The Morning Rant: J.V. Edition

Humans are really, really cruel and mean sometimes. Why didn't they just throw some poo at this guy and call it a day?

Arizona Cop Acquitted for Killing Man Crawling Down Hotel Hallway While Begging for His Life

You want a rant? I'll give you a rant.

This is murder, and no amount of obfuscation or sucking up to the cops (I'm looking at you Patterico) will change the facts. Sure, you can break it down frame by frame and contort and massage your way to a conclusion that maybe, just maybe, the cops had a tiny window during which it wasn't perfectly, 100% clear that all they had was a dumb drunk on their hands who was terrified and who was also horribly confused by their psychotic, pulling-the-wings-off-flies behavior, and even more insane instructions.

The fact is that policing in America is broken, and this case is a perfect example of it. We have morphed from the idea that policemen are our friends and neighbors and are there to help, into some dystopian nightmare where rogue cops get to do pretty much whatever they want and then get away with it. And why do they get away with it? Because the thin blue line protects them. That line usually includes the prosecutors, who need the cops to lie about evidence and lie on the stand and lie to judges about warrants, so that Mr. Prosecutor gets a promotion and a ticket to the state capital or a cushy private sector job. And in return? He tanks murder prosecutions against the cops.

And the so-called "honest cops," who supposedly make up 99.9% of the police in America? Bullshit. They are crooks too. Because every time they turn their backs on the criminality of one of their fellow officers they are breaking the law.

The shooter had "You're Fvcked" etched on the dust cover of his rifle. As far as I am concerned: QED...murder. And I am sick and tired of hearing about how the lives of our police officers are so damned important. I don't see firemen hanging out outside of burning buildings until everything is safe. A lot of those guys run into burning buildings to save people...because that's the job, and that's the risk they signed up for. Cops also signed up for similar risks. Civilian lives are more important than cop lives. Sorry, but that's the reality. If you don't want to take the risk, then don't become a cop. Become a tree-trimmer or a cab driver or a construction worker or a lumberjack. But wait...those occupations are MORE dangerous than being a cop.

I have seen out-of-control cops behave exactly this way, even here in my little slice of suburbia. An asshole buzz-cutted iron-pumping cop screwing with some poor soccer mom who is late to pick up her kids from school, or a bunch of idiot drunk teenagers? Wow...real tough. How about you take a little jaunt to Afghanistan and cower in your piss and shit while real men fight real bad guys and still have the time and humanity to care for the weak and the defenseless. But you won't do that, because they don't make nearly the money that you do as a wannabe tough-guy who is just itching to shoot someone, and deep down inside you know that you aren't the real man you want to be...You aren't tough...you're just a bully. And now a murderer.

And just in case you might think that I am furious simply because this is a white victim, take a look at this video of the Walter Scott Murder. It's just as bad. At least he's going to jail, to the surprise of everyone involved, most of all him and his buddies.

******
Shocking as it may seem, we may be getting a raw deal from our Republican overlords. Hooray, concealed carry reciprocity? Not so fast. Yeah, I know, I'm just as surprised as you are.
******

When you thought you were falling to your death 😂😂😂 pic.twitter.com/bdqwQfVune
— CHICAGLO☀️ (@balenciaglo) December 10, 2017

What kind of a sick fvck thought of this. Come clean....it was obviously a Moron.

******
L.A. Speed Check

Posted by: CBD at 11:20 AM

Comments

(Jump to bottom of comments)

1 Damn good rant, CBD.

Posted by: Insomniac - Nobody in Particular at December 13, 2017 11:19 AM (NWiLs)

2 It was straight-up murder and I could not agree more, CBD.

Posted by: WhatWhatWhat? at December 13, 2017 11:20 AM (ul9CR)

3 If not covered before?
Book plug for our cookbook just showed up on Instapundit.
Doctor Helen, Moronette.

Posted by: Stringer Davis at December 13, 2017 11:21 AM (H5rtT)

4 What kind of a sick fvck thought of this. Come clean....it was obviously a Moron.

I watched a video a while back on the building of it. Pretty damn cool.

Posted by: WhatWhatWhat? at December 13, 2017 11:21 AM (ul9CR)

5 Posted by: Stringer Davis at December 13, 2017 11:21 AM (H5rtT)

Nice! Insty's a good 'un.

Posted by: WhatWhatWhat? at December 13, 2017 11:22 AM (ul9CR)

6 Bravissimo!!

Posted by: Uncle Rick at December 13, 2017 11:22 AM (38HyZ)

7 But was it murder-murder?

Posted by: Whoopi at December 13, 2017 11:23 AM (ppBhU)

8 Trying to find the article right now, but there was a very thorough breakdown of the shooting by an attorney, and the summary was:

- The sergeant (not the shooter, but the asshole heard playing Simon Says) should be fired
- It's impossible to know what actually happened based on one camera angle
- I don't know what was presented at the trial, and neither do you

Posted by: hogmartin at December 13, 2017 11:23 AM (y87Qq)

9 This video made me think a service dog would be handy...

if only to draw fire from the Police.

Posted by: garrett at December 13, 2017 11:23 AM (XHDFG)

10 So 'conservatives' are voting for gun control. i would hazard a guess that these are ALL RINOs or DIABLO.

Posted by: Vic We Have No Party at December 13, 2017 11:24 AM (mpXpK)

11 Thank you to the Moron(s) who sent a copy of the cookbook to Dr. Helen Smith/Instapundit. That was really nice of you.

Posted by: bluebell ~ get cooking, Horde! at December 13, 2017 11:24 AM (kNasr)

12 En fuego!

Posted by: That Guy Who Shouts "En fuego!" at December 13, 2017 11:24 AM (ctuyM)

13 Good rant. I've seen it from both sides of the street--prosecution and defense. My own son was rousted for--get this--not having his blinker on long enough by an Arkansas sheriff's deputy, which resulted in an hour long detainment and complete search of his car while he stood with his hands on the hood and a gun at his head. He was just trying to get home from Texas. This for a kid with a 4.0 GPA and security clearance.

Funny how the apologies came rolling in when I sent a letter on my letterhead threatening a lawsuit.

Posted by: RS at December 13, 2017 11:24 AM (CNQqJ)

14 Her name was Justine Damond.

Posted by: Grump928(C) at December 13, 2017 11:24 AM (QQ+il)

15 2
It was straight-up murder and I could not agree more, CBD.

Posted by: WhatWhatWhat? at December 13, 2017 11:20 AM (ul9CR)
---
Got a jury in Arizona that says otherwise. Though I am not sure they saw the video of the shooting, but please correct me if I am wrong.

Posted by: Penfold at December 13, 2017 11:25 AM (Fbt5B)

16 Posted by: Insomniac - Nobody in Particular at December 13, 2017 11:19 AM (NWiLs)

I have seen your comments about this case but didn't have the time to jump up and down yelling, "THIS! THIS!"

So here it is....

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at December 13, 2017 11:25 AM (wYseH)

17 LE is typically not your friend.

Posted by: Under Fire-Moldova Curious at December 13, 2017 11:25 AM (r9UYA)

18 Tipping Guam Johnson giving Rosenstein a hard time.

Posted by: mallfly the Peach of Hoboken at December 13, 2017 11:25 AM (ILitO)

19 Yeah, I was shocked, shocked to see Patterico write an apologia (no matter how much he claims it wasn't an apologia, it was) for the cops.

Just like I'm shocked, shocked that Andrew McCarthy thinks Staselral;dfj's texts are no big deal because hey we all talk salty about politics in private amirite or amirite?

Oh and CBD? I have seen your comments, oh, yes, yes, I have.

Posted by: alexthechick - Breathe deeply. Namaste. Prayer-hands. Warrior Pose. at December 13, 2017 11:26 AM (mf5HN)

20 Here's the article I mentioned.

https://tinyurl.com/y8fowxow

Posted by: hogmartin at December 13, 2017 11:26 AM (y87Qq)

21 So does this mean white NFLers will join in on the kneeling?

Posted by: Northernlurker at December 13, 2017 11:26 AM (TisfY)

22
Anyone know who Tina Smith is? She was named Franken's replacement.

Posted by: TheQuietMan at December 13, 2017 11:27 AM (493sH)

23 Evidence that even the police dep't knew it was murder, but went along with the coverup so as not to admit complicity - within 2 months, the cop who did the shooting was fired for various unspecified reasons. And not long after, the supervisor who you hear barking out contradictory orders not only retired, but left the country. For good, hopefully. Sounds like someone was worried about a lawsuit or two, so you won't be able to track him down anymore.

Posted by: Tom Servo at December 13, 2017 11:27 AM (k1TUh)

24 LE is never your friend.

You might have a friend who is a Cop. Even some relatives.

But, if you have any interaction with the Police you must always remember that they are NOT to be trusted.

Posted by: garrett at December 13, 2017 11:27 AM (XHDFG)

25 22
Anyone know who Tina Smith is? She was named Franken's replacement.

The Lt. Gov

Posted by: WhatWhatWhat? at December 13, 2017 11:28 AM (ul9CR)

26 That scene from The Man with Two Brains where the traffic cop makes Steve Martin walk on his hands, stand on one hand, and juggle to prove he wasn't DUI would have been much funnier if the policeman shot him to death at short range with a rifle at the end.

Posted by: Mr. Feverhead at December 13, 2017 11:28 AM (hUqh+)

27 Anyone know who Tina Smith is? She was named Franken's replacement.

Minn.? Chosen by Dayton? A friggin liberal on par or worse than Fraken

Posted by: It's me donna at December 13, 2017 11:28 AM (O2RFr)

28 large cities attract shitty cops.

Posted by: Monk at December 13, 2017 11:28 AM (g4lFK)

29 Posted by: hogmartin at December 13, 2017 11:26 AM (y87Qq)

Try to keep up.

That's Patterico.

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at December 13, 2017 11:28 AM (wYseH)

30 This made me sick to my stomach. I've known a few cops in my life and know one very well right now. The one I know now is a great guy but the ones I have known before? Straight up psycho.

Posted by: Jewells45 canhandleyourjewels at December 13, 2017 11:28 AM (zRZaJ)

31 So...the glass breaking is fake/an illusion? Yikes.

I still want to go to the north rim of the Grand Canyon and walk the glass bridge...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=2v=laveE4bUm3M

Posted by: Lizzy at December 13, 2017 11:29 AM (W+vEI)

32 >>So does this mean white NFLers will join in on the kneeling?

What it means is the claim that cops target blacks at higher rates than whites and never violate the rights of whites is and always has been complete bullshit.

Posted by: JackStraw at December 13, 2017 11:29 AM (/tuJf)

33 That Shaver killing was an execution, pure and simple. The acquittal was shocking.

Posted by: Cicero (@cicero) at December 13, 2017 11:29 AM (zmvwV)

34 22
Anyone know who Tina Smith is? She was named Franken's replacement.

Al Franken in drag.

Posted by: Mr. Feverhead at December 13, 2017 11:29 AM (hUqh+)

35 The same thing happened in PA a few years back, where a woman cop (Lisa Mearkle) shot a guy who was laying face down in the back after having already tased him.

She got fired, but sued to get her job back.

Posted by: Hikaru at December 13, 2017 11:29 AM (WDCYi)

36 large cities attract shitty cops.

Posted by: Monk at December 13, 2017 11:28 AM (g4lFK)

Mesa isn't a large city, and neither is my little village.

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at December 13, 2017 11:30 AM (wYseH)

37 What I like is that CNN is now in the habit of destroying its credibility on a daily basis.

Posted by: *Mikey NTH - Holiday Magic! Get a Face-Plant Hillary doll from the Outrage Outlet! at December 13, 2017 11:30 AM (hLRSq)

38

large cities attract shit~~ty cops~~.

Posted by: Bertram Cabot, Jr. at December 13, 2017 11:30 AM (IqV8l)

39 @Lizzy

It's technically the "West Rim" on the Hualapi Reservation. Very cool and an easy drive from Las Vegas.

Posted by: RS at December 13, 2017 11:30 AM (CNQqJ)

40 Try to keep up.

That's Patterico.
Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at December 13, 2017 11:28 AM (wYseH)

And so it is. I didn't remember who it was or where it was posted.

Posted by: hogmartin at December 13, 2017 11:30 AM (y87Qq)

41 I've done the glass-floored observation deck at the CN Tower in Toronto a few times. Yikes.

Posted by: WhatWhatWhat? at December 13, 2017 11:30 AM (ul9CR)

42 Tina Smith is one of Governor Dayton's (a pathetic and cowardly idiot, btw) long time aides. Basically when the decision came to him he just looked at who was standing closest to him at the time and said "hey, you wanna do it?"

That would be about as much thought as Dayton ever puts into any decision he makes. Good news, she probably will be a pretty weak candidate in a general election, so Dems aren't really happy about his pick.

Posted by: Tom Servo at December 13, 2017 11:30 AM (k1TUh)

43 Hey, after the Kate Steinle verdict nothing surprises me.

Posted by: Concerned People's Front Splitter Chapter at December 13, 2017 11:30 AM (2X7pN)

44 >>large cities attract shitty cops.

Unfortunately, it's the job not the locale that attracts shitty humans.

Posted by: garrett at December 13, 2017 11:30 AM (XHDFG)

45 I do not disagree with most of your rant CBD but I will say that there are many combat veterans who are now cops.

Posted by: Alabaster Jones at December 13, 2017 11:30 AM (2DOZq)

46 Trying to find the article right now, but there was a very thorough breakdown of the shooting by an attorney, and the summary was:

- The sergeant (not the shooter, but the asshole heard playing Simon Says) should be fired
- It's impossible to know what actually happened based on one camera angle
- I don't know what was presented at the trial, and neither do you
Posted by: hogmartin at December 13, 2017 11:23 AM (y87Qq)

That was Patterico and that is the apologia that he keeps saying isn't an apologia. Uh. Huh.

Patterico is a prosecutor. He is about as fair an evaluator of the actions of the police as I am about the ability, skill, wit, personal hygiene, state of paternity, and nature of family relations of the New York Yankees, both management and players.

Posted by: alexthechick - Breathe deeply. Namaste. Prayer-hands. Warrior Pose. at December 13, 2017 11:30 AM (mf5HN)

47 Posted by: garrett at December 13, 2017 11:27 AM (XHDFG)

All these shootings and questionable arrests have me wondering (and any lawyers or cops here if you could chime in)- at what point during an interaction with police am I supposed to demand a lawyer and shut up?

I got pulled over for speeding once and cooperated since I was just getting a ticket (I was at fault, I was speeding). When do the rules change? It seems like it would be a bad idea to just sit there silently or demand a lawyer when all you're getting is a speeding ticket. I'm not one of these "WELL IF YOU'VE GOT NOTHING TO HIDE..." mental midgets, but I'm curious where the line is- being smart dealing with police vs causing yourself more trouble.

Posted by: The Deplorable Mr. Trumpkin at December 13, 2017 11:31 AM (wwd4n)

48 I will say that there are many combat veterans who are now cops.

Posted by: Alabaster Jones at December 13, 2017 11:30 AM (2DOZq)

Maybe not enough?

I don't have the answer.

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at December 13, 2017 11:31 AM (wYseH)

49
Rosenstein is being questioned now. I'd like to see that guy really grilled but I'm sure it will be the usual white glove treatment.

Posted by: TheQuietMan at December 13, 2017 11:32 AM (493sH)

50 We'll just have to learn to absorb these police executions.

Posted by: Under Fire-Moldova Curious at December 13, 2017 11:32 AM (r9UYA)

51 I have seen your comments about this case but didn't have the time to jump up and down yelling, "THIS! THIS!"

So here it is....
Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at December 13, 2017 11:25 AM (wYseH)

I am honored. This is one of the most galling things I've seen.

Posted by: Insomniac - Nobody in Particular at December 13, 2017 11:32 AM (NWiLs)

52 >>All these shootings and questionable arrests have me wondering (and any lawyers or cops here if you could chime in)- at what point during an interaction with police am I supposed to demand a lawyer and shut up?

