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What Does It Mean To Be An American? [Y-not]
I have been thinking about this a lot lately as the effects of Obama's "fundamental transformation" manifest themselves. Today seems like an appropriate day to ask you what you think is the most American value.
For me it is exemplified in the following:I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character.
- From Martin Luther King's "I have a dream" speech, August 28, 1963 This is the most fundamental of American values: that each of us is created equal and that, through hard work and determination, we can rise above the circumstances of our birth. America is - or should be - a meritocracy, not an oligarchy. I think that's why so many of us chafe at the "ruling classes" in our government, media, business, and other segments of society. And it is, of course, why most of us rebel against the trend to "protected classes" who are demanding, not "protection" from discrimination, but special treatment.What value do you think of as distinctly American?
Comments
(Jump to bottom of comments)1
That link goes to a site called American Rhetoric, that (purports) to have Top 100 American Speeches.
Posted by: Y-not at May 25, 2015 10:25 AM (RWGcK)
2
Self government is hard. A good king is easier, but impossible to find, so people settle for a bad one.
Posted by: Grump928(c) at May 25, 2015 10:25 AM (evdj2)
3
Willowed, but it matters to me.
Denis Miranda.
06Dec85-21Sep10.
Warrior, SEAL, friend.
It's always sobering to remember who paid for my day off.
Denis Miranda.
06Dec85-21Sep10.
Warrior, SEAL, friend.
It's always sobering to remember who paid for my day off.
Posted by: Washington Nearsider, Keeper of the Guards, returned from 1080 exile at May 25, 2015 10:26 AM (cv6Ng)
4
Everything meaningful to me about America seems to be in the past tense. I weep for my poor, lost country. And the silly voters don't seem to really understand what they're getting, what they've agree to.
Its sad, but there it is.
Everything meaningful to me about America seems to be in the past tense. I weep for my poor, lost country. And the silly voters don't seem to really understand what they're getting, what they've agree to.
Its sad, but there it is.
Posted by: Lily at May 25, 2015 10:28 AM (eBvf6)
5
To love your country, it should be lovely. Ours is becoming rather unlovely. Even charity has lost it's attraction when the beggars do become choosers, demanding rather than needy. We are endlessly sacrificing the normal and virtuous to the fringe and unworthy. The center cannot hold.
Posted by: Grump928(c) at May 25, 2015 10:30 AM (evdj2)
6
"We choose to go to the moon. We choose to go to the moon in this decade and do the other things, not because they are easy, but because they are hard, "
http://er.jsc.nasa.gov/seh/ricetalk.htm
http://er.jsc.nasa.gov/seh/ricetalk.htm
Posted by: Pipi Gormanski at May 25, 2015 10:30 AM (JAI9l)
7
What value do you think of as distinctly American?
The idea of self governance and citizen legislatures -- which our country was founded on.
Everywhere else in the world has monarchs, tyrants, dictators, etc, and the people think that's the "way it is". America showed that it didn't have to be that way.
Unfortunately, Americans seem to have forgotten that lesson.
The idea of self governance and citizen legislatures -- which our country was founded on.
Everywhere else in the world has monarchs, tyrants, dictators, etc, and the people think that's the "way it is". America showed that it didn't have to be that way.
Unfortunately, Americans seem to have forgotten that lesson.
Posted by: mynewhandle at May 25, 2015 10:31 AM (AkOaV)
8
Justice and fairness are like capital, mercy and charity like interest. You cannot have the latter without the former.
Posted by: Grump928(c) at May 25, 2015 10:32 AM (evdj2)
9
Thank You Veterans! May God Bless You All!
Posted by: OTB at May 25, 2015 10:32 AM (ksH9k)
10
A long time ago when I was a postdoc my circle of friends consisted largely of foreign nationals. Scientists from Spain, Mexico, China, India, France, and elsewhere who had come to this country to do a 2-3 year research stint.
I recall sitting around one day talking about our home countries and the question arose: what do you love best about your country? Most of them were answering something to do with a landmark or celebration in their home countries. When it got to me, I said "my system of government." This drew a laugh (somewhat derisive, to be frank) and some ribbing.
These days, I would not provide the same answer... and that is as depressing as hell.
I recall sitting around one day talking about our home countries and the question arose: what do you love best about your country? Most of them were answering something to do with a landmark or celebration in their home countries. When it got to me, I said "my system of government." This drew a laugh (somewhat derisive, to be frank) and some ribbing.
These days, I would not provide the same answer... and that is as depressing as hell.
Posted by: Y-not at May 25, 2015 10:32 AM (RWGcK)
11
Remember when JFK said, "Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country?"
That concept is as foreign to Democrats today as suggesting that public unions are a bad thing.
That concept is as foreign to Democrats today as suggesting that public unions are a bad thing.
Posted by: LoneStarHeeb at May 25, 2015 10:33 AM (BZAd3)
12
Liberty. Being American is about being committed to the ideal of Liberty and everything that the word implies. If you like telling other people what to do with their lives, whether it applies to guns, soft drinks, free speech, religion, if you get off on passing more and more rules on what people can or can't do with their own lives, then you are not committed to Liberty.
That is why the corruption of the word "Liberal", which is derived from the word "liberty", has always saddened me. There is nothing worse than watching people who call themselves "liberals" discuss the various ways in which people should have their freedom restricted, usually because it's for their own good (insert C.S. Lewis quote about the worse kinds of tyrants here...)
That is why the corruption of the word "Liberal", which is derived from the word "liberty", has always saddened me. There is nothing worse than watching people who call themselves "liberals" discuss the various ways in which people should have their freedom restricted, usually because it's for their own good (insert C.S. Lewis quote about the worse kinds of tyrants here...)
Posted by: Pave Low John at May 25, 2015 10:34 AM (Q2Z7Q)
13
Freedom, tempered by responsibility.
Posted by: Muldoon, a solid man at May 25, 2015 10:34 AM (mvenn)
14
Remember when JFK said, "Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country?"
---
I think THEY think that they believe this. But they have replaced "country" with "Barack Obama."
Creepy.
---
I think THEY think that they believe this. But they have replaced "country" with "Barack Obama."
Creepy.
Posted by: Y-not at May 25, 2015 10:34 AM (RWGcK)
15
That concept is as foreign to Democrats today as suggesting that public unions are a bad thing.
I got in a mild argument with one of my oldest friends this week, a retired teacher, about Scott Walker being 'anti-union'. I maintained that he was pro-worker. He didn't outlaw unions, he allowed workers to choose to be in one or not. That they chose to not tells us more about the unions than it does about Walker.
I got in a mild argument with one of my oldest friends this week, a retired teacher, about Scott Walker being 'anti-union'. I maintained that he was pro-worker. He didn't outlaw unions, he allowed workers to choose to be in one or not. That they chose to not tells us more about the unions than it does about Walker.
Posted by: Grump928(c) at May 25, 2015 10:35 AM (evdj2)
16
Restraint.
Germany and Japan could have ceased to exist. The entire globe could easily have become one big U.S. colony.
Germany and Japan could have ceased to exist. The entire globe could easily have become one big U.S. colony.
Posted by: Bob's House of Flannel Shirts and Wallet Chains at May 25, 2015 10:39 AM (yxw0r)
17
"10
A long time ago when I was a postdoc my circle of friends consisted
largely of foreign nationals. Scientists from Spain, Mexico, China,
India, France, and elsewhere who had come to this country to do a 2-3
year research stint.
I recall sitting around one day talking about our home countries and
the question arose: what do you love best about your country? Most of
them were answering something to do with a landmark or celebration in
their home countries. When it got to me, I said "my system of
government." This drew a laugh (somewhat derisive, to be frank) and some
ribbing.
These days, I would not provide the same answer... and that is as depressing as hell.
Posted by: Y-not at May 25, 2015 10:32 AM (RWGcK)"
So then the question naturally arises, "How did we lose it? America was the best thing that ever happened to human being on earth and how did we let it be turned into the empty shell, the animated corpse that it is today?"
Or is that even a question worth asking? Should we put our effort into trying to figure out what comes next?
A long time ago when I was a postdoc my circle of friends consisted
largely of foreign nationals. Scientists from Spain, Mexico, China,
India, France, and elsewhere who had come to this country to do a 2-3
year research stint.
I recall sitting around one day talking about our home countries and
the question arose: what do you love best about your country? Most of
them were answering something to do with a landmark or celebration in
their home countries. When it got to me, I said "my system of
government." This drew a laugh (somewhat derisive, to be frank) and some
ribbing.
These days, I would not provide the same answer... and that is as depressing as hell.
Posted by: Y-not at May 25, 2015 10:32 AM (RWGcK)"
So then the question naturally arises, "How did we lose it? America was the best thing that ever happened to human being on earth and how did we let it be turned into the empty shell, the animated corpse that it is today?"
Or is that even a question worth asking? Should we put our effort into trying to figure out what comes next?
Posted by: Obnoxious A-Hole at May 25, 2015 10:39 AM (QHgTq)
18
Smoked meats.
Posted by: Sponge at May 25, 2015 10:41 AM (+1NX7)
19
Sorry, but I've always seen this quote as the perfect liberal mindset: No difference at all between the races, between the genders, between Any Group A and Any Group B. I celebrate the differences in God's great tapestry, up to and including those components that different races can and often do perceive differently. There's possibly no "better" or "worse," but that doesn't mean there's no "different."
And who gets to judge the "content of character?" I'm not sure I've met anybody who ever admitted they'd gone off the rails. Many of our recent urban street protestors honestly believe in their cause, and would claim their integrity demands these confrontations. The crazy 19 who rearranged the NYC skyline seem to have believed in "content of character" even unto suicide.
I don't want to be a fly in the oatmeal on this blessed day of reflection and remembrance, but I have a hard time using MLK as a political or spiritual guidepost.
And who gets to judge the "content of character?" I'm not sure I've met anybody who ever admitted they'd gone off the rails. Many of our recent urban street protestors honestly believe in their cause, and would claim their integrity demands these confrontations. The crazy 19 who rearranged the NYC skyline seem to have believed in "content of character" even unto suicide.
I don't want to be a fly in the oatmeal on this blessed day of reflection and remembrance, but I have a hard time using MLK as a political or spiritual guidepost.
Posted by: Kate58 at May 25, 2015 10:41 AM (oLZsm)
20
"It is said an Eastern monarch once charged his wise men to invent him a sentence, to be ever in view, and which should be true and appropriate in all times and situations. They presented him the words: "And this, too, shall pass away." How much it expresses! How chastening in the hour of pride! -- how consoling in the depths of affliction! "And this, too, shall pass away." And yet let us hope it is not quite true. Let us hope, rather, that by the best cultivation of the physical world, beneath and around us; and the intellectual and moral world within us, we shall secure an individual, social, and political prosperity and happiness, whose course shall be onward and upward, and which, while the earth endures, shall not pass away." - A. Lincoln
Posted by: Grump928(c) at May 25, 2015 10:41 AM (evdj2)
21
>>So then the question naturally arises, "How did we lose it?
I think we lost it when we abandoned the commitment to a level playing field in favor of special treatment. I think affirmative action, on the one hand, AND this ruling class crap, on the other, have killed the American belief in the potential greatness available to each of us if we apply ourselves.
Killing off millions of people because they were an inconvenience to their mothers and fathers didn't help either.
I think we lost it when we abandoned the commitment to a level playing field in favor of special treatment. I think affirmative action, on the one hand, AND this ruling class crap, on the other, have killed the American belief in the potential greatness available to each of us if we apply ourselves.
Killing off millions of people because they were an inconvenience to their mothers and fathers didn't help either.
Posted by: Y-not at May 25, 2015 10:42 AM (RWGcK)
22
So then the question naturally arises, "How did we lose it? America was
the best thing that ever happened to human being on earth and how did we
let it be turned into the empty shell, the animated corpse that it is
today?"
Exactly the way Alexis de Tocqueville said we would; we made it possible for people to loot the public treasury by way of election. Thank you, WW and FDR.
the best thing that ever happened to human being on earth and how did we
let it be turned into the empty shell, the animated corpse that it is
today?"
Exactly the way Alexis de Tocqueville said we would; we made it possible for people to loot the public treasury by way of election. Thank you, WW and FDR.
Posted by: Gregory of Yardale at May 25, 2015 10:42 AM (c/Ipt)
23
This country is in Wyle E. Coyote mode: we are off the edge and in free fall. the canyon floor is coming very fast.
Posted by: Charles Martel at May 25, 2015 10:43 AM (EWQg3)
Posted by: Grump928(c) at May 25, 2015 10:43 AM (evdj2)
25
Sorry, but I've always seen this quote as the perfect liberal mindset: No difference at all between the races, between the genders, between Any Group A and Any Group B.
--
Wow. I think you're dead wrong.
It is exemplifying "all men are created equal." It is saying that the content of your character is what matters, not if you were born a certain color (or on the right side of the tracks or into poverty or to the "wrong" family).
To me this is the fundamental American value.
--
Wow. I think you're dead wrong.
It is exemplifying "all men are created equal." It is saying that the content of your character is what matters, not if you were born a certain color (or on the right side of the tracks or into poverty or to the "wrong" family).
To me this is the fundamental American value.
Posted by: Y-not at May 25, 2015 10:43 AM (RWGcK)
26
He didn't outlaw unions, he allowed workers to
choose to be in one or not. That they chose to not tells us more about
the unions than it does about Walker.
Posted by: Grump928(c) at May 25, 2015 10:35 AM (evdj2)
Strange, isn't it, that the left is only pro-choice when it comes to killing babies.
School vouchers - nope
Union membership - nope
Charity - nope
Religious beliefs - nope
Gun ownership - nope
choose to be in one or not. That they chose to not tells us more about
the unions than it does about Walker.
Posted by: Grump928(c) at May 25, 2015 10:35 AM (evdj2)
Strange, isn't it, that the left is only pro-choice when it comes to killing babies.
School vouchers - nope
Union membership - nope
Charity - nope
Religious beliefs - nope
Gun ownership - nope
Posted by: Washington Nearsider, Keeper of the Guards, returned from 1080 exile at May 25, 2015 10:44 AM (cv6Ng)
27
I got in a mild argument with one of my oldest friends this week, a retired teacher, about Scott Walker being 'anti-union'. I maintained that he was pro-worker. He didn't outlaw unions, he allowed workers to choose to be in one or not. That they chose to not tells us more about the unions than it does about Walker.
Posted by: Grump928(c) at May 25, 2015 10:35 AM (evdj2)
That was, likely, the first time he/she heard the argument presented that way.
Correctly.
Posted by: Grump928(c) at May 25, 2015 10:35 AM (evdj2)
That was, likely, the first time he/she heard the argument presented that way.
Correctly.
Posted by: 98ZJUSMC Suntanning in Bizzaro World at May 25, 2015 10:44 AM (mmlFU)
28
"How did we lose it? America was the best thing that ever happened to human being on earth and how did we let it be turned into the empty shell, the animated corpse that it is today?"
I don't buy that. American is made up of it's people not the crooked Media or the self serving Gov. Those can be fixed. Riots and crime make people conservative. We are seeing plenty of both.
I don't buy that. American is made up of it's people not the crooked Media or the self serving Gov. Those can be fixed. Riots and crime make people conservative. We are seeing plenty of both.
Posted by: Oldsailors Poet. at May 25, 2015 10:45 AM (KbNXw)
29
22 Don't forget to thank TR for propelling WW into the Whitehouse.
Posted by: Edmund Burke's Shade, languishing in Krazyfornia at May 25, 2015 10:46 AM (cmBvC)
30
What value do you think of as distinctly American?
The remnants of distinctly American values still exist in the slogans and platitudes of politicians. Patriotic Americans still remember them and cling to them, as well. But in reality, they are vapor, I think, wafting away on the breeze of corrupt ideology.
The remnants of distinctly American values still exist in the slogans and platitudes of politicians. Patriotic Americans still remember them and cling to them, as well. But in reality, they are vapor, I think, wafting away on the breeze of corrupt ideology.
Posted by: LoneStarHeeb at May 25, 2015 10:46 AM (BZAd3)
31
Its Memorial Day, and I don't want to let it pass without saying how grateful I am to the American Military for their hard work and sacrifice on our behalf - to keep us safe and free. I have such gratitude and affection for them. They are truly our best.
(but it seems we don't deserve them)
Its Memorial Day, and I don't want to let it pass without saying how grateful I am to the American Military for their hard work and sacrifice on our behalf - to keep us safe and free. I have such gratitude and affection for them. They are truly our best.
(but it seems we don't deserve them)
Posted by: Lily at May 25, 2015 10:47 AM (eBvf6)
32
This country is in Wyle E. Coyote mode: we are off the edge and in free fall. the canyon floor is coming very fast.
And the left just thinks it means we have broken free of the physical laws, are weightless and accelerating
And the left just thinks it means we have broken free of the physical laws, are weightless and accelerating
Posted by: Gregory of Yardale at May 25, 2015 10:48 AM (c/Ipt)
33
For me, the most American value is the idea, rarely seen in the world, that we are all free to go our own way, and live with the consequences. And that Government's business is limited to protecting that freedom.
Posted by: Splunge at May 25, 2015 10:48 AM (qyomX)
34
11
Remember when JFK said, "Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country?"
That concept is as foreign to Democrats today as suggesting that public unions are a bad thing.
Posted by: LoneStarHeeb at May 25, 2015 10:33 AM (BZAd3)
And isn't it ironic that JFK ushered in public unions. When told he could not do it he rammed it through a compliant Democrat congress.
Remember when JFK said, "Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country?"
That concept is as foreign to Democrats today as suggesting that public unions are a bad thing.
Posted by: LoneStarHeeb at May 25, 2015 10:33 AM (BZAd3)
And isn't it ironic that JFK ushered in public unions. When told he could not do it he rammed it through a compliant Democrat congress.
Posted by: Vic We Have No Party at May 25, 2015 10:49 AM (GpgJl)
35
I don't know what it so hard for Leftys to get about personal liberty. I guess its about your Father/Government to take care of you for your whole life.
Posted by: skip at May 25, 2015 10:50 AM (gbkdW)
36
I'm interviewing the Spartanburg SC Tea Party rep on my Radio show this Thursday. She is also running the local campaign for Scott Walker. Should be fun.
Posted by: Oldsailors Poet. at May 25, 2015 10:50 AM (KbNXw)
37
Everything meaningful to me about America seems to be in the past tense.
Yeah, that's where I am.
I don't know this family--this is a headstone in a random cemetery on a random Saturday hike I took in 2009.
https://twitter.com/HRatAOSHQ/status/602790035675447296
From the surrounding markers, I surmised these were Italian immigrants; maybe first-gen Americans. Their son went off to fight for America and died in Italy.
Now we've got immigrants whose kids fight AGAINST America. Djoker and Tspeedbump. Somali jihadis from the Twin Cities. That fucking fuck at Ft. Hood. Those girls living in Colorado who tried to fly to Syria to be ISIS' fucktoys. Etc.
And people born here who say, "what a minute, this is fucking wrong" are marginalized by "polite society" as racists.
I don't think that's what the Pangallos were expecting when their son joined up. And I don't think we can get back to their America.
Yeah, that's where I am.
I don't know this family--this is a headstone in a random cemetery on a random Saturday hike I took in 2009.
https://twitter.com/HRatAOSHQ/status/602790035675447296
From the surrounding markers, I surmised these were Italian immigrants; maybe first-gen Americans. Their son went off to fight for America and died in Italy.
Now we've got immigrants whose kids fight AGAINST America. Djoker and Tspeedbump. Somali jihadis from the Twin Cities. That fucking fuck at Ft. Hood. Those girls living in Colorado who tried to fly to Syria to be ISIS' fucktoys. Etc.
And people born here who say, "what a minute, this is fucking wrong" are marginalized by "polite society" as racists.
I don't think that's what the Pangallos were expecting when their son joined up. And I don't think we can get back to their America.
Posted by: HR finally drinking a beer at May 25, 2015 10:50 AM (rHXGG)
38
MLKJr, Republican fwiw, when at his best, sought Equality before the Law, not equality of station or outcome.
Posted by: Grump928(c) at May 25, 2015 10:50 AM (evdj2)
39
For me, 'Murica is:
Black thugs being able to shoot white police officers to death because Racism.
Faygelehs hounding those stupid christianists with businesses out of business because Homophobia.
Ugly broads chasing all straight, white males i.e. "rapists" off campus because Sexism.
