Virgin Galactic Pilot's Long Fall

This is a fun little story. It recaps Peter Siebold's testimony about the destruction of Virgin Galactic's SpaceShipTwo and his fall to earth.

Here's a taste:

Then there was a single bang, he said in the interview. The cabin rapidly depressurized and he felt the air leave his lungs.
Suddenly he heard a high-pitched whistle of the wind and he realized he was in "a very high slipstream of some kind."
He had to work to open his eyes, he said. And when he opened them, he saw the desert below.
His helmet was not straight on his head and his oxygen mask had shifted.
Siebold said he believes he was still sitting in his seat. It was extremely cold. He reached for his seatbelt.

And he falls and falls. The other pilot, Michael Alsbury, did not survive.

***

Oh, and while we're talking about space travel, scientists are saying that a reactionless thrust device called the EM Drive might actually work. A very big deal, if true. Although, it seems to me that even its proponents are treating it like magic. They literally don't know why thrust is occurring and so can't really explain why the drive isn't breaking the law of conservation of momentum.

Posted by: Gabriel Malor at 04:02 PM

Comments

(Jump to bottom of comments)

1 The EnGabening continues.

Posted by: tsj017 at July 28, 2015 04:01 PM (4YUWF)

2
Falling and falling. Does every post have to be about Hillary?

Posted by: Guy Mohawk at July 28, 2015 04:02 PM (ODxAs)

3 This is, for all intents and purposes, the story of Obama.

Posted by: Chi at July 28, 2015 04:02 PM (DeRoy)

4 Is Ace okay???

Posted by: prescient11 at July 28, 2015 04:03 PM (q5APL)

5 The thing to me about the EM drive... why build it if you can't imagine why it would work? Must be something going on that was suspected even if you can't pin it down. Fold into the general model... maybe not... but there's gotta be some "there there" to work with and manipulate

Posted by: Former Mass Resident at July 28, 2015 04:05 PM (/lYhj)

6 The Man who Fell to Earth, Peter Siebold. The terror, the hammering of his heart as the cold sky tried to kill him, and him wanting to live.

https://youtu.be/P9jCCN1e64M

Posted by: Anna Puma at July 28, 2015 04:06 PM (7Eo8i)

7 In the first top 10 at least. I hope.

Posted by: Caitlyn Jenner at July 28, 2015 04:06 PM (E5UB0)

8 Corgis called.

Posted by: rickb223 at July 28, 2015 04:07 PM (jTo7g)

9 Ace is on Fire...

Island.

Posted by: Garrett at July 28, 2015 04:07 PM (fOO+i)

10 >>> Is Ace okay???

My theory: ace is posting from a computer in Gabe's house, but forgot to relog in as himself.

Posted by: Caitlyn Jenner at July 28, 2015 04:07 PM (E5UB0)

11 The Man who Fell to Earth, Peter Siebold.
The terror, the hammering of his heart as the cold sky tried to kill him, and him wanting to live.

Outside really is trying to kill you.

Posted by: rickb223 at July 28, 2015 04:07 PM (jTo7g)

12 This is a fun little story.

Maybe not the adjective I'd use.

Posted by: HR braucht ein Bier at July 28, 2015 04:08 PM (/kI1Q)

13 5 The thing to me about the EM drive... why build it if you can't imagine why it would work?

--

Alien tech!!!!

Posted by: @votermom at July 28, 2015 04:08 PM (cbfNE)

14 Wo ist ~~Steiner~~ ace?

Posted by: joncelli, Boned like You at July 28, 2015 04:08 PM (RD7QR)

15 Gabe, thanks for covering for Ace.

Posted by: @votermom at July 28, 2015 04:08 PM (cbfNE)

16 So the EM drive can get astronauts to the moon in four hours. So it's no worse than DC rush hour.

Posted by: wrg500 at July 28, 2015 04:08 PM (S+el1)

17 fun?

Posted by: brak at July 28, 2015 04:08 PM (Tj+s6)

18 What a great story.

Posted by: m at July 28, 2015 04:09 PM (ew6hg)

19 and he felt the air leave his lungs.

Ummmmmm. What?

No, no, no, no, no, I get what he's saying and I understand vacuums and what they do to your lungs (icky icky icky things), but still.

Let us take a moment to ponder the ridiculous courage it takes to do what it takes to move mankind forward in these realms.

Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

There's a great line in Leviathan Wakes (I think, maybe it's in the second book), where the guy who is the mechanic on the spaceship is all dude I am just a mechanic and one of the other characters replies that no, he's a literal rocket scientist and that 200 years ago people on Earth would have given him anything he wanted, up to and including their children, to learn what it is that he knows.

Posted by: alexthechick - Oh please intervene SMOD at July 28, 2015 04:09 PM (mf5HN)

20 From the front page side bar:
Can get to Mars in 70 days.
(read: causes for concern)

Maybe because they haven't figured out how to stop??

Posted by: rickb223 at July 28, 2015 04:09 PM (jTo7g)

21
What a great story.

Except not so much for the other guy.

Posted by: Bandersnatch at July 28, 2015 04:09 PM (JtwS4)

22 They have to assume the EM Drive isn't violating conservation of momentum - so explaining it is a lot more fun.

I am very surprised the drive isn't because of copper vaporizing off of the side of the containment unit. It seems they eliminated that.

The real big problem is the thrust is close to the predicted amount -which assumes conservation of momentum is violated.

So, yeah. Mumbo gone the banana patch.

Posted by: Inspector Cussword at July 28, 2015 04:09 PM (LlQKJ)

23 willowed again

Posted by: Sean Bannion at July 28, 2015 04:10 PM (V+kmg)

24 Yeah, this Siebold guy is pretty brave, but I'll bet he would never dress up as a demented parody of a woman and pose for Vanity Fair.

Posted by: Cicero (@cicero) at July 28, 2015 04:10 PM (8ZskC)

25 This is a fun little story. It recaps Peter Siebold's testimony about the destruction of Virgin Galactic's SpaceShipTwo..
-------------------

Didn't Chuck Yeager star in the original story?

Posted by: Mike Hammer, etc., etc. at July 28, 2015 04:10 PM (9mTYi)

26 Haven't we debunked the EM/Cannae Drive already in a previous post here?

Well here is Wiki calling the reported data as spurious or errors.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RF_resonant_cavity_thruster

Posted by: Anna Puma at July 28, 2015 04:10 PM (7Eo8i)

27 >>>> reactionless thrust

*ooh*

Posted by: Necrophiliac at July 28, 2015 04:11 PM (3ZtZW)

28 Did someone call for a resonant cavity?

Posted by: Sandra Fluke at July 28, 2015 04:11 PM (ZtFr+)

29 Say, why weren't there any ghey spacemen on that rocket ship?

Posted by: An SJW at July 28, 2015 04:11 PM (8ZskC)

30 It's pretty obvious that Ace is hopelessly lost.

He's cold, wet, alone and afraid.

Hiding somewhere under a bridge, probably being molested by random hobos and crying because the people who read his blog have abandoned him.

If you had actually loved him, he would still be here, wouldn't he?

Yes, it's all your fault.

But let's put that unpleasantness behind us. If you want to sleep tonight without all the guilt, here is what to do.

All it takes to help Ace is a small donation of $29.95 or more to a foundation established to rescue elitist writers who have lost their way.

Won't you help too?

Please send your tax deductible gift to:

The Ace Foundation
C/O jwest
44925 Collections Drive
Chicago, Il 60606

Posted by: jwest at July 28, 2015 04:12 PM (P/xrJ)

31 reactionless thrust

So you've met my wife.

Posted by: wrg500 at July 28, 2015 04:12 PM (S+el1)

32 reactionless thrust

*ooh*
Posted by: Necrophiliac

Isn't that what you get now?

Posted by: rickb223 at July 28, 2015 04:12 PM (jTo7g)

33 Let me know when they test that drive in a vacuum and it still work.

Posted by: Buzzion at July 28, 2015 04:12 PM (z/Ubi)

34 The "EM" seems to stand for Enigma & Mystery?

Jim
Sunk New Dawn
Galveston, TX

Posted by: Jim at July 28, 2015 04:12 PM (RzZOc)

35 A 10-mile drop?

Wow.

Posted by: Lizzy at July 28, 2015 04:12 PM (NOIQH)

36 Funny how falling feels like flying .

For a little while.

( awesome lyric from a Crazy Heart song)

Posted by: Cruzinator at July 28, 2015 04:12 PM (KkliO)

37 I only fly 'em. I don't know what makes 'em work.

Posted by: Oddball at July 28, 2015 04:12 PM (JO9+V)

38 "They literally don't know why thrust is occurring "

hehe

Posted by: Beavis at July 28, 2015 04:13 PM (so+oy)

39 O.k., the last time we got a post from Ace was July 24, 2015 05:26 PM.
What did we do?

Posted by: m at July 28, 2015 04:13 PM (ew6hg)

40 Reactionless drives are bunk until solid proof otherwise. The last reports I read had effects that were extremely tiny. Easily an error in measuring.

Posted by: HoboJerk, TPHSATAR at July 28, 2015 04:13 PM (FA3Z7)

41 Whats Ion propulsion? That's a real thing right?

Posted by: Cruzinator at July 28, 2015 04:13 PM (KkliO)

42 http://nextbigfuture.com/2015/05/emdrive-possible-warp-or-hyperspace.html

Posted by: HoboJerk, TPHSATAR at July 28, 2015 04:14 PM (FA3Z7)

43 Ace is posting.

He's posting from inside your home!!!

Get out!

Get out now!!!

Posted by: When an Ewok Calls at July 28, 2015 04:14 PM (0cMkb)

44 A 10-mile drop?
Wow.

It's not the fall that gets you.
It's that sudden stop.

Posted by: rickb223 at July 28, 2015 04:14 PM (jTo7g)

45 So this means, if I hook up a solar cell to my microwave, I could take it for a test drive to the moon?

Dude, I'm totally sold.

