1 first

2 Woot, been a while since I got one of those.

Now, what are we talking about?

3 Please use the new cover sheet for all your TPA reports.

4 It's a trap. Now dems will campaign that R's tried to pass this...blah blah blah

5 The NYT article in the sidebar has a map showing the trade flows to and from the TPP countries. My cursory look says that well more than 90% of the dollars involved are already part of a multilateral (NAFTA, CAFTA) or bilateral trade treaty. And of course all the countries are in GATT. So what problem is it, exactly, that TPP is intended to solve that isn't already addressed somewhere else?

6 Nobody knows what the Hell just happened. Non cogitamus ergo nihil sumus

7 They are doing their damnedest to keep people in the dark with all these BS acronyms and multiple bills that are interlocking.


back when we still had people in congress that gave a shit for the voters we would have a treaty for trade deals. The treaty would go to the Senate for ratification. And then the implementing bills would go to congress as directed by the treaty.


We quit doing that some time ago.

8 (Post in progress; just wanted to get this up while I write the rest of it.)

So this is just a stomp-gap post?

9 When do they vote on TIT and ASS?

10
Now, what are we talking about?
Posted by: Methos
...............................
After 100 comments, whatever we want, right?

11 trust in our betters in DC is gone. No more shit from the cool kids.

12 Can't show the bill to the peasants. That is reason enough to vote it down. The Manchurian Candidates from Cuba support it.

13 I understand the theory and reason for TPA- Fast Track authority- BUT NOT WITH THIS PRESIDENT!

14 Irrespective of the merits, GOP flubbed this.

Politically stupid to ram it thru now. Should hold town halls to persuade GOP voters.

15 Yet we needed the fucking Democrats to save is from this shit.Yay majorities!

16 As for that Federalist article it appears to be missing a lot of stuff that has gone out before, like all the bad shit in TPP one of which OBama has already admitted to.


I do not trust that article about myths.

17 Pelosi is right. Ryan is wrong. Up is down. Down is up.

18 I don't understand any of this, but I'm sick of these guys trying to secretively ram through huge sweeping bills, period.

19 TP for our bungholes?

20 Ogolfeline is a limp-wristed commie SCOAMF... why give him anything?

21 Stunning Defeat

I like those words

-
If I were to go full optimist I'd think, Obama lost, Boehner lost, and McConnell lost. What's not to love?

22 I don't understand any of this, but I'm sick of these guys trying to secretively ram through huge sweeping bills, period.
Posted by: Kensington at June 12, 2015 02:56 PM (7Kbxu)

bingo

23 From what I've read unions have pretty much promised the D congress critters no money next year and primaries should the vote this through.

24 The fast track thing is just an agreement between congress and the president that congress won't try to amend or alter the Trans Pacific Partnership (TPP), right?

and Congress would still get a veto vote on whatever Obama puts in the TPP, right?

and the democrats just rejected the fast track authority by voting down the adjustment part, right?

25 I am stronger in favor of TA

26 If I were to go full optimist I'd think, Obama lost, Boehner lost, and McConnell lost. What's not to love?
Posted by: The Great White Snark at June 12, 2015 02:57 PM (XUKZU)

Amen

27 At this point I don't trust any one in either party.

Boehner and McConnel have got to go.

Having the GOP controlling both chambers has been a disaster.

It's actually worse than when they only controlled 1/3 of 1/3 of the government.

28 Wait a year and a half for the bastard to leave.

29 The ppl arguing for TPP cannot resist insulting and blaming voters for resisting. Disastrous politics.

30 You down with TPP?
(You can't read me)
Who's down with TPP?
(The GOPe)

31 9 When do they vote on TIT and ASS?
Posted by: Roy at June 12, 2015 02:55 PM (VndSC)
---
it passed on unanimous consent

32 When the TPP passes, will TP become as scarce here as it is in Venezuela?

33 Ladies and gentlemen, may I present the federal government's new logo:

A black box.

34 Pelosi is right. Ryan is wrong. Up is down. Down is up.

-
White is black.

35
I haven't followed this closely and Ipresume bullshit because Obama, but I am startled by the "conservatives" in the last thread who oppose free trade.

Free trade is good. This is axiomatic and also true. It doesn't have to be "fair", protectionism hurts the protectionist.

*clicks heels, about faces, and returns attention to The Rack*

36 So they passed just the TIP?

37 Let them make EVERYTHING PUBLIC and wait a week or 2 so people can read it and then let's have a vote. Hey what a novel democratic idea?

38 The next staffer or politician who proposes an acronym for a bill, especially a cutsie one, gets summarily executed wherever they stand. If they name a bill something that is the Alice in Wonderland opposite of what it really does, we also burn their damned house down.

39 Secret laws, the American way.

40 Are secret bills part of that new transparency thing?

41 5

Their is a component in the trade bill that opens immigration. THAT is what Obama is trying to get. Pretty much open borders from what has been leaked out.

42 Pelosi is right. Ryan is wrong. Up is down. Down is up.

-
White is black.
Posted by: The Great White Snark at June 12, 2015 02:59 PM (XUKZU)

----

Men are girlz.

43 And what happened to the original reports that the fast track bill would allow these agreements to be approved by Obama on his own and then they would go into effect and to stop it the Senate had to defeat the agreement by a 2/3 majority?


That was widely reported and you don't hear about it anymore.

44 One myth is that the sooper-dooper secret TPP bill is in a House basement room inside a Gore-approved lockbox.

45 *sniffs deeply of New Thread Scent*

*goes and vomits on clean carpet*

46 No idea, but when I see "Stunning Defeat" and Obama in the same headline I figure it can't be all bad.

47 I am all for stopping anything that Boner is trying to 'fast-track.' He can go over to the oval office and blow his hero on his own time.

48 but I am startled by the "conservatives" in the last thread who oppose free trade.

Free trade is good. This is axiomatic and also true. It doesn't have to be "fair", protectionism hurts the protectionist.

*clicks heels, about faces, and returns attention to The Rack*
Posted by: Bandersnatch, Lord Guardian, Protector, and Moisturizer to The Rack at June 12, 2015 02:59 PM (JtwS4)


Yes Free Trade Good, BUT WE DON'T TRUST FREDO. NOT NOW, NOT LATER, NOT NEVER, NO WAY, NO HOW, NEVER!

49 The myth about TPP is that you need to use more than one square.

50 I believe Jeff Sessions more than I believe Scott Lincicome. Not that Linicicome is a bad guy, just that I'm more on the Sessions side of things.

Cherry picking one part of the article:

According to the anti-TPA script, the TPP is so secret that nobody knows what's in it, and-much like Obamacare legislation-nobody, not even Congress, will know what's in it until the agreement is passed into law

Then...

Second, USTR has provided "access to the full negotiating texts for any Member of Congress, including for Members to view at their convenience in the Capitol, accompanied by staff members with appropriate security clearance."

So if you need an appropriate security clearance to look at the text, how is it not secret?


This whole thing stinks, it requires me to trust Boehner and McConnell, and Obama's all over it. So that's three strikes as far as I'm concerned.

51 When the myth becomes fact... pass the myth

52 Comment of the day from the NYT article: "This country does not deserve Barack Obama, least of all Democrats.
Finally we get a brilliant, wise, thoughtful President who does not see
issues through a partisan lens, but always does what he knows to be best
for this country, and what does he get in return? Incessant opposition,
misjudgment and insults. What short memories people have! What
stupidity reigns in this country"

Well, at least we agree on the last sentence ...

53 *clicks heels, about faces, and returns attention to The Rack*

Posted by: Bandersnatch, Lord Guardian, Protector, and Moisturizer to The Rack at June 12, 2015 02:59 PM (JtwS4)

*averts eyes* My I say the glisten magnificently.
*slowly backs out of the room*

54 Pretty much open borders from what has been leaked out.
Posted by: wrg500 at June 12, 2015 03:00 PM (S+el1)

----

My understanding is it gives INS the same regulatory rule making that the IRS, EPA, OSHA etc currently enjoy without needing legislation from Congress.

55 I'm just a bill,
I'm just a bill.
Passing secretly on Capitol Hill....

56 This whole thing stinks, it requires me to trust Boehner and McConnell, and Obama's all over it. So that's three strikes as far as I'm concerned.
Posted by: VA GOP Sucks at June 12, 2015 03:01 PM (eytER)

Exactly

57 Where's the trust?

58 >>>(Post in progress; just wanted to get this up while I write the rest of it.)

Thread winner. Take the rest of the week off.

59 The problem I see with the advocates position is that their arguments is a series of shell games:

'The bills are good. Period. We can't tell you why because the bills need to be kept secret. But they're not secret after we pass them. So don't worry your pretty little head. Besides you're not against FREE TRADE, are you? You'd have to be a commie to be against FREE TRADE, right?'

...to say nothing of Paul Ryan's schizophrenic breakdown.

60 35 Posted by: Bandersnatch, Lord Guardian, Protector, and Moisturizer to The Rack at June 12, 2015 02:59 PM (JtwS4)


When was the last time one of these trade deals was "real" free trade? The US has got screwed on these deals every time for the past 30 or more years.

61 This whole thing stinks, it requires me to trust Boehner and McConnell, and Obama's all over it. So that's three strikes as far as I'm concerned.
Posted by: VA GOP Sucks at June 12, 2015 03:01 PM (eytER)

Exactly

62 This series of bills may be a great thing, or a catastrophic failure. All I know for sure is that it appears the establishment of both parties is trying to force it through congress without letting people see or fully comprehend the second and third order effects. If that's the case, and I'm expected to just trust Obama, boehner and McConnell, then fuck them all, I'm glad it failed, and I hope to see more bills fail in congress until I see some leaders I trust.

63 It's in a lockbox your Social Security money.

64 I did a quick read of the TPA bill...

I did NOT see anywhere in that bill, where the TAA had to be in effect for the Prezzy to get fast track authority...

If someone can find that... please let me know... I'd LOVE to be wrong...

65 Ladies and gentlemen, may I present the federal government's new logo:A black box.
Posted by: Tex Lovera at June 12, 2015 02:58 PM (wtvvX)
---
i can be your model for the logo

66 Racism at its worst...

best?

Oh hell. I'm just so confused.

67 Fuck fast track.

When TPP is ready for us to see, then it can be debated and, if necessary, be amended.

Do you really trust this asshole in the White House to negotiate something that will HELP Americans?

Yeah.. me either.

68 Well, at least one question was answered. We now know what was in Vincent and Jules's brief case, the true text of the TTPLGBTXYZ agreement.

69 Free trade is good. This is axiomatic and also true. It doesn't have to be "fair", protectionism hurts the protectionist.

I like free trade. I don't think that's what this is.

Hell, just Wednesday I heard TFG talk about how he needed all of this to pressure countries like Malaysa into going along with the US on global warming. Don't comply with US requirements on carbon whatever, don't get trade access.

Sure don't sound free to me.

70 They never could make the case of why now and why the rush. There are no pressing trade issues. The DC establishement has a huge credibility problem and it will only worsen as the butt-hurt losers drop dimes and make statements about idiot voters and critics. Screw them.

71 My god for once I agree with Nancy Pelosi!

72 34 Pelosi is right. Ryan is wrong. Up is down. Down is up. - White is black.
Posted by: The Great White Snark at June 12, 2015 02:59 PM (XUKZU)
---
Word homie

73 The house is not involved in approving treaties. This is an attempt to by pass Constitutional requirements for treaty approval. TPP will achieve this by pass.

74 >>No idea, but when I see "Stunning Defeat" and Obama in the same headline I figure it can't be all bad.


OK, *that* I understand.
Agree wholeheartedly.

75
My understanding is it gives INS the same regulatory rule making that the IRS, EPA, OSHA etc currently enjoy without needing legislation from Congress.



Posted by: fixerupper at June 12, 2015 03:01 PM (8XRCm)


And may very well give the EPA more power.... we don't know, because we have not seen the TEXT of the Treaty itself...

76 "The fast track thing is just an agreement between congress and the president that congress won't try to amend or alter the Trans Pacific Partnership (TPP), right?

and Congress would still get a veto vote on whatever Obama puts in the TPP, right?"


That's my understanding. Fast-track means that a treaty is presented to the Senate as a take-it-or-leave-it vote, no amending permitted. Otherwise the Senate could amend any treaty that has been presented, which would mean that the amendments would have to be sent out to the other signatories to the treaty for their approval.

With that I think it is clear why most presidents have sought fast track authority.

77 @62 .... said it better than I did. Preach it brother

78 My guess is the TPP TAA bill is actually a list of ransom paymenys to whoever hacked the OPM.

79 "the democrats just rejected the fast track authority by voting down the adjustment part, right?"

Technically, the fast track authority is still alive, but the Senate would have to agree to do it without the worker adjustment assistance, which everyone is saying the D senators would never agree to, so it won't get brought up in the Senate. I'm not 100% confident on that chain of events. I could see enough of the Senate D's getting adjustment assistance put through in some other way that they could come around and give Ol' Mitch the votes to bring it to the floor.

And ironically, or maybe diabolically cynically, Boehner killed it by insisting that the adjustment assistance be paid for with cuts from Medicare. Honestly, everyone had to know that would never happen. The D's were willing to cut Medicare to pay for Obamacare, but that was a one-time fluke that squeaked by by a couple of votes when they had the leadership. There is no way that a majority of D's was ever going to vote to cut Medicare, so Boehner actually killed worker adjustment assistance, which probably killed fast-track trade promotion authority (although I still would shoot it with a silver bullet in addition to the stake in the heart), which may have killed TPP.

80 Andrew McCarthy's stumping for TPA really undercuts the deep respect I have for him: on the one hand, he's argued that Obama has committed impeachable offenses, but here he thinks that it's no problem for Congress to give him enhanced authority above and beyond the Constitutional authority he already has and has systematically abused.

81 I did a quick read of the TPA bill...

I did NOT see anywhere in that bill, where the TAA had to be in effect for the Prezzy to get fast track authority...

If someone can find that... please let me know... I'd LOVE to be wrong...
Posted by: BB Wolf at June 12, 2015 03:02 PM (qh617)

The whole thing has to do with Senate and Congress Rules. I don't get what you have a problem with? Everyone in the Press, In the White House, in the Congress are all calling this a stunning Defeat for Fredo. THAT I believe. Chill

82 "If I were to go full optimist I'd think, Obama lost, Boehner lost, and McConnell lost. What's not to love?"

Bela Pelosi also seems to have lost.

She tried to be on both sides of the fence simultaneously.

There will be some bad blood and long memories from that.

Debbie Washerwoman-Putz (remember her?) has been wanting to shiv Pelosi in the back for a while now.

83 okay post completed.

84 The chair is against the wall.

85 Try us, motherfuckers. We are ready to form another party and consign
you corrupt, racist, backwards, uneducated money-grubbing dolts to the
fate of the Whigs.

So. Much. This.

86 So if you need an appropriate security clearance to look at the text, how is it not secret?
---
arrow us to exprain

87 myths-about-trade

That's pretty much all bullshit. When you allow the products of foreign slave labor to be sold here without sufficient tariffs to offset the wage disparity, you are guaranteed to destroy jobs here. The people who don't lose their jobs get some cheaper products, but the rest wind up on the dole voting (D) out of practical necessity. If we ever want to right our economy all these trade deals that run at a deficit need to be ended.

If you want to trade with countries with similar standards of living, that's another matter, and has merit.

As for all the empty arguments about legal authority, the central issue here is that Congress has the power today to put a stop to TPP. Having given up their necks today, it is unlikely they will find the will to do their duty to the American people on any future play-pretend vote.

88
14 Irrespective of the merits, GOP flubbed this.

Politically stupid to ram it thru now. Should hold town halls to persuade GOP voters.
Posted by: Y-not on the phone at June 12, 2015 02:56 PM (ZxV1A)



Hahaha. They will never hold townhalls of any significance ever again. They know that their constituents are pissed at them and will get an earful and that might hurt their chance of getting reelected if video shows up of them getting schooled by one of the peasants.

89 Limbo (Latin limbus, edge or boundary, referring to the "edge" of Hell) is an afterlife condition of those who die without being assigned to the Hell of the Damned

90 62 This series of bills may be a great thing, or a catastrophic failure. All I know for sure is that it appears the establishment of both parties is trying to force it through congress without letting people see or fully comprehend the second and third order effects. If that's the case, and I'm expected to just trust Obama, boehner and McConnell, then fuck them all, I'm glad it failed, and I hope to see more bills fail in congress until I see some leaders I trust.

Posted by: Grimaldi at June 12, 2015 03:02 PM (LbSW2)


THIS (X1000).

91 okay post completed.

And it's fucking GLORIOUS.

92 Let them make EVERYTHING PUBLIC and wait a week or 2
so people can read it and then let's have a vote. Hey what a novel
democratic idea?

Posted by: Nevergiveup at June 12, 2015 02:59 PM

As far as I'm concerned, the fact that this aberrant pile of steaming pighshit ever got to a vote in either house of Congress is reason enough to load all 535 of the worthless sellouts on a bus, add Choom Boy, and trot them off posthaste to San Quentin or Dannemora.

I won't insist on the statutory punishment for treason: 75 years in solitary, no parole, will do.

93 (Post in progress; just wanted to get this up while I write the rest of it.)
---
i'm having unsettling thoughts about what the 'this' might be thats getting 'up'

94 How many of you have read TPA?

TPA text: http://1.usa.gov/1Hva6zK

95 64 I did NOT see anywhere in that bill, where the TAA had to be in effect for the Prezzy to get fast track authority...



If someone can find that... please let me know... I'd LOVE to be wrong...

Posted by: BB Wolf at June 12, 2015 03:02 PM (qh617)

TAA was supposed to be a sweetener to get the Democrats to vote for the Fast Track part. It was basically welfare for displaced workers. The thought was that if TAA did not pass then TPA would not pass either.

96 ACE best most concise Post yu ever had and I agree 100% ( well it was a quick read, but what I caught I agree with) especially the part about WE DON'T TRUST THE GOP anymore. Ribid! ( who knows what that reference is to?)

97 Posted by: Nevergiveup at June 12, 2015 03:04 PM (/tNwW)

Read.... the .... bill....

Now, it will need to go back to the Senate, unless both Houses call for a conference report...

But the Bill itself (from a quick read)... which just passed the House... gave O fast track authority...

Now... if THAT passes the Senate cleanly... which it very well may....

Its a done deal...

Our only real hope was to stop this in the House.... as the Senate has been willing to cede their power to the O for quite awhile now.

98

I like free trade. I don't think that's what this is.

Hell, just Wednesday I heard TFG talk about how he needed all of this to pressure countries like Malaysa into going along with the US on global warming. Don't comply with US requirements on carbon whatever, don't get trade access.

Sure don't sound free to me.

Yeah yeah yeah yeah. I was defending actual free trade.

I presume that if Obama uses those words in that order he's lying and trying to achieve some other leftopian objective.

99 It shouldn't be this hard. Suspicious. And also anything Obama wants cannot be good for America.

100 What makes me smile is that it is Obama's own party that has screwed him over.

101 This is off-topic but does anyone have a picture of Colin Powell depicted as a gorilla that was displayed during the anti-war protests of the early 2000s? I think zombie had a picture of it on his site but he's got loads of stuff and I can't find it there.
I'm trying to counter this quote by Powell that says Republicans are all racist that every liberal puke I know has been posting on facebook.

102 Roll the Cubans and send them home.

103 Thank God you stupid nut cases are at the margins of the GOP, fooled by the noise you create in your internet echo chambers.

We don't care if you leave the party BUT if you are not committed to our party, BUTT OUT of our primary selection process. Start your own Pinhead Party.

104 Seminal, Ace.

105 Posted by: BB Wolf at June 12, 2015 03:08 PM (qh617)

OK have it your way, but you seem to be the only one who thinks that. Sigh

106
Ponder this.

The horde has much more talent, smarts, gumption and character than all Three Branches of Government combined.

What a shit stinking cluster fuck of a deal this must be if *we* cant make heads or tails of it.

Smell test status. FAIL

107 Uh-oh. Ace is threatening to go Democrat on us again.

108 It's one of the few times I agree with my Massachusetts Moonbats Rep Capuano, Ed Markey & Lizzy Warren!


Sorry to post & run, but I've got to go to two drugstores to fill prescriptions! It's August 22 law that zero pushed & made effective October 6, 2014. I hate zero & I don't hate anyone.

109 Have we ever lied to you?

- Barky, Boner, McTurtle, Pelosi, Reid

110 Posted by: Vic We Have Nobody to vote for at June 12, 2015 03:07 PM (GpgJl)

If I understand this correctly...

Senate passed a bill with TAA and TPA in it... sent it to the House...

House split it... TAA failed... TPA passed.

Now, all that has to happen is Senate to vote on the already Passed TPA from the House.... which WILL Pass in the Senate IMO....

111 Seminal, Ace.
Posted by: flounder at June 12, 2015 03:09 PM (ecDRv)

----

**tosses Ace a tissue**

112 Generally, speaking, I don't support anything from the government that does not give me details.

/so, when are they going to come out of the Star Chamber and talk to us peons? Or is that no longer necessary?

113 85 Try us, motherfuckers. We are ready to form another party and consign you corrupt, racist, backwards, uneducated money-grubbing dolts to the fate of the Whigs.

Yes. My only contention is why you do not feel they are "trying" you now? If what they've done in the last 6 months alone isn't enough to get a 3rd party initiated, then I have to wonder whether it will EVER happen.

114 Free trade means more free shit, right?

115 Amen, Ace! Speak truth to power!

116 I did NOT see anywhere in that bill, where the TAA had to be in effect for the Prezzy to get fast track authority...



If someone can find that... please let me know... I'd LOVE to be wrong...

Posted by: BB Wolf at June 12, 2015 03:02 PM (qh617)

It's not there. It's just the assumption people are making about the D senators, that without TAA they would never vote for TPA. TPA has gone over to the Senate now, and it needs some D votes to pass. As I said above, I'm not 100% confident all those assumptions are true.

117 76 That's my understanding. Fast-track means that a
treaty is presented to the Senate as a take-it-or-leave-it vote, no
amending permitted. Otherwise the Senate could amend any treaty that
has been presented, which would mean that the amendments would have to
be sent out to the other signatories to the treaty for their approval.



With that I think it is clear why most presidents have sought fast track authority.

Posted by: Mikey NTH - The Outrage Outlet - Home of the Vulgar Boatman! at June 12, 2015 03:04 PM (hLRSq)


That is not the info that was originally put out. What was said back months ago was that Obama would approve it on his own and if Congress did not like it the Senate would have to defeat it by a 2/3 vote. The exact opposite of what te Constitution says for a treaty.

118 >>>>Paul Ryan argues that there's no sense blocking the fast track authority because Congress will always get an up-or-down vote on the actual trade deal, whenever Obama deigns to share it with us.




Yeah and votes for cloture are just votes to end debate in the senate and not the vote that will actually decide if something passes or some appointee is confirmed.

119 Uh-oh. Ace is threatening to go Democrat on us again.
Posted by: Jane D'oh at June 12, 2015 03:09 PM (FsuaD)

He's just pissed like the rest of us and is going a little Cleavon Little on us. Rest assured he is OK

120 "I'm glad it failed, and I hope to see more bills fail in congress until I see some leaders I trust."

The sad part about all this is the expansion of the long list of those whom I now actively distrust.

Looking at Scott Walker and Ted Cruz here.

I really am going to have trouble voting for anyone whose stance on Obamatrade was anything other than "Not just 'no', but HELL, NO."

121 Ace,

I haven't trusted the GOP in decades.

It's just a tool to use if you want, and that others will try to use as well.

122 [applause]

Good Post.

123 105 Posted by: BB Wolf at June 12, 2015 03:08 PM (qh617)

OK have it your way, but you seem to be the only one who thinks that. Sigh

Posted by: Nevergiveup at June 12, 2015 03:09 PM (/tNwW)


Gonna change my nick to Cassandra.... /smile

124 Come to me.... trust me... I wouldn't harm a soul.

125 87 As for all the empty arguments about legal authority, the central issue here is that Congress has the power today to put a stop to TPP. Having given up their necks today, it is unlikely they will find the will to do their duty to the American people on any future play-pretend vote.

> Either body can stop TPA any time they want with a vote started by the committees overseeing trade. Congress can also refuse to hold a vote on any trade deal. Pelosi did that with the Colombia Trade Pact in 2008.

126 Thank God you stupid nut cases are at the margins of the GOP, fooled by the noise you create in your internet echo chambers.

We don't care if you leave the party BUT if you are not committed to our party, BUTT OUT of our primary selection process. Start your own Pinhead Party.

-
Don't worry. I'm sure you'll get another chance to fuck someone up the ass.

127 "Mommy, I just saw the guy daddy calls 'Spokes Bitch' on T.V. What does 'SNAFU' stand for??"

