Rand Paul Currently Filibustering the Reauthorization of the Patriot Act

There are three alternatives before Congress.

1, reauthorize the Patriot Act, including Section 215, which has been claimed to authorize Obama's mass records collection, subpoenaing every 90 days the metadata/call logs of every single citizen in America.

Note that the principle author of the Patriot Act, James Sensenbrenner, says that he never imagined Section 215 could possibly have this meaning. And a federal court has ruled this executive "interpretation" as an unconstitutional aggrandizement of executive power.

Also note that the plan is to explicitly authorize the mass collection of data in this new version of the law. Thus, the court's finding that it was unconstitutional, as an impermissible "interpretation" of the law, would be moot. The law would now specifically authorize the president to collect All the Records.

2, dump the Patriot Act and pass instead the USA FREEDOM Act. "USA Freedom" is a long, stupid backronym (making up an "acronym" from words you pick just to get the "acronym," like SHIELD, in the movies) that says something about ending mass records collection.

USA Freedom would direct the phone companies -- which have your information anyway, as they must -- to store the data formerly (?) collected under Section 215 for a long period. The US could then subpoena needed records from the phone companies, not in a mass collection, it is averred, but rather seeking only those records responsive to specific search terms.

3. Let the Patriot Act lapse, and do not pass USA Freedom as a substitute -- essentially, stop the NSA from collecting phone records, and also permit the phone companies to continue destroying them after a fairly short period of time.

I know some harder-core civil libertarians who support number 3. I don't.

I remember 9/11. And I remember that on 9/11, we all remembered the Church Committee. The Church Committee was a congressional inquiry in the 1970s to expose CIA wrongdoing in the previous two or three decades and prevent any of it from happening again.

What it was was a great overreaction -- America does not seem to react, only overreact -- which is widely believed to have damaged our intelligence-gathering and hence made us more vulnerable to 9/11 itself.

Now, that's a convenient narrative, which I'm sure is favored by the spooks who let us down before 9/11. The CIA never blames itself for losing an intelligence war; the fault is always that of Congress or the American people, for not giving it X surveillance power and Y means of targeting American residents.

But I do think it is substantially true. And I hear a lot of conservatives, deeply (and justifiably) suspicious of Obama and the Enemy State he rules over, wishing to limit the government's power to harass its citizens.

A government fully empowered to harass terrorists can also use that same power to harass its dissident citizens -- the ultimate terrorists, in the eyes of the power structure.

On the other hand:

A government crippled from ever even having the means of harassing its citizens can also never harass terrorists.

I just see a replay of the 1970s here. The post-9/11 overreaction will be "corrected" with an equally great overreaction in the other direction -- and then, after a major terrorist mass-casualty attack, we'll all go through the same process of overreacting the other way again.

I think it's important that this data be available, somewhere, in the case of a Ticking Time Bomb scenario. Which I think is a completely plausible scenario, and not some kind of wild fiction, as the many unimaginative dullards on the left believe it is.

(Always remember: If it hasn't happened before, it can't happen in the future! Muslim terrorists will never have the atomic bomb, even though the technology is more readily available every day that passes, because they haven't had it in the past!

That's #Science for the #StupidlyUnimaginative!)

Two years ago, when all of this broke, I proposed on the podcast that we pass a law requiring the telecom companies to preserve this data for long periods of time so that it would be available should the need arise.

That struck me as a decent enough proposal then, and it still strikes me as a decent proposal.

I'm told by those in the know that there are "still problems with USA Freedom." Whether they mean it permits the government to do too much, or permits it too little, I don't know.

But those who know also tell me it can be fixed by amendments and it will undergo further changes when (if) the House and Senate reconcile their own versions in conference.

I can't support Section 215 -- an illegal power grab by a paranoid and unbound executive -- but neither can I pretend, as some seem to, that the terrorist threat is over, and maybe never existed, and maybe was just something Dick Cheney made up.

It wasn't. It isn't.

So I support Paul's filibuster of the Patriot Act. Of course, establishment types like Mitch McConnell support renewing the Patriot Act, and adding in explicit authority to do that which Obama has previously simply assumed, because of course Republicans want the government to be as big and powerful as their Democrat counterparts do.

And I support the flawed USA FREEDOM bill, as atrocious as that stupid JV PR branding effort is, as a reasonable compromise.

Update: Mike Lee is now talking about the Church Committee (as part of Paul's filibuster).

Yes, this is because I'm psychic.

Posted by: Ace at 04:23 PM

Comments

(Jump to bottom of comments)

1 Rand Paul has heart attack & dies without any pre-existing conditions or heart disease, film at eleven...

Posted by: OG Celtic-American at May 20, 2015 04:24 PM (y/p2Y)

2 1st

Posted by: mallfly at May 20, 2015 04:24 PM (qSIlh)

3 Yes!!

Posted by: Lizzy at May 20, 2015 04:24 PM (c4ru+)

4 Also, Foist. Science, Bitches!

Posted by: OG Celtic-American at May 20, 2015 04:24 PM (y/p2Y)

5 I say that we conduct a survey.

Posted by: Mike Hammer, etc., etc. at May 20, 2015 04:26 PM (n6Nt0)

6 rats.

anyway, did it stop the Boston Marathon bombing? If I were a prog, that would be all the proof I needed. If I don't like it and it's not perfect, out with it.

Posted by: mallfly at May 20, 2015 04:27 PM (qSIlh)

7 Get him to read HQ comment threads aloud, Ace!!!

Posted by: andycanuck at May 20, 2015 04:27 PM (kivUY)

8 Is anyone else getting tired of living in this kind of world? It all feels like a train crash waiting to happen.

Posted by: Feh at May 20, 2015 04:28 PM (M97F+)

9 The Church Committee? I just had a flashback to the original Mission: Impossible movie with John McLaughlin grilling Tom Cruise playing a Senator.

It's sad that I learned that bit of history from an action film.

Posted by: Austin in TX at May 20, 2015 04:28 PM (lKVc4)

10 Willowed?? I haven't even been here that long!!!

Posted by: Freddy the freeloader (formerly Dennis) at May 20, 2015 04:28 PM (FIvdS)

11 Release the 9/11 report first

Posted by: wrg500 at May 20, 2015 04:28 PM (S+el1)

12 X2 even!

Posted by: Freddy the Freeloader (formerly Dennis) at May 20, 2015 04:28 PM (FIvdS)

13 Frankly I don't have a problem with the PATRIOT act in principle, I just think it needs to be more carefully defined and controlled. All it really does is apply RICO to terrorists.

Mobsters and their lawyers have for a long time been pointing out that RICO is unconstitutional and an absurd violation of legal principles. Basically it codifies guilt by association. On the other hand, it does stomp all over criminals who were otherwise very difficult to catch.

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at May 20, 2015 04:29 PM (39g3+)

14 >>Two years ago, when all of this broke, I proposed on the podcast that we pass a law requiring the telecom companies to preserve this data for long periods of time so that it would be available should the need arise.

Fair enough - but keeping the detailed call/event records containing all of the pertinent characteristics (like location) means a lot of storage space required. A lot. And must be organized in such a way that it is then easily accessible.
So...business opportunity for companies already offering data management, but not cheap for Telcos.

Posted by: Lizzy at May 20, 2015 04:29 PM (c4ru+)

15 Haven't even heard of the "USA FREEDOM" bill.

Posted by: Ricardo Kill at May 20, 2015 04:29 PM (LA7Cm)

16 8 Is anyone else getting tired of living in this kind of world? It all feels like a train crash waiting to happen.

Posted by: Feh at May 20, 2015 04:28 PM (M97F+)

Tell me about it!

Posted by: AMTRAK engineer at May 20, 2015 04:30 PM (t8sr/)

17 Is anyone else getting tired of living in this kind of world? It all feels like a train crash waiting to happen.
Posted by: Feh
----------------------

We are all on board. Obama is at the controls, and the Progs/Leftisits/Liberals are stoking the boiler.

Posted by: Mike Hammer, etc., etc. at May 20, 2015 04:31 PM (n6Nt0)

18 "pass a law requiring the telecom companies to preserve this data for long periods of time so that it would be available should the need arise."

This is a non sequitur. The main goal of mass collection by the government is quick access for intelligence needs.

Posted by: Marus T at May 20, 2015 04:31 PM (GGCsk)

19 It's about trust. Do you trust Government, knowing what you do, with these powers? If so, yes makes sense. If not, no is the only answer.

I've paid attention to what's happened since 9/11.

I know what my answer is.

Posted by: Brother Cavil, down with Eph 6:12 at May 20, 2015 04:32 PM (DT3rQ)

20 Is anyone else getting tired of living in this kind of world? It all feels like a train crash waiting to happen.

Read the back of the book. The good guys win, eventually. Ultimately.

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at May 20, 2015 04:32 PM (39g3+)

21 You can wish and hope all you want. The establishment will do what they want even if it isn't the law.

Posted by: just saying at May 20, 2015 04:32 PM (wkuqO)

22 "...stupid JV PR branding effort..."

Amen to that. I am tired of the cutsie names for laws. It's too juvenile for something serious.

Posted by: Mikey NTH - The Outrage Outlet Buy A Malediction, Get an Imaginary Insult Half Off! at May 20, 2015 04:32 PM (hLRSq)

23 Sorry, I can't in good conscience support either bill. I have no confidence in our current administration and Congress to fucking behave themselves and at least pay lip service to our Constitution.

Posted by: Toastrider at May 20, 2015 04:32 PM (w0vrv)

24 This is a non sequitur. The main goal of mass collection by the government is quick access for ~~intelligence~~ partisan political needs.

Adjusted for the de facto reality.

Posted by: Brother Cavil, down with Eph 6:12 at May 20, 2015 04:33 PM (DT3rQ)

25 And it bears repeating the process by which this is done, accessed by the government and the legal process which underwrites it.

Posted by: Marus T at May 20, 2015 04:33 PM (GGCsk)

26 >>>It all feels like a train crash waiting to happen.<<<

Rest assured we have the technology to prevent this from happening.

Posted by: Fritz at May 20, 2015 04:33 PM (ty633)

27 I'm too rushed to go back and attribute the comment properly, but count me in with the member of the Horde who said that all they require is to hear the oleaginous name "FREEDOM Act" to know that it will do precisely nothing to guarantee their freedom.

The federal government collectively doesn't have the sense to pour piss out of a boot with the instructions written on the heel. If we give them these massively intrusive surveillance powers... _they won't actually use them to keep us safe_.

Data on jihadi terrorists will be collected, and then it'll get ineffectually flushed down the Jamie Gorelick toilet thanks to lawfare and political correctness. Whereas data on you and I will be kept, and aggressively illegally used against us by Lois Lerner types. No thanks. That tradeoff is wholly unsatisfactory.

Posted by: torquewrench at May 20, 2015 04:33 PM (noWW6)

28 And a federal court has ruled this executive "interpretation" as an unconstitutional aggrandizement of executive power.

Ha ha ha ha ha! Fuck them!

Posted by: Emperor Clusterfuck I at May 20, 2015 04:33 PM (YFFpo)

29 I am all for harassing (and prosecuting) terrorists by using the legitimate $th Amendment powers that the government already has, but that they seem to find inconvenient.
Probable Cause, applied on an individual, case-by-case basis, by a real judge, as openly as possible.

Posted by: sock_rat_eez at May 20, 2015 04:33 PM (S0bOl)

30 Since the beginning of the revolutionary war, how many Americans have died for freedom? How many died on 9/11? So should we piss away the freedom the previous multitude died to preserve on the chance that we might lose 3000 to keep them?

Posted by: maddogg at May 20, 2015 04:33 PM (xWW96)

31 Like I thought I tried to say this morning (but did not articulate well), I would be willing to listen to the other side, if they can show what good all this government intrusion has done us.

I'm not even willing to say I know it hasn't foiled terrorist plots, because I don't know. But are we just supposed to take their words for it? At what point do we stop letting them shove hard... eh, choices, down our throats before we've had enough?

Show me how much safer we are with NSA accessing this data, and be specific. If you can't, then f*ck off.

Posted by: BurtTC at May 20, 2015 04:33 PM (TOk1P)

32
How far away do we want a 'turn key police state'

??

I would prefer it be a challenge to make the USA a police state

Posted by: Yo! at May 20, 2015 04:34 PM (W6iIX)

33 They have to get the data to blackmail the Supreme Court.

Posted by: Boss Moss at May 20, 2015 04:34 PM (nDPoN)

34 oops, tried to capitalize "4"

Posted by: sock_rat_eez at May 20, 2015 04:34 PM (S0bOl)

35 Mobsters complained because what's the use of having a big 'family' with 'associates' if the feds can expand wiretapping instead of a warrant to tap the kitchenphone in the Garbone residence. And another for the one in the Garbone some on the Jersey shore. And the one.......

Posted by: Blue Hen at May 20, 2015 04:35 PM (Spluw)

36 Alicia Witt! never mind...

Posted by: LincolnTf at May 20, 2015 04:35 PM (2cS/G)

37 "Adjusted for the de facto reality."

You do understand how it works including the FISA Oversight Process- right?

Posted by: Marus T at May 20, 2015 04:35 PM (GGCsk)

38 Sorry, This a total waste (Patriot Act). They have misused it and withheld info from day 1. Hello Boston! They are monitoring when the actual deed is accomplished. Where were they when the Pamela Geller stuff went down. They knew well this shit was about to hit the fan.

Posted by: Freddy the Freeloader (formerly Dennis) at May 20, 2015 04:35 PM (FIvdS)

39 Ugh Ace one of your scenarios is on the event horizon.

I'm going back to read more but all you have to do is go back to the Liberal arguments opposing Reagan on SDI.

They have been proven on every point by the contretemps to be dangerously wrong and Reagan has been proven to be Right as Rain.

Posted by: River Guide at May 20, 2015 04:35 PM (RJMhd)

40 Msn.com still screwed up. Lead article still all in Scandi gibberish, and links are random (eg, article on mom stabbing kids.... Goes to "invasion of the bee girls" sexploitation film).

Posted by: wooga at May 20, 2015 04:36 PM (nrca1)

41 21. Tyranny --ruled by Obama and the huge unelected bureaucracy of petty tyrants.

Posted by: gracepmc at May 20, 2015 04:36 PM (xvd51)

42 And a federal court has ruled this executive "interpretation" as an unconstitutional aggrandizement of executive power.

Yeah but the Obama Administration has been castigated and ordered repeatedly to stop doing things and reverse decisions and ignored it. Dozens of times. They're on their second court order to stop the illegal alien amnesty memo and just shrugging at the courts.

As Andrew Jackson said "they've made their decision, now let's see them enforce it."

Congress is the only body that can do anything about it, and they won't.

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at May 20, 2015 04:36 PM (39g3+)

43 23 Sorry, I can't in good conscience support either bill. I have no confidence in our current administration and Congress to fucking behave themselves and at least pay lip service to our Constitution.

Posted by: Toastrider at May 20, 2015 04:32 PM (w0vrv)

This. It's not as if they are going to obey a law if they don't want to.

You know what would help prevent terrorism? Profiling Muslims.

