Support




Contact
Ace:
aceofspadeshq at gee mail.com
CBD:
cbd.aoshq at gee mail.com
Buck:
buck.throckmorton at protonmail.com
joe mannix:
mannix2024 at proton.me
MisHum:
petmorons at gee mail.com
Powered by
Movable Type





The Arc Of Turkey's Descent Into Islamic, Third-World Madness

Daniel Pipes has an encyclopedic knowledge of the Arab and Muslim world, so his short histories of issues are always a worthwhile read.

His political analysis however tends to be slipshod, as he is overly fond of his own basic premise that militant Islam can be moderated and, as he demonstrates here, glossies over some really big events. Oh, and he is part of the moderate wing of the NeverTrumpers, although he hides it well.

Erdoğan's Turkish Delight: The Dangerous Reign of Ankara's Corrupt President

Recep Tayyip Erdoğan's rule over Turkey began in March 2003 and divides precisely into two eras.

In the first half, which lasted 8 years and 4 months, he was brilliant. He oversaw unprecedented economic growth and regional influence. He tackled long-festering problems, such as the Kurdish issue, while discreetly handling his military overlords. His string of successes culminated in July 2011 with an assertion of control of the military, an accomplishment that had eluded all of his predecessors.

And then he reverted to type...The type that has dominated the Muslim world since...oh...Mohamed. The egomaniacal despot who is obsessed with his own position on the world stage.

But what Pipes minimizes is a profound change in Turkey, and that is the destruction of the checks and balances that its modern founder, Mustafa Kemal Atatürk created; a strong, secular military establishment to prevent the worst excesses of Islamism. Erdoğan managed to destroy that balance, and set the table for Turkey's return to Islamic dictatorship.

Regardless, it is an interesting article that describes the path from popularly elected leader to dictator. Turkey is a regional power, and one that is currently our de facto enemy. It is an excellent example of the failure of NATO, and the fecklessness of European leadership.

Posted by: CBD at 02:30 PM




Comments

(Jump to bottom of comments)

1 First.

Posted by: olddog in mo, uckfay ancercay at November 17, 2019 02:34 PM (Dhht7)

2 I don't know what the solution is, but I lean towards it not involving us.

Posted by: Moron Robbie - You don't stop lawlessness by obeying the law but by enforcing it at November 17, 2019 02:34 PM (Hl0hh)

3 First?

Posted by: UDM at November 17, 2019 02:35 PM (v9EIf)

4 I nooded them.

Posted by: olddog in mo, uckfay ancercay at November 17, 2019 02:35 PM (Dhht7)

5 second

Posted by: firefirefire at November 17, 2019 02:35 PM (Seb55)

6 the possibility exists that this megalomaniac will declare himself caliph of all Muslims, perhaps on the centenary of the abolition of the Istanbul-based caliphate, either on March 10, 2021 (by the Islamic calendar) or March 4, 2024 (by the Christian one).

--

That would be interesting.

Posted by: Moron Robbie - You don't stop lawlessness by obeying the law but by enforcing it at November 17, 2019 02:38 PM (Hl0hh)

7 Let me show my ignorance. Is there really a need for NATO today?

Posted by: olddog in mo, uckfay ancercay at November 17, 2019 02:39 PM (Dhht7)

8 I wonder how long Incirlik AB will be allowed to exist? It's a rather important base in a dangerous part of the world.

Posted by: Puddleglum, a new Soviet Virginian at November 17, 2019 02:40 PM (/90cp)

9 They said "nood turkey." I thought it was a food thread.

Posted by: Peaches at November 17, 2019 02:40 PM (14URa)

10 Let me show my ignorance. Is there really a need for NATO today?

--

Sure. How are those Europeans going to pay for all their free healthcare and other goodies if they have to spend their own money on protecting themselves?

Posted by: Moron Robbie - You don't stop lawlessness by obeying the law but by enforcing it at November 17, 2019 02:40 PM (Hl0hh)

11 7: No

Posted by: Puddleglum, a new Soviet Virginian at November 17, 2019 02:41 PM (/90cp)

12 Wow, and I was thinking about moving to Turkey

Posted by: REDACTED at November 17, 2019 02:41 PM (rpxSz)

13 They said "nood turkey." I thought it was a food thread

Got you here, didn't it.

Posted by: olddog in mo, uckfay ancercay at November 17, 2019 02:42 PM (Dhht7)

14 Turkey OUT of NATO. Constantinople back to Greece!

Posted by: Constantine XI at November 17, 2019 02:42 PM (yiAMj)

15 Let me show my ignorance. Is there really a need for NATO today?

Posted by: olddog in mo, uckfay ancercay at November 17, 2019 02:39 PM (Dhht7)

Oh, you stupid, backward American! I'll bet you didn't even get an undergraduate degree from Harvard...or even (shudder), Yale!

Posted by: Cap'n Kristol of the Good Ship Cuck at November 17, 2019 02:43 PM (wYseH)

16 "In the first half, which lasted 8 years and 4 months, he was brilliant."

Pretty sure I read report from observers of Turkey that warned Erdogan's performance was a facade during this period. Bigots, all!

Posted by: The Federal Reserve at November 17, 2019 02:44 PM (w+Ped)

17 14 Turkey OUT of NATO. Constantinople back to Greece!
Posted by: Constantine XI



We Will Rise Again!!

Posted by: Hittites at November 17, 2019 02:44 PM (/90cp)

18 On a smaller scale and in a shorter time frame to what we are going through here. As long as the culture supported the government system, it survived. Once enough people forgot the entire reason all of those strange (by historical standards) provisions and checks were put in place, they start endorsing some asshole who removes them and do not bat an eye.