It should be the first thing you do.

Hand over your License and the Contact info for a Lawyer you have on retainer and Zip It.

Posted by: garrett at December 13, 2017 11:32 AM (XHDFG)

53 I got pulled over for speeding once and cooperated since I was just getting a ticket (I was at fault, I was speeding). When do the rules change? It seems like it would be a bad idea to just sit there silently or demand a lawyer when all you're getting is a speeding ticket. I'm not one of these "WELL IF YOU'VE GOT NOTHING TO HIDE..." mental midgets, but I'm curious where the line is- being smart dealing with police vs causing yourself more trouble.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8z7NC5sgik

Posted by: Concerned People's Front Splitter Chapter at December 13, 2017 11:33 AM (2X7pN)

54 Posted by: The Deplorable Mr. Trumpkin at December 13, 2017 11:31 AM (wwd4n)

Don't offer any information, and always...ALWAYS refuse access to your home, office, car, whatever.

No officer, you may not "take a look around." I refuse permission for any search.

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at December 13, 2017 11:34 AM (wYseH)

55 Contact Info / Card.

Be polite, succinct, and ONLY inform the Officer that you are happy to cooperate with any orders he may have for you.

Posted by: garrett at December 13, 2017 11:34 AM (XHDFG)

56 I will say that there are many combat veterans who are now cops.

Posted by: Alabaster Jones at December 13, 2017

. . .

Without disparaging vets, I don't know that combat experience necessarily translates a good education/training/experience for law enforcement.

Posted by: Bear with Assymetrical Balls at December 13, 2017 11:34 AM (ppBhU)

57 Posted by: garrett at December 13, 2017 11:32 AM (XHDFG)

Literally just not respond to anything they're saying?

From what I've seen from cops that's an easy way to get hassled, searched, detained, etc...

Posted by: The Deplorable Mr. Trumpkin at December 13, 2017 11:34 AM (wwd4n)

58 >>Rosenstein is being questioned now. I'd like to see that guy really grilled but I'm sure it will be the usual white glove treatment.

If you are waiting for a bomb to drop it seems unlikely because of DOJ rules. But he has confirmed multiple times that there is and has been a DOJ OIG investigation going on and the things that are coming out like the texts and the people being put on ice are all do to that investigation.

He claims that the OIG report will be published soon and we will see all the details of his findings.

Posted by: JackStraw at December 13, 2017 11:34 AM (/tuJf)

59 Has the Chicago cop that emptied his mag into the drugged out kid walking down the middle of the street gone to trial? The one in the video Rahm & co. kept under wraps for a couple years?

Posted by: BignJames at December 13, 2017 11:35 AM (1Oy/Q)

60 Nobody was fired the Salt Lake Police when they cuffed the Nurse who was trying to protect a patient.

I had a gun drawn on me during a field trip for minerals during College, the cops got a call about about a gang fight. I had a Pick Ax and my Friend had a shovel I froze so did my friend. Our Professor came running with her hands up saying we were from the college doing a field trip on Glaciers.

The cop just said they had a call about a gang fight and left, no sorry for scaring the shit out of us

Posted by: Patrick From Ohio at December 13, 2017 11:35 AM (dKiJG)

61 And if he insists on ordering you out of your car, he is gonna try and search it.

So - lock the keys in there.

Posted by: garrett at December 13, 2017 11:35 AM (XHDFG)

62 >>It's technically the "West Rim" on the Hualapi Reservation. Very cool and an easy drive from Las Vegas.

Ah, thanks! I've only visited the south rim - it is so beautiful, amazing.

Posted by: Lizzy at December 13, 2017 11:35 AM (W+vEI)

63 He claims that the OIG report will be published soon and we will see all the details of his findings.

Posted by: JackStraw at December 13, 2017 11:34 AM (/tuJf)

Pull the other one.

Posted by: blaster at December 13, 2017 11:36 AM (WonQS)

64 47 Posted by: garrett at December 13, 2017 11:27 AM (XHDFG)

All these shootings and questionable arrests have me wondering (and any lawyers or cops here if you could chime in)- at what point during an interaction with police am I supposed to demand a lawyer and shut up?

I got pulled over for speeding once and cooperated since I was just getting a ticket (I was at fault, I was speeding). When do the rules change? It seems like it would be a bad idea to just sit there silently or demand a lawyer when all you're getting is a speeding ticket. I'm not one of these "WELL IF YOU'VE GOT NOTHING TO HIDE..." mental midgets, but I'm curious where the line is- being smart dealing with police vs causing yourself more trouble.

Posted by: The Deplorable Mr. Trumpkin at December 13, 2017 11:31 AM (wwd4n)

A few years back, we had a lawyer who did local radio on Saturdays, and he always said to NEVER do what the police tell you to when they pull you over.

He eventually got busted for embezzlement.

Posted by: Hikaru at December 13, 2017 11:36 AM (WDCYi)

65 'roid rage?
Ubiquitous cameras are showing us more about humans than we might want to know. Certainly more than they want us to know.

Posted by: Burger Chef at December 13, 2017 11:37 AM (RuIsu)

66
Hand over your License and the Contact info for a Lawyer you have on retainer and Zip It.
Posted by: garrett at December 13, 2017 11:32 AM

How many average Joes have a lawyer on constant retainer?

Posted by: Bertram Cabot, Jr. at December 13, 2017 11:37 AM (IqV8l)

67 >>Literally just not respond to anything they're saying?

You must respond to all orders. You DO NOT have to volunteer to answer any question or hold a conversation.

Inform them of your willingness to comply, politely and succinctly and that is it.

Posted by: garrett at December 13, 2017 11:37 AM (XHDFG)

68 8 Trying to find the article right now, but there was a very thorough breakdown of the shooting by an attorney, and the summary was:

- The sergeant (not the shooter, but the asshole heard playing Simon Says) should be fired
- It's impossible to know what actually happened based on one camera angle
- I don't know what was presented at the trial, and neither do you

Posted by: hogmartin at December 13, 2017 11:23 AM (y87Qq)

- As mentioned @23, he retired and left the country--specifically, he moved to the Philippines
- True, but the audio of the screamin' sergeant was captured very well and he prolonged and escalated the situation
- I do know that the video was presented but the fact that the shooter had "You're Fucked" etched into his ejection port dust cover was withheld from the jury

Posted by: Big McLargehuge Mk I at December 13, 2017 11:37 AM (u9OP6)

69 Posted by: The Deplorable Mr. Trumpkin at December 13, 2017 11:31 AM (wwd4n)

It's about demonstrating confidence in your rights. I'm as conservative as you get, but I will not be bullied by cops who think they can do whatever they want.

Some years back, I pulled into an immigration check point in the SW. I had my U.S. passport. I was in a single cab pick-up with hiking stuff in the bed. But, the border patrol was bored and demanded a search of my vehicle.

I refused as I was in the U.S. and I had not been to Mexico. The agent threatened me with detention until a state trooper could arrive with a drug sniffing dog. I said, "Fine. Then I'm under arrest and you will be sued." I also handed her my wallet law license registration.

Surprise! I was told "Have a nice day" and released.

Know your rights. Assert your rights. That's the answer.

Posted by: RS at December 13, 2017 11:38 AM (CNQqJ)

70 67 >>Literally just not respond to anything they're saying?

You must respond to all orders. You DO NOT have to volunteer to answer any question or hold a conversation.

Inform them of your willingness to comply, politely and succinctly and that is it.
Posted by: garrett at December 13, 2017 11:37 AM (XHDFG)

Well, lawful orders. The practical problem is that if you don't comply with an unlawful order they will MAKE you comply with the unlawful order.

Posted by: Insomniac - Nobody in Particular at December 13, 2017 11:38 AM (NWiLs)

71 Jim Jordan cock slapping Rosenstein.

Posted by: Under Fire-Moldova Curious at December 13, 2017 11:38 AM (r9UYA)

72 >>How many average Joes have a lawyer on constant retainer?

It don't cost much. They just have to be in your employ, not at your beck and call. (Is that how you spell 'beck' for beck and call?)

Posted by: garrett at December 13, 2017 11:39 AM (XHDFG)

73 But, if you have any interaction with the Police you must always remember that they are NOT to be trusted.

Posted by: garrett
--
In spades.

I was a murder suspect for the suicide death of my wife even though I was 100 miles away two days before and one day after she died.

The first responding cop told me not to cooperate with the detectives - they are going to try to pin it on you. That's how bad it is.

Posted by: Tonypete at December 13, 2017 11:39 AM (akHM/)

74 As an Arizonan, I was appalled at this verdict. But it's probably not fair to blame the prosecutors in this case. They charged the cop with second-degree murder. Also, the Mesa PD fired him after the internal investigation.

I'm not even sure the jury is entirely to blame, as they were not allowed to see all the relevant evidence. For example, the judge ruled that the "You're Fucked" inscription on the gun could not come into evidence, as it was deemed too prejudicial.

But I agree that this shooting was an outrage, and it should never have happened. Hopefully, the public outcry (including here in AZ, BTW) will result in better training for cops. That won't help Mr. Shaver, of course, but the money that his family will receive in the civil settlement is all we can do for them at this point.

Posted by: TrivialPursuer at December 13, 2017 11:39 AM (fqUgw)

75 Has the Chicago cop that emptied his mag into the drugged out kid walking down the middle of the street gone to trial? The one in the video Rahm & co. kept under wraps for a couple years?
========

And does Chicago still have that secret police gulag? You know, the one off the books where they throw people in to rot away with no due process, etc. That was a thing about five years ago or so.

Posted by: bicentennialguy at December 13, 2017 11:40 AM (vg8iE)

76 congressman Jordan on a tear right now.

Posted by: mallfly the Peach of Hoboken at December 13, 2017 11:40 AM (ILitO)

77 Nobody was fired the Salt Lake Police when they cuffed the Nurse who was trying to protect a patient.

I think the detective was fired and his supervisor was demoted.

http://tinyurl.com/ycy7z7qw

Posted by: McCool at December 13, 2017 11:40 AM (KvRqW)

78 OK, as the designated hitter for Willow I posted the below. None of you guys had the decency to make a corgi call, dammit. Anyway, OT or not, here is a repeat of what I commented a minute ago on the last thread.

595
Probably the only solution to this mess is to break up the union, but
that would be problematic because the looney left areas are not
contiguous. We would have to relocate a bunch of libs to get them all
together. Perhaps we could cede AZ and NV to CA and move all the NY and
IL libs there, then wall off the whole place. They would probably not
like it and would raise various objections, which is why we have the
Second Amendment. (I used to like AZ, but with two, count 'em, two crazy
Commie Senators they are probably a lost cause.) Another alternative
would be to send them to Peruvia, but then the Peruvians would raise
Cain.

Posted by: Ruthless at December 13, 2017 11:40 AM (fkNSY)

79 You owe it to yourself to listen to the whole talk that LA Speed Check is taken from.

You want to tack this

watch?v=wigZsFypdyI

on the end of you tube's url.

Titled "Author Brian Shul on piloting the SR-71" if you want to search for it directly.

Inspiring and awesome.

Posted by: Fritz (not Fritz) at December 13, 2017 11:40 AM (IIOyJ)

80 I am not sure where I stand with regard to the cops. Sometimes, thank goodness they are there. Others, not so much.

Just mathematically, the more times you get involved with the police, the more likely you are to be shot by the police. They have guns and are authorized to use them.

If you aren't around cops, your chances of being shot by a cop are really small.

My attorney tells me that cops are not there to enforce the law, but rather the peace. They want to end confrontations. If they have to shoot you to get peace, they will do it.

So the issue isn't "well if you haven't done anything wrong," the issue is whether you end up involved with the police.

Posted by: blaster at December 13, 2017 11:40 AM (WonQS)

81 Yay for punk chimp. I feel like I'm about to go apeshit today, although I'll probably stick to grousing. Maybe a grouse should be the morning rant icon.

Posted by: Steve and Cold Bear at December 13, 2017 11:41 AM (/qEW2)

82 Has the Chicago cop that emptied his mag into the drugged out kid walking down the middle of the street gone to trial? The one in the video Rahm & co. kept under wraps for a couple years?
Posted by: BignJames

yes. trial ongoing. States Attorney (hispanic, woman) lost the re-election over this. There was a DOJ investigation into police department - but under obama.

Posted by: runner at December 13, 2017 11:41 AM (QC/4S)

83 Come on CBD, tell us what you REALLY think about cops! (Okay, yet another subject I need to steer clear of.)

Posted by: joncelli, because somebody had to at December 13, 2017 11:42 AM (RD7QR)

84 the leftist schemers seem to always push a bigotry of "us versus them". BLM vs cops, but also they don't want "all lives matter", cuz they are their own "tribe" or "gang".

RICO is intended for the "mob", but now we have all sorts of groups engaged in "racketeering".

Actually that term may not be exactly legally correct ... in that the "privilege" may not be the main activity, but a powerful side benefit. Cops main activity is still policing, but they have leverage if they want to help or harm special friends/enemies.

Some level of tribal helping may be OK (helping a friend's kid get a job interview?) ...but it soon gets out of hand, and anyone not part of some gang gets smashed.

The lawyer/political cabals are maybe the worst. One "can't fight city hall" sometimes means one can't fight "the mob". What then?

We're gonna need a bigger tougher gang.

Posted by: illiniwek at December 13, 2017 11:42 AM (otAqJ)

85 When stopped, remember that cops are also gauging your behavior. Over the last 10 years or so, I think i've gotten 15 warnings and no tickets (for speeding, turning in a no turn intersection, nothing big) because I know how to talk to cops reasonably. I don't deny what I know they saw me do, I express regret, say "well I was't looking at my speedometer, but at that guy over there, but I'm sorry" and I treat them reasonably. They look in the car, it's clean, no empties thrown around, and they usually say "well don't do it again, here's a warning."

I tried to teach my daughter (28 now) that, but she insists on arguing and refusing to say anything. Last year, a cop stopped her while she was parked, looking at a house for rent, but it was night, and he wondered if she was up to something. She wasn't, but she got all pissed and yelled at him and said she was gonna get a lawyer, so he claimed he thought she was intoxicated (she wasn't) and gave her a night in jail. No breath tests, no blood tests, just a "ha ha, you pissed me off, see how you like a night in the drunk tank". This was obvious the next morning when they let her go and didn't even file charges - they knew they had nothing, but still gave her a damn bad night just for acting pissy with them.

So that's what can happen if you get all confrontational when there's really no reason to.

Posted by: Tom Servo at December 13, 2017 11:43 AM (k1TUh)

86 Got a jury in Arizona that says otherwise. Though I am not sure they saw the video of the shooting, but please correct me if I am wrong.

Posted by: Penfold at December 13, 2017 11:25 AM (Fbt5B)

And God knows, juries never get it wrong!

Posted by: Steinle and OJ Simpson juries at December 13, 2017 11:43 AM (ZM2xo)

87 A rant that needed to be written.

For every Micheal Brown/"Hands up don't shoot!" BS situation, there is a very real situation like this one, or Philando Castile.

Posted by: RichieC at December 13, 2017 11:43 AM (N2ODI)

88 ""I have seen out-of-control cops behave exactly this way, even here in my little slice of suburbia. An asshole buzz-cutted iron-pumping cop screwing with some poor soccer mom who is late to pick up her kids from school, or a bunch of idiot drunk teenagers? Wow...real tough. How about you take a little jaunt to Afghanistan and cower in your piss and shit while real men fight real bad guys and still have the time and humanity to care for the weak and the defenseless. But you won't do that, because they don't make nearly the money that you do as a wannabe tough-guy who is just itching to shoot someone, and deep down inside you know that you aren't the real man you want to be...You aren't tough...you're just a bully. And now a murderer.""

A million times this.