All of us dependent on Daddy Government milking every dime out of you working, responsible suckers until you drop dead because Classism.
Howard Zinn fans being able to walk around with "AmeriKKKa sucks and so does those idiots who died trying to protected the American Empire from the Holy Brown-Skinned People of the World!!" signs on days like today.......
Media-Akbar!! Academia-Akbar!! 0Bola-Akbar! Democrat Party-Akbar!
Black thugs being able to shoot white police officers to death because Racism.
Faygelehs hounding those stupid christianists with businesses out of business because Homophobia.
Ugly broads chasing all straight, white males i.e. "rapists" off campus because Sexism.
All of us dependent on Daddy Government milking every dime out of you working, responsible suckers until you drop dead because Classism.
Howard Zinn fans being able to walk around with "AmeriKKKa sucks and so does those idiots who died trying to protected the American Empire from the Holy Brown-Skinned People of the World!!" signs on days like today.......
Media-Akbar!! Academia-Akbar!! 0Bola-Akbar! Democrat Party-Akbar!
Posted by: Left-Wing nutjob at May 25, 2015 10:51 AM (2mJMN)
40
So then the question naturally arises, "How did we
lose it? America was the best thing that ever happened to human being on
earth and how did we let it be turned into the empty shell, the
animated corpse that it is today?"
Or is that even a question worth asking? Should we put our effort into trying to figure out what comes next?
Posted by: Obnoxious A-Hole at May 25, 2015 10:39 AM (QHgTq)
It can all be laid at the feet of FDR and later LBJ. FDR made it socialist and LBJ started us on the road to communist.
lose it? America was the best thing that ever happened to human being on
earth and how did we let it be turned into the empty shell, the
animated corpse that it is today?"
Or is that even a question worth asking? Should we put our effort into trying to figure out what comes next?
Posted by: Obnoxious A-Hole at May 25, 2015 10:39 AM (QHgTq)
It can all be laid at the feet of FDR and later LBJ. FDR made it socialist and LBJ started us on the road to communist.
Posted by: Vic We Have No Party at May 25, 2015 10:51 AM (GpgJl)
41
What I find near universal is our lack of deference to authority. I have noticed a more servile attitude to leadership in some of my colleagues who are of more recent American vintage and it grates on my nerves. Don't talk tough, then pull your forelock at His Lordship!
Posted by: All Hail Eris at May 25, 2015 10:51 AM (jR7Wy)
Posted by: Nevergiveup at May 25, 2015 10:52 AM (rDqRv)
43
What value do you think of as distinctly American?
The ability to move. To get in your car, travel hundreds of miles and start a new life. Anytime, any place.
The ability to move. To get in your car, travel hundreds of miles and start a new life. Anytime, any place.
Posted by: Oldsailors Poet. at May 25, 2015 10:52 AM (KbNXw)
Posted by: HR finally drinking a beer at May 25, 2015 10:53 AM (rHXGG)
45
Great point, HR.
Posted by: Y-not at May 25, 2015 10:53 AM (RWGcK)
Posted by: Smilin' Jackj at May 25, 2015 10:54 AM (EA+eu)
47
Perhaps the roots of our destruction really were planted in slavery; the unintended consequence of which has resulted in a permanent 12-13% of the population as hardcore Communist; risking to 90% in large cities.
Posted by: Gregory of Yardale at May 25, 2015 10:55 AM (c/Ipt)
48
We didn't loose it we were sold out. When the government sold the USA to the Federal Reserve which is a private bank. The politicians were bought and our country sold for a pittance. Our government are just hirelings.
Posted by: OTB at May 25, 2015 10:56 AM (ksH9k)
49
44
It can all be laid at the feet of FDR and later LBJ.
Let's not exculpate Wilson.
Posted by: HR finally drinking a beer at May 25, 2015 10:53 AM (rHXGG)
I don't think Wilson was able to get a lot of his crap through congress the way FDR and LBJ did. So there was not near as much damage to the country.
It can all be laid at the feet of FDR and later LBJ.
Let's not exculpate Wilson.
Posted by: HR finally drinking a beer at May 25, 2015 10:53 AM (rHXGG)
I don't think Wilson was able to get a lot of his crap through congress the way FDR and LBJ did. So there was not near as much damage to the country.
Posted by: Vic We Have No Party at May 25, 2015 10:56 AM (GpgJl)
50
America was created by people, written down like a recipe on paper.
The Declaration and the Constitution.
A unique American value? Closest one I can think of is "There's no such thing as a free lunch"
The Declaration and the Constitution.
A unique American value? Closest one I can think of is "There's no such thing as a free lunch"
Posted by: eman at May 25, 2015 10:56 AM (MQEz6)
51
Of course, slavery itself was a violation of out professed fundamental values and ... yeah, that really came to bite us in the hinder.
Posted by: Gregory of Yardale at May 25, 2015 10:58 AM (c/Ipt)
52
I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a
nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by
the content of their character.
It seems that judging people by the content of their character is now verboten, as well.
And don't call them 'thugs.'
nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by
the content of their character.
It seems that judging people by the content of their character is now verboten, as well.
And don't call them 'thugs.'
Posted by: Franz Kafka at May 25, 2015 10:59 AM (oVJmc)
Posted by: 21st Century huckster at May 25, 2015 10:59 AM (W5DcG)
54
We didn't loose it we were sold out. When the government sold the USA to the Federal Reserve which is a private bank. The politicians were bought and our country sold for a pittance. Our government are just hirelings.
Much will be resolved in the Burning Time.
Much will be resolved in the Burning Time.
Posted by: Grump928(c) at May 25, 2015 10:59 AM (evdj2)
55
And off goes Fox News. Can't stand to watch this puke in Arlington.
Posted by: Bob's House of Flannel Shirts and Wallet Chains at May 25, 2015 10:59 AM (yxw0r)
56
"19
Sorry, but I've always seen this quote as the perfect liberal mindset:
No difference at all between the races, between the genders, between Any
Group A and Any Group B. I celebrate the differences in God's great
tapestry, up to and including those components that different races can
and often do perceive differently. There's possibly no "better" or
"worse," but that doesn't mean there's no "different."
And who
gets to judge the "content of character?" I'm not sure I've met anybody
who ever admitted they'd gone off the rails. Many of our recent urban
street protestors honestly believe in their cause, and would claim their
integrity demands these confrontations. The crazy 19 who rearranged the
NYC skyline seem to have believed in "content of character" even unto
suicide.
I don't want to be a fly in the oatmeal on this blessed
day of reflection and remembrance, but I have a hard time using MLK as a
political or spiritual guidepost.
Posted by: Kate58 at May 25, 2015 10:41 AM (oLZsm)"
No. I took it as an appeal to look beyond superficial differences to treat each other as part of the tribe of Americans. It was a call to treat all Americans as equal before God and the law.
Now we know that is either an outdated concept or else, I was just a naive rube who believed some crap that hucksters were selling in order to take advantage of my unsophisticated credulity. Today (and maybe since forever) an unaccountable ruling class encompassing both political parties runs things for their own benefit and they care as little as little about ordinary Americans as they do about the million third worlders they kill every year from malaria with their DDT ban.
The President and his party shout every day that we should not ignore skin color, that race is the most important consideration in every human interaction and that they hate me and everybody else with my skin. I am trying really hard to not let them convince me that I should also make race my number one consideration.
Sorry, but I've always seen this quote as the perfect liberal mindset:
No difference at all between the races, between the genders, between Any
Group A and Any Group B. I celebrate the differences in God's great
tapestry, up to and including those components that different races can
and often do perceive differently. There's possibly no "better" or
"worse," but that doesn't mean there's no "different."
And who
gets to judge the "content of character?" I'm not sure I've met anybody
who ever admitted they'd gone off the rails. Many of our recent urban
street protestors honestly believe in their cause, and would claim their
integrity demands these confrontations. The crazy 19 who rearranged the
NYC skyline seem to have believed in "content of character" even unto
suicide.
I don't want to be a fly in the oatmeal on this blessed
day of reflection and remembrance, but I have a hard time using MLK as a
political or spiritual guidepost.
Posted by: Kate58 at May 25, 2015 10:41 AM (oLZsm)"
No. I took it as an appeal to look beyond superficial differences to treat each other as part of the tribe of Americans. It was a call to treat all Americans as equal before God and the law.
Now we know that is either an outdated concept or else, I was just a naive rube who believed some crap that hucksters were selling in order to take advantage of my unsophisticated credulity. Today (and maybe since forever) an unaccountable ruling class encompassing both political parties runs things for their own benefit and they care as little as little about ordinary Americans as they do about the million third worlders they kill every year from malaria with their DDT ban.
The President and his party shout every day that we should not ignore skin color, that race is the most important consideration in every human interaction and that they hate me and everybody else with my skin. I am trying really hard to not let them convince me that I should also make race my number one consideration.
Posted by: Obnoxious A-Hole at May 25, 2015 10:59 AM (QHgTq)
57
I took it as an appeal to look beyond superficial differences to treat each other as part of the tribe of Americans. It was a call to treat all Americans as equal before God and the law.
---
^This.
---
^This.
Posted by: Y-not at May 25, 2015 11:01 AM (RWGcK)
58
I am trying really hard to not let them convince me that I should also make race my number one consideration.
Posted by: Obnoxious A-Hole at May 25, 2015 10:59 AM (QHgTq)
If you are a white working class male. You are the enemy of your own Gov. Wrap your brain around that.
Posted by: Obnoxious A-Hole at May 25, 2015 10:59 AM (QHgTq)
If you are a white working class male. You are the enemy of your own Gov. Wrap your brain around that.
Posted by: Oldsailors Poet. at May 25, 2015 11:02 AM (KbNXw)
59
Fucking Romney.
Posted by: Grump928(c) still bitter as hell at May 25, 2015 11:02 AM (evdj2)
60
For me, individual freedom is the most american value. Without freedom, nothing else matters.
Posted by: maddogg at May 25, 2015 11:05 AM (rgIC0)
61
One thing I will say about Wilson. Up until OBama arrived on the scene he was probably the most racist President we ever had.
Posted by: Vic We Have No Party at May 25, 2015 11:05 AM (GpgJl)
62
When you go back and read the founders thoughts after they created the republic, they really weren't all that optimistic about our being able to keep the republic long into the future. They knew that human nature was the enemy - people voting themselves largess from the public coffers, buying constituencies the same way, addiction to power, addiction to dependence - they foresaw it all and more. They knew that liberty was an anomaly and that the historical human condition was that of servitude.
Posted by: LoneStarHeeb at May 25, 2015 11:06 AM (BZAd3)
63
Yes it was Colin Powell, I believe, who said this (focus on the words not the man) during a WWII anniversary years ago and fitting on Memorial Day. These words also reflect for me what being American means.
---------------------------------------
- America crossed two oceans to save the world from tyranny and all we ever asked for was a place to bury our dead.
----------------------------------------
Not an aggressor but a defender, not conqueror but a liberator - me
---------------------------------------
- America crossed two oceans to save the world from tyranny and all we ever asked for was a place to bury our dead.
----------------------------------------
Not an aggressor but a defender, not conqueror but a liberator - me
Posted by: bobbymike at May 25, 2015 11:07 AM (GrkPt)
64
That Man does not exist for the purposes of Government.
Posted by: Pappy O'Daniel at May 25, 2015 11:08 AM (oVJmc)
65
62 They knew that human nature was the enemy - people
voting themselves largess from the public coffers, buying constituencies
the same way, addiction to power, addiction to dependence - they
foresaw it all and more. They knew that liberty was an anomaly and that
the historical human condition was that of servitude.
Posted by: LoneStarHeeb at May 25, 2015 11:06 AM (BZAd3)
That was what the written Constitution was designed to prevent. But Adams and Marshall started destroying that at an early date.
voting themselves largess from the public coffers, buying constituencies
the same way, addiction to power, addiction to dependence - they
foresaw it all and more. They knew that liberty was an anomaly and that
the historical human condition was that of servitude.
Posted by: LoneStarHeeb at May 25, 2015 11:06 AM (BZAd3)
That was what the written Constitution was designed to prevent. But Adams and Marshall started destroying that at an early date.
Posted by: Vic We Have No Party at May 25, 2015 11:08 AM (GpgJl)
66
What we used to call Freedom of Speech. The right to openly express your opinions and beliefs without retribution. A quaint notion now.
Posted by: Gwyneth's steaming hooha at May 25, 2015 11:08 AM (Cz/08)
Posted by: Anon Y. Mous at May 25, 2015 11:11 AM (IN7k+)
68
That was what the written Constitution was designed to prevent. But Adams and Marshall started destroying that at an early date.
Posted by: Vic We Have No Party at May 25, 2015 11:08 AM (GpgJl)
Yep, and for the reasons mentioned. Liberty is dangerous. It makes those who would rule fearful.
Posted by: Vic We Have No Party at May 25, 2015 11:08 AM (GpgJl)
Yep, and for the reasons mentioned. Liberty is dangerous. It makes those who would rule fearful.
Posted by: LoneStarHeeb at May 25, 2015 11:11 AM (BZAd3)
69
Self-reliance, responsibly exercised.
All else flows from that: Freedom, citizen government, equal opportunity - none of these can be enacted or utilized by someone whose existence is at the mercy of another.
All else flows from that: Freedom, citizen government, equal opportunity - none of these can be enacted or utilized by someone whose existence is at the mercy of another.
Posted by: LCMS Rulz! at May 25, 2015 11:11 AM (PEgKF)
70
I'm sorry.
Thinking about this stuff is too depressing.
I am going to go do something else, possibly involving large amounts of ethanol consumption.
I hope the rest of you have a more cheerful day.
Thinking about this stuff is too depressing.
I am going to go do something else, possibly involving large amounts of ethanol consumption.
I hope the rest of you have a more cheerful day.
Posted by: Obnoxious A-Hole at May 25, 2015 11:12 AM (QHgTq)
71
Big tits and apple pie
Posted by: Chewbama at May 25, 2015 11:14 AM (nlQae)
72
I can't remember the source or even the exact wording, but it struck a chord with me someways back to read a European commentator from WWII about how easy it was to distinguish the American GIs from the other Allied troops, because they "walked like free men."
There's an inherent something referenced there, a way of being that isn't deferential but isn't disrespectful either, something that doesn't feel the need to apologize but doesn't seek to offend. Something that says "I meet you as an equal, and even if you aren't okay with that, that's your worry, not mine."
Do we still walk like free men?
There's an inherent something referenced there, a way of being that isn't deferential but isn't disrespectful either, something that doesn't feel the need to apologize but doesn't seek to offend. Something that says "I meet you as an equal, and even if you aren't okay with that, that's your worry, not mine."
Do we still walk like free men?
Posted by: A. Pendragon at May 25, 2015 11:14 AM (Lrzm4)
73
The truth is, all systems fail - unless they are renewed.
It is, in my opinion, way past the time that our system needed renewal. But is it too late?
It is, in my opinion, way past the time that our system needed renewal. But is it too late?
Posted by: LoneStarHeeb at May 25, 2015 11:14 AM (BZAd3)
Posted by: OregonMuse at May 25, 2015 11:14 AM (tiyBy)
75
20 "It is said an Eastern monarch once charged his wise men to invent him a sentence, to be ever in view, and which should be true and appropriate in all times and situations. They presented him the words:
"Muslims are outraged!"
"Muslims are outraged!"
Posted by: Middle-Eastern Monarch at May 25, 2015 11:14 AM (PEgKF)
76
>>Thinking about this stuff is too depressing.
It can be. But it can also be a call to action.
You have kids. Raise them right.
I work with college students. I can try to reinforce these American values in them whenever I can.
It can be. But it can also be a call to action.
You have kids. Raise them right.
I work with college students. I can try to reinforce these American values in them whenever I can.
Posted by: Y-not at May 25, 2015 11:15 AM (RWGcK)
77
- America crossed two oceans to save the world from tyranny and all we ever asked for was a place to bury our dead.
----
I like that, bobbymike.
----
I like that, bobbymike.
Posted by: Y-not at May 25, 2015 11:16 AM (RWGcK)
78
Being a nation of laws where everyone is treated equal. The ruling elitists have just about destroyed this however. Remember Teddy Kennedy?
Posted by: Barry at May 25, 2015 11:16 AM (J3K9G)
79
"62 When you go back and read the founders thoughts after they created the republic, they really weren't all that optimistic about our being able to keep the republic long into the future."
----
Which is why it was always important to teach the children American history and exceptionalism. Which is also why the Gramscians have worked so hard to infiltrate the schools, to stop teaching history, to turn the children into good little global citizens who don't understand their own culture.
----
Which is why it was always important to teach the children American history and exceptionalism. Which is also why the Gramscians have worked so hard to infiltrate the schools, to stop teaching history, to turn the children into good little global citizens who don't understand their own culture.
Posted by: Gwyneth's steaming hooha at May 25, 2015 11:17 AM (Cz/08)
80
@74-
How about, 'Liberty, not License'
The words of John Adams concerning the kind of people our constitution was intended for have become prophetic.
How about, 'Liberty, not License'
The words of John Adams concerning the kind of people our constitution was intended for have become prophetic.
Posted by: teej at May 25, 2015 11:18 AM (qyZxC)
81
Do we still walk like free men?
Posted by: A. Pendragon at May 25, 2015 11:14 AM (Lrzm4)
When I hear things like that, I think of my dad. He walked like a free man. I remember holding on to his fingers at the stock car races when they played the national anthem. I could tell as a small kid that he was moved every time the anthem was played.
Guys like my dad are still around and you know them when you see them - no doubt. But they are rare.
Posted by: A. Pendragon at May 25, 2015 11:14 AM (Lrzm4)
When I hear things like that, I think of my dad. He walked like a free man. I remember holding on to his fingers at the stock car races when they played the national anthem. I could tell as a small kid that he was moved every time the anthem was played.
Guys like my dad are still around and you know them when you see them - no doubt. But they are rare.
Posted by: LoneStarHeeb at May 25, 2015 11:18 AM (BZAd3)
82
I think it is quintessentially an American view to look at something and think "I can do that or I can fix that." It may get us into trouble at times, but to believe you have no limits other than your own effort and ability is a glorious thing. Sadly, this belief is being steadily eroded. I will still raise my kids with the belief they can. Nothing kills my soul like hearing someone say they can't do something before they have even tried.
Posted by: no good deed at May 25, 2015 11:19 AM (GgxVX)
83
g'late mornin', 'rons
Posted by: AltonJackson at May 25, 2015 11:20 AM (KCxzN)
84
I think the best thing about this country is Freedom of Religion. I go to a nice building every Sunday morning, not an underground house church. There are many such buildings in every town and countryside in this land. Those who do not take advantage of such opportunities have that luxury, also.
God Bless the USA.
God Bless the USA.
Posted by: ALH at May 25, 2015 11:20 AM (btTLZ)
85
"What value do you think of as distinctly American?"
________
Practically everything in "Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer." Seriously. Consider:
A reindeer with a shortcoming really wanted to be on the sleigh team. He worked hard and eventually his flaw was deemed to be an asset. He made the team.
Just because one is born an elf doesn't mean one is destined to build toys. If an elf wishes to become a dentist, he can learn dentistry and pursue that career.
Everyone has value, even the misfit toys. Even the Abominable.
Leadership (Santa) is important, as are individualism (Yukon Cornelius), community (the Island of Misfit Toys) and support from loved ones (Clarisse).
There are so many American values in that story that I can't single one out as the most important. It's how they all blend together.
________
Practically everything in "Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer." Seriously. Consider:
A reindeer with a shortcoming really wanted to be on the sleigh team. He worked hard and eventually his flaw was deemed to be an asset. He made the team.
Just because one is born an elf doesn't mean one is destined to build toys. If an elf wishes to become a dentist, he can learn dentistry and pursue that career.
Everyone has value, even the misfit toys. Even the Abominable.
Leadership (Santa) is important, as are individualism (Yukon Cornelius), community (the Island of Misfit Toys) and support from loved ones (Clarisse).
There are so many American values in that story that I can't single one out as the most important. It's how they all blend together.
Posted by: FireHorse at May 25, 2015 11:21 AM (fgb4J)
86
Another question that has become pertinent today is this:
What does it mean to be a hyphenated American?
The MFM has pushed that meme since before I got out of high school. It is so common now nobody even thinks about it when they use it. But you NEVER heard it when I was a kid in the 50s.