People are stupid and evil.

Posted by: Aetius451AD at November 17, 2019 02:44 PM (ycWCI)

19 Got you here, didn't it.

Posted by: olddog in mo, uckfay ancercay at November 17, 2019 02:42 PM (Dhht7)
I thought there might be beer . . .

Posted by: Peaches at November 17, 2019 02:44 PM (14URa)

20 10 Let me show my ignorance. Is there really a need for NATO today?

--
Any entity with a cool acronym should be preserved

Posted by: IBM at November 17, 2019 02:44 PM (rpxSz)

21 Erdogan merely eliminated that check on his power in Turkey. Now he can become a typical ME dictator. The islamic flavor is just what seems to work in the ME - people accept it.

As the UniParty tries to do the same in the USA, subvert the 2nd Amendment. Then back to overt feudalism for us.

Posted by: Burnt Toast at November 17, 2019 02:45 PM (1g7ch)

22 The nood notices below promised turkey. I thought, hey, Food Thread, getting prepped for the big day, etc.

Surprise!

Posted by: Duncanthrax The Austere at November 17, 2019 02:46 PM (DMUuz)

23 Oh, you stupid, backward American! I'll bet you didn't even get an undergraduate degree from Harvard...or even (shudder), Yale!

Posted by: Cap'n Kristol of the Good Ship Cuck

-----------------

No, but I did stay in a Holiday Inn Express once.

Posted by: olddog in mo, uckfay ancercay at November 17, 2019 02:46 PM (Dhht7)

24
Let me show my ignorance. Is there really a need for NATO today?

Yes

Posted by: Lockheed, Boeing, Raytheon, General Dynamics, Northrop Grumman at November 17, 2019 02:47 PM (aKsyK)

25 When was Erdogan ever brilliant or even beneficial?
The first thing that surprised me about him was the degree of Islamism he got away with imposing. (The army overthrew his predecessor for trying to legalize head-scarves.)
Why in hell hasn't Trump dumped him out of NATO yet? Turkey took the Russian side in the invasion of Georgia and would not help us in the second Iraq war -- and supports Hamas -- so we've known pretty much since he was elected that he is not America's friend.

Posted by: jdgalt at November 17, 2019 02:48 PM (3SFo/)

26 De facto enemy? Hmmm/meh. How? Problem, PITA, etc, yeah obviously.


The Iranian regime is an enemy [actually the worst, and longest-standing, 4O years almost to the week].


Maybe semantic issue, but Turkey today is much more a typical current mixed bag than an enemy. If they don't abet Iran materially, they don't pose much threat to our interests.


NATO has been an inertial relic of a wildly successful alliance, looking for a rationale, for a long time. And a separate issue [though Turkey as a member is arguably a legit argument-within-an-argument about NATO's irrelevance today]. Though in a way Turkey may be a "model" for how NATO, in practice, operates - we share some objectives, oppose them on others, make deals as we go. Not at all an alliance as founded, but maybe a useful mechanism for ongoing bilateral stuff.

Posted by: rhomboid at November 17, 2019 02:48 PM (QDnY+)

27 I am very much a stupid, backward American.

I also deeply believe in the idea that a moron posted a few months ago that if it takes you more than 30 seconds to explain something then that something is probably bullsh*t and I should listen with that in mind.

Posted by: Moron Robbie is a Proud Black Woman - my word as a Biden at November 17, 2019 02:48 PM (0GvUH)

28 They said "nood turkey." I thought it was a food thread.
Posted by: Peaches
------

I was afraid it was Adam Schiff.

How are you, ma'am?

Posted by: Mike Hammer, etc., etc. at November 17, 2019 02:49 PM (CDGwz)

29 Lockheed, Boeing, Raytheon, General Dynamics, Northrop Grumman at November 17, 2019 02:47 PM

I seem to remember mentioning y'all at one point.

Posted by: D. D. Eisenhower at November 17, 2019 02:50 PM (DMUuz)

30 I don't want anything to do with the middle east, let them sort it out. The idea we can guide this is foolish. Even the "not terrible" ones are evil. Saudi Arabia had a big hand in 9/11, and that' supposed to be a strong ally.

I have to say I even like the idea of going to electric cars just to watch the middle east lose their trillions in fossil fuels. It would probably be cheaper than what we spend policing that region if we just moved the tech up a few years. I don't give a shit about the global warming lie, it would just be nice to watch these assholes have no source of income.

Posted by: Blago at November 17, 2019 02:50 PM (sjTfF)

31 Let me show my ignorance. Is there really a need for NATO today?
Posted by: olddog in mo, uckfay ancercay at November 17, 2019 02:39 PM (Dhht7)

Absolutely not. Just another drain on the US taxpayer by the Massa Youknowurmybitchs of the world to keep the gravy train rolling.

Once the Warsaw Pact went belly up, NATO should have gone away too.

Just like SEATO. Close it down.

Posted by: Hairyback Guy at November 17, 2019 02:50 PM (Z+IKu)

32 >>Let me show my ignorance. Is there really a need for NATO today?

Yes

Posted by: O-6 checking boxes for promotion at November 17, 2019 02:50 PM (2cuLk)

33 Ve luff der idea of NATO!

Posted by: A. Merkel und Deutschland Social Programs at November 17, 2019 02:53 PM (DMUuz)

34 i thought it was food, too.