Posted by: Feh at July 28, 2015 04:14 PM (snZ6y)

46 "The Ridley/Yeager USAF team achieved Mach 2.44 on December 12, 1953. Shortly after reaching Mach 2.44, Yeager experienced a loss of aerodynamic control of the X-1A due to inertia coupling at approximately 80,000 ft (24,000 m). With the aircraft simultaneously rolling, pitching, and yawing out of the sky, Yeager dropped 51,000 feet (16,000 m) in 51 seconds before regaining control of the aircraft at approximately 29,000 feet (8,800 m)."

Well..., that was 62 years ago..., so not really germane.

Posted by: Mike Hammer, etc., etc. at July 28, 2015 04:15 PM (9mTYi)

47 >>>> reactionless thrust

This is why you wife needs the Paolo.

Posted by: Paolo at July 28, 2015 04:15 PM (fOO+i)

48 I TOLD you guys, Ace went into Tosche Station to pick up some power converters!

I guess it wasn't funny the first time, either, sorry, I blame my white privilege.

Posted by: Gouverneur Morris at July 28, 2015 04:15 PM (02oLK)

49 If Siebold had an EM drive, he could've stopped himself two feet above the ground like Bugs Bunny.

Posted by: Feh at July 28, 2015 04:15 PM (snZ6y)

50 The spaceship went down on him.

Posted by: Bertram Cabot Jr. at July 28, 2015 04:16 PM (W5DcG)

51 >>It's not the fall that gets you.
It's that sudden stop.

And that's a long time to anticipate the splat---er, stop.

Posted by: Lizzy at July 28, 2015 04:16 PM (NOIQH)

52 Well..., that was 62 years ago..., so not really germane.

What'd we do to the krauts 62 years ago?

Posted by: rickb223 at July 28, 2015 04:16 PM (jTo7g)

53 Reactionless drives are bunk until solid proof otherwise. The last reports I read had effects that were extremely tiny. Easily an error in measuring.
Posted by: HoboJerk,
---------------------

Next, you will tell us that there is no such thing as cold fusion.

Posted by: Pons, et al at July 28, 2015 04:16 PM (9mTYi)

54 No, EM drive doesn't work. Mach drives might work.

Posted by: TallDave at July 28, 2015 04:16 PM (/s1LA)

55 Heeeeeere am I sitting in my tin can...oh, shit

Posted by: Major Tom at July 28, 2015 04:17 PM (Dwehj)

56 "Our measurements reveal thrusts as expected from previous claims after
carefully studying thermal and electromagnetic interferences."

About the EM Drive:
It sounds like the effects are so incredibly small they can be swamped by errors ... introduced by thermal and electromagnetic interferences? Or outgassing, even...

Very interesting if conservation of momentum is actually violated.

Posted by: fb at July 28, 2015 04:17 PM (wjd4o)

57 Last tweet from Ace was a RT on Sunday...

Posted by: Brother Cavil, down with Eph 6:12-13 at July 28, 2015 04:17 PM (2l5vw)

58 Are we sure Ace just didn't ban himself again?

Posted by: Buzzsaw at July 28, 2015 04:17 PM (81UWZ)

59 The spaceship went down on him.

While he was singing, "Fly me to the moon".

Posted by: rickb223 at July 28, 2015 04:18 PM (jTo7g)

60 Big problem is this last paper was a guy who normally looks for experimental errors and oversights. Finds things that explain anomalous readings such as misaligned crystals in identical sensors, crosstalk over un-shielded cables, timing differences that don't take in to account certain interference from the Earth rotating, stuff like that.

So he was called in to explain the wacky measurements and debunk. It turns out he confirmed the measurements and eliminated a host of possible errors - and the thrust measurements are in line with predicted - and that does not make sense unless we have stumbled into some sort of tabletop handmade Casimir Effect. In a copper box. That anyone can make.

Posted by: Inspector Cussword at July 28, 2015 04:18 PM (LlQKJ)

61 Has there been some kind of bloodless coup at AceCorp? I am so confused. Must be something to do with reactionless thrust.

Posted by: Peaches at July 28, 2015 04:18 PM (EgOr3)

62 Reactionless drives are bunk until solid proof otherwise. The last reports I read had effects that were extremely tiny. Easily an error in measuring.
Posted by: HoboJerk,
-----------------

Peon. Next, I suppose, you will deny that there are arsenic-eating bacteria.

Leave the sciencey stuff to your betters.

Posted by: NASA at July 28, 2015 04:18 PM (9mTYi)

63 Next, you will tell us that there is no such thing as cold fusion.
Posted by: Pons, et al at July 28, 2015 04:16 PM (9mTYi)

Or blue dog Democrats. Or Republican leadership.

Posted by: Gouverneur Morris at July 28, 2015 04:18 PM (02oLK)

64 About the EM Drive:
It sounds like the effects are so incredibly
small they can be swamped by errors ... introduced by thermal and
electromagnetic interferences? Or outgassing, even...

Sorry.

Posted by: Pumba at July 28, 2015 04:18 PM (JO9+V)

65 Just no.

http://www.wired.com/2015/07/really-propellantless-space-drives-still-not-thing/

Posted by: TallDave at July 28, 2015 04:18 PM (/s1LA)

66 I saw on TV that you can re-enter the Earth's atmosphere and land on a beach safely if you're in the belly of a shark. Provided that you can then chainsaw you're way out of it.

Posted by: TheQuietMan at July 28, 2015 04:19 PM (493sH)

67 About the EM Drive:
It sounds like the effects are so incredibly small they can be swamped by errors ... introduced by thermal and electromagnetic interferences?

Or outgassing, even...

Sorry. Bad Chipotle.

Posted by: rickb223 at July 28, 2015 04:19 PM (jTo7g)

68 I don't see why the EM Drive necessarily violates the "conservation of momentum."

Whatever power source is used to make it go, that power's momentum was removed from its previous environment and placed into the drive.

The only reason an observer might think the drive was violating the conservation of momentum is that their frame of reference is too small.

One formulation of the law is:

"In a closed system (one that does not exchange any matter with its surroundings and is not acted on by external forces) the total momentum is constant."

The key is in the first four words.

Debunk-attempters try to conceptually isolate the drive as a self-contained "closed system," but if they just took a few steps back, they could see that the drive is not really a closed system -- it has inputs from the larger universe at its inception.

One could similarly wind up a rubber band to propel a toy plane, THEN, place the plane in a sealed chamber and claim that the plane could not go forward because of the law of Conservation of Momentum.

But you see the system isn't really closed. The plane would go forward because of conditions at the start.

The law may ultimately only apply to the universe as a whole, since that is the only truly closed system.

Posted by: zombie at July 28, 2015 04:19 PM (jBuUi)

69 "He's cold, wet, alone and afraid.

Hiding somewhere under a bridge, probably being molested by random hobos"

To think that for so many years, hobos trembled to hear about the Night of the Ewok.

Posted by: BourbonChicken at July 28, 2015 04:19 PM (+4uXG)

70 6 The Man who Fell to Earth,

And then couldn't get gay married because of the racists in the Tea Party. [/gabecontext]

Posted by: wooga at July 28, 2015 04:19 PM (zHvpi)

71 All of us down at the Brattleboro Women's Reproductive Health Choice
Clinic are to bring more important news then this crap opn line. Presdent Obama's Staff has just named the Brattleboro the most friendly and supportive trown of Presdent Obalam in the country. we are proud of our citizens receiving this prestegious award. What has your town done to support our Presdent of Colo0r and Peoples of Color ???

Posted by: Mary Clogginstien from Brattleboro, VT at July 28, 2015 04:19 PM (lNSdJ)

72 Has there been some kind of bloodless coup at AceCorp?

It will go down in infamy as the Hamster Putsch.

Posted by: Major Tom at July 28, 2015 04:20 PM (Dwehj)

73 I'd love it if the EM Drive was a real thing.

It would change everything - regarding travel within our solar system.

Still, this seems like the sort of dealio which could be easily tested for $2-3K and a ride into space.

A small vehicle aimed at the moon with a tracking signal.

Well, okay the gov't's involved so $2-3M. Still that's pocket change compared to the trillions Oblabla's wasting.

Posted by: naturalfake at July 28, 2015 04:20 PM (0cMkb)

74 /sock

Posted by: Bigby's Reacharound at July 28, 2015 04:21 PM (3ZtZW)

75 I canna change th' laws o' physics, Captain!

Posted by: Scotty at July 28, 2015 04:21 PM (6eVVe)

76 Seven Days in...July?

Posted by: Gouverneur Morris at July 28, 2015 04:21 PM (02oLK)

77 I choose to believe Ace has secretly unearthed FDR's hidden gold and is blowing it in Vegas.

#acelives

Yes, I feel a little dirty about myself for using a hashtag outside of Twitter. I must go cleanse myself with Valu-Rite.

Posted by: Austin in TX at July 28, 2015 04:21 PM (3cp3C)

78 >>"He's cold, wet, alone and afraid...."

"Naked and Afraid" contestant?

Stay hydrated, Ace!!

Posted by: Lizzy at July 28, 2015 04:21 PM (NOIQH)

79 But Scotty, are you giving her all she's got?

Posted by: Gouverneur Morris at July 28, 2015 04:21 PM (02oLK)

80 The Man who Fell to Earth,

And then couldn't get gay married because of the racists in the Tea Party.

Today he can marry the scout troop.

Posted by: Bertram Cabot Jr. at July 28, 2015 04:21 PM (W5DcG)

81 AlextheChick, perhaps the writer was trying to explain at a 5th grade level, the avg reading comprehension of the modern New York Times readers, what Siebold was going through.

Posted by: Anna Puma at July 28, 2015 04:22 PM (7Eo8i)

82 "He's cold, wet, alone and afraid."
Well, he'd better be afraid, because I'm gonna tan his hide when he shows up here.

