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The Ukraine Was a Test Case of American Foreign Policy Moralism Vs. American Foreign Policy Realism, and Realism Won in a Rout
The basic tension in US foreign policy theorizing is between moralism and realism. Moralism is an idealistic position that urges that we bear any burden in support of liberty. Realism is a far less idealistic position that says we'll ask ourselves -- realistically -- how much of a burden we're willing to bear in support of liberty.
There is virtually no one who is a 100% moralist and virtually no one who is a 100% realist. Virtually everyone is a mix, somewhere on the spectrum between these two poles. The disputes come not between absolute moralists, who don't exist in any large numbers, and absolute realists, who likewise don't exist in large numbers, but between those who urge a more moralistic foreign policy, and those who ure a more realistic one. Though those urging for more moralism are still informed by realism and those urging realism are still animated by moralism. It's a question of degree. My diagnosis of the foreign policy establishment's and neocons' analysis of foreign policy is that they view things through an almost purely moral lens, as if it's dirty and grubby to even consider pesky little questions like "What realistically can be done to vindicate this moral right? What can reasonably be asked of the American people to vindicate this moral right?" And I would argue that the foreign policy establishment, and the neocons who dominate the foreign policy establishment's right-hand wing, are far too devoted to a risibly moralistic concept of foreign policy that results in immoral and perverse outcomes. Let's look at the Ukraine. Ukraine has always been dominated by Russia. Russia colonized it. Russia annexed it. Russia suppressed Ukrainians' own language as well as its (Christian) church. I've known some Ukranian-Americans, and they were flag-waving patriots of both America and their beloved Ukraine. They loved Reagan, because Reagan understood Soviet evil -- an evil Ukranians had been suffering under for their entire lives. The Ukrainians have long wished for true freedom from the bullying (and worse) of their large, powerful, evil neighbor. And they have every moral right to that freedom. The trouble is, while they have every moral right, they do not have the physical might to be totally free of Russia's domination. Ukraine, while formally an independent country since it broke away from the Soviet Union in 1991, continued suffering under Russian domination. Technically they were independent -- but Russia acted as a cynical colonial power interfering in Ukrainian political decisions and thwarting the will of this long-oppressed people. In 2013, the so-called Euromaidan Revolution began. You can read up on that as you like, but the major thrust is that Ukraine wanted to join the EU. They wanted to align themselves with free Europe, and distance themselves from Russian control. So they kicked out the Russian puppet president of Ukraine. Russia didn't like that. And the threat of a Russian invasion loomed. The EU and the United States had different reactions to the Ukraine's morally-righteous but politically-provocative actions. The EU understood that it was a nation of self-interested pacifists who would not under any circumstances do much of anything -- apart from issuing communiques and the like -- to guarantee the Ukraine's political independence and territorial integrity. Basically, the EU counselled the Ukraine to go very slow and not upset too many Russian applecarts. Cowardly? Maybe. But while they could be accused of physical cowardice they can't be accused of the cowardice of lying to themselves. They knew damn well they would not lift a finger to help Ukraine should Russia invade, and they said so pretty clearly. So they told Ukraine to not do anything so provocative in declaring their independence from the Russian empire that the Russian empire would reassert its dominance. They did not lie to themselves about their willingness to fight for Ukraine, and so they did not lie to the Ukraine, either. On the other hand, there's Barack Obama. The man who would, by the very power of the charisms God granted him, cause the oceans to recede by the power of his arrogant gaze alone. Remember Victoria Nuland's "Fuck the EU!" phone call that leaked? Well, the "Fuck the EU" concerned the EU's cautious, go-slow urgings. The US chose to ignore misgivings about a possible Russian invasion and encouraged the Ukraine to get into a fight with Russia that they could not win. Well, the Ukraine got into that fight -- presumably expecting help from the US, which had encouraged it to get into a fight with Russia. And guess how much the US helped? Almost none at all, of course. We did the same things the EU was prepared to do -- issue Stinging Rebukes and Harshly Worded Statements. But when the Russians began sending mercenaries and special forces troops over the border to pretend to be "native Ukrainians fighting to stay aligned with their historical oppressor Russia," what did we do, beyond offering some sweet words of support? Nothing. We sent in some medical aid and other non-military aid. End result? Russian mercenaries and special forces operators faked an "indigenous uprising," killed a lot of Ukrainians, shot down a passenger jet, seized control centers in the Crimea, staged a "referendum" on whether Crimean wanted to stay in Ukraine or annex themselves to Russia. Spoiler alert on how that turned out: Armed Russian mercenaries were manning the polling places. Do the math. In the end, the Ukrainian rebellion was met with fire and slaughter and put down. Ukraine's subordinate position to the Russian empire was reinforced. And the most strategically important part of Ukraine decided to re-join Russia in a vote that was totally fair and free of coercion. The Ukraine is in no better a position than it was before the Revolution, except that more Ukrainians are dead and that a major part of Ukraine is now Russia. Here's a question: Between the EU response -- go slow, do not start a fight we are unwilling to help you in -- and the US response -- go fast, start a fight, we'll be with you all the way (except we won't be at all) -- which was the more "moral" response? The EU response looks less moral at first glance. After all, they were basically telling the Ukraine to continue putting up with a substantial amount of Russian interference and domination. The US response looks more moral, but only at first glance. We pushed for the Best of All Possible Worlds solution. Declare your independence from Russia and align yourself with the peaceful nations of Europe. But when the perfectly-predictable happened -- when Russia invaded with professional troops pretending to be Ukrainian freedom fighters -- we let them get slaughtered and set them down a path where they actually came out of the conflict in a worse position than they had begun it. So which was more moral? I know it must have felt super-good when Victoria Nuland said "Fuck the EU!" and urged Ukraine to fight for its independence. But how did it feel in the months and years that followed, with Ukrainians being bombed and shot and passenger jets being shot from the sky? A policy impulse -- I think "impulse" is the right word here, because I can't ascribe to it enough actual thinking to call it a "philosophy" -- that felt good when announced, that felt good when it cost nothing at all, actually wound up feeling not so good at all when people started getting killed and Ukraine looked to America for actual support, support that would actually cost America something, and America said, "Here's a sternly worded letter of reprimand for the Russian mercenaries murdering you." That's not moral. Morality comes after wisdom, and wisdom can only be had if someone is honest with themselves about what burdens they're actually willing to bear -- not just the burdens they're glad to rhetorically claim they'll bear -- and what costs they're willing to pay. People who lie to themselves about what they're willing to do are not wise, and, because they're not wise, they also can't really be moral. And their ill-wisdom can often lead to immoral outcomes, as they promiscuously make promises they've never thought very hard about and therefore feel free to shed at earliest convenience. America has a limited appetite for war. Americans will go to war, but they do reach a point of exhaustion with war after some number of years. It is silly to pretend this fact away in order to count oneself as "idealistic." People who ignore reality are not "idealistic;" they're just cowards afraid to face reality. The fact is that Americans are tired of war and it is dangerous to write checks on America's war-fighting account that it might not be willing to cover. The fact is that one of America's two main political parties is always willing to be part of a war at the Fun Part of the war -- the declaration of war part, the first-easy-victories part -- but which abandons every war it votes for when it sees any small political advantage in doing so. Joe Biden, John Kerry, Hillary Clinton and many other Democrat Senators voted for the War in Iraq. Within three years, they were screaming that Bush "lied us into war" and that we must withdraw immediately. It is insane to pretend this away. If you know Democrats will give you initial support for a war they'll happily vote you into, when doing so grants them political advantage, and then savagely turn on that war the moment they get political advantage from that, it is lunacy to even count them as allies in war. By the way: The NeverTrumpers who sometimes claim "At least Hillary Clinton would have been better on foreign policy?" Yes, of course. The same Hillary Clinton who voted for the War in Iraq to show how tough she would be as a president, and then agitated to abandon troops in the field when she realized that opposing the war would boost her chances of becoming president. Yeah, we need that kind of patriot as President, rather than the unamerican, immoral Trump. In 2008, Obama campaigned on the idea that he would somehow both withdraw from Iraq and yet also "win" Iraq by withdrawing. I was incensed by this; it was so obviously, transparently a lie and a dodge. He wasn't planning to "win" anything; he just wanted to bug out. I was angry at the media for never challenging his "Win by Withdrawing" claims and pissed off at Americans for believing this bullshit. But they voted him into office anyway, and by decent margins. I realized that Americans weren't really tricked by Obama; rather, Obama told them a lie that they knew was a lie but they wanted some "out" to pretend they were honoring the sacrifice of the already-dead while also bugging out of Iraq. So Obama pretended he would "win" the war in Iraq, and the American public pretended to believe him. They really didn't. But they did want out of the war, one way or the other, either stated forthrightly or crabwalked dishonestly, and they voted for Obama, and they voted for the dishonest crabwalk way of abandoning Iraq. And it was their right to make that choice. Every people has a right to decide how much of war's burdens it's willing to bear. But they did make that choice, and we cannot pretend that they didn't, and we cannot pretend that Americans' appetite for war is as limitless as internet bloviators' capacity for self-aggrandizement. When we think of war, we must assume that Democrats and therefore 45% of the country will turn on that war by the next midterm or presidential election. The war must therefore be either a very short one, all wrapped up before the Democrats execute their predictable turn against it, or slightly longer, but still short enough to keep the support of 55% of the public, most Republicans and most independents too, and the length of the war must not be so long as to cause that support to flee as well. These are the realistic limitations we face on America's war-making capacity. Again, it is not "idealistic" or "moral" to pretend these limitations away. Running from reality is like running from any other obstacle: a sign of cowardice (moral, intellectual, and psychological in this case), and not a sign of "idealism" and certainly not a sign of "courage." Wars are not #Hashtag campaigns, with an almost non-existent cost but a big boost of dopamine for Retweeting Justice. They are not just another venue for Virtue Signalling on Twitter. I tweeted support of Montenegro on Twitter. Look at what a #Braveheart I am. Wars have real costs and therefore they have real limitations. We do not do our war-fighters or our fellow Americans any favors by ignoring those limitations and refusing to know ourselves, to know, realistically, what we are willing to do and what we are not willing to do, how long we're willing to fight for and when we're likely to bug out and leave our allies or even our soldiers in the field without support. I'm not against moralism in foreign policy, but honesty is an important part of morality, and being honest with ourselves about what we're personally willing to do, and what we believe our fellow Americans are willing to do, is a critical part of the candid thinking necessary for a moral, and realistic, foreign policy. One that doesn't start a lot of wars and leave them half-finished. Wars can be left half-finished, but the dead they leave behind are all-the-way dead. I'd like to avoid more half-finished wars and more all-the-way dead Americans. And I think an important part of avoiding half-finished, lost wars is admitting that the years between 2003 and 2016 did in fact happen -- they weren't just a bad dream, I assure you -- and we have to heed the lessons that those years taught us. Or that those years should have taught us, at least.Comments
(Jump to bottom of comments)1
Holy text!
Posted by: Calm Mentor at July 18, 2018 06:39 PM (yJ9Jf)
Posted by: J.J. Sefton at July 18, 2018 06:40 PM (VM6ev)
3
Dang. I actually read this too.
Posted by: WinLinBSDAdmin at July 18, 2018 06:42 PM (vgwv+)
4
I'll call the corgis.
Posted by: Basement Cat at July 18, 2018 06:42 PM (3C9q2)
5
How many stars......?
Posted by: A dude in MI at July 18, 2018 06:42 PM (CDETr)
6
Boss:
I don't necessarily disagree with you and in fact probably agree. That said, what should have been the proper response after 9/11/01 assuming the Iraq War was a mistake? Not making the claim either way, just for the purposes of supposition making that assumption.
Boss:
I don't necessarily disagree with you and in fact probably agree. That said, what should have been the proper response after 9/11/01 assuming the Iraq War was a mistake? Not making the claim either way, just for the purposes of supposition making that assumption.
Posted by: J.J. Sefton at July 18, 2018 06:43 PM (VM6ev)
7
Oh lort! Ace is on a smart military blog roll.
Posted by: madamemayhem (uppity wench) at July 18, 2018 06:43 PM (myjNJ)
8
Yay. 6th paragraph from the bottom!
Posted by: Montenegro at July 18, 2018 06:43 PM (HgMAr)
9
Jeebus.
Posted by: Mr Aspirin Factory at July 18, 2018 06:44 PM (89T5c)
10
Well said, Ace!!
Posted by: Lizzy at July 18, 2018 06:44 PM (W+vEI)
Posted by: Military Industrial Complex at July 18, 2018 06:45 PM (r9UYA)
Posted by: garrett at July 18, 2018 06:45 PM (Gx74L)
13
I'm not sure I have time to read all that before bed time
Posted by: Skip at July 18, 2018 06:45 PM (pHfeF)
14
let the people who are all in for war go do the fighting and dying...
Posted by: redc1c4 at July 18, 2018 06:45 PM (uS008)
15
Wars kill people, destroy a lot of things.
I have no confidence the current MSM/DNC will allow that to happen in any US war.
Next time they demand war they should be asked: How many enemy deaths, US military deaths, and civilian deaths are acceptable to quench your thirst for war? If they are honest, they'll say "zero."
I have no confidence the current MSM/DNC will allow that to happen in any US war.
Next time they demand war they should be asked: How many enemy deaths, US military deaths, and civilian deaths are acceptable to quench your thirst for war? If they are honest, they'll say "zero."
Posted by: Lizzy at July 18, 2018 06:46 PM (W+vEI)
Posted by: Soothsayer -- Follow and Lick Me On Fakebook at July 18, 2018 06:46 PM (90V40)
17
Eu has 4 times the population of Russia.
12 Times the GDP.
Ukraine joining the EU puts this directly onto the Russian border...
Its like if Mexico decided to join China...
Simple question was is it worth the US going to War, over the EU expanding? and how is that in the US interest.
Especially when the EU itself was not willing to take on that fight.
12 Times the GDP.
Ukraine joining the EU puts this directly onto the Russian border...
Its like if Mexico decided to join China...
Simple question was is it worth the US going to War, over the EU expanding? and how is that in the US interest.
Especially when the EU itself was not willing to take on that fight.
Posted by: Don Q at July 18, 2018 06:46 PM (NgKpN)
18
Why is it THE Bronx?
Why is it THE Bronx?
Posted by: Soothsayer -- Follow and Lick Me On Fakebook at July 18, 2018 06:46 PM (90V40)
19
Much like Radio Free Europe giving the Hungarian Revolt the impression that NATO was going to assist them.
Posted by: All Hail Eris, She-Wolf of the 'Ettes 'Ettes at July 18, 2018 06:46 PM (gUCYC)
Posted by: Soothsayer -- Follow and Lick Me On Fakebook at July 18, 2018 06:46 PM (90V40)
21
I cannot be impartial on this. My son lived with a Ukrainian family for a while, a poor pastor and his wife. Very poor, but they gave him the best they had. He could tell they went without so that he could have.
After the uprising, we lost all touch with them. I don't know if they are alive or dead. They had two small girls and a little plot of land where they were trying to build a church.
I wish we had helped.
After the uprising, we lost all touch with them. I don't know if they are alive or dead. They had two small girls and a little plot of land where they were trying to build a church.
I wish we had helped.
Posted by: grammie winger at July 18, 2018 06:46 PM (lwiT4)
22
16 Why is it THE Ukraine?
Posted by: Soothsayer -- Follow and Lick Me On Fakebook at July 18, 2018 06:46 PM (90V40)
"Beats the shit out of me."
- - Da Bronx
Posted by: Soothsayer -- Follow and Lick Me On Fakebook at July 18, 2018 06:46 PM (90V40)
"Beats the shit out of me."
- - Da Bronx
Posted by: J.J. Sefton at July 18, 2018 06:47 PM (VM6ev)
23
*looks at shelf*
The American Threat: The Fear of War as an Instrument of Foreign Policy by James L. Payne. It was printed in 1970 as we were still stuck in Viet Nam but losing,
The American Threat: The Fear of War as an Instrument of Foreign Policy by James L. Payne. It was printed in 1970 as we were still stuck in Viet Nam but losing,
Posted by: Anna Puma (HQCaR) at July 18, 2018 06:47 PM (TSuBZ)
Posted by: Skandia Recluse at July 18, 2018 06:48 PM (roQNm)
25
Why is it THE Ukraine?
Posted by: Soothsayer -- Follow and Lick Me On Fakebook at July 18, 2018 06:46 PM (90V40)
It's not. It's Ukraine.
Posted by: Soothsayer -- Follow and Lick Me On Fakebook at July 18, 2018 06:46 PM (90V40)
It's not. It's Ukraine.
Posted by: grammie winger at July 18, 2018 06:48 PM (lwiT4)
26
19 Much like Radio Free Europe giving the Hungarian Revolt the impression that NATO was going to assist them.
Posted by: All Hail Eris, She-Wolf of the 'Ettes 'Ettes at July 18, 2018 06:46 PM (gUCYC)
And then there was Czechoslovakia in '38. And '68...
Posted by: All Hail Eris, She-Wolf of the 'Ettes 'Ettes at July 18, 2018 06:46 PM (gUCYC)
And then there was Czechoslovakia in '38. And '68...
Posted by: J.J. Sefton at July 18, 2018 06:48 PM (VM6ev)
Posted by: Under Fire at July 18, 2018 06:48 PM (r9UYA)
Posted by: Soothsayer -- Follow and Lick Me On Fakebook at July 18, 2018 06:48 PM (90V40)
29
THE Ukraine is Weak!
Posted by: Kramer at July 18, 2018 06:49 PM (Gx74L)
30
let the people who are all in for war go do the fighting and dying...
Posted by: redc1c4 at July 18, 2018 06:45 PM (uS00
This military mom wishes you had not said that.
Posted by: redc1c4 at July 18, 2018 06:45 PM (uS00
This military mom wishes you had not said that.
Posted by: grammie winger at July 18, 2018 06:49 PM (lwiT4)
31
One that doesn't start a lot of wars and leave them half-finished.
Shades of the War of 1812. We were lucky that Andrew Jackson won the battle of New Orleans after the Treaty of Ghent had been signed but before the news of the signing got across the Atlantic.
Shades of the War of 1812. We were lucky that Andrew Jackson won the battle of New Orleans after the Treaty of Ghent had been signed but before the news of the signing got across the Atlantic.
Posted by: Basement Cat at July 18, 2018 06:49 PM (3C9q2)
32
Don't forget Gaylord betraying the Green Revolution in Iran while trying to put a communist in as President of Honduras.
Posted by: Anna Puma (HQCaR) at July 18, 2018 06:49 PM (TSuBZ)
33
Why is it THE Ohio State?
Posted by: I'll take THE Question for $200, Alex at July 18, 2018 06:49 PM (ctuyM)
34
What ace said.
Posted by: @votermom @vm pimping great books usually free or sale at July 18, 2018 06:50 PM (hMwEB)
35
"The Ukraine" is what the Russians called it when it was a part of the USSR. Now that it is an independent nation, it is "Ukraine".
Posted by: All Hail Eris, She-Wolf of the 'Ettes 'Ettes at July 18, 2018 06:50 PM (gUCYC)
Posted by: Super-elite Deplorable Ian Galt, now with sparks of divinity at July 18, 2018 06:50 PM (8iiMU)
37
Why is it THE Ukraine?
Posted by: Soothsayer -- Follow and Lick Me On Fakebook at July 18, 2018 06:46 PM (90V40)
It isn't.
Any more than it is THE Britain. Both are solecisms.
Posted by: Soothsayer -- Follow and Lick Me On Fakebook at July 18, 2018 06:46 PM (90V40)
It isn't.
Any more than it is THE Britain. Both are solecisms.
Posted by: Trebuchet Manufacturers Association at July 18, 2018 06:50 PM (ez9Rh)
Posted by: garrett at July 18, 2018 06:50 PM (Gx74L)
39
33 Why is it THE Ohio State?
Posted by: I'll take THE Question for $200, Alex at July 18, 2018 06:49 PM (ctuyM)
Because that's what the Russians called it.
Posted by: I'll take THE Question for $200, Alex at July 18, 2018 06:49 PM (ctuyM)
Because that's what the Russians called it.
Posted by: Trebuchet Manufacturers Association at July 18, 2018 06:50 PM (ez9Rh)
40
>>>I don't necessarily disagree with you and in fact probably agree. That said, what should have been the proper response after 9/11/01 assuming the Iraq War was a mistake? Not making the claim either way, just for the purposes of supposition making that assumption.
Well, here's the thing. Part of this was just an error of fact. We thought they had WMDs. WMDs would be a good reason to go to war.
But they didn't have WMDs.
So I don't know what you do when your logic is fine but the premises you're basing your logic on are simply wrong.
I would say this, though:
The evidence for Iraqi WMDs was shaky and ambiguous, as we later found out.
Bill Clinton saw similar evidence. It wasn't a slam-dunk, as George Tenet claimed. It was suggestive and alarming without being conclusive.
So he attacked Iraq by half-measures. No-Fly Zones, "maintenance bombing," as critics derisively called it.
But given that Bush's own evidence was kind of shaky, did it make sense to commit to a full ground war and full occupation for years and year (though the length of the occupation was longer than I imagine they predicted)?
With the evidence kind of shaky, I could see a case for a more punitive no-fly zone policy and more frequent bombings coupled with attempts to destablilize Iraq and spur an uprising.
We could have just bombed all suspected WMD sites and presidential palaces and all the other places we suspected there might have been WMDs. And then rebombed them. And then bombed them six months later, in case we thought they had started those sites back producing WMDs.
That would have been far less costly a war.
Well, here's the thing. Part of this was just an error of fact. We thought they had WMDs. WMDs would be a good reason to go to war.
But they didn't have WMDs.
So I don't know what you do when your logic is fine but the premises you're basing your logic on are simply wrong.
I would say this, though:
The evidence for Iraqi WMDs was shaky and ambiguous, as we later found out.
Bill Clinton saw similar evidence. It wasn't a slam-dunk, as George Tenet claimed. It was suggestive and alarming without being conclusive.
So he attacked Iraq by half-measures. No-Fly Zones, "maintenance bombing," as critics derisively called it.
But given that Bush's own evidence was kind of shaky, did it make sense to commit to a full ground war and full occupation for years and year (though the length of the occupation was longer than I imagine they predicted)?
With the evidence kind of shaky, I could see a case for a more punitive no-fly zone policy and more frequent bombings coupled with attempts to destablilize Iraq and spur an uprising.
We could have just bombed all suspected WMD sites and presidential palaces and all the other places we suspected there might have been WMDs. And then rebombed them. And then bombed them six months later, in case we thought they had started those sites back producing WMDs.
That would have been far less costly a war.
Posted by: ace at July 18, 2018 06:50 PM (PA9oZ)
Posted by: Soothsayer -- Follow and Lick Me On Fakebook at July 18, 2018 06:51 PM (90V40)
42
Was there a single US ally or friendly nation that Gaylord did not try and stick a shiv in?
Posted by: Anna Puma (HQCaR) at July 18, 2018 06:51 PM (TSuBZ)
Posted by: SLAYER at July 18, 2018 06:51 PM (Gx74L)
44
sock off.
Posted by: Deplorable Jay Guevara, now with a spark of divinity at July 18, 2018 06:51 PM (ez9Rh)
45
I have mixed feelings about Ukraine and Russia. Actually, sad to say, very negative feelings towards both. Both are historically anti-semitic, the Ukrainians rabidly so. Between the pogroms and the Einsatzgruppen, everything from Poland to Moscow is a mass grave.
That said, we live in a different time and that demands different attitudes. But old wounds like that never heal.
Meh. Let them beat each other to death for all I care, frankly. Sorry to have to say that but that's the way I feel.
I have mixed feelings about Ukraine and Russia. Actually, sad to say, very negative feelings towards both. Both are historically anti-semitic, the Ukrainians rabidly so. Between the pogroms and the Einsatzgruppen, everything from Poland to Moscow is a mass grave.
That said, we live in a different time and that demands different attitudes. But old wounds like that never heal.
Meh. Let them beat each other to death for all I care, frankly. Sorry to have to say that but that's the way I feel.
Posted by: J.J. Sefton at July 18, 2018 06:51 PM (VM6ev)
46
Excellent post.
I wish you could include the concept of bluffing as well. As in, bullshitter like Obama thought they could bluff themselves out of stuff.
Well, a bluff is only a good as the bluffer, and Obama must have been the shitiest bluffer I have ever seen.
I wish you could include the concept of bluffing as well. As in, bullshitter like Obama thought they could bluff themselves out of stuff.
Well, a bluff is only a good as the bluffer, and Obama must have been the shitiest bluffer I have ever seen.
Posted by: Dean Wormer at July 18, 2018 06:52 PM (ABH6n)
47
We are not blessed with much American exceptionalism at foggy bottom.
Posted by: Sumdumchief at July 18, 2018 06:52 PM (eCASW)
48
>>>Why is it THE Ukraine?
Posted by: Soothsayer -- Follow and Lick Me On Fakebook at July 18, 2018 06:46 PM (90V40)
It isn't.
Any more than it is THE Britain. Both are solecisms.
...
yeah, it was common to say THE Ukraine, but then Ukrainians started telling us that that wasn't the way to refer to it.
I think RUSSIANS might have said "THE Ukraine," like they might say "those grasslands to our southwest which we are free to colonize." Like it's a patch of land for exploitation rather than a country.
Anyway, Ukrainians prefer just "Ukraine."
Posted by: Soothsayer -- Follow and Lick Me On Fakebook at July 18, 2018 06:46 PM (90V40)
It isn't.
Any more than it is THE Britain. Both are solecisms.
...
yeah, it was common to say THE Ukraine, but then Ukrainians started telling us that that wasn't the way to refer to it.
I think RUSSIANS might have said "THE Ukraine," like they might say "those grasslands to our southwest which we are free to colonize." Like it's a patch of land for exploitation rather than a country.
Anyway, Ukrainians prefer just "Ukraine."
Posted by: ace at July 18, 2018 06:52 PM (PA9oZ)
49
Washington advised us to avoid foreign entanglements. That was good advice.
Oh and by the way, the opposite of globalism.
Oh and by the way, the opposite of globalism.
Posted by: Caliban at July 18, 2018 06:52 PM (QE8X6)
50
Great tune.
Posted by: Mr Aspirin Factory at July 18, 2018 06:52 PM (89T5c)
Posted by: RioBravo at July 18, 2018 06:53 PM (0BFUD)
52
This is very well stated indeed.
I admit, somewhat to my shame, that I was all in on transforming Iraq because who doesn't want freedom? Well. I forgot that human nature is ever so and what is more powerful than the thirst for freedom is the tribal call to destroy the other tribe.
I was wrong.
I was wrong and it still burns to admit that and you think I would have remembered what we did to the Kurds and yet I was blinded by idealism.
Now? Now I want to know what, exactly, is the American interest being protected and what, in at least vague outlines, are the victory conditions before any other American sheds a single drop of blood.
I want to know why we have fathers and sons on patrol together in Afghanistan.
We are back again to honesty. And the American public needs to be honest with itself that it will not tolerate total war. Well, if you're not willing to utterly destroy the enemy, then you shouldn't be in the fight at all.
That may make me sound like a pacifist, which I am not, but it does put me in the hardcore realist camp. Because, you see, American troops can win a war in six months. It's just that the American public would lose their minds at what it would take to do so.
We are a nation of petulant children and we are being ruled by those who we have chosen to recognize as much.
I admit, somewhat to my shame, that I was all in on transforming Iraq because who doesn't want freedom? Well. I forgot that human nature is ever so and what is more powerful than the thirst for freedom is the tribal call to destroy the other tribe.
I was wrong.
I was wrong and it still burns to admit that and you think I would have remembered what we did to the Kurds and yet I was blinded by idealism.
Now? Now I want to know what, exactly, is the American interest being protected and what, in at least vague outlines, are the victory conditions before any other American sheds a single drop of blood.
I want to know why we have fathers and sons on patrol together in Afghanistan.
We are back again to honesty. And the American public needs to be honest with itself that it will not tolerate total war. Well, if you're not willing to utterly destroy the enemy, then you shouldn't be in the fight at all.
That may make me sound like a pacifist, which I am not, but it does put me in the hardcore realist camp. Because, you see, American troops can win a war in six months. It's just that the American public would lose their minds at what it would take to do so.
We are a nation of petulant children and we are being ruled by those who we have chosen to recognize as much.
Posted by: alexthechick - Superelite Ragebunny. Hopping all around. at July 18, 2018 06:53 PM (dEQP3)
53
It's a little weird that the Ukraine is separate from Russia. The historical origins of Russia were in Kiev. I'm not even sure why they speak different languages. I'll have to look that up. The Kiev Rus eventually made the Duchy of Moscow their capital, but it's weird they separate themselves.
Posted by: dagny at July 18, 2018 06:53 PM (nRWPy)
Posted by: @votermom @vm pimping great books usually free or sale at July 18, 2018 06:53 PM (hMwEB)
55
>>>. Both are historically anti-semitic, the Ukrainians rabidly so.
True dat.
But the Russians were/are just as anti-semitic.
True dat.
But the Russians were/are just as anti-semitic.
Posted by: ace at July 18, 2018 06:53 PM (PA9oZ)
56
Posted by: grammie winger at July 18, 2018 06:48 PM (lwiT4)
(Only a little OT): Hey grammie-- Any thoughts on a realistic policy for the NL to start winning All-Star games?
(Only a little OT): Hey grammie-- Any thoughts on a realistic policy for the NL to start winning All-Star games?
Posted by: Basement Cat at July 18, 2018 06:53 PM (3C9q2)
57
We're going to have to build another shelf to archive this beast.
Posted by: Fritz at July 18, 2018 06:53 PM (RfYYV)
58
Russian took over the Ukraine in the 1930's right after the Holodomor which they wiped out large portions of the population and replaced them with ethnic Russians
Posted by: Skip at July 18, 2018 06:53 PM (pHfeF)
Posted by: Count de Monet at July 18, 2018 06:54 PM (QLvwG)
60
When Little Winger lived in Ukraine, he said you could just walk down the lane and pick peaches and apples and plums and all kinds of fruit, everywhere for the taking. And yet they were starved at one point, no?