What does it mean to be a hyphenated American?
The MFM has pushed that meme since before I got out of high school. It is so common now nobody even thinks about it when they use it. But you NEVER heard it when I was a kid in the 50s.
Posted by: Vic We Have No Party at May 25, 2015 11:22 AM (GpgJl)
87
Speaking of churches, this is a disturbing story:
http://www.nbcconnecticut.com/news/local/Hartford-Police-investigating-304847031.html
Hartford police are investigating two early morning shootings Sunday that happened minutes apart, sending two victims to the hospital, including a beloved pastor shot outside a church while putting out Memorial Day flags.
The pastor shot was identified as Rev. Dr. Augustus Sealy, 54, of Shrewsbury, Massachusetts. The victim of the second shooting was Robert Jones, 27.
http://www.nbcconnecticut.com/news/local/Hartford-Police-investigating-304847031.html
Hartford police are investigating two early morning shootings Sunday that happened minutes apart, sending two victims to the hospital, including a beloved pastor shot outside a church while putting out Memorial Day flags.
The pastor shot was identified as Rev. Dr. Augustus Sealy, 54, of Shrewsbury, Massachusetts. The victim of the second shooting was Robert Jones, 27.
Posted by: Y-not at May 25, 2015 11:23 AM (RWGcK)
88
"A nation of laws, not men" is one of my favorite ways to sum up our founding principles.
Posted by: pookysgirl can walk (in a pool) at May 25, 2015 11:23 AM (zTnOj)
89
Raging Rudolph - YouTube
www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_RH44K0x_4
www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_RH44K0x_4
Posted by: Grump928(c) still bitter as hell at May 25, 2015 11:25 AM (evdj2)
90
21 >>So then the question naturally arises, "How did we lose it?
I think we lost it when we abandoned the commitment to a level playing field in favor of special treatment.
Posted by: Y-not at May 25, 2015 10:42 AM (RWGcK)
************************
When we went from 'equal opportunity' to 'equal outcome'.
There is no telling where equal opportunity could or would take us. That scares a lot of people, particularly Progressives - who are fearful, nasty little shirt-winders, and not good at abstractions in the first place.
Equal outcome, on the other hand, is much easier to define: cut down the "tall ones" until the "short ones" catch up. Never noticing that the short ones feed off of the tall ones, and without their food source they cannot grow; they cannot catch up. That's why the Left always tends to ever more brutality.
I think we lost it when we abandoned the commitment to a level playing field in favor of special treatment.
Posted by: Y-not at May 25, 2015 10:42 AM (RWGcK)
************************
When we went from 'equal opportunity' to 'equal outcome'.
There is no telling where equal opportunity could or would take us. That scares a lot of people, particularly Progressives - who are fearful, nasty little shirt-winders, and not good at abstractions in the first place.
Equal outcome, on the other hand, is much easier to define: cut down the "tall ones" until the "short ones" catch up. Never noticing that the short ones feed off of the tall ones, and without their food source they cannot grow; they cannot catch up. That's why the Left always tends to ever more brutality.
Posted by: Opportunity is not Outcome at May 25, 2015 11:25 AM (PEgKF)
91
There are so many American values in that story that I can't single one
out as the most important. It's how they all blend together.
Including the shallow, overbearing alcoholic Coach Comet, Fireball (who became a crack addict giving hoof jobs for money) and that cheap whore, Clarice.
out as the most important. It's how they all blend together.
Including the shallow, overbearing alcoholic Coach Comet, Fireball (who became a crack addict giving hoof jobs for money) and that cheap whore, Clarice.
Posted by: Clutch Cargo at May 25, 2015 11:25 AM (sH832)
92
It can all be laid at the feet of FDR and later LBJ. FDR made it socialist and LBJ started us on the road to communist.
Posted by: Vic We Have No Party at May 25, 2015 10:51 AM (GpgJl)
One man couldn't do it alone. The idiots who voted for them and blindly supported, or didn't oppose them in Congress, the MFM's never ending propaganda share the blame. Anyone promising government utopia should have been run out of town but they are everywhere but they got in power and took over.
It can all be laid at the feet of FDR and later LBJ. FDR made it socialist and LBJ started us on the road to communist.
Posted by: Vic We Have No Party at May 25, 2015 10:51 AM (GpgJl)
One man couldn't do it alone. The idiots who voted for them and blindly supported, or didn't oppose them in Congress, the MFM's never ending propaganda share the blame. Anyone promising government utopia should have been run out of town but they are everywhere but they got in power and took over.
Posted by: TheQuietMan at May 25, 2015 11:25 AM (DiZBp)
93
I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character.
- From Martin Luther King's "I have a dream" speech, August 28, 1963
-----------
That sentiment may exemplify what it means to be an American. However this was certainly not the case prior to 1865 as a completely contrary assessment was the basis of citizenship itself. It certainly was not the case in reality in much of the country until at least 1965 as full rights of citizenship were defined on a contrary basis. So if this type of sentiment is what it means to be an American, then the country has been fundamentally transformed at least twice already. Why not do so every 8 years? Or every 4 years? Or more fundamentally does being American mean simply dreaming of a utopian world that has never existed. Is there nothing else to define us than ideological dreams? Is there nothing of substance?
- From Martin Luther King's "I have a dream" speech, August 28, 1963
-----------
That sentiment may exemplify what it means to be an American. However this was certainly not the case prior to 1865 as a completely contrary assessment was the basis of citizenship itself. It certainly was not the case in reality in much of the country until at least 1965 as full rights of citizenship were defined on a contrary basis. So if this type of sentiment is what it means to be an American, then the country has been fundamentally transformed at least twice already. Why not do so every 8 years? Or every 4 years? Or more fundamentally does being American mean simply dreaming of a utopian world that has never existed. Is there nothing else to define us than ideological dreams? Is there nothing of substance?
Posted by: RioBravo at May 25, 2015 11:26 AM (NUqwG)
94
Equal outcome, on the other hand, is much easier to define: cut down the "tall ones" until the "short ones" catch up. Never noticing that the short ones feed off of the tall ones, and without their food source they cannot grow; they cannot catch up. That's why the Left always tends to ever more brutality.
Levelers always level down.
Levelers always level down.
Posted by: Grump928(c) still bitter as hell at May 25, 2015 11:26 AM (evdj2)
95
When we went from 'equal opportunity' to 'equal outcome'.
-----
When was the period of equal opportunity for all? 1965 to 1970?
-----
When was the period of equal opportunity for all? 1965 to 1970?
Posted by: RioBravo at May 25, 2015 11:27 AM (NUqwG)
96
The words of John Adams concerning the kind of people our constitution was intended for have become prophetic.
I think you mean this one:
"Because we have no government, armed with power, capable of contending with human passions, unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge and licentiousness would break the strongest cords of our Constitution, as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other."
I think you mean this one:
"Because we have no government, armed with power, capable of contending with human passions, unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge and licentiousness would break the strongest cords of our Constitution, as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other."
Posted by: OregonMuse at May 25, 2015 11:27 AM (tiyBy)
97
The MFM has pushed that meme since before I got out of high school. It is so common now nobody even thinks about it when they use it. But you NEVER heard it when I was a kid in the 50s.
---
This is an interesting subject to me and probably worth a post of its own someday.
My parents grew up in New England, as did my husband's parents. Both grew up in towns that had very distinctive ethnic identities. There were Polish neighborhoods, Irish, Italian, etc.
Those folks most definitely kept their immigrant identities. (My dad is first generation American from Irish immigrants. My husband's grandmothers were French-Canadian and Italian, respectively, and both spoke their native languages at home.) So I don't know about how new the "hyphenated" thing was.
But they were Americans. They saw themselves as Americans, with an ethnic identity.
To me the thing that has accelerated the loss of that value is multilingualism in public schools. Our parents' generations were expected to learn English. Some did not, of course, but they did not expect to be accommodated. And they expected their children to learn English if they were going to succeed.
---
This is an interesting subject to me and probably worth a post of its own someday.
My parents grew up in New England, as did my husband's parents. Both grew up in towns that had very distinctive ethnic identities. There were Polish neighborhoods, Irish, Italian, etc.
Those folks most definitely kept their immigrant identities. (My dad is first generation American from Irish immigrants. My husband's grandmothers were French-Canadian and Italian, respectively, and both spoke their native languages at home.) So I don't know about how new the "hyphenated" thing was.
But they were Americans. They saw themselves as Americans, with an ethnic identity.
To me the thing that has accelerated the loss of that value is multilingualism in public schools. Our parents' generations were expected to learn English. Some did not, of course, but they did not expect to be accommodated. And they expected their children to learn English if they were going to succeed.
Posted by: Y-not at May 25, 2015 11:28 AM (RWGcK)
98
One of my favorite movies has a dialog about that it means to be American:
Theodore Roosevelt:
The American grizzly is a symbol of the American character: strength,
intelligence, ferocity. Maybe a little blind and reckless at times...
but courageous beyond all doubt. And one other trait that goes with all
previous.
2nd Reporter:
And that, Mr. President?
Theodore Roosevelt:
Loneliness. The American grizzly lives out his life alone. Indomitable,
unconquered - but always alone. He has no real allies, only enemies, but
none of them as great as he.
2nd Reporter:
And you feel this might be an American trait?
Theodore Roosevelt:
Certainly. The world will never love us. They respect us - they might
even grow to fear us. But they will never love us, for we have too much
audacity! And, we're a bit blind and reckless at times too.
2nd Reporter:
Are you perhaps referring to the situation in Morocco and the Panama Canal.
Theodore Roosevelt:
If you say so ... The American grizzly embodies the spirit of America. He
should be our symbol! Not that ridiculous eagle - he's nothing more
than a dandified vulture.
Theodore Roosevelt:
The American grizzly is a symbol of the American character: strength,
intelligence, ferocity. Maybe a little blind and reckless at times...
but courageous beyond all doubt. And one other trait that goes with all
previous.
2nd Reporter:
And that, Mr. President?
Theodore Roosevelt:
Loneliness. The American grizzly lives out his life alone. Indomitable,
unconquered - but always alone. He has no real allies, only enemies, but
none of them as great as he.
2nd Reporter:
And you feel this might be an American trait?
Theodore Roosevelt:
Certainly. The world will never love us. They respect us - they might
even grow to fear us. But they will never love us, for we have too much
audacity! And, we're a bit blind and reckless at times too.
2nd Reporter:
Are you perhaps referring to the situation in Morocco and the Panama Canal.
Theodore Roosevelt:
If you say so ... The American grizzly embodies the spirit of America. He
should be our symbol! Not that ridiculous eagle - he's nothing more
than a dandified vulture.
Posted by: Vic We Have No Party at May 25, 2015 11:28 AM (GpgJl)
99
Here's another dang prophetic quote from John Adams:
"There is nothing which I dread so much as a division of the republic into two great parties, each arranged under its leader, and concerting measures in opposition to each other. This, in my humble apprehension, is to be dreaded as the greatest political evil under our Constitution."
"There is nothing which I dread so much as a division of the republic into two great parties, each arranged under its leader, and concerting measures in opposition to each other. This, in my humble apprehension, is to be dreaded as the greatest political evil under our Constitution."
Posted by: OregonMuse at May 25, 2015 11:29 AM (tiyBy)
100
Traveling around the word in the Navy/government service, I discovered ain't no place better than America. I confess, even today as things are trending, America, and Texas, is still the best place in the world to live. Just an example. My Daddy went ashore at D-Day and was wounded 2 weeks later at St. Lo. He didn't interact much with any French, mostly he was with brothers in the 29 Inf Div and they were 'interacting' with Germans. He never went back to France. I think I know why because while in different parts of France in the 60's I found the French arrogant and unfriendly toward Americans. It may have been different in the Normandy area. I hear that is true. My opinion has not changed much since then. It was reinforced a few minutes ago by the scene in Saving Private Ryan where Cappozo was sniped while trying to save (he thought) a little French girl for her parents. Unappreciative parents.
Posted by: Eromero at May 25, 2015 11:29 AM (go5uR)
101
That sentiment may exemplify what it means to be an American. However this was certainly not the case prior to 1865 as a completely contrary assessment was the basis of citizenship itself. It certainly was not the case in reality in much of the country until at least 1965 as full rights of citizenship were defined on a contrary basis. So if this type of sentiment is what it means to be an American, then the country has been fundamentally transformed at least twice already.
--
Well, "all men are created equal."
So you are saying that the Founding Fathers were liars.
--
Well, "all men are created equal."
So you are saying that the Founding Fathers were liars.
Posted by: Y-not at May 25, 2015 11:30 AM (RWGcK)
102
two great parties, each arranged under its leader, and concerting measures in opposition to each other.
You're right, John, that would be awful!
You're right, John, that would be awful!
Posted by: The GOPe at May 25, 2015 11:31 AM (FcR7P)
103
The idea of citizens participating in government, whatever their station in life, is pretty fundamental to this country.
It's not supposed to be a country ruled by the Kennedys, Bushs, Romneys, Clintons, etc. It's supposed to be citizens self-ruling.
It's not supposed to be a country ruled by the Kennedys, Bushs, Romneys, Clintons, etc. It's supposed to be citizens self-ruling.
Posted by: Y-not at May 25, 2015 11:31 AM (RWGcK)
104
97 Posted by: Y-not at May 25, 2015 11:28 AM (RWGcK)
My hometown had a large VA hospital in it so we had a lot of people in our schools from all over. Some were first generation Americans whose parents came from other countries, especially Cuba.
They did not refer to themselves as Cuban-Americans. They were Americans and proud of it.
My hometown had a large VA hospital in it so we had a lot of people in our schools from all over. Some were first generation Americans whose parents came from other countries, especially Cuba.
They did not refer to themselves as Cuban-Americans. They were Americans and proud of it.
Posted by: Vic We Have No Party at May 25, 2015 11:32 AM (GpgJl)
105
Since right now I'm watching a livestream of the Texas House, wondering if they'll vote on campus carry today, I'll add 2A rights. When the government tells us we can't have something, Americans tend to flip them off and run out to buy more of it. I like that we still see that bigtime when it comes to guns.
Posted by: stace at May 25, 2015 11:32 AM (CoX6k)
106
it is my RIGHT to have 9 rifles 7 handguns and a shotgun in my gun locker and plenty of ammo and mags for all of them in my ammo locker...you know...just in case of an..."emergency"
now that we are so far away from what the founders wanted for us-any city or town in America could be the next ferguson or baltimore to have another "emergency"
being able to take care of oneself during times of crisis is-or at least used to be-perhaps the quintessetial American trait
now that we are so far away from what the founders wanted for us-any city or town in America could be the next ferguson or baltimore to have another "emergency"
being able to take care of oneself during times of crisis is-or at least used to be-perhaps the quintessetial American trait
Posted by: sound awake at May 25, 2015 11:32 AM (fKOqs)
107
Thank you OregonMuse! That's the one.
And thank you for the "extended" version. That first part is often left off.
And thank you for the "extended" version. That first part is often left off.
Posted by: teej at May 25, 2015 11:33 AM (qyZxC)
108
You hear again and again from newly naturalized citizens: Americans take for granted that in this country, you have freedom to become what you want.
Posted by: Smilin' Jackj at May 25, 2015 11:33 AM (EA+eu)
109
I think we lost it when we abandoned the commitment to a level playing field in favor of special treatment.
Posted by: Y-not at May 25, 2015 10:42 AM (RWGcK)
************************
When we went from 'equal opportunity' to 'equal outcome'.
There is no telling where equal opportunity could or would take us. That scares a lot of people, particularly Progressives
--
But also the crony capitalist types, right?
I mean, there are plenty of people on the Right who don't believe in a level playing field.
Posted by: Y-not at May 25, 2015 10:42 AM (RWGcK)
************************
When we went from 'equal opportunity' to 'equal outcome'.
There is no telling where equal opportunity could or would take us. That scares a lot of people, particularly Progressives
--
But also the crony capitalist types, right?
I mean, there are plenty of people on the Right who don't believe in a level playing field.
Posted by: Y-not at May 25, 2015 11:33 AM (RWGcK)
110
Freedom of movement (as mentioned above) and freedom of association. Choosing where you want to live and work, and with whom, and whom you wish to hire to work at a business you may have started, and where you and your children want to receive an education.
All of which are anathema to our betters, who would love for us to live in concentrated corridors along public transportation routes, and drive skittles-powered clown cars, and work in businesses that must above all reflect the national demographic and not hire according to the demands of their mission.
Freedom of movement is a BFD. Some countries have residency systems that in essence regulate internal migration.
All of which are anathema to our betters, who would love for us to live in concentrated corridors along public transportation routes, and drive skittles-powered clown cars, and work in businesses that must above all reflect the national demographic and not hire according to the demands of their mission.
Freedom of movement is a BFD. Some countries have residency systems that in essence regulate internal migration.
Posted by: All Hail Eris at May 25, 2015 11:34 AM (jR7Wy)
111
Well, "all men are created equal."
So you are saying that the Founding Fathers were liars.
Posted by: Y-not at May 25, 2015 11:30 AM (RWGcK)
----
Yes.
They were propagandists. They certainly did not believe in the equality of all men. Not even all free white men. They most certainly had no intention of giving citizenship to the majority of blacks (not done in theory until after the Civil War) or to Indians (not done until 1924).
Enlightenment sentiments expressed in a proclamation are one thing; the reality of governance and living is another.
So you are saying that the Founding Fathers were liars.
Posted by: Y-not at May 25, 2015 11:30 AM (RWGcK)
----
Yes.
They were propagandists. They certainly did not believe in the equality of all men. Not even all free white men. They most certainly had no intention of giving citizenship to the majority of blacks (not done in theory until after the Civil War) or to Indians (not done until 1924).
Enlightenment sentiments expressed in a proclamation are one thing; the reality of governance and living is another.
Posted by: RioBravo at May 25, 2015 11:34 AM (NUqwG)
112
My hometown had a large VA hospital in it so we had a lot of people in our schools from all over. Some were first generation Americans whose parents came from other countries, especially Cuba.
They did not refer to themselves as Cuban-Americans. They were Americans and proud of it.
--
Well, I'd have to ask my dad, but I am pretty sure people in his areas called themselves Irish-American, Polish-American, etc. They were certainly highly aware of their roots and of those around them. This mostly manifested itself in innocent ways, jokes about the ethnic stereotypes of their fellow Americans, but it also of course manifested itself in patronage and discrimination.
But it wasn't codified. Being an Irish-American did not guarantee you special treatment under the law, even if it did affect your daily life or treatment from individuals. That's the difference from today, I think.
They did not refer to themselves as Cuban-Americans. They were Americans and proud of it.
--
Well, I'd have to ask my dad, but I am pretty sure people in his areas called themselves Irish-American, Polish-American, etc. They were certainly highly aware of their roots and of those around them. This mostly manifested itself in innocent ways, jokes about the ethnic stereotypes of their fellow Americans, but it also of course manifested itself in patronage and discrimination.
But it wasn't codified. Being an Irish-American did not guarantee you special treatment under the law, even if it did affect your daily life or treatment from individuals. That's the difference from today, I think.
Posted by: Y-not at May 25, 2015 11:36 AM (RWGcK)
113
24 This country is in Wyle E. Coyote mode
It's okay if you don't look down.
Posted by: Grump928(c) at May 25, 2015 10:43 AM (evdj2)
And all the idiot Obama voters will be shocked when they go splat.
Nowadays, when I hear the National Anthem and America the Beautiful at ballgames, I look at the crowd and think "Land of the free and home of the brave? Yeah, right."
I think of the pioneers and emigrants who made this country, our ancestors with the balls to leave everything behind - native language, familiar surrounding, family and friends - to cross an ocean. They weren't coming over here to get on welfare. They expected their lives would be hard but were willing to risk it so their children would grow up free. Think of the people who headed West in covered wagons when it was a matter of heading into the unknown wilderness and danger.
Those tough people, who wanted nothing but the chance to carve out their own destinies - just imagine what they would think of pajama boy and mattress girl.
It's okay if you don't look down.
Posted by: Grump928(c) at May 25, 2015 10:43 AM (evdj2)
And all the idiot Obama voters will be shocked when they go splat.
Nowadays, when I hear the National Anthem and America the Beautiful at ballgames, I look at the crowd and think "Land of the free and home of the brave? Yeah, right."