Posted by: Berserker-Dragonheads Divison at December 13, 2017 11:43 AM (aMlLZ)

89 And before you get the wrong idea, I know and love some awesome Police Officers...but, in my experience they are far and away the minority of the Cops I have known.

Generally, I find that they are low IQ bullies with personality disorders.

Posted by: garrett at December 13, 2017 11:44 AM (XHDFG)

90 In everything is not awful news, this is a miracle.

http://www.businessinsider.com/baby-vanellope-hope-wilkins-born-with-heart-outside-chest-2017-12

Warning, there is a picture of the baby with the heart outside her chest. It's not too graphic because at least my brain went nope not real that can't happen.

Bless her, bless her family, bless the surgeons.

Posted by: alexthechick - Breathe deeply. Namaste. Prayer-hands. Warrior Pose. at December 13, 2017 11:44 AM (mf5HN)

91 The air speed video is fantastic!

Posted by: Miss Sippi at December 13, 2017 11:44 AM (5fPhA)

92 The cop clearly states "if your hands go to the small of your back or ???, we will shoot you". Then at exactly 4:22 of the video, the guy reaches his hand back to the small of his back when he's supposed to be crawling. Cop shoots instantly. Not guilty.

Posted by: pete at December 13, 2017 11:44 AM (meg+g)

93 77 Nobody was fired the Salt Lake Police when they cuffed the Nurse who was trying to protect a patient.

I think the detective was fired and his supervisor was demoted.

http://tinyurl.com/ycy7z7qw
Posted by: McCool at December 13, 2017 11:40 AM (KvRqW)

He was fired from his side job as an ambulance driver.

Posted by: Patrick From Ohio at December 13, 2017 11:44 AM (dKiJG)

94 I'm not even sure the jury is entirely to blame, as they were not allowed to see all the relevant evidence. For example, the judge ruled that the "You're Fucked" inscription on the gun could not come into evidence, as it was deemed too prejudicial.

The court system is broken.
How the fuck is that "too prejudicial?"
Did he have it on his rifle?
If I, as a citizen in the exact same circumstances, had that on my rifle, would I get a pass?
And I am tired of betcalled a "civilian" vs the police.
Unless they are subject to the UCMJ, THEY ARE CIVILIANS TOO!

Posted by: rickb223 at December 13, 2017 11:44 AM (ftdxp)

95 No breath tests, no blood tests, just a "ha ha, you pissed me off, see how you like a night in the drunk tank". This was obvious the next morning when they let her go and didn't even file charges - they knew they had nothing, but still gave her a damn bad night just for acting pissy with them.

Well there you go. The 99% of cops that should be fired give the other 1% a bad name.

Posted by: Grump928(C) at December 13, 2017 11:45 AM (QQ+il)

96 Generally, I find that they are low IQ bullies with personality disorders.

==

I find this more pronounced in the 'burbs

Posted by: runner at December 13, 2017 11:45 AM (QC/4S)

97 I am sure all of those jurors felt really safe voting guilty when their names and addresses were available to the rest of the police force. I am sure they would have been kept safe by the blue line, despite convicting a member of that very brotherhood.

Posted by: Nick in Tallahassee at December 13, 2017 11:45 AM (wGbBR)

98 At this late date in America's history, the fact that even one, let alone millions, of people refuse to see that the Democrat party stands for hatred of this great country and actively, daily seek its downfall is simply beyond comprehension.

Posted by: Eli Cash at December 13, 2017 11:46 AM (a+WIL)

99 Wow. Righteous rant, CBD.

Posted by: rickl at December 13, 2017 11:46 AM (xjiRE)

100 I saw that video a few weeks ago and that was indeed straight up murder. Enraging.

I don't see police abuse as a Right vs Left issue.

Maybe not everything needs to go down that fault line.

Posted by: Maritime at December 13, 2017 11:46 AM (G/kZc)

101 Generally, I find that they are low IQ bullies with personality disorders.

Posted by: garrett at December 13, 2017 11:44 AM (XHDFG)

Some park rangers didn't qualify to be cops.

Posted by: BignJames at December 13, 2017 11:47 AM (1Oy/Q)

102 >>deep down inside you know that you aren't the real man you want to be...You aren't tough...you're just a bully. And now a murderer.

And probably a cuckold.

Posted by: Zod at December 13, 2017 11:47 AM (Bdeb0)

103 The jury system was based on the idea of an informed citizenry. Now that we live in an Idiocracy, the jury system no longer works. Sad.

Posted by: Ruthless at December 13, 2017 11:47 AM (fkNSY)

104 >>I find this more pronounced in the 'burbs

Oh, God...small town cops that are locals?

Loads of fun, those guys.

Posted by: garrett at December 13, 2017 11:48 AM (XHDFG)

105 Zod was called for jury duty on January 3. Skulls will roll.

Posted by: Zod at December 13, 2017 11:48 AM (Bdeb0)

106 >>Bless her, bless her family, bless the surgeons.

Yes!!! It is amazing what the surgeons and other medical staff did, and you just know that lil' sweetie has some serious fight in her.

Posted by: Lizzy at December 13, 2017 11:48 AM (W+vEI)

107 Well, lawful orders. The practical problem is that if you don't comply with an unlawful order they will MAKE you comply with the unlawful order.

Posted by: Insomniac - Nobody in Particular at December 13, 2017 11:38 AM (NWiLs)

I have said this before and I will say it again - the side of the road is no place to have an argument. A well-lighted courtroom is much better over all.

Posted by: *Mikey NTH - Holiday Magic! Get a Face-Plant Hillary doll from the Outrage Outlet! at December 13, 2017 11:48 AM (hLRSq)

108 It's impossible to know what actually happened based on one camera angle

Posted by: hogmartin

he shot an unarmed man in the back. that's what actually happened. I know compartmentalizing has been popular since the Clinton's, but he shot an unarmed man in the back.

Posted by: x at December 13, 2017 11:48 AM (nFwvY)

109 I am sure all of those jurors felt really safe voting guilty when their names and addresses were available to the rest of the police force. I am sure they would have been kept safe by the blue line, despite convicting a member of that very brotherhood.
Posted by: Nick in Tallahassee

________

A lot of this is like the OJ trial. Juries now look to themselves as a way to send a message. Like the San Fran illegal immigrant shooting

Probably a handful on the jury hated Black Lives Matter and had a "blue line" mentality and wanted to use the opportunity to flip the bird, regardless of the actual case involved.

Posted by: Maritime at December 13, 2017 11:49 AM (G/kZc)

110 Zod was called for jury duty on January 3. Skulls will roll.

Remember, you are the decider of both fact and law when you sit on a jury.

Posted by: Grump928(C) at December 13, 2017 11:49 AM (QQ+il)

111 Just one of these type incidents are one too many but I do believe that we have moved forward in preventing them or prosecuting them. We no longer are in the days of stop or I'll shoot, Interrogations with phone books and the unbreakable code of silence. Technology has caused police wrongdoing to be brought out in the open whereas it was buried in the past. That's why I think the perception is that it's worse.

Posted by: Alabaster Jones at December 13, 2017 11:49 AM (2DOZq)

112 When you militarize your civil police, expect your civil police to act militarized.

Posted by: RioBravo at December 13, 2017 11:49 AM (5NMZN)

113 The cop clearly states "if your hands go to the small of your back or ???, we will shoot you". Then at exactly 4:22 of the video, the guy reaches his hand back to the small of his back when he's supposed to be crawling. Cop shoots instantly. Not guilty.
Posted by: pete at December 13, 2017 11:44 AM (meg+g)

I saw someone say that the cops didn't or could not know if a person was in another room hiding, that's why they wanted him to crawl towards them because his partner could get caught in a cross fire.

Posted by: Patrick From Ohio at December 13, 2017 11:49 AM (dKiJG)

114
I had a gun drawn on me during a field trip for minerals during College, the cops got a call about about a gang fight. I had a Pick Ax and my Friend had a shovel I froze so did my friend. Our Professor came running with her hands up saying we were from the college doing a field trip on Glaciers.

Rival Eskimo gang fight?

Posted by: Deplorable Male Logic at December 13, 2017 11:50 AM (lKyWE)

115 Posted by: pete at December 13, 2017 11:44 AM (meg+g)

Um, why not search the guy when he's spread-eagled on the ground? There are two officers there. One covers, the other searches. Why the B.S. instructions with which no one could comply, especially under stressful circumstances?

I used to be a prosecutor. I've seen this stuff, though not with the same horrific results, before.

It was an execution because someone was having a bad day or wanted the thrill of squeezing off a few rounds and becoming a "hero."

Posted by: RS at December 13, 2017 11:50 AM (CNQqJ)

116 ANYTHING you say to the police can be used against you, even for a minor violation.

Take the typical scenario: Cop pulls you over for alleged speeding and asks, "Do you know how fast you were going?" Most people will come up with some answer, which is usually over the limit, at least by a little bit, trying to minimize the damage or something. But now the cop has your admission, even if it was over the limit by a few mph, which he can tell the prosecutor and/or your admission was caught on the dashcam.

Also if a cop pulls you over and says, "Where are you coming from tonight?" And you say "a bar," you can expect to have a bad night.

So that's why you don't want to answer questions. Certainly provide driver's license, insurance card, and registration though. And in NJ, if a cop orders you out of the car, you have to get out, even if you think there is no reason.

Posted by: Iasonas at December 13, 2017 11:50 AM (MI8aK)

117 Zod, as you are not an idiot, you will be tossed from consideration for a jury. That is another reason why the system doesn't work, since both prosecution and defense winnow down the pool to make sure those who end up in the jury box are the dullest members of the herd, the ones the wolves used to pick off.

Posted by: Ruthless at December 13, 2017 11:50 AM (fkNSY)

118 Jordan Peterson has a low opinion of chimps.

Posted by: BourbonChicken at December 13, 2017 11:51 AM (rnAwa)

119 I agree with CBD. Growing up, I was raised to trust the police. Officer Friendly was the guy who would always help you, no matter what.

Times have changed, and yeah there are quite a few good police out there though I think they are starting to become a minority. I see police here more interested in asserting their authority rather than actually helping the community.

Maybe the first time it really kind of crystallized for me was watching the coverage of the Columbine shooting. I saw cops standing outside while the shooters were inside having their way. Why not go in? The story at the time was what we hear all the time now: Officer Safety. What gets galling is if I were willing and able to risk my own life to go in there and try to stop those killers from hurting my daughter, the police would prevent me.

It is a bad place to be when institutions that are supposed to be trustworthy...aren't.

Posted by: WitchDoktor, AKA VA GOP Sucks at December 13, 2017 11:51 AM (eytER)

120
I'll probably stick to grousing. Maybe a grouse should be the morning rant icon.
Posted by: Steve and Cold Bear at December 13, 2017 11:41 AM

Are grouses (grouse? greese?) pissed off all the time?

Posted by: Bertram Cabot, Jr. at December 13, 2017 11:51 AM (IqV8l)

121
Hey hey ho ho
No Conservatives in the Senate! NO!

Posted by: Mitch McLiberal and the GOP Estabs at December 13, 2017 11:51 AM (r+sAi)

122 I've always respected the police and i usually give them the benefit of the doubt in shootings, but speaking as someone whose uncle and cousin (his son) were big city cops, I have to tell you that there must be something wrong with the training modern cops receive. Also, they type of person modern policing attracts.
I live in the northeast and most cops here make big bucks. They live lifestyles that cops of another era could never have imagined and they want to keep on LIVING those lifestyles--that is they don't want to take risks, so they tend to be trigger-happy. They also tend to me high-strung and militaristic ( and not in a good way). Many spend hours in a gym and some take steroids and they prance and preen around with their $50 haircuts looking for ANY sign of disrespect. They also lack the social skills that those old Irish cops possessed ---ie the ability to diffuse a potentially explosive situation with their words and wit. They yell and scream and instantly go into tough cop mode for the slightest infraction which usually sends into panic everyone around them--including the person they are focused on. Add to all this an "Us vs. Them" mentality and it's a recipe for misunderstanding and confusion that can end up with someone badly hurt or dead.

Posted by: JoeF. at December 13, 2017 11:51 AM (7uYFy)

123 117. 100% TRUE. No trial attorney wants intelligent folks on the jury.

Posted by: Nick in Tallahassee at December 13, 2017 11:52 AM (wGbBR)

124 Then and now

https://preview.tinyurl.com/ycv7bcff

Posted by: Under Fire-Moldova Curious at December 13, 2017 11:52 AM (r9UYA)

125 Juries are for deciding facts, the judge decides the law (i.e. what comes into evidence, what objections are allowed, etc.)

Posted by: Iasonas at December 13, 2017 11:52 AM (MI8aK)

126 Unless, it's a bench trial, then the judges sits as finder of fact and law.

Posted by: Iasonas at December 13, 2017 11:52 AM (MI8aK)

127 AP tweet

BREAKING AP sources say House Senate leaders reach agreement in principle on sweeping tax package

Posted by: JackStraw at December 13, 2017 11:52 AM (/tuJf)

128 It's shit like this why a) we need to revisit the whole regime of qualified immunity and b) cops need to be personally on the hook, financially speaking, for the damages they cause.

Posted by: Insomniac - Nobody in Particular at December 13, 2017 11:53 AM (NWiLs)

129
"Some years back, I pulled into an immigration check point in the SW. I had my U.S. passport. I was in a single cab pick-up with hiking stuff in the bed. But, the border patrol was bored and demanded a search of my vehicle.

I refused as I was in the U.S. and I had not been to Mexico. The agent threatened me with detention until a state trooper could arrive with a drug sniffing dog. I said, "Fine. Then I'm under arrest and you will be sued." I also handed her my wallet law license registration.

Surprise! I was told "Have a nice day" and released.

Know your rights. Assert your rights. That's the answer.
Posted by: RS at December 13, 2017 11:38 AM (CNQqJ)"

I've been through those checkpoints. I remember one time I was driving, with my soon to be wife in the front seat and another couple in the back seat, about 90 miles out of El Paso, and we went through a checkpoint be we were all clean cut and nice looking, so they just waved us on through after a quick glance. I had the window open, and in line behind me was a van with some shaggy haired bearded guy driving it, and I remember as I started to pull away, before he had even pulled up, hearing the agent yell out to his buddy (in a full texas drawl, which made it kinda funny) "Hey Boone! We're gonna have to run the perro on this one!!!"

And that's just how it works.

Posted by: Tom Servo at December 13, 2017 11:53 AM (k1TUh)

130 Rival Eskimo gang fight?
Posted by: Deplorable Male Logic at December 13, 2017 11:50 AM (lKyWE)

Cincinnati, they have all kinds of minerals that were left behind by the glaciers and you can see the layers once you dig into the side of a hill.

Posted by: Patrick From Ohio at December 13, 2017 11:53 AM (dKiJG)

131 Well call me kooky, but if I was in that dead dudes family, and I got a shitload of cash from a civil suit, I would hire a death squad and kill every motherfucker that was there that night.

Posted by: Berserker-Dragonheads Divison at December 13, 2017 11:53 AM (aMlLZ)

132 Under Fire, didn't make it to Moldova when I was travelling to that general area a lot, but depending on the season, it is probably pretty nice. Wine country. Economically and socially not as ravaged as Romania, I think (imagine being part of the USSR *protecting you* from worse degradation).

Of course you'll want to avoid the Trans-Dnistrian area - unless things have dramatically changed and been cleaned up. Europe's most obscure conflict, been quiet for a long time, but dunno if that's because solved, or hiatus. Obviously I haven't kept up. But colleagues who went there back in the 90s, and wine people from there more recently, painted a pretty decent picture, depending on your tastes and interests.

Posted by: rhomboid at December 13, 2017 11:53 AM (QDnY+)

133 A couple years ago when this BLM stuff started, I bought a big blue sticker for my car that said Blue Lives Matter. I never put it on because I was advised by several people, including the person at the police station desk, that it would probably incite damage to my car. That is an indication of how weird things have become.

