The Pope's Encyclical on AGW; A Different Perspective [Sean Bannion]

When it comes to religion (or history or philosophy or, hell science) people tend to look for evidence to support their pre-existing beliefs in that field. So Pope Francis' Enciclica Laudato Si (aka the ~~weather~~ climate change encyclical) will do the same. If you believe Pope Francis is a card-carrying Commie down with the whole Liberation Theology bit, then you're likely to find that here.

If you believe Pope Frank is a reactionary troglodyte who's only throwing the left an occasional bone to lure them into complacency as he plots to subjugate women, re-install Latin as the lingua franca , and name himself as Holy Roman Emperor as the last pope , well, you'll probably find support for your position here too.

You'll both be wrong. So you have that goin' for ya. Which is nice.

Best line of commentary I’ve read so far:

I think J.R.R. Tolkien would have loved this encyclical. There are no Ents in it, but it does sort of evoke The Shire.
— Chad Pecknold (@ccpecknold) June 18, 2015

Shorter encyclical: Pope Francis is dead wrong on the science and still perfectly in line with Catholic doctrine – and that’s ok, because theology isn’t science. Specifically, Francis is well in line with St. John Paul II and Benedict XVI in his theology – both viewed as conservative popes. If you’re only interested in arguing about policy and pointing out why Catholics are Communists, just read chapters 1 and 5. If you’re actually interested in trying to understand where Pope Francis is coming from, or if you want to know more about Catholic teaching, then read the whole thing. There’s a lot of nuance (and theology) packed into this document, and you’re not going to “get it” by reading it only once. (and at 192 pages you’re going to be reading it for a good long while….)

Some people are having rancisull-fledged spittle-flecked nutties today. I suspect that some of them are people who are happy only when they are unhappy.” So, for the Catholic-bashing lofo types, you may now consider yourself well-informed and carry on with the rest of your day. For those people of goodwill who can hold more than one contradictory thought in their head at the same time, continue on…

Pope Francis has taught me so much, including the confidence to say publicly when I disagree with him on issues other than faith and moral
— Fr. Jonathan Morris (@fatherjonathan) June 21, 2015

OK, OK Bannion, enough of that BS. Gimme the bottom line.

Nope. First...the obligatory disclaimer: I am not a theologian. I probably understand Catholic theology a bit better than the next guy, but there are plenty here at AoSHQ who are very (very) good in this area and by that I mean theology in general and not simply Catholic theology (shout out to Christopher Taylor and our own AllenG, who really ought to have a blog or something).

So take this post for what it's worth and get other opinions and analysis on your own. In fact, consider this post nothing more than a guide to decent things to read on the topic. Google is your friend here.

Here are some folks I trust: C.C. Pecknold, Robert Royal, George Weigel, Fr. George Rutler, The Catholic Thing (full disclosure, most of the guys who write here were my professors in my theology program), and the National Catholic Register.

Folks I don't trust: America magazine,National Catholic Reporter, Crux (owned by the Boston Globe and that should tell you all you need to know).

Here are some folks I trust 95% of the time: Fr. John Zuhlsdorf, Ethika Politika, and Touchstone.

I am generally a conservative Catholic but I'm not what's known in the trade as a RadTrad (Radical Traditionalist). When it comes to the environment, I'm a Teddy Roosevelt kind of environmentalist, not a Greenpeace kind of environmentalist. Someone wrote about that once. So you need to read this post with that in mind.

Hot take: No, this document does not carry the weight of infallibility and, no, Catholics are not bound to obey this document. This is an encyclical, and therefore not the highest source of Church teaching. This represents Francis' views more than it represents the views of the institutional Catholic Church.

In fact....

"It is noteworthy that Pope Francis would have included in an encyclical, instead of lesser teaching forms such as an apostolic constitution or motu proprio, subjects that still pertain to unsettled science (and to speak of a “consensus” allows that there is not yet a defined absolute). The Second Vatican Council, as does Pope Francis, makes clear that there is no claim to infallibility in such teaching."

Hotter take: Boy is the left going to be pissed when they figure out the Pope is Catholic. But they'll ignore it, like they always have:

Yes, despite the unfortunate fact that many Catholics venerate Saint Francis and are inspired by his teachings on conformity to Jesus, papal authority, sin, fasting, and abstinence, that hasn't totally damaged the image of the saint for non-Christians. His traditional Catholic spirituality can be easily ignored because there is a fun side to him! The alternative-lifestyle Francis, the New Age Francis, the ashram Francis, the eco-warrior Francis: in fact there is whatever Francis you want.

This is really the basic point about this faith -- you can't pick and choose what bits of it you like to believe. Catholicism is a faith that generally takes the middle path. This is why the sophomoric "What would Jesus do?" rejoinder to any political argument is laughable. Jesus wasn't a politician. Jesus would forgive sin...then he would tell you to go forth and sin no more. See? The touchy-feely Jesus co-exists with the judgmental Jesus. It's not like Highlander. People are quite fond of confirmation bias when it comes to Jesus Christ.

That selective hearing will be especially obvious on the political left as they try to bend, fold, twist, spindle and mutilate the Catholic Church into something much more agreeable to them -- like Unitarian Universalist -- a faith so watered down as to not even qualify as a faith. Watch for this dynamic as this conversation unfolds. Lefties will want to talk about how much of a liberal Pope Francis is, as they ignore all that icky teaching about sin and stuff.

So while I'm saying that Pope Francis is wrong on the science -- and he's quite, quite wrong -- he's not wrong on the wider theological points he's trying to make nor is he wrong to comment on what's going on in the world. "A reflective Catholic is always a Catholic rather than something else." Catholics, actual Catholics, not Cafeteria Catholics or Christians who culturally identify as "Catholic", do not fall into either/or thinking on any given point and that includes this encyclical. Faith is usually not a binary proposition. It's quite possible to be a good Catholic (or Christian) and think that Francis has some good points on care for the environment, while pointing out that his science is as dead wrong as the science in the Wells Report.

While all the attention this encyclical gets will be focused politics and the environment, Laudato Si really addresses the relationship of humans to nature, to each other and to God. It discusses the connection between sin and the ruin of the environment, it condemns the overconsumption of natural resources (I said "overconsumption," not consumption"), and -- and here's the really Catholic part of it -- shows a similar disregard for those who would ruin God's creation through abortion and population control.

When you take a step back from the bad science and the left's "OMG the Pope is just like meeeeee eleventy!11!!1!!" response to it, Laudato Si is ultimately about respect for all of God's creation -- and not just the parts the left cares about. It is ultimately about the unique dignity of the human person and the relationship of the human person to God.

(And what, pray tell do you mackerel snappers mean by "person?" Here, read this and call me when you're done.)

Shorter (completely untheological) Bannion: if we trash the environment, we're ultimately trashing ourselves and in turn -- God. You don't really have to look too far to find evidence that caring about the environment is caring about ourselves.

WARNING, PHILOSOPHY AHEAD...

French philosopher Etienne Gilson called this relationship of God to man "the Great Syllogism."

1) Being is innermost in each thing
2) God is very being, by His own essence
3) Therefore God is in all things, and innermostly.

Another way of looking at this is that the world is as a hierarchy of being, and God contains all being in Himself. Here's a relatively short (yet still philosophical) presentation of the point.

None of this is new. It is Thomistic philosophy and it is St. Thomas Aquinas who has been driving the doctrine of the Catholic Church since he died in 1274. The point here is that the Pope is not creating some new twist on Catholic doctrine with this document. He's merely explaining Church teaching about care for God's creation in a new way.

Lefties will (of course) ignore it, but the Pope emphasizes at several points that abortion, "coercive means of population control, experimentation on embryos, and other offenses against the sanctity of life are part of the very same callous stance towards the natural world that the environmentalists deplore." Planned Parenthood hardest hit.

In fact, here are all the things in the encyclical the lefties will ignore, neatly summarized for you.

Would it have been nice if he avoided the bad science? Yes, if for no other reason than it draws attention away from his basic point. Would it have been nice if the policy prescriptions to address man's impact on the environment weren't likely to create more poor? Uh, yeah. Duh. Francis needed to be more media savvy. He wasn't, he's not, and he hasn't been since he's been the Pope. Now he has opened the door to criticism of the Church that will have absolutely nothing to do with the faith. That's ultimately my own personal issue with the document.

If you're interested in a follow-up post after I've read this thing 2-3 more times…email CBD.

So I'll close with one final counterargument to all of your lefty friends who will claim the mantle of papal authority on ~~climate~~ weather and the environment…

When the catholic Left insist that you accept everything in this new encyclical because "the Pope said so", remind them to accept every word of Ordinatio sacerdotalis, St. John Paul's definitive document that affirms the infallible teaching that the Church has no authority to ordain women to the priesthood. Not only did "the Pope say so", but he was merely repeating what the Church has always taught!

[Editor's note: All errors are mine....the conversion from MS Word to the blog was....interesting. [CBD])

Posted by: Open Blogger at 07:38 PM

Comments

(Jump to bottom of comments)

1 Looks like no one's touching this one with a 10-foot staff. Give 'em time.

Posted by: RushBabe at June 21, 2015 07:43 PM (zdw2Z)

2 I'm not a Catholic.
But I can tell that you put a great deal of thought into this.

Thank you

Posted by: Village Idiot's Apprentice at June 21, 2015 07:45 PM (VPLuQ)

3 Hey, the pope just authorized an Exoticism for the entire country of Mexico. why not exorcise the climate?

Posted by: Nip Sip at June 21, 2015 07:48 PM (0FSuD)

4 The Catholic Church has always gotten science correct, trust me on this.

Posted by: Zombie Galieo at June 21, 2015 07:48 PM (0FSuD)

5 Never thought I'd be reading quotes from Fr. Z and seeing links to his blog here. Very interesting article. Thanks.

Now I'm off to link to it on FB and twitter. Which should be easier on this site. Hint, hint.

Posted by: John Pomeroy at June 21, 2015 07:50 PM (gTa30)

6 This makes me a lot more interested in how it came to pass that the last Pope had to step down.

Posted by: artemis at June 21, 2015 07:50 PM (AwPyG)

7 Anyone who thinks they know what the iconoclast Professor Tolkien would think is almost certainly wrong.

Posted by: Spiny Norman at June 21, 2015 07:51 PM (T+2Uk)

8 So can we burn coal or not?

Posted by: Bertram Cabot Jr. at June 21, 2015 07:51 PM (W5DcG)

9 I don't take opposition to global warming seriously from anyone who has never experienced winter.

Posted by: AmishDude at June 21, 2015 07:52 PM (b65cm)

10 Galileo vinyards offer an inexhaustible supply of whine resplendent in its tannin

Posted by: derit at June 21, 2015 07:53 PM (jT+gh)

11
Shorter encyclical: Pope Francis is dead wrong on the science and still perfectly in line with Catholic doctrine

And what of Christian doctrine?

Posted by: Soothsayer of the Righteous And Harmonious Fists at June 21, 2015 07:54 PM (H8A7T)

12 From the same people that brought you....
The Science of Flat Earth Centric Solar Model! ...and
Burning Witches

Posted by: Mr Wizard at June 21, 2015 07:54 PM (hCdMd)

13 Bring back Benedict XVI

Posted by: The Political Hat at June 21, 2015 07:56 PM (7YlUk)

14 g'early evenin', 'rons

Posted by: AltonJackson at June 21, 2015 07:56 PM (KCxzN)

15 So can we burn coal or not?

Posted by: Bertram Cabot Jr. at June 21, 2015 07:51 PM.
.

Certain not, heathen. You'll shiver in the cold like the rest of the peasants.

Posted by: Spiny Norman at June 21, 2015 07:57 PM (T+2Uk)

16 So, it's offical: CAGW is the new religion, and the Pope leads it.

Posted by: puukko at June 21, 2015 07:58 PM (5eOU5)

17 Boy is the left going to be pissed when they figure out the Pope is Catholic.

Right. You let me know when that happens. The left can sniff out an uncomplimentary joke about fruit cordial made during the Johnson administration, but when it comes to this particular pope, they're too stupid to realize that he's really their enemy. Maybe he's pulling a rope-a-dope! You know, like George Bush was supposed to be, year after year, as he lost ground to the left?

Posted by: Dr. Mabuse at June 21, 2015 08:00 PM (VBbCO)

18 What dervishes do turn about in dismissing founding sins of America while dancing on pins medieval

Posted by: derit at June 21, 2015 08:00 PM (jT+gh)

19 well Galileo was a bit of a jackalope, however, this seems to lean more to venerating nature over god,

Posted by: almirante marcus at June 21, 2015 08:00 PM (0u/CC)

20 When the Vatican bank has a zero balance Francis can get back to me.

Posted by: Ben Had at June 21, 2015 08:00 PM (kW+kE)

21 Interesting perspective.

Posted by: CrotchetyOldJarhead at June 21, 2015 08:01 PM (rPjB9)

22
Excellent, well thought out, knowledgeable, reasoned piece.

(a couple of places look like there were intended links the way it was written, but there is plenty there to consider).

Posted by: Guy Mohawk at June 21, 2015 08:01 PM (ODxAs)

23 So, it's offical: CAGW is the new religion,

That's one Bill Maher can enthusiastically support.

Posted by: Bertram Cabot Jr. at June 21, 2015 08:02 PM (W5DcG)

24 Those marble floors at the Vatican are awfully slippery...just sayin'

Posted by: Bruce With a Wang! at June 21, 2015 08:03 PM (iQIUe)

25 >>>>in fact there is whatever Francis you want

That Web-Slinging Francis?

Posted by: Bigby's Knuckle Sandwich at June 21, 2015 08:07 PM (H5ETH)

26 Bannion,

Very interesting, but you are going to have to expand on the (possibly conflicting) ideas of the problem of over-consumption and condemnation of birth control.

Is it individual over-consumption, or total over-consumption? Because to avoid the second shouldn't society control population?

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at June 21, 2015 08:08 PM (Zu3d9)

27 And what of Christian doctrine?

Posted by: Soothsayer of the Righteous And Harmonious Fists at June 21, 2015 07:54 PM (H8A7T)

See "Nicene Creed." Written 1200 years before there were protestants.

Posted by: bergerbilder at June 21, 2015 08:08 PM (+jijM)

28 now someone explain this to me (in case no one already mentioned it): Karl Rove on Fox news this morning:

Now maybe there's some magic law that will keep us from having more of these. I mean basically the only way to guarantee that we will dramatically reduce acts of violence involving guns is to basically remove guns from society, and until somebody gets enough "oomph" to repeal the Second Amendment, that's not going to happen.

Daily Caller: http://tinyurl.com/q2wme6o

Posted by: mallfly at June 21, 2015 08:09 PM (qSIlh)

29
"Praise be to you, my Lord, through our Sister, Mother Earth, who sustains and governs us, and who produces various fruit with coloured flowers and herbs".

This sister now cries out to us because of the harm we have inflicted on her by our irresponsible use and abuse of the goods with which God has endowed her. We have come to see ourselves as her lords and masters, entitled to plunder her at will. The violence present in our hearts, wounded by sin, is also reflected in the symptoms of sickness evident in the soil, in the water, in the air and in all forms of life.

Pope Bruce Dern in Silent Running I

https://youtu.be/kAwV7qdWAA8?t=50s

Posted by: Laurie David's Cervix at June 21, 2015 08:09 PM (kdS6q)

30 This is what you get when you elect an Argentinian Jesuit as pope.

I'd call him a typical marxist goofball but he inhabits one of the most influential stations in the world.

It does seem that the leftists have infested every nook and cranny in the world.

Posted by: Kreplach at June 21, 2015 08:09 PM (WVvzl)

31 Resources do not get consumed, they get transformed.

Posted by: eman at June 21, 2015 08:11 PM (MQEz6)

32 And what of Christian doctrine?

Posted by: Soothsayer of the Righteous And Harmonious Fists at June 21, 2015 07:54 PM (H8A7T)

See "Nicene Creed." Written 1200 years before there were protestants.

Posted by: bergerbilder at June 21, 2015 08:08 PM (+jijM)

Bite me.

Posted by: The Arians at June 21, 2015 08:13 PM (7YlUk)

33 Bannion,

Very interesting, but you are going to have to expand on the (possibly conflicting) ideas of the problem of over-consumption and condemnation of birth control.

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at June 21, 2015 08:08 PM (Zu3d9)

Well, actually, I'm not going to have to do shit. Because I'm not the Pope.

Now go back and fix the rest of the linkage I sent you.

Then you can go read Ross Douthat because he covered this in the NYT today.

http://tinyurl.com/nj5atlj

Posted by: Sean Bannion at June 21, 2015 08:13 PM (V+kmg)

34 The Pope thought this was something he should say.

The Pope has prove he isn't a Catholic Communist; others don't have to prove he is one.

