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Whose Fault Is It The Iraqis Won't Fight For Their Own Country?

The fall of Ramadi last week was another reminder that Iraqi security forces don't have the stomach to fight ISIS.

Iraqi security forces fled Ramadi without putting up a fight, despite holding as much as a 10-to-1 advantage over Islamic State militants, according to two senior U.S. defense officials.

...

In the days leading up to its fall, a combination of spectacular car bomb attacks, the ambush of an Iraq army patrol and marginal weather spooked the Iraqi forces. The trigger may have been a minor sandstorm that prompted Iraqi commanders to believe that U.S. warplanes would not be able to bomb Islamic State targets.

A phone call to U.S. officials would have cleared up that misunderstanding, one of the officials said.

Iraqi commandos, soldiers and police officers panicked when they thought they wouldn't be protected by U.S. warplanes, one official said, and abandoned their posts. They left behind U.S.-supplied vehicles and weapons, which are now in the hands of the militants.

Even if they didn't get air support, which they did, how much of it do you need when you have a 10-1 advantage against an attacking force that doesn't have any air assets in the fight?

Secretary of Defense Ash Carter had enough of this crap and called out the Iraqis over the weekend.

: What apparently happened was that the Iraqi forces just showed no will to fight. They were not out numbered but in fact they vastly outnumbered the opposing force, and yet they failed to fight. They withdrew from the site. And that says to me, and I think to most of us, that we have an issue with the will of the Iraqis to fight ISIL and defend themselves.

Now, we can give them training, we can give them equipment; we obviously can't give them the will to fight. But if we give them training, we give them equipment and give them support and give them some time, I hope they will develop the will to fight, because only if they fight can ISIL remain defeated.

Aside from the absurd notion that ISIL/ISIS is in any way "defeated", Carter is right. We've spent over a decade and billions of dollars providing training and advanced weapons to our Iraqi "allies" and this is the product we've managed to produce.

There are some groups willing to fight...the Iranian backed Shia militias. Unfortunately setting them loose in the Sunni regions creates as many, if not more, problems than it solves.

Writing before Carter's remarks Max Boot seems pretty sure he knows who is responsible for the Iraqis' failure...America.

Imagine that a vicious street gang were terrorizing a neighborhood of Detroit or South Central Los Angeles. Would we blame the residents for not being willing to confront the gang on their own and thereby conclude that the residents were not worth saving? Of course not. Because we would recognize that a small number of heavily armed toughs can terrorize a neighborhood—and if sufficiently vicious they can even cow the local police force. That doesn’t mean that the residents want to live under the domination of the street gang, any more than Iraqis today want to live under the domination of ISIS or the Quds Force. The problem is that they don’t feel strong enough at the moment to rise up against those terrorist organizations.

This is nonsense.

Iraq isn't a scared resident living in fear of the gang-bangers hanging out on the corner. Again, it's a country with a large military that has been lavishly equipped and trained by the United States of America. To accept this argument you have to accept the notion that the US will be responsible for Iraqi security forever. After all, police don't come in, sweep the neighborhood of bad guys and then tell the previously scared residents they are now in charge of keeping the area safe.

The Iraqis may not want to live under ISIS but to date they haven't shown a willingness to use the tools they have to avoid that outcome, regardless of how much support we give them.

Sure, they might be willing to fight to the last American but that's not really a selling point for a policy in the US.

More Boot.

The reason that today we consistently see small ISIS formations scattering much larger Iraqi units is that the Iraqi units have been undermined from within by corruption and sectarianism. Iraqi soldiers today are badly trained, badly led, badly supplied, badly motivated. But that’s not the fault of rank and file troops. The blame goes to the Shite sectarians who have dominated Baghdad since the American pullout in 2011.

Again, nonsense.

It was former Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki who oversaw the hollowing out of the Iraqi military. But let's not pretend he was a creature of Obama. Far from it. He was the man the Bush administration picked for the job.

Frustrated, [American Ambassador in Baghdad, Zalmay] Khalilzad turned to the C.I.A. analyst assigned to his office, a fluent Arabic speaker whose job was to know Iraq’s leaders. “Can it be that, in this country of thirty million people, the choice of Prime Minister is either Jaafari, who is incompetent, or Ali Adeeb, who is Iranian? Isn’t there anyone else?”

“I have a name for you,” the C.I.A. officer said. “Maliki.”

...

That night, during a long dinner at the American Embassy, Khalilzad asked Maliki if he’d considered becoming Prime Minister. Khalilzad recalled, laughing, that Maliki gave a startled jump. But, as the two men talked, Maliki said that he could indeed secure the votes, and so, as the dinner broke up, well past midnight, Khalilzad told an aide to get the White House on the phone. “We let Washington know there was a change of plans,” Khalilzad said. Sunni and Kurdish politicians endorsed his candidacy. Within three months, Maliki had become Iraq’s Prime Minister.

So is the argument that we should have stayed longer to make sure our guy did our bidding? I thought one of the goals of the Operation Iraqi Freedom was to ensure the Iraqis themselves ran their country. Well, Malaki won several terms following elections. Now it turns out our goal was to serve as puppet masters?

Don't hurt yourselves moving those goalposts.

We can't rightly take credit for helping the Iraqis throw off a brutal dictator so they can have the freedom to run their own country and then blame ourselves when they make choices we don't like.

I really hate the focus on "knowing what we know now, would you still have supported the invasion?" idiocy.

The better question is along the lines of, "knowing what we know now about the political and sectarian issues of a country like Iraq, do you think preemptive regime change followed by a lengthy US occupation and rebuilding effort is a viable policy option moving forward?"

As someone who supported the Iraq invasion/liberation and is disappointed our assumptions were wrong, I'm more interested in knowing what candidates (who other than Hillary Clinton) who had nothing to do with the Iraq decision, think about this policy moving forward. To say, Syria.

We can also apply this to the Libya model of intervention, which isn't working out so well either. Someone should ask Hillary about that one.

Regardless of what you think of what happened in Iraq in 2011, if we live in Boot's fantasy land where we ignore the nature of the people we are dealing with and simply blame America (which voted for Obama twice in part on his dealing with Iraq), we will make more costly mistakes in the future.

Posted by: DrewM. at 11:14 AM




Comments

(Jump to bottom of comments)

1 Cowards.

Posted by: NCKate at May 26, 2015 11:16 AM (zGDNi)

2 Whose Fault Is It The Iraqis Won't Fight For Their Own Country?


*rolls over sleepily, around 1 p.m.*

hnghh?

Posted by: college grad with 200k in loans planning to live with Mom and Dad forever at May 26, 2015 11:19 AM (XVOlz)

3 Well Drew, it just proves that you can not install democracy (or a free country) from without. The people have to do it, and people who have a leaning toward 6th century savagery based on a phony religion have no desire for freedom.


And the other bad thing about this is that every time these clowns run away they drop all those US weapons. We are ISIS' largest weapon supplier.

Posted by: Vic We Have No Party at May 26, 2015 11:20 AM (GpgJl)

4 Can't I just lick my cone and watch ESPN? Racist bitter clingers.

Posted by: President NPD at May 26, 2015 11:20 AM (NPgvx)

5 I heard there were nudes here...

*looks around*


Posted by: Moderate Salami at May 26, 2015 11:21 AM (/Ho8c)

6 Imagine that a vicious street gang were terrorizing a neighborhood of Detroit or South Central Los Angeles.



What an imagination this guy has got.

Posted by: Jay Guevara at May 26, 2015 11:21 AM (oKE6c)

7 But seriously, how dare an American president eat ice cream on Memorial Day? My outrage meter is up to 11 on this one. If he does not resign because of this, then he must be impeached.

Posted by: Truth at May 26, 2015 11:21 AM (ibvmu)

8 I hate liberturdians

Posted by: Uncle Rick at May 26, 2015 11:22 AM (ZbB1q)

9 And BTW, this is why I am totally against "nation building". And Bush ran on a platform that said no nation building.

Posted by: Vic We Have No Party at May 26, 2015 11:22 AM (GpgJl)

10 And heeeres Hector!


Posted by: some random meathead at May 26, 2015 11:23 AM (XVOlz)

11

What difference, at this point, does it make?!/11!??!?!11?/??

Posted by: Hillary Clinton at May 26, 2015 11:23 AM (HSmrB)

12 It really disturbs me when I agree with Drew.
Whole frakking week is going this way. Floods, finances, psychotic neighbors, illness and now Drew seems to make sense.

Come to me SMOD.

Posted by: Hopped Up On Something at May 26, 2015 11:23 AM (NHtMs)

13 I really hate the focus on "knowing what we know now, would you still have supported the invasion?" idiocy.



We can turn it around to libtards: "knowing what we know now, would you still have voted for Barky?"

Posted by: Jay Guevara at May 26, 2015 11:23 AM (oKE6c)

14 5 I heard there were nudes here...

*looks around*


Posted by: Moderate Salami at May 26, 2015 11:21 AM (/Ho8c)

Yoo hoo!

Posted by: Helen Thomas at May 26, 2015 11:24 AM (2Ojst)

15 So do we have this nation building thing down yet? You need good seeds to grow a garden.

Posted by: Your Congress at May 26, 2015 11:24 AM (wkuqO)

16 Lee Harris's essay on Islam's "fantasy ideology" remains relevant:

http://tinyurl.com/28kjo66

"its fantasy ideology reflects the same philosophical occasionalism that pervades so much of Islamic theology: That is to say, event b does not happen because it is caused by a previous event a. Instead, event a is simply the occasion for God to cause event b, so that the genuine cause of all events occurring on our ontological plane of existence is nothing else but God. But if this is so, then the 'real' world that we take for granted simply vanishes, and all becomes determined by the will of God; and in this manner the line between realist and magical thinking dissolves."

If ISIS is dominating at the moment, it must be the will of Allah. Run away!

Posted by: Feh at May 26, 2015 11:24 AM (+xx19)

17 I heard there were nudes here...

*looks around*




Posted by: Moderate Salami at May 26, 2015 11:21 AM (/Ho8c

I'll send pics.

Posted by: Face size spider in AtC's bathroom at May 26, 2015 11:25 AM (kQBSd)

18 They won't fight because they are stupid, myopic cowards.

They have no tradition of fighting to protect their freedom.

They can't fight like Americans because they are not Americans.

Posted by: eman at May 26, 2015 11:25 AM (MQEz6)

19 I don't have the time or patience to argue what happened 14 years ago.

Today: We should be arming and helping and any way possible, including boots on the ground, with those that are willing to fight: The Kurds and who ever else wants to throw in with decency, and life. The rest can go to hell, they are living there anyway

Posted by: Nevergiveup at May 26, 2015 11:25 AM (rDqRv)

20 *retches violently*

Posted by: Moderate Salami at May 26, 2015 11:25 AM (/Ho8c)

21 have a nice day the sun is just rising now I'm going for my walk while I drink my coffee and try to forget all the bad crap going on in the world stay safe people....

Posted by: phoenixgirl at May 26, 2015 11:26 AM (e/33/)

22 Thx, Mr. Spider.

*watches email inbox*

Posted by: Moderate Salami at May 26, 2015 11:26 AM (/Ho8c)

23 There was a link this morning from The Atlantic which stated it was all Bush's fault from 2003. So that is what people will be saying for centuries to come.

Posted by: Yes means Maybe at May 26, 2015 11:26 AM (7wyDO)

24
We've spent over a decade and billions of dollars providing training and advanced weapons to our Iraqi "allies" and this is the product we've managed to produce.




Seriously. Back in the day, after 10 years and a similar investment, we had a Bundeswehr that gave the Bolshies conniptions, and a JDF that could fight Godzilla to a draw.

Even the ARVN put up a fight against much worst odds.

Posted by: Laurie David's Cervix at May 26, 2015 11:26 AM (kdS6q)

25 Barack Obama is a SCOAMT.

Posted by: AllenG (DedicatedTenther) - Not dead yet at May 26, 2015 11:26 AM (kff5f)

26 Mohammedanism is an evil death cult.

Posted by: AllenG (DedicatedTenther) - Not dead yet at May 26, 2015 11:26 AM (kff5f)

27 Burn it down.
Scatter the stones.
Salt the earth where it stood.

Posted by: AllenG (DedicatedTenther) - Not dead yet at May 26, 2015 11:26 AM (kff5f)

28 Fantasy ideology would also explain why the Iraqi's couldn't comprehend the valor of US Marines Yale and Haertner, who stopped a jihadi in a truck bomb from slaughtering hundreds of people.

Posted by: Feh at May 26, 2015 11:27 AM (+xx19)

29
If I lived in Iraq, my sole concern wd be to get me and my family out of the middle east.

Posted by: Bruce But Not Jenner at May 26, 2015 11:27 AM (iQIUe)

30 We are ISIS' largest weapon supplier.
Posted by: Vic We Have No Party at May 26, 2015 11:20 AM (GpgJl)


And we aren't even gettin paid...

Posted by: cajun caret at May 26, 2015 11:27 AM (UZQM8)

31 Our strategy needs more level bombing.

A lot more level bombing.

We've intentionally removed any punitive actions from our foreign policy options, so it is no wonder we keep failing.

Yeah, the carrot of money is nice, but without the stick people will just take the money and make it disappear.

If tomorrow ISIS cities started disappearing under a cloud of B-52s the Sunnis would suddenly become a lot more concerned about losing land to them.

Posted by: 18-1 at May 26, 2015 11:27 AM (78TbK)

32 then the 'real' world that we take for granted simply vanishes, and all
becomes determined by the will of God; and in this manner the line
between realist and magical thinking dissolves


Interesting bit of narcissism in the Muslims presumption to have 'special knowledge' of the divine will.

Did they bother to ask Allah?

Posted by: some random meathead at May 26, 2015 11:27 AM (XVOlz)

33 Can't I just eat my waffle cone?

Posted by: King Barry at May 26, 2015 11:27 AM (NHtMs)

34 Hey--you guys over there! I want all my f#@&ing jerseys back. Tell Obama that a bunch of JV players have stolen all my game jerseys.

Posted by: Kobe Bryant at May 26, 2015 11:27 AM (UlJ3l)

35 I feel sorry for the iraqi lady and her husband who did get out of iraq and he end up being murdered by a thug in Tx.

Posted by: Bruce But Not Jenner at May 26, 2015 11:28 AM (iQIUe)

36 I thought we agreed to blame Climate Change for the rise of ISIS.

Posted by: Fritz at May 26, 2015 11:28 AM (ty633)

37
Posted by: Face size spider in AtC's bathroom at May 26, 2015 11:25 AM (kQBSd)

The Ravage knows how to work the google machine, wrg500!

