Rand Goes Full Paul on Vaccines

Vaccines are the media's new "Birth Control Pills" question for the GOP -- injecting an out-of-nowhere wedge issue question into the debate just because it hurts the GOP.

Almost all GOP politicians are pro-vaccination, of course -- but a distressing number of GOP voters are against it, making this a politically difficult question.

Note that the media could drop any number of such wedge issue questions on Democrats -- do you favor the making taxpayers pay for voluntary sex-reassignment surgery -- but they don't because they're Democrats themselves and want to hide such wedge issues, not expose them.

NBC's very partisan Democrat Kasie Hunt is responsible for the current media gotcha game. Noah Rothman calls this "vacillating" on whether or not vaccines are necessary-- I don't see it that way at all.

New Jersey Gov. Chris Christie walked back comments he made here Monday morning calling for "balance" on the measles vaccine debate to allow for parental choice, asserting that "there is no question kids should be vaccinated."
"The Governor believes vaccines are an important public health protection and with a disease like measles there is no question kids should be vaccinated," Christie's office said in a statement. "At the same time different states require different degrees of vaccination, which is why he was calling for balance in which ones government should mandate."
Earlier Monday, Christie waded into the vaccination debate during his visit to the United Kingdom, telling reporters in Cambridge that he believes U.S. government must "balance" public health interests with parental choice. In a break with President Obama, Christie said parents should have "some measure of choice" about immunizing their children from measles and other viruses and diseases.

Noah Rothman is obviously strongly pro-vaccination. That's a worthy position. But that is not the same as being pro-forcing-vaccinations-on-people-against-their-will.

I wish all politically minded people would get this tattooed on the inside of their own eyeballs, so that they never fail to see the advisory when looking out into the world: The fact that a choice is good is no evidence that it should also be mandatory.

I didn't think Christie's remarks were out-of-line. I disagree with the anti-vaccine people, and I think I'd find many of them to be superstitious and given over to that type of "skepticism" that results in having almost no skepticism whatsoever against various pop-rumor fears and conspiracies. That sort of "skepticism" that involves an intense skepticism bordering on paranoia towards the government and anyone in any "official" position -- anti-white-coat-ism -- but no skepticism at all for the various "Citizen Informer" newsletters pumping out these various paranoias.

If you're only skeptical towards one side, and are completely credulous towards the other, you're not actually a "skeptic" at all. You're a True Blue Believer, you just believe things contrary to most.

But it's absolutely immaterial whether or not I approve of such people's anti-vaccination beliefs. Until we are faced with a public heath crisis so grave that it demands we begin stripping away people's freedoms, they are entitled to believe these things, and act accordingly.

The only freedom that matters is the Freedom to Be Wrong.

No other freedom matters one whit -- because if you're "right" in the eyes of those in power, your freedom will never be challenged, and hence you have no need of any right to belief or right to speech.

And yes, I do get that there are, of course, a growing number of measles cases due to parents' getting all silly about Internet Fear-Mongering and choosing to leave their kids unvaccinated against a potentially lethal disease. (Kids used to go blind from this -- I think that happened to the eldest sister on Little House on the Prarie.)

But no, we are not yet anywhere near some kind of emergency. Anyone who takes a small uptick in measels cases -- I think in California it went from like 60 to 100, or something like that -- as a justification for forcing people to do things against their will is just looking for any pretext to strip people of their liberties, and needs to know that about themselves.

And needs to change that about themselves.

We are not appointed by God to be Knights Errant fighting the demons that lurk within our fellow citizens and forcing them to heel beneath the King's law.

People should be free, to the maximum extent bearable, to be as foolish, shortsighted, gullible and dumb as people naturally are.

We do not go looking for some cheap justification to demonstrate our social distaste for some people by criminalizing their choices.

By those lights -- which I think should be standard conservatism, not some kind of fringe libertarianism -- I see nothing wrong with Christie's statement.

He said that there must be a "balance" when taking actions which force people to undergo medical treatments to which they object.

Think about how serious that is -- forcing someone's kid to undergo a medical treatment to which they object.

Now, yeah, I think the anti-vaccers are paranoid and doing wrong by their children, and in fact doing wrong by other people's children, by giving these diseases a habitat to thrive in.

But we all live to some extent in pools of risk created by our neighbors and other citizens. We have to accept the risk that an 80 year old driver may have a stroke and plow into us or our kids. We do not dragoon him to the DMV every month for a check-up; some small level of risk we are required to bear.

We do not have anything like the serious outbreak which would actually require us to force children to undergo medical treatments over their parents' objections, and we should not Gin Up Fear about the actual low level of risk we face just because we object to the anti-vaccers on a social and intellectual level.

It is far too easy --and far too pleasurable -- to squelch a minority belief system. We ought to be on guard against it.

On the other hand, while I would allow anti-vaccers to put their kids in jeopardy rather than abridge their freedoms, certainly I would not attempt to play to their paranoias, nor stoke them.

And this is exactly what Rand Paul seems to be doing:

Rand to CNBC: "I have heard of many …cases of walking, talking normal children who wound up with profound mental disorders after vaccines"
— Zeke Miller (@ZekeJMiller) February 2, 2015

Here's a slightly longer quote:

UPDATE: A few hours after this story went up, Kentucky Senator Rand Paul appeared on CNBC and was asked to clarify if he thought most vaccines should be voluntary.
"I guess being for freedom would be really unusual?" Paul said, sarcastically. "I guess I don't understand the point, as to why that would be controversial."
As he clarified, he mostly stuck to what he'd said on talk radio today. Only toward the end of his answer did he explain the dangers, as he saw them, in vaccinating children.
"I've heard of many tragic cases of walking, talking, normal children who wound up with profound mental disorders after vaccines," said Paul. "I'm not arguing vaccines are a bad idea. I think they're a good thing. But I think the parents should have some input."

Indeed they should -- but why are you encouraging them to believe that vaccines cause mental retardation?

And you're a doctor, for God's sakes.

Eh, the Paul bunch, what can you do? They are John Bircher paleocon paranoids and always have been.

Rand's just his dad with a little bit of an internal editor.

I had had hope for Rand Paul and was open to his candidacy, but every time he or his conspiracy-addled lunatic father open their mouths, I cringe more.

The family has gotten politically rich off the same motto as that of the Ghostbusters:

We Are Prepared To Believe You.

Paul, Inc., exists because the cadre of paranoids and conspiracists likes to be flattered as having raised "Serious Questions," and will vote for anyone (and donate, and Subscribe to Your Newsletters) who so flatters them.

Posted by: Ace at 05:17 PM

Comments

(Jump to bottom of comments)

1 I'm here for my Tardisil shot.

Posted by: Landofskybluewater at February 02, 2015 05:18 PM (jruEW)

2 ....and first, bitches.

Posted by: Landofskybluewater at February 02, 2015 05:18 PM (jruEW)

3 He should know better.

Posted by: EC at February 02, 2015 05:19 PM (doBIb)

4
Luap Dnar ?

Posted by: The Jackhole at February 02, 2015 05:20 PM (6/J77)

5 Tardisil, the Sequel.

Posted by: Jinx the Cat at February 02, 2015 05:20 PM (l3vZN)

6 I'm Baaaaaack !!!!

even went to Disney Land

Posted by: The Measels at February 02, 2015 05:20 PM (W6iIX)

7 So if lusting after Kate Upton is wrong, that means I am promoting freedom, right?

Posted by: blaster at February 02, 2015 05:20 PM (Rx8ML)

8 ( with fingers spread, touching at the fingertips ) Hmmmm... billions and billions of stars and you idiots are discussing Rand Paul... hmm

Posted by: Carl Sagan at February 02, 2015 05:21 PM (84SRe)

9 7 So if lusting after Kate Upton is wrong, that means I am promoting freedom, right?

Is lusting after Kate Upton mandatory? Because it should be.

Posted by: wooga at February 02, 2015 05:22 PM (HoRFj)

10 I saw a book on Amazon (can't remember the title) which basically said that the whole "vaccines cause autism" thing was thought up by some doctor who wanted lots of attention.

Posted by: Null at February 02, 2015 05:22 PM (xjpRj)

11 It's true...not getting Polio has driven me the fuck crazy...

Goddamn I hate being right, and Luap Darn proves me more and more right on the Luap Nor crazy being attached to the Y chromosome of that bloodline.

Posted by: Sven S Blade a.k.a. El Assassin@sven10077 at February 02, 2015 05:22 PM (/4AZU)

12 My God, it's full of words!

Posted by: Garrett at February 02, 2015 05:22 PM (lq9ci)

13 "Almost all GOP politicians are pro-vaccination, of course -- but a distressing number of GOP voters are against it, making this a politically difficult question."

Do you have numbers, ace? (Don't make me follow the links!)

Posted by: Y-not at February 02, 2015 05:23 PM (9BRsg)

14 You can keep unprotected peanuts out of a school.
But unvaccinated kids can attend?

Either you get your kid vaccinated, or I'm bringing a peanut butter and jelly sandwich to lunchroom.

You pick.

Posted by: Village Idiot's Apprentice at February 02, 2015 05:23 PM (8Un8+)

15 Can't let a crisis go to waste, even if it's not a crisis and even if letting it go to waste would mean we don't pepper (R) hopefuls with endless questions on when they would finally step aside and let the government save children.

Posted by: Reality Man at February 02, 2015 05:23 PM (Cs9Ps)

16 the whole "vaccines cause autism" thing was thought up by some doctor who wanted lots of attention.

He admitted to making it all up, quite awhile ago.
http://is.gd/97MDF6

Posted by: HR needs donuts at February 02, 2015 05:23 PM (ZKzrr)

17 I'm watching this measels thing.... we just might have a shot at a comeback baby!

Posted by: Polio at February 02, 2015 05:24 PM (84SRe)

18 All of us down at the Brattleboro Women's Reproductive Health Choice Clinic think President Obama should make all those players pay a fine for fighting during that "Stooped" Football Game and send the money to help homeless gay and lesbian Children. This would be the right thing to do to remedy this problem created by Bush and Chainey. Bush lied and the children suffer !!!!!!!!!!

Posted by: Mary Clogginstien From Brattleboro, VT at February 02, 2015 05:24 PM (Sd++4)

19 Uh, being anti vaccination is not a partisan issue. At all. Almost identical numbers of dems and republicans say they're against vaccinations, and indies have even higher numbers.

This is just stupid.

Posted by: Lauren at February 02, 2015 05:24 PM (MYCIw)

20 dude, what about me?

come on man, I need some respect

Posted by: Smallpox at February 02, 2015 05:24 PM (W6iIX)

21 If we could get rid of public schools, then this debate becomes less important?

Posted by: Jean at February 02, 2015 05:25 PM (ztOda)

22 Hey! That's Citizen Paranoid Paleocon, if you please.

Posted by: An offended paranoid paleocon at February 02, 2015 05:25 PM (/GgDU)

23 Yea, no.

Posted by: DaveA at February 02, 2015 05:25 PM (DL2i+)

24 I'm just glad all of those dreamers were de-wormed and have their shots.

Posted by: Garrett at February 02, 2015 05:26 PM (lq9ci)

25 13 Posted by: Y-Not at February 02, 2015 05:23 PM (9BRsg)

It's conventional wisdom...

which is sometimes not too wise...

There's plenty of Donkey party who hate vaccines as well...usually the richer strata....

b/c Mom Nature spares those "smart" enough to be wealthy.

Posted by: Sven S Blade a.k.a. El Assassin@sven10077 at February 02, 2015 05:26 PM (/4AZU)

26 But it's absolutely immaterial whether or not I approve of such people's anti-vaccination beliefs. Until we are faced with a public heath crisis so grave that it demands we begin stripping away people's freedoms, they are entitled to believe these things, and act accordingly.
---

I think this is a naive statement. Do we have to have another polio epidemic in order to act or is it sufficient to have gone through that (or measles) once and know how to prevent such a terrible thing in the future?

I also cannot tell if you are saying that public schools should not be allowed to require vaccinations.

Posted by: Y-not at February 02, 2015 05:26 PM (9BRsg)

27 I fingered a intern at Brattleboro Women's Reproductive Health Choice Clinic... ONCE!

Posted by: Bill Clinton at February 02, 2015 05:26 PM (84SRe)

28
Yessssss.

Posted by: HRH The Queen of the Space Lizards

Posted by: Laurie David's Cervix at February 02, 2015 05:26 PM (kdS6q)

29
If we could get rid of public schools, then this debate becomes less important?

Lots of public spaces where immunocompromised people go and can be exposed--doctors offices, grocery stores, Disneyland...

Posted by: HR needs donuts at February 02, 2015 05:26 PM (ZKzrr)

30 This being the media gotcha game. Not this post.

Posted by: Lauren at February 02, 2015 05:26 PM (MYCIw)

31 Posted by: Polio at February 02, 2015 05:24 PM (84SRe)

brother, we are with you

Posted by: taliban vaccination team assassins at February 02, 2015 05:26 PM (W6iIX)

32 24
I'm just glad all of those dreamers were de-wormed and have their shots.

Yep.

Posted by: Jane D'oh at February 02, 2015 05:27 PM (FsuaD)

33 The HPV vaccine is a case in point. There are plenty of parents who are unsure if the risks are worth the rewards in taking a "new" vaccine.

The only real answer to this problem is a government that doesn't use ST for political ends, EVER. That would be very difficult to say about the current master race.

Posted by: pep at February 02, 2015 05:27 PM (4nR9/)

34 19 Posted by: Lauren at February 02, 2015 05:24 PM (MYCIw)

Correct...

Stupidity and anti-vacc is stupidity and in some cases ideological evil is bi-partisan...

Jenny McCarthy ain't a GOPet....

Posted by: Sven S Blade a.k.a. El Assassin@sven10077 at February 02, 2015 05:27 PM (/4AZU)

35 When I was a kid back in the 50s you had to be vaccinated for a number of diseases BEFORE you could enroll in school.

Nothing has changed since then other than not everyone requires that anymore. Ace I disagree with you on this. Forced vaccinations should be required because without them we can return to the 30s, 40s, and 50s when childhood diseases like polio etc were rampant. Those other examples you give are not the same thing.

Schools are, and have always been, a huge breeding pool for childhood diseases.

Posted by: Vic at February 02, 2015 05:27 PM (wlDny)

36 People should be free to be fatally stupid.
This does not apply to communicable diseases.

There are close calls, like mandatory quarantines, but vaccines like MMR are not close calls. If you refuse to vaccinate your kid against measles, your kid should be barred from all public accommodations. Pretty much like the Amish do voluntarily.

Posted by: wooga at February 02, 2015 05:28 PM (HoRFj)

37

The only freedom that matters is the Freedom to Be Wrong.
Does your freedom to be wrong trump the right to live of those who can't be vaccinated. Tits and one fraudulent study have now brought a dead plague back.

Posted by: DaveA at February 02, 2015 05:28 PM (DL2i+)

38 Everyone knows autism is caused by exposure to GMO wheat.

Posted by: Garrett at February 02, 2015 05:28 PM (lq9ci)

39 I was vaccinated as child against my will. Can I sue my parents? They also forced me to not shit in my pants the horror.

Posted by: Redshirt at February 02, 2015 05:28 PM (Ae09I)

40 Is there a different way to deliver the vaccine?

Like maybe through doughnuts?

Posted by: Chris Christie at February 02, 2015 05:28 PM (oFCZn)

41 "....a distressing number of GOP voters are against it, making this a politically difficult question."

Whoa....not sure about that.

My own experience is that it is the loony left that is anti-vaccination.

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at February 02, 2015 05:28 PM (Zu3d9)

42 I also love the implication that autism is worse than death.

Uh...

Posted by: Lauren at February 02, 2015 05:28 PM (MYCIw)

43 You know who else is against vaccinations? Backward Muslims in places such as my beloved country (Nigeria) where they started saying all of a sudden that they were a conspiracy of the West to... who knows, I don't remember.

The vaccine issue is also about the rights of others to be free of easily and previously eradicated communicable diseases.

Don't want to get HPV vaccine? Fine. HPV isn't "caught" by being in the same room with someone or simply touching him or her. But polio and measles? That's different.

Posted by: chique d'afrique (the artist formerly known as african chick) at February 02, 2015 05:29 PM (oa/c7)

44 35 Posted by: Vic at February 02, 2015 05:27 PM (wlDny)

Vic I am *not* mocking your age...

you're about 20 or so years older than me, my understanding is you guys saw living Polio victims a lot more commonly than my age group did...

I am *so* glad we are stupid enough to ignore the lessons we learned on immunology last century.

Posted by: Sven S Blade a.k.a. El Assassin@sven10077 at February 02, 2015 05:29 PM (/4AZU)

45 35 When I was a kid back in the 50s . . .

Posted by: Vic at February 02, 2015 05:27 PM (wlDny)

We're talking 1850's, right ?

Posted by: Iowa Bob at February 02, 2015 05:29 PM (tu3iY)

46 Finally getting the band back together. We're gonna party like it's 1349.

Posted by: The Black Death at February 02, 2015 05:29 PM (GuwT9)

47 You seem to have forgotten about me.

http://tinyurl.com/nl8rh7f

Posted by: Entero virus at February 02, 2015 05:29 PM (/GgDU)

48 BTW Ace, I have been tracking that measles outbreak in CA and AZ. It went from virtually zero to 100 and is rocketing up in multiple States. And all because we have vaccinated kids coming in from South of the border.

Posted by: Vic at February 02, 2015 05:30 PM (wlDny)

49 Crazy shit. I tried to talk Mary Jo into that water breathing vaccine and she got all weird and laughed at me. Well.... irony... that's all. Oh and my nephew... don't get me started...

Posted by: Worm riddled corpse of Ted Kennedy at February 02, 2015 05:30 PM (84SRe)

50 "My own experience is that it is the loony left that is anti-vaccination."

I wish it were true.
But no, I hear enough self identified conservatives blabbing about not getting vaccines.

This isn't like the chem trails debate.

It crosses all political lines.

Posted by: Village Idiot's Apprentice at February 02, 2015 05:30 PM (8Un8+)

51 This is the classic example of an issue where both sides have a rational argument. The state has the duty to adjudicate between the two conflicting points of view.

It is a conflict between public health and the duty of the state, and individual freedom and the responsibilities that result from risk taking.

If you choose to not immunize your children, the state has an obligation to protect the other citizens who might suffer as a result of your choice. The problem isn't that your child might contract the measles, rather the problem is some disinterested third party, a pregnant woman, might be exposed by your child's measles and her baby might then be born with a serious birth defect. Or it might be a senior citizen who gets what is called 'shingles'.

If you want the freedom to take risk, then you bear the liability for that decision. This liability question has already been addressed by the courts when people with aids were prosecuted for unprotected sex with unsuspecting partners.

Don't immunize your kids, then the state can prohibit your children from attending public school, and it is your responsibility to find some other means.

Posted by: Slow Fester, apprentice fry cook at February 02, 2015 05:30 PM (lMzso)

52 Ahh now we get to see who the douches in favor of forcing parents and children into medical procedures. Always good to know who the enemy is

Posted by: gman at February 02, 2015 05:30 PM (nPdsm)

53 Eh, I can't get too worked up about this issue right now. I'm pro vaccination for polio, smallpox, measles, mumps, but anti vaccination for the flu - partly because I do not trust the CDC and the government that backs them with it. Does that make me crazy? I guess.

As usual, this is a question best left for the states - not sure why any person running for federal office needs to opine on it.

I'm starting to think that every person running for federal office should just answer 95% of all questions as "this is better left to the states - now let's talk about repealing Obamacare."

Of course Christie is the governor - so very appropriate for him.

Posted by: SH at February 02, 2015 05:31 PM (gmeXX)

54 Don't want to get HPV vaccine? Fine. HPV isn't "caught" by being in the
same room with someone or simply touching him or her. But polio and
measles? That's different.

Good point.

Posted by: pep at February 02, 2015 05:31 PM (4nR9/)

55 The HPV vaccine is a case in point. There are plenty of parents who are unsure if the risks are worth the rewards in taking a "new" vaccine.

*************

I have herd of zero risks for that one

Posted by: Big Mike the steam shovel at February 02, 2015 05:31 PM (W6iIX)

56 There is only one correct answer:

You should vaccinate your children and yourself, nor should schools admit unvaccinated kids; however, as I am running for President - your medical choices and the policies of your schools are not enumerated Federal powers and are thus outside of my sphere of influence. Take it up with your State and Local government. Godspeed, next question.

Posted by: Jean at February 02, 2015 05:31 PM (ztOda)

57 It's like seening things in A Distant Mirror

Posted by: Barbara Tuchman at February 02, 2015 05:31 PM (/GgDU)

58 50 Posted by: Village Idiot's Apprentice at February 02, 2015 05:30 PM (8Un8+)

HPV tilts the GOP scales and we are engaging in a lot of "vacc" that seems silly cost/benefit but yeah plenty of derp on both sides of that ideological line.

Posted by: Sven S Blade a.k.a. El Assassin@sven10077 at February 02, 2015 05:31 PM (/4AZU)

59 dude, what about me?
come on man, I need some respect
Posted by: Smallpox

Everyone gets a blankie!
-BIA

Posted by: rickb223 at February 02, 2015 05:31 PM (tTRIg)

60 Ace: The only freedom that matters is the Freedom to Be Wrong.

*****

Sure. Now for the question. They have the freedom to be wrong. But are we obligated to risk our children for their freedom.

I say you don't want to vaccinate your kids? Fine. But you then have to home school them on your own.

You don't get to force your risky kids on mine, into a school they have to cohabit 6 hours a day.

Posted by: Taco Shack at February 02, 2015 05:31 PM (C+qQ0)

61 OT: I am way ahead of the curve. I gave up "throws like a girl" a long time ago. [After one of my kid's friends beaned me with a water balloon] Today I say "throws like President Obama."

Posted by: The Poster Formerly Known as Mr. Barky at February 02, 2015 05:31 PM (4KoRb)

62 Huh. Bob Beckel and The Five are talking about vaccinations now.

Posted by: Jane D'oh at February 02, 2015 05:32 PM (FsuaD)

63 This does not apply to communicable diseases.

----

I don't want to be forced to get the flu vaccine?

Posted by: SH at February 02, 2015 05:32 PM (gmeXX)

64 Ace,

Not mandating vaccinations is fine with me, as long as you don't mandate attendance at school.

But kids are forced to go to school in the company of kids whose parents have decided for others the level of risk they are exposed to.

That's wrong.

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at February 02, 2015 05:32 PM (Zu3d9)

65 And all because we have UNvaccinated kids coming in from South of the border.

Fixed

Posted by: Vic at February 02, 2015 05:32 PM (wlDny)

66 So, I can't own the guns I want but your stupid hippy ass can send you kid out like a time bomb 'cause you're a dumb ass that refuses to get even the most basic of scientific knowledge?

And your vote is as "sacred" as mine?

Posted by: RoyalOil at February 02, 2015 05:32 PM (5yHi1)

67
Alternate post title:

Here's Another Reason Why I Think You Should Hate Rand Paul As Much As I Do

Posted by: Soothsayer at February 02, 2015 05:33 PM (kgXbV)

68 The cra-cra is strong in him
The sad part is he's a damn doctor!!

Posted by: Navycopjoe at February 02, 2015 05:33 PM (QY6Dj)

69 All I know is, a gluten-free diet cured my son's autism!

It's true!

Posted by: Jenny McCarthy! Has New Brain Implants! They're Silicone! They Make Her Feel SPECIAL! at February 02, 2015 05:33 PM (DLu2s)

70 My sister got autism from a moose.

Posted by: Jorg Jorenson at February 02, 2015 05:34 PM (lq9ci)

71 HPV vaccine? I have an oil drum full of it if anyone's interested.

Posted by: Sandra Flook at February 02, 2015 05:34 PM (Dwehj)

72 Anti-vaxxing is mostly a left-wing thing, like organic food and veganism.

Posted by: Klown 2.0 at February 02, 2015 05:34 PM (5fSr7)

73 It's RFK jr who was the most prominent pusher of the Wakefield fraud, and he STILL (or last I read) won't accept that it was a fraudulent study. That asshole Jim Carrey was right along with him and Jenny McCarthy too.

Posted by: stace at February 02, 2015 05:34 PM (ImzkZ)

74 I've been vaccinated many times.

Posted by: Mr. Mooo Mooo at February 02, 2015 05:34 PM (UTVh8)

75 vaccineresistancemovement.org/

Posted by: Charlie Rangel at February 02, 2015 05:34 PM (e8kgV)

76 Heh. Gutfeld slamming Jenny McCarthy.

Posted by: Jane D'oh at February 02, 2015 05:34 PM (FsuaD)

77

Yet another leftist-created problem with an easy solution.

As stated above, let's just stop importing the fucking maladies, eh?

Or we can do it Your Way: force everyone to be vaccinated.

Posted by: Soothsayer at February 02, 2015 05:35 PM (kgXbV)

78 The flu vaccine is an interesting case, isn't it?

The flu kills far more people each year than the measles (maybe not before the vaccinations though? I don't know those numbers). Anyway, we don't make flu vaccination mandatory for anyone other than healthcare workers, and that's just company policy, not law.

Why? Is it just because the vaccine isn't terribly effective some years? The fact that it's a yearly shot? I'm sort of curious on the public health thinking here.

Posted by: Lauren at February 02, 2015 05:35 PM (MYCIw)

79 Don't bring up the HPV vac ever

it's bad luck

Posted by: Michelle Bachman at February 02, 2015 05:35 PM (W6iIX)

80 OT:

University of California students chant "Allahu Akbar" during anti-Israel vote

http://tinyurl.com/ndzdorx

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VGNNfz7ES7w

Posted by: The Political Hat at February 02, 2015 05:35 PM (0Ew3K)

81 A peck of dirt before you die

Posted by: Ben Franklin at February 02, 2015 05:36 PM (e8kgV)

82 So Mike Lee seems to be sinking and.........well let's face it, Rand couldn't hold it together forever.

Posted by: thathalfrican at February 02, 2015 05:36 PM (/gk1A)

83 42 I also love the implication that autism is worse than death.

Uh...

Posted by: Lauren at February 02, 2015 05:28 PM (MYCIw)

Well can we at least agree that racism is worse than death? Can we?

CAN WE?

Posted by: Crazy Eyed Fucktard at February 02, 2015 05:36 PM (oFCZn)

84 Two things. First, Rand is a doctor and I'm betting he could out-debate the issue with whatever nimrod leftist media-type they want to send into the ring with him, given the opportunity. Second, the real problem affecting public health is not all those unvaccinated tea partiers out there, but rather the hordes of unvaccinated illegals crossing the southern border.

Posted by: Random Thought Generator at February 02, 2015 05:36 PM (wLLbf)

85 44 you're about 20 or so years older than me, my
understanding is you guys saw living Polio victims a lot more commonly
than my age group did...

I am *so* glad we are stupid enough to ignore the lessons we learned on immunology last century.

Posted by: Sven S Blade a.k.a. El Assassin@sven10077 at February 02, 2015 05:29 PM (/4AZU)

I had a cousin with that. Watched him on his crutches and wheelchair. Died at an early age.

Posted by: Vic at February 02, 2015 05:36 PM (wlDny)

86 I'm going to take a secind mortgage on my house and gonling on Disposable Tractor Seats.

Posted by: Garrett at February 02, 2015 05:37 PM (lq9ci)

87 Measles vaccine is know to (rarely) cause ankylosing pan-encephalitis. At about the same rate that measles causes death. It's not made up, it a real thing.

Posted by: Danby at February 02, 2015 05:37 PM (anJM9)

88 heh

mumr is in the thread below

Posted by: Michelle Bachman at February 02, 2015 05:37 PM (W6iIX)

89 I used to like Rand Paul. But then I started thinking he was coming across as a slippery character. I'm pretty much done with him now. There's too much crazee stuffed deep down inside that only escapes occasionally.

And I was completely willing to give him a break despite having a father who is Luap Nor. We aren't all our parents. For me, it's not the crazee Luap genes. It's the big "L" Libertarian genes.

(No offense to libertarian-minded 'rons and 'ettes, I mean, citizen morons, which, by the way, is still sexist, cissexist, misogynistic, and hateful.)

Posted by: chique d'afrique (the artist formerly known as african chick) at February 02, 2015 05:37 PM (oa/c7)

90 Not sure I get what you're on about here, Ace.

Are you saying we should just trust the Obama Administration that what they're injecting into our children is helpful? Are you suggesting that we should trust Mr. If You Like Your Plan, You Can Keep Your Plan?

Why should we trust the Obama Administration? On what basis is there to trust any of these evil people? They're not just busybodies. They're actively evil, and nobody would put it past them to inject our children with poison.

I'm not letting Barack Obama anywhere near my kid with his needles.

Period.

If you don't like the risk this creates for your child, then get the fuck out of my country.

Posted by: someguy at February 02, 2015 05:37 PM (3z91g)

91 The flu vaccine is 90+% effective against last year's strains of flu

Posted by: I'm not a doctor or even an actor playing a doctor at February 02, 2015 05:37 PM (e8kgV)

92 I missed him?

I've always said that Rand has his father's genes.

