015 01:38 PM (XUKZU)

102
*trudges to shower*

Posted by: alexthechick - Yeah I give up at August 19, 2015 01:32 PM (mf5HN)

----------------------

Yes, yes, go on,,, slowly...

Posted by: Hillary Clinton at August 19, 2015 01:38 PM (HSmrB)

103 81
Monorail!

Posted by: Trump at August 19, 2015 01:34 PM (Tj+s6)

Monorail?

Posted by: Sickly Yellow Citizens of Springfield at August 19, 2015 01:38 PM (jjaLl)

104
The whole point is the abuse of the HB1 visas used to bring in low level labor not high level STEM occupations.

BTW, there is abuse of the HB1 visa holders too, they get trapped.

Posted by: Guy Mohawk at August 19, 2015 01:39 PM (ODxAs)

105 H1Bs seem more like a Shelbyville idea.

Posted by: Grump928(C) at August 19, 2015 01:39 PM (rwI+c)

106 D*mn.

You mean this isn't just him presenting himself as a blank canvas and actually has all the earmarks of being a consistent and considered policy? That, even if it is not 100% "consistent" neither is it actually "inconsistent?"

Dammit, Trump, don't make me scrub you from Team Burn it Down.

Posted by: AllenG (DedicatedTenther) - Not dead yet at August 19, 2015 01:39 PM (kff5f)

107 Now, in fairness, Trump did not call for an end to H-1Bs, as no one would, anywhere

--------------------------------

I would. The whole H1-B needs scrapped. I would prefer some sort of auction system. We allow in 5K per year for two years with no chance of citizenship. Companies can then bid for the talent.

Posted by: WOPR at August 19, 2015 01:39 PM (nRvEn)

108 Also, I just sorta defended Trump and now I feel unclean.

*trudges to shower*
Posted by: alexthechick - Yeah I give up at August 19, 2015 01:32 PM (mf5HN

Watch out for the spiders.

Posted by: Misanthropic Humanitarian at August 19, 2015 01:39 PM (OLNwX)

109

Look, there is NO CONTRADICTION.

Saying you are in favor of LEGALLY permitting foreigners to attend high level education and training programs is NOT the same as saying to you want to end the abuse of flooding the American job market with cheap, unskilled labor.

Trump Haters are going to hate on Trump and call him names because that's what they're all about - and not much else.

The Trump Haters elevate their rage above the need to seriously address illegal immigration: which only Trump is doing.

Posted by: _Dave_ at August 19, 2015 01:40 PM (l2dSQ)

110 Actually the amoral troll is correct. Blind squirrel, etc.

This is not a contradiction. The law was written so that we would get foreign workers of distinguished merit and ability.

That is not what is happening right now.

Businesses are using the H visa as a giant body pool of indentured labor including the H1s .

The H2s are unskilled workers. H2A is agricultural and H2B is unskilled ( maids, landscapers etc. )

Regardless of the nominal category , the visa is supposedly temporary . It has been turned into defacto government approved alien smuggling.

Posted by: some random meathead at August 19, 2015 01:40 PM (HJqXj)

111 Trump needs to watch his wording. The other guy who he is overtaking in the polls that say he has the best chance to beat Hillary stuck his foot in his mouth and is plummeting like a rock.

That being said, now that Trump is the guy with the best chance of beating Hillary, we need to start lining up behind him.

We do want the person who can do the number one objective after all. Beat Hillary so we need those damned rabble rowsers to get back in line.

Posted by: Drider at August 19, 2015 01:40 PM (DNFK1)

112 Once enough of them get here, this country will be such a third world shit hole that nobody else will want to come.
Posted by: The Great White Snark at August 19, 2015 01:38 PM (XUKZU)

Libya comes to mind.

Posted by: Misanthropic Humanitarian at August 19, 2015 01:40 PM (OLNwX)

113
I noticed your stupid PER SE and ignored it because you were trying to use it as an all encompassing get out of debate card.

Posted by: Guy Mohawk at August 19, 2015 01:40 PM (ODxAs)

114 I'd also like to see some sort of standards issued for an H1B. Just having a piece of paper from an Indian "college" is meaningless. Create an MCAT sort of standardized test that everyone on an H1B has to take. And the test has to be done in the US at a proctored test taking location. Then the "experts" who can barely plug a computer in to the socket will be weeded out.

Posted by: HUCK / AKIN 2016 at August 19, 2015 01:40 PM (0LHZx)

115 The Trump Haters elevate their rage above the need to seriously address illegal immigration: which only Trump is doing.

Since Trump is getting ALL THE FUCKING COVERAGE, how do we know he is the only one addressing it?

Posted by: maddogg at August 19, 2015 01:41 PM (xWW96)

116 I would. The whole H1-B needs scrapped. I would prefer some sort of auction system. We allow in 5K per year for two years with no chance of citizenship. Companies can then bid for the talent.

Posted by: WOPR at August 19, 2015 01:39 PM (nRvEn)

ah.... so your rich company can then displace ITs American workers.... as long as it pays the Vig to the US Government... who was supposed to be looking out for... American Workers???

