DOOM: I make the cloak of sorrow

Welcome to the DOOM Room, hepcats and kittens. It's the only club in town that serves brown liquor and bad news in equal portions. Here's three fingers of catastrophe in a short glass. Drink responsibly.

Yet another example of why defined-benfit pensions are a horrible idea. I'm sure the AARP (the geezer arm of the Democrat propaganda ministry) intends this piece as a call for more welfare spending on the elderly -- because that's really the fundamental message of everything the AARP publishes -- but they unintentionally make the point that relying solely on a pension (or Social Security, for that matter) for your retirement income is a bad idea. It's vital to plan to have multiple sources of retirement income -- personal savings, investments, assets, etc. in addition to pension and Social Security benefits.

There is no such thing as a guarantee in the financial world -- or in the world more generally, for that matter. A promise to pay is only as good as the ability to pay.

Ferguson and the modern debtor's prison. Ferguson isn't about race, except as viewed through the warped lens of the current Administration. The Michael Brown story, as reported, was a media fiction, but there was an actual outrage being committed in Ferguson. The larger story is about runaway government using the legal system as a stealth tax-collection agency. It's an outrage, and Ferguson is far from the only place where this is a problem. This isn't about cops catching murderers, rapists, and thieves; this is about the justice system shaking down citizens for tinted windows and beautician's license violations. A truly free people wouldn't stand for this kind of crap. (And don't get me started about the relentless creep of government regulation on things that don't need to be regulated.)

As Kevin D. Williamson writes: "When the law does not apply to the lawmakers and law-enforcers, you are not being governed: You are being ruled. And we are ruled by criminals."

Mr. Williamson also has some wise thoughts about student debt. Buyer's remorse is not sufficient reason to repudiate a legally-incurred debt, kids. If you signed on the dotted line, you're responsible for paying off the debt. If you find the terms too onerous or the return on the investment too meager...well, that mistake is on you, not the bank. One of the responsibilities of an adult is to educate yourself on how to conduct your own financial affairs. If you can't bothered to do that, then maybe you're not ready to be an adult yet, and shouldn't be borrowing money.

What (may be) the story behind negative-yield bonds. I remain a bond bear, and I think the people who are paying to loan banks money are nuts, but...we'll see.

Everyone's heard the old saying about history repeating itself first as tragedy, then as farce; the Greek soap opera has entered the "farce" stage. When a nation-state is reduced to suggesting that tourists act as ad-hoc tax-compliance officers, that nation-state is out of serious options. The Greek reform proposal to the ECB/EC/IMF troika is so devoid of actual reforms that one can only assume it was written as absurdist comedy. To paraphrase Oscar Wilde, one must have a heart of stone to read this document without laughing.

Which is not to say that the Greeks themselves find anything the slightest bit amusing in the situation. Greece is in the midst of a grinding depression that extends in all directions as far as the eye can see, and all available options are simply variations on the same horrible theme: privation, misery, humiliation. An outsider, though, can only give a sad shake of the head -- Greece has never in its entire modern history as a nation-state been anything other than an economic basket-case. It should never have been incorporated into the Eurozone in the first place, and the fact that it was simply illustrates the defective design and governance of the Eurozone. Kicking Greece out of the Eurozone won't solve the problem, but leaving Greece in the Eurozone pretty much guarantees that Greece will simply...bleed out. You know you're in an authentic disaster scenario when all the options you have left are horrible.

One thing I can tell the Greeks, though: the solution to your problem is not more voting. What's a referendum going to prove? The Greeks know they owe a lot of money; they know they don't want to pay it back. They know they're not going to be able to legislate that fact out of existence. They know they want to stay in the Eurozone because reverting to the drachma would cause even more pain than they're in now, but they also know that staying in the Eurozone means doing things they really, really don't want to do. More voting isn't going to unravel the knot.

And speaking of the Eurozone, here's the latest success story: Austria.

Don Boudreaux on the flaw in how mainstream economics defines monopsony, particularly regarding employers operating as "buyers" of labor.

This just in: fraud requires chumps as well as confidence men to work. Snake-oil only exists because there are suckers in the world willing to pay for it. Want to avoid being cheated? Don't be a chump. (Having said that: I myself have purchased my share of CRAZY ONE-TIME-ONLY DEALS. Everybody sacrifices on the altar of chumpitude from time to time.)

Inside the currency wars. Holding the world's default reserve currency has delivered the USA many benefits, but there are downsides.

Boomers fret that their kids are ruining their retirements. Millennials, meanwhile, fret that their parents and grandparents are ruining their futures. That's the reality of the welfare state, babies: it pits those who fund the government cheese against those who receive it. The welfare state was always a game of musical chairs, and it may be Millennials who are left standing when the music stops. Or they may wise up and just refuse to play the game any more.

I often catch heat for bashing on Boomers in this space, but mostly I'm trying to point out that the problem will require everybody to accept some unsavory truths. Boomers being mad at the young 'uns, the young 'uns being mad at the Boomers: they're both getting mad at the wrong people. The problem is with the federal government, and at some point everybody is going to have to accept that the promises made by this corrupt bunch of assholes cannot be kept, and it's morally wrong to burden future generations to pay for these lies.

For older people, the problem is one of sunk costs: we have to accept that much of the money we "paid in" to the welfare state was summarily squandered. There is no giant pile of money sitting in a vault somewhere. There is only an ocean of debt. For younger people, it's a matter of accepting that a 65-year-old retiree can't simply turn on a dime and reverse a lifetime's worth of decision-making. Decisions driven by rules and incentives prevailing at the time the decisions were made. (In retirement planning as in investing more generally, uncertainty is the worst enemy.)

The perverse actions of the federal government over the past sixty or seventy years have put retirees fundamentally at odds with younger workers -- the incentives are completely inverted depending on which group you happen to be in. It is this aspect of the welfare state that I loathe the most: the fracturing of familial and generational bonds, the mortgaging of the lives and labor of children (and generations yet unborn) who are being given no say in the matter. One of the absolute bedrock principles of liberty -- political, social, cultural -- is consent, and our children did not consent to have these burdens placed upon them.

Ultimately, a new compact between old and young is going to have to be forged. Young people need to understand that retirees, as a rule, didn't choose to be put in the spot they're in. Retirees need to understand that it's morally wrong to expect young people to forgo their own financial futures to finance the retirements of their elders. There needs to be an understanding among all adults, young and old, that "fair" is no longer in the cards. We have been cheated, all of us, and the money is long gone. The best we can do now is mitigate the consequences of the fraud perpetrated on us. But the first step in that mitigation process is accepting that the status quo is unsustainable...and ethically reprehensible.

'Tis the season to offer economic advice to college grads (whether they ask for it or not). If I could boil down my own thoughts on this topic to once sentence, it would be this: "do what you love" is really shitty career advice. Be realistic, both in your choice of college majors and in the job market you expect to enter after graduation. Understand that you are not, in fact, a special snowflake - there are thousands of other people just like you, with the same basic credentials and skills, all competing for the same jobs. Find a job that you can tolerate and that pays enough to make a living, and do that job as well as you can until a better opportunity comes along. Hustle will pay greater dividends than any credential I can think of. If you like stargazing or painting pictures of boats, do it on the weekends. End of advice.

Posted by: Monty at 09:30 AM

Comments

(Jump to bottom of comments)

1 Doom on Daylight Savings Monday. What hell.

Posted by: fairweatherbill at March 09, 2015 09:30 AM (cNpuB)

2 First to hell, last to breakfast.

Posted by: fairweatherbill at March 09, 2015 09:31 AM (cNpuB)

3 A qiestipn borne from perusing the previous Dump links:
If Firefox is dying, what browser should I use now? I have an ancient Mac that is stuck at its current Safari version because the OS just goes that far.

Posted by: @votermom at March 09, 2015 09:34 AM (cbfNE)

4 Here's what I don't understand about the people walking away from their student loans...

Why don't they just get a forbearance? You can avoid making loan payments for years and years that way, and then consolidate your loans and restart the clock. With a tiny bit of effort, you can avoid paying loans for half a decade, at least. Is that not enough time to get settled and find a real job?

Posted by: Lauren at March 09, 2015 09:35 AM (MYCIw)

5 Barack Obama is a SCOAMT.

Posted by: AllenG (DedicatedTenther) - TrueCon at March 09, 2015 09:35 AM (kff5f)

6 Burn it down.
Scatter the stones.
Salt the earth where it stood.

Posted by: AllenG (DedicatedTenther) - TrueCon at March 09, 2015 09:36 AM (kff5f)

7 >Buyer's remorse is not sufficient reason to repudiate a legally-incurred debt, kids. If you signed on the dotted line, you're responsible for paying off the debt. If you find the terms too onerous or the return on the investment too meager...well, that mistake is on you, not the bank.

When the bank partners with the colleges to promote and advertise the hell out of the allege necessity of a college, when the culture drills it into everyone's head that everyone (even a plumber) needs a college degree, when the cultural pressure is all around that a college degree is essential... then total culpability, while not lost, starts to at least shake a bit.

I'm more than happy to screw either the banks or, ideally, the universities on this one. And none of that 'but the honor of your agreement' shit - neither banks nor universities care much about that.

Posted by: Crude at March 09, 2015 09:36 AM (DUynq)

8 Debtors prison? I'd agree. Stepson owes over 4k in traffic tickets. Yes, he was stupid but it's easy to pay those fines if you have money. If you don't, they throw you in jail. He doesn't need jail time for driving while suspended because he couldn't pay the fine.

And while I agree about paying off student loans, they are a huge financial burden on these kids. They can't start families, buy a home or save for the future. We need to make personal finance a mandatory class in high school. But that would teach them how to think for themselves. We can't have that.

Posted by: Notsothoreau at March 09, 2015 09:37 AM (Lqy/e)

9 A little Doom! positivity this morning.

Posted by: Ricardo Kill at March 09, 2015 09:37 AM (vvS6Q)

10 "When the law does not apply to the lawmakers and law-enforcers, you are not being governed: You are being ruled. And we are ruled by criminals."

When the government is not subject to its own laws (or "rules"- had to throw that in for AtC), it is no longer a legitimate government.

Posted by: AllenG (DedicatedTenther) - TrueCon at March 09, 2015 09:37 AM (kff5f)

11 With a tiny bit of effort, you can avoid paying loans for half a decade, at least. Is that not enough time to get settled and find a real job?

Posted by: Lauren at March 09, 2015 09:35 AM (MYCIw)

Listen, if I never finish my 3-hour epic journey through the herstory of wymen told via marionettes - who will. I don't have time to have a real job and work on "Wymen & Woodies" at the same tine

Posted by: Student Loaned at March 09, 2015 09:38 AM (+hB3s)

12 4
Why would they do that, when the govt has been talking about forgiving student loans?

Posted by: wrg500 at March 09, 2015 09:38 AM (S+el1)

13 Snake-oil only exists because there are suckers in the world...

***

Well, it also helps to keep Hillary's skin supple and youthful-looking.

Posted by: Muldoon, a solid man at March 09, 2015 09:38 AM (NeFrd)

14 typo alert-->Kevin D. Williamson, at National Review

(not Kevin D. Williams)

He's good.

Posted by: m at March 09, 2015 09:39 AM (rn/hC)

15 #3

If the machine is that old it becomes a moot point as the choices are so limited. What version of Mac OS are you running? You need to know that before you can determine your options.

Posted by: Epobirs at March 09, 2015 09:39 AM (IdCqF)

16 "And while I agree about paying off student loans, they are a huge financial burden on these kids. They can't start families, buy a home or save for the future. "

Uh, sure they can. My husband and I both have student loans, but we can check all those boxes. Now, they may not be able to buy the house they want if they have a really high student loan balance, but having jsut been through the process, if you modify your loan terms or put the loans in forbearance during the sell, your debt to income ratio will reflect that change.

Posted by: Lauren at March 09, 2015 09:39 AM (MYCIw)

17 The last paragraph of today's Doom should be tattooed on the butt of every high school guidance counselor. Unfortunately it isn't. That's generally where the "union" label is affixed.

Posted by: fairweatherbill at March 09, 2015 09:40 AM (cNpuB)

18 There is no giant pile of money sitting in a vault somewhere"

Sure there is. I mean, there are plenty of 60 somethings collecting two (or more) retirements plus SS, and are in great physical shape, so they'll be pulling that down for the next 20 to 40 years...

What, me worry?

Posted by: anon a mouse at March 09, 2015 09:41 AM (/jpU8)

19 (Having said that: I myself have purchased my share of CRAZY ONE-TIME-ONLY DEALS. Everybody sacrifices on the altar of chumpitude from time to time.)

For myself, I view such purchases (and, yes, I've made a couple) as entertainment dollars (or "luxury" dollars, I suppose). Money on which I expected no lasting return in the first place- so if it turns out to be a scam (as it has from time to time), then I'm not actually harmed by it- however annoyed I may be.

Posted by: AllenG (DedicatedTenther) - TrueCon at March 09, 2015 09:41 AM (kff5f)

20 Well, it also helps to keep Hillary's skin supple and youthful-looking.
Posted by: Muldoon, a solid man at March 09, 2015 09:38 AM

The blood of virgins helps, too.

Posted by: RedMindBlueState at March 09, 2015 09:41 AM (h4vJk)

21 "Do the thing you hate the least that still pays well" is my motto.

Posted by: HoboJerk, TPHSATAR at March 09, 2015 09:41 AM (FA3Z7)

22 Now, they may not be able to buy the house they want"

Huh. You mean they'll have to settle for "oil rubbed bronze" instead of "brushed aluminum and nickel"?

The shame.

Posted by: anon a mouse at March 09, 2015 09:42 AM (/jpU8)

23 "There is no giant pile of money sitting in a vault somewhere"

Quit looking at me.

Posted by: 401K at March 09, 2015 09:42 AM (vvS6Q)

24 Boomers being mad at the young 'uns, the young 'uns being mad at the Boomers: they're both getting mad at the wrong people. The problem is with the federal government

This.

Posted by: AllenG (DedicatedTenther) - TrueCon at March 09, 2015 09:43 AM (kff5f)

25 23 "There is no giant pile of money sitting in a vault somewhere"

Quit looking at me.
Posted by: 401K at March 09, 2015 09:42 AM (vvS6Q)

Hah-ha, ...oh wait...

