Rand Paul in 2009 Interview with InfoWars: Vaccines the First Step Towards "Martial Law"

I think we can safely say that he is his father's son.

A lot of this is pretty defensible, I think -- including his observation that "mandates" for innocculations are a first step towards "martial law."

That kind of rhetoric used to bother me. It sounded paranoid to me.

But it doesn't sound that way anymore. I'm not saying this makes me right, but these worries of the paranoid fringe don't seem entirely paranoid to me any longer.

Under Obama's misrule, I have become far more suspicious of the competency and motives (personal motives and, even more crucially, unexamined and even unknown class/cadre motives and imperatives) and am far less likely to sneer at a claim that any power granted to those with the legal license to kill you could result in tyranny.

That said, he's speaking here to InfoWars. And it is necessary to know the background of why he's talking about the Swine Flu Vaccine. In short, it's because the Swine Flu Vaccine debacle ignited a public backlash that shades into conspiracy theories.

In fact, the 2009 swine flu outbreak has also prompted Conspiracy Theorist Without Portfolio Alex Jones to hop on the bandwagon and start churning out conspiracy theories.

(Note: the conspiracy theories are largely caused by paranoia owing to the government's warning about a far greater outbreak than actually happens; rather than concluding we dodged a bullet or the scientists overestimated the threat, the conspirators suggest that the threat was deliberately overstated to condition the populace to accept government control, and to accept Government Vaccinations.)

Some of this isn't exactly foreign to me. The head of the CDC lied about the transmission pathways of ebola to downplay the risks; I have no question that public officials routinely overstate or understate risks in order to manipulate public behavior towards a specific mode they've decided is "for the greater good."

But there's paranoia and then there's paranoia. The paranoia about the Clerisy's vested class interests is of a different character than paranoia that the government is conditioning people to accept vaccinations so that they can begin shaping our behavior through "vaccines" which are really designed to calm us and anesthetize us.

Your mileage may differ on this, but I find Rand Paul's actual words not all that bothersome; what bothers me is that he, like his father, is absolutely determined to flatter the paranoias of a a dark and weird fringe.

Sen. Rand Paul (R., Ky.) said during a 2009 interview with Alex Jones' InfoWars that mandatory vaccines for illnesses such as the swine flu could be an early step toward "martial law," and said the procedures have a long history of lethal side effects.
"The first sort of thing you see with martial law is mandates, and they're talking about making it mandatory," said Paul. "I worry because the first flu vaccine we had in the 1970s, more people died from the vaccine than died from the swine flu."

That's mostly true (I just checked). 25 people died after having received the swine flu vaccination in 1976; I doubt it's true that each of those deaths can be traced directly to the vaccine, but Paul here is on fairly firm ground in at least repeating something that the Common Wisdom holds to be true.

Very few people died after the first registered case of swine flu itself.

"The whole problem is not necessarily good versus bad on vaccines, it's whether it should be mandatory or the individual makes the decision," he added. "And sometimes you want to not be the first one to get a new procedure, you want to see if it works well before you choose."
While Paul said he would personally choose to get the smallpox vaccine again and would have taken one for polio, he said the decision to vaccinate should be left to the individual. He also said the risks of the vaccines need to be weighed against the risks of the diseases.
"You have to weigh the risks of the disease versus the risks of the vaccine," Paul said. "But I'm not going to tell people who think it’s a bad idea that they have to take it because everybody should be allowed to make their own health care decisions."

Eh, I agree with that too.

I guess I'm just bothered at the Pauls' relentless courting of the paranoid right/left, the fringey cadre of people who drift easily from being LaRouchian Democrats to being John Birch Society Republicans. It's a group for which the dominant political position is a belief in dark conspiracies of all sorts.

Posted by: Ace at 01:19 PM

Comments

(Jump to bottom of comments)

1 WTF?

Posted by: HoboJerk, The State Loves You at February 03, 2015 01:20 PM (FA3Z7)

2 He was on InfoWars?

Yeesh.

(I still think he's doing good work in Senate)

My pool of possibles are now down to .... Walker?

Posted by: HoboJerk, The State Loves You at February 03, 2015 01:21 PM (FA3Z7)

3 On policy I agree mostly(public schooling muddles the freedom argument like always), but come on. InfoWars?

Posted by: HoboJerk, The State Loves You at February 03, 2015 01:21 PM (FA3Z7)

4 Paul-bots assemble!

Posted by: toby928(C) at February 03, 2015 01:21 PM (rwI+c)

5 Just reading the headline for now my comment is this is just the kind of nutty shit that both Pauls say that completely makes both of them unqualified for any duty but shithouse ass wiper.

Posted by: Vic at February 03, 2015 01:22 PM (wlDny)

6 Conspiracy mongering is a form of gnosticism, and hence, attractive.

Posted by: toby928(C) at February 03, 2015 01:23 PM (rwI+c)

7 Yeah, so let's keep going after the GOP's potential candidates on the "kooky" stuff.

I wonder- what did Hillary say about this?

Most folks will probably never know. Because we're reading about all those crazy and wild Republicans.

Yet, we wonder why a general election can't be won.

As the major opponent and heavily predicted favorite is home eating bon-bon's and staying out or the limelight. We're busy cannibalizing each other.

Posted by: Marcus T at February 03, 2015 01:23 PM (GGCsk)

8 "Under Obama's misrule, I have become far more suspicious of the competency and motives (personal motives and, even more crucially, unexamined and even unknown class/cadre motives and imperatives) and am far less likely to sneer at a claim that any power granted to those with the legal license to kill you could result in tyranny."

We used to take for granted that in the US, even the government would predominantly be run by people steeped in the ethos of individual liberty and unalienable rights. Now we find out it is populated by amoral, sociopathic Marxist goons.

We took our exceptionalism for granted and now the liberal zombies are in danger of destroying everything.

Posted by: I Loathe Silence Sensually at February 03, 2015 01:24 PM (xkSSa)

9
I guess I'm just bothered at the Pauls' relentless courting of the paranoid right/left, the fringey cadre of people who drift easily from being LaRouchian Democrats to being John Birch Society Republicans.

So, you're OK with what he actually said, but the son still gets tarred with the father's brush?

Posted by: Bandersnatch at February 03, 2015 01:25 PM (JtwS4)

10 >>> Under Obama's misrule, I have become far more suspicious of the competency and motives...and am far less likely to sneer at a claim that any power granted to
those with the legal license to kill you could result in tyranny.

Racist much?

Posted by: Dave Zirin, Journalist Extraordinaire at February 03, 2015 01:25 PM (yRwC8)

11 His content doesn't bother me here, it's what I think is really in his paranoid, joo-hating heart and what other troublesome soundbites exist after who knows how many conspiracy outfit interviews.

Posted by: FDR's Television at February 03, 2015 01:25 PM (ne2fm)

12 Anyone else wonder why Pete Carroll really allowed the pass play that cost the Seahawks the game?

Hey, I'm just asking questions.

Posted by: Rand Paul at February 03, 2015 01:25 PM (f8y+G)

13 I didn't see illegal alien mentioned once in there. Treating the symptom and not addressing the cause gets us nowhere. Root Cause Analysis.

Posted by: dogfish at February 03, 2015 01:25 PM (NuPNl)

14 Posted by: Marcus T at February 03, 2015 01:23 PM (GGCsk)

I say this as someone who's more inclined to Paul than most here: Doesn't matter. Our side has to be held to more rigorous standards.

Pandering to InfoWars crowd is no-no.

Posted by: HoboJerk, The State Loves You at February 03, 2015 01:25 PM (FA3Z7)

15 #Don'tInnoculateMe,Bro!

Posted by: Rand Paul at February 03, 2015 01:25 PM (Hv3LR)

16 And I am perfectly fine with MANDATORY vaccinations using proven safe vaccines. My only condition would be that it be done like it was down in the 50s and allow State and local government to handle it. Like you said Ace, I don't trust the federal goverment any further than I could throw the Jefferson Memorial.

As a matter of fact, down South here we have a 200 year tradition of not trusting the federal government.

Posted by: Vic at February 03, 2015 01:26 PM (wlDny)

17

I've changed the definition of "conspiracy" in my head.

Anything can happen now.

We never get to the truth of anything.

Posted by: artisanal 'ette at February 03, 2015 01:26 PM (IXrOn)

18 Yes, Ron and Rand have both gone on InfoWars over the years and spoken with certified nut case Alex Jones.

But how come that disqualifies our guys, but democrat politicians can REGULARLY flirt with conspiracy theories, be interviewed by nut cases, and hang around nut cases and not get called on it?

Rand talks to Alex Jones -- can't be president
Obama sits in a pew for 15 years listening to anti-white anti-Semitic anti-american conspiracy theorist (9/11 truther among other things) Reverend Wright, and that's no big deal?

Posted by: mynewhandle at February 03, 2015 01:26 PM (AkOaV)

19 11 joo-hating heart
Posted by: FDR's Television at February 03, 2015 01:25 PM (ne2fm)

I'll have to ask for citation on this though.

Posted by: HoboJerk, The State Loves You at February 03, 2015 01:26 PM (FA3Z7)

20 Could be worse. He could be talking to the groups Scalise talks to.

Posted by: gm at February 03, 2015 01:26 PM (K0tm3)

21 But it doesn't sound that way anymore. I'm not saying this makes me right, but these worries of the paranoid fringe don't seem entirely paranoid to me any longer.-Ace

#youworrytoomcuh

Posted by: Misanthropic Humanitrian at February 03, 2015 01:27 PM (/GgDU)

22 Well this thread will bring out the fruitcake and Paulinains so I am out of here. I have said before Paul will be the death of the Republican party.

Posted by: Nevergiveup at February 03, 2015 01:27 PM (LJcWW)

23
Rand Paul will be the R nominee, so you'd better get used to the idea.

Posted by: Soothsayer at February 03, 2015 01:27 PM (kgXbV)

24 Some of this isn't exactly foreign to me. The head of the CDC lied about the transmission pathways of ebola to downplay the risks

then there's global warming

Posted by: artisanal 'ette at February 03, 2015 01:28 PM (IXrOn)

25 >>Posted by: HoboJerk, The State Loves You at February 03, 2015 01:25 PM (FA3Z7)
<<

You missed my point, and by the way- what is really substantive to the election about this?

Answer: nothing. It's another diversion being pushed by liberals.

And we help them. Because...well, I have no idea.

I have enough to disqualify Paul on real issues. This stuff is probably below National Enquirer standards.

Posted by: Marcus T at February 03, 2015 01:28 PM (GGCsk)

26 Remember that hating on the swine flu vaccination effort was fashionable. Why? It was an election year and Gerald Ford was president.

Posted by: Blue Hen at February 03, 2015 01:28 PM (Spluw)

27 7. I wonder- what did Hillary say about this?

Posted by: Marcus T at February 03, 2015 01:23 PM (GGCsk)

I have a link on the short-lasted morning news thread.

Posted by: Vic at February 03, 2015 01:28 PM (wlDny)

28 One of the side affects to MMR vaccine is death. Read the insert.

Posted by: Boss Moss at February 03, 2015 01:28 PM (hlbmD)

29 What if they replace vaccine mercury with liquid silver dimes?

Posted by: wooga at February 03, 2015 01:28 PM (HoRFj)

30 I have said before Paul will be the death of the Republican party.
Posted by: Nevergiveup at February 03, 2015 01:27 PM (LJcWW)

Hahahahahahahahahahaha. Oh. You're serious? Ok.

Posted by: HoboJerk, The State Loves You at February 03, 2015 01:29 PM (FA3Z7)

31 Appearing on InfoWars isn't the worst sin in the world.

I like Mike Judge - Beavis and Butthead, Idiocracy -- and he's given interviews to Alex Jones.

Of course, he's not running for President.

Posted by: Costanza Defense at February 03, 2015 01:29 PM (ZPrif)

32 One of things I always liked about Ron was his willingness to speak with anyone on any topic. I watch a lot of documentaries, and Ron shows up in a surprising number. These low budget youtube documentary crews just walk up to Ron in the street and he'll stand there and talk to them about the gold standard or whatever for 10 minutes, while every other politician walks right by.

Alex Jones is a nut, I don't think anyone would doubt that. But so what? Rand says something unobjectionable to Alex Jones, and now he must be ostracized? Not because of what he said, but because of who he said it to?

Posted by: mynewhandle at February 03, 2015 01:29 PM (AkOaV)

33 You bet you should be able to make healthcare decisions for yourself and your children.

Damn shame when they aren't allowed into schools, though, because it should be a condition for admission. Enough disease gets passed around in schools without potentially deadly diseases being thrown into the mix.

Posted by: huerfano at February 03, 2015 01:29 PM (bAGA/)

34 Had Infowars already earned their Master Crank status in '09?

Posted by: major major major major at February 03, 2015 01:29 PM (nM3da)

35 A cray-cray Paul in the White House is still better than any old dried up c*nt the dems want to place there. There is that.

Posted by: Misanthropic Humanitrian at February 03, 2015 01:29 PM (/GgDU)

36
Posted by: Marcus T at February 03, 2015 01:28 PM (GGCsk)

didn't really see a point. Whinging about media is *shrug*

Posted by: HoboJerk, The State Loves You at February 03, 2015 01:30 PM (FA3Z7)

37 Remember that hating on the DoD was fashionable after the Gulf war, when people reported problems with anthrax vaccinations.

Why? George Bush Senior was president.

Posted by: Blue Hen at February 03, 2015 01:30 PM (Spluw)

38 Also: Disqualified.

He can't seem to make a good point without making it correlate to a dramatic, over-the top, big-state-paranoid-sounding conclusion. He's not wrong, it just opens him to an unwinnable media furor.

Posted by: FDR's Television at February 03, 2015 01:30 PM (ne2fm)

39 I tend to agree with Ace on this one. While the public policy objectives behind mandatory vaccination are obvious, the pro-vaccine advocates are taking the position that the government would not lie to us about such things, ignoring the fact that the government lies to us all the time about virtually everything.

Sad but true.

Posted by: Scanner Dan at February 03, 2015 01:30 PM (ookpG)

40 Cue the Pauline disciples to start with "Ace agrees, so he's only doing this because of jealousy/he's being paid" in 3..2..

Posted by: Turd Ferguson at February 03, 2015 01:30 PM (VAsIq)

41 >>> His content doesn't bother me here, it's what I think is really in his
paranoid, joo-hating heart and what other troublesome soundbites exist
after who knows how many conspiracy outfit interviews.

Are we sure he actually has a heart? The shape shifting joos might have stolen it as part of a cunning plan.

Posted by: conspiracy theorist crafting tinfoil yarmulkes at February 03, 2015 01:30 PM (yRwC8)

42 As a matter of fact, down South here we have a 200 year tradition of not trusting the federal government.
Posted by: Vic
------------------------------

Here..., have some Kudzu.

Posted by: Mike Hammer, etc., etc. at February 03, 2015 01:30 PM (/GgDU)

43 18 Obama sits in a pew for 15 years listening to
anti-white anti-Semitic anti-american conspiracy theorist (9/11 truther
among other things) Reverend Wright, and that's no big deal?

Posted by: mynewhandle at February 03, 2015 01:26 PM (AkOaV)

I have never seen anyone here support Obama and his racist Chicago church. In fact he was blasted harder than either of the Pauls ever has been.

Posted by: Vic at February 03, 2015 01:31 PM (wlDny)

44 23
Rand Paul will be the R nominee, so you'd better get used to the idea.

Posted by: Soothsayer at February 03, 2015 01:27 PM (kgXbV

A bottle of valu-rite that you are wrong.
No way Rand gets the nomination.

Posted by: Misanthropic Humanitrian at February 03, 2015 01:31 PM (/GgDU)

45 >>Posted by: Vic at February 03, 2015 01:28 PM (wlDny)
<<

Which is infuriating.

So not only have we apparently embraced the liberal Democrats diversions, but we made a conscious choice to proliferate their memes on our candidates.

All while ignoring their candidates.

Wonderful choice/ All for some website hits.

Posted by: Marcus T at February 03, 2015 01:31 PM (GGCsk)

46 Paul-bots assemble!

Posted by: toby928(C) at February 03, 2015 01:21 PM (rwI+c)

Paul-Nuts of Amerika,
Stand up if you can.
Stick that left Paul-Nut out
And hoist a doobie in your hand.

Posted by: steveegg at February 03, 2015 01:31 PM (cL79m)

47 Remember that the TSA gropes multiple people with the same set of gloves.

The response of the CDC? No comment.

Posted by: Blue Hen at February 03, 2015 01:32 PM (Spluw)

48 Paul threads bring nasty, insulting trolls.
So, let me save you the trouble:

1. We are sniveling little sycophants who believe everything Ace tells us.
2. We all live in our parent's basements.
3. We are so racist that we hate every race. We even hate the concept of race.

There.

Posted by: JohnnyBoy at February 03, 2015 01:32 PM (TPjwz)

49 Birchers tend to the nutty side, but they weren't wrong about the infiltration of the US government by communists, I'll give them that.

Posted by: Insomniac at February 03, 2015 01:32 PM (2Ojst)

50 A bottle of valu-rite that you are wrong.
No way Rand gets the nomination.
Posted by: Misanthropic Humanitrian at February 03, 2015 01:31 PM (/GgDU)

Paul isn't even going to run. I'd bet a bottle on that. He's raising his profile, will move up in senate hierarchy.

Posted by: HoboJerk, The State Loves You at February 03, 2015 01:32 PM (FA3Z7)

51 I'm sorry but this is a dumb issue. The measles vaccine is not some experimental drug, it has been around for decades and it has been proven safe in the overwhelming number of cases and it has saved thousands and thousands of lives.

You have a right to not have your children vaccinated. But then you forfeit the right to have them interact with the rest of the population at large.

Your choice.

Posted by: JackStraw at February 03, 2015 01:32 PM (g1DWB)

52 Turns out the Birchers were right about Fluoride.

Posted by: Boss Moss at February 03, 2015 01:32 PM (hlbmD)

53 This is pretty meh to me.

Of more importance is our current battle with formerly eradicated diseases making a comeback via the Border Invasion, like the measles outbreak and polio.

Howzabout talking infectious diseases being allowed to walk right across into America?

Posted by: BackwardsBoy, who did not vote for this sh1t at February 03, 2015 01:32 PM (0HooB)

54 Damn.

The very week I have my tin-foil hat at the cleaners.

Posted by: Ricardo Kill at February 03, 2015 01:32 PM (LA7Cm)

55 Well I sure ain't voting for that fucker Jeb.

Posted by: The Humpty at February 03, 2015 01:33 PM (2cmzM)

56 We may need a Hall Monitor for this one.

Posted by: wth at February 03, 2015 01:33 PM (wAQA5)

57 Vaccinations save lives and is vital to modern public health. I am in favor of mandatory vaccination with exceptions for those who cannot be vaccinated due to medical reasons. There are some functions that truly are governmental, and public health is one of those. I think mandatory vaccination is a lot less of an imposition than mandatory quarantine and the benefits of mass vaccination are apparent and within living memory.

BTW - if you really want to read the comments where the conspiracy theories about vaccination and the state are abounding, head over to Hot Air.

Posted by: Mikey NTH - Paranoia Punch with Electrolytes at the Outrage Outlet! at February 03, 2015 01:33 PM (hLRSq)

58 It's not paranoia when they really are out to get you.

Posted by: Famous Paulian sayings at February 03, 2015 01:33 PM (VndSC)

59 Rand can vote for me too! Big tent!

Posted by: Jeb Bush at February 03, 2015 01:33 PM (TPjwz)

60 @34

Oh yeah, Alex Jones has been a nutter for 30 years. And I mean some way out there stuff.

His other site is prisonplanet.com, which is so named after one of his first documentaries in which he argues that the international banking cabals (ahem) are trying to wipe 80% of the worlds population out in order to form a new world order where it's just them and the minimum number of people they need to sustain their luxurious lifestyle.

Posted by: mynewhandle at February 03, 2015 01:33 PM (AkOaV)

61 Seriously, what do you have if you can't trust your own government?

Posted by: Your Betters In Government at February 03, 2015 01:33 PM (8ZskC)

62 42 Here..., have some Kudzu.

Posted by: Mike Hammer, etc., etc. at February 03, 2015 01:30 PM (/GgDU)

Yeah, one of the many thousands of reasons.

Posted by: Vic at February 03, 2015 01:34 PM (wlDny)

63 "Turns out the Birchers were right about Fluoride."

They're poisoning our precious bodily fluids, Mandrake!

Posted by: Gen. Ripper at February 03, 2015 01:34 PM (LA7Cm)

64 Damn.
The very week I have my tin-foil hat at the cleaners.
Posted by: Ricardo Kill

Arby's sandwich wrap works in a pinch.

Posted by: rickb223 at February 03, 2015 01:34 PM (gt0r0)

65 points for trolling
Free Beacon @FreeBeacon
Obama Adviser to Speak at Qatar-Funded Think Tank http://goo.gl/puf8sV

Posted by: Costanza Defense at February 03, 2015 01:34 PM (ZPrif)

66 The very week I have my tin-foil hat at the cleaners.
Posted by: Ricardo
-------------------

* shoves wad of tin-foil (I have a stockpile) into USB port for Rick *

* smoke curls from PC *

Uh, oh.....

Posted by: Mike Hammer, etc., etc. at February 03, 2015 01:34 PM (/GgDU)

67 Considering the JBS believed our government to be infiltrated with Communist moles, I'd say history has borne out their "paranoia."

Posted by: Mary Poppins Practically Perfect Piercing at February 03, 2015 01:34 PM (zF6Iw)

68 You posted a video from infowars yesterday ace (the one on feminist music). It may have been the bbc that first showed the footage, but the video you posted yesterday was produced by infowars.

I dismiss everything you say out of hand just because you posted a video produced by infowars.

Posted by: not a whiny bitch like ace at February 03, 2015 01:35 PM (aitDQ)

69 That Swine Flu shot was a killer, don't know if the newer one is any better though. I got one in the Army in 1976 (or maybe 77 It's been awhile) when I was with the 3RD ID In Germany. It killed 5 guys in our Division alone and rendered the rest of us combat ineffective for almost a week.

Posted by: The Great White Scotsman at February 03, 2015 01:35 PM (4oSLk)

70 I guess I'm just bothered at the Pauls' relentless courting of the paranoid right/left, the fringey cadre of people who drift easily from being LaRouchian Democrats to being John Birch Society Republicans.

You know those "advanced" two-dimensional political charts? They're a flat-Earth representation of a globe, with the "edges" meeting in the back, both for LaRouche/John Birch "southern" hemisphere and the Communist/far-right Statist "northern" hemisphere.

Posted by: steveegg at February 03, 2015 01:35 PM (cL79m)

71
The Left, once again, masterfully boxes us into a very stupid solution to a problem they created.

How many more times will we fall for this?

Posted by: Soothsayer at February 03, 2015 01:35 PM (kgXbV)

72 I'm surprised that so many here are in favor of mandatory forced vaccinations.

Posted by: mynewhandle at February 03, 2015 01:35 PM (AkOaV)

73 19 11 joo-hating heart
Posted by: FDR's Television at February 03, 2015 01:25 PM (ne2fm)

I'll have to ask for citation on this though.
Posted by: HoboJerk, The State Loves You at February 03, 2015 01:26 PM (FA3Z7)

Obama grew up as an anti-colonial communist because he was immersed in it his whole life, but was savvy enough to realize he had to parse his words carefully. I'm saying Rand's heard about the Joos' ills at the dinner table but has learned the same discretion.

Posted by: FDR's Television at February 03, 2015 01:35 PM (ne2fm)

74
""The first sort of thing you see with martial law is mandates, and they're talking about making it mandatory," said Paul. "I worry because the first flu vaccine we had in the 1970s, more people died from the vaccine than died from the swine flu."

Vaccines are always a risk/reward calculus and the unknowns on the risk side are very different for a new drug or vaccine than an old one. So, that part is right to me. And some people can't take vaccines because of auto immune disorders so can't really mandate them for everyone...I actually give Paul more leeway on disease stuff, because I assume he's talking minutia that went over the media's heads and actually is probably right, or more likely to be right than they are at any rate. But on politics I can't get away from his father. Too bad.

Publichealth is something that the government should actually be stepping in on, and if we have a major outbreak I would expect them to impose some element of force on the populace if they are being stupid and causing deaths (like if we had a 1918 style flu that was killing thousands, or polio, or smallpox, etc...)but the problem is that I have lost a lotof trust in org's like the CDC since the Ebola nonsense. I think theyoverreact and are swung by political stuff, when they should be firm and sciency. That is not a good thing.

Posted by: Lea at February 03, 2015 01:35 PM (lIU4e)

75 Crazy!

Posted by: Sergeant Debbie Whatsername Schultz at February 03, 2015 01:35 PM (FCsIb)

76 I'm pretty sure Alex Jones is a CIA/NSA plant put in place to act as a honey trap.

Posted by: The Humpty at February 03, 2015 01:35 PM (2cmzM)

77 I think mandatory vaccination is a lot less of an imposition than mandatory quarantine and the benefits of mass vaccination are apparent and within living memory.

Especially when mandatory quarantine is an erasable red line. Ebola anyone?

Posted by: rickb223 at February 03, 2015 01:36 PM (gt0r0)

78 Remember that there's been a push to make mandatory vacination for HPV, which is an STD. So much for their body, their choice.

Posted by: Blue Hen at February 03, 2015 01:36 PM (Spluw)

79 I'm confused.

Posted by: Bruce Jenner at February 03, 2015 01:36 PM (wAQA5)

80 You have a right to not have your children vaccinated. But then you forfeit the right to have them interact with the rest of the population at large.

Your choice.
--
Except we have no way of enforcing that. No way to prevent them from going to DisneyLand or the ER waiting room.

Posted by: Costanza Defense at February 03, 2015 01:36 PM (ZPrif)

81 so Luap Darn didn't just cross the CO'D Tardasil barrier he flew past the Luap Nor barrier...

it's kind of like light speed I guess.

Posted by: Sven S Blade a.k.a. El Assassin@sven10077 at February 03, 2015 01:36 PM (/4AZU)

82 Free Beacon @FreeBeacon

Obama Adviser to Speak at Qatar-Funded Think Tank http://goo.gl/puf8sV

Posted by: Costanza Defense at February 03, 2015 01:34 PM (ZPrif)

Got's to drum up some anti-Bibi $$$.

Posted by: Golfman in NC at February 03, 2015 01:36 PM (GqEzX)

83 Drudge links infowars all the time. Do we shun him because of that?

Posted by: gm at February 03, 2015 01:36 PM (K0tm3)

84 WWGWD? What would George Washington do?

I'm a bit torn on this issue. Mostly due to my degraded sense that "government is here to help." I no longer trust my government, which could possibly be earned back if people of true integrity were running it. But that seems off in the distance, and maybe not ever attainable again. I don't want them to have power over me, to the extent they don't already. That said, I believe in vaccinations. They have(had) virtually eradicated measles and other diseases from the US. That's a pretty good record, if you ask me.

Posted by: Lady In Black at February 03, 2015 01:37 PM (6C3ns)

85 I heard Rand Paul on the Howie Carr radio show several weeks ago. I was previously open-minded about Paul, but not after that performance. Paul would say something, Carr would then ask Paul about what he just said, and Paul would then deny he said what he just said. Repeatedly. Paul was argumentative and petulant. Any Paul supporters should get off this crazy train NOW.

Posted by: Family Goy at February 03, 2015 01:37 PM (7u7u7)

86 "I guess I'm just bothered at the Pauls' relentless courting of the
paranoid right/left, the fringey cadre of people who drift easily from
being LaRouchian Democrats to being John Birch Society Republicans. It's
a group for which the dominant political position is a belief in dark
conspiracies of all sorts."

In the last six years I have become a lot less critical of belief in dark conspiracies. Nevertheless, it will be a while before I am ready to listen to more than two minutes of Alex Jones.

Posted by: Obnoxious A-Hole at February 03, 2015 01:37 PM (KDbAT)

87 Your mileage may differ on this, but I find Rand Paul's actual words not all that bothersome; what bothers me is that he, like his father, is absolutely determined to flatter the paranoias of a a dark and weird fringe.

Ding ding ding ding ding.

Why is he talking to Alex Jones in the first place? It would bother the hell out of me to learn that Jindal or Cruz or Walker would had done so and I would think less of them. (By the by, if they have, I do want to know that)

I try very hard not to impute Ron's views to Rand but I think the evidence is mounting that it is fair to question just how far the fruit has fallen from the tree.

As you noted, ace, it's not the content so much as the context, including who Alex Jones is and who Ron Paul is, that makes it so worrisome.

For example, my co-worker saying hey you have a sec we need to talk has a very different implication than my boss saying hey you have a sec we need to talk.

Posted by: alexthechick - The left one is Punch the right one is Judy at February 03, 2015 01:37 PM (mf5HN)

88 Damn shame when they aren't allowed into schools, though,

I fail to see the problem with this. Get the kids out of the leftist indoctrination centers known as public schools. Perfect.

Posted by: GMan at February 03, 2015 01:38 PM (sxq57)

89 I don't agree with either Paul all the time, but at least the try and side with liberty. I also don't understand some of the constant pejoratives on this site aimed at those who don't buy the company line. That group is growing as Quigley's Illusion of Choice plays out, right in front of our eyes with mounting evidence. As for vaccines, I notice the jab everybody crowd gets real quiet when anybody mentions the Vaccine Court, not to mention the "Special Masters".

Posted by: @koenigjojo at February 03, 2015 01:38 PM (ASn1R)

90 If the government can require child seats for automobiles and start mandating minimum requirements for lunches at school, they can sure as hell require that students not be allowed to expose their fellow students to potentially fatal diseases. As was said elsewhere, "If my child can't bring peanut butter to school because of the risk to those with allergies, your child shouldn't be allowed to bring highly communicable diseases, either."

Posted by: Drumwaster at February 03, 2015 01:39 PM (trb6f)

91 @51 I'm sorry but this is a dumb issue. The measles vaccine is not some experimental drug, it has been around for decades and it has been proven safe in the overwhelming number of cases and it has saved thousands and thousands of lives.

You have a right to not have your children vaccinated. But then you forfeit the right to have them interact with the rest of the population at large.

Your choice.
-------------------------------

My sister's pretty pissed off at the anti-vaccers right now. She's had the MMR twice, and it didn't take (a known, but very rare thing). And she went to Disneyland a few weeks ago...

Long story short, she came down with measles. She wouldn't have even known what it was if it weren't for the publicity of the Disneyland outbreak, as the doctor didn't recognize it. The doctor had likely never seen it before. But the publicity from the outbreak caused them to do a blood test, and the test came back positive for measles. Fortunately there were no further complications (unlike what happened to Roald Dahl's unfortunate daughter), and afaik no one has caught it from her. But it was a very unpleasant experience for her.

Posted by: junior at February 03, 2015 01:39 PM (UWFpX)

92 nd sometimes you want to not be the first one to get a new procedure, you want to see if it works well before you choose.

This notion that people can choose not to be first could also be tied into letting people choose to be first: that many treatments are forbidden, even to dying patients--even to the point of refusing pain-killers to terminal patients so they won't get addicted.

Posted by: Stephen Price Blair at February 03, 2015 01:39 PM (J0IP0)

93 I think in a lot of cases it boils down to dollars and cents. Some parents don't have the money to pay, and will grasp at any bizzare theory to justify their not spending the money.

I'm okay with the medical community having a discussion about safety, but not politicians.

Posted by: se pa moron at February 03, 2015 01:39 PM (zxQ4h)

94 Had Infowars already earned their Master Crank status in '09?

Posted by: major major major major at February 03, 2015 01:29 PM (nM3da)

Alex Jones earned that in the mid 90's with his Buildaburgers and Bohemian Grove stuff

Posted by: The Dude at February 03, 2015 01:39 PM (SyKbw)

95 83 Drudge links infowars all the time. Do we shun him because of that?
Posted by: gm at February 03, 2015 01:36 PM (K0tm3)

i find it annoying, for sure

Posted by: HoboJerk, The State Loves You at February 03, 2015 01:39 PM (FA3Z7)

96 You should see the videos InfoWars produced during the Bush years -- Skull & Bones and Halliburton are coming to get you! Now it's commies and marxists. When a Republican wins again it'll be the military-industrial complex and Big Oil coming at you again.

Alex Jones isn't in the business of philosophical consistency. He's in the business of draining high-functioning paranoids of their welfare checks.

Posted by: Costanza Defense at February 03, 2015 01:40 PM (ZPrif)

97 Barack Obama is a SCOAMT.

Posted by: AllenG (DedicatedTenther) - TrueCon at February 03, 2015 01:40 PM (kff5f)

98 I saw Vaccine Court open for Megadeath back in 2012

Posted by: Roy at February 03, 2015 01:40 PM (VndSC)

99

Rand Paul/Typhoid Mary 2016

Posted by: Laurie David's Cervix at February 03, 2015 01:40 PM (kdS6q)

100 I think in a lot of cases it boils down to dollars and cents.

Lolno. The majority of the people refusing have plenty of money.

Posted by: GMan at February 03, 2015 01:41 PM (sxq57)

101 OT
I'm sorry but I'm sick of this state & so is my older brother.
He's been saying it's time to move. I say NC or TX & I want a Red State.
40 inches of snow & single digit temps in 6 days did it for him.

He wants to go where there will be dry heat in summer, AZ or New Mexico.

Horde?

Posted by: Carol at February 03, 2015 01:41 PM (sj3Ax)

102 As long as we aren't talking about Marshall Law. I hear on Facebook that that is the real problem.

All this talk about Martial Law, on the other hand, I mean who doesn't love Kung Fu?

Posted by: wooga at February 03, 2015 01:41 PM (HoRFj)

103 Joe McCarthy was effectively smeared by the news media because of his bullying manner. His message was ignored because the messenger was vilified.

Richard Nixon's political career was destroyed in the same way and any good he might have accomplished discredited even though he worked with a Democrat congress to give the democrats everything they wanted; OSHA, EPA for example.

The liberal left would not accept Robert Bork for the Supreme Court and his career was destroyed over allegations of sexual innuendo.

The left tried that same tactic with Reagan and it didn't work because people liked Reagan and liked what he said.

The left destroyed Sarah Palin because they can not tolerate an effective spokesperson who challenges liberal orthodoxy.

Now, Ron Paul/Rand Paul have been so effectively smeared by the liberal media that even when Rand says something demonstrably true and something you agree with you still discredit the message because the credibility of the messenger has been destroyed.

Saying something that is true suddenly becomes "I guess I'm just bothered at the Pauls' relentless courting of the paranoid right/left, the fringey cadre of people who drift easily from being LaRouchian Democrats to being John Birch Society Republicans. It's a group for which the dominant political position is a belief in dark conspiracies of all sorts."

Because anyone who is not a true leftist is a nutcase extremist. That is where we are in this country, and there will be a war over it before it's over.

Posted by: Horatio Bologna at February 03, 2015 01:42 PM (kUNiC)

104 MMR non-vaccination puts others at direct, deadly risk. Therefore it - as a personal choice - exceeds the boundaries of personal effect and can be a cause for death, paralysis, and sickness in others. This is the same as spraying OTHER PEOPLE with biowaste - a decision that directly affects the lives, health, and safety of others. Thus, in this limited case, MMR "objectors" can and should be hanged for murder if and when they infect others.

Posted by: Inspector Cussword at February 03, 2015 01:42 PM (scgac)

105 Turns out the Birchers were right about Fluoride.
Posted by: Boss Moss at February 03, 2015 01:32 PM (hlbmD)

No, they weren't. There is no plan afoot to manipulate the public via flouridated water and sublminally generated radio waves for which the constant wearing of aluminum foil beanies is the only effective countermeasure.

