Donald Trump and the Class War Within the GOP

There is a class war within the GOP. There has been for years.

The war is between two groups. My terminology may not be perfect, and there is lots of give in these terms, but the war is between the Middle/Working Class (hereafter just the Middle Class) and Professional Class, which I sometimes call the "Comfortable Class."

Both classes, frankly, disgust me, depending on the day of the week.

The Middle Class is naked with class resentment and don't seem to mind if the world knows they are seething angry at the Professional Class (whom they feel, correctly, disrespect them). They tend to push a "politics" which is less about actual policy and more about asserting the cultural class supremacy of the Middle Class.

The Professional Class is composed of both actual professionals, who are a fraction of the class, and the larger number of people who aspire to join the Upper Middle Class, but are actually Middle Class.

The Professional Class loves denigrating the Middle Class. One of its proudest achievements is that it's not the Middle Class, but something more.

Also, the Comfortable Class does in fact enjoy showing the liberals that they're not like that rabble, the White Working Class, by making a bigger deal than necessary over PC lapses by the Middle Class.

The Comfortable Class is very PC. It has, in fact, incorporated most of the mores and forbiddances of the Establishment Left. When people call members of this class "sort of liberal," they're 100% accurate.

This is why you'll never see true conservatism win in DC -- the actual representatives you send to DC are almost entirely members of the Comfortable Class, or soon will be (you become the fish you swim with). And they are in fact much, much closer to the Establishment Left than they are the mores and customs of the Middle Class they are nominally allied with.

I despise this class more than the Middle Class.

I'm going to be perfectly honest now and tell everyone what I hate about them.

I hate that the Middle Class is so comfortable being what I would term "crude," and in fact seems to take a backwards-ass pride in being crude of expression, especially in regard to things they know are extraordinarily sensitive. They seem to have this passion for making controversial subjects even more controversial, by engaging in, or supporting, a style of carelessly offensive cant.

But I hate that the Comfortable Class is So. Fucking. Cowardly.

The Comfortable Class routinely lies in order to establish its bona fides with the Establishment Left.

Let me give you an example: the mighty squeal we heard from the Comfortable Class when Ben Carson said, accurately, that you can't say that sexuality is perfectly immutable and inborn, because straight men and women engage in opportunistic homosexuality in prison.

Is anyone actually claiming this is wrong?

The Comfortable Class uses a trick of the Establishment Left in these cases-- they cannot say the thing is actually wrong, because it's self-evidently true.

So instead they play the Uproar game-- they just scream so loud in protest, never quite identifying what was said that is inaccurate, just screaming about how terrible a thing to say it was, without quite saying why a true thing should be so terrible.

This is exactly what the Left does. And the Comfortable Class shares most of the mores of the Left -- and they also share their advantages.

When you are closer to the Establishment, when you have more of a hold on the means of communication, you can play the Uproar game, and you can silence people from saying things that are obviously true (but for whatever reason culturally forbidden).

When you're in a weaker position, you can't.

There is a bit of grumbling I hear from Working Class Whites, who sometimes ask why they can't just demonize a particular group or a particular thought like the Establishment do (the Establishments of both Left and Right).

The answer is simple: Because you don't have that power. You don't have enough of a cultural reach to impose your own Uproar forbiddances. You just don't.

The Establishment Right -- or, Establishment Center, really -- can always just scream about Ben Carson's horrible statement.

They don't bother to answer why, if sexuality is perfectly inborn, with no possible circumstantial or cultural inputs, it could be that some societies, like the ancient Greeks and Romans, had a fair amount of homosexuality, especially in the upper classes; nor why in modern day Afghanistan, it is an accepted and widespread cultural practice that a rich warlord will take a young boy into his bed for pleasure.

If there's no cultural or circumstantial element to homosexuality, are we saying that Greeks and Italians and Afghans are simply more genetically gay than the average population?

Why is homosexuality so frequent in prison? Yes, it's often due to rape; but are those same men raping men outside of prison? Or are they paying female whores and raping female victims?

Ben Carson was right. You might not like the use he put this fact to, but the fact itself was correct.

And the left did not want to discuss it, because it is simply part of their religious dogma that homosexuality is 100% genetic with absolutely no cultural or circumstantial component, so they Uproared it.

And the Comfortable Class Right screamed even louder about it, because Ben Carson was embarrassing them in front of their liberal friends.

Hey, Comfortable Class, I know you so love watching Premium Cable TV shows; do you watch Oz and Orange Is the New Black and routinely say, "These shows are so preposterous! It's absurd to show so much opportunistic homosexuality in prison! Why, that just doesn't happen, ever!" ?

This a thing the left is doing -- you don't know this, probably, and I just realized it, but it is central to the left's electoral ambitions to constantly stir up fights between the Middle Class wing of the GOP and the Comfortable Class of the GOP.

They are always highlighting these cleavages. Always. Confederate flag? Well, that sure does divide the Middle Class from the Professional Class, doesn't it?

Guns, gay marriage, etc. The left has profited greatly by the right's inability to negotiate a united compromise front on these issues, some kind of compromise that the White Working Class and White Comfortable Class can live with.

Instead, both classes are determined to WIN and destroy the other.

The Middle Class has to get over its penchant for wanting to state things in the -- let's be charitable here -- most "direct" way possible. That kind of talk might appeal to you, but it does not appeal to a Republican dentist in Bucks County.

Yes, Middle Class -- you have to take the feelings and sensitivities of the other members of the conservative coalition into account. You don't just get to insist "We get to win because we're right."

A marriage doesn't work when one party is always insisting on his way simply because he feels he's in the right. Of course you feel you're in the right. Everyone always does.

It takes delicacy to maintain a partnership.

If the GOP wants to be, forever, the party of only working class white men and married women, fine, but just because you might hold the Upper Middle Class in contempt, and think the wealthy Philly suburbs are filled with stupid PC voters -- and I hold both of those positions myself -- you cannot base a politics on Working Class White Resentment alone and think you're going to win elections.

The only people who care about putting the Middle Class on top of the Cultural Pyramid are Middle/Working Class members themselves. No one else is in favor of this, and this isn't even a political issue -- it's a pure social class struggle having nothing to do with policy, and everything to do with ego and a desire for broad-based cultural validation.

And to the Comfortable Class -- My God, get the fuck over yourselves. So you graduated college. So did 40% of the country.

Do you think you've become a separate, elite species due to this not-so-bragworthy accomplishment?

Stop playing those snotty games by which you attempt to put the Lower Orders in their Place, damnit, and tell them How It's Gonna Be.

You don't have the power you think you do.

And you're not as smart as you think you are, either.

Again: Get over yourselves. You talk an awful lot about what is politic and what is winning strategy; how about putting some of that theory into practice and making common cause with a group you absolutely need the 100% support of?

Maybe you could try not being used like an easy 2am booty call for the Left every time they sext you "u up?"

In short, these two feuding classes, who obviously hate each other (every single Twitter war or comment fight soon resolves cleanly into the Middle Class vs. Comfortable Class), need to get over the emotional fight they really love having and get their fucking heads screwed on straight and start fighting the fight they care less about, but which is more important to win.

No conservative has ever won without a significant majority of both cultural cohorts.

One without the other is a loss -- even if one is super-pumped up.

This is, by the way, why I don't think I can support Trump: Yes, it's wonderful that he excites the working class whites component of the Middle Class.

But he repulses the Upper middle Class whites.

You can't win that way. You just can't. Period.

Maybe the Comfortable Class is too silly about these things (I do think they are pretty silly), but that's the fact. He has said the sort of things no member of the Comfortable Class will associate himself with, ever -- remember, they are almost as PC as the left - and hence this is a losing candidacy.

Every candidate is going to please one cohort more, but you just can't win associating yourself that closely with only one, and telling the other "I'm nothing like you, and in fact I find you unworthy of respect."

I'm tired of politics degenerating into a proxy war for class-based cultural superiority.

I would say I'm tired of politics, but when do we actually ever get to discuss politics? Seems to me we're always having this cowardly proxy-war over who shall be Top Dog in the Loser's Coalition, the White Working Class or the Comfortable Class.

At some point, this ego-based stupidity needs to end.

Everyone likes to call himself a patriot, but constantly getting into intraparty Class Wars is not patriotic. It's a loser's game, and one the left laughs at while we frag each other.

We don't all have to agree here, or even like each other. We are not all friends; we are certainly not family.

But this passive-aggressive shit from the Comfortable Class -- and this aggressive-aggressive shit by the prouder member of the Middle Class -- has to end.

All we need to do is forge compromises between each other that we can mutually live with and then go in a united front to face the real enemy. Not compromises with the left, but compromises with each other.

Or, we can do what we've been doing, and just keep on losing, and blaming each other, and just fighting other conservatives.

I speculated one time that we like fighting other conservatives so much because deep down we know we're easy to beat.

So we can keep on fighting in the junior leagues, to see who gets to take the 4 inch Participation Trophy home, or we can put aside childish things and act like men and women who care about their country and not just their class prerogatives.

What is Class? A lot of people don't seem to know. For example, LincolnTF writes:

Just because there is "such a thing" as "Class" doesn't mean it has to be determinative in any way. Money is all you're talking about anyway, not the archaic usage of "Classes".

Um, no. A lot of people seem to think that classes have a neat hierarch, one on top of the next. That's not true. This illusion comes from the fact that there is clearly one class at the tippy-top -- the very rich -- and there are clearly two classes at the bottom (the underclass and the struggling/working poor).

However, in the middle, there are various middle classes, most of which are not on top of each other, but rather latitudinal to each other.

I am most certainly not talking "just about money." As I've mentioned endlessly, the original class division we're talking about, between the professional/clerical middle class and skilled worker middle class (carpenters, etc) started in england.

The two classes had equivalent education and made equal money. However, they lived in different neighborhoods and had different accents.

The professional/clerical class was largely like our current professional/clerical class- mid-level managers, guys who added up columnar math in accounting houses. Not really the classic High Professions.

But they were called "Mind workers" -- unlike the "hand workers" of the middle class.

Even though a carpenter had to do a lot more mind-work to build a desk than a guy had to do mechanically copying accounting books.

The classes divided there not on income or education, but simply on white collar/blue collar grounds, and they have remained divided ever since.

Even today, you will find low intermarriage rates between the two classes. The Upper Middle Class is filled with low-level people who don't make much money -- but they do consider themselves socially superior to the Working Class.

In fact, there's a whole concept of "Genteel Poverty" -- poor people working as Kinko's copyboys and waitresses and such who are actually from/of the "Upper Middle Class." They come from wealthier middle class families, they have college degrees (an important signifier for the class) -- and they work crappy jobs, but still call themselves, at least in their minds, Upper Middle Class.

Why, they even might work crappy jobs like blogging!

Class is simple and hierarchical at the very top and very bottom; but in the middle, there are a lot of horizontal or diagonal relationships.

Now the Upper Middle Class's top is higher than most of the other middle classes, both in income and social position. But that class is filled with mere aspirants -- those who are not really Upper Middle Class based on income of social position, but who aspire to such. And so that class is led by those at the actual top, and those at the top have the support of all the aspirants. So it's a bit higher than the other middle classes -- but mostly in a diagonal sort of way, not directly on top.

Bandersnatch said my terminology is causing consternation because people don't like the word "class." I guess Americans have been taught, quite falsely, that there is no class in America.

Well, there is. Just not a pronounced as in England or other places. But it's here.

He says I should just speak of "tribal signifiers." Well, class is mostly a collection of tribal signifiers, plus an input based on what kind of work you do and what kind of work your dad did.

Yes, this is an archaic idea; but human nature has not changed, I swear, for 100,000 years, so archaic ideas still accurately depict archaic humanity.

Posted by: Ace at 04:31 PM

Comments

(Jump to bottom of comments)

1 So we are doubling down on this today? Should go over well.

Posted by: SH at July 09, 2015 04:35 PM (gmeXX)

2 Thought you would have picked up a new topic on twitter.

Posted by: Misanthropic Humanitarian at July 09, 2015 04:36 PM (9mTYi)

Posted by: OurCOuntryIsScrewed at July 09, 2015 04:37 PM (DlmoZ)

4 4th?

Posted by: OurCOuntryIsScrewed at July 09, 2015 04:37 PM (DlmoZ)

5 5th?

Posted by: OurCOuntryIsScrewed at July 09, 2015 04:37 PM (DlmoZ)

6 6th? Trifecta?

Posted by: OurCOuntryIsScrewed at July 09, 2015 04:37 PM (DlmoZ)

7 Holy wall of words, Batman!

Posted by: Grump928(c) Person of Pallor at July 09, 2015 04:38 PM (evdj2)

8 So Comfortable Class = went to college and got some liberalism?

Posted by: Yo! at July 09, 2015 04:38 PM (W6iIX)

9 Oh, so we're taking the argument from the last thread and amplifying it now so everyone gets all worked up and hates each other?

Shit, may as well mention the War of Southern Secession or the Confederate Battle Flag so we can really go at it.

Posted by: mynewhandle at July 09, 2015 04:38 PM (AkOaV)

10 All we need to do is forge compromises between each other that we can mutually live with and then go in a united front to face the real enemy.

Where do we compromise though? What does the Comfortable Class give up, and what does the Working Class give up?

And what of those of us who are Comfortable Class by income and Working Class by temperament.

Posted by: V the K at July 09, 2015 04:38 PM (O7MnT)

11 I have no class at all.

Posted by: Michael the Hobbit at July 09, 2015 04:38 PM (0RdKg)

12 I do have to say though, I wasn't a huge fan of the movie either.

but the CGI was pretty cool.

But then again, it's not like that's NEW technology, ya know?

Posted by: mynewhandle at July 09, 2015 04:38 PM (AkOaV)

13 Love Trump or hate him - you have to give him credit. He is saying stuff that makes not only the Left but also the Right cringe.

And some of what he does say resonates well with people.

Do I think he has a chance? No. And I'm not hanging my hopes on his candidacy. But I do admire his style.

Posted by: OurCOuntryIsScrewed at July 09, 2015 04:39 PM (DlmoZ)

14 Do we want to win? Or do we want things to work? Is things-working even a possibility at this point?

Posted by: Grump928(c) Person of Pallor at July 09, 2015 04:39 PM (evdj2)

15 As a comfortable class professional white person, I call bullshit on a whole bunch of your assumptions. However, I will admit to feeling superior to some of the newer mouth breathers around here, so, nice job or whatever.

Posted by: Gristle Encased Head at July 09, 2015 04:39 PM (1RNgT)

16 Where do we compromise though? What does the Comfortable Class give up, and what does the Working Class give up?

This was not meant as a rhetorical question.

Posted by: V the K at July 09, 2015 04:39 PM (O7MnT)

17 Comfortable Class talks like a fag and their shits all retarded.

Posted by: wooga at July 09, 2015 04:39 PM (skLky)

18 One decent candidate to rally around would solve this.

Posted by: West at July 09, 2015 04:40 PM (1Rgee)

19 Ok - I commented after only reading the headline with Trump it in it and not the post. That was not fair.

Posted by: SH at July 09, 2015 04:40 PM (gmeXX)

20 And what of those of us who are Comfortable Class by income and Working Class by temperament.
Posted by: V the K at July 09, 2015 04:38 PM (O7MnT)

Yeah, I think ace is wrong on this. Or the terminology is wrong, at least.

I'm certainly "comfortable class" by income, occupation, education level, and (well, sort of, I recently moved) by geography.... yet I *identify* much more with the "working class" then with the type of people he's talking about.

Posted by: mynewhandle at July 09, 2015 04:40 PM (AkOaV)

21 Do (WWC Repubs. + CC Repubs) > 'Free Sh!t Army'?

That's the $200 Trillion question.

Posted by: Stateless Infidel at July 09, 2015 04:41 PM (AC0lD)

22
crap!

and Yo!

Posted by: Yo! at July 09, 2015 04:41 PM (W6iIX)

23

ace, what do you consider yourself? Just curious

Posted by: Misanthropic Humanitarian at July 09, 2015 04:41 PM (9mTYi)

24 This is, by the way, why I don't think I can support Trump

ace,

I really truly believe that few if any commenters here see Trump as a viable candidate.

I could be wrong but I don't think so.

He is a circus clown. The left has circus clowns too. But you know what they DON'T do?

They don't throw them under the bus and treat them as if they are embarrassments. Instead they use them , pay them , direct them to support a message. Hell, publicly they will support them. Right up to the part when they outive their usefulness.

If conservatism has any hope at all, they CAN'T wet their pants everytime another Ross Perot shows up.

Posted by: some random meathead - if you're not drinking, you're not paying attention at July 09, 2015 04:41 PM (bgKZk)

25 What if you are Comfortable Class but self-identify as Working Class (but not the White Working Class)?

Posted by: SH at July 09, 2015 04:42 PM (gmeXX)

26 And what of those of us who are Comfortable Class by income and Working Class by temperament.

Or those of us considered an Unperson by both classes?

Posted by: HR braucht ein Bier at July 09, 2015 04:42 PM (ZKzrr)

27 >>>> The White Professional Class loves denigrating the White Working Class. One of its proudest achievements is that it's not the White Working Class.

It is no longer accepted for Whites to go around calling Blacks N-words. It is OK for White Professionals to go around calling Working Class Whites dirtbags, scum, assholes, shits. From across the street, in mixed company, at parties, whatever. Don't even pretend they don't.

Posted by: Bigby's One Hand Clapping at July 09, 2015 04:42 PM (3ZtZW)

28 >>> So Comfortable Class = went to college and got some liberalism?

it's not just that. Each class has its own idea of "respectability." Some PC-ness is a big part of the Upper Middle Class' idea of respectablity.

People do not want to be thought of poorly *within their own class.* For all of history, most people have feared being unrespectable within their own class. It's a phenomenon used to force conformity within a class.

Posted by: ace at July 09, 2015 04:42 PM (bhepQ)

29 Shit, may as well mention the War of Southern Secession or the Confederate Battle Flag so we can really go at it.

Atlanta at dawn, suh! With pistols!

Posted by: rickb223 at July 09, 2015 04:42 PM (5fXFG)

30 So basically, you're just fed up with everyone?

Posted by: Farmer Joe at July 09, 2015 04:42 PM (Q2akM)

31 As someone who is as guilty as the next 15 people of doing this, I agree with you, ace.

Posted by: alexthechick - Oh please intervene SMOD at July 09, 2015 04:43 PM (mf5HN)

32 Excellent post; likely one of the best I've read here.

Thank you.

Posted by: Uriah Heep at July 09, 2015 04:43 PM (ZMZ2g)

33 Comfortable Class talks like a fag and their shits all retarded.

No we don't. You do.

Posted by: Mr. Poo Poo at July 09, 2015 04:43 PM (oZr5y)

34 Populism, Nativism and Protectionism. The great unwashed can outvote the elite. They can also beat their asses if it comes to that.

Posted by: Grump928(c) Person of Pallor at July 09, 2015 04:43 PM (evdj2)

35 I respect what you're saying, and I think you're being fair. But...

"So we can keep on fighting in the junior leagues, to see who gets to take the 4 inch Participation Trophy home, or we can put aside childish things and act like men and women who care about their country and not just their class prerogatives."

The Working Class Whites, as you call them, have been shit on for ages. And they put up with being shit on, because they were told that was necessary to win, and that politics meant sacrifices. So they had to sacrifice in order to win.

And they sacrifice. They kept their mouths shut about all but a small cluster of issues. They voted for assholes they hated because it was 'good for the party'. And the party won.

Which the party celebrated by immediately betraying them, over and over, with 'failure theatre'.

The comfortable class thinks 'caring about their country' is identical with 'caring about their class prerogatives'. The working class whites have been playing ball, making sacrifices, watching victories get squandered on comfortable class bullshit, being told repeatedly 'Don't worry fellas, your time is coming'. Which means 'We'll put on some failure theatre /just for you guys/ if we win!'

When the comfortable class 'wins', more and more it's hard to tell the difference between that kind of victory, and a victory for the 'other side' we're supposedly fighting against. And once that sinks in, don't be surprised if the working class whites start doing crazy things that will just make sure the 'comfortable class' loses. Because you know what? If you have no chance to win, making some of the people hate you lose is at least something.

Posted by: Crude at July 09, 2015 04:43 PM (DUynq)

36 Who are these comfortable class/upper middle class people you know? This is what they say/believe? Sounds like a quick review of a few media stereotypes forced into a conclusion. Class envy is real, always will be, but I don't think it's a driver of votes in the GOP, or of much outside the L'est of the LIV's.

Posted by: LincolnTf at July 09, 2015 04:43 PM (2cS/G)

37 I think a better method is to talk about Rockefeller versus Roosevelt (Teddy) versus Redneck.

Posted by: wooga at July 09, 2015 04:44 PM (skLky)

38 I hate that the White Working Class is so comfortable being what I would term "crude," and in fact seems to take a backwards-ass pride in being crude of mind and crude of expression.

Its interesting how this is also seen in the black underclass. They reject anything that has to do with being "white" ie: education, language, clothing, culture.

Posted by: Iblis at July 09, 2015 04:44 PM (9221z)

39 "Donald Trump and the Class War Within the GOP"

That's an interesting movie name.

Posted by: Drill_Thrawl at July 09, 2015 04:44 PM (JOG+K)

40 How many turds can we get in this punch bowl?

Posted by: NCKate at July 09, 2015 04:45 PM (bP6xm)

41 >>>For all of history, most people have feared being unrespectable within their own class. It's a phenomenon used to force conformity within a class.
-ace

Well, i think that has went out the window. Especially social norms.

Posted by: Misanthropic Humanitarian at July 09, 2015 04:45 PM (9mTYi)

42 So what'cher sayin' is that I can't get a Trump sandwich without the Trump?

Posted by: weft cut-loop at July 09, 2015 04:45 PM (VY8H5)

43 I do have to say though, I wasn't a huge fan of the movie either.

but the CGI was pretty cool.

But then again, it's not like that's NEW technology, ya know?
Posted by: mynewhandle at July 09, 2015 04:38 PM (AkOaV)

But the volcano!

C'mon, the volcano was awesome.

Posted by: alexthechick - Oh please intervene SMOD at July 09, 2015 04:45 PM (mf5HN)

44
One decent candidate to rally around would solve this.
Posted by: West

C'est Moi!

Posted by: Jeb!

Posted by: Laurie David's Cervix at July 09, 2015 04:45 PM (kdS6q)

45 As a member of the White Professional Class, let me say I like the prospect of a Trump win good, because it will break something. I think a Jeb win might be good too, if it splits the party and leads to a new one.

Chaos is a ladder, a guy on TV once said. It's time to do something that breaks the current system. Because the current system is not good.

Posted by: Bevel Lemelisk at July 09, 2015 04:45 PM (1LOcx)

46 Yeah, I think ace is wrong on this. Or the terminology is wrong, at least.

No, I see it as being between the traditional republican and the social democrat republican

Posted by: wrg500 at July 09, 2015 04:45 PM (sWgE+)

47 I'm a working class white who works 44-46hrs a week. My main concerns are high taxes and Democrats who are trying to steal my retirement income.

Posted by: dantesed at July 09, 2015 04:46 PM (88xKn)

48 Personally, and I recommend all of you do the same thing - draw a list of items that you will NOT compromise on. Now there are no perfect candidates out there, but I"m tired of giving up ground on key issues important to me. And yes, at this point in time I am willing to lose elections for them. It is clear the GOP does NOT represent us, in fact they despise us - except 2 weeks leading up to election day. Then they piss in our coffee and tell us its lemonade. Until they are so far out of power that they have some great awakening - f*** them.

I picture these political compromises to be very similar to a graphic I saw a while ago depicting all of the compromises on gun control. It is depicted as a piece of cake. Every time a new gun bill is pushed, gun rights advocates give up some (half) of their cake. They start with a whole cake and end up with all of the compromises amounting to nothing but a sliver.

Posted by: OurCOuntryIsScrewed at July 09, 2015 04:46 PM (DlmoZ)

49 Are you lookin at me?
Are you lookin at me?

Posted by: NCwoof at July 09, 2015 04:46 PM (aUQgu)

50 Makes a lot of sense. Class lines run deep and cut across even party lines.

Posted by: brak at July 09, 2015 04:46 PM (Tj+s6)

51 What pisses me off is the Left is always able to mend these differences and get most of what they want.

Our side simply can't.

Both sides are to blame, there is a large swath of our side that seems to have zero interest in actually winning anything or making changes, they just want to fire shots in the crowd of the other side.

I honestly think there is a way to address what Trump is saying without dividing our coalition.

Posted by: McAdams at July 09, 2015 04:46 PM (rE2PN)

52 Shit, may as well mention the War of Southern Secession or the Confederate Battle Flag so we can really go at it.
Posted by: mynewhandle at July 09, 2015 04:38 PM (AkOaV)

Longbow!

Posted by: Drill_Thrawl at July 09, 2015 04:46 PM (JOG+K)

53 That thing in your mouth? 4-inch participation trophy. They do that.

Posted by: Sporkatus at July 09, 2015 04:46 PM (HtLSE)

54 Were you licking a doughnut while typing this little rant Ace?

Posted by: maddogg at July 09, 2015 04:46 PM (xWW96)

55 Ah, so the prior thread was just a test bench for this post? I'll have to catch it later. Thanks, Ace. Later, all.

Posted by: rebel flounder at July 09, 2015 04:47 PM (Vf5rR)

56 48
Personally, and I recommend all of you do the same thing - draw a list of items that you will NOT compromise on.

Posted by: OurCOuntryIsScrewed at July 09, 2015 04:46 PM (DlmoZ)

There were polls on this a while ago, if I recall correctly.

Posted by: Stateless Infidel at July 09, 2015 04:47 PM (AC0lD)

57 A very pertinent article on how we've been psychologically manipulated (and continue to be) for the current tide of rapid change.

Brain washed if you will. How it happened, why it happened and what to do about it.

Here: http://tinyurl.com/nt4wzvl at theFederalist.com

How To Escape The Age Of Mass Delusion

Posted by: Bitter Clinger and All That at July 09, 2015 04:47 PM (x3GpS)

58 Ace,
I don't think there's a war between the classes within the GOP per se. I think it's more about actual conservatives vs. RINO's and squishes. I've been low end working class and still conservative. I was low middle class and the same. I would say I am now middle middle class and the same if not more conservative. Maybe that's with age, who knows. I think the real battle is already here and it's with the establishment whom only pays us any attention when they need to get a squish elected. We've held our nose long enough. And now the establishment is OUTRAGED! that us mere serfs won't play along. The battle is here and it starts with stopping the madness of voting Dem-Lite. We've rewarded their behavior long enough so we're partly to blame.

Posted by: Minnfidel at July 09, 2015 04:47 PM (cYXYO)

59 Great post, Ace!

I guess what I'd like to know is: since the GOP is for the most part, the Comfortable Class, how do we get them to be more conservative/acknowledge that they are not serving a lot of their party's voters short of someone like Trump crashing in?

I'd LOVE a reasoned, detailed, fact-full refutation of the Jeb/Christy immigration = love stance, or the "we can reform Obamacre from the inside" stance, etc. but no one is providing it.

Posted by: Lizzy at July 09, 2015 04:47 PM (NOIQH)

60 I hate that the White Working Class is so comfortable being what I would term "crude," and in fact seems to take a backwards-ass pride in being crude of mind and crude of expression.

This is a insular misunderstanding of the White Working Class. The WWC is your plumber, the guy who fixes your care, the woman that used to sew garments until the factory shut down. *They* populate the churches, they support the schools. They ARE America.

Posted by: Grump928(c) Person of Pallor at July 09, 2015 04:47 PM (evdj2)

61 wow, some raw anger there. this diatribe doesn't feel right to me at all.

I think the "comfortable class" and the "Working Class" have lots more in common than Ace seems to believe, but I respect his effort to define RINO with a little more nuance (invective aside).

Mostly I'm angry with those comfortable centrist people, whether leaning left or right, who seem to assume that if the bell isn't tolling yet for them, it isn't tolling. If Republicans are being investigated by the IRS, having to live through home invasions under John Doe warrants, etc etc but those things are happening to other people , well then, its no big deal.

It is a big deal. ObamaCare and

Posted by: MTF at July 09, 2015 04:47 PM (DkJ4E)

62 Welp, men who drive bulldozers and men who work in an office enviroment as accountantshave noticeably diffrent views of conflict resolution.

Posted by: Yo! at July 09, 2015 04:47 PM (W6iIX)

63 I hate that the White Working Class is so comfortable being what I would term "crude," and in fact seems to take a backwards-ass pride in being crude of mind and crude of expression.

I can inhabit both camps, (comfortable and working), with ease. Let a "Comfort" start looking down their nose, and I'll be in "Working" in a heartbeat. And if it twists their knickers, the harder the better.

Posted by: rickb223 at July 09, 2015 04:48 PM (5fXFG)

64 And what of those of us who are Comfortable Class by income and Working Class by temperament

You get a Ford Raptor.

The distinction doesn't seem to really be one of income, but haughtiness. There are a lot of middle management types driving Ford Tauruses that are "comfortable class".

Posted by: wooga at July 09, 2015 04:48 PM (skLky)

65 >>>ace, what do you consider yourself? Just curious

both, neither, hate both

Posted by: ace at July 09, 2015 04:48 PM (bhepQ)

66 I spent the first 32 years of my life in the white working class. I have since moved up to the white professional class.

I retain my virtues from being in the working class and find them essential to remaining in the professional class.

I relate to both classes and loved the way Ronald Reagan brought both together to defeat the Democrats and revolutionize conservatism.

Posted by: Adirondack Patriot at July 09, 2015 04:49 PM (NjiZL)

67 well, that was weird. my computer decided I was talking too much (61) I guess, and went ahead and posted.

you get the point.

Posted by: MTF at July 09, 2015 04:49 PM (DkJ4E)

68 income-wise I'm working class, but I have a comfortable-class *type* job.

in other background history, i have elements of both.

Posted by: ace at July 09, 2015 04:49 PM (bhepQ)

69 "No conservative has ever won without a significant majority of both cultural cohorts."

Coalitions only work when each side sees greater advantage than disadvantage.

The Republicans have destroyed any credibility they once had with the working class of the party by their appeals to cultural superiority salting the wounds inflicted by decades of policy failure and betrayal.

Conservatives and others are welcome to pick up the slack and reorganize. I'd rather see the Uniparty go down in flames together than trying to stitch together another wholly one-sided alliance with Republican, Inc.

All organizations over time become corrupt, inefficient and unresponsive. Renewal is necessary, and long overdue.

Posted by: SocietyIs2Blame at July 09, 2015 04:49 PM (WIOql)

70 Posted by: Lizzy at July 09, 2015 04:47 PM (NOIQH

Good questions.

Posted by: Misanthropic Humanitarian at July 09, 2015 04:49 PM (9mTYi)

71 It's more than that. Working Class Whites and Upper Middle Class Whites have *no common cause*.

UMC are socially leftist, WCW at least aspire to be moral.
UMC want more government to keep them safe from everyone else, WCW don't want to pay for it.
UMC similarly want more government to keep them safe from the rest of the world, WCW don't believe that shit is working.
UMC believe remaining one nation with all the freaks of the democrat coalition is important, WCW increasingly don't.

The only reason we all have wound up looking at the gor to get our way is because the UMC have found them cheaper than the dems, and WCW simply aren't recognized as human by them.

Posted by: Methos at July 09, 2015 04:50 PM (ZbV+0)

72 Longbow!

45ACP!!!

Posted by: wrg500 at July 09, 2015 04:50 PM (sWgE+)

73 Posted by: alexthechick - Oh please intervene SMOD at July 09, 2015 04:43 PM (mf5HN

As someone who, by weirdness of family moves pretty seamlessly though both of these classes, ace's point is very cromulent. (and yes, I shit on whatever class I'm not haginging in at any given moment.)

Here's the problem though: shitting on each class is part of it: but also is the war of goring the other side's ox. And that's where we'll never get anywhere.

There is no "conservative" base. There are bases which want to be "conservative" about some things, but only those which benefit them.

So the working class wants to subsidize working class things (be it via stimulus, or helpful deregulation or straight up subsidies)
The Comfortable class the same.

Drew goes on and on about the "big business GOP" but that's jus the comfortable class getting it's grabby hands on.

Iowa's love of all things corn subsidy is the working class doing the same.

The only way to unify these groups is to give free shit to everyone. Which obviously is the democrat's arena.

Posted by: tsrblke, PhD(c) rogue bioethicst at July 09, 2015 04:50 PM (s92xH)

74 51 What pisses me off is the Left is always able to mend these differences and get most of what they want.

Interestingly, it's not as unified as it seems. GamerGate is in some ways a civil war on the Left.

In fact, the only people fighting the culture war right now are libertarian lefties.

Posted by: Bevel Lemelisk at July 09, 2015 04:50 PM (1LOcx)

75 What pisses me off is the Left is always able to mend these differences and get most of what they want.

Our side simply can't.

Both sides are to blame, there is a large swath of our side that seems to have zero interest in actually winning anything or making changes, they just want to fire shots in the crowd of the other side.

I honestly think there is a way to address what Trump is saying without dividing our coalition.

Posted by: McAdams at July 09, 2015 04:46 PM

The problem, name one big thing that the establishments have sided with conservatives over? Funny how it's always the conservatives that must bend. Look at Boehner going after anyone who dared cross him on TPP.

Posted by: Minnfidel at July 09, 2015 04:50 PM (cYXYO)

76 I hear you Ace, I do, and you have a point, we should be working on unification instead of division. But the RNC doesn't hear you. They are the ones doing the dividing. According to the RNC any Republican with Tea Party sensibilities is a racist redneck tax cheat. That is pretty much what they have said. According to the RNC any Republican who takes Scripture at face value or is Pro Life is an insensitive snake-handling bigot. According to the RNC any Republican who wants border security taken seriously and who wants illegal immigrants treated as doing something ILLEGAL are all insensitive redneck racists who fly the Confederate Flag at home.

But if I am a pro-choice, pro-illegal, pro-ghey wedding, pro big government, pro-"living Constitution", pro-big government Republican, than how am I different than a Democrat?

Posted by: exdem13 at July 09, 2015 04:50 PM (ry4ab)

77 I do not like the Republicans but I hate the democrats....It's like being caught between the Corleones and the Barzinis.....each bad, each corrupt, each looking to stick their schlong up my keester. What are you gonna do?

Posted by: Hillary with a Wang! at July 09, 2015 04:50 PM (D0NZx)

78 Cleavages at the HQ. Is that allowed?

Posted by: andycanuck at July 09, 2015 04:50 PM (kivUY)

79 yeah, I've been thinking about it.

"working class" and "comfortable class" aren't really what I see as the schism.

It's cities / inner suburbs verse "everyone else".

I see it as much more cultural than "class" based.

Because the poor kid living in manhattan can look down on those stupid hicks in fly over country. Even if they make more money and have better life styles. They're just uneducated backwards rednecks who aren't worth listening to.

And more rural people see the "city folks" as thinking they're better than everyone, and it causes resentment.

I see the gun control debate as the best proxy of this phenomena. The "call a cop if someones breaking in to your house!" theory verse the "uh, yeah I'd rather protect myself then rely on officer Dipshit"

Posted by: mynewhandle at July 09, 2015 04:50 PM (AkOaV)

80 >>>I can inhabit both camps, (comfortable and working), with ease. Let a "Comfort" start looking down their nose, and I'll be in "Working" in a heartbeat. And if it twists their knickers, the harder the better.

kind of proving my point that the only thing we seem to want to fight is this class war to determine Who Is Better

Posted by: ace at July 09, 2015 04:50 PM (bhepQ)

81
TL;DR

Posted by: Working Class White at July 09, 2015 04:50 PM (yPsNs)

82 I guess I'm in the working class whites category, because the comfortable class folks drive me up a wall - I detest being patronized.

However, I don't like Trump, the Cartoon Conservative, because he embarrasses me, and is doing damage to my policy preferences. I think this may be by design - he's a Moby Candidate, playing his shtick purely to put us - and what we want politically - out of the game so that the Comfortable Class and the Left can keep driving us over the cliff.

Posted by: Jeff Weimer at July 09, 2015 04:50 PM (Edob3)

83 Ace, you have said that the rupture is upon us.

I agree. There is no compromise with either totalitarian or wishful thinking.

Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at July 09, 2015 04:51 PM (659DL)

84
I think what you're describing here, ace, is an unsolvable conundrum.

You are saying that two swaths of conservatism would rather fight each other over tribal signifiers than unite on achieving political goals. In other words, you are pointing out how strong human nature is in political humans.

One of my favorite flame wars here was iceberg lettuce vs. arugula. This, sadly, is who we are.

Posted by: Bandersnatch at July 09, 2015 04:51 PM (JtwS4)

85 The Working Class Whites are naked with class resentment and don't seem to mind if the world knows they are seething angry at the Professional Classes (whom they feel, correctly, disrespect them). They tend to push a "politics" which is less about actual policy and more about asserting the cultural class supremacy of the White Working Class.

I gotta say, I am curious how many of these white 'working class' folks you know in NYC who fit with this?

I'm not sure I agree with your assessment. But I'll think about it.

Posted by: Lea at July 09, 2015 04:51 PM (lIU4e)

86 Call me when you have no class.

Posted by: Rodney Dangerfield at July 09, 2015 04:51 PM (WCnJW)

87 >>>I hear you Ace, I do, and you have a point, we should be working on unification instead of division. But the RNC doesn't hear you. They are the ones doing the dividing. According to the RNC any Republican with Tea Party sensibilities is a racist redneck tax cheat.

without doubt the RNC has chosen sides and plainly despises the White Working Class.

They are all Comfortable Class people.

Posted by: ace at July 09, 2015 04:51 PM (bhepQ)

88 And which class provides the manpower to fight our wars? Shouldn't that class be considered to have more skin in the game?

I've picked apples and worked in the packing shed. I've never understood by the comfortable class thinks Mexicans will be perfect peons and do the dirty work forever. If nothing else, they will displace blacks as government workers.

Posted by: Notsothoreau at July 09, 2015 04:52 PM (Lqy/e)

89 I guess we should strive to be in the perfect white ace class.

Posted by: Cruzinator at July 09, 2015 04:53 PM (4SgJh)

90 The Republicans have always been the party of the owners and managers. The WWC are the dreaded socons that have caucused with the Republicans because the Democrats rejected their ideals. Since the Republicans are not looking out for the WWC, either economically or socially, where's the glue to bind them?

Posted by: Grump928(c) Person of Pallor at July 09, 2015 04:53 PM (evdj2)

91 Right, we in the working class worked our tails off in 2010 and 2014 sending so many new Republicans to Washington that they actually got a majority.

They got a majority, payoffs for their rich friends and lots of perks.

What did we get for that?

So tell me again who the f*ck needs to compromise and cooperate.

Posted by: saltlick at July 09, 2015 04:53 PM (is1QN)

92 So i'm thinking a good candidate would be a 1st generation professional class. That way he'd have grown up around the morlocks and have some empathy for them. Be able to grunt like them.
And of course not be a Jay Gatsby sort who rejects where they came from.
Actually that's about wherei fit in. so elect me bitchz.

Posted by: Buzzsaw90 at July 09, 2015 04:53 PM (/eTPT)

93 >>>You are saying that two swaths of conservatism would rather fight each other over tribal signifiers than unite on achieving political goals. In other words, you are pointing out how strong human nature is in political humans.

One of my favorite flame wars here was iceberg lettuce vs. arugula. This, sadly, is who we are.

...

right.

the left doesn't have this problem because it's just accepted that the White Comfortable Class will get to tell the blacks, the working class, etc. what's what.

It's a funny thing -- the Party of the People doesn't have this problem because the Comfortable Class is so unchallengedly on top.

Posted by: ace at July 09, 2015 04:53 PM (bhepQ)

94
Another thought is working class peeps generally have a more sex segregated work place.
Most plumbers, roofers, HVAC, etc work with mostly other men.

Meanwhile alot of upperclassjobs have more men and women working in the same office. Accountantants, dentists, engineers etc.
Most women don't want to be around someone who is considered a 'meanie'

Posted by: Yo! at July 09, 2015 04:53 PM (W6iIX)

95 This class split is in no way confined to the GOP, but Ace is otherwise essentially correct.

I have a theory why this animates the upper class in particular. Ultra-condensed version: being Ruling Class doesn't actually gain you much in an America where "poor" people have running water, electricity, heat, A/C, HDTVs, reliable cars, dishwashers, smartphones, etc. So they want to break down modern society and reinstate something like feudalism, because then the lower class will KNOW THEIR FUCKING PLACE.

Note that the end result of environmentalism is that a lot of those things would become too expensive for people outside of the Ruling Class to have. That's a feature, not a bug.

Posted by: Ian S. at July 09, 2015 04:54 PM (B/VB5)

96 Not sure I'm buying this either. Maybe it's the terminology.

Dividing up people into dubious classes to make an anti-classist argument seems a little strange, but I'll admit to not completely getting the pint here.

Knowing that Trump is what sparked this piece, I think the point that the Trump-sympathetic crowd has been trying to make is not that he's a conservative, or even a viable candidate, but that he's been more effective at bringing a serious national issue into the public's view where no elected Republican has even dared to try.

As such, even if he IS a Democrat plant (and I think he is), he is useful.

Posted by: Burn the Witch at July 09, 2015 04:54 PM (xSCb6)

97 Well at least the FAA is concentrating on doing their important work for the Govt.

"Three navigation coordination points above Palm Beach International Airport that had been named in honor of Donald J. Trump will be renamed, the Federal Aviation Administration said Wednesday."

http://preview.tinyurl.com/qf6apa5

Posted by: Buzzsaw at July 09, 2015 04:54 PM (81UWZ)

98 without doubt the RNC has chosen sides and plainly despises the White Working Class.

They are all Comfortable Class people.

Posted by: ace at July 09, 2015 04:51 PM (bhepQ

Thread winner.

Now, do we sit idly by while it burns or do we fight to keep it from burning.

Posted by: Misanthropic Humanitarian at July 09, 2015 04:54 PM (9mTYi)

99 But the volcano!

C'mon, the volcano was awesome.
Posted by: alexthechick - Oh please intervene SMOD at July 09, 2015 04:45 PM (mf5HN)

it really was quite an awesome visual.

Posted by: mynewhandle at July 09, 2015 04:54 PM (AkOaV)

100 Boom goes the dynamite!

Well spake, ace.

Posted by: jakeman at July 09, 2015 04:54 PM (Wq40h)

101 i would like a candidate who can excise the word 'class' from his rhetoric.

Posted by: Buzzsaw90 at July 09, 2015 04:54 PM (/eTPT)

102 Here: http://tinyurl.com/nt4wzvl at theFederalist.com

How To Escape The Age Of Mass Delusion

Posted by: Bitter Clinger and All That at July 09, 2015 04:47 PM (x3GpS)

Thanks. That was a great link.
And ace also managed to work in 'prison rape' into the Donald Trump thread thereby concluding "Rape Tuesday" so now I can go finish some items.

Posted by: Stateless Infidel at July 09, 2015 04:54 PM (AC0lD)

103 I hate working around most women.

Posted by: SMFH at it all at July 09, 2015 04:55 PM (kmtse)

104 Your description of White Working Class should also include the word Union, because those are the kinds of people that I tend to associate with the description you offer.
I am White Comfortable Class by virtue of my professional husband's salary, but I am White Working Class, born and bred.

I think there are several more species of White Working Class than you have allowed for ( as opposed to the CC, who really are pretty monolithic in their outlooks) , but I agree about the difference between the Comfortable and Working classes with regards to their world views and the problem with us all reconciling.

Posted by: Tammy al-Thor at July 09, 2015 04:55 PM (j0kTB)

105 58
Ace,

I don't think there's a war between the classes within the GOP per
se. I think it's more about actual conservatives vs. RINO's and
squishes. I've been low end working class and still conservative. I was
low middle class and the same. I would say I am now middle middle class
and the same if not more conservative. Maybe that's with age, who knows.
I think the real battle is already here and it's with the establishment
whom only pays us any attention when they need to get a squish elected.
We've held our nose long enough. And now the establishment is OUTRAGED!
that us mere serfs won't play along. The battle is here and it starts
with stopping the madness of voting Dem-Lite. We've rewarded their
behavior long enough so we're partly to blame.
-----------------
That is a much more concise and to the point version of my previous post.

The RNC wants to make it about "class", so they can look down their noses at all us hicks in flyover country and be cool at DC country clubs. But it is really about conservatives who want the GOP to walk the talk, and the squishy country club types who don't care what happens as long as they get their share of the power pie.

Posted by: exdem13 at July 09, 2015 04:55 PM (ry4ab)

106 Well there you go, the Third Party everyone has clamored for, now introducing "The White Workers Party"! Yaaaay! Yayy! Yeah, maybe not so much.

Posted by: LincolnTf at July 09, 2015 04:55 PM (2cS/G)

107 Ace caught another movie, I see.

Posted by: logprof at July 09, 2015 04:55 PM (gcE+A)

108 >>> People do not want to be thought of poorly *within their own class.* For all of history, most people have feared being unrespectable within their own class. It's a phenomenon used to force conformity within a class.

I don't know about fear and force. I've noticed more of both in the exact Middle, not at the top or bottom, because they fear slipping down.

Best example is military service versus college out of high school, I suppose. With exceptions, Working Class boys want to be of use and working as soon as possible and have a kind of contempt for those who languish in college for another 4-10 years doing nothing useful except "learning" and getting ready for their lives to finally begin. It wouldn't be unrespectable to not go into the military, but it is more respectable. When I meet a man identifiably working class who has not served in the military, I kinda look at him like he's off.

Posted by: Bigby's One Hand Clapping at July 09, 2015 04:56 PM (3ZtZW)

109 Now, do we sit idly by while it burns or do we fight to keep it from burning.

Or throw gas on the fire

Posted by: wrg500 at July 09, 2015 04:56 PM (sWgE+)

110
But the volcano!

C'mon, the volcano was awesome.
Posted by: alexthechick - Oh please intervene SMOD at July 09, 2015 04:45 PM (mf5HN)

it really was quite an awesome visual.

I'm waiting for the European version to come out on BlueRay because they show the girl's titties before she gets thrown into the volcano.

Posted by: Bandersnatch at July 09, 2015 04:56 PM (JtwS4)

111 I hate working around most women.
Posted by: SMFH at it all at July 09, 2015 04:55 PM (kmtse)

You and me both.

Well, I should clarify that I hate working with large groups of women. I can handle individual women as a rule, it's when they are the majority that they drive me batshit crazy.

Posted by: Tammy al-Thor at July 09, 2015 04:56 PM (j0kTB)

112 There are no better candidates coming.

The neo-Marxism that has infested our culture has dumbly been adopted by people on the Right who should know better.
The personal is political, now and for the forseeable future. Let's make everything a zero-sum economics game. A new class war.
Admit it. There are no "mystic chords of memory" which bind us together as a nation of people, of a transcending set of ideas about freedom and liberty. Get that guy, he's an asshole and not like us!

A lot of decent people out there who would like to make a difference have no desire to be pilloried for something dug up about them that they did 20 years ago. Like being a philatelist, or something. Wearing striped shirts with plaid pants.

How stupid are we, as a nation? People are seriously talking about JOE BIDEN as a presidential candidate, because the Democrat party craves power above everything else.

Posted by: Bossy Conservative....outlaw in America at July 09, 2015 04:57 PM (RFeQD)

113 There are more things similar between 'classes' of Republicans than differences. When one side complains of the other or someone complains about both sides all I hear is whine. The whine class is who I despise.

Posted by: Cruzinator at July 09, 2015 04:57 PM (4SgJh)

114 Good one, Ace!

I nominate Ace for President! He could rename AF-1 to Wookiee-1!

Posted by: Chi-Town Jerry at July 09, 2015 04:57 PM (so+oy)

115 Ace, you sound like a cranky blue-blood.

Posted by: Tonic Dog at July 09, 2015 04:57 PM (X/+QT)

116 Ace, you sound like a cranky red-blood.

Posted by: Tonic Dog at July 09, 2015 04:57 PM (X/+QT)

117 This class split is in no way confined to the GOP, but Ace is otherwise essentially correct. --
well if we cannot unite, can we divide them?

Posted by: Buzzsaw90 at July 09, 2015 04:57 PM (/eTPT)

118 Hey Tammy!

You and me both.

Posted by: SMFH at it all at July 09, 2015 04:57 PM (kmtse)

119 I won't compromise on building a Fence on the Southern border before any amnesty or path to citizenship takes place.

I won't compromise on any more inroads on the 2nd amendment.

I won't compromise on the enforcement of the immigration laws especially punishment for those hiring illegals.

I won't compromise on the protection/alliance with Israel.

I could go more but those are my top five and in degree of hardness.

Yee Haw all you fancy pants college pukes out there.

Posted by: Bitter Clinger and All That at July 09, 2015 04:58 PM (x3GpS)

120

A fucking men

Over the 4th I was at thing with Comfortable Class Republicans

they were saying they really think there should be immigration reform and they didnt see what the big deal was and how they loathed Trump

these are Republicans mind you

I explained to them that what they didnt fully understand is that working class people are losing jobs, and seeing their schools and nighborhoods fundamentally change over night, and no one speaks for them

that they feel disenfranchised and its because they are

and that thier jobs, homes and schools were not being threatened by mass immigration so they dont see it

and yet when the working class family complains about the changes in their community

schools

crime

neighborhoods

they get called racist, and their reasonable rational concerns cannot even be discussed

yet the concerns of the illegal immigrants are discussed to the exclusion of everybody else

they really had not seen it that way

Posted by: thunderb at July 09, 2015 04:58 PM (zOTsN)

121 Or throw gas on the fire
Posted by: wrg500 at July 09, 2015 04:56 PM (sWgE+

Gas doesn't burn, it explodes

Posted by: Misanthropic Humanitarian at July 09, 2015 04:58 PM (9mTYi)

122 We need you to start discussion on how we compromise. Would love to see some specifics even if it starts another argument, we're already arguing, maybe we can argue towards a solution?