Posted by: Carol at February 02, 2015 05:38 PM (sj3Ax)

93 A libertarian banged Ace's girlfriend several years ago and Ace is still a butthurt little bitch.

Posted by: sad face ace at February 02, 2015 05:38 PM (L6eip)

94 I guess people my age were damaged and we don't even know it. Thanks Senator Cuckoo Puffs

Posted by: Misanthropic Humanitarian at February 02, 2015 05:38 PM (hcfn1)

95 I've known several people that survived Polio. One was my Uncle who was one of the recipients of Sister Elizabeth Kenny's ground breaking treatments back in the 1930s. I'm pretty sure he would have chosen immunization over the pain he endured just to survive.

Posted by: Redshirt at February 02, 2015 05:39 PM (Ae09I)

96 Or it might be a senior citizen who gets what is called 'shingles'.

That's not how shingles works.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herpes_zoster

And it really hurts, like a 3rd degree burn hurts. If you had the chicken pox as a kid and are the right age for the the vaccine go get it.

Posted by: DaveA at February 02, 2015 05:39 PM (DL2i+)

97 78 Why? Is it just because the vaccine isn't terribly
effective some years? The fact that it's a yearly shot? I'm sort of
curious on the public health thinking here.

Posted by: Lauren at February 02, 2015 05:35 PM (MYCIw)

The flu vaccine gives me the flu. It is highly unreliable because there are so many different varieties of flu and they have to use guess and by-golly to figure out which one they will need a year in advance.

Posted by: Vic at February 02, 2015 05:39 PM (wlDny)

98 There are probably a lot of reasons to not vote for Paul, but there is nothing on his stance of vaccination that would cause me not to vote for him. I'm a little dubious of his claim about the harmful effects, but he is a doctor - so he has more credibility than Michele Bachman on it. I think he would have been better off sticking to his liberty argument.

Posted by: SH at February 02, 2015 05:39 PM (gmeXX)

99 Its the god given right of all americans to refudiate any needle he doesnt want near his body! "Public health concern" arguments are the same kind of arguments that were used to justify Obamacare!

Also, why is it so hard to believe that the CIA and other organizations, could make use of vaccination programs and that this could have unforseen side effects on your mental health??? The surveillance state is one step ahead of you guys!

Posted by: Jenny McAwfluffle at February 02, 2015 05:39 PM (0MNag)

100 Has Ron Paul really gotten rich off is paranoid newsletters?
That's a serious question. I'm curious what kind of income he had.

When the David Duke KKK controversy broke a while back, I was surprised to learn that Duke didn't attend the conference cause he'd been living in Europe for years.

That surprised me. Was he wealthy? Was he born rich? Did he get rich off donations despite being one of the most hated, reviled men in America who'd been driven from all polite society.

I figured there wasn't much money in being the face of white nationalism. Maybe I'm wrong. Farakkhan appears to have done well financially as the face of black nationalism.

I assume Rand did better, financially, as a doctor than as heir to the Paul newsletter goldmine. But I don't really know the #s involved.

Alex Jones seems to be doing pretty good. He really works it, though.

Posted by: Costanza Defense at February 02, 2015 05:39 PM (ZPrif)

101
DaveA at February 02, 2015 05:39 PM

Thanks for the correction.

Posted by: Slow Fester, apprentice fry cook at February 02, 2015 05:40 PM (lMzso)

102 mumr is in the thread below

The inertial navigation system in his spam machine must be on the fritz again.

Posted by: Sandra Flook at February 02, 2015 05:40 PM (Dwehj)

103 63 This does not apply to communicable diseases.
----
I don't want to be forced to get the flu vaccine?
Posted by: SH at February 02, 2015 05:32 PM (gmeXX)

I should have qualified "communicable diseases" more. Yes, the flu vaccine is a good counter example.

Posted by: wooga at February 02, 2015 05:41 PM (HoRFj)

104 Flu vaccines #s are weird.

My understanding is that the CDC combines the flu and pneumonia annual deaths into one # -- giving the impression that most pneumonia deaths are caused by the flu when they aren't.

I'm actually confused on the # of annual deaths from the flu. It's often stated as 36k. But I've read some very good takedowns of that # as bogus - one from NPR was good.

Posted by: Costanza Defense at February 02, 2015 05:42 PM (ZPrif)

105 Final nail in the coffin.

Rand's campaign must be stopped, just like Santorum and F**kabee's.

Posted by: The Political Hat at February 02, 2015 05:42 PM (0Ew3K)

106 72 Anti-vaxxing is mostly a left-wing thing, like organic food and veganism.
Posted by: Klown 2.0 at February 02, 2015 05:34 PM (5fSr7)

Anti-vapeing as well

Posted by: Misanthropic Humanitarian at February 02, 2015 05:42 PM (hcfn1)

107 Posted by: Vic at February 02, 2015 05:39 PM (wlDny)

It is actually quite reliable. It just isn't 99% effective like most other vaccines.

It is the most common serious communicable disease in the world, so even with an effectiveness of 30% or 50% (those are the rare, bad years), it has hugely positive public health benefits.

As for it giving you the flu.....probably not. You might just be unlucky and get a bad reaction.

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at February 02, 2015 05:43 PM (Zu3d9)

108 63 This does not apply to communicable diseases.
----
I don't want to be forced to get the flu vaccine?
Posted by: SH at February 02, 2015 05:32 PM (gmeXX)

I should have qualified "communicable diseases" more. Yes, the flu vaccine is a good counter example.

-----

I think all this shows is that the issue is probably more nuanced than people think. I don't really think this is an issue at all. Daniel Foster has had the best analysis on it that I have seen. Let's accept that this is the sort of gotcha game that the left will want to play. I'm not sure they caught anyone in a gotcha moment just yet.

Posted by: SH at February 02, 2015 05:43 PM (gmeXX)

109 88
heh

mumr is in the thread below

Posted by: Michelle Bachman at February 02, 2015 05:37 PM (W6iIX)

There's only one explanation: Tardisil.

Posted by: Jane D'oh at February 02, 2015 05:43 PM (FsuaD)

110
So Teh Ewok hated this movie. Gotcha.

Posted by: IllTemperedCur at February 02, 2015 05:44 PM (TIIx5)

111 Is there a vaccine for butthole warts? Asking for a friend.

Posted by: Chuck Johnson at February 02, 2015 05:45 PM (HoRFj)

112 Most of the anti-vaxxers that I know are left-wing.
I'd like to see some good data on the demographics of anti-vaxxers.

Posted by: Costanza Defense at February 02, 2015 05:45 PM (ZPrif)

113 Lol. Our son is hanging out here, and just showed me Key and Peele's latest from the Super Bowl.

Hilarious. He's sending me the link.

Posted by: Jane D'oh at February 02, 2015 05:45 PM (FsuaD)

114 Doesn't Rand have kids?

I wonder if they are vaccinated.

Posted by: @johntant at February 02, 2015 05:46 PM (UTVh8)

115
So...the summary of this movie review is....?

Posted by: lurkiestlurker at February 02, 2015 05:46 PM (k8xvx)

116 MSM Burning question: "Do you think vaccinations should be mandatory?"

MSM irrelevant question: "Do you think illegal immigrants should be encouraged to come to America and compete against Americans for jobs?"

Posted by: Ray Van Dune at February 02, 2015 05:46 PM (U+goV)

117 I had had hope for Rand Paul and was open to his candidacy, but every time he or his conspiracy-addled lunatic father open their mouths, I cringe more.

yeah, sadly

I had hope too. Then I find myself pulling away.

Scientology for Politicians

I do worry about the children being the pawns and possibly being inflicted or dying from something because of political ideology however. Or the new "science" ideology, versus real science.

Posted by: artisanal 'ette at February 02, 2015 05:46 PM (IXrOn)

118 This is the worst movie review I've EVER read since EVER!

Posted by: Worm riddled corpse of Hedda Hopper at February 02, 2015 05:46 PM (84SRe)

119 Fuck. Bring a peanut butter sandwich into a classroom and its a hate crime. Bring your uninocculated spawn into the same classroom and it is 'choice'.

Bullshit.

Posted by: se pa moron at February 02, 2015 05:46 PM (zxQ4h)

120 Test

Posted by: Taco Shack at February 02, 2015 05:46 PM (C+qQ0)

121 A spoonful of sugar helps the vaccine go down.

Posted by: The Great White Snark at February 02, 2015 05:46 PM (XUKZU)

122 A spoonful of sugar helps the vaccine go down.

Posted by: The Great White Snark at February 02, 2015 05:46 PM (XUKZU)

123 107 It is actually quite reliable. It just isn't 99% effective like most other vaccines.
---------------------------------------

Not for me, as I said it gave me the flu instead of preventing it.

Posted by: Vic at February 02, 2015 05:47 PM (wlDny)

124 But no, we are not yet anywhere near some kind of emergency. Anyone who takes a small uptick in measels cases -- I think in California it went from like 60 to 100, or something like that -- as a justification for forcing people to do things against their will is just looking for any pretext to strip people of their liberties, and needs to know that about themselves.

It's like you don't remember the OHMYGODEBOLA!!!!!!! panic you fucks were involved with just a short time ago.

Posted by: irony-o-meter at February 02, 2015 05:47 PM (bh4QC)

125 I wish all politically minded people would get this tattooed on the inside of their own eyeballs, so that they never fail to see the advisory when looking out into the world: The fact that a choice is good is no evidence that it should also be mandatory.

************

Thank you, ace. I'm really glad you said this.

I am decidedly NOT anti-vaccine. My MIL is actually an infection control expert and so I am well aware of vaccines, why and how they do what they do, risks, etc and so on. My children have recieved all available vaccines and boosters, excepting the flu shot which is a yearly crap shoot. They will continue to recieve their boosters until it is no longer necessary. I consider vaccines important and life saving.

That being said, I am disturbed by the number of regular people (LIVs) that I've come across who are claiming not vaccinating your children is child abuse and the kids should be taken away.

I am, personally, in what could very easily be considered an "out" group (and *is* most definitely considered such on the hard-left) because I homeschool my children. It's a mini-fad right now in some quarters to teach your own children, but overall we're in a small minority and I can foresee a day when it's so frowned upon that people clamor for forcing my family to attend public school.....or else. There is already a sub-group on the left that believes I am abusing my children and robbing society by keeping them out of public schools and would forcibly take my children if they had a chance.

So, I can sympathize with the anti-vax folks, even if I vehemently disagree with them. And frankly, I have yet to meet an anti-vax parent that wasn't refusing the vaccinations out of a genuine concern for their children. And, in fact, I can even see where people who do not believe vaccines are harmful could still have moral qualms about them. For instance, for people who are against abortion, they might find it morally objectionable to recieve a vaccination derived from aborted fetal tissue, and that is a genuine issue that has been discussed in some religious circles as of late (I'm also Catholic, so this has come up apparently so frequently that the Bishops have issued a formal statement that states it is not immoral to vaccinate your children, even if the vaccine if derived from aborted fetal tissue. The explanation, as I understand it, is it is similar to accepting an organ from a person who was murdered. You didn't murder them, you opposed the murder, you don't advocate for it, but it happened and you shouldn't die from kidney failure or what not because of the circumstances that made the organ available).

I digress.

I firmly believe in vaccinations and seriously everyone *should* get their kids vaccinated. But I also agree with Ace that people should be allowed to be stupid and make the wrong choices. We need that freedom. So having said that, let the anti-vax folks be.

Posted by: Mandy P., lurking lurker who lurks at February 02, 2015 05:47 PM (KkVB6)

126 So...the summary of this movie review is....?

-
It's a werewolf flick. A mad scientist goes around injecting kids with werewolf juice turning them into werewolves.

Posted by: The Great White Snark at February 02, 2015 05:48 PM (XUKZU)

127 The problem with claiming the choice to vax or not is some kind of "freedom" is that your choice doesn't just affect you. You don't get MMR. Then you get measles...then you give it to a pregnant lady or a baby.

So, making vaccines mandatory is not an anti-libertarian position.

Its like saying "Well I can juggle hand grenades in a school if I want, its my right!"

Posted by: sexypig at February 02, 2015 05:48 PM (dZQh7)

128 Seriously why is no one asking the governor of CA?
It's their shifty rules that let this happen.

I can opt out there because I have feelz.

Posted by: tsrblke (Tablet) at February 02, 2015 05:48 PM (+p2Ga)

129 One thing to keep in mind is that polio and measles are human-only viruses i.e. there are no animal reservoirs for them to hide out in. So once the last case of these diseases has been treated/prevented, the viruses are gone forever. So there is a benefit to universal forced vaccination because it gets us closer and closer to ending these diseases once and for all. We were very close to killing off polio until the taliban and other jihadis decided that vaccinating was a tool of the west and un-islamic.

Posted by: Maetenloch at February 02, 2015 05:48 PM (pAlYe)

130 Doesn't Rand have kids?

I wonder if they are vaccinated.

----

I'm sure they are. I think his default mode is to always see things in term of liberty and freedom. That isn't necessarily a terrible trait.

Posted by: SH at February 02, 2015 05:48 PM (gmeXX)

131 124 Posted by: irony-o-meter at February 02, 2015 05:47 PM (bh4QC)

I think you need to recheck your Axelrod talking points champ...

THIS WEEK the GOP are the Jesus Freaks who don't care about kids' health not your little eye penciled chick...

do keep up

Posted by: Sven S Blade a.k.a. El Assassin@sven10077 at February 02, 2015 05:48 PM (/4AZU)

132 Is that you, Ron?

Posted by: Us F_cks at February 02, 2015 05:48 PM (Dwehj)

133 Best Headline of 2015 has just been won:

Truck Full of Frozen Chicken Collides with Truck Full of Bees, Bursts into Flames

Posted by: weft cut-loop at February 02, 2015 05:49 PM (PhCVa)

134
"Any time you give your government an inch, it will take a mile."

-- Shih Tzu

Posted by: Soothsayer at February 02, 2015 05:49 PM (kgXbV)

135 I thought the Autism link was found to be bogus..

Posted by: hello, it's Me Donna ....again at February 02, 2015 05:50 PM (Bn6aD)

136 What we need are tricorders so a place like Disney can scan everyone who enters for all known communicable diseases and keep all the sickies out.

That doesn't exist, though.

Posted by: Costanza Defense at February 02, 2015 05:51 PM (ZPrif)

137 I wonder if many of the anti vaccine people get tetanus shots. It doesn't get sold as a vaccine even though it is.

Posted by: Redshirt at February 02, 2015 05:51 PM (Ae09I)

138 OHMYGODEBOLA!.... heh.... I saw them open for Earth Wind and Fire in '79...

Posted by: Admiral Ackbars personal asst at February 02, 2015 05:51 PM (84SRe)

139 I got tho crazy idea. Really damned nuts ... but I'm going to throw it out anyway. Just humor me.

When talking about what immunizations should or should not be required - or any other myriad of questions regarding the role of government in the lives of citizens - let's take the decision OUT of the hands of the Federal and put it IN the hands of the States.

I know, totally damned nuts. But think, this way Tennessee's bad decision only kills their kids, and if New York gets it right, we can all copy.

Neat idea, eh ? I think I'll call it ... Federalism.

Posted by: ScoggDog at February 02, 2015 05:51 PM (qcr5D)

140 I will add to my post above, that I do lean towards disallowing un-vaccinated children from entering public school.

While I think the anti-vaxers should be free to be stupid, they should have to accept the responsibility for that choice. And part of that responsibility might mean you are solely responsible for your kid's education.

Posted by: Mandy P., lurking lurker who lurks at February 02, 2015 05:51 PM (KkVB6)

141 OT: Joe Biden is a deep cover CIA assassin.

"Maduro once again claimed US Vice-President Joe Biden is involved in an alleged conspiracy to topple him. 'The imperial power has entered into a despair phase ( . . .) They, in their madness, do not realize the strength (Venezuelan) people have, Maduro noted.

Posted by: The Great White Snark at February 02, 2015 05:52 PM (XUKZU)

142 You want a movie review? I'll give you one.

Predestination is a fucked up movie.

Posted by: Lauren at February 02, 2015 05:52 PM (MYCIw)

143 Son is here and as a Marine, got 7 anthrax vacs, 1 penicillin, 4 flu vacs, 1 yellow fever vac, 250 doxicillin (sp?) pills for malaria, TB shots (2).

That's all he can remember right now.

Posted by: Jane D'oh at February 02, 2015 05:53 PM (FsuaD)

144 But it's absolutely immaterial whether or not I approve of such people's anti-vaccination beliefs. Until we are faced with a public heath crisis so grave that it demands we begin stripping away people's freedoms, they are entitled to believe these things, and act accordingly.

Do you have a hard number for a grave crisis, or is it just a gut thing?

Posted by: toby928(C) at February 02, 2015 05:53 PM (rwI+c)

145 Here is how you answer that question so that they regret having asked it.

You tell them that vaccinations have always been an important part of our public health policy which is one reason we are supposed to have an orderly and controlled immigration process whereby we make sure everyone entering the country is up to date on all of their shots and we approve each entrant. Obviously, if millions of unvaccinated people are flooding over the border then you invite reintroducing diseases we have all but stamped out here.

If you are for open borders then you are anti-science and anti-public health policy --- which is what they wanted to paint the Republican candidates as being. I am sure a politician could couch it in better terms but that is the crux of the argument you would make.

Posted by: Thatch at February 02, 2015 05:53 PM (m/nBa)

146 Yes, you are right. I said to a friend years ago: it seems the only right you have nowadays is the right to be f-ed up. And she replied: it's a very important right.

Posted by: jocon307 at February 02, 2015 05:53 PM (8/8m5)

147 You want a movie review? I'll give you one.

Predestination is a fucked up movie.

Dammit. I've downloaded it but not yet watched it. Really bad, huh.

Posted by: toby928(C) at February 02, 2015 05:54 PM (rwI+c)

148 He just added small pox vac.

Posted by: Jane D'oh at February 02, 2015 05:54 PM (FsuaD)

149 Of course, this measles outbreak occurred at a theme park, not a school.

Banning them from school doesn't help that much when they aren't banned from every place kids like to play - every McDonalds playground and Chuck E Cheese and theme park and bouncy house.

Posted by: Costanza Defense at February 02, 2015 05:54 PM (ZPrif)

150 Neat idea, eh ? I think I'll call it ... Federalism.

-----

If I were a senator and asked about vaccination, my response would be "Go ask Governor {insert state Governor here}, vaccinations are not the business of the federal government, I'm more concerned with repealing Obamacare."

Posted by: SH at February 02, 2015 05:54 PM (gmeXX)

151 What difference at this point does it make!!!??? I got vaccinated for lard ass and canckles and even harpy voice..... AND THEY ALL FAILED!!!!

Posted by: Hillary at February 02, 2015 05:54 PM (84SRe)

152 I had kinda figured that after the Tardisil debacle that vaccination policy would be one of those subjects like rape-induced pregnancy, wherein any GOP politician worth their salt would have a smooth segue pre-memorized into an uncontroversial anodyne response, preferably on an entirely different subject.

Apparently I had figured wrong.

Posted by: torquewrench at February 02, 2015 05:54 PM (noWW6)

153 OT: Joe Biden is a deep cover CIA assassin.
Posted by: The Great White Snark

We're both double-aught spies.

Posted by: Jethro Bodine at February 02, 2015 05:54 PM (GuwT9)

154 ScoggDog at February 02, 2015 05:51 PM

Sure, leave immunization up to the states. Great Idea, only if you want to include in your travel papers your current state of inoculations. If you are crossing state lines from a state that does not require immunization, and the state you are trying to enter does require inoculations that state can then refuse entry and turn you back at the border.

Deal?

Posted by: Slow Fester, apprentice fry cook at February 02, 2015 05:54 PM (lMzso)

155 Maduro once again claimed US Vice-President Joe Biden is involved in an alleged conspiracy to topple him

Yes. I sent him an anonymous package of arsenic-laced crayons.

Posted by: Uncle Joe Biden at February 02, 2015 05:54 PM (Dwehj)

156 Polio would have joined the ranks of smallpox if not ffr some imams in Nigeria saying that the vaccines were just a ruse to sterilize their women. So it went from Nigeria to Arabia via the hajj and from there to other muslim countries. And it was so close to being gone forever.

Posted by: bergerbilder at February 02, 2015 05:55 PM (2o6Wj)

157 We were very close to killing off polio until the taliban and other jihadis decided that vaccinating was a tool of the west and un-islamic.

Ditto measles. Jenny's just cuter than most Taliban.

Posted by: DaveA at February 02, 2015 05:55 PM (DL2i+)

158 But I also agree with Ace that people should be allowed to be stupid and make the wrong choices.

Which is great when the only person whose life you can ruin is your own, but society has some interest in keeping you from ruining the life of random strangers.
http://is.gd/PmWaxM

Posted by: HR needs donuts at February 02, 2015 05:55 PM (ZKzrr)

159 Not for me, as I said it gave me the flu instead of preventing it.

Posted by: Vic at February 02, 2015 05:47 PM (wlDny)

Dead virus vaccines can't give you the disease.
Several possibilities:
1) You got the flu before immunity kicked in (which happens a lot since there's about a 2 week lag in there)
2) You got a flu not included in the vaccine (it's a guessing game, so this is common too)
3) You got something flu like, but not actually the flu (enterovirus, cold, both at once.)

Posted by: tsrblke (Tablet) at February 02, 2015 05:55 PM (+p2Ga)

160 All of us down at the Brattleboro Women's Reproductive Health Choice Clinic think President Obama should tell all of those preverted Republi-Sex_Maniacs to stay out of a women's womb. This left better to people like Hillary Cliton, Rosie O'Donnell and Micheale oBAMA. Please shut up and sit down before you idiots ruin the women's right to CHEWSE" !!!!!!

Posted by: Mary Clogginstien From Brattleboro, VT at February 02, 2015 05:56 PM (Sd++4)

161 it gave me the flu instead of preventing it.

Posted by: Vic at February 02, 2015 05:47 PM (wlDny)

No, it didn't. The virus is killed in formalin. It is impossible.

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at February 02, 2015 05:56 PM (Zu3d9)

162 Toby, it's not bad. It's just...well it's just not what I was expecting. I'd watch it, but just be prepared for something disturbing in a way you probably wouldn't expect.

Posted by: Lauren at February 02, 2015 05:56 PM (MYCIw)

163 The anti vaccine people are crunchy hippie scum, not Republican voters.

Posted by: Mr. Moo Moo at February 02, 2015 05:57 PM (deSK3)

164 >>>> OT: Joe Biden is a deep cover CIA assassin.
Posted by: The Great White Snark

mostly use a double barrel shotgun

Posted by: Joe Biden, War Chief at February 02, 2015 05:57 PM (W6iIX)

165 Your comment would lead on to believe that a good number of those against vaccinations are Conservatives. I somewhat disagree. So many are young under 40's and are very liberal.

Posted by: lynn at February 02, 2015 05:57 PM (AjrEe)

166 Reason 507 Rand Paul is a danger to the Republican Party and America

Posted by: Nevergiveup at February 02, 2015 05:57 PM (nzKvP)

167
135 I thought the Autism link was found to be bogus..
Posted by: hello, it's Me Donna ....again at February 02, 2015 05:50 PM (Bn6aD)

It is. That doesn't mean that they aren't still pushing it.

Posted by: Buzzion at February 02, 2015 05:57 PM (z/Ubi)

168 Maet; there is a huge reservoir of measles south of the border. That is why we have the recent uptick in CA and AZ.

Posted by: Vic at February 02, 2015 05:57 PM (wlDny)

169 Sure, leave immunization up to the states. Great Idea, only if you want to include in your travel papers your current state of inoculations. If you are crossing state lines from a state that does not require immunization, and the state you are trying to enter does require inoculations that state can then refuse entry and turn you back at the border.

Deal?

-----

I got news for you - it is currently up to the states.

Posted by: SH at February 02, 2015 05:57 PM (gmeXX)

170 be prepared for something disturbing in a way you probably wouldn't expect.

*Now* I'm intrigued.

Posted by: toby928(C) at February 02, 2015 05:57 PM (rwI+c)

171 I'm holding my judgment before believing a Zeke Miller quote that Rand Paul went full Tardasil.

Posted by: gm at February 02, 2015 05:58 PM (/kBoL)

172 Banning them from school

Was effectively banning them from everywhere because schooling is required and school was the easiest place to get it.

Posted by: DaveA at February 02, 2015 05:58 PM (DL2i+)

173 148 He just added small pox vac.
Posted by: Jane D'oh at February 02, 2015 05:54 PM (FsuaD)

And note that smallpox was eradicated in 1979 due to a worldwide vaccination campaign.

The only reason the military still inoculates soldiers is because of concerns that some countries may weaponized versions of smallpox somewhere deep in their bioweapons labs which could be deployed.

Posted by: Maetenloch at February 02, 2015 05:58 PM (pAlYe)

174 Yeah, dead vaccines don't give you the flu.

If you got the flu after getting the vaccine it's probably you just got the flu about the same time -- possible by visiting the pharmacy or doctor's office to get the flu shot, and coming into contact with someone contagious.

Posted by: Costanza Defense at February 02, 2015 05:58 PM (ZPrif)

175 Jethro.... not aughts...... naughts..... double-naught spy..

Posted by: Jane Hathaway at February 02, 2015 05:58 PM (84SRe)

176 161 No, it didn't. The virus is killed in formalin. It is impossible.

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at February 02, 2015 05:56 PM (Zu3d9)

Well I sure as hell came down with the flue after getting it. Or maybe it was a damn bad "flu-like" cold that was indistinguishable from the flu.

Posted by: Vic at February 02, 2015 05:59 PM (wlDny)

177 I got news for you - it is currently up to the states.
Posted by: SH at February 02, 2015 05:57 PM

Then what is your complaint? You have what you wanted?

Posted by: Slow Fester, apprentice fry cook at February 02, 2015 05:59 PM (lMzso)

178 "We were very close to killing off polio until the taliban and other jihadis decided that vaccinating was a tool of the west and un-islamic."

Didn't help that the secret squirrels at Langley decided that inserting intelligence officers under cover into the groups performing the vaccinations in places like rural Goatfuckistan would be a great way to covertly gather HUMINT.

"Now stick out your arm. This won't hurt a bit. Just a moment now. Say, while we're waiting, you wouldn't happen to have seen Osama bin Laden anywhere around here, would you?"

Not only did this fail to produce any actionable intelligence, but when the cover of those officers inevitably got blown, the jihadi propaganda line about vaccination being a Western plot suddenly started to sound prescient to a lot of the locals.

Posted by: torquewrench at February 02, 2015 05:59 PM (noWW6)

179
Predestination is a fucked up movie.

Dammit. I've downloaded it but not yet watched it. Really bad, huh.

I mentioned that movie several times two months ago and nobody acknowledged.

So I'm gonna spoil it since no one pays attention to my comments...

Posted by: Soothsayer at February 02, 2015 05:59 PM (kgXbV)

180 @163 - I think they are *mostly* New Agey sorts, mostly they're just not too bright and looking for easy answers to hard questions. But there are others that fit that mold who are not the yoga-and-chai-tea crowd.

Posted by: JEM at February 02, 2015 05:59 PM (o+SC1)

181 He just added small pox vac.

I didn't know you can even get that since it's extinction in the wild.. Anti-bioweapon I guess.

Posted by: toby928(C) at February 02, 2015 05:59 PM (rwI+c)

182 165 Your comment would lead on to believe that a good number of those against vaccinations are Conservatives. I somewhat disagree. So many are young under 40's and are very liberal.
Posted by: lynn at February 02, 2015 05:57 PM (AjrEe)

There are some though. Let's not forget that Michelle Bachman pulled the "I knew a woman who let her daughter get the gardisil vaccine and she turned into a retard" during the debates b

Posted by: Buzzion at February 02, 2015 06:00 PM (z/Ubi)

183 Thanks 154 ... hadn't got my daily rant in regarding self rule. Your comment will do nicely.

Once again, we see just how anti-Federalist many of you are. Self Rule is fine, as long as the result suits you. But let a State pick contrary to your wishes, and the whole deal is off and BRING IN THE FEDS.

Honestly, if this country goes belly up ... how long before some of you start trying to build a Theocracy ... or maybe just a Good Ole Boy Monarchy ?

I give it six months. Tops.

Posted by: ScoggDog at February 02, 2015 06:00 PM (qcr5D)

184 So I'm gonna spoil it since no one pays attention to my comments...

Mendoozzzzzzaaaaaa!

Posted by: toby928(C) at February 02, 2015 06:01 PM (rwI+c)

185 If this is a clever big for recognition of your comments, soothsayer, consider it a success.

Posted by: Lauren at February 02, 2015 06:01 PM (MYCIw)

186 Posted by: Jane Hathaway at February 02, 2015 05:58 PM

Howdy, Miss Jane! How 'bout a little pork knuckle?

Posted by: Jethro at February 02, 2015 06:01 PM (Dwehj)

187 168 Maet; there is a huge reservoir of measles south of the border. That is why we have the recent uptick in CA and AZ.
Posted by: Vic at February 02, 2015 05:57 PM (wlDny)

In humans. Not in animals. Once the last human gets measles, it's gone from Earth forever.

Posted by: Maetenloch at February 02, 2015 06:01 PM (pAlYe)

188 If I inject someone with sterile saline x% will come down with symptoms. And if you piss me off well that percentage is gonna sky rocket!

Posted by: Nevergiveup at February 02, 2015 06:01 PM (nzKvP)

189 Then what is your complaint? You have what you wanted?
Posted by: Slow Fester, apprentice fry cook at February 02, 2015 05:59 PM (lMzso)

---

I have no complaint. I'm not sure why this is an issue.

