aceofspadeshq at gee mail.com
CBD:
cbd.aoshq at gee mail.com
Buck:
buck.throckmorton at protonmail.com
joe mannix:
mannix2024 at proton.me
MisHum:
petmorons at gee mail.com
J.J. Sefton:
sefton at cutjibnewsletter.com
So Like Everyone On the Right is Now Outraged by the Garner Death Just Like They Were Outrage by the "Militarization of Police" in Ferguson
Frankly, I think everyone on the right is looking to prove "We're not one of those sorts of people who automatically defends anyone who kills a black person." And we did that in three Racial Incidents running. I know my first reaction in both Trayvon Martin's case, and in Michael Brown's case, was to side with the black victim. And maybe this is the wrong time to put my foot down, but I've been suckered twice, and I won't be suckered a third time. Did Eric Garner deserve to die? No. The crime that began all this was selling "Loosies," single cigarettes out of the pack, in defiance of the state tobacco tax laws and all the other nonsense laws they throw on people about only selling things in their original packaging. Minor shit. Nonsense. And yet, he defied police orders when they attempted to arrest them. When they tried to cuff him, he defied them again, pulling his arms away. He decided, as a Jury of One, that the law was silly and he would not be being arrested today. I can't entirely blame him for feeling that way, but I know that if the police attempt to arrest you for a law which you are in fact breaking, even if you think it's a minor harassing sort of law, you do not have the right to resist arrest. What followed is what follows in all resisting-arrest cases: some escalating violence as the police attempt to physically impose their will on the noncompliant suspect. Some number of such situations will result in the death of the suspect. I guess I just don't understand how we say this guy is guilty of manslaughter, given that in almost all cases where a guy's heart just gives out in a struggle, we could find some error in procedure as a hook to throw the guy in jail for. This is a tragedy, in my mind. Eric Garner wasn't much of a criminal threat, and the police did seem too eager to use force. Nevertheless, we actually pay them to use force when a law-breaking suspect (even one breaking a trivial law) resists arrest. That is the job we've given them. To say this guy is guilty of murder or manslaughter seems to me to be a case of scapegoating the people we've tasked with implementing a policy that we have imposed ourselves. If trivial laws should not provide grounds for arrest, We should change the laws to say so. If cops should just let a non-compliant but non-felony suspect go if he resists arrest, we should make that officially part of their job description. We did something similar -- wrongly, I think, but we did it-- when we made it police policy to let felony flight cases just drive away, rather than engage in a high-speed chase. (Except when cops suspect a major felony.) Now, if we're keeping the laws as they are, and sending out cops to enforce piece-of-shit minor laws and arrest people rather than cite them with a ticket, that's on us. And we have to accept that out of every 10,000 or so arrests, there are going to be some deaths. Some deaths will be the kind where we can definitely say the cop was culpable and committed a great crime. Others, however, will simply be the result of mistakes and misfortunes, and will be due to decisions we have made as a society every bit as they are the fault of the officer executing our policy. This just doesn't look like murder to me. Or manslaughter. It's not like the cops wanted to be there. We were paying them to have this encounter. Having this encounter was the duty we charged them with. The definition of a scapegoat is an individual made to suffer for decisions made by the group. I'm tired of all the scapegoating of late. Objection: Inspector Cussword takes strong exception to my attempt to read his mind and his True Beliefs, in claiming that people on the right just want to get on the liberal side on one of these cases. That's fair. I shouldn't have done that. That said, in three situations running, I have seen many people on the right take the "liberal" side of the argument initially. It does seem to be a pattern. It could be that this is, as I suggested, the wrong time for me to decide I won't be hoodwinked. I have to confess, I saw this video of Eric Garner's killing a long time ago, and my impression when I saw it was -- Shit, that is a callous thing I just saw, which resulted in a man's death. But I guess I'm just sick of being bamboozled by a media that reports only one side of these cases, and the Mob's pressurizing of all comers to Join the Mob. I may be reacting too quickly here -- in the opposite direction. Well, I'll keep an open mind. But what I reject is this idea that if a man dies, there must be a criminal violation. That's simply way false. There are situations in which a homicide (all deaths caused by men are homicides, whether crimes or not) are legal. Self-defense (Trayvon Martin) is one such case. Effecting a lawful arrest is another. Without something I can look at and feel, in my gut, When that guy did that, he was acting so far out of bounds he's guilty of the most serious crime that exists, I'm inclined to resist the quick judgment.Comments
(Jump to bottom of comments)Posted by: toby928(C) at December 03, 2014 05:05 PM (rwI+c)
Posted by: toby928(C) at December 03, 2014 05:06 PM (rwI+c)
Posted by: Mr. Moo Moo at December 03, 2014 05:07 PM (0LHZx)
Posted by: Feh at December 03, 2014 05:07 PM (g/zj9)
Posted by: Thin veneer of civility at December 03, 2014 05:08 PM (XzRw1)
Won't get fooled again!
Posted by: ace taking of his mirror sunglasses at December 03, 2014 05:08 PM (T4t+V)
Posted by: artisanal 'ette at December 03, 2014 05:08 PM (IXrOn)
Posted by: toby928(C) at December 03, 2014 05:09 PM (rwI+c)
Posted by: brak at December 03, 2014 05:09 PM (Tj+s6)
Posted by: anon a mouse at December 03, 2014 05:09 PM (/jpU8)
Posted by: BackwardsBoy, Curmudgeon Extraordinaire at December 03, 2014 05:10 PM (0HooB)
Exactly.
But selective enforcement of bullshit laws is part of the issue. I watch NYPD officers walk past crimes in progress every single time I am in NYC.
Why was Eric Garner arrested, and street vendors and squeegee men and J walkers aren't?
Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at December 03, 2014 05:10 PM (Zu3d9)
Former RNC Chairman Michael Steele continues to be on of my greatest disappointments.
I see your Steele and raise you a Powell.
Posted by: Thin veneer of civility at December 03, 2014 05:10 PM (XzRw1)
Community: Organized.
Posted by: --- at December 03, 2014 05:10 PM (MMC8r)
Something the GOPe hasn't figured out with Obama
Posted by: Rudy Guiliani at December 03, 2014 05:10 PM (LoIJo)
Posted by: Feh at December 03, 2014 05:11 PM (g/zj9)
I will hold out to see what kind of evidence the GJ was presented. It will be no comment until then.
Posted by: Vic at December 03, 2014 05:11 PM (u9gzs)
Aye. He's going to get some communities organized into neat rows of crosses.
Posted by: toby928(C) at December 03, 2014 05:11 PM (rwI+c)
BLACKSPHERE'S KEVIN JACKSON SCHOOLS CNN GUESTS ON WHY #ERICGARNER CASE ISN'T ABOUT RACE
http://tinyurl.com/lpzrcs3
Posted by: artisanal 'ette at December 03, 2014 05:11 PM (IXrOn)
Posted by: Zombie Johnny Cochran at December 03, 2014 05:11 PM (1Y+hH)
I bet we find out this wasn't just some random arrest but the cops taking down a guy who was violating his bail in broad daylight. Six cops don't just descend on a guy for selling loose cigarettes.
Posted by: JackStraw at December 03, 2014 05:11 PM (g1DWB)
:On June 22, 2010, the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) published a rule that restricts the sale, distribution, and marketing of cigarettes, cigarette tobacco, and smokeless tobacco products to protect children and adolescents. The rule is required by the Family Smoking Prevention and Tobacco Control Act and is intended to protect kids by making tobacco products less accessible and attractive to them
Posted by: anon a mouse at December 03, 2014 05:11 PM (/jpU8)
True. And what the geniuses who defend Trayvon and MB don't consider is that their sky-is-falling circus of lies inclines people to discredit any such claims. In the event that there is a legitimate victim, makes it harder for him to be recognized. After you've used up all your apocalyptic rhetoric, what else is left. Think UVa.
That said, I know nothing about the Garner case, and so reserve judgement.
Posted by: pep at December 03, 2014 05:11 PM (4nR9/)
********
Shit this is flaring my dyslexia to eleventy...
"him" .
arrest ^him^.
Posted by: Your Friendly Danube River Guide at December 03, 2014 05:12 PM (RJMhd)
Hint: Follow the money.
Posted by: Big Squeegee at December 03, 2014 05:12 PM (8ZskC)
----
I disagree with this statement to some extent. Shouldn't we expect the state to use reasonable discretion when enforcing the law. There was a time when the police did this more than they do now. This is one potential downside to cameras on cops - I think it will cause them to stop using discretion because they are being filmed. Better to just do everything by the book. And of course there is some logic to that. But there is also logic to giving restraint where force is not necessary. Just because bad laws exist does not mean that the police need to always enforce such bad laws.
As I write all that I re-read Ace's point and he says to use force when resisting arrest. I'll let my paragraph above stand even though I misread Ace's sentence.
Posted by: SH at December 03, 2014 05:12 PM (gmeXX)
Posted by: Tex Lovera at December 03, 2014 05:12 PM (wtvvX)
Posted by: Carol at December 03, 2014 05:12 PM (sj3Ax)
Posted by: artisanal 'ette at December 03, 2014 05:12 PM (IXrOn)
Posted by: Thin veneer of civility at December 03, 2014 05:12 PM (XzRw1)
Posted by: Erowmero at December 03, 2014 05:12 PM (go5uR)
Deal with the stupid cig law later.
Posted by: Feh at December 03, 2014 05:12 PM (g/zj9)
I just read about this from Sean Davis' article over at The Federalist and was appalled at how shitty his article was.
Posted by: Burn the Witch at December 03, 2014 05:13 PM (xSCb6)
Remember Burt Reynolds in "The Longest Yard."
He punched a cop and wound up afoul of Eddie Albert.
Posted by: J.J. Sefton at December 03, 2014 05:13 PM (CMkNk)
Ahem.
You have been reported for being unhelpful.
Posted by: anon a mouse at December 03, 2014 05:13 PM (/jpU8)
Just smoking deserves a swat team
Posted by: Michael Bloomberg at December 03, 2014 05:13 PM (LoIJo)
Posted by: Your Friendly Danube River Guide at December 03, 2014 05:13 PM (RJMhd)
have to visibly crack down on the little stuff, if you want to prevent
the thugs thinking they can get away with big stuff.
Posted by: Rudy Guiliani at December 03, 2014 05:10 PM (LoIJo)
Yes, but Rudy made it zero tolerance. The cops were told to go after everything. The current NYPD picks and chooses, and that smacks of cronyism and favoritism.
Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at December 03, 2014 05:13 PM (Zu3d9)
Posted by: brak at December 03, 2014 05:14 PM (Tj+s6)
Great, we're going to have protestors walking around choking themselves now.
What's the motto for this one going going to be?
Posted by: Meremortal at December 03, 2014 05:14 PM (1Y+hH)
But as someone pointed out, tasing might have killed him too.
Posted by: eleven at December 03, 2014 05:14 PM (MDgS8)
Posted by: Your Friendly Danube River Guide at December 03, 2014 05:13 PM (RJMhd)
It's the subjunctive.
Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at December 03, 2014 05:14 PM (Zu3d9)
Posted by: David Carradine at December 03, 2014 05:14 PM (4nR9/)
Posted by: Chris not rock at December 03, 2014 05:14 PM (QaR2P)
Posted by: SH at December 03, 2014 05:15 PM (gmeXX)
Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at December 03, 2014 05:13 PM (Zu3d9)
Guess where I got my ideas of enforcement from...
Posted by: Eric Holder at December 03, 2014 05:15 PM (4OZqu)
If a cop wants to arrest you, shut up and get cuffed.
If you resist you much, you much be going to wind up in deeper shit.
Posted by: J.J. Sefton at December 03, 2014 05:15 PM (CMkNk)
Was he breaking the law and resisting arrest? Yes.
He has culpability too.
Posted by: Ricardo Kill at December 03, 2014 05:15 PM (LA7Cm)
Posted by: Meremortal at December 03, 2014 05:14 PM (1Y+hH)
I see no problem with this
Posted by: The Dude at December 03, 2014 05:15 PM (SyKbw)
Posted by: anon a mouse at December 03, 2014 05:15 PM (/jpU8)
Great, we're going to have protestors walking around choking themselves now.
Yeah, not such a good idea
Posted by: David Carradine at December 03, 2014 05:15 PM (LoIJo)
Posted by: Hrothgar at December 03, 2014 05:15 PM (fL/7/)
What's the motto for this one going going to be?
Posted by: Meremortal at December 03, 2014 05:14 PM (1Y+hH)
If he's dealin' smokes,
You must not choke!
Posted by: Tex Lovera at December 03, 2014 05:15 PM (wtvvX)
the cops argued they did not apply the forbidden choke hold, but another
and that they lacked intent to kill
which is irrelevant to negligent homicide
Posted by: SJW at December 03, 2014 05:16 PM (zOTsN)
And frankly, I'm fucking tired of having my intentions imputed impurely by someone who hasn't fucking spoken to me and is turning my opinion into his fucking opening fucking straw man argument.
It could be that someone other than motherfucking Ace of Spades has a differing FUCKING opinion that isn't just mewling self-serving bullshit like you claim.
It could be that people think - Hey, is it clearly self defense? That's where I start - is it self defense?
Not "Hey, does this make my butt look subservient to the media?" like you're accusing us of.
In short, fuck off, Ace. Blanket bullshit is still blanket bullshit.
Posted by: Inspector Cussword at December 03, 2014 05:16 PM (scgac)
Posted by: Dang at December 03, 2014 05:16 PM (MNq6o)
Posted by: Jenny Carter-Stienan-Jones at December 03, 2014 05:16 PM (Sd++4)
Posted by: andycanuck at December 03, 2014 05:16 PM (T4t+V)
The officer must have known this, and yet still decided to use the technique. I think there's some culpability there.
Posted by: Lauren at December 03, 2014 05:16 PM (BPMYx)
Every time you watch cops, the people being arrested say things like "Ow, that hurts, please stop, it hurts" when it's clear there's nothing going on. If someone says they can't breathe, they're obviously able to draw a breath to speak. Did the police assume he was just bellyaching like many arrestees do?
I've seen police brutality firsthand and it's ugly. Definitely not something to play around with. However, I'm just not seeing enough in this video for everyone to go around screaming that this guy got "the death penalty for selling cigarettes."
It's a stupid crime, it's also kind of a silly legal situation with the cigarettes, the police are usually reliable but not always and we didn't see enough to make a judgment either way. Now we've got the news/Obama hoping to see another riot.
In grappling, we often use the seatbelt to secure position when taking someone's back. I've been on the receiving end of a seatbelt more often than I care to admit and it is definitely not a choke with one arm in there. It becomes a choke only after you clear the arm. I saw the guy's arm in there while they were still standing. One arm under the chin and one arm under the armpit isn't enough to choke someone that big.
Not sure what happened later though. It's too early to freak.
Posted by: ElKomandante at December 03, 2014 05:16 PM (APQ2q)
Posted by: Fred "Garner" Sanford at December 03, 2014 05:16 PM (MMC8r)
This never would have happened if New York had outlawed cigarettes!
Posted by: Meremortal at December 03, 2014 05:16 PM (1Y+hH)
Speaking of Rudy, crime in the subways dropped to almost nil when the police cracked down hard on the turnstile jumpers.
The lesson is, not every turnstile jumper is a hardened criminal, but virtually every serious crime in the subway is committed by a turnstile jumper.
In Garner's rap sheet is as long and sordid as Johnny Wadd's cock.
Posted by: J.J. Sefton at December 03, 2014 05:17 PM (CMkNk)
He had a heart attack.
There was no damage to the trachea.
He wasn't choked unconscious. He wasn't choked to death.
Posted by: Costanza Defense at December 03, 2014 05:17 PM (ZPrif)
But I wasn't on the Grand Jury, but I have to respect the decision not to indict
Posted by: MikeH at December 03, 2014 05:17 PM (4OZqu)
Posted by: Dang at December 03, 2014 05:17 PM (MNq6o)
Posted by: eleven at December 03, 2014 05:14 PM (MDgS
but tazing would be viewed as 'humane'
Posted by: Thomas Edison at December 03, 2014 05:17 PM (LoIJo)
Posted by: --- at December 03, 2014 05:17 PM (MMC8r)
Posted by: Charles Harkins at December 03, 2014 05:17 PM (m6NkE)
I don't even want to look--yet, they may have a damn case here.
This is what Obama and the media risked when they took a case that lacked legitimacy--Michael Brown-- and raised it to a UN mention worthy event.
Posted by: Your Friendly Danube River Guide at December 03, 2014 05:17 PM (RJMhd)
Posted by: pookysgirl at December 03, 2014 05:17 PM (bRPUY)
Posted by: toby928(C) at December 03, 2014 05:17 PM (rwI+c)
"NO BODY BAGS FOR HUSTLING FAGS"?
This one may require some more work.
Posted by: Cicero (@cicero) at December 03, 2014 05:17 PM (8ZskC)
And frankly, I'm fucking tired of having my intentions imputed impurely by someone who hasn't fucking spoken to me and is turning my opinion into his fucking opening fucking straw man argument.
It could be that someone other than motherfucking Ace of Spades has a differing FUCKING opinion that isn't just mewling self-serving bullshit like you claim.
It could be that people think - Hey, is it clearly self defense? That's where I start - is it self defense?
Not "Hey, does this make my butt look subservient to the media?" like you're accusing us of.
In short, fuck off, Ace. Blanket bullshit is still blanket bullshit.
...
Okay, fair enough.
Posted by: ace at December 03, 2014 05:18 PM (/FnUH)
On June 22, 2010, the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) published a rule that restricts the sale, distribution, and marketing of cigarettes, cigarette tobacco, and smokeless tobacco products to protect children and adolescents. The rule is required by the Family Smoking Prevention and Tobacco Control Act
and is intended to protect kids by making tobacco products less accessible and attractive to them.
So, Mooch's idea?
Posted by: rickb223 at December 03, 2014 05:18 PM (LIoem)
Posted by: Drill_Thrawl at December 03, 2014 05:18 PM (xtpUs)
Posted by: Thin veneer of civility at December 03, 2014 05:18 PM (XzRw1)
Speaking of videos that show police acting stupidly, remember the Rodney King beating?
Turns out he was so whacked out on angel dust, it took the beating he received to finally calm him down.
I would imagine one good whack with a nightstick would be enough for most humans.
Posted by: J.J. Sefton at December 03, 2014 05:18 PM (CMkNk)
-------
Dude, don't let facts get in the way of the narrative.
Posted by: Michael Sam at December 03, 2014 05:18 PM (SQkRc)
>>Whose bright idea was that?
Remember Beverly Hills Cop? Probably the last funny movie Eddie Murphy has been in.
The opening scene is undercover trying to catch guys selling cigarettes without a tax stamp. Or Goodfellas when young Ray Liotta gets arrested for selling cigarettes from the trunk of a car?
It's been illegal to sell cigarettes without a tax stamp for a long, long, long time. Vic still in short pants.
Posted by: JackStraw at December 03, 2014 05:18 PM (g1DWB)
Posted by: maddogg at December 03, 2014 05:18 PM (xWW96)
Posted by: eleven at December 03, 2014 05:19 PM (MDgS8)
Posted by: J.J. Sefton at December 03, 2014 05:15 PM (CMkNk)
Is it cocktail hour already?
Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at December 03, 2014 05:19 PM (Zu3d9)
http://rt.com/usa/175304-nypd-chokehold-garner-subway/
I believe the officer here argued that this incident did not qualify as a choke hold.
Posted by: duke at December 03, 2014 05:19 PM (ChY2Q)
I'm not an expert. I'm a middle aged guy who's grappled with amateurs and pros in an attempt to stay in shape and learn something.
Here's the thing--grappling is messy. Positions change all the time as one person the reacts to the next.
So here's my take: The cop got the suspect in a HEADLOCK and not a choke when he took him down. When they ended on the ground he ended up rotated around the suspect's body in a rear naked choke position ... but it doesn't look at all like he intended to be there, nor does it look like he was squeezing it.
He also let it go after a few seconds.
You can't act like taking down a 400lb man is a clean, tidy encounter. It's not. I don't think the cop should be charged here.
Posted by: Warden at December 03, 2014 05:19 PM (wHAYQ)
Posted by: willow at December 03, 2014 05:19 PM (nqBYe)
He wasn't choked unconscious. He wasn't choked to death.
Posted by: Costanza Defense at December 03, 2014 05:17 PM (ZPrif)
There are two different types, blood and air chokes, if the NYPD uses blood there wouldn't be any trachea damage
Posted by: MikeH at December 03, 2014 05:19 PM (4OZqu)
Makes you wonder whether the weapons charge was legitimate. And if it was, then it makes you wonder whether the police specifically looked for something to bust the guy on because they were annoyed by the record.
Posted by: junior at December 03, 2014 05:20 PM (UWFpX)
Posted by: maddogg at December 03, 2014 05:18 PM (xWW96)
See me at #63.
Posted by: J.J. Sefton at December 03, 2014 05:20 PM (CMkNk)
This has happened in EVERY major city in America over the last few months. Just need to pick the ones' that will elicit the greatest amount of violence.
Posted by: Cicero Kaboom! Kid at December 03, 2014 05:20 PM (uSAVP)
Posted by: eleven
Helping a neighbor move a couch might have also killed him. Maybe they would prosecute the neighbor in that case.
Posted by: Dang at December 03, 2014 05:20 PM (MNq6o)
Is it mean to hope the next time a white cop kills a black person, he manages to set the perp on fire?
Posted by: Sort-of-Mad Max at December 03, 2014 05:20 PM (DLu2s)
IT'S TOO EARLY TO FREAK???
Posted by: Al Sharpton at December 03, 2014 05:20 PM (1Y+hH)
Posted by: anon a mouse at December 03, 2014 05:11 PM (/jpU
For the Children, then.
I'm on the side of we've got too damn many taxes and bullshit laws.
Posted by: rickl at December 03, 2014 05:20 PM (zoehZ)
Posted by: eleven
Mine would have.
--Tim The Tool Man Taylor
Posted by: rickb223 at December 03, 2014 05:21 PM (LIoem)
Several callers into the radio pointed out that the second arm being around the shoulder makes this a different hold that is considered a restraint.
Not that I know the specifics.
Posted by: --- at December 03, 2014 05:21 PM (MMC8r)
Posted by: Your Friendly Danube River Guide at December 03, 2014 05:21 PM (RJMhd)
Posted by: SJW at December 03, 2014 05:22 PM (zOTsN)
The insta-death magic "choke-hold" didn't kill the guy.
Posted by: Costanza Defense at December 03, 2014 05:22 PM (ZPrif)
Simple observations:
1. Garner didn't violently resist.
2. Police used a strange hold which was technically not allowed procedure.
3. Medical examiner ruled it a homicide.
4. This all happened over cigarettes. Half a dozen police officers violently drug a man down to the ground and accidentally killed him over cigarettes.
Posted by: RespectableAmericanUniversity at December 03, 2014 05:23 PM (nWv04)
Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at December 03, 2014 05:19 PM (Zu3d9)
**IS IT COCKTAIL HOUR ALREADY?!**
- - Al Sharkskin.
Posted by: J.J. Sefton at December 03, 2014 05:23 PM (CMkNk)
Posted by: Jenny Carter-Stienan-Jones at December 03, 2014 05:23 PM (Sd++4)
Posted by: Ricardo Kill at December 03, 2014 05:23 PM (LA7Cm)
There are certain fundamental Laws of Physics which people don't get. Namely, if you walk into me you will fall down.
Also, if I decide to run at you, full speed for 30-50', there's not much that's going to stop me. Unless you have a gun.
Or you are Batman.
and you're not Batman.
Posted by: BumperStickerist at December 03, 2014 05:23 PM (4CVLy)
you take your victim as you find them
the intent required is the intent to commit the act, not the intent to kill
still negligent homicide
Posted by: SJW at December 03, 2014 05:23 PM (zOTsN)
Posted by: ace at December 03, 2014 05:23 PM (/FnUH)
Posted by: Just Some Guy at December 03, 2014 05:24 PM (vgIRn)
If you're angry, then you support Obama.
Over to you "right wing pundit that is mad as hell about this"......
Posted by: Mr. Moo Moo at December 03, 2014 05:24 PM (0LHZx)
Guy died of a heart attack, homies. Sorry. Manhattan would be a cool place to loot, lots more choices and quality than Ferguson.
Posted by: Adjoran at December 03, 2014 05:24 PM (QIQ6j)
Posted by: AL SHARPTON!?? at December 03, 2014 05:24 PM (DLu2s)
Posted by: Your Friendly Danube River Guide at December 03, 2014 05:24 PM (RJMhd)
Posted by: Warden at December 03, 2014 05:24 PM (wHAYQ)
Posted by: eleven
Mine would have.
--Tim The Tool Man Taylor
Posted by: rickb223 at December 03, 2014 05:21 PM (LIoem)
He could kill most men with his breath.