I think of the pioneers and emigrants who made this country, our ancestors with the balls to leave everything behind - native language, familiar surrounding, family and friends - to cross an ocean. They weren't coming over here to get on welfare. They expected their lives would be hard but were willing to risk it so their children would grow up free. Think of the people who headed West in covered wagons when it was a matter of heading into the unknown wilderness and danger.
Those tough people, who wanted nothing but the chance to carve out their own destinies - just imagine what they would think of pajama boy and mattress girl.
Posted by: Donna &&&&&& V. (brandishing ampersands) at May 25, 2015 11:37 AM (+XMAD)
114
The Founders understood instinctually the concept of 'Tribe'... that you needed some bigger group to belong to, and identify as...
They used STATE citizenship... they all spoke of being 'of the Great State of Virginia'... or of "New York'...
The Civil War changed it so the Tribe was America itself....
But that identity is now breaking down... people no longer even identify as Hispanic Americans here.. or Mexican Americans... or African Americans... now its Mexican, or Hispanic... or Black...
They used STATE citizenship... they all spoke of being 'of the Great State of Virginia'... or of "New York'...
The Civil War changed it so the Tribe was America itself....
But that identity is now breaking down... people no longer even identify as Hispanic Americans here.. or Mexican Americans... or African Americans... now its Mexican, or Hispanic... or Black...
Posted by: BB Wolf at May 25, 2015 11:37 AM (qh617)
115
Enlightenment sentiments expressed in a proclamation are one thing; the reality of governance and living is another.
---
I guess I would just say that a "value" is more about aspirational beliefs than about daily governance.
---
I guess I would just say that a "value" is more about aspirational beliefs than about daily governance.
Posted by: Y-not at May 25, 2015 11:38 AM (RWGcK)
116
109 I mean, there are plenty of people on the Right who don't believe in a level playing field.
Posted by: Y-not at May 25, 2015 11:33 AM (RWGcK)
Depends on what you mean by the "right". A real conservative believes in a level playing field, or in the political words, "equal opportunity".
Posted by: Y-not at May 25, 2015 11:33 AM (RWGcK)
Depends on what you mean by the "right". A real conservative believes in a level playing field, or in the political words, "equal opportunity".
Posted by: Vic We Have No Party at May 25, 2015 11:38 AM (GpgJl)
Posted by: The Great White Snark at May 25, 2015 11:38 AM (LImiJ)
Posted by: teej at May 25, 2015 11:39 AM (qyZxC)
Posted by: Tammy al-Thor at May 25, 2015 11:39 AM (vEFTc)
120
The idea of citizens participating in government, whatever their station in life, is pretty fundamental to this country.
It's not supposed to be a country ruled by the Kennedys, Bushs, Romneys, Clintons, etc. It's supposed to be citizens self-ruling.
Posted by: Y-not at May 25, 2015 11:31 AM (RWGcK)
------------
They preferred a real Electoral College. So we got Washington, Adams, and Jefferson. Now we get...
It's not supposed to be a country ruled by the Kennedys, Bushs, Romneys, Clintons, etc. It's supposed to be citizens self-ruling.
Posted by: Y-not at May 25, 2015 11:31 AM (RWGcK)
------------
They preferred a real Electoral College. So we got Washington, Adams, and Jefferson. Now we get...
Posted by: RioBravo at May 25, 2015 11:39 AM (NUqwG)
121
This country is in Wyle E. Coyote mode
It's okay if you don't look down.
-
We're good at not looking down.
- Elite Journalists
It's okay if you don't look down.
-
We're good at not looking down.
- Elite Journalists
Posted by: The Great White Snark at May 25, 2015 11:40 AM (LImiJ)
122
E Plebnista
Posted by: eman at May 25, 2015 11:41 AM (MQEz6)
123
@ 11 and Kennedy Green Lighted the Unions for Public Service,
Everybody remembers the words, few remember the consequences of his actions.
Unfortunately he was followed by one of IMHO the worst traitors to hold office..
Never met a vet yet, who would not piss on his grave given the opportunity,
Everybody remembers the words, few remember the consequences of his actions.
Unfortunately he was followed by one of IMHO the worst traitors to hold office..
Never met a vet yet, who would not piss on his grave given the opportunity,
Posted by: A2 at May 25, 2015 11:41 AM (/WmRg)
124
When was the period of equal opportunity for all? 1965 to 1970?
Posted by: RioBravo at May 25, 2015 11:27 AM (NUqwG)
====================
In true Orwellian fashion, the move from equal opportunity to equal outcome was birthed when the EEOC was established in 1965, and has grown ever since.
Posted by: RioBravo at May 25, 2015 11:27 AM (NUqwG)
====================
In true Orwellian fashion, the move from equal opportunity to equal outcome was birthed when the EEOC was established in 1965, and has grown ever since.
Posted by: LBJ Arising at May 25, 2015 11:43 AM (PEgKF)
125
Enlightenment sentiments expressed in a proclamation are one thing; the reality of governance and living is another.
Indeed, and yet it matters when they are codified in law and upheld as the ideal, even when they are often broken in practice. Vice still exists even when the virtues are respected. But when the vices become the virtues, your society is sick.
Indeed, and yet it matters when they are codified in law and upheld as the ideal, even when they are often broken in practice. Vice still exists even when the virtues are respected. But when the vices become the virtues, your society is sick.
Posted by: Grump928(c) still bitter as hell at May 25, 2015 11:43 AM (evdj2)
126
What value do you think of as distinctly American?
Individual liberty.
At some point, I, umm, think, uhh, that you've got enough liberty.
Fore!
Individual liberty.
At some point, I, umm, think, uhh, that you've got enough liberty.
Fore!
Posted by: Barack Hussein Obama at May 25, 2015 11:43 AM (FcR7P)
127
I lose heart when I hear Obama speak.
Posted by: LoneStarHeeb at May 25, 2015 11:44 AM (BZAd3)
Posted by: Grump928(c) still bitter as hell at May 25, 2015 11:44 AM (evdj2)
129
Hey teej, I got another good one, and very appropriate for today:
"Posterity! you will never know how much it cost the present generation to preserve your freedom! I hope you will make a good use of it. If you do not, I shall repent in Heaven that I ever took half the pains to preserve it."
I'm grabbing all of these quotes from Adams' wiki page.
"Posterity! you will never know how much it cost the present generation to preserve your freedom! I hope you will make a good use of it. If you do not, I shall repent in Heaven that I ever took half the pains to preserve it."
I'm grabbing all of these quotes from Adams' wiki page.
Posted by: OregonMuse at May 25, 2015 11:44 AM (tiyBy)
130
I guess I would just say that a "value" is more about aspirational beliefs than about daily governance.
Posted by: Y-not at May 25, 2015 11:38 AM (RWGcK)
-----
But the issue at hand WAS daily governance. To be in the hands of 'Americans'and their legislatures and not the UK Parliament. The King was dumped because he refused to side with the colonials (though he had no real option to do so).
Their dream was not ours (modern Amreica's).
Posted by: Y-not at May 25, 2015 11:38 AM (RWGcK)
-----
But the issue at hand WAS daily governance. To be in the hands of 'Americans'and their legislatures and not the UK Parliament. The King was dumped because he refused to side with the colonials (though he had no real option to do so).
Their dream was not ours (modern Amreica's).
Posted by: RioBravo at May 25, 2015 11:44 AM (NUqwG)
131
That content of character stuff would be swell. Bark, Mooch, Billary and many others would be inside cages looking out.
Posted by: The Great White Snark at May 25, 2015 11:44 AM (LImiJ)
132
My fundamental difference with Martin Luther II is that he would have us judge men on their character; I want to judge them on their output.
I can't read mens' souls. But I can see how they behave.
So, no; I don't share his dream. And I won't share his dream. To the extent modern America demands that I do, I am a foreigner here.
I can't read mens' souls. But I can see how they behave.
So, no; I don't share his dream. And I won't share his dream. To the extent modern America demands that I do, I am a foreigner here.
Posted by: boulder terlit hobo at May 25, 2015 11:45 AM (AVEe1)
133
Kate58 @ 19: "And who gets to judge the 'content of character?' I'm not sure I've met anybody who ever admitted they'd gone off the rails.
________
Every person has a built-in gauge. It's persistent anger and displayed by griping and excuses.
I'll bet you know quite a few people who are mad all the time. They think their anger is smart and/or moral, that they're justified in being mad, and they're always looking to you and others to validate this belief. The able-bodied person on Disability and the fat person using SNAP to buy potato chips and Mountain Dew know deep down that they're not living good lives. They're misaligned with God or the Universe or both and they deny the misalignment by blaming everyone and everything and coming up with phony-baloney reasons why they're the way they are.
They're mad at the world, and at root it's because they lack character. Character leads to a life well-lived, and such a life generally leads to contentment. People with character may endure struggles and suffer disappointments but as rule these are dealt with gracefully.
(Some anger is justified. Usually, this is event-specific and manifests itself with a specific response. This isn't what I'm talking about.)
In the end, you judge the content of your own character, and if you're pissed off all the time, the rest of will know that you're falling short.
________
Every person has a built-in gauge. It's persistent anger and displayed by griping and excuses.
I'll bet you know quite a few people who are mad all the time. They think their anger is smart and/or moral, that they're justified in being mad, and they're always looking to you and others to validate this belief. The able-bodied person on Disability and the fat person using SNAP to buy potato chips and Mountain Dew know deep down that they're not living good lives. They're misaligned with God or the Universe or both and they deny the misalignment by blaming everyone and everything and coming up with phony-baloney reasons why they're the way they are.
They're mad at the world, and at root it's because they lack character. Character leads to a life well-lived, and such a life generally leads to contentment. People with character may endure struggles and suffer disappointments but as rule these are dealt with gracefully.
(Some anger is justified. Usually, this is event-specific and manifests itself with a specific response. This isn't what I'm talking about.)
In the end, you judge the content of your own character, and if you're pissed off all the time, the rest of will know that you're falling short.
Posted by: FireHorse at May 25, 2015 11:46 AM (r5Qcm)
134
127
I lose heart when I hear Obama speak.
Posted by: LoneStarHeeb at May 25, 2015 11:44 AM (BZAd3)
I lose my lunch
I lose heart when I hear Obama speak.
Posted by: LoneStarHeeb at May 25, 2015 11:44 AM (BZAd3)
I lose my lunch
Posted by: Vic We Have No Party at May 25, 2015 11:46 AM (GpgJl)
135
Transformation into a Third World shithole.
Posted by: TexasJew at May 25, 2015 11:46 AM (2E/Tt)
136
Faith triumphing over fear.
Posted by: ObjectionSustained at May 25, 2015 11:47 AM (JtErG)
137
"Neither my father or mother, grandfather or grandmother, great grandfather or great grandmother, nor any other relation that I know of, or care a farthing for, has been in England these one hundred and fifty years; so that you see I have not one drop of blood in my veins but what is American."
--from Stuff John Adams Said, Vol. 1
--from Stuff John Adams Said, Vol. 1
Posted by: OregonMuse at May 25, 2015 11:47 AM (tiyBy)
138
Don't forget to thank TR for propelling WW into the Whitehouse.
Posted by: Edmund Burke's Shade, languishing in Krazyfornia at May 25, 2015 10:46 AM (cmBvC)
And for assuring the creation of the Federal Reserve
Posted by: Edmund Burke's Shade, languishing in Krazyfornia at May 25, 2015 10:46 AM (cmBvC)
And for assuring the creation of the Federal Reserve
Posted by: Velvet Ambition at May 25, 2015 11:48 AM (R8hU8)
139
And who gets to judge the 'content of character?'
-
Who knows what evil lurks in the hearts of men? The Shadow does. Him and Bill O'Reilly.
-
Who knows what evil lurks in the hearts of men? The Shadow does. Him and Bill O'Reilly.
Posted by: The Great White Snark at May 25, 2015 11:48 AM (LImiJ)
140
Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.
.
Charles F. Thomas IV - 04-08-71 - Bin Dinh, RVN. Forever young.
.
Charles F. Thomas IV - 04-08-71 - Bin Dinh, RVN. Forever young.
Posted by: Javems at May 25, 2015 11:49 AM (ZnvRl)
141
TR was an admirable man, but a bad President.
Posted by: Grump928(c) still bitter as hell at May 25, 2015 11:49 AM (evdj2)
Posted by: teej at May 25, 2015 11:49 AM (c0BGp)
143
This excessive focus on endless pointless Minority grievances instead of focusing on freedoms and economic growth is pulling us all into the Abyss.
Posted by: TexasJew at May 25, 2015 11:49 AM (2E/Tt)
144
127
I lose heart when I hear Obama speak.
Posted by: LoneStarHeeb at May 25, 2015 11:44 AM (BZAd3)
Don't give the prick the satisfaction.
I lose heart when I hear Obama speak.
Posted by: LoneStarHeeb at May 25, 2015 11:44 AM (BZAd3)
Don't give the prick the satisfaction.
Posted by: GySgt Highway at May 25, 2015 11:50 AM (yxw0r)
145
To me, I want it to mean "anarchism," in the sense of Jeffersonian self rule, of citizens' activity in their own community to establish ground rules. I think this is the fight of the 21st century.
Posted by: NSA Commenter CRM 114 at May 25, 2015 11:50 AM (Dhdnu)
Posted by: OregonMuse at May 25, 2015 11:50 AM (tiyBy)
147
But the issue at hand WAS daily governance. To be in the hands of 'Americans'and their legislatures and not the UK Parliament. The King was dumped because he refused to side with the colonials (though he had no real option to do so).
Their dream was not ours (modern Amreica's).
--
They threw off a king and Washington intentionally and deliberately avoided becoming one.
Their dream was not ours (modern Amreica's).
--
They threw off a king and Washington intentionally and deliberately avoided becoming one.
Posted by: Y-not at May 25, 2015 11:50 AM (RWGcK)
148
I would cite "By their fruits you shall know them" but the Donks are all about fruits.
Posted by: The Great White Snark at May 25, 2015 11:51 AM (LImiJ)
149
"The consequences arising from the continual accumulation of public debts in other countries ought to admonish us to be careful to prevent their growth in our own."
--from Stuff John Adams Said, Vol. 1
--from Stuff John Adams Said, Vol. 1
Posted by: OregonMuse at May 25, 2015 11:51 AM (tiyBy)
150
What is distinctly American? A distinctly poor taste in shoes.
Posted by: bour3 at May 25, 2015 11:51 AM (5x3+2)
151
I mean, there are plenty of people on the Right who don't believe in a level playing field.
Posted by: Y-not at May 25, 2015 11:33 AM
I agree.
There has been an unfortunate tendency among some "conservatives" to see all on the left as some kind of mass "enemy," who must be removed from the national equation (or at least neutralized) if the country is to survive. This is, IMO, as knee-jerk and false an attitude as the lefty media/political view of those on the right.
It is never a good policy to silence an entire set of beliefs. Power shifts, and circumstances change. Why make enemies among those who believe differently, yet are equally patriotic, law-abiding and sincere? Such people exist, and on both ends of the political spectrum.
What is necessary is to personalize the enemy. Choom Boy and his myrmidons, Bitch and Boner, Reid and Pelosi are enemies. Their beliefs are entirely foreign to the laws and basic concept of the United States.
Some of the people who have unwittingly aided and abetted them -- by voting for them or, in the case of the media consuming their products -- are loyal (if stupid) Americans.
Much as I rail against spineless eunuchs like Poppin' Fresh and the wine-sipping surrender monkeys at NRO, I do not see them as enemies. Just dupes who should be marginalized. Take away their false gods, and they would be as meaningless in reality as they are in my perception.
Save the ammunition (just for the record, that's just a figure of speech) for the real destroyers.
Posted by: Y-not at May 25, 2015 11:33 AM
I agree.
There has been an unfortunate tendency among some "conservatives" to see all on the left as some kind of mass "enemy," who must be removed from the national equation (or at least neutralized) if the country is to survive. This is, IMO, as knee-jerk and false an attitude as the lefty media/political view of those on the right.
It is never a good policy to silence an entire set of beliefs. Power shifts, and circumstances change. Why make enemies among those who believe differently, yet are equally patriotic, law-abiding and sincere? Such people exist, and on both ends of the political spectrum.
What is necessary is to personalize the enemy. Choom Boy and his myrmidons, Bitch and Boner, Reid and Pelosi are enemies. Their beliefs are entirely foreign to the laws and basic concept of the United States.
Some of the people who have unwittingly aided and abetted them -- by voting for them or, in the case of the media consuming their products -- are loyal (if stupid) Americans.
Much as I rail against spineless eunuchs like Poppin' Fresh and the wine-sipping surrender monkeys at NRO, I do not see them as enemies. Just dupes who should be marginalized. Take away their false gods, and they would be as meaningless in reality as they are in my perception.
Save the ammunition (just for the record, that's just a figure of speech) for the real destroyers.
Posted by: MrScribbler at May 25, 2015 11:52 AM (P8YHq)
152
Don't forget to thank TR for propelling WW into the Whitehouse.
Posted by: Edmund Burke's Shade, languishing in Krazyfornia at May 25, 2015 10:46 AM (cmBvC)
And for assuring the creation of the Federal Reserve
Posted by: Velvet Ambition at May 25, 2015 11:48 AM (R8hU
Hrm, I think we all know what ELSE happened during the Roosevelt regime.
Hint: 17 Dec. 1903.
(chemtrails!)
Posted by: Edmund Burke's Shade, languishing in Krazyfornia at May 25, 2015 10:46 AM (cmBvC)
And for assuring the creation of the Federal Reserve
Posted by: Velvet Ambition at May 25, 2015 11:48 AM (R8hU
Hrm, I think we all know what ELSE happened during the Roosevelt regime.
Hint: 17 Dec. 1903.
(chemtrails!)
Posted by: Snoodling World Champion 1997 at May 25, 2015 11:52 AM (Q819Q)
153
"If I were an atheist, and believed in blind eternal fate, I should still believe that fate had ordained the Jews to be the most essential instrument for civilizing the nations."
--from Stuff John Adams Said, Vol. 2
--from Stuff John Adams Said, Vol. 2
Posted by: OregonMuse at May 25, 2015 11:53 AM (tiyBy)
154
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal,
that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights,
that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That
to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving
their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any
Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of
the People to alter or to abolish it...
Its all right there for me.
that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights,
that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That
to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving
their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any
Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of
the People to alter or to abolish it...
Its all right there for me.
Posted by: Guy Mohawk at May 25, 2015 11:54 AM (ODxAs)
155
I want to thank the Horde that is trying to help me succeed in the old American way, by earning it.
So far, during the Free period on Amazon, The Princess Who Caused Fear has moved 72 units. Thus making it #22 in the Kindle story for Fantasy Short Stories + Anthologies.
Can still download it for free today.
And I keep having fun writing Combat Meido Alice which is now almost 7,700 words and growing.
So far, during the Free period on Amazon, The Princess Who Caused Fear has moved 72 units. Thus making it #22 in the Kindle story for Fantasy Short Stories + Anthologies.
Can still download it for free today.
And I keep having fun writing Combat Meido Alice which is now almost 7,700 words and growing.
Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at May 25, 2015 11:55 AM (V8fhv)
156
I was in Austria around '82 and went through a tour of the Habsburg Dutchy in Vienna. Somehow the tour got derailed into a discussion of the Nazis and the tour guide stopped and gave a little unrehearsed speech.
He gave a stinging retort to the Liberals in the group saying that the Americans had destroyed Europe by angrily explaining (in German) that the United States had saved the World from communists and fascists that were not even invading its own territory. He asked if anyone in history had ever created an "Empire" to save the World and then refused to occupy all the land it fought for. He was mad. It wa my first time in Austria and I was surprised that people were still grateful. My father had nearly died just a few miles away. That's us: Clumsy but well meaning sheepdogs that just want everyone to have what we have (or had).
He gave a stinging retort to the Liberals in the group saying that the Americans had destroyed Europe by angrily explaining (in German) that the United States had saved the World from communists and fascists that were not even invading its own territory. He asked if anyone in history had ever created an "Empire" to save the World and then refused to occupy all the land it fought for. He was mad. It wa my first time in Austria and I was surprised that people were still grateful. My father had nearly died just a few miles away. That's us: Clumsy but well meaning sheepdogs that just want everyone to have what we have (or had).
Posted by: Daybrother at May 25, 2015 11:56 AM (8OO+s)
157
"My parents grew up in New England, as did my husband's parents. Both grew up in towns that had very distinctive ethnic identities. There were Polish neighborhoods, Irish, Italian, etc.