Posted by: Bandersnatch at May 26, 2015 11:28 AM (JtwS4)

38 Fredo is giving Iran the Bomb and 50% of Iraq. Not a bad day's work

Posted by: Nevergiveup at May 26, 2015 11:29 AM (rDqRv)

39 There was and Israeli General how commenting on his great military victories, ans said something to the effect: "The reason for my success is that I only fight Arab Armies."

Posted by: Paladin at May 26, 2015 11:29 AM (bxc5w)

40 We are ISIS' largest weapon supplier.
___
Hey, I armed the Mexican cartels too, so it is only fair.

Posted by: Barack Obama at May 26, 2015 11:29 AM (78TbK)

41 And Bush ran on a platform that said no nation building.
Posted by: Vic We Have No Party at May 26, 2015 11:22 AM (GpgJl)


And Wilson ran on "He Kept Us Out of War"

Posted by: Bertram Cabot Jr. at May 26, 2015 11:29 AM (W5DcG)

42 Imagine that a vicious street gang were terrorizing a neighborhood of Detroit or South Central Los Angeles. Would we blame the residents for not being willing to confront the gang on their own and thereby conclude that the residents were not worth saving?
------

Don't be silly. We would push for stricter gun laws.

Posted by: RWC - Team BOHICA at May 26, 2015 11:29 AM (fWAjv)

43 Hillary slept through the Libyan adventure. That's her excuse and she's sticking to it.

Posted by: MTF at May 26, 2015 11:29 AM (FCsIb)

44 Hillary slept through the Libyan adventure. That's her excuse and she's sticking to it.

Posted by: MTF at May 26, 2015 11:29 AM (FCsIb)

45
Posted by: Bandersnatch at May 26, 2015 11:28 AM (JtwS4)

lol

Posted by: wrg500 at May 26, 2015 11:29 AM (kQBSd)

46 You can't fix the Middle East because at the end of the day, their religion is the problem. Much of the Iraqi population sympathizes with ISIS, remember, we're the infidels.

People take for granted how much Christianity "civilized"the Western world, because all we hear about from academics and historians are things like the Crusades or the Inquisition.

I don't want to see another American boot on the ground in the Middle East unless they've attacked us first. Then we level them and leave, the hell with "fixing it because we broke it". It was broken long before we got there.

Posted by: McAdams at May 26, 2015 11:29 AM (B0j+p)

47 hair trigger on that "post" button, I guess. Maybe an external safety would help.

Posted by: MTF at May 26, 2015 11:30 AM (FCsIb)

48 13 I really hate the focus on "knowing what we know now, would you still have supported the invasion?" idiocy.

We can turn it around to libtards: "knowing what we know now, would you still have voted for Barky?"
Posted by: Jay Guevara at May 26, 2015 11:23 AM (oKE6c)

The proper response:

If I had know that my successor would waste the ultimate sacrifice of our brave troops for political expediency, then no.

Posted by: Drill_Thrawl at May 26, 2015 11:30 AM (JOG+K)

49 41 And Wilson ran on "He Kept Us Out of War"



Posted by: Bertram Cabot Jr. at May 26, 2015 11:29 AM (W5DcG)

At least he had a valid excuse.

Posted by: Vic We Have No Party at May 26, 2015 11:30 AM (GpgJl)

50 Morning... Trust You all had a good Holiday.... Back to reality and it it stinks...

Posted by: donna at May 26, 2015 11:30 AM (Bn6aD)

51 Germany and Japan had the foundations of civilization to fall back on when we forced them to change. We had the guts to enforce Western values on them, back when we believed in Western values.

Iraq and the ME have what, a civilization destroyed a millennia ago by radical Islam? Yet dreamy-eyed Wilsonians like Carter and Bush keep going in and striking down their strong men so that everyone can vote! For a strong man.

The words of one State Dept. Bushie, shocked by the insurgency, still haunt me. "Why is this happening?! We have all the sects represented in parliament!"

They don't want your stinking parliament. Don't you get it?

Please, someone stop it.

Posted by: PJ at May 26, 2015 11:31 AM (cHuNI)

52 There are two keys to making them a fighting force instead of a running force. A fatwah from a respected Iman or an edict from the Tribal Leaders. They will never fight 'For Iraq' with the present corrupt leadership .

Posted by: Cruzinator at May 26, 2015 11:31 AM (8cSVB)

53 As per usual, Drew is full of bluster, ignorance, and offensive condescension. He calls everything Boot says "nonsense," but doesn't prove it. He does not address, and probably is not aware, of the fact that Maliki was in power and reasonably effective for years; that the collapse of the Iraqi military came after the US withdrawal, after Obama scuttled thw SOFA, and after he rejected Iraqi pleas for reconsideration, and after he told the Sunnis to get fucked when they complained about Maliki later. That the Iraqi collapse was predicted by people throughout the American IC (like me), and were ignored. Not only was it the fault of the US, it was actually foreseen and done on purpose by the fuck wit in the White House.

Stop pretending you're some strategic mastermind and political guru. Your overweening ignorance and self righteousness is infuriating to those who actually know what they're talking about. Leave this ego stroking bullshit at Vox.

Posted by: who cares at May 26, 2015 11:31 AM (9kWU1)

54 I think part of the "will to fight" issue comes down to the whole "evil death cult" thing.

If even a significant enough portion of them really believe that ISIS is the Mohammedan Caliphate destined to rule the world, they don't *want* to fight them. But they're not *sure* so they don't want to abandon their (relatively) cushy jobs.

The reason the Iranian backed militias are willing to fight is that they specifically *don't* believe that ISIS is the Mohammedan Caliphate- that they're heretics.

Posted by: AllenG (DedicatedTenther) - Not dead yet at May 26, 2015 11:31 AM (kff5f)

55 44 Hillary slept through the Libyan adventure. That's her excuse and she's sticking to it.
Posted by: MTF
_____________________

The hangovers after downing two handles of Old Charter the night before are hell.

Posted by: Furious George at May 26, 2015 11:31 AM (UlJ3l)

56 Much of the Iraqi population sympathizes with ISIS, remember, we're the infidels.


Well not really. The problem is Iraq is not really a Country. Certainly the Kurds and Shiites don't sympathize with ISIS. But yes we are the Infidels.

Posted by: Nevergiveup at May 26, 2015 11:31 AM (rDqRv)

57 And Barky ran on Hope and Change, where Hope takes the place of positive action and the only change is what's left in your pocket.

Posted by: OneEyedJack at May 26, 2015 11:31 AM (XmOA9)

58 How to deal with this?

Orbit, nuke, surety.

Some assembly required.

Posted by: Drill_Thrawl at May 26, 2015 11:31 AM (JOG+K)

59 That's too sensible, McAdams, and it benefits America. Have you got something stupider and more damaging to American interests?

Posted by: Lord Obama at May 26, 2015 11:32 AM (+xx19)

60 nature abhors a vacuum and when the US pulled out of the Middle East and ANNOUNCED IT IN ADVANCE, the writing was on the wall

Posted by: Nevergiveup at May 26, 2015 11:33 AM (rDqRv)

61 I wonder how many of the Iraqi forces are supportive of ISIS? How hard would you gight knowing that the guy next to you might rat out your family to the nearest ISIS informant.

Given that there is no real "nation" there, just a bunch of tribes who don't trust each other it's not suprising they just devolve back into every mam for himself.

Posted by: nnptcgrad at May 26, 2015 11:33 AM (h/CCJ)

62 Posted by: PJ at May 26, 2015 11:31 AM (cHuNI)

It was working in Iraq. It takes more time to establish and no time to destroy.

Posted by: Cruzinator at May 26, 2015 11:33 AM (8cSVB)

63 I have half a mind to say seize and secure the oil fields and ports, turn it over to, for example, Halliburton, and say "Defend it as you see fit. We see nothing."

Posted by: LibertarianJim at May 26, 2015 11:34 AM (frZol)

64 We are ISIS' largest weapon supplier.

Posted by: Vic We Have No Party at May 26, 2015 11:20 AM (GpgJl)




Well, a fellow does his best.

Posted by: Leland Yee at May 26, 2015 11:34 AM (oKE6c)

65 "In battle, the moral is to the physical as three to one." -Napoleon Bonaparte.

"Ten to one." George Patton

Posted by: Raspail at May 26, 2015 11:34 AM (PQnna)

66 You guys want to talk about blind squirrels finding a nut? Joey paste-eater Biden was the one who suggested that Iraq be partitioned into 3 autonomous regions. He was patted on the head and told to shut up.

Clearly, and using the words of the day, knowing then what we know now, it would have been the best solution, and we wouldn't have the clusterfuck of failure that is Iraq now.

Posted by: OneEyedJack at May 26, 2015 11:34 AM (XmOA9)

67

So how do Germany and Japan square with no nation building?

I don't mean that sarcastically, BTW.

Posted by: irongrampa at May 26, 2015 11:34 AM (jeCnD)

68
That the Iraqi collapse was predicted by people throughout the American IC (like me), and were ignored....Stop pretending you're some strategic mastermind and political guru. Your overweening ignorance and self righteousness is infuriating to those who actually know what they're talking about.
Posted by: who cares




If you're such a BSD in the intelligence community, why are you dicking around here?

Go write a memo or something.

Posted by: Laurie David's Cervix at May 26, 2015 11:35 AM (kdS6q)

69 Much of the Iraqi population sympathizes with ISIS, remember, we're the infidels.





Well not really. The problem is Iraq is not really a Country.
Certainly the Kurds and Shiites don't sympathize with ISIS. But yes we
are the Infidels.

Posted by: Nevergiveup

But the Sunni population does and that is where they are given aid and comfort.

Posted by: McAdams at May 26, 2015 11:35 AM (B0j+p)

70 Another possibility that nobody seems to mention is that the Iraqi "soldiers" actually support ISIS's goals. They may be running away not so much out of cowardice (although that is a distinct possibility), but because they want ISIS to win.

Posted by: Monkeytoe at May 26, 2015 11:35 AM (3ZtZW)

71 Posted by: who cares at May 26, 2015 11:31 AM (9kWU1)

Bam!

Posted by: Cruzinator at May 26, 2015 11:35 AM (8cSVB)

72 Imagine there is a neighborhood controlled by gangs. Like in Detroit!, Baltimore, South Side of Chicago, Berkeley, Oakland, East LA.

Imagine the police are restricted in what they can do. When the police try to arrest someone for a minor offense, crowds of people attack the police, like in Florida.

Imagine that ordinary people, including people with military experience are denied ownership of firearms as a means of personal defense and imagine that only gangs have guns.

Imagine we have a vocal minority that proclaim the innocence of anyone arrested by the police, and instead say it was the police that provoked the dispute or escalated it when they arrived and started using excessive force. Imagine that vocal minority claims that innocent people are imprisoned just because of their race, that too many people of one race are in prison.

Imagine that we have a vocal minority that accuse the police of murdering the people they arrest for minor crimes or for no crime other than failing to submit to police authority.

Now imagine that we have elected a president, twice, that encourages that minority to band together in common cause to fight the government by attacking police, city hall, or the governor's office.

The only thing saving US right now is we can't find gang bangers willing to drive a truck load of explosive through the front door of city hall. Fortunately we have recruiters in prison taking care of that right now.

Posted by: Pipi Gormanski at May 26, 2015 11:36 AM (nMu6r)

73 Bush was so stupid. I'm going to give the bomb to Iran and let them do the nation building.
It was Val's idea but I'm the President.

Posted by: King Barry at May 26, 2015 11:36 AM (NHtMs)

74 lol

Posted by: Moderate Salami at May 26, 2015 11:37 AM (/Ho8c)

75 Unfortunately, I believe Drew is wrong. In SE Asia, the indigenous forces suffered from a number of short comings - the fighters were often very young and under trained, and they had no real concept of allegiance to their country. Because of this, they would often cut and run in a fight.

Many, many times (I saw it first hand), just having an American adviser (or several) who would stick it out in the middle of a fight was enough to give them the confidence to hold the line. This wasn't unique. It happened all the time.

It's happened all throughout history that a strong leader stayed in a desperate fight and turned fearful, uncertain troops into victors.

Iraqis have no real sense of patriotism, I don't think, what with their sectarian leadership and all.

An American presence could have mitigated a lot of the sectarianism and I think it would have buoyed up the military by giving them confidence that a strong power stood at their shoulder.

Posted by: LoneStarHeeb at May 26, 2015 11:37 AM (BZAd3)

76 I'll send pics.
Posted by: Face size spider in AtC's bathroom at May 26, 2015 11:25 AM (kQBSd)



*hands Bandersnatch a good flame retardant suit*

*flamethrows the thread*

Posted by: alexthechick - Oh please intervene SMOD at May 26, 2015 11:37 AM (mf5HN)

77 67


So how do Germany and Japan square with no nation building?

I don't mean that sarcastically, BTW.


Posted by: irongrampa at May 26, 2015 11:34 AM (jeCnD)

They were already "built" and both had strong moral fiber and a willingness to pull themselves up. IOW they were not 6th century savages.


But, other than the Russians and the Chinese communists there was no reason for us to stay in those countries either. They could have recovered on their own.

Posted by: Vic We Have No Party at May 26, 2015 11:37 AM (GpgJl)

78 There's a particular form of fatalism endemic in Islam. 'It's the will of Allah' is a major fault in their society, and allows the opening for rotten people to seize and keep power.

It probably plays strongly into collapsing before the assault of a lot of bloodthirsty co-religionists who claim Allah's right hand.

Posted by: Pappy O'Daniel at May 26, 2015 11:38 AM (oVJmc)

79 65.

I'll see your Napoleon and raise you a Kissinger:

"It may be dangerous to be America's enemy, but to be America's friend is fatal."

Posted by: Lenny at May 26, 2015 11:38 AM (PQnna)

80 But the Sunni population does and that is where they are given aid and comfort.
Posted by: McAdams at May 26, 2015 11:35 AM (B0j+p)

Well yes and no. After the Iraqi surge under President Bush and Anbar awakening, the Sunni Tribal Leaders were on board. But then Fredo threw away all the hard one gains from that and threw our lot in 100% with the Shiite Iranian rat Maliki and we threw all that good will away and drove, actually drove the Sunni's in the Anbar Provence to ISIS and other radical groups.

Posted by: Nevergiveup at May 26, 2015 11:39 AM (rDqRv)

81 finally, a really useful slideshow/list!