I was simply saying that if I were running for a federal office, I would simply state that this is an issue for the states. Something I think could apply to 95% of questions asked of federal office seekers.

Posted by: SH at February 02, 2015 06:01 PM (gmeXX)

190 The crunchy-cons perhaps are some on the Right opposed to vaccines.

Posted by: Costanza Defense at February 02, 2015 06:02 PM (ZPrif)

191 "If I inject someone with sterile saline x% will come down with symptoms."

You're not fooling any of us. We all know perfectly well that shit has dihydrogen monoxide in it. Injecting it directly into our veins!

Posted by: torquewrench at February 02, 2015 06:02 PM (noWW6)

192 Marin County California has the highest per capita amount of vaccine waivers for personal exemptions in the state. Its the same liberals that are for big government mandates and complete nanny state control that want to exempt their kids from vaccinations.

It is ideologically inconsistent and yet somehow the GOP is going to take the hit on this politically? Figures.

Posted by: california red at February 02, 2015 06:02 PM (UyEG4)

193 181
He just added small pox vac.

I didn't know you can even get that since it's extinction in the wild.. Anti-bioweapon I guess.

Posted by: toby928(C) at February 02, 2015 05:59 PM (rwI+c)

Yes. They were being deployed to A-stan.

Posted by: Jane D'oh at February 02, 2015 06:02 PM (FsuaD)

194 187 In humans. Not in animals. Once the last human gets measles, it's gone from Earth forever.

Posted by: Maetenloch at February 02, 2015 06:01 PM (pAlYe)

What difference does it make if those "humans" are flooding across the border with impunity?

Posted by: Vic at February 02, 2015 06:03 PM (wlDny)

195 Best Headline of 2015 has just been won:

>>Predestination is a fucked up movie.

Dammit. I've downloaded it but not yet watched it. Really bad, huh.

Posted by: toby928(C)

I've tried watching it twice; it's boring and a bit too impressed with itself. Comes off as a film school project with a heavy dose of SOCIAL JUSTICE WARRIOR.

Also, please heed the following:

Do not under any circumstance rent Everly. It is a flaming sack of shit. No redeeming value at all. Avoid, avoid, avoid.

Posted by: weft cut-loop at February 02, 2015 06:03 PM (PhCVa)

196 Ace: This is one of your best posts, bravo. A win for logic bigtime. Independents take notice!

Posted by: MoJoTee at February 02, 2015 06:03 PM (aR8Ih)

197 " jihadi propaganda line about vaccination being a Western plot suddenly started to sound prescient to a lot of the locals. "

Yeah, and it's not an isolate case of vaccines being used for evil. They've been used in forced sterilization programs in the 3rd world several times. It's really freaking evil, and pisses me off very much.

Hey, we need to vaccinate against deadly diseases, but wouldn't it be great if we can control the population too? /liberals.

Good job, assholes, now you've just turned an entire culture against vaccinations because of your eugenic douchebaggery.

Posted by: Lauren at February 02, 2015 06:03 PM (MYCIw)

198 ScoggDog at February 02, 2015 06:00 PM

Thank you for explaining to me that you have your beliefs and anything I might offer will not be persuasive.

I should know better by now.
Have a nice day.

Posted by: Slow Fester, apprentice fry cook at February 02, 2015 06:03 PM (lMzso)

199 I heard that vaccines cause Austrianism.
We don't need any more Hitlers!

Posted by: wooga at February 02, 2015 06:03 PM (HoRFj)

200 So, good news, the field is winnowing itself out. Huckabee has DQ'ed himself, Paul is working on it.

Posted by: blaster at February 02, 2015 06:04 PM (Rx8ML)

201 Why? Is it just because the vaccine isn't terribly effective some years? The fact that it's a yearly shot? I'm sort of curious on the public health thinking here.

@Lauren,

Like I said up thread, MIL is in infection control. The deal with the flu shot is that it really is a yearly crap shoot. They have no idea which strain will be prevalent each year, so they have to guess which one they think will be the main one circulating next year. So what they're giving out this year is a guess they made last year. The decision is made for purposes of mass production, ie they pick one and make a shit-ton of it so they can be ready for the next flu season. Some years they're right, some years they're not. And the flu virus mutates so quickly that immunity is very short term.

The other thing to consider is that even though the flu virus technically kills more people in raw numbers than a lot of other diseases, the actual percentage of people who contracted it and died is relatively minute. Whereas the death rates for other diseases is significantly higher. So, for example, even though less people will contract measles than the flu this year, a much smaller percentage of those affected by the flu will die from it than those who die from the measles.

Posted by: Mandy P., lurking lurker who lurks at February 02, 2015 06:04 PM (KkVB6)

202 The thing is, this is a wedge issue for the Left. The hippie, granola, anti-GMO crowd are the strongest anti-vaxxers.

Posted by: AmishDude at February 02, 2015 06:04 PM (L2xDv)

203 This is all a false flag operation.

We all know the real cause of retardation...

Posted by: Brigadier General Jack D. Ripper at February 02, 2015 06:05 PM (0Ew3K)

204 Screw the Democrat media's attack on Christie. They laugh because Christie is uncomfortable with government forcing people to vaccinate, but they fight to the death to import disease carrying kids from south of the border.

Posted by: adolfo_velasquez at February 02, 2015 06:05 PM (Z+7WE)

205 Rotary International has made it its goal to wipe out polio worldwide.

And then the muzztards tell the locals the vaccination is an evil western plot to sterilize the population.

And, just for good measure, they kill many of the doctors and nurses trying to vaccinate.

Posted by: Jane D'oh at February 02, 2015 06:05 PM (FsuaD)

206 Posted by: Vic at February 02, 2015 05:59 PM (wlDny)

Correlation does not imply causation.

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at February 02, 2015 06:05 PM (Zu3d9)

207 Horror and moral terror are your friends. If they are not, then they are enemies to be feared. They are truly enemies! I remember when I was with Special Forces... seems a thousand centuries ago. We went into a camp to inoculate some children. We left the camp after we had inoculated the children for polio, and this old man came running after us and he was crying. He couldn't see. We went back there, and they had come and hacked off every inoculated arm. There they were in a pile. A pile of little arms. And I remember... I... I... I cried, I wept like some grandmother. I wanted to tear my teeth out; I didn't know what I wanted to do! And I want to remember it. I never want to forget it... I never want to forget. And then I realized... like I was shot... like I was shot with a diamond... a diamond bullet right through my forehead. And I thought, my God... the genius of that! The genius! The will to do that! Perfect, genuine, complete, crystalline, pure.

Posted by: blaster at February 02, 2015 06:05 PM (Rx8ML)

208 I heard that vaccines cause Austrianism.

We don't need any more Hitlers!

You're right! U.S. Americans won't stand for it!

Posted by: Miss Teen America at February 02, 2015 06:05 PM (Dwehj)

209 Damn. Fox is covering this topic now.

Posted by: Jane D'oh at February 02, 2015 06:06 PM (FsuaD)

210 Posted by: Jane D'oh at February 02, 2015 06:05 PM (FsuaD)

And chop the vaccinated arms off the children.

But by all means....let's let these people into the country!

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at February 02, 2015 06:06 PM (Zu3d9)

211 the field is winnowing itself out. Huckabee has DQ'ed himself, Paul is working on it.

Posted by: blaster at February 02, 2015 06:04 PM (Rx8ML)

It's not work to a Paul, it comes naturally. Doing what comes naturally....

Posted by: Nevergiveup at February 02, 2015 06:06 PM (nzKvP)

212 163 The anti vaccine people are crunchy hippie scum, not Republican voters.
Posted by: Mr. Moo Moo at February 02, 2015 05:57 PM (deSK3)

If only it were so. Unfortunately there is a certain strain of conservatives who are anti-vaccine. They also tend to be highly skeptical of doctors and believe in natural cures but are otherwise orthodox conservatives. I know they exist because there are several in my extended family.

Posted by: Maetenloch at February 02, 2015 06:06 PM (pAlYe)

213 We need better flu viruses. There's promising research. We need to be able to manufacture in weeks, instead of months, so we can respond to which flu strain is dominant.

There's some promising "universal" flu vaccine research that could lead to a single vaccine that fights all know flu strains.

Posted by: Costanza Defense at February 02, 2015 06:06 PM (ZPrif)

214 The thing is, this is a wedge issue for the Left. The hippie, granola, anti-GMO crowd are the strongest anti-vaxxers.
Posted by: AmishDude at February 02, 2015 06:04 PM (L2xDv)

----

I think there is some paranoia on the right on another Akin moment happening. It may. Something to guard against for sure. Be prepared for these types of gotcha moments. But I'm not seeing it here.

Posted by: SH at February 02, 2015 06:07 PM (gmeXX)

215 The deal with the flu shot is that it really is a yearly crap shoot. They have no idea which strain will be prevalent each year, so they have to guess which one they think will be the main one circulating next year.

This year was a miss, just like, what, 8 years ago? I'm lucky to not be infected yet. Last time they missed I remembered the whole Pray-for-Death part that I had mercifully forgotten during the previous 10 years. I've been getting flu shots for almost 20 years and have had the flu once. Lots better than before.

Posted by: toby928(C) at February 02, 2015 06:07 PM (rwI+c)

216 As the Repubs and Dems have traded white voters, I think we might also be getting some more, uh, downscale whites who just aren't smart enough to think about this issue and get swayed by crazies on The View.

Posted by: Costanza Defense at February 02, 2015 06:08 PM (ZPrif)

217 Don't disagree with Rand's political position, but don't think his anti-vaxxer misinformation is helpful (unless he's got some verified specifics to support his claims, rather than anti-Science fraud akin to "global warming" fraud). Should that affect my vote for a politician? Seems like it is similar to the question of whether or not to vote for a guy who supports everything that I support politically but happens to be involved in a gay relationship.

Posted by: gm at February 02, 2015 06:08 PM (/kBoL)

218 Federalism means allowing states to occasionally be very intrusive. Federalism is not the same as libertarianism. See Tardisil, and the how the debate lines broke.

I'm all in favor of turning full oppressive vaccine power to the states, because what state is actually going to bow to Jenny McCarthy? The states would robustly vaccinate against MMR, and smaller shit would vary by state.

Posted by: wooga at February 02, 2015 06:09 PM (HoRFj)

219 In any case, I gave up on Rand Paul over a year ago. He started showing symptoms of his dad.

Posted by: Vic at February 02, 2015 06:09 PM (wlDny)

220 >>>216 As the Repubs and Dems have traded white voters, I think we might also be getting some more, uh, downscale whites who just aren't smart enough to think about this issue and get swayed by crazies on The View.
Posted by: Costanza Defense at February 02, 2015 06:08 PM (ZPrif)>>>

In order to win the white voters that Romney got to stay home in 2012 with his 47%er talk, the GOP has decided to jettison all of the voters that actually showed up for them in 2012. Seems like standard procedure for the GOP.

Posted by: gm at February 02, 2015 06:09 PM (/kBoL)

221 get swayed by crazies on The View.
Posted by: Costanza Defense at February 02, 2015 06:08 PM (ZPrif)

I hear they are canceling the View soon. Going to be a few crazies out of work

Posted by: Nevergiveup at February 02, 2015 06:10 PM (nzKvP)

222 There's a MUMR vaccination?

Posted by: Miss Teen America at February 02, 2015 06:10 PM (Dwehj)

223 Last year was the first time in ages I didn't get a flu shot.

And I got a horrible case of the flu.

Didn't get one this year, because every time I decided to go, I came down with a cold or sinusy thingy.

Posted by: Jane D'oh at February 02, 2015 06:10 PM (FsuaD)

224 Oh my. This thread is so full of wrong. I believe I will steer clear.

Posted by: Muldoon, a solid man at February 02, 2015 06:10 PM (NeFrd)

225 There's a MUMR vaccination?
Posted by: Miss Teen America at February 02, 2015 06:10 PM (Dwehj)

Tennesse Bourbon

Posted by: Nevergiveup at February 02, 2015 06:11 PM (nzKvP)

226 And yet the people screaming taht we need to force people to vaccinate their children (in order to protect everyone from an out-of-control pandemic brought on by knuckle-dragging, superstitious Jesus-freaks), are absolutely silent on the Obama administration's blatantly criminal dispersion of undocumented, disease-ridden and highly infectious illegals throughout the US.

This entire screech about vaccinations is a false flag to shift attention away from the fact that Obama & co. actions have literally killed American children, and the left desperately needs a scapegoat.

Posted by: Josh at February 02, 2015 06:11 PM (AUZJW)

227 there are several in my extended family.

Posted by: Maetenloch at February 02, 2015 06:06 PM (pAlYe)

Thanksgiving must be fun....or are they extended enough that they have their own?

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at February 02, 2015 06:11 PM (Zu3d9)

228 When I was in the Army flu shots were mandatory. The only time I would get sick was after the shot.

Posted by: blaster at February 02, 2015 06:11 PM (Rx8ML)

229 188 Nevergiveup I find your post Spurious and your science Pseudo

Posted by: Redshirt at February 02, 2015 06:11 PM (Ae09I)

230 >>>If only it were so. Unfortunately there is a certain strain of conservatives who are anti-vaccine. They also tend to be highly skeptical of doctors and believe in natural cures but are otherwise orthodox conservatives. I know they exist because there are several in my extended family.
Posted by: Maetenloch at February 02, 2015 06:06 PM (pAlYe)>>>

I had thought it was all of the anti-science hippie folks who believe in scientific frauds like global warming that were anti-vaxxers. Then saw polls on the issue and realized that a very large portion of the anti-vaxxers are Republicans! WTF?!?!

Posted by: gm at February 02, 2015 06:11 PM (/kBoL)

231 This entire screech about vaccinations is a false flag to shift attention away from the fact that Obama & co. actions have literally killed American children, and the left desperately needs a scapegoat.

This.

Posted by: toby928(C) at February 02, 2015 06:11 PM (rwI+c)

232 What difference does it make if those "humans" are flooding across the border with impunity?
Posted by: Vic at February 02, 2015 06:03 PM (wlDny)

Well this is an argument for required measles vaccination in order to attend to school since it stops all students from being future vectors of the disease regardless of where they came from.

And yes they are humans. Here illegally but human none the less.

Posted by: Maetenloch at February 02, 2015 06:12 PM (pAlYe)

233 I hear they are canceling the View soon. Going to be a few crazies out of work

And the bonbon industry will go right down the dumper.

Posted by: Miss Teen America at February 02, 2015 06:12 PM (Dwehj)

234
So the field narrows to Walker and Cruz.

Oooo-kay.

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at February 02, 2015 06:12 PM (CMkNk)

235 Don't disagree with Rand's political position, but don't think his anti-vaxxer misinformation is helpful (unless he's got some verified specifics to support his claims, rather than anti-Science fraud akin to "global warming" fraud).

----

I can agree on this. But if someone just asked me should the government force vaccinations on the public - my default answer would be similar to Paul's and Christie's. The idea that the government should be able to stick a needle in someone should be generally offensive. Now I'll accept the reality that the states have this power (and should), and I'll accept the reality that for the good of the populace, certain vacinnations should be mandatory (and I strongly agree that they should). But I will not accept a general statement that the state should make all vacinnations mandatory. Because not all diseases are the same.

Posted by: SH at February 02, 2015 06:12 PM (gmeXX)

236 "The fact that a choice is good is no evidence that it should also be mandatory. ... The only freedom that matters is the Freedom to Be Wrong. No other freedom matters one whit -- because if you're 'right' in the eyes of those in power, your freedom will never be challenged, and hence you have no need of any right to belief or right to speech."

My favorite thought of the day; sounds like something G.K. Chesterton would say.

Posted by: My Sisters' Brother at February 02, 2015 06:12 PM (sVz2O)

237 Thanksgiving must be fun....or are they extended enough that they have their own?

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at February 02, 2015 06:11 PM (Zu3d9)

We do Thanksgiving in our house every year. We're able to weed out the progs, libs, and other crazies.

Now, Christmas, on the other hand, has to be spent at Lib Central, in ATL. Alcohol is my friend every year.

Posted by: Jane D'oh at February 02, 2015 06:13 PM (FsuaD)

238 a single vaccine that fights all know flu strains.

Posted by: Costanza Defense at February 02, 2015 06:06 PM (ZPrif)

I read about that a few years ago. They thought they had identified a common antigen among all known strains.

But I haven't heard anything since.....

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at February 02, 2015 06:13 PM (Zu3d9)

239 This is gonna be a long 2 years.

Posted by: Nevergiveup at February 02, 2015 06:13 PM (nzKvP)

240 So the field narrows to Walker and Cruz.

Oooo-kay.

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at February 02, 2015 06:12 PM (CMkNk)

And Perry and Jindal and Bush and Christie and, um, Pataki.

Posted by: blaster at February 02, 2015 06:14 PM (Rx8ML)

241 Pneumonia vaccine is highly recommended for ppl over a certain age, forget what.

Posted by: Costanza Defense at February 02, 2015 06:15 PM (ZPrif)

242 239 Posted by: Nevergiveup at February 02, 2015 06:13 PM (nzKvP)

You do notice no one is asking Hillary! if the sluts at Orgy Island are up on their Vaccinations....

yeah fuck the media.

Posted by: Sven S Blade a.k.a. El Assassin@sven10077 at February 02, 2015 06:15 PM (/4AZU)

243 233
I hear they are canceling the View soon. Going to be a few crazies out of work

At least "conservative Republican" Nicole Wallace will still have her gig on Morning Joe.

I have a cat that's more conservative than that twit. And cat owners know that most cats are liberal.

Posted by: Jane D'oh at February 02, 2015 06:15 PM (FsuaD)

244 All of us down at the Brattleboro Women's Reproductive Health Choice Clinicwant to wishPresident Obama a "Happy Ground Hogs Day". My its shadow be in your favor.

Posted by: Mary Clogginstien From Brattleboro, VT at February 02, 2015 06:16 PM (Sd++4)

245 Once the last human gets measles, it's gone from Earth forever.

Posted by: Maetenloch at February 02, 2015 06:01 PM (pAlYe)

All the more reason for universal vaccination.

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at February 02, 2015 06:16 PM (Zu3d9)

246 "Rand's just his dad with a little bit of an internal editor." And worse hair.

Posted by: Ssimoson4848 at February 02, 2015 06:16 PM (r1du+)

247 My husband's cousins are all antivac conservatives. I think for these types of people it comes from a distrust in authority in general. I understand that impulse, but I vaccinate my kids because I fear diphtheria far more than I fear the government.

I feel uncomfortable with the fact that my youngest has only had one mmr shot since they don't give the second til 4. I'm wondering if they'll change that time line in response to so many young kids being victims of this outbreak.

Posted by: Lauren at February 02, 2015 06:16 PM (MYCIw)

248 "In any case, I gave up on Rand Paul over a year ago. He started showing symptoms of his dad."

Luap Nard lost me when he started posing for buddy photos with Al Sharpton, and talking about how Republicans need to to drop the push for Voter ID because "it's offending people".

Ummmmmmmmmmmmmmm no.

Posted by: torquewrench at February 02, 2015 06:16 PM (noWW6)

249 >>>238 a single vaccine that fights all know flu strains.

Posted by: Costanza Defense at February 02, 2015 06:06 PM (ZPrif)

I read about that a few years ago. They thought they had identified a common antigen among all known strains.

But I haven't heard anything since.....
Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at February 02, 2015 06:13 PM (Zu3d9)>>>

Yeah, well they did a shit job with the flu vaccine this year, so it's either still in the works or was a miserable failure.

Posted by: gm at February 02, 2015 06:16 PM (/kBoL)

250 227 there are several in my extended family.
Posted by: Maetenloch at February 02, 2015 06:06 PM (pAlYe)
Thanksgiving must be fun....or are they extended enough that they have their own?
Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at February 02, 2015 06:11 PM (Zu3d9)

Well they're nice people and don't make a big deal of it and really how often does vaccination and the medical-industrial complex come up at family get-togethers anyway? :-)

Posted by: Maetenloch at February 02, 2015 06:16 PM (pAlYe)

251 Not for me, as I said it gave me the flu instead of preventing it.

Posted by: Vic at February 02, 2015 05:47 PM (wlDny)

It's still in development here I think, but IIRC it's not going well.

Posted by: tsrblke (Tablet) at February 02, 2015 06:17 PM (+p2Ga)

252 there are several in my extended family.

Posted by: Maetenloch at February 02, 2015 06:06 PM (pAlYe)

Yeah, my dad, an otherwise rational person, thinks that gas prices are a conspiracy whenever they go up.

Posted by: AmishDude at February 02, 2015 06:17 PM (L2xDv)

253 After working in public health for years just one thing: get the fucking vaccine. We force refugees to receive the full across the board immunizations while illegals flood across our borders.
I might be on the minority side here but your right to not get the measles vaccine does NOT supersede my right to live. As someone with a chronic disease which suppresses the immune system I'm just a teeny bit concerned.
God help us please because people are incredibly stupid and naive.

Oh and Jenny McCarthy? You are a twat-waffle and should be banished to Measles Island.

Posted by: mpfs at February 02, 2015 06:18 PM (si/E8)

254 250 Posted by: Maetenloch at February 02, 2015 06:16 PM (pAlYe)

Well her son is the Military-Industrial Complex to the hippies in her clan...

"just saying"...

God bless and happy holidays to you both.

Posted by: Sven S Blade a.k.a. El Assassin@sven10077 at February 02, 2015 06:18 PM (/4AZU)

255 241
Pneumonia vaccine is highly recommended for ppl over a certain age, forget what.

Posted by: Costanza Defense at February 02, 2015 06:15 PM (ZPrif)

I get a pneumonia vaccine regularly. I had Valley Fever as a child, the very week my dad was retiring from the Air Force. I nearly died.

I've had pneumonia about five times. Finally began getting the vaccine regularly.

Our son had pneumonia as a child, and later during boot camp. It seems once you've had it, you're very susceptible to getting it again.

Posted by: Jane D'oh at February 02, 2015 06:18 PM (FsuaD)

256 If it makes you feel better, the State of Texas, at our expense, vaccinated all the kids that were held in the holding centers earlier this year.

Not that that does much for the ones still crossing, or the ones crossing in California, but hey we tried.

Posted by: Lauren at February 02, 2015 06:18 PM (MYCIw)

257 Yeah, I have to wonder if the new focus on vaccinations is an attempt to shift blame for the supposed rise in infectious diseases away from shipping illegal immigrants across the United States.

Posted by: Stephen Price Blair at February 02, 2015 06:18 PM (J0IP0)

258 Good thing we don't need pesky laws anymore.

VentureBeat @VentureBeat 3m3 minutes ago
In a major policy shift, FCC will regulate Internet as a public utility (report) http://wp.me/p5hvhT-6Wlr by @thesullivan

Posted by: Costanza Defense at February 02, 2015 06:19 PM (ZPrif)

259 Oh and Jenny McCarthy? You are a twat-waffle and should be banished to Measles Island.

Posted by: mpfs at February 02, 2015 06:18 PM (si/E

But first....

Posted by: blaster at February 02, 2015 06:19 PM (Rx8ML)

260 I no longer give a shit when Republicans get their heads handed to them on TV by biased pro-libDem reporters.

Until and unless Republicans grow a pair collectively and individually to the point where they can easily stop such gotcha interviews in their tracks LIVE ON THE AIR, and toss the barbed questions right back into the lap of the Demo operative...er, reporter, doing the interview, i longer give any thought to damage the GOP's inability to communicate their way out of a wet paper bag affects their electoral chances.

Posted by: md at February 02, 2015 06:19 PM (uKJIC)

261 I had had hope for Rand Paul and was open to his candidacy, but every time he or his conspiracy-addled lunatic father open their mouths, I cringe more.

^^^^This

Posted by: Hurricane LaFawnduh at February 02, 2015 06:19 PM (HBAcW)

262 If it makes you feel better, the State of Texas, at our expense, vaccinated all the kids that were held in the holding centers earlier this year.

----

Did we give them Tardasil too?

Posted by: SH at February 02, 2015 06:19 PM (gmeXX)

263 How we've come full circle...

As a young kid (born in 1957), there weren't vaccines for measles, German measles, mumps, or chickenpox. The old-fashioned solution was simple: expose your kid to them, so they'd catch it and "get it over with." I've had all four. The conventional wisdom was that once you have your turn, you're immune for life.

(A few years later, a girl in my neighborhood came down with something called "mono." I was sent over to play Parcheesi with her for four hours one evening, apparently in hopes that I'd be immunized the same way; never did catch that one, but that was another story.)

Posted by: Keith Arnold at February 02, 2015 06:19 PM (iIzG7)

264 My self prescribed vaccines against giving up on life (alcohol and tobacco) are way more dangerous than these others being discussed. Something eventually will kill you make sure it was worth doing.

Posted by: Redshirt at February 02, 2015 06:20 PM (Ae09I)

265 I no longer give a shit when Republicans get their heads handed to them on TV by biased pro-libDem reporters.

----

Did I miss something? Who got their head handed to them on this issue?

Posted by: SH at February 02, 2015 06:20 PM (gmeXX)

266 "Did we give them Tardasil too?"

Haha who knows. I can just hear the debates now "Gov. Perry, why did you force Tardasil on these vulnerable teenage girls!?"

Posted by: Lauren at February 02, 2015 06:20 PM (MYCIw)

267 A certain strain of conservatives...

I'm not anti-science or anti-vaccines. But using liquid mercury... I wear contacts. I depend on solutions to keep everything sterile. One day my solution is fine, a week later I'm exhibiting symptoms of Aspergers. I fortunately have years of psych education in my background and figured out pretty quickly what the hell was going on.

You think they're still using liquid mercury in vaccines?

Quietly abandoned -- without one lawsuit.
Fucking amazing, that.

Posted by: se pa moron at February 02, 2015 06:20 PM (zxQ4h)

268 >>>Luap Nard lost me when he started posing for buddy photos with Al Sharpton, and talking about how Republicans need to to drop the push for Voter ID because "it's offending people".

Ummmmmmmmmmmmmmm no.
Posted by: torquewrench at February 02, 2015 06:16 PM (noWW6)>>>

Good to know what you find more important than credibly supporting shrinking the federal government (unlike pretending to want to shrink the growth of the federal government like most GOP pols do): posing for a picture with Al Sharpton and not wanting to talk about voter ID laws. Sweet Jesus. With such feckless "conservatives," it's no wonder that this country is doomed.

Posted by: gm at February 02, 2015 06:20 PM (/kBoL)

269 265 Posted by: SH at February 02, 2015 06:20 PM (gmeXX)

Chrispy Chreme, and Luap Darn are both "explaining their positions"...

if you're having to go back over the newsies' horsefuckery you got rolled.

Posted by: Sven S Blade a.k.a. El Assassin@sven10077 at February 02, 2015 06:21 PM (/4AZU)

270 I'm okay with injecting my precious angel's tits, lips, and ass with botox and saline, but to vaccinate against a childhood disease? Are you out of your mind?

Posted by: Fritz at February 02, 2015 06:21 PM (UzPAd)

271 Neal Dewing @Neal_Dewing 13m 13 minutes ago
Can't believe people are even debating this

The stunning, life-saving, success of modern vaccination
http://t.co/yf98W8odYA
https://pbs.tw___.com/media/B84CBFNIEAA3mC9.jpg:large

Posted by: Costanza Defense at February 02, 2015 06:22 PM (ZPrif)

272 I went to a chicken pox party. I got a really mild case so it worked well for me, I guess. My poor friend at the same party got them down her throat and...in other bad places, and ended up hospitalized.

I will take the vaccine! Although, I do worry about it wearing off and my kids being vulnerable in 20 years when the next generation decides to not vaccinate their kids for chicken pox because of some pseudo science bs.

Posted by: Lauren at February 02, 2015 06:22 PM (MYCIw)

273 Two points here. First:

But no, we are not yet anywhere near some kind of emergency. Anyone who takes a small uptick in measels cases -- I think in California it went from like 60 to 100, or something like that -- as a justification for forcing people to do things against their will is just looking for any pretext to strip people of their liberties, and needs to know that about themselves.

The problem here is that there are literal thresholds of immunity for the "herd" to remain protected. The more people who decide to go anti-vax, the bigger a problem it becomes for the rest of us. If we need 90%+ of the population to be vaccinated for the protection to stay effective, then we need might as well tell everyone to be vaccinated.

Two:

The only freedom that matters is the Freedom to Be Wrong.

I would agree with you on this, if it weren't for the fact that people aren't gambling with their own lives on this matter, they're gambling with the lives of their children. That seems like it merits a higher level of scrutiny.

Posted by: Hal at February 02, 2015 06:22 PM (nzmxZ)

274 Chrispy Chreme, and Luap Darn are both "explaining their positions"...

if you're having to go back over the newsies' horsefuckery you got rolled.

----

Fair point, but I would hardly say either got their head handed to them.

Posted by: SH at February 02, 2015 06:22 PM (gmeXX)

275 If you don't support Rand/Ron, you're worse than Hitler.

Posted by: Squirrel at February 02, 2015 06:24 PM (1pMFa)

276 Chrispy Chreme, and Luap Darn are both "explaining their positions"...

if you're having to go back over the newsies' horsefuckery you got rolled.

----

Fair point, but I would hardly say either got their head handed to them.