Posted by: m at July 28, 2015 04:22 PM (ew6hg)

83 How many calories are in a microNewton?

Posted by: Cicero (@cicero) at July 28, 2015 04:22 PM (8ZskC)

84 But Scotty, are you giving her all she's got?

No, that job would be for the Paulo.

Posted by: Paulo at July 28, 2015 04:22 PM (02oLK)

85 Ion cannon ... fire!

Posted by: Toryn Farr at July 28, 2015 04:22 PM (evdj2)

86 Moar dilithium crystals.

Posted by: Major Tom at July 28, 2015 04:23 PM (Dwehj)

87 How many calories are in a microNewton?

Is that like those new OreoThins?
Probably a lot.

Posted by: rickb223 at July 28, 2015 04:24 PM (jTo7g)

88 "To think that for so many years, hobos trembled to hear about the Night of the Ewok."

Posted by: BourbonChicken at July 28, 2015 04:19 PM (+4uXG)

The hobos can sense when the website is in chaos. Drew is hysterical and needs to be slapped hard and often. Gabe is ready to redecorate the place.

Someone has to take control on the ground.

Don't believe the big government/big bank interests who say don't send cash through the mail. Just mail in your Ace Dollars to bring our guy back home.

Posted by: jwest at July 28, 2015 04:24 PM (P/xrJ)

89 The law may ultimately only apply to the universe as a whole, since that is the only truly closed system.

Then it would be effectively no law at all.

Posted by: Grump928(c) at July 28, 2015 04:25 PM (evdj2)

90 It sounds like a bunch of BS to me.

The inputs just don't seem sufficient to produce the theorized outputs.

Get back to me once they've actually built the damn thing and are about to test it.

Posted by: Kreplach at July 28, 2015 04:25 PM (7mKz/)

91 This achievement would have never been possible when that Liar Bush was Presdent. Thank You Presdent Obama for forging forward in the world of tecknawlogy.

Posted by: Mary Clogginstien from Brattleboro, VT at July 28, 2015 04:25 PM (lNSdJ)

92 This is a fun little story . . . . The other pilot, Michael Alsbury, did not survive.

?

Posted by: rebel flounder at July 28, 2015 04:26 PM (Vf5rR)

93 Then it would be effectively no law at all.

Posted by: Grump928(c) at July 28, 2015 04:25 PM (evdj2)
Like that pesky old Constitution.

Posted by: barky the appeaser at July 28, 2015 04:26 PM (EgOr3)

94 "Oh, and while we're talking about space travel, scientists are saying that a reactionless thrust device called the EM Drive might actually work."

Like tulips in the spring, one of these claims comes along every year. Keeps the grant money flowing.

Posted by: bergerbilder at July 28, 2015 04:26 PM (+jijM)

95 The Death Star had out-gassings, look what happened to it. For want of a screen,it go ka-boom.

Posted by: Anna Puma at July 28, 2015 04:26 PM (7Eo8i)

96 The Chinese are going to launch one soon as a test bed it is claimed.

IF this is even thrust from ablation of the outside of the chamber, it is evidently an order of magnitude better than an ion engine like the one we have on the New Dawn orbiter at Ceres.

If it provides a bit of thrust, put a few solar panels, some batteries and radiators and a few IPads strapped to a chassis and see what it can do in high orbit. If it actually works like advertised - prove it by orbiting the moon in a month.

Posted by: Inspector Cussword at July 28, 2015 04:27 PM (LlQKJ)

97 Then it would be effectively no law at all.
Posted by: Grump928
----------------

Kind of like 'personal morality'.

Posted by: NASA at July 28, 2015 04:27 PM (9mTYi)

98
Howie Carr texter: the reason Tom Brady deleted his texts is because he didnt want people to know about his yoga classes ans his daughter's wedding plans

Posted by: Soothsayer II at July 28, 2015 04:27 PM (XSnPt)

99 Is this EM drive another big muzlim discovery?

Posted by: Cicero (@cicero) at July 28, 2015 04:27 PM (8ZskC)

100
So is this thing a rocket or are we talking flying cars here?

Posted by: eleven at July 28, 2015 04:27 PM (ykfyK)

101 Inspired by Nightmare Fuel in the sidebar. The Nazi rocket fighter plane the Me-163 was powered by nightmare fuel. No.spark was needed because when the two fuels met in the cumbustion chamber they automatically exploded creating thrust. So if the plane crashed and the two fuel tanks burst, there would be a huge explosion. And the plane had no wheels for landing, only a landing skid. Finally, the fuels were extremely acidic so if any got on the pilot, he sustained a serious chemical burn.

Posted by: The Great White Snark at July 28, 2015 04:28 PM (lGhMY)

102 Or what?

Posted by: eleven at July 28, 2015 04:28 PM (ykfyK)

103 I'm hoping Ace doesn't come back all Kaitlen.

Posted by: Skip at July 28, 2015 04:29 PM (CFAPf)

104 >So is this thing a rocket or are we talking flying cars here?

Provides less thrust than a stiff breeze. Only useful in outer space.

Posted by: fb at July 28, 2015 04:29 PM (wjd4o)

105 The law may ultimately only apply to the universe as a whole, since that is the only truly closed system.

Then it would be effectively no law at all.

More Obama lawlessness!!!one!!!eleventyone!!!1!!

Posted by: Brother Cavil, down with Eph 6:12-13 at July 28, 2015 04:29 PM (2l5vw)

106 So he was called in to explain the wacky measurements and debunk. It turns out he confirmed the measurements and eliminated a host of possible errors - and the thrust measurements are in line with predicted - and that does not make sense unless we have stumbled into some sort of tabletop handmade Casimir Effect. In a copper box. That anyone can make.
Posted by: Inspector Cussword

I have to admit that, under my careful scepticism, I'm saying, "Oh, please! Please! Let it be true! Pleeeeease!"

Posted by: Dianna at July 28, 2015 04:30 PM (DV/Ik)

107 From the EM Drive article: "This means that until something fails or wears down, theoretically the engine could keep running forever..."

Well, yes, that's how things usually work.

(Okay, I ellipsed something important)

Posted by: Turd Ferguson at July 28, 2015 04:30 PM (VAsIq)

108 Pfft. Wake me when they come up with a reliable anti-gravity device.

Posted by: Baron Harkonnen at July 28, 2015 04:30 PM (8ZskC)

109 >>> This is a fun little story . . . . The other pilot, Michael Alsbury, did not survive.

See, its fun because PP got there and salvaged a lot of organs before the rescue crew showed up.

Posted by: Bigby's Reacharound at July 28, 2015 04:30 PM (3ZtZW)

110 Ace is in a monastery in Nepal getting his mind right.

Posted by: eleven at July 28, 2015 04:31 PM (ykfyK)

111 I have to admit that, under my careful scepticism, I'm saying, "Oh, please! Please! Let it be true! Pleeeeease!"

To be sure, a whole lot of discovery has been prefaced with the words, "That can't be right..."

Posted by: Brother Cavil, down with Eph 6:12-13 at July 28, 2015 04:31 PM (2l5vw)

112 I have to get to outer space for it to work?

I haz a sad.

Posted by: Feh at July 28, 2015 04:31 PM (snZ6y)

113 Whatever power source is used to make it go, that power's momentum was removed from its previous environment and placed into the drive.

That's not how momentum works. You're thinking conservation of energy.

They're measuring thrust, which is a constant acceleration with a constant transfer of momentum ... but have so far failed to identify where the transferred momentum is from.

Posted by: ConservativeMonster at July 28, 2015 04:31 PM (0NdlF)

114 Settle for nothing but the best: Fritz's Photon Drives.

We're light-years ahead of our competition.

Posted by: Fritz at July 28, 2015 04:31 PM (o/UmK)

115 I wonder if the Soviet Justice Wankers will want to burn every copy in existence of We Reach the Moon for being raaaaaaciissssstttt!!!!!!11!!.

Kenneth B. Clark, a Negro psychologist at the City University of New York, told a congressional committee: "I just don't think the moon is going to be an adequate substitute for the face that we haven't addressed ourselves to clearing up the slums.

pg 125. [i[We Reach the Moon. John Noble Wilford. New York Times/Bantam Books. 1969.

Posted by: Anna Puma at July 28, 2015 04:32 PM (7Eo8i)

116 The EM Drive will be powered by Cold Fusion.

Posted by: Grump928(c) at July 28, 2015 04:32 PM (evdj2)

117 The Peter Siebold story is incomplete.

His parachute failed a few thousand feet from the ground.

He was falling totally out of control.

At the last moment, he remembered his medical kit, opened it then took out a pill and swallowed it.

Siebold suddenly stopped falling less than a foot from the ground.

Luckily, he'd remembered- Viagra stops Peters from falling.

Thank you! I'll be here all week.

Try the Tang and reconstituted Patty Melt Paste.

Posted by: naturalfake at July 28, 2015 04:33 PM (0cMkb)

118 89 The law may ultimately only apply to the universe as a whole, since that is the only truly closed system.

Then it would be effectively no law at all.
Posted by: Grump928(c)

Ka-bingo!

Think about photons. They have no mass whatsoever. So if you shine a light outward, you are not emitting any mass. So if you are in a "closed system" shining a flashlight in one direction, you are not violating the closedness of that system.

NOW, think about the standard high-school physics experiment where you hang a piece of gold foil inside a vacuum, and shine a light on it: the foil moves, away from the light (and then swings back, if it's attached to a wire).

That means the photons are "knocking" the foil away. They are moving the mass of the foil.

Which means that the photons are exerting a force of whatever the mass the foil is attached to.

Which means that, if you simply put a sealed case around everything I described, and had a nuclear generator inside the case powering a laser, and if you shone the laser at one side of the interior of the case, painted matte black -- the entire system would move in a direction. And yet it would not be exchanging mass with the outside world

This "violates" the "Law of conservation of momentum," and we can do it without any fancy machines.