The "32 hottest comediennes", from Playboy (does that still exist?). (via Sarah Beattie)


http://bit.ly/1F8pT1B

Posted by: MTF at May 26, 2015 11:39 AM (FCsIb)

82 *stops, drops, and rolls, to no avail*

Posted by: Moderate Salami at May 26, 2015 11:39 AM (/Ho8c)

83 "So how do Germany and Japan square with no nation building?"

They were real nations before we hit reset.

Plus, they had good work cultures and would make good trading partners.

Posted by: Feh at May 26, 2015 11:39 AM (+xx19)

84 This entire post is nonsense. What the Iraqis don't have is LEADERSHIP. Give me a couple of dozen US lieutenants who say to their men "Follow me!" and I'll wipe ISIS off the map with those same Iraqi soldiers that you're denigrating. Instead the entire army leadership says "You go fight, I'll be right over here in Monaco". Of course the men run away, who wouldn't?

That's the culture of avoiding responsibility for anything lest you be executed that decades under a dictator fosters, and that's what has to be broken for a stable and effective fighting force to emerge. It's a generational commitment, the role of the US was to be the backbone to make sure the Iraqi "leadership" couldn't run away from a fight, because we wouldn't let them and , more importantly, we'd be standing behind them when push came to shove. As a new generation, raised in a culture of fortitude comes to power, we could step away and allow then to stand on their own.

As it is, Iraq is akin to a toddler. We stayed until it stood on it's own holding onto the coffee table, then we left. Now posts like this are screaming abuse in the toddler's face because it can't run a 4.4 40 yet. Ridiculous.

Posted by: Weirddave at May 26, 2015 11:40 AM (WvS3w)

85
a few headlines

dailymail.co.uk
/news/article-3097033/
ISIS burn woman alive refusing extreme sex-act reveals official

dailymail.co.uk
/news/article-3097092/
Islamic preacher warns men masturbate hands will get PREGNANT look after hand offspring in afterlife

Posted by: Yo! at May 26, 2015 11:40 AM (W6iIX)

86 The Iraqis may not want to live under ISIS but to date they haven't shown a willingness to use the tools they have to avoid that outcome, regardless of how much support we give them.
--------------------------------

They also are on the same side as ISIS. They don't like civil war, because it terrorizes the goat population.

Posted by: Roy at May 26, 2015 11:40 AM (VndSC)

87 An American presence could have mitigated a lot of the sectarianism and I think it would have buoyed up the military by giving them confidence that a strong power stood at their shoulder.
Posted by: LoneStarHeeb at May 26, 2015 11:37 AM (BZAd3)

Yup. America could not build a nation in Iraq, but we did and could have going forward given them cover to try. Fredo threw that all away along with all the gains and sacrifice of the American and ALlied Millitary that was hard won during the Surge

Posted by: Nevergiveup at May 26, 2015 11:40 AM (rDqRv)

88 In Germany and Japan we bombed the crap out of them and made it clear that opposing the us would get you killed. In Iraq weve just basically been handing out money...

Posted by: 18-1 at May 26, 2015 11:41 AM (78TbK)

89
Strong horse - weak horse.

The relative "pacification" of Iraq was the result of years of building trust between US military authorities and tribal elders. Months of talking softly and carrying a big stick paid off handsomely. Ramadi c. 2008 is the textbook example. But no one trusts the Obamanauts, especially the Sunni tribes, now that Barry is giving Iran carte blanche in Iraq. Iran with nuclear weapons will leave the Iraqi Sunnis utterly defenseless. ISIS is the Sunni strong horse at the moment, a better choice than getting nuked by their Shi'ite overlords.

Posted by: mrp at May 26, 2015 11:41 AM (JBggj)

90 Okay. I have a question because this bothers the hell out of me and has for years and years and years.

Do the people shrieking Bush lied and people died not get that the intelligence services lying about WMD is better than the alternative that pretty much every single intelligence agency in the entire world got the most pressing intelligence matter of the time completely wrong? I mean, they get that, right? That malfeasance is actually a more comforting notion than the realization that when push came to shove, the intelligence agencies got it wrong.

I am, for purposes of this discussion, leaving out that whole pesky oh you mean these WMD thing.

Posted by: alexthechick - Oh please intervene SMOD at May 26, 2015 11:42 AM (mf5HN)

91 Over the weekend I saw a YouTube video of a prisoner execution utilizing a bazooka.

We need to get that guy to develop our ME strategy.

Posted by: President Funnyface at May 26, 2015 11:42 AM (ty633)

92 "There
are only two forces in the world, the sword and the spirit. In the long
run the sword will always be conquered by the spirit."
-- Napoleon

And if you don't have it the sword always wins regardless of the dialectic of forces.

Posted by: drdog09 at May 26, 2015 11:42 AM (ZVUS/)

93 How about the spirit with a sword.

Posted by: Feh at May 26, 2015 11:44 AM (+xx19)

94
66 You guys want to talk about blind squirrels finding a nut? Joey paste-eater Biden was the one who suggested that Iraq be partitioned into 3 autonomous regions. He was patted on the head and told to shut up. Clearly, and using the words of the day, knowing then what we know now, it would have been the best solution, and we wouldn't have the clusterfuck of failure that is Iraq now.
Posted by: OneEyedJack at May 26, 2015 11:34 AM (XmOA9)


That really wouldn't have worked. How things are going now, maybe it seems like it. But ISIS has invaded and taken over portions of the Kurdish territory. And I see no reason they will stop once they reach a Sunni/Shiite border. They don't want their own region. They want it all. And not just all of Iraq.

Posted by: buzzion at May 26, 2015 11:44 AM (zt+N6)

95 Fredo threw that all away along with all the gains and sacrifice of the American and ALlied Millitary that was hard won during the Surge
Posted by: Nevergiveup at May 26, 2015 11:40 AM (rDqRv)

A lot of being victorious is learning to be victorious. Iraqis had never experienced (in any real sense) having achieved victory over a capable foe. America staying the course could have provided them with that experience.

Posted by: LoneStarHeeb at May 26, 2015 11:44 AM (BZAd3)

96 The better question is along the lines of, "knowing what we know now about the political and sectarian issues of a country like Iraq, do you think preemptive regime change followed by a lengthy US occupation and rebuilding effort is a viable policy option moving forward?"


Yes, yes, yes, a hundred times yes, but only if the "lengthy US occupation and rebuilding effort" is a generational commitment. 25 years at the minimum, more likely 50.

Otherwise we're just wasting lives.

And I'm not convinced a representational Democratic Republic can make commitments of that length. It would be nice if we could, the world would be a so much better place, but the selfish electorate won't stand for it and the greedy politicians can't help themselves from exploiting it for their own gain.

Posted by: Weirddave at May 26, 2015 11:46 AM (WvS3w)

97 "... it just proves that you can not install democracy (or a free country) from without. The people have to do it, and people who have a leaning toward 6th century savagery based on a phony religion have no desire for freedom."

What the fuck is wrong with the United States?

We need a President who will announce that Iraq is no longer a country. That it is now East Florida and the United States owns the country.

Who the fuck would stop us? Or even care?

Every other potential solution to the Iraq problem has been tried an failed.

It's time to just take over the country and plant our flag.

Posted by: someguy at May 26, 2015 11:46 AM (3z91g)

98 You know what's really funny? OK I'll tell you anyway. I have a friend who spent his whole tour humping around interdicting weapons smuggling from Syria into Iraq.
People DIED out there doing that.
Hysterical.

Posted by: Hopped Up On Something Why yes, I am bitter. at May 26, 2015 11:47 AM (NHtMs)

99 1. We ain't got no time machine.

2. Iraq is, like it or not, inextricably linked with our gaping strategy deficit in the wider theater.

3. There is exactly zero appetite from anybody for reintroducing a heavy U.S. ground presence.

I said on this very blog that it would get really ugly after our withdrawal. It's ugly now, but not nearly as bad where we will be a year from now.

Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at May 26, 2015 11:47 AM (659DL)

100 The only thing saving US right now is we can't find
gang bangers willing to drive a truck load of explosive through the
front door of city hall. Fortunately we have recruiters in prison taking
care of that right now.

Posted by: Pipi Gormanski at May 26, 2015 11:36 AM (nMu6r)


Depending on the city hall, that might be a step in the right direction.

Posted by: Jay Guevara at May 26, 2015 11:48 AM (oKE6c)

101
*doffs flameproof suit*

*sniffs inside*


Mmmmmm. She's worn this!

Posted by: Bandersnatch at May 26, 2015 11:49 AM (JtwS4)

102 Yes, yes, yes, a hundred times yes, but only if the "lengthy US
occupation and rebuilding effort" is a generational commitment. 25 years
at the minimum, more likely 50.



Otherwise we're just wasting lives.




Exactly.

Posted by: Jay Guevara at May 26, 2015 11:49 AM (oKE6c)

103 You know what's really funny? OK I'll tell you anyway. I have a friend
who spent his whole tour humping around interdicting weapons smuggling
from Syria into Iraq.

People DIED out there doing that.

Hysterical.


Strangely, I fail to see the humor in this.

Hope your friend is well.

Posted by: Moderate Salami at May 26, 2015 11:49 AM (/Ho8c)

104 nation building in islam is un-possible, a total waste of time

Posted by: Yo! at May 26, 2015 11:49 AM (W6iIX)

105
Mmmmmm. She's worn this!

Posted by: Bandersnatch


That's so unfair!

Posted by: Moderate Salami at May 26, 2015 11:49 AM (/Ho8c)

106 Dems are always throwing away military victories.

We need some kind of military conquest insurance policy.
The military should say - you want us to conquer X? Fine, but here's the contract - then they lay out the minimum conditions required to hold the damn place for the next 20 years.

Posted by: @votermom at May 26, 2015 11:49 AM (r7YCa)

107
I still find it amusing that Saddam managed to hoodwink EVERY intel agency in the world about having WMD in dangerous quantity.

I also think, under the bravado, he was totally serious about bigger and better.

Posted by: irongrampa at May 26, 2015 11:50 AM (jeCnD)

108 Say what you want, but when President Bush left Officer, Iraq was stable. A great place to vacation, yeah no. A model for future conflicts. yeah no. A place to invest money, I don't think so. But if America had stayed the course, we would not be where we are today. And from day 1 everyone but the Israelis ( and even they were warned off by the USA) fucked the Kurds in every way possible.

Posted by: Nevergiveup at May 26, 2015 11:50 AM (rDqRv)

109 Without the US staying in Korea for at least the first ten to fifteen years after the ceasefire , the South would have never been able to stabilize enough to avoid internal strife and covert infiltration by the North. It would have looked like Iraq today.

Posted by: Cruzinator at May 26, 2015 11:50 AM (8cSVB)

110 Mmmmmm. She's worn this!

Posted by: Bandersnatch at May 26, 2015 11:49 AM (JtwS4)

Damn 1%er.

Posted by: wrg500 at May 26, 2015 11:50 AM (kQBSd)

111 101
*doffs flameproof suit*

*sniffs inside*


Mmmmmm. She's worn this!
Posted by: Bandersnatch at May 26, 2015 11:49 AM (JtwS4)

So your left leg was protected, what about the rest of your body?

Posted by: Insomniac at May 26, 2015 11:50 AM (2Ojst)

112 The Iraqis fight the way I diet, we'll start tomorrow.

Posted by: The Great White Snark at May 26, 2015 11:51 AM (vk+Kb)

113 It's hard to overcome generations of oppression and islhamic barbarianism.

Posted by: Sponge at May 26, 2015 11:52 AM (mndtc)

114 So your left leg was protected, what about the rest of your body?

Posted by: Insomniac at May 26, 2015 11:50 AM (2Ojst)

I was thinking Johnson. But if you want to call it a leg.....

Posted by: wrg500 at May 26, 2015 11:52 AM (kQBSd)

115 88 In Germany and Japan we bombed the crap out of them and made it clear that opposing the us would get you killed. In Iraq weve just basically been handing out money...

Posted by: 18-1 at May 26, 2015 11:41 AM (78TbK)




And in the immediate aftermath of the war we (or more accurate, George Patton, IIRC) made short work of any "Werewolves" (Nazi bitter enders) we caught. They were tied to a lamp post, summarily shot, and left as an example to others. Poof! End of Werewolf problem.

Posted by: Jay Guevara at May 26, 2015 11:52 AM (oKE6c)

116
107 I still find it amusing that Saddam managed to hoodwink EVERY intel agency in the world about having WMD in dangerous quantity.I also think, under the bravado, he was totally serious about bigger and better.
Posted by: irongrampa at May 26, 2015 11:50 AM (jeCnD)


He probably told them all he had video of them molesting little kids. I figure that's what Scott Ritter was doing over there most of the time. I wonder if anyone ever asked John Stewart how he felt regularly having a pedophile on his program.

Posted by: buzzion at May 26, 2015 11:52 AM (zt+N6)

117 Mmmmmm. She's worn this!
Posted by: Bandersnatch at May 26, 2015 11:49 AM (JtwS4)



Lemon bar?

*proffers*

Posted by: alexthechick - Oh please intervene SMOD at May 26, 2015 11:53 AM (mf5HN)

118 Posted by: buzzion at May 26, 2015 11:44 AM (zt+N6)

With all due respect, an autonomous Kurdistan that was free to make international agreements in their own best interest would have had no problem keeping American troops, or getting supplies that the Maliki regime repeatedly denied them over the years.
In all probability, Kurdistan would have been a solid bulwark against an ISIS that wouldn't have risen if not for the vacuum of power that exists.

Posted by: OneEyedJack at May 26, 2015 11:53 AM (XmOA9)

119 "Iraq isn't a scared resident living in fear of the gang-bangers hanging
out on the corner. Again, it's a country with a large military that has
been lavishly equipped and trained by the United States of America. To
accept this argument you have to accept the notion that the US will be
responsible for Iraqi security forever. After all, police don't come in,
sweep the neighborhood of bad guys and then tell the previously scared
residents they are now in charge of keeping the area safe."

Drew, not to be contrary but how long has most of Europe been hiding behind America's nuclear skirt? 70 years and still going, last I checked.

Posted by: drdog09 at May 26, 2015 11:54 AM (ZVUS/)

120 I still find it amusing that Saddam managed to hoodwink EVERY intel agency in the world about having WMD in dangerous quantity.