Posted by: rickl at May 20, 2015 04:37 PM (zoehZ)

44 You do understand how it works including the FISA Oversight Process- right?

In theory, or in reality?

Because all I need is one look at the IRS to know the theory is bollocks.

Posted by: Brother Cavil, down with Eph 6:12 at May 20, 2015 04:37 PM (DT3rQ)

45 re 13: and RICO was also used in odd ways: LA Times website. 06/29/91:

A federal appeals court Friday overturned the racketeering convictions of six defendants in a case that marked the first time prosecutors had used the organized crime law in a securities fraud case.

In a case involving a defunct securities firm, Princeton/Newport Partners, the U.S. 2nd Circuit Court of Appeals in New York also threw out numerous counts of tax fraud. But it upheld the six defendants' convictions on a conspiracy count, as well as securities fraud charges against two.

Defense lawyers in the case hailed the victory as a vindication of their stand that the federal racketeering law, known as the Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations Act, or RICO, shouldn't have been applied in the case.

In recent months, the federal appeals court in New York has thrown out a number of guilty verdicts in celebrated white-collar criminal cases such as this one that were brought under former U.S. Atty. Rudolph Giuliani.

Posted by: mallfly at May 20, 2015 04:37 PM (qSIlh)

46 It's all good until you elect a president that would use the powers of the IRS, the NSA, the FBI, the Attorney General against his enemies....but hey, that would never happen *NOOD*

Posted by: Mr. KnowItAll at May 20, 2015 04:37 PM (uJK1E)

47
oops, tried to capitalize "4"

The capital of 4 is Sasquatch.

Posted by: Bandersnatch at May 20, 2015 04:37 PM (JtwS4)

48 >>And I support the flawed USA FREEDOM bill, as atrocious as that stupid JV PR branding effort is, as a reasonable compromise.

Although most of the Senate co-sponsors are Democrats, I see that Mike Lee is a co-sponsor.

That's probably good enough for me to support it.

https://www.congress.gov/bill/113th-congress/senate-bill/1599/cosponsors

Posted by: Y-not at May 20, 2015 04:37 PM (RWGcK)

49 Is anyone else getting tired of living in this kind of world? It all feels like a train crash waiting to happen.
Posted by: Feh
----------------------

We are all on board. Obama is at the controls, and the Progs/Leftisits/Liberals are stoking the boiler.Posted by: Mike Hammer, etc., etc...................................................and Robert Shaw and Harrison Ford just blew the bridge...

Posted by: wth at May 20, 2015 04:38 PM (wAQA5)

50 I'll put my vote in for the Freedom Act. But I would like to amend it with the No Incompetence Allowed rider.

Posted by: Cruzinator at May 20, 2015 04:38 PM (8cSVB)

51 "Because all I need is one look at the IRS to know the theory is bollocks."

That's what I thought.

Posted by: Marus T at May 20, 2015 04:38 PM (GGCsk)

52 Willowed from the last thread-Just pulled up images page of Palmyra because I didn't know what it was (other than I'm in my office located on Palmyra Rd. No kidding) and it's easy to see that these ISIS dirtbags could lay waste to that place in about an hour.

If the Iraqis won't stop them, it seems to me that you can mark that place off your todo list.

Posted by: Suppressed Flasher at May 20, 2015 04:38 PM (X+nFp)

53 Who defines "long periods" of time? And how long is it really? Five years? Ten years? Forever? Can this information be used to harass or defame a person's children? Grandchildren? Great grandchildren?

Posted by: Soona at May 20, 2015 04:38 PM (/HX7u)

54 ace: "I remember 9/11. And I remember that on 9/11, we all remembered the Church Committee."

I remember the video of the Rodney King beating, and I remember the subsequent trial. They played and replayed and replayed in slow motion that video, and in the end it was concluded - well after the fact, in a safe courtroom, by people studying information on a TV screen - that the police were justified in giving King the first 17 lumps, but the 18th whack was a violation of his civil rights. (OK, I don't remember the exact number but they did arrive at one.)

How nice it would be if we could know ahead of time precisely how much intelligence our security people need to thwart the next act of terrorism and authorize them to gather exactly that much.

The question isn't How much is enough, because the answer will always be wrong. The proper question is a two-parter: (1) To which side do we err? and (2) How much is an acceptable error?

Posted by: FireHorse at May 20, 2015 04:38 PM (VMA3H)

55 re 47: you know the joke that ends with the line "how do you make a capital 6?"

Posted by: mallfly at May 20, 2015 04:38 PM (qSIlh)

56 The Feds already bsed the warrant process.

Posted by: Boss Moss at May 20, 2015 04:38 PM (nDPoN)

57
"invasion of the bee girls" sexploitation film

Go on...

Posted by: Bandersnatch at May 20, 2015 04:38 PM (JtwS4)

58
Pants on people, you are frightening our new employees

thanks,

Posted by: The NSA at May 20, 2015 04:38 PM (W6iIX)

59 Common sense take Ace.
I'm cool with the data in blind storage, subject to court ordered retrieval.
The Church committee was one of the worst stampedes in an era where stampedes were quite common.
And yes, this bill naming game has really gone past the point of stupid straight to infantile.
And the entire government does it as well, including the military. I'd be happier if they went back to using a random name generator. Call this bill "Sprocket" or "Lavender" or whatever. I wouldn't feel that they think they're talking to a bunch of retards that way.

Posted by: rickinstl at May 20, 2015 04:39 PM (0AEWQ)

60 If the "interpretation" is unconstitutional, so would be an express adoption of said "interpretation."

Posted by: Bitch McTurtle at May 20, 2015 04:39 PM (hKyl0)

61 TSA? Wanna see the prophet?

Posted by: Boss Moss at May 20, 2015 04:40 PM (nDPoN)

62

um
can they retrieve Hillarys emails?

thanks

Posted by: ThunderB at May 20, 2015 04:40 PM (zOTsN)

63 What difference at this point does it make...

Posted by: hello it's Me Donna... again at May 20, 2015 04:40 PM (Bn6aD)

64 Considering that the patriot act was, itself, an overreaction, we should let it die.

I propose a 4th option.

Find the parts of the patriot act that would have prevented something like 9/11 and pass a new law with those and toss the rest of the massive over-reactive dross we don't want or need.

Or is that too rational to ask of congress?

Posted by: McThag at May 20, 2015 04:40 PM (gbNN/)

65 re 54:

The question isn't How much is enough, because the answer will always be wrong. The proper question is a two-parter: (1) To which side do we err? and (2) How much is an acceptable error?

you forgot (3): whom do we allow to make those decisions?

Posted by: mallfly at May 20, 2015 04:40 PM (qSIlh)

66 Me, I'm counting the hours until that repellent photo of Lindsey Graham in green-face falls off of the sidebar.

Posted by: OregonMuse at May 20, 2015 04:40 PM (I8YZX)

67 Note that the principle author of the Patriot Act, James Sensenbrenner, says that he never imagined Section 215 could possibly have this meaning.

But who could have foreseen that? Who? Oh, where oh, where could we find such a person with god-like omniscience? ...

Example No. 545,674,916 why the Federal government should not be given more power.

The power to collect and retrieve all data at will is a power that will be routinely abused. Not occasionally, not just every blue moon, but regularly in perpetuity.

Posted by: weft cut-loop at May 20, 2015 04:40 PM (uctT+)

68 Mobsters complained because what's the use of having a big 'family' with 'associates' if the feds can expand wiretapping instead of a warrant to tap the kitchenphone in the Garbone residence.

Well not to defend organized crime, but they have a good point: where's the protection against search and seizure in this scenario? Where's the 4th amendment if the government can investigate you just for being related to or an associate of someone they're investigating?

Sure it was being abused by the mob. That's what freedom is like, its hard for the good guys when bad guys abuse it. But we all lose if you ignore the constitution in the name of getting the bad guys. We're seeing that play out more and more each year.

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at May 20, 2015 04:40 PM (39g3+)

69 Get him to read HQ comment threads aloud, Ace!!!

Posted by: andycanuck at May 20, 2015 04:27 PM (kivUY)

Reading game of thrones would keep him busy for approximately a million years...

Posted by: Lea at May 20, 2015 04:41 PM (lIU4e)

70 Stop with the pants!!! your causing transphobic microaggressions!

Posted by: Mr. KnowItAll at May 20, 2015 04:41 PM (uJK1E)

71 Those two buildings where the Stasi hides all this info should have the plug pulled.

Posted by: Boss Moss at May 20, 2015 04:41 PM (nDPoN)

72 66 Me, I'm counting the hours until that repellent photo of Lindsey Graham in green-face falls off of the sidebar.
Posted by: OregonMuse at May 20, 2015 04:40 PM (I8YZX)

Agreed. That image would gag a maggot off the gut wagon.

Posted by: maddogg at May 20, 2015 04:41 PM (xWW96)

73 As long as they are monitoring Hillary's email and phone calls I think we're safe. The rest of the country can be left alone.

Posted by: Super Creepy Eric Hoteham at May 20, 2015 04:42 PM (oDCMR)

74
um
can they retrieve Hillarys emails?

thanks
Posted by: ThunderB
...................................
That makes sense, so forget it.

Posted by: NSA at May 20, 2015 04:42 PM (wAQA5)

75

also

can they get Lois Lerners emails?

thanks again

Posted by: ThunderB at May 20, 2015 04:43 PM (zOTsN)

76 You gotta laugh. Some of the same people who give Google and mobile phone companies the same type of access to view all their web access and phone traffic to create profile for advertisers are against a process controlled by a FISA Court.

Posted by: Marus T at May 20, 2015 04:43 PM (GGCsk)

77
Congress has been a joke for a long time.

please tell my why congress needs to pass/maintain a law mandating a certain fuel economy in motor vehicles?

??

Posted by: Yo! at May 20, 2015 04:43 PM (W6iIX)

78 First, us rubes out here in the great plains have to base our conclusions on what we read in the media, and what the politicians tell us. They can not be trusted. Obama demonstrates that.

Second, the bill hasn't been written yet, it's still being amended, and given our recent experience with the language of modern legislation (and Obama), the language is going to be subject to interpretation.

So, let us remember the '40's and the '50's when the FBI wiretapped suspected communist agents. The FBI got one or two, but only when one of the suspects turned on, and informed on the others.

Then the FBI turned their wire taps on organized crime. Again convictions were the result of inside informats. So now the FBI agents 'monitor' jihadi websites, and the odd ball nut case gets baited into saying too much or is lured into a terrorist act by undercover federal agents.

Remember when the NYTimes reported to the world that the US was monitoring 'cell phones in Afghanistan during the hunt for bin Laden? The news stories about how jihadi recruitment was online and the intelligence agencies were 'concerned'.

So what is the point of collecting all that data from unsuspecting, innocent people? It will take an army of agents to look through all that data. Analyze it, investigate the possible connections while the real terrorists don't use electronic communications at all, and instead use only face to face contacts with long trusted people they know.

It's going to take undercover agents, and jihadis who have been turned despite their fanatical belief in the cause, just like it was with the KKK, the mafia, and drug traffickers.

Posted by: Gerry Sitwell at May 20, 2015 04:44 PM (UUGLL)

79 Palmyra is in Syria. I don't doubt that they are also after the airport. Syria is a satellite client state of Russia and an ally of Iran. Syria has long had nuclear aspirations and an interesting read is the Iraeli raid on possible nuclear build up. See:Operation Orchard.

Posted by: River Guide at May 20, 2015 04:44 PM (RJMhd)

80 My issue with option 2 (heh) is that judges rubber stamp subpoenas now. Also see re: John Doe investigations in Wisconsin. See what happened to the True The Vote people.

I don't know how to square the circle. I am a pretty hard core civil libertarian but I do agree that information should be available on a limited, directly identifiable, sharply constrained basis. I just have met human beings and thus know what will happen.

Maybe some variant of 2 but eliminate FISA courts and make any objection to the subpoena set for immediate hearing and appeal?

Oh did I mention the bullshit about NSA sharing information with FBI and DEA and the lessons on how to "sanitize" the data? And all the games being played with police departments refusing to tell courts how/when/where stingray cell towers are being used?

How about you can get it with a subpoena but there will be personal civil and criminal liability for abuses?

I don't know. I do know that ace is correct that no matter what happens, there will be a wild correction in the opposite direction and then a wild correction back and in the meantime there will be all kinds of awfulness.

Posted by: alexthechick - Oh please intervene SMOD at May 20, 2015 04:44 PM (mf5HN)

81 >>>66
Me, I'm counting the hours until that repellent photo of Lindsey Graham in green-face falls off of the sidebar.

Posted by: OregonMuse at May 20, 2015 04:40 PM (I8YZX)<<<

Why can't we just let things be? Personally, I'd like things to be as they were before all the Hope/Change snake-oil was flooding the World......

Posted by: That guy who likes things the way they were at May 20, 2015 04:44 PM (sCHw2)

82
Pants on people, you are frightening our new employees

thanks,
Posted by: The NSA
.................................
pssst, nsa... thanx

Posted by: Samsung Tech Support at May 20, 2015 04:45 PM (wAQA5)

83 Something else that needs to be pointed out is that the 9/11 attacks could have been easily prevented without mass surveillance of the American public.

The jihadi attack teams didn't sneak into the USA. They came in openly as visiting foreign nationals on visas handed out like candy by Uncle Sugar. Student visas, tourist visas. And their tradecraft was shitty. Some of them overstayed their tourist visas. Ones on "student" visas never enrolled at the schools they claimed to be attending.

An even marginally competent government which was intent on protecting its own citizenry would have quickly detected and scooped these guys up. (And locating them wouldn't have been too difficult, as they were going through airport security under their own names as they rehearsed.)

Once picked up for questioning and their Stateside activities walked back (e.g., going to flight school with no interest in learning how to land the plane) and their personal effects gone through, it would have become *immediately* apparent that they were up to no good.

All this without undue scrutiny of the activities of U.S. citizens.

Not. Rocket. Science.

Jeez, Colleen Rowley at the FBI attested as to how close these clowns were to being rolled up even without a formal program to find and question their likes. All that it would have required would have been minimal attention to glaring detail.

Posted by: torquewrench at May 20, 2015 04:45 PM (noWW6)

84

I just think that no matter what the law says they will keep collecting the same amount of data

they'll just lie about it

Posted by: ThunderB at May 20, 2015 04:45 PM (zOTsN)

85 Creepy-ass can! That's what I just thought to myself when I realized that the can of Diet Coke I'm drinking has the word "Friend" emblazoned on the side. The two already in the bin have "BFF" and "Better Half" on their sides. Does it have Electrolytes? That's the only question left.

Posted by: LincolnTf at May 20, 2015 04:45 PM (2cS/G)

86 @77
please tell my why congress needs to pass/maintain a law mandating a certain fuel economy in motor vehicles?
Because of our national defense....and humping whales....

Posted by: Mr. KnowItAll at May 20, 2015 04:45 PM (uJK1E)

87 At least with #2 they get a nice warrant to hang on your wall the ~95%~ of the time a judge just signs whatever gets put in front of him.

Seems reasonable but what proof have they shown of ANY successes against the hirabists with these Big Data searches? Aren't 90+% all related.