I believe the EM drive is a similar concept, just more efficient.

Posted by: zombie at July 28, 2015 04:33 PM (jBuUi)

119 To be sure, a whole lot of discovery has been prefaced with the words, "That can't be right..."

At some point, that camp is going to have to be wrong. Or we will never advance.

Posted by: rickb223 at July 28, 2015 04:33 PM (jTo7g)

120 When my patented K9 fart drive comes out things will change.

Posted by: Killerdog at July 28, 2015 04:33 PM (UJvte)

121 "have so far failed to identify where the transferred momentum is from"

Ah, so it's like Obama's stimulus.

Posted by: Feh at July 28, 2015 04:33 PM (snZ6y)

122 Yeah,
Apparently we have a commander in chief who also has some space between his ears ..
And that space will not occupy a third term in our WH...

Posted by: Jimbo BBQ at July 28, 2015 04:33 PM (/WmRg)

123 Waiting for one of those infinite improbability drives.

Posted by: Bertram Cabot Jr. at July 28, 2015 04:33 PM (W5DcG)

124 This is a fun little story . . . . The other pilot, Michael Alsbury, did not survive.

?

Posted by: rebel flounder

Perhaps he was low class, crude, and liked CBFs.

Posted by: Moderate Salami, weeping for our Republic at July 28, 2015 04:34 PM (/Ho8c)

125 Pfft. Wake me when they come up with a reliable anti-gravity device.
Posted by: Baron Harkonnen at July 28, 2015 04:30 PM (8ZskC)
-------------------------------------------------------------------
It's not an anti-gravity device. It's a pro levitation device.

Posted by: Margaret Sanger at July 28, 2015 04:34 PM (E5UB0)

126 This achievement would have never been possible when that Liar Bush was Presdent. Thank You Presdent Obama for forging forward in the world of tecknawlogy.
Posted by: Mary Clogginstien from Brattleboro, VT at July 28, 2015 04:25 PM (lNSdJ)

See people? THIS is how it's done.

It's the gratuitous spelling error there that marks the author of this post as a true master of the sock genre.

Posted by: Sean Bannion at July 28, 2015 04:34 PM (V+kmg)

127 During one of her daily classes, a teacher trying to teach good manners, asked her students the following question:

'Michael, if you were on a date having dinner with a nice young lady, how would you tell her you have to go to the bathroom?'

Michael said: 'Excuse me, I need to pee.'

The teacher responded: 'That would be quite impolite. What about you Sherman, how would you say it?'

Sherman said: 'I am sorry, but I really need to go to the bathroom. I'll be right back.'

'That's better, but it's still not very nice to say the word bathroom at the dinner table.

And you, little Johnny, can you use your brain for once and show us your good manners?'

Johnny said: 'I would say "Darling, may I please be excused for a moment? I have to shake hands with a very dear friend of mine, whom I hope to introduce you to after dinner.'

The teacher fainted.

Posted by: Peaches at July 28, 2015 04:34 PM (EgOr3)

128 >>Ace is in a monastery in Nepal getting his mind right.

Training with Ra's a Ghul?

Posted by: Lizzy at July 28, 2015 04:35 PM (NOIQH)

129 Naturalfake is no longer allowed to tell jokes.

Posted by: rickb223 at July 28, 2015 04:35 PM (jTo7g)

130 Johnny said: 'I would say "Darling, may I please be excused for a moment? I have to shake hands with a very dear friend of mine, whom I hope to introduce you to after dinner.'

Johnny gets points off for the dangling participle.

Posted by: The AoSHQ House Pedant at July 28, 2015 04:36 PM (8ZskC)

131 There was a pilot who dropped 22k feet and lived...

Posted by: Jimbo BBQ at July 28, 2015 04:36 PM (/WmRg)

132 Obviously the momentum is coming from the other Universe.

Posted by: eleven at July 28, 2015 04:36 PM (ykfyK)

133 I'm hoping Ace doesn't come back all Kaitlen.
Posted by: Skip at July 28, 2015 04:29 PM (CFAPf)
--------------------------------------------------
Heh, that would be a mistake. He sounds nothing at all like a woman. He'd never convince anyone.

Posted by: Caitlyn Jenner at July 28, 2015 04:37 PM (E5UB0)

134 I will not be betting on this" EM drive" working at all. These conservation laws are pretty fundamental things. If a violation is found, then it means the universe appeared to make it look like things were a certain way, then sneakily turned around and hid things. It doesn't work that way, at least to date.

If it's working, producing thrust, then there may be some unknown physics at work, and the conservation laws will be holding, just involving some physics we didn't yet know about. This has happened in the past. Chances of this are about 1%.

To a 19th century physicist, a nuclear reactor would be violating conservation laws because he didn't know about the strong nuclear force, which makes EM look whimpy.

Remember those guys who thought they may have found some superluminal neutrinos? Yeah, not so much. And that's where I'm betting this is going. Not so much. 99% chance it's not so much.

Posted by: publius (not Breitbart publius) at July 28, 2015 04:37 PM (dvuhZ)

135 I rather liked that one, rickb223. In a dorky, punnish sort of way.

Posted by: Moderate Salami, weeping for our Republic at July 28, 2015 04:37 PM (/Ho8c)

136 >>Ace is in a monastery in Nepal getting his mind right.

As long as it's not Sokushinbutsu.

Posted by: HR braucht ein Bier at July 28, 2015 04:38 PM (/kI1Q)

137 Ace is in a monastery in Nepal getting ~~his mind right~~ trained as Batman.

Posted by: Bigby's Reacharound at July 28, 2015 04:38 PM (3ZtZW)

138 Naturalfake is no longer allowed to tell jokes.

Posted by: rickb223 at July 28, 2015 04:35 PM (jTo7g)

Awww, maaaaan!

Posted by: naturalfake at July 28, 2015 04:38 PM (0cMkb)

139 10 >>> Is Ace okay???

My theory: ace is posting from a computer in Gabe's house, but forgot to relog in as himself.
Posted by: Caitlyn Jenner at July 28, 2015 04:07 PM (E5UB

Nope, not wordy enough to be ace.

Posted by: Misanthropic Humanitarian at July 28, 2015 04:38 PM (QyBQv)

140 Posted by: The AoSHQ House Pedant

I thought that was Hairy Reed...oh, wait...pedant.

Nevermind.

Posted by: Moderate Salami, weeping for our Republic at July 28, 2015 04:38 PM (/Ho8c)

141 Johnny gets points off for the dangling participle.

I'm guessing that's not what he was looking to get off.

Posted by: Brother Cavil, down with Eph 6:12-13 at July 28, 2015 04:38 PM (2l5vw)

142 It is apparent to me that this EM Drive opens a worm hole to another dimension and is sucking energy from that other dimension!

Or.. perhaps not.

Posted by: Chi-Town Jerry at July 28, 2015 04:39 PM (so+oy)

143 'Law' of conservation of momentum???

Its more of a guideline....

Posted by: Capt. Barbosa, Space Pirate at July 28, 2015 04:39 PM (qh617)

144 I rather liked that one, rickb223. In a dorky, punnish sort of way.

It kinda left me flat.

Posted by: rickb223 at July 28, 2015 04:39 PM (jTo7g)

145 Ace is in a monastery in Nepal getting his mind right

Who knows what evil lurks in the hearts of posters? The Ewok knows...

Posted by: Brother Cavil, down with Eph 6:12-13 at July 28, 2015 04:39 PM (2l5vw)

146 Great White Snark, the Apollo Lunar Module ascent and descent engines were designed to ignite without a spark.

Hence the fuels used were: Nitrogen Tetroxide as the oxidizer with hydrazine and unsymmetrical dimethylhydrazine as the propellant.

Posted by: Anna Puma at July 28, 2015 04:39 PM (7Eo8i)

147 Dude, where is Ace?

Pretty soon, we're going to need to change the URL for this site to malor.mu.nu

Anywise, that EM drive concept is pretty neat. Did some research (like reading, not the actual engineering and sciency stuff) on it a few months back as part of building a sci-fi universe setting.

Posted by: Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus at July 28, 2015 04:39 PM (Maary)

148 And yet it would not be exchanging mass with the outside world

This "violates" the "Law of conservation of momentum," and we can do it without any fancy machines.

Momentum is not the same thing as mass. Photons are said to have momentum precisely because of the mechanism you describe where light particles are able to push things.

Posted by: ConservativeMonster at July 28, 2015 04:40 PM (0NdlF)

149 The EM is creating shortlived micro-singularities that pull the device in one direction.

Posted by: Grump928(c) at July 28, 2015 04:40 PM (evdj2)

150 How long before the current administration (Read Valarie Jarret) signs off on demanding that the EM technology is shared with ChiComs and Iran?

Posted by: Golfman at July 28, 2015 04:40 PM (48QDY)

151 My theory?

EM drive waves are interacting with the Gravity field... ie another thing we don't understand.

Which means it may not work in deep space...

Posted by: BB Wolf at July 28, 2015 04:40 PM (qh617)

152 Naturalfake is no longer allowed to tell jokes.
Posted by: rickb223

Awww, maaaaan!
Posted by: naturalfake

Yay! I have power! Someone bought my bullshit!

Posted by: rickb223 at July 28, 2015 04:41 PM (jTo7g)

153 118: No, it doesn't. Photons have no *rest mass*. They have energy and they do have momentum. Anyway, the notion of a particle and what not is really sort of fuzzy anyway. It's fields.

The Classical EM field carries momentum as well as energy. The radiation back reaction, a (directional) radiator feeling a thrust, throws momentum off with the radiation field. IOW, what momentum a photon rocket gains is cancelled out by an equal and opposite amount of momentum carried away by the radiation field.

Posted by: publius (not Breitbart publius) at July 28, 2015 04:41 PM (dvuhZ)

154 150 How long before the current administration (Read Valarie Jarret) signs off on demanding that the EM technology is shared with ChiComs and Iran?