Posted by: mjc at November 17, 2019 02:53 PM (Pg+x7)

35 i thought it was food, too.
Posted by: mjc
--------

Cannon fodder.

Posted by: Mike Hammer, etc., etc. at November 17, 2019 02:54 PM (CDGwz)

36 Why has Trump welcomed Erdogan to the US, treated him like an ally. Hard to justify this on any basis. I've liked much of what Trump has done and said, but this one leaves me completely puzzled and questioning his judgment and motives.

Posted by: CanadianGuy at November 17, 2019 02:55 PM (jB6a5)

37 Islam is all about driving the world back into the 9th century

Posted by: Skip at November 17, 2019 02:55 PM (ZCEU2)

38 Disconcerting thought.

https://bit.ly/2qnBhgb

Posted by: Anonosaurus Wrecks, Tyrannosaur Wrangler at November 17, 2019 02:57 PM (+y/Ru)

39 No, no, keep it straight.


The evil merchants of death were responsible for efforts to keep 15O special operators in northern Syria from moving a few miles [what the recent "policy change" amounted to] - I mean, the zillions in war profits from that massive operation can only be imagined.


NATO buys fairly little from us [as they don't really spend much, as you might have noticed].


It's the dozens of wars in hundreds of countries that we launched for no apparent reason that the merchants of death conspired to contrive. Or was it thousands of wars in millions of countries?



Posted by: rhomboid at November 17, 2019 02:57 PM (QDnY+)

40 We are looking at a fight to the death. Good over evil.

Posted by: Infidel at November 17, 2019 02:58 PM (8/tIV)

41 Cannon fodder.
Posted by: Mike Hammer, etc., etc. at November 17, 2019 02:54 PM


We prefer to call them crunchies.

Posted by: Track Drivers at November 17, 2019 02:58 PM (DMUuz)

42 ... it's called a "turkey" because people thought the birds resembled guineafowl traded by turks. in turkey the bird is called a "hindi" because the turks thought columbus landed in india and found them there.

(via wikipedia)

Posted by: mjc at November 17, 2019 02:59 PM (Pg+x7)

43 A good book ( and should reread it) is History of Jihad, Mo to ISIS, it leaves no doubt it's true goal.

Posted by: Skip at November 17, 2019 03:00 PM (ZCEU2)

44 ... and in portugal they are called "peru" because it was thought they come from peru.

turkeys sure are stupid - they don't even know where they're from!

Posted by: mjc at November 17, 2019 03:02 PM (Pg+x7)

45 Why is Trump welcoming Erdogan? Because any chance of him being removed from power by international pressure went out the window after the 2016 coup attempt. Instead of the western world siding with Erdogan then, they should have highlighted why a portion of the military wanted to remove him. We didn't have to approve of the coup but we didn't have to fully support Erdogan either. But just like everything else the Obama Administration did back then, it made things worse.

Posted by: lowandslow at November 17, 2019 03:02 PM (4thlk)

46 Zod claims this thread for Allah, PBUH.

Posted by: Zod at November 17, 2019 03:02 PM (XzT/D)

47 46 Zod claims this thread for Allah, PBUH.
Posted by: Zod at November 17, 2019 03:02 PM (XzT/D)

Wait, Zod or Allah? Neither seem particularly interested in 'Peace'.

Posted by: Aetius451AD at November 17, 2019 03:03 PM (ycWCI)

48 I suspect NATO is appreciated in the same way everyone likes Ukraine.

Posted by: Moron Robbie is a Proud Black Woman - my word as a Biden at November 17, 2019 03:05 PM (0GvUH)

49 I remember warnings about Erdogan when I still read the economist and I stopped reading it around 2000.

Pipes says things started to go wrong when Erdogan got control of the military, being the first leader since Ataturk to do this.

Well Doh!!!

Posted by: Enquiring Minds Want to Know at November 17, 2019 03:05 PM (XzVUd)

50 >>Wait, Zod or Allah? Neither seem particularly interested in 'Peace'. Posted by: Aetius451AD at November 17, 2019 03:03 PM (ycWCI)

Confounded impertinence!

Posted by: Zod at November 17, 2019 03:06 PM (XzT/D)

51 36
Why has Trump welcomed Erdogan to the US


Why has he welcomed Xi ... think a little.

Posted by: Off the reservation at November 17, 2019 03:07 PM (XzVUd)

52 Pipes says things started to go wrong when Erdogan got control of the military, being the first leader since Ataturk to do this.

Well Doh!!!

Posted by: Enquiring Minds Want to Know at November 17, 2019 03:05 PM (XzVUd)

'Things first started to go wrong when Warren succeeded in eliminating the second amendment.'

It is not the actual act that gets you, it is the ability of people hostile to the system to even become a part of the system.

Posted by: Aetius451AD at November 17, 2019 03:07 PM (ycWCI)

53 Confounded impertinence!
Posted by: Zod at November 17, 2019 03:06 PM (XzT/D)

Always.

Posted by: Aetius451AD at November 17, 2019 03:08 PM (ycWCI)

54 14
Turkey OUT of NATO. Constantinople back to Greece!


Need to get the nukes out of Turkey first.

Posted by: Off the reservation at November 17, 2019 03:08 PM (XzVUd)

55 Southern UK Treaty Organization.

Posted by: klaftern at November 17, 2019 03:10 PM (RuIsu)

56 Blago,

Those electric cars ain't going to charge themselves and a grid charged by 'renewables' can't begin to support a 1st world economy, let alone support a transportation system.

The ME would still find a market for their oil.