/facepalm

Posted by: BB Wolf at August 19, 2015 01:41 PM (qh617)

117 45 Poor and working class are hurt by the unskilled border jumpers, not so much the H1B college educated workers, would be the distinction that will be made once someone from his campaign decides to respond.
Posted by: brak at August 19, 2015 01:27 PM (Tj+s6)

Why don't American kids want to go into STEM courses?

First, because they're difficult, and require a lot of work that will cut into partying time. Sociology is a much better bet; my golden retriever could knock a major in sociology.

Second, because STEM is not cool, and God knows that alone is the kiss of death for American kids. WWKKD? What would Kim Kardashian do?

Third, because STEM majors often get treated like shit, and American kids know it. STEM majors have in essence built an intellectual Maginot Line by investing a lot of time, effort, and money in something that won't provide them the security and prospects they thought would accrue. (Physicians in the Obolacare era are in exactly the same boat.)

It's a more rational strategy to invest as little as possible (in time, effort, and money) into a college education, get the sheepskin, and then move and groove in the economy, qualified to do nothing but gladhand and politic your way up the hierarchy.

A case in point: Bing "Phil Daro," a BA in English from Berkeley. Comrade Daro generated the Mathematics Framework for California Public Schools in 1992 that became the standard for California K-12 and ultimately morphed into ... Common Core math. Daro became the chairman for CCSS-Math, still with only a pathetic BA in English. Apparently we couldn't find anybody with a math or science degree.

Posted by: Jay Guevara at August 19, 2015 01:41 PM (oKE6c)

118 H-1B visa abuse and his apparent current (on Tuesday) enthusiasm for H-1B's.

Abuse is the operative word.
Did he ever say that he would get rid of the H1B program?

TDS much!

Posted by: Velvet Ambition at August 19, 2015 01:42 PM (R8hU8)

119 That being said, now that Trump is the guy with the best chance of beating Hillary, we need to start lining up behind him.

We do want the person who can do the number one objective after all. Beat Hillary so we need those damned rabble rowsers to get back in line.

Posted by: Drider at August 19, 2015 01:40 PM (DNFK1)

*snort*

Okay, I don't care who you are, that's funny right there. Isn't that basically exactly what we heard with both McCain and Romney?

Posted by: AllenG (DedicatedTenther) - Not dead yet at August 19, 2015 01:42 PM (kff5f)

120 Foreign students paying full freight are a money maker for colleges.
Also usually rich kids only.

Posted by: @votermom at August 19, 2015 01:42 PM (cbfNE)

121
PING:

94 Being in favor of H1-B visas is not contradictory to being against H1-B visa abuse.
- Posted by: VA GOP Sucks at August 19, 2015 01:36 PM (PFy0L)

-- AMEN!

Posted by: _Dave_ at August 19, 2015 01:42 PM (l2dSQ)

122 *ponders AtC in the shower*

OK, I need a cigarette.

Posted by: Bandersnatch, Team Lefty and Scamp at August 19, 2015 01:43 PM (JtwS4)

123
Posted by: Drider at August 19, 2015 01:40 PM (DNFK1)
................

Hahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahah. *hic*...

Posted by: Hillary Clinton at August 19, 2015 01:43 PM (HSmrB)

124 * I think this is even BS, but I state it for the sake of argument. We are nation of 320 million people. To say we have a shortage of technical skilled people is laughable.
Posted by: Make America Great Again at August 19, 2015 01:36 PM (LXJ1e)

________

Why is it laughable? Go to any state university and see what the most popular majors are. Hint: engineering and comp sci are nowhere near the top.

Posted by: HUCK / AKIN 2016 at August 19, 2015 01:43 PM (0LHZx)

125 Beating the Dem nominee is not the #1 objective. It's necessary, but not sufficient.

Posted by: Grump928(C) at August 19, 2015 01:43 PM (rwI+c)

126

nood skull a blazin'

Posted by: artisanal 'ette at August 19, 2015 01:44 PM (qCMvj)

127 Posted by: Jay Guevara at August 19, 2015 01:41 PM (oKE6c)

I think whatever groups are out there promoting STEM need to start having folks like Dolph Lundgrin as their spokes-people.

Posted by: AllenG (DedicatedTenther) - Not dead yet at August 19, 2015 01:44 PM (kff5f)

128 Nood. Flaming Skull.

Posted by: olddog in mo at August 19, 2015 01:44 PM (K82u+)

129 Conflating H1B abuse and allowing skilled immigration is no different than when people conflate legal and illegal immigration.

You can be opposed to the H1B scam and in favor of increased legal immigration for people with certain skills.

There's nothing inconsistent about it.

Posted by: HUCK / AKIN 2016 at August 19, 2015 01:44 PM (0LHZx)

130 Why don't American kids want to go into STEM courses?

First, W , your premise is bullshit.

Kids have been lazy and have avoided work since there have been kids. Saying that Paco and his little mule and all starving third -worlder churrren just 'want it' more than their competitors ( our kids ) is a self-fulfilling prophecy. It is a liberal trope that needs to be killed.

Posted by: some random meathead at August 19, 2015 01:45 PM (HJqXj)

131 OT: Looks like Black Lives Matter activist Shaun King is a crazy evil cracker honkey who lied about being biracial in order to get an Oprah scholarship. See WZ.