Posted by: J.J. Sefton at December 03, 2014 05:24 PM (CMkNk)
Posted by: ThunderB at December 03, 2014 05:24 PM (zOTsN)
Hey, I agree. What a petty, chicken shit thing to get a man killed over.
Posted by: Ricardo Kill at December 03, 2014 05:24 PM (LA7Cm)
was, then it makes you wonder whether the police specifically looked for
something to bust the guy on because they were annoyed by the record.
We deny any and all of these type of allegations. Now move along.
Posted by: NY Police Union Local SI#999 at December 03, 2014 05:24 PM (XzRw1)
FORMER RNC CHAIRMAN ON #ERICGARNER: CLEARY BLACK LIVES DON'T MATTER
Former RNC Chairman Michael Steele was on MSNBC today to discuss the non-indictment in the Eric Garner case and was asked if this case was different from Ferguson. Steele responded that it was like Ferguson in that it was part of the same narrative, arguing that if you put the cases together and it's true that a prosecutor can indict a ham sandwich, then it's clear that black lives aren't worth a ham sandwich.
therightscoop
Posted by: artisanal 'ette at December 03, 2014 05:24 PM (IXrOn)
Totally wasn't the SS's fault; German society was to blame.
Posted by: RespectableAmericanUniversity at December 03, 2014 05:24 PM (nWv04)
The autopsy said hemorrhage. The second cop with the knee to the back of the head should have been charged.
Posted by: Golfman in NC at December 03, 2014 05:24 PM (Snhp1)
I wish police still felt free enough to wield the nightstick.
Choke holds always have the potential to kill.
But a good whack or hard poke with a nightstick would discourage most people
and with less potential damage.
Of course, that also requires a big cop.
Some of the little cops these days intimidate no one and that's why they use their guns.
Posted by: naturalfake at December 03, 2014 05:25 PM (0cMkb)
Posted by: NY Medical Examiner at December 03, 2014 05:25 PM (MMC8r)
Posted by: Vic at December 03, 2014 05:25 PM (u9gzs)
Posted by: MikeH
In the video you can see the perp is too fat to get a proper sides-of-the-neck choke hold so the cop's got his forearm against the front of the guy's throat for about 14 seconds. Not enough to choke a person to death. And after he releases the guy from that hold the perp's repeating, "I can't breath". This guy was absolutely not choked to death. The Medical Examiner may have some political motives or some bullshit going on.
Posted by: Dang at December 03, 2014 05:25 PM (MNq6o)
Posted by: garrett at December 03, 2014 05:25 PM (VV38Y)
Posted by: Adjoran at December 03, 2014 05:24 PM (QIQ6j)
I understand the cop lived on the Upper West Side.
(ahem!)
Posted by: J.J. Sefton at December 03, 2014 05:25 PM (CMkNk)
But wasn't it really Resisting Arrest at that point rather than cigarettes?
Posted by: eleven at December 03, 2014 05:25 PM (MDgS8)
this is where I have to disagree.
We do not pay them to use force, we pay them to arrest those who break the law, with the minimum violence needed.
Once 350 lbs guy was on the ground... he was no threat.... there were 4 or 5 cops on him...
The chokehold, which was against policy... was used anyway.
Even the Police may not use UNAUTHORIZED violence, when effecting an arrest...
Something hit me this morning... as I watched this video... cops have less stringent Rules of Engagement than I used to be given in some combat zones.
In Lebanon, in 83... just having a gun was not enough for me to shoot you... you had to actually be shooting at me...
Same for when I was boarding ships in the Gulf during Desert Storm...
Same for our guys in Afghanistan, and often in Iraq...
Yet if an American Cop even SEES a Weapon... he seems to be empowered to unload... as with the case of the kid with the Toy Gun...
I find that.... troubling....
Posted by: Wolf, Big Bad, 1 ea... at December 03, 2014 05:26 PM (f0pWu)
Posted by: --- at December 03, 2014 05:26 PM (MMC8r)
I wager 400 quatloos against the fat one.
Posted by: toby928(C) at December 03, 2014 05:26 PM (rwI+c)
Posted by: BackwardsBoy, Curmudgeon Extraordinaire at December 03, 2014 05:26 PM (0HooB)
Ferguson seems to have been very different.
Cops are taught to shoot when their own lives are endangered, which is as it should be, but maybe they should also be taught to first try to escape from what might become deadly confrontations. Play for time. Let overwhelming force of numbers make the point, if that is possible.
In Ferguson and elsewhere I wondered why Wilson didn't try to move his car away from the oncoming thug. Or, why not get out of the car, so that Wilson could have had better access to his baton or taser? The back-up car arrived 90 seconds after the confrontation ended, which should have allowed Wilson to play for time until more cops arrived on-scene and could well have spared Ferguson the riots, and the country this silly hectoring from the racialist left.
Better cop training is the lesson from Ferguson. STFU seems to be the lesson from Staten Island.
Posted by: MTF at December 03, 2014 05:26 PM (LISuA)
Posted by: ThunderB at December 03, 2014 05:27 PM (zOTsN)
Some of the little cops these days intimidate no one and that's why they use their guns.
Posted by: naturalfake at December 03, 2014 05:25 PM (0cMkb)
Hate to say it but all to many NYPD cops I see are either way too fat or short and female.
Posted by: J.J. Sefton at December 03, 2014 05:27 PM (CMkNk)
Posted by: FenelonSpoke at December 03, 2014 05:27 PM (FS3xS)
Some jurisdictions have banned "choke-holds", but it's mostly for PR. They end up having to use more force without them.
Posted by: Costanza Defense at December 03, 2014 05:27 PM (ZPrif)
Posted by: --- at December 03, 2014 05:27 PM (MMC8r)
Posted by: Chavez the Hugo at December 03, 2014 05:27 PM (ucDmr)
Posted by: RioBravo at December 03, 2014 05:27 PM (z27Ny)
1. Garner didn't violently resist.
Violent or non-violent, if you resist arrest police are allowed to use reasonable force to bring you into compliance.
>>>2. Police used a strange hold which was technically not allowed procedure.
Yeah I don't know about this.
>>>3. Medical examiner ruled it a homicide.
A homicide is any death caused by the hand of man, that is, not an accident or not simply disease or age.
>>>4. This all happened over cigarettes. Half a dozen police officers violently drug a man down to the ground and accidentally killed him over cigarettes.
See, you say that, but what it really was about was his refusal to accept a minor arrest over actual, real lawbreaking.
I agree the cigarette thing was minor. But his refusal to accept the arrest was more major.
If I drive at 80 mph, that may be a minor infraction. But if I think commit felony flight to avoid arrest, I have myself transformed a minor infraction into a very much more serious one.
Posted by: ace at December 03, 2014 05:27 PM (/FnUH)
*******
I think you could term this as, you've reached-
Maximum Media Bullshit Fatigue.
( there's probably a more adult term for "bullshit."--rabble rousing?)
Posted by: Your Friendly Danube River Guide at December 03, 2014 05:27 PM (RJMhd)
Hey, at least that cop made it home to see his family that night.
All that matters. Right? Right?
Posted by: Ricardo Kill at December 03, 2014 05:28 PM (LA7Cm)
Posted by: Dang at December 03, 2014 05:25 PM (MNq6o)
Yep, I was just pointing out the different kind of choke holds, as noted above he died of a hemorrhage not asphyxia or strangulation
Posted by: MikeH at December 03, 2014 05:28 PM (4OZqu)
MUMR is on daylight saving time now. Here an hour earlier these days.
Posted by: Al Sharpton at December 03, 2014 05:28 PM (1Y+hH)
Van Jones has already tossed out the "lynching" analogy.
That will probably be the symbology they use on this one.
/sigh
Posted by: artisanal 'ette at December 03, 2014 05:28 PM (IXrOn)
That he was complaining about not being able to breath... and from various accounts, no one tried to aid him...
They were too busy arresting him...
Posted by: Wolf, Big Bad, 1 ea... at December 03, 2014 05:28 PM (f0pWu)
Chokeholds fell into severe disfavor in LE circles in the '80s b/c cops were REALLY good at choking people out as a 2d resort for a lot of years.
1993 NYT article on ban
http://tinyurl.com/mjm7us6
1991 article on LAPD
http://tinyurl.com/ljly85r
Anyway if the guy violated policy he *should* have lost the sovereign immunity deference LE is often granted....
my read on it anyway, but at the end of the day if NYC is down with DeStalino's Kafkaesque levels of control they should expect collateral damage.
Posted by: Sven S Blade a.k.a. El Assassin@sven10077 at December 03, 2014 05:29 PM (/4AZU)
Another question is should we need to take down a 400lb man over...cigarettes?
This reminds me of the young adult with down syndrome who was killed in a similar manner when he got aggravated at the movie theater.
Was physical restraint necessary in either case?
Posted by: Lauren at December 03, 2014 05:29 PM (BPMYx)
Posted by: Insomniac at December 03, 2014 05:29 PM (mx5oN)
According to press reports, the coroner says the CH was a factor, but I don't really trust the media on this stuff.
Posted by: spongeworthy at December 03, 2014 05:29 PM (zAyKs)
German society WAS to blame. The SS undertook the policy they agreed to.
Posted by: ace at December 03, 2014 05:29 PM (/FnUH)
The main problem here is that we have police with more power than intelligence to use it.
Posted by: Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus at December 03, 2014 05:29 PM (U+vgB)
Posted by: Judge Napolitano at December 03, 2014 05:29 PM (yRj9r)
Posted by: Buster Hymantd at December 03, 2014 05:29 PM (yiZrh)
>>Even the Police may not use UNAUTHORIZED violence, when effecting an arrest...
That claim is in dispute and I've watched the video about 10 times and I didn't see a choke hold. I believe the coroners report is indicating the contributing cause (in addition to obesity, high blood pressure and asthma) was compression to the chest.
Posted by: JackStraw at December 03, 2014 05:29 PM (g1DWB)
He said this after the choke was released. Regardless, the medical examiner ruled it a homicide, said the pressure from the choke contributed to the death.
Just my 2 cents: been doing sport grappling for a bout a decade now, and the choke applied was definitely dangerous and stupid. Chokes that cross the wind-pipe are both inefficient and dangerous, because 1. they risk crushing the wind-pipe, and 2. even without air a person can stay conscious for a decent amount of time.
If you want to choke someone, blood chokes (look up an X-choke in Brazilian jiu jitsu) are much safer and are essentially instantaneous in application. Without blood the the brain you almost instantly go unconscious. Furthermore, once pressure is released the elastic blood veins uncompress and instantly restore blood flow. I've seen people go unconscious within 3 sec of a blood choke being applied, then come to even faster once it was released.
If cops are going to be choking us on the street for petty shit like selling cigarettes, then for god's sake learn some actual grappling like BJJ or Judo rather than killing us with sloppy Rex Kwan Do.
Posted by: RespectableAmericanUniversity at December 03, 2014 05:30 PM (nWv04)
All that matters. Right? Right?
Posted by: Ricardo Kill at December 03, 2014 05:28 PM (LA7Cm)
right
Posted by: MikeH at December 03, 2014 05:30 PM (4OZqu)
Posted by: Boss Moss at December 03, 2014 05:30 PM (ZeBBB)
Posted by: J.J. Sefton at December 03, 2014 05:30 PM (CMkNk)
When doesn't he? He orders Chinese takeout with a side of lynching accusations.
Posted by: pep at December 03, 2014 05:30 PM (4nR9/)
Check the Gracie breakdown. Interesting. About 9:00 in. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nql1xRtWKOU h/t @DeaconSchroeder
Posted by: Costanza Defense at December 03, 2014 05:30 PM (ZPrif)
Posted by: NY Police Union Local SI#999 at December 03, 2014 05:30 PM (XzRw1)
Posted by: Michael Sam at December 03, 2014 05:30 PM (Ktnum)
If we choose to no longer give the benefit of the doubt to an officer of the law, then that's fine. I guess I'll just have to buy more ammo.
Posted by: Not an Artist at December 03, 2014 05:31 PM (uRumV)
Posted by: ace at December 03, 2014 05:29 PM (/FnUH)
------
Agreed to the policies via what. A Gallup poll?
Posted by: RioBravo at December 03, 2014 05:31 PM (z27Ny)
"It's not like the cops wanted to be there. We were paying them to have this encounter. Having this encounter was the duty we charged them with."
That's not entirely accurate. Those officers were responding to a separate call. They're in that area of the island (I live close by) rather often. They chose to engage Garner after the fact. Six officers approaching a man selling loosies. You do the math.
Moreover, yes, while we pay them to enforce laws - any laws - they have discretion to treat nonviolent suspects as they see fit. A citation-summons was perfectly acceptable here. They knew who Eric Garner was. He didn't just appear out of nowhere.
I know many officers who operate out of that precinct (120th). I like most of them. But this was a gross display of force, not to mention a complete lack of aide to a dying man. There should have been an indictment. This isn't about some bullshit "taking sides, trying to be a liberal" tactic to make us sound more compassionate. How about seeing something objectively, for fuck's sake?
Posted by: Lee at December 03, 2014 05:31 PM (UnXAf)
Posted by: Krebs v Carnot: Epic Battle of the Cycling Stars(TM) at December 03, 2014 05:31 PM (Lk67m)
Posted by: toby928(C) at December 03, 2014 05:31 PM (rwI+c)
Posted by: SJW
He looked about as big as your average fat ass football player. How the hell is the cop supposed to do a quick medical examination to see if they guy can handle getting pushed to the ground. That "take them as you find them" is not a you-don't-get-to-touch-me-EVER card.
Posted by: Dang at December 03, 2014 05:31 PM (MNq6o)
Posted by: bjk at December 03, 2014 05:31 PM (DOgiJ)
Snow Crash as a reality.
http://www.ufunk.net/techno/omnipresenz/
And you thought the Google glasses were bad.
Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at December 03, 2014 05:32 PM (I9oW4)
Seriously, I want to know where the lines are here.
Posted by: Brother Cavil at December 03, 2014 05:32 PM (DT3rQ)
Timmy Lee @MMA_Timmy 2m
@FoxNews @renergracie @ryrongracie wish everyone watched Gracie Breakdown. This was not a "choke!" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nql1xRtWKOU
#NYPD #EricGarner
Posted by: Costanza Defense at December 03, 2014 05:32 PM (ZPrif)
Chokeholds are not meant to be compliance tools, tasers are supposed to be a level below that BUT the moonbats are trying to ban them as well...
people have put the cops in a horrible double and triple bind.
Posted by: Sven S Blade a.k.a. El Assassin@sven10077 at December 03, 2014 05:32 PM (/4AZU)
Posted by: Lincolntf at December 03, 2014 05:32 PM (2cS/G)
And this magically removes culpability from the SS?
I'm sorry, but law enforcement need to think who they really should be protecting before mindlessly serving orders. Like this story for example
http://tinyurl.com/brseb
Everyone is basically one non-violent offense away from being shot by an alphabet agency.
Posted by: Roadrunner at December 03, 2014 05:33 PM (nWv04)
Tough to see clearly, but it looks like his windpipe was in the crook of the cop's elbow, which is exactly how I was taught to choke out in that position.
Carotid choke, not airway choke.
There are other ways to do it, so YMMV.
Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at December 03, 2014 05:33 PM (Zu3d9)
Or "Man dies of heart attack resisting arrest for violating State-Licensed Cigarette Monopoly."
Posted by: toby928(C) at December 03, 2014 05:33 PM (rwI+c)
Same for when I was boarding ships in the Gulf during Desert Storm...
Same for our guys in Afghanistan, and often in Iraq...
Yet if an American Cop even SEES a Weapon... he seems to be empowered to unload... as with the case of the kid with the Toy Gun...
I find that.... troubling....
Posted by: Wolf, Big Bad, 1 ea... at December 03, 2014 05:26 PM (f0pWu)
Were u sent there to make an arrest?
Posted by: Cicero Kaboom! Kid at December 03, 2014 05:33 PM (uSAVP)
Posted by: Costanza Defense at December 03, 2014 05:34 PM (ZPrif)
Posted by: MTF at December 03, 2014 05:34 PM (LISuA)
Jack I was lectured on what I called "using the force" when I lifted a perp by his neck...
necks are a NO NO bad touch area unless you are in defense of life...
BAD SVEN...Officer Doughnut NOT USE chokes SVEN NOT USE chokes...
Posted by: Sven S Blade a.k.a. El Assassin@sven10077 at December 03, 2014 05:34 PM (/4AZU)
Posted by: Nathanael at December 03, 2014 05:34 PM (hONkR)
Or "Man dies of heart attack resisting arrest for violating State-Licensed Cigarette Monopoly."
But will it be listed as a "tobacco-related" death?
Posted by: Brother Cavil at December 03, 2014 05:34 PM (DT3rQ)
Posted by: Leonard Pinth-Garnell at December 03, 2014 05:34 PM (8grkz)
German society WAS to blame. The SS undertook the policy they agreed to.
Posted by: ace at December 03, 2014 05:29 PM (/FnUH)
************
Completely agree.
One man--not even God in most religions is responsible for everything.
Thinking Hitler was a one off--is a big mistake.
I'm sure Germany wishes it was that simple.
Pre-determination wasn't all to blame either.
Posted by: Your Friendly Danube River Guide at December 03, 2014 05:34 PM (RJMhd)
Another question is should we need to take down a 400lb man over...cigarettes?
So if he resists, you do what?
Posted by: --- at December 03, 2014 05:35 PM (MMC8r)
He had heart disease and asthma and had a heart attack from the stress and exertion of resisting arrest.
Posted by: Costanza Defense at December 03, 2014 05:35 PM (ZPrif)
Posted by: Boss Moss at December 03, 2014 05:35 PM (ZeBBB)
I read this on Wikipedia, but apparently the police had been called in to break up a fight and Garner was somehow involved. Garner's family claim he was breaking up the fight. Ahem. He pitched a fit when the police were talking to him, and that's when the video was recorded and then he died.
Honestly? Police didn't do anything here. It's pretty much all on him.
Posted by: sunny-dee at December 03, 2014 05:35 PM (EBoCD)
Can we at least put aside the choke hold myth.
By the way, the autopsy report came out on August 1st. Heck of a job, msm.
http://tinyurl.com/n38pnh7
Posted by: JackStraw at December 03, 2014 05:35 PM (g1DWB)
Posted by: Costanza Defense at December 03, 2014 05:36 PM (ZPrif)
Excessive force by a mile. A dude pulling his hands away is not cause for an immediate neck take-down by whatever cop is wearing the green "99" tee-shirt. It's bullshit. And once the guy starts calling for help - they really don't do much about it. Folks - if THIS is the level of force you want today's cops exercising on the street - count me out.
And ACE - your argument is the same old tired horseshit of "We Pay Them to Do This". I don't willingly pay a fucking thing to support this kind of behavior - that money's taken from me under threat of force and used against my wishes.
Posted by: ScoggDog at December 03, 2014 05:36 PM (xWPj1)
No indictment.
Your choices are:
1. Run around protesting like an idiot with your hands to your throat.
2. Waste time discussing the various restraint methods of the police.
3. Shaddup.
4. Go straight to the rioting, burning your own neighborhood.
I'm going with 3, cyaround.
Posted by: Al Sharpton at December 03, 2014 05:36 PM (1Y+hH)
I thought the police should have been culpable at first glance long ago; but, you've reminded me of being much more analytical here WRT what we task these peace officers of doing on our behalf and the MFM's narrative invention to "make a difference."
I'm not going all on on this one either way. This case, unlike the previous two ginned up episodes, is, however, quite tragic. I'm truly sad for all parties involved.
You know, if you ran for office, Ace, you might be able to convince me on some issues. Some. Not all, but some. I mean, you aren't Reagan or Christ, but you're clearly next tier.
Posted by: AnonymousDrivel at December 03, 2014 05:36 PM (1CroS)
Oh great, now CNN will spend the next, how many days, showing 24/7 coverage of the difference between a choke-hold and whatever...
My eyes are beginning to glaze over already.
Posted by: artisanal 'ette at December 03, 2014 05:36 PM (IXrOn)
Posted by: rod at December 03, 2014 05:36 PM (bXjRM)
Posted by: Thin veneer of civility at December 03, 2014 05:36 PM (XzRw1)
That's where this comes down for me. This was wrong.
Posted by: Christopher Taylor at December 03, 2014 05:36 PM (39g3+)
You can't just kill a citizen because they resist arrest [for such a picayune offense].
So, in this case, fuck the police. The cop who killed this man should be charged.
Posted by: Soothsayer's Imaginary Home For Incorrigible Boys & Girls at December 03, 2014 05:36 PM (rTCJ6)
Posted by: Barak O'Preezy at December 03, 2014 05:36 PM (IXPIt)
Posted by: Golfman in NC at December 03, 2014 05:36 PM (wVWRM)
Posted by: Dr. McCoy at December 03, 2014 05:37 PM (F192H)
Posted by: sunny-dee at December 03, 2014 05:37 PM (EBoCD)
This reminds me of the young adult with down syndrome who was killed in a similar manner when he got aggravated at the movie theater.
Was physical restraint necessary in either case?
Posted by: Lauren at
*************
Well, that's kind of ace's point, isn't it? The cops are paid to enforce our laws--even the stupid ones.
Maybe the law shouldn't exist.
But once someone starts to resist, what are the cops supposed to do? Let him go?
Posted by: Warden at December 03, 2014 05:37 PM (wHAYQ)
Posted by: Not an Artist at December 03, 2014 05:31 PM (uRumV)
I have to disagree. The State has a Monopoly on Violence... to give them the ONLY legal group the 'benefit of the doubt' when they use violence... against sovereign citizens who DO have Rights to Life Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness....
Leans the wrong way IMO... with their training... they should be held to a HIGHER standard... not a lower one.
Because THAT is part of their job... just like following the UCMJ was in the Military.
Posted by: Wolf, Big Bad, 1 ea... at December 03, 2014 05:37 PM (f0pWu)
By definition - the deliberate and unlawful killing of one person by another; murder.
No, it wasn't
Posted by: MikeH at December 03, 2014 05:37 PM (4OZqu)
Posted by: Soona at December 03, 2014 05:38 PM (IXPIt)
Funny you should ask...
http://youtu.be/o3-MrFOLXFs
Cincy PD vs Natahaniel Joness at a White Castle...
400 pounders tend to die if you goose their oxygen too much or get 'em too excited on stimulants.
Posted by: Sven S Blade a.k.a. El Assassin@sven10077 at December 03, 2014 05:38 PM (/4AZU)
Posted by: naturalfake at December 03, 2014 05:38 PM (0cMkb)
Posted by: Mallamutt, RINO President of the Sheena Easton Fan Club at December 03, 2014 05:38 PM (OWjjx)
Posted by: eleven at December 03, 2014 05:38 PM (MDgS8)
Posted by: Havedash at December 03, 2014 05:39 PM (G1XMn)
Posted by: Fritz at December 03, 2014 05:39 PM (dVmLD)
Posted by: Costanza Defense at December 03, 2014 05:39 PM (ZPrif)
Oh great, now CNN will spend the next, how many days, showing 24/7 coverage of the difference between a choke-hold and whatever...
My eyes are beginning to glaze over already.
Posted by: artisanal 'ette at December 03, 2014 05:36 PM (IXrOn)
********
CNN's not the only network in town!
Tune in tonight as "The Architect" Karl Rove analyzes choke-holds!
Posted by: Sean Hannity at December 03, 2014 05:39 PM (vgIRn)
Posted by: sunny-dee at December 03, 2014 05:39 PM (EBoCD)
Legit cause to use force to effect arrest
Illegit method of force, contributing to death
Pretty easy to distinguish this from others
Posted by: Monty at December 03, 2014 05:39 PM (YTxfG)
Posted by: Reggie Love at December 03, 2014 05:40 PM (LoIJo)
Posted by: Lincolntf at December 03, 2014 05:40 PM (2cS/G)
Then why again precisely does HUD have a commando team?
The point here is you as a citizen do not have "sovereign veto over my getting arrested bee-yotch" as so many of a particular ethnic persuausion seem to believe...
take your fucking arrest fight the charges....you DO NOT get to just walk away.
Posted by: Sven S Blade a.k.a. El Assassin@sven10077 at December 03, 2014 05:40 PM (/4AZU)
By definition - the deliberate and unlawful killing of one person by another; murder.
No, it wasn't
Posted by: MikeH at December 03, 2014 05:37 PM (4OZqu)
You are incorrect. The Medical Examiner ruled it a homicide.
Posted by: Insomniac at December 03, 2014 05:40 PM (mx5oN)
He moved his arms. You're not arresting someone for murdering a toddler. What happened to talking to people as people?
Posted by: Lauren at December 03, 2014 05:40 PM (BPMYx)
Not taking sides in this one, two thugs fought, one died, what else is new?
Posted by: ExPat Patriot at December 03, 2014 05:40 PM (eheK1)
I say this as a guy with a cholesterol of 160.
