Reform Conservatism....The Way Forward Or Warmed Over Compassionate Conservatism?

There's a huge debate going on within the conservative wonk class over the direction conservatism should take in the future. It's a debate that occasionally pops into the more mainstream discussions but is really being played out in think tanks and presidential campaign policy shops.

In the broadest strokes the "reform conservatives," who despite their protestations, represent the "compassionate conservative" view of government as an important player in people's lives. They basically think the federal government should focus on targeted policies (like larger child tax credits) as well as "empower" and fund institutions at the state and local level to help people navigate this messy thing called life.

Here's Yuval Levin, one of the recognized leaders of the "reformicon" camp writing in Reason's roundtable on the nature of "reform conservatism".

This regard for mediating institutions is reinforced by our sense of the limits of human knowledge and power. Because we think the human person is something of a mess, and because we think societies and their members flourish through mediating institutions, we are very skeptical of claims of rational control and technocratic management. Large social problems are too complicated to be amenable to centralized, wholesale, technical solutions and instead require decentralized, bottom-up, incremental ones. Societies evolve and improve and solve practical problems not by consolidated jerks of authority from above but by diffuse trial and error from below. Allowing society's institutions and members the freedom for such efforts is more likely to make society smarter than allowing technical experts to manage large systems.
When a society is allowed to become smarter through such institutions, it usually does so in a particular way: by allowing people to try different approaches to meeting the needs of their fellows, allowing the people who have those needs to choose among the options they are offered, and allowing those choices to matter so that successes are retained and failures go away. These three steps—experimentation, evaluation, and evolution—offer a kind of general recipe for addressing complex social problems while respecting human liberty and acknowledging the limits of human knowledge and power.

Representing the competing camp, generally considered Libertarian-populism or in Charles Cooke's formulation "Conservatarian", is Ben Domenich.

As the 21st Century conservatism's most industrious public intellectual and the leading voice for reform conservatism, Yuval Levin has presented a thoughtful and philosophically consistent essay underpinning the disparate ideas that have come to be regarded as the "reform conservative" agenda. He attempts a challenging feat: to offer a coherent and an inspirational case for what are effectively a series of dry public policy white papers. But when you set Levin's deep understanding of conservatism alongside the modern poll-tested policy bullet points of reform conservatism, the weakness of the reformocon agenda become readily apparent. Levin's lofty governing philosophy is at odds with the incongruent grab bag of policies that reformocons offer.
...
Levin's essay is infused with this tension. In the first half, we see expressions of common ground with those who believe in limited government: man is fallible and private institutions and markets are best. But in the second half, the policy approaches favor more activist government—which is run by man and inherently non-market—"to help society address the challenges it faces... and give people more reasons to play active roles in their communities." These two views cannot be reconciled, and no amount of "market-oriented" language—in reform conservatism as in Romneycare and Obamacare—can address government's inherent and fundamental flaws.

You really should read both articles and the rest in the series. This is an important debate going on and whichever candidate you wind up supporting in the primary is likely to broadly fall into one of these camps. Well, there's a third camp, the business friendly go-along get along GOP we all know and hate. But enough about Jeb.

Neither essay is terribly long (combined they are shorter than the traditional AoS movie review) but it was hard to pull a reasonable sampling of both because they cover a lot of important ground.

As you might guess, I'm in the Domench camp (save the libertarian love of nearly unfettered immigration). The faith "reformicons" place in nimble and responsive government doesn't exist in the real world. You can say the federal government will simply be a supportive player writing checks to worthy groups but the reality is always different. Government is control and control is destruction. There is no reforming it, there is no guiding it into wise and benevolent action. It's a wild beast that must be kept away from important and breakable things. You can never turn your back on it and you can never give those who claim to be able to use it in way you'll like an inch. It will quickly morph into a mile and you won't like the results. The "mediating institutions" that partner with the reform conservative style of government will find out it's a lot like partnering with the current style of government and they won't like it.

As our Andy so wonderfully put it, the ratchet only ever turns one way. Either you have faith in individuals to be the judge of their desires and the best ways to realize them or you think the government does. It's much more of a zero-sum game than proponents of government "help" on the left and right will ever admit.

Posted by: DrewM. at 10:49 AM

Comments

(Jump to bottom of comments)

1 Now to read the content

Posted by: Village Idiot's Apprentice at May 21, 2015 10:52 AM (VPLuQ)

2 Happy Labor Day! *hic*

Posted by: Joe Biden at May 21, 2015 10:54 AM (NPgvx)

3 We're already well on our way to becoming a Borg society. It won't be fair and it won't be just

Posted by: Ignoramus at May 21, 2015 10:57 AM (hq8kw)

4 How about we try to do it the way the Founders intended?

Posted by: Garrett at May 21, 2015 10:57 AM (GSTJs)

5 I'm of the third camp. Strict budgets that cap expenditures as a fixed percentage of GDP. We'll help, but only so much. Safety net, not hammock.

Posted by: SE Pa Moron at May 21, 2015 10:57 AM (xQX/f)

6
How about we try to do it the way the Founders intended?
Not prudent

Posted by: Velvet Ambition at May 21, 2015 10:58 AM (R8hU8)

7 I'm a huge fan of Yuval Levin's formulation of mediating institutions, because we SHOULD recognize that there's more to the culture than just the state and the individual, but that framework doesn't justify the actual policies reform conservatives tend to support. I oppose those policies because they won't work electorally or fiscally: they won't draw any enthusiasm from voters, and they won't actually pull us away from the cliff.

If reform conservative has policies that aren't justified by the stated principles, the libertarians tend to have principles that they apply thoughtlessly, resulting in disastrous policies, particularly with immigration. Individuals are more than just economic units, and in terms of both culture AND electoral politics, unlimited immigration would radically change this country and prevent any real efforts at implementing the rest of the libertarian agenda.

Too many conservative pundits don't REALLY seem to understand the threats of both big government and rampant immigration, Steyn being the most prominent and skillful exception.

Posted by: Bubba at May 21, 2015 10:58 AM (bpn7O)

8 Anybody here seen my old friend Michael?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walking up over the hill
With Mumia, Malcolm , and Treyvon.

Posted by: The Great White Snark at May 21, 2015 10:59 AM (lKSyl)

9 Where'd everybody go?

Posted by: Dang at May 21, 2015 11:01 AM (XWo4d)

10 NONE OF THE ABOVE

Posted by: Bigby's Twiddling Thumbs at May 21, 2015 11:01 AM (3ZtZW)

11 Conservatism is so easy, straightforward, staring-you-in-the-face-obvious.

I don't understand why we need any debate.

Posted by: Ricardo Kill at May 21, 2015 11:01 AM (LA7Cm)

12 *farts in the mic, laughs*

Posted by: Dang at May 21, 2015 11:01 AM (XWo4d)

13 I can see myself supporting a reformicon agenda. But then, I can see myself supporting any agenda. Right up until election day.

Posted by: John Boner in Assless Chaps at May 21, 2015 11:01 AM (UtthR)

14 >>> How about we try to do it the way the Founders intended?

First, repeal the Constitution and reinstate the Articles of Confederation.

Posted by: Bigby's Twiddling Thumbs at May 21, 2015 11:02 AM (3ZtZW)

15 So with uncontrolled immigration, the US has turned into the crazy cat lady -- taking in every stray to the point of turning into a giant litter box.

Compassion to the point of killing the host and turning the rescued into an uncontrollable feral gang is unconscionable.

Posted by: mustbequantum at May 21, 2015 11:02 AM (MIKMs)

16 mediating institutions

He misspelled meddling.

Posted by: Count de Monet at May 21, 2015 11:04 AM (JO9+V)

17 All of us down at the Brattleboro Women's Reproductive Health Choice
Clinicwant to wish Presdent Obama a Happy memeroil Day and Thank You for solving all the problems Bush started. the economy is great, no wars, the world loves us because of our Presdent of Color, and the advances to help persons of color are just tremendous. We also love your beatiful and intelligant wife micheal and your lovely children of color. We love you and keeps up the goood work.

Posted by: Mary Clogginstein from Brattleboro, VT at May 21, 2015 11:04 AM (lNSdJ)

18 My final shows were full of white privilege just like JC's.

Posted by: David Letterman at May 21, 2015 11:06 AM (NPgvx)

19
Now to read the content

Posted by: Village Idiot's Apprentice at May 21, 2015 10:52 AM (VPLuQ)

No True Moron would read the content before commenting.

Posted by: IllTemperedCur at May 21, 2015 11:06 AM (lpeQC)

20 We need to reform Conservatism to the right.

End Withholding, wait two election cycles, the debate fiscal policies with an "informed" Congress.

Operation Wetback II, because I'm racist and want to end the exploitation of the hispanic poor.

Work and Student VIsa's should require the fronting of a significant bond by the sponsoring institution. Tourist visa need a personal bond.

Put all of the broadcast TV spectrum up for bid, make the networks compete against the cell phone companies. This should cut the salaries of our betters a bit.

I could go on all day.

Posted by: Jean at May 21, 2015 11:06 AM (ztOda)

21 over the direction conservatism should take in the future

I think I have spotted the problem...

Posted by: WFB - standing astride history yelling 'STOP' at May 21, 2015 11:07 AM (NUCTk)

22 I support neither.

Posted by: Zombie Edmund Burke at May 21, 2015 11:08 AM (7YlUk)

23 I find I'm of a fourth camp that I don't have an adequate name for. Largely I am of the second type, but with a twist: In those areas where government does have its limited mandates, they should always be exercised in a way that favors and furthers Enlightenment-style Western culture. This is for the very simple reason that that's the only one with a proven track record for improving the human condition and furthering human wealth and knowledge.

Any other stance is cutting your own throat, so far as I can see. Culture matters.

Posted by: Charles Darwin at May 21, 2015 11:08 AM (DT3rQ)

24 I'm for smaller government but still believe it's not a bad thing for the government to have programs to assist the truly needy. It's not an all or nothing issue .

Posted by: Cruzinator at May 21, 2015 11:08 AM (8cSVB)

25 Evolved sock gone.

Posted by: Brother Cavil, down with Eph 6:12 at May 21, 2015 11:08 AM (DT3rQ)

26 15 So with uncontrolled immigration, the US has turned into the crazy cat lady -- taking in every stray to the point of turning into a giant litter box.

--

good analogy

Posted by: @votermom at May 21, 2015 11:09 AM (cbfNE)

27 If the administrative state is constitutional then arguing over high blown conceptual views is important, because we need to develop a concept of what freedoms we are prepared to give up for the common good.

If the administrative state is extra-constitutional and illegitimate then the discussion is pointless, because the argument is merely rationalizing an illegal power grab by the state.

I vote #2.

Posted by: MTF at May 21, 2015 11:09 AM (FCsIb)

28 20
We need to reform Conservatism

Is there any Conservatism anywhere in this victimized-socialist-EEO-eco-fascist mess to be reformed?

Posted by: some random meathead at May 21, 2015 11:11 AM (NUCTk)

29 Go 'way. 'Baitin'.

Posted by: chiefjaybob at May 21, 2015 11:12 AM (2L77z)

30 How come Leftism never reforms?

Well, maybe it does.... Fabianism, Vanguardism, Maoism, etc. Are those reforms?

Posted by: Bigby's Twiddling Thumbs at May 21, 2015 11:12 AM (3ZtZW)

31 "a recipe for addressing complex social problems".

every time government does that it's a catastrophe of unseen consequences.

sounds like the synopsis of a sociology seminar.

Posted by: emily post at May 21, 2015 11:13 AM (CrYC8)

32 I am on the board of a Homeless Shelter, we could serve another 10,000 days of shelter without State and Federal mandates.

Posted by: Pallet Monger at May 21, 2015 11:13 AM (bR/LB)

33 Posted by: Mary Clogginstein from Brattleboro, VT at May 21, 2015 11:04 AM (lNSdJ)

Damn girl, your smoking the good stuff.

Posted by: wrg500 at May 21, 2015 11:14 AM (sWgE+)

34 The plushie memorial in Ferguson moved to the Urban League was found in the trash. Riot?

Posted by: Bruce But Not Jenner at May 21, 2015 11:14 AM (iQIUe)

35 We need to reform Conservatism to the right.

I'm confused. Does this mean we can or can't eat shellfish?

Posted by: Country Singer at May 21, 2015 11:15 AM (8hctH)

36 I'm confused. Does this mean we can or can't eat shellfish?

Posted by: Country Singer at May 21, 2015 11:15 AM (8hctH)

Only on high holy days

Posted by: wrg500 at May 21, 2015 11:16 AM (sWgE+)

37 much more of a zero-sum game than proponents of government "help"

.gov can't produce anything so it's negative-sum.

Posted by: DaveA at May 21, 2015 11:17 AM (DL2i+)

38
the Reason's roundtable....

Were the other people at the table whispering and giggling at Nick Gillespie's stupid Goth Fonzi* jacket?

*(c) Ace of Spades ltd

Posted by: Laurie David's Cervix at May 21, 2015 11:17 AM (kdS6q)

39 ... and an excuse to accept every entitlement and bureaucratic diktat as they stand.

Posted by: emily post at May 21, 2015 11:17 AM (CrYC8)

40 Whur my free shit at??

Posted by: half of the American Electorate at May 21, 2015 11:18 AM (NUCTk)

41 Governments are inherently stupid and brutish.
There's no reforming that basic fact.

Posted by: @votermom at May 21, 2015 11:18 AM (cbfNE)

42 I want a president who is completely committed to national defense and our military. I want a VP who is completely committed shutting down unnecessary agencies and voiding unnecessary regulations. That's it.

Posted by: Beth M at May 21, 2015 11:19 AM (kiy9d)

43 We call them Democrats. Or, what used to be Democrats. We now call Democrats communists.

Posted by: devan at May 21, 2015 11:20 AM (MtsMo)

44 Conform conservative.
Government is an important player in peoples lives.

--------------------------------------------------------------

Then one wouldn't be a conservative.
Government is important to power hungry, greedy, government officials. It is a danger to everyone else.

Posted by: OTB at May 21, 2015 11:20 AM (ShdUd)

45 Fabianism, Vanguardism, Maoism, etc.

At least Nero wasn't using the bow as a match.

Posted by: DaveA at May 21, 2015 11:20 AM (DL2i+)

46 But isn't big gubmint all the things we do together as a society?

I am a huge fan of Civil Society (all the things we do together without the govt.).

Posted by: Grampa Jimbo at May 21, 2015 11:20 AM (V70Uh)

47 You baggers can just argue amongst yourselves. We got this. Secret Legislation is the wave of the future!

Posted by: Bitch McConnell with a Dick in His Mouth at May 21, 2015 11:20 AM (UtthR)

48 Does this mean we can or can't eat shellfish?

Does surimi-crab count? What - it was on BOGO sale.

Lunch!

Posted by: DaveA at May 21, 2015 11:22 AM (DL2i+)

49 Statist libertarianism.
Now how fucked up is that?

Posted by: TexasJew at May 21, 2015 11:23 AM (yT7Mu)

50 I will appear on Dancing w/ the Stars wearing a mattress on my back. Remember: the lumpy thing w/ legs is me.

Posted by: Lena Dunham at May 21, 2015 11:23 AM (NPgvx)

51 O/T
aussie is back.

Bottom of the last thread.

Posted by: Village Idiot's Apprentice at May 21, 2015 11:24 AM (VPLuQ)

52 The ratchet turns both ways now. Saw one at Lowe's for $28.95.

Posted by: @PeeteySDee at May 21, 2015 11:28 AM (n41jX)

53 "The ratchet turns both ways now. Saw one at Lowe's for $28.95.'

Harbor Freight.

$2.67

Posted by: Village Idiot's Apprentice at May 21, 2015 11:28 AM (VPLuQ)

54
Now to read the content

New around here?

Posted by: Bandersnatch at May 21, 2015 11:28 AM (JtwS4)

55 At the very least, I want to know that our next president understands this country is in a downward spiral and that has to be corrected. I want to hear realistic proposals - not politi-speak platitudes - about how to change course.

Posted by: Beth M at May 21, 2015 11:30 AM (kiy9d)

56 In the broadest strokes the "reform conservatives," who despite their protestations, represent the "compassionate conservative" view of government as an important player in people's lives.

The only reform I want to see from them is to get back to the Constitution as written.

Posted by: rickb223 Straight, Conservative Clinger at May 21, 2015 11:30 AM (J31vi)

57 >>Now to read the content

But first...

Posted by: Garrett at May 21, 2015 11:31 AM (GSTJs)

58 "Now to read the content

New around here?"

Just wanted to toss Drew a bone.

Posted by: Village Idiot's Apprentice at May 21, 2015 11:31 AM (VPLuQ)

59 Why should I subsidize someone else's children? I prefer a flat tax with zero deductions. Around 8% would do it.

Posted by: Vic We Have No Party at May 21, 2015 11:31 AM (GpgJl)

60 This reminds me of a Jonah Goldberg column from a while back (you may know him, he wrote a new book called Liberal Fascism).

His aim was to contrast conservatism with libertarianism. What made me look twice was that he used an example of a conservative case for the department of education. His thesis was that if the DOE was teaching conservative values then it would be a powerful thing...and it's the best we could hope for, because that building full of bureaucrats aren't going anywhere. So the best thing (in his opinion) is to co-opt the DOE and turn it to conservative ends.

To me that seems to cede the argument to the Left. Once you accept the idea that government has a role in something like that, then what follows isn't really "conservative" in my mind, even if that role pursues ostensibly conservative goals.

It's a debate that's been going on for a long time.

Posted by: @JohnTant at May 21, 2015 11:32 AM (PFy0L)

61 "O/T
aussie is back. "

Crikey!

Posted by: Ricardo Kill at May 21, 2015 11:32 AM (LA7Cm)

62 I don't think it's reform-able. Look at the rest of the world....the US is the lone holdout from going full blown socialist. It's a losing battle because most people when presented with the option of working for stuff vs getting free stuff from the govt, will choose the freebies.

Posted by: HUCK / AKIN 2016 at May 21, 2015 11:32 AM (0LHZx)

63
I have a dream..a dream that someday the federal govt will only provide a basic structure for commerce.....

*record scratches to a halt* Yeah, won't happen.

Nevertheless, I would think true conservatives (trucons as some people mock) would call simply for an elimination of most 'Great Society' programs and a low simple tax structure. No white papers needed and watch the economy grow by leaps and bounds.

Posted by: Guy Mohawk at May 21, 2015 11:33 AM (ODxAs)

64 Democrats are offering me all sorts of monetary incentives to support the Democrat Party.

What are Republicans willing to offer?