Posted by: parker at November 17, 2019 03:10 PM (kO3Bf)

57 http://bit.ly/2pv9YjQ
*******
HORRIBLE! Never-Trumper PISS Wallace Lies about Tim Morrison's Testimony on FOX News Sunday (VIDEO)

Posted by: Deep State is in Deep Shit at November 17, 2019 03:10 PM (BqBId)

58 They said "nood turkey." I thought it was a food thread.
Posted by: Peaches

Same here.

Posted by: JT at November 17, 2019 03:11 PM (arJlL)

59 Zod claims this thread for Allah, PBUH.
Posted by: Zod at November 17, 2019 03:02 PM


This comment is evil in its imposition of harmful and hurtful gender stereotypes, and is evidence of the caliginous Commenter's patriarchal bias.

Transexistiantial beings may wish to reject the socially constructed gender assignments entirely, and self-reassign to one of the 89+ other genders that the human cisheteropatriarchy brutally represses. Who are we to say?

Posted by: Duncanthrax The Austere at November 17, 2019 03:11 PM (DMUuz)

60 >>Turkey OUT of NATO. Constantinople back to Greece!

Time for some realpolitik. Inform NATO that if it does not attack and destroy Turkey immediately, we will nuke Paris, Berlin, and London.

Do it. Do it now.

Posted by: Zod at November 17, 2019 03:11 PM (XzT/D)

61 Why has Trump welcomed Erdogan to the US, treated him like an ally. Hard to justify this on any basis. I've liked much of what Trump has done and said, but this one leaves me completely puzzled and questioning his judgment and motives.
Posted by: CanadianGuy
---------

Well, he's rubbed shoulders with Kim Jong-un and Xi Jinping also. Perhaps *they* are puzzled too. 'Keep your friends close, and your enemies closer'.

I see no sign, except for superficialities, that Trump is in any way wobbly.

Posted by: Mike Hammer, etc., etc. at November 17, 2019 03:11 PM (xSo9G)

62 Southern UK Treaty Organization.

Posted by: klaftern at November 17, 2019 03:10 PM



SUKTO? Yesss!

Posted by: Marv Albert at November 17, 2019 03:14 PM (786Ro)

63 Continued from 45.



Now Trump needs to work with Erdogan so we can start disengaging ourselves from the Syria fiasco. We need to work with Erdogan to try and limit Iran from gaining influence. We need to welcome and work with Erdogan for the same reasons we do it for Putan, Jong Un and Xi. To maintain a somewhat stable global atmosphere where we can implement some changes that are favorable to us economically.




Posted by: lowandslow at November 17, 2019 03:15 PM (4thlk)

64 I see no sign, except for superficialities, that Trump is in any way wobbly.

Ya won't find HIS prints on a bollard.

Posted by: JT at November 17, 2019 03:15 PM (arJlL)

65 Turkey out of NATO? How about USA out of NATO?

Posted by: Hands at November 17, 2019 03:16 PM (786Ro)

66 61 Why has Trump welcomed Erdogan to the US, treated him like an ally. Hard to justify this on any basis. I've liked much of what Trump has done and said, but this one leaves me completely puzzled and questioning his judgment and motives.
Posted by: CanadianGuy

so you never have shaken hands with anyone you don't care for ?

been polite to someone you abhor ?

Cost a lot, huh ?

lost sleep over it ?

kant even

Posted by: REDACTED at November 17, 2019 03:16 PM (rpxSz)

67 60 >>Turkey OUT of NATO. Constantinople back to Greece!

Time for some realpolitik. Inform NATO that if it does not attack and destroy Turkey immediately, we will nuke Paris, Berlin, and London.

Do it. Do it now.
Posted by: Zod



Finally, a sensible proposition.

Posted by: Puddleglum, a new Soviet Virginian at November 17, 2019 03:17 PM (/90cp)

68 kant even
Posted by: REDACTED at November 17, 2019 03:16 PM


Especially when they camus over uninvited?

Posted by: Duncanthrax The Austere at November 17, 2019 03:17 PM (DMUuz)

69 >>66 61 Why has Trump welcomed Erdogan to the US, treated him like an ally. Posted by: CanadianGuy

He'd probably have gained more by treating Erdogan like an enemy. Because [ ].

Posted by: Zod at November 17, 2019 03:18 PM (XzT/D)

70 Finally, a sensible proposition.
Posted by: Puddleglum, a new Soviet Virginian at November 17, 2019 03:17 PM (/90cp)


Zod's restraint is admirable

Posted by: REDACTED at November 17, 2019 03:19 PM (rpxSz)

71 Finally was able to read AG Barr's magnificent speech to the Federalist Society from earlier this week - now linked by Glenn Reynolds over at his site- what a fantastic tribute to why the Executive Branch was created and needs to be protected from encroachment from Lefties and the judiciary.

All Horde should read this speech - if only because it encapsulates why Trump supporters are outraged and gives this outrage the robust legal and required Constitutional backing it derives from...

Posted by: Boswell at November 17, 2019 03:19 PM (32YRo)

72 well, dewey stop talking to them?

Posted by: mjc at November 17, 2019 03:19 PM (Pg+x7)

73 "Turkey out of NATO? How about USA out of NATO?"



Better yet, how about the end of NATO and nations begin to take care of their own national security needs.

Posted by: lowandslow at November 17, 2019 03:21 PM (4thlk)

74 14
Turkey OUT of NATO. Constantinople back to Greece!

Posted by: Constantine XI


That's nobody's business but the Turks!