Those folks most definitely kept their immigrant identities. (My dad is first generation American from Irish immigrants. My husband's grandmothers were French-Canadian and Italian, respectively, and both spoke their native languages at home.) So I don't know about how new the "hyphenated" thing was.
But they were Americans. They saw themselves as Americans, with an ethnic identity. "
Good observation, Y-Not and true to my own experience as well.
Those folks most definitely kept their immigrant identities. (My dad is first generation American from Irish immigrants. My husband's grandmothers were French-Canadian and Italian, respectively, and both spoke their native languages at home.) So I don't know about how new the "hyphenated" thing was.
But they were Americans. They saw themselves as Americans, with an ethnic identity. "
Good observation, Y-Not and true to my own experience as well.
Posted by: Donna &&&&&& V. (brandishing ampersands) at May 25, 2015 11:57 AM (+XMAD)
158
Its all right there for me. Posted by: Guy Mohawk at May 25, 2015 11:54 AM
Me, too.
And the last 24 words should be tattooed on the foreheads of Choom Boy and Congress.
Me, too.
And the last 24 words should be tattooed on the foreheads of Choom Boy and Congress.
Posted by: MrScribbler at May 25, 2015 11:57 AM (P8YHq)
159
Pretty sure MLK, a God-fearing man, was expecting his fellow Americans to emulate the Almighty, who most assuredly judges us by the content of our character.
It really saddens me that peoples' frustrations with how the Civil Rights movement evolved has blinded them to the fundamentally American meaning of MLK's words.
I will confess that part of what got me thinking about this stuff is a reaction to a commenter last week who railed against the use of private charity to give students from the wrong side of the tracks the opportunity to attend his kid's ritzy private school. That attitude, to me, is fundamentally unAmerican. The idea that our paths are laid out for us by the circumstances of our birth, whether it be economic or skin color, is something I utterly reject.
It really saddens me that peoples' frustrations with how the Civil Rights movement evolved has blinded them to the fundamentally American meaning of MLK's words.
I will confess that part of what got me thinking about this stuff is a reaction to a commenter last week who railed against the use of private charity to give students from the wrong side of the tracks the opportunity to attend his kid's ritzy private school. That attitude, to me, is fundamentally unAmerican. The idea that our paths are laid out for us by the circumstances of our birth, whether it be economic or skin color, is something I utterly reject.
Posted by: Y-not at May 25, 2015 11:57 AM (RWGcK)
160
This excessive focus on endless pointless Minority grievances instead of focusing on freedoms and economic growth is pulling us all into the Abyss.
Posted by: TexasJew at May 25, 2015 11:49 AM (2E/Tt)
---
Has there ever been a time with more opportunity and fewer barriers to achievement? And yet there's endless bitching about injustice.
Things will be different when I'm elected Imperatrix For Life, let me tell you!
Posted by: TexasJew at May 25, 2015 11:49 AM (2E/Tt)
---
Has there ever been a time with more opportunity and fewer barriers to achievement? And yet there's endless bitching about injustice.
Things will be different when I'm elected Imperatrix For Life, let me tell you!
Posted by: All Hail Eris at May 25, 2015 11:58 AM (jR7Wy)
161
49
I don't think Wilson was able to get a lot of his crap through congress the way FDR and LBJ did. So there was not near as much damage to the country.
Posted by: Vic We Have No Party at May 25, 2015 10:56 AM (GpgJl)
True, but he played a big role in starting the ball rolling. He was thoroughly Progressive, and had a sneering contempt for the Constitution and the idea of self-government. He believed that the "masses" needed to be led by highly educated experts, like himself.
I don't think Wilson was able to get a lot of his crap through congress the way FDR and LBJ did. So there was not near as much damage to the country.
Posted by: Vic We Have No Party at May 25, 2015 10:56 AM (GpgJl)
True, but he played a big role in starting the ball rolling. He was thoroughly Progressive, and had a sneering contempt for the Constitution and the idea of self-government. He believed that the "masses" needed to be led by highly educated experts, like himself.
Posted by: rickl at May 25, 2015 11:59 AM (sdi6R)
162
Things will be different when I'm elected Imperatrix For Life, let me tell you!
For one thing the EEOC and EPA will receive the Stompy Boot of Eradication. Am I right?
Ave Imperatix Eris!
For one thing the EEOC and EPA will receive the Stompy Boot of Eradication. Am I right?
Ave Imperatix Eris!
Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at May 25, 2015 12:00 PM (V8fhv)
163
For what it's worth I stand with you Y-not on the meaning of his words.
Also on people giving for such a cause as sending a child to a better school.
Oh, and gardening.
Also on people giving for such a cause as sending a child to a better school.
Oh, and gardening.
Posted by: teej at May 25, 2015 12:04 PM (qyZxC)
164
He believed that the "masses" needed to be led by highly educated experts, like himself.
Posted by: rickl at May 25, 2015 11:59 AM
You're right. But that doesn't make him particularly unusual in D.C. (See: Boy, Choom; Clinton, Bubba; Carter, Peanut Man; Kennedy, Jack.)
Funny thing is, WW was no "expert." He was a college professor, FFS. Not an engineer, economist, etc.... In a way, that's no different from governance by the wealthy (FDR, JFK, etc.) or Lifetime Politicos (Nixon, Truman, etc).
But his premise was still badly flawed. We don't need to be "led" by self-important "educated" people any more than hate-filled AA thugs.
Posted by: rickl at May 25, 2015 11:59 AM
You're right. But that doesn't make him particularly unusual in D.C. (See: Boy, Choom; Clinton, Bubba; Carter, Peanut Man; Kennedy, Jack.)
Funny thing is, WW was no "expert." He was a college professor, FFS. Not an engineer, economist, etc.... In a way, that's no different from governance by the wealthy (FDR, JFK, etc.) or Lifetime Politicos (Nixon, Truman, etc).
But his premise was still badly flawed. We don't need to be "led" by self-important "educated" people any more than hate-filled AA thugs.
Posted by: MrScribbler at May 25, 2015 12:05 PM (P8YHq)
165
Uh-oh.
Posted by: teej at May 25, 2015 12:06 PM (qyZxC)
166
Maybe its inborn or something, but I never had the thought or notion to want to control other people, yet there are so many on the Left that want to do just that.
It is one thing that I am amazed by, to spend your life trying to subjugate other people.
Maybe its inborn or something, but I never had the thought or notion to want to control other people, yet there are so many on the Left that want to do just that.
It is one thing that I am amazed by, to spend your life trying to subjugate other people.
Posted by: Guy Mohawk at May 25, 2015 12:06 PM (ODxAs)
167
"I must study politics and war, that our sons may have liberty to study mathematics and philosophy."
(...and tell fart jokes on the internet)
--from Stuff John Adams Said, Vol. 3
(...and tell fart jokes on the internet)
--from Stuff John Adams Said, Vol. 3
Posted by: OregonMuse at May 25, 2015 12:06 PM (tiyBy)
168
Everyone keeps referring to me as 50 lbs. I am 30 lbs tops, and if I weighed 50 lbs the bitch would look like a crossfit girl.
Posted by: Emma's Mattress at May 25, 2015 12:06 PM (+4uXG)
169
Whew. Willowed, I thought I was.
Posted by: teej at May 25, 2015 12:07 PM (qyZxC)
170
Here's something uniquely American. I just got an e-mail from my local gun-o-rama informing me that It's Glock Day! Grand Opening Sale! Half-Off on Night Sights with Free Installation!
It would make many tyrants pee in their silken Underoos to think of an armed populace.
It would make many tyrants pee in their silken Underoos to think of an armed populace.
Posted by: All Hail Eris at May 25, 2015 12:08 PM (jR7Wy)
171
It would make many tyrants pee in their silken Underoos to think of an armed populace.
Posted by: All Hail Eris at May 25, 2015 12:08 PM
Yeah, and at least one such tyrant is right here in the USA.
Posted by: All Hail Eris at May 25, 2015 12:08 PM
Yeah, and at least one such tyrant is right here in the USA.
Posted by: MrScribbler at May 25, 2015 12:09 PM (P8YHq)
172
TY teej.
Posted by: Y-not on the phone at May 25, 2015 12:09 PM (Z0Bd1)
173
Well, in the yellow so I'd best plug in and get something done for a bit.
Thank you all for a fine thread.
Thank you all for a fine thread.
Posted by: teej at May 25, 2015 12:10 PM (qyZxC)
174
I will confess that part of what got me thinking
about this stuff is a reaction to a commenter last week who railed
against the use of private charity to give students from the wrong side
of the tracks the opportunity to attend his kid's ritzy private school.
That attitude, to me, is fundamentally unAmerican. The idea that our
paths are laid out for us by the circumstances of our birth, whether it
be economic or skin color, is something I utterly reject.
Posted by: Y-not at May 25, 2015 11:57 AM (RWGcK)
I knew I wasn't alone. God bless.
about this stuff is a reaction to a commenter last week who railed
against the use of private charity to give students from the wrong side
of the tracks the opportunity to attend his kid's ritzy private school.
That attitude, to me, is fundamentally unAmerican. The idea that our
paths are laid out for us by the circumstances of our birth, whether it
be economic or skin color, is something I utterly reject.
Posted by: Y-not at May 25, 2015 11:57 AM (RWGcK)
I knew I wasn't alone. God bless.
Posted by: Bob's House of Flannel Shirts and Wallet Chains at May 25, 2015 12:11 PM (yxw0r)
175
sock off
Posted by: BourbonChicken at May 25, 2015 12:11 PM (+4uXG)
176
He asked if anyone in history had ever created an "Empire" to save the World and then refused to occupy all the land it fought for. He was mad. It was my first time in Austria and I was surprised that people were still grateful.
Posted by: Daybrother at May 25, 2015 11:56 AM (8OO+s)
---------------------------------
All true and somewhat unique. Though it is rare for any empire to keep "all the land it fought for". Usually some. That is what peace treaties determine.
The argument has been made that the US did establish an 'informal empire' of control. A nice thought but probably just a progressive wet dream/nightmare.
What is clear is that the United States did 'impose' the Bretton Woods system on the non-Soviet world at the end of WWII.
The United States has also stationed more military personnel around the world after WWII than Britain did at the height of Empire (exclusive of years of global war).
Which system of 'empire' is wiser or more beneficial to the world and to the imperial center can be and has been debated.
Posted by: Daybrother at May 25, 2015 11:56 AM (8OO+s)
---------------------------------
All true and somewhat unique. Though it is rare for any empire to keep "all the land it fought for". Usually some. That is what peace treaties determine.
The argument has been made that the US did establish an 'informal empire' of control. A nice thought but probably just a progressive wet dream/nightmare.
What is clear is that the United States did 'impose' the Bretton Woods system on the non-Soviet world at the end of WWII.
The United States has also stationed more military personnel around the world after WWII than Britain did at the height of Empire (exclusive of years of global war).
Which system of 'empire' is wiser or more beneficial to the world and to the imperial center can be and has been debated.
Posted by: RioBravo at May 25, 2015 12:11 PM (NUqwG)
177
Hey All Hail Eris, how goes the screenplay for Polterschwarnstucker? Will there be guns of various calibers? 
Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at May 25, 2015 12:11 PM (V8fhv)
178
It would make many tyrants pee in their silken Underoos to think of an armed populace.
Posted by: All Hail Eris at May 25, 2015 12:08 PM
Yeah, and at least one such tyrant is right here in the USA.
Posted by: MrScribbler
Who can say? Maybe the secret legislation that is the secret trade bill includes a secret rider banning individual possession of light arms among the 12 nations.
Posted by: All Hail Eris at May 25, 2015 12:08 PM
Yeah, and at least one such tyrant is right here in the USA.
Posted by: MrScribbler
Who can say? Maybe the secret legislation that is the secret trade bill includes a secret rider banning individual possession of light arms among the 12 nations.
Posted by: Daybrother at May 25, 2015 12:12 PM (8OO+s)
179
Hmm, the various reps in the TX House live feed I'm watching are talking about their constituents who've died in the flooding. A family of four was washed away with their house in Wimberley, and a girl returning from her prom died at a low water crossing near Devine.
Posted by: stace at May 25, 2015 12:12 PM (CoX6k)
180
For one thing the EEOC and EPA will receive the Stompy Boot of Eradication. Am I right?
Ave Imperatix Eris!
Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at May 25, 2015 12:00 PM (V8fhv)
---
Your place in my cabal, uh, cabinet is assured, Anna!
And yes, I have a pen and a phone, and they will be eliminated in die una.
Ave Imperatix Eris!
Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at May 25, 2015 12:00 PM (V8fhv)
---
Your place in my cabal, uh, cabinet is assured, Anna!
And yes, I have a pen and a phone, and they will be eliminated in die una.
Posted by: All Hail Eris at May 25, 2015 12:12 PM (jR7Wy)
181
I just went out and raised my flag to full staff.
Does anybody know why we only fly it at half-staff until noon on Memorial Day? It's the only time that is done. Every other occasion to fly it at half-staff, it stays that way all day.
Does anybody know why we only fly it at half-staff until noon on Memorial Day? It's the only time that is done. Every other occasion to fly it at half-staff, it stays that way all day.
Posted by: rickl at May 25, 2015 12:12 PM (sdi6R)
182
I usually just post this on Memorial Day, but last month did so on the anniversary of our pull-out from Viet Nam. I do not want it to become a tedious thing for others, and yet today is Memorial Day, and it is incumbent upon me to post it again.
Friends, classmates, brothers in arms:
Classmates, friends, and brothers-in-arms.
I do not forget, I will never forget.
-------------------
ROBERT NELSON MORDEN
PFC - E2 - Marine Corps - Regular
Length of service 0 years
His tour began on Dec 19, 1967
Casualty was on Feb 8, 1968
In QUANG TRI, SOUTH VIETNAM
HOSTILE, GROUND CASUALTY
MULTIPLE FRAGMENTATION WOUNDS
Body was recovered
--------------------------------
LLOYD WHITFIELD MOORE
HN - E3 - Navy - Regular
Length of service 1 years
His tour began on Jan 15, 1968
Casualty was on Feb 25, 1968
In QUANG TRI, SOUTH VIETNAM
HOSTILE, GROUND CASUALTY
GUN, SMALL ARMS FIRE
Body was recovered
---------------------------------
RICHARD MICHAEL CAMPBELL
SGT - E5 - Army - Selective Service
9th Infantry Division
Length of service 1 years
His tour began on Apr 2, 1968
Casualty was on May 7, 1968
In GIA DINH, SOUTH VIETNAM
HOSTILE, GROUND CASUALTY
DROWNED, SUFFOCATED
Body was recovered
---------------------------------
CRAIG PHILIP AVERILL
CPL - E4 - Army - Regular
101st Airborne Division
Length of service 1 years
His tour began on Jun 12, 1967
Casualty was on Mar 26, 1968
In THUA THIEN, SOUTH VIETNAM
Hostile, died of wounds, GROUND CASUALTY
MULTIPLE FRAGMENTATION WOUNDS
Body was recovered
---------------------------------
GLENN BRANSON HAINES JR
PFC - E3 - Army - Selective Service
18th Eng Bde
Length of service 0 years
His tour began on Nov 26, 1968
Casualty was on Mar 6, 1969
In , SOUTH VIETNAM
Non-Hostile, died of illness/injury, GROUND CASUALTY
ACCIDENTAL SELF-DESTRUCTION
Body was recovered
--------------------------------
JOE WOFFORD EUBANKS
CAPT - O3 - Army - Regular
1st AVN BDE
His tour began on Nov 13, 1971
Casualty was on Jun 2, 1972
In PLEIKU, SOUTH VIETNAM
HOSTILE, HELICOPTER - CREW
AIR LOSS, CRASH ON LAND
Body was recovered
"Here they lie, never to hope, never to pray, never to live, never to heal, never to laugh, never to cry.." - Ronald Reagan.
His words, but my sentiment.
Friends, classmates, brothers in arms:
Classmates, friends, and brothers-in-arms.
I do not forget, I will never forget.
-------------------
ROBERT NELSON MORDEN
PFC - E2 - Marine Corps - Regular
Length of service 0 years
His tour began on Dec 19, 1967
Casualty was on Feb 8, 1968
In QUANG TRI, SOUTH VIETNAM
HOSTILE, GROUND CASUALTY
MULTIPLE FRAGMENTATION WOUNDS
Body was recovered
--------------------------------
LLOYD WHITFIELD MOORE
HN - E3 - Navy - Regular
Length of service 1 years
His tour began on Jan 15, 1968
Casualty was on Feb 25, 1968
In QUANG TRI, SOUTH VIETNAM
HOSTILE, GROUND CASUALTY
GUN, SMALL ARMS FIRE
Body was recovered
---------------------------------
RICHARD MICHAEL CAMPBELL
SGT - E5 - Army - Selective Service
9th Infantry Division
Length of service 1 years
His tour began on Apr 2, 1968
Casualty was on May 7, 1968
In GIA DINH, SOUTH VIETNAM
HOSTILE, GROUND CASUALTY
DROWNED, SUFFOCATED
Body was recovered
---------------------------------
CRAIG PHILIP AVERILL
CPL - E4 - Army - Regular
101st Airborne Division
Length of service 1 years
His tour began on Jun 12, 1967
Casualty was on Mar 26, 1968
In THUA THIEN, SOUTH VIETNAM
Hostile, died of wounds, GROUND CASUALTY
MULTIPLE FRAGMENTATION WOUNDS
Body was recovered
---------------------------------
GLENN BRANSON HAINES JR
PFC - E3 - Army - Selective Service
18th Eng Bde
Length of service 0 years
His tour began on Nov 26, 1968
Casualty was on Mar 6, 1969
In , SOUTH VIETNAM
Non-Hostile, died of illness/injury, GROUND CASUALTY
ACCIDENTAL SELF-DESTRUCTION
Body was recovered
--------------------------------
JOE WOFFORD EUBANKS
CAPT - O3 - Army - Regular
1st AVN BDE
His tour began on Nov 13, 1971
Casualty was on Jun 2, 1972
In PLEIKU, SOUTH VIETNAM
HOSTILE, HELICOPTER - CREW
AIR LOSS, CRASH ON LAND
Body was recovered
"Here they lie, never to hope, never to pray, never to live, never to heal, never to laugh, never to cry.." - Ronald Reagan.
His words, but my sentiment.
Posted by: Mike Hammer, etc., etc. at May 25, 2015 12:15 PM (QyBQv)
183
Well said, MrScribbler @ 151.
Senator Moynihan was about as liberal as there was during his time. I voted against him whenever I could and thank God now for him and his service to our country. Bernie Sanders is a self-described socialist, for cryin' out loud, yet i don't see him as an enemy.
Really: If it weren't for sincere, well-meaning, patriotic liberals and socialists (and they do exist) who would keep *us* in check?
Senator Moynihan was about as liberal as there was during his time. I voted against him whenever I could and thank God now for him and his service to our country. Bernie Sanders is a self-described socialist, for cryin' out loud, yet i don't see him as an enemy.
Really: If it weren't for sincere, well-meaning, patriotic liberals and socialists (and they do exist) who would keep *us* in check?
Posted by: FireHorse at May 25, 2015 12:16 PM (lHZsI)
184
181 Does anybody know why we only fly it at half-staff
until noon on Memorial Day? It's the only time that is done. Every
other occasion to fly it at half-staff, it stays that way all day.
Posted by: rickl at May 25, 2015 12:12 PM (sdi6R
I would surmise it is because Memorial Day is supposed to be a day of observance for fallen soldiers.
until noon on Memorial Day? It's the only time that is done. Every
other occasion to fly it at half-staff, it stays that way all day.
Posted by: rickl at May 25, 2015 12:12 PM (sdi6R
I would surmise it is because Memorial Day is supposed to be a day of observance for fallen soldiers.
Posted by: Vic We Have No Party at May 25, 2015 12:17 PM (GpgJl)
185
166
Maybe its inborn or something, but I never had the thought or notion to want to control other people, yet there are so many on the Left that want to do just that.
It is one thing that I am amazed by, to spend your life trying to subjugate other people.
Posted by: Guy Mohawk at May 25, 2015 12:06 PM (ODxAs)
"Political tags - such as royalist, communist, democrat, populist, fascist, liberal, conservative, and so forth - are never basic criteria. The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire."