Posted by: grammie winger at July 18, 2018 06:54 PM (lwiT4)
61
>>Washington advised us to avoid foreign entanglements. That was good advice.
Oh and by the way, the opposite of globalism.
You shut your whore mouth.
Oh and by the way, the opposite of globalism.
You shut your whore mouth.
Posted by: Military Industrial Complex at July 18, 2018 06:54 PM (r9UYA)
62
40 Posted by: ace at July 18, 2018 06:50 PM (PA9oZ)
And that is how my position has evolved as well.
I do agree though that we should never ever go to war unless we are willing to use overwhelming and extreme force, have no rules of engagement whatsoever and if an occupation is called for, it's done so absolutely ruthlessly so that there is not even a hint of an insurrection.
I knew we were screwed when I heard the phrase "War on TERROR."
And that is how my position has evolved as well.
I do agree though that we should never ever go to war unless we are willing to use overwhelming and extreme force, have no rules of engagement whatsoever and if an occupation is called for, it's done so absolutely ruthlessly so that there is not even a hint of an insurrection.
I knew we were screwed when I heard the phrase "War on TERROR."
Posted by: J.J. Sefton at July 18, 2018 06:54 PM (VM6ev)
63
Any thoughts on a realistic policy for the NL to start winning All-Star games?
Posted by: Basement Cat at July 18, 2018 06:53 PM (3C9q2)
Castor oil. Works every time. Surprised they haven't gone to it before.
Posted by: Basement Cat at July 18, 2018 06:53 PM (3C9q2)
Castor oil. Works every time. Surprised they haven't gone to it before.
Posted by: grammie winger at July 18, 2018 06:55 PM (lwiT4)
64
I think RUSSIANS might have said "THE Ukraine"
Yeah, about that.
There are no articles in Russian, whether definite or indefinite.
Yeah, about that.
There are no articles in Russian, whether definite or indefinite.
Posted by: Deplorable Jay Guevara, now with a spark of divinity at July 18, 2018 06:55 PM (ez9Rh)
65
Very old: Did Saddam Hussein have WMDs?
Old: Was barack obama born in the USA?
Kinda new: Was only 'one side' to blame for the Charlottesville riots?
New: Did Russia interfere with the 2016 election?
These are *test* questions the Fake News asks, for which there is only 1 correct answer. Answer incorrectly and there'll be hell to pay.
Very old: Did Saddam Hussein have WMDs?
Old: Was barack obama born in the USA?
Kinda new: Was only 'one side' to blame for the Charlottesville riots?
New: Did Russia interfere with the 2016 election?
These are *test* questions the Fake News asks, for which there is only 1 correct answer. Answer incorrectly and there'll be hell to pay.
Posted by: Soothsayer -- Follow and Lick Me On Fakebook at July 18, 2018 06:55 PM (90V40)
66
Empress, we never left Afghanistan. Gaylord kept us there in just enough strength to not be mocked. While abandoning any support of Baghdad and thus allowing VagISIL to metastasize.
Posted by: Anna Puma (HQCaR) at July 18, 2018 06:55 PM (TSuBZ)
67
Dems be tweeting checks all over the place that their sorry asses can't cash.
Posted by: @votermom @vm pimping great books usually free or sale at July 18, 2018 06:55 PM (hMwEB)
Posted by: garrett at July 18, 2018 06:55 PM (Gx74L)
69
Who dots the I in Ukraine?
Posted by: Mr Aspirin Factory at July 18, 2018 06:55 PM (89T5c)
70
Also Russia is a poor country with a shrinking population--but a very big nuclear arsenal. Common sense dictates that we avoid the kind of saber-rattling McCain and his moralist friends wanted to see in Helsinki.
Posted by: Caliban at July 18, 2018 06:56 PM (QE8X6)
71
Just to let you know our State Department if full of nuts. Just sayin.
Posted by: Puddin Head at July 18, 2018 06:56 PM (vV/gB)
72
Is there victory in Afghanistan yet?
Posted by: Bertram Cabot, Jr. at July 18, 2018 06:56 PM (IqV8l)
73
This Ace fellow just does not understand Smart Diplomacy.
Posted by: Hillary at July 18, 2018 06:56 PM (/lkI0)
74
60 When Little Winger lived in Ukraine, he said you could just walk down the lane and pick peaches and apples and plums and all kinds of fruit, everywhere for the taking. And yet they were starved at one point, no?
Posted by: grammie winger at July 18, 2018 06:54 PM (lwiT4)
Thanks to the Yagoda's NKVD confiscating all the food and sealing off the country, yes.
Posted by: grammie winger at July 18, 2018 06:54 PM (lwiT4)
Thanks to the Yagoda's NKVD confiscating all the food and sealing off the country, yes.
Posted by: Deplorable Jay Guevara, now with a spark of divinity at July 18, 2018 06:57 PM (ez9Rh)
75
Why is it THE Ohio State?
Same reason that it's THE Johns Hopkins University, THE Rockefeller University, and THE New York Times (according to CMOS and the AP stylebook, anyway).
Same reason that it's THE Johns Hopkins University, THE Rockefeller University, and THE New York Times (according to CMOS and the AP stylebook, anyway).
Posted by: Basement Cat at July 18, 2018 06:57 PM (3C9q2)
76
Bush scheduled the vote for the Iraq war to Oct just before the election. He knew all the Democrats who opposed the war would vote for it in Oct. And after the Nov elections they all came out against it and objected to everything the US was doing..
Posted by: Vic We Have No Party at July 18, 2018 06:57 PM (mpXpK)
77
74 60 When Little Winger lived in Ukraine, he said you could just walk down the lane and pick peaches and apples and plums and all kinds of fruit, everywhere for the taking. And yet they were starved at one point, no?
Posted by: grammie winger at July 18, 2018 06:54 PM (lwiT4)
Thanks to the Yagoda's NKVD confiscating all the food and sealing off the country, yes.
Posted by: Deplorable Jay Guevara, now with a spark of divinity at July 18, 2018 06:57 PM (ez9Rh)
More Yoda. Less Yagoda.
Posted by: grammie winger at July 18, 2018 06:54 PM (lwiT4)
Thanks to the Yagoda's NKVD confiscating all the food and sealing off the country, yes.
Posted by: Deplorable Jay Guevara, now with a spark of divinity at July 18, 2018 06:57 PM (ez9Rh)
More Yoda. Less Yagoda.
Posted by: J.J. Sefton at July 18, 2018 06:57 PM (VM6ev)
78
Washington advised us to avoid foreign entanglements. That was good advice.
Oh and by the way, the opposite of globalism.
Might be worth remembering that when he said that 1) there were a lot of people trying to get us to declare war on Britain again on behalf of Revolutionary France, so he was talking about a specific issue and 2) Washington himself had launched military expeditions (without a declaration of war, incidentally) into the Ohio country against the Northwest Confederacy.
Washington was an aggressive expansionist, just not against Europeans.
Oh and by the way, the opposite of globalism.
Might be worth remembering that when he said that 1) there were a lot of people trying to get us to declare war on Britain again on behalf of Revolutionary France, so he was talking about a specific issue and 2) Washington himself had launched military expeditions (without a declaration of war, incidentally) into the Ohio country against the Northwest Confederacy.
Washington was an aggressive expansionist, just not against Europeans.
Posted by: Grey Fox at July 18, 2018 06:57 PM (bZ7mE)
79
Bertram well before the Russians took Kabul in 1979 and Carter did nothing, Afghanistan was pretty forgotten by the world.
Posted by: Anna Puma (HQCaR) at July 18, 2018 06:58 PM (TSuBZ)
80
Oh yeah, back to the artical, only 1/2 done
Posted by: Skip at July 18, 2018 06:58 PM (pHfeF)
81
What AtC said. If there has to be a war then go with the power to win it . That's what military might does. This don't shoot until they shoot at you, is utter bullshit.
Posted by: Ben Had at July 18, 2018 06:58 PM (8T7EF)
82
Lead From Behind
Posted by: Our Very Worst President at July 18, 2018 06:58 PM (UiRxW)
83
>> Russia is a poor country with a shrinking population--but a very big nuclear arsenal.
Soviet Bombs.
Old. Soviet. Bombs.
If 1 in 7 worked, I'd eat The Ukraine.
Soviet Bombs.
Old. Soviet. Bombs.
If 1 in 7 worked, I'd eat The Ukraine.
Posted by: garrett at July 18, 2018 06:58 PM (Gx74L)
84
grammie, good to see you back. I hope you're tanned, rested, and ready, because there's a Commenter that has sampled spicy kimchi, and is ready to take that step through the gateway.
As the official Lutefisk Ambassador to The Horde, it was suggested that you were the person best able to guide their descent.
As the official Lutefisk Ambassador to The Horde, it was suggested that you were the person best able to guide their descent.
Posted by: Duncanthrax at July 18, 2018 06:58 PM (ctuyM)
85
I have mixed feelings about Ukraine and Russia. Actually, sad to say, very negative feelings towards both. Both are historically anti-semitic, the Ukrainians rabidly so. Between the pogroms and the Einsatzgruppen, everything from Poland to Moscow is a mass grave.
That said, we live in a different time and that demands different attitudes. But old wounds like that never heal.
Meh. Let them beat each other to death for all I care, frankly. Sorry to have to say that but that's the way I feel.
Posted by: J.J. Sefton at July 18, 2018 06:51 PM (VM6ev)
OTOH, see this: https://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3342999,00.html
That said, we live in a different time and that demands different attitudes. But old wounds like that never heal.
Meh. Let them beat each other to death for all I care, frankly. Sorry to have to say that but that's the way I feel.
Posted by: J.J. Sefton at July 18, 2018 06:51 PM (VM6ev)
OTOH, see this: https://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3342999,00.html
Posted by: Deplorable Jay Guevara, now with a spark of divinity at July 18, 2018 06:58 PM (ez9Rh)
86
Yeah, so "Did Russia meddle in the election?" is the new "Was obama born in the USA?"
It's now a question the Fake News MUST ask all Republicans.
Yeah, so "Did Russia meddle in the election?" is the new "Was obama born in the USA?"
It's now a question the Fake News MUST ask all Republicans.
Posted by: Soothsayer -- Follow and Lick Me On Fakebook at July 18, 2018 06:58 PM (90V40)
87
All well said, Ace.
Jeepers, if there's one thing that the government of this country lacks, and needs a whole lot of, it is honesty.
Jeepers, if there's one thing that the government of this country lacks, and needs a whole lot of, it is honesty.
Posted by: sock_rat_eez - they are gaslighting us 24/365 at July 18, 2018 06:59 PM (yN/cP)
Posted by: AltonJackson at July 18, 2018 06:59 PM (KCxzN)
89
40 the Iraqis certainly possessed WMD during the Iran Iraq war. Chemicals caused lots of battlefield casualties for both sides.
Iran should have been the target set after the initial push on the taliban, imho.
Iran should have been the target set after the initial push on the taliban, imho.
Posted by: Sumdumchief at July 18, 2018 06:59 PM (eCASW)
90
Every fucking poppy field in Afghanistan should have been burned and salted on day one.
Posted by: Ben Had at July 18, 2018 07:00 PM (8T7EF)
91
More plums, I cannot eat. Awful squirts, I have.
Posted by: Yoda at July 18, 2018 07:00 PM (89T5c)
92
Alex, how are you doing? How's the family? How's Cochran?
Posted by: All Hail Eris, She-Wolf of the 'Ettes 'Ettes at July 18, 2018 07:00 PM (gUCYC)
93
Alexthechick I agree with you. Grammie, re: the NL winning the All-Star Game, I also agree.
Posted by: iwuzhere at July 18, 2018 07:00 PM (ijopM)
Posted by: Bertram Cabot, Jr. at July 18, 2018 07:00 PM (IqV8l)
95
Nobody asks how Russia "helped Trump" by promoting the EXACT same things as the Democrat party.
Nobody asks how Russia "helped Trump" by promoting the EXACT same things as the Democrat party.
Posted by: Soothsayer -- Follow and Lick Me On Fakebook at July 18, 2018 07:01 PM (90V40)
96
An interesting cold war Ukrainian refugee
story is none other than...Milla Jovavich.
And why is it The Sudan?
story is none other than...Milla Jovavich.
And why is it The Sudan?
Posted by: Gooshy at July 18, 2018 07:01 PM (Xc4zk)
97
War is like baseball or old school football, you play to win. You don't play not to lose which is what LBJ did in Viet Nam.
Posted by: Anna Puma (HQCaR) at July 18, 2018 07:01 PM (TSuBZ)
98
Posted by: J.J. Sefton at July 18, 2018 06:51 PM (VM6ev)
-------
Yeah it's weird. My mom's side is Litvak, my dad's is Russian. Foot in both worlds.
-------
Yeah it's weird. My mom's side is Litvak, my dad's is Russian. Foot in both worlds.
Posted by: Yudhishthira's Dice at July 18, 2018 07:01 PM (UiRxW)
Posted by: Soothsayer -- Follow and Lick Me On Fakebook at July 18, 2018 07:02 PM (90V40)
100
When we introduced the notion of Collateral Damage, we took all the effectiveness (and some may argue, the fun) out of War.
Posted by: garrett at July 18, 2018 07:02 PM (Gx74L)
101
*waves to Eris*
I'm actually fighting a migraine and losing. I bailed on work around 12:30 and have been vaguely watching tennis the rest of the day.
Family is well, thank you for asking.
Cochran's gills are coming in nicely though he is still in denial that he's mutating and turning into Aqua Boy.
I'm actually fighting a migraine and losing. I bailed on work around 12:30 and have been vaguely watching tennis the rest of the day.
Family is well, thank you for asking.
Cochran's gills are coming in nicely though he is still in denial that he's mutating and turning into Aqua Boy.
Posted by: alexthechick - Superelite Ragebunny. Hopping all around. at July 18, 2018 07:02 PM (dEQP3)
102
I may go to war over England - not Ukraine.
Posted by: SH at July 18, 2018 07:02 PM (JMdJG)
103
62
I knew we were screwed when I heard the phrase "War on TERROR."
Posted by: J.J. Sefton at July 18, 2018 06:54 PM (VM6ev)
That and also allowing Iraq and Afghanistan to recognize sharia law in their constitutions. We should have put our foot down and said, "No way."
I knew we were screwed when I heard the phrase "War on TERROR."
Posted by: J.J. Sefton at July 18, 2018 06:54 PM (VM6ev)
That and also allowing Iraq and Afghanistan to recognize sharia law in their constitutions. We should have put our foot down and said, "No way."
Posted by: rickl at July 18, 2018 07:02 PM (sdi6R)
104
More plums, I cannot eat. Awful squirts, I have.
Posted by: Yoda at July 18, 2018 07:00 PM
But now you flush with the knowledge that THE plumming works.
Posted by: Yoda at July 18, 2018 07:00 PM
But now you flush with the knowledge that THE plumming works.
Posted by: Obi Juan Sonobi at July 18, 2018 07:02 PM (ctuyM)
105
... the democrats and the republicans will never agree on anything, and the democrats will knife you in the back every chance they get.
Every eight years, sometimes on the odd four year election, you get a new president, and every two years you get a new congress. The US Government is not to be trusted.
And then there is the news media, a house organ of the democrat party, and academia - infiltrated and brainwashed by Marxist-Leninism. And Hollywood.
Meanwhile, the people are busy trying to make payments on their obligations while others are trying to con more money out of anyone gullible enough to listen to the con.
... the democrats and the republicans will never agree on anything, and the democrats will knife you in the back every chance they get.
Every eight years, sometimes on the odd four year election, you get a new president, and every two years you get a new congress. The US Government is not to be trusted.
And then there is the news media, a house organ of the democrat party, and academia - infiltrated and brainwashed by Marxist-Leninism. And Hollywood.
Meanwhile, the people are busy trying to make payments on their obligations while others are trying to con more money out of anyone gullible enough to listen to the con.
Posted by: Skandia Recluse at July 18, 2018 07:03 PM (roQNm)
106
Here's the thing about Us being the World Police ...
... unless you draft Us - we're just not that interested.
And I think that's a Good Thing. And President's should talk much, much less when it comes to International Treaties and such.
... unless you draft Us - we're just not that interested.
And I think that's a Good Thing. And President's should talk much, much less when it comes to International Treaties and such.
Posted by: ScoggDog at July 18, 2018 07:03 PM (fiGNd)
107
85 Posted by: Deplorable Jay Guevara, now with a spark of divinity at July 18, 2018 06:58 PM (ez9Rh)
Yes, but that does not negate or mitigate my comment. Some of the worst anti-semites were born Jews. Yagoda's religion at birth does not implicate his erstwhile coreligionists in anything. I honestly hate that kind of equivocation. Or people equating Communism/Socialism with Judaism and ALL Jews.
Yes, but that does not negate or mitigate my comment. Some of the worst anti-semites were born Jews. Yagoda's religion at birth does not implicate his erstwhile coreligionists in anything. I honestly hate that kind of equivocation. Or people equating Communism/Socialism with Judaism and ALL Jews.
Posted by: J.J. Sefton at July 18, 2018 07:03 PM (VM6ev)
108
I'd like a few of those Euromaidens.
Posted by: Insomniac at July 18, 2018 07:03 PM (NWiLs)
109
As the official Lutefisk Ambassador to The Horde, it was suggested that you were the person best able to guide their descent.
I don't think grammie puts carrots in chili, though.
I don't think grammie puts carrots in chili, though.
Posted by: Basement Cat at July 18, 2018 07:03 PM (3C9q2)
110
Cochran's gills are coming in nicely though he is still in denial that he's mutating and turning into Aqua Boy.
Posted by: alexthechick - Superelite Ragebunny. Hopping all around. at July 18, 2018 07:02 PM (dEQP3)
---
*sigh*
The lamest superhero.
Hey, have you seen the new Ant-Man? It's good, like a PG Deadpool.
Posted by: alexthechick - Superelite Ragebunny. Hopping all around. at July 18, 2018 07:02 PM (dEQP3)
---
*sigh*
The lamest superhero.
Hey, have you seen the new Ant-Man? It's good, like a PG Deadpool.
Posted by: All Hail Eris, She-Wolf of the 'Ettes 'Ettes at July 18, 2018 07:03 PM (gUCYC)
111
"62 40 Posted by: ace at July 18, 2018 06:50 PM (PA9oZ)
And that is how my position has evolved as well.
I do agree though that we should never ever go to war unless we are willing to use overwhelming and extreme force, have no rules of engagement whatsoever and if an occupation is called for, it's done so absolutely ruthlessly so that there is not even a hint of an insurrection.
I knew we were screwed when I heard the phrase "War on TERROR."
Posted by: J.J. Sefton at July 18, 2018 06:54 PM (VM6ev)"
This.
And start by going back to "War Department" instead of "Defense".
Words have meanings.
And that is how my position has evolved as well.
I do agree though that we should never ever go to war unless we are willing to use overwhelming and extreme force, have no rules of engagement whatsoever and if an occupation is called for, it's done so absolutely ruthlessly so that there is not even a hint of an insurrection.
I knew we were screwed when I heard the phrase "War on TERROR."
Posted by: J.J. Sefton at July 18, 2018 06:54 PM (VM6ev)"
This.
And start by going back to "War Department" instead of "Defense".
Words have meanings.
Posted by: sock_rat_eez - they are gaslighting us 24/365 at July 18, 2018 07:04 PM (yN/cP)
112
The sad truth is also that large parts of the Ukraine, and Kazakhstan for that matter, are chock full of RUSSIANS. I suppose we COULD make security guarantees to a Ukraine with adjusted borders, but otherwise heck no. And even then, is it worth it to risk American boys (and now girls)?
And no, the Crimea is not the Sudetenland.
And no, the Crimea is not the Sudetenland.
Posted by: Curmudgeon at July 18, 2018 07:04 PM (ujg0T)
113
I think Trump has honesty. Beyond that I don't know what to say.
I was ambivalent about going into Iraq. We should have just left when Sadam was crooked necked.
I was ambivalent about going into Iraq. We should have just left when Sadam was crooked necked.
Posted by: eleven at July 18, 2018 07:04 PM (+lOpA)
114
I'm sure the courageous Victoria Neuland and Obama consulted with their magnificent genius INTELLIGENCE AGENCIES as to the likelihood of Putin responding with force, and those towering, never-wrong intellects SURELY confided that Putin was way too afraid of Barack the Lightgiver to ever launch a campaign of mercenaries and Special Forces.
And those intelligence agencies are the same infallible giants who are outraged at Trump today questioning their infallibility. So which was it?
Did they wrongly advise Obama Neuland, or did those worthies IGNORE their advice? Which is what they're whining about Trump doing today.
This is some great historical shyte that for some reason our MediaLeaders have totally forgotten.
Huh.
And those intelligence agencies are the same infallible giants who are outraged at Trump today questioning their infallibility. So which was it?
Did they wrongly advise Obama Neuland, or did those worthies IGNORE their advice? Which is what they're whining about Trump doing today.
This is some great historical shyte that for some reason our MediaLeaders have totally forgotten.
Huh.
Posted by: JewishOdysseus at July 18, 2018 07:04 PM (+O9YB)
115
And why is it The Sudan?
So it's not confused with the coupe?
Posted by: Soothsayer -- Follow and Lick Me On Fakebook at July 18, 2018 07:02 PM (90V40)
Or The Settee
Or The Vestibule
So it's not confused with the coupe?
Posted by: Soothsayer -- Follow and Lick Me On Fakebook at July 18, 2018 07:02 PM (90V40)
Or The Settee
Or The Vestibule
Posted by: Count de Monet at July 18, 2018 07:04 PM (QLvwG)
116
Who is this Bill Browder character?
Posted by: Cosmic Charlie at July 18, 2018 07:04 PM (PUmDY)
117
You left out that America instigated the Ukrainian coup that ousted Yanukovych. Victoria Nuland was caught on tape discussing the new cabinet members even before this 'indigenous' coup started.
Posted by: MikeN at July 18, 2018 07:04 PM (o/eHL)
118
There's about as much chance Trump takes any direction from Putin as that he would fuck an ugly woman.
Posted by: Smashing the Golden Calf at July 18, 2018 07:04 PM (WPxnj)
119
I knew a young family on that flight, she was Malaysian and her husband dutch. They had a baby boy and they were going home to Malaysia after taking the baby to visit his grandparents in holland. Not only their lives were destroyed but so we the lives of their parents. Barack Obama's feckless policies should earn him a spot in hell.
Posted by: IC at July 18, 2018 07:04 PM (PEJUg)
Posted by: Anna Puma (HQCaR) at July 18, 2018 07:04 PM (TSuBZ)
121
102 I may go to war over England - not Ukraine.
Posted by: SH at July 18, 2018 07:02 PM (JMdJG)
---
Personally, I want a review of Five Eyes.
Posted by: SH at July 18, 2018 07:02 PM (JMdJG)
---
Personally, I want a review of Five Eyes.
Posted by: All Hail Eris, She-Wolf of the 'Ettes 'Ettes at July 18, 2018 07:04 PM (gUCYC)
122
This is a country no longer able to wage war, even in its own self interest, let alone for moral interest. The book on how to defeat us is out.
This is not good for the world.
(BTW. One of my favorite things you've written, Ace.)
This is not good for the world.
(BTW. One of my favorite things you've written, Ace.)
Posted by: Tommy V at July 18, 2018 07:05 PM (2waO2)
123
THE Ottoman.
Posted by: THE Man on at July 18, 2018 07:05 PM (ctuyM)
124
111 And start by going back to "War Department" instead of "Defense".
Words have meanings.
Posted by: sock_rat_eez - they are gaslighting us 24/365 at July 18, 2018 07:04 PM (yN/cP)
Dubya also gave us "the religion of peace." That was unforgivable.
Words have meanings.
Posted by: sock_rat_eez - they are gaslighting us 24/365 at July 18, 2018 07:04 PM (yN/cP)
Dubya also gave us "the religion of peace." That was unforgivable.
Posted by: J.J. Sefton at July 18, 2018 07:05 PM (VM6ev)
125
There's about as much chance Trump takes any direction from Putin as that he would fuck an ugly woman.
Well, he schlonged ME!
Well, he schlonged ME!
Posted by: Hillary! at July 18, 2018 07:05 PM (oVJmc)
126
Ace -
From a "from the beginning" lurker & v/rare commenter:
This is very good (~+2sd).
Insty linkworthy IMHO.
From a "from the beginning" lurker & v/rare commenter:
This is very good (~+2sd).
Insty linkworthy IMHO.
Posted by: phaedrus at July 18, 2018 07:05 PM (XGkeM)
127
This. And start by going back to "War Department" instead of "Defense". Words have meanings.
Posted by: sock_rat_eez - they are gaslighting us 24/365 at July 18, 2018 07:04 PM (yN/cP)
I miss being the cuck ... before cuck was a word ... for saying crazy shit like Get A Declaration Of War.
Posted by: sock_rat_eez - they are gaslighting us 24/365 at July 18, 2018 07:04 PM (yN/cP)
I miss being the cuck ... before cuck was a word ... for saying crazy shit like Get A Declaration Of War.
Posted by: ScoggDog at July 18, 2018 07:05 PM (fiGNd)
128
This obsession with all things Russia...does the left think this will get people to the polls?
Posted by: Max Power at July 18, 2018 07:06 PM (q177U)
129
>>I was ambivalent about going into Iraq. We should have just left when Sadam was crooked necked.
First we should have carved a nation out for The Kurds.
Then we should have killed every Imam in the Country.
Then we should have left. For Tehran.
First we should have carved a nation out for The Kurds.
Then we should have killed every Imam in the Country.
Then we should have left. For Tehran.
Posted by: garrett at July 18, 2018 07:06 PM (Gx74L)
130
Shrub Bush also gave us obama.
Shrub Bush also gave us obama.
Posted by: Soothsayer -- Follow and Lick Me On Fakebook at July 18, 2018 07:06 PM (90V40)
131
I think what Ace is saying is that leftist nitwits always f#ck stuff up but some are worse than others.
Posted by: The chicken at July 18, 2018 07:06 PM (UdKB7)
132
I'm sorry Mr. Spades, but your book manuscript about Ukraine was far too long, and needs to be trimmed to keep it under 300 pages for us to consider publishing it.
Posted by: Random House at July 18, 2018 07:06 PM (c+2jX)
133
Posted by: Skandia Recluse at July 18, 2018 07:03 PM (roQNm)
Yes. This country does not have the wherewithal to conduct a long war.
For the reasons you state.
Yes. This country does not have the wherewithal to conduct a long war.
For the reasons you state.
Posted by: eleven at July 18, 2018 07:06 PM (+lOpA)
134
Any Republican President that has to go to war better have a rock solid plan to have that war over and done in the course of his presidency.
Posted by: Ben Had at July 18, 2018 07:06 PM (8T7EF)
135
>>>81 What AtC said. If there has to be a war then go with the power to win it . That's what military might does. This don't shoot until they shoot at you, is utter bullshit.
Posted by: Ben Had
I think that's only part of it. Realistically, the lower your direct interest in a war is, the lower will be not just your willingness to accept casualties, but to inflict them as well.
Like, yeah, you could win a war by just MOAB-ing civilian centers but you'd have to be REALLY committed to the outcome of the war to do that.
I think we're claiming we're going to "fight wars" in a bunch of places where our actual interest is pretty low and that's going to dictate not just how much we're willing to die but how much we're willing to kill.
It's SOP for most forces fighting us to hide among civilians. How many innocent civilians are we willing to kill?
Depends on the situation. But where we've gone to war to "liberate the Iraqi people," for example, it's hard to wrap one's head around the idea of blowing up civilian centers just to get at the terrorists hiding among them.
I mean, yes, you're partly right. But only partly. We just can't go Full Brutal in all of these places, given that our actual interest in even being in the fight at all is often kind of on the low side.
Posted by: Ben Had
I think that's only part of it. Realistically, the lower your direct interest in a war is, the lower will be not just your willingness to accept casualties, but to inflict them as well.
Like, yeah, you could win a war by just MOAB-ing civilian centers but you'd have to be REALLY committed to the outcome of the war to do that.
I think we're claiming we're going to "fight wars" in a bunch of places where our actual interest is pretty low and that's going to dictate not just how much we're willing to die but how much we're willing to kill.
It's SOP for most forces fighting us to hide among civilians. How many innocent civilians are we willing to kill?
Depends on the situation. But where we've gone to war to "liberate the Iraqi people," for example, it's hard to wrap one's head around the idea of blowing up civilian centers just to get at the terrorists hiding among them.
I mean, yes, you're partly right. But only partly. We just can't go Full Brutal in all of these places, given that our actual interest in even being in the fight at all is often kind of on the low side.
Posted by: ace at July 18, 2018 07:06 PM (PA9oZ)
136
Russian politicos like "The Ukraine" because it makes Ukraine sound like a Russian province. "Ukraine" is the standalone name. Moral of the story: Don't bet against Grammie Winger!
Posted by: PaddyBeaner at July 18, 2018 07:06 PM (jlmBM)
137
Ace, exactly.
Lesson learned, never give up your nukes, make them pry them from your cold (or really hot) dead fingers.
Lesson learned, never give up your nukes, make them pry them from your cold (or really hot) dead fingers.
Posted by: Jean at July 18, 2018 07:07 PM (is8Cu)
138
Shrub Bush also gave us obama.
Posted by: Soothsayer -- Follow and Lick Me On Fakebook at July 18, 2018 07:06 PM (90V40)
I think of him as my greatest achievement as President.
Posted by: Soothsayer -- Follow and Lick Me On Fakebook at July 18, 2018 07:06 PM (90V40)
I think of him as my greatest achievement as President.
Posted by: Dubya at July 18, 2018 07:07 PM (j6XEO)
139
Hey, have you seen the new Ant-Man? It's good, like a PG Deadpool.
Posted by: All Hail Eris, She-Wolf of the 'Ettes 'Ettes at July 18, 2018 07:03 PM (gUCYC)
I have not yet but I shall have to do so.
Posted by: All Hail Eris, She-Wolf of the 'Ettes 'Ettes at July 18, 2018 07:03 PM (gUCYC)
I have not yet but I shall have to do so.