Posted by: pep at November 17, 2019 03:21 PM (T6t7i)

75 kant even
Posted by: REDACTED at November 17, 2019 03:16 PM

Especially when they camus over uninvited?
Posted by: Duncanthrax
------

What does it matter?

Posted by: Nietzsche at November 17, 2019 03:21 PM (CDGwz)

76 Grease is the word. And Turkey. Greasey turkey.

This is a food thread!

Posted by: Cicero Kaboom! Kid. at November 17, 2019 03:22 PM (Vy7tf)

77 Serving two masters

crazies are running impeachment

mod squad driving the primaries

seems quite reasonable

Posted by: REDACTED at November 17, 2019 03:23 PM (rpxSz)

78 I agree that NATO has become somewhat pointless.
Its remaining mission appears to be to defend the former Warsaw Pact countries, especially Poland and Hungary, against invasion by Russia. But since we don't have even a tenth of the forces there that we had in West Germany and its neighbors during the Cold War, *and* our supply lines in such a war would be long and vulnerable while Russia's would not, I would expect Russian troops to reach the Rhine before we even got our collective thumb out.
It would help if we withdrew the troops we now have in about 120 countries, most of which don't even affect us. And that especially goes for Africa and the Middle East (except arguably Israel). Let China try to dominate Muslim countries all day long and stack the bodies high on both sides: those powers deserve to fight each other. And it will give the Muslims an enemy they'll want to terrorize much more than they want to do it to us.
In short, it is time for Trump to give the speech that Emperor Hadrian did: the time that we can afford to dominate the world has ended, and we need to concentrate on protecting our own country for as long as we still can.

Posted by: jdgalt at November 17, 2019 03:23 PM (3SFo/)

79 how else can we sartre to have a dialogue?

Posted by: mjc at November 17, 2019 03:23 PM (Pg+x7)

80
"Feckless" and "European" are synonymous. Huge pretensions, huge failures.

Posted by: Hadrian the Seventh at November 17, 2019 03:24 PM (7rVsF)

81 This is a food thread!
Posted by: Cicero Kaboom! Kid. at November 17, 2019 03:22 PM (Vy7tf)

Hijacker spotted in terminal AOS

Posted by: REDACTED at November 17, 2019 03:24 PM (rpxSz)

82 and to hume should we talk?

Posted by: mjc at November 17, 2019 03:25 PM (Pg+x7)

83 In short, it is time for Trump to give the speech
that Emperor Hadrian did: the time that we can afford to dominate the
world has ended, and we need to concentrate on protecting our own
country for as long as we still can.


Posted by: jdgalt

I think that's part of the reason we don't get rid of NATO: it means we're on the decline (at least that's the assumption). We know how that worked out for the Romans.

Posted by: pep at November 17, 2019 03:25 PM (T6t7i)

84 Drudge: "Humans at war with apes as villagers take revenge butchering baby-eating chimps."

Apes butcher humans, eat villages, take revenge.

Posted by: Zod at November 17, 2019 03:26 PM (XzT/D)

85 >>83 In short, it is time for Trump to give the speech
that Emperor Hadrian did: the time that we can afford to dominate the world has ended, and we need to concentrate on protecting our own country for as long as we still can.

Time for Trump to give the Athenian proposition to the Melians. "We will take what we want. Those resisting us will be made to eat the bag of dicks."

Posted by: Zod at November 17, 2019 03:30 PM (XzT/D)

86 Need to get the nukes out of Turkey first.

Posted by: Off the reservation at November 17, 2019 03:08 PM (XzVUd)

Or set them off.

Posted by: Alberta Oil Peon at November 17, 2019 03:30 PM (/sgva)

87 Just a reminder that the impeachment fiasco is blowing up in the democrats face. Rasmussen had Trump at 46% on Monday before the public hearings started, he is at 50% approval today. 2 points higher than obama on the same day in his Presidency.


Also they have the generic congressional poll at 46% Republican to 45% democrat. democrats usually lead that poll by 5-6 points.

Posted by: Mr. Scott (Formerly GWS) at November 17, 2019 03:32 PM (JUOKG)

88 Time for Trump to give the Athenian proposition to
the Melians. "We will take what we want. Those resisting us will be made
to eat the bag of dicks."

Posted by: Zod


Okay, but what's the downside?

Posted by: Melians at November 17, 2019 03:32 PM (T6t7i)

89 Its remaining mission appears to be to defend the former Warsaw Pact countries, especially Poland and Hungary, against invasion by Russia.

And here I thought it was about the bureaucratic nature of a country with a 'World Reserve Currency" status. That is, diplomacy is the art of not fixing any problems but only perpetuate the problem to keep the bureaucracy in place.

The Reserve Currency status simply means that, for all intents and purposes, the budget to piss away on perpetual emplacement is endless. There are many people who have a vested interest in keeping a flow of money going in.

NATO will exist for as long as the former united States has the ability to underwrite the myriad of grifters, sinecures and bureaucrats who see their position as eternal.

Posted by: Blue Bird of F'ing Joy
Julianne Assange didn't kill himself. at November 17, 2019 03:32 PM (lD3vL)

90 78 "Its remaining mission appears to be to defend the former Warsaw Pact
countries, especially Poland and Hungary, against invasion by Russia"



I see no evidence that Russia even cares about them, but we could work that out independently with those two nations if that's something they want. Right now it seems like it's Germany that controls these European organizations in an attempt to gain more influence in the eastern bloc and the Russian border countries. Not to say that Germany is back to their old notions of controlling Europe but let's not forget history and assume they're harmless.