Posted by: eman at June 21, 2015 08:13 PM (MQEz6)

35 Bite me.
Posted by: The Arians at June 21, 2015 08:13 PM (7YlUk)

Don't forget how Arius died.

Just sayin.

Posted by: Sean Bannion at June 21, 2015 08:14 PM (V+kmg)

36 Resources do not get consumed,theyget transformed.

You're telling me!

Posted by: Soylent Green is Purple! at June 21, 2015 08:14 PM (BO/km)

37 Bring back Benedict XVI
Posted by: The Political Hat at June 21, 2015 07:56 PM (7YlUk)

THIS

Posted by: Sean Bannion at June 21, 2015 08:15 PM (V+kmg)

38 Martin "Who'll Tax the Rain" O'Malley has called for an assault weapon ban in response to the Charleston shooting because . . ., aw, hell, I don't t know.

Posted by: The Great White Snark at June 21, 2015 08:15 PM (WkAbe)

39 OK I just finished reading it. I am not impressed. There is no way man in his puny, inconsequential form can 'destroy' nature. Sure, we can ruin our habitat and make it unliveable for ourselves, but destroy it. Nope. Not gonna happen. I get what he's saying about the 'throw away' culture and the cheapening of life. But I'm sorry, if he thinks man can destroy what God created, he needs to reconsider his relationship with God.

Posted by: CrotchetyOldJarhead at June 21, 2015 08:15 PM (rPjB9)

40 Bannion,
I'm sorry. no. Father Rutler, and you say you trust him, has a greatly different take on this encyclical than what you're claiming here.
I don't have time to take this argument on right now, and bummer because I've been waiting for Ace or a cob logger to take on this encyclical.

Posted by: LadyS at June 21, 2015 08:15 PM (xYNhJ)

41 Wait a minute. Pope Francis? Wasn't he in the movies?

http://tinyurl.com/m47sfqx

Posted by: Nip Sip at June 21, 2015 08:16 PM (0FSuD)

42 See "Nicene Creed." Written 1200 years before there were protestants.

-
They didn't have climate then.

Posted by: The Great White Snark at June 21, 2015 08:17 PM (WkAbe)

43 rove, does remove all doubt, at nearly every outing,

Posted by: almirante marcus at June 21, 2015 08:17 PM (0u/CC)

44 Thanks to CBD (who has now fixed all the dropped links)

I've popped by AoSHQ cherry!

Seriously folks....I'm not trying to convert anyone here. Just offering another perspective. If Francis had left all the bad science out, I'd probably be more OK with this document than I am.

Posted by: Sean Bannion at June 21, 2015 08:18 PM (V+kmg)

45 Posted by: Sean Bannion at June 21, 2015 08:13 PM (V+kmg)

Wow....writers are never happy with their (unpaid) editors.

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at June 21, 2015 08:18 PM (Zu3d9)

46 Sorry... but when a Religion contradicts the very world God made???

I'd say that religion has some problems.

That the Pope is wrong on the science, but then uses that incorrect science for a Religious Tract???

How does that work.... If God himself made the world, and the rules by which the world operates.

Posted by: Bb Wolf at June 21, 2015 08:19 PM (qh617)

47 You know, I'm getting tired of having to read long pieces that explain why the Pope isn't really a fucking Commie moonbat.

Maybe he could do himself a favor by, oh, I don't know, explicitly praising free market capitalism once in a while. It is the only moral economic system in all of human history, after all.

Posted by: rickl at June 21, 2015 08:19 PM (sdi6R)

48
Then you can go read Ross Douthat because he covered this in the NYT today.
Posted by: Sean Bannion

Thanks, but one can live a very rich fulfilling life without paying any attention to the scribblings of a New York Times "conservative".

Posted by: Laurie David's Cervix at June 21, 2015 08:19 PM (kdS6q)

49 Of course the Pope also just said weapons manufacturers cannot call themselves Christians. So glad I'm Wesleyan and can discount everything this moron says out of hand.

Posted by: Emile Antoon Khadaji at June 21, 2015 08:20 PM (Nj2wY)

50 Thank God for Martin Luther.

Posted by: I'm no great loss at June 21, 2015 08:20 PM (rZD6k)

51 I'm sorry. no. Father Rutler, and you say you trust him, has a greatly different take on this encyclical than what you're claiming here.
I don't have time to take this argument on right now, and bummer because I've been waiting for Ace or a cob logger to take on this encyclical.
Posted by: LadyS at June 21, 2015 08:15 PM (xYNhJ)

I know he does. It's why I linked him.

I think you're thinking I'm hyper positive about this document, and I am not.

But I DO recognize the theology in it, and the Christian bits that are in there are pretty good. The theological side of the document is basically a love letter to JPII and Benedict XVI. They're cited in there something like 24 times.

It's all the lefty PC crap that, to me, is decidedly un-Catholic.

Posted by: Sean Bannion at June 21, 2015 08:20 PM (V+kmg)

52 Always thought catastrophic man-made global warming fanatics were religious anyway so the Pope welcoming them back to the flock is only natural.

They both have a lot in common...neither is science, or at least based on the scientific method. Just replace the word "Global Warming" with "God" every time some warmist talks or writes about a storm or war or famine, and it all makes sense. Global Warming = God in their eyes...Example: The famine is caused by global warming = The famine is caused by a angry god.

Posted by: William Eaton at June 21, 2015 08:22 PM (q52Ma)

53 Francis the talking mule..... Perfect for this pope. Is a mule an ass?

http://tinyurl.com/nfewnf4

Posted by: Nip Sip at June 21, 2015 08:22 PM (0FSuD)

54 Pope Bruce Dern in Silent Running

Went to see that with some Navy buddies in the theater when it first came out. We thought it was going to be a submarine movie.

Posted by: Bertram Cabot Jr. at June 21, 2015 08:22 PM (W5DcG)

55 Maybe he could do himself a favor by, oh, I don't know, explicitly praising free market capitalism once in a while. It is the only moral economic system in all of human history, after all.
Posted by: rickl at June 21, 2015 08:19 PM (sdi6R)

Here. These guys do that:

http://www.acton.org

It's run by a priest.

Posted by: Sean Bannion at June 21, 2015 08:23 PM (V+kmg)

56 The Pope is Catholic?

Posted by: Miss Teen U.S. America at June 21, 2015 08:23 PM (Dwehj)

57 With the current state of the world, Francis may be better served dealing with things of religious nature.

"render unto Caesar, and all that.

Posted by: seamrog at June 21, 2015 08:23 PM (lv2Sf)

58 O/T Hammer this girl is hot, we may have a chance.

http://tinyurl.com/og6ru5z

Posted by: Nip Sip at June 21, 2015 08:23 PM (0FSuD)

59 I think the Pope and his fellow Constantinans are right. The earth is flat. Antarctica circles the whole plate of the earth. The North Pole is the center.

Posted by: Boss Moss at June 21, 2015 08:24 PM (SXQcx)

60 Sorry... but when a Religion contradicts the very world God made???

I'd say that religion has some problems.

Posted by: Bb Wolf at June 21, 2015 08:19 PM (qh617)

Ummmm, pretty much all of them do to one degree or another.

Posted by: Sean Bannion at June 21, 2015 08:24 PM (V+kmg)

61 Interesting and well written. I can't comment on his Catholic theology, I'll leave that to Catholics.

But if he wants to lecture to a wider audience on science then he becomes Bill Nye and subject to the same criticism. Just him, not the Church.

And I hate when people conflate made up climate change with being a good steward of the environment. Lefty's who large inhabit urban environments know just about dick about the environment.

Posted by: JackStraw at June 21, 2015 08:24 PM (g1DWB)

62 With the current state of the world, Francis may be better served dealing with things of religious nature.

"render unto Caesar, and all that.
Posted by: seamrog at June 21, 2015 08:23 PM (lv2Sf)

Ding, ding, ding!!!

THAT'S my problem with this thing.

Posted by: Sean Bannion at June 21, 2015 08:25 PM (V+kmg)

63 The Catholic church has never been without the need for money ,power or position. Read the intro into any Catholic bible, and if you don't submit to all doctrine you are not welcome. Feck Francis and his Marxist devotion.

Posted by: Ben Had at June 21, 2015 08:25 PM (kW+kE)

64 how does bring people closer to Christ, which is the purpose of the faith in the first place?

Posted by: almirante marcus at June 21, 2015 08:25 PM (0u/CC)

65 Posted by: Sean Bannion at June 21, 2015 08:20 PM (V+kmg)

Only if you look at the Catholic faith... like we do American law...

Where the Precedents set by earlier Supreme Courts are given great weight.... even to the point of over riding common sense...

You can build entire edifices of sophistry based on what 'earlier' folks said... and still be really really wrong.....

Posted by: Bb Wolf at June 21, 2015 08:26 PM (qh617)

66 Nice work, Sean.

Posted by: mrp at June 21, 2015 08:26 PM (JBggj)

67 The Earth is flat like a Pizza. Physicists already know this.

Posted by: Boss Moss at June 21, 2015 08:26 PM (SXQcx)

68 Everything that guy just said is bullshit!

Posted by: Anti Pope at June 21, 2015 08:26 PM (gTvCM)

69 60 Sorry... but when a Religion contradicts the very world God made???

I'd say that religion has some problems.

Posted by: Bb Wolf at June 21, 2015 08:19 PM (qh617)

Ummmm, pretty much all of them do to one degree or another.

Posted by: Sean Bannion at June 21, 2015 08:24 PM (V+kmg)

which is why, while semi religious and believing in God... you won't find me in a church...

Posted by: Bb Wolf at June 21, 2015 08:26 PM (qh617)

70 Most Popes were Italics.

Posted by: Boss Moss at June 21, 2015 08:28 PM (SXQcx)

71 The fact that some Catholics have to continually defend the Pope's words and actions to fellow conservatives says a lot. As a Conservative Catholic I despise Red Francis the False Pope. I wasn't fond of Pope Benedict either. Caritas in Veritate was a socialist stroke job. The Catholic Church is full of communists, homosexuals, and mafiosos. It needs to be purged and cleansed from top to bottom.

Posted by: Achilles at June 21, 2015 08:28 PM (TpeIH)

72 You can build entire edifices of sophistry based on what 'earlier' folks said... and still be really really wrong.....
Posted by: Bb Wolf at June 21, 2015 08:26 PM (qh617)

Sure can.

The Church isn't full of perfect people. No church is.

Not. A. One.

This document does NOT carry the weight of infallibility.

Posted by: Sean Bannion at June 21, 2015 08:28 PM (V+kmg)

73 Pope Bruce Dern in Silent Running

Went to see that with some Navy buddies in the theater when it first came out. We thought it was going to be a submarine movie.

-
A rather naive relative and her husband went to see Midnight Cowboy because they thought it was a western.

Posted by: The Great White Snark at June 21, 2015 08:28 PM (tRdrd)

74
Damn Popes

Whatever Francis wants...
Francis gets...
And little man, Francis wants you...

Posted by: Bruce With a Wang! at June 21, 2015 08:28 PM (iQIUe)

75 Posted by: Achilles at June 21, 2015 08:28 PM (TpeIH)

Give these guys a call

http://www.fsspx.org/en/

Posted by: Sean Bannion at June 21, 2015 08:29 PM (V+kmg)

76 67
The Earth is flat like a Pizza. Physicists already know this.

Posted by: Boss Moss at June 21, 2015 08:26 PM (SXQcx)

That's why we have "The find the pope in the pizza" contest.

http://tinyurl.com/o6jotea

Posted by: Nip Sip at June 21, 2015 08:29 PM (0FSuD)

77 Achilles- Amen.

Posted by: Ben Had at June 21, 2015 08:30 PM (kW+kE)

78 It's run by a priest.

Posted by: Sean Bannion at June 21, 2015 08:23 PM (V+kmg)

When they need a rouge bioethicist who tends to make enemies at the meetings of Catholic Hospital Administrators please, have them call me.

Posted by: tsrblke, PhD(c) rogue bioethicst at June 21, 2015 08:31 PM (s92xH)

79 When a moon hits your eye like a big pizza pie, that's amore

Posted by: Zombie Dino at June 21, 2015 08:31 PM (Dwehj)

80 isn't there a line in Genesis about "be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth and have dominion over it"?

I can't see that meaning "and be the guardian of earth in all its natural unspoiled glory" or some such tot like that.

Posted by: mallfly at June 21, 2015 08:32 PM (qSIlh)

81 I ceased being Roman Catholic in 1997. I stopped approving/disapproving of the pope at exactly the same time. (Not that was ever outspoken on the matter.)

I was surprised, however, to hear all sorts of opinions from my fellow Lutherans. I was also surprised to learn that I was still Catholic, even after converting.

Excellent post, Sean Bannion!

Posted by: FireHorse at June 21, 2015 08:32 PM (tn680)

82 Rouge is makeup. Rogue.

Posted by: Boss Moss at June 21, 2015 08:32 PM (SXQcx)

83 It's not that hard for the Pope to go to wattsupwiththat.com

He has now made AGW a Catholic Church issue.

No one made him do that.

Posted by: eman at June 21, 2015 08:32 PM (MQEz6)

84 * hmm. I wonder if I can further alienate the base*

Posted by: Karl Rove at June 21, 2015 08:32 PM (F2IAQ)

85 Still waiting for the ex-communication of Pelosi, Sebellius and so many other baby killing "Catholics."

But, power and money talks.

Posted by: I'm no great loss at June 21, 2015 08:33 PM (rZD6k)

86 When they need a rouge bioethicist who tends to make enemies at the meetings of Catholic Hospital Administrators please, have them call me.
Posted by: tsrblke, PhD(c) rogue bioethicst at June 21, 2015 08:31 PM (s92xH)

We should go into consulting together.

Posted by: Sean Bannion at June 21, 2015 08:33 PM (V+kmg)

87 62 Sean

When I hear political imbeciles like obama, gore,
kerry etc blather on about global warming, or climate change, or whatever they call it at the moment, I realize it's a political agenda deal.

They're full of shit.

But the Pope ????

Makes me wonder why he feels the need to be with the Dem "in crowd"

Posted by: seamrog at June 21, 2015 08:34 PM (lv2Sf)

88 I was surprised, however, to hear all sorts of opinions from my fellow Lutherans. I was also surprised to learn that I was still Catholic, even after converting.
Posted by: FireHorse at June 21, 2015 08:32 PM (tn680)

Semel Catholicus, semper Catholicus

Posted by: Sean Bannion at June 21, 2015 08:34 PM (V+kmg)

89 When I hear or read of people calling Pope Francis, I remember what Francis said after Putin (being Putin) arrived for a scheduled meeting at the Vatican an hour late.

The Holy Father greeted Vlad ( a former KGB officer who spent a lot of time in Germany) with a single word : "Willkommen"

Posted by: mrp at June 21, 2015 08:35 PM (JBggj)

90
But the Pope ????

Makes me wonder why he feels the need to be with the Dem "in crowd"
Posted by: seamrog at June 21, 2015 08:34 PM (lv2Sf)

Dude, I'm with you.

I did the full-on facepalm when I heard this thing was even coming out.

But the theology is solid. It's the other 50% of the thing that's just plain wrong.

Posted by: Sean Bannion at June 21, 2015 08:36 PM (V+kmg)

91 A rather naive relative and her husband went to see Midnight Cowboy because they thought it was a western.

Posted by: The Great White Snark

Now THAT's FUNNY!

Posted by: Bossy Conservative....lost in America at June 21, 2015 08:36 PM (+1T7c)

92 73 Pope Bruce Dern in Silent Running

Went to see that with some Navy buddies in the theater when it first came out. We thought it was going to be a submarine movie.

-
A rather naive relative and her husband went to see Midnight Cowboy because they thought it was a western.
Posted by: The Great White Snark at June 21, 2015 08:28 PM (tRdrd)
---
My dad bought me a Fritz the Cat comic book. Cuz cartoon kitties!

Posted by: All Hail Eris at June 21, 2015 08:37 PM (jR7Wy)

93 Global Warming has already flooded Venice.

Posted by: Boss Moss at June 21, 2015 08:37 PM (SXQcx)

94
The Earth is flat like a Pizza..
Posted by: Boss Moss

Friend
Get hip
would I climb aboard this ship

If I didn't have odds the Earth was highly -- spherical?

Posted by: Laurie David's Cervix at June 21, 2015 08:37 PM (kdS6q)

95 Still waiting for the ex-communication of Pelosi, Sebellius and so many other baby killing "Catholics."

But, power and money talks.
Posted by: I'm no great loss at June 21, 2015 08:33 PM (rZD6k)

All of them have been informed that they are barred from communion. In Pelosi's case it was personally by the Vatican.