Posted by: scottl at July 09, 2015 04:58 PM (M7b1o)

123 Help us Zombie Lee Atwater, you're our only hope.

Posted by: Grump928(c) Person of Pallor at July 09, 2015 04:58 PM (evdj2)

124 Gotta have class to have a class war, chappies.

*adjusts monocle, winds pocket watch, checks spats*

The Comfortable Upper Middle Class has escapees from the lower-middle and middle classes who camouflage their origins by adopting the PC pieties of the Prius set much like in former years they affected mid-Atlantic accents. I've seen it in some of my acquaintances.

Posted by: All Hail Eris, Literate Savage at July 09, 2015 04:58 PM (jR7Wy)

125 I've already bought the nomination, so good luck you working class plebs.

Posted by: Jeb Bush at July 09, 2015 04:58 PM (Tj+s6)

126 I hate that the White Working Class is so comfortable being what I would term "crude," and in fact seems to take a backwards-ass pride in being crude of mind and crude of expression.

--Am I in Bizarro World? Where am I?

Posted by: logprof at July 09, 2015 04:58 PM (gcE+A)

127
I read the whole thing.

What am I becoming?

Posted by: eleven at July 09, 2015 04:58 PM (IPzoI)

128
What pisses me off is the Left is always able to mend these differences and get most of what they want. Our side simply can't.
Posted by: McAdams

The Democrats have had a fairly stable coalition since FDR: lefty longhairs, crony capitalists and ethnics*. The Republicans were the business owners, professionals and aspirational middle class.

Over time, the monied elites seem to flit from one team or the other, depending on who's winning -- and often it seems pure fashion.

Don't know how you hold on to a group so wedded to politics as a trendy social display.

*black participation gets a little involved because of Jim Crow, but work with me here.

Posted by: Laurie David's Cervix at July 09, 2015 04:58 PM (kdS6q)

129 "Personally, and I recommend all of you do the same thing - draw a list of items that you will NOT compromise on."

1. Rule of Law (including Constitutional originalism, government accountability and deregulation - laws made by elected officials, not bureaucrats).

2. Fiscal responsibility - require balanced budgets, drastically cut spending, cut taxes and simplify the tax code.

3. National sovereignty and national interest over globalization, multiculturalism, nation-building and amnesty.

Posted by: SocietyIs2Blame at July 09, 2015 04:58 PM (WIOql)

130 I nominate Ace for President! He could rename AF-1 to Wookiee-1!
Posted by: Chi-Town Jerry at July 09, 2015 04:57 PM (so+oy

No executive orders before 1PM EST

Posted by: Misanthropic Humanitarian at July 09, 2015 04:58 PM (9mTYi)

131 Posted by: Bigby's One Hand Clapping at July 09, 2015 04:56 PM (3ZtZW)

You always have the best comments.

Posted by: Tammy al-Thor at July 09, 2015 04:59 PM (j0kTB)

132 Normally I understand ACE....but I don't get who he is talking about in the "white working class"?

Who are these people, and what is his complaint about them?

Will someone please explain? Thx

Posted by: pam at July 09, 2015 04:59 PM (EAZ7y)

133 And seriously.. I've been saying this shit for years.. Why can't we find some basic tenets to agree upon? Smaller, less intrusive government. Policies to grow the economy.. with a populist bent, not one that rewards the donor class who really runs everything?

Posted by: Chi-Town Jerry at July 09, 2015 04:59 PM (so+oy)

134 "....embarrassing them in front of their liberal friends."

Fuck.

Don't you just hate it when that happens?

Posted by: jwest at July 09, 2015 05:00 PM (9ZZd+)

135 Gas doesn't burn, it explodes

Posted by: Misanthropic Humanitarian at July 09, 2015 04:58 PM (9mTYi)

*slyly smiles*

Posted by: wrg500 at July 09, 2015 05:00 PM (sWgE+)

136 The Republicans have always been the party of the owners and managers.

Who are the owners and managers in Blue states?
Do they bus in Republicans?

Posted by: rickb223 at July 09, 2015 05:00 PM (5fXFG)

137 No executive orders before 1PM EST

Bannings will be with Extreme Prejudice.

Posted by: Grump928(c) Person of Pallor at July 09, 2015 05:00 PM (evdj2)

138 Will someone please explain? Thx
Posted by: pam at July 09, 2015 04:59 PM (EAZ7y)

"blue collar"

"rural"

"not from the Acela corridor and/or certain parts of CA"

"did not go to college"

....

Posted by: mynewhandle at July 09, 2015 05:00 PM (AkOaV)

139 This is one of the stupidest things ace has ever written.

The war in the GOP is between conservatives and RINOs and both of those groups are spread across all classes.

This is akin to the war in the 1990s between the moderates and the radical left. And the radical left wiped the floor with the moderates.

So far indications are that the RINOs are wiping the floor with the conservatives, even though conservatives surely outnumber RINOs 2 or 3 to 1 or more. It goes to show you the absolute impoverishment of the conservative movement.

Conservatives need to take a page from the radical left. They waited until they had the slightest upper hand and then smashed all opposition. That is how they work in all organizations they control, they are completely ruthless when assuming power.

Posted by: Ken at July 09, 2015 05:00 PM (LXJ1e)

140 Having said that and I will take some heat probably. But one of the reasons that Walker interests me is that he's not some rich guy or a kid born with a silver spoon. (Not that there's anything wrong with that) But, I do believe he can connect with many across the classes that Ace mentions. And as an added bonus, he drives the left bat shit crazy!

Posted by: Minnfidel at July 09, 2015 05:01 PM (cYXYO)

141 Here is the biggest difference between Working Class Whites and Professional Class Whites: Working Class Whites tend to join the military, usually as enlisted, but with some officers in the mix. Take me, for instance. First officer in my family, with a dad who was an enlisted Army paratrooper and two brothers who were enlisted (one Army paratrooper, one Marine recon). All of my dad's uncles were enlisted as well. Military service is seen as a duty that any red-blooded American man should strive to carry out.

Comfortable Class Whites, on the other hand, avoid the military if at all possible. There might be an officer or two in the family tree (usually Air Force or Navy), but for the most part, that kind of thing is for the hoi polloi, not the Comfortable Class Whites. Take my mom's family, for instance. They have to go back to the friggin' Civil War to find any men who served in the U.S. military. And it will be another 100 years or so before the next one, if I had to place any bets. For this crowd (and they are conservative, just ask them), military service is something to admire...from afar. But definitely not an activity for them or their children. That would be simply dreadful.

Posted by: Pave Low John at July 09, 2015 05:01 PM (b5yHT)

142 Not one of your best, Ace, I have to say. Overgeneralization, trying hard to cram people into one of only two boxes. Might need to think this through a little more. I don't see myself as neatly fitting into either of those two categories (but then I don't really self-identify as a member of the GOP). I'll let this one percolate for a while and see if it starts to make more sense. Perhaps it's the underlying notion of "us" versus "them" that needs to be explored. I often wonder when reading comments here who "us" is and who "them" is.

Posted by: Muldoon, a solid man no longer licking donuts at July 09, 2015 05:01 PM (NeFrd)

143 Longbow!

45ACP!!!

Posted by: wrg500 at July 09, 2015 04:50 PM (sWgE+)

105mm howitzer.
I win!!!

Posted by: Bitter Clinger and All That at July 09, 2015 05:01 PM (x3GpS)

144 Sometimes you can analyze the holy hell out of something and be entirely wrong. For example 100% of people claim that if they found a $10 bill lying on the ground they would turn it in at a 'lost and found' only scant feet away. Actual recorded evidence proves they don't.

People lie. They stick their nose up in the air and look down on you while slipping somebody else's 10 spot in their pocket.

So I don't have much respect for the 'comfortable class' -- nor do I trust anyones crystal ball predicting what they will do. Trump is the wild card -- the actor looking for the lead roll in the biggest production.

We had an actor in the White House before.

Posted by: rip van se pa moron at July 09, 2015 05:01 PM (xQX/f)

145 But it is really about conservatives who want the
GOP to walk the talk, and the squishy country club types who don't care
what happens as long as they get their share of the power pie.

Posted by: exdem13

You make a mistake calling them "squishy country club types". A lot of them are hard-working middle and upper mid-level managers, professionals that work very hard 60-70 hours a week, and are anything but squishy. But they will not vote or concern themselves with social conservative issues, which they collectively see as "losing issues", and hence the cultural divide.

I consider myself something of a wishy-washy (squishy) Socon, and have to admit that we are losing or have LOST almost all the Socon issues. It's a slow retreat on everything, from here on out.

I hope we can hold the line on Man-boy love and pedophilia, but hey, give it another 20 years, and people will be fucking chimps.

Posted by: Bossy Conservative....outlaw in America at July 09, 2015 05:02 PM (RFeQD)

146
Will someone please explain? Thx
Posted by: pam at July 09, 2015 04:59 PM (EAZ7y)

Iceberg vs. Arugula.

Posted by: Bandersnatch at July 09, 2015 05:02 PM (JtwS4)

147 Ace,

I donate to this blog, I read it every day, I respect your opinions, and I think you are a genius writer and fucking hilarious.

One question - do you ever question your worldview based on where you grew up? Now I'm assuming that the environs was in the NE, urban environment.

The reason that I ask this is that even your criticism of the set up is put in Marxist language. Where you go wrong is that you are assuming things unknowingly by how your environment shaped your worldview.

We were dirt poor where I grew up. You couldn't drink the water. I went to college with the grandsons of the captains of industry, still dirt poor, I had to walk for two miles to work because I didn't have a car at first. Think Rockefeller. I am now what one would be considered roughly a 1%er.

Upper middle class voters who are white are OVERWHELMINGLY democrats. Look at the voting patterns. Dems get the ghettos and the ritzy white areas.

So you are starting with a false premise. Likewise, I'm not sure what circles you hang around, but the Donald is not taken as much of a serious candidate, but of the upper middle class whites they'd for sure vote for him over Hillary.

They ran a story that Trump "may keep" his Hollywood star. Think hard on that. I resent anyone saying they're tired of this war. It has just hit full on and we owe it to the memory of Andrew Breitbart, and all our progeny and frankly our own fucking dignity to live by his credo: Fuck you. War.

We haven't even been on the field. I will not denigrate someone who steps on the field to actually fight what I view as one of three or four TRANSFORMATIONAL issues for this nation.

And a lot of others won't either. That's why Trump is number one right now. Truth is treason in an empire of lies.

And the people know it. We need not speculate what this "class" or "group" will do. Fight the fucking fight and let the chips fall where they may. I'm fine as Trump being President.

For fuck's sake, we have had an enemy of the US as Pres for 7 fucking years now.

Posted by: prescient11 at July 09, 2015 05:02 PM (Au7Z/)

148 133 And seriously.. I've been saying this shit for years.. Why can't we find some basic tenets to agree upon? Smaller, less intrusive government. Policies to grow the economy.. with a populist bent, not one that rewards the donor class who really runs everything?
Posted by: Chi-Town Jerry at July 09, 2015 04:59 PM (so+oy)

Media.

They're from the "class" (if we're going all marxist here and talking about classes) that ace has called the 'comfortable class'.

And they stoke this fire of 'class resentment', oh, every day.

Posted by: mynewhandle at July 09, 2015 05:02 PM (AkOaV)

149 But I find all this "class" talk -- yes -- un-American. We still have a fluid society. Race/class/gender is THEIR bag.

I won't compromise on sovereignty - national or personal.

Posted by: All Hail Eris, Literate Savage at July 09, 2015 05:02 PM (jR7Wy)

150 I think candidates recognize this as they always offer their blue collar bonafides to prove that they can identify with the hicks and the schmoos.
Good luck with the Jeb.

Posted by: Buzzsaw90 at July 09, 2015 05:02 PM (/eTPT)

151 Posted by: logprof at July 09, 2015 04:58 PM (gcE+A)

I thought it was just me. Kind of an odd thing to think, given the make up of comments on this here this smart mil blog, not to mention the founder's hysterical Twitter feed .

Posted by: Tammy al-Thor at July 09, 2015 05:02 PM (j0kTB)

152 >>>ace, what do you consider yourself? Just curious both, neither, hate both

============

Ace is Category X. He probably started Middle-ish, probablyUpper Middle but fallen. You'd look for indicators like bowling or habits of speech to determine origins, which is why my guess.

Category X is drawn from all classes and does self-directed work for the most part. Athletes and porn stars and bloggers and the more intelligent journalists and authors are all Category X.

Posted by: Bigby's One Hand Clapping at July 09, 2015 05:02 PM (3ZtZW)

153 Longbow!

45ACP!!!

Posted by: wrg500 at July 09, 2015 04:50 PM (sWgE+)

105mm howitzer.
I win!!!

Posted by: Bitter Clinger and All That

Ahem.

Posted by: W88 at July 09, 2015 05:02 PM (evdj2)

154 hubby and I comfortable class white

both military officers

like unicorns

Posted by: thunderb at July 09, 2015 05:03 PM (zOTsN)

155 The difference between the Dems and the GOP is that the Dems pretend to be conservative, but after elected will line up behind Nancy Pelosi et al once in office. No on --- no one --- believed Obama didn't support SSM (or other Lefty causes), they knew he was saying what needed to be said to get elected.

On the other hand, the GOP candidates pretend to be conservative to get elected, and then once in office they...wait....OK, no difference, they're just not as radical, they're more 'blue dog Dems' than any Dems.

Never mind.

Posted by: Lizzy at July 09, 2015 05:03 PM (NOIQH)

156 And now Imma go

Night

Posted by: Bigby's One Hand Clapping at July 09, 2015 05:03 PM (3ZtZW)

157 I was enjoying the read, Ace, right up until the part where it says the white working class can't have their way and we have to vote for Romneycare and whoever the white upperclass wants to establish as the acceptable candidate and have to give up who we want.

Isn't that how it always is, though? Palin? forget it, the blogosphere rips her apart. Pizza man, no, we'll take him out next....dog gone you peons, don't you get it, you will vote for who I tell you to vote for.

Posted by: doug at July 09, 2015 05:04 PM (IYEs/)

158 >>>The reason that I ask this is that even your criticism of the set up is put in Marxist language. Where you go wrong is that you are assuming things unknowingly by how your environment shaped your worldview.

yes I have said on numerous occasions that I despise Communism but have found one of their ideas -- the idea that classes are constantly fighting each other and trying to gain advantage over each other -- true and useful for analysis.

People who say "there's no such thing as class" are just kidding themselves.

Posted by: ace at July 09, 2015 05:04 PM (bhepQ)

159 Part of the problem to is the Culture War benefited conservatives up until recently.

Upper class whites that may not have been on board with things like prayer in school or abortion restrictions sort of looked the other way to keep their taxes low while working class whites that were maybe more Reagan Democrats went Republican over cultural issues.

I feel like the last gasp of this was 2004 with Bush wanting a Constitutional Amendment banning gay marriage.

Now it seems flipped and the Left plays out the Culture War for all it's worth because it benefits them with Millenials that think the most important issue on Earth is the fraction of a percent of gays that want a marriage certificate, never mind they're 26 with a college degree and working at StarBucks and have no career prospects. All that matters is the rainbow flag on your FaceBook page.

I don't know how to fix it, but these issues have really sucked up all the oxygen and they really are dumb issues that mean nothing when it comes to real challenges.

Posted by: McAdams at July 09, 2015 05:04 PM (rE2PN)

160 I guess I am lost.

All I am wanting border security, strong national defense, fiscal sanity, individual liberty, and a candidate that does more than merely pay lip service to these desires. I come from WCW and am comfortably CCW and can and like to relate to both. But I don't think that any of those are exclusive domains of the WCW or CCW.

What I am seeing is the GOPe actions repeatedly making a mockery of my desires, after making promises to the contrary.

How is a charlatan putting forward these ideas in un-nuanced fashion (say WCW, aggressive-agressive), and incidentally appealing to WCW and CCW who hold those desires alike, a bad thing, when nobody else will?

I guess I just don't see the class war.

Posted by: rebel flounder at July 09, 2015 05:04 PM (Vf5rR)

161 If the GOP wants to be, forever, the party of only working class whites and married women, fine,

This is a major exception I have to take with this otherwise rather accurate observation. The GOP poses itself as the party of working class whites and married women, but when the rubber hits the road, that goes out the window. Folks are twigging to the fact they've been getting cheated and lied to and the results are predictable. Fault: MUCH more largely to Comfortable Class.

(Also I'm uncomfortable with viewing these things in class terms, but it's a useful simplification at times so I'm going to leave that be.)

Posted by: Brother Cavil, down with Eph 6:12-13 at July 09, 2015 05:04 PM (2l5vw)

162 Posted by: prescient11 at July 09, 2015 05:02 PM (Au7Z/)

I don't know where ace is from, but yes, I absolutely see a lot of parallels to his thinking and mine before I moved around.

He has a very Westchester / Bergen/ Fairfield County outlook on the world.

Which is fine.

But I think growing up in those surroundings you don't realize how... bizarre... that part of the world is compared with the rest of the country and it tends to shape your views on things a little differently than it otherwise might.

Posted by: mynewhandle at July 09, 2015 05:04 PM (AkOaV)

163 Women managers seem to think they are in high school and are now the cool girls. They manage by clique. I left the company I work for because the woman manager treated me like a child. Came back after she left/got the boot. New male manager has been great.

Posted by: Notsothoreau at July 09, 2015 05:04 PM (Lqy/e)

164 Shorter Ace: I HATE YOU ALL. Please join my party!

Posted by: tsj017 at July 09, 2015 05:05 PM (MX3Dh)

165 "All we need to do is forge compromises between each other that we can mutually live with and then go in a united front to face the real enemy."
-----------------------

All very true, but the devil is in the details and conservatives are masters at becoming bogged down by those. It is what has lead to schisms in churches. We're talking 'Color of the carpet' issues.

All of the bickering/talk in the world gets us nowhere until we recognize that we must unite, or hang separately.

Limbaugh is right (no pun) when he says that anyone who positively articulates Conservative values will find an audience. Would that it were only that simple.

The country, or Republicans, can't 'find' that person, that person must evolve all on their own, having the guts and experience to get the job done. Not an easy thing to do given the prevailing social and media climate.

If it is Ace's point, he is correct that we in the trenches are not doing our part. My personal belief is that we have failed (among other things) to hold the people we have elected personally responsible for their malleability.

That, of course, requires time and effort. Something the Left seems to have in abundance, and ourselves a paucity. I do not say that in order to be negative, but rather to point out that we need to get off the dime..., and here's the thing, it isn't/will not be easy or fun.

I am rather afraid that most of us do not feel the strength of our convictions beyond bitching and complaining, and that is not enough to change things.

Posted by: Mike Hammer, etc., etc. at July 09, 2015 05:05 PM (9mTYi)

166 Posted by: prescient11 at July 09, 2015 05:02 PM (Au7Z/)

Golfclap, tip of hat, and a hearty AMEN from the (White Working Class) Peanut Gallery.

Posted by: Tammy al-Thor at July 09, 2015 05:05 PM (j0kTB)

167 138 Will someone please explain? Thx
Posted by: pam at July 09, 2015 04:59 PM (EAZ7y)

"blue collar"

"rural"

"not from the Acela corridor and/or certain parts of CA"

"did not go to college"

....
Posted by: mynewhandle at July 09, 2015 05:00 PM (AkOaV

White collar
Rural
Flyover state
Some college
Jr. College degree.

Guess I am who I am

Posted by: Misanthropic Humanitarian at July 09, 2015 05:05 PM (9mTYi)

168 Ace mailed it in because of the Lahood win. I don't know where I fit in in his world of war within the GOP but I'm basically down to fiscal responsibility and sovereignty as my core issues. Right now Trump is the only expressing my views on illegals and he seems to understand money better than the other candidates.

I still with Cruz and Walker the most and Jeb! is not on my list. He said he didn't need my vote and I'll oblige him by with holding it.

Posted by: DanMan at July 09, 2015 05:05 PM (RusNE)

169 I nominate Ace for President! He could rename AF-1 to Wookiee-1!
--
his middle name will finally be revealed.
I've got $20 on Baxter

Posted by: Buzzsaw90 at July 09, 2015 05:05 PM (/eTPT)

170 If we were in prison together I would totally go gay for Ace.

Posted by: I. Dindoo Nuffin at July 09, 2015 05:05 PM (5fSr7)

171 So basically:

Professionals: Thurston Howell III
Working class: Cletus from The Simpsons

Man I hate those guys and the way they embody certain stereotypes!

Posted by: Gristle Encased Head at July 09, 2015 05:05 PM (1RNgT)

172 I'd say it's the rights inability to engage the left in the same tactics as they engage us in that's the problem. We need to lie. We need to cheat. More importantly we need to make the ourselves so hateful of the left that we would crawl over broken glass to get them out of power using any means necessary.

It's what they think and do of us. We are still playing tball. Do you think the average left wing voter cares about any policy, anti war vote, or anything? Lol, no they just hate us.

Posted by: Mr Pink at July 09, 2015 05:06 PM (5nV+Q)

173 Ace said: the left doesn't have this problem because it's just accepted that the White Comfortable Class will get to tell the blacks, the working class, etc. what's what.

It's a funny thing -- the Party of the People doesn't have this problem because the Comfortable Class is so unchallengedly on top.

While you are correct in terms of class, there are still exploitable fault-lines in the Democratic party. They just lie along different axes. Republicans are just unwilling to attack them -- I was very disappointed in Romney for this.

For example, set the Teacher's Union against everyone else. The case is clear, pit the good of the union who defends corrupt teachers and forwards itself against all those with children and who pay taxes. Tons of ridiculous examples to draw from; many conservative solutions to the education problem.

This is a nice argument as it touches both WCW and much of the upwardly mobile.

Posted by: Uriah Heep at July 09, 2015 05:06 PM (ZMZ2g)

174 I'm for whatever class wants to cut taxes, cut spending, limit abortions, and basically gets out of my way.

Posted by: SH at July 09, 2015 05:06 PM (gmeXX)

175 >>>Where you go wrong is that you are assuming things unknowingly by how your environment shaped your worldview.

and of course people's thinking IS shaped by where they grew up and how they were raised and what the dominant mores of that area were.

People in NYC think that abortion is just birth control. People in west texas do not.

You don't think that people are mostly just accepting the dominant, path-of-least-resistance thinking most of the time?

What fraction of the population would you say really thinks for itself, rather than simply accepting the stream-we-swim-in easy local consensus?

I would say that 10% of the population thinks mostly for itself (and even that fraction is still influenced by the dominant thought in the area they grew up in).

What fraction would you say?

Posted by: ace at July 09, 2015 05:07 PM (bhepQ)

176 Great column. I agree with the description of the camps however I see Brat beating Cantor as the ascendance of the working class and I want it to continue, maybe with Cruz instead of Trump. Lets also acknowledge that there are non-white natural conservatives that are tired of the PC garbage too. This economy sucks. That's a lot of potential unhappy voters.

Posted by: Joe at July 09, 2015 05:07 PM (9jlkg)

177 I'm a member of the comfortable class and I have no ill will towards the working class. I respect the working class since they do a lot of shitty jobs I'd hate to do.

Posted by: HUCK / AKIN 2016 at July 09, 2015 05:07 PM (0LHZx)

178 Uh, did I say that out loud?

Posted by: I. Dindoo Nuffin at July 09, 2015 05:07 PM (5fSr7)

179 I am sick of ant-white hate, especially from the so-called right.

Posted by: Baldy at July 09, 2015 05:07 PM (sEXjW)

180 >>>While you are correct in terms of class, there are still exploitable fault-lines in the Democratic party. They just lie along different axes. Republicans are just unwilling to attack them -- I was very disappointed in Romney for this.

For example, set the Teacher's Union against everyone else. The case is clear, pit the good of the union who defends corrupt teachers and forwards itself against all those with children and who pay taxes. Tons of ridiculous examples to draw from; many conservative solutions to the education problem.

This is a nice argument as it touches both WCW and much of the upwardly mobile.

...

preaching to the choir, brother.

Posted by: ace at July 09, 2015 05:07 PM (bhepQ)

181 Washington State had a bipartisan deal that instituted domestic partnership and it was passed in both houses. It was bipartisan due to an agreement in the Senate GOP caucus that gay marriage was off the table. Sure enough, gay marriage passed next biennium on a bipartisan basis because GOPe types decided it was time and their votes were needed.
Hard to compromise when a dirk is stuck up your backside.
AKA: Frak you, next compromise.

Posted by: Man from Wazzustan at July 09, 2015 05:07 PM (O1qFw)

182 I'm for whatever class wants to cut taxes, cut spending, limit abortions, and basically gets out of my way.

----

I guess that is why Texas suits me.

Posted by: SH at July 09, 2015 05:08 PM (gmeXX)

183 Iceberg vs. Arugula.
Posted by: Bandersnatch at July 09, 2015 05:02 PM (JtwS4)
---
Arugula is doomed

Posted by: Zombie Titanic at July 09, 2015 05:08 PM (/eTPT)

184
In before the Ewok Movie Review jok......

Ahhhh, shit.

Posted by: IllTemperedCur at July 09, 2015 05:08 PM (egLDQ)

185 I don't know how to fix it, but these issues have really sucked up all the oxygen and they really are dumb issues that mean nothing when it comes to real challenges.
Posted by: McAdams
-----------------------------------

That is not an accident.

Posted by: Mike Hammer, etc., etc. at July 09, 2015 05:08 PM (9mTYi)

186 Longbow!

Posted by: Drill_Thrawl

Carpet!

Posted by: Moderate Salami at July 09, 2015 05:08 PM (/Ho8c)

187 give it another 20 years, and people will be fucking chimps.

I really hope it isn't that long.

Posted by: The Chicken at July 09, 2015 05:08 PM (ZbV+0)

188 151 Posted by: logprof at July 09, 2015 04:58 PM (gcE+A)

I thought it was just me. Kind of an odd thing to think, given the make up of comments on this here this smart mil blog, not to mention the founder's hysterical Twitter feed .
Posted by: Tammy al-Thor at July 09, 2015 05:02 PM (j0kTB)

--The ONT is overwhelmingly Working Class White, I suppose.

Posted by: logprof at July 09, 2015 05:08 PM (gcE+A)

189 You know by simply getting people to hate us they don't even have to send out marching orders to cheat and use the IRS to target us?

They do it gladly on their own. Unless we do it we are fucked.

Posted by: Mr Pink at July 09, 2015 05:09 PM (5nV+Q)

190 "And seriously.. I've been saying this shit for years.. Why can't we find
some basic tenets to agree upon? Smaller, less intrusive government.
Policies to grow the economy.. with a populist bent, not one that
rewards the donor class who really runs everything?"

Pretty much what I said above. The Uniparty, Right and Left, doesn't want smaller government, it wants to run Big Government to its own advantage.

They don't want an independent middle class of autonomous small business owners who have their own savings and health plans because a) competition and b) resistance to social engineering.

They don't want privatized education because a) and b) also apply to their kids vs. your kids just like they do in business.

The reason I've come to support a third (and even a fourth) party movement is that interests have re-aligned from the old Right-Left coalitions. White working class Democrats (Reagan Dems) have more in common with the Tea Party than the party of Obama, Clinton and Sanders. Minorities who don't want to play identity politics and who buy into the American ideal are likewise best served by realignment. Any American who thinks our government should serve our interests above those of other countries, friend or foe, is best served by realignment.

Posted by: SocietyIs2Blame at July 09, 2015 05:09 PM (WIOql)

191 Maybe the Comfortable Class is too silly about these things (I do think they are pretty silly), but that's the fact. He has said the sort of things no member of the Comfortable Class will associate himself with, ever -- remember, they are almost as PC as the left - and hence this is a losing candidacy.

One thing I've noticed, lately, is Trump saying "that is not what they said/say to me in private" when a republican or conservative comes out against him on some topic.

He's one to talk, as Trump is the master at playing both sides of the fence, but he is sure finding out who his "friends" are at this point.

Posted by: artisanal 'ette at July 09, 2015 05:09 PM (qCMvj)

192 I guess I just don't see the class war.
Posted by: rebel flounder at July 09, 2015 05:04 PM (Vf5rR)

Well, for one thing, your true Comfortable Class tend to favor amnesty for Dreamers and other "compassionate conservatism" type things.

It's not so much a class war per se, as different opinions based on class, and how each class goes through life.

Posted by: Tammy al-Thor at July 09, 2015 05:09 PM (j0kTB)

193 I did not know that there were ONLY two types of people who are conservative. I am amazed, I figured there were oh, seven.

Most of the tension is between regions. We are no longer a nation. We are a civil war with only one flag and no artillery.

This is not politics - this is target identification time. It is not possible for America to "go on". It already "went off".
It is dead. We are in a battlefield sizing up who we are going to have to deal with when the balloon goes up.

Regions are going to split further - we've already split a lot. We are not "classes" - we are Peoples.

That's my take.

Posted by: Inspector Cussword at July 09, 2015 05:09 PM (ukTrJ)

194 177 I'm a member of the comfortable class and I have no ill will towards the working class. I respect the working class since they do a lot of shitty jobs I'd hate to do.

Posted by: HUCK / AKIN 2016 at July 09, 2015 05:07 PM (0LHZx

Fuck you, you are an asshole and a liar Moo Moo

Posted by: Misanthropic Humanitarian at July 09, 2015 05:09 PM (9mTYi)

195 And after we gave the Comfortable Class power in Washington again last year, did we the Working Class change OUR agenda? Did we suddenly say "Oh wait, let's not do what we campaigned on, what we made our little $25 donations for, what we spent hours walking neighborhoods for?"

No, we didn't say that. We're still here, holding the same damn agendas we worked hard for in in 2010 and 2014. And now illegal aliens are taking our jobs and our healthcare premiums are rising and the Comfortable Class is back to sneer at us.

And now someone is saying there's equal blame on both sides?

WTF? WTF? WTF?

Posted by: saltlick at July 09, 2015 05:09 PM (is1QN)

196 When a Party decides that it doesn't want to advance my interests, I lose interest in advancing theirs. I think that's rational and fair.

Posted by: Grump928(c) at July 09, 2015 05:09 PM (evdj2)

197
178 -- I think you said you wanted ace's pooter.

Posted by: eleven at July 09, 2015 05:09 PM (IPzoI)

198 People who say "there's no such thing as class" are just kidding themselves.

Posted by: ace at July 09, 2015 05:04 PM (bhepQ)

Well, I don't have any!!!

*wait a minute*

Posted by: Bitter Clinger and All That at July 09, 2015 05:10 PM (x3GpS)

199
Our family holds to all the virtues that are derided these days--marriage between man and woman, working hard to make a better life for us and our kids, treating all as we wish to be treated--the entire litany.

I have no idea nor do I care what "class" this puts me in.

That said, this was another fascinating bit of reading.

Posted by: irongrampa at July 09, 2015 05:10 PM (jeCnD)

200 Professionals: Thurston Howell III
Working class: Cletus from The Simpsons

Man I hate those guys and the way they embody certain stereotypes!
Posted by: Gristle Encased Head at July 09, 2015 05:05 PM (1RNgT)

________

Those are both wrong.

Thurston Howell didn't work a day in his life and neither does Cletus.

To me working class is the guy working in a warehouse or steel mill or something like that. There's a difference between working class and White Trash, yet the two seem to get mixed up all the time.

Posted by: HUCK / AKIN 2016 at July 09, 2015 05:10 PM (0LHZx)

201 For fuck's sake, we have had an enemy of the US as Pres for 7 fucking years now.

Posted by: prescient11 at July 09, 2015 05:02 PM (Au7Z/)

Sorry, Ace. prescient11 wins the thread.

Posted by: rebel flounder at July 09, 2015 05:10 PM (Vf5rR)

202 Just because there is "such a thing" as "Class" doesn't mean it has to be determinative in any way. Money is all you're talking about anyway, not the archaic usage of "Classes". Like family lines and inherited Estates, old money. 50 Cent has "High class-status" these days. So does Miley Cyrus. These are not classy people.

Posted by: LincolnTf at July 09, 2015 05:10 PM (2cS/G)

203 Posted by: ace at July 09, 2015 05:04 PM (bhepQ)

Yes. Marx had some insights.

So did Nietzsche. The "is" parts being all good, I'm not a huge fan of the "ought" parts derived from either.

Your part about Marx is well taken, but you have to change him somewhere. Otherwise you're left with what you got here: a prelude to unending class warfare where the "working class" (proletariat) overthrough the "comfortable class" (bourgeoisie).

A more flexible class system (whereby one can move between classes depending on things like effort) is one way to this. That's what the US *had*. FDR fucked a bunch of that up to be sure.

The problem is, having tasted the joy of using the leviathan to crush your rival class (rather than aspiring to move between the classes) neither side is willing to give it up.

Posted by: tsrblke, PhD(c) rogue bioethicst at July 09, 2015 05:10 PM (s92xH)

204 #138, ok, so what is so WRONG about white working class Republicans??? (I assume ACE is talking about the GOP)

I don't get it. I don't see them on TV, writing op-eds in newspapers or blogs, I don't see them protesting, burning down towns......nothing.

What do they do that is so bad?

Posted by: pam at July 09, 2015 05:10 PM (EAZ7y)

205 Posted by: SH at July 09, 2015 05:06 PM (gmeXX)

This. And a couple others.

Posted by: Golfman at July 09, 2015 05:10 PM (7IO+y)

206 Ross Perot was a thing in 1992 because there was a large part of the electorate that was sick to death of both parties being complicit in the ruin of our country. I supported Perot because I had completely lost faith in the D & R party. I did NOT want Clinton. I also did NOT want Bush. Bush's popularity went from 90% to 35% for good reason, mainly his betrayal on taxes, his pushing for free trade agreements that we knew would send jobs out of the country, and his clear lack of concern for the American people during a recession.

Even after Perot sabotaged his own campaign, we kept supporting him because we were that desperate. Had he dropped out, we would have either written in his name or stayed home. Either way, Bush was toast, and his loss was well deserved.

23 years later, and we're in even worse shape. We've been screwed by the destructive policies of Bush, Clinton, Bush, and now Obama. The Teaparty failed. The GOP betrayed us. And the people have been "fundamentally transformed", mentally and demographically.

The only way left of saving the country is to destroy the system. Taking down the GOP will clear a space where a new party can form. Revenge against these lying, treasonous bastards is more important to me than preventing a Dem win, because at this point there truly is no difference between them.

Posted by: despair at July 09, 2015 05:11 PM (xsEwF)

207 "Once you label me you negate me" -- S�ren Kierkegaard

Posted by: Dr Spank at July 09, 2015 05:11 PM (TJCSB)

208 Speaking of crude:

http://freebeacon.com/issues/pennsylvania-man-caught-naked-in-hog-barn-drunk-on-hamms-beer/

Posted by: logprof at July 09, 2015 05:11 PM (gcE+A)

209 Get members of the Comfortable Class drunk and ask them what they think of social conservatives. There's a divide for you.

Posted by: brak at July 09, 2015 05:11 PM (Tj+s6)

210
2015=the new tribalism
and
no-one wants to get bannished.

I can dig that.
and whoever said that the left is obidient was spot on.

It seems the right has way more internal disagreements than the left

Posted by: Yo! at July 09, 2015 05:11 PM (W6iIX)

211 --The ONT is overwhelmingly Working Class White, I suppose.
Posted by: logprof at July 09, 2015 05:08 PM (gcE+A)

Well, probably, but there are doctors, dentist, lawyers, scientists and other high-falutin' types, too!

Posted by: Tammy al-Thor at July 09, 2015 05:11 PM (j0kTB)

212 >>While you are correct in terms of class, there are still exploitable fault-lines in the Democratic party. They just lie along different axes. Republicans are just unwilling to attack them -- I was very disappointed in Romney for this.

So many of the Dem's core supporters are in conflict w/one another and there for the picking.
Black churches vs. the LGBT activists
CAIR vs. Feminists
Union and tech workers vs. immigrants (legal and illegal)
And so on.

Rarely are they ever forced to choose one over the other, so none of these special interests realize the Dems only side with power, which every group gets them more in that particular situation on that particular day.

Posted by: Lizzy at July 09, 2015 05:11 PM (NOIQH)

213
But I find all this "class" talk -- yes -- un-American. We still have a fluid society. Race/class/gender is THEIR bag.

I won't compromise on sovereignty - national or personal.

I don't think it's "class" in the Marxist analysis sense. It's tribal cultural affiliation.

It would be handy if we could get over it and unite on, say, individual liberty, but tribal loyalty trumps (ahem) intellect and policy.

I'm finding it remarkable what a hotbutton class is as an issue. Yes we have a fluid society, but so many of the comments have been autobiographical as to which elements of which class each poster has experienced. It's mostly a smorgasbord and a lot of our self-identities are defined by which parts of our experience we choose to retain and polish and hone.

Posted by: Bandersnatch at July 09, 2015 05:11 PM (JtwS4)

214

Excellent post.

Posted by: artisanal 'ette at July 09, 2015 05:12 PM (qCMvj)

215 I would say that 10% of the population thinks mostly for itself (and even that fraction is still influenced by the dominant thought in the area they grew up in).

What fraction would you say?

Eh, you're probably right there.

For the record, I probably fell from the Comfortable Class to the WCW class. I know the ins and outs of both and flirted with the Adversary's way of thinking for a time; certain things I can't not see now as a result. And the disgust, much prayer needed to help with that. (The acting classes I took in school help me seem like I'm not a raving lunatic. With varying degrees of success.)

But...I'm what I guess you might call a "cultural wonk". So I'm approaching the question from a different direction...and sometimes the answers I get from one perspective clash with what I get from another.

Posted by: Brother Cavil, down with Eph 6:12-13 at July 09, 2015 05:12 PM (2l5vw)

216 As I asked before. What was the last major issue that the establishment ceded to conservatives? To me that's the real war. The establishment only pays attention to us when it's election time. Done with that. That's the real war.

Posted by: Minnfidel at July 09, 2015 05:12 PM (cYXYO)

217 >>>And now someone is saying there's equal blame on both sides?

i'll say this: When you know for a fact that Trump saying of Mexicans, "They're rapists... and some, I assume, are decent people" absolutely wigs out one side of your coalition, and you just keep saying "No, that's the RIGHT Way to say it, it's awesome!" you are in fact making the schism deeper and more personal.

You just can't pretend that you don't need the UMC votes. You do. Pretend all you like, but you need them.

They need you too, obviously.

Posted by: ace at July 09, 2015 05:12 PM (bhepQ)

218 The Working Class has been taking it in the shorts forever now. When is the Comfortable Class going to deliver? And as someone mentioned above, I'm in the CC group but have more WC attitudes. The CC wants the votes without delivering anything. They can't even defend the rule of law except after the law has been reimagined, then it's time to move on because that's the law now.

Basically what you said is the CC are liberals with slightly conservative fiscal instincts. I'll pass.

Posted by: WOPR at July 09, 2015 05:12 PM (nRvEn)

219 I just finished reading Natan Sharansky's The Case for Democracy. A lot of the problems that what you're calling the WCW have when working with the CCW to extract compromises out of the left is that our compromises stick, but theirs don't. On immigration, we should already have border enforcement--we compromised back under Reagan for them.

Much like Israel works with the US against Palestinian terrorists, and Israel turns over land and prisoners in order to get concessions that are promised but never come.

The only group on the right that really seems to be able to get their compromises working is the NRA. And they seem to be willing to scream when necessary.

A lot of compromise is possible between the two classes, but at some point the trust necessary for compromise to take place goes away--and I'd say we certainly have a lot less trust since the new congress took over.

Posted by: Stephen Price Blair at July 09, 2015 05:12 PM (J0IP0)

220 Posted by: HUCK / AKIN 2016 at July 09, 2015 05:07 PM (0LHZx

oh, moo moo.

What a moo moo thing to say.

Posted by: mynewhandle at July 09, 2015 05:12 PM (AkOaV)

221 Posted by: ace at July 09, 2015 05:07 PM (bhepQ)

I'd say 90% of conservatives think for themselves. It's like herding cats. That's the main problem with the Right. We cherish individualism.

Posted by: Cruzinator at July 09, 2015 05:12 PM (4SgJh)

222 DanMan said: Right now Trump is the only expressing my views on illegals and he seems to understand money better than the other candidates.

Trump doesn't "understand money" anywhere near as well as, say, Romney. Trump has fucked his investors and bondholders by going BK on several occasions, but tots whateverz.

Because the WCW's will defend Trump to the death and claim he has their back while the last guy was anathema. Which is explained by Ace's post above.

Logic has left the party.

Frankly, Trump is speaking to the downtrodden masses and pointing fingers. He might not be as good as orator as Obama, but he's touching the same types of inner needs and desires the respective parties desperately needed after 8 years of the other guys rule.

Posted by: Uriah Heep at July 09, 2015 05:13 PM (ZMZ2g)

223 Going to disrespectfully disagree with you on some of your assumptions, Ace.

See, I have felt that our problem is not that we have classes, per se, within our political parties. Extrapolating that such an a thing occurring is problematic, is much like saying societal stratification is a problematic thing. It's not. Hell, that sort of thing has been happening since humans formed societies. The problem is that we have a political class, period.

I read an local (San Antonio, TX) newspaper expose a number of years back, when I actually would read a newspaper, that explained what all went into simply being a contender in a local political race. It was utterly mind-blowing how how much money, wheeling-and-dealing, and local political machine appeasement had to be in place just to get a name on the ballot! And that's just a local election: city council, county commissioner, mayor. So by the time one reaches politics at the national level, it becomes nigh-impossible for a person of any stripe to stay rooted in what you deem the "working class." Pretty sure the Founding Fathers would blow a gasket to learn that this country is ruled by a de facto oligarchy.

As for the Ben Carson homosexuality quote, well, it's dishonest. The real trouble with the notion of homosexuality is not that it occurs, but that this minority of people want that behavior accepted as a societal norm. That's the endgame. Not happy until we are all gay, in whatever sense that means or makes. Still biology says one rather explicit thing about sexuality; just look at the human reproductive parts. There's your norm right there and it's been the norm for longer than humans have been around. Does homosexuality exist? Yes. Has it existed in the past? Undoubtedly. Has it ever been considered the norm for humans? Never. Yet to state that a population that is itself outside the norm (long-term incarcerated individuals) and equate their behavior to the norm to sell a point about "deviant" behavior is either ignorant or dishonest. Given Dr. Carson's educational background, I'll opt for the latter.

Posted by: Shinjinrui at July 09, 2015 05:13 PM (4SznG)

224 How is compromise even possible when we are so diametrically opposed on what to do ONCE we've won? I'm not seeing any common ground when it comes to actually governing. In fact, they seem to be causing more damage once they get in. The coalition isn't. It is one side open about what they want and expecting it to get done, while the other side pretends to agree except for when it really matters. I seriously don't think there are any common causes across the two groups.

What now?

Posted by: Todd W at July 09, 2015 05:13 PM (I0sxh)

225 "And seriously.. I've been saying this shit for years.. Why can't we find some basic tenets to agree upon? Smaller, less intrusive government.

_________

Because there are many versions of "smaller government".

Version 1: Low taxes for everyone, govt leaves me the fuck alone to live my life as I choose.

Version 2: Ban things I don't like (gays, abortion, drugs, sex on TV), keep my taxes low, but that the shit out of the next guy. Oh and make sure to never cut a dime of military spending

Posted by: HUCK / AKIN 2016 at July 09, 2015 05:13 PM (0LHZx)

226 There is no "conservative" base. There are bases which want to be "conservative" about some things, but only those which benefit them.

This.

I have seen the enemy, and he is us.

With the reddest of states send us Graham, McCain and Murkowski, it's not so much a case of the GOP betraying their conservative base because conservatives aren't their base. There just aren't enough of us to make us worth pandering to.

Posted by: Hollowpoint at July 09, 2015 05:13 PM (KUEk7)

227 There are two kinds of people. People who make false divisions and people who don't. This war between the country club and trailer trash contingents of the Republican party is simply wrong. There are plenty of people who fit into the two groups you describe, but most of us don't. I think most people here will see that about themselves. We aren't perpetually angry knuckle-draggers who revel our ignorance, nor are we privileged snobs who long for the acceptance of our liberal neighbors. Most of us are smart enough to be informed and moral enough to be offended by wrong, in whatever shape it comes. We don't punch each other in the face over disagreements, and we don't dance around a stone monolith. We also don't perch upon our balconies, eyeing the unwashed masses below while taking a snort of our sniff-boxes to mitigate the stink.

Truly an Ace-like rant, without a bit of sense to it.

Posted by: Immolate at July 09, 2015 05:13 PM (/Tq1J)

228 I used to mock liberals (and some of the Comfortable Class) on Twitter who expressed hatred of Sarah Palin by saying, "Yes, I know, how gauche. She is soooo working class."

They HATE that. Because their sociology professors told them that the Left is for the working class, even though it's quite obvious that they've completely alienated workers who aren't either uberunionized or racially committed to the Democratic party.

And even they don't like Hillary.

Both the limousine left and the Comfortable Class love to see themselves as Friends of the Working Man and I don't know why the Comfortable Class don't embrace it.

The Democrats have this division too. If we could actually regularize our immigration system, Hispanics and blacks would start to have a real power struggle. Hispanics associate themselves with hard work. As they get fully out of poverty and into the working class, there will be some hardcore resentments of the Welfare State and those who have fealty to it. There's also just a general racial animus there.

Asians are who I'm watching. When your honors kid can't get into Carnegie Mellon, but his white honors classmate can and the black or Hispanic kid in the gen ed curriculum does too, you start to think something's a little off.

Oh, and ace, I'd go with "Belmont" and "Fishtown", coined by Charles Murray.

Posted by: AmishDude at July 09, 2015 05:13 PM (b65cm)

229 >>>are we saying that Greeks and Italians and Afghans are simply more genetically gay than the average population?

saying? no.

Posted by: no you don't get to write your own vows at July 09, 2015 05:13 PM (foEhe)

230 It's not so much a class war per se, as different opinions based on class, and how each class goes through life.

Posted by: Tammy al-Thor at July 09, 2015 05:09 PM (j0kTB)

You start slicing and dicing these two classes into so many subclasses based on their individual history (true CCW, new money CCW, self-made CCW, etc.), then you pretty much have blurred all the lines in this "class war," and the construct breaks down.

Posted by: rebel flounder at July 09, 2015 05:13 PM (Vf5rR)

231 Nice marxist analysis Ace.

Posted by: gh at July 09, 2015 05:14 PM (YlqSL)

232 Get fucking Rekt Comfortable Class Whores

Posted by: Zakn at July 09, 2015 05:14 PM (wL5al)

233
Longbow!

Posted by: Drill_Thrawl

Carpet!

Posted by: Moderate Salami at July 09, 2015 05:08 PM (/Ho8c)

Pollock!

Posted by: IllTemperedCur at July 09, 2015 05:14 PM (egLDQ)

234 What a moo moo thing to say.
Posted by: mynewhandle at July 09, 2015 05:12 PM (AkOaV)

Has MOo Moo moved to Brattleboro?

Posted by: Golfman at July 09, 2015 05:14 PM (7IO+y)

235 I'm for whatever class wants to cut taxes, cut spending, limit abortions, and basically gets out of my way.

----

I guess that is why Texas suits me.

Amen.

Posted by: rickb223 at July 09, 2015 05:14 PM (5fXFG)

236 "being Ruling Class doesn't actually gain you much in an America where "poor" people have running water, electricity, heat, A/C, HDTVs, reliable cars, dishwashers, smartphones, etc. So they want to break down modern society and reinstate something like feudalism, because then the lower class will KNOW THEIR FUCKING PLACE.

Note that the end result of environmentalism is that a lot of those things would become too expensive for people outside of the Ruling Class to have. That's a feature, not a bug.

Posted by: Ian S. at July 09, 2015 04:54 PM"

^^^this^^^

"1. Rule of Law (including Constitutional originalism, government accountability and deregulation - laws made by elected officials, not bureaucrats).

2. Fiscal responsibility - require balanced budgets, drastically cut spending, cut taxes and simplify the tax code.

3. National sovereignty and national interest over globalization, multiculturalism, nation-building and amnesty.

Posted by: SocietyIs2Blame at July 09, 2015 04:58 PM"

^^^and this^^^

Gotta get busy on some other stuff, back later.
Don't bust up the furniture.

Longbow.
1911A1.
870.
Mary Ann.

Posted by: sock_rat_eez at July 09, 2015 05:15 PM (go6ud)

237 *shakes fist at white shoe-wearing GOPe*

Posted by: guy in a hardhat at July 09, 2015 05:15 PM (fUjxW)

238 What do they do that is so bad?
Posted by: pam at July 09, 2015 05:10 PM (EAZ7y)

In a nutshell, they vote for RINOs and RINOs are pretty much Dem-lite.

Posted by: Tammy al-Thor at July 09, 2015 05:15 PM (j0kTB)

239 You just can't pretend that you don't need the UMC votes. You do. Pretend all you like, but you need them.

They need you too, obviously.

Posted by: ace at July 09, 2015 05:12 PM (bhepQ)

again, ace, I don't think we're actually losing votes based on this stuff...

Let me put it this way... one of Obamas advisers (blanking on which) recently said in reference to the 2012 election that their strategy was for "base turnout" because in reality there isn't really a middle in American politics anymore (if there ever was.)

And I think that's 100% right.

I really don't think there's a big mass of people sitting around saying, 'well, Edith, I was going to vote for that Jeb! feller, but did you hear what Trump said about Mexicans? My god! I guess I have to vote for Hillary! or Bernie Sanders now."

I just... I don't see it.

Posted by: mynewhandle at July 09, 2015 05:15 PM (AkOaV)

240 The comfortable class thinks 'caring about their
country' is identical with 'caring about their class prerogatives'. The
working class whites have been playing ball, making sacrifices, watching
victories get squandered on comfortable class bullshit, being told
repeatedly 'Don't worry fellas, your time is coming'. Which means 'We'll
put on some failure theatre /just for you guys/ if we win!'

When the comfortable class 'wins', more and more it's hard to tell
the difference between that kind of victory, and a victory for the
'other side' we're supposedly fighting against. And once that sinks in,
don't be surprised if the working class whites start doing crazy things
that will just make sure the 'comfortable class' loses. Because you know
what? If you have no chance to win, making some of the people hate you
lose is at least something.

Posted by: Crude at July 09, 2015 04:43 PM (DUynq)

This. As the saying goes - with friends like these, who needs enemies?