----

This isn't a repeat of Akin. There is the obvious double standard, but that is nothing new.

Posted by: SH at February 02, 2015 06:24 PM (gmeXX)

277 I like Rand Paul, but it's hard to spin his comments in any way to make this a positive for him. Which, not unexpectedly, the Paulbots are already doing. Oh well, just another name off my 2016 list.

Vaccines are a third-rail issue, nothing good can come out of
entering a discussion on it and supporting or even hinting at sympathy for anti-vaxxers.

Posted by: MidGeorgian at February 02, 2015 06:25 PM (d9kFb)

278 They came up with vaccines against measles, German measles, mumps, chickenpox, that weren't available when I was a kid. There've been vaccines against polio, pertussis, diphtheria, and tetanus - those I got. We've nearly eliminated those diseases through vaccinations.

Will one of you geniuses (genii?) hurry up and invent a vaccine to prevent prognaziism? I'll buy a dose for everyone in my town if it's effective.

Posted by: Keith Arnold at February 02, 2015 06:25 PM (iIzG7)

279 Jesus some topics bring in all kinds

Posted by: Nevergiveup at February 02, 2015 06:25 PM (nzKvP)

280 I always get sick to certain degree after a vaccination. But I realize that what I have is not the sickness contained in the vaccine, but just my body's immune system reacting to an antigen that has been introduced. The worst reaction I ever had was from a typhoid shot. Still better than typhoid, though.

Posted by: bergerbilder at February 02, 2015 06:26 PM (2o6Wj)

281 Obama and Hillary have both played with the anti-vaxxer stuff. There are anti-vaxxer are both sides, though I thought more on the Left -- especially the moneyed Left.

Posted by: Costanza Defense at February 02, 2015 06:27 PM (ZPrif)

282 it's a trap !!

Posted by: General Akbar at February 02, 2015 06:27 PM (W6iIX)

283 We can mandate childhood vaccines cause we can mandate them for school -- and school is itself mandated.

Much harder to make adult vaccines mandatory.

Posted by: Costanza Defense at February 02, 2015 06:28 PM (ZPrif)

284 Posted by: Nevergiveup at February 02, 2015 06:25 PM (nzKvP)

The vaccine industry is owned by the Jooos, who lure children to MD's offices for vaccinations and then harvest a certain number each year for matzoh for Passover.

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo...Anti-Semite at February 02, 2015 06:28 PM (Zu3d9)

285 As an aesthetic matter, I try not to let the local authorities dose me with fluorine ions any more than I can help it. It comes with chlorination, etc., and chlorine makes my stuff taste bad.

Posted by: outarange guy at February 02, 2015 06:28 PM (7Vvzu)

286 I have a friend who didn't vaccinate, and wound up getting autism from a hooker.

Posted by: Turd Ferguson at February 02, 2015 06:28 PM (VAsIq)

287 TL

R

Got to be the longest movie review, evah.
Didn't see "Sniper" in the title, what was it, "Taken 3"?

Posted by: Burnt Toast at February 02, 2015 06:29 PM (NaeCR)

288 It also seems to me that the only good argument in favor of forced vaccinations is that it's "for the children". In this case that's valid--but only because we force all of our children into the same place every day during the sick season.

Without government schooling, there would be less need for forced vaccinations. We could send our children to schools that require vaccinations, and Rand Paul and Chris Christie could send theirs to the schools that don't care.

Posted by: Stephen Price Blair at February 02, 2015 06:29 PM (J0IP0)

289 >>>281 Obama and Hillary have both played with the anti-vaxxer stuff. There are anti-vaxxer are both sides, though I thought more on the Left -- especially the moneyed Left.
Posted by: Costanza Defense at February 02, 2015 06:27 PM (ZPrif)>>>

Last poll I saw had it much more likely among Republicans. Which I found shocking.

Posted by: gm at February 02, 2015 06:29 PM (/kBoL)

290 284 Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo...Anti-Semite at February 02, 2015 06:28 PM (Zu3d9)

My favorite bit of "logical gymnastics" is the Anthrax vaccine being mandatory for the green machine...

yeah "choice" unless you know "no"

Posted by: Sven S Blade a.k.a. El Assassin@sven10077 at February 02, 2015 06:29 PM (/4AZU)

291 Irony of ironies, I had German measles while my dad was stationed in...Germany.

I don't remember ever being sicker, until I had Valley Fever.

My mother got a German doctor to make a house call. The first thing he did was scold her for keeping me in a darkened, over-heated room.

He threw the blinds open, cracked open the windows in my bedroom (it was winter), and gave her a recipe for a milkshake to help me get my strength back.

I had run a fever of 106 for at least one day. I remember hallucinating.

I also remember hating eggs with the heat of a million suns, and walking in the kitchen one day as she was making me a delicious milkshake. With a raw egg.

Posted by: Jane D'oh at February 02, 2015 06:29 PM (FsuaD)

292 "I always get sick to certain degree after a vaccination. But I realize that what I have is not the sickness contained in the vaccine, but just my body's immune system reacting to an antigen that has been introduced."

Or to the adjuvant.

An underlooked part of adverse reactions to vaccination.

Posted by: torquewrench at February 02, 2015 06:30 PM (noWW6)

293 Help! Quack! Help! Get Rand to stop stomping on me! Quack!

Posted by: Randpaulsduck at February 02, 2015 06:30 PM (LZSsH)

294 It comes with chlorination, etc., and chlorine makes my stuff taste bad.
Posted by: outarange guy at February 02, 2015 06:28 PM (7Vvzu

have we met?

Posted by: Typhoid at February 02, 2015 06:30 PM (W6iIX)

295 Hi MandyP

We're home schoolers too. Just wanted to shout out to you.
I don't know of any significant movement against vaccination in the homeschool "community."

Posted by: JohnnyBoy at February 02, 2015 06:30 PM (TPjwz)

296 and chlorine makes my stuff taste bad.

Tastes bad Less deadly.

Posted by: Redshirt at February 02, 2015 06:31 PM (Ae09I)

297 >>>Without government schooling, there would be less need for forced vaccinations. We could send our children to schools that require vaccinations, and Rand Paul and Chris Christie could send theirs to the schools that don't care.
Posted by: Stephen Price Blair at February 02, 2015 06:29 PM (J0IP0)>>>

Why would anyone who has vaccinated his kids care if he went to a school that required vaccinations or not? If your kids are vaccinated, you and your kids don't have to worry. The people with kids that don't get vaccinated want to send their kids to the schools where everyone else is vaccinated so they can rely on the herd immunity.

Posted by: gm at February 02, 2015 06:31 PM (/kBoL)

298 We could send our children to schools that require vaccinations, and Rand Paul and Chris Christie could send theirs to the schools that don't care.

-----

This seems a little harsh. At no point have either Paul or Christie said they are anti-vaccine.

Posted by: SH at February 02, 2015 06:32 PM (gmeXX)

299 I guess I got so used to listening to my ex-inlaws rattle on about how vaccinations can be horrible and how crystals can heal you and how stupid and anti-science I am because I don't think the UN should be in charge of fighting global warming, that I didn't know there was much of an anti-vax right. Hmmm.

Posted by: Furious George at February 02, 2015 06:32 PM (UlJ3l)

300 Is it a full moon?

Posted by: Miss Teen America at February 02, 2015 06:33 PM (Dwehj)

301 @294 I know you didn't mean to be tedious.
*plugs Chippewa Springs spring water*

Posted by: outarange guy at February 02, 2015 06:33 PM (7Vvzu)

302 299 Posted by: SH at February 02, 2015 06:32 PM (gmeXX)

Rand came closest to crossing the Tardasil barrier...

"er oh yeah shit goes wrong with 'em all the time...I have ANECDOTES!"

Posted by: Sven S Blade a.k.a. El Assassin@sven10077 at February 02, 2015 06:33 PM (/4AZU)

303 was making me a delicious milkshake. With a raw egg.
Posted by: Jane D'oh at February 02, 2015 06:29 PM (FsuaD)

who puts raw egg in a milk shake

same person who puts mayonaise on a burger?

Posted by: Big Mike the steam shovel at February 02, 2015 06:33 PM (W6iIX)

304 Ukraine run by 'miserable' Jews, says rebel chief
Leader of self-proclaimed Donetsk People's Republic says country's historical nationalists 'would turn in their graves if they could see who is running Ukraine'.

Posted by: Nevergiveup at February 02, 2015 06:33 PM (nzKvP)

305 Maybe they should add all those vaccine thingies to whatever is being aerosolified into the chemtrails, and just solve our problem once and for all...

Posted by: Keith Arnold at February 02, 2015 06:33 PM (iIzG7)

306 The people with kids that don't get vaccinated want to send their kids to the schools where everyone else is vaccinated so they can rely on the herd immunity.

Si, pero en Espanol, por favor.

Posted by: Manuel Cuarto de Cinco at February 02, 2015 06:33 PM (FcR7P)

307 i can see what ace is saying that Rand is maybe pandering to the paranoid crowd with a smidge of his statement. but the beef i have with ace's criticism is that Rand is in fact a doctor. i'm not a doctor, and if he says healthy kids have been damaged after taking vaccines, i would be hesitant to say rand is pandering and might think there may be something in vaccines that may actually harm a sliver of the population. i just think it's a leap to say that rand is pandering to nutjobs. but maybe he is.

Posted by: obamuh at February 02, 2015 06:34 PM (rNS5g)

308 j___eraghty @j___eraghty 2h 2 hours ago
7.1% of kindergartners in Oregon have religious or "philosophic exemptions" from vaccination. http://bit.ly/1Dq04ea

Posted by: Costanza Defense at February 02, 2015 06:34 PM (ZPrif)

309 Where did Rand Paul say he was against vaccines? Did you even read the link?

"I've heard of many tragic cases of walking, talking, normal children who wound up with profound mental disorders after vaccines,"

I guess we can infer then that he's in favor of profound mental disorders.

Posted by: toby928(C) at February 02, 2015 06:34 PM (rwI+c)

310 Schools would be safer if they immunized the teachers for stupid.

Posted by: Redshirt at February 02, 2015 06:35 PM (Ae09I)

311 Rand came closest to crossing the Tardasil barrier...

"er oh yeah shit goes wrong with 'em all the time...I have ANECDOTES!"

-----

Admittedly I did not like that aspect of his response. But I'm less offended with his default mode of freedom. But what Paul and Christie said is completely different than what McCarthy advocates - who said you shouldn't get vaccinnes.

Honestly, I think this is a big non-issue. Yet here I am.

Posted by: SH at February 02, 2015 06:35 PM (gmeXX)

312 Why would anyone who has vaccinated his kids care if he went to a school that required vaccinations or not?

Vaccines aren't 100%. Sometimes the disease can get passed the body's boosted immune response. So even if a child is vaccinated, they will still be safer among other kids who are vaccinated.

Posted by: Stephen Price Blair at February 02, 2015 06:35 PM (J0IP0)

313 Schools would be safer if they immunized the teachers for stupid.
Posted by: Redshirt at February 02, 2015 06:35 PM (Ae09I)

a union vac would be nice too

Posted by: Big Mike the steam shovel at February 02, 2015 06:35 PM (W6iIX)

314 >>>Rand came closest to crossing the Tardasil barrier...

"er oh yeah shit goes wrong with 'em all the time...I have ANECDOTES!"
Posted by: Sven S Blade a.k.a. El Assassin@sven10077 at February 02, 2015 06:33 PM (/4AZU)>>>

I don't even know that he has anecdotes. He's said he's "heard." Whatever that means. I've heard of Bachmann's Tardasil story too -- doesn't mean I believe it. In any event, if it doesn't affect his political position, does it matter?

Posted by: gm at February 02, 2015 06:36 PM (/kBoL)

315 Rand blames vaccines.

Ron would blame Joooos.

So that's progress.

Posted by: Squirrel at February 02, 2015 06:36 PM (1pMFa)

316 otherwise i agree entirely with the spirit of the rest of the post.

Posted by: obamuh at February 02, 2015 06:36 PM (rNS5g)

317 'Jesus some topics...'

Says the (redacted) dentist who thinks nothing of filling cavities with lead.

Posted by: se pa moron at February 02, 2015 06:36 PM (zxQ4h)

318 "And you're a doctor, for God's sakes"
- and this is why he is careful about vaccines. Btw if you die as a result of a vaccine, your family can't legally sue the manufacturer. The government cuts a check instead, and they pay out about 1/24th as much.
This is the website for the government program that pays compensation for vaccine deaths/injuries.
http://www.hrsa.gov/vaccinecompensation/index.html

Posted by: DocMerlin at February 02, 2015 06:36 PM (v/AZT)

319 Schools would be safer if they immunized the teachers for stupid.

We need an Manhattan project for this.

Posted by: toby928(C) at February 02, 2015 06:36 PM (rwI+c)

320 Don't all vaccines have electrolytes?

Posted by: Furious George at February 02, 2015 06:36 PM (UlJ3l)

321 212 163 The anti vaccine people are crunchy hippie scum, not Republican voters.
Posted by: Mr. Moo Moo at February 02, 2015 05:57 PM (deSK3)

If only it were so. Unfortunately there is a certain strain of conservatives who are anti-vaccine. They also tend to be highly skeptical of doctors and believe in natural cures but are otherwise orthodox conservatives. I know they exist because there are several in my extended family.
Posted by: Maetenloch at February 02, 2015 06:06 PM (pAlYe)

__________

I guess stupidity is bipartisan in this area.

Posted by: Mr. Moo Moo at February 02, 2015 06:37 PM (0LHZx)

322 Ukraine's being run by miserable Jews?

Well, by golly let's see if we can cheer them up!

Posted by: JohnnyBoy at February 02, 2015 06:37 PM (TPjwz)

323 >>>Vaccines aren't 100%. Sometimes the disease can get passed the body's boosted immune response. So even if a child is vaccinated, they will still be safer among other kids who are vaccinated.
Posted by: Stephen Price Blair at February 02, 2015 06:35 PM (J0IP0)>>>

Sure, anomalies happen, but if you're living life worrying about all of the anomalies, you're going to drop a bunch of change on Prozac.

Posted by: gm at February 02, 2015 06:38 PM (/kBoL)

324 Isn't Rand Paul an Opthomalogist?

Eye doctor. He might not have been keeping up-to-date on the vaccine wars.

Posted by: Grampa Jimbo at February 02, 2015 06:38 PM (V70Uh)

325 "I don't even know that he has anecdotes."

Well, if he has the anecdote, then he should give it to people with the measles! How uncompassionate he must be to not share his anecdote!

Oh, wait... I thought you meant "antidote." Nevvvvermiiiiiiind...

Posted by: Keith Arnold at February 02, 2015 06:38 PM (iIzG7)

326 Vaccines aren't 100%. Sometimes the disease can get passed the body's boosted immune response. So even if a child is vaccinated, they will still be safer among other kids who are vaccinated.
Posted by: Stephen Price Blair at February 02, 2015 06:35 PM (J0IP0)

Plus some kids have to delay or even skip scheduled vaccinations for valid health reasons. So they're much safer in schools where everyone else has been vaccinated.

Posted by: Maetenloch at February 02, 2015 06:39 PM (pAlYe)

327 Says the (redacted) dentist who thinks nothing of filling cavities with lead.
Posted by: se pa moron at February 02, 2015 06:36 PM (zxQ4h)

A) Ya know when you "assume" someone does something you make an ass out of you and me

B) I guess the evidence that " mercury" not lead fillings is dangerous is stashed away with the same evidence that vaccines are dangerous?

Posted by: Nevergiveup at February 02, 2015 06:39 PM (nzKvP)

328 My anecdotes were so enflamed when I had Tardasilitis that they had to be removed.

Posted by: Grampa Jimbo at February 02, 2015 06:40 PM (V70Uh)

329 I had anecdotes once, good story ...

Posted by: Costanza Defense at February 02, 2015 06:40 PM (ZPrif)

330 "My anecdotes were so enflamed when I had Tardasilitis that they had to be removed.

At least they gave you lots of ice cream. What flavor did you get?

Posted by: Keith Arnold at February 02, 2015 06:41 PM (iIzG7)

331 The only freedom that matters is the Freedom to Be Wrong.

----

I kept pulling the trigger, sure, but I thought the gun was out of bullets. You can't get mad at me just for being wrong.

Posted by: Turd Ferguson at February 02, 2015 06:42 PM (VAsIq)

332 Neal Dewing can't believe people are debating this. This is his shtick. No one is debating this. There may be a few fringe people out there, but 95% of this country is pro-vaccination. Its not just the left that is trying to use this to make people look like rubes.

Has Palin commented on this?

Posted by: SH at February 02, 2015 06:42 PM (gmeXX)

333 I skimmed the essay...

...and Ace said everything I ever wanted to say, so that saves me a lot or work. Thx!

Posted by: zombie at February 02, 2015 06:42 PM (K4YiS)

334 >>>Plus some kids have to delay or even skip scheduled vaccinations for valid health reasons. So they're much safer in schools where everyone else has been vaccinated.
Posted by: Maetenloch at February 02, 2015 06:39 PM (pAlYe)>>>

We're much safer with all kinds of nanny statism. We could all live in bubbles too and wear full padding all of the time. And ban skateboards (which I did in my house after my oldest's double compound fracture). And bikes. And alcohol. And salt. And 20 ounce sodas ...

Posted by: gm at February 02, 2015 06:42 PM (/kBoL)

335 Seatbelts and airbags aren't 100% effective but the govt mandates them. Oh crap what are we arguing about again.

Posted by: Redshirt at February 02, 2015 06:43 PM (Ae09I)

336 lot or work = lot OF work

Posted by: zombie at February 02, 2015 06:43 PM (K4YiS)

337 It just galls me...

and yeah not even really "professional anecdotes" it is "shit I heard...."

anyway whatever my willingness to back Luap Darn was already hanging by a single spider's thread....

and he was busy shaking it with "knock that voter ID shit off folks find it offensive"

Posted by: Sven S Blade a.k.a. El Assassin@sven10077 at February 02, 2015 06:43 PM (/4AZU)

338 Hmm. Insty seems to find others who disagree w/Ace:

"Why the 'Prius Driving, Composting' Set Fears Vaccines"

Posted by: anon a mouse at February 02, 2015 06:43 PM (/jpU8)

339 Tardisil 2: The Entardening

Posted by: Retard Strength Trumps Smart Power at February 02, 2015 06:44 PM (N+Fis)

340 >>>335 Ace is smearing Rand Paul at the behest of his neocon pay masters. Rather than read what Paul said, the hicks here are just following the Ace's instructions.
Posted by: Stop the lies at February 02, 2015 06:42 PM (+QNBP)>>>

I don't disagree with Rand's political position, but I find his anti-vaxxer misinformation unhelpful. Not sure why he'd go there, especially after Bachmann's Tardasil fiasco.

Posted by: gm at February 02, 2015 06:45 PM (/kBoL)

341 It's a mercury amalgam so totes safe.

Posted by: Redshirt at February 02, 2015 06:45 PM (Ae09I)

342 Thank goodness 99% of the country is still talking about Pete Carroll. This is the dumbest non-issue in a long time. Probably since Tardasil.

Posted by: SH at February 02, 2015 06:45 PM (gmeXX)

343 Did I miss something? Who got their head handed to them on this issue?"

Didn't you know that the GOP lost big last November?

/

Posted by: anon a mouse at February 02, 2015 06:45 PM (/jpU8)

344

I fail to see the problem. The only people at risk from a measles outbreak are those people who won't get their kids vaccinated. Don't want to worry about an outbreak? Get vaccinated. Don't want to get vaccinated, accept that your kid gets the measles (and potentially dies).

Posted by: imp at February 02, 2015 06:45 PM (XIXZz)

345 335 Ace is smearing Rand Paul at the behest of his neocon pay masters. Rather than read what Paul said, the hicks here are just following the Ace's instructions.
Posted by: Stop the lies at February 02, 2015 06:42 PM (+QNBP)

Yeah because legitimate disagreements over policies are simply not possible.

Got anything else or is this pretty much it?

Posted by: Maetenloch at February 02, 2015 06:46 PM (pAlYe)

346 Neal Dewing can't believe people aren't as smart as him.

Posted by: SH at February 02, 2015 06:46 PM (gmeXX)

347 When someone who makes their religion obvious by spamming every thread starts a comment with 'Jesus' -- well that is someone who appears to be huffing way too much NO.

Just say NO, dude.

Posted by: se pa moron at February 02, 2015 06:46 PM (zxQ4h)

348 Btw
if you die as a result of a vaccine, your family can't legally sue the
manufacturer. The government cuts a check instead, and they pay out
about 1/24th as much.

Posted by: DocMerlin at February 02, 2015 06:36 PM (v/AZT)

You omitted why that is true: because without it, no company will manufacture vaccines. It's not profitable on the upside, and the downside liability is enormous (thanks, John Edwards and ambulance-chasing friends!)

Companies were getting out of vaccine manufacture and only reluctantly agreed to continue making them if they couldn't be sued.

Posted by: Jay Guevara at February 02, 2015 06:46 PM (oKE6c)

349 The vaccine industry is owned by the Jooos, who lure children to MD's offices for vaccinations and then harvest a certain number each year for matzoh for Passover.

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo...Anti-Semite at February 02, 2015 06:28 PM (Zu3d9)/i]

That's not vaccine!

It's meat tenderizer!

Posted by: To Serve Kids at February 02, 2015 06:46 PM (0Ew3K)

350 >>>and he was busy shaking it with "knock that voter ID shit off folks find it offensive"
Posted by: Sven S Blade a.k.a. El Assassin@sven10077 at February 02, 2015 06:43 PM (/4AZU)>>>

Meh, I'll give up voter ID if I can shrink the federal government in real terms. The other Republicans will give me neither.

Posted by: gm at February 02, 2015 06:46 PM (/kBoL)

351 Speaking of Doctors, how long does a referral usually take? I ask because I saw a GP on Thursday afternoon who referred me to a specific Orthopedic surgeon.

Here it is Monday close of business and the "referral specialist" is claiming it takes time to "call around" and "get the chart notes" and send that off.

I have no idea what the "calling around" BS is about. The GP is sending me to a specific person. There are no prior records to receive or anything. "Calling around" should be "fax this crap to the office fax number I supplied you with in case you were to stupid to get it yourself."

Posted by: bonhomme at February 02, 2015 06:46 PM (jhqr1)

352 Rand never really had a chance anyway.

Posted by: Costanza Defense at February 02, 2015 06:47 PM (ZPrif)

353 I fail to see the problem. The only people at risk from a measles outbreak are those people who won't get their kids vaccinated. Don't want to worry about an outbreak? Get vaccinated. Don't want to get vaccinated, accept that your kid gets the measles (and potentially dies).
Posted by: imp at February 02, 2015 06:45 PM (XIXZz)

_____________

As others have noted, vaccines aren't 100% effective.

Posted by: Mr. Moo Moo at February 02, 2015 06:47 PM (0LHZx)

354 Got anything else or is this pretty much it?

----

Yes, I will not support Rick Perry because he hired someone I don't like to defend him in a criminal lawsuit. But for that I really like him as a candidate.

Posted by: SH at February 02, 2015 06:47 PM (gmeXX)

355

335 ...
Posted by: Stop the lies

And yet here you are, courageously standing athwart the breach, yelling "Stop!!!" on the internets.

Posted by: imp at February 02, 2015 06:48 PM (XIXZz)

356 BTW, the money quote from Insty's linkbait:

"There's a perception that vaccine refusal is especially common among affluent, well-educated, politically liberal parents"

Not exactly the GOP base, n'est ce pas?

Posted by: anon a mouse at February 02, 2015 06:48 PM (/jpU8)

357 Jumping into the polar bear pen at the zoo is different than releasing the polar bears from the zoo.

Posted by: eman at February 02, 2015 06:48 PM (k01nS)

358 356 Speaking of Doctors, how long does a referral usually take? I ask because I saw a GP on Thursday afternoon who referred me to a specific Orthopedic surgeon.

Here it is Monday close of business and the "referral specialist" is claiming it takes time to "call around" and "get the chart notes" and send that off.

I have no idea what the "calling around" BS is about. The GP is sending me to a specific person. There are no prior records to receive or anything. "Calling around" should be "fax this crap to the office fax number I supplied you with in case you were to stupid to get it yourself."
Posted by: bonhomme at February 02, 2015 06:46 PM (jhqr1)

___________

Long ago I stopped going to a GP. Whenever I have a medical issue, I go straight to the specialist. Aside from mundane stuff like the flu, GPs are nothing but middle men.

Posted by: Mr. Moo Moo at February 02, 2015 06:48 PM (0LHZx)

359 >>>Yeah because legitimate disagreements over policies are simply not possible.

Got anything else or is this pretty much it?
Posted by: Maetenloch at February 02, 2015 06:46 PM (pAlYe)>>>

What policy did ace disagree with Rand Paul on here? This is ace's response to the actual policy position: "Indeed they should." So, they agree. No legitimate disagreement over policy.

Posted by: gm at February 02, 2015 06:49 PM (/kBoL)

360 We really need Sarah Palin to step in here and tell us that she has never vaccinated any of her children.

Posted by: SH at February 02, 2015 06:49 PM (gmeXX)

361 Posted by: Stop the lies at February 02, 2015 06:42 PM (+QNBP)

I think Axelrod paid his trolls last week. You're late.

Posted by: Jane D'oh, Hick of Ace at February 02, 2015 06:49 PM (FsuaD)

362 Stop the lies,

He never overtly said it, however he deferred to the anti-vaccers in a way that bespeaks his disdain for the procedure with his "yeah dude bad shit happens I have HEARD stuff"

Sorry your Luap guys suck on the gotcha game.

Posted by: Sven S Blade a.k.a. El Assassin@sven10077 at February 02, 2015 06:49 PM (/4AZU)

363 358 I fail to see the problem. The only people at risk from a measles outbreak are those people who won't get their kids vaccinated. Don't want to worry about an outbreak? Get vaccinated. Don't want to get vaccinated, accept that your kid gets the measles (and potentially dies).
Posted by: imp at February 02, 2015 06:45 PM (XIXZz)

_____________

As others have noted, vaccines aren't 100% effective.
Posted by: Mr. Moo Moo at February 02, 2015 06:47 PM (0LHZx)

What should also be noted is that children need to be a certain age before receiving vaccinations.

I guess if you're too young it's tough shit.

Posted by: Dack Thrombosis at February 02, 2015 06:49 PM (oFCZn)

364 Anti-vaxxers are a mixed bunch. Yes, there's the rich hippie Jenny McCarthys, but there are also some Christian sects that oppose vaccination.

Posted by: Costanza Defense at February 02, 2015 06:49 PM (ZPrif)

365 The reason I never go Full Libertarian is (surprisingly) the FDA.

We need the FDA.

Because without some oversight body saying what is is not allowable to sell or advertise with unproven claims, we would be allowed both big corporations and small-time hucksters to sell us crap that will kill us, and lie to us about it.

People have already forgotten what life was like before the FDA -- the era of the Snake Oil Salesman.

Shysters would sell rubes awful awful poisons, containing mercury, lead, arsenic, and lod know what else, claiming it was a miracle cure for what ails ya. And "Big Pharma" sold heroin over the counter (to children, even), put cocaine in soft drinks, and hid drugs with horrifying side effects in mild-mannered seeming medicine-cabinet ointments.

And then there are the New Agers and the faddist and the herbal maniacs, no to mention the steroids and the growth hormones and everything else.

We know from long historical experience that without strictly enforced laws controlling these things, enforced by the government, we'd be back in the Snake Oil era again, but with even more extreme drugs and ingredients this time.

So we NEED the FDA, to ensure public health.

And that;'s why I never go Full Libertarian.

Posted by: zombie at February 02, 2015 06:50 PM (K4YiS)

366 "I asked him what's the best way to anticipate where there might be higher than normal rates of vaccine noncompliance, and he said take a map and put a pin wherever there's a Whole Foods. I sort of laughed, and he said, "No, really, I'm not joking." It's those communities with the Prius driving, composting, organic food-eating people."

so how does this bit from ScienceMag square w/this post?

Posted by: anon a mouse at February 02, 2015 06:50 PM (/jpU8)

367 371 Posted by: Stop the lies at February 02, 2015 06:49 PM (+QNBP)

right and he also implies that we don't reach out to the blacks enough...by you know evidently adopting the NAACP's communist platform of reparations and class warfare...

Posted by: Sven S Blade a.k.a. El Assassin@sven10077 at February 02, 2015 06:51 PM (/4AZU)

368 >>>As others have noted, vaccines aren't 100% effective.
Posted by: Mr. Moo Moo at February 02, 2015 06:47 PM (0LHZx)>>>

Nothing in life is 100%. Nothing. Using that as the basis for a policy decision might indicate that one has taken too much Tardasil.

Posted by: gm at February 02, 2015 06:51 PM (/kBoL)

369 345 It's a mercury amalgam so totes safe.
Posted by: Redshirt at February 02, 2015 06:45 PM (Ae09I)

I didn't know dentists still used mercury amalgam. Mine uses some kind of ceramic filling that bonds to the tooth, and prevents further decay (assuming proper brushing and flossing). I thought the biggest problem with mercury amalgam fillings is that the enamel can continue to decay around the filling.