Republicans have $4 trillion annually at their disposal to buy votes with. How come it's only Democrats who are willing to use our tax dollars to buy my vote?

Here's my deal: If Republicans want my vote, show me the fucking money.

Posted by: someguy at May 21, 2015 11:34 AM (3z91g)

65 "Harbor Freight. "

Seriously.

They do sell some junk but they also have some decent stuff that's not outrageous. Especially for occasional/around the house stuff.

Posted by: Ricardo Kill at May 21, 2015 11:34 AM (LA7Cm)

66 >>aussie is back.

Now is the time on AoSHQ when we Waltz.

Posted by: Mathilda at May 21, 2015 11:34 AM (GSTJs)

67 60 This reminds me of a Jonah Goldberg column from a while back (you may know him, he wrote a new book called Liberal Fascism).

His aim was to contrast conservatism with libertarianism. What made me look twice was that he used an example of a conservative case for the department of education. His thesis was that if the DOE was teaching conservative values then it would be a powerful thing...and it's the best we could hope for, because that building full of bureaucrats aren't going anywhere. So the best thing (in his opinion) is to co-opt the DOE and turn it to conservative ends.

To me that seems to cede the argument to the Left. Once you accept the idea that government has a role in something like that, then what follows isn't really "conservative" in my mind, even if that role pursues ostensibly conservative goals.

It's a debate that's been going on for a long time.
Posted by: @JohnTant at May 21, 2015 11:32 AM (PFy0L)

__________

That's essentially what happened in the UK and Canada. The Conservative party's platform in both countries is "we will manage the govt behemoth better than Labor". It's never "we will make the govt behemoth smaller".

Posted by: HUCK / AKIN 2016 at May 21, 2015 11:34 AM (0LHZx)

68 Compassionate conservatism has been a big winner in the past, it just makes good sense to stay the course!

Posted by: Chupacabras at May 21, 2015 11:34 AM (5npD/)

69 I blame SOKONZ!

Posted by: Akin/Huck 2016 at May 21, 2015 11:35 AM (NUCTk)

70 It's a losing battle because most people when presented with the option of working for stuff vs getting free stuff from the govt, will choose the freebies.

Most people in your neighborhood. Not mine, Sid.

Posted by: SE Pa Moron at May 21, 2015 11:35 AM (xQX/f)

71 OT (and I hate to support CNN, but...) this is an excellent short video report on the Chinese navy in the Spratleys. Their activity is starting to unnerve civilian airplane traffic, as it should.

http://cnn.it/1Hw3CPo

Posted by: MTF at May 21, 2015 11:36 AM (FCsIb)

72 Why should I subsidize someone else's children? I prefer a flat tax with zero deductions.

If I wasn't involved in the making, don't expect me to be involved in the paying.

Posted by: rickb223 Straight, Conservative Clinger at May 21, 2015 11:36 AM (J31vi)

73 Why don't we just use what the founders used? The HOLY BIBLE, the Declaration, Constitution, and Bill Of Rights? Those are perfect guidelines for anybody, be they a politician or a real human being.

Posted by: Eromero at May 21, 2015 11:36 AM (go5uR)

74 70 It's a losing battle because most people when presented with the option of working for stuff vs getting free stuff from the govt, will choose the freebies.

Most people in your neighborhood. Not mine, Sid.
Posted by: SE Pa Moron at May 21, 2015 11:35 AM (xQX/f)

____________

WTF are you talking about? Look around you. There are 110M people on some sort of welfare in this country.

Posted by: HUCK / AKIN 2016 at May 21, 2015 11:37 AM (0LHZx)

75 Get almost everyone hooked on the free stuff, that's the plan.

Posted by: colin at May 21, 2015 11:37 AM (rOQws)

76 Compassionate conservatism has been a big winner in the past, it just makes good sense to stay the course!
________

Crazy Cat Lady conservatism

Posted by: mustbequantum at May 21, 2015 11:37 AM (MIKMs)

77 Tangentially OT:

From the Ted Cruz sidebar link: those videos are chironed "Ted Cruz refuses to deny animosity against gay Americans."

I'm pretty much ready for the end to come now.

Posted by: TexasDan at May 21, 2015 11:37 AM (TqXWc)

78 Moo! Moo!

Posted by: Akin/Huck 2016 at May 21, 2015 11:37 AM (NUCTk)

79 Now is the time on AoSHQ when we ~~Waltz~~ do the Snoopy dance of happiness.

*points nose in air, and taps feet furiously*

Posted by: Village Idiot's Apprentice at May 21, 2015 11:38 AM (VPLuQ)

80 WTF are you talking about? Look around you. There are 110M people on some sort of welfare in this country.

Not in my neighborhood, Sid.

Posted by: SE Pa Moron at May 21, 2015 11:38 AM (xQX/f)

81 OT- I cannot stand what has hppened to this country. Had some surly foregners show p last week. Kicked em off property as they hd no ID or anything. Now their manager shows up calls me a bigot amd spits chew at my feet literally. I HATE WHAT has happened in this land.

Posted by: Baldy at May 21, 2015 11:39 AM (sEXjW)

82 The biggest problem with any model that allows for more intrusion and control into individual's lives is - human nature.

And the biggest problem with human nature is - self interest.

Government allows bureaucrats to satisfy their self interest at the expense of those "served" by the bureaucracy, and the more that self interest is satisfied, the more "valuable" is the service provided.

All of this happy crap about compassion would be great if it wasn't for human nature.

Posted by: LoneStarHeeb at May 21, 2015 11:39 AM (BZAd3)

83 You're not going to get more FSA votes by promising less cheddar, you're going to lose conservative votes as evidenced by the last few elections, and all you might get is some of the middle.

Which is a small enough number to ensure you'll never win another election.

For some smart people, they sure do argue dumb.

Posted by: Chupacabras at May 21, 2015 11:40 AM (5npD/)

84 I don't need anyone else's ideas on the direction of conservatism. I already know what direction it needs to take. It's the fucking GOP establishment who desperately needs a hard combat boot kick in the ass in the right direction. Fuck their lame assed discussions. Get with the program idiots.

Posted by: maddogg at May 21, 2015 11:40 AM (xWW96)

85 67 That's essentially what happened in the UK and Canada. The Conservative party's platform in both countries is "we will manage the govt behemoth better than Labor". It's never "we will make the govt behemoth smaller".
=======================

I agree, and it goes to the point I was making in #27.

If the argument turns on whose vision guides these institutions, then we've already lost. Its the legitimacy of their very existence that should be challenged.

Posted by: MTF at May 21, 2015 11:40 AM (FCsIb)

86 Now is the time on AoSHQ when we do the Snoopy dance of happiness.

*points nose in air, and taps feet furiously*

Hit it Linus!

Posted by: rickb223 Straight, Conservative Clinger at May 21, 2015 11:40 AM (J31vi)

87
much more of a zero-sum game than proponents of government "help"

.gov can't produce anything so it's negative-sum.

Posted by: DaveA at May 21, 2015 11:17 AM (DL2i+)

Not true. .gov can produce one thing, and one thing only.

Death and destruction.

Okay, maybe that's two things.

But in a proper government, DandD is produced OUTSIDE our borders, by the military and the Department of War, maybe the Department of State. Coincidentally, those are pretty much the only cabinet departments that actually have a basis in the Constitution.

Posted by: IllTemperedCur at May 21, 2015 11:40 AM (lpeQC)

88 All of this happy crap about compassion would be great if it wasn't for human nature.

Posted by: LoneStarHeeb at May 21, 2015 11:39 AM (BZAd3)

Thats why it's crap.

Posted by: maddogg at May 21, 2015 11:41 AM (xWW96)

89 It's much more of a zero-sum game than proponents of government "help" on the left and right will ever admit.

That is it. That right there.

Nose in the tent and just the tip and your mouth and a little bit pregnant and all of that are the more colorful ways of putting that.

Government is made up of human beings. Human beings, in general and in the specific, are fallible, greedy, selfish, short sighted, egocentric power mad grubbers of status and wealth. But enough about me.

Why it is that some variants of conservatives, whose political theory is based on the fallen nature of man, somehow heave that out the window about when humans are in government positions is beyond me.

I can sort of squint and see a discussion that we should devolve power to state and local agencies while we are in the process of getting rid of the programs. But the getting rid of the programs part never quite seems to be in play, now, does it?

Posted by: alexthechick - Oh please intervene SMOD at May 21, 2015 11:41 AM (mf5HN)

90
Did anyone tell aussie to come to this thread? I want to give her a wildly inappropriate hug.

And remind her that she owes us pajama pictures.

Posted by: Bandersnatch at May 21, 2015 11:42 AM (JtwS4)

91 What to know what is more a fantasy than Sasquatch? Fucking compassionate government, that's what.

Posted by: maddogg at May 21, 2015 11:43 AM (xWW96)

92 Such a pain typing on the phone with fat fingers *on a mini holiday away from laptop*

Hello from Way Down Here early Friday morning and I was astounded to hear on the news that our Prime Minister Tony Abbott has been called callous because he won't bring in the boat people leaving Bangladesh and Burma who are floating around in an area no where near OZ
I was very cranky at this bit of nonsense!

Posted by: aussie at May 21, 2015 11:43 AM (X/4BN)

93 Want to talk reform? OK, here's my take.
First:
We (re-)establish accountability in ALL levels of government. IRS employees not paying taxes? You have 15 days to pay in full plus penalties or you are fired, and permanently banned from federal employment forever.
Same goes to the VA miscreants, EPA, DOJ, DOE, and any other ne'er-do-wells. Managers try to protect employees? Guess what - that is your last task in federal employment. BANNED forever. Political employees? Enforce the law and policies. Impeached and forever banned if you don't.

Second:
Top down review of each agency. Find overlapping services and streamline. Failure to do so - see above.

Third:
Though this should be first - FOLLOW THE D*MN CONSTITUTION. LITERALLY. Any bill coming out of the House or Senate must cite the specific clause that authorizes that piece of legislation.

Fourth:
Mandatory 5 day waiting period before legislation voted on so as to allow the public an opportunity to read the legislation. We asked for this before and Boner and the other Republican elites gave it up faster than a $5 whore.

And I'm just warming up. Hmmm, perhaps I should pen a manifesto?

Posted by: OurCountryIsScrewed at May 21, 2015 11:43 AM (DlmoZ)

94
"O/T
aussie is back. "

Crikey!

Posted by: Ricardo Kill at May 21, 2015 11:32 AM (LA7Cm)

Let's throw a shrimp on the barbie!

The non-kosher kind, not the pajama-boy kind.

Posted by: IllTemperedCur at May 21, 2015 11:44 AM (lpeQC)

95 The ONLY thing big government does well is fuck shit up.

Posted by: maddogg at May 21, 2015 11:45 AM (xWW96)

96 A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only
exist until the majority discovers it can vote itself largess out of the
public treasury.

Posted by: Elmer T Peterson at May 21, 2015 11:45 AM (NUCTk)

97 "direction conservatism should take in the future"

I'm going to read the rest of the piece now, but that line right there is the problem. Conservatism doesn't take directions. It IS a direction!

Now... let's see what our think tank heroes have to say on the topic...

Posted by: BurtTC at May 21, 2015 11:45 AM (TOk1P)

98
Why it is that some variants of conservatives, whose political theory is based on the fallen nature of man, somehow heave that out the window about when humans are in government positions is beyond me.

I will now ~~butcher~~ approximate a P.J. O'Rourke quote:

"Democrats believe that Man is basically good, and needs lots of rules to keep him in line. Republicans believe that Man is basically bad, but will do fine if left pretty much on his own".

Posted by: Bandersnatch at May 21, 2015 11:45 AM (JtwS4)

99 Posted by: Village Idiot's Apprentice at May 21, 2015 11:24 AM (VPLuQ)

Thank G-d. I knew she had a bunch of stuff going on and hoped she was just lurking but was getting worried. I hope she knows how much the Horde missed her.

Posted by: Polliwog the 'Ette at May 21, 2015 11:46 AM (GDulk)

100 aussie!

*gives totally appropriate hug*

If the administrative state is constitutional

I vote #2.
Posted by: MTF at May 21, 2015 11:09 AM (FCsIb)

ARRRRGGGHHHHH

*flamethrow twitches*

Posted by: alexthechick - Oh please intervene SMOD at May 21, 2015 11:46 AM (mf5HN)

101 A lot of verbal masturbation.

The biggest problem with pubbies/conservatives is that they are all gutless fucking cowards.

Until that issue is addressed, nothing else matters.

Posted by: D. Hopper at May 21, 2015 11:46 AM (Jfe40)

102 >>And remind her that she owes us pajama pictures.

She was supposed to get me Elle Macpherson's number, too.

Posted by: Garrett at May 21, 2015 11:47 AM (GSTJs)

103 The founders were never opposed to local and state governments having to power to implement "programs". They just didn't want to have that power centralized precisely for [points to the sludgy, corrupt mess that is our present government] that.

Posted by: LoneStarHeeb at May 21, 2015 11:47 AM (BZAd3)

104 I always find it incongruous that people who would never, under any circumstance, allow a stranger to watch their children or hold their wallets are able to trust "government". Which consists entirely of such untrustworthy people.

Posted by: Tom at May 21, 2015 11:49 AM (TjRa5)

105 I'm leery of anyone who wants to use the tax code to "promote social good." It's a revenue generator pure and simple. Stop picking winners and losers and just skim a certain percentage off the top. Leave me the fukc alone.

Posted by: no good deed at May 21, 2015 11:49 AM (GgxVX)

106 The issue for me is it's hard to sometimes find reconciliation with the way I think things "ought to be" and what I think is possible to achieve through the political process.

I just don't think we're ever going to have an Ayn Rand-type electorate, so to me the best way we can play a losing hand is to at least point these government policies and agencies in the direction we want them rather than spinning our wheels at "wishcasting" that we get rid of them.

Take MediCare for example, a voucher type system would be far better than the current status quo and would at least point health care in a more free market direction, but it is a compromise with those that would say it would be better to simply disband the whole program, which just isn't politically realistic.

Posted by: McAdams at May 21, 2015 11:49 AM (ijcxA)

107 Wonk 1: "the deck chairs should be in rows!"
Wonk 2: "the deck chairs should be in circles!"

Meanwhile the ship of state, burning and popping rivets left and right, sinks ever deeper - past all saving.

This culture has the Boy Scouts banning water balloon fights. SJWs can have you tossed from your job for making a joke they don't like. The govt thugs can steal your property and call it civil forfeiture with TOTAL IMPUNITY. A woman can throw man in jail with nothing more than a word. The so-called education system is bent on turning your sons into weaklings and your daughters into whores. Most marriages end in frivorse, as bored wives seek socially-approved relief from their boredom - for which they are rewarded with cash and prizes. God is mocked, yet mohamed is above reproach. Our president spits on our nation's allies and gives aid and comfort to its enemies, and the power elite does nothing to defend the nation from his treason.

IT. IS. OVER.

Find your life boat, pack it with the stuff you can grab and the people you love, and start working to get out of this ship's wake. When it goes down, it will take a lot of folks down with it.

Posted by: Reactionary at May 21, 2015 11:50 AM (reacA)

108
you gotta fight,

*hic*

for your right

to PARRRTAY!

Posted by: John 'Dick' Boehner at May 21, 2015 11:50 AM (NUCTk)

109 The government has taken the place of parents in most minority households, you can see the result all over the news. The government can visit it's kids in the prisons. Who needs Dads when they have compassionate government?

Posted by: maddogg at May 21, 2015 11:51 AM (xWW96)

110 Levin and the like, ignore the omnipresent financial crisis of sovereign debt, and propose rearranging chairs on the deck of the Titanic. What will happen is that we would simply borrow more money to disburse to people that would do the same thing anyway. Given the cost to raise a child far outweighs even massively increasing the child tax benefit given providing for housing, medical expenses, college, consumer goods, etc., any government incentive for additional children will have little effect. BTW, France, Sweden, etc. have extensive neo-natal support--financial and things like universal child care. Despite the cradle to grave support, fertility of the native population is still below replacement in Europe.

For example, in France, the primary growth in children seems to be the immigrant Muslim community and I would imagine the same increased fertility is primarily immigrants in Sweden as well. In general, though, it has not nudged the native population's fertility to much above replacement levels--E.g. French native population 1.8-1.9 while overall 2.08, Sweden's native population at 1.7 births to Swedish immigrants 2.1 birthrate that I have gleaned from conference papers.

Levin's refusal to address this issue smacks of simply trying to outbid the Dems in 2016 similarly to Medicare Part D in the 2000 election. It will boost the debt and as a result might actually reduce fertility even more than the modest, if any, boost from the child care credit. Fertility of native populations seems to be affected by the general state of the external economy as much as anything. Bad economy equals lower fertility plus delayed time to first child. Why immigrants from the Third World have more fertility is that probably they perceive economic opportunity to be greater than their home country--thus more children. Thus, Levin's policy which produces more debt and thus less fertility due to worsening economic conditions via debt, would mean for Levin that the child tax credit needs to be increased even more along with admitting fertile immigrants who will do the jobs and have the babies that Americans refuse to do.

This is a familiar shibboleth on the left that declares if only more money would be spent then utopia would happen. It is idiocy when the Right adopts this idea.

As for Levin and the similar leftovers from the Bush administrations, a quote from Talleyrand about the failed line of Bourbon kings seems apropos: "they had learned nothing and forgotten nothing". These people should be nowhere near the levers of power in a 2016 Republican administration.

Posted by: wg at May 21, 2015 11:51 AM (6CwMF)

111 WTF are you talking about? Look around you. There are 110M people on some sort of welfare in this country.

Not in my neighborhood, Sid.
Posted by: SE Pa Moron at May 21, 2015 11:38 AM (xQX/f)

SE Pa moron,
By some sort of welfare, the poster is referring to the insidious types of "welfare". Stuff like farm subsidies, energy grants to people who put in 'green lights", Snap benefits for children, subsidized school lunches, social security disability, etc. There are so many programs now that give money or free stuff to people that are not the stereotypical 'food stamps" welfare benefits. Walk into any cell phone store and you cannot look anywhere without seeing a sign telling you how to sign up for a free phone and minutes.
These are the programs that have now ensnared 110 M people.
Talk to a farmer about removing their subsidies...that same farmer will yell about urban people on welfare, but finds subsidies to be the not remotely the same.....