-
UPDATE: King says the allegations that he is a cracker are a white supremacist conspiracy.

Posted by: The Great White Snark at August 19, 2015 01:45 PM (XUKZU)

132 "Oh, Anti-Im! It was amazing-there was a witch and a lion and a scarecrow! And a wizard! There's no place like home."

--Before Zardoz

Posted by: the guy that moves pianos for a living... at August 19, 2015 01:46 PM (tEDMc)

133 Also, many kids that were STEM majors have been utterly discouraged by the fact that the Carly Fiorinas are going to fire them and replace them with H1b s as soon as they hit a certain salary level.

Flooding a market with foreign workers is NOT letting a market work.

Posted by: some random meathead at August 19, 2015 01:48 PM (HJqXj)

134 "Okay, I don't care who you are, that's funny right there. Isn't that basically exactly what we heard with both McCain and Romney?"

It is Allen, and it is what I keep hearing about Bush so I'm going to have a whole lot of fun with it.

Posted by: Drider at August 19, 2015 01:48 PM (DNFK1)

135 The Trump Haters elevate their rage above the need to seriously address illegal immigration: which only Trump is doing.
Posted by: _Dave_ at August 19, 2015 01:40 PM (l2dSQ)

I despise the guy but can't fault him for running his campaign like he runs his businesses. That's who and what he is, and gives us a goodidea of how he would run the country should he win. That's why I oppose him.

Posted by: troyriser at August 19, 2015 01:48 PM (CAJL/)

136 *trudges to shower*

Posted by: alexthechick - Yeah I give up at August 19, 2015 01:32 PM (mf5HN)

8x10 glossy's 9.99
CD 29.99
Best of CD 39.99

Posted by: Face size Spider in AtC's closet at August 19, 2015 01:49 PM (sgrzZ)

137 Why is it laughable? Go to any state university and
see what the most popular majors are. Hint: engineering and comp sci are
nowhere near the top.

Posted by: HUCK / AKIN 2016 at August 19, 2015 01:43 PM (0LHZx)

We need to shitcan the joke majors. How many sociology/ anthropology majors do we need? How many Grievance Studies majors? A few, and none, respectively.

Cut back those departments to ca. 10% of their current size. Cut back psychology and English to 20% of their present size. Any curriculum that is consistently over-subscribed needs to be looked at, hard.

Alternatively, charge true, fully burdened costs for every major. Students pay for the power and water, building maintenance, instructors' salaries, the lot. Let industry provide subvention for those departments in which it has an interest. STEM departments already provide the operating funds for universities, through overheads on government and industrial research contracts.

Posted by: Jay Guevara at August 19, 2015 01:49 PM (oKE6c)

138
The nice thing about indentured servitude is that the work gets done. See 'Pyramids, Egyptian' and 'Israel, Children of' for further.

But hey , your lettuce and lawnmowing is cheap and Microsoft Office is affordable so fcuk those Americans.

Posted by: some random meathead at August 19, 2015 01:51 PM (HJqXj)

139 Since Trump is getting ALL THE FUCKING COVERAGE, how do we know he is the only one addressing it?
Posted by: maddogg at August 19, 2015 01:41 PM (xWW96)

-----------------------

The reason the other candidates aren't getting the coverage is because none of them have brought anything new to the table, especially with immigration.

Posted by: Soona at August 19, 2015 01:51 PM (P25Hh)

140 133 Also, many kids that were STEM majors have been utterly discouraged by the fact that the Carly Fiorinas are going to fire them and replace them with H1b s as soon as they hit a certain salary level.
Flooding a market with foreign workers is NOT letting a market work.
Posted by: some random meathead at August 19, 2015 01:48 PM (HJqXj)

Yep. Part of the problem is that business people oftentimes are not overly bright, and think that two people with the same certification are interchangeable, so why not hire the cheaper? If they were about to undergo surgery, would they rather have it performed by a newly minted M.D., or by the head of surgery at Johns Hopkins? Same certification, yes? And the former will be a hell of a lot cheaper.

Posted by: Jay Guevara at August 19, 2015 01:52 PM (oKE6c)

141 Send his ass home!

What about the rest of him?

Posted by: Blanco Basura at August 19, 2015 01:53 PM (YEelc)

142 Trump is a fraud and a charlatan. He doesn't bother to read his own policy papers.

So, fine, keep telling me how it's great that he's shaking up the GOP, consisting of frauds and charlatans.

Posted by: Hurricane LaFawnduh at August 19, 2015 01:53 PM (laMCB)

143 116 I would. The whole H1-B needs scrapped. I would prefer some sort of auction system. We allow in 5K per year for two years with no chance of citizenship. Companies can then bid for the talent.

Posted by: WOPR at August 19, 2015 01:39 PM (nRvEn)

ah.... so your rich company can then displace ITs American workers.... as long as it pays the Vig to the US Government... who was supposed to be looking out for... American Workers???

/facepalm

I don't think that is what WOPR proposed. If there is a need for some H1Bs, set the number and let companies bid from amongst that limited pool.

The number could be 0 in a given year is there is a surplus of Americans with the job credentials needed.