Posted by: rickl at February 02, 2015 06:51 PM (sdi6R)

370 Affluent liberals are more inclined to believe the bullshit about autism and vaccines. They're the parents that read 17 baby books, 13 of which are "just asking questions" about links between autism and vaccines, and they're gullible enough to believe the nonsense. Gruber's peeps.

Posted by: Mr. Moo Moo at February 02, 2015 06:51 PM (0LHZx)

371 So we NEED the FDA, to ensure public health.

And that;'s why I never go Full Libertarian.

----

I'm not convinced that we need the FDA. Is this not a job the states can do? In the age of the internet, can't we have self-regulation. And for every harm the FDA "saves" us from, what benefits are they getting in the way of?

Posted by: SH at February 02, 2015 06:52 PM (gmeXX)

372
So we NEED the FDA, to ensure public health.

And that;'s why I never go Full Libertarian.

Posted by: zombie at February 02, 2015 06:50 PM (K4YiS)

Marry me.

Posted by: Colorado Alex at February 02, 2015 06:52 PM (10ydV)

373 If you're vaccinated, then un-vaccinated people are not a danger to you. So... none of your f-ing business if I do or not.

And "they're putting their kids in danger"? OK, I don't want you driving your kids around in a car! That's dangerous!

The whole "walking, talking normal kid" being turned into a mess right after vaccinations? Yeah. Happened to my best friend's kid.

Autism is listed in their own goddamned literature as a recognized side effect!!!

"Adverse events reported during post-approval use of Tripedia (diphtheria and tetanus toxoids and acellular pertussis vaccine) vaccine include idiopathic thrombocytopenic purpura, SIDS, anaphylactic reaction, cellulitis, autism, convulsion/grand mal convulsion, encephalopathy, hypotonia, neuropathy, somnolence and apnea."

SIDS? SIDS? As in "dead baby"? Hell of a side effect, that is.

Posted by: RKae at February 02, 2015 06:52 PM (Nsl5R)

374 What policy did ace disagree with Rand Paul on here? This is ace's response to the actual policy position: "Indeed they should." So, they agree. No legitimate disagreement over policy.
Posted by: gm at February 02, 2015 06:49 PM (/kBoL)

Well in that case they agree. But only because the Jooish^H^H^H neo-con paymasters wanted Ace to.

Posted by: Maetenloch at February 02, 2015 06:52 PM (pAlYe)

375 Dnar is a chip off the old blockhead. I am so proud of him.

Posted by: Luap Nor's last brain cell at February 02, 2015 06:52 PM (91eZY)

376 Mine uses some kind of ceramic filling that bonds to the tooth, and prevents further decay

Yeah maybe in fantasy land

Posted by: Nevergiveup at February 02, 2015 06:52 PM (nzKvP)

377 375 Posted by: Stop the lies at February 02, 2015 06:51 PM (+QNBP)

Luap Darn shat out a nugget that had Bachmann utters it would be SNL material...

"well uh I hear bad shit happens"...

yeah nice Medical assertion there Dr Paul...

Posted by: Sven S Blade a.k.a. El Assassin@sven10077 at February 02, 2015 06:52 PM (/4AZU)

378

Apparently, it needs to be said:

NEVER go Full Paul

... Ronulus the Ronulan is a failed cause, but I had some small hope for Rand ...

Posted by: Arbalest at February 02, 2015 06:53 PM (FlRtG)

379 376 >>>As others have noted, vaccines aren't 100% effective.
Posted by: Mr. Moo Moo at February 02, 2015 06:47 PM (0LHZx)>>>

Nothing in life is 100%. Nothing. Using that as the basis for a policy decision might indicate that one has taken too much Tardasil.
Posted by: gm at February 02, 2015 06:51 PM (/kBoL)

__________

What is 100% is the idiocy levels of people who don't vaccinate their kids.

Every kid that isn't vaccinated increases the chance that other kids will get infected. Even if it's a small increase, it's a risk that isn't necessary. These parents are actively fucking up other people's lives due to political or religious or autism paranoia reasons. They can all go fuck themselves.

Posted by: Mr. Moo Moo at February 02, 2015 06:53 PM (0LHZx)

380 >>>Paul explicitly stated he is not against vaccines. I rtead the article and Ace is distorting it. I understanding he has tro rile you hicks up. but he's lying.
Posted by: Stop the lies at February 02, 2015 06:51 PM (+QNBP)>>>

He's not lying, per se. He explicitly states that he agrees with Rand on the policy issues. But, he definitely seems to be trying to gin up anti-Rand fervor for some reason. Which I can understand to a certain extent, because these anti-vaxxers annoy the hell out of me. No reason for Rand to give them any ammunition by talking about vaccines making you retarded.

Posted by: gm at February 02, 2015 06:54 PM (/kBoL)

381 before the FDA"

There was the Penna Dept. of Ag stamp.

Brands could (once upon a time) charge a premium for foodstuff so stamped.
Sure, it meant that so called "generic" foods might have entailed a greater risk, but that's how it rolled back in the day.

As to the specific ingredients though, you might be surprised to learn that many strange things have been sold - and eagerly ingested - in the name of SCIENCE!

Posted by: anon a mouse at February 02, 2015 06:54 PM (/jpU8)

382 Tardasil redux. Glad this is coming out now. Be a nasty surprise in oh, about a year or so.

Posted by: Kraken at February 02, 2015 06:54 PM (5+mPY)

383 I fail to see the problem. The only people at risk from a measles outbreak are those people who won't get their kids vaccinated. Don't want to worry about an outbreak? Get vaccinated. Don't want to get vaccinated, accept that your kid gets the measles (and potentially dies).

This completely ignores the herd immunity argument. There are people who cannot be vaccinated (babies, some old people, immunocompromised people). There are other people who are vaccinated but for whatever reason the vaccine doesn't work (about 7 of the CA measles victims were vaccinated).

Your freedom to choose is well and good. And the schools, child-care-centers, and theme parks should be free to exclude your freedom-loving plague-filled brood. There's a reason MMR almost disappeared, and we should replicate the acts that made that possible.

Posted by: bonhomme at February 02, 2015 06:54 PM (jhqr1)

384 Posted by: Stop the lies at February 02, 2015 06:44 PM (+QNBP)

Maetenloch, hector.

Hector, maetenloch.

Please to be introducing to the tb3k.

Posted by: Buzzion at February 02, 2015 06:54 PM (z/Ubi)

385 386 Posted by: Stop the lies at February 02, 2015 06:53 PM (+QNBP)

I personally reach out to blacks with the baseline GOP message of limited government and escape from hyper-regulatory fiat....

I also very vocally backed Dr Rice for 2008 and am not at all averse to a minority candidate...

this cycle I am a Haley backer.

Why are you trying to calumny me by saying I hate freedom loving blacks?

Why should I have to sing La Internationale to sway the NAACP?

Posted by: Sven S Blade a.k.a. El Assassin@sven10077 at February 02, 2015 06:55 PM (/4AZU)

386 Wait, so you guys are saying you know better than a doctor because your kids lucked out, or are you saying someone else's kid possibly getting an untreatable disease in the name of your own kids getting a treatable one is a good thing? Because The Greater Good?

Remember, Congress immunized (pun possibly intended?) the drug companies from any autism liability many years ago.

That speaks volumes.

But consensus here good, otherwise bad. Individual liberty here bad, otherwise, good.

If I didn't know two people whose kids went autistic after the MMR, I'd likely join the throng.

No animus to anyone.

Posted by: Anon at February 02, 2015 06:55 PM (yxw0r)

387 I'm not convinced that we need the FDA. Is this not a job the states can do? In the age of the internet, can't we have self-regulation. And for every harm the FDA "saves" us from, what benefits are they getting in the way of?
Posted by: SH

First off, people --the hoi polloi -- are incredibly stupid. And easily duped. No, we CAN'T have self-regulation -- very few people have the savvy to really accurately research what they're taking, drug-wise. People fall for false claims all the time.

And what benefit is there to duplicate the FDA 50 times over to create a state-by-state system? It's incredibly time-consuming and expensive to prove drugs are safe (or unsafe). Why prove it 50 times?

And as for wonderful benefits the FDA saves us from: perhaps there are a few. A handful. But the tradeoff -- erring on the side of caution -- is more than worth it.

Posted by: zombie at February 02, 2015 06:55 PM (K4YiS)

388 I'm all for the FDA. It's necessary. So we have to keep it clean, and stop the revolving door that connects it to pharmaceutical companies.

BTW, I choose my conspiracies and paranoia carefully.

9/11: No "inside job." Muslims did it.
Moon landing: No conspiracy. We went to the moon.
Sandy Hook: Yes conspiracy. Pictures are faked.

Posted by: RKae at February 02, 2015 06:56 PM (Nsl5R)

389 My mercury amalgam comment was not meant to be fearful. But more amazed at how science works. That mercury is bad to eat but some guy came up with away to put in your mouth to your benefit.

Posted by: Redshirt at February 02, 2015 06:56 PM (Ae09I)

390 Maetenloch, hector.
Hector, maetenloch.
Please to be introducing to the tb3k.
Posted by: Buzzion at February 02, 2015 06:54 PM (z/Ubi)

Yep I think it's time they met. Although I didn't realize hector was a ronulon too....

Posted by: Maetenloch at February 02, 2015 06:56 PM (pAlYe)

391 >>>
What is 100% is the idiocy levels of people who don't vaccinate their kids.

Every kid that isn't vaccinated increases the chance that other kids will get infected. Even if it's a small increase, it's a risk that isn't necessary. These parents are actively fucking up other people's lives due to political or religious or autism paranoia reasons. They can all go fuck themselves.
Posted by: Mr. Moo Moo at February 02, 2015 06:53 PM (0LHZx)>>>

They can go fuck themselves, but doesn't mean I want the government, especially the feds, to force them to do it. The "even if it's a small increase" is the excuse made by the fascists on the left to use the force of the government to ban everything from soda to guns. They can go fuck themselves too.

Posted by: gm at February 02, 2015 06:57 PM (/kBoL)

392 Wow some true life honest to goodness anti-vaxxers showed up?

I'm assuming many of these crackpots are scouring the Internet 24/7 looking for a place to drop a turd.

Posted by: Dack Thrombosis at February 02, 2015 06:57 PM (oFCZn)

393 Thank you, zombie. Always the truth.

Posted by: se pa moron at February 02, 2015 06:57 PM (zxQ4h)

394 401 Posted by: Maetenloch at February 02, 2015 06:56 PM (pAlYe)

It'd explain a LOT of his rage at the GOP looking back on it...

and his doublespeak about the "real GOP'...

Posted by: Sven S Blade a.k.a. El Assassin@sven10077 at February 02, 2015 06:57 PM (/4AZU)

395 BTW, I choose my conspiracies and paranoia carefully.

9/11: No "inside job." Muslims did it.
Moon landing: No conspiracy. We went to the moon.
Sandy Hook: Yes conspiracy. Pictures are faked.
Posted by: RKae at February 02, 2015 06:56 PM (Nsl5R)

__________

There's a Sandy Hook conspiracy theory? What, it never happened?

Never mind. I don't want to know.

Posted by: Mr. Moo Moo at February 02, 2015 06:57 PM (0LHZx)

396 Vaccines don't cause autism.
That's just something retards says.

Posted by: Facts about Science at February 02, 2015 06:58 PM (ZPrif)

397 This should NEVER have been a Federal issue.

Cut 1: This is a parent's decision. Period.

Cut 2: Schools (and local school boards) can decide if they want to require proof of vaccinations for enrollment. It is, after all, a public school. If you don't want to vaccinate your kid, you can home school them.

Posted by: Damiano at February 02, 2015 06:58 PM (eAw1o)

398 First off, people --the hoi polloi -- are incredibly stupid. And easily duped. No, we CAN'T have self-regulation -- very few people have the savvy to really accurately research what they're taking, drug-wise. People fall for false claims all the time.

And what benefit is there to duplicate the FDA 50 times over to create a state-by-state system? It's incredibly time-consuming and expensive to prove drugs are safe (or unsafe). Why prove it 50 times?

And as for wonderful benefits the FDA saves us from: perhaps there are a few. A handful. But the tradeoff -- erring on the side of caution -- is more than worth it.

----

This is the liberal argument for just about everything. I do not accept it. In fact, I flatly reject it. Further, I reject your premise that people cannot decide for themselves.

Posted by: SH at February 02, 2015 06:58 PM (gmeXX)

399
401 Maetenloch, hector.
Hector, maetenloch.
Please to be introducing to the tb3k.
Posted by: Buzzion at February 02, 2015 06:54 PM (z/Ubi)

Yep I think it's time they met. Although I didn't realize hector was a ronulon too....

Posted by: Maetenloch at February 02, 2015 06:56 PM (pAlYe)

Unfortunately it won't last. He constantly changes nicks and hashes. So it's not easy to clamp him down. And the morning cobloggers don't do shit about him.

Posted by: Buzzion at February 02, 2015 06:58 PM (z/Ubi)

400

How to Make Friends and Influence People:

Chapter 1

Call everyone in your audience an idiot.

Chapter 2....

Posted by: imp at February 02, 2015 06:58 PM (XIXZz)

401
As to the specific ingredients though, you might be surprised to learn that many strange things have been sold - and eagerly ingested - in the name of SCIENCE!

Deliberately drinking radioactive water. Be Atomic!

Someone lost their jaw and died gruesomely over that one.

Posted by: CitizenMonster at February 02, 2015 06:58 PM (0NdlF)

402 404 Posted by: Stop the lies at February 02, 2015 06:57 PM (+QNBP)

Outreach is going and making YOUR case to the NAACP and pointing out that 50 years of blind devotion to the democrats has not helped them much at all...

not agreeing with their most lie driven calumnies whether subtly or vociferously.

Frag toi Ronulan.

Posted by: Sven S Blade a.k.a. El Assassin@sven10077 at February 02, 2015 06:59 PM (/4AZU)

403 We have nothing to fear with a Paul in the White House.

Posted by: John McCain at February 02, 2015 06:59 PM (kFxpe)

404 Anti-vaxxers are a mixed bunch. Yes, there's the rich hippie Jenny McCarthys, but there are also some Christian sects that oppose vaccination.

Posted by: Costanza Defense at February 02, 2015 06:49 PM (ZPrif)

Many of those sects, however, keep to themselves and are poor disease vectors.

Posted by: The Vectored Hat at February 02, 2015 06:59 PM (0Ew3K)

405 >>>Well in that case they agree. But only because the Jooish^H^H^H neo-con paymasters wanted Ace to.
Posted by: Maetenloch at February 02, 2015 06:52 PM (pAlYe)>>>

Fucking 'eh, man. Seriously? You're as big a fucking douche as Obama with your stupid ass strawmen.

Posted by: gm at February 02, 2015 06:59 PM (/kBoL)

406 @386
"The conservative base hates blacks"

WTF?!

The elites hate them. Conservatives have no problem with blacks.

Posted by: RKae at February 02, 2015 06:59 PM (Nsl5R)

407 Hector just pretends to be whatever he thinks will get ppl fighting here. Today he's Ronulan.

Posted by: Troll Patrol at February 02, 2015 06:59 PM (ZPrif)

408 And "Big Pharma" sold heroin over the counter (to
children, even), put cocaine in soft drinks, and hid drugs with
horrifying side effects in mild-mannered seeming medicine-cabinet
ointments.

Posted by: zombie at February 02, 2015 06:50 PM (K4YiS)
To be fair, pharmacology and toxicology were in their infancy then, and no one knew about these problems. So at least in part these phenomena reflect ignorance as much as or more than malice.
For example, heroin was synthesized in an effort find a less addictive derivative of morphine, and was initially considered harmless. Similarly, cocaine was considered a wonder drug (most famously by Conan Doyle in the "Sherlock Holmes" series) and was perfectly legal for many years.

So I'd consider 19th century pharmacological faux pas to be much like the advocacy of LSD use in the 1960s.

Posted by: Jay Guevara at February 02, 2015 07:00 PM (oKE6c)

409 The problem stems... once more... from EITHER side making this a black or white issue.

Most vaccines are very good, and needed...

But that does not mean ALL vaccines are good, or needed.

And its those cases, where some wish to use Government force to make every child get vaccines... because some Government wonk thinks its needed...

Look at DDT... and the false science...

Look at Global Warming...

Hell... look at the FDA food pyramids and diet recommendations over the last 50 years...

Time and again.... someone in Government science has gotten it wrong...

Hell.... there were YEARS after Desert Storm, where I could not give blood because of Vaccinations I had received.... which I was ORDERED to get...

Posted by: BB Wolf at February 02, 2015 07:00 PM (qh617)

410 If I didn't know two people whose kids went autistic after the MMR, I'd likely join the throng.

Aaaaand there's the autism -> vaccine link that's undiluted Michael Moore toilet-leavings.

Posted by: bonhomme at February 02, 2015 07:00 PM (jhqr1)

411 420 Posted by: Troll Patrol at February 02, 2015 06:59 PM (ZPrif)

No matter what he pretends the rest stop at mile marker 19...5th stall from the rear awaits him...

beckons like a telltale heart as it were.

Posted by: Sven S Blade a.k.a. El Assassin@sven10077 at February 02, 2015 07:01 PM (/4AZU)

412 Just a warning, libertarians will not forget these smears against Paul and we will not vote GOP in 2016. You will lose.
Posted by: Stop the lies at February 02, 2015 06:57 PM (+QNBP)

Buh-bye.

Reason #14 I'm not a Libertarian: Most Libertarians seem utterly unfamiliar with any concepts from Dale Carnegie's How to Win Friends and Influence People and make it very hard to find common ground with them.

Posted by: Maetenloch at February 02, 2015 07:01 PM (pAlYe)

413 I feel like a I need a shot just reading some of this......Take that either way...

Posted by: hello, it's Me Donna ....again at February 02, 2015 07:01 PM (Bn6aD)

414 Apparently the new cool crunchy thing is to not give your baby the vitamin K shot when they're born. You know, the one that keeps them from bleeding out?

Posted by: Lauren at February 02, 2015 07:01 PM (MYCIw)

415 I'm with ace on his take on Rand. I too had some early hopes that wasn't like his father.

However, I'll have no problem wit him being in the Senate for a long time.

As long as the Democrats don't pay any price for having figures that pander to loon segments of their base, I don't want Republicans to self-police theirs. The media, as ace noted, will do that for them.

Posted by: cm9000 at February 02, 2015 07:02 PM (8zCR+)

416 Hell... look at the FDA food pyramids and diet recommendations over the last 50 years...

Time and again.... someone in Government science has gotten it wrong...

Hell.... there were YEARS after Desert Storm, where I could not give blood because of Vaccinations I had received.... which I was ORDERED to get...
Posted by: BB Wolf at February 02, 2015 07:00 PM (qh617)

________________

But MMR has been along for so long that the science is kind of settled, isn't it? It's safe and effective. And this isn't some govt agency speaking, it's decades of medical research all over the world speaking.

Posted by: Mr. Moo Moo at February 02, 2015 07:02 PM (0LHZx)

417 The Neocons invaded Iraq and Afghanistan in order to...

TAKE OVER THE VACCINE RACKET!

What a brilliant plan. I mean I never saw it coming.

Posted by: Dack Thrombosis at February 02, 2015 07:02 PM (oFCZn)

418 be much like the advocacy of LSD use in the 1960s."

DUDE!

Posted by: anon a mouse at February 02, 2015 07:02 PM (/jpU8)

419 Posted by: Maetenloch at February 02, 2015 07:01 PM (pAlYe)

Hmmmm.... been paying attention to what many around HERE say ... about Libertarians?

Posted by: BB Wolf at February 02, 2015 07:03 PM (qh617)

420 >>>Reason #14 I'm not a Libertarian: Most Libertarians seem utterly unfamiliar with any concepts from Dale Carnegie's How to Win Friends and Influence People and make it very hard to find common ground with them.
Posted by: Maetenloch at February 02, 2015 07:01 PM (pAlYe)>>>

Internalize this.

Posted by: gm at February 02, 2015 07:03 PM (/kBoL)

421 And what benefit is there to duplicate the FDA 50 times over to create a state-by-state system? It's incredibly time-consuming and expensive to prove drugs are safe (or unsafe). Why prove it 50 times?

The same reason we have different states. Less of the Leviathan. Different regulatory agencies doesn't necessarily mean different standards - there could be several companies who provide 3rd party certification of safety, whose approval would legally comply with state regulations.

FDA is better than nothing, but it's not the only solution to the problem and has its own downsides.

Posted by: CitizenMonster at February 02, 2015 07:03 PM (0NdlF)

422 426 Posted by: Maetenloch at February 02, 2015 07:01 PM (pAlYe)

It feels like they are passive-aggressive shitheads who speak a lot about limited government but ally themselves at the drop of a hat with the superstate donks...

whether by demanding we elect their lunatic fringe OR betraying/sitting out the GOP...

I'd almost rather trade them for the poor white trash and whatever bit of the projects we can peel off....

they are ONLY "libertarian" about indulgences and intoxications and seldom about govt overreach on economic issues it seems.

If I wanted smarmy open-borders asshole potheads I can go to the nearest campus and find a democrat.

Posted by: Sven S Blade a.k.a. El Assassin@sven10077 at February 02, 2015 07:04 PM (/4AZU)

423 Aww, the Serbian Ninja just got hosed off the pier...

Posted by: weft cut-loop at February 02, 2015 07:04 PM (PhCVa)

424 Deliberately drinking radioactive water. Be Atomic!

Someone lost their jaw and died gruesomely over that one.
Posted by: CitizenMonster

I once bought one of those "atomic coolers" (water tanks made out of uranium ore) at an estate sale, as a novelty item. It was from the '30s. But after about 3 days of that thing in my house, I said to myself, "Have you gone MAD?" So I sold it to another collector (at a hefty profit -- hee hee hee).

But yes, radioactive water was quite the fad for a while.

Here's the one I bought - the "Revigator":

https://www.pinterest.com/pin/454863631087378569/

Yes -- a home water cooler made from uranium!!!

Posted by: zombie at February 02, 2015 07:05 PM (K4YiS)

425 I wouldn't have a problem with no vaccination as long as it's the anti-vaxxer's kids that die from it.

Because, frankly, I don't want people as stupid as Jenny McCarthy reproducing.

Posted by: Dack Thrombosis at February 02, 2015 07:05 PM (oFCZn)

426

libertarians will not forget these smears against Paul and we will not vote GOP in 2016. You will lose.

"Slights"? Threats? Geez Mrs. Paul, go get some fish dicks. Oh, no, someone insulted a politician! Wahhbulance!!!

Posted by: imp at February 02, 2015 07:05 PM (XIXZz)

427 Blue Dog Democrats are dead.

Phil Kerpen @kerpen 2h
In 2009, 64 House Democrats voted against taxpayer-funded abortions.
In 2015? 3

Posted by: Costanza Defense at February 02, 2015 07:05 PM (ZPrif)

428 First off, people --the hoi polloi -- are incredibly stupid. And easily
duped. No, we CAN'T have self-regulation -- very few people have the
savvy to really accurately research what they're taking, drug-wise.
People fall for false claims all the time.

Like I said, and will continue to say ... a ton of Republicans are JUST as Big Government, and as Tyrannical, as the Progressives. And they're just as complicit in the erosion of our Federal Republic into it's current sack of shit.

Me ... I'm not a big fan of Progressive Politics, or National Socialism, or whatever you want to call it - regardless of which Political Party is pushing it.

Posted by: ScoggDog at February 02, 2015 07:05 PM (9m68G)

429 On the flu vaccine:

3) You got something flu like, but not actually
the flu (enterovirus, cold, both at once.)

I get the shot, then within two days, I'll feel flu-y like for one day. Then I'm fine.

Posted by: rickb223 at February 02, 2015 07:06 PM (/3AGF)

430 423 If I didn't know two people whose kids went autistic after the MMR, I'd likely join the throng.

Aaaaand there's the autism -> vaccine link that's undiluted Michael Moore toilet-leavings.
Posted by: bonhomme at February 02, 2015 07:00 PM (jhqr1)

Who am I gonna believe? The scientific consensus? Penn and Teller? Or my own lying eyes?

Both my kids are vaccinated now. I waited until they were six.

Easy on the snark.

Posted by: Anon at February 02, 2015 07:06 PM (yxw0r)

431 @404
If you believe in full freedom with regards to the choice to vaccinate or not vaccinate your child, you are placing me, my family, and my children at risk. Because community immunity requires anywhere from 75 to 95 percent (depending on the vaccine) you are making a medical decision that impacts me. Without that compliance rate, those who can't be vaccinated due to medical reasons, or who are simply too young to be vaccinated, are at risk. You turn a steel wall into a sieve. Likewise, if you were vaccinated in your youth, those vaccine antibodies have a shelf life. Haven't been given a booster in 10, 20, 30 years? You're as at risk as a newborn for some things.

Liberty comes with responsibility.

Posted by: Kevin in ABQ at February 02, 2015 07:06 PM (BvTwT)

432 If I wanted smarmy open-borders asshole potheads I can go to the nearest campus and find a democrat.
Posted by: Sven S Blade a.k.a. El Assassin@sven10077 at February 02, 2015 07:04 PM (/4AZU)

Aw man, Sven, that's beautiful. These fucks will never vote GOP anyway.

Posted by: Kraken at February 02, 2015 07:06 PM (5+mPY)

433 "Radium Ore Revigator Stoneware Water Cooler, a pseudoscientific medical device consisting of a ceramic water crock lined with radioactive materials. Thousands of the devices were sold in the 1920s and '30s. It be filled with water overnight, which would be irradiated by the uranium and radium in the liner, and then consumed the next day. While the health risk from radiation was low, it also contained arsenic, lead, vanadium, and uranium."

But no, we don't need an FDA!

Posted by: zombie at February 02, 2015 07:06 PM (K4YiS)

434 Fucking 'eh, man. Seriously? You're as big a fucking douche as Obama with your stupid ass strawmen.
Posted by: gm at February 02, 2015 06:59 PM (/kBoL)

Well if Ace and Rand do agree on this, why are you so worked up? I don't get it.

Posted by: Maetenloch at February 02, 2015 07:06 PM (pAlYe)

435
Vaccines are the media's new "Birth Control Pills" question for the
GOP -- injecting an out-of-nowhere wedge issue question into the debate
just because it hurts the GOP.
Yes, and like with BCP, some Republican politicians seem hellbent on walking right into this trap.

Posted by: MidGeorgian at February 02, 2015 07:06 PM (d9kFb)

436 But yannow ? As fun as it is on a slow afternoon to have a Reading Someone Out of Respectable Consideration event, if I rubbed this beer bottle and a genie popped out and offered to exchange Presidents, but the only alternative available was Rand Paul, I'd take that genie up on it in a New York second.

Wouldn't you ?

Hell, I'd even take the Elder (with some reservations); I could make popcorn and watch the Fed get audited instead of the destruction of my nice country.

Eff, I'm not anti-vac; I've been vaccinated for all kinds of stuff, and every time I said "hell, yes, I don't wanna catch that", and I didn't; but how about we all cut each other some slack on the whole difference-of-opinion thing, not to mention the problem of the government-having-a-right-to-stick-needles-in-you thing.

* remembers that he put a half-pint of Jagermeister in the freezer; wanders off*

Posted by: sock_rat_eez at February 02, 2015 07:07 PM (OCcU9)

437 I once bought one of those "atomic coolers" (water tanks made out of uranium ore) at an estate sale

You wouldn't happen to know how long the previous owner had it, and the cause of death, would you?

Posted by: CitizenMonster at February 02, 2015 07:08 PM (0NdlF)

438 I wonder how he feels about second hand smoke.

Posted by: Darth Randall at February 02, 2015 07:08 PM (6n332)

439 Deliberately drinking radioactive water. Be Atomic!

Someone lost their jaw and died gruesomely over that one.

Posted by: CitizenMonster at February 02, 2015 06:58 PM (0NdlF)
Kinda like using chewing tobacco in that respect; Tony Gwynn did not go out in an enviable way.

Also, in terms of psychology, drinking radioactive water is much like sticking magnets up your ass to cure whatever - it's a mysterious phenomenon, maybe it'll have mysterious powers.
Marie Curie died from exposure to alpha emission from radium and other radionuclides, as did many of her coworkers. Photographs exist of them leaning over rows of salad bowl-sized evaporating dishes to pipette liquid - by mouth pipette, no less) out of a far one, thereby getting a whole body blast of alpha particles.
But no one knew at the time. Crooke and Roentgen blasted the shit out of themselves with X-rays, not knowing the harm they cause. (Hell, I remember when shoe stores used to have fluoroscopes to check how shoes fit your feet.)

Posted by: Jay Guevara at February 02, 2015 07:08 PM (oKE6c)

440 Yes -- a home water cooler made from uranium!!!

Boil water without electricity!

Posted by: rickb223 at February 02, 2015 07:08 PM (/3AGF)

441 Vaccines don't cause autism. It just develops around the same time.

Rise of autism is due to better screening and older fathers and mothers. Older you are, more birth defects you get. Best to breed when you're young.

Posted by: Costanza Defense at February 02, 2015 07:08 PM (ZPrif)

442 >>>It feels like they are passive-aggressive shitheads who speak a lot about limited government but ally themselves at the drop of a hat with the superstate donks...

Posted by: Sven S Blade a.k.a. El Assassin@sven10077 at February 02, 2015 07:04 PM (/4AZU)>>>

I enjoy the passive-aggressive shitheads who speak a lot about limited government but then talk about the government needing to take action if there is just a small tiny chance that they might be able to maybe save one person from getting a booboo.