128 Listen to VB at:
Www.howiecarrshow.com

Jeff Sessions thinks some republicans will turn for Tuesday's vote!!

129

Well.... maybe if we toss more teabaggers overboard....

130 "Elect us to a majority and we'll repeal the ACA"
double swear, cross our hearts and hope to die we will

131

Posted by: Nevergiveup at June 12, 2015 03:09 PM (/tNwW)


Gonna change my nick to Cassandra.... /smile
Posted by: BB Wolf at June 12, 2015 03:11 PM (qh617)


By the way the rules of the Senate and House are sos fucked up, for all I know, you may be right. But yeah either way, us regular people are probably going to get fucked.

132 Let them make EVERYTHING PUBLIC and wait a week or 2
so people can read it and then let's have a vote. Hey what a novel
democratic idea?

Posted by: Nevergiveup

Didn't TFG run on transparency and putting all bills online for people to read n' sht?

Completely out of control.

Insert AllenG's mantra here.

133 Beautiful post.

134 Free trade means no tariffs on imports. The third world scum still imposes tariffs on our goods. They just call their tariffs value added taxes.

135 my guide in this kind of matter is that every deal Obama makes gives someone else the prizes and we get the "Thank you for participating and being a good sport, loser".

136 I trust Jeff Sessions only on this one!

137 Has the vote threshold changed?

138 Try us, motherfuckers. We are ready to form another party and consign
you corrupt, racist, backwards, uneducated money-grubbing dolts to the
fate of the Whigs....

Righteous rant, Ace!!!!
Bravo!

139 Thank God you stupid nut cases are at the margins of the GOP, fooled by the noise you create in your internet echo chambers.

---

Hey asshole.... in case you havent noticed.... the entire GOP is pretty fucking marginal right now.

140 Boehner has a primary opponent, JD Winteregg. I'm tossing some money his way no matter what. I'm not vetting him because he passes the only test that matters: he's not John Boehner.

Boehner, McCarthy, Scalise, McMorris-Rogers and Ryan need to go. It might be impossible to get them out via primary, so the Dems will need to run serious candidates (I think Boehner was unopposed last time).

141 I trust Jeff Sessions only on this one!
Posted by: Carol at June 12, 2015 03:13 PM (sj3Ax)

I trust only in G-D and sometimes I have doubts about him

142
94 How many of you have read TPA?

TPA text: http://1.usa.gov/1Hva6zK
Posted by: Miss80sBaby at June 12, 2015 03:07 PM (YjDyJ)


Honestly, high establishment hack in congress are you employed by?

143 Who doesn't like a little T&A?

144 >>>
That's my understanding. Fast-track means that a treaty is presented to the Senate as a take-it-or-leave-it vote, no amending permitted. Otherwise the Senate could amend any treaty that has been presented, which would mean that the amendments would have to be sent out to the other signatories to the treaty for their approval.


yes, fast-track just means amendments cannot be proposed; all deals like this can be henpecked to literal death (that is, they can't pass) by one yahoo after another proposing an amendment Like "I want a guaranted that not a single job will be lost due to this, and if a single job is lost, the bill is repealed."

Shit that the yahoos would go for (because it sounds good in a soundbite) but is so stupid.

So fast-track protects the bill as presented. You get one vote: Yes to all, or No to all.

It is not a guarantee that it will pass... but obviously the point of it is to help TPP pass.

145 Which establishment hack*

146 voting Democrat won't spite the Republicans. It's cutting off your nose to spite your face. Better to vote libertarian or conservative or some other third party.

147 Ace,

Well, I agree. My republican representative has inspired me to not just stay home but to vote in the general against him. I guess that means voting for their friends on the other side of the isle.

148 We don't care if you leave the party BUT if you are not committed to our party, BUTT OUT of our primary selection process. Start your own Pinhead Party.

No. I plan to vote in your primary because I can. Cry about it.

149 Awesome post.

150 fast-track just means amendments cannot be proposed; all deals like this can be henpecked to literal death (that is, they can't pass) by one yahoo after another proposing an amendment Like "I want a guaranted that not a single job will be lost due to this, and if a single job is lost, the bill is repealed."

Shit that the yahoos would go for (because it sounds good in a soundbite) but is so stupid.

So fast-track protects the bill as presented. You get one vote: Yes to all, or No to all.

It is not a guarantee that it will pass... but obviously the point of it is to help TPP pass.

Posted by: ace at June 12, 2015 03:14 PM (PA7DS)

1) NO Fast Tracked Bill has ever been defeated after it was fast tracked

2) We don't know what else is the Fast Track Authorization since it is Secret and THAT worries me more than the Fast Track Authorization

151 After going over to Breitbart and reading about the votes, it turns out that my tool of a Congressperson, Sander 'I'll Be Here Till I Die' Levin of Union Distrct, MI was actually a leader in the fight against this.

/we are in opposite world now...

152 Looking at Scott Walker and Ted Cruz here.



I really am going to have trouble voting for anyone whose stance on
Obamatrade was anything other than "Not just 'no', but HELL, NO."



Posted by: torquewrench at June 12, 2015 03:11 PM (noWW6)

I think what was behind their support is that they are thinking of themselves as future Presidents, and anything that constrains the Presidency is something they don't want to get behind for fear it will come back to haunt them later.

153 We don't care if you leave the party BUT if you are not committed to our party, BUTT OUT of our primary selection process. Start your own Pinhead Party.

---

Who knew Karl Rove posted here.

154 Ace - well said.

The TPA vote (by itself) doesn't fundamentally change anything. But it certainly sends a signal. And I agree it is a signal less that we don't trust Obama - more that we don't trust the GOP Congress.

155 but obviously the point of it is to help TPP pass.



And with our current crop of yawhoo's scares the crap out of me for one.

156 Hey remember how we needed to vote for the republicans because we needed the senate. Because they problem was that Boehner was actually passing all these awesome bills but Harry Reid was just refusing to allow them to come up for a vote in the senate. So we needed the senate so these great bills would finally be passed in the senate and it would actually force Obama to sign or veto them and put him on the spot.


Yeah that's really happening isn't it.

157 My Congressman Scott Garrett (R) voted with us
He is a pretty good guy

158 I am ready to vote Democrat, just to spite you.

How much spite is that in metric?

I'm not ready to sign up for hellfire by proxy yet but I may be too busy picking my nose to walk a block to the polls.

159 Could not have said it better.

Bravo, Ace!

I'm amazed that even Pelosi gets it, yet these guys can't.

160 >>Ergo, I'm going to insist you do this: Exactly nothing at all.

THIS.

The *conservative* thing to do when faced with a grossly unpopular bill running up to an election is to DO NOTHING... at least not until you've held town halls with the people who elected and whom you need for the next election.


It occurs to me that the GOP leadership (and their cheerleading squad) is so bad that even in defeat Obama gets a victory simply b/c of the further damage in the trust btwn GOP voters and their elected officials.

I don't think the GOP cheerleaders realize how much damage they do to their own cause - and to our (I thought) SHARED CAUSE of winning the WH - when they insult the voters for not going along with this clusterfark. I read so many insulting tweets from people that I respect (or respected) referring to opposition to TPA/TPP etc as a "clown show" and basically calling us stupid.

Hey, a-holes, I was undecided until you started hurling the insults.

The GOP only fights when it helps their corporate patrons. The rest of the time, when it's a matter of principle of importance to the base, they roll over.

161 "This bill improves health carefree trade! You're not against health care free trade, are you????"

162 /we are in opposite world now...

Call me a conspiracy nut, but I wouldn't be a bit surprised if this is all staged to further destroy confidence in our govt, so when the totalitarian "fix" comes, people will shrug their shoulders and say "can't be worse than what we have now".

163 That's my understanding. Fast-track means that a treaty is presented to the Senate as a take-it-or-leave-it vote, no amending permitted.

----

I'm not sure how fast tracking does this. Fast tracking cannot change the Constitution. The Senate cannot be bound by this fast tracking legislation on its future ability to advise and consent on a treaty.

164 76 "The fast track thing is just an agreement between congress and the president that congress won't try to amend or alter the Trans Pacific Partnership (TPP), right?

and Congress would still get a veto vote on whatever Obama puts in the TPP, right?"

> It is much more than that. Congress uses the TPA to outline their what they do and do not wish to see in a trade deal and place certain requirements on an Administration with regards to any future trade deals. One such requirement is that the president is required to consult with and inform not only Congress but the private sector regarding ongoing negotiations.

165 Pinhead Party.

Who knew Karl Rove posted here.

Posted by: fixerupper at June 12, 2015 03:17 PM (8XRCm)

More like Bill O'Rielly

166 Posted by: ace at June 12, 2015 03:14 PM (PA7DS)

But its also a straight up or down vote... a simple majority... not the 2/3ds the Constitution calls for...

How a LAW can over ride the REQUIRMENT of the Constitution, I still don't understand... but it seems to.

167 I understand the reasoning for the TPA. However, can anyone define the general goals of the treaty for which TPA is requested? I mean beyond the "IT'S FREE TRADE!!!!11!!!"

Plus, when it comes to the Federalist talking about immigration or trade, they are not a source I go to. The issue, as Ace points out, is that people don't trust government with these deals. Remember NAFTA was supposed to make North America into this great economic powerhouse and stop illegal immigration. Instead more illegal immigration and China has passed us up. And you can go on with a lot of the other trade deals.

168 Give the GOPe the angry Centimeter

169 Speaking of great rants about corrupt and self-serving politicians, here is Rand Simberg on Richard Shelby:

http://www.transterrestrial.com/?p=60874

170 I think what was behind their support is that they are thinking of themselves as future Presidents, and anything that constrains the Presidency is something they don't want to get behind for fear it will come back to haunt them later.

Bingo.

The problem with Republics is that everybody sees themselves as being the top dog someday, so they vote to give the top dog more power.

The executive grew into a full-blown dictator in the 20th century.

171 Free trade is good.

No it isn't.

Free Trade between nations with similar standards of living (say, us, Canada, Japan, Germany) is good because it expands the choice of goods.

Free Trade between nations with disparate standards of living can only result in an averaging of those standards, because employers, not being stupid, will move to where the cheap labor is as quickly as they can manage. Averaging us with 'dirt poor' long enough will make us 'dirt poor' as well.

Unless you want to believe we can go on trading green strips of cotton with pictures of dead presidents 1s and 0s representing pieces of green cotton with pictures of dead presidents for actual stuff forever, while managing a majority of the population with nothing constructive to do. In that case go on supporting DC and the CoC.

172 'Fast track' is bad. Debate is part of the process - a positive part of it. It requires taking time to think/analyze/discuss/evaluate before making a decision.

173 Gosh, everyone on Fox Business channel says TPP is wonderful.

174 Federal Constitutional Party! Or Fuck Commies for short.

175 Why give up the 2/3 part?

176 OT but at least more good news and we need that:

About face: Pentagon rules La. guardsman who died in chopper crash can be buried at Arlington

177 "Yeah that's really happening isn't it."

I won't do it again.

178 White is black.

Posted by: The Great White Snark at June 12, 2015 02:59 PM (XUKZU)


You got that right brother.

179 I'm amazed that even Pelosi gets it, yet these guys can't.

---

id ease up on the Pelosi praise.

The only thing that Pelosi "gets" on this is sweet sweet union graffe to vote "nay".

If you think she finally found her conscience and doing right by 'Merica.... well ... I cant help you.

180 I see the trolls have moved in.

181 And Cruz, Walker have shot themselves in the foot.

182 "Try us, motherfuckers. We are ready to form another party and consign you corrupt, racist, backwards, uneducated money-grubbing dolts to the fate of the Whigs.
I am ready to vote Democrat, just to spite you.
I am ready to burn it all down.
Try me. Try all of us.
History repeats.
It only repeats the bad parts, but it repeats."

I'm going to hug this statement for a moment and then just let it go. For if it is true love, it will come back to me at my local voting venue.

...and for those who were confused about the (T) in my "autograph"-? It is not an (R), nor is it a (D).

I'd like to see more of these showing up locally. I'd LOVE to see more of them showing up Federally!

183 *blink* Pelosi on Fox just agreed with us.

184 I'll say it again: Boehner actually killed TPP. He insisted that worker adjustment assistance had to be paid for under the sequester rules, and offered Medicare cuts as the bill payer. There is no way the Democrats were going to vote for that. Cutting Medicare to pay for Obamacare was a one-time fluke that only passed by a couple of votes when they had a big majority. So fast-track TPA is now going over to the Senate without TAA (worker adjustment assistance), which again is (hopefully) a poison pill for the Senate D's, and this is the end of TPP.

185 If Bush proposed a bill that said sunny days are better than rainy days, Pelosi / Reid would do everything they could to block it.

When Obama proposes a bill that will forever change immigration and trade laws, Boner and Bitch McConnell do everything they can to help him out.

And people wonder why the left wins every fucking battle.

186 Posted by: Miss80sBaby at June 12, 2015 03:12 PM (YjDyJ)


Unlike ace, I implicitly trust Boehner, Ryan, McConnell et al to do their Constitutional duty and protect citizens (even the citizens that can't make big campaign contributions or hire their family members), so I'm sure they and their principled Establishment friends will fight tooth and nail to stop any untoward illegal or questionable activities related to this trade agreement in the future,



just like they have so many times before!



That said, I sure would like to see some of the transaction details of those Congressional bank accounts, especially the Caymans ones!

187 How a LAW can over ride the REQUIRMENT of the Constitution, I still don't understand... but it seems to.

-----

No it cannot. But I guess it depends on what is a "treaty" and if Congress is willing to cede its turf then who is going to stop them?

188 id ease up on the Pelosi praise.

The only thing that Pelosi "gets" on this is sweet sweet union graffe to vote "nay".

If you think she finally found her conscience and doing right by 'Merica.... well ... I cant help you.
Posted by: fixerupper at June 12, 2015 03:20 PM (8XRCm)

Absolutely. Pelosi is like one of those Pigs in Animal Farm and all she wants is a bigger trough to feed from

189 Don't vote, vote third-party, whatever. But if you vote for the Party of Sharpton and Obama and expect better results than the Party of Cruz and Perry, well then, you're not doing yourself or your country any good. I kow that the self-indulgent despair of "Let it Burn" attracts people, but that flame will burn you. Even the "Occupy" tards knew that.

190 173
Gosh, everyone on Fox Business channel says TPP is wonderful.



Posted by: Bertram Cabot Jr. at June 12, 2015 03:20 PM (W5DcG)

That is because corporate America is all for it because it has provisions to allow unlimited immigration of cheap labor. This is why the RNCe is pushing it and the Unions are against it.

191 If this thing of Obama's goes down, brought down by the unions who seem to have turned against Obama, that's going to make him a lame duck with 18 months to go.

192 I understand the reasoning for the TPA. However, can anyone define the general goals of the treaty for which TPA is requested? I mean beyond the "IT'S FREE TRADE!!!!11!!!"
---

Well, one interesting component is that Obama signaled that he was open to letting China into the TPP. You know, the ones who have all of his (and many of our) personal info.

I question the timing, frankly.

193 Free Trade between nations with disparate standards of living can only result in an averaging of those standards, because employers, not being stupid, will move to where the cheap labor is as quickly as they can manage.

-----

I'm not sure why that isn't good. I'd rather buy products made cheaply.

194 I've noticed Ted Cruz has gotten really, really quiet these last few days.
Bastard.

When somebody tells you who they are, believe them.

195 This is all about immigration. How to give amnesty without having to get it through without Congress


It's giving someone else permission to do it

196 150 1) NO Fast Tracked Bill has ever been defeated after it was fast tracked

< Nancy Pelosi did it. She even bragged about it on the floor earlier today.

@ChadPergram 2h Pelosi on trade: We've rejected Fast Track before.

2) We don't know what else is the Fast Track Authorization since it is Secret and THAT worries me more than the Fast Track Authorization

< The text of fast-track/TPA is @ http://1.usa.gov/1Hva6zK.

197 federal government's new logo:

A black box.

Posted by: Tex Lovera at June 12, 2015 02:58 PM (wtvvX)

Um Barry don't do black boxes. IYKWIMAITYD

198 189 Don't vote, vote third-party, whatever. But if you vote for the Party of Sharpton and Obama and expect better results than the Party of Cruz and Perry, well then, you're not doing yourself or your country any good. I kow that the self-indulgent despair of "Let it Burn" attracts people, but that flame will burn you. Even the "Occupy" tards knew that.
Posted by: Lincolntf at June 12, 2015 03:22 PM (2cS/G)


Nothing lasts forever my friend.

199 Isn't Paul Ryan the smarty-pants who, instead of pushing a continuing resolution when the Republicans took over the House of Representatives, supported a bloated budget in addition to the 2009 stimulus?

200 hear hear, Ace!

201
189 Don't vote, vote third-party, whatever. But if you vote for the Party of Sharpton and Obama and expect better results than the Party of Cruz and Perry, well then, you're not doing yourself or your country any good. I kow that the self-indulgent despair of "Let it Burn" attracts people, but that flame will burn you. Even the "Occupy" tards knew that.
Posted by: Lincolntf at June 12, 2015 03:22 PM (2cS/G)



Well said! Now here put this apple in your mouth and we're going to tie you to this stick over a fire.

202 It doesn't really matter if the GOP is in shreds because of a grassroots revolt, or if its in shreds because it obeys the orders of Demo-lite billionaire donors. So if it makes no difference to what happens in Washington, might as well kill the thing ourselves, clear the ground for a replacement.

Burn, burn, burn, burn, burn, burn, burn.

203 "*blink* Pelosi on Fox just agreed with us. "


Somewhere along the way we've walked through a looking glass.

204 I'm not sure why that isn't good. I'd rather buy products made cheaply.

Posted by: SH at June 12, 2015 03:23 PM (gmeXX)

And as your wages go down what will you buy the cheap products with?

205 The cheap labor equals new citizens often.

206 I'm not sure why that isn't good. I'd rather buy products made cheaply.
Posted by: SH at June 12, 2015 03:23 PM (gmeXX)


There is always China for you and general motors.

207 195 This is all about immigration. How to give amnesty without having to get it through without Congress

It's giving someone else permission to do it

> Such a move is not only prohibited by TPA but also by the amended House customs bill.

208 So fast-track TPA is now going over to the Senate without TAA (worker adjustment assistance), which again is (hopefully) a poison pill for the Senate D's, and this is the end of TPP.


Posted by: Caesar North of the Rubicon at June 12, 2015 03:21 PM (t2m1Y)


I really hope you are correct... but... it was the Dems who were holding this up and needed the sweetener...

Will they continue to give Obama a MAJOR defeat????

I don't think so....

209 I'm not sure why that isn't good. I'd rather buy products made cheaply.

Are you operating under the assumption that the savings are passed onto you? If that were true, they wouldn't do it.

Disney laid off workers during record profits and replaced them with immigrant slave labor. It's just about grabbing money for profits.

210 I'm not against fast track in theory. I just don't know why this bill is needed. In fact, I'm quite certain it is not needed. Obama can fast track whatever free trade agreement he wants - but since it is a treaty it must be approved by the Senate who has the Constitutional power to slow down the agreement or not accept the agreement. The TPA changes nothing in theory. Therefore I can only assume it is meant to allow Congress to say one thing and do another.

211 Oh, ace, vote for me, and all your dreams will come true....

212 Voting democrat, might be one easy way of killing the GOP. Yeah it'll hurt in the short term, but is there another easier to start a 3rd party? Making our own 3rd party is difficult. The tea party didn't become a political party per say.

213 178 White is black.

Posted by: The Great White Snark at June 12, 2015 02:59 PM (XUKZU)


You got that right brother.
.....
um... sister

214 I recall when the Patriot Act was introduced, lots of people had concerns which were derided as paranoid lunacy. We were assured that Congress would, of course, fully monitor all of this, no due process was being avoided, no way could it ever be abused, it was just another tool in our toolbox and a necessary one, etc etc.

If this wasn't a big deal, then Boehnor & Co wouldn't be bullies about it. That they are speaks volumes. And that's why I say fuck no.

215 I'm not sure how fast tracking does this. Fast
tracking cannot change the Constitution. The Senate cannot be bound by
this fast tracking legislation on its future ability to advise and
consent on a treaty.

Posted by: SH at June 12, 2015 03:18 PM (gmeXX)

Did you read ace's post? You are referencing theory, ace is referencing practice!

We do not trust the "Establishment" ruling class!

216 My tea party (ha ha) senator sent me a begathon letter cuz Russ Feingold is running against him. Instead of a check I will send him a copy of this thread. He's the guy who ace referred to is coming up with a bill with subsidies should SCOTUS slam Obamacare. Friends like that who needs dems

217 "But we have to pass the bill so that you can find out what is in it" Nancy Pelosi

"... we have to pass the bill so that you can find out what is in it."
"It's declassified and made public once it's agreed to," Ryan said.


... let's start by only passing bills with texts we can see

There isn't enough lipstick in DC to make this stuff look good.

218 I am convinced that we STILL don't know what scam they are pulling. When I see that ding bat Pelosi getting credit for "saving America" I get all kinds of RED FUCKING FLAGS going up telling me not to believe any of what I just saw.

219 Burn it down. We have to beat the Dems and the Est GOPe.

Burn it all down.

220 Besides, if another country has something useful to us, we're better off making a bilateral treaty for it rather that one of these bullshit organizations where everyone gets an equal vote and we're outnumbered.

221 And as your wages go down what will you buy the cheap products with?

-----

My wages are not going down. My wages are going up. My buying power is increasing. I'd rather have an America that produces high end goods that require high skill sets. Let the other countries produce the goods that require low skill sets.

222 If you believe that it's going to happen anyway no matter what, you're just ensuring that the final result will be more left-wing. By your own argument Ace, you're saying that the leadership will cut any deal necessary to get fast track passed. To a large degree that's true-- they'd prefer not to have TAA, but if TAA is necessary to get Democratic votes because of Republicans voting against, then they'll take it.

223 >>>Isn't Paul Ryan the smarty-pants who, instead of
pushing a continuing resolution when the Republicans took over the House
of Representatives, supported a bloated budget in addition to the 2009
stimulus?


Posted by: Marooned Maroon at June 12, 2015 03:24 PM (hTHAs)<<<


Yup. We both outsmarted him. **raises Guinness glass** Brilliant!

224 The vote today is also an interesting commentary on just how weak GOP leadership is in general. With both Boehner and McConnell pushing this deal in public and behind the scenes for the last few weeks, it crashes and burns. Pelosi comes out at the last minute to voice her opposition and that's that. Who has the power in Congress again? Clearly it's not the current GOP leadership.

225 And Cruz, Walker have shot themselves in the foot.

--

So Ham Sandwich '16 is back on, right?

Great post, Ace. And I agree 99%. The GOP will see me stay home before I'd ever pull the lever for any Dem.

226 I'm not sure how fast tracking does this. Fast
tracking cannot change the Constitution.

-----

Doesnt matter if you change it when you no longer follow it.

227 The TPA changes nothing in theory.

Yes it does. TPA would require a simple up or down vote without amendment. Simple majority.

228 I don't know enough about this sort of thing to be able to recognize the good, bad, and ugly of it all. Having said that, if Pelosi is against it and Cruz is for it, there's probably more to recommend than to condemn. Still, I'd rather that both sides fight each other to a standstill, than ram something through that screws this country's inhabitants one more time.

229 A little note here.

Just as it's possible to support law enforcement without supporting abusive individual police officers, it's possible to support free trade without supporting purported "trade" bills that are kept under top secret lock and key without public scrutiny.

Not only would they not let the general public look at the provisions of the agreement, they wouldn't let the bulk of LEGISLATORS look at the goddamn thing.

230 I'm a registered Democrat (DINO) and I'm not ready to vote for any Democrats. I may not vote depending on who the Republican candidate for President is, but I will NOT vote for any Democrats.

231 I'm not sure why that isn't good. I'd rather buy products made cheaply.

Posted by: SH at June 12, 2015 03:23 PM (gmeXX)


If Free Trade is sooooo great...

How come the US Economy is WORSE off, compared to our competitors, since we really got on the Free Trade bandwagon?

We make less stuff, and spend more money in other places... and wages have been STAGNANT for 20 years now...

232 194 I've noticed Ted Cruz has gotten really, really quiet these last few days.
---

Amanda Carpenter, who was the star of his communications team, just resigned. I think she may have been on vacation when his vote went down. He was completely flat-footed in explaining his vote.


And to the Smart Set, all many of us are asking for is for the GOP to take the time and effort to explain to their voters why they should support these things. Go home, hold town halls, and LISTEN.

Instead, I've read nothing but insults from the people backing this bill.

233 207 > Such a move is not only prohibited by TPA but also by the amended House customs bill.