Also, bidding would drive UP the salaries of the H-1Bs, lowering their competitive advantage against Americans

Posted by: Weirddave at August 19, 2015 01:53 PM (WvS3w)

144 "...and become citizens."

It's not necessarily a contradiction read with the conjunction. Nonetheless, H1-B visas should suspended as should all immigration until the current crisis is brought under control.

I've decided to stop trolling, too, and vote for Donald. Who's better, really?

Posted by: My consultant says shit stinks at August 19, 2015 01:54 PM (pq97T)

145

Posted by: Weirddave

I used to say that H1b should be available only when the UE numbers hit x.

That was back before Obamastats.

Posted by: some random meathead at August 19, 2015 01:59 PM (HJqXj)

146 Send his ass home!

What about the rest of him?

Part him out to StemExpress.

Posted by: rickb223 at August 19, 2015 02:01 PM (LImvu)

147 " Since Trump is getting ALL THE FUCKING COVERAGE, how do we know he is the only one addressing it?
Posted by: maddogg at August 19, 2015 01"

Well maddogg, to help you out. Walker is saying his immigration idea is similar to Trumps and Jebs is love and amnesty albeit a confusing word will replace amnesty.

As far as the coverage there seriously may be 2 or 3 candidates that are rather worthy but lets face it, those candidates have as much chance of the nod from the powers that be in the R party as Trump does.

The rest of the candidates and even though people will disagree with me are what has been traditionally known as the 4 paragraph candidates.
Hence, the kind of Republicans who's sterling ideas will fold after the NYT writes 4 scathing paragraphs about it.
Those are the kind of people that everyone, here and elsewhere have been making a living complaining about.

Posted by: Drider at August 19, 2015 02:02 PM (DNFK1)

148 Flaming skull nood

Posted by: rickb223 at August 19, 2015 02:02 PM (LImvu)

149 temporary foreign workers ... distinguished merit and ability.

NOT

[i[ cheap alternative labor pool

This is the actual reason for the dichotomy.

But you know , TDS will cause one to find what one needs to support one's worldview.

Posted by: some random meathead at August 19, 2015 02:03 PM (HJqXj)

150 Posted by17 So Trump says that students that attend U.S. universities and get degrees in engineering, etc. shouldn't have to go back to their countries because the U.S. can use them.

Then he says that we should cut back on H1B visa so that graduates of the University of Mumbai can't take American jobs.

Posted by: jwest at August 19, 2015 01:21 PM (P/xrJ): jwest at August 19, 2015 01:21 PM (P/xrJ)

Right. I'm not seeing the problem.

Posted by: rrpjr at August 19, 2015 02:04 PM (s/yC1)

151
I used to say that H1b should be available only when the UE numbers hit x.

Below 1%

Posted by: Casino Owner at August 19, 2015 02:04 PM (cbfNE)

152 Right. I'm not seeing the problem.

Posted by: rrpjr

That's because your Trump hate-hard-on isn't big enough.

Posted by: some random meathead at August 19, 2015 02:07 PM (HJqXj)

153 He literally followed up with those tweets saying that the H1-B visa system will be made to benefit our people, not lobbyists, per his policy.

I literally explained this last night. Where's the contradiction?? He's not shutting down the entire visa program. Jesus.

Posted by: prescient11 at August 19, 2015 02:08 PM (q5APL)

154 First, because they're difficult, and require a lot of work that will
cut into partying time. Sociology is a much better bet; my golden
retriever could knock a major in sociology.

Second, because
STEM is not cool, and God knows that alone is the kiss of death for
American kids. WWKKD? What would Kim Kardashian do?

Third,
because STEM majors often get treated like shit, and American kids know
it. STEM majors have in essence built an intellectual Maginot Line by
investing a lot of time, effort, and money in something that won't
provide them the security and prospects they thought would accrue.
(Physicians in the Obolacare era are in exactly the same boat.)

There's always barber college.

Posted by: Floyd the Barber at August 19, 2015 02:09 PM (hRytD)

155 This is what I wrote about last night. He's playing chess. Apparently Ace didn't read his follow tweet.

I knew Ace would see this eventually.

Screw TRump, I want to focus on his game. He's playing chess folks and Ace and Comrade Arthur themselves fell for it today on twitter.

Trump issues Sessions' approved gold standard plan on immigration.

Today he tweets out that he is all for talented people and great college students coming to America and becoming Americans.

Some on our side say see, I told you he was going to flip flop, change his position in less than 49 hours, etc., etc., etc.

More importantly, those on the other side, like Geraldo immediately tweet him in support of his efforts and that Trump is a real great guy.

BOOOOOM, then comes the hammer. Trump tweets later that all immigrants must still comply with his policy and quotas, etc., etc. that he already set forth.

So, his position is unchanged from Sessions, but now Geraldo is on record praising him.

Trump literally got Planned Parenthood to issue a statement thanking him for being reasonable, even though his official statement IS NO DIFFERENT THAN HUCKABEE.

It's all about the delivery, motha fuckaaaas.

Posted by: prescient11 at August 19, 2015 02:11 PM (q5APL)

156 Kids have been lazy and have avoided work since
there have been kids. Saying that Paco and his little mule and all
starving third -worlder churrren just 'want it' more than their
competitors ( our kids ) is a self-fulfilling prophecy. It is a liberal
trope that needs to be killed.