Posted by: Sean Bannion at June 21, 2015 08:37 PM (V+kmg)

96 Still waiting for the ex-communication of Pelosi, Sebellius and so many other baby killing "Catholics."

Some sins are overlooked for the "greater good"...

Posted by: Zombie Dino at June 21, 2015 08:37 PM (Dwehj)

97 Posted by: Sean Bannion at June 21, 2015 08:13 PM (V+kmg

"Covered" is a bit strong there Bannion.

He points out the contradiction.

Having said that, a few things from the "bad, but practicing Catholic" here at the HQ.

1) The Church has no problem with "family planning" keeping in mind that they decry contraceptive culture. Indeed, they support NFP (although CBD is right that church sees "large families a sign of God's blessing and the parents' generosity.")

2) Although I'm not sure they see a large number of "individuals" as necessarily being "overconsuming." That is to say, there's a certain Aristotelian (via Thomas) in this whole thing. Golden mean between two vices and all that.

3) But Doubthat is right (FFS never thought I'd say that) in that the gist of the encyclical from what I've read is a bit doom and gloom.

Posted by: tsrblke, PhD(c) rogue bioethicst at June 21, 2015 08:38 PM (s92xH)

98 No offense to Catholics, but this pope guy is freakin dereanged. Makes me wonder about the dudes that put him in there. I bet this guy never even performed any miracles.

Posted by: Chavez the Hugo at June 21, 2015 08:38 PM (ucDmr)

99 If I want the infallible dope,
I come to the ashq,
and not the pope.
You morons here are just so smart,
seem so dignified even when you fart.

Seriously, you guys, do you think the pope ever farts? And I bet he don't own even one single Glock.

Posted by: Eromero at June 21, 2015 08:38 PM (go5uR)

100 hmm. I wonder if I can further alienate the base*
Posted by: Karl Rove

Yeah, who needs those knuckle-dragging, baby-worshipping, flat earther, cisnormative, gun nuts?

- The Bitch and Boner Experience

Posted by: The Great White Snark at June 21, 2015 08:38 PM (HzWH+)

101 51. I don't think you're dishonest or a fool, or naive, for what that's worth, Bannion. And II'll ignore, as usual, the probably-inculpably ignorant.
But I wish you hadn't praised the theology of the encyclical in any way. It is, as with everything else emanating from this pontificate, best ignored. I understand the desire to explain/clarify/fix. But I strongly disagree with the notion.
I apologize, as an imperfect but believing Catholic, for pretty much everything that comes out of the Vatican these days.
Bannion, to you: you know as well as I do who, what happened to the Church, and when, and by multiple whoms. It can't be conveyed here very well.
The problems go further back than 2/11/13. And the Church is still the Church, humiliated for 200 or so years as she has been. I had hoped for less Patheos apologia from you, since I suspect you actually know better.

Posted by: LadyS at June 21, 2015 08:38 PM (xYNhJ)

102 All of them have been informed that they are barred from communion. In Pelosi's case it was personally by the Vatican.

If so, I stand corrected.

Posted by: Zombie Dino at June 21, 2015 08:38 PM (Dwehj)

103 Semel Catholicus, semper Catholicus

Posted by: Sean Bannion at June 21, 2015 08:34 PM (V+kmg)
----
What if you're the offspring of a Catholic and a Baptist? Is it grandfathered in?

Posted by: All Hail Eris at June 21, 2015 08:39 PM (jR7Wy)

104 It comes across as a 'one world, one love' screed with a healthy side of environmentalism Mother Gaia. I hear what he's saying but it's definitely got a 'communist' bent to it in that the environment is some kind of diety to be venerated and protected. Of course that protection requires all of us to give up something. Of course some of us will be more equal than others and those of us who are less squall will need to give more.

Posted by: CrotchetyOldJarhead at June 21, 2015 08:39 PM (rPjB9)

105 What base, Karl?

Posted by: Bigby's Knuckle Sandwich at June 21, 2015 08:40 PM (Xl3/J)

106 Why is he so worried about Global Warming? He can't walk on water?

Posted by: Boss Moss at June 21, 2015 08:40 PM (SXQcx)

107
I just see communism as the enemy of the Church and me.

Posted by: Bruce With a Wang! at June 21, 2015 08:40 PM (iQIUe)

108 1) The Church has no problem with "family planning" keeping in mind that they decry contraceptive culture. Indeed, they support NFP (although CBD is right that church sees "large families a sign of God's blessing and the parents' generosity.")

2) Although I'm not sure they see a large number of "individuals" as necessarily being "overconsuming." That is to say, there's a certain Aristotelian (via Thomas) in this whole thing. Golden mean between two vices and all that.

3) But Doubthat is right (FFS never thought I'd say that) in that the gist of the encyclical from what I've read is a bit doom and gloom.
Posted by: tsrblke, PhD(c) rogue bioethicst at June 21, 2015 08:38 PM (s92xH)

Would "addressed" be more to your liking? C'mon man, stand-up theology is a bitch. I'm not like Seinfeld.

You're spot on on all 3 of your points though.

Creighton Method, FTW!

Posted by: Sean Bannion at June 21, 2015 08:40 PM (V+kmg)

109
Teh Ewok is gonna be in a tizzy when he finds out Bannion is getting in on the movie review action on the blog.

Posted by: IllTemperedCur at June 21, 2015 08:40 PM (+OXwX)

110

This is maize. What you call corn.

Posted by: Pope Mazola I

Posted by: Laurie David's Cervix at June 21, 2015 08:41 PM (kdS6q)

111 What if you're the offspring of a Catholic and a Baptist? Is it grandfathered in?
Posted by: All Hail Eris at June 21, 2015 08:39 PM (jR7Wy)

If you were baptized Catholic, you're always Catholic as far as the Church is concerned.

Posted by: Sean Bannion at June 21, 2015 08:41 PM (V+kmg)

112 I was baptized into this at an early age but I can tell you lapsed is my answer. John Paul 11 is the only Pope that could have brought me into the fold.

Posted by: Ben Had at June 21, 2015 08:41 PM (kW+kE)

113 Posted by: Sean Bannion at June 21, 2015 08:33 PM (V+kmg)

Wanna have some fun. I told a group once that the push (by Catholic Hospitals no less!) for online registration at ERs "to save time" encouraged overconsumption of medical resources (among other things.)

Square that with this latest circle.

That tends to make a bunch of "Systems ethicists" babble and tell you to shut up. (and let's face it their job is really to find the line but not cross it or cross it very carefully while running an enterprise that is only nominally "not for profit.")

Bannion: Idea for paper. You can have first author

Posted by: tsrblke, PhD(c) rogue bioethicst at June 21, 2015 08:42 PM (s92xH)

114 Teh Ewok is gonna be in a tizzy when he finds out Bannion is getting in on the movie review action on the blog.
Posted by: IllTemperedCur at June 21, 2015 08:40 PM (+OXwX)

If there's ever a next time I'll just make the opening sentence, "Danger, theology. Too long. Do not read"

Posted by: Sean Bannion at June 21, 2015 08:42 PM (V+kmg)

115 Would "overconsumption" be ordering eight-a meatballs instead of a-four?

Posted by: Zombie Dino at June 21, 2015 08:43 PM (Dwehj)

116 Seriously, you guys, do you think the pope ever farts?

=====

They're all old old guys. I'm surprised there's never been a shart in all that white clothing

Posted by: Bigby's Knuckle Sandwich at June 21, 2015 08:43 PM (NrRes)

117 Bannion: Idea for paper. You can have first author .
Posted by: tsrblke, PhD(c) rogue bioethicst at June 21, 2015 08:42 PM (s92xH)

Cool.

Can you assign me the super hawt Research Assistants?

I work better when properly motivated.

Posted by: Sean Bannion at June 21, 2015 08:43 PM (V+kmg)

118
90
But the Pope ????

Makes me wonder why he feels the need to be with the Dem "in crowd"
Posted by: seamrog at June 21, 2015 08:34 PM (lv2Sf)

Dude, I'm with you.

I did the full-on facepalm when I heard this thing was even coming out.

But the theology is solid. It's the other 50% of the thing that's just plain wrong.
Posted by: Sean Bannion at June 21, 2015 08:36 PM (V+kmg)

Why are you separating the two subjects?; the Pope didn't.

Posted by: eman at June 21, 2015 08:43 PM (MQEz6)

119 "71
The fact that some Catholics have to continually defend the Pope's words
and actions to fellow conservatives says a lot. As a Conservative
Catholic I despise Red Francis the False Pope. I wasn't fond of Pope
Benedict either. Caritas in Veritate was a socialist stroke job. The
Catholic Church is full of communists, homosexuals, and mafiosos. It
needs to be purged and cleansed from top to bottom.

Posted by: Achilles at June 21, 2015 08:28 PM (TpeIH)"

The Sedevecantists are always looking for new members. They have a purged and cleansed organization that might meet your high standards.

Posted by: Obnoxious A-Hole at June 21, 2015 08:43 PM (QHgTq)

120 All those felt signs in Catholic Churches seem to be in Greek rather than Latin.

Posted by: Boss Moss at June 21, 2015 08:44 PM (SXQcx)

121 Recommend "The Whole Story of Climate", by E. Kirsten Peters. The pope should read it as well.

Posted by: Edmund Burke's Shade, languishing in Krazyfornia at June 21, 2015 08:44 PM (cmBvC)

122 Why are you separating the two subjects?; the Pope didn't.
Posted by: eman at June 21, 2015 08:43 PM (MQEz6)

Did you read the encyclical?

Not trolling, serious question.

Posted by: Sean Bannion at June 21, 2015 08:44 PM (V+kmg)

123 Is it true the Pope said people who make guns can't be Christians or did I misunderstand that too.

Posted by: just saying at June 21, 2015 08:44 PM (wkuqO)

124 116: I know there was one pope that toward the end, needed somebody to wipe his ass everytime he took a smash. Pretty sure that guy went heaven on the express train.

Posted by: Chavez the Hugo at June 21, 2015 08:44 PM (ucDmr)

125

When I see this girl... of such a beautiful spirit... so degraded... and this boy... that I love... sprawled out by this big ape here... and this little girl, who is so special to us we call her "God's little gift of sunshine"... and I think of the number of years that she's going to have to carry in her memory... the savagery of this idiotic moment of yours... I just go BERSERK!

Posted by: Pope Billy Jack I

Posted by: Laurie David's Cervix at June 21, 2015 08:45 PM (kdS6q)

126 Recommend "The Whole Story of Climate", by E. Kirsten Peters. The pope should read it as well.
Posted by: Edmund Burke's Shade, languishing in Krazyfornia at June 21, 2015 08:44 PM (cmBvC)

Or anything by Bjorn Lomborg

Posted by: Sean Bannion at June 21, 2015 08:46 PM (V+kmg)

127 Isn't Bjorn Scandi?

Posted by: Boss Moss at June 21, 2015 08:47 PM (SXQcx)

128 Posted by: Sean Bannion at June 21, 2015 08:43 PM (V+kmg)

[Deletes various title IX problematic statements.]

Funny thing, out to dinner with a fellow RA once. After going on for 10 minutes about basically "fight the bishops leftize the church from within" she said "I'm a Catholic like you're a Catholic [tsr]"

My AGONISTIC wife, looked over and said "you have no idea anything about his Catholicism, stop talking."

Posted by: tsrblke, PhD(c) rogue bioethicst at June 21, 2015 08:47 PM (s92xH)

129
122 Why are you separating the two subjects?; the Pope didn't.
Posted by: eman at June 21, 2015 08:43 PM (MQEz6)

Did you read the encyclical?

Not trolling, serious question.
Posted by: Sean Bannion at June 21, 2015 08:44 PM (V+kmg)

I did not. Are there two or one?

Posted by: eman at June 21, 2015 08:47 PM (MQEz6)

130 Lighten up, Francis.

Posted by: Stripes Pope joke at June 21, 2015 08:47 PM (Nd4YY)

131 Go ahead. Make my day.

- Pope Harry

Posted by: The Great White Snark at June 21, 2015 08:47 PM (8iiwv)

132 Go ahead. Make my day.

- Pope Harry

Posted by: The Great White Snark at June 21, 2015 08:47 PM (8iiwv)

133 The Pope needs to be a better communicator. What the LICs (Low Information Catholics) hear is "Socialist redistribution of wealth is totes cool, but capitalist creation of wealth is wrong and evil".

They are not going to go into it in any greater depth than that.

Therefore, if the Pope really means that capitalism is good and socialism is evil, he needs to say it explicitly. This Pope is not doing that. He is doing quite the opposite.

Posted by: rickl at June 21, 2015 08:47 PM (sdi6R)

134 The Sedevecantists are always looking for new members. They have a
purged and cleansed organization that might meet your high standards.

======

Wikipedia lists six sedevecantist organizations.

Posted by: mrp at June 21, 2015 08:47 PM (JBggj)

135 I was elated when John Paul II became Pope.

Broke up the Italian "monopoly" that had been in place for too long.

A Polish Pope.

JPII helped change his world.

Benedict was another knowledgeable man of conviction, but apparently his health was a concern.

Francis seems to want to fit in with the current swing of liberalism in the world.

Hate to say it, he's a facebook Pope.

tend to your flock, and put your Iphone down.

Posted by: seamrog at June 21, 2015 08:47 PM (lv2Sf)

136 maybe that's why the pope emeritus wears houndstooth

Posted by: Bigby's Knuckle Sandwich at June 21, 2015 08:48 PM (5epyp)

137 Obnoxious A-hole, those of us who can't take comfort in the irrational world of sedevacantists, but who know church history, thank you for all your support. Yes, sarc. It's hard to be a Catholic these days.
Achilles, you're not alone, even around here. Salud!

Posted by: LadyS at June 21, 2015 08:48 PM (xYNhJ)

138 Isn't Bjorn Scandi?
Posted by: Boss Moss at June 21, 2015 08:47 PM (SXQcx)

But he's a good Scandi!

Posted by: Sean Bannion at June 21, 2015 08:49 PM (V+kmg)

139 I would think failing to call out all sinners and not just some is contributing to global warming as well- a warming from those fiery flames "below."

Posted by: Rex B at June 21, 2015 08:49 PM (igEaG)

140 Why did the Pope speak about AGW and the environment?

Why did he say the things he did?

How does he want Catholics to respond?

What are his goals and what are his motives?

Who is this guy?

Posted by: eman at June 21, 2015 08:52 PM (MQEz6)

141 Agw is an apostate religion.

Posted by: testsnark at June 21, 2015 08:52 PM (yjNNG)

142 If you were baptized Catholic, you're always Catholic as far as the Church is concerned.
Posted by: Sean Bannion at June 21, 2015 08:41 PM (V+kmg)

***

*Shrugs*
They can consider as they wish.

I was baptized, raised in and confirmed Catholic. 7 years as an Altar boy. CCD. The whole deal. I was on the edge after seeing all of the Church's hypocrisy in the 90s. 2 Catholic Weddings at which the Priest would not serve Communion (their choice) to non Confirmed Catholics in the early 2000s broke the Camel's back for me.

When they get back to basics such as Spiritual matters only and having their rhetoric match their actions, I may be back. Until then, as far as I am concerned, they are down one.

Posted by: ManWithNoParty, unperson from Free Market Jesus Paradise at June 21, 2015 08:52 PM (p7dd/)

143 If we confess our sins and say some hail Marys He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleans us from all unrighteousness.

Must keep the Scriptures in a language the proles can't understand. They might figure out that because of what Jesus did they can walk right into the Holy of Holies, sit on Dad's lap and talk directly to him. Don't need us at all.
Then where would we be.

Posted by: I'm no great loss at June 21, 2015 08:53 PM (rZD6k)

144 Francis seems to want to fit in with the current swing of liberalism in the world.

Hate to say it, he's a facebook Pope.

tend to your flock, and put your Iphone down.

Posted by: seamrog at June 21, 2015 08:47 PM (lv2Sf)

I take your point, but he's not tech savvy. But your underlying point still holds.

I think back to my time in the Army. You lead a platoon, differently than you lead a company. You lead a battalion differently than you lead either.

The absolute worst leaders that I saw were those who were at the operational or strategic level of leadership, but they still ran everything like that were 22 years old Second Lieutenants.

Francis was a man of the people in Argentina. If he was your Bishop you probably thought he was the finest bishop there ever was because he was out among the common people all day.

But....that's not how you run the worldwide Church. You're more on display, your smallest actions are scrutinized for meaning. I just think Francis doesn't understand that...or doesn't care.

This is causing problems.