Posted by: 529 at March 09, 2015 09:43 AM (+hB3s)

26 Quit looking at me.

Posted by: 401K at March 09, 2015

Mmmm. yeah. Ok. Sure. Whatever you say.

Posted by: The GOPe at March 09, 2015 09:43 AM (/jpU8)

27 "If you signed on the dotted line, you're responsible for paying off the
debt. If you find the terms too onerous or the return on the investment
too meager...well, that mistake is on you, not the bank."

A friend once suggested curtailment of certain rights as an option in bankruptcy court, as well as in other types of court.

If I'm an irresponsible goof, and I've mismanaged my financial situation through obvious reckless spending on frivolities, and I end up in bankruptcy court petitioning for relief from my creditors, shouldn't I give up some things in exchange for said relief?

Such as (for some reasonable period of time) my right to vote?

After all, if I'm a poor steward of my own affairs, does this not indicate that I'm likely to be an even worse steward of public affairs?

And if I then square myself away and demonstrate that I'm handling my person and my household responsibly, is that not then evidence that I may be up for handling civic responsibility again?

Posted by: torquewrench at March 09, 2015 09:43 AM (noWW6)

28 Hey, remember when giving a mortgage with unrealistic terms to someone unqualified was "predatory lending"?

So about those student loans, bloated leftist "non-profit" universities....

Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at March 09, 2015 09:43 AM (659DL)

29 typo alert-->Kevin D. Williamson, at National Review

--------

Thanks - typo should be fixed now.

Posted by: Monty at March 09, 2015 09:44 AM (jpJHO)

30 My 17 year old daughter told me this weekend that she figures that with the 2 jobs she is working she could save 5000 dollars before she leaves for college in the fall. I told her that was great. Her comment was yea, with 5000 grand she could take a great vacation before school. It was all I could do to keep from choking her.

Posted by: wrg500 at March 09, 2015 09:44 AM (S+el1)

31
DOOM!

Yay!

Posted by: IllTemperedCur at March 09, 2015 09:44 AM (SpnVI)

32 It's vital to plan to have multiple sources of retirement
income -- personal savings, investments, assets, etc. in addition to pension and Social Security benefits.

Pimping. Black market viagra dealing.

Posted by: rickb223 at March 09, 2015 09:44 AM (tJipK)

33 Listen, if I never finish my 3-hour epic journey through the herstory of wymen told via marionettes "

I can't believe you left out "giant paper mache heads".
You'll never advance in our Gender studies program....

/notreallysarcanymore

Posted by: anon a mouse at March 09, 2015 09:45 AM (/jpU8)

34 Pimping. Black market viagra dealing.
Posted by: rickb223 at March 09, 2015 09:44 AM (tJipK)

He, what about me?

Posted by: Meth at March 09, 2015 09:45 AM (+hB3s)

35 Such as (for some reasonable period of time) my right to vote?

Posted by: torquewrench at March 09, 2015 09:43 AM (noWW6)

Aside from obviously being unconstitutional somehow this doesn't punish the people who actively pushed the non-dichargable debt.

Posted by: HoboJerk, The State Loves You at March 09, 2015 09:45 AM (FA3Z7)

36 So Monty, what you're saying is that you ordered the Snuggie (TM) from a late night commercial?

**snicker**

Posted by: Muldoon, a solid man at March 09, 2015 09:46 AM (NeFrd)

37 "Huh. You mean they'll have to settle for "oil rubbed bronze" instead of "brushed aluminum and nickel"? "

Haha. The horror! My generation seems to have missed the concept of the "starter house" completely. I'm always shocked though, because deals are there if you're willing to look. In our case, we moved out of a city that was driving us crazy, and in doing so shaved 100K off the price of our house. Literally. Same builder. Same model. 100K more expensive in Austin.

To us it was the easiest decision of all time, but to a lot of our cohorts the idea of moving to the country is the same as suicide.

Posted by: Lauren at March 09, 2015 09:46 AM (MYCIw)

38 (Having said that: I myself have purchased my share of CRAZY ONE-TIME-ONLY DEALS. Everybody sacrifices on the altar of chumpitude from time to time.)

For myself, I view such purchases (and, yes, I've made a couple) as entertainment dollars (or "luxury" dollars, I suppose).

Beanie Babies FTW!

Posted by: rickb223 at March 09, 2015 09:46 AM (tJipK)

39 My generation seems to have missed the concept of the "starter house" completely"

Yeah, pretty much. I'm amazed to see "starter" properties dolled up beyond our "old school" place.

Bizarre.

Posted by: anon a mouse at March 09, 2015 09:47 AM (/jpU8)

40 When the bank partners with the colleges to promote and advertise the hell out of the allege necessity of a college, when the culture drills it into everyone's head that everyone (even a plumber) needs a college degree, when the cultural pressure is all around that a college degree is essential... then total culpability, while not lost, starts to at least shake a bit.

It's moral hazard all the way down. And the bottom culprit is neither the banks nor the universities, but the government.

Federally subsidized loans for *anything* is a bad idea.

If you want to fix this, virtually overnight, stop subsidizing student loans. Banks know the truth of "you can't get blood from a turnip," so they know that when a kid gets a student loan, unless they get a degree that leads to a paying job, that money is likely just "gone."

Without the subsidies, they have to consider such things when they hand out loans. Just like they care what kind of car you're buying and what condition its in when you want a car loan, they would start caring about your chosen major and grades when you applied for student loans.

Hence, less "free" money. Hence, lowering tuition rates (supply and demand).

Posted by: AllenG (DedicatedTenther) - TrueCon at March 09, 2015 09:48 AM (kff5f)

41 37
I've been living in a starter house for 30 years.

Posted by: wrg500 at March 09, 2015 09:48 AM (S+el1)

42 Pimping. Black market viagra dealing.
Posted by: rickb223

He, what about me?
Posted by: Meth

That's a youngster drug. Thinking retirement home gangsta.

Posted by: rickb223 at March 09, 2015 09:48 AM (tJipK)

43 I'm right at the top of the Gen X (remember when that was a thing?) cohort and I always thought that this job satisfaction thing was a hoax played on us by boomers. Hey, you get to wear jeans to work isn't that awesome?

Screw that pay me more I will wear a tie.

Your dad or mom did not choose what they loved, they worked what they had to to out a roof over your head and food in your mouth.

Posted by: blaster at March 09, 2015 09:48 AM (Rx8ML)

44 So Monty, what you're saying is that you ordered the Snuggie (TM) from a late night commercial?

-------

The defendant stands mute, Your Honor.

Posted by: Monty at March 09, 2015 09:48 AM (jpJHO)

45 Pimping. Black market viagra dealing.
Posted by: rickb223 at March 09, 2015 09:44 AM (tJipK)

He, what about me?
Posted by: Meth

Marijuana is the drug of choice among the retirement age boomers. Build your greenhouse know.

Posted by: fairweatherbill greenhouse contractor at March 09, 2015 09:49 AM (cNpuB)

46 Beanie Babies FTW!

Posted by: rickb223 at March 09, 2015 09:46 AM (tJipK)

sadly, i have a relative who invested heavily in beanie babies so she could put her daughters through college....let's just say it didn't work out.......

Posted by: phoenixgirl at March 09, 2015 09:49 AM (u8GsB)

47 I'll have a breakfast beer with a doom chaser.

Posted by: toby928(C) at March 09, 2015 09:49 AM (evdj2)

48 "There is no giant pile of money sitting in a vault somewhere"

You would not believe how many conversations I have had with people who believe in the most literal sense that there is a specific numbered account just for them, containing to the penny all the Social Security taxes they have ever paid in, untouched, plus interest, waiting for their retirement date.

Rude surprises await.

Posted by: torquewrench at March 09, 2015 09:49 AM (noWW6)

49
That's a youngster drug. Thinking retirement home gangsta.
Posted by: rickb223 at March 09, 2015 09:48 AM (tJipK)

bitch!

Posted by: Meth at March 09, 2015 09:50 AM (+hB3s)

50 The struggle is about who gets a hair cut and when.

But make no mistake someone's getting a hair cut.

Posted by: Kreplach at March 09, 2015 09:50 AM (lGNaU)

51
To us it was the easiest decision of all time, but to a lot of our cohorts the idea of moving to the country is the same as suicide.

Posted by: Lauren at March 09, 2015 09:46 AM (MYCIw)

The other day, I was talking to the young cashier at the grocery store and mentioned that I was a recent transplant from CA to here in TX. She looked at me like I had a third testicle growing out of my ear.

"You moved from *there* to *here*???????"

Couldn't fathom the fact that anywhere that's supposedly cosmopolitan and sophisticated is fucking overrated. And it IS a fact.

Posted by: IllTemperedCur at March 09, 2015 09:51 AM (SpnVI)

52 sadly, i have a relative who invested heavily in beanie babies"

Hmm. We related? I've similar foolishness in my family. One has been paying for climate controlled storage of her "stash" for years now, and assures everyone that "they're just about to go big time"

I can't even comprehend.

Posted by: anon a mouse at March 09, 2015 09:51 AM (/jpU8)

53 Marijuana is the drug of choice among the retirement age boomers.

That's why I went with pimping and viagra. Old pole dancers need work and the old men need help getting it up.

Posted by: rickb223 at March 09, 2015 09:51 AM (tJipK)

54 Thinking retirement home gangsta.

Posted by: rickb223 at March 09, 2015 09:48 AM (tJipK)

****

Pssst, hey lady. Wanna buy a quick fix?

Fix-O-Dent, heh!

Posted by: Muldoon, a solid man at March 09, 2015 09:51 AM (NeFrd)

55 Great piece about retirement and social security - but a tough sell.

I've had this argument over and over again on CONSERVATIVE sites with erstwhile conservatives, and they fight tooth and nail for full funding of all SS benefits no matter what.

So, if you can't even get conservatives to see reality when it comes to SS, how do you imagine you are going to low-information voters and liberals to understand and agree?

I'll put money on it that at least a few "conservative" commenters will write something in response to the OP or this comment that "I paid into the system and I damn well am going to get my full benefits".

Of course, the amount you paid in does not remotely equal the amount of your "full benefits". That is the problem (along with the fact that the gov't didn't save or invest the money, but instead spent it).

But, everyone knew the gov't was spending the SS it collected. Everyone knew it wasn't invested and there was no pot of money to finance SS benefits. And everyone kept voting for that to continue. So, arguing now that "I paid in dammit" is absurd. You paid in knowing it was a three-card monte game. Sure, maybe some tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny, percentage of oldsters voted against the continued spending, etc., but not many. If you voted for almost any incumbent (GOP or DNC) in the last 50 years, you voted for someone who in turn voted to continue the spending and continue the fraud. So you can't claim you aren't part of the problem.

Even during the glorious Reagan years or the GOP control of the W years, the SS spending continued and the fraud continued. So, how can anyone claim they are not a party to the fraud?

Posted by: monkeytoe at March 09, 2015 09:51 AM (3ZtZW)

56 Soooo...we're supposed to take 5'5" (maybe) Sean Penn seriously as an action star?

At long last, Hollywood...have you no shame?

Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at March 09, 2015 09:52 AM (659DL)

57 "When the law does not apply to the lawmakers and law-enforcers, you are not being governed: You are being ruled. And we are ruled by criminals."

I read Williamson's article last night. That quote jumped out at me, too. Well stated.

Posted by: rickl at March 09, 2015 09:52 AM (zoehZ)

58 My generation seems to have missed the concept of the "starter house" completely"

Sadly, this.

My wife likes HGTV, and I'll watch Property Brothers or Fixer-Upper with her from time to time. It amazes me what newlywed couples are willing to spend on a home.

I tend to laugh at them. "Look, you *could* drop $500k on your "dream house"- because your lender says so- or you could drop $150k on a good enough house, and really build up a good economic foundation for later in life.

People don't even think of being "house poor" anymore. It's like they can't imagine it.

Posted by: AllenG (DedicatedTenther) - TrueCon at March 09, 2015 09:52 AM (kff5f)

59 "There is no giant pile of money sitting in a vault somewhere"

My BIL is that way with his teacher retirement. "BUTBUTBUT I paid into to it for 30 yearsssssss!"

Good for you, but you didn't pay in enough and the fund has not earned enough to warrant the retirement pay "they" promised you for the next 35 years.

Posted by: Bruce at March 09, 2015 09:52 AM (8ikIW)

60 The struggle is about who gets a hair cut and when.

But make no mistake someone's getting a hair cut"

This is the real key that the "doom" threads miss - sure, s rolls downhill, but the key is to not be at the bottom of said cliff...

Posted by: anon a mouse at March 09, 2015 09:52 AM (/jpU8)

61 50 The struggle is about who gets a hair cut and when.

But make no mistake someone's getting a hair cut.

That thing about two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch.

FSA getting pretty big.

Posted by: blaster at March 09, 2015 09:53 AM (Rx8ML)

62 "You moved from *there* to *here*???????"
"

Haha, I take it she's never been to Southlake?

It always cracks me up when people move from their little 2 room shack in California and realize what that 500K can get them in Texas. Their eyes light up like a kid at Christmas. Or they do what our former landlords did and buy two houses and have instant rental income.

Ah, the land of the free.

Posted by: Lauren at March 09, 2015 09:53 AM (MYCIw)

63 Haha. The horror! My generation seems to have
missed the concept of the "starter house" completely. I'm always shocked
though, because deals are there if you're willing to look. In our case,
we moved out of a city that was driving us crazy, and in doing so
shaved 100K off the price of our house. Literally. Same builder. Same
model. 100K more expensive in Austin.
Posted by: Lauren at March 09, 2015 09:46 AM

I blame HGTV. Anyone who watches their programs learns all the buzzwords, and won't settle for a "starter home" that doesn't have an "open floor plan," "high-end materials," "granite countertops" and a "rain shower."

Posted by: MrScribbler at March 09, 2015 09:53 AM (P8YHq)

64 I'll watch Property Brothers or Fixer-Upper with her from time to time. It amazes me what newlywed couples are willing to spend on a home.