Posted by: redbanzai at July 09, 2015 05:15 PM (OrI3J)

241 (Trump) has said the sort of things no member of the Comfortable Class will associate himself with, ever -- remember, they are almost as PC as the left - and hence this is a losing candidacy.

Thus, the best we non-comfortable class sympathizers can get is Walker, Perry, or Rubio.

But we will be made to take Bush -- and we will have to say we like it.

Posted by: Captain Oblivious at July 09, 2015 05:15 PM (hiT/m)

242 208 Speaking of crude:

http://freebeacon.com/issues/pennsylvania-man-caught-naked-in-hog-barn-drunk-on-hamms-beer/
Posted by: logprof at July 09, 2015 05:11 PM (gcE+A

So much for the land of sky blue waters

Posted by: Misanthropic Humanitarian at July 09, 2015 05:15 PM (9mTYi)

243 One decent candidate to rally around would solve this.
Posted by: West at July 09, 2015 04:40 PM (1Rgee)

Yes.

The White Working Class always has to "settle" (aka compromise) on who the Comfortable Class choose as the Republican candidate. There is really no debate. The money flows to who they want.

They came at the Tea Party like it was the devil.

Posted by: artisanal 'ette at July 09, 2015 05:15 PM (qCMvj)

244 "All we need to do is forge compromises between each other that we can
mutually live with and then go in a united front to face the real
enemy."

When you're under siege, the fifth column inside your own walls is more threatening than the "real" enemy. They are the worst enemy.

The masks have come off at an increasing pace through 2010, 2012 and 2014. We are Team GOP's enemy in name, word and deed.

Where's the compromise to be reached between conservatives and "moderates" on amnesty, Obamacare, Cromnibus/budget by crisis, runaway deficits, crony bailout capitalism, NSA, IRS, SCOTUS overreach, impeachment and on and on.

There aren't enough points of commonality to keep a party together. Realignment is necessary and overdue.

Posted by: SocietyIs2Blame at July 09, 2015 05:16 PM (WIOql)

245 Posted by: prescient11 at July 09, 2015 05:02 PM (Au7Z/)

That was good.

Posted by: HR braucht ein Bier at July 09, 2015 05:16 PM (ZKzrr)

246 "I'm for whatever class wants to cut taxes, cut spending, limit abortions, and basically gets out of my way."

________

So you want more freedom....except for the freedom to have abortions.

Lovely.

Posted by: HUCK / AKIN 2016 at July 09, 2015 05:16 PM (0LHZx)

247 This is one of the threads I am not allowed to comment on, but since you brought it up :

when Ben Carson said, accurately, that you can't say that sexuality is perfectly immutable and inborn, because straight men and women engage in opportunistic homosexuality in prison.

This is a bad example because it is a prison population. Secondly prison sex isn't about sex it is about domination. The strong bugger the weak not because the strong find the weak sexually attractive, they do it to prove to everyone else they are dominate.

The weak do not enjoy sex but they do it because if they don't they are dead

Ben Carson was not accurate in his conclusion, and his false conclusion does not extend to the general populate, and even there if is my belief that homosexual behavior, especially among men, is not about sex; it's about self gratification and domination. It certainly can not be about family and progeny, and not being about progeny it is also not about continuing the civilization.

Posted by: Cassie Frankless at July 09, 2015 05:16 PM (VCuI5)

248 >>> Just because there is "such a thing" as "Class" doesn't mean it has to be determinative in any way. Money is all you're talking about anyway, not the archaic usage of "Classes".

no i am most certainly not talking "just about money." As I've mentioned endlessly, the original class division we're talking about, between the professional/clerical middle class and skilled worker middle class (carpenters, etc) started in england.

The two classes had equivalent education and made equal money. However, they lived in different neighborhoods and had different accents.

The professional/clerical class was largely like our current professional/clerical class- mid-level managers, guys who added up columnar math in accounting houses. Not really the classic High Professions.

But they were called "Mind workers" -- unlike the "hand workers" of the middle class.

Even though a carpenter had to do a lot more mind-work to build a desk than a guy had to do mechanically copying accounting books.

The classes divided there not on income or education, but simply on white collar/blue collar grounds, and they have remained divided ever since.

even today, you will find low intermarriage rates between the two classes.

Posted by: ace at July 09, 2015 05:16 PM (bhepQ)

249 I would say that 10% of the population thinks mostly for itself (and even that fraction is still influenced by the dominant thought in the area they grew up in).

What fraction would you say?

Posted by: ace
--------

Well, that seems a rather a loose generalization, simply because the dominant thought locally will vary with the issue.

I am inclined to believe that most of my tribe entertain similar values, but every now and then some wedge issue arises. Not surprisingly, the issue(s) are usually precipitated by some external force. Again, a specialty of the Left. Putting the philosophical/moral issue aside, why are Jesse Jackson et al in SC?

Easy to answer that question, he/they are there to promote a schism between folks where there really wasn't one before.

Posted by: Mike Hammer, etc., etc. at July 09, 2015 05:16 PM (9mTYi)

250 I don't think it necessarily breaks down that cleanly. Ace isn't in either class, from the sound of it. I am a middle-class professional and don't really enjoy any of the things that the working class seems to enjoy, but in recent years I've certainly shared their resentments and anger about the attitude of the professional class in many respects. I don't have to appease the Comfortable Class (or their leftwing counterpart the New Class), because those people aren't the gatekeepers for me -- when I first ran into the wall that kept me out of the local power structure and yanked away my six-figure income, it was just good ol' boy politics by people who don't care about any of this PC shit. In flyover country, those are still your gatekeepers, not people who are embarrassed about Donald Trump.

I don't want a cultural or political hegemony of either class to "win", I want an America of 300 million people pulling in 300 million different directions, doing their own damn thing and liking whatever the hell they like.

Posted by: cjw at July 09, 2015 05:17 PM (UJ59J)

251 Longbow!

Posted by: Drill_Thrawl

Carpet!

Posted by: Moderate Salami

Pollock!

Posted by: IllTemperedCur

Mornington Crescent!

Posted by: Brother Cavil, down with Eph 6:12-13 at July 09, 2015 05:17 PM (2l5vw)

252 Lots and lots of assumptions in Ace's post.

Wide swaths of generalities.

Posted by: Misfortune & Pestilence at July 09, 2015 05:17 PM (vkf6y)

253 145
But it is really about conservatives who want the

GOP to walk the talk, and the squishy country club types who don't care

what happens as long as they get their share of the power pie.

Posted by: exdem13

You make a mistake calling them
"squishy country club types". A lot of them are hard-working middle and
upper mid-level managers, professionals that work very hard 60-70 hours a
week, and are anything but squishy. But they will not vote or concern
themselves with social conservative issues, which they collectively see
as "losing issues", and hence the cultural divide.

I consider
myself something of a wishy-washy (squishy) Socon, and have to admit
that we are losing or have LOST almost all the Socon issues. It's a slow
retreat on everything, from here on out.

I hope we can hold the
line on Man-boy love and pedophilia, but hey, give it another 20 years,
and people will be fucking chimps.
--------------
It's not just the "squish" on social issues now though, there is a "squish" on financial and legislative issues too. If the GOP wants to back off from Socon issues and concentrate on other matters, fine. But the GOP now has a solid majority, and the other conservative stances are conspicuously absent. ACA is still there, all the tax-eating social programs are still there, Obummer's lying subordinates are still working, the slow economic meltdown is still there, the MSM's narrative is still there, the progressive gutting of the Bill of Rights is still there.

I guess we conservatives of whatever income level lost the struggle for government control when Political Correctness became the vocabulary of government. That seems to be the real squish point, the line which crossed brings the MSM and the SJW crowd out to drown the debate in shrieks of "nazi", "racist", "homophobe", or whatever buzzword ends the issue and leaves the GOP playing defense instead of advancing policy matters.

Posted by: exdem13 at July 09, 2015 05:17 PM (ry4ab)

254 Posted by: prescient11 at July 09, 2015 05:02 PM (Au7Z/)

That was good.

Posted by: HR braucht

Yes.

Posted by: Moderate Salami at July 09, 2015 05:17 PM (/Ho8c)

255 Its interesting how this is also seen in the black underclass. They reject anything that has to do with being "white" ie: education, language, clothing, culture.
Posted by: Iblis at July 09, 2015 04:44 PM (9221z)

It's driven by media and culture. The CC doesn't live that way and wouldn't let their kids live that way. Get the media to clean things up and a lot of social pressure and in 20 years you would be amazed at how much things would improve.

Posted by: WOPR at July 09, 2015 05:17 PM (nRvEn)

256 Plouffe said it in his exit interview with Politico I think

he said there is no "middle" in either party

they key to elections is turnout and the key to turnout is going far far left or far far right

the middle is an illusion

Posted by: thunderb at July 09, 2015 05:17 PM (zOTsN)

257 Trump was actually not far off on his diatribe against illegals. His delivery was. He's where he is right now in the polls because many, while shaking their heads tsk tsking him silently agree.
That's short lived I think because once you peel back the layers of the Donald, he's a horrible candidate.

Posted by: Minnfidel at July 09, 2015 05:17 PM (cYXYO)

258 I hated Trump until he started talking about illegal immigration. That's how much this issue bugs me. Oh and Jeb going on Spanish language TV and promising amnesty is worthy of a fucking guillotine. How's that for crude?

Posted by: Joe at July 09, 2015 05:17 PM (9jlkg)

259 Posted by: rebel flounder at July 09, 2015 05:13 PM (Vf5rR)

Yes and no.... I honestly think this is just Ye Olde RINO vs Conservatives Fight, when all is said and done.

And that tends to break down along "class" lines as much as anything, with many overlaps, of course. Nothing is ever really cut and dried.

Posted by: Tammy al-Thor at July 09, 2015 05:17 PM (j0kTB)

260 Ace,
Nice column but it seems like you are still in the bargaining stage of accepting loss.

I personally have moved onto to the depression stage regarding our country's fate but fortunately for me as misery likes company--it appears that economically the world will be joining me in depression any time now.

Posted by: wg at July 09, 2015 05:17 PM (riCJ2)

261 anyone who thinks class is all or even mostly about money doesn't understand class.

Posted by: ace at July 09, 2015 05:17 PM (bhepQ)

262 Well, probably, but there are doctors, dentist, lawyers, scientists and other high-falutin' types, too!
Posted by: Tammy al-Thor at July 09, 2015 05:11 PM (j0kTB)

--I too have a Ph.D. I was zeroing in on "pride of being crude of thought and crude of expression."

Posted by: logprof at July 09, 2015 05:18 PM (gcE+A)

263 Now it seems flipped and the Left plays out the Culture War for all it's worth because it benefits them with Millenials that think the most important issue on Earth is the fraction of a percent of gays that want a marriage certificate...

You know what? I would be willing to give them that, if I got something in return. Something like a real turnaround on how the state screws up the family with all the various forms of welfare that encourage broken families, all the various

You want to upend the family? Okay, let's upend the way that the state deals with the family.

I mean, if they think that man-to-man marriage certificate is so important that they're foregoing the left's more serious concerns, then let's get something important in return.

I was very surprised at the confederate flag dustup--it completely blew gun control out of the water. If they are going to focus on trivialities, well, use it to our advantage.

But of course that requires trust that our leaders will get real compromises and not Oslo-style compromises.

Posted by: Stephen Price Blair at July 09, 2015 05:18 PM (J0IP0)

264 Damn, ace, you could do a whole podcast on this topic--I'd love it if you would.

I am, in fact, steeped in both sides of this debate. I was raised in Montgomery County by blue-collar Republicans during Reagan and Bush the Elder, then went to college, and medical school, and now I'm a 1% professional living in a different electorally critical state (Ohio).

And I will say that even when I was a white middle class teenager, yeah, I found a lot of the "bluntness" of my supposed ideological allies off-putting. I probably heard many more white trash and hillbilly stereotypes than I did about blacks, in a school district that was only about 3% black and maybe 7-8% minority, total.

Now, as a more engaged and educated person and voter, I still find some of the directness off-putting, but I hate the RINO squishes and leftist totalitarians far more. You will never find me flying the Stars and Bars personally, and I find it really distasteful when someone wears a T-shirt that shows that flag with the slogan, "The South Will Rise Again." To me, that's just a cotton bulletin board advertising that you're a racist. But I will also demand that the Confederate flags be displayed in appropriate locations, such as Civil War battlefields, memorials, and cemetaries. I wince at it in other locations, excepting the General Lee because I grew up watching that show dammit, but I would not demand it be taken down and in fact would probably nod respectfully if it were flown below the US flag on a pole.

I think for me, at least, I don't fit either of these categories any longer. And that's OK, because I think I'm fairly atypical politically as a percentage of the population--high income, socially conservative, federalist governing principles. But while I disagree with the tactics of the Working Class Whites (see my occasional Twitter spats with Empire of Jeff), I cannot stand the strategy or the priorities of the Professional Whites, who I see as traitors to the American vision. So even thought I might be more comfortable with Professional Whites in casual conversation, I want to see them broken as power brokers, since I trust the working class to abuse the system less.

Posted by: Conservative Crank at July 09, 2015 05:18 PM (Gosad)

265 Thought a bit more about this (thanks ace for provoking thught), but I'm still not quite buying in.

***"I hate that the White Working Class is so comfortable being what I would term "crude," and in fact seems to take a backwards-ass pride in being crude of mind and crude of expression."***

I think this has more to do with what people do when they feel they aren't being listened to. They either get shitty or get lost.

The CC hasn't delivered any tangible results for the WCW, despite the fact that they expect and receive the support of WCW. And after failing to deliver for decades, the CC continues to expect - no, demand - support for WCWs.

Posted by: Burn the Witch at July 09, 2015 05:18 PM (xSCb6)

266 even today, you will find low intermarriage rates between the two classes.

Posted by: ace at July 09, 2015 05:16 PM (bhepQ

As stated in Wikki, citation is needed

Posted by: Misanthropic Humanitarian at July 09, 2015 05:18 PM (9mTYi)

267 they key to elections is turnout and the key to turnout is going far far left or far far right

the middle is an illusion
Posted by: thunderb at July 09, 2015 05:17 PM (zOTsN)

____________

Crazy talk!! Centrism is always a winning strategy

Posted by: John McCain, Jeb Bush, Bob Dole, Mitt Romeny at July 09, 2015 05:18 PM (0LHZx)

268 So you want more freedom....except for the freedom to have abortions.

Lovely.
Posted by: HUCK / AKIN 2016 at July 09, 2015 05:16 PM (0LHZx)

What about the freedom to have retroactive abortions?

To that end, where do you live?

Posted by: AmishDude at July 09, 2015 05:19 PM (b65cm)

269 There are two groups of people, people who think there are two groups of people and those who don't.

Posted by: OCBill at July 09, 2015 05:19 PM (F7PsT)

270 225 "And seriously.. I've been saying this shit for years.. Why can't we find some basic tenets to agree upon? Smaller, less intrusive government.

_________

Because there are many versions of "smaller government".

Version 1: Low taxes for everyone, govt leaves me the fuck alone to live my life as I choose.

Version 2: Ban things I don't like (gays, abortion, drugs, sex on TV), keep my taxes low, but that the shit out of the next guy. Oh and make sure to never cut a dime of military spending

Posted by: HUCK / AKIN 2016 at July 09, 2015 05:13 PM (0LHZx)

Oh fuck off you pathetic lying shithead.

Posted by: Buzzion at July 09, 2015 05:19 PM (B+J99)

271 "I'm for whatever class wants to cut taxes, cut spending, limit abortions, and basically gets out of my way."
________

So you want more freedom....except for the freedom to have abortions.

Lovely.
Posted by: HUCK / AKIN
---------------

Did they say that?
No.
But, I'm guessing that the writer feels that it is an issue that should be left to the States. Do you feel differently?

Posted by: Mike Hammer, etc., etc. at July 09, 2015 05:19 PM (9mTYi)

272 One of my favorite flame wars here was iceberg lettuce vs. arugula. This, sadly, is who we are.

Oh, must have missed this one.

lol

I have both arugula and iceberg lettuce, and mixed field greens in my fridge right now (which also has arugula! in the mix!).

See how tolerant I am of greens?

Posted by: artisanal 'ette at July 09, 2015 05:19 PM (qCMvj)

273 "I despise this class more than the White Working Class." Does no one see a problem with this?

Posted by: Baldy at July 09, 2015 05:19 PM (sEXjW)

274 120

You nailed it ThunderB. That's why Trump has resonated, not so much that he is a viable candidate (he's not) but because he said exactly what the WCW are feeling and experiencing. The happenstance of that poor woman's murder by the oft-deported illegal was what put Trump's comments into focus and in a real and visceral way.

Posted by: flmomof4 at July 09, 2015 05:19 PM (nSjrf)

275 Sorry I don't completely buy this analysis. The comfort class seem more then happy to ally with progressives to keep the white working class in their place. In the end its all naked class warfare, tribe over political party for every group in America. What were once political alliances of separate tribes really don't make much sense anymore.

Posted by: The Fool at July 09, 2015 05:20 PM (cGlgB)

276 >>>I think this has more to do with what people do when they feel they aren't being listened to. They either get shitty or get lost.

how many times are we going to have to hear that anger is an all-purpose excuse for shitty behavior?

Every fucking criminal is angry too.

Posted by: ace at July 09, 2015 05:20 PM (bhepQ)

277 Ace, your last paragraph nailed down the problem, I think. ... working for the country. That's too risky. The comfortable class, and probably many in the white working class, are too comfortable to take the risk of working for the country. Working for the country will upset the apple cart of the status quo and the status quo is good for a lot of people. Even if they do see the direction the country is moving in is perilous, they, in their situations, are fine. Even if they see the debt as unsustainable, the things that more debt brings them are great.

Working for the country. That needs to be at least right up there with self interest. Right now, it's not even close.

Posted by: Semper In Stercus at July 09, 2015 05:20 PM (BZAd3)

278 >>Longbow!
Posted by: Drill_Thrawl

Carpet!
Posted by: Moderate Salami

Pollock!
Posted by: IllTemperedCur

Mornington Crescent!
Posted by: Brother Cavil,
- - - - -

Ketchup on hotdogs!!!

Posted by: Lizzy at July 09, 2015 05:20 PM (NOIQH)

279 No such thing as "classes" in American society - any such thing is an invention of someone who squees and faps to the idea of aristocracy - by definition someone who denies the Founding principles of America.

The only people who believe in "classes" as a hereditary "thing" are bigots, communists, and monarchists.

Posted by: Inspector Cussword at July 09, 2015 05:20 PM (ukTrJ)

280 Exacrly inspector Cussword. Ace is misinterpreting a regional war as a class war. This is about North vs. South in many ways. Yes their are elements of the working class vs. country club dichotomy in the south, but that's largely fueled by DC based politicos who grew up in the South, like Haley Barbour, parachuting in to inflame things. It's not an accident that Barbour had to mobilize Democrats to save Thad Cochran- there simply aren't that many comfortable class Republicans in the South to do much of anything.

Posted by: Sam Haysom at July 09, 2015 05:20 PM (UtEx8)

281 Secondly prison sex isn't about sex it is about domination.

Bullshit. Punching out another guy is about domination. Sex is about...sex.

So much feminist claptrap. Nobody has an actual sex drive, everybody's just into power politics, that's all.

So much bullshit.

Posted by: AmishDude at July 09, 2015 05:20 PM (b65cm)

282 Several weeks ago, Mrs VIA and I were fortunate enough to spend an evening in Alexandria Virginia with about forty other individuals who more then likely self identify as either Conservative/Republican/ or RINO.
I would guess that we crossed many financial and societal borders.

We all had a good time.
We all agreed more then we disagreed.
We all have a deep love for our country.

There were no fights.

So I guess it is possible to reach across those things which separate us, and find the things that bind us in common cause.

And trampolines.....

Don't forget the trampoline.
It seemed to help bridge the divide.

Posted by: Village Idiot's Apprentice at July 09, 2015 05:20 PM (VPLuQ)

283 So you want more freedom....except for the freedom to have abortions.

-----

Correct, I wish to limit the freedom to kill.

I wonder if the real division in this country is simply over that?

Posted by: SH at July 09, 2015 05:21 PM (gmeXX)

284 "So we can keep on fighting in the junior leagues, to see who gets to take the 4 inch Participation Trophy"

Me me me me me me me!!!!!!

Posted by: Jared Fogle at July 09, 2015 05:21 PM (UFV5W)

285 >>>>As stated in Wikki, citation is needed

i have no cite but History Will Vindicate Me

Posted by: ace at July 09, 2015 05:21 PM (bhepQ)

286 I just realized I said Wookiee when I meant Ewok.. how eff'n stupid can I be?

carry on...

Posted by: Chi-Town Jerry at July 09, 2015 05:21 PM (so+oy)

287 Posted by: mynewhandle at July 09, 2015 05:15 PM (AkOaV)

That's one reason I believe Florida was one big fraud in 2012. They just voted in a Tea Party supported Senator and elected a Republican governor. I don't see how they went from that to voting for a Marxist failure.

Posted by: Cruzinator at July 09, 2015 05:21 PM (4SgJh)

288
anyone who thinks class is all or even mostly about money doesn't understand class.

That's why I think it's more effective to talk about it in terms of tribal cultural affiliation, which is to a large degree an artifact of self-selection. People want to interact with others who understand their references and share a vocabulary.

The word "class" carries too much Old World baggage to be useful.

Posted by: Bandersnatch at July 09, 2015 05:21 PM (JtwS4)

289 Posted by: Mike Hammer, etc., etc. at July 09, 2015 05:19 PM (9mTYi)

remember Mike he spends more on dry cleaning.........yada yada

Posted by: Misanthropic Humanitarian at July 09, 2015 05:22 PM (9mTYi)

290 For those of you who think society is collapsing because people no longer get married and also think college is a huge waste of time.....

"In general, education is linked with marriage: About half of Americans are currently married, but that number rises to 64 percent among college graduates. A college education also increases the likelihood of having a marriage that lasts, studies show. according to a new study published in the Journal of Marriage and Family."

Posted by: HUCK / AKIN 2016 at July 09, 2015 05:22 PM (0LHZx)

291 POLITICAL TV SPOT

Comfortable Class Dude: (angrily) "Hey, you got hoi polloi in my hoity toity!"

Working Class Dude: (angrily) "Well, you got hoity toity in my hoi polloi!"

BOTH: Ha, ha, ha, ha!

Cut to middle distance view of both skipping merrily down the street holding hands while "Kum-bayah" plays in the background. Fade out.

Posted by: Muldoon, a solid man no longer licking donuts at July 09, 2015 05:22 PM (NeFrd)

292 >>>No such thing as "classes" in American society - any such thing is an invention of someone who squees and faps to the idea of aristocracy - by definition someone who denies the Founding principles of America.

The only people who believe in "classes" as a hereditary "thing" are bigots, communists, and monarchists.

...

sure. any nonsense you wish to posit as an ideal must be true.

Posted by: ace at July 09, 2015 05:22 PM (bhepQ)

293 The "one decent candidate would save us" idea is something I wish we could get away from. We need a legion of leaders in statehouses and Congress more than we need Reagan 2.0. Personality above policy has Faustian pitfalls and we're not going to accomplish anything waiting around for a unicorn to ride in. That's why I keep hammering on the idea that a third party should be built ground-up, not top-down. We'll find leaders in that process, but we're almost certain to fail if we focus on a single leader (ala the Paulbots) and aim too high to start.

Posted by: SocietyIs2Blame at July 09, 2015 05:22 PM (WIOql)

294 So much bullshit.

Posted by: AmishDude at July 09, 2015 05:20 PM (b65cm)

Uhh...
I normally don't cite the soft sciences but there's some psychology work that backs this up.

It's far more complicated than that of course. It's a mixture of the two. Getting your rocks off and asserting dominance through humiliation.

Posted by: tsrblke, PhD(c) rogue bioethicst at July 09, 2015 05:22 PM (s92xH)

295 >>>That's why I think it's more effective to talk about it in terms of tribal cultural affiliation, which is to a large degree an artifact of self-selection. People want to interact with others who understand their references and share a vocabulary.

class is just a collection of tribal cultural preferences and affiliations. That's all it is.

Posted by: ace at July 09, 2015 05:23 PM (bhepQ)

296 The strong bugger the weak not because the strong find the weak sexually attractive, they do it to prove to everyone else they are dominate.

Eh, true to an extent, but there is still sexual gratification in it. Otherwise they'd just beat the living shit out of them.

Posted by: Tammy al-Thor at July 09, 2015 05:23 PM (j0kTB)

297 "They are always highlighting these cleavages."

Fox does that a lot. Legs, too.

Posted by: despair at July 09, 2015 05:23 PM (xsEwF)

298 >>For example, set the Teacher's Union against everyone else. The case is clear, pit the good of the union who defends corrupt teachers and forwards itself against all those with children and who pay taxes. Tons of ridiculous examples to draw from; many conservative solutions to the education problem.

Which is exactly what Romney did. Often.

I don't know which class I identify with. I suppose by the crude breakdown you listed I am in the Comfortable Class but I don't identify with them. I identify with ideas and people I consider leaders when I look for political leadership.

But so much of the 2012 was absolute bullshit based entirely on class or perceived class and it caused a lot of people to deny reality. Like saying Romney didn't run against the teachers union. It was one of the pillars of his campaign and he talked about it constantly. But a lot of people here didn't like Romney so they swear he never did any such thing.

Same thing with illegals. Some here keep insisting that Romney was pro-amnesty when he was the most strident anti-illegal in the campaign. Or he was constantly attacking Republicans while the other poor devils were throwing daisies. Uh huh. I guess they missed the Vulture Capitalist or 15 minute movie that Gingrich purchased from the left.

Perception all to often becomes reality and a good deal of it is based on class or resentment. It's retarded.

Posted by: JackStraw at July 09, 2015 05:23 PM (OGm46)

299 AmishDude said: Oh, and ace, I'd go with "Belmont" and "Fishtown", coined by Charles Murray.

Oh, nicely done. I should have remembered that.

Posted by: Uriah Heep at July 09, 2015 05:23 PM (ZMZ2g)

300 I'm not a "classy" guy. Never have been.

Although I would probably fall into Ace's Working Class Whites category, I'm perfectly capable of holding my own with all sorts of people from truck drivers to engineers with doctoral degrees.

Being a Christian, I recognize that we're all in this together. I don't look up or down on anyone: I look across at them. We're all the same, we all have good points and bad points and our own angels and demons.

The best thing we can do is treat others the way we want to be treated, with patience and love. It's not always easy to do, granted, but I do my best to try.

"As we reap, so shall we sow." To me, this means that you have to respect others if you expect them to respect you. As we've all noticed, there's not a whole lot of respecting going on these days.

And that's all I have to say about that.

Posted by: BackwardsBoy, who did not vote for this sh1t at July 09, 2015 05:23 PM (eEb+d)

301 Staying classy, that's me.

And "in a hog barn drunk, on Hamm's Beer" is some how appropriate.

Posted by: Crude working class white at July 09, 2015 05:23 PM (ucB75)

302 This is a bad example because it is a prison population. Secondly prison sex isn't about sex it is about domination. The strong bugger the weak not because the strong find the weak sexually attractive, they do it to prove to everyone else they are dominate.

Not true. You should read accounts of male prison sex rape survivors. Men in the prisons targeted them because they were young and gave them gifts and protection for sexual favors.

It was sexual, not about pack dominance.

Posted by: Bevel Lemelisk at July 09, 2015 05:23 PM (1LOcx)

303 I see Ace as the hunter in the old joke about the bear and the hunter.

"You don't come here for the hunting, do you?"

Meaning the uniparty rapes you over and over again but you still keep coming back for more.

Ace, you are VERY establishment but then they screw you over but then you come to their defense. You sound like a snob. And I am not a mouth breather.

Trump is throwing bombs at the uniparty.

Posted by: Misfortune & Pestilence at July 09, 2015 05:23 PM (vkf6y)

304 When working class conservatives conservatives start committing crimes I guess Ace's attempt to find an analogy between the two might make sense. But that's kind of it to a certain species of person gauche behavior is more a crime that actual crime.

Posted by: Sam Haysom at July 09, 2015 05:24 PM (UtEx8)

305 That's one reason I believe Florida was one big fraud in 2012. They just voted in a Tea Party supported Senator and elected a Republican governor. I don't see how they went from that to voting for a Marxist failure.
Posted by: Cruzinator at July 09, 2015 05:21 PM (4SgJh)

_______

You do understand that the electorate for mid terms and presidential elections is nowhere near the same, right? And this doesn't just happen in Florida. You'll get states that vote 60% for one party in one election and then the next election the guy from the other party wins a senate seat with 55%.

Posted by: HUCK / AKIN 2016 at July 09, 2015 05:24 PM (0LHZx)

306 Really? You want to be locksteppers like the DNC pets? Ew. This is just an excuse for everyone to go to their separate corners, nurse their resentments and argue their case for supremacy which is counterproductive, a waste of time, and a diversion from the real problem. The division in the GOP that matters is between conservatives and establishment Republicans who draft off the DNC, and NO, that division doesn't match up with "comfortable" v. "working" class. There you go, bringing class into everything. The establishment guys keep "winning" because they've got all the corporate money. The corporate money follows the status quo which is, unfortunately, set by the progs now. Greenery, social justice and equality. Trump is a charlatan and a crappy politician as anyone who wants to see can see. He's not "blunt" and "plain spoken"; he's a fuckign snake oil salesman whose modulated his pitch because he knows that's what his target audience wants to hear. It's all a con. IRL, just 4 years ago he was for illegal immigration and amnesty and probably still is as he hires them to work at his building enterprises. He's a self-serving attention whore, and would be useless when it comes to actual governing. He gets a lot of media attention by saying what the press wants to hear from Republicans. Good thing Ms. Steinle got murdered or Republicans Hate Mexicans would still be the main headline.

Posted by: AMartel at July 09, 2015 05:24 PM (WWgnZ)

307 Walker for the win. 5 times in a state that voted for Obama. I think Trump is prepping the battlefield.

Posted by: Jack Hagan at July 09, 2015 05:24 PM (U1iMh)

308

Version 1 : Good people like me.
Version 2 : Bad people like you.

Posted by: Oh my achin' Huck at July 09, 2015 05:24 PM (W5DcG)

309
"So you want more freedom....except for the freedom to have abortions.

Lovely."

I believe this is exactly the attitude that Ace is talking about. The poster you responded to probably agrees with you on most things. Instead of saying that, you mock and sneer at the one thing that the poster disagrees with you about. Grow the F up!

Posted by: Benji Carver at July 09, 2015 05:24 PM (OD2ni)

310 Hey! How come Obese Undocumented Ghey Layabout of Color ain't a choice?

There seems to be a lot of them these days. Those kind of numbers could really put us over the top.

Posted by: Jaws at July 09, 2015 05:24 PM (Jktp1)

311 Posted by: ace at July 09, 2015 05:22 PM (bhepQ)

Eh, note how he framed that. "a hereditary thing."

Such the straw man, easily defeated. Class is only kinda hereditary, and loosely so at that.

Or else I'd be living in a home in the ghetto or on a farm like either of my parents grew up.
Except they moved classes. And despite my failings (PhD? What the fuck was I thinking) I've managed to cling to middle class by marrying well I guess.

Posted by: tsrblke, PhD(c) rogue bioethicst at July 09, 2015 05:24 PM (s92xH)

312 That's curious. I have a law degree and a white collar job, and I'm not even white (I'm Hispanic). But I stand for white working class values.

Posted by: Dcbatlle@yahoo.com at July 09, 2015 05:25 PM (OB1ZX)

313 No, it's still just money. Unless you're talking about invitations to Subscription Dances and Debutante Balls, all it takes to switch "classes" these days is a fat check and a new zip code. Same economic classes tend to marry from within? Yeah, well welcome to the law of familiarity. The chicks you see most are the chicks you tend to marry. And with virtually everyone admitted to College these days, there's plenty of opportunity for "class-mingling". I do not think Class considerations are a major political driver now, within or without the GOP. Maybe they are on the idiot box, 2-minute segment News cycle, but in the real world, not so much.

Posted by: LincolnTf at July 09, 2015 05:25 PM (2cS/G)

314 Ace, very nice. Really. Just loved and savored it.

Posted by: Jack Hagan at July 09, 2015 05:25 PM (U1iMh)

315 The poster you responded to probably agrees with you on most things.

------

Let the record show that I probably do not agree with Moo Moo on most things.

Posted by: SH at July 09, 2015 05:25 PM (gmeXX)

316 AmishDude at July 09, 2015 05:20 PM (b65cm)

and obviously we should ignore each other when this topic is raised.

Have a nice day.

Posted by: Cassie Frankless at July 09, 2015 05:25 PM (VCuI5)

317 I hate that the White Working Class is so comfortable being what I would term "crude," and in fact seems to take a backwards-ass pride in being crude of mind and crude of expression.

But I hate that the Comfortable Class is So. Fucking. Cowardly.

OK, I just got home from work and haven't read the whole thing, but is the irony in these two sentences intentional?

Posted by: Country Singer at July 09, 2015 05:25 PM (nL0sw)

318 309
"So you want more freedom....except for the freedom to have abortions.

Lovely."

I believe this is exactly the attitude that Ace is talking about. The poster you responded to probably agrees with you on most things. Instead of saying that, you mock and sneer at the one thing that the poster disagrees with you about. Grow the F up!
Posted by: Benji Carver at July 09, 2015 05:24 PM (OD2ni)

_______

Damn fucking straight I'll mock. When someone whines about more freedom and then turns around and demands less freedom for others, I'll mock all day long.

Posted by: HUCK / AKIN 2016 at July 09, 2015 05:26 PM (0LHZx)

319 32 Excellent post; likely one of the best I've read here.

Thank you.
Posted by: Uriah Heep

*******

THIS!

Posted by: Noam Sayen at July 09, 2015 05:26 PM (FkgZk)

320 class is just a collection of tribal cultural preferences and affiliations. That's all it is.

I think I saw the term "clade" used for that sort of thing once, actually.

Posted by: Brother Cavil, down with Eph 6:12-13 at July 09, 2015 05:26 PM (2l5vw)

321 "I suggest a similar tactic with your troll here, though you may wish to skip right to the broken kneecaps portion of the program, depending on how much trouble he has caused."

This is called "Communicating a terroristic threat" It's also a Federal Felony. Could get the poster a few years in jail. Maybe it's time to drop this storyline mate?

Posted by: Federal Judge #XX at July 09, 2015 05:26 PM (00PX8)

322 Comfortable Upper Class , Upper Upper Class, is not all that politically aware

they think they are, but they aren't

they dont have time. They are working and traveling constantly. They consume only traditional news sources

You need an unusually adept communicator to break through

Posted by: thunderb at July 09, 2015 05:27 PM (zOTsN)

323 This is all pretty basic shit.

As any armchair football expert will tell you, a bad coach is one who holds sensitivity seminars to explore the feeling of his white and black players.

The great coach is the one who never mentions race and focuses on getting touchdowns. The team is united in a common goal, all players feel equal and the job gets done.

Same with the republican party.

Each faction has it's priorities and thinks the world will end if they are not addressed in the upcoming election. Great leaders put forth a vision so that those petty goals are pushed aside to obtain the Great City on the Hill.

Trump is hitting around the edges of a big theme. Whether he knows it or not, he's touching the "America is Great" buttons and with that, a lot of people are getting nostalgic for old days.

Sure, it would be better with someone else, but that someone needs to know not only how to paint the vision, but to beat up on the those who made it their priority to tear down - the media.

The Upper Middle Class and Working Class have common goals. We're all products of an era where the U.S. was the hope for the world.

It can be that way again with the right person.

Posted by: jwest at July 09, 2015 05:27 PM (9ZZd+)

324 Great, Ace, so you despise everyone, because, well, they just won't see things your way.

Huh.

Perhaps a bit of self-introspection is in order before you declare war on everybody. Or, not. And go with that.

You prize winning, and I suspect this has something to do with your lack of the "long view," by which I mean, eternity. Christians prize righteousness, by which I mean, "that which God wills for our greater good." Or, the big 10, and I don't mean football. Being right is, in fact, better than an earthly win, because of what comes later.

I expect the gap has more to do with that, right there, than any perceived "class war" motive. BYMMV.

Posted by: tcn in AK at July 09, 2015 05:27 PM (+YMhA)

325 i have no cite but History Will Vindicate Me
Posted by: ace at July 09, 2015 05:21 PM (bhepQ)

Oh i have no doubt about that. But I don't think it is as low as you think it is.

Posted by: Misanthropic Humanitarian at July 09, 2015 05:27 PM (9mTYi)

326 When someone whines about more freedom and then turns around and demands less freedom for others, I'll mock all day long.

Well I'd say when your "freedom" is the freedom to annihilate innocents, you may be rather creatively defining "freedom".

Posted by: Brother Cavil, down with Eph 6:12-13 at July 09, 2015 05:27 PM (2l5vw)

327 Let the record show that I probably do not agree with Moo Moo on most things.
Posted by: SH at July 09, 2015 05:25 PM (gmeXX)

_________

Actually you do. I bet we agree on 80% of things.

But because I disagree with you on abortion and gay marriage, you therefore must hate everything about me.

You are exactly what Ace is talking about.

Posted by: HUCK / AKIN 2016 at July 09, 2015 05:27 PM (0LHZx)

328 I think Professor Codevilla covered this sort of division a few years back...

Posted by: East Bay KG at July 09, 2015 05:27 PM (uDCdI)

329 Ketchup on hotdogs!!!
Posted by: Lizzy at July 09, 2015 05:20 PM (NOIQH)

Fucking communist.

Ketchup? On a fucking hotdog? Jesus H Christ!

Posted by: mynewhandle at July 09, 2015 05:27 PM (AkOaV)

330 I believe the classes are more divided by who gets dirty and who does not.

A Carpenter may have to think more than a media intern but at the end of the day he's got sawdust on his clothes and glue in his fingernails whereas the intern goes home clean.

That I believe is where the division began and the labels "white collar" and "blue collar".

You where colored clothes because they don't show stains quite as well as white does.

And there's also what I call the tie effect. If you dress like you would if you were wearing a tie (even if you don't) then you're working in a non hazardous environment.

the higher up the scale the more accessories: white shirt, white shirt and tie, white shirt, tie and suit coat, white shirt, tie, suit with vest.

All demonstrates to the world that you don't get your hands dirty, you order other people to get their hands dirty.

And that's how it breaks out. It's a very good analogy and it fits in many unexpected ways. A sure sign of truth.

Either way though, the lesser classes have been getting screwed over a bit more than usual lately and it's causing problem for both Dems and Reps.

I believe the lesser outnumbers the greater though which is why they have to pay at least some lip service when election time rolls around.

Unlike Charlie Brown, though, us lessers are a bit tired of Lucy and are about to kick her in the teeth this next time no matter what the downside might be.

Just to see the expression on her face.

Posted by: Bitter Clinger and All That at July 09, 2015 05:28 PM (x3GpS)

331 Stay classy morans.

Posted by: eleven at July 09, 2015 05:28 PM (IPzoI)

332 Ace, you're wrong. Class is a "thing" of the Northeast, not of the West. It's equivalent to someone sniffing "Bourgeois" at Walmart - an anti-American affectation that proves their hatred of the US.

"Class" is used by the same sort of cultures - the ones who seek "status" by defining the Other as moronic.

You say it is nonsense - I say you're blinded by your marxist/aristoi cultural surroundings. Here people sniffing about and saying shit about "bourgeois" get their fucking asses kicked for being disdainful of normal people and putting on airs.

I suppose in the Eastern part of the former US, you guys use such language to prove your hatred of the "lower subhumans" right?

Posted by: Inspector Cussword at July 09, 2015 05:28 PM (ukTrJ)

333 But because I disagree with you on abortion and gay marriage, you therefore must hate everything about me.

You are exactly what Ace is talking about.
Posted by: HUCK / AKIN 2016 at July 09, 2015 05:27 PM (0LHZx)

I don't hate you, Moo Moo.

I just think you come off as a prick.

But that's okay. On the internet, nobody knows you're a dog!

Posted by: mynewhandle at July 09, 2015 05:28 PM (AkOaV)

334 >>So you want more freedom....except for the freedom to have abortions. Lovely.
Posted by: HUCK / AKIN

Gosh, I was so close to believing your earlier comment about having nothing but respect for the Working Class, Moo Moo.

Posted by: Lizzy at July 09, 2015 05:28 PM (NOIQH)

335 Trump is looking for, and will get, his payoff to leave from the Uniparty. Like a hooker

Posted by: thunderb at July 09, 2015 05:29 PM (zOTsN)

336 Well said (and said and said), ace.

Posted by: Jenny Enjoys Stereotypes at July 09, 2015 05:29 PM (rrG3v)

337 Classes exist in America, castes do not. Our opportunity and our mobility have heretofore separated us from the rest of the world. Our betters have consciously decided to change that.

Posted by: Grump928(c) at July 09, 2015 05:29 PM (evdj2)

338 "ok, so what is so WRONG about white working class Republicans??? (I assume ACE is talking about the GOP)

I don't get it. I don't see them on TV, writing op-eds in newspapers or blogs, I don't see them protesting, burning down towns......nothing.

What do they do that is so bad?"

They're just so frightfully gauche.

Posted by: tsj017 at July 09, 2015 05:29 PM (4YUWF)

339 On Romney and amnesty :

2014: for it after he was against it after he was for it.

http://tinyurl.com/lhqz4q6

Posted by: SocietyIs2Blame at July 09, 2015 05:30 PM (WIOql)

340 OK, "clade" is apparently out of taxonomy, describing any group consisting of a common ancestor and its descendants. So I guess it's a useful substitute for "class" if we want to not trip over the other connotations there.

Posted by: Brother Cavil, down with Eph 6:12-13 at July 09, 2015 05:30 PM (2l5vw)

341 Damn fucking straight I'll mock. When someone whines about more freedom and then turns around and demands less freedom for others, I'll mock all day long.

------

This is the real divide. Abortion is meaningful to me - in that it is repugnant, evil, and the great crime against humanity of our time. I'm not alone in thinking this.

But I would at least settle for allowing Texas to live one way and CA to live another. But I cannot get that.

I'm not sure how we overcome this divide except let technology catch up to the morality - which I think it is.

Mock away Moo Moo - but this issue will not go away.

Posted by: SH at July 09, 2015 05:30 PM (gmeXX)

342 On the prison sex front, I had a good friend who worked for the Dept of Corrections and had worked both in male and female prisons. He said it was quite common for people to be homosexual in prison and it be completely consensual, get out, and then be with their families and never engage in that again. Like a switch. In female prisons at least, it's essentially 100% voluntary, there's no real prison rape.

The endless debate though of whether people are "born" that way though seems to be a loser in every way. I'm of the opinion it's not genetic, but some people have that disposition without choosing it. And some people absolutely choose it.

Regardless of what science discovers, that question being definitively answered isn't going to change anybody's thoughts on public policy or religion at this point.

Posted by: McAdams at July 09, 2015 05:30 PM (rE2PN)

343 Because Ace is completely secular and basically buys into the smart and successful people want nothing to do with that snake charming sh"@ he overlooks the fact that if you send an on paper "comfortable class" person to church once a week and suddenly he's very "comfortable" with working class politics.

It's really only in the Acela corridor that high education as status are associated with irreligion. Social science bears this out.

Posted by: Sam Haysom at July 09, 2015 05:30 PM (UtEx8)

344 I see it as much more cultural than "class" based.

Because the poor kid living in manhattan can look down on those stupid hicks in fly over country. Even if they make more money and have better life styles. They're just uneducated backwards rednecks who aren't worth listening to.

And more rural people see the "city folks" as thinking they're better than everyone, and it causes resentment.
Posted by: mynewhandle at July 09, 2015 04:50 PM (AkOaV)

Yes. I will say, one thing my grandmother taught me is that class has pretty much nothing to do with money. I think this debate has nothing to do with money, but everything to do with attitudes.

And I think it's a bit of NYish snobbery to assume the working class folks are the ones who are crude. I've seen a hell of lot more crude, rude behavior out of people who probably consider themselves high class. But they have no class at all.

*insert general manners rant here*

Posted by: Lea at July 09, 2015 05:30 PM (lIU4e)

345 312 That's curious. I have a law degree and a white collar job, and I'm not even white (I'm Hispanic). But I stand for white working class values.
Posted by: Dcbatlle@yahoo.com at July 09, 2015 05:25 PM (OB1ZX)

What, you work for a living and earn what you get?

I guess that's what passes for racism these days.

Posted by: tcn in AK at July 09, 2015 05:30 PM (+YMhA)

346 So - circular firing squad?

Posted by: Chi at July 09, 2015 05:30 PM (9WLeS)

347 >>I suppose in the Eastern part of the former US, you guys use such language to prove your hatred of the "lower subhumans" right?

But you don't have anything against easterners. Heh.

Posted by: JackStraw at July 09, 2015 05:30 PM (OGm46)

348 I don't really understand where Ace is coming from on this.

As someone who came from the working class and wants to be in the comfortable class, I don't see those two sides sniping at each other at all.

What I DO see, though, is the Working Class sniping at the Comfortable Class who CLAIM to be conservative, but in reality are Democrat Lite when it comes to illegals, big government, welfare, etc. etc.

In other words, in reality RINO's.

Posted by: Blano at July 09, 2015 05:30 PM (rkBpl)

349 Iceberg vs. Arugula.
Posted by: Bandersnatch at July 09, 2015 05:02 PM (JtwS4)

What if you hate both and identify solely with Romaine?

Comfortably Working Class?

Third Party?

Posted by: Tammy al-Thor at July 09, 2015 05:30 PM (j0kTB)

350 330 I believe the classes are more divided by who gets dirty and who does not.

---

So how do surgeons fit in here?

Posted by: Jenny Enjoys Stereotypes at July 09, 2015 05:30 PM (rrG3v)

351 Gosh, I was so close to believing your earlier comment about having nothing but respect for the Working Class, Moo Moo.
Posted by: Lizzy at July 09, 2015 05:28 PM (NOIQH)

________

Why do you assume the working class is anti-choice? If anything they are the ones who benefit most from having access to abortions.

Posted by: HUCK / AKIN 2016 at July 09, 2015 05:31 PM (0LHZx)

352 "In general, education is linked with marriage: About half of Americans are currently married, but that number rises to 64 percent among college graduates. A college education also increases the likelihood of having a marriage that lasts, studies show. according to a new study published in the Journal of Marriage and Family."
Posted by: HUCK / AKIN
----------------

Throws False Correlation Flag.
That is not nearly enough data to support the premise. It overlooks many other qualities/circumstances that might lead to compatibilty/inclination to marry and remain married among the cited group.

Posted by: Mike Hammer, etc., etc. at July 09, 2015 05:31 PM (9mTYi)

353 by good analogy, I was referring to Ace's Working Class and Professional class. I did not make that clear.

It's his analogy I was expanding on and that was what I was referring to when I said it was a good one.

Posted by: Bitter Clinger and All That at July 09, 2015 05:31 PM (x3GpS)

354 Oh the SMOD is so so beautiful, look at it!

Wait, is that a comet trail? Or just a huge blond toupe?

Posted by: BourbonChicken at July 09, 2015 05:31 PM (+4uXG)

355 346 -- blammo.

Posted by: eleven at July 09, 2015 05:31 PM (IPzoI)

356 Gosh, I was so close to believing your earlier comment about having nothing but respect for the Working Class, Moo Moo.
Posted by: Lizzy at July 09, 2015 05:28 PM (NOIQH)

If you believe in a God, whether you're Christian, Jew, Buddhist you're a fucking loser and deserve to be in the low caste class.

If you have money and want to be left alone from the low caste class you're ok in my book.

Posted by: Huck/Akin Moo Moo

Posted by: Misanthropic Humanitarian at July 09, 2015 05:31 PM (9mTYi)

357 327 Let the record show that I probably do not agree with Moo Moo on most things.
Posted by: SH at July 09, 2015 05:25 PM (gmeXX)

_________

Actually you do. I bet we agree on 80% of things.

But because I disagree with you on abortion and gay marriage, you therefore must hate everything about me.

You are exactly what Ace is talking about.
Posted by: HUCK / AKIN 2016 at July 09, 2015 05:27 PM (0LHZx)

The irony it burns. Look at your own name you dishonest pathetic murder loving tool. You chose that as a way to insult everyone that is socially conservative here and claim we're just full of Huckabee lovers. You do nothing but lie.

Posted by: Buzzion at July 09, 2015 05:31 PM (B+J99)

358
"Damn fucking straight I'll mock. When someone whines about more freedom and then turns around and demands less freedom for others, I'll mock all day long."
Suit yourself. But since a conservative cannot win without the pro-life vote.....

Posted by: Benji Carver at July 09, 2015 05:32 PM (OD2ni)

359 Romaine and Iceberg go together well.

Posted by: eleven at July 09, 2015 05:32 PM (IPzoI)

360 Posted by: HUCK / AKIN 2016 at July 09, 2015 05:24 PM (0LHZx)

You do understand the number of people who vote is the controlling factor right? Not the type of election.

Posted by: Cruzinator at July 09, 2015 05:32 PM (4SgJh)

361 What a dumb post, in so many ways. Look, you can try to spin it all you want, but homosexuality is an innate trait. The only argument now is whether it is genetic or because of a combination of external factors during fetal development. Continuing to discriminate on this basis is no different than discriminating on racial characteristics. Because some people engage in homosexual behavior in prison doesn't change that fact. There's enough information in the form of longitudinal studies and other data to show this.

We also can't end the ACA or anything else until all three branches are in Republican control. If you want to bitch, complain about the failure to reform in '01, or even '98 when we could have done so.

Posted by: Bettenhawk at July 09, 2015 05:32 PM (sE/pW)

362 For those of you who think society is collapsing because people no longer get married and also think college is a huge waste of time.....

"In general, education is linked with marriage: About half of Americans are currently married, but that number rises to 64 percent among college graduates. A college education also increases the likelihood of having a marriage that lasts, studies show. according to a new study published in the Journal of Marriage and Family."
Posted by: HUCK / AKIN 2016 at July 09, 2015 05:22 PM (0LHZx)

I realize that you are mentally deficient, but I will try to explain it to you slowly and carefully so that your weak mind is capable of understanding it:

Culturally speaking, marriage is now associated with income, education and upper class because, having been raised by divorce and disillusioned by it, they reject the "it's just a piece of paper" culture their class advocated just a generation ago.