Posted by: Boris Von Schlock, Agent of the Illuminati at February 03, 2015 01:42 PM (CAJL/)

106 He wants to go where there will be dry heat in summer, AZ or New Mexico.

AZ, so you can vote out McCain!

Posted by: Turd Ferguson at February 03, 2015 01:42 PM (VAsIq)

107 All I know is that this country is broken. It has snapped like a dry twig. We're getting a glimpse of what utter chaos will be like. No one will trust anyone anymore. It's what the left has been dreaming about for decades. And I don't think an election in 2016 is going to quell this maddness.

Posted by: Baraka O at February 03, 2015 01:42 PM (/HX7u)

108 I saw Martial Law open for The Justice Brothers, The Filmore 1972

Posted by: Misanthropic Humanitrian at February 03, 2015 01:43 PM (/GgDU)

109 93 I think in a lot of cases it boils down to dollars and cents.

And silver dimes!

Posted by: El Ron Paul at February 03, 2015 01:43 PM (HoRFj)

110 The only thing consistent for InfoWars is that behind the surface threat -- Halliburton or Big Oil or Campus Commies or Marxists -- is the real power of the evil banksters (hint: jooooos).

That's how he can scream for 8 years against Bush-Cheney-Halliburton and now scream for 8 years against Obama-Clinton-Communists.

He'll turn on a dime the next time a Republican wins.

Posted by: Costanza Defense at February 03, 2015 01:43 PM (ZPrif)

111 Disneyland is worse than any cruise ship for this. Tens of thousands of people from various countries, with varying vaccination policies (If any). The disease vector is likely foreign.

Wringing hands about Americans is thus moot. Even if you got the vaccination, a percentage will still catch the disease.

Disneyworld is probably even worse. All day, every day is like standing in the lunch line at the UN.

Good luck getting a common "herd immunity" there.

Posted by: Blue Hen at February 03, 2015 01:43 PM (Spluw)

112 s. Thus, in this limited case, MMR "objectors" can and should be hanged for murder if and when they infect others.

Now, see. I'm going to tell you right now that if you try to force me to have ANYTHING done to my kid, you'd better bring a bunch of guys with guns, because I'll shoot the first fuckers through the door.

Posted by: GMan at February 03, 2015 01:43 PM (sxq57)

113 He wants to go where there will be dry heat in summer, AZ or New Mexico.

Horde?
Posted by: Carol at February 03, 2015 01:41 PM (sj3Ax)

Oh cmon, where's your sense of adventure? Another 2 storms hitting in the next week!

Exciting, no?

Posted by: mynewhandle at February 03, 2015 01:44 PM (AkOaV)

114 "WWGWD? What would George Washington do?"

He did a mass smallpox inoculation of the Continental Army.

Posted by: Mikey NTH - Paranoia Punch with Electrolytes at the Outrage Outlet! at February 03, 2015 01:44 PM (hLRSq)

115 OT, but this is disgraceful.

NY Daily News Posts Graphic Photos Of Islamic State Burning Pilot Alive, Blurred Image Of Mohammed Cartoon

WZ: http://shar.es/1otQdU

It's okay to show images of the torture porn savagery carried out by ISIS, but not okay to hurt their feelings.

Posted by: MWR, Proud Tea(rrorist) Party Assault Hobbit & Vaginassassin, aka Beth at February 03, 2015 01:44 PM (4df7R)

116 quell this madness

Emo Band Name!

Posted by: Turd Ferguson at February 03, 2015 01:44 PM (VAsIq)

117 Furthermore, if Rand Paulspeaking to InfoWars in goddamn 2009 is a deal-breaker, then why the hell isn't Scankle's cackle of "We're going to take things away from you for the common good" being hung around her neck?

I'm no Paulbot, but if he's going to be crucified for something he said six years ago, then by God, I want everything any Dem has said since they learned to talk jammed back down their throats.

Posted by: Mary Poppins Practically Perfect Piercing at February 03, 2015 01:44 PM (zF6Iw)

118 I have also received several pro-life mailings at my home from Sen Paul. My opinion is that he's trying to flatter and lock up the votes of groups of people that traditional politicians, even traditional politicians on the right, tend to discount and ignore.

He doesn't make a big dealio out of it, but he is quietly tending to these voters in order to get them on his side.

Not that there's anything wrong with that. And under Prezy Barky I have also found myself tending to distrust anything that comes out of a politician's pie hole.

Posted by: Boots at February 03, 2015 01:44 PM (l9mF2)

119 If the fed can come up with the crap argument that compels me to buy health insurance or force me to pay a penalty or tax as they call it. I can also be punished for not having car insurance on a car I drive. The whole no immunization thing has been proven fake, not wrong but fake. Time to break out the immunization gun.

Posted by: Picric at February 03, 2015 01:45 PM (QnQ+g)

120 >>>95 i find it annoying, for sure

Posted by: HoboJerk, The State Loves You at February 03, 2015 01:39 PM (FA3Z7)>>>

annoying, yes, and I never read it when I find myself unwittingly directed there, but I still read Drudge and he's still the king of hits despite it. Heck, Drudge probably keeps Alex Jones in business with all of the traffic he sends over, but I don't see some movement to excommunicate Drudge over it. And I don't see the GOP running Scalise out of leadership for talking to a David Duke group either (which I think is much worse).

Posted by: gm at February 03, 2015 01:45 PM (K0tm3)

121 >>My sister's pretty pissed off at the anti-vaccers right now. She's had the MMR twice, and it didn't take (a known, but very rare thing). And she went to Disneyland a few weeks ago...

I would be pissed too. No vaccine or drug is perfect but the US had pretty much had measles eliminated and now we are back dealing with a disease that we had conquered.

That's just dumb.

I'm all for freedom of the individual but as with all things your right to freedom is sacrosanct as long as it doesn't infringe on my rights. Sure, its always a balance but insisting on kids being vaccinated for easily preventable and highly contagious diseases is not the first step toward tyranny, it is a step toward a healthier and freer society.

Watch what happens to freedom if we start seeing real widespread outbreaks for diseases like this. The freakout and imposition of more government during the ebola freakout is a pretty good example.

Posted by: JackStraw at February 03, 2015 01:45 PM (g1DWB)

122 He wants to go where there will be dry heat in summer, AZ or New Mexico.

Depends a lot on what you mean by dry heat. I grew up in Michigan, went to school in New York; even twenty years of living in San Diego didn't make me think Austin/Round Rock is humid, but people here complain about it. I first came to visit when the temperatures were above a hundred; I had no problem with it, because it wasn't (to me) humid.

Drove a couple hours east to Houston, and the humidity went crazy. (So like the doctor said, "don't do that".)

Posted by: Stephen Price Blair at February 03, 2015 01:46 PM (J0IP0)

123 >>>I heard Rand Paul on the Howie Carr radio show
several weeks ago. I was previously open-minded about Paul, but not
after that performance. Paul would say something, Carr would then ask
Paul about what he just said, and Paul would then deny he said what he
just said. Repeatedly. Paul was argumentative and petulant. Any Paul
supporters should get off this crazy train NOW.

Posted by: Family Goy at February 03, 2015 01:37 PM (7u7u7)<<<

Was just trying to find that (here it is -- http://tinyurl.com/plykmuf).

He made himself into quite an ass. Getting chippy when Howie calls him on his comment about the "crazy regimes in the Mid-East" and then when the callers wanted to make note that he he wasn't answering Howie's question, he got pissy and started insulting the callers.

Posted by: Art Mullen's Marshal stiffy at February 03, 2015 01:46 PM (f8y+G)

124 because I'll shoot the first fuckers through the door.
Posted by: GMan at February 03, 2015 01:43 PM (sxq57)

Cmon Joe Biden, don't forget the 4 rules of gun safety.

Posted by: mynewhandle at February 03, 2015 01:46 PM (AkOaV)

125 Disneyland is worse than any cruise ship for this. Tens of thousands of
people from various countries, with varying vaccination policies (If
any).

I don't remember where I read that the Disneyland measles epidemic is a strain currently hitting Indonesia, Dubai, and Qatar, but a quick search turned up a bunch of legitimate news sites reporting the same.

I found that interesting.

Posted by: HR needs donuts at February 03, 2015 01:46 PM (ZKzrr)

126 He's stuck cleaning up all that snow! And sick of it.

Posted by: Carol at February 03, 2015 01:47 PM (sj3Ax)

127 "He wants to go where there will be dry heat in summer, AZ or New Mexico.

Horde?"

Excellent places. NM is more purple but definitely a better political climate than MA. Both are beautiful. Albuquerque or Tucson areas I'd suggest if you want to stay around some people and hospitals.

If not, I'd say Ruidoso NM or Globe, AZ.

Posted by: Gen. Ripper at February 03, 2015 01:47 PM (LA7Cm)

128 Cmon Joe Biden, don't forget the 4 rules of gun safety.

Don't worry, you stupid fuck, they'd be aimed shots.

Posted by: GMan at February 03, 2015 01:47 PM (sxq57)

129
Flouride is a commie plot designed to destroy our essence.

I only drink rain water and pure grain alcohol.

Posted by: Gen. Buck Turgidson at February 03, 2015 01:47 PM (JtwS4)

130 103
Joe McCarthy was effectively smeared by the news media because of his
bullying manner. His message was ignored because the messenger was
vilified.

Posted by: Horatio Bologna at February 03, 2015 01:42 PM (kUNiC)

Tailgunner Joe was vilified by the MFM in the 50s because the MFM along with the pointy headed liberals had already started drifting to the left and the communists as early as the 30s. And he was right, Whorywood was overrun with commies in the 50s.

Posted by: Vic at February 03, 2015 01:47 PM (wlDny)

131 The government doesn't help combat the conspiracy theorists by acting irrationally, incompetently, illogically, and/or malevolently in any number of matters. Even if you're not a 9/11 Troofer (and I'm not one), it's hard to deny that Obama and Co. are using a Cloward-Piven strategy for securing political power.

Posted by: PabloD at February 03, 2015 01:47 PM (W+7p8)

132 I want everything any Dem has said since they learned to talk jammed back down their throats.

----

I'm in favor of this.

Posted by: Turd Ferguson at February 03, 2015 01:47 PM (VAsIq)

133 Get away, General!

Posted by: Ricardo Kill at February 03, 2015 01:48 PM (LA7Cm)

134
Rand Paul 2016: In the Mouth Hold Ye Fast A Coin of Gold, Lest Ye by Miasmatic Fever be Afflicted

Posted by: Laurie David's Cervix at February 03, 2015 01:48 PM (kdS6q)

135 You gotta get 'em dip-tet boosters yearly or else they'll develop lockjaw and night vision

Posted by: Dot at February 03, 2015 01:48 PM (WDySP)

136 off slime sock

Posted by: Soona at February 03, 2015 01:48 PM (/HX7u)

137 Ok, I'll jump in here and piss some people off.

How about we wait a little while before we start the slash and burn of every person that might decide to run for president?

No candidate is ever going to satisfy all of us all the time. But we wont even wait until they declare before we start gutting them.

The stupid party politicians dont have to very many stupid things before they are equal to the stupid party voters.

Circular firing squads? Hell yeah we invented them!

Posted by: Suppressed Flasher at February 03, 2015 01:48 PM (X+nFp)

138 Texas won't be blue for some time, Arizona and New Mexico are pretty much there already.

Posted by: Garrett at February 03, 2015 01:49 PM (Hv3LR)

139 I find what Luap Dnar (I'm pretty sure we'll have to deal with the Aul-pay Ots-bay again) said to be factually accurate while still deceptive.

Yes, technically, a government that has the authority to require vaccinations has a great deal of power over other facets of your life.

HOWEVER, at some point a government has a responsibility to the greater body of the people than to you and your personal objections to [whatever]. If (and I'll grant this is a great big f*cking "if") it can be shown that removing your "Right to be wrong" in a particular case is necessary for the body of the people, then *some* level of government needs that authority.

I believe the greater the authority needed, the closer it should be to the people (that is: I believe in Federalism).

That said, we all implicitly except this idea that the government has not just the authority, but the responsibility to remove your "Right to be wrong" in particular cases.

Drunken driving is one example. Compulsory education is another. Those are both "general" examples. It is obvious that we are doing exactly that (removing, or at least punishing, one's "Right to be wrong") on a specific basis when we incarcerate criminals.

So the question then becomes "is a particular disease enough of a threat to the general population that it warrants such power being wielded."

And I admit I honestly don't *know.* I suspect it is in specific cases. Polio. Measles. In most cases, no.

But to treat this as a single sweeping question- "should we mandate vaccines" is actually a great disservice to the debate, and lends itself to pillory and name-calling.

Posted by: AllenG (DedicatedTenther) - TrueCon at February 03, 2015 01:49 PM (kff5f)

140
All this talk about Martial Law, on the other hand, I mean who doesn't love Kung Fu?
............
Well...

Posted by: Bangkok hotel maid at February 03, 2015 01:49 PM (wAQA5)

141

le sigh...

French soldiers attacked outside Jewish Center in Nice (neece). Knife attack.

One of the muslim attackers might've been a man who was just arrested and released.

Posted by: Soothsayer at February 03, 2015 01:49 PM (kgXbV)

142 At what point does an outbreak of an infectious disease (e.g. measles) reach the threshold of being an epidemic with substantial public health implications? Depends on a lot of factors (vaccination rate in the general population or herd immunity, virulence of the disease or how easily it is spread, lethality of the disease, socioeconomic circumstances such as housing and sanitation, etc, etc)

There are arguments to be made in favor of a nationwide approach to containing an epidemic with mandatory quarantine of identified cases and mass immunizations. The current measles outbreak in western states does not come anywhere near this threshold.

The risk-benefit analysis of vaccinating an individual also rests on a number of factors (age, immune system, other health conditions such as asthma cancer or diabetes, likelihood of exposure, occupation, etc). Most anti-vaxxers I have run across tend to rely on a simplistic faith-like superstitious basis rather than a science-based analysis of their own risks and benefits.

Posted by: Muldoon, a solid man at February 03, 2015 01:50 PM (NeFrd)

143 The Libertarians would do well to STOP all this conspiracy nonsense, and while they're at it, STOP the constant belittling and name-calling of anyone who doesn't agree with them 100% on everything.

That's no way to build a party. You don't insult those you want to attract.

I am increasingly Libertarian-ish on many issues but I just cannot support the Libertarian Party as it now stands.

Posted by: Citizen X at February 03, 2015 01:50 PM (7ObY1)

144 I'm sure the DNC/media are loving the fact we're actually talking about vaccines this much.

Posted by: brak at February 03, 2015 01:50 PM (Tj+s6)

145 Gen. Ripper,
Thank you. I put down on pad of paper. Do you in area?

Posted by: Carol at February 03, 2015 01:50 PM (sj3Ax)

146 I mock InfoWars, but the people saying that's disqualifying should remember that many would say anyone talking to this site is disqualifying.

This site is always one rent-a-cooch joke away from being officially labeled a hate site by SPLC.

Posted by: Costanza Defense at February 03, 2015 01:50 PM (ZPrif)

147 "He wants to go where there will be dry heat in summer, AZ or New Mexico.

Horde?"

New Mexico is awesome. I love it there.

Never been to AZ.

Posted by: AllenG (DedicatedTenther) - TrueCon at February 03, 2015 01:50 PM (kff5f)

148 My sister's pretty pissed off at the anti-vaccers right now. She's had the MMR twice, and it didn't take (a known, but very rare thing). And she went to Disneyland a few weeks ago...

Long story short, she came down with measles. She wouldn't have even known what it was if it weren't for the publicity of the Disneyland outbreak, as the doctor didn't recognize it. The doctor had likely never seen it before. But the publicity from the outbreak caused them to do a blood test, and the test came back positive for measles. Fortunately there were no further complications (unlike what happened to Roald Dahl's unfortunate daughter), and afaik no one has caught it from her. But it was a very unpleasant experience for her.
Posted by: junior at February 03, 2015 01:39 PM (UWFpX)

Serious question because I don't know. Will she develop immunity now that she has it?

Re: Drudge and linking InfoWars. Yes, it bothers the hell out of me that Drudge does that. It's like zerohedge links. I want to know that the link is going there before I click over. Hell, I want to know the link is going there when I see the article headline.

Posted by: alexthechick - The left one is Punch the right one is Judy at February 03, 2015 01:51 PM (mf5HN)

149
I very much want to like Rand.

The Howie Carr thing is unfortunate if it was as bad as all that, because Howie is a pretty good barometer.

*sighs*

Scott Walker looked good at that thing the other weekend.

Posted by: Bandersnatch at February 03, 2015 01:51 PM (JtwS4)

150 Whole lotta preverts in this thread.

Posted by: Col. Bat Guano at February 03, 2015 01:51 PM (GuwT9)

151 Don't worry, you stupid fuck, they'd be aimed shots.
Posted by: GMan at February 03, 2015 01:47 PM (sxq57)

I'm just saying you ignore rule #3 at your peril. What if you missed and hit your car? ALWAYS shoot through a window so you can see beyond your target, never through a door.

3. Always be sure of your target and what is beyond it.

Posted by: mynewhandle at February 03, 2015 01:51 PM (AkOaV)

152 After Palin - I'm done chasing this crap. This posts is basically "I agree with Rand Paul on everything he said, but this is crazy!"

Stop acting like a 12 year old girl(or boy that thinks he's a girl) and grow up. We fall for this stupid shit all the time.

Posted by: Reality Man at February 03, 2015 01:51 PM (9AQdP)

153 "Thank you. I put down on pad of paper. Do you in area? "

Sorry, Carol, that was me. Been to both many a time and I would live in Ruidoso in a heartbeat.

Posted by: Ricardo Kill at February 03, 2015 01:51 PM (LA7Cm)

154 but the problem is that I have lost a lotof trust in org's like the CDC since the Ebola nonsense. I think theyoverreact and are swung by political stuff, when they should be firm and sciency. That is not a good thing.

*********

This is a good point. And look, I'm a parent that's got my kids loaded up with every vaccine available (excepting the flu, which I explained yesterday is a yearly crap shoot). But it makes it very hard to argue against the anti-vax mindset when even the scientists have been shown to regularly lie and/or mislead the public for grant money or to advance political positions or gain status. And that's all before even considering the obvious BS you get from politicians.

Posted by: Mandy P., lurking lurker who lurks at February 03, 2015 01:51 PM (KkVB6)

155 "80
You have a right to not have your children vaccinated. But then you
forfeit the right to have them interact with the rest of the population
at large.

Your choice.

--

Except we have no way of enforcing that. No way to prevent them from going to DisneyLand or the ER waiting room.

Posted by: Costanza Defense at February 03, 2015 01:36 PM (ZPrif)"

Well, that is a question for lawyers. Can the owner of a public accommodation establish a policy of denying entry to people who are not vaccinated if they do not have a medical reason (e.g.too young for inoculation or suffering a medical condition that makes inoculation dangerous or deadly)? While the owner would be relying on the honesty of his customers, a customer who relied on the promise of herd immunity in that establishment would seem to have good grounds to sue the shit out of someone who was not inoculated but went there anyway while contagious. I am thinking in particular of Disneyland and the current measles outbreak.

The prospect of being reduced to penury by lawsuits might change the risk/reward equation for some of the anti-vaccine crowd. I think that wherever possible it is better to associate the cost of decisions with the people who make those decisions rather than allowing them to free ride and impose the costs of their decisions on others.

Posted by: Obnoxious A-Hole at February 03, 2015 01:52 PM (KDbAT)

156 103 ....The left tried that same tactic with Reagan and it didn't work because people liked Reagan and liked what he said.....

---------------------------------------

Reagan had a long lifetime in front of the American public before he ran for President. He'd been a Hollywood star, he'd been president of his union (SAG), and then served 2 terms as Gov of California.

He could outthink the MSM because he knew how to do it better than they did. Also, he was a very familiar face to most Americans and smears couldn't stick to him, because his public persona went back to the 1930's or early '40's.

Posted by: Boots at February 03, 2015 01:52 PM (l9mF2)

157 I am in NC, Carol no complaints here, but I like Tennessee, or Texas myself.

Posted by: Picric at February 03, 2015 01:53 PM (QnQ+g)

158 I am increasingly Libertarian-ish on many issues but I just cannot support the Libertarian Party as it now stands.
Posted by: Citizen X at February 03, 2015 01:50 PM (7ObY1)

Oh yeah the LP is definitely full of asshats.

Posted by: mynewhandle at February 03, 2015 01:53 PM (AkOaV)

159
I hear CNN and other outlets use a lot of words today to describe what ISIS did: horrific, disgusting, appalling, etc.

I'm not hearing evil.

Posted by: Soothsayer at February 03, 2015 01:53 PM (kgXbV)

160 I would live in Ruidoso in a heartbeat.

If I couldn't live in TX, I probably wouldn't live in Ruidoso, but I'd live in Cloudcroft (which isn't too far).

Posted by: AllenG (DedicatedTenther) - TrueCon at February 03, 2015 01:53 PM (kff5f)

161 It's a group for which the dominant political position is a belief in dark conspiracies of all sorts.

Posted by: Ace at 01:19 PM

_____________

Just cuz they're paranoid doesn't mean they're wrong.

10 years ago, yeah it was a luntaic fringe. Today, they're no so crazy anymore, given all the shit Obama's pulled.

Posted by: Mr. Moo Moo at February 03, 2015 01:53 PM (0LHZx)

162 missed and hit your car? ALWAYS shoot through a window so you can see beyond your target, never through a door.

Apparently you can't read, dumbass. I said that I would shoot the fuckers that were coming through the door.

Not that I would be shooting through the door.

Posted by: GMan at February 03, 2015 01:54 PM (sxq57)

163
I want to know that the link is going there before I click over. Hell, I want to know the link is going there when I see the article headline.

If you hover over a link before clicking the website shows up at the bottom left of your screen.

Posted by: Bandersnatch at February 03, 2015 01:54 PM (JtwS4)

164 Posted by: Soothsayer at February 03, 2015 01:53 PM (kgXbV)

How about Islamic?

Posted by: Suppressed Flasher at February 03, 2015 01:54 PM (X+nFp)

165 I want to thank Presdent Obama for working so hard to bring down the unemployment rate to 5.6%. Good job sir and a lot better when the idiot Bush had unemployment numbers around 15%. Bush lied and the economy died !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Posted by: Mary Clogginstien From Brattleboro, VT at February 03, 2015 01:54 PM (Sd++4)

166 Walker and Paul both need someone to get those hairdos under control. Mitt needs to loan them his hair or stylist.

Posted by: The Jackhole at February 03, 2015 01:54 PM (6/J77)

167 I am increasingly Libertarian-ish on many issues but I just cannot support the Libertarian Party as it now stands.
Posted by: Citizen X at February 03, 2015 01:50 PM (7ObY1

I'm a man without a party, the GOP and the Libertarian Parties, don't want me. I don't want them either. I guess I'm the male version of Goldilocks only I haven't found one just right.

Posted by: Misanthropic Humanitrian at February 03, 2015 01:54 PM (/GgDU)

168 AHOY!

Posted by: Palinisto! at February 03, 2015 01:54 PM (Hv3LR)

169
I'm not hearing evil.
....................
You want to talk about Republicans?

Posted by: Dr. Hussein, Measles and Ebola specialist at February 03, 2015 01:55 PM (wAQA5)

170 "25 people died after having received the swine flu vaccination in 1976; I doubt it's true that each of those deaths can be traced directly to the vaccine, "

The vaccine is a weakened form of the disease, or a very close cousin, that stimulates your immune system to develop antibodies to isolate and destroy it. The pattern of these antibodies is preserved by the automatic immune system, which is why you are better prepared to meet the strong free-range disease than somebody who never had the disease nor the vaccine.

You should not doubt it's true that the medical community, after receiving the report of a death from symptoms closely related to the disease, determined that the patient succumbed to the vaccine. They spent some effort to narrow the reported cases down to 25.

Posted by: Chris_Balsz at February 03, 2015 01:55 PM (kTWS+)

171 Apparently you can't read, dumbass. I said that I would shoot the fuckers that were coming through the door.

Not that I would be shooting through the door.
Posted by: GMan at February 03, 2015 01:54 PM (sxq57)

Jeez youre a dick, huh?

It was a joke, mr internet tough guy

Posted by: mynewhandle at February 03, 2015 01:55 PM (AkOaV)

172 Never let an ISIS go to waste.

Posted by: Barry at February 03, 2015 01:55 PM (hHFOx)

173 From the previous thread.

NAPALM the MFer's. It cheap, it works.

Send over about 10 C-130's loaded with Napalm. Drop it on any place ISIS controls.

ANY PLACE.

Posted by: Nip Sip at February 03, 2015 01:55 PM (0FSuD)

174 Ladies and gentlemen, lend me your hair

Posted by: Scott walker at February 03, 2015 01:56 PM (6/J77)

175 Looks like he got fed up and said fuck it, I'm out.

Bill Quick @DailyPundit 24m24 minutes ago
Jeff Goldstein Closing Up Shop At Protein Wisdom http://www.dailypundit.com/?p=97399

Posted by: Costanza Defense at February 03, 2015 01:56 PM (ZPrif)

176 Posted by: Nip Sip at February 03, 2015 01:55 PM (0FSuD

Nip, you got time to be leading one of the branches?

Posted by: Misanthropic Humanitrian at February 03, 2015 01:56 PM (/GgDU)

177 I'm not hearing evil.
Posted by: Soothsayer at February 03, 2015 01:53 PM (kgXbV)

The Left views 'evil' as an archaic, manicheansocial and cultural construct, too absolutist for their refined, oh-so-nuanced tastes.

Posted by: Boris Von Schlock, Agent of the Illuminati at February 03, 2015 01:57 PM (CAJL/)

178 Ladies and gentlemen, lend me your hair
Posted by: Scott walker

You're welcome to it.

Posted by: Trey Gowdy at February 03, 2015 01:57 PM (GuwT9)

179 >>>He made himself into quite an ass. Getting chippy when Howie calls him on his comment about the "crazy regimes in the Mid-East" and then when the callers wanted to make note that he he wasn't answering Howie's question, he got pissy and started insulting the callers.
Posted by: Art Mullen's Marshal stiffy at February 03, 2015 01:46 PM (f8y+G)>>>

dude. It's clear that he knew he fucked up and misspoke by calling the countries crazy - he repeatedly called the the terrorists crazy. And howie went full douche playing gotcha "journalism."

Posted by: gm at February 03, 2015 01:57 PM (K0tm3)

180 I am increasingly Libertarian-ish on many issues but I just cannot support the Libertarian Party as it now stands.

Posted by: Citizen X at February 03, 2015 01:50 PM (7ObY1)

Yup.... but I can't support the Statist Crony Capitalism of the current Republican Party either...

We need a new term for those of us who want the Old Constitutional limits back...

But one that does NOT use the term Conservative (as in Constitutional Conservative)... because most people then automatically think of us as Republicans.

Constitutionalist?

Anti Federalist? (don't really want anything negative in a name though)...

Jefferson has been tagged as a RAAAAAcist... so Jeffersonian is sort of out...

We need a new 'label'.... one that neither supports the looney side of the Libertarian Party, nor the Statist side of the GOP.

Posted by: BB Wolf at February 03, 2015 01:57 PM (qh617)

181 Heh. Internet muscles are as funneh as beer muscles.

Posted by: Citizen X at February 03, 2015 01:57 PM (7ObY1)

182 Listening to this Rand Paul /Howie Carr interview.

Yikes. Howies not throwing softballs, but I mean... c'mon Rand, none of these questions are SUPER difficult.

Posted by: mynewhandle at February 03, 2015 01:57 PM (AkOaV)

183 Off, Illuminati sock.

Posted by: troyriser at February 03, 2015 01:57 PM (CAJL/)

184 Can the owner of a public accommodation establish a policy of denying entry to people who are not vaccinated if they do not have a medical reason

That would discriminate against illegal immigrants.

Posted by: Stephen Price Blair at February 03, 2015 01:57 PM (J0IP0)

185 You have the right not to be forcefully vaccinated.
Society may occasionally have a duty to keep you penned in with a flamethrower.

Posted by: DaveA at February 03, 2015 01:57 PM (DL2i+)

186 Alex Jones is a nut bag. Unfortunately our government is always expanding and doesn't seem to trust the citizenry. As a result some of Jones' conspiracies appear validated, at least to the paranoid.

I do think Paul does good work. He has brought forth some very logical bills to bring order back to D.C., Washington of course wanted nothing to do with them.

At this point, I'd rather have Paul, his sometimes kooky views, and his real desire to see less government, than republicans who talk smaller government, but have never voted to shrink anything.

Posted by: Sean at February 03, 2015 01:57 PM (o3U8H)

187 Poodle Power !

Posted by: Luap Dnar at February 03, 2015 01:57 PM (6/J77)

188 Again, note that the "anti-vax' crowd may not be our biggest problem.
1. Obama opened the borders and what came over is preading whateverinHELL they have. More kids have died from enerovirus than measles. Hundreds more are partially paralyzed, probably permanently.
2. The CDC won't even admit basic porotocol concerning the use of gloves and touching people.
3. jet travel means that SARS, ebolaand asian flu travel across continents within incubation times. Politics means that this isn't questioned.
4. Shitty government health care means that dozens of people die needlessly. See Toronto and how they botched handling SARS.

Posted by: Blue Hen at February 03, 2015 01:58 PM (Spluw)

189 BTW - my thought is that arguing that government is doing too many things doesn't exactly address the question of whether government should be doing a particular thing.

Posted by: Mikey NTH - Paranoia Punch with Electrolytes at the Outrage Outlet! at February 03, 2015 01:58 PM (hLRSq)

190 Posted by: BB Wolf at February 03, 2015 01:57 PM (qh617)

I'm with you, BB.

Howzabout The Freedom Party? Has that been taken?

Posted by: Citizen X at February 03, 2015 01:59 PM (7ObY1)

191 Posted by: gm at February 03, 2015 01:57 PM (K0tm3)

Yeah, the questions are tough'ish, but I mean... I'm not seeing "gotcha" questions beyond the "crazy" part, and even that was more of a follow up than a gotcha question.

Rand will get way worse from the liberal media.

Posted by: mynewhandle at February 03, 2015 01:59 PM (AkOaV)

192
Ladies and gentlemen, lend me your hair
Posted by: Scott walker
....................
Not a chance.

Posted by: Karl Rove at February 03, 2015 01:59 PM (wAQA5)

193 It's easy to hide the aluminum foil under that animal I normally wear on my head.

Posted by: Rand Paul at February 03, 2015 01:59 PM (f8y+G)

194
Gotta love these internet Rambos.

Posted by: Soothsayer at February 03, 2015 01:59 PM (kgXbV)

195 Howzabout The Freedom Party? Has that been taken?
Posted by: Citizen X at February 03, 2015 01:59 PM (7ObY1)

How about the regressive party? We can steal Maddox's image for it:
http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=regressive

Posted by: mynewhandle at February 03, 2015 01:59 PM (AkOaV)

196 I am increasingly Libertarian-ish on many issues but I just cannot support the Libertarian Party as it now stands.
Posted by: Citizen X at February 03, 2015 01:50 PM (7ObY1)

This. All of this.

Posted by: alexthechick - The left one is Punch the right one is Judy at February 03, 2015 02:00 PM (mf5HN)

197 The apple doesn't fall far from the flying saucer.

Posted by: Clutch Cargo at February 03, 2015 02:00 PM (sH832)

198 At this point, I'd rather have Paul, his sometimes kooky views, and his real desire to see less government, than republicans who talk smaller government, but have never voted to shrink anything.

----

My preference is for Paul to remain in the Senate.

Posted by: SH at February 03, 2015 02:00 PM (gmeXX)

199 Stephen Price Blair,
I've added to list.
Thank you.

Posted by: Carol at February 03, 2015 02:01 PM (sj3Ax)

200 As far as first step toward martial law goes, I just finished reading a biography of Edward R. Murrow, and he would agree, sort of:

"The right of dissent, or, if you prefer, the right to be wrong, is surely fundamental to the existence of a democratic society. That's the right that went first in every nation that stumbled down the trail toward totalitarianism."

Posted by: Stephen Price Blair at February 03, 2015 02:01 PM (J0IP0)

201 Posted by: BB Wolf at February 03, 2015 01:57 PM (qh617)

Resurrect the Federalists.

Posted by: AllenG (DedicatedTenther) - TrueCon at February 03, 2015 02:01 PM (kff5f)

202 The Bill of Rights We Were Serious About That Party

Posted by: Bandersnatch at February 03, 2015 02:01 PM (JtwS4)

203 BTW - my thought is that arguing that government is doing too many things doesn't exactly address the question of whether government should be doing a particular thing.

----

Maybe not, but it makes it harder to argue.

Posted by: SH at February 03, 2015 02:01 PM (gmeXX)

204 NAPALM the MFer's. It cheap, it works.

Send over about 10 C-130's loaded with Napalm. Drop it on any place ISIS controls.

-
Plus it's sort of a dip-your-toe-in-the swimming-pool-before-you-jump-in for Hell.

Posted by: The Great White Snark at February 03, 2015 02:01 PM (XUKZU)

205 >>Well, that is a question for lawyers. Can the owner of a public accommodation establish a policy of denying entry to people who are not vaccinated if they do not have a medical reason (e.g.too young for inoculation or suffering a medical condition that makes inoculation dangerous or deadly)? While the owner would be relying on the honesty of his customers, a customer who relied on the promise of herd immunity in that establishment would seem to have good grounds to sue the shit out of someone who was not inoculated but went there anyway while contagious. I am thinking in particular of Disneyland and the current measles outbreak.

It's also a job for the government, preferably local and state. We have long had laws mandating that children be vaccinated for various easily treatable diseases like measles, mumps, etc for admittance to schools. And not coincidentally, we had those diseases pretty much under control if not outright eliminated despite having Disneyland and the like. And these weren't federal laws but state and local ones.

The real culprit here is not so much the anti-vaxers in our midst, it is the mass migration we have been enduring under Obama. Remember the mysterious diseases that were popping up this past fall in schools? Not a coincidence that it happened right when Obama had opened up the floodgate on our southern border.

The left will try to blame this on Republicans despite the fact that the anti-vax is primarily a creation of the left but the truth is when you allow millions of people from 3rd world countries to invade your country this is one of the things you are going to see.

Posted by: JackStraw at February 03, 2015 02:01 PM (g1DWB)

206 trolling trolling trolling
Rawhide!

Free Beacon @FreeBeacon
Attention: @HillaryClinton Is an Ailing Third World Dictator http://goo.gl/6mmRfd

Posted by: Costanza Defense at February 03, 2015 02:01 PM (ZPrif)

207 Posted by: Obnoxious A-Hole at February 03, 2015 01:52 PM (KDbAT)

Pretty sure there is already case law on this somewhere...

Because schools USED to do this... you could not send your kids to school without the required shots....

but I bet its State Law.... not Federal on this...

