Neocon NeverTrump SuperHero John McCain: Gee, Now That I Think About It, Eleven Years of Nation Building in a Backwards Muslim Land Was Sort of a Mistake, Wasn't It?

Now that their hero, the warmonger John McCain, has admitted that Iraq was a mistake -- something that most people were able to admit 8-10 years ago -- will the Never-Admit-Error Neocon NeverTrumpers admit it?

In his new memoir, John McCain concedes that the war in Iraq he fought so hard to launch and then escalate now “can’t be judged as anything other than a mistake, a very serious one, and I have to accept my share of the blame for it.” https://t.co/qxIFQoTfU3
— POLITICO Magazine (@POLITICOMag) May 24, 2018

Speaking of #MuhPrinciples, remember when it was sacred conservative principle that we would never use the military to "nation build" again? And then, little by little, the War in Iraq turned into the 11 year Nation Building Project in Iraq?

I fault myself for having gone along willingly (if uncomfortably) with this. I felt like it was a case of in for a penny, in for the full bloody limb-shearing pound.

But what was billed up front as a war soon became a decadelong nation building and neighborhood policing project.

Some of us have admitted our own folly on that score for years.

Others won't.

But maybe these Brave Conservative Warriors will admit it now that one of their Mind-Leaders have given them permission to do so.

Ah, #MuhPrinciples. How they doth mutate and transform.

Posted by: Ace of Spades at 03:13 PM

Comments

(Jump to bottom of comments)

1 It is not possible that I am first

Posted by: LMD Outer Banker at May 25, 2018 03:05 PM (YuQLm)

2 Early

Posted by: 2009Refugee at May 25, 2018 03:06 PM (2xR5z)

3 rd

Posted by: AltonJackson at May 25, 2018 03:06 PM (ZQfW9)

4 Amazing how that Nation Building thing never quite seems to work out as planned by our betters. Why it's almost if the citizens of a country don't care enough to rescue themselves from a sh!thole of a country, no amount of beneficence outside influence will help!

Posted by: Comrade Hrothgar at May 25, 2018 03:06 PM (n9EOP)

5 beneficient

Posted by: Comrade Hrothgar at May 25, 2018 03:07 PM (n9EOP)

6 And he was one of the most vocal people pushing for the War.

A$$wipe.

Posted by: The Great White Scotsman at May 25, 2018 03:07 PM (+Dllb)

7 Gnin&&&@9#njkHik

Posted by: John McCain at May 25, 2018 03:07 PM (sXefu)

8 Remember "Bomb bomb bomb, bomb bomb Iran!"

Posted by: pogomip at May 25, 2018 03:07 PM (MB2cn)

9 Top ten and read teh content! Winning!

Posted by: cornbred at May 25, 2018 03:07 PM (1tl0t)

10 beneficient

Drat

Posted by: Comrade Hrothgar at May 25, 2018 03:08 PM (n9EOP)

11 Thanks a lot, John.

Posted by: Saddam at May 25, 2018 03:08 PM (6wzJh)

12 Wasn't that long ago he was pushing for the same thing in Syria...

Posted by: Mr. Peebles at May 25, 2018 03:08 PM (oVJmc)

13 I DO NOT regret calling my wife a cunt once in public. Gotta have standards. - John McCain

Posted by: Dr Spank at May 25, 2018 03:08 PM (nKbPK)

14 Liberating and then letting them sort it out might be a better approach. The thing is Muslim countries and their citizens aren't interested in the type of democracy from the west. The best you can hope for is something like what Malaysia and Indonesia have.

Posted by: IC at May 25, 2018 03:09 PM (PEJUg)

15 Fuck this thread and all it's comments.

Posted by: DaveA at May 25, 2018 03:09 PM (FhXTo)

16 If you are gonna build a nation, make sure the foundation is solid. That starts with clearing the landscape.

Posted by: Diogenes at May 25, 2018 03:09 PM (C8I+y)

17 I have mixed thoughts about Iraq. It could have changed the complexion of the Middle East, but now I wonder if we should ever fight another war, as the left will make sure to go quisling in the middle of it.

Posted by: LMD Outer Banker at May 25, 2018 03:09 PM (YuQLm)

18 I believe we'll eventually find out that McCain and the Bush's are deeply involved in this Trump coup. Up to their eyeballs in it.

Posted by: Under Fire at May 25, 2018 03:09 PM (r9UYA)

19 I feel sorry for the tumor that caught a McCain.

Posted by: JC at May 25, 2018 03:09 PM (mJXUS)

20
"... can't be judged as anything other than a mistake, a very serious one, and I have to accept my share of the blame for it."

No one has ever gone into civilian service - let alone the Senate - to accept any share of the blame.

Posted by: Hadrian the Seventh at May 25, 2018 03:10 PM (BWL+E)

21 Make the rubble bounce!

That's the ticket, but noooo the neocons's liked the
"You break it You bought it approach!"

Posted by: Comrade Hrothgar at May 25, 2018 03:10 PM (n9EOP)

22 Even worse lots of money disappeared over there. Like billions of dollars. Who stole that?

Posted by: Dack Thrombosis at May 25, 2018 03:10 PM (4ErVI)

23 Pretty sure that it is A-OK to organize "McLame is dead parties now"

Posted by: Pretty sure at May 25, 2018 03:10 PM (Ymy4N)

24 This is a press release from McCainCo.

Posted by: Mr. Peebles at May 25, 2018 03:10 PM (oVJmc)

25 You really have to respect a guy that can go to his eternal rest with dignity.

Posted by: cornbred at May 25, 2018 03:10 PM (1tl0t)

26 I was a terrible pilot - John McCain

Posted by: Dr Spank at May 25, 2018 03:10 PM (nKbPK)

27 until iran is dealt with by someone, anything else in the middle east is not worth one more american life. let them figure out their shitholes. when will we learn?

Posted by: chavez the hugo at May 25, 2018 03:10 PM (KP5rU)

28 WTF, MAN!!!!

Posted by: Generalissimo Francisco Franco at May 25, 2018 03:11 PM (CPfoe)

29 Palin was obviously a bad pick. She was a sports reporter. You don't pick a sports reporter to be the 2nd in command of the free world. Basic failure of judgment.

Posted by: bjstuggzzz at May 25, 2018 03:11 PM (e44Qj)

30 Well, after 4-5 years of allowing Sadaam to rape and pillage and disperse his stockpile of banned weapons around the Middle East, a little Nation Building was the least we could do.

- Compassionate Conservatives Inc

Posted by: garrett at May 25, 2018 03:11 PM (di+2x)

31
Staffer: "Sign this tweet, Senator."

McCain: "Mpppppfff!... GAAAAAAH!"

Posted by: Hadrian the Seventh at May 25, 2018 03:11 PM (BWL+E)

32 I have mixed thoughts about Iraq. It could have changed the complexion of the Middle East, but now I wonder if we should ever fight another war, as the left will make sure to go quisling in the middle of it.
Posted by: LMD Outer Banker at May 25, 2018 03:09 PM (YuQLm)

The left is all ways sure to go Quisling, aided and abetted by a number of Republicans, because they can't stand an American success.

Posted by: Comrade Hrothgar at May 25, 2018 03:11 PM (n9EOP)

33 Just. Fucking. Die. Already.

Posted by: garrett at May 25, 2018 03:12 PM (di+2x)

34 John McCain is the kind of guy who thinks KC Masterpiece on flank steak is "barbecue."

He probably prefers it to actual barbecue, too.

Posted by: reason at May 25, 2018 03:12 PM (q/kmn)

35 Oh McCain is so beloved by the left! Sure. Let's rerun that bloody fanged pic they tricked him into and then cackled with glee over. They only love him now becuz hes a doddering syncophantic fool.

Posted by: LASue at May 25, 2018 03:12 PM (tChmn)

36 John, you're embarrassing all of us.

Posted by: Abe Vigoda at May 25, 2018 03:12 PM (CPfoe)

37 13
I DO NOT regret my involvement in the SL scandal - John McCain

Posted by: Under Fire at May 25, 2018 03:12 PM (r9UYA)

38 Get on the cart. You're not fooling anyone.

Posted by: garrett at May 25, 2018 03:13 PM (di+2x)

39 I care little for hindsight, and I care even less for hindsight from him.

Posted by: Citizen Cake at May 25, 2018 03:13 PM (ppaKI)

40 We look backwards from a much different world. Fracking was not yet redefining the global oil market.

It was always going to be a long-shot, but at that time, the option to ignore that corner of the world wasn't as easy.

Posted by: 2009Refugee at May 25, 2018 03:13 PM (2xR5z)

41 I'd debate that. Nation building is not necessarily a bad exercise - see Japan, South Korea, west Germany.

The problem is actual nation building takes DECADES of sustained effort.

What is a bad exercise is subjecting it to the whim of a Democrat idiot who wants to fulfill his campaign promise to stupid people and pull out whenever he feels like it.

Posted by: DudeAbides at May 25, 2018 03:13 PM (gEPDv)

42 I think Palin would have been good if she had kept her head down and concentrated on governatin'. she flew too high too fast.

Posted by: Boulder t'hobo at May 25, 2018 03:13 PM (gMim2)

43 Yeah...I'm guilty of being an Iraq War supporter.

Now?

Nuke 'em. No more American blood spilled for ungrateful bastards.

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at May 25, 2018 03:13 PM (wYseH)

44 I got VD from the gooks. They loved me long time with bad hoo-haws. - John McCain

Posted by: Dr Spank at May 25, 2018 03:13 PM (nKbPK)

45 18 I believe we'll eventually find out that McCain and the Bush's are deeply involved in this Trump coup. Up to their eyeballs in it.

Posted by: Under Fire at May 25, 2018 03:09 PM (r9UYA)

I would agree but, if true, the media would have completely outed them by now - if no other reason than to take the heat off Hilary. And think of the blaring headlines they could use to distract the LIVs.

Posted by: kathysaysso at May 25, 2018 03:13 PM (vkS2Z)

46 Get on the cart. You're not fooling anyone.
Posted by: garrett at May 25, 2018 03:13 PM (di+2x)

Heh. He's just being a big baby.