Posted by: Jen the original at May 21, 2015 11:52 AM (JaIou)

112 I agree, and it goes to the point I was making in #27.

If the argument turns on whose vision guides these institutions, then we've already lost. Its the legitimacy of their very existence that should be challenged.
Posted by: MTF at May 21, 2015 11:40 AM (FCsIb)

Exactly. We (both sides) have let ourselves become accustomed to hearing from our candidates the promises of what government will do for us once they are in power. Instead, we should re-accustom ourselves to voting for the candidates who promise that they will make government do less for us.

Posted by: LoneStarHeeb at May 21, 2015 11:52 AM (BZAd3)

113
I'm leery of anyone who wants to use the tax code to "promote social good." It's a revenue generator pure and simple. Stop picking winners and losers and just skim a certain percentage off the top. Leave me the fukc alone

Tax incentives are important.

When my wife and I had finished our respective graduate schools, travelled the world some, and were ready to settle down and create a new life we gazed lovingly into each other's eyes and said

"let's make a tax deduction".

Posted by: Bandersnatch at May 21, 2015 11:52 AM (JtwS4)

114 "Govern" is an active verb, much like "fuck." And it shares pretty much the same meaning.

Posted by: jwpaine at May 21, 2015 11:53 AM (0bXhD)

115 @60
It's also much the same debate as that outlined by Levin in "The Great Debate", a history of the arguments between Edmund Burke and Thomas Paine. To his credit, Levin made it very difficult to discern on which side he came down. I found myself going back and forth with the arguments of two very formidable thinkers.

If the topic of this post is of interest, the book will be very rewarding.

Posted by: Walter Peck at May 21, 2015 11:54 AM (GMG6W)

116 But isn't big gubmint all the things we do together as a society?

Posted by: Grampa Jimbo at May 21, 2015 11:20 AM (V70Uh)

Yeah, if your baseline is "clusterfuck."

Posted by: jwpaine at May 21, 2015 11:54 AM (0bXhD)

117 Yeah, pretty much what I thought. Ho hum, and on the debate goes...

Posted by: BurtTC at May 21, 2015 11:54 AM (TOk1P)

118 Arghhhh, Walter Peck = pep

Posted by: pep at May 21, 2015 11:54 AM (GMG6W)

119 Whur my free shit at??
Posted by: half of the American Electorate at May 21, 2015 11:18 AM (NUCTk)

MORE than half.

Posted by: Bertram Cabot Jr. at May 21, 2015 11:54 AM (W5DcG)

120 Our president spits on our nation's allies and gives aid and comfort to its enemies, and the power elite does nothing to defend the nation from his treason.

IT. IS. OVER.

Find your life boat, pack it with the stuff you can grab and the people you love, and start working to get out of this ship's wake. When it goes down, it will take a lot of folks down with it.

^^^^^^^^^^
THAT is Let It Burn in a nutshell.

Posted by: rickb223 Straight, Conservative Clinger at May 21, 2015 11:54 AM (J31vi)

121 As for Levin and the similar leftovers from the Bush administrations, a quote from Talleyrand about the failed line of Bourbon kings seems apropos: "they had learned nothing and forgotten nothing". These people should be nowhere near the levers of power in a 2016 Republican administration.
Posted by: wg at May 21, 2015 11:51 AM (6CwMF)

I don't really believe at all that you even listen to Levin. He talks about the magnitude of the debt and the doom it promises, all the time.

Posted by: LoneStarHeeb at May 21, 2015 11:55 AM (BZAd3)

122
Real govt power comes from taxes to punish and subsidies to corrupt.

Flat taxing and stop picking winners and losers would make a great country.

Yeah, won't happen.

Posted by: Guy Mohawk at May 21, 2015 11:55 AM (ODxAs)

123 Last Letterman show sucked. Just sayin'.

Posted by: Jon Stewart at May 21, 2015 11:55 AM (NPgvx)

124 How about

1)Cut in half the number of departments, number of employees, number of regulations of the Federal government.

2) Prosecute to the fullest extent of the law wrongdoing perpetrated by Federal employees (IRS, VA, EPA, State, etc.)

3)Cut back by 2/3 federal court power and oversight

Posted by: Ken at May 21, 2015 11:55 AM (LXJ1e)

125 *Inappropriate sexist whatever hugs* to you all!

I'm sitting on the balcony of our hotel here in Broadbeach *thinking of getting the mattress to make a statement to nobody* except my dear Aussie bloke is lying on it*snoring*

Posted by: aussie at May 21, 2015 11:56 AM (X/4BN)

126 Talk to a farmer about removing their
subsidies...that same farmer will yell about urban people on welfare,
but finds subsidies to be the not remotely the same.....

Posted by: Jen the original at May 21, 2015 11:52 AM (JaIou)

Yup. My small Iowa hometown has a lunch counter where all the farmers come in for coffee in the afternoon and bitch about the welfare recipients. One day I asked them if they are growing corn for ethanol, and of course all of them are. They weren't too pleased with me when I pointed out that the government subsidy of ethanol was a form of welfare.

Posted by: GGE of the Moron Horde, NC Chapter at May 21, 2015 11:56 AM (/2KMt)

127 Gold standard looking better all the time.

Posted by: maddogg at May 21, 2015 11:57 AM (xWW96)

128 levers of power in a 2016 Republican administration.
Posted by: wg at May 21, 2015 11:51 AM (6CwMF)

Dude. Wrong Levin. Abject apologies.

Posted by: LoneStarHeeb at May 21, 2015 11:57 AM (BZAd3)

129
Who you gonna make this case to?

The Dumb People dont want to hear this shit.

Posted by: Soothsayer at May 21, 2015 11:58 AM (OmJgC)

130 Dude. Wrong Levin. Abject apologies.

Posted by: LoneStarHeeb at May 21, 2015 11:57 AM (BZAd3)

Can we say all those Levins look alike?

Posted by: BurtTC at May 21, 2015 11:59 AM (TOk1P)

131 The Dumb People dont want to hear this shit.
Posted by: Soothsayer at May 21, 2015 11:58 AM (OmJgC)

Even retarded people can grasp general concepts. The job is to make the material relevant and interesting to them. Same as our retarded electorate.

Posted by: maddogg at May 21, 2015 11:59 AM (xWW96)

132 Jen the original at May 21, 2015 11:52 AM (JaIou)

I understand what you're saying. But I was attempting to goad Moo Moo Blumenthal into bragging about his neighborhood, his earnings, his penis size, etc.

The Clinton Foundation pays him to troll us, to dishearten us, to accept the inevitable HRC Presidency. Once you look at his comments from that point of view you tend to respond differently. I do, anyway.

Posted by: SE Pa Moron at May 21, 2015 11:59 AM (xQX/f)

133 Take MediCare for example, a voucher type system would be far better than the current status quo ...

Speaking of wishcasting.

There are too many oxes that would be gored there too to make it politically feasible. In general this is why let it burn is the optimistic course.

Posted by: Guy Mohawk at May 21, 2015 12:00 PM (ODxAs)

134
Posted by: GGE of the Moron Horde, NC Chapter at May 21, 2015 11:56 AM (/2KMt)

When welfare recipients start working for their payments I'll consider welfare and subsidies the same thing.

Posted by: Cruzinator at May 21, 2015 12:00 PM (8cSVB)

135 Tax incentives are important.

When my wife and I had finished our respective graduate schools, travelled the world some, and were ready to settle down and create a new life we gazed lovingly into each other's eyes and said

"let's make a tax deduction".
Posted by: Bandersnatch at May 21, 2015 11:52 AM (JtwS4)

I do know a couple who induced to be sure that the emspawnening took place before December 31 and not January 1 as it started looking was likely.

Of course, this is because they were having triplets and the reasoning was we need every penny extra that we can get. There may also have been just a wee bit, just a tiny little smidgen of the mom screaming GET THESE THINGS OUT OF ME NOW NOW NOWNOWNOW. That too.

Posted by: alexthechick - Oh please intervene SMOD at May 21, 2015 12:00 PM (mf5HN)

136 Forgot to add that I'm not for ethanol corn growing subsidies.

Posted by: Cruzinator at May 21, 2015 12:01 PM (8cSVB)

137 Can SMOD be far behind???

Regarding POS Daron Dylon Wint-

'He's very hostile,' an unidentified family member told ABC News of the suspect. 'He's arrogant. He doesn't listen.'

Posted by: RWC - Team BOHICA at May 21, 2015 12:02 PM (fWAjv)

138 When welfare recipients start working for their payments I'll consider welfare and subsidies the same thing.

Posted by: Cruzinator at May 21, 2015 12:00 PM (8cSVB)

If the government has to subsidize it, it's not ready for prime time therefore it is welfare. The only difference is who is getting it.

Posted by: GGE of the Moron Horde, NC Chapter at May 21, 2015 12:02 PM (/2KMt)

139 Shit. I know shit's bad right now, with all that starving bullshit, and
the dust storms, and we are running out of french fries and burrito
coverings.

But I got a solution.

Posted by: President Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho at May 21, 2015 12:02 PM (NUCTk)

140 The term "compassionate conservative" always stuck in my craw. Oh, you mean "compassionate" as opposed to regular old mean conservatism.

Or, as W put it, "we have a responsibility that when somebody hurts, Government has got to move. And that's why we've signed extensions to the unemployment insurance...."

The nanny state defined.

Posted by: duke at May 21, 2015 12:02 PM (ChY2Q)

141 It's a losing battle because most people when presented with the
option of working for stuff vs getting free stuff from the govt, will
choose the freebies.

Most people think The Matrix was imposed by the machines. Few realize we'll impose it on ourselves.

Posted by: pep at May 21, 2015 12:02 PM (GMG6W)

142 Reagan could make the LIV's interested because he was an interesting speaker. He could point out the absurdities of the leftard philosophy with humor and conviction. He could make the LIV want to tie his own shoes and be proud of it.

Posted by: maddogg at May 21, 2015 12:03 PM (xWW96)

143 The problem with gettiing any conservative values across to LIVs is that conservatives have been thoroughly "otherized", despite the fact that at least a plurality of the voting public identifies as conservative.

To mangle a meme: Take back education. Wait 50 years. Profit.

Posted by: jwpaine at May 21, 2015 12:03 PM (0bXhD)

144 (not to mention the fact, nowhere in the Constitution does it mention the fed.gov power of subsidy)

Posted by: GGE of the Moron Horde, NC Chapter at May 21, 2015 12:03 PM (/2KMt)

145 80 WTF are you talking about? Look around you. There are 110M people on some sort of welfare in this country.

Not in my neighborhood, Sid.
Posted by: SE Pa Moron at May 21, 2015 11:38 AM (xQX/f)

________

Really? You've asked everyone?

Posted by: HUCK / AKIN 2016 at May 21, 2015 12:03 PM (0LHZx)

146 Even retarded people can grasp general concepts. The job is to make the material relevant and interesting to them. Same as our retarded electorate.

----

I'm looking out my office door at a woman who will raise her hand to God and swear that airborne gluten that is genetically engineered by Monsanto is killing her.

I am not making that up.

She will in no way ever understand small government conservatism.

Posted by: @JohnTant at May 21, 2015 12:03 PM (PFy0L)

147 >>>>>62 It's a losing battle because most people when presented with the option of working for stuff vs getting free stuff from the govt, will choose the freebies.

Posted by: HUCK / AKIN 2016 at May 21, 2015 11:32 AM (0LHZx)
-----
This drives me crazy because government freebies suck. So the FSA, by their votes, impose a system of a government "from whom all blessings flow"* on the rest of us in order to protect their access to free JUNK.

*quote from the Doxology; appropriate since the FSA views the government rather than God as the ultimate Provider

Posted by: Mindy at May 21, 2015 12:04 PM (WS8WT)

148 The Clinton Foundation pays him to troll us, to
dishearten us, to accept the inevitable HRC Presidency. Once you look at
his comments from that point of view you tend to respond differently. I
do, anyway.

Posted by: SE Pa Moron at May 21, 2015 11:59 AM (xQX/f)

I don't know if he's getting paid by anyone, but I tend to think this time (leading up to the Prez election cycle) it's not unreasonable to assume we're going to have plenty of "paid" commenters here.

Some trolls however, seem to be free agents. I'm not sure it makes any difference, and frankly I think it's fine to treat them the same regardless.

Posted by: BurtTC at May 21, 2015 12:04 PM (TOk1P)

149 GGE,

That's part of the problem to be sure. The other part is that after nearly a century of those subsidies (for one thing or another) the market is so warped that, if the government lets go, the resulting rubberband-under-tension reaction will be devestating. And will naturally be blamed on the newly "free" market and taken as proof free markets are bad.

Even worse, that distortion *can't* go on forever because the money is gone, so the backlash is coming at some point either way. I guess what I'm saying is "WASTF and the wrong things will get blamed when that bevomes generally obvious"

Posted by: Polliwog the 'Ette at May 21, 2015 12:05 PM (GDulk)

150 Here's my deal: If Republicans want my vote, show me the fucking money.
Posted by: someguy at May 21, 2015 11:34 AM (3z91g)

___________

What do you mean?

Posted by: Chamber of Commerce and related crony companies at May 21, 2015 12:05 PM (0LHZx)

151 'He's very hostile,' an unidentified family member told ABC News of the suspect. 'He's arrogant. He doesn't listen.'

Posted by: RWC - Team BOHICA at May 21, 2015 12:02 PM (fWAjv)

But enough about Obama...

Posted by: Insomniac at May 21, 2015 12:05 PM (2Ojst)

152 I'm looking out my office door at a woman who will raise her hand to God and swear that airborne gluten that is genetically engineered by Monsanto is killing her.

I am not making that up.

She will in no way ever understand small government conservatism.
Posted by: @JohnTant at May 21, 2015 12:03 PM (PFy0L)

She doesn't understand gluten or genetic engineering either, but somebody made the dumb ass a believer. Do you get my drift?

Posted by: maddogg at May 21, 2015 12:05 PM (xWW96)

153
'He's very hostile,' an unidentified family member told ABC News of the suspect. 'He's arrogant. He doesn't listen.'

Wait, he's not a goo boy? He dint wanna be a rappah?

His family isn't going to say he dindu nuffin?

Something seems wrong there...

Posted by: Citizen X at May 21, 2015 12:06 PM (7ObY1)

154 The Dumb People dont want to hear this shit.
Posted by: Soothsayer at May 21, 2015 11:58 AM (OmJgC)

Thank you - excellent point. If we want to slow the decline this high level talk of pronciples and whatnot is just mental masturbation. The plebs are emotional. To slow the advance of the Left, we should play upon what matters to the brain dead folks. The Leftist give us plenty of opportunities to stir up hatred toward them, and fear of their policies, yet no one on our side (in the establishment) will get dirty.

In the end, we lose. But if u want to stretch this thing out, do what works. Stir the anger, stir the resentment, and promise the world. Meanwhile, start building a street army. This, above all else, should be a key objective of any Right leaning party. For once, let's not be the victims. The thugs of the State will come knocking soon enough. Without organization and planning ahead of time, resistance will be largely futile.

Posted by: Reactionary at May 21, 2015 12:06 PM (reacA)

155 60
His thesis was that if the DOE was teaching conservative values then it would be a powerful thing...and it's the best we could hope for, because that building full of bureaucrats aren't going anywhere.

Posted by: @JohnTant at May 21, 2015 11:32 AM (PFy0L)

That seems to be the approach favored by Huckabee, Santorum, and Bill Bennett. They are fine with big government as long as it is used to promote what they consider conservative values; in their case social conservatism.

Posted by: rickl at May 21, 2015 12:06 PM (zoehZ)

156 I've been trying to skip most of the early election threads, but I saw this on Rubio and had to share. It's about how he cashed out his IRA for various reasons including a refrigerator. *facepalm*

http://money.cnn.com/2015/05/18/retirement/marco-rubio-ira/

He's also apparently been in some trouble on a house in Miami owned with somebody else. Sounds like they weren't paying the bills?

Posted by: Lea at May 21, 2015 12:07 PM (lIU4e)

157 Even worse, that distortion *can't* go on forever
because the money is gone, so the backlash is coming at some point
either way. I guess what I'm saying is "WASTF and the wrong things will
get blamed when that bevomes generally obvious"

Posted by: Polliwog the 'Ette at May 21, 2015 12:05 PM (GDulk)

Yup.

I'm not really in the Let It Burn camp, I'm in the "its gonna burn anyway no matter what we do so how about some hot dogs to grill over the fire" camp.

Posted by: GGE of the Moron Horde, NC Chapter at May 21, 2015 12:07 PM (/2KMt)

158 And let's not pretend that only the left offers free shit. Take mortgage interest deduction. Who benefits the most from that....it's isn't Obama's son, that's for sure.

Want to guarantee you will lose a Republican primary? Suggest that maybe sometime in the next 50 years the mortgage interest deduction should be phased out.

Posted by: HUCK / AKIN 2016 at May 21, 2015 12:07 PM (0LHZx)

159 My various outdoor activities bring me into contact with quite a number of hippies. Some of the anti-Monsanto hippies are surprisingly (and often secretly) conservative.

So, I'm torn. I want to encourage them.

Posted by: Citizen X at May 21, 2015 12:08 PM (7ObY1)

160 I'm looking out my office door at a woman who will raise her hand to God and swear that airborne gluten that is genetically engineered by Monsanto is killing her.

I am not making that up.

She will in no way ever understand small government conservatism.
Posted by: @JohnTant at May 21, 2015 12:03 PM (PFy0L)

Wait what?

Does it get sprayed by contrails?

Posted by: alexthechick - Oh please intervene SMOD at May 21, 2015 12:08 PM (mf5HN)

161 Does anyone even remember the Davy Crockett speech from this last weekend post? Mr. Bunce had the right of it; once charity becomes a gubmint function there is NO END.

>> There are 110M people on some sort of welfare in this country.

Wrong. There are 110M people in this country on some kind of gubmint 'food aid' program ALONE. See the Drudge headline...

I asked my mom the other day to name a single thing gubmint does well. It does thousands of things, but none well. You might call it a jackass of all trades.

Posted by: GnuBreed at May 21, 2015 12:09 PM (bo7G7)

162
We don't speak Dumbese.
And conservatism does not translate well into Dumbese.
And that's the Left is winning.

Posted by: Soothsayer at May 21, 2015 12:09 PM (OmJgC)

163 OK, just got back from lunch. Need to read the comments. But my quick take?

Any "conservatism" that relies on harnessing the government for its purposes is not conservatism at all.

Posted by: Mary Poppins' Practically Perfect Piercing at May 21, 2015 12:09 PM (zF6Iw)

164 Heh. He said

"consolidated jerks of authority from above "

Posted by: scottst at May 21, 2015 12:09 PM (wCFAe)

165 123 Last Letterman show sucked. Just sayin'.

