Last Days In Vietnam And Open Thread

Dave posted on Thursday about the 40th anniversary of the fall of Saigon.

The documentary I mentioned in the post, Last Days in Vietnam, is on PBS tonight, with a 9pm Eastern re-start.

As I told Dave, this is the best documentary I've ever seen on any subject, period. It's simply outstanding.

If you're at all interested in this topic, give it a watch. If not, the comment thread is open.

I should add: Thanks to all of you who served in Vietnam. The politicians made this a shit show, and you took the blame. Fuck that.

Posted by: Andy at 08:32 PM

Comments

(Jump to bottom of comments)

1 Does it clearly identify and damn the Democrat traitors who voted for the enslavement of millions and the murder of over 100 thousand South Vietnamese? Or is it typical PBS leftist bullshit talking about "difficult times" when they should be saying the words "Pogrom" and "Death Camps"?

Posted by: Inspector Cussword at May 02, 2015 08:35 PM (vTqLG)

2 Wonder if I could raise money via GoFundMe for a movie called Legacy of Betrayal: How the Democrats Lost Vietnam.

Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at May 02, 2015 08:36 PM (+rW/N)

3 I took part in the evacuation, left as Tan Son Nhut airbase came under heavy fire. Dunno if I'll watch or not.

Posted by: Bildo at May 02, 2015 08:36 PM (aIXyd)

4 Dropped this at the bottom of the Derby thread: NYPD officer shot in the head in ambush, in critical condition in the hospital. All over Twitter now.

Posted by: joncelli at May 02, 2015 08:36 PM (ENczY)

5 It's neutral. Which is what you want in a documentary.

Posted by: Andy at May 02, 2015 08:37 PM (0ZQCB)

6 Hundreds of Iraqi Yazidi s slaughtered by Isis. No helicopters this time

Posted by: Thunder B, Shapeshifter at May 02, 2015 08:38 PM (mNfoE)

7 Upcoming anniversaries -

May 8th, 1942 - Battle of the Coral Sea.

May 13th, 1975 - S.S. Mayaguez Incident.

Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at May 02, 2015 08:38 PM (+rW/N)

8 Bildo, God bless you.

It shows Tan Son Nhut being shelled and the embassy moving to "option four" for getting folks out.

Awful

Posted by: Andy at May 02, 2015 08:39 PM (0ZQCB)

9 At least 300 murdered today

Can we call it an Islamic crusade yet

Posted by: Thunder B, Shapeshifter at May 02, 2015 08:40 PM (mNfoE)

10 The guy in the tower was yelling that we didn't have permission to take off and our pilot was yelling back "Fuck you Jack, we're gone."

Posted by: Bildo at May 02, 2015 08:41 PM (aIXyd)

11 God bless you Bildo

Posted by: Thunder B, Shapeshifter at May 02, 2015 08:41 PM (mNfoE)

12

I'll pass, thank you.

Believe we'll let that sleeping dog lie.

Posted by: irongrampa at May 02, 2015 08:41 PM (jeCnD)

13 Anyone subscribing to the boxing match who can post blow-by-blow because I ain't payin'.

Posted by: too cheap to pay at May 02, 2015 08:41 PM (3MNCs)

14 Posted by: Inspector Cussword at May 02, 2015 08:35 PM (vTqLG)

Yeah, I was thinking the same thing.

Those of you who didn't live it don't realize how much bullshit was/has been written about it that's wrong because they don't want to admit that the Democrats/liberals screwed up and threw away not only the country but the men and women who bled during that conflict.

The can NEVER admit that they were wrong and so every thing you see put out by a liberal venue is most likely lies. Some mixture of lies and truth with some bs spread around to cover over the holes in the story.

So just because it looks fair and covers all the high points (or low points) to you, doesn't mean it is for those who participated in it and witnessed it up front and personal.

No offense meant. You can't understand the anger involved due to the distance in time and how you were educated and where you were raised and the attitudes were different for quite a few years in response to the evil things done to the innocent then.

Posted by: Bitter Clinger and All That at May 02, 2015 08:49 PM (zRby/)

15 My local PBS station is showing, I shit you not, the Lawrence Welk Show. It must be pledge week. They always show Lawrence Welk in pledge week. I'll find it elsewhere.

Thank you Bildo.

Posted by: stace at May 02, 2015 08:51 PM (CoX6k)

16 13 Anyone subscribing to the boxing match who can post blow-by-blow because I ain't payin'.

Posted by: too cheap to pay at May 02, 2015 08:41 PM (3MNCs)

sure No problem

Posted by: zombie Howard Cosell at May 02, 2015 08:52 PM (XYKz+)

17 My PBS station doesn't have it. That sucks.

Posted by: Ronster at May 02, 2015 08:52 PM (4NtAn)

18 Upcoming anniversaries -

May 8th, 1942 - Battle of the Coral Sea.