Posted by: Cicero (@cicero) at May 25, 2018 03:13 PM (CPfoe)

47
They only love him now becuz hes a doddering syncophantic fool who hates Trump.

Fixed.

Posted by: Hadrian the Seventh at May 25, 2018 03:13 PM (BWL+E)

48 It is sad that we won't have McCain's leadership guiding our Foreign Policy. We might actually start winning.

Posted by: Gumby at May 25, 2018 03:14 PM (2LelM)

49 I said, IT'S YOUR MOVE, ASSHOLE!!!!

Posted by: Death Playing Chess at May 25, 2018 03:14 PM (CPfoe)

50 So many good men gave their lives and health in the Middle East, yet the protected class has no concern, all in a days graft on their part.

Posted by: LMD Outer Banker at May 25, 2018 03:14 PM (YuQLm)

51 Bring out your dead.

Posted by: Gumby at May 25, 2018 03:14 PM (2LelM)

52 13
I DO NOT regret having butt sex with Nicole Wallace. - John McCain

Posted by: Under Fire at May 25, 2018 03:15 PM (r9UYA)

53 One thing I seem to remember is that George Will (yes that George Will) said something like "Anyone that expects a working Jeffersonian Democracy to arise in the Middle East is smoking some reallllly good sh!t!"

Posted by: Comrade Hrothgar at May 25, 2018 03:15 PM (n9EOP)

54 For God's sake, somebody please hit him with a stick.

Posted by: Cicero (@cicero) at May 25, 2018 03:15 PM (CPfoe)

55 No telling what Iraq would be like now if Obama hadn't pulled out before we were ready.

Posted by: Comey's ugly wife at May 25, 2018 03:15 PM (XT6Vl)

56 I think I'll go for a walk!

Posted by: John McCain's tumor at May 25, 2018 03:15 PM (1tl0t)

57 as for the Iraq War, I was a cheerleader too. because I trusted McCain, for whom I'd voted in the 2000 primary.

I regret that error. of trusting McCain.

Posted by: Boulder t'hobo at May 25, 2018 03:15 PM (gMim2)

58 Bush II ran on not nation building so the first thing he did in Iraq was nation building. I was against going into Iraq because I knew as soon as the Democrats got in office they would surrender and pull out. And Obama did just that.

Posted by: Vic We Have No Party at May 25, 2018 03:16 PM (mpXpK)

59 Posted by: bjstuggzzz at May 25, 2018 03:11 PM (e44Qj)

Yep! Yep! Yep! I mean it's not as if she had any experience being an executive in public office or anything-like a Governor or something. Obviously Obama was more qualified to be President than Palin who spent her whole career being a sports writer/journalist. /sarc

Posted by: FenelonSpoke at May 25, 2018 03:16 PM (vw6r3)

60 >>>One thing I seem to remember is that George Will (yes that George Will) said something like "Anyone that expects a working Jeffersonian Democracy to arise in the Middle East is smoking some reallllly good sh!t!"

I always pegged George as more of a glue-sniffer.

Posted by: Citizen Cake at May 25, 2018 03:16 PM (ppaKI)

61 Can't Buddha Kristol just eat John McCain and be don't with it?

Posted by: Minnfidel at May 25, 2018 03:16 PM (3c1uO)

62 I cling on to life, day after day, with glioblastoma that would have killed most men my age months ago, because I fear the day when I pay my end of the bargain.

Once again, I'm trying to welch.

Posted by: John McCain at May 25, 2018 03:17 PM (AzW6q)

63 Nation building can work with civilized people. Muslim peeps, not so much.

Posted by: Ruthless at May 25, 2018 03:17 PM (md3fh)

64 Invading Iraq wasn't a mistake. We killed a lot of bad people.

The mistake was in the lax rules of engagement and the gentle approach to the war. We should have utterly destroyed Iraq and wiped out all but the mildest versions of Islam.

Without destroying radical Islam and enforcing its destruction, the war was doomed to fail

Posted by: Michael the Texan at May 25, 2018 03:17 PM (nvMvs)

65 I set a air craft carrier on fire for 6 dollars. - John McCain

Posted by: Dr Spank at May 25, 2018 03:17 PM (nKbPK)

66 War should be simple. Go flat out, as hard as you can until the other side surrenders unconditionally. Then you pack up your shit and come home. Last man out tells them, "Don't make me come back."

Nation building worked, somewhat, after WW2 because we no shit won. No playing for a tie. No concerns about collateral damage. Dresden, Tokyo, Hiroshima, Nagasake - you do that shit and you can consider a bit of nation building. You want to drop a couple dozen smart bombs? Then you're done as soon as the last one drops from the racks.

Posted by: Laughing in Texas at May 25, 2018 03:17 PM (xQfPr)

67 51
Bring out your dead.

Posted by: Gumby at May 25, 2018 03:14 PM (2LelM)

Soon. Very Soon.

Posted by: The Tumor at May 25, 2018 03:17 PM (jxbfJ)

68
McCain made up for his mistake on Iraq by joining a plot to rig the U.S. presidential election

Posted by: Flawless Male Logic at May 25, 2018 03:17 PM (10vO4)

69 The truth is it wasn't a mistake until Obama willfully sabotaged it by not negotiating in good faith for the planned permanent military base.

Posted by: Alleninhawaii at May 25, 2018 03:17 PM (euJpb)

70 I knew Saddam had to go. I did not have any concept of what was going to replace him. That was somebody else's job.

Posted by: Burger Chef at May 25, 2018 03:17 PM (RuIsu)

71 McStain never met a warmonger he didn't want to to adopt. I predict US wars will drop dramatically once he finally finally takes his dirt nap.

Posted by: McCain the Senate's biggest asshole at May 25, 2018 03:18 PM (BKav4)

72 Can't Buddha Kristol just eat John McCain and be don't with it?
Posted by: Minnfidel at May 25, 2018 03:16 PM (3c1uO)
---
Wouldn't be the first time...

Posted by: Bill "Oral B" Kristol at May 25, 2018 03:18 PM (AzW6q)

73 That article in sidebar, about Trump having "it" - don't think it's a troll at all, there's always been some people who have "it", while most don't - the guy who walks into a room, any room in the country, and without him even saying anything all the guys want to be him, and all the girls want to be with him.

Ronald Reagan was that kind of guy. There's been a few in Hollywood - John Wayne definitely had "it", and by all accounts I've heard so did James Garner. Frank Sinatra definitely had "it".

You know who never even got close to having "it"? Obama, that's who. Or John Kerry, or Chuck Schumer, or Adam Schiff - weaselly little homunculous men, all.

It's not just men, although it's harder to identify women since they're so often judged by beauty alone. But for those who weren't just beautiful, but whose very presence could stun an entire room full of people - I'd start with women like Sophia Lauren, and Raquel Welch.

I can believe completely that men like Bill Kristol and Podheritz are insanely jealous of Trump on this count alone. So is McCain. Pathetic turds, and wannabe half men, all of them.

Posted by: Tom Servo at May 25, 2018 03:18 PM (k1TUh)

74 I always pegged George as more of a glue-sniffer.
-----------------------
Guys that wear long sleeve button down shirts with Bermuda shorts are definitely doing some weird shit.

Posted by: Gumby at May 25, 2018 03:18 PM (2LelM)

75 Nation building requires a willingness to trample on the values of the American Republic in those occupied countries. Techniques like divide and conquer via using splits in religion or ethnicity, using military courts, spies, and informers, are all an anathema to a democratic republic.

That is why Speaker Thomas Reed opposed the Spanish American War is that he feared the values of empire would supersede those of a republic.

We did so in Japan and Germany successfully because the American public suffered vast losses of lives and limbs and the Allies eliminated many of those of the male population in the occupied zones who could resist. Thus, MacArthur became a shogun in Japan with little interference.

The situation in Germany was more complicated but basically starving and freezing Germans had little option than to capitulate to the four Allied occupying countries. The Allies used Germans to do much of the dirty work in the occupation along with the De-Nazification program. Catch I Was A Male War Bride movie that was shot in post-war Germany for some indications of what it was like along with the movie A Foreign Affair.

Posted by: whig at May 25, 2018 03:18 PM (QUDAE)

76 Franco that you? Still not dead, damn.

Posted by: fat lady already at May 25, 2018 03:18 PM (WX+x0)

77 I always pegged George as more of a glue-sniffer.
Posted by: Citizen Cake at May 25, 2018 03:16 PM

You misspelled cock.

Posted by: Minnfidel at May 25, 2018 03:18 PM (3c1uO)

78 John McCain is the kind of guy who thinks KC Masterpiece on flank steak is "barbecue."

--------------------------------------------------------

As if anything from KC can be considered BBQ.

Posted by: Laughing in Texas at May 25, 2018 03:19 PM (xQfPr)

79 It could have changed the complexion of the Middle East, but now I wonder if we should ever fight another war, as the left will make sure to go quisling in the middle of it.

This is the real issue. The war, and the nation-building, had been won. If we'd treated it like Germany, or South Korea, or Japan, it would almost certainly still be won. The Iranian mess would be completely different now.

But that requires Democrats who believe in American values.

Posted by: Stephen Price Blair at May 25, 2018 03:19 PM (2lndx)

80 64 Invading Iraq wasn't a mistake. We killed a lot of bad people.

The mistake was in the lax rules of engagement and the gentle approach to the war. We should have utterly destroyed Iraq and wiped out all but the mildest versions of Islam.

Without destroying radical Islam and enforcing its destruction, the war was doomed to fail

Posted by: Michael the Texan at May 25, 2018 03:17 PM (nvMvs)

This. It was such a polite occupation - almost like we turned into pansy Canadians!

Posted by: kathysaysso at May 25, 2018 03:19 PM (vkS2Z)

81
68
McCain made up for his mistake on Iraq by joining a plot to rig the U.S. presidential election
--------------------
Yes he did. The question is did he know he was being played or is he that stupid?

Posted by: Gumby at May 25, 2018 03:19 PM (2LelM)

82 Goooooooo TUMOR!

Posted by: Bonecrusher at May 25, 2018 03:20 PM (r+mGZ)

83 It is fine to say the Iraq War was a mistake. But one also has to realize that it was run poorly as well. Someone loses every war, but that does not always mean the war was a mistake. Sure war sucks, but lessons need to be learned. Of course learn whether going to war is the right call, but you better also learn how to win once you do go.