Last 20 years of Letterman shows sucked.

Posted by: Citizen X at May 21, 2015 12:09 PM (7ObY1)

166 Does it get sprayed by contrails?

Raptors

Posted by: wrg500 at May 21, 2015 12:10 PM (sWgE+)

167 I'm looking out my office door at a woman who will raise her hand to God and swear that airborne gluten that is genetically engineered by Monsanto is killing her.

I am not making that up.

She will in no way ever understand small government conservatism.
Posted by: @JohnTant at May 21, 2015 12:03 PM (PFy0L)

Get her some foil for Christmas. Makes a nice hat, so I'm told.

Posted by: Insomniac at May 21, 2015 12:10 PM (2Ojst)

168 Wrong. There are 110M people in this country on some kind of gubmint 'food aid' program ALONE. See the Drudge headline...

Posted by: GnuBreed at May 21, 2015 12:09 PM (bo7G7)

__________

Yeah true. I read somewhere that 50% of all households now get some sort of govt check every month. That included Social Security, which isn't really welfare, but still. When 1/2 the population depends on a govt check, we're passed the point of no return.

Posted by: HUCK / AKIN 2016 at May 21, 2015 12:10 PM (0LHZx)

169 Aerosol GMO Gluten?

The Tinfoil Hat...

it does nothing!

Posted by: Garrett at May 21, 2015 12:10 PM (GSTJs)

170 Even when charity is privately given it is addictive

It becomes an expectation. A planned for source of income

Posted by: ThunderB, Overly Provocative at May 21, 2015 12:11 PM (zOTsN)

171
The only way to slow the Left is to cut off the money.

Unfortunately, the GOP wants to protect their cut.

I always have to remind myself: Republican does not = Conservative.

Posted by: Guy Mohawk at May 21, 2015 12:11 PM (ODxAs)

172 Want to guarantee you will lose a Republican
primary? Suggest that maybe sometime in the next 50 years the mortgage
interest deduction should be phased out.

Posted by: HUCK / AKIN 2016 at May 21, 2015 12:07 PM (0LHZx)

One of the points of the Fair Tax is you don't pay any income tax whatsoever (it is replaced with a consumption tax on NEW goods at the point of sale), and one of the things that detractors use to protest it is the mortgage interest deduction goes away.

*facepalm*

Posted by: GGE of the Moron Horde, NC Chapter at May 21, 2015 12:11 PM (/2KMt)

173 We don't speak Dumbese.
And conservatism does not translate well into Dumbese.
And that's the Left is winning.
Posted by: Soothsayer at May 21, 2015 12:09 PM (OmJgC)

Reagan could speak it, and served 8 years in spite of the hatred of the MFM. And hundreds of thousands of people mourned his passing. And Reagan was far from dumb.

Posted by: maddogg at May 21, 2015 12:11 PM (xWW96)

174 Posted by: GnuBreed at May 21, 2015 12:09 PM (bo7G7

You think 1 in 3 people are on some kind of food assistance program?

Posted by: Cruzinator at May 21, 2015 12:11 PM (8cSVB)

175 160 I'm looking out my office door at a woman who will raise her hand to God and swear that airborne gluten that is genetically engineered by Monsanto is killing her.

I am not making that up.

She will in no way ever understand small government conservatism.
Posted by: @JohnTant at May 21, 2015 12:03 PM (PFy0L)

Wait what?

Does it get sprayed by contrails?
Posted by: alexthechick - Oh please intervene SMOD at May 21, 2015 12:08 PM (mf5HN)

_____________

Black helicopter contrails that also causes autism.

Posted by: HUCK / AKIN 2016 at May 21, 2015 12:11 PM (0LHZx)

176 'He's very hostile,' an unidentified family member told ABC News of the suspect. 'He's arrogant. He doesn't listen.'
Posted by: RWC

Who talked to my mom??

*shifty eyes*

Posted by: rickb223 Straight, Conservative Clinger at May 21, 2015 12:12 PM (J31vi)

177 Just remember, you have to spray white vinegar at The Chemtrails.

Not red wine vinegar. Not apple cider vinegar. Not Balsamic. Only the white vinegar works.

Posted by: Citizen X at May 21, 2015 12:12 PM (7ObY1)

178 In general this is why let it burn is the optimistic course.

Posted by: Guy Mohawk

The problem with Let It Burn is the idea that it will burn and then something completely better will take its place.

If you think that's how these things unfold, you're not a student of history.

Look at places like Venezuela or Argentina. You would think once people were fighting over toilet paper they would figure out their bullshit socialism doesn't work. Instead, all the blame is laid at the feet of "bankers".

Posted by: McAdams at May 21, 2015 12:12 PM (ijcxA)

179 Citizen X that's racist

Posted by: ThunderB, Overly Provocative at May 21, 2015 12:13 PM (zOTsN)

180 59
Why should I subsidize someone else's children? I prefer a flat tax with zero deductions. Around 8% would do it.

Posted by: Vic We Have No Party at May 21, 2015 11:31 AM (GpgJl)

I always said 10% but damn it, I like the way you think!

Posted by: Stateless Infidel at May 21, 2015 12:13 PM (AC0lD)

181 Just remember, you have to spray white vinegar at The Chemtrails.

Not red wine vinegar. Not apple cider vinegar. Not Balsamic. Only the white vinegar works.

Posted by: Citizen X

That's right--white is always superior. White white white white white.

Posted by: Ghost-written in Ron Paul's Name at May 21, 2015 12:14 PM (VAsIq)

182

Posted by: Cruzinator at May 21, 2015 12:11 PM (8cSVB)

The number of Americans on food stamps has topped 46,000,000 for 35 straight months, according to data from the Department of Agriculture (USDA).

From September 2011 through July 2014, the latest month for which data is available, the number of persons participating in the Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program (SNAP) has exceeded 46 million. As of July 2014, there were 46,486,434 beneficiaries of the SNAP program.

Posted by: wrg500 at May 21, 2015 12:14 PM (sWgE+)

183 Yeah true. I read somewhere that 50% of all
households now get some sort of govt check every month. That included
Social Security, which isn't really welfare, but still. When 1/2 the
population depends on a govt check, we're passed the point of no return.

Posted by: HUCK / AKIN 2016 at May 21, 2015 12:10 PM (0LHZx)

*shrug* I get a government check every month. USN retirement pay. It's making the house payment. I'm not expecting it to last though, they have already gone after retired medical benefits (ask a WW2 or Korea vet how he's liking his "guaranteed" medical care) so the paycheck can't be too far behind.

Posted by: GGE of the Moron Horde, NC Chapter at May 21, 2015 12:14 PM (/2KMt)

184 >>>>>155
That seems to be the approach favored by Huckabee, Santorum, and Bill Bennett. They are fine with big government as long as it is used to promote what they consider conservative values; in their case social conservatism.
Posted by: rickl at May 21, 2015 12:06 PM (zoehZ)
-----
They are not looking ahead to the time when the Totalitarian Statists regain power. The pendulum always swings. If our side doesn't reduce the size of the Behemoth when we get the chance, we just provide a bigger monster for the Statists to terrorize us with.

I learned my lesson with the Patriot Act. I thought the lefties were ridiculous when they warned that the Government would be snooping in everybody's library records. Little did I realize that they were telegraphing what they themselves would do with that power.

Posted by: Mindy at May 21, 2015 12:14 PM (WS8WT)

185 The MID is idiotic because it doesn't actually save anyone any money. What essentially happens is you save $X in taxes, but a house more so you end up paying $X more in mortgage payments. It's a wash. The only winners are people in the business of building and selling houses.

Posted by: HUCK / AKIN 2016 at May 21, 2015 12:14 PM (0LHZx)

186 >>> I'm looking out my office door at a woman who will raise her hand to God
and swear that airborne gluten that is genetically engineered by
Monsanto is killing her.

I am not making that up.

She will in no way ever understand small government conservatism.

Posted by: @JohnTant at May 21, 2015 12:03 PM (PFy0L) <<<

So, does she answer to the name of Mary Cloggenstein and you're in Brattleboro, VT?

Posted by: Mickey Shwarma at May 21, 2015 12:14 PM (sCHw2)

187 You think 1 in 3 people are on some kind of food assistance program?

Gov assistance of some kind.

Posted by: rickb223 Straight, Conservative Clinger at May 21, 2015 12:15 PM (J31vi)

188 Reform? How about sticking to our principals once in a while? How about not folding like a cheap chair? How about growing a pair?

Posted by: Nevergiveup at May 21, 2015 12:15 PM (rDqRv)

189 Why should I subsidize someone else's children? I prefer a flat tax with zero deductions. Around 8% would do it.

Posted by: Vic We Have No Party at May 21, 2015 11:31 AM (GpgJl)

I always said 10% but damn it, I like the way you think!

Posted by: Stateless Infidel

I'm willing to go 15%, so long as everyone else is at the same rate. But I really dislike the Progressive Tax.

Posted by: Turd Ferguson at May 21, 2015 12:15 PM (VAsIq)

190 Wait what?

Does it get sprayed by contrails?

I caught her looking at breath masks on Amazon once. I asked her if the avian flu was making a comeback.

I shouldn't have said anything.

I got to hear about 15 minutes of how Monsanto made GMO wheat that not only made its own pesticide (and thus was slowly poisoning people) but baked goods made from this wheat had a different kind of gluten that most everyone was allergic to. Plus, it's dangerous because unlike regular gluten, the genetic modifications to the grain meant that the gluten could become airborne. Indeed, she walked by a bakery and had a severe asthma attack and allergic reaction. Hence the breath mask.

This is a woman who is simply unable to survive without the firm hand of government. At times she's an entertaining ditz, but trying to explain small government concepts to her is like explaining particle physics to a chicken. It doesn't matter how entertaining the presentation is...she'll always retreat to the womb, convinced that if it weren't for Hillary Clinton, corporations will have killed us all off.

Posted by: @JohnTant at May 21, 2015 12:15 PM (PFy0L)

191 You think 1 in 3 people are on some kind of food assistance program?

Posted by: Cruzinator at May 21, 2015 12:11 PM (8cSVB)

Food stamps, WIC, ADC, subsidized school lunches, etc...covers a lot of ground.

Posted by: GGE of the Moron Horde, NC Chapter at May 21, 2015 12:16 PM (/2KMt)

192 179 Citizen X that's racist

Hey, I learned it from the Paultards, what can I say?

Posted by: Citizen X at May 21, 2015 12:16 PM (7ObY1)

193 Look at the damage an incompetent dumbshit did in 4 years with both houses. We have a chance to make HUGE changes in this country after the next election with a bold man in office who is savvy enough to make his points to the LIV. The opportunity of a lifetime. All we have to do is elect the right man. And any of the slimy rinos are not the right man.

Posted by: maddogg at May 21, 2015 12:16 PM (xWW96)

194 The big problem is that it's impossible to take freebies/entitlements away from anyone once they're in place
I could have given some idiot chick an uppercut when she informed me that she was waiting for pay day to pay a bill (never ever worked) just bludging off taxpayers like me
I felt like telling her that I am paying that bill

Posted by: aussie at May 21, 2015 12:17 PM (X/4BN)

195 The problem with Let It Burn is the idea that it will burn and then something completely better will take its place.

No guarantee something better will take it's place.

But this one IS guaranteed to crash and burn.

Posted by: rickb223 Straight, Conservative Clinger at May 21, 2015 12:17 PM (J31vi)

196 It's common lnowledge that Raytheon had been experimenting with delivery systems for Weaponized Gluten for decades.

Entire towns in rural Nevada have been subjected to Gluten Vapors without their knowledge or consent.

Posted by: Garrett at May 21, 2015 12:17 PM (GSTJs)

197 I learned my lesson with the Patriot Act. I thought
the lefties were ridiculous when they warned that the Government would
be snooping in everybody's library records. Little did I realize that
they were telegraphing what they themselves would do with that power.

Posted by: Mindy

+1

That's the problem with Big Government conservatism, it's main assumption is that the Left will never be in power.

Posted by: McAdams at May 21, 2015 12:17 PM (ijcxA)

198 Food stamps, WIC, ADC, subsidized school lunches, etc...covers a lot of ground.
Posted by: GGE of the Moron Horde, NC Chapter at May 21, 2015 12:16 PM (/2KMt)

_________

In many states they kids also get breakfast for free. God forbid we make parents buy a meal. How else will they make that $800/mo Escalade payment?

Posted by: HUCK / AKIN 2016 at May 21, 2015 12:18 PM (0LHZx)

199 Scared doggeh climbing under my arm. Big thunder storms. Again.

Posted by: ThunderB, Overly Provocative at May 21, 2015 12:18 PM (zOTsN)

200 And thank G*d the two daughters were away at school. Can't imagine the hell they are going through.

Posted by: RWC - Team BOHICA at May 21, 2015 12:19 PM (fWAjv)

201 174 Cruzinator,

The link is in my nic. 109M and some change.

Posted by: GnuBreed at May 21, 2015 12:19 PM (bo7G7)

202 And let's not pretend that only the left offers free shit. Take mortgage interest deduction. Who benefits the most from that....it's isn't Obama's son, that's for sure.

Want to guarantee you will lose a Republican primary? Suggest that maybe sometime in the next 50 years the mortgage interest deduction should be phased out.
Posted by: HUCK / AKIN 2016 at May 21, 2015 12:07 PM (0LHZx)

I would lose my mortgage deduction in a heartbeat if in exchange we went to a flat tax. The problem candidates create for themselves is when they throw out a sound bite with no alternative. Especially with a hostile media who will endlessly repeat the sound bite, convienently forgetting the rest of the story.

Posted by: Jen the original at May 21, 2015 12:19 PM (JaIou)

203 I learned my lesson with the Patriot Act. I thought
the lefties were ridiculous when they warned that the Government would
be snooping in everybody's library records. Little did I realize that
they were telegraphing what they themselves would do with that power.

Posted by: Mindy at May 21, 2015 12:14 PM (WS8WT)

And at the time I said never give power to yourself that you wouldn't give to your worst enemy and was told I was batshit crazy. I didn't like the Patriot Act then and I don't like it now, another POS piece of legislation that should have never been passed...and the fact it was passed with Democrat assistance should have been all the warning that anyone needed.

Posted by: GGE of the Moron Horde, NC Chapter at May 21, 2015 12:20 PM (/2KMt)

204 It's about how he cashed out his IRA for various reasons including a refrigerator. *facepalm*.......He's also apparently been in some trouble on a house
in Miami owned with somebody else. Sounds like they weren't paying the
bills?

Posted by: Lea at May 21, 2015 12:07 PM (lIU4e)
Quick, let's put this man in charge of the federal budget.

Posted by: pep at May 21, 2015 12:20 PM (GMG6W)

205 Conservatism dose not need to be "Reformed"!

Blow ME! You RINO bastages! Fargin Iceholes!

Posted by: Paladin at May 21, 2015 12:20 PM (+Wvn3)

206
If you think that's how these things unfold, you're not a student of history.

I know history pretty well including those you mentioned. The fact of the matter is by letting in burn instead of letting it boil starts the rebuilding process faster and it is not baked into the cake that the replacement will be commie. IMO, it is baked into the cake that a slow boil allows communism to become established and then all powerful.

Posted by: Guy Mohawk at May 21, 2015 12:20 PM (ODxAs)

207 In 2013, one in five American households, or 20 percent, participated in the SNAP program.

Posted by: wrg500 at May 21, 2015 12:21 PM (sWgE+)

208 Entire towns in rural Nevada have been subjected to Gluten Vapors without their knowledge or consent.
Posted by: Garrett at May 21, 2015 12:17 PM (GSTJs)

Where's Erin Brockovich when you need her...

Posted by: Jen the original at May 21, 2015 12:21 PM (JaIou)

209 >>At times she's an entertaining ditz, but trying to explain small government concepts to her is like explaining particle physics to a chicken

**Stares**
*blinks*
**Stares**

Posted by: Chicken Boo at May 21, 2015 12:21 PM (GSTJs)

210 TFG - "I don't think we're losing. There's no doubt there was a tactical setback."

Posted by: RWC - Team BOHICA at May 21, 2015 12:21 PM (fWAjv)

211 We have a chance to make HUGE changes in this country after the next
election with a bold man in office who is savvy enough to make his
points to the LIV. The opportunity of a lifetime. All we have to do is
elect the right man.

I think I see a fatal flaw in your plan...

Posted by: GGE of the Moron Horde, NC Chapter at May 21, 2015 12:22 PM (/2KMt)

212 " I'm in the Domench camp (save the libertarian love of nearly unfettered immigration). "

That's like being a little pregnant.

Open borders is such a flawed point of view at its core and stems from the Libertarians' stubborn inability (or unwillingness) to address realities.

Posted by: Y-not at May 21, 2015 12:22 PM (RWGcK)

213 I agree with Henry David Thoreau: "that government is best which governs least."

Our Founders designed a federal government of limited powers for a reason -- a very good reason. We ignored their wisdom and have allowed the federal government to expand its power so that its reach is now virtually unlimited. We must rein in the beast -- before it destroys us all.

Posted by: TrivialPursuer at May 21, 2015 12:22 PM (lmdHn)

214 is like explaining particle physics to a chicken. It doesn't matter how entertaining the presentation is...she'll always retreat to the womb, convinced that if it weren't for Hillary Clinton, corporations will have killed us all off.
Posted by: @JohnTant at May 21, 2015 12:15 PM (PFy0L)

I think I"ll go to lunch now laughing at this great post.Thanks

Posted by: Jen the original at May 21, 2015 12:23 PM (JaIou)

215 Look at the damage an incompetent dumbshit did in 4
years with both houses. We have a chance to make HUGE changes in this
country after the next election with a bold man in office who is savvy
enough to make his points to the LIV. The opportunity of a lifetime. All
we have to do is elect the right man. And any of the slimy rinos are
not the right man.

Posted by: maddogg at May 21, 2015 12:16 PM (xWW96)

Yeah, the shame of it is, it really wouldn't be that hard to do. Reagan was a bright guy, but he wasn't a genius. He just had principles and attempted to stick with them in spite of the office.

I'm sure there are some folks out there who could do the job, but the Gope isn't going to allow any of them to occupy the top spot on their ticket. And no, I didn't say it would be difficult, I said they aren't going to allow it.

Nominee Jeb is still my odds on favorite for what is going to happen.