However, their dominance of the culture has ensured that these looser mores have taken hold in the lower classes.

Also, low income people are more likely to be part of the "welfare class" who are incentivized to be unmarried.

Posted by: AmishDude at July 09, 2015 05:32 PM (b65cm)

363 >>>What if you hate both and identify solely with Romaine?

Lettuce? Now that is weird.

Posted by: Misanthropic Humanitarian at July 09, 2015 05:32 PM (9mTYi)

364
@160

Exactly!

Posted by: Misfortune & Pestilence at July 09, 2015 05:33 PM (vkf6y)

365 I suppose in the Eastern part of the former US, you guys use such language to prove your hatred of the "lower subhumans" right?

Posted by: Inspector Cussword at July 09, 2015 05:28 PM (ukTrJ)

Yeah, it's an Acela corridor thing.

I mean, I grew up here. Then I moved around the country (working / couch surfing / "finding myself") and uh... perspectives changed.

But yes, it's a way for the kid living in Astoria with 4 roommates making $40k a year to look down on those stupid rednecks in Georgia as lower-class.

It's not about money or education or career... it's just about knowing / using the right cultural signifiers.

"I have a PhD in mineral extraction and live in a 2 million dollar house in Texas" is still seen as "lower class" because you're not hitting the RIGHT cultural indicators.

but "I have a Masters in Social Justice, a BA in Womens Studies and work for a non profit in Manhattan helping poor people" is a sign of the "comfortable class" and shows the RIGHT cultural indicators.

And people outside of a small geographic area in this country don't give a SHIT about this stuff.

Also: shopping at Stop & Shop verse shopping at Whole Foods.

Tons of these little indicators everywhere.

Posted by: mynewhandle at July 09, 2015 05:33 PM (AkOaV)

366 Ace, sometimes you're too smart for your own good. Using your Marxian proletariat-bourgeoisie analysis (which is what it really is), explain how Republicans have been wildly successful at running Texas for the past two decades, increasing majorities at the state, county, and local level.

It's safe to say that the Texas Republican Party as an institution fits comfortably in your "Working Class" paradigm. Look at the platform. But the actual, governing Republican Party is clearly a bit less principled, and the bureaucrats in Austin, below the elected and appointed official level, and in many counties and all major cities, are all Democrats.

Look next door at Louisiana. Same story. Oklahoma. Same story.

You need to get out of the Northeast and see how the country really is.

Posted by: Caesar North of the Rubicon at July 09, 2015 05:33 PM (t2m1Y)

367 So - circular firing squad?
Posted by: Chi
-------------------

*sigh*
Again...

Posted by: Mike Hammer, etc., etc. at July 09, 2015 05:33 PM (9mTYi)

368 I'm a white cynic.

Posted by: bergerbilder at July 09, 2015 05:33 PM (+jijM)

369 "But that's okay. On the internet, nobody knows you're a dog!"

Moo Moo can lick his nuts?

Dayumn.

Posted by: Village Idiot's Apprentice at July 09, 2015 05:33 PM (VPLuQ)

370 I'm a white cynic.

Posted by: bergerbilder at July 09, 2015 05:33 PM (+jijM)

371 Iceberg vs. Arugula.
Posted by: Bandersnatch at July 09, 2015 05:02 PM (JtwS4)

What if you hate both and identify solely with Romaine?

Comfortably Working Class?

Third Party?

Posted by: Tammy al-Thor

Lettuce agree to disagree.

Posted by: Brother Cavil, down with Eph 6:12-13 at July 09, 2015 05:34 PM (2l5vw)

372 Naw, you know, this is just a way that Ace can express his deep hatred and loathing for people he's been raised to consider his "inferiors". He and his supporters clothe it in "class" or "properly discussed subjects" but none of them know a single rancher who has been beheaded by Coyotes or Cartel.

So you speak with heat and passion about being invaded? That proves you are an inferior, here - you have to be made to understand, you moron, that you are a LOWER CLASS and therefore a SUB CITIZEN compared to a -say - New Yorker.

Fine, Ace, be blind to your biases.

Posted by: Inspector Cussword at July 09, 2015 05:34 PM (ukTrJ)

373 see update for definitions of what class is and isn't.

Posted by: ace at July 09, 2015 05:34 PM (bhepQ)

374 out of wedlock births and divorce are wealth destroyers, in every way

Posted by: thunderb at July 09, 2015 05:34 PM (zOTsN)

375 Compromise?

Based on what?

Ridding the U.S. of Socialism?

The real answer to problems in the GOP is to stop lying to ourselves and face the truth.

The GOP is never going to be better than it is now.

Start something new.

Posted by: eman at July 09, 2015 05:34 PM (XTMHD)

376 Its Trump, or Cank at this point in the game. A time for choosing.

Posted by: DC at July 09, 2015 05:34 PM (TzeLs)

377 Ace, you're wrong. Class is a "thing" of the Northeast, not of the West. It's equivalent to someone sniffing "Bourgeois" at Walmart - an anti-American affectation that proves their hatred of the US.

"Class" is used by the same sort of cultures - the ones who seek "status" by defining the Other as moronic.

You say it is nonsense - I say you're blinded by your marxist/aristoi cultural surroundings. Here people sniffing about and saying shit about "bourgeois" get their fucking asses kicked for being disdainful of normal people and putting on airs.

I suppose in the Eastern part of the former US, you guys use such language to prove your hatred of the "lower subhumans" right?

Posted by: Inspector Cussword at July 09, 2015 05:28 PM (ukTrJ)

eh?

I have a lot of family members with wealth. Date only debutantes, castle homes, private schools, proper etiquette up the yin-yang bs all the time. What to wear, what to eat, how to hold your fork...

guess where they live?

the south, and texas

come on

was this a joke post? a troll perhaps?

Posted by: artisanal 'ette at July 09, 2015 05:34 PM (qCMvj)

378 But because I disagree with you on abortion and gay marriage, you therefore must hate everything about me.

You are exactly what Ace is talking about.
Posted by: HUCK / AKIN 2016 at July 09, 2015 05:27 PM (0LHZx)

Gosh, you mean we agree on everything except that you think murdering babies is just fine, and we all should pay for that to happen. How could that possibly come between us?

Disingenuous Asshat, sweetie, that's all that makes you.

Posted by: tcn in AK at July 09, 2015 05:35 PM (+YMhA)

379 "Damn fucking straight I'll mock. When someone whines about more freedom
and then turns around and demands less freedom for others, I'll mock all
day long."

Pro-lifers see abortion as murder. Do we discuss the "right to murder" as a "freedom" issue?

If you want a polity that incorporates pro-lifers and those who think killing the unborn is a right to liberty rather than right to life issue, you'd better leave this issue to the states. Cultural/value/moral disagreements of this scope and importance are highly socially corrosive and if you try to impose either side's views through a D.C. uniculture, you're inviting discord and eventual disunion. Likewise gay marriage and a host of other issues.

Posted by: SocietyIs2Blame at July 09, 2015 05:35 PM (WIOql)

380 Posted by: Blano at July 09, 2015 05:30 PM (rkBpl)

That's my observation as well.

Posted by: Country Singer at July 09, 2015 05:35 PM (nL0sw)

381
Iceberg vs. Arugula.
Posted by: Bandersnatch at July 09, 2015 05:02 PM (JtwS4)

What if you hate both and identify solely with Romaine?

Comfortably Working Class?

Third Party?Posted by: Tammy al-Thor at July 09, 2015 05:30 PM (j0kTB)Hmmmm. *thumbs through Roberts' Rules*BURN THE HERETIC!!!!(It's not about your salad choices, it's just that we're this far into the thread and people - any people - must be punished. Nothing personal)

Posted by: Bandersnatch at July 09, 2015 05:35 PM (JtwS4)

382 378 But because I disagree with you on abortion and gay marriage, you therefore must hate everything about me.

You are exactly what Ace is talking about.
Posted by: HUCK / AKIN 2016 at July 09, 2015 05:27 PM (0LHZx)

My God how they project...

Posted by: Bevel Lemelisk at July 09, 2015 05:35 PM (1LOcx)

383 332 Ace, you're wrong. Class is a "thing" of the Northeast, not of the West.

---

Where in the West are you talking about?

I mean that with no snark; I am genuinely fascinated with how different the concept of class is in different Texas cities. El Paso, TX and Floresville, TX (which was a rural town, now a suburb of San Antonio) absolutely shocked me with how differently they perceived class.

And of course, California cities are very class conscious as far as I can tell, and CA is definitely West.

Posted by: Jenny Enjoys Stereotypes at July 09, 2015 05:36 PM (rrG3v)

384 "Start something new."

Long overdue.

Posted by: SocietyIs2Blame at July 09, 2015 05:36 PM (WIOql)

385

I've got to go rope something up for dinner.

Roping is my new thing. Hillary has made it the trend, dontchaknow.

Great post to end the day with.

With Promise.

Posted by: artisanal 'ette at July 09, 2015 05:36 PM (qCMvj)

386 If I were elected President, I would invite at least one ex-gay and his wife to every state dinner.

I would also invite pairs of identical twins of whom one was gay and the other straight.

I would also consider lighting up the White House in rainbow colors, while posting a sign along the bottom that says, "The White House celebrates God's covenant with mankind through Noah."

Posted by: Captain Oblivious at July 09, 2015 05:36 PM (hiT/m)

387 You do understand the number of people who vote is the controlling factor right? Not the type of election.
Posted by: Cruzinator at July 09, 2015 05:32 PM (4SgJh)

_________

No. The type of election matters. Mid-term elections have a more conservative electorate, ie older, whiter. Prezzy elections have a a more liberal electorate, ie younger, less white. Which is why FL in 2012 elected Obama after electing Rubio in 2010.

It's really not that hard.

Posted by: HUCK / AKIN 2016 at July 09, 2015 05:36 PM (0LHZx)

388 Time to feed the K-9s.
Later gators.

Posted by: Misanthropic Humanitarian at July 09, 2015 05:36 PM (9mTYi)

389 and obviously we should ignore each other when this topic is raised.

Have a nice day.
Posted by: Cassie Frankless at July 09, 2015 05:25 PM (VCuI5)

Funny.

I don't recall seeing you here before.

But clearly I burst a bubble of some kind.

Posted by: AmishDude at July 09, 2015 05:37 PM (b65cm)

390 Ace, it goes without saying that you have a gift for writing. I agree with you most of the time and when I don't agree, I generally see your point. Having said that, in this particular post I would have to say that you are majoring in the minors. You are discussing division within the Republican party. In point of fact, you and your co-bloggers have garnered thousands if not millions of blog-hits by inciting division. But, I need to ask, to what end? Do you think we can beat the democrats and their media pals by fighting our own civil war in public? I don't think we can. It makes us look bad, indecisive, rudderless even. Many here even brag about sitting out elections that don't have their flavor of candidate on the ballot. Can we win this way? In my view we can't. More...in my view we are facing a democrat Supermajority. It may be inevitable, I don't know, but at the moment we can still win. Understand that if/when the democrats install a Supermajority, we are done. Whether you call yourself Republican, Tea-Partier, Conservative, we are done. Part of the Supermajority will be Hispanic voters who either now or soon will outnumber black voters. If Hispanics reflexively vote democrat, then we are done. If not today, when a few more million reach voting age, we are done. So, I think what many of you detest in Republicans like Bush is his position on immigration. Maybe Bush has seen behind the curtain. Maybe Bush knows that if we don't pull some, many, half of Hispanic voters then we are done. I can't speak for Bush or any of them but I don't think I'm wrong, or wrong that much. Maybe Reince Priebus is trying to communicate to the Donald where we stand with Hispanic voters and that we can't afford to lose all of them or a large part of them??? It's tactics isn't it? Maybe Bush and Reince know what they are talking about. Maybe Donald will draw voters and not lose Hispanic voters for a generation. I don't know, but the stakes are high. Anyway Ace, back to my main point, can we win and continue this Republican, Tea-Party, Conservative civil war. If we can't, then maybe you and the rest of the conservative bloggers need to change your approach and stop majoring in the minors.

Posted by: Scott at July 09, 2015 05:37 PM (5Zlqn)

391 This is the real divide. Abortion is meaningful to me - in that it is repugnant, evil, and the great crime against humanity of our time. I'm not alone in thinking this.

But I would at least settle for allowing Texas to live one way and CA to live another. But I cannot get that.

I'm not sure how we overcome this divide except let technology catch up to the morality - which I think it is.

Mock away Moo Moo - but this issue will not go away.

Posted by: SH

I think abortion is probably the single biggest divider among the different classes in our coalition. I would easily say the GOP loses half of white female voters purely because of this issue.

What I don't understand is why there can't be a compromised position that enjoys widespread support instead of an all or nothing approach.

Something like no abortions after 20 weeks and that be the extent of it. Let the left defend infanticide at after 20 weeks.

Instead we get bogged down in rape baby nonsense and the end result is making our side look crazy when really the other side is pro-abortion and absolutely revels in it.

Posted by: McAdams at July 09, 2015 05:37 PM (rE2PN)

392 And I think it's a bit of NYish snobbery to assume the working class folks are the ones who are crude. I've seen a hell of lot more crude, rude behavior out of people who probably consider themselves high class. But they have no class at all.

*insert general manners rant here*
Posted by: Lea at July 09, 2015 05:30 PM (lIU4e)

yeah, the stereotypical construction workers whistling at the women type thing.

The only places I really see the divisions ace is talking about are in NYC and DC. Insular bubbles.

I don't see it in the rest of the country.

Posted by: mynewhandle at July 09, 2015 05:37 PM (AkOaV)

393 "51 Both sides are to blame, there is a large swath of our side that seems
to have zero interest in actually winning anything or making changes,
they just want to fire shots in the crowd of the other side.

I honestly think there is a way to address what Trump is saying without dividing our coalition."

I'm not sure that's Trump's job. I don't think he's on the level, as got pointed out in the previous article. I think he sees his job, which he'll get paid for in guanxi and money, as to help the dems divide and conquer. He's the H Ross Perot of 2016.

Posted by: Thing From Snowy Mountain at July 09, 2015 05:37 PM (sxa/c)

394 "Genteel Poverty"--ha, been a while since I saw that term in use! (Disclaimer: I may qualify.)

Posted by: Brother Cavil, down with Eph 6:12-13 at July 09, 2015 05:37 PM (2l5vw)

395 Moo - I don't hate you. I think you are wrong on a lot of things - certainly on abortion. I think you would be a lot happier in life if you found God.

But I like sparring with you.

Posted by: SH at July 09, 2015 05:37 PM (gmeXX)

396 ***"how many times are we going to have to hear that anger is an all-purpose excuse for shitty behavior?

Every fucking criminal is angry too.

Posted by: ace at July 09, 2015 05:20 PM (bhepQ)"***

Shitty =/= Criminal

At what point did I say it was an excuse? Also, since you quoted the "get lost" part of my observation, I'm curious as to why you ignored it.

You were angry enough to vote Democrat. I consider that crude and shitty. Does your own argument here apply?

If not, why not?

Posted by: Burn the Witch at July 09, 2015 05:37 PM (xSCb6)

397 Posted by: artisanal 'ette at July 09, 2015 05:34 PM (qCMvj)

---

Inspector Cussword is not a troll. But, yeah, as a lifelong Texan I definitely agree that we are loaded to the fucking gills with class issues (though different cities have different issues)

Posted by: Jenny Enjoys Stereotypes at July 09, 2015 05:38 PM (rrG3v)

398 And damn, they stole my italicians.

Posted by: Thing From Snowy Mountain at July 09, 2015 05:38 PM (sxa/c)

399 >>Why do you assume the working class is anti-choice? If anything they are the ones who benefit most from having access to abortions.

Ugh, really?

Ace didn't address religion in his working class vs. comfortable class paradigm, but the comfortable class sure as hell doesn't support most so-con issues and are pretty freakin' annoyed w/religious folk unless it's the Episcopalian kind of take on it (note: I'm a conservative Episcopalian).

So by process of elimination I'm guessing so-cons fall into the working class group according to ace's paradigm. Did you see it differently - do you consider religious people right there beside you in the comfortable class?

Posted by: Lizzy at July 09, 2015 05:38 PM (NOIQH)

400 Urban vs suburban / rural.

Posted by: @votermom at July 09, 2015 05:39 PM (m+u7z)

401 Why, they even might work crappy jobs like blogging!

Sign up for Obama's free community college and become a dental hygienist?

Posted by: HR braucht ein Bier at July 09, 2015 05:39 PM (ZKzrr)

402 >>I don't see it in the rest of the country.

Travel more. The south has always been at least as class based as any other part of the country and it hasn't changed.

Posted by: JackStraw at July 09, 2015 05:39 PM (OGm46)

403 Ace , you need to replace that slogan on your masthead:

"Cramming ten pounds of shit into five pound bags, since I can't remember when"

Posted by: Noam Sayen at July 09, 2015 05:39 PM (FkgZk)

404 I think abortion is probably the single biggest divider among the different classes in our coalition. I would easily say the GOP loses half of white female voters purely because of this issue.

What I don't understand is why there can't be a compromised position that enjoys widespread support instead of an all or nothing approach.

------

Its a good question. Is it class, is it this, or is it really just abortion?

Anyway, the reason we cannot compromise is because the Supreme Court in its infinite wisdom took that power away from us.

Posted by: SH at July 09, 2015 05:40 PM (gmeXX)

405 I think the RNC is the one doing the dividing too.

I know I'm not rare in thinking:

"I don't give a shit what you look like or what you make, I just want us to agree that Obamacare is a disaster, The Constitution should actually mean something, illegal immigration is changing this country for the worse, and stop spending my taxes on bullshit."

Posted by: Seems Legit at July 09, 2015 05:40 PM (Xa4vS)

406 Tons of these little indicators everywhere.
Posted by: mynewhandle
------------------

Most of the Progs of my acquaintance frequent pricey boutique restaurants, coffee houses, etc. I resent that not a whit, but noting the bumper stickers, they are manifestly hypocritical.

A person's mere presence in these places suggests to fellow visitors that one is a fellow traveler, even if you ARE driving a Range Rover. In point of fact, that would reinforce your cred.

Posted by: Mike Hammer, etc., etc. at July 09, 2015 05:40 PM (9mTYi)

407 This post is just about Ace being a snob. He's embarrassed by any of us supporting Trump.

He makes assumptions that those supporting Trump must be unintelligent, uneducated, white middle class because, of course, they couldn't be intelligent and middle class.

I'm a college educated, licensed professional with an IQ on the higher end of the scale and grew up in upper middle class surroundings.

I'm crude and blunt with my views and I support Trump and his bomb throwing.

How do I fit into your assumptions?

Posted by: Misfortune & Pestilence at July 09, 2015 05:40 PM (vkf6y)

408 "So we can keep on fighting in the junior leagues, to see who gets to take the 4 inch Participation Trophy home, or we can put aside childish things and act like men and women who care about their country and not just their class prerogatives."

You would think that the Comfortable Class with their superior education would have figured this out pretty fast on their own. Since they have not, I feel this is really an appeal to the Working Class to cowboy up.

Posted by: Decaf at July 09, 2015 05:40 PM (xm2dE)

409 What a dumb post, in so many ways. Look, you can try to spin it all you want, but homosexuality is an innate trait. The only argument now is whether it is genetic or because of a combination of external factors during fetal development. Continuing to discriminate on this basis is no different than discriminating on racial characteristics. Because some people engage in homosexual behavior in prison doesn't change that fact.

So it's innate.

Except when it's not.

Posted by: AmishDude at July 09, 2015 05:41 PM (b65cm)

410 >>>Where in the West are you talking about?

please.

Posted by: ace at July 09, 2015 05:41 PM (bhepQ)

411 What I don't understand is why there can't be a compromised position that enjoys widespread support instead of an all or nothing approach.

Something like no abortions after 20 weeks and that be the extent of it. Let the left defend infanticide at after 20 weeks.

Posted by: McAdams at July 09, 2015 05:37 PM (rE2PN)

______________

Because when you propose something like this SoCons come back with "oh so it's OK to kill someone at 19.9 weeks, but not at 20.0 weeks?". For them abortion is bad. End of story. No compromise allowed.

Which is why this fucking issue will be with us 100 years from now and will be a losing issue for Republicans.

Posted by: HUCK / AKIN 2016 at July 09, 2015 05:41 PM (0LHZx)

412 Posted by: Scott at July 09, 2015 05:37 PM (5Zlqn)

Scott,

You're obviously a thoughtful person and a good addition to the conversation, however, if you ever post another novel sized comment in one paragraph, we'll hunt you down.

Posted by: jwest at July 09, 2015 05:41 PM (9ZZd+)

413 And stop insulting the middle class.

Posted by: Misfortune & Pestilence at July 09, 2015 05:41 PM (vkf6y)

414 I just realized I said Wookiee when I meant Ewok... how eff'n stupid can I be?
Why don't you just say they all look alike, WWC hick!

Posted by: andycanuck at July 09, 2015 05:41 PM (kivUY)

415 OK, now I get it!

White working class Conservatives/Republicans are just too Christian, too gauche, and too much of an embarrassment to our betters in the Party.

That is nothing new! And ACE has brought no new incite to this "problem", because it isn't a problem for the "professional comfortable class" until someone like Palin or Trump goes up in some polls.

Don't fret ACE, these are temporary poll spikes, no way will the GOP let any "working class, Christian, or gauche Republican near the nomination!!

Posted by: pam at July 09, 2015 05:42 PM (EAZ7y)

416
What I don't understand is why there can't be a compromised position that enjoys widespread support instead of an all or nothing approach.

-------

Huh? How do you compromise on your morals? Killing innocents is wrong. Period. Not compromising on that one.

Posted by: Seems Legit at July 09, 2015 05:42 PM (Xa4vS)

417 I love Texas but there is serious money here and serious classes

Posted by: thunderb at July 09, 2015 05:42 PM (zOTsN)

418 Because when you propose something like this SoCons come back with "oh so it's OK to kill someone at 19.9 weeks, but not at 20.0 weeks?". For them abortion is bad. End of story. No compromise allowed.

-----

Ok - I found something I agree with you on. We do believe that.

Posted by: SH at July 09, 2015 05:42 PM (gmeXX)

419 Posted by: mynewhandle at July 09, 2015 05:37 PM (AkOaV)

---

Can I ask where you have lived (longer than 3 months, after the age of 12)?

Posted by: Jenny Enjoys Stereotypes at July 09, 2015 05:42 PM (rrG3v)

420 Donald Trump serves a useful purpose...he shines light on subjects the political class avoid. Wouldn't want to lose a vote, right? As a person, other than a successful businessman, I don't like his crassness or his comb-over...but I have to say I find him entertaining and spot on at times. Illegals, criminal illegals, should be deported...to the Arctic Circle. Without a secure border it is hopeless...and it is well known that some countries actually free their criminals to get rid of them in the USA. So we can pay for their three square meals for awhile when they rape or murder again. Heck, just ask for a firing squad for some. Make them think twice about this country. Heartless? Welp, so is late term abortion.

I really like Dr. Ben Carson. I read his book on how he overcame gangs growing up to be one of the most successful and respected pediatric neurosurgeons in the USA. His mother is the reason of his success. Why, oh, why could he not be the first black president?

Regarding the homosexual issue. About ten years ago I knew a beginning high school teacher. He said that a huge percent of high school girls considered themselves bisexual. Because they experimented and wanted to be "cool." So, instead of just having sex in cars with the football players, smoking cigs or pot, drinking, etc, it has become the norm to be unique or cool by being, at least sometimes, bisexual in this generation of kids. Being bisexual or lesbian or homo or trans, it is cool.

I read, after the el stupid Supreme Court inserted their barnacled nose into the business of marriage and religion, that a noted (I had never heard of her and, unfortunately for this rant do not remember her name) lesbian writer lamented that being a lesbo does not have the same vibe of coolness anymore. Her uniqueness has been taken away. I wept for her (not really, my flying monkeys).

I really don't care who or what you are having sex with, just don't do it in front of me or scare the horses. I do care, very much, that you not marry in church as I will go to my grave answering to God and what is written in His Word vs what man has declared law. Bite moi. xoxo

Posted by: ChristyBlinky,aging Redneck Queen supermodel, has a Hobbit foot at July 09, 2015 05:43 PM (5br9Q)

421 The south has always been at least as class based as any other part of the country and it hasn't changed.

Every small town in the Midwest has their own class-based system, too. Gotta have the right name--or at very least the backing of the right names if none of them are interested this year--to get on a school board, or the town festival committee.

Posted by: HR braucht ein Bier at July 09, 2015 05:43 PM (ZKzrr)

422 Travel more. The south has always been at least as class based as any other part of the country and it hasn't changed.
Posted by: JackStraw at July 09, 2015 05:39 PM (OGm46)

No I mean... I have family who live in NYC, I hang out there fairly regularly.

The first question (well, one of the first) people I just met ask me is, "where did you go to college?"

And I went to a "right school" so when I tell them, you can see their demeanor change.

Like to them, that's a huge cultural signifier of "are you one of us or not"?

I dont' see that in other places. Maybe I'm wrong.

Posted by: mynewhandle at July 09, 2015 05:43 PM (AkOaV)

423 Ace didn't address religion in his working class vs. comfortable class paradigm, but the comfortable class sure as hell doesn't support most so-con issues and are pretty freakin' annoyed w/religious folk unless it's the Episcopalian kind of take on it (note: I'm a conservative Episcopalian).

So by process of elimination I'm guessing so-cons fall into the working class group according to ace's paradigm. Did you see it differently - do you consider religious people right there beside you in the comfortable class?

Posted by: Lizzy at July 09, 2015 05:38 PM (NOIQH)

____________

I'm not looking at it from a religious POV. I'm looking at it from an economics POV. Poor people benefit more from abortion that affluent people. A single mother of 2 making $15/hr is going to be hurt a lot more by having a 3rd baby than a lawyer making $200K a year having a baby.

Posted by: HUCK / AKIN 2016 at July 09, 2015 05:43 PM (0LHZx)

424 Please see my sig line...
No where does it say left vs right.

Posted by: Gmac- 'all politics in this country now is dress-rehearsal for civil war' at July 09, 2015 05:43 PM (4CRfK)

425 "Genteel Poverty"--ha, been a while since I saw that term in use! (Disclaimer: I may qualify.)
Posted by: Brother

------------

"I have always depended on the kindness of strangers…

Posted by: Blanche DuBois at July 09, 2015 05:44 PM (9mTYi)

426 Huck / Akin 2016: No. The type of election matters.

Uh, buddy, the "type of election" is coupled to the turnout.

Think of an onion. The volume equals votes. The core is republican rich, proportionally. As you move further out, you become proportionally more democratic.

The "type of election" just means that in low turn-out contests (ie. small onions) you're sampling from the core, where most of the volume is. During presidential contests, you effectively increase the radius which means your volume is yielded almost entirely from the out most layers, which is high density democrat votes.

TL

R -- you're saying the same thing.

Posted by: Uriah Heep at July 09, 2015 05:44 PM (ZMZ2g)

427 So it's innate.

Except when it's not.

I'm so old I remember "Lesbian Until Graduation."

Posted by: HR braucht ein Bier at July 09, 2015 05:44 PM (ZKzrr)

428 Posted by: HUCK / AKIN 2016 at July 09, 2015 05:36 PM (0LHZx)

It's not that hard? You are one condescending prick. Look up the stats of the election. I'm done with you.

Posted by: Cruzinator at July 09, 2015 05:44 PM (4SgJh)

429 I don't see how the "class system" is improved by importing millions upon millions of illiterate peasants from the third world shit holes of Mexico and South America with a cradle to grave welfare state and assimilation which if it happens at all happens purely by accident.

And seeing as the constitutional order and rule of law is nearly extinct now, how will the situation be improved by importing people who have no comprehension or fealty to such a construction?

I do not want to be a minority in my own country and that is what we are being asked to allow and abide.

All across the Anglosphere, the elites are allowing their countries to be swamped by invaders against the wishes and expressed desires of the populace, it has to stop because if it doesn't then I see nothing but war and conflict ahead.

Posted by: Kreplach at July 09, 2015 05:44 PM (VvoVZ)

430 The White Working Class did try to work with The Comfortable Class.
That was the Tea Party 2010 wave election.
See what happened.

Posted by: @votermom at July 09, 2015 05:44 PM (cbfNE)

431 NE uses college as an identifier

here in Texas its private school and neighborhood

followed by summer home

Posted by: thunderb at July 09, 2015 05:44 PM (zOTsN)

432
fitness and health
UMC=yoga, triathalons, marathons, road races
WCW=nothing, plane skinny, strength training.

Rippetoe had an article about a writer who added about 40 pounds of muscle and all the guys friends and family hated how he looked.

Hen pecked the guy back down to 180

Posted by: Yo! at July 09, 2015 05:45 PM (W6iIX)

433 Trump isn't your candidate.

You sound like a Sanders man.

Posted by: Adjoran at July 09, 2015 05:45 PM (QIQ6j)

434 Oops, so typical of my low class.....I meant "insight".

Posted by: pam at July 09, 2015 05:45 PM (EAZ7y)

435 **Question:**

What I don't understand is why there can't be a compromised position that enjoys widespread support instead of an all or nothing approach.

Posted by: McAdams at July 09, 2015 05:37 PM (rE2PN)

**Answer: **

Huh? How do you compromise on your morals? Killing innocents is wrong. Period. Not compromising on that one.
Posted by: Seems Legit at July 09, 2015 05:42 PM (Xa4vS)

Posted by: HUCK / AKIN 2016 at July 09, 2015 05:45 PM (0LHZx)

436 I'm looking at it from an economics POV.

------

Gee - I wonder why there are divisions?

I'm not sure they can be overcome unless we have a common enemy.

Posted by: SH at July 09, 2015 05:45 PM (gmeXX)

437 Thank you everyone for the kind compliments.

We are now at a time where we either band together or not. Trump may be a lot of things but he is speaking the blunt truth on a LOT of issues.

And on immigration, 70% of AMERICANS of all races, classes, and PARTIES, agree with him.

And now the SJWs and the left seek to destroy him. The SJWs are doing what they always do.

It is time for us to adopt their tactics. Yes Marxists had a few things right, so can we not turn the tables? Are we so cowardly, or apathetic, or just plain "all talk" losers that we do NOTHING because we don't "like" boycotts. The Germans didn't stop using poison gas in WWI b/c of chivalry or honor. All sides stopped using it because the allies started fucking bombing the shit out of the Germans with it.

It is well past time that we break out the poison gas. Stop backstabbing our own candidates that are speaking about important issues simply because we disagree on other things.

For fuck's sake, the other side has an avowed socialist senile crank, who wants to limit our choice of deodorant, and opines about women fantasizing about being raped by two men at a time.

Do you ever see any media, let alone leftist media, stating, hey this guy is a whirlwind of fucking problems. He's a carnival barker?

No. They are lockstep in unison behind his qualifications. Now this rule doesn't apply to all GOPe, every one of those fuckers that are considered establishment are fair game.

But the Donald ain't one of them. Folks, if we do not organize boycotts and go after SJWs three times as hard the country is fucking lost. Go after corporations, boycott Macy's and Serta, my family already has. NBC as well. Write emails and letters and sign petitions. Corporations are COWARDS. Make them fear the bottom line.

That's why I told my life story. I've been a liberal, atheist, dirt poor, borderline commie. What changed? Life, experience, and understanding the truth.

There are "inquiries" about Donald's Hollywood star because he dare speak about the desire to secure our fucking border??? Is this fucking Stalinist Russia?

Aside from the boycotts I mentioned, I also encourage SciFi readers to buy memberships in the Hugo voting slate, $40 a pop. Google sad and rabid puppies and you will see what I mean.

What we sorely lack is ORGANIZATION and unison in movement. The SJWs have that. So the freaks cry out and it seems like a groundswell. It is not. They are psychotic. In normal days, we would pat their heads and then put them to bed.

Posted by: prescient11 at July 09, 2015 05:45 PM (Au7Z/)

438 Ace,

Have you ever read Paul Fussell's "Class: A Guide Through the American Status System"? Not to signify or anything, but I read it a number of years ago and highly recommend it.

- Z, college and law school graduate

Posted by: VA MK Z at July 09, 2015 05:45 PM (Ii2lB)

439 Oh yay, Huck / Akin is shitting up yet another thread.

Posted by: Burn the Witch at July 09, 2015 05:45 PM (xSCb6)

440 Holy cow, the Addendum is almost as long as the Body.

(That's what she said.)

Posted by: logprof at July 09, 2015 05:45 PM (gcE+A)

441 Just made me a mess o' bacon and a porterhouse. My unabashed love of meat marks me as one of the lumpenproles. But I'm drinking it with a hipster craft beer - 1%er! But, pantsless, so, crude. But, listening to classical music, ergo, classy as shit.

Posted by: All Hail Eris, Literate Savage at July 09, 2015 05:45 PM (jR7Wy)

442 I'm (mostly) white; I have a college education from a private school and work (sometimes quite frustratingly) in higher education. I can speak with the measured tones of proper, American Standard English.
But I came up from poor, working class people (who at the very least identified as "white" on census forms) -- hillbillys, if you will. I'm no stranger to many of those dirty jobs featured on Mr. Rowe's show, nor military service as a means to better one's life circumstances (beats massive student debt and no job prospects). There are no in-ground swimming pools, nor vacation trips to Europe in my background -- I can remember government cheese and generic bread from my childhood during the Carter years (and would prefer my children don't have to live through that). So, there's my own experiential backstory:
If there is a problem, imhao, it has usually stemmed from the so-called upper classes, who act like proper leftists when it comes to their incessant need to condescend to and excoriate those they see as their lessers (they turn some into their pets, while they make others their whipping boys -- this likely has to do with whatever is deemed will make them considered "cool" and/or "nice" in polite social circles; it has nothing to do with fairness or justice, or even any approximation of truth).
I would conjecture that those "lesser" people would likely drop some of their profane statements if 1) they were allowed to speak their minds openly and freely; 2) not constantly denigrated at every turn. I might add that eventually no one with an ounce of personal dignity can hack being either a pet or a whipping boy -- eventually it will not hold, and the only way one can stay in one's oh so desired social status is through totalitarian controls -- which makes one a slave to the security of the state anyway.
Freedom of speech was also important to keep people from feeling the need to resort to crude shouting in order to simply be heard; and perhaps equal protection can also be applied to the notion that we are all equally protected from witch hunts when in the prosecution of said free speech. Just a thought.

Posted by: unknown j. at July 09, 2015 05:46 PM (0EjYp)

443 Posted by: HUCK / AKIN 2016 at July 09, 2015 05:43 PM (0LHZx)

Then she should be able to kill her two year old if she loses her job. It's economics !

Posted by: Cruzinator at July 09, 2015 05:46 PM (4SgJh)

444 Its a good question. Is it class, is it this, or is it really just abortion?

Cultural signifiers. Among other things, but from a standpoint of how the interactions go it's signifiers.

Posted by: Brother Cavil, down with Eph 6:12-13 at July 09, 2015 05:46 PM (2l5vw)

445 Every small town in the Midwest has their own class-based system, too. Gotta have the right name--or at very least the backing of the right names if none of them are interested this year--to get on a school board, or the town festival committee.
Posted by: HR braucht ein Bier at July 09, 2015 05:43 PM (ZKzrr)

I don't know that I would call that a class system so much, just because the numbers are small. It strikes me as more like small-town politics and more personal than anything else.

Posted by: AmishDude at July 09, 2015 05:46 PM (b65cm)

446 It's not that hard? You are one condescending prick. Look up the stats of the election. I'm done with you.
Posted by: Cruzinator at July 09, 2015 05:44 PM (4SgJh)

________

If you don;t understand why Reps do better in mid-terms than in general elections you are a very unintelligent person.

Posted by: HUCK / AKIN 2016 at July 09, 2015 05:47 PM (0LHZx)

447 431 NE uses college as an identifier

here in Texas its private school and neighborhood

followed by summer home

Posted by: thunderb at July 09, 2015 05:44 PM (zOTsN)

We use club memberships.

Lots of good vetting there.

Posted by: jwest at July 09, 2015 05:47 PM (9ZZd+)

448 >>>White working class Conservatives/Republicans are just too Christian, too gauche, and too much of an embarrassment to our betters in the Party.

That is nothing new! And ACE has brought no new incite to this "problem", because it isn't a problem for the "professional comfortable class" until someone like Palin or Trump goes up in some polls.

...

it's insulting to hear but yeah, some shit is in fact gauche and looked upon as unclassy by other people.

and most people know what this stuff is, and it can easily be avoided, while still sticking to principle.

it is only a need for Class Assertiveness and Validation that causes people to keep on pushing things they know are viewed as uncouth or gauche by so many others.

Posted by: ace at July 09, 2015 05:47 PM (bhepQ)

449 Its a good question. Is it class, is it this, or is it really just abortion?

Anyway, the reason we cannot compromise is because the Supreme Court in its infinite wisdom took that power away from us.
Posted by: SH

The few times social conservatives "win" on the abortion issue is when it's a common sense policies being staked out like after 20 weeks or requiring a doctor on premises etc.

It's never when a Santorum type politician stakes out a really strident position that 90% of people recoil from. Some people have this idea that shooting for the moon will get a compromise, but it doesn't, it just makes people head for the exits and we get nothing.

I would simply take Europe's abortion laws and that be the end of it as it's a much better deal than we get currently in the US. It doesn't mean I'll stop taking issue with abortion, but at some point you recognize that it's always going to be here and you'll probably get fewer abortions battling the issue on moral grounds than more laws.

Posted by: McAdams at July 09, 2015 05:47 PM (rE2PN)

450 I think we can learn from Romney's candidacy: Working class whites simply won't vote for a successful northerner / cultural outsider, and a guy like Romney can't bring former Republicans in the north back into the fold like we had hoped.

Posted by: Max at July 09, 2015 05:47 PM (e1SFr)

451 Well, I count Texas as Mid-West. So yeah, my "West" is Idaho, Montana, Wyoming, Arizona, New Mexico, Colorado, Nebraska, Utah, Nevada - The West.

Texas? It's kinda west, but it is it's own place.

Do I count Oregon, Washington, and California as The West? No, I've lived there and No, it is not. It is part and parcel culturally closer to the Eastern Seaboard than the real West.

I suppose I mean the Rocky Mountain West - and I've lived here some 40 of my over 50 years. "Class" is what we take in school. No one is "lower class" - that's an insult from scum. No one is "upper class" - that's the drooling of dingbats who masturbate over the idea of power.

But it's regional - like I said before, we are not "classes" - we are separate regions and Peoples with little to nothing in common but gas prices and classic rock stations.

Posted by: Inspector Cussword at July 09, 2015 05:47 PM (ukTrJ)

452 just call it the "Palin" faction vs the "Romney" faction, though I'd guess politically there is little difference between them they do turn off, and appeal to, different groups

Posted by: Ben H at July 09, 2015 05:47 PM (4R+mh)

453 443 Posted by: HUCK / AKIN 2016 at July 09, 2015 05:43 PM (0LHZx)

Then she should be able to kill her two year old if she loses her job. It's economics !
Posted by: Cruzinator at July 09, 2015 05:46 PM (4SgJh)

______________

SoCon gotta SoCon

Posted by: HUCK / AKIN 2016 at July 09, 2015 05:47 PM (0LHZx)

454 434 Oops, so typical of my low class.....I meant "insight".
Posted by: pam at July 09, 2015 05:45 PM (EAZ7y)

-----

I liked your comment and I'm glad I didn't act like a pedant ass.

Posted by: Seems Legit at July 09, 2015 05:47 PM (Xa4vS)

455 and yes, palin could not stop from merely having the working class as her center of power; she had to take the next step of actively insulting the other classes.

I keep saying, sorry, you're not going anywhere with these candidates who represent ONLY the working class.

Posted by: ace at July 09, 2015 05:48 PM (bhepQ)

456 I think the RNC is the one doing the dividing too.
I know I'm not rare in thinking:
"I don't give a shit what you look like or what you make, I just
want us to agree that Obamacare is a disaster, The Constitution should
actually mean something, illegal immigration is changing this country
for the worse, and stop spending my taxes on bullshit."

--------

Pretty good platform right there. With the exception of amnesty it's original Tea Party, and amnesty belongs with the other issues - the Constitution was meant to be for "our posterity," not "mankind's posterity."

--------

Weld the working classes and the non-apparatchiks of the upper class into a single party: drop the GOP's crony monetarism and corporatism, tax cuts without spending cuts and world policing. Drop the Dems obsession with Keynesian stimulus, microregulation, identity and equality politics and kill the public, not private sector, unions.

Posted by: SocietyIs2Blame at July 09, 2015 05:48 PM (WIOql)

457 The three questions always asked in Louisiana of a new acquaintance is
Are you Catholic
Can you make a roux
and who's you momma

Posted by: Velvet Ambition at July 09, 2015 05:48 PM (R8hU8)

458 SoCon gotta SoCon

-----

Yes, that's why we are the hardworking backbone of this country.

STFU

Posted by: Seems Legit at July 09, 2015 05:48 PM (Xa4vS)

459 Don't forget ~~global warming~~ climate change as a cultural signifier.

Posted by: Captain Oblivious at July 09, 2015 05:49 PM (hiT/m)

460 >>I'm not looking at it from a religious POV. I'm looking at it from an economics POV.

You're missing the point and I'm guessing it's intentional since you're doing your best to divide on a thread in which Ace has said *we need to bridge the gaps* if we are to be successful.
Go ahead, keep on insulting and hammering away on what you know to be a very divisive topic, not only within the country but in this blog.

But yeah, you totes respect the working class. Gotcha. Respect demonstrated and noted.

Posted by: Lizzy at July 09, 2015 05:49 PM (NOIQH)

461 >>>Working class whites simply won't vote for a successful northerner / cultural outsider, and a guy like Romney can't bring former Republicans in the north back into the fold like we had hoped.

as has been said a thousand times: they did vote for him. Romney got a higher percentage of all white votes than Reagan did.

Posted by: ace at July 09, 2015 05:49 PM (bhepQ)

462 preaching to the choir, brother.

Posted by: ace at July 09, 2015 05:07 PM (bhepQ)

You won't get vouchers be the Comfortable Class doesn't want vouchers. Do you think they want to see 10% or more of their kids' schools attendance being low income kids? Trust me they don't and I don't blame them.

Posted by: WOPR at July 09, 2015 05:49 PM (nRvEn)

463 The socons stoled my Brinks truck!!11!!

Posted by: Mr. Foo Foo at July 09, 2015 05:49 PM (Dwehj)

464 I'm not looking at it from a religious POV. I'm
looking at it from an economics POV. Poor people benefit more from
abortion that affluent people. A single mother of 2 making $15/hr is
going to be hurt a lot more by having a 3rd baby than a lawyer making
$200K a year having a baby.

Posted by: HUCK / AKIN 2016 at July 09, 2015 05:43 PM (0LHZx)

********************
Seeing children as a cost and not a blessing is inherently evil.

Posted by: Caesar North of the Rubicon at July 09, 2015 05:49 PM (t2m1Y)

465 One of your rare duds. I'm not a regular moron, so who cares? But, dude,from where I sit, you are beginning to internalize the slave master.

Posted by: herb borkland at July 09, 2015 05:50 PM (AZ4sn)

466 it's insulting to hear but yeah, some shit is in fact gauche and looked upon as unclassy by other people.

-----

Can you provide an example or two out of curiosity. I'm sure I would agree on some, not on others.

Didn't Its Always Sunny have an episode on classy - things that were and weren't?

Posted by: SH at July 09, 2015 05:50 PM (gmeXX)

467 Yes, that's why we are the hardworking backbone of this country.

STFU
Posted by: Seems Legit at July 09, 2015 05:48 PM (Xa4vS)

__________

Get the fuck over yourself. So unless you're a holy roller you're not a hard worker? Fuck off.

Posted by: HUCK / AKIN 2016 at July 09, 2015 05:50 PM (0LHZx)

468 I dont' see that in other places. Maybe I'm wrong.

Posted by: mynewhandle at July 09, 2015 05:43 PM (AkOaV)

Oh, it exists in other places. I saw it today at work. Had a meeting, the presenter was obiviously very intelligent, very articulate, and knew his subject matter very well, able to answer intricate questions that tangentially related to the topic.

On the way out, our resident California liberal (West Point grad), asked him where he had gone to school. It turned out to be some tiny Institute of Technology in Jersey. Our lib says, "Huh, no-name tech. Never heard of it." Then turned and walked away trying to make a joke of it.

Posted by: Country Singer at July 09, 2015 05:50 PM (nL0sw)

469 as long as we are talking class, what class is the JEF?

Clearly upper middle if not upper upper class

but dems sold him as lower class because black

how is that not racist

Posted by: thunderb at July 09, 2015 05:50 PM (zOTsN)

470 There's a reason Daryl is the most popular character on TWD.

Posted by: @votermom at July 09, 2015 05:50 PM (T12l6)

471 SoCons, in general, believe in delayed gratification, hard work, fiscal responsibility, religious freedom, and moral decency.

When SoCons are attacked, there are the things that are being attacked.

Posted by: Gregory of Yardale at July 09, 2015 05:50 PM (c/Ipt)

472 >>The first question (well, one of the first) people I just met ask me is, "where did you go to college?"

>>And I went to a "right school" so when I tell them, you can see their demeanor change.

I spent 4 years basically living and working in the south and I saw the exact same thing there. Auburn vs Alabama, FSU vs Miami .. it is endless. And it had a lot to do with class not just football.

I think it pretty much exists in every part of the country and to some degree it's pretty natural. When I was a kid the whole idea was to go to the right school and aspire to the right neighborhood, etc.

I came from a family that was a mix of middle class and the other side of the tracks. I live in a pretty blue class neighborhood but I am surrounded by enormous wealth (read inherited super wealth) and I see them interact daily. Not just professionally but socially too.

There is no doubt that some people are absolutely class based in everything they do. I don't think that explains everything about our political choices but there is no doubt it plays a big part.

I'm on the Walker bandwagon so far. Not sure what that says about my class or lack thereof.

Posted by: JackStraw at July 09, 2015 05:51 PM (OGm46)

473 >>>Its a good question. Is it class, is it this, or is it really just abortion?

i don't think it's all about that but that is part of it, that is a consequence. the Comfortable Class is largely pro-choice, but they pretend to be Pro-life to be viable within a pro-life party.

Posted by: ace at July 09, 2015 05:51 PM (bhepQ)

474 I like Palin Class v. Romney Class. You know which class you belong to.

Posted by: SH at July 09, 2015 05:51 PM (gmeXX)

475 Seeing children as a cost and not a blessing is inherently evil.
Posted by: Caesar North of the Rubicon at July 09, 2015 05:49 PM (t2m1Y)

_________

No, it's realistic. Kids cost money, lots of it.

Posted by: HUCK / AKIN 2016 at July 09, 2015 05:51 PM (0LHZx)

476 Ace is completely wrong here. At least about the working class. I don't think they want to be the cultural dominator, they just want to not be constantly bullied. I don't know where Ace got that idea that they want everyone to listen to them. Shit, they just want people to leave them the fuck alone.

Posted by: Doesn't happen often at July 09, 2015 05:52 PM (9aqMW)

477 "I hate that the White Working Class is so comfortable being what I would term "crude," and in fact seems to take a backwards-ass pride in being crude of mind and crude of expression."

I don't see it this way. I see this group for the most part as people despised and degraded by the elites for their resistance to PC orthodoxy and who as a result have taken on certain characteristics of frustration, defiance and rage. This is what contempt leads to, especially when those held in contempt feel they have no recourse, no representation, no champion. There are millions and millions of decent "live and let live" Americans who feel ridiculed, shamed and even persecuted by the establishment and popular culture for holding on to their traditional notions of America. I don't think these people are necessarily "comfortable" being crude, but they feel compelled to express a defiant tribal pride against the phony and malicious moral superiority and manners of those who aspire to rule them and even it seems to destroy them and their values.

Posted by: rrpjr at July 09, 2015 05:52 PM (s/yC1)

478 Remember the film "Papillon" with Steve McQueen?

His character gets locked in a Devil's Island prison, and is basically given no food by the guards.

What does he do in response?

He starts to eat the cockroaches infesting his cell. He is so hungry that if he doesn't eat the cockroaches he'd starve to death.

Later in the film he is moved to a competely inaccessible outlying prison island surrounded entirely by cliffs, where he is allowed to live in a hut and grow his own food, with no guards on the island.

Question: Does he continue his cockraoch diet on the outlying island?

Answer: Of course not. He enjoys vegetable stew instead.

And if he escaped and made it back to civilization, would he continue to eat cockroaches - or even nothing but vegetable stew for that matter?

No. He'd eat steak and ice cream.

While in prison, he changed his dietary behavior to meet the situational demands. Cockroaches weren't his top choice, nor even his second choice -- heck, they were about his last choice for nutrition. But he was put in a situation where they were his only choice. So he chose cockroaches over death.

But eating is not the only basic human urge. Another is sexuality.

A straight guy out in the real world, given a plethora of choices, would choose a big-boobed narrow-waisted pretty young coed to help relieve his sexual urges.

But you can't always get that. So, he'd settle for a flat-chested pretty young coed, in a pinch.

None available? Well, a chubby coed with big boobs isn't so bad -- so he'd choose her.

Oops, he's stuck in a small town where all the chicks are ugly and fat. OK, so he'll settle for a slightly less ugly and slightly less fat one.

Oh wait, he's stranded on a tropical island with one woman, who's older than he is, fat and ugly.

OK, whadareya gonna do? It's have sex with her, or have no sex at all. So he settles for what's available.

But what if he was thrown in prison where there are NO women of any kind? None.

And he's young and horny and the testosterone is oozing out of his pores.

He jacks off in his bunk when he can, but then get get offers of blowjobs from other inmates.

Would getting a blowjob from a man be his first choice? No. Second choice? No. Third, forth or fifth choice? No.

But when it's his only choice, given his environment, he might just say yes, situationally, because the idea of being celibate for the rest of his life is just too depressing.

So, while in prison, he "turns gay."