Posted by: Miss80sBaby at June 12, 2015 03:25 PM (YjDyJ)


Links from this morning:
Silicon Valley bosses are pushing this POS bill as well citing elimination of trade barriers. I would bet a 6-pack of beer what it also does is allow them to bring in another big load of cheap foreign workers so they lay off Americans.


http://wapo.st/1B6TFIY




And lo and behold in the very next article it allows relaxation of the visa process of Pakistan (and I'll bet a lot of other places). So what in the hell does the visa process for Pakistan have to do with trade?


http://bit.ly/1cO3WOu
More evidence of secret immigration authority for Obama in the trade bill.


http://bit.ly/1S52IOT

234 Disney laid off workers during record profits and replaced them with immigrant slave labor. It's just about grabbing money for profits.
Posted by: Bevel Lemelisk at June 12, 2015 03:25 PM (Fcca6)



So did Carly. I was physically there. I saw (and smelled...forgive me, but it was what it was) HP employees training their H1B replacements.

Just a reminder to anyone swept up in her rhetoric.

235 Isn't Paul Ryan the smarty-pants who, instead of
pushing a continuing resolution when the Republicans took over the House
of Representatives, supported a bloated budget in addition to the 2009
stimulus?


Posted by: Marooned Maroon at June 12, 2015 03:24 PM (hTHAs)

That was like a hundred years ago!

236 My wages are not going down. My wages are going up. My buying power is increasing. I'd rather have an America that produces high end goods that require high skill sets. Let the other countries produce the goods that require low skill sets.
Posted by: SH at June 12, 2015 03:27 PM (gmeXX)

That assumes the other countries are full of stupid people.

237 226 I'm not sure how fast tracking does this. Fast
tracking cannot change the Constitution.

-----

Doesnt matter if you change it when you no longer follow it.

Posted by: fixerupper at June 12, 2015 03:27 PM (8XRCm)


Thread Winner....

238 196
150 1) NO Fast Tracked Bill has ever been defeated after it was fast tracked

< Nancy Pelosi did it. She even bragged about it on the floor earlier today.

@ChadPergram 2h Pelosi on trade: We've rejected Fast Track before.



Miss80sBaby, surely you know the difference between a "fast tracked bill" and a bill granting fast track authority. The former is about TPP in this case. The latter is about TPA. Can you name a trade agreement negotiated under fast track authority that did not receive a majority up vote?

239 Posted by: Lincolntf at June 12, 2015 03:22 PM (2cS/G)

Well said.

240 Did you read ace's post? You are referencing theory, ace is referencing practice!

We do not trust the "Establishment" ruling class!

-----

Did you not read my whole comment. I said the same.

241 To everything (burn, burn, burn)
There is a season (burn, burn, burn)
And a time to every purpose under heaven.

A time to be born, a time to burn
a time to plant, a time to burn
a time to kill, a time to burn
a time to laugh, a time to burn

To everything (burn, burn, burn)
There is a season (burn, burn, burn)
And a time to every purpose under heaven.

A time to build up, a time to burn
A time to dance, a time to burn
a time to scatter the stones and salt the ashes...

242 A family member worked for a company that made auto parts. They moved a plant to Mexico to take advantage of that sweet, cheap labor. A year later, they moved the plant back to the States because of all the QC issues and mismanagement.

My $.02

243 *clambers to the tippy top of the tallest step ladder*

*applauds wildly*


This. All. Of. This.


Oh and here. GOP 4EVA says this. Fuck you lying motherfucking cunts says that. Both sides think the other is stupid. Lather, rinse, repeat.


Post needs moar TruCon cat.

244 I am going to sit this hand out. They're playing right along with my plans. Now, fly George Stephanopoulis, fly! And tell my husband.

245 184
I'll say it again: Boehner actually killed TPP. He insisted that worker
adjustment assistance had to be paid for under the sequester rules, and
offered Medicare cuts as the bill payer. There is no way the Democrats
were going to vote for that. Cutting Medicare to pay for Obamacare was a
one-time fluke that only passed by a couple of votes when they had a
big majority. So fast-track TPA is now going over to the Senate without
TAA (worker adjustment assistance), which again is (hopefully) a poison
pill for the Senate D's, and this is the end of TPP.


Posted by: Caesar North of the Rubicon at June 12, 2015 03:21 PM (t2m1Y)
So what you're saying is that instead of standing up and saying this bill stinks,we're not going to action it, he came up with some sort of super elaborate strategy to secretly kill the bill will pissing off his constituents?

246 Well, one interesting component is that Obama signaled that he was open to letting China into the TPP. You know, the ones who have all of his (and many of our) personal info.

I question the timing, frankly.
Posted by: Y-not at June 12, 2015 03:22 PM (RWGcK)

Think the Chi-Coms will release his school & passport transcripts
That would be f*cking icing on the cake

247
I am convinced that we STILL don't know what scam they are pulling.
When I see that ding bat Pelosi getting credit for "saving America" I
get all kinds of RED FUCKING FLAGS going up telling me not to believe
any of what I just saw.

--

Amen. This entire thing is hinky.

248 I don't trust assholes who call themselves conservatives or Republicans but won't pass fast track. You're Dixiecrats.

249 I don't know. Not voting might be a solution, but I think actually voting democrat might be a faster way to replace the GOP.

250
How come the US Economy is WORSE off, compared to our competitors, since we really got on the Free Trade bandwagon?

So we say we believe in free markets but what we really want is to do smarter protectionism than the other side?

Principled.

251 #YellowstoneCaldera2016!

Let It Burn . . . MADE IN AMERICA!!!

252 I still want to know which congressman miss80s is on the payroll of. She hasn't been around since the shutdown when she was again siding with democrats and the establishment and accusing Ted Cruz and others of just trying to fundraise off it.

253 My wages are not going down. My wages are going up. My buying power is increasing.

Congrats then your a rare case. Family incomes have been going down for the last 6 years. and, prices have rising at a steady pace roughly 4-5 % per year.

254 ACE is spot on. the GOP leadership has ZERO credibility. 0bama should have as little power as possible. Those with a brain have no faith that 0bama will use his authority for the benefit of the country.

255 Instead, I've read nothing but insults from the people backing this bill.

Posted by: Y-not at June 12, 2015 03:28 PM (RWGcK)

I'm so old, I can remember when members of Congress had live town hall meetings. Now they just insult me in a newsletter, +refuse to answer my emails, and/or have their staff lie to me on the phone (when I can get through).

256 "TPA would require a simple up or down vote without amendment. Simple majority."

And that is key. The Senate leadership are taking normal Constitutional mechanisms for treaty ratification and standing them on their heads.

257 "I know that the self-indulgent despair of "Let it Burn" attracts people, but that flame will burn you. Even the "Occupy" tards knew that."
-Posted by: Lincolntf at June 12, 2015 03:22 PM (2cS/G)

No they didn't, nor do they to this day. In fact, they were along the "Make It Burn" Anarchists that had no idea what it would take to outlast such a "Feature of the People".

258 Pretty f-ing simple life rule, if Obama wants it - the answer is no.

259 But if you vote for the Party of Sharpton and Obama and expect better results than the Party of Cruz and Perry, well then, you're not doing yourself or your country any good. I kow that the self-indulgent despair of "Let it Burn" attracts people, but that flame will burn you. Even the "Occupy" tards knew that.
Posted by: Lincolntf at June 12, 2015 03:22 PM (2cS/G)


I do NOT expect better results.

I expect it to BURN

260


I am reminded of this.............http://tinyurl.com/a6sx7vy

261 80s baby I know that the Chamber wants it, I know the tech companies want it. And I know Ryan wants it. And the JEF wants it. And all of them are pro amnesty. And Mexico is a signatory. Why do I believe that they won't allow amnesty as part of the agreement. He is doing it now in violation of current law

262 258

^^^^ Obama has earned that response.

263 Miss80sBaby, surely you know the difference between a "fast tracked bill" and a bill granting fast track authority. The former is about TPP in this case. The latter is about TPA. Can you name a trade agreement negotiated under fast track authority that did not receive a majority up vote?
Posted by: Caesar North of the Rubicon at June 12, 2015 03:29 PM (t2m1Y)

Of course she can't because she confused what I said. And one reason a Fast Tracked bill has never been defeated is that it then only needs a simple majority of 51.

264 1. Increase and further entrench the power of hardcore Leftists.
2. ????...
3. Profit!

265 I can remember back after the last election Boehner saying Obama wanted to annihilate the Republican party and consign them to the dustbin of History.

I think the Republican Party didn't need Obama to destroy themselves they do it so well all by themselves.

266 I'm not sure why that isn't good. I'd rather buy products made cheaply.
Posted by: SH at June 12, 2015 03:23 PM (gmeXX)

Of course, everyone would. But gutting your economy to get cheap goods isn't good. The problem with Free Traders over all is they see everything in economic terms, including people. They don't see culture, nations, religion, etc. Maximizing the economic benefits doesn't make things better necessarily.

267 "Disney laid off workers during record profits and replaced them with immigrant slave labor."

Waiting to hear a Republican presidential aspirant prominently cite this example while out giving stump speeches.

I figure I'll be waiting for a long while yet.

268 Why no amendments. Why the rush. Why now. This is just like health care. Zero trust. Shut up they explained

269 Instead, I've read nothing but insults from the people backing this bill.

What Hrothgar said.

270 The Trolls are back.

271 We don't trust the GOP any longer.

We gave them the reigns way too many times.

They ran us over with the trojans.

272 So did Carly. I was physically there. I saw (and smelled...forgive me, but it was what it was) HP employees training their H1B replacements.

Just a reminder to anyone swept up in her rhetoric.
Posted by: Bob's House of Flannel Shirts and Wallet Chains
--

Thanks.

I'm working on the immigration stuff for tomorrow and Fiorina's campaign site is utterly devoid of "Issues" pages or her record. I don't mean 50 page white papers -- I mean bullet points indicating what she would do if elected. Both Rubio and Perry have them up.

The thought had occurred to me that she might have that particular skeleton in her closet.

I don't get the Fiorina love. She is a useful attack dog on Hillary, but not a serious candidate.

273 I wonder if Paul Ryan had a giant fucking gavel? Just in case.

274 That was my point, ColdBeer. Their goal was the same as the LIB'ers. Let chaos reign, enjoy the coming "new order", which will be unmasked dictatorship. They were coming from a different angle, but looking for the same result.

275 Barack Obama is a SCOAMT.

276 Again, for the record, I *might* vote Republican, but I'll never vote Democrat.



The most I'll move on that is to change "might" to 'won't'.

277 Burn it down.
Scatter the stones.
Salt the earth where it stood.

278 Pretty f-ing simple life rule, if Obama wants it - the answer is no.

Yeah, fire burns, you can drown in water and everything Obama says the opposite is true x 10.

279 "Disney laid off workers during record profits and replaced them with immigrant slave labor."


By the way one reason Disney is doing this ( and I am NOT defending Disney) is because the new workers will be contractors who's benefits like FREDOCARE will not be paid by Disney but by the Company Disney is contracting with to replace the workers they are firing

280 I am ready to burn it all down.

Dammit. Of course ace posts this while I'm stuck in a meeting.

281 Posted by: SH at June 12, 2015 03:30 PM (gmeXX)


Here's what I read

I'm not sure how fast tracking does this. Fast
tracking cannot change the Constitution. The Senate cannot be bound by
this fast tracking legislation on its future ability to advise and
consent on a treaty.
Posted by: SH at June 12, 2015 03:18 PM (gmeXX)

I may have missed some of your earlier input.

282 It is time for the whole Hastert Wing of the Party to face prosecution.

283 So we say we believe in free markets but what we really want is to do smarter protectionism than the other side?

Principled.

Posted by: Bandersnatch, Lord Guardian, Protector, and Moisturizer to The Rack at June 12, 2015 03:31 PM (JtwS4)

You do realize that free trade really isn't? Free trade as it actually is in the real world is not a free market. So, yea, continue with your attacks whenever someone objects to the current state of affairs.

284 But, Ace, you told us to vote for Thad Cochran because it was more important for the republicans to control the senate than it was to vote against him and send a message to the GOPe. I'm confused.

285 Opposing the rush to pass this sh1t sandwich is not the same as being in the let it burn camp.

But keep repeating it if it makes you feel better.

286 So we say we believe in free markets but what we really want is to do smarter protectionism than the other side?

Principled.

Posted by: Bandersnatch, Lord Guardian, Protector, and Moisturizer to The Rack at June 12, 2015 03:31 PM (JtwS4)


Please point out ANYWHERE where I have said I am for unfettered free markets?

Fact is that other countries cheat at these things all the damn time... and the US economy has exported jobs for a couple of generations right now...

We stopped making things... and stopped using our own resources...

We could do that for awhile because we had such a huge economic lead on the rest of the world... but they are now catching up, but WITHOUT a lot of our silly laws and rules which hamper our own industry.

There are only two places in the world, you can't start a new Gold Mine... the US... and PARTS of Europe... think about that for a minute...

287 why are the Unions fighting it? Work and Labor?



AFL-CIO has sponsering Illegal immigration as it as part of their goal. So fk the american worker.
BUT

What are they now worried they won't get the nations of the worlds citizens to pay dues to Them?

hahahhaah

288 237
226 I'm not sure how fast tracking does this. Fast

tracking cannot change the Constitution.



-----



Doesnt matter if you change it when you no longer follow it.



Posted by: fixerupper at June 12, 2015 03:27 PM (8XRCm)





Thread Winner....

Posted by: BB Wolf at June 12, 2015 03:29 PM (qh617)

****************
I asked Miss80sBaby this same question yesterday, and she responded to me (thank you, M80B) on a dead thread with a link to a Congressional Research Service study. It does not address the question directly, but I think the answer goes something like this: Congress is given the authority under the Constitution to decide on tariffs. The President is given the authority to make agreements that are nonbinding beyond his Presidency. So if Congress's authority to decide on tariffs against Country X requires less than a 2/3 vote, then its authority to decide on nontrade barriers also requires less than a 2/3 vote. So if the President and country X's head of state make an agreement between themselves to take to their legislatures a proposed reduction in nontariff barriers, and their legislatures adopt it, the two legislatures have both passed domestic laws on nontrade barriers that do not constitute a treaty between the two countries. I'm not sure I buy it, when you set up an organization to run it and it includes multiple countries. I'd like to see where the Supreme Court has weighed in on this practice, if it ever has.

289 Posted by: Lincolntf at June 12, 2015 03:35 PM (2cS/G)

Pardon me for my misunderstanding, amigo!

290 Screw Paul Ryan, he's a conservative traitor.

291 I can remember back after the last election Boehner
saying Obama wanted to annihilate the Republican party and consign them
to the dustbin of History. Posted by: willow at June 12, 2015 03:33 PM

Hell, willow, I bet Boner his own self can't remember saying that!

A lot of whiskey gin water has flowed under the bridge since then.

292
280 I am ready to burn it all down.

Dammit. Of course ace posts this while I'm stuck in a meeting.
Posted by: AllenG (DedicatedTenther) - Not dead yet at June 12, 2015 03:36 PM (kff5f)

You know what ace thinks of meetings

293 "Family incomes have been going down for the last 6 years. and, prices have rising at a steady pace roughly 4-5 % per year."

I'm just going to plug here the concept of archiving receipts.

It's a simple, cheap sanity check upon the government's official figures for the rate of inflation.

It's not as though they take up a ton of room. Sheesh, you can even scan and then shred them. It's having the independent line of information based upon your own data that is key.

And particularly when buying household staple foods, which do not change much from year to year, your comparisons will show you what is really happening in the economy. I can tell you that it is a big rude eye-opener to look at what a pound of ground beef cost five years ago, compared to what it costs today. While Fedzilla tells us everything is hunky-dory on the inflation front.

294 No no no! We must vote GOP so we can get another Justice on the court like Roberts.

/vomit

295 Boner is the Wizard of Oz. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain. They are all out to take what little is left from us. They will not stop scheming. Dimmy, repuke, makes no difference. they are not hiding it anymore.

296 Try us, motherfuckers. We are ready to form another party and consign you corrupt, racist, backwards, uneducated money-grubbing dolts to the fate of the Whigs. I am ready to vote Democrat, just to spite you.


Pure poetry!

297 My wages are not going down. My wages are going up. My buying power is increasing. I'd rather have an America that produces high end goods that require high skill sets. Let the other countries produce the goods that require low skill sets.

Posted by: SH at June 12, 2015 03:27 PM (gmeXX)

You do realize, don't you, that there will always be tens of millions of Americans with low skills. Between trade agreements and automation their manufacturing jobs are gone. And with massive immigration (both legal and illegal) whatever service jobs they could have held are being taken away, too. Is it too much to ask the American government to consider the interests of American citizens ahead of those of non-citizens?

298 Posted by: Not Loved Time to be Feared at June 12, 2015 03:34 PM (nRvEn)

A functional enduring civil society does not consist solely of maximizing economic benefits!

299 Yay!

OK that was totes unrelated just trust me

/where were we?

300

I'm in love with this post. (that I just finished reading)

301 Paul Ryan needs to work a shine box on the same block as that Smarmy Dry Balls Eric Cantor..

302 172
'Fast track' is bad. Debate is part of the process - a positive part of
it. It requires taking time to think/analyze/discuss/evaluate before
making a decision.





Posted by: *blank* at June 12, 2015 03:20 PM (UhRGU)

I think that is the point and jives with the secrecy of TPP. It's gotta be so chocked-full of crony payoffs and gimmes for both GOPe and the Dems for them to agree to such absurd measures to ensure nobody knows what's in it.

They both want it, and they both don't want to have to negotiate or disclose what's in it. That's why it is a foregone conclusion. They just don't want to be seen as wanting it to their base. Rotten to the core, the lot.

303 "I don't get the Fiorina love. She is a useful attack dog on Hillary, but not a serious candidate."

Then I'm willing to let her think she's a serious candidate if it keeps her on the road taking chunks out of the HillBeast's scaly hide.

I'm through with being Mr. Gentlemanly whilst in the ring with a bunch of amoral lefty thugs.

You commies wanted war in the raw, you're gonna get it. And you are NOT gonna like it.

304 "he came up with some sort of super elaborate strategy to secretly kill the bill will pissing off his constituents? "


We are talking Boehner here. If there's a bag of shit anywhere in the vicinity he'll find a way to stomp on it.

305 Posted by: Nevergiveup at June 12, 2015 03:36 PM (/tNwW)

Actually... and I just found this out...

A Corporation will only pay the penalty IF the employee they do not give Health insurance to, buys from the Exchange AND Gets a subsidy...

Then its 1/12 of $3000 per month, per employee, not covered...

But these employees make to much money, to GET the Subsidy.... thus, Disney will pay no penalty.

306 Paul Ryan on his immigration stance http://snipurl.com/2a0aq62

307 Breaking: NAACP Stands Behind Fake Black Leader RachelDolezal Update: Call It A Legal Issue With Her Family

Weasel Zippers

If yu look in the dictionary under fucked up organizations they show you a picture of the NAACP.

308 290
Screw Paul Ryan, he's a conservative traitor.

Posted by: Draki at June 12, 2015 03:38 PM (0eidE)


I hear a lot of ettes would like too.

309 >>> 22
I don't understand any of this, but I'm sick of these guys trying to secretively ram through huge sweeping bills, period.

Posted by: Kensington at June 12, 2015 02:56 PM (7Kbxu) <<<


You know what's really, really the Sadz for You Guys about this?

Knowing that at least I get a kiss from Barry before he does this to me! LOL!

310 I do not want it to burn. Ever



However they want this they should explain and sell it. Stop telling people to shut up and trust.

Doesn't work anymore. They don't like it, look in a mirror

311 I don't trust assholes who call themselves conservatives or Republicans but won't pass fast track. You're Dixiecrats.

Posted by: John Thacker

*points and laughs*

312 I do not want it to burn. Ever



However they want this they should explain and sell it. Stop telling people to shut up and trust.

Doesn't work anymore. They don't like it, look in a mirror

313 Even I want everyone of those mofos horse-whipped in the street.

Think about that for a second.


Horse-whipped metaphorically, of course.

314 righteous rant, Ace!

315 National Association for the Advancement of Curly Perms

316 You know what ace thinks of meetings
Posted by: Misanthropic Humanitarian, at June 12, 2015 03:38 PM (oNvyP)

**********

Hey, now. I know it's a big ask, but sometimes synergies have to be leveraged to identify next-steps and meet deliverables for end-users. Now where's my check?

317 Here's the deal. Repubs should always side with Democrats when Democrats oppose Obama. Always. It's just good politics.

The phrase "large bipartisan majorities in Congress rejected Obama's plan" should be a weekly occurrence.

318 I am ready to burn it all down.

Dammit. Of course ace posts this while I'm stuck in a meeting.
Posted by: AllenG (DedicatedTenther) - Not dead yet at June 12, 2015 03:36 PM (kff5f)

he's your proxy this afternoon

319 Is it too much to ask the American government to consider the interests of American citizens ahead of those of non-citizens?

Posted by: Emmett Milbarge

Yes.

320 I don't get the Fiorina love. She is a useful attack dog on Hillary, but not a serious candidate.

A novelty shield candidate like Cain or Carson.

321 Bill has gone to limbo? Why is it that bills that are generally opposed by right leaning people never die, they go to limbo? When a bill supported by conservatives doesn't win, it is dead.

Nevermind. I know the answer already.

322 And the mistrust is amplified by the scale of the proposed legislature. There's no way I can support this crew doing anything big. Anything more important than naming highways should be left to future generations.

323 Mr. Praline: Now that's what I call a dead parrot.

Owner: No, no.....No, 'e's stunned!Mr. Praline: STUNNED?!?

Owner: Yeah! You stunned him, just as he was wakin' up! Norwegian Blues stun easily, major.

Mr. Praline: Um...now look...now look, mate, I've definitely 'ad enough of this. That parrot is definitely deceased, and when I purchased it not 'alf an hour ago, you assured me that its total lack of movement was due to it bein' tired and shagged out following a prolonged squawk.Owner: Well, he's...he's, ah...probably pining for the fjords.

Mr. Praline: PININ' for the FJORDS?!?!?!? What kind of talk is that?, look, why did he fall flat on his back the moment I got 'im home?

Owner: The Norwegian Blue prefers keepin' on it's back! Remarkable bird, id'nit, squire? Lovely plumage!

324 How a LAW can over ride the REQUIRMENT of the Constitution, I still don't understand... but it seems to.

Because everyone involved just goes along to get along and do what they're told, like pretty much anyone who gets a government check.

325 238 196 Miss80sBaby, surely you know the difference between a "fast tracked bill" and a bill granting fast track authority. The former is about TPP in this case. The latter is about TPA. Can you name a trade agreement negotiated under fast track authority that did not receive a majority up vote?

> Fast-track/TPA has existed in some form or another since the FDR Administration. I also just provided you with an example of such a vote. Pelosi refused to take-up the Columbia Trade Pact of 2008 (http://wapo.st/1SbxJka).

326 National Association for the Advancement of Curly Perms
Posted by: Lincolntf at June 12, 2015 03:41 PM (2cS/G)


Also what does that sick broad do: heavy make-up, take a drug to turn her skin dark, suntan lamps? Sick puppy

327 I am ready to burn it all down.

Dammit. Of course ace posts this while I'm stuck in a meeting.
Posted by: AllenG (DedicatedTenther) - Not dead yet at June 12, 2015 03:36 PM (kff5f)

----

....allow me....

Burn
Scatter
Salt

328 >>Then its 1/12 of $3000 per month, per employee, not covered...

In my husband's industry (higher ed) the employers had some legal analysis done and concluded that the fine is based on the entire employee base, not just the non-compliant employees. So in their cases they would be facing millions of dollars in fines (per typical employer)... which is why adjuncts and other part-time employees have been so hurt by Obamacare.

329 Posted by: torquewrench at June 12, 2015 03:38 PM (noWW6)

Remember when it was tied to bread, meat, eggs and a gallon of gasoline?

But noooo-ooo, it has to be "adjusted" and tweaked because The Smart Sect, like Paul Krugman feels we don't account for, you know, "factors".

330 Back to my book. I have had enough of this crap.

331 If we can't export the job we can bring in H1B people to do jobs 'mericans are too expensive to do. Oh, and they will be able to get their lawns mowed for 10 dollars a week.

332 Hey Ace?

Welcome to the party pal.

I figured this out a few years ago and people were calling my an asshole for pointing out the obvious.

GOP is in bed with the dems, pure and simple. They make deals with them, let them do as they wish and punish conservative members of congress.

333 "I was physically there. I saw (and smelled...forgive me, but it was what it was) HP employees training their H1B replacements."

As I keep pointing out, when Fiorina stood for the Senate, the Democrats here ran ads on nothing but her business record.

DOWNSIZING. OUTSOURCING. OFFSHORING. LAYOFFS.
DOWNSIZING. OUTSOURCING. OFFSHORING. LAYOFFS.
DOWNSIZING. OUTSOURCING. OFFSHORING. LAYOFFS.