Posted by: BurtTC at May 21, 2015 12:24 PM (TOk1P)

216 The more institutions you give the Gramscians to march through, the more power you cede them.

And these same "reformers" will act, *ACT* shocked when the Gramscians are in control. Politicians can change with the seasons, but bureaucrats are for life.

Posted by: Burn the Witch at May 21, 2015 12:24 PM (xSCb6)

217 1 in 3 on government assistance. That includes Social Security, right? Or is the number larger when Social Security is added in.

Social Security where money is taken from you when you are young and working to be given back to you when you are old and unable to work.

Posted by: AllenTK349 at May 21, 2015 12:24 PM (zisR4)

218 Don't you love my new nick?

*With every post, I insult the intelligence of every commenter at AOS implying that they are big Huckster and Akin fans!

I am so clever!

*this poster paid for by the Clinton Foundation

Posted by: Akin/Huck 2016 at May 21, 2015 12:24 PM (NUCTk)

219 I saw Weaponized Gluten open for Bread at the Pillsbury Center.

Posted by: HR braucht ein Bier at May 21, 2015 12:25 PM (ZKzrr)

220 Reform conservatism has a perfectly good name already: "fascism". It's pithier and more honest.

It even comes with a Cole Porter song, "You're The Top". They can play that at the inaugural ball, by torchlight.

Posted by: boulder terlit hobo at May 21, 2015 12:25 PM (01cYD)

221 Immigration is like bacteria in your gut. Some are helpful, some are harmful. Too much bacteria though, and things go south in a hurry.

Posted by: Jon in TX at May 21, 2015 12:25 PM (PYAXX)

222 I sit on a board that gives grants to poor kids. Private. Some of the stories are absolutely heart breaking. Death. Chronic illness. Mental illness. Bankruptcy. Divorce.

But every meeting we also get application from people with really good salaries but really poor choices. Building a house. New cars. It's about 10 % of the applications. It's shameless really.

You don't want to "punish" the kids because of the parents. But even in the sad deserving cases, once aid is given, you see the same family applying for years. They never go away

There is no concept of temporary. And it becomes an expectation.

Posted by: ThunderB, Overly Provocative at May 21, 2015 12:25 PM (zOTsN)

223

I saw Weaponized Gluten open for Bread at the Pillsbury Center.

Ha. One of the best ever.

Posted by: Guy Mohawk at May 21, 2015 12:26 PM (ODxAs)

224 Where's Erin Brockovich when you need her...

Posted by: Jen the original

More importantly, where are her boobs?

Posted by: Turd Ferguson at May 21, 2015 12:26 PM (VAsIq)

225 I saw Weaponized Gluten open for Bread at the Pillsbury Center.

Posted by: HR braucht ein Bier at May 21, 2015 12:25 PM (ZKzrr)

*golf clap*

Posted by: GGE of the Moron Horde, NC Chapter at May 21, 2015 12:26 PM (/2KMt)

226 >>
I saw Weaponized Gluten open for Bread at the Pillsbury Center.

They fell flat. Couldn't get a rise out of them.

Posted by: GnuBreed at May 21, 2015 12:27 PM (bo7G7)

227 202
And let's not pretend that only the left offers free shit. Take
mortgage interest deduction. Who benefits the most from that....it's
isn't Obama's son, that's for sure.

Want to guarantee you will lose a Republican primary? Suggest that
maybe sometime in the next 50 years the mortgage interest deduction
should be phased out.

Posted by: HUCK / AKIN 2016 at May 21, 2015 12:07 PM (0LHZx)

This is an argument the Left frequently uses that is so dishonest. That it's all the same so "shut up!"

Sort of like "oil companies get special tax breaks so why shouldn't solar get all sorts of subsidies" when they had to answer for Solyndra. nevermind the "special" tax break is they get to use their exploration costs as a business expense, which is pretty standard.

I would prefer a flat tax over the mortgage deduction, but there's a very big difference between the Free Shit Army in places like Baltimore and someone deducting the interest of their mortgage on their income taxes as a form of middle class tax relief.

Posted by: McAdams at May 21, 2015 12:27 PM (ijcxA)

228 The Mayor of DC just identified the killer of those people in the house that he then burned as "Black"??? Now how come she can identify him as a "Black" male but other times that is verbotin?

Posted by: Nevergiveup at May 21, 2015 12:27 PM (rDqRv)

229 'The Bread will Rise, Again' is Weaponized Gluten's best record.

Posted by: Garrett at May 21, 2015 12:28 PM (GSTJs)

230 Yeah true. I read somewhere that 50% of all households now get some sort of govt check every month. That included Social Security, which isn't really welfare, but still. When 1/2 the population depends on a govt check, we're passed the point of no return.
Posted by:mini /moo 2016

SS is an entitlement program. The POS is a tax, and eligibility is based upon age, which changes subject to governmental whim. It never was a retirement program, and SCOTUS has repeatedly confirmed that.

Posted by: Blue Hen at May 21, 2015 12:28 PM (Spluw)

231 I saw Weaponized Gluten open for Bread at the Pillsbury Center.

They fell flat. Couldn't get a rise out of them.

Posted by: GnuBreed at May 21, 2015 12:27 PM (bo7G7)

I could never get into the flour power hippie style music.

Posted by: BurtTC at May 21, 2015 12:29 PM (TOk1P)

232 We are fortunate that Obama is lazy, which mitigates the damage his stupid would do.

Posted by: maddogg at May 21, 2015 12:29 PM (xWW96)

233 'The Bread will Rise, Again' is Weaponized Gluten's best record.

Posted by: Garrett at May 21, 2015 12:28 PM (GSTJs)

I liked "Crumbs in the Wind"

Posted by: wrg500 at May 21, 2015 12:29 PM (sWgE+)

234 'The Bread will Rise, Again' is Weaponized Gluten's best record.

Posted by: Garrett

"Yeast of Eden" was pretty good, too.

Posted by: Turd Ferguson at May 21, 2015 12:30 PM (VAsIq)

235 234 'The Bread will Rise, Again' is Weaponized Gluten's best record.

Posted by: Garrett

"Yeast of Eden" was pretty good, too.
Posted by: Turd Ferguson at May 21, 2015 12:30 PM (VAsIq)

They never should have recorded "Purple Grain" though.

Posted by: Insomniac at May 21, 2015 12:31 PM (2Ojst)

236 I saw Weaponized Gluten open for Bread at the Pillsbury Center.

They fell flat. Couldn't get a rise out of them.

Posted by: GnuBreed at May 21, 2015 12:27 PM (bo7G7)

I could never get into the flour power hippie style music.

Posted by: BurtTC

D'ough!

Posted by: Homer J. Simpson at May 21, 2015 12:31 PM (VAsIq)

237 Murderer was a former employee

Posted by: ThunderB, Overly Provocative at May 21, 2015 12:31 PM (zOTsN)

238 The poor surviving daughters. Horrible

Posted by: ThunderB, Overly Provocative at May 21, 2015 12:32 PM (zOTsN)

239 228 The Mayor of DC just identified the killer of those people in the house that he then burned as "Black"??? Now how come she can identify him as a "Black" male but other times that is verbotin?

Posted by: Nevergiveup at May 21, 2015 12:27 PM (rDqRv)

Probably because everyone knew he was black hours before her announcement. If they didn't it is doubtful she would have mentioned it.

And he has been tracked to the NYC area.

Posted by: RWC - Team BOHICA at May 21, 2015 12:32 PM (fWAjv)

240 Heh. Salon is attacking David Letterfuck for having too many white guests.

I just love left-on-left violence.

Posted by: Citizen X at May 21, 2015 12:32 PM (7ObY1)

241

'The Bread will Rise, Again' is Weaponized Gluten's best record.

They were sued by Cream for copyright infringement.

Posted by: Guy Mohawk at May 21, 2015 12:32 PM (ODxAs)

242 But "Wheat Will Rock You" is one of the greatest stadium rock anthems of all time.

Posted by: Insomniac at May 21, 2015 12:32 PM (2Ojst)

243 This thread is turning into a PITA.

Posted by: GnuBreed at May 21, 2015 12:32 PM (bo7G7)

244 243 This thread is turning into a PITA.
Posted by: GnuBreed at May 21, 2015 12:32 PM (bo7G7)

Don't be so crusty.

Posted by: Insomniac at May 21, 2015 12:33 PM (2Ojst)

245 And he has been tracked to the NYC area.
Posted by: RWC - Team BOHICA at May 21, 2015 12:32 PM (fWAjv)

great just what we need

Posted by: Nevergiveup at May 21, 2015 12:33 PM (rDqRv)

246 "Yeast of Eden" was pretty good, too.

Posted by: Turd Ferguson at May 21, 2015 12:30 PM (VAsIq)

did you like "Stair way to Leaven"?

Posted by: wrg500 at May 21, 2015 12:33 PM (sWgE+)

247 "Yeast of Eden" was pretty good, too.

Posted by: Turd Ferguson at May 21, 2015 12:30 PM (VAsIq)

They never should have recorded "Purple Grain" though.

In my youth, I belonged to their official fan club -
"Crust Nation".

Posted by: some random meathead at May 21, 2015 12:33 PM (NUCTk)

248
I would prefer a flat tax over the mortgage deduction, but there's a very big difference between the Free Shit Army in places like Baltimore and someone deducting the interest of their mortgage on their income taxes as a form of middle class tax relief.

Posted by: McAdams at May 21, 2015 12:27 PM (ijcxA)

_________

Not it isn't. Your deduction is a chunk of money that the govt gives you for buying a house. It's social engineering, which is a bad thing....except when YOU are the recipient of the freebie.

And the "middle class" doesn't benefit from it that much. The biggest beneficiaries are high income earners who live in expensive parts of the country, ie the dude making $300K a year with a $2M house in Los Angeles.

The guy making $45K with a $150K house doesn't get anything since the standard deduction is higher than his mortgage deduction.

Posted by: HUCK / AKIN 2016 at May 21, 2015 12:33 PM (0LHZx)

249 That government is best which governs yeast.

Posted by: antisocial justice beatnik at May 21, 2015 12:34 PM (l3LvV)

250 This thread is toast.

Posted by: no good deed at May 21, 2015 12:34 PM (GgxVX)

251 >>
I liked "Crumbs in the Wind"

"Crust Never Sleeps".

Posted by: Garrett at May 21, 2015 12:34 PM (GSTJs)

252 Help!

We knead a new bread... eh, thread.

This one's half-baked.

Posted by: BurtTC at May 21, 2015 12:35 PM (TOk1P)

253 This thread is toast.

Posted by: no good deed

What? I think we're on a roll!

Posted by: Turd Ferguson at May 21, 2015 12:35 PM (VAsIq)

254 They can eliminate the mortgage tax deduction for all I care. I wanted to move to an apartment anyway to get away from my property tax and home repairs.

Posted by: Cruzinator at May 21, 2015 12:35 PM (8cSVB)

255 I like the cover of Pearl Jam's "Butter Man"

Posted by: wooga at May 21, 2015 12:35 PM (nrca1)

256 I just wrote this comment on a newspaper's article about the small oil leak that happened in Santa Barbara County yesterday, over which the left is going ballistic...but the site wouldn't let me post it, so I'll post it here!:

-----------------------------

Left out of this article is the fact that all the beaches from Ventura to Pismo had for countless thousands of years natural seepage in very large quantities washing up on the shoreline daily - it was part of the natural habitat there. In fact, the word "Pismo" means "tar ball" in the language of the Native Americans for that area, because Pismo Beach was practically solid tar from millions of years of seepage. As were many other beaches now in Santa Barbara County. The area offshore is a vast, loosely contained oil reservoir. But once humans started pumping out the oil in the 20th century, the seepage dramatically DECREASED, in some areas by as much as 99%. Then we got used to the status quo of an oilless area -- caused by the oil reservoirs being drained away -- until suddenly a bit leaks once again, and everyone freaks out like it's a huge disaster. Actually, having oil and tar along the shoreline of mid-southern California IS the natural state of affairs there. But no matter: the Narrative must go on!

Posted by: zombie at May 21, 2015 12:35 PM (jBuUi)

257 great just what we need

Posted by: Nevergiveup at May 21, 2015 12:33 PM (rDqRv)

Now narrowed down to Brooklyn.

And there are shitheads questioning how the pizza crust survived the fire. Ummm, the house didn't burn to ashes folks.

Posted by: RWC - Team BOHICA at May 21, 2015 12:35 PM (fWAjv)

258 'The Bread will Rise, Again' is Weaponized Gluten's best record.
Posted by: Garrett

I liked "Crumbs in the Wind"

It never rose on the charts like it should have.
Left me kinda flat & kneading more.

Posted by: rickb223 Straight, Conservative Clinger at May 21, 2015 12:36 PM (J31vi)

259 I know history pretty well including those you
mentioned. The fact of the matter is by letting in burn instead of
letting it boil starts the rebuilding process faster and it is not baked
into the cake that the replacement will be commie. IMO, it is baked
into the cake that a slow boil allows communism to become established
and then all powerful.

Posted by: Guy Mohawk

"This time will be different" is usually said right before an even worse outcome.

The only hope I see would be some sort of "divorce" where we can separate ourselves from the disease, but I'm just not optimistic it will happen in my lifetime, even if there is a collapse.

I'm certainly not going to vote in a way that speeds up the collapse.

Posted by: McAdams at May 21, 2015 12:36 PM (ijcxA)

260 Now narrowed down to Brooklyn.

And there are shitheads questioning how the pizza crust survived the fire. Ummm, the house didn't burn to ashes folks.
Posted by: RWC - Team BOHICA at May 21, 2015 12:35 PM (fWAjv)

J.J. be on the look out!

Posted by: Nevergiveup at May 21, 2015 12:36 PM (rDqRv)

261 "Where Have all the Flours Gone"

Posted by: Citizen X at May 21, 2015 12:37 PM (7ObY1)

262 You guys are killing me.

Ha ha ha

Posted by: gwelf at May 21, 2015 12:38 PM (+7Usq)

263 All you people have such a rye sense of humor.

Posted by: BurtTC at May 21, 2015 12:38 PM (TOk1P)

264 'The Bread will Rise, Again' is Weaponized Gluten's best record.
Posted by: Garrett

When the band split, and they made Flat Bread with Rachel Corrie, was probably the darkest time for the group.

Posted by: Turd Ferguson at May 21, 2015 12:38 PM (VAsIq)

265 Open borders is such a flawed point of view at its core and stems from
the Libertarians' stubborn inability (or unwillingness) to address
realities.
***
So the choices of policial parties in Mexico and central America range from fascist to radical leftwing.

But I'm sure on moving to America and getting a low paying job they will immediately see the appeal of a philosophy 100% at odds with everything they've ever known and they will vote for conservatives...

Posted by: 18-1 at May 21, 2015 12:38 PM (78TbK)

266 Hipsters of Brooklyn now very much pro police

Posted by: ThunderB, Overly Provocative at May 21, 2015 12:38 PM (zOTsN)

267 "Where Have all the Flours Gone"

Look at the flours Lizzie.

Posted by: rickb223 Straight, Conservative Clinger at May 21, 2015 12:38 PM (J31vi)

268 "Salon."

What happens when trolls get their own website?

Posted by: Burn the Witch at May 21, 2015 12:38 PM (xSCb6)

269 Hipsters of Brooklyn now very much pro police

Posted by: ThunderB, Overly Provocative

Sting thanks them for their support.

Posted by: Turd Ferguson at May 21, 2015 12:39 PM (VAsIq)

270 Salon must be a ton of fun at parties.

Posted by: Citizen X at May 21, 2015 12:39 PM (7ObY1)

271 Night night everyone from Way Down Here as it's Friday morning 2.30 am so I must get a few hours of beauty sleep so I can tackle the day of wonderful blues music at the Broadbeach Blues festival

Turning back the welfare society -impossible except when the money runs out *how much more can a not wealthy tax payer be squeezed before this taxpayer says ENOUGH*

Have a great yesterday everyone!

Posted by: aussie at May 21, 2015 12:40 PM (X/4BN)

272 zombie

Thanks for that information, had no idea.

But,but-ZOMG Brangelina's mega millions estate is being threatened!!

Posted by: River Guide at May 21, 2015 12:40 PM (RJMhd)

273 Salon must be a ton of fun at parties.

Posted by: Citizen X

Parties are simply an invitation to rape and racism and other bad things. That's why we don't do parties.

It's certainly not because no one invites us.

Posted by: Salon at May 21, 2015 12:40 PM (VAsIq)

274 237 Murderer was a former employee

Posted by: ThunderB, Overly Provocative at May 21, 2015 12:31 PM (zOTsN)

Really? Haven't read that.

Posted by: RWC - Team BOHICA at May 21, 2015 12:40 PM (fWAjv)

275 "Salon."

What happens when trolls get their own website?

They beg for more bread to run it.

Posted by: rickb223 Straight, Conservative Clinger at May 21, 2015 12:40 PM (J31vi)

276 Have a great yesterday everyone!

Posted by: aussie at May 21, 2015 12:40 PM (X/4BN)

Thanks aussie, let us know how tomorrow is going to be.

Posted by: GGE of the Moron Horde, NC Chapter at May 21, 2015 12:41 PM (/2KMt)

277 I'm certainly not going to vote in a way that speeds up the collapse.

I've come to the conclusion none of our votes matter, but I'm an optimist.

Posted by: Guy Mohawk at May 21, 2015 12:41 PM (ODxAs)

278 Night aussie! Nice to see you back.

Posted by: RWC - Team BOHICA at May 21, 2015 12:41 PM (fWAjv)

279 Murderer was a former employee

Posted by: ThunderB

Of yours?

Posted by: Turd Ferguson at May 21, 2015 12:41 PM (VAsIq)

280 'Hard Tack and Nursery Rhymes' is a great one.

Posted by: Garrett at May 21, 2015 12:41 PM (GSTJs)

281 'I am barley breathing'

great tune

Posted by: some random meathead at May 21, 2015 12:41 PM (NUCTk)

282 Bill Clinton's motto: There's a sucker born every minute.

It's Hillary's too but she means something different.

Posted by: The Great White Snark at May 21, 2015 12:41 PM (lKSyl)

283 They beg for more bread to run it.

Posted by: rickb223 Straight, Conservative Clinger at May 21, 2015 12:40 PM (J31vi)

Oh...NPR...

Posted by: GGE of the Moron Horde, NC Chapter at May 21, 2015 12:41 PM (/2KMt)

284 I've come to the conclusion none of our votes matter, but I'm an optimist.

Posted by: Guy Mohawk

It matters! The government knows which way you voted, and they will punish you accordingly.