But the moment he's out, hallelujah, he's surrounded by women again, and overnight he's straight once more.

What's the point?

People I believe are born straight or born gay, but under duress, are capable of "switching orientations" is extreme circumstances, if no other options are available.

The same thing happened in reverse for centuries when gay men in rural villages or towns with a lot of social pressure to be "normal" would get married and have sex with their wives, because there either were no other gay men in town, or because to engage in homosexuality was just too socially taboo to risk it.

Posted by: zombie at July 09, 2015 05:52 PM (jBuUi)

479 I work as hard as the next snake oil salesman, I'll have you know. Amorality is hard work, dammit.

Posted by: Mr. Foo Foo at July 09, 2015 05:52 PM (Dwehj)

480 You'll notice that the surgeon is completely covered and is attended by a coterie of nurses and techs. Technically he/she's getting dirty but walks away clean.

And sure there is not perfect analogy. So sue me.

Does the Surgeon wear a suit and tie when not operating?

Does most everyone working the floor know he's got more clout than they do?

You'll rarely find someone of the working classes going through the day without some dirt along the way. It's in the nature of the jobs they do.

Is homer simpson comfortable class or working class? He's in a white shirt but it's a drudge job and dangerous but the pay is better than expected and he may go home clean, most of the time.

Posted by: Bitter Clinger and All That at July 09, 2015 05:52 PM (x3GpS)

481 451 Well, I count Texas as Mid-West. So yeah, my "West" is Idaho, Montana, Wyoming, Arizona, New Mexico, Colorado, Nebraska, Utah, Nevada - The West.

----

This is the very first time I've ever heard the West described as excluding Texas and California.

El Paso actually has more in common culturally with New Mexico (though it's mostly very much it's own deal) than with the rest of Texas, and my parents are both from New Mexico (one by way of Old Mexico) and I gotta say I really disagree with your assessment at least pertaining to New Mexico. They express their class biases differently from Texans or New Yawkers, but they definitely have a ton of them.

Posted by: Jenny Enjoys Stereotypes at July 09, 2015 05:52 PM (rrG3v)

482 >>>Can you provide an example or two out of curiosity. I'm sure I would agree on some, not on others.

well occasionally we have outbursts of racial "jokes" here (which really aren't jokes, they are actual serious complaints slightly dressed up as a joke for purposes of deniability).

People know damn well this upsets those who subscribe to the UMC code on such matters; which seems to make them all the more determined and defiant to do it.

This shit really doesn't fly anymore.

Posted by: ace at July 09, 2015 05:53 PM (bhepQ)

483 Social conservatives are not necessarily "holy rollers."

But thanks for playing try again later.

Posted by: Seems Legit at July 09, 2015 05:53 PM (Xa4vS)

484 i don't think it's all about that but that is part of it, that is a consequence. the Comfortable Class is largely pro-choice, but they pretend to be Pro-life to be viable within a pro-life party.

-------

No doubt about that. It may just be a signifier -a big one.

Posted by: SH at July 09, 2015 05:53 PM (gmeXX)

485 I don't think anyone ever really grows up unless they have children.

Posted by: V the K at July 09, 2015 05:53 PM (c/Ipt)

486 Flaming skull inbound...

Posted by: doomed at July 09, 2015 05:53 PM (bGLSw)

487 471 SoCons, in general, believe in delayed gratification, hard work, fiscal responsibility, religious freedom, and moral decency.

When SoCons are attacked, there are the things that are being attacked.
Posted by: Gregory of Yardale at July 09, 2015 05:50 PM (c/Ipt)

___________

So if I don't believe in Jesus it means I don't work hard and I'm not fiscally conservative? Dude on what fucking planet do you live?

This is exactly why the GOP will never come together. SoCons attitudes are 100X worse than any leftist I know.

Posted by: HUCK / AKIN 2016 at July 09, 2015 05:53 PM (0LHZx)

488 "The first question (well, one of the first) people I just met ask me is, "where did you go to college?"

Wanna know how fcuked up Baltimore is?

Here, the question is intended to identify which High School.

Yes, two sixty year old strangers meet.
And it's important to them to know what High School they went to.

Every. fcuking. time.

Posted by: Village Idiot's Apprentice at July 09, 2015 05:54 PM (VPLuQ)

489 Speaking of crude:

Pennsylvania Man Caught Naked In Hog Barn Drunk on Hamms Beer

Posted by: logprof at July 09, 2015 05:11 PM

My best drinking has been while naked with hogs and/or, with naked hogs. Either way.

Posted by: Young Kiefer Sutherland's Ass at July 09, 2015 05:54 PM (ZcB5C)

490 415 ... And ACE has brought no new incite to this "problem",

Oh, I think Ace has brought PLENTY of "incite" to this problem!

Posted by: Noam Sayen at July 09, 2015 05:54 PM (FkgZk)

491 392 And I think it's a bit of NYish snobbery to assume the working class folks are the ones who are crude. I've seen a hell of lot more crude, rude behavior out of people who probably consider themselves high class. But they have no class at all.

*insert general manners rant here*
Posted by: Lea at July 09, 2015 05:30 PM (lIU4e)
---
I concur. Entitled princelings and their loinfruit are the worst.

Gotta say, where I live and work, folks are in general very polite, hold doors open, you first no you first no I must insist madam. And it's across income/racial lines.

Couldn't help but notice, many years ago when I joined the military, that poor Southerners were much more polite than upper middle class Yankees.

Posted by: All Hail Eris, Literate Savage at July 09, 2015 05:54 PM (jR7Wy)

492
At least in the recent past, and at least in SoCal, there most definitely *was* a huge difference with the east as far as class goes. I experienced it first-hand (starting mid-70s). Dramatic. Both class, and ethnic ID or focus. I was shocked to find out my college friends/housemates had any significant investment in being Italian or Irish for example - seemed bizarre. Intra-NE regionalism also dwarfed anything I'd ever seen where I grew up. And the economic class distinctions were stunning, and new.

Now? I'd say things have "converged", for the worse, i.e. coastal SoCal has become much much much more stratified.

A lot of this I attribute to the collapse of excellent public schools. Yes, Frances, such things did exist. And they often mixed all different classes, and even ethnicities.Growing up I never met *anyone* who went to private school (there were hardly any), not counting the one largish Catholic high school that was sort of like a public school anyway.

Today? Aside from the few offspring of friends who went to the very best, elite public schools (that are located in the elite coastal areas, and are very very different from the rest), EVERY kid I know went/is going to private school. It's a stunning change.

Add in the effects of (drum roll) mass illegal immigration, plus, in CA's case, mass LEGAL immigration, and you now have a very very much more stratified society. With much lousier education (for most). Part of this is due to the distinctive, if not unique, problem of Mexican non-assimilation (vs. other examples of past mass immigrations). So now my stomping grounds are vastly - unrecognizably - more class- and ethnicity-focused and divided than they ever were before.

Posted by: rhomboid at July 09, 2015 05:54 PM (QDnY+)

493 18 One decent candidate to rally around would solve this.
Posted by: West at July 09, 2015 04:40 PM (1Rgee)

Here's th e problem, though: there is no candidate that we can all rally around because the gap between the two classes is now too wide to bridge. The "Comfortable class" is, at it's core, leftist in all respects excepting they like big businesses. The "Working class" is lately still traditional in its mores and is looking more for burdens to be lifted on the small and medium-sized businesses and perhaps a reigning in of the gross monopoly many big businesses in this country have bought themselves via crawling into bed with both the D's and establishment R's.

Look, I'm related to people who would self-identify with the Comfortable class (although income-wise my nuclear family is technically comfortable and these relatives are in the working class). These folks, regardless of income, have the burning desire to be hip and up on the culture and will never, ever concede to more traditional ideas simply because that's so very gauche. I've tried and tried and tried to explain the logical reasons as to why the more traditional American life is the backbone of what has built this country and made it great and all I get in return is snide dismissal.

The gap is just too wide. The things people like me care about and are willing to defend are so far from what they care about and are willing to defend that I don't think it's possible to find a compromise anymore.

Posted by: Mandy P., lurking lurker who lurks at July 09, 2015 05:54 PM (KkVB6)

494 "You don't have the power you think you do.

And you're not as smart as you think you are, either."
Why don't you just ask Congressman Mike Flynn whether that's true, Ace.

Don't say stupid shit.

Posted by: Bullshit at July 09, 2015 05:55 PM (MT63T)

495 as has been said a thousand times: they did vote for him. Romney got a higher percentage of all white votes than Reagan did.

Posted by: ace

I have to respectfully disagree

All the exit polling data I saw shows he underperformed Republican turnout vs Bush in 2004.

I definitely think the patrician and Mormon factor cost him votes from our "normal" coalition.

Bush actually lost the independent vote in 2004 but he made up for it with Republicans

Romney won the independent vote handily (by 10 points in Ohio for example) and lost because of Republicans not turning out.

Vote total for Bush in 2004: 62,040,610
Vote total for Romney in 2012: 60,933,500

Had Romney delivered the Republicans Bush did WITH the independents he picked up, he would have handily beat Obama

Posted by: McAdams at July 09, 2015 05:55 PM (rE2PN)

496 Ace, as far as the fraction that thinks for itself, yeah, I'd put it at 10%, maybe 15%.

That will change shortly. See Greece. The point is to take the fucking field and FIGHT NOW so that when the time is right there is a banner for all of the currently brain dead to run to.

Posted by: prescient11 at July 09, 2015 05:55 PM (Au7Z/)

497 >>>486 Flaming skull inbound...

is this the 2nd hack story or is there something even worse coming?

Posted by: ace at July 09, 2015 05:55 PM (bhepQ)

498 On my way to work. Any flaming of my comments above @264 can be directed to me at the ONT tonight, where I will lurk/comment as work permits.

Posted by: Conservative Crank at July 09, 2015 05:55 PM (Gosad)

499 486
Flaming skull inbound...

Posted by: doomed at July 09, 2015 05:53 PM (bGLSw)
----What?

Posted by: gh at July 09, 2015 05:56 PM (YlqSL)

500 U T is high class, Texas A and M is low class

Posted by: thunderb at July 09, 2015 05:56 PM (zOTsN)

501 You are all, of course, mistaken. The two proper divisions are (primero) the working class and (segundo) kale.

Effin Kale.

Posted by: Generalissimo Francisco Franco at July 09, 2015 05:56 PM (Lrzm4)

502 Yes, this is an archaic idea; but human nature has not changed, I swear, for 100,000 years, so archaic ideas still accurately depict archaic humanity.

Soooo, stereotypes are generally true? Who knew?

We used to be able to move up in class. That was a big part of the American Dream. However this new breed of politician knows that there is power to be gained from division in a place where it didn't used to be.

These days, a lot of the people that I know who were Middle Class have been demoted to Lower Class thanks to imbecile politicians throttling the economy with communist-type control in the form of needless overregulation.

Posted by: BackwardsBoy, who did not vote for this sh1t at July 09, 2015 05:56 PM (eEb+d)

503 475 Seeing children as a cost and not a blessing is inherently evil.
Posted by: Caesar North of the Rubicon at July 09, 2015 05:49 PM (t2m1Y)

_________

No, it's realistic. Kids cost money, lots of it.
Posted by: HUCK / AKIN 2016 at July 09, 2015 05:51 PM (0LHZx)

So are you advocating for the murder of welfare recipients?

Posted by: AmishDude at July 09, 2015 05:56 PM (b65cm)

504 What movie is this?

Posted by: Sponge at July 09, 2015 05:57 PM (F4u7C)

505 The biggest mystery is why the LEFT's working class **doesn't** feel they're being bullied by the LEFT's Professional class.

When we all know how the Elites despise them at every level.

Posted by: Noam Sayen at July 09, 2015 05:57 PM (FkgZk)

506 Stay out of my Turkish bath, you damned socons!1!

Posted by: Mr. Foo Foo at July 09, 2015 05:57 PM (Dwehj)

507 Gee Ace, it must be nice to have everything all figured out like that.

As a white, blue-collar working class man in my early fifties who is -none- of the things you seem to think I am, I'm tempted to tell you to go fuck yourself'. But....being that this is your house, I will not.

-C

Posted by: cnation at July 09, 2015 05:57 PM (MsIBX)

508 So if I don't believe in Jesus it means I don't work
hard and I'm not fiscally conservative? Dude on what fucking planet do
you live?

This is exactly why the GOP will never come together. SoCons attitudes are 100X worse than any leftist I know.

Posted by: HUCK / AKIN

He was stating what SoCons believe not what you believe or what motivates you. The fact you'd side side with liberals over "those people" says a lot about you and the validity of your "arguments"

Posted by: Dr Spank at July 09, 2015 05:57 PM (TJCSB)

509 As for the divisions in conservative demographics -- heck, I've never really ever met a conservative in real life, so I know nothing about the whole topic.

The most "conservative" person I'd ever normally encounter is a mainstream liberal. From there, the spectrum only extends leftward, all the way out to "wild-eyed communist."

And needless to say, I hate all of them.

To meet a conservative, of any class, would be a miracle. Tears of relief would run down my cheeks.

Posted by: zombie at July 09, 2015 05:57 PM (jBuUi)

510 "I don't think it's all about that but that is part of it, that is a
consequence. the Comfortable Class is largely pro-choice, but they
pretend to be Pro-life to be viable within a pro-life party."

I think that in turn boils down to religiosity. The comfortable class is much less religious (in line with their Euro-leaning, urban hipster sensibilities). To the extent they're religious, it's mainline Protestantism or Pelosi-style cafeteria Catholicism (how dare you call me un-Catholic because I support partial birth abortion!!!!) The strong pro-life, socially conservative, anti-Big Ghey evangelical churches are in flyover country among my peeps, not in LA, NYC and DC, and you'll meet a lot more electricians and truck drivers in those pews than doctors, lawyers and professors.

Posted by: SocietyIs2Blame at July 09, 2015 05:57 PM (WIOql)

511 wow. Bulshit why the dickish behavior? because someone disagrees wth you

grow up

Posted by: thunderb at July 09, 2015 05:58 PM (zOTsN)

512 well occasionally we have outbursts of racial "jokes" here (which really aren't jokes, they are actual serious complaints slightly dressed up as a joke for purposes of deniability).

People know damn well this upsets those who subscribe to the UMC code on such matters; which seems to make them all the more determined and defiant to do it.

This shit really doesn't fly anymore.

------

I think I know where you are coming from. And there are some classless jokes / tone / statements that I suspect in general offend most people in both the classes you described. There are some jackasses among us. And to be frank, many of us have been the jackasses - though hopefully that is rare. There are times to be called out on it and to apologize.

But no doubt there are conversations that are had at my dinner parties that would be considered gauche at others.

Posted by: SH at July 09, 2015 05:58 PM (gmeXX)

513 How is it that the left wing,containing factions that hate each other more than the factions on the right,are able to always move their agenda forward?

Posted by: steevy at July 09, 2015 05:58 PM (sPO3u)

514 48 That graphic is called "Cake and Compromise" and it waswritten by Lawdog and I found this copy at Everday No Days Off: http://tinyurl.com/op3yp2c

Posted by: MAx at July 09, 2015 05:58 PM (YJeFl)

515 469 as long as we are talking class, what class is the JEF?

Clearly upper middle if not upper upper class

but dems sold him as lower class because black

how is that not racist
Posted by: thunderb at July 09, 2015 05:50 PM (zOTsN)

--When he's droppin' g's and otherwise shuckin' and jivin' he's BWC (Black Welfare Class) and Down With The Struggle; when he's cocking his chin he's CCD (Comfortable Class Democrat).

Posted by: logprof at July 09, 2015 05:58 PM (gcE+A)

516 >>>he biggest mystery is why the LEFT's working class **doesn't** feel they're being bullied by the LEFT's Professional class.

because they just have accepted that the White Professional Class rules them.

The Democrats sure aren't going to let any minorities control things -- sure, Obama, but there are 10,000 jobs to be filled by white progs. Those are staying in white hands.

Posted by: ace at July 09, 2015 05:58 PM (bhepQ)

517 At least once a month Ace likes to insult his readers. I guess that is today.

Go Trump! Burn the mother down!

Posted by: Misfortune & Pestilence at July 09, 2015 05:58 PM (vkf6y)

518 I don't know that I would call that a class system so much, just because
the numbers are small. It strikes me as more like small-town politics
and more personal than anything else.

I probably stopped typing too soon but it's not just politics. Town I grew up in had an annual festival with a queen pageant. Any high school girl just completed her junior year could enter. When I was 10 or so, they got some judges from outside the area and they chose as the queen a girl with a good performance in the talent competition and a nice personality...but her family was considered "low class". Huge scandal, protests. They had to let her serve the term and represent the town in the Miss Iowa pageant because those were the rules, but they never had a judge from out of town ever again.

The year I was a junior all the finalists were vicious talentless bitches, but they were in the town's Brahmin class equivalent, so hey, all good.

Posted by: HR braucht ein Bier at July 09, 2015 05:58 PM (ZKzrr)

519 Effin Kale-istas.

You'll be putting it in guacamole next, along with the green peas.

Posted by: Generalissimo Francisco Franco at July 09, 2015 05:59 PM (Lrzm4)

520 >>>But no doubt there are conversations that are had at my dinner parties that would be considered gauche at others.

the rules of a truly private discussion among friends are different from the rules of public discussions had among strangers.

Posted by: ace at July 09, 2015 05:59 PM (bhepQ)

521
"If you don;t understand why Reps do better in mid-terms than in general elections you are a very unintelligent person."

The occupant of the oval office has nothing to do with it, right? Is that why the Reps did so well in 2006?

Posted by: Benji Carver at July 09, 2015 05:59 PM (OD2ni)

522 Wow. I just learned that SoCon is code for "Christian."

SoCon bashing is actually Christian-bashing.

I can't believe I didn't figure that out before.

Posted by: V the K at July 09, 2015 05:59 PM (c/Ipt)

523 At least in the recent past, and at least in SoCal, there most definitely *was* a huge difference with the east as far as class goes. I experienced it first-hand (starting mid-70s). Dramatic. Both class, and ethnic ID or focus. I was shocked to find out my college friends/housemates had any significant investment in being Italian or Irish for example - seemed bizarre. Intra-NE regionalism also dwarfed anything I'd ever seen where I grew up.

---

This is how I felt when I ended up in Floresville TX at 15. At that time, people were annoyed that I wasn't German or Polish. The classes there weren't any different from El Paso, except that they were more explicitly racial and ethnic (German > Polish. Fcuk if I know why)

Posted by: Jenny Enjoys Stereotypes at July 09, 2015 05:59 PM (rrG3v)

524 The old story about the religious guy praying for rescue applies.
He's on his rooftop in a flood, praying to God to save him.
A man in a boat passes by and offers to save him.
He declines, saying God will save him.
A helicopter dangles a rope, but he waves it off, waiting for God to save him.
Finally the flood waters engulf him and he dies.
He repriaches God for not saving him.
God says, I sent a boat and a helicopter, but you refused to be saved.

Maybe Mitt was our man in a boat, and maybe Trump is the helicopter pilot.

Posted by: @votermom at July 09, 2015 06:00 PM (6tn7e)

525 "To meet a conservative, of any class, would be a miracle. Tears of relief would run down my cheeks."

I'd be glad to wear a conspicuous t-shirt next time I'm up that way next month but I'd probably get taken down at the airport.

Do we have a handshake or a secret symbol or something?

Posted by: SocietyIs2Blame at July 09, 2015 06:00 PM (WIOql)

526
Only a dildo would be personally insulted by this post.

Posted by: Soothsayer of the Righteous And Harmonious Fists at July 09, 2015 06:00 PM (OWhnJ)

527 I think I got sucked into a troll situation, sorry.

Posted by: Seems Legit at July 09, 2015 06:01 PM (Xa4vS)

528 Thanks, moo moo, I wanted to wipe out lower class whites like that Irish shit too not just darkies.

Posted by: zombie margaret sanger at July 09, 2015 06:01 PM (kivUY)

529 because they just have accepted that the White Professional Class rules them.

The Democrats sure aren't going to let any minorities control things -- sure, Obama, but there are 10,000 jobs to be filled by white progs. Those are staying in white hands.

Obama's a white guy, really.

Posted by: AmishDude at July 09, 2015 06:01 PM (b65cm)

530 is this the 2nd hack story or is there something even worse coming?

I was thinking 2nd "hack" (yeah, right, "hack") but there's always something worse coming!

Posted by: doomed at July 09, 2015 06:01 PM (bGLSw)

531 >>>At least once a month Ace likes to insult his readers. I guess that is today.

Go Trump! Burn the mother down!

...

which readers?

The funny thing is, of course, that this post mostly went after the UMC; but of course it's mostly members of the class-conscious WWC who are getting knickers in a twist and getting, as usual, offended and resentful.

Chips on shoulders, chips on shoulders.

I really do think sometimes I'm writing for an audience comprised at least partly of Social Justice Warriors of the Right.

It's this class-based, You Think You're Better Than Me? shit that drives me crazy.

Posted by: ace at July 09, 2015 06:01 PM (bhepQ)

532 >>Romney won the independent vote handily (by 10 points in Ohio for example) and lost because of Republicans not turning out.

>>Vote total for Bush in 2004: 62,040,610
Vote total for Romney in 2012: 60,933,500

Part of the problem with analysis such as this is it assumes that voter id doesn't change. According to Gallup, about 30% self-identified as Republican in 2000. By 2012 that number was down to 25% and Independent had gone from 32 to 42%. A lot of those Independents used to be Republicans. I'm one of them.

Posted by: JackStraw at July 09, 2015 06:02 PM (OGm46)

533 the rules of a truly private discussion among friends are different from the rules of public discussions had among strangers.

-----

Agree - be appropriate for the time and place.

Posted by: SH at July 09, 2015 06:02 PM (gmeXX)

534 "There are some jackasses among us. And to be frank, many of us have been the jackasses - though hopefully that is rare. There are times to be called out on it and to apologize. "

Let's keep the comments Working Class.

This would be much different place if everyone needed to walk on eggshells, worried about whose sensitivities they might offend next.

Posted by: jwest at July 09, 2015 06:02 PM (9ZZd+)

535 516 I guess that's it.In effect,they accept the lower status in return for government goodies.

Posted by: steevy at July 09, 2015 06:02 PM (sPO3u)

536 >>There's a reason Daryl is the most popular character on TWD.

There's also a reason that Daryl knows that he's better suited/more comfortable in post-zombie apocalypse than pre-apocalypse.

What's funny is that there have been a lot of shows where they include a cartoonishly conservative/non-PC character and they end up being one of, if not, the most enjoyable character. Daryl, Ron Swanson on Parks and Rec, Jack Donaghy on 30 Rock. They retain their weirdo conservative views, and yet the main Lefty character always comes to depend on them. Why is that?

Posted by: Lizzy at July 09, 2015 06:02 PM (NOIQH)

537 I spent 4 years basically living and working in the south and I saw the exact same thing there. Auburn vs Alabama, FSU vs Miami .. it is endless. And it had a lot to do with class not just football.

Posted by: JackStraw at July 09, 2015 05:51 PM (OGm46)

Want to see class divide in the South based on college? Mississippi State vs Ole Miss. Mississippi State exists because when UM opened an Ag School, no one enrolled. No one. None of he farm boys wanted to go to college with the uppity, snotty rich kids. And that still really hasn't changed.

When I was deciding where to go to school, both of those were in my final list. Had identical scholarship offers from each school.

Took a trip to UM; all the questions I got from the "student tour guide" were concerning, "What does your father do?", "What kind of car do you have?", etc.

Trip to MSU: "What do you want to major in?", "What are your post-collegiate career aspirations?", etc.

Posted by: Country Singer at July 09, 2015 06:02 PM (nL0sw)

538 478 People I believe are born straight or born gay, but under duress, are capable of "switching orientations" is extreme circumstances

No doubt many people feel they were born gay. That is not the same as homosexuality being genetically determined. If homosexuality were genetically determined, then every gay man's identical twin would also be gay, but they are not.

You ought to adjust your beliefs to account for all of the evidence. This does not mean you have to change your stance on gay marriage, your behavior, etc., just your reasons.

Obviously, eventually the Left will say people should be able to choose to be gay whether it is genetic or not. Why not jump there right away and save yourself all the intermediate steps of the journey?

Posted by: Captain Oblivious at July 09, 2015 06:03 PM (hiT/m)

539 I don't think it's NYC snobbery, more NYC insularity. Sure, an NYC'er lives in a place that is among the most diverse/polyglot on the planet, but they still get most of their information about the outside world second or third hand. When all you've ever seen of the South is a Larry The Cable Guy Comedy Special, you're as ignorant about the South as you were before the show, but somehow feel like you're in on the joke.

Posted by: LincolnTf at July 09, 2015 06:03 PM (2cS/G)

540 Add in the effects of (drum roll) mass illegal immigration, plus, in CA's case, mass LEGAL immigration, and you now have a very very much more stratified society. With much lousier education (for most). Part of this is due to the distinctive, if not unique, problem of Mexican non-assimilation (vs. other examples of past mass immigrations). So now my stomping grounds are vastly - unrecognizably - more class- and ethnicity-focused and divided than they ever were before.
Posted by: rhomboid at July 09, 2015 05:54 PM (QDnY+)
----
My father's family was part of that massive influx of southern European immigrants that came over at the beginning of the last century and up to WWI. He remembered very sharp ethnic demarcation lines between neighborhoods and friction between natives and the immigrants and their American-born children. There was a feeling that this new batch had alien cultural values and there was a real push to halt immigration and assimilate. I bet we're about to go through something similar.

Posted by: All Hail Eris, Literate Savage at July 09, 2015 06:03 PM (jR7Wy)

541 So if I'm up on things, the two warring classes are defined based on what Ace hates about groups of people?

Posted by: rebel flounder at July 09, 2015 06:03 PM (Vf5rR)

542 I drive a Prius. I can't be a racist !

Posted by: Elaine Benice at July 09, 2015 06:03 PM (9mTYi)

543 GOPe, he called you queer. Said at Casillas you took it up the ass.

Posted by: Detective Lieutenant Ed Exley at July 09, 2015 06:04 PM (amQXf)

544 I don't think anyone ever really grows up unless they have children.

It doesn't guarantee that someone will act like an adult, I've noticed.

Posted by: HR braucht ein Bier at July 09, 2015 06:04 PM (ZKzrr)

545 482 >>>Can you provide an example or two out of curiosity. I'm sure I would agree on some, not on others.

well occasionally we have outbursts of racial "jokes" here (which really aren't jokes, they are actual serious complaints slightly dressed up as a joke for purposes of deniability).

People know damn well this upsets those who subscribe to the UMC code on such matters; which seems to make them all the more determined and defiant to do it.

This shit really doesn't fly anymore.

---

I'd point to threads involving Duck Dynasty

Posted by: Jenny Enjoys Stereotypes at July 09, 2015 06:04 PM (rrG3v)

546
I mean, really, how people read shit and say to themselves Why he's talking about ME and now I feel personally offended! is beyond my comprehension.

Posted by: Soothsayer of the Righteous And Harmonious Fists at July 09, 2015 06:04 PM (OWhnJ)

547 522: Its low maintenance bigotry. Easy, simple, and you get to keep your head. You still get to have that nice warm feeling that self righteousness brings.

Posted by: Puddleglum at July 09, 2015 06:04 PM (AW46C)

548 UMC, WWC - I'm more confused than Caitlyn Jenner. I self-identify with a lot of different characteristics of both.

Posted by: SH at July 09, 2015 06:04 PM (gmeXX)

549 But no doubt there are conversations that are had at my dinner parties that would be considered gauche at others.

Shit, if it's going to be that kind of party, I'm going to stick my dick in the mashed potatoes!
- Mantan Moreland (not comfortable class)

Posted by: wooga at July 09, 2015 06:05 PM (skLky)

550
Ace, you forgot to mention the Easily Offended Class within the GOP.

Posted by: Soothsayer of the Righteous And Harmonious Fists at July 09, 2015 06:05 PM (OWhnJ)

551 Ace hates me

but I can't leave him.

Posted by: Mark in Portland at July 09, 2015 06:05 PM (DpRZj)

552 GOPe, he said you were a seesee.

Posted by: Detective Lieutenant Ed Exley at July 09, 2015 06:05 PM (bhepQ)

553 I put Miracle Whip on my hot dogs.

Posted by: Young Kiefer Sutherland's Ass at July 09, 2015 06:05 PM (ZcB5C)

554 The actual last words of Kurtz in "The Heart of Darkness"?

"The kale! The kale!"

Don't even get me started on arugula.

Posted by: Generalissimo Francisco Franco at July 09, 2015 06:06 PM (Lrzm4)

555 Posted by: @votermom at July 09, 2015 06:00 PM (6tn7e)

Nice. I like that.

Posted by: Bitter Clinger and All That at July 09, 2015 06:06 PM (x3GpS)

556 That will change shortly. See Greece. The point is to take the fucking field and FIGHT NOW so that when the time is right there is a banner for all of the currently brain dead to run to.

You would think so. But then you have Republican presidential candidates who fought for housing loan accountability suspending their campaign and fighting to bail out the unaccountable when they turn out to have been right.

Posted by: Stephen Price Blair at July 09, 2015 06:06 PM (J0IP0)

557 What the hell did I just read?

Posted by: TexasJew at July 09, 2015 06:06 PM (ZLAox)

558 It better be the best fucking podcast ever.

Posted by: weft cut-loop at July 09, 2015 06:06 PM (VY8H5)

559
People I believe are born straight or born gay

Nonsense.

Posted by: Soothsayer of the Righteous And Harmonious Fists at July 09, 2015 06:07 PM (OWhnJ)

560 >>>Ace, you forgot to mention the Easily Offended Class within the GOP.

an exhausting group.

the same people who will say Trump wasn't the least bit insulting to mexicans by saying "They're rapists... and some, I assume, are decent people" will go off on me for chiding both sides in the class war to tune down the hatred.

It's like the gay thing -- tolerance isn't enough, only full-throated validation is acceptable.

I'm not part of this stupid fight. I hate both sides. So sorry, but if you're a partisan for one side, you'll have to get your affirmation and validation elsewhere.

Posted by: ace at July 09, 2015 06:07 PM (bhepQ)

561 544 I don't think anyone ever really grows up unless they have children.

It doesn't guarantee that someone will act like an adult, I've noticed.

---

Yeah. I think it's fair to say that a lot of people grow up real quick when they have a kid. Really it's not the act of having a kid that does it; it's the "oh shit this really matters" moment. That moment can be found in plenty of situations

Posted by: Jenny Enjoys Stereotypes at July 09, 2015 06:07 PM (rrG3v)

562 Ace doesn't like when people he describes as "low class" and "crude" take his insults as being insulting.

Film at eleven.

Posted by: Inspector Cussword at July 09, 2015 06:07 PM (ukTrJ)

563 I had a Prius. I named it Rance.

Posted by: Oh my achin' Huck at July 09, 2015 06:08 PM (W5DcG)

564 "And the Comfortable Class Right screamed even louder about it, because Ben Carson was embarrassing them in front of their liberal friends."
---------------------------------

Know what? Tough S@#$% Comfortable Class. Your survival depends on the Working Class at so many levels. Your income is derived from the Working Class (sorry a dentist getting his taxes done by the CPA does not an economy make). Your political power is derived from the Working Class by the perception that you have a marginal control over the larger body politic. Your lever with the Working Class is the perception, wrongly by the Working Class, they you can maneuver the levers of power in their favor. (and they are on to you on that score now.)

Another words, love it now because over the passage of time your ass is grass. Either through disgust or automation your ranks are shrinking day by day. Own it.

Posted by: JohnMc at July 09, 2015 06:08 PM (ZVUS/)

565
ace, wow big piece of reality you bit off to chew here, more than I can even focus on, but two smallish things..

Thing one. What are you referring to when you talk about WWC crudeness or unapologetic aggressive stuff? I just have no idea. Note: I am SO sequestered from most pop culture, most processed American cheese product "news", etc., that I could miss many references that would be obvious to 95% of the country.

Thing two. "we" DO win elections. That of course is your/many others recurring theme here. The GOP, at least, wins plenty of elections without any grand compromise or any other fancy footwork. They even win historical outlier elections (2010, 2014), where the breadth and scope of their victories rank in the top 2 or 3 such events in our entire national history.

Oh. And "we" win other votes, too. Marriage redefinition. NOT a national winner. An actual winner in a handful of jurisdictions, representing a small % of the national populace. Just as an example.

And then. Then judicial tyranny over-rules the voters (on marriage, on many many other things). And the national elected GOP ...... hides, flip-flops, "betrays" its constituents. It votes to remove Confederate flags from national parks, and frets about gettinga highway bill passed to "show it can govern" - while the national fiscalcollapse proceeds, the race-baiting violent catastrophic lawlessness of illegal mass immigration continues and is abetted by federal authorities, the already-distorted beyond recognition medical finance system is tortured with Khmer Rouge-level idiocy from the center, the greatest self-initiated foreign policy disaster in national history unfolds.

"we" (covers a lot of ground) win lots of elections, even recently. With, literally, ZERO apparent impact on results.

Posted by: rhomboid at July 09, 2015 06:09 PM (QDnY+)

566 I mean, really, how people read shit and say to themselves Why he's talking about ME and now I feel personally offended! is beyond my comprehension.

Posted by: Soothsayer
------------

Okay..., now I take that personally.

Posted by: Mike Hammer, etc., etc. at July 09, 2015 06:09 PM (9mTYi)

567 theres plenty to be mad about but some people are addicted to rage

Posted by: thunderb at July 09, 2015 06:09 PM (zOTsN)

568 (German > Polish. Fcuk if I know why)
Posted by: Jenny Enjoys Stereotypes at July 09, 2015 05:59 PM (rrG3v)
---
The Great Sausage Wars. Still not over in the Midwest.

Posted by: All Hail Eris, Literate Savage at July 09, 2015 06:09 PM (jR7Wy)

569 Ok Ace, I get your point....except....your side has already won, over and over and over.

The gauche, Christian, classless, Conservatives are a beaten bunch. We get it, totally. You guys don't want us as Republicans, and soon all of us will be dead anyway, and our children and grandchildren will be raised by the culture you wanted! So won't be a problem.

You have abortion, homosexual marriage, kids are taught anal sex is normal and natural, heck, kids can now get sex changes, no more icky prayer in schools or local community meetings, HS graduations, and on and on.

So I don't get why you wrote this today?

Posted by: pam at July 09, 2015 06:09 PM (EAZ7y)

570 The politicians don't make the slightest effort to pander to the WWC (white working class h/t sean trende) any longer.

First the Dems in '08 kicked the 'ethnic' WWC voters to the curb and since '14, the GOP seems to be to be going full throttle emulating the '08 Dem tactic of turning out every other demographic in a block while depressing/suppressing WWC turnout (GIP does this in primaries just like Drms do in the General)

Having it constantly demonstrated to you that you are not important, Unnecessary and more than that, loathed by a group of schmucks who consider themselves gentry, by both parties, leaves a wide opportunity for Trump to sew up the WWC/ Reagan Dem votes if he runs third party #JustSayin

As the inimitable Frisco Jones/Jack Wagner would say/sing

Make me believe it!
When you hoooold me hold me tight
I wanna feel it!
When you loooove me love me right

Posted by: ginaswo at July 09, 2015 06:09 PM (JV3cM)

571 Is it Festivus already?

Posted by: Randy M at July 09, 2015 06:09 PM (iwy8d)

572 Trump really needs to tone down the divisiveness--maybe not during primaries, but if he got the nom, he'd have to act less like Chris Christie. He would have to beat Hillary with a smile, not a scowl or a nasty jibe.

It's not about how smart and nasty you can be as you win the argument; it's about how nice you can appear.

That's why that nasty fraud Hillary always has a fake smile.

And if Trump ever tried to engage with her on an antagonistic level, she absolutely would not respond in kind, because even if she lost the point, she'd win the argument by avoiding the nastiness.

I don't know if Trump can do that. I hope he realizes he, in fact, still has things to learn.

Posted by: rdbrewer at July 09, 2015 06:10 PM (Iyg03)

573 I have to take the time to read more of the comments (did the first 100 or so, busy w kids), but my 2 cents...

I agree with Ace that there's a culture war in the GOP. I'm not sure I'd identify the sides as he does.

I'd stretch the comfortable class across party lines. The GOP comfortable class are the ones with some patriotism, the Dem ones don't have that (the classic anti-American liberal elite). Other than that one difference, they're not too different, and that's why the GOPe leadership is so happy to work with the Dem leadership: they're basically the same, except one wears their flags with more irony than the other.

I think the entire comfortable class, both sides, holds working stiffs in absolute contempt as sort of unclean morlocks.

Posted by: Agent J at July 09, 2015 06:10 PM (ueOgE)

574 >>So sorry, but if you're a partisan for one side, you'll have to get your affirmation and validation elsewhere.

Validation? I come here for the abuse. I'm a northeast RINO scum after all.

Posted by: JackStraw at July 09, 2015 06:10 PM (OGm46)

575 I mean, really, how people read shit and say to themselves Why he's talking about ME and now I feel personally offended! is beyond my comprehension.

------

Well on the last thread he did tell me to blow him.

Posted by: SH at July 09, 2015 06:10 PM (gmeXX)

576 "I'm a college educated, licensed professional with an IQ on the higher end of the scale and grew up in upper middle class surroundings.

"I'm crude and blunt with my views and I support Trump and his bomb throwing."

Is that you, Bill?

Posted by: Bernadine at July 09, 2015 06:10 PM (+jijM)

577
and I'll add vulgar to the list of descriptors...

You know, sometimes a little honest introspection is healthy.

Posted by: Soothsayer of the Righteous And Harmonious Fists at July 09, 2015 06:10 PM (OWhnJ)

578 I think it's fair to say that a lot of people grow up real quick when they have a kid.

A lot don't.

Posted by: HR braucht ein Bier at July 09, 2015 06:11 PM (ZKzrr)

579 Oh, and a big second on the Ole Miss/State post above - it absolutely does serve as a class marker within the Magnolia State.

Well, that and the fact that Ole Miss is the state's flagship university, while State is -well, I actually thought it was a cautionary tale to make children study harder.

Posted by: Generalissimo Francisco Franco at July 09, 2015 06:11 PM (Lrzm4)

580 They need you too, obviously.

Posted by: ace at July 09, 2015 05:12 PM (bhepQ)

You get it being said that way because the Republican candidates are saying nothing....NOTHING. They aren't saying how sanctuary cities have to go. They aren't saying the illegal flood has to stop. They offer cliches and move on. The WC is tired of the "nation of immigrants" pablum. At some point you have to shut the door.

Posted by: WOPR at July 09, 2015 06:11 PM (nRvEn)

581 Heh. Heh. Full-throated gay validation.

Posted by: beavis at July 09, 2015 06:12 PM (kivUY)

582 Part of the problem with analysis such as this is it assumes that voter id doesn't change. According to Gallup, about 30% self-identified as Republican in 2000. By 2012 that number was down to 25% and Independent had gone from 32 to 42%. A lot of those Independents used to be Republicans. I'm one of them.

Posted by: JackStraw

The fact though that Romney got something like 2 million less votes than a Republican in 2004 despite a larger US population tells me something happened with our coalition.

I don't think Bush just did much better with swing voters, I think their turnout operation was just a lot better.

I think we ultimately lost because of a poor ground game.

Posted by: McAdams at July 09, 2015 06:12 PM (rE2PN)

583 "as has been said a thousand times: they did vote for him. Romney got a higher percentage of all white votes than Reagan did.

Of those who voted. Almost 7 million whites fewer whites voted. (91 vs. 98 million). And Reagan won 56% of his white voters vs. Romney's 59%. Non-white turnout was largely similar between the 2008 and 2012 races.

Percentages only tell part of the story, and hardly prove the point that the GOP "must win minority votes." It's true that over 20 years the white population has gone from 87% to 75% but turnout and population aren't synonymous.

Posted by: SocietyIs2Blame at July 09, 2015 06:12 PM (WIOql)

584
Dammit, sometimes some of you can infuriate me. I could just...

just...

lick you, y'all make me so mad.

Posted by: Soothsayer of the Righteous And Harmonious Fists at July 09, 2015 06:12 PM (OWhnJ)

585 >>>Ace doesn't like when people he describes as "low class" and "crude" take his insults as being insulting.

Film at eleven.

...

casual racial slurs, dressed up as "jokes," are in fact "low crass" and "Crude;" sorry you're just hearing about this now, hoss.

And yes, saying of Mexicans, "They're rapists... and some, I assume, are decent people" is crude and insulting, and if you think that's not crude and insulting, you should have NO PROBLEMO with what I've said.

Posted by: ace at July 09, 2015 06:12 PM (bhepQ)

586 I self identify as white scum. But, I am polite.

Posted by: Ronster at July 09, 2015 06:12 PM (NMV/A)

587 well occasionally we have outbursts of racial "jokes" here (which really aren't jokes, they are actual serious complaints slightly dressed up as a joke for purposes of deniability).

People know damn well this upsets those who subscribe to the UMC code on such matters; which seems to make them all the more determined and defiant to do it.

This shit really doesn't fly anymore.
------------------------------
As one of those knuckle dragging, mouth breathing blue collar conservatives that so many here look down on, I like good racial joke now and again. As do most of my black friends.
(And I'm maybe the least racist person here).

But when REAL racism shows it's head here? Don't dare call anyone on it. I myself have been run off the blog on a rail for pointing out (respected) regulars' racist screeds.

Posted by: Chi at July 09, 2015 06:13 PM (1VFvU)

588 568 (German > Polish. Fcuk if I know why)
Posted by: Jenny Enjoys Stereotypes at July 09, 2015 05:59 PM (rrG3v)
---
The Great Sausage Wars. Still not over in the Midwest.

---

Poles won that one, in Wilson County anyway. That place introduced me to the wonder that is Taco Polacko (get your minds outta the gutter) a breakfast taco made with Polish Sausage. Which is always made and sold by a Mexican. Go figure.

Posted by: Jenny Enjoys Stereotypes at July 09, 2015 06:13 PM (rrG3v)

589 I think we ultimately lost because of a poor ground game.
Posted by: McAdams at July 09, 2015 06:12 PM (rE2PN)

-----

Let's not overthink this. Romney was just a bad candidate.

A good guy - might have been a great President. But he was a lousy candidate. Too many people were voting for him because he wasn't the other guy - not because they wanted to vote for him.

Posted by: SH at July 09, 2015 06:13 PM (gmeXX)

590
Seriously, though, we've got to stop being pussies. Today. Like, now.

Posted by: Soothsayer of the Righteous And Harmonious Fists at July 09, 2015 06:13 PM (OWhnJ)

591 >>>f those who voted. Almost 7 million whites fewer whites voted. (91 vs. 98 million). And Reagan won 56% of his white voters vs. Romney's 59%. Non-white turnout was largely similar between the 2008 and 2012 races.

hm, i did not know this...

Posted by: ace at July 09, 2015 06:13 PM (bhepQ)

592 and yes, palin could not stop from merely having the working class as
her center of power; she had to take the next step of actively insulting
the other classes.

========

Dunno, Ace. I've heard Palin insult Dems and crony capitalists, but I've not heard her attacking professionals and upper middle-class managers and entrepreneurs. In fact, she's championed them, early and often. And she doesn't have a problem hobnobbing with wealthy people at Triple Crown horse races or at DC fundraisers, either.

But if you have a cite for her attacking the upper middle class folks in private practice/industry, I'll take that into account.

Posted by: mrp at July 09, 2015 06:13 PM (JBggj)

593 It's this class-based, You Think You're Better Than Me? shit that drives me crazy.

The UMC use their degrees to protect their ego ("I may be a barista, but I have a degree from Vassar!"). That's why they denigrate actual wealth as a class signifier.

The WWC are like small dicked guys, always insecure and lashing out at anyone who pokes fun at their fragile egos. Dressing up in camo and waving confederate flags are simply 'over compensating' acts of macho rebelliousness, no different than getting a tribal tattoo or corvette.

Posted by: wooga at July 09, 2015 06:14 PM (skLky)

594 Posted by: Generalissimo Francisco Franco at July 09, 2015 06:11 PM (Lrzm4)

The height of TSUN's utility is being the place where kids that couldn't get into U of Texas go.

Posted by: Country Singer at July 09, 2015 06:14 PM (nL0sw)

595 Abuse me, misuse me but don't confuse me.

Posted by: Bitter Clinger and All That at July 09, 2015 06:14 PM (x3GpS)

596 560
Ok, there you go with LYING
Trump said not of "mexicans" but of "Illegal immigrants from Mexico".

ONE IS NOT THE OTHER, and the meaning is quite different. One - the LIE you are telling - is an insult to a country's entire decendents.

The other - the TRUE statement you are LYING about, Ace - is a sub-section of the first - and one that is TRUE.

Illegals are being dumped by the Mexican Government - in violation of Treaty - in order to gain hard currency AND they include hard core criminals, rapists, and murderers who just got out of prison many times. That's the truth -but since you don't live on the fucking border, you get your "truth" from assholes on Television and from Delaware.

Trump did not typify ALL mexicans as X Y and Z. Your repeating that gross LIE is why people are pissed at you and the lying media.

Why are they saying "He said things that were right?" Because he did and you are repeating a gross lie, Ace.

Posted by: Inspector Cussword at July 09, 2015 06:14 PM (ukTrJ)

597 The funny thing is, of course, that this post mostly went after the UMC;
but of course it's mostly members of the class-conscious WWC who are
getting knickers in a twist and getting, as usual, offended and
resentful.

Ace, take another look at the length of your post and think about how much of the anti regular guy stuff us regular guys have to get through before we'd get to the allegedly anti-UMC stuff.

And for those that got there, your 'criticism' of your people is basically 'we should behave better than those guys because we *are* better than those guys.'

Posted by: Methos at July 09, 2015 06:14 PM (ZbV+0)

598 Kind late to the party, but I'd like to point out that ace's definition of class as a cultural/tribal affiliation is pretty close to the currently most popular academic model, which defines class in terms of groups of relationships.

The older models tended to draw on Marx's definition of class as how close you were to the means of production.

Posted by: Grey Fox at July 09, 2015 06:14 PM (a42f0)

599 "The Upper Middle Class is filled with low-level people who don't make much money -- but they do consider themselves socially superior to the Working Class."

Exactly - basically describes the typical beta male faggot sjw to a T

Posted by: Ben H at July 09, 2015 06:15 PM (4R+mh)

600 7 million less between 2008 and 2012 - Romney lost a large number of white voters who stayed home and thus didn't get counted in his "percentage."

Posted by: SocietyIs2Blame at July 09, 2015 06:15 PM (WIOql)

601 And, because I am in a perpetual bad mood, I will address, as your Queen, the social issue.

It IS possible to be raised in the deep South and not be either racist or a snob to social class. If I had to identify my family with class, I'd say upper middle class, educated. I did not see true poverty (in public school) until moving to the country where my father had land. In the city I was oblivious to being either a snob or poor. Hell, maybe we were poor and I was just oblivious. My grandmother made all of my clothes. I had seasonal wardrobes because of her, but she was not wealthy (but could sew as well as anyone alive). I was a happy and lucky child.

The poverty I finally noted was at lunch. I had one of those snazzy tartan metal lunch boxes. Across from me (in 5th grade) were two sisters, one had failed a grade. They had mayonnaise sandwiches and looked at my lunch (cheese sandwich, potato chips, apple...same thing all the time because that is what I ate. On cold days tomato soup in a thermos). They had the same soft and greasy paper sack week to week. I don't think I gawked, and I, for sure, did not mock (as I was/am a kind person----how I was raised in whatever class I was born to). I would often give the skinnier of the sisters half a sandwich because I felt bad and had never heard of a mayo sandwich. She was one of 18 children from what I heard. That was poverty to me.

I also can defend my non-racist family and friends as I did ask what (the heck) the white and colored water fountains were about as I really wanted blue or green water sometimes. My family owned a grocery store in the black section of town. I was raised with black people. Some, yes employed, I love as much as my own family. That, for those of you who don't know, do not care to know, or bought into the media back into the sixties til now, is how it was for everyone I knew in my bubble. To this day I do not know a white racist. I WEPT when I read of the murders in Charleston. It was the first thing that I felt was grief for those people at church...I did not care what color they were. They were Christians, not people on the front line in Iraq who know they may die (on the other hand, they, and how that city and their families forgave the hell-bent jackal, personify Christianity). Now, in 2015, my family, my sons, have black friends. Can all of you who sling stones and stale judging at Southerners say that? I went to school with black kids. One black guy was the most successful of all graduates of our small high school. He outdid them all (and there are many doctors, attorneys, teachers, nurses,businessmen and women. He became both a doctor AND an attorney. At a class reunion, in this deep heart of Dixie, we all enjoyed seeing each other.

So, darlings, keep your class war to yourselves and stop blaming the South. Sure there are people who would not vote for Romney (I did). Sure. But it was not due to "class" but more due to his religion, as they were bigots of their own choosing. I do know bigots, Southern and Yankee. But I have to say I know more bigots who are so due to their stale beliefs in stereotyping people like me.

Oh, and ps, it is way too early and way too hot to expend any or much energy or thought as to a nominee. I am sick of politics but will vote for whoever vs any Democrat any day. xoxo

Posted by: ChristyBlinky,aging Redneck Queen supermodel, has a Hobbit foot at July 09, 2015 06:16 PM (5br9Q)

602 "It's this class-based, You Think You're Better Than Me? shit that drives me crazy."

I was making the point that there are a lot of people here who assume that Trump supporters are uneducated and middle class because, of course, the middle class couldn't possibly be educated. *Thurston Howell III sniff*

They are establishment lickers who need to insult the middle class in their own snobbish ignorance.

I'm upper middle class, educated and I support Trump.

Posted by: Misfortune & Pestilence at July 09, 2015 06:16 PM (vkf6y)

603 >>You get it being said that way because the Republican candidates are saying nothing....NOTHING. They aren't saying how sanctuary cities have to go. They aren't saying the illegal flood has to stop. They offer cliches and move on. The WC is tired of the "nation of immigrants" pablum. At some point you have to shut the door.

true.

True.

but that doesn't change something else that's true -- that Trump's comments are going to push the wishy-washy PC UMC voters further away from the correct policy.