Which happens to be my resting heart rate.
and at 190 over 150 I don't consider my blood pressure to be high .. I think it's competitive.
My Body-Mass Index? One.
Just .. One.
... but seriously ... you don't get to choose which unhealthy behavior to demonize. I'm looking at you gay people, and smokers, and pot smokers ... and alcohol drinkers, and asexual gamers, and bloggers.
Posted by: BumperStickerist at December 03, 2014 05:40 PM (4CVLy)
And no I can't link a TV show I saw once.
Posted by: eleven at December 03, 2014 05:41 PM (MDgS8)
Posted by: ThunderB at December 03, 2014 05:41 PM (ztxq/)
My partial read as well, I don't know departmental poliy in NYC well enough to opine with precision....
this wouldn't have flown in Ohio it would have been a violation of procedure.
Posted by: Sven S Blade a.k.a. El Assassin@sven10077 at December 03, 2014 05:41 PM (/4AZU)
But the dude wasn't choked to death and murdered by cops.
The cop kneeling on his back and compressing his chest contributed more to the death than the cop applying the magic talisman "choke-hold".
Posted by: Costanza Defense at December 03, 2014 05:41 PM (ZPrif)
Posted by: Bill from Chappaqua at December 03, 2014 05:41 PM (LoIJo)
That's where the disconnect is here. The officer may (or may not) have used a choke hold; and Eric Garner died; but it seems pretty clear that he wasn't "choked to death."
Posted by: duke at December 03, 2014 05:41 PM (ChY2Q)
Posted by: Boss Moss at December 03, 2014 05:41 PM (ZeBBB)
Posted by: Warden at December 03, 2014 05:42 PM (wHAYQ)
So, in this case, fuck the police. The cop who killed this man should be charged.
Posted by: Soothsayer's Imaginary Home For Incorrigible Boys & Girls at December 03, 2014 05:36 PM (rTCJ6)
Yeah that's my attitude. Every fucking crime these days seems to be treated like it was a frigging murder.
Posted by: Berserker-Dragonheads Division at December 03, 2014 05:42 PM (FMbng)
He had heart disease and asthma and had a heart attack from the stress and exertion of resisting arrest.
Posted by: Costanza Defense
I just want this repeated. That's all.
Posted by: Dang at December 03, 2014 05:42 PM (MNq6o)
I cannot shout this enough. The police weren't there because he was selling cigarettes. That was his previous arrest. They were there because of a reported fight that he was involved in.
Posted by: sunny-dee at December 03, 2014 05:42 PM (EBoCD)
Posted by: Costanza Defense at December 03, 2014 05:42 PM (ZPrif)
^THIS.
I'm getting fed up with people, including here, proudly trumpeting their refusal to obey a particular law as if it's based on some sort of principled stand, as opposed to just run of the mill lawlessness.
There's a difference between civil disobedience and "I'm too much of a special snowflake to follow laws I don't like."
Posted by: Y-not at December 03, 2014 05:42 PM (9BRsg)
Posted by: Costanza Defense at December 03, 2014 05:43 PM (ZPrif)
Posted by: FenelonSpoke at December 03, 2014 05:43 PM (FS3xS)
Posted by: Boss Moss at December 03, 2014 05:43 PM (ZeBBB)
Maybe the law shouldn't exist.
But once someone starts to resist, what are the cops supposed to do? Let him go? "
Any application of law assumes some kind of common sense. For example, recently in Texas a young woman was jogging while listening to music and inadvertently jaywalked. A police officer standing nearby grabbed her arm from behind. She of course didn't hear him over the headphones, and couldn't see him, and reacted by pulling her arm away in fear and initially resisting out of confusion. Before she could realize what was going on the policeman had manhandled her and taken her to the ground.
He claimed it was justified, because she was "resisting". These kinds of justifications can be strained beyond any credibility obviously. If I run a redlight while driving my wife to the emergency room, could police justifiably open fire on my car because I broke the law?
Any application of law enforcement assumes reasonable responses that match the context.
As another random story, a family member who lives in the country once nearly got in a fight with police over a fire in his house. A wall was smoking and a fireman had ordered him to leave, and he refused because he didn't trust the judgment of the idiot volunteer fireman. The policeman then began threatening to handcuff and get physical over the person disobeying the fireman's orders. By defying both policeman and fireman he eventually located where in the wall the electrical short was, and prevented the fire from spreading. Should the police have just beat his ass to the ground for resisting orders?
Context is everything.
Posted by: Roadrunner at December 03, 2014 05:43 PM (nWv04)
Cops are taught to over react its SOP
Posted by: Tighter at December 03, 2014 05:43 PM (VeSLE)
Posted by: Erowmero at December 03, 2014 05:43 PM (go5uR)
Succinct Sven.
Posted by: Golfman in NC at December 03, 2014 05:43 PM (wVWRM)
Posted by: Governor Jay Nixon at December 03, 2014 05:43 PM (LoIJo)
We have not yet reached the point where facts matter apparently.
Posted by: JackStraw at December 03, 2014 05:43 PM (g1DWB)
The problem is the left and its MFM arm have made everyone believe we are still in the age of Jim Crow and that every cop is Bull Connor.
The effect will now be that cops will be paralyzed from doing their duty and people will not want to go into law enforcement.
Posted by: J.J. Sefton at December 03, 2014 05:43 PM (CMkNk)
Posted by: Michelle's Food Police at December 03, 2014 05:43 PM (RJMhd)
By definition - the deliberate and unlawful killing of one person by another; murder.
No, it wasn't
Posted by: MikeH at December 03, 2014 05:37 PM (4OZqu)
You are incorrect. The Medical Examiner ruled it a homicide.
Posted by: Insomniac at December 03, 2014 05:40 PM (mx5oN)
I researched it and the ME definition is different from what is in the dictionary
Homicide - occurs when death results from an injury or poisoning or from a volitional act committed by another person to cause fear, harm, or death. Intent to cause death is a common element but is not required for classification as homicide.
Posted by: MikeH at December 03, 2014 05:44 PM (4OZqu)
That said, i don't jump on the string him up bandwagon, either. Let the story play out and trust a jury to decide what's best.
I liken these three incidents to a quote from Mr. Blonde in Reservoir Dogs: "If they hadn't done what I told 'em not to do, they'd still be alive."
Posted by: Wyatt Earp at December 03, 2014 05:44 PM (gA69l)
He had heart disease and asthma and had a heart attack from the stress and exertion of resisting arrest.
Posted by: Costanza Defense
I just want this repeated. That's all.
Posted by: Dang at December 0
OK, here you go...
Posted by: Al Sharpton at December 03, 2014 05:44 PM (1Y+hH)
Don't fight with the Police
Don't talk back to the Poilce
Don't say anything to the Police other than "Yes Sir" or "I want to speak to an attorney"
Don't act like an ignorant animal
Don't break the law
Don't break the same law over and over again ( this asshole kept selling illegal cigerattes over and over again) and had been arrested for it before
Posted by: Nevergiveup at December 03, 2014 05:44 PM (op9Rd)
Maybe a segment on how Dana choke holds her mutt when it doesn't take it's pills?
Posted by: Thin veneer of civility at December 03, 2014 05:44 PM (XzRw1)
Posted by: Darth Randall at December 03, 2014 05:44 PM (6n332)
I better take a break, life is becoming too stressful. Again, my apologies for the stream of invective.
Posted by: Inspector Cussword at December 03, 2014 05:44 PM (scgac)
Posted by: ThunderB at December 03, 2014 05:44 PM (ztxq/)
Nobody seems to care about the excessive force used on me!
Posted by: the sidewalk at December 03, 2014 05:44 PM (wAQA5)
Eric Garner did not run away and then reverse himself and attack.
The choke hold applied was illegal under NYC Police Procedures.
That officer should at least be charged with involuntary manslaughter.
That he received NOTHING is a real slap in the face to the LAW.
Rewarding bad behavior only begets more bad behavior on the part of the police and prosecutors.
Posted by: Bitter Clinger and All That at December 03, 2014 05:44 PM (KK+mC)
***
That's pretty much what I've been saying all afternoon. I've got right at 25 years in the martial arts and 20 of those have been in Japanese jujutsu and aikijujutsu.
Chokes like hadaka jime that work without using clothing as an assist close off the carotid arteries. It's considered safe since once blood flow is back you come around fairly easily albeit with a major headache. Crushing the trachea is reserved for when you've ceased to give a shit and are fighting for your life.
The issue is that even with a "safe technique" like a carotid choke, you're still fucking with the cardiovascular system and if you've got a medical history shit might happen. Cops can't exactly hand out a medical history form beforehand. Folks are choked in the dojo and martial arts matches all over the world every minute of every day without death.
No one wants to hear shit happens but it does. Guys have stroked out riding a Taser, being in handcuffs, and while actually fighting the cops.
Bad health is bad health whether you're huffing and puffing from fighting or running a mile.
Like I said on Twitter, if you want to immediately lower the rate of death involving cops, stop fucking making 3 out of every 5 things a normal person does illegal.
Posted by: B at December 03, 2014 05:44 PM (oHWN4)
That's where the disconnect is here. The officer may (or may not) have used a choke hold; and Eric Garner died; but it seems pretty clear that he wasn't "choked to death."
which techniques would not have overtaxed his heart?
Posted by: ace at December 03, 2014 05:44 PM (/FnUH)
Posted by: Insomniac
And government officials are always right.
Posted by: Dang at December 03, 2014 05:44 PM (MNq6o)
Posted by: Sean Hannity at December 03, 2014 05:39 PM (vgIRn)
If only Karl Rove would choke.
Posted by: J.J. Sefton at December 03, 2014 05:44 PM (CMkNk)
When you're taught choke-holds, the FIRST thing your instructor tells you is that they are lethal.
Posted by: Soothsayer's Imaginary Home For Incorrigible Boys & Girls at December 03, 2014 05:44 PM (rTCJ6)
I fear there are some here who would say yes.
Posted by: Insomniac at December 03, 2014 05:44 PM (mx5oN)
Posted by: Boss Moss at December 03, 2014 05:41 PM (ZeBBB)
Boss Moss, not sure if you were addressing me but the show I saw was one of those true story type shows. The ME was a real person.
Posted by: eleven at December 03, 2014 05:44 PM (MDgS8)
Posted by: duke at December 03, 2014 05:45 PM (ChY2Q)
I say this as a guy with a cholesterol of 160.
Which happens to be my resting heart rate.
What are you, a Chihuahua?
Posted by: Soothsayer's Imaginary Home For Incorrigible Boys & Girls at December 03, 2014 05:45 PM (rTCJ6)
Posted by: Costanza Defense at December 03, 2014 05:45 PM (ZPrif)
Posted by: Y-not at December 03, 2014 05:42 PM (9BRsg)
-------------------------------------
Very much in agreement, Y-not. And with that I'm off to work.
Posted by: Soona at December 03, 2014 05:45 PM (IXPIt)
Posted by: Boss Moss at December 03, 2014 05:45 PM (ZeBBB)
--
And that didn't happen in this case.
Posted by: Costanza Defense at December 03, 2014 05:46 PM (ZPrif)
Posted by: Nevergiveup at December 03, 2014 05:46 PM (op9Rd)
Choke-hold! Choke-hold! Choke-hold!
Posted by: Costanza Defense at December 03, 2014 05:47 PM (ZPrif)
Well, I usually start with a few small stones and my sling.
Posted by: David at December 03, 2014 05:47 PM (MMC8r)
Posted by: Boss Moss at December 03, 2014 05:47 PM (ZeBBB)
Posted by: sunny-dee at December 03, 2014 05:47 PM (EBoCD)
This special snowflake shit is infiltrating the military NGU and sooner or later it is gonna have a high body count....
Do what the fuck you are told, fight injustice within channels.
Posted by: Sven S Blade a.k.a. El Assassin@sven10077 at December 03, 2014 05:47 PM (/4AZU)
Posted by: ace
Soothing music and some gentle whispering?
Posted by: Dang at December 03, 2014 05:47 PM (MNq6o)
Posted by: J.J. Sefton at December 03, 2014 05:43 PM (CMkNk)
-----------------
Exactly fucking right. Which is why I'm ordering more 9mm ammo.
Posted by: Not an Artist at December 03, 2014 05:47 PM (uRumV)
Posted by: Whatever you say at December 03, 2014 05:47 PM (eeEDq)
Posted by: B at December 03, 2014 05:44 PM (oHWN4)
A billion times THIS.
Posted by: Berserker-Dragonheads Division at December 03, 2014 05:47 PM (FMbng)
Pretty sure the Iron Sheik had that move.
Posted by: Costanza Defense at December 03, 2014 05:45 PM (ZPrif)
When it comes to grips, we were there first.
Posted by: the Vulcans at December 03, 2014 05:48 PM (CMkNk)
Posted by: BumperStickerist at December 03, 2014 05:40 PM (4CVLy)
**********
Asexual?
Is there something wrong with that?
Posted by: Michelle's Food Police at December 03, 2014 05:48 PM (RJMhd)
Posted by: Thin veneer of civility at December 03, 2014 05:48 PM (XzRw1)
Sorry, but I am tired of people who don't know all the facts, who eere not present to judge the demeanor of the witnesses and were not read the instructions of the law substituting their "judgment" over a jury's because they saw a video on t.v.
Posted by: Mallamutt, RINO President of the Sheena Easton Fan Club at December 03, 2014 05:48 PM (OWjjx)
I give myself brownie points for not taking the liberal side in any of those cases. and what are those brownie points worth? well nothing except it reminds me of brownies and I might get one.
Posted by: Guy Mohawk at December 03, 2014 05:48 PM (NtzGn)
waste of a human body who had a heart attack that would probably have
claimed him anyway in the next few years.
---
Red meat killed him. Probably from cows raised in Texas, land of racist rocks!
Posted by: Hillary Clinton, elderly vegan at December 03, 2014 05:48 PM (9BRsg)
Posted by: J.J. Sefton at December 03, 2014 05:48 PM (CMkNk)
THIS WASN'T ABOUT CIGARETTES.
This was about a fight that Garner was involved in. How he is involved is kind of unclear because he started shouting at cops and trying to get away when they tried to question him. And then he died.
Posted by: sunny-dee at December 03, 2014 05:49 PM (EBoCD)
Posted by: Boss Moss at December 03, 2014 05:49 PM (ZeBBB)
That was my question: Would such a hold (if it were even used here) be against law, or just against policy?
Posted by: --- at December 03, 2014 05:49 PM (MMC8r)
--
not true. At least if you are talking about the mythical choke-hold.
Mythical? Forearm across windpipe causes bad stuff to happen to the person who owns said windpipe.That's why departments banned the practice.
Posted by: Monty at December 03, 2014 05:49 PM (YTxfG)
Posted by: Eric Garner's REALLY tighty whities at December 03, 2014 05:49 PM (0HooB)
Dana Perino has been reading Vic's headlines.
Posted by: Golfman in NC at December 03, 2014 05:36 PM (wVWRM)
How so?
Posted by: Vic at December 03, 2014 05:49 PM (u9gzs)
Posted by: Whatever you say at December 03, 2014 05:47 PM (eeEDq)
Not necessarily. If its prohibited by the NYPD then that may very well be evidence of use of excessive force.
Posted by: Insomniac at December 03, 2014 05:49 PM (mx5oN)
Posted by: Tamron Hall at December 03, 2014 05:49 PM (wAQA5)
Well then by all means let's put this guy in mortal jeopardy because he is an asshole.
I don't think anyone here will argue that he wasn't an asshole. But there are smarter, less dangerous ways of getting him into the criminal justice system.
Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at December 03, 2014 05:49 PM (Zu3d9)
Protests planned: 430, Grand Central; 7:00 Rockefeller Christmas Tree
Posted by: Meremortal at December 03, 2014 05:49 PM (1Y+hH)
THIS WASN'T ABOUT CIGARETTES.
This was about a fight that Garner was involved in. How he is involved is kind of unclear because he started shouting at cops and trying to get away when they tried to question him. And then he died.
Posted by: sunny-dee at December 03, 2014 05:49 PM (EBoCD)
You need to take a break, want a cigarette?
Posted by: MikeH at December 03, 2014 05:49 PM (4OZqu)
Hasn't failed me yet!!
Posted by: Sort-of-Mad Max at December 03, 2014 05:49 PM (DLu2s)
They don't change the law, they just make new, more-restrictive laws there.
Rabble.
As for the rest, you can't indict a cop for killing someone. Justified, unjustified, doesn't matter. They are above the law.
Posted by: Mark Andrew Edwards at December 03, 2014 05:50 PM (EtwGU)
Posted by: Y-not
As we can see, snow flakes are fragile. No wonder he didn't want to be touched.
Posted by: Dang at December 03, 2014 05:50 PM (MNq6o)
Posted by: Anachronda, stirring up trouble at December 03, 2014 05:50 PM (sGtp+)
Posted by: eleven at December 03, 2014 05:50 PM (MDgS8)
What difference does it make?!!?11!!?1!
Posted by: Al Sharpton at December 03, 2014 05:50 PM (wVWRM)
It actually lessens police brutality since it can be used to force compliance. Otherwise it's back to guns and batons and more violent methods.
Posted by: Costanza Defense at December 03, 2014 05:50 PM (ZPrif)
This was about a fight that Garner was involved in. How he is involved is kind of unclear because he started shouting at cops and trying to get away when they tried to question him. And then he died.
Posted by: sunny-dee at December 03, 2014 05:49 PM (EBoCD)
Well yeah it was about cigarettes in a way. He was an habitual breaker of that law and the store owners would complain about him and he had been picked up numerous times in the past of the same thing.
Posted by: Nevergiveup at December 03, 2014 05:50 PM (op9Rd)
The police will follow the use of force guidelines. The guidelines require them to escalate the level of force to make you comply. And the guidelines all end up at the same place, Lethal Force, and You Are DEAD.
Respect Mah Authoritah!
Posted by: Eric Cartman's Badge at December 03, 2014 05:50 PM (J7NUM)
Posted by: Insomniac at December 03, 2014 05:40 PM (mx5oN)
Seems like different definitions of homicide are being used.
Legally, there's homicide, manslaughter, and murder.
Homicide - someone was killed by another human
Manslaughter - unintentional criminal killing (drunk driver hitting another car)
Murder - intentional criminal killing
(workplace "incident" involving "Allah ackhbar")
Posted by: Chocolate Sprinkled CM at December 03, 2014 05:51 PM (0NdlF)
'Emma Saylor got a frantic call from her mother last January that her 26-year-old brother Ethan had been rushed to the hospital after a confrontation with Frederick County, Md., off-duty sheriff's officers at a movie theater showing of "Zero Dark Thirty."
Ethan, who had Down syndrome, enjoyed the film so much that he decided to go back to his seat for a second showing while his aide went to get the car to take them home. When he refused to buy another $12 ticket, off-duty police moonlighting as security guards allegedly tackled him in an attempt to eject him from his seat.
An hour later, the young man was dead from "asphyxiation by homicide," according to the medical examiner's report.
The case went to a grand jury, which declined to indict the three sheriff's officers involved in the Jan. 12 incident, according to the Washington Post."
Posted by: Lauren at December 03, 2014 05:51 PM (BPMYx)
Violation of departmental rules means jurists are supposed to look at the officer in question as not acting in good faith and no more worthy of deference than a private citizen.
Posted by: Sven S Blade a.k.a. El Assassin@sven10077 at December 03, 2014 05:51 PM (/4AZU)
Okay, then, what were "the injuries he incurred in the altercation" that later resulted in his death?
Were they a crushed larynx, perhaps??
Posted by: Soothsayer's Imaginary Home For Incorrigible Boys & Girls at December 03, 2014 05:51 PM (rTCJ6)
Posted by: Boss Moss at December 03, 2014 05:51 PM (ZeBBB)
Posted by: Mallamutt, RINO President of the Sheena Easton Fan Club at December 03, 2014 05:51 PM (OWjjx)
Posted by: Boss Moss at December 03, 2014 05:49 PM (ZeBBB)
I'd get a stripper to flash him
Posted by: MikeH at December 03, 2014 05:51 PM (4OZqu)
Posted by: sunny-dee at December 03, 2014 05:51 PM (EBoCD)
Posted by: GMB - Tyrant 2nd Class at December 03, 2014 05:51 PM (RQ2Z6)
Posted by: Burnt Toast at December 03, 2014 05:51 PM (NaeCR)
Posted by: Nevergiveup at December 03, 2014 05:51 PM (op9Rd)
Did he ever go to jail?
Posted by: Costanza Defense at December 03, 2014 05:51 PM (ZPrif)
Posted by: Golfman in NC at December 03, 2014 05:51 PM (wVWRM)
This was about a fight that Garner was involved in. How he is involved is kind of unclear because he started shouting at cops and trying to get away when they tried to question him. And then he died.
Posted by: sunny-dee at December 03, 2014 05:49 PM (EBoCD)
That was 150% a political decision not a scientific or medical one
Posted by: Nevergiveup at December 03, 2014 05:52 PM (op9Rd)
There are certain fundamental Laws of Physics which people don't get. Namely, if you walk into me you will fall down.
Also, if I decide to run at you, full speed for 30-50', there's not much that's going to stop me. Unless you have a gun.
Or you are Batman.
and you're not Batman.
Posted by: BumperStickerist at December 03, 2014 05:23 PM (4CVLy)
But with enough start up capital I could be Batman.
Posted by: Sheldon Cooper at December 03, 2014 05:52 PM (z/Ubi)
Posted by: Sort-of-Mad Max at December 03, 2014 05:52 PM (DLu2s)
The PR factor is there, but the fact is the technological and equipment curve largely superceded the need for "the force" CD....
Police nunchuks, tasers, asps all have compliance zones that can coerce physical motion with less lethal risk....
of course the moonbats are trying to outlaw them for precisely that reason.
Posted by: Sven S Blade a.k.a. El Assassin@sven10077 at December 03, 2014 05:52 PM (/4AZU)
Posted by: sunny-dee at December 03, 2014 05:51 PM (EBoCD)
Gotta a dollar?
Posted by: MikeH at December 03, 2014 05:52 PM (4OZqu)
Were they supposed to blow in his ear and rub his belly?
No ... once they got him down and cuffed, the dick in the "99" tee could have got the hell off of him.was supposed to get the fuck off of him. And they could have got him a damn paramedic.
But hey - it'll NEVER happen to any of you, or one of your smart-mouthed kids. And if it does ... you/they had it coming. When The Man says jump - you say How High.
Posted by: ScoggDog at December 03, 2014 05:53 PM (xWPj1)
There's 1800 different 'facts' being thrown around, many in direct conflict.
Kind of hard to be definitive when the truth is so well camoflaged, and I'm far beyond believing any 'facts' that the MSM gives me.
Posted by: --- at December 03, 2014 05:53 PM (MMC8r)
Now Ferguson's over so back to Garner.
Posted by: Costanza Defense at December 03, 2014 05:53 PM (ZPrif)
Did he ever go to jail?
Posted by: Costanza Defense at December 03, 2014 05:51 PM (ZPrif)
Yeah, the same one Fredo sends illegal immigrants to
Posted by: Nevergiveup at December 03, 2014 05:53 PM (op9Rd)
I hope you all will join me in calling for the immediate resignations from office of the following white politicians:
-- New York City Mayor Bill de Blasio
-- New York State Governor Mario Cuomo
-- Senior Senator from New York Charles Schumer
-- Junior Senator from New York Kirsten Gillibrand
Recompense for this horrible racist crime demands nothing less. Justice for Eric Garner!
Posted by: torquewrench at December 03, 2014 05:54 PM (noWW6)
The case went to a grand jury, which declined to indict the three sheriff's officers involved in the Jan. 12 incident, according to the Washington Post."
Posted by: Lauren at December 03, 2014 05:51 PM (BPMYx)
Exactly, over a $12 fucking movie ticket.
Posted by: Berserker-Dragonheads Division at December 03, 2014 05:54 PM (FMbng)
Posted by: The Jackhole at December 03, 2014 05:54 PM (6/J77)
Posted by: Al Sharpton at December 03, 2014 05:54 PM (sGtp+)
Carotid choke, not airway choke.
There are other ways to do it, so YMMV."
Honestly no. Look at 45 seconds and afterwards in the video linked below. For it to be a carotid choke Garner's chin should be in line with the elbow. But the policeman's elbow is way off to the side, and it is actually the blade of his forearm in compression that is choking. In fact, the line of his arm is nearly parallel to the line of Garner's shoulders. This will be putting nearly all of the pressure on the windpipe.
Definitely a shittily applied rex kwan do choke. Regardless of whether this is what killed him, police officers shouldn't be treating non-violent cigarette offenders in this way.
http://tinyurl.com/lzd6444
Posted by: Roadrunner at December 03, 2014 05:54 PM (nWv04)
Posted by: Boss Moss at December 03, 2014 05:55 PM (ZeBBB)
I don't think collecting waifus and related ... stuff ... should be classified as asexual.