Buying Alaska. I like some of the off the grid stuff.

Posted by: wrg500 at March 09, 2015 09:54 AM (S+el1)

65 Greece needs to leave the Euro for everyone's benefit, including their own. Greece is a poor but not starving country. Unless it becomes some compact intellectual or trading giant like Hong Kong or Singapore, the Greeks need to be resigned to a lower middle class existence. Which is not a bad fate, all things considered. 200 years ago, sheep were grazing amid the ruins and hovels of Athens.

Posted by: toby928(C) at March 09, 2015 09:54 AM (evdj2)

66 One has been paying for climate controlled storage of her "stash" for years now, and assures everyone that "they're just about to go big time"

BITCOIN!!!!!!!!!

Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at March 09, 2015 09:54 AM (659DL)

67 "You moved from *[CA]* to *[TX]*???????"

That is definitely a minority view, in my experience.

Most Texans believe of California: "It's a nice place to visit, but I wouldn't want to live there."

Posted by: AllenG (DedicatedTenther) - TrueCon at March 09, 2015 09:55 AM (kff5f)

68 "We have been cheated, all of us, and the money is long gone."

Wrong.

For generations we've been led to believe the country was so wealthy that the taxpayers could place enormous swaths of land, minerals, timber, ports, coastline, undersea shelves etc. into the hands of politicians. Tens of trillions in hard assets, costing billions to maintain each year, that government that operated under our constitution has no business owning.

Of course, it can't be disposed of in a "fire sale", so the only prudent action is to establish a quasi-governmental agency that monetizes the assets for immediate use but disposes of the assets over a 100 year period.

When you're having trouble paying the mortgage, it's time to sell the family jewels.

Posted by: jwest at March 09, 2015 09:55 AM (9ZZd+)

69 I'll put money on it that at least a few "conservative" commenters will write something in response to the OP or this comment that "I paid into the system and I damn well am going to get my full benefits".
Of course, the amount you paid in does not remotely equal the amount of your "full benefits".

Then when I retire, pay me what I put in in a lump sum, plus a small % as interest and leave me the. fvck. alone.

Posted by: rickb223 at March 09, 2015 09:55 AM (tJipK)

70 200 years ago, sheep were grazing amid the ruins and hovels of Athens

I was stationed there late 80s. That wasn't 200 years ago.

Posted by: blaster at March 09, 2015 09:56 AM (Rx8ML)

71 "do what you love" is really shitty career advice

Um, I love physics, nuclear engineering and computer programming. My careers have been as a computer programmer and an engineer; my current job combines both skill sets. So I actually get to do what I love. I will admit that my situation is somewhat unusual.

Back when I was in college, I wanted to major in physics, but I was worried about what kind of work I could find. A friend of mine owned his own business, a lighting fixture company; he had majored in early childhood education. His advice to me was simple:

"Study what you really love because you'll put your heart and soul into it and you'll likely do very well academically. However, and this is crucial, be sure to pick up some marketable skills along the way."

Best advice anyone ever gave me.

Posted by: physics geek at March 09, 2015 09:56 AM (MT22W)

72 "There is no giant pile of money sitting in a vault somewhere"

Democrats look at 401k's and think your wrong. And being Democrats, they want to control and tax it. Thus, the new Ponzi scheme MYIRA is hatched and up and running. Only an idiot would put their money in it, which means that pretty soon it will be mandatory. Then they'll look at forcing existing IRA's and 401k's into it.
Now that's some real DOOM.

Posted by: fairweatherbill greenhouse contractor at March 09, 2015 09:56 AM (cNpuB)

73 If there are two words used together that I could ban for all time, it'd be "granite countertops".

The percentage of "granite" countertops that actually contain "granite" is maybe...

well, nevermind. Most are plastic coated polished rock, sold at a markup that would make Apple or ExxonMobil blush.

Posted by: anon a mouse at March 09, 2015 09:56 AM (/jpU8)

74 blame HGTV. Anyone who watches their programs
learns all the buzzwords, and won't settle for a "starter home" that
doesn't have an "open floor plan," "high-end materials," "granite
countertops" and a "rain shower."

Posted by: MrScribbler

You forgot "man cave"
Sounds dirty though don't it.

Posted by: Bruce at March 09, 2015 09:57 AM (8ikIW)

75 jwest, I have to give it to you--there is a certain admirable quality in being predictably repetitive.

Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at March 09, 2015 09:57 AM (659DL)

76 It always cracks me up when people move from their little 2 room shack in California and realize what that 500K can get them in Texas. Their eyes light up like a kid at Christmas. Or they do what our former landlords did and buy two houses and have instant rental income.

Exactly.

I was at my Parents' this weekend, and House Hunters came on. People in Chicago had a budget of $450K for a 2 bed, 2 bath condo.

In Arlington, you could buy 3 houses for that, live in a nice one that you bought for $250K, and pay the mortgage on all three from the two you bought at $100K each.

Posted by: AllenG (DedicatedTenther) - TrueCon at March 09, 2015 09:57 AM (kff5f)

77 Obama has a lot of nerve talking about Ferguson MO shaking down citizens and stealing their money.

Chicago has the most red light cameras of any city in the USA. Studies have shown that red light cameras CAUSE rear-end accidents b/c motorists slam on their brakes to avoid a ticket, and the motorist behind them can't stop in time.
So not only can you get a $100 ticket, you can suffer thousands of dollars in damage to your car too - winning!

Jesus Garcia - mayoral challenger to Rham Emanuel, the current mayor - has announced he will remove all red light cameras the day he takes office. This weekend, Rham announced 50 of the hundreds of red light cameras have been taken off line and will be removed at some point.

Safety schmafety - red light cameras, speed cameras, all ways for govt to pick your pocket.

Posted by: Boots at March 09, 2015 09:58 AM (l9mF2)

78 "We have been cheated, all of us, and the money is long gone." Wrong. For generations we've been led to believe the country was so wealthy that the taxpayers could place enormous swaths of land, minerals, timber, ports, coastline, undersea shelves etc. into the hands of politicians. Tens of trillions in hard assets, costing billions to maintain each year, that government that operated under our constitution has no business owning.
Posted by: jwest

Not wrong. The money was collected, and the money was spent.

Yes, the government is holding massive assets, and yes, they can be liquidated. One is not related to the other, except when the money from one was used to pay for the other.

Posted by: Blue Hen at March 09, 2015 09:58 AM (b7GF2)

79 Universal suffrage is the bane of civilization. But both parties are hell-bent on getting as many criminals and idiots to vote as possible.

Posted by: Citizen Cake at March 09, 2015 09:58 AM (PtTYB)

80 yes, they can be liquidated"

Only if there are buyers.

Posted by: anon a mouse at March 09, 2015 09:59 AM (/jpU8)

81 Haha. The horror! My generation seems to have
missed the concept of the "starter house" completely. I'm always shocked
though, because deals are there if you're willing to look. In our case,
we moved out of a city that was driving us crazy, and in doing so
shaved 100K off the price of our house. Literally. Same builder. Same
model. 100K more expensive in Austin.
Posted by: Lauren at March 09, 2015 09:46 AM

My wife and I both had (separately) starter homes (i.e., very small, cheap houses), then when we married, we lived in her small house for a few years. then we bought a bigger house in a new development - but still the cheapest house in the development - by far. We also buy very, very modest vehicles.

I look around at all of our neighbors in houses $50 - $150k more expensive than ours, driving $50,000 cars, and wonder where they get their money. My wife and I both make good livings (we are both professionals), I can't imagine they earn that much more than us (a lot of stay-at-home moms, with police officer or teacher husbands, for instance). I can only imagine that they are not saving at all, either in immediate savings, or in retirement savings.

Posted by: monkeytoe at March 09, 2015 09:59 AM (3ZtZW)

82 Snake-oil only exists because there are suckers in the world willing to
pay for it. Want to avoid being cheated? Don't be a chump. (Having said
that: I myself have purchased my share of CRAZY ONE-TIME-ONLY DEALS.
Everybody sacrifices on the altar of chumpitude from time to time.)
==========
Shorter phrase is: "You can't con an honest man."

The only reason cons work is because the mark thinks he's cheating someone else.

Posted by: RoyalOil at March 09, 2015 09:59 AM (ZvKdv)

83 When the government is not subject to its own laws
(or "rules"- had to throw that in for AtC), it is no longer a legitimate
government.

Posted by: AllenG (DedicatedTenther) - TrueCon at March 09, 2015 09:37 AM (kff5f)

At least for now, it appears that the lower level government functionaries are not completely immune from selective prosecution for arbitrary violation of the "rules", but it obvious that senior levels of government are, either because they wrote the "rules" themselves (Congressional insider trading anyone), the warped judicial system has conferred special privilege on them, or because the senior "rulers" will circle the wagons to protect favored minions.The day is not far off when a lot more "government authorities" will have badges, a very long list of "rules" you had no part in creating, and police powers to enforce them.
Now where did I put that case of green-tip ammo?

Posted by: Hrothgar at March 09, 2015 09:59 AM (ftVQq)

84 "
I blame HGTV"

Seriously. There's also this weird idea that you graduate college and suddenly have the same standard of living as your 50 year old parents. Our first apartment had those huge pull blinds as a "wall" between the bedroom and living room, ffs. It was also $400/month. We survived.

Posted by: Lauren at March 09, 2015 09:59 AM (MYCIw)

85 You forgot "man cave" Sounds dirty though don't it. Posted by: Bruce at March 09, 2015 09:57 AM

I always enjoy the shows where the homeowner insists on having the house wired for every conceivable TV/audio gadget, when you know damn well all that crap will be obsolete before the paint dries.

One show had a dude who, halfway through the renovation, decided his "man cave" would be a "couples cave." It made wifey happy....

Posted by: MrScribbler at March 09, 2015 10:00 AM (P8YHq)

86 My multiple sources of retirement income are to Keep Working

Posted by: Bigby's Brass Knuckles at March 09, 2015 10:00 AM (3ZtZW)

87 "do what you love" is really shitty career advice

I love dancing naked around the house. Unfortunately with my looks and body I'll starve.

Posted by: wrg500 at March 09, 2015 10:00 AM (S+el1)

88 Despite the whole ethnic coalition building the Dems are doing, the truth is that big government is stuff white people like. If your parents have SS and Medicare you don't need to care for them.

Posted by: blaster at March 09, 2015 10:00 AM (Rx8ML)

89 they can be liquidated

I got excited for a second, but then realized we were talking about assets and not politicians.

Posted by: toby928(C) at March 09, 2015 10:00 AM (evdj2)

90 Then when I retire, pay me what I put in in a lump sum, plus a small % as interest and leave me the. fvck. alone.

Posted by: rickb223 at March 09, 2015 09:55 AM (tJipK)

As if meaning to prove my point.

Posted by: monkeytoe at March 09, 2015 10:00 AM (3ZtZW)

91
That is definitely a minority view, in my experience.

Most Texans believe of California: "It's a nice place to visit, but I wouldn't want to live there."

Posted by: AllenG (DedicatedTenther) - TrueCon at March 09, 2015 09:55 AM (kff5f)

The operative word in my description of her was "young".

Which of course, is an alternate term for "stupid".

Posted by: IllTemperedCur at March 09, 2015 10:00 AM (SpnVI)

92 Universal suffrage is the bane of civilization.
But both parties are hell-bent on getting as many criminals and idiots to vote as possible.

And we suffer universally for it. (SWIDT)

Posted by: rickb223 at March 09, 2015 10:01 AM (tJipK)

93 The only reason cons work is because the mark thinks he's cheating someone else.
Posted by: RoyalOil at March 09, 2015 09:59 AM (ZvKdv)

Can I cut you in on $85 million that I just need $5000 from you to claim?

I'm pretty sure this is the second largest component of the Nigerian GDP next to oil.

Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at March 09, 2015 10:01 AM (659DL)

94 The percentage of "granite" countertops that actually contain "granite" is maybe...

****

My mom always told me, "Don't take anything for granite!"

Posted by: Muldoon, a solid man at March 09, 2015 10:02 AM (NeFrd)

95 I always enjoy the shows where the homeowner insists on having the house wired for every conceivable TV/audio gadget, when you know damn well all that crap will be obsolete before the paint dries.

Ha! When I built my current home 12 years ago, I had CAT6 pulled to every room, just in time for WiFi to make it pointless.

Posted by: toby928(C) at March 09, 2015 10:02 AM (evdj2)

96 I love dancing naked around the house. Unfortunately with my looks and body I'll starve.

Posted by: wrg500

See if you can get a reality show. Some people will watch anything.

Posted by: Bruce at March 09, 2015 10:02 AM (8ikIW)

97 Its Monday it's always a DOOM type of day. This just reinforces it.

Posted by: Misanthropic Humanitarian at March 09, 2015 10:02 AM (028dR)

98 Its Monday it's always a DOOM type of day. This just reinforces it.

Posted by: Misanthropic Humanitarian at March 09, 2015 10:02 AM (028dR)

99
>>>"do what you love" is really shitty career advice

Fkn A right. Its up there with "go with the flow" and "follow your truth"

Posted by: Bigby's Brass Knuckles at March 09, 2015 10:03 AM (3ZtZW)

100 The operative word in my description of her was "young".

Which of course, is an alternate term for "stupid".
Posted by: IllTemperedCur at March 09, 2015 10:00 AM (SpnVI

stupid is so fitting a description for far too many people.

Posted by: Misanthropic Humanitarian at March 09, 2015 10:04 AM (028dR)

101 "The other day, I was talking to the young cashier at the grocery store
and mentioned that I was a recent transplant from CA to here in TX. She
looked at me like I had a third testicle growing out of my ear."

Here in CA, I get earnest young environmentalist canvassers at the door.

Typically it's some crap about "banning the dangerous practice of fracking, which will cause the Erf to spin out of its orbit".

I keep quoting at them the hard detailed numbers on exactly how much money their generation is on the hook for in order to pay Commiefornia's immense public sector pension liabilities, and suggest that their generation are going to be needing to use all available means of producing revenue (including the hated fracking), or else.

Guess what? That too produces the "third testicle growing out of the ear" look.