I also think, under the bravado, he was totally serious about bigger and better.
Posted by: irongrampa at May 26, 2015 11:50 AM (jeCnD)

I don't think it was so much hoodwinked. Most people still don't understand the facts. His chemical and biological weapons, while mostly degraded could have been restarted and functional again in weeks if not months. Knowledge is not so easy to destroy. And the only reason his nuclear capability was degraded was because of Israel. ANd the wonderful international community was just about to lift all sanctions. He had WMDs before and used them and he was weeks away from having them again and he would have used them again

Posted by: Nevergiveup at May 26, 2015 11:54 AM (rDqRv)

121 Say what you want, but when President Bush left
Officer, Iraq was stable. A great place to vacation, yeah no. A model
for future conflicts. yeah no. A place to invest money, I don't think
so.


Posted by: Nevergiveup at May 26, 2015 11:50 AM (rDqRv)


You know a place with worse-rated bonds than Iraq? Here's a hint: swimming pools and movie stars.
Yep. Although I haven't checked recently, not long ago California's bonds were rated worse than Iraq's.

Posted by: Jay Guevara at May 26, 2015 11:54 AM (oKE6c)

122 Just a reminder that over 2000 tons of VX gas is still unaccounted for.

Posted by: Cruzinator at May 26, 2015 11:54 AM (8cSVB)

123 Speaking of North and South Korea. Truman bears some blame for all the atrocities and mass murders the Kim family was done in NK.
MacArthur may have been a nuke-happy egotist but he had the will to crush the Norks.

Posted by: @votermom at May 26, 2015 11:55 AM (K+N4k)

124 122 Just a reminder that over 2000 tons of VX gas is still unaccounted for.
Posted by: Cruzinator at May 26, 2015 11:54 AM (8cSVB)

It's very very horrible, sir. It's one of those things we wish we could uninvent.

Posted by: Stanley Goodspeed at May 26, 2015 11:55 AM (2Ojst)

125 Far too many Americans and Iraqis believed their true enemy was fellow countrymen which produced a lack of will, so now we find ourselves at this crossroad.

And if Sec. of Def. Carter is willing to make a truly hard call, he might want to stop delivery of the first of 36 brand new F-16s for the new Iraqi air force which are supposed to be delivered this July to that country..

Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at May 26, 2015 11:55 AM (V8fhv)

126 Sorry 200 tons.

Posted by: Cruzinator at May 26, 2015 11:55 AM (8cSVB)

127 *gnoms*

Posted by: Bandersnatch at May 26, 2015 11:56 AM (JtwS4)

128 And if Sec. of Def. Carter is willing to make a truly hard call, he might want to stop delivery of the first of 36 brand new F-16s for the new Iraqi air force which are supposed to be delivered this July to that country..
Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at May 26, 2015 11:55 AM (V8fhv)

They are not still going thru with that are they? I mean why not just give to Iran and be done with it

Posted by: Nevergiveup at May 26, 2015 11:56 AM (rDqRv)

129 But if America had stayed the course, we would not be where we are
today. And from day 1 everyone but the Israelis ( and even they were
warned off by the USA) fucked the Kurds in every way possible.

Posted by: Nevergiveup at May 26, 2015 11:50 AM (rDqRv)


Fully agree. How can you not feel sorry for the Kurds? They get hosed by EVERYBODY, all the time. For the offense of being an identifiable group that is consistently in the wrong place. They're the Middle Eastern equivalent of the Poles.

Posted by: Jay Guevara at May 26, 2015 11:57 AM (oKE6c)

130 And in the immediate aftermath of the war we (or
more accurate, George Patton, IIRC) made short work of any "Werewolves"
(Nazi bitter enders) we caught. They were tied to a lamp post, summarily
shot, and left as an example to others. Poof! End of Werewolf problem.


Posted by: Jay Guevara

Our enemy knows we no longer have that same culture or stomach.

After the fall of Saddam, there would have been only a whimper of an insurgency had "Patton's America" been there, but once they figured out the Western media would help them and we didn't even have the stomach to even pour water on people's faces to make them talk, they were emboldened.


Posted by: McAdams at May 26, 2015 11:57 AM (B0j+p)

131 By the way, why have they unleashed Moochele on the Graduates? Poor things.... That's cruel and unusual punishment...

Posted by: donna at May 26, 2015 11:57 AM (Bn6aD)

132 If Italy were to invade and conquer Libya, only the wrong people would get upset.

If the US were to invade Iraq again and wipe ISIS of the map, no one would weep but ISIS and leftists who want to destroy America and the west.

Putin would be miffed, but he hates Islam and wouldn't interfere.

These "countries" are up for grabs.

Posted by: Feh at May 26, 2015 11:57 AM (+xx19)

133 >>>>
Islamic preacher warns men masturbate hands will get PREGNANT look after hand offspring in afterlife


and you'll have a miscarriage if you get the clap

Posted by: Bigby's Pregnant Hands at May 26, 2015 11:57 AM (Cq0oW)

134 We DID put together a capable Iraqi military force in 2006-10 or so- more precisely, a professional military. Frankly, Drew, your last paragraph is muddled at best and disingenuous at worst. "Regardless of what happened in Iraq in 2011" - really? If you want to talk about the wisdom, or lack of it, in the 2003 invasion, by all means, let's go. But what does that have to do with the endless bungling of Bozo the President since 2009, and the way the situation in Iraq has deteriorated immensely under his administration? The Iraqi Army that fought well in Ramadi, among other places, in 2006-2010, they seemed to fight well enough. And it was hardly the case that Americans were running everything, because we weren't in that period. We primarily supplied intelligence and air support, but ground operations were run by the IA. You really don't seem to understand the critical role of leadership in warfighting, do you?

Posted by: radar at May 26, 2015 11:58 AM (kQfqk)

135 131 By the way, why have they unleashed Moochele on the Graduates? Poor things.... That's cruel and unusual punishment...

--

Oberlin deserves it for graduating Lena Dunham.

Posted by: @votermom at May 26, 2015 11:58 AM (la5++)

136 @122

May want to check the Bekaa Valley right next door.

Although by this time I'm thinking any chem weapons have degraded greatly.

Posted by: irongrampa at May 26, 2015 11:59 AM (jeCnD)

137 "Just a reminder that over 2000 tons of VX gas is still unaccounted for."

Link?

Posted by: Feh at May 26, 2015 11:59 AM (+xx19)

138 Oberlin deserves it for graduating Lena Dunham.



Yup...

Posted by: donna at May 26, 2015 11:59 AM (Bn6aD)

139 In all probability, Kurdistan would have been a solid bulwark against an ISIS that wouldn't have risen if not for the vacuum of power that exists.
Posted by: OneEyedJack


The bizarre thing is that as best I can tell the only reason the Kurds have not been given massive support is because of Turkey. The same NATO partner that screwed W many times. Now Barry manages to screw over our closest allies but draws the line at offending Turkey.

Posted by: Hopped Up On Something Why yes, I am bitter. at May 26, 2015 11:59 AM (NHtMs)

140 dailymail.co.uk
/news/article-3097092/
Islamic preacher warns men masturbate hands will get PREGNANT look after hand offspring in afterlife

So there's no rubbing one out in Islam? No wonder they're so restive.

Posted by: Insomniac at May 26, 2015 11:59 AM (2Ojst)

141 All well and good.




Now explain why it doesn't matter if ISIS controls Iraq's oil.

Posted by: typo dynamofo at May 26, 2015 11:59 AM (i7JE3)

142 I really hate the focus on "knowing what we know now, would you still have supported the invasion?" idiocy.

-
Knowing what we know now, would you let everybody sleep in on December 7, 1941? FDR did.

Posted by: The Great White Snark at May 26, 2015 12:00 PM (vk+Kb)

143
"There
are only two forces in the world, the sword and the spirit. In the long
run the sword will always be conquered by the spirit."
-- Napoleon

And if you don't have it the sword always wins regardless of the dialectic of forces.

Posted by: drdog09 at May 26, 2015 11:42 AM (ZVUS/)






In other, Horde-compliant words: The Riddle Of Steel.

Posted by: IllTemperedCur at May 26, 2015 12:00 PM (lpeQC)

144 90. Alexthechick,

With all due respect, are you insane?

As between incompetence OR lying by an intelligence agency, I much prefer incompetence. It's easier to fix.

Posted by: Lenny at May 26, 2015 12:00 PM (PQnna)

145 It's a bit more complicated than that. The Iraqi Army is mainly Shia. They will fight for Basra (and did, remember Al-Sadr?) , but they were eager to abandon Ramadi, which has always been a pretty nasty place for them.

The old Iraqi Army had a simple solution for these kinds of problems: several of the nine Iraqi secret police organizations were attached to the military and one of their jobs was to act as Third World NCOs to the Shia conscripts: they would shoot people in the head if they abandoned their posts or refused orders.

Absent a return to that paradigm, it's going to be hard to get many Shia invested in dying for Sunni cities that don't particularly want them around anyway. OTOH, ISIS can't sustain any kind of local economy or popular support for their fighters on the long run. The net result is that Sunni Arab Iraq will be a mess until there's some kind of stable government in Syria.

Posted by: TallDave at May 26, 2015 12:00 PM (74ZYB)

146 Just a reminder that over 2000 tons of VX gas is still unaccounted for.
Posted by: Cruzinator at May 26, 2015 11:54 AM (8cSVB)


Oh pish posh that's such a lie!

It's in Syria. And on the Syrians.

Posted by: alexthechick - Oh please intervene SMOD at May 26, 2015 12:00 PM (mf5HN)

147 Maybe this picture sums up the whole situation. Or maybe not.
http://tinyurl.com/mxtrdq9

Or is this the proper metaphor for how the US has treated Iraq and Afghanistan the past six years?
http://tinyurl.com/m96ulgm

And here is one just for AlextheChick
http://tinyurl.com/lp9ewk5

Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at May 26, 2015 12:01 PM (V8fhv)

148 @ 125

Anna, he might just as well cut out the middleman and give them to isis outright, they'll wind up there anyhow.

Posted by: irongrampa at May 26, 2015 12:01 PM (jeCnD)

149
"The bizarre thing is that as best I can tell the only reason the Kurds have not been given massive support is because of Turkey. The same NATO partner that screwed W many times. Now Barry manages to screw over our closest allies but draws the line at offending Turkey."




Not just the Turks - also his good friends in Tehran, who don't want any pesky Kurdish uprisings in Iran.

Posted by: radar at May 26, 2015 12:01 PM (kQfqk)

150 Posted by: Feh at May 26, 2015 11:59 AM (+xx19)

You can google up Hans Blix report to UN.

Posted by: Cruzinator at May 26, 2015 12:02 PM (8cSVB)

151 What we need is another draft. Pull in the hipsters and the street peeps and let them get to know one another in an existential hell and see how things go. I'd pay good money to see craft brewed cul de sacs and homies play with guns while surrounded by crazy hadjis. We might end up with a much better America.

Posted by: Super Creepy Eric Hoteham at May 26, 2015 12:02 PM (oDCMR)

152 They should have been able to defend an urban area with a 1-2 disadvantage. Boy Scouts would have put up a better deafness than the ISF.

Iraq now claims to have launched an offensive to retake the city and say they have it "surrounded on three sides" - aka "not surrounded".

Posted by: forest at May 26, 2015 12:02 PM (stMuz)

153 @123 - ...but it was his hand-picked staff that sent X Corps and the Eighth Army rolling up the valley roads to the Chinese border in almost complete ignorance of the conditions around them.

MacArthur screwed an entire litter of canines in Korea, simple as that.







Posted by: The Devoceleraptor at May 26, 2015 12:03 PM (o+SC1)

154 "Pregnant hands" is an opportunity to sell latex gloves to the muz.

Posted by: @votermom at May 26, 2015 12:03 PM (I/wph)

155 Not just the Turks - also his good friends in Tehran, who don't want any pesky Kurdish uprisings in Iran.
Posted by: radar at May 26, 2015 12:01 PM (kQfqk)

Fredo's bestest friends now int he MIddle East are Turkey and Iran.

Posted by: Nevergiveup at May 26, 2015 12:03 PM (rDqRv)

156 So the same people who outnumbered Saddam's guys 100-1 and would not stand up to his heavy hand are complacent in the face of the next thug.... and it is a wonder to some people?....Knicker please...

Posted by: Mr Wizard at May 26, 2015 12:03 PM (eOpVe)

157 Paladin, #39:

"The reason for my success is that I only fight Arab Armies."

Less of a slur than it seems at first glance. Ever read Norvell DeAtkine's "Why Arabs Lose Wars"? After his years as a FAO with one of the more effective Arab armies, he observed that a Sergeant First Class in the US Army has roughly the same decision-making authority as a colonel in the Egyptian Army.

Posted by: JPS at May 26, 2015 12:03 PM (0k/27)

158 n Germany and Japan we bombed the crap out of them and made it clear that opposing the us would get you killed. In Iraq weve just basically been handing out money...

-
Yeah, Dresden a few ISIS cities, occupy the country, and hang anybody clinging to their Koran, then we'll talk.

Posted by: The Great White Snark at May 26, 2015 12:04 PM (vk+Kb)

159 Ohhh thank you, AP.

With all due respect, are you insane?

As between incompetence OR lying by an intelligence agency, I much prefer incompetence. It's easier to fix.

Posted by: Lenny at May 26, 2015 12:00 PM (PQnna)


Wait, that insane question is rhetorical right? Right.

I would agree with you but in this case it was more or less every intelligence agency everywhere. Which means that either it was a structural problem, which is not easily changed, or everyone put the same spin on the same info, which rather defeats the purpose of having multiple opinions, or, you know, the definition of WMD was altered radically because that promotes the Narrative.

The reason why I believe incompetence is worse in this situation is because this was a situation where there was every possible incentive to get it right and that didn't (allegedly) occur. Venality is more easily protected against than sheer and utter collapse of the very notion of intelligence gathering.

Posted by: alexthechick - Oh please intervene SMOD at May 26, 2015 12:04 PM (mf5HN)

160 I really hate the focus on "knowing what we know now, would you still have supported the invasion?" idiocy.

-
Knowing what we know now, would you let everybody sleep in on December 7, 1941? FDR did.
Posted by: The Great White Snark
----------------

Knowing what you know now, would you have sailed on the Titanic?

Posted by: Mike Hammer, etc., etc. at May 26, 2015 12:04 PM (F2IAQ)

161 Saddam threw people off buidlings, killed their families and did other such things

So does ISIS

It is a proven winner in the Arab World.