Posted by: Chocolate Sprinkled CM at December 03, 2014 05:55 PM (0NdlF)
Posted by: wth at December 03, 2014 05:55 PM (wAQA5)
#DeleteMUMRpost. #GoAwayMUMR
Posted by: Mallamutt, RINO President of the Sheena Easton Fan Club at December 03, 2014 05:55 PM (OWjjx)
----
Except that isn't what happened.
Posted by: Jay in PA at December 03, 2014 05:55 PM (7T0u2)
Posted by: Roy at December 03, 2014 05:55 PM (tiOTz)
Posted by: sunny-dee at December 03, 2014 05:55 PM (EBoCD)
"Non- Violent" so you know his history? You know his arrest record?
Posted by: Nevergiveup at December 03, 2014 05:56 PM (op9Rd)
Its over as far as criminal prosecution...
The Civil Case is FAR from over...
Posted by: Wolf, Big Bad, 1 ea... at December 03, 2014 05:56 PM (f0pWu)
The magic Heart Attack Headlock was released seconds after he was brought to the ground.
He wasn't choked to death. It didn't happen.
Posted by: Costanza Defense at December 03, 2014 05:56 PM (ZPrif)
All I'm saying is that it isn't illegal which is what the msm has being screaming about since August!!!!
Posted by: Whatever you say at December 03, 2014 05:56 PM (eeEDq)
Posted by: sunny-dee at December 03, 2014 05:55 PM (EBoCD)
Where are you from?
Posted by: Nevergiveup at December 03, 2014 05:56 PM (op9Rd)
What he's doing ain't violent. It's stupid - but it ain't violent.
Posted by: ScoggDog at December 03, 2014 05:56 PM (xWPj1)
Posted by: The Jackhole at December 03, 2014 05:57 PM (6/J77)
WTF
Posted by: Jay in PA at December 03, 2014 05:57 PM (7T0u2)
Taser
Pepper
Asp strike to meaty part of body (of which there was plenty)
Keep talking
Had tactical advantage, had superior force. Most cops dream of having such ideal circumstances. And one guy tossed it all for expediency, and failed at even that.
Posted by: Monty at December 03, 2014 05:57 PM (YTxfG)
Posted by: Boss Moss at December 03, 2014 05:57 PM (ZeBBB)
Posted by: Mallamutt, RINO President of the Sheena Easton Fan Club at December 03, 2014 05:57 PM (OWjjx)
Posted by: ScoggDog at December 03, 2014 05:58 PM (xWPj1)
Send a bureaucrat armed with a clipboard instead. That's supposed to be their purview.
Posted by: 2549 at December 03, 2014 05:58 PM (Cir5C)
With the last two cases can we at least agree...
That Smoking IS Hazardous to your health???
At least if there is a cop around?
Posted by: Wolf, Big Bad, 1 ea... at December 03, 2014 05:58 PM (f0pWu)
"I did not know how many bouncers it was going to take." "But I knew how many they were going to use."
Same thing with cops, you will lose or you will die. If you are not willing to die, or kill the officer arresting you, you should comply when they pull out the cuffs.
Posted by: Eric Cartman's Badge at December 03, 2014 05:58 PM (J7NUM)
Posted by: Lauren at December 03, 2014 05:58 PM (BPMYx)
Yeah...you are correct. I didn't watch carefully enough.
And if you listen to him say "I can't breath," it sounds like there is something against his jaw, because he is slurring.
Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at December 03, 2014 05:58 PM (Zu3d9)
Agree to a certain point with Inspector Cussword, and certainly agree with you. This was excessive force. Officer should be disciplined.
I want to know where the media and Sharpton are.
Where are the riots?
Where are the "It's just cigarettes" signs?
Posted by: SGT York at December 03, 2014 05:58 PM (uwcUs)
---
Where does this silly talking point come from anyway?
Posted by: Jay in PA at December 03, 2014 05:59 PM (7T0u2)
What he's doing ain't violent. It's stupid - but it ain't violent.
Posted by: ScoggDog at December 03, 2014 05:56 PM (xWPj1)
Sorry. Cops get seriously injured in incidents like that all the time that spiral out of control. And I don't like Cops in general, but if you say more than "Yes Sir" or " I want to speak to an attorney" to a cop in a situation like that, you are asking for trouble
Posted by: Nevergiveup at December 03, 2014 05:59 PM (op9Rd)
What is NYC now the same as the old old Soviet Union and petty capitalists are to be thrown in a gulag or killed?
Posted by: Palerider at December 03, 2014 05:59 PM (dkExz)
Posted by: Warden at December 03, 2014 05:24 PM (wHAYQ)
____________
Threaten to force feed him a salad if he doesn't surrender?
Posted by: Mr. Moo Moo at December 03, 2014 05:59 PM (0LHZx)
The facts about the police called over for a fight are murky to me.
He was also a huge dude.
It's hard to force huge dudes to comply. That's why they took him down.
His heart disease and asthma plus the stress of the arrest and exertion caused his heart to fail
It's unfortunate. And the dumb tax laws should be repealed.
Posted by: Costanza Defense at December 03, 2014 05:59 PM (ZPrif)
The fact that the police were there for a fight isn't a political decision. They were there because someone reported a fight. As in, people were fighting, and someone called it into the cops. And Garner was involved. His family claim he was trying to break it up, and that he was not a combatant. It was in questioning him about the fight that he accused the cops of hassling him, began yelling, tried to resist, and got taken down.
None of that is political. It is either agreed to by everyone or is actually on tape.
Posted by: sunny-dee at December 03, 2014 05:59 PM (EBoCD)
Posted by: Mallamutt, RINO President of the Sheena Easton Fan Club at December 03, 2014 05:59 PM (OWjjx)
The Mayor and Governor don't take kindly to some off-the-books bartering with no tax consequence.
Posted by: redenzo at December 03, 2014 06:00 PM (WCnJW)
Watching a MUMR comment disappear.
Just find one, wait about 10 seconds, then refresh.
Poof!
Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at December 03, 2014 06:00 PM (Zu3d9)
Posted by: --- at December 03, 2014 06:00 PM (MMC8r)
Posted by: Costanza Defense at December 03, 2014 06:01 PM (ZPrif)
>>Rabble.
>>As for the rest, you can't indict a cop for killing someone. Justified, unjustified, doesn't matter. They are above the law.
Sure you can. In fact, one of the things that led to the banning of the choke hold in NYC was the death of a suspect from a choke hold that led to an indictment of indictment of 5, count 'em, 5 officers.
http://tinyurl.com/mjm7us6
But the bigger problem is the very people we put in place to monitor this ever growing regulatory state are cops. They are the ones who face the wrath of 6'5 400 lbs people who don't like the law either.
Don't like the law? Work to change it. But you don't get to decide you don't like a certain law or 4 and fight the cops. Well you do but it never ends well.
Posted by: JackStraw at December 03, 2014 06:01 PM (g1DWB)
Posted by: sunny-dee at December 03, 2014 05:59 PM (EBoCD)
Ever been to NYC? Ever hear of Al Sharpton? Know who the Mayor of NYC is and who his friends are? Not political? That's a hot one
Posted by: Nevergiveup at December 03, 2014 06:01 PM (op9Rd)
"there was compression of the neck, that was the cause of death"
Is not "your heart giving out"
Why is Ace lying like this?
Posted by: Jay in PA at December 03, 2014 06:01 PM (7T0u2)
1 went to the gym
2 didn't eat half a pig every day
3 obeyed the lawful orders of the popo
and they should have shot his dog
Posted by: navycopjoe can throw better than Jay Cutler at December 03, 2014 06:01 PM (KJCH+)
Posted by: Boss Moss at December 03, 2014 06:01 PM (ZeBBB)
Posted by: BackwardsBoy, Curmudgeon Extraordinaire at December 03, 2014 06:02 PM (0HooB)
And if a cop decides to turn one of your kid's jaws into mashed potatoes because they got smart lipped - they deserve it too. Cops get hurt in traffic stops all the time.
It's stupid, NGU. Just damned stupid. Cops are supposed to be the Adults. Not the Thugs with Uniforms. There is NOTHING implying this was spinning out of control. Dude ain't going anywhere. All they had to do was take one step back, and wait for the damned ARMY of additional cops to ring the guy - then take him down.
Posted by: ScoggDog at December 03, 2014 06:03 PM (xWPj1)
Posted by: GMB - Tyrant 2nd Class at December 03, 2014 06:03 PM (RQ2Z6)
However, if some random New York white person has to beaten to death with hammers, is it OK to wish it on Geraldo Rivera? I'm........asking for a friend.
Posted by: Sort-of-Mad Max at December 03, 2014 06:03 PM (DLu2s)
Answer: larger caliber. More humane.
Posted by: NYC Parent at December 03, 2014 06:03 PM (HEo6y)
and flashbanged a fully loaded baby
Posted by: Sven S Blade a.k.a. El Assassin@sven10077 at December 03, 2014 06:03 PM (/4AZU)
I'm betting Ace (or one of the journalists) just typed neck by mistake.
Posted by: sunny-dee at December 03, 2014 06:03 PM (EBoCD)
Posted by: TimmaY at December 03, 2014 06:04 PM (CB3/M)
Posted by: Soothsayer's Imaginary Home For Incorrigible Boys & Girls at December 03, 2014 06:04 PM (rTCJ6)
Posted by: Costanza Defense at December 03, 2014 06:04 PM (ZPrif)
Posted by: Boss Moss at December 03, 2014 06:04 PM (ZeBBB)
If a person has committed a violent crime and is violently resisting arrest, his ass is grass and the police can do whatever they want to him for all I care. The Rodney King story is a good example of this.
Garner merely sold cigarettes, then held his hands palm out in a non-menacing way. That's it. He didn't even need "taking down" in the first place, so your statement is a red herring.
Posted by: Roadrunner at December 03, 2014 06:04 PM (nWv04)
Lipitor or War!
Posted by: Bob Belcher at December 03, 2014 06:04 PM (014lE)
Posted by: Costanza Defense at December 03, 2014 06:05 PM (ZPrif)
Posted by: ScoggDog at December 03, 2014 06:03 PM (xWPj1)
There was nothing to imply that that the cop who got hit in the head with that AX in NYC the other day was spinning out of control till his head was split open either.
And MY KID would not be breaking the law like that then mouthing off to a cop. My kid would have broken down in tears
Posted by: Nevergiveup at December 03, 2014 06:05 PM (op9Rd)
Ace (and some goofy wresting fan boys) are all over Twitter saying this.
Loudly.
Posted by: Jay in PA at December 03, 2014 06:05 PM (7T0u2)
Don't like the law? Work to change it. But you don't get to decide you don't like a certain law or 4 and fight the cops. Well you do but it never ends well.
Posted by: JackStraw at December 03, 2014 06:01 PM (g1DWB)
Uh.... HOW???
The last two elections have shown me that the Electorate is powerless against Washington insiders.
We totally overthrew the balance of power in the House and Senate...
Yet Obamacare is still the law of the land, and our President is MAKING law, not enforcing law.
So.... just what in the hell is a citizen supposed to do... in a Democracy... when its shown that even the VOTE does not mean a F'n thing???
Like with Gay Marriage in California? Where it was voted NOT to have it... yet now we do?
Talking about working to change law in THIS country TODAY???
Only if you are at the head of a Big Business.... crony capitalism ya know...
Posted by: Wolf, Big Bad, 1 ea... at December 03, 2014 06:05 PM (f0pWu)
Whatever money the city spent on all that stuff was wasted. It would have been better spent on dash cams, body cams, and an airport style fire truck with the turret mounted water cannon.
The civilian police are never going to get permission to form a skirmish line and break up a crowd with the ARs. Nobody is going to want to go down as Police Commissioner "Dyer", but there is a pretty good chance you can use the industrial super soaker and clear the streets.
You don't have to be a Gentle Giant supporter to believe that the cops are being improperly equipped.
Posted by: the guy that moves pianos for a living... at December 03, 2014 06:05 PM (M6Vhk)
Posted by: Kenway at December 03, 2014 06:06 PM (yRj9r)
You can argue that's not right all day long, but that's how it is. Fight against that, and you will have the crap beaten out of you or you will be shot.
Posted by: sunny-dee at December 03, 2014 06:06 PM (EBoCD)
Taser
Pepper
Asp strike to meaty part of body (of which there was plenty)
Keep talking
Apply the Pear of Anguish?
Posted by: Burnt Toast at December 03, 2014 06:06 PM (NaeCR)
It's a way to try to hide the truth by fixating on a detail that is completely immaterial.
The question is not "Did the police officer choke the man to death?"
it is
"Did the police officer's actions (including the "choke hold") cause the man's death?"
If I strangle my asthmatic son, Homer Simpson style, but take my hands away before he passes out, am I responsible for his death if he had an asthma attack triggered by my actions 20 seconds later?
I'd say 100% of humans would say "yes, you monster you deserve the death penalty for killing your son"
I doubt my defense of "well, but I didn't choke him to death!" would really carry much weight.
Posted by: Lauren at December 03, 2014 06:06 PM (BPMYx)
Got it. Chalk up another to "It'll never happen to me."
Keeping up on current events much, NGU ?
Posted by: ScoggDog at December 03, 2014 06:06 PM (xWPj1)
He was told to get down and refused.
Posted by: Bob Belcher at December 03, 2014 06:06 PM (014lE)
and not just me saying.....try some experts...the Gracies
http://tinyurl.com/lyux3or
Posted by: navycopjoe can throw better than Jay Cutler at December 03, 2014 06:06 PM (KJCH+)
His last words were, "I'm sick of this. It stops today."
Just sayin'.
Posted by: sunny-dee at December 03, 2014 06:07 PM (EBoCD)
394 So what good did the Ferguson PD's body armor and fatigues and ARs and MRAPs do?
I guess there'll be some nice gear to loot in the burning times?
Posted by: Chocolate Sprinkled CM at December 03, 2014 06:07 PM (0NdlF)
I hope I get credit for this revolutionary idea in kinder, gentler police work.
Posted by: Sort-of-Mad Max at December 03, 2014 06:08 PM (DLu2s)
Keeping up on current events much, NGU ?
Posted by: ScoggDog at December 03, 2014 06:06 PM (xWPj1)
Every fuckin day and when they decide to make a cause out of a kid that does not have a rap sheet longer the Wilt Chamberlin's arm get back to me.
Posted by: Nevergiveup at December 03, 2014 06:08 PM (op9Rd)
Posted by: Mark Furman Who Is A FNC Expert at December 03, 2014 06:08 PM (XzRw1)
And if you listen to him say "I can't breath," it sounds like there is something against his jaw, because he is slurring."
But isn't this the scary thing? People who are this incompetent at grappling will be the ones clumsily groping and choking your ass in the future. They need more serious training. A choke like that should never need to be used when the suspect is not violently resisting arrest.
Posted by: Roadrunner at December 03, 2014 06:08 PM (nWv04)
Posted by: Soothsayer's Imaginary Home For Incorrigible Boys & Girls at December 03, 2014 06:08 PM (rTCJ6)
The Grand Jury who saw all of the evidence disagrees with you.
Posted by: Bob Belcher at December 03, 2014 06:08 PM (014lE)
They made it back in the summer when this happened. Very calm, reasoned analysis by people who are actually experts in choke-holds.
Dana Loesch @DLoesch 1h
Check the Gracie breakdown. Interesting. About 9:00 in. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nql1xRtWKOU h/t @DeaconSchroeder
Posted by: Costanza Defense at December 03, 2014 06:08 PM (ZPrif)
Posted by: BackwardsBoy, Curmudgeon Extraordinaire at December 03, 2014 06:08 PM (0HooB)
I'm reading that in various places.
That could have possibly been a significant contributing factor to his death, and there is no way the police officer could have known that in advance.
Posted by: Your Friendly Danube River Guide at December 03, 2014 06:08 PM (RJMhd)
Posted by: Jay in PA at December 03, 2014 06:09 PM (7T0u2)
I say this in total respect and support for the police and what they try to do in very difficult circumstances ALL OF THE TIME...there should have been some type of punishment for the officer. I guess there is/was as far as his job goes. But I do not think he should have been indicted for murder. I do not believe this was anything more than an accidental manslaughter or whatever type of term for it. This was a very big man resisting arrest for two much smaller policemen.
What I saw at a Staten Island city council meeting tonight disturbed me, while the woman called for peace, she also stated that any unarmed person should not be killed by a policeman (or similar thought, not her exact words). That would be a very dangerous precedent for our police. I have seen unarmed and dangerous patients in an emergency dept, psychotic or on drugs, take four huge men to put into restraints. They don't want tasers. They don't want physical restraint that may go badly.They don't want any type of restraint by the policemen who are paid to protect us. So...what the hell are they supposed to do? Give those resisting a beer summit?
As this administration has hamstrung the military with their ROE, endangering their lives in the process and allowing ISIS to grow, they are doing the same here. Gangs will rejoice.
Every case is different. I do wish no one had died in any of the cases, but this is going to open a can of worms that resisting arrest is your right or something. More taunting of the police. This is bs.
And, from this administration and DOJ, ::crickets:: on the violent hammer death of the Bosnian man in St. Louis...because of his skin color and the skin color of the thug gang who killed him. Reverse racism.
And, his legacy, racism not seen in 40 yrs is on this WH.
Posted by: ChristyBlinky has no energy to riot at December 03, 2014 06:09 PM (dMEBN)
Posted by: Mallamutt, RINO President of the Sheena Easton Fan Club at December 03, 2014 06:09 PM (OWjjx)
Taser
Pepper
Asp strike to meaty part of body (of which there was plenty)
Keep talking
Apply the Pear of Anguish?
Posted by: Burnt Toast at December 03, 2014 06:06 PM (NaeCR)
Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch?
Posted by: MikeH at December 03, 2014 06:09 PM (4OZqu)
and your mom is a whore, she's not very pretty
see how this goes?
Posted by: navycopjoe can throw better than Jay Cutler at December 03, 2014 06:09 PM (KJCH+)
Posted by: major major major major at December 03, 2014 06:09 PM (Izmwi)
that does not have a rap sheet longer the Wilt Chamberlin's arm get back
to me.
Garner had it coming ... got it NGU. Got it. You should REALLY try to not make my earlier point.
Posted by: ScoggDog at December 03, 2014 06:09 PM (xWPj1)
That is really different than attempting to restrain a grown man, with multiple criminal arrests, who is resisting arrest and whose medical history you do not know.
Posted by: sunny-dee at December 03, 2014 06:09 PM (EBoCD)
Okay, so...
i) it wasn't a choke hold
ii) even if it was a choke hold, it had nothing whatsoever to do with his subsequent death
iii) this is what you get when you resist arrest
Posted by: Soothsayer's Imaginary Home For Incorrigible Boys & Girls at December 03, 2014 06:10 PM (rTCJ6)
It's silly to think that gear is for black rioters.
Posted by: Thin veneer of civility at December 03, 2014 06:10 PM (XzRw1)
Posted by: Jay in PA at December 03, 2014 06:10 PM (7T0u2)
112 Question: How does everyone propose "safely" and "cleanly" taking down a 400lb man?
Posted by: Warden
.....................................
From now on all police must be wearing Inflatable Sumo Wrestler Fat Suits to make the arrest gentler, safer, and more fun!
Posted by: wth at December 03, 2014 06:10 PM (wAQA5)
Posted by: sunny-dee at December 03, 2014 06:10 PM (EBoCD)
We haven't seen or heard what the GJ saw and heard. At least AFAIK, nothing has been released from the hearing(s). Therefore, any conclusion drawn at this point is based on anecdotes, suppositions and news reports. Some people love cops, some hate them; they are projecting their prejudices on the situation.
In a word, it's bogus. Right now, all smoke and an inconclusive "video" on which everyone projects their own wishes and beliefs. Everyone should step back and wait for evidence. That's goes for Noah Rothman and Tepid Air, too. Especially for them.
Posted by: MrScribbler at December 03, 2014 06:10 PM (yAC3X)
Which brings me to a theory: The leftists and race-baiters in this country will only pick losing cases to highlight, cases in which the black man clearly broke the law and the white person's actions were justified, precisely BECAUSE they can point to the inevitable outcome as racist and symptomatic of an unfair system. How anti-climactic would it have been if, in each of these famous cases, the whites were deemed to have broken the law and gone to jail? It would completely invalidate the claim that American is the Home of the Racist.
No. You can bet that each and every one of these will be a bold-faced lie and the only victim will be the truth and the poor souls that successfully defended themselves.
Posted by: Robert at December 03, 2014 06:10 PM (VKec4)
It's silly to think that gear is for black rioters.
Posted by: Thin veneer of civility at December 03, 2014 06:10 PM (XzRw1)
No, it's for an armed populace
Posted by: MikeH at December 03, 2014 06:11 PM (4OZqu)
Posted by: Nigel West Dickens at December 03, 2014 06:11 PM (SQkRc)
Posted by: navycopjoe can throw better than Jay Cutler at December 03, 2014 06:11 PM (KJCH+)
How about if the forensic evidence and MMA guys concur?
Posted by: Bob Belcher at December 03, 2014 06:11 PM (014lE)
Posted by: Boss Moss at December 03, 2014 06:11 PM (ZeBBB)
@417, sweet. Tell me another profession where they will not accept you if your IQ is too high.
Posted by: sunny-dee
News anchor?
Posted by: pep at December 03, 2014 06:11 PM (4nR9/)
Posted by: ScoggDog at December 03, 2014 06:09 PM (xWPj1)
I never said that, but he shares tremendous responsibility for his own death by his own actions.
Posted by: Nevergiveup at December 03, 2014 06:11 PM (op9Rd)
--
The morbid obesity didn't exactly help.
Posted by: Costanza Defense at December 03, 2014 06:12 PM (ZPrif)
Except for the fact that you know that the method by which you are subduing him as been known to cause death. It's not like this is some new situation, never thought of before. We already decided this issue and decided that choke holds aren't appropriate because of their danger.
Posted by: Lauren at December 03, 2014 06:12 PM (BPMYx)
http://tinyurl.com/lnokwqk
These 3 guys all "bought their ticket". Don't remember where that came from last week.
Posted by: DaveA at December 03, 2014 06:12 PM (DL2i+)
i) it wasn't a choke hold
ii) even if it was a choke hold, it had nothing whatsoever to do with his subsequent death
iii) this is what you get when you resist arrest
Yep, that is their line.
Keep in mind Ace is on record saying all of this.
Posted by: Jay in PA at December 03, 2014 06:12 PM (7T0u2)
++++++++++
With all due respect, straw man.
Posted by: eureka! at December 03, 2014 06:13 PM (loPn3)
I never said that, but he shares tremendous responsibility for his own death by his own actions.
Which is the case in most of these
Posted by: helloit's me Donna and I know nuthink! at December 03, 2014 06:13 PM (Bn6aD)
Posted by: Lincolntf at December 03, 2014 06:13 PM (2cS/G)
Posted by: Monty at December 03, 2014 06:13 PM (YTxfG)
Posted by: Bob Belcher at December 03, 2014 06:08 PM (014lE)
The Grand Jury only sees the Evidence that the Attorney in charge of it wants them to see.
There is no adversary... there is no cross examination, and often evidence is submitted that would not make it into a trial... as there is no one there to object.
They are also done in Secret, unless the Attorney in charge decides (like Ferguson) to release evidence.
IMO we would have been better served if this had gone to Trial... to let the System complete its work... in the adversarial system of Justice we have.
Posted by: Wolf, Big Bad, 1 ea... at December 03, 2014 06:13 PM (f0pWu)
It's a way to try to hide the truth by fixating on a detail that is completely immaterial.
The question is not "Did the police officer choke the man to death?"
it is
"Did the police officer's actions (including the "choke hold") cause the man's death?"
If I strangle my asthmatic son, Homer Simpson style, but take my hands away before he passes out, am I responsible for his death if he had an asthma attack triggered by my actions 20 seconds later?
I'd say 100% of humans would say "yes, you monster you deserve the death penalty for killing your son"
I doubt my defense of "well, but I didn't choke him to death!" would really carry much weight.
Posted by: Lauren at December 03, 2014 06:06 PM (BPMYx)
That just sounds like a really bad comparison effort with little connection. The cop isn't the guys parent. He doesn't have knowledge of his medical records. He has no indication that attempting to subdue him will trigger a heart attack.
Posted by: Buzzion at December 03, 2014 06:13 PM (z/Ubi)
They don't in this case:
"there was compression of the neck, that was the cause of death"
Posted by: Jay in PA at December 03, 2014 06:14 PM (7T0u2)
Posted by: Costanza Defense at December 03, 2014 06:14 PM (ZPrif)
397 What were they supposed to do?
Apply the Pear of Anguish?
Heh
Posted by: Monty
I'd go for the comfy chair, but that's me.