Posted by: Golfman at July 28, 2015 04:40 PM (48QDY)

Its not ours... it was invented by a Brit...

Which means the EU will own it.... and do nothing with it...

Posted by: BB Wolf at July 28, 2015 04:41 PM (qh617)

155 It kinda left me flat.

Posted by: rickb223

Heh.

Posted by: Moderate Salami, weeping for our Republic at July 28, 2015 04:41 PM (/Ho8c)

156 Posted by: zombie at July 28, 2015 04:33 PM (jBuUi)

I do learn some stuff at the HQ. Zombie is often responsible.

Posted by: Golfman at July 28, 2015 04:42 PM (48QDY)

157 I'd explain how the Drive works to you folks, but you've just disappointed me one too many times.

Posted by: Presn't Obama at July 28, 2015 04:43 PM (VAsIq)

158 So apparently Trump is talking Trey Gowdy for AG and Palin maybe Interior for his cabinet. He should really concern himself with winning first I think.

Posted by: wrg500 at July 28, 2015 04:43 PM (S+el1)

159 The AoSHQ House Pedant at July 28, 2015 04:36 PM (8ZskC)

I initially read that as AoSHQ House Plant.

Posted by: Peaches at July 28, 2015 04:44 PM (EgOr3)

160 The secret to the EM drive is Mentos.

Posted by: Count de Monet at July 28, 2015 04:44 PM (JO9+V)

161 Momentum is not the same thing as mass. Photons are said to have momentum precisely because of the mechanism you describe where light particles are able to push things.
Posted by: ConservativeMonster

Then explain how my "device" does not violate the law of conservation of momentum.

From an outsider observer's viewpoint, there is a sealed box which propels itself forward without being acted on by any outside force, and which does not eject mass in the opposite direction as a propellent.

From the inside observer's viewpoint, inside the box, there is a nuclear reactor powering a laser which shines on one matte black interior wall of the box. And that's it.

Would this device work, in theory? And if so, isn't it violating the law of conservation of momentum?

Posted by: zombie at July 28, 2015 04:44 PM (jBuUi)

162 >>> EM drive waves are interacting with the Gravity field... ie another thing we don't understand.

It only works when it's being *watched*

Posted by: Bigby's Reacharound at July 28, 2015 04:45 PM (3ZtZW)

163 A lot of Gabe posts lately.

Did he lose his day job?

Posted by: Grampa Jimbo at July 28, 2015 04:45 PM (1ijHg)

164
I remember reading some syfy story when I was a kid about solar sails (not solar cells). So the solar winds catch the sail and propel it thru space and as long as you don't stop it or hit something you just move along.

I guess that is not a real thing, but the story was good enough I remembered that part.

Posted by: Guy Mohawk at July 28, 2015 04:45 PM (ODxAs)

165 I do learn some stuff at the HQ. Zombie is often responsible.

Posted by: Golfman at July 28, 2015 04:42 PM (48QDY)

Big Olive propaganda.

*raises eyebrow suggestively*

Posted by: ConservativeMonster at July 28, 2015 04:45 PM (0NdlF)

166 It kinda left me flat.
Posted by: rickb223 at July 28, 2015 04:

No fucking shit

Posted by: Rachel Corrie at July 28, 2015 04:45 PM (Z58Xa)

167 Yay! I have power!

Posted by: rickb223 at July 28, 2015 04:41 PM (jTo7g)

Next up your wife. Yea go ahead I dare you.

Posted by: wrg500 at July 28, 2015 04:45 PM (S+el1)

168 Posted by: BB Wolf at July 28, 2015 04:41 PM (qh617)

The Brits didn't build that!

Posted by: Golfman at July 28, 2015 04:45 PM (48QDY)

169 A sealed box?

So what did you Morons do to Schrodinger's cat this time?

Posted by: Anna Puma at July 28, 2015 04:45 PM (7Eo8i)

170 It only works when it's being *watched*

Posted by: Bigby's Reacharound

Too busy, sorry.
*zooms in on busty conservative lady*

Posted by: NSA at July 28, 2015 04:46 PM (VAsIq)

171 Okay, so who unlocked the friggin' wing?

Posted by: Ray Van Dune at July 28, 2015 04:46 PM (b9fEe)

172 I guess that is not a real thing, but the story was good enough I remembered that part.

It's a real thing. The question I always have is is the thrust straight out from the Sun, or can you get some deflection from the sail?

Posted by: Grump928(c) at July 28, 2015 04:47 PM (evdj2)

173 Seems to me we could just use the particles that already have momentum.

Posted by: Neil DeGrasse Tyson at July 28, 2015 04:47 PM (WjXce)

174 This is a fun little story.

I wouldn't exactly call this "fun."

Lucky for one, very sad for another.

At least they were doing what they loved.

Posted by: artisanal 'ette at July 28, 2015 04:47 PM (qCMvj)

175 Look, we, here at Fritz's Photon Drives, think the EMDrive is a magnificent idea if you want to sail the solar system and reheat your refried beans as the same time.

But if you're serious about interstellar travel, nothing tops a Fritz's Photon Drive. Nothing!

Posted by: Fritz at July 28, 2015 04:47 PM (o/UmK)

176 The good solar sails... or should we go all romantic and call it the ethereal current?

Posted by: Anna Puma at July 28, 2015 04:48 PM (7Eo8i)

177 Of course, it could be forcing a quantum foam effect at the specific angles formed in the cavity and with the "beam" of microwaves. That's just standard Casimir effect and can "appear" to violate all sorts of logic and laws but it really does exist. Forces can "appear" at certain boundaries and can be measured - they already exist, but who knows what's going on? My bet is Casimir Effect is being "harvested" and that's where the momentum is coming from - vacuum energy so to speak, in the form of momentum.

In any case, seeing them figure it out is fun, even if it doesn't turn out to be scalable. .

Posted by: Inspector Cussword at July 28, 2015 04:48 PM (LlQKJ)

178 The problem with space travel, (or lack thereof), is that we have been spoiled by all of the sci fi movies.
It has been made to look so easy, routine, & mundane that most people can't understand why we can't do it.

Take that alternate "earth", Kepler something.
1400 light years away. At current understanding, traveling at the spped of light, is a spaceship left earth tomorrow, it would arrive July 29th, 3415.

Posted by: rickb223 at July 28, 2015 04:48 PM (jTo7g)

179 Posted by: ConservativeMonster at July 28, 2015 04:45 PM (0NdlF)

Funny you mention raising an eyebrow.

Just left the dermatologist. She removed a small cyst from my left temple. Told the wife I can easily do the Spock thing with my one eyebrow numb as shit.

Posted by: Golfman at July 28, 2015 04:48 PM (48QDY)

180 Someone has to take control on the ground.

Where is Al Hague when you need him?

Posted by: Paladin at July 28, 2015 04:48 PM (ycm4Q)

181 If you wanted to solar sail from the Earth to Venus, would you have to slingshot off Jupiter?

Posted by: Grump928(c) at July 28, 2015 04:49 PM (evdj2)

182 "A sealed box?

So what did you Morons do to ~~Schrodinger's cat Hillarythis time?"~~

Posted by: Bandersnatch at July 28, 2015 04:49 PM (JtwS4)

183 Sail to Venus, would probably have to tack into the solar wind just as if you were on one of Earth's oceans.

Posted by: Anna Puma at July 28, 2015 04:50 PM (7Eo8i)

184 Oh, and while we're talking about space travel, scientists are saying that a reactionless thrust device called the EM Drive might actually work. A very big deal, if true. Although, it seems to me that even its proponents are treating it like magic. They literally don't know why thrust is occurring and so can't really explain why the drive isn't breaking the law of conservation of momentum.

nice

Posted by: artisanal 'ette at July 28, 2015 04:50 PM (qCMvj)

185 >>The secret to the EM drive is Mentos.

And diet coke.

Posted by: Lizzy at July 28, 2015 04:50 PM (NOIQH)

186 @ 162 - "EM drive waves are interacting with the Gravity field... ie another thing we don't understand. "

Bigravity?

Posted by: Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus at July 28, 2015 04:50 PM (Maary)

187 Posted by: Inspector Cussword at July 28, 2015 04:48 PM (LlQKJ)

See 156. Off to DDGo I go.

Posted by: Golfman at July 28, 2015 04:50 PM (48QDY)

188 Then explain how my "device" does not violate the law of conservation of momentum.

Photons have momentum per current physics theory.

"The energy and momentum of a photon depend only on its frequency"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photon#Physical_properties

From an outsider observer's viewpoint, there is a sealed box which propels itself forward without being acted on by any outside force, and which does not eject mass in the opposite direction as a propellent.

But has light particles transferring momentum.

From the inside observer's viewpoint, inside the box, there is a nuclear reactor powering a laser which shines on one matte black interior wall of the box. And that's it.

Would this device work, in theory? And if so, isn't it violating the law of conservation of momentum?

The device works, but does not violate conservation of momentum when the photon is considered to have momentum despite being massless. (Don't ask me why, it involves long forgotten math)

If you want to challenge that physics model, you'll have to find a local physicist Moron. I just play with computers.

Posted by: ConservativeMonster at July 28, 2015 04:50 PM (0NdlF)

189 Sail to Venus, would probably have to tack into the solar wind just as if you were on one of Earth's oceans.

But can you tack? That's my question.

Posted by: Grump928(c) at July 28, 2015 04:50 PM (evdj2)

190
oh crap

Posted by: Bandersnatch at July 28, 2015 04:51 PM (JtwS4)

191
Just saw this bumper sticker on th ride home:

Elect JESUS

I had no idea. What party is Jesus running under?

Posted by: Soothsayer II, twelve-time Top Commenter at July 28, 2015 04:51 PM (XSnPt)

192 Al Hague

falling all about laughing, on many levels

Posted by: Peaches at July 28, 2015 04:51 PM (EgOr3)

193 If you wanted to solar sail from the Earth to Venus, would you have to slingshot off Jupiter?

Slingshot off Uranus.