May 13th, 1975 - S.S. Mayaguez Incident.

-
June 4, 1942 - Battle of Midway

Posted by: The Great White Snark at May 02, 2015 08:53 PM (hPU3O)

19 Thank you to all the Vietnam vets who sacrificed so much. You are not forgotten.

Posted by: Thunder B, Shapeshifter at May 02, 2015 08:54 PM (mNfoE)

20 Bitter Clinger and All That at May 02, 2015 08:49 PM

I respectfully disagree. Vietnam was before my time but not Iraq and Afghanistan.

I told my wife when I came back from the Persian Excursion we would be back there in a year or two. Now, my oldest boy (who was 3 months old at the time), my daughter and my youngest boy's best friend are caught up in this bullshit 'war or terror'.

I hate the Washington establishment in general and the are crate in particular for wasting blood and sacrifice every bit as much as you who fought (and died) in Vietnam.

Posted by: CrotchetyOldJarhead at May 02, 2015 08:57 PM (hJ+K2)

21 If you're in the DC area, on May 8 there will be a flyover of WWII aircraft:

http://ww2flyover.org/

Posted by: Vendette at May 02, 2015 08:58 PM (TEpA2)

22 ...I hate the Washington establishment in general and the DEMOCRATS in particular...

Actually, it's every politician who found a way to exempt the self or thier progeny from service. Then, now, and in the future.

Posted by: CrotchetyOldJarhead at May 02, 2015 09:00 PM (hJ+K2)

23 21
If you're in the DC area, on May 8 there will be a flyover of WWII aircraft:

http://ww2flyover.org/

Posted by: Vendette at May 02, 2015 08:58 PM (TEpA2)

DC is the new Dresden? Opps, did I say that?!

Posted by: A dude in MI at May 02, 2015 09:02 PM (Dth0i)

24 Posted by: CrotchetyOldJarhead at May 02, 2015 08:57 PM (hJ+K2)

*Looks around*

You're younger than I thought.

Posted by: Vendette at May 02, 2015 09:02 PM (TEpA2)

25 I have two local PBS stations. One is having the everlasting PBS telethon and the other is showing "That's Entertainment."

Posted by: Donna &&&&&& V. (brandishing ampersands) at May 02, 2015 09:03 PM (+XMAD)

26 it's narrated by a Kennedy, how could it, their granduncles, Jack and Bobby committed us to that battlefield, stumbled into it, as Moyar points out, and Ted worked all out against it,.

Posted by: admiral marcus at May 02, 2015 09:04 PM (0u/CC)

27 I love all you Vets for your service but I have to say I have a special respect for Vietnam Vets.

I have decided that those who served there are the greatest cohort of any generation.

They served in spite of the society which condemned them.

Posted by: typo dynamofo at May 02, 2015 09:05 PM (i7JE3)

28 22
Actually, it's every politician who found a way to exempt the self or thier progeny from service. Then, now, and in the future.

Posted by: CrotchetyOldJarhead at May 02, 2015 09:00 PM (hJ+K2)

They also find a way to exempt their progeny from the horrors of public schools as well. No Common Core, MichelleMeals, or gang fights at Sidwell Friends!

Posted by: rickl at May 02, 2015 09:06 PM (sdi6R)

29 "Thanks to all of you who served in Vietnam."

Ditto.

"The politicians made this a shit show, and you took the blame. Fuck that."

Amen.

Posted by: FireHorse at May 02, 2015 09:06 PM (8cWgt)

30 Posted by: CrotchetyOldJarhead at May 02, 2015 08:57 PM (hJ+K2)

What exactly are you disagreeing with me about?

Your statement leaves me confused other than you disagree with something I said and you were in Irag and Afghanistan.

I was referring to the statement made by andy that he thought the documentary shown by PBS was the best documentary he'd seen. It took this to mean it was fair and showed the truth which stated was unlikely due to the nature of PBS (a liberal hive of scum and villainy) and the nature of most of the tales told over the years by the historians about Vietnam and it's causes, results and responsibilities.

Please. Tell me where and what in there do you disagree with me and why.

Posted by: Bitter Clinger and All That at May 02, 2015 09:10 PM (zRby/)

31 >> it's narrated by a Kennedy

No. It was made by a Kennedy - Rory, who's Bobby's daughter that was born after he died.

Which is what makes in all the more remarkable. Great piece of filmmaking with no lefty bias.

Posted by: Andy at May 02, 2015 09:10 PM (0ZQCB)

32 And thank you to all those who served in Desert Storm... and all who served in Iraq and Afghanistan...

Because just like Viet Nam... Politicians made them all a shit show...

Just like Iran seizing an allied Merchant ship in supposedly a supposedly protected channel.... shit show...

gee.... notice a trend????