Shouldn't a good negotiator, a shrewd businessman, know the audience he's selling too?

These One Class Wonders get a lot of attention but can't actually go anywhere.

Like it or not, you have to appeal to multiple groups at once.

Posted by: ace at July 09, 2015 06:16 PM (bhepQ)

604 >>I don't think Bush just did much better with swing voters, I think their turnout operation was just a lot better.

Absolutely. Bush won because he ran a better campaign that Romney. He also ran when there was no incumbent the first time and as an incumbent with very mediocre numbers for reelection. Incumbency is an extremely powerful weapon.

There is some value with comparing races but every race is going to be different do to demographics, events, the economy, etc. At the end of the day though most of the burden falls on the candidate and his or her organization. Bush ran a better race than Romney. Wish it weren't the case but it is.

Posted by: JackStraw at July 09, 2015 06:16 PM (OGm46)

605
Yeah, actually, if you *read* the text of what Trump said it is perfectly acceptable in ANY company (except the Left, of course).

Posted by: Soothsayer of the Righteous And Harmonious Fists at July 09, 2015 06:16 PM (OWhnJ)

606 Not certain where I fit along the fault-line of white working class and white comfortable class. Yes, I have certain elevated tastes, a college education, and as a writer and publisher, fall into the creative class - but I'm retired military, live in a working-class neighborhood on the outskirts of a good-sized Texas city where a lot of my neighbors work with their hands and wear jeans to work, and hardly make enough from the Tiny Publishing Bidness in a year to take a holiday anywhere but at home ...
Trump - what to say about him. Yes, know that he is a showboat and a vulgarian, and likely is in this whole thing for the laughs ... but he fights. He is saying bluntly what a lot of us, on both sides of the class divide are thinking and saying privately, or in discussions on conservative leaning blogs.
He fights back, he doesn't cave in and go all apologetic like your usual GOP wimp.
I don't think he's going to go all the way -- but it is amusing to watch him slash through the political landscape, rattling cages, upsetting apple carts and slashing at sacred cows all the way. And some useful outcome might come from it in the long run.

Posted by: Sgt. Mom at July 09, 2015 06:17 PM (95iDF)

607 Romney's disappearing white vote problem:

http://tinyurl.com/d76wqwp

Posted by: SocietyIs2Blame at July 09, 2015 06:17 PM (WIOql)

608 Last comment Ace, but I am sorry Flynn didn't win.

But with that name recognition, shit, just the sheer number of relations, it's a tough row to hoe.

But what Presidential candidate stepped up to help? What talk show stepped up to help?

We may not agree with our brothers in arms on all things, but it is vile and suicidal not to stand by them when they need help.

Final thought:

You assumed facts not in evidence. You stated the GOPe "flipped out" b/c of Trump's rape comments. Come on. Anyone with a 70+ IQ knows he wasn't talking about every man woman and child crossing the border.

No, the SJWs freaked out b/c that's what they do. The GOPe freaked out because Trump is calling those fuckers on the lie. Because he said he was going to build a big fucking wall and put his name on it.

And they won't. They lack the stomach or simply want to let this foreign invasion continue for their special interests. Simple as that. That's why they're scrambling and Trump is skyrocketing in the polls.

As you have said numerous times, the GOPe are nothing but liars, and any thinking person knows that.

Posted by: prescient11 at July 09, 2015 06:17 PM (Au7Z/)

609 due. My low class roots are showing.

Posted by: JackStraw at July 09, 2015 06:17 PM (OGm46)

610 @598 Ah, the Gramscian worldview.

Posted by: gh at July 09, 2015 06:18 PM (YlqSL)

611 Let's not overthink this. Romney was just a bad candidate.

A good guy - might have been a great President. But he was a lousy candidate. Too many people were voting for him because he wasn't the other guy - not because they wanted to vote for him.
Posted by: SH

I agree in part, but I would argue Bush was a pretty piss-poor President also but I still pulled the lever

i think a better candidate could have won, but a better candidate didn't step up

I can understand someone who is too lazy to develop an ideology to sit out an election, but not a right-leaning voter

I don't know what message they were trying to send but I don't see a more conservative GOP as a result of Romney losing

Posted by: McAdams at July 09, 2015 06:18 PM (rE2PN)

612 Phase I: Nominate Donald Trump.
Phase II: ?
Phase III: Victory!

Posted by: Underclass Gnomes at July 09, 2015 06:18 PM (7u7u7)

613 Trump knows the audience he is selling to

its the GOPe

who will pay him to leave, like a hooker

Posted by: thunderb at July 09, 2015 06:18 PM (zOTsN)

614 And Ace, I"m Mexican American so shut your fucking mouth with your mealy shitty paternalistic crap.
You don't get to tell me what I feel about invaders from a foreign land.

Illegals are the point, not citizens of Mexico - and you are lying to make Trump's words sound worse.

Posted by: Inspector Cussword at July 09, 2015 06:18 PM (ukTrJ)

615 The Great Sausage Wars. Still not over in the Midwest.
Posted by: All
---------------
Eastern NC barbecue vs. Western NC barbecue. More bodies than at Alamance.

Posted by: Mike Hammer, etc., etc. at July 09, 2015 06:18 PM (9mTYi)

616 At some point you have to shut the door.

You don't even have to do that. There is a metric crapton of potential for compromise in the immigration debate. But all we get are vague promises in the future that we know aren't going to be met.

I am all for opening the door wide--but only if the walls are shut. Check everyone coming through the door, and assume anyone trying to come over the walls is a hardened criminal.

Some conservatives are going to say, but what about welfare, public schools, ACA, and birthright citizenship?

I think a lot of anti-illegal immigration folks would be willing to compromise if birthright citizenship were removed and we did not grant non-citizens a right to the welfare state.

Instead, we don't even get a reasoned discussion on the difference between legal and illegal immigration: any opposition to illegal immigration is automatically categorized as opposition to immigrants and opposition to new citizens (c.f., the Trump controversy).

Posted by: Stephen Price Blair at July 09, 2015 06:19 PM (J0IP0)

617
Kerry lost in 2004 because he ran on Nothing except he was Not Bush.

Romney lost in 2012 because he ran on Nothing besides he was Not obama.

Republicans will lose in 2016 because they are running on Nothing besides they are not A Democrat (or Not Clinton).

Posted by: Soothsayer of the Righteous And Harmonious Fists at July 09, 2015 06:19 PM (OWhnJ)

618 It waz the socons what assassinated Larry Flynt on the grassy pole!!11!!

Posted by: Mr. Foo Foo at July 09, 2015 06:19 PM (Dwehj)

619 Scott Walker, elitist?

Posted by: huh? at July 09, 2015 06:19 PM (7u7u7)

620 >>>And for those that got there, your 'criticism' of your people is basically 'we should behave better than those guys because we *are* better than those guys.'

they're not my people and that's false, that's not what I said.

but whatever, the Camp of the Easily Offended is going to keep on complaining that they aren't being afforded the proper level of respect.

Validation and affirmation is demanded.

sorry, what trump said was crude, certainly it was not elevated, and if you can't see that, then you do in fact lack the education and discrimination to separate the crude from the elevated.

IT's not my fault that you can't see that. I can't walk on eggshells forever around you, pretending that your failure to see obvious things is not a failing that you should correct.

Posted by: ace at July 09, 2015 06:20 PM (bhepQ)

621 I like Palin Class v. Romney Class. You know which class you belong to.

Would you rather shoot the goose, or just eat the fois
gras?

Posted by: rickb223 at July 09, 2015 06:20 PM (5fXFG)

622 "And yes, saying of Mexicans, "They're rapists... and some, I assume, are decent people" is crude and insulting, and if you think that's not crude and insulting, you should have NO PROBLEMO with what I've said. "

Big fucking deal.

The 'comfortable class' forgives that kind of shit on a regular basis. The 'comfortable class' has a pulitzer prize winning journalist putting out a documentary about white people on MTV where they are, as usual, insulted and lampooned. The 'comfortable class' squealed with glee at a white house lit up like a fucking rainbow, and they hit Indiana with the biggest media hammer they could find when someone tried to pass a law to keep small businesses from being sued into oblivion if they didn't want to take part in a same-sex wedding celebration.

Maybe you should tell the 'comfortable class' not only to act with a bit more grace itself, but also tell them to be as understanding of the working class white 'faux pases' as they are with their own kind's, and every other person's.

Because last I fucking checked, they were on a warpath to remove every vestige of the confederate flag from existence due to one lone nut spree killer, but one looting-riot-fest after the other didn't result in condemnation of 'racist' or 'criminal blacks' even once.

Posted by: Crude at July 09, 2015 06:21 PM (/IrCS)

623 When all you've ever seen of the South is a Larry
The Cable Guy Comedy Special, you're as ignorant about the South as you
were before the show, but somehow feel like you're in on the joke.

Posted by: LincolnTf at July 09, 2015 06:03 PM

But when you have spent time in the South, and appreciate the people and mores of the south, said Larry the Cable Guy is even funnier.

I admit to some confusion here. I grew up not caring much about someone's "class" (different from the question of whether they have any), and still feel that way. Over the years, my friends and co-workers have been all over the map, status-wise. I see nothing wrong in that.

When you're talking about politics -- which is mainly what interests me around here; screeds about Society and Lifestyle don't grab me -- I divide people into two classes: Right and Wrong. That has nothing to do with party identification or even, to some extent, whether one is liberal or conservative.

~~Choom Boy~~ President Barack H. Obama is Wrong. What's worse, he is defiantly, arrogantly, destructively, wrong. I have no respect for him, and therefore do not use his proper name. To me, he is a criminal and should be treated that way.

Contrast him with Ben Carson, who is likewise a Person of Color, but is more Right than Wrong, if occasionally a bit wobbly in his beliefs to suit me. Where either of these men came from, whether they like Larry the Cable Guy, means nothing to me.

So it is with all politicians, and all of politics. I see two sides, plain as day, and reject any compromise which -- as is almost always the case with the Wrong class -- forces me to set aside my notions of Right and Wrong.

I will support a candidate who is Right. I will under no circumstances support in any way one who is Wrong. I will, in fact, call for their defeat and removal from the political scene.

I am enough of a realist to think I cannot get together with the current president's constituency, and I see no reason to do so. Let them come to me, and accept my morals and beliefs, if Compromise is so damn important.

Posted by: MrScribbler at July 09, 2015 06:21 PM (P8YHq)

624 And Ace, I"m Mexican American so shut your fucking mouth with your mealy shitty paternalistic crap.
You don't get to tell me what I feel about invaders from a foreign land.
Posted by: Inspector Cussword

**yeeeooowwch**

Posted by: weft cut-loop at July 09, 2015 06:21 PM (VY8H5)

625 621 I like Palin Class v. Romney Class. You know which class you belong to.

Would you rather shoot the goose, or just eat the fois
gras?
Posted by: rickb223 at July 09, 2015 06:20 PM (5fXFG)
---
Moose vs. Mousse.

Posted by: All Hail Eris, Literate Savage at July 09, 2015 06:22 PM (jR7Wy)

626 >>>Illegals are the point, not citizens of Mexico - and you are lying to make Trump's words sound worse.

whatever. Okay, he said Mexican *immigrants* were rapists, and "some, I assume, are decent people."

Certainly he did not besmirch the citizens of Mexico; only the rape-inclined immigrants coming here.

Posted by: ace at July 09, 2015 06:22 PM (bhepQ)

627 Scott Walker, elitist?

Posted by: huh? at July 09, 2015 06:19 PM (7u7u7)

What does he put on his hot dogs?

Posted by: Young Kiefer Sutherland's Ass at July 09, 2015 06:22 PM (ZcB5C)

628 Eastern NC barbecue vs. Western NC barbecue. More bodies than at Alamance.

Posted by: Mike Hammer, etc., etc. at July 09, 2015 06:18 PM (9mTYi)

==========
Funny thing, the surviving Regulators were mostly Loyalist during the Revolution. Sacred oaths meant something back then.

Posted by: mrp at July 09, 2015 06:22 PM (JBggj)

629 538 Monozygotic twins can have different development, congenital conditions etc. for all kinds of reasons. http://www.genomemedicine.com/content/6/7/60 Differences don't necessarily come down to environmental factors or personal choice.

Posted by: anonymous irishman at July 09, 2015 06:22 PM (DJgfL)

630 I admit I read half of this. But just wanted to say this: I don't agree with Ace's exact premise, but I will say that the "white working class" as he terms it, isn't just about whites. It's about freedom and traditional values and that includes not just traditional family values but the old fashioned value of how to budget money. So, really, the "white working class" faction should appeal to blacks and anyone who loves freedom.

I will say I understand where Ace is coming from with the "crude" complaint. This is one reason (of MANY) I didn't/don't like Sarah Palin. She's low-class and up until a few years ago I preferred "gentlemen and ladies" in political leadership, I liked "statesmen", you know? Like Reagan who was both conservative but educated and refined as well. Well, eight years of Obama has changed that. Right now, I don't care if someone is crude or not. Crude just might be the only way to wake people up. I don't think Trump is crude, but I know the Establishment traitors do. Well, people are putting Trump in the lead in the two latest polls. The people like him. The people are sick of the elegant elites with their perfectly creased pants. There is a backlash. Perhaps the pendulum will swing a little to wide, but it's the only way to correct the current path. But, again: I don't think Trump's crude whereas I DO think Palin is (her whole family is very white trash what with the unwed pregnancies of both son AND daughter and the bare-knuckle/drunken bloody brawl that both son and daughter engaged in. This is trailer-trash behavior, period.). Trump has charisma that I never saw in Palin (I think people often mistake physical attractiveness with charisma, but they are two very different things).

Ace, and my fellow Morons: I really think you'd like what Sundance of The Conservative Treehouse writes on the subject of the base/grassroots vs the Establishment RINOs. He calls them "Decepticons" and he knows they are all literally owned by the Chamber of Commerce. The picture of Jeb sitting next to ValJar a few months ago and SMILING is enough to let us know that they are WORKING TOGETHER. They are not the least bit conservative, in fact they are sabateurs. They are wolves in sheeps clothing. They are evil. Even more evil in a way because at least the Democrat Progs are honest and upfront about their intentions. The pretend GOP Progs lie. They are insurrectionists and spies.

I've put a link in my name to Sundance's latest thoughts on the Decepticon strategy, be sure to click the tag at the bottom and read his thoughts on Decepticons in general.

OK, back to reading this long post.

Posted by: Aslan's Girl at July 09, 2015 06:22 PM (xetep)

631 sorry, what trump said was crude

Posted by: ace at July 09, 2015 06:20 PM

----

It seems to me* that Trump is out either to be president or, failing that, destroy the GOP's chances by running third party. In light of that what he said about "mexicans" or whatever is small potatoes.

* based on things he has said since his unfortunate remarks on immigrants

Posted by: gh at July 09, 2015 06:22 PM (YlqSL)

632 "I don't know what message they were trying to send but I don't see a more conservative GOP as a result of Romney losing"

Because a) the GOP refused to learn the lesson and b) people who continue to vote as if "any Republican is better" shield them from accountability.

They understand losing. Nothing else. If you want change, some of them have to lose - pour encourager les autres.

I'm third party now in part because it's clear too few Republicans are willing to put down that marker (as Ace advised months ago re: Graham and some of the other worst offenders).

Posted by: SocietyIs2Blame at July 09, 2015 06:22 PM (WIOql)

633 this is just a perfect example of where some people not only don't see the problem with crude, broad racial put-downs, but in fact *insist* that this is precisely the RIGHT WAY to discuss such sensitive matters.

Posted by: ace at July 09, 2015 06:22 PM (bhepQ)

634 Is laughing at Amy Schumer allowed around here?

Posted by: Dr Spank at July 09, 2015 06:23 PM (TJCSB)

635 621 I like Palin Class v. Romney Class. You know which class you belong to.

Would you rather shoot the goose, or just eat the fois
gras?

---

Geese are nasty. Don't shoot them; convince your enemies' children to raise them as 4H projects.

Posted by: Jenny Once Owned A Goose at July 09, 2015 06:23 PM (rrG3v)

636 After reading Ace's epistle--Working vsComfortable...sort of feel like Chinatown replay---Sister. Daughter. Mother.
Don't know which line to get in.
Peeing in the street makes more sense than ever..

Posted by: ?What line do i belong in? at July 09, 2015 06:23 PM (7GI9v)

637 Hey Ace,

This is an unrelated comment. But I just wanted to point out that on at least 3 (and probably more) news topics you have been way ahead of the curve.
Days after the fact, Rush has featured issues you raised on your blog.

That's impressive, dude.

Posted by: _Dave_ at July 09, 2015 06:23 PM (l2dSQ)

638 There are lots of reasons Romney lost.

He was a terrible candidate.
He didn't offer the voters anything except not being Obama.
He was attacked relentlessly by the Democrat Media (47%! Outlaw Tampons! Women in Binders!)
His ground game was terrible.
He didn't win over working class whites.

To blame his failure on whatever factor inclines to your bailiwick is dishonest. Romney was just... all kinds of FAIL. There was no one factor that did him in.

Posted by: V the K at July 09, 2015 06:23 PM (c/Ipt)

639 Absolutely. Bush won because he ran a better campaign that Romney. He also ran when there was no incumbent the first time and as an incumbent with very mediocre numbers for reelection. Incumbency is an extremely powerful weapon.
Posted by: JackStraw

the funny thing is, Bush won because the people "behind the curtain" were more competent. I think had little to do with Bush the candidate.

I remember cringing at the debates with Bush, they were an absolute disaster. And the man could barely form a sentence in interviews

i might have rather had a beer with Bush at the time, but Romney came off with complete command of the issues.

The lesson I learned is besides having better technicians that can run a ground game, you have to have a likable candidate, even if there's some ideological imperfections. usually the more likable guy wins these things

Posted by: McAdams at July 09, 2015 06:23 PM (rE2PN)

640 "only the rape-inclined immigrants coming here. "

Call them what they are...Illegal ALIENS. Not immigrants.

Posted by: Misfortune & Pestilence at July 09, 2015 06:24 PM (vkf6y)

641 >>> I admit I read half of this. But just wanted to say this: I don't agree with Ace's exact premise, but I will say that the "white working class" as he terms it, isn't just about whites. It's about freedom and traditional values and that includes not just traditional family values but the old fashioned value of how to budget money. So, really, the "white working class" faction should appeal to blacks and anyone who loves freedom.

yeah but the GOP is mostly white; i say the UMC is "White" too.

But you do have a point: I keep calling the WWC the WHITE working class and only sporadicaly call the UMC the White Professional Class.

I'll go clean up that terminology and take the white out of it.

Posted by: ace at July 09, 2015 06:24 PM (bhepQ)

642
Inspector Cussword and ace, I'm not getting into the middle of this one about Trump's comments, other than to say that if I had any hope left it would have been crushed by this chapter.

How?

Because this gigantic, very consequential issue (really a crisis, in the pre-mass media sense) of illegal immigration embraces or involves most of our national problems (lawlessness, racism - on the part of "pro-immigration" types, lack of accountability of all levels of govt.).

And Trump's clumsy inarticulate venture into this topic, whatever its strategic impact over time, was tailor-made for the sort of mau-mauing and distortion that now has replaced debate or news in this country.

Criminality among illegals (all, not just Mexicans) is a gigantic issue, an outrageous one, and has been for years. It's merely one of the several kinds of damage that illegal immigration does to the country. As with so much else any more, words simply fail when it comes to reacting to the indefensible, outrageous stuff happening (human trafficking in minors leading to abuse and death - ALL of it with explicit official Mexican and implicit US approval? WTF?).

And there sit the 389 other GOP hopefuls, unable to burble up even one or two paragraphs of truth and common sense - that would be received positively by up to 80% of the electorate.

Posted by: rhomboid at July 09, 2015 06:25 PM (QDnY+)

643
Differences don't necessarily come down to environmental factors or personal choice.

I disagree.

Experiment: raise a child from birth in a pigpen. That child will grow up acting like a pig.

So you're telling me that perhaps, if that child were "born a homosexual," s/he would grow up to be a homosexual pig, right?

Posted by: Soothsayer of the Righteous And Harmonious Fists at July 09, 2015 06:25 PM (OWhnJ)

644 633 this is just a perfect example of where some people not only don't see the problem with crude, broad racial put-downs, but in fact *insist* that this is precisely the RIGHT WAY to discuss such sensitive matters.

---

Real Morons (TM)

Posted by: Jenny Once Owned A Goose at July 09, 2015 06:25 PM (rrG3v)

645 Ace - Might Trump have made a powerful argument regarding the depredations consequent of illegals without creating the same stir?

A hypothetical question, perhaps, but many feel that it is an issue of great significance.

Posted by: Mike Hammer, etc., etc. at July 09, 2015 06:25 PM (9mTYi)

646 sorry, what trump said was crude, certainly it was not elevated, and if
you can't see that, then you do in fact lack the education and
discrimination to separate the crude from the elevated.

But it's the truth.

And it needed to be said.

And he's the only one with sufficient character to bother making an issue of it.

Posted by: Methos at July 09, 2015 06:26 PM (ZbV+0)

647 "sorry, what trump said was crude, certainly it was not elevated,"

It was basically true. It was more true and meaningful on the issue of immigration than anything out of the mouths of one of the other dozen or so candidates. That's why it is resonating. In the punishing and demoralizing absence of truth we're living through, through the long dark night of lies, no one is going to care about crudity.

Posted by: rrpjr at July 09, 2015 06:26 PM (s/yC1)

648 Humdinger of a thread here.....

Posted by: Ricardo Kill at July 09, 2015 06:27 PM (LA7Cm)

649 Nothing's going to unite us like Ace telling us why he hates us.

I'll take crude truth over smooth lies.

I'll take a fighter who fights the Democrats instead of their own support base.

I'll echo a lot of what @prescient11 said. I've donated here and to Mike Flynn (no regrets, I also wish he would have won) . I'd prefer Cruz or Walker but I'll vote Trump if and when the time comes that he's the alternative to Hildebeast.

Posted by: Mark Andrew Edwards at July 09, 2015 06:27 PM (iyLo4)

650 Yeah, time for me to go calm down. I'm sure Ace is waitng for us chimpanzee-conservatives to quit howling and pretending to know facts about our back yards and our families and friends who have been killed and assaulted, robbed and burglarized by illegals. After all, Ace Knows More, since he's of the "Upper Class".

Of course, saying someone is of lower class doesn't mean they are being disparaged - in New York that meaning has never been discussed or applied! For heaven's sake! Being called "low class" is only an insult to those "low class" people who are always offended at being insulted by their betters!

Ace is just doing us a favor by calling us names and pretending our taking offense merely proves his superiority and our inferiority. It's a thing, you know. An Upper Class Thing. He only wants to give us hugs and tell us we are stupid fucking subhumans for taking offense at his talking down to us and calling us "lower class".

It's not like that has ever been the equivalent of calling someone a "peasant" or a "serf" or "slave".

Nosirree.

I feel better now that I am clear on the matter. I am taking his insults as insults instead of clear indicators of his superiority and my inferiority!

....naw.

Posted by: Inspector Cussword at July 09, 2015 06:27 PM (ukTrJ)

651 >>Because a) the GOP refused to learn the lesson and b) people who continue to vote as if "any Republican is better" shield them from accountability.

This is what I don't get about this "the GOP never learns" stuff. You do realize that we had 8 years of Bush before Obama, right? Before that it was Clinton and before that it was Bush and before that it was Reagan. Where does this "we've been walking in the wilderness for generations" shit come from?

We have the biggest GOP majorities in Congress in a generation. We own more statehouses and state legislatures than pretty much ever.

The makeup may not be as conservative as we like but where is the evidence the GOP isn't winning? It's conservatives that are losing.

Posted by: JackStraw at July 09, 2015 06:27 PM (OGm46)

652
If the Hodge Twins read this post they'd call it a "long-ass post."

They like to add the suffix -ass to add emphasis, which can be quite contagious, I'll admit.

Posted by: Soothsayer of the Righteous And Harmonious Fists at July 09, 2015 06:28 PM (OWhnJ)

653 One of the things that bothers me about politics these days is the idea that a candidates positions should be shaped to attract this or that voter and that some of their positions should be toned down so as not to put off some other group.

What the hell is that about? It's why we keep getting politicians with their finger in the wind 24/7 and nothing gets done that is worth while or that we thought we were voting for.

A candidate should state clearly and consistently what they major positions are and roll with that and if the majority don't like him then they will voter for someone else.

It seems that everyone thinks the whole idea of the contest is to win but if you compromise, misstate, lie or otherwise pander then what kind of victory is that?

The first few days after the Trump uproar, I was skeptical but then he started losing money and business and he still kept saying the same thing. THAT impressed the hell out of me much more than what he said about illegals.

Who else has lost that much and taken so much crap and still stood their ground among any of the candidates?

Posted by: Bitter Clinger and All That at July 09, 2015 06:28 PM (x3GpS)

654 I view it differently, more as an ideological conflict than anything else, maybe because I was a trailer court kid who has done reasonably well and has traversed various class levels and sub-levels on the way up, on the way down and on the way up again.I've never identified with any particular class, consciously or subconsciously. I just know what it's like to be poor.

There have always been Country Club Republicans, pretty much interested in maintaining the status quo and protecting their pocketbooks,and there have always been Republican 'extremists'--and you know the anti-Slavery wing of the Whig (and later) Republican Party was considered extremist, since political equality among the races meant literal social and cultural equality in a practical sense. That was the great issue of the day then; today, the great issue centers around socialism, which abhors individual freedom and favors an all-powerful federal government, and those--like us--who oppose it. It's about freedom. That's what matters here.

So no, I don't buy a class-based argument. It might be a factor but it isn'tTHE factor in the old Marxist (or even Fabian) dialectical sense.

Posted by: troyriser at July 09, 2015 06:28 PM (CAJL/)

655 Find someone, anyone (Trump is a joke, but right now he is the one talking -- and that's the real problem) who will come right out and say it: amnesty will destroy the working class (either by taking their jobs or forcing them into corrupt unions -- and we know what happens then), will destroy any hopes of the lower classes to something higher (yes, there are some that would like to get out of it), and will burden the "comfortables" with excessive taxation (in which case their class status really won't be about money any longer); plus, it is a spit in the face to all legal immigrants as well as anyone who believes in the rule of law and national sovereignty (that's a biggie I should think). And yes, a lot of illegals are criminals; perhaps not all, but enough -- so this "poor people yearning to breathe free" meme is a myth, and it is disgusting that many would demand that all believe it while it destroys them. Find someone who says they will confront Mexico (and others, but especially Mexico) for the hand they play in all of this -- that country is utterly corrupt and has failed its citizens; this is not our problem -- we should give it back to who is the rightful owner.
Find someone who will talk strongly about this and other things; someone who can show through words that we all do have a vested interest, that if we abide by the principles laid forth in our Bill of Rights we all will pretty much get to win in ways that really matter (and those are more important than bragging rights about who is coolest, nicest, whatever) and you just might win. If not, then you'll lose...and we'll likely get Hillary or someone just like her, and the real deluge.
I should think that if not for the country, at the very least that last should be incentive enough.

Posted by: unknown j. at July 09, 2015 06:28 PM (0EjYp)

656 What does he put on his hot dogs?

Secret Stadium Sauce.

Posted by: HR braucht ein Bier at July 09, 2015 06:28 PM (ZKzrr)

657 Yeah, Trump's words were inelegant.

But If Trump had stuck to standard anodyne Republican pabulum, "We need to secure the border, and then reform our immigration system," would this have even caused a ripple.

Supposedly, voters want politicians to talk about issues. Well, Trump just did.

I don't like or trust the guy, but given a choice between red meat and mush, most people would rather have meat.

Posted by: V the K at July 09, 2015 06:29 PM (c/Ipt)

658 Heh, V the K still glad you have Caption This! after all these years. Nice to have a constant in life.

Posted by: logprof at July 09, 2015 06:29 PM (gcE+A)

659 Everything Ace knows about America he learned by watching the WB.

Posted by: LincolnTf at July 09, 2015 06:29 PM (2cS/G)

660 632.

i understand the frustration and your vote is your own, but I know for certain you're not going to get the result you want

The more conservative voters that sit out for spite, the more the GOP drifts to the Left. You're not going to see a different strategy.

the Republicans were happy being a minority party for nearly 50 years in Congress, it could easily happen for another 50 with Democrats running the show.

And regardless of what somebody thought of Romney as a conservative, you don't get to sit out an entire election because of one person running. You can't tell me there wasn't ballot issues or other candidates worth supporting that justifies a person completely removing themselves from the political process all because Romney was not their first choice

Posted by: McAdams at July 09, 2015 06:30 PM (rE2PN)

661 Posted by: mynewhandle at July 09, 2015 05:43 PM (AkOaV)

So you've never been to Alabama, then?

(Roll Tide!)

Just joshing, I agree with you for the most part.

I have never been to NYC, but I'd guess there is a higher concentration of the type of folks to whom such things matter there, and I think many of them are not natives.

Posted by: Tammy al-Thor at July 09, 2015 06:30 PM (DI417)

662 Mexicans insult and denigrate the United States and Americans EVERYDAY.

They encourage law breaking, they join political groups and march with Mexicans flags by the thousands to demand more benefits, power, safe havens for illegals.

And Trump says they are bringing crime with them, and somehow HE is the bad guy??? Mexicans KNOW this is true, but they don't care.

Why cant the Mexicans you claim he has insulted protest against illegals? Because they don't care.

So why should we?

Posted by: pam at July 09, 2015 06:30 PM (EAZ7y)

663 I've heard Mexicans who speak and read English complain bitterly about the newcomers "from out of state" who are now competing with them in the labor market and are driving down wages.

The Dems ignore market forces at their electoral peril.

Posted by: mrp at July 09, 2015 06:30 PM (JBggj)

664
Jan Brewer was invited on CNN to, probably, be guided into rebuking Trump. She didn't denounce Trump; she concurred with what he said.

Posted by: Soothsayer of the Righteous And Harmonious Fists at July 09, 2015 06:30 PM (OWhnJ)

665 "Secret Stadium Sauce."

I don't like the sound of that.

Posted by: Ricardo Kill at July 09, 2015 06:31 PM (LA7Cm)

666 okay i changed Working Class whites to simply "middle class," except for one reference to working class whites.

I used the term because it's so frequently used by others; but it was never the right term, and I think it alienated some people.

So i've changed that.

Sometimes one needs to discuss sensitive issues with some sensitivity, after all.

thanks, aslan girl.

Posted by: ace at July 09, 2015 06:32 PM (bhepQ)

667 "The makeup may not be as conservative as we like but where is the
evidence the GOP isn't winning? It's conservatives that are losing."

That's actually in line with my point. Too many conservatives buy into the idea that "any R is better." The GOP may be winning, but conservative policies aren't being implemented. Government grows, the cultural front gets pushed further back, and both the top and bottom entitled classes continue to smother the middle class.

Unless and until conservatives stop falling for this, they'll be taken for granted and ignored. You teach the lesson to not ignore conservatives by denying them votes and money - nothing less. And if it means Grimes, or Hillary!! or whatever, so be it.

Or conservatives can keep smelling the glove.

Posted by: SocietyIs2Blame at July 09, 2015 06:32 PM (WIOql)

668 634 Is laughing at Amy Schumer allowed around here?
------------------------------

I hope you're laughing at what a low class whore she is, and the fact that she's adored by the Hollywood elite.
Because there is nothing funny about her "look at my Vagina! " so-called comedy.

Posted by: Chi at July 09, 2015 06:33 PM (ueu0p)

669 "this is just a perfect example of where some people not only don't see the problem with crude, broad racial put-downs, but in fact *insist* that this is precisely the RIGHT WAY to discuss such sensitive matters. "

No, they're insisting that Trump saying 'Not every illegal immigrant coming over here is great. There are criminals, rapists, and murderers, and sure, some good people too' is not the end of the fucking world for which he must apologize, beg forgiveness, and turn himself into a pariah over.

You keep talking about these 'sensitive matters', like how you mentioned that maybe white people should be understanding of the fact that people are going to hate them more than usual, and they'll just have to suck it up and deal with that hostility because it's /understandable/. Well, sorry - a lot of us are done with that. We did it for ages, and the result was that there was no 'sensitive discussion' that took place afterwards. We just became the villains.

Maybe the problem isn't all on other people in this case, ace. Maybe you have to swallow -your- pride and admit - to the horror of the 'comfortable class' - that no, what Trump said may piss people off, but it's not horrific and condemnable to the extreme, and no, he shouldn't fucking apologize, because we've seen what happens to those who do apologize. Maybe you should tell the 'comfortable class', you know, you excuse your own side's gaffes and stumbles routinely, maybe it's time for you to suck it up and stop trying to crucify Trump.

Because - and I say this as a guy who used to advocate the 'sensitive talk' shit myself - a lot of us are done with it. No, we're not going to keep our mouths shut as we're called horrible racists who are responsible for all that's ill in the world and who need to be punished in way after way to atone for the sins of our ancestors. And if that means losing - hell, if that means losing so hard that the comfortable class finds that it's no longer comfortable anymore - we'd prefer it to being the sort of spineless, self-hating, apologetic toadies the 'comfortable class' wishes we'd be.

Posted by: Crude at July 09, 2015 06:33 PM (/IrCS)

670 Conservatives sitting out, or forming a new party, will NOT make the GOP more leftwing.

No, the GOP drifts to the left when we vote for leftwing Republicans.

Posted by: pam at July 09, 2015 06:33 PM (EAZ7y)

671 668 634 Is laughing at Amy Schumer allowed around here?
------------------------------

I hope you're laughing at what a low class whore she is, and the fact that she's adored by the Hollywood elite.
Because there is nothing funny about her "look at my Vagina! " so-called comedy.

---

The 12 Angry Men sketch was hilarious

Posted by: Jenny Once Owned A Goose at July 09, 2015 06:34 PM (rrG3v)

672 Would you rather shoot the goose, or just eat the fois

gras?
Posted by: rickb223 at July 09, 2015 06:20 PM (5fXFG)

What do you think Fois Gras is?

Posted by: Bitter Clinger and All That at July 09, 2015 06:34 PM (x3GpS)

673 And the middle class.

Posted by: Bertram Cabot Jr. at July 09, 2015 06:34 PM (W5DcG)

674 >>>But If Trump had stuck to standard anodyne Republican pabulum, "We need to secure the border, and then reform our immigration system," would this have even caused a ripple.

i don't know about that.

Because the Sanctuary City murder was going to happen a couple of weeks later -- and no, I don't think Trump's comments made that an issue.

I think minus Trump's comments we'd have a somewhat better political position on this right now.

it's not that trump's remarks kill us-- but they're not helpful. they alienate those people who do in fact worry about these issues, BUT also do not want to be lumped in with a group of people they consider to be racists.

Posted by: ace at July 09, 2015 06:34 PM (bhepQ)

675 Posted by: McAdams at July 09, 2015 06:30 PM (rE2PN)

My theory on Romney's loss has always been simply this: people on the right didn't turn out to vote because they thought they didn't have to. They sat at home thinking, "Nah, I'm not going to go waste my time standing in line at the polls. No sense in it, because there's no way TFG's gonna get reelected."

It was complacency, pure and simple, IMO. And the "oh, shit, I should have gone to polls" was reflected in the '14 midterm.

Posted by: Country Singer at July 09, 2015 06:34 PM (nL0sw)

676 >> V the K still glad you have Caption This! after all these years.

Boobies and pull-my-finger jokes are timeless.

Posted by: V the K at July 09, 2015 06:34 PM (c/Ipt)

677 "But it's the truth.

And it needed to be said.

And he's the only one with sufficient character to bother making an issue of it."

Two out of three ain't good enough. There are many reasons why you might make an issue out of a popular position on which no one else is running - and "character" is a word I rarely associate with politicians, and never with Teh Donald. You can't know the man's heart, you can only judge by his actions - and his past track record isn't one of "character." Irascibility, yes - iconoclasm, yes, but those aren't the same things.

Posted by: SocietyIs2Blame at July 09, 2015 06:35 PM (WIOql)

678 I don't like the sound of that.

It's good shit.
http://is.gd/fnEYP9

Posted by: HR braucht ein Bier at July 09, 2015 06:35 PM (ZKzrr)

679 Ace is right, trump could have qualified statement better. But crude is fundamentally right.

Posted by: Prescient11 at July 09, 2015 06:35 PM (Au7Z/)

680 >>>
Because - and I say this as a guy who used to advocate the 'sensitive talk' shit myself - a lot of us are done with it. No, we're not going to keep our mouths shut as we're called horrible racists who are responsible for all that's ill in the world and who need to be punished in way after way to atone for the sins of our ancestors. And if that means losing - hell, if that means losing so hard that the comfortable class finds that it's no longer comfortable anymore - we'd prefer it to being the sort of spineless, self-hating, apologetic toadies the 'comfortable class' wishes we'd be.

it does mean losing, no if's about it

if you want to keep on walking into the left's beartraps and calling yourself brave for doing so, I can't do anything about that, except say it's foolish and self-indulgent.

Posted by: ace at July 09, 2015 06:36 PM (bhepQ)

681
holy cats, on my local news just now: a young woman in Boston shoved an old lady onto the pavement for no reason at all -- the old lady is expected to die from the injuries

Posted by: Soothsayer of the Righteous And Harmonious Fists at July 09, 2015 06:36 PM (OWhnJ)

682 >>Because the Sanctuary City murder was going to happen a couple of weeks later -- and no, I don't think Trump's comments made that an issue.

There have been plenty of people killed by illegal immigrants. IIRC there was a case in Minnesota where one slammed into a schoolbus.

This is the first time I ever remember a case not being "local news."

Posted by: V the K at July 09, 2015 06:36 PM (c/Ipt)

683 holy cats, on my local news just now: a young woman in Boston shoved an
old lady onto the pavement for no reason at all -- the old lady is
expected to die from the injuries

Tell us more.

Posted by: Moderate Salami at July 09, 2015 06:37 PM (/Ho8c)

684 i think white people have to wrap their heads around the idea -- which they seem to refuse to accept -- that they are currently only a bit of a majority, and will not be a majority for much longer.

this idea that we can just throw our racial grievances around without care, or that there's a Natural White Majority ready to assert control, is simply false. it is dreaming. It is praying for something impossible and false.

Posted by: ace at July 09, 2015 06:37 PM (bhepQ)

685 672 Would you rather shoot the goose, or just eat the fois

gras?
Posted by: rickb223 at July 09, 2015 06:20 PM (5fXFG)

What do you think Fois Gras is?

----

What, you think you're better than me cuz you eat fois gras from real ducks?

Posted by: Jenny Once Owned A Goose at July 09, 2015 06:38 PM (rrG3v)

686 " No sense in it, because there's no way TFG's gonna get reelected."

Seriously. Seemed like a hunk of cornbread could have beaten him.

You lives you learn.

Posted by: Ricardo Kill at July 09, 2015 06:38 PM (LA7Cm)

687 Yes, I recalled correctly, but it was a little longer ago.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/2008/02/22/ illegal-immigrant-charged-with-homicide-in-deadly-minnesota-school-bus-crash.html

Posted by: V the K at July 09, 2015 06:39 PM (c/Ipt)

688 >Because the Sanctuary City murder was going to happen a couple of weeks later -- and no, I don't think Trump's comments made that an issue.

And I think otherwise. It would have been just another murder by an illegal immigrant.

>it's not that trump's remarks kill us-- but they're not helpful. they alienate those people who do in fact worry about these issues, BUT also do not want to be lumped in with a group of people they consider to be racists.

Fuck them if they 'don't want to be lumped in with a group of people they consider to be racists'. That's not an option anymore. Just ask any southerner who condemns racism but thinks the southern flag stands for more than slavery. Hell, just ask any conservative on a college campus.

People have to get over their fear of 'being lumped in with a group of people they consider to be racists', because the standard for 'what makes you a racist' is fast becoming 'Does not believe white people need to be institutionally discriminated against to atone for the sins of white people'. Hell, simply backing *mandatory voter ID* was enough to brand people as 'racist', complete with Jim Crow law references.

If people are so afraid of 'being branded as racist' that they'll do anything to avoid it, then to hell with them, because they'll quickly find that anything conservative worth doing is 'the new racism'.

Posted by: Crude at July 09, 2015 06:39 PM (/IrCS)

689 Ace was comment # 666.

I rest my case.

Posted by: Dr Spank at July 09, 2015 06:39 PM (TJCSB)

690 674 - ace, there i think you are very wrong.

Anyone who buys the gop is raaaaccccccist bs is long gone.

We need to reach out to the white working class for once, for fuck's sake.

Posted by: Prescient11 at July 09, 2015 06:39 PM (Au7Z/)

691 "The more conservative voters that sit out for spite, the more the
GOP drifts to the Left. You're not going to see a different strategy.
the Republicans were happy being a minority party for nearly 50
years in Congress, it could easily happen for another 50 with Democrats
running the show."

All the more reason to say "Fuck the Republicans."

I'm certainly not going to vote for them if what you say is true - just be a hopeless, whipped peon caught in a one-way ratchet of greater futility and irrelevance? Are you seriously advocating this as a reason for me to vote FOR them?

Posted by: SocietyIs2Blame at July 09, 2015 06:40 PM (WIOql)

692 >>Unless and until conservatives stop falling for this, they'll be taken for granted and ignored. You teach the lesson to not ignore conservatives by denying them votes and money - nothing less. And if it means Grimes, or Hillary!! or whatever, so be it.

I partially agree with this. But I think liberals have given a better roadmap.

Despite the msm not reporting on it, the the Democrat party has moved much, much further to the left than the Republican party has moved to the right. Well, the Republican party hasn't moved right at all but you know what I mean.

Liberals didn't just withhold money and votes, they organized, ran better candidates and won. We just got a lesson the other night that we are only capable of doing one of those things at most times, field a better candidate. And they took over the party and purged the nonbelievers. Ruthlessly.

I had not heard a damn thing about the Flynn race until about a week before the race when ace started posting about it like a monkey on crack. I suspect most people in his district heard less than I did.

We don't organize, we don't fund, we don't run better campaigns for the most part. We bitch like a mofo but that is the only place we are winning now.

Sitting back and bitching isn't going to get us anywhere. Probably make things worse, at least in Congressional races which are so gerrymandered that the party outcome is not in doubt. We just need to do a better job of winning and that doesn't happen by shrinking our numbers but by gaining new ones.

Basic stuff but we suck at it.

Posted by: JackStraw at July 09, 2015 06:40 PM (OGm46)

693 Posted by: Jenny Once Owned A Goose

I was referring to her consensual sex joke.

Posted by: Dr Spank at July 09, 2015 06:40 PM (TJCSB)

694 >>>We need to reach out to the white working class for once, for fuck's sake.

right. We're not associated closely enough with that one racial/cultural cohort.

Posted by: ace at July 09, 2015 06:41 PM (bhepQ)

695

The book Class by Paul Fussel is excellent and required reading.

It is the difference between you and your loudmouthed cousin who drinks Busch "cuz it's not some faggy shit" and your brother who "loves a nice merlot in the evening."

Class is largely chosen in America, but only a few can make it stick.

I've always aspired to be in the X class myself, since the rest are too much work.

Posted by: imp at July 09, 2015 06:41 PM (XIXZz)

696 >>it's not that trump's remarks kill us-- but they're not helpful. they alienate those people who do in fact worry about these issues, BUT also do not want to be lumped in with a group of people they consider to be racists.

Especially since no other GOP candidate has been quick to capitalize on the opening Trump created. There is such a wide gap between Trump and Obama, and it would be so darn easy to show respect for immigrants while condemning the absolute mess Obama has made of immigration.

Saying "the system in broken" is pathetic - the system was "broken" before Obama took office, the he Cloward-Pivened it. Why is it so hard for any of them to even mention this?

Posted by: Lizzy at July 09, 2015 06:41 PM (NOIQH)

697 #684 - Our future may well be Mexico, where the elite have the light skin and the money, and the majority are brown and poor.

Posted by: V the K at July 09, 2015 06:41 PM (c/Ipt)

698
Boston -- Chinatown area -- Ghostbusters Crew Helps Cops Find Suspect Accused Of Violently Shoving Elderly Woman

Prosecutors say a member of the Ghostbusters film crew shooting in Boston helped police find a suspect charged with shoving an elderly woman.

The 72-year-old woman is not expected to survive after she was violently shoved in Chinatown Wednesday morning, according to prosecutors. She is currently on life support at Tufts Medical Center.

Police say Tajanetta Downing, 24, bumped into the Yuzhen Lei near Chauncey and Essex streets. Downing pushed Lei once and she fell to the ground, police said.

Black on Chinese hate crime, I say.

Posted by: Soothsayer of the Righteous And Harmonious Fists at July 09, 2015 06:41 PM (OWhnJ)

699 I have never been to NYC, but I'd guess there is a higher concentration of the type of folks to whom such things matter there, and I think many of them are not natives.

Posted by: Tammy
---------------

Tammy - Hi. Just pop this on in the background, totally safe, Nanci Griffith, listen carefully...., around 1:32

http://tinyurl.com/oz6tmjb

Posted by: Mike Hammer, etc., etc. at July 09, 2015 06:41 PM (9mTYi)

700
Noting how poorly Trump put the issue is not to excuse the national silence on it, not at all. Nor is it to excuse the pablum (insincere, as proven time and again) of GOP types when they mumble stuff about "securing the border".

I meant that it was crushingly depressing that this gigantic, critical issue is left to one vanity candidate's inartful stylings. Which are then easily distorted into some kind of bigotry.

Wouldn't be quite so easy to mob-swarm and mau-mau a national figure who coldly recited the dramatic statistics of damage done by mass illegal immigration. Salted with searing real-life examples (Steinle, Jamiel Shaw, on and on and on). And we're talking fiscal impacts, closing ERs near the border, school district problems, horrendous economic impact on working class trades (dry wall and roofing were, until fairly recently, two very solid and well-paying middle class-level working trades, for example).

That's it. But we all can guess why this amazing silence, even from the "opposition" party, on such a huge issue. A mix of indifference, small character and mediocre political instincts, and in some cases actual (delusional) support for the phenomenon.

Posted by: rhomboid at July 09, 2015 06:42 PM (QDnY+)

701 >>>We don't organize, we don't fund, we don't run better campaigns for the most part. We bitch like a mofo but that is the only place we are winning now.

Sitting back and bitching isn't going to get us anywhere. Probably make things worse, at least in Congressional races which are so gerrymandered that the party outcome is not in doubt. We just need to do a better job of winning and that doesn't happen by shrinking our numbers but by gaining new ones.

Basic stuff but we suck at it.

...

one thing you have to give to progs: They are all about politics all the time.

They clearly want this more than we do.

Posted by: ace at July 09, 2015 06:42 PM (bhepQ)

702 "if you want to keep on walking into the left's beartraps and calling yourself brave for doing so, I can't do anything about that, except say it's foolish and self-indulgent."

So. They NEVER fight back because....drum roll....they LIKE THE RESULTS.

The republican part of the uniparty hates us. All of us. Upper, middle, and lower classes. They only like trough they slop at.

Posted by: Misfortune & Pestilence at July 09, 2015 06:42 PM (vkf6y)

703 >>We need to reach out to the white working class for once, for fuck's sake.

Well, they need to reach out to the working class period.

40% of the population doesn't vote. Why? Because no one is taking a position on issues that are relevant to them.

Posted by: V the K at July 09, 2015 06:43 PM (c/Ipt)

704 >>>>Noting how poorly Trump put the issue is not to excuse the national silence on it, not at all. Nor is it to excuse the pablum (insincere, as proven time and again) of GOP types when they mumble stuff about "securing the border".

I meant that it was crushingly depressing that this gigantic, critical issue is left to one vanity candidate's inartful stylings. Which are then easily distorted into some kind of bigotry.

Wouldn't be quite so easy to mob-swarm and mau-mau a national figure who coldly recited the dramatic statistics of damage done by mass illegal immigration. Salted with searing real-life examples (Steinle, Jamiel Shaw, on and on and on). And we're talking fiscal impacts, closing ERs near the border, school district problems, horrendous economic impact on working class trades (dry wall and roofing were, until fairly recently, two very solid and well-paying middle class-level working trades, for example).

...

i agree but this is how the Uproar game is played, and this is how issues are buried.

When Fox puts up that Megyn Kelly clip -- holy shit, compare THAT voice to Trump's, and you tell me -- who's more likely to change minds?

Posted by: ace at July 09, 2015 06:43 PM (bhepQ)

705 >>>I've always aspired to be in the X class myself, since the rest are too much work.

what is the X class?

Posted by: ace at July 09, 2015 06:44 PM (bhepQ)

706
Do any of know *why* the Left/media blew up over Trump's remarks?

To Stop him from ever saying it again, and to send a Message to Others that they better not say such things or they'll also be punished.

Trump said nothing wrong in any sense of the word.

Posted by: Soothsayer of the Righteous And Harmonious Fists at July 09, 2015 06:44 PM (OWhnJ)

707 Ace hates white people. Who knew?

Posted by: Misfortune & Pestilence at July 09, 2015 06:44 PM (vkf6y)

708 >if you want to keep on walking into the left's beartraps and calling yourself brave for doing so, I can't do anything about that, except say it's foolish and self-indulgent.

Because, what - running political moderates straight out of the 'comfortable class' and spending years attacking anyone the left deems as 'racist' loudly enough paid off in spades, right?

>i think white people have to wrap their heads around the idea -- which they seem to refuse to accept -- that they are currently only a bit of a majority, and will not be a majority for much longer.

For the sake of argument - it's not exactly outlandish - let's accept it. What does that mean? That white people should just plain get used to being insulted, attacked, mocked, belittled and discriminated against? That they should keep their mouths shut, when they're not apologizing for the sins of people they've never met, and in many cases aren't even related to?

>this idea that we can just throw our racial grievances around without care, or that there's a Natural White Majority ready to assert control, is simply false. it is dreaming. It is praying for something impossible and false.

Who the hell is talking about this 'natural white majority'?

Newsflash, Ace: The black population is dwindling too, and it's already been surpassed by the latinos for all purposes. For some reason, this hasn't stopped many blacks from airing their racial grievances left and right, in one hell of a belligerent manner.