(you knew that was coming)

Posted by: rickb223 at July 28, 2015 04:51 PM (jTo7g)

194 181 Grumpy928(c)

Give me a large enough tree branch, and a long enough piece of surgical tubing, and I could slingshot Jupiter.

Posted by: Neil DeGrasse Tyson at July 28, 2015 04:51 PM (WjXce)

195 Posted by: rickb223 at July 28, 2015 04:48 PM (jTo7g)

Or something like 50+ generations away.

Posted by: Golfman at July 28, 2015 04:52 PM (48QDY)

196 Many of you may be familiar with the classical Poynting vector, E x H (that's a vector cross product), the power flux of the field (well, to be precise, it's integral over a closed volume is the rate energy is moving out/in that volume).

The field momentum has a similiar form, D x B, the cross product of the flux densities. If you check the units, you'll see this has the dimensions of momentum per unit volume.

The EM field momentum gets a bit more complicated because you find dealing with momentum fluxes requires a step up to tensors, which is not usually done in simple undergraduate level EM theory. (See the so-called Maxwell Stress Tensor)

But believe me, the momentum (and energy) of the EM field is a well-known thing, and it follows all conservation laws.

If this drive is producing thrust, then it is violating conservation of momentum, **as we know it**. If it is working as claimed, then there is some unknown physics at work, some way it pulling momentum and throwing it off from some unknown source.

Posted by: publius (not Breitbart publius) at July 28, 2015 04:52 PM (dvuhZ)

197 Wasn't there a time when photons were called wavicles because they were on the boundary of wavelength and particle?

Posted by: Anna Puma at July 28, 2015 04:52 PM (7Eo8i)

198 Elect JESUS

I had no idea. What party is Jesus running under?

Posted by: Soothsayer II, twelve-time Top Commenter at July 28, 2015 04:51 PM (XSnPt)
Probably some Mexican thing.

Posted by: Peaches at July 28, 2015 04:52 PM (EgOr3)

199 But can you tack? That's my question.

Posted by: Grump928(c) at July 28, 2015 04:50 PM (evdj2)

should be able. I don't see why sailing in space should be any different than sailing on earth. Same principals apply

Posted by: wrg500 at July 28, 2015 04:53 PM (S+el1)

200 @ 191 - "I had no idea. What party is Jesus running under? "

I dunno, but I can tell you which ones he *isn't*.

Posted by: Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus at July 28, 2015 04:53 PM (Maary)

201
Jesus' campaign slogan?

God Is My Running Mate

eh?eh?

Posted by: Soothsayer II, twelve-time Top Commenter at July 28, 2015 04:53 PM (XSnPt)

202 196 publius (not Breitbart publius)

You're shit's all retarded

Posted by: Neil DeGrasse Tyson at July 28, 2015 04:53 PM (WjXce)

203 >>> At current understanding, traveling at the spped of light, is a spaceship left earth tomorrow, it would arrive July 29th, 3415.

See this is where I think SETI is way off base. They shouldn't "listen" but instead should recalibrate to look for the kind of, obviously, mind-bendingly powerful thrust that would indicate an FTL drive. If we're looking for UFO flyin' saucer green men, that's the sine qua non.

Posted by: Bigby's Reacharound at July 28, 2015 04:54 PM (3ZtZW)

204 Wasn't there a time when photons were called wavicles because they were on the boundary of wavelength and particle?

It was the Old Dark Matter League.

*sad fiddle music plays*

Posted by: Grump928(c) at July 28, 2015 04:54 PM (evdj2)

205 soothsayer

A father-son ticket!

Posted by: JohnnyBoy at July 28, 2015 04:54 PM (WjXce)

206 I don't see why sailing in space should be any different than sailing on earth. Same principals apply

Not at all, unless you have some way to anchor a keel in the aether.

Posted by: Grump928(c) at July 28, 2015 04:55 PM (evdj2)

207 OK gots to go

Posted by: Bigby's Reacharound at July 28, 2015 04:55 PM (3ZtZW)

208 No seriously, you guys, bigravity.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bimetric_gravity

I wasn't just making a tasteless joke.

Posted by: Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus at July 28, 2015 04:55 PM (Maary)

209 The space anchor would be a smaller solar sail?

Posted by: Anna Puma at July 28, 2015 04:55 PM (7Eo8i)

210 Posted by: publius (not Breitbart publius) at July 28, 2015 04:52 PM (dvuhZ)

Burn the witch!

Posted by: rebel flounder at July 28, 2015 04:56 PM (Vf5rR)

211 "I had no idea. What party is Jesus running under? "

---

He's not going to get much traction this first go-around, but his second coming is going to be epic!

Posted by: Turd Ferguson at July 28, 2015 04:56 PM (VAsIq)

212 Ace could be hiding from His Magnificence.
http://tinyurl.com/q2usybv

Posted by: Knows Nothing More at July 28, 2015 04:56 PM (eEW5/)

213 206 I don't see why sailing in space should be any different than sailing on earth. Same principals apply

Not at all, unless you have some way to anchor a keel in the aether.
Posted by: Grump928(c) at July 28, 2015 04:55 PM (evdj2)

Good point. Storms would probably be a tad bit different.

Posted by: Golfman at July 28, 2015 04:56 PM (48QDY)

214 Conservation of Momentum? Not a problem, Obama wrote them an Executive Order allowing them to violate it.

And he will write an EO allowing you to violate the Second Law of Thermodynamics for a small (500,000 dollar) donation to the BHOPPCAVF (The Barak Hussein Obama Post-Presidency Choom And Vacation Fund) A 401C non-profit, of course.

Posted by: JB1000 at July 28, 2015 04:56 PM (16OL0)

215 174 This is a fun little story.

I wouldn't exactly call this "fun."

Lucky for one, very sad for another.

At least they were doing what they loved.
Posted by: artisanal 'ette at July 28, 2015 04:47 PM (qCMvj)

Falling in terror?

Posted by: Buzzion at July 28, 2015 04:56 PM (z/Ubi)

216 The space anchor would be a smaller solar sail?

Dodge Aires K Car.

Posted by: rickb223 at July 28, 2015 04:56 PM (jTo7g)

217
You would need something to "force" against to tack. Maybe gravity of a planet, but as I recall in the syfy story they just expressed air, like a space walking suit, to turn.

Posted by: Guy Mohawk at July 28, 2015 04:57 PM (ODxAs)

218 But can you tack? That's my question.
Posted by: Grump928(c) at July 28, 2015 04:50 PM (evdj2)

should be able. I don't see why sailing in space should be any different than sailing on earth. Same principals apply
Posted by: wrg500 at July 28, 2015 04:53 PM (S+el1)

Well, there's a difference between being in a boat in the sea in earth's gravity, and free floating in a vacuum.

I think slingshotting off orbits is the closest thing to SPACE!-tacking, but physics isn't my forte.

Posted by: ConservativeMonster at July 28, 2015 04:57 PM (0NdlF)

219 And the keel would be something akin to an airfoil but of enough area for the ethereal current to impact on. Could also use this keel to act as the radiator for the waste heat generated by the ship's systems.

Posted by: Anna Puma at July 28, 2015 04:57 PM (7Eo8i)

220 I do learn some stuff at the HQ. Zombie is often responsible.

Posted by: Golfman

All the d*ck jokes, circular firing squads, cheesecake pictures, Wholly Pure True Conservative-bashing and other little quirks aside, the knowledge base represented by the Horde is quite impressive.

There's a bunch of smartypants here. Even little ol' low-class blue-collar me can tell that.

Posted by: Moderate Salami, weeping for our Republic at July 28, 2015 04:58 PM (/Ho8c)

221
How about this as a sticker?

You're ready for Hillary?
I'm ready for Jesus!

Posted by: Soothsayer II, twelve-time Top Commenter at July 28, 2015 04:58 PM (XSnPt)

222 197: Really, "particle" and "wave" are just two different ways of describing the same thing. A "photon" is a quantum of excitation of a particular "mode" of the EM field. That gobblydegook (which is basically putting on a bunch of equations that describe this) can be thought of as a "particle" in some cases, or a "wave" in other cases, depending on a variety factors.

Both are nothing more than products of the human mind trying to put words on a concept that is well, whatever it is.

Posted by: publius (not Breitbart publius) at July 28, 2015 04:59 PM (dvuhZ)

223 >>The space anchor would be a smaller solar sail?

I'm larger than life, baby!
Little known fact: I spent several weeks on a NASA story and was told that my life experience made me a top pick for space flight, should I ever be inclined...

Posted by: Brian Williams at July 28, 2015 04:59 PM (NOIQH)

224 At least they were doing what they loved.

Falling in terror?

Posted by: Buzzion

Dunno about those guys, but I'm not a real big fan of pooping myself.

Posted by: Moderate Salami, weeping for our Republic at July 28, 2015 04:59 PM (/Ho8c)

225 I wasn't just making a tasteless joke.

I thought you were being fancy with BigGravity and going into tinfoil hattery. Heh.

Posted by: ConservativeMonster at July 28, 2015 04:59 PM (0NdlF)

226 The reason a sailboat can move other than directly down wind is two fold, the keel inhibits sideways movement forcing a kind of squeeze-a-seed effect. This let's you move sideways to the wind. The other is actual lift generated by the wing of the sail. This let's you move upwind.

I don't see how either can apply to a space sail.

Posted by: Grump928(c) at July 28, 2015 04:59 PM (evdj2)

227 Posted by: Moderate Salami, weeping for our Republic at July 28, 2015 04:58 PM (/Ho8c)

They even throw in some military stuff from time to time.

Posted by: Golfman at July 28, 2015 04:59 PM (48QDY)

228 >>You're ready for Hillary?
I'm ready for Jesus!

Heh.