Hum? Run or get head cut off: Feet do your job and get me out of here

It really ain't that complicated

Posted by: Nevergiveup at May 26, 2015 12:05 PM (rDqRv)

162 Posted by: Hopped Up On Something Why yes, I am bitter. at May 26, 2015 11:59 AM (NHtMs)

That has to explain at least some of it, maybe most of it. Turkey has a large Kurdish population on their southwestern border, and they are afraid of a Kurdistan that could cause an uprising in their territory.

Fuck em, they are useless or worse as an ally.
Deep down, they want to be the caliphate Capital again, they have no allegiance to western ideals.

If I, were king of the forrrrresssst, I'd cut them loose from NATO. Let the Russians have them too. Putin wont put up with Islamism either (unless he thinks he can harness it and direct it at the west)
And that is one of the problems with Turkey.

Posted by: OneEyedJack at May 26, 2015 12:05 PM (XmOA9)

163 3 Well Drew, it just proves that you can not install democracy (or a free country) from without. The people have to do it, and people who have a leaning toward 6th century savagery based on a phony religion have no desire for freedom.
And the other bad thing about this is that every time these clowns run away they drop all those US weapons. We are ISIS' largest weapon supplier.
Posted by: Vic We Have No Party at May 26, 2015 11:20 AM (GpgJl)

THIS! (x1000)

Posted by: 1bulwetweft at May 26, 2015 12:05 PM (nqiq9)

164 You can google up Hans Blix report to UN.

Posted by: Cruzinator


Damn you, Hans Brix!!!

Posted by: =B^( at May 26, 2015 12:05 PM (/Ho8c)

165 It's in Syria. And on the Syrians.

Posted by: alexthechick - Oh please intervene SMOD at May 26, 2015 12:00 PM (mf5HN)

Yep, according to my Syrian friend, there was a deal struck between Assad's sister (a truly ruthless bitch worst than her brother) and her husband (Chief of the secret police) to transport his stockpile to the Bakka valley for safe keeping.

Posted by: wrg500 at May 26, 2015 12:06 PM (kQBSd)

166 So there's no rubbing one out in Islam? No wonder they're so restive.

Posted by: Insomniac
--------------------------
That's what goats are for in their culture...

Posted by: drdog09 at May 26, 2015 12:06 PM (ZVUS/)

167 I thought Arabs were all fatalistic about death. Insha'Allah and all that. The Iraqis damn sure don't stand and fight.

Posted by: Grump928(c) at May 26, 2015 12:06 PM (evdj2)

168 Read the content ... skipped the posts.


I'll defer to anyone that's served over there - actually served in a combat zone. You know ... with bullets flying at them.


Short of that - this seems pretty simple to me. The "winner" over there will be the side that fights the dirtiest the longest. That side won't get our support.


So yeah ... in a fucked up way ... ISIS will win this shit because Americans won't tolerate watching on TV what it takes to win.


Which ties in quite well with the content ... because Americans won't tolerate seeing what it takes to get rid of gangs either. They'd rather live with the gangs.

Posted by: ScoggDog at May 26, 2015 12:07 PM (iUJ9v)

169 I call BS on blaming America... yet again.

Heck, the way the U.S. is right now, you have folks in your own country who wouldn't lift a finger to help if needed (*cough* leftists *cough*).

If I may quote Sir John Glubb:

"But this spirit of dedication was slowly eroded in the Age of Commerce by the action of money. People make money for themselves, not for their country. Thus periods of affluence gradually dissolved the spirit of service..."

The above is from "The Fate of Empires and Search for Survival"

http://people.uncw.edu/kozloffm/glubb.pdf

He posits that every civilization goes thru certain phases. The next few decades aren't going to be fun for a lot of us.

Posted by: Russtovich at May 26, 2015 12:07 PM (8zhoe)

170 The Iraqis who abandoned their posts were the bravest of all; they deserve a monument and a holiday.

Posted by: Some Idiot at Vox.Com at May 26, 2015 12:08 PM (O7MnT)

171
"Knowing what you know now......."

What a dumbfuck preface to a question.

Just ignorant stupid.

Posted by: irongrampa at May 26, 2015 12:08 PM (jeCnD)

172 I am not sure what either Max Boot or DrewM are even arguing here.

Of course we are to blame. If we invaded Iraq we should have staid until the country could defend itself. History has proven that takes A VERY LONG TIME. A national identity needs to be formed. People need to believe that they and their families are stake holders.

In hindsight, I think the Iraq invasion was clearly a mistake. We compounded it by abandoning it.

Posted by: Tommy V at May 26, 2015 12:08 PM (NBoRH)

173

On the blame Rumsfeld front, a gratuitous shot at the former Sec Def. But a great read nonetheless

Don't be an asshole... or maybe just a little

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/06/why-it-pays-to-be-a-jerk/392066/

Posted by: imp at May 26, 2015 12:09 PM (XIXZz)

174 Today's so-called "modern warfare" employs all of the factors required to achieve victory (and the peace that inevitably follows) save one: a will to win.

TFG's and the left's pathetic excuse for whatever it is that they do is in no way a "victory." It has all the trappings of a war, but the results are exactly what we see today, which is merely talking points to used against Repumpkins.

Effete weaklings in office are very dangerous, even moreso than "hawks." Instead of the quick, crushing defeat of an enemy followed by a long period of peace, they prefer only the conflict itself, for this provides them with more power.

Had we the attitude that we had nationally during WWII, we wouldn't be in the position we are today.

We'd be at peace and our enemies would face decades of rebuilding. We'd be left alone and we'd be feared, two worthwhile goals that we once held high, when men were in charge.

Posted by: BackwardsBoy, who did not vote for this sh1t at May 26, 2015 12:09 PM (0HooB)

175 Too many in the Iraqi military and police are probably Sunni and somewhat sympathetic to ISIS's goal of wiping out non-Sunnis.

Posted by: Old Hob at May 26, 2015 12:09 PM (Lp6I1)

176 For the LIVs: knowing what you know now, would you have voted for Obama?

Posted by: @votermom at May 26, 2015 12:09 PM (Hie/x)

177 One day, we are going to be real sorry we didn't stomp this "JV Team" when we had the chance.

Posted by: Gregory of Yardale at May 26, 2015 12:09 PM (O7MnT)

178 That's what goats are for in their culture...

Sadly, there aren't nearly enough to go around due to Anthropogenic Global Goat Population Change.

Posted by: Cicero (@cicero) at May 26, 2015 12:10 PM (8ZskC)

179 Was it over when ISIS took over Baghdad??

Posted by: Senator "Bluto" Blutarsky at May 26, 2015 12:10 PM (sCHw2)

180 Anna, he might just as well cut out the middleman and give them to isis outright, they'll wind up there anyhow.

Posted by: irongrampa at May 26, 2015 12:01 PM (jeCnD)




And then we can provide them with aid and economic advisers (e.g., Krugman) to give them tips, have our State Department run their foreign affairs, our DoJ administer justice, and Democrat politicians help them with running the place and BAM! Next thing you know, ISIS will collapse.

Posted by: Jay Guevara at May 26, 2015 12:10 PM (oKE6c)

181 "Knowing what you know now......."

What a dumbfuck preface to a question.
Just ignorant stupid.



Weapons Grade Stupid.

Posted by: rickb223 Straight, Conservative Clinger at May 26, 2015 12:10 PM (OmZNe)

182 "It is a proven winner in the Arab World."

Well, then stupid Arabs.

Might doesn't make right. It makes power, which changes.

You can't build a nation at all from a sequence of power grabs. What you get is a sequence of subjects, not a culture of citizens.

Posted by: Feh at May 26, 2015 12:11 PM (+xx19)

183 For the LIVs: knowing what you know now, would you have voted for Obama?

Laws, yes. M-O-O-N that spells Obama!

Posted by: Every LIV at May 26, 2015 12:11 PM (O7MnT)

184 >>Just a reminder that over 2000 tons of VX gas is still unaccounted for.



Is that even considered a 'chemical weapon'?

Posted by: Barack Hussein Obama at May 26, 2015 12:11 PM (Dd4gt)

185 Just ponder if this President had spoken up like Reagan about Iran's Green Revolution to support the reformers. How would the trajectory of events have been altered in the Middle East if the mad mullahs had at least been distracted for awhile?

Just like some wonder how China would have been if Truman had more actively supported the Nationalists against Mao's Communists. One of those tantalizing What-Ifs that will haunt people for a long time.

Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at May 26, 2015 12:11 PM (V8fhv)

186 Yeah yeah, Why Arabs Lose Wars, etc.....but the fact of the matter is that the IA actually did fight rather well from 2006-10. That's not a hypothetical, it really happened. Simply ascribing what has happened since to rather facile cultural assumptions is lazy analysis.

Posted by: radar at May 26, 2015 12:11 PM (kQfqk)

187 Was it over when ISIS took over Baghdad??

Pretty much.

Posted by: Grump928(c) at May 26, 2015 12:11 PM (evdj2)

188 Too many in the Iraqi military and police are probably Sunni and somewhat sympathetic to ISIS's goal of wiping out non-Sunnis.
Posted by: Old Hob at May 26, 2015 12:09 PM (Lp6I1)


yeah not so much anymore. Maliki and the guy who came after him, with Fredo's help, pretty much cleared out all the Sunnis and installed SHiites, which is why the Sunni fell in with ISIS, they had no choice

Posted by: Nevergiveup at May 26, 2015 12:12 PM (rDqRv)

189 @180 - I like that approach. Send them a couple hundred DOJ lawyers to start with.

Posted by: The Devoceleraptor at May 26, 2015 12:12 PM (o+SC1)

190 Was it over when ISIS took over Baghdad??

We'll see end of the year.

Posted by: wrg500 at May 26, 2015 12:13 PM (kQBSd)

191 This was won. Obama worked hard to lose it.



New doctrine, call it the Obama Doctrine;

If a president finds that he must fight a war, he MUST have a self imposed time line of full and complete victory before he turns the office over to the next clown.


Posted by: typo dynamofo at May 26, 2015 12:13 PM (i7JE3)

192 Knowing what you know now, would you have hired Brian Williams?

Posted by: Mike Hammer, etc., etc. at May 26, 2015 12:13 PM (F2IAQ)

193 what if you got jazz hands? do they get all limp-wristy in the afterlife?

Posted by: Bigby's Pregnant Hands at May 26, 2015 12:13 PM (Cq0oW)

194 "Americans won't tolerate seeing what it takes to get rid of gangs either"

Unfortunately, scogg, you're correct on this. Chicago for example should've declared martial law in several neighborhoods and gone in with the National Guard to clean them out.

But no, race hustling gets dem votes.

Posted by: Feh at May 26, 2015 12:13 PM (+xx19)

195 Anna!

hope you are still high & dry ...

Posted by: Adriane the Sense of Humor Critic ... at May 26, 2015 12:13 PM (nSOh+)

196 >>>176
For the LIVs: knowing what you know now, would you have voted for Obama?

Posted by: @votermom at May 26, 2015 12:09 PM (Hie/x)<<<

Hellz, ya!! What are you, some kinda Raycist or sumthin'? Did y'all see what Kimmy K was wearin', last nite on TMZ? All I can say is.......BOO-TAY.

Posted by: LIV Voter-slave at May 26, 2015 12:14 PM (sCHw2)

197 Number 24 . ARVN had a spotty record . The marines and airborne were quite good . Armor and Mech not bad . One the infantry (?) divisions put up a heroic fight against 3 to 1 odds in the final push for Saigon . One my patients told me at his 101st firebase the ARVN troops were chained to their guns . I would do the same for the Iraq army .

Posted by: Drpullit at May 26, 2015 12:14 PM (elpFR)

198 BackwardsBoy, that Empire thing is expensive.
But otherwise, spot on.
I would also posit that fixing what you broke isn't some ironclad contract. Some SOB's should live in what we leave behind as a lesson to others.

Posted by: OneEyedJack at May 26, 2015 12:14 PM (XmOA9)

199 Can you imagine anybody in the 70s or 80s -- journalist, voter, sentient being -- letting Nixon exonerate himself with a simple "knowing what I know now I would have done Watergate completely different" in the same way Hillary is being left off the hook for her position on the Iraq invasion?

Posted by: Lenny at May 26, 2015 12:14 PM (PQnna)

200 Obama ended Bush's wars.
Obama saved the economy and created eighty kerjillon jobs.
Obama got health care for 30 kerjillion people.
Obama got gay marriage.
Obama cut the deficit in half.

Posted by: Every LIV at May 26, 2015 12:14 PM (O7MnT)

201 Adriane, pretty dry and am still here. Guess I should predict weather. I was right, just after 0300L the wind kicked up briefly and the rain came for an hour or so.

How fare the Houstonians?

Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at May 26, 2015 12:15 PM (V8fhv)

202 The biggest and worst false assumption Bush, and all of us who supported that war, made, was to think that Arabs were capable of living and behaving like a civilized people. That the only problem was that they had a bad government.

The government is a reflection of the soul and the moral character of the people it rules. Always has been, always will be. And yeah, that applies to us as well.

No one can ever hope to rule an arab country unless they are totally corrupt and have no qualms about publicly executing 100 political opponents a week, like that new General in Egypt. That's all that they deserve.

Posted by: Tom Servo at May 26, 2015 12:15 PM (Kpl3J)

203 The biggest and worst false assumption Bush, and all of us who supported that war, made, was to think that Arabs were capable of living and behaving like a civilized people. That the only problem was that they had a bad government.

The government is a reflection of the soul and the moral character of the people it rules. Always has been, always will be. And yeah, that applies to us as well.

No one can ever hope to rule an arab country unless they are totally corrupt and have no qualms about publicly executing 100 political opponents a week, like that new General in Egypt. That's all that they deserve.

Posted by: Tom Servo at May 26, 2015 12:15 PM (Kpl3J)

204 @ 180

Much more truth than humor there.

You could call it a blueprint.

Posted by: irongrampa at May 26, 2015 12:15 PM (jeCnD)

205 don't forget Irak besides being islamic is also a tribal society

Posted by: Yo! at May 26, 2015 12:15 PM (W6iIX)

206 Which ties in quite well with the content ... because Americans won't tolerate seeing what it takes to get rid of gangs either. They'd rather live with the gangs.

When you're constantly told that if you meet violence with the greater violence that stops the original aggression that "your just getting down on their level," the psychos of the left have you right where they want you.

My question to them is, "Why do you wish to live in fear when you don't have to? If you defend yourself and eliminate the threat, you are not doing anything wrong. Yeah, you may even be more violent than your aggressors, but sometimes that's what it takes to live in peace.

You may be "getting down on their level," but you're not staying there."