Posted by: Quint at May 25, 2018 03:20 PM (n13/j)

84 "I think Palin would have been good if she had kept her head down and concentrated on governatin'. she flew too high too fast.
Posted by: Boulder t'hobo"

I think had she stayed as Gov and won re-election in 2010, she would have been a worthy challenger to Barry in 2012. And I understand her reasons for stepping down, but it would have been interesting.

Posted by: Benji Carver at May 25, 2018 03:20 PM (OD2ni)

85 >>>Nation building worked, somewhat, after WW2 because we no shit won.

Plus the fact that the Japanese and Germans already had an orderly society in place. Iraq was a dysfunctional madhouse long before we ever set foot there.

Posted by: Citizen Cake at May 25, 2018 03:20 PM (ppaKI)

86 imbecilic cock sucking glue sniffer. There you go mates. Always like to help. Stay out da bushes.

Posted by: fat lady already at May 25, 2018 03:20 PM (WX+x0)

87 Did he mention how he mistakenly ran in the wrong party all these years?

Posted by: Vashta Nerada at May 25, 2018 03:20 PM (7ZVPa)

88 What is a bad exercise is subjecting it to the whim of a Democrat idiot who wants to fulfill his campaign promise to stupid people and pull out whenever he feels like it.
Posted by: DudeAbides at May 25, 2018 03:13 PM (gEPDv)

Only neocons would strategize something like an "Authorization For The Use Of Military Force" to ensure they will have an out when needed. We should NEVER commit troops without a formal Declaration Of War. Make the slimy Congressional bastards commit in writing one way or another, and accept nothing less than Total Surrender as a result!

Turn the aftermath over to a senior NCO corps that get to keep 10% of the profits made in turning the country around.

Posted by: Comrade Hrothgar at May 25, 2018 03:21 PM (n9EOP)

89 As if anything from KC can be considered BBQ.

Posted by: Laughing in Texas at May 25, 2018 03:19 PM (xQfPr)

*offers the secret Texan handshake*

Weatherford.

Posted by: reason at May 25, 2018 03:21 PM (q/kmn)

90 Killing terrorists is never bad. Iraq sucked them right to it.

Iraq did not know it got its ass kicked because of US leadership.

Vote for me for Grand PuBah!!!!

Posted by: nip at May 25, 2018 03:21 PM (ECLaL)

91 McCain did his best nation building with Hillary in Libya.

Posted by: Burnt Toast at May 25, 2018 03:21 PM (2rRKu)

92 I think they're jealous of Trump, but I would probably be one of the women who-in my younger days-wouldn't have been bowled over by Trump. He certainly wasn't a bad looking guy when he was younger, had a lot of money and is smart. There are things, however, that annoy me about Trump and would have annoyed me in my younger, prettier days-not the least of which was that he cheated on his wives. I'd probably like him much better in his 60's and now than in his 20's 30's and 40's

Posted by: FenelonSpoke at May 25, 2018 03:21 PM (vw6r3)

93 If you are gonna build a nation, make sure the foundation is solid. That starts with clearing the landscape.
Posted by: Diogenes

Yep. Said it before; it required a colonization of the country with complete command and control in the hands of select NCOs.

The US populace wasn't and isn't interested in such projects. They gave up on the half-assed, litigated, soft-touch occupation in less than 5years. Anyone who expected them to be interested in a multi-decade occupation is lying to themselves.

Posted by: weft cut-loop at May 25, 2018 03:21 PM (LNPd9)

94 will the Never-Admit-Error Neocon NeverTrumpers admit it?

depends on how much they are financially hurting, or less cocktail hour or party invites

or Cruise invites

Posted by: artisanal 'ette at May 25, 2018 03:21 PM (fceHP)

95 Dude's a Klingon.

Posted by: Uranus at May 25, 2018 03:22 PM (+lOpA)

96
Yes he did. The question is did he know he was being played or is he that stupid?

Posted by: Gumby at May 25, 2018 03:19 PM (2LelM)

I was played was his excuse on the savings and loan scandal.He doesn't get to use it twice

Posted by: Flawless Male Logic at May 25, 2018 03:22 PM (10vO4)

97 Of course learn whether going to war is the right call, but you better also learn how to win once you do go.
Posted by: Quint at May 25, 2018 03:20 PM (n13/j)

And you better have the Nation ready to support winning and the gradual transitioning to peacetime!

Posted by: Comrade Hrothgar at May 25, 2018 03:22 PM (n9EOP)

98 I'll give you a perspective having lost friends and brothers in Iraq, and being a September 11th survivor.

Mistake? Hell no, and I'll be the first to question McCain's motives. The man is dying and thinking about his legacy. So are the people around him. We call that disingenuous- so fuck him.

It also demeans people who fought and died there, turning them into dupes. Never. You want to say people fought for the men next to them- fine. But we were there for a purpose, and while that purpose has shifted over the years, the net effect has been a much different Middle East with more gains to be made in the future.

You want to talk about nation building in the traditional sense. I am with you. You want to talk about how Obama's policies turned it into a morass, ultimately destroyed many of the gains we made and delayed the drawdown to lower levels I'll have that conversation also. You want to tell me the actions in Iraq were meaningless, didn't result in tangible security gains for our country, didn't shift the status quo, didn't ultimately reduce terrorism or threat to the homeland? Go hang yourself.

Worth the cost? Never. It never is. Not any war, yet we will always have them because it is human nature.

Coming up on Memorial Day think about this, especially those of us who called for the war, knowing the costs. How can you repay those men for that sacrifice? How can you ever live a good enough life to earn what they paid for?

It's not with this type of phony, self-righteous, second guessing, personal guilt letting.

Posted by: Marcus T at May 25, 2018 03:23 PM (VpIIl)

99 I'm beginning to sense a theme here today.

Posted by: dananjcon at May 25, 2018 03:23 PM (xqfqx)

100 McCain was who the Establishment wanted.

Posted by: Mr. Peebles at May 25, 2018 03:23 PM (oVJmc)

101 It should prove that we should never again try to nation build. The first mistake was Afghanistan. We should have went in enmasse killed a shit load of bad guys and left. And none of the ROE that were used. Bad guys in a building? Fuck it, level it.

Iraq I had a small amount of hope for, up until the 50's they were fairly westernized and they weren't run by religious fanatics. The problem is that the whole tribal shit will never allow it to happen.

Posted by: Minnfidel at May 25, 2018 03:23 PM (3c1uO)

102 McCain will go to his grave knowing Trump won and he did not.
Suck on that while you gasp your last breath asshole.

Posted by: Under Fire at May 25, 2018 03:23 PM (r9UYA)

103 I said the war was a mistake before we ever went in. Especially because it diverted men, equipment, and attention from Afghanistan.

Posted by: Jaqen H'ghar at May 25, 2018 03:23 PM (5fSr7)

104
Non-trolling question: what was the alternative? Would sanctions and no-fly zones have persisted? I was told by my betters that 500,000 Iraqi children were dying every day because of the sanctions. The Europeans, of course, would cheat their own grandmothers for a bribe or kickback.

Posted by: Hadrian the Seventh at May 25, 2018 03:24 PM (BWL+E)

105 53 One thing I seem to remember is that George Will (yes that George Will) said something like "Anyone that expects a working Jeffersonian Democracy to arise in the Middle East is smoking some reallllly good sh!t!"
Posted by: Comrade Hrothgar at May 25, 2018 03:15 PM (n9EOP)

Blind Skvirrel.

Posted by: buzzion at May 25, 2018 03:24 PM (lKs2v)

106 I recall the wildly inflated claims of the number of Iraqis killed. If we had offed that number and the right ones, thing would have gone far better afterward. Such is the brutality of war.

Posted by: epobirs at May 25, 2018 03:24 PM (AJKgl)

107 this sounds like a deathbed confession. Kind of makes me hopeful.
ok, nasty thing to say.

Posted by: mallfly the Peach of Hoboken at May 25, 2018 03:24 PM (KxbBq)

108 Posted by: Marcus T at May 25, 2018 03:23 PM

Well said!

Posted by: Minnfidel at May 25, 2018 03:24 PM (3c1uO)

109 The Iraq and Afghanistan wars were a mistake only in that there was not a 100% commitment to win. Politicians (both parties - OK the uniparty) were too worried about the optics of the destruction. ROE were drafted handicapping our military, and then they were tightened, and tightened again.If a military conflict is needed, the U.S. President (and whatever/if any notice or permission needed from Congress) should turn to the Joint Chiefs, Sec Def and simply say two things:1) Make this problem go away and
2) Make it quick, decisive, a victory.

Posted by: Our Country is Screwed at May 25, 2018 03:24 PM (jxbfJ)

110 Reminds me of the I'm not dead yet scene from Monty Python and the Holy Trail.

Posted by: Northernlurker lighter less filing at May 25, 2018 03:25 PM (aCNZ6)

111 Guaran-damn-tee you this POS got boo coo "donations" to the "John McCain Foundation and Slush Fund" from all sorts of unsavory middle eastern types.
Several pics of him colluding with Syrian "rebels" floating about on the internet.
He's just as scared of hanging as HRC.

Posted by: random ~~lurker~~ commenter at May 25, 2018 03:25 PM (57plp)

112 Kind of makes me hopeful.
ok, nasty thing to say.
Posted by: mallfly the Peach of Hoboken at May 25, 2018 03:24 PM (KxbBq)
----
Whatever. May the crone carry him speedily into the maw of the ninth ring.

Posted by: Yudhishthira's Dice at May 25, 2018 03:26 PM (AzW6q)

113 Ronald Reagan was that kind of guy. There's been a few in Hollywood - John Wayne definitely had "it", and by all accounts I've heard so did James Garner. Frank Sinatra definitely had "it".

Garner definitely did, and he knew it. Watching him in anything you just immediately like him.

That's why The Rockford Files is so funny because he's always getting played, sandbagged, whatever. It's the exact opposite of what someone like that would get from other people.