Posted by: DaveA at May 20, 2015 04:45 PM (DL2i+)

88 I wonder if the people who bought the hope and chance stupidity think back and wonder where it all went so wrong? I mean... the country is basically hopeless and the only change was for the worse. Unless you're one of the super rich or run a massive bank or corporation.

Speaking of which did you see this news? Five banks are being fined almost six billion dollars for currency market manipulation. JPMorgan, Barclays, Citigroup, UBS, and RBS are involved.

http://tinyurl.com/mah3mlf

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at May 20, 2015 04:46 PM (39g3+)

89 This taints the NSA.

Posted by: Boss Moss at May 20, 2015 04:46 PM (nDPoN)

90 Posted by: ThunderB at May 20, 2015 04:45 PM (zOTsN)

That's the way it's always been done.

Posted by: Cruzinator at May 20, 2015 04:47 PM (8cSVB)

91 Posted by: River Guide at May 20, 2015 04:44 PM (RJMhd)

Thanks for the location correction. As I said, I didn't know what and obviously where it was till now.

A humble ht to the River Guide.

Posted by: Suppressed Flasher at May 20, 2015 04:47 PM (X+nFp)

92 So what is the point of collecting all that data from unsuspecting, innocent people? It will take an army of agents to look through all that data. Analyze it, investigate the possible connections while the real terrorists don't use electronic communications at all, and instead use only face to face contacts with long trusted people they know.
Posted by: Gerry Sitwell

Not everyone has divorce decrees to unseal.

Posted by: Blue Hen at May 20, 2015 04:47 PM (Spluw)

93 Peter King just said Rand and Cruz "appeal to the lowest common denominator"

Posted by: ThunderB at May 20, 2015 04:47 PM (zOTsN)

94 The goverment once did a complete search of all my phone and email records.....and charged with having a boring f'n life.......(2 counts)

Posted by: Mr. KnowItAll at May 20, 2015 04:47 PM (uJK1E)

95 "please tell my why congress needs to pass/maintain a law mandating a certain fuel economy in motor vehicles?"

And also maybe point out where Clowngress are even _authorized in the first place_ to be passing and maintaining such laws, given the Tenth Amendment.

Posted by: torquewrench at May 20, 2015 04:47 PM (noWW6)

96 No matter what happens obama will ignore it and do what He wants....

Posted by: hello it's Me Donna... again at May 20, 2015 04:47 PM (Bn6aD)

97
Pants on people, you are frightening our new employees

thanks,
Posted by: The NSA
.................................
Why, are they afraid of crapping in the hallways?

Posted by: The EPA at May 20, 2015 04:48 PM (wAQA5)

98 Something else that needs to be pointed out is that the 9/11 attacks could have been easily prevented without mass surveillance of the American public.

Yeah all it would have taken is some good basic police work ignoring the PC pressure. Immigration should have dealt with the expired visas, the names and origins should have flagged concerns when they were learning to fly jets, etc.

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at May 20, 2015 04:48 PM (39g3+)

99 but not cheap for Telcos.

Storage is incredibly cheap and falling and this stuff is already org'd for billing.

I'm not sure where ace gets the ticking clock thing though. I'd expect most searches to be low urgency trace the network stuff.

Posted by: DaveA at May 20, 2015 04:48 PM (DL2i+)

100 3
Peter King just said Rand and Cruz "appeal to the lowest common denominator"

Peter King is an ass hole...

Posted by: hello it's Me Donna... again at May 20, 2015 04:48 PM (Bn6aD)

101 Get him to read HQ comment threads aloud, Ace!!!
Posted by: andycanuck at May 20, 2015 04:27 PM (kivUY)

Rand can start with my pleasant discussion of Mitch from earlier today.

Posted by: alexthechick - Oh please intervene SMOD at May 20, 2015 04:49 PM (mf5HN)

102 I'm sure however they wind up, there will be more bureaucracy, more spending and more inefficiency. The worthless TSA will survive and probably expand exponentially and the next threat this nation faces, both sides will be saying, "Why weren't these programs adequately funded?" Because when government gets so big, that is the only possible answer there is to anything - more money.

Posted by: LoneStarHeeb at May 20, 2015 04:49 PM (BZAd3)

103
Any powers bestowed to government are not rescinded, those powers only grow through different administrations interpretations in the need of the moment.
I am confident the Bengazi blamed Youtube vidiot maker agrees with me.

Posted by: booter at May 20, 2015 04:49 PM (Lg1F3)

104 From NYT, where they stand on the USA Freedom Act and Patriot act:

Among the likely Republican presidential contenders, while Mr. Cruz favors the bill passed by the House, Senator Marco Rubio of Florida supports Mr. McConnell's approach. Mr. Paul said the reform bill did not go far enough, a position now posited by some privacy groups in light of the court decision.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/14/us/house-votes-to-end-nsas-bulk-phone-data-collection.html

Posted by: Y-not at May 20, 2015 04:49 PM (RWGcK)

105 The feds are going to mandate everything due to "climate change". Check out Teh Won's speech for the Coast Guard Academy...

Posted by: anon a mouse at May 20, 2015 04:49 PM (C9pBZ)

106 Barack Obama is a SCOAMT.

Posted by: AllenG (DedicatedTenther) - Quietly Seething at May 20, 2015 04:49 PM (kff5f)

107 Advantage: Cruz, imho.

Posted by: Y-not at May 20, 2015 04:49 PM (RWGcK)

108 Burn it down.
Scatter the stones.
Salt the earth where it stood.

Posted by: AllenG (DedicatedTenther) - Quietly Seething at May 20, 2015 04:49 PM (kff5f)

109 They look at the data and then they get a warrant to get what they know is there.

Posted by: Boss Moss at May 20, 2015 04:49 PM (nDPoN)

110
Peter King just said Rand and Cruz "appeal to the lowest common denominator"

I'm surprised he beat McCain and Miss Lindsey to the punch.

Posted by: some random meathead at May 20, 2015 04:49 PM (NUCTk)

111 And if it's all left at the telcos then it can all be "lost" as needed if DC goes Nazi.

Posted by: DaveA at May 20, 2015 04:50 PM (DL2i+)

112 Considering that the Church Committee crippled the intelligence gathering capabilities of the CIA and other organizations by limiting how they were allowed to gather data and execute decisions based on it I'd have to say that any new laws will still hinder the abilities of our intelligence services.

BTW, when you don't have that intelligence you are reactionary to attacks rather than being proactive to prevent them from occurring.

9-11 could have been stopped if agencies were allowed to pool their data to get a better picture of the group that was already known but laws passed by Congress after the Church Committee findings were released prevented that. You can thank Democrats who were hell bent to stop any domestic intelligence gathering for that little gift.

Posted by: Gmac- Pulling in feelers in preperation... at May 20, 2015 04:50 PM (4CRfK)

113 I'm sure however they wind up, there will be more bureaucracy, more spending and more inefficiency. The worthless TSA will survive and probably expand exponentially and the next threat this nation faces, both sides will be saying, "Why weren't these programs adequately funded?" Because when government gets so big, that is the only possible answer there is to anything - more money.
Posted by: LoneStarHeeb

And more engineers!!!! Being paid more money!!

Posted by: Amtrak union at May 20, 2015 04:50 PM (Spluw)

114 Yeah psychic sure. It totally doesn't have anything to do with that time machine you totally don't have.

Posted by: Buzzion at May 20, 2015 04:50 PM (fRdoO)

115 Not sharing intelligence between agencies was a big screw up. Unfortunately they over corrected in attempt to resolve that problem.

Posted by: Cruzinator at May 20, 2015 04:50 PM (8cSVB)

116 The jihadi attack teams didn't sneak into the USA. They came in openly as visiting foreign nationals on visas handed out like candy by Uncle Sugar.

This. This. OMFG This.

Posted by: Brother Cavil, down with Eph 6:12 at May 20, 2015 04:51 PM (DT3rQ)

117 I more or less agree with Ace.

The phone companies collect the data anyway. Make them responsible for storing it. Then when the government (get this: at any level) can show Probable Cause that they need that data, they can (get this) get a warrant.

Posted by: AllenG (DedicatedTenther) - Quietly Seething at May 20, 2015 04:51 PM (kff5f)

118

Jaime Gorelik

that bitch

Posted by: ThunderB at May 20, 2015 04:51 PM (zOTsN)

119 RE: reading Ace comments into the congressional record; it would be tough reading all these while maintaining any sort of proper composure and dignity. I mean, other peoples' comments, not mine. People who are funny.

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at May 20, 2015 04:51 PM (39g3+)

120 I agree with a commenter upthread. Let's stop with the fucking political correctness and start concentrating on the people perpetuating most of theatrocities in this nation and world; muzzies. If we'd do that then we wouldn't need these grand, oversweeping, puzzles of unconstitutional laws.

Posted by: Soona at May 20, 2015 04:51 PM (/HX7u)

121
>>>And also maybe point out where Clowngress are even _authorized in the first place_ to be passing and maintaining such laws, given the Tenth Amendment.

that's in the 'Good and Plenty ' clause, look it up!

Posted by: Congressmen John Conyers at May 20, 2015 04:51 PM (W6iIX)

122 You conservatives and your "privacy"!

Too cute!

Posted by: Google at May 20, 2015 04:51 PM (NUCTk)

123 Jamie Gorelick Whateve. still a bitch

Posted by: ThunderB at May 20, 2015 04:51 PM (zOTsN)

124 93 Peter King just said Rand and Cruz "appeal to the lowest common denominator"
--

Peter King is a moron.

"We have an obligation to protect the constitutional rights of every American," said Senator Ted Cruz, Republican of Texas. "The USA Freedom Act ends the federal government's bulk collection of phone metadata from millions of law-abiding citizens. That's the right thing to do."

Posted by: Y-not at May 20, 2015 04:52 PM (RWGcK)

125 Not sharing intelligence between agencies was a big screw up. Unfortunately they over corrected in attempt to resolve that problem.

Yeah seems like all that was needed was a policy shift and having the DNI be more proactive in getting agencies to share, not a gigantic multibillion dollar uber agency. What the hell? And could the name be any more creepy and Orwellian? Department of Homeland Security? Are you serious?

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at May 20, 2015 04:52 PM (39g3+)

126 The US government is not trustworthy enough to entrust with this power.

Posted by: Pappy O'Daniel at May 20, 2015 04:53 PM (oVJmc)

127

Jamie Gorelick. That is all.

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at May 20, 2015 04:54 PM (St6BJ)

128 The jihadi attack teams didn't sneak into the USA. They came in openly as visiting foreign nationals on visas handed out like candy by Uncle Sugar.

Boston jihadis were given welfare to be here, and uncle sugar blew off the alarms to watch them.

Almost like they wanted them to do something.

Posted by: rickb223 Straight, Conservative Clinger at May 20, 2015 04:54 PM (2hFl3)

129 "And their tradecraft was shitty."

There's another thing. Anyone who's ever seen GoodFellas knows to not talk on the phone. Assuming that the CIA (or whoever) could gather and analyze every telephone call in the world, it wouldn't help them at all if the bad guys stay off the phone.

Posted by: FireHorse at May 20, 2015 04:54 PM (VMA3H)

130 The GOP is just as dangerous to America as the Democrats.

Posted by: Null at May 20, 2015 04:55 PM (xjpRj)

131 No way in the world the feds aren't going to use that brand new data collection/storage/whatever the hell thingy in Utah.

Too big too expensive and most importantly to new and shiny not to use.

So whatever bs comes out of Congress if that place isn't mothballed it's all lies.

Posted by: Suppressed Flasher at May 20, 2015 04:55 PM (X+nFp)

132 Wouldn't a killing of the Patriot Act mean more and not effect security if we also made the borders as airtight at possible?

I wan't the Patriot Act if any asshole can walk across the border and evidently, they are.

Posted by: Seems Legit at May 20, 2015 04:55 PM (A98Xu)

133 The jihadi attack teams didn't sneak into the USA. They came in openly as visiting foreign nationals on visas handed out like candy by Uncle Sugar.

So, in the time since 9/11 we've just about double the muslim population in this country.

Posted by: wrg500 at May 20, 2015 04:55 PM (S+el1)

134 "Sharing intelligence" was an issue for 9/11?

Horseshit. Had INS done their job, none of them would've been in the states on 9/10.

Posted by: anon a mouse at May 20, 2015 04:55 PM (C9pBZ)

135 The US government is not trustworthy enough to entrust with this power.

Remember, that's what the left (and some libertarians) were saying when we defended Bush's power to wiretap to catch terrorists. They had a point; but so did we. Sometimes there isn't time to get proper authorization.

The problem is we didn't know then what we know now; that since the Clinton era and maybe earlier (papa Bush did run the CIA remember) they've been collecting data on everyone, everywhere and sifting through it. Until recently nobody used it as a political weapon but the possibility was always there.

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at May 20, 2015 04:55 PM (39g3+)

136
Peter King is a raging asshole of the first magnitude. Your New York State GOP at work, folks.

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at May 20, 2015 04:55 PM (St6BJ)

137 >>>Peter King just said Rand and Cruz "appeal to the lowest common denominator"<<<

Speaking of lowest common denominator, how the hell am I supposed to feed little Timmy and his neighborhood friends at the local holiday bbq when ground beef (or as my Jersey co-worker calls it, "chop meat"), is fcuking $4.69 a pound! I'm considering taking up cattle-rustling as a hobby.

Posted by: Fritz at May 20, 2015 04:55 PM (ty633)

138 Posted by: Christopher Taylor at May 20, 2015 04:52 PM (39g3+

It's the least of that mistake but the name always bothered the crap out of me.

Posted by: Cruzinator at May 20, 2015 04:55 PM (8cSVB)

139 I cannot recall a single Ted Cruz statement that I haven't agreed with. That must scare the liquid brown out of the leftards.

Posted by: maddogg at May 20, 2015 04:56 PM (xWW96)

140 128 Boston jihadis were given welfare to be here, and uncle sugar blew off the alarms to watch them.

Almost like they wanted them to do something.
Posted by: rickb223 Straight, Conservative Clinger at May 20, 2015 04:54 PM (2hFl3)

Putin - P U T I N - warned us about them. Repeatedly.

And yet, metadata.

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at May 20, 2015 04:56 PM (St6BJ)

141 Suppressed Flasher

Hey I love any excuse to pimp the ties between Syria and Iran, and their nuclear aspirations.

Posted by: River Guide at May 20, 2015 04:57 PM (RJMhd)

142 Keeping your phone records safe for democracy.

Posted by: Boss Moss at May 20, 2015 04:57 PM (nDPoN)

143 137 Posted by: Fritz at May 20, 2015 04:55 PM (ty633)

Shoplifting. The smarter alternative to cattle rustling.

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at May 20, 2015 04:57 PM (St6BJ)

144
>>>>
I'm considering taking up cattle-rustling as a hobby.

I'm in, I'm tired of this rubber chicken, bro-science, protein

Posted by: Dom Mazetti at May 20, 2015 04:57 PM (W6iIX)

145 No way in the world the feds aren't going to use that brand new data collection/storage/whatever the hell thingy in Utah.

Too big too expensive and most importantly to new and shiny not to use.