Posted by: Turd Ferguson at May 21, 2015 12:42 PM (VAsIq)

285
"Have you ever seen the Grain" is a great tune.

Posted by: Guy Mohawk at May 21, 2015 12:42 PM (ODxAs)

286 I've come to the conclusion none of our votes matter, but I'm an optimist.

If voting mattered, the government would outlaw it.

Posted by: rickb223 Straight, Conservative Clinger at May 21, 2015 12:42 PM (J31vi)

287 Posted by: zombie at May 21, 2015 12:35 PM (jBuUi)

Quit trying to confuse them with facts zombie.

They will just hate you for it. But I'm not at all surprised at the amount of freakout going on over the leak; it is CA, after all. I actually expect a few eco warriors to commit seppuku, live on TV.

Posted by: GnuBreed at May 21, 2015 12:42 PM (bo7G7)

288 This thread it a PITA.

Posted by: Bandersnatch at May 21, 2015 12:42 PM (JtwS4)

289 I never liked Neil Young very much, but "Crust Never Sleeps" had a helluva riff.

Posted by: Citizen X at May 21, 2015 12:42 PM (7ObY1)

290 "Have you ever seen the Grain" is a great tune.

Posted by: Guy Mohawk at May 21, 2015 12:42 PM (ODxAs)

It's OK, but "Who'll Stop The Grain" is a better one.

Posted by: GGE of the Moron Horde, NC Chapter at May 21, 2015 12:42 PM (/2KMt)

291 No. Murderer was a former employee of the man murdered. American Iron works? Something like that. It was announced at the press conference

Posted by: ThunderB, Overly Provocative at May 21, 2015 12:43 PM (zOTsN)

292 I know history pretty well including those you mentioned. The fact of the matter is by letting in burn instead of letting it boil starts the rebuilding process faster and it is not baked into the cake that the replacement will be commie. IMO, it is baked into the cake that a slow boil allows communism to become established and then all powerful.

Posted by: Guy Mohawk at May 21, 2015 12:20 PM (ODxAs)

I am aware of no LIB scenario in history that didn't result in a totalitarian government coming into power. Care to enlighten me as to why the US would be the precedent shattering exception to human nature?

Posted by: Weirddave at May 21, 2015 12:43 PM (WvS3w)

293 "Here comes the grain again"

Posted by: Turd Ferguson at May 21, 2015 12:43 PM (VAsIq)

294 Uh oh, my boss just said I knead to quit loafing, get rolling and earn my dough or I'm toast!

Posted by: BurtTC at May 21, 2015 12:44 PM (TOk1P)

295 180 I always said 10% but damn it, I like the way you think!

Posted by: Stateless Infidel at May 21, 2015 12:13 PM (AC0lD)

Most people who actually pay income tax pay less than 10% gross.

Posted by: Vic We Have No Party at May 21, 2015 12:44 PM (GpgJl)

296 Care to enlighten me as to why the US would be the precedent shattering exception to human nature?

Estonia.

Posted by: Guy Mohawk at May 21, 2015 12:44 PM (ODxAs)

297 Their opera about the Bread Pirate Roberts was a little over the top.

Posted by: Turd Ferguson at May 21, 2015 12:44 PM (VAsIq)

298 There were three men came out of the West,
Their fortunes for to try,
And these three men made a solemn vow:
John Barleycorn must die.

Posted by: Bandersnatch at May 21, 2015 12:44 PM (JtwS4)

299 294 Uh oh, my boss just said I knead to quit loafing, get rolling and earn my dough or I'm toast!

Ladies and gentlemen, we have achieved Maximum Pun Density.

Posted by: Citizen X at May 21, 2015 12:45 PM (7ObY1)

300 ***"Not it isn't. Your deduction is a chunk of money that the govt gives
you for buying a house."***

Let me stop you right there you chronically ignorant fuck. That money is yours to begin with, it doesn't "come from the government".

Why you think anyone thinks you're even numerate, let alone an accountant, or an MBA, or whatever the hell you are this week beats the hell out of me.

Why don't you tell us more lies about your personal life so it makes you easier to ignore?

Posted by: Burn the Witch at May 21, 2015 12:45 PM (xSCb6)

301 Not it isn't. Your deduction is a chunk of money
that the govt gives you for buying a house. It's social engineering,
which is a bad thing....except when YOU are the recipient of the
freebie.

And the "middle class" doesn't benefit from it that much. The
biggest beneficiaries are high income earners who live in expensive
parts of the country, ie the dude making $300K a year with a $2M house
in Los Angeles.

The guy making $45K with a $150K house doesn't get anything since the standard deduction is higher than his mortgage deduction.

Posted by: HUCK / AKIN 2016

The comparison is my problem. It's apples and oranges. A middle class person taking a deduction on their income taxes is much different than the Free Shit Army that is rotting this country.

I also get a tax deduction when I contribute to my 401(k). Is that also the same as me getting a welfare check in your eyes?

What about the reduction in taxes I pay for a capital gain vs salary? Also the same?

I prefer a flat tax, but to say any tax relief that strays from a universal rate is the same as food stamps is a giant leap.

It's the sort of bullshit comparison the Left loves to use

Posted by: McAdams at May 21, 2015 12:45 PM (ijcxA)

302 Arches of Loaf want their jokes back.

Posted by: Turd Ferguson at May 21, 2015 12:45 PM (VAsIq)

303 Wasn't there an actual crappy 70s band called-

Bread?

Posted by: River Guide at May 21, 2015 12:46 PM (RJMhd)

304 Listening to Rush telling how the state of California has ruled that willful defiance is no longer a reason for punishment in school. Mrs Hades told me that one of her second graders told her "I don't give a f**k what you do" and nothing happened to that kid either. But the law says we have to keep them in screwel until they are sixteen.

Posted by: GGE of the Moron Horde, NC Chapter at May 21, 2015 12:46 PM (/2KMt)

305 Russian revolution was more burn than boil

Same with the islamic Revolution in iran.

Cuba was a burn not boil too.

Posted by: ThunderB, Overly Provocative at May 21, 2015 12:46 PM (zOTsN)

306
Abbott and Costello : Loafing

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_TGQ7rGL-Q

Posted by: AllenTK349 at May 21, 2015 12:46 PM (zisR4)

307 When I see the word, "reform," I double check the speedy-loaders for my revolver to make sure they're stacked and racked.

Posted by: Fritz at May 21, 2015 12:47 PM (ty633)

308 their foray into rap was pretty forgettable

Slice, Slice Baby

Posted by: some random meathead at May 21, 2015 12:47 PM (NUCTk)

309 I always thought my work with Weaponized Gluten was my finest.

Posted by: Ginger Baker at May 21, 2015 12:47 PM (GSTJs)

310 Here's a radical proposal.

Explain to the youth that the US government has made promises to give away somewhere between $100 Trillion and $200 Trillion dollars that it doesn't have.

These promises were not made and were not voted on by any young member of society who was not of age to vote in 2012.

To all of those young people, the innocent victims of this system, we propose the following. If you were too young to vote in 2012, we will give you the following irrevocable choice.

You will not be part of any government program or recipient of any government money for the rest of your life.

You, and any business you create, will pay a simple 10% tax with no deductions on all of your income.

You and any businesses you create are not part of any US government bureaucracy. Outside of the basic legal laws which you obviously have to obey, you and any businesses you create will be exempt from all rules and regulations created by all government agencies.

With this freedom, we are giving you the chance to create a future for yourselves that is being denied to your older peers. It comes with risks because the lure of government money is so tempting. However, with this freedom of not being part of a broke and broken system, of not having to worry about 90,000 pages of tax law and millions of pages of rules and regulations, we are giving you a chance to prosper, if you choose.

Set up this framework so just a few people can have this freedom. Scream "Do it for the CHILDREN!" - the innocent ones who truly have never voted for this shit.

And once that framework is in place, for the children, you can expand it, offering others to opt out.

Posted by: Stateless Infidel at May 21, 2015 12:48 PM (AC0lD)

311 303 Wasn't there an actual crappy 70s band called-

Bread?

David Geddes. One of the original noodle-armed soft-rock wimps.

"Baby I'm-a Want You." And I'm -a adding an "-a" wherever the lyrics don't-a fit, because I'm too lazy to care-a about it.

Posted by: Citizen X at May 21, 2015 12:48 PM (7ObY1)

312 I also get a tax deduction when I contribute to my 401(k). Is that also the same as me getting a welfare check in your eyes?

No you contribution is pre-tax which in some cases lowers your tax rate, but not always. You pay your taxes on 401k's on the backend when you withdraw it. Not the same.

Posted by: wrg500 at May 21, 2015 12:48 PM (sWgE+)

313 When I see the word, "reform," I double check the speedy-loaders for my revolver to make sure they're stacked and racked.

Posted by: Fritz at May 21, 2015 12:47 PM (ty633)

Check the springs in the magazines, make sure I have plenty of ammo on hand, etc

Posted by: GGE of the Moron Horde, NC Chapter at May 21, 2015 12:48 PM (/2KMt)

314 292 >> Care to enlighten me as to why the US would be the precedent shattering exception to human nature?

I'll give this a go, weirddave. Because of a revolutionary document, never before laid out as a form of government in the entire history of mankind, that underlies the US. Many many many citizens haven't forgotten that; they could come out on top.

Posted by: GnuBreed at May 21, 2015 12:50 PM (bo7G7)

315 I hated the 70s.

As a very young kid I was taking swim classes on a military base, one "test" was you had to jump off the high dive and then tread water with your hands up in the air still-

Argent's"Hold Your Head Up"- the long version was over.

Posted by: River Guide at May 21, 2015 12:50 PM (RJMhd)

316
Remember the hard rock years when the lead singer and guitarist formed ' Pumpernickelback'?

Posted by: some random meathead at May 21, 2015 12:50 PM (NUCTk)

317 Best Weaponized Gluten Covers

Judas Priest - 'Diamonds and Crust'

Posted by: Garrett at May 21, 2015 12:50 PM (GSTJs)

318 "Wasn't there an actual crappy 70s band called-

Bread? '

Yup.

David Gates was lead singer

Don't ask me how I know this.

Posted by: Village Idiot's Apprentice at May 21, 2015 12:50 PM (VPLuQ)

319 >> Best Weaponized Gluten Covers

Steve Winwood 'Roll With It'

Posted by: Garrett at May 21, 2015 12:51 PM (GSTJs)

320 The Salon-ification of The Onion's AV Club continues apace:

"Even the funny Death Wish films are repugnantly fascist"

Hey, Repugnant Fascists was the name of my first metal band, you simpering hipster bedwetters.

Posted by: Citizen X at May 21, 2015 12:51 PM (7ObY1)

321 This doughy commentary has gone stale

Posted by: ThunderB, Overly Provocative at May 21, 2015 12:51 PM (zOTsN)

322 Posted by: Stateless Infidel

Um, dude, I just asked if I could bum a smoke.

Posted by: Millennial Youth at May 21, 2015 12:51 PM (VAsIq)

323 >>>> Wasn't there an actual crappy 70s band called- Bread?

Nope.

Bran Halen

Posted by: Bigby's Twiddling Thumbs at May 21, 2015 12:52 PM (3ZtZW)

324 David Gates was lead singer

David Gates. That's it. I had the surname wrong.

Oops.

Posted by: Citizen X at May 21, 2015 12:52 PM (7ObY1)

325 SS is an entitlement program. The POS is a tax, and eligibility is based upon age, which changes subject to governmental whim. It never was a retirement program, and SCOTUS has repeatedly confirmed that.
Posted by: Blue Hen at May 21, 2015 12:28 PM (Spluw)

Absolutely. It was created by a Dem president as an entitlement program to buy votes. No one paying into SS taxes today will pay in what they will eventually get out.
My own mother received spouse's benefits after my father died for over sixteen years. All told, she and my father collected SS payments for 30 years. My father never earned more than $29,000 a year in his lifetime, and his lifetime SS deductions couldn't have totaled more than $20,000. But their 30 years of payments totalled close to $400,000.
Was an average of 1100 a month enough to live on in their later years, not even remotely. But the progam is still being touted as the only way elderly people can survive in their old age, and it's a benefit they paid in and should receive back out. No, it's a tax levied on them with the promise that same day they can live in comfort. It doesn't do any of those things, and is driving our debt up. And it is untouchable since it is a Democrat campaign golden goose.

Posted by: Jen the original at May 21, 2015 12:52 PM (JaIou)

326 Citizen X

Oh gawd that's it.

Loathe that crap,

Posted by: River Guide at May 21, 2015 12:52 PM (RJMhd)

327 Nope.

Bran Halen
Posted by: Bigby's Twiddling Thumbs at May 21, 2015 12:52 PM (3ZtZW)

With that classic 80s hit, "Dump."

Posted by: Insomniac at May 21, 2015 12:52 PM (2Ojst)

328 Bran Halen

LOL !

I actually like them.

Posted by: River Guide at May 21, 2015 12:54 PM (RJMhd)

329 Social Security where money is taken from you when you are young and working to be given back to you when you are old and unable to work.

Posted by: AllenTK349 at May 21, 2015 12:24 PM (zisR4)

I'm amazed how many people Blithely repeat this. Saying something over and over doesn't make it true folks. SS is a welfare program, paid for out of the general revenue, nothing else. "Put away for the time when you can't work" is the LIE.

Posted by: Weirddave at May 21, 2015 12:55 PM (WvS3w)

330 "Bran Halen "

Wheat are we talking about?

Posted by: Ricardo Kill at May 21, 2015 12:55 PM (LA7Cm)

331
A Noodle thread would be nice.

Posted by: Guy Mohawk at May 21, 2015 12:55 PM (ODxAs)

332 Alright boys, grab your fapsticks and have at it:

http://tinyurl.com/mjmamfx

Posted by: 1bulwetweft at May 21, 2015 12:55 PM (nqiq9)

333 Screw gluten trails! Ban TREES, the pollen-ejaculating bastards!!!

Posted by: andycanuck at May 21, 2015 12:56 PM (kivUY)

334 'Reformatarian' only works if you sharply limit the government's supply of money. If there's no income tax, say (don't laugh, or....do but once it 'twas so) or there was a hard limit on spending (say you can't spend more than you brought in with taxes the year before), then you can make government nimble.

Limits create agility, limits create choice. Unlimited cash creates bloat, inertia and the feeling that you can do anything just by tossing money at it.

Starve the beast to tame it.

Posted by: Mark Andrew Edwards at May 21, 2015 12:56 PM (LNl8j)

335 Life is like a shit sandwich. The more bread you have, the less shit you've got to eat.

Posted by: The Great White Snark at May 21, 2015 12:56 PM (lKSyl)

336 140
Or, as W put it, "we have a responsibility that when somebody hurts, Government has got to move. And that's why we've signed extensions to the unemployment insurance...."

The nanny state defined.

Posted by: duke at May 21, 2015 12:02 PM (ChY2Q)

Really. How is that position in any way different from FDR?

Posted by: rickl at May 21, 2015 12:57 PM (zoehZ)

337 327 Nope.
Bran Halen
Posted by: Bigby's Twiddling Thumbs at May 21, 2015 12:52 PM (3ZtZW)
With that classic 80s hit, "Dump."

Followed by the 90s hit: "Enema"

Posted by: 1bulwetweft at May 21, 2015 12:57 PM (nqiq9)

338 Best Weaponized Gluten Covers
Steve Winwood 'Roll With It'

Head East - Flat As A Pancake

Posted by: rickb223 Straight, Conservative Clinger at May 21, 2015 12:57 PM (J31vi)

339 The Onion is Krokodil, and if it hits a Left target it's because our political class has already purged and disavowed that target.

Posted by: boulder terlit hobo at May 21, 2015 12:57 PM (01cYD)

340 >>David Gates was lead singer

That guy could really Spelt out a tune.

Posted by: Garrett at May 21, 2015 12:57 PM (GSTJs)

341 >>David Gates was lead singer

That guy could really Spelt out a tune.

Posted by: Garrett at May 21, 2015 12:57 PM (GSTJs)

342 Lets get Triticale
Triticale
I wanna get Titi-caaaale
Let me cut down every stalk

Posted by: Bigby's Twiddling Thumbs at May 21, 2015 12:57 PM (3ZtZW)

343 332 Alright boys, grab your fapsticks and have at it:

http://tinyurl.com/mjmamfx

Dammit. You are not a great American.

Posted by: Citizen X at May 21, 2015 12:58 PM (7ObY1)

344 Is it still Music Thursday yet?

Posted by: BackwardsBoy, who did not vote for this sh1t at May 21, 2015 01:00 PM (0HooB)

345 And the "middle class" doesn't benefit from it that much. The biggest beneficiaries are high income earners who live in expensive parts of the country, ie the dude making $300K a year with a $2M house in Los Angeles.

The guy making $45K with a $150K house doesn't get anything since the standard deduction is higher than his mortgage deduction.

Posted by: HUCK / AKIN 2016 at May 21, 2015 12:33 PM (0LHZx)

The mortgage interest deduction cannot be used for mortgages over $1M.

The three categories are as follows.
1. Mortgages you took out on or before October
13, 1987 (called grandfathered debt).
2. Mortgages you took out after October 13,
1987, to buy, build, or improve your home
(called home acquisition debt), but only if
throughout 2014 these mortgages plus
any grandfathered debt totaled $1 million
or less ($500,000 or less if married filing
separately).
3. Mortgages you took out after October 13,
1987, other than to buy, build, or improve
your home (called home equity debt), but
only if throughout 2014 these mortgages
totaled $100,000 or less ($50,000 or less if
married filing separately) and totaled no
more than the fair market value of your
home reduced by (1) and (2).
The dollar limits for the second and

Posted by: Jen the original at May 21, 2015 01:00 PM (JaIou)

346 And it is untouchable since it is a Democrat campaign golden goose.

------

Start means testing it and SS will become much more touchable. Once certain people are excluded from receiving benefits - even though they "paid in" to the system their entire lives, the popularity of SS will decline. Perhaps not enough to ever eliminate it, but who knows.

Posted by: SH at May 21, 2015 01:00 PM (gmeXX)

347 No you contribution is pre-tax which in some cases
lowers your tax rate, but not always. You pay your taxes on 401k's on
the backend when you withdraw it. Not the same.

Posted by: wrg500

It's a tax deduction, plain and simple. It's not a 100% tax deduction, but taking advantage of it means you'll pay less in taxes than had you not used it, at least for most people. Otherwise what's the point?

A Roth IRA is another example. It's a tool used to shield taxes on some income.