Posted by: Dack Thrombosis at May 25, 2018 03:26 PM (4ErVI)

114 Can't wait for the heroic story how he was inspired by Grant to keep writing as he was slowly dying.

This will help cement his military reputation.

Posted by: Headless Body of Agnew at May 25, 2018 03:26 PM (e1mEI)

115 Without destroying radical Islam and enforcing its destruction, the war was doomed to fail

Posted by: Michael the Texan at May 25, 2018 03:17 PM (nvMvs)

This. It was such a polite occupation - almost like we turned into pansy Canadians!
Posted by: kathysaysso at May 25, 2018 03:19 PM (vkS2Z)

American foreign policy has been wonked out for a generation or two.

America's founding documents are all about the People creating the government they want... that they deserve.

How then can we say a foreign countries CITIZENS are not complicit in their governments actions?

This whole modern 'we hate your government but love your people' crap is... just that... crap.

We need to hold the Citizens of a Country responsible for the actions of their Government... until THEY change said Government.

Every War post WW2... where we did NOT hold the Citizens of said country responsible... were we did NOT PUNISH the shit out of said citizens... has pretty much been a waste.

Posted by: Don Q.... at May 25, 2018 03:26 PM (NgKpN)

116 I guess all we had to go by at the time was the results of Japan, Germany (west), and to some extent Korea (south). But those countries were beat into submission by us.

Iraq/Afghanistan...not so much. Plus Muzzies...

Posted by: Tami at May 25, 2018 03:26 PM (Enq6K)

117 A huge amount of the reason for the failure was due to the war from within, meaning the political exploitation against the war from the left. The media willingly went along with it, making it increasingly difficult to even try to do what needed to be done to be successful. And of course, 0bama and the rest of the Democrats then went forth to actually make the war as much of a failure as possible. But they don't take any blame. This is just as much failure theater as anything the NeverTrumpers and cucks ever do. Oh woah is us, we conservatives made such a terrible mistake, Teddy Kennedy and John Kerry and all the liberals were so right that America opened up torture chambers and we are no better than Saddam Hussein...etc., etc. See how easy it is to join the left?

Posted by: Matt at May 25, 2018 03:26 PM (hY3+6)

118 Never bought in, thought it was a bad idea from the start, totally understand that others disagreed, and I respected their decision then and now.

Hope that doesn't sound like gloating or anything, it isn't, just trying to acknowledge the situation was complex, and there were honest disagreements about the best course.

Posted by: Eduardo at May 25, 2018 03:27 PM (cOANc)

119 I think they're jealous of Trump, but I would
probably be one of the women who-in my younger days-wouldn't have been
bowled over by Trump. He certainly wasn't a bad looking guy when he was
younger, had a lot of money and is smart. There are things, however,
that annoy me about Trump and would have annoyed me in my younger,
prettier days-not the least of which was that he cheated on his wives.
I'd probably like him much better in his 60's and now than in his 20's
30's and 40's

Posted by: FenelonSpoke at May 25, 2018 03:21 PM (vw6r3)

Things about Trump annoy me too. I could tell him lots of things he could change to suit me better. His opponents wanted to further disfigure the republic and weaken Constitutional freedoms. No tough decision there.

Posted by: Quint at May 25, 2018 03:27 PM (n13/j)

120 I only supported the Iraq war to the extant it allowed us to put troops and air power on three sides of Iran. And, after we succeeded in short order, the Iranian people rose in rebellion against their tyrants and begged for our help. They asked us, the longtime friendly democracy builder sitting there surrounding an ill equipped military and its terrorist allies. Easy win for civilization and revenge for Beirut and Tehran embassy. So sweet.

But, Obama.

Posted by: Huck Follywood, coffee drinker at May 25, 2018 03:27 PM (NVmJr)

121 There are no lefty voices out there that anyone apolitical really gives a fuck about anymore.

Celebrities being leftards isn't news anymore, plus #metoo splashed a lot of cold water and other stuff (ick) on Hollywood, so people have simply tuned it all out. The only celebrity news politically is when they say something truly Reich Wing like they "actually kind of like America".

Influence and persuasion matters. That's why the Obamas have a channel now. But they are slowly but surely being erased from memory.

And right now all their side has is Pontius Comey, who has gone whisper quiet, the Hag who keeps repeating herself like Rain Man ("should have won the election, should have won the election, you're all sexist, gotta watch Wapner"), and Weekend at McCain's who gets held up like Punxsutawney Phil to make a statement about his shadow every few days.

Posted by: Mega at May 25, 2018 03:27 PM (rv0Fo)

122 83 It is fine to say the Iraq War was a mistake. But one also has to realize that it was run poorly as well. Someone loses every war, but that does not always mean the war was a mistake. Sure war sucks, but lessons need to be learned. Of course learn whether going to war is the right call, but you better also learn how to win once you do go.
Posted by: Quint at May 25, 2018 03:20 PM (n13/j)

---

Kinda hard to defend the perimeter when the main gate is unsecured.

When you have a media openly hostile to anything military, you get Jerry Rivera drawing troop movements in the sand.

First lesson to be learned: No embeds from the MSM.

Posted by: SMH - Get right or get left at May 25, 2018 03:28 PM (7qyhD)

123 ow, I think I have a boil on my ass.

oh wait, it's just a reminder that McCain hasn't stfu yet

Posted by: Boulder t'hobo at May 25, 2018 03:28 PM (gMim2)

124 OK.

Pizza is in the oven.

Is McCain still alive?

Posted by: garrett at May 25, 2018 03:28 PM (di+2x)

125 We should remember that the Original Sin we made in that region is when Colon Powell got cold feet and we let Saddam stay in power at the end of the 1st Gulf War. If we would have kept going until he resigned and turned himself over (which would have been easy, since the entire Iraqi Army was on the run at the time) none of the later unpleasantness would ever have happened.

Posted by: Tom Servo at May 25, 2018 03:28 PM (k1TUh)

126 "No war is over until the enemy says it's over. We may think it over, we may declare it over, but in fact, the enemy gets a vote."

Posted by: Mattis at May 25, 2018 03:28 PM (q/kmn)

127 Non-trolling question: what was the alternative?
...
Posted by: Hadrian the Seventh at May 25, 2018 03:24 PM (BWL+E)

Make the rubble bounce at least once for starters

*Types
...
Deletes*

Posted by: Comrade Hrothgar at May 25, 2018 03:28 PM (n9EOP)

128
Can't wait for the heroic story how he was inspired by Grant to keep writing as he was slowly dying.

Grant kept writing so his family wouldn't go bankrupt

Posted by: Flawless Male Logic at May 25, 2018 03:28 PM (10vO4)

129 I guess all we had to go by at the time was the results of Japan, Germany (west), and to some extent Korea (south).

We also had South Vietnam, but it was possible to view that as a one-time betrayal due to the circumstances.

Posted by: Stephen Price Blair at May 25, 2018 03:28 PM (2lndx)

130 "Posted by: Minnfidel at May 25, 2018 03:23 PM (3c1uO)
"

Except that's not true about Afghanistan. There are a lot of good people in the country who want to live their lives and be left alone. But they can't because adjoining countries are constantly sending radicals into their midst and stoking tribal differences. If we bombed and left, it would only be a matter of time before we were back there or worse, they would be here. The fanatics need to be wiped out or at least know we are there to stay until they are no longer a threat to us. For that, you need to grab people by the collar and shake them. You can actually make a better case for Afghanistan than Iraq.`

Posted by: Marcus T at May 25, 2018 03:28 PM (VpIIl)

131 he also inspires me, makes me laugh, and surprises as well.

Posted by: Quint at May 25, 2018 03:29 PM (n13/j)

132 Aaaand, I'll BBL.

I hear my name being called.

Posted by: SMH - Get right or get left at May 25, 2018 03:29 PM (7qyhD)

133
There is nothing inherently wrong with the concept of nation building IF AND ONLY IF you do it this way:

1 - No rules of engagement. Ever.
2 - Go in with overwhelming violence and force to wipeout all military and irregular forces.
3 - Minimizing collateral damage is not, repeat, not a priority or even a concern.
4 - Impose the severest form of martial law possible. Take over all political, cultural and religious institutions and de-Islamify everything.
5 - Then and only then can you say "mission accomplished and leave the country,

Since this ain't ever gonna happen, I see no problems.

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at May 25, 2018 03:29 PM (VM6ev)

134 *eyes rolling so hard they look like a pinball machine*

I give up. The left won. Congratulations for slurping up every one of their treacherous talking points.

Posted by: Christopher R Taylor at May 25, 2018 03:29 PM (39g3+)

135 Sure, everything is a mistake if you give the Left a say in it. I'm not impressed.

Posted by: t-bird at May 25, 2018 03:30 PM (7ThJ3)

136 I hear my name being called.
Posted by: SMH - Get right or get left at May 25, 2018 03:29 PM (7qyhD)
---
#MeToo

Posted by: John McCain at May 25, 2018 03:30 PM (AzW6q)

137 5 Portland cop cars have surrounded the run down vehicle. They are pulling someone out of the car. Older man with white hair.

Posted by: Under Fire at May 25, 2018 03:30 PM (r9UYA)

138 Ronald Reagan was that kind of guy. There's been a few in Hollywood - John Wayne definitely had "it", and by all accounts I've heard so did James Garner. Frank Sinatra definitely had "it".

You know who never even got close to having "it"? Obama, that's who. Or John Kerry, or Chuck Schumer, or Adam Schiff - weaselly little homunculous men, all.

It's not just men, although it's harder to identify women since they're so often judged by beauty alone. But for those who weren't just beautiful, but whose very presence could stun an entire room full of people - I'd start with women like Sophia Lauren, and Raquel Welch.

Posted by: Tom Servo at May 25, 2018 03:18 PM (k1TUh)

I think Bill Clinton had it too.

Posted by: LASue at May 25, 2018 03:31 PM (tChmn)

139 Every War post WW2... where we did NOT hold the Citizens of said country responsible... were we did NOT PUNISH the shit out of said citizens... has pretty much been a waste.

Posted by: Don Q.... at May 25, 2018 03:26 PM (NgKpN)

The die was cast in Korea I think. Definitely by Vietnam. Fighting to just hold territory is usually a bad idea. Stalemates are bad. It just turns into a meat grinder and lots of body bags.