Posted by: Sean Bannion at June 21, 2015 08:53 PM (V+kmg)

145 How fecked up is this. Even though I'm a lapsed Catholic in can still feel the guilt.

Posted by: Ben Had at June 21, 2015 08:55 PM (kW+kE)

146 "All of them have been informed that they are barred from communion. In Pelosi's case it was personally by the Vatican."

No shit?

I don't follow the Catholic stuff, but I would consider that somewhat huge, if true.

Posted by: Village Idiot's Apprentice at June 21, 2015 08:55 PM (VPLuQ)

147
I think the most important point in this post was that the encyclical is 192 pages. Just about any headline you read is going to be.... wrong.

Posted by: Guy Mohawk at June 21, 2015 08:55 PM (ODxAs)

148 Still waiting for the ex-communication of Pelosi, Sebellius and so many other baby killing "Catholics."
------------------

A marriage, here, a marriage there, a little adultery, what's the big deal?

Posted by: Ted Kennedy at June 21, 2015 08:56 PM (F2IAQ)

149 But....that's not how you run the worldwide Church. You're more on display, your smallest actions are scrutinized for meaning. I just think Francis doesn't understand that...or doesn't care.

This is causing problems.
Posted by: Sean Bannion at June 21, 2015 08:53 PM (V+kmg)

Or maybe he does understand it and has goals you don't want believe are true.

Posted by: eman at June 21, 2015 08:56 PM (MQEz6)

150 But....that's not how you run the worldwide Church. You're more on display, your smallest actions are scrutinized for meaning. I just think Francis doesn't understand that...or doesn't care.

This is causing problems.
Posted by: Sean Bannion at June 21, 2015 08:53 PM (V+kmg)

Maybe he does talk to God, and has inside information. Or not. I don't really know. I'm not of the AGW religion, but what if it is true and the pope is out there leading us?

Posted by: just saying at June 21, 2015 08:56 PM (wkuqO)

151 peace out people I'm going to spend the rest of my first father's day on the couch.

Posted by: tsrblke, PhD(c) rogue bioethicst at June 21, 2015 08:57 PM (s92xH)

152 I have bigger fish to fry, if you'll pardon the pun.

Posted by: San Fran Nan at June 21, 2015 08:57 PM (Dwehj)

153 Why did the Pope speak about AGW and the environment?

Because he can.

Why did he say the things he did?

see above

How does he want Catholics to respond?

To the dictates of their well-formed (key phrase) consciences. If your conscience tells you that the surest way to lift the most out of poverty is free-market capitalism - then it ain't a sin. The key is in ensuring your conscience is "well-formed."

What are his goals and what are his motives?

Personal opinion: I think his heart is in the right place but he's off on execution. Way off.

Posted by: Sean Bannion at June 21, 2015 08:57 PM (V+kmg)

154 144
I think back to my time in the Army. You lead a platoon, differently than you lead a company. You lead a battalion differently than you lead either.

The absolute worst leaders that I saw were those who were at the operational or strategic level of leadership, but they still ran everything like that were 22 years old Second Lieutenants.

Francis was a man of the people in Argentina. If he was your Bishop you probably thought he was the finest bishop there ever was because he was out among the common people all day.

But....that's not how you run the worldwide Church. You're more on display, your smallest actions are scrutinized for meaning. I just think Francis doesn't understand that...or doesn't care.

This is causing problems.
Posted by: Sean Bannion at June 21, 2015 08:53 PM (V+kmg)

That's a great point.

Posted by: rickl at June 21, 2015 08:57 PM (sdi6R)

155 It seems like it's not just the GOP that shits on its base.

Since the pope has now said gun manufacturers can't call themselves Christian, I guess the Vatican security forces will now be disarming and the popes security detail will likewise be unarmed when he travels abroad.

Posted by: Kreplach at June 21, 2015 08:58 PM (WVvzl)

156 The absolute worst leaders that I saw were those who were at the operational or strategic level of leadership, but they still ran everything like that were 22 years old Second Lieutenants.
------------------

Stop calling me 'Corporal', dammit!

Posted by: Hitler at June 21, 2015 08:58 PM (F2IAQ)

157 Or maybe he does understand it and has goals you don't want believe are true.
Posted by: eman at June 21, 2015 08:56 PM (MQEz6)

This could also be true.

Posted by: Sean Bannion at June 21, 2015 08:58 PM (V+kmg)

158 ManWithNoParty, you expected ministers of the Church to be perfect. And you yourself decided you were no hypocrite regarding doctrine, and were better than the imperfect bearers of the teachings.
There's no one harder to reach than a 'lapsed' Catholic, ie, another Luther.

Posted by: LadyS at June 21, 2015 08:58 PM (xYNhJ)

159 1980s: Reagan, The Iron Lady, and John Paul II

Today: Barky, The Mewling Quim, and Pope Frankie Goes To Hollywood

Posted by: The Great White Snark at June 21, 2015 08:59 PM (Ueht0)

160 Just wondering if anyone could comment on the 'our Sister, Mother Earth' in the opening paragraph. One of the last few times LCMS switched our hymnals, we made a point of dropping any reference to 'Mother Nature' as it was too goddess-y. So I'm wondering if this is common usage elsewhere and what your meaning in the term is.

My sense of the opening after that was that he wanted to make the case this wasn't anything new (in contradiction to the hype preceeding it), so I skiummed until paragraph 20.

I read 20-52 or so, which was as much as I was willing to give it. So if there was any good stuff, I didn't see it. He starts in 20 to complain about technology, and then goes on at great length to lament problems that are best solved with the application of technology. I have a particular problem with 28 where he criticizes market forces being applied to water because of its scarcity (when the whole point of market forces is to solve the problem of scarcity!). In 30, where, having asserted global warming has deprived the world's poor of water, that we have some obligation to them to provide them with more.

45 I think is a moment of brilliance which he misses in spite of writing it. It is much the same observation we make between Israelis and palestinians. One area is green because it is filled with people who give a shit and take care of their stuff, while the other-isn't.

51 is pretty much where I file him away as a commie. He asserts that we in the civilized world owe a debt to the lesser nations because of out 'disproportionate use of natural resources.' Greater use of resources is what 'wealthy' means! I am hard pressed what a 'proportionate' use of resources could mean aside from communism. He goes on to complain about problems companies leave when there is no more work to be done, namely unemployment (that's what no more work to be done means) and abandoned towns, which they wouldn't dare do in the developed world (see Detroit and Pittsburgh for starters, dude).

54 would seal the deal if not already done. It isn't enough to make his case, but he chooses to demonize those of us who disagree as being special or economic interests. This is of course what leftists always do when they know their positions cannot survive sunlight.

I can't find it know, as I was loosely skimming the rest Thursday, but the final bit of irksomeness was the assertion that we are all one great human family. No. No, we are not. We have never been in history, are not today, and there is no reason to think we will be thus (until after Christ's return). My responsibilities are to my actual family, my church family, my actual neighbor (those who are geographically close), my fellow Americans. I have no responsiblity to or for anyone in South America, or Africa, or Asia, or Europe, and frankly I don't see a point attempting to improve the situation even of people who live in nearby Chicago who insist on voting for economic ruin every chance they get.

Anyway. Just needed to get that off my chest. Thanks for the thread.

Posted by: Methos at June 21, 2015 09:00 PM (ZbV+0)

161 I see where the Pope is going with this (I think): if you desecrate God's creation, the earth, you have separated yourself from both God, as a creation of Him, and from other creatures of God, and placed yourself above both.

The language is just so puce and purple and patchouli.

Posted by: All Hail Eris at June 21, 2015 09:00 PM (jR7Wy)

162 Since the pope has now said gun manufacturers can't
call themselves Christian, I guess the Vatican security forces will now
be disarming and the popes security detail will likewise be unarmed when
he travels abroad.

Posted by: Kreplach at June 21, 2015 08:58 PM (WVvzl)

=========
Although I'll form a final opinion on Pope Francis' comments later, the statement above was the first thought that came to mind after reading the headlines.

Posted by: mrp at June 21, 2015 09:01 PM (JBggj)

163 No shit?

I don't follow the Catholic stuff, but I would consider that somewhat huge, if true.
Posted by: Village Idiot's Apprentice at June 21, 2015 08:55 PM (VPLuQ)

No shit.

Pelosi obviously doesn't talk about it because then she can't use [insert Pelosi's batshit crazy definition of Catholicism here] as a shield against criticism.

The Church does not talk about it because it is a spiritual matter between a confessor and a penitent.

Or, in her, case a non-penitent.

Posted by: Sean Bannion at June 21, 2015 09:01 PM (V+kmg)

164 A little mood music:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GGBHfXPqbgI

Posted by: Anti-Pope Beelzebub I at June 21, 2015 09:01 PM (7YlUk)

165 The language is just so puce and purple and patchouli.
Posted by: All Hail Eris at June 21, 2015 09:00 PM (jR7Wy)

Did you pick that up too?

I'm also hearing sitar music.

Jus sayin

Posted by: Sean Bannion at June 21, 2015 09:02 PM (V+kmg)

166 ManWithNoParty, you expected ministers of the Church to be perfect. And you yourself decided you were no hypocrite regarding doctrine, and were better than the imperfect bearers of the teachings.
There's no one harder to reach than a 'lapsed' Catholic, ie, another Luther.
Posted by: LadyS at June 21, 2015 08:58 PM (xYNhJ)

****
No, I expect them to be fallible and a sinner, just as I am. My actions, or lack thereof, reflect my disappointment at the constant direction of said fallible actions on their part.

Posted by: ManWithNoParty, unperson from Free Market Jesus Paradise at June 21, 2015 09:02 PM (QNcbF)

167 Just wondering if anyone could comment on the 'our Sister, Mother Earth' in the opening paragraph. One of the last few times LCMS switched our hymnals, we made a point of dropping any reference to 'Mother Nature' as it was too goddess-y. So I'm wondering if this is common usage elsewhere and what your meaning in the term is.

It is a nod to the St. Francis' canticles.

Here's one, so you get the gist.

http://www.appleseeds.org/canticle.htm

Posted by: Sean Bannion at June 21, 2015 09:03 PM (V+kmg)

168 Oh, and lol at the gratuitous Highlander reference.

Posted by: Methos at June 21, 2015 09:04 PM (ZbV+0)

169 144 Sean

First of all, Thanks for having the balls to address this topic.

I doubt that the horde is mostly Catholic, but that's a good thing.

There will be lots of criticism of our Faith, some constructive, some not so.

I lately wonder what the Papal Conclave were burning to send up that white smoke.

bammy and Francis at the same time will either make me stronger or throw in the caring towel.

Posted by: seamrog at June 21, 2015 09:04 PM (lv2Sf)

170 "Or, in her, case a non-penitent."

Damn....thanks.

Maybe she's one of those Trans-Catholics.

Posted by: Village Idiot's Apprentice at June 21, 2015 09:06 PM (VPLuQ)

171 or it reads like a chapter in some end of times novel, where a pope calls of the institution of one world government, ushering in a charismatic anti-christ.

the pocky lips cometh.

Posted by: steinmetz at June 21, 2015 09:06 PM (CrYC8)

172 I can't find it know, as I was loosely skimming the rest Thursday, but the final bit of irksomeness was the assertion that we are all one great human family.
Posted by: Methos at June 21, 2015 09:00 PM (ZbV+0)

Spiritually, you're wrong on that point.

In the physical world, yes, of course you're correct.

Or maybe not...since science tells us that every bit of matter in the universe today was once compressed into a massive dense and hot sphere? block? location? and then...Big Bang.

So...atomically, yeah we're probably all one big happy family.

Posted by: Sean Bannion at June 21, 2015 09:06 PM (V+kmg)

173
They took all the trees
Put 'em in a tree museum

And they charged the people
A dollar and a half just to see 'em

Posted by: Pope Joni Mitchell I

Posted by: Laurie David's Cervix at June 21, 2015 09:07 PM (kdS6q)

174 Oh, and lol at the gratuitous Highlander reference.
Posted by: Methos at June 21, 2015 09:04 PM (ZbV+0)

*fist bump*

Posted by: Sean Bannion at June 21, 2015 09:07 PM (V+kmg)

175 Posted by: Sean Bannion at June 21, 2015 08:53 PM (V+kmg)

The Peter Principle.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Principle

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at June 21, 2015 09:07 PM (Zu3d9)

176 Maybe she's one of those Trans-Catholics.

I am catnormative.

Posted by: San Fran Nan at June 21, 2015 09:07 PM (Dwehj)

177 The Peter Principle.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Principle
Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at June 21, 2015 09:07 PM (Zu3d9)

I didn't wanna say it but....yeeeeahhh.

(I'm so going to Hell)

Posted by: Sean Bannion at June 21, 2015 09:10 PM (V+kmg)

178 I was surprised, however, to hear all sorts of opinions from my fellow
Lutherans. I was also surprised to learn that I was still Catholic, even
after converting.

Some of us still hold it against Luther that he was Catholic half his life.

Posted by: Methos (who doesn't belong to the Wisconsin synod) at June 21, 2015 09:10 PM (ZbV+0)

179 When I think of an uplifting spiritual experience, I think of the Folsom Street Parade.

Posted by: San Fran Nan at June 21, 2015 09:11 PM (Dwehj)

180 Thanks for trying Sean. But the confirmation bias seems still strong amongst some.

*sigh*

The Left's idea of Nature or Darwin is a warped ideology that sees Man more as an infection than actually part of the biosphere. Because Man is a cancer upon Gaia, the Left feels justified in trying to exterminate the cancer whilst forggeting that cancer is People.

Posted by: Anna Puma at June 21, 2015 09:11 PM (uxRv6)

181 I have to admit to a very hot dose of stink eye I gave to the Pope's supposed maunderings about climate.

This isn't the first time what he's said has struck a sour note with me but on second look I realize I may be misjudging him and committing a gell-man amnesia.

But I'm a Prod so we look with great leeriness about all things Papist anyway.

This has made me feel a bit chagrined and I apologize even though I made no great bones about it or any rash accusations. (well I called the pope a commie. So. Sue me.)

Further reading has led me to believe that this wily old God Botherer might have stuck a stick in the Left's spokes only they're too stupid and too blind to see it. YET.

Thanks for the reasoned and calm reminder to not believe any of what you read.

Posted by: Jakee308 at June 21, 2015 09:12 PM (x3GpS)

182 Yes, but you didn't stay? They screwed up so you decided you were better off away, somewhere you didn't have to listen to Christ's teachings because they're proclaimed by jerks like us?
ManWithNoParty, if this thread makes anything clear, I hope you see that I'm knowledgeably critical of the papacy/Vatican for its...hmmm...accommodations...which are not recent.
These things are complex. The answer to 'where, Lord, shall we go?' I think you've already been there. Best and, yes, prayers, for that.

Posted by: LadyS at June 21, 2015 09:12 PM (xYNhJ)

183 Just goes to show... can't make sense of any of those mackerel snappers!

Posted by: WASP at June 21, 2015 09:13 PM (z44PD)

184 So the brilliant theologian, Benedict XVI, steps aside (pushed) and we now have the fulfillment of the Vatican II wizards. Ain't it great?

Posted by: NCwoof at June 21, 2015 09:13 PM (aUQgu)

185 By the way, Judaism has none of these problems (but many, many others).

There is no central hierarchy. No head rabbi. Nothing that smacks of central planning. We are a chaotic religion.

And now I am off to eat handmade mozzarella from Vito's Deli in Hoboken.

Hah!

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at June 21, 2015 09:14 PM (Zu3d9)

186 Posted by: Methos at June 21, 2015 09:00 PM (ZbV+0)

Charity is important yo.
Communism is the oppose of charity.

At times Francis seems to lock on to what one of my professors calls "the difference between a proponent of the market and a capitalist"

The former is self explanatory. The latter sees money as the determinant of the good. (briefly)

Posted by: tsrblke (phone) at June 21, 2015 09:14 PM (s92xH)

187 *scratches head*

Ummmm, I'm Protestant and I believe the actual science that says global warming is a scam. I'll leave you Catholics to it.

Posted by: pookysgirl can walk (a few yards) at June 21, 2015 09:14 PM (FDfVQ)

188 Didn't know there so many LCMS types around.

Posted by: Barb the Evil Genius at June 21, 2015 09:15 PM (9Y7bY)

189 OK, I'm out.

Because it's Father's Day, and I think I'm going to go try and become one again. IYKWIMAITTYD.

Thanks for indulging me on my virginal post. I'll try never to talk about theology again.

.....

Oh, Mrs. Baaaaaaaaaaannnniiioooonnnnnnn!!!!!!!

Posted by: Sean Bannion at June 21, 2015 09:16 PM (V+kmg)

190 In other words, the pope is full of shit.

Posted by: Duncan MacLeod, the Highlander at June 21, 2015 09:16 PM (COpZ4)

191 > Ummmm, I'm Protestant and I believe the actual science that says global warming is a scam. I'll leave you Catholics to it.