Posted by: alexthechick - Superelite Ragebunny. Hopping all around. at July 18, 2018 07:07 PM (dEQP3)
140
I'm guessing Jonathan Lemire the AP reporter who dropped the Are you still beating your wife question to President Trump is quite the toast of the town, probably hasn't had to by a drink or meal since then.
Posted by: Skip at July 18, 2018 07:07 PM (pHfeF)
141
>>>130
Shrub Bush also gave us obama.
Posted by: Soothsayer
i was talking about this with a smart, principled neocon friend and I brought that up at the end of our discussion/pleasant argument and he could only shrug and say "I guess that's hard to dispute."
That was a real cost to the Iraq War, too, above and beyond the conventional measures of cost.
Shrub Bush also gave us obama.
Posted by: Soothsayer
i was talking about this with a smart, principled neocon friend and I brought that up at the end of our discussion/pleasant argument and he could only shrug and say "I guess that's hard to dispute."
That was a real cost to the Iraq War, too, above and beyond the conventional measures of cost.
Posted by: ace at July 18, 2018 07:08 PM (PA9oZ)
142
>>Soviet Bombs.
Old. Soviet. Bombs.
If 1 in 7 worked, I'd eat The Ukraine.
Posted by: garrett at July 18, 2018 06:58 PM (Gx74L)
If 1 in 7 works, you won't have to.
Old. Soviet. Bombs.
If 1 in 7 worked, I'd eat The Ukraine.
Posted by: garrett at July 18, 2018 06:58 PM (Gx74L)
If 1 in 7 works, you won't have to.
Posted by: Caliban at July 18, 2018 07:08 PM (QE8X6)
143
I don't necessarily disagree with you and in fact probably agree. That
said, what should have been the proper response after 9/11/01 assuming
the Iraq War was a mistake?
The proper realistic, and moralistic response to 9/11 was to send B-52s with megaton level nukes to air burst carpet bomb Afghanistan until there wasn't so much as a fucking cockroach crawling around alive. Then go to the UN and ask, "Now, are there any questions or any smart ass remarks?" Then explain: "Every time there was another Islamic terrorist attack any where in the world, that another Islamic country would disappear, and that would be repeated until there were no more terrorist attacks or no more Islamic countries - which ever comes first."
said, what should have been the proper response after 9/11/01 assuming
the Iraq War was a mistake?
The proper realistic, and moralistic response to 9/11 was to send B-52s with megaton level nukes to air burst carpet bomb Afghanistan until there wasn't so much as a fucking cockroach crawling around alive. Then go to the UN and ask, "Now, are there any questions or any smart ass remarks?" Then explain: "Every time there was another Islamic terrorist attack any where in the world, that another Islamic country would disappear, and that would be repeated until there were no more terrorist attacks or no more Islamic countries - which ever comes first."
Posted by: An Observation at July 18, 2018 07:08 PM (pCa05)
Posted by: Under Fire at July 18, 2018 07:08 PM (r9UYA)
145
So Ace reviewed a movie about the Ukraine?
Posted by: Cannibal Bob at July 18, 2018 07:08 PM (Zmczq)
146
This is all very true and well presented.
I think the obama approach had additional problems. There was no cost to Russia for their invasion. As there was no cost for the invasion of Georgia. Likewise, there was no cost for the Cole regarding another adversary and another region. And there was no cost for the Hainan Island incident, or later, the south china sea in general.
When there is no cost. No cost at all for these transgressions you can expect more of them.
So talking tough and acting weak is one problem, acting weak is a problem in and of itself. To be clear, I am not (nor have I ever been) a neocon. I am not advocating war, or proxy war with china or russia.
I think the obama approach had additional problems. There was no cost to Russia for their invasion. As there was no cost for the invasion of Georgia. Likewise, there was no cost for the Cole regarding another adversary and another region. And there was no cost for the Hainan Island incident, or later, the south china sea in general.
When there is no cost. No cost at all for these transgressions you can expect more of them.
So talking tough and acting weak is one problem, acting weak is a problem in and of itself. To be clear, I am not (nor have I ever been) a neocon. I am not advocating war, or proxy war with china or russia.
Posted by: Gentlemen, this is democracy manifest at July 18, 2018 07:08 PM (LWu6U)
147
As a rule, fight wars in places that have hot chicks, good food, and a mean IQ at or about 100. One other biggie, don't be the first to join a war, but rather, be the last one and bring the big.
Rules for War by Puddin Head
Rules for War by Puddin Head
Posted by: Puddin Head at July 18, 2018 07:08 PM (vV/gB)
148
48 >>>Why is it THE Ukraine?
Posted by: Soothsayer -- Follow and Lick Me On Fakebook at July 18, 2018 06:46 PM (90V40)
It isn't.
Any more than it is THE Britain. Both are solecisms.
...
yeah, it was common to say THE Ukraine, but then Ukrainians started telling us that that wasn't the way to refer to it.
I think RUSSIANS might have said "THE Ukraine," like they might say "those grasslands to our southwest which we are free to colonize." Like it's a patch of land for exploitation rather than a country.
Anyway, Ukrainians prefer just "Ukraine."
Posted by: ace at July 18, 2018 06:52 PM (PA9oZ)
In fairness, it is VERY common to say "The USA" and "The UK", so "The Ukraine", may just be a sloppy Anglophone habit.
Of course, we would not say The America or The Britain, but there is no alliteration with those.
Posted by: Soothsayer -- Follow and Lick Me On Fakebook at July 18, 2018 06:46 PM (90V40)
It isn't.
Any more than it is THE Britain. Both are solecisms.
...
yeah, it was common to say THE Ukraine, but then Ukrainians started telling us that that wasn't the way to refer to it.
I think RUSSIANS might have said "THE Ukraine," like they might say "those grasslands to our southwest which we are free to colonize." Like it's a patch of land for exploitation rather than a country.
Anyway, Ukrainians prefer just "Ukraine."
Posted by: ace at July 18, 2018 06:52 PM (PA9oZ)
In fairness, it is VERY common to say "The USA" and "The UK", so "The Ukraine", may just be a sloppy Anglophone habit.
Of course, we would not say The America or The Britain, but there is no alliteration with those.
Posted by: Curmudgeon at July 18, 2018 07:08 PM (ujg0T)
149
I can understand the desire to avoid civilian casualties as much as possible. However it seems stupid to say no civilian casualties ever is the only acceptable path. War is hell, people die, and the U.S. tries to minimize that. We cannot fight a war with our hands tied. That just gets our military killed.
Maybe I'm a bad person for this but I would rather sacrifice their civilians instead of our military.
Maybe I'm a bad person for this but I would rather sacrifice their civilians instead of our military.
Posted by: madamemayhem (uppity wench) at July 18, 2018 07:09 PM (myjNJ)
150
Yes but Obama brought trump.
Posted by: SH at July 18, 2018 07:09 PM (JMdJG)
151
Set The Divan down over there in the corner of The Veranda.
Posted by: Count de Monet at July 18, 2018 07:09 PM (QLvwG)
152
Amen, Ben Had @ 134. Amen. George H.W. didn't go the distance, and George W. had a lot of desire, but he didn't finish the job, either. and clintoon and ubama both stabbed our military and America in the back.
Posted by: Eromero at July 18, 2018 07:10 PM (zLDYs)
153
From the veranda can you see the larch?
Posted by: Anna Puma (HQCaR) at July 18, 2018 07:10 PM (TSuBZ)
154
Yes, but that does not negate or mitigate my comment. Some of the worst anti-semites were born Jews. Yagoda's religion at birth does not implicate his erstwhile coreligionists in anything. I honestly hate that kind of equivocation. Or people equating Communism/Socialism with Judaism and ALL Jews.
Posted by: J.J. Sefton at July 18, 2018 07:03 PM (VM6ev)
No, it doesn't, and I wasn't doing any such equation, but I think you know that, and of course the article is from the Israeli press.
Ukrainians have indeed historically been virulently anti-Semitic, and have a long and despicable history of atrocities. Having said that, as the article suggests, their identification by Ukrainians with implementation of the Holodomor - regardless of the fairness of doing that - pretty much guaranteed a lot of Ukrainian enmity a mere ten years after millions had been starved.
Posted by: J.J. Sefton at July 18, 2018 07:03 PM (VM6ev)
No, it doesn't, and I wasn't doing any such equation, but I think you know that, and of course the article is from the Israeli press.
Ukrainians have indeed historically been virulently anti-Semitic, and have a long and despicable history of atrocities. Having said that, as the article suggests, their identification by Ukrainians with implementation of the Holodomor - regardless of the fairness of doing that - pretty much guaranteed a lot of Ukrainian enmity a mere ten years after millions had been starved.
Posted by: Deplorable Jay Guevara, now with a spark of divinity at July 18, 2018 07:10 PM (ez9Rh)
155
"Let them beat each other to death for all I care, frankly. "
Not our problem. Lazy fair and all that.
Not our problem. Lazy fair and all that.
Posted by: The chicken at July 18, 2018 07:10 PM (UdKB7)
156
Russia dealt with Ukraine - a troublesome, oft traitorous sub-state in their way. The American way allows California. Messy but the latter is preferable.
Posted by: rammajamma at July 18, 2018 07:10 PM (xceTB)
157
Speaking of THE Ivory Coast, a French colony...
The unfunny and ignorant Noah Trevor congratulated Africa for winning the World Cup because all of France's players were, in his opinion, dark, thus Africans not "French."
Which many people quickly pointed out that's like someone congratulating Africa when THE Golden State Warriors won the NBA championship.
Speaking of THE Ivory Coast, a French colony...
The unfunny and ignorant Noah Trevor congratulated Africa for winning the World Cup because all of France's players were, in his opinion, dark, thus Africans not "French."
Which many people quickly pointed out that's like someone congratulating Africa when THE Golden State Warriors won the NBA championship.
Posted by: Soothsayer -- Follow and Lick Me On Fakebook at July 18, 2018 07:10 PM (90V40)
158
It also needs to be said that Russia did not just treat Ukraine badly, it genocided them.
Posted by: Gentlemen, this is democracy manifest at July 18, 2018 07:10 PM (LWu6U)
159
Sorry no, the 2013 thing was a US coup against a thoroughly corrupt but validly democratically elected government.
You are right about the moralism but insufficiently cynical. It is 100% fake. They are monsters who are killing and displacing millions and millions in order to arrive at the end of history (conservatives used to be against this).
Not a fan of the Russian government but the far bigger threat to peace is our own. We are the international revolutionary power, with no compunction about killing and displacing populations to spread freedom and democracy (that is, corporate rule and gay pride parades). I love our country but "we" - the neocons and liberal establishment - are the problem.
You are right about the moralism but insufficiently cynical. It is 100% fake. They are monsters who are killing and displacing millions and millions in order to arrive at the end of history (conservatives used to be against this).
Not a fan of the Russian government but the far bigger threat to peace is our own. We are the international revolutionary power, with no compunction about killing and displacing populations to spread freedom and democracy (that is, corporate rule and gay pride parades). I love our country but "we" - the neocons and liberal establishment - are the problem.
Posted by: Jihadi at July 18, 2018 07:10 PM (blf2l)
160
>>143
The proper realistic, and
moralistic response to 9/11 was to send B-52s with megaton level nukes
to air burst carpet bomb Afghanistan until there wasn't so much as a
fucking cockroach crawling around alive. Then go to the UN and ask,
"Now, are there any questions or any smart ass remarks?" Then explain:
"Every time there was another Islamic terrorist attack any where in the
world, that another Islamic country would disappear, and that would be
repeated until there were no more terrorist attacks or no more Islamic
countries - which ever comes first."
Posted by: An Observation
Cut. Jib. Newsletter.
The proper realistic, and
moralistic response to 9/11 was to send B-52s with megaton level nukes
to air burst carpet bomb Afghanistan until there wasn't so much as a
fucking cockroach crawling around alive. Then go to the UN and ask,
"Now, are there any questions or any smart ass remarks?" Then explain:
"Every time there was another Islamic terrorist attack any where in the
world, that another Islamic country would disappear, and that would be
repeated until there were no more terrorist attacks or no more Islamic
countries - which ever comes first."
Posted by: An Observation
Cut. Jib. Newsletter.
Posted by: Under Fire at July 18, 2018 07:10 PM (r9UYA)
161
151 Set The Divan down over there in the corner of The Veranda.
Posted by: Count de Monet
I prefer to stay over here on my comfortable settee.
Posted by: Count de Monet
I prefer to stay over here on my comfortable settee.
Posted by: obscure punk lyrics reference at July 18, 2018 07:11 PM (c+2jX)
162
Meh, you lost me early on.
Neocons?
Morality?
You either have very different definitions for one or both of those words or still don't understand what the neocons are all about.
Neocons?
Morality?
You either have very different definitions for one or both of those words or still don't understand what the neocons are all about.
Posted by: teej at July 18, 2018 07:11 PM (Z7oqE)
163
149 I can understand the desire to avoid civilian casualties as much as possible. However it seems stupid to say no civilian casualties ever is the only acceptable path. War is hell, people die, and the U.S. tries to minimize that. We cannot fight a war with our hands tied. That just gets our military killed.
Maybe I'm a bad person for this but I would rather sacrifice their civilians instead of our military.
-----------------
The British would never send their men into French/Dutch towns and cities to clean out the Germans. They would just bring up the artillery and pound the place. The reason was they had lost so many in WWI they were not going to lose lives to save real estate values. The Americans did the opposite.
Maybe I'm a bad person for this but I would rather sacrifice their civilians instead of our military.
-----------------
The British would never send their men into French/Dutch towns and cities to clean out the Germans. They would just bring up the artillery and pound the place. The reason was they had lost so many in WWI they were not going to lose lives to save real estate values. The Americans did the opposite.
Posted by: Puddin Head at July 18, 2018 07:11 PM (vV/gB)
164
Didn't read the whole thing... haven't read the comments.
While I understand the point you're trying to make...
It's unfortunately not also realistic to expect that we can surrender the rest of the world to the authoritarian states and still expect to keep our independence ourselves in any reasonable fashion. I'm currently thinking of all the states in Asia and whatnot we've surrendered to the Russians/Chinese/the-rest-of-that-damn-mafia.
For instance, in this hemisphere, Venezuela and Nicaragua (where they're shooting people now).
I don't think we can do much to help Ukraine now, Barack The Putrescent spent the Golden Hour when we could have forestalled a conflict examining his manicure and thinking that He Won, and instead of preparing for an upcoming Golden Hour Hillary spent a lot of treasure and energy betraying the former Soviet client who trusted us and gave up his nuclear program. (I refer, of course, to Kadaffy. If you told me in 1985 that I'd regret his death like this... well, damn. I'm speechless).
All these people pissed away a million golden hours and now they want to be born-again cold warriors, like we can go down to the Goodwill and get our credibility back for a cheap price and maybe wipe it down with bleach.
While I understand the point you're trying to make...
It's unfortunately not also realistic to expect that we can surrender the rest of the world to the authoritarian states and still expect to keep our independence ourselves in any reasonable fashion. I'm currently thinking of all the states in Asia and whatnot we've surrendered to the Russians/Chinese/the-rest-of-that-damn-mafia.
For instance, in this hemisphere, Venezuela and Nicaragua (where they're shooting people now).
I don't think we can do much to help Ukraine now, Barack The Putrescent spent the Golden Hour when we could have forestalled a conflict examining his manicure and thinking that He Won, and instead of preparing for an upcoming Golden Hour Hillary spent a lot of treasure and energy betraying the former Soviet client who trusted us and gave up his nuclear program. (I refer, of course, to Kadaffy. If you told me in 1985 that I'd regret his death like this... well, damn. I'm speechless).
All these people pissed away a million golden hours and now they want to be born-again cold warriors, like we can go down to the Goodwill and get our credibility back for a cheap price and maybe wipe it down with bleach.
Posted by: Thing From Snowy Mountain at July 18, 2018 07:11 PM (87ijN)
165
Too true, JJS.
Posted by: sock_rat_eez - they are gaslighting us 24/365 at July 18, 2018 07:11 PM (yN/cP)
166
This is a country no longer able to wage war, even in its own self interest, let alone for moral interest. The book on how to defeat us is out.
This is not good for the world.
(BTW. One of my favorite things you've written, Ace.)
Posted by: Tommy V at July 18, 2018 07:05 PM (2waO2)
Oh No ... staying home is EXACTLY what the world has needed - since USSR Collapse +1.
We refuse to let the world suffer. And there is no reason to take that position anymore.
We are a Global Enabler.
This is not good for the world.
(BTW. One of my favorite things you've written, Ace.)
Posted by: Tommy V at July 18, 2018 07:05 PM (2waO2)
Oh No ... staying home is EXACTLY what the world has needed - since USSR Collapse +1.
We refuse to let the world suffer. And there is no reason to take that position anymore.
We are a Global Enabler.
Posted by: ScoggDog at July 18, 2018 07:11 PM (fiGNd)
167
Also, there was that Russian-Ukrainian treaty, guaranteed by the USA and the UK, where Russia and the Ukraine guaranteed each other frontiers in exchange of the Ukraine giving up its nuclear weapons. Putin treated that treaty as a piece of (toilet) paper (where have I heard that before).
The whole situation stinks. "Polish corridor" stinks.
For Russia 'might makes right' is seen as acceptable. Just like it did in 1939 when they carved up Poland together with Germany.
It makes me realize more and more that compared to the after war Western super-Chamberlains and the present day Chamberlains the real Chamberlain wasn't all that bad.
The whole situation stinks. "Polish corridor" stinks.
For Russia 'might makes right' is seen as acceptable. Just like it did in 1939 when they carved up Poland together with Germany.
It makes me realize more and more that compared to the after war Western super-Chamberlains and the present day Chamberlains the real Chamberlain wasn't all that bad.
Posted by: PhilD at July 18, 2018 07:12 PM (9kc5y)
168
The unfunny and ignorant Noah Trevor congratulated Africa for winning the World Cup because all of France's players were, in his opinion, dark, thus Africans not "French."
Posted by: Soothsayer -- Follow and Lick Me On Fakebook at July 18, 2018 07:10 PM (90V40)
Trevor Noah sounds a bit racist, if you ask me.
Posted by: Soothsayer -- Follow and Lick Me On Fakebook at July 18, 2018 07:10 PM (90V40)
Trevor Noah sounds a bit racist, if you ask me.
Posted by: Surfperch at July 18, 2018 07:12 PM (j6XEO)
169
Dubya also gave us "the religion of peace." That was unforgivable.
I think Ace meant to paste ^^ this 'ment by JJ, not mine.
Dubya also gave us "the religion of peace." That was unforgivable.
I think Ace meant to paste ^^ this 'ment by JJ, not mine.
Posted by: Soothsayer -- Follow and Lick Me On Fakebook at July 18, 2018 07:12 PM (90V40)
170
THE AoSHQ.
Posted by: eleven at July 18, 2018 07:12 PM (+lOpA)
171
Ace, your description a few weeks back that (IIRC) there is no news reporting anymore, only daily MediaOps by prog activists--that was BEYOND BRILLIANT. In a league with the superb "FailureTheatre" analysis of 2015!!
Posted by: JewishOdysseus at July 18, 2018 07:12 PM (+O9YB)
172
It doesn't make Trump's comments less fumbly.
You could just put a sticky at the top of this blog "...but Democrats would fuck it up worse." True enough.
You could just put a sticky at the top of this blog "...but Democrats would fuck it up worse." True enough.
Posted by: Dr. Spaceman at July 18, 2018 07:12 PM (HCeK1)
173
The only way to "win" the Iraq war was to follow the empire model of Rome and Britain and be ready and willing to establish a permanent garrison there. This country doesn't have the stomach for stabilizing the world, no matter how worthy the objective might be.
Posted by: Caliban at July 18, 2018 07:12 PM (QE8X6)
174
Which many people quickly pointed out that's like someone congratulating Africa when THE Golden State Warriors won the NBA championship.
Posted by: Soothsayer
Half the "black" members of the Warriors had white mothers who raised them. Sorta like, some guy, forget his name exactly.
Posted by: Soothsayer
Half the "black" members of the Warriors had white mothers who raised them. Sorta like, some guy, forget his name exactly.
Posted by: obscure punk lyrics reference at July 18, 2018 07:13 PM (c+2jX)
175
149
We cannot fight a war with our hands tied. That just gets our military killed.
Maybe I'm a bad person for this but I would rather sacrifice their civilians instead of our military.
Posted by: madamemayhem (uppity wench) at July 18, 2018 07:09 PM (myjNJ)
No, you're not a bad person. That used to be a no-brainer.
We cannot fight a war with our hands tied. That just gets our military killed.
Maybe I'm a bad person for this but I would rather sacrifice their civilians instead of our military.
Posted by: madamemayhem (uppity wench) at July 18, 2018 07:09 PM (myjNJ)
No, you're not a bad person. That used to be a no-brainer.
Posted by: rickl at July 18, 2018 07:13 PM (sdi6R)
176
58 Russian took over the Ukraine in the 1930's right after the Holodomor which they wiped out large portions of the population and replaced them with ethnic Russians
Posted by: Skip at July 18, 2018 06:53 PM (pHfeF)
I get that. However, is the USA going to try to restore "East Prussia", or the part of Poland the Soviets stole and forcibly removed Poles from, as well?
It has been 70 odd years.
Posted by: Skip at July 18, 2018 06:53 PM (pHfeF)
I get that. However, is the USA going to try to restore "East Prussia", or the part of Poland the Soviets stole and forcibly removed Poles from, as well?
It has been 70 odd years.
Posted by: Curmudgeon at July 18, 2018 07:13 PM (ujg0T)
177
A quick point I'd like to make: Russia isn't really the Soviet Union anymore. It's really just China's largest and most capable client state. Maybe we could peel them off, maybe we couldn't... I dunno.
Posted by: Thing From Snowy Mountain at July 18, 2018 07:13 PM (87ijN)
178
Newsletter AnOb?
Posted by: f'd at July 18, 2018 07:13 PM (UdKB7)
179
And start by going back to "War Department" instead of "Defense".
Words have meanings.
Posted by: sock_rat_eez - they are gaslighting us 24/365 at July 18, 2018 07:04 PM (yN/cP)
I agree. "War Department" is honest and straightforward.
"Defense Department" sounds weak and disingenuous.
Words have meanings.
Posted by: sock_rat_eez - they are gaslighting us 24/365 at July 18, 2018 07:04 PM (yN/cP)
I agree. "War Department" is honest and straightforward.
"Defense Department" sounds weak and disingenuous.
Posted by: Deplorable Jay Guevara, now with a spark of divinity at July 18, 2018 07:13 PM (ez9Rh)
180
Thought it was duvet. What is a divan?
Posted by: Cosmic Charlie at July 18, 2018 07:13 PM (PUmDY)
181
I have a credenza on my lanai.
Posted by: eleven at July 18, 2018 07:13 PM (+lOpA)
182
Not a fan of the Russian government but the far bigger threat to peace is our own. We are the international revolutionary power, with no compunction about killing and displacing populations to spread freedom and democracy (that is, corporate rule and gay pride parades). I love our country but "we" - the neocons and liberal establishment - are the problem.
----------------------
You are talking about our NeoCon Nepots. You will find very few of them actually carrying a rifle. They seem to command their armies from a laptop and when things go bad for them they find themselves employed with National Review until things blow over.
----------------------
You are talking about our NeoCon Nepots. You will find very few of them actually carrying a rifle. They seem to command their armies from a laptop and when things go bad for them they find themselves employed with National Review until things blow over.
Posted by: Puddin Head at July 18, 2018 07:14 PM (vV/gB)
183
fight wars in places that have hot chicks, good food, and a mean IQ at or about 100.
Which is why it was stupid for us to invade Quebec in 1812. Unless you really really like poutine.
Which is why it was stupid for us to invade Quebec in 1812. Unless you really really like poutine.
Posted by: Basement Cat at July 18, 2018 07:14 PM (3C9q2)
184
One could say Noah Trevor was implying that France "cucked" out their soccer team to Africa so they'd win.
One could say Noah Trevor was implying that France "cucked" out their soccer team to Africa so they'd win.
Posted by: Soothsayer -- Follow and Lick Me On Fakebook at July 18, 2018 07:14 PM (90V40)
185
Knoll is how I roll
Posted by: REDACTED at July 18, 2018 07:14 PM (TdS5t)
186
155 "Let them beat each other to death for all I care, frankly. "
Not our problem. Lazy fair and all that.
Posted by: The chicken at July 18, 2018 07:10 PM (UdKB7)
"Have we got a place for you!"
- - Kiev
Not our problem. Lazy fair and all that.
Posted by: The chicken at July 18, 2018 07:10 PM (UdKB7)
"Have we got a place for you!"
- - Kiev
Posted by: J.J. Sefton at July 18, 2018 07:14 PM (VM6ev)
187
172 God find us the person that could make cogent sense of the geopolitics of Russia/US over the past 70 years in the context of the howling and uneducated liberal mob.
Posted by: rammajamma at July 18, 2018 07:14 PM (xceTB)
188
And the whole "reset" policy was just another word for "amnesty".
Posted by: Gentlemen, this is democracy manifest at July 18, 2018 07:14 PM (LWu6U)
189
How many wars has Europe had?
Starting with the Greeks and Romans.
Europe has always been at war, starting with the Romans and the Greeks. And the Huns, and the Francs, and the Saxons, and the Carthenigans, and the Moors, and the ...
How many wars has Europe had?
Starting with the Greeks and Romans.
Europe has always been at war, starting with the Romans and the Greeks. And the Huns, and the Francs, and the Saxons, and the Carthenigans, and the Moors, and the ...
Posted by: Skandia Recluse at July 18, 2018 07:15 PM (roQNm)
190
Also, there was that Russian-Ukrainian treaty, guaranteed by the USA and the UK, where Russia and the Ukraine guaranteed each other frontiers in exchange of the Ukraine giving up its nuclear weapons. Putin treated that treaty as a piece of (toilet) paper (where have I heard that before).
This.
The Ukies were insane to take that treaty any more seriously than Putin did.
This.
The Ukies were insane to take that treaty any more seriously than Putin did.
Posted by: Deplorable Jay Guevara, now with a spark of divinity at July 18, 2018 07:15 PM (ez9Rh)
191
I keep my oboe in my highboy.
(15 quatloos to the first person who understands why that's funny.)
(15 quatloos to the first person who understands why that's funny.)
Posted by: obscure punk lyrics reference at July 18, 2018 07:15 PM (c+2jX)
192
btw, who gave the defunct Soviet Union billions in startup cash when they changed their name to the Russian Federation?
THE USA, was it not?
btw, who gave the defunct Soviet Union billions in startup cash when they changed their name to the Russian Federation?
THE USA, was it not?
Posted by: Soothsayer -- Follow and Lick Me On Fakebook at July 18, 2018 07:16 PM (90V40)
193
Off "obscure punk lyrics reference" sock!
Posted by: zombie at July 18, 2018 07:16 PM (c+2jX)
194
As I wrote above Russia took over Ukraine by population in the 1930's by replacing the native population. So many ' Ukrainians ' were more than happy when Russia recently invaded.
Posted by: Skip at July 18, 2018 07:16 PM (pHfeF)
195
180 Thought it was duvet. What is a divan?
Posted by: Cosmic Charlie at July 18, 2018 07:13 PM (PUmDY)
A divan is a sitting piece while a duvet is a cover of some other bedding
Posted by: Cosmic Charlie at July 18, 2018 07:13 PM (PUmDY)
A divan is a sitting piece while a duvet is a cover of some other bedding
Posted by: REDACTED at July 18, 2018 07:17 PM (TdS5t)
196
90 Every fucking poppy field in Afghanistan should have been burned and salted on day one.
===
See, this is what got the Neocons in trouble. The assumption that solution is _obvious_ and that we need to just _try_ harder and we can bend entire nations to our will.
Burn the poppies. Fentanyl just got that much more valuable.
How much agent orange do we dump on a country before we realize it's just not worth a damn to care?
===
See, this is what got the Neocons in trouble. The assumption that solution is _obvious_ and that we need to just _try_ harder and we can bend entire nations to our will.
Burn the poppies. Fentanyl just got that much more valuable.
How much agent orange do we dump on a country before we realize it's just not worth a damn to care?
Posted by: Dr. Spaceman at July 18, 2018 07:17 PM (HCeK1)
Posted by: Soothsayer -- Follow and Lick Me On Fakebook at July 18, 2018 07:17 PM (90V40)
198
154 Posted by: Deplorable Jay Guevara, now with a spark of divinity at July 18, 2018 07:10 PM (ez9Rh)
Yeah, I hear you. Ironically, Russian Jews embrace of socialism - before anyone knew better - was in response to Tsarist persecution. Nicholas was the initiator of the hideous "Protocols." It was also a warped interpretation of the Hebrew concept of charity.
And of course, because many were at the top of the Communist hierarchy, it was the entire Jewish people that got the blame for all the ensuing misery.
For such smart shape-shifting weather-controllers, we sure have bad luck.
Yeah, I hear you. Ironically, Russian Jews embrace of socialism - before anyone knew better - was in response to Tsarist persecution. Nicholas was the initiator of the hideous "Protocols." It was also a warped interpretation of the Hebrew concept of charity.
And of course, because many were at the top of the Communist hierarchy, it was the entire Jewish people that got the blame for all the ensuing misery.
For such smart shape-shifting weather-controllers, we sure have bad luck.
Posted by: J.J. Sefton at July 18, 2018 07:17 PM (VM6ev)
199
194 As I wrote above Russia took over Ukraine by population in the 1930's by replacing the native population. So many ' Ukrainians ' were more than happy when Russia recently invaded.
Posted by: Skip at July 18, 2018 07:16 PM (pHfeF)
And as I wrote above, how far back are we going to try to turn the clock? The Poles were forcibly removed from half of what was theirs, and were compensated only by removing Germans from places that were undeniably German for centuries, Nazi madness notwithstanding.
Posted by: Skip at July 18, 2018 07:16 PM (pHfeF)
And as I wrote above, how far back are we going to try to turn the clock? The Poles were forcibly removed from half of what was theirs, and were compensated only by removing Germans from places that were undeniably German for centuries, Nazi madness notwithstanding.