Posted by: gm at February 02, 2015 07:09 PM (/kBoL)

443 435
Vaccines are the media's new "Birth Control Pills" question for the
GOP -- injecting an out-of-nowhere wedge issue question into the debate
just because it hurts the GOP.
Yes, and like with BCP, some Republican politicians seem hellbent on walking right into this trap.

Posted by: MidGeorgian at February 02, 2015 07:06 PM (d9kFb)

I'm not sure where they're going with this yet. It's likely to backfire because the big anti-vaxxers are left-wing kooks.

Posted by: Dack Thrombosis at February 02, 2015 07:09 PM (oFCZn)

444 We like to think that people improve their judgment by putting their minds together, and sometimes they do. The studio audience at "Who Wants to Be a Millionaire" usually votes for the right answer. But suppose, instead of the audience members voting silently in unison, they voted out loud one after another. And suppose the first person gets it wrong.

If the second person isn't sure of the answer, he's liable to go along with the first person's guess. By then, even if the third person suspects another answer is right, she's more liable to go along just because she assumes the first two together know more than she does. Thus begins an "informational cascade" as one person after another assumes that the rest can't all be wrong.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/09/science/09tier.html

Posted by: I'm not a doctor or even an actor playing a doctor at February 02, 2015 07:09 PM (e8kgV)

445 How does this issue hurt the GOP?

Posted by: SH at February 02, 2015 07:09 PM (TrOGC)

446 I heard Ron Paul back in 1978 argue that the FDA was not needed. Dude in the audience polnted out that the governments prohibition of thalidomide around 1960 was direct cause of much lower number of deformed babies here than in Europe . Dr Paul was not impressed: had the FDA not banned thalidomide , "after the first few lawsuits the manufacturer would have pulled it from the market." Maybe so but would you want to be one of those kids or parents?

I understand the "hell yeah, FREEDOM " argument but there are things government should do . If you don't vaccinate your kids they can't go to public schools . Nor most private ones.

Posted by: Jim in Virginia at February 02, 2015 07:09 PM (jIz8A)

447 Posted by: Mr. Moo Moo at February 02, 2015 07:02 PM (0LHZx)

but this is what both sides do...

Take one instance, which will prove THEIR side, and cite it... MMR....

while ignoring the other sides examples... like the possible problems with the science and adverse reactions of Gardisil for HPV virus....

and then try to draw conclusions which affect ALL Vaccines...

Posted by: BB Wolf at February 02, 2015 07:10 PM (qh617)

448 Unless you used the uranium cooler as a pillow there was no danger to having it in the house. Since many building materials in your house are radioactive. Granite and cement being the most radioactive. But so is the sun and the earth below you.

Posted by: Redshirt at February 02, 2015 07:11 PM (Ae09I)

449 Who am I gonna believe? The scientific consensus? Penn and Teller? Or my own lying eyes?

Post hoc ergo propter hoc. There's a reason scientific testing is done by people with decades of training. The vaccine leads to autism claim is well-tested and thoroughly shit, your anecdotal evidence notwithstanding.

Posted by: bonhomme at February 02, 2015 07:11 PM (jhqr1)

450 But no, we don't need an FDA!

Trying to prevent harm requires a lot of oversight and much quashing of risk - and perhaps does not get the job done, with regulatory capture.

Making companies liable for their products would do a lot more. Same idea as punishing people in a criminal justice system instead of trying to prevent murder.

Posted by: CitizenMonster at February 02, 2015 07:11 PM (0NdlF)

451 >> Or maybe it was a damn bad "flu-like" cold that was indistinguishable from the flu.

My husband has a reaction to every vax he gets. His immune system kicks in and he feels lousy for a few days.

So, yeh, it's not exactly "getting the flu" but that don't make it fun.

And he's military and been over there twice, so he's had that looong list of shots Jane mentioned. Not fun.

The kids and I get the flu shot and it has absolutely no effect on us.

Posted by: Mama AJ at February 02, 2015 07:11 PM (0xTsz)

452 I enjoy the passive-aggressive shitheads who speak a lot about limited government but then talk about the government needing to take action if there is just a small tiny chance that they might be able to maybe save one person from getting a booboo.
---
Deadly, easily preventable diseases aren't a booboo.

Posted by: Costanza Defense at February 02, 2015 07:11 PM (ZPrif)

453 >>>Well if Ace and Rand do agree on this, why are you so worked up? I don't get it.
Posted by: Maetenloch at February 02, 2015 07:06 PM (pAlYe)>>>

What am I worked up about? I simply pointed out that despite your assertion, they didn't appear to disagree on policy, and you went full JOOOOO!!!!!

Posted by: gm at February 02, 2015 07:11 PM (/kBoL)

454 Why the 'Prius Driving, Composting' Set Fears Vaccines

Q: Are there broader lessons here about how bad information can become so pervasive?

Posted by: I'm not a doctor or even an actor playing a doctor at February 02, 2015 07:11 PM (e8kgV)

455 442 Posted by: gm at February 02, 2015 07:09 PM (/kBoL)

Maybe, that ain't me champ.

My wife gets to take the Army MEGA DOSE every time Giggles thinks she needs to take a business trip...

I'm not a huge fan of that most especially given she has one kidney.

Thing is "orders are orders"....

Luap Darn wants to Jedi handwave away minority recidivism and feeds the myth about "Chonny is gut poy....gut poy da man holdin Chonny for just a lil weed!"

you know omitting Chonny's assaults burglary etc etc etc

Anyway whatever I am probably 45% libertarian leaning but the evangelical capital L libertarians who think they need to disrupt the party to get their goldwater on with the Anti-Semite have just about worn me the fuck out.

Posted by: Sven S Blade a.k.a. El Assassin@sven10077 at February 02, 2015 07:12 PM (/4AZU)

456 How does this issue hurt the GOP?

Posted by: SH

That's what I want to know. The places in the US with the lowest vaccination rates are so deeply leftist they'd have to invite Jon Stewart over to move the average rightward.

Posted by: bonhomme at February 02, 2015 07:13 PM (jhqr1)

457

THere was an excellent study on vaccination and autism, showing that vaccines could TRIGGER autism, but did not cause it; autism was born out of a genetic defect that is triggered by an immune response. Vaccines do trigger an immune response, often a massive one, but that autism could just have easily have been triggered by the kid's first bad flu episode.

Where was that article?

Posted by: imp at February 02, 2015 07:13 PM (XIXZz)

458 If you believe in full freedom with regards to the choice to vaccinate
or not vaccinate your child, you are placing me, my family, and my
children at risk.

Kevin ... does the irony of your argument register on you ? That's EXACTLY the argument Progressives make for pretty much EVERYTHING.

Too fat ? Not eating right ? Bad enough that you're hurting you - but we're ALL connected. You're hurting me too !!!

Gun in the home ? Those bullets don't stop at just YOUR property line. No health insurance ? Dude, you're bringing down the ENTIRE SYSTEM !!!

It's no wonder the Progressives are winning the bigger battle. They've already got most of you thinking "connected". Shit, once they've got that - everything else is easy.

Posted by: ScoggDog at February 02, 2015 07:13 PM (9m68G)

459 >>>Deadly, easily preventable diseases aren't a booboo.
Posted by: Costanza Defense at February 02, 2015 07:11 PM (ZPrif)>>>

That's what is known as hyperbole. Is heart disease worse than a booboo? I can tell you that a lot more people die from that than die from measles. I assume you're down with banning red meat and salt? Heck, a lot more people die from the flu. Should we mandate vaccination for the flu? Sometimes I wonder if you people even know what "limited government" fucking means.

Posted by: gm at February 02, 2015 07:13 PM (/kBoL)

460
Posted by: MidGeorgian at February 02, 2015 07:06 PM (d9kFb)
Er, meant to put Ace's statement in italics.

Posted by: MidGeorgian at February 02, 2015 07:14 PM (d9kFb)

461 It be filled with water overnight, which would be irradiated by the
uranium and radium in the liner, and then consumed the next day. While
the health risk from radiation was low, it also contained arsenic, lead,
vanadium, and uranium."

But no, we don't need an FDA!

Drinking water irradiated by U and Ra emissions (but with no U or Ra in the water itself) is harmless (would I drink water that had been exposed to X-rays? Sure.)

Alpha particles are stopped by a piece of paper (I used to do this as a lecture demonstration), and offhand I can't think of any deleterious effect arising from alpha irradiation of water). So if there were no chemical contamination of the water, no biggie.

Posted by: Jay Guevara at February 02, 2015 07:14 PM (oKE6c)

462 What am I worked up about? I simply pointed out that despite your assertion, they didn't appear to disagree on policy, and you went full JOOOOO!!!!!
Posted by: gm at February 02, 2015 07:11 PM (/kBoL)

Okay sorry about that - I thought you were agreeing with the troll.

Posted by: Maetenloch at February 02, 2015 07:14 PM (pAlYe)

463 448 Unless you used the uranium cooler as a pillow there was no danger to having it in the house. Since many building materials in your house are radioactive. Granite and cement being the most radioactive. But so is the sun and the earth below you.
Posted by: Redshirt

I realize that. But I also had no clue just how radioactive this tank was. For all I know, the Revigator company really packed it solid with fresh radium and uranium ore.

Considering that it was an unknown entity, and that I don't own a Geiger counter, I decided to be cautious (also because there are other people in my home who didn't ask to live next to a chunk of uranium).

Posted by: zombie at February 02, 2015 07:15 PM (K4YiS)

464
453 >>>Well if Ace and Rand do agree on this, why are you so worked up? I don't get it. Posted by: Maetenloch at February 02, 2015 07:06 PM (pAlYe)>>> What am I worked up about? I simply pointed out that despite your assertion, they didn't appear to disagree on policy, and you went full JOOOOO!!!!!
Posted by: gm at February 02, 2015 07:11 PM (/kBoL)

I thought he was mocking hector who claimed that ace's post was to satisfy his neo-con Joo masters.

Posted by: buzzion at February 02, 2015 07:15 PM (z/Ubi)

465 Thus begins an "informational cascade" as one person after another assumes that the rest can't all be wrong.

Modern science.

See: Global warming, diet fads ...

There was a scientific study on repeatability of scientific study results. They didn't do that great.

Posted by: CitizenMonster at February 02, 2015 07:15 PM (0NdlF)

466 Oh no. This is really bad.

A baby at a infant/child center at a high school has measles. There are 24 other infants under the age of 1 at the center. None would have been vaccinated since it's a 12-15 month vaccine.

Posted by: Lauren at February 02, 2015 07:15 PM (MYCIw)

467 Posted by: Sven S Blade a.k.a. El Assassin@sven10077 at February 02, 2015 07:12 PM (/4AZU)

Yup.... but what do we call those of us who are not Loony Libertarians...

But think the GOP draws the line way too far towards Stateism? and telling people how to live through Government...

Its a question of where the line is....

Posted by: BB Wolf at February 02, 2015 07:16 PM (qh617)

468 Vaccines are the media's new "Birth Control Pills" question for the

GOP -- injecting an out-of-nowhere wedge issue question into the debate

just because it hurts the GOP.
Yes, and like with BCP, some Republican politicians seem hellbent on walking right into this trap.

Posted by: MidGeorgian at February 02, 2015 07:06 PM (d9kFb)

The media is always going to set these traps for the GOP. That is why the GOP needs to come up a FYNQ, why don't ask my opponent about... kind of response. Like I said before, the GOP shouldn't be in the business of self-policing their own loons.

Posted by: cm9000 at February 02, 2015 07:17 PM (8zCR+)

469 466 Posted by: Lauren at February 02, 2015 07:15 PM (MYCIw)

Dude....you can't force totally preventable diseases to be taken from the public air by you know vaccinating fuckers from it...

I miss Polio and rubella is pretty gnarly....

one of the nice byproducts of AMIGO GRANDE! is TB is making a comeback.....

Jenny McCarthy's precious kids trump those infants....

//says no sane person ever

I miss the country we were in the 70s and 80s

Posted by: Sven S Blade a.k.a. El Assassin@sven10077 at February 02, 2015 07:17 PM (/4AZU)

470 My husband has a reaction to every vax he gets. His immune system kicks in and he feels lousy for a few days.

That's what's supposed to happen. Many of the subjective symptoms of diseases result from the immune system's response to the disease, not the disease itself.

Posted by: Jay Guevara at February 02, 2015 07:17 PM (oKE6c)

471

I'm eating a chicken boob, rice and veggies, and a couple slices of bread. And a pickle.

Posted by: Soothsayer at February 02, 2015 07:17 PM (kgXbV)

472 MILITARIZED THUG MMR SHOTS!!!!!!11!!

Just saying

Posted by: Navycopjoe at February 02, 2015 07:17 PM (QY6Dj)

473 Scogg:

You eating too much doesn't hurt me. Might drive up my medical costs. I'm not physically harmed.

No health insurance? Same thing. I'm not physically harmed. I might pay more to cover yours (or someone else's) inability to pay.

Gun in the home? I presume you are smart enough to keep it locked up, away from the ammunition. If I come knocking at the door I presume you're also stable enough not to shoot me.

Once you have it, you have no control over a virus.

Posted by: Kevin in ABQ at February 02, 2015 07:18 PM (BvTwT)

474

It's no wonder the Progressives are winning the bigger battle. They've already got most of you thinking "connected".

Um, herd immunity is inherently connected in a way those other things are not.

Still, vaccinate your own kids and keep them away from unvaccinated kids if they are too young to have gotten the vax.

Posted by: imp at February 02, 2015 07:18 PM (XIXZz)

475 Modern science.

See: Global warming, diet fads ...

There was a scientific study on repeatability of scientific study results. They didn't do that great.

Posted by: CitizenMonster at February 02, 2015 07:15 PM (0NdlF)

Which then devolves into credentialism.... as in Scientists say X.... and when you refute X with facts, they then say... 'well... its complicated'....

Posted by: BB Wolf at February 02, 2015 07:19 PM (qh617)

476 A baby at a infant/child center at a high school

That's how far we've sunk; we have infant day care centers in high schools.

Posted by: Jay Guevara at February 02, 2015 07:19 PM (oKE6c)

477 I'd like to offer up a prediction.

The anti-vax people won't admit they are wrong, even if people die from measles.

They will claim their kids' "natural" immunity from measles is better than the vax.

They will say that fewer kids died from measles than would have died from getting the vax.

Ah heck, it's probably not much of a prediction because I'm sure they are already saying it.

Posted by: Mama AJ at February 02, 2015 07:19 PM (0xTsz)

478 467 Posted by: BB Wolf at February 02, 2015 07:16 PM (qh617)

90% of this angst is artificial chum throwing and water churning by the newsies...

and 5% of it is our side being too weak assed to attack the idiocy the left's entertainer lunatic fringe generates with enough aplomb....

but yeah we are DOOMED to endure the superstate with a decided banana flavor to it because the libertarian evangelicals refuse to see that "they check in but never check out" is useful for a mouse trap...not so much for unilateral open borders.

Posted by: Sven S Blade a.k.a. El Assassin@sven10077 at February 02, 2015 07:19 PM (/4AZU)

479 Soothsayer ... STOP !!!

That bread has glutens, and too much starch. And I see no fruit.

Look man, it's not like you have the right to hurt yourself, which sooner or later is going to hurt me.

This shit has to stop.

Posted by: ScoggDog at February 02, 2015 07:19 PM (9m68G)

480 I'm eating a chicken boob, rice and veggies, and a couple slices of bread. And a pickle.

How big is the boob?

I'm asking for a friend.

Posted by: The Chicken at February 02, 2015 07:19 PM (8ZskC)

481
Ace, show me on this pickle where Rand Paul touched you.

Posted by: Soothsayer at February 02, 2015 07:19 PM (kgXbV)

482 >>>466 Oh no. This is really bad.

A baby at a infant/child center at a high school has measles. There are 24 other infants under the age of 1 at the center. None would have been vaccinated since it's a 12-15 month vaccine.

Posted by: Lauren at February 02, 2015 07:15 PM (MYCIw)>>>

And they aren't fully immunized until they get their second shot. Normally they don't do the second until the kid is 5 y/o, but I'm getting my 4 y/o twins in there this month to get the second shot. That said, my cousins' 9 kids don't have any vaccinations. The kids are all home schooled, so hopefully they don't get exposed, but I worry about those kids.

Posted by: gm at February 02, 2015 07:19 PM (/kBoL)

483

Death sez:

Variola is only a matter of time...

Posted by: imp at February 02, 2015 07:20 PM (XIXZz)

484 How does this issue hurt the GOP?

Posted by: SH at February 02, 2015 07:09 PM (TrOGC)

Well, when you have a history of repeatedly shooting yourself in the foot...

Posted by: cm9000 at February 02, 2015 07:20 PM (8zCR+)

485 I don't' see what the problem is with getting poked over and over again.

Posted by: Sandra Fluke at February 02, 2015 07:20 PM (Msg5U)

486 A baby at a infant/child center at a high school

Infants in a high school, you say. Vaccinations and measles are probably the least of their worries.

Posted by: CitizenMonster at February 02, 2015 07:20 PM (0NdlF)

487 Maybe we should just legalize drugs just so the libertarians will shut the hell up and go away

Posted by: Navycopjoe at February 02, 2015 07:21 PM (QY6Dj)

488 >>That's what's supposed to happen.

Oh, so you're saying he's doing it right and I'm doing it wrong??

;-)

Posted by: Mama AJ at February 02, 2015 07:21 PM (0xTsz)

489 Posted by: ScoggDog at February 02, 2015 07:13 PM (9m68G)

Your eating habits don't increase my risk of having a heart attack. Your refusal to vaccinate your children increases my risk of contracting a crippling disease.

And most local governments have restrictions against discharging firearms inside city limits precisely because bullets don't stop at property lines. When you're living in close proximity, it reduces the risk of someone accidentally being shot.

Don't like those rules? Go live out in the middle of nowhere and stay the fuck away from civilized human beings.

Posted by: Colorado Alex at February 02, 2015 07:21 PM (10ydV)

490 Considering that it was an unknown entity, and that I don't own a Geiger counter, I decided to be cautious (also because there are other people in my home who didn't ask to live next to a chunk of uranium).))

ALRA is the best way to treat radiation. But people fear it like guns. Like it can chase you down and kill you at will.

Posted by: Redshirt at February 02, 2015 07:21 PM (Ae09I)

491 I don't' see what the problem is with getting poked over and over again.
Posted by: Sandra Fluke at February 02, 2015 07:20 PM (Msg5U)

Depends on who's doing the poking.

Posted by: Lena Dunham at February 02, 2015 07:21 PM (8ZskC)

492 487 Posted by: Navycopjoe at February 02, 2015 07:21 PM (QY6Dj)

then prostitution

goat marriage

I am thinking there is a REALLY REALLY long list of libertine shit before they get around to "take EPA's dick out of America's ass and allow freedom to reiogn on mining and energy"....

a LONG LONG LONG list NCJ....

Posted by: Sven S Blade a.k.a. El Assassin@sven10077 at February 02, 2015 07:22 PM (/4AZU)

493 >>>and 5% of it is our side being too weak assed to attack the idiocy the left's entertainer lunatic fringe generates with enough aplomb....

Posted by: Sven S Blade a.k.a. El Assassin@sven10077 at February 02, 2015 07:19 PM (/4AZU)>>>

What I'm pissed about is Rand saying something so stupid, even if it doesn't affect his policy position because I think he's one of the few pols (along with Cruz and maybe Walker - had hopes for Lee too, but this new tax plan of his has hurt my opinion of him much more than this stupid "Tardasil" comment) who might actually shrink the government if given the power to do so.

Posted by: gm at February 02, 2015 07:22 PM (/kBoL)

494 Okay let me see, is it not true if you chose to have your child vaccinated and get exposed your child is protected against whatever virus you are exposed to that your were vaccinated against. So why should you care if another parent chooses to not vaccinate their child. That child is the one at risk. Next yes there are some children that can have some tragic reactions to a lot of different vaccines introduced into their bodies at the same time. Too many at one time is not good. One size does not fit all. A parent should be able to say lets wait until 9 mos or a year to give their child a vaccine if they choose to. This is not the same thing as being against vaccinations. I for one do not think all the shots given are necessary for flu and etc. They need to get the mercury out of the shots and I will give them more of a consideration.

Posted by: alborn at February 02, 2015 07:23 PM (Csbr0)

495 Posted by: Sven S Blade a.k.a. El Assassin@sven10077 at February 02, 2015 07:19 PM (/4AZU)

Then you get to the...

What is a person who believes in Liberty, in small Government.... in not needlessly getting involved in other countries crap....

But is also for closed borders, strong citizenship laws, and is Pro REAL Fuck em up Military...

Which is why I'm registered as an independent.... not a Libertarian OR Republican...

Posted by: BB Wolf at February 02, 2015 07:23 PM (qh617)

496 "That's how far we've sunk; we have infant day care centers in high schools."

My husband taught at a school that had one. Even the Valedictorian was pregnant. She was planning to place her baby for adoption though.

Apparently at the school with the outbreak it's a mix of teachers' kids and students' kids, but still! I definitely agree with your point.

Posted by: Lauren at February 02, 2015 07:23 PM (MYCIw)

497 Infants in a high school, you say. Vaccinations and measles are probably the least of their worries.

If you're an incoming freshman who can actually fit in a locker, you have a problem.

Posted by: Cicero (@cicero) at February 02, 2015 07:24 PM (8ZskC)

498 >>>Your eating habits don't increase my risk of having a heart attack. Your refusal to vaccinate your children increases my risk of contracting a crippling disease.

Posted by: Colorado Alex at February 02, 2015 07:21 PM (10ydV)>>>

The fuck it doesn't. What if I have a heart attack while driving a tractor trailer?

Posted by: gm at February 02, 2015 07:24 PM (/kBoL)

499 Earlier Monday, Christie waddled into the vaccination debate

Posted by: wth at February 02, 2015 07:24 PM (wAQA5)

500 449 Who am I gonna believe? The scientific consensus? Penn and Teller? Or my own lying eyes?

Post hoc ergo propter hoc. There's a reason scientific testing is done by people with decades of training. The vaccine leads to autism claim is well-tested and thoroughly shit, your anecdotal evidence notwithstanding.
Posted by: bonhomme at February 02, 2015 07:11 PM (jhqr1)

Global warming is "well-tested" by people with decades of training, too. There's a consensus on vaccines, as well.

My kids' brains weren't worth the risk until they pulled out of the age range where post hoc ergo procter hoc.

Again, no ill will to you.

Posted by: Anon at February 02, 2015 07:24 PM (yxw0r)

501
Whenever this question is asked, simply re-phrase the question back to the reporter with the proper inflection:
Reporter - "Governor, do you support mandatory vaccination for all children?"
Governor "Are you asking if I support the government forcing medical procedures on children against the wishes of their family?"
Reporter - "Uh...well...for the good of all...ahem..."

Posted by: Arctic Joe at February 02, 2015 07:24 PM (F192H)

502 There was a scientific study on repeatability of scientific study results. They didn't do that great.

Posted by: CitizenMonster at February 02, 2015 07:15 PM (0NdlF)

That article was concerned with the biomedical/ molecular biology research literature, which is notoriously bad, for several reasons. One is that the people who go into it tend not to be the greatest researchers on the planet, and tend to ascribe irreproducible results to "biological variation." There's some merit in that, but they use it to explain away any set of conflicting results, and don't bother to iron out uncontrolled variables and nail down what's going on. Instead, they tend to shrug and say, "Isn't Nature grand?", publish, and move on.

The literature in physics and chemistry is generally sound, with the rare occasion of bogus or fraudulent results quickly unmasked. This comment does not refer to climastrology, or other highly politicized subfields.

Posted by: Jay Guevara at February 02, 2015 07:24 PM (oKE6c)

503 Here's the thing Kevin ... I don't.

Guns are pretty much useless when unloaded and locked up. Hence, mine personal self-defense favorites are loaded and available. But rest assured, you're safe as a babe in your mother's arms ... as long as you knock. So - since I'm "not smart enough" to store guns "YOUR WAY" - what are we to do ?

That's why I prefer Federalism. The State of Indiana says my way is just fine. I really don't care that California says differently. Because, honestly, I don't care how many Californians die during home invasions. And if Indiana changes the rules, I've always got the option of changing States.

So - where do we draw the lines of what's "acceptable community risk" ? Only one way - as low down the chain as possible. State where possible rather than Federal, Local where possible rather than State.

Posted by: ScoggDog at February 02, 2015 07:25 PM (9m68G)

504 Vaccines are not 100% effective.

Apparently, being 99.6% effective just isn't good enough.

Posted by: Grampa Jimbo at February 02, 2015 07:25 PM (V70Uh)

505 No candidate is perfect.... and I vaccinated my kids.
But... I do believe it's my choice as a parent.
I'm still open to Rand Paul as a candidate.

Posted by: matthewjohn at February 02, 2015 07:26 PM (7pEow)

506 My midichlorian count has dropped to near zero since I got vaccinated for rubella, along with my acting ability.

Posted by: Anakin Skywalker at February 02, 2015 07:26 PM (8ZskC)

507 You don't have a geiger counter in your home??

Sorry, but that's just sad.

Posted by: Sheldon Cooper at February 02, 2015 07:26 PM (zxQ4h)

508 *wanders along swigging from a half-pint of Jagermeister*

In these troubled times everyone should own a Geiger counter .... if something happens, you gonna believe the numbers the government puts out on the teevee ?

If I've learned one thing over the years it would be something along the lines of "the more instrumentation you own, the less you gotta take on faith".

Posted by: sock_rat_eez at February 02, 2015 07:27 PM (OCcU9)

509 Global warming is "well-tested" by people with decades of training, too.

No, it isn't. It hasn't been tested at all yet. In fact, how would you test it? It's merely a conjecture.

Posted by: Jay Guevara at February 02, 2015 07:27 PM (oKE6c)

510 Try getting your unvaccinated kids into a good private school.

Posted by: Grampa Jimbo at February 02, 2015 07:27 PM (V70Uh)

511 New Jersey Gov. Chris Christie waddled back comments

Posted by: wth at February 02, 2015 07:27 PM (wAQA5)

512 505 Posted by: matthewjohn at February 02, 2015 07:26 PM (7pEow)

Great and like I said you just show me which laws and traditions I get to ignore at whim and not have BATF, IRS, or EPA show up and roust me...

I am pretty against the vampiric taxes of IRS and regulatory fiat of EPA....think I can just shrug?

Posted by: Sven S Blade a.k.a. El Assassin@sven10077 at February 02, 2015 07:27 PM (/4AZU)

513 504. Apparently, being 99.6% effective just isn't good enough.

-condoms
-bulletproof vests
-prison door
-gun safety

Posted by: Navycopjoe at February 02, 2015 07:27 PM (QY6Dj)

514 >>> A baby at a infant/child center at a high school

"That's how far we've sunk; we have infant day care centers in high schools."

You should come with me for a drive some time.

We'll go by the welfare benefit disbursements office. The one with the great big sign reading "CENTRO DEL SERVICIOS". And the long queue of Hispanic teen girls with strollers waiting at the light to cross to get them some servicios courtesy of los gringos.

I would bet that some of those girls pushing the strollers are themselves not much older than 12. So pretty soon we're going to have to have "infant and child centers" in the junior high schools, too.

Posted by: torquewrench at February 02, 2015 07:27 PM (noWW6)

515 #18, stop impersonating me, you vile Reich-wing whore. Go die in a fucking fire. Immediately.

Posted by: Mary Cloggenstein from Brattleboro, VT at February 02, 2015 07:27 PM (Iq27Y)

516 "So why should you care if another parent chooses to not vaccinate their child. That child is the one at risk"

This high school day care outbreak is a really good illustration.

The first person who came down with it was a coach in his 40s who was vaccinated, but was part of a cohort that got a bad batch ( I can't remember the exact dates but I want to say mid-late 70s). So he catches it and brings it to the school.

Then it goes among the students, until it somehow gets to the daycare. Now we're in a disaster situation because many of the day care children are too young to have even one dose of the vaccine, and it's unlikely that any have had the second dose.

All because someone unvaccinated infected the improperly vaccinated adult.

Posted by: Lauren at February 02, 2015 07:28 PM (MYCIw)

517 Vaccines are not 100% effective.

Condoms aren't 100% effective either, which is how we got JEF.

Posted by: Jay Guevara at February 02, 2015 07:28 PM (oKE6c)

518 Comparing global warming to vaccines is dumb. We have tons of actual experiments and experience with vaccines. Global warming research is done with computer models.

Posted by: Costanza Defense at February 02, 2015 07:28 PM (ZPrif)

519 426. libertarians will not forget these smears against Paul and we will not vote GOP in 2016. You will lose.

RINO Ron Paul ran for president in 1988 as a libertarian , resulting in Michael Dukakis' election

Posted by: Jim in Virginia at February 02, 2015 07:28 PM (jIz8A)

520 517 Posted by: Jay Guevara at February 02, 2015 07:28 PM (oKE6c)

I'm pretty sure "my typical white momma" as he says felt she had a duty to get knocked up "for the struggle"...

fucking monstrous family.

Posted by: Sven S Blade a.k.a. El Assassin@sven10077 at February 02, 2015 07:29 PM (/4AZU)

521 >>>Global warming is "well-tested" by people with decades of training, too. There's a consensus on vaccines, as well.