Posted by: BB Wolf at February 03, 2015 02:02 PM (qh617)

208 187 Poodle Power !
Posted by: Luap Dnar at February 03, 2015 01:57 PM (6/J77

Thats my line
Posted by: John F'ing Kerry

Posted by: Misanthropic Humanitrian at February 03, 2015 02:02 PM (/GgDU)

209 I firmly believe in mandatory vaccines for certain diseases. Measles and Polio are prime examples of how we can eradicate deadly threats entirely through systematic vaccination. Vaccinating the herd is essential to protect the public and vaccines are safe statistically speaking. However, I am also opposed to government mandates. I am pro liberty. The government is stupid, corrupt, and inefficient. Do you want some un-elected bureaucrat forcing injections on your kids? So where do you draw the line? I personally don't believe Flu Vaccines are worthwhile and my family does not get them. Is the government within its right to force me and my kids to get a flu vaccine? What if science develops a vaccine against depression/lazyness/greed/homosexualty/aggression etc.? Im not an Info Wars subscriber, but population control is a pretty central theme in lots of the popular dystopian novels. How do you reconcile an individuals right to control their own person with the need to protect public safety.

Posted by: california red at February 03, 2015 02:02 PM (UyEG4)

210 We need a new 'label'.... one that neither supports the looney side of the Libertarian Party, nor the Statist side of the GOP.
Posted by: BB Wolf at February 03, 2015 01:57 PM (qh617)

------------------------------------------

There's always "The Rent is Too Damn High" party.

Posted by: Soona at February 03, 2015 02:02 PM (/HX7u)

211 We need a new 'label'.... one that neither supports the looney side of the Libertarian Party, nor the Statist side of the GOP.

And if I am elected
I promise the formation of a new party
A third party, the Wild Party!

Posted by: Alice Cooper at February 03, 2015 02:02 PM (W5DcG)

212 I'd prefer a simple constitutional party. A lot of problems can be solved by simply following the Constitution.

Posted by: SH at February 03, 2015 02:02 PM (gmeXX)

213 Vaccinations save lives and is vital to modern public health. I am in favor of mandatory vaccination with exceptions for those who cannot be vaccinated due to medical reasons

Which ones?
Why?
Would this list change? If so, for what reasons?
At what ages?
Who decides who gets what?
When an infant dies because of a vaccine, can the parents of that kid take your kid out and butcher them, you know, for balance?

Posted by: GMan at February 03, 2015 02:03 PM (sxq57)

214 I've added to list.

I forgot to mention, if you are looking to escape liberal policies, do not go to actual Austin (probably safest to avoid Travis County altogether, although there are some nice communities in Travis County but outside Austin proper).

Posted by: Stephen Price Blair at February 03, 2015 02:03 PM (J0IP0)

215 >>>Yikes. Howies not throwing softballs, but I mean... c'mon Rand, none of these questions are SUPER difficult.
Posted by: mynewhandle at February 03, 2015 01:57 PM (AkOaV)>>>

Probably wasn't expecting a full on adversarial interview as if he were on MSNBC and then once Howie went off on the "crazy countries," he probably knew the interview was fucked.

Posted by: gm at February 03, 2015 02:03 PM (K0tm3)

216 All of this bullshit vaccine stuff if the fault of the Clinton administration. I'm at the gym now but I'll post the reason later.

Posted by: Timon at February 03, 2015 02:03 PM (4dvZB)

217 The Lemon Party.

Posted by: Don Lemon at February 03, 2015 02:04 PM (Hv3LR)

218 https://twitter.com/redc1c4/status/562405452525604864

@ZekeJMiller he must be talking about himself his father...what an idiot. what part of PREVENTABLE disease is so hard to understand? #tcot

Posted by: redc1c4 at February 03, 2015 02:04 PM (pZtrP)

219 I very much want to like Rand.

-
I very much wanted to like John McCain but it didn't work out.

Posted by: The Great White Snark at February 03, 2015 02:05 PM (XUKZU)

220 You will never lose a nickel assuming that what the Obama regime says or does in nefarious and has nothing but your worst interests in mind.

Posted by: Jukin at February 03, 2015 02:05 PM (WGm5T)

221 I'm old enough to remember that my parents had to prove that I had all my vaccinations before I could start school and I got all my booster shots IN school.

Posted by: wrg500 at February 03, 2015 02:05 PM (C278+)

222 I have to ask... is someone suddenly pushing for national vaccination mandates? 'Cause if so- I missed that.

The correct answer to any vaccination question (from a politician) would seem to me to be this:

"Before vaccination was a common practice we had flu epidemics. Children were dying or being crippled from Polio. Measles was a menace. Whooping Cough killed its share, too.

So it seems fairly obvious that vaccinating your children is a good idea- and far outweighs any very rare risks associated with it.

Whether or not vaccines should be mandated is a different question, and not one for the Federal Government to address. We have not been granted that authority by the Constitution."

Posted by: AllenG (DedicatedTenther) - TrueCon at February 03, 2015 02:06 PM (kff5f)

223 Look, this is nuts. I have no interest in any kind of FEDERAL law mandating vaccination.

HOWEVER

If you want your kids to go to public school, they get vaccinated. Period. Or they don't go.

Its really that simple.

I keep seeing everyone all over saying this disease isn't so bad and that disease is all but eradicated. Bullshit. There is one reason and one reason only that these diseases have disappeared - near 100% vaccination rates.

At some point less than 100%, you end up with enough kids that are vulnerable, that can catch the disease, that some kids that aren't through the entire vaccination process, aren't as resistant as others, etc., that a disease that could be completely eradicated - isn't.

Again - the ONLY reason measles isn't a deadly disease in 2015, or shouldn't be, as it was 10 or 20 years ago, is because nearly everyone has been vaccinated.

It is amazing the degree to which people dismiss the efficacy of something that is a proven commodity and will allow for the absence of evidence of the danger of not vaccinating to be seen as evidence of the absence of vulnerability and danger.

Posted by: deadrody at February 03, 2015 02:06 PM (kj7T1)

224 Nip, you got time to be leading one of the branches?

Posted by: Misanthropic Humanitrian at February 03, 2015 01:56 PM (/GgDU)

Put me in Coach!

http://tinyurl.com/pj43b35

Posted by: Nip Sip at February 03, 2015 02:06 PM (0FSuD)

225 SPB,
Isn't it Austin DA that indicted Perry?

Posted by: Carol at February 03, 2015 02:06 PM (sj3Ax)

226 The Tupperware Party.

Posted by: Earl Silas Tupper at February 03, 2015 02:06 PM (W5DcG)

227 Posted by: Sean at February 03, 2015 01:57 PM (o3U8H

Yup.... lots of conspiracy nut jobs out there...

But... then...

Someone spies on a Reporters computer... clumsily...

Some Government flunky hacks into Congressional computers.

NSA IS both receiving, and keeping, data on us that its not supposed to have...

And we have a President who ignores the Law at whim....

As the Chinese curse says, we live in interesting times....

And the difference between a Conspiracy Nut... and someone who see clearly... seems to be becoming thinner and thinner...

Posted by: BB Wolf at February 03, 2015 02:06 PM (qh617)

228 >>>My preference is for Paul to remain in the Senate.
Posted by: SH at February 03, 2015 02:00 PM (gmeXX)>>>

my preference is for, wherever Rand Paul is, conservatives stop lynching and discrediting their allies. It's like how Obama conducts foreign policy and it's fucking asinine.

Posted by: gm at February 03, 2015 02:06 PM (K0tm3)

229 Sen. Rand Paul (R., Ky.) said during a 2009 interview with Alex Jones'
InfoWars that mandatory vaccines for illnesses such as the swine flu
could be an early step toward "martial law," and said the procedures
have a long history of lethal side effects.

"First" step? Oh sweetums, we passed that pole a loooooooooooong time ago. As to the rest, meh. He doesn't say too much that ought to be controversial (measure risks v. benefits, people should make their own decisions, etc.) but because a bunch of libs in deep-blue precincts won't vax their special snowflakes because AUTISM!* then of course this is the fault of the GOP, because that's what the media does.

*FD: my youngest child, now 17-1/2, is autistic. We're in the process of working out legal guardianship for him. Good times. Good. Times.

Posted by: DocJ at February 03, 2015 02:07 PM (zrsn3)

230 Posted by: california red at February 03, 2015 02:02 PM (UyEG4)

Well that's just it, isn't it?

Once you open up the pandoras box of forced unwanted medical procedures, how do you close it again?

Especially when the argument melds in to the "well, if the taxpayers have to subsidize your health care through obamacare, we get a say in what you do and how you live your life"

I was thinking more along the lines of cigarettes. How long until the government mandates smokers go on the nicorette patch? After all, "society" suffers when a smoker gets ill. Tax payers and premium payers have to bear the cost for their COPD.

But we'll see.

And yes, I'm also uncomfortable with how conspiracy'y I've been thinking about these issues. It's just hard not to with this government.

Posted by: mynewhandle at February 03, 2015 02:07 PM (AkOaV)

231 It is amazing to me that this is becoming a GOP issue - and I'm still not really convinced it is. There are real issues here between protection of society and liberty. Paul and Christie acknowledge that. There are also real issues here in distinguishing between what vaccines are necessary or not. This has only become an issue because a certain set of liberals have declined to vaccinate their children causing long ago diseases to make a comeback. It is not conservatives that caused this, it is liberals and their anti-science belief. I think the GOP should fight this head on. If the liberals want to have a fight over vacinnations, let's give it to the.

Posted by: SH at February 03, 2015 02:07 PM (gmeXX)

232
I would live in Ruidoso in a heartbeat.
Posted by: Ricardo Kill

Beautiful up there, but that part of New Mexico is pretty far away from major airports. Not a problem if you never intend to go anywhere or have visitors, otherwise it's hours from Alq or El Paso by car.

Mayhaps the Las Cruces /El Paso area?

Posted by: Laurie David's Cervix at February 03, 2015 02:07 PM (kdS6q)

233 "but I'd live in Cloudcroft (which isn't too far)."

Oh, absolutely. I should say Ruidoso "area." Ruidoso is really uptown for the immediate area.

Posted by: Ricardo Kill at February 03, 2015 02:07 PM (LA7Cm)

234 I'm pretty damn sure that al of the illegals here under Obama's open borders plan are not vaccinated. I'm sure they can do whatever they want. Only real citizens have to bow down to the royal decrees of King Barky the Liar of Fecal Touch.

Posted by: Jukin at February 03, 2015 02:07 PM (WGm5T)

235 @148 Serious question because I don't know. Will she develop immunity now that she has it?
----------------------------

From what I understand, yes she should. The problem with the vaccine not providing immunity apparently doesn't apply to the actual disease itself.

Posted by: junior at February 03, 2015 02:08 PM (UWFpX)

236 Society may occasionally have a duty to keep you penned in with a flamethrower.
Posted by: DaveA at February 03, 2015 01:57 PM (DL2i+)

*taps chin*

So. What you're saying is that when I'm penned in, there will be a flamethrower with me?

Okie dokie

Oh hey I haven't pimped the podcast in like seconds.

Please go listen to BC and I's* podcast. Please?

Here visual representation of my request:

http://bit.ly/1CNhaVu

*Yes, the improper grammar is intentional

Posted by: alexthechick - The left one is Punch the right one is Judy at February 03, 2015 02:08 PM (mf5HN)

237 The After Hours Party

Posted by: Garrett at February 03, 2015 02:08 PM (Hv3LR)

238 my preference is for, wherever Rand Paul is, conservatives stop lynching and discrediting their allies. It's like how Obama conducts foreign policy and it's fucking asinine.
Posted by: gm at February 03, 2015 02:06 PM (K0tm3)

_________

The GOP and circular firing squads, it's their thing.

Posted by: Mr. Moo Moo at February 03, 2015 02:08 PM (0LHZx)

239 Say what you want. Paul correct. You give up freedoms, it's a slippery slope and we've been down this road

AKA, Civil Rights act of 1964, the end of property rights.

Posted by: Nip Sip at February 03, 2015 02:08 PM (0FSuD)

240 If you want your kids to go to public school, they get vaccinated. Period. Or they don't go.

If they don't go do you get your tax money back?

Posted by: Bertram Cabot Jr. at February 03, 2015 02:08 PM (W5DcG)

241 to be fair . he has a point . the nazi dont stop. we NEED a few vaccines but they what to give like a hundred that we dont NEED . if they can force one they can force a thousand . look at boston ( boston strong ) they shut down a good chunk of town with martial law tactics . they were lookin for some dbag in my little town and pulled the same crap ! because we let them do it ...it will get worse ... land of the free my ass.

Posted by: alec at February 03, 2015 02:09 PM (A6LBn)

242 I'm old enough to remember that my parents had to prove that I had all my vaccinations before I could start school and I got all my booster shots IN school.

In Texas its a "not really required" requirement (opt outs). But, yes, this.

If we're going to *force* children into close proximity with each other, then it is incumbent upon us to do what we reasonably can to ensure their health and safety- including from deadly/crippling disease.

Posted by: AllenG (DedicatedTenther) - TrueCon at February 03, 2015 02:09 PM (kff5f)

243 If you want your kids to go to public school, they get vaccinated. Period. Or they don't go.

Again. How is this a problem? Get the kids out of the leftist indoctrination centers that are public schools.

Posted by: GMan at February 03, 2015 02:09 PM (sxq57)

244 "Not a problem if you never intend to go anywhere or have visitors, otherwise it's hours from Alq or El Paso by car."

Yes it is. Part of my comment about not needing to be around pop centers or serious medical facilities. Almagordo to the east would have a decent enough medical center but no regular air service.

Globe would be a little more isolated. Couple hours down to Tucson for anything serious.

Posted by: Ricardo Kill at February 03, 2015 02:09 PM (LA7Cm)

245 Posted by: huerfano at February 03, 2015 01:29 PM (bAGA/)

How about playgrounds and amusement parks and play areas at fast food joints and pediatrician's offices......?

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at February 03, 2015 02:10 PM (Zu3d9)

246 While I hope this is rushing Paul off the stage, it is mostly unobjectionable. Shelter in place. Clear the roads. Do not go outside in NYC.

Yes, we are getting far too conditioned to these people having the power to tell us to do whatever it is that they want to tell us to do.

Posted by: blaster at February 03, 2015 02:10 PM (Rx8ML)

247 >>my preference is for, wherever Rand Paul is, conservatives stop lynching and discrediting their allies. It's like how Obama conducts foreign policy and it's fucking asinine.

Do you think its fair to then ask politicians like Rand Paul to stop attacking other Republican politicians? He does that ya know.

Posted by: JackStraw at February 03, 2015 02:10 PM (g1DWB)

248 I'm old enough to remember that my parents had to prove that I had all my vaccinations before I could start school and I got all my booster shots IN school.
Posted by: wrg500 at February 03, 2015 02:05 PM (C278+)

-----------------------------------------

I can remember parents clamouring to get their kids vaccinated against polio when that vaccine became available. I think the fed should step out of the vaccination picture and leave it to the states or, better yet, the individual school districts. Disease threats vary among different regions of the country.

Posted by: Soona at February 03, 2015 02:11 PM (/HX7u)

249 240 If you want your kids to go to public school, they get vaccinated. Period. Or they don't go.

If they don't go do you get your tax money back?

Posted by: Bertram Cabot Jr. at February 03, 2015 02:08 PM (W5DcG)

Don't I wish. We vaccinate but we also home school. I live being shit on by the lefties as somehow depriving the State of something by educating my own kids and paying for that out of pocket. And yet, no one's offered me a refund on my property taxes yet. Funny that.

Posted by: Mandy P., lurking lurker who lurks at February 03, 2015 02:11 PM (KkVB6)

250 All of this bullshit vaccine stuff if the fault of the Clinton administration. I'm at the gym now but I'll post the reason later.

The Vaccines for Children program.

This was a Hillary brainchild. They tried to make vaccines "free". As a result, of the 25 companies making vaccines, it went almost overnight to 5. I think it's 3 now, but I'm not sure. That's why they're so expensive.

Of course, paralyzing fear of litigation doesn't help either.

Posted by: AmishDude at February 03, 2015 02:11 PM (L2xDv)

251 The Sleepover Party

Posted by: Garrett at February 03, 2015 02:11 PM (Hv3LR)

252 Even worse, these people are just getting too comfortable telling us to do whatever it is they want to tell us to do.

Posted by: blaster at February 03, 2015 02:12 PM (Rx8ML)

253 "101
OT

I'm sorry but I'm sick of this state so is my older brother.

He's been saying it's time to move. I say NC or TX I want a Red State.

40 inches of snow single digit temps in 6 days did it for him.

He wants to go where there will be dry heat in summer, AZ or New Mexico.

Horde?

Posted by: Carol at February 03, 2015 01:41 PM (sj3Ax)"

I lived in Massachusetts for a few years when I was a kid and I could not wait to live. I live in Texas now but I lived in Phoenix, Arizona for a few years and I liked it a lot. As they say there, "Hot as Hell and dry as a bone". Texas is a big place. El Paso is desert, kind of like Arizona. Houston is hot and humid in the summer but it almost never snows (although when it does, stay off the road until all the people who are going to crash their cars have done so). Dallas/Fort Worth gets cold enough for you to take your winter clothes out of the closet for a few weeks every year but those weeks tend not to be all at once and are interspersed with some 80 degree days.

Posted by: Obnoxious A-Hole at February 03, 2015 02:12 PM (KDbAT)

254
Ace, you are not far off. The vaccinations are not the control in and of themselves, the are an inculation of the control. Look back beyond '09s swine flu to '05(?)s west nile scare, then back to the "scare" before that etc. etc. Just keep the sheeples nose to tail and you only have to manipulate the guidon bearer; all the easier when the MSM is willfully leading them by their noses.

Posted by: Gus Bailey at February 03, 2015 02:12 PM (BYeLY)

255
Please to be noting, Paul was talking about the flu shot, which this year they're claiming a 23% success rate for.

(Bander assumes this to be a lie).

So, it's not like ZOMG he wants to bring back polio! Where do you draw the line? Me, I've never had the flu shot.

Posted by: Bandersnatch at February 03, 2015 02:12 PM (JtwS4)

256
So the outrage over ISIS is over. And now we're just about over the outrage over Rand Paul.

Ten minutes from now we'll be laughing about funny tv commercials.

Posted by: Soothsayer at February 03, 2015 02:12 PM (kgXbV)

257 I think the fed should step out of the vaccination picture and leave it to the states or, better yet, the individual school districts.

----

What's weird is that what you are wishing for is basically the status quo right now. This is an issue because liberals voluntarily stopped vacinating their children for no good logical reason.

Posted by: SH at February 03, 2015 02:12 PM (gmeXX)

258 *Yes, the improper grammar is intentional

Posted by: alexthechick - The left one is Punch the right one is Judy at February 03, 2015 02:08 PM (mf5HN)

Young lady! Go to your room.

Posted by: Pompous Grammar Pedant at February 03, 2015 02:12 PM (Zu3d9)

259 Beautiful up there, but that part of New Mexico is pretty far away from major airports. Not a problem if you never intend to go anywhere or have visitors, otherwise it's hours from Alq or El Paso by car.

There's a decent airport in Alamogordo.

Posted by: AllenG (DedicatedTenther) - TrueCon at February 03, 2015 02:12 PM (kff5f)

260 Posted by: GMan at February 03, 2015 02:03 PM (sxq57)

Yup.... would the same Mass murderers in Government who banned DDT for no real scientific reason, be in charge of what vaccines we get?

or would it be the same Doctors who came up with the Food recommendations which caused Obesity and Diabetes to drastically increase, who are in charge?

Or perhaps the ones who say for our young women to get Gardisil for HPV... a vaccine where the science is very sketchy IMO?

Question.... Is there ANYTHING the Federal Government gets involved in, that actually gets BETTER long term? or do they always over reach to the point of taking freedom (exhibit 1, EPA, good idea, taken WAY too far).

Posted by: BB Wolf at February 03, 2015 02:12 PM (qh617)

261 219 I very much want to like Rand.

-
I very much wanted to like John McCain but it didn't work out.
Posted by: The Great White Snark at February 03, 2015 02:05 PM

Yeah, I tried to give that Burr fellow the benefit of the doubt.
Posted by: Alexander Hamilton

Posted by: Misanthropic Humanitrian at February 03, 2015 02:12 PM (/GgDU)

262 Isn't it Austin DA that indicted Perry?

Rosemary Lehmberg, Travis County DA. Austin is in Travis County.

Posted by: Stephen Price Blair at February 03, 2015 02:12 PM (J0IP0)

263 A number of people in the '70s reported either short or long term paralysis after the Swine vax besides fatal reactions. Someone here posted about it yesterday or the day before I think.
I never took Alex jones for anything but a borderline mental case that wavered between serious and mild crazy. However a few weeks ago, while driving outside Austin, I happened to listen to about 30 minutes of his radio show. A lot of stuff he said made sense in the theory and story arc of this administration.
I've never been more freaked out in my life when I realized I agreed with some of his raving of impending doom.

Posted by: Hopped Up On something at February 03, 2015 02:12 PM (NHtMs)

264 The Blanket Party

Posted by: Pvt Cowboy at February 03, 2015 02:13 PM (GuwT9)

265 Posted by: Misanthropic Humanitrian at February 03, 2015 01:27 PM (/GgDU)

Humanitarian - unless you are from Humanitria

Posted by: Bob at February 03, 2015 02:13 PM (o2z5D)

266 my preference is for, wherever Rand Paul is, conservatives stop lynching and discrediting their allies. It's like how Obama conducts foreign policy and it's fucking asinine.
Posted by: gm at February 03, 2015 02:06 PM (K0tm3)

Since when have big 'L' Libertarians (or even little 'l' libertarians) been allies? Some of your like-minded libertarian politician pals put on the Republican label when it suits them--you know, in order to give them the veneer of mainstream respectability so they won't be considered part of that conspiracy-laden, dope-smoking, anti-Semitic batshit crazy idioticfringe that is the fucking Libertarian Party.

You want fucking asinine? That's fucking asinine.

Posted by: troyriser at February 03, 2015 02:13 PM (CAJL/)

267 Problem with the desert is, if the shit really hits the fan, it's the freakin' desert!

I wish there were mountains with warm dry weather all year. And I ain't talkin the high desert, as stunningly beautiful as it is. I mean mountains with trees, and water, and, well, food.

Like Sam Kinnison said, you live in a desert. Move to where the food is!

Posted by: Citizen X at February 03, 2015 02:13 PM (7ObY1)

268 Do you think its fair to then ask politicians like Rand Paul to stop attacking other Republican politicians? He does that ya know.

Christie and Jeb, too.

Jeb especially likes to lecture to anyone he thinks is "wrong."

Posted by: AmishDude at February 03, 2015 02:13 PM (L2xDv)

269 When an infant dies because of a vaccine, can the parents of that kid take your kid out and butcher them, you know, for balance?

Posted by: GMan at February 03, 2015 02:03 PM (sxq57)

Then that infant (and many others) would have died from the disease. What I wrote was "generally speaking" and I thought that was obvious.

BTW - that was fine hyperbole you threw in there, son.

Posted by: Mikey NTH - Paranoia Punch with Electrolytes at the Outrage Outlet! at February 03, 2015 02:13 PM (hLRSq)

270 He wants to go where there will be dry heat in summer, AZ or New Mexico.

Horde?

Silver City, NM, if you want to see snow once in a while.

Sun City, AZ, if you're just done with it.

Posted by: Blanco Basura at February 03, 2015 02:14 PM (UVfht)

271 Ten minutes from now we'll be laughing about funny tv commercials.

Posted by: Soothsayer at February 03, 2015 02:12 PM (kgXbV)

Well, we spent a very enjoyable three hours discussing nice people in stores, so there.

Posted by: Nip Sip at February 03, 2015 02:14 PM (0FSuD)

272 that was fine hyperbole you threw in there, son.

Thanks, I liked it myself.

Posted by: GMan at February 03, 2015 02:14 PM (sxq57)

273 I've never had the flu shot.

Posted by: Bandersnatch at February 03, 2015 02:12 PM (JtwS4)

What is that....a point of pride?

"If an outhouse was good enough for my great-grandfather, then it's good enough for me!"

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at February 03, 2015 02:14 PM (Zu3d9)

274
Almagordo to the east
Posted by: Ricardo Kill

*shudder* Remember that place as kinda beat down. A services town for the area. Not a place you move to, but rather a place you end up.

Posted by: Laurie David's Cervix at February 03, 2015 02:14 PM (kdS6q)

275 The Pot-luck Party

Posted by: Garrett at February 03, 2015 02:14 PM (Hv3LR)

276
Of course, paralyzing fear of litigation doesn't help either.
Posted by: AmishDude at February 03, 2015 02:11 PM (L2xDv)

Yeah, don't we know it.
Posted by: Ashley Furniture

Posted by: Misanthropic Humanitrian at February 03, 2015 02:14 PM (/GgDU)

277 Sure sounds to me that all Paul was saying is that if the government can forcibly stick a needle in your arm and inject a foreign substance into you -- a substance that undeniably has at least some risk -- there is nothing the government cannot do to you.

Paul has some moral and constitutional problems with the proposition that there is nothing the government cannot do to you.

As should we all.

Sounds to me like Paul's point is simply that "liberty" has to mean something and that something includes the freedom to be wrong.

Posted by: H.Ry at February 03, 2015 02:15 PM (Xv7f/)

278
Well, we spent a very enjoyable three hours discussing nice people in stores, so there.

Where, in the shitty painting thread?

Posted by: Soothsayer at February 03, 2015 02:15 PM (kgXbV)

279 Posted by: Soona at February 03, 2015 02:11 PM (/HX7u)

That requires a very different world than the one in which we live, I'm afraid.

Part of the problem, as was mentioned above, is the swarm of illegals- most of whom are also already not vaccinated.

But, yes, this is a State issue. The Federal Government was not granted authority to handle such issues. That the National Government we currently have has seized that authority doesn't make it okay.

Posted by: AllenG (DedicatedTenther) - TrueCon at February 03, 2015 02:16 PM (kff5f)

280
When an infant dies because of a vaccine, can the parents of that kid take your kid out and butcher them, you know, for balance?
Posted by: GMan

Diagnosis: Acute Strawmanatosis

Posted by: Laurie David's Cervix at February 03, 2015 02:16 PM (kdS6q)

281
"He wants to go where there will be dry heat in summer, AZ or New Mexico. "

I dont' like desert, so I can't help you. AR is definately not a dry heat, but on the plus side you never have to shovel snow. If it bothers to snow, it melts in a few days. I'll never forget going to Boston on Spring break one time and seeing a giant pile of unmelted snow, despite its being 60 degrees or so.

Posted by: Lea at February 03, 2015 02:16 PM (lIU4e)

282 The whole problem with this stupid debate is that it is very difficult to get someone's position down to a one sentence soundbite. So if I were a politician I would simply say ask the govenor, I'm more interested in repealing Obamacare. Alternatively, say you know we had measles pretty much licked until those rich Democrats in Los Angeles and SF stopped vacinating their kids at the behest of a playboy model.

Posted by: SH at February 03, 2015 02:17 PM (gmeXX)

283 Thing to keep in mind about flu vaccines is that they immunize you against a relative handful of flu virus strains, whereas you are exposed to hundreds every flu season. I remember the swine flu thing in the 1970s well, since I was actually there for it, unlike most here. The CDC feared a swine flu outbreak comparable to the Spanish flu epidemic in the early part of the 20th century; scared the hell out of them. So practically the entire country was vaccinated for it (along with the usual subset of likely flu viruses at that time). Nothing happened. No swine flu outbreak. The CDC took years getting over the bad rep they earned for that one. But they really believed it could happen, and don't forget that literally millions died in the Spanish flu mess. Now, it was not MANDATORY that we get that shot, but everyone had the fear of God put in them by the CDC, so most everyone did. Hell, the shot made me sick with flu-like symptoms for a week, and a few weeks later I got the flu anyway (see above about flu vaccines). I didn't get another flu shot for years, and over the subsequent few years I developed immunities to the most common flu strains and didn't have a problem for a long time.

My doctor told me that he doesn't even recommend flu shots unless you have some underlying chronic medical problem, as I now do, and it's why I've started getting flu shots again.

Even so, this whole vaccine thing is a nothingburger made up by the loony left, and just plain crazies like the Paulbots. I've been vaccinated for practically everything and nothing happened (except for having immunities to things like measles, polio, diptheria, etc), neither to me nor anyone I knew or knew of. And I have a real simple solution for the nutbars who won't get their kids vaccinated; don't let the kids in school (which for years is exactly what the schools required). But then fine and/or jail the parents for not having their kids in school. Problem solved (or have them run back to Mexico or whereever; another problem solved).

Posted by: The Oort Cloud - SMOD is missing at February 03, 2015 02:17 PM (yTMXB)

284
What is that....a point of pride?

No, just sayin'. If I ever get a bad dose of flu I may rethink that. In the meantime I figure the vaccine is more likely to infect me than the Outside.

Posted by: Bandersnatch at February 03, 2015 02:17 PM (JtwS4)

285
Then that infant (and many others) would have died from the disease.

That is not necessarily true. And the *fact* that it's not necessarily true makes it important. All you people going "it's statistically safe" are forgetting that yeah, the chances of a problem of some form might be extremely rare, but to the people they affect, not so much.

Full disclosure, I'm actually vaccinating my kid (not on the CDC schedule, but they'll be finished with the vaccines at the same time), but the thought that you people feel you get to tell parents what to do, medically with their children disgusts me. Where does it stop? Really, where? Where would you draw the line?

Posted by: GMan at February 03, 2015 02:17 PM (sxq57)

286 @234

According to official statistics, most Mexicans and central Americans do have the MMR vaccination. Not quite as high numbers as us, but a fairly reasonable per centage of their population.

They have other exotic diseases, but the real hot zones for M M R are Muslim countries where many see vaccines as anti-Islamic.

Fun fact: LEGAL immigrants get a massive horse-sized injection (typically in their left shoulder) of all kinds of vaccinations whether they'd had them or not in their home countries. Just to be safe.

Several of my immigrant friends show off their scars as proof of their legal status.

Posted by: mynewhandle at February 03, 2015 02:17 PM (AkOaV)

287 I'll never forget going to Boston on Spring break one time and seeing a giant pile of unmelted snow, despite its being 60 degrees or so.

Try Western Ny in June or July.

Posted by: wrg500 at February 03, 2015 02:17 PM (C278+)

288 I remember having to prove I had all my vaccinations when I went to college.

I have to ask... is someone suddenly pushing for national vaccination mandates? 'Cause if so- I missed that.

The correct answer to any vaccination question (from a politician) would seem to me to be this:

"Before vaccination was a common practice we had flu epidemics. Children were dying or being crippled from Polio. Measles was a menace. Whooping Cough killed its share, too.

So it seems fairly obvious that vaccinating your children is a good idea- and far outweighs any very rare risks associated with it.

Whether or not vaccines should be mandated is a different question, and not one for the Federal Government to address. We have not been granted that authority by the Constitution."
Posted by: AllenG (DedicatedTenther) - TrueCon at February 03, 2015 02:06 PM (kff5f)

Apparently Boehner was asked this and responded "I don't think there should be more laws but I think kids should be vaccinated."

Boom. Perfect answer. There are already laws on the books regarding vaccinations and those should be applied ie no more "philosophical" reasons meaning Mommy read it on one of the Mommy Blogs and oh noes.

There are state laws on the books about this. Use those.

I am very sympathetic to the arguments that the government should not be telling parents how to raise their kids. See the very need for a free range parenting movement in the first place. This is where reality becomes messy. My liberty stops at harming you. When it comes to communicable diseases, there will never be a perfect balance of maximal personal and familial liberty and protecting others from harm.

Posted by: alexthechick - The left one is Punch the right one is Judy at February 03, 2015 02:18 PM (mf5HN)

289 Where does it stop? Really, where? Where would you draw the line?
Posted by: GMan at February 03, 2015 02:17 PM (sxq57)

I agree. Vaccination 100% makes sense.

I'm also 100% against using the implicit violent of government to force someone to vaccinate their kid against their will.

Posted by: mynewhandle at February 03, 2015 02:18 PM (AkOaV)

290 Diagnosis: Acute Strawmanatosis

I'm serious. If you mandate vaccines, and a kid dies from it, I think that someone who was calling for the mandate should have a kid taken and killed. You know, put some skin in the game.

Posted by: GMan at February 03, 2015 02:18 PM (sxq57)

291 The Tupperware Party

Posted by: wth at February 03, 2015 02:18 PM (wAQA5)

292 >>Christie and Jeb, too.

>>Jeb especially likes to lecture to anyone he thinks is "wrong."

Yep. They all do. Shit, we all do. It's the nature of politics and any argument for that matter.

Paul wants to be president just like the rest of them. They will all therefore need to "attack" each other and tear down their positions in order to promote their own. Paul has some good positions. His positions on foreign policy and apparently this one are not good from my perspective.

There are no saints in politics. Zero.

Posted by: JackStraw at February 03, 2015 02:18 PM (g1DWB)

293 The Aggrieved Party?

Posted by: AltonJackson at February 03, 2015 02:18 PM (2Ayux)

294 *shudder* Remember that place as kinda beat down. A services town for the area. Not a place you move to, but rather a place you end up.

It's gotten a little better in the last couple of years. It looked almost decent last time I was there (last year? year before?).

But, yes, you live in one of the areas outside of Alamogordo, and only travel there for your "big" shopping.

Posted by: AllenG (DedicatedTenther) - TrueCon at February 03, 2015 02:19 PM (kff5f)

295 Again. How is this a problem? Get the kids out of the leftist indoctrination centers that are public schools.

And do what with them?
Not every one can afford to homeschool.
Private school? You can bet your ass that they will demand vaccinations.

Posted by: rickb223 at February 03, 2015 02:19 PM (gt0r0)

296 " Not a place you move to, but rather a place you end up."

Well, it's definitely held up in large part because of Holloman and the Range. Some tourist pass-throughs too.

Posted by: Ricardo Kill at February 03, 2015 02:19 PM (LA7Cm)

297 "How about playgrounds and amusement parks and play areas at fast food joints and pediatrician's offices......?

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at February 03, 2015 02:10 PM (Zu3d9)"

I would want to push the restrictions on anti-vaxxers as far as possible. Live with the consequences of your choice.

If you choose to be a danger to others, you should stay away from other people. If you live alone in a cabin surrounded by a hundred acres of your land, feel free to drive drunk on your property or discharge all of your firearms in any direction whenever the mood strikes you. If you live closer to other people, you should constrain your behavior so as not to cause other people harm.

Posted by: Obnoxious A-Hole at February 03, 2015 02:19 PM (KDbAT)

298 Private school? You can bet your ass that they will demand vaccinations.

Apparently not the ones the libs in marin CA go to.

Posted by: GMan at February 03, 2015 02:20 PM (sxq57)

299 I figure the vaccine is more likely to infect me than the Outside.

Posted by: Bandersnatch at February 03, 2015 02:17 PM (JtwS4)

You figure wrong.

The flu vaccine is a killed virus vaccine. It cannot give you the flu.

(The nasal spray variant is live-attenuated, but that's for kids).

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at February 03, 2015 02:20 PM (Zu3d9)

300 My liberty stops at harming you.

Posted by: alexthechick - The left one is Punch the right one is Judy at February 03, 2015 02:18 PM (mf5HN)

BUT, you'll throat punch me or send in the raptor?

Posted by: wrg500 at February 03, 2015 02:20 PM (C278+)

301 Public school admittance cant be the only mandate for vaccines. Because Disneyland.

Posted by: california red at February 03, 2015 02:20 PM (UyEG4)

302
>>> I have no question that public officials routinely overstate or understate risks in order to manipulate public behavior towards a specific mode they've decided is "for the greater good."

That's what causes paranoia. Is the sure knowledge that you are being lied to in order to manipulate you into doing something. That's why the paranoid right/left exist.