*fistbump*

Posted by: WASP at June 21, 2015 09:16 PM (Zf6/9)

192 185 CBD

Well, we DO have the problem that must of our American lansmen have suborned their Judaism to their liberalism.

Posted by: speedster1 on the ipad at June 21, 2015 09:17 PM (1brdf)

193 Tl;dr

Posted by: Pope Alexander VI at June 21, 2015 09:17 PM (oZr5y)

194 Sean Boyo, what toys did your wife borrow from AlextheChick or All Hail Eris?

Posted by: Anna Puma at June 21, 2015 09:17 PM (uxRv6)

195 I must include here that I have no problems with people who attend Catholic churches. That would really be a problem as my best friend and fellow patriot is, you guessed it, Catholic.
Like all churches is is peopled by Christians and non Christians.
It is the church itself, and many of its teachings that I have a problem with.

And not being the wordsmithy type, I fear that the love I hold for my brothers and sisters who place their faith in Christ's perfect sacrifice didn't come through.
I pray that's not the case.

Posted by: I'm no great loss at June 21, 2015 09:18 PM (rZD6k)

196 Posted by: LadyS at June 21, 2015 08:48 PM (xYNhJ)

Having lost my country, I have been nearly driven to despair by the gibbering simians of the media trying to convince me that the Pope is commanding all Catholics to believe in the bullshit of Anthropogenic Global Warming or face excommunication, I am very grateful to Bannion for his effort.

I am glad to learn that I will not be pulling a Gallileo except saying, "Eppure si raffredda."

You are correct that it is not easy to be a Catholic. I don't guess it was ever supposed to be but it is more difficult when not all the slings and arrows are coming from outside.

The thing is, the door is always open. If somebody is as unhappy as Achilles seems to be, nobody is requiring him to remain. The Church is not going to be purged and cleansed from top to bottom. If you choose to remain, you have to understand that. The Church will continue to be operated by human beings and people can be assholes. That is not going to change.

Posted by: Obnoxious A-Hole at June 21, 2015 09:18 PM (QHgTq)

197 Well, we DO have the problem that must of our American lansmen have suborned their Judaism to their liberalism.

That's a feature, not a bug.

Posted by: Prez'nit O'Dhimmi at June 21, 2015 09:18 PM (Dwehj)

198 189 SB

Please reconsider (re not posting on religion again).

I really enjoyed your post, learned a lot from it.

Thank you!

Posted by: speedster1 on the ipad at June 21, 2015 09:19 PM (1brdf)

199 These things are complex. The answer to 'where, Lord, shall we go?' I think you've already been there. Best and, yes, prayers, for that.
Posted by: LadyS at June 21, 2015 09:12 PM (xYNhJ)

***

I never said I left either Religion in general or Spirituality at all. The Catholic church holds no monopolies on either of these issues.

Posted by: ManWithNoParty, unperson from Free Market Jesus Paradise at June 21, 2015 09:19 PM (QNcbF)

200 Maybe she's one of those Trans-Catholics.

Posted by: Village Idiot's Apprentice at June 21, 2015 09:06 PM (VPLuQ)
======
That didn't stop Pelosi from kissing Pope Benedict XVI's ring on the White House Lawn.

Posted by: mrp at June 21, 2015 09:19 PM (JBggj)

201 Religion is about believing.

I believe Sean will be in the top ten commenters, easily this week.

Like a featherweight boxer throwing and blocking punches from everywhere.

This country needs a lot more like you.

Posted by: seamrog at June 21, 2015 09:20 PM (lv2Sf)

202 >> 201 Religion is about believing

I believe I'll have another beer.

:-)

Posted by: speedster1 on the ipad at June 21, 2015 09:23 PM (1brdf)

203 **Spiritually, you are wrong on that point.**

Actually, no, you are wrong.
Unless you want to argue with Christ's words.

You are of your father, the devil.

There is the body of Christ, and those who are not of the body. They are not the same family.

Posted by: I'm no great loss at June 21, 2015 09:23 PM (rZD6k)

204 It is a nod to the St. Francis' canticles.

Here's one, so you get the gist.

Ah, okay it makes sense he'd make a reference to his namessake.

Posted by: Methos at June 21, 2015 09:24 PM (ZbV+0)

205 160
Posted by: Methos at June 21, 2015 09:00 PM (ZbV+0)

Great comment, Methos.

Posted by: rickl at June 21, 2015 09:24 PM (sdi6R)

206 I also thank you, Sean B, for a thoroughly researched post. Please continue this work.

I disagree that Benedict and Francis are on the same theological page. Benedict was focused on returning the church to the usus antiquor and the use once again of sacred music. Francis has decided to focus on secular culture.

Sad for us who long for celebration of the true mystery of Holy Mass.

By the way, the pews continue to empty.

Posted by: NCwoof at June 21, 2015 09:26 PM (aUQgu)

207 i can see how a one world government with dictatorial powers would appeal to a pope, mirroring the church's structure. but his is a spiritual realm. since when do popes decree secular world governments? yeah, i suppose they've been doing it all along. seems to be out of his province by christ's own pronouncements.

Posted by: steinmetz at June 21, 2015 09:27 PM (CrYC8)

208 Pope Francis is a blithering idiot. Infallible, my ass.

Posted by: Cicero (@cicero) at June 21, 2015 09:28 PM (oZr5y)

209 Agree rickl, Methos' @160 was excellent.
Wish I would have said so earlier.

Posted by: I'm no great loss at June 21, 2015 09:30 PM (rZD6k)

210 By the way, the pews continue to empty.

Posted by: NCwoof at June 21, 2015 09:26 PM (aUQgu)

***

Yeppers.

However, the Church has endured fools many times before, and still stands. I am hoping to see a return to basics in my lifetime.

As I am 52, they are running out of time.

Posted by: ManWithNoParty, unperson from Free Market Jesus Paradise at June 21, 2015 09:30 PM (mG3Qj)

211 O/T: Well I just had the opportunity to experience WalMart's higher wages.

5 human cashiers, 8 self-checkout lanes.

Posted by: chemjeff at June 21, 2015 09:31 PM (2XMpf)

212 I really don't care what religion you subscribe to, or even if you don't.

There is Good and Evil in the world.

Which side are you on ?

And to what degree ?

People across the globe are being brutally murdered for their beliefs.

That's a real concern.

I don't think global warming is even a topic to consider. Unless you're a coward or a politician.

Did I just repeat myself ?

Posted by: seamrog at June 21, 2015 09:31 PM (lv2Sf)

213 Huh, no new camera angle for George Osbourne during PMQ.

Posted by: derit at June 21, 2015 09:31 PM (jT+gh)

214 Thanks, Sean and CBD. A very clarifying post.

Posted by: KT at June 21, 2015 09:31 PM (qahv/)

215 Isn't a canticles a kind of rooster, or something?

Posted by: Miss Teen U.S. America at June 21, 2015 09:31 PM (Dwehj)

216 Religion and politics don't mix well (and AGW is very political)...one or both winds up losing major credibility when they meet...somebody should pass that along to this Pope.

Posted by: rc at June 21, 2015 09:33 PM (J4ZHs)

217 Oh for the love of Pistol Pete Maravich.
Off no great loss sock.

Posted by: teej at June 21, 2015 09:33 PM (rZD6k)

218 Catholics are Communists!?

*Gasps. Look around at Horde*

Posted by: Ricardo Kill at June 21, 2015 09:33 PM (KsORK)

219
By the way, Judaism has none of these problems. There is no central hierarchy. No head rabbi. Nothing that smacks of central planning.
Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo

Yeah -- now.

Posted by: Titus and Legio XV Apollinaris

Posted by: Laurie David's Cervix at June 21, 2015 09:35 PM (kdS6q)

220 189 Oh, Mrs. Baaaaaaaaaaannnniiioooonnnnnnn!!!!!!!

Posted by: Sean Bannion at June 21, 2015 09:16 PM (V+kmg)

Jeeze, look what you Morons have done to poor Mrs. Bannion. I hope you're proud of yourselves.

Posted by: antisocial justice beatnik at June 21, 2015 09:35 PM (9jUcX)

221 Hi ya chemjeff.
Yup. Usually grocery shop at wallmart. Right on my way out of town.
You actually had 5 living cashiers? Must be on the rich side of town.

Ever get to Parkville?

Posted by: teej at June 21, 2015 09:36 PM (rZD6k)

222 Spiritually, you're wrong on that point.

I doubt that. There's an event in one of the Gospels when someone tells Jesus that His mother and brothers are there to see Him, and He gestures to the believers around and says 'these are my mother and brothers' which is to say only fellow believers are family.

So...atomically, yeah we're probably all one big happy family.

I'm not finding that persuasive. Dogs and plankton and democrats are family by that standard, as are a great many inanimate things.

Seriously. 'family' means something. We shouldn't cheapen it in an effort to pretend our individual capacity for love is greater than it is (For example, just based on life expectancy over 3000 Americans and 60000 people died worldwide in the last 24 hours. Did you take time to comiserate with each of them? Neither did I).

Posted by: Methos at June 21, 2015 09:38 PM (ZbV+0)

223 @212 seamrog

Agreed and...
...Yes, you did.

Posted by: teej at June 21, 2015 09:39 PM (rZD6k)

224 The Peter Principle.

Oh, Oh! I get this one! The Prophecy of the Popes, right?!?

Posted by: Methos at June 21, 2015 09:39 PM (ZbV+0)

225 Religion and politics don't mix well (and AGW is very political)...one or both winds up losing major credibility when they meet...

Posted by: rc at June 21, 2015 09:33 PM (J4ZHs)
________

... Or gains credibility. Cognitive dissonance does that.

It should be noted that AGW (or climate change or whatever they're calling it these days) is a scam and that the Roman Catholic Church, as an organization and an institution, is not.

Posted by: FireHorse at June 21, 2015 09:40 PM (tn680)

226 "Resources do not get consumed, they get transformed. "

Damn fine statement.

Posted by: Ricardo Kill at June 21, 2015 09:41 PM (KsORK)

227 111
What if you're the offspring of a Catholic and a Baptist? Is it grandfathered in?

Posted by: All Hail Eris at June 21, 2015 08:39 PM (jR7Wy)

If you were baptized Catholic, you're always Catholic as far as the Church is concerned.

Posted by: Sean Bannion at June 21, 2015 08:41 PM (V+kmg)

I always thought I was a cowboy, but I just found out I was a ~~lesbian~~ Catholic.

Posted by: cthulhu at June 21, 2015 09:42 PM (EzgxV)

228 I'm not Catholic, but Pope John Paul II is a hero to me. He experienced the horrors of Communism first hand. He knew a government that was powerful enough to confiscate private property wouldn't stop there.

I view JPII,Margaret Thatcher, and Ronald Reagan as a holy triumvirate who consigned the scourge of Communism to the ash heap of history.

Somehow, I suspect if Francis were Pope in the 1980's, he'd be one of Reagan's biggest Cold War critics.

The Catholic Church, and the rest of the world would be well served by choosing a Pope from Eastern Europe.

Posted by: Mike at June 21, 2015 09:42 PM (c056A)

229 "Since the pope has now said gun manufacturers can't call themselves Christian, I guess the Vatican security forces will now be disarming and the popes security detail will likewise be unarmed when he travels abroad."

This is an hours old snippet by a Reuters reporter who called the Pope's speech "rambling". I would like to know whether he said gun manufacturers, arms dealers, or ordnance contractors.

Posted by: Chris Balsz at June 21, 2015 09:42 PM (8rRE+)

230 Look, I dig that this Pope is all progressive and whatnot, but the lecture on over-consumption really pisses me off. *burp*

Posted by: Mikey Moore at June 21, 2015 09:43 PM (Dwehj)

231 Might be one of those Leibowitz Canticles.

Posted by: Bertram Cabot Jr. at June 21, 2015 09:45 PM (W5DcG)

232 The Vatican guards only carry pikes anyway, right?

Posted by: otho at June 21, 2015 09:45 PM (d8udV)

233 Hiya teej,
Can't say I've spent any significant amount of time in Parkville. Is it nice?

Posted by: chemjeff at June 21, 2015 09:45 PM (2XMpf)

234 If you were baptized Catholic, you're always Catholic as far as the Church is concerned.

Posted by: Sean Bannion at June 21, 2015 08:41 PM (V+kmg)

Not quite. If you had a valid baptism its a one-time thing. You can render yourself excommunicant, but the method to bring you back in the fold won't include a second baptism.

Posted by: Chris Balsz at June 21, 2015 09:46 PM (8rRE+)

235 " but I just found out I was a Catholic."

You can get help for that.

Posted by: Ricardo Kill at June 21, 2015 09:47 PM (KsORK)

236 the pocky lips cometh.

Posted by: steinmetz at June 21, 2015 09:47 PM (CrYC8)

237 Charity is important yo.

My objection is in terms of scale and goal. If I donate to a soup kitchen, I am not going to solve global poverty, and I'm not even going to solve any individual poverty. I'm just going to get someone(s) through a day.

The only way to not be poor is to find some way to use your time that is of value to others so you can trade your output for theirs. There is no way those of you who have done so can be expected to figure it out for every other person on the planet. But you can get a few of those near you through a day to give them another chance to figure it out themselves.

As for those very far away, see Iraq, nation-building.

Posted by: Methos at June 21, 2015 09:47 PM (ZbV+0)

238 Oh no wait, I have been to Parkville. I went to the Nick Jake's that is there. I really liked that restaurant.

Posted by: chemjeff at June 21, 2015 09:47 PM (2XMpf)

239 Somehow, I suspect if Francis were Pope in the 1980's, he'd be one of Reagan's biggest Cold War critics.

Like the Berrigan brothers.

Posted by: Bertram Cabot Jr. at June 21, 2015 09:48 PM (W5DcG)

240 Why don't they just blame the albinos like they do in the movies.

Posted by: Dr. Varno at June 21, 2015 09:48 PM (TF10X)

241 199. Yes, it does. Unless you're Eastern Orthodox, separated via geopolitical traumas papered over by stupid (yes!) 'theological' arguments like the Filioque controversy. That and the even- more-explosive conciliar-vs-solo Peter argument are the only really compelling arguments in Christian ecclesiology and theology..

Posted by: LadyS at June 21, 2015 09:48 PM (xYNhJ)

242 Absolutely Methos.
My @203 (using a stupid sock) brought the same thing, different passage, up.

But I'll get off your side now so as not to make you look bad.
A) I subscribe to the young earth side of science and
B) I'm well aware of my status, or should I say lack thereof, around here.
Doesn't bother me. I can still spread my fone screen, skim for nics, and read the comments of those I respect.

Posted by: teej at June 21, 2015 09:49 PM (rZD6k)

243 Didn't know there so many LCMS types around.

We actually took over the ONT once, some years ago.

Which is weird, because I can't imagine most of my fellow pew people around here.

Posted by: Methos at June 21, 2015 09:49 PM (ZbV+0)

244 "229
"Since the pope has now said gun manufacturers can't call themselves
Christian, I guess the Vatican security forces will now be disarming and
the popes security detail will likewise be unarmed when he travels
abroad."

This is an hours old snippet by a Reuters reporter who called the
Pope's speech "rambling". I would like to know whether he said gun
manufacturers, arms dealers, or ordnance contractors.

Posted by: Chris Balsz at June 21, 2015 09:42 PM (8rRE+)"

I try very hard not to read any mainstream media descriptions of what the Pope said because going back to at least John Paul II, pretty much everything the mainstream media has reported about what the Pope said has been a lie, or to be more generous, incorrect or inaccurate. That is why I am grateful to Sean Bannion for doing the hard work of actually reading the damn thing and reading what knowledgeable people who have also read the encyclical have said about it.

Posted by: Obnoxious A-Hole at June 21, 2015 09:49 PM (QHgTq)

245 To be honest I have thought about maybe attending a local Catholic church here. But I have not been baptized at all, so I don't want to set the holy water on fire or something just by showing up. What is the correct procedure for an unbaptized person who attends mass?

Posted by: chemjeff at June 21, 2015 09:49 PM (2XMpf)

246 "Somehow, I suspect if Francis were Pope in the 1980's, he'd be one of Reagan's biggest Cold War critics. "

It's as if Someone made it safe for a Argentine lefty to be Pope.

Posted by: Chris Balsz at June 21, 2015 09:49 PM (8rRE+)

247 They's too much consumin' goin' on out they-ah!

Posted by: Zombie Sen. Ernest Hollings at June 21, 2015 09:50 PM (Dwehj)

248 The Book of Revelations isn't very Eco-friendly.

Posted by: Mike at June 21, 2015 09:50 PM (c056A)

249 The only way to not be poor is to find some way to use your time that is of value to others so you can trade your output for theirs.