Posted by: Ruthless at December 13, 2017 11:53 AM (fkNSY)

134 >>And in NJ, if a cop orders you out of the car, you have to get out, even if you think there is no reason.

And if they Invite you to get out of the car, you are open to Search and Seizure under Tacit Consent.

Make sure they Order you out and make them document that order on your ticket before you comply.

Again, no reason to do it in any way but a Polite one.

Posted by: garrett at December 13, 2017 11:54 AM (XHDFG)

135 Juries are for deciding facts, the judge decides the law (i.e. what comes into evidence, what objections are allowed, etc.)

If you are on a jury, and you believe the law unjust, you may acquit even if the defendant is admittedly guilty. That is the entire intent of having a jury of your peers.

Posted by: Grump928(C) at December 13, 2017 11:54 AM (QQ+il)

136 105 Zod was called for jury duty on January 3. Skulls will roll.
Posted by: Zod at December 13, 2017 11:48 AM (Bdeb0)

Remember, no matter what the matter at trial the answer is the death penalty. Just because.

Posted by: joncelli, because somebody had to at December 13, 2017 11:54 AM (RD7QR)

137 BREAKING AP sources say House Senate leaders reach agreement in principle on sweeping tax package
Posted by: JackStraw at December 13, 2017 11:52 AM (/tuJf)

Sweeping? Like with a broom?

(hic)

Posted by: Hillary at December 13, 2017 11:54 AM (7uYFy)

138 he shot an unarmed man in the back. that's what actually happened. I know compartmentalizing has been popular since the Clinton's, but he shot an unarmed man in the back.
Posted by: x at December 13, 2017 11:48 AM (nFwvY)

Try to keep up.

I'm not Patterico.

Posted by: hogmartin at December 13, 2017 11:54 AM (y87Qq)

139 94 If I, as a citizen in the exact same circumstances, had that on my rifle, would I get a pass?
And I am tired of betcalled a "civilian" vs the police.
Unless they are subject to the UCMJ, THEY ARE CIVILIANS TOO!

Posted by: rickb223 at December 13, 2017 11:44 AM (ftdxp)

If I as a CWP holder shot an unarmed person because I *thought* he could be reaching for a weapon then I would go to prison. I am, therefore, effectively held to a higher standard than an LEO which is peculiar.

Amen to the "police vs. civilian" BS dichotomy. I find "LEO/non-LEO" far more accurate.

Posted by: Big McLargehuge Mk I at December 13, 2017 11:55 AM (u9OP6)

140 Posted by: JoeF. at December 13, 2017 11:51 AM (7uYFy)

Criminals have changed also.

Posted by: Alabaster Jones at December 13, 2017 11:55 AM (2DOZq)

141

I always fully comply with those nice FBI guys. See how well it's worked out for me?....

*hic*

Posted by: Hillary Clinton at December 13, 2017 11:55 AM (mPeei)

142 >>117 Zod, as you are not an idiot, you will be tossed from consideration for a jury. Posted by: Ruthless at December 13, 2017 11:50 AM (fkNSY)

I don't know you, and you don't know I'm not an idiot! How dare you, sir?

Good day to you.

Posted by: Zod at December 13, 2017 11:56 AM (Bdeb0)

143 Posted by: garrett at December 13, 2017 11:54 AM (XHDFG)

That's not the law in NJ.
They can order you out of the car for safety reasons. They can pat you down for safety reasons. Beyond that, they need probable cause or a warrant.

There are a lot of exceptions to the warrant requirement which most people don't realize.

Posted by: Iasonas at December 13, 2017 11:56 AM (MI8aK)

144 As I said back on the 10th, that cop would be perfect to lead the Mueller pre-dawn raids so as to avoid those messy trials. He'd fit in with the Wisconsin "John Doe" raids too.

Now we know that the police will play "Simon Says" and you get to play for your life.

This would be a good case for the Feds to step in as they did all during the Obama years but I expect that will not happen. Oh, and Patterico's been a fuck-head for many years.

Posted by: geoffb at December 13, 2017 11:56 AM (zOpu5)

145 Asians sure seem to be fond of their glass skywalk thingies. Maybe this will cure them of that.

Posted by: Steve and Cold Bear at December 13, 2017 11:56 AM (/qEW2)

146 132 Under Fire, didn't make it to Moldova when I was travelling to that general area a lot, but depending on the season, it is probably pretty nice.

Thanks for the feedback. Seriously considering becoming an ex-pat.

Posted by: Under Fire-Moldova Curious at December 13, 2017 11:57 AM (r9UYA)

147 Criminals have changed also.
Posted by: Alabaster Jones at December 13, 2017 11:55 AM (2DOZq)

Agreed. Most don't know how to handle themselves when they interact with the police. It should always be "Yes sir/No, sir."

Posted by: Hillary at December 13, 2017 11:57 AM (7uYFy)

148 With Zod's reputation for violence, I would be a fool to suggest that Zod is an idiot. And good day to you as well, sir.

Posted by: Ruthless at December 13, 2017 11:57 AM (fkNSY)

149
100% TRUE. No trial attorney wants intelligent folks on the jury.
Posted by: Nick in Tallahassee

If you want to be on the jury, dare to be stupid.

Posted by: Bertram Cabot, Jr. at December 13, 2017 11:57 AM (IqV8l)

150 Posted by: Grump928(C) at December 13, 2017 11:54 AM (QQ+il)

Well, I think you're thinking about jury nullification. But if the judge finds out you were researching the law on your own, or that you considered testimony that the judge ruled stricken, then you're going to have a bad day.

Posted by: Iasonas at December 13, 2017 11:57 AM (MI8aK)

151 122 I've always respected the police and i usually give them the benefit of the doubt in shootings, but speaking as someone whose uncle and cousin (his son) were big city cops, I have to tell you that there must be something wrong with the training modern cops receive. Also, they type of person modern policing attracts.

They're trained to believe a) they're on a war footing with their fellow citizens, b) everybody is trying to kill them, and c) everybody has John Wick armament and skillz.

Posted by: Insomniac - Nobody in Particular at December 13, 2017 11:57 AM (NWiLs)

152 Never had a gun pulled on me, for which I am thankful. Never really had a bad run-in with the fuzz in general, either.

My dad did, with my youngest brother in the car, unfortunately. Youngest brother is now antifa. :^/

Posted by: boulder terlit hobo at December 13, 2017 11:57 AM (6FqZa)

153 >>That's not the law in NJ.

I haven't been on the E. Coast for 20 years so I no longer know which States have the Tacit Consent Laws on the books.

But, this reminds me of a really important lesson :
KNOW YOUR LOCAL LAWS.

Posted by: garrett at December 13, 2017 11:58 AM (XHDFG)

154 147
132 Under Fire, didn't make it to Moldova when I was travelling to that general area a lot, but depending on the season, it is probably pretty nice.

Thanks for the feedback. Seriously considering becoming an ex-pat.
Posted by: Under Fire-Moldova Curious at December 13, 2017 11:57 AM (r9UYA)

Please carefully consider the ex-pat thing.... it is often not a great situation...

Posted by: kraken at December 13, 2017 11:58 AM (zSVEm)

155 >>136 105 Zod was called for jury duty on January 3. Skulls will roll. Posted by: Zod at December 13, 2017 11:48 AM (Bdeb0)

Remember, no matter what the matter at trial the answer is the death penalty. Just because.
Posted by: joncelli, because somebody had to at December 13, 2017 11:54 AM (RD7QR)

"Wait...so, you mean to say you 'feared for your life?' You are a weakling, and you have no honor. Execute the defendant, Judge, and do it NOW, or I will do it for you."

Posted by: Zod at December 13, 2017 11:58 AM (Bdeb0)

156 Well, I think you're thinking about jury nullification. But if the judge finds out you were researching the law on your own, or that you considered testimony that the judge ruled stricken, then you're going to have a bad day.

Simply vote for acquittal.

Posted by: Grump928(C) at December 13, 2017 11:58 AM (QQ+il)

157 "The cop clearly states "if your hands go to the small of your back or ???, we will shoot you". Then at exactly 4:22 of the video, the guy reaches his hand back to the small of his back when he's supposed to be crawling. Cop shoots instantly. Not guilty. "

I must have missed the part of the Constitution that allows a death sentence to be passed by a verbal order of a police officer. Last I checked, capital punishment required due process. Some cocksucking little fascist (look at this picture of this fucking tough guy. He's fuckin pajama boy with a "you're fucked" dustcover on an AR he has no business fucking carrying.)

If a cop shoots, he better goddamn well be shooting someone who has a weapon in his hand. Not a squirt gun. Not a wallet. Not a furtive movement.

Would this standard lead to more dead cops? Maybe. But guess what: that's their fucking job. To catch bullets and blades and deal with scum. That comes with risk. Risk they need to accept as their job.

If the cops are going to be allowed to rip off 5 or 6 rifle rounds into anyone who's hands brush their beltline, then we don't have peace officers, we have a fucking Third World death squad, and there's no need to give them six figure pensions, we can just hand out rusty AKs and let them fund themselves with bribes like any other banana republic.

You know why people used to teach their kids to respect cops? Because cops used to go out on the street armed with a revolver and armored with a necktie, in a time where there was twice as much crime as there is now. Now they get body armor and military weaponry, and crime is lower than ever, but they act like they're in a war zone. Actually, they act worse then that. If that video had come from a hallway in Afghanistan, the solider who murdered an unarmed man would have been court martialed, and found guilty.

Posted by: Viking1865 at December 13, 2017 11:58 AM (uUj9/)

158 drugged out kid walking down the middle of the street gone to trial?

He was running - with a knife.

Posted by: DaveA at December 13, 2017 11:59 AM (FhXTo)

159 Speaking of cops. Do not ever talk to a member of DFCS, CASA, CPS, or any child abuse worker. Make them show you a warrant. Tell them to get off your property. Show your kids through a window by the door if you can. Immediately begin filming everything and contact a lawyer afterwards.

A sneaky loophole in most states is that these workers are not listed and during a divorce or custody hearing may be slipped as a supervisor for your children and claim that they are working independent. No! They cannot wear two hats. They also need probable cause. These people have police like powers and are trained to look for child abuse and will find it where none exists.

They claim they don't list their workers publicly because of safety reasons which is bullshit. These totalitarians make police look tame when it comes to abuse of power.

Posted by: Monk at December 13, 2017 11:59 AM (g4lFK)

160 It's your duty as a citizen to resist unjust laws.

Posted by: Grump928(C) at December 13, 2017 11:59 AM (QQ+il)

161 >>Never had a gun pulled on m

It's a gas, man.

Definitely changes your day.

Posted by: garrett at December 13, 2017 11:59 AM (XHDFG)

162 I have a cousin who was a bully when he was a kid - I was one of the kids who suffered from his bullying,he didn't let relatives off the hook. He grew up to be a shitty adult and he became a big city cop. He is now retired. I don't know if he would go as far as the asshole in this video, but I'd bet money he enjoyed abusing his power.

Most cops are decent people. Many cops have been unfairly accused by BLM. But a number of them are creeps and bullies.

It's like priests and teachers - 99% of them are not child molesters, but if you are a child molester you are going to want an occupation where you have easy access to kids, like (traditionally) joining the priesthood or becoming a teacher.

99% of cops are not sadists - but if you are, it's a profession where your chances of getting away with being a sadist are higher than if you're, say, a CPA.

A couple of months ago, someone here posted a link to a horrifying video of cops who kept tazing a 16 year old kids testicles until he died - perhaps of shock. The kid was drunk and a bit unruly and so they friggin' tortured him to "teach him a lesson." Don't know what happened with those cops either.

But, as in this case in Mesa, the victim was white so the media doesn't care.

Posted by: Donna and V. (sans ampersands at the present time) at December 13, 2017 11:59 AM (ZM2xo)

163 and now 'Mr Gutierrez" is talking about the women who accused Trump again.

Posted by: mallfly the Peach of Hoboken at December 13, 2017 11:59 AM (ILitO)

164 McCarthy is now backpedalling on his early article about the texts claiming he only saw a couple that related to personal views but has now seen others that show that it affected their actions.

No shit, Andy.

Posted by: JackStraw at December 13, 2017 11:59 AM (/tuJf)

165 >>I bought a big blue sticker for my car that said Blue Lives Matter.

Had a college friend whose dad was a cop. Noticed a little sticker on his car's back windshield and asked what it was for - it identified him as being family of a cop. After that I noticed them on a lot of cars. Think it was a MA or New England thing, as I don;t recall seeing them in others states in which I've lived.

Posted by: Lizzy at December 13, 2017 11:59 AM (W+vEI)

166 I always fully comply with those nice FBI guys. See how well it's worked out for me?....

*hic*

Posted by: Hillary Clinton at December 13, 2017 11:55 AM (mPeei)

Peter Strzok: I love you!!!! You're the bestest ever!!!!

Posted by: TheQuietMan at December 13, 2017 11:59 AM (493sH)

167 They're trained to believe a) they're on a war footing with their fellow citizens, b) everybody is trying to kill them, and c) everybody has John Wick armament and skillz.
Posted by: Insomniac - Nobody in Particular at December 13, 2017 11:57 AM (NWiLs)

Yes. And on top of this--in a weird twisted way--they feel like they are victims.
Who make $125K a year......

Posted by: Hillary at December 13, 2017 12:00 PM (7uYFy)

168 Sometimes motor vehicle operators in Virginia who hold concealed carry permits and who have a concealed weapon in the glove compartment and prudently acknowledge the fact will be merely given a warning by the constabulary when pulled over.

It has happened.

Posted by: Zod at December 13, 2017 12:00 PM (Bdeb0)

169 And if they Invite you to get out of the car, you are open to Search and Seizure under Tacit Consent.

==

how would that sound ? "please step get out of the vehicle" - is that an invite ? or an order ?

Posted by: runner at December 13, 2017 12:00 PM (QC/4S)

170 will result in better training for cops.

If you shoot a guy after he's on the ground you fucked up.

Posted by: DaveA at December 13, 2017 12:00 PM (FhXTo)

171 66
Hand over your License and the Contact info for a Lawyer you have on retainer and Zip It.
Posted by: garrett at December 13, 2017 11:32 AM

How many average Joes have a lawyer on constant retainer?
Posted by: Bertram Cabot, Jr. at December 13, 2017 11:37 AM (IqV8l)

And how much does that cost anyway?

Posted by: rickl at December 13, 2017 12:00 PM (xjiRE)

172 Titled "Author Brian Shul on piloting the SR-71" if you want to search for it directly.

Inspiring and awesome.

Shul's book "Sled Driver" is terrific if you can get your hands on a copy.

Posted by: Ian S. at December 13, 2017 12:00 PM (3J/LN)

173 I have to tell you that there must be something wrong with the training modern cops receive. Also, they type of person modern policing attracts.

They're trained to believe a) they're on a war footing with their fellow citizens, b) everybody is trying to kill them,

I think this happens not during training, which is likely extreme PC / white-privilege / SJW; but after the first two weeks on the job hearing the first dozen-or-so 'dindu nuffins' apologetics.

What you are seeing from these cops is the breakdown of cognitive dissonance and its restructuring by total cynicism, frustration, and anger.

Posted by: boulder terlit hobo at December 13, 2017 12:00 PM (6FqZa)

174 I know this isn't universal, probably not even a plurality, but it seems that when it comes to positions of control over the public, whether it be LEOs, politicians, bureaucrats or just members of HOA boards, people who would actually want that position probably shouldn't have it.

Posted by: Random ~~Lurker~~ Commenter at December 13, 2017 12:00 PM (dab45)

175 153
Never had a gun pulled on me, for which I am thankful. Never really had a bad run-in with the fuzz in general, either.

My dad did, with my youngest brother in the car, unfortunately. Youngest brother is now antifa. :^/
Posted by: boulder terlit hobo at December 13, 2017 11:57 AM (6FqZa)

I suspect most here never have either... nor been detained or arrested... which gives a person a bit of a different perspective on matters.