>>>I guess I'm just bothered at the Pauls' relentless courting of the paranoid right/left

Well they do deserve a little pat on the back I guess. They have kinda sorta been right a few times. (Albeit horribly, and stubbornly wrong on other things) I mean JBS was sure there was a communist hiding under every rock in the 60's. They weren't that far wrong. I mean the looney toons they were playing then went like "Social Security and the federal income tax are all part of the 'creeping socialism' that is taking over the federal government."

Posted by: MikeTheMoose at February 03, 2015 02:20 PM (0q2P7)

303 The Federal Government should absolutely be in charge of personal health.

........The Tuskegee Syphilis Experiment Dead

Posted by: Hopped Up On something at February 03, 2015 02:20 PM (NHtMs)

304 I heard Howie interview & Paul didn't answer many questions.
Howie opened next day show saying it is all taped.

Posted by: Carol at February 03, 2015 02:21 PM (sj3Ax)

305 you should constrain your behavior so as not to cause other people harm.

Posted by: Obnoxious A-Hole at February 03, 2015 02:19 PM (KDbAT)

Why...that sounds positively....conservative!

(Fcukin A!)

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at February 03, 2015 02:21 PM (Zu3d9)

306
BUT, you'll throat punch me or send in the raptor?

That's not her exercise of liberty.

That's her discretion.

Posted by: Bandersnatch at February 03, 2015 02:21 PM (JtwS4)

307 The Adult Novelties Party

Posted by: wth at February 03, 2015 02:21 PM (wAQA5)

308 The Party of the First Part

Posted by: Garrett at February 03, 2015 02:21 PM (Hv3LR)

309 "Private school? You can bet your ass that they will demand vaccinations.

Posted by: rickb223 at February 03, 2015 02:19 PM (gt0r0)"

Sounds like a business opportunity for a niche market.

Posted by: Obnoxious A-Hole at February 03, 2015 02:21 PM (KDbAT)

310 Carol, I know how you feel about winter.

If I'm ever fortunate to retire. I'm leaving WI for AZ. Found a nice little city about an hour north of Mesa. In the mountains, it has 4 seasons. I'll take snow a few days a year.

Posted by: Misanthropic Humanitrian at February 03, 2015 02:22 PM (/GgDU)

311 That's her discretion.

Posted by: Bandersnatch at February 03, 2015 02:21 PM (JtwS4)

I guess it's good to be Queen.

Posted by: wrg500 at February 03, 2015 02:22 PM (C278+)

312 The Aggrieved Party?

****

The Porta Potty?

Posted by: Muldoon, a solid man at February 03, 2015 02:22 PM (NeFrd)

313 The You Gotta Fight for Your Right to Party.

Posted by: BackwardsBoy, who did not vote for this sh1t at February 03, 2015 02:23 PM (0HooB)

314 a little off topic and I went off this briefly on twitter, but did anyone else catch Washpost do their spin on Iraqis watch 'murican Sniper? Similar to the global post article?

where "shoot the mother fucker" turned into "angry iraqis screamed at the screen [because Kyle's rayciss]"

Posted by: joe-impeachin44 at February 03, 2015 02:23 PM (8UKC6)

315 American citizens are afforded the same rights as illegal immigrants, this I know from listening to the new, would-be AG.

Thus, I do believe that Americans have just as much a right to leave their children as the illegal immigrant children that they are required to sit next to in public schools.

Posted by: Malcolm Tent at February 03, 2015 02:23 PM (QPoJb)

316 I am very sympathetic to the arguments that the government should not be telling parents how to raise their kid

This isn't "how you raise your kid". This is "we're going to take your kid and give them drugs against your will."

Kind of different.

Posted by: GMan at February 03, 2015 02:23 PM (sxq57)

317 the thought that you people feel you get to tell parents what to do, medically with their children disgusts me. Where does it stop? Really, where? Where would you draw the line?

Yes, I am not okay with your kid becoming an active biological hazard to mine. Sorry, that's kind of a big deal.

As to where it stops? Somewhere on the scale between Polio and Flu. At the point that the majority of people recover from the disease without lingering/permanent negative effects.

Posted by: AllenG (DedicatedTenther) - TrueCon at February 03, 2015 02:23 PM (kff5f)

318 Where does it stop? Really, where? Where would you draw the line?
Posted by: GMan at February 03, 2015 02:17 PM (sxq57)

Polio. Smallpox. Diptheria. Yellow fever. And so on.

Had a group or groups of parents across the country decided to resist polio innoculations, for example, that disease would still be wreaking havoc, killing and crippling millions more. So would smallpox and all the rest. So where's the line? The health and safety of millions. That's the line.

What's wrong with you people?

Posted by: troyriser at February 03, 2015 02:24 PM (CAJL/)

319 I agree vaccines are important, but it would be wrong - and unconstitutional - for the federal government to require vaccinations. It would be wrong for the local governments to do so as well, because it violates basic liberty.

We need a culture where people understand and embrace protecting children from horrible diseases. We need to shame and culturally punish filth like Oprah Winfrey and Jenny McCarthy who are scaring stupid parents into avoiding vaccinations. But not legally. Nobody should be forced at gunpoint to vaccinate their children.

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at February 03, 2015 02:24 PM (39g3+)

320 American citizens are afforded the same rights as illegal immigrants, this I know from listening to the new, would-be AG.

Thus, I do believe that Americans have just as much a right to leave their children unvaccinated as the illegal immigrant children that they are required to sit next to in public schools.

Posted by: Malcolm Tent at February 03, 2015 02:24 PM (QPoJb)

321 The Pre Party

Posted by: Bruce Jenner at February 03, 2015 02:24 PM (Hv3LR)

322 Yes, I am not okay with your kid becoming an active biological hazard to mine. Sorry, that's kind of a big deal.

Too fucking bad.

You don't own my kid. I don't own yours. You don't get to give my kid a shot if I don't want you to.

Posted by: GMan at February 03, 2015 02:24 PM (sxq57)

323 The Party in My Pants Party

Posted by: wth at February 03, 2015 02:26 PM (wAQA5)

324 If I'm ever fortunate to retire. I'm leaving WI for AZ. Found a nice
little city about an hour north of Mesa. In the mountains, it has 4
seasons. I'll take snow a few days a year.

Sounds like we could be neighbors one day. 'Cause as soon as I can get out of the Valley of the Sunstroke, that's one of three places I'm looking.

Posted by: Blanco Basura at February 03, 2015 02:26 PM (UVfht)

325 Art Linkletter's House Party

Posted by: Bertram Cabot Jr. at February 03, 2015 02:26 PM (W5DcG)

326 Yep. They all do. Shit, we all do. It's the nature of politics and any argument for that matter.

Not like Jeb. Nobody lectures like Jeb.

Posted by: AmishDude at February 03, 2015 02:26 PM (L2xDv)

327 Posted by: Hopped Up On something at February 03, 2015 02:12 PM (NHtMs)

Well, thats what Alex Jones does. He'll make some good points that we can mostly agree with, and as soon as we start nodding our heads, he'll tell us the governments manipulating the weather with HAARP and putting sterilizing chemicals in the air with chemtrails.

Theres nothing worse then overselling your case.

Jones would be less objectionable if he just stuck to his "government is out to fuck us" ideas without going in to the absurd conspiracy theories that I find it hard anyone really believes. I mean, real out there nutso stuff.

Posted by: mynewhandle at February 03, 2015 02:26 PM (AkOaV)

328 That's her discretion.

Posted by: Bandersnatch at February 03, 2015 02:21 PM (JtwS4)

I guess it's good to be Queen.
Posted by: wrg500 at February 03, 2015 02:22 PM (C278+)

Precisely.

*shoves lemon bars through USB for Bandersnatch*

RE: Flu shots. I no longer get the flu shot because I'm not in a high risk category and because I get sick every time.

I am positive that the getting sick is psychosomatic because I am worried about getting sick and bam.

Posted by: alexthechick - The left one is Punch the right one is Judy at February 03, 2015 02:26 PM (mf5HN)

329 "I guess I'm just bothered at the Pauls' relentless courting of the
paranoid right/left, the fringey cadre of people who drift easily from
being LaRouchian Democrats to being John Birch Society Republicans."

Add in sophomorical views on morality in foreign policy and knee jerk hostility to religion and you've covered my objections to the Pauls.

A brilliant small "l" libertarian like Charles Murray is marginalized in the big L party by lemmings for freedom Paulbots with the intellectual depth of 14 year olds who just read "Anthem" by way of the album notes to 2112 .

Until the libertarians ditch Kim Jung Paul and Rand Jung Un, they'll forever be the party of the Dear Leaders, Jesse Ventura and Alex Jones.

Posted by: SocietyIs2Blame at February 03, 2015 02:26 PM (QKIQb)

330 "Found a nice little city about an hour north of Mesa. In the mountains, it has 4 seasons. I'll take snow a few days a year. "

Excellent.

Posted by: Ricardo Kill at February 03, 2015 02:26 PM (LA7Cm)

331 So where's the line? The health and safety of millions. That's the line.

How do you define that? Tobacco smoke? Carboydrates? Salt in food? Extra large drinks? Letting your kids eat too many sweets?

Given the last 10 years, are you really so foolish as to believe that's not where giving government a little power over our liberty leads?

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at February 03, 2015 02:26 PM (39g3+)

332 the thought that you people feel you get to tell parents what to do, medically with their children disgusts me. Where does it stop? Really, where? Where would you draw the line?

Yes, I am not okay with your kid becoming an active biological hazard to mine. Sorry, that's kind of a big deal.

As to where it stops? Somewhere on the scale between Polio and Flu. At the point that the majority of people recover from the disease without lingering/permanent negative effects.

-----

This exchange sums up the debate pretty well. There are real liberty issues at stake. And there are real health issues at stake too. For most of us, there is a line between Polio and Flu. The liberty people aren't entirely wrong to note that once you start with Polio, you may end with Flu. The health people aren't entirely wrong to note that Polio is different than Flu and should be treated differently. Society had pretty much worked this out with some state law intervention, but mostly on its own.

Then Jenny McCarthy happened ... And not the good part of her happening.

Posted by: SH at February 03, 2015 02:26 PM (gmeXX)

333 but the thought that you people feel you get to tell parents what to do, medically with their children disgusts me.

Are you claiming you have a right to send your kid out to infect innocent bystanders with preventable diseases that cause birth defects, life-long disabilities, and death.

Even butchers like Gosnell make a pretense of getting a mother's permission before they kill a baby.

Posted by: HR needs donuts at February 03, 2015 02:27 PM (ZKzrr)

334 You don't own my kid. I don't own yours. You don't get to give my kid a shot if I don't want you to.
Posted by: GMan at February 03, 2015 02:24 PM (sxq57)

If it came to something like polio or some other, equally lethal or crippling disease, oh yes I would, Internet tough guy, with or without your cooperation. Your kid would get the shot. And you would stand there. And you would fucking like it.

Posted by: troyriser at February 03, 2015 02:27 PM (CAJL/)

335 This is the crap situation you get when:

a) the government is full of crap
b) press is in the tank for the government
c) scientists on the federal teat shill for the teat
d) public education is in the crapper

It's not just Paul, it's a more general collapse of social trust and education. The Alex Joneses of the world are having a tidy little field day.

Posted by: Feh at February 03, 2015 02:27 PM (8fUwE)

336 For the most part, hasn't this question been settled?

Posted by: joe-impeachin44 at February 03, 2015 02:27 PM (8UKC6)

337 I am positive that the getting sick is psychosomatic because I am worried about getting sick and bam.

Posted by: alexthechick - The left one is Punch the right one is Judy at February 03, 2015 02:26 PM (mf5HN)

That and you don't go outside.

Posted by: wrg500 at February 03, 2015 02:28 PM (C278+)

338 Strawberry Az.

Good pie, there.

Posted by: Garrett at February 03, 2015 02:28 PM (Hv3LR)

339 Kind of different.

Posted by: GMan at February 03, 2015 02:23 PM (sxq57)

Yes...it's more like, "I'm going to use my child as a disease vector and infect your child with a possibly deadly illness."

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at February 03, 2015 02:28 PM (Zu3d9)

340 Party Like It's 1999 Party

Posted by: Commenter formerly known as Prince Ludwig the Indestructible at February 03, 2015 02:28 PM (GuwT9)

341 "When it comes to communicable diseases, there will
never be a perfect balance of maximal personal and familial liberty and
protecting others from harm.

Posted by: alexthechick - The left one is Punch the right one is Judy at February 03, 2015 02:18 PM (mf5HN)"

Well that is only because the right people have not been trying to design the perfect balance. Now if me and my bull session buddies were in charge...

Posted by: Obnoxious A-Hole at February 03, 2015 02:28 PM (KDbAT)

342 If you don't vaccinate, you home school. No public school.

Posted by: NCKate at February 03, 2015 02:28 PM (EBMYe)

343 You don't own my kid. I don't own yours. You don't get to give my kid a shot if I don't want you to.

Posted by: GMan at February 03, 2015 02:24 PM (sxq57)

Fine. Then keep your kid fully sequestered from mine.

And, given the nature of disease, what that really means is he won't be leaving the house. Ever.

I don't get to force your kid to get a shot, you don't get to let your kid give mine a horrible disease.

Posted by: AllenG (DedicatedTenther) - TrueCon at February 03, 2015 02:28 PM (kff5f)

344 And do what with them? Not every one can afford to homeschool. Private school? You can bet your ass that they will demand vaccinations.
Posted by: rickb223 at February 03, 2015 02:19 PM (gt0r0)

----------------------------------------

I think his main jist is to let parents make the choice. As was said upthread, there are already state laws addressing this. We don't need more laws and we certainly don't need federal mandates.

Let the parents make their choice. If they have no money or the time to homeschool, then that will be a factor in the choice they make. And I also share his disdain for the public school system.

Posted by: Soona at February 03, 2015 02:28 PM (/HX7u)

345 As to where it stops? Somewhere on the scale between Polio and Flu. At the point that the majority of people recover from the disease without lingering/permanent negative effects.

Posted by: AllenG (DedicatedTenther) - TrueCon at February 03, 2015 02:23 PM (kff5f)

*****

Agree. Problem being that the Progressives have taken the notion of Public Health to ridiculous extremes, way beyond the point of diminishing returns (i.e. Gardisil) and way beyond the realm of infectious disease (i.e. gun control being couched in epidemiologic terms). Pushback will be hard.

Posted by: Muldoon, a solid man at February 03, 2015 02:29 PM (NeFrd)

346 For the most part, hasn't this question been settled?

Yeah, but the answer's wrong because white people or patriarchy or something.

Posted by: HR needs donuts at February 03, 2015 02:29 PM (ZKzrr)

347 Are you claiming you have a right to send your kid out to infect innocent bystanders with preventable diseases that cause birth defects, life-long disabilities, and death.

Are you stupid? I believe you may be. Because if my kid is sick, they stay the hell home, where they aren't infecting anyone.

Posted by: GMan at February 03, 2015 02:29 PM (sxq57)

348 Strawberry Az.

Good pie, there.

You guys are giving away all the good spots.

Posted by: Blanco Basura at February 03, 2015 02:29 PM (UVfht)

349 Some dude has cut up a few French soldiers at Nice, who were patrolling around a synagogue

Guessing the man's name isn't Jacques Leclerc

Posted by: boulder terlet hobo at February 03, 2015 02:29 PM (kxP8b)

350 Not being a medical type, maybe someone can clarify something for me. If I vaccinate my kid and someone else doesn't vaccinate theirs, why should I GAF? If the other kid gets measles because they weren't vaccinated, my kid isn't going to get it. Right? Or am I missing something?

Posted by: Country Singer at February 03, 2015 02:29 PM (8hctH)

351 So where's the line? The health and safety of millions. That's the line.

How do you define that? Tobacco smoke? Carboydrates? Salt in food? Extra large drinks? Letting your kids eat too many sweets?

Given the last 10 years, are you really so foolish as to believe that's not where giving government a little power over our liberty leads?

----

This is a real problem. Most people didn't have an issue with mandatory vaccinations for certain diseases because of the public health benefit. But then the government tried to ban smoking. It isn't surprising that more people are now against actions that are undertaken for "public health benefits." Still this is only an issue because rich liberals didn't want to vaccinate their children.

Posted by: SH at February 03, 2015 02:30 PM (gmeXX)

352
wow the muslim savages didn't just burn the man alive, they beat him, and pushed him around the crowd...pants-less

Posted by: Soothsayer at February 03, 2015 02:30 PM (FiWED)

353 Where does it stop? Really, where? Where would you draw the line?
Posted by: GMan at February 03, 2015 02:17 PM (sxq57

Well Mr. GMan, Google Iron Lung.
Knock yourself silly

Posted by: Misanthropic Humanitrian at February 03, 2015 02:30 PM (/GgDU)

354 >>You don't own my kid. I don't own yours. You don't get to give my kid a shot if I don't want you to.

False. All 50 states have laws on the books for kids to be immunized if they are going to attend public schools. They vary state to state but there are laws.

If you want to keep your kid out of publicly funded organizations like schools you can do as you please. Put them into a publicly funded situation and the rules change.

Posted by: JackStraw at February 03, 2015 02:31 PM (g1DWB)

355 I don't want your kid bringing diseases that my child is immune to around them!

Wait...that sounds pretty fucking stupid.

Posted by: Malcolm Tent at February 03, 2015 02:31 PM (QPoJb)

356 352
wow the muslim savages didn't just burn the man alive, they beat him, and pushed him around the crowd...pants-less

Posted by: Soothsayer at February 03, 2015 02:30 PM (FiWED

The audacity of some Frats.

Posted by: Misanthropic Humanitrian at February 03, 2015 02:31 PM (/GgDU)

357 If kids are home not infecting anyone then how did the infected kid get sick to begin with?

Posted by: NCKate at February 03, 2015 02:31 PM (EBMYe)

358 The Peruvian Party

Posted by: brevity at February 03, 2015 02:31 PM (jmN7w)

359 The Party Party

Posted by: Andrew W K at February 03, 2015 02:31 PM (Hv3LR)

360 Not being a medical type, maybe someone can clarify something for me. If I vaccinate my kid and someone else doesn't vaccinate theirs, why should I GAF? If the other kid gets measles because they weren't vaccinated, my kid isn't going to get it. Right? Or am I missing something?
Posted by: Country Singer at February 03, 2015 02:29 PM (8hctH)

Vaccines are not 100% effective so yes, your child could catch it. that is why it is important all kids get vaccinated

Posted by: Nevergiveup at February 03, 2015 02:31 PM (LJcWW)

361 "who were patrolling around a synagogue "

He had a knife, they presumably had firearms. Or were they the "constabulary" that we've learned do not carry weapons.

Posted by: Ricardo Kill at February 03, 2015 02:31 PM (LA7Cm)

362 Are you stupid?

We've all lost IQ points reading your crap.

And you may not even know your kid has the rubella until he's already been infectious and blinded someone's baby. Nature of the disease.

Posted by: HR needs donuts at February 03, 2015 02:32 PM (ZKzrr)

363 I don't get to force your kid to get a shot, you don't get to let your kid give mine a horrible disease.

I must be missing something - if my kids are vaccinated, why do I care if other peoples' are? My kids won't get sick then.

Posted by: Ian S. at February 03, 2015 02:32 PM (B/VB5)

364 @15: #DontImmolateMeBro

Posted by: Josh at February 03, 2015 02:32 PM (oM6s/)

365 False. All 50 states have laws on the books for kids to be immunized if they are going to attend public schools. They vary state to state but there are laws. If you want to keep your kid out of publicly funded organizations like schools you can do as you please. Put them into a publicly funded situation and the rules change.
Posted by: JackStraw

Unless that kid is an illegal. Then anything can, will and has made it into the school and no one gives a fuck.

Posted by: Blue Hen at February 03, 2015 02:32 PM (Spluw)

366 >>>You want fucking asinine? That's fucking asinine.
Posted by: troyriser at February 03, 2015 02:13 PM (CAJL/)>>>

Rand Paul does not consider himself a big or little "L" libertarian. If you don't think he's your ally on a majority of issues, you're a statist or an idiot.

Posted by: gm at February 03, 2015 02:32 PM (/kBoL)

367 I tend to agree with the notion that it should be on the individual to choose to vaccinate their children, but I think I'm not happy about him not reinforcing the idea that vaccinations are dangerous.

It should be with a parent and their pediatrician about whether or not babies are vaccinated but unless the parents/doctor determine that there's a health reason not to vaccinate or there is a religious objection, vaccination is the socially responsible thing to do at least for the sake of the people who absolutely cannot do it for whatever reason. (support herd immunity!!!)

So while I support the idea of allowing people to choose whether or not to vaccinate I would much rather see the politician come out and say that it is socially responsible to get your family vaccinated.

Posted by: Becky at February 03, 2015 02:32 PM (Xqyhu)

368 Because if my kid is sick, they stay the hell home, where they aren't infecting anyone.

Posted by: GMan at February 03, 2015 02:29 PM (sxq57)

This is weapons-grade ignorance.

Incubation period when measles is infectious approximately four days....and that is without any symptoms.

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at February 03, 2015 02:32 PM (Zu3d9)

369 Posted by: Nevergiveup at February 03, 2015 02:31 PM (LJcWW)

Got it, I wasn't thinking of the % effectiveness angle. I figured I was missing something.

Posted by: Country Singer at February 03, 2015 02:32 PM (8hctH)

370 "Responsible Party"

Posted by: wooga at February 03, 2015 02:32 PM (HoRFj)

371 Are you stupid? I believe you may be. Because if my kid is sick, they stay the hell home, where they aren't infecting anyone.

Bull, in many cases the person/kid is infectious before symptoms appear. So your kids COULD infect 100's before you even notice. In which since I'm a heart patient could be deadly for me.

Posted by: wrg500 at February 03, 2015 02:33 PM (C278+)

372 If I vaccinate my kid and someone else doesn't vaccinate theirs, why should I GAF

Apparently the measles vaccine is something less than 100% effective. So your vaccinated kids will have a tiny, yet larger than zero chance of contracting measles (the last big outbreak affected mostly vaccinated high-school kids).

The chance of serious complications from measles is something less than 1%. So vaccinated kids have a tiny non-zero chance of catching the disease, and therefore a statistically insignificant chance of serious complications from it (like how vaccines are statistically safe).

Posted by: GMan at February 03, 2015 02:33 PM (sxq57)

373 Everyone is a fucking Epidemiologist now I see.

Epidemiology is like the sabermetrics of medicine. Remarkably complex. At best I can grasp parts of it, and I'm educated in this area.

But by all means lets just let random idiots dictate policy on it.

Posted by: tsrblke, PhD(c) and exhausted! new father! at February 03, 2015 02:33 PM (HDwDg)

374 If you don't vaccine, your kid is infected, and then your kid infects my kid, who then suffers greatly, I would hold you liable.

Any Horde lawyers who could comment on this?

Posted by: Feh at February 03, 2015 02:33 PM (8fUwE)

375 This isn't "how you raise your kid". This is "we're going to take your kid and give them drugs against your will."

Kind of different.
Posted by: GMan at February 03, 2015 02:23 PM (sxq57){/i]

Well forgive me all to Hell and gone for attempting to provide at least some amount of reasonable support for your position.

Posted by: alexthechick - The left one is Punch the right one is Judy at February 03, 2015 02:33 PM (mf5HN)

376 Noooooooooooooooooooooo. Save me closing tags!

Posted by: alexthechick - The left one is Punch the right one is Judy at February 03, 2015 02:34 PM (mf5HN)

377
Rand Paul does not consider himself a big or little "L" libertarian. If you don't think he's your ally on a majority of issues, you're a statist or an idiot.
Posted by: gm at February 03, 2015 02:32 PM (/kBoL)

I see you went to the ISIS Seminary of Mission work.

Posted by: Misanthropic Humanitrian at February 03, 2015 02:34 PM (/GgDU)

378 Monsieur Stabby's name is Moussa Coulibaly, from Mali and had just been expelled from.... Turkey. Seems that Erdogan's Turkey has better security against Muslim savages than does Hollande's France.

Posted by: boulder terlet hobo at February 03, 2015 02:34 PM (kxP8b)

379 >>Unless that kid is an illegal. Then anything can, will and has made it into the school and no one gives a fuck.

Yep. I said that up thread.

The reason we are seeing the return of diseases we had conquered or new and exciting diseases we don't have much experience with is thanks to Obama opening our borders.

Posted by: JackStraw at February 03, 2015 02:34 PM (g1DWB)

380

heh.

Posted by: GMan at February 03, 2015 02:34 PM (sxq57)

381
Here's a little secret: We're all a little stupid. If we were smart, we wouldn't spend our days and nights here.

Posted by: Soothsayer at February 03, 2015 02:34 PM (FiWED)

382 Not being a medical type, maybe someone can clarify something for me. If
I vaccinate my kid and someone else doesn't vaccinate theirs, why
should I GAF? If the other kid gets measles because they weren't
vaccinated, my kid isn't going to get it. Right? Or am I missing
something?

There's the chance that your kid is vaccinated and, for whatever reason, it didn't "take". Small percentage, but it does happen.

Or you just moved and the kid's booster shot is forgotten for a while in the chaos of moving. So, until the kid gets the booster, they're relying on "herd immunity".

Posted by: Blanco Basura at February 03, 2015 02:34 PM (UVfht)

383 Of course he did:

"Whatever ideology they're operating off of ... it's bankrupt."

Looks pretty profitable from here, sparknuts.

Posted by: weft cut-loop at February 03, 2015 02:35 PM (PhCVa)

384 Hello, AtC...

Posted by: The Barrel at February 03, 2015 02:35 PM (B/VB5)

385 Soothsayer,
Perhaps French shouldn't catch & release?
It seems released always return to Islamist extremists.

Posted by: Carol at February 03, 2015 02:35 PM (sj3Ax)

386 My kids won't get sick then.

Posted by: Ian S. at February 03, 2015 02:32 PM (B/VB5)

Immunity is never 100%

So even though your kids were sired by someone with a brain who had them vaccinated, it is possible that they get sick with whatever Mr. and Mr. hippy-douchebag-holistic-medicine-asshat's kids are carrying to school.

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at February 03, 2015 02:35 PM (Zu3d9)

387 "Found a nice little city about an hour north of Mesa. In the mountains, it has 4 seasons. I'll take snow a few days a year. "

Excellent.

Better buy the spread now. Apple announced a 2 BILLION dollar Global Command will be built in Mesa.

Posted by: Hopped Up On Something at February 03, 2015 02:35 PM (NHtMs)

388 Alex, oh so close, old friend.

Posted by: The Barrell at February 03, 2015 02:35 PM (LA7Cm)

389 It's been noted elsewhere that back when Polio was a problem, one of the concerns that school faculty had was essentially, "Which kids won't be coming back at the end of summer break because of polio?" It was a very real concern. And it affected a huge number of people. People died from it in huge numbers. My Dad's uncle got it. And while it didn't kill him, it left him with a permanent limp, and forced him to walk with a cane for the rest of his life. He was *very* lucky.

So while you might have some concerns about your kid suffering Bad Things(tm) from that particular vaccine, I really don't care. Refusing to vaccinate your kids for polio is essentially a selfish crap shoot. You're selfishly gambling that EVERYONE ELSE is willing to take the risk that you're not. Because if they aren't willing to take that risk either, then the chance that your kid will die from polio is significantly higher than the chance that ANYTHING long-term will happen to them from the vaccine.

Posted by: junior at February 03, 2015 02:35 PM (UWFpX)

390 I understand that states have the power, but there is something frightening about a state having the power to stick a needle in you and inject you with something. Which is why it should be reserved for the most important diseases. Which is why we should use methods to get people to do it voluntarily - there will always be people who will resist this if it is only being done because the government is forcing them to do it.

This is pretty much the way the world was working until the left decided to ban smoking, but the smart left decided to stop vaccinating their kids.

In the end, I blame the left.

Posted by: SH at February 03, 2015 02:36 PM (gmeXX)

391 Because if my kid is sick, they stay the hell home, where they aren't infecting anyone.
--

You don't understand how infectious disease works. You don't seem to understand how any of this works.

Posted by: Costanza Defense at February 03, 2015 02:36 PM (ZPrif)

392 >>> If you don't vaccine, your kid is infected, and then your kid infects my kid, who then suffers greatly, I would hold you liable.

I would like to know if a suit can be brought against the Obama Administration for the influx of diseased illegals. Might be the best way to get at the paper trail behind the migration?

Posted by: Andrew W K at February 03, 2015 02:36 PM (Hv3LR)

393 Hell! Damnation! Ampersands!

Posted by: Stephen Price Blair at February 03, 2015 02:36 PM (J0IP0)

394 AtC, I understand that. I'm just pointing out that there's a difference.

And Heather, I'm sorry you're having a hard time with that reading thing today, but I actually did a full disclosure thing above it might be good for you to read. Or, you know, not...I don't care.

Posted by: GMan at February 03, 2015 02:36 PM (sxq57)

395 You need to vaccinate your kid because I don't want them giving the disease because their vaccination made not have been effective, right?

So then if your kids vaccination wasn't effective, why the fuck should we allow them into public school?

Posted by: Malcolm Tent at February 03, 2015 02:36 PM (QPoJb)

396 If anyone tries to vaccinate my kids, I'll convert my body mass to energy and blow up the entire Earth!

Posted by: CMan at February 03, 2015 02:36 PM (4QKpw)

397 So even though your kids were sired by someone with a brain who had them
vaccinated, it is possible that they get sick with whatever Mr. and Mr.
hippy-douchebag-holistic-medicine-asshat's kids are carrying to school.

Ok. But someone with a brain wouldn't send their kids to public school in the first place.

Posted by: Ian S. at February 03, 2015 02:36 PM (B/VB5)

398 If I vaccinate my kid and someone else doesn't vaccinate theirs, why should I GAF/i]

And then your kid gets leukemia, and chemotherapy wipes out her immune system, and the disease vector playing with the toys in the clinic waiting room gives her measles on top of it all, but hey, that's cool.

Posted by: HR needs donuts at February 03, 2015 02:37 PM (ZKzrr)

399 >>>Immunity is never 100%
--------

So says many oops babies.

Posted by: Misanthropic Humanitrian at February 03, 2015 02:37 PM (/GgDU)

400 (1) It's just scary to think that the govt could require that you be injected with stuff. At some point, if they decide to pull something jerky, all they have to do is call something a vaccine, and they have a path to your bloodstream.

(2) The right to be wrong is important. Part of what the drive to force this stuff on people is about is the presumed "infallibility of science" (can you say "Global Warming"?). They should always have to present a compelling story to gain compliance.

(3) Just because vaccines have a great past safety record doesn't mean that they couldn't possibly start putting untested stuff in them that could turn out to be bad later. Again, when given a "blank check" via force, they're more likely to be lax.

HOWEVER:

(4) There is an obvious need to reasonably protect ourselves from others. It would be best, however, if this were fairly voluntary. Not letting kids in school (or simply not allowing them near the other kids), or imposing stiff penalties (including jail time) if you or your kid pass on some nasty disease are ideas.

Posted by: Optimizer at February 03, 2015 02:37 PM (/q6+P)

401 When speaking of Mr. Paul the Younger, I prefer the saying:

"The road apple doesn't fall far from the horse's ass."

Update to the AoS Style Manual?

Posted by: Sharkman at February 03, 2015 02:37 PM (72D6h)

402 Rand Paul does not consider himself a big or little "L" libertarian. If you don't think he's your ally on a majority of issues, you're a statist or an idiot.
Posted by: gm at February 03, 2015 02:32 PM (/kBoL)

Binary little paulbot, aren't you? *beep beep whir click*

Posted by: troyriser at February 03, 2015 02:37 PM (CAJL/)

403
You don't understand how infectious disease works. You don't seem to understand how any of this works.

Actually, since *my* background is in microbiology and molecular biology, I'd be willing to bet that I have a better handle on it than you.

Posted by: GMan at February 03, 2015 02:37 PM (sxq57)

404 If I vaccinate my kid and someone else doesn't vaccinate theirs, why should I GAF? If the other kid gets measles because they weren't vaccinated, my kid isn't
going to get it. Right? Or am I missing something?

If you get your kid vaccinated on Tuesday, yet he came in contact with a sick kid the day before.....

Posted by: rickb223 at February 03, 2015 02:37 PM (gt0r0)

405 So close.

Posted by: The Barrel at February 03, 2015 02:38 PM (Hv3LR)

406 Posted by: Muldoon, a solid man at February 03, 2015 02:29 PM (NeFrd)

Yeah, I didn't say it was easy.

Because if my kid is sick, they stay the hell home, where they aren't infecting anyone.

Posted by: GMan at February 03, 2015 02:29 PM (sxq57)

You do realize that with many diseases you can be infectious before your symptomatic, yes? And that with others, you can be infectious after you've stopped being symptomatic.

And that doesn't even get into the concept of disease carriers (those who never develop symptoms, but can spread the disease anyway).

The only ways to be sure *enough* that your kid isn't going to give my kid Measles are a) get your kid vaccinated, or b) sequester your child at home for his entire life.

So, since you're not going to sequester your child at home for his entire life (and society really couldn't morally enforce that one anyway- there are too many other things to consider there) society d*mn well better be able to "force" you to vaccinate your child for deadly/crippling diseases.

The thing here is, everyone who is "pro-mandate" is accepting that there's a line. We can do this, we can't do that.

YOU are not. Not only does society not have the authority to mandate vaccinations, you should suffer no specific ill consequences for *not* vaccinating your child.

Think about that for a minute.

Posted by: AllenG (DedicatedTenther) - TrueCon at February 03, 2015 02:38 PM (kff5f)

407 So then if your kids vaccination wasn't effective, why the fuck should we allow them into public school?

Posted by: Malcolm Tent at February 03, 2015 02:36 PM (QPoJb)

Weapons grade fucking stupid.

I know it's hard I just said that up thread, but could people at least try to understand it?

Nope, OK then.

Posted by: tsrblke, PhD(c) and exhausted! new father! at February 03, 2015 02:38 PM (HDwDg)

408 I think I'm OK with mandatory vaccinations for children as part of the requirement for participating in the public school system. Seemed to work out OK for me.

*twitches, rocks back and forth*

Posted by: Moderate Salami at February 03, 2015 02:38 PM (/Ho8c)

409 >>>I would like to know if a suit can be brought against the Obama Administration for the influx of diseased illegals---

No, but you're cute in thinking that you can sue your royalty.

Posted by: Misanthropic Humanitrian at February 03, 2015 02:38 PM (/GgDU)

410 Is this now a smart medical blog?

Posted by: SH at February 03, 2015 02:39 PM (gmeXX)

411 Not being a medical type, maybe someone can clarify something for me. If I vaccinate my kid and someone else doesn't vaccinate theirs, why should I GAF? If the other kid gets measles because they weren't vaccinated, my kid isn't going to get it. Right? Or am I missing something?

Whenever anti-Vaccers tell people to educate themselves on the dangers of vaccination, the above argument shortly follows. Clearly many Anti-vaccers don't do a good job on educating themselves.

Posted by: Sean at February 03, 2015 02:39 PM (o3U8H)

412 >>>Vaccines are not 100% effective so yes, your child could catch it. that is why it is important all kids get vaccinated
Posted by: Nevergiveup at February 03, 2015 02:31 PM (LJcWW)>>>

Sure, all kids should get vaccinated. But the government shouldn't force it (not as SOP anyway). Otherwise, the government can use this argument to turn us into slaves "for our own good."