Posted by: BB Wolf at May 02, 2015 09:11 PM (qh617)

33 I rarely saw my father cry. I remember watching cbs news during the fall. My father cried so much that writing this is making me cry. He did three tours in Vietnam. He also did over two years during the Korean conflict. Vietnam was the war he shed tears on. Not because we gave another victory away but because of the better men then him who died.

He despised the press and the liberals that despised the average American who fought in the war. He considered what we call progressives today as liberals. He respected a liberal like JFK and Scoop Jackson. As he died of cancer a few months ago he said something that I would never believe he would say. He was a man who lived by " God, Country and Family". In that order. Yet as he was dying he said " the best I men I knew died in a foreign country when our true enemy ran the Democratic and Republican party's". He didn't despise Obama he despised the press and establishment who protects him. The truly sad part is how right he was at the end. God bless those who have served our country yet were betrayed by its leaders.

Posted by: I4cu2 at May 02, 2015 09:11 PM (J7K5T)

34 Upcoming anniversary:

May 5, 1961 - Alan Shepard made the first U.S. suborbital flight in a Mercury spacecraft.

Here is the entire flight on YouTube:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3xd9kg-fJ9g

***

On May 6, 2015, SpaceX is planning a test of their launch abort system, which is a crucial test for the next generation of manned spacecraft.

Here is yesterday's press conference about it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FbfEUwfRalc

Posted by: rickl at May 02, 2015 09:12 PM (sdi6R)

35 Great White I was limiting myself to events in May. Guess should mention VE Day also.

Interesting aircraft line-up. I would skip the flyby and hang out where the planes are located.

Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at May 02, 2015 09:13 PM (+rW/N)

36 My cousin's name is on the wall - he was a Marine who died in the Tet Offensive. He was a football star in high school, a huge, soft-spoken guy, and my only memory of him is of him giving me a ride on his shoulders (I was around 7 at the time). I remember being a little scared when I looked down, because the ground seemed very far away.

And I also remember his funeral, because my aunt did not stop sobbing for one second. She had just lost her husband to a heart attack a year earlier.

10 years later, her second son committed suicide.

Posted by: Donna &&&&&& V. (brandishing ampersands) at May 02, 2015 09:13 PM (+XMAD)

37 >> Please. Tell me where and what in there do you disagree with me and why.

Watch the documentary and let's talk.

Posted by: Andy at May 02, 2015 09:15 PM (0ZQCB)

38 Vietnam, and McGovern, turned my Dad from Dem to GOP.

Posted by: Y-not on the phone at May 02, 2015 09:17 PM (9BRsg)

39 God bless the Viet Nam vets.

Posted by: seamrog at May 02, 2015 09:17 PM (NsF6F)

40 I served during the Vietnam war, but only stateside. I respect and honor those that went to that shithole to fight in my stead.

Posted by: Ronster at May 02, 2015 09:17 PM (4NtAn)

41

I'm out.

Stay safe, my brothers.

Posted by: irongrampa at May 02, 2015 09:18 PM (jeCnD)

42 29 "Thanks to all of you who served in Vietnam."

Ditto.

"The politicians made this a shit show, and you took the blame. Fuck that."

Amen.
Posted by: FireHorse at May 02, 2015 09:06 PM (8cWgt)

I third that. Thanks to all of you. And don't forget - the pols never would have gotten away with making it a shit show if the media hadn't decided we had to lose.

Posted by: Donna &&&&&& V. (brandishing ampersands) at May 02, 2015 09:18 PM (+XMAD)

43 3
I took part in the evacuation, left as Tan Son Nhut airbase came under heavy fire. Dunno if I'll watch or not.

Posted by: Bildo at May 02, 2015 08:36 PM (aIXyd)
====I was out on the water, shepherding terrified Vietnameses and helping push helicopters over the side, fishing people out of the south China Sea when they didn't make the flight deck. It was called "Operation Frequent Wind," which kind of implies a level of planning and organization than it looked like to us. That was my last year on active duty; went reserve the next year. Don't know that I'll watch it either.

Posted by: Don't Forget to Duck! at May 02, 2015 09:18 PM (ev1Yh)

44 I guess for full disclosure I should mention that my dad served in the USN in the early part of the war.

Posted by: Andy at May 02, 2015 09:19 PM (0ZQCB)

45 Like Korea a war we won, but would not finish.

Disgusting. I vomit thinking of my friends who died for this disgrace.

Get your Nike shoes made in Veitnam!

Go LBJ Go TO HELL!

Posted by: Nip Sip at May 02, 2015 09:20 PM (0FSuD)

46 It's on at midnight on WTTW. But my husband is watching on-line right now, via PBS, via The American Experience.

And thank you to Bildo and all the others who served. My uncle went, and 8mm movies were taken of him leaving at the airport, smiling and waving. He did come back. But the film freaked me out, because I, who was an infant when he left, had never, ever, seen that man smile. He was a strange and unhappy man the rest of his life. RIP, Uncle Nicky.