Posted by: pep at December 03, 2014 06:14 PM (4nR9/)
i) it wasn't a choke hold
ii) even if it was a choke hold, it had nothing whatsoever to do with his subsequent death
iii) this is what you get when you resist arrest
Yep, that is their line.
Keep in mind Ace is on record saying all of this.
Posted by: Jay in PA at December 03, 2014 06:12 PM (7T0u2)
So what's next? Send Ace to the re-education camp?
Posted by: MikeH at December 03, 2014 06:14 PM (4OZqu)
Posted by: Mallamutt, RINO President of the Sheena Easton Fan Club at December 03, 2014 06:14 PM (OWjjx)
That isn't to say any other form of subduing the suspect wouldn't have resulted in a heart attack. Dude was a cardiac time bomb.
Still...was strangling the dude really necessary?
Posted by: mrshad at December 03, 2014 06:15 PM (C5V36)
against that, and you will have the crap beaten out of you or you will
be shot.
Sunny-Dee ... People here ARE saying it was right - because Garner had it coming, and you don't Mess with the Man.
You people will, sooner or later, get the pleasure of a Civilian Police Force every bit as strong as the military ... at least if King Putt has his way. If that day comes - better mind your damned Ps and Qs. Hell - don't even bitch about it.
After all, you'll be paying that force to do what they do. And they'll only be doing their job.
Posted by: ScoggDog at December 03, 2014 06:15 PM (xWPj1)
I've never been so embarrassed for the right as I am today after reading Ace's thoughts on this.
Posted by: Jay in PA at December 03, 2014 06:15 PM (7T0u2)
Posted by: GMB - Tyrant 2nd Class at December 03, 2014 06:15 PM (RQ2Z6)
Posted by: GMB - Tyrant 2nd Class at December 03, 2014 05:51 PM (RQ2Z6)
Dumbasses will probably try to gang rape the Statue of Liberty.
Posted by: Havedash at December 03, 2014 06:15 PM (G1XMn)
Posted by: sunny-dee at December 03, 2014 06:15 PM (EBoCD)
Please, lets not conflate a guy with 31 prior arrests, 4 convictions, out on bail, committing a crime in broad daylight under a security camera and resisting arrest with winning an election a couple weeks ago and the new Congress hasn't even been seated yet.
You know what I mean. You don't get to just decide, fuck it, this is the day I don't let the cops arrest me for a law I am breaking because I don't like it.
Posted by: JackStraw at December 03, 2014 06:15 PM (g1DWB)
Posted by: Costanza Defense at December 03, 2014 06:16 PM (ZPrif)
and not just me saying.....try some experts...the Gracies
http://tinyurl.com/lyux3or"
It WAS a choke. Have someone wrap the blade of their forearm tightly around your neck from behind and tell us "it's not a choke".
What the Gracies are disputing was whether he was literally choked to death. He wasn't. The ME though ruled the choke and other actions contributed to his death, enough to rule it a homicide.
Posted by: Roadrunner at December 03, 2014 06:16 PM (nWv04)
He knows that choke holds are banned because they have caused people to die. I'd further say he can probably tell the man's not in the best physical shape and can probably use all the oxygen he can get, but honestly that's not even needed. He knew that what he was doing could be deadly. He did it anyway.
Posted by: Lauren at December 03, 2014 06:16 PM (BPMYx)
I think officer Wilson did what he had to do, I also believe he had no choice .
I believe a ticket would have sufficed in this case and that a cop shouldn't need or try to restrain someone for simple and small violations like selling single cigarettes ! Once this man had a dozen or so tickets, sure!
I think stupid laws that get people killed for the tax revenue of a single cigarette are stupid and should be repealed,relaxed or at least removed to a level more along the lines of a meter maid!
Policeman, is not an easy job, you may have to risk your life every day, that doesn't mean you need to wrestle a man to the ground over 3 cents worth of Tax revenue!
Just my opinion!
Posted by: WWhiskey at December 03, 2014 06:16 PM (3Ve0Z)
--
Your concern is noted.
Posted by: Costanza Defense at December 03, 2014 06:16 PM (ZPrif)
Taser
Pepper"
Both of which carry their own risks to the apprehendee.
People can and do die from being Tasered.
Pepper spray is going to do a potentially dangerous number on someone with severe asthma.
Also with regard to Tasering, we famously had one of these goddamned white cop/black suspect misadventures out here in the SF Bay Area, where a white cop went to Tase an actively resisting black suspect, and accidentally drew and fired his sidearm instead of the Taser, killing the suspect.
THAT turned into quite the vicar's gracious garden party, as you can imagine.
Posted by: torquewrench at December 03, 2014 06:16 PM (noWW6)
Posted by: Jay in PA at December 03, 2014 06:15 PM (7T0u2)
Ok, have Mom give you a bag of Cheetos and maybe some Sunny Dee. Go back to the basement and play Destiny
Posted by: MikeH at December 03, 2014 06:16 PM (4OZqu)
It would have been nice if he put the Internet down for a while instead of beclowing himself.
But that will have to do, for now I guess.
Posted by: Jay in PA at December 03, 2014 06:17 PM (7T0u2)
Or is it media and opinion all the way down?
Posted by: Your Friendly Danube River Guide at December 03, 2014 06:17 PM (RJMhd)
Every law on the books has the phrase "or we'll kill you" implied.
Posted by: mikesixes at December 03, 2014 06:17 PM (7642N)
Everybody cool with being taken down in the manner of Eric Garner, please form a line ...
Posted by: ScoggDog at December 03, 2014 06:17 PM (xWPj1)
Posted by: dr kill at December 03, 2014 06:17 PM (jRgO6)
Posted by: thirteen28 at December 03, 2014 06:17 PM (Dm9G5)
Posted by: Mallamutt, RINO President of the Sheena Easton Fan Club at December 03, 2014 06:18 PM (OWjjx)
It would have been nice if he put the Internet down for a while instead of beclowing himself.
But that will have to do, for now I guess.
Posted by: Jay in PA at December 03, 2014 06:17 PM (7T0u2)
***********
Where are you getting your information?
Hopefully you are not trusting media interpretive dance?
Posted by: Your Friendly Danube River Guide at December 03, 2014 06:18 PM (RJMhd)
The tax man is happy.
Posted by: GMB - Tyrant 2nd Class at December 03, 2014 06:18 PM (RQ2Z6)
Posted by: Sort-of-Mad Max at December 03, 2014 06:18 PM (DLu2s)
Because when the NYPD banned chokeholds in 1993, they were totally using MMA rules!
Posted by: Jay in PA at December 03, 2014 06:18 PM (7T0u2)
Posted by: Costanza Defense at December 03, 2014 06:18 PM (ZPrif)
Posted by: JackStraw at December 03, 2014 06:15 PM (g1DWB)
And yet.... that is EXACTLY how this country came into existence...
Bunker Hill?
Posted by: Wolf, Big Bad, 1 ea... at December 03, 2014 06:18 PM (f0pWu)
But seriously, is selling loosies a misdemeanor or more like an infraction? Could the cop just write the man a citation?
Posted by: Grampa Jimbo at December 03, 2014 06:18 PM (V70Uh)
if they go to arrest you, you can either go quietly, and let your lawyer do their thing, or you can resist arrest.
if you resist arrest bad things can happen to you, up to and including death.
so make your decisions wisely... because if you play stupid games, you can win stupid prizes.
wanna bet that, if this paragon of society voted at all, he voted for the idiots who passed the stupid law he was breaking?
Posted by: redc1c4 at December 03, 2014 06:18 PM (7vjeC)
Just to be clear, I don't give a damn about this Garner man. I don't like the idea that resisting arrest for something trivial gives the police license to kill me.
Or even just grind their knees into my face, or whatever.
Posted by: Soothsayer's Imaginary Home For Incorrigible Boys & Girls at December 03, 2014 06:19 PM (rTCJ6)
Posted by: Boss Moss at December 03, 2014 06:19 PM (ZeBBB)
Posted by: Havedash at December 03, 2014 06:19 PM (G1XMn)
Posted by: Kenway at December 03, 2014 06:19 PM (yRj9r)
Um, not from guys on youtube?
You realize the ME did an autopsy and issued a cause of death, right?
Posted by: Jay in PA at December 03, 2014 06:19 PM (7T0u2)
Posted by: helloit's me Donna and I know nuthink! at December 03, 2014 06:20 PM (Bn6aD)
"I only strangled him for a second! How was I supposed to know he had asthma?!"
Yeah, hello lethal injection.
Posted by: Lauren at December 03, 2014 06:20 PM (BPMYx)
Posted by: Boss Moss at December 03, 2014 06:20 PM (ZeBBB)
and your mom is a whore, she's not very pretty
see how this goes?
Posted by: navycopjoe can throw better than Jay Cutler at December 03, 2014 06:09 PM (KJCH+)
Except there's evidence supporting 396's statement.
Posted by: Insomniac at December 03, 2014 06:20 PM (mx5oN)
>>But that will have to do, for now I guess.
Right. Because some of us are agreeing with the decision of a Grand Jury in that great conservative, law and order state of NY.
If you're embarrassed you know what to do.
Posted by: JackStraw at December 03, 2014 06:20 PM (g1DWB)
Bunker Hill?
Posted by: Wolf, Big Bad, 1 ea... at December 03, 2014 06:18 PM (f0pWu)
I thought the British were trying to seize the guns and ammo of the Colonials?
Posted by: MikeH at December 03, 2014 06:20 PM (4OZqu)
Posted by: gm at December 03, 2014 06:20 PM (/kBoL)
Yeah this times a million. Since when did mindless obedience to government authority become Teh cool thing amongst the Right? Asshole founding fathers should have been choked for disobeying authority. The law is the law after all, even when the laws are bad.
Posted by: Roadrunner at December 03, 2014 06:20 PM (nWv04)
Everyone should step back and wait for evidence.
Posted by: MrScribbler at December 03, 2014 06:10 PM (yAC3X)
SHUT IT!! YOU SHUT YOUR DIRTY MOUTH!!!
Posted by: antisocial justice beatnik at December 03, 2014 06:20 PM (bHnlE)
Posted by: Ghost of Reynaldo Cuevas at December 03, 2014 06:21 PM (XzRw1)
Posted by: Nigel West Dickens at December 03, 2014 06:21 PM (SQkRc)
Posted by: Truck Monkey, as Voiced by Brian Dennehy at December 03, 2014 06:21 PM (jucos)
Posted by: Lincolntf at December 03, 2014 06:21 PM (2cS/G)
All I can say is, I hope it happens to you next.
Posted by: chicken choker at December 03, 2014 06:21 PM (nlQae)
Posted by: Boss Moss at December 03, 2014 06:21 PM (ZeBBB)
Uh, that wasn't what I was responding to at all.
It was pretty clear.
Way to knock down that strawman though
Posted by: Jay in PA at December 03, 2014 06:21 PM (7T0u2)
Just to be clear, I don't give a damn about this Garner man. I don't like the idea that resisting arrest for something trivial gives the police license to kill me.
Or even just grind their knees into my face, or whatever.
Posted by: Soothsayer's Imaginary Home For Incorrigible Boys & Girls at December 03, 2014 06:19 PM (rTCJ6)
Whatever it takes for them to be able to go home at night...
Posted by: Insomniac at December 03, 2014 06:21 PM (mx5oN)
Yep. Just thank goodness we're not all trying to force each other to the ground and giving each other choke holds. ;^)
Posted by: FenelonSpoke at December 03, 2014 06:21 PM (FS3xS)
Looked like a good tackle that degenerated into a choke as he continued to struggle.
Posted by: DaveA at December 03, 2014 06:21 PM (DL2i+)
Bunker Hill?"
and, last time i looked, people died at Bunker Hill...
did you have another point you were trying to make?
Posted by: redc1c4 at December 03, 2014 06:22 PM (7vjeC)
And seriously, people -- this wasn't about cigarettes. It was about a fight. Meaning, an assault.
Posted by: sunny-dee at December 03, 2014 06:22 PM (EBoCD)
And yet.... that is EXACTLY how this country came into existence...
Bunker Hill?
Posted by: Wolf, Big Bad, 1 ea... at December 03, 2014 06:18 PM (f0pWu
Yeah, I see where you're coming from.
The proximate cause in both events was similar. In one case, you have someone selling cigs illegally, and in the other you have a monarch violating his own laws to oppress a colony composed of his countrymen.
Yup, they're exactly alike. Exactly.
Good point.
Posted by: Sean Bannion at December 03, 2014 06:22 PM (V+kmg)
Dear rdbrewer, thank you again for the wonderful landscapes you post every day. They serve to gently remind me of the proper priorities in life.
Posted by: dr kill
This place is a madhouse!
Posted by: Soothsayer's Imaginary Home For Incorrigible Boys & Girls at December 03, 2014 06:22 PM (rTCJ6)
The NY Slime declined to publish my comment.
I am shocked!
Posted by: Nip Sip at December 03, 2014 06:22 PM (0FSuD)
Uh, you want there to be a right to resist arrest?
Posted by: Chocolate Sprinkled CM at December 03, 2014 06:22 PM (0NdlF)
But they can still throw chairs at suspects. That part stayed in.
Posted by: BackwardsBoy, Curmudgeon Extraordinaire at December 03, 2014 06:22 PM (0HooB)
You're getting the wrong facts!!!
Posted by: Jay in PA at December 03, 2014 06:23 PM (7T0u2)
Blog commenter?
Posted by: --- at December 03, 2014 06:23 PM (MMC8r)
Posted by: Lincolntf at December 03, 2014 06:21 PM (2cS/G)
Only someone from Massachusetts would get that.
^5
Posted by: Sean Bannion at December 03, 2014 06:23 PM (V+kmg)
Posted by: Berserker-Dragonheads Division at December 03, 2014 06:23 PM (FMbng)
"I only strangled him for a second! How was I supposed to know he had asthma?!"
Yeah, hello lethal injection.
Posted by: Lauren at December 03, 2014 06:20 PM (BPMYx)
**********
Your analogy is fraught with all kinds of problems.
Is your toddler over 6 feet and 300 pounds--and resisting arrest?
And earlier your example included that you had knowledge of your son's asthma.
A cop...is not as familiar with a total stranger's health.
Posted by: Your Friendly Danube River Guide at December 03, 2014 06:23 PM (RJMhd)
But they can still throw chairs at suspects. That part stayed in.
Posted by: BackwardsBoy, Curmudgeon Extraordinaire at December 03, 2014 06:22 PM (0HooB)
and of course the seldom used jackhammer
Posted by: MikeH at December 03, 2014 06:24 PM (4OZqu)
My serious answer: we have a large number of disgusting black ghettos with violent, vicious criminals, who require that police deal with them in equally violent ways. That's OK. Police need to use excessive force when dealing with legit violent and dangerous criminals.
Unfortunately Leftists and black leaders agitate that all such examples are "police brutality", and we've gotten reflexively used to siding with the police and authority in general. Ferguson is a good example of this: Brown was an idiot who probably deserved what happened.
But this doesn't mean there aren't truly legit cases of police brutality, and it doesn't mean there's not a disturbing trend of violent criminalization of nonviolent crimes. It can be hard to distinguish the two cases though.
Posted by: Roadrunner at December 03, 2014 06:24 PM (nWv04)
How YOU doin'? ')
My husband is 6'5 and right at 3 bills if not slightly over. I promise you, one man ain't gonna take him down without going above and beyond, especially if he is pissed off.
I never take sides til I hear all the evidence. My over arching thought in light of recent tragedies is that black men seem to have trouble complying with the fucking cops.
Am I correct in understanding that this case is already over? Or is the GJ talk referring to Ferguson?
Honestly, I am fresh out of care to give.
Posted by: Tammy al-Thor at December 03, 2014 06:24 PM (6P3Qb)
Posted by: Boss Moss at December 03, 2014 06:24 PM (ZeBBB)
Whatever it takes for them to be able to go home at night...
Their job is to enforce the law and protect the citizenry, not go home at night.
Posted by: Soothsayer's Imaginary Home For Incorrigible Boys & Girls at December 03, 2014 06:24 PM (rTCJ6)
Blind obedience to authority has ALWAYS been a cool thing amongst a group of Republicans on this board - as long as either;
1) They are current / former members of said authority, or relatives of same.
2) They approve of the current actions of said Authority.
The notion that said Authority could turn on them is totally fucking lost on most of this crowd. But they'll mock the Left all day for the same blindness.
Posted by: ScoggDog at December 03, 2014 06:24 PM (xWPj1)
How stupid was it for the cops to treat this guy like a crack dealer.
As a retired psych RN with many years in the ER trenches only a fool continues to apply force when common sense tells you to back off.
Posted by: penny at December 03, 2014 06:25 PM (8yqwy)
Posted by: guy who doesn't really pay attention at December 03, 2014 06:25 PM (wAQA5)
Bunker Hill?
Posted by: Wolf, Big Bad, 1 ea... at December 03, 2014 06:18 PM (f0pWu)
I thought the British were trying to seize the guns and ammo of the Colonials?
Posted by: MikeH at December 03, 2014 06:20 PM (4OZqu)
Because the Colonials did not turn their guns and ammo in.... like British Law told them they must...
And don't even get me started on the Sons of Liberty and their little Tea Party...
My point is... that while this guy is a thug... there is a long tradition in this country of not following unjust laws...
So being LECTURED by some that we must follow all laws... even when the Government no longer Governs with the consent of the People... Well... lets just say it trips my trigger...
Posted by: Wolf, Big Bad, 1 ea... at December 03, 2014 06:25 PM (f0pWu)
Posted by: Somebody from Monty Python in a Bobbie's Helmet at December 03, 2014 06:25 PM (DLu2s)
Posted by: Berserker-Dragonheads Division at December 03, 2014 06:23 PM (FMbng)
I think the term coppers came from the late 1800s NYC based on the badges worn
Posted by: MikeH at December 03, 2014 06:25 PM (4OZqu)
Posted by: GMB - Tyrant 2nd Class at December 03, 2014 06:25 PM (RQ2Z6)
It is another to:
1. Lie about Garner's cause of death
2. Bizarrely claim it wasn't an actual choke
3. Then compare it to a wrestling match
4. Then say, hey don't resist arrest either!
All of which Ace and some others on the right have done.
Posted by: Jay in PA at December 03, 2014 06:25 PM (7T0u2)
All I can say is, I hope it happens to you next.
Posted by: chicken choker at December 03, 2014 06:21 PM (nlQae)
************
What is your source for these facts?
Is it first source material?
How about giving us some links?
Posted by: Your Friendly Danube River Guide at December 03, 2014 06:25 PM (RJMhd)
Whatever it takes for them to be able to go home at night...
Their job is to enforce the law and protect the citizenry, not go home at night.
Posted by: Soothsayer's Imaginary Home For Incorrigible Boys & Girls at December 03, 2014 06:24 PM (rTCJ6)
I was being sarcastic. I think that particular statement is utter bullshit.
Posted by: Insomniac at December 03, 2014 06:25 PM (mx5oN)
Posted by: Nip Sip at December 03, 2014 06:25 PM (0FSuD)
Posted by: Insomniac at December 03, 2014 06:20 PM (mx5oN)>>>
Cops have discretion in giving tickets and making arrests, especially for minor infractions. For example, they don't generally give tickets for jaywalking or speeding by 1-5 mph or any number of archaic laws that we don't even know about. Arresting someone for selling a loosey is an abuse of discretion.
Posted by: gm at December 03, 2014 06:26 PM (/kBoL)
Taser
Pepper"
Both of which carry their own risks to the apprehendee.
People can and do die from being Tasered.
Pepper spray is going to do a potentially dangerous number on someone with severe asthma.
Also with regard to Tasering, we famously had one of these goddamned white cop/black suspect misadventures out here in the SF Bay Area, where a white cop went to Tase an actively resisting black suspect, and accidentally drew and fired his sidearm instead of the Taser, killing the suspect.
THAT turned into quite the vicar's gracious garden party, as you can imagine.
Didn't say they were 100% effective, didn't say the result wouldn't have been the same.
Just offering approved methods that look a whole lot better on video and are far more defensible by policy.
Posted by: Monty at December 03, 2014 06:26 PM (YTxfG)
Whatever it takes for them to be able to go home at night...
Their job is to enforce the law and protect the citizenry, not go home at night.
Posted by: Soothsayer's Imaginary Home For Incorrigible Boys & Girls at December 03, 2014 06:24 PM (rTCJ6)
I put them in the same category as Military.... it aint just a job...
Would you say its the Militaries job to 'do whatever it takes to go home at night'?
Posted by: Wolf, Big Bad, 1 ea... at December 03, 2014 06:26 PM (f0pWu)
Posted by: gracepmc at December 03, 2014 06:26 PM (xvd51)
Posted by: Lincolntf at December 03, 2014 06:26 PM (2cS/G)
Posted by: Kenway at December 03, 2014 06:27 PM (yRj9r)
And their uniforms also have to be just as colorful.
Posted by: Mallamutt, RINO President of the Sheena Easton Fan Club at December 03, 2014 06:27 PM (OWjjx)
Posted by: Ghosts of Two Times Square Innocent Bystanders at December 03, 2014 06:27 PM (XzRw1)
I guess I'm not as familiar as I thought about this case but didn't he have an arrest record?
Posted by: helloit's me Donna and I know nuthink! at December 03, 2014 06:27 PM (Bn6aD)
So, where does the OK killing start?
Specifically.
Posted by: Meremortal at December 03, 2014 06:27 PM (1Y+hH)
I had forgotten this one, but I remembered that is didn't sound like a "good" police action. I guess I need to see the video.
Isn't this stuff what tazers were invented for?
Posted by: Dogbert at December 03, 2014 06:27 PM (6PDfn)
The guy was resisting arrest. Yes. But he was unarmed, non-violent.
The cop, not in the heat of the moment, did a naked choke hold. A banned technique due to how many people it ends up killing.
He kills the guy. So he does something illegal, dangerous, and someone dies. In what other world does a non-cop get away with something like this.
The cop deserves to go on trial for what he did.
Posted by: HoboJerk, Re-branded at December 03, 2014 06:28 PM (E8IHS)
Posted by: Boss Moss at December 03, 2014 06:28 PM (ZeBBB)
Posted by: Truck Monkey, as Voiced by Brian Dennehy at December 03, 2014 06:28 PM (jucos)
It's 100% preventable. 100% manslaughter.
Posted by: HoboJerk, Re-branded at December 03, 2014 06:28 PM (E8IHS)
Posted by: Lincolntf at December 03, 2014 06:26 PM (2cS/G)
Bonus points if you can correctly name the (now) Boston neighborhood from which the cannon were mounted that drove the Brits from Boston proper.
Posted by: Sean Bannion at December 03, 2014 06:28 PM (V+kmg)
So being LECTURED by some that we must follow all laws... even when the Government no longer Governs with the consent of the People.. Well.. lets just say it trips my trigger..
Posted by: Wolf, Big Bad, 1 ea.. at December 03, 2014 06:25 PM (f0pWu)>>>
Amen.
Posted by: gm at December 03, 2014 06:29 PM (/kBoL)
Posted by: sunny-dee at December 03, 2014 06:29 PM (EBoCD)
Posted by: --- at December 03, 2014 06:29 PM (MMC8r)
Posted by: Berserker-Dragonheads Division at December 03, 2014 06:23 PM (FMbng)
One of the reasons County Sheriffs still have some power, is that their office stemmed from that time period...
Posted by: Wolf, Big Bad, 1 ea... at December 03, 2014 06:29 PM (f0pWu)
and an equally long tradition of people going to prison or being killed for doing so...
or was that the point you wanted to make?
Posted by: redc1c4 at December 03, 2014 06:29 PM (7vjeC)
---
No, he didn't and no, it wasn't.
Posted by: Costanza Defense at December 03, 2014 06:29 PM (ZPrif)
Yeah scoggdog, I love authority, never criticize it at all. It's not
possible to look at different situations objectively. Go fuck yourself
with your fucking shinebox.
Maybe shit will go right, and you can get a chance to try and fuck me yourself. I look forward to your attempt.
Posted by: ScoggDog at December 03, 2014 06:29 PM (xWPj1)
Pepper spray is going to do a potentially dangerous number on someone with severe asthma.
That came up from some left-leaning friends when the UCDavis cop sprayed some OWSers. CHEMICAL WARFARE! 3 FT instead of 6 FT!
It's part of a pattern of selective outrage that paralyzes action.
Everything's the wrong possible response - so don't do anything at all, I guess. Let's have a society of contradicting laws that the police aren't allowed to enforce.
Posted by: Chocolate Sprinkled CM at December 03, 2014 06:29 PM (0NdlF)
And earlier your example included that you had knowledge of your son's asthma.
A cop...is not as familiar with a total stranger's health."
Yeah, he moved his arms. That doesn't call for a tackle. This is one of the biggest parts of the problem. The cops couldn't talk to the man? Why jump to knocking him to the ground?