Posted by: BackwardsBoy, who did not vote for this sh1t at May 26, 2015 12:16 PM (0HooB)

207 Comparisons with Germany and Japan are wrong-headed. Both were "civilized" countries who though they didn't exactly act civilized during the war, had a strong tradition of self-reliance buttressed by a good work ethic and the ability to work together when they had to. Both also had strong military traditions---something no Arab Muslim country has ( I deliberately left out out Muslim Turks and Persians). Germany was also a Western Christian country not very different from Britain or France--or the US, which had an overwhelming German population. They had to be defeated and disarmed, but once they were, those military and cultural impulses were applied to rebuilding and making trade.
The Arab Muslims have nothing like that to build upon. It was a mistake to try to nation-build, but at least Bush had a coherent--if wrong-headed policy. It's not his fault that Iraq is where it is today. This is Obama's baby.

Posted by: JoeF. at May 26, 2015 12:16 PM (lMUgT)

208 176
For the LIVs: knowing what you know now, would you have voted for Obama?

Posted by: @votermom
-------------------------------------

Sorry, that does not work on LIVs as they don't know a damn thing.

Posted by: drdog09 at May 26, 2015 12:17 PM (ZVUS/)

209 A nation without ice cream cones is a nation that has forgotten its heroic past.

Posted by: President Fredo at May 26, 2015 12:18 PM (FCsIb)

210 Just like some wonder how China would have been if Truman had more actively supported the Nationalists against Mao's Communists. One of those tantalizing What-Ifs that will haunt people for a long time.

Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at May 26, 2015 12:11 PM (V8fhv)




The problem there: our people in China were straight-up Red traitors. Google "Owen Lattimore." /spit Two others, whose names I don't now recall, defected to the Chicoms when they were found out.



But Joe McCarthy was WAY off base.

Posted by: Jay Guevara at May 26, 2015 12:18 PM (oKE6c)

211 The government is a reflection of the soul and the moral character of the people it rules. Always has been, always will be. And yeah, that applies to us as well.

Yeah verily ... the Chinese loved Genghis Khan.

Posted by: Adriane the Sense of Humor Critic ... at May 26, 2015 12:19 PM (nSOh+)

212 Mike Hammer, is this your cat?

http://www.ufunk.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/selection-du-weekend-141-15.jpg

Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at May 26, 2015 12:19 PM (V8fhv)

213 Ok. MIL ok

Posted by: Thunderb at May 26, 2015 12:19 PM (zOTsN)

214 I blame Lee Harvey Oswald

Posted by: Islamic Rage Boy at May 26, 2015 12:19 PM (MVVO/)

215

Adriane to the barrel.

Posted by: buzzion at May 26, 2015 12:19 PM (zt+N6)

216 Obama could solve the Middle East in a second if Republican Jew-lovers weren't obstructing him.

Posted by: Every LIV at May 26, 2015 12:19 PM (O7MnT)

217 oh boy

Posted by: Adriane the Sense of Humor Critic ... at May 26, 2015 12:19 PM (nSOh+)

218 I don't get the need to rehash this issue over and over while omitting certain key facts.

When Obama took over Iraq was relatively stable and working toward building a stable society. But it was never going to happen in a couple years, it was a long term process and pretending that we could just walk away was a fantasy.

Obama not only did not care about Iraq you could argue he had a vested interest in seeing it collapse. His entire campaign was built on proving that going into Iraq was a mistake and it would end badly. Well no shit, if you pull all the troops out before the country is ready to stand on its own and provide no support as terror groups grow and attack the country of course it's going to collapse. Just like Obama wanted.

Given what we knew at the time going into Iraq was the right thing to do. Our troops won the war. Obama gave it away. End of story.

Posted by: JackStraw at May 26, 2015 12:20 PM (g1DWB)

219 ISIS has had Raqaa for about a year, now...


we Nuke it.

Posted by: General Garrett at May 26, 2015 12:20 PM (Dd4gt)

220 Adriane to the barrel.

Autocucumber!!!!!!

Posted by: Adriane the Sense of Humor Critic ... at May 26, 2015 12:20 PM (nSOh+)

221 This entire debate ignores the problem of unemployment in jihadi territorial expansion.

Just sayin'!

Posted by: Marie "the Milkmaid" Harf at May 26, 2015 12:20 PM (FCsIb)

222 National Guard ?


Feh ... Americans can't stand the site of Americans on rooftops defending their homes and businesses. Americans find it MORE palatable when Uniformed Men are doing Dirty Work ... as long as the "Right" party is in charge.


This country will collectively puke before they idly watch people gain their independence ANYWHERE. The business is just too messy.

Posted by: ScoggDog at May 26, 2015 12:20 PM (iUJ9v)

223 *hands a NASA surplus spacesuit to Adriane*

Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at May 26, 2015 12:21 PM (V8fhv)

224 "A nation without ice cream cones is a nation that has forgotten its heroic past."

So the president likes ice cream. Big deal. But I weep for the country who thinks this is a big deal. Liberals, for thinking it's "cute" or our side for going on and on about it. Besides, you know he really wished he was licking a huge cock....

Posted by: JoeF. at May 26, 2015 12:21 PM (lMUgT)

225 Thunderb !!!!

Posted by: Adriane the Sense of Humor Critic ... at May 26, 2015 12:22 PM (nSOh+)

226 Autocucumber!!!!!!

Posted by: Adriane the Sense of Humor Critic ... at May 26, 2015 12:20 PM (nSOh+)

This NOT a sex thread!!!

Posted by: wrg500 at May 26, 2015 12:22 PM (kQBSd)

227 This has become a fundamentally immature, unserious country.

That a reporter asking a "knowing what we know now" question is not hooted out of a job is all the proof needed.

Posted by: Lenny at May 26, 2015 12:22 PM (PQnna)

228 When you're constantly told that if you meet violence with the greater
violence that stops the original aggression that "your just getting down
on their level, " the psychos of the left have you right where they want you.




Getting down on their level is EXACTLY what we have to do.



(Speaking of psychos of the left, yesterday a car raced down the on ramp of the freeway to the very end of the merge lane, then at the last second took a hard left into the crowded right hand lane to cut off everyone there, almost causing a multi-car wreck. The car was festooned with a dozen bumper stickers - so you know where this is going - including the obligatory "Coexist" one, but my favorite in the context was "Perform random acts of kindness.")

Posted by: Jay Guevara at May 26, 2015 12:23 PM (oKE6c)

229 War without glory is like ice cream without jimmies.

Posted by: President Funnyface at May 26, 2015 12:23 PM (ty633)

230 OK I'm gonna get in trouble but I can't listen to the "can't make a democracy" argument without pointing out the Japan, post WWII, was just as alien a culture and had even less experience with the trappings and idea of Democracy.

The difference is in the way they were handled. McArthur didn't let them just write whatever constitution the wanted. Their religious precepts regarding the Emperor were directly challenged. And after WWII any militant troublemaker could be summarily executed at the order of a Division commander. Of course the Japanese were nearly completely militarily and economically destroyed.



Posted by: typo dynamofo at May 26, 2015 12:23 PM (i7JE3)

231 But Joe McCarthy was WAY off base.


Posted by: Jay Guevara at May 26, 2015 12:18 PM (oKE6c)


Sometime just before the new century, NOVA on PBS had a retrospective of the men who were afraid of being blacklisted by the HUAC.

Turns out they had good reason, as they were admitting that they were subversive in a deliberate way, and that they may or may not be communists.

Like other public school victims, this came as a shock to me. Never saw it again, nor can I find it online anywhere.

Posted by: OneEyedJack at May 26, 2015 12:23 PM (XmOA9)

232 *hands a NASA surplus spacesuit to Adriane*

I have always depended on the kindness of strangers with NASA surplus ...

Posted by: Adriane the Sense of Humor Critic ... at May 26, 2015 12:23 PM (nSOh+)

233 Jay in that instance, karmic justice would have been if they had cut off a car full of Crips.

Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at May 26, 2015 12:24 PM (V8fhv)

234 Knowing what we know now, wouldn't many Texans and Oklahomans sought higher ground?

Posted by: Soona at May 26, 2015 12:24 PM (/HX7u)

235 Hmm. Shame none seem to have read Churchill's writings on the Levant and it's peoples.

Of course, that would require reading...

Posted by: anon a mouse at May 26, 2015 12:24 PM (C9pBZ)

236 224 But I weep for the country who thinks this is a big deal. Liberals, for thinking it's "cute" or our side for going on and on about it. Besides, you know he really wished he was licking a huge cock....
==============================


And, if ever anyone needed an example of lefty projection syndrome, I offer example "A".

Posted by: Psychiatrist to the Stars! at May 26, 2015 12:24 PM (FCsIb)

237 They don't have the will to fight because they have no leadership and motivation.

Training troops is continuous, never ending. It isn't something done just once.

Out of the military population, leaders have to rise to the top and be nurtured, grown, along the way. It isn't a short term effort.

How many decades of experience do our low level officers have? Why expect that Iraqi military leaders will perform like Napoleon with much much less experience?

War is a long term commitment, just as having a society is. You can't get around it.

No commitment, other than destruction, leads to Libya, a disaster far greater than Iraq to the non-Americans. Iraq is an example of why not to do something half assed. Germany, Korea, and Japan are all examples of the USA exercising control and long term commitment.

Posted by: wodun at May 26, 2015 12:25 PM (DD0s8)

238 This NOT a sex thread!!!
Posted by: wrg500 at May 26, 2015 12:22 PM (kQBSd)


170 more posts & all bets are off!!!!

Posted by: Adriane the Sense of Humor Critic ... at May 26, 2015 12:25 PM (nSOh+)

239 233 Jay in that instance, karmic justice would have been if they had cut off a car full of Crips.

Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at May 26, 2015 12:24 PM (V8fhv)




Yep. THAT one would definitely have lasted more than four hours.

Posted by: Jay Guevara at May 26, 2015 12:25 PM (oKE6c)

240 Thunderb ...


... any word on MIL ?

Posted by: ScoggDog at May 26, 2015 12:26 PM (iUJ9v)

241 231, Mc Carthy was right, but the Left focuses on his bluster in order to create a diversion from his main argument--"that commies infiltrated the government"--which was true.
It's worked for 60+ years....

Posted by: JoeF. at May 26, 2015 12:27 PM (lMUgT)

242 >>No commitment, other than destruction, leads to Libya, a disaster far greater than Iraq to the non-Americans. Iraq is an example of why not to do something half assed. Germany, Korea, and Japan are all examples of the USA exercising control and long term commitment.

I'm waiting on pins and needles for some intrepid reporter to ask Obama "Knowing what we know now do you think bombing the shit out of Libya and leaving it for terrorists to take over was a colossally boneheaded mistake?".

Posted by: JackStraw at May 26, 2015 12:27 PM (g1DWB)

243 233 Jay in that instance, karmic justice would have been if they had cut off a car full of Crips.

Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at May 26, 2015 12:24 PM (V8fhv)




It really was outrageous. She was driving a BMW (need I say more?), and necessitated a whole bunch of us laying rubber to avoid an accident. Hey, you stupid bitch, how about just fitting into traffic, without racing up to the end of the on ramp and then testing everyone's reflexes?

Posted by: Jay Guevara at May 26, 2015 12:27 PM (oKE6c)

244 Given what we knew at the time going into Iraq was the right thing to do. Our troops won the war. Obama gave it away. End of story.
Posted by: JackStraw at May 26, 2015 12:20 PM (g1DWB)


-------------------------------------------


Very much this. And it's sad Drew left out this part of the story.

Posted by: Soona at May 26, 2015 12:27 PM (/HX7u)

245 234
Knowing what we know now, wouldn't many Texans and Oklahomans sought higher ground?

Posted by: Soona
-------------------------------------

Pssst. Keep quiet! God is building us a moat so it makes it easier for us to secede.

Posted by: drdog09 at May 26, 2015 12:27 PM (ZVUS/)

246 This NOT a sex thread!!!

Posted by: wrg500 at May 26, 2015 12:22 PM (kQBSd)


http://tinyurl.com/kbw3jva
Or
http://tinyurl.com/lk27kny

Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at May 26, 2015 12:28 PM (V8fhv)

247 The Presidents foreign policy team has given ISIS room to destroy.

But that's not paternalistic! It's pragmatic.

Posted by: Stephanie Rawlings Blake at May 26, 2015 12:28 PM (FCsIb)

248 And add this into the equation.

Fredo is doing everything possible to appease the Iranians and always have.

His WHOLE foreign policy is to give Iran the bomb and everything he does can be explained by that.

Posted by: Nevergiveup at May 26, 2015 12:29 PM (rDqRv)

249 Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at May 26, 2015 12:28 PM (V8fhv)

No way I'm opening those links at work! lol

Posted by: wrg500 at May 26, 2015 12:29 PM (kQBSd)

250 "There are some groups willing to fight...the Iranian backed Shia militias. Unfortunately setting them loose in the Sunni regions creates as many, if not more, problems than it solves."

Let 'em go, baby! This is a new iteration of the Thirty Years War. It ends when the fathers and the sons are dead. I can hardly wait for ISIS to attack Iran. That will be a good one.

Posted by: Lance Culpepper at May 26, 2015 12:29 PM (U936r)

251 236--wrong.

Posted by: JoeF. at May 26, 2015 12:30 PM (lMUgT)

252
"Yes, yes, yes, a hundred times yes, but only if the "lengthy US
occupation and rebuilding effort" is a generational commitment. 25 years
at the minimum, more likely 50"

I agree. And we are not willing to do that because we don't even believe in the goodness of our own values. Instead, we sacrifice our best and brightest on the dopey altar of political correctness. Iraq at the time we won the war did not have the culture, or even remember the culture, that would have supported a representative government.

No, Grasshopper, all cultures are not equal.

Posted by: PJ at May 26, 2015 12:30 PM (cHuNI)

253 I hate to say anything positive about Obola but this was not intentional on his part and I'm scraping way down deep in the bottom of the barrel, but it may be a good thing that other countries are being forced to realize that Uncle Sugar isn't going to always be around to pull their chestnuts out of the fire for them.

Posted by: The Great White Snark at May 26, 2015 12:30 PM (XUKZU)

254 I ain't gonna worry 'bout no ISIS and besides Bush created it, or maybe the CIA so the military industrial complex can make money for Dick Cheney.

Posted by: Every LIV at May 26, 2015 12:30 PM (O7MnT)

255 With 27 shootings this past weekend I offer my criticism today of those protestors arguing I didn't do enough. They are blocking traffic!!