Posted by: Gem at May 02, 2015 09:20 PM (c+gwp)

47 I'm a cord cutter so I'll wait to catch it online somewhere.

Posted by: Bildo at May 02, 2015 09:22 PM (aIXyd)

48 ... Don't know that I'll watch it either.
Posted by: Don't Forget to Duck! at May 02, 2015 09:18 PM (ev1Yh)

It does you justice.

Posted by: Andy at May 02, 2015 09:22 PM (0ZQCB)

49 Gack! Ten years ago I wrote this... eeekkk!!!!

http://annapuna.blogspot.com/2005/11/breaking-milk-bottles.html

Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at May 02, 2015 09:23 PM (+rW/N)

50 43
Welcome Home!

Posted by: Bildo at May 02, 2015 09:24 PM (aIXyd)

51 I used to work with an older Vietnamese gentleman whose last position before The Fall was as a member of the South Vietnamese House of Representatives. Before that (68 -71) he was a Chief of Police of one of the Districts in Saigon. He could have left the country by April of 75...but decided to stay. He said it was a matter of honor. Whelp...he got 12 years in a North Vietnamese re-education camp for his troubles. I felt quite humbled listening to his stories...mostly humorous...but in that gallows humor kind of way. He was happy to have finally made it to the US...in 1995 or so...and didn't have much ill will towards America. He was never truly able to reunite with all his children...some of whom were teenagers when they escaped by boat. He used to say..."Even the trees...if they could pick up their roots...would leave Vietnam." I went over to visit the country in q998...and never met a person who wasn't happy to meet an American. I was quite surprised...given how we left.

My old boss was a combat Marine in I Corps in 70-71. He told mostly funny stories too...but i guess he felt close enough to share some of the bad ones too. I still keep in touch and always remember to thank him for his service. (He left part of his right hand over there.)

In 95...I was priveleged to sponsor the family of a South Vietnamese Captain (SV Special Forces). They are Montagnards and doubly disliked by other Vietnamese and especially the Communists because they fought so hard for SV and the US...
He brought over 9 of his 10 children....he also spent seven years in a North Vietnamese re-education camp. Never spoke of his experiences in the camp. Never. Used to talk a lot about the war in general when he'd had a few...but never about that.
Well...his kids are all doing very well and are nothing but grateful to the United States for all the opportunities they have been given. They resettled here in Oklahoma City with about 12,000 other Vietnamese.

My 2 cents...there is plenty of blame for what went wrong on all sides...but sorry to say...yeah...mostly the Dems own what happened. When they hounded Nixon out in 74 for Watergate...the North Vietnamese celebrated bc they knew they could begin their take-over and America wasn't going to lift a finger.

Anywho...thanks for letting me share in this forum...and a most heartfelt thank you to all who served over there.

Posted by: King Ding Dong at May 02, 2015 09:26 PM (EMrMF)

52 Ronster @ 40: "I served during the Vietnam war, but only stateside."

You say "only" like it mattered less. As a lifelong civilian, I respect and honor all of you who served, whether you saw war or not.

Thank you, and God bless.

Posted by: FireHorse at May 02, 2015 09:28 PM (8cWgt)

53 Santorum expresses support for Bruce Jenner

http://tinyurl.com/mcjljsl

Posted by: The Political Hat at May 02, 2015 09:29 PM (7YlUk)

54 The Curious Case Of Freddie Gray's Transport Van Companion - Baltimore Prosecutor, Marilyn Mosby, Manipulating The Media...

http://tinyurl.com/nkoraqc

Posted by: The Political Hat at May 02, 2015 09:30 PM (7YlUk)

55
Marilyn Mosby just bought herself some trouble over Freddie Gray

http://tinyurl.com/njfz67m

Posted by: The Political Hat at May 02, 2015 09:30 PM (7YlUk)

56 It looks like more trouble for Disney after their recent decision to fire their American IT staff.

(AP) Los Angeles - 02 May, 2015

Disney is facing a new round of legal troubles after Customs officials in the Port of Los Angeles seized the Disney Cruise Lines ship Mickey Triumphant. Officials, speaking anonymously, reported that they were tipped off that the ship was involved in human trafficking from South and Central America into the US.

Customs agents and Coast Guard personnel boarded the ship in a predawn raid that roused the sleepy crew. In the bowels of the ship agents discovered a hidden compartment behind the bulkhead of a crew break area. The compartment, approximately the size of a shipping container, held eight Guatemalan men in Micky Mouse costumes, three Indian network engineers, and a French-Algerian man described as having "increadible register skills".