As for the analogy, You are missing the point. The point does not rest, at all, on my knowledge of the person's various ailments. The only question is if I know that my actions could cause someone to die. In both my example and the cop, the answer is yes. The only reason the asthma matters is that the man may not had died from the choke hold if he hadn't had it.
Maybe the cop has taken down a dozen men like this and just got unlucky this time. It doesn't matter. The chance of death existed in all previous situations. It is a risk that should not have been taken, and it caused a man to die.
Posted by: Lauren at December 03, 2014 06:29 PM (BPMYx)
I was being sarcastic. I think that particular statement is utter bullshit.
Good to hear, broseph. I've been hearing that phrase an awful lot lately and it makes me ill.
Posted by: Soothsayer's Imaginary Home For Incorrigible Boys & Girls at December 03, 2014 06:30 PM (rTCJ6)
That is wrong. Contribution to cause of death in part from neck and chest compression while in a prone position. He died of a heart attack on the way to the hospital.
Posted by: Bob Belcher at December 03, 2014 06:30 PM (014lE)
Posted by: Havedash at December 03, 2014 06:30 PM (G1XMn)
Posted by: Buzzion at December 03, 2014 06:30 PM (3T5T0)
Is it first source material?
How about giving us some links?
Posted by: Your Friendly Danube River Guide at December 03, 2014 06:25 PM (RJMhd)
No, no, no. You don't understand how the game is played.
You just drop some shit in a thread, don't back it up, and then get pissed off when someone asks for sourcing.
Posted by: Sean Bannion at December 03, 2014 06:30 PM (V+kmg)
Posted by: Nigel West Dickens at December 03, 2014 06:30 PM (/nR7C)
Posted by: helloit's me Donna and I know nuthink! at December 03, 2014 06:30 PM (Bn6aD)
Posted by: Lincolntf at December 03, 2014 06:30 PM (2cS/G)
Posted by: wth at December 03, 2014 06:30 PM (wAQA5)
Posted by: sunny-dee at December 03, 2014 06:31 PM (EBoCD)
But like Ace pointed out, once you've cried wolf one too many times, when the real wolf comes, no one will come save you.
Posted by: Average Jen at December 03, 2014 06:31 PM (q5WpJ)
If you're out on bail and get re-arrested for doing the same thing the judge is not going to put you in minor league jail.
Posted by: DaveA at December 03, 2014 06:31 PM (DL2i+)
Posted by: Boss Moss at December 03, 2014 06:31 PM (ZeBBB)
Posted by: Abner Louima at December 03, 2014 06:31 PM (jucos)
Feds should mandate wooden spoons for all police officers.
Posted by: garrett at December 03, 2014 06:31 PM (TBBgZ)
I'll say this, though: I wouldn't mind if the cops were allowed to choke the shit outta all the illegals selling flowers in the middle of the road, holding up traffic and becoming road hazards.
Posted by: Soothsayer's Imaginary Home For Incorrigible Boys & Girls at December 03, 2014 06:31 PM (rTCJ6)
It's 100% preventable. 100% manslaughter.
Posted by: HoboJerk, Re-branded at December 03, 2014 06:28 PM (E8IHS)
********
And you can definitely see that the "hold" is illegal?
I just don't think I know enough about the damn hold to tell from the video if it is illegal or not.
But I would think that the grand jury was instructed on that more than the average person on the street.
Posted by: Your Friendly Danube River Guide at December 03, 2014 06:31 PM (RJMhd)
Frankly, I think everyone on the right is looking to prove "We're not one of those sorts of people who automatically defends anyone who kills a black person."
And we did that in three Racial Incidents running.
Kemosabe, please!
The idea that cops gun down black people without a damned good reason is less likely than Obama ripping off his face on live TV to reveal a lizard beneath. So I tend to give the cops the benefit of the doubt.
I sided with the shooter in both the Brown and Martin cases. This case I don't know enough about. And the case of the 12 year old kid with the airsoft pistol sounds like total overreaction to me, but I can be convinced otherwise.
Posted by: despair at December 03, 2014 06:31 PM (dcY7v)
The cop deserves to go on trial for what he did.
Posted by: HoboJerk, Re-branded at December 03, 2014 06:28 PM (E8IHS)
Concur.... ever hear the saying that an AG can get a grand jury to indict a Ham sandwich???
That's because there is no defense there... the Grand Jury ONLY sees what the AG wants them to see...
Its very easy for them to direct an indictment one way or the other...
Posted by: Wolf, Big Bad, 1 ea... at December 03, 2014 06:31 PM (f0pWu)
Posted by: Costanza Defense at December 03, 2014 06:29 PM (ZPrif)
https://twitter.com/seanmdav/status/540274954223497216
whoooooops
Posted by: HoboJerk, Re-branded at December 03, 2014 06:32 PM (E8IHS)
Posted by: Kenway at December 03, 2014 06:32 PM (yRj9r)
Hell of a civil case for Ben Crump et al. Try even voxpslaining nuance of hold, policy, resisting arrest to stoopid, Gruberized lofo jury. Goin gnowhere.
As to riots to follow, two things:
(1) anarchist/commies just glad gotta nother reason. With $harpton and crew, f*ck the facts. Riot! Problem with that, talk to Preezy, "we be stayin' the course."
(2) Toto, we're not in Fersguson anymore. You're in NYC shitforbrains, your whore momma drop you on your pointy head in shitbirth out of 5 story window on 22nd or somethin'? /NY cabbie mode.
The rioters, if any, will not get kumbaya treatment unless that new mayor De Bl' asshoseeo has some real sway with the NYPD. It may just be a march after all (oh, with blocked freeways nationwide)
Posted by: eureka! at December 03, 2014 06:32 PM (loPn3)
You are wrong to tar conservatives as reacting out of some racial guilt. Your assertion that some number of those forcibly arrested will die is correct and is why the footprint of the state should be kept small. That is a natural conservative response.
Posted by: typo dynamofo at December 03, 2014 06:32 PM (IVgIK)
Posted by: HoboJerk, Re-branded at December 03, 2014 06:32 PM (E8IHS)
Posted by: sunny-dee at December 03, 2014 06:29 PM (EBoCD)
That's what I was wondering. It seems that cops didn't exist until people started packing themselves into cities.
Posted by: Berserker-Dragonheads Division at December 03, 2014 06:32 PM (FMbng)
No one.
Any care to try?
Posted by: GMB - Tyrant 2nd Class at December 03, 2014 06:33 PM (RQ2Z6)
Posted by: Boss Moss at December 03, 2014 06:33 PM (ZeBBB)
Posted by: Costanza Defense at December 03, 2014 06:33 PM (ZPrif)
Posted by: Bob Belcher
Bullshit
This has all been widely reported.
I even quoted it twice.
Here is the 3rd time
"there was compression of the neck, that was the cause of death"
You people need to stop.
It is a joke.
Posted by: Jay in PA at December 03, 2014 06:33 PM (7T0u2)
Will there be masks?
I hope there'll be masks.
Posted by: BackwardsBoy, Curmudgeon Extraordinaire at December 03, 2014 06:33 PM (0HooB)
Posted by: Abner Louima at December 03, 2014 06:31 PM (jucos)
You owe me a keyboard.
Hey, I meant to ask, how's your ass healing?
Posted by: Sean Bannion at December 03, 2014 06:33 PM (V+kmg)
And be damned if I am going to trust the media anymore--they have lost all credibility.
Posted by: Your Friendly Danube River Guide at December 03, 2014 06:33 PM (RJMhd)
Why do people keep saying this? It's as bad as the hands up thing.
Posted by: Meremortal at December 03, 2014 06:33 PM (1Y+hH)
--
hey, dipshit, you are lying.
Posted by: Costanza Defense at December 03, 2014 06:34 PM (ZPrif)
Posted by: Truck Monkey, as Voiced by Brian Dennehy at December 03, 2014 06:34 PM (jucos)
---
No, he didn't and no, it wasn't."
There is clearly doubt that the choke killed him, but there is no doubt that this was a choke. If I, standing behind you, wrap the blade of my right arm in front of your neck then pull back on my wrist with my left hand, I will be choking you. If you watch the full video slowly, it's very clear what happens.
Posted by: Roadrunner at December 03, 2014 06:34 PM (nWv04)
Posted by: wth at December 03, 2014 06:34 PM (wAQA5)
Sorry if I hurt your feelings scogg but you're full of shit.
Feelings not hurt in the slightest ... I'll try to make it to a MoMe sometime.
Posted by: ScoggDog at December 03, 2014 06:34 PM (xWPj1)
It is a joke.
Posted by: Jay in PA at December 03, 2014 06:33 PM (7T0u2)
Dude some people are just un-reachable. Let it go.
Posted by: HoboJerk, Re-branded at December 03, 2014 06:34 PM (E8IHS)
Posted by: helloit's me Donna and I know nuthink! at December 03, 2014 06:27 PM (Bn6aD)>>>
I believe so. Mostly for this same thing if I understand correctly. But, that said, a cop sees someone doing 36 mph in a 35 mph zone, it doesn't much matter whether the person has an arrest record or not.
Posted by: gm at December 03, 2014 06:35 PM (/kBoL)
Posted by: Jay in PA at December 03, 2014 06:35 PM (7T0u2)
You just drop some shit in a thread, don't back it up, and then get pissed off when someone asks for sourcing.
...
Here's some shit for you to choke on:
http://nydn.us/1AIiszD
Posted by: chicken choker at December 03, 2014 06:35 PM (nlQae)
So Grand Juries are good when they are there to protect from over zealous prosecutors but bad when they don't indict someone you want hung.
Posted by: Bob Belcher at December 03, 2014 06:35 PM (014lE)
Posted by: Boss Moss at December 03, 2014 06:35 PM (ZeBBB)
No one.
Any care to try?
It's up there *waves upthread* somewhere.
Posted by: BackwardsBoy, Curmudgeon Extraordinaire at December 03, 2014 06:35 PM (0HooB)
Posted by: Jay in PA at December 03, 2014 06:35 PM (7T0u2)
You know you don't have to comment if He's boring you...
Posted by: helloit's me Donna and I know nuthink! at December 03, 2014 06:36 PM (Bn6aD)
Posted by: Grampa Jimbo at December 03, 2014 06:36 PM (V70Uh)
As a result, I'm going to be a lot more suspicious about cases like this in the future.
If folks don't like it, maybe they should quit raising the alarm in questionable cases. You cry "wolf" enough times, people are going to eventually suspect you are full of shit, and they'll be a lot less likely to help when a REAL wolf finally shows up.
Posted by: Ex-liberal at December 03, 2014 06:37 PM (R1mDg)
And be damned if I am going to trust the media anymore--they have lost all credibility."
Just search for eric garner death and you will find plenty of full unedited videos. There's no lack of information on this. The full video+audio exists, and the medical examiner ruled it a homicide. The cop may or may not deserve to be indicted, but these facts are clear.
People here are deliberately obfuscating these facts, which is disappointing.
Posted by: Roadrunner at December 03, 2014 06:37 PM (nWv04)
Posted by: Jay in PA at December 03, 2014 06:35 PM (7T0u2)
*********
Well I have asked you repeatedly and specifically for first source materials.
There is a reason why we do not try people in the court of public opinion--but that is what you seem to want to do.
You cannot supplant our legals system with the authority of the media.
Posted by: Your Friendly Danube River Guide at December 03, 2014 06:37 PM (RJMhd)
Posted by: redenzo at December 03, 2014 06:37 PM (WCnJW)
Posted by: Boss Moss at December 03, 2014 06:37 PM (ZeBBB)
No, you don't understand, the ME is lying
this costanza idiot says so.
Posted by: Jay in PA at December 03, 2014 06:37 PM (7T0u2)
Posted by: Truck Monkey, as Voiced by Brian Dennehy at December 03, 2014 06:37 PM (jucos)
http://nydn.us/1AIiszD
Posted by: chicken choker at December 03, 2014 06:35 PM (nlQae)
Choking Truthers in here. Dear God.
Posted by: HoboJerk, Re-branded at December 03, 2014 06:37 PM (E8IHS)
Absolutely I would....you WILL NOT WIN that argument EVER Truck Monkey, you know me well enough to know I am no holster sniffer....
the guy chose to put his life in peril when he exercised his "sovereign hood veto"...
were he white at most there'd have been a civil case you do not get to say "no" to arrest unless you're Wyatt Fucking Earp at the OK corral.
Posted by: Sven S Blade a.k.a. El Assassin@sven10077 at December 03, 2014 06:37 PM (/4AZU)
It would help protect all involved.
Posted by: eman at December 03, 2014 06:38 PM (mR7Es)
People here are deliberately obfuscating these facts, which is disappointing.
Posted by: Roadrunner at December 03, 2014 06:37 PM (nWv04)
************
Ya--cripes I guess I will have to go look for the medical examiner's report.
Posted by: Your Friendly Danube River Guide at December 03, 2014 06:38 PM (RJMhd)
Hey look! Sarah Palin!
Posted by: Havedash at December 03, 2014 06:38 PM (G1XMn)
What is this even supposed to mean?
The ME did an autopsy (so did the family pathologist) and the results were widely reported.
If you don't like the results, saying "provide me the source materials" doesn't change the results.
Posted by: Jay in PA at December 03, 2014 06:39 PM (7T0u2)
I still haven't forgotten about our FLaMoMee.
Insomniac was around earlier, too. That's three, otherwise known as A Fap of Morons.
Posted by: BackwardsBoy, Curmudgeon Extraordinaire at December 03, 2014 06:39 PM (0HooB)
I wouldn't submit to being handcuffed for a moving violation or some similar misdemeanor. Would you?
No fuckin way.
Posted by: Soothsayer's Imaginary Home For Incorrigible Boys & Girls at December 03, 2014 06:39 PM (rTCJ6)
Posted by: Bob Belcher at December 03, 2014 06:35 PM (014lE)
Nope.... Grand Juries... are Grand Juries...
In the Ferguson case, they have released what they told the Grand Jury.... and based on that, I think they got it correct.
In this case, they have not released that information...
So all I can go on, is the video I see... which would lead me to think this should at least have gotten some day in a real court... where ALL the evidence could have been examined in an adversarial Court.
Posted by: Wolf, Big Bad, 1 ea... at December 03, 2014 06:39 PM (f0pWu)
Posted by: Bob Belcher at December 03, 2014 06:39 PM (014lE)
Posted by: GMB - Tyrant 2nd Class at December 03, 2014 06:39 PM (RQ2Z6)
Posted by: Roadrunner at December 03, 2014 06:34 PM (nWv04)>>>
And that NYPD bans choke holds.
Posted by: gm at December 03, 2014 06:39 PM (/kBoL)
Posted by: helloit's me Donna and I know nuthink! at December 03, 2014 06:39 PM (Bn6aD)
Posted by: helloit's me Donna and I know nuthink! at December 03, 2014 06:36 PM (Bn6aD)
***********
YOU KNOW? YOU DON'T HAVE TO COMMENT? IF HE'S BORING YOU.....?
Posted by: AL SHARPTON, NOW SCREAMING INTO A MEGAPHONE at December 03, 2014 06:39 PM (jucos)
Wrong again. You really need to read up more on this subject if you are going to express opinions.
Posted by: Meremortal at December 03, 2014 06:39 PM (1Y+hH)
You do not have the right to resist arrest,
If you resist arrest you may be permanently injured and possibly killed."
If you need an attorney and you cannot afford one, one will be provided.
Posted by: Grampa Jimbo at December 03, 2014 06:40 PM (V70Uh)
Posted by: Boss Moss at December 03, 2014 06:40 PM (ZeBBB)
Posted by: Jay in PA at December 03, 2014 06:40 PM (7T0u2)
they are often stolen or "bootlegged" Carolinian smokes...
Canadian pro wrestler Dino Bravo was killed by the French mob in Quebec over not sharing his swag's profits....
The "Great State and City of New York" killed the guy if anyone with their jackwagon tax laws....
but just b/c laws are fucking retarded does not give you the "NO NO I IS OUTRAGED!" trump card...
fight enough cops and you will die...
it took half a dozen cops to take pop down once but taken down he was.
Posted by: Sven S Blade a.k.a. El Assassin@sven10077 at December 03, 2014 06:40 PM (/4AZU)
THIs aggression against the New York Sack Exchange will not stand.
Posted by: garrett at December 03, 2014 06:41 PM (TBBgZ)
THIs aggression against the New York Sack Exchange will not stand.
Posted by: garrett at December 03, 2014 06:41 PM (TBBgZ)
Posted by: Dr. Hussein at December 03, 2014 06:41 PM (wAQA5)
Posted by: helloit's me Donna and I know nuthink! at December 03, 2014 06:36 PM (Bn6aD)
That's retarded, sir.
Posted by: Rachel Genteal at December 03, 2014 06:41 PM (sDapq)
Posted by: Boss Moss at December 03, 2014 06:28 PM (ZeBBB)>>>
I find the likelihood quite high, actually. Well, maybe he wasn't fat.
Posted by: gm at December 03, 2014 06:41 PM (/kBoL)
hence, 'bobbies'. There had been local constables in British cities, but a national govt wanted a national police. Patronage, prestige, control, etc
same as it ever was
Posted by: the nationality nazi at December 03, 2014 06:41 PM (8CdUx)
Youtube!
Posted by: Jay in PA at December 03, 2014 06:40 PM (7T0u2)
Choke Illuminati confirmed.
Posted by: HoboJerk, Re-branded at December 03, 2014 06:41 PM (E8IHS)
Quite we can call it "SCOAMF Warning"
Posted by: Sven S Blade a.k.a. El Assassin@sven10077 at December 03, 2014 06:41 PM (/4AZU)
Is it first source material?
How about giving us some links?
Posted by: Your Friendly Danube River Guide at December 03, 2014 06:25 PM (RJMhd)
No, no, no. You don't understand how the game is played.
You just drop some shit in a thread, don't back it up, and then get pissed off when someone asks for sourcing.
Posted by: Sean Bannion at December 03, 2014 06:30 PM (V+kmg)
**********
Great--now it looks like they do not understand the term--"first source".
Posted by: Your Friendly Danube River Guide at December 03, 2014 06:42 PM (RJMhd)
If you were out on bail breaking the law and there was some dispute you as to whether or not you had been in a fight, had 31 priors and 4 convictions .. you would tell the cops, multiple, that today was the day it ends and you weren't going in? Thats like saying all the gentle giant of the midwest did was refuse to get on the sidewalk. Context matters.
Sorry, no sympathy.
Posted by: JackStraw at December 03, 2014 06:42 PM (g1DWB)
Posted by: DaveA at December 03, 2014 06:42 PM (DL2i+)
Posted by: Central Committee of the Party at December 03, 2014 06:42 PM (V70Uh)
you know me well enough to know I am no holster sniffer....
But Sven, that ain't the point - at least not MY point ...
Every time a cop has to use force, is it a fucking required to go full bore ? At this point - I'm sick and damned tired about hearing how "in danger" they are all the time. Nobody drafter their asses. They volunteered. Every time our civil liberties are curtailed, "it's for the safety of Law Enforcement" is always a pretext.
Eric Garner was a dumb ass. Understood. Got it. Agreed. No argument.
But his ass is down, and "99" still holding on. He's belly down, one are already cuffed, and "99" still holding his head while another cop's kneeing him down. They've got six damned cops on him, for crying out loud.
If they're that damned scared, I suggest Accounting Classes. He's under control. It's excessive.
Posted by: ScoggDog at December 03, 2014 06:42 PM (xWPj1)
What part of "the cop used an insta-death magic choke-hold banned in 87 states and that was really super totally the cause of death" is hard to understand?
Seriously people, it's in quotation marks. That means it happened.
You can't doubt stuff in quotation marks.
Posted by: Concerned in Seattle at December 03, 2014 06:42 PM (ZPrif)
Posted by: helloit's me Donna and I know nuthink! at December 03, 2014 06:42 PM (Bn6aD)
Posted by: Sven S Blade a.k.a. El Assassin@sven10077 at December 03, 2014 06:40 PM (/4AZU)>>>
True enough. But he didn't actually fight the cops.
Posted by: gm at December 03, 2014 06:43 PM (/kBoL)
Posted by: gm at
They banned a certain chokehold. The one that can crush the voice box.
The one the officer used is the carotid hold which cuts off blood flow. It's not banned. You can see this in the video.
Posted by: Meremortal at December 03, 2014 06:43 PM (1Y+hH)
It's the only fair way to apply proportionate force when arresting a suspect.
Posted by: Entfremdung Politik at December 03, 2014 06:43 PM (VV+LQ)
Grand Juries are an antiquated relic of imperialism. To achieve Social
Justice, we demand the power to arrest and summarily send criminals to re-education camps.
Posted by: Central Committee of the Party at December 03, 2014 06:43 PM (V70Uh)
Yeah, knock it off or we'll steal your lunch.
Posted by: DaveA at December 03, 2014 06:43 PM (DL2i+)
The ME did an autopsy (so did the family pathologist) and the results were widely reported.
First source materials means the original documents. Like the actual autopsy report.
Because as trustworthy as the media is about all things news ... some of us troglodytes don't trust their summaries of fact.
Posted by: Chocolate Sprinkled CM at December 03, 2014 06:44 PM (0NdlF)
Wrong again. You really need to read up more on this subject if you are going to express opinions."
Dude, been doing BJJ for 10 years now. I don't need to "read up" about how chokes work.
Posted by: Roadrunner at December 03, 2014 06:44 PM (nWv04)
Posted by: Meremortal at December 03, 2014 06:45 PM (1Y+hH)
Posted by: garrett at December 03, 2014 06:45 PM (TBBgZ)
Posted by: Boss Moss at December 03, 2014 06:28 PM (ZeBBB)>>>
I find the likelihood quite high, actually. Well, maybe he wasn't fat.
Posted by: gm at December 03, 2014 06:41 PM (/kBoL)
Well Suh, although well done... it was those Bostonians.... not in the Great State of Virginia... in Tobacco country!
Posted by: Pvt. Ramey, trying to buy a loosie at Valley Forge at December 03, 2014 06:45 PM (f0pWu)
Posted by: FenelonSpoke at December 03, 2014 06:45 PM (FS3xS)
Posted by: Concerned in Seattle at December 03, 2014 06:42 PM (ZPrif)
Stealing that for the inevitable conclusion of a conversation with a liberal. I might even use air quotes.
Posted by: flounder at December 03, 2014 06:45 PM (sDapq)
and I have OFTEN alluded to that as someone who engaged in security and personal protection work...
it stuns me that cops in the 80s to mid 90s were somehow able to keep kids like me under control with billy clubs, revolvers, and shotguns but there you have it.
At the end of the day the cops' job is bringing in people who break the law or cause public harm and resisting arrest undermines respect and deference for the law....
I blame electricity, before TV glamorized the occutard mindset it was understood piss off the law enough you were gonna get fucked up.
Posted by: Sven S Blade a.k.a. El Assassin@sven10077 at December 03, 2014 06:46 PM (/4AZU)
Posted by: Concerned in Seattle at December 03, 2014 06:46 PM (ZPrif)
Posted by: Doom at December 03, 2014 06:46 PM (8SBL3)
Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu...
ie Hopnam Gracie Style
Posted by: Sven S Blade a.k.a. El Assassin@sven10077 at December 03, 2014 06:46 PM (/4AZU)
Here's the thing, the fact that he's a dumb ass is why he's dead.
He was breaking the law, the cops acted to stop him from doing so. The proximate cause - the one thing that, had it not happened nothing bad would have happened - was him breaking the law.
It's a fucking stupid law and I can't believe the cops didn't have better things to do. But he was, in fact, breaking the law. Had he not done that...everything was good.
He did that...so everything wasn't good.
If they're that damned scared, I suggest Accounting Classes. He's under control. It's excessive.
Concur 110%. Yup....they're trained to escalate and they're also trained to DE-escalate as the situation calls warrants. The best that can be said here is that both sides own a piece of this. But...again....the proximate cause was....anyone? Bueller? Bueller?
Posted by: Sean Bannion at December 03, 2014 06:47 PM (V+kmg)
Posted by: Roadrunner
Sorry I wasn't clear. I meant reading up on this particular case.
Posted by: Meremortal at December 03, 2014 06:47 PM (1Y+hH)
Posted by: DaveA at December 03, 2014 06:42 PM (DL2i+)>>>
Agreed. If he told you that you're under arrest, which I did not hear in the video that I watched. But, it is certainly not fighting nor warranting deadly force (or force well known to cause a reasonable likelihood of death).
Posted by: gm at December 03, 2014 06:47 PM (/kBoL)
Posted by: ScoggDog at December 03, 2014 06:47 PM (xWPj1)
Posted by: "Fresh" Brown Eggs at December 03, 2014 06:47 PM (FS3xS)
I sided with the shooter in both the Brown and Martin cases. This case I don't know enough about. And the case of the 12 year old kid with the airsoft pistol sounds like total overreaction to me, but I can be convinced otherwise.