Posted by: Methos at June 21, 2015 09:47 PM
________

And before that can happen - that is, the behavior you describe - one has to change one's attitude. Poor is a state of mind, and that's not easily changed.

Posted by: FireHorse at June 21, 2015 09:51 PM (tn680)

250 "This pope has very different ideas from the last one."

Posted by: Some archbishop in the movies at June 21, 2015 09:51 PM (TF10X)

251 142 If you were baptized Catholic, you're always Catholic as far as the Church is concerned.
Posted by: Sean Bannion at June 21, 2015 08:41 PM (V+kmg)

***

*Shrugs*
They can consider as they wish.

I was baptized, raised in and confirmed Catholic. 7 years as an Altar boy. CCD. The whole deal. I was on the edge after seeing all of the Church's hypocrisy in the 90s. 2 Catholic Weddings at which the Priest would not serve Communion (their choice) to non Confirmed Catholics in the early 2000s broke the Camel's back for me.

When they get back to basics such as Spiritual matters only and having their rhetoric match their actions, I may be back. Until then, as far as I am concerned, they are down one.
Posted by: ManWithNoParty, unperson from Free Market Jesus Paradise at June 21, 2015 08:52 PM (p7dd/)

Priest would not serve Communion (their choice) to non Confirmed Catholics in the early 2000s broke the Camel's back for me.
You mean non Catholics? Or Catholics that have not done thier Confermation.
Communion is a BIG deal, if you are from another religion you should show some respect, if I go to another non Catholic Church I don't take communion because I don't know if they treat it as the blood and body of Christ.

Posted by: Patrick From Ohio at June 21, 2015 09:52 PM (CxEX+)

252 We could sort all of this out if the Church would simply begin to sell Indulgences again.

Kind of like carbon credits.

Posted by: Mike Hammer, etc., etc. at June 21, 2015 09:52 PM (F2IAQ)

253 Yes, it does. Unless you're Eastern Orthodox, separated via geopolitical traumas papered over by stupid (yes!) 'theological' arguments like the Filioque controversy. That and the even- more-explosive conciliar-vs-solo Peter argument are the only really compelling arguments in Christian ecclesiology and theology..
Posted by: LadyS at June 21, 2015 09:48 PM (xYNhJ)

****

No, it absolutely does not. I am done. Have a good night.

Posted by: ManWithNoParty, unperson from Free Market Jesus Paradise at June 21, 2015 09:53 PM (mG3Qj)

254 Posted by: chemjeff at June 21, 2015 09:49 PM (2XMpf

Seek out Bannion for the best info.
But generally "participate but don't take communion"

Posted by: tsrblke (phone) at June 21, 2015 09:54 PM (s92xH)

255 What is the correct procedure for an unbaptized person who attends mass?

Posted by: chemjeff at June 21, 2015 09:49 PM
________

Attend, worship, pray, sing, and get to know people. Just don't take part in Communion.

(And don't sing too loud. Catholics tend to mumble their way through the hymns.)

Posted by: FireHorse at June 21, 2015 09:54 PM (tn680)

256 Oh also, the nearest Catholic church here is St. Francis Xavier. I suppose that means they are Franciscans. Is that considered one of the 'better' Catholic sects? Or is it just as bad as the Jesuits?

Posted by: chemjeff at June 21, 2015 09:55 PM (2XMpf)

257 "To be honest I have thought about maybe attending a local Catholic church here. But I have not been baptized at all, so I don't want to set the holy water on fire or something just by showing up. What is the correct procedure for an unbaptized person who attends mass?"

I'm an usher. I recommend you sit in the back row (which will be crowded) and follow the others.

http://catholicexchange.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/0bf400000000000000063560.png

When everybody stands up to file down the aisle for communion, keep your seat. That's the only time you'd be separated from us.

Posted by: Chris Balsz at June 21, 2015 09:55 PM (8rRE+)

258 Posted by: chemjeff at June 21, 2015 09:49 PM (2XMpf)

Yes Sean, I would also appreciate your position/advice on this!

Posted by: Hrothgar at June 21, 2015 09:55 PM (ftVQq)

259 Geez, I typed out a thoughtful comment, hit post, and my internet shit the bed. And I'm too drunk and lazy to re type it.

Takeaway line: Bannion, you're a good man. And way smarter than this knuckle dragger,

Posted by: DC in River City, temporary bachelor at June 21, 2015 09:56 PM (e+1S5)

260 245. Chemjeff, if you don't have a trustworthy Catholic friend to help you with the process, you'll need to call a parish priest near you and ask about instruction.RCIA- Rite of Christian Initiation for Adults. It's about a year long process, a 2-hour group class one night a week. It varies from great to atrocious, depending on where you live. There are alternatives, especially if you seek out a local parish with solid priests who will forgo the formal program. Some good ones do. You have to hunt. Where do you live, if I may ask? Unfortunately, it matters. I'll help if I can.

Posted by: LadyS at June 21, 2015 09:56 PM (xYNhJ)

261 I don't know if the town is nice but "the trio" is back together and playing a nice little "saloon" there occasionally.
In a strip mall on the main drag. I'm told the pizza is good. I really like the chicken parmesan sandwich.
The folks that come in are really nice.
I closed my old email acct and lost your addy in the process.
Oh the trio is Gary (True North front man), Steve who played bass on the first TN cd and lil old me.
Also playing a tiny little place closer to you but...

Posted by: teej at June 21, 2015 09:56 PM (rZD6k)

262 carbon credits/indulgences: good one.

Posted by: steinmetz at June 21, 2015 09:57 PM (CrYC8)

263 I have not read all comments so apologies if I repeat a point already made, but while I withhold judgment on any theological aspects of the encyclical which may depart from the deposit of faith/Magisterium, for now, I will say that any portions of it that repeat sacred dogmas are indeed infallible and require religious assent from all Catholics. Any novel theological propositions do not, and the aspects not dealing with the faith and morals for which popes receive divine assistance must be respectfully heard but may be disagreed with, even vehemently, by well formed Catholics. All three of them. Just a small point of clarification, possibly more later God willing.

Posted by: Tantumblogo at June 21, 2015 09:57 PM (GWDdA)

264 Posted by: chemjeff at June 21, 2015 09:55 PM (2XMpf

Not necessarily. Most churches are diocesan, names don't tell you much.

Posted by: tsrblke (phone) at June 21, 2015 09:57 PM (s92xH)

265 A very, very long time ago, when I was a kid, I was taught to be proud of ancestry and my religion.

Both were considered to be less than acceptable.

But, mostly, I was told to be proud to be American.

My grandparents weren't born here, but thank God, they came here.

As I grew up, I met people that weren't like me, ethnic or religion wise.

It never bothered me, because we were all proud of this country. Most had relatives that went off to strange lands to fight for our country.

We rarely ever gave it a thought.

The melting pot created something unusual.

Unity.

Now the political alchemist are boiling the melting pot.

They want to separate the ingredients which made that unity possible.

And most people care more about the fat assed K sisters.

Maybe things not worked for and earned are not valued.

I'm out. see ya manana

Posted by: seamrog at June 21, 2015 09:59 PM (lv2Sf)

266 " Oh also, the nearest Catholic church here is St. Francis Xavier. I suppose that means they are Franciscans. Is that considered one of the 'better' Catholic sects? Or is it just as bad as the Jesuits?"

Actually it just means they liked naming the Church after St. Francis Xavier, who was a Jesuit who opened up China. Could be Dominicans or Carmelites or Mexican missionaries running it today. Franciscans are named for St. Francis of Assisi.

The only difference between a Catholic Mass in New York or Perth or Hong Kong is the music, and the sermon. I pray you have a good preacher.

Posted by: Chris Balsz at June 21, 2015 09:59 PM (8rRE+)

267 LadyS, I live in NW MO

Posted by: chemjeff at June 21, 2015 10:00 PM (2XMpf)

268 Posted by: Chris Balsz at June 21, 2015 09:59 PM (8rRE+)

Oh, sorry. I did not know that. My apologies

Posted by: chemjeff at June 21, 2015 10:00 PM (2XMpf)

269 Posted by: teej at June 21, 2015 09:56 PM (rZD6k)

Hey, that is awesome. Parkville is quite close so that would be a great getaway some night.

My email is chem dot jeff at yahoo dot com

Posted by: chemjeff at June 21, 2015 10:01 PM (2XMpf)

270 Are there any actual Unitarians in da House?

I ask, 'cause, well, I went to Unitarian Sunday School throughout my Middle School years. Never went to service upstairs actually, just the Sunday school in the basement.

I remember in 7th grade, they spent that year teaching us about OTHER religions. And not one damn time did they ever tell us what Unitarians were supposed to believe.

I never knew, really. Had to look it up. And as far as I can tell, it doesn't actually even qualify as Christian.

Which might go a long way in explaining all the Jews there in church.

Which also goes a long way in explaining why we got bagels every Sunday after service, over thirty years ago, before bagels were cool.

Yeah, we were hipsters then, I guess.

Full disclosure: I'm a confirmed atheist (of the "weak atheism" variety) and always have been, but I've way outgrown being a dick about it (plus I have too many friends who are Believers, of one sort or another).

Posted by: Lewis at June 21, 2015 10:02 PM (Zv1gb)

271 LadyS, well maybe I ought to have the formal program, seeing as how my Christian instruction in the past has been sorely lacking :/

Posted by: chemjeff at June 21, 2015 10:02 PM (2XMpf)

272 Posted by: teej at June 21, 2015 09:49 PM (rZD6k)

Don't worry, everyone's welcome unless they're actively trolling, and even that gets a pass if it's funny.

Posted by: Methos at June 21, 2015 10:02 PM (ZbV+0)

273 "232
The Vatican guards only carry pikes anyway, right?

Posted by: otho at June 21, 2015 09:45 PM (d8udV)"

No. They carry halberds. Pikes are just long spears. Halberds also have a pole axe on one side and a hook to pull knights off their horses on the other side. Halberds are arms and at one time they were state of the art arms. Actually, the Swiss Guards are armed with the same type of small arms that the Swiss army uses, SIG pistols and assault rifles. If this report is true, which I doubt, it looks like arms making, like Medieval money lending, will be a trade reserved for Jews.

I am going to continue assuming that everything that mainstream journalists report about the Pope's statements are lies until they are confirmed by some reliable source.

Posted by: Obnoxious A-Hole at June 21, 2015 10:03 PM (QHgTq)

274 Lewis, I think most of the Unitarians at this point are at places like Daily Kos :/

Posted by: chemjeff at June 21, 2015 10:03 PM (2XMpf)

275 "Oh Jeez. Hey Ruth! The Catholics are fighting again!"

Posted by: Corona at June 21, 2015 10:03 PM (jNCu+)

276 Pardon my ignorance (Please), but what does LCMS mean?

Posted by: speedster1 on the ipad at June 21, 2015 10:03 PM (1brdf)

277 On a serious note, ever notice how much the Pope looks like Stan Laurel?

http://tinyurl.com/nkoruek

Posted by: Hepcat at June 21, 2015 10:04 PM (IeR2g)

278 Not at all, I'm not offended. Welcome!

Posted by: Chris Balsz at June 21, 2015 10:04 PM (8rRE+)

279 carbon credits/indulgences: good one.
Posted by: steinmetz
---------------------------

And a question worth asking. "If you believe that carbon credits are legitimate, then do you believe that the sale of indulgences is legitimate?"

Posted by: Mike Hammer, etc., etc. at June 21, 2015 10:05 PM (F2IAQ)

280 Posted by: Chris Balsz at June 21, 2015 09:59 PM (8rRE+)

We Catholics have had 2000 years to perfect confusing. I wouldn't apologize for being confused.

Posted by: tsrblke (phone) at June 21, 2015 10:06 PM (s92xH)

281 I think it's time to drag this old chestnut out:

"Insofar as I may be heard by anything, which may or may not care what
I say, I ask, if it matters, that you be forgiven for anything you may
have done or failed to do which requires forgiveness. Conversely, if not
forgiveness but something else may be required to insure any possible
benefit for which you may be eligible after the destruction of your
body, I ask that this, whatever it may be, be granted or withheld, as
the case may be, in such a manner as to insure your receiving said
benefit. I ask this in my capacity as your elected intermediary between
yourself and that which may not be yourself, but which may have an
interest in the matter of your receiving as much as it is possible for
you to receive of this thing, and which may in some way be influenced by
this ceremony. Amen."

[original at http://www.roger-zelazny.com /repository/agnostic.php sans space]

Posted by: cthulhu at June 21, 2015 10:06 PM (EzgxV)

282 I went to Unitarian Sunday School throughout my Middle School years.

Full disclosure: I'm a confirmed atheist
Posted by: Lewis

I always thought Unitarians were just atheists who wanted to go some place on Sunday. I think you just confirmed that.

Posted by: Bertram Cabot Jr. at June 21, 2015 10:07 PM (W5DcG)

283 nearest Catholic church here is St. Francis Xavier. I suppose that means they are Franciscans. Is that considered one of the 'better' Catholic sects? Or is it just as bad as the Jesuits?
Posted by: chemjeff at June 21, 2015 09:55 PM (2XMpf)

I would also see if you have any Eastern Rite Catholic Churches in your area, They are very old school and yes they even allow thier priest's to marry

Posted by: Patrick From Ohio at June 21, 2015 10:07 PM (CxEX+)

284 ManWithNoParty, if you're going away mad it's on me, and I beg you not to do that. The Internet isn't a great place for polemics. I can be too straightforward for those hurt by Church malfeasance, too, and I realize it.
Last word(s): anyone who believes that Christ is the son of God, will be judged by Him, and not by me. I believe I'm by the grace of God in the church which has held the fullness of his word, despite the sins of the hierarchy and my own bad example. I expect to be judged by that standard, and it is a frightening thing; I know myself. Even worse than knowing the state of the Church, whichI have studied at length. I hope and ask for mercy for all of us.

Posted by: LadyS at June 21, 2015 10:09 PM (xYNhJ)

285 56 The Pope is Catholic?

No, he's Jesuit.

Posted by: Fox2! at June 21, 2015 10:09 PM (brIR5)

286 The point is not the varied nuances of a nearly 200 page encyclical.

It is that millions of lo-fos are going to be influenced by the perceived idea ,enthusiastically reinforced by the media , that Pope Huffington endorses the 'science' of an AGW Armageddon and will be more receptive to accepting tyrannical solutions to the scam to control their lives.

His carelessness,cloistered gullibility and foolishness will result in worse lives and more liberty destruction for countless humans.

Posted by: LeBron Horowitz at June 21, 2015 10:09 PM (2DVgX)

287 >>>but what does LCMS mean?

In my industry, Liquid Chromatography Mass Spectrometry. In this context, I suspect it's something else.

Posted by: DC in River City, temporary bachelor at June 21, 2015 10:09 PM (e+1S5)

288 Nice of ya to say Methos but that's not really the case.
Like I said, no big deal.
I read the comments of those I respect.
This thread is giving me an eye ache due to size. Since all the threads went small earlier I have to spread the screen and bounce it left and right to read them comfortably, which makes it really uncomfortable.
Some of you are worth it.

chemjeff, I'm gonna shoot you a real short one.
You'll have my new one.

Posted by: teej at June 21, 2015 10:10 PM (rZD6k)

289 287 DC

Gee, thanks.

;-)

Posted by: speedster1 on the ipad at June 21, 2015 10:10 PM (1brdf)

290 DC, you are a chemist too?

Posted by: chemjeff at June 21, 2015 10:11 PM (2XMpf)

291 the Unitarians 'round these parts* are big on "social justice"

*just outside the wire of The Peoples' Republik of AnnArbor

Posted by: AltonJackson at June 21, 2015 10:11 PM (KCxzN)

292 Oops
Love each other fellow babies.

Posted by: teej at June 21, 2015 10:11 PM (rZD6k)

293 285 56 The Pope is Catholic?

No, he's Jesuit.
Posted by: Fox2! at June 21, 2015 10:09 PM (brIR5)

That's funny

Posted by: Patrick From Ohio at June 21, 2015 10:11 PM (CxEX+)

294 Catholics, really, I love you, but read that book that sits up there on the podium collecting dust.

Romans 10:9.

Then you don't have to worry about popes, or whether you'll go to hell if you masturbate or look at a pretty girl and then get hit by a bus before confession.

Posted by: Just some guy at June 21, 2015 10:11 PM (yxw0r)

295 LCMS = Lutheran Church Missouri Synod. aka the hardliners, not hippies. Can stretch two boxes of jello, 6 grapes, and a carrot to feed 40.