I think Grenada was the exception. We went in, tossed out the Marxists and the Cubans, and left.

I had a work project yesterday that required me to do some research on Afghanistan. Apparently the Taliban is willing to engage in peace talks, but not with the Afghan government. They want to deal directly with the US since they see the regime there as puppets.

Also, they've taken back nearly all of their territory they lost. So there's another slow motion loss unfolding.

Posted by: Dack Thrombosis at May 25, 2018 03:31 PM (4ErVI)

140 Grant kept writing so his family wouldn't go bankrupt
==========

Grant should have made a Netflix deal or started a fake charity.

Posted by: Huck Follywood, coffee drinker at May 25, 2018 03:31 PM (NVmJr)

141 Joyce is dead, and yet this pathetic quisling still lives.

Posted by: Teresa in Fort Worth, TX at May 25, 2018 03:31 PM (uDcBt)

142 As I mentioned earlier today, I am glad to spend my tax dollars to get him the first six feet toward his destination.

Posted by: Vashta Nerada at May 25, 2018 03:31 PM (7ZVPa)

143 re 120: I would like to believe that W Bush wanted to see and support a revolution in Iran, but I think he feared the Dems would have turned it into a Constitutional Crisis. Shoulda done it anyway.

Posted by: mallfly the Peach of Hoboken at May 25, 2018 03:32 PM (KxbBq)

144
Whatever, Juan. Tell it to your Maker when your time comes.

Posted by: Krebs v Carnot: Epic Battle of the Cycling Stars (TM) at May 25, 2018 03:32 PM (NoLse)

145 The problem with Iraq was the same problem with Afghanistan, which was the same problem with Vietnam.

We let them have and use Sanctuary Countries.

The jihadis came in through Syria, the Taliban hide out in Pakistan in the Winter, and the North Vietnamese Army had Laos and Cambodia.

Posted by: rd at May 25, 2018 03:32 PM (4dz1m)

146 The problem was in stopping in Iraq and not going Patton-style all the way to Tehran.

Posted by: Mr. Peebles at May 25, 2018 03:32 PM (oVJmc)

147 You know who never even got close to having "it"? Obama, that's who.

If I had a father, he'd look like Barack Obama.

Posted by: David "Camera" Hogg at May 25, 2018 03:32 PM (7ThJ3)

148 The main reason not to go to extended war in the modern age is that Democrats will come in and sabotage it the first chance they can. And our treasonous media will undermine it even sooner.

Posted by: Mega at May 25, 2018 03:32 PM (rv0Fo)

149 85 >>>Nation building worked, somewhat, after WW2 because we no shit won.

Plus the fact that the Japanese and Germans already had an orderly society in place. Iraq was a dysfunctional madhouse long before we ever set foot there.
Posted by: Citizen Cake at May 25, 2018 03:20 PM (ppaKI)

No, it worked because we outlawed the two major Philosophies or our Enemies... Shintoism, and Nazism...

And replaced them with an American style Bill of Rights.

We did just the opposite in Iraq. We did not outlaw Islam, and in fact allowed them to enshrine Sharia Law into their Constitution.

Posted by: Don Q.... at May 25, 2018 03:32 PM (NgKpN)

150 140 Grant kept writing so his family wouldn't go bankrupt
==========

Grant should have made a Netflix deal or started a fake charity.
Posted by: Huck Follywood, coffee drinker at May 25, 2018 03:31 PM (NVmJr)

I think he still gets residuals from "Lou Grant," no?

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at May 25, 2018 03:32 PM (VM6ev)

151 So if we go to war and the battle plan includes total destruction of the enemies' capital in the first 24 hrs then count me in.

Posted by: rod of correction at May 25, 2018 03:32 PM (WX+x0)

152 And whatever the circumstances, I give McCain credit for his Vietnam service, even though that's not popular with a large section of people at the VFW.

Everything after that is a stain on our country, and he's turned into a bitter, old, self absorbed douchebag.

Posted by: Marcus T at May 25, 2018 03:33 PM (VpIIl)

153 Posted by: Quint at May 25, 2018 03:27 PM (n13/j)

I was speaking personally as in a dating prospect-not as in voting for him. No question; I can't stand Hillary. It's o.k. Trump wouldn't have wanted to date me anyway. However, I write him nice notes to him at the WH since he's become President, and if he wants to send some cash to get my teen boy a used car, I wouldn't object. He can afford it better than we can. ;^)

Posted by: FenelonSpoke at May 25, 2018 03:33 PM (vw6r3)

154
McLame's dying is going to last longer than some bands' farewell tours

Posted by: TheQuietMan at May 25, 2018 03:33 PM (SiINZ)

155 OK.

Pizza is in the oven.

Is McCain still alive?
Posted by: garrett at May 25, 2018 03:28 PM (di+2x)

Just cooking a pizza isn't enough to do the trick. McCain is tough.

Posted by: Cicero (@cicero) at May 25, 2018 03:33 PM (CPfoe)

156 125 We should remember that the Original Sin we made in that region is when Colon Powell got cold feet and we let Saddam stay in power at the end of the 1st Gulf War. If we would have kept going until he resigned and turned himself over (which would have been easy, since the entire Iraqi Army was on the run at the time) none of the later unpleasantness would ever have happened.

Posted by: Tom Servo at May 25, 2018 03:28 PM

Just hours after the cease fire was implemented, I was standing on "the ramp" of the VII Corps HQs and chatting with a couple of colleagues and smoking cigars. I told them then, we will have to come back and finish this. Yes, we'd achieved our mission and freed Kuwait, but there was unfinished business.

Posted by: Diogenes at May 25, 2018 03:34 PM (neVEe)

157 154
McLame's dying is going to last longer than some bands' farewell tours
Posted by: TheQuietMan at May 25, 2018 03:33 PM (SiINZ)

"Tell me about it!"

- - Hyman Roth

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at May 25, 2018 03:34 PM (VM6ev)

158 Gather ye kickbacks while ye may,
Old Time is still a-flying;
And this same tumor that grows today
Tomorrow will be dying.

Posted by: Zombie Robert Herrick at May 25, 2018 03:34 PM (AzW6q)

159 McLame's dying is going to last longer than some bands' farewell tours.

Deadpool 2.

Posted by: Stephen Price Blair at May 25, 2018 03:34 PM (2lndx)

160 If they'd turn off the AC he'd go a lot quicker. #stoprefrigeratingjohnmccain!

Posted by: Gumby at May 25, 2018 03:34 PM (2LelM)

161
McLame's dying is going to last longer than some bands' farewell tours

Posted by: TheQuietMan at May 25, 2018 03:33 PM (SiINZ)

Or the Bret Farve farewell tour

Posted by: Flawless Male Logic at May 25, 2018 03:34 PM (10vO4)

162 I dont believe the Iraq war can be labeled a mistake yet. There is some history to play out yet.

Posted by: maddogg at May 25, 2018 03:35 PM (Ade6D)

163 Ronald Reagan was that kind of guy. There's been a few in Hollywood - John Wayne definitely had "it", and by all accounts I've heard so did James Garner. Frank Sinatra definitely had "it".

You know who never even got close to having "it"? Obama, that's who. Or John Kerry, or Chuck Schumer, or Adam Schiff - weaselly little homunculous men, all.

It's not just men, although it's harder to identify women since they're so often judged by beauty alone. But for those who weren't just beautiful, but whose very presence could stun an entire room full of people - I'd start with women like Sophia Lauren, and Raquel Welch.

Posted by: Tom Servo at May 25, 2018 03:18 PM (k1TUh)

I think Bill Clinton had it too.
Posted by: LASue

Bill had it when he was talking. (Smooth charmer)

The others had it simply by entering a room.

Posted by: rickb223 at May 25, 2018 03:35 PM (3oX+R)

164 18
I believe we'll eventually find out that McCain and the Bush's are
deeply involved in this Trump coup. Up to their eyeballs in it.

Posted by: Under Fire at May 25, 2018 03:09 PM (r9UYA)

At least Bush should speak out against the deep state if he cares about the nation and the sacrifice of honest people.

Posted by: muckrack at May 25, 2018 03:35 PM (U6HrF)

165 "The Arizona Senator's twilight struggle with Donald Trump is so bitter because they're more alike than you think".

I actually avoided reading who wrote this because I wanted to test my libdar first. "Gotta be Huff and Puff Post, or Salon, or maybe even some cuck GOPer. Oh, surprise, surprise, surprise, it's Politico!" McCain and Trump have nothing in common except the usual human condition. 2 eyes, 2 ears, 2 arms, 2 legs, 2 kidneys, 1 tumor....wait, scratch that last one.

Posted by: Anonymous White Male at May 25, 2018 03:35 PM (9BLnV)

166 I think Bill Clinton had it too.
Posted by: LASue at May 25, 2018 03:31 PM (tChmn

Yes, Bill has charisma and from what I understand-when he wasn't assaulting or raping women-he could pay attention to a woman like she's the only one who existed. The charm has been off that rose (and I voted for him) since he had sex with Monica in the oval office.

Posted by: FenelonSpoke at May 25, 2018 03:35 PM (vw6r3)

167 1. We dodged a serious bullet in 2008. Even as bad as Obama was, McCain would have been worse overall.
2. McCain's starfish, a barbed wired, Dave's Insanity Sauced pineapple, some sideways orientation, and an hour of assembly.

Posted by: Jukin the Deplorable and Profoundly Unserious at May 25, 2018 03:35 PM (pw+jk)

168 Posted by: J.J. Sefton at May 25, 2018 03:29 PM (VM6ev)

---

'It Looked Weird and Felt Wrong'

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/07/23/AR2006072300495.html

Yeah, nice thing to read when one is downrange dodging IEDs and SAF.

Especially when you're in that unit, and know the WP are full of shit, as usual.

Sorry, reading that brought back some less than pleasant memories.

Now I'm out.

Posted by: SMH - Get right or get left at May 25, 2018 03:36 PM (7qyhD)

169 I think Bill Clinton had it too."

Bill definitely had some charisma, but he always struck me as more of a "Drinkin' Buddy" type of guy. Even at first glance, I don't think I'd ever trust him, but if you wanted a rowdy night on the town full of sex and drugs and rock and roll, you had a feeling that he would be exactly the kind of guy you'd want to hang out with, and that all the hookers on the street would be old pals of his.