And, I read that sidebar story about that doctor who took his immunosuppressed kid with cancer to Disneyland and was pissed that she was exposed to measles. WTF?! My sister just died of cancer and was immunosuppressed before that; she stayed in her house all the time and I wouldn't let my fully immunized kids go over there for fear that she'd pick something up from them that would kill her, like a cold or the flu. And these people took their kid to DISNEYLAND?! Seems absolutely CRAZY to me. But, hey, they need to blame someone (else) I guess.

Posted by: gm at February 03, 2015 02:39 PM (/kBoL)

413 Actually, since *my* background is in microbiology and molecular biology, I'd be willing to bet that I have a better handle on it than you.

Posted by: GMan at February 03, 2015 02:37 PM (sxq57)

So is mine!

Given the average knowledgebase in that field I'm going to go with "no."

Posted by: tsrblke, PhD(c) and exhausted! new father! at February 03, 2015 02:39 PM (HDwDg)

414 If the other kid gets measles because they weren't vaccinated, my kid isn't going to get it. Right? Or am I missing something?
Posted by: Country Singer at February 03, 2015 02:29 PM (8hctH)

That is the correct attitude to have.

But as others will point out, there is a small but real chance that someone who is up to date on their vaccines and boosters may unknowingly be walking around unvaccinated (some peoples bodies dont make the right anti bodies unless they actually catch measles, for example) and could be susceptible.

So due to that low, but real risk, they say that parents must be forced at gun point to vaccinate every child.

Posted by: mynewhandle at February 03, 2015 02:39 PM (AkOaV)

415 Here's a little secret: We're all a little stupid. If we were smart, we wouldn't spend our days and nights here.
Posted by: Soothsayer

Correction. We ARE the smart ones. That's why we're here.

Posted by: rickb223 at February 03, 2015 02:39 PM (gt0r0)

416 The Party All the Time Party

Posted by: Eddie Murphy at February 03, 2015 02:39 PM (f8y+G)

417 All of you know that this arguement wasn't even a fraction this big until Dear Leader and his regime started purposely importing tens of thousands of third world people into this country this last summer. THIS is our main problem. Not whether vaccines are safe or not.

Posted by: Soona at February 03, 2015 02:39 PM (/HX7u)

418 Explain to me how a child who's vaccination was not effective is different then one who simply was never vaccinated in terms of contagion risks to the rest of the children.

Shouldn't children who's vaccination was not effective also be banned from school?

Posted by: Malcolm Tent at February 03, 2015 02:40 PM (QPoJb)

419 @350 Not being a medical type, maybe someone can clarify something for me. If I vaccinate my kid and someone else doesn't vaccinate theirs, why should I GAF? If the other kid gets measles because they weren't vaccinated, my kid isn't going to get it. Right? Or am I missing something?
-------------------------

See my comment up @91 above. My sister received the vaccine twice. It didn't take, and she got Measles - probably during a recent visit to Disneyland. It's a known, albeit very rare issue.

Posted by: junior at February 03, 2015 02:40 PM (UWFpX)

420 357 If kids are home not infecting anyone then how did the infected kid get sick to begin with?
Posted by: NCKate at February 03, 2015 02:31 PM (EBMYe)

1. Disneyland, just about the biggest international tourist destination in the known universe, where anyone from anywhere in the world can come, cough their innards all over the turnstiles, and infect anyone else that happens to be visiting.

2. open borders.

Posted by: Mandy P., lurking lurker who lurks at February 03, 2015 02:40 PM (KkVB6)

421 Actually, since *my* background is in microbiology and molecular biology, I'd be willing to bet that I have a better handle on it than you.

--
Sure it is.

Myself, I'm an astronaut with a PhD in epidemiology. I also won two Olympic gold medals and started Google.

Posted by: Costanza Defense at February 03, 2015 02:40 PM (ZPrif)

422 "322
Yes, I am not okay with your kid becoming an active biological hazard to mine. Sorry, that's kind of a big deal.

Too fucking bad.

You don't own my kid. I don't own yours. You don't get to give my kid a shot if I don't want you to.

Posted by: GMan at February 03, 2015 02:24 PM (sxq57)"

Gentlemen, gentlemen, can't we compromise? My modest proposal is that GMan does not have to vaccinate his children as long as he does not send them to public school and never allows them to be in any crowds or public accommodations like movies, stores, ammusement parks, airplanes or other public transportation, playgrounds, libraries, museums or post offices. I would impose the additional requirement that anti-vaxxers wear a distinctive symbol sewed to their clothing so that they can be known from a distance and people who are immune impaired through no choice of their own can avoid them. Perhaps they should also carry a rattle in order to warn the visually impaired.

But you can't force them to vaccinate their kids.

Posted by: Obnoxious A-Hole at February 03, 2015 02:40 PM (KDbAT)

423 Given the average knowledgebase in that field I'm going to go with "no."

Aww, come on. Against someone that's had NO training in this stuff in any way at all? I mean, not even taking grad level immunology, and all that?

Posted by: GMan at February 03, 2015 02:40 PM (sxq57)

424 So then if your kids vaccination wasn't effective, why the fuck should we allow them into public school?
Posted by: Malcolm Tent at February 03, 2015 02:36 PM (QPoJb)

I'm not sure you can honestly tell if the vaccine was effective for any given individual until the next major outbreak. The point of the vaccination is to a) prevent the person in question from catching it but also to b) prevent a major outbreak which would affect anyone who either isn't vaccinated or was ineffectively vaccinated.

Posted by: Anderson Cooper's Smoked Sausages at February 03, 2015 02:40 PM (MbqmP)

425 Read in comments over at Hot Air, something like "if you want the benefits of public education, your kids should have to be immunized." LOL. Benefits of public education. How quaint.

Posted by: gm at February 03, 2015 02:41 PM (/kBoL)

426 Only the GOP can screw up something as simple as the correct stance on MMR/Polio vaccinations.

You don't want to get your child vaccinated fine but they won't be attending school and if it can be traced back to you or your brat spreading a contagious disease you will be fined up the wazoo and or sued civily for damages.

I'm sick of this crap with nobody in the GOP being able to think or strategize.

This recent outbreak of a communicable disease could have been tied nicely to other outbreaks of diseases that have been no doubt spread by the massive influx of illegal aliens but NOOOO team stupid has no capacity for long range planning or strategery.

And nobody is going to convince me the vector can't be tied back to illegal aliens.

Useless!! Useless.

I really can't believe there is actually a discussion or debate on the efficacy of the MMR/Polio vaccine and that it should be mandatory.

The reason we are having outbreaks of MMR and other mystery diseases is because of stupid parents and illegals.

The GOP could and should be using this outbreak and the others to their advantage instead they have allowed the libs to turn it around on them.

Much like the GOPs massive electoral victory seems to have paralyzed them with fear and allowed Obama to be strengthened.

This is all just incredibly ridiculous.

Posted by: Kreplach at February 03, 2015 02:41 PM (DDFkt)

427 So are all the anti-vax mandate people here also willing to submit to the idea that the government cannot quarantine? Because that's the only logical conclusion you can reach here.

And if quarantine isn't possible...whoa nelly, we're in for a fun time.

Posted by: tsrblke, PhD(c) and exhausted! new father! at February 03, 2015 02:41 PM (HDwDg)

428 Is this now a smart medical blog?
Posted by: SH

Combat medicine.

Posted by: rickb223 at February 03, 2015 02:41 PM (gt0r0)

429 Everyone is a fucking Epidemiologist now I see.

Epidemiology is like the sabermetrics of medicine. Remarkably complex. At best I can grasp parts of it, and I'm educated in this area.

But by all means lets just let random idiots dictate policy on it.
Posted by: tsrblke, PhD(c) and exhausted! new father! at February 03, 2015 02:33 PM (HDwDg)

Apparently Vox is now doing epidemiology and determined that the Amish are where the measles outbreak started.

I'm terrified to go look.

Posted by: alexthechick - The left one is Punch the right one is Judy at February 03, 2015 02:41 PM (mf5HN)

430
Close tags in nicks are cheating.

And I've been longing for AtC to get here in the barrel.

Posted by: Hentai Squid at February 03, 2015 02:41 PM (JtwS4)

431 Only an irresponsible idiot, a bad parent, and a weak minded tool easily swayed by stupid hysteria would avoid vaccinating their children. Period. That's just wrong and stupid. I think everyone here agrees with that, and if you don't frankly I hope you never breed or find love to begin with so you never threaten the gene pool with your taint.

The question here is not whether vaccinations are good or whether children are at risk. Its whether we can trust government today with power of any kind.

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at February 03, 2015 02:41 PM (39g3+)

432 Only the GOP can screw up something as simple as the correct stance on MMR/Polio vaccinations.

----

I'm still at a loss in understanding how the GOP screwed this up?

Posted by: SH at February 03, 2015 02:42 PM (gmeXX)

433 >>>Shouldn't children who's vaccination was not effective also be banned from school?
Posted by: Malcolm Tent at February 03, 2015 02:40 PM (QPoJb)>>>

To hear some here, I guess they should just be locked up for the remainder of their lives, like Typhoid Mary.

Posted by: gm at February 03, 2015 02:42 PM (/kBoL)

434 Suggest vaccination records be updated at Disneyland, by order of JEF, and this shit would stop fast.

Or in order to board a jet flight to the US.

But it's easier to attack parents of children. Should they get the shots? yup.
Does it matter if the shots don't take and you get infected by the tower of Babel? Not much.

Posted by: Blue Hen at February 03, 2015 02:43 PM (Spluw)

435 The GOP could and should be using this outbreak and the others to their advantage

You're forgetting that the GOPe wants the illegals here.

Posted by: GMan at February 03, 2015 02:43 PM (sxq57)

436 And Heather, I'm sorry you're having a hard time with that reading thing today/i]

I say this because I care: Go fuck yourself with a Sawzall, you loathsome piece of shit. I read your disclaimer. You are still arguing you have a right to ruin the lives of other people's children, and you are still wrong. Wrong, wrong, wrong; disgustingly, inhumanly wrong.

Posted by: HR needs donuts at February 03, 2015 02:43 PM (ZKzrr)

437 On mandatory vaccinations, I'm with Ace on the slippery slope aspect. It's easy to get herded into compliance on issues involving kids. If we applied similar standards of compulsory compliance vs. likelihood and level of threat to other areas of society (e..g gun ownership), you end up arguing for the nanny state.

How many kids die from firearm accidents every year vs. measles ? How many are seriously injured by gun accidents vs. debilitation from long term childhood disease complications?

When you push for perfect outcomes on anything involving society, including vaccinating our kids, you have to reach totalitarian levels of power to overcome that last 10% of error. 100% freedom from risk is like society's version of the speed of light in physics.

Posted by: SocietyIs2Blame at February 03, 2015 02:43 PM (QKIQb)

438 Posted by: alexthechick - The left one is Punch the right one is Judy at February 03, 2015 02:41 PM (mf5HN)

Good fuckign lord. Building the theoretical spread models his hard enough (there's usually some advanced math involved.)

Actually doing disease tracing? Yeah, that's nearly impossible for an untrained idiot.

Posted by: tsrblke, PhD(c) and exhausted! new father! at February 03, 2015 02:43 PM (HDwDg)

439 Do the non-vaxers line up with the "home healing" crowd that won't take their kids to a doctor when they have serious medical issues?

Posted by: Ricardo Kill at February 03, 2015 02:44 PM (LA7Cm)

440 Illegals brought these diseases here after we had eradicated measles, polio, etc.

Posted by: Carol at February 03, 2015 02:44 PM (sj3Ax)

441 Anti-vaxxers are just stupid on steroids.

Posted by: Costanza Defense at February 03, 2015 02:44 PM (ZPrif)

442 The question here is not whether vaccinations are good or whether children are at risk. Its whether we can trust government today with power of any kind.

Yep. But there's a ton of folks here that seem to think that allowing the government to force med. decisions on people is a great idea.

Posted by: GMan at February 03, 2015 02:44 PM (sxq57)

443 So are all the anti-vax mandate people here also willing to submit to the idea that the government cannot quarantine? Because that's the only logical conclusion you can reach here. And if quarantine isn't possible...whoa nelly, we're in for a fun time.
Posted by: tsrblke
That's aceptable.......for everyone EXCEPT MYSELF.

Posted by: Ebolanurse at February 03, 2015 02:44 PM (Spluw)

444 Aww, come on. Against someone that's had NO training in this stuff in any way at all? I mean, not even taking grad level immunology, and all that?
Posted by: GMan at February 03, 2015 02:40 PM (sxq57

And the JEF was an instructor at a college. BFD.

Posted by: Misanthropic Humanitrian at February 03, 2015 02:44 PM (/GgDU)

445 I don't want your kid bringing diseases that my child is immune to around them!

Immunizations do not grant 100% immunity. Immunizations grant resistance.

So, while I will take rational steps to ensure my own child's safety, *yes* I will also require that you do the same.

The other issue is that the more often one is exposed to a disease, the more likely that one will *contract* the disease.

So the only kid to get the Polio vaccine was much better off than the kids who didn't get it at all, but was far from "safe." So the fewer kids who get vaccinated, the more likely the ones who *do* will contract the disease anyway.

Posted by: AllenG (DedicatedTenther) - TrueCon at February 03, 2015 02:44 PM (kff5f)

446 And, I read that sidebar story about that doctor who took his
immunosuppressed kid with cancer to Disneyland and was pissed that she
was exposed to measles.

You didn't read it very carefully. The doctor's kids were exposed at Phoenix lab facility where a kid from a different family who was exposed to measles at Disneyland was also present.

Posted by: Blanco Basura at February 03, 2015 02:45 PM (UVfht)

447 >>>431 Only an irresponsible idiot, a bad parent, and a weak minded tool easily swayed by stupid hysteria would avoid vaccinating their children. Period. That's just wrong and stupid.

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at February 03, 2015 02:41 PM (39g3+)>>>

Look. Public education is all about teaching leftist fads and causes as being "science." The products of this system have absolutely no understanding as to how to analyze information and determine its validity.

Posted by: gm at February 03, 2015 02:45 PM (/kBoL)

448 Is this now a smart medical blog?

-
If it were I'd link the article on Blaze that says that porn is not good for you because when you get all worked up the lizard part of your brain takes over and you do stupid wrong stuff. Never saw that coming.

Posted by: The Great White Snark at February 03, 2015 02:45 PM (XUKZU)

449 Shouldn't children who's vaccination was not effective also be banned from school?

Posted by: Malcolm Tent at February 03, 2015 02:40 PM (QPoJb)

Well, testing everyone for the antibodies for every childhood disease will cost a lot of money.

And if that were the only issue then herd immunity would be fine anyway.

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at February 03, 2015 02:45 PM (Zu3d9)

450 A good compromise would be to provide mandatory documentation to the IRS of all vaccinations of your dependent children. Non-compliant citizens will face a ~~penalty~~ tax.

No, no, don't thank me. Happy to help.

Posted by: Emperor Barry the First at February 03, 2015 02:45 PM (NHtMs)

451 See, Heather, I'm actually trying to be nice to you, but you're making it slightly difficult.

Posted by: GMan at February 03, 2015 02:45 PM (sxq57)

452
Apparently Vox is now doing epidemiology and determined that the Amish are where the measles outbreak started.

Amish in Qatar? That's funny.

Posted by: HR needs donuts at February 03, 2015 02:46 PM (ZKzrr)

453 I'm still at a loss in understanding how the GOP screwed this up?
--

They didn't, the media did. Obama and Hillary have said the exact same stupid flirt with the anti-vaxxers stuff. And most anti-vaxxers are progtard left-wingers.

It's the ProgMedia that's turning this into a Republicans Hate Science issue.

Most anti-vaxxers are progs, but some are Ronulans.

Posted by: Costanza Defense at February 03, 2015 02:46 PM (ZPrif)

454 Posted by: SocietyIs2Blame at February 03, 2015 02:43 PM (QKIQb)

You cannot conflate the public health issues with issues of private actions.

Me having a gun or a pool doesn't put your kid in any harm just because I have them. (Sure if you send your kid over and I'm irresponsible.)

No vaccinating actually does.

If we were willing to have an intelligent debate we could discuss which vaccines need to be mandatory and which don't. But no one wants to have that they all just want to furiously masturbate to their preferred position.

Posted by: tsrblke, PhD(c) and exhausted! new father! at February 03, 2015 02:46 PM (HDwDg)

455 If it were I'd link the article on Blaze that says that porn is not good for you because when you get all worked up the lizard part of your brain takes over and you do stupid wrong stuff. Never saw that coming.
Posted by: The Great White Snark at February 03, 2015 02:45 PM (XUKZU)

Stuff like what, other than fapping?

Posted by: Insomniac at February 03, 2015 02:46 PM (2Ojst)

456 @418 Explain to me how a child who's vaccination was not effective is different then one who simply was never vaccinated in terms of contagion risks to the rest of the children.

Shouldn't children who's vaccination was not effective also be banned from school?
------------------

Short of a blood test (and I don't even know if that would work), there's no way to tell that the vaccination didn't take until the person gets sick.

Posted by: junior at February 03, 2015 02:46 PM (UWFpX)

457 So are all the anti-vax mandate people here also willing to submit to the idea that the government cannot quarantine? Because that's the only logical conclusion you can reach here. And if quarantine isn't possible...whoa nelly, we're in for a fun time.
Posted by: tsrblke

----

I actually do not think it is a logical conclusion. Detention is not the same as forced injection. I think the state has the power to do both, but the former is much more acceptable than the latter.

Posted by: SH at February 03, 2015 02:46 PM (gmeXX)

458 Its the MEDIA who is making this an issue...

Just watched Fox... and of course, they had pundits on about it...

Repubs just need to say.... we have much more pressing issues to talk about...

Posted by: BB Wolf at February 03, 2015 02:47 PM (qh617)

459 I don't trust the guy. That's my problem.

Posted by: John Doe@Another Quidam at February 03, 2015 02:48 PM (g1MTt)

460 >>I'm still at a loss in understanding how the GOP screwed this up?

They didn't. More msm spin. Take a look at the NYT today saying that the vaccine debate puts the right in a tricky place because party of anti-science. This despite the fact that the left is the party of anti-vax by and large and there is a great article in the Blaze (I think, some righty place) showing the direct link between anti-vax and the trial lawyer lobby and Democracy Alliance among others.

Just more lefty msm spin.

Posted by: JackStraw at February 03, 2015 02:48 PM (g1DWB)

461 Illegals brought these diseases here after we had eradicated measles, polio, etc.
Posted by: Carol at February 03, 2015 02:44 PM (sj3Ax)

------------------------------------------

As I said upthread. THIS is our problem. An unchecked, non-secure southern border, where anyone with every disease known to man can enter with impunity.

Posted by: Soona at February 03, 2015 02:48 PM (/HX7u)

462 Repubs just need to say.... we have much more pressing issues to talk about...
Posted by: BB Wolf

Then the MFM spins it as repubs don't think that it's important. my suggestion is, "I disagree with the fear mongering epxreesed by obama and the hildabeast, and the cavalier attitude of obama.

next question

Posted by: Ebolanurse at February 03, 2015 02:48 PM (Spluw)

463 From teh Blaze anti-porn article:

"a recently released study analyzing porn use among young men found that those who consume it are potentially less likely to get married."

And this is a problem, why? Moar pr0n!

Posted by: Insomniac at February 03, 2015 02:48 PM (2Ojst)

464 They didn't, the media did.

----

I still think this is a fight the GOP, the right, conservatives, whoever should be willing to give to the left. But whatever.

Posted by: SH at February 03, 2015 02:48 PM (gmeXX)

465 If it were I'd link the article on Blaze that says that porn is not good for you because when you get all worked up the lizard part of your brain takes over and you do stupid wrong stuff.

Porn is bad for us, and we don't need science to come up with some reason. We all know it deep down. But being bad for you doesn't mean "should be banned" or "there ought to be a law."

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at February 03, 2015 02:49 PM (39g3+)

466 What's that you say? Measles? With an "M"?

Whew. I thought for a minute we were talking about Weasels!

Posted by: Muldoon, a solid man at February 03, 2015 02:49 PM (NeFrd)

467 >>>Short of a blood test (and I don't even know if that would work), there's no way to tell that the vaccination didn't take until the person gets sick.
Posted by: junior at February 03, 2015 02:46 PM (UWFpX)>>>

We should inoculate them, and then expose them to live virus just to be sure. For the good of the collective.

Posted by: gm at February 03, 2015 02:49 PM (/kBoL)

468 Stuff like what, other than fapping?

-
Well, I never fap or look at porn so I assume it's going off your diet.

Posted by: The Great White Snark at February 03, 2015 02:49 PM (XUKZU)

469 Stuff like what, other than fapping?

-
Well, I never fap or look at porn so I assume it's going off your diet.

Posted by: The Great White Snark at February 03, 2015 02:49 PM (XUKZU)

470 "If we were willing to have an intelligent debate we could discuss which vaccines need to be mandatory and which don't. "

Wouldn't that start, as it has for decades in this country, with the known killer and mamers? Polio, measles, mumps, etc.

When you get to flu (which isn't today the killer it once was) then I can see the option of not having it.

Posted by: Ricardo Kill at February 03, 2015 02:49 PM (LA7Cm)

471 Posted by: SH at February 03, 2015 02:46 PM (gmeXX)

With quarantine you have due process of law... Courts can get involved.

With vaccines, it will be run by the FDA... and the Surgeon General...

go take a look at our current Surgeon General and tell me if you trust THIS guy with the power to decide what to inject in your body...

Posted by: BB Wolf at February 03, 2015 02:49 PM (qh617)

472 epubs just need to say.... we have much more pressing issues to talk about...
Posted by: BB Wolf

----

That may be a good idea. But why not fight the left and the media on this?

Posted by: SH at February 03, 2015 02:49 PM (gmeXX)

473 No one likes NC?

Posted by: Carol at February 03, 2015 02:49 PM (sj3Ax)

474 "a recently released study analyzing porn use among young men found that those who consume it are potentially less likely to get married."

Ahh, man NOW they tell me.

Posted by: wrg500 at February 03, 2015 02:49 PM (C278+)

475 Man, I've got a bad case of the double posts here the last couple of weeks.

Posted by: The Great White Snark at February 03, 2015 02:50 PM (XUKZU)

476 Those aren't vaccines! They're just trying to pollute your precious bodily fluids!!!!!

Posted by: CMan at February 03, 2015 02:50 PM (4QKpw)

477 Well, I never fap or look at porn so I assume it's going off your diet.
Posted by: The Great White Snark at February 03, 2015 02:49 PM (XUKZU)

You are a lying liarton who lies.

Posted by: Insomniac at February 03, 2015 02:50 PM (2Ojst)

478 Better question: Who is dictating the conversation? We get agents spilling in unchecked from other countries... breakouts occur... people die... and the terms of the conversation become a "civil war" about freaking vaccines.

Posted by: Mega at February 03, 2015 02:50 PM (hHFOx)

479 Weasels!

Posted by: Muldoon, a solid man at February 03, 2015 02:49 PM (NeFrd)

Did you know that weasels are naturally immune to measles?

Posted by: Weasels R US at February 03, 2015 02:50 PM (Zu3d9)

480 I'll never go to prom, or get married, or get cooties. Hell, I'll never even have a chance to get measles.

Posted by: Dead Nationwide kid at February 03, 2015 02:50 PM (NeFrd)

481 I have to admit, the comments here made me realize there are more anti-vax idiots on the Right than I realized. I knew about the fringe Christian sects that fear all modern medicine. I forgot about/overestimated the intellect of the Paulians.

Posted by: Costanza Defense at February 03, 2015 02:50 PM (ZPrif)

482 >>>I still think this is a fight the GOP, the right, conservatives, whoever should be willing to give to the left. But whatever.
Posted by: SH at February 03, 2015 02:48 PM (gmeXX)>>>

Fucking birth control / War on Women all over again. And they leftist media didn't even need Stephanopoulos this time.

Posted by: gm at February 03, 2015 02:50 PM (/kBoL)

483 465 If it were I'd link the article on Blaze that says that porn is not good for you because when you get all worked up the lizard part of your brain takes over and you do stupid wrong stuff.

Porn is bad for us, and we don't need science to come up with some reason. We all know it deep down. But being bad for you doesn't mean "should be banned" or "there ought to be a law."

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at February 03, 2015 02:49 PM (39g3+)

and note.... isn't that the exact reason why Islam says women must go around covered up?

Posted by: BB Wolf at February 03, 2015 02:51 PM (qh617)

484 "I actually do not think it is a logical conclusion. Detention is not the same as forced injection."

But it is an organized governmental action in order to protect the greater public from a serious epidemic.

Is that what a vaccination does?

Posted by: Ricardo Kill at February 03, 2015 02:51 PM (LA7Cm)

485 Porn is bad for us, and we don't need science to come up with some reason. We all know it deep down. But being bad for you doesn't mean "should be banned" or "there ought to be a law."
Posted by: Christopher Taylor at February 03, 2015 02:49 PM (39g3+)

Aside from honest-to-God addiction, how it is "bad" for us? I'm asking seriously.

Posted by: Insomniac at February 03, 2015 02:51 PM (2Ojst)

486 How many kids die from firearm accidents every year vs. measles ?

How many kids died from firearm accidents in 1900 vs polio the same year?

Its whether we can trust government today with power of any kind.

Of course we can't trust government today with power of any kind. So our options are to start agitating for anarchy or accept that the government has powers with which it should be be trusted, and practice constant vigilance.

Which has nothing to do with the question, given an actual government with authority to govern, of whether that authority should extend to forcing children to be vaccinated, and if so where the "line" on that authority is drawn.

Posted by: AllenG (DedicatedTenther) - TrueCon at February 03, 2015 02:52 PM (kff5f)

487 With quarantine you have due process of law... Courts can get involved.

----

Right. But I think being against forced injections does not lead to being against quarantines. For DWI, I'm against drawing of blood (even with court order), but that doesn't mean I am against the consequences for a person's failure to submit to a blood sample. The two actions are very different - in my mind.

Posted by: SH at February 03, 2015 02:52 PM (gmeXX)

488 When you get to flu (which isn't today the killer it once was) then I can see the option of not having it.

Posted by: Ricardo Kill at February 03, 2015 02:49 PM (LA7Cm)

I think it'd have to start with vaccine effectiveness as well as method of disease transmission.

If herd immunity isn't a possibility I see no reason to require vaccination.

I'm also slightly squishy on non-airborne diseases. I'm getting my kid vaccinated for them because no matter how hard I try I can't prevent a stupid teenager choice so I'll prepare for it.
But if people want to assume their kid is going to never make a bad choice...meh that's their problem.

Posted by: tsrblke, PhD(c) and exhausted! new father! at February 03, 2015 02:52 PM (HDwDg)

489 "You don't want to get your child vaccinated fine but they won't be
attending school and if it can be traced back to you or your brat
spreading a contagious disease you will be fined up the wazoo and or
sued civily for damages."

I'm open to your argument about requiring vaccines for public school attendance. But you're opening up the logical door for criminal or tort liability for a lot of other low-probability, non-lethal risk scenarios. We can't lower the threat level for children to helicopter parent-approved levels without the usual idiots pushing that envelope for a host of non-child-related risks - second-hand smoke, etc.

I don't normally like slippery slope arguments but the "for the children" slope is very steep and very slick.

Posted by: SocietyIs2Blame at February 03, 2015 02:52 PM (QKIQb)

490 480 I'll never go to prom, or get married, or get cooties. Hell, I'll never even have a chance to get measles.
Posted by: Dead Nationwide kid at February 03, 2015 02:50 PM (NeFrd)

Or watch porn, but that's bad for you, so...upside.

Posted by: Insomniac at February 03, 2015 02:52 PM (2Ojst)

491 We should inoculate them, and then expose them to live virus just to be sure. For the good of the collective.

Posted by: gm at February 03, 2015 02:49 PM (/kBoL)

Why? The studies on immunity have already been done, and any data gathered from such a small study would be of little value.

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at February 03, 2015 02:52 PM (Zu3d9)

492 The brown streak on Ron Paul's whites has all the symptosms of a false flag operation.

Posted by: bourbonchicken at February 03, 2015 02:52 PM (nWrKZ)

493 Whew. I thought for a minute we were talking about Weasels!

I can't imagine how painful that would be, weasels running rampant through your bloodstream.

Posted by: Blanco Basura at February 03, 2015 02:52 PM (UVfht)

494 Both Clinton and Obama flirted with the anti-vaxxers in 08.

Chuck Ross @ChuckRossDC 2m2 minutes ago
Post updated with full copies of Clinton, Obama vaccination questionnaire responses.
http://t.co/VMziLU3SnT

Posted by: Costanza Defense at February 03, 2015 02:52 PM (ZPrif)

495 Put me some knowledge:

Does a school's requirement to immunize your kids derive from a federal requirement? If not, then there's no totalitarian issue.

If this amnesty crap moves forward, can we make immunizations mandatory in order to receive a driver's license or whatever ID they're going to hand out like candy?

Posted by: Feh at February 03, 2015 02:52 PM (8fUwE)

496 Basically, this is all just governing by risk aversion.

Why not ban guns? It will create a herd immunity against gun-shot. Sure, it will not be 100% effective, but overall it will reduce the risk of gunshot.

Posted by: Malcolm Tent at February 03, 2015 02:52 PM (QPoJb)

497 480 I'll never go to prom, or get married, or get cooties. Hell, I'll never even have a chance to get measles.
Posted by: Dead Nationwide kid at February 03, 2015 02:50 PM (NeFrd)

And you are actually in a better place. :-)

Posted by: Misanthropic Humanitrian at February 03, 2015 02:53 PM (/GgDU)

498 This recent outbreak of a communicable disease could have been tied nicely to other outbreaks of diseases that have been no doubt spread by the massive influx of illegal aliens but NOOOO team stupid has no capacity for long range planning or strategery.

And nobody is going to convince me the vector can't be tied back to illegal aliens.

**************

That's because Team Stupid (ie, the GOP) doesn't want to say something that might eff up the immigration. They want the illegals here because their cronies want a cheaper labor force. Helping to trace the recent outbreaks to the borders being wide open is counterproductive to importing cheap workers.

Posted by: Mandy P., lurking lurker who lurks at February 03, 2015 02:53 PM (KkVB6)

499 Then the MFM spins it as repubs don't think that it's important. my suggestion is, "I disagree with the fear mongering epxreesed by obama and the hildabeast, and the cavalier attitude of obama.

As when Reagan, upon being questioned about his age, said "I will not make age an issue of this campaign. I am not going to exploit, for political purposes, my opponent's youth and inexperience,"

Posted by: Bertram Cabot Jr. at February 03, 2015 02:53 PM (W5DcG)

500 493 Whew. I thought for a minute we were talking about Weasels!

I can't imagine how painful that would be, weasels running rampant through your bloodstream.
Posted by: Blanco Basura at February 03, 2015 02:52 PM (UVfht)

Weasels ripped my flesh

Posted by: Misanthropic Humanitrian at February 03, 2015 02:53 PM (/GgDU)

501 Posted by: Costanza Defense at February 03, 2015 02:50 PM (ZPrif)

Once again.... forcing divisions where there are none...

Am I an anti science anti Vaxer, because I think we, as a free people, should have some say over what the Government wants to put in my body???

Hell... my kids got every inoculation except ONE that was recommended...

But I have not had a flu shot since I left the Military.... and strangely... have not had the flu since then...

Posted by: BB Wolf at February 03, 2015 02:53 PM (qh617)

502 THE PROBLEM IS DISEASED ILLEGALS ENTERING OUR OPEN SOUTHERN BORDER!!

Posted by: Soona at February 03, 2015 02:54 PM (/HX7u)

503 Posted by: BB Wolf at February 03, 2015 02:49 PM (qh617

Well vaccine mandates occur at the state level.

So...
Posted by: SH at February 03, 2015 02:52 PM (gmeXX)

If we reworked the laws such that there was more "due process" (honestly there's already a shit ton of it but more is better) they'd be totes fine right?

Posted by: tsrblke, PhD(c) and exhausted! new father! at February 03, 2015 02:54 PM (HDwDg)

504 Reagan

Miss that dude.

Posted by: Feh at February 03, 2015 02:54 PM (8fUwE)

505 THE PROBLEM IS DISEASED ILLEGALS ENTERING OUR OPEN SOUTHERN BORDER?

Posted by: Rev. Al Sharpton at February 03, 2015 02:54 PM (2Ojst)

506 Fucking birth control / War on Women all over again. And they leftist media didn't even need Stephanopoulos this time.

----

I don't think the two are the same. The facts are this. This is an issue in liberal cities because rich liberals do not want to vaccinate their kids for unsubstantiated fears of autism. If the GOP can't fight and win that argument, then there is no reason for them to argue anything.

Posted by: SH at February 03, 2015 02:54 PM (gmeXX)

507 Yep. But there's a ton of folks here that seem to think that allowing the government to force med. decisions on people is a great idea.
Posted by: GMan at February 03, 2015 02:44 PM (sxq57)

What, exactly, do you think the government is going to vacinate your child with? Mind control serum?Mutant spider-goat genetic material?We're talking about disease vaccinations, the means by which the most deadly plagues known to man were brought under control or completely eradicated.

Your claims of a background in microbiology just don't seem believable. An appeal to the authority of credentials doesn't apply when you're using an Internet nic, 'GMan'.

Posted by: troyriser at February 03, 2015 02:55 PM (CAJL/)

508 Am I an anti science anti Vaxer, because I think we, as a free people, should have some say over what the Government wants to put in my body???

Apparently, yes.

Hell... my kids got every inoculation except ONE that was recommended...

Apparently doesn't matter.

Posted by: GMan at February 03, 2015 02:55 PM (sxq57)

509 >>>Which has nothing to do with the question, given an actual government with authority to govern, of whether that authority should extend to forcing children to be vaccinated, and if so where the "line" on that authority is drawn.
Posted by: AllenG (DedicatedTenther) - TrueCon at February 03, 2015 02:52 PM (kff5f)>>>

Your problem is that you treat all vaccinations as the equivalent of a polio or even measles vaccination. SOP should be vaccinations are voluntary, with exceptions made for special cases (like polio) after careful and public cost/benefit analysis.

Posted by: gm at February 03, 2015 02:55 PM (/kBoL)

510 If we were willing to have an intelligent debate we could discuss which vaccines need to be mandatory and which don't. But no one wants to have that

*raises hand*

I've been advocating just that. Or trying to.

Posted by: AllenG (DedicatedTenther) - TrueCon at February 03, 2015 02:55 PM (kff5f)

511 Soona,
I'm sorry.
I'm more interested in Hordes opinions of better cities & states to move to.

I wonder if the JEF is vaccinated?

Posted by: Carol at February 03, 2015 02:55 PM (sj3Ax)

512 510 If we were willing to have an intelligent debate we could discuss which vaccines need to be mandatory and which don't. But no one wants to have that

*raises hand*

I've been advocating just that. Or trying to.
Posted by: AllenG (DedicatedTenther) - TrueCon at February 03, 2015 02:55 PM (kff5f)

FUCKING RINO!!!

Posted by: Insomniac at February 03, 2015 02:56 PM (2Ojst)

513 Your claims of a background in microbiology just don't seem believable. An appeal to the authority of credentials doesn't apply when you're using an Internet nic, 'GMan'.

LOL. I explained once a year or two ago what my nic is (first letter of my first name, and I'm a guy, so...man).

But whatever. The diploma I've got here doesn't need you to believe it.

Posted by: GMan at February 03, 2015 02:56 PM (sxq57)

514 "How many kids died from firearm accidents in 1900 vs polio the same year?"