Posted by: Count de Monet at June 21, 2015 10:11 PM (JO9+V)

296 >>>No, he's Jesuit.

Gesundheit.

Posted by: Dr. Varno at June 21, 2015 10:12 PM (TF10X)

297
Isn't a canticles a kind of rooster, or something?

Posted by: Miss Teen U.S. America at June 21, 2015 09:31 PM (Dwehj)

Actually, it's some variety of weasel.

Posted by: IllTemperedCur at June 21, 2015 10:12 PM (+OXwX)

298 287 DC

And now I'll have to ask my daughter the chem PhD student what *that*'doohickey is.

Posted by: speedster1 on the ipad at June 21, 2015 10:12 PM (1brdf)

299 Pardon my ignorance (Please), but what does LCMS mean?

Lutheran Church, Missouri Synod.

As opposed to Evangelical Lutheran Church of America which is relatively leftist, or Wisconsin Synod which is typically stricter.

Posted by: Methos at June 21, 2015 10:13 PM (ZbV+0)

300 That encyclical treaded dangerously close to Gaia worship. Much of it read like a screed from Greenpeace.

Posted by: Insomniac at June 21, 2015 10:13 PM (mx5oN)

301 okay teej that sounds great, I can answer via email if that is more convenient for you

Posted by: chemjeff at June 21, 2015 10:13 PM (2XMpf)

302 "His carelessness,cloistered gullibility and foolishness will result in worse lives and more liberty destruction for countless humans."

He's made the full version available online for free, which is more than the New York Times does to "publish" its views

Posted by: Chris Balsz at June 21, 2015 10:13 PM (8rRE+)

303 295 CdM

Thank,you!!

Posted by: speedster1 on the ipad at June 21, 2015 10:13 PM (1brdf)

304 "Pardon my ignorance (Please), but what does LCMS mean?"

Lutheran Church Missouri Synod.

(As opposed to ELCA - Evangelical Lutheran Church of America. Whenever you hear of "Lutherans," the ELCA is what's meant most of the time.)

Posted by: FireHorse at June 21, 2015 10:13 PM (tn680)

305 Meh, he's nucking futs and I really don't care because I ain't Catholic.

Posted by: Gmac- Pulling in feelers in preperation... at June 21, 2015 10:13 PM (4CRfK)

306 Are there any actual Unitarians in da House?

I ask, 'cause, well, I went to Unitarian Sunday School throughout my Middle School years. Never went to service upstairs actually, just the Sunday school in the basement.

I remember in 7th grade, they spent that year teaching us about OTHER religions. And not one damn time did they ever tell us what Unitarians were supposed to believe.

I never knew, really. Had to look it up. And as far as I can tell, it doesn't actually even qualify as Christian.

Which might go a long way in explaining all the Jews there in church.

Which also goes a long way in explaining why we got bagels every Sunday after service, over thirty years ago, before bagels were cool.

Yeah, we were hipsters then, I guess.

Full disclosure: I'm a confirmed atheist (of the "weak atheism" variety) and always have been, but I've way outgrown being a dick about it (plus I have too many friends who are Believers, of one sort or another).

Posted by: Lewis at June 21, 2015 10:02 PM (Zv1gb)

Unitarian = Hard Left Crypto-Athiests

Posted by: The Decrypto Hat at June 21, 2015 10:14 PM (7YlUk)

307 >>>DC, you are a chemist too?

Negative. But I do work for a medical lab, so I have to stay current on the chem/lab technology. I wear a cape and fight the scourge of pill addiction. They pay me, but I'd do it for free.

Posted by: DC in River City, temporary bachelor at June 21, 2015 10:14 PM (e+1S5)

308 307 DC

You're a mensch.

However: No capes!

Posted by: speedster1 on the ipad at June 21, 2015 10:16 PM (1brdf)

309 DC, well that is good to hear

Posted by: chemjeff at June 21, 2015 10:16 PM (2XMpf)

310 We called the Unitarian Church the Church of the Holy Convenience.

A member once urged folks to join by saying, "You should join our church; we don't believe in anything!"

Posted by: eman at June 21, 2015 10:16 PM (MQEz6)

311 speedster, briefly, a liquid chromatograph/mass spectrometer can separate substances present in a complex liquid mixture, and identify each one by mass.

Posted by: chemjeff at June 21, 2015 10:16 PM (2XMpf)

312 Man, quite the thread.

Posted by: Ricardo Kill at June 21, 2015 10:17 PM (KsORK)

313 311 DC

Hunh, I kinda get that.

Thank you!!

Posted by: speedster1 on the ipad at June 21, 2015 10:17 PM (1brdf)

314 You wear a cape? Awesome.

Posted by: Just some guy at June 21, 2015 10:17 PM (yxw0r)

315 LadyS, not mad at all, just disagree with you. It happens. It will not ruin my day, and I certainly hope it will not put even a dent in yours. Be well.

Posted by: ManWithNoParty, unperson from Free Market Jesus Paradise at June 21, 2015 10:17 PM (QNcbF)

316 >>>However: No capes!

Missed opportunity for an Edna Mode sock.

Posted by: DC in River City, temporary bachelor at June 21, 2015 10:18 PM (e+1S5)

317 Lighten up, Francis!

Posted by: Sgt. Hulka at June 21, 2015 10:18 PM (lSpEL)

318 So the secret is to have Dustin Johnson chasing you rather than Payne Stewart or Geoff Ogilvy.

Posted by: Phil Mickelson at June 21, 2015 10:18 PM (nFdGS)

319 > What is the correct procedure for an unbaptized person who attends mass?

Drop $50 when they pass the plate.

Posted by: WASP at June 21, 2015 10:19 PM (Zf6/9)

320 317 DC

Was going for that, forgot to change/sock the nic.

:-/

Posted by: speedster1 on the ipad at June 21, 2015 10:19 PM (1brdf)

321 So the secret is to have Dustin Johnson chasing you rather than Payne Stewart or Geoff Ogilvy.
Posted by: Phil Mickelson at June 21, 2015 10:18 PM (nFdGS)

****

Uummm...Payne is kinda unavailable for comment, Phil.

Posted by: ManWithNoParty, unperson from Free Market Jesus Paradise at June 21, 2015 10:20 PM (p7dd/)

322 I always thought Unitarians were just atheists who wanted to go some place on Sunday. I think you just confirmed that.

Posted by: Bertram Cabot Jr. at June 21, 2015 10:07 PM (W5DcG)

Don't look at me - I was a teenager, and got dragged to Church by my mom.

That said, I think there's quite the element of truth to what you said.

I remember characterizing it as less about religion, and more about intelligentsia networking.

And bagels (with a healthy schmeer of cream cheese) galore.

Posted by: Lewis at June 21, 2015 10:20 PM (Zv1gb)

323 (As opposed to ELCA - Evangelical Lutheran Church of America. Whenever
you hear of "Lutherans," the ELCA is what's meant most of the time.)

That reminds me of the only funny thing I've ever heard from Garrison Keeler. He spoke of being from Minnesota where a mixed marriage is a LCMS groom and an ELCA bride.

Posted by: Methos at June 21, 2015 10:21 PM (ZbV+0)

324 >>>Was going for that, forgot to change/sock the nic.

Just blame pixy. Or autocucumber. That's what I do.

In other news, you're in Ohio, right? I forget where exactly, but I may be up that way soon (probably Columbus), if you're down to grab a beer.

Posted by: DC in River City, temporary bachelor at June 21, 2015 10:22 PM (e+1S5)

325 >>318 So the secret is to have Dustin Johnson chasing you rather than Payne Stewart or Geoff Ogilvy.

>>Posted by: Phil Mickelson at June 21, 2015 10:18 PM (nFdGS)

Man ... I feel bad for Dustin. That really sucked. I wonder if the people who paid $500 for those TaylorMade drivers are going to sue him? I think they have a case.

Posted by: ThePrimordialOrderedPair at June 21, 2015 10:23 PM (MYSVz)

326 324 DC

:-)

Yup, Dayton. Depending on your route, on the way to/from.

Happy to meet up. Maybe even see if there's a way to do that even if not a straight line.

Posted by: speedster1 on the ipad at June 21, 2015 10:24 PM (1brdf)

327 323 -

Ha! That is funny.

Posted by: FireHorse at June 21, 2015 10:24 PM (tn680)

328 Not ruining mine either. Thank you for the response. I could go into the frustration of post 294 with some Biblical references, and annoyance at the 500-year old slam that Catholics don't know the Bible.
Chemjeff, looks like you're in the KC/St. Joseph's diocese? I'll check further tomorrow if you respond. Hrothgar, if you are really interested and would trust a recommendation other than Bannion's, I know several priests locally who would be happy to talk with you.
Good night, all.

Posted by: LadyS at June 21, 2015 10:24 PM (xYNhJ)

329 A member once urged folks to join by saying, "You should join our church; we don't believe in anything!"
Posted by: eman at June 21, 2015 10:16 PM (MQEz6)

A lady I have known since Kindergarten basically took that point of view as she was telling me about her working to be a minister in that church.

I asked her what the point was, then. Much butthurt ensued.

Cheaper to join the Elks. They have a bar and actually do good work in the community.

Posted by: Kindltot at June 21, 2015 10:25 PM (3pRHP)

330 Oh, and to the fine folks,who answered my LCMS query, an extra Thank You b/c now I 'get' the Carrot Top joke.

Posted by: speedster1 on the ipad at June 21, 2015 10:27 PM (1brdf)

331 310 We called the Unitarian Church the Church of the Holy Convenience.

A member once urged folks to join by saying, "You should join our church; we don't believe in anything!"
Posted by: eman at June 21, 2015 10:16 PM (MQEz6)

It's funny because it's TRUE!

Posted by: Lewis at June 21, 2015 10:27 PM (Zv1gb)

332 192 pages? zzzz

anyway, it's not just the scientific ignorance in this "letter" that grates, but the world-socialism bandwagoning: he knows damn well what's coming up in the fall

now that Francis has joined those who politicize Man's Relationship to Nature Itself, the Internationale Left will joyously exploit it in perpetuity

they'll ignore the rest as religious whatever

Posted by: Feh at June 21, 2015 10:28 PM (Uk9e2)

333 >>>Yup, Dayton. Depending on your route, on the way to/from.

Ok. I think I've got your email. And an extra hour on the road is nothing.

Posted by: DC in River City, temporary bachelor at June 21, 2015 10:28 PM (e+1S5)

334 If it's the swohmome one let me know; I don't check that one very iften

Posted by: speedster1 on the ipad at June 21, 2015 10:29 PM (1brdf)

335 He is a leftist. Reference Fr D'escoto of Nicaragua.

Posted by: Smodley at June 21, 2015 10:29 PM (SzdTw)

336 You know the nice thing about being a lapsed Methodist? I don't give a flying fig about what some guy in a dress and a funny hat who lives in the Vatican has to say. Sod off swampy!

Posted by: Comanche Voter at June 21, 2015 10:29 PM (Sda6L)

337 Or often, even.

Posted by: speedster1 on the ipad at June 21, 2015 10:29 PM (1brdf)

338 Any news if the Banks will open in Greece? Any what time would that be eastern time.

Posted by: Patrick From Ohio at June 21, 2015 10:30 PM (CxEX+)

339 We called the Unitarian Church the Church of the Holy Convenience.

A member once urged folks to join by saying, "You should join our church; we don't believe in anything!"

Posted by: eman at June 21, 2015 10:16 PM (MQEz6)

Remember that teacher that brought her class to a sex toy factory on a school trip?

The school is located at a Unitarian "church".

Posted by: The Political Hat at June 21, 2015 10:30 PM (7YlUk)

340 >>now that Francis has joined those who politicize Man's Relationship to Nature Itself, the Internationale Left will joyously exploit it in perpetuity

>>Posted by: Feh at June 21, 2015 10:28 PM (Uk9e2)

I don't think anything could make Francis happier. He was known to be an anti-capitalist, latin american socialist tool from the beginning.

Posted by: ThePrimordialOrderedPair at June 21, 2015 10:31 PM (MYSVz)

341 338 Patrick

Why would a Greek care what time it is in our time zone?

:-)

Posted by: speedster1 on the ipad at June 21, 2015 10:31 PM (1brdf)

342 >>>334 If it's the swohmome one let me know; I don't check that one very iften

I think that is the one I have. Send me one at dcintowson at the yahoo email thingy.

Posted by: DC in River City, temporary bachelor at June 21, 2015 10:34 PM (e+1S5)

343 342 DC

Will do. Look for one from the hot Mail thingie.

Posted by: speedster1 on the ipad at June 21, 2015 10:34 PM (1brdf)

344 Unitarian Sunday school guy here again.

There was no Unitarian Sunday school during the summer, as my mom informed me that God took summers off.

Tongue firmly in cheek, naturally.

Posted by: Lewis at June 21, 2015 10:34 PM (Zv1gb)

345 This pope shares a lot with the SCOAMF, they both seem to be misunderstood a lot.

Maybe if we would just let them be clear.

I really miss John Paul II, now that was a Pope.

Posted by: Kreplach at June 21, 2015 10:35 PM (WVvzl)

346 341 338 Patrick

Why would a Greek care what time it is in our time zone?

:-)
Posted by: speedster1 on the ipad at June 21, 2015 10:31 PM (1brdf)
I have a Trojan Horse for sale.

Posted by: Patrick From Ohio at June 21, 2015 10:35 PM (CxEX+)

347 Dustin Johnson's girlfriend is a skank, she had his baby but they haven't decided to get married yet. He's off the coke, and partying hard, it will come for him later if his mind gets right.

Happy for Jordan!

Posted by: Seems Legit at June 21, 2015 10:35 PM (A98Xu)

348 Pope Francis has got to be one of the greatest trolls on the left ever. He's got them thinking he's anti-global warming and pro gay marriage.

Posted by: Draki at June 21, 2015 10:36 PM (pmv/9)

349 Apparently, the Pope is to (Catholic) as Caliph is to (Islam)

Is this true? I know of no other major religions that assume such superiority over the rest of the world's residents.

Posted by: Al-Kafirun at June 21, 2015 10:37 PM (Zf6/9)

350 343 Myself -> DC

Ooops, from mail.com addy.

I blame autocucumber... (This time)

Posted by: speedster1 at June 21, 2015 10:37 PM (1brdf)

351 I think Buck has done a great job covering this tournament. Just handled the Spieth interview really well.

Don't get the hate.

Posted by: Seems Legit at June 21, 2015 10:37 PM (A98Xu)

352
I think you mean happy for Speith.

Or I could be completely wrong.

Posted by: Rocket Train at June 21, 2015 10:38 PM (MDgS8)

353 "evokes the Shire"?

wtf

can we dispense with the cardigan pipe culture sentiment and get back to the hard reality that socialists, led by Obama, are, in the name of this debunked AGW scam, going to tax the shit out of what's left of America

and that this Hobbit Francis is making that politically easier

I'll grant that Laudato Si is Tolkienesque in its excruciating length

Posted by: Feh at June 21, 2015 10:38 PM (Uk9e2)

354 I have a Trojan Horse for sale.

How about a Horse Trojan?

Posted by: Bertram Cabot Jr. at June 21, 2015 10:39 PM (W5DcG)

355 g'night, 'rons

Posted by: AltonJackson at June 21, 2015 10:40 PM (KCxzN)

356 I have a Trojan Horse for sale.

How about a Horse Trojan?

Posted by: Bertram Cabot Jr. at June 21, 2015 10:39 PM (W5DcG)

Thank Obama for the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act!

Posted by: Sandra Fluke at June 21, 2015 10:40 PM (7YlUk)

357 you want to know what the Pope says?

He has a news bureau

http://www.vis.va/vissolr/index.php?lang=en

Posted by: Kindltot at June 21, 2015 10:41 PM (3pRHP)

358 342 DC

Sent.

Posted by: speedster1 at June 21, 2015 10:42 PM (1brdf)

359 So yeah, the whole time in Unitarian Sunday school, I do not believe I was once EVER told what Unitarian doctrine was.

Though my limited research indicates that they specifically disavow the divinity of Christ (and of the existence of any such thing as a Holy Spirit - thus "Unitarian", in direct opposition to "Trinitarian").

Which again probably explains the presence of all the (presumably left-wing) Jews in the church.

And the yummy, yummy bagels.

Posted by: Lewis at June 21, 2015 10:42 PM (Zv1gb)

360
The pope is that guy in rome right?

Unless I miss my mark.

Posted by: Rocket Train at June 21, 2015 10:43 PM (MDgS8)

361 Just as the Man was not made for the Sabbath, but the Sabbath was made for man, so Man was not made for the Earth but the Earth for Man. As I once argued with a local ecologist, Gaia doesn't care if our bay is filled with Blue Gill or algae as long as all the available energy gets used. We care, because we would rather eat Blue Gill than algae.