Posted by: torquewrench at March 09, 2015 10:04 AM (noWW6)

102 52
sadly, i have a relative who invested heavily in beanie babies"

Hmm. We related? I've similar foolishness in my family. One has been
paying for climate controlled storage of her "stash" for years now, and
assures everyone that "they're just about to go big time"

I can't even comprehend.

Posted by: anon a mouse at March 09, 2015 09:51 AM (/jpU

no......mine i believe stored them in her basement that flooded....i think they all grew mold.....

Posted by: phoenixgirl at March 09, 2015 10:04 AM (u8GsB)

103 Our first apartment had those huge pull blinds as a "wall" between the bedroom and living room, ffs.

I once had an appartment so small that it could only be seen with an electron microscope.

Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at March 09, 2015 10:04 AM (659DL)

104 Ha! When I built my current home 12 years ago, I had CAT6 pulled to every room, just in time for WiFi to make it pointless.

Posted by: toby928(C) at March 09, 2015 10:02 AM (evdj2)

You can't ever go wrong with CAT6!

Posted by: CAT6 Salesman at March 09, 2015 10:05 AM (ftVQq)

105
and yes, they can be liquidated.

Posted by: Blue Hen at March 09, 2015 09:58 AM (b7GF2)

Same goes for men.

Posted by: Zombie Nikolai Yezhov at March 09, 2015 10:05 AM (SpnVI)

106 One show had a dude who, halfway through the renovation, decided his "man cave" would be a
"couples cave."

Commonly known as the den, or family room.

Posted by: rickb223 at March 09, 2015 10:05 AM (tJipK)

107 Ha! When I built my current home 12 years ago, I had CAT6 pulled to every room, just in time for WiFi to make it pointless.
Posted by: toby928(C)

We have Fios, and theCAT5 connection to my desktop PC is still better than the various devices fighting for the attention of the wifi router. When and where possible, run it.

Posted by: Blue Hen at March 09, 2015 10:05 AM (b7GF2)

108 Guess what? That too produces the "third testicle growing out of the ear" look.

They have not yet learned that facts are stubborn things.

Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at March 09, 2015 10:07 AM (659DL)

109 One show had a dude who, halfway through the renovation, decided his "man cave" would be a
"couples cave."

Ahh, I bet HE didn't decide that.

Posted by: wrg500 at March 09, 2015 10:07 AM (S+el1)

110 My first apartment was so small, when I put the key in the door it would break the window.

Posted by: @JohnTant at March 09, 2015 10:07 AM (eytER)

111 "I always enjoy the shows where the homeowner insists on having the
house wired for every conceivable TV/audio gadget, when you know damn
well all that crap will be obsolete before the paint dries."

It is, however, not insanely costly to build in empty chases and conduits so that cabling can be fished later on, as required.

Flexibility.

Posted by: torquewrench at March 09, 2015 10:07 AM (noWW6)

112 87 "do what you love" is really shitty career advice

I know when I told my HS Guidance Counselor I wanted to be a Free Lance Gynecologist. He almost choked and kicked me out of his office. I went to a Private Christian School. Dad who sat on the Board of Regents was not too happy about that call, either.

Posted by: Misanthropic Humanitarian at March 09, 2015 10:08 AM (l1zOH)

113 My first apartment was so small, when I put the key in the door it would break the window.
Posted by: @JohnTant

Wow, you had a door? Was it the penthouse?

Posted by: Blue Hen at March 09, 2015 10:08 AM (b7GF2)

114 sadly, i have a relative who invested heavily in
beanie babies so she could put her daughters through college....let's
just say it didn't work out.......

Posted by: phoenixgirl at March 09, 2015 09:49 AM (u8GsB)

Heh. Wonder how many idiots are stocking up on My Little Pony crap these days.
Just by a superlotto ticket, it's a much faster way to lose your money.

Posted by: Tex Lovera at March 09, 2015 10:08 AM (wtvvX)

115 Posted by: physics geek at March 09, 2015 09:56 AM (MT22W)

Nevertheless, "do what you love" is bad career advice.

"Do what pays the bills- and if it's something you love, so much the better," is much better career advice.

I happen to love computer programming- and guess what I do for a living? But my eldest brother- he loves writing and got himself an English degree. What does he do for a living? He catalogs books for the city library (hey- it *is* a living, just not a great one).

OTOH, he still does what he loves- writes (in fact, he just signed with an agent to get a couple of kids books published). He just acknowledges that writing is unlikely ever to pay his bills.

Posted by: AllenG (DedicatedTenther) - TrueCon at March 09, 2015 10:08 AM (kff5f)

116 Ha! When I built my current home 12 years ago, I had CAT6 pulled to every room, just in time for WiFi to make it pointless.

---

I prefer Ethernet over the less secure wifi... So not pointless. Use cable whenever you can.

Posted by: @JohnTant at March 09, 2015 10:08 AM (eytER)

117 Have to disagree a bit about the student loans.

The government, colleges/universities and many diploma mills have set about creating the market for education by, get this, lying about it's benefits and the ease of credit to attain such.

This is/was not an accident. Students being young/immature were unable to accurately assess the truth of the claims and were led into thinking that they had to get more education or be left behind wage wise and they were aided an abetted by their parents.

Yes they made a deal and they shouldn't be allowed to just willy nilly disregard those responsibilities but there's a responsibility on the part of banks and the educational institutions to provide them with an education and useful counseling about same.

The later was not done. It's like making home owners reveal that the basement floods or the attic has mildew and the roof has a leak before the sale.

With the debt so high and burdening so many, some relief must be afforded in a rational manner or they will just start defaulting and if the numbers grow too large could bring down the whole system.

Granted the students should have done due diligence but then the lenders and teachers shouldn't have hidden the downsides.

Posted by: Bitter Clinger and All That at March 09, 2015 10:08 AM (zRby/)

118 The Boomers believed the lies of politicians.
That there is the fundamental problem: They do not want to admit they were taken in by the con.

I agree--you deserve ALL your money back that you paid in.

Two problems: (1)They refuse to admit that it was already spent on stuff they already benefited from; roads, military, etc. (2) They refuse to explain why I should be the one to pay them back--I'm not the one who cheated you!

But even my rock-ribbed conservative parents have gotten angry at me when I've suggested they will have to take a cut in the social security checks.

Posted by: RoyalOil at March 09, 2015 10:08 AM (ZvKdv)

119 107
I use the Wifi for web surfing. I hard wire when I work from home. Much faster.

Posted by: wrg500 at March 09, 2015 10:09 AM (S+el1)

120 Wow, you had a door?

Luxury! In my day, 27 of us lived in a hole in the ground.

Posted by: toby928(C) at March 09, 2015 10:09 AM (evdj2)

121 Luxury! In my day, 27 of us lived in a hole in the ground.

Posted by: toby928(C) at March 09, 2015 10:09 AM (evdj2)

You a dwarf or a hobbit?

Posted by: wrg500 at March 09, 2015 10:11 AM (S+el1)

122 "Do what pays the bills- and if it's something you love, so much the better," is much better career advice.

I happen to love computer programming- and guess what I do for a living?

Customer service.

Because free lance hitman and avenging angel is illegal.

Posted by: rickb223 at March 09, 2015 10:12 AM (tJipK)

123 Wow, you had a door? Luxury! In my day, 27 of us lived in a hole in the ground.
Posted by: toby928(C)

We should apologize for what I did to you and your platoon o' roomates.

Posted by: Moron that pissed in a hole at March 09, 2015 10:12 AM (b7GF2)

124 The problem with SS is NOT people getting back what they paid in. It was the massive explosion in SSDI after the idiot politicians decided to relax the standards to include back pain, etc. There is massive undeserved folks claiming SSDI. You've got SS payments and all the multitude of safety-net money ( rent asst) going to people who have NEVER paid in, or maybe paid in a few years before going on the dole.

Posted by: Yip at March 09, 2015 10:12 AM (84SRe)

125 I've suggested they will have to take a cut in the social security checks"

And they vote. Younger gens, not so much.

In my day, 27 of us lived in a hole in the ground"

So you're a hobbit?

Posted by: anon a mouse at March 09, 2015 10:13 AM (/jpU8)

126 Luxury! In my day, 27 of us lived in a hole in the ground.

Posted by: toby928(C) at March 09, 2015 10:09 AM (evdj2)

There's always......

THE BARREL

Posted by: Tex Lovera at March 09, 2015 10:13 AM (wtvvX)

127
One show had a dude who, halfway through the renovation, decided his "man cave" would be a
"couples cave."

Ahh, I bet HE didn't decide that.

Posted by: wrg500 at March 09, 2015 10:07 AM (S+el1)

Sure "he" did. He weighed the comfort of the man cave against that sex that he was gonna have with his wife ever again......

Posted by: IllTemperedCur at March 09, 2015 10:13 AM (SpnVI)

128 Luxury! In my day, 27 of us lived in a hole in the ground.
Posted by: toby928(C) at March 09, 2015 10:09 AM (evdj2)

We lived in a pond!

(The Morons are among the biggest group of Monty Python geeks in the world.)

Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at March 09, 2015 10:14 AM (659DL)

129 There is massive undeserved folks claiming SSDI"

Ever glimpse daytime TV ads?

Posted by: anon a mouse at March 09, 2015 10:14 AM (/jpU8)

130 Granted the students should have done due diligence but then the lenders and teachers shouldn't have hidden the downsides.

Posted by: Bitter Clinger and All That at March 09, 2015 10:08 AM (zRby/)

The problem from the "academic" side of things is that the faculty and administrators of most colleges/universities have no clue what the actual value of a current college education is.

Do you really think a "womyn's studies" or "African amerikkan studies" professor understands why people with degrees in their discipline don't get good jobs?

The people in the colleges believe that everyone should have a college education and somehow that will result in everyone having an upper-middle class income.

How often do politicians, both right and left, talk about "education" as the solution to every societal ill - be it unemployment, poverty, racism, etc.?

The saddest thing is they actually believe it.

Which is why the most menial jobs now require a college education to get an interview. Because we are requiring ridiculous "credentials" for everything.

For instance, teaching in many states requires a masters degree. You need a masters degree in education (which is itself absurd - there is no such discipline as "education") to teach first grade. Not a degree in math to teach math. A masters in "education" to teach math.

Many police forces and fire departments pay a wage supplement if you have a 4 year degree. Why? How does a degree in poly sci help you fight fires better?

Silliness abounds.

Posted by: monkeytoe at March 09, 2015 10:14 AM (3ZtZW)

131 Sure "he" did. He weighed the comfort of the man cave against that sex that he was gonna have with his wife ever again......

What is this "sex" and "wife" you speak of?

Posted by: wrg500 at March 09, 2015 10:15 AM (S+el1)

132 The problem with SS is NOT people getting back what they paid in. It was the massive explosion in SSDI after the idiot politicians decided to relax the standards to include back pain, etc. There is massive undeserved folks claiming SSDI. You've got SS payments and all the multitude of safety-net money ( rent asst) going to people who have NEVER paid in, or maybe paid in a few years before going on the dole.
Posted by: Yip

As I understand it, all current beneficiaries are getting far more than they ever put in. That's the biggest segment of use, and the biggest drain. SSDI being claimed by people with little or no work record ia a far more dramatic drain, but that number is smaller. With ID fraud and illegal aliens, we're already experiencing tax refunds and SS benefits going to people who paid little or no Federal or SS tax.

Posted by: Moron that pissed in a hole at March 09, 2015 10:15 AM (b7GF2)

133 Sure "he" did. He weighed the comfort of the man cave against that sex that he was gonna have with his wife ever again......

Would have been better off with the man cave. She couldn't have cut off sex. As long as she didn't find out where he was getting it.

Posted by: rickb223 at March 09, 2015 10:15 AM (tJipK)

134 How does a degree in poly sci help you fight fires better?"

Helps to understand it's motivation?

/

Posted by: anon a mouse at March 09, 2015 10:15 AM (/jpU8)

135 sex that he was gonna have with his wife

Unclear on the concept...

(I keed, Mrs. Circa. I keed.)

Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at March 09, 2015 10:16 AM (659DL)

136
Granted the students should have done due diligence but then the lenders and teachers shouldn't have hidden the downsides.
Posted by: Bitter Clinger and All That at March 09, 2015 10:08

There is enough blame to go around, starting with the parents of the Special Ones. The middle schools and high schools which pushed outcome based education and that a college degree rather than a Vo-Tech degree or Military Service was so much better. Not everyone is cut out for college or a college degree. THere is nothing wrong with being a blue collar worker with a Vo-Tech degree and certainly nothing wrong with being in the Armed Forces.

Colleges are full of Profs, Asst Profs, TAs who haven't accomplished shit in the real world. Those that do, those that can't teach, those that can't teach write books.

Posted by: Misanthropic Humanitarian at March 09, 2015 10:16 AM (l1zOH)

137 All of these kids defaulting or getting ready to default on college loans have been sold a lie their entire lives. From day one they have been exposed to the "college degree at all costs" meme.

This has come from their parents, teachers, career counselors, State and federal Governments and all of their peers. Over and over they have been told they must get a college degree, any degree or their adult working life will be wasted and they will be paid less than they "deserve."

There is blame to be spread all over the Country on the student loan mess. I do have some sympathy for them.

Posted by: The Great White Scotsman at March 09, 2015 10:16 AM (4oSLk)

138 <delivered in best Rodney Dangerfield voice>

Lemme tell ya, growin' up my neghborhood was pretty tough, lemme tell ya.

Our house didn't have a front door; it had a lid!!

Posted by: Tex Lovera at March 09, 2015 10:16 AM (wtvvX)

139 Would have been better off with the man cave. She couldn't have cut off sex. As long as she didn't find out where he was getting it.
Posted by: rickb223 at March 09, 2015 10:15 AM (tJipK)

If I was her and found out - *SNIP*

Posted by: Lorena Bobbit at March 09, 2015 10:17 AM (+hB3s)

140
What is this "sex" and "wife" you speak of?
Posted by: wrg500 at March 09, 2015 10:15 AM (S+el1

That is a question a lot of us married men have asked. And are still waiting for the answer.