Posted by: lowandslow at November 17, 2019 03:36 PM (4thlk)

91 The next thread no doubt be about greese

Posted by: Skip at November 17, 2019 03:37 PM (ZCEU2)

92 2h
.@MattWhitaker46, Fmr Acting AG:

"This IG report will be probably one of the most consequential reports we've had in many years. It'll demonstrate that people took advantage of the #FISA process...Americans will be troubled by what IG is going to report"

Posted by: Deep State is in Deep Shit at November 17, 2019 03:37 PM (BqBId)

93 I think that's part of the reason we don't get rid of NATO: it means we're on the decline (at least that's the assumption). We know how that worked out for the Romans.

If the former united States is on the decline is because the culture has gone to rot; the borders are wide open; the Regulatory State has made great strides in overthrowing the government; and profound levels of debt.

Posted by: Blue Bird of F'ing Joy
Julianne Assange didn't kill himself. at November 17, 2019 03:38 PM (lD3vL)

94 Let me show my ignorance. Is there really a need for NATO today?


No.


But, there is a need for FRITO.

For dips and such.

Posted by: naturalfake at November 17, 2019 03:38 PM (9X624)

95 DSiDS- Democrats won't

Posted by: Skip at November 17, 2019 03:39 PM (ZCEU2)

96 But, there is a need for FRITO.



For dips and such.



Posted by: naturalfake


However, there is no need for BETO, because he's such a dip and such.

Posted by: Melians at November 17, 2019 03:41 PM (T6t7i)

97 PJ media - Buttaguy takes lead in Iowa poll

Posted by: Skip at November 17, 2019 03:45 PM (ZCEU2)

98 97
PJ media - Buttaguy takes lead in Iowa poll

Posted by: Skip at November 17, 2019 03:45 PM (ZCEU2)
Iowa needs to get right the fuck over itself. Nobody cares anymore.

Posted by: Peaches at November 17, 2019 03:48 PM (14URa)

99 Turks are Muslims not Arabs, and I discount Pipes because of this. The Turkish military had been the sole institutional guarantor of sectarian and Western looking government. Pipes looks on their destruction benignly.

Posted by: San Franpsycho at November 17, 2019 03:48 PM (EZebt)

100 Lime Tostito > Frito

Posted by: olddog in mo, uckfay ancercay at November 17, 2019 03:49 PM (Dhht7)

101 "Finally was able to read AG Barr's magnificent speech"

Great speech I thought... I listened to it at 1.5x normal speed, and it seemed like regular speed. Nice feature at YouTube, to speed up the videos.


What Barr did not make clear, was why he had not prosecuted Hillary for destroying evidence and her multiple other crimes. Maybe it is too late, idk. Or maybe all that is under way.


He lamented the obstruction of POTUS by congress, but imo at the root is the criminal DeepState, which has long ruled over POTUS via misinformation or perhaps kompromat or other methods of overthrow by bureaucratic countermanding. But that was not his topic ... so he made good points along the way.

Posted by: illiniwek at November 17, 2019 03:49 PM (Cus5s)

102 secular?

Posted by: mjc at November 17, 2019 03:49 PM (Pg+x7)

103 Tulsi has been dubbed a Russian stooge by the Empress, so what kind of safe, non-crazy (at least obviously so) candidate do they have?

Posted by: Aetius451AD at November 17, 2019 03:49 PM (ycWCI)

104 100 Lime Tostito > Frito
Posted by: olddog in mo, uckfay ancercay at November 17, 2019 03:49 PM (Dhht7)

Cantina Style Tostitos.

Posted by: Aetius451AD at November 17, 2019 03:50 PM (ycWCI)

105 Many think Erdogan wants to be the leader of the new caliphate, Turkey has seen themselves as suchmany times in history.

Posted by: Skip at November 17, 2019 03:51 PM (ZCEU2)

106 >>Buttaguy takes lead in Iowa poll

Putin smiles. "In Russia, those with the man-butt-sex disease are, how you say, unfortunated into a camp."

Posted by: Zod at November 17, 2019 03:54 PM (XzT/D)

107 What Barr did not make clear, was why he had not
prosecuted Hillary for destroying evidence and her multiple other
crimes. Maybe it is too late, idk. Or maybe all that is under way.


Posted by: illiniwek at November 17, 2019 03:49 PM

---

The Statute of Limitations for most non-violent Federal crimes is 5 years. He literally could not prosecute her. The DOJ knew about hillary's illegal secret server years ago. Well before john kerry became Secretary of State in 2013.

Posted by: Mr. Scott (Formerly GWS) at November 17, 2019 03:54 PM (JUOKG)

108 *non sectarian government

Posted by: San Franpsycho at November 17, 2019 03:55 PM (EZebt)

109 As we begin move into the stretch of the stretch in Iowa, please remember to pronounce my name correctly: "Comma-la!".

Thank you.

Posted by: Kamala! at November 17, 2019 03:58 PM (DMUuz)

110 Pipes looks on their destruction benignly.

Posted by: San Franpsycho at November 17, 2019 03:48 PM (EZebt)

My point exactly. It was the pivot point for the entire change in Turkey, and Pipes mentions it in passing.

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at November 17, 2019 03:58 PM (wYseH)

111 OT: Scalpers sold tickets to Kanye at Olsteen's church at $500 a pop. I seem to remember something about moneychangers in the Temple . . .