Posted by: some random meathead at August 19, 2015 01:45 PM (HJqXj)

Strong in this one, the butt hurt is.

Posted by: Yoda Paco at August 19, 2015 02:12 PM (hRytD)

157 He clarified this in his VERY NEXT TWEET.

It's like fighting windmills sometime. Jesus.

Again, he's not shutting down H1-Bs, and he welcomes talented foreigners, you know, THE FUCKING POINT OF IMMIGRATION, but it's going to be done per his policy.

Posted by: prescient11 at August 19, 2015 02:16 PM (q5APL)

158 Believe me. I tech'd out and hired software developers for 10 years... C++, Java, Rails, NodeJS... there is no lack of domestic expertise. It's total bullshit. There is, however, a lack of domestic expertise that will work 25% under market rate and sign-off all rights to seek other employment.

Posted by: gzulux at August 19, 2015 02:23 PM (2pOTb)

159
prescient11 @ comment #155,

I was generally aware that Trump was strategically working his political machine in a very shrewd fashion. It's obvious that the man is highly competent.

But I have to admit that your observations are proving rather insightful in demonstrating just how brilliant Trump actually is in political maneuverings.

Posted by: _Dave_ at August 19, 2015 02:24 PM (l2dSQ)

160 Ace, you better stick to popular philosophy, since you have no idea how Real-Life works.

Green cards and citizenship tests that essentially make foreigners equal to Americans are NOT the same as H1Bs, aka visa slaves, who are connected to the company making the request and thus can't quit without being deported. It has real and bad effect on wages and unemployment of American IT workers.

H1B is outsourcing without actually moving your offices abroad. This is why Microsoft and Facebook are in such H1B frenzy.

Posted by: Juicer at August 19, 2015 02:25 PM (UAdYZ)

161 Posted by: HUCK / AKIN 2016 at August 19, 2015 01:40 PM (0LHZx)

You obviously have no clue about the uselessness of computer skills testing. There are websites out there that provide the exact questions for virtually every major test. MS has made the tests ridiculously difficult (basically asking minutely detailed questions or covering areas that are rarely used) to try and stop it but to no avail. All it has done is make normal test prep a joke and turn it into a game instead of a knowledge indicator.

Posted by: WOPR at August 19, 2015 02:30 PM (nRvEn)

162 "the need to seriously address illegal immigration: which only Trump is doing."

This is amongst the stupidest things I've read today. Yeah, nobody in the field of candidates had ever expressed a single thought about illegal immigration prior to Trump jumping in 60 days ago. He invented "seriously address[ing] illegal immigration." Nobody else ever said a word about it before him.

Do people even read the shit they type before they hit "post?"

Posted by: trumpetdaddy at August 19, 2015 02:31 PM (ljZD2)

163 Dave,

I first woke up to it when I saw how he handled Don Lemon after his "rapists" comment.

I said whoa, they just threw around rape 200 times and Trump came out looking as the one who cared about women.

It was pure fucking genius and insanely hilarious. The CNN Ticker read:

TRUMP: Somebody's Doing The Raping

You can't make this shit up!!

Posted by: prescient11 at August 19, 2015 02:31 PM (q5APL)

164 ah.... so your rich company can then displace ITs American workers.... as long as it pays the Vig to the US Government... who was supposed to be looking out for... American Workers???

/facepalm
Posted by: BB Wolf at August 19, 2015 01:41 PM (qh617)

Do you think a company is going to bid $20K for a low skilled worker? My point is to make the number of H1B's or equivalent small enough that you can't flood the market and to also use the auction process to force companies to actually look for good talent. Let's say I amend my statement to be that bidding has to start at the prevailing wage of the position or something along those lines.

Posted by: WOPR at August 19, 2015 02:33 PM (nRvEn)

165

Again, Trump is the only candidate who has clearly and with unambiguous detail staked out a strong policy to address Illegal Immigration.

Conservatives need to wake up and realize that the issue of Illegal Immigration is a DESPERATELY vital one.
If we fail at this juncture - and the Pro-Illegal Immigration faction shuts this debate down - we can kiss any hope of salvaging the country goodbye.
- Because the Democrats will soon enough achieve a PERMANENT MAJORITY through Illegal Immigration.

Trump may only be right-of-center (he's not a conservative): but he's the only Republican candidate with a seriously strong and conservative position on Illegal Immigration.

WAKE. THE. FUCK. UP.

Posted by: _Dave_ at August 19, 2015 02:33 PM (l2dSQ)

166 Trump got his favorable H1B visa position from Cruz and the American Enterprise Institute. He got his unfavorable, without nuance, position on the street.

Posted by: Cruzinator at August 19, 2015 02:34 PM (cJswI)

167 Posted by: _Dave_ at August 19, 2015 02:33 PM (l2dSQ)

Wait until you get a load of his path to legalization that he will eventually spring on you.

Posted by: Cruzinator at August 19, 2015 02:36 PM (cJswI)

168 #51 #48 is that why Disney made its fired IT workers train the 'skilled' H1B workers replacing them?