Guess what? Even in liberal Commiefornia, ordinary middle-class workers with day jobs are _goddamned worried about keeping those jobs_. And those voters aren't happy with anyone who reminds them that _they might lose their job_. Job security matters as an issue. A lot.

Fiorina got beat like a rented mule.

Of course, what a sensible GOP candidate without Fiorina's record could and should have done would be to build a campaign around the concept that mass immigration kills jobs for citizens. A solidly established empirical fact.

334 If it burns down, and we all have guns, all of the liberals will burn and then we can make utopia right?

335 Is SH the new Moo Moo? I'll bet he pays more in taxes than any of you make in a year too.

336 Fast-track/TPA has existed in some form or another since the FDR Administration. I also just provided you with an example of such a vote. Pelosi refused to take-up the Columbia Trade Pact of 2008 (http://wapo.st/1SbxJka).
Posted by: Miss80sBaby at June 12, 2015 03:42 PM (YjDyJ)

You still don't get it. NO Fast Tracked Bill has ever been defeated once it was Fast Tracked. We are not talking about a bill that was refused Fast Track Status

337 334
Just not your utopia.

338 It puzzles me why the GOP Leadership, who constantly rail against how rigid "the base" is, are being so stubborn about TPA, TPP, etc.

What's the rush?

They are being oddly non-pragmatic. Ideologically rigid, even.

But *I'm* the rigid Neanderthal.

339 Still waiting for the GOP to actually do something to stop Obama like some people kept browbeating us with as the reason you must vote for the republicans in 2012.

340 I don't know much about self-tanning, bronzing, whatever, but I assume she's been coloring her entire body, not just face and hands, all this time. That alone is cray-cray.

341 "Is it too much to ask the American government to consider the interests of American citizens ahead of those of non-citizens?"

That's another question that it would be nice to have Republican presidential aspirants bring up, and which we will be waiting for a long time to actually hear voiced.

Scott Walker gently tapdanced around the edges of that issue but backed off real fast when the donor class discreetly cleared its collective throat.

342 #337 I'd be ok with all gun owners in America making a new America once most of the liberals have burnt themselves out.

343 So what you're saying is that instead of standing up
and saying this bill stinks,we're not going to action it, he came up
with some sort of super elaborate strategy to secretly kill the bill
will pissing off his constituents?


Posted by: Nate in NOLA at June 12, 2015 03:30 PM (lhX9P)

I'm not sure. I'm just reporting what I see. Is it POSSIBLE that he is secretly trying to kill it without the big money donors (his real constituents) noticing, to have his cake and eat it too, to vote for the $87 billion before he voted against it, so he can have it both ways? I can't imagine that he's that shrewd, but he does know a lot about arcane procedural crap. I think the logic is sound, though. Without the insistence on taking money out of Medicare, Obama gets enough D's.

344 There is not a single piece of legislation or policy that Barky supports that has ever been good for this country. Not one.

All of a sudden, he has negotiated this super duper trade deal that we absolutely must have eleventy! This deal is so super duper it must be kept from the public in a vault in the basement.

The idea that anyone even marginally on our side would support this is absurd.

Free trade is fine but this from these people?

I don't even have words to describe my feelings about this idiocy.

Hell no.

345 >>I don't get the Fiorina love. She is a useful attack dog on Hillary, but not a serious candidate.

I love what Fiorina is doing, I don't love her as a potential president. Kinda like rooting for a team that will take out your own team's biggest threat during playoffs.

346 Back to my book. I have had enough of this crap.
Posted by: Vic We Have Nobody to vote for at June 12, 2015 03:43 PM (GpgJl)

hehe.

yeah, I slipped away for a work out session, and will probably read a bit of sci-fi now

before the TGIF glass becomes visible, and I can no longer comprehend -- which is when I will return here.

347 But noooo-ooo, it has to be "adjusted" and tweaked because The Smart Sect, like Paul Krugman feels we don't account for, you know, "factors".

Posted by: ColdBeer1 (Slap) (T) at June 12, 2015 03:43 PM (OQ9R7)

I'd love to be able to "seasonally" adjust both my salary and my expenses!

348 342
Almost the same page then. I don't think the libs will go quietly into the night. Not as long as there is ONE asset to take.

349 Also what does that sick broad do: heavy make-up, take a drug to turn her skin dark, suntan lamps?

Nothing to it!

350 I am fairly well convinced, at this point; that all GOP candidates from 1989 to now have been plants by the Progressive movement. In the back of my head I want to believe that there is a reasonable explanation for this treason...something like; Aliens have threatened to burn down the planet if the US doesn't get its people on board with the new rulers grand plan, or something.

351 As for torquewrench's archive of receipts for goods, you need to note the quantity of stuff in the containers.

Many of the consumer goods you buy have less stuff in the same size containers. McCormick just got outed by the WSJ for using the same size container, packaging, etc. for 3 ounces of black pepper instead of the previous 4. It's noted on the label, but if you're not looking for it, you'd easily assume it's the same as before. And if the new container sells for the same amount as the old one, that's a 33% cost increase right there that's not going to show up on the inflation scale.

Keep an eye open; you'll probably be surprised how prevalent this is.

352 However they want this they should explain and sell it. Stop telling people to shut up and trust.

Doesn't work anymore. They don't like it, look in a mirror

Posted by: Thunder B, Shapeshifter at June 12, 2015 03:41 PM
---

^THIS

353 To all asking to see it before they vote on it: Wtf does it matter? All legislation is just an enabling act now. Used to be if you could point to the letter of the law you had a defense, now king v Burwell shows that it doesn't matter what the law says, they do what they do and you dont have a say because they have the guys who are willing to use the guns. Trade treaties? Yeah so what? He will make sure his minions interprets the shit out of it and when you complain you'll get the "you and what army" answer.

354 I'll say it again: Boehner actually killed TPP.

I will give Boehner credit when he stands up publicly and takes credit. When he goes on camera and says 'yeah, this time we had to throw the CoC under the bus in order to protect the American working citizen', I will give him credit.

355 Let the other countries produce the goods that require low skill sets.
Posted by: SH at June 12, 2015 03:27 PM (gmeXX)

And what, doom our populace with low skill sets to joblessness? I remember in the 90's how manufacturing would go away, but we would be this great service economy. It's not working out because the manufacturing jobs (i.e. making stuff) drive the service economy.

356 Posted by: Caesar North of the Rubicon at June 12, 2015 03:45 PM (t2m1Y)

Yup...

the Big donors all want it passed...

It will Pass....

This is all just Kabuki Theatre...

357 288 237 226 ...I'd like to see where the Supreme Court has weighed in on this practice, if it ever has.

> "Why Certain Trade Agreements Are Approved as Congressional-Executive Agreements Rather Than Treaties": http://bit.ly/1Mwxr3

358 NO Fast Tracked Bill has ever been defeated once it
was Fast Tracked. We are not talking about a bill that was refused Fast
Track Status

Posted by: Nevergiveup at June 12, 2015 03:44 PM (/tNwW)

Why it's almost like our rulers have rigged the game!

359 Posted by: torquewrench at June 12, 2015 03:43 PM

I have a dream that one day people will look past party labels, and toss potential candidates on the dung-heap simply because, like Fiorina -- and, for that matter, Shrillery and Choom Boy -- they are incompetent, unprincipled pieces of shit.

If Republicans had any spine or showed any tendency to adhere to principles, they'd treat ol' Carly with all the seriousness with which they regarded Marvin Kitman's candidacy.

360 >>However they want this they should explain and sell it. Stop telling people to shut up and trust.


Doesn't work anymore. They don't like it, look in a mirror


Posted by: Thunder B, Shapeshifter at June 12, 2015 03:41 PM

---



>>^THIS


Seconded!!

361 #348 Hehe, no they won't go quietly but I'm sure we're worth more than them pound for pound. I think Ayn Rand argued that part well. We'd need a big fence.

362 I trust the GOP....to fuck us in the ass. To put a knife in the heart of America.

363 Between now and November 2016, a lot of people are going to spend a lot of time trying to figure out which Republicans are the good ones, and which are the bad ones.

To me, it's pretty much the same as what people say about Muslims. I'm done trying to sort them out. Yes, I know there are some good ones, but at some point YOU have to condemn the bad ones. YOU have to separate yourselves. We're not going to do that for you anymore. If you can't/won't do it, we'll just consider you as part of the problem. One of the enemy.

364 Sorry, Ace, but we have the Senate, House, and a good shot at the Presidency this fall, and we don't think we need you anymore.

365 Fuck me running, Ace just said everything I have been thinking but like pure poetry?
Thank you Ace and fuck you GOPe

366 "Breaking: NAACP Stands Behind Fake Black Leader RachelDolezal"

I still want to see the genetic test on former NAACP chief Ben Jealous.

367 Previous treaty has already caused a law change. It is no longer a requirement to label where the meat comes from.

Watched a show last night where they made fish sticks in norway from frozen blocks of chopped up fish from China.

368 I understand the theory and reason for TPA- Fast Track authority- BUT NOT WITH THIS PRESIDENT!
Posted by: Nevergiveup at June 12, 2015 02:56 PM (/tNwW)

I wouldn't give this President the authority to report on the class while Teacher is away.

369 This is your best column in a while, ace. It perfectly captures the mood of the furious voters who gave the GOP their votes only to have those votes thrown back at them in a flurry of insults.


Fuck 'em. I want fucking gridlock in Congress, with the only movement coming from a full repeal of Obamacare, Common Core, and the ritual horsewhipping of IRS, EPA, VA, and DOJ employees who have fucked over the country so badly.

370 And what, doom our populace with low skill sets to joblessness? I remember in the 90's how manufacturing would go away, but we would be this great service economy. It's not working out because the manufacturing jobs (i.e. making stuff) drive the service economy.

Posted by: Not Loved Time to be Feared at June 12, 2015 03:48 PM (nRvEn)


Yup... wealth is created by either Making something, or by adding value to something.

When you stop making actual wealth, you are just living off of momentum....

371 And what happened to the original reports that the
fast track bill would allow these agreements to be approved by Obama on
his own and then they would go into effect and to stop it the Senate had
to defeat the agreement by a 2/3 majority?


That was widely reported and you don't hear about it anymore.


Posted by: Vic We Have Nobody to vote for at June 12, 2015 03:00 PM (GpgJl)


I think that is the Senate bill on the Iran deal rather than the trade agreements (but it is all the SSDD).

372 To all asking to see it before they vote on it: Wtf does it matter? All legislation is just an enabling act now.

Posted by: allenlou

Because it's an indefensible argument. And those that are supposedly representing conservatives in Congress should not get away with bullshit in any form.

If you want to give up, give up.

373 Keep an eye open; you'll probably be surprised how prevalent this is.


Posted by: Sort-of-Mad Max at June 12, 2015 03:47 PM (DLu2s)

I first noticed that while I was sleeping, a virtual pound of coffee had somehow turned into 12 ounces of coffee!

374
> "Why Certain Trade Agreements Are Approved as Congressional-Executive Agreements Rather Than Treaties": http://bit.ly/1Mwxr3
Posted by: Miss80sBaby at June 12, 2015 03:48 PM (YjDyJ)

???
You post that, and yes I know it is true, like it is a "Good Thing".

375 GOP is in bed with the dems, pure and simple.

-----

I think it's more a threesome--the GOP and the Democrats are in bed with the same interests.

(It's not gay if it's in a threeway, right?)

376 ..."Keep an eye open; you'll probably be surprised how prevalent this is."
-Posted by: Sort-of-Mad Max at June 12, 2015 03:47 PM (DLu2s)

That's been happening since as far as I can remember. It has been on an accelerated drive for the past twenty years.

You can thank "extra-special" regulation for that.

...tucked-into most any bill that has passed since the early-to-mid Nineties.

377 If it burns down, and we all have guns, all of the liberals will burn and then we can make utopia right?
Posted by: Draki at June 12, 2015 03:43 PM (0eidE)

----

All kidding aside....


.... thats EXACTLY why they want our guns.

378





TPA Passes, But TAA Fails: Bill In Limbo


Apparently, for TPA (the fast track authority) to pass, it was necessary that the TAA pass alongside it, and the latter failed, so they're in limbo.

Some people whom I respect are arguing in favor of TPP (TPA is the legislation that puts it TPP fast track), and dispelling the myths about TPP spread on the internet.

(Post in progress; just wanted to get this up while I write the rest of it.)

Ted Cruz, for example, shocked his populist base and came out in support of TPA, noting that some things you read on the internet. Friend of the podcast Scott Lincicome dispelled some myths about the plan.

Here's what neither gentleman understands: We don't trust the GOP any longer.

Paul Ryan argues that there's no sense blocking the fast track authority because Congress will always get an up-or-down vote on the actual trade deal, whenever Obama deigns to share it with us.

He doesn't understand: We no longer trust the GOP. Yes, Mr. Ryan, the GOP will have another chance to weigh in on the TPP in its final form But we don't trust you to do the right thing then, just as we don't trust you to do the right thing now.

The GOP lies to us at every turn. They claim they're going to stop Obamacare, then they begin drawing up plans to affirmatively save the plan with subsidies should the Supreme Court strike it down.

They claim they will fight Obama like hungry dogs on immigration, then they approve it.

They claim they're against Obama's Iran deal-- then they pass a mechanism which allows the Iran deal to pass with just one third of the Senate, so that GOP Senators can vote "against" the bill while ultimately losing the vote -- thus being able to claim to their constituents "Well we tried, but goshdarnit, the other side just outvoted us with its one-third majority."

The GOP continues attempting to trick its base -- which it believes is, as the Washington Post said so long ago, is "poor, uneducated, and easily led'' -- with Failure Theater.

We don't trust you assholes. Period.

So yes, I concede: Voting in favor of TPA does not mean that TPP will pass automatically.

But I assume that TPP will pass automatically, when it comes up for a vote, because you've promised it to the Donor Class, and they're the only people who matter in the GOP.

The GOP Establishment made two promises on immigration, one to the Donor Class, and one to the gullible unfortunates it tricked into voting for them.

To the Donor Class, it promised they would leave Obama's amnesty undisturbed.

To the poor, uneducated, and easily led dupes of the voting base, they promised they'd fight the amnesty with all they had.

They told the truth to the Donor Class. They lied to us.

The GOP Establishment promised the Donor Class it would make no waves on Obamacare. The GOP Establishment promised its stupid, backwards, dirt-poor racist base that it would destroy Obamacare, once and for all.

They told the truth to the Donor Class. They lied to everyone else.

Now you've come to market again with, get this, a promise you've made to the Donor Class, and, get this, a promise you've made to everyone else.

Gee, I wonder who you've told the truth to this time?

Ergo, I'm going to insist you do this: Exactly nothing at all.

Until you recognize that you have lost our trust, and not because we're wacko-bird hobbits, but because you are lying about every single vote you take, and work to repair that trust by meeting with us and being straight for us for a change, we're going to continue to oppose everything you corrupt, corporate-payroll liars propose or do.

You do not respect us. You hold us in complete contempt. We are only dupes to be lied to, to be cadged into blessing the Donor Class' wishes.

And then you have the gall to come to us and say, "Trust us this time?"


Try us, motherfuckers. We are ready to form another party and consign you corrupt, racist, backwards, uneducated money-grubbing dolts to the fate of the Whigs.

I am ready to vote Democrat, just to spite you.

I am ready to burn it all down.

Try me. Try all of us.

History repeats.

It only repeats the bad parts, but it repeats.








Posted by: Ace at 02:52 PM








Comments




1 first

Posted by: Methos at June 12, 2015 02:53 PM (ZbV+0)

2 Woot, been a while since I got one of those.

Now, what are we talking about?


Posted by: Methos at June 12, 2015 02:53 PM (ZbV+0)

3 Please use the new cover sheet for all your TPA reports.

Posted by: chiefjaybob at June 12, 2015 02:54 PM (4CBaM)

4 It's a trap. Now dems will campaign that R's tried to pass this...blah blah blah


Posted by: tom-06060 at June 12, 2015 02:54 PM (z04hE)

5 The NYT article in the sidebar has a map showing the trade flows to and from the TPP countries. My cursory look says that well more than 90% of the dollars involved are already part of a multilateral (NAFTA, CAFTA) or bilateral trade treaty. And of course all the countries are in GATT. So what problem is it, exactly, that TPP is intended to solve that isn't already addressed somewhere else?


Posted by: Caesar North of the Rubicon at June 12, 2015 02:55 PM (t2m1Y)

6 Nobody knows what the Hell just happened. Non cogitamus ergo nihil sumus

Posted by: Bigby's Furtive Grope at June 12, 2015 02:55 PM (3ZtZW)

7 They are doing their damnedest to keep people in the dark with all these BS acronyms and multiple bills that are interlocking.


back when we still had people in congress that gave a shit for the voters we would have a treaty for trade deals. The treaty would go to the Senate for ratification. And then the implementing bills would go to congress as directed by the treaty.


We quit doing that some time ago.


Posted by: Vic We Have Nobody to vote for at June 12, 2015 02:55 PM (GpgJl)

8 (Post in progress; just wanted to get this up while I write the rest of it.)

So this is just a stomp-gap post?

Posted by: rickl at June 12, 2015 02:55 PM (zoehZ)

9 When do they vote on TIT and ASS?

Posted by: Roy at June 12, 2015 02:55 PM (VndSC)

10
Now, what are we talking about?
Posted by: Methos
...............................
After 100 comments, whatever we want, right?

Posted by: wth at June 12, 2015 02:55 PM (wAQA5)

11 trust in our betters in DC is gone. No more shit from the cool kids.


Posted by: Yip at June 12, 2015 02:55 PM (e7T6D)

12 Can't show the bill to the peasants. That is reason enough to vote it down. The Manchurian Candidates from Cuba support it.


Posted by: Boss Moss at June 12, 2015 02:55 PM (LLL5q)

13 I understand the theory and reason for TPA- Fast Track authority- BUT NOT WITH THIS PRESIDENT!

Posted by: Nevergiveup at June 12, 2015 02:56 PM (/tNwW)

14 Irrespective of the merits, GOP flubbed this.

Politically stupid to ram it thru now. Should hold town halls to persuade GOP voters.

Posted by: Y-not on the phone at June 12, 2015 02:56 PM (ZxV1A)

15 Yet we needed the fucking Democrats to save is from this shit.Yay majorities!

Posted by: steevy at June 12, 2015 02:56 PM (sPO3u)

16 As for that Federalist article it appears to be missing a lot of stuff that has gone out before, like all the bad shit in TPP one of which OBama has already admitted to.


I do not trust that article about myths.


Posted by: Vic We Have Nobody to vote for at June 12, 2015 02:56 PM (GpgJl)

17 Pelosi is right. Ryan is wrong. Up is down. Down is up.


Posted by: John Doe@AnotherQuidam at June 12, 2015 02:56 PM (g1MTt)

18 I don't understand any of this, but I'm sick of these guys trying to secretively ram through huge sweeping bills, period.


Posted by: Kensington at June 12, 2015 02:56 PM (7Kbxu)

19 TP for our bungholes?

Posted by: Lincolntf at June 12, 2015 02:56 PM (2cS/G)

20 Ogolfeline is a limp-wristed commie SCOAMF... why give him anything?



Posted by: the botnet at June 12, 2015 02:56 PM (ZEYe6)

21 Stunning Defeat

I like those words

-
If I were to go full optimist I'd think, Obama lost, Boehner lost, and McConnell lost. What's not to love?

Posted by: The Great White Snark at June 12, 2015 02:57 PM (XUKZU)

22 I don't understand any of this, but I'm sick of these guys trying to secretively ram through huge sweeping bills, period.
Posted by: Kensington at June 12, 2015 02:56 PM (7Kbxu)

bingo

Posted by: Nevergiveup at June 12, 2015 02:57 PM (/tNwW)

23 From what I've read unions have pretty much promised the D congress critters no money next year and primaries should the vote this through.

Posted by: wrg500 at June 12, 2015 02:57 PM (S+el1)

24 The fast track thing is just an agreement between congress and the president that congress won't try to amend or alter the Trans Pacific Partnership (TPP), right?

and Congress would still get a veto vote on whatever Obama puts in the TPP, right?

and the democrats just rejected the fast track authority by voting down the adjustment part, right?



Posted by: Aaron85 at June 12, 2015 02:57 PM (TUmPT)

25 I am stronger in favor of TA

Posted by: Buzzsaw90 at June 12, 2015 02:57 PM (/eTPT)

26 If I were to go full optimist I'd think, Obama lost, Boehner lost, and McConnell lost. What's not to love?
Posted by: The Great White Snark at June 12, 2015 02:57 PM (XUKZU)

Amen

Posted by: Nevergiveup at June 12, 2015 02:57 PM (/tNwW)

27 At this point I don't trust any one in either party.

Boehner and McConnel have got to go.

Having the GOP controlling both chambers has been a disaster.

It's actually worse than when they only controlled 1/3 of 1/3 of the government.

Posted by: Kreplach at June 12, 2015 02:57 PM (VRdqG)

28 Wait a year and a half for the bastard to leave.


Posted by: Boss Moss at June 12, 2015 02:57 PM (LLL5q)

29 The ppl arguing for TPP cannot resist insulting and blaming voters for resisting. Disastrous politics.

Posted by: Y-not on the phone at June 12, 2015 02:58 PM (ZxV1A)

30 You down with TPP?
(You can't read me)
Who's down with TPP?
(The GOPe)



Posted by: Haughty by Nature at June 12, 2015 02:58 PM (LF5/M)

31 9 When do they vote on TIT and ASS?
Posted by: Roy at June 12, 2015 02:55 PM (VndSC)
---
it passed on unanimous consent

Posted by: Buzzsaw90 at June 12, 2015 02:58 PM (/eTPT)

32 When the TPP passes, will TP become as scarce here as it is in Venezuela?


Posted by: Buzzsaw at June 12, 2015 02:58 PM (wrS2o)

33 Ladies and gentlemen, may I present the federal government's new logo:

A black box.


Posted by: Tex Lovera at June 12, 2015 02:58 PM (wtvvX)

34 Pelosi is right. Ryan is wrong. Up is down. Down is up.

-
White is black.

Posted by: The Great White Snark at June 12, 2015 02:59 PM (XUKZU)

35
I haven't followed this closely and Ipresume bullshit because Obama, but I am startled by the "conservatives" in the last thread who oppose free trade.

Free trade is good. This is axiomatic and also true. It doesn't have to be "fair", protectionism hurts the protectionist.

*clicks heels, about faces, and returns attention to The Rack*

Posted by: Bandersnatch, Lord Guardian, Protector, and Moisturizer to The Rack at June 12, 2015 02:59 PM (JtwS4)

36 So they passed just the TIP?


Posted by: Tex Lovera at June 12, 2015 02:59 PM (wtvvX)

37 Let them make EVERYTHING PUBLIC and wait a week or 2 so people can read it and then let's have a vote. Hey what a novel democratic idea?

Posted by: Nevergiveup at June 12, 2015 02:59 PM (/tNwW)

38 The next staffer or politician who proposes an acronym for a bill, especially a cutsie one, gets summarily executed wherever they stand. If they name a bill something that is the Alice in Wonderland opposite of what it really does, we also burn their damned house down.

Posted by: Dave at Buffalo Roam at June 12, 2015 02:59 PM (1HNqn)

39 Secret laws, the American way.

Posted by: just saying at June 12, 2015 02:59 PM (wkuqO)

40 Are secret bills part of that new transparency thing?


Posted by: Boss Moss at June 12, 2015 02:59 PM (LLL5q)

41 5

Their is a component in the trade bill that opens immigration. THAT is what Obama is trying to get. Pretty much open borders from what has been leaked out.

Posted by: wrg500 at June 12, 2015 03:00 PM (S+el1)

42 Pelosi is right. Ryan is wrong. Up is down. Down is up.

-
White is black.
Posted by: The Great White Snark at June 12, 2015 02:59 PM (XUKZU)

----

Men are girlz.

Posted by: !! CAITLYN !! at June 12, 2015 03:00 PM (8XRCm)

43 And what happened to the original reports that the fast track bill would allow these agreements to be approved by Obama on his own and then they would go into effect and to stop it the Senate had to defeat the agreement by a 2/3 majority?


That was widely reported and you don't hear about it anymore.


Posted by: Vic We Have Nobody to vote for at June 12, 2015 03:00 PM (GpgJl)

44 One myth is that the sooper-dooper secret TPP bill is in a House basement room inside a Gore-approved lockbox.


Posted by: mrp at June 12, 2015 03:00 PM (JBggj)

45 *sniffs deeply of New Thread Scent*

*goes and vomits on clean carpet*


Posted by: Moderate Salami's Cat at June 12, 2015 03:00 PM (/Ho8c)

46 No idea, but when I see "Stunning Defeat" and Obama in the same headline I figure it can't be all bad.


Posted by: tu3031 at June 12, 2015 03:00 PM (YFFpo)

47 I am all for stopping anything that Boner is trying to 'fast-track.' He can go over to the oval office and blow his hero on his own time.