Posted by: Anonosaurus Wrecks, Tyrannosaur Wrangler at November 17, 2019 04:00 PM (+y/Ru)

112 Nood food. Not Turkey.

Posted by: olddog in mo, uckfay ancercay at November 17, 2019 04:03 PM (Dhht7)

113 Nood-les

Posted by: Cheribebe at November 17, 2019 04:03 PM (a4qVe)

114 The next thread no doubt be about greese
Posted by: Skip

Greek gooses ?

Posted by: JT at November 17, 2019 04:03 PM (arJlL)

115 Meanwhile in America, demonize, otherize and then assure your allies that only through totalitarian means will they truly be safe from those wrong thinking individuals.

Posted by: Zeno the Stoic at November 17, 2019 04:03 PM (cGlgB)

116 Frankly, there are several parallels between what has happened in Iran with what has happened in Turkey.

A modern, Western-oriented Muslim people and culture captured and radicalised by an Islamist minority.

Posted by: San Franpsycho at November 17, 2019 04:09 PM (EZebt)

117 Rome tried peaceful coexistence with Carthage. Hannibal's successful attack came as a surprise. Then the Romans mobilized and defeated Carthage, but it wasn't easy.
Should the Romans have intervened earlier to help Saguntum? It probably made no sense. The best way to learn is from experience. After the Second Punic War, Roman foreign policy became much more, let's say, proactive.

Posted by: PG at November 17, 2019 04:11 PM (iqCkn)

118 Turkey could have been a shinning example of reform that was possible to the islamic world. It instead reverted to form demonstrating it is impossible for Islam to exist with democracy or capitalism.

Posted by: I am not corey Booker at November 17, 2019 04:14 PM (Ju2mK)

119 And then he reverted to type...The type that has dominated the Muslim world since...oh...Mohamed. The egomaniacal despot who is obsessed with his own position on the world stage.

Arguably since Constantine before that and Aurelian before him. And Alexander III before both. And then we could talk about the Hittites.

It's an ancient Balkan / Anatolian disease, Sun-King-Itis. Adding Islam to that mix wasn't ever going to end well.

Posted by: boulder t'hobo at November 17, 2019 04:53 PM (ykYG2)

120 What Pipes misses is that the Military was the check on Militant Islam taking over the Government.

They had stepped in before to correct that.

Once Erdogan had taken them out of the power equation, he could show his 'true stripes', and try to recreate the Ottoman Empire.

Right now there is a three way power play going on in the Mideast, and its ethnic.

Aryans (Iran), vs Arabs (Saud and Allies), with the Turks as new players.

Throw in some western influence, and some chaos? Plus a few Russians (Syria) and Chinese (selling arms to Iran).

All for European and Japanese oil?

Trump's first instincts were correct, we need to get out of that mess. There is no way we can fix it.

Posted by: Don Quixote, Tilting at November 17, 2019 04:53 PM (NgKpN)

121 116 Frankly, there are several parallels between what has happened in Iran with what has happened in Turkey.

A modern, Western-oriented Muslim people and culture captured and radicalised by an Islamist minority.
Posted by: San Franpsycho at November 17, 2019 04:09 PM (EZebt)

Better example would be Lebanon. Once considered the banking capital of the Mid East.

It had a high tourism rate.

Then, the late 70's and early 80's hit, and chaos brought on by outside influence creating Chaos.

Posted by: Don Quixote, Tilting at November 17, 2019 04:56 PM (NgKpN)

122 http://bit.ly/2Ks8Btd
*******
Steve Bannon Says He Pushed For Alleged Whistleblower To Be Removed From National Security Council | The Daily Caller
*******
Trump has known about Eric Ciaramella since then

Posted by: Deep State is in Deep Shit at November 17, 2019 04:58 PM (BqBId)

123 "118
Turkey could have been a shinning example of reform that was possible to
the islamic world. It instead reverted to form demonstrating it is
impossible for Islam to exist with democracy or capitalism.

Posted by: I am not corey Booker at November 17, 2019 04:14 PM (Ju2mK)"
..
It's a bit more than that; Turkey demonstrates that the risk of attempting to coexist with islam is not worth the feel-good bullshit. In a decade they went from the poster child for a "modern" islamic state, to literally trucking brigades full of volunteers armed with garish pakistani gas-station cutlery to rape and dismember civilian populations.
Everybody is focused on China, but the Chinese have already figured out that they're going to get the 21st century equivalent of Uncle Joe Stalin's Blank Check of Convenience, and are acting accordingly. What they're doing on the mainland is horrific and wrong... and in 15, 20 years nobody is going to give a shit.

Posted by: lurker (the other one, but spelled with a P) at November 17, 2019 05:18 PM (67XdO)

124 Nobody gives a _ _ _ _ about the Uighurs now.

They are too involved trying to remove Trump.



Posted by: Braenyard at November 17, 2019 05:35 PM (WkaWu)

125

Turkey= Thanksgiving. deep fried Constantinople is the BEST.

Posted by: saf at November 17, 2019 05:46 PM (5IHGB)

126

"Yovanovitch" embassy was known in Ukraine as HILLARY CLINTON CAMPAIGN CENTER!
I have 5 witnesses to testify to that!
Yovanovitch planned a big party for CrookedH on Election Night.
She personally requested dismissal of 4 cases, including against Biden & Soros!"
*******

http://bit.ly/2NXDkkd

Posted by: Deep State is in Deep Shit at November 17, 2019 06:13 PM (BqBId)

127 Has anyone noted that it was the EU that got the Turkish Constitution changed to remove the military as the ultimate defender of democracy? Because it was. They told Turkey that there was no way they were getting into the Union as long as that clause existed. Turkey changed it and the Euros said LOLGF, Brah! anyway.