Posted by: Tom Servo at May 25, 2018 03:36 PM (k1TUh)

170 Posted by: Marcus T at May 25, 2018 03:33 PM (VpIIl)

I'll spot McCain one because if the stories are correct he stayed in the Hanoi Hilton when he could have gotten an early release because of his family connections.

However, nothing he did before or since that brings any credit to him!

Posted by: Comrade Hrothgar at May 25, 2018 03:36 PM (n9EOP)

171 muqtada al-sadr was just elected (or whatever) president of Iraq.

Posted by: ace at May 25, 2018 03:36 PM (8rNrN)

172 162
I dont believe the Iraq war can be labeled a mistake yet. There is some history to play out yet.

Posted by: maddogg at May 25, 2018 03:35 PM (Ade6D)

It looks like Trump may pull it back from Iran who Obama gave it to by pulling out.

Posted by: muckrack at May 25, 2018 03:36 PM (U6HrF)

173
At least Bush should speak out against the deep state if he cares about the nation and the sacrifice of honest people.

As an elite, I'm sure he considers the Deep State the Natural Order of Things.

Posted by: Mr. Peebles at May 25, 2018 03:37 PM (oVJmc)

174 remember al-sadr, the guy who was leading the shiite campaign against our soldiers?

Yup, he's in charge now.

Posted by: ace at May 25, 2018 03:37 PM (8rNrN)

175 laughing in texas @66:

PRECISELY.

Posted by: Gooshy at May 25, 2018 03:37 PM (dNQeY)

176 McCain armed the Syrian Free Army on his own advice and consent! McCain knifing McBush over Iraq. Funny if not for the isult paid to our maimed or dead troops.

You will be forgotten and unsung within months of passing. Except for the part where I embark upon heroes journey to piss on your frak'n headstone.

Posted by: 13times at May 25, 2018 03:37 PM (K3B2k)

177 Yeah, not seeing the similarity.

Posted by: eleven at May 25, 2018 03:37 PM (+lOpA)

178 McLame's dying is going to last longer than some bands' farewell tours
Posted by: TheQuietMan at May 25, 2018 03:33 PM (SiINZ)
+++++++
When Churchill (no, I am *not* comparing them) took ill, the British government started planning for his funeral under the name "Operation Hope Not." They had to keep changing the plan over time because, as Mountbatten put it, Churchill "kept living and the pallbearers kept dying."

I hope he doesn't have another 5-10 years of interfering in western civilization, but these things can drag on.

Posted by: Joe Mannix (Not a cop!) at May 25, 2018 03:37 PM (I2dne)

179 I supported the Iraq war because of Iran.
Huck just said anything I could say much better.

Posted by: Ben Had at May 25, 2018 03:37 PM (LH8Hn)

180 Kick me already.

Posted by: The Bucket at May 25, 2018 03:37 PM (HgMAr)

181
The problem is islam. It disallows any progress of human rights, which in turn creates societies and cultures of failure.

I find it interesting that the "reforms" in the KSA are decidedly anti-muslim, meaning not traditionally muslim. It will be an interesting experiment to see if that prince makes headway.

Posted by: Guy Mohawk at May 25, 2018 03:37 PM (r+sAi)

182 Iraq was a mistake, war is for punishing ones enemy and to make them stop and reconsider their options. The military should be used to blow shit up and break things or to secure our interests. Nation building is not blowing shit up and breaking things neither is it securing our interests. Iraq is a tragic failure and I admit I thought it was a good idea. It is a shame that we wasted so much to accomplish so little. A DAMN SHAME.

Posted by: USNtakim prfoundly deplorable! at May 25, 2018 03:37 PM (0OmEj)

183 >>I don't think I'd ever trust him, but if you wanted a rowdy night on the town full of sex and drugs and rock and roll, you had a feeling that he would be exactly the kind of guy you'd want to hang out with,

I thinkFamily Guy nailed Bill Clinton's persona.

"You see that pig? We could eat that pig."

Posted by: garrett at May 25, 2018 03:37 PM (di+2x)

184 29 Palin was obviously a bad pick. She was a sports reporter. You don't pick a sports reporter to be the 2nd in command of the free world. Basic failure of judgment.
Posted by: bjstuggzzz at May 25, 2018 03:11 PM (e44Qj)

--------------

It was as stupid as picking a real estate developer for President.

Just look at how he screwed up everything in the last eighteen months!

/s

Posted by: rd at May 25, 2018 03:38 PM (4dz1m)

185 Regardless of what one thought of the Iraq War, we can all agree Barky lost all the advantages we gained.

His reign is nothing but a tragedy for the world, but especially for Iran and the ME.

Posted by: Huck Follywood, coffee drinker at May 25, 2018 03:38 PM (NVmJr)

186 I always thought Iraq was...optional. We didn't *need* to go there, what with Afghanistan and all. But I also understand the stated and unstated reasons for opting for it.

But once we got in and won it, we should have gotten the fuck out.

Posted by: Hanover Fiste at May 25, 2018 03:38 PM (2kiKp)

187 154
McLame's dying is going to last longer than some bands' farewell tours
Posted by: TheQuietMan at May 25, 2018 03:33 PM (SiINZ)

But not as long as TV coverage of his funeral.

Posted by: The Bucket at May 25, 2018 03:39 PM (HgMAr)

188 The Iraq war wasn't a mistake, but the way we always do war is a mistake. We can't trust the Mandarinate to do anything right. Or at all, which is what we're all finding out with the Derp State bullshit going on right now.

Posted by: Thing From Snowy Mountain at May 25, 2018 03:39 PM (87ijN)

189 >>remember al-sadr, the guy who was leading the shiite campaign against our soldiers?

>Yup, he's in charge now.

Democracy!

Posted by: garrett at May 25, 2018 03:39 PM (di+2x)

190 I think Bill Clinton had it too.
Posted by: LASue

What was that? Herpes? Chlamydia? Tertiary Syphilis?

Posted by: Anonymous White Male at May 25, 2018 03:40 PM (9BLnV)

191 After the first Gulf War, it was almost certain we would have to go back and finish it. The problem was how we finished it.

Posted by: Vashta Nerada at May 25, 2018 03:40 PM (7ZVPa)

192 Palin was obviously a bad pick. She was a sports reporter. You don't pick a sports reporter to be the 2nd in command of the free world

Who was also the governor of the largest state in the union.

Posted by: rickb223 at May 25, 2018 03:40 PM (3oX+R)

193 Iraq/Afghanistan War you say? I know a lot of guys who served there, everything from a sniper to a Blackhawk pilot to a Tech ( info) Specialist, to a Doctor, to an MP.... one thing they all have in common is the ROEs sucked....

Posted by: kraken at May 25, 2018 03:40 PM (zSVEm)

194
Palin was obviously a bad pick. She was a sports reporter. You don't pick a sports reporter to be the 2nd in command of the free world. Basic failure of judgment.
Posted by: bjstuggzzz at May 25, 2018 03:11 PM (e44Qj)

Ronald Reagan started out as a sports reporter

Posted by: Flawless Male Logic at May 25, 2018 03:40 PM (10vO4)

195 I don't know, because I didn't serve. But, I can't help thinking our military had at least one hand tied behind their back.

If people who served in Iraq tell me I'm worng, I won't argue.

Posted by: qzy at May 25, 2018 03:40 PM (+B1xB)

196 Bush was correct in one regard: establish a stable democracy in an Arab nation, and democracy would spread throughout the region. He just never imagined it would happen on Obama's watch, and he'd piss it away in the failed Arab Spring.

Posted by: Grimaldi at May 25, 2018 03:40 PM (3MG/9)

197 >>Who was also the governor of the largest state in the union.

Largest Welfare State, too.

Posted by: garrett at May 25, 2018 03:41 PM (di+2x)

198 At least Bush should speak out against the deep state if he cares about the nation and the sacrifice of honest people."

Oh come on you know Bush will never speak out against Family.

Posted by: Tom Servo at May 25, 2018 03:41 PM (k1TUh)

199 he'll never stop. Soon, we'll have a hologram McCain running around with an 'H' on his forehead like Rimmer.

Posted by: Mr. Peebles at May 25, 2018 03:42 PM (oVJmc)

200 Posted by: kraken at May 25, 2018 03:40 PM (zSVEm)

With the wrong (SJW) ROE, our finest SEAL team couldn't survive!

Posted by: Comrade Hrothgar at May 25, 2018 03:42 PM (n9EOP)

201 what Trump and McCain have in common:
both guys.
both had a first wife.
both ran for President.
All polls showed The Dem winning the Presidency.

Posted by: mallfly the Peach of Hoboken at May 25, 2018 03:42 PM (KxbBq)

202 You don't pick a sports reporter to be the 2nd in command of the free world
...........

I'll take that over a Chicago Community Organizer any day.

Posted by: wth at May 25, 2018 03:42 PM (HgMAr)

203 Gene Michael's Sports Machine > Sports Reporters

Posted by: garrett at May 25, 2018 03:42 PM (di+2x)

204 You are getting sleepy, - very, very sleepy.

Posted by: John McCain's Tumor at May 25, 2018 03:42 PM (2Mnv1)

205 >>But not as long as TV coverage of his funeral.

I refuse to watch one second of that spectacle.

Posted by: Under Fire at May 25, 2018 03:42 PM (r9UYA)

206 I am bitterly disappointed in W.... but all cards on the table, mostly because of other things than the War....

Posted by: kraken at May 25, 2018 03:43 PM (zSVEm)

207 OT - The LA Times, of all newspapers, noted in an article that Soros is bankrolling the campaigns of various would-be DAs in California. That's not all the article talked about, but I'm surprised they brought up his role in this.

Posted by: junior at May 25, 2018 03:43 PM (zOFlX)

208 I am too old to serve, but I have many family and friends who did, and still are. I am not smart enough to know when to go to war, or when to refrain. However I do know, once you go, fight hard and win. Do not feed the troops into a political meatgrinder.