How many parents aren't going to vaccinate their kids vs. the entirely unvaccinated population of 1900? How many households where there isn't a gun have gun accidents ?

You're trying to hyperbolically hammer my square argument into your round pigeonhole.

Arguing that it's a bad idea to tailor government policy to account for deviations in less than 5% of the society is not "anarchy." You're nicely demonstrating my point about how "for the children" promotes overreaction.

Posted by: SocietyIs2Blame at February 03, 2015 02:56 PM (QKIQb)

515 Weasels ripped my flesh

You shouldn't have asked them for oral.

Posted by: Blanco Basura at February 03, 2015 02:57 PM (UVfht)

516 It's all about making pot legal. I don't much care about anything else.

Posted by: Paul Supporter at February 03, 2015 02:57 PM (V+BlF)

517 Posted by: gm at February 03, 2015 02:55 PM (/kBoL

Does anyone here actually know what vaccines are required?

In my state it's only TDAP, MMR, Polio and apparently they added HepB (but I'm not 100% sure of that.)

All of which fit your description!

Posted by: tsrblke, PhD(c) and exhausted! new father! at February 03, 2015 02:57 PM (HDwDg)

518 I once had an outbreak of weasels...

...in my pants!

Posted by: Muldoon, a solid man at February 03, 2015 02:58 PM (NeFrd)

519 anti-vax idiots on the Right than I realized. I knew about the fringe Christian sects that fear all modern medicine. I forgot about/overestimated the intellect of the Paulians.
Posted by: Costanza Defense at February 03, 2015 02:50 PM (ZPrif)

I've seen a lot of people that are against mandatory forced vaccinations, but I haven't seen any on the right (including Paulians) who are advocating NOT vaccinating their kids.

I think thats mostly confined to the all organic whole foods shopping obama voting upper class white women.

For some of us, this is more of a liberty issue than a medical issue.

I'm against mandatory vaccination, but I'm 100% for vaccinating your kids. I think its irresponsible not to.

Posted by: mynewhandle at February 03, 2015 02:58 PM (AkOaV)

520 >>Basically, this is all just governing by risk aversion.

You could probably make that statement about any government law or regulation. The argument is always over the amount of regulation versus the amount of freedom.

Do we let kids drive when they can reach the pedals or do we mandate a somewhat arbitrary date when we as a society think they are mature enough to not hurt themselves or more importantly not take out someone else?

Posted by: JackStraw at February 03, 2015 02:58 PM (g1DWB)

521 Go ahead and laugh at my diploma in super science. I can print up more and be even more accredited and smarter than you!!!

Posted by: CMan at February 03, 2015 02:59 PM (4QKpw)

522 Posted by: SH at February 03, 2015 02:52 PM (gmeXX)

If we reworked the laws such that there was more "due process" (honestly there's already a shit ton of it but more is better) they'd be totes fine right?
Posted by: tsrblke, PhD(c) and exhausted! new father! at February 03, 2015 02:54 PM (HDwDg)

----

I'm not sure I follow. My point was that being against forced injections does not logically lead to being against quarantines. I believe the state has the power to do forced injections, but it is a very limited power - and one that should be used rarely and wisely. And yes, I think having more due process before a state injects you is probably a good thing. But that in and of itself doesn't make it right.

Posted by: SH at February 03, 2015 02:59 PM (gmeXX)

523 HepB

That's the ONLY one I'm flat out refusing until the kid is older.

The rest he's getting. Because, better he has them. Just don't think it's a good idea to force people, at gunpoint to do this, because it won't stop here.

Posted by: GMan at February 03, 2015 02:59 PM (sxq57)

524 I wonder if the JEF is vaccinated?

Only against American patriotism.

Posted by: Blanco Basura at February 03, 2015 02:59 PM (UVfht)

525 Why? The studies on immunity have already been done, and any data gathered from such a small study would be of little value.

Because FREEEEEEDOM!

Your problem is that you treat all vaccinations as the equivalent of a polio or even measles vaccination.

I most emphatically do not. I myself said "the line was drawn somewhere between Polio and the Flu." I do not at all believe that all vaccinations should be required. I *do* believe that some should be.

GMan seems to be seeing that *no vaccine* should be required for children. As someone whose child might be negatively affected by such choices, I take exception.

Posted by: AllenG (DedicatedTenther) - TrueCon at February 03, 2015 02:59 PM (kff5f)

526 >>>If the GOP can't fight and win that argument, then there is no reason for them to argue anything.
Posted by: SH at February 03, 2015 02:54 PM (gmeXX)>>>

GOP can barely (being generous here) make a coherent argument for a single issue at a time. This shouldn't be it.

Posted by: gm at February 03, 2015 02:59 PM (/kBoL)

527 OT: Jordan says they will execute the woman they were going to exchange "within hours".

Posted by: The Great White Snark at February 03, 2015 03:00 PM (XUKZU)

528 Here are the recommended vaccines for children ages 1-6.

Chicken Pox
Diptheria
HepA
Measles
Mumps
Whooping Cough
Polio
Pnemococcal
Rotavirus
Rubella
Tetanus

I don't see a problem with any of that.

Posted by: Kreplach at February 03, 2015 03:00 PM (DDFkt)

529 >>Does anyone here actually know what vaccines are required?

http://www2a.cdc.gov/nip/schoolsurv/schImmRqmt.asp

Posted by: JackStraw at February 03, 2015 03:00 PM (g1DWB)

530 Measel words.

Posted by: Politician at February 03, 2015 03:00 PM (zSrlo)

531 should be required for children. As someone whose child might be negatively affected by such choices, I take exception.

Ok, but *my* child might also be negatively affected by such choices. I'm still willing to let people make them.

Posted by: GMan at February 03, 2015 03:00 PM (sxq57)

532 I'd have no problem with banning unvaxed kids from school if we didn't charge the parents with a crime or seize their children for not sending their children to school.

Posted by: Malcolm Tent at February 03, 2015 03:00 PM (QPoJb)

533 I think there is actually quite the difference between the anti- vaccination group and the anti-government enforced vaccination group. Or at least there should be. They're definitely two very different views but they seem to travel hand in hand far too much.

And to me the anti-vacc-ers seem to borrow a lot of rhetorical stylings from the holocaust deniers.

Posted by: Buzzion at February 03, 2015 03:00 PM (MuTCb)

534 But whatever. The diploma I've got here doesn't need you to believe it.
Posted by: GMan at February 03, 2015 02:56 PM (sxq57)

Are you having a hard time grasping the concept? Stop invoking an unproven, unprovable credential. For the purposes of argument, 'the diploma you've got there' doesn't exist.

Posted by: troyriser at February 03, 2015 03:00 PM (CAJL/)

535 Carol if you are still here. Fountain Hills, AZ. We plan on moving there someday.

Posted by: jewells45tryingtokeepfromgoingcrazy at February 03, 2015 03:00 PM (l/N7H)

536 "424
So then if your kids vaccination wasn't effective, why the fuck should we allow them into public school?

Posted by: Malcolm Tent at February 03, 2015 02:36 PM (QPoJb)

I'm not sure you can honestly tell if the vaccine was effective for
any given individual until the next major outbreak. The point of the
vaccination is to a) prevent the person in question from catching it but
also to b) prevent a major outbreak which would affect anyone who
either isn't vaccinated or was ineffectively vaccinated.

Posted by: Anderson Cooper's Smoked Sausages at February 03, 2015 02:40 PM (MbqmP)"

I believe that there is a test that will look for antibodies for measles. The test costs money and, like anything else is not 100% accurate. So what sounds like the most effective way to deal with a bunch of serious infectious diseases? 1) Require everybody have their shots up to date before they are allowed to start school. This has the advantage that it was done for nearly a century and worked pretty well. 2) Administer a series of tests on every potential student to test them for antibodies for all the diseases that we are trying to protect against. Hint: This is going to cost a whole lot more.

Posted by: Obnoxious A-Hole at February 03, 2015 03:01 PM (KDbAT)

537 Are you having a hard time grasping the concept? Stop invoking an unproven, unprovable credential. For the purposes of argument, 'the diploma you've got there' doesn't exist.

Ah sorry, I invoked it *once*. You're the idiot that made it an issue. Sorry. I won't mention it again.

Posted by: GMan at February 03, 2015 03:01 PM (sxq57)

538 521 Go ahead and laugh at my diploma in super science. I can print up more and be even more accredited and smarter than you!!!
Posted by: CMan at February 03, 2015 02:59 PM (4QKpw)

I've thrown away more diplomas than you could ever earn.
Posted by: Mr. Spew Spew

Posted by: Misanthropic Humanitrian at February 03, 2015 03:01 PM (/GgDU)

539 I have an autistic son. He had his vaccinations. Is there a connection? I doubt it. As a kid I had all the vaccinations and recently at age 66 had them again because I work for a hospital. This measles outbreak comes directly from recent illegal aliens. It is not because some parents chose not to vaccinate their children. I am willing to bet autism was around long before we had vaccinations.

Posted by: Eromero at February 03, 2015 03:02 PM (go5uR)

540 The government should have some say in vaccines for infectious disease since it does effect the General Welfare but I also agree that people should be able to choose if they want to be vaccinated.

Only way solve that is to allow people not to be vaccinated and not allow them access to government controlled property.

Posted by: Bob Belcher at February 03, 2015 03:02 PM (Xrson)

541 "I'm against mandatory vaccination, but I'm 100% for vaccinating your kids. I think its irresponsible not to."

That's exactly the right way to say it.

The fact that something is a damned good idea doesn't always justify criminalizing the bad alternative choices. Children Eleventy!!!! is a common stalking horse for that fallacy.

Posted by: SocietyIs2Blame at February 03, 2015 03:02 PM (QKIQb)

542 If the GOP can't fight and win that argument, then there is no reason for them to argue anything.
Posted by: SH at February 03, 2015 02:54 PM (gmeXX)>>>

GOP can barely (being generous here) make a coherent argument for a single issue at a time. This shouldn't be it.

----

I was being somewhat facetious because we all agree that the GOP is basically useless at time. But the GOP is stronger now than ever before. Clearly they have made some arguments to the public that the public has bought.

Why shouldn't they argue on this? This is a case where we are right and the rich liberal left is wrong.

Posted by: SH at February 03, 2015 03:02 PM (gmeXX)

543 In case you doubted me @518-

https://tinyurl.com/nnfphuh

Posted by: Muldoon, a solid man at February 03, 2015 03:03 PM (NeFrd)

544 527 OT: Jordan says they will execute the woman they were going to exchange "within hours".
Posted by: The Great White Snark at February 03, 2015 03:00 PM

Sands.......Hour glass......Days of our lives.

Posted by: Misanthropic Humanitrian at February 03, 2015 03:03 PM (/GgDU)

545 Ah sorry, I invoked it *once*. You're the idiot that made it an issue. Sorry. I won't mention it again.
Posted by: GMan at February 03, 2015 03:01 PM (sxq57)

No, you're the asshole that made it an issue when you tried to employ a fallacy--a false appeal to authority--in argument. I'm sure you pull that shit a lot, lightweight.

Posted by: troyriser at February 03, 2015 03:03 PM (CAJL/)

546 I am willing to bet autism was around long before we had vaccinations.

I have to wonder how many "Villiage Idiots" were autistic people.

Posted by: Blanco Basura at February 03, 2015 03:04 PM (UVfht)

547 "532
I'd have no problem with banning unvaxed kids from school if we didn't
charge the parents with a crime or seize their children for not sending
their children to school.

Posted by: Malcolm Tent at February 03, 2015 03:00 PM (QPoJb)"

They can home school their kids or send them to a special private school for children who's parents are shit heads.

Posted by: Obnoxious A-Hole at February 03, 2015 03:04 PM (KDbAT)

548 Ahem.

GO LISTEN TO BC AND I'S PODCAST! NOWNOWNOWNOWNOW.

Ahem.

Link in nic.

Posted by: alexthechick - Go. Listen. You know you want to. at February 03, 2015 03:04 PM (mf5HN)

549 Everyone has had vaccinations. Some people have autism. The people that have autism has had vaccinations. Ergo...

Posted by: Logic Puzzle at February 03, 2015 03:05 PM (hHFOx)

550 Posted by: troyriser at February 03, 2015 03:03 PM (CAJL/)
So, responding to someone saying "you don't know what you're talking about." With "Yes I do, I actually have background in that." is *me* making it an issue?

Got it. Thanks for the clarification. You unreasonable pile of doucherags.

Posted by: GMan at February 03, 2015 03:06 PM (sxq57)

551 544 527 OT: Jordan says they will execute the woman they were going to exchange "within hours".
Posted by: The Great White Snark at February 03, 2015 03:00 PM

Sands.......Hour glass......Days of our lives.

They should use the same "method" of execution...

Posted by: hello, it's Me Donna ....again at February 03, 2015 03:06 PM (Bn6aD)

552
Whats this?

Belichick caught in cntroversial kiss with daughter?

I hate what we've become.

Posted by: please dont squeeze the soothie at February 03, 2015 03:06 PM (FiWED)

553 Autistic has been around forever. It's the new label.

Posted by: NCKate at February 03, 2015 03:06 PM (EBMYe)

554 GO LISTEN TO BC AND I'S PODCAST! NOWNOWNOWNOWNOW.

Are you from the govt? Sounds like it. ~runs~

Posted by: wrg500 at February 03, 2015 03:06 PM (C278+)

555 Everyone has had vaccinations. Some people have autism. The people that have autism has had vaccinations. Ergo...

Posted by: Logic Puzzle

You're full of shit?

Posted by: Blanco Basura at February 03, 2015 03:06 PM (UVfht)

556 Maybe I'm in the minority here, but I'm glad this conversation is being had. I do not think it bad for society to question the wisdom of anything that is mandatory by the government, even if society comes to the conclusion that it may be entirely necessary (i.e., the polio vaccine).

Posted by: SH at February 03, 2015 03:07 PM (gmeXX)

557
When we first moved to New York, my son had to get the chickenpox vaccine to enroll in school as California had not mandated it yet. I know that different states have different requirements for school enrollment.
That however doesn't cover airports, grocery stores, amusement parks, playgrounds etc. where there are mass people/kids.

Posted by: Cheri at February 03, 2015 03:07 PM (oiNtH)

558
FUCKING RINO!!!

And at last the thread is wun.

Posted by: Bandersnatch at February 03, 2015 03:07 PM (JtwS4)

559 There are some folks on the right that are anti-vaccine, the same guys that reject medicine for all those 'holistic' medicine ads on talk radio. Mostly its just people who kneejerk reject anything the left promotes and a suspicion that science is anti-religion, which is ridiculous.

I understand the fears of parents not wanting their kids exposed to sick children. I get worrying about measels and polio and worse.

(As an aside, the looks of horror and disbelief on the faces of my mom and her sisters when I brought up the whole anti-vaccination thing were heartbreaking and stunning. They lived through Polio. My dad lost a brother to it.)

My problem is I don't trust the modern federal government - or even local government - with the power to tell me what I must do medically with my family or myself. This isn't 1950, its 2015 when governments are banning excess salt in food, taking kids away for being "too fat" and requiring us to buy health insurance. Everyone should vaccinate their kids. Everyone should distrust the government. Both of those things are something we all should agree on.

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at February 03, 2015 03:07 PM (39g3+)

560 ace, new thread please. This one is getting mean.

Posted by: mynewhandle at February 03, 2015 03:08 PM (AkOaV)

561 Frankly, I'm not as concerned with the slight percentage chance that my child might contract measles due to the combination of unvaxed child and my child's failed inoculation as I am the nearly 100% chance that they will contract the liberal ideology of school teachers inside the school system.

If there were a vaccine against liberalism, I'd be all for mandatory vaccination as it is an as yet eradicated disease.

Posted by: Malcolm Tent at February 03, 2015 03:08 PM (QPoJb)

562 his isn't 1950, its 2015 when governments are banning excess salt in food, taking kids away for being "too fat" and requiring us to buy health insurance. Everyone should vaccinate their kids. Everyone should distrust the government. Both of those things are something we all should agree on.

And I'm going to make your life miserable by saying "Thank you, Yes. this."

Posted by: GMan at February 03, 2015 03:08 PM (sxq57)

563 Everyone should distrust the government.

----

Very, very true.

Posted by: SH at February 03, 2015 03:08 PM (gmeXX)

564 560 ace, new thread please. This one is getting mean.
Posted by: mynewhandle at February 03, 2015 03:08 PM

Just got here and it's a battleground..

Posted by: hello, it's Me Donna ....again at February 03, 2015 03:08 PM (Bn6aD)

565 Posted by: SocietyIs2Blame at February 03, 2015 02:56 PM (QKIQb)

No, I was pointing out the absurdity of your "argument."

Of course the number of people killed by measles is next to nothing- we've been vaccinating against it for 52 years. We virtually eradicated it -to the point we can even be having this argument- by requiring children be vaccinated for the disease (virtually every state requires it for public school, and virtually every private school uses the state requirements).

However, if you look at 1900 numbers, you get a much better sense of what we're talking about.

The reason "for the children" is such a powerful argument for the Left is that children really are one of the reasons for the existence of civilization and government in the first place- well, their protection and upbringing. We do a very great deal "for the children."

Like I said above- those of us on the pro-mandate side are actually mostly being more reasonable than we have to be. Disease knows no borders- so *if* the Federal Government had an argument to take over a state function, disease (and therefore vaccinations) would be a prime place. Nevertheless, we all know that giving the National government this power would be too dangerous- and so have been saying "it should be up to the states."

Then, having made that argument, we go on to say (either outright, or obliquely) that not all vaccines should be required. Basically, those that have a high likelihood of killing/maiming my child. I can deal with your kid giving mine the flu (though that's dangerous for kids, too). Polio? Measles? Whooping cough? No.

Yet your line is: "The government can't be trusted with anything! We certainly can't let them tell us we have to have our kids vaccinated!"

My position certainly could be as absolutist as yours. I have admitted that a reality outside theory exists. You and those holding your position have not.

Posted by: AllenG (DedicatedTenther) - TrueCon at February 03, 2015 03:08 PM (kff5f)

566 Everyone has had vaccinations. Some people have autism. The people that have autism has had vaccinations. Ergo...

ergo you have a flawed premise, and hence are begging the question.

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at February 03, 2015 03:09 PM (39g3+)

567 They should use the same "method" of execution...

Except they should be doused in pig fat before being set aflame.

We will never defeat these barbarians if we don't use what they fear.

They do not fear death. They call that "martyrdom."

But not getting their 72 virgins in paradise...THAT they fear.

But the PC-obsessed west is too chickenshit to do what needs to be done.

Posted by: Citizen X at February 03, 2015 03:09 PM (7ObY1)

568 "And to me the anti-vacc-ers seem to borrow a lot of rhetorical stylings from the holocaust deniers.

Posted by: Buzzion at February 03, 2015 03:00 PM (MuTCb)"

There are only so many ways to argue stupid crap that has no basis in reality. I would be surprised if there was no overlap.

Posted by: Obnoxious A-Hole at February 03, 2015 03:09 PM (KDbAT)

569 Keep arguing with me and I will print out so many diplomas that I will make the Earth undergo gravitational collapse! Science, bitches!

Posted by: CMan at February 03, 2015 03:09 PM (4QKpw)

570 Maybe I'm in the minority here, but I'm glad this conversation is being had. I do not think it bad for society to question the wisdom of anything that is mandatory by the government, even if society comes to the conclusion that it may be entirely necessary (i.e., the polio vaccine).

Word. I would say that in the fight between Big Gov't and Anti-Vaxxers I was rooting for casualties, but it seems all too clear casualties we shall have--innocents the lot of 'em.

A plague, as it were, on both their houses. Sadly, to be followed by the rest of our houses.

Posted by: Brother Cavil, Unrepresented at February 03, 2015 03:10 PM (DT3rQ)

571 I could have had some vaccinations or got autism, but I didn't.

Posted by: Nationwide Kid at February 03, 2015 03:10 PM (hHFOx)

572 There are only so many ways to argue stupid crap that has no basis in reality. I would be surprised if there was no overlap.

This bears repeating.

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at February 03, 2015 03:10 PM (39g3+)

573 Help Ace! We've fallen and we can't get up...

Posted by: hello, it's Me Donna ....again at February 03, 2015 03:10 PM (Bn6aD)

574 >>>532 I'd have no problem with banning unvaxed kids from school if we didn't charge the parents with a crime or seize their children for not sending their children to school.
Posted by: Malcolm Tent at February 03, 2015 03:00 PM (QPoJb)>>>

How about we just get rid of public schools, and teacher's unions, the department of education, and let the states give out vouchers instead?

Posted by: gm at February 03, 2015 03:10 PM (/kBoL)

575 Posted by: AllenG (DedicatedTenther) - TrueCon at February 03, 2015 03:08 PM (kff5f)

Allen,

Measles has historically not been a very deadly disease. Kids living in horrid, malnurished conditions in orphanages would seem to account for the spike in the early 1900s... Interesting chart here:

http://pjmedia.com/lifestyle/2015/02/03/confessions-of-a-conservative-vaccine-truther/

Posted by: mynewhandle at February 03, 2015 03:10 PM (AkOaV)

576 ergo you have a flawed premise, and hence are begging the question.
Posted by: Christopher Taylor at February 03, 2015 03:09 PM (39g3+

To longbow or to crossbow that is the question?

Posted by: Misanthropic Humanitrian at February 03, 2015 03:11 PM (/GgDU)

577
553 Autistic has been around forever. It's the new label.
Posted by: NCKate at February 03, 2015 03:06 PM (EBMYe)

What I've always found interesting is the commercials for it. It used to be something like 1 in 200 some kids born with autism less than 10 years ago when they started the "autism speaks" ad campaign. Now I think the most recent commercial used a number of 1 in 68 or something along that. The previous number was 1 in 88.

Posted by: Buzzion at February 03, 2015 03:11 PM (MuTCb)

578 A plague, as it were, on both their houses.

***

I think there's a vaccine for that.

Posted by: Muldoon, a solid man at February 03, 2015 03:11 PM (NeFrd)

579 Got it. Thanks for the clarification. You unreasonable pile of doucherags.
Posted by: GMan at February 03, 2015 03:06 PM (sxq57)

You're welcome. And 'unreasonable' is not the word you use against someone who (correctly) calls you out on a fallacy in reasoned argument.

Like I said: lightweight.

Posted by: troyriser at February 03, 2015 03:11 PM (CAJL/)

580 Measles has historically not been a very deadly disease.

Right, but my point about side effects of vaccines also stands on this. It may be a statistical blip, but when the disease does turn deadly for that one or two kids, it's not a blip.

Posted by: GMan at February 03, 2015 03:12 PM (sxq57)

581 unvaxed kids

I prefer my kids waxed.

Oh, unVAXed.

Never mind.

Posted by: Noted Pederast Hairy Reid at February 03, 2015 03:12 PM (7ObY1)

582 >>This isn't 1950, its 2015 when governments are banning excess salt in food, taking kids away for being "too fat" and requiring us to buy health insurance. Everyone should vaccinate their kids. Everyone should distrust the government. Both of those things are something we all should agree on.

Don't disagree. But I would point out the vast majority of vaccines people are now arguing about were first implemented in the 50's and 60's and it was the people who were calling out for them.

I don't trust government but I also don't trust wildly anti-science goobers who think that everything ever done by government is evil.

Posted by: JackStraw at February 03, 2015 03:12 PM (g1DWB)

583 574>>>How about we just get rid of public schools, and teacher's unions, the department of education, and let the states give out vouchers instead?

Now we are beginning to make progress in this discussion.

Posted by: Malcolm Tent at February 03, 2015 03:12 PM (QPoJb)

584 I saw Martial Law open up for Marshall Crenshaw at Fillmore East back in 1981.

Posted by: Mega at February 03, 2015 03:12 PM (hHFOx)

585 "Here are the recommended vaccines for children ages 1-6....I don't see a problem with any of that."

I don't either. But that's not enough to justify society-wide mandatory medical procedures. If we put the speed limit back to 55, less people would die in auto accidents. As JackStraw said above, there's almost always an arbitrary element in these decisions. What's the real difference between a 17 and 18 year old re: statutory rape, voting rights, etc ? I'm saying we should be very careful about the government telling parents how to care for their children. It intrudes on basic parental prerogatives, religion, privacy and other important rights.

If we're choosing between pater familias and lex familias, I'll take the former. "It takes a village" is a collectivist concept and you court that thinking every time you infringe on parental rights. Obviously we're going to do so in some situations, but they should be among the strictest limits of limited government.

Posted by: SocietyIs2Blame at February 03, 2015 03:12 PM (QKIQb)

586 I am willing to bet autism was around long before we had vaccinations.

Indeed. That quiet, shy boy (most often) who sat in the back of class and never really looked anyone in the eye? Better than even to beclassed as Asperger's Syndrome today. Flat-out autistic kids used to be institutionalized - which is why parents worked their tails off against such as diagnosis.

Oh, he's just shy. It's a phase. He'll grow out of it. Just "socially awkward". Etc.

I went to college (engineering) with lots of these folks, and (honestly) and probably one myself.

Posted by: DocJ at February 03, 2015 03:13 PM (zrsn3)

587 I saw Unreasonable Pile of Doucherags open for REM, Athens, GA 1989

Posted by: Noted Pederast Hairy Reid at February 03, 2015 03:13 PM (7ObY1)

588 Ok, but *my* child might also be negatively affected by such choices. I'm still willing to let people make them.

Hrm.

Okay, let's test this whole "choices" thing.

What do you think of school zones?
Stopping for school buses?
Food regulation (generally- not any specific overreach)?

Posted by: AllenG (DedicatedTenther) - TrueCon at February 03, 2015 03:13 PM (kff5f)

589
You're welcome. And 'unreasonable' is not the word you use against someone who (correctly) calls you out on a fallacy in reasoned argument.

Oh, we're having a reasoned argument? I thought this was a "burn the witches" meeting. There's very little "reason" going on here.

You're still a pile of doucherags.

Posted by: GMan at February 03, 2015 03:13 PM (sxq57)

590 Jump on board the anti-vaccine train! Join the 9/11 Truthers and Trilateralists!

This is science that is well established by data: universal vaccination against virulent infections like measles works; partial, even big majority, vaccination does not. It's the herd, folks. We have the actual experience to verify this in various places around the world, especially our own country.

When you stupid assholes manage to bring back polio, drink a toast, okay, Zippy?

Posted by: Adjoran at February 03, 2015 03:13 PM (QIQ6j)

591 We never had mandatory vaccines in the USA, did we? I thought we had you can choose not to vaccinate your kids, and we (as a society) can choose to bar them from school, after education, organized sports and other programs.

Posted by: Evi. L. Bloggerlady at February 03, 2015 03:13 PM (4kTo2)

592 Pretty sure it's the chemtrails!

Posted by: Paranoid Anti-vaxxer at February 03, 2015 03:14 PM (ZPrif)

593
To longbow or to crossbow that is the question?

Maryanne.

And modified hardwood.

Posted by: Bandersnatch at February 03, 2015 03:14 PM (JtwS4)

594 I see a lot of people here had their HPV vaccinations .

Posted by: Michelle Bachmann at February 03, 2015 03:14 PM (Xrson)

595 >>>They can home school their kids or send them to a special private school for children who's parents are shit heads.
Posted by: Obnoxious A-Hole at February 03, 2015 03:04 PM (KDbAT)>>>

Any parent who sends his kids to private school, for whatever reason, is less of a shit head than someone who sends his kids to public school.

Posted by: gm at February 03, 2015 03:14 PM (/kBoL)

596 2,594th look at Palin?

Posted by: Navycopjoe at February 03, 2015 03:14 PM (QY6Dj)

597 552
Whats this?

Belichick caught in cntroversial kiss with daughter?

I hate what we've become.

Posted by: please dont squeeze the soothie at February 03, 2015 03:06 PM (FiWED)

I thought you were joking around. Then I looked it up. Jesus. The angle of the picture makes it look like he's grabbing some titty to boot.

Posted by: Insomniac at February 03, 2015 03:14 PM (2Ojst)

598 571 I could have had some vaccinations or got autism, but I didn't.

I thought you were dead, kid.

Posted by: Citizen X at February 03, 2015 03:14 PM (7ObY1)

599 Right, but my point about side effects of vaccines also stands on this. It may be a statistical blip, but when the disease does turn deadly for that one or two kids, it's not a blip.
Posted by: GMan at February 03, 2015 03:12 PM (sxq57)

Sure.

I'm not pro mandated injections.

I'm just trying to add some perspective. There are side effects for some who get the vaccination, and measles, while not particularly deadly, does seem unpleasant.

I'd still get my kids vaccinated 10 of 10 times. But I'm not willing to then point a gun at my neighbors head and force him to vaccinate his offspring.

Posted by: mynewhandle at February 03, 2015 03:14 PM (AkOaV)

600 "304 I heard Howie interview & Paul didn't answer many questions. Howie opened next day show saying it is all taped."

If it's taped, how did they work it so that Paul took questions from callers? Was it rigged? Like the Moon Landing? Like 9-11? Derp.

Posted by: Sam from Providence, Unemployed Smartypants at February 03, 2015 03:15 PM (7u7u7)

601 Jewells45,
I'm still here. I was eating cookies I warmed up in microwave & had chocolate all over my hands.
Thank you.

Posted by: Carol at February 03, 2015 03:15 PM (sj3Ax)

602 >>Now we are beginning to make progress in this discussion.

Not really. Try and find a private school that doesn't require vaccinations. Not a big selection.

Posted by: JackStraw at February 03, 2015 03:15 PM (g1DWB)

603 I will say that all of this is reminding me that I have no idea when I had my last tetanus booster.

Posted by: alexthechick - Go. Listen. You know you want to. at February 03, 2015 03:15 PM (mf5HN)

604 Maryanne.

And modified hardwood.

Mary Anne always modified my hardwood.

But Ginger was no slouch.

Posted by: Blanco Basura at February 03, 2015 03:15 PM (UVfht)

605 You're still a pile of doucherags.
Posted by: GMan at February 03, 2015 03:13 PM (sxq57)

...Said Internet Tough Guy Tapping Angrily At His Mighty Keyboard.

Posted by: troyriser at February 03, 2015 03:15 PM (CAJL/)

606 "My position certainly could be as absolutist as yours. I have admitted
that a reality outside theory exists. You and those holding your
position have not."

You win the internet for the day, Allen.

Too many straw men, too much point scoring. I've said my piece on this. I'll stand on what I said. Take your ball and go home.

Posted by: SocietyIs2Blame at February 03, 2015 03:15 PM (QKIQb)

607 Maryanne.

And modified hardwood.
Posted by: Bandersnatch at February 03, 2015 03:14 PM (JtwS4)

Landing strip.

Posted by: Insomniac at February 03, 2015 03:15 PM (2Ojst)

608 I'm a little weary of the different factions of non-rino GOP conservatives disqualifying everyone else's niche favorite candidate because this person or that person has this one big major flaw, or they were an apostate on that one other issue, or they voted the wrong way that once. The only person any of us ought to be criticizing is folks like Romney, Jeb and McCain. Pretty much anyone else I would be happy with. We have a deep bench, with really solid people who have not been afraid to take a stand on principle. Cruz, Paul, Walker, Rubio (?)... I have my favorite, but any one of those guys (except maybe Rubio) is going to be an improvement over what we have, because they are actual leaders.

Posted by: Sambo at February 03, 2015 03:15 PM (td/y6)

609 The only "vaccine" my kids need is doucherags. That, and cleansing fire due to them being infested with disease.

Posted by: CMan at February 03, 2015 03:15 PM (4QKpw)

610 >> 2,594th look at Palin?

If she runs for the nomination from The Wife Swapping Party she might have a chance.

Posted by: Garrett at February 03, 2015 03:16 PM (Hv3LR)

611 But Ginger was no slouch.

I'm in the pro-Ginger camp, with a side of Maryanne.

Posted by: wrg500 at February 03, 2015 03:16 PM (C278+)

612 Shep describing the burning video. He's actually doing a good job. He's not leaving out any details.

Posted by: Soona at February 03, 2015 03:16 PM (/HX7u)

613 Maryanne.

And modified hardwood.
Posted by: Bandersnatch at February 03, 2015 03:14 PM (JtwS4)

Ohhhh so close. The proper Horde answer is Ginger and Mary Ann.

Modified hardwood is acceptable. Just no topiary.

Posted by: alexthechick - Go. Listen. You know you want to. at February 03, 2015 03:17 PM (mf5HN)

614 Posted by: mynewhandle at February 03, 2015 03:10 PM (AkOaV)

Measles was chosen by someone else as the disease to discuss.

My preference was Polio- which had a very high incidence of fatality or crippling after effects.

I have specifically been trying to keep my arguments as generic as possible because I know I don't know squat about the specifics of the diseases. But I do know that they were killing/maiming swaths of children before we had virtually eradicated them.

We could say "Disease X" for all I care. My arguments would not change.

Posted by: AllenG (DedicatedTenther) - TrueCon at February 03, 2015 03:17 PM (kff5f)

615 What do you think of school zones?
Stopping for school buses?
Food regulation (generally- not any specific overreach)?

School zone (you mean for speed)? Not a huge fan.

Stopping for school buses. Oncoming, or behind, because oncoming, not a huge fan, but understand it, but stopping when your behind just makes sense, as you or the kids can't see around the bus.

food regulation, again not a giant fan. I mean, OK, yes, you want to keep people from poisoning each other here, but you also don't want to be saying you can't cook with that type of oil.

Posted by: GMan at February 03, 2015 03:17 PM (sxq57)

616 Posted by: Sambo at February 03, 2015 03:15 PM (td/y6)

Your nic is RAAAAACIST!!!! and therefore everything you just said is invalid. And racist too.

Posted by: Insomniac at February 03, 2015 03:17 PM (2Ojst)

617 Belichick checking the pressure in his daughter's breast?

Posted by: Occupy Deflate Halliburton at February 03, 2015 03:17 PM (7u7u7)

618 I personally believe that as a society, overall, in the long run, and for a culture best able to provide the most opportunities, advancement, and well being for all its people, the more freedom we have the better. And in converse, the less government power over our lives, the better.

I believe that there's always a price to pay for liberty. Sometimes that price is high: blood spilled to fight tyranny. Sometimes that price is more modest: a hideous house next door, a sick neighbor, or a bonfire on the beach you wish didn't blow smoke in your face.

But there's always a price. As part of the social contract we willingly as a people give up small portions of non-critical expression of liberty for a gain overall. In times past, that included children being vaccinated to get into schools. And that was a price worth paying, because the loss of liberty was small and the gain considered great.

The problem is, things have changed. What was once an acceptable small loss of liberty has become the camel's nose under the tent. There are no small losses any more, with modern government. If you give them the smallest next step, then they'll take giant leaps next. For your good, for the children. And that means, for me, we've crossed the line to where we cannot give any more up, ever, no matter what the cost.

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at February 03, 2015 03:17 PM (39g3+)

619 So the Ones who will be getting the "diseases" are the Un-vaccinated?So if measles was basically "eliminated" where is the re-occurrence coming from?It's not going to be affecting the vaccinated ones, at least about 95% of them so what's the problem ? The responsibility rests on those Parents who chose not to get vaccinations and their Children will pay the price. But it is their choice...