~Robert A. Heinlein
Maybe its inborn or something, but I never had the thought or notion to want to control other people, yet there are so many on the Left that want to do just that.
It is one thing that I am amazed by, to spend your life trying to subjugate other people.
Posted by: Guy Mohawk at May 25, 2015 12:06 PM (ODxAs)
"Political tags - such as royalist, communist, democrat, populist, fascist, liberal, conservative, and so forth - are never basic criteria. The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire."
~Robert A. Heinlein
Posted by: rickl at May 25, 2015 12:17 PM (sdi6R)
186
However, on Memorial Day, the U.S. flag
only flies at half-staff for the first half of the day, and then is
raised to full height from noon to sundown. This unique custom honors
the war dead for the morning, and living veterans for the rest of the
day.
only flies at half-staff for the first half of the day, and then is
raised to full height from noon to sundown. This unique custom honors
the war dead for the morning, and living veterans for the rest of the
day.
Posted by: Guy Mohawk at May 25, 2015 12:17 PM (ODxAs)
187
rickl @ 181 -
From Wikipedia:
The half-staff position remembers the more than one million men and women who gave their lives in service of their country. At noon, their memory is raised by the living, who resolve not to let their sacrifice be in vain, but to rise up in their stead and continue the fight for liberty and justice for all.
From Wikipedia:
The half-staff position remembers the more than one million men and women who gave their lives in service of their country. At noon, their memory is raised by the living, who resolve not to let their sacrifice be in vain, but to rise up in their stead and continue the fight for liberty and justice for all.
Posted by: FireHorse at May 25, 2015 12:19 PM (lHZsI)
188
Americans have traditionally enjoyed poking sharp sticks in the eyes of "the authorities", being just disrespectful enough to annoy "the man" w/o getting stomped for it.
Our soldiers have long shared the same attitude, which I think a very "American" trait.
My favorite example involves the radio station American troops set up for the Armed Forces Desert Network in Saudi, after the first Gulf War.
The story goes, when the station went live, the first music they played was the Clash's "Rock the Casbah":
A sample of the lyrics:
The shareef don't like it
Rockin' the Casbah
Rock the Casbah
The shareef don't like it
Rockin' the Casbah
Rock the Casbah
By order of the prophet
We ban that boogie sound
Degenerate the faithful
With that crazy Casbah sound
But the Bedouin they brought out
The electric camel drum
The local guitar picker
Got his guitar picking thumb
As soon as the shareef
Had cleared the square
They began to wail
The shareef don't like it
Rockin' the Casbah
Rock the Casbah
The shareef don't like it
Rockin' the Casbah
Rock the Casbah
Now the king told the boogie men
You have to let that raga drop
The oil down the desert way
Has been shakin' to the top
The sheik he drove his Cadillac
He went a' cruisnin' down the ville
The muezzin was a' standing
On the radiator grille
The shareef don't like it
Rockin' the Casbah
Rock the Casbah
The shareef don't like it
Rockin' the Casbah
Rock the Casbah
By order of the prophet
We ban that boogie sound
Degenerate the faithful
With that crazy Casbah sound
But the Bedouin they brought out
The electric camel drum
The local guitar picker
Got his guitar picking thumb
As soon as the shareef
Had cleared the square
They began to wail
The shareef don't like it
Rockin' the Casbah
Rock the Casbah
The shareef don't like it
Rockin' the Casbah
Rock the Casbah
Now over at the temple
Oh! They really pack 'em in
The in crowd say it's cool
To dig this chanting thing
But as the wind changed direction
The temple band took five
The crowd caught a wiff
Of that crazy Casbah jive
The king called up his jet fighters
He said you better earn your pay
Drop your bombs between the minarets
Down the Casbah way
As soon as the shareef was
Chauffeured outta there
The jet pilots tuned to
The cockpit radio blare
As soon as the shareef was
Outta their hair
The jet pilots wailed
The shareef don't like it
Rockin' the Casbah
Rock the Casbah
The shareef don't like it
Rockin' the Casbah
Rock the Casbah
He thinks it's not kosher
Fundamentally he can't take it.
You know he really hates it.
****
As Instapundit would say:
heh
Here's the video on YouTube:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bJ9r8LMU9bQ
Our soldiers have long shared the same attitude, which I think a very "American" trait.
My favorite example involves the radio station American troops set up for the Armed Forces Desert Network in Saudi, after the first Gulf War.
The story goes, when the station went live, the first music they played was the Clash's "Rock the Casbah":
A sample of the lyrics:
The shareef don't like it
Rockin' the Casbah
Rock the Casbah
The shareef don't like it
Rockin' the Casbah
Rock the Casbah
By order of the prophet
We ban that boogie sound
Degenerate the faithful
With that crazy Casbah sound
But the Bedouin they brought out
The electric camel drum
The local guitar picker
Got his guitar picking thumb
As soon as the shareef
Had cleared the square
They began to wail
The shareef don't like it
Rockin' the Casbah
Rock the Casbah
The shareef don't like it
Rockin' the Casbah
Rock the Casbah
Now the king told the boogie men
You have to let that raga drop
The oil down the desert way
Has been shakin' to the top
The sheik he drove his Cadillac
He went a' cruisnin' down the ville
The muezzin was a' standing
On the radiator grille
The shareef don't like it
Rockin' the Casbah
Rock the Casbah
The shareef don't like it
Rockin' the Casbah
Rock the Casbah
By order of the prophet
We ban that boogie sound
Degenerate the faithful
With that crazy Casbah sound
But the Bedouin they brought out
The electric camel drum
The local guitar picker
Got his guitar picking thumb
As soon as the shareef
Had cleared the square
They began to wail
The shareef don't like it
Rockin' the Casbah
Rock the Casbah
The shareef don't like it
Rockin' the Casbah
Rock the Casbah
Now over at the temple
Oh! They really pack 'em in
The in crowd say it's cool
To dig this chanting thing
But as the wind changed direction
The temple band took five
The crowd caught a wiff
Of that crazy Casbah jive
The king called up his jet fighters
He said you better earn your pay
Drop your bombs between the minarets
Down the Casbah way
As soon as the shareef was
Chauffeured outta there
The jet pilots tuned to
The cockpit radio blare
As soon as the shareef was
Outta their hair
The jet pilots wailed
The shareef don't like it
Rockin' the Casbah
Rock the Casbah
The shareef don't like it
Rockin' the Casbah
Rock the Casbah
He thinks it's not kosher
Fundamentally he can't take it.
You know he really hates it.
****
As Instapundit would say:
heh
Here's the video on YouTube:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bJ9r8LMU9bQ
Posted by: Zombie Tom Paine at May 25, 2015 12:21 PM (FkgZk)
189
Really: If it weren't for sincere, well-meaning, patriotic liberals and socialists (and they do exist) who would keep *us* in check?
The self-governing voters. I reject the idea that we need liars, thieves and murders to 'keep us in check'. There are no patriotic liberals (in the modern sense) or socialists.
The self-governing voters. I reject the idea that we need liars, thieves and murders to 'keep us in check'. There are no patriotic liberals (in the modern sense) or socialists.
Posted by: Grump928(c) still bitter as hell at May 25, 2015 12:21 PM (evdj2)
190
Which system of 'empire' is wiser or more beneficial to the world and to the imperial center can be and has been debated.
Posted by: RioBravo
----
Of course his point was we invaded Normandy but did not make it the 49th State etc. etc. The occupation included putting bases around the World to keep the beaten Nations honest and not to collect taxes or place our governors in charge. We were aggressive in business mostly because we were the only business left standing. Our imperialism came from our culture; the culture that drove us to go to war instead of dealing. Saving the World is messy and not easy. Mistakes were made. It appears we are no longer in that business anyhow and are now surrendering proactively to China, Iran, Islam, etc.
Posted by: RioBravo
----
Of course his point was we invaded Normandy but did not make it the 49th State etc. etc. The occupation included putting bases around the World to keep the beaten Nations honest and not to collect taxes or place our governors in charge. We were aggressive in business mostly because we were the only business left standing. Our imperialism came from our culture; the culture that drove us to go to war instead of dealing. Saving the World is messy and not easy. Mistakes were made. It appears we are no longer in that business anyhow and are now surrendering proactively to China, Iran, Islam, etc.
Posted by: Daybrother at May 25, 2015 12:22 PM (8OO+s)
191
Optimism, still.
Posted by: furious at May 25, 2015 12:22 PM (8lw4l)
Posted by: andycanuck at May 25, 2015 12:24 PM (kivUY)
193
My idea of what it means to be an American seem to be far different than what our "betters" in the MSM, academia, Hollywood, government, and corporate boardrooms think it is..
Oh, and frighteningly close to half the electorate, who think that being an American means free shit and shutting up "hate speech"
Oh, and frighteningly close to half the electorate, who think that being an American means free shit and shutting up "hate speech"
Posted by: kbdabear at May 25, 2015 12:25 PM (GrXXa)
194
Grump928(c) @ 189:
"I reject the idea that we need liars, thieves and murders to 'keep us in check'."
"There are no patriotic liberals (in the modern sense) or socialists."
< I respectfully disagree, though I'll grant that they're rare.
"I reject the idea that we need liars, thieves and murders to 'keep us in check'."
"There are no patriotic liberals (in the modern sense) or socialists."
< I respectfully disagree, though I'll grant that they're rare.
Posted by: FireHorse at May 25, 2015 12:25 PM (lHZsI)
195
Exactly DayBrother; unlike Cyrus or Alexander or Imperial Rome Pax Americana never set up a system of permanent governors while taxing the locals. Instead the US did things like the Marshall Plan, which not only helped ward off the Soviets, but helped create the industries that would later compete with American industries.
Americans are a bunch of very weird 'conquerors' that the West hating Left never dares acknowledge.
Americans are a bunch of very weird 'conquerors' that the West hating Left never dares acknowledge.
Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at May 25, 2015 12:25 PM (V8fhv)
196
Of course his point was we invaded Normandy but did not make it the 49th State etc. etc.
Posted by: Daybrother at May 25, 2015 12:22 PM (8OO+s)
------
Understood and I was not intending to argue against that valid point and the sentiment behind it.
I was just pointing out that we did pursue our interests in other ways. More importantly, not all the 'beneficiaries' in the world viewed our 'virtual empire' as a benevolent thing and with some justification.
Posted by: Daybrother at May 25, 2015 12:22 PM (8OO+s)
------
Understood and I was not intending to argue against that valid point and the sentiment behind it.
I was just pointing out that we did pursue our interests in other ways. More importantly, not all the 'beneficiaries' in the world viewed our 'virtual empire' as a benevolent thing and with some justification.
Posted by: RioBravo at May 25, 2015 12:27 PM (NUqwG)
197
(Don't know what happened at 194. My expression of agreement with MrScribbler disappeared. Maybe we're both wrong and the Universe made the correction. Or maybe we're both right and The Man is trying to silence me.)
Posted by: FireHorse at May 25, 2015 12:28 PM (lHZsI)
198
Americans are a bunch of very weird 'conquerors' that the West hating Left never dares acknowledge.
Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at May 25, 2015 12:25 PM (V8fhv)
-----------
Absolutely!
Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at May 25, 2015 12:25 PM (V8fhv)
-----------
Absolutely!
Posted by: Mexico, Philippines, Puerto Rico, Florida at May 25, 2015 12:29 PM (NUqwG)
199
Posted by: rickl at May 25, 2015 12:17 PM (sdi6R)
Some folks can't sleep at night knowing other folks are out there being free.
Some folks can't sleep at night knowing other folks are out there being free.
Posted by: eman at May 25, 2015 12:30 PM (MQEz6)
200
'Socialists' are the 'moderate Muslims' of communism.
Posted by: Grump928(c) practices laconism at May 25, 2015 12:30 PM (evdj2)
201
America-that-was: By your deeds you rise or fall. You don't just have to accept what you're given--you can have more, if you can earn it by talent and effort. Not everyone will be driven to achieve, but even those content with less can find a place and prosper.
Fallen America: By your tribe you rise or fall. Accept what you're given--what makes you think you deserve better? Check your privelege! And get to work, my 8 kids by 6 daddys don't get their crazy checks from nowhere!
Fallen America: By your tribe you rise or fall. Accept what you're given--what makes you think you deserve better? Check your privelege! And get to work, my 8 kids by 6 daddys don't get their crazy checks from nowhere!
Posted by: Brother Cavil, by the Pale Moon light at May 25, 2015 12:31 PM (m9V0o)
202
The freedom to do what we want as long as we aren't hurting anyone else. To invent, to be left alone, to live as we see fit. None of those exist any longer. Today we can remember all of those lives lost for nothing. They didn't GIVE those lives for nothing, but that's how we treat them. God help us.
Posted by: BamaBubba at May 25, 2015 12:31 PM (vKTRb)
203
181 Does anybody know why we only fly it at half-staff
until noon on Memorial Day? It's the only time that is done. Every
other occasion to fly it at half-staff, it stays that way all day.
Posted by: rickl at May 25, 2015 12:12 PM (sdi6R
It was explained to me.... when I did it on the Ship... thusly....
It flies at half staff to honor our dead in the morning.... and is raised at noon to celebrate those who served, and lived....
But that is just one interpretation....
until noon on Memorial Day? It's the only time that is done. Every
other occasion to fly it at half-staff, it stays that way all day.
Posted by: rickl at May 25, 2015 12:12 PM (sdi6R
It was explained to me.... when I did it on the Ship... thusly....
It flies at half staff to honor our dead in the morning.... and is raised at noon to celebrate those who served, and lived....
But that is just one interpretation....
Posted by: BB Wolf at May 25, 2015 12:32 PM (qh617)
204
Instead the US did things like the Marshall Plan, which not only helped ward off the Soviets, but helped create the industries that would later compete with American industries.
--------------------------
A gift that keeps on giving long after the demise of the Soviet Union. Smart Power. You have to live it to love it!
--------------------------
A gift that keeps on giving long after the demise of the Soviet Union. Smart Power. You have to live it to love it!
Posted by: RioBravo at May 25, 2015 12:32 PM (NUqwG)
205
One thing that's unique to America is that one of our most important founding documents says that the people reserve the right to "alter or abolish" the government.
Posted by: rickl at May 25, 2015 12:33 PM (sdi6R)
206
If you don't like American soldiers being everywhere in the world, why don't you ask yourself why they are there in the first place, and promise not to plead for there return when the Chinese come a-knockin'?
Posted by: eman at May 25, 2015 12:33 PM (MQEz6)
207
Thanks to all those who answered my question in #181.
Posted by: rickl at May 25, 2015 12:34 PM (sdi6R)
208
RioBravo I hope that was being sarcastic...
Since Puerto Rico can never seem to vote for statehood or independence. Florida was thanks to Spain. As for the 1848 war, the US and Mexico signed a treaty after Polk's Imperial adventure. And the US kept its word to the Philippines by granting independence after WWII, just like we did with Cuba.
So not sure of what your point was.
Since Puerto Rico can never seem to vote for statehood or independence. Florida was thanks to Spain. As for the 1848 war, the US and Mexico signed a treaty after Polk's Imperial adventure. And the US kept its word to the Philippines by granting independence after WWII, just like we did with Cuba.
So not sure of what your point was.
Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at May 25, 2015 12:35 PM (V8fhv)
209
Thread pollution seems to have set in
Posted by: MTF at May 25, 2015 12:37 PM (FCsIb)
210
eman @ 206 -
I remember when Gerhardt Schroeder was running for re-election in Germany. It was all about "American imperialism" because that's what played well among German voters. Schroeder won but wouldn't stop. Bush was mostly quiet but finally he said "If the Chancellor doesn't want the American military in his country, he can just say so and we'll accommodate him."
And that was the end of that.
I remember when Gerhardt Schroeder was running for re-election in Germany. It was all about "American imperialism" because that's what played well among German voters. Schroeder won but wouldn't stop. Bush was mostly quiet but finally he said "If the Chancellor doesn't want the American military in his country, he can just say so and we'll accommodate him."
And that was the end of that.
Posted by: FireHorse at May 25, 2015 12:39 PM (8dNrT)
211
AMTRAK.
Posted by: Joe Biden at May 25, 2015 12:39 PM (TV9BR)
212
I'm of an optimistic nature, and I think we're going to go through one of our nation's periodic "readjustments". I'm also a fatalist who knows soft, lazy hedonists don't usually prosper in such times.
Posted by: All Hail Eris at May 25, 2015 12:40 PM (jR7Wy)
213
Blessings to the Fallen and their loved ones for the Freedom we still enjoy!
Posted by: Infidel at May 25, 2015 12:40 PM (86Sny)
214
What it means to be American? It means stepping through the door, not just up to the door. It can be a long hard trip to get to the door, but if you don't go through the door then you may as well have stayed at home.
Posted by: goon at May 25, 2015 12:40 PM (gy5kE)
215
Gerhardt Schroeder... oh yeah after leaving office he became a paid apparatchik/mercenary for Vlad Putin.
Great guy...
Great guy...
Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at May 25, 2015 12:41 PM (V8fhv)
216
If a comment was deleted, it wasn't by me. I was away so I missed it.
Posted by: Y-not at May 25, 2015 12:43 PM (RWGcK)
217
Since Puerto Rico can never seem to vote for statehood or independence. Florida was thanks to Spain. As for the 1848 war, the US and Mexico signed a treaty after Polk's Imperial adventure. And the US kept its word to the Philippines by granting independence after WWII, just like we did with Cuba.
So not sure of what your point was.
Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at May 25, 2015 12:35 PM (V8fhv)
-------
Almost all military-based land acquisitions in history have been obtained by treaty.
My point was that we have invaded territory and retained it. I don't see how that could have been missed.
We bought Florida after invading it multiple times and annexing portions of it unilaterally. Only then did Spain agree to sell what was left under their nominal control.
Half of Mexico was annexed following invasion.
Puerto Rico was annexed after being invaded while under Spanish control.
The Philippines were invaded after their declaration of independence. We did not promise independence until 1934.
The simple point is that the US has taken land it has invaded in war. In fact the acquisition of land was the primary objective in each of the military actions mentioned.
This purported American benevolence dates from the Atlantic Charter at the earliest. Another fundamental transformation.
So not sure of what your point was.
Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at May 25, 2015 12:35 PM (V8fhv)
-------
Almost all military-based land acquisitions in history have been obtained by treaty.
My point was that we have invaded territory and retained it. I don't see how that could have been missed.
We bought Florida after invading it multiple times and annexing portions of it unilaterally. Only then did Spain agree to sell what was left under their nominal control.
Half of Mexico was annexed following invasion.
Puerto Rico was annexed after being invaded while under Spanish control.
The Philippines were invaded after their declaration of independence. We did not promise independence until 1934.
The simple point is that the US has taken land it has invaded in war. In fact the acquisition of land was the primary objective in each of the military actions mentioned.
This purported American benevolence dates from the Atlantic Charter at the earliest. Another fundamental transformation.
Posted by: RioBravo at May 25, 2015 12:44 PM (NUqwG)
218
One thing that's unique to America is that one of our most important founding documents says that the people reserve the right to "alter or abolish" the government.
Posted by: rickl at May 25, 2015 12:33 PM (sdi6R)
-----
That was a declaration of independence and was a justification of the same. It did not establish a basis for the governance of the country or any 'rights' to any residents therein.
Posted by: rickl at May 25, 2015 12:33 PM (sdi6R)
-----
That was a declaration of independence and was a justification of the same. It did not establish a basis for the governance of the country or any 'rights' to any residents therein.
Posted by: RioBravo at May 25, 2015 12:48 PM (NUqwG)
219
I know what America isn't.
"Five-year-old Yasmeen Faruqui didn't feel like doing her homework. She insisted she wanted to write to President Obama instead. And he wrote back.
"Please stop war for our world, instead have a meeting," reads Yasmeen's handwritten note, posted to Twitter by her aunt. "Please give a speech to tell everyone they can marry who they want.""
""Tell your niece I really like her letter. Couldn't agree more!" the commander-in-chief replied Friday on Twitter. It's just the sixth tweet on his new account."
Fuck it all.
"Five-year-old Yasmeen Faruqui didn't feel like doing her homework. She insisted she wanted to write to President Obama instead. And he wrote back.
"Please stop war for our world, instead have a meeting," reads Yasmeen's handwritten note, posted to Twitter by her aunt. "Please give a speech to tell everyone they can marry who they want.""