Posted by: kraken at December 13, 2017 12:00 PM (zSVEm)

176
So Albamans have decided that underage dating is worse than infanticide?

The evil of two lessers.

Posted by: Bertram Cabot, Jr. at December 13, 2017 12:00 PM (IqV8l)

177 The biggest gripe I have about cops responding to disturbances is how LITTLE they know about the actual law! You are right that they are there to keep the peace, and they will work to establish peace and quiet - but then the people involved will start asking questions about who can do what, and I have heard cops say some of the most astounding and ridiculous things to people, just making up what they think the law is rather than saying they don't know. This is especially true whenever it comes to civil disputes - they don't know any more, and often know less than the average joe on the street.

Posted by: Tom Servo at December 13, 2017 12:01 PM (k1TUh)

178 >> "The cop clearly states "if your hands go to the small of your back or ???, we will shoot you".

Which flies in the face of every Cop interaction anyone has ever seen.

It's become reflex for a suspect to put there hands EXACTLY where the Cop ordered him not to.

'Hands behind your back!'

Posted by: garrett at December 13, 2017 12:01 PM (XHDFG)

179 So Albamans have decided that underage dating is worse than infanticide? The mind boggles.

**************************

I thought Moore had it in the bag because I assumed Alabamans would see right through the media lies and hit jobs to put Moore in. Then i talked to my friend from down south who is a major Trump supporter and he said he wouldn't have voted for Moore because he's a pervert.

Well now. And that is why we Northerners will always be better than you, because no matter what, you'll never be able to fool us into voting for a Republican the way we can fool you silly lot into voting for a democrat.

*sips quad venti half caf breve no foam with whip two splenda stirred skinny three pump peppermint mocha latte and feeling quite smug with my New Yorker self*

Posted by: Froderick Wonkensteen at December 13, 2017 12:01 PM (+dsLj)

180 USA Today Calls Trump Unfit To Clean Obama's Toilets In Scathing Editorial

USA Today is unfit to line a birdcage or wipe your ass with.

Posted by: TheQuietMan at December 13, 2017 12:01 PM (493sH)

181 and now 'Mr Gutierrez" is talking about the women who accused Trump again.
Posted by: mallfly the Peach of Hoboken at December 13, 2017 11:59 AM (ILitO)

It's the same old discredited shit that failed before the election, but hey, Schumer must feel like he's holding the winning hand, so why not try it again?

Posted by: JoeF. at December 13, 2017 12:02 PM (7uYFy)

182 Gutierrez-grope grope grope...

Posted by: Under Fire-Moldova Curious at December 13, 2017 12:02 PM (r9UYA)

183 rickl : I've seen lower-middle class folk in gulf coast Texas use legal services. They pay maybe fifty bucks a month in case they need a lawyer. They often do because so many businesses and hucksters prey upon the lower-middle class.

Posted by: boulder terlit hobo at December 13, 2017 12:02 PM (6FqZa)

184 The biggest gripe I have about cops responding to disturbances is how LITTLE they know about the actual law! You are right that they are there to keep the peace, and they will work to establish peace and quiet - but then the people involved will start asking questions about who can do what, and I have heard cops say some of the most astounding and ridiculous things to people, just making up what they think the law is rather than saying they don't know. This is especially true whenever it comes to civil disputes - they don't know any more, and often know less than the average joe on the street.

One way to have some "fun" (and I mean that figuratively...it ain't fun) is to openly carry in Hampton Roads, VA.

Totally 100% legal to do. And cops will act like you're the biggest criminal in the world.

Posted by: WitchDoktor, AKA VA GOP Sucks at December 13, 2017 12:03 PM (eytER)

185 When detained by LEO, be Very careful, deliberate, slow in movements, and Polite...

Posted by: kraken at December 13, 2017 12:03 PM (zSVEm)

186 How many average Joes have a lawyer on constant retainer?
Posted by: Bertram Cabot, Jr. at December 13, 2017 11:37 AM (IqV8l)

And how much does that cost anyway?

Posted by: rickl at December 13, 2017 12:00 PM (xjiRE)

=========

My rate was always around $10,000.

Posted by: Perry Mason at December 13, 2017 12:03 PM (vg8iE)

187 USA Today is unfit to line a birdcage or wipe your ass with.
Posted by: TheQuietMan at December 13, 2017 12:01 PM (493sH)

USA Today is garbage. They bought all the (already mostly liberal) newspapers in NJ and turned them into unreadable daily hate -Trump screed sheets....

Posted by: JoeF. at December 13, 2017 12:04 PM (7uYFy)

188 It's also a good idea not to have a Fuck the Pigs bumper sticker on your car.

Posted by: Ruthless at December 13, 2017 12:04 PM (fkNSY)

189 Could not possibly agree any more with the rant about the murder of Daniel Shaver, especially this part.

Civilian lives are more important than cop lives. Sorry, but that's the reality.

This needs saying more often. It is, ostensibly, what they signed up for; to protect and serve, yet people scream and rave if you point this out.

Shaver's murderer might escape justice here on Earth for a time, but no one escapes the justice of God.

Posted by: Kinley Ardal at December 13, 2017 12:04 PM (6JL3d)

190 "And does Chicago still have that secret police gulag? You know, the one off the books where they throw people in to rot away with no due process, etc. That was a thing about five years ago or so."

Oh, yes, the one covered so extensively in the Guardian. Information on it came from the lawyers for some proto-antifa types who planned to plant some bombs.

That secret gulag? It houses the office for reclaiming stolen property. The detention without due process? A few hours in a holding cell.

There are quite a few scumbags in the Chicago PD, but that story was BS from top to bottom. Keep in mind there's an "Innocence Project" in Chicago that has suborned perjury and gotten innocent people thrown into prison in order to get convicted murderers off. The lawyers who pushed this crap push that crap as well.

Lots of people 'round here need to read up on misleading vividness.

Also, here's another take on the Mesa case, LUN.

Posted by: Rob Crawford at December 13, 2017 12:05 PM (pKqmv)

191 "The fact is that policing in America is broken"

Right on, brother. I've been worried since police switched from revolvers to semi-automatic handguns.

Not just rogue cops, but the pressures of every decision being second guessed by a grandstanding activist or politician makes policing harder.

Posted by: Locke Common at December 13, 2017 12:05 PM (Uwwns)

192 Posted by: Viking1865 at December 13, 2017 11:58 AM (uUj9/)

Yep.

Let's not forget the cops who stand and watch when conservatives are beaten by antifa thugs. Yeah, I realize that they are ordered to stand down. What if one didn't and came to the aid of a guy getting his head bashed in? If he was canned and challenged it and it was on vid, he's have a pretty good case.

Posted by: Donna and V. (sans ampersands at the present time) at December 13, 2017 12:05 PM (ZM2xo)

193 "I suspect most here never have either... nor been detained or arrested... which gives a person a bit of a different perspective on matters."

I got detained and arrested once, and I couldn't say I didn't deserve it because I was on 6th street, and when the cop was trying to see if I was too drunk to walk home I threw up right in front of him. Not my best moment. At least they let me go after 4 hours when someone came to pick me up, and never filed anything formal.

Posted by: Tom Servo at December 13, 2017 12:05 PM (k1TUh)

194 It's also a good idea not to have a Fuck the Pigs bumper sticker on your car.

Eww. Haram.

Posted by: Akayed Ullah at December 13, 2017 12:05 PM (6FqZa)

195 >>My rate was always around $10,000.

Posted by: Perry Mason at December 13, 2017 12:03 PM (vg8iE)

Yeah. Those steak dinners are not going to pay for themselves.

Posted by: The Drake at December 13, 2017 12:05 PM (r9UYA)

196
My rate was always around $10,000.
Posted by: Perry Mason

And that was in 1960!

Posted by: Bertram Cabot, Jr. at December 13, 2017 12:05 PM (IqV8l)

197

Two hookers standing on a street corner when a cop car speeds by, lights flashing, siren blaring. First hooker asks the second one, "have you ever been picked up by the fuzz before?" Second hooker replies,, "no,, but Al Franken slung me around by the tit's a couple of times..."

*hic*

Posted by: Hillary Clinton at December 13, 2017 12:06 PM (mPeei)

198 And does Chicago still have that secret police gulag?

Keeping gang-bangers updated tactically is crucial to the further destruction of the city.

Posted by: DaveA at December 13, 2017 12:06 PM (FhXTo)

199
"The cop clearly states "if your hands go to the small of your back or ???, we will shoot you".

And if the guy is drunk and scared he might have heard "put your hands in the small of your back or we'll shoot you."

Posted by: Deplorable Male Logic at December 13, 2017 12:06 PM (lKyWE)

200 If the cops are going to be allowed to rip off 5 or 6 rifle rounds into anyone who's hands brush their beltline, then we don't have peace officers, we have a fucking Third World death squad, and there's no need to give them six figure pensions, we can just hand out rusty AKs and let them fund themselves with bribes like any other banana republic.

You know why people used to teach their kids to respect cops? Because cops used to go out on the street armed with a revolver and armored with a necktie, in a time where there was twice as much crime as there is now. Now they get body armor and military weaponry, and crime is lower than ever, but they act like they're in a war zone. Actually, they act worse then that. If that video had come from a hallway in Afghanistan, the solider who murdered an unarmed man would have been court martialed, and found guilty.

Posted by: Viking1865 at December 13, 2017 11:58 AM (uUj9/)

Spot..fucking...on.

Posted by: Berserker-Dragonheads Divison at December 13, 2017 12:06 PM (aMlLZ)

201 They're trained to believe a) they're on a war footing with their fellow citizens, b) everybody is trying to kill them,

I think this happens not during training, which is likely extreme PC / white-privilege / SJW; but after the first two weeks on the job hearing the first dozen-or-so 'dindu nuffins' apologetics.

What you are seeing from these cops is the breakdown of cognitive dissonance and its restructuring by total cynicism, frustration, and anger.
Posted by: boulder terlit hobo at December 13, 2017 12:00 PM (6FqZa)

No, they get that shit in Academy. They get shown video after video of both actual police shootings (which are rare) and staged videos designed to show how fast someone can pull a gun on them and shoot them. It's pounded in their heads that they're constantly in danger and everybody is Quick DrawMcGraw.

Posted by: Insomniac - Nobody in Particular at December 13, 2017 12:06 PM (NWiLs)

202 >>how would that sound ? "please step get out of the vehicle" - is that an invite ? or an order ?

It sounds exactly like that and your response needs to be -

"If you are Ordering me out of the Vehicle I would be happy to comply. However, if you are inviting me out of my vehicle - I would feel more comfortable remaining inside (my vehicle) until we are finished, here Officer."

Posted by: garrett at December 13, 2017 12:06 PM (XHDFG)

203 USA Today Calls Trump Unfit To Clean Obama's Toilets In Scathing Editorial
========

How precious. A "newspaper" that is handed out more freely than those "alternative news" rags in metro areas - and with just about as much gravitas.

Posted by: bicentennialguy at December 13, 2017 12:06 PM (vg8iE)

204 USA Today Calls Trump Unfit To Clean Obama's Toilets

there's too much shiite in them!

Posted by: x at December 13, 2017 12:07 PM (nFwvY)

205 >>>We have morphed from the idea that policemen are our friends and neighbors and are there to help, into some dystopian nightmare where rogue cops get to do pretty much whatever they want and then get away with it.

Too bad there were no rogue cops when Truck Guy ran down 8 people or Pipe Bomb Guy self exploded. Those two should have been executed on the spot, and the cops given medals.

Posted by: Steve and Cold Bear at December 13, 2017 12:07 PM (/qEW2)

206 Geez. This is sure a *type *delete kind of day.

Posted by: rickb223 at December 13, 2017 12:07 PM (ftdxp)

207 What you are seeing from these cops is the breakdown of cognitive dissonance and its restructuring by total cynicism, frustration, and anger.
Posted by: boulder terlit hobo at December 13, 2017 12:00 PM (6FqZa)

The old time cops certainly had the cynicism. But as I said above, many of them had social skills that could help them diffuse a situation with words and wit.
Yeah, alot of them were also handy with a nightstick too though...

Posted by: JoeF. at December 13, 2017 12:07 PM (7uYFy)

208 Speed check guy is hilarous.

Posted by: Al Gropen at December 13, 2017 12:08 PM (tbOMB)

209 cop should be in prison. that was an execution. not unlike an ss storm trooper. fuck that cop. what a travesty. when the shit gets real, guess whose side the cops will be on.

Posted by: chavez the hugo at December 13, 2017 12:08 PM (KP5rU)

210
USA Today is garbage. They bought all the (already mostly liberal) newspapers in NJ and turned them into unreadable daily hate -Trump screed sheets....
Posted by: JoeF. at December 13, 2017 12:04 PM

Almost every newspaper I ever see on line is owned by USA Today.

Posted by: Bertram Cabot, Jr. at December 13, 2017 12:08 PM (IqV8l)

211 A group of soldiers in Afghanistan went on a murder spree, deliberately killing civilians and covering for each other.

Obviously, all soldiers are bastards and the entire Army is corrupt.

Posted by: Apostate at December 13, 2017 12:08 PM (7d/38)

212 Francisco Franco is still dead, and Al Franken is still a Senator.

Posted by: Raoul Ortega at December 13, 2017 12:08 PM (HAA3B)

213 how would that sound ? "please step get out of the vehicle" - is that an invite ? or an order ?

Don't know, as I will never find myself in New Jersey.

Ever.

Posted by: rickb223 at December 13, 2017 12:09 PM (ftdxp)

214 You can't just saw acquit everyone. Now I do criminal defense work and I want acquittals for my clients, but look at what happened in this case. The cop walked free and the consensus here and on Instapundit seemed to be that he is guilty. Now were weren't in the courtroom but you have to ask yourself if everyone going free is the way to fix things. It might require more work, but unjust laws can get changed by the legislature or struck down on appeal. Those are better ways because I am hoping if the law is changed for everyone then less people are going to get accused in the first place of an unjust law.

Posted by: Iasonas at December 13, 2017 12:09 PM (MI8aK)

215 Well said CBD. Now lets give them some ex-military equipment.
So now Anytown USA has not just a police force, but a paramilitary force.
Because...the bad guys all have armored cars.

Posted by: Diogenes at December 13, 2017 12:09 PM (0tfLf)

216 And why do they get away with it?

-
It's a complex issue. If not for the phony outrage of the Michael Brown shooting et al., the cops might have more faith in the civilian population. Once the social contract of I'll be reasonable and you'll be reasonable has been broken, it's hard to put it together again. In the immortal words of Mick Jagger, "Faith has been broken tears must be cried."

I've been avoiding sharing this but perhaps now is the time. I was not quite fired but lost my job as a prosecutor because I angered the cops by refusing to coverup a lie. This is an over simplification of a complex situation but essentially a cop lied to me (and committed perjury at preliminary hearing) and I passed the lie on to defense counsel in good faith. The lie concerned the reason for the cop's termination from a previous cop job. When that cop and another cop each incurred serious bodily injury in attempting to make an arrest, I learned that I had been lied to so therefore I disclosec the lie to defense counsel allowing defense to get an order to examine the cop's personnel file. The cops and my boss were furious that I had disclosed this lie given that the cop was seriously injured and now was having his private personnel records examined. My boss agreed that the information had to be disclosed pursuant to Brady but argued that I should have waited until after the hearing for the examination of the personnel records. I don't really know what the timing of my obligation was but it seems to me Brady material should be disclosed when it would be of benefit to the defendant. Further, regardless of any legal obligation, it seems to me that out of simple fairness the defendant had a right to know. I was, after all, trying to imprison him for twenty years. Further, I didn't like it that the cop had used me as a conduit to lie to defense counsel. I like to be believed when I say something.