Posted by: Misanthropic Humanitarian at March 09, 2015 10:17 AM (l1zOH)

141 The problem with SS is NOT people getting back what they paid in. It was the massive explosion in SSDI after the idiot politicians decided to relax the standards to include back pain, etc. There is massive undeserved folks claiming SSDI. You've got SS payments and all the multitude of safety-net money ( rent asst) going to people who have NEVER paid in, or maybe paid in a few years before going on the dole.

Posted by: Yip at March 09, 2015 10:12 AM (84SRe)

While SSDI fraud is a huge problem - regular SS is also a problem. Solving SSDI fraud would not salvage the system. People are still going to have to take a haircut.

But, I would love to reform SSDI so only people with true disabilities get any help, and then a sliding scale (i.e., if you can do "x" work, you get a stipend - you don't get paid to sit around doing nothing).

Posted by: monkeytoe at March 09, 2015 10:17 AM (3ZtZW)

142 Many police forces and fire departments pay a wage supplement if you have a 4 year degree.

Many departments require it.

Posted by: rickb223 at March 09, 2015 10:17 AM (tJipK)

143
What is this "sex" and "wife" you speak of?

I had lots of sex when I was married. Wife was really pissed when she found out.

Posted by: Bandersnatch at March 09, 2015 10:18 AM (JtwS4)

144 That is a question a lot of us married men have asked. And are still waiting for the answer.

Posted by: Misanthropic Humanitarian at March 09, 2015 10:17 AM (l1zOH)

True dat. <sigh>

Posted by: Tex Lovera at March 09, 2015 10:18 AM (wtvvX)

145 My 20 year retirement plan mainly consists of renting to cash-strapped seniors living on Social Security and Millennial dummies whose atrocious credit doesn't allow them to qualify for a mortgage. I also see a wide open market for builders to start cranking out smaller, yet still high-end affordable housing. People are more apt to downsize their living space when they feel like they're still adding value to their quality of life.

Posted by: Ummberto Echo at March 09, 2015 10:18 AM (dKFev)

146 You can't cheat an honest man.

There are people looking for a "deal" on both sides of a scam.

It it looks too good to be true and you take the deal then you were out to screw the guy who turned out screwed you.

Every scam has the element of ill-gotten gains for the mark and the con men play the role of the honest rube.

That's all you need to know about that.

Oh, and anyone who thinks that the Euros problems won't matter much here should think about all the money banks here have sunk in currency derivatives or credit swaps (I think that's the terms.) Where they're essentially gambling that a unit of money won't go down and if it does they'll back it up with someone else's money. The problem is when the entire system takes a hit. Then there's no money to shuffle around and the system collapses. Sort of like what happened in '29 when everybody was playing the market on margin and then people started having to come up with the cash. Or our more recent housing price collapse.

(I may have the details slightly wrong and Monty or someone should correct me but I have the general idea right and it's a Damoclean sword hanging over us every day.)

Posted by: Bitter Clinger and All That at March 09, 2015 10:18 AM (zRby/)

147 That is a question a lot of us married men have asked."

Brings to mind the old saw about why brides are always smiling...

It's when they realized they've given their last, er, oral gratification or something....

*ducks*

Posted by: anon a mouse at March 09, 2015 10:19 AM (/jpU8)

148 Many departments require it.

Posted by: rickb223 at March 09, 2015 10:17 AM (tJipK)

Which is absurd.

Posted by: monkeytoe at March 09, 2015 10:19 AM (3ZtZW)

149
>>>My first apartment was so small, when I put the key in the door it would break the window.

Heh mine was above a pizza shop
the floors were exceedingly hot and I always smelled like Italian food

Posted by: Bigby's Brass Knuckles at March 09, 2015 10:20 AM (3ZtZW)

150 Nice, AllenG!
"he still does what he loves- writes (in fact, he just signed with an agent to get a couple of kids books published)"

Posted by: m at March 09, 2015 10:20 AM (rn/hC)

151 Many police forces and fire departments pay a wage supplement if you have a 4 year degree. Many departments require it.
Posted by: rickb223
More than 25 years ago, basic english and math ourses at college were full of cops and nurses. The few cops without a degree were getting one, or getting their Masters, and nurses were upgrading from the two year associates degree to Bachelos and Masters in nursing. Teachers too get a pay bump when they go back for a masters.

Posted by: Moron that pissed in a hole at March 09, 2015 10:20 AM (b7GF2)

152 " The middle schools and high schools which pushed outcome based education and that a college degree rather than a Vo-Tech degree or Military Service was so much better. "

Louisiana is doing an interesting program right now to get kids to vo-tech schools.s They have a graduated scholarship program based on ACT scores. Get a 17, they'll give you money for vocational school, 18, community college, 20, 4 year university.

It's the first I've heard of a state giving vocational school scholarships, and I think it's a pretty good idea since vocational school can be really expensive too.

Posted by: Lauren at March 09, 2015 10:20 AM (MYCIw)

153 It's when they realized they've given their last, er, oral gratification or something....

The sex life dies at the words "I do"

Posted by: wrg500 at March 09, 2015 10:20 AM (S+el1)

154 When Obama reads this in the news, won't he be surprised:

http://tinyurl.com/l9qt5az

Egypt takes delivery of Russian missile system.

Kerry, "Unprecedented foreign policy success."

Hillary, "I laid the foundation for all of this!"

Posted by: LoneStarHeeb at March 09, 2015 10:21 AM (BZAd3)

155 I agree with AllenG. In college, do what you love IF it will bring home a decent paycheck. (Unless you don't mind being poor.)

This is America, you can always pursue your true love on the side while making a decent living. Chances are your true love may not even need a college degree.

I loved what I did in college and grad school (ChemE) and it happened to be something that paid a lot. I got into another field after grad school which I love, love even more, and it happens to be a field that pays quite well. Which was fortunate for me.

My advice to my baby bro who has a masters in computer science and was wondering if he even liked it was to do well at his computer job and remember that a job can be just a job. It doesn't need to be a source of fulfillment as there are other things to life. So do well at your job and make yourself valuable for now. You're still young and have time to discover what you're really into.

Posted by: chique d'afrique (the artist formerly known as african chick) at March 09, 2015 10:21 AM (shFKH)

156 The problem with SS is NOT people getting back what they paid in.

You never "paid in." You were taxed, and that money was paid out to people who were not working.

I have no idea why that's so fucking hard for people to understand.

Posted by: HR needs cheeseburgers at March 09, 2015 10:22 AM (/kI1Q)

157 To us it was the easiest decision of all time, but to a lot of our cohorts the idea of moving to the country is the same as suicide.

Not literal suicide but when your rural neighbors find out you are from Austin you may be asked to squeal like a pig.

Posted by: SpongeBobSaget at March 09, 2015 10:22 AM (zauWW)

158 My first apartment was a Mr. Spock lunchbox. I slept in the Thermos.

Posted by: Muldoon, a solid man at March 09, 2015 10:22 AM (NeFrd)

159 I got into another field after grad school which I love, love even more, and it happens to be a field that pays quite well.

I know, but we can't all run guns for Gordon Yee.

Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at March 09, 2015 10:23 AM (659DL)

160 I'm just considering the fact that my "Welcome to WalMart" retirement plan presupposes the continued existence of WalMart.

Hmm...

Posted by: Cloyd Freud, Unemployed at March 09, 2015 10:23 AM (lG2E3)

161 student loans, and Greece?

"With the debt so high and burdening so many [students/Greeks], some relief must be afforded in a rational manner or they will just start defaulting and if the numbers grow too large could bring down the whole system.

Granted the students/Greeks should have done due diligence but then the lenders and teachers shouldn't have hidden the downsides."

Posted by: m at March 09, 2015 10:23 AM (rn/hC)

162 I got into another field after grad school which I love, love even more, and it happens to be a field that pays quite well.

Mule for a cartel?

Posted by: wrg500 at March 09, 2015 10:24 AM (S+el1)

163 I'm more than happy to screw either the banks or, ideally, the
universities on this one. And none of that 'but the honor of your
agreement' shit - neither banks nor universities care much about that.
========
Exactly.

It's a business deal. And businesses break their deals with you all the time.

You only have a moral obligation to pay back friends and family.

Once interest, fees and late charges enter into the deal, morals leave.

I didn't say the consequences leave, you still have to deal with those.

Posted by: RoyalOil at March 09, 2015 10:24 AM (ZvKdv)

164 I have no idea why that's so fucking hard for people to understand.

See also "free health care."

Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at March 09, 2015 10:24 AM (659DL)

165 Stuff is hard to understand when you are stupid.

Posted by: steevy at March 09, 2015 10:25 AM (KETbL)

166 "So, if you can't even get conservatives to see reality when it comes to
SS, how do you imagine you are going to low-information voters and
liberals to understand and agree?
"

Here what I tell the typcal LIV if I can even get them to even think about the coming SS crisis they know nothing about:

I have been paying in around 35 years, probably around another 15.to go I'm currently and probably will be self employed in the future so I am paying twice what most people pay. It really hurts at tax time. And know what? If offered an opt out today, even at this late date, the govt could keep every single penny I have paid without any benefits if I just didn't have to pay another cent into their ponzi scheme. I am dead serious and would jump at the opportunity since I think there is a decent chance I'll get screwed in the end anyway if I have any assets when I stop working.

That usually get their attention.

Posted by: George Orwell de Leon at March 09, 2015 10:25 AM (1BQGO)

167 I will repeat what I've said many times. I am completely opposed to making student loans dischargeable in bankruptcy. I will be the first one to file when they become so. Hypocrite? Well, let me repeat this as well. Graft. I want less of it or in on it. Since less is off the table, gimme gimme gimme.

There is no giant pile of money sitting in a vault somewhere.

I have been called a liar to my face for attempting to explain to people that the US government does not have a bank account with that person's name on it in which sits that person's Social Security funds. People honestly believe that there is a lock box and that there are separate accounts and it's not all a filing cabinet full of IOU kiss kiss from the US government to itself. Liar liar liar liar.

This is going to end well.

Posted by: alexthechick - LIV ahoy! at March 09, 2015 10:25 AM (mf5HN)

168 There's a lot of cheap houses out there if you know where to look. There in small towns in rural Oklahoma, Kansas, Nebraska, S Dakota, and Eastern Montana. Of course job opportunities are limited, and there aren't any Starbucks (I consider that a good thing). Not much crime either. If you're real lucky the mayor will be a dog that likes to sleep in the middle of mainstreet.

Posted by: fairweatherbill greenhouse contractor at March 09, 2015 10:26 AM (cNpuB)

169 Stuff is hard to understand when you are stupid.

Funny 'cause it's true.

Posted by: toby928(C) at March 09, 2015 10:26 AM (evdj2)

170 It's hard to understand something when there's money involved in your continued failure at understanding it.

Posted by: Ummberto Echo at March 09, 2015 10:27 AM (dKFev)

171 I got into another field after grad school which I love, love even more, and it happens to be a field that pays quite well.

I know, but we can't all run guns for Gordon Yee.
Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at March 09, 2015 10:23 AM (659DL)

I got into another field after grad school which I love, love even more, and it happens to be a field that pays quite well.

Mule for a cartel?
Posted by: wrg500 at March 09, 2015 10:24 AM (S+el1)

LOL, I love you guys.

Posted by: chique d'afrique (the artist formerly known as african chick) at March 09, 2015 10:27 AM (shFKH)

172 I can understand wanting to get a degree as a cop for the pay bump if you wanted it.

Never understood why you needed a degree to bust someone with a 3rd grade education.

Posted by: rickb223 at March 09, 2015 10:27 AM (tJipK)

173 There's a lot of cheap houses out there if you know where to look.

Detroit comes to mind.

Posted by: wrg500 at March 09, 2015 10:28 AM (S+el1)

174 "Ha! When I built my current home 12 years ago, I had CAT6 pulled to every room, just in time for WiFi to make it pointless. "
Posted by: toby928(C)

22 years ago when I built my current house, we paid and extra $150,000 to have the entire place wired with AMP Smart House components. Theoretically, any switch in the house could be programmed to activate any number of circuits.

This was back when 150K was a lot of money.

Of course, it never worked.

Then AMP sold out to Tyco and they promptly discontinued the line.

So, I've been in a multi-year rewiring program as we redecorate to change back to regular circuits.

And yes, it has hurt.

Posted by: jwest at March 09, 2015 10:28 AM (9ZZd+)

175 That usually get their attention.

Posted by: George Orwell de Leon at March 09, 2015 10:25 AM (1BQGO)

****

Wow, you must have some real overachieving LIV's where you live.

Posted by: Muldoon, a solid man at March 09, 2015 10:29 AM (NeFrd)

176 Stuff is hard to understand when you are stupid.

"Sometimes you have to wreck the truck to get the insurance money to make the truck payment." --Larry the Cable Guy

Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at March 09, 2015 10:30 AM (659DL)

177 Good morning, fapperoonies. I f*cking hate daylight savings time. Thatisall.

Posted by: Insomniac at March 09, 2015 10:31 AM (2Ojst)

178 There's a lot of cheap houses out there if you know where to look. There in small towns in rural Oklahoma, Kansas, Nebraska, S Dakota, and Eastern Montana. Of course job opportunities are limited, and there aren't any Starbucks (I consider that a good thing). Not much crime either. If you're real lucky the mayor will be a dog that likes to sleep in the middle of mainstreet.
Posted by: fairweatherbill greenhouse contractor

The reason some towns are like that is because mandates from far away decree what spending must be done. It's why NY and PA are becoming taxed shitholes, because of what the urban centers vote.Resulting in local schools closing and towns desperate for income. All this on top of the burden of being waytheHellout there.

Now for a telecommuter, such places should be a draw.

Posted by: Moron that pissed in a hole at March 09, 2015 10:31 AM (b7GF2)

179 All of us down at the Brattleboro Women's Reproductive Health Choice
Clinicwant to thankPresident Obama fpr solving that mess in Iran that Bush created. If we make friends with them they will not bother us and just give Natenyahoo clown (Bush friend and troublemaker to persons of muslim color) problems and not us. That way we can show them we don't like Bush either and they will love our black president too!!!