""Tell your niece I really like her letter. Couldn't agree more!" the commander-in-chief replied Friday on Twitter. It's just the sixth tweet on his new account."
Fuck it all.
Posted by: Lauren at May 25, 2015 12:48 PM (MYCIw)
220
John Hancock:
There, I guess King George will be able to read that without his spectacles!
There, I guess King George will be able to read that without his spectacles!
Posted by: ameryx at May 25, 2015 12:49 PM (IFrVk)
221
If you're in Commerce City CO, being an American means a city council which has a boatload of rules on how they think you are to properly observe the holiday parade
https://twitter.com/brendanloy/status/602878415557931008
https://twitter.com/brendanloy/status/602878415557931008
Posted by: kbdabear at May 25, 2015 12:49 PM (GrXXa)
222
It did not establish a basis for the governance of the country or any 'rights' to any residents therein.
---
The Declaration of Independence is a mission statement.
The Constitution is more of an owner's manual.
I think it is faulty to behave as if the Declaration of Independence isn't just as important as the Constitution.
---
The Declaration of Independence is a mission statement.
The Constitution is more of an owner's manual.
I think it is faulty to behave as if the Declaration of Independence isn't just as important as the Constitution.
Posted by: Y-not at May 25, 2015 12:50 PM (RWGcK)
223
It's just the sixth tweet on his new account."
Fuck it all.
Posted by: Lauren at May 25, 2015 12:48 PM
Had it been little blonde moppet Suzie Smith and not a dark-skinned Member of an Oppressed Minority and Persecuted Religion With the Most Beautiful Call to Prayer in the World Yasmeen Faruqui, Choom Boy wouldn't have taken a spare second from his putting practice to reply.
Fuck it all.
Posted by: Lauren at May 25, 2015 12:48 PM
Had it been little blonde moppet Suzie Smith and not a dark-skinned Member of an Oppressed Minority and Persecuted Religion With the Most Beautiful Call to Prayer in the World Yasmeen Faruqui, Choom Boy wouldn't have taken a spare second from his putting practice to reply.
Posted by: MrScribbler at May 25, 2015 12:52 PM (P8YHq)
Posted by: Bertram Cabot Jr. at May 25, 2015 12:53 PM (W5DcG)
225
It think McDonald's 29 Cent Cheeseburger Tuesdays was America's best value.
Posted by: Garrett at May 25, 2015 12:55 PM (Zp3oV)
226
Every generation has had slackers, but these youngest generations expect to be applauded and rewarded for their "slackdom."
Posted by: Y-not at May 25, 2015 12:55 PM (RWGcK)
227
Thanks for this thread, Y-not. We've had to reassess constantly -- through a revolution, a civil war, westward expansion, mass immigration and demographic shift, and our role on the world stage. We're forever in flux and we need to keep asking ourselves, what are the fundamental American values?
Posted by: All Hail Eris at May 25, 2015 12:56 PM (jR7Wy)
228
Bertram Cabot Jr - why not? Our President at Harvard never felt like writing a single article when he was editor.
Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at May 25, 2015 12:57 PM (V8fhv)
229
A republic. One rule of law applying to all men. Ironically it died before the first memorial day. We did not watch America die, we were simply present at it's century long funeral.
Posted by: Big Ben at May 25, 2015 12:57 PM (xL+qz)
230
Every generation has had slackers, but these youngest generations expect to be applauded and rewarded for their "slackdom."
Posted by: Y-not at May 25, 2015 12:55 PM (RWGcK)
---
Not to brag, but my senior chief told me MY generation was the worst f*cking generation he'd ever seen.
Posted by: Y-not at May 25, 2015 12:55 PM (RWGcK)
---
Not to brag, but my senior chief told me MY generation was the worst f*cking generation he'd ever seen.
Posted by: All Hail Eris at May 25, 2015 01:00 PM (jR7Wy)
231
Five-year-old Yasmeen Faruqui didn't feel like doing her homework. She insisted she wanted to write to President Obama instead. And he wrote back.
Like minds.
Like minds.
Posted by: Grump928(c) practices laconism at May 25, 2015 01:00 PM (evdj2)
232
Posted by: Y-not at May 25, 2015 12:50 PM (RWGcK)
------
I ALMOST feel like a troll today.
I think a discomfort I have with many of the ideas presented today on what it means to be an American is that the they are focused on certain ideas (individual liberty, creeds, declarations of equality) and nothing about the actual people who are in fact Americans.
------
I ALMOST feel like a troll today.
I think a discomfort I have with many of the ideas presented today on what it means to be an American is that the they are focused on certain ideas (individual liberty, creeds, declarations of equality) and nothing about the actual people who are in fact Americans.
Posted by: RioBravo at May 25, 2015 01:00 PM (NUqwG)
233
Nood.
Posted by: HH at May 25, 2015 01:02 PM (Ce4DF)
234
So not sure of what your point was.
Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD)
------
Forget it Anna Puma. I had a girlfriend once whose father treated her like crap growing up. For over a year I treated her with nothing but respect and love. When we broke up she said she knew I would leave her "because" she then described me as doing all the things I never did but her father had.
Think of all the Mexican and Central American nationals who come here illegally and work, send money home, and live without the fear of the knock on the door they had at home. Many of them are very political now days and constantly complain about how horrible the United States is. And yet, they keep coming.
In the '60s it became daring and fashionable to slam America and during that post war period a lot of it was justified, but it became a sickness and now people who have never lived or worked in a Country where there are armed soldiers everywhere or no personal rights come to America or are even born here and think they are in a hell hole of Imperial Rome. These are often the same people who think they are smarter than the dead White guys who got drunk and made up a Constitution. I often asked Ace what he thought would happen in the future: The communists draw up a stupid plan on paper and expect human nature and reality to conform to it. Now, today, people take to social media and seem to want an imperial Presidency and think the former is a workable democracy while the latter is Progressive freedom.
The soldiers of WW II are all dying off and we are going to go through worse and millions more will die because no one remembers what high functioning animals people are or how messy the World really is offline.
Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD)
------
Forget it Anna Puma. I had a girlfriend once whose father treated her like crap growing up. For over a year I treated her with nothing but respect and love. When we broke up she said she knew I would leave her "because" she then described me as doing all the things I never did but her father had.
Think of all the Mexican and Central American nationals who come here illegally and work, send money home, and live without the fear of the knock on the door they had at home. Many of them are very political now days and constantly complain about how horrible the United States is. And yet, they keep coming.
In the '60s it became daring and fashionable to slam America and during that post war period a lot of it was justified, but it became a sickness and now people who have never lived or worked in a Country where there are armed soldiers everywhere or no personal rights come to America or are even born here and think they are in a hell hole of Imperial Rome. These are often the same people who think they are smarter than the dead White guys who got drunk and made up a Constitution. I often asked Ace what he thought would happen in the future: The communists draw up a stupid plan on paper and expect human nature and reality to conform to it. Now, today, people take to social media and seem to want an imperial Presidency and think the former is a workable democracy while the latter is Progressive freedom.
The soldiers of WW II are all dying off and we are going to go through worse and millions more will die because no one remembers what high functioning animals people are or how messy the World really is offline.
Posted by: Daybrother at May 25, 2015 01:03 PM (rkjfY)
235
I think a discomfort I have with many of the ideas presented today on what it means to be an American is that the they are focused on certain ideas (individual liberty, creeds, declarations of equality) and nothing about the actual people who are in fact Americans.
It's like the studying ideals of Christianity, rather than focusing on the reality of sinners. America is a set of ideas agreed upon, not a forced collection of tribes and cultures. Our rulers seem to have rejected those ideas recently, though I don't remember it coming up for a vote.
It's like the studying ideals of Christianity, rather than focusing on the reality of sinners. America is a set of ideas agreed upon, not a forced collection of tribes and cultures. Our rulers seem to have rejected those ideas recently, though I don't remember it coming up for a vote.
Posted by: Grump928(c) practices laconism at May 25, 2015 01:04 PM (evdj2)
236
Here is the killer part of liberal thinking, as even expressed by Oblahblah, that 'just have a meeting' with isis will 'stop the wars'. All liberals have the thinking of a 5 year old (not really a dis to her).
BTW, let us not forget from the recent document release that obama and clinton did the initial financing and armament for the creation of isis.
Here is the killer part of liberal thinking, as even expressed by Oblahblah, that 'just have a meeting' with isis will 'stop the wars'. All liberals have the thinking of a 5 year old (not really a dis to her).
BTW, let us not forget from the recent document release that obama and clinton did the initial financing and armament for the creation of isis.
Posted by: Guy Mohawk at May 25, 2015 01:06 PM (ODxAs)
237
Here is the killer part of liberal thinking, as even expressed by Oblahblah, that 'just have a meeting' with isis will 'stop the wars'.
It could, with the right resolve.
It could, with the right resolve.
Posted by: Edward Longshanks at May 25, 2015 01:07 PM (evdj2)
238
America is a set of ideas agreed upon, not a forced collection of tribes and cultures.
----
But we are a collection of tribes and cultures. And they voted figuratively with their feet or procreation.
----
But we are a collection of tribes and cultures. And they voted figuratively with their feet or procreation.
Posted by: RioBravo at May 25, 2015 01:08 PM (NUqwG)
239
I'm not fighting with you rio bravo. Like I said, mistakes were made and as my father always said, "it isn't the best system but it is a Hell of a lot better than everyone else".
The World without America would be a nightmare.
The World without America would be a nightmare.
Posted by: Daybrother at May 25, 2015 01:09 PM (rkjfY)
240
235
It's like the studying ideals of Christianity, rather than focusing on the reality of sinners. America is a set of ideas agreed upon, not a forced collection of tribes and cultures.
Posted by: Grump928(c) practices laconism at May 25, 2015 01:04 PM (evdj2)
This. More than any other nation, America was founded on a set of ideas, ideals, and principles; rather than race, ethnicity, language, or religion. Pretty much every other nation is based on some combination of the latter four.
True, the majority at the time of the founding were white English-speaking Christians, but that was not the basis for the nation. Immigrants of every race and language can become Americans if they choose to live by those principles. At least we used to believe that.
Do we always live up to those ideal and principles? No, because human beings are imperfect and flawed. But they make good signposts to follow.
It's like the studying ideals of Christianity, rather than focusing on the reality of sinners. America is a set of ideas agreed upon, not a forced collection of tribes and cultures.
Posted by: Grump928(c) practices laconism at May 25, 2015 01:04 PM (evdj2)
This. More than any other nation, America was founded on a set of ideas, ideals, and principles; rather than race, ethnicity, language, or religion. Pretty much every other nation is based on some combination of the latter four.
True, the majority at the time of the founding were white English-speaking Christians, but that was not the basis for the nation. Immigrants of every race and language can become Americans if they choose to live by those principles. At least we used to believe that.
Do we always live up to those ideal and principles? No, because human beings are imperfect and flawed. But they make good signposts to follow.
Posted by: rickl at May 25, 2015 01:15 PM (sdi6R)
241
I'm not fighting with you rio bravo. Like I said, mistakes were made and as my father always said, "it isn't the best system but it is a Hell of a lot better than everyone else".
The World without America would be a nightmare.
Posted by: Daybrother at May 25, 2015 01:09 PM (rkjfY)
--------
(I don't mean to fight either. I may not be very proficient with short blog comments...)
I was not intending to be critical of our history (except for the continuation of the Bretton Woods system beyond the Cold War).
I don't see the need to cover up our past (or worse, to deceive ourselves about it) because it does not conform with our current perceptions of the national mission. Particularly when we are identifying ourselves with a declaration from 1776.
The World without America would be a nightmare.
Posted by: Daybrother at May 25, 2015 01:09 PM (rkjfY)
--------
(I don't mean to fight either. I may not be very proficient with short blog comments...)
I was not intending to be critical of our history (except for the continuation of the Bretton Woods system beyond the Cold War).
I don't see the need to cover up our past (or worse, to deceive ourselves about it) because it does not conform with our current perceptions of the national mission. Particularly when we are identifying ourselves with a declaration from 1776.
Posted by: RioBravo at May 25, 2015 01:16 PM (NUqwG)
242
The Philippines were invaded after their declaration of independence. We did not promise independence until 1934.
One quibble. That's when the date was promised. The government had a policy of building the Philippines up toward eventual independence that started very shortly after the Spanish American War.
The simple point is that the US has taken land it has invaded in war. In fact the acquisition of land was the primary objective in each of the military actions mentioned.
This purported American benevolence dates from the Atlantic Charter at the earliest. Another fundamental transformation.
Posted by: RioBravo at May 25, 2015 12:44 PM (NUqwG)
If you're talking about benevolence, I'd say there's a difference between countries that engage in wars or take land after somebody else attacked first and ones that don't. And, yes, I know even the most aggressive countries have generally created a story about being attack first before they start a war--but for the U.S., this has almost always actually been true. I'd say "always," but I assume there's some exception I'm not thinking of.
Also, when empires have not taken all the land they've conquered, it's usually because they would have been incapable of holding onto it. For the U.S., this wasn't case. If we had the desire, we could have controlled a much larger portion of the globe than we do today.
The idea of America disliking imperialism also arises from us having opportunities to expand that we turned down (i.e., Santo Domingo, though that had more to do with Reconstruction politics, and power in turn-of-the-century China).
One quibble. That's when the date was promised. The government had a policy of building the Philippines up toward eventual independence that started very shortly after the Spanish American War.
The simple point is that the US has taken land it has invaded in war. In fact the acquisition of land was the primary objective in each of the military actions mentioned.
This purported American benevolence dates from the Atlantic Charter at the earliest. Another fundamental transformation.
Posted by: RioBravo at May 25, 2015 12:44 PM (NUqwG)
If you're talking about benevolence, I'd say there's a difference between countries that engage in wars or take land after somebody else attacked first and ones that don't. And, yes, I know even the most aggressive countries have generally created a story about being attack first before they start a war--but for the U.S., this has almost always actually been true. I'd say "always," but I assume there's some exception I'm not thinking of.
Also, when empires have not taken all the land they've conquered, it's usually because they would have been incapable of holding onto it. For the U.S., this wasn't case. If we had the desire, we could have controlled a much larger portion of the globe than we do today.
The idea of America disliking imperialism also arises from us having opportunities to expand that we turned down (i.e., Santo Domingo, though that had more to do with Reconstruction politics, and power in turn-of-the-century China).
Posted by: AD at May 25, 2015 01:19 PM (yBmlR)
243
macScribbler @ 151- Real enemy?
Anybody on the left, and I mean anybody, is my enemy. For what ever reason they are on the left. Be it stupidity, willing compliance, evil intent, or true belief, they are my enemy. They are America's enemy. And they are the enemy of civilization. over an above all, they are the children of satan, GOD'S enemy.
Anybody on the left, and I mean anybody, is my enemy. For what ever reason they are on the left. Be it stupidity, willing compliance, evil intent, or true belief, they are my enemy. They are America's enemy. And they are the enemy of civilization. over an above all, they are the children of satan, GOD'S enemy.
Posted by: Eromero at May 25, 2015 01:20 PM (go5uR)
244
What does it mean to be an American?
Cowboy poetry.
My fathers sleep on the sunrise plains,
And each one sleeps alone.
Their trails may dim to the grass and rains,
For I choose to make my own.
I lay proud claim to their blood and name,
But I lean on no dead kin;
My name is mine for the praise or scorn,
And the world began when I was born
And the world is mine to win.
Cowboy poetry.
My fathers sleep on the sunrise plains,
And each one sleeps alone.
Their trails may dim to the grass and rains,
For I choose to make my own.
I lay proud claim to their blood and name,
But I lean on no dead kin;
My name is mine for the praise or scorn,
And the world began when I was born
And the world is mine to win.
Posted by: Bossy Conservative....lost in America at May 25, 2015 01:22 PM (+1T7c)
245
Immigrants of every race and language can become Americans if they choose to live by those principles. At least we used to believe that.
-----
Nothing in the acquisition of US citizenship via naturalization involves accepting any principles. Most citizenship is obtained by birth; it has nothing to do with accepting principles. Whether we believe it or not is irrelevant. No one becomes an American BY accepting principles.
----
At least we used to believe that.
-----
Not until the past 100 years at most.
-----
Nothing in the acquisition of US citizenship via naturalization involves accepting any principles. Most citizenship is obtained by birth; it has nothing to do with accepting principles. Whether we believe it or not is irrelevant. No one becomes an American BY accepting principles.
----
At least we used to believe that.
-----
Not until the past 100 years at most.
Posted by: RioBravo at May 25, 2015 01:23 PM (NUqwG)
246
If we had the desire, we could have controlled a much larger portion of the globe than we do today.
Posted by: AD at May 25, 2015 01:19 PM (yBmlR)
-----
The problem was usually not the land but all the people who lived there. They were not considered good candidates to be Americans.
Posted by: AD at May 25, 2015 01:19 PM (yBmlR)
-----
The problem was usually not the land but all the people who lived there. They were not considered good candidates to be Americans.
Posted by: RioBravo at May 25, 2015 01:25 PM (NUqwG)
247
I'd say "always," but I assume there's some exception I'm not thinking of.
As soon as I posted that, I thought of the obvious example, the second Iraq War. However, even there they were shot at our jets that tried to enforce the no-fly zone and tried to assassinate Bush Sr. in the 90s (BTW, f' GWB for never bringing this shit up).
As soon as I posted that, I thought of the obvious example, the second Iraq War. However, even there they were shot at our jets that tried to enforce the no-fly zone and tried to assassinate Bush Sr. in the 90s (BTW, f' GWB for never bringing this shit up).
Posted by: AD at May 25, 2015 01:26 PM (yBmlR)
248
The problem was usually not the land but all the people who lived there. They were not considered good candidates to be Americans.
Posted by: RioBravo at May 25, 2015 01:25 PM (NUqwG)
That didn't stop the empires we're comparing America to, did it?
Posted by: RioBravo at May 25, 2015 01:25 PM (NUqwG)
That didn't stop the empires we're comparing America to, did it?
Posted by: AD at May 25, 2015 01:27 PM (yBmlR)
249
If you're talking about benevolence, I'd say there's a difference between countries that engage in wars or take land after somebody else attacked first and ones that don't.
----
I assume that refers to the Mexican War. Yes the Mexicans attacked in first in disputed territory which the US occupied first. Mexico desired war. I am proud of the actions of the US. But our war objective was not defense; it was to acquire land. We deliberately provoked a Mexican attack so we could seize certain of their territories.
We chose to invade Spanish Florida and we chose to declare war on Spain in 1898. Spain did not attack. We invaded the independent Philippines because wanted to. We attacked first.
----
I assume that refers to the Mexican War. Yes the Mexicans attacked in first in disputed territory which the US occupied first. Mexico desired war. I am proud of the actions of the US. But our war objective was not defense; it was to acquire land. We deliberately provoked a Mexican attack so we could seize certain of their territories.
We chose to invade Spanish Florida and we chose to declare war on Spain in 1898. Spain did not attack. We invaded the independent Philippines because wanted to. We attacked first.
Posted by: RioBravo at May 25, 2015 01:30 PM (NUqwG)
250
I don't see the need to cover up our past (or worse, to deceive ourselves about it) because it does not conform with our current perceptions of the national mission. Particularly when we are identifying ourselves with a declaration from 1776.
Posted by: RioBravo
----
I'm a Constitutionalist. The representatives started to veer off from the Constitution in the early 1800s. To get back to the freedom guaranteed by that brilliant document we need to face all the mistakes we've made but in our zeal to see the details we forget the big picture. In the history of the World America has been a unique example of a force for good for the most part. The bigger problem is a great example of scholarship today lives in the White House and sets policy for our Country. The opposing voices meant to keep that guy honest are corrupt and stupid to the core.
\But today is a day we remember the dead and living that picked up a gun and often died far away because they thought it was the right thing to do for the most part.
Posted by: RioBravo
----
I'm a Constitutionalist. The representatives started to veer off from the Constitution in the early 1800s. To get back to the freedom guaranteed by that brilliant document we need to face all the mistakes we've made but in our zeal to see the details we forget the big picture. In the history of the World America has been a unique example of a force for good for the most part. The bigger problem is a great example of scholarship today lives in the White House and sets policy for our Country. The opposing voices meant to keep that guy honest are corrupt and stupid to the core.
\But today is a day we remember the dead and living that picked up a gun and often died far away because they thought it was the right thing to do for the most part.