Posted by: Brian Williams at July 28, 2015 04:59 PM (NOIQH)

229 Dunno about those guys, but I'm not a real big fan of pooping myself.

Posted by: Moderate Salami

Depends.

Posted by: First with the "Depends" joke! at July 28, 2015 05:00 PM (VAsIq)

230 We fell further!

Posted by: Zombie George Clooney and Zombie Tim Robbins at July 28, 2015 05:00 PM (JO9+V)

231 Ace spotted:

https://youtu.be/oA7VvJU5Lqw?t=12s

Posted by: Waldo Hunter at July 28, 2015 05:00 PM (yn6XZ)

232
another sticker idea:

Ready for Hillary's....Trial!

Posted by: Soothsayer II, twelve-time Top Commenter at July 28, 2015 05:00 PM (XSnPt)

233 Dunno about those guys, but I'm not a real big fan of pooping myself.

Posted by: Moderate Salami

Word.

Posted by: Al Roker at July 28, 2015 05:00 PM (Vf5rR)

234 Time for some heavenly bodies

http://www.ufunk.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/David-Perkins-Home-Stage-13.jpg

Posted by: Anna Puma at July 28, 2015 05:01 PM (7Eo8i)

235 Posted by: First with the "Depends" joke! at July 28, 2015 05:00 PM (VAsIq)

Bravo.

Posted by: Golfman at July 28, 2015 05:01 PM (48QDY)

236 Dunno about those guys, but I'm not a real big fan of pooping myself.

No kidding!

Posted by: Mexican cilantro pickers

Posted by: Peaches at July 28, 2015 05:01 PM (EgOr3)

237 Posted by: Anna Puma

ty, Anna

Posted by: Moderate Salami, weeping for our Republic at July 28, 2015 05:02 PM (/Ho8c)

238 Depends.

Posted by: First with the "Depends" joke!

Touche.

Posted by: Moderate Salami, weeping for our Republic at July 28, 2015 05:02 PM (/Ho8c)

239 EM Drives, Solar Sails--just pull the lever and jump into hyperspace, you idiots!

Posted by: Turd Ferguson at July 28, 2015 05:02 PM (VAsIq)

240 @ 197 - "Really, "particle" and "wave" are just two different ways of describing the same thing."

And it doesn't just apply to photons. All *matter* can exhibit wave properties as well (per DeBroglie's equation), though it's only really measurable for very low mass particles. This is why we talk about electron "wavefunctions" now instead of the old "sun and planets" model.

Posted by: Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus at July 28, 2015 05:02 PM (Maary)

241 232
another sticker idea:

Ready for Hillary's....Trial!
Posted by: Soothsayer II, twelve-time Top Commenter at July 28, 2015 05:00 PM (XSnPt)

That I could put on my truck without a fear of it being keyed or windows being busted out.

Unlike the last 6+ years...

Posted by: Golfman at July 28, 2015 05:03 PM (48QDY)

242 Has your planetary commute got you down?

Ditch the econoline EM "space solenoid" and settle for nothing less than pure luxury: Fritz's Photon Drive.

Chicks dig it and really, what more justification do you need?

Posted by: Fritz at July 28, 2015 05:03 PM (o/UmK)

243 Ludicrous speed !

Posted by: Dark Helmet at July 28, 2015 05:04 PM (W5DcG)

244 Dirigible with big LCD screens floating through the Seattle rain - "Immigrate to the off-world colonies using our new revolutionary EM drive."

Posted by: Anna Puma at July 28, 2015 05:04 PM (7Eo8i)

245
Horizontal Boosters!

Posted by: Han Solo at July 28, 2015 05:05 PM (ODxAs)

246 I'm going to have to re watch my Farscape DVDs to see if this EM is possible or not.

Posted by: Cruzinator at July 28, 2015 05:05 PM (KkliO)

247 @226, Grumpy928(c): The propulsion on a space sail is (in the case of perfect, 100% reflection) half in the direction of particle impact, half in the direction of particle reflection. Combine the two, get a final vector. That allows no tacking toward the source of thrust, but tacking *almost* at right angles, just very slowly. I think.

Posted by: Sporkatus at July 28, 2015 05:06 PM (HtLSE)

248 Ludicrous speed !

Posted by: Dark Helmet

We've gone plaid!

Posted by: Turd Ferguson at July 28, 2015 05:06 PM (VAsIq)

249 Holy crap. Just learned that the Happy Birthday song is public domain!

FREE THE BIRTHDAY SONGS!

Posted by: ConservativeMonster at July 28, 2015 05:06 PM (0NdlF)

250 For Fi and Moderate Salami, more bodies in motion

http://www.ufunk.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/David-Perkins-Home-Stage-11.jpg

Posted by: Anna Puma at July 28, 2015 05:07 PM (7Eo8i)

251 I'm going to have to re watch my Farscape DVDs to see if this EM is possible or not.

Posted by: Cruzinator

I strapped a set to my module. Then Scorpius touched my no-no place.

Posted by: John Crichton at July 28, 2015 05:07 PM (VAsIq)

252 Let's start with a huge disclaimer - oh this won't work, it is silly, we should be frowny frown frowns at violations of physics because of quacks and medicine shows and airports supposedly to be made out of solid uranium that DID NOT TURN OUT RIGHT.

Okay.

BUT-

What if?

We could - according to some numbers - do an orbital probe of Pluto - ORBITAL - in like 5 years. We could - if it really could be scalable - put in a water/refueling hub in medium Earth Orbit for probes, tugs, and freight ships.

If it is really scalable, we could have launching systems cut the cost in half.

Yes, it is bad to pretend things are good and that things like this are ALWAYS BAD and wrong and sciency people love to be Remembered As Frowny at the Right Time.

But what if?

Posted by: Inspector Cussword at July 28, 2015 05:07 PM (LlQKJ)

253 Ace sent in a video message, from his Undisclosed Location:

http://bit.ly/1Jt31ks

Posted by: MTF at July 28, 2015 05:07 PM (TxJGV)

254 Holy crap. Just learned that the Happy Birthday song is public domain!

FREE THE BIRTHDAY SONGS!

Posted by: ConservativeMonster

True story--my birthday is this year.

Posted by: Turd Ferguson at July 28, 2015 05:08 PM (VAsIq)

255 Ludicrous speed !

Posted by: Dark Helmet at July 28, 2015 05:04 PM (W5DcG)

Speaking of ludicrous and Mel Brooks:

http://pjmedia.com/lifestyle/2015/07/27/p-c-police-go-after-mel-brooks-the-producers/

Ugh. These humorless hatchet-heads need to be placed a top an EM Drive and shot into the Sun.

I guess that 'plains why there has never been a printing of "The Producers" musical on Blu-ray.

Posted by: naturalfake at July 28, 2015 05:09 PM (0cMkb)

256 Has your planetary commute got you down?

...

Posted by: Fritz at July 28, 2015 05:03 PM (o/UmK)
-------------------------------------------------
If you lived in space, you'd be home by now.

Posted by: Caitlyn Jenner at July 28, 2015 05:09 PM (E5UB0)

257 But what if?

Posted by: Inspector Cussword

We're all in favor of probes!

Posted by: New Boy Scout Leadership at July 28, 2015 05:09 PM (VAsIq)

258 Combine the two, get a final vector. That allows no tacking toward the source of thrust, but tacking *almost* at right angles, just very slowly. I think.

So, what's the vector, Victor?

Posted by: rickb223 at July 28, 2015 05:09 PM (jTo7g)

259 Did somebody say virgin?

Posted by: Bill Clinton at July 28, 2015 05:09 PM (E5UB0)

260 Tannhauser Gate, here I come!

Posted by: Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus at July 28, 2015 05:10 PM (Maary)

261 Posted by: Inspector Cussword

Huh huh. He said "tugs."

Posted by: Beavis at July 28, 2015 05:10 PM (VAsIq)

262 Thanks for the thought Anna. At work, though.

Posted by: ConservativeMonster at July 28, 2015 05:10 PM (0NdlF)

263
So no sailing into the sun, but riding off into the sunset is still available.

Posted by: Guy Mohawk at July 28, 2015 05:10 PM (ODxAs)

264 I'm still waiting for them to construct the space elevator. They said it was doable over twenty years ago.

Posted by: Cruzinator at July 28, 2015 05:10 PM (KkliO)

265 Posted by: Anna Puma

Wow. Quite fit.

Posted by: Moderate Salami, weeping for our Republic at July 28, 2015 05:11 PM (/Ho8c)

266 The propulsion on a space sail is (in the case of perfect, 100% reflection) half in the direction of particle impact, half in the direction of particle reflection.

Is it though? I guess that's the heart of my question. Can the solar sail get vectored thrust by reflection? Or does the sail just get less pressure straight downlight from the Sun if you twist the canvas. If it can, you can steer, and not just go where the wind blows.

Posted by: Grump928(c) at July 28, 2015 05:11 PM (evdj2)

267 *taps chin*

Do I still have the rulebooks for Space 1899???

Posted by: Anna Puma at July 28, 2015 05:11 PM (7Eo8i)

268 So, roundtrip to Uranus - what are we talking? Days or weeks?

Posted by: Weasel at July 28, 2015 05:11 PM (e3bId)

269 Black matter lives.

Posted by: gg at July 28, 2015 05:12 PM (u1Awp)

270 264
It is, only if we can have a material that has the tensile strength of the strong atomic force.

Which we don't. So they lied.

Posted by: Inspector Cussword at July 28, 2015 05:12 PM (LlQKJ)

271 They said it was doable over twenty years ago.

Posted by: Cruzinator

Well, just because it was doable then doesn't mean it's doable now. Just look at all the hot actresses from the 90s that you wouldn't touch today.

Posted by: Turd Ferguson, making a sex joke at July 28, 2015 05:12 PM (VAsIq)

272 Quick , which is closest to earth , the Sun or Mars?

Posted by: Cruzinator at July 28, 2015 05:13 PM (KkliO)

273 So, roundtrip to Uranus - what are we talking? Days or weeks?

Posted by: Weasel at July 28, 2015 05:11 PM (e3bId)

We talkin' dry or lubed?