Posted by: Anon at February 02, 2015 07:24 PM (yxw0r)>>>

But, the demonstrable fraud in the vaccination science is on the side claiming a link between vaccinations and autism. The demonstrable fraud in global warming "science" is on the side claiming anthropogenic global warming.

Posted by: gm at February 02, 2015 07:29 PM (/kBoL)

522 Had scarlet fever, mumps, measles, the pox, diphtheria, worms. I lived. Would not wish anyone else to have go there.

You moderns have no idea. Try coming from a large family.
Oh wait, they are all dead from preventable pathogens.

Not to put anyone in charge. Just let the sick and the dying get some options, rather than opnions.

Posted by: neal at February 02, 2015 07:30 PM (OBxdH)

523 BB Wolf ... cut. jib. newsletter.

Posted by: ScoggDog at February 02, 2015 07:30 PM (9m68G)

524 518 Posted by: Costanza Defense at February 02, 2015 07:28 PM (ZPrif)

and slumber parties in East Anglia....

//Michael Mann(no not the cool one the other one)

Posted by: Sven S Blade a.k.a. El Assassin@sven10077 at February 02, 2015 07:30 PM (/4AZU)

525 So, One Mary Cloggenstein sock is attacking a different Mary Cloggenstein sock?

Catfight!

Let go get some popcorn.

Posted by: Grampa Jimbo at February 02, 2015 07:30 PM (V70Uh)

526
509 Global warming is "well-tested" by people with decades of training, too.No, it isn't. It hasn't been tested at all yet. In fact, how would you test it? It's merely a conjecture.
Posted by: Jay Guevara at February 02, 2015 07:27 PM (oKE6c)

Man Made Global Warming is the "Vaccinations cause Autism" argument.

Posted by: buzzion at February 02, 2015 07:31 PM (z/Ubi)

527 >>> Ace is smearing Rand Paul at the behest of his neocon pay masters.

I want my cut for posting comments.

Posted by: fluffy at February 02, 2015 07:31 PM (Ua6T/)

528 486 A baby at a infant/child center at a high school

Infants in a high school, you say. Vaccinations and measles are probably the least of their worries.

Posted by: CitizenMonster at February 02, 2015 07:20 PM (0NdlF)

Yeah, the drive-bys are probably a much bigger problem.

Posted by: Jay Guevara at February 02, 2015 07:31 PM (oKE6c)

529 What I'm pissed about is Rand saying something so
stupid, even if it doesn't affect his policy position because I think
he's one of the few pols (along with Cruz and maybe Walker - had hopes
for Lee too, but this new tax plan of his has hurt my opinion of him
much more than this stupid "Tardasil" comment) who might actually shrink
the government if given the power to do so.

Posted by: gm at February 02, 2015 07:22 PM (/kBoL)

You are right that Rand, if given the power, would shrink the government and that is my far and away top concern. Thats why I really don't care if he appeals to a fringe if it advances the overriding goal.

Posted by: cm9000 at February 02, 2015 07:31 PM (8zCR+)

530 "As a young kid (born in 1957), there weren't vaccines for measles, German measles, mumps, or chickenpox. The old-fashioned solution was simple: expose your kid to them, so they'd catch it and "get it over with." I've had all four."

Huh? I'm two years younger than you and I remember getting a number of shots at my parochial school. I recall getting mumps but I'm pretty sure I got vaccinated for the other stuff.

Posted by: Donna &&&&&& V. (brandishing ampersands & not bitter at all over the Super Bowl. No really, honest.) at February 02, 2015 07:31 PM (+XMAD)

531 I'd like to hear more about all those shots we lined up for to go over-seas. That never did sit right with me.

Posted by: dartist at February 02, 2015 07:32 PM (ahBY0)

532
Look, you are an idiot not to get your kid vaccinated. Full stop. However, not getting vaccinated mostly ruins the lives of you, and other, similar idiots. Hard to get too upset about it...
By the by, progressive hippies and the Amish seem to be the largest components of the anti-vaccine movement, so I actually think this attack by journalists helps us. Trust me - S.F.is a hotbed of anti-science beliefs.

Posted by: Dr. McCoy at February 02, 2015 07:32 PM (F192H)

533 527. Why is it when you mention rand or Ron Paul all the crazies come out?

Posted by: Navycopjoe at February 02, 2015 07:32 PM (QY6Dj)

534
Jay - exactly the formulation I use (for greatest shock, and in the rare cases where there are enough lights on in the other house to understand it) - AGW is at best a conjecture. One might break it down into many wily audacious hypotheses, I guess, or at least parts of it. But most of those are not falsifiable (testable) either.

But I find even Spencer stipulates gigantic, key parts of the whole conjecture. Such as "climate forcing". If one cannot characterize (explain) a system or a system of systems, accounting for past results, and fully (fully) linking all causative factors and their magnitudes, how can one even use the concept of "forcing"? "Forcing" vs. which other path - and on what basis is one or the other the most likely, "natural", or "correct" path?

It's almost an exercise in pure logical fallacy, with lots of Latin terms applying. But even "skeptics" (as if that is some sort of special category in any other field of real science, ever) seem to implicitly accept many of the worst, central fallacies of the control freaks, er, environmentalists.

Posted by: rhomboid at February 02, 2015 07:33 PM (afQnV)

535 530 Posted by: Donna V. (brandishing
ampersands not bitter at all over the Super Bowl. No really,
honest.) at February 02, 2015 07:31 PM (+XMAD)

Some parts of the country bled in later Donna...

My sister in 59 in Ohio wasn't immunized my sister in 61 was the first and by 63 with my last sister it was the norm IIRC...

I'll ask.

Posted by: Sven S Blade a.k.a. El Assassin@sven10077 at February 02, 2015 07:33 PM (/4AZU)

536 Man Made Global Warming is the "Vaccinations cause Autism" argument.

Posted by: buzzion at February 02, 2015 07:31 PM (z/Ubi)
Yep, but it's even worse than that. The "vaccinations cause autism" conjecture is testable, and therefore appropriate for use of the scientific method.

The AGW conjecture is not. How exactly would you test it? What would be the control? As a conjecture AGW is in the class of asserting that the sun will go into super nova in 100 years. The only way to find out is to wait 100 years and see.

Posted by: Jay Guevara at February 02, 2015 07:34 PM (oKE6c)

537 #18, stop impersonating me, you vile Reich-wing whore. Go die in a fucking fire. Immediately.Posted by: Mary Cloggenstein from Brattleboro, VT at February 02, 2015 07:27 PM (Iq27Y)...........................Mary you sound cute. A real firecracker in the sack I bet. Link some pics, K?

Posted by: wth at February 02, 2015 07:34 PM (wAQA5)

538 Funny how the Democrat News Media does not mention that Obama imported diseases by opening the border.

Posted by: WannabeAnglican at February 02, 2015 07:34 PM (UaV8u)

539 There's only one way to inoculate yourself against boobonic plague.

Posted by: Federal Bikini Inspector at February 02, 2015 07:35 PM (t+7Ge)

540 531. The anthrax shots?
#3 and 4 were motherfuckers
Like knee on the ground in pain mofos

Posted by: Navycopjoe at February 02, 2015 07:35 PM (QY6Dj)

541 531 Posted by: dartist at February 02, 2015 07:32 PM (ahBY0)

Oh think about this....

My wife was short cocked and went from 'ghani to iraq with a 6 month 1 day gap....

got the full MEGA PILL routine both times....

with her kidney issues and kidney stress is a known risk factor...

but yeah little sally shouldn't get the Polio vaccine...it's important we let nature make a comeback.

Posted by: Sven S Blade a.k.a. El Assassin@sven10077 at February 02, 2015 07:35 PM (/4AZU)

542 ""We have to accept the risk that an 80 year old driver may have a stroke and plow into us or our kids. We do not dragoon him to the DMV every month for a check-up; some small level of risk we are required to bear.""

Drive around toms river NJ for a day and not only would you want them tested weekly, but their licenses pulled and their cars crushed.

Posted by: Berserker-Dragonheads Division at February 02, 2015 07:35 PM (FMbng)

543 Yes, Scogg, but I'm knocking on your door. I'm following the rules of a civilized society. Store your guns how you like, within the law in your state/municipality, I don't care. As long as I'm following the rules of a civilized society, I expect a like response (besides, I'm bringing the euchre deck).

Viruses don't follow the rules of a civilized society. They rely on our free and safe interchange and interaction to spread.

When Salk and Sabin finished their work on polio in the 50s, it was in the wake of an epidemic - 35,000 cases in the US alone in 1953, 58,000 in 1952, up from an average of around 20,000. By 1961 there were 161.

Posted by: Kevin in ABQ at February 02, 2015 07:35 PM (BvTwT)

544 Huh? I'm two years younger than you and I remember getting a number of shots at my parochial school. I recall getting mumps but I'm pretty sure I got vaccinated for the other stuff.
Posted by: Donna V. (brandishing ampersands not bitter at all over the Super Bowl. No really, honest.) at February 02, 2015 07:31 PM (+XMAD)

According to Wikipedia the first licensed vaccine only appeared in 1963 although there may have been some experimental ones before that. The virus wasn't even isolated until 1954.

Posted by: Maetenloch at February 02, 2015 07:36 PM (pAlYe)

545 My wife was short cocked ...

SVEN !!! Phrasing, my man. Phrasing !!!

Posted by: ScoggDog at February 02, 2015 07:36 PM (9m68G)

546 540 Posted by: Navycopjoe at February 02, 2015 07:35 PM (QY6Dj)

even more fun when it was "the golf ball"....

b/c yes it was a gold ball sized bunch of goop in your ass cheek.

Posted by: Sven S Blade a.k.a. El Assassin@sven10077 at February 02, 2015 07:36 PM (/4AZU)

547 >>>518 Comparing global warming to vaccines is dumb. We have tons of actual experiments and experience with vaccines. Global warming research is done with computer models.
Posted by: Costanza Defense at February 02, 2015 07:28 PM (ZPrif)>>>

Well, the computer models are used to predict results based on theory; those models and theory being routinely disproven by reality. Just like the theories of links between vaccines and autism are routinely disproven by reality.

Posted by: gm at February 02, 2015 07:36 PM (/kBoL)

548 I got shots when I started school and I actually got smarter by the time I hit grade 8.

Posted by: otho at February 02, 2015 07:37 PM (tBSrv)

549 Wait why would I vaccinate against the boobonic plague? I want magnets to attract it to my house.

Posted by: Redshirt at February 02, 2015 07:37 PM (Ae09I)

550 then harvest a certain number each year for matzoh for Passover.

Only because they're force to compete with Big Saltine.

Posted by: You have nothing to fear from the Nabisco Brothers at February 02, 2015 07:38 PM (DL2i+)

551 So .. vaccines aren't 100% effective. And, we cannot know with 100% certainty that vaccines don't cause retardation or autism or some other debilitating side effect at some point in a person's life. What's a statist who wants to mandate action to do?!?!

Posted by: gm at February 02, 2015 07:38 PM (/kBoL)

552
There's only one way to inoculate yourself against boobonic plague.
Posted by: Federal Bikini Inspector at February 02, 2015 07:35 PM (t+7Ge)
.........................
Motorboating?

Posted by: wth at February 02, 2015 07:38 PM (wAQA5)

553 546. That one is day three of boot camp
You have to sit there and beat on your ass to get it too disperse faster or there's no sleeping

Posted by: Navycopjoe at February 02, 2015 07:39 PM (QY6Dj)

554 why would I vaccinate against the boobonic plague?

Therein lies the rub.

Posted by: Federal Bikini Inspector at February 02, 2015 07:39 PM (t+7Ge)

555 Motorboating?

Posted by: wth

FTW !

Posted by: sock_rat_eez at February 02, 2015 07:40 PM (OCcU9)

556 Obama was an "anti-vaxxer" in 2008. How about we use this against the Dums rather than attacking each other? See the sock link.

Posted by: andycanuck at February 02, 2015 07:40 PM (L6/+u)

557 You don't want to vaccinate your kids? Fine. Home school them.

That way they cannot infect the other kids and the teachers cannot infect them with Communism.

Posted by: Grampa Jimbo at February 02, 2015 07:40 PM (V70Uh)

558 So...it seems the consensus is most people think vaccinating children against really terrible, life-threatening, epidemic-causing diseases is the correct choice. Others think we need to go back to the gold standard and allow racists to spew evil our names.

*runs away from explosion*

Posted by: Turd Ferguson at February 02, 2015 07:41 PM (VAsIq)

559 (besides, I'm bringing the euchre deck)

Somebodies at least BEEN to Indiana.

And look - I'm ALL IN on the State of Indiana deciding what vax I must have ... I did the research with both kids and decided the Indiana minimum was prudent. If I had a problem with it, I flat out would have moved. I'm also cool with California choosing for themselves. I'm NOT cool with the FED making that decision.

Because I'm decidedly NOT an Evangelical Libertarian. It sucks out loud to cede freedoms for security - but there it is. Running a society is a messy damned business. All I want is those decisions to be as decentralized and localized as possible. I trust that method for all the same reasons I trust Capitalism.

Posted by: ScoggDog at February 02, 2015 07:41 PM (9m68G)

560 553 Posted by: Navycopjoe at February 02, 2015 07:39 PM (QY6Dj)

We got the golf ball and full battery at benning in dec 90/jan 91 depending when DA thought the war would be bad....

the golf ball sucked and like an idiot I was volunteered to go first before I could thaw it at all...

the air gun innoculations were "meh" but I flinched on one part of the battery....

We really thought as a force the war would be worse than it was I guess...

Posted by: Sven S Blade a.k.a. El Assassin@sven10077 at February 02, 2015 07:42 PM (/4AZU)

561 When Salk and Sabin finished their work on polio in the 50s, it was in
the wake of an epidemic - 35,000 cases in the US alone in 1953, 58,000
in 1952, up from an average of around 20,000. By 1961 there were 161.

Shit, I didn't know that. I was born in 54 and I distinctly remember lining up for shots in 1960 for first grade.

Posted by: dartist at February 02, 2015 07:42 PM (ahBY0)

562 >>> Ace is smearing Rand Paul at the behest of his neocon pay masters.

I want my cut for posting comments.

It's a sliding scale with a minimum commenting quota.

Posted by: toby928(C) at February 02, 2015 07:42 PM (rwI+c)

563 The AGW conjecture is not. How exactly would you test it?

See if the short term predictions of ~~Global Warming~~ Climate Change pan out.

How's that loss of snowfall in in Britain and NE?

I don't think you can salvage Science! Leftists took it over, and now's it's just a meme for people to Fucking Love.

Posted by: CitizenMonster at February 02, 2015 07:42 PM (0NdlF)

564 Jay - exactly the formulation I use (for greatest
shock, and in the rare cases where there are enough lights on in the
other house to understand it) - AGW is at best a conjecture. One might
break it down into many wily audacious hypotheses, I guess, or at least
parts of it. But most of those are not falsifiable (testable) either.

But
I find even Spencer stipulates gigantic, key parts of the whole
conjecture. Such as "climate forcing". If one cannot characterize
(explain) a system or a system of systems, accounting for past results,
and fully (fully) linking all causative factors and their magnitudes,
how can one even use the concept of "forcing"? "Forcing" vs. which other
path - and on what basis is one or the other the most likely,
"natural", or "correct" path?

It's almost an exercise in pure
logical fallacy, with lots of Latin terms applying. But even "skeptics"
(as if that is some sort of special category in any other field of real
science, ever) seem to implicitly accept many of the worst, central
fallacies of the control freaks, er, environmentalists.

Posted by: rhomboid at February 02, 2015 07:33 PM (afQnV)
A man after my own heart. I distinguish a conjecture (from the Latin, meaning "a wild-eyed guess") from a hypothesis (from the Greek, meaning "a wild-eyed guess that can actually be falsified") from a theory (a hypothesis that has borne up under many rigorous tests, over a considerable period, and therefore provisionally is considered sound conceptually, contra colloquial usage of "theory" meaning "a wild-eyed guess").
But consider the hubris of the warmers. I'd blanch at the prospect of predicting how a series of coupled partial differential equations would interact, especially when we not only don't know the cross-terms , but probably don't even know for sure all the phenomena* that need to be considered. But that's me.
* My favorite story: some AGW high priests published recently that they'd forgotten to include emissions from the 35 active volcanoes in their model. Oops.

Posted by: Jay Guevara at February 02, 2015 07:42 PM (oKE6c)

565 551 So .. vaccines aren't 100% effective. And, we cannot know with 100% certainty that vaccines don't cause retardation or autism or some other debilitating side effect at some point in a person's life. What's a statist who wants to mandate action to do?!?!
Posted by: gm at February 02, 2015 07:38 PM (/kBoL)

Nirvana Fallacy. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nirvana_fallacy)

Posted by: Maetenloch at February 02, 2015 07:42 PM (pAlYe)

566 Funny how the Democrat News Media does not mention that Obama imported diseases by opening the border.

Posted by: WannabeAnglican at February 02, 2015 07:34 PM (UaV8u)

Actually they do, but only to say that if you notice it you are a whack job and probably a racist.

Posted by: cm9000 at February 02, 2015 07:43 PM (8zCR+)

567 Much as I love you guys, you're not using force of law to inject stuff into my children.

Again, for the record, theyre vaccinated now.

But mine take precedence over yours until you jail me or kill me.

I think you'd say the same.

Posted by: Anon at February 02, 2015 07:43 PM (yxw0r)

568 Running a society is a messy damned business. All I want is those decisions to be as decentralized and localized as possible. I trust that method for all the same reasons I trust Capitalism.

Well put. Good enough is good enough if you believe in self-government.

Posted by: toby928(C) at February 02, 2015 07:44 PM (rwI+c)

569 Posted by: Anon at February 02, 2015 07:24 PM (yxw0r)

The doctor who came up with the "vaccines cause autism" meme has admitted it was a fraud.

Like another commenter, I too have a cousin - a much older one - who got polio when she was a child and ended up in a wheelchair. Those older than me can remember the fear American parents felt every summer during polio season.

The advances made in medical care and our knowledge of immunology during the past 65 years or so have been nothing short of miraculous .

But hey, we haven't had had any epidemics or children dying en masse of communicable diseases lately so let's forget about modern medicine and take a trip down memory lane.

Posted by: Donna &&&&&& V. (brandishing ampersands & not bitter at all over the Super Bowl. No really, honest.) at February 02, 2015 07:44 PM (+XMAD)

570 Want to be 100% sure your children are safe . Don't Fuck.

Posted by: Redshirt at February 02, 2015 07:44 PM (Ae09I)

571 'On the other hand, while I would allow anti-vaccers to put their kids in jeopardy rather than abridge their freedoms, certainly I would not attempt to play to their paranoias, nor stoke them.'

Question: would you also allow the anti-vaccers to put other children in jeopardy?

That's the big question.

Posted by: Nate at February 02, 2015 07:45 PM (UlZXf)

572 >>>libertarians will not forget these smears against Paul and we will not vote GOP in 2016. You will lose.<<<

The "libertarian" hive-mind is a fascinating dynamic. How so many unfocused intellects can speak as one with the Paul clan as its nexus is astounding.

Posted by: Fritz at February 02, 2015 07:45 PM (UzPAd)

573
Obama was an "anti-vaxxer" in 2008. How about we use this against the Dums rather than attacking each other? See the sock link.

Posted by: andycanuck at February 02, 2015 07:40 PM (L6/+u)

Because we like the circular firing squad so much more.

Posted by: cm9000 at February 02, 2015 07:46 PM (8zCR+)

574 The AGW conjecture is not. How exactly would you test it?

See if the short term predictions of Global Warming Climate Change pan out.

The problem is the signal/noise ratio is lowish, so that results contrary to AGW predictions over any reasonable experimental timescale can be ascribed to chance.

It's kind of like injecting Imodium into the earth to stop earthquakes, and then after a year or two saying, "See? No earthquakes!"

Posted by: Jay Guevara at February 02, 2015 07:46 PM (oKE6c)

575 Want to be 100% sure your children are safe . Don't Fuck.

----

Not 100%.

Posted by: Virgin Mary at February 02, 2015 07:46 PM (VAsIq)

576 So, our son is visiting us tonight. He tells me that as a Marine (or anyone in the military) you line up and get your shots whether you want (or approve) of them or not.

He's had every shot imaginable. Said the most painful shots ever were the ones he had for anthrax. Instant severe headache.

Our children have all become Special Fucking Snowflakes.

Jeebus.

If you don't want your Snowflakes vaccinated, home school their asses. And stay away from theme parks.

Posted by: Jane D'oh at February 02, 2015 07:46 PM (FsuaD)

577 Apropos of nothing, Beretta Model 92S Italian LE turnings for $300 at Classic. http://is.gd/pDFcry

From the Wiki though:

In order to meet requirements of some law enforcement agencies, Beretta modified the Beretta 92 by adding a slide-mounted combined safety and decocking lever, replacing the frame mounted manual thumb safety. This resulted in the 92S which was adopted by several Italian law enforcement and military units. The later relocation of the magazine release button means these models (92 & 92S) cannot necessarily use later magazines, unless they have notches in both areas.

Posted by: toby928(C) at February 02, 2015 07:47 PM (rwI+c)

578 570 Want to be 100% sure your children are safe . Don't Fuck.

Why would you f*ck your kid?

Phrasing my man
Important

Posted by: Navycopjoe at February 02, 2015 07:48 PM (QY6Dj)

579 The advances made in medical care and our knowledge
of immunology during the past 65 years or so have been nothing short of
miraculous .

But hey, we haven't had had any epidemics or children dying en masse
of communicable diseases lately so let's forget about modern medicine
and take a trip down memory lane.

Posted by: Donna V. (brandishing
ampersands not bitter at all over the Super Bowl. No really,
honest.) at February 02, 2015 07:44 PM (+XMAD)
I've heard earnest liberals actually ask what good modern science/ medicine has done. I look at them the way people used to look at Ted Koppel's hair.

Posted by: Jay Guevara at February 02, 2015 07:48 PM (oKE6c)

580 576 Posted by: Jane D'oh at February 02, 2015 07:46 PM (FsuaD)

Don't want to get your shot?

No problem article XV... and confined to barracks

Reject the Art XV?

No problem you may do more time than Bowe Bergdahl for defecting to the opfor.....

Yeah....forgive me if my heart doesn't bleed so much for the Vacc troofers

Posted by: Sven S Blade a.k.a. El Assassin@sven10077 at February 02, 2015 07:49 PM (/4AZU)

581 I'm not convinced that we need the FDA. Is this not a job the states can do?

The states can't pave fcuking roads.

Posted by: DaveA at February 02, 2015 07:49 PM (DL2i+)

582 570 Want to be 100% sure your children are safe . Don't Fuck.

NOW he tells me.

Posted by: Barack Obama Sr. at February 02, 2015 07:49 PM (oKE6c)

583 The anti-vaxer movement is based entirely on fraud, on studies published in a UK medical journal that haven't stood up to any testing. You can make an argument for freedom, but your freedom ends when it harms somebody else. You can swing your fist all you want until somebody's face gets in the way of it.

Your freedom to be a breeding ground for disease puts the rest of society at risk, and opens the door for diseases long reduced to near extinction to come back in force and potentially mutate, putting all of civilization at risk.

Certainly that's worse than punching somebody in the face. Get your damn shots.

Posted by: Cato at February 02, 2015 07:49 PM (3HxZe)

584 The "libertarian" hive-mind is a fascinating dynamic. How so many unfocused intellects can speak as one with the Paul clan as its nexus is astounding.
Posted by: Fritz at February 02, 2015 07:45 PM (UzPAd)

Yep. They're yet another herd of independent minds.

Posted by: Donna &&&&&& V. (brandishing ampersands) at February 02, 2015 07:49 PM (+XMAD)

585
Look, can I get real here?
Democrats, and progressives in particular, are grotesquely, blatantly, rabidly, anti-science, and they always have been. The hotbed of vaccine resistance is in very blue California. GMOs and pesticides are largely safe. Who opposes their use? Nuclear power is the safest form of energy my any measure. Who opposes it? Fraking has made us energy independent at a huge net plus to the environment. Who opposes it?
Don't believe in evolution? So? Realistically it has exactly zero effect on what we do as a country. Don't believe in nuclear power, vaccines, GMOs, pesticides, fraking? You are literally flirting with our destructionas a nation.

Sorry- but who exactly is anti-science in this argument again?

Posted by: Dr. McCoy at February 02, 2015 07:50 PM (F192H)

586
Not 100%.

Posted by: Virgin Mary at February )))

We put your kid on a cross and he came back you don't get a voice in this discussion.

Posted by: Romans. at February 02, 2015 07:50 PM (Ae09I)

587
Vaccinate? I'm doing my best to spread boobonic plague here in Los Angeles

Posted by: Dr Weldon Shitpanski, ASPS, Boobs-R-Us at February 02, 2015 07:50 PM (wAQA5)

588 Because we like the circular firing squad so much more.

There's the rub ... I don't think the formation is circular.

There's a basic, unbridgeable schism between those who want DIFFERENT GOVERNMENT and those that want LESS GOVERNMENT.

A bunch of you want DIFFERENT GOVERNMENT. You've got no problem using government to order society as you wish ... you just hate the current order. I don't trust people like you. I see people like you as the lesser of my current political problems - but I have no illusions. If given the chance - you'd be just as intrusive as the current batch of Progressives.

Posted by: ScoggDog at February 02, 2015 07:50 PM (9m68G)

589 576. 3 and 4 are the bad one
There is a delay of a few seconds and then it feels like your arm is on fire

What sucks if you don't get them all the next deployment you start over again at the beginning

Posted by: Navycopjoe at February 02, 2015 07:50 PM (QY6Dj)

590 It seems to me that not getting your kid vaccinated (on grounds of personal liberty) is more akin to insisting on the right to drive drunk, viz., that that exercise of personal liberty can have severe and foreseeable repercussions for others who had no say in the original decision.

Posted by: Jay Guevara at February 02, 2015 07:51 PM (oKE6c)

591 I'm pro-vaccine, but isn't it true that the only people placed at risk by the unvaccinated are others who are also unvaccinated?

In other words, those who decided (or had parents who decided) to take that risk?

Posted by: Hollowpoint at February 02, 2015 07:51 PM (X9Mnx)

592 If you're vaccinated, then un-vaccinated people are not a danger to you. So... none of your f-ing business if I do or not.

That's not true Mr. Walking Petri Dish. AMF.

Posted by: DaveA at February 02, 2015 07:51 PM (DL2i+)

593 When you're in the military, you belong to the US gubmint.

You line up for your shots, and you don't whine or complain.

Any child attending a US gubmint school, should be required to have their vaccinations documented.

Don't want to? Home school. The private schools go by the same standards as the gubmint schools (unless there are those I'm unaware of).

Posted by: Jane D'oh at February 02, 2015 07:51 PM (FsuaD)

594 The problem is the signal/noise ratio is lowish, so that results contrary to AGW predictions over any reasonable experimental timescale can be ascribed to chance.

Agreed with all the flaws and limitations.

But AGW is still Scientific Consensus, and used to push all sorts of statist/tax issues.

Science wasn't vaccinated against politics, and the virus of Leftism has corrupted it. So it has rightfully taken a huge hit to its credibility, and I've no intentions of trying to salvage it.

Posted by: CitizenMonster at February 02, 2015 07:52 PM (0NdlF)

595 Posted by: Dr. McCoy at February 02, 2015 07:50 PM (F192H)

Thank you.

Posted by: Mindy at February 02, 2015 07:53 PM (81V/7)

596 I'm old enough to have been given both types of polio vaccinations. Whole neighborhoods lined up at the local elementary school during Ike's admin to get shots and then later sugar cubes. I saw a friend of the family in an actual iron lung as a child. I survived all the other common childhood diseases by luck and Mom and got the flu regularly until I was in my twenties.
During the Swine Flu scare in the seventies I went to yet another elementary school and got a vaccination. I developed a reaction and my right arm was seriously weakened for about six weeks before I began to recover.
That was very very rare and just the luck of the draw. My tough luck. I get a flu vacc whenever I feel like I should since about 35 thousand die every year from the flu. There are risks to anything. Vaccines however have saved hundreds of millions of lives.
Rand Paul's problem is that he wants to suck up to everyone on the Right so he can't be trusted by anyone on anything at this point.

Posted by: New Phone at February 02, 2015 07:53 PM (B2ecp)

597 Navycopjoe.)))

You failed reading comprehension in grade school didn't you?

Posted by: Redshirt at February 02, 2015 07:53 PM (Ae09I)

598 592 If you're vaccinated, then un-vaccinated people are not a danger to you. So... none of your f-ing business if I do or not.

That's not true Mr. Walking Petri Dish. AMF.
Posted by: DaveA at February 02, 2015 07:51 PM (DL2i+)

Apparently these people forget that vaccines aren't 100% effective, and that viruses can and do mutate with alarming regularity. Through vaccines, we've driven some diseases to extinction, and it's to the benefit of all mankind that we wipe out as many as we can. Get your damn shots.

Posted by: Cato at February 02, 2015 07:54 PM (3HxZe)

599 593
When you're in the military, you belong to the US gubmint.

You line up for your shots, and you don't whine or complain.

Any child attending a US gubmint school, should be required to have their vaccinations documented.