That was two years ago and I have been financially embarrased since. I'm 63, too old for most employers to hire, and have suffered much humiliation and rejection since. Further, I am disillusioned with law both from personal experience and from watching our esteemed Supreme Court and lessor courts betray the law. But don't cry for me, Argentina. My 93 year old mother has been seriously ill and this allows me time to help care for her. Further, I am also ill and now have time to actually prepare a proper diet and to exercise such that my heath is better than when I was working.

Posted by: Anonosaurus Wrecks, Covfefe today! Covfefe tomorrow! Covfefe forever! at December 13, 2017 12:09 PM (+y/Ru)

217 And if the guy is drunk and scared he might have heard "put your hands in the small of your back or we'll shoot you."
Posted by: Deplorable Male Logic at December 13, 2017 12:06 PM (lKyWE)

Or hard of hearing.
Or deaf.

Posted by: JoeF. at December 13, 2017 12:09 PM (7uYFy)

218 171 If you shoot a guy after he's on the ground you fucked up.

Posted by: DaveA at December 13, 2017 12:00 PM (FhXTo)

Don't make us file a grievance.

Posted by: Crawling, Terrified, and Sobbing Drunk Shooters, Local 243 at December 13, 2017 12:09 PM (u9OP6)

219 Cops are a very mixed bag. It`s difficult for cities to recruit and retain people so in order to meet that challenge standards have been lowered. If PDs were flush with eager, competent recruits some of the killer cops would likely have been fired for misbehavior long before they ever got the opportunity to smoke someone when it was unwarranted. This problem is only getting worse. That said, the cops I interact with are generally professional and decent to the public. The assholes are incandescent, unfortunately.

Posted by: FirecaptainTX at December 13, 2017 12:10 PM (HYVCf)

220 How about some of you fucks cleaning up your own State, before you continue with the Bama bashing. Chuck Fucking Schumer ring a bell? How about Feinstein?

Posted by: CSMBigBird at December 13, 2017 12:10 PM (jsWA8)

221 The guy made a move with his right arm back along his side. Looked like he could be going for a weapon. Whether that was enough to justify the shooting I don't know, but that was the job of the judge or jury who sat through the entire trial which I didn't do.

Was it a jury trial?

Posted by: Meremortal at December 13, 2017 12:10 PM (3myMJ)

222 216
how would that sound ? "please step get out of the vehicle" - is that an invite ? or an order ?

Don't know, as I will never find myself in New Jersey.

Ever.
Posted by: rickb223 at December 13, 2017 12:09 PM (ftdxp)

I would say the best idea is to treat all interactions with LE seriously, and manners.... they have a gun, and a badge... we do not.

Posted by: kraken at December 13, 2017 12:11 PM (zSVEm)

223 Zod, as you are not an idiot, you will be tossed
from consideration for a jury. That is another reason why the system
doesn't work, since both prosecution and defense winnow down the pool to
make sure those who end up in the jury box are the dullest members of
the herd, the ones the wolves used to pick off.

Posted by: Ruthless at December 13, 2017 11:50 AM (fkNSY)

What we need here are some tips on how to feign being an idiot, so as to not get thrown off a jury pool.
And I can remember some instances here of Morons and/or 'Ettes complaining about being required to serve on a jury, and seeking ways to avoid the duty. That amounts to abandoning the field to the idiots.

Posted by: Alberta Oil Peon at December 13, 2017 12:11 PM (oPNmq)

224 Clearly the woman in the red coat is not an 'ette. A real 'ette would be laughing her ass off.

Posted by: Diogenes at December 13, 2017 12:11 PM (0tfLf)

225 That LA Speed Check Video was awesome....

Posted by: Tex Lovera at December 13, 2017 12:11 PM (wtvvX)

226 Yeah there is a definite problem with policing. A lot of us here have previously voiced it. It did get drowned out a bit because BLM is so full of shit with their accusation that cops are just gunning down poor innocent black men left and right, and the reaction of their thuggery in trying to gun down cops.

It would be nice to actually start pushing for fixing the cops rather than the BLM garbage.

Posted by: buzzion at December 13, 2017 12:11 PM (cAnNx)

227 Unless they are subject to the UCMJ, THEY ARE CIVILIANS TOO!

Posted by: rickb223 at December 13, 2017 11:44 AM (ftdxp)

Good point.

I was lazy and used the vernacular.

We should probably push back on that!

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at December 13, 2017 12:11 PM (wYseH)

228 now Deutsch of FL is bring up the "We assess that Putin personally directed" etc

what does that mean, "assess"? did they have any evidence or just their opinion? Imagine if Trump said that he assessed that Obama personally directed the unmasking of people in classified documents or the special treatment of conservative groups by the IRS.

lots of filibustering going on today

Posted by: mallfly the Peach of Hoboken at December 13, 2017 12:12 PM (ILitO)

229 Cross your legs, keep your hands up, and crawl bitch.

Posted by: RioBravo at December 13, 2017 12:12 PM (5NMZN)

230 >>what does that mean, "assess"? did they have any evidence or just their opinion?

They had a Russia dossier.

Posted by: JackStraw at December 13, 2017 12:13 PM (/tuJf)

231 3 If not covered before?
Book plug for our cookbook just showed up on Instapundit.
Doctor Helen, Moronette.

Posted by: Stringer Davis

Excellent. I suggested going thru Ed Driscoll on the book thread, who frequently links us, but Ms. Helen will certainly do.

*******
A righteous rant, CBD. I once got in an argument with my dad (a part-time cop for 20+ years) about the dangerousness of a cop's job vs. cabbies, and it wasn't hard to find the statistic -- Cab/limo drivers are 7 times more likely to be killed on the job than cops.

Cops and jail guards see the worst of humanity on a daily basis, and for than a few it sours them. The soured ones see the rest of us as enemies, and it is hard to not return the favor.

Posted by: GnuBreed at December 13, 2017 12:13 PM (0ogQG)

232 Morning all. Has Trump been impeached yet? Oh, and f**k Drudge

Posted by: It's me donna at December 13, 2017 12:14 PM (O2RFr)

233 Sickening video. His widow has filed a wrongful death lawsuit and I hope that at the very least, she takes these assholes to the cleaners. I watched an interview with her last night where she said she was called to her 8 year old daughter's school as her daughter had tried to choke herself. When mom asked why, she said because she wanted to be with her daddy.

Heartbreaking.

Posted by: Cheri at December 13, 2017 12:14 PM (oiNtH)

234 What purpose was there to have the drunk guy crawl towards them? Seems it would have been safer for everyone if they just ordered him to lie flat face down arms outstretched.

Posted by: Buzzsaw at December 13, 2017 12:15 PM (aVYsC)

235 I have a client who was charged with assaulting a police officer and something else when he demanded that she get out of the car and would not. The charges were eventually dropped but the arrest remained on her record, which cost her a job. I filed for her expungement.

It's probably best just to comply with the officer's commands. You don't have to give consent to search or make statements. Getting out of the car is not consent to search.

Posted by: Iasonas at December 13, 2017 12:15 PM (MI8aK)

236 115
Posted by: pete at December 13, 2017 11:44 AM (meg+g)

Um, why not search the guy when he's spread-eagled on the ground?
There are two officers there. One covers, the other searches. Why the
B.S. instructions with which no one could comply, especially under
stressful circumstances?

I used to be a prosecutor. I've seen this stuff, though not with the same horrific results, before.

It was an execution because someone was having a bad day or wanted
the thrill of squeezing off a few rounds and becoming a "hero."

Because the call they were responding to said someone inside the room was waving a gun around. The cops had no idea if there were more people in the room, so they needed the suspects to crawl forward away from the door. The guy crawling was warned multiple times explicitly to do exactly as the cops said, or they would shoot. Did the guy deserve to die? After the fact, when we find out the details, no he didn't. But right there in that hallway, with the cops believing there's someone in the room with a gun, the guy reached behind his back when he's supposed to be crawling. The cop was justified in pulling the trigger.

Posted by: pete at December 13, 2017 12:15 PM (meg+g)

237 Anonosaurus, I didn't cry, but it is a bit dusty in here.
You did right, and I'm sure you know that, or you should.
God bless you and all the best to you and your mom.

Posted by: barbarausa at December 13, 2017 12:16 PM (ru28e)

238 "I think this happens not during training, which is likely extreme PC / white-privilege / SJW; but after the first two weeks on the job hearing the first dozen-or-so 'dindu nuffins' apologetics."

Getting serenaded with "Fuck the Police" by the populace, having every question answered with "didn't see nothin", being screamed at for not keeping little Toquavius from getting gunned down by a rival gang -- by the same people who didn't see nothin', and having every decision you have a split second to make second-guessed by politicians who are on the take from the gangs...

Posted by: Rob Crawford at December 13, 2017 12:16 PM (pKqmv)

239 Cops and jail guards see the worst of humanity on a daily basis, and for than a few it sours them. The soured ones see the rest of us as enemies, and it is hard to not return the favor.
Posted by: GnuBreed

________

Yea, but that's always been the case, yet somehow cops a few generations ago didn't view themselves as soldiers in a war zone 24/7.

This guy approached the situation like he was playing Call of Duty or some shoot 'em up video game.

I've seen this behavior first hand and something needs to change because law abiding citizens are starting to notice also.

Posted by: Maritime at December 13, 2017 12:17 PM (lKmt3)

240 Posted by: GnuBreed at December 13, 2017 12:13 PM (0ogQG)

You could compare cabbies it to the military personnel too so it's not really a fair comparison.

Posted by: Alabaster Jones at December 13, 2017 12:17 PM (2DOZq)

241 You are not going to win an argument with a Police officer on the street. Might as well do as he/she says.

Posted by: CSMBigBird at December 13, 2017 12:17 PM (jsWA8)

242 And why do they get away with it?
---
Because instead of Americans, we have a population that tolerates government and its personnel.

Posted by: Methos at December 13, 2017 12:17 PM (XQvuQ)

243 229 Yeah there is a definite problem with policing. A lot of us here have previously voiced it. It did get drowned out a bit because BLM is so full of shit with their accusation that cops are just gunning down poor innocent black men left and right, and the reaction of their thuggery in trying to gun down cops.

It would be nice to actually start pushing for fixing the cops rather than the BLM garbage.
Posted by: buzzion at December 13, 2017 12:11 PM (cAnNx)

Yep. Part of the overarching problem is having BLM screaming on one side, the cops-uber-alles crowd screaming on the other, and any opportunity for rational discussions of actual problems that demand reasonable reform gets squeezed out.

Posted by: Insomniac - Nobody in Particular at December 13, 2017 12:17 PM (NWiLs)

244 Spot on, CBD, and thanks for saying it.

Posted by: Dude at December 13, 2017 12:17 PM (RYASC)

245 Just two kinds of cops.

Bad cops and the cops that cover up for bad cops.

Posted by: Still John at December 13, 2017 12:17 PM (HI63o)

246 I didn't realize Rosenstein was such a POS.

Posted by: Under Fire-Moldova Curious at December 13, 2017 12:18 PM (r9UYA)

247 "214 A group of soldiers in Afghanistan went on a murder spree, deliberately killing civilians and covering for each other.

Obviously, all soldiers are bastards and the entire Army is corrupt. "

Are you referring to Bales? Because Bales is in Leavenworth, and will die in Leavenworth. He deserves the firing squad, but life in Leavenworth is a fitting punishment for his crimes.

Posted by: Viking1865 at December 13, 2017 12:18 PM (uUj9/)

248
Cops and jail guards see the worst of humanity on a daily basis, and for than a few it sours them.

The L.A. County Sheriff requires its officers to do two years in the L.A. County jail system as jailers before they can become street cops and it shows. They are notoriously hardnosed with people.

Posted by: Deplorable Male Logic at December 13, 2017 12:19 PM (lKyWE)

249 What purpose was there to have the drunk guy crawl towards them?

---

I think that the stated purpose was that there *may* have been someone connected to the incoherent drunk hiding in one of the rooms, and that this hypothetical person may have shot the cop as he walked down the hall to Shaver.

Most likely purpose? Cuz he can. Duh.

Posted by: Jenny Hates Her Phone at December 13, 2017 12:19 PM (YssD8)

250
*looks at pic of Oldest Son in his cop uniform.

*types*

*deletes*

Be back later ya'all. I wouldn't want to get call out in the content by a cob.

Posted by: fixerupper at December 13, 2017 12:19 PM (8XRCm)

251 >>Getting out of the car is not consent to search.

In New Jersey.

Try that line of reasoninh in Utah or Idaho and see where you get in a Court.

Posted by: garrett at December 13, 2017 12:19 PM (XHDFG)

252 Is that speed check thing the SR-71 one?

As for stupid jurors, last time I was called for duty the pathetically unimpressive people in the courtroom were the judge and almost all the lawyers. Surreal. Managed to get dismissed early, along with a (miraculously) non-moonbat UC professor. One defense lawyer (civil suit, medical malpractice) seemed intelligent, everyone else was shockingly clueless.

So BSG got banninated? Missed all the fun.

Posted by: rhomboid at December 13, 2017 12:19 PM (QDnY+)

253 The obvious solution is to hire more nice, peaceful Muslims into the force, rather than all these callous, violent white men. People like that nice officer Mohammed Noor in Minneapolis. That'll fix it.

Posted by: Angela Merkel at December 13, 2017 12:20 PM (/qEW2)

254 Gowdy just trashed Strok, Rosenstein looks like he wishes he were somewhere else.

Posted by: mallfly the Peach of Hoboken at December 13, 2017 12:20 PM (ILitO)

255 Posted by: Maritime at December 13, 2017 12:17 PM (lKmt3)

You don't know that because the ability to get the same information back then is no where close to the instantaneous info we get today.

Posted by: Alabaster Jones at December 13, 2017 12:20 PM (2DOZq)

256 246

Yep. Part of the overarching problem is having BLM screaming on one side, the cops-uber-alles crowd screaming on the other, and any opportunity for rational discussions of actual problems that demand reasonable reform gets squeezed out.
Posted by: Insomniac - Nobody in Particular at December 13, 2017 12:17 PM (N

You are spot-on. Like everything anymore.... not a bit of either or... the whole country is a powder keg...

Posted by: kraken at December 13, 2017 12:20 PM (zSVEm)

257 The cop was justified in pulling the trigger.
Posted by: pete

the cop was justified shooting an unarmed man in the back? sounds like a colossal fuck up to me.

Posted by: x at December 13, 2017 12:20 PM (nFwvY)

258 Anonosaurus Wrecks - I believe your interpretation of your obligations under Brad was absolutely correct. Unfortunately you employed in one of the many places today where doing your job ethically and morally is grounds for termination.

We have a DA in my county who's been on the edge of a lot of shady dealings for years, most go away with no one doing anything, but the few that do get serious always end up being blamed on some scapegoat underling who takes the fall. And now he's retiring to a big fat pension and a cushy life. Well, that's how this world works. Evil men prosper, and the righteous suffer for their beliefs.

Posted by: Tom Servo at December 13, 2017 12:21 PM (k1TUh)

259 As a teenager in the late '70's when the cops would bust up one of our kegger parties, they would have us dump the beer and weed and disperse. Now, kids are arrested and have to go to juvenile court, therapy, etc. Big revenue.

Posted by: Cheri at December 13, 2017 12:21 PM (oiNtH)

260 "They get shown video after video of both actual police shootings (which are rare) and staged videos designed to show how fast someone can pull a gun on them and shoot them."

The same material we saw in CCW class.

Posted by: Rob Crawford at December 13, 2017 12:21 PM (pKqmv)

261 >>The cop was justified in pulling the trigger.

All Dogs go to Heaven, after all.

Posted by: garrett at December 13, 2017 12:21 PM (XHDFG)

262 250
*looks at pic of Oldest Son in his cop uniform.

*types*

*deletes*

Be back later ya'all. I wouldn't want to get call out in the content by a cob.