Posted by: richard mcenroe at August 19, 2015 02:37 PM (Kucy5)

169 "Again, Trump is the only candidate who has clearly and with unambiguous
detail staked out a strong policy to address Illegal Immigration."

This is a categorically false statement. At least three of the others have done so, and prior to last week, Scott Walker's was far-and-away the strongest position, far more so than the Republican party platform has been, ever.

Amongst other plentiful reasons to dislike Trump and his supporters is the constant insistence that Trump, and only Trump, has any kind of serious proposals on the table about issues. These are the exact same straw-man bullshit tactics that Obama uses. Rather than discuss the many plans out there from the various candidates like fucking adults, Trump (and Obama before him) simply pretend that the only plan is his. And his supporters go right along like lemmings.

Posted by: trumpetdaddy at August 19, 2015 02:39 PM (ljZD2)

170
Cruzinator,

I too am a Ted Cruz supporter. If Cruz's number rise to the point of being in striking range of being a threat to Trump: I'll cheer that on.

In the meantime, Trump is the only serious champion regarding Illegal Immigration.
- Cruz is akin to Trump on Illegal Immigration. But Cruz has yet to issue an unambiguous policy paper.
Trump is leader on this issue.

Posted by: _Dave_ at August 19, 2015 02:39 PM (l2dSQ)

171 Yeah, I believe everything CNN and Michelle Malkin tell me. Uh huh. I sure do.

I don't see the NEWS FLASH!!11!! incredible contradiction here but hey, that's just me....

TDSers gotta TDS.

Posted by: MrScribbler at August 19, 2015 02:39 PM (0atQl)

172 I am a big Trump support but Ace is correct. Trump really has to tighten up what he thinks on issues and know why he thinks it.

I don't want him to go all "political pablum posturing" about it but he needs to understand who is supporting him and why we are supporting him.

Since he is new at this (part of the reason we like him) he gets a pass and because right now there is nobody and I do mean nobody else who can do what he's done so far and my number one issue by far is illegal immigration. We don't have a country right now because of it. We really don't. There is no doubt that great numbers of them are actually voting. Look at Acorn. Look at California, the one party state. Look at the electoral college and Ohio. I read somewhere that if the demographics of electorate had been the same for Romney as it was for Reagan he would have won in a landslide.

Some people don't realize that even if they these illegals don't vote in elections, they still have changed this country massively. Look at advertising, television programming propaganda. Look at politicians and government soliciting and serving illegals. Etc.

My second major issue is the lawlessness that pervades every single government branch and agency. Starting with Obama/Clinton/IRS/ Lerner. Again we don't have a country with this lawlessness. I'd like to see him address that too.

I cringed several times when reading that "Hollywood Reporter" article. When his NYC liberal side rears its ugly head. And I get the feeling that his liberal friends and associates are good at sucking up and influencing him.

For example, the gay marriage issue. He says the Supreme Court has ruled on it. I'm getting a "let it go" vibe. Now I know he's not an ideologue and could be considered a moderate Republican or a conservative Democrat on social issues but I'm disturbed that he doesn't seem to understand the problems with legislating from the bench, judicial fiat. There is no reason homosexuals have now been given superior rights. He doesn't seem to understand the issues involving religious freedoms, the Gaystapo and the persecution of Christian bakers.

So Trump is no way perfect. I have to prioritize here. But he does need to mentally shape up. It's early but he better get going on understanding the big picture and who his supporters are and what they want.

Posted by: Misfortune & Pestilence at August 19, 2015 02:40 PM (FlNz4)

173

Cruzinator,
It is possible that any politician, (Cruz included) could win the presidency and then dump an ugly policy on us conservatives.
It's possible.

But on the issue of Illegal Immigration, it's very unlikely that Trump will reverse course. He's too committed. He'd go down as one of the lamest one term presidents of all time. - And he'd KNOW that. He's not a fool.
Trump won't be reliable on much else. (But again, he'll be right-of-center - and much more so than Bush.)
But on Illegal Immigration, there is currently excellent reason to believe that Trump will be the most reliable.

Posted by: _Dave_ at August 19, 2015 02:43 PM (l2dSQ)

174 Misfortune:

Oh, he understands. At least on immigration. Which is all that matters in this election.

Even if we get some kind of goofy legalization, we'll still get a big, beautiful wall, HE WILL NEVER BACK DOWN FROM THAT PROMISE, which will be a yuuuuuuggggee protection on our southern border.

For that alone, he's got my support and I'm a cruz guy.

Cruz isn't stupid. He will not win the general and the GOPe will never let him win the primary.

Posted by: prescient11 at August 19, 2015 02:49 PM (q5APL)

175

trumpetdaddy @ comment # 169,

With all due respect, Trump is the ONLY candidate that has spelled his very strong position out in a policy paper.
The other candidate are playing it safer.

This is fact. This is reality.

Trump is the clear and way out in front leader on the issue of Illegal Immigration.
Ace pointed this out yesterday.

There is no reason to hate Trump for being THE LEADER on this vitally important issue of stopping Illegal Immigration.

And there is no reason to hate us Trump Supporters for observing and cheering on Trump's leadership on this issue.