Posted by: Curmudgeon at July 18, 2018 07:18 PM (ujg0T)
200
Europe has always been at war, starting with the Romans and the Greeks. And the Huns, and the Francs, and the Saxons, and the Carthenigans, and the Moors, and the ...
Posted by: Skandia Recluse at July 18, 2018 07:15 PM (roQNm)
The longest peace in European history - the pax Americana. Which lasted until that unpleasantness in the erstwhile Yugoslavia.
Posted by: Skandia Recluse at July 18, 2018 07:15 PM (roQNm)
The longest peace in European history - the pax Americana. Which lasted until that unpleasantness in the erstwhile Yugoslavia.
Posted by: Deplorable Jay Guevara, now with a spark of divinity at July 18, 2018 07:18 PM (ez9Rh)
201
Depends on the situation. But where we've gone to war to "liberate the Iraqi people," for example, it's hard to wrap one's head around the idea of blowing up civilian centers just to get at the terrorists hiding among them.
Tactics have to support strategy, and strategy is determined by what goal you are trying to obtain. It is entirely possible to win battles and lose wars - just use tactics that are counterproductive to your end goals. Brutalizing a population that you need to win over to your side is a generally bad idea - otherwise, the South-east US would still be part of the British Empire.
I do believe that the memory of WWII has become a cargo cult.
Tactics have to support strategy, and strategy is determined by what goal you are trying to obtain. It is entirely possible to win battles and lose wars - just use tactics that are counterproductive to your end goals. Brutalizing a population that you need to win over to your side is a generally bad idea - otherwise, the South-east US would still be part of the British Empire.
I do believe that the memory of WWII has become a cargo cult.
Posted by: Grey Fox at July 18, 2018 07:18 PM (bZ7mE)
Posted by: Bertram Cabot, Jr. at July 18, 2018 07:18 PM (IqV8l)
203
It could be the Obama's efforts were never for America, but for Russia and/or Iran. He refused to give them anything but socks, when anti-tank weapons were needed.
There is no response from the 10 million Ukrainian dead from Soviet genocide in 1930 (or so), and the NY Slimes is still a commie stronghold here.
Maybe instead of dividing the US, we should start adding states ... or protectorates. Ukraine, Poland, Colombia, Taiwan ... parts of Africa? Why do we fight for them for free, we could colonize and save them from the commie bear. France and Italy might be up for grabs ... we could tax them directly, instead of hoping the pay their share of NATO (they never will). (/mostly sarc)
There is no response from the 10 million Ukrainian dead from Soviet genocide in 1930 (or so), and the NY Slimes is still a commie stronghold here.
Maybe instead of dividing the US, we should start adding states ... or protectorates. Ukraine, Poland, Colombia, Taiwan ... parts of Africa? Why do we fight for them for free, we could colonize and save them from the commie bear. France and Italy might be up for grabs ... we could tax them directly, instead of hoping the pay their share of NATO (they never will). (/mostly sarc)
Posted by: illiniwek at July 18, 2018 07:19 PM (bT8Z4)
204
ace, Thank you for the reply. I will fall back on what might be an erroneous position but Dresden was a clarifying point in the war. The Germans had no compunction about where they bombed.
We also have greater force multipliers now.
We also have greater force multipliers now.
Posted by: Ben Had at July 18, 2018 07:19 PM (8T7EF)
205
today is juicy-stuff ace day
Posted by: concrete girl at July 18, 2018 07:20 PM (BVthB)
206
The problem Ace failed to mention is that Ukraine is not a nation, has never been a nation and likely will never become one. In the west the Ukes want to join the EU, in the east the Ukes identify with Russia and in the middle is an imported Russian population imported by Stalin to forever squelch the idea of independence. Remember this while watching your own country become someone's new country.
Posted by: Puddin Head at July 18, 2018 07:20 PM (vV/gB)
207
I read it all. So you guys were spared idiotic comments from me for like 60+ comments. you're welcome.
Posted by: Cannibal Bob at July 18, 2018 07:20 PM (Zmczq)
208
197
I don't think I could name a single "punk" band or song.
Ramones??
Posted by: Soothsayer
No, the trivia question has nothing to do with punk lyrics -- that was just a leftover sock from a previous comment.
I don't think I could name a single "punk" band or song.
Ramones??
Posted by: Soothsayer
No, the trivia question has nothing to do with punk lyrics -- that was just a leftover sock from a previous comment.
Posted by: zombie at July 18, 2018 07:21 PM (c+2jX)
209
Is divan an ottoman?
Posted by: Cosmic Charlie at July 18, 2018 07:21 PM (PUmDY)
210
I don't think I could name a single "punk" band or song.
Ramones??
Posted by: Soothsayer -- Follow and Lick Me On Fakebook at July 18, 2018 07:17 PM (90V40)
I don't have a clue what "punk"is
Ramones??
Posted by: Soothsayer -- Follow and Lick Me On Fakebook at July 18, 2018 07:17 PM (90V40)
I don't have a clue what "punk"is
Posted by: REDACTED at July 18, 2018 07:21 PM (TdS5t)
211
Posted by: Deplorable Jay Guevara, now with a spark of divinity at July 18, 2018 07:10 PM (ez9Rh)
He starred in "Pink Flamingoes."
He starred in "Pink Flamingoes."
Posted by: J.J. Sefton at July 18, 2018 07:22 PM (VM6ev)
212
Hey zombie I think I can see you reflected in that belt buckle.
Posted by: f'd at July 18, 2018 07:22 PM (UdKB7)
213
>>I don't think I could name a single "punk" band or song.
If you aren't a fan of The Minutemen, you aren't a fan of music.
If you aren't a fan of The Minutemen, you aren't a fan of music.
Posted by: garrett at July 18, 2018 07:22 PM (J0CvP)
214
We are the fried of liberty everywhere but guarantor only of our own.
Posted by: Grump928(c) at July 18, 2018 07:22 PM (yQpMk)
215
209 Is divan an ottoman?
Posted by: Cosmic Charlie at July 18, 2018 07:21 PM (PUmDY)
He starred in "Pink Flamingoes."
Posted by: J.J. Sefton at July 18, 2018 07:22 PM (VM6ev)
Posted by: Cosmic Charlie at July 18, 2018 07:21 PM (PUmDY)
He starred in "Pink Flamingoes."
Posted by: J.J. Sefton at July 18, 2018 07:22 PM (VM6ev)
Posted by: J.J. Sefton at July 18, 2018 07:22 PM (VM6ev)
216
If 1 in 7 works, you won't have to.
Posted by: Caliban
Atom bombs and scrubbing bubbles.
Posted by: Bertram Cabot, Jr. at July 18, 2018 07:18 PM (IqV8l)
...........
Don't make me mad.
Posted by: Caliban
Atom bombs and scrubbing bubbles.
Posted by: Bertram Cabot, Jr. at July 18, 2018 07:18 PM (IqV8l)
...........
Don't make me mad.
Posted by: Tsar Bomba at July 18, 2018 07:23 PM (HgMAr)
Posted by: The chicken at July 18, 2018 07:23 PM (UdKB7)
218
I have a credenza on my lanai.
Posted by: eleven at July 18, 2018 07:13 PM (+lOpA)
You'd better get that looked at pronto.
Posted by: eleven at July 18, 2018 07:13 PM (+lOpA)
You'd better get that looked at pronto.
Posted by: Count de Monet at July 18, 2018 07:23 PM (QLvwG)
219
I keep my oboe in my highboy.
Funny because the English word "oboe" comes from the French hautbois, which means "high" and "wood"(wind instrument). Which someone who doesn't know French too well might pronounce as "highboy."
Funny because the English word "oboe" comes from the French hautbois, which means "high" and "wood"(wind instrument). Which someone who doesn't know French too well might pronounce as "highboy."
Posted by: Basement Cat at July 18, 2018 07:23 PM (3C9q2)
220
I fried liberty like fried chicken? Cuz I ike fried chicken.
Posted by: Puddin Head at July 18, 2018 07:23 PM (vV/gB)
221
If you aren't a fan of The Minutemen, you aren't a fan of music.
Posted by: garrett at July 18, 2018 07:22 PM (J0CvP)
Said one guy ever.
Posted by: garrett at July 18, 2018 07:22 PM (J0CvP)
Said one guy ever.
Posted by: eleven at July 18, 2018 07:23 PM (+lOpA)
Posted by: Grump928(c) at July 18, 2018 07:23 PM (yQpMk)
223
209 Is divan an ottoman?
Posted by: Cosmic Charlie at July 18, 2018 07:21 PM (PUmDY)
---
Don't say that word again or the Naked Fat Man will appear in the mid-morning art thread!
Posted by: Cosmic Charlie at July 18, 2018 07:21 PM (PUmDY)
---
Don't say that word again or the Naked Fat Man will appear in the mid-morning art thread!
Posted by: All Hail Eris, She-Wolf of the 'Ettes 'Ettes at July 18, 2018 07:24 PM (gUCYC)
224
The longest peace in European history - the pax Americana. Which lasted until that unpleasantness in the erstwhile Yugoslavia.
Posted by: Deplorable Jay Guevara, now with a spark of divinity at July 18, 2018 07:18 PM (ez9Rh)
In fairness, the former Yugoslavia was never in the American sphere of influence.
Posted by: Deplorable Jay Guevara, now with a spark of divinity at July 18, 2018 07:18 PM (ez9Rh)
In fairness, the former Yugoslavia was never in the American sphere of influence.
Posted by: Curmudgeon at July 18, 2018 07:24 PM (ujg0T)
225
209 Is divan an ottoman?
Posted by: Cosmic Charlie at July 18, 2018 07:21 PM (PUmDY)
No, an ottoman is like a stool or a pouf
Posted by: Cosmic Charlie at July 18, 2018 07:21 PM (PUmDY)
No, an ottoman is like a stool or a pouf
Posted by: REDACTED at July 18, 2018 07:24 PM (TdS5t)
226
>>>204 ace, Thank you for the reply. I will fall back on what might be an erroneous position but Dresden was a clarifying point in the war. The Germans had no compunction about where they bombed.
in that kind of war, you could do that -- back then.
I'm not sure the media or left would ever allow us to really fight like that, even for our survival, today.
in that kind of war, you could do that -- back then.
I'm not sure the media or left would ever allow us to really fight like that, even for our survival, today.
Posted by: ace at July 18, 2018 07:24 PM (PA9oZ)
227
218 I have a credenza on my lanai.
Posted by: eleven at July 18, 2018 07:13 PM (+lOpA)
You'd better get that looked at pronto.
Posted by: Count de Monet at July 18, 2018 07:23 PM (QLvwG)
Itches like a bitch.
Posted by: eleven at July 18, 2018 07:13 PM (+lOpA)
You'd better get that looked at pronto.
Posted by: Count de Monet at July 18, 2018 07:23 PM (QLvwG)
Itches like a bitch.
Posted by: eleven at July 18, 2018 07:24 PM (+lOpA)
228
Pompous pronouncements lose power when misspelled.
Posted by: Grump928(c) at July 18, 2018 07:24 PM (yQpMk)
229
I think there are some areas in which 100% realism holds sway (now that TFG is out; before that I wasn't at all sure) --
If you nuke US property, you can expect very sunny skies in the very near future, even if it is nighttime.
If you take out all our satellites in space, same thing.
A bioweapon attack, say I'm 98% certain.
And it rapidly goes down from there.
If you nuke US property, you can expect very sunny skies in the very near future, even if it is nighttime.
If you take out all our satellites in space, same thing.
A bioweapon attack, say I'm 98% certain.
And it rapidly goes down from there.
Posted by: GnuBreed at July 18, 2018 07:25 PM (0ogQG)
230
I don't have a clue what "punk"is
Posted by: REDACTED
"Punk" is a musical genre, originally popular between 1976 and 1981, which emphasized rebellion in lyrics, simplicity in chord structure, and speed in tempo. The milder pop-oriented version of it was called "New Wave." After ~1981, it was revived various times, with 2nd and 3rd and 4th generation punk bands. It arose originally as a reaction to stadium rock and disco.
Posted by: REDACTED
"Punk" is a musical genre, originally popular between 1976 and 1981, which emphasized rebellion in lyrics, simplicity in chord structure, and speed in tempo. The milder pop-oriented version of it was called "New Wave." After ~1981, it was revived various times, with 2nd and 3rd and 4th generation punk bands. It arose originally as a reaction to stadium rock and disco.
Posted by: zombie at July 18, 2018 07:25 PM (c+2jX)
Posted by: Grump928(c) at July 18, 2018 07:25 PM (yQpMk)
232
209
Is divan an ottoman?
Posted by: Cosmic Charlie at July 18, 2018 07:21 PM (PUmDY)
an ottoman is a living room accessory to put your feet on, like at the end of a chair. Heidi bought a big round one on wheels that she can roll around the living-room because she thought it was cool.
Is divan an ottoman?
Posted by: Cosmic Charlie at July 18, 2018 07:21 PM (PUmDY)
an ottoman is a living room accessory to put your feet on, like at the end of a chair. Heidi bought a big round one on wheels that she can roll around the living-room because she thought it was cool.
Posted by: Cannibal Bob at July 18, 2018 07:25 PM (Zmczq)
233
" I have a credenza on my lanai.
Posted by: eleven at July 18, 2018 07:13 PM (+lOpA)
You'd better get that looked at pronto"
It might turn into a pune'e.
Posted by: eleven at July 18, 2018 07:13 PM (+lOpA)
You'd better get that looked at pronto"
It might turn into a pune'e.
Posted by: f'd at July 18, 2018 07:25 PM (UdKB7)
Posted by: Cosmic Charlie at July 18, 2018 07:25 PM (PUmDY)
235
And of course, because many were at the top of the Communist hierarchy, it was the entire Jewish people that got the blame for all the ensuing misery.
For such smart shape-shifting weather-controllers, we sure have bad luck.
Posted by: J.J. Sefton at July 18, 2018 07:17 PM (VM6ev)
It's not bad luck: it's prejudice against a small ethnically distinct group that has historically been identifiable, and therefore ripe for being made a scapegoat.
Paul Johnson, in his "History of the Jews," attributes Russian/Ukrainian anti-Semitism to the practice of landlords to use Jewish overseers on their manors to, inter alia, collect payments, because they were literate.
But that doesn't explain anti-Semitism elsewhere (e.g., Spain and Portugal during the Inquisition). Ironically, pre-Nazi Germany was probably the country most favorably disposed toward Jews of any country in Europe.
Ironically, Russian Jews embrace of socialism - before anyone knew better - was in response to Tsarist persecution.
That may be true, but it's hard (at least for me) to understand why that embrace continued after Jews emigrated to America. No Tsar, no pogroms, etc. here, and for recent arrivals to agitate for fundamental change is a recipe for engendering unpopularity, just like Muslims stepping off the plane here and wanting to impose sharia.
So I don't get that one.
For such smart shape-shifting weather-controllers, we sure have bad luck.
Posted by: J.J. Sefton at July 18, 2018 07:17 PM (VM6ev)
It's not bad luck: it's prejudice against a small ethnically distinct group that has historically been identifiable, and therefore ripe for being made a scapegoat.
Paul Johnson, in his "History of the Jews," attributes Russian/Ukrainian anti-Semitism to the practice of landlords to use Jewish overseers on their manors to, inter alia, collect payments, because they were literate.
But that doesn't explain anti-Semitism elsewhere (e.g., Spain and Portugal during the Inquisition). Ironically, pre-Nazi Germany was probably the country most favorably disposed toward Jews of any country in Europe.
Ironically, Russian Jews embrace of socialism - before anyone knew better - was in response to Tsarist persecution.
That may be true, but it's hard (at least for me) to understand why that embrace continued after Jews emigrated to America. No Tsar, no pogroms, etc. here, and for recent arrivals to agitate for fundamental change is a recipe for engendering unpopularity, just like Muslims stepping off the plane here and wanting to impose sharia.
So I don't get that one.
Posted by: Deplorable Jay Guevara, now with a spark of divinity at July 18, 2018 07:26 PM (ez9Rh)
236
Excellent pieces today Ace - reminds me of your writing style from 10+ years ago. Where do we draw the lines? What are the pros/cons? Interesting discussions in gray areas.
If we "support" Montenegro what does that mean? For a war you need a clear objective for when it's "done" - like Bush I when he left Iraq after Sadam's army was out of Kuwait. Enough of the occupying of countries like Afghanistan with no exit because there is no clear goal. When would we be "done" if we sent troops to Montenegro because Russia (or Serbia or whoever) was causing some trouble there? We keep getting into these half-finished wars because there is no "end" defined. But that doesn't seem to bother the neocons.
If we "support" Montenegro what does that mean? For a war you need a clear objective for when it's "done" - like Bush I when he left Iraq after Sadam's army was out of Kuwait. Enough of the occupying of countries like Afghanistan with no exit because there is no clear goal. When would we be "done" if we sent troops to Montenegro because Russia (or Serbia or whoever) was causing some trouble there? We keep getting into these half-finished wars because there is no "end" defined. But that doesn't seem to bother the neocons.
Posted by: Tommy at July 18, 2018 07:26 PM (yEAdf)
237
They used to call antique poufs "vides" or something along those lines
Posted by: REDACTED at July 18, 2018 07:26 PM (TdS5t)
Posted by: garrett at July 18, 2018 07:26 PM (J0CvP)
Posted by: Grump928(c) at July 18, 2018 07:27 PM (yQpMk)
Posted by: garrett at July 18, 2018 07:27 PM (J0CvP)
241
No, an ottoman is like a stool or a pouf
Posted by: REDACTED at July 18, 2018 07:24 PM (TdS5
I thought a pouf was one of those soap enhancer things. they are round, made of mesh and have a loop to hang in the shower.
Posted by: REDACTED at July 18, 2018 07:24 PM (TdS5
I thought a pouf was one of those soap enhancer things. they are round, made of mesh and have a loop to hang in the shower.
Posted by: Cannibal Bob at July 18, 2018 07:28 PM (Zmczq)
242
If you aren't a fan of The Minutemen, you aren't a fan of music.
Posted by: garrett at July 18, 2018 07:22 PM (J0CvP)
Our band could be your life....
Real names be the proof....
Yes, the late Dennis Dale Boon was full of leftist shit at times, but still a great amateur musician.
Posted by: garrett at July 18, 2018 07:22 PM (J0CvP)
Our band could be your life....
Real names be the proof....
Yes, the late Dennis Dale Boon was full of leftist shit at times, but still a great amateur musician.
Posted by: Curmudgeon at July 18, 2018 07:28 PM (ujg0T)
243
Go buy 'Double Nickels on the Dime'.
Best Double LP ever made.
Posted by: garrett at July 18, 2018 07:26 PM (J0CvP)
Ahem.
Best Double LP ever made.
Posted by: garrett at July 18, 2018 07:26 PM (J0CvP)
Ahem.
Posted by: Endless Summer at July 18, 2018 07:28 PM (QLvwG)
244
Heidi bought a big round one on wheels that she can roll around the living-room because she thought it was cool.
Posted by: Cannibal Bob at July 18, 2018 07:25 PM (Zmczq)
I'm detecting some skepticism.
Posted by: Cannibal Bob at July 18, 2018 07:25 PM (Zmczq)
I'm detecting some skepticism.
Posted by: eleven at July 18, 2018 07:28 PM (+lOpA)
245
236 Posted by: Tommy at July 18, 2018 07:26 PM (yEAdf)
Actually, "Gray Areas" would've been great name for the blog.
Actually, "Gray Areas" would've been great name for the blog.
Posted by: J.J. Sefton at July 18, 2018 07:28 PM (VM6ev)
246
In fairness, the former Yugoslavia was never in the American sphere of influence.
Posted by: Curmudgeon at July 18, 2018 07:24 PM (ujg0T)
True, and a good point.
Posted by: Curmudgeon at July 18, 2018 07:24 PM (ujg0T)
True, and a good point.
Posted by: Deplorable Jay Guevara, now with a spark of divinity at July 18, 2018 07:28 PM (ez9Rh)
Posted by: garrett at July 18, 2018 07:28 PM (J0CvP)
248
We could have told you this is how the US would behave.
Posted by: Hungary, Circa 1956 at July 18, 2018 07:28 PM (H5knJ)
249
The problem Ace failed to mention is that Ukraine is not a nation, has never been a nation and likely will never become one. In the west the Ukes want to join the EU, in the east the Ukes identify with Russia and in the middle is an imported Russian population imported by Stalin to forever squelch the idea of independence. Remember this while watching your own country become someone's new country.
Posted by: Puddin Head at July 18, 2018 07:20 PM (vV/gB)
Finally. One correction , the middle is Kiev. Historically - Kievan Russia back to the time of Vladimir, Olga & Igor. Ukranians are European version of Palestinians. With the same habits. There is no such thing as "The Ukraine", in Russian or any other language. Just a poor translation, probably. Skip - 40% of Ukraine was always native Russian. No need to import. More : the sothern ports were Russian - taken from the Turks 300 years ago - including Crimea.
Posted by: Puddin Head at July 18, 2018 07:20 PM (vV/gB)
Finally. One correction , the middle is Kiev. Historically - Kievan Russia back to the time of Vladimir, Olga & Igor. Ukranians are European version of Palestinians. With the same habits. There is no such thing as "The Ukraine", in Russian or any other language. Just a poor translation, probably. Skip - 40% of Ukraine was always native Russian. No need to import. More : the sothern ports were Russian - taken from the Turks 300 years ago - including Crimea.
Posted by: runner at July 18, 2018 07:28 PM (bUjCl)
250
219 I keep my oboe in my highboy.
Funny because the English word "oboe" comes from the French hautbois, which means "high" and "wood"(wind instrument). Which someone who doesn't know French too well might pronounce as "highboy."
Posted by: Basement Cat
You win the quatloos for being 90% correct.
The actual answer is what you said, but even funnier:
The English word "oboe" comes from the French hautbois, which means "high" and "wood."
The English word "highboy" comes from the French hautbois, which means "high" and "wood."
It's the same word, bastardized in two different ways!
(All the linguists in the house double over with laughter.)
Funny because the English word "oboe" comes from the French hautbois, which means "high" and "wood"(wind instrument). Which someone who doesn't know French too well might pronounce as "highboy."
Posted by: Basement Cat
You win the quatloos for being 90% correct.
The actual answer is what you said, but even funnier:
The English word "oboe" comes from the French hautbois, which means "high" and "wood."
The English word "highboy" comes from the French hautbois, which means "high" and "wood."
It's the same word, bastardized in two different ways!
(All the linguists in the house double over with laughter.)
Posted by: zombie at July 18, 2018 07:28 PM (c+2jX)
251
Okay before I go pull the covers over my head and give up on today entirely, I just want to say that I love the term crabwalk.
It's just so evocative.
It's just so evocative.
Posted by: alexthechick - Superelite Ragebunny. Hopping all around. at July 18, 2018 07:28 PM (dEQP3)
Posted by: f'd at July 18, 2018 07:28 PM (UdKB7)
253
Sideboard equals credenza, right?
Posted by: Cosmic Charlie at July 18, 2018 07:28 PM (PUmDY)
254
But that doesn't explain anti-Semitism elsewhere (e.g., Spain and Portugal during the Inquisition). Ironically, pre-Nazi Germany was probably the country most favorably disposed toward Jews of any country in Europe.
----------------------
Weren't Jews involved in the slavery business on behalf of the Muslims on the Iberian Peninsula?
----------------------
Weren't Jews involved in the slavery business on behalf of the Muslims on the Iberian Peninsula?
Posted by: Puddin Head at July 18, 2018 07:29 PM (vV/gB)
Posted by: J.J. Sefton at July 18, 2018 07:29 PM (VM6ev)
256
How do you know if bleu cheese has gone bad? It smells funny and in covered with mold when you buy it.
Posted by: josephistan at July 18, 2018 07:29 PM (Izzlo)
257
>>Yes, the late Dennis Dale Boon was full of leftist shit at times, but still a great amateur musician.
Yep. D. Boone was a kid right up until he died.
But, he was a fearless guitar player. Guy played with a freedom and candor few ever achieve.
Yep. D. Boone was a kid right up until he died.
But, he was a fearless guitar player. Guy played with a freedom and candor few ever achieve.
Posted by: garrett at July 18, 2018 07:29 PM (J0CvP)
Posted by: Guy Mohawk at July 18, 2018 07:29 PM (r+sAi)
259
I thought a pouf was one of those soap enhancer things. they are round, made of mesh and have a loop to hang in the shower.
Posted by: Cannibal Bob at July 18, 2018 07:28 PM (Zmczq)
No, However if you have a poof in your shower, well, ya got probs
Posted by: Cannibal Bob at July 18, 2018 07:28 PM (Zmczq)
No, However if you have a poof in your shower, well, ya got probs
Posted by: REDACTED at July 18, 2018 07:29 PM (TdS5t)
260
198 Posted by: J.J. Sefton at July 18, 2018 07:17 PM (VM6ev)
Yeah, I hear you. Ironically, Russian Jews embrace of socialism - before anyone knew better - was in response to Tsarist persecution. Nicholas was the initiator of the hideous "Protocols." It was also a warped interpretation of the Hebrew concept of charity.
And of course, because many were at the top of the Communist hierarchy, it was the entire Jewish people that got the blame for all the ensuing misery.
For such smart shape-shifting weather-controllers, we sure have bad luck.
===
Just even arguing about the Jew's "influence" in the Soviet Days is a distraction that gets you arguing on the anti-Semite's ground.
The Chekist mindset is what rules Russia now. And it is useful for them to stir up anti-Semitism online through their puppet accounts and bots. Russians were brainwashed against bankers and capitalism for three generations, and they're not giving up that vector for criticizing the West. Just that Jews are now a convenient target for that strategy, rather than attacking "fascists" which was the party line back in Soviet days.
Mentioning "Jews" in this conversation is a distraction. On purpose. For the benefit of whom? (Putin, eventually.)
Yeah, I hear you. Ironically, Russian Jews embrace of socialism - before anyone knew better - was in response to Tsarist persecution. Nicholas was the initiator of the hideous "Protocols." It was also a warped interpretation of the Hebrew concept of charity.
And of course, because many were at the top of the Communist hierarchy, it was the entire Jewish people that got the blame for all the ensuing misery.
For such smart shape-shifting weather-controllers, we sure have bad luck.
===
Just even arguing about the Jew's "influence" in the Soviet Days is a distraction that gets you arguing on the anti-Semite's ground.
The Chekist mindset is what rules Russia now. And it is useful for them to stir up anti-Semitism online through their puppet accounts and bots. Russians were brainwashed against bankers and capitalism for three generations, and they're not giving up that vector for criticizing the West. Just that Jews are now a convenient target for that strategy, rather than attacking "fascists" which was the party line back in Soviet days.
Mentioning "Jews" in this conversation is a distraction. On purpose. For the benefit of whom? (Putin, eventually.)
Posted by: Dr. Spaceman at July 18, 2018 07:29 PM (HCeK1)
Posted by: JackStraw at July 18, 2018 07:30 PM (/tuJf)
262
WHat happened to Yugoslavia is an atrocity of massive proportion, sold as a humanitarian act. Total bullshit.
Posted by: runner at July 18, 2018 07:30 PM (bUjCl)
263
Was this mentioned in the comments today?
"The California Supreme Court decided Wednesday to remove a measure aimed at dividing California into three states from the November ballot"
https://tinyurl.com/ycygptyv
What the hell? They don't even allow it to be voted on. In other words, the pre-unconstitutional division of the CA SC nipped this one in the bud.
"The California Supreme Court decided Wednesday to remove a measure aimed at dividing California into three states from the November ballot"
https://tinyurl.com/ycygptyv
What the hell? They don't even allow it to be voted on. In other words, the pre-unconstitutional division of the CA SC nipped this one in the bud.
Posted by: Chairman LMAO at July 18, 2018 07:30 PM (wBMGD)
264
Having read the content, I'll just say "Great post, man."
Now I'll read the comments for a few minutes before playing GTA 5........
Hey, it was a tough day at work!!!
Now I'll read the comments for a few minutes before playing GTA 5........
Hey, it was a tough day at work!!!
Posted by: SSBN 656 (G) at July 18, 2018 07:30 PM (5AVMW)
Posted by: garrett at July 18, 2018 07:30 PM (J0CvP)
266
With open borders being the globalist fetish of the decade, who gives two fucks about Russia and Ukraine. Walk your fucking asses to the EU.
Posted by: Fritz at July 18, 2018 07:30 PM (RfYYV)
267
I think it should be apparent by now that the American people lose interest in a long, drawn-out, open-ended war. Wars like the Mexican War and the Spanish-American War were pretty quick affairs. The Civil War lasted four years and some Northerners (OK, mostly Democrats) were calling for a negotiated peace after the first couple years.
Many Americans didn't want to get involved in WWI, but Wilson's fascist administration came down like a ton of bricks on the war's opponents. Still, our involvement was not very long.
We were in WWII for less than four years from Pearl Harbor to VJ-Day. Support remained high, but the Pacific battles got bloodier and bloodier in 1945. If the atomic bombs had not existed and we had to invade Japan, I believe that support would have started crumbling. By that time the Japanese military was no longer a threat to American possessions or the West Coast, and a movement would have arisen to just declare victory and go home, as we suffered greater and greater casualties for less territory gained.
Many Americans didn't want to get involved in WWI, but Wilson's fascist administration came down like a ton of bricks on the war's opponents. Still, our involvement was not very long.
We were in WWII for less than four years from Pearl Harbor to VJ-Day. Support remained high, but the Pacific battles got bloodier and bloodier in 1945. If the atomic bombs had not existed and we had to invade Japan, I believe that support would have started crumbling. By that time the Japanese military was no longer a threat to American possessions or the West Coast, and a movement would have arisen to just declare victory and go home, as we suffered greater and greater casualties for less territory gained.
Posted by: rickl at July 18, 2018 07:31 PM (sdi6R)
268
260 Posted by: Dr. Spaceman at July 18, 2018 07:29 PM (HCeK1)
And that takes us back to my original point with Jay.
And that takes us back to my original point with Jay.