In addition, agents also discovered 15 kilograms of cocaine and twenty under-aged Honduran prostitutes in a second compartment. Current evidence suggest that they were bound for brothels and massage parlors across southern California, however officials suspect that in fact they were to be supplied to a rumored network of underground "Micky Mouse Clubs" in L.A., San Diego, and Las Vegas.

Posted by: Colorado Alex at May 02, 2015 09:32 PM (10ydV)

57 You can also watch it here on youtube (in HD, with Vietnamese subtitles):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qvnHy3FJ384

Posted by: rc at May 02, 2015 09:33 PM (J4ZHs)

58 Reading the Onion again Colorado Alex?

Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at May 02, 2015 09:34 PM (+rW/N)

59 >> Gack! Ten years ago I wrote this... eeekkk!!!!

Outstanding

Posted by: Andy at May 02, 2015 09:35 PM (0ZQCB)

60 Upcoming anniversaries -

May 8th, 1942 - Battle of the Coral Sea.

May 13th, 1975 - S.S. Mayaguez Incident.

-

June 4, 1942 - Battle of Midway

August 19, 1995 - My Wedding

Believe me, if I forget it, it'll be a bigger battle than any of those other ones.

Posted by: The GOPe at May 02, 2015 09:35 PM (oVJmc)

61 At a yard sale today, a guy thanked my father for his service in Vietnam. I was proud for him, and he's finally getting his due 40 years later.

Posted by: jmel at May 02, 2015 09:36 PM (1Ss7/)

62 In a few more years PBS will wax nostalgic and there will be 'last days in Afghanistan'.

Posted by: Gladius Day at May 02, 2015 09:37 PM (Hgz78)

63 instead of watching the documentary, I'll poke some nice sharp bamboo under my fingernails while listening to Alanis Morissette

or not....

sixty thousand lives; it's like watching those Civil War programs on PBS

Posted by: north of Vung Tau at May 02, 2015 09:37 PM (8CdUx)

64 Let me add my thanks to those who served in Vietnam. As I've said before I went through a period of time where I read a lot of books written by men who had been POW's in Hanoi. Most of them were pilots and crews who had been on bombing raids. In a lot of their books they talk about how that war was fought. They get pretty specific about how our political leaders, particularly LBJ, fought that war in order to lose. They felt that if we'd seriously effectively bombed we could have brought North Vietnam to its knees and won.

I know that we despise McCain for the political jerk that he is, but in one of his books he describes how, when he got back he had a conversation with his father. It was pretty heartbreaking. He basically told his father that he should have resigned his commission in protest. A lot of these military people felt betrayed, and they were betrayed, just as the South Vietnamese were betrayed.

Posted by: nerdygirl at May 02, 2015 09:38 PM (5Qo1j)

65 Anna Puma (+SmuD) at May 02, 2015 09:23 PM (+rW/N)

If I had Y-chromosome plumbing I would p*ss on LBJ's grave after a six-pack of beer. My father - WWI and WWII veteran - hated the man.

Posted by: GrandmaMimi at May 02, 2015 09:40 PM (u5LFV)

66 If I had Y-chromosome plumbing I would p*ss on LBJ's grave after a six-pack of beer. My father - WWI and WWII veteran - hated the man.

Posted by: GrandmaMimi at May 02, 2015 09:40 PM (u5LFV)

Here you go, I'm not using mine anymore...

Posted by: Bruce Jenner at May 02, 2015 09:41 PM (7YlUk)

67 Cut the cable to put msnbc out of business years ago so when it makes it to streaming I'll check it out.

Posted by: People Corp at May 02, 2015 09:42 PM (TzeLs)

68 Thanks Andy. LBJ was playing for a tie while the Communists were playing to win.

Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at May 02, 2015 09:43 PM (+rW/N)

69 >> Thanks Andy. LBJ was playing for a tie while the Communists were playing to win.

Yep. Great point made in the doc that once Nixon resigned, Saigon was toast.

Posted by: Andy at May 02, 2015 09:44 PM (0ZQCB)

70 >> Cut the cable to put msnbc out of business years ago so when it makes it to streaming I'll check it out.

It's on Amazon - that's where I first saw it.

Posted by: Andy at May 02, 2015 09:45 PM (0ZQCB)

71 I missed the part in Santorum's book It Takes A Family where it says, "except if you're famous and tell people you're a Republican voter".

Must have been in a footnote.

Posted by: boulder terlit hobo at May 02, 2015 09:46 PM (AVEe1)

72 Yep. Great point made in the doc that once Nixon resigned, Saigon was toast.

That was the whole point of Watergate. A democrat setup.