So whatever bs comes out of Congress if that place isn't mothballed it's all lies.
Posted by: Suppressed Flasher at May 20, 2015 04:55 PM (X+nFp)

Did Utah ever vote to cut off the water to that place?

Because that was an awesome, awesome, awesome idea.

Posted by: alexthechick - Oh please intervene SMOD at May 20, 2015 04:58 PM (mf5HN)

146 I wonder if the people who bought the hope and chance stupidity think back and wonder where it all went so wrong? I mean... the country is basically hopeless and the only change was for the worse. Unless you're one of the super rich or run a massive bank or corporation. Speaking of which did you see this news? Five banks are being fined almost six billion dollars for currency market manipulation. JPMorgan, Barclays, Citigroup, UBS, and RBS are involved. http://tinyurl.com/mah3mlf
Posted by: Christopher Taylor at May 20, 2015 04:46 PM (39g3+)

---------------------------------------

C'mon. It's not a fine. It's the fed wetting their beaks in the banking largess. It's a scam. And the banks probably agreed to this arrangement back in 2009.

Posted by: Soona at May 20, 2015 04:58 PM (/HX7u)

147 I've said it before - freedom is dangerous. Free people take risks - they innovate and shit. They are also dangerous to others; people who would threaten their freedom.

It's reasonable to expect a fair amount of security from the government, but (imio) the Patriot Act is waay over the line.

We need something else, something a lot less, and the TSA needs to go away, as does a significant amount of the Dept of Homeland Security. (My father said that Homeland Security reminded him of Der Fatherland - me too.) Put airline security back on the airlines - mandate it would be ok. They would do a much better job, far more cheaply and efficiently.

Posted by: LoneStarHeeb at May 20, 2015 04:58 PM (BZAd3)

148 The Senator from Assholia is an @sshole? Who knew?

Posted by: Boss Moss at May 20, 2015 04:58 PM (nDPoN)

149 145 Did Utah ever vote to cut off the water to that place?

Because that was an awesome, awesome, awesome idea.
Posted by: alexthechick - Oh please intervene SMOD at May 20, 2015 04:58 PM (mf5HN)

Miike Lee is the Senator from . . . But then again, Orrin Snatch.

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at May 20, 2015 04:59 PM (St6BJ)

150 Boston jihadis were given welfare to be here, and uncle sugar blew off the alarms to watch them.

This is the problem. Great, they have all these tools and technology and they're sifting through all the texts and phone calls and have cameras everywhere. But they aren't using any of it intelligently. And it goes beyond the usual government hall-crapping, porn-browsing incompetence; they're actively attempting not to use the info they have to avoid being racist and violating someone's multiculturalism or something. Its like they're deliberately being stupid.

So in the end, all it ends up being is a method of collecting data on ordinary normal Americans.

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at May 20, 2015 04:59 PM (39g3+)

151 Mike Lee is now talking about the Church Committee (as part of Paul's filibuster).

Yes, this is because I'm psychic.

Or because some of the smarter Republicans have staff who read the HQ.

Posted by: AllenG (DedicatedTenther) - Quietly Seething at May 20, 2015 05:00 PM (kff5f)

152 9/11 could have been prevented by just half-ass enforcing immigration laws already on the books.

Fighting terrorism within our borders does not require a massive surveillance state where every Americans phone records are being collected.

If we don't draw the line here, they are going to keep going. Count on it.

Posted by: McAdams at May 20, 2015 05:00 PM (RHh6e)

153 Heinrich Himmler of New Mexico.

Posted by: Boss Moss at May 20, 2015 05:00 PM (nDPoN)

154 C'mon. It's not a fine. It's the fed wetting their beaks in the banking largess. It's a scam.

Well its probably a fine but... $6 billion is what, a month's profits for these guys? They have that much set aside in petty cash.

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at May 20, 2015 05:00 PM (39g3+)

155
It is a Tax !!!

A Tax !!!!

!!

Posted by: Justice John Roberts at May 20, 2015 05:00 PM (W6iIX)

156
Everything that guy just said is bullshit!.

15 minutes - tick tock tick tock

"To quote a wise and wonderful American, 'everything that guy just said is billshit.'"

- - Mike Lee, 15 minutes from now.

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at May 20, 2015 05:01 PM (St6BJ)

157 They had the Patriot Act. They had a warning from the Russkies. And still two snot nosed morons with a Walmart pressure cooker and a thousand black cat firecrackers blew up the Boston Marathon.

Posted by: maddogg at May 20, 2015 05:01 PM (xWW96)

158 It is a Tax !!!

A Tax !!!!

!!

Posted by: Justice John Roberts at May 20, 2015 05:00 PM (

I'm mad enough don't remind Me...

Posted by: hello it's Me Donna... again at May 20, 2015 05:01 PM (Bn6aD)

159 Put airline security back on the airlines - mandate it would be ok. They would do a much better job, far more cheaply and efficiently.

You wouldn't even have to mandate it (which would imply federal regulations and regulators). Simply make them statutorily liable for any breech of security (or whatever).

No mandate, they'll simply take care of it because it's cheaper than settling the lawsuits.

Posted by: AllenG (DedicatedTenther) - Quietly Seething at May 20, 2015 05:02 PM (kff5f)

160 The third option is the only sane way to go.

Posted by: Just A Guy at May 20, 2015 05:02 PM (CGzAz)

161 Jaime Gorelik

that bitch

The Gorelick - an unit of measure of Purposely Stupid National Disaster.

Odds are she's caused ISIS somehow.

Posted by: DaveA at May 20, 2015 05:02 PM (DL2i+)

162 "We need something else, something a lot less, and the TSA needs to go away, as does a significant amount of the Dept of Homeland Security."

I was somewhat apprehensive at the Patriot Act when it was passed but I was downright opposed to DHS. The FBI, CIA, Coast Guard, Border Patrol, and, Customs aren't enough Federal authority already? Really?

Posted by: Ricardo Kill at May 20, 2015 05:02 PM (LA7Cm)

163 "I cannot recall a single Ted Cruz statement that I haven't agreed with."

If he doesn't win the nomination, he'll probably go on vacation somewhere, and I'll be tempted to follow him and say, "I'm forming a new country, right here, and I want you to be the president. What do you say, Mr. President? Will you lead the Republic of Sandals?"

Posted by: FireHorse at May 20, 2015 05:02 PM (VMA3H)

164 9-11 could have been stopped if agencies were allowed to pool their data to get a better picture of the group that was already known but laws passed by Congress after the Church Committee findings were released prevented that. You can thank Democrats who were hell bent to stop any domestic intelligence gathering for that little gift.

Posted by: Gmac

Do you know where was Zacarias Moussaoui in Aug. 16, 2001?

In jail after being arrested by the FBI.

Per wiki:
"On August 16, 2001, Moussaoui was arrested by Harry Samit of the FBI and INS agents in Minnesota and charged with an immigration violation.[21] Materials itemized when he was arrested included a laptop computer, two knives, flight manuals pertaining to Boeing's 747 aircraft, a flight simulator computer program, fighting gloves and shin guards, and a computer disk with information about crop dusting."

No universal surveillance needed.

Posted by: weft cut-loop at May 20, 2015 05:03 PM (uctT+)

165 161 Jaime Gorelik

that bitch

The Gorelick - an unit of measure of Purposely Stupid National Disaster.

Odds are she's caused ISIS somehow.
Posted by: DaveA at May 20, 2015 05:02 PM (DL2i+)

You can't spell Gorelick without "GORE."

and Lick.

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at May 20, 2015 05:03 PM (St6BJ)

166 Chelsea Clinton got a book deal

The book aims to inspire young people to "change the world" and will cover issues including poverty and gender equality

Posted by: wrg500 at May 20, 2015 05:03 PM (S+el1)

167 Here's the thing... the idea that whatever unimaginable future calamity terrorists could unleash (much like 9/11 was unimaginable) could be both uncovered by the FBI / CIA, and more importantly, STOPPED by them is the part that is really unimaginable.

No, the terrorist threat is not over. But granting the government massively unwieldy powers is not some magic bullet that will stop a terrorist attack. More likely, the very existence of this massively unwieldy power begs the agencies with that power to find a use for it when the intended use is so miniscule as to be unimaginable.

Sorry, no to section 215 in any form. That is a power that is too great in any hands and is 100 times more likely to be abused than to ever be utilized to good effect for its intended purpose.

Posted by: deadrody at May 20, 2015 05:03 PM (meyeF)

168 " Put airline security back on the airlines - mandate it would be ok. They would do a much better job, far more cheaply and efficiently. "

They can do that now but with the TSA doing it for them it removes the liability from them and they like that.

Posted by: Ricardo Kill at May 20, 2015 05:03 PM (LA7Cm)

169 Lets put it this way: airport security was at least as good before 9/11 as it is now. They didn't fail, they just figured there's no damn way someone is going to take over an airplane full of people with a boxcutter. And it never should have happened, except the passengers figured "annoying, but they'll just land us somewhere weird and we'll get home late."

Seriously. Who lets a couple scruffy guys hold the entire plane of over 100 people hostage with half a razor blade?

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at May 20, 2015 05:03 PM (39g3+)

170 Coast Guard,

They're too busy saving the World from Global warming don't You know.... obama told them that's the single greatest threat to the World...

Posted by: hello it's Me Donna... again at May 20, 2015 05:04 PM (Bn6aD)

171 As long as we have people like Jamie Gorlik and her ilk, the gov. is the boss. we no longer have any say to what is going on. Until the voters are respected again (i.e. term limits) this is what will be the rule. We are ruled by an anarchy of "elites"

Posted by: Freddy the Freeloader (formerly Dennis) at May 20, 2015 05:04 PM (FIvdS)

172 Kill the Patriot Act
Break the GOPe

Sounds like a Twofer

Posted by: Bitch McTurtle at May 20, 2015 05:04 PM (hKyl0)

173 Data on jihadi terrorists will be collected, and
then it'll get ineffectually flushed down the Jamie Gorelick toilet
thanks to lawfare and political correctness. Whereas data on you and I
will be kept, and aggressively illegally used against us by Lois Lerner
types. No thanks. That tradeoff is wholly unsatisfactory.

Posted by: torquewrench at May 20, 2015 04:33 PM (noWW6)~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~EXACTLY

Posted by: deadrody at May 20, 2015 05:04 PM (meyeF)

174 164 No universal surveillance needed.
Posted by: weft cut-loop at May 20, 2015 05:03 PM (uctT+)

If we were allowed to do one tenth of what the Israeli Shin Bet do, we'd have captured all of the bastards within 48 hours.

But, GORELICK.

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at May 20, 2015 05:04 PM (St6BJ)

175 Martin Heinrich is a cutie.

Posted by: m at May 20, 2015 05:04 PM (WIUGG)

176 "CC got a payoff"

There, fify

Posted by: anon a mouse at May 20, 2015 05:05 PM (C9pBZ)

177 >>>ho defines "long periods" of time? And how long is it really? Five years? Ten years? Forever? Can this information be used to harass or defame a person's children? Grandchildren? Great grandchildren?

um, I think they actually specify, but, 1, I had to get the post up and didn't have the time to search through the bill, and 2, such details can and probably will be changed down the line.

I think we're talking like 5-10 years.

Posted by: ace at May 20, 2015 05:05 PM (PA7DS)

178 Nice move Lard @ss.

Posted by: Boss Moss at May 20, 2015 05:05 PM (nDPoN)

179 the idea that whatever unimaginable future calamity terrorists could unleash (much like 9/11 was unimaginable) could be both uncovered by the FBI / CIA, and more importantly, STOPPED by them is the part that is really unimaginable.

That, too. A country with real Freedom is one that is inimical to preventative policing. That includes "national security." There can't be probable cause that you have committed a crime until you have committed a crime.

Posted by: AllenG (DedicatedTenther) - Quietly Seething at May 20, 2015 05:05 PM (kff5f)

180 Little known fact: Frank Church was the original model for the StayPuft Marshmallow Man.

Posted by: pep at May 20, 2015 05:05 PM (LAe3v)

181 166 Chelsea Clinton got a book deal

The book aims to inspire young people to "change the world" and will cover issues including poverty and gender equality
Posted by: wrg500 at May 20, 2015 05:03 PM (S+el1)

. . . and funnel $50 million to the Don Vito Clitonio.

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at May 20, 2015 05:05 PM (St6BJ)

182 Remember also that the names of the hijackers were known that same day on 9/11. And by the next day everyone who had any contact with the hijackers were detained for questioning. One guy rented an apartment to one(some) of the hijackers, as I remember it. Someone rented a car. There were 'handlers' who met the hijackers when they arrived in the US and facilitated their settlement into our society and aided their 'reconnaissance' trips. That all happened the next day.

When as an investigation ever moved that quickly before, and this was before the Patriot act was passed.

Posted by: Gerry Sitwell at May 20, 2015 05:05 PM (UUGLL)

183 Peter King. Irish Republican Army supporter. waterboard that motherfucker.

Posted by: X at May 20, 2015 05:06 PM (n5fTN)

184 I was somewhat apprehensive at the Patriot Act when it was passed but I was downright opposed to DHS.

Yeah I think just about every conservative was on that page. PATRIOT Act, maybe, I can see it sort of. Department of Homeland Security? Why the heck do we need that???

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at May 20, 2015 05:06 PM (39g3+)

185 I agree with you, Ace.

And hopefully, we will replace the incompetents in the relevant orgs with better people at some point. Because, the govt seems incapable of catching even the most incompetent terrorists even with all our data available to them.

Posted by: chique d'afrique (the artist formerly known as african chick) at May 20, 2015 05:06 PM (it63v)

186 So will all the data collections, we didn't catch the Boston Marathon bombers. We didn't even catch the Fort Hood psychiatrist who practically had "jihadi" written on his business card.

And yet they want to collect MY data ad nauseum?! NO THANKS.

[I would be willing to discuss this compromise, perhaps. But the current system? Not cool.]

Posted by: Insert Clever Name Here at May 20, 2015 05:06 PM (XMX7O)

187 Almost 60% of Utah is federal land.

Posted by: River Guide at May 20, 2015 05:06 PM (RJMhd)

188 They had the Patriot Act. They had a warning from the Russkies. And still two snot nosed morons with a Walmart pressure cooker and a thousand black cat firecrackers blew up the Boston Marathon.

Posted by: maddogg at May 20, 2015 05:01 PM
________

They also had guardsmen with automatic weapons at the airports, and the shoe bomber still got his shoe bomb onto a plane, to be taken down by two passengers and a flight attendant.

Posted by: FireHorse at May 20, 2015 05:06 PM (VMA3H)

189 169, never, never fight back. That makes you the same as the terrorists.

/progressives

Posted by: anon a mouse at May 20, 2015 05:07 PM (C9pBZ)

190 "I think there's no way that we can square this bulk collection with the Fourth Amendment."
--Rand Paul, a minute ago
In which the meaning of the word "this" is crucial.

Posted by: m at May 20, 2015 05:07 PM (WIUGG)

191 Seriously. Who lets a couple scruffy guys hold the entire plane of over 100 people hostage with half a razor blade?

Posted by: Christopher Taylor

The only thing I can think is they maybe grabbed like a baby and put the razor to their throat?