Jane ... that's dangerously close to saying a child attending public school ALSO belongs to the US gubmint.

Really ?

Posted by: ScoggDog at February 02, 2015 07:54 PM (9m68G)

600 >>
Yeah, I have to wonder if the new focus on vaccinations is an attempt to
shift blame for the supposed rise in infectious diseases away from
shipping illegal immigrants across the United States.

I completely agree.

Also agree about not making vaccines mandatory. I have a sibling who never got the small pox vaccine as a kid because at the time kids w/eczema were having a bad reaction to it and dying. My parents, both medical professionals, made the call based on there being a higher % change of the bad reaction than the % change of actually getting small pox. This was the only exception.

I'll admit that the one vaccine I'm leery about is Gardisil, but we've not made that decision yet.

Posted by: Nationwide at February 02, 2015 07:56 PM (ABcz/)

601 Nood. And it's SPECTACULAR!

Posted by: Jane D'oh at February 02, 2015 07:56 PM (FsuaD)

602 Shit the same crap, another time

This thread stinks to high heaven

Ace, you can't drop this turd on us and then disappear.

Must we pray to SMOD

Posted by: Nevergiveup at February 02, 2015 07:56 PM (nzKvP)

603 sigh, I like Rand paul, but hate when he does dumb stuff like this. Alas, find me a politician that doesn't do dumb stuff. I wish the repubs hadn't done everything they could to block out Gary Johnson.

Posted by: Sean at February 02, 2015 07:57 PM (p2q3U)

604 Jane ... that's dangerously close to saying a child attending public school ALSO belongs to the US gubmint.

Really ?

Posted by: ScoggDog at February 02, 2015 07:54 PM (9m68G)

I'm not saying that AT ALL. I grew up in the military, by the way.

Posted by: Jane D'oh at February 02, 2015 07:57 PM (FsuaD)

605 But AGW is still Scientific Consensus, and used to push all sorts of statist/tax issues.

Science wasn't vaccinated against politics, and the virus of Leftism
has corrupted it. So it has rightfully taken a huge hit to its
credibility, and I've no intentions of trying to salvage it.

I'm not sure that there really is a scientific consensus on this, but I also don't care; science isn't decided by a show of hands, but rather by dispositive data, which are not to hand at the moment. So the question remains open, IMO.

And I wouldn't lump all science into one pot; as indicated above, the quality of biomedical research generally is poor, and that in the social sciences is a joke, but real, hard-core, no shit science produces sound information. Sometimes mistakes get made, or frauds perpetrated, but they usually get blasted pretty quickly. See, e.g., cold fusion and polywater, both of which were (I believe) honest mistakes.

Posted by: Jay Guevara at February 02, 2015 07:57 PM (oKE6c)

606 but isn't it true that the only people placed at risk by the unvaccinated are others who are also unvaccinated?

Including every single child that is too young for the vaccination.

Posted by: buzzion at February 02, 2015 07:57 PM (z/Ubi)

607 I'm not saying that AT ALL. I grew up in the military, by the way.

I had you pegged for a Military Kid. That's not a swipe, by the way.

I grew up poor white trash and got out of it. That may not surprise you either.

Posted by: ScoggDog at February 02, 2015 07:59 PM (9m68G)

608 "567 Much as I love you guys, you're not using force of law to inject stuff into my children.
Again, for the record, theyre vaccinated now.
But mine take precedence over yours until you jail me or kill me.
I think you'd say the same."
----
^^^ This.

Why is anyone even taking the clear as day MSM bait, just another distraction onto some that that is largely a non-issue.

Posted by: ThisBeingMilt at February 02, 2015 08:00 PM (MbrzC)

609 Hey folks, vaccines may not be 100% effective, but worrying about the possibility of a mutation of the diseases in non-innoculated children in the US is a bit silly when the viruses have free rein to incubate and mutate in incubator known as the rest of the world.

Posted by: gm at February 02, 2015 08:00 PM (/kBoL)

610 Nood ass

Posted by: Redshirt at February 02, 2015 08:01 PM (Ae09I)

611 >>I'm pro-vaccine, but isn't it true that the only people placed at risk by the unvaccinated are others who are also unvaccinated?

Just read that the MMR vaccine is 97% effective, so that means a vaccinated kid can still get it (small chance, but still) if exposed.
Others can probably name them - but there are some vaccines that wear off and as adults we should get boosters. So having measles (or whatever - maybe it's Rubella?) in our midst might also be an issue w/an adult who thinks he/she's safe but has failed to get the booster.
That's the safety in herd immunity.

Posted by: Lizzy at February 02, 2015 08:01 PM (ABcz/)

612 Our children have all become Special Fucking Snowflakes.

Jeebus.

If you don't want your Snowflakes vaccinated, home school their asses. And stay away from theme parks.
Posted by: Jane D'oh at February 02, 2015 07:46 PM (FsuaD)

Yep.

In the novel "A Tree Grows in Brooklyn" set in the early 1900's, the immigrants living in slum conditions in Williamsburg(including the main character's mother) quake in fear when they have to bring their children to be vaccinated before they can enroll them in public school (what they were vaccinating kids for in the early 1900's I'm not sure - maybe typhus?) They were genuinely afraid their children would die from getting vaccinated.

Of course, as the author made clear, those parents were afraid because they were uneducated and superstitious greenhorns who didn't understand how diseases and viruses and germs spread.

I can understand why those people were afraid and why illiterate peasants in foreign countries are afraid of vaccinations. But educated Americans who live in places like Marin County? Sheesh.

Posted by: Donna &&&&&& V. (brandishing ampersands) at February 02, 2015 08:02 PM (+XMAD)

613 I could make popcorn and watch the Fed get audited instead of the destruction of my nice country.

Attn: To whom it may concern.

This won't work.
It will blow up in your face.
It's a dumber idea and topic than BCP + vaccines.

http://viooz.ac/movies/9274-the-sand-pebbles-1966.html
Skip to the part where the senior coolie jumps into the crankshaft well.

Posted by: DaveA at February 02, 2015 08:02 PM (DL2i+)

614 " I wish the repubs hadn't done everything they could to block out Gary Johnson."
---
He said some thing people would probably call "pretty dumb shit" too, and yet I still nearly voted for him.

Posted by: ThisBeingMilt at February 02, 2015 08:02 PM (MbrzC)

615 And I wouldn't lump all science into one pot;

You're still trying to defend Science as some objective/neutral source of knowledge on various topics. I don't think we are a society supports seeing science in that way, anymore. It's inevitably going to be used as an authority to bully someone else, because Science!

Posted by: CitizenMonster at February 02, 2015 08:02 PM (0NdlF)

616 Why is anyone even taking the clear as day MSM bait, just another distraction onto some that that is largely a non-issue.

Because I don't think it's bait, Milt. It's the fundamental schism -the primacy of the State versus the Individual. The question is most certainly NOT settled on the Right.

FWIW - and that ain't much - I don't think it is on the Left either. You just don't see a GOP candidate willing to piss off 1/3 to court 2/3. Team Elephant pleases nobody by trying to please everybody.

Posted by: ScoggDog at February 02, 2015 08:03 PM (9m68G)

617 Kind of pointless.

I mean, there's far far more illegal aliens who were never vaccinated, than born citizens who won't get vaccinated.

And you'll keep the larger vector. No way are they going anywhere.

But yeah, hate them anti-vaxxers! Hate them with great hate! THEY KILL KIDS

Posted by: Chris_Balsz at February 02, 2015 08:03 PM (kTWS+)

618 On vaccine efficacy:
http://voxday.blogspot.com/2014/03/pro-vaccine-dishonesty.html#links

"However even a cursory look at the available data quickly reveals that the mortality from almost all infectious disease was in steep decline well before the introduction of vaccination or antibiotics."

"The takeaway here is that vaccination played a very minor role in the steep decline in mortality due to infectious disease during the late 19th century and early to mid- 20th century. Improved living standards, better nutrition, sanitary sewage disposal, clean water, and less crowded living conditions all played crucial roles."

Careful about bludgeoning the anti-vax with overstated claims on vaccine benefits. Every wrong one will be used back against you with a vengeance. The Greater Good isn't enough of a reason for parents to risk their children.

Posted by: CitizenMonster at February 02, 2015 08:05 PM (0NdlF)

619 I'm old enough to have been given both types of polio vaccinations.
Whole neighborhoods lined up at the local elementary school during Ike's
admin to get shots and then later sugar cubes.

Here as well and I remember being pissed that I couldn't have the sugar cubes because I was too old. On the other hand, I was proud to get the polio scar on my shoulder because my dad had one. One thing that everyone got was their tonsils out in those days. Our doctor actually came to the house with the black bag when I was a kid. Pissed again because he was against everyone getting their tonsils out and I didn't get popsicles and ice cream like the other kids did.

Posted by: dartist at February 02, 2015 08:06 PM (ahBY0)

620 Speaking of Ghostbusters...
What the ever loving F on the new reboot movie?

Posted by: ThisBeingMilt at February 02, 2015 08:07 PM (MbrzC)

621 You know ... given the current line of logic ... I hope like Hell that "SCIENCE !!!" doesn't come up with an AIDS vaccine that 51% effective and 49% terminal.

Because now that's the line I'm hearing ... "Well, the downside is just so SMALL compared to the benefits". Folks - is there a level of risk where Parental Judgement gets it's Day in Court ?

Geez ... and I vaxed both my kids. But I tell you what - sometimes you people make more distrust Government and Republicans more than anything I run into during my normal day.

Posted by: ScoggDog at February 02, 2015 08:07 PM (9m68G)

622 Bluchhhhhh;h...blechhhh....fwaaaaaachhhh...

Posted by: Throws Up Like A Girl at February 02, 2015 08:08 PM (lG2E3)

623 I literally have to go clean the cat boxes so I'll have to pick this up tomorrow.

Posted by: DaveA at February 02, 2015 08:08 PM (DL2i+)

624 Somebodies at least BEEN to Indiana.

Six years and two degrees at the testament to brick construction in West Lafayette.

Posted by: Kevin in ABQ at February 02, 2015 08:09 PM (BvTwT)

625 Posted by: ScoggDog at February 02, 2015 08:07 PM (9m68G)

"Anti-vax" is the new racist.

"I don't think it's a good idea to ... "

"ANTI-VAXER! SHUN THE UNBELIEVER!"

Posted by: CitizenMonster at February 02, 2015 08:11 PM (0NdlF)

626 He said some thing people would probably call "pretty dumb shit" too, and yet I still nearly voted for him.

I did vote for him. I can't take anymore of the republican nonsense. I identify as a libertarian, but I think a lot of libertarians are extreme. Unfortunately the Republicans have moved so far from my stances that I'm now closer to libertarians.

Posted by: Sean at February 02, 2015 08:12 PM (p2q3U)

627 Because I don't think it's bait, Milt.
----
If one wants to go all no-vac today with their kids, they can, they just typically can't enroll their kid in a State institution where they'll be interacting with large numbers of others. I'm failing to see what's suddenly changed in this regard too the extent that it has POTUS candidates being asked about this over say oh IDK the lack of our own control over our borders.

"It's the fundamental schism -the primacy of the State versus the Individual. The question is most certainly NOT settled on the Right."
---
Well that fundamental schism sure isn't, or too the extent it is it's come down on the side of the State in so far as the Republican party is concerned.

Posted by: ThisBeingMilt at February 02, 2015 08:16 PM (MbrzC)

628 Because I don't think it's bait, Milt. It's the fundamental schism -the primacy of the State versus the Individual. The question is most certainly NOT settled on the Right.

Yeah, that's what i'm seeing too, many on the right say they're not in favor of forcing vaccines but hey, if you don't vaccinate your kids, well, you're just not welcome anywhere in society, disingenuous to say the least.

Posted by: booger at February 02, 2015 08:17 PM (tzcDX)

629 I don't know if too many vaccines is a problem, but the same people (govt) who tell us to get flu shots every year etc are the same ones who pushed grains and carbs now we have fatties galore and diabetes out the waZOO. They DO NOT KNOW what the heck they are doing. Some docs and scientists do, but they have become heavily politicized, and they wonder why much of the the country has doubts.

Posted by: Baldy at February 02, 2015 08:19 PM (+35FH)

630 "I did vote for him. I can't take anymore of the republican nonsense. I identify as a libertarian, but I think a lot of libertarians are extreme. Unfortunately the Republicans have moved so far from my stances that I'm now closer to libertarians.

Posted by: Sean at February 02, 2015 08:12 PM (p2q3U) "
----
I didn't in 2012, but if I had a do-over I would today.
I find myself in a similar place as you.

Posted by: ThisBeingMilt at February 02, 2015 08:21 PM (MbrzC)

631 >>>And you're a doctor, for God's sakes.

Alright. I'm tired of it. You calling people teh stoopid when you apparently can't be bothered to actually read the official government cautions about common vaccines.

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/side-effects.htm

From the CDC on the TDAP vaccine.

Severe Problems (Very Rare)
Serious allergic reaction (less than 1 out of a million doses) Several other severe problems have been reported after DTaP vaccine. These include:
Long-term seizures, coma, or lowered consciousness
Permanent brain damage.

MMR vaccine side-effects

Severe Problems (Very Rare)
Serious allergic reaction (less than 1 out of a million doses)
Several other severe problems have been reported after a child gets MMR vaccine, including:
Deafness
Long-term seizures, coma, or lowered consciousness
Permanent brain damage

In both cases they note that the instances are so low they cannot confirm the vaccine caused the problem. However, they still make sure to have them listed as potential side effects

now is the CDC part of the Luap Nor conspiracy gig?

Posted by: MikeTheMoose at February 02, 2015 08:22 PM (0q2P7)

632 Yeah, that's what i'm seeing too, many on the right say they're not in favor of forcing vaccines but hey, if you don't vaccinate your kids, well, you're just not welcome anywhere in society, disingenuous to say the least.

Not really. I agree parents should be free to raise their kids as they see fit (you're a retard if you don't vaccinate your kids, however). our society and gov't have lots of rules for one to fully cooperate in things, but if someone wants to not vaccinate and go the home school route so be it.

Posted by: Sean at February 02, 2015 08:25 PM (p2q3U)

633 Sean ... I'm cool with your stance.

I'd also like to see those Home Schooling households get at least part of their School Tax money back.

And I send my kids to Public School. Good Grief - this place must bring out my Inner Hippy or something.

Posted by: ScoggDog at February 02, 2015 08:27 PM (9m68G)

634 "I'd also like to see those Home Schooling households get at least part of their School Tax money back."
---
As would I. It would also open up more creative opportunities\solutions in my view for HS'ers.

Posted by: ThisBeingMilt at February 02, 2015 08:34 PM (MbrzC)

635 Posted by: Sean at February 02, 2015 08:25 PM (p2q3U)

To pretend that barring someone from normal society isn't being in favor of forcing vaccines is just silly, so yes, it is disingenuous.

Posted by: booger at February 02, 2015 08:36 PM (tzcDX)

636 They aren't being barred from society. They aren't marked with scarlet letters.

If you want to drive, you have to pass a couple tests. If you want to go to high school you have to pass grade 8. If you want to go to school, get a vaccination.
Atheism isn't forced on me because I couldn't practice religion in school. My parents had the choice to home school me or send me to catholic school if they wanted a religious education. We weren't barred from normal society because we are catholics.

Posted by: Sean at February 02, 2015 08:42 PM (p2q3U)

637 The basic point of democracy, as developed by the Greeks, was that if you expect a guy to do anything for you -- like walk to the Black Sea so as not to be murdered for being Greek in Persia -- then he is capable of understanding that what you want done, is right for him to do; and if you cannot explain it to him, you are not fit to give orders to him.

Posted by: Chris_Balsz at February 02, 2015 08:48 PM (kTWS+)

638 If you want to drive, you have to pass a couple tests. If you want to go to high school you have to pass grade 8. If you want to go to school, get a vaccination.
Atheism isn't forced on me because I couldn't practice religion in school. My parents had the choice to home school me or send me to catholic school if they wanted a religious education. We weren't barred from normal society because we are catholics.

Do you not see the difference in these examples? You weren't barred from school for being a catholic, but you want kids barred from school if they're not vaccinated.

They aren't being barred from society. They aren't marked with scarlet letters.

Well, they don't have the scarlet letters, at least not yet, but you're in favor of banning them from the schools their taxes pay for and liberty lovin' republicans like this guy want to ban them from Disneyworld - https://twitter.com/Neal_Dewing/status/562346101391777792

Posted by: booger at February 02, 2015 08:59 PM (tzcDX)

639 Just read that the MMR vaccine is 97% effective, so that means a vaccinated kid can still get it (small chance, but still) if exposed.

I didn't know that. Thanks.

Posted by: Hollowpoint at February 02, 2015 09:21 PM (X9Mnx)

640 Great just what we need, people checking your implanted rfid tag for vaccinations (or other) markers at at stadium and Disneyworld turnstiles. Oh you opt-ed out of that awesome implant, no problem, but no entry. Not today, not tomorrow, but I could see it happening.
The future is so bright I have to wear shades. /s

Posted by: ThisBeingMilt at February 02, 2015 09:36 PM (MbrzC)

641 Posted by: MikeTheMoose at February 02, 2015 08:22 PM (0q2P7)

Have you ever taken medications for anything? Every single drug or med out there has possible side effects and risks. Manufacturers and the CDC are required to list them. None of of them are 100% safe.

Of course, if you refuse to take beta blockers because of the risk and subsequently drop dead from a heart attack, that's your own business. If you refuse a vaccine and then infect other people that is our business. What if your unvaccinated kid got ill and made other kids seriously ill? Would you be OK with that? Do your rights trump the rights of other people who want their kids to not get those diseases?

It dismays me to see so many Luddites on the right - I expect that from hippy-dips who want everything to be natural (Measles and chicken pox and small poz and polio are all very natural.)

Posted by: Donna &&&&&& V. (brandishing ampersands) at February 02, 2015 09:38 PM (+XMAD)

642 Posted by: Baldy at February 02, 2015 08:19 PM (+35FH)

Modern medicine has increased lifespans tremendously over the past 100 years. So has immunizations.

Look up what the top 10 killer diseases in America were in 1900 - cancer and heart disease weren't on the list. The worst killers were all childhood diseases, and most of them were from things children don't die of now - because they get vaccinated. If you made it past 5 in those days you were fortunate.

Low childhood mortality rates are so taken for granted now that people have forgotten that wasn't the case for most of human history. They have also forgotten exactly why kids in First World countries don't die like flies anymore.

Posted by: Donna &&&&&& V. (brandishing ampersands) at February 02, 2015 09:47 PM (+XMAD)

643 "It dismays me to see so many Luddites on the right - I expect that from hippy-dips who want everything to be natural (Measles and chicken pox and small poz and polio are all very natural.) "

Have you really not noticed that what is being demanded is blind faith in a commercial product mass-produced for profit, in advance?

Lost in the HOWLS over people who refused to get the measles vaccine are the quiet reminders that if you did get vaccinated, you need another shot, the old one doesn't work so well.

The benefits of vaccination are never absolute. There is always a risk, and it must always be discussed, and that should be discussed by the public at large.

Posted by: Chris_Balsz at February 02, 2015 09:57 PM (kTWS+)

644 >>>None of of them are 100% safe.

Not all of them have potential side effects that severe either.

>>>If you refuse a vaccine and then infect other people that is our business. What if your unvaccinated kid got ill and made other kids seriously ill? Would you be OK with that? Do your rights trump the rights of other people who want their kids to not get those diseases?

Put down the +5 Holy Slayer of Strawmen big guy. Brave Crusader you've slain them all. I never suggested that public Heath concerns could never be an overriding factor in vaccination and create a real public obligation. I never suggested that I would not highly reccomend appropriate vaccination.I was only rebutting the 'anyone who says there are risks haz teh dumb' bs insult line Ace was foisting.

Posted by: MikeTheMoose at February 02, 2015 10:16 PM (c95bJ)

645 Yes, let's harp on the handful of non-vaxers instead of the millions of unvaxed crossing the border.

This issue should be a softball for Republicans.

Posted by: Malcolm Tent at February 02, 2015 10:17 PM (QPoJb)

646 The benefits of vaccination are never absolute. There is always a risk, and it must always be discussed, and that should be discussed by the public at large.

Those risks lead to the costs - out of millions vaccinated, a number WILL have complications BECAUSE of the vaccine. Maybe it's only 0.1% or 0.01% ... but that can still end up affecting hundreds or thousands of people.

Some complications are merely inconvenient. Some complications result in lifelong disability or death. And the thing is, it's not easy to prove a vaccine is safe. Even if the FDA/CDC says it's safe - it might not be because there was politics/money involved in doctoring the results.

Depending on the disease - some vaccines may be worth the cost. Some vaccines may not. An Ebola vaccine that kill 0.01% of those who take it will kill more Americans than Ebola would, if applied to the US universally.

Everyone not 100% for vaccines gets lumped into "anti-vax". This is unfair, irrational, and ultimately counter-productive if you want people to trust vaccines.

Posted by: CitizenMonster at February 02, 2015 10:36 PM (0NdlF)

647 "645 Yes, let's harp on the handful of non-vaxers instead of the millions of unvaxed crossing the border.
This issue should be a softball for Republicans.
Posted by: Malcolm Tent at February 02, 2015 10:17 PM (QPoJb)
----
^ Precisely.

Posted by: ThisBeingMilt at February 02, 2015 10:44 PM (MbrzC)

648 Do you not see the difference in these examples? You weren't barred from school for being a catholic, but you want kids barred from school if they're not vaccinated.

a better example is kids in public schools now and/or in the past are required to have certain hair cuts, certain dress, etc. I think if schools can enforce hair codes that prevent distraction, preventing measles is also reasonable.

Posted by: Sean at February 02, 2015 10:59 PM (p2q3U)

649 "Paul, Inc., exists because the cadre of paranoids and conspiracists likes to be flattered as having raised "Serious Questions," and will vote for anyone"

And Ace is going full liberal on the Pauls and his supporters. Name calling and no logic behind their hate

We vote for them because they support liberty above everything else political. Sure we have crazies among our ranks- but no more than any movement. They just get pointed out more because of irrational hate.

Nothing is wrong with pointing out facts. That's all Paul did. You just took the liberal medias bait, hook like and sinker.

Posted by: Patrick Henry, the 2nd at February 02, 2015 11:37 PM (jTy8z)

650 I guess I'm crazy for having a kid that had problems only after having vaccines given. Turns out he was allergic to eggs and reacted very badly to all the added stuff in the vaccines.

But hey, what is one fucked-up kid in your world-view, Ace? Oh, and answer that question if it were your kid.

Posted by: keninnorcal at February 03, 2015 12:08 AM (On0/h)

651 Oh, and we know there's no way government agencies could ever promote something outside of the public good, right?

Posted by: keninnorcal at February 03, 2015 12:17 AM (On0/h)

652 Quick, all you establishment bloggers, it's time to start taking out the anti-establishment candidates. Let's see, if only we can get someone under a false name to put in another story to hint at how horrible a person Paul is, without saying so....

Posted by: doug at February 03, 2015 12:43 AM (IYEs/)

653 When your "freedom to be wrong" puts my child at risk, you're out of line. Sorry.

Posted by: Adjoran at February 03, 2015 01:01 AM (QIQ6j)

654 Here in San Francisco, most of the folks who are opposed to vaccinating their children are on the left. That includes a lot of kooks, but it also includes some fairly moderate lefties (if there is such a thing!) So I don't understand the value of pinning this on Republicans.

Posted by: debiesam at February 03, 2015 02:16 AM (ifahm)

655 Paul is right. Everyone should be vaccinated, but vaccines have and do and will cause some percentage of people problems.

For libertarians, there's a big difference between "everyone should get their kids vaccinated" and "the government should send a SWAT team to your house to hold you down while your kids are forcibly injected with whatever the government says they should be injected with."

And if you think the Democrats are really all that far from the latter, they aren't. The core of the party is still Maoist totalitarianism with a happy face.

Posted by: TallDave at February 03, 2015 02:36 AM (bgGGN)

656 123
107 It is actually quite reliable. It just isn't 99% effective like most other vaccines.
---------------------------------------

Not for me, as I said it gave me the flu instead of preventing it.

Posted by: Vic at February 02, 2015 05:47 PM (wlDny)

Ditto Vic. Turned out it was a chicken allergy so no flu shots for me since the 80's when the USN tested me after I passed out from the mandatory shot they gave us at work.

Posted by: Amy Shulkusky at February 03, 2015 04:50 AM (fszmw)

657 Oh yeah, while in NAVET {out/reserves/back in} the yellow fever vac made me sick as a dog for a day or so. Now have shingles, fibromyalgia, migraines, sinus misery. Related? Who knows.

Posted by: Amy Shulkusky at February 03, 2015 05:02 AM (fszmw)

658 Baby killers.

That's what people who feel that vaccines are optional, that it's a choice, or for whatever reason won't vaccinate their kids or themselves.

Baby killers.

But just not any baby killer. They want the ability to kill other people's babies at random while walking about in public. Your kid unable to get vaccines due to health risks? The vaccine not give you full immunity? Well step right up and prepare to die. Baby killers demand you die for their choice.

Baby killers like these demand post-birth abortions at their whim. As well as the ability to murder adults who have weak immune systems. So you sick, old, or AIDS patients are next. Right after we have some more dead babies.

Baby killers have forgotten how many people died from the diseases that are nonexistent (Until now) in the US. They want to go back to the days where children died regularly, when EVERYONE had a friend or family member who died to polio/whooping cough/mumps/etc. To the baby killers those were the halcyon days.

My grandparents had family members and friends die form the disease. My mother barely survived polio and was badly scarred by it. I nearly died from Rubella because I was too young to have the vaccine.

I haven't forgotten the horrors of these preventable diseases. But baby killers want to bring them back.

So Ace: why is it that you feel that babies need to die and be scarred/maimed/brain damaged for life for YOUR CHOICE? That's what you advocate in your post, but you never cover that question or its related one: exactly how many babies must die before, in your mind, it's no longer a choice. Please be specific; I want to see if you change your tune when that threshold is reached.

Posted by: Tristan Phillips at February 03, 2015 06:32 AM (htKk+)

659 Please explain how many babies were saved by Texas ordering teens to get the Gardasil vaccination.

Posted by: Chris Balsz at February 03, 2015 09:00 AM (8rRE+)

660 654 Here in San Francisco, most of the folks who are opposed to vaccinating their children are on the left. That includes a lot of kooks, but it also includes some fairly moderate lefties (if there is such a thing!) So I don't understand the value of pinning this on Republicans.

The value is political, it's pushing the BS Notion that the dems are the party of science and repubs are crazy religious people who are all govt conspiracy theorists.

Posted by: sean at February 03, 2015 09:51 AM (p2q3U)

661 650 I guess I'm crazy for having a kid that had problems only after having vaccines given. Turns out he was allergic to eggs and reacted very badly to all the added stuff in the vaccines.

But hey, what is one fucked-up kid in your world-view, Ace? Oh, and answer that question if it were your kid.

I am sorry about your kid, but this is terrible logic and Yuri motions are clearly clouding your view.

Posted by: sean at February 03, 2015 10:09 AM (ur9nk)

662 So please do a PubMed or Google scholar search for "vaccine case report." These are low value but not to be ignored by physicians. These are typically not brought up by physicians during patient interactions due to medical ethics which tells us that it is in our patients best interest to get themselves and children vaccinated. So RP is not spouting craziness, he has heard and most likely read these case reports, and if he was the type of doctor that would be vaccinating patients would likely have a good response to convince a patient to get vaccinated. I could easily convince myself that as a libertarian, RP believes that the medical community should do the convincing not gov't coercion.

Posted by: NMS at February 03, 2015 10:27 AM (/JDQQ)

663 I'm all for keeping unvaccinated kids out of public schools- and that has seemed to work well enough.

We need to step back a minute and examine what has really changed in the last decade. There have always been pockets of unvaccinated. But they are pockets, and hence they free ride on herd immunity (mostly). What has changed is that free riding has become mainstreamed (as free riding is like to do). How do we prevent free riding? Well you can make it more costly to free ride (not accepting kids into public schools for example), but generally the shame game is what really keeps people in line (again, accept for the fringe that has always existed and is demonstrably tolerable).

And thats why trying to dump this on Republicans is such a farce. Its deep, deep blue Democrats pushing the anti-vaccine movement into the mainstream. Its not some survivalist from Utah showing up on The View to promote the cause. Its some dim witted Hollywood blond that has never voted R in her life.

The right has a general reaction of- this is a bad decision but we dont want to stick a needle in your kids arm. The left has a reaction of- well maybe these kooks on The View have a point and by the way Republicans are anti-science.

Posted by: Mark Buehner at February 03, 2015 10:55 AM (H4otT)

664 Always believed in vaccinating kids. Now I'm not so sure. My normal 19 month old started having seizures within 2 weeks of a dpt vaccination. He slowly regressed until now at 30 he is total care. When his little brother was born, we agonized over whether to immunize him. We ultimately decided to do it and there were no complications. Point is, this issue seems like a real no brainer, until you mix in personal experience.

Posted by: captain ralls at February 03, 2015 11:36 AM (D8Q5S)

665 Funny. I always had the impression this was a Left/;Liberal hangup. After all its typically Hollywood types who are anti-vacs...

Posted by: Rodney C. Johnson at February 03, 2015 04:16 PM (M2oVh)

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