Posted by: Stephanie Rawlings Blake at May 26, 2015 12:31 PM (FCsIb)

256 Don't forget Khalilzad was one of the State Department tools who forced Sharia into the Iraqi constitution. Fuck 'em and the goat he fucked in on.

Posted by: Iblis at May 26, 2015 12:31 PM (9221z)

257 254 I ain't gonna worry 'bout no ISIS and besides Bush created it, or maybe the CIA so the military industrial complex can make money for Dick Cheney.


You're joking, but you pretty much nailed the current narrative...

Posted by: JoeF. at May 26, 2015 12:31 PM (lMUgT)

258 His WHOLE foreign policy is to give Iran the bomb and everything he does can be explained by that.

-
A few days ago I read that the state department is urging Israel to give up their nukes.

Posted by: The Great White Snark at May 26, 2015 12:32 PM (XUKZU)

259 Yep. Just posted above. Finally got through on phone. Still can't drive there but water didn't get in her building

Posted by: Thunderb at May 26, 2015 12:32 PM (zOTsN)

260 We're probably at the point were due to our election schedule where every four years we face a possible turn over of the Commander in Chief we will no longer be able to commit to any effort lasting more than three years.

That's something that we have advertised to our allies and to our enemies.

The result of that is that Terrorism wins because it doesn't have to answer to an electorate and it can maintain long term goals. Radical terrorists think in longer terms due to their ideology.

So the better question is -what is the Western world willing to defend?

Posted by: River Guide at May 26, 2015 12:32 PM (RJMhd)

261 "There are some groups willing to fight...the Iranian backed Shia militias. Unfortunately setting them loose in the Sunni regions creates as many, if not more, problems than it solves."

Iran is not that stupid. They want and already have tactical control of southern Iraq. They will settle for that for the time being. They don't want or need a religious War over the Anbar Provence. They might make a minor effort for show, but that is about it

Posted by: Nevergiveup at May 26, 2015 12:33 PM (rDqRv)

262 I hate to say anything positive about Obola but this was not intentional on his part and I'm scraping way down deep in the bottom of the barrel, but it may be a good thing that other countries are being forced to realize that Uncle Sugar isn't going to always be around to pull their chestnuts out of the fire for them.
Posted by: The Great White Snark at May 26, 2015 12:30 PM (XUKZU)


-------------------------------------------


I don't know about anyone else, but this comment makes me sad. Shows how far this country has flushed itself down the crapper.

Posted by: Soona at May 26, 2015 12:34 PM (/HX7u)

263 Glad to hear that, Thunderb.

Posted by: Count de Monet at May 26, 2015 12:34 PM (JO9+V)

264 A few days ago I read that the state department is urging Israel to give up their nukes.
Posted by: The Great White Snark at May 26, 2015 12:32 PM (XUKZU)


Yeah a progressive's wet dream. But even they couldn't pull that one off. The best thing saving Israel is the Arab States and their stupidity.

Posted by: Nevergiveup at May 26, 2015 12:34 PM (rDqRv)

265 We recruited and trained an Iraqi army with the chief requirement being that the soldiers recruited would not turn on our own troops. We declared that we would not recruit anyone who was already a fighter while simultaneously allowing militias to be armed. The best of the Kurdish and Shia men never went into the Iraqi army because they could not be trusted, and then we are shocked when this army performs in a discreditable manner.

We did this because we created a weak hut very large army that was entirely designed for COIN. Not an army that was supposed to fight a conventional war. And we are shocked.

Then we demand that the Iraqis fight IS with this crappy army without the militias, we demand that sectarian boundaries be observed, we want only the Sunni troops to be used in Sunni parts of the country and are amazed when early on they melt away when Sunni attack. Then we continue constantly worry that the Iraqis might send motivated troops, ie Shia, or Kurds, into Sunni areas, because our state department types are still trying to govern a countryvwe will never put conventional troops in again.

A bunch of political decisions the US has made from the very beginning lead to this. But it still might have worked if we had not let ISIS be born and metastatasize.

Posted by: RoyL at May 26, 2015 12:34 PM (wdHQo)

266 Corgis, a Whoopi of a neu thread.

Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at May 26, 2015 12:35 PM (V8fhv)

267 I'm the furthest thing from a military expert, although I've tried to read a The Art of War.
But I'm guessing the Iraqis are afraid to stand and fight because ISIS fights dirty. I doubt ISIS acknowledges the Geneva Convention.
Maybe that's how the sane part of the world should fight ISIS.

Posted by: Northernlurker at May 26, 2015 12:35 PM (tMrac)

268 nood

Posted by: Yo! at May 26, 2015 12:35 PM (W6iIX)

269 event b does not happen because it is caused by a previous event a. Instead, event a is simply the occasion for God to cause event b, so that the genuine cause of all events occurring on our ontological plane of existence is nothing else but God.

I hate to burst this guy's bubble, but a lot of people think this way, including many cultural Catholics.

When I was a Missionary in Montreal, one of the phrases I hated most was "si Dios quiere". It means "if God wants" or if God wills it.

So you're talking to someone, the conversation is going well, they are interested and responsive. Then you invite them to do something like come to Church. Their eyes glaze over and here comes the phrase, "si Dios quiere". Basically what they're saying is "absolutely not, but if God wills it, I can't stop His will, so you'll see me there if it's God's will."

Posted by: bonhomme at May 26, 2015 12:35 PM (jhqr1)

270 Thunderb at May 26, 2015 12:32 PM (zOTsN)

Good news...

Posted by: Adriane the Sense of Humor Critic ... at May 26, 2015 12:36 PM (nSOh+)

271 As a Canadian I say WTF is with US not sending in A10's to slaughter those goat fouckers as they parade down open desert roads waving those foucking black flags. As a Canadian wish we had them in our bag of tricks and am sure our PMSH would send them in as they seem to be the obvious weapon of choice for an assignment like that.

Posted by: bverwey at May 26, 2015 12:36 PM (HhGjs)

272 Shark ... You have a point.


I remember the fall of the USSR. The world could not fucking wait to be rid of both SuperPowers. They were all so unfairly caught in the middle of the game.


And you know what ... On one level, I really don't mind all this shit spinning out of control. Of course, I'm a bastard. Some times, I just stop talking .. Let my kids hurt themselves, and open another beer.

Posted by: ScoggDog at May 26, 2015 12:37 PM (iUJ9v)

273 260 We're probably at the point were due to our election schedule where every four years we face a possible turn over of the Commander in Chief we will no longer be able to commit to any effort lasting more than three years.


Posted by: River Guide at May 26, 2015 12:32 PM (RJMhd)



It's worse than that: make it "two years." The election of an obstreperous Congress is enough to gut any commitment. See, e.g., South Vietnam circa 1975.

Posted by: Jay Guevara at May 26, 2015 12:38 PM (oKE6c)

274 "So is the argument that we should have stayed longer to make sure our guy did our bidding?"

Yes.

"I thought one of the goals of the Operation Iraqi Freedom was to ensure the Iraqis themselves ran their country."

It was.

"Well, Malaki won several terms following elections. Now it turns out our goal was to serve as puppet masters?"

If the Iraqis pick just another dictator, then yes.

There is no moving the goalposts here, just dealing with reality.

After WWII we established a government in West Germany.
If Schumacher had won, reunited Germany, and declared neutrality, should we have just called it a day and gone home? (Never mind would the French and Soviets have accepted it.
If Adenauer had forced the border issue should we have just shrugged and ordered NATO to war? (Never mind would the French and Soviets have accepted it.)
Instead Adenauer had to behave, Germany rebuilt, the French joined the proto-EU, and we settled in for forty years of the Cold War.

Nation building is more than just organizing an election and calling it a day. You have to take the time to develop a national identity, promote democratic institutions, eliminate previous anti-democratic attitudes, and reserve veto power over the government and writing of the Constitution until the locals can handle it themselves.

Or you can install a new dictator and call it a day. We certainly did it with Marcos in the Phillippines, Duvalier in Haiti, and more. Of course you have to deal with the fallout from installing a dictator, particularly when it comes time to transfer power, but hey, kicking it down the road is a tradition.

Or you can just declare victory then cut and run. But don't try and move the goalposts and complain that the nation you didn't build collapses like a wet noodle when someone else shows up to install a dictator in the power vacuum you left behind.

How much wealth and lives are you willing to pay to build a nation?
How much integrity are you willing to pay to install a dictator?
How much power and standing are you willing to waste by turning it into an international hit job then complaining about the aftermath?
Choose one and own it, or default to the last and be laughed at even more.

Posted by: Sam at May 26, 2015 12:39 PM (mkv9z)

275 Damn it.

At the point *where*

Commenting with a phone is suboptimal.

Posted by: River Guide at May 26, 2015 12:39 PM (RJMhd)

276 So the better question is -what is the Western world willing to defend?



Kim & Kanye?

Posted by: rickb223 Straight, Conservative Clinger at May 26, 2015 12:40 PM (t4NMo)

277 Jay

Correct. I was being too optimistic with that three year estimate.

Posted by: River Guide at May 26, 2015 12:42 PM (RJMhd)

278 "Americans won't tolerate seeing what it takes to get rid of gangs either"

I was browsing the Kindle bookstore yesterday and came across a provocative book by a black guy who grew up in the ghetto entitled The Uncivil War by Taleeb Starkes. (I can't quote the subtitle without a banning.) Boy, talk about pulling no punches. That guy must have balls the size of basketballs.

Posted by: The Great White Snark at May 26, 2015 12:43 PM (XUKZU)

279 radar, #186:

Thank you for bringing me up short. I was reminded of that essay by the statement attributed to the Israeli general: It sounds like an ethnic slur but it isn't. I did not mean to ascribe the Iraqi Army's recent poor performance to that factor.

In 2009 I was part of a unit with orders to Iraq. We were in contact with the unit we were to relieve, and by summer the word was, they never went outside the wire anymore. The Iraqi Army was in the lead, they were to help if needed, but by that point they were hardly ever needed.

In the end our orders were cancelled, to my knowledge no American forces relieved that unit, and we went to Afghanistan instead.

So while I have no direct experience with the Iraqi Army, I have reason to believe you that they were doing rather well for awhile.

Posted by: JPS at May 26, 2015 12:44 PM (0k/27)

280 This NOT a sex thread!!!

--

Objection! Tuesday Override in Progress.

Posted by: @votermom at May 26, 2015 12:44 PM (gTvCM)

281 Rickb223

Jezzuz Kim Kardashian would probably accidentally selfie herself while she was being.... It would go to her iCloud and on to her Twitter then the Daily Mail would post it all in two minutes before some Brit would notice-

"By jove I think they behea....."

Posted by: River Guide at May 26, 2015 12:46 PM (RJMhd)

282 We have 50,000 troops in South Korea. We have been there 70 years. Isn't it time for South Korea to stand on its own two feet?

None of this ISIS nightmare in Iraq would be happening if not for our precipitous withdrawal. The introduction of democracy to Iraq and the greater Arab world was never a 10- or even a 20-year project, and it is foolish to think otherwise. The Bush administration probably should have been more upfront about this point.

Posted by: I Work for Dick Jones at May 26, 2015 12:51 PM (qAApM)

283
He was the man the Bush administration picked for the job.

And he should have been encouraged to either change his policy or step down when he decided that selling military commissions was a good idea.

Should have insisted, in fact.

What we're seeing is what happens when those holding such billets haven't gone thru the training process, or the vetting/promotion process, to reach the office they hold. So when the fan hits the shit, it will be difficult if not impossible for the NCOs to keep their troops together when they see their officers cutting and running.

Even if those NCOs and the rank and file are properly trained and equipped.

Posted by: I R A Darth Aggie at May 26, 2015 12:52 PM (1hM1d)

284 Posted by: Sam at May 26, 2015 12:39 PM

Well put.

Posted by: dick cheese at May 26, 2015 12:52 PM (rwI+c)

285 Less of a slur than it seems at first glance. Ever read Norvell DeAtkine's "Why Arabs Lose Wars"? After his years as a FAO with one of the more effective Arab armies, he observed that a Sergeant First Class in the US Army has roughly the same decision-making authority as a colonel in the Egyptian Army.

That's because Arab military structures are modeled along the old Soviet model, where everything is top-down to a fault and nobody can do nothing without proper authorization.

Posted by: OregonMuse at May 26, 2015 12:58 PM (I8YZX)

286 nood.

Posted by: rickb223 Straight, Conservative Clinger at May 26, 2015 12:58 PM (t4NMo)

287 They won't fight be cause they are all mohamadans. Deep down, they believe the koran and desire the caliphate rule over all infidels. That's your answer. You're welcome.

Posted by: Eromero at May 26, 2015 01:00 PM (go5uR)

288 Well ... "W" wasn't going to sell that "twenty year occupation" part because "W" REALLY REALLY wanted to go.


So ... He settled for a resolution that gave him more than granted under the War Powers Act ... but less than a Declaration of War ... and the rest is history.


Literally every Lever of Government pulled by Barack was either created, expanded, or justified by "W".

Posted by: ScoggDog at May 26, 2015 01:04 PM (iUJ9v)

289 The new thread is just more fake rape.

There are just so many great comment in this thread.

I would just like to add a point about the media, the media does not like air campaigns because of civilian casualties, they demand boots on the grand then they do not like that. Finally they help the terrorists when they act as their propaganda machine, a Jordanian pilot is set on fire, ISIS is truly brutal we cannot ignore the very real effect that has on the will to fight in that immediate vicinity.

Death by media for America perhaps.
And now the terrorists can just promote themselves on Twitter.

Posted by: River Guide at May 26, 2015 01:11 PM (RJMhd)

290 Edit: they demand boots on the *ground*

Posted by: River Guide at May 26, 2015 01:13 PM (RJMhd)

291 Freedom cannot be delivered to a country, all giftwrapped like a Christmas present.

The yearning to be free has to come up from the people, not down from above.

I also supported the invasion/deposing of the dictator in Iraq. Something like an islamic version of Israel could take its place, and be a place of peace in the Mideast.

Looking around the world tho, it's clear that that belief system does NOT want or appreciate freedom. Freedom is something they use to their advantage until they've forced everyone who is left to submit.

Posted by: Boots but not Max at May 26, 2015 01:15 PM (EBwPV)

292 Iraqis were surrender monkeys in 1991.

They were surrender monkeys in 2003.

They are surrender monkeys today.