Obviously, that scheme was a one time deal, a plane full of passengers will not comply with a terrorist regardless of whatever weapon they have post- 9/11. They know the rules of jihad, everyone dies unless the terrorist is killed first.

Posted by: McAdams at May 20, 2015 05:07 PM (RHh6e)

192 They should free that building of electricity and water for several weeks in July.

Posted by: Boss Moss at May 20, 2015 05:07 PM (nDPoN)

193 Put airline security back on the airlines - mandate it would be ok. They would do a much better job, far more cheaply and efficiently.

You wouldn't even have to mandate it (which would imply federal regulations and regulators). Simply make them statutorily liable for any breech of security (or whatever). No mandate, they'll simply take care of it because it's cheaper than settling the lawsuits.
Posted by: AllenG (DedicatedTenther) - Quietly Seething at May 20, 2015 05:02 PM (kff5f)

-------------------------------------------

And, again, disregard political correctness and start profiling the people that are responsible for most of today's terrorist acts.

Posted by: Soona at May 20, 2015 05:07 PM (/HX7u)

194 Posted by: deadrody at May 20, 2015 05:04 PM (meyeF)

Dude. Barrel.

Posted by: AllenG (DedicatedTenther) - Quietly Seething at May 20, 2015 05:07 PM (kff5f)

195 "I cannot recall a single Ted Cruz statement that I haven't agreed with."

If he doesn't win the nomination, he'll probably go on vacation somewhere, and I'll be tempted to follow him and say, "I'm forming a new country, right here, and I want you to be the president. What do you say, Mr. President? Will you lead the Republic of Sandals?"

--

I'm in!

I assume the Republic of Sandals will not allow pants.

Posted by: Y-not at May 20, 2015 05:08 PM (RWGcK)

196 never, never fight back

Hell with that. I'll take some asshole with me

Posted by: wrg500 at May 20, 2015 05:08 PM (S+el1)

197 deadrody that name is rather ironic.

Posted by: River Guide at May 20, 2015 05:08 PM (RJMhd)

198 it's almost like that Luapian nut takes the Constitution seriously.

Posted by: X at May 20, 2015 05:08 PM (n5fTN)

199 All of this is complete utter bullshit.

We never needed the Patrot act all we had to do was share data and intel.

Read the 9/11 Commission report, all of the hijackers were known to the government they just refused to act and let the supposed "wall" be there excuse.

Nidal Hasan was known.

The Tsnaraovs were known.

The underwear bomber was known.

They just refused to do anything about it preferring to harrass US citizens and let everyone else skate and run into and out of this country.

They don't care one wit about our safety all they care about is power and engineering the next pretext to claim more power.

I no longer trust anyone in government.

The scales have been thoroughly ripped from my eyes.

Posted by: Kreplach at May 20, 2015 05:09 PM (o0odn)

200 Department of Homeland Security? Why the heck do we need that????

Why? Fer Safety and Security o' course!

Preventin nukyular attacks and stuff.

Posted by: W at May 20, 2015 05:09 PM (NUCTk)

201 OT: I was at Reagan a week or so ago, and who should appear, and stand near me, but Nina Easton, she of the cantilevered bazooms. She actually looks exactly the way she looks on Fox, i.e., quite pleasing to the eye, in a MILFish sort of way.

Posted by: pep at May 20, 2015 05:09 PM (LAe3v)

202 Church ran for president in 1980, trying to ride his success in gutting intelligence agencies into power. I don't think he even got 1% of the vote in the primaries.

He did have a good slogan though, "go to Church on [insert primary voting day here]"

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at May 20, 2015 05:09 PM (39g3+)

203 202
Church ran for president in 1980, trying to ride his success in gutting
intelligence agencies into power. I don't think he even got 1% of the
vote in the primaries.

He did have a good slogan though, "go to Church on [insert primary voting day here]"

He'd have to change His name now...

Posted by: hello it's Me Donna... again at May 20, 2015 05:10 PM (Bn6aD)

204 They know the rules of jihad, everyone dies unless the terrorist is killed first.

I think you overestimate the willingness of the average man to take one for the team.

Posted by: pep at May 20, 2015 05:10 PM (LAe3v)

205 you have committed a crime.

They're Acts of War and Islamic Religious Policy - the crime is just icing.

Posted by: DaveA at May 20, 2015 05:11 PM (DL2i+)

206
"You can't professionalize unless you federalize"

Posted by: Tom Daschle at May 20, 2015 05:11 PM (NUCTk)

207
Sorry, not willing to give away my freedoms for you illusion of safety.

Revoke the Patriot Act
Break-up Homeland Security
Decimate the NSA

Heads, spikes, wall.

Posted by: Laurie David's Cervix at May 20, 2015 05:11 PM (kdS6q)

208 He'd have to change His name now...

Posted by: hello it's Me Donna... again at May 20, 2015 05:10 PM (Bn6aD)

I would send money to any candidate who changed their last name to "Mosque" and then ran for President.

Because that would be F-in hilarious.

Posted by: AllenG (DedicatedTenther) - Quietly Seething at May 20, 2015 05:11 PM (kff5f)

209 when ground beef (or as my Jersey co-worker calls it, "chop meat"), is fcuking $4.69 a pound!

If you have a fresh market, they do a 2.99 on Tuesdays deal.

Posted by: Lea at May 20, 2015 05:11 PM (lIU4e)

210 I almost ran over what's her nuts in Key West, the Amish chick from Top Gun.

Posted by: River Guide at May 20, 2015 05:12 PM (RJMhd)

211 Chelsea Clinton got a book deal

I wonder who she'll get to ghost write the book and how much of the six-figure advance she got will pay them.

Hard not to be bitter as an author watching no talent pieces of trash get huge book deals just because of their name and connections.

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at May 20, 2015 05:12 PM (39g3+)

212 Fedex vs. The U.S. Postal Service. You make the call.

Posted by: Boss Moss at May 20, 2015 05:12 PM (nDPoN)

213
We need the DHS so that illiterate schmucks and hacks can earn a living wage - and never be fired.

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at May 20, 2015 05:12 PM (St6BJ)

214 Just the very nature of terrorism means you can't really do much in way of law enforcement until after the act has occurred.

Almost all of these people may be on some "watch list" but so what? You can't arrest them for "maybe they'll do something terrible?" That gets into thought crimes. So we have a new police state of surveillance for really no reason.

The best way to crack down on Islamic terrorism would be to close our open borders.

Posted by: McAdams at May 20, 2015 05:13 PM (RHh6e)

215 Let's face it, people.DC does not want to monitor muzzies. It's conservatives like us they want to track.

Posted by: Soona at May 20, 2015 05:13 PM (/HX7u)

216 "I assume the Republic of Sandals will not allow pants."

I'm figuring it'll be more of a social taboo than a legal proscription. I'm willing to defer to President Cruz on this one.

Posted by: FireHorse at May 20, 2015 05:13 PM (VMA3H)

217 210 I almost ran over what's her nuts in Key West, the Amish chick from Top Gun.
Posted by: River Guide at May 20, 2015 05:12 PM (RJMhd)

LOL.

Dobie McGillis?

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at May 20, 2015 05:13 PM (St6BJ)

218 I think you overestimate the willingness of the average man to take one for the team.

I missed the original comment- but on airplanes, that willingness has gone way WAY up.

Since it's not "Well, if I try I might die, and if I sit quietly I might get an unexpected vacation to Bermuda," but rather, "Well, if I try, I might die, but if I don't, me and everyone on this plane becomes part of a guided missile."

Posted by: AllenG (DedicatedTenther) - Quietly Seething at May 20, 2015 05:13 PM (kff5f)

219 If you don't have anything to hide then you might be a redneck.

Posted by: Jed Foxwirth at May 20, 2015 05:13 PM (W5DcG)

220 210
I almost ran over what's her nuts in Key West, the Amish chick from Top Gun.

Kelly McGillis. Used to be hot, but did not age well.

Posted by: pep at May 20, 2015 05:13 PM (LAe3v)

221 As a member of the lowest common denominator I say dump the whole program. Don't give these bastards 1 inch of rope to hang you.

Posted by: skip at May 20, 2015 05:13 PM (uo286)

222
>>>Nina Easton, she of the cantilevered bazooms.

pic?
asking for a friend

Posted by: Joe Biden at May 20, 2015 05:14 PM (W6iIX)

223 214 The best way to crack down on Islamic terrorism would be to close our open borders.

Posted by: McAdams at May 20, 2015 05:13 PM (RHh6e)

AND . . . kill a few hundred thousand of these bastards in Pakistan, Afghanistan and wherever else.

And keep doing it until the cancer is quelled sufficiently.

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at May 20, 2015 05:15 PM (St6BJ)

224 OT, but Cruz' handling of the gay marriage question (see RightScoop in the sidebar) is pretty darn adept. And I say that concerning an issue I don't really get exercised about, gay marriage, since he answers it in a "power reserved to the states" sort of way. Thank the lord somebody is willing to come right out and say, "this issue is one of the many issues in which the federal government has no business getting involved."

It's just none of Washington's damn business. I imagine that, left alone, there will be some states that permit gay marriage and some that don't (and will have to find some limited way to recognize marriage rights for domestic law purposes granted in another state, even if the state doesn't itself permit gay marriage).

Posted by: MTF at May 20, 2015 05:15 PM (LISuA)

225 Almost all of these people may be on some "watch list" but so what? You can't arrest them for "maybe they'll do something terrible?" That gets into thought crimes.

Nearly all of them are on expired Visas and not here legally, or are here on visas which can be revoked for any reason the government desires. That's your leverage. Wow, that guy has horrible terrorist ties, is taking pictures of shopping malls, and bought 9000 firecrackers. Maybe we should do something...

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at May 20, 2015 05:15 PM (39g3+)

226 >>I'm figuring it'll be more of a social taboo than a legal proscription.

Naturally! "Pants-optional -- for FREEDOM!"

Posted by: Y-not at May 20, 2015 05:15 PM (RWGcK)

227 Aldi has 85 15 beef for $4 a pound. So far they have sent out a spend $40 save $10 coupon each month. That makes it $3 a pound. I also scour the Kroger for mark downs. Half off.

Posted by: Boss Moss at May 20, 2015 05:15 PM (nDPoN)

228 So in the end, all it ends up being is a method of collecting data on ordinary normal Americans.

You're assuming that wasn't the point all along.

I no longer assume otherwise.

Posted by: Brother Cavil, down with Eph 6:12 at May 20, 2015 05:15 PM (DT3rQ)

229 Kelly McGillis. Used to be hot, but did not age well.

Yeah the years have not been kind to her looks, but she used to really be a show stopper.

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at May 20, 2015 05:16 PM (39g3+)

230 OT, but Cruz' handling of the gay marriage question (see RightScoop in the sidebar) is pretty darn adept. And I say that concerning an issue I don't really get exercised about, gay marriage, since he answers it in a "power reserved to the states" sort of way. Thank the lord somebody is willing to come right out and say, "this issue is one of the many issues in which the federal government has no business getting involved."
---

Perry also just answered on SSM that way.

You're right. It is the right way to answer that question.

Posted by: Y-not at May 20, 2015 05:16 PM (RWGcK)

231
Only ever see Nina Easton from the neck up. Is she a good looking MILF with torpedo tits?

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at May 20, 2015 05:16 PM (St6BJ)

232 Ya! Kelley McGillis- I might have killed too many brain cells in Key West. Ha !

Posted by: River Guide at May 20, 2015 05:16 PM (RJMhd)

233 Nina Easton is indeed pleasing to the eye.

Posted by: MTF at May 20, 2015 05:17 PM (LISuA)

234 Old Frank Church (Idaho) had a bit of blood on his hands over CIA Station Chiefs in the Mediterranean Region. Naturally, we felt compelled to honor him by naming Wilderness Areas for him because he was a Democrat.

Posted by: Jinx the Cat at May 20, 2015 05:17 PM (l3vZN)

235 I think Perry should move - to Colorado or someplace vaguely attainable - so we can have a Perry/Cruz ticket.

Posted by: Y-not at May 20, 2015 05:17 PM (RWGcK)

236 I think you overestimate the willingness of the average man to take one for the team.
Posted by: pep at May 20, 2015 05:10 PM (LAe3v)

You are postulating that that man would prefer to let everyone die, including himself, rather than act himself? I don't see it.

Posted by: maddogg at May 20, 2015 05:17 PM (xWW96)

237 230 Perry also just answered on SSM that way.

You're right. It is the right way to answer that question.
Posted by: Y-not at May 20, 2015 05:16 PM (RWGcK

Cruz really does lay down the template for handling the MFM gotcha questions. Just turn it around on them and make them face their hypocrisy out loud and proud. Then just walk away.

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at May 20, 2015 05:17 PM (St6BJ)

238 I think you overestimate the willingness of the average man to take one for the team.

Posted by: pep

When the passengers found out the "other" plane on 9/11 had been crashed into the WTC, they rushed the terrorist. Remember "let's roll"?

That many people on the same page in a life and death situation will usually find courage.

Before, hijackers had demands and most people didn't really understand a suicide mission like that. Now they do

Posted by: McAdams at May 20, 2015 05:17 PM (RHh6e)

239 "The indiscriminate collection of data," Rand Paul is against. But the data that is collected is defined in SOME way; it is discriminated in SOME way from data that is NOT collected.
So I think he's overstating. Which could cost him.

Posted by: m at May 20, 2015 05:18 PM (WIUGG)

240 "Kelly McGillis. Used to be hot, but did not age well."

Went full blown lezbot too.

Posted by: Ricardo Kill at May 20, 2015 05:18 PM (LA7Cm)

241 I see Nina Easton and all I can think of is Sheena Easton.

Yum.

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at May 20, 2015 05:18 PM (39g3+)

242 Dude, a lady called up the FBI about suspicious people taking airliner flying training. NOTHING WAS DONE.

Dude, the Hassain military killer was repeatedly psych profiled as a crazy killer. NOTHING WAS DONE.

Dude, Russia told us the Tsarnevs were up to something. NOTHING WAS DONE.

Dude, that the Texas Mohammed drawing killers tweeted that they where going to attack. NOTHING WAS DONE.

Dude, the Feds knew 10 DAYS before 9/11 Bengahzi was going to be attacked. NOTHING WAS DONE.

Dude, the Feds knew for weeks that the gyrocopter guy was going to fly to the capital. NOTHING WAS DONE.

In each of these cases the government had access to explicit information to forstall impending attacks, none of which involved illegally collecting and sifting through American citizen phone records.

Posted by: Ken at May 20, 2015 05:18 PM (LXJ1e)

243 OT, but Cruz' handling of the gay marriage question (see RightScoop in the sidebar) is pretty darn adept.

I'd agree, except that he's got to learn to keep the obvious contempt and irritation to a minimum as he walks away from the "reporter". He'd have hit a grand slam if he went with the intellectual "I don't understand your obsession with sex" gambit, followed by a laughing, yet wistfully regretful shake of the head.

Posted by: pep at May 20, 2015 05:18 PM (LAe3v)

244 Kelly McGillis. Used to be hot, but did not age well.

And joined the other team.