Posted by: GrandmaMimi at May 02, 2015 09:48 PM (u5LFV)

73 The USS Pueblo was taken by the Norks during my time in the army. That was scary. They got away without punishment.

Posted by: Ronster at May 02, 2015 09:48 PM (4NtAn)

74
It's on Amazon - that's where I first saw it.
Posted by: Andy at May 02, 2015 09:45 PM (0ZQCB)
---
cool I have that, its in the queue

Posted by: People Corp at May 02, 2015 09:49 PM (TzeLs)

75 I wouldn't call Watergate a democrat setup so much as a self-inflicted injury by Nixon.

Posted by: boulder terlit hobo at May 02, 2015 09:49 PM (AVEe1)

76 Bitter Clinger.... I just disagree with your assertion that others cant understand the anger involved. My disdain and contempt for politicians and the media, and for people who desecrate the flag is every bit as visceral as yours.

Posted by: CrotchetyOldJarhead on a new tablet at May 02, 2015 09:51 PM (60Vyp)

77
HELP!

I have no elbow pasta but a couple of those Kraft cheese packets. You think if I sprinkle the on regular spaghetti it wont taste repulsive? TIA

Posted by: Bruce J. at May 02, 2015 09:53 PM (iQIUe)

78 75 I wouldn't call Watergate a democrat setup so much as a self-inflicted injury by Nixon.
Posted by: boulder terlit hobo at May 02, 2015 09:49 PM (AVEe1)

Yep. Remember, Nixon won in '72 by a landslide. There was absolutely no reason for Watergate.

Posted by: Donna &&&&&& V. (brandishing ampersands) at May 02, 2015 09:57 PM (+XMAD)

79 Has anyone done an Alt-History where Nixon doesn't resign?

Posted by: Colorado Alex at May 02, 2015 10:00 PM (10ydV)

80
Nixon won in '72 by a landslide. There was absolutely no reason for Watergate.
Posted by: Donna V.

You mean I had George Wallace shot for NOTHING?

*facepalm*

Posted by: Richard Nixon

Posted by: Laurie David's Cervix at May 02, 2015 10:00 PM (kdS6q)

81 "53 Santorum expresses support for Bruce Jenner"

What a shitbag he is.

Posted by: Cloyd Freud, Unemployed at May 02, 2015 10:01 PM (8W5zZ)

82 Posted by: Bruce J. at May 02, 2015 09:53 PM (iQIUe)

I don't see why it would be repulsive, if you're not replused by Kraft cheese packets.

It might a good idea to break the strands into smaller pieces before you cook them.

Posted by: Donna &&&&&& V. (brandishing ampersands) at May 02, 2015 10:01 PM (+XMAD)

83 Nood

Posted by: The Microaggressor at May 02, 2015 10:01 PM (EQLe+)

84 the difference was the Democrat's CREEP, full of fmr?? intelligence was called Intertel, they contracted with the NFL and GM, when they didn't do political surveillance 'I'm shocked
gambling is going on here' was so much garbage.

Watergate was a pretext, some might say, in the short run, it was a coup attempt by Felt, using the Post as false flag, the idiot 'blew himself up' putting his Bureau in danger,

I didn't have immediate relatives in Vietnam, although I did have a cousin or two, another was abandoned on the beach,
during McNamara's first try, called the BoP, he killed himself
nearly 30 years later, another late friend, as TDYed there, out of a Japanese air base, before the major incursion in '65, the experience jaundiced the rest of his life,

Posted by: admiral marcus at May 02, 2015 10:03 PM (0u/CC)

85 CrotchetyOdJarhead: "My disdain and contempt for politicians and the media, and for people who desecrate the flag is every bit as visceral as yours."

I'll address these one at a time.

1) Politicians. Robert McNamara was the worst. The things he said before he died were unconscionable.

2) Media. I learned the doctrine in J-school. I've since unlearned it all. Members of the media are not public servants, despite their efforts to convince you otherwise.

3) Flag burners. People in this country who burn the American flag are desperate to get me angry. I find that curious, then pitiful, then I stop thinking about it.

Posted by: FireHorse at May 02, 2015 10:05 PM (r+LOT)

86 I was just reading, as it happens, the fourth volume of Jerry Pournelle's "There Will Be War" collection(s) of essays and short-stories. This one is very much under the shadow of the Cold War.

At one point he yields the floor to John Brunner. Brunner's essay, "A Way out Maybe... or A Dead End For Sure", is a supercilious pile of nuclear-disarmament crap. Besides the lies, and the sneering attitude, he makes sure to inform the Yanks that the reason so many Brits sympathised with the North Vietnamese during the American bombing raids was because of the Blitz.

Because, to Brunner, the Americans are just like the Nazis.

(Oh, forgot - another of Brunner's fun little points is that a lot of the East European nations under the Warsaw Pact had been allies of Hitler, or occupied by Hitler. So, you know, the Polacks, Magyars and Czechs kinda deserved to have Russian tanks roll over 'em.)