Posted by: LMD Outer Banker at May 25, 2018 03:43 PM (YuQLm)

209 He just never imagined it would happen on Obama's watch, and he'd piss it away in the failed Arab Spring.
Posted by: Grimaldi at May 25, 2018 03:40 PM (3MG/9)

Guess he didn't pay attention to the little kerfuffle in Viet Nam?

Posted by: Comrade Hrothgar at May 25, 2018 03:43 PM (n9EOP)

210 I agree with this:

I only supported the Iraq war to the extant it allowed us to put troops and air power on three sides of Iran. And, after we succeeded in short order, the Iranian people rose in rebellion against their tyrants and begged for our help. They asked us, the longtime friendly democracy builder sitting there surrounding an ill equipped military and its terrorist allies. Easy win for civilization and revenge for Beirut and Tehran embassy. So sweet.

But, Obama.

And what's more, Bush and Powell didn't say a damn word during the whole sorry betrayal.

If we're always going to throw away our gains, it's not just the invasion of Iraq that we need to reconsider. It's the invasion of Morocco, or Sicily, or Italy, or France that we need to reconsider too.

We're spent the last eighty years to overthrow all the Name Brand Totalitarians to replace them with Generic Totalitarians from Costco. What the fuchs?

Posted by: Thing From Snowy Mountain at May 25, 2018 03:43 PM (87ijN)

211 "I dont believe the Iraq war can be labeled a mistake yet. There is some history to play out yet."

The only way the Iraq War was not a mistake was for the elite that engineered it. It always was and always will be a mistake for the American citizen.

Posted by: Anonymous White Male at May 25, 2018 03:44 PM (9BLnV)

212 Iraq after 9-11 was not a mistake. (Insert tons of back and forth). Opinions vary.

Looking at things now, we need to get serious about respond to China while being 'distracted' by all the crap in the ME. Bah.

Posted by: Tonic Dog at May 25, 2018 03:44 PM (gWaRo)

213 re 184: don't know if you're being sarcastic, but I do recall that Obama supposedly picked (or was handed) Biden because Biden was the one with all the foreign policy experience.
Maybe Trump can neutralize Biden before 2020 by letting him negotiate with little Kim. That way Trump can later be called a failure.

Posted by: mallfly the Peach of Hoboken at May 25, 2018 03:45 PM (KxbBq)

214 I think Trump and McCain can both also be stubborn and narcissistic; I think all politicians are narcissistic. I think Obama has NPD; McCain might too. I don't think
Trump does; NPD's don't really care about people except insofar as how they can use them.

Posted by: FenelonSpoke at May 25, 2018 03:45 PM (vw6r3)

215 Les Nudites

Posted by: All Hail Eris, She-Wolf of the 'Ettes 'Ettes at May 25, 2018 03:45 PM (qJtVm)

216 In retrospect, I don't see how trying to rebuild Iraq could have ever worked for us. Saddam was only able to keep it together by gassing some of his own subjects and running a police state. We were never going to provide or support that kind of strongman government. After knocking off the Baathists, that place was virtually guaranteed to come apart at the seams, kinda like Yugoslavia. Hussein and his shitstain sons had it coming in spades, but we were arrogant, foolish.

Posted by: Bear with Assymetrical Balls at May 25, 2018 03:46 PM (qcrxS)

217 When Bubba croaked "Ah feel yore pain" people fell for it because he had "it."

Posted by: The Wolf at May 25, 2018 03:46 PM (pxOl8)

218 Bush was correct in one regard: establish a stable democracy in an Arab nation, and democracy would spread throughout the region. He just never imagined it would happen on Obama's watch, and he'd piss it away in the failed Arab Spring.

If Bush said a damn thing about that, he didn't do it in public. He honored the Omerta.

Posted by: Thing From Snowy Mountain at May 25, 2018 03:47 PM (87ijN)

219 Well I suppose that leaving Hussein in power would have changed matters in the ME.... theIranian situation might well be different... not that Hussein in power is a good thing, mind you... hey, I am sure others have thought that....

Posted by: kraken at May 25, 2018 03:47 PM (zSVEm)

220 piggy NOOD part 2

Posted by: Max Power at May 25, 2018 03:47 PM (q177U)

221
If I have to apologize for the invasion, I will do so only after every superannuated leftist, retired or in Congress, apologizes for selling South Vietnam down the river, for apologizing for the Soviet Union for years and for applauding the Idiot God's Libya coup and Apology Tour that unleased the refugee crisis.

Posted by: Hadrian the Seventh at May 25, 2018 03:48 PM (BWL+E)

222 A nood, and I just got here... oh well...

Posted by: kraken at May 25, 2018 03:48 PM (zSVEm)

223 214
I think Trump and McCain can both also be stubborn and narcissistic; I
think all politicians are narcissistic. I think Obama has NPD; McCain
might too. I don't think

Trump does; NPD's don't really care about people except insofar as how they can use them.

Posted by: FenelonSpoke at May 25, 2018 03:45 PM (vw6r3)

Mccain seams to be an egotistic asshole , Trump looking better by every day in power.

Posted by: muckrack at May 25, 2018 03:49 PM (U6HrF)

224 http://bit.ly/2KQJ8HV
=====
Thread by @paul_serran: " (1) A thread on "Korea: the Road to Reunification".

Posted by: Internet Tough Guy at May 25, 2018 03:51 PM (y3aQB)

225
I think he still gets residuals from "Lou Grant," no?
Posted by: J.J. Sefton at May 25, 2018 03:32 PM (VM6ev)

Abe rakes in a pretty penny from his Lincoln Logs franchise.

Posted by: Krebs v Carnot: Epic Battle of the Cycling Stars (TM) at May 25, 2018 03:52 PM (NoLse)

226
No, it worked because we outlawed the two major Philosophies or our Enemies... Shintoism, and Nazism...

And replaced them with an American style Bill of Rights.

We did just the opposite in Iraq. We did not outlaw Islam, and in fact allowed them to enshrine Sharia Law into their Constitution.
Posted by: Don Q.... at May 25, 2018 03:32 PM (NgKpN)

----------------------

THIS!!!

Iraq was a country with many minority religions, and several different tribal groups. The two largest groups could not even agree on what REAL ISLAM IS! The SHIA and the SUNNI have been killing each other for over Eight Hundred Freaking Years!!!

And thanks to Obama, they really got down to business with ISIS and SHIA MILITIAS doing atrocity and revenge atrocity.

If any region needs separation of Church and State, it is the freaking Middle East.

The only way the Middle East will be peaceful and productive is to remove Islam from Government.

The blood in Iraq is the direct fault of the idiots in the Bush State Department.

Posted by: rd at May 25, 2018 03:53 PM (4dz1m)

227 nood

Posted by: Vic We Have No Party at May 25, 2018 03:53 PM (mpXpK)

228 And notice that Politico rewards McCain by saying he's just like Trump.
He didn't even get his 30 pieces of media silver. Bad way to go out.

Posted by: PJ at May 25, 2018 03:56 PM (qlTN9)

229 I served in the time-frame of the first Iraq war (I never was in any bad situations although I do have the Southwest Asia service ribbon) I did deploy twice to the area. and I had the sinking suspicion that it was no over and that we would be back. We should have taken Iraq then and destroyed Saddam. We left the first time without a complete victory and the ROE and the administration of HW Bush were not up to winning the war decisively. Total war or nothing. O fuckstick was even worse than Bush. The two Bushes and Ofuckears were not good for our nation. Clintonrapemesomewemens was not good for us either. Such a waste.

Posted by: USNtakim prfoundly deplorable! at May 25, 2018 03:56 PM (0OmEj)

230 I turned against the way the war was being fought around 2004-05 period. However, my reasons were drastically different than Democrats and leftists.

My view - Iraq should have been broken up, and real nations (in this case Kurdistan would have been most useful) created. Nations that would limit both Iranian and Sunni Arab Islamist expansion. Instead we tried to prop up a old Ottoman district / British invention. If not that then we should have gotten out.

The trouble with McCain admitting this now is that he is not doing to appease people like me, or others who just had a major problem. He is doing it to appease the left. He is the Republican McNamara, just that he won't be around ten years later being used a prop for the American left.

Posted by: William Eaton at May 25, 2018 03:57 PM (MuTTO)

231 IMO the positive outcomes we had in WW2 with japan and Germany were die to their cultures, in combination with total defeat and the outside threat of the USSR.

Germany was basically a western culture with an authoritarian bent. When defeated they could finally make the transition from the Kaiser of WW1 to a modern democracy. They had the foundation.

Japan was an alien culture but one based upon obedience in general and to the emperor in particular. Once the emperor said we surrender and we'll get with the program that is what happened. They were also totally defeated and had an outside threat from the USSR.

I don't think that would have worked in Vietnam. We could have totally defeated them but culturally we did not have a stable alternative to build on that. We were only offering a corrupt US favoring banana republic that was weak sauce compared to the (false) promise of communism. Vietnam was agrian russia circa 1917. Hard to see that forming any stable outcome like you saw after WW2.

With the middle east, it gets back to the same lack of cultural affinity. Western democracy is seen as weak compared to both tribal and religious conventions that have been ingrained for thousands of years. It's hard to see even a scorched earth total victory having a positive outcome. Iraq seems stabilized now but how fragile is that, actually? How many more decades, generations would we need to have Iraq be Germany 1955?

And as noted, we lack the patience and resources to drag out a process for a generation or two as required to counter that ingrained tribal and religious culture. Frankly, we lacked that willpower in WW2. The boys were coming home in 1945, 56 at the latest. The public was done with war and we were fortunate we did not have to substantially nationbuild after that.

Our system has many advantages but sustained commitments in foreign lands that are difficult and costly is not one of them. We ramped up after Korea to face the USSR in the cold war with a fairly substantial footing because it was cold, basically affordable with our economy at the time and there was a real and clear nuclear threat to the people at home. That threat evaporated and, true to course, so did the Reagan military. I was there when it happened and that was practically overnight in speed.

My opinion...

Posted by: Keith at May 25, 2018 03:58 PM (USf3s)

232 So when do you all start demanding the President bring the troops home from the Middle East, Afghanistan and South Korea?