Posted by: J.J. Sefton at July 18, 2018 07:31 PM (VM6ev)
269
256 How do you know if bleu cheese has gone bad? It smells funny and in covered with mold when you buy it.
Posted by: josephistan at July 18, 2018 07:29 PM (Izzlo)
Compare it your neighbors schmundie. If it smell worse too sit, the cheese not the schmundie, although you can toss a schmundie
Posted by: josephistan at July 18, 2018 07:29 PM (Izzlo)
Compare it your neighbors schmundie. If it smell worse too sit, the cheese not the schmundie, although you can toss a schmundie
Posted by: REDACTED at July 18, 2018 07:31 PM (TdS5t)
270
Was freaking out, but no one gives a crap about edibles leaving CO.
Posted by: Cosmic Charlie at July 18, 2018 07:31 PM (PUmDY)
271
It's the same word, bastardized in two different ways!
(All the linguists in the house double over with laughter.)
Posted by: zombie at July 18, 2018 07:28 PM (c+2jX)
(All the linguists in the house double over with laughter.)
Posted by: zombie at July 18, 2018 07:28 PM (c+2jX)
Posted by: SSBN 656 (G) at July 18, 2018 07:32 PM (5AVMW)
272
Wish you were here is the greatest prog rock single album in history. Those who disagree suck cock by choice.
Posted by: Grump928(c) at July 18, 2018 07:32 PM (yQpMk)
Posted by: Anachronda at July 18, 2018 07:32 PM (NmR1a)
274
The neocons only goal/endgame is a global government with them running the whole enchilida.
Endless wars, human deaths and suffering, breaking the bank here while taking their huge skin off the top are features, not bugs.
And it blows me away that anyone can still think any of the Bushs' have a single decent bone in their bodies.
Endless wars, human deaths and suffering, breaking the bank here while taking their huge skin off the top are features, not bugs.
And it blows me away that anyone can still think any of the Bushs' have a single decent bone in their bodies.
Posted by: teej at July 18, 2018 07:32 PM (Z7oqE)
275
263 Was this mentioned in the comments today?
"The California Supreme Court decided Wednesday to remove a measure aimed at dividing California into three states from the November ballot"
https://tinyurl.com/ycygptyv
What the hell? They don't even allow it to be voted on. In other words, the pre-unconstitutional division of the CA SC nipped this one in the bud.
Posted by: Chairman LMAO at July 18, 2018 07:30 PM (wBMGD)
If you want to divide California politically, the REAL division is Coast vs. Interior, not North vs. South.
"The California Supreme Court decided Wednesday to remove a measure aimed at dividing California into three states from the November ballot"
https://tinyurl.com/ycygptyv
What the hell? They don't even allow it to be voted on. In other words, the pre-unconstitutional division of the CA SC nipped this one in the bud.
Posted by: Chairman LMAO at July 18, 2018 07:30 PM (wBMGD)
If you want to divide California politically, the REAL division is Coast vs. Interior, not North vs. South.
Posted by: Curmudgeon at July 18, 2018 07:32 PM (ujg0T)
276
My administration had a muscular and robust, yet loving foreign policy, the so-called "Love Muscle" approach.
It is the policy of manly men, secure in their manliness.
The suggestion that we set the Middle East on fire, then got bored and went to the mall, is unworthy of a response.
It is the policy of manly men, secure in their manliness.
The suggestion that we set the Middle East on fire, then got bored and went to the mall, is unworthy of a response.
Posted by: Hussein Soetoro, B.A., J.D. C.-in-C., B.F.D. at July 18, 2018 07:32 PM (ritOW)
277
244
Heidi bought a big round one on wheels that she can roll around the living-room because she thought it was cool.
Posted by: Cannibal Bob at July 18, 2018 07:25 PM (Zmczq)
I'm detecting some skepticism.
Posted by: eleven at July 18, 2018 07:28 PM (+lOpA)
Lol...we have a small living room and it takes up a lot of room. You can push it like 3 feet in either direction. Its well...kinda ridiculous but you didn't hear that from me. Oh and the cats like tit so there's that.
Heidi bought a big round one on wheels that she can roll around the living-room because she thought it was cool.
Posted by: Cannibal Bob at July 18, 2018 07:25 PM (Zmczq)
I'm detecting some skepticism.
Posted by: eleven at July 18, 2018 07:28 PM (+lOpA)
Lol...we have a small living room and it takes up a lot of room. You can push it like 3 feet in either direction. Its well...kinda ridiculous but you didn't hear that from me. Oh and the cats like tit so there's that.
Posted by: Cannibal Bob at July 18, 2018 07:32 PM (Zmczq)
278
Sorry, I meant Toss IT
Posted by: REDACTED at July 18, 2018 07:32 PM (TdS5t)
279
I don't think we realllly want three Californias.
Posted by: eleven at July 18, 2018 07:32 PM (+lOpA)
280
256 How do you know if bleu cheese has gone bad? It smells funny and in covered with mold when you buy it.
Posted by: josephistan at July 18, 2018 07:29 PM (Izzlo)
Open the jar, and if you immediately throw up and pass out, it's got about a week left.
Posted by: josephistan at July 18, 2018 07:29 PM (Izzlo)
Open the jar, and if you immediately throw up and pass out, it's got about a week left.
Posted by: SSBN 656 (G) at July 18, 2018 07:33 PM (5AVMW)
281
SO, why do we need NATO ? It made sense when there were two spheres of influence, but now ? Seems like a money laundering scheme, now. EUropeans want to form their own army. Let them.
Posted by: runner at July 18, 2018 07:33 PM (bUjCl)
282
>>Wish you were here is the greatest prog rock single album in history.
The Damnation of Adam Blessing
The Damnation of Adam Blessing
Posted by: garrett at July 18, 2018 07:33 PM (J0CvP)
283
JS: Boulder shows were awesome.
Posted by: Cosmic Charlie at July 18, 2018 07:33 PM (PUmDY)
284
The political limitations of the modern Republican party are not the boundaries of the United States itself. History proves otherwise.
I feel I was right. This was bullshit.
You want to start the debate with a massive concession-- that we agree that nobody could have done better than Bush or Romney in running a campaign.
You know what?
We don't make that concession.
We will formulate the interests and capabilities of the United States without reference to the Republican Party--- and then we will hold the Republican Party accountable for upholding those interests.
We will not say, as you'd prefer, that we take the political failure of the GOP as a factor, and limit our policy to match it.
If that destroys the modern Republican party, then, good riddance. I know no reason why a nation of 300 million should be defined by 2000 hacks.
I feel I was right. This was bullshit.
You want to start the debate with a massive concession-- that we agree that nobody could have done better than Bush or Romney in running a campaign.
You know what?
We don't make that concession.
We will formulate the interests and capabilities of the United States without reference to the Republican Party--- and then we will hold the Republican Party accountable for upholding those interests.
We will not say, as you'd prefer, that we take the political failure of the GOP as a factor, and limit our policy to match it.
If that destroys the modern Republican party, then, good riddance. I know no reason why a nation of 300 million should be defined by 2000 hacks.
Posted by: ChrisBalsz at July 18, 2018 07:33 PM (K5qvX)
285
A divan is like a davenport with no back
Posted by: Balrog of Morgoth at July 18, 2018 07:33 PM (ARUHl)
286
(All the linguists in the house double over with laughter.)
Glad to know grad school was good for a few things other than the degree.
Glad to know grad school was good for a few things other than the degree.
Posted by: Basement Cat at July 18, 2018 07:34 PM (3C9q2)
287
279 I don't think we realllly want three Californias.
Posted by: eleven at July 18, 2018 07:32 PM (+lOpA)
Not the way they split it up. LA, SD and SF would've been the capitals of each state. Thats all we need. 6 more Democrat Senators.
Fuck that. Those three cities should be ONE state all by itself along with Sacramento.
Posted by: eleven at July 18, 2018 07:32 PM (+lOpA)
Not the way they split it up. LA, SD and SF would've been the capitals of each state. Thats all we need. 6 more Democrat Senators.
Fuck that. Those three cities should be ONE state all by itself along with Sacramento.
Posted by: J.J. Sefton at July 18, 2018 07:34 PM (VM6ev)
288
270
Was freaking out, but no one gives a crap about edibles leaving CO.
Posted by: Cosmic Charlie at July 18, 2018 07:31 PM (PUmDY)
good to know. was a question I was going to ask here.
Was freaking out, but no one gives a crap about edibles leaving CO.
Posted by: Cosmic Charlie at July 18, 2018 07:31 PM (PUmDY)
good to know. was a question I was going to ask here.
Posted by: Cannibal Bob at July 18, 2018 07:34 PM (Zmczq)
289
Oh and the cats like tit so there's that.
Posted by: Cannibal Bob at July 18, 2018 07:32 PM (Zmczq)
Yes we doooo......
Posted by: Cannibal Bob at July 18, 2018 07:32 PM (Zmczq)
Yes we doooo......
Posted by: Horny Cats at July 18, 2018 07:34 PM (5AVMW)
290
"The California Supreme Court decided Wednesday to remove a measure aimed at dividing California into three states from the November ballot"
https://tinyurl.com/ycygptyv
What the hell? They don't even allow it to be voted on. In other words, the pre-unconstitutional division of the CA SC nipped this one in the bud.
Posted by: Chairman LMAO at July 18, 2018 07:30 PM (wBMGD)
---------------
It was mentioned in the comments, but not discussed much.
IMO it was yet more Judicial overreach, however, I was happy to hear that we would have no chance of getting 4 more Cali Dem Senators.
https://tinyurl.com/ycygptyv
What the hell? They don't even allow it to be voted on. In other words, the pre-unconstitutional division of the CA SC nipped this one in the bud.
Posted by: Chairman LMAO at July 18, 2018 07:30 PM (wBMGD)
---------------
It was mentioned in the comments, but not discussed much.
IMO it was yet more Judicial overreach, however, I was happy to hear that we would have no chance of getting 4 more Cali Dem Senators.
Posted by: Calm Mentor at July 18, 2018 07:34 PM (yJ9Jf)
291
>> I don't think we realllly want three Californias.
As long as all 3 are behind The Wall, I will allow it.
As long as all 3 are behind The Wall, I will allow it.
Posted by: garrett at July 18, 2018 07:35 PM (J0CvP)
292
267 I think it should be apparent by now that the American people lose interest in a long, drawn-out, open-ended war. Wars like the Mexican War and the Spanish-American War were pretty quick affairs. The Civil War lasted four years and some Northerners (OK, mostly Democrats) were calling for a negotiated peace after the first couple years.
Many Americans didn't want to get involved in WWI, but Wilson's fascist administration came down like a ton of bricks on the war's opponents. Still, our involvement was not very long.
We were in WWII for less than four years from Pearl Harbor to VJ-Day. Support remained high, but the Pacific battles got bloodier and bloodier in 1945. If the atomic bombs had not existed and we had to invade Japan, I believe that support would have started crumbling. By that time the Japanese military was no longer a threat to American possessions or the West Coast, and a movement would have arisen to just declare victory and go home, as we suffered greater and greater casualties for less territory gained.
Posted by: rickl at July 18, 2018 07:31 PM (sdi6R)
Bingo. Americans are not ones for protracted war.
Ironically, had LBJ gone all-in for South Vietnam from 1965-1967, invading "off limits" border regions and all, he might have eked out a victory.
Many Americans didn't want to get involved in WWI, but Wilson's fascist administration came down like a ton of bricks on the war's opponents. Still, our involvement was not very long.
We were in WWII for less than four years from Pearl Harbor to VJ-Day. Support remained high, but the Pacific battles got bloodier and bloodier in 1945. If the atomic bombs had not existed and we had to invade Japan, I believe that support would have started crumbling. By that time the Japanese military was no longer a threat to American possessions or the West Coast, and a movement would have arisen to just declare victory and go home, as we suffered greater and greater casualties for less territory gained.
Posted by: rickl at July 18, 2018 07:31 PM (sdi6R)
Bingo. Americans are not ones for protracted war.
Ironically, had LBJ gone all-in for South Vietnam from 1965-1967, invading "off limits" border regions and all, he might have eked out a victory.
Posted by: Curmudgeon at July 18, 2018 07:35 PM (ujg0T)
293
ace, very true with exception. The Tribal areas in Afghanistan would be a prime target for a strike of massive proportion.
I keep remembering the Yazidi that said we will die willingly if you will kill all of them.
I keep remembering the Yazidi that said we will die willingly if you will kill all of them.
Posted by: Ben Had at July 18, 2018 07:35 PM (8T7EF)
294
rickl, there are arguments that we did declare victory and go home re Japan. the surrender agreement with Germany was over a blasted ruin with no legitimate government - it all.had to be rebuilt. Japan kept her Emperor and other systems of government. Japan didnt even apologise. the emperor just had to agree that he was done being Japan's god and done with invading non Japanese land.
Posted by: Boulder t'hobo at July 18, 2018 07:35 PM (NlLAv)
295
'Oh and the cats like tit so there's that.'
In my experience, cats love to shred ottomans. Except for this big leather one I have here. The can't get a grip on it.
Also, I like tit too.
In my experience, cats love to shred ottomans. Except for this big leather one I have here. The can't get a grip on it.
Also, I like tit too.
Posted by: f'd at July 18, 2018 07:35 PM (UdKB7)
296
259 I thought a pouf was one of those soap enhancer things. they are round, made of mesh and have a loop to hang in the shower.
Posted by: Cannibal Bob at July 18, 2018 07:28 PM (Zmczq)
Let me explain the difference
Posted by: Cannibal Bob at July 18, 2018 07:28 PM (Zmczq)
Let me explain the difference
Posted by: Bill O'Reilly at July 18, 2018 07:35 PM (TdS5t)
297
I have to work midnight to 3AM to do a thing what needs doing. I don't know whether to try to nap or just plan on brewing strong coffee.
Posted by: Grump928(c) at July 18, 2018 07:35 PM (yQpMk)
298
Not the way they split it up. LA, SD and SF would've been the capitals of each state. Thats all we need. 6 more Democrat Senators.
Fuck that. Those three cities should be ONE state all by itself along with Sacramento.
Posted by: J.J. Sefton at July 18, 2018 07:34 PM (VM6ev)
Yah fuck that noise in particular.
Fuck that. Those three cities should be ONE state all by itself along with Sacramento.
Posted by: J.J. Sefton at July 18, 2018 07:34 PM (VM6ev)
Yah fuck that noise in particular.
Posted by: eleven at July 18, 2018 07:36 PM (+lOpA)
299
Legally binding NATO treaty ≠ vague promises of support.
Posted by: The Defense Hat at July 18, 2018 07:36 PM (itfg0)
300
Yep. D. Boone was a kid right up until he died.
But, he was a fearless guitar player. Guy played with a freedom and candor few ever achieve.
Posted by: garrett at July 18, 2018 07:29 PM (J0CvP)
Absolutely. Great documentary on them narrated by Mike Watt and George Hurley.
But, he was a fearless guitar player. Guy played with a freedom and candor few ever achieve.
Posted by: garrett at July 18, 2018 07:29 PM (J0CvP)
Absolutely. Great documentary on them narrated by Mike Watt and George Hurley.
Posted by: Curmudgeon at July 18, 2018 07:36 PM (ujg0T)
301
Oh and the cats like tit so there's that.
Somebody has been watching too many newborn kitten videos. Or is a breeder of kittehs.
Somebody has been watching too many newborn kitten videos. Or is a breeder of kittehs.
Posted by: Basement Cat at July 18, 2018 07:36 PM (3C9q2)
302
Historians may date the age of NWO Wankerism from Kindler and Gentler CIA Director Bush to CIA Director Brennan.
Posted by: Puddin Head at July 18, 2018 07:36 PM (vV/gB)
303
That may make me sound like a pacifist, which I am not, but it does put me in the hardcore realist camp. Because, you see, American troops can win a war in six months. It's just that the American public would lose their minds at what it would take to do so.
We are a nation of petulant children and we are being ruled by those who we have chosen to recognize as much.
Posted by: alexthechick - Superelite Ragebunny. Hopping all around. at July 18, 2018 06:53 PM (dEQP3)
^^^This is the codicil. In the moral vs realism spectrum the decision makers need to factor in whether we have the WILL to do what is necessary to WIN. Not just a virtue-signaling statement of moral support. While I do believe that a case can be made for attacking threats in other countries as a means to prevent the threats from becoming active in the US proper, we can't be responsible for policing every dispute.
Not without the power to control the country afterwards and I believe colonial empires are out of fashion these days.
We are a nation of petulant children and we are being ruled by those who we have chosen to recognize as much.
Posted by: alexthechick - Superelite Ragebunny. Hopping all around. at July 18, 2018 06:53 PM (dEQP3)
^^^This is the codicil. In the moral vs realism spectrum the decision makers need to factor in whether we have the WILL to do what is necessary to WIN. Not just a virtue-signaling statement of moral support. While I do believe that a case can be made for attacking threats in other countries as a means to prevent the threats from becoming active in the US proper, we can't be responsible for policing every dispute.
Not without the power to control the country afterwards and I believe colonial empires are out of fashion these days.
Posted by: Iris at July 18, 2018 07:36 PM (dYDe7)
304
>> I don't know whether to try to nap or just plan on brewing strong coffee.
I get 10-15 minutes after a cup of coffee where I can drop into a 30 minute nap. Wake up revving, too!
I get 10-15 minutes after a cup of coffee where I can drop into a 30 minute nap. Wake up revving, too!
Posted by: garrett at July 18, 2018 07:37 PM (J0CvP)
305
For OG parrot heads, there is only me.
Posted by: You Had To Be There at July 18, 2018 07:37 PM (QLvwG)
306
I have to work midnight to 3AM to do a thing what needs doing. I don't know whether to try to nap or just plan on brewing strong coffee.
Posted by: Grump928(c) at July 18, 2018 07:35 PM (yQpMk)
You sure you should be mentioning that sort of "job" here on the interwebs?
Posted by: Grump928(c) at July 18, 2018 07:35 PM (yQpMk)
You sure you should be mentioning that sort of "job" here on the interwebs?
Posted by: SSBN 656 (G) at July 18, 2018 07:37 PM (5AVMW)
307
The problem Ace failed to mention is that Ukraine is not a nation, has never been a nation and likely will never become one.
Um, no.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine#Golden_Age_of_Kiev
"During the 10th and 11th centuries, it became the largest and most powerful state in Europe.[38] It laid the foundation for the national identity of Ukrainians and Russians.[39] Kiev, the capital of modern Ukraine, became the most important city of the Rus'."
Ukrainian is a language about as distinct from Russian as Dutch is from German or English.
Um, no.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine#Golden_Age_of_Kiev
"During the 10th and 11th centuries, it became the largest and most powerful state in Europe.[38] It laid the foundation for the national identity of Ukrainians and Russians.[39] Kiev, the capital of modern Ukraine, became the most important city of the Rus'."
Ukrainian is a language about as distinct from Russian as Dutch is from German or English.
Posted by: Deplorable Jay Guevara, now with a spark of divinity at July 18, 2018 07:37 PM (ez9Rh)
308
Bingo. Americans are not ones for protracted war.
Posted by: Curmudgeon at July 18, 2018 07:35 PM (ujg0T)
That's our biggest charm ... screw those who think different.
All we used to want to do was work our fields, factories, whatever - and be left alone.
Posted by: Curmudgeon at July 18, 2018 07:35 PM (ujg0T)
That's our biggest charm ... screw those who think different.
All we used to want to do was work our fields, factories, whatever - and be left alone.
Posted by: ScoggDog at July 18, 2018 07:37 PM (fiGNd)
309
well now I know what a schmundie is. This place...amirite?
Posted by: Cannibal Bob at July 18, 2018 07:37 PM (Zmczq)
310
have to work midnight to 3AM to do a thing what needs doing. I don't know whether to try to nap or just plan on brewing strong coffee.
Posted by: Grump928(c) at July 18, 2018 07:35 PM (yQpMk)
-
Drink some brown liquor, nap briefly, wake up refreshed.
Posted by: Grump928(c) at July 18, 2018 07:35 PM (yQpMk)
-
Drink some brown liquor, nap briefly, wake up refreshed.
Posted by: Moron Robbie - I choose to live my life as a black woman at July 18, 2018 07:38 PM (YPqbH)
311
>>Absolutely. Great documentary on them narrated by Mike Watt and George Hurley.
Got it on DVD. Love it. Love all 3 of those guys.
Watt couldn't be a nicer person. And Hurley is a fucking God.
Got it on DVD. Love it. Love all 3 of those guys.
Watt couldn't be a nicer person. And Hurley is a fucking God.
Posted by: garrett at July 18, 2018 07:38 PM (J0CvP)
312
And if the Ukranians thought we'd come to their aid, merely because we said so, that's kind of on them, don't you think? Where was THEIR foreign ministry? Why didn't THEIR leadership figure it out?
I hate to say it, but folks who condemn me as a delusional sissy boy who destroyed the Western world by sitting my bony ass on the control panel while stoned out of my gourd, are just racists.
I hate to say it, but folks who condemn me as a delusional sissy boy who destroyed the Western world by sitting my bony ass on the control panel while stoned out of my gourd, are just racists.
Posted by: Hussein Soetoro, B.A., J.D. , C.-in-C., B.F.D. at July 18, 2018 07:38 PM (ritOW)
313
285 A divan is like a davenport with no back
Posted by: Balrog of Morgoth at July 18, 2018 07:33 PM (ARUHl)
"I am the king of the divan--
Ca plane pour moi...."
--Plastic Bertrand
Posted by: Balrog of Morgoth at July 18, 2018 07:33 PM (ARUHl)
"I am the king of the divan--
Ca plane pour moi...."
--Plastic Bertrand
Posted by: Curmudgeon at July 18, 2018 07:38 PM (ujg0T)
314
You sure you should be mentioning that sort of "job" here on the interwebs?
if five whiskeys don't get the taste out of my mouth a sixth won't either..
if five whiskeys don't get the taste out of my mouth a sixth won't either..
Posted by: Grump928(c) at July 18, 2018 07:38 PM (yQpMk)
315
285 A divan is like a davenport with no back
Posted by: Balrog of Morgoth at July 18, 2018 07:33 PM (ARUHl)
I've sold a lot of Davenport desks but never a sofa. Maybe I have and didn't know it
Posted by: Balrog of Morgoth at July 18, 2018 07:33 PM (ARUHl)
I've sold a lot of Davenport desks but never a sofa. Maybe I have and didn't know it
Posted by: REDACTED at July 18, 2018 07:38 PM (TdS5t)
316
301
Oh and the cats like tit so there's that.
Somebody has been watching too many newborn kitten videos. Or is a breeder of kittehs.
Posted by: Basement Cat at July 18, 2018 07:36 PM (3C9q2)
Lol. i didn't catch that.
Oh and the cats like tit so there's that.
Somebody has been watching too many newborn kitten videos. Or is a breeder of kittehs.
Posted by: Basement Cat at July 18, 2018 07:36 PM (3C9q2)
Lol. i didn't catch that.
Posted by: Cannibal Bob at July 18, 2018 07:39 PM (Zmczq)
Posted by: garrett at July 18, 2018 07:39 PM (J0CvP)
318
Cooks Illustrated email today prominently features:
"Go Greek With This Crowd Pleasing Olive Oil"
Editing, dead it is...
Cooks Illustrated email today prominently features:
"Go Greek With This Crowd Pleasing Olive Oil"
Editing, dead it is...
Posted by: In Vino Veritits at July 18, 2018 07:39 PM (UFLLM)
319
286 (All the linguists in the house double over with laughter.)
Glad to know grad school was good for a few things other than the degree.
Posted by: Basement Cat
If you can't laugh at a good oboe joke, you are excluded from intellectual circles!
Why do orchestras tune all instruments to the oboe's high "A"?
Because everyone must be out of tune exactly in the same way!
Hahahahahahaha!
I got millions of 'em. I've got an entire oboe standup act.
Glad to know grad school was good for a few things other than the degree.
Posted by: Basement Cat
If you can't laugh at a good oboe joke, you are excluded from intellectual circles!
Why do orchestras tune all instruments to the oboe's high "A"?
Because everyone must be out of tune exactly in the same way!
Hahahahahahaha!
I got millions of 'em. I've got an entire oboe standup act.
Posted by: zombie at July 18, 2018 07:39 PM (c+2jX)
320
Lol, louffer
Posted by: Cosmic Charlie at July 18, 2018 07:39 PM (PUmDY)
321
During the 10th and 11th centuries, it became the largest and most powerful state in Europe.[38] It laid the foundation for the national identity of Ukrainians and Russians.[39] Kiev, the capital of modern Ukraine, became the most important city of the Rus'."
Ukrainian is a language about as distinct from Russian as Dutch is from German or English.
Posted by: Deplorable Jay Guevara, now with a spark of divinity at July 18, 2018 07:37 PM (ez9Rh)
and Kievan Russ as distinct from today's country of Ukraine as the Holly Roman Empire is from Germany.
Ukrainian is a language about as distinct from Russian as Dutch is from German or English.
Posted by: Deplorable Jay Guevara, now with a spark of divinity at July 18, 2018 07:37 PM (ez9Rh)
and Kievan Russ as distinct from today's country of Ukraine as the Holly Roman Empire is from Germany.
Posted by: runner at July 18, 2018 07:39 PM (bUjCl)
322
The real problem for the moralists is that we're now free to openly ask the question that Tucker asked last night: Why should my son fight?
In WWII draft we had to fatten up our boys to fight, then to die. People, brought closer to truth through education and technological advance, are naturally going to ask the question that some decades ago wasn't allowed.
That we're now a volunteer military doesn't diminish the need for citizens to protect Tucker's son and the sons of people who seek a route out of disorder and poverty.
In WWII draft we had to fatten up our boys to fight, then to die. People, brought closer to truth through education and technological advance, are naturally going to ask the question that some decades ago wasn't allowed.
That we're now a volunteer military doesn't diminish the need for citizens to protect Tucker's son and the sons of people who seek a route out of disorder and poverty.
Posted by: MLD at July 18, 2018 07:40 PM (Bt7Nk)
323
You're a traveling man Charlie.
Posted by: JackStraw at July 18, 2018 07:40 PM (/tuJf)
324
318
Cooks Illustrated email today prominently features:
"Go Greek With This Crowd Pleasing Olive Oil"
Editing, dead it is...
Posted by: In Vino Veritits at July 18, 2018 07:39 PM (UFLLM)
"PHRASING!!!!"
- - Al Sharptone
Cooks Illustrated email today prominently features:
"Go Greek With This Crowd Pleasing Olive Oil"
Editing, dead it is...
Posted by: In Vino Veritits at July 18, 2018 07:39 PM (UFLLM)
"PHRASING!!!!"
- - Al Sharptone
Posted by: J.J. Sefton at July 18, 2018 07:40 PM (VM6ev)
325
Divan is also something great to do with leftover turkey
Posted by: REDACTED at July 18, 2018 07:40 PM (TdS5t)
Posted by: garrett at July 18, 2018 07:40 PM (J0CvP)
327
Marxist-Leninism is a very seductive ideology if you just go with feelings.
Capitalism is a cold-blooded calculated ideology that needs religion to moderate the lust for profit.
Democracy - back to feelings again because most people can't or won't take the time to think through the effects of proposed policies or can't be cold-blooded enough to separate feelings for the children from the side effects of government policy.
Sure, Marxists can be cold-blooded when dealing with their enemies, but their decisions are still based on emotion.
Representative Republicanism in the US was intended to be cold-blooded and based on reason, facts, and logic. Everything most humans are not, or at least, not often reasonable, fact-based, and logical.
Marxist-Leninism is a very seductive ideology if you just go with feelings.
Capitalism is a cold-blooded calculated ideology that needs religion to moderate the lust for profit.
Democracy - back to feelings again because most people can't or won't take the time to think through the effects of proposed policies or can't be cold-blooded enough to separate feelings for the children from the side effects of government policy.
Sure, Marxists can be cold-blooded when dealing with their enemies, but their decisions are still based on emotion.
Representative Republicanism in the US was intended to be cold-blooded and based on reason, facts, and logic. Everything most humans are not, or at least, not often reasonable, fact-based, and logical.
Posted by: Skandia Recluse at July 18, 2018 07:40 PM (roQNm)
Posted by: In Vino Veritits at July 18, 2018 07:41 PM (UFLLM)
329
There were multiple city states that were molded into Russia, plus some Tatar held ones - like Kazan.
Posted by: runner at July 18, 2018 07:41 PM (bUjCl)
330
Seeing a lot of nicks I don't recognize in this thread.
Posted by: Grey Fox at July 18, 2018 07:42 PM (bZ7mE)
Posted by: Grump928(c) at July 18, 2018 07:42 PM (yQpMk)
332
313 285 A divan is like a davenport with no back
Posted by: Balrog of Morgoth at July 18, 2018 07:33 PM (ARUHl)
"I am the king of the divan--
Ca plane pour moi...."
--Plastic Bertrand
Posted by: Curmudgeon at July 18, 2018 07:38 PM (ujg0T)
The fact that you know Plastic Bertrand. Wow.
Posted by: Balrog of Morgoth at July 18, 2018 07:33 PM (ARUHl)
"I am the king of the divan--
Ca plane pour moi...."
--Plastic Bertrand
Posted by: Curmudgeon at July 18, 2018 07:38 PM (ujg0T)
The fact that you know Plastic Bertrand. Wow.
Posted by: J.J. Sefton at July 18, 2018 07:42 PM (VM6ev)
333
329 There were multiple city states that were molded into Russia, plus some Tatar held ones - like Kazan.
Posted by: runner at July 18, 2018 07:41 PM (bUjCl)
IIRC, Tatars are very East Asian looking, but culturally Russian?
Posted by: runner at July 18, 2018 07:41 PM (bUjCl)
IIRC, Tatars are very East Asian looking, but culturally Russian?
Posted by: Curmudgeon at July 18, 2018 07:42 PM (ujg0T)
334
Wish you were here is the greatest prog rock single album in history.
The Damnation of Adam Blessing
We're Only In It For the Money
Wish you were here is the greatest prog rock single album in history.
The Damnation of Adam Blessing
We're Only In It For the Money
Posted by: Bertram Cabot, Jr. at July 18, 2018 07:42 PM (IqV8l)
335
Realism - good.