Posted by: despair at December 03, 2014 06:31 PM (dcY7v)
I agree on all points. The Martin and Brown cases sounded like pretty clear-cut self defense from the beginning.
This incident is much more complicated. Yes, the guy was a career criminal (although I haven't read his rap sheet--was he just a petty criminal who kept getting arrested for dumb stuff like this, or did he commit any serious crimes?), and the violation in this case was stupid. Apparently, it wasn't even a law, but an FDA regulation.
The 12 year old kid does sound like overreaction to me, and it was apparently a rookie cop who shot him. To my mind, that's the case that should provoke outrage, not the other three.
Posted by: rickl at December 03, 2014 06:48 PM (sdi6R)
Posted by: The Mega Independent at December 03, 2014 06:48 PM (QCo5R)
Posted by: wth at December 03, 2014 06:48 PM (wAQA5)
Posted by: Siggy Freud, M.D. at December 03, 2014 06:48 PM (8CdUx)
Posted by: rickl at December 03, 2014 06:49 PM (sdi6R)
Posted by: chicken choker at December 03, 2014 06:49 PM (nlQae)
There are avenues open to you post arrest. Go before the judge and argue your case. If you believe the cop was out of order, file a complaint with internal affairs. Resisting won't end well for you.
Not saying that the cops are always right or always wrong, but there are ways of doing things that while, an inconvenience, will not result in your death.
Posted by: Duke Lowell at December 03, 2014 06:49 PM (KFdZd)
Posted by: Sean Bannion at December 03, 2014 06:47 PM (V+kmg)>>>
I'd say that the proximate cause was the nanny state outlawing selling a cigarette.
Posted by: gm at December 03, 2014 06:49 PM (/kBoL)
Posted by: Sean Bannion at December 03, 2014 06:47 PM (V+kmg)
Would, IMO, have been found in a Jury trial, where BOTH sides could have their say...
Posted by: The Big Bad Wolf at December 03, 2014 06:49 PM (f0pWu)
Posted by: wooga at December 03, 2014 06:49 PM (LvEg1)
Militarization of the cops was and remains wrong in Ferguson and elsewhere. If they are going to riot, they are going to riot, and I would rather have property damage than soldiers or pseudo-soldiers firing live rounds into crowds. Choke holds and arrests for bullshit violations (not even misdemeanors aside from "resisting arrest" which was wrong in the first place) are not something for conservatives to countenance.
We can criticize police conduct without endorsing the ravings of the grievance mongers.
Posted by: imp at December 03, 2014 06:49 PM (XIXZz)
"You're under arrest"
Garner: "Okay" (submits)
-----------------
Okay. Given that Garner was having no part of it, then what?
My opinion is that the cop(s) made a HUGE error. I do not think for a moment that they intended to kill the guy...., so there was some misjudgement. The fact that Garner died doesn't mean that the cops overreacted, or acted in malice, or even that there was negligence.
The one part that gives me pause is Garner saying that he can't breathe. It's a shitty situation that might have been avoided had Garner been co-operative.
Posted by: Mike Hammer, etc., etc. at December 03, 2014 06:49 PM (l1zOH)
The one the officer used is the carotid hold which cuts off blood flow. It's not banned. You can see this in the video."
You aren't going to do a blood choke by pulling the blade of your forearm against the center of the throat, with the crook of your elbow way off to the side. Blood chokes work by applying pressure against the sides of the neck, meaning the person's chin should be resting literally on the crook of your elbow, so that your forearm and upper arm are making a V. That is not how the choke was applied in the video. The line of the officer's forearm (the line running from his wrist to his elbow) was parallel to the line between Garner's shoulders, and the point of contact then of the forearm was on the front of the throat.
That is by definition a windpipe choke, not a blood choke. But then again I'm just some guy who's tapped people out with various chokes so what the hell do I know.
Posted by: Roadrunner at December 03, 2014 06:50 PM (nWv04)
At the end of the day the cops' job is bringing in people who break the law or cause public harm...
Indeed, bring them in...so they can have their day in court.
I'd like if Garner's death serves to send a message that resisting arrest (for misdemeanors) doesn't give officers license to kill.
Posted by: Soothsayer's Imaginary Home For Incorrigible Boys & Girls at December 03, 2014 06:51 PM (rTCJ6)
Yes he did, by refusing to comply he escalated the interview into a physical event...
you do not get to play dodge the handcuffs champ.
They say "you're under arrest" at that point you are bound by law to submit.
Don't like it let's pass the "whatevs dude" law...
fuck I'd knock on doors for the "whatevs dude" law...
Companies couyld have GREAT fun with EPA that way
Posted by: Sven S Blade a.k.a. El Assassin@sven10077 at December 03, 2014 06:51 PM (/4AZU)
Posted by: The Mega Independent at December 03, 2014 06:51 PM (QCo5R)
Is that still happening, or have people bothered to check on basic facts before spouting off?
Posted by: Burn the Witch at December 03, 2014 06:51 PM (xSCb6)
Let the Left defend against that.
Posted by: southdakotaboy at December 03, 2014 06:51 PM (yh4lQ)
Posted by: redenzo at December 03, 2014 06:52 PM (WCnJW)
I think we'll have a lot less property damage and riots in general if live rounds were fired into crowds.
Some accuse the WWII US Airforce of committing warcrimes with its firebombing of cities ... so why is it okay for a ruly mob to do the same?
Posted by: Chocolate Sprinkled CM at December 03, 2014 06:52 PM (0NdlF)
Posted by: Your Friendly Danube River Guide
A link was already provided
Here it is again http://nydn.us/1AIiszD
A response of "yeah, but the media lies!" is laughable and absurd.
Posted by: Jay in PA at December 03, 2014 06:52 PM (7T0u2)
Posted by: helloit's me Donna and I know nuthink! at December 03, 2014 06:52 PM (Bn6aD)
Posted by: Tammy al-Thor at December 03, 2014 06:24 PM (6P3Qb)
________________
Exactly. In every one of these events, had the young black man done what the police told him to do, he would not be dead. It's very simple: when the police tells you to do something, you fucking do it. Because in 99 out of 100 cases, no matter what happens, you will be on the losing side of the battle. In the extreme case you die, but even in the non-extreme case, more bad shit than good will come from picking a fight with the police. That's just common sense, that apparently many black men lack.
Posted by: Mr. Moo Moo at December 03, 2014 06:52 PM (0LHZx)
Posted by: The Mega Independent at December 03, 2014 06:52 PM (QCo5R)
Posted by: Duke Lowell at December 03, 2014 06:49 PM (KFdZd)>>>
Yes, we realize that the government has a monopoly on the use of force. Which is why the government and its agents should be sure to use discretion and appropriate levels of force. And that we must hold them accountable, rather than simply dismissing it as - yeah, the government used force, whatcha gonna do?
Posted by: gm at December 03, 2014 06:53 PM (/kBoL)
Posted by: The Big Bad Wolf at December 03, 2014 06:49 PM (f0pWu)
Hey, they followed the process - which was the grand jury. They declined to indict.
Can't say there wasn't due process. Only can say it wasn't the process some of us would have opted for.
Posted by: Sean Bannion at December 03, 2014 06:53 PM (V+kmg)
arrest (for misdemeanors) doesn't give officers license to kill.
Because the officers showed the clear intent to kill this poor hapless bastard immediately.
I see people are still saying clearly stupid shit.
Posted by: Burn the Witch at December 03, 2014 06:53 PM (xSCb6)
Once he was placed under arrest EVERYTHING that happened hence is at least partially Garner's culpability.
It's why if you and a buddy are in a car and it crashes in the commission of a felony or flight from arrest for a felony you get charged with manslaughter to homicide....
actions have consequences, until we have a tickle ray vulcan mind meld resistance can carry horrible costs.
Posted by: Sven S Blade a.k.a. El Assassin@sven10077 at December 03, 2014 06:53 PM (/4AZU)
Let the Left defend against that."
Meanwhile in my thoroughly Rep and Conservative dominated farm town it is illegal to sell alcohol; a dry town in the 21st century. Both parties enjoy criminalizing everything.
Posted by: Roadrunner at December 03, 2014 06:53 PM (nWv04)
trained to DE-escalate as the situation calls warrants. The best that
can be said here is that both sides own a piece of this.
But...again....the proximate cause was....anyone? Bueller? Bueller?
First cause was St. Loosie. Concur.
But you ever notice the Support Mah Authoritah crowd around here ? Notice some of the Gems of Logic thrown to justify 100% Police Innocence in this ? Let me recount ...
1) Garner had it coming. He's fat.
2) Garner had it coming. He's got a record.
3) Cops gotta' go home safe.
4) It wasn't a choke !!!
And I'll stand by what I've said constantly. You people that blindly support All Things Law Enforcement, will eventually either have to completely supplicate yourselves before it ... or you'll change your tune. Because you let this shit continue, and eventually it's gonna' happen to you. Excessive force is a problem, and it's getting worse. This is one of those examples.
Posted by: ScoggDog at December 03, 2014 06:53 PM (xWPj1)
a ruly mob
Posted by: Chocolate Sprinkled CM at December 03, 2014 06:52 PM (0NdlF)
That would be a Lutheran church picnic, right?
Posted by: rickl at December 03, 2014 06:53 PM (sdi6R)
fuck I'd knock on doors for the "whatevs dude" law...
Companies couyld have GREAT fun with EPA that way
Posted by: Sven S Blade a.k.a. El Assassin@sven10077 at December 03, 2014 06:51 PM (/4AZU)
Uh... didn't the President just do that???
Posted by: The Big Bad Wolf at December 03, 2014 06:53 PM (f0pWu)
Posted by: Jay in PA at December 03, 2014 06:54 PM (7T0u2)
We have an indeterminate proportion of 13% who literally feel like "fuck you the law don't apply to me OWE-BAMA" and act on it...
this ain't gonna have a happy ending.
Posted by: Sven S Blade a.k.a. El Assassin@sven10077 at December 03, 2014 06:55 PM (/4AZU)
--
"facts" are a white heteronormative male concept.
I'm very angry about this thing I just learned about!! I don't need anybody whitesplaining it away. Or mansplaining. Or, um, hetero-splaining.
Only one I want doing any 'splaining is Lucy.
Posted by: Concerned in Seattle at December 03, 2014 06:55 PM (ZPrif)
A media link is not a first source. You're not providing what was asked for.
As for absurd... Does St Trayvon or Michael Brown ring a bell?
Posted by: Chocolate Sprinkled CM at December 03, 2014 06:55 PM (0NdlF)
Choke me!
Posted by: The Chicken at December 03, 2014 06:55 PM (uSAVP)
Posted by: Boss Moss at December 03, 2014 06:55 PM (ZeBBB)
As a retired psych RN with many years in the ER trenches only a fool continues to apply force when common sense tells you to back off.
Posted by: penny
This also occurred to me.
If a man doesn't know the damage he's doing with his bare hands, he's an idiot or a sadist.
Posted by: Soothsayer's Imaginary Home For Incorrigible Boys & Girls at December 03, 2014 06:55 PM (rTCJ6)
Posted by: Bull at December 03, 2014 06:55 PM (mysv3)
1) Garner had it coming. He's fat.
2) Garner had it coming. He's got a record.
3) Cops gotta' go home safe.
4) It wasn't a choke !!!"
This times a million.
Posted by: Roadrunner at December 03, 2014 06:55 PM (nWv04)
The gravity of the purported offense is irrelevant. How many serious criminals get popped for traffic violations? The cops know perfectly well that the guy with a broken tail light might be a serial killer, a terrorist, or a Democrat (kidding there; of course a criminal would be a Democrat; what else would he be?)
When a cop tells you to do something, you do it, even if it's contrary to your libertarian principles. In the street is not the place to hold a philosophical debate.
Posted by: Jay Guevara at December 03, 2014 06:56 PM (oKE6c)
Posted by: "Fresh" Brown Eggs at December 03, 2014 06:47 PM (FS3xS)
************
WE AGREE?
Posted by: AL SHARPTON, NOW SCREAMING INTO A MEGAPHONE at December 03, 2014 06:56 PM (jucos)
Back when they were looking for the cop killer, the Pa State Police did the same thing (take-down, grind knee in back) to some poor guy who walked to work. If he had been a fatty they could've killed him, too.
Cops just want to go home alive and, if possible, uninjured.
If they kill people to do so they don't care.
Posted by: Ed Anger at December 03, 2014 06:56 PM (RcpcZ)
Choke me!
Posted by: The Chicken at December 03, 2014 06:55 PM (uSAVP) ------------------------------Get your own bits.
Posted by: Billy Squier at December 03, 2014 06:56 PM (QCo5R)
Yeah dude, you're a real champion of logic beating the shit out of strawmen in lieu of addressing the countless legitimate argument up and down the entire thread.
Posted by: Burn the Witch at December 03, 2014 06:56 PM (xSCb6)
Posted by: helloit's me Donna and I know nuthink! at December 03, 2014 06:52 PM (Bn6aD)>>>
Yeah. Me too. And what pisses me off is that every time people reflexively rush to the cop's defense in a questionable case like this one, they help keep the issue alive for the left to use. Even in cases that are clear cut against the decedent, such as in the Trayvon and Brown cases.
Posted by: gm at December 03, 2014 06:56 PM (/kBoL)
Yup...
it was the point of VDH's column in the sidebar...
the fucking donks think anarchy will only go from the top down...
they don't get it it will also start simmering from the bottom and middle up...
when an indeterminate % of the 67% start saying "fuck the law" it's over.
Posted by: Sven S Blade a.k.a. El Assassin@sven10077 at December 03, 2014 06:56 PM (/4AZU)
Posted by: Dead horse at December 03, 2014 06:56 PM (FS3xS)
Posted by: Sven S Blade a.k.a. El Assassin@sven10077 at December 03, 2014 06:53 PM (/4AZU)
No one disagrees with that... the question becomes how much of this is the COP's fault.
Especially if he did not follow proper procedure.
Posted by: The Big Bad Wolf at December 03, 2014 06:56 PM (f0pWu)
My goodness, is this embarrassing.
Posted by: Jay in PA at December 03, 2014 06:57 PM (7T0u2)
Watching a MUMR comment disappear.
Just find one, wait about 10 seconds, then refresh.
Poof!
Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo
---------------------------------
Like the smell of a fart.
Posted by: Roy at December 03, 2014 06:57 PM (tiOTz)
Posted by: Lincolntf at December 03, 2014 06:57 PM (2cS/G)
Posted by: Jay Guevara at December 03, 2014 06:56 PM (oKE6c)>>>
Agreed. At least until the point where you decide upon insurrection. But, aside from that, my question is this: what did the cop tell him to do? I don't hear anything on the video.
Posted by: gm at December 03, 2014 06:58 PM (/kBoL)
The one thing all of these events have in common is there is a dead low level black criminal. There are other commonalities are that the Emperor keeps intruding where he shouldn't be and Sharpton, as his emissary, is organizing protests and as a result, the ensuing violence.
Is it wrong that people are dying? Hell yes, but actions have consequences, sometimes fatal. I don't know the answer to these problems but I do know that there is culpability on both sides.
Posted by: Gmac- who is tired of all this at December 03, 2014 06:58 PM (baiNQ)
Under English common law, you had the absolute right to resist an unlawful arrest up to and including killing the cop. That is still the law in many places. Not sure about NY. But all you saying "once the cuffs are out, you have to submit" are at least partially wrong. It may be wise and practical to do so, but not legally required.
Posted by: imp at December 03, 2014 06:58 PM (XIXZz)
F*cking math.
Posted by: The Mega Independent at December 03, 2014 06:52 PM (QCo5R)
Winner! Next thread, please.
Posted by: Golfman in NC at December 03, 2014 06:59 PM (wVWRM)
If you've been voluntarily snuffed out for illegally slinging smokes and resisting arrest, you just might be a fcuking dumbass.
Posted by: Fritz at December 03, 2014 06:59 PM (dVmLD)
As for absurd... Does St Trayvon or Michael Brown ring a bell?
Posted by: Chocolate Sprinkled CM
So again, by all means, if you're so concerned that the media misrepresented the autopsy, why not bother yourself to "first source" the report yourself and prove what a sensational lie it all is?
Instead of looking for this report, you'll go with the "Nuh-uh" response and bizarrely assert it is all a lie.
Posted by: Jay in PA at December 03, 2014 06:59 PM (7T0u2)
--
I agree! I'm very concerned at how embarrassing this whole thing is.
Posted by: Concerned in Seattle at December 03, 2014 06:59 PM (ZPrif)
I stated at the outset I was troubled by the attack on the neck, I was politely told by a cop I trusted who cared about me that I was a poof fit for LE b/c of my temper.
I am not condoning the cops' action at all, butt at the end of the day what happened here was predictable.
Posted by: Sven S Blade a.k.a. El Assassin@sven10077 at December 03, 2014 07:00 PM (/4AZU)
2) Garner had it coming. He's got a record.
3) Cops gotta' go home safe.
4) It wasn't a choke !!!"
Notice the really amusing things in these arguments: a person's moral character or past offenses can't be used as evidence to prove they are in the wrong now. The police can't just throw me in jail or shoot me tomorrow and say "well he was an asshole who did something illegal in the past so he had it coming"
Nobody "has it coming". We're supposed to be a nation of laws. The police killing someone who was not violently resisting arrest should be creepy whether it was a saint or a crackhead.
Posted by: Roadrunner at December 03, 2014 07:00 PM (nWv04)
And weigh in on it Obama did. Holder is also supposed to make a statement..... This is why I've had it... Just F***ing stay out of it..
Posted by: helloit's me Donna and I know nuthink! at December 03, 2014 07:00 PM (Bn6aD)
Did you read the link? The report did not just say cause of death by neck compression. You agree with that right?
Posted by: Bob Belcher at December 03, 2014 07:00 PM (014lE)
Probably just happened to have a spare professional printer handy.
Posted by: Concerned in Seattle at December 03, 2014 07:00 PM (ZPrif)
Totally.
Posted by: Jay in PA at December 03, 2014 07:01 PM (7T0u2)
Posted by: Jay Guevara at December 03, 2014 07:01 PM (oKE6c)
Posted by: Jay Guevara at December 03, 2014 06:56 PM (oKE6c)>>>
Also, I'd note that even agreeing with this sentiment doesn't mean that you have to agree with any use of force. For example, I don't think that we'd agree that Garner batting the cops hand away would justify the cop pulling his gun and shooting Garner in the face, right? So, where is the line? Does batting his hand away justify a choke hold known to have a high proclivity to cause death?
Posted by: gm at December 03, 2014 07:01 PM (/kBoL)
strawmen in lieu of addressing the countless legitimate argument up and
down the entire thread.
I lump shit like "strawman" right in there with "professionalism".
Dog whistles for "you're not playing by my rules".
Posted by: ScoggDog at December 03, 2014 07:01 PM (xWPj1)
Posted by: Jay Guevara at December 03, 2014 07:02 PM (oKE6c)
http://tinyurl.com/n8sefqo
Money quote:
"Scientists from the University of Exeter say that a compound found in the smell of rotten eggs and human flatulence might some day be useful in mitigating the cell damage responsible in part for certain diseases."
Posted by: Mike Hammer, etc., etc. at December 03, 2014 07:03 PM (l1zOH)
Posted by: Bob Belcher
Actually, it did.
See, you have a cause of death, in this case compression of the neck.
You also have contributing factors.
So as an analogy, if you get drunk and drive your car without a seat belt and crash it into the media, your cause of death will likely be "blunt force trauma to the head" with contributing factors of not wearing a seat belt and "drunk"
You're trying to say here the COD is not compression of the neck, but rather "drunk"
Posted by: Jay in PA at December 03, 2014 07:03 PM (7T0u2)
Posted by: chicken choker at December 03, 2014 07:03 PM (nlQae)
The guy was obviously begging for the Heimlich maneuver after scarfing down all his looseys in an attempt to destroy evidence.
Posted by: wth at December 03, 2014 07:03 PM (wAQA5)
sentiment doesn't mean that you have to agree with any use of force.
Posted by: gm at December 03, 2014 07:01 PM (/kBoL)
Absolutely.
Posted by: Jay Guevara at December 03, 2014 07:03 PM (oKE6c)
Posted by: Bob Belcher at December 03, 2014 07:03 PM (014lE)
Money quote:
"Scientists from the University of Exeter say that a compound found in the smell of rotten eggs and human flatulence might some day be useful in mitigating the cell damage responsible in part for certain diseases."
Posted by: Mike Hammer, etc., etc. at December 03, 2014 07:03 PM
Finally some good news...
Posted by: helloit's me Donna and I know nuthink! at December 03, 2014 07:03 PM (Bn6aD)
Posted by: Jay Guevara at December 03, 2014 07:01 PM (oKE6c)>>>
In any confrontation between citizens and government, I have a tendency to give the citizen the benefit of the doubt. Don't really like prejudge, though.
Posted by: gm at December 03, 2014 07:03 PM (/kBoL)
Used to be my stance....
MRAPS for Tots sorta dampened it....it is dying....why?
MO LE has access to a LOT of gee whiz tech MORE gee-whiz tech than the Army at had the start of the GWoT and Nixon and Choom and the gang stood down that equipment and told LE to allow the burning of a town b/c "I is outrage!"
Which means that gear ain't for riots from the communi-tay it is there to kill you and me if/when they want to.
Posted by: Sven S Blade a.k.a. El Assassin@sven10077 at December 03, 2014 07:04 PM (/4AZU)
Posted by: Boss Moss at December 03, 2014 07:04 PM (ZeBBB)
Posted by: Sven S Blade a.k.a. El Assassin@sven10077 at December 03, 2014 06:56 PM (/4AZU)
History shows that it takes just at 10% of fighting age Men to make an area ungovernable.
Early French Revolution? Russian Revolution? Tongs? Indian Revolts against the Brits...
Its what we see even currently in the Mideast and Afghanistan.
It takes closer to 25% to really take down a sitting Government....
Polls show in the American Revolution... it was about 25% really wanted independence... 25% wanted to stay with the Crown... and 50% were trying to keep their heads down....
Civil War had approximately the same type of numbers.... where almost half of each side, really did not want to fight... but got pulled in by the more vocal parts of their populations.
Posted by: The Big Bad Wolf at December 03, 2014 07:04 PM (f0pWu)
I should also say I've been busy all day, and know nothing about this
case, other than it occurred, so my comments above do not pertain
specifically to this matter, but rather to the proposition generally.
Well, that's easy to fix. Google "Eric Garner Video". You can see the entire thing for yourself.
Don't believe ANY of us. Certainly not me. Trust your own eyes.
Posted by: ScoggDog at December 03, 2014 07:04 PM (xWPj1)
Whether the choke caused a heart attack or not (it is very stressful ad adrenalin-producing to nearly get choked into unconsciousness) was something a jury should have been given the chance to decide. An indictment is not a conviction. Where there is a scintilla of doubt that the killing was justified, there should be a charge lodged, and the judicial system should sort it out.
Posted by: imp at December 03, 2014 07:04 PM (XIXZz)
Posted by: Insomniac at December 03, 2014 07:04 PM (mx5oN)
So ... you're arguing this was an unlawful arrest that Garner was righteously resisting?
Posted by: Chocolate Sprinkled CM at December 03, 2014 07:04 PM (0NdlF)
Posted by: wth at December 03, 2014 07:05 PM (wAQA5)
Posted by: Mike Hammer, etc., etc. at December 03, 2014 07:06 PM (l1zOH)
Feel that way after the Simpson verdict ... or were you glad that at least OJ was bankrupted ? I was.
I know, I know ... strawman.
Posted by: ScoggDog at December 03, 2014 07:06 PM (xWPj1)
I should also say I've been busy all day, and know nothing about this
case, other than it occurred, so my comments above do not pertain
specifically to this matter, but rather to the proposition generally.
Well, that's easy to fix. Google "Eric Garner Video". You can see the entire thing for yourself.
Don't believe ANY of us. Certainly not me. Trust your own eyes.
Posted by: ScoggDog at December 03, 2014 07:04 PM (xWPj1)
Will do. I was just popping my head above ground from work, kinda like a prairie dog.
Posted by: Jay Guevara at December 03, 2014 07:07 PM (oKE6c)
Posted by: Sven S Blade a.k.a. El Assassin@sven10077 at December 03, 2014 07:04 PM (/4AZU)>>>
I fear for my dad whenever he has to interact with a cop. His dislike is .. is there a word for palpable, except about to the millionth order of magnitude?
Posted by: gm at December 03, 2014 07:07 PM (/kBoL)
Posted by: Lincolntf at December 03, 2014 07:08 PM (2cS/G)
Posted by: Mike Hammer, etc., etc. at December 03, 2014 07:08 PM (l1zOH)
Posted by: Boss Moss at December 03, 2014 07:08 PM (ZeBBB)
Posted by: ScoggDog at December 03, 2014 07:04 PM (xWPj1)
Will do. I was just popping my head above ground from work, kinda like a prairie dog.