Posted by: Grump928(C) at June 21, 2015 10:44 PM (rwI+c)

362 283 thier priest's to marry

Not quite. The Eastern Rite Churches (even the Catholic Eastern Rite) will ordain a married man. Once you are ordained, though, you may not then marry.

Posted by: Fox2! at June 21, 2015 10:45 PM (brIR5)

363 Grump928 -- Inorite?

Posted by: Rocket Train at June 21, 2015 10:45 PM (MDgS8)

364 The Pope just reminds me why I prefer a secular government. Pure and simple.

I distrust religion less than politics ... right now.

Posted by: ScoggDog at June 21, 2015 10:46 PM (81zPX)

365 The Pope is now saying anyone who manufactures guns is not Christian???

But his body guards all carry guns?

Yeah continue to defend this guy? Be my guest.

Weasel Zippers

Posted by: Nevergiveup at June 21, 2015 10:46 PM (/tNwW)

366 The Pope is now saying anyone who manufactures guns is not Christian???

But his body guards all carry guns?

Yeah continue to defend this guy? Be my guest.

Weasel Zippers
Posted by: Nevergiveup at June 21, 2015 10:46 PM (/tNwW)

****

He is following the Apple Tim Cook path of telling investors that he doesn't want their money if they deny AGW.

Winning!

Posted by: ManWithNoParty, unperson from Free Market Jesus Paradise at June 21, 2015 10:49 PM (p7dd/)

367 Seriously folks....I'm not trying to convert anyone
here. Just offering another perspective. If Francis had left all the
bad science out, I'd probably be more OK with this document than I am.

Posted by: Sean Bannion at June 21, 2015 08:18 PM (V+kmg)

Seriously, this is a subject that the Pope should not have addressed at all, except perhaps to say that CAGW is a religious heresy, and a belief contrary to the basic tenets of Christianity. All you need to know about CAGW, aka "climate change" is that it is being promoted by leftists of all stripes, and that all the proposed "solutions" come straight from the Marxist play book.

Posted by: Alberta Oil Peon at June 21, 2015 10:51 PM (Gm0Ay)

368 49 Apparently, the Pope is to (Catholic) as Caliph is to (Islam)

Is this true? I know of no other major religions that assume such superiority over the rest of the world's residents.
Posted by: Al-Kafirun at June 21, 2015 10:37 PM (Zf6/9)

Al-Kafirun - I am not a Catholic, nor extensively schooled in Catholic doctrine, but I will answer as best as I'm able. Perhaps others more learned will chime in.

My answer to you would be no.

A caliph has absolute authority over all his subjects, both in the spiritual and temporal realms.

That is, he has the final word on matters of religion, and also on matters of government.

The Pope's realm of authority lies only in matters of religion. (Catholicism, to be specific)

If you're not familiar with the phrase, "Render unto Caesar that which is Caeser's, render unto God that which is God's", you should look it up.

Posted by: Lewis at June 21, 2015 10:52 PM (Zv1gb)

369 I could go into the frustration of post 294 with some Biblical
references, and annoyance at the 500-year old slam that Catholics don't
know the Bible.

****************

No offense intended, though obviously some given. For that, I'm sorry.

I was educated by and among Catholics for 16 years, through Ph.D. I doubt more than a few could name the synoptics, though a few might be able to quote chapter and verse of various papal writings.

"Titus" is a naughty giggly word.

It is what it is. You are still my brothers and sisters in Christ.

Posted by: Just some guy at June 21, 2015 10:53 PM (yxw0r)

370 That is, he has the final word on matters of religion, and also on matters of government.

The Pope's realm of authority lies only in matters of religion. (Catholicism, to be specific)

If you're not familiar with the phrase, "Render unto Caesar that which is Caeser's, render unto God that which is God's", you should look it up.

Posted by: Lewis at June 21, 2015 10:52 PM (Zv1gb)

The Holy See is an independent country, so the Pope does have temporal powers.

Of course many European countries such as England, &c. have their monarch as the head of their established church...

Posted by: I am Henry VII I am at June 21, 2015 10:54 PM (7YlUk)

371 you want to know what the Pope says?

He has a news bureau

http://www.vis.va/vissolr/index.php?lang=en

Posted by: Kindltot

There was an issue there about cross -denominational dialogue between Christians and Muslims to stop violence in the name of faith.

As a somewhat lapsed believing Christian, Islam is a heresay. Post (AD) the life of Jesus, they defy and deny the Gospel and the New Testament.

I realize this is frankly of the same piece as GWBush calling Islam a "religion of peace" (which it is not and never was), but a political statement to achieve a different end. But really.
It would be better if he said nothing at all. I realize he is not about to call the Faithful to War in this day and age, but he could be a little more articulate and thoughtful in response to the consistent pattern of murder of Believers by the followers of Islam.
And then earlier, he calls the Syriac Orthodox Church of Antioch a Church of martyrs.
Yes, he is quite the politician.

Posted by: Bossy Conservative....lost in America at June 21, 2015 10:54 PM (+1T7c)

372 The Pope on this matter is just as pathetic as that Half Black Cracker in the White House.

All the other issues that need to be addressed, and that bozo goes on about the global warming bullshit? Spare me.

Go do something worthwhile, like getting rid of more of those pedophiles you covered for for decades.

Posted by: Blano at June 21, 2015 10:55 PM (NHQQx)

373 In general ... When the defense of someone's comments are longer than the original comments ... I call bullshit.

But - most everyone has their institutions and organizations that they hold near and dear.

The rest of us are just Low Down Dirty Libertarians hooked on Open Borders and Free Pot. Period. End of story.

Posted by: ScoggDog at June 21, 2015 10:55 PM (81zPX)

374 Happy Father's Day to all dad's. To everyone else, this is the best day not to answer the door.

Posted by: dartist at June 21, 2015 10:59 PM (ahBY0)

375 I post this every Father's Day. Talk to your father, if you can. I wish I could talk to mine.
Chet Atkins, 'I Still Can't Say Goodbye'

http://tinyurl.com/o9gkzdq

Posted by: Mike Hammer, etc., etc. at June 21, 2015 11:00 PM (F2IAQ)

376 There's over 400 ppm of guilt.

Posted by: BourbonChicken at June 21, 2015 11:01 PM (+4uXG)

377 But - most everyone has their institutions and organizations that they hold near and dear.

Posted by: ScoggDog at June 21, 2015 10:55 PM
________

The institutions closest to my heart are the National Football League, those zany shenanigans on classic-rock radio stations' morning programs, and the ONT.

(None of which I'm able to enjoy right now, so I'm considering the perqs of being an anarchist.)

Posted by: FireHorse at June 21, 2015 11:04 PM (tn680)

378 ONT went up as I was typing.

Posted by: FireHorse at June 21, 2015 11:05 PM (tn680)

379 I don't really have a dog in this fight but ever since I read God's Soldiers I have a real disdain for the Jesuits.

Plus they used to beat the snot out of a close friend when he was in boarding school as a child.

The Communist angle really, really pisses me off.

Posted by: mpfs, Questioning My Sanity at June 21, 2015 11:05 PM (y+J3v)

380 >>>Talk to your father, if you can. I wish I could talk to mine.

I talked to my daddy today. Retirement agrees with him.

Posted by: DC in River City, temporary bachelor at June 21, 2015 11:06 PM (e+1S5)

381 Nice one Hammer

Posted by: dartist at June 21, 2015 11:06 PM (ahBY0)

382 I post this every Father's Day. Talk to your father, if you can. I wish I could talk to mine.

Chet Atkins, 'I Still Can't Say Goodbye'

Posted by: Mike Hammer

I know what you mean. My Father died 38 years ago. I can't quite accept it's been that long. But I got to spend a couple of hours today with my sons.

It was a pretty good day. Pretty good.

Posted by: Bossy Conservative....lost in America at June 21, 2015 11:07 PM (+1T7c)

383 295
LCMS = Lutheran Church Missouri Synod. aka the hardliners, not hippies.
Can stretch two boxes of jello, 6 grapes, and a carrot to feed 40.

Posted by: Count de Monet at June 21, 2015 10:11 PM (JO9+V)

I know a guy who stretched 5 loaves and 2 fishes to feed a lot of people.

Posted by: Caesar North of the Rubicon at June 21, 2015 11:50 PM (5f5bM)

384 Bannion,

I'm sorry, no. You're threading needles here, and what comes through is just your discomfort calling Francis what he is -- a fool. If AGW is not a dealbreaker, then redistributionism should be. He takes too many positions which are incompatible with common sense, incompatible with wisdom, and unworthy of your efforts to half-defend him.

The Strong Catholic position is not to point to the good things he says. People you cannot abide in politics say all sorts of good things, and you are not impressed. The Strong Catholic position is to loudly condemn this turn for the Church.

Posted by: Darrel Harb at June 21, 2015 11:53 PM (RZSl5)

385
I'm not catholic, so, to me, the Pope is just another guy with an opinion. And this topic is getting boring.

FWTS, the Pope does appear to have strong leftist leanings when it comes to economics (and the global warming thing is economic). Just Sayin'.

Posted by: Lily at June 22, 2015 12:10 AM (yj/Rg)

386
LeBron Horowitz (good sock, or new name?) @ 286 pretty much nails it:
"The point is not the varied nuances of a nearly 200 page encyclical.It is that millions of lo-fos are going to be influenced by the perceived idea ,enthusiastically reinforced by the media , that Pope Huffington endorses the 'science' of an AGW Armageddon and will be more receptive to accepting tyrannical solutions to the scam to control their lives.His carelessness,cloistered gullibility and foolishness will result in worse lives and more liberty destruction for countless humans."

Sean, you are obviously not the problem (with anything we face, actually). But. Given the distortion built in to the entire world's media (actually, on a few matters, incl. climate nonsense, Russian media is fairly reliable - a niceindex on the degradation of the western world), the Vatican is either 1) invisible and unheard - if not mocked, or 2) cited as authority for whatever pernicious, freedom-and-prosperity-killing idiocy is being pushed that day.

And, objectively speaking, for the Vatican to lend even its indirect general authority or respectability to this destruction of science, this lysenkoist jihad against all that is good in the developed west, is despicable. And inexcusable.

And we are decades (in some ways, more than decades, though people assume otherwise) past the point where environmental degradation of LASTING significance is simply ignored. That is, "trashing" our environment. And again, it is pristine scientific ignorance to assume that our impact, even when cosmetically dramatic, is of ANY longer term import to the planet. Even to associate common sense non-abuse of the environment with almost any aspect of contemporary "environmentalism" is a face-palming gift to the authoritarians.

Posted by: rhomboid at June 22, 2015 12:10 AM (QDnY+)

387 I'd like to approach it from a different angle. Yes, the science is
wrong. Yes, the theology is correct. Yes, the media will lie about whatever is said. It's the politics that are questionable. I don't mean the usual right vs left debate with this issue; but the macro church and state politics.

This is the first major document that I can remember that directly
attacks the moral and economic underpinnings of a specific policy that
has been embraced by our betters. The insanity of carbon credits has
always been plain to see, not to mention the abuse by organized crime
and disreputable regimes. I'm am happy to see our Church this clear
stance.

However, it is conspicuous as a lone destrier charging the battle line
of church and state relationships. Why is the Church demanding more
from Governments within a sphere of influence, charity, that belongs to
God - not Caesar?

The Church invented modern bureaucracy, perfecting the levers of power
long before the nation states unraveled their system of feudal
management by nepotism. The enormous power and wealth of modern states are driven by and grow with missions and responsibilities. A rasion
d'etre with a moral imperative back by "science" is a river of milk and
honey to modern state. The Church understands this, yet seems
willing to concede the point.

We know that the implementation of charity by secular authorities will,
at best, be inefficient in comparison to charity delivered with the fire
of the Holy Spirit. We also know, and may already see, that the raison
d'etre has become a raison d'etat for politicians, NGO's, and
Governments around the world. Continuing to accept that secular
transfers of wealth are inherently good for the recipient is an error.

The modern state can deliver resources on a historic scale. However,
this frequent;y misdirected, the blunt tool of secular power is not
charity. Smaller commitments of resources, delivered precisely with
passion are a better policy for the Church to pursue. Surrendering power to the secular world is not in the interests of the impoverished nor God's Church.

Posted by: Jean at June 22, 2015 01:14 AM (ztOda)

388 Pope Misanthrope I.

Posted by: Saint Peter at June 22, 2015 02:42 AM (DrrJX)

389 I think one of the major points a lot of people are missing is, that the Pope is addressing a "revolution of the individual" -- in other words, this is not a government/bureaucratic problem, rather a personal one. He comes out and say that bureaucratic answers to problems don't really work -- he's right.
Love God, love your neighbor, love yourself -- do unto others, but it starts with the individual. Part of that is to accept the part God gave you (Caitlyn Jenner hardest hit) and try to be a good person (not a nice one, a good one -- this would mean going out and actively doing something on your own).
He specifically calls for that...and he also makes the statement "you don't have to agree with me about the science, but consider the morality". You make up your own mind as to what the way forward is...but acknowledge there is a problem and find your way to fix it, which doesn't involve imposing your own will on somebody else or on something else -- don't subjugate.
I'm not so sure that he isn't media savvy -- this forces the dialogue, at least for those willing to force it. I think this guy knows he'll be misquoted, cherry picked, misunderstood; I think he's very clever with this (hey, we're talking about it, aren't we?) Of course the left will ignore the things that don't fit with their world view; just as they'll miscast the things that do. Of course the right will get butthurt and defensive (because they aren't reading it for comprehension either) -- the Pope could care less about political sides; that isn't his job. But, but....those who would follow his lead are being called to start demanding of others that maybe they quit caring about Team A and Team B, and question their own bias, and then the bias of others -- maybe find that middle path, one that does not involve politics and is centered on the individual exercising their free will to make up their own minds.
I don't see this as being collectivist -- but he does like to push buttons.

Posted by: unknown j. at June 22, 2015 08:05 AM (0EjYp)

390 Good thread to have a lot of debate/discussion. All members of any church would be well served to so discuss their church beliefs, and their origins. Power tends to corrupt, and the more centralized the power, the harder it is for individuals to hold their own belief. More westernized Catholics tend to be more willing to defy church doctrine, whether encyclicals or ex cathedra doctrine. That is a good thing, in my book. Americas to the south of us are more vulnerable, more socialist, more Catholic.

I relate it to the tea party, in a country being federalized by the establishment. Individual rights (God given, not government conditionally allowed) and individual liberty must be the preeminent, self evident truth. The more we study the Bible or constitution on our own, the freer we will be.

The truth shall make you free.

That said, the Pope thing about "we are all God's children/family" is not from the Bible as I read it. While most think the "Lord's Day" is Sunday (some recognize Saturday as the seventh day), it is really a time in the future where the Lord would return and judge. We live in "man's day", where man chooses whom to serve ... oh it may be the devil and it may be the lord ... as Bob Dylan would later sing. "God's people" are those that choose God, or at least choose "good". (even good Gentiles had the law written in their heart, and were "saved") But there are evil ones as well, which should be obvious.

Jesus Christ is the only head of the "one true church", and he is somewhere above, at the right hand of God. Every man in or out of any church has direct access. I'm outside any church now, or even any hard core belief that the Bible is perfect. From my perch, the parallels between Christian and American are obvious. Limitations on group power in either are essential to liberty for the individual. Catholics consolidate more power at the "federal" level than any other Christian group, as I see it. Confessions are to priests, doctrine is set by Popes, wealth goes to the Vatican.

The words of the founders of both "constructs" started to be torn apart before the ink dried. Jesus died mostly alone, rejected, and Paul said most of his followers had left him, and he was imprisoned. Much of current doctrine is a mixture of pagan and biblical. For instance, Easter, face east, worship the sun rising, Ashtar ... pagan stuff. How do you get three days and three nights between Friday sunset and Sunday morning? Why call it Easter? Why are there bunnies?

In parallel, our US founders have also been defamed and rejected by the left, as old white men with slaves, being replaced by liberal judges writing a new living constitution. The EPA would reverse even the Magna Carta.

So discussions here of those original things, is a good thing, even if it only results in better understanding of disagreements. The Bible and constitution have to be the basis for those respective conversations, with individual insights built on those foundations. Or so our forefathers might suggest.

amen lol

Posted by: Illiniwek at June 22, 2015 09:46 AM (8bK1p)

391 Francis is just upset because he can't institute Pope-ria Law.

Posted by: Lurking in the Wilderness at June 22, 2015 05:44 PM (1Y+hH)

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