Posted by: runner at July 18, 2018 07:42 PM (bUjCl)
336
Hahahahahahaha!
I got millions of 'em. I've got an entire oboe standup act.
Posted by: zombie at July 18, 2018 07:39 PM (c+2jX)
Like this?
How do you get five oboes in tune?
Shoot four of them.
I got millions of 'em. I've got an entire oboe standup act.
Posted by: zombie at July 18, 2018 07:39 PM (c+2jX)
Like this?
How do you get five oboes in tune?
Shoot four of them.
Posted by: Cannibal Bob at July 18, 2018 07:43 PM (Zmczq)
Posted by: eleven at July 18, 2018 07:43 PM (+lOpA)
338
IIRC, Tatars are very East Asian looking, but culturally Russian?
Posted by: Curmudgeon at July 18, 2018 07:42 PM (ujg0T)
Mongolian, but over centuries mixed into the population.
Posted by: Curmudgeon at July 18, 2018 07:42 PM (ujg0T)
Mongolian, but over centuries mixed into the population.
Posted by: runner at July 18, 2018 07:43 PM (bUjCl)
339
333 329 There were multiple city states that were molded into Russia, plus some Tatar held ones - like Kazan.
Posted by: runner at July 18, 2018 07:41 PM (bUjCl)
IIRC, Tatars are very East Asian looking, but culturally Russian?
Posted by: Curmudgeon at July 18, 2018 07:42 PM (ujg0T)
"Um, like, they invented Tatar sauce, right?"
- - Ben Rhodes
Posted by: runner at July 18, 2018 07:41 PM (bUjCl)
IIRC, Tatars are very East Asian looking, but culturally Russian?
Posted by: Curmudgeon at July 18, 2018 07:42 PM (ujg0T)
"Um, like, they invented Tatar sauce, right?"
- - Ben Rhodes
Posted by: J.J. Sefton at July 18, 2018 07:43 PM (VM6ev)
Posted by: Grump928(c) the idiot bastard's son at July 18, 2018 07:43 PM (yQpMk)
Posted by: In Vino Veritits, Director Happy Fun Camp Time Share Sales at July 18, 2018 07:44 PM (UFLLM)
342
and Kievan Russ as distinct from today's country of Ukraine as the Holly Roman Empire is from Germany.
And yet, Germany is considered a nation these days....
And yet, Germany is considered a nation these days....
Posted by: Grey Fox at July 18, 2018 07:44 PM (bZ7mE)
343
Have the windows open , ice cream truck going by playing Yankee Doodle Dandy
Posted by: Skip at July 18, 2018 07:44 PM (pHfeF)
344
Ukraine Mother Russia's bitch.
Posted by: Russia at July 18, 2018 07:44 PM (mj0FB)
345
This is why I read AoS. You won't find this kind of commentary anywhere else.
Posted by: Dilsin at July 18, 2018 07:44 PM (3OMsg)
346
The Ukraine is weak.
Posted by: Cosmo Kramer at July 18, 2018 07:44 PM (yQpMk)
347
344 Ukraine Mother Russia's bitch.
Posted by: Russia at July 18, 2018 07:44 PM (mj0FB)
"Pfft. Pfft-Pfft."
- - Belarus and Moldova
Posted by: Russia at July 18, 2018 07:44 PM (mj0FB)
"Pfft. Pfft-Pfft."
- - Belarus and Moldova
Posted by: J.J. Sefton at July 18, 2018 07:45 PM (VM6ev)
348
Divan was great in those John Waters films.
Posted by: Moron Robbie - I choose to live my life as a black woman at July 18, 2018 07:45 PM (YPqbH)
349
There were also Crimean Khanate, and other Mongolian regions that became part of Russia many moons ago.
Posted by: runner at July 18, 2018 07:45 PM (bUjCl)
350
Garrett, you make fun, but Dead and Company is the best touring act out now, imo. Branford Marsalis is going to be with them in a month or so.
Posted by: Cosmic Charlie at July 18, 2018 07:45 PM (PUmDY)
Posted by: In Vino Veritits, Director Happy Fun Camp Time Share Sales at July 18, 2018 07:45 PM (UFLLM)
352
Moldova's alright. Could use a nose job though.
Posted by: Cosmo Kramer at July 18, 2018 07:45 PM (yQpMk)
Posted by: JackStraw at July 18, 2018 07:45 PM (/tuJf)
354
And yet, Germany is considered a nation these days....
Posted by: Grey Fox at July 18, 2018 07:44 PM (bZ7mE)
They should thank Napoleon..
Posted by: Grey Fox at July 18, 2018 07:44 PM (bZ7mE)
They should thank Napoleon..
Posted by: runner at July 18, 2018 07:46 PM (bUjCl)
355
I'm sorry but I'm having a chuckle.
Queers and cucks can generate 600 comments in this same amount of time.
Queers and cucks can generate 600 comments in this same amount of time.
Posted by: Ben Had at July 18, 2018 07:46 PM (8T7EF)
356
After ace's output today, I'm ready to go from platinum to double platinum membership.
Posted by: TexasDan at July 18, 2018 07:46 PM (yL25O)
357
Still going
Posted by: Skip at July 18, 2018 07:46 PM (pHfeF)
358
Duck! It's the oboe.
Posted by: Bertram Cabot, Jr. at July 18, 2018 07:47 PM (IqV8l)
359
332 313 285 A divan is like a davenport with no back
Posted by: Balrog of Morgoth at July 18, 2018 07:33 PM (ARUHl)
"I am the king of the divan--
Ca plane pour moi...."
--Plastic Bertrand
Posted by: Curmudgeon at July 18, 2018 07:38 PM (ujg0T)
The fact that you know Plastic Bertrand. Wow.
Posted by: J.J. Sefton
My comment back at #161 "I prefer to stay over here on my comfortable settee." Posted by: obscure punk lyrics reference) was referring to the lyrics of Chelsea's 1981 song "Evacuate": "They all sit down, On a comfortable settee." That's what started this whole mashup of obscure furniture and punk rock.
Posted by: Balrog of Morgoth at July 18, 2018 07:33 PM (ARUHl)
"I am the king of the divan--
Ca plane pour moi...."
--Plastic Bertrand
Posted by: Curmudgeon at July 18, 2018 07:38 PM (ujg0T)
The fact that you know Plastic Bertrand. Wow.
Posted by: J.J. Sefton
My comment back at #161 "I prefer to stay over here on my comfortable settee." Posted by: obscure punk lyrics reference) was referring to the lyrics of Chelsea's 1981 song "Evacuate": "They all sit down, On a comfortable settee." That's what started this whole mashup of obscure furniture and punk rock.
Posted by: zombie at July 18, 2018 07:47 PM (c+2jX)
360
355
I'm sorry but I'm having a chuckle.
Queers and cucks can generate 600 comments in this same amount of time.
Posted by: Ben Had at July 18, 2018 07:46 PM (8T7EF)
Is that a band?
I'm sorry but I'm having a chuckle.
Queers and cucks can generate 600 comments in this same amount of time.
Posted by: Ben Had at July 18, 2018 07:46 PM (8T7EF)
Is that a band?
Posted by: Cannibal Bob at July 18, 2018 07:47 PM (Zmczq)
361
and Kievan Russ as distinct from today's country of Ukraine as the Holy Roman Empire is from Germany.
Posted by: runner at July 18, 2018 07:39 PM (bUjCl)
Yes, but I'd liken the Ukrainians' desire to have a Ukraine to the Kurds' wanting a Kurdistan: a people who consider themselves distinct from those around (and in some cases, among) them, with their own language and culture.
Posted by: runner at July 18, 2018 07:39 PM (bUjCl)
Yes, but I'd liken the Ukrainians' desire to have a Ukraine to the Kurds' wanting a Kurdistan: a people who consider themselves distinct from those around (and in some cases, among) them, with their own language and culture.
Posted by: Deplorable Jay Guevara, now with a spark of divinity at July 18, 2018 07:47 PM (ez9Rh)
362
>>Garrett, you make fun, but Dead and Company is the best touring act out now, imo.
Saw Dean Ween Group last week. Deaner killed it.
Gonna go see J. Mascis on my birthday.
Not gonna go see John. Not even if he begs.
Saw Dean Ween Group last week. Deaner killed it.
Gonna go see J. Mascis on my birthday.
Not gonna go see John. Not even if he begs.
Posted by: garrett at July 18, 2018 07:47 PM (J0CvP)
363
After ace's output today, I'm ready to go from platinum to double platinum membership.
Yes yes, first the oohing and ahhing, then the running and the screaming. We'll all be banned by midnight.
Yes yes, first the oohing and ahhing, then the running and the screaming. We'll all be banned by midnight.
Posted by: Grump928(c) at July 18, 2018 07:48 PM (yQpMk)
364
I woke up today and I am still not speaking Russian. What is up with that?! The media promised me the Russians were taking over and Trump would have everybody in America speaking Russians by today.
Oh, well there is always tomorrow.
#RussiaRussiaRussia
Oh, well there is always tomorrow.
#RussiaRussiaRussia
Posted by: Trigger Warning at July 18, 2018 07:48 PM (YRXy3)
365
chicks and queers make good looking lovers
Posted by: Marilyn Manson at July 18, 2018 07:48 PM (NlLAv)
366
336 Hahahahahahaha!
I got millions of 'em. I've got an entire oboe standup act.
Posted by: zombie at July 18, 2018 07:39 PM (c+2jX)
Like this?
How do you get five oboes in tune?
Shoot four of them.
Posted by: Cannibal Bob
Hahahaha! A classic. I always use that one in my encore.
I got millions of 'em. I've got an entire oboe standup act.
Posted by: zombie at July 18, 2018 07:39 PM (c+2jX)
Like this?
How do you get five oboes in tune?
Shoot four of them.
Posted by: Cannibal Bob
Hahahaha! A classic. I always use that one in my encore.
Posted by: zombie at July 18, 2018 07:48 PM (c+2jX)
367
What is PDT's strategy re: Russia is my question. He is a wily one for sure.
Posted by: jmel at July 18, 2018 07:49 PM (OeWgo)
368
But given that Bush's own evidence was kind of shaky, did it make sense to commit to a full ground war and full occupation for years and year (though the length of the occupation was longer than I imagine they predicted)?
With the evidence kind of shaky, I could see a case for a more punitive no-fly zone policy and more frequent bombings coupled with attempts to destablilize Iraq and spur an uprising.
We could have just bombed all suspected WMD sites and presidential palaces and all the other places we suspected there might have been WMDs. And then rebombed them. And then bombed them six months later, in case we thought they had started those sites back producing WMDs.
That would have been far less costly a war.
Posted by: ace at July 18, 2018 06:50 PM (PA9oZ)
If Trump was president, he probably would have made a deal with Saddam to get rid of his WMD's--if they really existed---and let him stay in power. And Saddam would have known Trump wasn't fooling around.
I voted for George W. Bush, but he was an idiot. He could have done 10X what Trump wants to do regarding immigration from Muslim countries--and 95% of the country would have either agreed--or shut up about it.
With the evidence kind of shaky, I could see a case for a more punitive no-fly zone policy and more frequent bombings coupled with attempts to destablilize Iraq and spur an uprising.
We could have just bombed all suspected WMD sites and presidential palaces and all the other places we suspected there might have been WMDs. And then rebombed them. And then bombed them six months later, in case we thought they had started those sites back producing WMDs.
That would have been far less costly a war.
Posted by: ace at July 18, 2018 06:50 PM (PA9oZ)
If Trump was president, he probably would have made a deal with Saddam to get rid of his WMD's--if they really existed---and let him stay in power. And Saddam would have known Trump wasn't fooling around.
I voted for George W. Bush, but he was an idiot. He could have done 10X what Trump wants to do regarding immigration from Muslim countries--and 95% of the country would have either agreed--or shut up about it.
Posted by: JoeF. at July 18, 2018 07:49 PM (y8Foj)
369
All double reed instruments are the Devil's invention.
Posted by: Grump928(c) at July 18, 2018 07:49 PM (yQpMk)
370
Yes, but I'd liken the Ukrainians' desire to have a Ukraine to the Kurds' wanting a Kurdistan: a people who consider themselves distinct from those around (and in some cases, among) them, with their own language and culture.
Posted by: Deplorable Jay Guevara, now with a spark of divinity at July 18, 2018 07:47 PM (ez9Rh)
more like certain trans-Jordanians wanting "Palestine". seriously.
Posted by: Deplorable Jay Guevara, now with a spark of divinity at July 18, 2018 07:47 PM (ez9Rh)
more like certain trans-Jordanians wanting "Palestine". seriously.
Posted by: runner at July 18, 2018 07:49 PM (bUjCl)
371
I've got an entire oboe standup act.
I know a little about oboes because I have a friend who plays oboe at the symphony orchestra level. She not only told me about the process of making her own reeds but showed me how it's done. Made me glad that I didn't have to do that kind of thing to play a church organ.
And before you haul out your own collection of jokes about the ultimate wind instrument, I'll tack on one found in a bathroom in the local music school:
Q: Why did Bach have 21 children?
A: No stop on his organ.
I know a little about oboes because I have a friend who plays oboe at the symphony orchestra level. She not only told me about the process of making her own reeds but showed me how it's done. Made me glad that I didn't have to do that kind of thing to play a church organ.
And before you haul out your own collection of jokes about the ultimate wind instrument, I'll tack on one found in a bathroom in the local music school:
Q: Why did Bach have 21 children?
A: No stop on his organ.
Posted by: Basement Cat at July 18, 2018 07:49 PM (3C9q2)
372
332 313 285 A divan is like a davenport with no back
Posted by: Balrog of Morgoth at July 18, 2018 07:33 PM (ARUHl)
"I am the king of the divan--
Ca plane pour moi...."
--Plastic Bertrand
Posted by: Curmudgeon at July 18, 2018 07:38 PM (ujg0T)
The fact that you know Plastic Bertrand. Wow.
Posted by: J.J. Sefton at July 18, 2018 07:42 PM (VM6ev)
"Oooh-weee-oooh-ooooh!"
The 1980s (or late 1970s) left an impression on me.
Posted by: Balrog of Morgoth at July 18, 2018 07:33 PM (ARUHl)
"I am the king of the divan--
Ca plane pour moi...."
--Plastic Bertrand
Posted by: Curmudgeon at July 18, 2018 07:38 PM (ujg0T)
The fact that you know Plastic Bertrand. Wow.
Posted by: J.J. Sefton at July 18, 2018 07:42 PM (VM6ev)
"Oooh-weee-oooh-ooooh!"
The 1980s (or late 1970s) left an impression on me.
Posted by: Curmudgeon at July 18, 2018 07:49 PM (ujg0T)
Posted by: Boulder t'hobo at July 18, 2018 07:49 PM (NlLAv)
Posted by: S#it Zappa Said at July 18, 2018 07:50 PM (UdKB7)
375
and Kievan Russ as distinct from today's country of Ukraine as the Holly Roman Empire is from Germany.
Posted by: runner at July 18, 2018 07:39 PM (bUjCl)
Also, on a topical note, as distinct as Judea is from Israel, come to that.
I think the critical piece is that of people identifying themselves as a people who want to live together and govern themselves.
That's the common thread through the Ukrainians, the Kurds, and the Israelis.
Posted by: runner at July 18, 2018 07:39 PM (bUjCl)
Also, on a topical note, as distinct as Judea is from Israel, come to that.
I think the critical piece is that of people identifying themselves as a people who want to live together and govern themselves.
That's the common thread through the Ukrainians, the Kurds, and the Israelis.
Posted by: Deplorable Jay Guevara, now with a spark of divinity at July 18, 2018 07:50 PM (ez9Rh)
376
Hahahaha! A classic. I always use that one in my encore.
Posted by: zombie at July 18, 2018 07:48 PM (c+2jX)
LMAO!!! you're cracking me up zombie...because I believe you!
Posted by: zombie at July 18, 2018 07:48 PM (c+2jX)
LMAO!!! you're cracking me up zombie...because I believe you!
Posted by: Cannibal Bob at July 18, 2018 07:50 PM (Zmczq)
377
72 Is there victory in Afghanistan yet?
Posted by: Bertram Cabot, Jr. at July 18, 2018 06:56 PM (IqV8l)
No, but the president is bringing everyone to the table and even wants the Taliban to participate.
The Taliban insists on talking with the U.S. because they believe (and it's true) that the regime in Kabul is a puppet.
We're preparing to talk to them, too. Just three days ago Trump ordered direct talks to take place as soon as possible in order to come to an end to the war.
I wonder why this isn't headline news over on CNN?
Posted by: Bertram Cabot, Jr. at July 18, 2018 06:56 PM (IqV8l)
No, but the president is bringing everyone to the table and even wants the Taliban to participate.
The Taliban insists on talking with the U.S. because they believe (and it's true) that the regime in Kabul is a puppet.
We're preparing to talk to them, too. Just three days ago Trump ordered direct talks to take place as soon as possible in order to come to an end to the war.
I wonder why this isn't headline news over on CNN?
Posted by: Dack Thrombosis at July 18, 2018 07:51 PM (4ErVI)
378
321 and Kievan Russ as distinct from today's country of Ukraine as the Holly Roman Empire is from Germany.
I saw Holly Roman open for Stormy Daniels at the Empire State Plaza back in the noughties.
I saw Holly Roman open for Stormy Daniels at the Empire State Plaza back in the noughties.
Posted by: Anachronda at July 18, 2018 07:51 PM (NmR1a)
Posted by: JAS at July 18, 2018 07:51 PM (3HNOQ)
380
What is PDT's strategy re: Russia is my question. He is a wily one for sure.
Posted by: jmel at July 18, 2018 07:49 PM (OeWgo)
He wants to keep them in check regarding Eastern Europe, use them as a potential counter balance to future Chinese aggression, cooperate with them in the War on Terror and make money for US business.
Posted by: jmel at July 18, 2018 07:49 PM (OeWgo)
He wants to keep them in check regarding Eastern Europe, use them as a potential counter balance to future Chinese aggression, cooperate with them in the War on Terror and make money for US business.
Posted by: JoeF. at July 18, 2018 07:52 PM (y8Foj)
381
373 it is going to be Lena' s used under garments at the ONT tonight.
spoiler alert.
Posted by: Boulder t'hobo at July 18, 2018 07:49 PM (NlLAv)
...
I'm immune to everything except starfish blob on a rock lady.
I think.
spoiler alert.
Posted by: Boulder t'hobo at July 18, 2018 07:49 PM (NlLAv)
...
I'm immune to everything except starfish blob on a rock lady.
I think.
Posted by: TexasDan at July 18, 2018 07:52 PM (yL25O)
Posted by: Basement Cat at July 18, 2018 07:52 PM (3C9q2)
383
What is PDT's strategy re: Russia is my question. He is a wily one for sure.
Posted by: jmel at July 18, 2018 07:49 PM (OeWgo)
I think it is to get back to pre-obama meddling garbage. People were going nutso listening to POTUS, missed what Putin was saying. He said a lot of interesting stuff, regardign Syria. Breitbart picked on it up today.
Posted by: jmel at July 18, 2018 07:49 PM (OeWgo)
I think it is to get back to pre-obama meddling garbage. People were going nutso listening to POTUS, missed what Putin was saying. He said a lot of interesting stuff, regardign Syria. Breitbart picked on it up today.
Posted by: runner at July 18, 2018 07:52 PM (bUjCl)
384
He could have done 10X what Trump wants to do regarding immigration from Muslim countries--and 95% of the country would have either agreed--or shut up about it.
Posted by: JoeF. at July 18, 2018 07:49 PM (y8Foj)
---------------
Bush could've, except for the fact that his entire clan are open borders globalists. He didn't do anything because he didn't want to.
Posted by: JoeF. at July 18, 2018 07:49 PM (y8Foj)
---------------
Bush could've, except for the fact that his entire clan are open borders globalists. He didn't do anything because he didn't want to.
Posted by: Calm Mentor at July 18, 2018 07:52 PM (yJ9Jf)
385
Sorry, I stated that wrong. Topics about queers and cucks have been know to generate 600 comments in the same amount of time.
Ace has been brilliant on these last two threads.
Ace has been brilliant on these last two threads.
Posted by: Ben Had at July 18, 2018 07:52 PM (8T7EF)
386
371 I've got an entire oboe standup act.
I know a little about oboes because I have a friend who plays oboe at the symphony orchestra level. She not only told me about the process of making her own reeds but showed me how it's done. Made me glad that I didn't have to do that kind of thing to play a church organ.
And before you haul out your own collection of jokes about the ultimate wind instrument, I'll tack on one found in a bathroom in the local music school:
Q: Why did Bach have 21 children?
A: No stop on his organ.
Posted by: Basement Cat
What do you call a fat oboe with a nice coiffure?
Vidal Bassoon!
Hahahahahahahahaha!
I know a little about oboes because I have a friend who plays oboe at the symphony orchestra level. She not only told me about the process of making her own reeds but showed me how it's done. Made me glad that I didn't have to do that kind of thing to play a church organ.
And before you haul out your own collection of jokes about the ultimate wind instrument, I'll tack on one found in a bathroom in the local music school:
Q: Why did Bach have 21 children?
A: No stop on his organ.
Posted by: Basement Cat
What do you call a fat oboe with a nice coiffure?
Vidal Bassoon!
Hahahahahahahahaha!
Posted by: zombie at July 18, 2018 07:52 PM (c+2jX)
387
But given that Bush's own evidence was kind of shaky, did it make sense to commit to a full ground war and full occupation for years and year (though the length of the occupation was longer than I imagine they predicted)?
Posted by: ace at July 18, 2018 06:50 PM (PA9oZ)
Replacing Hussein with another Dictator, of our choosing, would have saved thousands of lives.
I was trained on how to bomb people into the Stone Age. I have no fucking idea how you're supposed to bomb them out of one.
Posted by: ace at July 18, 2018 06:50 PM (PA9oZ)
Replacing Hussein with another Dictator, of our choosing, would have saved thousands of lives.
I was trained on how to bomb people into the Stone Age. I have no fucking idea how you're supposed to bomb them out of one.
Posted by: ScoggDog at July 18, 2018 07:52 PM (fiGNd)
388
294 rickl, there are arguments that we did declare victory and go home re Japan. the surrender agreement with Germany was over a blasted ruin with no legitimate government - it all.had to be rebuilt. Japan kept her Emperor and other systems of government. Japan didnt even apologise. the emperor just had to agree that he was done being Japan's god and done with invading non Japanese land.
Posted by: Boulder t'hobo at July 18, 2018 07:35 PM (NlLAv)
Yeah, but that was good enough. The Japanese knew they were beaten and didn't mount a guerilla campaign against the American occupation.
On the other hand, the "not apologizing" led to them getting away with committing atrocities on the same scale that the Nazis were punished for. And the Japanese don't teach their children about those things either.
Today, the Germans seem to be trying to commit national suicide over their war guilt. The Japanese don't seem to feel war guilt, yet they've stopped reproducing. So I don't know.
Posted by: Boulder t'hobo at July 18, 2018 07:35 PM (NlLAv)
Yeah, but that was good enough. The Japanese knew they were beaten and didn't mount a guerilla campaign against the American occupation.
On the other hand, the "not apologizing" led to them getting away with committing atrocities on the same scale that the Nazis were punished for. And the Japanese don't teach their children about those things either.
Today, the Germans seem to be trying to commit national suicide over their war guilt. The Japanese don't seem to feel war guilt, yet they've stopped reproducing. So I don't know.
Posted by: rickl at July 18, 2018 07:52 PM (sdi6R)
389
"Strongman politics are ascendant," what a jerk off quota
Posted by: Cosmic Charlie at July 18, 2018 07:53 PM (PUmDY)
390
I saw Holly Roman open for Stormy Daniels at the Empire State Plaza back in the noughties.
Posted by: Anachronda at July 18, 2018 07:51 PM (NmR1a)
did she grab them ?
Posted by: Anachronda at July 18, 2018 07:51 PM (NmR1a)
did she grab them ?
Posted by: runner at July 18, 2018 07:53 PM (bUjCl)
391
I saw Holly Roman open for Stormy Daniels at the Empire State Plaza back in the noughties.
Posted by: Anachronda at July 18, 2018 07:51 PM (NmR1a)
But her name wasn't really Holly and she wasn't a Roman and Empire State Plaza wasn't really an Empire....
I saw Holly Roman open for Stormy Daniels at the Empire State Plaza back in the noughties.
Posted by: Anachronda at July 18, 2018 07:51 PM (NmR1a)
But her name wasn't really Holly and she wasn't a Roman and Empire State Plaza wasn't really an Empire....
Posted by: JoeF. at July 18, 2018 07:53 PM (y8Foj)
392
And hautbois sounds alot like... HOBO!!!
Posted by: andycanuck at July 18, 2018 07:53 PM (Evws/)
393
The Russians at the time were Russian Orthodox. The western half of Ukraine were in Full Communion with Rome.
Posted by: JAS at July 18, 2018 07:54 PM (3HNOQ)
Posted by: Cannibal Bob at July 18, 2018 07:54 PM (Zmczq)
395
I voted for George W. Bush, but he was an idiot. He could have done 10X what Trump wants to do regarding immigration from Muslim countries--and 95% of the country would have either agreed--or shut up about it.
Posted by: JoeF. at July 18, 2018 07:49 PM (y8Foj)
He suffered from and still suffers from the NeoCon Globalist Delusion--that by gum, the whole world just wants to be like Americans, and culturally can be. They can't. And we will ruin ourselves trying to do it.
In some ways, the NeoCons were a backlash against the hate-America leftists who said the USA couldn't do anything right. But they went overboard and said the USA couldn't do anything wrong.
There ARE limits to American power, like it or not.
Our idealism must be tempered by realism.
Posted by: JoeF. at July 18, 2018 07:49 PM (y8Foj)
He suffered from and still suffers from the NeoCon Globalist Delusion--that by gum, the whole world just wants to be like Americans, and culturally can be. They can't. And we will ruin ourselves trying to do it.
In some ways, the NeoCons were a backlash against the hate-America leftists who said the USA couldn't do anything right. But they went overboard and said the USA couldn't do anything wrong.
There ARE limits to American power, like it or not.
Our idealism must be tempered by realism.
Posted by: Curmudgeon at July 18, 2018 07:54 PM (ujg0T)
396
"Strongman politics are ascendant," what a jerk off quota
Posted by: Cosmic Charlie at July 18, 2018 07:53 PM (PUmDY)
Well, Obama represented "Weak-man politics."
Posted by: Cosmic Charlie at July 18, 2018 07:53 PM (PUmDY)
Well, Obama represented "Weak-man politics."
Posted by: JoeF. at July 18, 2018 07:54 PM (y8Foj)
397
Quotation
Posted by: Cosmic Charlie at July 18, 2018 07:55 PM (PUmDY)
398
I'm not sure the media or left would ever allow us to really fight like that, even for our survival, today.
Posted by: ace at July 18, 2018 07:24 PM (PA9oZ)
Nations that allow their fifth columns to live, much less progandize for the enemy or infiltrate their military, really shouldn't expect to win wars.
Different nations have needed different mixes of diplomacy and strength, so debating how America should use that strength will tale waaaaaaay too long. I can say that any nation that thought to take Sebastopol without a Russian nuclear response is way too damn dumb to be taken seriously. What truly gets me is that Euromaidan would never have succeeded without Obama and EU backing. You can just feel their smugness at getting a "flawless" victory against Russia, yet they were obviously shocked at Putin's response. Now they're pushing nuclear war, all to sabe their failed reputations.
Whether you think military force is needed for America's problems abroad, or not, they have more pressing concerns at home first.
Posted by: ace at July 18, 2018 07:24 PM (PA9oZ)
Nations that allow their fifth columns to live, much less progandize for the enemy or infiltrate their military, really shouldn't expect to win wars.
Different nations have needed different mixes of diplomacy and strength, so debating how America should use that strength will tale waaaaaaay too long. I can say that any nation that thought to take Sebastopol without a Russian nuclear response is way too damn dumb to be taken seriously. What truly gets me is that Euromaidan would never have succeeded without Obama and EU backing. You can just feel their smugness at getting a "flawless" victory against Russia, yet they were obviously shocked at Putin's response. Now they're pushing nuclear war, all to sabe their failed reputations.
Whether you think military force is needed for America's problems abroad, or not, they have more pressing concerns at home first.
Posted by: trev006 at July 18, 2018 07:55 PM (S6rSu)
399
I have to say, I supported the Iraq War, because our troops supported it, and because I didn't buy the hysteria that it was all about WMDs - 'Bush lied,' etc. - but it gives me pause that its chief supporters were people like that loathsome toad Bill Kristol.
Posted by: norrin radd, sojourner of the spaceways at July 18, 2018 07:55 PM (hEx5q)
400
Just got here.
I am one hundred percent Ukrainian. My grandparents survived the forced famine as children only to be forced to fight for Russia or Germany during WWII. (All four chose Germany which is where both couples ended up meeting, in work camps). My parents were both born in the work camps and brought to America as children, and legally became citizens (they came over sponsored by churches).
My dad has always said that Ukrainians don’t fight, they are inherently pacifists. Also he’s said that their women are the most beautiful in the world and as a female OF COURSE I AGREE...
There’s a lot more to the story but meh. My grandpa’s parents were capitalists and were repeatedly jailed after the revolution.
I am one hundred percent Ukrainian. My grandparents survived the forced famine as children only to be forced to fight for Russia or Germany during WWII. (All four chose Germany which is where both couples ended up meeting, in work camps). My parents were both born in the work camps and brought to America as children, and legally became citizens (they came over sponsored by churches).
My dad has always said that Ukrainians don’t fight, they are inherently pacifists. Also he’s said that their women are the most beautiful in the world and as a female OF COURSE I AGREE...
There’s a lot more to the story but meh. My grandpa’s parents were capitalists and were repeatedly jailed after the revolution.
Posted by: Roxanne, Roxanne at July 18, 2018 07:56 PM (xU7mE)
401
Russia suppressed Ukrainians' own language as well as its (Catholic) church.
FIFY Ace.