Posted by: Adirondack Patriot at May 26, 2015 01:17 PM (iAUf+)

293
The Kurds are willing to fight and to fight hard.
It's time for the US to recognize Kurdistan as a soverign nation.

Posted by: Max Entropy at May 26, 2015 01:27 PM (cgtTL)

294 Well in 1991 that war went on for seven years and they lost something like 500,000.


A potentially dangerous mistake is that ISIS is being underestimated.

They used a sandstorm as cover, they set off thirty car bombs and they sent in troops dressed as Ramadi cops and got amongst that force during the chaos and then proceeded to machine gun them down.

Now the media will wring their hands about refugees not being allowed into Baghdad without telling their audience that ISIS is sneaking into protected cities with the refugees.

Posted by: River Guide at May 26, 2015 01:30 PM (RJMhd)

295 Okay time to get the coffee.


I was talking about the Iran Iraq war that ended in 1988.

Posted by: River Guide at May 26, 2015 01:36 PM (RJMhd)

296 Has anyone posted, "Top. Men" yet?

"Best and brightest?"

I still like William F, Buckley's idea to get the first 300 names in the Boston phone book and replace the upper echelon of the Executive branch with them.

Hey Biden bunch: just stay at the dinner party and give the rest of us a break. And let Bill stay offshore if he likes it so much.

Thanks, Ace.

Posted by: DM at May 26, 2015 02:05 PM (j/tOh)

297 I lived in the area for some time. I found the Iraqis to be industrious folks and the country rather secular. There is a huge-repeat huge vacuum of leadership! Period. Obama was so anxious to pull out he left the vacuum.

Posted by: AnnaS at May 26, 2015 02:07 PM (bVtr0)

298 Holy Crap.
Dave and a couple others shacked it. America caused this.
Specifically, American Democrats.
Consider:
1. It takes about 10 years to make a good middle management soldier, either at the tactical level (enlisted) or strategic (officer). I made E-6 in about 7 years, (about half the average for the USAF) and after my commission, about 8 to O-4. Realize that at no point did I say, And then I ran the Air Force. How long were we there?
2. Iraq was dysfunctional. Deeply, deeply distrustful, and fractured into factions; dictators do that by design. You can't imagine what that does to people. You just cant. If they weren't completely dysfunctional, we wouldn't have had such rapid success. So thank goodness for that. But that extends the time required to fix. You all brought up Germany. A more useful comparison is the two defeated Germanies. What was the difference between WW1 Germany and WW2 Germany? We stayed. And guided a thoroughly beaten Germany to where they are now.
3. When war comes, the victor gets to decide the terms. I criticize Bush for being too easy, too accommodating in order to (in my opinion) placate the left, and some world opinion. So, if Malaki doesn't do things the way we need them to happen? Take a long walk with him, explain that Siberia is nice this time of year; wouldn't you like to visit? No? Then do things our way, scumbag.
4. To those of you calling the Iraqis cowards. I'll defer to your combat experience. I'd like to introduce you to the Taji 11. The second group of cadets that we recruited. 11 young men who were being hunted for the audacity of joining the nascent Iraqi Air Force; they had to figure out how to join without being spotted, or they would be killed. Right after they graduated from IMAR, the US Army conducted a joint op to hunt down their commandant, whom I sat in a meeting with, heavily armed, as we discussed the cadets progress. Turns out this guy was as dirty as they come. Was involved in the disappearance of the previous commander, and possibly some cadets.
They learned English (at the IQAF's insistence); they did it with one of the headsets off, as they had to listen for incoming rounds, mortar and rockets; at IMAR, snipers joined the party. All eleven of them passed their ALCPT tests with at least a 70. They then went to Taji to attend our OTS, taught by as many good Iraqi instructors as possible. There weren't very many but when the Iranians have put bounties on the heads of any Iraqi Air Force member, PLUS the various terrorist factions, I guess the selection process has to be a bit selective. While there, corrupt Iraqi leadership stole from them, someone poisoned their food, and they got boils from ill treated water. Plus they didn't get paid for two months.
Then, four of them qualified, both physically, and in English language to attend the first class of pilot training. They flew sorties in body armor, in Cessna 172s that they had paid for.
I know that pales in comparison to rushing a frat plus totally studying for your finals.
Sometimes its just easier to call people cowards.
And my good friend, the Iraqi General who risked his life many times, for me? The one who flew over a hundred missions against the Iranians? The one who had friends that were killed in the course of combat with us? The one that referred to us as the friendly side? He says screw you too.
Or he would have. He was killed by an IED after I left. Because he believed in what we were trying to do. And risked his life over and over to affect it. Until they finally caught up to him.
Coward.
George Bush brought hope and change to Iraq.
American Democrats brought ISIS and death.


Posted by: mikeB at May 26, 2015 02:21 PM (UBeOl)

299 What am I fighting for? Who am I fighting against? Who will fight with me?


Posted by: Big Ben at May 26, 2015 02:26 PM (xL+qz)

300 After the Soviets left Afghanistan, we said "Leave 'em alone!! Let them run their own affairs!!", then watched the Taliban take over. Naturally, this was all Reagan's fault.

After the "evil", "baby-killing" US military beat the shit out of Saddam Hussein and Shiite and Kurdish revolts started happening, we said "Leave 'em alone!! Let them
run their own affairs!!", then watched Saddam Hussein crush the rebellions and stay in power. Of course, this was all GH Bush's fault.

After the Taliban allowed al-Qaeda to stay in Afghanistan and the "evil", "baby-killing" US military beat the shit out of the Taliban and al-Qaeda, we said "We HAVE to stay!! They can't
run their own affairs!!", then hooted and hollered as the casualties mounted. Naturally,
this was all BOOOOOOOSH's fault.

So, of course when Saddam looked like he might be putting the WMD Band back together and the "evil" BOOOOOOOOSH went into to stop him (with both UN and our congressional approvals over several years), the
"evil", "baby-killing" US military was sent in to beat the shit out of him AGAIN, so we said "We HAVE to stay!! They can't
run their own affairs!!", then hooted and hollered as the casualties
mounted. Who's fault was that? BOOOOOOOSH, of course!

So, the question is: WHY CAN'T YOU RETHUGLICANS JUST FIGURE OUT WHAT WE WANT??!? WHY CAN'T YOU RETHUGLICANS JUST FIGURE OUT IT'S NEVER OUR FAULT WHEN THINGS GO SIDEWAYS WHEN YOU DO WHAT WE WANT???

Posted by: The Democrats at May 26, 2015 02:32 PM (sCHw2)

301 >>>> mikeB at May 26, 2015 02:21 PM (UBeOl) <<<<<

THIS.

Posted by: Mickey Shwarma at May 26, 2015 02:33 PM (sCHw2)

302 The "knowing what you know now" Iraq war question is disingenuous at best.

It's like asking a losing quarterback after a game: "Knowing what you know now, would you have still thrown that interception?"

Posted by: PiltdownDude at May 26, 2015 02:48 PM (bME5a)

303 I sure as hell wouldn't fight and die to save Detroit or Chicago or even Washington D.C..

Savannah maybe. Fargo definitely.

Posted by: anchovy at May 26, 2015 03:11 PM (9HZoR)

304 "3
Well Drew, it just proves that you can not install democracy (or a free
country) from without. The people have to do it, and people who have a
leaning toward 6th century savagery based on a phony religion have no
desire for freedom.


And the other bad thing about this is
that every time these clowns run away they drop all those US weapons. We
are ISIS' largest weapon supplier.


Posted by: Vic We Have No Party at May 26, 2015 11:20 AM (GpgJl)"

We did install democracy from without in Germany, Japan and Korea. In all three places we kept tens of thousands of American troops in their country for decades. In Korea in particular it took about thirty years before the form of democracy was replaced by the actual substance of democracy.

Nouri al Maliki is a hyperpartisan Shiite but he did go along with the program as long as American troops were in Iraq. As soon as President Supergenius abandoned Iraq, Maliki changed the Iraqi army from an American trained army into just another Arab army overnight.


The American trained army that was in Iraq when Obama took office could have defeated ISIS in Ramadi. The Arab army that they have now did what Arab armies always do when they face a competent and determined enemy. They ran away.

And, just to be complete, yes. If we knew in 2003 what we know now, that the United States would elect an America hating narcissist as President who would piss away the military victory in Iraq then it would be wrong to send American soldiers off to have their lives wasted.

Posted by: Obnoxious A-Hole at May 26, 2015 03:17 PM (QHgTq)

305 Read some of the comments and do not have the time to read all 302. However, look at history. It has always been English speaking countries that have had the people willing to die for freedom. Britain, Australia, Canada, US, New Zealand and India fought World War II. Some were not even threatened. The concepts or Freedom, Liberty and property rights can be traced to England and are closely tied to the Protestant Religion. I think it is more than coincidence that the Left which hates religion support Islam and is against Christianity.

Posted by: Rich at May 26, 2015 03:22 PM (BcWH9)

306 "285
Less of a slur than it seems at first glance. Ever read Norvell
DeAtkine's "Why Arabs Lose Wars"? After his years as a FAO with one of
the more effective Arab armies, he observed that a Sergeant First Class
in the US Army has roughly the same decision-making authority as a
colonel in the Egyptian Army.

That's because Arab military
structures are modeled along the old Soviet model, where everything is
top-down to a fault and nobody can do nothing without proper
authorization.


Posted by: OregonMuse at May 26, 2015 12:58 PM (I8YZX)"

The reason that Arabs chose the Soviet model is because their societies are the same kind of top down, low trust societies where initiative is punished and connections and cronies are the be all and end all.

Posted by: Obnoxious A-Hole at May 26, 2015 03:28 PM (QHgTq)

307 "271
As a Canadian I say WTF is with US not sending in A10's to slaughter
those goat fouckers as they parade down open desert roads waving those
foucking black flags. As a Canadian wish we had them in our bag of
tricks and am sure our PMSH would send them in as they seem to be the
obvious weapon of choice for an assignment like that.


Posted by: bverwey at May 26, 2015 12:36 PM (HhGjs)"

The US Air Force is getting rid of the A-10. The Canadian government could probably get a pretty good deal if they wanted to buy them all.

Posted by: Obnoxious A-Hole at May 26, 2015 03:39 PM (QHgTq)

308 "The reason that Arabs chose the Soviet model is because their societies
are the same kind of top down, low trust societies where initiative is
punished and connections and cronies are the be all and end all."
----------------------
Depends what time period you pick. PreSoviet Russian armies were mustered not much different than US armies were during the civil war and early WWI days. Whole towns male populations formed up and marched off to combat. Being armed, gun and knife was a badge of honor. After the Soviets arrived it changed. No longer could the commies depend on honor and social order be used to maintain force cohesiveness. So they resorted to the mechanistic style for the `New Soviet Man` -- canon fodder for the State.

Posted by: drdog09 at May 26, 2015 03:58 PM (ZVUS/)

309 77
They were already "built" and both had strong moral fiber and a willingness to pull themselves up. IOW they were not 6th century savages.
Posted by: Vic We Have No Party at May 26, 2015 11:37 AM (GpgJl)


Yes. Which is why we must remain there even after seventy years. Iraq, after five, declare Fail and go home.

Well, that and federal junkets of whichever department's dime aren't as fun to the ME as they are to central Europe and eastern Asia.

BTW, the Japanese were 14th century medieval savages as late as ninety years prior to surrendering in The Big Two. Some would argue the Germans still are. Ever seen any krautporn?

Posted by: BuddyPC at May 26, 2015 05:39 PM (jfUIE)

310 49 41 And Wilson ran on "He Kept Us Out of War"



Posted by: Bertram Cabot Jr. at May 26, 2015 11:29 AM (W5DcG)

At least he had a valid excuse.
Posted by: Vic We Have No Party at May 26, 2015 11:30 AM (GpgJl)


Wait. Are you implying that Wilson was justified in his fierce moral urgency of overthrowing the Hohenzollerns, but Bush was stupidly wrong to insist on deposing Saddam and his genocidal sons?

Posted by: BuddyPC at May 26, 2015 05:44 PM (jfUIE)

311 Excellent blog post DrewM!

We need the next Republican president (if we ever get one again) to think outside of the box in fighting ISIS, and not simply retry the Bush plan of freeing Arab Muslims allowing them to do what they really want to do.

Which is Jihadi Thunderdome!




Posted by: William Eaton at May 26, 2015 07:04 PM (q52Ma)

312 Rule 1: Before invading an Islamic country read the Quran and Hadith so you can understand what a hokey ass religion it is.

Rule 2 : See Rule 1 above.

If only our politicians and "thought leaders" would follow these simple rules we would never attempt to rebuild another Muslim country again.



Posted by: William Eaton at May 26, 2015 07:10 PM (q52Ma)

313 Until the west learns to tolerate masses of dead civilians again we will never win another war. We have forgotten where soldiers come from. A daddy soldier does a mommy and a little bitty baby soldier is born. Then he works for a while growing food for the bigger soldiers, and mom works in the munitions plants, and everyone supports the politicians waging the war. Germany and Japan didn't become democracies because we occupied them, or they loved us. They were scared to death we'd kill em. Dresden and Nagasaki and a bunch of other croaked civilians is what won those wars and made the population grovel in fear of us. Since WWII no one has had to grovel. We lost our will to do what it takes to win. Because it is horrible. War is hell.
Ristrictive Rules of engagement, minimizing instead of maximizing dead civilians who no matter their ignorant peasant stupidity do indeed politically support their rulers over the invaders, just makes you look good to the leftist press and weak to your opponents. I believe the posters who knew a few good and brave Iraqis....I also know that until your enemy is starving, living in the streets because you bombed their cities, throwing its women at you in trade for a chocolate bar, and begging for you to accept its total abject surrender you didn't "win" anything.
Isis is winning because they are willing to commit the atrocity that is war. Next time they have a parade we need a strafing run with those cluster bombs that churn the soil 30 feet deep, but we won't because there might be a picture of some dead woman. You can bet their plans for us include lots of dead civilians.

Posted by: Old Guy at May 26, 2015 10:52 PM (lVMyE)

314 The Kurds seem to be doing a fairly good job holding onto their territory, though. Too bad President Doofenshmurtz doesn't want to help them, either.

Posted by: hurricane567 at May 27, 2015 01:05 AM (QjQ7X)

315 Drew, you miss an important point: in a world where asses are kicked and names taken, it is better to be a kicker. Much better.

Posted by: PersonFromPorlock at May 27, 2015 09:29 PM (U4QC6)

316 Is "Vic we have no Party" a Wilson supporter?

Posted by: AnnaS at June 08, 2015 09:32 AM (P+I7L)

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