Posted by: Jay Guevara at December 03, 2014 07:07 PM (oKE6c)>>>
And, hey, if you can figure out if the cops actually told him he was under arrest, let me know!
Posted by: gm at December 03, 2014 07:09 PM (/kBoL)
Posted by: andycanuck at December 03, 2014 07:09 PM (T4t+V)
Instead of looking for this report, you'll go with the "Nuh-uh" response and bizarrely assert it is all a lie.
I have not said it was a lie. I have looked for the report, but haven't found it on the Internet. Did find various reports of heart attack and "compression of neck", which is not asphyxiation. News reports on ME report mention a contributing factor of heart disease - so calling it a heart attack doesn't seem outright wrong without looking at first hand sources.
In the lack of better evidence, I am comfortable saying "I don't know, this is NYC's business".
For some reason, you seem to want your second hand source be treated as a first hand source. It isn't.
Posted by: Chocolate Sprinkled CM at December 03, 2014 07:09 PM (0NdlF)
Posted by: toby928(C) at December 03, 2014 07:09 PM (rwI+c)
government, I have a tendency to give the citizen the benefit of the
doubt. Don't really like prejudge, though.
Posted by: gm at December 03, 2014 07:03 PM (/kBoL)
I hadn't thought of it that way, because I guess viscerally I don't think of cops as the government (although they obviously are part of it). I see them more as individuals, making individual decisions on the spot, whereas I see the government as implementing policies that they've had time to consider carefully. For that reason, I tend to hold the government more culpable. It isn't as if they have to make potentially life-or-death decisions in a split second, with poor, little, or no substantive information.
Posted by: Jay Guevara at December 03, 2014 07:10 PM (oKE6c)
It's easy to spot racist Gentle Giants in the comments. No logic, just fuck you whitey.
For the record, I'm White and Rural. Used to be a Loyal Republican - just below a Straight Ticket Voter.
But it's nice to know how you're thinkin'.
Posted by: ScoggDog at December 03, 2014 07:11 PM (xWPj1)
Posted by: Boss Moss at December 03, 2014 07:08 PM (ZeBBB)>>>
Unfortunately, when my white pops with zero criminal record gets capped by the government for being mouthy about how much he hates cops (and firemen and all government employees in general), nobody but me is going to care.
Posted by: gm at December 03, 2014 07:11 PM (/kBoL)
Posted by: toby928(C) at December 03, 2014 07:11 PM (rwI+c)
Friday, September 19, 2014
NEW YORK (WABC) -- There are new developments in the death of Eric Garner.
A pathologist hired by his family reviewed the autopsy and concluded Garner died from a neck compression.
But the police union insists that didn't happen from the apparent choke hold before his death.
Dr. Michael Baden, once New York City's Medical Examiner, confirmed what the current ME found in her recent autopsy of 43-year-old Eric Garner.
The ME ruled that Garner died from compression to the neck after an apparent choke-hold by a NYPD officer during a struggle on Staten Island in July.
Baden, now in private practice, was hired by Garner's family to review the autopsy and other evidence.
"I'm basically saying that it she did a good autopsy and I agree that there was compression of the neck, that was the cause of death," said Dr. Michael Baden, the Garner Family Pathologist.
I'm sure he'd sully his reputation on this "non-choke" just....because.
Posted by: Jay in PA at December 03, 2014 07:12 PM (7T0u2)
Posted by: My Brain Hurts! at December 03, 2014 07:13 PM (SFpiC)
Posted by: Jay Guevara at December 03, 2014 07:14 PM (oKE6c)
Posted by: Boss Moss at December 03, 2014 07:15 PM (ZeBBB)
But when a cop does something bad, all of a sudden it's every cop is a raving blood thirsty killer.
Gotta love the liberal mindset
Posted by: Mr. Moo Moo at December 03, 2014 07:15 PM (0LHZx)
Posted by: Jay Guevara at December 03, 2014 07:10 PM (oKE6c)>>>
Unfortunately, they seem - at least to me - to be less and less members of the community and more and more state enforcers.
Posted by: gm at December 03, 2014 07:16 PM (/kBoL)
Posted by: The Mega Independent at December 03, 2014 07:16 PM (QCo5R)
Posted by: My Brain Hurts! at December 03, 2014 07:16 PM (SFpiC)
Posted by: wth at December 03, 2014 07:17 PM (wAQA5)
Posted by: Chocolate Sprinkled CM at December 03, 2014 07:17 PM (0NdlF)
I'm not "arguing" anything (how's about them quotes?)
But seriously, I'm not. Morally, I would say that yes, this was an unlawful arrest. Dude was selling cigarettes, not posing a present or immanent threat to the peace and order of the neighborhood. Legally, I plead honest ignorance of NY law.
Posted by: imp at December 03, 2014 07:17 PM (XIXZz)
And thank you Mr. Moss. I'll confidently file you under the "Bastard had it coming" column.
We are going to save a proverbial shit-pot of money on jury pay.
Posted by: ScoggDog at December 03, 2014 07:17 PM (xWPj1)
They are. You just haven't heard about them because none of them died during the arrest, or because it wasn't exploitable by the race baiters..
Posted by: boobies at December 03, 2014 07:22 PM (J/MuT)
You mean the guy that was hired as an autopsy expert by the family of the Gentle Giant of the Midwest, that Dr. Baden.
Good call.
Posted by: JackStraw at December 03, 2014 07:23 PM (g1DWB)
These types of people walk among us each and every day. We give a police officer a couple years of training and expect them to make decisions to guard our safety in real-time, real-life scenarios where they are looking at losing their own lives as a result of a bad split-second decision.
I refuse to second guess those decisions. The bad guys need to lay off the drugs, lay off the burglary, lay off walking down the middle of the highway after committing a burglary, need to keep their hands out of a police car, and on and on.
A certain part of our society is too stupid to even waste a minute listening to. The only proper response to them is to tell them to stfd and stfu.
Posted by: Ugg Boots at December 03, 2014 07:24 PM (zxQ4h)
Even if he had not been in a chokehold, then, the coroner is saying that grappling with him prone on the sidewalk helped kill him.
I don't think a jury is going to say cops are forbidden to take a guy prone to the pavement in order to cuff him.
Posted by: Chris_Balsz at December 03, 2014 07:24 PM (pYEaj)
Posted by: Adriane the Technology Critic ... at December 03, 2014 07:27 PM (P+IZm)
Posted by: Jay in PA at December 03, 2014 07:28 PM (7T0u2)
Good call.
Posted by: JackStraw
So he's lying then, right?
Posted by: Jay in PA at December 03, 2014 07:29 PM (7T0u2)
I think there's an error to judge an arrest as unlawful based on moral instead of legal standards. A wrongful arrest, perhaps?
But if you are going to resist arrest, I think you need to go all the way - be willing to kill/be killed by cops. If that's not your cup of tea ... then best not resist at all and fight it in the courtroom/bureaucracy.
Posted by: Chocolate Sprinkled CM at December 03, 2014 07:30 PM (0NdlF)
He's a biased expert and thus should be checked against other expert opinions. May not be lying, but is not innately trustworthy.
Posted by: Chocolate Sprinkled CM at December 03, 2014 07:35 PM (0NdlF)
Posted by: Sven S Blade a.k.a. El Assassin@sven10077 at December 03, 2014 06:51 PM (/4AZU)>>>
Yes. I am not disputing that. I am (1) questioning whether or not that was said - I didn't hear it on the audio; (2) saying that the cops should use some discretion and NOT arrest someone for selling a cigarette; and (3) that moving slightly to avoid a cops is not justification for lethal force (or force that is known to have high incidences of fatalities).
Posted by: gm at December 03, 2014 07:36 PM (/kBoL)
I learned this the hard way, too.
Posted by: GGE of the Moron Horde, NC Chapter at December 03, 2014 07:38 PM (6fyGz)
"oh look it's ok...yeah I was serving you a summons or interviewing you while out on bail for assault but you know what you just go on ahead and have a snickers...you just aren't yourself when you're hungry so go walk it off champ"
//Shit I've never heard from a cop
Posted by: Sven S Blade a.k.a. El Assassin@sven10077 at December 03, 2014 07:39 PM (/4AZU)
But if you are going to resist arrest, I think you need to go all the way - be willing to kill/be killed by cops. If that's not your cup of tea ... then best not resist at all and fight it in the courtroom/bureaucracy.
Posted by: Chocolate Sprinkled CM at December 03, 2014 07:30 PM (0NdlF)>>>
1. I wouldn't say that the arrest was unlawful, simply that it was abusive. An abuse of government power to have this law on the books and an abuse of discretion for the cops to attempt to exercise an arrest based on it.
2. Agreed. Absent a willingness to go full on insurrection, you have to comply or the cops will kill you. That's what the power to arrest is - a power to kill you if you don't comply. Seems a bit extreme for selling cigarettes.
Posted by: gm at December 03, 2014 07:39 PM (/kBoL)
Posted by: Huggy at December 03, 2014 07:40 PM (PGh+Q)
Posted by: GGE of the Moron Horde, NC Chapter at December 03, 2014 07:40 PM (6fyGz)
//Shit I've never heard from a cop
Posted by: Sven S Blade a.k.a. El Assassin@sven10077 at December 03, 2014 07:39 PM (/4AZU)>>>
What the fuck are you talking about? Did a cop put a choke hold on you on your way to the computer and cut of the flow of oxygen/blood to your brain?
Posted by: gm at December 03, 2014 07:41 PM (/kBoL)
Posted by: GGE of the Moron Horde, NC Chapter at December 03, 2014 07:40 PM (6fyGz)>>>
Not really. Once you're arrested, you're pretty much fucked because 90% of cases end in plea bargain after prosecutors threaten you with life in prison or some such for selling a cigarette.
Posted by: gm at December 03, 2014 07:43 PM (/kBoL)
Getting killed over cigarettes is certainly overboard. But getting killed for resisting arrest is not.
Ace has already covered this point. He agrees it's absurd - but it's also absurd to send cops out to enforce the laws on the books and then complain when they do.
Posted by: Chocolate Sprinkled CM at December 03, 2014 07:44 PM (0NdlF)
Not really. Once you're arrested, you're pretty much fucked because 90% of cases end in plea bargain after prosecutors threaten you with life in prison or some such for selling a cigarette.
Resisting arrest doesn't change the outcome here. Unless you plan to kill the cops, kill reinforcements, and survive long enough for society to decide it's on your side.
Posted by: Chocolate Sprinkled CM at December 03, 2014 07:46 PM (0NdlF)
Posted by: ace at December 03, 2014 05:29 PM (/FnUH)
Gotta respectfully disagree. A minority of them (ca. 30%) voted for hope and change, and owing to the excessively democratic parliamentary democracy of the Weimar Republic, they got a lot more than they bargained for. Plus, the alternative at the time was ... the Communists, who were bidding fair to overthrow the government.
After gaining power, Hitler quickly (with a month) consolidated it, and there was no stopping him then. German society was in the position of electing a pilot who chose to crash the plane.
Posted by: Jay Guevara at December 03, 2014 07:47 PM (oKE6c)
Posted by: gm at December 03, 2014 07:48 PM (/kBoL)
The guy had 31 arrests and was under investigation for an act of violence from what I've gathered...
I've learned in this thread that LE should just tell the perp "hey you know what wander around and sort it the fuck out...we'll chill out here and drink some bottled water looking indifferent."
I am against what THIS cop did, but I am MORE against the troubling pattern where black males think the law is a multiple choice exercise as 1st resort.
Take your pinch like a pro or deal with the blowback that can include "up to death."
This emo horsefuckery the Communi-tay gets to engage in and then have tacit approval to burn Ferguson down without NG intervention is bullshit.
MO LE has a lot of nifty Kung-Fu grip Ninja Mil-Spec gear it did not use for wanton and openly planned riots...
b/c their political class jerks off to killing Republicans with that gear not their voters.
The perp was killed by extra-proccedural Rex Kan Do Bullshido martial arts in all likelihood but the perp was begging for a confrontation.
Posted by: Sven S Blade a.k.a. El Assassin@sven10077 at December 03, 2014 07:48 PM (/4AZU)
Posted by: Chocolate Sprinkled CM at December 03, 2014 07:46 PM (0NdlF)>>>
Not disagreeing with you. Just saying that you don't win either way. Arrested? You lose. Resist arrest? You lose. Either way, welcome to You're Fucked Land.
Posted by: gm at December 03, 2014 07:49 PM (/kBoL)
Well since they are such fans of destroying doctor's earning potential maybe we need "universal flat rate lawyer"?
People plea b/c you go bankrupt fighting, and I for one would LOVE hearing lawyers explain how morally they deserve big days more than MDs.
Posted by: Sven S Blade a.k.a. El Assassin@sven10077 at December 03, 2014 07:53 PM (/4AZU)
and NOT arrest someone for selling a cigarette
Posted by: gm at December 03, 2014 07:36 PM (/kBoL)
Look, I'm gonna withhold judgement on this until more is known about how the GJ came to their conclusion, but I'm with Ace on this point at least: the cops are their to arrest law breakers. If you want selling "loosies" to be a citation-level offense, I'm cool with that. I would actually support that. But the fact is that, as of right now, it's not. Making the argument that "the cops shouldn't have tried to arrest him" makes you sound emotional and not rational. You can make a stronger case without going there.
Posted by: holygoat at December 03, 2014 07:54 PM (yPB9S)
..
I am against what THIS cop did, but I am MORE against the troubling pattern where black males think the law is a multiple choice exercise as 1st resort.
Posted by: Sven S Blade a.k.a. El Assassin@sven10077 at December 03, 2014 07:48 PM (/4AZU)>>>
I prefer not to give either the government or career criminals the benefit of the doubt and let the facts of each case speak for themselves.
But, I'd say that the number of arrests isn't really germane in that they were arresting him for selling a cigarette. If his jacket warranted him being in prison, that's where he should have been to begin with, not on the street.
Posted by: gm at December 03, 2014 07:54 PM (/kBoL)
Posted by: holygoat at December 03, 2014 07:54 PM (yPB9S)>>>
Cops exercise discretion in which laws to enforce and not enforce every day. This is a stupid law that they should go out of their way to avoid enforcing. I bet they don't even know what half of the laws that they're supposed to be enforcing even are. Cop sees a guy selling a cigarette, he should look the other way, just like he does when he sees a guy doing 26 mph in a 25 mph zone. How this position is "emotional" or "not rational" is beyond me.
Posted by: gm at December 03, 2014 07:58 PM (/kBoL)
There is losing less badly, and there is not dying from complications during a forceful arrest.
Posted by: Chocolate Sprinkled CM at December 03, 2014 07:59 PM (0NdlF)
You get "known" to the force champ...
and he was not busted for loosies he was under investigation for assault.
He also said "this ends today" while resisting arrest....
I am not going to fill a canal with my tears for this idiot.
Posted by: Sven S Blade a.k.a. El Assassin@sven10077 at December 03, 2014 08:01 PM (/4AZU)
Cops exercise discretion in which laws to enforce and not enforce every day. This is a stupid law that they should go out of their way to avoid enforcing.
Posted by: gm at December 03, 2014 07:58 PM (/kBoL)
Somebody early in the thread said it's not even a law, but an FDA regulation. If true, that brings us back to out-of-control government.
Posted by: rickl at December 03, 2014 08:03 PM (sdi6R)
People plea b/c you go bankrupt fighting, and I for one would LOVE hearing lawyers explain how morally they deserve big days more than MDs.
Posted by: Sven S Blade a.k.a. El Assassin@sven10077 at December 03, 2014 07:53 PM (/4AZU)>>>
How do I love destroying doctors' earning potential??
Anyway, people plea because prosecutors afraid of losing say that they're going to prosecute you for a major felony (including a slate of lesser charges of course so they can't lose) unless you cop to a minor felony/misdemeanor. You're simply not going to run even a small risk of having to do the hard time associated with the major felony, especially when they are offering you a plea to the least of the slate of offenses they plan to charge you with. It's a strong arm tactic.
Posted by: gm at December 03, 2014 08:03 PM (/kBoL)
Lawyers trend heavily democrat, I think JDs should get to work 96 hour weeks for less than a half mill defending their political allies....
Hell force JDs to endure 15 years Pro Bono...
"a great defense"
Posted by: Sven S Blade a.k.a. El Assassin@sven10077 at December 03, 2014 08:06 PM (/4AZU)
1 there was a choke hold
2 no, there wasn't a choke hold, it was a headlock
3 oh no, it wasn't an AIRWAY chokehold it was a CIRCULATORY choke hold
4 choke holds are illegal
5 choke holds aren't illegal, just against department policy
6 he was arrested for cigarettes
7 no, wait, he was arrested for a fight he was in
8 it doesn't matter what he was being arrested for, what matters is the resisting arrest
9 oh yeah, this happened way back last summer.
So yeah, probably best to wait and see what the actual facts are rather than try to debate it on the internetz.
Posted by: GGE of the Moron Horde, NC Chapter at December 03, 2014 08:07 PM (6fyGz)
Posted by: Chocolate Sprinkled CM at December 03, 2014 07:59 PM (0NdlF)>>>
Yes. That is agreed. But you mentioned "winning." I don't see any winning when you're dealing with the government (unless you're one of its cronies).
Posted by: gm at December 03, 2014 08:11 PM (/kBoL)
Posted by: Chocolate Sprinkled CM at December 03, 2014 08:17 PM (0NdlF)
Posted by: gm at December 03, 2014 07:58 PM (/kBoL"
What's your line for ignoring laws as a cop? I'm going to assume it's different that the line that I would draw, or Mayor DeBlasio would draw. Do you see where this becomes problematic?
Seriously, if your go-to argument for a guy dying during an attempted legitimate arrest is that the cops should be ignoring that particular law, you're not making a compelling case. And in this instance, there are stronger arguments to be made against the cop, anyway. Stick to those.
Posted by: holygoat at December 03, 2014 08:34 PM (yPB9S)
Ace, I have to be one of Those Mean Bad Men conservatives, though. Why is his death a tragedy?
I'm not making this point on the technicality of what tragedy "really means", but on the colloquial level that people normally use.
Eric Garner was a career criminal. Fresh out on bail for the same charges which he was about to be arrested for again. He was also resisting arrest in an increasingly aggressive (physical) fashion.
Sorry, but it's gg right there, and not much else matters.
The tragedy with Garner, Trayvon, or Brown, is that to a very unfortunate degree they are quintessentially Black, and not unique. They're the *tragic* manifestation of every Leftist policy and Leftist thought perversion that White Democrats have been poisoning black Americans with in tandem with professional race pushers like Al Sharpton.
It's true that the Republican party has a huge opportunity to make a sincere appeal to blacks who want what White Democrats have ripped from them for decades: employment, education, family, equal treatment.
Unless Rand Paul is pushing a Trojan Horse strategy in the early game, we shouldn't hold our breath for that, though....
Posted by: The Chessman at December 03, 2014 09:16 PM (onAaL)
Posted by: gp at December 03, 2014 09:24 PM (mk9aG)
Posted by: Montjoie at December 03, 2014 09:30 PM (sBpR/)
Posted by: Montjoie
Huh. Didn't know you could speak coherently with a crushed windpipe.
Posted by: Dang at December 03, 2014 09:44 PM (MNq6o)
Posted by: gp
You're beginning to understand exactly what they want.
Posted by: Dang at December 03, 2014 09:46 PM (MNq6o)
Yep. And those situations increase dramatically when the cops put you in a choke hold. There's a reason that police policy forbids this restraining technique. The cop is guilty of breaking a police policy that resulted in the death of a perp. I'd say that's manslaughter.
Posted by: Gault Falcon at December 03, 2014 10:11 PM (Ic4G9)
Yeah this times a million. Since when did mindless obedience to government authority become Teh cool thing amongst the Right?
Blind obedience to authority has ALWAYS been a cool thing amongst a group of Republicans on this board - as long as either;
1) They are current / former members of said authority, or relatives of same.
2) They approve of the current actions of said Authority.
The
notion that said Authority could turn on them is totally fucking lost
on most of this crowd. But they'll mock the Left all day for the same
blindness."
A-fucking-men.
Jesus Tits, since when is blind fucking authority to government a conservative thing?
Posted by: thirteen28 at December 03, 2014 11:18 PM (Dm9G5)
Posted by: thirteen28 at December 03, 2014 11:20 PM (Dm9G5)
The problem occurred when he resisted arrest, that is why he died, he refused to be arrested.
It is not a racial issue. It could have been any race, the real problem is the underlying crime was so minor and the guy ended up dead.
And apparently, I, along with others didn't fully understand what the word homicide meant.
But as far as I can tell from the video and commentary, the cops followed the law.
The message I got was... don't resist arrest, the cops might accidentally kill you.
Cops are allowed to subdue and arrest an unwilling suspect. They just are.
But I'm still so mad over the riots in Ferguson, I may be calloused to the feigned outrage of blacks right now.
I have been lied too. and I don't like it.
Posted by: petunia at December 03, 2014 11:32 PM (M1eBo)
1) He resisted arrest, multiple times, verbally -- in addition to the primary wrong of not complying with a police officer.
2) He then physically resisted arrest, escalating his resisting of arrest from verbal to physical, while showing no signs of compliance.
A 400lb criminal was then subdued by multiple police officers. He was not choked unconscious, he was choked into submission.
Don't be a career criminal. Don't get let out, and continue to commit crimes. Don't resist arrest, don't physically resist arrest.
Posted by: The Chessman at December 04, 2014 12:18 AM (X/0Bt)
http://tinyurl.com/o4zg53w
Look at the blade of his left forearm against the throat, and the right hand is pulling on the left hand for extra force.
That's a choke, not a "seatbelt hold".
This is a seatbelt hold
http://tinyurl.com/mprzg5l
Posted by: Roadrunner at December 04, 2014 12:52 AM (nWv04)
It's against their own regulations/rules to not chokehold people because people CAN DIE.
Not only did they BREAK THEIR OWN RULES, the medics stood around like retards too.
If a citizen does the same thing, they're getting 25 to life or whatever it may be in that State.
If you want police to stop acting like they're above the law, you need to start holding them to it.
Posted by: Matt at December 04, 2014 01:04 AM (WJ9lQ)
Posted by: doug at December 04, 2014 02:09 AM (uJ8q7)
Yeah, Ace - I'm with you most of the time, but not even close on this one. The guy is laying there repeatedly saying he can't breathe, and they remain on top of him with a choke hold on.
I'm glad Darren Wilson wasn't indicted in Ferguson, and my brother is a career police officer and SWAT team
leader, so I sympathize with the tough and dangerous jobs we ask cops to do everyday. But someone has to be charged and tried in Eric Garner's death. This one is patently over the line. You've gotta be pretty barbaric to go laying on and choking a guy who's telling you in the moment that he can't breathe.
Posted by: Brandon at December 04, 2014 07:08 AM (A4Yla)
That the police used excessive force in this situation is beyond question.
Posted by: DisgrAce of Spades at December 04, 2014 08:47 AM (nlQae)
Posted by: Gomer Pyle at December 04, 2014 10:13 AM (Y92Nd)
Amen. As for "root causes" look to the Obama apparatchiks that want to make everything a crime. Some day soon, someone will die for refusing to put the calorie count on his menu.
Another interesting factoid: more whites than blacks killed by cops.
http://tinyurl.com/m9cjpsj
Posted by: PJ at December 04, 2014 11:28 AM (cHuNI)
I don't reject the second option, because that's all what a True Con does.
Posted by: Shoot Me at December 04, 2014 11:56 AM (EQcfE)
Posted by: Motorheas at December 04, 2014 12:10 PM (jc4t8)
Posted by: PJ at December 04, 2014 12:19 PM (cHuNI)
So tired of this stupid question. No one deserves to be shot to death, that's why we don't sentence people to death by firing squad.
What someone "deserves" isn't always what has to be done to prevent something worse from happening.
Posted by: TallDave at December 04, 2014 02:14 PM (/s1LA)
Brown broke the non-race based rule of "don't attack a cop". The breakage of which comes with a minimum a$$whoopin penalty to a maximum capital punishment. If anyone doubts this, try it and see how it works out for you. It would get rid of a lot of the doubters.
Garner, if we can believe the video, was not trying to attack. If handled with some relative courtesy, maybe a citation, he would not have died as a result of an acute case of cop thugscrum.
or Brown=expected | Garner=bad
Posted by: ResistanceIsFutile at December 04, 2014 02:19 PM (XibIz)
Dissent all you want, but that's BS.
Posted by: ericinva at December 04, 2014 02:50 PM (xm1A1)
Magic Kingdom
Posted by: Magic Kingdom at December 04, 2014 04:58 PM (zrpm5)
Posted by: www.RegModels.ru at December 07, 2014 09:02 PM (fT+zR)
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