Posted by: fixerupper at December 13, 2017 12:19 PM (8XRCm)

You can love and support your son and what he does and still recognize there are serious problems in the institution of law enforcement. It's not even cognitive dissonance!

Posted by: Insomniac - Nobody in Particular at December 13, 2017 12:22 PM (NWiLs)

263 Posted by: garrett at December 13, 2017 12:19 PM (XHDFG)

I don't know the laws there but I don't see how simply stepping out of the vehicle is equivalent to saying the words "Yes officer, I give you consent to search my vehicle."

Posted by: Iasonas at December 13, 2017 12:22 PM (MI8aK)

264 I keep hearing about training, training, training...all the training in the world won't turn an unfit officer into a paragon of justice.

And there's a whole lot of unfit officers out there.

All the "training" does is cover the PD's collective butts.

Posted by: Brother Cavil, Cylon Cassandra at December 13, 2017 12:22 PM (AM1GF)

265 Somebody watching Rosenstein let us know if anyone asks him to walk through how Mueller's appointment conforms to the special counsel statute, given no underlying crime or evidence thereof.

Of course that would be too much like an obvious, central, almost dispositive question for the situation, so chances of it happening are slim.

Posted by: rhomboid at December 13, 2017 12:23 PM (QDnY+)

266 260
They get shown video after video of both actual police shootings (which are rare) and staged videos designed to show how fast someone can pull a gun on them and shoot them."

The same material we saw in CCW class.
Posted by: Rob Crawford at December 13, 2017 12:21 PM (pKqmv)

True. Have seen this too.

Posted by: kraken at December 13, 2017 12:23 PM (zSVEm)

267 "Just two kinds of cops.

Bad cops and the cops that cover up for bad cops."

Ever read Second City Cop? Which type are They?

Posted by: Rob Crawford at December 13, 2017 12:23 PM (pKqmv)

268 Be back later ya'all. I wouldn't want to get call out in the content by a cob.

Posted by: fixerupper at December 13, 2017 12:19 PM (8XRCm)

This isn't an echo chamber. Disagree all you want. Nobody gets tossed out of here for disagreeing.

I'm serious.

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at December 13, 2017 12:23 PM (wYseH)

269 nood

Posted by: IC at December 13, 2017 12:23 PM (a0IVu)

270 "The cop clearly states "if your hands go to the small of your back or
???, we will shoot you". Then at exactly 4:22 of the video, the guy
reaches his hand back to the small of his back when he's supposed to be
crawling. Cop shoots instantly. Not guilty. "

What are we playing Simon Says?

Posted by: Wendy at December 13, 2017 12:23 PM (bpemY)

271 That was Patterico and that is the apologia that he keeps saying isn't an apologia. Uh. Huh.

Posted by: alexthechick - Breathe deeply. Namaste. Prayer-hands. Warrior Pose. at December 13, 2017 11:30 AM (mf5HN)

It is an apologia and it's horrible. I was shocked by his "suspect made a couple of fatal moves" paragraph after admitting the cop yelling contradictory commands. And it wasn't just 10 seconds of that, it was almost four minutes of insanity. The guy looked like he simply wanted the cops to come over and cuff him and end the farce.

The concern about someone being waiting in the room to jump out and shoot the cops therefore the cops couldn't go over and handcuff him is ridiculous. They should have left the guy standing, hands on his head and had him walk over then.

Murder it is, most foul.

Posted by: WOPR (now with chainsaw bayonets) at December 13, 2017 12:24 PM (J70i0)

272
182 USA Today is unfit to line a birdcage or wipe your ass with.

always knew they were dodgy. can't trust a paper with no comics.

Posted by: Anachronda at December 13, 2017 12:24 PM (v3pYe)

273 >>I don't know the laws there but I don't see how simply stepping out of the vehicle is equivalent to saying the words "Yes officer, I give you consent to search my vehicle."

Well, it is Legally called Tacit Consent and many States consider you exiting your vehice, invited not ordered, Tacit Consent.

I've watched it happen about a dozen times in my life. AZ, UT, ID, SD...

it's a sneaky little trick they like to spring on the uninformed.

Posted by: garrett at December 13, 2017 12:25 PM (XHDFG)

274 Further, I am also ill and now have time to
actually prepare a proper diet and to exercise such that my heath is
better than when I was working.

Posted by: Anonosaurus Wrecks, Covfefe today! Covfefe tomorrow! Covfefe forever! at December 13, 2017 12:09 PM (+y/Ru)
I'm in a similar situation, however unemployed due to offshoring of my job, not as in your case, when you were actually demonstrating some integrity and professionalism and got punished for it.During my time off I got sick and consequently funemployment turned into trying to stay healthy, hell, trying to stay upright. I was forced to slow down, spend time in meditation and prayer and generally reflect on my life of the past ten years or so. I feel like I'm coming out of that phase and yesterday went on first job interview. Your age is not as much of a deterrent as you believe. Have you used your personal network? Sometimes leads come from unlikely sources.As to CBD's rant, I couldn't really look at the video because I"m still traumatized from viewing the Kelly Thomas killing years ago.

Posted by: kallisto at December 13, 2017 12:25 PM (Iz8Py)

275
"Civilian lives are more important than cop lives"

WRONG.
The Arizona cop was a murderer but you are wrong here.

We give cops a lot of latitude because we'd rather sleep at night than keeping watch with a shotgun.
And maybe that's part of the problem: we've abdicated all responsibility for our own security and that makes us too willing to overlook their faults. That fact points to the real solution.

But this bullshit about cops being expendable is beyond the pale.

Posted by: rayj at December 13, 2017 12:26 PM (pI/IV)

276 As an Arizonan and a Mesa resident (Somewhat OT: with Jeff Flake living down the street), I am shamed by my state's officials.

I **fully** understand Patterico's point that the dangers facing police officers can face come on them in just fractions of a second and that they literally no time to decide--and act--between life and death.

And yet, that police officer (and the supervisor yelling on the video, and the other officers in that hallway) ended up shooting a man who was not a dangerous man.

For as much as I taught my kids otherwise, the police are not your friends. They'll do things wrong, and as this case illustrates (to me, at least), their system will defend those actions.

Posted by: Action Jackson is my name. Bold adventure is my game. at December 13, 2017 12:26 PM (0SPyv)

277 Ace up

Posted by: Vic We Have No Party at December 13, 2017 12:26 PM (mpXpK)

278 Posted by: garrett at December 13, 2017 12:25 PM (XHDFG)

Interesting. I was not aware. Thank you for the information, I learned something today!

Posted by: Iasonas at December 13, 2017 12:26 PM (MI8aK)

279 Which flies in the face of every Cop interaction anyone has ever seen.

It's become reflex for a suspect to put there hands EXACTLY where the Cop ordered him not to.

'Hands behind your back!'
Posted by: garrett at December 13, 2017 12:01 PM (XHDFG)

And you could see that's what the guy was thinking the one time. Open hands behind his back.

Posted by: WOPR (now with chainsaw bayonets) at December 13, 2017 12:26 PM (J70i0)

280 Without disparaging vets, I don't know that combat experience necessarily translates a good education/training/experience for law enforcement.
Posted by: Bear with Assymetrical Balls at December 13, 2017 11:34 AM (ppBhU)

Combat experience translates into civilian life only insofar as baselining the ordinary is concerned; that is, it gives me perspective on life-problems, the realization that most life-problems fall under the category of small stuff. It's personal, psychological, not professional.

I know small arms tactics. I know how to lead an infantry fire team and squad (or rather, once knew those things since it's been a very long time since I've done so). I know how to keep my cool no matter how sideways things are going--or at least look like I'm keeping my cool.

But you're right: a soldier is not a cop. Cops don't need a fighting/killing mentality on the job.

Posted by: troyriser at December 13, 2017 12:26 PM (raGQi)

281 259

Eh, I'm actually okay with that to a large extent. If there are going to be laws against XYZ, you do have to enforce them. Which is why we should be really, really careful about adding laws against X, Y, and Z.

Posted by: Jenny Hates Her Phone at December 13, 2017 12:27 PM (YssD8)

282 A lot of people appear to think that all cop badge numbers start with "OO", giving them a License to Kill.

Posted by: Tom Servo at December 13, 2017 12:27 PM (k1TUh)

283 180
>> "The cop clearly states "if your hands go to the small of your back or ???, we will shoot you".

Which flies in the face of every Cop interaction anyone has ever seen.

It's become reflex for a suspect to put there hands EXACTLY where the Cop ordered him not to.

'Hands behind your back!'

He was crawling forward as instructed, then he suddenly reaches behind his back. Watch the video. There was no reason for him to do that, and the cop explicitly said not to or he WILL be shot. This is not a case of cop saying "put your hands on your head, not behind your back" and dude puts them behind his back. He's supposed to crawl forward, nothing else.

Posted by: pete at December 13, 2017 12:28 PM (meg+g)

284 most city cops just standby when antifa thugs destroy shit and threaten people. other groups are arrested or dispersed. what does that tell you?

Posted by: chavez the hugo at December 13, 2017 12:28 PM (KP5rU)

285 Posted by: Insomniac - Nobody in Particular at December 13, 2017 12:06 PM (NWiLs)

[Kyle Dinkheller Intensifies]

Posted by: The Deplorable Mr. Trumpkin at December 13, 2017 12:29 PM (wwd4n)

286 The shooting video was setting him up to get shot. They are bound and determined to shoot somebody. I do not understand the Jury at all.

LEO's give me some input. If I just lie there with legs crossed and hands behind my head, and refuse to move. Will I get shot?

I understand they intend to move into the room. Can I respond "I will not comply." and just l stay put?

Posted by: Paladin at December 13, 2017 12:32 PM (lP8dE)

287 ...puts them behind his back. He's supposed to crawl forward, nothing else.
Posted by: pete at December 13, 2017 12:28 PM (meg+g)

He was pulling up his pants and this was several minutes of get contradictory commands. Really, see how you do after four minutes of someone telling you they will kill you at the slightest mistake.

Posted by: WOPR (now with chainsaw bayonets) at December 13, 2017 12:32 PM (J70i0)

288 >>He was crawling forward as instructed, then he suddenly reaches behind his back. Watch the video. There was no reason for him to do that, and the cop explicitly said not to or he WILL be shot.

There's any number of reasons for him to do that and not a single one of them would be a danger to a cop who had a weapon pointed at him AND had backup.

The Cop Murdered Him Because He Could.

Posted by: garrett at December 13, 2017 12:33 PM (XHDFG)

289 199

"The cop clearly states "if your hands go to the small of your back or ???, we will shoot you".

And if the guy is drunk and scared he might have heard "put your hands in the small of your back or we'll shoot you."

So you didn't actually watch the video, did you? The cop asks the two suspects if they're drunk, they respond "no". And he didn't put his hands to the small of his back immediately after the instruction not to. He did it while he was crawling forward. He stops crawling and reaches with one hand to his back side.

Posted by: pete at December 13, 2017 12:33 PM (meg+g)

290 Pete kind of sounds like a dick.

Posted by: nip at December 13, 2017 12:33 PM (ECLaL)

291 Take the jury individually to the hallway.
Play the tape.
Have them obey the commands.
Failure get a paintball.

Posted by: geoffb at December 13, 2017 12:34 PM (zOpu5)

292 But you're right: a soldier is not a cop. Cops don't need a fighting/killing mentality on the job.

==

agreed

Posted by: runner at December 13, 2017 12:35 PM (QC/4S)

293 I'm so sick of this fucked up planet and its beastly inhabitants.

Posted by: kallisto at December 13, 2017 12:36 PM (Iz8Py)

294 There's any number of reasons for him to do that and not a single one of
them would be a danger to a cop who had a weapon pointed at him AND had
backup.

The Cop Murdered Him Because He Could.

1. There is no reason for him to do that when explicitly instructed not to, and while crawling forward as the cop ordered.
2. If he actually had a gun tucked into the back of his pants, (and remember, the cops were responding to a call about a gun being waved around), then he definitely would be a danger to the cops.

Posted by: pete at December 13, 2017 12:36 PM (meg+g)

295 Excellent rant. I'm a retired former Army and Coast Guard aviator who has been cited three times for speeding since I started driving 40 years ago and that's it.

A few years ago, I was pulled over in Louisiana (I work four days a week for a helicopter company that flies oil rig workers from Louisiana to rigs off the coast) headed home to Florida in my truck for an "improper lane change" even though I used a signal and checked my blindspot twice before moving to pass a slower car in the right lane while doing the speed limit. The cop had his weapon unholstered and pointed it at me while he rudely barked at me to hand him my license and registration.

He then told me to put my hands on the wheel or face the consequences. I told him that I signaled and wasn't speeding and he told me to shut my mouth or he'd drag me off to jail.

I've been in combat in the Persian Gulf (Operation Prime Chance) and Arabian desert (Desert Storm) and I felt safer then than I did with that roided-out, muscle-bound bully pointing his 40. cal at me.

I started having chest pains and difficulty breathing and I went to an emergency room afterward.

Thankfully, the doctor told me I was having a panic attack and I was able to wait until my son and wife could drive over from Florida to bring me home.

I ended up paying the $100 ticket, but I felt like I'd been robbed at gunpoint, almost literally.

As a result, I take a different route to work that adds 15 minutes to my trip.

The police need to stop seeing citizens as the enemy. This militarization of the police is a huge part of the problem. Another is civil asset forfeiture, where in some states they can take your stuff without a crime being committed so they can sell it and add it to their budgets.

Not all cops are bad. I'd wager that 99.9 percent of them are good and do a good job protecting and serving. However, they do bear responsibility when they know about the 0.01 percent who are nothing more than bullies with a badge and do nothing.

Posted by: Grizzledcoastie at December 13, 2017 12:37 PM (FMgad)

296 When among the first words out of the cop's mouth are "Make another mistake and we'll shoot you." and any attempt by the suspects to communicate with the cops was met with, "Shut up! This is not a conversation." There was only one way this was going to end.

The guy barking order wanted this.

Posted by: Stu Podaso at December 13, 2017 12:37 PM (l4NG+)

297 Anonosaurus: Mensch.

fixerupper: This may not be the time, but I'd like to run past you especially my view of cops:

- Like the rest of humanity, they run the whole spectrum from straight-up heroes to vile and vicious. Those at both ends are quite rare, but in a country big enough to have three quarters of a million police officers, individuals at both ends are going to pop up in the news with fair regularity.

- The average cop is a rather good man or woman. But it's not a smooth bell curve. In my experience there are two peaks, basically: The salt of the earth; and, You WILL respect mah authoritah!

- Like any group that feels itself under fire by outsiders who don't understand them, the temptation to close ranks around even the worst of their own can be strong, and can lead them to give the benefit of the doubt to the otherwise indefensible.

Posted by: JPS at December 13, 2017 12:40 PM (xU88x)

298 He was pulling up his pants and this was several minutes of get
contradictory commands. Really, see how you do after four minutes of
someone telling you they will kill you at the slightest mistake.

Well give the guy his Darwin Award then.
1. There were no contradictory commands.
2. The first suspect was able to accurately follow the instructions.
3. There's no way I'd be adjusting my pants if the cops ordered me to crawl with a gun pointed at me and a warning that they'd shoot me if I failed to follow instructions. I'd crawl, nothing else.

If I were on the jury, based on this video, I would be unable to find the cop guilty.

Posted by: pete at December 13, 2017 12:41 PM (meg+g)

299 When among the first words out of the cop's mouth
are "Make another mistake and we'll shoot you." and any attempt by the
suspects to communicate with the cops was met with, "Shut up! This is
not a conversation." There was only one way this was going to end.

The guy barking order wanted this.

Posted by: Stu Podaso at December 13, 2017 12:37 PM (l4NG+)

------------------------------------
Whether intentional or not the whole set of orders, the delivery, sequence, and duration guaranteed a mistake would be made.