Posted by: Sphynx at June 12, 2015 03:00 PM (yV1Xf)

48 but I am startled by the "conservatives" in the last thread who oppose free trade.

Free trade is good. This is axiomatic and also true. It doesn't have to be "fair", protectionism hurts the protectionist.

*clicks heels, about faces, and returns attention to The Rack*
Posted by: Bandersnatch, Lord Guardian, Protector, and Moisturizer to The Rack at June 12, 2015 02:59 PM (JtwS4)


Yes Free Trade Good, BUT WE DON'T TRUST FREDO. NOT NOW, NOT LATER, NOT NEVER, NO WAY, NO HOW, NEVER!

Posted by: Nevergiveup at June 12, 2015 03:00 PM (/tNwW)

49 The myth about TPP is that you need to use more than one square.

Posted by: Sheryl "Dingleberries" Crow at June 12, 2015 03:01 PM (wAQA5)

50 I believe Jeff Sessions more than I believe Scott Lincicome. Not that Linicicome is a bad guy, just that I'm more on the Sessions side of things.

Cherry picking one part of the article:

According to the anti-TPA script, the TPP is so secret that nobody knows what's in it, and-much like Obamacare legislation-nobody, not even Congress, will know what's in it until the agreement is passed into law

Then...

Second, USTR has provided "access to the full negotiating texts for any Member of Congress, including for Members to view at their convenience in the Capitol, accompanied by staff members with appropriate security clearance."

So if you need an appropriate security clearance to look at the text, how is it not secret?


This whole thing stinks, it requires me to trust Boehner and McConnell, and Obama's all over it. So that's three strikes as far as I'm concerned.

Posted by: VA GOP Sucks at June 12, 2015 03:01 PM (eytER)

51 When the myth becomes fact... pass the myth

Posted by: liberty valance at June 12, 2015 03:01 PM (/eTPT)

52 Comment of the day from the NYT article: "This country does not deserve Barack Obama, least of all Democrats.
Finally we get a brilliant, wise, thoughtful President who does not see
issues through a partisan lens, but always does what he knows to be best
for this country, and what does he get in return? Incessant opposition,
misjudgment and insults. What short memories people have! What
stupidity reigns in this country"

Well, at least we agree on the last sentence ...


Posted by: Kate58 at June 12, 2015 03:01 PM (oLZsm)

53 *clicks heels, about faces, and returns attention to The Rack*

Posted by: Bandersnatch, Lord Guardian, Protector, and Moisturizer to The Rack at June 12, 2015 02:59 PM (JtwS4)

*averts eyes* My I say the glisten magnificently.
*slowly backs out of the room*

Posted by: wrg500 at June 12, 2015 03:01 PM (S+el1)

54 Pretty much open borders from what has been leaked out.
Posted by: wrg500 at June 12, 2015 03:00 PM (S+el1)

----

My understanding is it gives INS the same regulatory rule making that the IRS, EPA, OSHA etc currently enjoy without needing legislation from Congress.



Posted by: fixerupper at June 12, 2015 03:01 PM (8XRCm)

55 I'm just a bill,
I'm just a bill.
Passing secretly on Capitol Hill....


Posted by: Tex Lovera at June 12, 2015 03:01 PM (wtvvX)

56 This whole thing stinks, it requires me to trust Boehner and McConnell, and Obama's all over it. So that's three strikes as far as I'm concerned.
Posted by: VA GOP Sucks at June 12, 2015 03:01 PM (eytER)

Exactly

Posted by: Nevergiveup at June 12, 2015 03:02 PM (/tNwW)

57 Where's the trust?

Posted by: Melvin Udall at June 12, 2015 03:02 PM (0k/27)

58 >>>(Post in progress; just wanted to get this up while I write the rest of it.)

Thread winner. Take the rest of the week off.

Posted by: Ronster at June 12, 2015 03:02 PM (8WDL/)

59 The problem I see with the advocates position is that their arguments is a series of shell games:

'The bills are good. Period. We can't tell you why because the bills need to be kept secret. But they're not secret after we pass them. So don't worry your pretty little head. Besides you're not against FREE TRADE, are you? You'd have to be a commie to be against FREE TRADE, right?'

...to say nothing of Paul Ryan's schizophrenic breakdown.



Posted by: weft cut-loop at June 12, 2015 03:02 PM (uctT+)

60 35 Posted by: Bandersnatch, Lord Guardian, Protector, and Moisturizer to The Rack at June 12, 2015 02:59 PM (JtwS4)


When was the last time one of these trade deals was "real" free trade? The US has got screwed on these deals every time for the past 30 or more years.


Posted by: Vic We Have Nobody to vote for at June 12, 2015 03:02 PM (GpgJl)

61 This whole thing stinks, it requires me to trust Boehner and McConnell, and Obama's all over it. So that's three strikes as far as I'm concerned.
Posted by: VA GOP Sucks at June 12, 2015 03:01 PM (eytER)

Exactly

Posted by: Nevergiveup at June 12, 2015 03:02 PM (/tNwW)

62 This series of bills may be a great thing, or a catastrophic failure. All I know for sure is that it appears the establishment of both parties is trying to force it through congress without letting people see or fully comprehend the second and third order effects. If that's the case, and I'm expected to just trust Obama, boehner and McConnell, then fuck them all, I'm glad it failed, and I hope to see more bills fail in congress until I see some leaders I trust.

Posted by: Grimaldi at June 12, 2015 03:02 PM (LbSW2)

63 It's in a lockbox your Social Security money.


Posted by: Boss Moss at June 12, 2015 03:02 PM (LLL5q)

64 I did a quick read of the TPA bill...

I did NOT see anywhere in that bill, where the TAA had to be in effect for the Prezzy to get fast track authority...

If someone can find that... please let me know... I'd LOVE to be wrong...

Posted by: BB Wolf at June 12, 2015 03:02 PM (qh617)

65 Ladies and gentlemen, may I present the federal government's new logo:A black box.
Posted by: Tex Lovera at June 12, 2015 02:58 PM (wtvvX)
---
i can be your model for the logo

Posted by: moocheles cooter at June 12, 2015 03:02 PM (/eTPT)

66 Racism at its worst...

best?

Oh hell. I'm just so confused.

Posted by: LoneStarHeeb at June 12, 2015 03:02 PM (BZAd3)

67 Fuck fast track.

When TPP is ready for us to see, then it can be debated and, if necessary, be amended.

Do you really trust this asshole in the White House to negotiate something that will HELP Americans?

Yeah.. me either.

Posted by: Chi-Town Jerry at June 12, 2015 03:02 PM (so+oy)

68 Well, at least one question was answered. We now know what was in Vincent and Jules's brief case, the true text of the TTPLGBTXYZ agreement.

Posted by: The Great White Snark at June 12, 2015 03:03 PM (XUKZU)

69 Free trade is good. This is axiomatic and also true. It doesn't have to be "fair", protectionism hurts the protectionist.

I like free trade. I don't think that's what this is.

Hell, just Wednesday I heard TFG talk about how he needed all of this to pressure countries like Malaysa into going along with the US on global warming. Don't comply with US requirements on carbon whatever, don't get trade access.

Sure don't sound free to me.

Posted by: VA GOP Sucks at June 12, 2015 03:03 PM (eytER)

70 They never could make the case of why now and why the rush. There are no pressing trade issues. The DC establishement has a huge credibility problem and it will only worsen as the butt-hurt losers drop dimes and make statements about idiot voters and critics. Screw them.


Posted by: Yip at June 12, 2015 03:03 PM (e7T6D)

71 My god for once I agree with Nancy Pelosi!

Posted by: keena at June 12, 2015 03:03 PM (RiTnx)

72 34 Pelosi is right. Ryan is wrong. Up is down. Down is up. - White is black.
Posted by: The Great White Snark at June 12, 2015 02:59 PM (XUKZU)
---
Word homie

Posted by: Rachel Dolezal at June 12, 2015 03:03 PM (/eTPT)

73 The house is not involved in approving treaties. This is an attempt to by pass Constitutional requirements for treaty approval. TPP will achieve this by pass.

Posted by: just saying at June 12, 2015 03:03 PM (wkuqO)

74 >>No idea, but when I see "Stunning Defeat" and Obama in the same headline I figure it can't be all bad.


OK, *that* I understand.
Agree wholeheartedly.


Posted by: Lizzy at June 12, 2015 03:03 PM (k2QA3)

75
My understanding is it gives INS the same regulatory rule making that the IRS, EPA, OSHA etc currently enjoy without needing legislation from Congress.



Posted by: fixerupper at June 12, 2015 03:01 PM (8XRCm)


And may very well give the EPA more power.... we don't know, because we have not seen the TEXT of the Treaty itself...

Posted by: BB Wolf at June 12, 2015 03:03 PM (qh617)

76 "The fast track thing is just an agreement between congress and the president that congress won't try to amend or alter the Trans Pacific Partnership (TPP), right?

and Congress would still get a veto vote on whatever Obama puts in the TPP, right?"


That's my understanding. Fast-track means that a treaty is presented to the Senate as a take-it-or-leave-it vote, no amending permitted. Otherwise the Senate could amend any treaty that has been presented, which would mean that the amendments would have to be sent out to the other signatories to the treaty for their approval.

With that I think it is clear why most presidents have sought fast track authority.

Posted by: Mikey NTH - The Outrage Outlet - Home of the Vulgar Boatman! at June 12, 2015 03:04 PM (hLRSq)

77 @62 .... said it better than I did. Preach it brother


Posted by: Yip at June 12, 2015 03:04 PM (e7T6D)

78 My guess is the TPP TAA bill is actually a list of ransom paymenys to whoever hacked the OPM.

Posted by: @votermom at June 12, 2015 03:04 PM (cbfNE)

79 "the democrats just rejected the fast track authority by voting down the adjustment part, right?"

Technically, the fast track authority is still alive, but the Senate would have to agree to do it without the worker adjustment assistance, which everyone is saying the D senators would never agree to, so it won't get brought up in the Senate. I'm not 100% confident on that chain of events. I could see enough of the Senate D's getting adjustment assistance put through in some other way that they could come around and give Ol' Mitch the votes to bring it to the floor.

And ironically, or maybe diabolically cynically, Boehner killed it by insisting that the adjustment assistance be paid for with cuts from Medicare. Honestly, everyone had to know that would never happen. The D's were willing to cut Medicare to pay for Obamacare, but that was a one-time fluke that squeaked by by a couple of votes when they had the leadership. There is no way that a majority of D's was ever going to vote to cut Medicare, so Boehner actually killed worker adjustment assistance, which probably killed fast-track trade promotion authority (although I still would shoot it with a silver bullet in addition to the stake in the heart), which may have killed TPP.


Posted by: Caesar North of the Rubicon at June 12, 2015 03:04 PM (t2m1Y)

80 Andrew McCarthy's stumping for TPA really undercuts the deep respect I have for him: on the one hand, he's argued that Obama has committed impeachable offenses, but here he thinks that it's no problem for Congress to give him enhanced authority above and beyond the Constitutional authority he already has and has systematically abused.

Posted by: Bubba at June 12, 2015 03:04 PM (bpn7O)

81 I did a quick read of the TPA bill...

I did NOT see anywhere in that bill, where the TAA had to be in effect for the Prezzy to get fast track authority...

If someone can find that... please let me know... I'd LOVE to be wrong...
Posted by: BB Wolf at June 12, 2015 03:02 PM (qh617)

The whole thing has to do with Senate and Congress Rules. I don't get what you have a problem with? Everyone in the Press, In the White House, in the Congress are all calling this a stunning Defeat for Fredo. THAT I believe. Chill

Posted by: Nevergiveup at June 12, 2015 03:04 PM (/tNwW)

82 "If I were to go full optimist I'd think, Obama lost, Boehner lost, and McConnell lost. What's not to love?"

Bela Pelosi also seems to have lost.

She tried to be on both sides of the fence simultaneously.

There will be some bad blood and long memories from that.

Debbie Washerwoman-Putz (remember her?) has been wanting to shiv Pelosi in the back for a while now.


Posted by: torquewrench at June 12, 2015 03:04 PM (noWW6)

83 okay post completed.



Posted by: ace at June 12, 2015 03:04 PM (PA7DS)

84 The chair is against the wall.

Posted by: Bob's House of Flannel Shirts and Wallet Chains at June 12, 2015 03:05 PM (vgIRn)

85 Try us, motherfuckers. We are ready to form another party and consign
you corrupt, racist, backwards, uneducated money-grubbing dolts to the
fate of the Whigs.

So. Much. This.


Posted by: Tex Lovera at June 12, 2015 03:05 PM (wtvvX)

86 So if you need an appropriate security clearance to look at the text, how is it not secret?
---
arrow us to exprain

Posted by: China at June 12, 2015 03:05 PM (/eTPT)

87 myths-about-trade

That's pretty much all bullshit. When you allow the products of foreign slave labor to be sold here without sufficient tariffs to offset the wage disparity, you are guaranteed to destroy jobs here. The people who don't lose their jobs get some cheaper products, but the rest wind up on the dole voting (D) out of practical necessity. If we ever want to right our economy all these trade deals that run at a deficit need to be ended.

If you want to trade with countries with similar standards of living, that's another matter, and has merit.

As for all the empty arguments about legal authority, the central issue here is that Congress has the power today to put a stop to TPP. Having given up their necks today, it is unlikely they will find the will to do their duty to the American people on any future play-pretend vote.


Posted by: Methos at June 12, 2015 03:05 PM (ZbV+0)

88
14 Irrespective of the merits, GOP flubbed this.

Politically stupid to ram it thru now. Should hold town halls to persuade GOP voters.
Posted by: Y-not on the phone at June 12, 2015 02:56 PM (ZxV1A)



Hahaha. They will never hold townhalls of any significance ever again. They know that their constituents are pissed at them and will get an earful and that might hurt their chance of getting reelected if video shows up of them getting schooled by one of the peasants.

Posted by: Buzzion at June 12, 2015 03:06 PM (z/Ubi)

89 Limbo (Latin limbus, edge or boundary, referring to the "edge" of Hell) is an afterlife condition of those who die without being assigned to the Hell of the Damned

Posted by: Thomas More at June 12, 2015 03:06 PM (e8kgV)

90 62 This series of bills may be a great thing, or a catastrophic failure. All I know for sure is that it appears the establishment of both parties is trying to force it through congress without letting people see or fully comprehend the second and third order effects. If that's the case, and I'm expected to just trust Obama, boehner and McConnell, then fuck them all, I'm glad it failed, and I hope to see more bills fail in congress until I see some leaders I trust.

Posted by: Grimaldi at June 12, 2015 03:02 PM (LbSW2)


THIS (X1000).

Posted by: 1bulwetweft at June 12, 2015 03:06 PM (nqiq9)

91 okay post completed.

And it's fucking GLORIOUS.

Posted by: VA GOP Sucks at June 12, 2015 03:06 PM (eytER)

92 Let them make EVERYTHING PUBLIC and wait a week or 2
so people can read it and then let's have a vote. Hey what a novel
democratic idea?

Posted by: Nevergiveup at June 12, 2015 02:59 PM

As far as I'm concerned, the fact that this aberrant pile of steaming pighshit ever got to a vote in either house of Congress is reason enough to load all 535 of the worthless sellouts on a bus, add Choom Boy, and trot them off posthaste to San Quentin or Dannemora.

I won't insist on the statutory punishment for treason: 75 years in solitary, no parole, will do.


Posted by: MrScribbler at June 12, 2015 03:07 PM (P8YHq)

93 (Post in progress; just wanted to get this up while I write the rest of it.)
---
i'm having unsettling thoughts about what the 'this' might be thats getting 'up'

Posted by: China at June 12, 2015 03:07 PM (/eTPT)

94 How many of you have read TPA?

TPA text: http://1.usa.gov/1Hva6zK


Posted by: Miss80sBaby at June 12, 2015 03:07 PM (YjDyJ)

95 64 I did NOT see anywhere in that bill, where the TAA had to be in effect for the Prezzy to get fast track authority...



If someone can find that... please let me know... I'd LOVE to be wrong...

Posted by: BB Wolf at June 12, 2015 03:02 PM (qh617)

TAA was supposed to be a sweetener to get the Democrats to vote for the Fast Track part. It was basically welfare for displaced workers. The thought was that if TAA did not pass then TPA would not pass either.


Posted by: Vic We Have Nobody to vote for at June 12, 2015 03:07 PM (GpgJl)

96 ACE best most concise Post yu ever had and I agree 100% ( well it was a quick read, but what I caught I agree with) especially the part about WE DON'T TRUST THE GOP anymore. Ribid! ( who knows what that reference is to?)

Posted by: Nevergiveup at June 12, 2015 03:07 PM (/tNwW)

97 Posted by: Nevergiveup at June 12, 2015 03:04 PM (/tNwW)

Read.... the .... bill....

Now, it will need to go back to the Senate, unless both Houses call for a conference report...

But the Bill itself (from a quick read)... which just passed the House... gave O fast track authority...

Now... if THAT passes the Senate cleanly... which it very well may....

Its a done deal...

Our only real hope was to stop this in the House.... as the Senate has been willing to cede their power to the O for quite awhile now.

Posted by: BB Wolf at June 12, 2015 03:08 PM (qh617)

98

I like free trade. I don't think that's what this is.

Hell, just Wednesday I heard TFG talk about how he needed all of this to pressure countries like Malaysa into going along with the US on global warming. Don't comply with US requirements on carbon whatever, don't get trade access.

Sure don't sound free to me.

Yeah yeah yeah yeah. I was defending actual free trade.

I presume that if Obama uses those words in that order he's lying and trying to achieve some other leftopian objective.

Posted by: Bandersnatch, Lord Guardian, Protector, and Moisturizer to The Rack at June 12, 2015 03:08 PM (JtwS4)

99 It shouldn't be this hard. Suspicious. And also anything Obama wants cannot be good for America.


Posted by: gracepmc at June 12, 2015 03:08 PM (xvd51)

100 What makes me smile is that it is Obama's own party that has screwed him over.

Posted by: Mikey NTH - The Outrage Outlet - Home of the Vulgar Boatman! at June 12, 2015 03:08 PM (hLRSq)

101 This is off-topic but does anyone have a picture of Colin Powell depicted as a gorilla that was displayed during the anti-war protests of the early 2000s? I think zombie had a picture of it on his site but he's got loads of stuff and I can't find it there.
I'm trying to counter this quote by Powell that says Republicans are all racist that every liberal puke I know has been posting on facebook.


Posted by: Captain Dogcock at June 12, 2015 03:08 PM (2aB+q)

102 Roll the Cubans and send them home.


Posted by: Boss Moss at June 12, 2015 03:08 PM (LLL5q)

103 Thank God you stupid nut cases are at the margins of the GOP, fooled by the noise you create in your internet echo chambers.

We don't care if you leave the party BUT if you are not committed to our party, BUTT OUT of our primary selection process. Start your own Pinhead Party.


Posted by: Adjoran at June 12, 2015 03:08 PM (QIQ6j)

104 Seminal, Ace.


Posted by: flounder at June 12, 2015 03:09 PM (ecDRv)

105 Posted by: BB Wolf at June 12, 2015 03:08 PM (qh617)

OK have it your way, but you seem to be the only one who thinks that. Sigh

Posted by: Nevergiveup at June 12, 2015 03:09 PM (/tNwW)

106
Ponder this.

The horde has much more talent, smarts, gumption and character than all Three Branches of Government combined.

What a shit stinking cluster fuck of a deal this must be if *we* cant make heads or tails of it.

Smell test status. FAIL

Posted by: fixerupper at June 12, 2015 03:09 PM (8XRCm)

107 Uh-oh. Ace is threatening to go Democrat on us again.


Posted by: Jane D'oh at June 12, 2015 03:09 PM (FsuaD)

108 It's one of the few times I agree with my Massachusetts Moonbats Rep Capuano, Ed Markey & Lizzy Warren!


Sorry to post & run, but I've got to go to two drugstores to fill prescriptions! It's August 22 law that zero pushed & made effective October 6, 2014. I hate zero & I don't hate anyone.


Posted by: Carol at June 12, 2015 03:09 PM (sj3Ax)

109 Have we ever lied to you?

- Barky, Boner, McTurtle, Pelosi, Reid

Posted by: The Great White Snark at June 12, 2015 03:09 PM (XUKZU)

110 Posted by: Vic We Have Nobody to vote for at June 12, 2015 03:07 PM (GpgJl)

If I understand this correctly...

Senate passed a bill with TAA and TPA in it... sent it to the House...

House split it... TAA failed... TPA passed.

Now, all that has to happen is Senate to vote on the already Passed TPA from the House.... which WILL Pass in the Senate IMO....

Posted by: BB Wolf at June 12, 2015 03:09 PM (qh617)

111 Seminal, Ace.
Posted by: flounder at June 12, 2015 03:09 PM (ecDRv)

----

**tosses Ace a tissue**

Posted by: fixerupper at June 12, 2015 03:09 PM (8XRCm)

112 Generally, speaking, I don't support anything from the government that does not give me details.

/so, when are they going to come out of the Star Chamber and talk to us peons? Or is that no longer necessary?


Posted by: shibumi who is awash in existential dread at June 12, 2015 03:09 PM (eV59V)

113 85 Try us, motherfuckers. We are ready to form another party and consign you corrupt, racist, backwards, uneducated money-grubbing dolts to the fate of the Whigs.

Yes. My only contention is why you do not feel they are "trying" you now? If what they've done in the last 6 months alone isn't enough to get a 3rd party initiated, then I have to wonder whether it will EVER happen.


Posted by: 1bulwetweft at June 12, 2015 03:10 PM (nqiq9)

114 Free trade means more free shit, right?

Posted by: Obama Voter at June 12, 2015 03:10 PM (wAQA5)

115 Amen, Ace! Speak truth to power!

Posted by: Agent J at June 12, 2015 03:10 PM (Mc6vz)

116 I did NOT see anywhere in that bill, where the TAA had to be in effect for the Prezzy to get fast track authority...



If someone can find that... please let me know... I'd LOVE to be wrong...

Posted by: BB Wolf at June 12, 2015 03:02 PM (qh617)

It's not there. It's just the assumption people are making about the D senators, that without TAA they would never vote for TPA. TPA has gone over to the Senate now, and it needs some D votes to pass. As I said above, I'm not 100% confident all those assumptions are true.


Posted by: Caesar North of the Rubicon at June 12, 2015 03:10 PM (t2m1Y)

117 76 That's my understanding. Fast-track means that a
treaty is presented to the Senate as a take-it-or-leave-it vote, no
amending permitted. Otherwise the Senate could amend any treaty that
has been presented, which would mean that the amendments would have to
be sent out to the other signatories to the treaty for their approval.



With that I think it is clear why most presidents have sought fast track authority.

Posted by: Mikey NTH - The Outrage Outlet - Home of the Vulgar Boatman! at June 12, 2015 03:04 PM (hLRSq)


That is not the info that was originally put out. What was said back months ago was that Obama would approve it on his own and if Congress did not like it the Senate would have to defeat it by a 2/3 vote. The exact opposite of what te Constitution says for a treaty.


Posted by: Vic We Have Nobody to vote for at June 12, 2015 03:10 PM (GpgJl)

118 >>>>Paul Ryan argues that there's no sense blocking the fast track authority because Congress will always get an up-or-down vote on the actual trade deal, whenever Obama deigns to share it with us.




Yeah and votes for cloture are just votes to end debate in the senate and not the vote that will actually decide if something passes or some appointee is confirmed.

Posted by: Buzzion at June 12, 2015 03:10 PM (z/Ubi)

119 Uh-oh. Ace is threatening to go Democrat on us again.
Posted by: Jane D'oh at June 12, 2015 03:09 PM (FsuaD)

He's just pissed like the rest of us and is going a little Cleavon Little on us. Rest assured he is OK

Posted by: Nevergiveup at June 12, 2015 03:10 PM (/tNwW)

120 "I'm glad it failed, and I hope to see more bills fail in congress until I see some leaders I trust."

The sad part about all this is the expansion of the long list of those whom I now actively distrust.

Looking at Scott Walker and Ted Cruz here.

I really am going to have trouble voting for anyone whose stance on Obamatrade was anything other than "Not just 'no', but HELL, NO."


Posted by: torquewrench at June 12, 2015 03:11 PM (noWW6)

121 Ace,

I haven't trusted the GOP in decades.

It's just a tool to use if you want, and that others will try to use as well.

Posted by: The Political Hat at June 12, 2015 03:11 PM (7YlUk)

122 [applause]

Good Post.