*snaps gum*

Posted by: Space Hooker at July 28, 2015 05:13 PM (0cMkb)

274 Quick , which is closest to earth , the Sun or Mars?

Posted by: Cruzinator

The sun is bigger in the sky, so obviously it is closer.

Posted by: My vote counts the same as yours. Twice as much in Chicago. at July 28, 2015 05:14 PM (VAsIq)

275 Posted by: Turd Ferguson, making a sex joke at July 28, 2015 05:12 PM (VAsIq)

Yeah the elevator probably full of cellulite now.

Posted by: Cruzinator at July 28, 2015 05:14 PM (KkliO)

276 Posted by: My vote counts the same as yours. Twice as much in Chicago. at July 28, 2015 05:14 PM (VAsIq)

Quick. Damn.

Posted by: Golfman at July 28, 2015 05:15 PM (48QDY)

277 Since the Earth is 1 AU from the Sun while Mars is 1.52 AU from the Sun...

So which is closer?

Posted by: Anna Puma at July 28, 2015 05:15 PM (7Eo8i)

278 My fart drive causes people to vanish instantaneously.

Posted by: Killerdog at July 28, 2015 05:15 PM (wwOpQ)

279 "Since the Earth is 1 AU from the Sun while Mars is 1.52 AU from the Sun...

So which is closer?"

---------------

Depends on where in their orbits the Earth and Mars are at at a particular time.

Posted by: Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus at July 28, 2015 05:16 PM (Maary)

280 So, roundtrip to Uranus - what are we talking? Days or weeks?

Posted by: Weasel at July 28, 2015 05:11 PM (e3bId)

And, more to the point, is there a merit badge for completing the journey?

Posted by: Peaches at July 28, 2015 05:16 PM (EgOr3)

281 Posted by: Anna Puma at July 28, 2015 05:15 PM (7Eo8i)

I don't understand. What's gold got to do with it?

Told you I'm learning stuff.

Posted by: Golfman at July 28, 2015 05:18 PM (48QDY)

282 If you *could* vector thrust with the solar sail, couldn't you vector anti-orbital and slow yourself down, causing you to move Sunward?

Posted by: Grump928(c) at July 28, 2015 05:18 PM (evdj2)

283 Depends on where in their orbits the Earth and Mars are at at a particular time.

Ah. So on average, the Sun is closer.

Posted by: Grump928(c) at July 28, 2015 05:19 PM (evdj2)

284 >>>So, roundtrip to Uranus - what are we talking? Days or weeks?<<<

With a pint of moonshine, a tub of astroglide, a laser pointer, and a four D-cell Maglite, about 3 hours.

Posted by: Fritz at July 28, 2015 05:19 PM (o/UmK)

285 What's gold got to do with it?

Posted by: Golfman

EVERYTHING!!1!

Posted by: Pon Raul at July 28, 2015 05:20 PM (VAsIq)

286 So, roundtrip to Uranus - what are we talking? Days or weeks?<<<

With a pint of moonshine, a tub of astroglide, a laser pointer, and a four D-cell Maglite, about 3 hours.

Posted by: Fritz

Which way do I go? Is it this hole in the ground?

Posted by: Barky O'Bumbles at July 28, 2015 05:21 PM (/Ho8c)

287 In space, no one can hear you destroy.

Posted by: Stephanie Rawlings-Blake at July 28, 2015 05:21 PM (E5UB0)

288 What happened? Stephanie broke the blog?

Posted by: Turd Ferguson at July 28, 2015 05:23 PM (VAsIq)

289 "Ah. So on average, the Sun is closer."

Correct. IIRC, about once every six years, Mars comes to within ~58 million miles of Earth, but because it orbits the sun every 1.88 years, much of the time it's well away from us.

Last close approach was back in 2014. We won't have to worry about anymore cylinders arriving until sometime in 2020.

Posted by: Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus at July 28, 2015 05:24 PM (Maary)

290 @Grumpy928(c):
Any particles you're bouncing (and things behaving like particles as well as waves) have momentum "a" until they bounce off something, and if they reflect perfectly back in the same direction, they have -"a" going back. The thing they bounced off is imparted 2"a". The vector versions of that are just the more complicated version of the same thing. If the thing bouncing is a photon, it might get absorbed instead of bouncing, which means the "target" increases in energy... which it will need to re-radiate at some point. There is, technically then, a way to "tack", but not by using the sail as a sail - by absorbing the energy and re-emitting it in another direction. Which, the craft being as likely to release a given photon's energy as a new photon in one direction as any other short of things like different surface radiative properties, isn't efficient.

Posted by: Sporkatus at July 28, 2015 05:25 PM (HtLSE)

291 nood.

Posted by: rickb223 at July 28, 2015 05:27 PM (jTo7g)

292 I should have said, you can tack if you add energy. Perfect reception from the direction you want to go and perfect emission away only gives you stasis. Wasn't thinking.

Posted by: Sporkatus at July 28, 2015 05:29 PM (HtLSE)

293
It is like each and every generation must re-discover for themselves that a reactionless drive doesn't work.There was the Dean drive in the 1950s. Didn't fucking work. There was the GIT drive in the 1980s. Didn't fucking work. The theoretical basis for this working istotal rubbish. It violates conservation of momentum, which would basically mean scrapping all of physics and starting over from scratch, yet still predicting the same results of every experiment in physics in the last few hundred years.

A good rule of thumb is to be VERY skeptical of results that are measured at the very limit of accuracy.

Seriously, belief in the EM drive is like most of the progressive agenda - ignore what has been true and worked for hundreds of years, in favor of some super cool new idea. New idea has no theory behind it? So what? New idea is actually old, tried, and failed? So what? New idea flies in the face of reason and science? So what? The new idea is fun and cool, and hip.

Posted by: Geroge Orwell's ghost at July 28, 2015 05:42 PM (HuVX+)

294 Years ago, I remember hearing that by the laws of aerodynamics, a bumblebee shouldn't be able to fly.

But the truth is, nothing about the bumblebee flying violates aerodynamic principles - because it can fly.

I will be the same with EM drive, if it actually works.

Posted by: Semper In Stercus at July 28, 2015 05:48 PM (BZAd3)

295 That thing about the bee shouldn't be able to fly is some old ridiculous bunch of myth that got started way back. True, a bumble bee couldn't fly if it flied like a simple plane, obeying some very simplified rules based on that.

But the bumble bee doesn't fly like a simple plane, it's much more complex than that, and lo and behold, the simplified rules and formulae don't apply.

I think, now with computing power to do numerical solutions of very complex general equations and what-not, the bumble bee's flight is very well modeled now, and perfectly follows the laws of physics. Of course.

Posted by: publius (not Breitbart publius) at July 28, 2015 06:24 PM (dvuhZ)

296 #118 That experiment would not work as you describe in a hard vacuum. You can impart momentum with photons but it takes a lot of them; the imperfect vacuum available in a high school classroom has a few air molecules that can be excited with heat and can push on the metal. It's how a "radiometer" works.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiometer

I'm hoping that the emDrive works, but the jury is still out. This latest experiment has not yet ruled it out, but something this extraordinary requires an extraordinary level of proof, and we aren't there yet.

I wasn't that impressed by the "debunking" link. I particularly hated the quote about "well he might have experimental results but I will ignore them unless he also has a theory to go along with those results". Um what? First of all, the emDrive inventor has a theory (which most physicists dismiss as a fantasy, but nonetheless it's a theory). Second, who cares if there's a theory? If you show conclusively that the thing works, then the thing works, and we can then come up with a theory. (There's a classic old chestnut: a scientist observed that according to the physics equations he knew about flight, a bumblebee cannot fly. This was his humorous way of pointing out that the known physics of the time couldn't be the full story on how flight works. Imagine if he had actually said "well, until I have a theory for how a bumblebee can fly, I refuse to accept that it can fly." Stupid!)

It will be very interesting to see if they can produce a new prototype that develops more thrust, and show that the thrust is produced in a vacuum. If they can do that, put a prototype into space and see if it can push a probe... that would be the acid test; never mind the lab, if it actually works in space, it's useful, no matter what is going on.

Posted by: mr_jack at July 28, 2015 06:46 PM (M59SC)

297 The EM Drive is complete crap and a waste of time. As CalTech physicist Sean Carroll says, "the EM Drive is complete crap and a waste of time".

To work as claim it would have to violate conservation of momentum. If it were possible to violate conservation of momentum that easily, the Universe would not exist. The Universe does exist. Therefore...

P.S. #118 zombie

Photons have energy and momentum. If you shine a light from a closed system that system is no longer closed. The only particles you can emit from a closed system and have the system remain closed are imaginary ones.

Posted by: Pixy and the Hamsters at July 28, 2015 10:05 PM (2yngH)

298 After looking at some details of this latest claim, I'm now 99.999999% sure this is "complete crap and a waste of time". The headlines do not come close to the reality of the latest "experiment".

This latest was done by a character named Tajmar, previously known for some dubious claims of enhanced gravitomagnetic (frame dragging) effects in superconductors. Such effects could not be duplicated. Now he is about anomalous thrust from this fool contraption.

One example is Tajmar continued to measure thrust (micro-Newtons, mind you), even after the power was turned off. This pretty clearly indicates it was some thermal effect, and not momentum conservation violating thrust from the fool contraption.

Posted by: publius (not Breitbart publius) at July 28, 2015 11:08 PM (dvuhZ)

299 The Ace.....it's full of comments! (I just can't keep up)

Posted by: astronaut torabora at July 29, 2015 02:12 AM (cLpjH)

Processing 0.03, elapsed 0.0443 seconds.
15 queries taking 0.0181 seconds, 308 records returned.
Page size 145 kb.
Powered by Minx 0.8 beta.