Posted by: Mary Clogginstein from Brattleboro, VT at March 09, 2015 10:31 AM (Sd++4)

180 @156 I'm well aware that SS is a freakin tax. I was using the term others used. Of course it is a tax and it's been spent right away. And, most people know this. I'd wager that anyone under 60 believing they've been paying into a lock box or a big fund is illiterate. The whole pay in thing was laughable as early as the 1960's.

There are a LOT of finance/economics illiterate folks. And I'd argue, that adding back pain to SSDI, which only happened a few years ago, made the SSDI roles explode.... and that's why back pain was never on there before... unless they could show a broke back... because a LOT of back pain will never show up on MRI's or Xrays, etc. Free ticket to easy money. And everyone wins 'cept the taxpayer.

Posted by: Yip at March 09, 2015 10:33 AM (84SRe)

181 Debtor's prison. Ah yes. Supposed to be illegal, but alive and well for people with unpaid tickets/fines and for men who can't pay child support.

Posted by: Insomniac at March 09, 2015 10:33 AM (2Ojst)

182 The reason some towns are like that...

Pro tip: Don't live in town.

Posted by: SpongeBobSaget at March 09, 2015 10:33 AM (zauWW)

183 I will repeat what I've said many times. I am completely opposed to making student loans dischargeable in bankruptcy. I will be the first one to file when they become so. Hypocrite? Well, let me repeat this as well. Graft. I want less of it or in on it. Since less is off the table, gimme gimme gimme.

Posted by: alexthechick - LIV ahoy! at March 09, 2015 10:25 AM (mf5HN)

It is not hypocritical to be against the rules put in place but take advantage of them if you can.

I have this argument all the time with people. for instance, I have a rental property and I have, on occasion, accepted Section 8 tenants. I am for the most part against Section 8 (my observation was that they lived better than me - they had newer car, a bigger flat screen tv, etc.), but took the money from the program.

That doesn't make one a hypocrite. Being a hypocrite is arguing for something that you don't believe (i.e., being a Priest when you are an atheist). Being against a program but using it while it legally exists is not hypocritical. I can see why the program is bad for society, is bad policy, is inefficient, etc., but still utilize it as long as I have the legal right to do so.

Posted by: monkeytoe at March 09, 2015 10:33 AM (3ZtZW)

184 Bush did it too!

- The Progressive Call to War

Posted by: Fritz at March 09, 2015 10:33 AM (UzPAd)

185
>>>Funny 'cause it's true.

What's funny?

Posted by: Bigby's Brass Knuckles at March 09, 2015 10:34 AM (3ZtZW)

186 sted by: Yip at March 09, 2015 10:12 AM (84SRe)
_____________________

A big part of the problem is a program administered by the Social Security Administration called SSI (Supplemental Security Income). It's basically a federal welfare program, but of course we can't call it that, because that might hurt some moocher's feelings.

People who have not paid a single dime into SS can apply for and get monthly SSI payments. It is supposed to be for people who are "disabled" but who don't qualify for SSDI. So, for example, drug addicts who've never held a job in their lives can't qualify for SSDI, but they do qualify for SSI.

It's a multi-billion-dollar a year SS rip-off that most people have never even heard of.

Posted by: TrivialPursuer at March 09, 2015 10:35 AM (lmdHn)

187 "Wow, you must have some real overachieving LIV's where you live."

Posted by: Muldoon, a solid man at March 09, 2015 10:29 AM (NeFrd)

They are the high-end LIV's who are even willing to discuss the subject of SS, entitlements etc... So they can be persuaded or at least startled if you can get them away from their smartphones. But they are a small minority of the LIV's.

Posted by: George Orwell de Leon at March 09, 2015 10:36 AM (1BQGO)

188 The reason Ferguson is using traffic tickets to finance the city?

There is no tax base. All the peoples be living in government housing that is not taxable, so where do you go for money to run the city?

Tickets.

Posted by: Nip Sip at March 09, 2015 10:36 AM (0FSuD)

189 Back in 1904 my wife and I paid $500,000 (and that was a lot of money back then) to have that newfangled telephone thingy installed in every room of our house. Turns out that was money down the drain. We never felt the blow to our pocketbooks though because my work as a Ninja (TM) augmented our bank account quite nicely.

Posted by: Muldoon, a solid internet Ninja at March 09, 2015 10:37 AM (NeFrd)

190 A big part of the problem is a program administered by the Social Security Administration called SSI (Supplemental Security Income). It's basically a federal welfare program, but of course we can't call it that, because that might hurt some moocher's feelings. People who have not paid a single dime into SS can apply for and get monthly SSI payments. It is supposed to be for people who are "disabled" but who don't qualify for SSDI. So, for example, drug addicts who've never held a job in their lives can't qualify for SSDI, but they do qualify for SSI. It's a multi-billion-dollar a year SS rip-off that most people have never even heard of.
Posted by: TrivialPursuer

All of SS is an entitlement/welfare program. No one has a "right" to taxes paid in, survivors don't get an absolute right, and SS gets to decide who gets what, and when.

Posted by: Moron that pissed in a hole at March 09, 2015 10:37 AM (b7GF2)

191 alex the chick

if they are going to do it....take advantage of it....it's like the child tax credit.....i took advantage of that until i couldn't.....i take advantage of the home loan interest credit....i take advantage of every business write off i can.....

Posted by: phoenixgirl at March 09, 2015 10:37 AM (u8GsB)

192 Posted by: Mary Clogginstein from Brattleboro, VT at March 09, 2015 10:31 AM (Sd++4)

i just wish Mary would share the dope she smokes. It must be good stuff

Posted by: Nip Sip at March 09, 2015 10:38 AM (0FSuD)

193 Mornin', 'rons

So, the NY Slimes cropped the Bushes out of the Selma pics.

How Soviet of them.

Welcome to the USSA.

Posted by: Citizen X at March 09, 2015 10:38 AM (7ObY1)

194 These doom postings should include the song by metallica, "Sad but true" as a youtube embed. Everytime I see these, it's the first thing I think of...

Posted by: Patrick in Michigan at March 09, 2015 10:38 AM (EyyqM)

195 >>>Funny 'cause it's true.

What's funny?

****

I don't understand.

Posted by: Muldoon, a solid man at March 09, 2015 10:38 AM (NeFrd)

196
>>>>There's a lot of cheap houses out there if you know where to look.

Depends on what you're looking for, what you require in a living situation. Which changes with age, of course. Older I get, the more I just want to live next door to a bakery LOL

Posted by: Bigby's Brass Knuckles at March 09, 2015 10:39 AM (3ZtZW)

197 That Ferguson story does an excellent job of telling one side of the story. What's the other side? What's the truth?

Secondly, retirement. Everything requires maintenance. Something I always forget. You buy a house. Twenty years later you need a new roof. You probably are going to be too old and frail to remove the old roof, and put a new one on yourself. The cost of the new roof will be nearly equal to the selling price of the house twenty years previous. Do you have the money for that? Most of us won't. Your car needs maintenance, your furnace, your plumbing. Your roof leaks during an especially brutal winter, and you need to make repairs. The sewer line backs up, leaks. . and one day, because you had an unexpected furnace repair, your vehicle registration and driver's license expires. Now someone has to drive you to the grocery every week or once a month. It doesn't get better, it gets worse.

Property taxes go up. Then we get a new federal administration that recalculates the cost of living allowance for Social Security recipients. Instead of keeping up, you are falling behind. Your health starts to deteriorate, probably why you retired in the first place.

You get a federal administration that claims they are going to 'fix' health care. and they really do 'fix' it making getting sick a death sentence.

Posted by: G. Rodger Aimes at March 09, 2015 10:39 AM (q/aTs)

198 The reason Ferguson is using traffic tickets to finance the city?There is no tax base. All the peoples be living in government housing that is not taxable, so where do you go for money to run the city?Tickets

Small towns have done this for years with speed traps. There's miserable little hamlets like Ellendale that drop the speed from 35 to 15 with the one cop they have literally sitting next to the sign. If the town isn't growing, and government costs won't hold still, the itch starts.

Posted by: Moron that pissed in a hole at March 09, 2015 10:40 AM (b7GF2)

199 There's a lot of cheap houses out there if you know where to look.

Detroit comes to mind.

Posted by: wrg500 at March 09, 2015 10:28 AM

But supposing I want a picket fence and hostas and not concertina wire and claymores?

Posted by: RedMindBlueState at March 09, 2015 10:40 AM (h4vJk)

200

Posted by: RedMindBlueState at March 09, 2015 10:41 AM (h4vJk)

201 Don't say it, Barrel....Don't. Say. It.

Posted by: RedMindBlueState at March 09, 2015 10:41 AM (h4vJk)

202 Best advice I ever received: Live on half of what you earn. 20% will go to the government in the form of taxes, 10% goes to church/charity, and 20% gets saved. You can spend the other 50%.

Posted by: Vashta Nerada at March 09, 2015 10:42 AM (79zi+)

203 Gotta disagree about student loans.

The banks made a bad loan. And, they want government to guarantee the students can't get out of it through bankruptcy.

Monty - you of all people should see this scam for what it is. A government giveaway to banking.

Stop the fucking guarantees of student loan repaymernt, and voila! The loans stop happening.. tuition plummets to reasonable levels. This has big government written all over it.. and the students are the pawns.

Posted by: Chi-Town Jerry at March 09, 2015 10:42 AM (so+oy)

204 ""granite
countertops"for sale!!

Posted by: Lace Wig Emporium at March 09, 2015 10:42 AM (wQ7l/)

205 Posted by: RedMindBlueState at March 09, 2015 10:40 AM (h4vJk)

You cocktease.

Posted by: The Barrel at March 09, 2015 10:42 AM (2Ojst)

206 Curses! Foiled again.

Posted by: The Barrel at March 09, 2015 10:42 AM (JtwS4)

207 "200

Posted by: RedMindBlueState at March 09, 2015 10:41 AM (h4vJk)"

Wow! That was deep, man.

Posted by: Stoner McBong at March 09, 2015 10:43 AM (1BQGO)

208 RMBS- fast save.

Okay, 'rons & 'ettes, I have a dilemma.

I just got a recruiting letter from Amazon.

I'm highly conflicted about seeing if it would go anywhere. I've been at current employer for right at 6 mos- and I tend to like being at a place for a year or more.

But Amazon.

Posted by: AllenG (DedicatedTenther) - TrueCon at March 09, 2015 10:44 AM (kff5f)

209 Wow! That was deep, man.
Posted by: Stoner McBong at March 09, 2015 10:43 AM

So's the Barrel.

Posted by: RedMindBlueState at March 09, 2015 10:44 AM (h4vJk)

210 SSI also provides payments to families with very sick children. We had it when our first son was born, and it was a nightmare because his insurance was tied to it and if we made too much one month he'd lose his coverage. We had private insurance as well, but he had 5 surgeries and was on medication that retails for abotu 12K /month.

It was really stressful, but in the end they decided that despite the fact that none of his issues had gone away, he no longer qualified. Honestly,at that point it was a relief not to have the government so involved in our lives, so we didn't fight it, but I always thought it was pretty funny that they cut off a very sick child's SSI, but are happy to give it to a drug addict for the rest of eternity.

Posted by: Lauren at March 09, 2015 10:44 AM (MYCIw)

211 "Buying Alaska. I like some of the off the grid stuff."

I love it and the others....Hawaii, Bayou, etc. Interesting as Hell to see what is for sale and what it's going for. Surprising to see what some places do or don't get.

Posted by: 401K at March 09, 2015 10:45 AM (vvS6Q)

212 Small towns have done this for years with speed
traps. There's miserable little hamlets like Ellendale that drop the
speed from 35 to 15 with the one cop they have literally sitting next to
the sign. If the town isn't growing, and government costs won't hold
still, the itch starts.

Posted by: Moron that pissed in a hole at March 09, 2015 10:40 AM (b7GF2)

So true. I watched a local cop in Cimmaron NM, home of Philmont Scout Ranch write tickets. Town is a dump. So they have a speed trap. Goes from 45 to 15.
You ever driven 15? Mostly old guys heading to Taos that get caught. Cops are total assholes.

Posted by: Nip Sip at March 09, 2015 10:45 AM (0FSuD)

213 >>Stop the fucking guarantees of student loan repaymernt, and voila! The
loans stop happening.. tuition plummets to reasonable levels. This has
big government written all over it.. and the students are the pawns.

I also like Instapundit's idea of having the student's university underwrite the loans. You would see elimination of b.s. degrees with no job potential disappear super fast. Make the universities a stakeholder in the student's success - right now, they can profit from offering any ol' useless "studies" degree.

Posted by: Lizzy at March 09, 2015 10:45 AM (bdqzU)

214 All of SS is an entitlement/welfare program. No one has a "right" to taxes paid in, survivors don't get an absolute right, and SS gets to decide who gets what, and when.
_________________________

I'm aware that the SCOTUS has said no one has a "right" to these entitlements, but the fact is that millions of working people have been forced to pay large amounts of their lifetime income into SS, while many other people have not paid a single dime -- and yet they are entitled to claim payments from the same fund.

So part of SS is outright welfare, and part of it is not, but all of it is disguised as something is it not. And that is the problem.

Posted by: TrivialPursuer at March 09, 2015 10:45 AM (lmdHn)

215 Stop the fucking guarantees of student loan repaymernt, and voila! The loans stop happening.. tuition plummets to reasonable levels.

Yeah. That.

The problem with Student loans- the actual "disease" as opposed to the mere symptoms- is the government guarantee/subsidy. Get government out of the Student Loan business. Make it just like every other loan.

Posted by: AllenG (DedicatedTenther) - TrueCon at March 09, 2015 10:45 AM (kff5f)

216 But Amazon.

You know Amazons kill their men after breeding? You may want to consider that.

Posted by: wrg500 at March 09, 2015 10:45 AM (S+el1)

217 Barrel

Posted by: Tex Lovera at March 09, 2015 10:46 AM (wtvvX)

218 "It was really stressful, but in the end they decided that despite the fact that none of his issues had gone away, he no longer qualified."

All is proceeding as I have foreseen.

Posted by: Franz Kafka at March 09, 2015 10:46 AM (lG2E3)

219 It's the first I've heard of a state giving
vocational school scholarships, and I think it's a pretty good idea
since vocational school can be really expensive too.