Posted by: Aaron85 at June 12, 2015 03:11 PM (TUmPT)

123 105 Posted by: BB Wolf at June 12, 2015 03:08 PM (qh617)

OK have it your way, but you seem to be the only one who thinks that. Sigh

Posted by: Nevergiveup at June 12, 2015 03:09 PM (/tNwW)


Gonna change my nick to Cassandra.... /smile

Posted by: BB Wolf at June 12, 2015 03:11 PM (qh617)

124 Come to me.... trust me... I wouldn't harm a soul.

Posted by: Hillary Clinton at June 12, 2015 03:12 PM (UhRGU)

125 87 As for all the empty arguments about legal authority, the central issue here is that Congress has the power today to put a stop to TPP. Having given up their necks today, it is unlikely they will find the will to do their duty to the American people on any future play-pretend vote.

> Either body can stop TPA any time they want with a vote started by the committees overseeing trade. Congress can also refuse to hold a vote on any trade deal. Pelosi did that with the Colombia Trade Pact in 2008.


Posted by: Miss80sBaby at June 12, 2015 03:12 PM (YjDyJ)

126 Thank God you stupid nut cases are at the margins of the GOP, fooled by the noise you create in your internet echo chambers.

We don't care if you leave the party BUT if you are not committed to our party, BUTT OUT of our primary selection process. Start your own Pinhead Party.

-
Don't worry. I'm sure you'll get another chance to fuck someone up the ass.

Posted by: The Great White Snark at June 12, 2015 03:12 PM (XUKZU)

127 "Mommy, I just saw the guy daddy calls 'Spokes Bitch' on T.V. What does 'SNAFU' stand for??"

Posted by: Malaria Obama at June 12, 2015 03:12 PM (5buP

128 Listen to VB at:
Www.howiecarrshow.com

Jeff Sessions thinks some republicans will turn for Tuesday's vote!!

Posted by: Carol at June 12, 2015 03:12 PM (sj3Ax)

129

Well.... maybe if we toss more teabaggers overboard....

Posted by: fixerupper at June 12, 2015 03:12 PM (8XRCm)

130 "Elect us to a majority and we'll repeal the ACA"
double swear, cross our hearts and hope to die we will

Posted by: Mr Wizard at June 12, 2015 03:12 PM (eOpVe)

131

Posted by: Nevergiveup at June 12, 2015 03:09 PM (/tNwW)


Gonna change my nick to Cassandra.... /smile
Posted by: BB Wolf at June 12, 2015 03:11 PM (qh617)


By the way the rules of the Senate and House are sos fucked up, for all I know, you may be right. But yeah either way, us regular people are probably going to get fucked.

Posted by: Nevergiveup at June 12, 2015 03:12 PM (/tNwW)

132 Let them make EVERYTHING PUBLIC and wait a week or 2
so people can read it and then let's have a vote. Hey what a novel
democratic idea?

Posted by: Nevergiveup

Didn't TFG run on transparency and putting all bills online for people to read n' sht?

Completely out of control.

Insert AllenG's mantra here.


Posted by: Moderate Salami at June 12, 2015 03:13 PM (/Ho8c)

133 Beautiful post.

Posted by: Ricardo Kill at June 12, 2015 03:13 PM (LA7Cm)

134 Free trade means no tariffs on imports. The third world scum still imposes tariffs on our goods. They just call their tariffs value added taxes.


Posted by: Boss Moss at June 12, 2015 03:13 PM (LLL5q)

135 my guide in this kind of matter is that every deal Obama makes gives someone else the prizes and we get the "Thank you for participating and being a good sport, loser".



Posted by: mallfly at June 12, 2015 03:13 PM (qSIlh)

136 I trust Jeff Sessions only on this one!

Posted by: Carol at June 12, 2015 03:13 PM (sj3Ax)

137 Has the vote threshold changed?


Posted by: Boss Moss at June 12, 2015 03:14 PM (LLL5q)

138 Try us, motherfuckers. We are ready to form another party and consign
you corrupt, racist, backwards, uneducated money-grubbing dolts to the
fate of the Whigs....

Righteous rant, Ace!!!!
Bravo!


Posted by: Lizzy at June 12, 2015 03:14 PM (k2QA3)

139 Thank God you stupid nut cases are at the margins of the GOP, fooled by the noise you create in your internet echo chambers.

---

Hey asshole.... in case you havent noticed.... the entire GOP is pretty fucking marginal right now.

Posted by: fixerupper at June 12, 2015 03:14 PM (8XRCm)

140 Boehner has a primary opponent, JD Winteregg. I'm tossing some money his way no matter what. I'm not vetting him because he passes the only test that matters: he's not John Boehner.

Boehner, McCarthy, Scalise, McMorris-Rogers and Ryan need to go. It might be impossible to get them out via primary, so the Dems will need to run serious candidates (I think Boehner was unopposed last time).

Posted by: Emmett Milbarge at June 12, 2015 03:14 PM (nFdGS)

141 I trust Jeff Sessions only on this one!
Posted by: Carol at June 12, 2015 03:13 PM (sj3Ax)

I trust only in G-D and sometimes I have doubts about him

Posted by: Job at June 12, 2015 03:14 PM (/tNwW)

142
94 How many of you have read TPA?

TPA text: http://1.usa.gov/1Hva6zK
Posted by: Miss80sBaby at June 12, 2015 03:07 PM (YjDyJ)


Honestly, high establishment hack in congress are you employed by?

Posted by: Buzzion at June 12, 2015 03:14 PM (z/Ubi)

143 Who doesn't like a little T&A?

Posted by: Jenn Sterger Playmate Jan 2013 at June 12, 2015 03:14 PM (UhRGU)

144 >>>
That's my understanding. Fast-track means that a treaty is presented to the Senate as a take-it-or-leave-it vote, no amending permitted. Otherwise the Senate could amend any treaty that has been presented, which would mean that the amendments would have to be sent out to the other signatories to the treaty for their approval.


yes, fast-track just means amendments cannot be proposed; all deals like this can be henpecked to literal death (that is, they can't pass) by one yahoo after another proposing an amendment Like "I want a guaranted that not a single job will be lost due to this, and if a single job is lost, the bill is repealed."

Shit that the yahoos would go for (because it sounds good in a soundbite) but is so stupid.

So fast-track protects the bill as presented. You get one vote: Yes to all, or No to all.

It is not a guarantee that it will pass... but obviously the point of it is to help TPP pass.



Posted by: ace at June 12, 2015 03:14 PM (PA7DS)

145 Which establishment hack*

Posted by: Buzzion at June 12, 2015 03:15 PM (z/Ubi)

146 voting Democrat won't spite the Republicans. It's cutting off your nose to spite your face. Better to vote libertarian or conservative or some other third party.

Posted by: Throat Wobbler Mangrove at June 12, 2015 03:15 PM (1qnVu)

147 Ace,

Well, I agree. My republican representative has inspired me to not just stay home but to vote in the general against him. I guess that means voting for their friends on the other side of the isle.

Posted by: just saying at June 12, 2015 03:15 PM (wkuqO)

148 We don't care if you leave the party BUT if you are not committed to our party, BUTT OUT of our primary selection process. Start your own Pinhead Party.

No. I plan to vote in your primary because I can. Cry about it.

Posted by: Bevel Lemelisk at June 12, 2015 03:16 PM (Fcca6)

149 Awesome post.

Posted by: Hotspur at June 12, 2015 03:16 PM (5cgIv)

150 fast-track just means amendments cannot be proposed; all deals like this can be henpecked to literal death (that is, they can't pass) by one yahoo after another proposing an amendment Like "I want a guaranted that not a single job will be lost due to this, and if a single job is lost, the bill is repealed."

Shit that the yahoos would go for (because it sounds good in a soundbite) but is so stupid.

So fast-track protects the bill as presented. You get one vote: Yes to all, or No to all.

It is not a guarantee that it will pass... but obviously the point of it is to help TPP pass.

Posted by: ace at June 12, 2015 03:14 PM (PA7DS)

1) NO Fast Tracked Bill has ever been defeated after it was fast tracked

2) We don't know what else is the Fast Track Authorization since it is Secret and THAT worries me more than the Fast Track Authorization

Posted by: Nevergiveup at June 12, 2015 03:16 PM (/tNwW)

151 After going over to Breitbart and reading about the votes, it turns out that my tool of a Congressperson, Sander 'I'll Be Here Till I Die' Levin of Union Distrct, MI was actually a leader in the fight against this.

/we are in opposite world now...


Posted by: shibumi who is awash in existential dread at June 12, 2015 03:16 PM (eV59V)

152 Looking at Scott Walker and Ted Cruz here.



I really am going to have trouble voting for anyone whose stance on
Obamatrade was anything other than "Not just 'no', but HELL, NO."



Posted by: torquewrench at June 12, 2015 03:11 PM (noWW6)

I think what was behind their support is that they are thinking of themselves as future Presidents, and anything that constrains the Presidency is something they don't want to get behind for fear it will come back to haunt them later.


Posted by: Caesar North of the Rubicon at June 12, 2015 03:16 PM (t2m1Y)

153 We don't care if you leave the party BUT if you are not committed to our party, BUTT OUT of our primary selection process. Start your own Pinhead Party.

---

Who knew Karl Rove posted here.

Posted by: fixerupper at June 12, 2015 03:17 PM (8XRCm)

154 Ace - well said.

The TPA vote (by itself) doesn't fundamentally change anything. But it certainly sends a signal. And I agree it is a signal less that we don't trust Obama - more that we don't trust the GOP Congress.



Posted by: SH at June 12, 2015 03:17 PM (gmeXX)

155 but obviously the point of it is to help TPP pass.



And with our current crop of yawhoo's scares the crap out of me for one.

Posted by: wrg500 at June 12, 2015 03:17 PM (S+el1)

156 Hey remember how we needed to vote for the republicans because we needed the senate. Because they problem was that Boehner was actually passing all these awesome bills but Harry Reid was just refusing to allow them to come up for a vote in the senate. So we needed the senate so these great bills would finally be passed in the senate and it would actually force Obama to sign or veto them and put him on the spot.


Yeah that's really happening isn't it.

Posted by: Buzzion at June 12, 2015 03:18 PM (z/Ubi)

157 My Congressman Scott Garrett (R) voted with us
He is a pretty good guy

Posted by: Nevergiveup at June 12, 2015 03:18 PM (/tNwW)

158 I am ready to vote Democrat, just to spite you.

How much spite is that in metric?

I'm not ready to sign up for hellfire by proxy yet but I may be too busy picking my nose to walk a block to the polls.

Posted by: DaveA at June 12, 2015 03:18 PM (DL2i+)

159 Could not have said it better.

Bravo, Ace!

I'm amazed that even Pelosi gets it, yet these guys can't.


Posted by: Jakee308 at June 12, 2015 03:18 PM (zRby/)

160 >>Ergo, I'm going to insist you do this: Exactly nothing at all.

THIS.

The *conservative* thing to do when faced with a grossly unpopular bill running up to an election is to DO NOTHING... at least not until you've held town halls with the people who elected and whom you need for the next election.


It occurs to me that the GOP leadership (and their cheerleading squad) is so bad that even in defeat Obama gets a victory simply b/c of the further damage in the trust btwn GOP voters and their elected officials.

I don't think the GOP cheerleaders realize how much damage they do to their own cause - and to our (I thought) SHARED CAUSE of winning the WH - when they insult the voters for not going along with this clusterfark. I read so many insulting tweets from people that I respect (or respected) referring to opposition to TPA/TPP etc as a "clown show" and basically calling us stupid.

Hey, a-holes, I was undecided until you started hurling the insults.

The GOP only fights when it helps their corporate patrons. The rest of the time, when it's a matter of principle of importance to the base, they roll over.

Posted by: Y-not at June 12, 2015 03:18 PM (RWGcK)

161 "This bill improves health carefree trade! You're not against health care free trade, are you????"

Posted by: weft cut-loop at June 12, 2015 03:18 PM (uctT+)

162 /we are in opposite world now...

Call me a conspiracy nut, but I wouldn't be a bit surprised if this is all staged to further destroy confidence in our govt, so when the totalitarian "fix" comes, people will shrug their shoulders and say "can't be worse than what we have now".

Posted by: 1bulwetweft at June 12, 2015 03:18 PM (nqiq9)

163 That's my understanding. Fast-track means that a treaty is presented to the Senate as a take-it-or-leave-it vote, no amending permitted.

----

I'm not sure how fast tracking does this. Fast tracking cannot change the Constitution. The Senate cannot be bound by this fast tracking legislation on its future ability to advise and consent on a treaty.

Posted by: SH at June 12, 2015 03:18 PM (gmeXX)

164 76 "The fast track thing is just an agreement between congress and the president that congress won't try to amend or alter the Trans Pacific Partnership (TPP), right?

and Congress would still get a veto vote on whatever Obama puts in the TPP, right?"

> It is much more than that. Congress uses the TPA to outline their what they do and do not wish to see in a trade deal and place certain requirements on an Administration with regards to any future trade deals. One such requirement is that the president is required to consult with and inform not only Congress but the private sector regarding ongoing negotiations.


Posted by: Miss80sBaby at June 12, 2015 03:19 PM (YjDyJ)

165 Pinhead Party.

Who knew Karl Rove posted here.

Posted by: fixerupper at June 12, 2015 03:17 PM (8XRCm)

More like Bill O'Rielly

Posted by: wrg500 at June 12, 2015 03:19 PM (S+el1)

166 Posted by: ace at June 12, 2015 03:14 PM (PA7DS)

But its also a straight up or down vote... a simple majority... not the 2/3ds the Constitution calls for...

How a LAW can over ride the REQUIRMENT of the Constitution, I still don't understand... but it seems to.

Posted by: BB Wolf at June 12, 2015 03:19 PM (qh617)

167 I understand the reasoning for the TPA. However, can anyone define the general goals of the treaty for which TPA is requested? I mean beyond the "IT'S FREE TRADE!!!!11!!!"

Plus, when it comes to the Federalist talking about immigration or trade, they are not a source I go to. The issue, as Ace points out, is that people don't trust government with these deals. Remember NAFTA was supposed to make North America into this great economic powerhouse and stop illegal immigration. Instead more illegal immigration and China has passed us up. And you can go on with a lot of the other trade deals.

Posted by: Not Loved Time to be Feared at June 12, 2015 03:19 PM (nRvEn)

168 Give the GOPe the angry Centimeter


Posted by: Boss Moss at June 12, 2015 03:19 PM (LLL5q)

169 Speaking of great rants about corrupt and self-serving politicians, here is Rand Simberg on Richard Shelby:

http://www.transterrestrial.com/?p=60874

Posted by: rickl at June 12, 2015 03:19 PM (zoehZ)

170 I think what was behind their support is that they are thinking of themselves as future Presidents, and anything that constrains the Presidency is something they don't want to get behind for fear it will come back to haunt them later.

Bingo.

The problem with Republics is that everybody sees themselves as being the top dog someday, so they vote to give the top dog more power.

The executive grew into a full-blown dictator in the 20th century.

Posted by: Bevel Lemelisk at June 12, 2015 03:19 PM (Fcca6)

171 Free trade is good.

No it isn't.

Free Trade between nations with similar standards of living (say, us, Canada, Japan, Germany) is good because it expands the choice of goods.

Free Trade between nations with disparate standards of living can only result in an averaging of those standards, because employers, not being stupid, will move to where the cheap labor is as quickly as they can manage. Averaging us with 'dirt poor' long enough will make us 'dirt poor' as well.

Unless you want to believe we can go on trading green strips of cotton with pictures of dead presidents 1s and 0s representing pieces of green cotton with pictures of dead presidents for actual stuff forever, while managing a majority of the population with nothing constructive to do. In that case go on supporting DC and the CoC.


Posted by: Methos at June 12, 2015 03:19 PM (ZbV+0)

172 'Fast track' is bad. Debate is part of the process - a positive part of it. It requires taking time to think/analyze/discuss/evaluate before making a decision.



Posted by: *blank* at June 12, 2015 03:20 PM (UhRGU)

173 Gosh, everyone on Fox Business channel says TPP is wonderful.


Posted by: Bertram Cabot Jr. at June 12, 2015 03:20 PM (W5DcG)

174 Federal Constitutional Party! Or Fuck Commies for short.

Posted by: Draki at June 12, 2015 03:20 PM (0eidE)

175 Why give up the 2/3 part?


Posted by: Boss Moss at June 12, 2015 03:20 PM (LLL5q)

176 OT but at least more good news and we need that:

About face: Pentagon rules La. guardsman who died in chopper crash can be buried at Arlington

Posted by: Nevergiveup at June 12, 2015 03:20 PM (/tNwW)

177 "Yeah that's really happening isn't it."

I won't do it again.

Posted by: Ricardo Kill at June 12, 2015 03:20 PM (LA7Cm)

178 White is black.

Posted by: The Great White Snark at June 12, 2015 02:59 PM (XUKZU)


You got that right brother.

Posted by: Rachel Dolezal at June 12, 2015 03:20 PM (JOG+K)

179 I'm amazed that even Pelosi gets it, yet these guys can't.

---

id ease up on the Pelosi praise.

The only thing that Pelosi "gets" on this is sweet sweet union graffe to vote "nay".

If you think she finally found her conscience and doing right by 'Merica.... well ... I cant help you.

Posted by: fixerupper at June 12, 2015 03:20 PM (8XRCm)

180 I see the trolls have moved in.


Posted by: Vic We Have Nobody to vote for at June 12, 2015 03:20 PM (GpgJl)

181 And Cruz, Walker have shot themselves in the foot.


Posted by: Jakee308 at June 12, 2015 03:20 PM (zRby/)

182 "Try us, motherfuckers. We are ready to form another party and consign you corrupt, racist, backwards, uneducated money-grubbing dolts to the fate of the Whigs.
I am ready to vote Democrat, just to spite you.
I am ready to burn it all down.
Try me. Try all of us.
History repeats.
It only repeats the bad parts, but it repeats."

I'm going to hug this statement for a moment and then just let it go. For if it is true love, it will come back to me at my local voting venue.

...and for those who were confused about the (T) in my "autograph"-? It is not an (R), nor is it a (D).

I'd like to see more of these showing up locally. I'd LOVE to see more of them showing up Federally!



Posted by: ColdBeer1 (Slap) (T) at June 12, 2015 03:20 PM (OQ9R7)

183 *blink* Pelosi on Fox just agreed with us.


Posted by: Jane D'oh at June 12, 2015 03:21 PM (FsuaD)

184 I'll say it again: Boehner actually killed TPP. He insisted that worker adjustment assistance had to be paid for under the sequester rules, and offered Medicare cuts as the bill payer. There is no way the Democrats were going to vote for that. Cutting Medicare to pay for Obamacare was a one-time fluke that only passed by a couple of votes when they had a big majority. So fast-track TPA is now going over to the Senate without TAA (worker adjustment assistance), which again is (hopefully) a poison pill for the Senate D's, and this is the end of TPP.


Posted by: Caesar North of the Rubicon at June 12, 2015 03:21 PM (t2m1Y)

185 If Bush proposed a bill that said sunny days are better than rainy days, Pelosi / Reid would do everything they could to block it.

When Obama proposes a bill that will forever change immigration and trade laws, Boner and Bitch McConnell do everything they can to help him out.

And people wonder why the left wins every fucking battle.

Posted by: HUCK / AKIN 2016 at June 12, 2015 03:21 PM (0LHZx)

186 Posted by: Miss80sBaby at June 12, 2015 03:12 PM (YjDyJ)


Unlike ace, I implicitly trust Boehner, Ryan, McConnell et al to do their Constitutional duty and protect citizens (even the citizens that can't make big campaign contributions or hire their family members), so I'm sure they and their principled Establishment friends will fight tooth and nail to stop any untoward illegal or questionable activities related to this trade agreement in the future,



just like they have so many times before!



That said, I sure would like to see some of the transaction details of those Congressional bank accounts, especially the Caymans ones!


Posted by: Hrothgar at June 12, 2015 03:21 PM (ftVQq)

187 How a LAW can over ride the REQUIRMENT of the Constitution, I still don't understand... but it seems to.

-----

No it cannot. But I guess it depends on what is a "treaty" and if Congress is willing to cede its turf then who is going to stop them?

Posted by: SH at June 12, 2015 03:21 PM (gmeXX)

188 id ease up on the Pelosi praise.

The only thing that Pelosi "gets" on this is sweet sweet union graffe to vote "nay".

If you think she finally found her conscience and doing right by 'Merica.... well ... I cant help you.
Posted by: fixerupper at June 12, 2015 03:20 PM (8XRCm)

Absolutely. Pelosi is like one of those Pigs in Animal Farm and all she wants is a bigger trough to feed from

Posted by: Nevergiveup at June 12, 2015 03:21 PM (/tNwW)

189 Don't vote, vote third-party, whatever. But if you vote for the Party of Sharpton and Obama and expect better results than the Party of Cruz and Perry, well then, you're not doing yourself or your country any good. I kow that the self-indulgent despair of "Let it Burn" attracts people, but that flame will burn you. Even the "Occupy" tards knew that.

Posted by: Lincolntf at June 12, 2015 03:22 PM (2cS/G)

190 173
Gosh, everyone on Fox Business channel says TPP is wonderful.



Posted by: Bertram Cabot Jr. at June 12, 2015 03:20 PM (W5DcG)

That is because corporate America is all for it because it has provisions to allow unlimited immigration of cheap labor. This is why the RNCe is pushing it and the Unions are against it.


Posted by: Vic We Have Nobody to vote for at June 12, 2015 03:22 PM (GpgJl)

191 If this thing of Obama's goes down, brought down by the unions who seem to have turned against Obama, that's going to make him a lame duck with 18 months to go.



Posted by: Aaron85 at June 12, 2015 03:22 PM (TUmPT)

192 I understand the reasoning for the TPA. However, can anyone define the general goals of the treaty for which TPA is requested? I mean beyond the "IT'S FREE TRADE!!!!11!!!"
---

Well, one interesting component is that Obama signaled that he was open to letting China into the TPP. You know, the ones who have all of his (and many of our) personal info.

I question the timing, frankly.

Posted by: Y-not at June 12, 2015 03:22 PM (RWGcK)

193 Free Trade between nations with disparate standards of living can only result in an averaging of those standards, because employers, not being stupid, will move to where the cheap labor is as quickly as they can manage.

-----

I'm not sure why that isn't good. I'd rather buy products made cheaply.

Posted by: SH at June 12, 2015 03:23 PM (gmeXX)

194 I've noticed Ted Cruz has gotten really, really quiet these last few days.
Bastard.

When somebody tells you who they are, believe them.


Posted by: Clutch Cargo at June 12, 2015 03:23 PM (sH832)

195 This is all about immigration. How to give amnesty without having to get it through without Congress


It's giving someone else permission to do it

Posted by: Thunder B, Shapeshifter at June 12, 2015 03:23 PM (Td7ET)

196 150 1) NO Fast Tracked Bill has ever been defeated after it was fast tracked



@ChadPergram 2h Pelosi on trade: We've rejected Fast Track before.

2) We don't know what else is the Fast Track Authorization since it is Secret and THAT worries me more than the Fast Track Authorization




Posted by: Miss80sBaby at June 12, 2015 03:23 PM (YjDyJ)

197 federal government's new logo:

A black box.

Posted by: Tex Lovera at June 12, 2015 02:58 PM (wtvvX)

Um Barry don't do black boxes. IYKWIMAITYD

Posted by: Reggie Love at June 12, 2015 03:23 PM (JOG+K)

198 189 Don't vote, vote third-party, whatever. But if you vote for the Party of Sharpton and Obama and expect better results than the Party of Cruz and Perry, well then, you're not doing yourself or your country any good. I kow that the self-indulgent despair of "Let it Burn" attracts people, but that flame will burn you. Even the "Occupy" tards knew that.
Posted by: Lincolntf at June 12, 2015 03:22 PM (2cS/G)


Nothing lasts forever my friend.

Posted by: just saying at June 12, 2015 03:23 PM (wkuqO)

199 Isn't Paul Ryan the smarty-pants who, instead of pushing a continuing re

379 I wouldn't give this President the authority to report on the class while Teacher is away.

Posted by: troyriser at June 12, 2015 03:50 PM (XHR9b)
I wouldn't trust this President in a shit house with a muzzle on.

380 Unless we pass the TPA and TAA there will be no Choo-Choo across the pacific. We need the trans pacific Choo-Choo for American manufacturing jobs.

381 Keep an eye open; you'll probably be surprised how prevalent this is.


Posted by: Sort-of-Mad Max at June 12, 2015 03:47 PM (DLu2s)

My wife and I start keeping a list of reduction in volume compared to price. It's all through the grocery store.