Posted by: tu3031 at May 20, 2015 05:19 PM (YFFpo)

245 240 Went full blown lezbot too.
Posted by: Ricardo Kill at May 20, 2015 05:18 PM (LA7Cm)

Zits around the mouth. Eww.

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at May 20, 2015 05:19 PM (St6BJ)

246 Nearly all of them are on expired Visas and not here legally, or are here on visas which can be revoked for any reason the government desires.

-----------------

They moved quickly enough when they wanted to jail the Mohammed video guy, name escapes me, sent a whole posse of police officers to get him.

Posted by: flmomof4 at May 20, 2015 05:19 PM (nSjrf)

247 vintage Sheena Easton singing a Prince song

https://youtu.be/E7P-Tf53Wtw

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at May 20, 2015 05:19 PM (39g3+)

248 @236

If provided sufficient time and warning, a 9/11 style attack is virtually impossible today.

Passengers will act, of this I have no doubt.

Posted by: Kreplach at May 20, 2015 05:19 PM (o0odn)

249 243 I'd agree, except that he's got to learn to keep the obvious contempt and irritation to a minimum as he walks away from the "reporter". He'd have hit a grand slam if he went with the intellectual "I don't understand your obsession with sex" gambit, followed by a laughing, yet wistfully regretful shake of the head.
Posted by: pep at May 20, 2015 05:18 PM (LAe3v)

Nah. He's merely articulating the rage we all feel about these fucking traitorous pigs.

Go Cruz!

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at May 20, 2015 05:20 PM (St6BJ)

250 Nearly all of them are on expired Visas and not here
legally, or are here on visas which can be revoked for any reason the
government desires. That's your leverage. Wow, that guy has
horrible terrorist ties, is taking pictures of shopping malls, and
bought 9000 firecrackers. Maybe we should do something...

Posted by: Christopher Taylor

But they aren't doing it since you have to already be a convicted felon to get bumped to the top of the deportation list

They'll get a lawyer, claim asylum, and probably get a few more years to blow something up

Posted by: McAdams at May 20, 2015 05:20 PM (RHh6e)

251 231

Only ever see Nina Easton from the neck up. Is she a good looking MILF with torpedo tits?

Posted by: J.J. Sefton

I've noted it before at this very website. When she sits in the Fox chair, she sort of balances on the table due to the overhang.

Posted by: pep at May 20, 2015 05:20 PM (LAe3v)

252 I wish Juan Williams hair would catch on fire.

Posted by: Bertram Cabot Jr. at May 20, 2015 05:20 PM (W5DcG)

253 I'd agree, except that he's got to learn to keep the obvious contempt and irritation to a minimum

Its fine for the primaries, he's targeting people who have the same contempt and irritation for the press. In the general, yeah better to be more amused and folksy. Not that it matters.

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at May 20, 2015 05:21 PM (39g3+)

254 Patriot Act now, Patriot Act tomorrow, Patriot Act FO-EVAH!!

How else can we direct the IRS to the right, ahem, groups?

Posted by: DoJ Spokestool at May 20, 2015 05:21 PM (sCHw2)

255
I wish Juan Williams hair would catch on fire.

What did he do now?

Posted by: hello it's Me Donna... again at May 20, 2015 05:21 PM (Bn6aD)

256 Posted by: Y-not at May 20, 2015 05:16 PM (RWGcK)
======================

SCOTUS should answer it the same way: the Constitution doesn't mention marriage and it does say explicitly that if it isn't in the document as assigned to the Feds, it belongs at the state level. These judges are derelict in their duties, always grabbing power for themselves, and--by the way-- what's wrong with trusting the states to do what they are supposed to do?

Posted by: MTF at May 20, 2015 05:21 PM (LISuA)

257 (and will have to find some limited way to recognize marriage rights for domestic law purposes granted in another state, even if the state doesn't itself permit gay marriage).
Posted by: MTF at May 20, 2015 05:15 PM (LISuA)

---------------------------------------

Or not! That should also be up to the states. If your gay and want to be married and recognized as married, then move to the states that will do that for you. Otherwise, leave us the fuck alone.

Posted by: Soona at May 20, 2015 05:21 PM (/HX7u)

258 242 Posted by: Ken at May 20, 2015 05:18 PM (LXJ1e)

Lots of Dudes but what can we expect from a government that had the technology in place to prevent last week's derailment but did not activate it?

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at May 20, 2015 05:21 PM (St6BJ)

259 In each of these cases the government had access to
explicit information to forstall impending attacks, none of which
involved illegally collecting and sifting through American citizen phone
records.

Posted by: Ken at May 20, 2015 05:18 PM (LXJ1e)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Again, exactly. And yet, somehow we expect the ineffectual bureaucracies of government that are unwilling to use specific, credible information to prevent attacks to, instead, sift through 500 billion tons of data to mine for a trend or some other vague clue that they will then use to prevent an attack.ROTFLMAO at our idiocy

Posted by: deadrody at May 20, 2015 05:21 PM (meyeF)

260 From a May 18th appearance (in Iowa, I think):

Perry "I'm a traditional marriage guy personally." But it needs to be left to the states. The Supreme Court should respect that.

Posted by: Y-not at May 20, 2015 05:22 PM (RWGcK)

261 Elmo is much sharper than Juan Williams.

Posted by: Boss Moss at May 20, 2015 05:22 PM (nDPoN)

262 251 I've noted it before at this very website. When she sits in the Fox chair, she sort of balances on the table due to the overhang.
Posted by: pep at May 20, 2015 05:20 PM (LAe3v)

I just came in my mouth a little . . .

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at May 20, 2015 05:22 PM (St6BJ)

263 SCOTUS should answer it the same way: the Constitution doesn't mention marriage and it does say explicitly that if it isn't in the document as assigned to the Feds, it belongs at the state level.

The problem is the 14th amendment. It destroyed the 10th and should have never been written the way it is. That single amendment did more damage than anything in American history and we're just now beginning to see it.

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at May 20, 2015 05:23 PM (39g3+)

264 Terrorism is a statistical hiccup if all one cares about is personal exposure to risk. Government is a daily threat, or at least every couple of weeks when paychecks are printed.

Even ignoring that, does anyone believe this government, knowing a nuclear bomb had come over the border with some ISIS dreamers would show the same interest Lerner did in oppressing anyone connected to the TEA party she could find?

Or would they wait and see, and use the event as a teachable moment for how much we all *need* them?

Posted by: Methos at May 20, 2015 05:23 PM (ZbV+0)

265 You are postulating that that man would prefer to let everyone die, including himself, rather than act himself? I don't see it.

Posted by: maddogg

I think the average man now is so emasculated that he'll sit in his seat, hoping a real man will save him. I could be wrong, but I doubt it.

Posted by: pep at May 20, 2015 05:23 PM (LAe3v)

266 Or not! That should also be up to the states. If your gay and want to be married and recognized as married, then move to the states that will do that for you. Otherwise, leave us the fuck alone.
---

^This.

Posted by: Y-not at May 20, 2015 05:23 PM (RWGcK)

267 261 Elmo is much sharper than Juan Williams.
Posted by: Boss Moss at May 20, 2015 05:22 PM (nDPoN)

Krauthammer and Hume do a pretty decent job of "Jane-you-ignorant-slut" - ing him whenever he opens his cake hole.

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at May 20, 2015 05:23 PM (St6BJ)

268 I don't often sneak over the Southern US border but when I do I wear a sombrero and never talk on the phone or Inet.

Posted by: Da most interesting Jihadi in the World at May 20, 2015 05:24 PM (cCxiu)

269 I agree, Ace. I fully support Rand Paul's efforts to stop this POS from getting re-authorized.

However, I think this is more a show than anything else.

The House goes on Vacation tomorrow. The Senate will pass their version, but the House will be gone. And they will be gone and the Patriot Act will lapse.

Boehner has not indicated he will even consider voting on the Senate version He did his job and they are going home.

Posted by: Chi-Town Jerry at May 20, 2015 05:24 PM (so+oy)

270 Vintage Susanna Hoffs singing a Prince song.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SsmVgoXDq2w

Is this a thing?

Posted by: A dot at May 20, 2015 05:24 PM (vgIRn)

271 Anybody else watching Rand, live?

Posted by: m at May 20, 2015 05:25 PM (WIUGG)

272 I think the average man now is so emasculated that he'll sit in his seat, hoping a real man will save him. I could be wrong, but I doubt it.

Maybe. I guess we'll see some day, although I hope not. I suspect that whatever men have been reduced to, at least some will man up when they have to, knowing that they're all dead either way.

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at May 20, 2015 05:25 PM (39g3+)

273 263 That single amendment did more damage than anything in American history and we're just now beginning to see it.
Posted by: Christopher Taylor at May 20, 2015 05:23 PM (39g3+)

It's not the amendment and it certainly isn't the entire Constitution. It's the shameful way presidents and justices "interpret" it as if they were reading the Kabbala or the Talmud so they can say it means what it clearly does not and then go from there.

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at May 20, 2015 05:25 PM (St6BJ)

274 Nina Easton? Yeah, I'd hit it.

And Sugar Walls was great, but what has she done lately?

Posted by: BackwardsBoy, who did not vote for this sh1t at May 20, 2015 05:25 PM (0HooB)

275
The fact that 13+ years after 9-11 the southern boarder is still not fenced is all you need to know...

Serious, the Israeliis know how to make a fence, we should learn from what they have learned

Posted by: Yo! at May 20, 2015 05:26 PM (W6iIX)

276 274 And Sugar Walls was great, but what has she done lately?
Posted by: BackwardsBoy, who did not vote for this sh1t at May 20, 2015 05:25 PM (0HooB)

Rupert Murdoch's shriveled pecker for $200, Alex.

Oh, that's not right. I denounce myself.

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at May 20, 2015 05:26 PM (St6BJ)

277 The problem is the 14th amendment. It destroyed the 10th and should have never been written the way it is. That single amendment did more damage than anything in American history and we're just now beginning to see it.

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at May 20, 2015 05:23 PM (39g3+)
========================

agree, except to say it's always been a heavily contested (ie, lots of folks would say damaging) amendment. It surely needs to be made far more specific.

Posted by: MTF at May 20, 2015 05:27 PM (LISuA)

278 Hoffs is teh cutez.

Also watching the Parliament of Whores. WIUGG

Posted by: Boss Moss at May 20, 2015 05:27 PM (nDPoN)

279 None of this is as dangerous to National Security as Climate change.... obama told us that today...

Posted by: hello it's Me Donna... again at May 20, 2015 05:27 PM (Bn6aD)

280 Unfortunately, the "let the states decide" is not going to be what happens with gay marriage.

I will always oppose gay marriage on personal cultural and moral grounds, but I don't think the conservative movement should go after repealing gay marriage like they did Roe vs Wade.

We're going to need an answer after the SC decides on this.

Posted by: McAdams at May 20, 2015 05:28 PM (RHh6e)

281 What agency did the Russians alert about Tsaraaev? They did nothing because he was quiet. He should have been investigated, had travel, mosque & phone records looked at.

I don't believe they did any of that.

Paul is on now.
He's doing this for show & to try to make us believe he's not best friends with Mitch.

Posted by: Carol at May 20, 2015 05:28 PM (sj3Ax)

282 277 agree, except to say it's always been a heavily contested (ie, lots of folks would say damaging) amendment. It surely needs to be made far more specific.
Posted by: MTF at May 20, 2015 05:27 PM (LISuA)

Two words: "Commerce Clause"

Oops, that and "Promote the general welfare" which is not even in the damn bill but part of the friggin' preamble.

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at May 20, 2015 05:28 PM (St6BJ)

283 First,
I say strip the CIA of all powers for internal intelligence, and then make sure that people that are a threat to the security of the country are not **internal**. That is, throw them out.

There will be home grown loons like the OK city psychos, but that is not new, and is (should) be up to the FBI under different rules. Maybe if we treated people in America as Americans, with all the freedoms that is supposed to entail. we will start to understand that it only works if we have secure borders and are selective in who we let in.

Second,
the problem with targeted surveillance is that, for example, you only collect data on people that have visited terrorist countries, or who contact terrorist supporting states regularly, and their first contacts. Well, the problem is that this includes most reporters and half the white house and they will have none of it.

It was the same problem with the commies in the 50's and 60's. The real threat was the reporters and elites that were only "sympathizers," (useful idiots,) but look how that unfolded.

Posted by: Gentlemen, this is democracy manifest at May 20, 2015 05:29 PM (LWu6U)

284 how long will it take the USA freedom act to become collect all the data be we wants it precious? I don't trust these assholes and I don't trust in their ability to connect the dots before hand even if they have all the dots.

Posted by: Vote Lord Humungus at May 20, 2015 05:29 PM (V0KhB)

285 Suzanna Hoffs. Pint sized hotness. She's still really, really gorgeous. I have impure thoughts about her.

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at May 20, 2015 05:29 PM (39g3+)

286 281 He's doing this for show & to try to make us believe he's not best friends with Mitch.

Posted by: Carol at May 20, 2015 05:28 PM (sj3Ax)

Good point. He endorsed the Truculent Turtle.

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at May 20, 2015 05:29 PM (St6BJ)

287 obama told us that today...

Posted by: hello it's Me Donna... again at May 20, 2015 05:27 PM (Bn6aD)
======================

he was just making that up. because that's what he does.

Posted by: MTF at May 20, 2015 05:29 PM (LISuA)

288 "I cannot recall a single Ted Cruz statement that I haven't agreed with."

Major new expansion of H-1B visas.

As though there hasn't been enough expansion of that program already, under al-Buraq!

Posted by: torquewrench at May 20, 2015 05:30 PM (noWW6)

289 They are using this mostly to go after drugs.

Posted by: Boss Moss at May 20, 2015 05:31 PM (nDPoN)

290 "I say strip the CIA of all powers for internal intelligence,"

That was done by the Church Commission in the '70's.
The democrats screamed about the CIA spying on us citizens who were in the streets protesting the Vietnam war.

Posted by: Gerry Sitwell at May 20, 2015 05:31 PM (UUGLL)

291 288 Posted by: torquewrench at May 20, 2015 05:30 PM (noWW6)

As I always say, no candidate is going to be perfect. I like Cruz a lot but his absence on the Lynch vote and the treaty sell-out were inexcusable.

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at May 20, 2015 05:31 PM (St6BJ)

292 Drudge sure seems to have a thing for O'Malley...

Posted by: hello it's Me Donna... again at May 20, 2015 05:31 PM (Bn6aD)

293 I'm so sick of the TSA, I'm willing to risk the chance of terrorists. So I say make a deal - You can keep spying on my phone calls if you repeal the Homeland Security Act.

(Then, four years from now, I'll say, "and also, repeal the patriot act!

)

Posted by: Kevin at May 20, 2015 05:31 PM (CsVqi)

294 290 "I say strip the CIA of all powers for internal intelligence,"

That was done by the Church Commission in the '70's.
The democrats screamed about the CIA spying on us citizens who were in the streets protesting the Vietnam war.
Posted by: Gerry Sitwell at May 20, 2015 05:31 PM (UUGLL)

I seem to recall the Church Committee defanging the CIA where it was needed most, human intel overseas.