Posted by: Lauren at March 09, 2015 10:20 AM (MYCIw)

Fantastic idea, and most vocational skill sets are transportable to any part of the country and immediately salable!

Posted by: Hrothgar at March 09, 2015 10:46 AM (ftVQq)

220 The welfare state was always a game of musical chairs, and it may be Millennials who are left standing when the music stops. Or they may wise up and just refuse to play the game any more.

I've said it before, I'll say it again - us GenXers are the ones who are terminally boned.

Posted by: steveegg at March 09, 2015 10:46 AM (cL79m)

221 Monty - you of all people should see this scam for what it is. A government giveaway to banking.

-------

When you default on a loan, you're not screwing the bank -- you're screwing *other depositors*, whose money is being used to generate the loan. And in the case of a government-guaranteed loan, you're screwing *taxpayers* (i.e., me, among others). Deliberately defaulting on a loan is unethical and immoral; there's no positive way to spin it.

A loan is a moral as well as a financial obligation because you're borrowing from *other human beings*, not some faceless, soulless edifice. When you fail to repay that loan, that means the money is lost to someone else. One or many *persons*, who entered into the loan contract in good faith.

Adherence to contract law is -- at least I thought -- a basic principle of free-market economics. Was I wrong?

Like you, I dislike government intervention in the process; I could hardly be clearer in my distaste for governmental fuckery. But that doesn't extend to welshing on debts just because you don't want to pay.

Posted by: Monty at March 09, 2015 10:47 AM (jpJHO)

222 The banks made a bad loan. And, they want government to guarantee the students can't get out of it through bankruptcy.Monty - you of all people should see this scam for what it is. A government giveaway to banking.Stop the fucking guarantees of student loan repaymernt, and voila! The loans stop happening.. tuition plummets to reasonable levels. This has big government written all over it.. and the students are the pawns.
Posted by: Chi-Town Jerry

If the banks refused junio, then everyone including the government howls.

If I want to buy a car, and the Yugo dealer tells the world that this things da bomb, then the bank and I were taken in by the dealer. Bu that's a case where the supplier made a false claim.
If the University has a communications department, but the placement data and starting salaries for grads are simply not available, who is at fault for applying for and getting a loan for a degree that turns out to be useless? The bank? Me? The university? Anyone who rails agaist eeeeeevvvvviiiiillll bankers?

Posted by: Blue Hen at March 09, 2015 10:47 AM (b7GF2)

223 Finally, a DOOM! that didn't make me want to self-immolate. Thanks, Monty!

Posted by: FDR's Television at March 09, 2015 10:47 AM (ne2fm)

224 Curses! Foiled again.

Posted by: The Barrel at March 09, 2015 10:42 AM (JtwS4)

Fortunately, I'm less forgiving.

Roll out the barrel for the Mind.

Posted by: The Barrel's cheesy cousin at March 09, 2015 10:48 AM (cL79m)

225 To be honest, Austria has been in economic troubles since the late 1700's. One of the reason there is such a school as "Austrian Economics" is because Carl Menger, Von Mises and Hayek all started out with the question, "Why the Hell does this keep happening?" and started studying from there.

Posted by: Kindltot at March 09, 2015 10:48 AM (t//F+)

226 It's a multi-billion-dollar a year SS rip-off that most people have never even heard of.

Posted by: TrivialPursuer

Good point. I thought it was the same program. Even though it is... the government plays the game of SSDI being distinct from SSI distinct from SS... when they all draw down SS. The donks did it on purpose.

To think how Bush was destroyed over his idea ( and in hindsight, can you imagine the 08 crash with his initiative just starting? ) Our Federal government is trying to catch up to Greece , and if not for our ability to print and being the world's currency, we'd be screwed even more.

Posted by: Yip at March 09, 2015 10:48 AM (84SRe)

227 BTW, the reason most of these towns are dying is because of the government, but usually not the local government. The Feds in their infinite wisdom instituted something called CRP. Basically pays farmers to plant their acreage back into grass, and it gives them money every year they stay in the program. If the landscape is not farmed the grain elevators, implement dealers, fertilizer plants, etc go out of business. Then everyone else, except the nursing homes. Only old people and guys like me live in these towns now.

Posted by: fairweatherbill greenhouse contractor at March 09, 2015 10:49 AM (cNpuB)

228 re: Selma pics

Damn, Mooch got some thighs, there, eh?

She so fat, she left home in high heels and came back wearing flip-flops.

Posted by: Guy Who Doesn't Give a Shit at March 09, 2015 10:49 AM (7ObY1)

229 >>Small towns have done this for years with speed

traps.

The most profitable ticketing spot in my city is 2 blocks from my home. It's a camera (no policeman present) mid-block on a major road just at the dip between two small hills. It's almost a given that you'll have accelerated over the speed limit as you get to the base of he hill. It's a racket everywhere, not just Ferguson.

Posted by: Lizzy at March 09, 2015 10:49 AM (bdqzU)

230 If I want to buy a car, and the Yugo dealer tells the world that this things da bomb.

Yugo of Bagdad.

Posted by: wrg500 at March 09, 2015 10:49 AM (S+el1)

231 Austria is going to have a hard time making that whole Germany owes us because of that whole WWII thing argument work.

Posted by: The Great White Snark at March 09, 2015 10:50 AM (j6e8f)

232 If the University has a communications department, but the placement data and starting salaries for grads are simply not available, who is at fault for applying for and getting a loan for a degree that turns out to be useless? The bank? Me? The university? Anyone who rails agaist eeeeeevvvvviiiiillll bankers?

I would think that if the University just doesn't publish the numbers, then caveat emptor would apply. They don't publish the placement data for a BA in Underwater Basket Weaving- maybe you should do some market research on your own.

If they publish false or misleading data, however, then they're committing fraud, and they should be on the hook.

Posted by: AllenG (DedicatedTenther) - TrueCon at March 09, 2015 10:50 AM (kff5f)

233 next phase of the Hillary implosion story: donations to the Clinton Foundation were straight-up payola, and the emails hide that fact. (via RealClearPolitics)

http://bit.ly/1A8LnsO

Posted by: MTF, Bring On the Art. 5 Convention! at March 09, 2015 10:50 AM (FCsIb)

234 . It's a racket everywhere, not just Ferguson.
Posted by: Lizzy at March 09, 2015 10:49 AM (bdqzU)

There are a couple of small towns in or near Alachua county that are like this. It's so bad that AAA actually warns its members about the speed traps there.

Posted by: Insomniac at March 09, 2015 10:51 AM (2Ojst)

235 Nip Sip.... I drove through Cimmeron NM last summer... you're right! A dump with a paved street through it.

Posted by: Yip at March 09, 2015 10:51 AM (84SRe)

236 There are no economic problems in Austria, wingnutz.

Why, I just spoke to the Austrian Prime Minister, Tony Abbott, this morning, direct from Sydney.

Posted by: Your President at March 09, 2015 10:51 AM (7ObY1)

237 So Kafka is writing government fiscal policy for Greece?

Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at March 09, 2015 10:52 AM (WjcKy)

238 Student loans are a payback to academia for all of the good work they have been doing to indoctrinate young people since the '60's. It is also a good way for the federal government to enslave young people. Obama has already advanced the idea that if your work for government, your student loan will be paid off.

Buy a car with a loan, and you are a slave to your employer, and you'll pay twice or three times what the car is worth. Yet you need transportation to get to work. Buy a junker and you miss work when it breaks down, and your life revolves around keeping the POS running.

Posted by: G. Rodger Aimes at March 09, 2015 10:53 AM (q/aTs)

239 "Study what you really love because you'll put your
heart and soul into it and you'll likely do very well academically.
However, and this is crucial, be sure to pick up some marketable skills
along the way."

Best advice anyone ever gave me.
Posted by: physics geek at March 09, 2015 09:56 AM (MT22W)

Too often "do what you love" is interpreted as "do what is easy"

That is why it is bad advice.

Posted by: Kindltot at March 09, 2015 10:53 AM (t//F+)

240 Ny. Times ouch

http://tinyurl.com/qdzznkw

Saudi Arabia has been a particularly generous benefactor to the Clinton Foundation, giving at least $10 million since 2001, according to foundation disclosures. At least $1 million more was donated by Friends of Saudi Arabia, co-founded by a Saudi prince.

Posted by: wrg500 at March 09, 2015 10:54 AM (S+el1)

241 Like you, I dislike government intervention in the
process; I could hardly be clearer in my distaste for governmental
fuckery. But that doesn't extend to welshing on debts just because you
don't want to pay.

Posted by: Monty
.........
There is no such thing as "defaulting" on a student loan. You can stop paying, but you can never default on it. It will go to collections.. Your credit ratings are ruined. And, you wil continue to add on interest while you are in default status.

If you ever start working, your paycheck WILL be garnished up to 15%. You will never get out of paying that loan, Monty.

You should brush up on some of this shit before pontificating.

Banks and Universities have invented this scam with the help of Congress. It needs to stop. It only perpetuates sky-high tuition.

Posted by: Chi-Town Jerry at March 09, 2015 10:54 AM (so+oy)

242 Greek women have big boobs and small butts.

Why cant they realize the economic benefits of such a large reserve of this resource?

Posted by: Cicero Kaboom! Kid. Not really an economist. at March 09, 2015 10:55 AM (cZOkr)

243 According to Nancy Pelosi one of the amazing aspects of Obamacare is that it allows our mimes and street artists to continue to "do what they love".

Posted by: Muldoon, a solid man at March 09, 2015 10:55 AM (NeFrd)

244 In re: student loans. I should be more interested in an aspect of the credit industry larger than credit cards, I guess, but I don't have the time. Having admitted I'm lazy, can I ask one question: Are banks still the prime lenders here? I thought TFG nationalized this industry (the lending side, not the servicing side) and the government is now the direct lender. And the default rate (if that is true) can only rise as a result.

People borrowing money for any purpose better have a plan to service that debt. If students borrow for a degree, one would hope they have a concrete idea of how that degree will help liquidate that debt.

Posted by: MTF, Bring On the Art. 5 Convention! at March 09, 2015 10:55 AM (FCsIb)

245 Chance that you'll find a job doing what you love? One in 27,000,000

Chance that someone you know will be diagnosed with street artism? One in 37.

Posted by: Muldoon, a solid man at March 09, 2015 10:56 AM (NeFrd)

246 A mime is a terrible thing to waste.

Posted by: Muldoon, a solid man at March 09, 2015 10:56 AM (NeFrd)

247 It's a racket everywhere, not just Ferguson.

Hence traffic light cameras.

Posted by: Zap Rowsdower at March 09, 2015 10:56 AM (MMC8r)

248 Yeah, Selma? Bush? Invisible. The MSM has no shame.

If Bill Clinton had attended, you think his picture would be in the papers?

Posted by: Nip Sip at March 09, 2015 10:57 AM (0FSuD)

249 >>Ultimately, a new compact between old and young is going to have to be forged. <<

No ultimately an adherence to constitutional principle and the law needs to be made paramount.

The consistency between generation has always been our fundamental system of government.

But that government has been corrupted and obfuscated by the politicians in Washington.

To cover up for their incompetence and greed, they've set Americans against each other. Old against young, rich against poor, black against white and so on.

It's their camouflage for the disaster they created.

While they're slinking out across the floor, we are killing each other.

It's about time that together we cut off the head of the snake.

Posted by: Marcus T at March 09, 2015 10:57 AM (GGCsk)

250 >>Too often "do what you love" is interpreted as "do what is easy"
That is why it is bad advice.

My rags-to-riches successful uncle gave a variation of this advice:
Find something you love - and find a way to make money doing it.

When my uber-lefty cousin went to work for a non-profit after graduating college helping troubled teens, uncle said: "You really want to help these kids? Get a real job, make lots of money and then pay 4 guys $16K a year to help troubled teens intead of doing it yourself for $16K."
He had a point.

Posted by: Lizzy at March 09, 2015 10:57 AM (bdqzU)

251 Buy a junker and you miss work when it breaks down, and your life revolves around keeping the POS running.

I always have two beaters to avoid the problem.

Posted by: toby928(C) at March 09, 2015 10:57 AM (evdj2)

252 If the University has a communications department, but the placement data and starting salaries for grads are simply not available, who is at fault for applying for and getting a loan for a degree that turns out to be useless? The bank? Me? The university? Anyone who rails agaist eeeeeevvvvviiiiillll bankers? I would think that if the University just doesn't publish the numbers, then caveat emptor would apply. They don't publish the placement data for a BA in Underwater Basket Weaving- maybe you should do some market research on your own. If they publish false or misleading data, however, then they're committing fraud, and they should be on the hook.

Agreed. The banks aren't doing their normal diligence, since they don't have to (governmtent subsidies) and being treated like Shylock. It's the CRA yet again. And the borowers aren't even going to the level of getting a home inpector or an appraisal. That step alone could be interesting, until it was outlawed or de-fanged.

It's easier to blame banks than millions of parents and students that took runs at diploma mills.

Posted by: Blue Hen at March 09, 2015 10:57 AM (b7GF2)

253 There is no such thing as "defaulting" on a student loan. You can stop paying, but you can never default on it. It will go to collections.. Your credit ratings are ruined. And, you wil continue to add on interest while you are in default status.

If you ever start working, your paycheck WILL be garnished up to 15%. You will never get out of paying that loan, Monty.

You should brush up on some of this shit before pontificating.

Banks and Universities have invented this scam with the help of Congress. It needs to stop. It only perpetuates sky-high tuition.

I'm asking because I don't know...

What's the collection rate on defaulted student loans?

Posted by: @JohnTant at March 09, 2015 10:58 AM (eytER)

254 Cash for Clunkers decimated the spare beater market.

Jean Francois Cary has his magic hat, ManBearPig has his magic lockbox.

Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at March 09, 2015 10:59 AM (WjcKy)

255 Steve den Beste just had a very good post about student loan DOOM.
http://chizumatic.mee.nu/come_the_revolution

I'm usually happy to trash my generation and their pie in the sky bullshit choices, but this is one where they had plenty of help in digging their hole, and the consequences aren't yet fully clear.