Huh, come to think of it - they've been doing this for a long time now, despite their minority status.

Why, it's almost as if... being in the minority, now or in the future, does not automatically mean 'shut up, sit down, and do as you're told'. And if you think it does, then guess what - I'm not the only one around here with a guaranteed losing strategy. You're no better off - you've just been reduced to someone who has to meekly accept his lot and hope for a few crumbs.

There's better ways to lose, if it comes to that.

Posted by: Crude at July 09, 2015 06:45 PM (/IrCS)

709
Do any of you know *why* the Left/media blew up over Trump's remarks?

To Stop him from ever saying it again, and to send a Message to Others that they better not say such things or they'll also be punished.

Trump said nothing wrong in any sense of the word.

Posted by: Soothsayer of the Righteous And Harmonious Fists at July 09, 2015 06:45 PM (OWhnJ)

710 >>one thing you have to give to progs: They are all about politics all the time.

And when they get elected, they actually follow through and give their base what they want, instead of cuddling up to the other side and pissing on the people who voted for them.

Posted by: V the K at July 09, 2015 06:45 PM (c/Ipt)

711 "Walk into the left's beartraps"????

This is where i think ace is behind the eight ball.

Dude, every fucking gop position, no matter how articlulately stated, is ALREADY called sexist, racist,etc.

The gop's very existence is fucking racist to the left. They want you to bow or die. Full stop.

You can cower like the GOPe has done since reagan, or you can punch your way out of the beartrap and laugh in their faces. And say three simple words.

Fuck you. War.

Posted by: Prescient11 at July 09, 2015 06:45 PM (Au7Z/)

712 "I think white people have to wrap their heads around the idea -- which
they seem to refuse to accept -- that they are currently only a bit of a
majority, and will not be a majority for much longer."

Why is that, though? Did it just "happen" or was it perhaps the result of A) viral self-loathing via Cultural Marxism; B) mass immigration and C) the marriage of the welfare state, identify politics and affirmative action.

We did this to ourselves. We chose to abort rather than procreate, import rather than produce and apologize rather then proselytize. And I don't mean "white" in the skin-color sense - I mean Western Anglo-European culture.

It's not some Act of God or force of nature, Ace - it's a self-inflicted problem we could and should solve.

Posted by: SocietyIs2Blame at July 09, 2015 06:45 PM (WIOql)

713 >>one thing you have to give to progs: They are all about politics all the time.

>>They clearly want this more than we do.

The party of government does have a built in advantage when it comes to things government.

Hopefully, enough conservative types will realize that they are losing by not playing.

Posted by: JackStraw at July 09, 2015 06:45 PM (OGm46)

714 The best reason to support such an accommodation is to consider the consequences of Leftists retaining control in the one area where national government still matters, national security. I'm willing to accommodate whatever class conflicts bruise my ego because of the thought of my family being incinerated in a nuclear blast. Leftists are incapable of defending this nation.

National government as a vehicle for forwarding social conservatism is dead. Politics is downstream of culture and the culture has changed and not to our advantage. It's pointless to fight for it in that arena.

Posted by: Wonkish Rogue at July 09, 2015 06:46 PM (AfbS9)

715 " Our future may well be Mexico, where the elite have the light skin and the money, and the majority are brown and poor. "

That's almost what they're driving at. A permanent, docile underclass that can be controlled and bought off like children with candy and in return the voters reward them in perpetual political power.

Posted by: Ricardo Kill at July 09, 2015 06:46 PM (LA7Cm)

716 "this idea that we can just throw our racial grievances around without care, or that there's a Natural White Majority ready to assert control, is simply false. it is dreaming. It is praying for something impossible and false."

Wow, who is dreaming now? Never heard anyone say that, never entered my mind, never even read that anywhere, on any conservative blog.

You should really tell us who you are getting these ideas from?

On second thought, I have heard that before.....from LaRaza I think, are you projecting their thoughts on Conservatives?

Posted by: pam at July 09, 2015 06:46 PM (EAZ7y)

717 >>Fuck them if they 'don't want to be lumped in with a group of people they consider to be racists'. That's not an option anymore. Just ask any southerner who condemns racism but thinks the southern flag stands for more than slavery.

this is the constant answer. I say, you are alienating likely allies because of your determination of offend their sensitivities.

And the eternal answer: Fuck those sissies.

Whatever. That's the key to politics: Fuck those people who might agree with me and just need me to persuade them in an appealing way they can understand.

Posted by: ace at July 09, 2015 06:47 PM (bhepQ)

718 they alienate those people who do in fact worry about these issues, BUT also do not want to be lumped in with a group of people they consider to be racists.

This may well be true about Trump's remarks--I agree that they were poorly stated. But even if he had clearly stated that our immigration policies are enabling rapists to rape, and are letting hardened criminals into the United States, he (or anyone else, up to and including Bobby Jindal or Marco Rubio, were they to say it) would have been called racist.

It is important to tell the truth, because otherwise the murders and other crimes get ignored. I'm not sure the SF murder would have been the news it is had Trump not said what he said. Crime by illegal immigrants isn't rare.

This is a lot like the Cruz shutdown: even now the political class continually talks about how it hurt the Republican brand; and I agree that it did at the time. But it also cemented in everybody's minds just how much Republicans opposed Obamacare. And that mattered in 2014 after more people got pushed onto it.

Posted by: Stephen Price Blair at July 09, 2015 06:47 PM (J0IP0)

719 and "character" is a word I rarely associate with politicians, and never with Teh Donald.

Yeah, that was really more of a commentary on the rest of the field.

I probably could have worded it more clearly.

Posted by: Methos at July 09, 2015 06:47 PM (ZbV+0)

720 how many times are we going to have to hear that anger is an all-purpose excuse for shitty behavior?

Every fucking criminal is angry too.

Posted by: ace at July 09, 2015 05:20 PM (bhepQ)

Being nice hasn't worked. At some point people get angry. Instead of paying attention, the CC has acted even worse. The WC didn't abandon the coalition even when they were told to sit down and shut-up and let the CC handle things. They've accomplished nothing and now the WC are ticked.

Posted by: WOPR at July 09, 2015 06:48 PM (nRvEn)

721 Whatever. That's the key to politics: Fuck those people who might agree with me and just need me to persuade them in an appealing way they can understand.

---

Yeah, fuck them! And who the fuck are they calling 'crude'?!

Posted by: Jenny Hates Her Phone at July 09, 2015 06:49 PM (rrG3v)

722
and just need me to persuade them in an appealing way they can understand

Can you give us a couple of For Instances on how this could be done? And not do it by being PC, i.e., following the Left's Rules, or by compromising Conservatism.

Posted by: Soothsayer of the Righteous And Harmonious Fists at July 09, 2015 06:49 PM (OWhnJ)

723 one thing you have to give to progs: They are all about politics all the time.

They clearly want this more than we do.

Posted by: ace at July 09, 2015 06:42 PM (bhepQ)

=========
Not surprising. How many people outside of metro NYC and metro LA buy the NYT or the LAT?

Posted by: mrp at July 09, 2015 06:49 PM (JBggj)

724 And for all this whites have a "bare" majority that ignores that more than HALF of hispanics are in ca and TEXAS.

Those founders, they were fucking genius.

Now we need to win lily white wi for fuck's sake. So yes the white working class is our hunting ground with welcome and overtures to all.

Posted by: Prescient11 at July 09, 2015 06:49 PM (Au7Z/)

725 691.

I'm saying you not voting is not going to make the GOP a more conservative political party.

I also think if they continue to lose elections, there's no guarantee a new political party will spring up. Republicans were greatly in the minority most of post-Depression America and it just stayed that way for a few generations.

I don't have as big a problem with say a Mitt Romney as you do, I didn't feel it was some great betrayal of my principles to vote for him.

If you do feel that way, then of course vote elsewhere, I'm just saying voting this way as a strategy to turn the GOP more conservative is not going to work.

if you really want to make a statement, throw them out in primaries. If all the leadership got their heads chopped off like Eric Cantor did, you'd see a sea-change in the GOP. But sitting out elections so Democrats can win? you get nothing

Posted by: McAdams at July 09, 2015 06:50 PM (rE2PN)

726 this idea that we can just throw our racial grievances around without
care, or that there's a Natural White Majority ready to assert control,
is simply false. it is dreaming. It is praying for something impossible
and false.

And yet, somehow it works for each of the whiny minorities.

Posted by: Methos at July 09, 2015 06:50 PM (ZbV+0)

727 >>684
i think white people have to wrap their heads around the idea -- which
they seem to refuse to accept -- that they are currently only a bit of a
majority, and will not be a majority for much longer.

77% of the population is more than a bit of a majority.

Posted by: Dr Spank at July 09, 2015 06:50 PM (TJCSB)

728 I do see Trump as a viable candidate. The base is mad and fired up. In the general Trump will stay on the message of jobs, if he should have a "47%" moment, he will defend himself and not apologize like Mittens. Jobs are universal. Jobs are for whites, black, Latinos, Asians, everyone. Jobs can unite in the general. Trump just has a way about him where he is so self-confidant that he inspires confidence in his supporters.

Also, I was a reluctant supporter this time around. You see, he was my #1 pick in 2011 when he teased about running. I loved everything about him. His ego. His moxy. His breezy self-confidence, no apologies (remember Breitbart's "apologize for what?"). His going after the birth cert. Loved. It. All. but then when the hoax was released, he accepted it and backed off. Then he didn't even run. Then recently he attacked Pam Geller. Well. He has now actually run, so that fixes one reason I was disappointed. Then, yesterday, he said "if you believe the birth certificate" which fixes another reason of mine (and he going to an event with Sheriff Joe who was instrumental in proving the released BC was a forgery). So the only thing's that's left is the Geller issue. But, he made up for so much with his brilliant attack on the media and the GOP Elites. It's enough for me to say "I support Trump".

Have you been listening to Rush? Or reading his transcripts? He really loves Trump and I've enjoyed reading his thoughts. One transcript link is in my name, click on it and, get this, BE INSPIRED. Right now, I really think Trump has the wind at his back. I really think "this is it". Wow. I've waited four years for this.

I'm not sure pixy allows copy and paste but Rush has this quote from Trump:

"I don't care how much this costs my companies. I want to save my country."

Rush says Trump's going to go after CommonCore next. Also points out that Trump has had several companies part ways with him and that an Establishment candidate would've cried uncle after just two. But Trump keeps on fighting back and, get this, STANDING by what he said.

Posted by: Aslan's Girl at July 09, 2015 06:50 PM (xetep)

729 "We just need to do a better job of winning and that doesn't happen by shrinking our numbers but by gaining new ones."

"Our" numbers included La Hood supporters and Flynn supporters. That's part of the problem. Our resources are being tapped and our brand is being diluted by the La Hoods running under our flag. We can't exist as a party at odds with itself and the La Hood faction has made it clear it's their way or the highway.

Highway it is, and they can enjoy being the junior varsity of the Uniparty.

Swelling your ranks with unwilling conscripts who subvert your effort is a losing game, the more so the more numerous the fair-weather fellow travelers are.

We're a minority party now - I accept that. Pruned, it grows again. Every oranization grows corrupt and requires reform and renewal. I just don't see any other way to move forward under the dead weight of the establishment GOP. We have to step away and make our own way.

Posted by: SocietyIs2Blame at July 09, 2015 06:51 PM (WIOql)

730

ace, X Class is sort of like the "No Collar" on the recent survivor.

Fussel saw a class of people who ignored the cultural signifiers of all groups and tried to live less materially/almost outdoorsy, if I remember right. But the upper middle glommed on to that too, so it's the difference between someone who really likes to hike/raft/etc., and someone who does it so they can buy the gear and look cool.

Read the book, you'll love it. It is unquestionably exactly what you've come to on your own

Posted by: imp at July 09, 2015 06:52 PM (XIXZz)

731 >this is the constant answer. I say, you are alienating likely allies because of your determination of offend their sensitivities.

What 'likely allies'? Seriously, ace - you tell me who these people are, who would ally with us if only we just bowed down and refused to do anything that they find 'insensitive'? Nor is it my 'determination to defend their sensitivities'. The confederate flag was an off-the-radar non-issue until one jackass went on a shooting spree.

What I refuse to do is let people who are literally capable of *manufacturing aggression* dictate what I say or how I act on those terms alone, and it's suicide to follow that path. Many people are also TREMENDOUSLY offended that, in the wake of those shootings, no 'common sense gun control legislation' gets passed - largely because those insensitive pricks, the NRA, fight like crazy against it.

Exactly how much blame should be foisted onto them for being so insensitive and resisting the calls to 'have a dialogue about gun control'?

>Whatever. That's the key to politics: Fuck those people who might agree with me and just need me to persuade them in an appealing way they can understand.

Who are these people who 'might agree with' us? Name the groups that would otherwise sign on with the GOP if only the party were more sensitive to their issues, and what those issues are. And let's see if sacrificing those issues leaves a party that won't lose a whole lot of support for taking them up.

Posted by: Crude at July 09, 2015 06:52 PM (/IrCS)

732 While I like Trump sticking his finger in the eyes of the establishment is great, but his detractors are right. He cannot win and may gurantee a Hillary or Bernie win.

Posted by: Tilikum Killer Assault Whale at July 09, 2015 06:53 PM (8marX)

733 "I think white people have to wrap their heads around the idea -- which they seem to refuse to accept -- that they are currently only a bit of a majority, and will not be a majority for much longer."

Yeah, and the invasion by illegal aliens had nothing to do with it.

We are just supposed to be happy that our laws were violated.

Just like we are supposed to be happy that judges illegally overturned the will of the voters on homosexual marriage.

The view of the uniparty is, you need to accept our thefts gracefully. The uniparty wants us to thank them for raping us.

Posted by: Misfortune & Pestilence at July 09, 2015 06:53 PM (vkf6y)

734 >>>We need to reach out to the white working class for once, for fuck's sake.

right. We're not associated closely enough with that one racial/cultural cohort.

Posted by: ace at July 09, 2015 06:41 PM (bhepQ)

The gop is associated with white people by people who hate white people.
Serious question. How many white people do you think look at the gop and say 'I trust those guys to protect me from the freaks in the democrat party who seek to rob me, beat me, burn my church, and kill me'?

Posted by: Methos at July 09, 2015 06:56 PM (ZbV+0)

735 "Rush has this quote from Trump: "I don't care how much this costs my companies. I want to save my country."

Just because he says it doesn't mean it's true - particularly where it's a statement of intentions. The Pied Piper said he wanted to save the town. Gore said he wanted to save the planet. "I want to believe" isn't good enough when it comes to politicians - look at his track record.

Posted by: SocietyIs2Blame at July 09, 2015 06:57 PM (WIOql)

736 Good Grief, ace thinks White Privilege is a fact and not a leftist/communist deconstruction aimed at dividing and otherizing white people even amongst themselves.

And it's worked.

It's an argument that can never be refuted by a white person because they're words are automatically suspect and less worthy of consideration because OF THEIR SKIN COLOR!!!!

Anyone not seeing the irony in that?

Posted by: Bitter Clinger and All That at July 09, 2015 06:57 PM (x3GpS)

737
ace, we are clearly on the same page as to the *specific* styling of the Trump remarks, but really it's not just about illegal immigration.

Others have long joined me in pointing out that to get any actual message or information through the media blockade (used to be called a "filter", now I think stronger terms are accurate), GOPers or anybody not Of the Body has to challenge premises, attack the professionalism of the press (meaning literally the person they're talking to, when warranted), and explain explain explain.

It's not hard at all, for an informed person of decent verbal intelligence. Many of these pols have that. But they have to do it. On a sustained basis.

Trump's brouhaha was an open invite to a serious candidate to do something. Perfect thing to play off. Attention was already drawn to The Forbidden Topic. All that needed to be done (needs, still?) was for a more serious candidate to come out forcefully about all the ills of mass illegal immigration, which the country firmly opposes. And if the standard media lynching starts? "I paid for this microphone" no longer cuts it. But I could write the words and the strategy for obliterating the press and the Dems on this topic in this situation between shifts at Friday hockey scrimmage.

Posted by: rhomboid at July 09, 2015 06:58 PM (QDnY+)

738 >>>Who are these people who 'might agree with' us? Name the groups that would otherwise sign on with the GOP if only the party were more sensitive to their issues, and what those issues are.

i've told you three times: There are people who are in fact not happy about rampant immigration and can be persuaded to vote to shut it down *SO LONG AS* they do not think it is racist to vote this way.

But your preference seems to be for candidates who won't let them think that, who are determined to let them know, "Yes, this is about racial animus; you'll just have to get used to that, Princess."

And then they'll vote against you.

Posted by: ace at July 09, 2015 06:58 PM (bhepQ)

739 >He cannot win and may gurantee a Hillary or Bernie win.

Maybe. But if the alternative is Jeb, who the hell cares again? Oh, gosh, it may be harder - not impossible, but harder - to pass legislation lowering marginal tax rates for millionaires at that point. If Jeb or Rubio wins, what the fuck does the GOP win?

Illegal immigration will continue, and we'll likely have a moment where the GOP grants a general amnesty to illegal immigrants.

Gay marriage will be considered a settled issue, and if Indiana was anything to go by, any attempt to even protect religious people from being sued into oblivion for not wanting to provide service to a same-sex wedding ceremony will go down in flames.

We'll see SCOTUS justices appointed who will follow in the mold of past republican picks.

We'll likely see yet more increasing of the government's size in the name of 'compassionate conservatism II'.

Wow. Thrilling. How can we possibly be willing to risk THAT outcome? It is a mystery.

Posted by: Crude at July 09, 2015 06:58 PM (/IrCS)

740 >>"Our" numbers included La Hood supporters and Flynn supporters. That's part of the problem. Our resources are being tapped and our brand is being diluted by the La Hoods running under our flag. We can't exist as a party at odds with itself and the La Hood faction has made it clear it's their way or the highway.

My point is beat LaHood. We can't just slam a candidate we don't like when they lose we also have to admit when our guy loses and figure out how to win.

Flynn sounds like someone I would have been happy with but he lost. And that's his fault and our fault if we really believe we have a better message.

And tired of hearing whining about the establishment. How about we beat them every once in a while and take power. You want respect from the establishment? Beat them.

Posted by: JackStraw at July 09, 2015 06:58 PM (OGm46)

741 "sorry, what trump said was crude

Posted by: ace at July 09, 2015 06:20 PM"

I think crude is in the eye of the beholder. I don't see it as crude, and I don't like crude (i.e. my thoughts on Palin), but even if it was crude, it is what got him press. The press' spotlight on his comments were supposed to hurt him, but with the murder of Steinle, those comments that the press had been broadcasting, made people think, "hey, he was right!" If the media hadn't made such a to-do out of those comments, the people who watch the MSM might've never known he said it in the first place.

Also, what he said wasn't nearly on par with what Akin said (and I agree with Akin, btw), plus, Trump didn't fold on what he said, he doubled-down. And people liked it. Even if it's crude, if people want crude, then they should be allowed to have crude. This is a government of, for, and by the people, ain't it?

Just try to be glad that *people*, you know the VOTERS, not the intelligensia, are responding positively to one of our guys for once! He leads by FOUR in NC which is a huge number in such a crowded field. He leads nationally now too. With Jeb being a ValJar buddy, this is an answer to prayer! The footsoldiers really didn't think this was possible. This is a MIRACLE. This is the USA vs USSR hockey game. Just try to be happy about it. It is the ONLY positive developement we've had in ages. My personal life is awful right now, our country is in dire straights. I'll take any happiness I can cling to right now.

Posted by: Aslan's Girl at July 09, 2015 06:59 PM (xetep)

742 "684 i think white people have to wrap their heads around the idea -- which they seem to refuse to accept -- that they are currently only a bit of a majority, and will not be a majority for much longer."

I get 77.7% from Wikipedia. If that's correct I think its more than a bit of a majority. I also think (gasp) it's a demographic that the GOP might considering going after a bit more. Appeasing those who stubbornly refuse to vote for them hasn't worked out so well.

Posted by: Reggie1971 at July 09, 2015 06:59 PM (KVRil)

743 thanks, aslan girl.

Posted by: ace at July 09, 2015 06:32 PM (bhepQ)

Well, goodness. Didn't expect such a nice response. Better than premium membership. Hmmm, maybe this means I'll get ampersands to work now? LOL!

Posted by: Aslan's Girl at July 09, 2015 07:01 PM (xetep)

744 There are people who are in fact not happy about rampant immigration and can be persuaded to vote to shut it down *SO LONG AS* they do not think it is racist to vote this way.

Therein lies the rub, because the left and the media (BIRM) will never allow this issue to not be portrayed as racist.

Posted by: Country Singer at July 09, 2015 07:01 PM (nL0sw)

745 Probably too late to the thread for anyone to notice or remark on this but...

Rather than focusing on specific wedge issues and having to agree 100% on them, why don't we instead start talking about underlying principles, like freedom, responsibility, etc?

In other words, why not start selling the idea that conservatism is all about freedom -- which was how Reagan managed to succeed with voters, against the will of the GOP comfortable class.

Posted by: elaine at July 09, 2015 07:01 PM (Y0Piu)

746 Maybe. But if the alternative is Jeb, who the hell cares again?

If Jeb could win, I would support him. He did good things in Florida, and if the next Republican president did nothing but enable school choice across the country and get rid of the ACA, we'd be in a much better position.

But Trump has a better chance than Bush this time around (which is not saying Trump can win).

Posted by: Stephen Price Blair at July 09, 2015 07:01 PM (J0IP0)

747 Well, I did learn from this thread that the "professional white class" of Republicans are still scared of their own shadows.

They will never be able to fight the left, only the Conservative Christian old, and gauche, people in their party raise their hackles with "crude" behavior and words.

Fuck that.

Posted by: pam at July 09, 2015 07:01 PM (EAZ7y)

748 What i don't understand ace is that what you are stating directly contradicts your prior posts.

In that i'm sick of the gope and the bs.

Tell me one policy they have that benefits the working man?

The country is begging for a populist, freedom loving, local rule anti-big govt message.

Posted by: Prescient11 at July 09, 2015 07:02 PM (Au7Z/)

749 Screw the comfortable class. Unlike Charlie Brown I'm not kicking their football again.

Fool me once, shame on you.

Fool me twice, shame on me.

Posted by: amanwithnoparty at July 09, 2015 07:03 PM (sbaXF)

750

White people have "white privilege" because Europeans built this nation and conquered the globe. It's the privilege of being in a population cohort that combines ruthlessness, intelligence, boldness, creativity, and individuality to greater degrees than any other---as a group.

Then we became guilty and got the sads

Boo dee whoo. Name one country that is better off now than when under the control of people of European descent? Asians have a higher G score, Africans have physical gifts, Arabs have ... well, they have a lot of oil. But apart from the Macedonians and the Mongols, no other population has mastered the planet like modern "white" people.

Posted by: imp at July 09, 2015 07:03 PM (XIXZz)

751 So the idea is that the two classes must work together. Sounds nice, but this idea of classes aside, the GOP establishment won't work with the conservatives in the party. That have proved it again and again, so what to do? The answer is to fire them, to take their power away. Millions refused to vote for Romney and they still didn't get the message. If we don't win in 2016 all is lost. Not figuratively; literally. As in for real and forever, barring another revolution. So fuck the GOP establishment and their willingness to sell out the very idea of this Republic to whatever graft they can score while the game lasts. If it takes a Trump to win back the upper hand, I'm voting Trump. Tired o this shit.

Posted by: Kaner at July 09, 2015 07:04 PM (3Duad)

752 Nood hack

Posted by: Bitter Clinger and All That at July 09, 2015 07:04 PM (x3GpS)

753 "Right. We're not associated closely enough with that one racial/cultural cohort."

Are you suggesting we should resist being associated with the white working class because it's "bad for our image" ? Do we need more "outreach" ?

Outreach is what created the downward demographic death spiral for the Right in the first place - by all means, let's have more, faster.

You can't avoid charges of racism and white supremacy by internalizing the false charges.

There's nothing wrong with white people - OMG, yes I said it. Culturally, I think America, Britain, Canada and Australia are superior to other nations, in large part because of our shared heritage and traditions. Why should I wear sackcloth and ashes and beg after the pennies and smiles of those foreign to that tradition? Why is "ethnic pride" just another one-way ratchet?

Posted by: SocietyIs2Blame at July 09, 2015 07:05 PM (WIOql)

754 >i've told you three times: There are people who are in fact not happy about rampant immigration and can be persuaded to vote to shut it down *SO LONG AS* they do not think it is racist to vote this way.

Then you and I are at any impasse, because you seem to think placating the mob is the path to success. I look at years, even decades, of shit like that, realize it doesn't work, and notice a problem: we can't forever act like that 'That's Racist!' charge has weight when it doesn't.

Sometimes, ace, you have to defend someone who fucked up and said something that the media finds condemnation worthy. And I think this is one of those times.

If Trump went on some rant about how 'wetbacks are like blacks, except more dangerous since they have that fiery latin passion', I'd be fucking condemning him too. But him simply making that point that you know, a lot of these illegal immigrants are actually less-than-desirable? That's not odious racism that we need to expunge. That's the sort of thing we need to say, you know what, calling this contemptible racism is fucking insane.

>But your preference seems to be for candidates who won't let them think that, who are determined to let them know, "Yes, this is about racial animus; you'll just have to get used to that, Princess."

You think I prefer Trump as a -candidate-? Since when? I just refuse to condemn him, and I think he's providing a net -positive- here. For once, someone didn't decide to just back down and apologize profusely the moment the media decided to dogpile on him. Hell, even when he started losing business contracts left and right, he stood by his words.

Tell me that that's not admirable in some way.

Oh, should he have acted like every politician - and sadly, almost every religious leader - in Indiana when they decided to cast the Indiana law as the 'You can let gays DIE IN THE STREET if you're an EMT' law? When suddenly a pretty meager law to protect religious businesses became horrible gay-killing theocracy? Was totally giving up and backing off on THAT law, so as not to offend people's sensibilities, the right move?

If so, get used to giving up. In fact, at that point? Team SJW doesn't give a shit if you win, because they can count on you to do whatever they like even if you're in power.

Posted by: Crude at July 09, 2015 07:05 PM (/IrCS)

755 Yes pam, that is the lesson.

the gope is content to have their policies denounced as racist every fucking day.

The real man steps up and says those are my policies, go fuck yourselves and actually TALKS to the american people about them.

Posted by: Prescient11 at July 09, 2015 07:05 PM (Au7Z/)

756
JackStraw, if you're still here, this is sort of side-topic, if not O/T, but the radical transformation of the Dem party in the 90s/early 2000s still mystifies me a bit (and some of my friends, who were long-time Dem staffers in that period and just before it).

The loathsome and bizarre Harry Reid, to take one prominent example. He wasn't worried about being primaried. He certainly wasn't in danger of being outflanked from the left in NV, by a Republican.

But he went from fairly conservative western/mountain Dem (I'm not kidding) to this bizarre repugnant freak that he became. The Reid of 1986 would not recognize one bit of the Reid of 2015. Anyway, Reid's not the only one, and I myself still just cannot understand WTF happened to the Dems at the national level the last 25 years.

Posted by: rhomboid at July 09, 2015 07:06 PM (QDnY+)

757 I loved this from Rush:

"Look at what Donald Trump has done. Donald Trump has single-handedly
changed the debate in terms of electoral politics now. There is a bunch
of us who have been saying similar things, doing similar things. But
none of us is running for president and none of us has been covered by
the media day in/day out with every syllable that we utter. Donald Trump
has changed the entire debate on immigration, and he is not the story
today. The story today is sanctuary cities."

Trump has already done a huge service.

Laura Ingraham was on Fox yesterday and she said that up until Trump changed the subject, all the Republicans have been talking about is the Iran deal and ISIS. So true. Yeah, they're both important, but we've got so many OTHER issues too. Trump reminds everyone of those other issues.

Posted by: Aslan's Girl at July 09, 2015 07:07 PM (xetep)

758 "How about we beat them every once in a while and take power. You want respect from the establishment? Beat them."

I plan to - with our own party, not theirs. My point is you're hamstringing yourself by trying to defeat the establishment from within their own party. House odds are hard to beat.

Posted by: SocietyIs2Blame at July 09, 2015 07:07 PM (WIOql)

759

The only people who don't like talking about class are those insecure in their own. We have classes here in the USSA, it's why Al Cervick was funny and Judge Smails was equally funny. People raised in different classes act differently, think differently, and generally do not get along.

Posted by: imp at July 09, 2015 07:08 PM (XIXZz)

760 I'm fairly boggled that Ace is complaining about vulgar and low class humor, here. Does he think we talk like this around our families or the watercooler at work?

Posted by: Grump928(C) blurts at July 09, 2015 07:08 PM (rwI+c)

761 "Just because he says it doesn't mean it's true - particularly where it's a statement of intentions. The Pied Piper said he wanted to save the town."

So Fuvking what? You really think ANY of the republican candidates (aside from Trump) will stop the invasion?

Did they stop Obama at all? No. They gave him Obamatrade instead.

Posted by: Misfortune & Pestilence at July 09, 2015 07:08 PM (vkf6y)

762 >>>Then you and I are at any impasse, because you seem to think placating the mob is the path to success

not saying things easily branded as racist = "placating the mob"

Posted by: ace at July 09, 2015 07:09 PM (bhepQ)

763 The only way to unify these groups is to give free shit to everyone. Which obviously is the democrat's arena.
Posted by: tsrblke, PhD(c) rogue bioethicst at July 09, 2015 04:50 PM (s92xH)

Unfortunately, I think you are correct. I know blue collar whites, big Limbaugh fans, and they howled like banshees when Bush tried to reform SS. They were absolutely unwilling to consider math and demographics - all they knew was they paid in and they damn well deserve every cent they get from it and don't anybody dare touch it. And then the next moment, they'll bitch about welfare cases.

And yeah, unfortunately I also know comfortable class Republicans (aka MooMoos) who will tell you they are fiscally conservative, but they hate those icky socons and that's the only reason the kooky kidz hate us.

Posted by: Donna &&&&&& V. (brandishing ampersands) at July 09, 2015 07:09 PM (+XMAD)

764 >>>We need to reach out to the white working class for once, for fuck's sake.

right. We're not associated closely enough with that one racial/cultural cohort.

Posted by: ace at July 09, 2015 06:41 PM (bhepQ)

But remember the stat that came out after we lost in 2012? It found that if Romney had gotten a MERE 1-2% more of the WHITE vote, yes, 1-2%, he'd have won. Instead, GOP betrays a sure vote in their base and keeps going after the mythical Latino vote so they lose the whole thing.

Posted by: Aslan's Girl at July 09, 2015 07:09 PM (xetep)

765 For an idea of how the class system worked (late 19th century Great Britain) in an actual example, see the disagreement over James Whistler's decoration of shipowner Frederick Leyland's dining room. Leyland was displeased by the artist's work, but finally agreed to pay - but not in guineas--the currency of
professionals and artists--but rather in pounds, the currency of trade.

Posted by: Linda Roberts at July 09, 2015 07:10 PM (tKcuX)

766 this is what annoys the shit out of me: We don't disagree on policy, Crude.

All we disagree on is your DETERMINATION that you will get to engage in some racially-blunt talk and that other people will just have to get over their insensitivities.

It's like your more married to the racially-blunt talk than the actual issue.

So this is all just about personal catharsis and championing one class's mores over another -- and not about actual policy changes.

Like I said. Like this whole post was about.

Posted by: ace at July 09, 2015 07:11 PM (bhepQ)

767 Time for you to read "Class" by Paul Fussell, Ace

Posted by: Avi at July 09, 2015 07:11 PM (4bND1)

768 760
I'm fairly boggled that Ace is complaining about vulgar and low class humor, here. Does he think we talk like this around our families or the watercooler at work?

Posted by: Grump928(C) blurts at July 09, 2015 07:08 PM (rwI+c)

Heh. Yeah, Ace used a sickening pron term just a few weeks ago wrt Hillary. Ace would say tho that he ain't running.
Believe me, I used to be on the same page as Ace wanting professionalism from my leaders. Eight years of Obama and I no longer CARE. In fact, professionalism is often just another word for mamby-pamby. I want BOLD colors. Trump is the boldest color out there: he is a freakin' radioactive glowing orb.

Posted by: Aslan's Girl at July 09, 2015 07:11 PM (xetep)

769

Grump, profanity is neither high class or low class. Vulgarity is a different story. It is the difference between the suburban soccer mom who weighs 125 and goes to yoga and Whole Foods and the "working" mom who is 250 and goes to Walmart and wherever they go for amusement. My sister married down. My brother married up (somewhat). Both in-laws caused friction because of the different cultural mores. But they all swore like sailors when pissed. One just did it more quietly.

Posted by: imp at July 09, 2015 07:11 PM (XIXZz)

770 Pixy is letting me copy paste again! Woohoo!

Posted by: Aslan's Girl at July 09, 2015 07:12 PM (xetep)

771 Ugh, but still no ampersand. Oh well, can't have it all.

Posted by: Aslan's Girl at July 09, 2015 07:12 PM (xetep)

772 764 >>>We need to reach out to the white working class for once, for fuck's sake.

right. We're not associated closely enough with that one racial/cultural cohort. >>>>>>>>

Being associated with it and going after it aren't quite same thing.

Posted by: Reggie1971 at July 09, 2015 07:13 PM (KVRil)

773 "Well, I did learn from this thread that the "professional white class" of Republicans are still scared of their own shadows.

They will never be able to fight the left, only the Conservative Christian old, and gauche, people in their party raise their hackles with "crude" behavior and words.

Fuck that."

^^^THIS^^^ +1,000,000 times

Posted by: Misfortune & Pestilence at July 09, 2015 07:13 PM (vkf6y)

774 To wrap Ace, one shocking/perhaps unique thought.

Who is the "racist" in the Trump kerfuffle?

Consider the whole of Trump's message: Mexico is kicking the fucking shit out of the USA on trade and immigration. Mexico is laughing at us.

What he's saying is that Mexico is SUPERIOR to us and they are BEATING us.

How in the world can someone point out that a country is acting smarter, more tactically sound, than we are, and consider that racist?

No, the real racists are the SJWs and the left. Because it involves Mexicans THEY ASSUME OUT OF HAND that Trump was denigrating them because those lowly mestizos are simply, by definition, inferior and weaker to the hetero white male.

The left thinks that Mexicans are incapable of being superior in anything to anglo USA. Meanwhile Trump points out that Mexico is SUPERIOR and they're kicking our ass. He is giving them RESPECT.

Now tell me, who's the racist here?

Posted by: prescient11 at July 09, 2015 07:13 PM (Au7Z/)

775 Name one country that is better off now than when under the control of people of European descent?

Does Israel count?

Posted by: Methos at July 09, 2015 07:13 PM (ZbV+0)

776 >>>But remember the stat that came out after we lost in 2012? It found that if Romney had gotten a MERE 1-2% more of the WHITE vote, yes, 1-2%, he'd have won. Instead, GOP betrays a sure vote in their base and keeps going after the mythical Latino vote so they lose the whole thing.

you know how this works?

When a GOPer "goes after the Latino vote or black vote," he's not primarily going after the Latino or black vote.

He's *primarily* going after the votes of whites *who will not vote for someone they think is racist.*

This is a political bank shot -- you're not really going after the ball you seem to be going after.

Now sure, they'll take the latino and black votes, but it's the white vote that is bigger game.

I'm sorry, you're being very nice and civil, but I just can't get over this idea that some people are just determined to be, let's put this nicely, racially blunt, even if that will sink the election, over and over again.

Not you I can't take it.

And simultaneously those people want to be called 'not racist," even tho the only disagreement we're having is whether or not you should casually denigrate members of another race.

It sort of begins to sound like people want a sort of Racial Venting over any tangible policy concern.

Posted by: ace at July 09, 2015 07:15 PM (bhepQ)

777 >not saying things easily branded as racist = "placating the mob"

In this specific case, yeah, it's placating the mob.

"When Mexico sends its people, they're not sending their best; they're not sending you," Trump said in his announcement speech. "They're sending people that have lots of problems, and they're bringing those problems with us. They're bringing drugs. They're bringing crime. They're rapists. And some, I assume, are good people.""

There's no 'racism' there to speak of. If anything, it's - wait for it - classist. 'Mexico isn't sending us doctors and lawyers. They're low class people, among whom are drug dealers, criminals, rapists, and yes, there are good people too.'

Have some people reacted horribly? Yep. But the point I keep bringing up - and you keep staying silent on - is that /they reacted horribly in Indiana too'. Hell, you're talking about people who reacted horribly to a scientist wearing the wrong shirt during a scientific announcement, and which also sacked a Nobel Peace prize winning scientist.

And your battle plan is, 'Don't say anything that will upset them, and when they do get upset, capitulate'?

Sorry man. That's not a smart plan - it's a losing plan. It's a loser's plan, for people who think that the biggest problem standing between them and political success is that their allies aren't nearly as subservient and sensitive as they should be.

Because clearly being meek and humble has been demonstrated by the left to be the route to political success, right?

Posted by: Crude at July 09, 2015 07:15 PM (/IrCS)

778

The "middle class" of today was the lower middle class of Fussel's day. That is the really sad situation, and something that happened before Obama's watch.

We are allowing corporations to force us into subservience and accept a lower standard of living than our parents. That is tragic, and the end of America in a very concrete way.

Posted by: imp at July 09, 2015 07:15 PM (XIXZz)

779 "So Fuvking what? You really think ANY of the republican candidates (aside from Trump) will stop the invasion?"

I don't think Trump will either - see the earlier post where he was against deportation before he was for it. Liars tend to keep lying. Politics doesn't often make you more honest. If Paul Krugman starts quoting Milton Friedman because it's suddenly to his advantage, I'm not going to buy it.

The entire GOP talked up fighting amnesty, fighting ObamaCare, etc all last year and sold out in record time. Why the hell do people think Trump is any different than guys like Boehner? He was cunning enough to seize on a good issue no one else would touch. It's the issue that matters, not the man (or lack thereof).

Posted by: SocietyIs2Blame at July 09, 2015 07:16 PM (WIOql)

780
Methos, dunno (NGU or JJ help me), but isn't Israel majority ashkenazim (European vs. Middle East descent)? Would think so, esp. with the huge Russian/Ukrainian influx in the 90s.

Posted by: rhomboid at July 09, 2015 07:16 PM (QDnY+)

781 Ace, name a Republican that can do what you request?

The only reason blunt talk resonates is because we have no other! And why can Dems talk bluntly and crudely.....and it matters not to voters or the media?

Posted by: pam at July 09, 2015 07:17 PM (EAZ7y)

782 >>>.I'm fairly boggled that Ace is complaining about vulgar and low class humor, here. Does he think we talk like this around our families or the watercooler at work?

like I said, some people just still haven't heard -- or won't accept -- that *racially insensitive* jokes are in a different class now. A worse class.

Whatever, I'm glad you work somewhere where no one would be bothered by websites featuring lots of racial humor, but other people work in other places where such things are considered beneath our class.

Posted by: ace at July 09, 2015 07:18 PM (bhepQ)

783

people want a sort of Racial Venting over any tangible policy concern.

Posted by: ace

That is exactly what people want, ace. Why would anyone willingly give up cultural hegemony? Whites are bitter and scared about this "realignment" and they need a vent, or we will get a Hitler.

Posted by: imp at July 09, 2015 07:18 PM (XIXZz)

784 "But remember the stat that came out after we lost in 2012? It found that if Romney had gotten a MERE 1-2% more of the WHITE vote, yes, 1-2%, he'd have won. Instead, GOP betrays a sure vote in their base and keeps going after the mythical Latino vote so they lose the whole thing."

Right. This is a red herring. They don't need the minority vote or the hispanic vote.

The left wants illegals for voters.
The republicans wants illegals for their benefactors.

They don't want the white vote. The white vote is their worst nightmare that's why they lose it on purpose.

Posted by: Misfortune & Pestilence at July 09, 2015 07:19 PM (vkf6y)

785 688 Most people still don't understand this

Posted by: MAx at July 09, 2015 07:19 PM (YJeFl)

786 tell me the truth:

Is the real argument we're having that Racism is Justified and we ought not to be bothered by it, or be stigmatized for it?

Tell me the fucking truth, because I'm really starting to feel that is THE REAL POINT that people are unwilling to state openly.

Posted by: ace at July 09, 2015 07:19 PM (bhepQ)

787 745
Probably too late to the thread for anyone to notice or remark on this but...

Rather
than focusing on specific wedge issues and having to agree 100% on
them, why don't we instead start talking about underlying principles,
like freedom, responsibility, etc?

In other words, why not start
selling the idea that conservatism is all about freedom -- which was how
Reagan managed to succeed with voters, against the will of the GOP
comfortable class.

Posted by: elaine at July 09, 2015 07:01 PM (Y0Piu)

Polls show the majority of Americans are against amnesty. Poll after poll. Trump's got those people paying attention. I think that might be called "winning".

Posted by: Aslan's Girl at July 09, 2015 07:19 PM (xetep)

788 sorry, I guess I am UMC in that I do not wish to associate myself who think that racial jokes are cool for public sharing.

Posted by: ace at July 09, 2015 07:20 PM (bhepQ)

789 The entire GOP talked up fighting amnesty, fighting ObamaCare, etc all last year and sold out in record time. Why the hell do people think Trump is any different than guys like Boehner? He was cunning enough to seize on a good issue no one else would touch. It's the issue that matters, not the man (or lack thereof).

---

This has been puzzling me the whole time. I've decided most probably don't really think Trump is any different, they're just taking the opportunity to have a little RageGasm

Posted by: Jenny Hates Her Phone at July 09, 2015 07:20 PM (rrG3v)

790 i] finally agreed to pay - but not in guineas--the currency of
professionals and artists--but rather in pounds, the currency of trade.
Posted by: Linda Roberts at July 09, 2015 07:10 PM (tKcuX)

Hah, and I guineas were gold pieces and pounds were/are "paper", right?

Posted by: Tammy al-Thor at July 09, 2015 07:21 PM (DI417)

791 We can't be blunt because certain white voters might interpet it as racist? So what? Do you really think that ilk is going to vote for us otherwise?

Posted by: Reggie1971 at July 09, 2015 07:22 PM (KVRil)

792 Show the the Comfortable Class Republican who is actually (not nominally) against immigration, especially illegal and most especially H1B visas, really, not nominally, against abortion, against federal control of education, and really (not nominally) in favor of ending the f'ing deficit within a few years.

Him, I'll vote for.

A coalition that achieves exactly none of the things that are necessary to save this country is of no interest to me.

Why on earth should I be in a coalition with them again?

Oh, yeah, we can "win", which evidently means to put people I hate in positions of power so they can betray me. Win what? What exactly do they intend to do except lie?

Posted by: Danby at July 09, 2015 07:22 PM (Us1po)

793 >All we disagree on is your DETERMINATION that you will get to engage in some racially-blunt talk and that other people will just have to get over their insensitivities.

>It's like your more married to the racially-blunt talk than the actual issue.

No, I'm more married to the idea of having self-respect and being reasonable. The only 'racial' thing about what Trump said was that he was talking about Mexico. That's it. I'm more than happy to condemn cases of actual racist talk, and Trump's - for better or for worse - wasn't that. 'Condemned by the media' != 'Racist'.

You're telling me that we have to be sensitive to what amounts to 'anything the media determines to be offensive'. In case you've been sleeping through the past decade - 'offense' is now pretty easy. Scientist's shirts are offensive. Reruns of the Dukes of Hazzard are offensive. Speedy Gonzalez is offensive, and the Ten Commandments is offensive, and a moment of silence is offensive, and EVERYthing is offensive.

And that list grows.

You keep talking about how my view and the views of those like me is electoral suicide, but what you can't see is that your views are worse. You say we're on the same side politically, but guess what: wanting to secure the border, stop illegal immigration, and maybe even encourage the illegals who remain here to leave *is also regarded as racist* in many quarters.

That's what you don't appreciate. You keep saying 'Guys, don't say things people will consider racist', as if 'that which is considered racist' is reasonable, or under your control. It's not.

Posted by: Crude at July 09, 2015 07:23 PM (/IrCS)

794

ace, again let me recommend Fussel. The lower middle wants to be higher (think Keeping Up Appearances) and the upper middle don't want to be embarassed by the mores of the lower middle.

The new twist on this centuries-old issue is the injection of race, and the remolding of our nation along racial lines. Whites are attacking each other to maintain position against non-whites by taking down each other. God forbid we get someone skilled enough to unite whites against everyone else. Because that will get ugly. Fast.

Once a majority of the upper middle realizes they can be replaced by Jajneesh from Mumbai (Hi, Disney!) we will see a true demagogue.

Posted by: imp at July 09, 2015 07:24 PM (XIXZz)

795 "He's *primarily* going after the votes of whites *who will not vote for someone they think is racist.*"

Consider me skeptical on the utility of political bank-shots.

Is there any count on "likely Republican voters - if the Republicans weren't racist?"

You've pointed out that Romney won 60% of the white vote. How many more do you think a right winger could win if they "weren't racist" ? Say what you will about Romney, but I don't think a lot of people outside the MSNBC demo (who we aren't persuading anyway) thought that he was a racist.

Of the 7 million stay-at-home white non-voters comparing 2008-2012, how many stayed home because John McCain and Sarah Palin weren't racist, but Romney and Ryan were ?

My theory - if "racism" is a major factor in your voting preferences, you're not a likely right wing voter.

Chasing that vote, like the "naturally conservative Hispanic" is chasing a unicorn, and I think it tilting at those windmills costs us significant net votes from our normal base.

Posted by: SocietyIs2Blame at July 09, 2015 07:25 PM (WIOql)

796 Posted by: ace at July 09, 2015 07:15 PM (bhepQ)

Hmm, I see what you're saying, but if our candidate was strong on border security, and I mean more than just the lip-service we get now, it could not only play to whites, but also to working blacks and Hispanics who are most at risk of an illegal taking his/her job. If we weren't so racially divided by Obama right now, we could actually find common ground on this issue. I think. It might get us the 1-2% more whites that we need, but yes, only if it doesn't come across as racial. But Trump wasn't being racial. He got misquoted by, get this, the MSM. In fact, Trump mentioned non-Mexicans who are coming across in ISIS. Guess that's racial, too.

Posted by: Aslan's Girl at July 09, 2015 07:25 PM (xetep)

797 "I don't think Trump will either"

Again, so fuvking what? I know the Republican won't - 100% sure.

With Trump I've got a 50-50 shot.

If he doesn't the burning goes on just the same and I'd rather Trump bilk the country than the uniparty. At least he's built some useful buildings and employed people. What has the uniparty done for us?

Posted by: Misfortune & Pestilence at July 09, 2015 07:26 PM (vkf6y)

798
ace, your exchange with Crude is interesting, and thanks for mixing it up here in the comments - it's great.

But I'm perplexed. As with anything else, an example surely exists in the universe of almost anything wecan imagine.

But who are the people you keep referring to who make racially crude jokes as a way of venting racial resentment? Commenters here?

Surely there is no public figure today who comes close to this (well, I mean WHITE public figure! ...... there is that little problem of a president we have, for example).

And your tactical point about *not* alienating, vs. attracting, certain votes. Hmmm. Again, such examples surely exist. Material to any electoral outcomes? Fairly skeptical about that.

And this leaves aside the framework problem. That is, with the outlandish distortion now standard for the media, against anyone not Of The Body, what one actually says (certainly any nuance) is almost moot. All that counts - or would count, if anyone would actually do it - is aggressively challenging and refuting premises, explaining actual facts and processes, and attacking the professionalism of the press. Without these things, any non-fascist or non-racist running nationally today is counting on sheer luck to have a chance.

Posted by: rhomboid at July 09, 2015 07:26 PM (QDnY+)

799 Chasing that vote, like the "naturally conservative
Hispanic" is chasing a unicorn, and I think it tilting at those
windmills costs us significant net votes from our normal base.

Posted by: SocietyIs2Blame at July 09, 2015 07:25 PM (WIOql)

Polls show that Hispanics are leftists. Majority supports gay marriage now for instance.

Posted by: Aslan's Girl at July 09, 2015 07:26 PM (xetep)

800 >Is the real argument we're having that Racism is Justified and we ought not to be bothered by it, or be stigmatized for it?

>Tell me the fucking truth, because I'm really starting to feel that is THE REAL POINT that people are unwilling to state openly.

No, the real point is that not everything determined to be 'RACIST' by our would be cultural masters really is. Often - and you should really fucking know this by now - being told "what you said is racist and despicable" is, actually, wrong.

Now a question for you.

http://time.com/3589392/comet-shirt-storm/

This guy's shirt pissed off the media and feminists to the point where he ended up offering a blubbering apology for his transgression.

Was he right to do so? Is that what you think any self-respecting conservative (not that this guy fucking was) should do when accused of being TERRIBLY insensitive?

Because if not, well congratulations - you're starting to see the point some of us are making.

And if so, well then, also congratulations - you've not only lost, but you've literally argued yourself into a mental space that makes it impossible for you to ever win. But good news! If you make a video of yourself offering up a blubbering apology for having had a hand in running 'that hate site, Ace of Spades', you may get a pat on the head and a guest spot on Bill Maher's show.

Posted by: Crude at July 09, 2015 07:27 PM (/IrCS)

801

who think that racial jokes are cool for public sharing

"Racial" or "racist"?

I think Chappelle is funny as shit. That's all "racial" right there. I even think it's funny if someone whiter than paper made the jokes, but there's a mean-sprirted angle to be avoided. Funny is funny. You used to say/know that ace. I know we can't have them here b/c the tone-deaf and or actual racists always want to take it too far, but truly "racial" jokes should not be out of line.

Posted by: imp at July 09, 2015 07:27 PM (XIXZz)

802 Good ideas, except . . . the professional class lies so often to the middle class. We've supported their candidates many times just to get Bush pushing amnesty or his dad pushing higher taxes. Newt Gingrich attacking Clinton while boinking some piece on the side. How can you join with or even negotiate with that kind of flagrant dishonesty?

I don't think a hero of the middle class has ever been supported by the professional class. Reagan ran when the party was less divided.