Posted by: Daybrother at May 25, 2015 01:33 PM (rkjfY)
251
That didn't stop the empires we're comparing America to, did it?
Posted by: AD at May 25, 2015 01:27 PM (yBmlR)
----
No, because their empires were happily multi-cultural. Ours was not. Ours was an empire of settlement. (Only the British white dominions, Brazil, Chile, and Argentina were similar as settlement colonies)
We were usually looking for living space for our people to settle and strategic geography (New Orleans, SF Bay, etc) to support the living space.
Posted by: AD at May 25, 2015 01:27 PM (yBmlR)
----
No, because their empires were happily multi-cultural. Ours was not. Ours was an empire of settlement. (Only the British white dominions, Brazil, Chile, and Argentina were similar as settlement colonies)
We were usually looking for living space for our people to settle and strategic geography (New Orleans, SF Bay, etc) to support the living space.
Posted by: RioBravo at May 25, 2015 01:36 PM (NUqwG)
252
We chose to invade Spanish Florida
The Spanish didn't attack. The Seminoles in Florida, though, did.
and we chose to declare war on Spain in 1898. Spain did not attack. We invaded the independent Philippines because wanted to. We attacked first.
Posted by: RioBravo at May 25, 2015 01:30 PM (NUqwG)
Come on, the Maine was weak in retrospect (and who knows who did it), but it did happen. It also wasn't the first issue we had with Spain.
The Spanish didn't attack. The Seminoles in Florida, though, did.
and we chose to declare war on Spain in 1898. Spain did not attack. We invaded the independent Philippines because wanted to. We attacked first.
Posted by: RioBravo at May 25, 2015 01:30 PM (NUqwG)
Come on, the Maine was weak in retrospect (and who knows who did it), but it did happen. It also wasn't the first issue we had with Spain.
Posted by: AD at May 25, 2015 01:40 PM (yBmlR)
253
The representatives started to veer off from the Constitution in the early 1800s.
Posted by: Daybrother at May 25, 2015 01:33 PM (rkjfY)
-------
Much of the early steering was at the hands of those who are now often cited as proponents of limited government and strict interpretations (Jefferson, for example).
But that is what makes the history of those dead men so exciting.
Posted by: Daybrother at May 25, 2015 01:33 PM (rkjfY)
-------
Much of the early steering was at the hands of those who are now often cited as proponents of limited government and strict interpretations (Jefferson, for example).
But that is what makes the history of those dead men so exciting.
Posted by: RioBravo at May 25, 2015 01:41 PM (NUqwG)
254
Limited Government, and Liberty. Liberty can only flourish where government is limited.
The famous line by Dr. King, quoted by Y-not, is a nice expression of the post Civil War ideal of Equality; which IS arguably the Ideal upon which the current regime is based.
Equality as a founding principal is more European than American, and is a mirage. All men are not the same. We each are different. The pursuit of the mirage has always led to the stifling of Liberty, and to an all unlimited, tyrannical government. And then to bloodshed.
The famous line by Dr. King, quoted by Y-not, is a nice expression of the post Civil War ideal of Equality; which IS arguably the Ideal upon which the current regime is based.
Equality as a founding principal is more European than American, and is a mirage. All men are not the same. We each are different. The pursuit of the mirage has always led to the stifling of Liberty, and to an all unlimited, tyrannical government. And then to bloodshed.
Posted by: Anti-socialist at May 25, 2015 01:45 PM (+kznc)
255
The Seminoles in Florida, though, did.
------
Only after we seized Florida.
(Like ISIS in the ME today) the Seminoles and the runaway slaves in Florida were an existential threat to our security. No one is safe if there are free armed negroes (sic) hiding out in the woods of Florida.
------
Only after we seized Florida.
(Like ISIS in the ME today) the Seminoles and the runaway slaves in Florida were an existential threat to our security. No one is safe if there are free armed negroes (sic) hiding out in the woods of Florida.
Posted by: RioBravo at May 25, 2015 01:45 PM (NUqwG)
256
The representatives started to veer off from the Constitution in the early 1800s.
Posted by: Daybrother at May 25, 2015 01:33 PM (rkjfY)
-------
Much of the early steering was at the hands of those who are now often cited as proponents of limited government and strict interpretations (Jefferson, for example).
But that is what makes the history of those dead men so exciting.
Posted by: RioBravo
Yes. The same generation and often the very same guys who drew up a brilliant historical document allowing individuals great freedom and limited government went all wonky when they themselves got into the driver's seat.
Like I said, high functioning animals trying to get along.
Posted by: Daybrother at May 25, 2015 01:33 PM (rkjfY)
-------
Much of the early steering was at the hands of those who are now often cited as proponents of limited government and strict interpretations (Jefferson, for example).
But that is what makes the history of those dead men so exciting.
Posted by: RioBravo
Yes. The same generation and often the very same guys who drew up a brilliant historical document allowing individuals great freedom and limited government went all wonky when they themselves got into the driver's seat.
Like I said, high functioning animals trying to get along.
Posted by: Daybrother at May 25, 2015 01:46 PM (ho6oy)
257
No, because their empires were happily multi-cultural.
Rio, come on, I don't think "happily multi-cultural" applies to the British or French or German or Han or Spanish, etc. Empires. You've got the Persians as truly multi-cultural...and that's about it. More "multi-cultural at sufferance." To the extent the British could have made everybody English-speaking Anglicans who adhered to every aspect of British culture, they would have been happy to do so.
Rio, come on, I don't think "happily multi-cultural" applies to the British or French or German or Han or Spanish, etc. Empires. You've got the Persians as truly multi-cultural...and that's about it. More "multi-cultural at sufferance." To the extent the British could have made everybody English-speaking Anglicans who adhered to every aspect of British culture, they would have been happy to do so.
Posted by: AD at May 25, 2015 01:47 PM (yBmlR)
258
Come on, the Maine was weak in retrospect (and who knows who did it), but it did happen. It also wasn't the first issue we had with Spain.
Posted by: AD at May 25, 2015 01:40 PM (yBmlR)
--------
Certainly if the Spanish (vicious bastards with concentration camps and all) had abandoned their most valuable colony when we politely asked them to do so, they could avoided the entire humiliating war.
Posted by: AD at May 25, 2015 01:40 PM (yBmlR)
--------
Certainly if the Spanish (vicious bastards with concentration camps and all) had abandoned their most valuable colony when we politely asked them to do so, they could avoided the entire humiliating war.
Posted by: RioBravo at May 25, 2015 01:48 PM (NUqwG)
259
To the extent the British could have made everybody English-speaking Anglicans who adhered to every aspect of British culture, they would have been happy to do so.
Posted by: AD at May 25, 2015 01:47 PM (yBmlR)
-----
The fact is they never tried to do so and apparently had no desire to do so.
That would have been completely at variance with their entire colonial policy (outside of Anglo settler colonies.
Posted by: AD at May 25, 2015 01:47 PM (yBmlR)
-----
The fact is they never tried to do so and apparently had no desire to do so.
That would have been completely at variance with their entire colonial policy (outside of Anglo settler colonies.
Posted by: RioBravo at May 25, 2015 01:50 PM (NUqwG)
260
The Seminoles in Florida, though, did.
------
Only after we seized Florida.
Sorry, Rio, that's simply not true. We had a dispute over the panhandle as part of the Louisiana Purchase and seized that by proclamation if that's what you mean.
------
Only after we seized Florida.
Sorry, Rio, that's simply not true. We had a dispute over the panhandle as part of the Louisiana Purchase and seized that by proclamation if that's what you mean.
Posted by: AD at May 25, 2015 01:52 PM (yBmlR)
261
Posted by: Daybrother at May 25, 2015 01:46 PM (ho6oy)
-----
As a friendly jest:
Perhaps their brilliant historical document was not compatible with the real world they had to deal with.
-----
As a friendly jest:
Perhaps their brilliant historical document was not compatible with the real world they had to deal with.
Posted by: RioBravo at May 25, 2015 01:54 PM (NUqwG)
262
The fact is they never tried to do so and apparently had no desire to do so.
This just isn't true. They sent missionaries everywhere, spread English, in some cases forcibly, cracked down on cultural practices they considered savage, and promoted English customs on everything from dress to the names of days of the week.
This just isn't true. They sent missionaries everywhere, spread English, in some cases forcibly, cracked down on cultural practices they considered savage, and promoted English customs on everything from dress to the names of days of the week.
Posted by: AD at May 25, 2015 01:55 PM (yBmlR)
263
To the extent the British could have made everybody English-speaking Anglicans who adhered to every aspect of British culture, they would have been happy to do so.
Posted by: AD at May 25, 2015 01:47 PM (yBmlR)
---------
I worked extensively with Pakistani military special forces. The officers will happily give a British salute and tell you in a very British accent that they know exactly how to be a perfect British soldier. Indian officers can do the same. I think NATO troops are a different story from that legacy. I wish there were a smart military blog somewhere where a military/world historian could really go into the long story of the last 400 years.
Posted by: AD at May 25, 2015 01:47 PM (yBmlR)
---------
I worked extensively with Pakistani military special forces. The officers will happily give a British salute and tell you in a very British accent that they know exactly how to be a perfect British soldier. Indian officers can do the same. I think NATO troops are a different story from that legacy. I wish there were a smart military blog somewhere where a military/world historian could really go into the long story of the last 400 years.
Posted by: Daybrother at May 25, 2015 01:58 PM (ho6oy)
264
Sorry, Rio, that's simply not true. We had a dispute over the panhandle as part of the Louisiana Purchase and seized that by proclamation if that's what you mean.
Posted by: AD at May 25, 2015 01:52 PM (yBmlR)
No. We agreed with the northern panhandle border with the Treaty of San Lorenzo in 1795. Later disagreement were simply American provocations to seize the territory from the Spanish. (There was an open dispute from the LA purchase with regard to part of Texas.)
Posted by: AD at May 25, 2015 01:52 PM (yBmlR)
No. We agreed with the northern panhandle border with the Treaty of San Lorenzo in 1795. Later disagreement were simply American provocations to seize the territory from the Spanish. (There was an open dispute from the LA purchase with regard to part of Texas.)
Posted by: RioBravo at May 25, 2015 01:58 PM (NUqwG)
265
Certainly if the Spanish (vicious bastards with concentration camps and all) had abandoned their most valuable colony when we politely asked them to do so, they could avoided the entire humiliating war.
Posted by: RioBravo at May 25, 2015 01:48 PM (NUqwG)
Yeah, in retrospect it was weak and stupid and Spain was perfectly justified in fighting us (assuming they weren't involved in the Maine blowing up, which I'd assume they weren't), but it's not as if we just decided to attack without thinking we'd been attacked first. That might not be that big a difference (and not a justified one), but I'd still say it's some difference.
Posted by: RioBravo at May 25, 2015 01:48 PM (NUqwG)
Yeah, in retrospect it was weak and stupid and Spain was perfectly justified in fighting us (assuming they weren't involved in the Maine blowing up, which I'd assume they weren't), but it's not as if we just decided to attack without thinking we'd been attacked first. That might not be that big a difference (and not a justified one), but I'd still say it's some difference.
Posted by: AD at May 25, 2015 02:00 PM (yBmlR)
266
No. We agreed with the northern panhandle border with the Treaty of San Lorenzo in 1795. Later disagreement were simply American provocations to seize the territory from the Spanish. (There was an open dispute from the LA purchase with regard to part of Texas.)
The Treaty of San Lorenzo, set just that, the Northern border, not how far West Florida went.
The Treaty of San Lorenzo, set just that, the Northern border, not how far West Florida went.
Posted by: AD at May 25, 2015 02:04 PM (yBmlR)
267
The acquisition of land was the goal or a major goal in every major military action we engaged in (well, maybe not the Quasi War with France if you consider that a major war) until World War I.
Independence: Trans-Appalachia
1812- Canada, Florida
Mexico - Northern Mexico
Civil - South
Spanish - Philippines (at least TR & Dewey), Cuba
Independence: Trans-Appalachia
1812- Canada, Florida
Mexico - Northern Mexico
Civil - South
Spanish - Philippines (at least TR & Dewey), Cuba
Posted by: RioBravo at May 25, 2015 02:07 PM (NUqwG)
268
America is most certainly not "an idea."
This is the poisonous fallacy of the social engineers who think they can abstract an entirely new country based on how they would interpret a couple of phrases. America-as-an-idea can also be a lullaby to ourselves, to convince us that although we've lost the culture, we still have a country.
The founding of America had a lot to do with certain ideas. But the ideas had to be made flesh by our accumulated experience and perpetuated by a shared culture, e.g. going out to vote, supporting yourself, integrity of the family, obeying the law, respecting your neighbors, joining the PTA, Little League, taking part in July 4th etc.
Today the American people is now a patchwork of places and people within the original America, here and there, still the majority and dominant culture in some states, some neighborhoods, but not most.
Have a meaningful and enjoyable Memorial Day all.
This is the poisonous fallacy of the social engineers who think they can abstract an entirely new country based on how they would interpret a couple of phrases. America-as-an-idea can also be a lullaby to ourselves, to convince us that although we've lost the culture, we still have a country.
The founding of America had a lot to do with certain ideas. But the ideas had to be made flesh by our accumulated experience and perpetuated by a shared culture, e.g. going out to vote, supporting yourself, integrity of the family, obeying the law, respecting your neighbors, joining the PTA, Little League, taking part in July 4th etc.
Today the American people is now a patchwork of places and people within the original America, here and there, still the majority and dominant culture in some states, some neighborhoods, but not most.
Have a meaningful and enjoyable Memorial Day all.
Posted by: NYC Parent at May 25, 2015 02:09 PM (VJ4oZ)
269
The Treaty of San Lorenzo, set just that, the Northern border, not how far West Florida went.
Posted by: AD at May 25, 2015 02:04 PM (yBmlR)
---------
Mississippi River at the 31st degree north latitude
Posted by: AD at May 25, 2015 02:04 PM (yBmlR)
---------
Mississippi River at the 31st degree north latitude
Posted by: RioBravo at May 25, 2015 02:09 PM (NUqwG)
270
Perhaps their brilliant historical document was not compatible with the real world they had to deal with.
Posted by: RioBravo
--------
Now you are trolling. My unspoken point was that those dead guys had an extensive historical education and perspective. Far greater than the average American today. They also debated in relatively small groups how to mold that document and finally compromised on the Bill of Rights flawed as it was it was still brilliant. They were all young turks from a relatively homogenous group with similar goals and yet hen each of them got a turn in power they got something wrong. I see your point but turn it around again: Instead of a piece of paper saying how the People had to act the piece of paper laid out how the central authority had to act. Revolutionary in its way and an evolution in government. I once posted a story by Davey Crockett. He explained how there was a fire in Georgetown and the Congress voted to give the widows and orphans money. He went home and his constituents were furious. He was told that was not the Congress's job. In the story he explained how he realized they were right.
Flawed people trying to do the right thing.
Posted by: RioBravo
--------
Now you are trolling. My unspoken point was that those dead guys had an extensive historical education and perspective. Far greater than the average American today. They also debated in relatively small groups how to mold that document and finally compromised on the Bill of Rights flawed as it was it was still brilliant. They were all young turks from a relatively homogenous group with similar goals and yet hen each of them got a turn in power they got something wrong. I see your point but turn it around again: Instead of a piece of paper saying how the People had to act the piece of paper laid out how the central authority had to act. Revolutionary in its way and an evolution in government. I once posted a story by Davey Crockett. He explained how there was a fire in Georgetown and the Congress voted to give the widows and orphans money. He went home and his constituents were furious. He was told that was not the Congress's job. In the story he explained how he realized they were right.
Flawed people trying to do the right thing.
Posted by: Daybrother at May 25, 2015 02:10 PM (ho6oy)
271
Mississippi River at the 31st degree north latitude
Posted by: RioBravo at May 25, 2015 02:09 PM (NUqwG)]
That's nice. But, again, that changed with the Louisiana Purchase. For starters, this is why:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Treaty_of_San_Ildefonso
Rio, sorry, I'd actually enjoy this on another day, but don't have time for this. Have fun. Enjoy Memorial Day to the extent you can this type of holiday. I'm out.
Posted by: RioBravo at May 25, 2015 02:09 PM (NUqwG)]
That's nice. But, again, that changed with the Louisiana Purchase. For starters, this is why:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Treaty_of_San_Ildefonso
Rio, sorry, I'd actually enjoy this on another day, but don't have time for this. Have fun. Enjoy Memorial Day to the extent you can this type of holiday. I'm out.
Posted by: AD at May 25, 2015 02:11 PM (yBmlR)
272
Posted by: Daybrother at May 25, 2015 02:10 PM (ho6oy)
------
Do you have any idea what a 'jest' is?
------
Do you have any idea what a 'jest' is?
Posted by: RioBravo at May 25, 2015 02:13 PM (NUqwG)
Posted by: RioBravo at May 25, 2015 02:14 PM (NUqwG)
274
Freedom and liberty from government tyranny were always uniquely American to me because we were actually able to practice it.
Anybody who thinks we live in a free country today suffers a special form of delusion.
I don't really have much nice to say about America as a whole anymore, so out of respect I'll just save the rest for another day.
Anybody who thinks we live in a free country today suffers a special form of delusion.
I don't really have much nice to say about America as a whole anymore, so out of respect I'll just save the rest for another day.
Posted by: Blano at May 25, 2015 02:14 PM (cIoI4)
Posted by: Daybrother at May 25, 2015 02:15 PM (ho6oy)
276
Gentlemen! You cannot fight in here. This is the War Room!
Posted by: Alberta Oil Peon at May 25, 2015 02:20 PM (pjnob)
277
The most Americsn value is telling some officious little pr-ck to go eff themselves
Posted by: Trump at May 25, 2015 02:21 PM (EQcBC)
278
I know I am late to this, but what exemplifies America to me is this.... We have a neighbor with a deplyed husband who is 7 months pregnant. Been busy helping her move. THAT is who we are.
Posted by: FCF at May 25, 2015 02:25 PM (kejii)
279
We have a neighbor with a deplyed husband who is 7 months pregnant. Been busy helping her move. THAT is who we are.
---
Yes!
Also, we rescue cats from trees.
It's those small acts of caring that often matter most.
---
Yes!
Also, we rescue cats from trees.
It's those small acts of caring that often matter most.
Posted by: Y-not at May 25, 2015 02:53 PM (RWGcK)
280
Not this thread, please. Thanks.
- Y-not
- Y-not
Posted by: Bailey at May 25, 2015 03:03 PM (W14tv)
281
To me America always meant a place where I could be left to my own devices--I could aspire, and I could achieve. My poor-as-dirt southern parents came north to better their lives and raised 5 solidly middle-class children. My children are all college graduates with fewer chances at economic success than their grandfather, who never graduated high school, had. Then, I read little Yasmeen's tweet and the response and wonder if this country and culture are doomed. Will my children (who are more conservative than I am) and their children be forced to self-segregate in enclaves like the Amish to avoid the cultural cesspool that American has become? The economic conditions of 2008 bankrupted me, and the IRS completed the job when they penalized me for using my 401k money to live on when my husband was laid off for 16 months (Fidelity refused to grant us a hardship withdrawal). I have no optimism left for this experiment, and yet there is no place else on earth to go. What do we do when hope seems lost?
Posted by: Rana at May 25, 2015 03:47 PM (2u0/J)
282
I am not even sure we ARE Americans. The constitution applies to Americans, not Spanish, or Brits.... The rights RECOGNIZED are protected.... For Americans. Are these rights protected for you? Me? Do I fully enjoy these freedoms and rights, unhindered? If not, then the constitution and it's very plain language recognizing the rights and freedoms of Americans doesn't apply to me. Therefore I must not be an American. I am inside the country legally, but not entirely free to manage my own affairs. I am either a circus animal, or simple property.
Posted by: Jmark at May 25, 2015 06:25 PM (Lnf+d)
283
"This is free ground. All the way from here to the Pacific Ocean. No man has to bow. No man born to royalty. Here we judge you by what you do, not by who your father was. Here you can be something. Here's a place to build a home. It isn't the land -- there's always more land. It's the idea that we all have value, you and me, we're worth something more than the dirt. I never saw dirt I'd die for, but I'm not asking you to come join us and fight for dirt. What we're all fighting for, in the end, is each other..." -- Michael Shaara, The Killer Angels
Posted by: Redolent at May 25, 2015 06:58 PM (uSM1W)
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