It is a necessary evil. But the way in which it is politicized and micro-mismanaged like LBJ and McNamara did in Vietnam is the problem.

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at May 20, 2015 05:33 PM (St6BJ)

295 "They are using this mostly to go after drugs."

The fake War on Drugs?

Posted by: Ricardo Kill at May 20, 2015 05:33 PM (LA7Cm)

296 The random stuff in 80s music videos.

Posted by: Boss Moss at May 20, 2015 05:33 PM (nDPoN)

297 Cruz/Paul 2016

Posted by: Sambo at May 20, 2015 05:34 PM (9UV3C)

298 293 (Then, four years from now, I'll say, "and also, repeal the patriot act! )

Posted by: Kevin at May 20, 2015 05:31 PM (CsVqi)

And then the EPA, IRS, DoE, the other DoE, the ICC, the FCC, OSHA . .

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at May 20, 2015 05:34 PM (St6BJ)

299 Forget TSA. Allow each passenger to carry a loaded 6 shot revolver on their person. Think the leftards would go for that?
Yeah, I do think it would work.

Posted by: maddogg at May 20, 2015 05:34 PM (xWW96)

300 Drudge sure seems to have a thing for O'Malley...

It's the shirtless pics.

No, really, remember that Drudge made his name on Clinton scandals. He'd love to push any competitors for Hellary.

Posted by: Pappy O'Daniel at May 20, 2015 05:34 PM (oVJmc)

301 297 Cruz/Paul 2016
Posted by: Sambo at May 20, 2015 05:34 PM (9UV3C)

Definitely NOT Paul. No way, hose B.

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at May 20, 2015 05:34 PM (St6BJ)

302 Re: Ace's point about the phone metadata collection. The way I would handle it would be to collect the data but hash the numbers. Require that the encryption key used for the hashing be kept outside the NSA. If a suspicious pattern is developed (ie a terrorist is identified, his phone number captured and can be linked back to other numbers) a court order can be obtained and the metadata decrypted using the key held outside the NSA and suspects identified. This still allows for a non suspect person to be protected from random NSA snooping but the data is available for network analysis etc. if needed,

Posted by: chad at May 20, 2015 05:35 PM (gic3/)

303 NASA should partner with the IRS to send the IRS to Mars.

Posted by: Boss Moss at May 20, 2015 05:35 PM (nDPoN)

304 They know who the bad guys are and where they are. They're muzzies in mosques.

Any law, rule or regulation that doesn't address that fundamental truth is bullshit. Any pol who doesn't address it needs his or her ass kicked out of orifice.

I'm surprised we haven't been hit yet by some terrorist walking across the Mexican border.

Posted by: BackwardsBoy, who did not vote for this sh1t at May 20, 2015 05:36 PM (0HooB)

305 If it gets rid of the useless, expensive, minority jobs program known as the TSA and I get to take a pocket knife on airplanes....I'M FOR IT!!!

Posted by: Jukin, Former Republican at May 20, 2015 05:36 PM (TV9BR)

306 None of this is as dangerous to National Security as Climate change.... obama told us that today...
Posted by: hello it's Me Donna... again at May 20, 2015 05:27 PM (Bn6aD)

And Juan was on TV agreeing with that while downplaying ISIS.

Posted by: Bertram Cabot Jr. at May 20, 2015 05:37 PM (W5DcG)

307 If TELCOs keep the data, Govt. WILL abuse it. Legal or not ... They will.

Shitcan the data. It's more power than Govt. can be entrusted with. And Govt. IS NOT interested in stopping Muslim Terrorists at any rate ... and that shit will not change regardless of which party is in charge.

Posted by: ScoggDog at May 20, 2015 05:37 PM (1XuuE)

308 ++Or not! That should also be up to the states. If your gay and want to be married and recognized as married, then move to the states that will do that for you. Otherwise, leave us the fuck alone.++

Sigh.

Posted by: The Ghost of the Confederacy at May 20, 2015 05:37 PM (XrHO0)

309 Re: Ace's point about the phone metadata collection. The way I would handle it would be to collect the data but hash the numbers. Require that the encryption key used for the hashing be kept outside the NSA. If a suspicious pattern is developed (ie a terrorist is identified, his phone number captured and can be linked back to other numbers) a court order can be obtained and the metadata decrypted using the key held outside the NSA and suspects identified. This still allows for a non suspect person to be protected from random NSA snooping but the data is available for network analysis etc. if needed,
Posted by: chad at May 20, 2015 05:35 PM (gic3/)

-----------------------------------

So who would control the encryption key? And who would overwatch them?

Posted by: Soona at May 20, 2015 05:38 PM (/HX7u)

310
What did he do now? (Juan Williams)

Posted by: Donna

He affirmed the liberal position that the video caused the Benghazi attack because the video was not just centered on Libya but the entire rag-head world. Yes Donna, he's an asshole!

Posted by: Doctor Fish at May 20, 2015 05:39 PM (P330y)

311 Is phone metadata really valuable going forward?

I would think that with everything switching to VOIP even cell phone data could be easily cleansed.

To me, the metata data collection is obsolete, or soon will be.

Posted by: Gentlemen, this is democracy manifest at May 20, 2015 05:39 PM (LWu6U)

312 So who would control the encryption key?

Sidney Blumenthal.

Posted by: Pappy O'Daniel at May 20, 2015 05:39 PM (oVJmc)

313 a 9/11 style attack

Their central focus is Teh Caliphate now. Big attacks here might interrupt TheObamaFailStrategy.

Posted by: DaveA at May 20, 2015 05:39 PM (DL2i+)

314 SOOOOO, the same government that funds terrorist protests in American cities is to be trusted with everything we do?

NO!

Posted by: Jukin, Former Republican at May 20, 2015 05:39 PM (TV9BR)

315 "I'm the biggest privacy advocate in the [illegible]."
--Rand Paul, a minute ago
In the world? In the room?
That was a sloppy statement.

Posted by: m at May 20, 2015 05:39 PM (WIUGG)

316 "Sigh."

Uh-oh.

Posted by: Ricardo Kill at May 20, 2015 05:39 PM (LA7Cm)

317 307 - telcos are going to keep the data no matter what. No organization ever really destroys data.

Posted by: chad at May 20, 2015 05:39 PM (gic3/)

318 - telcos are going to keep the data no matter what. No organization ever really destroys data.

Unless you're Hillary!

Posted by: hello it's Me Donna... again at May 20, 2015 05:40 PM (Bn6aD)

319 "I seem to recall the Church Committee defanging the CIA where it was needed most, human intel overseas. "

I think it was a two pronged neutering. Prohibited spying on US citizens overseas, and prohibited CIA 'activities' inside the territory of the US.

If the anti war protesters really were being manipulated by foreign governments, these two demands of the democrats would effectively end any possible discover of foreign influence in US internal politics.

Knowing what we now know of the modern democrat party, we understand what the real purpose of the Church Commission was.

Posted by: Gerry Sitwell at May 20, 2015 05:40 PM (UUGLL)

320 309 The racist @ssholes in DC.

Posted by: Boss Moss at May 20, 2015 05:40 PM (nDPoN)

321 Just went to the RightScoop link in the sidebar about Cruz being asked questions about his "animosity toward gay americans." Hard not to like that guy.

Posted by: Sambo at May 20, 2015 05:40 PM (9UV3C)

322 321 Gays are always taking it in the @ss.

Posted by: Boss Moss at May 20, 2015 05:42 PM (nDPoN)

323 The encryption key - One part with the clerk of the FISA court one part with the someone in the administration who has authority over Counter terrorism.

Posted by: chad at May 20, 2015 05:42 PM (gic3/)

324 The answer is simple: pols need to treat muzzies the same way they treat conservatives. They're all, each and every one, guilty of something.

Punish them all. Stop all muzzie immigration and focus on the mosques with 24/7 video surveillance and listening devices.

If they don't like it, deport them.

We have the right to live in peace. No cult should be able to broach it.

Posted by: BackwardsBoy, who did not vote for this sh1t at May 20, 2015 05:42 PM (0HooB)

325
what good is meta-data after an attack
the attack already happened

Posted by: Yo! at May 20, 2015 05:43 PM (W6iIX)

326 Re the H1-B thing.

Do people realize H1-B visas are for "specialty occupations?"

From Wiki:

"The regulations define a "specialty occupation" as requiring theoretical and practical application of a body of highly specialized knowledge in a field of human endeavor including but not limited to biotechnology, chemistry, architecture, engineering, mathematics, physical sciences, social sciences, medicine and health, education, law, accounting, business specialties, theology, and the arts, and requiring the attainment of a bachelor's degree or its equivalent as a minimum..."

Expanding the H1-B program is not necessarily something I oppose. It's not the program that is killing the most economically vulnerable groups of working Americans.

There are technical advances, including at startups, that are being slowed down because American students are not pursuing the sciences and engineering. If a company needs to hire someone from overseas who has the skill set to advance their innovation, I'm all for that.

Posted by: Y-not at May 20, 2015 05:43 PM (RWGcK)

327 Definitely NOT Paul. No way, hose B.

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at May 20, 2015 05:34 PM (St6BJ)

There are a couple others I would take. I'm sure one of them would be acceptable to you. Jindahl, Walker, others....my mind isn't churning out names very well at the moment.

Posted by: Sambo at May 20, 2015 05:44 PM (9UV3C)

328 Are we talking about the GOP voting to take some government power away??
Really??

It is to laugh.
Like upthread already mentioned, nothing will change.
Like I mentioned this morning, that big building out west ain't going to shut down.

What is anyone going to do about it?
The security apparatus of the state will not disassemble itself.

Posted by: OneEyedJack at May 20, 2015 05:44 PM (XmOA9)

329 No way, hose B.

horrible freedom.

Posted by: X at May 20, 2015 05:44 PM (n5fTN)

330 Being a mohomodan is an act of sedition and high treason. They are at war with the world forever.

Posted by: Boss Moss at May 20, 2015 05:44 PM (nDPoN)

331 I didnt say after an attack I said after someone is identified as a terrorist. Say the captured Khalid Sheikh Mohammeds eviler (and hairier) twin sister tomorrow and got her cell phone.

Posted by: chad at May 20, 2015 05:45 PM (gic3/)

332 "Their central focus is Teh Caliphate now. Big attacks here might interrupt TheObamaFailStrategy."

Yep.

As an explanation for jihadis refocusing their terror efforts away from the USA during the Obama years, someone said, well, perhaps they're following the old rule about never interrupting an enemy who is in the process of making a mistake.

But do the jihadis genuinely regard Obama as an enemy? And that he is making mistakes? Hard to see why again exactly they would. The vast majority of Obama's supposed "mistakes" end up working out in their favor. Often dramatically so.

For instance, the repeated cases of the administration lavishly supplying weak anti-jihadi forces with fresh arms, only to have those forces promptly break and run, leaving the weapons and ammunition to the Islamic State brutes.

Posted by: torquewrench at May 20, 2015 05:45 PM (noWW6)

333 I'm surprised we haven't been hit yet by some terrorist walking across the Mexican border.

I get the impression that jihadis aren't as motivated and zealous as they pretend to be and on the whole are pretty dumb. It took them 10 years to blow up the World Trade Center with an attack that could have been done in 1930.

Regarding the Church Commission, it wasn't entirely bad. Intelligence agencies tend to go crazy and overboard unless very closely restrained and headed by people with very strong consciences and a clear enemy. The CIA was never intended to spy in the USA to begin with and was anyway.

But yeah, the Democrats were worried that Soviet money and guidance would be discovered in the anti-war movement and the links to them would be dug up.

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at May 20, 2015 05:45 PM (39g3+)

334 To me, the metata data collection is obsolete, or soon will be.

We're always going to need to know who called who from where to where when.

Posted by: TelcoCallRoutingSystems at May 20, 2015 05:46 PM (DL2i+)

335 Posted by: The Ghost of the Confederacy at May 20, 2015 05:37 PM

"Being denied same sex marriage licenses is totes the same as slavery!"

Posted by: Y-not at May 20, 2015 05:47 PM (RWGcK)

336 Chelsea's new book will be all about how you can be anything you want to be... if your father is President.

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at May 20, 2015 05:47 PM (39g3+)

337 Some of you who support this won't be so down with this when President Castro 's administration uses it to research terms like "conservative", "no amnesty", and "guns", etc.

The problem with the NSA is it not really getting the job done now. They seem to miss everything useful, they have crappy security (like hiring Snowden), and they are morphing into a big inept bureaucracy.

I am am under the opinion that they were more useful pre-911 when they were a small but tight operation. 9-11 happened because the CIA-FBI could not communicate with each other over turf battles, we let lots of Muslims into the country, Clinton and Bush did not take the situation seriously, and our immigration enforcement sucks. It was not because the NSA did not have enough money, people, or info etc.

Posted by: William Eaton at May 20, 2015 05:47 PM (q52Ma)

338
>>>If a company needs to hire someone from overseas who has the skill set to advance their innovation, I'm all for that.

no, the company does not want to pay American wages.

There is a reason that alot of IT shops are filled with people from India, and it is not because they are better programmers......

Posted by: Yo! at May 20, 2015 05:47 PM (W6iIX)

339 We live in a fucking police state ... and the majority of the public likes it.

Muslims don't have to do another thing on US soil. They've already won. Anything more is just running up the score.

Posted by: ScoggDog at May 20, 2015 05:48 PM (1XuuE)

340 Steve Daines (R-Montana) up.

Posted by: m at May 20, 2015 05:48 PM (WIUGG)

341 The encryption key

A mere abacus, mention it not.

Posted by: NSA Bobs BambleWeeney 9000 at May 20, 2015 05:48 PM (DL2i+)

342 On Fox, Feds go after motorcycle gangs, all of them.
http://tinyurl.com/m4t9nf8

Posted by: Gerry Sitwell at May 20, 2015 05:49 PM (UUGLL)

343 As an explanation for jihadis refocusing their terror efforts away from the USA during the Obama years, someone said, well, perhaps they're following the old rule about never interrupting an enemy who is in the process of making a mistake.

There have been multiple attacks on US soil and several foiled ones. Terrorists have hit us again and again, just not one really big high profile one. I suspect that has more to do with how badly the last one went: they got their asses kicked across the planet for like five years straight after 9/11.

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at May 20, 2015 05:49 PM (39g3+)

344 "Do people realize H1-B visas are for 'specialty occupations?'"

Officially, yes.

Unofficially, it's every bit as systemically gamed and cynically abused as is any other one of Uncle Sugar's programs.

Here in the SF Bay Area, we had a horrifying case where an immigrant slumlord was importing underage girls from his home country and forcing them into child prostitution. Beaten half senseless, chained to beds, and "servicing" thirty or forty johns a day.

These unfortunate girls were typically the age of high school sophomores. Yet the ridiculous feds didn't see anything unusual about them being billed as highly qualified, extensively experienced and university-degreed "software engineers" on the H-1B applications that were used to get them into the States.

It's bullshit and it needs to be sharply curtailed, if not shut off entirely.

Posted by: torquewrench at May 20, 2015 05:49 PM (noWW6)

345 >>>If a company needs to hire someone from overseas who has the skill set to advance their innovation, I'm all for that.

no, the company does not want to pay American wages.