I don't think it's a subsidy on the same level of a person getting Section 8 housing or is on SSDI, but some want to make that ridiculous comparison.

Posted by: McAdams at May 21, 2015 01:00 PM (ijcxA)

348 AI will eliminate the messy human fumbling that we have come to expect. Utopia is just the flip of a switch away. Relax, have a tall cool one and forget your troubles.

Posted by: goon drone at May 21, 2015 01:00 PM (gy5kE)

349 Here you go Citizen X
Because I'm in a giving mood.
*no spiders*

http://tinyurl.com/m6wshra
http://tinyurl.com/m74oxlw
http://tinyurl.com/mpbot4r

Posted by: wrg500 at May 21, 2015 01:00 PM (sWgE+)

350 oops

Posted by: Bigby's Twiddling Thumbs at May 21, 2015 01:01 PM (3ZtZW)

351 (Marty DiBergi, reading): "This tasteless cover is a good indicator of the lack of musical invention within. The musical growth rate of this band cannot even be charted. They are treading water in a sea of retarded sexuality and bad poetry."

Nigel Tufnel: "That's...that's ...just nitpicking, isn't it?"

Posted by: Citizen X at May 21, 2015 01:02 PM (7ObY1)

352 Brain bleach of Hannah Davis to combat 1bulwetweft's imagery

http://tinyurl.com/lzxyzlv

Posted by: RWC - Team BOHICA at May 21, 2015 01:02 PM (fWAjv)

353 Yeah, that America's founding was done according to contract theory is pretty revolutionary. About the closest analogy I can think of is the Sahifa of Madina... a treaty between tribes.

Posted by: boulder terlit hobo at May 21, 2015 01:02 PM (01cYD)

354 Remember at the end of Braveheart and William Wallace shouted out "COMFORT!" with his last breath? Really makes you think.

Posted by: Turd Ferguson at May 21, 2015 01:02 PM (VAsIq)

355 'Selling English Muffins by the Pound' is a seminal prog album.

Posted by: Garrett at May 21, 2015 01:03 PM (GSTJs)

356
I'll give this a go, weirddave. Because of a revolutionary document, never before laid out as a form of government in the entire history of mankind, that underlies the US. Many many many citizens haven't forgotten that; they could come out on top.

Uh-huh. And aren't we constantly lamenting that the majority of the population is part of the FSA or are LIVs or something else? You going to contend that true patriots outnumber them? If the economy completely collapses, those are the people that will be orchestrated into a mob, willingly, to sweep a despot into power. They outnumber the "many many" citizens you speak of 10 to 1.

Posted by: Weirddave at May 21, 2015 01:03 PM (WvS3w)

357 http://tinyurl.com/m6wshra

http://tinyurl.com/m74oxlw

http://tinyurl.com/mpbot4r

Now that's more like it...

Posted by: GGE of the Moron Horde, NC Chapter at May 21, 2015 01:04 PM (/2KMt)

358 It's a tax deduction, plain and simple. It's not a 100% tax deduction, but taking advantage of it means you'll pay less in taxes than had you not used it, at least for most people. Otherwise what's the point?

-----

In a better world we wouldn't have all these retirement plans and would just have lower tax rates.

Posted by: SH at May 21, 2015 01:04 PM (gmeXX)

359 Robert Gates, former SecDef and current Boy Scouts president speaks out against gay ban.

https://tinyurl.com/kotdecu

Posted by: SMFH at it all at May 21, 2015 01:04 PM (OsWis)

360 It's a tax deduction, plain and simple. It's not a 100% tax deduction, but taking advantage of it means you'll pay less in taxes than had you not used it, at least for most people. Otherwise what's the point?

No, it's a tax deferment. Yes in some cases it MAY move you into a lower bracket but in most cases no. All your doing is pushing the tax on 10-15% of your income out 20, 30, 40 years what ever the case may be.

Posted by: wrg500 at May 21, 2015 01:05 PM (sWgE+)

361 I recall when SS required you to pay in for at least three quarters before you could get a dime from it. The Demoncraps did away with that limitation. At that point it did become just another form of welfare.

Posted by: Vic We Have No Party at May 21, 2015 01:05 PM (GpgJl)

362 Greetings from Pedophile Isle!Temp is over 80 and the gals are under 18! It tastes good!

Posted by: Bill in Chappaqua at May 21, 2015 01:06 PM (NPgvx)

363 >>>>If the economy completely collapses, those are the people that will be orchestrated into a mob, willingly, to sweep a despot into power. They outnumber the "many many" citizens you speak of 10 to 1.

Yup. Why the 'starving the monkeys' approach appears best at first blush.

Posted by: Bigby's Twiddling Thumbs at May 21, 2015 01:06 PM (3ZtZW)

364 'Bran-Eater'

Posted by: Hall and Oats at May 21, 2015 01:06 PM (NUCTk)

365 349 Here you go Citizen X
Because I'm in a giving mood.
*no spiders*

Whew. Much better. That etch-a-sketched Lena Dunham out of my brain.

Posted by: Citizen X at May 21, 2015 01:06 PM (7ObY1)

366 Yeah, that America's founding was done according to contract theory is pretty revolutionary. About the closest analogy I can think of is the Sahifa of Madina... a treaty between tribes.

But it wasn't a revolution at all - it was English citizens demanding rights that they believed were theirs by birth that were being denied to them by the crown. It also didn't take place during/after an economic collapse, so LIB doesn't apply.

Posted by: Weirddave at May 21, 2015 01:07 PM (WvS3w)

367 305 Russian revolution was more burn than boil

Same with the islamic Revolution in iran.

Cuba was a burn not boil too.
Posted by: ThunderB, Overly Provocative at May 21, 2015 12:46 PM (zOTsN)

--------------

But the result of both is the same. You die a very agonizing death.

Posted by: Soona at May 21, 2015 01:07 PM (AmN81)

368 355 'Selling English Muffins by the Pound' is a seminal prog album.

Emerson, Bake and Palmer had some good 'uns too.

Posted by: Citizen X at May 21, 2015 01:07 PM (7ObY1)

369 In a better world we wouldn't have all these retirement plans and would just have lower tax rates.

Posted by: SH

I can definitely agree with that.

I think though you can make the argument though that some of this is a way to sneak in some tax relief without lowering rates on the "rich" and is also a "backdoor" privatization of Social Security with the deductions you can take while working.

Posted by: McAdams at May 21, 2015 01:08 PM (ijcxA)

370 I'm with Cruzinator in believing that the future of conservatism isn't an either-or proposition. We have to take care of those who genuinely cannot take care of themselves. However, many of the programs that conservatives have come to support--like the Earned Income Tax Credit--simply aren't working and are being abused.

OT: I'm seeing a lot of links to stories about "Ireland Perched to Become First Country to Legalize Gay Marriage Recognition Via Vote." They may do so, but I don't think that it will be by the margins that the left is touting.

Posted by: Michael the Hobbit at May 21, 2015 01:08 PM (0RdKg)

371 I recall when SS required you to pay in for at least three quarters before you could get a dime from it. The Demoncraps did away with that limitation. At that point it did become just another form of welfare.
Posted by: Vic We Have No Party at May 21, 2015 01:05 PM (GpgJl)

And I'm sure people will think I'm a horrible person for saying this, but it's the truth.
If SS was a retirement fund, why do children born with certain life limiting diseases qualify immediately to begin receiving SS payments for the rest of their life?
I"m not arguing the merits of the gov. assisting parents of children with serious diseases with money to help with their care. I'm simply pointing out that SS is not a retirement program, it is a welfare benefit.

Posted by: Jen the original at May 21, 2015 01:08 PM (JaIou)

372 Posted by: Weirddave at May 21, 2015 01:03 PM (WvS3w)

I just said they 'could' come out on top. I think we're fucked, too. I'm still partial to the national divorce thingy as the only practical solution.

One way or another, there will be pain.

Posted by: GnuBreed at May 21, 2015 01:08 PM (bo7G7)

373 Bran Eater

0 oh there she goes!

Watch out!

Posted by: River Guide at May 21, 2015 01:09 PM (RJMhd)

374 Russian revolution was more burn than boil

Same with the islamic Revolution in iran.

Cuba was a burn not boil too.
Posted by: ThunderB, Overly Provocative

What's that old saying? Feed a fever, lance a boil, add fuel to the fire, and hang the Commies--something like that.

Posted by: Turd Ferguson at May 21, 2015 01:09 PM (VAsIq)

375 Soona I agree. Someone up thread was arguing burn and start over, with the assumption that what follows would be better. Not necessarily.

Posted by: ThunderB, Overly Provocative at May 21, 2015 01:10 PM (zOTsN)

376 >>364 'Bran-Eater'
Posted by: Hall and Oats at May 21, 2015 01:06 PM (NUCTk)

'Watch out, boy
She'll fill you up'

Posted by: Garrett at May 21, 2015 01:10 PM (GSTJs)

377 *munches on buttered on croissant*

Y'all are having all kinds of pun, aren't y'all?

Posted by: BackwardsBoy, who did not vote for this sh1t at May 21, 2015 01:10 PM (0HooB)

378 I'm simply pointing out that SS is not a retirement program, it is a welfare benefit.

----

You're preaching to the choir here. It is a welfare program that pays benefits to almost everyone. They sold the program well.

Posted by: SH at May 21, 2015 01:11 PM (gmeXX)

379 But it wasn't a revolution at all - it was English citizens demanding rights that they believed were theirs by birth that were being denied to them by the crown. It also didn't take place during/after an economic collapse, so LIB doesn't apply.
Posted by: Weirddave at May 21, 2015 01:07 PM (WvS3w)
------
Actually they believed their rights were being denied by Parliament. They claimed parliament had no authority to legislate. - that legislative authority was entirely in the hands of colonial assemblies as granted by the Crown.

Posted by: RioBravo at May 21, 2015 01:11 PM (NUqwG)

380 "Y'all are having all kinds of pun, aren't y'all?"

It's a rye line of humor.

Posted by: Ricardo Kill at May 21, 2015 01:12 PM (LA7Cm)

381 'Bran-Eater'
Posted by: Hall and Oats at May 21, 2015 01:06 PM (NUCTk)

'Watch out, boy
She'll fill you up'

Posted by: Garrett

"Watch out, boy
They'll clean you out"

Posted by: Turd Ferguson at May 21, 2015 01:12 PM (VAsIq)

382
"Watch out, boy
They'll clean you out"
Posted by: Turd Ferguson at May 21, 2015 01:12 PM (VAsIq)

Heh. In more ways than one.

Posted by: Insomniac at May 21, 2015 01:12 PM (2Ojst)

383
>> Best Weaponized Gluten Covers

'Challah Back, Girl'

Posted by: Garrett at May 21, 2015 01:13 PM (GSTJs)

384 They outnumber the "many many" citizens you speak of 10 to 1.

I think its more 52% to 48%.

Posted by: Guy Mohawk at May 21, 2015 01:13 PM (ODxAs)

385 >>>Best Weaponized Gluten Covers
Judas Priest - 'Diamonds and Crust<<<

From the Unleashed in the Yeast release?

Posted by: Fritz at May 21, 2015 01:13 PM (ty633)

386 But it wasn't a revolution at all - it was English citizens demanding rights that they believed were theirs by birth that were being denied to them by the crown. It also didn't take place during/after an economic collapse, so LIB doesn't apply.
Posted by: Weirddave at May 21, 2015 01:07 PM (WvS3w)
------
Actually they believed their rights were being denied by Parliament. They claimed parliament had no authority to legislate. - that legislative authority was entirely in the hands of colonial assemblies as granted by the Crown.

------

And it was really a continuation of the long battle for liberty and freedom that pretty much makes up English history. The genius of the founders, the real revolution was the encapsulation of God-given rights.

Posted by: SH at May 21, 2015 01:13 PM (gmeXX)

387 PLEASE let there be a new thread.

Posted by: Turd Ferguson at May 21, 2015 01:13 PM (VAsIq)

388 371 And I'm sure people will think I'm a horrible person for saying this, but it's the truth.

If SS was a retirement fund, why do children born with certain life
limiting diseases qualify immediately to begin receiving SS payments for
the rest of their life?

I"m not arguing the merits of the gov. assisting parents of children
with serious diseases with money to help with their care. I'm simply
pointing out that SS is not a retirement program, it is a welfare
benefit.

Posted by: Jen the original at May 21, 2015 01:08 PM (JaIou)

Illness like ADD which any quack can be found who will diagnose that for you. SSDI is rapidly bankrupting the system, not old age benefits.

SS was never meant for children and it is an abuse of the system to give it their parents. This abuse should be stopped. Welfare queens like that one a few years ago from Detroit pulling in $70K a year off of SSDI and welfare from the State should not be allowed.

Posted by: Vic We Have No Party at May 21, 2015 01:14 PM (GpgJl)

389 You're preaching to the choir here. It is a welfare program that pays benefits to almost everyone. They sold the program well.

Not hard to sell it when it is taken before you ever see it.

Posted by: rickb223 Straight, Conservative Clinger at May 21, 2015 01:14 PM (le8re)

390 You think Ace will post on Drew's blog?

Posted by: wrg500 at May 21, 2015 01:14 PM (sWgE+)

391 Actually in the beginning of the American Revolution they weren't advocating for an independent nation. They just didn't want to pay England's debt off by paying taxes

Posted by: ThunderB, Overly Provocative at May 21, 2015 01:15 PM (zOTsN)

392 PLEASE let there be a new thread.

They'll roll one out shortbreadly.

Posted by: rickb223 Straight, Conservative Clinger at May 21, 2015 01:15 PM (le8re)

393 Not hard to sell it when it is taken before you ever see it.

-----

The program is popular because everyone will eventually get it (if you live long enough). So even though people are taxed on it, they assume they are "paying in." This is how its been sold - though not what it really is.

Its basically a fraud. But so long as they keep paying out to everyone, a fraud that will be accepted.

Posted by: SH at May 21, 2015 01:16 PM (gmeXX)

394 Call Social Security anything you want, but it was an agreement; rules agreed to under our legal system.

Now old people are dependent on that agreement and the younger generations who have to pay want to change the rules.

The older generations, like the career bureaucrat who played by the rules and worked in government for twenty five or thirty years want their pensions.

What are you going to do, let grandma and grandpa die because you don't want them moving in with you?

Posted by: AllenTK349 at May 21, 2015 01:16 PM (zisR4)

395 You think Ace will post on Drew's blog?

Posted by: wrg500

Awwwwwwwww SNAP!

Posted by: Turd Ferguson at May 21, 2015 01:17 PM (VAsIq)

396 The idea of being a wholly independent nation evolved

Posted by: ThunderB, Overly Provocative at May 21, 2015 01:17 PM (zOTsN)

397 *glances into thread*

Oh. A rising number of bread puns.

*wanders out*

Posted by: RedMindBlueState at May 21, 2015 01:17 PM (h4vJk)

398 The comparison is my problem. It's apples and oranges. A middle class person taking a deduction on their income taxes is much different than the Free Shit Army that is rotting this country.

I also get a tax deduction when I contribute to my 401(k). Is that also the same as me getting a welfare check in your eyes?

What about the reduction in taxes I pay for a capital gain vs salary? Also the same?

I prefer a flat tax, but to say any tax relief that strays from a universal rate is the same as food stamps is a giant leap.

It's the sort of bullshit comparison the Left loves to use
Posted by: McAdams at May 21, 2015 12:45 PM (ijcxA)

_________

Yes it's all the same. At the end of the if the govt sends you $1000 or reduces your taxes by $1000 for doing X (buy a house, buy an electric car, contribute to a 401k), it's the same thing.

And that was my point initially. When the left gets freebies, it's "fucking FSA!!!". When the right gets freebies, it's "hey man, I deserve these tax breaks".

They're both equally bad.

Posted by: HUCK / AKIN 2016 at May 21, 2015 01:17 PM (0LHZx)

399 Actually in the beginning of the American Revolution they weren't advocating for an independent nation. They just didn't want to pay England's debt off by paying taxes

-----

So nothing's changed?

Posted by: SH at May 21, 2015 01:17 PM (gmeXX)

400 Remember at the end of Braveheart and William Wallace shouted out "COMFORT!" with his last breath? Really makes you think.
Posted by: Turd Ferguson at May 21, 2015 01:02 PM (VAsIq)

--------------

I thought it was, "SECURITY"!

Posted by: Soona at May 21, 2015 01:17 PM (AmN81)

401 What are you going to do, let grandma and grandpa die because you don't want them moving in with you?

Posted by: AllenTK349

Hmm....

Yup. Sorry, Gramps.

Posted by: Cold-hearted Bastard at May 21, 2015 01:18 PM (VAsIq)

402 Now old people are dependent on that agreement and the younger generations who have to pay want to change the rules.

------

This isn't a game. We can change the rules at anytime.

Posted by: SH at May 21, 2015 01:18 PM (gmeXX)

403
Very early users of SS got a gold mine, as inflation continues, new dollars in really doesn't pay back.

Posted by: Guy Mohawk at May 21, 2015 01:18 PM (ODxAs)

404 Braveheart was a movie, it was fiction. In reality what William Wallace shouted out was

AAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRGGGHHHHHHHH

I was there.

Posted by: Brian Williams at May 21, 2015 01:19 PM (zisR4)

405 Hmm....

Yup. Sorry, Gramps.

Posted by: Cold-hearted Bastard at May 21, 2015 01:18 PM (VAsIq)

Hey gramps, the tent is in the back. Make sure when you dig the latrine you dig it down wind

Posted by: wrg500 at May 21, 2015 01:19 PM (sWgE+)

406 I will appear on Dancing w/ the Stars wearing a mattress on my back. Remember: the lumpy thing w/ legs is me.

Posted by: Lena Dunham at May 21, 2015 11:23 AM (NPgvx)

I am pleased to announce that upon my graduation from Columbia, that I have been taken in as a partner in a major domestic transportation company. We will now be known as "Two Small Men with Big Hearts, and one Woman with a Big Asshole (and a mattress)."

Posted by: Emma Sulkowicz at May 21, 2015 01:20 PM (sx1z1)

407 So we have 'progressed' from Musical Thursday to Screw Them Thursday.

This too is the story of the leading from behind President.

Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at May 21, 2015 01:20 PM (blHar)

408 Yes it's all the same. At the end of the if the govt sends you $1000 or reduces your taxes by $1000 for doing X (buy a house, buy an electric car, contribute to a 401k), it's the same thing.

And that was my point initially. When the left gets freebies, it's "fucking FSA!!!". When the right gets freebies, it's "hey man, I deserve these tax breaks".

They're both equally bad.