Posted by: Grump928(C) at November 17, 2019 06:13 PM (yQpMk)

128 Better example would be Lebanon.


Black September. All the Palestinians driven out of Jordan went there and upset the three way political balance between the Christians, the Druze, and the Arabs. The Christians started emigrating to America and soon they didn't have the numbers to fight it out and eventually had to capitulated. I think that I read once that there are more Lebanese Christians in the US now than remain in Lebanon.

Posted by: Grump928(C) at November 17, 2019 06:17 PM (yQpMk)

129 Yovanovitch planned a big party for CrookedH on Election Night.
She personally requested dismissal of 4 cases, including against Biden & Soros!"
*******

http://bit.ly/2NXDkkd

Posted by: Deep State is in Deep Shit at November 17, 2019 06:13 PM (BqBId)


Rudy Giuliani
Yovanovitch embassy was known in Ukraine as HILLARY CLINTON CAMPAIGN CENTER

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JgxndNdHj50

Posted by: Braenyard at November 17, 2019 06:19 PM (WkaWu)

130 http://bit.ly/2qXAjHI
*******
HOLY SHIT !!! San Fran Nan has lost that LOON Kathy Areu

Posted by: Deep State is in Deep Shit at November 17, 2019 06:22 PM (BqBId)

131 John Solomon claims Obama, Brennan and Lynch Involved in Spygate

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ngLYrqzQGwg&feature=youtu.be

Posted by: Braenyard at November 17, 2019 06:52 PM (WkaWu)

132 Sec State Clinton gets uppity with student in S Africa

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xIVYRYVB5b8

Posted by: Way Back Machine at November 17, 2019 06:58 PM (WkaWu)

133 Should the Romans have intervened earlier to help Saguntum? It probably made no sense. The best way to learn is from experience. After the Second Punic War, Roman foreign policy became much more, let's say, proactive.

Posted by: PG

Rome's early philosophy was in favor of absorbing outlying provinces vs conquering as that spent less on the Republic treasury. This proved successful in cultures that had no running water plumbing or civil engineering that Rome had. Later, when the "barbarians" resisted these modern improvements of life, force became necessary - and thus the world went into decline.
Thanks for nothing, you barbaric Visigoths!

Posted by: Boswell at November 17, 2019 06:59 PM (32YRo)

134 Excellent.

Posted by: Chouinard at November 17, 2019 07:12 PM (ua1m6)

135 This is why I've always stated that, if you aren't prepping, you will be dead in 10 years. And if you don't teach your children to prep, you are a child abuser.

Posted by: Jonah Kyle at November 17, 2019 08:10 PM (SH7Tr)

136 NATO will exist for as long as the former united States has the ability
to underwrite the myriad of grifters, sinecures and bureaucrats who see
their position as eternal.

DING! DING! DING!!

Posted by: Capitan Obvious at November 17, 2019 08:28 PM (tdyjx)

Posted by: Braenyard at November 17, 2019 08:47 PM (WkaWu)

(Jump to top of page)






Processing 0.02, elapsed 0.0288 seconds.
14 queries taking 0.0084 seconds, 145 records returned.
Page size 82 kb.
Powered by Minx 0.8 beta.



MuNuvians
MeeNuvians
Polls! Polls! Polls!

Real Clear Politics
Gallup
Frequently Asked Questions
The (Almost) Complete Paul Anka Integrity Kick
Top Top Tens
Greatest Hitjobs

The Ace of Spades HQ Sex-for-Money Skankathon
A D&D Guide to the Democratic Candidates
Margaret Cho: Just Not Funny
More Margaret Cho Abuse
Margaret Cho: Still Not Funny
Iraqi Prisoner Claims He Was Raped... By Woman
Wonkette Announces "Morning Zoo" Format
John Kerry's "Plan" Causes Surrender of Moqtada al-Sadr's Militia
World Muslim Leaders Apologize for Nick Berg's Beheading
Michael Moore Goes on Lunchtime Manhattan Death-Spree
Milestone: Oliver Willis Posts 400th "Fake News Article" Referencing Britney Spears
Liberal Economists Rue a "New Decade of Greed"
Artificial Insouciance: Maureen Dowd's Word Processor Revolts Against Her Numbing Imbecility
Intelligence Officials Eye Blogs for Tips
They Done Found Us Out, Cletus: Intrepid Internet Detective Figures Out Our Master Plan
Shock: Josh Marshall Almost Mentions Sarin Discovery in Iraq
Leather-Clad Biker Freaks Terrorize Australian Town
When Clinton Was President, Torture Was Cool
What Wonkette Means When She Explains What Tina Brown Means
Wonkette's Stand-Up Act
Wankette HQ Gay-Rumors Du Jour
Here's What's Bugging Me: Goose and Slider
My Own Micah Wright Style Confession of Dishonesty
Outraged "Conservatives" React to the FMA
An On-Line Impression of Dennis Miller Having Sex with a Kodiak Bear
The Story the Rightwing Media Refuses to Report!
Our Lunch with David "Glengarry Glen Ross" Mamet
The House of Love: Paul Krugman
A Michael Moore Mystery (TM)
The Dowd-O-Matic!
Liberal Consistency and Other Myths
Kepler's Laws of Liberal Media Bias
John Kerry-- The Splunge! Candidate
"Divisive" Politics & "Attacks on Patriotism" (very long)
The Donkey ("The Raven" parody)
News/Chat