---

No offense, stranger, but blow it out your ass.

I have direct experience in science and engineering research. Group leaders would love to be able to hire Americans. THEY AREN'T AVAILABLE. It has nothing to do with salaries. It has to do with finding personnel who have technical skills that are needed now.

Posted by: Y-not at May 20, 2015 05:49 PM (RWGcK)

346 Um, they do not give a shit about intel that kills the commoners. Anything that could affect the personal optics is another matter. If you keep the information overloaded, intel agents would otherwise notice and trade out fungible stuff about our fearless leaders. Distract, evade, avoid capture.

Lots of rogue stuff going on. Maybe have an international governing body. Make the intel guys and gals the bitches.

That is a real cold war. Private Duncan Idaho.

Posted by: first and last at May 20, 2015 05:50 PM (o/3Hk)

347 If a company needs to hire someone from overseas who has the skill set to advance their innovation,

They should raise the pay until an American will do it, or train one, or go fuckthemselves.

Posted by: ObsoleteDave at May 20, 2015 05:50 PM (DL2i+)

348
Just went to the RightScoop link in the sidebar about Cruz being asked questions about his "animosity toward gay americans."

My recommended reply: "I'll answer questions, not indictments."

Posted by: Pappy O'Daniel at May 20, 2015 05:51 PM (oVJmc)

349 Group leaders would love to be able to hire Americans. THEY AREN'T AVAILABLE. It has nothing to do with salaries.

I suspect its a combination. Unions have driven up wages across the board, even in non-union jobs. You can hire Joe Blow from Idaho for 35 an hour plus benefits, or Sanji Chandra for 8 bucks an hour and no benefits, over the phone. Which is better?

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at May 20, 2015 05:51 PM (39g3+)

350 Which is more useful to deterring another 9-11...

(A) Collecting lots of phone and internet data from Americans
(B) Invading Iraq again to nation build.
(C) Turning Pakistan into dust.

I choose "C", but that is just me...

Posted by: William Eaton at May 20, 2015 05:51 PM (q52Ma)

351 There is this three legged stool in business. Wages are one of the legs. Corporations are using immigration to shorten that leg. They are gaming the system. An infinite supply of cheap labor allows them to enslave their employees.

Posted by: Boss Moss at May 20, 2015 05:52 PM (nDPoN)

352 Posted by: TelcoCallRoutingSystems at May 20, 2015 05:46 PM (DL2i+)

for $10 a month you can get a secure vpn that encrypts and routs all your data to off shore servers, where it is decrypted and sent on its way.

Once people stop making calls directly, and start using internet apps for phone, the meta data is gone.

as it is, i would bet that only the really stupid terrorist ever pick up a phone and dial a number directly. This is overkill to catch the stupid ones, they are catchable without giving up our freedoms.

Posted by: Gentlemen, this is democracy manifest at May 20, 2015 05:53 PM (LWu6U)

353 I suspect its a combination. Unions have driven up wages across the board, even in non-union jobs. You can hire Joe Blow from Idaho for 35 an hour plus benefits, or Sanji Chandra for 8 bucks an hour and no benefits, over the phone. Which is better?

Funny how the big boss's multi-bazillion dollar salary never gets mentioned.

That's just hunky-dory.

Posted by: BackwardsBoy, who did not vote for this sh1t at May 20, 2015 05:54 PM (0HooB)

354 @337 Really because I specifically remember people having a shit fit when it came out that the NSA had intercepted communications that between conspirators that weren't translated until after the attacks because of a lack of funding and personnel. Also as I recall they intercepted calls between the hijackers but were unable to do anything with it because they didn't have the authority to determine the numbers called because the were in the US

Posted by: chad at May 20, 2015 05:55 PM (gic3/)

355 I agree its bad for companies to dump American jobs for cheap overseas labor but we kind of did it to ourselves. People want so much money to do a job and demand everything be so cheap... what is a company going to do? Either find a way to cut costs or shut down. Overseas labor is one way to cut costs.

We have to face a future of either cutting our expectations of earnings, face higher costs, or put up with outsourcing jobs. There's no other option.

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at May 20, 2015 05:56 PM (39g3+)

356 I'm an engineer ... and I can tell you they're not available because the hours suck and there's better money in many cases working skilled trades and other fields. I'm looking to get out.

Oh ... sure ... companies are constantly bitching they can't get enough engineering help - and for $75k/yr, with a 60 hour workweek, that will not change.

Posted by: ScoggDog at May 20, 2015 05:57 PM (1XuuE)

357 "Group leaders would love to be able to hire Americans. THEY AREN'T AVAILABLE. It has nothing to do with salaries."

How does this alleged unavailability explain the repeatedly remarked phenomenon of American citizens who are already employed in technology jobs, who are told by their employer that they will be expected to, before being laid off, train their own replacements from overseas who have been brought in under the H-1B program at considerably lower wages?

There are a *ton* of these cases.

Posted by: torquewrench at May 20, 2015 05:57 PM (noWW6)

358 My recommended reply: "I'll answer questions, not indictments."
Posted by: Pappy O'Daniel at May 20, 2015 05:51 PM (oVJmc)

Dude, If you haven't watched the video of his interaction with the reporter, do so. He does what has been recommended here over and over and over again about interacting with the media and turns bad questions back on the reporter, with gravitas. Then he talks about what is important.

Posted by: Sambo at May 20, 2015 05:57 PM (9UV3C)

359 If it causes an erection lasting more than 6 hours I may or may not call my doctor.

Posted by: Sambo at May 20, 2015 05:58 PM (9UV3C)

360 Oh ... sure ... companies are constantly bitching
they can't get enough engineering help - and for $75k/yr, with a 60 hour
workweek, that will not change.

Posted by: ScoggDog at May 20, 2015 05:57 PM (1XuuE)

bingo.

Posted by: Gentlemen, this is democracy manifest at May 20, 2015 05:58 PM (LWu6U)

361 Funny how the big boss's multi-bazillion dollar salary never gets mentioned.

I think paying a CEO gigantic sums of money unless he demonstrates a massive increase in profits and quality for the business is idiotic.

But the truth is, in a business big enough to hire the top end CEOs with those massive salaries... his pay is a pretty small drop in the bucket. If you cut his pay to 1 dollar a year, it would distribute to like a 10 cent raise for the workers. Nice but not exactly changing the playing field at all.

And think about it. Businesses aren't around to give people jobs or address social inequities. The guy that owns MegaCorp goes to work for the same reason you do: to get paid. He's in it to make money. I can hardly begrudge him for doing so.

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at May 20, 2015 05:58 PM (39g3+)

362 for $10 a month you can get a secure vpn

The phone has to be id'd at the connection somehow.

I doubt all the backend switching, routing and billing software has fundamentally changed from ESS# just been wrappered and adapted.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/
Electronic_switching_system

Posted by: ObsoleteDave at May 20, 2015 05:59 PM (DL2i+)

363 The phone has to be id'd at the connection somehow.

Well yeah. Nobody can call you unless the system knows who you are. There's never going to be a phone system that doesn't record numbers and transactions.

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at May 20, 2015 06:00 PM (39g3+)

364 nood
Chelsea
eww

Posted by: m at May 20, 2015 06:01 PM (WIUGG)

365 nood

Posted by: Vinne from Local #4591 at May 20, 2015 06:01 PM (W6iIX)

366 The NSA metadata has never taken down a terrorist without FBI operatives encouraging, informing and entrapping them.

Peak government has no incentive whatever to serve the public interest and is totally incompetent in every endeavor.

Posted by: DNF at May 20, 2015 06:02 PM (D0vIG)

367 It's not the data collection that I'm against. It's that it has all been warrantless. If the NSA wants to info-gather on a couple of ten million people, then they had better get going on the paperwork. Get the warrants, guys, and my objections go away.

Posted by: LCMS Rulz! at May 20, 2015 06:02 PM (PEgKF)

368 @357

I too would like to hear about what occupations are unable to be filled by indigenous workers.

I have a BS in computer science minor in math and have worked in large scale systems integration that involved heavily customized GUIs and backend databases and we have never had to use offshore labor or H1b's.

There are hundreds of schools cranking out thousands of computer scientists it's total bullshit that the talent pool doesn't exist.

Posted by: Kreplach at May 20, 2015 06:03 PM (o0odn)

369 "There have been multiple attacks on US soil and several foiled ones."

Yes, but they've all been small-timer stuff, without the considerably sized effort and extensive support from outside that characterized the 9/11 attacks.

The jihadis are expending an extremely strong push right now, but it's not directed our way. What's been occurring here is largely just uncoordinated independent actions by minor sympathizers. (Example: the Tsarnaevs.)

Posted by: torquewrench at May 20, 2015 06:04 PM (noWW6)

370 well if they took marissa mayers salary and split it among all 12500 yahoo employees it works out to about $1.00 / hr. if you are the $10/hr janitor that is a pretty big deal. If you are the $50 / hr engineer maybe not so much. but still it's $2000 per employee.

Posted by: chad at May 20, 2015 06:04 PM (gic3/)

371 Long story short ... be it H1B visas, immigration, whatever ... The political elites of Both Parties are creating a Servant Class. That's us.

When they are done, your college degree will not save you. Your standard of living is going down too.

Posted by: ScoggDog at May 20, 2015 06:06 PM (1XuuE)

372 @368 there aren't any. Something like 50% of STEM graduates don't work in stem fields because there either aren't jobs or compensation has been driven way down. http :// articles.economictimes.indiatimes. com/2015-05-07/news/61902411_1_other-workers-study-new-h-1bs

(remove the spaces)

Posted by: chad at May 20, 2015 06:09 PM (gic3/)

373 Hal Salzman - there are only enough STEM jobs for 50% of the annual graduates. H1-B workers cost $30000 less than American workers

http: //www.breitbart. com/big-government/2015/05/15/venture-capitalist-h1-b-avocate-americans-dont-work-hard-enough/

Posted by: chad at May 20, 2015 06:14 PM (gic3/)

374 "19
It's about trust. Do you trust Government, knowing what you do, with
these powers? If so, yes makes sense. If not, no is the only answer.

I've paid attention to what's happened since 9/11.

I know what my answer is.

Posted by: Brother Cavil, down with Eph 6:12 at May 20, 2015 04:32 PM (DT3rQ)"

Not only do I not trust the government, after November 7, 2012 I stopped trusting the American people and a, probably childish, feeling that no matter what else, we were all Americans and part of the same "tribe" died for me.

At this point, I am willing to let the Patriot Act expire even if it means that Islamic fanatics will nuke an American city. It probably won't be a city with anybody I know in it and it will probably be full of Democrats.

Obama and his people are completely untrustworthy. That means that they should not be trusted with any extraordinary power like the Patriot act and it means that their power should be curtailed in every way possible even if there is a significant cost to it. There is a cost to reelecting a completely untrustworthy President even after you have learned that he is completely untrustworthy.

Posted by: Obnoxious A-Hole at May 20, 2015 06:56 PM (KDbAT)

375 Totes the same as slavery

Nice strawman

Conflate much?

Posted by: The Ghost of the Confederacy at May 20, 2015 07:01 PM (N2PoX)

376 "No offense, stranger, but blow it out your ass.

I have direct experience in science and engineering research. Group
leaders would love to be able to hire Americans. THEY AREN'T AVAILABLE.
It has nothing to do with salaries. It has to do with finding personnel
who have technical skills that are needed now.

Posted by: Y-not at May 20, 2015 05:49 PM (RWGcK)"

I have experience in science and engineering. I am available. That is why I am typing on this blog in the middle of the day. If you want a different skill set from mine, I can introduce you to several dozen other Americans with technical skills who are available right now.

Somehow our two experiences seem to suggest different realities.

Posted by: Obnoxious A-Hole at May 20, 2015 07:11 PM (KDbAT)

377 ...James Sensenbrenner, says that he never imagined Section 215 could possibly have this meaning. And a federal court has ruled this executive "interpretation" as an unconstitutional aggrandizement of executive power.

Well damn, who didn't see that coming? Oh yeah, right, every idiot, left and right, I argued with that said the government would never do such a thing. Rubes.

Posted by: dogfish at May 20, 2015 07:52 PM (jWtyG)

378 Support for the Patriot Act is an ostrich's folly. It will be used against its citizenry not for its citizenry. Don't believe me? Look at the way the Constitution is treated. When the concept that rights are inherently bestowed upon man by God is replaced by only those allowed by government, you can't seriously defend the Patriot Act as being in the best interest of the American citizen. It is impossible.

Posted by: dogfish at May 20, 2015 08:08 PM (jWtyG)

379 You can argue that "it's for my own protection", but you can't argue that it is for my protection AND not violating my God given rights. I didn't ASK you for protection at the expense of my rights. And even if everyone but me asks for that, you still violate MY God given rights; therefore it is not a correct approach to the problem.

Posted by: dogfish at May 20, 2015 08:14 PM (jWtyG)

380 I think Tom Cotton just shit the bed, courtesy of Breitbart.

Posted by: Ben Had at May 20, 2015 08:18 PM (7nDbK)

381
I have direct experience in science and engineering research. Group

leaders would love to be able to hire Americans. THEY AREN'T AVAILABLE.

It has nothing to do with salaries. It has to do with finding personnel

who have technical skills that are needed now.

Posted by: Y-not at May 20, 2015 05:49 PM (RWGcK)"

Bullshit.

I have direct experience with H1b program.

You claim to be opposed to slavery?

Dig a little deeper.

Posted by: Tom Daschle at May 20, 2015 08:39 PM (NUCTk)

382 / filthy sock off

Posted by: some random meathead at May 20, 2015 08:40 PM (NUCTk)

383 Q: How stupid do you have to be to fall for a grandstanding stunt like this? It is NOT a filibuster - the bill isn't up for consideration yet, and recent Senate procedure is it must clear the cloture test vote before it will. So this is nothing, a show for the gullible and stupid followers of the nutbar Paul and the traitor Wyden.

A: Never mind.

Posted by: Adjoran at May 20, 2015 09:07 PM (QIQ6j)

384 I still refuse to believe that some pinhead at NSA watching my daughter secretly through her webcam helps to keep our country safe.

Posted by: Dirk Winebarger at May 20, 2015 10:09 PM (iCjV+)

385 hello test

Th#233;re #192;re s#244;me sp#235;cial char#226;cters #239;n th#236;s t#234;xt

Posted by: OregonMuse at May 21, 2015 12:29 AM (KjA4V)

386 hello test

Thére Àre sôme spëcial charâcters ïn thìs têxt

Posted by: OregonMuse at May 21, 2015 12:31 AM (KjA4V)

387 So the NSA couldn't possibly be used as a political weapon, like the IRS?

Of course it could.

Posted by: Jason M at May 21, 2015 05:48 AM (Eb4tB)

388 The December 1968 issue of, "Playboy," featured an article by Supreme Court Justice, William O Douglas, concerning threats to the Fourth Amendment. Also, there were dirty pictures.

Posted by: Marooned Maroon at May 21, 2015 10:51 AM (hTHAs)

389 these acronym acts work the same way the word social works when put in front of another word, as a negative.

Posted by: X at June 10, 2015 05:10 PM (xGNLA)

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