There might be arguments for or against various decisions made during the Cold War. But I do find that the people of the Left at the time, making THEIR arguments against it, were disgusting.

* Pournelle not only trashes Brunner's whole argument, but follows it up with Alexander Shatravka, "a letter from the soviet union" - actually a letter from a Soviet gulag. That was what the Cold War was about. And that was what the Vietnam War was about, too.

Posted by: boulder terlit hobo at May 02, 2015 10:05 PM (AVEe1)

87
Has anyone done an Alt-History where Nixon doesn't resign?
Posted by: Colorado Alex

Yes, although it's more of a doesn't get caught in the first place scenario, if I recall.

The Last President: A Novel of an Alternative America
by Michael Kurland, S. W. Barton

An there's an excerpted copy on google books if you want to take a looksie:
http://tinyurl.com/p7cb7mq

Posted by: Laurie David's Cervix at May 02, 2015 10:06 PM (kdS6q)

88 Two nood

Posted by: Y-not on the phone at May 02, 2015 10:07 PM (9BRsg)

89 I have an older brother who served at Subic Bay in '68-'69, never got all the way in, and to this day he won't allow himself to be called a Vietnam Vet. He always corrects it to 'Vietnam-ERA' veteran. I have always loved that about him. No valor thief there. I just read the book 'Ride the Thunder' by Richard Botkin, and in combination with the 'Last Days in Vietnam' documentary, it makes me want to ring Jane Fonda's doorbell and punch her in the mouth. With my elbow.

Posted by: DJJD at May 02, 2015 10:10 PM (yhjJ1)

90 yes, I was about to mention that one, Woodstein are 'gotten out of the way' not as dramatically as in Watchmen,

Posted by: admiral marcus at May 02, 2015 10:14 PM (0u/CC)

91 52 I figured I would be drafted after college graduation in June 1973. Draft number was 56, sure to go. But Nixon ended the draft in Jan 73, so I never went.

But someone else, without my college deferment, went in my place. God Bless that brave soul.

Posted by: Smilin' Jack at May 02, 2015 10:29 PM (+wRFR)

92 Two of my uncles served. My mom's lit brother and my dad's little brother. One in Germany the other in the hot seat. My uncle that served in Vietnam was exposed to serious chemical warfare and had major health problems a few years down the road. He died almost two years ago at the age of 64.

Posted by: small town girl, crusader at May 02, 2015 10:37 PM (8oSoU)

93 Sorry, late to this so haven't read the comments, just wondering if anyone has read "Triumph Forsaken". History of the war, I believe part of a trilogy being done by one historian.

Not sure, but I think he calls himself a "revisionist" - though probably ironically, and think about that for a second.

Revisionists engaged in the intellectual and moral idiocy of trying to portray the efforts of the US and its allies against the incredible evil of the Axis, then the Soviet bloc, as somehow morally tainted or complicated.

Things have gone so far down the tubes that now, a historian who will look at the actual facts of Vietnam, and probably thereby debunk the ridiculous Cronkite/MSM cartoon of the war, is a "revisionist".

Anyway, probably should read it, once I finish Conquest's revised Great Terror.

Posted by: rhomboid at May 02, 2015 10:43 PM (afQnV)

94 Thanks to all vets who served. The U.S. military seems to the one government function that does a superior job.

Posted by: Mike at May 02, 2015 10:46 PM (c056A)

95 Dad graduated VPI '66 went 101st - 502nd. He never spoke about his involvement/tours. I watched the documentary - not a doubt in my mind that the 'leaders', then and now, do what they do to deliberately fuck the US as founded.

Posted by: AntiSoviet at May 02, 2015 10:46 PM (dFlVV)

96 Great documentary! Makes me feel like my sacrifice in 1969 was a waste of time! I risked my life for what? Should have fled to Canada!

Posted by: JRT at May 03, 2015 12:41 AM (bY5V3)

97 Father died over there in 1968 and to this day I have no memory of him. Wonder if it was better than what faced him here if he had come back.

Posted by: RGallegos at May 03, 2015 01:43 AM (AVODN)

98 After the fall of South Vietnam, the Communists executed a huge bloodbath -- murdering hundreds of thousands of men, women, and children in cold blood. Up to 155,000 refugees fleeing the N. Vietnam Army were killed or abducted on the road to Tuy Hoa in 1975.

2.5 million S. Vietnamese were sent to Communist concentration camps; an estimated 165,000 of them died. The number who were executed outright was up to 200,000 souls.

The Communists beheaded, eviscerated, or buried their victims alive.

1 million were rounded up and sent by the Communists to "New Economic Zones," where some 50,000 died of brutal slave labor conditions.

2.5 million S. Vietnamese fled by sea, the "Boat People." As many as 400,000 died en route to freedom, according to the U.N.