Posted by: _Dave_ at August 19, 2015 02:50 PM (l2dSQ)

176 This is amongst the stupidest things I've read today. Yeah, nobody in the field of candidates had ever expressed a single thought about illegal immigration prior to Trump jumping in 60 days ago. He invented "seriously address[ing] illegal immigration." Nobody else ever said a word about it before him.

Do people even read the shit they type before they hit "post?"
Posted by: trumpetdaddy at August 19, 2015 02:31 PM (ljZD2)

Sure, fuckface, we've all heard John Al-Nusra McAmnesty shout "Build the damn fence!" in his idiotic infomercial dedicated to IQ deprived establishment shills like yourself.

We just didn't believe him.

Your political class revels in it's grotesque lies, obscenely inviting us to suck it's collective bulge once their ubermenschen are elected, rinsing and repeating.

There is no doubt, whatsoever, that not a single candidate gives a rat's arse about closing the border or deportation. The better ones (Cruz, Walker) half-assingly lie about being enthusiastic about illegals, though secretly hoping the issue never comes up. The other ones (Bush, Rubio, Kasich) are being a bit more straightforward in wanting amnesty, rejecting a viable fence and opposing any type and form of deportation.

Not a single one of them is willing to make hard and "divisive" decisions to end the current catastrophe. If you think otherwise, you are even more braindead than your favorite artist, Rosie O'Donnell.

Posted by: Juicer at August 19, 2015 02:52 PM (UAdYZ)

177 HUCK/AKIN - RE why it's laughable that a nation of 320 million cannot supply it's STEM needs

The workforce need for STEM is 277,000 a year. America has 350,000 STEM graduates a year.

Posted by: Make America Great Again at August 19, 2015 02:55 PM (LXJ1e)

178

This is amongst the stupidest things I've read today.
posted by trumpetdaddy

Now there's a man with a Trump-hate hard-on.

Stroke that boner, boy!

Posted by: some random meathead at August 19, 2015 02:56 PM (HJqXj)

179
Just to clarify my last comment.

Yesterday, Ace pointed out that Trump's position on Illegal Immigration is as restrictionist as it gets. - There is none more so.

And yes, it's a fact: Trump is the only candidate to lay out his policy on Illegal Immigration (which, again, is the most restrictionist) in detailed and unambiguous writing.
- NO OTHER CANDIDATE HAS DONE THIS. __NONE__.

So, yes, Trump is the obvious leader on Illegal Immigration.

Posted by: _Dave_ at August 19, 2015 02:56 PM (l2dSQ)

180 My second major issue is the lawlessness that pervades every single government branch and agency. Starting with Obama/Clinton/IRS/ Lerner. Again we don't have a country with this lawlessness. I'd like to see him address that too

------------------

My hope is that he made a deal with Cruz to be the Attorney General for a no holds bar assault on government corruption.

I really do think Trump is as pissed as the 25% that are supporting him right now.

Posted by: Make America Great Again at August 19, 2015 02:59 PM (LXJ1e)

181 Yeah, nobody in the field of candidates had ever expressed a single
thought about illegal immigration prior to Trump jumping in 60 days ago.

Carly 'H1B' Fiorina certainly made her opinion known at HP.

Posted by: some random meathead at August 19, 2015 03:01 PM (HJqXj)

182 "Oh, he understands. At least on immigration. Which is all that matters in this election."

I know. It is THE issue. The power the Democrats/leftists have is because of the influence of the massive numbers of illegals here.

He still has my support. I see him as a heavy anchor that's at will at least right the ship, as we are almost on our side. Getting the ship right side up is the first step. I think he is the only anchor strong enough to do it.

Once the massive numbers of illegals are gone we can get back to the legitimate electorate restoring the America as we all knew it. I think many things will sort themselves out then. All the social issues will start to go our way since all the illegal opposition will be off the field and the left becomes the fringe again. The demographics of the legitimate electorate will be much more powerful.

In the meantime, he really needs to not even give the appearance of going wobbly at all on the immigration issue. Just tighten it up and keep it tightened. Of course, he has to mean it too.

We know he will plummet if he goes soft. We are serious about this issue. It's his main draw. His second is his fearlessness in dealing with the media/political/complex and not caving in or apologizing.

Posted by: Misfortune & Pestilence at August 19, 2015 03:03 PM (FlNz4)

183
Pinging out to comment #180,

I was hoping that he'd tap Cruz for Sec of State. - Helping to groom him for the presidency later on.

But AG Cruz would be an excellent choice too.

Posted by: _Dave_ at August 19, 2015 03:04 PM (l2dSQ)

184 There is a good article on the fake STEM crisis on the Fiscal Times website.

Click on my name for the article.

Posted by: Make America Great Again at August 19, 2015 03:04 PM (LXJ1e)

185 Trumpobsessedpiglet: we don't buy your "positions" bullsperm. It's not very brave to take this or that position, it costs nothing. Positions mean less than squat when coming from politicians.

My position is that all sidewalks should be painted in purple. It IS my position, but that doesn't mean that if I'm suddenly made a Dictator of the World, I'd make painting sidewalks a priority. I may not paint a single sidewalk. It's just a position, not a commitment or obligation.

A position believable only when a candidate is passionate about it. I believed Obama will impose socialized healthcare before he got elected, because he was passionate about it. I do not believe any of non-Trump candidates will act upon their positions, except for Jeb and Rubio who will push Amnesty so extensive it would make Mexico City a barren desert.