Posted by: JAS at July 18, 2018 07:51 PM (3HNOQ)
Soviet Union suppressed all languages in its republics for the most part. As all the church activity. Catholics were tolerated but not welcome in mother Russian for a long LONG time. Centuries. No love for Rome. Competitors.
FIFY Ace.
Posted by: JAS at July 18, 2018 07:51 PM (3HNOQ)
Soviet Union suppressed all languages in its republics for the most part. As all the church activity. Catholics were tolerated but not welcome in mother Russian for a long LONG time. Centuries. No love for Rome. Competitors.
Posted by: runner at July 18, 2018 07:56 PM (bUjCl)
402
We MUST support Browder, Khodorkovsky, Vekselberg, Fridman, Prokhorov and the memory of Berezovsky!
And we MUST oppose Putin, Deripaska, Abramovich, and the Rotenbergs!
This is what it means to truly be an American, my fellow tovarisch!
If you do not know that we MUST support Browder, Khodorkovsky, Vekselberg, Fridman, Prokhorov and the memory of Berezovsky and that we MUST oppose Putin, Deripaska, Abramovich, and the Rotenbergs then you are un-American and anti-Semite!
And we MUST oppose Putin, Deripaska, Abramovich, and the Rotenbergs!
This is what it means to truly be an American, my fellow tovarisch!
If you do not know that we MUST support Browder, Khodorkovsky, Vekselberg, Fridman, Prokhorov and the memory of Berezovsky and that we MUST oppose Putin, Deripaska, Abramovich, and the Rotenbergs then you are un-American and anti-Semite!
Posted by: Max Boot at July 18, 2018 07:56 PM (DuAZ5)
403
"Strongman politics are ascendant," what a jerk off quota
Posted by: Cosmic Charlie
https://tinyurl.com/ydcxkvfo
"Strongman politics are ascendant," what a jerk off quota
Posted by: Cosmic Charlie
https://tinyurl.com/ydcxkvfo
Posted by: Bertram Cabot, Jr. at July 18, 2018 07:56 PM (IqV8l)
404
What do you call a fat oboe with a nice coiffure?
Vidal Bassoon!
Hahahahahahahahaha!
Posted by: zombie at July 18, 2018 07:52 PM (c+2jX)
...
My only orchestra joke is the one where the Bass viols slip out to a bar in the third movement of Beethoven's ninth symphony, and when they come back for the fourth the conductor says "Great. It's the bottom of the ninth and the bases are loaded."
Vidal Bassoon!
Hahahahahahahahaha!
Posted by: zombie at July 18, 2018 07:52 PM (c+2jX)
...
My only orchestra joke is the one where the Bass viols slip out to a bar in the third movement of Beethoven's ninth symphony, and when they come back for the fourth the conductor says "Great. It's the bottom of the ninth and the bases are loaded."
Posted by: TexasDan at July 18, 2018 07:56 PM (yL25O)
405
He suffered from and still suffers from the NeoCon Globalist Delusion--that by gum, the whole world just wants to be like Americans, and culturally can be. They can't. And we will ruin ourselves trying to do it.
In some ways, the NeoCons were a backlash against the hate-America leftists who said the USA couldn't do anything right. But they went overboard and said the USA couldn't do anything wrong.
There ARE limits to American power, like it or not.
Our idealism must be tempered by realism.
Posted by: Curmudgeon at July 18, 2018 07:54 PM (ujg0
Yes. And, to be honest, I bought into that bullshit myself at the time. No more. Not one drop of American blood for Muslim "freedom." And yeah, not everyone wants to be American; they just want American money.
In some ways, the NeoCons were a backlash against the hate-America leftists who said the USA couldn't do anything right. But they went overboard and said the USA couldn't do anything wrong.
There ARE limits to American power, like it or not.
Our idealism must be tempered by realism.
Posted by: Curmudgeon at July 18, 2018 07:54 PM (ujg0
Yes. And, to be honest, I bought into that bullshit myself at the time. No more. Not one drop of American blood for Muslim "freedom." And yeah, not everyone wants to be American; they just want American money.
Posted by: JoeF. at July 18, 2018 07:57 PM (y8Foj)
406
372 The 1980s (or late 1970s) left an impression on me.
Posted by: Curmudgeon at July 18, 2018 07:49 PM (ujg0T)
Music director, morning host of my college radio station from '78-'81.
Posted by: Curmudgeon at July 18, 2018 07:49 PM (ujg0T)
Music director, morning host of my college radio station from '78-'81.
Posted by: J.J. Sefton at July 18, 2018 07:57 PM (VM6ev)
407
The Russians at the time were Russian Orthodox. The western half of Ukraine were in Full Communion with Rome.
Posted by: JAS at July 18, 2018 07:54 PM (3HNOQ)
That's an odd one. Polish influence most likely. But priests can marry and do. What's up with that ?
Posted by: JAS at July 18, 2018 07:54 PM (3HNOQ)
That's an odd one. Polish influence most likely. But priests can marry and do. What's up with that ?
Posted by: runner at July 18, 2018 07:57 PM (bUjCl)
408
What do you throw a drowning bassoon player?
His case.
What does it take to get rid of a bagpiper?
A drone.
His case.
What does it take to get rid of a bagpiper?
A drone.
Posted by: Basement Cat at July 18, 2018 07:58 PM (3C9q2)
409
Priests can marry and do what?
Priests can marry and do what?
Posted by: J.J. Sefton at July 18, 2018 07:58 PM (VM6ev)
410
I recall that the word for Starvation in Russian means dancing nude in the woods in Ukrainian. Not a multi linguist, but I think this is actually true. At lest the Uke translator said it was so.
Posted by: Puddin Head at July 18, 2018 07:59 PM (vV/gB)
411
So picked up the anchor for my boat today, and its yuuuge. I'm gonna need a bigger boat.
Posted by: Cannibal Bob at July 18, 2018 07:59 PM (Zmczq)
412
407 The Russians at the time were Russian Orthodox. The western half of Ukraine were in Full Communion with Rome.
Posted by: JAS at July 18, 2018 07:54 PM (3HNOQ)
That's an odd one. Polish influence most likely. But priests can marry and do. What's up with that ?
Posted by: runner at July 18, 2018 07:57 PM (bUjCl)
Eastern Rite?
Posted by: JAS at July 18, 2018 07:54 PM (3HNOQ)
That's an odd one. Polish influence most likely. But priests can marry and do. What's up with that ?
Posted by: runner at July 18, 2018 07:57 PM (bUjCl)
Eastern Rite?
Posted by: Curmudgeon at July 18, 2018 08:00 PM (ujg0T)
413
The Russians at the time were Russian Orthodox. The western half of Ukraine were in Full Communion with Rome.
Posted by: JAS at July 18, 2018 07:54 PM (3HNOQ)
The Uniate Church. Their priests are the only priests in Communion with Rome who are allowed to marry--not counting married Anglican or Lutheran ministers who joined the RC Church
Posted by: JAS at July 18, 2018 07:54 PM (3HNOQ)
The Uniate Church. Their priests are the only priests in Communion with Rome who are allowed to marry--not counting married Anglican or Lutheran ministers who joined the RC Church
Posted by: JoeF. at July 18, 2018 08:00 PM (y8Foj)
414
Japan kept her Emperor and other systems of government.
Posted by: Boulder t'hobo at July 18, 2018 07:35 PM (NlLAv)
... the difference between the Empire's military government and modern Japanese democracy is night and day man. And we occupied Japan for some time.
It probably helped that at the first sign of trouble, America would have shipped over millions of furious Chinese to finish the Japanese off forever. On the whole, I am happy cooler heads prevailed.
Posted by: Boulder t'hobo at July 18, 2018 07:35 PM (NlLAv)
... the difference between the Empire's military government and modern Japanese democracy is night and day man. And we occupied Japan for some time.
It probably helped that at the first sign of trouble, America would have shipped over millions of furious Chinese to finish the Japanese off forever. On the whole, I am happy cooler heads prevailed.
Posted by: trev006 at July 18, 2018 08:00 PM (S6rSu)
415
seriously. the damn thing could anchor an ocean liner.
Posted by: Cannibal Bob at July 18, 2018 08:02 PM (Zmczq)
416
Eastern, Greek and Russian Orthodox priests can marry. But if they do, they can never become a bishop.
You sure about that in the Ukrainian Catholic church?
You sure about that in the Ukrainian Catholic church?
Posted by: JAS at July 18, 2018 08:02 PM (3HNOQ)
417
Interesting how the Bosnia war never gets mentioned any more.
Posted by: notsothoreau at July 18, 2018 08:02 PM (JKNZq)
418
I see I am out of sync with the horde hive mind, so I'm going back to Civ VI. I am going to dominate that game one day, or die.
One day you all will miss me when I am just a mummified body in the back bedroom that no one knows about until the tax man forcloses on the property for unpaid property taxes and the sheriff investigates the odd smell.
I see I am out of sync with the horde hive mind, so I'm going back to Civ VI. I am going to dominate that game one day, or die.
One day you all will miss me when I am just a mummified body in the back bedroom that no one knows about until the tax man forcloses on the property for unpaid property taxes and the sheriff investigates the odd smell.
Posted by: Skandia Recluse at July 18, 2018 08:03 PM (roQNm)
419
410 I recall that the word for Starvation in Russian means dancing nude in the woods in Ukrainian. Not a multi linguist, but I think this is actually true. At lest the Uke translator said it was so.
Posted by: Puddin Head at July 18, 2018 07:59 PM
Its prObably true. I read a book about some who managed to hide and survive in the woods. The story of my maternal grandfather is that he escaped the Russian army (they put Ukrainians on the front lines) and hid in the woods for a while.
Posted by: Puddin Head at July 18, 2018 07:59 PM
Its prObably true. I read a book about some who managed to hide and survive in the woods. The story of my maternal grandfather is that he escaped the Russian army (they put Ukrainians on the front lines) and hid in the woods for a while.
Posted by: Roxanne, Roxanne at July 18, 2018 08:03 PM (xU7mE)
420
I think the critical piece is that of people identifying themselves as a people who want to live together and govern themselves.
That's the common thread through the Ukrainians, the Kurds, and the Israelis.
Posted by: Deplorable Jay Guevara, now with a spark of divinity at July 18, 2018 07:50 PM (ez9Rh)
self determination is a good concept, unfortunately abused a lot. gave excuse for Britain to split India in the 40's. Gave the EU excuse to dismember Yugoslavia.
That's the common thread through the Ukrainians, the Kurds, and the Israelis.
Posted by: Deplorable Jay Guevara, now with a spark of divinity at July 18, 2018 07:50 PM (ez9Rh)
self determination is a good concept, unfortunately abused a lot. gave excuse for Britain to split India in the 40's. Gave the EU excuse to dismember Yugoslavia.
Posted by: runner at July 18, 2018 08:03 PM (bUjCl)
421
This review is of the REMAKE of ALL quiet on the Western Front, starring Richard John Boy Walton Thomas as Paul, Ernest Borgnine as Sergeant Katz and Brian Dennehy as Western Europe.
You will recall version of the movie also ended badly for everyone, but you didn't care because John Boy was such a whiny bitch.
You will recall version of the movie also ended badly for everyone, but you didn't care because John Boy was such a whiny bitch.
Posted by: Sharkman at July 18, 2018 08:04 PM (+BKF+)
422
You sure about that in the Ukrainian Catholic church?
Posted by: JAS at July 18, 2018 08:02 PM (3HNOQ)
Yes, the Ukranian Catholics--connected with Rome--can marry, but they can't become bishops. Same with the Melkite (Syrian) Catholic Church.
Posted by: JAS at July 18, 2018 08:02 PM (3HNOQ)
Yes, the Ukranian Catholics--connected with Rome--can marry, but they can't become bishops. Same with the Melkite (Syrian) Catholic Church.
Posted by: JoeF. at July 18, 2018 08:05 PM (y8Foj)
423
Priests can marry and do what?
Posted by: J.J. Sefton at July 18, 2018 07:58 PM (VM6ev)
do marry
Priests can marry and do what?
Posted by: J.J. Sefton at July 18, 2018 07:58 PM (VM6ev)
do marry
Posted by: runner at July 18, 2018 08:05 PM (bUjCl)
424
Gave the EU excuse to dismember Yugoslavia.
???
IIRC, Yugoslavia fell apart immediately after Tito's death.
???
IIRC, Yugoslavia fell apart immediately after Tito's death.
Posted by: JAS at July 18, 2018 08:05 PM (3HNOQ)
Posted by: JAS at July 18, 2018 08:06 PM (3HNOQ)
426
IIRC, Yugoslavia fell apart immediately after Tito's death.
Posted by: JAS at July 18, 2018 08:05 PM (3HNOQ)
The Jackson Five fell apart too.
He really was the indispensable member.
Posted by: JAS at July 18, 2018 08:05 PM (3HNOQ)
The Jackson Five fell apart too.
He really was the indispensable member.
Posted by: Dack Thrombosis at July 18, 2018 08:06 PM (4ErVI)
427
Fuck, I'm late to this discussion. In case anyone hasn't made this point, Ukraine was part of the Bloodlands who had the shit beat out of them first by the commies and the Nazis. The commies reduced them to cannibalism by starving them while sending the crops to Russia. Then the Nazis pounded them as well. I appreciate where JJ is coming from but a not well educated country is going to look for scapegoats to blame having the fuck beat out of them and that meant the Jews. I'm not excusing it as much as saying why it happened.
Also if you're in an occupied country and have to make some hard choices regarding whether you and your family would live or die, it takes a very brave person to choose to not knuckle under; one willing to watch his/her family die for it.
Back to the topic, Cock Curious sold out Ukraine just like he did every other country fighting for freedom.
Also if you're in an occupied country and have to make some hard choices regarding whether you and your family would live or die, it takes a very brave person to choose to not knuckle under; one willing to watch his/her family die for it.
Back to the topic, Cock Curious sold out Ukraine just like he did every other country fighting for freedom.
Posted by: Captain Hate at July 18, 2018 08:06 PM (y7DUB)
428
self determination is a good concept, unfortunately abused a lot. gave excuse for Britain to split India in the 40's. Gave the EU excuse to dismember Yugoslavia.
Posted by: runner at July 18, 2018 08:03 PM (bUjCl)
Meh, Jinnah was never going to agree with Gandhi, who for his part stupidly insisted upon a unitary rather than a federal nation, and the British were broke and just looking for a way out at that point.
As for Yugoslav dismemberment, demanding an artificial nation of Bosnia be created, which was chock full of Serbs wishing to be Serbian and Croats wishing to be Croatian, was doomed to fail.
Posted by: runner at July 18, 2018 08:03 PM (bUjCl)
Meh, Jinnah was never going to agree with Gandhi, who for his part stupidly insisted upon a unitary rather than a federal nation, and the British were broke and just looking for a way out at that point.
As for Yugoslav dismemberment, demanding an artificial nation of Bosnia be created, which was chock full of Serbs wishing to be Serbian and Croats wishing to be Croatian, was doomed to fail.
Posted by: Curmudgeon at July 18, 2018 08:06 PM (ujg0T)
429
The fracking revolution made this discussion possible. A world dependent on middle east oil flowing reliably is not a happy, peaceful world.
Posted by: 2009Refugee at July 18, 2018 08:07 PM (2xR5z)
430
Roxanne Roxanne - what a story. Your parents and grandparents must be very strong people.
Posted by: grammie winger at July 18, 2018 08:07 PM (lwiT4)
431
self determination is a good concept, unfortunately abused a lot. gave excuse for Britain to split India in the 40's. Gave the EU excuse to dismember Yugoslavia.
Posted by: runner at July 18, 2018 08:03 PM (bUjCl)
The problem is that when the desire for self determination is strong, ignoring or suppressing it just leads to further, grievous problems.
See, e.g., various countries in Africa that subsume into them tribes that historically have been hostile to each other. Even India, as you mention, had a lot of strife between the Muslims and the Hindus. Letting them go their own way was probably not such a bad thing.
Posted by: runner at July 18, 2018 08:03 PM (bUjCl)
The problem is that when the desire for self determination is strong, ignoring or suppressing it just leads to further, grievous problems.
See, e.g., various countries in Africa that subsume into them tribes that historically have been hostile to each other. Even India, as you mention, had a lot of strife between the Muslims and the Hindus. Letting them go their own way was probably not such a bad thing.
Posted by: Deplorable Jay Guevara, now with a spark of divinity at July 18, 2018 08:07 PM (ez9Rh)
432
your account of ukraine-russina relations is very one-sided and seems to be largely informed by ukranians you met.
i have been to ukraine and love it. i recommend everyone visits them for vacation - it's dirt cheap, safe, interesting and full of history. women - and even men - are stunning.
as for politics, though - there are basically 3 types of ukrainians - pro-russians/russians many of whom live in the east; virulent anti-russians (west) and large group who are in the middle. the point is - a lot of ukranian citizens are either russians or are supportive of russia or are not very much against russia. these are the people who elected yanukovich. you take current ukranian borders as a given but in fact many pro-russian ukranianias would rather be a part of russia than a part of ukraine ruled by an anti-russian president.
i have been to ukraine and love it. i recommend everyone visits them for vacation - it's dirt cheap, safe, interesting and full of history. women - and even men - are stunning.
as for politics, though - there are basically 3 types of ukrainians - pro-russians/russians many of whom live in the east; virulent anti-russians (west) and large group who are in the middle. the point is - a lot of ukranian citizens are either russians or are supportive of russia or are not very much against russia. these are the people who elected yanukovich. you take current ukranian borders as a given but in fact many pro-russian ukranianias would rather be a part of russia than a part of ukraine ruled by an anti-russian president.
Posted by: hm... at July 18, 2018 08:08 PM (Zhe6p)
433
430 Roxanne Roxanne - what a story. Your parents and grandparents must be very strong people.
Posted by: grammie winger at July 18, 2018 08:07 PM (lwiT4)
I want to be her man!
Posted by: grammie winger at July 18, 2018 08:07 PM (lwiT4)
I want to be her man!
Posted by: Curmudgeon at July 18, 2018 08:08 PM (ujg0T)
434
272 Wish you were here is the greatest prog rock single album in history."
Nah, "Wish you were here" is the greatest Psychedelic Rock album in history. "Leftoverture", especially the "Magnum Opus" is the greatest Prog Rock album in the history of the Galaxy.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dumOc5V_PcE
Nah, "Wish you were here" is the greatest Psychedelic Rock album in history. "Leftoverture", especially the "Magnum Opus" is the greatest Prog Rock album in the history of the Galaxy.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dumOc5V_PcE
Posted by: Tom Servo at July 18, 2018 08:08 PM (V2Yro)
435
Moralism vs. Realism. We also see this dichotomy in politics. The left vs. the right. Although Moralism is actually virtue signaling.
I have been waiting a few days to see what's up with Lisa Page's testimony that contraindicated that demon possessed guy, what's-his-face. Or, maybe it should be what-is-his-face. Anyway, from what we get from conservative sources (real not cuckservative), she said something to the effect that shows one or both of them are lying. Why hasn't anyone used this to take Strzok down? Anybody? Bueller? Mueller?
Seriously, Trump hasn't even tweeted about this. We know Snoozy McSnoozerton has recused himself because he is warming up for his eventual dirt nap , but I have only seen a couple of items concerning this bombshell. Have we just been lied to again?
I have been waiting a few days to see what's up with Lisa Page's testimony that contraindicated that demon possessed guy, what's-his-face. Or, maybe it should be what-is-his-face. Anyway, from what we get from conservative sources (real not cuckservative), she said something to the effect that shows one or both of them are lying. Why hasn't anyone used this to take Strzok down? Anybody? Bueller? Mueller?
Seriously, Trump hasn't even tweeted about this. We know Snoozy McSnoozerton has recused himself because he is warming up for his eventual dirt nap , but I have only seen a couple of items concerning this bombshell. Have we just been lied to again?
Posted by: Anonymous White Male at July 18, 2018 08:09 PM (9BLnV)
436
423
Priests can marry and do what?
Posted by: J.J. Sefton at July 18, 2018 07:58 PM (VM6ev)
do marry
Posted by: runner
There's a celibacy joke waiting to be made
Priests can marry and do what?
Posted by: J.J. Sefton at July 18, 2018 07:58 PM (VM6ev)
do marry
Posted by: runner
There's a celibacy joke waiting to be made
Posted by: 2009Refugee at July 18, 2018 08:09 PM (2xR5z)
437
Yikes, lotta content for later.
Meanwhile instead of just denuking the various #SSR's we should have helped them turn a few into Moscow Only killers. Because thugs are going to thug.
Meanwhile instead of just denuking the various #SSR's we should have helped them turn a few into Moscow Only killers. Because thugs are going to thug.
Posted by: DaveA at July 18, 2018 08:10 PM (FhXTo)
438
Too late, haven't read most of the comments, so maybe already covered (but probably not).
No, ace, your division of moral vs. realistic, while justifiable for purposes of discussion, in the real world is generally *not* a division that actually applies to most US national security decisions.
Why is that? Because the modern US takes up arms, almost exclusively, against vile dirtbags, genocidal tyrants, dangerous crazy people, and geopolitical foes who all happen to match one or more of those descriptions. There is, generally, a confluence of "moral" and "realist" motivations - though the "realist" ones drive the bus.
Purely "moral" interventions, of any significance, are/were quite rare. Kosovo is the only modern one of any size. Not saying it was justified on those grounds - but there wasn't even the pretense that vital interests were engaged.
We didn't flatten and incinerate and starve Germany and Japan to improve their civic culture and give women the vote etc., but those were direct consequences of our victories there.
We didn't invade Iraq in order to replace genocidal tyranny with a much more open society, but that was a direct result. An uncontainable (in the respects that mattered post-9/11), unmanageable and utterly reckless (as long demonstrated) regime posed a dilemma with only two choices. One choice was taken.
And while vile and appalling, the irresponsibility of the Dems (and cowardice of much of the GOP and "independents") in situations like Iraq should not provide a veto. Notice how the whining and hysteria died down after "the surge" (which was just the long long over-due application of common sense, quickly and easily ending the lamest "insurgency" in modern times).
But let's decide on way or the other. If enough of the country will continue to be untrustworthy with decisions involving their own security, if those involve use of force, with Dems leading the revolt the nanosecond things become "haaaaard!!", then Why TF do we have a military like we have?
For pure "defense", the US military posture could be 1/3 or 1/4 of what is now. We could use the budget savings. And the country really has revoked its own license to put its citizens in harm's way, with the behavior WRT Iraq (though I don't think it was that big an issue in the general, vs. the Dem primary, in '0. This Trump defense build up is insane - if some of his own dumbest statements on the general topic of intervention are to be taken seriously.
No, ace, your division of moral vs. realistic, while justifiable for purposes of discussion, in the real world is generally *not* a division that actually applies to most US national security decisions.
Why is that? Because the modern US takes up arms, almost exclusively, against vile dirtbags, genocidal tyrants, dangerous crazy people, and geopolitical foes who all happen to match one or more of those descriptions. There is, generally, a confluence of "moral" and "realist" motivations - though the "realist" ones drive the bus.
Purely "moral" interventions, of any significance, are/were quite rare. Kosovo is the only modern one of any size. Not saying it was justified on those grounds - but there wasn't even the pretense that vital interests were engaged.
We didn't flatten and incinerate and starve Germany and Japan to improve their civic culture and give women the vote etc., but those were direct consequences of our victories there.
We didn't invade Iraq in order to replace genocidal tyranny with a much more open society, but that was a direct result. An uncontainable (in the respects that mattered post-9/11), unmanageable and utterly reckless (as long demonstrated) regime posed a dilemma with only two choices. One choice was taken.
And while vile and appalling, the irresponsibility of the Dems (and cowardice of much of the GOP and "independents") in situations like Iraq should not provide a veto. Notice how the whining and hysteria died down after "the surge" (which was just the long long over-due application of common sense, quickly and easily ending the lamest "insurgency" in modern times).
But let's decide on way or the other. If enough of the country will continue to be untrustworthy with decisions involving their own security, if those involve use of force, with Dems leading the revolt the nanosecond things become "haaaaard!!", then Why TF do we have a military like we have?
For pure "defense", the US military posture could be 1/3 or 1/4 of what is now. We could use the budget savings. And the country really has revoked its own license to put its citizens in harm's way, with the behavior WRT Iraq (though I don't think it was that big an issue in the general, vs. the Dem primary, in '0
. This Trump defense build up is insane - if some of his own dumbest statements on the general topic of intervention are to be taken seriously.
Posted by: rhomboid at July 18, 2018 08:10 PM (QDnY+)
439
Roxanne Roxanne - what a story. Your parents and grandparents must be very strong people.
Posted by: grammie winger at July 18, 2018 08:07 PM (lwiT4)
I want to be her man!
Posted by: Curmudgeon
So she won't have to put on the red light.
Good luck getting that out of your head.
Posted by: grammie winger at July 18, 2018 08:07 PM (lwiT4)
I want to be her man!
Posted by: Curmudgeon
So she won't have to put on the red light.
Good luck getting that out of your head.
Posted by: Prince Ludwig the Deplorable at July 18, 2018 08:11 PM (pwT9v)
440
From Huntington: Serbia is Russian Orthodox. Croatia is Roman Catholic. Bosnia is Muslim.
They were NEVER going to become a nation.
They were NEVER going to become a nation.
Posted by: JAS at July 18, 2018 08:11 PM (3HNOQ)
441
Mont Blanc has very overrated pens.
Posted by: Cosmic Charlie at July 18, 2018 08:11 PM (PUmDY)
Posted by: andycanuck at July 18, 2018 08:11 PM (Evws/)
Posted by: DaveA at July 18, 2018 08:12 PM (FhXTo)
444
Wish you were here is the greatest prog rock single album in history."
Nah, "Wish you were here" is the greatest Psychedelic Rock album in history. "Leftoverture", especially the "Magnum Opus" is the greatest Prog Rock album in the history of the Galaxy.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dumOc5V_PcE
Posted by: Tom Servo at July 18, 2018 08:08 PM (V2Yro)
Not to wade in to the Prog-Rock wars, but a lot of people don't consider Pink Floyd a true "progressive" rock band.
In the Court of the Crimson King and The Yes Album are the two great prog rock albums
Nah, "Wish you were here" is the greatest Psychedelic Rock album in history. "Leftoverture", especially the "Magnum Opus" is the greatest Prog Rock album in the history of the Galaxy.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dumOc5V_PcE
Posted by: Tom Servo at July 18, 2018 08:08 PM (V2Yro)
Not to wade in to the Prog-Rock wars, but a lot of people don't consider Pink Floyd a true "progressive" rock band.
In the Court of the Crimson King and The Yes Album are the two great prog rock albums
Posted by: JoeF. at July 18, 2018 08:12 PM (y8Foj)
445
Oh - and the Ukraine example, I think, is a pretty horrible one to make your point, ace, only because it was - of course - completely mishandled by the idiots in power at the time, so much so that I don't think there's much wisdom to be drawn from it other than the already-known "don't put such fucking idiots in power".
Posted by: rhomboid at July 18, 2018 08:13 PM (QDnY+)
446
441 Mont Blanc has very overrated pens.
----------------
The fountain pens require high quality paper with tooth. Translation, they like biters.
----------------
The fountain pens require high quality paper with tooth. Translation, they like biters.
Posted by: Puddin Head at July 18, 2018 08:13 PM (vV/gB)
447
From Huntington: Serbia is Russian Orthodox. Croatia is Roman Catholic. Bosnia is Muslim.
They were NEVER going to become a nation.
Posted by: JAS at July 18, 2018 08:11 PM (3HNOQ)
And Albania is all three....
They were NEVER going to become a nation.
Posted by: JAS at July 18, 2018 08:11 PM (3HNOQ)
And Albania is all three....
Posted by: JoeF. at July 18, 2018 08:13 PM (y8Foj)
Posted by: Bill Kristol at July 18, 2018 08:13 PM (ARUHl)
449
Meh, Jinnah was never going to agree with Gandhi, who for his part stupidly insisted upon a unitary rather than a federal nation, and the British were broke and just looking for a way out at that point.
As for Yugoslav dismemberment, demanding an artificial nation of Bosnia be created, which was chock full of Serbs wishing to be Serbian and Croats wishing to be Croatian, was doomed to fail.
Posted by: Curmudgeon at July 18, 2018 08:06 PM (ujg0T)
the Brits - did the same thing in the ME, looking for a way out, left a mess.
As for Yugoslav dismemberment, demanding an artificial nation of Bosnia be created, which was chock full of Serbs wishing to be Serbian and Croats wishing to be Croatian, was doomed to fail.
Posted by: Curmudgeon at July 18, 2018 08:06 PM (ujg0T)
the Brits - did the same thing in the ME, looking for a way out, left a mess.
Posted by: runner at July 18, 2018 08:14 PM (bUjCl)
450
440 From Huntington: Serbia is Russian Orthodox. Croatia is Roman Catholic. Bosnia is Muslim.
They were NEVER going to become a nation.
Posted by: JAS at July 18, 2018 08:11 PM (3HNOQ)
Yet you can go south and Albania has all three!
It's a mess due largely to other factors, but they are a unified country and have been for some time.
They were NEVER going to become a nation.
Posted by: JAS at July 18, 2018 08:11 PM (3HNOQ)
Yet you can go south and Albania has all three!
It's a mess due largely to other factors, but they are a unified country and have been for some time.
Posted by: Dack Thrombosis at July 18, 2018 08:14 PM (4ErVI)
451
I saw Holly Roman open for Stormy Daniels at the Empire State Plaza back in the noughties.
Posted by: Anachronda at July 18, 2018 07:51 PM (NmR1a)
Define "open".
Better yet, don't.
Posted by: Anachronda at July 18, 2018 07:51 PM (NmR1a)
Define "open".
Better yet, don't.
Posted by: Super-elite Deplorable Ian Galt, now with sparks of divinity at July 18, 2018 08:14 PM (8iiMU)
452
One choice was taken.
What he said.
Let's look at the field 5 years down the Trump/MbS road and ask where it would be if Saddam or all the other assholes we've killed were still there.
What he said.
Let's look at the field 5 years down the Trump/MbS road and ask where it would be if Saddam or all the other assholes we've killed were still there.