------

I disagree in part. They are not equally bad. Mathematically, they may net the same result, but that does not make them the same. They are quite different.

Posted by: SH at May 21, 2015 01:20 PM (gmeXX)

409 Braveheart was a movie, it was fiction. In reality what William Wallace shouted out was

AAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRGGGHHHHHHHH

I was there.

Posted by: Brian Williams

Hey, Vic, can you settle this for us?

Posted by: Turd Ferguson at May 21, 2015 01:21 PM (VAsIq)

410 To me the worst part about things like the mortgage deduction and the child credit isn't so much the money. It's the social engineering aspect of it. The govt is incentivizing people to buy a house or buy an electric car or have more kids or any of the thousands of actions that will generate a deduction in taxes. It distorts markets and distorts society in general.

Posted by: HUCK / AKIN 2016 at May 21, 2015 01:22 PM (0LHZx)

411 >>390 You think Ace will post on Drew's blog?

If he wants people not to read his post, he can post it here.

Posted by: Garrett at May 21, 2015 01:22 PM (GSTJs)

412 385 >>>Best Weaponized Gluten Covers
Judas Priest - 'Diamonds and Crust

From the Unleashed in the Yeast release?

Kickass records, even if Rob Halford was a bit light in the LOAFers.

OK, I'll stop now.

Posted by: Citizen X at May 21, 2015 01:22 PM (7ObY1)

413 Conservatives of all strips need to have sit down and identify the absolute heart of progressivism and focus every scintilla of energy, every resource and every effort in destroying it.

What is that heart?

Posted by: Ken at May 21, 2015 01:22 PM (LXJ1e)

414 Karl Denninger says that SS is not the problem, Medicare and Medicaid are. In fact he has a detailed post about it today:

http://market-ticker.org/akcs-www?post=230151

Posted by: rickl at May 21, 2015 01:22 PM (zoehZ)

415 La semolina, guajira la semolina
Semo-molinaaaaaa guajira semo-moliiiinaaaa

Posted by: Bigby's Twiddling Thumbs at May 21, 2015 01:23 PM (3ZtZW)

416 There are a metric ton of junior enlisted who take the earned income tax credit

Posted by: ThunderB, Overly Provocative at May 21, 2015 01:23 PM (zOTsN)

417 What are you going to do, let grandma and grandpa die because you don't want them moving in with you?

-----

See the idea is that G & G will die without SS which implies they have shitty offspring. Maybe G & G should move in with their children. Maybe that will have benefits to society.

Posted by: SH at May 21, 2015 01:23 PM (gmeXX)

418 srsly tho

Posted by: Bigby's Twiddling Thumbs at May 21, 2015 01:23 PM (3ZtZW)

419 When we're in the camps, ALL latrines must be dug downwind.

Posted by: Citizen X at May 21, 2015 01:23 PM (7ObY1)

420
OK, I'll stop now.

Posted by: Citizen X at May 21, 2015 01:22 PM (7ObY1)

Sour-dough

Posted by: wrg500 at May 21, 2015 01:23 PM (sWgE+)

421 Yes it's all the same. At the end of the if the govt
sends you $1000 or reduces your taxes by $1000 for doing X (buy a
house, buy an electric car, contribute to a 401k), it's the same thing.

And that was my point initially. When the left gets freebies, it's
"fucking FSA!!!". When the right gets freebies, it's "hey man, I deserve
these tax breaks".

They're both equally bad.

Posted by: HUCK / AKIN 2016

You really are a moron

Yea, guy putting money in his 401(k) for his retirement is the same as a guy living in Section 8 housing with a EBT card and SSDI benefits

I'm sure you abstain from all tax breaks because you don't want to be part of the Free Shit Army.

Posted by: McAdams at May 21, 2015 01:23 PM (ijcxA)

422 Karl Denninger says that SS is not the problem, Medicare and Medicaid are.

------

Its both. And its many other things.

Posted by: SH at May 21, 2015 01:24 PM (gmeXX)

423 They're both equally bad.

Aaaaand, the idiocy begins again...

Posted by: BackwardsBoy, who did not vote for this sh1t at May 21, 2015 01:24 PM (0HooB)

424 413 Conservatives of all strips

Well, it is pantless Thursday.

Posted by: Citizen X at May 21, 2015 01:24 PM (7ObY1)

425 ***"Yes it's all the same. At the end of the if the govt sends you $1000 or
reduces your taxes by $1000 for doing X (buy a house, buy an electric
car, contribute to a 401k), it's the same thing."***

In one scenario, you keep the money you earned.

In the other scenario, you get someone else's money.

The fact that you can't grasp such a fundamental distinction is unsurprising given the frequency with which you beclown yourself here.

Posted by: Burn the Witch at May 21, 2015 01:24 PM (xSCb6)

426 I disagree in part. They are not equally bad. Mathematically, they may net the same result, but that does not make them the same. They are quite different.
Posted by: SH at May 21, 2015 01:20 PM (gmeXX)

__________

I know what you're saying. Giving someone $1000 to sit on their ass isn't the same as giving someone a $1000 tax credit for buying a house. And yeah I suppose you can argue that society benefits more from one vs the other.

But in the end the govt is spending $1000 and two people are pushed into making a decision by the govt that they otherwise wouldn't have made. The welfare collector decides not to bother getting a job, the house buyer decides to buy a house instead of renting. Both actions are a distortion AND costs money. Which is why I say they're equally bad.

Posted by: HUCK / AKIN 2016 at May 21, 2015 01:25 PM (0LHZx)

427 Nood Lauraw.

Posted by: AllenG (DedicatedTenther) - Quietly Seething at May 21, 2015 01:25 PM (kff5f)

428 Well, it is pantless Thursday.
Posted by: Citizen X at May 21, 2015 01:24 PM

Wait...there's a special day for that? *looks around for pants*

Posted by: RedMindBlueState at May 21, 2015 01:25 PM (h4vJk)

429 That's essentially what happened in the UK and
Canada. The Conservative party's platform in both countries is "we will
manage the govt behemoth better than Labor". It's never "we will make
the govt behemoth smaller".

Posted by: HUCK / AKIN 2016 at May 21, 2015 11:34 AM (0LHZx)

Not strictly true in Canada. Long gun registry: gone. Canadian Wheat Board: not totally gone, but its power gutted, can no longer dictate to farmers where they can sell or at what price. That was huge.

Posted by: Alberta Oil Peon at May 21, 2015 01:26 PM (sx1z1)

430 Well, it is pantless Thursday.

Posted by: Citizen X

But it's so hot!

Posted by: Dog who really wants to pant at May 21, 2015 01:26 PM (VAsIq)

431 I'm sure you abstain from all tax breaks because you don't want to be part of the Free Shit Army.
Posted by: McAdams at May 21, 2015 01:23 PM (ijcxA)

________

That's a stupid argument and you know. If the govt is offering me money, I'm not turning it down. But I would much rather prefer I get nothing if everyone else got nothing as well.

But your argument is the same as the left's idiotic argument that nobody who receives SS should want govt to scale down, since they're hypocrites.

Posted by: HUCK / AKIN 2016 at May 21, 2015 01:26 PM (0LHZx)

432 I'm not bothering to follow all the FSA crapola but..... 2 cents:

If you want to LiB get on the dole and hit that hard.

Posted by: Bigby's Twiddling Thumbs at May 21, 2015 01:27 PM (3ZtZW)

433 What is the common theme behind:

gay "marriage"
abortion
gun control
bureaucratic regulation
massive government spending
climate change

Posted by: Ken at May 21, 2015 01:27 PM (LXJ1e)

434 >>>Kickass records, even if Rob Halford was a bit light in the LOAFers.

OK, I'll stop now. <<<

Absolutely. Hey, this may sound odd, but I can appreciate the lads' talents without wanting to fcuk'em. Novel idea, that.

Posted by: Fritz at May 21, 2015 01:28 PM (ty633)

435 n one scenario, you keep the money you earned.

In the other scenario, you get someone else's money.

The fact that you can't grasp such a fundamental distinction is unsurprising given the frequency with which you beclown yourself here.
Posted by: Burn the Witch at May 21, 2015 01:24 PM (xSCb6)

____________

No dude. It's the same thing. A tax credit and a check from the govt are identical. The fact you can't understand this very simple idea tells me you listen to Glenn Beck and Rush Limbaugh, since they make the same wrong point.

A tax credit is the govt paying you do do something. Buy a house and we'll give you money. Rent and we won't give you money. Buy a hybrid car, we'll give you money. Buy a gas powered car, we won't give you money. Have 3 kids, we'll give you $3K. Have no kids, we won't send you anything.

But yeah, that's like totally not getting money from the govt because it's your money to start with....or something.

Thanks for proving my point 100%.

Posted by: HUCK / AKIN 2016 at May 21, 2015 01:30 PM (0LHZx)

436 I know what you're saying. Giving someone $1000 to
sit on their ass isn't the same as giving someone a $1000 tax credit for
buying a house. And yeah I suppose you can argue that society benefits
more from one vs the other.

But in the end the govt is spending $1000 and two people are pushed
into making a decision by the govt that they otherwise wouldn't have
made. The welfare collector decides not to bother getting a job, the
house buyer decides to buy a house instead of renting. Both actions are a
distortion AND costs money. Which is why I say they're equally bad.

Posted by: HUCK / AKIN 2016

Hey jackass, the government is TAKING (read: stealing) less of someone's money when you deduct something like a 401(k) contribution.

The government handing you a credit card to buy food with is GIVING you free shit.

It's sort of like when a lefty say a tax cuts COSTS the government money or it spent X amount of dollars on "tax cuts for the rich".

Posted by: McAdams at May 21, 2015 01:30 PM (ijcxA)

437 Hello from Way Down Here early Friday morning and I
was astounded to hear on the news that our Prime Minister Tony Abbott
has been called callous because he won't bring in the boat people
leaving Bangladesh and Burma who are floating around in an area no where
near OZ

I was very cranky at this bit of nonsense!

Posted by: aussie at May 21, 2015 11:43 AM (X/4BN)

Good to see you, Aussie! What the Indian Ocean needs is some sea monsters that gobble up small boats.

Posted by: Alberta Oil Peon at May 21, 2015 01:30 PM (sx1z1)

438 Alberta Peon:

What the fuck happened in your province...the NDP? In Alberta??!??!

That's like the Socialist Party winning the governor's race in Texas.

Posted by: HUCK / AKIN 2016 at May 21, 2015 01:31 PM (0LHZx)

439 Hey jackass, the government is TAKING (read: stealing) less of someone's money when you deduct something like a 401(k) contribution.

The government handing you a credit card to buy food with is GIVING you free shit.

It's sort of like when a lefty say a tax cuts COSTS the government money or it spent X amount of dollars on "tax cuts for the rich".
Posted by: McAdams at May 21, 2015 01:30 PM (ijcxA)

___________

Math is hard but let's try a simple example.

I owe $10,000 in taxes.
You owe $10,000 in taxes.

You have 2 kids.
I have no kids.

You now owe $8,000 in taxes
I still ower $10,000 in taxes.

You can all it whatever you want, but the fact is the govt just gave you $2000 for having kids. And it is absolutely not at all different than if you received a $2000 check from the govt.

Posted by: HUCK / AKIN 2016 at May 21, 2015 01:32 PM (0LHZx)

440 I agree to the elimination of all tax breaks under the following conditions:

1) Max tax burden of 10%, with first dibs going to local and state governments

2)Elimination of all transfer payments

Posted by: Ken at May 21, 2015 01:33 PM (LXJ1e)

441 And this is why govt will never be cut. Because even so-called hard core fiscal cons will scream about losing their precious tax credits. As usual, it's all about cutting the free cheese from that guy, don't you fucking dare touch my free cheese.

Posted by: HUCK / AKIN 2016 at May 21, 2015 01:34 PM (0LHZx)

442 ***"No dude. It's the same thing."***

No, dude, it's not the same. The only similarity is that they both involve money. That's where the similarity ends. One is a fucking transfer payment for fuck's sake.

I want to thank you for the time-saving effort of frontloading the stupidity in your posts lately.

Posted by: Burn the Witch at May 21, 2015 01:34 PM (xSCb6)

443 Math is hard but let's try a simple example.

I owe $10,000 in taxes.

You owe $10,000 in taxes.

You have 2 kids.

I have no kids.

You now owe $8,000 in taxes

I still ower $10,000 in taxes.

You can all it whatever you want, but the fact is the govt just gave
you $2000 for having kids. And it is absolutely not at all different
than if you received a $2000 check from the govt.

Posted by: HUCK / AKIN 2016

You're the one that's struggling with common sense, no math skills are needed

If I have a $1000 account at a bank and make a $1000 withdrawal, that's legal

If I rob a $1000 from a bank at gunpoint, that's theft

In both cases though, I received a $1000 from the bank

Now do you understand?

Posted by: McAdams at May 21, 2015 01:36 PM (ijcxA)

444 No, dude, it's not the same. The only similarity is that they both involve money. That's where the similarity ends. One is a fucking transfer payment for fuck's sake.

I want to thank you for the time-saving effort of frontloading the stupidity in your posts lately.
Posted by: Burn the Witch at May 21, 2015 01:34 PM (xSCb6)

__________

They are BOTH transfer payments to dolt. But as usual, your welfare is OK. Welfare is only bad, when it's the other guy's.

Posted by: HUCK / AKIN 2016 at May 21, 2015 01:36 PM (0LHZx)

445 You're the one that's struggling with common sense, no math skills are needed

If I have a $1000 account at a bank and make a $1000 withdrawal, that's legal

If I rob a $1000 from a bank at gunpoint, that's theft

In both cases though, I received a $1000 from the bank

Now do you understand?
Posted by: McAdams at May 21, 2015 01:36 PM (ijcxA)

_________

Awful analogy.

A better one would be you have $1000 in the bank and the govt puts an extra $1000. You now have $2000.

The guy on welfare has $0, the govt puts $1000 in his bank account.

In both cases, the govt send $1000.

Why is it so hard for you all to understand this? Tax credits are just a govt check by another name.

Posted by: HUCK / AKIN 2016 at May 21, 2015 01:38 PM (0LHZx)

446
Last Letterman show sucked. Just sayin'.

Posted by: Jon Stewart at May 21, 2015 11:55 AM (NPgvx)

Typical, in other words, then?

Posted by: Alberta Oil Peon at May 21, 2015 01:39 PM (sx1z1)

447 ***"They are BOTH transfer payments to dolt."***

It's amazing that you're able to string together English words in the proper syntax without knowing their meaning.

Posted by: Burn the Witch at May 21, 2015 01:39 PM (xSCb6)

448 Posted by: HUCK / AKIN 2016 at May 21, 2015 01:38 PM (0LHZx)

The only way you could be correct is if all your income belongs to the government from inception. Which, at least in theory, it doesn't.

Posted by: Insomniac at May 21, 2015 01:44 PM (2Ojst)

449 I've also overpaid on my estimated taxes and got a refund credit.

No different than me getting an ObamaPhone really.

Posted by: McAdams at May 21, 2015 01:46 PM (ijcxA)

450 Is Huck trolling or not? Poe's law and all...

Posted by: joe dirt at May 21, 2015 01:47 PM (34w2E)

451 The only way you could be correct is if all your
income belongs to the government from inception. Which, at least in
theory, it doesn't.

Posted by: Insomniac

Exactly, which is how the Left views wealth.

That it all belongs to the government and they get to decide what crumbs they'll give you. If you get to keep more, it's "costing" the government money.

Posted by: McAdams at May 21, 2015 01:49 PM (ijcxA)

452 By George, I think I got it!

A thief comes to my town on a southbound train at 40 mph. I am leaving on a northbound train at 60 mph.

The thief wanted to take $100 from me. I only had $80. I wanted to give $30 to the beggar by the train-tracks.

Since the thief actually wanted $100, he actually DID take $100 from me!

Furthermore, since I wanted to give $30 to the beggar, and now have $0, that clearly means I gave the beggar $100 to the beggar!

---The End---- *insert sad trombone music here*

Posted by: HUCK / FINN 1856, now with brains! at May 21, 2015 01:53 PM (sCHw2)

453
Huck/Akin makes the same mistake lefties always make, and I admit it's one that always bewilders me. If the government doesn't take the sweat of your brow right out of your wallet, that act of not stealing is, in his mind, morally equivalent to the government sending you a benefit check, a subsidy, or a welfare payment.

Those instances are so diametrically opposed, so completely different in all regards, that its a wonder anyone could ever, under any way of thinking, see them as "the same".

Posted by: MTF at May 21, 2015 02:00 PM (FCsIb)

454 I've left the conservative camp for Right Anarchism. The government destroys all institutions it oversees. It's an inherent characteristic of the species.

Posted by: Big Fat Meanie at May 21, 2015 02:11 PM (hqZPQ)

455 No, we like Huck/Akin's thinking. That's why we ruled that American tax cuts to Boeing's earnings are the same thing as French subsidies up front to Airbus.

Posted by: World Trade Organization at May 21, 2015 02:11 PM (8rRE+)

456 As a right-wing Catholic I call myself a Falangist. I don't know what it means other than I can complain about your mistakes.

Posted by: Chris Balsz at May 21, 2015 02:14 PM (8rRE+)

457 What the fuck happened in your province...the NDP? In Alberta??!??!

That's like the Socialist Party winning the governor's race in Texas.

Posted by: HUCK / AKIN 2016 at May 21, 2015 01:31 PM (0LHZx)

We had too many of your type migrating from Eastern Canada, I guess.

Posted by: Alberta Oil Peon at May 21, 2015 02:15 PM (sx1z1)

458 Posted by: HUCK / AKIN 2016 at May 21, 2015 01:38 PM (0LHZx)

Tax credit is returning your own money to you doofus. It's not the governments money. If you've paid no taxes and the government writes you a check it's not their money they are giving away its yours and mine.

Posted by: Cruzinator at May 21, 2015 02:51 PM (8cSVB)

459 Liberty.

Posted by: eman at May 21, 2015 03:23 PM (YA187)

460
I think the divide really is elsewhere.

'what we want to see done (or undone) v. 'what we can achieve within the political realities present'

Posted by: Fishie at May 21, 2015 04:20 PM (iy2lM)

461 "Political realities" is a fake excuse for having elected Republicans who support Democrat policy objectives.

Posted by: Chris Balsz at May 21, 2015 05:05 PM (8rRE+)

Processing 0.05, elapsed 0.059 seconds.
15 queries taking 0.0219 seconds, 470 records returned.
Page size 250 kb.
Powered by Minx 0.8 beta.