Posted by: Old Hob at July 09, 2015 07:29 PM (VRc/p)

803 Rhomboid

>>But he went from fairly conservative western/mountain Dem (I'm not kidding) to this bizarre repugnant freak that he became. The Reid of 1986 would not recognize one bit of the Reid of 2015. Anyway, Reid's not the only one, and I myself still just cannot understand WTF happened to the Dems at the national level the last 25 years.

He saw which way the wind was blowing and decided it was better to lead the parade than get passed by. Reid has been mostly about taking care of Reid as far as I can tell. His motivating principle is taking care of him and his.

This kind of goes to my point about taking the party rather than abandoning it. Lots of Republicans will discover their inner conservative if that's the way the wind is blowing. I don't give a shit why they do it, I just want them to do it.

But we have to start winning to get that wind blowing.

Posted by: JackStraw at July 09, 2015 07:29 PM (OGm46)

804 "Is the real argument we're having that Racism is Justified and we ought not to be bothered by it, or be stigmatized for it?
Tell me the fucking truth, because I'm really starting to feel that is THE REAL POINT that people are unwilling to state openly."

No. And you're treading close to invoking "code language" reasoning on this, Ace. I've stated myself pretty clearly and if you're taking what I'm saying as "racism," you're taking a page from Toure and Melissa Harris Perry's playbook.

Posted by: SocietyIs2Blame at July 09, 2015 07:30 PM (WIOql)

805 791
We can't be blunt because certain white voters might interpet it as
racist? So what? Do you really think that ilk is going to vote for us
otherwise?

Posted by: Reggie1971 at July 09, 2015 07:22 PM (KVRil)

You know, it might be true that we'd lose some whites who think it's racist, but we would maybe gain that many MORE whites who don't (plus working blacks and Hispanics who are worried illegals take their jobs). Like you said, so many whites stayed home in '12, maybe if they came out to vote, they'd make up for whatever silly white who thinks a candidate is racist... but being against amnesty is not racist in the first place of course. How on earth can wanting to protect the country be that? If we were suffering with an influx of white trash Candadians (are there any?) who were raping and murdering and stealing jobs from cits, we'd be just as mad.

Posted by: Aslan's Girl at July 09, 2015 07:30 PM (xetep)

806 sorry, I guess I am UMC in that I do not wish to associate myself who think that racial jokes are cool for public sharing.

Posted by: ace at July 09, 2015 07:20 PM (bhepQ)

I am lower working class by birth, and I assure you that position is not exclusive to the UMC.

Posted by: Tammy al-Thor at July 09, 2015 07:30 PM (DI417)

807 If the professional Dems and Republicans hived off and formed their own state, there would be no recruits in the military, hardly any children in the schools, and nobody in the pews but plenty of mosques. The professional class has a recipe for self-destruction. As Ed West says, conservatism always wins in the end: the socialists run out of other people's money and the liberal societies run out of people. The question is, are there any non-Muslim conservatives left? Or are we facing an dysgenic idiocracy situation where only the smart people use contraception?

Posted by: bjk at July 09, 2015 07:30 PM (x2rNW)

808 Conservatives did not START the race talk Ace. The left did, and still does.

It is called pushback....when Republicans/Conservatives have been vilified as racists for 30years.....just for being born white, and agreeing with conservative fiscal policies.

And when defending ourselves, we cannot bring up race? Or we are racists?

Nonsense, to have a conversation about race means both parties get to talk about race.

Minorities used to want to be like everyone else, to be included, be a viable part of the melting pot.

Now they want to be separate, and in a constant war with whites.....they have changed from wanting to be part of this nation, to wanting payback I guess.

Posted by: pam at July 09, 2015 07:33 PM (EAZ7y)

809 And if you told a racial joke in your own home in front of my grandmother, who never went to school above the 6th grade because she got married when she was 12, she'd get up, tell you exactly what she thought about your taste in humor, and walk out the door.

If you told it in her home, she'd ask you to leave.

We are not all of us as crude and racist as everyone seems to think.

Posted by: Tammy al-Thor at July 09, 2015 07:34 PM (DI417)

810 If we were suffering with an influx of white trash Canadians (are there any?)

Posted by: andycanuck at July 09, 2015 07:35 PM (kivUY)

811 "And your tactical point about *not* alienating, vs. attracting, certain votes. Hmmm. Again, such examples surely exist. Material to any electoral outcomes? Fairly skeptical about that."

Yeah. And why is it ok to talk about strategies to get black votes, hispanic votes but it's racist to talk about getting white votes? Why can't I be concerned about the white vote that sits out elections without being labeled a racist?

More leftist claptrap.

Posted by: Misfortune & Pestilence at July 09, 2015 07:35 PM (vkf6y)

812
JackStraw, thanks for your response. I was just musing out loud something that several of us who formerly were up close and involved in all this have scratched our heads about for years. Reid as soulless self-promoting eunuch - yeah, that works for me, and of course I'd considered it.

But there's been such a shocking, dramatic lurch of the Dems to the far left in such a short time - not matched by the country, or even many Dem voters (as is evident on many big issues such as amnesty, O-care, etc.).

Posted by: rhomboid at July 09, 2015 07:38 PM (QDnY+)

813 @786...Ace, in my redneck opinion, for what it is worth, there used to be black comedians (prior to 2008 when the racial divide widened and by guess who?) who were able to mock whites and blacks and everyone laughed. Now, I don't mean blackface and mocking to be mocking and white-boy fraternity crap (pardon to any white-boy frats...see what I mean? Everything is pc now, "you guys," which, by the way, Dear Leader said "you guys" to the champion USA soccer females...note I do not say "ladies."). It is that ridiculous.

One of my sons has a black friend. They went to opposing football universities. They joke both about race and football. It can be done if everyone is not so bruising petunia sensitive. Which is why I keep my title, as words, names, stereotypes, do not faze me. I have been pigeonholed my entire life purely because of the Southern state I was born in...which is beautiful, full of good people, food and atmosphere which, during the end of segregation, was not as violent as Boston. But these same people from New England look down their nose when they hear where i am from. Yet I would bet some of these private school Yanks have never had a black friend or classmate.

See what I mean? And I was exposed at a very early age to media bias. So I do not doubt it now.

Racism is not justified now or ever. Neither is the bigotry shown by some Christian denominations to others. Nor the sneering lumping of all Southerners as toothless, inbred troglodytes (those people can especially bite moi). Now, am I bigoted against ISIS and their murdering, raping, torture of innocents and terrorism? You bet I am. And, until our Dear Leader dares to say the three words of "radical islamic terrorism" he will never have my respect.

While Obarfy was able to hide behind any criticism due to "racism," and Hilz will hide behind any criticism due to the very old, stale and moldy "feminism" screed...let it be known now and forevermore that I would vote for Dr. Carson or Condi Rice in a red hot minute. And ALL jug-ears had to do to earn a nanosecond of my respect was to do these two things:
1) Make family important. Two parent family with black father's present and taking responsibility. As Chris Rock formerly said, paraphrased, "It should not be that big of a deal or a brag: you are the father."

2) Make education more important than sports for black males. You see how he has done that with his oh-so-important NCAA basketball brackets (which have lost).

and, I guess, there are three:
3) As the first black president, reduce and shrink the racial divide vs making it wider.

But what does this redneck know? xoxo

Posted by: ChristyBlinky,aging Redneck Queen supermodel, has a Hobbit foot at July 09, 2015 07:39 PM (5br9Q)

814 "But we have to start winning to get that wind blowing."

I'd like to believe that was still viable - but the last election showed just how two-faced they're willing to be. Run conservative, trash the agenda, then tighten up before the next cycle, lather rinse repeat.

Conservatives voting with our feet, concentrating into friendly jurisdictions might allow us more leverage in the GOP, but in the end, I'd rather apply that effort to building a party based on its own credibility, not the past baggage of the GOP. Let those in the GOP who deserve a look come over to our side rather than the other way around. If the leadership wasn't core-rotten I'd have more hope for your method, but I think that cancer's too deeply entwined to extract.

Posted by: SocietyIs2Blame at July 09, 2015 07:40 PM (WIOql)

815 I think the argument is that too many are over sensitive to words that can be taken to be racialist.

And most of those insensitive are insensitive by proxy because they aren't the race being referred to.

And these days just criticizing a black person can be considered by some to be racist and all the bells and whistles go off.

Part of that is that we've lost control of the language. The left controls the language these days and much of what they claim to be so actually means something else. But slowly the new meanings are taking force.

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar and not a substitute for something else.

But if the listener is inclined, then most anything can be twisted and warped into what it was not.

I refer you to the "niggardly" episode and the "black hole" episode. Which I realize are not the situations you're complaining about. Still when you're going to be hung for a lamb, might as well go for a whole sheep would be some peoples reaction.

Posted by: Bitter Clinger and All That at July 09, 2015 07:41 PM (x3GpS)

816 X class was akin to bohemian.

Posted by: Avi at July 09, 2015 07:43 PM (4bND1)

817 I have to take off for now, ace, primarily because I want to play some fucking Warframe and do some art. But a few parting shots.

1) I'm not defending 'racist jokes' or racial slurs or racist talk or racist anything. I'm saying that Trump didn't say anything racist (it was, at worst, class-offensive), and that this conservative habit of cringing away from racism charges is a liability. The goal of 'talk about securing the border, or the problems with radical islam, in a way that the media will not interpret through a horrible racist lens' is insane. It's the a bit like asking, 'How do we propose a crackdown on illegal immigration in a way that MSNBC won't dare suggest is racist?' Surprise! There's no way to do that. You're not dealing with a fair world.

2) This idea of there being a wealth of people out there who want to secure the border but refuse to do so if the policy is cast as racist, and it's possible to secure the border and deal with illegal immigration in a way that won't be cast as racists, is just a pipe dream. It's not happening, and those people likely don't exist in meaningful numbers.

3) This demand that conservatives all perpetually walk on eggshells (to pursue the insane path-to-success listed in point 2) is morally and intellectually wearying, and probably helps decrease turnout and conservative motivation a hell of a lot more than anything else. People are flocking to Trump not because he's a great conservative candidate, or because 'golly gee, finally - a racist to vote for!' They're flocking to him because he spoke up, said something try - if 'divisive' - and he, in an age where every conservative blinks the moment the media so much as glares at them, hasn't backed down. You would think there'd be a lesson to learn from Trump's sudden, if temporary, success - but no, apparently we should really be taking advice from Boehner about how to convert people over to conservative policy positions.

Posted by: Crude at July 09, 2015 07:46 PM (/IrCS)

818 One point we've overlooked - Romney lost 80% of the vote for those earning 50k or less - regardless of race.

You can make a good argument that his poor "minority" showing stemmed as much from their lower average socioeconomics as their identity group.

I don't think many people outside the hard-Left saw him as "racist" but I think most working class people saw him as a rich, out of touch oligarch.

If you want to do "minority outreach" do it by addressing the concerns of the working class to which they disproportionately belong, not with pandering "what up?" BS from clowns like Michael Steele.

Posted by: SocietyIs2Blame at July 09, 2015 07:48 PM (WIOql)

819 I just finished reading Ann Coulter's "Adios, America" and it is enraging. Immigration, both legal and illegal, really is the most important issue today. And she points out that RINO Romney, who failed to win enough of the white vote and therefore lost the election in 2012, was/is the only presidential candidate who has been consistent in opposing amnesty, driver's licenses for illegals, benefits for illegals, etc. I wonder if some of the lack of support among the base was really just resentment of his wealth and gentlemanly demeanor (as opposed to Trump's bare-knuckle style of politics),i.e., the working class base just couldn't back a clearly upper-class Republican, even though his politics more closely aligned with theirs then some of the candidates who came across as more middle-class.

Posted by: biancaneve at July 09, 2015 07:51 PM (vP4/o)

820 I grew up in a blue collar neighborhood and heard some pretty racist jokes back in the day (although I probably heard more Polish jokes - told by Poles - than anything else).

I can't remember the last time I heard a racist joke and I still occasionally see some of the people I grew up with. Some went on to college and grad school and are comfortable professionals, some are still blue collar- but none of them use the "n" word and I guarantee they would be uncomfortable and disgusted if anybody used it in their presence.

Maybe things are different in NYC, I dunno. But, with all due respect ace, remember that the same ones who call us racist are the ones who pitch hissy fits about scientist shirts and the names of craft beers and said that "Chicago" and "thug" are some sort of racist code words. They will always, always call us racist (and sexist and rapey and homophobic, etc.etc)

Posted by: Donna &&&&&& V. (brandishing ampersands) at July 09, 2015 07:52 PM (+XMAD)

821 #814

Conservatives should have only one goal in 2016, to deny a Republican the Presidency. Let them get what they deserve.....Hillary Clinton.

We are past time to form a new Party, no matter how small, it is not like we are winning anything now.

But to remain in a Party that hates us, (as indicated by this thread), for our religion, geographic, economic and educational place in life, AND for our skin color, is just too much to ignore.

Posted by: pam at July 09, 2015 07:53 PM (EAZ7y)

822 Posted by: pam at July 09, 2015 07:53 PM (EAZ7y)

Hey, pam, I think Trump is not part of the Republican party, so voting for him is just like voting against the GOP but not to the extant of allowing Hillary the reigns either. Trump is either an indie or an old-fashioned Republican, certainly not the type who is in current leadership. But he was smart not to run as third-party b/c all that does is insure a Dem win.

Posted by: Aslan's Girl at July 09, 2015 07:56 PM (xetep)

823 >>But there's been such a shocking, dramatic lurch of the Dems to the far left in such a short time - not matched by the country, or even many Dem voters (as is evident on many big issues such as amnesty, O-care, etc.).

It's all about intensity, isn't it? Raw numbers are one thing but they don't call the left activists for nothing.

We joke about the SJWs of the left and their idiotic cause of the day but I will give them credit, they never stop. They are the fucking terminator of politics.

The Tea Party was a thing for what, about 1 1/2 election cycles? Feminists and the gay mafia have been fighting for decades, and they still are even after racking up win after win.

I guess I see the shocking, dramatic lurch you mentioned as slowly, slowly then all at once. It seems like overnight but they've been marching through the institutions for decades.

Posted by: JackStraw at July 09, 2015 07:59 PM (OGm46)

824 The problem with this argument is Trump comes from the comfortable class.

Historically revolutions occur because someone, or group, from the comfortable class aligns with the middle/lower class, and leads them in the revolt. It happened in the American Revolution, same with the French and even Communist Revolutions.

The elite faction that can first rally the commoners to his or her cause wins. The comfortable class in the GOP has shown no ability to rally common folks, and the Dems have actually done a better job in the last few presidential elections in that.

The comfortable class in the GOP makes little if any attempt to win votes from the middle class, and now are angry because Trump is trying to steal their wife. Well that is what happens when you don't show any love...she might leave the marriage.

Posted by: William Eaton at July 09, 2015 07:59 PM (q52Ma)

825 #141 Pave Low John Do I know you? What's the tail # of the Pave in the Air Park at Hurlburt?

McGyver, Out

Posted by: McGyver at July 09, 2015 08:02 PM (6hAG+)

826 I've got a better set of categories. The Straight Talkers versus the Mealy Mouths.

Real Straight Talkers have actual convictions and stand up for them. You may not 100% agree with them, but you know where they stand and they don't need focus groups to tell you what is right and wrong. Crude? Vulgar? Maybe. But a damned sight better than the Mealy Mouthers.

Mealy Mouthers are just a bunch of pantywaist lawyer types, usually amoral, who lick their finger and test which way the wind is blowing before issuing their TRUE, UNVARNISHED, EDUCATED SMART AS EINSTEIN OPINION, until of course the wind blows the other way and THEY'VE EVOLVED ON THE ISSUE AND YOU TOOK THEiR FORMER STATEMENT COMPLETELY OUT OF CONTEXT.

Of course you have the Bullshitters, who emulate the Straight Talkers but agree with the Mealy Mouths. Let's face it, Trump and Christie are Bullshitters.

Now, I would like to vote for a Straight Talker, but a Bullshitter will do in a pinch, simply because he or she KNOWS what's good and bad, as opposed to being a glorified weather vane.

So any Republican who wants to vote for some Mealy Mouth, you keep fucking that chicken, buddy, and telling yourself it's Kate Upton. Jeb's your nominee because he's the only one who can lose to Empress Cankles of the Mao-Suit.

Posted by: Bo Schitt at July 09, 2015 08:02 PM (hAKpY)

827 Thanks for the history and philosophy lessons. Didn't know that anyone has been around for 100,000 years of human existence, which is quite some time before written records.
Also, I seem to remember that you told us that you were going to pack it in if your bud Mike Flynn didn't win his primary. Still waiting, Ace.

Posted by: carlito at July 09, 2015 08:07 PM (f/+XK)

828 Are we all back to giving a shit about politics and "building a winning coalition" behind the next McCain or Romney?

Pass. Hard pass.

Posted by: Fred at July 09, 2015 08:12 PM (hJ6fa)

829 "The Tea Party was a thing for what, about 1 1/2 election cycles? Feminists and the gay mafia have been fighting for decades, and they still are even after racking up win after win."

To be fair the Tea Party did have Lois Lerner, the IRS, FBI, OSHA, DOJ, and the ATF persecuting them but the rest of your point is dead on.

Posted by: Misfortune & Pestilence at July 09, 2015 08:16 PM (vkf6y)

830 Trump isn't even on my radar as a candidate....could care less about him.

It is how Republicans, in DC, media, and blogs, are reacting to him.

So typical, and disheartening.

Posted by: pam at July 09, 2015 08:16 PM (EAZ7y)

831 Posted by: carlito at July 09, 2015 08:07 PM (f/+XK)

I've never understood the point of this type of comment. Do you imagine the host or the other commenters give a shit it stay or go?

Posted by: Grump928(C) blurts at July 09, 2015 08:18 PM (rwI+c)

832 >> I have been pigeonholed my entire life purely because of the Southern state I was born in...which is beautiful, full of good people, food and atmosphere which, during the end of segregation, was not as violent as Boston. But these same people from New England look down their nose when they hear where i am from. Yet I would bet some of these private school Yanks have never had a black friend or classmate.

Vouch.

Posted by: Lea at July 09, 2015 08:25 PM (vmMMi)

833 Paul Fussell couldn't have said it better.

(Not in a blog post, anyway.)

Posted by: FireHorse at July 09, 2015 08:27 PM (NP3P5)

834 Posted by: biancaneve at July 09, 2015 07:51 PM (vP4/o)

Romney was a squish on immigration before the primaries, harder line during, and then a squish again in the general. He had no credibility. Plus, he never really pushed the issue nationally.

Posted by: WOPR at July 09, 2015 08:28 PM (nRvEn)

835 "But to remain in a Party that hates us, (as indicated by this thread),
for our religion, geographic, economic and educational place in life,
AND for our skin color, is just too much to ignore."

Exactly. We have more in common with Reagan Democrats than Bush Republicans. 45% of the country is either Catholic or evangelical Protestant. 45% is income-level middle class. That's one helluva coalition to start building from.

Is there really going to be any existential-level difference in post-Hillary America and post-GOP America? Even Cruz won't accomplish much more than comparatively responsible management of a growing welfare state when he has Boehner and McConnell's careerist apparatchiks for foot soldiers.

The time is now - before now, in fact. If the country's going to implode if we don't vote GOP, it's too late for saving anyway. We may be a longshot but it's better to have third party chemotherapy than settling for national hospice care as cancerous government swallows us an inch at a time.

Posted by: SocietyIs2Blame at July 09, 2015 08:30 PM (WIOql)

836 827 Didn't know that anyone has been around for 100,000 years of human existence, which is quite some time before written records.

That's how long anatomically modern humans have been around. Human nature, too, presumably.

Posted by: rickl at July 09, 2015 08:30 PM (sdi6R)

837 Psst, Ace? I've got some troubling news for you. In a few years, even if the GOP were to get all the working class whites AND the professional class whites, it ain't gonna be enough to win a presidential election.

You know why? Because whites will be a minority soon.

You know why? Because of our insane immigration policies.

Trump 2016, or else we'll be a third world one-party state.

Posted by: Justfactualthings at July 09, 2015 08:32 PM (oCxXI)

838 The other problem Romney had is that he snarled on the immigration issue because he thought it was what the voters wanted. The voters want sincerity, not snarling. Trump makes the same mistake. If Trump would just say "absolutely no deal without national everify and a working exit-entry system and no state funding without secure communities" then he would get my support. No need to snarl. Tone is not everything but especially on immigration a soft tone and a firm position is far better than harsh tone and ultimately soft position ala Romney.

Posted by: bjk at July 09, 2015 08:34 PM (x2rNW)

839 Ace, this post is a wonder. No sarcasm, I mean it, this is one of the best things you've written in all the years I've been lurking.

Oh, and anybody who insists that class doesn't exist today -- well, I don't know why anyone would think that, because it obviously does? -- or that it's only another word for money ... needs to sit down and let the adults talk.

I didn't read all 800+ comments so someone may have already mentioned this. If there's any merit to it then I'm sure someone did. But ... wouldn't this (your theory/thesis) almost perfectly explain why Sarah Palin was so popular with a large swath of Republicans, but so unpopular with some ... with a large concentration of those in the professional chatting classes?

Posted by: Bill in TN at July 09, 2015 08:38 PM (3LsBS)

840 Skip, skip, skippity, skip skip.

Do you ever hear the Left agonizing like this? Does one portion of the left give a flying flat f what another portion of the great catch basin of crackpots does? No, you do not hear La Rasa agonizing over Code Pink they're just fine having the ankle gnawed while they take chew on the wrists. They're fine having Greenpeace and all other greens gnawing your balls off while Women's Libers tear out your eyes. Do you hear them talking about limited political resources? Focusing their energy? No, they're all fight all the time and when they respond then switch attacks.

Conservatives are so infuriatingly conservative. They're not up for the fight. Too logical. Resistant to use rhetoric, emotion, hyperbole, don't like their own getting out of line. Don't want any bad thing reflected on them, and left just flat doesn't care.

Posted by: bour3 at July 09, 2015 08:39 PM (5x3+2)

841 As governor of Massachusetts, Romney opposed drivers licenses and benefits for illegals, and supported E-Verify and a border fence. He's been far more consistent on immigration than Perry or Cruz or Rubio or Walker.

Posted by: biancaneve at July 09, 2015 08:40 PM (vP4/o)

842 Maybe why we are so frustrated is that the comfortable class is much smaller than the middle class but has a much louder voice within the Republican Party.

Posted by: donna's new friend at July 09, 2015 08:45 PM (sNVwN)

843 I'm sorry I missed this thread earlier. It was a good post and a good discussion.

As far as race goes, it isn't whites who are obsessed with race nowadays. Most of us have grown past the casual racism exhibited by previous generations.

But the Left will not let it drop. Instead they are doing everything in their power to divide us by race, and demonize whites.

It was largely the white race who created the modern world, from the Magna Carta to the Industrial Revolution, from electricity to automobiles to spaceships.

Do we get any thanks for that? No, the modern educational curriculum obsesses over slavery. But slavery was not invented by white Americans. It has existed in cultures around the world since the first time a strong caveman threatened a weaker one with a club. But only American slavery is emphasized today.

In academia, Critical Race Theory teaches that only whites can be racists, because of some mysterious White Privilege, and furthermore, they are racist whether they mean to be or not. It's apparently inherent to being white.

Why is it that only white people are expected to be ashamed of their history and culture? Every other race and culture is taught to feel pride. But whites are expected to apologize for things that happened centuries before they were born. It was "white guilt" that elected Obama. Even if every black in America voted for him, he couldn't have won without tens of millions of white votes. Many of them were convinced that it was their moral duty to vote for a black man.

Despite 50 years of the Great Society and affirmative action, blacks are taught from the cradle that they are being kept down by Whitey, and their resentment builds.

Now the federal government is taking steps to forcibly introduce poor minorities into middle-class suburbs. This has the potential to turn every suburban community into another Ferguson. The police are being intimidated into inaction by the race-baiters, and whites are told that they are racist if they try to defend themselves from angry black attackers.

Meanwhile, the immigration floodgates are open wide, and the media regularly informs us that whites will be a minority in America by mid-century. That is by no means inevitable. It is being done by design. Why?

Look at what happens in neighborhoods and countries where whites are a minority. It's open season on them. They are constantly victimized by crime and violence. In Zimbabwe and South Africa, those who don't flee are gradually being exterminated.

If whites become a minority in America, where can we flee? Back to Europe? Hardly. The same thing is happening there.

On top of all that, now our very history is coming under attack. It started with removing the Confederate flag, and it will not end until the Founding Fathers, the Declaration of Independence, and the Constitution are erased from history.

It should not be surprising that more and more white people are coming to believe that we are under siege, and that our own government hates us and wants us to die.

Posted by: rickl at July 09, 2015 09:23 PM (sdi6R)

844 Shorter Ace: I hate Trump, and am embarrassed he's popular.

Good grief man its a post not a dissertation.

Posted by: Tantumblogo at July 09, 2015 09:26 PM (cb/hk)

845 "I hate that the Middle Class is so comfortable being what I would term "crude," and in fact seems to take a backwards-ass pride in being crude of expression, especially in regard to things they know are extraordinarily sensitive." Ace, _you_ are crude (and we love you for it.) But you see these big fat bright lines between your crudity and the crudity of the base (e.g., you ban the words "n!ggardly," "w@@kie," and won't allow nude pics on the site.) But you're the guy who called BHO a "c@cksucker," and "Boy King," and have written a jillion other really crude things (and we loved that you did.) I don't understand why you seem to want it both ways, and I sure don't understand the rules you use to draw those bright lines.

Posted by: gp at July 09, 2015 09:55 PM (mk9aG)

846 Amazing article Ace.

I've always seen the dynamic as being between the remnants of American aristocracy and the working man, with the former doing everything to convince the latter that if they just go along with what they say, the latter could become the former.

But, po-tay-to, pa-tah-to

Posted by: TylerMichaels at July 09, 2015 10:16 PM (N6Swg)

847 ha ha I posted here for many years and I still don't where anyone stands . what a bunch of undecideds

Posted by: sonnyspats1 at July 09, 2015 11:31 PM (XYKz+)

848 >>>ce, _you_ are crude (and we love you for it.) But you see these big fat bright lines between your crudity and the crudity of the base (e.g., you ban the words "n!ggardly," "w@@kie," and won't allow nude pics on the site.) But you're the guy who called BHO a "c@cksucker," and "Boy King," and have written a jillion other really crude things (and we loved that you did.) I don't understand why you seem to want it both ways, and I sure don't understand the rules you use to draw those bright lines.

as i keep saying, but many keep not hearing: There is a Red Card issued for racial crudity.

You keep equating racial crudity with crude taunting. They are not the same.

They may be the same in your head, but you are in a distinct minority on that.

Posted by: ace at July 09, 2015 11:35 PM (bhepQ)

849 If you listen to Trump he talks like someone who has not been effected by the PC police, In contrast his interviewers sound like liars inc. He is shining a light on them all.

Posted by: sonnyspats1 at July 09, 2015 11:36 PM (XYKz+)

850 >>> Maybe why we are so frustrated is that the comfortable class is much smaller than the middle class but has a much louder voice within the Republican Party.

the top members of the comfortable class are corporate guys who have a lot of money. They are the Donor Class.

So yeah the money guys run the party.

Posted by: ace at July 09, 2015 11:37 PM (bhepQ)

851 I bet Trump produces zero campaign ads. He is giving Rubio a shot this weekend to debate him in Vegas this weekend. Trump will pick Cruz over Rubio for a running mate. Trump not only is getting free PR but he may be making money on the debate through one of his companies. He is a hoot. Plus he trashes Sour Krautenhiemer... this guy is awesome he tells his interviewers . "you don't even know what your talking about...

Posted by: sonnyspats1 at July 09, 2015 11:42 PM (XYKz+)

852 Ace, I don't know about "in my head," but try that "Boy King" line in polite society, and they'll tell you it's racially crude. I haven't cataloged all the crude things you've written (love ya for it) and all the crude things you've forbidden, so I can't get into a deep analysis, but we both know your bright lines aren't just about racial stuff. I think your main heuristic for allowable crudity is whether _you_ think it is funny or not, which is why nobody else will see the lines exactly the same way you do. Anyway, please keep the crude stuff coming. When you are "on," you are golden!

Posted by: gp at July 10, 2015 12:01 AM (mk9aG)

853 >>>ce, I don't know about "in my head," but try that "Boy King" line in polite society, and they'll tell you it's racially crude

but that's nonsense where people go looking to claim some bullshit objection. not the same as talking about watermelons in Michell's vegetable garden.

Trump's comments would have been fine if he said something like, "Among the illegals are a number of drug runners, human traffickers, rapists, and murderers, who shojld not be here, and whom the Democrats and Republican establishment are protecting for political reasons."

The problem was he decied to speak like a thoughtless blowhard and say, of all immigrants, "They're rapists... and some, I assume, are decent people."

The idea is being careful when speaking about highly sensitive issues -- not just "letting it rip" like a drunken blowhard at the end of a bar.

Posted by: ace at July 10, 2015 12:22 AM (bhepQ)

854 Ace...the trouble with these little twits who don't see the use of humor in politics is both thin-skinned delicate petunia poopypants, "Mama! he kicked sand in my eye! I'm gonna tell on you!" I guess we are now seeing the result of "helicopter parents or Prius parents or meth parents who spawned them, perhaps in a water bath that went bad.

And! AND, my flying monkeys of the Ace Kingdom, it shows a lack of IQ not to laugh at political satire or sarcasm. Yes, my delicate snowflakes, oh ye with the perpetual frown and tsk tsk like a lispy librarian who needs sex with Dewey Decimal...you are dumber than those of us who throw fistfuls of guano at your ideas and your pathos and your effete snobby fake intellect. Because, my rumpledthinmint, if you had a brain in your head, or one or two synapses that fire on humor and "get the joke" vs offense, then the world would live in peace-out, try my Boone's Farm again.

Did you know, my whimpering sad-sack, wheeling in the corner in total umbrage of an imagined offence, that political humor and cartoons existed, oh, before this great country was hatched. Like 18th century English satire.

Recently the great cartoonist, Michael Ramirez was "let go" by the great LA Times (who still hold the tape of our dear leader with Palestinian supporters, but I digress). They let him go because his satire is too close to the truth and it, shockingly, makes people think vs the perfect in office whose own excrement is preserved in amber.

gp...is that some STD code for you?

Don't you tell Ace what to do. I ban you from my kingdom. Leave you monkey wings at the door. (Oh, and you might want to get that large nasty green booger out of your ginormous nostril...that could be part and literally parcel of why your nose is so stuck up that you have no concept of humor vs when you are fixing to go completely barking mad aka Barky mad at the world.

Wail, bless your pea-pickin' heart, your mama left you too long on your back and your head is all flat and pointy, so I guess it can't be amended.Try sucking on a lemon. xoxo

Posted by: ChristyBlinky,aging Redneck Queen supermodel, has a Hobbit foot at July 10, 2015 01:33 AM (5br9Q)

855 At the end of this rant, I am just waiting for Ace to say that he is all in for Bush or Rubio.

Posted by: Scoob at July 10, 2015 08:17 AM (BFk4h)

856 Good insights, if a little over-simplified. But here's the thing: there is absolutely no point in compromising with the Comfortable Class because they'll just do the same thing the Democrats will in any case. Does that mean we lose? Maybe so. But that's just saying we lose either way: we lose if the Democrats win and we lose if the Comfortable Class wins. This is the result of letting leftists capture the academy 50 or 100 years ago. Stick a fork in it; it's done.

Posted by: DSmith at July 10, 2015 08:20 AM (vtrgg)

857 Ace, you write frequently about how the comfortable class establishment GOP is completely screwing conservatives over, even going so far as to say that the rift is so wide that to continue the fight is hopeless and it's time to literally partition the country. Now you're all about, "we have to sign a peace treaty with the establishment" so that we can fight the true enemy.

So which is it? Is the GOPe something to be loathed and ultimately transformed\destroyed or are they now fellow Republicans who we can't live without?

You're description of the GOP is spot-on. You are completely correct IMOH about the party being divided into the comfortable, leftish, PC on the one hand and the conservative, middle class on the other. However, again IMHO rapprochement is impossible.

Again, you're right about the comfortable class hating the middle class far more than the comfortable class hates liberals. In 2010, after the rise of the Tea Party, the GOPe found itself despising the middle class to such an extreme degree that they decided to find themselves a new core group of supporters. They consciously decided to more to the left. Sure, they would take whatever conservative support they could conveniently get, but their policies would be moderate-left. Conservatives are seen as only bit players in their envisioned, new, coalition. You even wrote about how the tactics used in the primaries by the GOPe against the TP were those normally reserved for use against the true enemy, not those used against someone disagreed with on their own side.

You may be urging us (middle-class Republicans) to form an alliance with the comfortable, but the comfortable have chosen to exclude us from their new and improved GOP.

It's not clear where we go from here, but it is clear that we will never make any progress nationally unless we can win back our own party first. One possible solution is a pseudo-thrid party. It's not a party that runs its own candidates in all elections or has it's own convention. It would just be a party that runs candidates against leftist Republicans in the general election. It would give Conservatives true veto power over GOPe candidates going to Washington. Yes, this would benefit Democrats in the short-run. However, as stated earlier, we can not win nationally until we can win back our own party. This would give Conservatives the power to move the party back to the right, particularly in conservative states. We may have to tolerate a Mark Kirk from IL but we certainly don't have to tolerate an Orin Hatch from Utah or a Jeff Flake or John McCain from AZ.

Posted by: MC Slammer at July 10, 2015 08:51 AM (eKIg1)

858 This brings up the point that Ronald Reagan was not a member of the Comfortable Class.
During Reagan's first attempt at running for President in 1976, he was despised by the Comfortable class. He attempted to make peace by offering to have Richard Schweiker (R-PA), a known left of center, as his VP, but this wasn't enough to challenge Gerald Ford, a sitting President.
Reagan then spent the next 4 years working the Party till he was inevitable in 1980.

Posted by: Islamic Rage Boy at July 10, 2015 08:53 AM (e8kgV)

859 I must admit to being a little confused. So who is doing it right? Bem Carson or Trump? Both? Neither?

They both say the truth but i sort of got the impression you felt Carson was doing it right?

They both seem to get the same reaction to me?

Posted by: Dude at July 10, 2015 08:59 AM (1Y5Ca)

860 "Why is homosexuality so frequent in prison?"

The shit disturber would suggest that gays must commit a far more crimes than their numbers would indicate. How else can you explain such stats?

Faced with such a question they will of course get loud and wave their hands rather than follow he logic.

Posted by: rjschwarz at July 10, 2015 09:04 AM (Wk2d5)

861 This is actually quite an important essay, which the "Comfortable Class" needs to read and consider at least as much as the "Middle Class".

I rather dislike Ace's terminology of "Middle Class" and "Comfortable Class", because what he calls the Middle Class would better be described as working class and lower middle class, and the majority of what he calls the comfortable class are in fact middle class, although it probably includes the bulk of the upper middle class. (The distinction has to do with a number of factors, but perhaps the most important are education (the prestige of college or graduate school attended) and the ability of the upper middle class to accumulated capital, though the bulk of its income is earned. By way of contrast, the upper class is distinguished by the fact that it lives primarily on income generated by capital rather than by their own work.)

I sympathize with Ace, however, at his discomfort with both groups. By background, profession (Wall Street lawyer), education, sports, culture and the arts, I am will within the "Comfortable Class", but as an older classical liberal, and sometime historian, I have no use for politically correct expression or the arrant nonsense which has infected academica and, as a result of at least three, if not five, generations of leftist indoctrination in the elite schools, has come to blight the American upper and upper middle classes.

Posted by: catorenasci at July 10, 2015 09:42 AM (3ajw7)

862

Let me give you an example: the mighty squeal we heard from the Comfortable Class when Ben Carson said, accurately,
that you can't say that sexuality is perfectly immutable and inborn,
because straight men and women engage in opportunistic homosexuality in
prison.

Is anyone actually claiming this is wrong?
This is not a good representation of what Mr. Dr. Ben Carson said. He wasn't talking about "opportunistic homosexuality." Here is Mr. Dr. Ben Carson's argument:

Because a lot of people who go into prison go into prison straight -
and when they come out, they're gay. So, did something happen while they
were in there? Ask yourself that question...
He's saying prison turns people gay even after they get released.
I am a very Middle Class pikachu (I wear a Ballcap on a Train going to Work every day) and this seems like just a stupid thing to say, what Mr. Dr. Ben Carson said.
But I'm not mad about it. Just disappointed.

Posted by: happyfeet at July 10, 2015 10:29 AM (4uNaS)

863 oh my goodness i used formatting I promise

I do not understand how to make the comments here

Posted by: happyfeet at July 10, 2015 10:32 AM (4uNaS)

864 MC Slammer: it's just wash, rinse, repeat. Rail against the establishment to gain Cred with the followers, then do the establishment's bidding once you have some political capital to expend. Wash, rinse, repeat. It's SOP for GOPe and it's blogging arm. Over with Allah, the cycle is just much quicker, sometimes doing both at once. Some of them only pepper their establishment rhetoric with anti-GOPe stuff, just depends on the readership.

Posted by: doug at July 10, 2015 11:09 AM (IYEs/)

865 Well and good, but it doesn't explain why the democrats don't have the same problem or, if the democrats ever did have the same problem how they overcame it. They can monolithically be "on the same page," but republicans can't?

Posted by: Random Thought Generator at July 10, 2015 11:18 AM (wLLbf)

866 We working class schlubs compromise all the time.

Didn't you get your Mitt Romney in 2012? Didn't you get your John Mccain in 2008?

Now it's your turn to compromise. Now it's your turn to vote for our guy.

Posted by: Eric at July 10, 2015 11:35 AM (PWWdd)

867 Ace of Spades is absolutley correct about the split between the
middle class and the professional class. His solution of everyone just
accepting that they don't own the culture and getting along, however is
dead wrong.

What the middle class conservatives need to understand is that they
are the counter culture. They don't own the dominant culture. The thing
about a dominant culture is that it is powerful and it is comfortable.
It is always easier to go along than fight it. It is, also necessarily
conformist. That is what keeps it dominant. So trying to get along
inside it or change it from the inside is a fool's errand. That is just
surrender.

It is striking how similar things are today to what they were in the
late 1950s or early 1960s only with the conservative middle class
playing the role of the counter culture. People remember that time for
rock and roll and the beatniks and hippies, but that wasn't the culture.
It was the counter culture. Hubert Humphrey or Earl Warren no more
wanted to be associated with a bunch of beatniks dropping LSD than Mitch
McConnell or John Roberts wants to be associated with some redneck from
Alabama. Elvis wasn't winning any Grammys. The New York Times wasn't
hiring Ken Keesey or Hunter S. Thompson or even letting them in the
door. Jack Keroac didn't win any Pulitzers.

The strength of a dominant culture is also its weakness. It is
powerful but it is only powerful because it is conformist. You beat it
by forming a counter culture. Its only real power is ostracizing you. If
you check out, it no longer has any power over you because you
ostracized yourself. This is what the hippies did and they won. The
people at the New York Time ranting about the shocking vulgar
conservative middle class sound just like the people at the Times
talking about the hippies back in the day. And the hippies won not by
trying to ingratiate themselves but by being vulgar and unapologetic.
You don't like it that ten people are bathing naked in the pond at the
town park? Well fuck you have a half a million people doing it at
Woodstock. You want to draft us? We will all burn our draft cards and
what are you going to do about it?

This is what the middle class conservatives need to do. They need to
embrace being outside of the dominant culture and create their own. They
need an ethos. And needs to be an ethos that embraces nonconformity and
fun. Stop caring what these idiots think. Make them look like the
dreary conformists they are. Show our current mass culture and art to be
the spent force it is.
What ace doesn't get in his condemnation of the middle class for being "crass buffoons" is that if you are going to fight the mainstream culture, you have to be willing
to be a a crass buffoon, at least by their standards. The way the mainstream culture wins is by
defining everything that stands against it as "being crass". You
think that if you are polite enough you will get somewhere. It doesn't
work that way. You are going to be called and considered crass for
the single reason you are not conforming. So you are going to be a
"crass buffoon" no matter what.

To give an example. Just two months ago, there was nothing about
having a Confederate Flag on your car that would be considered being crass or offensive. Today, doing such would be exactly the kind of thing that Ace
would consider an example of the middle class being crass buffoons.

Ten years ago pointing out that Mexico and Latin America have a giant
crime problem and opening the border to them would let in a lot of
criminals was just pointing out a reasonable fact and engaging debate.
Today doing that gets you called a racist and has the entire
professional class calling your comments "racist and incendiary". The
very things that he kills Trump for were totally acceptable to say just a
few years ago.

If Ace of Spades is not willing to be crass and called a buffoon by polite society, then he needs to just give up and give them
what they want because nothing short of that will keep you from being
called one.

Posted by: John at July 10, 2015 11:41 AM (mwctc)

868 ". . ., by engaging in, or supporting, a style of carelessly offensive cant.

"But I hate that the Comfortable Class is So. Fucking. Cowardly."

Thank you for this example of the comedic power of irony.

(I agree with the sentiment.)

Posted by: Chas C-Q at July 10, 2015 11:45 AM (Y0Piu)

869 Chas C-Q,

He wants the professional class to stop hating the "yahoos" and instead influence them but he never really says how. He admits the Yahoos are right and are saying truthful things. He just doesn't like how they are saying them. They are being too "direct and crass". Okay. Isn't telling the truth "less directly" just another way to say you are lying?

I honestly don't see what exactly he wants from the middle class other than for them to stop standing up for themselves and to be more acceptable to the left. That sounds reasonable until you realize nothing short of absolute conformity is ever going to make them acceptable to the left.

Posted by: John at July 10, 2015 11:55 AM (mwctc)

870 "... because it is simply part of their religious dogma that homosexuality is 100% genetic ..."

Since, at least, the 1980's this statement has been agreed and disagreed with by members of the homosexual community. It depends which way will work to their advantage with a given situation.

Posted by: Islamic Rage Boy at July 10, 2015 12:06 PM (e8kgV)

871 "Well and good, but it doesn't explain why the democrats don't have the same problem or, if the democrats ever did have the same problem how they overcame it. They can monolithically be "on the same page," but republicans can't?"

They can be on the same page because as a group the momentum for the past 100 years has been in the left's direction. Anyone on that train got at least some small measure of what they wanted. Some got miles, some got feet, some got inches.

We get nothing. Maybe occasionally stopping the left's freight train by millimeters if even that.

They've not been in our position. Say money is being handed out to the group on the left. Some get $1000, some get $100, some get $10, and some get $1. They all got something. The extreme fringe got $1 and are the rabble rousers to head even farther left.

On the right, it is the reverse money is taken from us and it just gets worse and more worse.

Posted by: Misfortune & Pestilence at July 10, 2015 12:25 PM (gT558)

872 I would call them Country Club Republicans rather than the comfortable class.

Because they are, more often than not, insufferable snobs.

Posted by: Beth at July 10, 2015 12:49 PM (9Z0HI)

873 A lot of the problem here is that the middle class has completely lost trust in the professional class and its politicians. To win at the national level, a politician has to lie and appear to be more centrist than he actually is while at the same time holding onto and motivating his base who expect him to be anything but centrist.

To pull that off, the base has to trust him and understand that he is lying to win and will take care of them when he does. The Democrats' base largely does that. It didn't bother them Obama said he was anti-gay marriage because they knew he was lying and would change his position once in office.

The GOP's sorry record of appeasement and selling out once in office has robbed them of that trust. I get it that Ace doesn't like Trump being so blunt and getting so much cheering from the base. In an ideal world, Trump and the rest of the GOP candidates would be talking in reasonable sounding platitudes safe in the knowledge that the base knows what they really think and trusts them to do what is necessary once in office no matter how much they lie to the boobs to get elected. The GOP and the professional class weasels have blown that trust. So whenever a candidate starts talking centrist and looks like a sellout, the base rightly sees them for the sellout they likely are and will only trust someone like Trump or Cruz who makes no attempt to appear centrist.

Given that I see no reason for the middle class conservatives to trust the professional class not to sell them out this time, like they have every other time, I am not sure how you fix this other than for the Professional class to do a lot of soul searching and making an enormous effort to restore the trust of the middle class.

Posted by: John at July 10, 2015 12:55 PM (mwctc)

874 In addition to the political and cultural classes mentioned there is another distinction: those who build and maintain our incredibly complex infrastructure and those who just use it. If trucks and trains stop delivery to NYC for a week or better you better believe it will get decidedly uncomfortable

Posted by: blena at July 10, 2015 01:19 PM (b1bMr)

875 "The two classes had equivalent education and made equal money."

The first part is objevtively wrong, the british schoolsystem segregaet in the old days ver fast, with the privateschool elite being very large among even the clerical classes and the public schools in workingareas being prefunctory. DH Lawrence made a scene with Lady Chatterleys on just that issue, a selfeducated man from the workingclass screwing a woman from the upper. Unheard of!

Posted by: fnord73 at July 10, 2015 02:23 PM (UApyh)

876 The thing Ayn Rand said about "compromise with evil" comes to mind.

The Democrats are DETERMINED to sell us out. It's all they've been doing, night-and-day, 24/7, for 6-1/2 years now.

The GOP-e is busy trying to compromise with them; they seem to figure we'll vote for them if they "do what the Dems do, but slower".

And so "we who love what our country USED to stand for" are supposed to compromise with the compromisers, so they can win more elections, and can compromise even more?

Please. No.

Posted by: Doo-Dah,Doo-Dah at July 10, 2015 02:31 PM (egz8E)

877 "To pull that off, the base has to trust him and understand that he is lying to win and will take care of them when he does. The Democrats' base largely does that. It didn't bother them Obama said he was anti-gay marriage because they knew he was lying and would change his position once in office."

See, I was good with this. I understood what they were doing (lying) but then they never did even the tiniest, smallest thing to move things in our direction.

Ex. If Cruz was true, he should have known that he was not eligible and threw some bombs instead. He didn't because the siren song of power superseded what his true roll should have been. Destroying the home (our constitution) for small thing is worthless, and narcissistic. He doesn't understand his proper roll...assuming he was true...which I'm not convinced of.

Again, assuming he really is true, his actions don't match his words. He's a weaselly one but he didn't pull it off.

Posted by: Misfortune & Pestilence at July 10, 2015 05:27 PM (BJJPe)

878 And if Cruz was true to the constitution....he could have been a hero...now he's suspect zero.

Posted by: Misfortune & Pestilence at July 10, 2015 05:33 PM (BJJPe)

879 Comfortable Class talks like a fag and their shits all retarded.

No we don't. You do.

There's that fag talk I was talking about.

Posted by: The Exile at July 10, 2015 05:49 PM (iAFLE)

880 Ace, why do you want to win?
The answer is the crux.

Posted by: Mike Mahoney at July 10, 2015 05:52 PM (2228W)

881 "And they are in fact much, much closer to the Establishment Left than they are the mores and customs of the Middle Class they are nominally allied with."

If the Comfortable Class are closer to the Left than to the actual Conservatives in the Middle class, how can they be considered Conservative? Why do you call them Conservatives when, clearly, they are not?

Just because one calls himself a Conservative doesn't make it so. See: Jeb!

If I call myself a Progressive even though I am far right, does that make me a Progressive?

Posted by: The Exile at July 10, 2015 05:58 PM (iAFLE)

882 Want to know which class you belong to?

Do you drink a micro brew or a bud/miller lite?

Is your car foreign or domestics?

Posted by: Lthairdog at July 10, 2015 06:22 PM (7uixf)

883 "Role"

...jeebus....I wasn't even drinking...so no excuse...LOL

Posted by: Misfortune & Pestilence at July 10, 2015 10:30 PM (BJJPe)

884 Nothing's perfect. If 97.4% of Americans in the general population are heterosexual; they are the norm. There will always be some people outside the norm, like how 3% of Americans are stutterers.

There has been at least one study, now suppressed in the Media, that sheep were prevented from becoming homosexual. When a pregnant Ewe was injected with a $25 hormone lozenge under the skin, none of her male offspring exhibited homosexual behavior later.

The idea here is that homosexuality is a birth defect caused by a deficiency of hormones during gestation. The brains of man and women, in MRI scans, are shown to be organized differently and homosexuals are somewhere in between the two.

Not all of the people having this brain pattern engage in homosexual acts, though. Naturally, there have been no human studies. Women have yet to demand this hormone service from doctors. The homosexual activists fear that if this is true, it would destroy their political clout. Homosexuality would be little different from anyone with a predisposition for a particular sin. Whether the cause is genetic or a birth defect would not matter if giving into this sin will lead to a short nasty life. We all know people who should not drink alcohol, gamble or be placed in positions of authority. Their proclivities go to their head.

Why is there an increase of homosexuality in prison's. DUH, the men have less access to women. And bad sex is better than no sex to some men. The question is if the men who engaged in homosexual behavior in prison remain homosexuals when they get out? My guess is that most don't.

Posted by: Louis Wheeler at July 11, 2015 12:37 AM (ocSDM)

885 I completely agree. I was born working class. I am now Comfortable Class byu income and assets (the Jaguar XF I bought to replace my Corvette tells you what you need to know). My sensibilities remain Working Class. We need an opposition political party for the Democrats. The PC sensibilities of the CC group have neutered the Republican Party. Trump is not a serious candidate, but he is saying stuff that resonates even with many Democratic voters.

For those who refuse to face reality about homosexuality, read thishttp://www.claytoncramer.com/csa.pdf.

Posted by: Clayton Cramer at July 11, 2015 11:51 AM (Z+Io9)

886 Here is something I wrote to Kevin Williamson and I think it applies somewhat here too:

"Another thing, I am tired of these condescending think pieces by so-called "conservative" journalists where they lecture us mere plebs on how to think and act. Here is a hint: We think what we do because of the spinelessness we see from people like you who are supposed to be speaking for us. You are supposed to be guided by the way we think, not the other way around. You are not our den mother who lectures us when we step out of bounds. We know what reality is, we live with it and deal with the consequences of politicians who don't listen to us every day so don't act like we are uneducated rubes who do not know who Trump is and who you are. We need someone to speak for us and right now Trump whether or not he is actually conservative is the only one doing it. "

Posted by: Ben Bollman at July 12, 2015 08:58 PM (GwnWk)

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