Posted by: kartoffel at March 09, 2015 10:59 AM (szYND)

256 246 A mime is a terrible thing to waste.
Posted by: Muldoon, a solid man at March 09, 2015 10:56 AM (NeFrd)

Robin Hood:Men In Tights, best scene the titual named song

Posted by: MikeH at March 09, 2015 10:59 AM (NPaHf)

257 I don't see why any debt should be dischargable via bankruptcy. Somebody makes a promise to repay a debt, they should owe it until it is paid. The risk to the one making the loan should be that when all of the assets of the debtor are liquidated, they only get X cents on the dollar.

Posted by: Vashta Nerada at March 09, 2015 11:00 AM (79zi+)

258 The government is going to bail out the kiddies on student loans Monty. They pretty much own the market.

I can't wait for the next bailout crisis which is going to be student loans.

But it was the "greedy banks and Wall Street" or something.

Posted by: Marcus T at March 09, 2015 11:00 AM (GGCsk)

259 My oldest is a HS senior waiting on a couple of school decisions. This thread is really making me tense.

Posted by: @votermom at March 09, 2015 11:00 AM (cbfNE)

260 BTW - I'm not letting the students and the parents off the hook here. They are just as much to blame as anyone. But they are dupes.

If you buy a car and can't make the payments, they can repossess the car. It's done hundreds of times per day.

If you make a bad loan to a student, you have the government guarantee the student will have that debt for their entire life.

Posted by: Chi-Town Jerry at March 09, 2015 11:00 AM (so+oy)

261 There's a really interesting Danish film called "After the Wedding" that explores helping people via toiling away at a non-profit vs. bankrolling it. It's called "After the wedding." It also explores helping strangers vs. helping people you know (why do strangers have a higher priority for do-gooders?). Interesting...

Posted by: Lizzy at March 09, 2015 11:01 AM (bdqzU)

262 Love me some DOOM!!!!!

Posted by: Diogenes at March 09, 2015 11:02 AM (08Znv)

263 Ultimately, a new compact between old and young is going to have to be forged. Young people need to understand that retirees, as a rule, didn't choose to be put in the spot they're in. Retirees need to understand that it's morally wrong to expect young people to forgo their own financial futures to finance the retirements of their elders. There needs to be an understanding among all adults, young and old, that "fair" is no longer in the cards. We have been cheated, all of us, and the money is long gone. The best we can do now is mitigate the consequences of the fraud perpetrated on us. But the first step in that mitigation process is accepting that the status quo is unsustainable...and ethically reprehensible.

I'm just spitballing here - cut SocSecurity payments in half, cut out the employer half of FICA/SECA, and cut out everybody under 55 from ever collecting on SocSecurity until everybody who remains eligible for SocSecurity dies.

Pain - it's what's for breakfast, lunch, dinner and midnight snack.

Posted by: steveegg at March 09, 2015 11:02 AM (cL79m)

264 254 Cash for Clunkers decimated the spare beater market.

Jean Francois Cary has his magic hat, ManBearPig has his magic lockbox.
Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at March 09, 2015 10:59 AM (WjcKy)

^This. The supply of used cars went down, so basic economics kicked in and the prices of available used cars went up, making it more difficult for people of middle-class means (or less) to obtain an affordable, quality automobile.

Posted by: Insomniac at March 09, 2015 11:03 AM (2Ojst)

265 Nood.

Posted by: HH at March 09, 2015 11:03 AM (Ce4DF)

266 Banks and Universities have invented this scam with the help of Congress. It needs to stop. It only perpetuates sky-high tuition.
Posted by: Chi-Town Jerry

This "scam" was gladly embraced by every clown that signed up for English, Journolism, psychocology (the list goes on)who either ignored or never even looked at the precentage of degree holders who:
found ANY job
a job requiring a degree
a job requiring that degree.
People have been doing this for decades, but the market absorbed almost all of them. We're in a down market now, and these clowns are the first against the wall, no unlike the people with 95% mortgages and fanciful income statements.

Posted by: Blue Hen at March 09, 2015 11:03 AM (b7GF2)

267 I'm asking because I don't know...

What's the collection rate on defaulted student loans?

Posted by: @JohnTant
.......
About 80% - depends on the loan type:

http://tinyurl.com/kpdzfyq

near the bottom of this article.

And that is AFTER collection costs.

Posted by: Chi-Town Jerry at March 09, 2015 11:04 AM (so+oy)

268 @259
Posted by: @votermom at March 09, 2015 11:00 AM

Two words: ROTC Scholarship.

Best scholarship out there...it pays for most of the education (all at some schools) and there is a job waiting when they graduate. And they get the chance to serve our nation. And if your student can't get one out of highschool, then they need to take the Freshman classes for ROTC and apply for the three year version.

Posted by: Diogenes at March 09, 2015 11:05 AM (08Znv)

269 I believe there were about 7 million student loans borrowers considered in default last year, The outstanding principle on those loans was almost $100 billion. Yes billion.

Posted by: Marcus T at March 09, 2015 11:05 AM (GGCsk)

270 Hey AlextheChick would this work on deterrent on taking on student loan debt?

If the signer fails to repay the student loan debt, they will serve as an unpaid foreign aid worker somewhere around the globe one year longer than their time in school. Except for training time in the United States, none shall serve in the United States.

Just a modest proposal if we can't draft them into the Army.

Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at March 09, 2015 11:05 AM (WjcKy)

271 Someday, we'll launch MSM editors into the sun.

Actual headline at ESPN:

"Why the Saints should trade Drew Brees."

Yeah, no.

Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at March 09, 2015 11:05 AM (659DL)

272 It seems obvious to us that someone taking out a loan should have a plan to repay it, but most of these kids have never seen money that didn't come from their allowance. Getting a job in high school doesn't happen much anymore. Even if they know they're going to be $150k in debt, they have no idea what that actually means.

Posted by: kartoffel at March 09, 2015 11:06 AM (szYND)

273 If the signer fails to repay the student loan debt, they will serve as an unpaid foreign aid worker somewhere around the globe one year longer than their time in school.

Yes, because what developing country does not need some excess sociology and French literature degree holders to go "hands-on" with their problems?

Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at March 09, 2015 11:07 AM (659DL)

274 BTW - I'm not letting the students and the parents off the hook here. They are just as much to blame as anyone. But they are dupes.
Posted by: Chi-Town Jerry

If I had no fucking clue what I was going to do with a degree, and my thought process never progressed beyond, "must get degree, from within laundry range", then I'm not a dupe. I'm a heavily over-extended dumbass.

Everyone who is trying to finance college, whether their process is well thought out or not, IS a victim of the cost spiral caused by this monstrous distortion.

A dupe is one who was promised something, and was cheated. There are fools shoveling borrowed money toward worthless degrees, people striving for degrees that are being de-valued by inflation of supply, and people paying costs heated by governmental interference.

Posted by: Blue Hen at March 09, 2015 11:09 AM (b7GF2)

275 Anna Puma - I would put them to work building a fence along our southern border!

Posted by: Chi-Town Jerry at March 09, 2015 11:09 AM (so+oy)

276 I'm a heavily over-extended dumbass.

Blue Hen
..........
Yes. But without the enablers, you would be a much less extended dumbass.

Posted by: Chi-Town Jerry at March 09, 2015 11:12 AM (so+oy)

277 A little weak in the Doomy dept today, but I guess every day can't be the Imminent End Of The World, unless you hang at ZeroHedge.

But there's always tomorrow and hope springs eternal for the Great Reckoning.

*goes back to counting ammo boxes*

Posted by: Meremortal at March 09, 2015 11:12 AM (1Y+hH)

278 There's a lot of cheap houses out there if you know where to look.

Detroit comes to mind.

-
Yeah, but your ammo expenses really up your cost of living.

Posted by: The Great White Snark at March 09, 2015 11:26 AM (j6e8f)

279 257 I don't see why any debt should be dischargable via bankruptcy. Somebody makes a promise to repay a debt, they should owe it until it is paid. The risk to the one making the loan should be that when all of the assets of the debtor are liquidated, they only get X cents on the dollar
=====================

How the most often used bankruptcy processes works helps explain all this. When a person (individual or corporate) discharges their debts in bankruptcy, depending on the chapter used, they either liquidate their balance sheet completely or else they negotiate to reduce debt levels to a point their reduced cash flow can commensurately service.

Either way, lenders take it in the neck (as they should) and debtors get a fresh chance (as they should).

The only other possibility is that lenders never lose money and debtors are essentially enslaved by their debts and that's a terrible idea. Just ask Dickens.

Making student debt non-dischargeable in bankruptcy is one of the most insane things about this whole mess. Whoever came up with that idea and got it enshrined in law should be called to account.

Posted by: MTF, Bring On the Art. 5 Convention! at March 09, 2015 11:27 AM (FCsIb)

280 Yes, also the students of Gender Studies can't figure out why there are no jobs for them except short order cook or barrista.

Boy, who saw that coming.

Posted by: Marcus T at March 09, 2015 11:29 AM (GGCsk)

281 280 Yes, also the students of Gender Studies can't figure out why there are no jobs for them except short order cook or barrista.

Boy, who saw that coming.

Posted by: Marcus T at March 09, 2015 11:29 AM (GGCsk)

My question to those with dubious majors: "Would you hire someone to do X? If so, why?"

I've never received a cogent answer. A lot of spluttering and invective, and occasionally a specious high-minded defense of the arts, but never a cogent answer (viz., "Yes, I would, to do ...").

Posted by: Jay Guevara at March 09, 2015 11:47 AM (oKE6c)

282 A dupe is one who was promised something, and
was cheated. There are fools shoveling borrowed money toward worthless
degrees, people striving for degrees that are being de-valued by
inflation of supply, and people paying costs heated by governmental
interference.

Posted by: Blue Hen at March 09, 2015 11:09 AM (b7GF2)

It comes down to this: many, if not most, people attending college have little business being there. If high schools did their jobs adequately, and employers could administer aptitude tests, there would be no need for most people to go to college. As it stands now, a college degree merely tells prospective employers that you're not a ghetto denizen.

Posted by: Jay Guevara at March 09, 2015 11:50 AM (oKE6c)

283 254 Cash for Clunkers decimated the spare beater market.

In an interesting reverse on channel-stuffing.

Posted by: Jay Guevara at March 09, 2015 11:53 AM (oKE6c)

284 Greetings:

Re: economic advice to college grads

I was one of those Psychology majors in one of my attempts at a college education. My financial analyst Big Sister advised me to take an Economics minor so that "maybe you'll be able to figure out how to make a buck."

Posted by: 11B40 at March 09, 2015 12:17 PM (yMbU8)

285 "Buyer's remorse is not sufficient reason to repudiate a legally-incurred debt, kids."

No; but fraud in the inducement may be. As may failure of consideration.

And - not to out-Glenn Professor Reynolds, here - is not the American university nowadays in just that position?

Posted by: Markham Shaw Pyle at March 09, 2015 12:43 PM (WlkUc)

286 I'm just spitballing here - cut SocSecurity payments in half, cut out the employer half of FICA/SECA, and cut out everybody under 55 from ever collecting on SocSecurity until everybody who remains eligible for SocSecurity dies.

Whoo, whoo! In like Flynn!

Wait, what?!?

Posted by: Spun and Murky at March 09, 2015 12:47 PM (4DCSq)

287 Soooo...we're supposed to take 5'5" (maybe) Sean Penn seriously as an action star?

At long last, Hollywood...have you no shame?

Hey A$$HOLE!

Posted by: Audie Murphy at March 09, 2015 12:59 PM (E1aoU)

288 I'm really dissapointed in the moron crowd. My advise for recent graduates? One word, "plastics".

Posted by: Dogbert at March 09, 2015 01:02 PM (LKWuH)

289 Wasn't "I Make The Cloak of Sorrow" originally done by Barry Manilow?

/also.. I can see King Barack I requiring "National Service" in his "Brown Shirts Brigade" as a requirement for getting rid of student loan debt.

Posted by: shibumi who is awaiting SMOD at March 09, 2015 01:05 PM (SXYle)

290 Ceramics.

Posted by: fb at March 09, 2015 01:10 PM (JVEmw)

291 255 Steve den Beste just had a very good post about student loan DOOM.
http://chizumatic.mee.nu/come_the_revolution

Posted by: kartoffel at March 09, 2015 10:59 AM (szYND)

Holy crap, that's a hell of a post.

I've said before that young people saddled with debt in a poor economy may never be able to achieve the American Dream, and that this is very worrisome. If they cannot own property themselves, they are less likely to respect the property of others.

Posted by: rickl at March 09, 2015 01:29 PM (zoehZ)

292 New Fourth Amendment: Congress shall make no law prohibiting an action that does not materially injure any person and is voluntary.

Posted by: rights of man at March 09, 2015 01:47 PM (Kxz3Y)

293 Eh, doing what you love isn't necessarily bad advice. After ROTC throttled back and chucked a bunch of us out since Clinton's post 1995 Army needed fewer lieutenants, I finished my degree anyway then enlisted. Figured I'd go to OCS later. Korea, Kosovo, Iraq twice, would have been three if not for a nasty training accident, then have still stayed in the biz as a DOD contractor and now a civil service tech.

So if there is a marketable niche in doing what you love and have a couple generals on speed dial, roll with it. Sometimes it works.

Posted by: SGT Dan's Cat at March 09, 2015 01:52 PM (rBcik)

294 My girls didn't have student loans because we (Mom and Dad) paid for college. But along with that, we had final say on the major and checked grades continuously. We told them up front, "You want to major in crap like 'Music Appreciation?' Fine. Pay your own way. You want us to pay, you'll get a business degree. This isn't negotiable. You'll thank us later." We also made them work 25 hours/week to 'really' get an appreciation for a buck. And to see what life was like on the other side should they decide dropping out of college was a good idea.

Today they are 32 and 30, respectively, and killing it, I'm happy to say! And they have told us on numerous occasions how lucky they were/are not to be saddled with student debt as are the majority of their peer group.

Posted by: windrider95 at March 09, 2015 04:06 PM (QMxJS)

295 More serious typo alert - there's no link for the first Williamson reference - just a bare "<a href=".

Posted by: Calvin Dodge at March 10, 2015 07:01 PM (M2QZx)

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