382 If the base stays home and the republicans don't get reelected they will have to become lobbyists.

383 If the base stays home and the republicans don't get reelected they will have to become lobbyists.

384 "I remember in the 90's how manufacturing would go away, but we would be this great service economy."

Actually, as I recall it, the Clintonite proposition (as voiced by the Robert Reich types) was that laid-off manufacturing workers would be magically RETRAINED with a wave of the federal wand for even higher-skill, higher-value-added jobs. Such as software engineering.

As if on cue, software engineers thereafter began to be replaced by imported immigrant workers.

385 You're Dixiecrats.

Posted by: John Thacker

*points and laughs*

Posted by: weft cut-loopYee-haw.

386 and.... to the barrel.... damn...

387 Let chaos reign,

The Turd Sandwich vs. Giant Douche contest has gotten tedious.

388 FEED ME!!!!!

389 Epic re-posting, BB.

390 I'm not sure why that isn't good. I'd rather buy products made cheaply.

Posted by: SH at June 12, 2015 03:23 PM (gmeXX)

It's good for you right up until it's your job that get's vaporized. Then you join the people wringing their hands about why government can't provide more jobs.

391 Hey Ace?

Welcome to the party pal.

I figured this out a few years ago and people were calling my an asshole for pointing out the obvious.

Not the only one.

( points at sign reading "Cavil Party Est. 2012" )

Now let's quit obsessing about the Grand Old Traitors and start figuring out how to get from here to something at least tolerable, forget utopia.

Which, might I remind, literally means: "No Place".

392 This is pretty clever, the Marco Polo shirt for sale.

https://store.marcorubio.com/

393 BB Wolf, meet barrel; Barrel, BB Wolf. Play nice, now.

394 Posted by: BB Wolf at June 12, 2015 03:52 PM (qh617)

O_o

That's a full barrel, right there.

395 Posted by: BB Wolf at June 12, 2015 03:52 PM (qh617)

-----

*taps on the shoulder*

Folow me.

396 Previous treaty has already caused a law change. It is no longer a requirement to label where the meat comes from.



Watched a show last night where they made fish sticks in norway from frozen blocks of chopped up fish from China.





Posted by: just saying at June 12, 2015 03:50 PM (wkuqO)


Oh come on, why should you round-eyes be concerned about the country of origin!

397 Oh shit...

398 "My wife and I start keeping a list of reduction in volume compared to price. It's all through the grocery store."

Other stores as well.

Quad crate of gallon jugs of motor oil suddenly becomes a triple crate for the same price.

399 All sleight of hand, and kabuki. Every one of these lying bastards needs to be arrested, charged, tried, sentenced, and punished. They are not even waiting to leave office before becoming lobbyists for foreign powers. Mark Levin called this one yesterday.

400 > "Why Certain Trade Agreements Are Approved as
Congressional-Executive Agreements Rather Than Treaties":
http://bit.ly/1Mwxr3


Posted by: Miss80sBaby at June 12, 2015 03:48 PM (YjDyJ)

That's the same CRS study you posted yesterday, which was informative but noresponsive to my question yesterday about the 2/3 requirement for treaties, as it is today, unless the Congressional Research Service is now the Supreme Court.

401 I live in the People's Republic of Hawaii, so my Congress(wo)man is a Democrat and my Senators are Democrats. I wish I had Republican Congressman or Senator to whom to send Ace's rant. I only get to say FU to RNC telephone solicitors.

402 I love what Fiorina is doing, I don't love her as a
potential president. Kinda like rooting for a team that will take out
your own team's biggest threat during playoffs.


Posted by: Lizzy at June 12, 2015 03:46 PM (k2QA3)


So... kinda like what Bachmann did for me in '12?

403 Whoa Nelly!

404 Jesus what was that?

405 My wife and I start keeping a list of reduction in volume compared to price. It's all through the grocery store.



Yeah. I'm hawk eyed when it comes to those games.

406 Geez. I leave for fifteen minutes and the whole place falls a part.

407 Thanks for writing this post, Ace. It sums up my feelings perfectly.

408 and they call ME 85!

409 Aye, I rememember the great reposting of '15. It was a horrorshow, I tells ya.

410 Keep an eye open; you'll probably be surprised how prevalent this is.
Posted by: Sort-of-Mad Max
.............
Everything is like this nowadays..

Half gallons of orange juice? Now they only give you 59 ounces instead of 64.

Last package of toilet paper I bought, the rolls had holes big enough to drive a mack truck through! And they're fluffed up with air!

Fuckers.. I'm mad too. No inflation? Getting less for the same amount IS inflation!

411 If Republicans had any spine or showed any tendency to adhere to principles, they'd treat ol' Carly with all the seriousness with which they regarded Marvin Kitman's candidacy.
Posted by: MrScribbler at June 12, 2015 03:48 PM (P8YHq)

I like Fiorina myself, but confess to having the same thoughts you have regarding Rand 'can't hide the crazy' Paul and his equally insane, paranoid, piece of shitfather. The thought of Rand Paul actually having a shot at the GOP nomination gives me chills.

412 A novelty shield candidate like Cain or Carson.



Posted by: Bertram Cabot Jr. at June 12, 2015 03:42 PM (W5DcG)

Don't underestimate her. She is the best on any interview I have ever seen. She doesn't take shit and will "cut you"

413 The Blue Pill is wearing off and we are starting to understand that we are all nothing more than batteries.

414 But if you vote for the Party of Sharpton and Obama and expect better results than the Party of Cruz and Perry, well then, you're not doing yourself or your country any good.

I don't hold with the tactic, but it doesn't seem to me anyone actually expects better results. It looks like an attempted electoral Alinsky inversion--make it go so bad so fast it collapses under its own weight. It's arguable how well that would work (I don't think it will).

415 Well hell.... if yer gonna go to the barrel anyway...

Go Hard or go Home.... /facepalm...

ace: This was an EPIC BARREL. I award you ten marks out of ten.

416 Thanks for writing this post, Ace. It sums up my feelings perfectly.
Posted by: Evil is a Foot at June 12, 2015 03:55 PM (0IhFx)

----

Well.... to be fair.... BB Re-wrote alot of it too.

417 I understand the theory and reason for TPA- Fast Track authority- BUT NOT WITH THIS PRESIDENT!
Posted by: Nevergiveup at June 12, 2015 02:56 PM

Nine years ago, I might have agreed with your sub-premise, NGU. Now, not so much.

If "Fast Track" is defeated, I don't worry if some future decent, patriotic president is slowed down a bit by having to have his "deals" vetted. Some people think that was Croooz and Walker's reason for talking nice about Choom Trade.

But as of now, I am solidly in favor of making every president from here on out crawl across a bed of red-hot razor blades to get approval of anything beyond a proclamation of National Pet Your Dog Day.

418 Posted by: BB Wolf at June 12, 2015 03:52 PM (qh617)

Dear Lord...

Might our friend find salvation while in "The Barrel". Might he keep his head low and be expelled without injury.

419 I can't work up much enthusiasm over this. I remember last November and how Reps rewarded us for our votes by stiffing us right out of the gate. Still choking on that.

420 As if on cue, software engineers thereafter began to be replaced by imported immigrant workers.
Posted by: torquewrench at June 12, 2015 03:52 PM (noWW6)

___________

Not really. Shortley after NAFTA went into effect, the tech boom began. And during that boom if you knew what HTML stood for, you could get a job.

And that's still more or less true today. Good programmers are in high demand and very well compensated.

421 I thought TPP meant Tonight is Pool Party!!!

422 Nood podcast

423 336 You still don't get it. NO Fast Tracked Bill has ever been defeated once it was Fast Tracked. We are not talking about a bill that was refused Fast Track Status

> According to the article I linked, Pelosi refused to bring the actual trade deal to a vote. Furthermore, as previously mentioned, Congress has other methods by which to kill fast-track/TPA. The reason it has not been done more often is because Congress did not have cause.

424 That's right. Let. it. burn. Let. them. all. burn. #GOP #Cruz #Ryan #Pelosi

425 But as of now, I am solidly in favor of making every president from here on out crawl across a bed of red-hot razor blades to get approval of anything beyond a proclamation of National Pet Your Dog Day.

And for National Pet Your Dog Day, we just won't heat up the razor blades.

426 That's the same CRS study you posted yesterday, which was informative but noresponsive to my question yesterday about the 2/3 requirement for treaties, as it is today, unless the Congressional Research Service is now the Supreme Court.
Posted by: Caesar North of the Rubicon at June 12, 2015 03:54 PM (t2m1Y)

For what ever reason and I do not know the Constitutional Law behind it, the Trade "Treaty" being negotiated by Fredo and President Bush before him is not classified as a Treaty for the purposes of the 2/3 vote thing. And with passage of Fast Track Authority the ability to pass it would drop from 60 votes to 51. Don't as me why, but that is what I read.

427 >>So... kinda like what Bachmann did for me in '12?

I like how Fiorina hits Hillary non-stop. That's where I see her value: destroying Hillary's non-accomplishment-but-has-vagina campaign.

Does Fiorina have the potential spoil a fellow GOP candidate? Not seeing it, but I could have missed something.

428 While I wholeheartedly support the "let it burn" plan, voting democrat isn't going to help. The GOP will just see fewer Republican votes, and more Democrats, and assume they need to move more to the center. Of course, if there are more Republican votes, they feel safe to move to the center...

The solution to every problem a liberal faces is spending more and raising taxes, and for the GOP it seems to be moving to the center/left.

429
The Blue Pill is wearing off and we are starting to understand that we are all nothing more than batteries.

There is a certain ginger midget who will have use for you.

430 Go Hard or go Home.... /facepalm...

Posted by: BB Wolf at June 12, 2015 03:56 PM (qh617)
Don't forget to write

431 Dammit, I was counting on the lower tariffs to help me buy back my information from the Chinese. Now what?

432 Posted by: Miss80sBaby at June 12, 2015 03:57 PM (YjDyJ)

Uh.... Fast tracked treaties do not GO to the House.... only the Senate for an up or down vote...

So not sure what that article is talking about...

433 Many of the consumer goods you buy have less stuff in the same size containers.

The $%^&*( White Cheddar Cheezits have are less cheesy. The one thing you'd actually want cheesier.

434 Isn't John Titor supposed to come back this year some time? Maybe he can go back in time and help us fix this crap up by slipping a Young Obama some bad weed or something...

435 And with passage of Fast Track Authority the ability
to pass it would drop from 60 votes to 51. Don't as me why, but that is
what I read.

Posted by: Nevergiveup at June 12, 2015 03:57 PM (/tNwW)

Why it's almost like the fix is in!
This is a part we know something about, can you imagine what wonders are hidden in the backroom secret part?
If it was so fricking good for us all, let us see it in all its majesty and dance in the streets singing praises to Obama and the GOP!

436 Does Fiorina have the potential spoil a fellow GOP candidate? Not seeing it, but I could have missed something.
Posted by: Lizzy at June 12, 2015 03:57 PM (k2QA3)

If by 'spoil' you mean beat in a fair fight for the GOP nomination, I see nothing wrong with making it a rough and tumble affair. Politics ain't beanbag. As for me, I love how Fiorina takes it to Hillary. Love it.

437 142 92 Honestly, high establishment hack in congress are you employed by?

> Sorry to disappoint you but I do not work on the Hill and was actually on the fence about fast-track/TPA until I read the bill and studied the process. The only reason I am commenting about the issue now is because I have issues with members of Congress lying in order to scare people. If TPP is such a bad deal then let us see it. That will only happen if the House passes TPA.

438 The holy fucking fuck?

That deserves life in the Barrel. Without parole.

439 Don't as me why, but that is what I read.

Posted by: Nevergiveup at June 12, 2015 03:57 PM (/tNwW)


Because .... Sophistry!

Its like a guy growing grain, to feed his OWN chickens, is somehow engaged in INTER- State commerce....

440 Average price of a gallon of gas today is what it was exactly 10 years ago. You can buy a laptop for $400 today with the power of a laptop that cost $5,000 in 2005.

Inflation giveth and it taketh away.

Oh oh oh but you can't eat a laptop so it doesn't matter. Never mind.

441 432 Uh.... Fast tracked treaties do not GO to the House.... only the Senate for an up or down vote...

< Free trade agreements (or FTAs) are not treaties and both chambers vote on any potential agreement.

442 Its like a guy growing grain, to feed his OWN chickens, is somehow engaged in INTER- State commerce....

Posted by: BB Wolf at June 12, 2015 04:02 PM (qh617)

Back in the Barrel! STAT! And no hand sanitizer for you.

443 > Sorry to disappoint you but I do not work on
the Hill and was actually on the fence about fast-track/TPA until I read
the bill and studied the process. The only reason I am commenting about
the issue now is because I have issues with members of Congress lying
in order to scare people. If TPP is such a bad deal then let us see it.
That will only happen if the House passes TPA.


Posted by: Miss80sBaby at June 12, 2015 04:02 PM (YjDyJ)

Pray tell, how did you "read the bill". No one but members have access to the bill and they have to go to a secure room to read it.

444 For what ever reason and I do not know the
Constitutional Law behind it, the Trade "Treaty" being negotiated by
Fredo and President Bush before him is not classified as a Treaty for
the purposes of the 2/3 vote thing. And with passage of Fast Track
Authority the ability to pass it would drop from 60 votes to 51. Don't
as me why, but that is what I read.

Posted by: Nevergiveup at June 12, 2015 03:57 PM (/tNwW)

I sort of figured that out from what M80B posted yesterday. Basically, as I understand it, the two heads of state aren't agreeing to a treaty, they're agreeing to take a proposal back to their legislatures that their countries should both pass a domestic law reducing trade barriers with that other country. I'm not sure I buy it when there are multiple countries and a permanent infrastructure like GATT or NAFTA. That's why I asked for a Supreme Court opinion saying this was Constitutional. Referred back to the same CRS study and then crickets.

445 I didn't say you worked on the hill. I said you worked for a congressman. They have local staff as well.

446 [There is a certain ginger midget who will have use for you.]


Might be good work if you can get it.

447 yep, that sums up my feelings about the GOP - I don't trust any of you lying bastards.

448 Personally I prefer the Kelly Brook T&A Bill. This one is available online and is very interesting to peruse (click link).

But serious you guys, Free trade works best when nations have comparable environmental regulations and labor standards.

As productive as they are, American workers can't compete Asia slave labor and they would never tolerate the environmental conditions found in so many Asian countries.

449 287 why are the Unions fighting it? Work and Labor?
--
To me it doesn't matter. Obama and his high priced team of commies do all the thinking for me, then I pick the opposite. If he wants it. I don't and vice versa.

450 400 That's the same CRS study you posted yesterday, which was informative but noresponsive to my question yesterday about the 2/3 requirement for treaties, as it is today, unless the Congressional Research Service is now the Supreme Court.

> The other article was about the role of Congress; this article specifically deals with historical precedent- including court cases- when it comes to congressional-executive agreements.

451 Unions fighting it are simple. They can't get dues from workers based in Malaysia.

452 >>Oh oh oh but you can't eat a laptop so it doesn't matter. Never mind.


Sort of an apples to oranges comparison of something that has been widely available for decades vs. new technology, which is always super expensive at first and then drop significantly as it becomes more widespread.
You could say this about HD tvs, cell phones, etc., too - that wouldn't be a particularly good measure against, say, the price fluctuations of coffee and peanutbutter.

453


Posted by: Miss80sBaby at June 12, 2015 04:04 PM (YjDyJ)


So its not a 'treaty treaty'?

(sent via blinking light, in code, from the barrel)

454 Jesus take the wheel. I agree with Pelosi and the AFLCIO (lmnop)

455 Best post ever.

Best indictment of the lies of the GOP THIS YEAR ALONE!

Best FUCKING POST EVER!

456 You commies wanted war in the raw, you're gonna get it. And you are NOT gonna like it.


Posted by: Sort-of-Mad Max at June 12, 2015 03:40 PM (DLu2s)

You must be new here.

457 445 I didn't say you worked on the hill. I said you worked for a congressman. They have local staff as well.

< I am not a local staffer, either. It also may interest you that one of the lawmakers who I think has been smeared by certain conservative outlets is Sen. Cruz. Now, I have had my disagreements with Sen. Cruz, but alleging that he is involved in some bizarre conspiracy is not only unfair but ridiculous.

458 Miss80s Baby, if I confused the CRS study you posted yesterday with today's I apologize. But the link above is broken.

459 Well, I agree. My republican representative has
inspired me to not just stay home but to vote in the general against
him. I guess that means voting for their friends on the other side of
the isle.

Posted by: just saying at June 12, 2015 03:15 PM (wkuqO)

Find someone to primary your congress critter. Dave Brat is doing a marvelous job after winning that way:-)

460 443 Pray tell, how did you "read the bill". No one but members have access to the bill and they have to go to a secure room to read it.

< I read TPA (http://1.usa.gov/1Hva6zK), not TPP. The current drafts of TPP that Congress is reviewing is not final.

461 The alliances for and against TPA/TPP/etc are so muddled as to be unhelpful in assessing the measures. You have Obama/McConnell/Boehner on one side and Reid/Pelosi/Rand Paul/Susan Collins/Amash (iirc) on the other.

What matters to me is that, for whatever reason, these measures are unpopular with a significant chunk of loyal GOP voters. I care more about them than the fanciful FUTURE voters that the GOPe seems to think they're going to grab. Call me a nut.

I would like to win the WH back.

The GOPe is, for some reason, pushing through a measure that is bound to lose votes that we need to win in 2016.

This is insane.

The GOP should withdraw, regroup, inform voters and LISTEN TO THEM.

If they don't I can only conclude that they don't give a shit about winning the White House. IOW, they're the Let It Burn group, not me.

462 Fuck those guys.
Why the hell does it have to a goddam secret?
Do not trust that shit.
It's no way to run the damn government.

463 Now, I have had my disagreements with Sen. Cruz, but
alleging that he is involved in some bizarre conspiracy is not only
unfair but ridiculous.


Posted by: Miss80sBaby at June 12, 2015 04:11 PM (YjDyJ)

Ted Cruz screwed the pooch on this one. Neither this President nor this Congress can be trusted with the legislative procedure that fast track authority would set up. And I say that as someone who, up until now, has been an ardent supporter of Cruz (back to his primary which I sent money to support even though I live nowhere near Texas).

464 Art bell, Alex jones, and hussein ubama. Heh.

465 458 Miss80s Baby, if I confused the CRS study you posted yesterday with today's I apologize. But the link above is broken.

> My fault. Here it is: http://bit.ly/1Mwxr3z.

466 Posted by: Y-not at June 12, 2015 04:13 PM (RWGcK)

Its like who do you back in the current Middle East mess...

Sunni? Shia? Turkey? Saud? Iran? Iraq, who is in bed with Iran, but we backed? Anti Assad forces who give guns to ISIS?

I feel the same way about Washington.... they are all a bunch of bitchy Millionaires arguing over how to give away OUR Money....

(heard via morse code tapping from the barrel).

467 Try us, motherfuckers. We are ready to form another party and consign
you corrupt, racist, backwards, uneducated money-grubbing dolts to the
fate of the Whigs.

I am ready to vote Democrat, just to spite you.

I am ready to burn it all down.

Try me. Try all of us.

History repeats.

It only repeats the bad parts, but it repeats.
Speaking of... https://youtu.be/yzLT6_TQmq8?t=56

468 < I read TPA (http://1.usa.gov/1Hva6zK), not TPP. The current drafts of TPP that Congress is reviewing is not final.


Posted by: Miss80sBaby at June 12, 2015 04:13 PM (YjDyJ)

Not final, but still available in a room secured by armed guards for those with "appropriate security clearance"... cause us peons are just citizens and have no right to know in what ways our government plans to f#$@ us over.

469 < I read TPA (http://1.usa.gov/1Hva6zK), not TPP. The current drafts of TPP that Congress is reviewing is not final.


Posted by: Miss80sBaby at June 12, 2015 04:13 PM (YjDyJ)

So what you are saying is that you read the Senate TPA bill, but have no idea what is in the House bill?
Got it. With all due respect, your stories are not making much sense. Either that or the entire MSM is lying about getting access to the bill.

470 458
Miss80s Baby, if I confused the CRS study you posted yesterday with today's I apologize. But the link above is broken.


Posted by: Caesar North of the Rubicon at June 12, 2015 04:11 PM (t2m1Y)

OK, I googled it and read it. Bottom line is that the Supreme Court has never ruled on whether this practice constitutes a treaty or not, at least in the cases reported in that study. NAFTA was challenged, and an Eleventh Circuit panel ruled that it was a nonjusticiable political question, and the Supreme Court denied certiorari. Denial of cert is not a judgment on the merits, just an acknowledgment that there aren't four justices who want to review the case in that Term. So we don't really know. Sounds like someone competent with standing should mount a judicial challenge.

471 461 The GOP should withdraw, regroup, inform voters and LISTEN TO THEM.

> How can they properly inform people when so many lies and half-truths are being promoted on this subject? I think the debate over free trade is valid but we cannot properly debate TPP until we have seen the text, which will not happen without TPA.

472 If you entrust people like Scott Lincicome with your borders and sovereignty, you wont have a country left.

473 So many threats of creating a third party, but conservatives never do anything about it. Lots of bluster and no action. I expect more of the same going forward.

474 Oh, and Nancy Pelosi is a back stabbing slut.



I love it when dem fight each other.



More popcorn please!