Posted by: YatYas at May 25, 2018 03:58 PM (XMhnq)

233
I think Trump and McCain can both also be stubborn and narcissistic; I
think all politicians are narcissistic. I think Obama has NPD; McCain
might too. I don't think

Trump does; NPD's don't really care about people except insofar as how they can use them.

Posted by: FenelonSpoke at May 25, 2018 03:45 PM (vw6r3)

Mccain seams to be an egotistic asshole , Trump looking better by every day in power.
Posted by: muckrack at May 25, 2018 03:49 PM (U6HrF)

______________________

I don't care if President Trump is really deep down a psychopath and narcissistic. His actual behavior is not. He either really cares about people, or he is really, really good at simulating it. Either way, his actual behavior is what matters.

This is what the Holier than Thou NeverTrumpers just do not understand.

Results Matter.
Actions Matter.
Trump doesn't talk the BS talk,
Trump walks the walk!

Posted by: rd at May 25, 2018 03:59 PM (4dz1m)

234 You can always second guess war, because it should never be fought in the first place. War is simply a fact of human existence and a product of our own weakness. But to say one should have never been fought is to be ignorant of the very premise upon which the execution of any battle rests. That is largely judgment of an enemies inevitable threat to your own existence, way of life, security- and at what point you address it. Recriminations or animadversions regarding those point in time judgements are almost never accurate or sound. You can never fully create the circumstances under which the original decision was made. Never. That's the domain of fools and heretics of truth.

Posted by: Marcus T at May 25, 2018 04:01 PM (VpIIl)

235 The McCain Institution is about as dirty as The Clinton Foundation. GITMO for them all.

Posted by: Monk at May 25, 2018 04:01 PM (9acFt)

236 These people at the top profitting off the death and suffering of others across the globe including our own county are sociopaths/psyxhopaths at the least and literal demons in skin suits at the worst.

Posted by: Monk at May 25, 2018 04:03 PM (9acFt)

237 We should have blasted through Iraq and attacked Iran. Which is what I originally thought the entire exercise was about. Nation building in Iraq is stupid and wasteful.

It doesn't help that Obama undermined everything GWB did in Iraq. Obama knows how that feels now LoL

Posted by: magic8192 at May 25, 2018 04:08 PM (90m8i)

238 4 Amazing how that Nation Building thing never quite seems to work out as planned by our betters. Why it's almost if the citizens of a country don't care enough to rescue themselves from a sh!thole of a country, no amount of beneficence outside influence will help!

Posted by: Comrade Hrothgar at May 25, 2018 03:06 PM

Yep. I do not think that it was a mistake to end the Saddam Hussein regime and work towards making Iraq the first step in reshaping the Middle East for the better.

The problem, in my opinion, was two main issues:

(1) the assumption by elites in the West that Islam is compatible with modern civilization and Muslims had any desire to bring the Middle East into modern civilization

(2) the execution of the war effort and post-war effort

I have kept bookmarked for years now a great article by John David Lewis written in 2007 entitled "No Substitute for Victory: The Defeat of Islamic Totalitarianism".

Unfortunately, it looks like the full article no longer exists: https://bit.ly/2ILH9UE

But here is a good summary of it: https://bit.ly/2xjWA5k

But the main point of his essay is that the mistake of Iraq was not using the WWII strategy. Mainly in the post-war effort. He notes that after WWII, the Allies set the rules for post-war Germany and post-war Japan. Banned were NAZIism and Shintoism.

As such, so too should Islam have been banned from the post-war governments of Iraq and Afghanistan. Once the US-led coalition in Afghanistan and Iraq allowed the Afghanis and Iraqis to keep Islam as a part of their government, the effort was doomed to fail.

But I do not think the nation-building idea was the problem. Germany and Japan are flourishing today post-WWII. The difference with Afghanistan and Iraq is that (1) the people of those countries are not willing to bring themselves into modern civilization and (2) the people of the West are not solidly behind the idea that Western civilization is the best and the standard for the rest of the world, as they did during/post-WWII.

Just imagine how WWII would have turned out if half the nation and the entire mass media were all working to undermine it every step of the way, as happened for the Afghanistan and Iraq efforts from 2003 forward.

Posted by: Clyde Shelton at May 25, 2018 04:14 PM (7A4qQ)

239 I was for the invasion of Iraq until I found out that the plan from the generals included going house-to-house kicking in doors and not utilizing our technical advantage (i.e. dropping 2,000# JDAMs until the enemy and citizens (BIRM) begs for it to stop or there are no enemy breathing).

1,000's of Iraqis are not worth one of our soldiers lives. If the plan isn't to bomb them into submission than I'm not voting for it.

Posted by: john doesky at May 25, 2018 04:17 PM (Zpygp)

240 Coming up on Memorial Day think about this, especially those of us who called for the war, knowing the costs. How can you repay those men for that sacrifice? How can you ever live a good enough life to earn what they paid for?

It's not with this type of phony, self-righteous, second guessing, personal guilt letting.

Posted by: Marcus T at May 25, 2018 03:23 PM

Amen to everything you stated, sir.

Posted by: King Julien at May 25, 2018 04:32 PM (7A4qQ)

241 Afghanistan, Iraq, and Iran all had some amount of Westernization before the radical/Dictators came into power. Maybe not as much as Turkey but still not stone age.

Erdogan elevates islam in Turkey and now they are going the same route as Iran.

Posted by: Ben Had at May 25, 2018 04:41 PM (LH8Hn)

242 There is nothing inherently wrong with the concept of nation building IF AND ONLY IF you do it this way:

1 - No rules of engagement. Ever.
2 - Go in with overwhelming violence and force to wipeout all military and irregular forces.
3 - Minimizing collateral damage is not, repeat, not a priority or even a concern.
4 - Impose the severest form of martial law possible. Take over all political, cultural and religious institutions and de-Islamify everything.
5 - Then and only then can you say "mission accomplished and leave the country,

Since this ain't ever gonna happen, I see no problems.

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at May 25, 2018 03:29 PM

This.

I would add that you need a Trump-like leader who is willing and able to stand up to every a-hole in the media and Democrat Party who would be working to undermine the war effort every step of the way.

That, in my opinion, was a *huge* reason why the war efforts in Afghanistan and Iraq lost support of the large portion of the American public: neither President Bush nor anyone in his Administration, confidently and forcefully went out every day and not only defended the war effort, but went around the media and got the facts out there about all the successes in the effort.

I knew these things, because I had discovered military blogs like Blackfive and This Ain't Hell and The Mudville Gazette and was making them daily reads. But the majority of people were just getting the lies and propaganda from the media and were hearing nothing different from the Bush Administration or the GOP.

Posted by: King Julien at May 25, 2018 04:46 PM (7A4qQ)

243 No, it worked because we outlawed the two major Philosophies or our Enemies... Shintoism, and Nazism...

And replaced them with an American style Bill of Rights.

We did just the opposite in Iraq. We did not outlaw Islam, and in fact allowed them to enshrine Sharia Law into their Constitution.

Posted by: Don Q.... at May 25, 2018 03:32 PM

Bingo. This.

Posted by: Clyde Shelton at May 25, 2018 04:50 PM (7A4qQ)

244 Fuck McCain.

Posted by: FuckMcCain at May 25, 2018 05:27 PM (vfoe1)

245 I have to say Ace, I respect the fact that you're friends with Ben Domenech and yet you still have the stones to shit all over his father-in-law. Lol.

Posted by: Lamont Cranston at May 25, 2018 05:44 PM (3ufaJ)

246 Invading Iraq was necessary

Staying was the mistake

Posted by: RobM1981 at May 25, 2018 06:44 PM (46xT3)

247 I shed a lot of bolo fighting Chi Com '67 +'68. I followed the POW +MIA closely till Bush I killed it 38 years ago.
Some facts that the LSM almost never reports:

1. 95 % of the POW's never got out alive! 1 more time for EMPHASIS. ONLY 5% OF THE POW's lived to tell their tales!

2. The overwhelming majority of the 5% who lived (between 65% and 75% depending on who is reporting.) were either physically or mentally maimed. A great example of mentally maimed is the Adm who was Ross's VP "What am I doing here?"

The year after John came home he was running for America's most active adulterer! Clearly not physically maimed. I think he was not mentally maimed - either. So why did John get such favorable, easy treatment? I know not ; but it is clear he is not dead and also not maimed!

Posted by: Rodney Stanton at May 25, 2018 07:39 PM (y/CzF)

248 Look at how much effort we're having to put into deterring the nuclear ambitions of North Korea and Iran. Now imagine Saddam Hussein in that mix. He wasn't going to sit idle while Iran plays with centrifuges.

Posted by: Brisco_County_Sr at May 25, 2018 11:42 PM (k6NDF)

249 In retrospect, it is morbidly funny to think that my mistake in supporting Bush's dreams for democracy in the middle east was based on the flaw of being inadequately racist.

Posted by: Anotheranon at May 26, 2018 01:14 AM (tKpEr)

250 Iraq was a total mistake.
You cannot help a nation that is determined to be what it is and was.
Islam seeing help as dishonorable will always feel humiliated.
For Islam Humiliation is a blood libel.
The US should have concentrated on Afghanistan, Osama and left Iraq to Saddam, they deserved each other.
If anything, Iraq should have been bombed flat and left to rebuild themselves.
We lost good men and women there for basically nothing.
My family lost marriages, time and treasure there and I lost a cousin.
The rule from now on should be, "Never elect a RINO, never Let a RINO run a war."
Not just McCain but Bush, not to mention the disloyal democrats who made it worse than it could have been.
Iraq sucked.
"Nothin' from Nothin' Leaves Nothin' You have to have somethin' and that wasn't there in Iraq."

Posted by: obsidian at May 26, 2018 10:43 AM (ARK2U)

251 Thing is, Iraq looks a helluva lot better today than it did fifteen years ago, or than its neighbors egypt/syria/lebanon/libya/iran/gaza look today.

Now that it's mellowed out that McCain decides it sucks speaks as loudly about his lack of judgement or sense as his detractors always have.

Posted by: BuddyPC at May 26, 2018 10:45 AM (KP19E)

252 Will John McCain JUST DIE ALREADY???!!!

Posted by: Wildcat72 at May 26, 2018 11:37 AM (yiAMj)

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