Posted by: DaveA at July 18, 2018 08:15 PM (FhXTo)
453
Maybe in Albania, they learned to live together because of their shared hatred of Communism.
Posted by: JAS at July 18, 2018 08:15 PM (3HNOQ)
454
ya, take a tour around Ukraine and one notices the abundance of talented and beautiful females. RAWR!!
Posted by: Balrog of Morgoth at July 18, 2018 08:15 PM (ARUHl)
455
The United States Deep State overthrew the government of Ukraine in 2004 and then again in 2014, both times with an eye toward similarly deposing the government of Russia. We are not the good guys, here.
Posted by: ZW at July 18, 2018 08:16 PM (KpJNr)
456
rhomboid, do you not think we need the military that PDT is rebuilding when being faced with half of Europe , ah shit, I just answered my own question. We are long gone and so is most of the west.
Posted by: Ben Had at July 18, 2018 08:16 PM (8T7EF)
457
You kind of forgot to mention that we were a major player and removing all of Ukraine's heavy weapons.
Posted by: Dick at July 18, 2018 08:17 PM (SRarZ)
458
Maybe in Albania, they learned to live together because of their shared hatred of Communism.
Posted by: JAS at July 18, 2018 08:15 PM (3HNOQ)
Obama's blatherings notwithstanding, "Strongmen" have an ability to keep tribal feuds tamped down...
Posted by: JAS at July 18, 2018 08:15 PM (3HNOQ)
Obama's blatherings notwithstanding, "Strongmen" have an ability to keep tribal feuds tamped down...
Posted by: JoeF. at July 18, 2018 08:17 PM (y8Foj)
459
Also, "the Ukraine" is the name of a region. "Ukraine" is the name of a country. The same applies to "the Sudan" and "la Argentina".
Posted by: ZW at July 18, 2018 08:18 PM (KpJNr)
460
Nood
Posted by: JAS at July 18, 2018 08:18 PM (3HNOQ)
461
As a lurker or many years, I have to say that this is the best article I have ever read on this site or just about any other.
Posted by: Texas 1911 at July 18, 2018 08:19 PM (Tgix9)
462
Starship Troopers is my fav prog rock song, JF
Posted by: Cosmic Charlie at July 18, 2018 08:19 PM (PUmDY)
463
Thanks ace.
Ukraine is a perfect example of why treaties are mostly bull-s ... before the ink has even dried. There was no way to enforce Budapest. I'm amazed the Ukrainians bothered to sign it. Maybe everyone just wanted the loose nukes tucked safely away. The Brits showed up because their accents made the whole thing sound official.
Just as Minsk II was bull from the moment it was announced. But this time the Ukrainians didn't even get an invite.
The ukr military leadership were nothing more than office decorations - interior decor by Moscow.
Ukraine is a perfect example of why treaties are mostly bull-s ... before the ink has even dried. There was no way to enforce Budapest. I'm amazed the Ukrainians bothered to sign it. Maybe everyone just wanted the loose nukes tucked safely away. The Brits showed up because their accents made the whole thing sound official.
Just as Minsk II was bull from the moment it was announced. But this time the Ukrainians didn't even get an invite.
The ukr military leadership were nothing more than office decorations - interior decor by Moscow.
Posted by: 13times at July 18, 2018 08:19 PM (K3B2k)
464
As to the topic at hand, remember Russia pumped a bunch of Russians into the Ukraine back during the heady days of communism.
They did that other places too. They also moved entire populations to other places. It really works to keep troublemakers under control.
I've not a lot of doubt that the Crimea voted to rejoin Russia. Because it's full of Russians. Russians wanted it back in the day and got limited by the Ottomans and a bunch of western powers.
They did that other places too. They also moved entire populations to other places. It really works to keep troublemakers under control.
I've not a lot of doubt that the Crimea voted to rejoin Russia. Because it's full of Russians. Russians wanted it back in the day and got limited by the Ottomans and a bunch of western powers.
Posted by: Dack Thrombosis at July 18, 2018 08:20 PM (4ErVI)
465
Bosnia was a multi ethnic state until Izetbegovic turned it Islamic with the help of Slick and the MFM
Posted by: Captain Hate at July 18, 2018 08:20 PM (y7DUB)
466
Not to wade in to the Prog-Rock wars, but a lot of people don't consider Pink Floyd a true "progressive" rock band.
In the Court of the Crimson King and The Yes Album are the two great prog rock albums
Posted by: JoeF
In the '70s, the ONLY rock band in the world with a permanent oboe player was...King Crimson!
Based on this oboe fact alone, King Crimson is automatically the greatest band of all time.
In the Court of the Crimson King and The Yes Album are the two great prog rock albums
Posted by: JoeF
In the '70s, the ONLY rock band in the world with a permanent oboe player was...King Crimson!
Based on this oboe fact alone, King Crimson is automatically the greatest band of all time.
Posted by: zombie at July 18, 2018 08:22 PM (c+2jX)
Posted by: zombie at July 18, 2018 08:23 PM (c+2jX)
468
sounds just like ww2
Britain made assurances to Poland that they couldn't meet
Britain made assurances to Poland that they couldn't meet
Posted by: Avi at July 18, 2018 08:24 PM (wA4B4)
469
Japan kept her Emperor and other systems of government. Japan didnt even apologise. the emperor just had to agree that he was done being Japan's god and done with invading non Japanese land.
Posted by: Boulder t'hobo at July 18, 2018 07:35 PM
Biographies of Douglas MacArthur show that he personally took complete credit for orchestrating that, to the point that he led the drive to absolve Hirohito from any blame for the conduct of the war, when in fact there was a lot of evidence that Hirohito was completely in sync with Tojo and the rest.
MacArthur's logic was that the Japanese obviously could be fanatical, and an American occupation while facing a angry and resistant population would be incredibly difficult and bloody. On the other hand, he also observed that they were a very obedient people, and if they were allowed to keep their Emperor, they could be ordered to Stand Down and the occupation could proceed with a minimum of trouble and expense. MacArthur saw himself as playing the part of a modern day Shogun, the man who actually controlled all power in the country, while allowing the Emperor to be a figurehead who could keep the population pacified.
It wasn't long before Mao, backed by Stalin, achieved complete control over mainland China, and every leader in America thanked their lucky stars that they had allowed MaCarthur to have his way, and that Japan had now become a peaceful and secure forward operating base for US power in the Pacific.
Posted by: Boulder t'hobo at July 18, 2018 07:35 PM
Biographies of Douglas MacArthur show that he personally took complete credit for orchestrating that, to the point that he led the drive to absolve Hirohito from any blame for the conduct of the war, when in fact there was a lot of evidence that Hirohito was completely in sync with Tojo and the rest.
MacArthur's logic was that the Japanese obviously could be fanatical, and an American occupation while facing a angry and resistant population would be incredibly difficult and bloody. On the other hand, he also observed that they were a very obedient people, and if they were allowed to keep their Emperor, they could be ordered to Stand Down and the occupation could proceed with a minimum of trouble and expense. MacArthur saw himself as playing the part of a modern day Shogun, the man who actually controlled all power in the country, while allowing the Emperor to be a figurehead who could keep the population pacified.
It wasn't long before Mao, backed by Stalin, achieved complete control over mainland China, and every leader in America thanked their lucky stars that they had allowed MaCarthur to have his way, and that Japan had now become a peaceful and secure forward operating base for US power in the Pacific.
Posted by: Tom Servo at July 18, 2018 08:25 PM (V2Yro)
470
Albania! Albania!
You border on the Adriatic,
your land is mostly mountainous
and your chief export is chrome!
You border on the Adriatic,
your land is mostly mountainous
and your chief export is chrome!
Posted by: zombie 'coach' at July 18, 2018 08:28 PM (Evws/)
471
Both Obama and Trump as well as most Americans since about 2006 said they were against the Iraq War; yet in 2018 troops are still there as well as Syria and Afghanistan.
While serving in Iraq in 2005/2006, I would see pundits talk about how we won WW I and WW II in a few years but not mention the massive casualties suffered. War is a blood sport and you can not guarantee the length or number of casualties since your enemy also has a say in that.
While serving in Iraq in 2005/2006, I would see pundits talk about how we won WW I and WW II in a few years but not mention the massive casualties suffered. War is a blood sport and you can not guarantee the length or number of casualties since your enemy also has a say in that.
Posted by: YatYas at July 18, 2018 08:36 PM (xN9Un)
472
Europe learned their lesson the last time they got over their skies...the role reversal between US and EU in the case of the Balkan civil war is striking.
https://www.nytimes.com/1992/01/16/world/europe-backing-germans-accepts-yugoslav-breakup.html
https://www.nytimes.com/1992/01/16/world/europe-backing-germans-accepts-yugoslav-breakup.html
Posted by: markb at July 18, 2018 08:37 PM (K39F0)
473
430 Roxanne Roxanne - what a story. Your parents and grandparents must be very strong people.
Posted by: grammie winger at July 18, 2018 08:07 PM (lwiT4)
Thanks grammie. Unfortunately they never ever liked to talk about it. All we have now is what my parents know from hearing stories. My parents are in their 70s, so the history is being lost.
Posted by: grammie winger at July 18, 2018 08:07 PM (lwiT4)
Thanks grammie. Unfortunately they never ever liked to talk about it. All we have now is what my parents know from hearing stories. My parents are in their 70s, so the history is being lost.
Posted by: Roxanne, Roxanne at July 18, 2018 08:38 PM (xU7mE)
474
Checks for wars should not be lightly written because, in the end, the checks are cashed with the blood of American soldiers.
Posted by: blake - used comment salesman at July 18, 2018 08:39 PM (WEBkv)
475
Former liberal here, turned on to your site several years ago by a Libertarian friend. Became a seen-the-light Conservative as a result of regular visits. Thank you for your educational services. This piece is a comprehensive and SANE analysis of foreign policy that continues your tradition of impressive wisdom. Carry on!
Posted by: KatNip at July 18, 2018 08:47 PM (+FtdW)
476
@474:
Beautiful simplicity there and absolutely right.
To ace's larger point, we have arrived as a point where citizen input into what should or should not prompt war is dismissed out of hand as "populism." So I should be free to dismiss out of hand needless entanglements and interventions as "imperialism," the difference being I would be right.
Beautiful simplicity there and absolutely right.
To ace's larger point, we have arrived as a point where citizen input into what should or should not prompt war is dismissed out of hand as "populism." So I should be free to dismiss out of hand needless entanglements and interventions as "imperialism," the difference being I would be right.
Posted by: Trump poisoned my cat at July 18, 2018 08:48 PM (CDfww)
477
Sure enough, I looked in the fridge, and right there in front was a little Russian dressing.
Things are getting creepy.
Things are getting creepy.
Posted by: ro-man at July 18, 2018 08:49 PM (RuIsu)
478
Isn't Afghanistan Obama's War? Unless I'm mistaken, he's the dope who escalated from SF ops and various sorties to a full blown occupation.
Posted by: Fritz at July 18, 2018 08:52 PM (RfYYV)
479
330 Seeing a lot of nicks I don't recognize in this thread.
Posted by: Grey Fox at July 18, 2018 07:42 PM (bZ7mE)
===
Probably people like me. Who have been reading this blog since I got it on a Bondi Blue iMac. But I rarely post any more, since these comments are usually a scrum of in-jokes and repetitive fealty before Trump.
I mean... I mean... how you say in English? I have checque to cash from Soros, yesss?
Posted by: Grey Fox at July 18, 2018 07:42 PM (bZ7mE)
===
Probably people like me. Who have been reading this blog since I got it on a Bondi Blue iMac. But I rarely post any more, since these comments are usually a scrum of in-jokes and repetitive fealty before Trump.
I mean... I mean... how you say in English? I have checque to cash from Soros, yesss?
Posted by: Dr. Spaceman at July 18, 2018 09:00 PM (HCeK1)
480
Just getting to this one - glad I read every word.
(Standing ovation.)
You know what I liked about 2000 Presidential candidate George W Bush? That he said he wasn't into "nation building". Yeah, I know 9/11 changed a lot of minds about a lot of things, but his fundamental misread of the fickleness of the modern American electorate - who expect everything to be wrapped-up in a 22-minute episode plus commercials - was unforgivable.
(Standing ovation.)
You know what I liked about 2000 Presidential candidate George W Bush? That he said he wasn't into "nation building". Yeah, I know 9/11 changed a lot of minds about a lot of things, but his fundamental misread of the fickleness of the modern American electorate - who expect everything to be wrapped-up in a 22-minute episode plus commercials - was unforgivable.
Posted by: DocJ at July 18, 2018 09:03 PM (9TYxj)
481
Top notch content. Thank you, Mr. Ace!
Posted by: Chris M at July 18, 2018 09:06 PM (6XZdO)
482
You know what I liked about 2000 Presidential candidate George W Bush? That he said he wasn't into "nation building". Yeah, I know 9/11 changed a lot of minds about a lot of things, but his fundamental misread of the fickleness of the modern American electorate - who expect everything to be wrapped-up in a 22-minute episode plus commercials - was unforgivable.
Posted by: DocJ at July 18, 2018 09:03 PM (9TYxj)
At the very beginning of the war on terror he stressed that it would be long but then was an absolute failure in terms of regularly speaking to the public on the progress of the war. It was inexcusable that he didn't do that, and I hold that fat fuck Rove in complete contempt for not banging on him regularly to do it, because it allowed the donk/MFM complex to set the narrative. This isn't revisionist history because I was bitching about it at the time; in fact a former 'ette told me that Karen Hughes was the only person in the administration who would bang on GWB to keep the public informed, and when she left the administration that all ended.
Posted by: DocJ at July 18, 2018 09:03 PM (9TYxj)
At the very beginning of the war on terror he stressed that it would be long but then was an absolute failure in terms of regularly speaking to the public on the progress of the war. It was inexcusable that he didn't do that, and I hold that fat fuck Rove in complete contempt for not banging on him regularly to do it, because it allowed the donk/MFM complex to set the narrative. This isn't revisionist history because I was bitching about it at the time; in fact a former 'ette told me that Karen Hughes was the only person in the administration who would bang on GWB to keep the public informed, and when she left the administration that all ended.
Posted by: Captain Hate at July 18, 2018 09:16 PM (y7DUB)
483
Late to this thread (busy day and I am west coast), but please, PLEASE Ace, it is not 'the Ukraine' but Ukraine.
As I've said before in other threads, my heritage is Ukrainian. My father was born here but grew up under the Soviet thumb and during WW II as a young man nearly starved to death in a German labour camp, and I have the German traveling papers of his and my uncle. I went to school with kids whose grandparents ate the family dog to survive the Famine.
He was one of those pro-Reagan Americans, who thought RR was the only one who truly understood the evil. So this is a topic near my heart.
I think you make some great points, but what I cannot emphasize enough is that the US could have helped Ukraine when Russia annexed Crimea, even covertly - we have done it before with other nations. Knowing that the EU were a bunch of pussies, we could have organized maneuvers potentially during the most risky period of facing off versus Russia, offered them tactical or material support through covert means. It is in our best interest to have a strong bulwark against Russian domination because lets face it, it is really Soviet domination.
But no, the US abandoned Ukraine utterly, and this isn't the first time. Ukraine gave up the nukes in her territory after the wall fell, with the assurance the US would support her; that's not turned out well.
Let's also not forget the clusterfuck that was S. Ossetia in Georgia too; when it comes to supporting our allies who were former Soviet sphere nations, our record is dismal.
So where do we go from here with these two? I feel Russia is flexing its muscles - let's face it, Putin is a lowlife sack of Communist scum - and testing our resolve. They don't want to directly threaten us - we still have superiority in tech and equipment - so this is what they do, try to recapture their empire bit by bit.
Probably no one will see this, but I had to say my peace.
As I've said before in other threads, my heritage is Ukrainian. My father was born here but grew up under the Soviet thumb and during WW II as a young man nearly starved to death in a German labour camp, and I have the German traveling papers of his and my uncle. I went to school with kids whose grandparents ate the family dog to survive the Famine.
He was one of those pro-Reagan Americans, who thought RR was the only one who truly understood the evil. So this is a topic near my heart.
I think you make some great points, but what I cannot emphasize enough is that the US could have helped Ukraine when Russia annexed Crimea, even covertly - we have done it before with other nations. Knowing that the EU were a bunch of pussies, we could have organized maneuvers potentially during the most risky period of facing off versus Russia, offered them tactical or material support through covert means. It is in our best interest to have a strong bulwark against Russian domination because lets face it, it is really Soviet domination.
But no, the US abandoned Ukraine utterly, and this isn't the first time. Ukraine gave up the nukes in her territory after the wall fell, with the assurance the US would support her; that's not turned out well.
Let's also not forget the clusterfuck that was S. Ossetia in Georgia too; when it comes to supporting our allies who were former Soviet sphere nations, our record is dismal.
So where do we go from here with these two? I feel Russia is flexing its muscles - let's face it, Putin is a lowlife sack of Communist scum - and testing our resolve. They don't want to directly threaten us - we still have superiority in tech and equipment - so this is what they do, try to recapture their empire bit by bit.
Probably no one will see this, but I had to say my peace.
Posted by: atomicplaygirl - I survived GNAMM 2017 and all I got was this lousy nic at July 18, 2018 09:16 PM (Gim9y)
484
We could have just bombed all suspected WMD sites and presidential palaces and all the other places we suspected there might have been WMDs. And then rebombed them. And then bombed them six months later, in case we thought they had started those sites back producing WMDs.
That would have been far less costly a war.
Posted by: ace at July 18, 2018 06:50 PM (PA9oZ)
Less costly, but substantially riskier, imo.
You're still stoking a long running hot war by bombing things regularly, but mostly relient on aerial and satellite surveillance to identify the threats. If they keep a bunker secret and successfully develop a functioning nuke under those circumstances they'll probably feel completely justified in using it on us.
It's not the same human cost, but it is still a very dangerous proposition. It's almost like toying with wounded prey at that point.
That would have been far less costly a war.
Posted by: ace at July 18, 2018 06:50 PM (PA9oZ)
Less costly, but substantially riskier, imo.
You're still stoking a long running hot war by bombing things regularly, but mostly relient on aerial and satellite surveillance to identify the threats. If they keep a bunker secret and successfully develop a functioning nuke under those circumstances they'll probably feel completely justified in using it on us.
It's not the same human cost, but it is still a very dangerous proposition. It's almost like toying with wounded prey at that point.
Posted by: Sjg at July 18, 2018 09:17 PM (gDSJf)
485
18
Why is it THE Bronx?
Posted by: Soothsayer -- Follow and Lick Me On Fakebook at July 18, 2018 06:46 PM (90V40)
The Bronx is a borough, Ukraine is a sovereign nation, it absolutely should NOT be the Ukraine.
Why is it THE Bronx?
Posted by: Soothsayer -- Follow and Lick Me On Fakebook at July 18, 2018 06:46 PM (90V40)
The Bronx is a borough, Ukraine is a sovereign nation, it absolutely should NOT be the Ukraine.
Posted by: atomicplaygirl - I survived GNAMM 2017 and all I got was this lousy nic at July 18, 2018 09:18 PM (Gim9y)
486
Posted by: J.J. Sefton at July 18, 2018 06:51 PM (VM6ev)
I don't know where you get that idea about Ukraine - my father's family hid Jews fleeing Hitler in the haystacks on their farm, and risked their lives to do so, and knew many others who did. When Ukraine was occupied by Germany, you 'had' to be anti-Semitic.
I don't know where you get that idea about Ukraine - my father's family hid Jews fleeing Hitler in the haystacks on their farm, and risked their lives to do so, and knew many others who did. When Ukraine was occupied by Germany, you 'had' to be anti-Semitic.
Posted by: atomicplaygirl - I survived GNAMM 2017 and all I got was this lousy nic at July 18, 2018 09:23 PM (Gim9y)
487
Posted by: Tom Servo at July 18, 2018 08:25 PM (V2Yro)
Japan has a pretty long history of the emperor often being a mostly ceremonial position and most of the political and military power held by those nominally in service to him.
It was a fairly frequent occurance in Imperial China as well for the ministers and generals to hold the real power.
The renunciation of being a deity was the important concession, not the so much position itself. Strip away the motivation for the suicidal aggression while maintaining a sense of familiarity for the occupied.
Japan has a pretty long history of the emperor often being a mostly ceremonial position and most of the political and military power held by those nominally in service to him.
It was a fairly frequent occurance in Imperial China as well for the ministers and generals to hold the real power.
The renunciation of being a deity was the important concession, not the so much position itself. Strip away the motivation for the suicidal aggression while maintaining a sense of familiarity for the occupied.
Posted by: Sjg at July 18, 2018 09:50 PM (gDSJf)
488
Well written Ace
Posted by: AmericanKestrel at July 18, 2018 10:01 PM (jbyD0)
489
440 From Huntington: Serbia is Russian Orthodox. Croatia is Roman Catholic. Bosnia is Muslim.
They were NEVER going to become a nation.
Posted by: JAS at July 18, 2018 08:11 PM (3HNOQ)
Orthodox Christianity is divided into a number of national churches headed by Patriarchs. These churches are autocephalous, meaning that they are self-ruled but maintain unity with the other Orthodox churches via communion.
Serbia is not Russian Orthodox. Serbia has her own Patriarch and is an autocephalous church on the same equal footing as the Russian Orthodox Church. Georgia is another Orthodox nation that has her own autocephalous church as well.
Ukraine doesn't have an autocephalous church due to the east Slavic region traditionally being the de jure territory of the Patriarch of Moscow.
They were NEVER going to become a nation.
Posted by: JAS at July 18, 2018 08:11 PM (3HNOQ)
Orthodox Christianity is divided into a number of national churches headed by Patriarchs. These churches are autocephalous, meaning that they are self-ruled but maintain unity with the other Orthodox churches via communion.
Serbia is not Russian Orthodox. Serbia has her own Patriarch and is an autocephalous church on the same equal footing as the Russian Orthodox Church. Georgia is another Orthodox nation that has her own autocephalous church as well.
Ukraine doesn't have an autocephalous church due to the east Slavic region traditionally being the de jure territory of the Patriarch of Moscow.
Posted by: Stephen Hall at July 18, 2018 10:22 PM (8UcPk)
490
Greetings:
Victoria Nuland seems to be resurfacing lately on various news and opinion shows. Apparently she's something of a C-level something or other at some kind of NGO type something or other.
Also, she doesn't seem to remember anything about one Hillary Clinton.
Victoria Nuland seems to be resurfacing lately on various news and opinion shows. Apparently she's something of a C-level something or other at some kind of NGO type something or other.
Also, she doesn't seem to remember anything about one Hillary Clinton.
Posted by: 11B40 at July 18, 2018 10:38 PM (evgyj)
491
That was outstanding Ace. Bravo.
Posted by: Rail lurker at July 18, 2018 11:18 PM (45xbG)
492
Ukraine gave up the nukes in her territory after the wall fell, with the assurance the US would support her; that's not turned out well.
Let's also not forget the clusterfuck that was S. Ossetia in Georgia too; when it comes to supporting our allies who were former Soviet sphere nations, our record is dismal.
So where do we go from here with these two? I feel Russia is flexing its muscles - let's face it, Putin is a lowlife sack of Communist scum - and testing our resolve. They don't want to directly threaten us - we still have superiority in tech and equipment - so this is what they do, try to recapture their empire bit by bit.
Probably no one will see this, but I had to say my peace.
Posted by: atomicplaygirl - I survived GNAMM 2017 and all I got was this lousy nic at July 18, 2018 09:16 PM (Gim9y)
I was gonna bring up the nuke thing earlier...we did promise them that. I also don't know why people don't think Putin is evil. He is a murdering, evil sociopath who has displayed unsettling behaviors.
I'm glad you posted atomicplaygirl, and I'm glad I saw it.
Let's also not forget the clusterfuck that was S. Ossetia in Georgia too; when it comes to supporting our allies who were former Soviet sphere nations, our record is dismal.
So where do we go from here with these two? I feel Russia is flexing its muscles - let's face it, Putin is a lowlife sack of Communist scum - and testing our resolve. They don't want to directly threaten us - we still have superiority in tech and equipment - so this is what they do, try to recapture their empire bit by bit.
Probably no one will see this, but I had to say my peace.
Posted by: atomicplaygirl - I survived GNAMM 2017 and all I got was this lousy nic at July 18, 2018 09:16 PM (Gim9y)
I was gonna bring up the nuke thing earlier...we did promise them that. I also don't know why people don't think Putin is evil. He is a murdering, evil sociopath who has displayed unsettling behaviors.
I'm glad you posted atomicplaygirl, and I'm glad I saw it.
Posted by: platypus, gg channel at July 19, 2018 01:22 AM (CiCKR)
Posted by: jg at July 19, 2018 01:23 AM (DkFCF)
494
Late to the party I know, but I think you are dead on here Ace. I have also come to the conclusion that Americans have NO stomach for any long term "investment"in a war situation. The first clue was that we never actually mobilized on the homefront fir the Iraq and Afghanistan disasters (which I regretfully supported).
This lack of mobilization led to mushrooming debt and a populace who never really understood the sacrifice being made by our troops since their lives seemed largely unchanged.
Nation building should forever be debunked. Our motto should be "If you (evil country) don't do "X", we will come and fuck your shit up. THEN we will leave and let YOU rebuild your shithole. And if you continue doing "X" after we leave, we will come BACK and fuck your shit up again, then leave. Thank you, have a nice day."
This lack of mobilization led to mushrooming debt and a populace who never really understood the sacrifice being made by our troops since their lives seemed largely unchanged.
Nation building should forever be debunked. Our motto should be "If you (evil country) don't do "X", we will come and fuck your shit up. THEN we will leave and let YOU rebuild your shithole. And if you continue doing "X" after we leave, we will come BACK and fuck your shit up again, then leave. Thank you, have a nice day."
Posted by: FITP at July 19, 2018 07:04 AM (dXIPJ)
495
Ace, This is one of your best pieces and captures how the democrats use war for their political gain...even if it means us losing a war.
The abandonment of Iraq is personal for me as I dedicated almost decade of my life supporting that effort only to watch all that we had gained from 2007 be thrown away for a campaign slogan. And then when things fell apart in Iraq, Obama and his supporters ran away from his decision and blamed the Iraqis for the exit.
The abandonment of Iraq is personal for me as I dedicated almost decade of my life supporting that effort only to watch all that we had gained from 2007 be thrown away for a campaign slogan. And then when things fell apart in Iraq, Obama and his supporters ran away from his decision and blamed the Iraqis for the exit.
Posted by: MC at July 19, 2018 09:44 AM (eIRds)
496
Late to the party. This is the reason I will never vote Democrat until there is a verifiable shift of the party from just trying to get in power to having any actual scruples. Of course, that will involve a lot of shifting of positions, so I'm not expecting that to happen.
The tragedy of the Iraq war is that a lot of goings-on seem to be remembered differently than how they happened, i.e., the Democrats' propaganda machine worked. They voted, in bulk, for the war because it was a popular thing at the time. But they were facing a behemoth of a popular president in Bush and they needed to bring him down a notch so they could win their elections. So they tanked the war domestically. And it worked because a willing media and those spineless cowards in Congress who conveniently took a stance against the war after committing us into it. They played politics with people's lives. I will never forget that.
The tragedy of the Iraq war is that a lot of goings-on seem to be remembered differently than how they happened, i.e., the Democrats' propaganda machine worked. They voted, in bulk, for the war because it was a popular thing at the time. But they were facing a behemoth of a popular president in Bush and they needed to bring him down a notch so they could win their elections. So they tanked the war domestically. And it worked because a willing media and those spineless cowards in Congress who conveniently took a stance against the war after committing us into it. They played politics with people's lives. I will never forget that.
Posted by: Nutsy the Buzzard at July 19, 2018 10:27 AM (cvpwh)
497
490
Nuland retired and created her own 501c3 non-profit grift scam. Note how her non-partisan organization is only seen on progressive tv. Funny how that works. The neo aristocracy non profit scam really ticks me off.
Nuland retired and created her own 501c3 non-profit grift scam. Note how her non-partisan organization is only seen on progressive tv. Funny how that works. The neo aristocracy non profit scam really ticks me off.
Posted by: 13times at July 19, 2018 05:18 PM (K3B2k)
498
Your history is more than a bit off. The word "Ukraine" means "Border". Border of what? Border of Russia. The Russians did not colonize Ukraine. The Russians came from Ukraine. Kiev is called the mother of cities for a reason. Vladimir Putin shares a name with Vladimir the Great for the simple reason that Russians come from Kieven Rus'. And the people of Kiev were called the Rus', not the Ukes. Russian and Ukrainian are really two dialects of the same language. Russians and Ukrainians have little trouble understanding each other. The actual history of Russia is that the Rus' who lived in what is now Ukraine, spread to the North and to the east into what is now Russia. It is also not true that the Russians suppressed the Ukraine's Church. Both countries are traditionally Orthodox Christian. More than half of the bishops of the Russian Orthodox Church are Ukrainian. The Tsar was called the Tsar of all the Russias (plural). There were 4 Russias: Great Russia (the larger portion, now Russia), Little Russia (Ukraine much smaller in size), White Russia (Belarus), and Carpatho-Russia. All 4 of the Russias speak dialects of Russian, share are common faith, and a common history.
Posted by: Fr. John Whiteford at July 20, 2018 07:21 AM (NqGr1)
499
Also a very large number of the people in Ukraine consider themselves to be Russian, and speak Russian, and if they were given their choice, their portion of Ukraine would be back in Russia. The previous president of Ukraine won the election in a free and fair election, monitored by international observers. We then aided a minority to launch a coup, and overthrow that government, and then we are shocked that some people in Ukraine decided to revolt against our puppet government.
Posted by: Fr. John Whiteford at July 20, 2018 07:29 AM (NqGr1)
500
I give Ace until the midterms before he starts calling for the dissolution of NATO. While Ukraine isn't part of NATO, it's a very thin reed with his rationale to start questioning why we should we go to war for the Baltic states. That way he doesn't have to defend why Trump was oddly submissive to Putin, and ignore that he blamed America on the world stage.
Posted by: dragonlady at July 21, 2018 08:20 PM (W4GCO)
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