This doesn't even count the Red Khmer and the Killing Fields, as many as 3 million Cambodians butchered by their Communists; or the Laotian Communists, the Pathet Lao, who butchered 100,000 Hmong people, and inflicted massacres, terror bombings, concentration camps, and mass rapes.

But no worries, mate: the Demoshits assured us there wouldn't be a Real bloodbath or anything. That traitor John Fucking Kerry said on TV that there would "Only" be "about 8,000" butchered (a number he pulled out of his gaping stern tube).

Posted by: Beverly at May 03, 2015 03:45 AM (IjLos)

99 The Congress, the PBS docu doesn't tell you, was MAJORITY DEMOCRAT when they voted to cut off all aid to the Army of South Vietnam. The bastards not only sabotaged our fighting men, they then kicked the stool out from under the S. Vietnamese freedom fighters.

And Gerald Ford tried to save them; but the Enemies Within, who had engineered the defenestration of old Cold Warrior Richard Nixon -- that Watergate bullshit wasn't about their offended sense of rectitude, folks, but about getting Nixon OUT so they could help their communist pals abroad -- those Enemies Within made sure the Communists could take over all of Indochina.

Just like they're now making sure that the Muslim nutjobs across the Middle East will be nuked up.

BTW: You know what the "Plumbers" were breaking into the Watergate complex to find? The men were almost all Cubans. They had intel that the Demoshits were taking serious money from their Communist butt buddy, Fidel Fucking Castro. So they were breaking in to find that out.

But hey! let's keep a sense of proportion here! a minor campaign "dirty trick" (which Nixon didn't even authorize) is far more important than the fact that we have an entire national party that has been the Comintern's personal Golem for the past 80 years!

sheesh.

Posted by: Beverly at May 03, 2015 03:51 AM (IjLos)

100 Thanks. Now I'm depressed all over again. *takes pill* but that was really IS a very good documentary *sips whiskey* the best I've seen too *smokes joint* yeah, I guess I'm glad I relived that all over again. *puff* amazing how all the politicians and mentioned and the fuck ups are Republicans.

Posted by: bour3 at May 03, 2015 03:56 AM (5x3+2)

101 One more note: a collection of first-hand accounts of the fall of Vietnam that's worth reading is "Tears Before the Rain: An Oral History of the Fall of South Vietnam," by Larry Engelmann.

He interviewed both Americans and South Vietnamese, military and civilians, and a couple of reportershits (those last don't dominate, though, don't worry). The atrocities and the terror of the Communist onslaught come through loud and clear.

Posted by: Beverly at May 03, 2015 04:06 AM (IjLos)

102 Andy: Look at Conservapedia dot. com. They have an excellent article titled "Vietnam War," that gives you a lot more information on the war, from 1945 on.

Posted by: Beverly at May 03, 2015 04:21 AM (IjLos)

103 As a young gun (27) I honestly don't think I could have dealt with the 60's/70's if I was growing up in that time frame. Not even counting having to fight in the war you have:

A. The draft. The most evil thing the United States had ever done to its people. Sometimes it is a necessary evil. In the 40's you plucked a kid out of his life, against his will, and sent him to the killing fields because there was no choice. But it would be like drafting us now to fight ISIS (and if ISIS was way more deadly militarily). Are they bad guys? Absolutely. Will they kill thousands of innocents? Yes. Does that give the United States the right to deprive me of my life and liberty against my will? No. You want people to join the military, you bump up the benefits and convince the American people to raise taxes to support it and/or convince them to join. Thats what you do in a free society, a constitutional society, and that should only be violated in times when the nation is at stake.

B. Congress repeals the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution...and the war still goes on, with no constitutional basis and 100% against the law.

C. Johnson lied to get us into the war in any case, so the resolution should have been null and void.

D. Not to mention that Johnson was unelected. JFK cheated to win the presidency. Then he was assassinated, and then an unelected monster forces the American people to fight in a war he lied us into.

E. Then him and congress pass the great society programs that make Obamacare look like a case of limited government.

F. Then you have stuff like... Kent state shootings, libs pouring blood on the steps of the Pentagon, double digit inflation, race riots...

G. And in the meantime, the Commies can nuke you at anytime, and you have people who say their way is superior to Capitalism

H. Carter

I honestly have no clue how you guys managed to stay sane enough and made it through all of that to vote for Reagan. Thank god you did though.

Posted by: Stone at May 03, 2015 11:29 AM (2u11t)

104 Also, the doc was incredibly informative and I enjoyed it. I never expect docs to reveal dem's flaws, so I was surprised when they mentioned the Vietcong were scared of Nixon and considered it par for the course that they did not mention who controlled Congress. Tho I did think it made Ford into a sympathetic figure, a man with his hands tied.

Posted by: Stone at May 03, 2015 11:46 AM (2u11t)

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