Posted by: Juicer at August 19, 2015 03:04 PM (UAdYZ)

186 Just a bunch of made up anti-Trump nonsense again. Like the Wall Street Journal the other day calling Trump "anti-immigrant" because he wants to deport illegal immigrants. GOPe rhetoric is all. Trump has been pretty clear to me all along: He wants illegals out of the country, he wants to make it so people can't come into the country illegally. He wants to test the anchor baby rules hoping to get rid of them. He wants to reduce the uneducated immigrant workforce if it would bring more jobs to US citizens and he would like to bring into the country more of the worthy immigrants.

What's not to understand about that and what's not to like about that?

Answer: Because it makes Trump look good and that is bad for the GOPe, we cannot like it and will have to tell people it's all a contradiction, then tell people we can't trust him, then tell people we need to find the most electable candidate, then tell people we endorse Jeb!

Posted by: doug at August 19, 2015 03:07 PM (IYEs/)

187
For the Trump Haters,

Here is another fact to ponder.
Who are the left-wing media and mainstream media attacking on his Illegal Immigration stance?

TRUMP.

And that's because Trump's Anti-Illegal Immigration policy has been the strongest and most committed of all the candidates.

Trump is the candidate the left finds most frightening on the issue of Illegal Immigration.

As the Maha-Rushie always says: if we listen carefully, the left will tell us who they fear most.

Posted by: _Dave_ at August 19, 2015 03:11 PM (l2dSQ)

188
Amen doug @ comment # 186!

Posted by: _Dave_ at August 19, 2015 03:12 PM (l2dSQ)

189 Actually, Ace, the two aren't incompatible at all. The reason companies like H1b is that they are required to pay them a percentage of a "prevailing wage" that the companies themselves compute, and then set up skill categories they define.

Think of it as the business equivalent of the proposed Iranian inspections regime. One way to fix it is to have "prevailing wage" defined by what the employer paid in the employer's share of Social Security for the employees who held that position at that company for the last 5 years. That way we could get at least a closer idea of what companies think those employees are worth.

The devil is in the details.

Posted by: SDN at August 19, 2015 03:45 PM (p/ktF)

190 H1-B is a form of indentured servitude. Unfortunately, the alternative is off-shoring the jobs. Ain't STEM great.

Posted by: Bob at August 19, 2015 04:13 PM (fVGlW)

191 The consistency I have seen from Trump is that he is open to immigration by people who contribute to the productivity of the nation. I imagine a household (husband and wife) working in STEM fields may be more productive than a household from Central America working in onion fields.

Objectively speaking, one household may be net benefit, while the other may be a net drain.

Posted by: Guy Fawkes at August 19, 2015 04:19 PM (zpZLP)

192 "Now, in fairness, Trump did not call for an end to H-1Bs, as no one would, anywhere;"

I would. I do. H-1Bs are indentured servitude. Trump is correct. It makes sense to allow foreign students who have received massively subsidizes technical degrees in the US to remain in the US, as green cards, so that the US economy may reap the rewards of those subsidies. This does not mean that US corporations should be granted the right to enslave them.

Posted by: Jerome at August 19, 2015 04:39 PM (Opcdk)

193 I would. I do. H-1Bs are indentured servitude. Trump is correct. It makes sense to allow foreign students who have received massively subsidizes technical degrees in the US to remain in the US, as green cards, so that the US economy may reap the rewards of those subsidies. This does not mean that US corporations should be granted the right to enslave them.
Posted by: Jerome at August 19, 2015 04:39 PM (Opcdk)

Most importantly, H1Bs allow for much cheaper workforce, whereas green cards do not.

Corporations want cheap workforce, it's how it is and always will be. Microsoft, Google and Facebook lobbyists have 100% of all Congress critters in their pockets. Trump is the only one who can send a low-pitched FU to lobbyists.

Posted by: Juicer at August 19, 2015 05:00 PM (UAdYZ)

194 Yes, yes it is all from Trump's gut at any particular moment. I'm glad you seem to be finally catching on to that. Why any sane person would give Trump a second look is beyond me.

We're supposed to be the party of contemplation and logic, but we have the egotastic blowhard as the current favorite to be our nominee. For shame.

Posted by: JoeC at August 19, 2015 06:33 PM (PZWsW)

195 Whooo

Hey people!!
Can I get a Trump???

Just watched my man's town hall and he owned it! Like a boss!
6 pages of notes later and I am ready to Out-Trump.Trump!

Uh 1. Uh 2 uh 3 Fo....

*badass Scorpions guitar riff*

Here I am
Trump you like a hurricane!

AREYOUBLABBYBLAHBLAH

Here I am
Trump you like a hurricane!

AwhOooooOoooo

*shakes ass in leather pants*

Posted by: Scott 'Trump' Walker at August 19, 2015 08:30 PM (HJqXj)

196 Rick Perry always has a consistent message and he wasn't a silly reality star

PERRY/RUBIO 2016
acceptable conservatism that wont embarrass me in front of my liberal friends

Posted by: schmitt at August 19, 2015 11:07 PM (jOxVV)

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