Posted by: hello, it's Me Donna ....again at February 03, 2015 03:18 PM (Bn6aD)

620 610. If she runs for the nomination from The Wife Swapping Party she might have a chance

Toss in a trampoline and I'll vote for her
With both hands......oh wait

Posted by: Navycopjoe at February 03, 2015 03:18 PM (QY6Dj)

621 I'm a little weary of the different factions of non-rino GOP conservatives disqualifying everyone else's niche favorite candidate because this person or that person has this one big major flaw, or they were an apostate on that one other issue, or they voted the wrong way that once. The only person any of us ought to be criticizing is folks like Romney, Jeb and McCain. Pretty much anyone else I would be happy with. We have a deep bench, with really solid people who have not been afraid to take a stand on principle. Cruz, Paul, Walker, Rubio (?)... I have my favorite, but any one of those guys (except maybe Rubio) is going to be an improvement over what we have, because they are actual leaders.
Posted by: Sambo at February 03, 2015 03:15 PM (td/y6)

----

Well said, but your view is colored by the fact that you are on a political board with people who are more obsessed (and probably in an unhealthy way) with politics.

I'm generally of your opinion. No candidate is perfect, but this slate is a lot better than last time. At least conservatism will have its voice. If we lose, we lose. But it won't be for lack of a voice.

Posted by: SH at February 03, 2015 03:18 PM (gmeXX)

622 ...Said Internet Tough Guy Tapping Angrily At His Mighty Keyboard.

I'd say the exact same thing to your face, if you were here, tough guy.

Posted by: GMan at February 03, 2015 03:18 PM (sxq57)

623 Ricardo,
I sent you an email last week with 2 pics of last week's mountains of snow.
Do you still have my email?

Posted by: Carol at February 03, 2015 03:18 PM (sj3Ax)

624 So. What you're saying is that when I'm penned in, there will be a flamethrower with me?

I'm not falling for that trick again, my shins are still peeling.

If we'd have set fire to that Nurse in Maine when she 1st broke quarantine she'd be out by now.

Posted by: DaveA at February 03, 2015 03:19 PM (DL2i+)

625 >>>Not really. Try and find a private school that doesn't require vaccinations. Not a big selection.

Posted by: JackStraw at February 03, 2015 03:15 PM (g1DWB)>>>

I have zero problem with a private institution requiring vaccination for participation.

Posted by: gm at February 03, 2015 03:19 PM (/kBoL)

626 Modified hardwood is acceptable. Just no topiary.
Posted by: alexthechick - Go. Listen. You know you want to. at February 03, 2015 03:17 PM (mf5HN)

If it's green and leafy down there I'm running like hell, no matter what shape it is.

Posted by: Insomniac at February 03, 2015 03:19 PM (2Ojst)

627 We never had mandatory vaccines in the USA, did we?

I'm pretty sure every state mandates some vaccines for your children to go to public school, and virtually every private school uses their state's requirements as well.

Posted by: AllenG (DedicatedTenther) - TrueCon at February 03, 2015 03:19 PM (kff5f)

628
The solution to this problem is a simple public health education campaign. The laws were working fine before and they'll work fine again. We just need to get the word out that Jenny McCarthy is an idiot, the autism link thing was a fraud, and that measles/mumps/rubella/whopping cough/etc are deadly diseases.

All that money spent telling everybody cigarettes are bad? Which we all already know? Funnel a little bit of it to this campaign and add some generous 'get your kids vaccinated idiot' shaming to it and problem solved.

Posted by: Lea at February 03, 2015 03:19 PM (lIU4e)

629 Oh, good heavens, can we ease up on the pissing matches? Please?

Posted by: Bob's House of Flannel Shirts and Wallet Chains at February 03, 2015 03:19 PM (vgIRn)

630 I once got a ticket for going 30 MPH in a "school zone."

At 6:10 am in the morning. During a huge snowstorm.

The "school" is a tiny Catholic school about the size of a small house. That opens for their dozen students at 8:00 am.

I mean, I'm all for protecting the kiddies, but really?

Nothing more than a money-making scheme.

Posted by: Citizen X at February 03, 2015 03:19 PM (7ObY1)

631 Stopping for school buses. Oncoming, or behind,
because oncoming, not a huge fan, but understand it, but stopping when
your behind just makes sense, as you or the kids can't see around the
bus.

food regulation, again not a giant fan. I mean, OK, yes, you want
to keep people from poisoning each other here, but you also don't want
to be saying you can't cook with that type of oil.

Posted by: GMan

So, basically, yes for the common good, but with common sense limitation?

The deuce you say!

Posted by: Moderate Salami at February 03, 2015 03:20 PM (/Ho8c)

632 Posted by: Insomniac at February 03, 2015 03:17 PM (2Ojst)

Well, durn.

Posted by: Sambo at February 03, 2015 03:20 PM (td/y6)

633 This is a response to a comment made by somebody on a thread here (I think) about six months ago: FUCK YOU.

Posted by: Coma Guy at February 03, 2015 03:20 PM (7u7u7)

634 I liked Seattle's gutsy call to throw the ball.

Posted by: Luap Dnar at February 03, 2015 03:20 PM (yn6XZ)

635 The responsibility rests on those Parents who chose not to get vaccinations and their Children will pay the price. But it is their choice...

---
You don't get all your vaccines the moment you are born.
Children of responsible parents still have to wait months and years (depending on vaccination schedul) to get their vaccinations -- during which time they are vulnerable. This is even more of an issue for kids who have some serious childhood disease or illness.

Posted by: Costanza Defense at February 03, 2015 03:20 PM (ZPrif)

636

Ohhhh so close. The proper Horde answer is Ginger and Mary Ann.

*scribbles furiously*

BRB

Posted by: Bandersnatch at February 03, 2015 03:20 PM (JtwS4)

637 For the record, my child received MMR.

I just don't believe I an entitled to make everyone else vaccinate their child, not quote scripture, not smoke, or other "my rights trump yours" issues.

Posted by: Malcolm Tent at February 03, 2015 03:20 PM (QPoJb)

638 No, the swine flu vaccine shouldn't have been made mandatory.

Posted by: x at February 03, 2015 03:20 PM (/bvAP)

639 627 We never had mandatory vaccines in the USA, did we?

I'm pretty sure every state mandates some vaccines for your children to go to public school, and virtually every private school uses their state's requirements as well.
Posted by: AllenG (DedicatedTenther) - T

Y es in the 'Old" days We got polio vaccines at School. I remember lining up. We didn't have the other vaccines yet. I know, I'm old...

Posted by: hello, it's Me Donna ....again at February 03, 2015 03:20 PM (Bn6aD)

640 Four trillion dollar budget? Crazy extraterritorial tax proposals? Seizures of 529s and already-twice-taxed estates?

LET'S TALK ABOUT VACCINES YOU GUYS!!!!!!

Posted by: 0302 at February 03, 2015 03:21 PM (N6eLE)

641 Oh, good heavens, can we ease up on the pissing matches? Please?

But I just went out and got more beer!

Posted by: Blanco Basura at February 03, 2015 03:21 PM (UVfht)

642 >>>491 We should inoculate them, and then expose them to live virus just to be sure. For the good of the collective.

Posted by: gm at February 03, 2015 02:49 PM (/kBoL)

Why? The studies on immunity have already been done, and any data gathered from such a small study would be of little value.
Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at February 03, 2015 02:52 PM (Zu3d9)>>>

Not to study them, of course. But to make sure that they're immune. Either they're immune. Or they will be (or Nationwide). Otherwise, they might spread it!

[And, was sarcasm, btw.]

Posted by: gm at February 03, 2015 03:21 PM (/kBoL)

643 We never had mandatory vaccines in the USA, did we?

I'm pretty sure every state mandates some vaccines for your children
to go to public school, and virtually every private school uses their
state's requirements as well.

Posted by: AllenG (DedicatedTenther) - TrueCon

I know I had to get current on boosters before going to college (State university), and this wasn't in the Dark Ages, either.

Posted by: Moderate Salami at February 03, 2015 03:21 PM (/Ho8c)

644
But I just went out and got more beer!
Posted by: Blanco Basura at February 03, 2015 03:21 PM (UVfht)

I only say it because my pisses are more frequent and much less impressive in my dotage.

Posted by: Bob's House of Flannel Shirts and Wallet Chains at February 03, 2015 03:22 PM (vgIRn)

645 So, basically, yes for the common good, but with common sense limitation?

The deuce you say!

The difference here, is that you don't have the federal government coming into my house saying "you can't cook with that food". Or, "you MUST cook with that food." So, you know, still a difference.

Posted by: GMan at February 03, 2015 03:22 PM (sxq57)

646 Posted by: Coma Guy at February 03, 2015 03:20 PM (7u7u7)

You sound more like Period Guy.

Posted by: Mega at February 03, 2015 03:22 PM (hHFOx)

647 " provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare"

Defense and health (welfare) seem to be legitimate concerns of our constitutional government.

Posted by: JohnnyBoy at February 03, 2015 03:22 PM (TPjwz)

648 >>>640 Four trillion dollar budget? Crazy extraterritorial tax proposals? Seizures of 529s and already-twice-taxed estates?

Posted by: 0302 at February 03, 2015 03:21 PM (N6eLE)>>>

Gotta talk to my financial guy to stop contributions to that 529.

Posted by: gm at February 03, 2015 03:22 PM (/kBoL)

649 I'm so tough, I'll fight each and every one of you! Just don't get too close or you may catch one of my myriad diseases.

Posted by: CMan at February 03, 2015 03:22 PM (4QKpw)

650 >>>Defense and health (welfare) seem to be legitimate concerns of our constitutional government.
Posted by: JohnnyBoy at February 03, 2015 03:22 PM (TPjwz)>>>

Fuck yeah! Bring on Obamacare!!!!!

Posted by: gm at February 03, 2015 03:22 PM (/kBoL)

651

If it's green and leafy down there I'm running like hell, no matter what shape it is.

It's only lipstick.

Posted by: The green lipstick YouTube girl at February 03, 2015 03:22 PM (JtwS4)

652 Oh, good heavens, can we ease up on the pissing matches? Please?

At least this is a gun free zone. Someone could get hurt.

Posted by: wrg500 at February 03, 2015 03:22 PM (C278+)

653 >>I have zero problem with a private institution requiring vaccination for participation.

Huh? So then what is your huge problem with vaccinations? It's the exact same vaccine whether it is given for attendance at a public or private school and it is required even in conservative private schools because most people realize vaccines help prevent the spread of deadly, infectious diseases.

Nothing wrong with mistrusting government but when you let your hate of government cloud your judgement on easily provable scientific fact then you might want to check your position.

Posted by: JackStraw at February 03, 2015 03:23 PM (g1DWB)

654 There are children who are allergic to the vaccines. Read The doctors letter in the side bar. Infants who are to young to be vaccinated, and those that are allergic or otherwise medically unable to be vaccinated, rely on "herd immunity"

They rely and those of us who can be vaccinated to be vaccinated

People too young allergic or sick to be vaccinated rely on herd immunity to protect them. That's the cost

A doctor knows this. This is right up there with 911 truthers. It's creepy. The Paul's can go to hell as far as I am concerned

Posted by: ThunderB, Sharia Compliance Officer at February 03, 2015 03:23 PM (zOTsN)

655 This'll probably get willowed, but by the time I came to the age of reason politically, the Birchers had already been excommunicated by Buckley, and that was pre-Internet, so I was never really exposed to reading any of their literature.

I thus wonder how many of the things which are received popular wisdom about the JBS are actually the usual sorts of distortions.

To wit: "Ike is a Commie mole!"

Okay, was that ever official published JBS dogma and policy, or perhaps just the off the cuff opinion of a single prominent Bircher?

Interesting questions arise.

Posted by: torquewrench at February 03, 2015 03:23 PM (noWW6)

656 Ebola nurse looks like Carrot Top.

Posted by: NCKate at February 03, 2015 03:23 PM (EBMYe)

657 I had to pay $200 buckazoids for a meningitis vaccine, so my son could apply to a Texas state college.

Posted by: So Proud at February 03, 2015 03:23 PM (yn6XZ)

658 629 Oh, good heavens, can we ease up on the pissing matches? Please?

Posted by: Bob's House of Flannel Shirts and Wallet Chains at February 03, 2015 03:19 PM (vgIRn)

Dont piss down my back and tell me its raining Bob

Posted by: Misanthropic Humanitrian at February 03, 2015 03:23 PM (/GgDU)

659
LET'S TALK ABOUT VACCINES YOU GUYS!!!!!!

Posted by: 0302

Point taken. But, the other crap is now mundane everyday tyranny. Plus, it's not like we can anything about any of these topics, really. So working on picking a candidate for the GOP that will either a) lose or b) win and then act just like a Democrat is most productive thing we can talk about right now. I guess.

Posted by: Moderate Salami at February 03, 2015 03:23 PM (/Ho8c)

660
"I've heard of many tragic cases of walking, talking, normal children who wound up with profound mental disorders after vaccines," said Paul.
Correlation or causation? Diagnosis of autism and other developmental disorders (hopefully) are made when children are young. Around the time they are vaccinated, around the time they begin to talk, to walk. I bet lots of them eat carrots before they are diagnosed, and drink milk, and breathe air.
The theory that vaccines cause autism has been thoroughly discredited. Shame on him for pandering to the Jenny McCarthy crowd, especially with such weasel-wording.
"I've heard" "many tragic cases" "wound up with". Sure, he could insist that he never said any such thing - that vaccinations cause mental disorders - but anyone so inclined would be sure that he was 100% supporting him.
Formerly okay with Rand Paul, now my disgust runneth over.

Posted by: Teri at February 03, 2015 03:24 PM (Wk1K/)

661 Dont piss down my back and tell me its raining Bob

LOL. Thanks MH for the laugh there.

Posted by: GMan at February 03, 2015 03:24 PM (sxq57)

662 656 Ebola nurse looks like Carrot Top.
Posted by: NCKate at February 03, 2015 03:23 PM (EBMYe)

Pre-steroid, anyway.

Posted by: Insomniac at February 03, 2015 03:24 PM (2Ojst)

663 But I do know that they were killing/maiming swaths of children before we had virtually eradicated them.

We could say "Disease X" for all I care. My arguments would not change.
Posted by: AllenG (DedicatedTenther) - TrueCon at February 03, 2015 03:17 PM (kff5f)

Maybe not "swaths" but yes, polio especially sounds miserable. My grandmother had it as a child, and you never really recover. She had medical problems for the rest of her life.

There is no way I wouldn't vaccinate my kids against polio, even if there is a small chance they could get sick from the vaccine.

All of that being said, my chances (as a vaccinated person) are slim to none of getting polio or measles or most other diseases we vaccinate against, even from a fully symptomatic person. So I think it's a little exaggerated to say "your unvaccinated kid is a health risk to my vaccinated kid."

Yes, if all of the stars align that could be true. But 99.99999% of the time, the unvaccinated kid is not of any danger to your kid. He would have had to have been around someone asymptomatic yet infected recently (so someone not from the US, as we've eradicated these diseases here), and would also have to be asymptomatic yet infected, and your child would have to be in the less than 1% of people who got the vaccine but it didnt work for whatever reason and would have to catch it. Which is easy enough with measles, but polio and others aren't anywhere near as transmittable.

Posted by: mynewhandle at February 03, 2015 03:24 PM (AkOaV)

664 Sorry, but how the hell do you get line breaks in comments?

Posted by: Teri at February 03, 2015 03:25 PM (Wk1K/)

665 Belichick

Posted by: at February 03, 2015 03:25 PM (hHFOx)

666 Damn.

Posted by: Mega at February 03, 2015 03:25 PM (hHFOx)

667 666 666

That just about sums up this thread...

Posted by: hello, it's Me Donna ....again at February 03, 2015 03:25 PM (Bn6aD)

668 If Rand becomes president, it would do the same thing to Ace that the election of Dubya did to Ariana Huffington, at least hyperventilation-wise.
Calm down man, lots of Republicans have been on that kooky radioshow, but Rand gets you way too emotional.

Posted by: Less Hyperventilation Please at February 03, 2015 03:26 PM (2Hi/e)

669 658 629 Oh, good heavens, can we ease up on the pissing matches? Please?

Posted by: Bob's House of Flannel Shirts and Wallet Chains at February 03, 2015 03:19 PM (vgIRn)

Dont piss down my back and tell me its raining Bob
Posted by: Misanthropic Humanitrian at February 03, 2015 03:23 PM (/GgDU)

By his own admission, it's a drizzle at best.

Posted by: Insomniac at February 03, 2015 03:26 PM (2Ojst)

670 664 Sorry, but how the hell do you get line breaks in comments?
Posted by: Teri at February 03, 2015 03:25 PM (Wk1K/)

Platinum.

Membership.

Posted by: Bob's House of Flannel Shirts and Wallet Chains at February 03, 2015 03:26 PM (vgIRn)

671 Posted by: Teri at February 03, 2015 03:24 PM (Wk1K/)

He doesnt say autism, go to CDC's webpage, here are some possible side effects to MMR vaccine (other vaccines have similar and worse side effects). Serious brain damage. Right there on the CDC webpage.

Severe Problems (Very Rare)
Serious allergic reaction (less than 1 out of a million doses)
Several other severe problems have been reported after a child gets MMR vaccine, including:
Deafness
Long-term seizures, coma, or lowered consciousness
Permanent brain damage

Posted by: mynewhandle at February 03, 2015 03:26 PM (AkOaV)

672 Defense and health (welfare) seem to be legitimate concerns of our constitutional government.

Yeah the general welfare clause, used as a blanket to mean "the rest of the constitutional limitations mean nothing."

This is too big a subject to get into in this format, but trust me, the founders didn't mean "stuff congress decides is good for you or bad for you" by that statement. They were pretty clear about it in their writings.

The reason we know that is that they vigorously and repeatedly argued that the federal government had to be very tightly limited to a few specific and well-defined roles and no more. They said all power belonged to the people and very little of it was delegated to the government, as outlined in the constitution.

The "general welfare" clause does not eliminate that.

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at February 03, 2015 03:27 PM (39g3+)

673 Dont piss down my back and tell me its raining Bob

By his own admission, it's a drizzle at best.

Singin' in the rain, just singin' in the... WTF?

Posted by: Blanco Basura at February 03, 2015 03:27 PM (UVfht)

674 Severe Problems (Very Rare)
Serious allergic reaction (less than 1 out of a million doses)
Several other severe problems have been reported after a child gets MMR vaccine, including:
Deafness
Long-term seizures, coma, or lowered consciousness
Permanent brain damage

Have you read the warning on Ibuprofen bottles? Scary stuff..

Posted by: hello, it's Me Donna ....again at February 03, 2015 03:27 PM (Bn6aD)

675 Well said, but your view is colored by the fact that you are on a political board with people who are more obsessed (and probably in an unhealthy way) with politics.

I'm generally of your opinion. No candidate is perfect, but this slate is a lot better than last time. At least conservatism will have its voice. If we lose, we lose. But it won't be for lack of a voice.
Posted by: SH at February 03, 2015 03:18 PM (gmeXX)

Well, thanks.

But there is enough trashing of the conservative candidates in the MSM without conservative political media/blogs piling on. For any of our guys to have a chance we ought not provide the left (which includes the MSM) with ammunition to discredit them down the road. For example, lets say Paul gets the nomination somehow (just go with me for a minute), and he's our guy. Chuck Todd says, "how do you respond to criticism from the Ace 'O Spades blog that you are overly cozy with conspiracy theorists?" Any guy we get nominated is going to have such an uphill climb to get the actual presidency that we need to absolutely offer support.

Posted by: Sambo at February 03, 2015 03:28 PM (td/y6)

676 I'm curious what % of the readership here are anti-vaxxers. I assume it's tiny, but it's possible I'm over-estimating sanity.

Posted by: Costanza Defense at February 03, 2015 03:28 PM (ZPrif)

677 Posted by: GMan at February 03, 2015 03:17 PM (sxq57)

What does "not a huge fan" mean?

Not to give the whole thing away, but those are freedoms you give up "for the children." To protect your own kids (should they walk to school or take the bus) in addition to mine.

And you admit that some food regulation is required- not as much as we have, true (and I agree with you), but more than 0.

If you logically accept that the government can/should regulate those things, then it is not at all logically disqualified that the government can/should mandate vaccinations.

The question is therefore not whether or not government can/should. The questions (more than one) are: what level of government should have that authority? Where is the line drawn as far as which vaccinations are required? What should the consequence of not vaccinating your child be?

My answers are: States and localities, as the levels of government closest to the people, and therefore most accountable, should wield the authority. The line is drawn somewhere between Polio and the flu, and I'm just going to have to trust (because I have no other option) that the line currently drawn is the correct one. The consequence should at least be that your child cannot attend public school. If you're refusing to vaccinate against Polio or a similarly fatal/maiming disease, it might (but would not necessarily) be more.

Posted by: AllenG (DedicatedTenther) - TrueCon at February 03, 2015 03:28 PM (kff5f)

678 I'd say the exact same thing to your face, if you were here, tough guy.
Posted by: GMan at February 03, 2015 03:18 PM (sxq57)

Of course you would, O brave anonymous Internetguy. Of course you would. I'm sure your Masters of Mayhem Man Card is in the same file draweras your much-vaunted Phd in Microbiology.

Posted by: troyriser at February 03, 2015 03:28 PM (CAJL/)

679 Gotta talk to my financial guy to stop contributions to that 529.
Posted by: gm at February 03, 2015 03:22 PM (/kBoL)

@648 it won't happen soon but they're moving the frame of reference. Obama's lame as they get now and he is just throwing totally nuts stuff at the wall to see if any of it sticks.

To the vaccine front, it's not as cut and dried as the shamers would have it. Anyone over 25 or so likely received vaccines with a much higher incidence of negative side effects, particularly fever and seizures from whole-cell pertussis or MMR vaccines. I have a family member who reacted very violently to them in the late 80s. The newer, acellular vaccines have addressed these side effects, but to demean people whose personal memories include some pretty scary shit impacting people they love is very... Vox-like.

But hey, it's not like there's anything else to discuss right now. Slow news decade.

Posted by: 0302 at February 03, 2015 03:28 PM (N6eLE)

680 I have a friend and her daughter are allergic to eggs

Deathly so. So no vaccines. They rely on herd immunity

Posted by: ThunderB, Sharia Compliance Officer at February 03, 2015 03:28 PM (zOTsN)

681 The line for hot meat injections starts here!

Posted by: Anthony Weiner at February 03, 2015 03:29 PM (yn6XZ)

682 >>>Huh? So then what is your huge problem with vaccinations? It's the exact same vaccine whether it is given for attendance at a public or private school and it is required even in conservative private schools because most people realize vaccines help prevent the spread of deadly, infectious diseases.

Nothing wrong with mistrusting government but when you let your hate of government cloud your judgement on easily provable scientific fact then you might want to check your position.
Posted by: JackStraw at February 03, 2015 03:23 PM (g1DWB)>>>

No problem with vaccines, actually. Think that people who don't have their kids get them are imbeciles (though I generally have waited a month or so to get my kids the HepB vax, rather than on day 1). And, don't have a problem with minimalist requirements of vaccinations after thorough and public analyses of costs and benefits. What I have a problem with is reflexively granting authority to government. California, for example, grants authority to a department to add any required vaccinations that they deem suitable to the required list. Call me crazy, but I'm not one to blindly trust the government's ability to critically analyze scientific data without public oversight.

Posted by: gm at February 03, 2015 03:29 PM (/kBoL)

683 Hey, you guys. Wanna see my tits?

Posted by: Jenny McCarthy at February 03, 2015 03:29 PM (/HX7u)

684 Huh? So then what is your huge problem with vaccinations?

I haven't read all the comments, but I don't think anyone here has a problem with vaccinations. They have a problem - just as Ace wrote so ably in the blog post - with government compelling vaccinations.

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at February 03, 2015 03:29 PM (39g3+)

685
The "general welfare" clause does not eliminate that.

Indeed. And they tried to be pretty specific:

"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people"

Posted by: Bandersnatch at February 03, 2015 03:30 PM (JtwS4)

686 Regardless, SCOTUS would rule that forced vaccination is legal because technically it does not deny your child an education, it simply imposes a tax (private school tuition or home-schooling costs) if you don't vaccinate, and is therefor Constitutional.

Posted by: Malcolm Tent at February 03, 2015 03:30 PM (QPoJb)

687 (fill in your anti-establishment candidate) may be correct on what he/she says, but he/she is weird because of (fill in some obscure fact). You should rather vote for the sane establishment GOP candidate even though he/she is wrong in their beliefs.

The message the GOP party sends out to it's blogger buddies is to use that line and keep using it until that particular candidate is no longer a threat.

Posted by: doug at February 03, 2015 03:30 PM (IYEs/)

688 I'm curious what % of the readership here are anti-vaxxers. I assume it's tiny, but it's possible I'm over-estimating sanity.

Pro-vax here. Just hated the little jingle I used to hear on the radio, which returns to me with each of these threads.

"At two, four, and six months
Doctors say it's very wise
At two, four, and six months
To have your children immunized"

Posted by: Blanco Basura at February 03, 2015 03:30 PM (UVfht)

689 Posted by: Anthony Weiner at February 03, 2015 03:29 PM (yn6XZ)

So you need a meat injection? Talk to your friend Hillary.

Posted by: wrg500 at February 03, 2015 03:30 PM (C278+)

690 'So I think it's a little exaggerated to say "your unvaccinated kid is a health risk to my vaccinated kid." '

Kids are dying from whooping cough in areas with law vax rates, when they didn't used to die before. This is happening in Australia. Cause> effect. Problem in US is you're too big, confusion reigns, anyone can say anything.

Posted by: bruce at February 03, 2015 03:31 PM (LaKyO)

691
Singin' in the rain, just singin' in the... WTF?
Posted by: Blanco Basura at February 03, 2015 03:27 PM (UVfht)

Rainy days and Mondays always get me down.......

Posted by: Misanthropic Humanitrian at February 03, 2015 03:31 PM (/GgDU)

692 Have you read the warning on Ibuprofen bottles? Scary stuff..

That it'll make your transvaginal mesh insert collapse?

Posted by: rickb223 at February 03, 2015 03:31 PM (gt0r0)

693 Have you read the warning on Ibuprofen bottles? Scary stuff..
Posted by: hello, it's Me Donna ....again at February 03, 2015 03:27 PM (Bn6aD)

Right, but no one is disowning Rand Paul for saying ibuprofren is dangerous (which it can be).

The "vaccines are perfectly safe" crowd are just as delusional as the "vaccines will poison Jonnies chi" crowd.

There's always a risk involved with injecting a foreign substance in your body. I happen to think it's worth the risk to avoid the terrible diseases we vaccinate against.

Others don't and are willing to risk getting the diseases.

Who are you to take that choice away?

Posted by: mynewhandle at February 03, 2015 03:31 PM (AkOaV)

694 If the neocons/tea party axis continues attacks on Paul, Libertarians will make the GOP pay the price in 2016 and throw the election to the Democrats. Payback will be a bitch.
Posted by: Stop being a sucker at February 03, 2015 03:30 PM (GykF7)

Libertarians do exactly what you describe in every presidential election. Those aren't threats anymore. They're just same-old, same-old. Try something new, Paulbot.

Posted by: troyriser at February 03, 2015 03:31 PM (CAJL/)

695 This should be the GOP's stance on vaccinations going forward.

Thank you Senator Cruz

http://tinyurl.com/km38ndt

Posted by: Kreplach at February 03, 2015 03:31 PM (DDFkt)

696 low vax rates

Posted by: bruce at February 03, 2015 03:32 PM (LaKyO)

697 676 I'm curious what % of the readership here are anti-vaxxers. I assume it's tiny, but it's possible I'm over-estimating sanity.
Posted by: Costanza Defense at February 03, 2015 03:28 PM (ZPrif)

Ima get my ass handed to me, but we waited on nearly everything.

We also had both kids at home in the bathtub with a midwife.

Now, if you'll excuse me, the kale chips ("With Real Tofu Flavor!") are calling.

Posted by: Bob's House of Flannel Shirts and Wallet Chains at February 03, 2015 03:32 PM (vgIRn)

698 I think that someone else wrote this earlier but I'll kill the thread by posting. Local school districts already require vaccinations as to most (if not all) private schools. The GOP shouldn't break out the circular firing squad on this. Just say that local jurisdictions have this handled and the big problem is the tens of thousands of disease carriers flooding over our southern border. That's what the Federal Government should concern itself with, not forcing vaccinations.

Posted by: Timon at February 03, 2015 03:32 PM (ZDJwC)

699 if my kids are vaccinated, why do I care if other peoples'

The vaccines don't always work.
Also,
Herd Immunity
?Critical Minimum Population?

Posted by: DaveA at February 03, 2015 03:32 PM (DL2i+)

700 689 Posted by: Anthony Weiner at February 03, 2015 03:29 PM (yn6XZ)

So you need a meat injection? Talk to your friend Hillary.
Posted by: wrg500 at February 03, 2015 03:30 PM (C278+)

Inject meat into Mrs. Wiener would be a better idea, iykwim.

Posted by: Misanthropic Humanitrian at February 03, 2015 03:32 PM (/GgDU)

701 Richard Epstein at the Hoover Institute has written something anyone who is struggling with the constitutionality issue should read.

Link in nick.

Posted by: Y-not at February 03, 2015 03:32 PM (9BRsg)

702 Others don't and are willing to risk getting the diseases.

Who are you to take that choice away?

Whoa, I'm not...

Posted by: hello, it's Me Donna ....again at February 03, 2015 03:32 PM (Bn6aD)

703 Problem in US is you're too big, confusion reigns, anyone can say anything.
Posted by: bruce at February 03, 2015 03:31 PM (LaKyO)

Huh?

Posted by: mynewhandle at February 03, 2015 03:32 PM (AkOaV)

704 George Washington was a real innovator in forced vaccination for his troops.

Posted by: ThunderB, Sharia Compliance Officer at February 03, 2015 03:32 PM (zOTsN)

705 OK, I heard once that the word welfare back then was like "well-being." I somehow got the notion that public health was part of that.
How you get from there to screaming "Obamacare bring it on" I don't know.

Posted by: JohnnyBoy at February 03, 2015 03:32 PM (TPjwz)

706 We ran simulations on a VAX when I was in B-school. I never understood what I was doing.

Posted by: Bandersnatch at February 03, 2015 03:33 PM (JtwS4)

707 BOOM.

"The blunt truth is that even libertarians and other defenders of small government should support the basic constitutional framework that gives public officials extensive powers to control against infection and disease by devices such as quarantine and vaccination. Apart from the forced vaccination of compromised individuals, it is difficult to carve out some enduring constitutional island of individual rights from the general principle of state control"

Posted by: Y-not at February 03, 2015 03:33 PM (9BRsg)

708
"I know I had to get current on boosters before going to college (State university), and this wasn't in the Dark Ages, either."

I had to get boosters before I went to a private college too.

Posted by: Lea at February 03, 2015 03:33 PM (lIU4e)

709 I once shot a man in Reno just to watch him die.

Like this thread.

Posted by: Zombie Johnny Cash at February 03, 2015 03:33 PM (0FSuD)

710 >>>Rainy days and Mondays always get me down.......

Posted by: Misanthropic Humanitrian at February 03, 2015 03:31 PM (/GgDU)<<<

Maybe you need a Chevy Colorado. And it has wifi, ya know.

Posted by: Govt. Motors at February 03, 2015 03:33 PM (f8y+G)

711 You know who got vaccinated? Trannies. You want your kids to grow up trannies?

Posted by: CMan at February 03, 2015 03:33 PM (4QKpw)

712 Rainy days and Mondays always get me down.......

I don't like Mondays.

Posted by: Blanco Basura at February 03, 2015 03:33 PM (UVfht)

713 709 I once shot a man in Reno just to watch him die.

Like this thread.

This ones been dead for awhile...

Posted by: hello, it's Me Donna ....again at February 03, 2015 03:33 PM (Bn6aD)

714 Unless that kid is an illegal. Then anything can,

Because apparently it only takes 1 Republican Presidency for America to forget the "Don't put the @#$%^* Dems in the White House" disease.

Posted by: DaveA at February 03, 2015 03:34 PM (DL2i+)

715 Posted by: Y-not at February 03, 2015 03:32 PM (9BRsg

We are past the point of sanity.

long bow vs. cross bow
Mary Ann vs. Ginger
Great taste vs. less filling
Vac vs No Vac

Posted by: Misanthropic Humanitrian at February 03, 2015 03:34 PM (/GgDU)

716 The difference here, is that you don't have the federal government coming into my house saying "you can't cook with that food". Or, "you MUST cook with that food." So, you know, still a difference.

*headdesk*

Who (here) said anything about a FEDERAL mandate?

As for the Feds not coming into your house- that's quite right. They don't tell you that you must use chicken, or you must use beef, or whatever. But they do say that the sellers can't sell meat from animals which were sick when they were slaughtered. And they can't sell "contaminated" meat.

Much of that could be handled in cooking, so what's the big deal?

Posted by: AllenG (DedicatedTenther) - TrueCon at February 03, 2015 03:34 PM (kff5f)

717 Anti-vaxers ARE killing other people's children, here in Australia. Cause and effect here are obvious and clear, as I said above.

The US is a mess, you'll never solve anything any more, too much empty bickering.

Posted by: bruce at February 03, 2015 03:34 PM (LaKyO)

718 The "vaccines are perfectly safe" crowd are just as delusional as the "vaccines will poison Jonnies chi" crowd.

Nothing in the is perfectly safe. Nothing. Not the way you're defining it. Which is to say, you're pushing the definition to insane levels of specificity and totality with which no one anywhere would agree.

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at February 03, 2015 03:34 PM (39g3+)

719
long bow vs. cross bow
Mary Ann vs. Ginger
Great taste vs. less filling
Vac vs No Vac

Boxers or briefs...

Posted by: hello, it's Me Donna ....again at February 03, 2015 03:34 PM (Bn6aD)

720 2016 Libertarians will make the GOP pay. They are using you tea party suckers to promote their global war agenda. Wake up, it is your kids that will die, not theirs.

Posted by: Be Alert at February 03, 2015 03:35 PM (S5sZ6)

721 I just realized this post is Ace's equivalent of a DJ throwing on Stairway to Heaven - he can now go take a dump for about 4 hours while the commenters self-immolate, and nobody will notice the lack of new posts.

Posted by: Ian S. at February 03, 2015 03:35 PM (B/VB5)

722 My friend and her daughter would love to be able to be vaccinated. She makes sure the rest of the family does.

She has to risk her life because the Paul's like to curry favor with the fringes? Fuck that

Posted by: ThunderB, Sharia Compliance Officer at February 03, 2015 03:35 PM (zOTsN)

723 Yup Ace is just doing the bidding of his paymasters.
Posted by: Stop being a sucker at February 03, 2015 03:32 PM (GykF7)

And here we thought Ron Paul-loving libertarian-types were paranoid conspiracy mongers. Are those paymasters to whom Ace is beholden by any chance Jewish paymasters? Just wondering.

Posted by: troyriser at February 03, 2015 03:35 PM (CAJL/)

724
too much empty bickering

And we haven't even got to Rapey Tuesday yet.

Posted by: Bandersnatch at February 03, 2015 03:35 PM (JtwS4)

725 long bow vs. cross bow
Mary Ann vs. Ginger
Great taste vs. less filling
Vac vs No Vac

Boxers or briefs...

missionary vs doggie...

Posted by: wrg500 at February 03, 2015 03:35 PM (C278+)

726 Boxers or briefs...
Posted by: hello, it's Me Donna ....again at February 03, 2015 03:34 PM (Bn6aD)

Depends.

Posted by: Insomniac at February 03, 2015 03:35 PM (2Ojst)

727 missionary vs doggie...
Posted by: wrg500 at February 03, 2015 03:35 PM (C278+)

Cowgirl.