475 12 Can't show the bill to the peasants. That is reason enough to vote it down
~~~~~~~~~~~~~

This. So much this.

476 469
< I read TPA (http://1.usa.gov/1Hva6zK), not TPP. The current drafts of TPP that Congress is reviewing is not final.




Posted by: Miss80sBaby at June 12, 2015 04:13 PM (YjDyJ)

So what you are saying is that you read the Senate TPA bill, but have no idea what is in the House bill?
Got
it. With all due respect, your stories are not making much sense.
Either that or the entire MSM is lying about getting access to the bill.


Posted by: Nip Sip at June 12, 2015 04:20 PM (0FSuD)

I think she's right about that part. The President was asking for authority to go negotiate the final TPP agreement, and what they're keeping secret is a working draft. Now, we don't know how close it is to a final agreement - maybe it's really finished but they just want the expedited rules, no filibuster, no amendments. Or maybe there is more negotiatin' to do. Who knows? They've only been working on it for a decade.

477 Adjoran HAS to work for the GOP. Explains his condescension.

478 @475

Totally agree. What happen to that Obama promise that all is legislation was going to be posted on the internet?

479 469 So what you are saying is that you read the Senate TPA bill, but have no idea what is in the House bill?

Got it. With all due respect, your stories are not making much sense. Either that or the entire MSM is lying about getting access to the bill.


> The document they have not yet released is the current text of
TPP, or the Trans-Pacific Partnership. TPA (Trade Promotion Authority),
which is a process bill, has been online for quite some time.

480 How can they properly inform people when so many lies and half-truths are being promoted on this subject?
---

They need to go back to their districts/states and hold town halls.

They did a crappy job up front. I watched the thing unfold. I read what I could read. I was on the fence and they lost me.

The American people, and more importantly GOP voters, do not trust people in DC. That's on the elected officials, not some bloggers or writers or voters.

If the people on this blog who invest a great deal of time trying to follow politics are skeptical of the need to rush this through against the voters' wishes, then it doesn't matter if it's "fair" the GOP needs to remedy that.

481 476 469 I think she's right about that part. The President was asking for authority to go negotiate the final TPP agreement, and what they're keeping secret is a working draft. Now, we don't know how close it is to a final agreement...

< The other countries in the pact are currently refusing to continue negotiations with us unless we pass TPA.

482 "We are ready to form another party and consign you corrupt, racist,
backwards, uneducated money-grubbing dolts to the fate of the Whigs."

You're ready to form another party, huh? So you've recruited people to run for Congress, gotten hundreds of thousands of petition signatures for ballot access, and raised lots of money? Or not?














































































































































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483 I think the debate over free trade is valid but we cannot properly
debate TPP until we have seen the text, which will not happen without
TPA.


I think, respectfully, that is an invalid assumption, Miss80sBaby. I understand why the negotiating partners want the President to have TPA, so they won't get to a final negotiation and then have to start another negotiating round in Congress to get to a final-final. But how do we know without TPA they won't go ahead and conclude it, then submit TPP as a treaty to the Senate? That's an option. If it's such a wonderful deal, what are they afraid of?

484 17 Pelosi is right. Ryan is wrong. Up is down. Down is up.

Posted by: John Doe@AnotherQuidam at June 12, 2015 02:56 PM (g1MTt)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
RE: Paul Ryan. I was wondering what happened to him. Now I see that he was always "capital r" Republican before he was "small c" conservative. That's why Romney chose him.

Probably could have gotten a lot more votes with a female VP candidate. Like, one that didn't bring the "Ryan budget kills people and starves animals" hysteria along with her.

485 I apologize for the "Style Definitions" at the bottom of the previous post. I don't know where that came from.

486 If they don't I can only conclude that they don't give a shit about winning the White House. IOW, they're the Let It Burn group, not me.

Oh, no, they're the "Burn, Pillage and Plunder" group. They're much worse.

487 Barrel's gonna get crowded.

488 I apologize for the "Style Definitions" at the bottom of the previous post. I don't know where that came from.

It came from copypasta without Notepad as an intermediary.

Same as your ticket to the Barrel.

489 So a country with a record of human-trafficking violations is dictating to American politicians how they perform their Constitutional obligations on behalf of American voters?

Awesome.

490 478 @475 Totally agree. What happen to that Obama promise that all is legislation was going to be posted on the internet?

> The Administration is required to make the text publicly available for 60 days before the president can sign it. Congress then reviews the document for months prior to a vote.

491 That will only happen if the House passes TPA.

Because its supporters say so.

There is of course no actual reason that the bill couldn't be made public in it's entirety and given, say three months of discussion.

492 Oh, no, they're the "Burn, Pillage and Plunder" group. They're much worse.
---

I stand corrected.

493 < The other countries in the pact are currently refusing to continue negotiations with us unless we pass TPA.


Posted by: Miss80sBaby at June 12, 2015 04:28 PM (YjDyJ)

Oh, but wheels within wheels. How do we know that's true? And if they're actually saying that, how do we know that our negotiators in the USTR's office haven't asked them to say it? I DO NOT TRUST THESE PEOPLE.

494 Ted Cruz is for ObamaTrade? After his, "I want 500,000 more legal immigrants annually" stance, who am I left with?

495 Posted by: Joshua at June 12, 2015 04:28 PM (oCZ4e)

Come down we have "nice" spot for you

496 FUCK the GOPe... DIABLOS, one and all.

497 My concern about TPA/TPP is this:

Let's say the president is given trade promotion authority to negotiate a trade deal with the Asian countries.

He comes back with the deal and says, Okay, Senate, please pass this deal.

The Senate votes the deal down.

What do you think happens next?

a. The president abandons the trade deal?
b. The president tries to implement as much of the trade deal as he can through executive orders?

Hint: the answer sounds like it buzzes and makes honey.

498 My only concern at this point is practical and political.

If the GOP rams through "Obama's" trade measures, they lose votes that they cannot afford to lose.

They need to sack up, go home, and persuade the voters of the need for these trade measures.

499 Preach it, Ace!

500 The subtleties of politics escapes you, Ace

501 Posted by: Joshua at June 12, 2015 04:33 PM (oCZ4e)

to me the real problem is we would have a de facto treaty, with multiple countries, with only a MAJORITY vote in the Senate... vice the 2/3rds the Constitution calls for.

The Founders WANTED it to be hard to get entangled in foreign treaties....

502 The current drafts of TPP that Congress is reviewing is not final.

O.o

Wasn't that the third thing that was getting voted today?

503 Damn Ace....it's about time. How many times do they get to screw you before you realize they are a bunch of lying lil shites. Remember what Reagan said,"Trust but verify"......they have broken that trust for the past 20 years...and you expected the rat bastards to change.....

504 The other countries in the pact are currently refusing to continue negotiations with us unless we pass TPA.


Posted by: Miss80sBaby at June 12, 2015 04:28 PM (YjDyJ)

Apologies to Ace for some very unladylike cursing but...

Fuck those fucking guys. We don't get to vote for them and they do not represent our interests. Conversely, we did not put the GOP in power for them to vote as foreign powers want them to instead of in the interests of their constituents.

505 If I were Mitch McConnell I would beg Ted Cruz to get on TV and explain the value of TPA, its relationship to TPP, and his position (for or against, he's hedging) on TPP.

Cruz really mishandled this, which I assume is because Amanda Carpenter wasn't on the job. But he's about the only one the base will listen to.

Sadly, McConnell has invested so much time and energy into knee-capping Cruz that there's little chance this will happen.

506 483 I think, respectfully, that is an invalid assumption, Miss80sBaby. I understand why the negotiating partners want the President to have TPA, so they won't get to a final negotiation and then have to start another negotiating round in Congress to get to a final-final. But how do we know without TPA they won't go ahead and conclude it, then submit TPP as a treaty to the Senate? That's an option. If it's such a wonderful deal, what are they afraid of?

> The reason why these countries want TPA is because they want to know that we are negotiating in good faith. Allowing every member of Congress to amend the trade deal is akin to letting them negotiate, which that power is constitutionally granted to the president. Members would also be tempted to fill the deal with special protections and favors for their districts. That is why we have TPA, which is used to provide guidelines and requirements for the president. If the president violates the aforementioned, they not only have the right but the obligation to stop fast-track/TPA. They can also vote-down the deal or simply refuse to vote on it.

507 The other countries in the pact are currently refusing to continue negotiations with us unless we pass TPA.

So? Fuck 'em.

508 Ted Cruz just tweeted an info graphic.

*bashes head against wall*

We are WAY beyond tweeted info graphics made by some sleezeball staffer.

509 Posted by: Miss80sBaby at June 12, 2015 04:40 PM (YjDyJ)

Any amendment would have to pass with the majority of the Senate.... a single Senator can't amend it.

And it is the process enshrined in the Constitution, that the Senate Advises and consents on Treaties...

so now, we will change what our CONSTITUTION calls for, because some FOREIGNERS want it?

510 The reason why these countries want TPA is because
they want to know that we are negotiating in good faith. Allowing every
member of Congress to amend the trade deal is akin to letting them
negotiate, which that power is constitutionally granted to the
president. Members would also be tempted to fill the deal with special
protections and favors for their districts. That is why we have TPA,
which is used to provide guidelines and requirements for the president.
If the president violates the aforementioned, they not only have the
right but the obligation to stop fast-track/TPA. They can also vote-down
the deal or simply refuse to vote on it.


Posted by: Miss80sBaby at June 12, 2015 04:40 PM (YjDyJ)

I am sure zombie Woodrow Wilson would agree with that reasoning but it is still a good thing that he did not have fast track authority and that the Senate killed the treaty that would have set up the League of Nations and kneecapped US sovereignty.

511 I think the debate over free trade is valid but we
cannot properly debate TPP until we have seen the text, which will not
happen without TPA.


Posted by: Miss80sBaby at June 12, 2015 04:21 PM (YjDyJ)
I have not seen it demonstrated anywhere that we need TPA in order that details of TPP be revealed. It would seem an arbitrary arrangement. Without TPA, would not TPP then be subject to negotiation and amendment, which also allows that details of TPP could be revealed.

Why the secrecy?

512 I may have missed why town halls aren't an option and why these things need to be passed now, over voters' objections.

513 The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.
- G. K. Chesterton

Kind of like special interests working out who gets he contract to supply the rapist with ski masks, weapons, access, and condoms. Politics, and such.

514 It's not that we don't simply trust the GOP, we don't trust the government, period.

Congress simply gives us excuses as to why they can't protect or help us. That is, until they want to pass something like TPA. The when it goes south later on, they point at the White House and say "it's that guy".

The president simply runs every one over, uses subterfuge in place of Constitutional process and then tells us anyone who opposes him is irrational or a demagogue- really?

People have gotten to the point they don't care how rational the argument is. If it even appears to give the president a means of overreach while giving the GOP a strawman excuse, they will oppose it.

We've seen this movie before, and it always ends badly for us.

Tell ya what. When the GOP stands up and simply explains the factual benefits of passing TPA, then promises to resign if they don't materialize or if the President abuses his power and obfuscates TPA in some way, then I'll support it.

Deal? Then you'll have my support.

Otherwise, you can blow my irrational member

515 Amen, Marcus T

516 491 Because its supporters say so.

There is of course no actual reason that the bill couldn't be made public in it's entirety and given, say three months of discussion.

< Making it public before it is finalized only serves to undermine the negotiating process. Again, the president is required to make the text public for 60 days before he can even sign-off on the deal. Then a number of items have to be completed before Congress may even schedule a vote. Considering how slowly this deal has moved, the SCOAMF may not even be in office by the time it is completed- assuming they even come to a deal, that is.

90-day notification of intent to sign-> 60-day public release of text-> 30-day report submission by the Advisory committees-> president signs-> Congress begins to review bill

517 I may have missed why town halls aren't an option and why these things need to be passed now, over voters' objections.

Congressmen don't like to be reminded that their duty is to take marching orders from us, as occurred in the attempt to sell obamacare.

518 I may have missed why town halls aren't an option and why these things need to be passed now, over voters' objections.

Posted by: Y-not at June 12, 2015 04:45 PM (RWGcK)

Because voters are smelly and too stupid to understand the nuances of why it is in their best interests to allow the politicians to do what enriches politicians.

519 "The roof, The roof

The roof is on fire!

The roof, The roof

The roof is on fire...."

520 < The other countries in the pact are currently refusing to continue negotiations with us unless we pass TPA.


Posted by: Miss80sBaby at June 12, 2015 04:28 PM (YjDyJ)

So they are ready for Obama to give away the farm and realize that having the details exposed would be detrimental to achieving their desired benefits.

Why by all means, let's fast track that shit!
Fuck them (the other pact countries). We don't need TPP. I know this because, if it was so beneficial, it would sell its-fucking-self.

521 Congressmen don't like to be reminded that their duty is to take marching orders from us
---

Yeah, better for them to take them from human rights violators.

The gap between the ruling classes (and their hangers on and enablers) and the rest of us is widening daily.

522 Many people like to make fun of NY and the gun laws.

You know how the (un)SAFE Act was passed here? They used an emergency procedure to pass it before anyone in the public had a chance to read it.

That way, people could not understand the text and oppose it.

Which many here do.

But now we're stuck with it because once an bill is placed into law, it's almost impossible to repeal.

That's despotism and anarchy. Now its come to U.S. Congress.

523 Oh, Man, I fucking LOVE it when you go ape shit.

524 I try to assume that the people on the other side of this widening divide are well-intentioned. I hope they are. But there is little doubt that they have no understanding of what life is like for us mere mortals who vote for them or pay their bosses' salaries.

This is why the Democrats' class warfare stuff worked so well and will continue to work.

Doom.

525

#378 Posted by: BB Wolf at June 12, 2015 03:52 PM (qh617)

11,699 words 61,520 characters

*golf clap*

526 90-day notification of intent to sign-> 60-day
public release of text-> 30-day report submission by the Advisory
committees-> president signs-> Congress begins to review bill


Posted by: Miss80sBaby at June 12, 2015 04:50 PM (YjDyJ)

Because
Congress has never ever lied and broken disclosure promises so that
they could pass unpopular bills in the dead of night...

no sirree, that's just crazy talk to think they have done that before.

527 The gap between the ruling classes (and their hangers on and enablers) and the rest of us is widening daily.

I hope I live to see the day a critical mass of Americans recognize that DC and its supporters are not our government but a foreign power occupying our country.

528 525

#378 Posted by: BB Wolf at June 12, 2015 03:52 PM (qh617)

11,699 words 61,520 characters

*golf clap*


Posted by: Laurie David's Cervix at June 12, 2015 04:54 PM (kdS6q)


one mouse slip on a fast computer..... priceless....

529 As Elsa once sang "let it burn, let it burrrn! the dems will be the first to go anyway"

530 493 Oh, but wheels within wheels. How do we know that's true? And if they're actually saying that, how do we know that our negotiators in the USTR's office haven't asked them to say it? I DO NOT TRUST THESE PEOPLE.

> Why negotiate a deal if it is going to be completely changed by individuals who have their own vested interests? Besides, as aforementioned, Congress can halt this process whenever they want. One way of doing that would be to start a vote in the Ways and Means Committee, where it then moves to the floor. The Senate is no longer required to concur (they can also hold their own vote) and, unlike some of these attempts at defunding, the president's signature is not required.

531 Those voters and their vested interests. How troublesome.

532 Those voters and their vested interests. How troublesome.

Posted by: Y-not on the phone at June 12, 2015 05:02 PM (ZxV1A)

I know, right? It is almost like we think this is our country or something.

533 Miss80sBaby, your response at 506 does not address my post at 483. I already grant that the other countries want us to have TPA because they don't want to negotiate again with Congress instead of the USTR. That's understood -- why they want it. (Although, one might ask why WE want such a procedure).

My post at 483 addressed your leap to the conclusion that the President having TPA is the only way forward for the negotiations. I understand that claim is being made by someone with a vested interest in giving the President fast track authority. (He may yet get it in the Senate, if they can get enough D's to pass the House bill without TAA.) But just because someone is saying that doesn't mean it's so.

There are procedural alternatives.

534 Why negotiate a deal if it is going to be completely changed by individuals who have their own vested interests?

Because if they have a majority in both houses that agrees with them, that is the way democracy works.

535 Besides, as aforementioned, Congress can halt this process whenever they
want. One way of doing that would be to start a vote in the Ways and
Means Committee, where it then moves to the floor. The Senate is no
longer required to concur (they can also hold their own vote) and,
unlike some of these attempts at defunding, the president's signature is
not required.

It seems like the Congress chose to halt the process today. That should be good enough for everyone.

536 Actual Headline on Drudge Report:
.
PELOSI SAYS NO TO OBAMATRADE; TAKES BRAVE STAND FOR AMERICA
.

537 531 Those voters and their vested interests. How troublesome.

> I am referring to members of Congress. How often have we previously seen them attempt to insert deals that specifically benefit their districts? Or what about inserting policies intended to help them at the polls? Besides, if Congress was meant to negotiate trade deals then why did the Founders state that this power was given to the executive?

538 Dammit. Missed this ranty thread.

CURSE YOU, GAINFUL EMPLOYMENT!!

539 PELOSI SAYS NO TO OBAMATRADE; TAKES BRAVE STAND FOR AMERICA

Congratulations, Boehner, McConnell, Cruz, Ryan. You made Nancy Pelosi look patriotic.

540 533 My post at 483 addressed your leap to the conclusion that the President having TPA is the only way forward for the negotiations. I understand that claim is being made by someone with a vested interest in giving the President fast track authority. (He may yet get it in the Senate, if they can get enough D's to pass the House bill without TAA.) But just because someone is saying that doesn't mean it's so.

"Japan says hard to hold TPP ministerial talks without U.S. fast-track bill": http://reut.rs/1e9yPys

541 Once again I must note that the Red Rat Commie Bastards of the Democratic Party are our opponents, the Republican Leadership is our enemy.

542 Not really. Shortley after NAFTA went into effect, the tech boom began. And during that boom if you knew what HTML stood for, you could get a job.

And that's still more or less true today. Good programmers are in high demand and very well compensated.

Posted by: HUCK / AKIN 2016 at June 12, 2015 03:57 PM (0LHZx)

Yeah, nice dream world. I ran into a guy in the late 90's who was bragging about how he was bringing in cheap Indian programmers.

My place of employment in the mid-90's started bringing in H1-B's and driving out the older programmers.

543 why did the Founders state that this power was given to the executive?



Where did the Founders ever say that?

544 "Japan says hard to hold TPP ministerial talks without U.S. fast-track bill"

There was a time when other nations would jump through flaming hoops to trade with us. Of course, that was before we became a beggar nation.

545 535 It seems like the Congress chose to halt the process today. That should be good enough for everyone.

> So we should just give the Chinese further economic control of the region? Withdrawing from the world stage with regards to trade deals only emboldens our enemies.

546 537 531 Those voters and their vested interests. How troublesome.

> I am referring to members of Congress.

---

Who answer to voters.

Obama is a lame duck and totally unaccountable.

I'm just a regular person. I wield no special power, either through money or personal connections, that gives me the "ear" of anyone. All I have is my vote.

I will withhold my vote from the GOP if they keep this up.

Now I have no illusions that anyone who works in DC or any of the myriad of *lobbyists or donors or aides or talking heads whose livelihoods depend on those politicians will personally suffer. But at least I can have the satisfaction of throwing a monkey wrench into their plans.

Because it is apparent that their* goals, don't align with mine.

547 Thank you, Ace, for stating what so many of us think so eloquently. :airkiss:

548 Besides, if Congress was meant to negotiate trade deals then why did the
Founders state that this power was given to the executive?

Miss80sBaby whose name link is pissing the comment box off



If the Senate were not meant to be involved per the Constitution, Obama would not need TPA at all... nor would Congress be trying with all their might to cede their their power to amend Treaties.

549 So we should just give the Chinese further economic control of the region? Withdrawing from the world stage with regards to trade deals only emboldens our enemies.
---

What's the rush?

Why not next month after some town halls and listening sessions with those pesky voters?

Why risk losing in 2016 to rush this deal?

550 543 Where did the Founders ever say that?

< Article II. The role of Congress is described in Article I, Section 8.

551 "Japan says hard to hold TPP ministerial talks without U.S. fast-track bill": http://reut.rs/1e9yPys




Again, do they say impossible? No. Why, of course, it is in their interest and THEY want it. And did they come up with that little policy position unprompted, or did someone ask them to? Have our negotiators been using Congress as the equivalent of the manager at the car dealership? Why are we letting the Japanese Economy Minister tell us what our Congress should do? This thing just stinks to high heaven.

552 It's clear that there is no answer to my question about why this should be done before addressing the voters face to face in town halls.

I guess there's a lot of money at stake that will make People Who Matter - clearly not American voters - even richer.

Fan-fooking-tastic.

553 Which clause of Article 2? Quote the language that says he negotiates trade agreements. I see the one about making treaties with 2/3 of the Senate's approval. Don't see anything there about trade agreements.

554 549 What's the rush?

> Rush? The Administration notified Congress of their intent to negotiate TPP in 2009. China has increasingly become more and more aggressive and have been involved in far more trade deals than we have. Why should we reward their behavior by allowing them to write the rules? When are we going to say enough is enough?

555 So we should just give the Chinese further economic control of the
region? Withdrawing from the world stage with regards to trade deals
only emboldens our enemies.

Congratulations.

You've reached the point where all I can do is point and laugh.

556 The other countries in the pact are currently refusing to continue negotiations with us unless we pass TPA.
Posted by: Miss80sBaby at June 12, 2015 04:28 PM (YjDyJ)

Well that's their problem.

There is nothing that prevents Obama from continuing to negotiate and then presenting the trade treaty before Congress. You know an open process. The concept of giving a fast track on a trade treaty without ever seeing at least the basic outline goes against republican principles. I don't care if it's been done that way before. The trust factor is gone.

557 548 If the Senate were not meant to be involved per the Constitution, Obama would not need TPA at all... nor would Congress be trying with all their might to cede their their power to amend Treaties.

> I was specifically referring to which branch has the power to negotiate. Of course Congress gets a say in free trade agreements (FTAs), and that is one of the reasons why TPA is so important.

558 I have to admit, nothing says 'Getting your say' quite like limiting debate to 20 hours.

559 >>Posted by: Miss80sBaby at June 12, 2015 05:32 PM

You are kidding. That doesn't answer my question and you know it.

Why not three weeks from now?

Is this worth losing 2016?

Don't bother to answer. Fair or not I've concluded you have a direct vested interest in this thing, either professional, personal, or fiduciary, that is coloring all of your comments.

Have a great weekend. You earned your paycheck today.

560 So we should just give the Chinese further economic control of the region? Withdrawing from the world stage with regards to trade deals only emboldens our enemies.
Posted by: Miss80sBaby at June 12, 2015 05:21 PM (YjDyJ)

Ye gads, this is pathetic. The Chinese aren't eating our lunch because of this trade deal. The Chinese are eating our lunch because we are letting them kill us economically by hollowing out our industries. A free trade agreement isn't going to change that unless we are suddenly putting tariffs on Chinese goods.

561 555 Congratulations.
You've reached the point where all I can do is point and laugh.

> You can call me whatever you like but you have yet to refute the fact that the explanation of the TPA process outlined by numerous experts- including those neutral on this entire debate- are correct.

562 560 Ye gads, this is pathetic. The Chinese aren't eating our lunch because of this trade deal. The Chinese are eating our lunch because we are letting them kill us economically by hollowing out our industries. A free trade agreement isn't going to change that unless we are suddenly putting tariffs on Chinese goods.

> Your premise is based on the idea that free trade does nothing but kill jobs. China is currently more involved in trade deals than we are and it allows them exert a greater measure of control not only over the region but globally.

563 You can call me whatever you like but you have yet to refute the fact
that the explanation of the TPA process outlined by numerous experts-
including those neutral on this entire debate- are correct.

Miss80sBaby


We have done plenty of refuting you have just ignored it all... either because you have a vested personal, professional or fiduciary interest in seeing TPA pass or because you are too brick dense to process opposing arguments. I tend to lean toward self-interested but that is giving you the benefit of the intellectual doubt.

564 > You can call me whatever you like but you have yet to refute the
fact that the explanation of the TPA process outlined by numerous
experts- including those neutral on this entire debate- are correct.

Okay, since you asked for it, I think you're a mindless automaton if you seriously think the validity of the process is some kind of winning point.

The only actual solution to China is the canned sunshine our pacific sub fleet is lugging around.

565 563 We have done plenty of refuting you have just ignored it all... either because you have a vested personal, professional or fiduciary interest in seeing TPA pass or because you are too brick dense to process opposing arguments. I tend to lean toward self-interested but that is giving you the benefit of the intellectual doubt.

> Why should I be opposed to Congress exercising its authority under a process that has been in place since the FDR Administration, especially when this TPA provides more congressional oversight than the previous one? I fully understand the fact that it is increasingly difficult to trust politicians but the process is the process. Why should any of us be prevented from seeing a potential trade deal mostly because labor unions want to kill said deal? Let us decide for ourselves whether or not it is a good deal. That is all I am asking. If it is terrible I will actively voice my opposition.

566 564 Okay, since you asked for it, I think you're a mindless automaton if you seriously think the validity of the process is some kind of winning point.

> If your argument is that you dislike the process or think it will be ignored, then your argument is not with me, in which case we should never pass another TPA. Why bother, if it is nothing but a nefarious conspiracy?

567 I go back to the question, what problem is it this trade deal is trying to solve? Almost all of the dollar volume of trade in TPP is covered by NAFTA, CAFTA, or bilateral deals (e.g., US-Japan) already, and of course all the member nations are in GATT. So exactly what nontariff barriers are we trying to address that require a process that is secret, unamendable, and unfilibusterable? We believe the current draft creates a new international bureaucracy to administer it and the President has said that it gives him leverage on climate change. Is it right to be suspicious, given the track record of this administration? Why is this a priority at all?

568 Why should I be opposed to Congress exercising its authority under a process that has been in place since the FDR Administration

Because neither this congress nor this president can be trusted to make decisions that affect any of us.

569 in which case we should never pass another TPA

Challenge accepted.

570 So if I understand you correctly, the problem is free trade, not TPA.

571 I am so glad that Rick Perry came out against this trade deal. Link in my nic. Perry was #1 for me in '12, then Cruz was sitting at #1 for awhile this cycle. Then, Perry had a superb rollout and they were tied. Now, Perry has edged Cruz for my #1 again because of this. So glad Perry has set himself apart from both Cruz and Walker.

572 No, there won't be a TPA with a President and Congress of different parties. There's no reason the Dems couldn't have given this to Obama in 2009 or 2010. But they had other priorities, like fundamental transformation.

573 So if I understand you correctly, the problem is free trade, not TPA.

If the only competitive advantage is that the labor will work to avoid the next beating rather than demand an American salary (or the related issue of costs due to environmental restrictions), yes, I am opposed to trade.

You do not have a right to do business. If there is work that needs to be done that you can't do on your own you may negotiate with citizens who are inherently your equal for a rate of pay they can accept, or you go without.

If you think restraints on your operation in this country are excessive, it is your duty to your fellow citizen to work to get those restraints relaxed. If this is asking to much loyalty from you, then you will receive none from me.

574 "We don't trust you assholes. Period."


Not a tittle.




color?

575 Can anyone name one free trade agreement in the last 30 years that resulted in a US industry dominating the market?

576 Am I the only one who remembers Ross Perot and that giant sucking sound?

He may have given the Presidency to Clinton, but he was right.

577 Posted by: Miss80sBaby at June 12, 2015 05:58 PM (YjDyJ)

When should it be seen, now or after it passes?

578 point to a website where I can see who voted for this mess!

579 Heard Paul "Ly'n" Ryan on Bill Bennett's show this morning. He claimed that those talking about the text of the TPP were wrong, because there is no text to read yet. Bustard! What's the big secret document in the basement, then, eh? They really do think you're stupid. They really do hate you. They really don't care.

Remember: No matter how cynical you are, you're not nearly cynical enough.

580 "The GOP lies to us at every turn."

Says the self-confessed liar.

581 Posted by: Ace's Brain Tumor

Your a boring little turd, Joe, beating your tiny fists of fury on a dead thread.

582 I just don't get this anti free trade bill stuff. That's suppose to be a progressive idea, why the hell are we adopting it here?