Posted by: Insomniac at February 03, 2015 03:36 PM (2Ojst)

728 What the hell, anyway? Why are we on the defensive about GOP policies regarding vaccination? Does anyone remember the stupid contraception issue last go-round? or the question of rape? There was no issue, except that somebody asked Santorum or Huckabee about it, and instead of looking at the questioner like they were crazy and asking what the relevance of that question was, they answered it, making the "GOP might be anti-contraception" an issue.

Candidates, heed my advice: If anyone asks you a question about which there is no bill up for debate, or about which there is no national discussion (or ought not to be one), give them the look you would give to an imbecile and tell them to come ask questions again once they have moved out of their mother's basement.

Posted by: Sambo at February 03, 2015 03:36 PM (td/y6)

729 And we haven't even got to Rapey Tuesday yet.
Posted by: Bandersnatch at February 03, 2015 03:35 PM (JtwS4)

Says you.

Posted by: The Chicken at February 03, 2015 03:36 PM (vgIRn)

730 I've been trying to get the pig or the bird flu for years to no avail. When one of these bugs goes Captain Tripps, I want an immune system that hasn't been dumbed down.

Posted by: Jaime Escalante at February 03, 2015 03:36 PM (yn6XZ)

731 Ace is just following orders. Rand must be destroyed and the conservative blogosphere are telling their mindless readers to hate Paul.

Posted by: Be Alert at February 03, 2015 03:36 PM (S5sZ6)

732 Libertarians - a huge voting base and unlimited funds. You're just not gonna beat 'em.

Posted by: I'm telling you at February 03, 2015 03:36 PM (TPjwz)

733
Boxers or briefs...
Posted by: hello, it's Me Donna ....again at February 03, 2015 03:34 PM

Commando?

Posted by: Misanthropic Humanitrian at February 03, 2015 03:37 PM (/GgDU)

734 Some one go over to Twitter and get the ewok.

I pay big bucks for this premium membership and I expect some content.

Posted by: Nip Sip at February 03, 2015 03:37 PM (0FSuD)

735
missionary vs doggie...
Posted by: wrg500 at February 03, 2015 03:35 PM (C278

Both

Posted by: Misanthropic Humanitrian at February 03, 2015 03:37 PM (/GgDU)

736 731 Ace is just following orders. Rand must be destroyed and the conservative blogosphere are telling their mindless readers to hate Paul.

The media is doing a good job at that......

Posted by: hello, it's Me Donna ....again at February 03, 2015 03:37 PM (Bn6aD)

737 yeah I wonder what the ewok is twitting about today.

Posted by: Misanthropic Humanitrian at February 03, 2015 03:37 PM (/GgDU)

738 "The blunt truth is that even libertarians and other defenders of small government should support the basic constitutional framework that gives public officials extensive powers to control against infection and disease by devices such as quarantine and vaccination. Apart from the forced vaccination of compromised individuals, it is difficult to carve out some enduring constitutional island of individual rights from the general principle of state control"

That used to be acceptable. Is it still? With Obamacare, trans fat bans, kids being taken from homes for being too fat, kids suspended from school for a pop tart chewed into a gun, an attempted ban on carbonated sodas that are "too big" on and on? Is that principle still acceptable with the government we now have?

Or is Ace's argument that we've passed the point where we could trust the government with small surrenders of liberty valid?

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at February 03, 2015 03:38 PM (39g3+)

739 Nothing in the is perfectly safe. Nothing. Not the way you're defining it. Which is to say, you're pushing the definition to insane levels of specificity and totality with which no one anywhere would agree.
Posted by: Christopher Taylor at February 03, 2015 03:34 PM (39g3+)

Okay, well if we know 3,000 out of a million (or whatever) who get the MMR vaccination will end up with serious side effects, what do we say to a parent who was totally against vaccination, then was forced to vaccinate by the government and her kid ended up with some horrible life long side effect?

I guess my point is that we should allow people to make their own risk assessments and not be so quick to get the government involved in to forcing people to take risks they may not be comfortable with.

Posted by: mynewhandle at February 03, 2015 03:38 PM (AkOaV)

740 I just realized this post is Ace's equivalent of a DJ throwing on Stairway to Heaven - he can now go take a dump

In-A-Gadda-Da_Vida is good for that too.

Posted by: Bertram Cabot Jr. at February 03, 2015 03:38 PM (W5DcG)

741 You know what else is inherently unsafe?

I mean there is a constitutional SCOTUS decision saying so.

Blood transfusions. That's right. Blood transfusions. Never perfectly safe

Bet you take a blood transfusion if you needed it

Posted by: ThunderB, Sharia Compliance Officer at February 03, 2015 03:38 PM (zOTsN)

742 740 I just realized this post is Ace's equivalent of a DJ throwing on Stairway to Heaven - he can now go take a dump

In-A-Gadda-Da_Vida is good for that too.

"Close to the Edge" for the win.

Posted by: Citizen X at February 03, 2015 03:38 PM (7ObY1)

743 -even to the point of refusing pain-killers to terminal patients so they won't get addicted.
Posted by: Stephen Price Blair at February 03, 2015 01:39 PM (J0IP0)

Screw the Liverpool option.

The Hobo Hooker's option is a hot tube full of red heads and enough cocaine to make my heart explode.
Heroin/cocaine eight balls as a last resort.

Posted by: The Hobo Hooker Waitress Model Actress Who Is Nameless at February 03, 2015 03:38 PM (s/gWD)

744 731 Ace is just following orders. Rand must be destroyed and the conservative blogosphere are telling their mindless readers to hate Paul.
Posted by: Be Alert at February 03, 2015 03:36 PM (S5sZ6

Ahhh teh unknown order givers.........

Posted by: Misanthropic Humanitrian at February 03, 2015 03:38 PM (/GgDU)

745 I don't like Mondays

Tell me why!

Posted by: Rat from Boomtown at February 03, 2015 03:39 PM (yn6XZ)

746 Both

Posted by: Misanthropic Humanitrian at February 03, 2015 03:37 PM (/GgDU)

After 30 years of marriage the choices are left hand vs right hand.

Posted by: wrg500 at February 03, 2015 03:39 PM (C278+)

747 Those who would sacrifice vaccines for a little autism will lose both and deserve neither.

Posted by: Stuff Franklin Could Have Said at February 03, 2015 03:39 PM (hHFOx)

748 @732
Libertarians are now 25% of the GOP voting block. If we sit out, vote 3rd party or support the Dems you will lose. These attacks on Rand will be avenged.

Posted by: Be Alert at February 03, 2015 03:39 PM (S5sZ6)

749 *holds lighter aloft*

Posted by: Bandersnatch at February 03, 2015 03:39 PM (JtwS4)

750 Or is Ace's argument that we've passed the point where we could trust the government with small surrenders of liberty valid?
Posted by: Christopher Taylor at February 03, 2015 03:38 PM (39g3+)

I think it's valid.

I happen to agree with vaccinations, but I'm very nervous whenever I hear the chattering class start calling for more government power, especially when its "for the children". It makes me suspicious of their intentions.
What's their end game? Because they typically have one.

Posted by: mynewhandle at February 03, 2015 03:39 PM (AkOaV)

751 Be Alert = Hector

Posted by: Citizen X at February 03, 2015 03:39 PM (7ObY1)

752 Cowgirl can break you.

Just sayin'

Posted by: JohnnyBoy at February 03, 2015 03:39 PM (TPjwz)

753 Like father like son. Man that crazy apple didn't even make an effort to roll away from the tree, did it?

Posted by: TangoNine at February 03, 2015 03:39 PM (x3YFz)

754 Tuesday Afternoon

Posted by: Bertram Cabot Jr. at February 03, 2015 03:40 PM (W5DcG)

755 740 I just realized this post is Ace's equivalent of a DJ throwing on Stairway to Heaven - he can now go take a dump

In-A-Gadda-Da_Vida is good for that too.
Posted by: Bertram Cabot Jr. at February 03, 2015 03:38 PM (W5DcG

The whole fucking album both sides

Posted by: Misanthropic Humanitrian at February 03, 2015 03:40 PM (/GgDU)

756 Hector, Hector, Hector.

There are migrant workers behind the dumpster awaiting their blowjobs.

Stop shirking and get to work.

Posted by: Citizen X at February 03, 2015 03:40 PM (7ObY1)

757 Sit out you stupid fuck

Posted by: ThunderB, Sharia Compliance Officer at February 03, 2015 03:40 PM (zOTsN)

758 Tuesday Afternoon

The Moody Blues... Great group

Posted by: hello, it's Me Donna ....again at February 03, 2015 03:40 PM (Bn6aD)

759 Tango

Posted by: Misanthropic Humanitrian at February 03, 2015 03:40 PM (/GgDU)

760 You people are still here? Sheesh.

Posted by: Hopped Up On Something at February 03, 2015 03:40 PM (NHtMs)

761 I bet illegal aliens kill more kids than measles and the measles vaccination COMBINED!

Posted by: gm at February 03, 2015 03:40 PM (/kBoL)

762 After 30 years of marriage the choices are left hand vs right hand.

Posted by: wrg500 at February 03, 2015 03:39 PM (C278+)

Go with the left hand, it's like strange.

Posted by: Nip Sip at February 03, 2015 03:41 PM (0FSuD)

763 Okay SO.

Time to herd the cats a. to listen to BC and I's podcast shoo go.

II. When you get back, let us discuss the sidebar link on the Argentinian prosecutor who was assassinated.

Let me see if I understand. You assassinate the guy and made some half assed attempt to stage a suicide but then you throw the arrest warrant in the trash?

That's just sheer incompetence, that's what that is.

Posted by: alexthechick - Go. Listen. You know you want to. at February 03, 2015 03:41 PM (mf5HN)

764 @744
No it is not unknown, Conservative bloggers take orders from their paymasters in DC. The elites want Walker becasue he will do their bidding and go to war and commit the nation to more nation building. The elites in the GOP will get fat contracts to nation build.

You are being used.

Posted by: Be Alert at February 03, 2015 03:41 PM (S5sZ6)

765 That used to be acceptable. Is it still? With Obamacare, trans fat bans, kids being taken from homes for being too fat, kids suspended from school for a pop tart chewed into a gun, an attempted ban on carbonated sodas that are "too big" on and on? Is that principle still acceptable with the government we now have?

Or is Ace's argument that we've passed the point where we could trust the government with small surrenders of liberty valid?
--

What you put in your body does not transmit to me. Even under Obamacare, it only hits my pocket, not my life.

Ace is over-thinking this... Or, rather, not thinking it out clearly. I think this post is evidence of that. He agrees with Rand in substance but is uncomfortable with how/where Rand is saying this, apparently.

I am not a libertarian, but I believe Richard Epstein is considered to be one of the preeminent Libertarians and a constitutional scholar. I encourage anyone who is sincerely grappling with this issue to read his column.

Posted by: Y-not at February 03, 2015 03:41 PM (9BRsg)

766 753 Like father like son. Man that crazy apple didn't even make an effort to roll away from the tree, did it?
Posted by: TangoNine at February 03, 2015 03:39 PM (x3YFz)

Nothing Rand said was crazy.

Or do you buy Ace's position that anything said in the vicinity of Alex Jones is thus nuts and disqualifying, no matter what was said?

Posted by: mynewhandle at February 03, 2015 03:41 PM (AkOaV)

767 753 Like father like son. Man that crazy apple didn't even make an effort to roll away from the tree, did it?
Posted by: TangoNine at February 03, 2015 03:39 PM (x3YFz)

Nothing Rand said was crazy.

Or do you buy Ace's position that anything said in the vicinity of Alex Jones is thus nuts and disqualifying, no matter what was said?

Posted by: mynewhandle at February 03, 2015 03:41 PM (AkOaV)

768 I bet public schools make more kids retarded than all vaccines combined!

Posted by: gm at February 03, 2015 03:41 PM (/kBoL)

769 Ace is just following orders. Rand must be destroyed and the
conservative blogosphere are telling their mindless readers to hate
Paul.

IDK, seems Rand is doing that just fine on his own.

Posted by: Blanco Basura at February 03, 2015 03:41 PM (UVfht)

770 Now, there's some good folks who read Infowars, but the place is just over the edge into crazyville. Like grey men trying to mind control you and HARP and just miles of nonsense. CHEMTRAILS IS OUT TO GET US!! (11))()O ONE!!

batshit crazy.

Posted by: TangoNine at February 03, 2015 03:42 PM (x3YFz)

771 >>I haven't read all the comments, but I don't think anyone here has a problem with vaccinations.

Read more of the comments. Some are either anti-vax or so hysterically anti-government that it makes no difference in their conclusions.

There are no federal laws on vaccines and kids in schools only state level laws. These laws have been on the books for decades and there are more Republicans in governors chairs than Dems. Ronald Reagan was governor of CA. He did not ban vaccines because they represent good medical science.

Government is often wrong and overreaching. It is neither in this case and vaccinating kids has overwhelming public support. Sometimes fire really can melt steel.

Posted by: JackStraw at February 03, 2015 03:42 PM (g1DWB)

772 When a post like this brings out the entire luaP noR troll army, it only reinforces why us Libertarian-leaning folks want nothing to do with the Libertarian Party.

Posted by: Citizen X at February 03, 2015 03:42 PM (7ObY1)

773 "These attacks on Rand will be avenged."

Yes, indeed. The army of cloistered, forty year old virgins who will take to internet comboxes to avenge the defeat of their leader by making obnoxious, vague, and overwrought statements will be something the likes of which none of us has ever seen before.

Truly. Truly we are scared.

Posted by: Bill Donohue at February 03, 2015 03:42 PM (P1jJI)

774 Sambo, I'd go one step further and kick them off the campaign plane and tell their network that their debate might have to be rescheduled - for three AM on a Sunday night - for the critical Hawaiian vote.

Posted by: Jean at February 03, 2015 03:43 PM (mjiiZ)

775 I used to mock the Paulites and Info Wars crowd and they've certainly got that crowd of crazies, but as time has gone on i can't help but notice that, like the quote in this post, most of the things they say actually aren't crazy at all, Jones can still bring the conspiracy looniness every once in a while, but more often than not what he's peddling is pretty standard stuff that gets dismissed simply because it's him. As for Paul, the attacks on him right now are just the party loyalists trying to get a head start on pushing him out, i doubt he'll get the R nom anyway, but he's the only R i'd vote for, if it's not him i'll happily vote L.

Posted by: booger at February 03, 2015 03:43 PM (tzcDX)

776
This is pretty awesome.
http://tinyurl.com/khepruh

Posted by: maddogg at February 03, 2015 03:43 PM (xWW96)

777 In-A-Gadda-Da_Vida is good for that too.

Posted by: Bertram Cabot Jr. at February 03, 2015 03:38 PM (W5DcG

The whole fucking album both sides

Posted by: Misanthropic Humanitrian at February 03, 2015 03:40 PM (/GgDU)

This is why I get sick of Sirus 25 and 26. All they do is play albums cuts that last 30 minutes.

Fuck that much guitar. Really. I am not stoned.

Posted by: Nip Sip at February 03, 2015 03:44 PM (0FSuD)

778 It's not paranoia when Obama is really out to get you.

Posted by: CitizenMonster at February 03, 2015 03:44 PM (0NdlF)

779 nood

Posted by: AltonJackson at February 03, 2015 03:44 PM (2Ayux)

780 The tea party is full of suckers. The GOP gives you rhetoric and does nothing for you. The GOP however, does give the neocoons any nation building exercise they desire. The GOP engages in anti-abortion rhetoric, yet it is still legal.

You are being played as a sucker.

Posted by: Be Alert at February 03, 2015 03:44 PM (S5sZ6)

781 Oh goodie, now a luaP noR concern troll too.

Posted by: Citizen X at February 03, 2015 03:44 PM (7ObY1)

782 NOOD

Posted by: Y-not at February 03, 2015 03:44 PM (9BRsg)

783 I happen to agree with vaccinations, but I'm very nervous whenever I hear the chattering class start calling for more government power, especially when its "for the children". It makes me suspicious of their intentions.
What's their end game? Because they typically have one.

Once more, I'm forced to point out that no one is saying the Federal Government should have this authority.

**re-reads**

ALMOST no one is saying the Federal Government should have this authority. State and Local Governments should, however.

And, as with any power the Government has, it can absolutely be abused. The only way to prevent the government from abusing power is not to give the government any power. But that's anarchy (really anarchy- no government), and I don't think we want that either.

Next best is to watch the government like a hawk and screech like a harpy when they step over their bounds. Which you can reasonably do with the State or local governments, not so much with the National government.

Posted by: AllenG (DedicatedTenther) - TrueCon at February 03, 2015 03:44 PM (kff5f)

784 Be Alert = Hector
Posted by: Citizen X at February 03, 2015 03:39 PM (7ObY1)

--------------------------------------------

As regular as shit from a goose.

Posted by: Jenny McCarthy at February 03, 2015 03:44 PM (/HX7u)

785 768 I bet public schools make more kids retarded than all vaccines combined!
Posted by: gm at February 03, 2015 03:41 PM (/kBoL)

Some variation of this would be a great answer to anyone who tries to peg one of our guys to the wall with a non-issue gotcha question. Just turn it around to something relevant that puts their side on defense.

Posted by: Sambo at February 03, 2015 03:44 PM (td/y6)

786 >>>Truly. Truly we are scared.

Posted by: Bill Donohue at February 03, 2015 03:42 PM (P1jJI)>>>

You should be scared of the Common Core opponents you shithead.

Posted by: gm at February 03, 2015 03:44 PM (/kBoL)

787 Mr. Handle,

I think we covered that in post #48

We are stupid. We fully admit it. What's your point?

Posted by: JohnnyBoy at February 03, 2015 03:45 PM (TPjwz)

788 "The US is a mess, you'll never solve anything any more, too much empty bickering."

This kind of "empty bickering" used to be known in the entire anglosphere as "free expression" and "public debate." You seem to be arguing from the basis that "the science AND the morality is settled." I'm all for more bickering.

At some point we need to stop self-censoring because "the media wants us to do this" and "circular firing squad." How about "Hey, America, this is how politics is supposed to work - everyone gets their say, and our citizens learn critical thinking, debate and rhetoric by doing, rather than receiving pre-digested opinions by State Approved Experts."

When Australia gets around to "re-repealing" 18c, Bruce, you can discuss bickering with me.

Posted by: SocietyIs2Blame at February 03, 2015 03:45 PM (QKIQb)

789 can we ease up on the pissing matches? Please?

-
Why should this be any different from the rest of my life?

Posted by: The Great White Snark at February 03, 2015 03:45 PM (j6e8f)

790 @776

Don't tell JJ, he'll want them back on the trains.

Posted by: Nip Sip at February 03, 2015 03:45 PM (0FSuD)

791 furiously masturbate to their preferred position.

Pro tip: Get in position then unleash the fury, otherwise chafing.

Posted by: DaveA at February 03, 2015 03:45 PM (DL2i+)

792 Ace has finally had mercy on us.

Nood up.

Posted by: AllenG (DedicatedTenther) - TrueCon at February 03, 2015 03:46 PM (kff5f)

793 Off voluptuous insane witch sock

Posted by: Soona at February 03, 2015 03:46 PM (/HX7u)

794
it only reinforces why us Libertarian-leaning folks want nothing to do with the Libertarian Party.
----

Yep. Every time I take a serious look again at the libertarian party I end backing away slowly from the crazy...

Posted by: Lea at February 03, 2015 03:46 PM (lIU4e)

795 "You'll watch me vaccinate your kid and you'll fucking like it."

I'll kill you first. Not because I hate vaccinations. All my kids are. But because you think you can seize my children and force a vial of anything into their bodies against my will. You'd better be willing to die for that act of oppression. Because you would.

Also, this 'you can't send your little spawn into the world to infect mine so i can do what i want to yours' is bullshit. If my unvaccinated child has measles, once it is apparent do you think they're going to be hanging out at the mall? And if yours IS vaccinated, you're at no special risk. Isn't that, you know, the ENTIRE FUCK8NG POINT? Because I know when I got my kids their shots, it was for their health, not so I could assume some sort of moral license to seize other people's kids.

When did this become a hangout for totalitarian progressives?

If the state can seize children and inject them for their own good, do you REALLY think it's going to stop at measles? Have you been asleep the last fifteen years?

Why can't police officers pull you over for random, mandatory blood draws? That's not speculation, they've already done it in some jurisdictions.

"It's for your own good." The battle cry of every tyranny.

Posted by: Df82 at February 03, 2015 03:46 PM (Xj0/n)

796 @775
They want Rand gone becasue he is against nation building and unlimited wars. The bloggers hate that Rand Paul is trying to appeal top Blacks. Its a confluence of interest that work against Paul.

The joke will be on them in November 2016 when libertarians vote for the Libertarian party, sit it out out even vote for Hillary in revenge.

Posted by: Be Alert at February 03, 2015 03:46 PM (S5sZ6)

797 "Nothing in the is perfectly safe. Nothing. Not the way you're defining it. Which is to say, you're pushing the definition to insane levels of specificity and totality with which no one anywhere would agree."

So stop saying "It's safe!" and calling anybody who has a calm talk about the risks and suggest some vaccines are worth the risk and others aren't, is a kook and anti-science.

"Bet you take a blood transfusion if you needed it"

If I need it, I'm incompetent to give medical care instructions.

"There was no issue, except that somebody asked Santorum or Huckabee about it, and instead of looking at the questioner like they were crazy and asking what the relevance of that question was, they answered it, making the "GOP might be anti-contraception" an issue."

Let me guess. You don't care if the Democrats win on abortion, right?

Posted by: Chris_Balsz at February 03, 2015 03:47 PM (kTWS+)

798
missionary vs doggie...
..................
Are they both hog tied?

Posted by: wth at February 03, 2015 03:47 PM (wAQA5)

799 position that anything said in the vicinity of Alex Jones is thus nuts and disqualifying, no matter what was said?

Being a public figure in the vicinity of Alex Jones is insanity in and of its self.

Posted by: Jean at February 03, 2015 03:48 PM (mjiiZ)

800 Picric, MisHum, Allen G.,
Thanks.
I'm going to leave thread open & send email to Yahoo Group.

Posted by: Carol at February 03, 2015 03:48 PM (sj3Ax)

801 I was allergic to eggs when I was a baby (b. 1966), so I didn't get all of my vaccinations then (they were egg-based I guess), including smallpox. But I did get them when I went in the Navy in the late 1980s. So I guess I should thank my elementary school classmates for protecting me by getting all the vaccinations. Except Jimmy Cashman. What a dick.

Posted by: Unanimouse at February 03, 2015 03:48 PM (7u7u7)

802 If Ace got too close to the conservative base and its evolution towards more libertarianism, Ace wouldn't be able to keep Gabe Malor around.

Posted by: Less Hyperventilation Please at February 03, 2015 03:48 PM (2Hi/e)

803 Posted by: booger at February 03, 2015 03:43 PM (tzcDX)

Alex Jones' theory that the Rothschild Family heads an international cabal of evil Jewish Bankers who--with their allies in the dreaded Illuminati--intend to depopulate and enslave humanity while transforming themselves into a near-immortal race of super-beings does seem a bit over the top. I mean, I don't know many people in real life who believe stuff like that. If I knew more than two or three, I might think gee I don't know but maybe I'm hanging with the wrong crowd and people might think I'm BATSHIT DOWN TO THE BONE CRAZY, too. So yeah, appearances can be important.

Posted by: troyriser at February 03, 2015 03:49 PM (CAJL/)

804 >>>Rand Paul will be the R nominee, so you'd better get used to the idea.<<<

So with Hillary as the D nominee, it'll be like we're choosing between the disease and the side effects of the vaccine.

Posted by: Fritz at February 03, 2015 03:49 PM (UzPAd)

805 These vac threads certainly give the ignore_user.js an immune response.

Posted by: DaveA at February 03, 2015 03:50 PM (DL2i+)

806 Government is often wrong and overreaching. It is neither in this case and vaccinating kids has overwhelming public support. Sometimes fire really can melt steel.

I understand that your style of arguing is to throw a grenade then stare defiantly at people but this is going a bit too far, don't you think?

Arguing that in the present setting giving government an inch means they'll take a mile and steal your car in the process these days is not the same as saying 9/11 was a lie. Please.

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at February 03, 2015 03:50 PM (39g3+)

807 Did Ace go out for a walk?

Posted by: Carol at February 03, 2015 03:50 PM (sj3Ax)

808 "The joke will be on them in November 2016 when libertarians vote for the Libertarian party, sit it out out even vote for Hillary in revenge."

My God, what will we do when all 12 of you vote for Hillary?

Posted by: Paul at February 03, 2015 03:50 PM (P1jJI)

809 >>>802 If Ace got too close to the conservative base and its evolution towards more libertarianism, Ace wouldn't be able to keep Gabe Malor around.
Posted by: Less Hyperventilation Please at February 03, 2015 03:48 PM (2Hi/e)>>>

Gabe isn't really "around" anymore anyway.

Posted by: gm at February 03, 2015 03:51 PM (/kBoL)

810 "Why can't police officers pull you over for random, mandatory blood
draws? That's not speculation, they've already done it in some
jurisdictions."

If you're allegedly drunk in CA, they can. Schmerber v. California and its progeny. You allegedly waive your rights against self-incrimination and privacy, etc re: having a forcible blood test by getting a driver's license. That kind of "logic" can be stretched to cover pretty much anything.

Posted by: SocietyIs2Blame at February 03, 2015 03:51 PM (QKIQb)

811 You should be scared of the Common Core opponents you shithead.
Posted by: gm at February 03, 2015 03:44 PM (/kBoL)

What? Did you say that backward? It is the common core proponents you should be afraid of.

Posted by: Sambo at February 03, 2015 03:53 PM (td/y6)

812 >>I understand that your style of arguing is to throw a grenade then stare defiantly at people but this is going a bit too far, don't you think?

Ha! Guys on here are talking about shooting people who say that they must follow the law and vaccinate their children if they want them to attend publicly funded institutions and the overwhelming and I mean hugely overwhelmingly number of citizens support this position and I am throwing a grenade?

I reject your premise. And I maintain that anti-vaxers are engaging in their own version of trutherism by denying that vaccines for things like measles and polio are safe, tested and enjoy widespread popular support. If people want to put their kids at risk then have at it. You don't have the right to put other people's kids at risk.

People are obviously free to have their own opinion, not so much with facts.

Posted by: JackStraw at February 03, 2015 03:55 PM (g1DWB)

813
This is the same government that permitted the Tuskegee syphilis experiment to run 39+ years, so...yeah, trust, yeah, no, not so much.

Posted by: I R A Darth Aggie at February 03, 2015 03:58 PM (1hM1d)

814 Posted by: troyriser at February 03, 2015 03:49 PM (CAJL/)

Yeah Jones can bring the crazy, but government is a disgusting institution full of equally disgusting people, all looking for power over my life, and i've reached the point where i'm comfortable with putting up with some crazy conspiracy nonsense from a guy like Jones if it means getting some of that government power off my back.

Posted by: booger at February 03, 2015 03:59 PM (tzcDX)

815 >>>What? Did you say that backward? It is the common core proponents you should be afraid of.
Posted by: Sambo at February 03, 2015 03:53 PM (td/y6)>>>

Yeah. But, statist Common Core Republican proponents, like Bill Donohue, should be afraid of the opponents.

Posted by: gm at February 03, 2015 03:59 PM (/kBoL)

816 Rand Paul is racing for the basement-dweller vote that his father captured. At least he does not kowtow to Zionist banksters.

Posted by: Mary Cloggenstein from Brattleboro, VT at February 03, 2015 04:00 PM (R/01c)

817 So stop saying "It's safe!" and calling anybody who has a calm talk about the risks and suggest some vaccines are worth the risk and others aren't, is a kook and anti-science.

Again, nothing is "safe" the way you want to define it. You seem to want "safe" to mean "absolutely no risk whatsoever under any circumstances" and that's ludicrious.

The proper position to take is to decide whether the miniscule risk of vaccinations overrules the massive risk of not getting them. And that's a no-brainer, to the point of insanity to disagree - or massive ignorance so great it is painful to behold.

I maintain that anti-vaxers are engaging in their own version of trutherism by denying that vaccines for things like measles and polio are safe, tested and enjoy widespread popular support.

You and I agree on this. But that's not who you're arguing with. Ace doesn't agree with them. I don't. I doubt anyone here does.

We're just very nervous about government overstepping its boundaries by six or seven miles again, as it has been the last 50 years or so with increasing vigor and regularity.

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at February 03, 2015 04:00 PM (39g3+)

818 Posted by: booger at February 03, 2015 03:59 PM (tzcDX)

Man, there's crazy and then there's sheer irrational madness, the abyss staring right back. I strive to steer clear of anything even remotely resembling either.

Posted by: troyriser at February 03, 2015 04:02 PM (CAJL/)

819 >>>You don't have the right to put other people's kids at risk.

Posted by: JackStraw at February 03, 2015 03:55 PM (g1DWB)>>>

Someone not getting his kids vaccinated puts your vaccinated kids at about as much risk as allowing someone to own a gun, drink alcohol, or eat a burger puts your kids at risk.

Posted by: gm at February 03, 2015 04:02 PM (/kBoL)

820 Bush lied to our Presdent of Color people............We demand Bush's arrest immediately and be sent to GITMO for imprisionment. Bush lied and freedom died and the good peeple of Brattleboro do not like this injustice.

Posted by: Mary Clogginstien From Brattleboro, VT at February 03, 2015 04:07 PM (Sd++4)

821 Ace can get a thousand comments with a little shrieking about Rand Paul. Ace and his buddy Gabe can't stomach the thought of a good statist like Jeb or Rubio losing to a guy who wants less government.

Posted by: Less Hyperventilation Please at February 03, 2015 04:07 PM (2Hi/e)

822 >>Someone not getting his kids vaccinated puts your vaccinated kids at about as much risk as allowing someone to own a gun, drink alcohol, or eat a burger puts your kids at risk.

Apparently, majorities in all 50 states disagree with you.

Posted by: JackStraw at February 03, 2015 04:08 PM (g1DWB)

823 Posted by: troyriser at February 03, 2015 04:02 PM (CAJL/)

Well that's the thing, Jones isn't irrational, he's made a good living for a long time peddling crazy, i don't have anything against people who don't want any part of that, i've just reached that point where i'm willing to put up with it.

Posted by: booger at February 03, 2015 04:08 PM (tzcDX)

824
re: teh sideboob

Just read the story about Tom Brady giving the mvp truck to Malcolm Butler. That's nice.

How much you wanna bet Butler will be cut from the team before next season? Not because he's bad or they don't like him; but just because he's a dime-a-dozen in Belichick's eyes, which he is.

Posted by: Soothsayer at February 03, 2015 04:11 PM (FiWED)

825 Growing up a local lady had complications resulting from the swine flue vax, resulting in her having part of her frontal skull removed.

Posted by: DonS at February 03, 2015 04:17 PM (MLzEj)

826 Ace actually sympathizes with much of what Rand says but can't help but shriek and call names. Ace is certainly Gabe's brother.

Posted by: Less Hyperventilation Please at February 03, 2015 04:18 PM (2Hi/e)

827 >>>Apparently, majorities in all 50 states disagree with you.

Posted by: JackStraw at February 03, 2015 04:08 PM (g1DWB)>>>

No idea what the fuck that is supposed to mean. As if statistics and probabilities are subject to "consensus." Or, maybe you're just a proponent of uninformed mob rule. Whatevs.

Posted by: gm at February 03, 2015 04:19 PM (/kBoL)

828 The consensus says that Americans like Statists and hate the Pauls.

Posted by: Less Hyperventilation Please at February 03, 2015 04:26 PM (2Hi/e)

829 The problematic part of the interview is that it happened at all. InfoWars and Alex Jones, even in 2009, was well known as kook fringe.

As for the worrying about mandatory vaccinations, this interview happened just 2 years after Gov. Perry, supposedly one of the top conservative governors in the nation, tried to force HPV vaccines on all 11-12 year old school girls. Not MMR or flu or something you could catch by being the same classroom with someone infected, but HPV which can only be transmitted through sexual contact. I can only think that Perry thinks sex ed must be exactly like the Monty Python skit except with student participation grades.

Posted by: Ken in NH at February 03, 2015 05:20 PM (MqjGP)

830 The consensus says that Americans like Statists and hate the Pauls.

Half right anyway.

Posted by: toby928(C) mutters at February 03, 2015 05:31 PM (evdj2)

831 "Again, nothing is "safe" the way you want to define it. You seem to want "safe" to mean "absolutely no risk whatsoever under any circumstances" and that's ludicrious.

The proper position to take is to decide whether the miniscule risk of vaccinations overrules the massive risk of not getting them. And that's a no-brainer, to the point of insanity to disagree - or massive ignorance so great it is painful to behold."

WRONG. Gardasil wrong. And that's just it -- by saying "vaccinations good!" without any discussion, you end up rubber-stamping a mandatory injection for a cancer that develops in 1/1,000,000 people who engage in oral sex.
Or anything else they come up with, because Debate Over.
That is NOT a no-brainer. That is being naive and stupid.

Posted by: Chris_Balsz at February 03, 2015 06:02 PM (kTWS+)

832 If you agree, then leave it at that. Do you feel, or do you think? I'd rather someone pander to the 'paranoids', who are often right decades in advance, than the 'reasonable' people who've been slowly and not-so-slowly driving the bus over the cliff in that time.

Posted by: noyb at February 03, 2015 08:28 PM (fb1M2)

833 This is the one issue where I see the right resort to leftist tactic with equal, if not more, degrees of rabid nastiness. The name calling, marginalizing, irrationality, lack of objectivity, "The science is settled! Burn them" people. I've seen comments from the right saying "people who don't vaccinate should be put in jail" and worse "... should be shot" Individual freedom and choice? Poof. Out the fking window. Constitution and Freedom loving gun owners now want to jail and shoot people. Did you know Dr. Benjamin Rush, a founding signer of the Declaration argued for a medical freedom amendment?

"Unless we put medical freedom into the Constitution, the time will come when medicine will organize into an undercover dictatorship to restrict the art of healing to one class of Men and denying equal privileges to others; the Constitution of the Republic should make a Special privilege for medical freedoms as well as religious freedoms."

And worse of all? No one is even talking about the slight of hand going on here. This isn't about vaccinate vs not. This is about misdirection, directing the narrative. People have been choosing to not vaccinate for more years than many of us have been alive. This isn't anything new. But as long as these putz wads can get you fighting you aren't talking about WHY this is going on now let alone losing the ability to debate rationally. There were 173 confirmed cases of Measles in 2013. That number went to 644 confirmed cases in 2014. Now add in EV-68 outbreak starting in August, right about the time school starts, running amok, a KNOWN virus with polio-like symptoms within South American countries and Mexico. What happened starting in March 2014? How easily some can be lead by a ring through the nose. WTF, people? You can recite chapter and verse on "spygate" but you can't even remember less than a year ago? What, still high on deflatgate and the SuperBowl?

Posted by: halodoc at February 03, 2015 08:31 PM (Fzbp3)

834 Good to see the establishment and the neocons using old radio interviews in an effort to smear Senator Paul and prevent him from becoming president because as CiC he'd be unlikely to launch a unilateral war against Iran for the benefit of Israel.

Posted by: Justfactualthings at February 04, 2015 02:27 AM (oCxXI)

835 Who, exactly, is put at risk by a parent's decision not to vaccinate their children? Not my kids who are vaccinated, right?

Posted by: steve walsh at February 04, 2015 08:34 AM (gB9nl)

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