Posted by: RioBravo at December 13, 2017 12:43 PM (5NMZN)

300 >>1. There is no reason for him to do that when explicitly instructed not to, and while crawling forward as the cop ordered.
2. If he actually had a gun tucked into the back of his pants, (and remember, the cops were responding to a call about a gun being waved around), then he definitely would be a danger to the cops.

1. He had an itch. Dry skin. A Pube cought in the wiastband of his underwear. Bed bugs!

2. Problem with that is you can't get shot by a Not Gun.

And, even if he had a gun in his pants - the cops were already drawn on him and he was flat on his stomach. They would not have been in any danger.

Posted by: garrett at December 13, 2017 12:44 PM (XHDFG)

301 Pete, just curious:

Suppose the guy had said, "Officer? I'm scared right now, so I'm just going to freeze here with my legs spread and my hands where you can see 'em."

Guessing he'd have been told to shut up before he got all that out. But just suppose.

Would he have gotten shot anyway? And would you still be defending the cop on the grounds that he'd been warned and he wasn't complying?

Posted by: JPS at December 13, 2017 12:45 PM (xU88x)

302 There was a homeless vet killed in NV, the shooting cop was heard to say he was aiming for the man's genitals.

Posted by: kallisto at December 13, 2017 12:50 PM (Iz8Py)

303 The Kelly Thomas thing is incredibly disturbing. The cop announced in advance, "I'm gonna f*ck you up", then started the beating. During the beating, Thomas cried out:
- "Dad, help me... They're killing me" - 31 times
- "Sir, please, please... okay ... okay" - 30 times
- "Help me, help me, God" - 26 times
- "I'm sorry" - 15 times

Multiple cops eventually beat him to death. He died of his injuries later at a hospital. Pictures are online.

All the cops were acquitted of all charges.

Posted by: OCBill at December 13, 2017 12:50 PM (df+Zi)

304 296
When among the first words out of the cop's mouth are "Make another
mistake and we'll shoot you." and any attempt by the suspects to
communicate with the cops was met with, "Shut up! This is not a
conversation." There was only one way this was going to end.

The guy barking order wanted this.

They were responding to a report of a gun. With all of the cop killings going on around the country, they're going to be on extreme alert and not willing to put themselves at risk. The cop told him multiple times to shut up. Once the suspects are neutralized (handcuffed) the cops will be willing to talk. But until that happens, they're going to be extremely tense if you're not listening and obeying.

Posted by: pete at December 13, 2017 12:50 PM (meg+g)

305 And, even if he had a gun in his pants - the cops
were already drawn on him and he was flat on his stomach. They would
not have been in any danger.

Posted by: garrett at December 13, 2017 12:44 PM (XHDFG)

Proving you didn't watch the video. He wasn't flat on his stomach.

Posted by: pete at December 13, 2017 12:52 PM (meg+g)

306 3. There's no way I'd be adjusting my pants if the cops ordered me to crawl with a gun pointed at me and a warning that they'd shoot me if I failed to follow instructions. I'd crawl, nothing else.

If I were on the jury, based on this video, I would be unable to find the cop guilty.
Posted by: pete at December 13, 2017 12:41 PM (meg+g)

You don't know what you would be doing after four minutes of someone telling you all sorts contradictory commands. Hands on your head, fingers interlaced, and legs crossed does not suddenly turn into, now get back up and crawl. The guy is following commands at that point, probably thinking here come the cuffs, but the cop keeps issuing more commands. The fact you can't recognize the confusion this is going to cause someone is strange.

Posted by: WOPR (now with chainsaw bayonets) at December 13, 2017 12:52 PM (J70i0)

307 Posted by: JPS at December 13, 2017 12:45 PM (xU88x)

Yep, he should have just laid there with his hands on his head and legs crossed. BTW, did it matter which leg was crossed?

Posted by: WOPR (now with chainsaw bayonets) at December 13, 2017 12:54 PM (J70i0)

308 Patterico's breakdown is pretty spot on, but there are some factors he doesn't address:
1) we have now raised 2-3 generations of boys who have been taught not to fight, under any circumstances. In bygone years, boys grew up and learned to handle physical confrontations, and that helped them to learn to control their own adrenaline. Without that experience, when people hit a "fight or flight" moment, they dissolve into panic. That's what you're hearing in the moronic instructions being given to the suspect/victim. We still give service points to military veterans in the hiring process, but there's no guarantee that a particular veteran has experience under fire, or that he knows how to control his own adrenaline.
2) In the past, patrolmen did everything a cop is asked to do. Over the last 10-15 years, we have moved to a model where anything with any risk is farmed out to a SWAT or TRT team. The problem with that strategy is that it deprives patrolmen of experience in dealing with high risk situations and, again, they lose the opportunity to learn to control their own responses. That would be okay, if cops could anticipate every situation and have SWAT standing by, but the nature of the work means that there are going to be situations where no SWAT team is around, and guys with no experience will have to respond. Then you get disasters, like this one.
3) There is a genuine shortage of quality applicants and a growing need to fill positions in most police and sheriff departments. That means that standards are lowered, to get more bodies on the job. That's partly what happened in the Minnesota shooting referenced above. That idiot was placed in an "accelerated" training program, which was apparently designed to ignore the fact that he had no business being a cop. The other thing that is happening is the political myth of diversity being more important than quality in police applicants. That's what happened in the NY strangling death of the cig salesman. There was only one cop there who was physically capable of confronting the suspect, while surrounded by physically inept cops who could and did nothing. By "coincidence", NYPD has been hammered by ADA lawsuits forcing it to take physically unqualified applicants and graduate them to the streets. While women generally tend to make better investigators than men, because they are more patient and better listeners, they make terrible patrolmen, because they are completely unable to deal with physical altercations. Unfortunately, in every police dept, the road to investigator, runs through patrol. That's where basic skills are learned. But women in patrol are just political extravagance. They don't belong there. There's a reason the marine corps hasn't graduated a woman from OCS. They can't find one who can do 4 pull ups..

Posted by: macleod at December 13, 2017 12:56 PM (I7blG)

309 A few years ago there was a drunk man holding a hose nozzle who was shot dead by police on his front porch. Got six bullets and a couple shot gun blasts. A neighbor reported a man with a gun. Perhaps cops could have some additional evidence of a gun or a threat of some sort before they shoot people.

Posted by: RioBravo at December 13, 2017 12:56 PM (5NMZN)

310 Obviously this isn't the day to stick up for cops here.

But I have a thin blue line decal that runs across my car's rear window. My office, where it sits every day, is in a let's say, "challenged" area. Never had a problem with it so far.

I put the decal on when the police did this at their station. The donations they collected that day went to a fund for the family of an officer who was shot to death a few days before. He was checking out a suspicious car and as he approached the vehicle, the driver gunned him down.

Lots of tears by and for family, friends, and the community over the murder of a guy just doing his job. Flags at half mast. Pretty damn sad.

I get the anger here, and I guess I get most of the rant from a cob I respect. But trying to at least provide another perspective here.

Posted by: RM at December 13, 2017 12:57 PM (U3LtS)

311 Here in PA I've found the state troopers to be generally well-trained, professional and courteous even when they have reason to check you out. Municipal and town cops not so much.

Posted by: Cosda at December 13, 2017 12:58 PM (uYilc)

312 290
Pete kind of sounds like a dick.

Posted by: nip at December 13, 2017 12:33 PM (ECLaL)

No, the cop sounded like a dick. But being a dick doesn't mean you should be declared guilty of murder. The suspect very clearly reached behind his back when he was supposed to be crawling forward, and the officer reacted to it as a threat. All the outrage in the world because it turns out the guy was innocent doesn't change the fact that the suspect didn't follow instructions, and in fact made a move that could easily be interpreted as reaching for a gun.

Posted by: pete at December 13, 2017 12:58 PM (meg+g)

313 They were responding to a report of a gun.
-----------------

And turned it into a shooting and a death.

Posted by: RioBravo at December 13, 2017 01:02 PM (5NMZN)

314
You don't know what you would be doing after
four minutes of someone telling you all sorts contradictory commands.
Hands on your head, fingers interlaced, and legs crossed does not
suddenly turn into, now get back up and crawl. The guy is following
commands at that point, probably thinking here come the cuffs, but the
cop keeps issuing more commands. The fact you can't recognize the
confusion this is going to cause someone is strange.

Posted by: WOPR (now with chainsaw bayonets) at December 13, 2017 12:52 PM (J70i0)

You've got to be kidding me. The instructions were pretty simple, not contradictory, issued sequentially as each step was successfully executed, and the woman was able to follow them prior to the exact same sequence of instructions being barked at the guy who couldn't.

Posted by: pete at December 13, 2017 01:02 PM (meg+g)

315 All the cops were acquitted of all charges.

Posted by: OCBill at December 13, 2017 12:50 PM (df+Zi)
In addition to the fact that it was a paid assassination, ordered by the local bar owner who was sick of Kelly loitering in the parking lot. Being mentally ill and homeless is a very high risk occupation. Our society cares little for the "least of these".The cops did lose their jobs IIRC and so did the City councilmen who were Republican, also if memory serves. And Kelly's parents were paid. A million to the mom who accepted the first settlement offered, and then the father went to court and was paid around 13 million dollars.Not much happened in the community though to assist the plight of the homeless, although there was a lot of talk.

Posted by: kallisto at December 13, 2017 01:02 PM (Iz8Py)

316 I have always heard that "you or someone else was in fear for their life." The only one in fear for their life was on the ground.

Posted by: Paladin at December 13, 2017 01:05 PM (lP8dE)

317 "But this bullshit about cops being expendable is beyond the pale. "

Cops are expendable. Soldiers are expendable. We honor them, we respect them, we give them flag draped caskets and 21 gun salutes because they are expendable, because they place their fragile bodies between the good many and the evil few. Because they willingly risk life and limb to keep the peace and provide justice. We venerate these people because they are willing to die for us, not because they are willing to kill for us.

This video, and the many many others like it, represent a perversion of the ethics of a lawful republic. This is not supposed to happen in America. This is not how things are supposed to work. It's not just a "few bad apples". This is how police operate in this country. They escalate, they intimidate, they treat every single situation like it's their chance to be Bruce Willis. They think they have the right to shoot not when they are threatened, but when they feel threatened.

It's fucking special snowflakes with military weapons, body armor, and fucking immunity from the law.

Posted by: Viking1865 at December 13, 2017 01:09 PM (uUj9/)

318 Why do I get the feeling pete had some kleenexes and a bottle of lotion nearby when he watched that video for the 34th time?

Posted by: Stu Podaso at December 13, 2017 01:10 PM (l4NG+)

319 Excellent rant. I am fed up with cops using the excuse "I feared for my life" when shooting unarmed suspects. Am I now justified in shooting cops because I "fear for my life"? This one is the last straw. No more "benefit of the doubt". If they find the job that frightening, particularly after a number of years on the job, they should find another less stressful job. And don't start whining about how dangerous the job is and that you don't know if you will come home when you leave for work. BS. Police officer doesn't even make the top ten dangerous jobs according to the department of labor.

Listening to that sadistic SOB I can understand why he left the country.

Posted by: timactual at December 13, 2017 01:16 PM (vy0yJ)

320 You are not going to win an argument with a Police officer on the street. Might as well do as he/she says.
Posted by: CSMBigBird

Especially when they want to rape you.

Posted by: Blue Hen at December 13, 2017 01:18 PM (326rv)

321 My continuing prediction: Police unions (and thin blue line) will not survive a surveillance state. Too many cameras = too many videos like this...which will start to out massive pressure on the politicians...to pressure the police chiefs....to stop protecting the 5% (10, 20, whatever) of bad cops that all the other cops *Know* are bad.

It will take a politician (gak) to force the police o stop protecting their own.

Posted by: Tonic Dog at December 13, 2017 01:18 PM (VGaeh)

322 "This is murder, and no amount of obfuscation or sucking up to the cops ... will change the facts."

Let me preface my comment on this incident first. These LEO's, no doubt, have dealt with hundreds of suspects who happen to have been wearing baggy style gym pants which regularly need to be pulled up, since that has been the fashion for a very long time. That noted, I'll tell you what I think.

I think entirely too much time was spent ordering the suspects to render themselves harmless so that the officers could take them into custody. They could have likely taken both, but most certainly taken the man into custody when he was positioned laying flat -- motionless -- on the floor with feet crossed and hands behind his head. Instead of doing that the officer issuing the commands forced him to follow orders which would require him to make movements some of which could be questionable from the officer's perspective.

And that last part is crucial. He not only forced the man to move, but he forced him to move in a way which he expected, a way which would require the man to reach for the waistband of his gym pants, a way requiring movements which would pull his pants down -- dragging his knees along the floor.

Now I don't know whether it was planned by both, or was solely the idea of the officer barking the orders, but it certainly was planned, if not also premeditated by the barking officer.

As I said, I don't know about the armed officer; it may have been joint conduct. Or he may have been a patsy. But whether the armed officer was a trigger happy patsy or not, the officer issuing the commands is certainly the one who should have been on trial.

Posted by: Dusty at December 13, 2017 01:33 PM (RZ7r7)

323 "So that's what can happen if you get all confrontational when there's really no reason to.
Posted by: Tom Servo at December 13, 2017 11:43 AM (k1TUh)"

That's straight up kidnapping, but interestingly, it wasn't the lesson you took.

Posted by: Steve at December 13, 2017 01:44 PM (cOANc)

324 The problem is that a good portion of the public use "police officer" and "God" as interchangeable terms. As such, cops feel emboldened and think they therefore have the license to do as they damn well please.

"But the police SERVE AND PROTECT!!!" Police ONLY serve themselves and protect no one. And even IF we are talking about those who are in the job because they want to do the right thing at all times, they STILL can't protect because of Police Chief Isaac Newton. (This is why it is very important for citizens to protect themselves by arming themselves.)

And don't give me this "They keep us safe!" BS either. They don't, because again, they can't.

Another problem that exists is the annoying penchant people have for doing their damndest to duck responsibility by foisting it onto others. If people stopped doing that, maybe we could fire half the police officers we have in this country and barely notice. What do I mean by ducking responsibility? Self-defense isn't a right as much as it is a responsibility we all owe ourselves. Taking the time to raise our kids with morals and values is another, and holding each other accountable to those morals and values is another. (The very, very last thing we should be doing for anything is calling the police.)

It should also be noted that after a day of spitting in the faces of the public, lying constantly to them, and fundraising and using said fundraising as a means to keep tabs on the population, they will go home and simultaneously DEMAND that they are above criticism and whine about why no one likes them.

Posted by: CatchThirtyThr33 at December 13, 2017 01:47 PM (riRH3)

325 I tried to teach my daughter (28 now) that, but she insists on arguing and refusing to say anything. Last year, a cop stopped her while she was parked, looking at a house for rent, but it was night, and he wondered if she was up to something. She wasn't, but she got all pissed and yelled at him and said she was gonna get a lawyer, so he claimed he thought she was intoxicated (she wasn't) and gave her a night in jail. No breath tests, no blood tests, just a "ha ha, you pissed me off, see how you like a night in the drunk tank". This was obvious the next morning when they let her go and didn't even file charges - they knew they had nothing, but still gave her a damn bad night just for acting pissy with them.

So that's what can happen if you get all confrontational when there's really no reason to.
Posted by: Tom Servo at December 13, 2017 11:43 AM (k1TUh)

People can treat me poorly all day long and I can't detain them, threaten their livelihoods, threaten to kill them, etc and get away with it. Must be nice.

Posted by: CatchThirtyThr33 at December 13, 2017 01:56 PM (riRH3)

326 Pete, I'm usually sympathetic to cops in a situation where they have legitimate fears. But in this case, they didn't. The sergeant was yelling confusing orders. Put your hands over your head! Don't drop them or we will kill you! Now crawl! I'd have trouble with that sequence, and I'm not drunk.

I can see...sort of...that the real villain is the sergeant, not the shooter. The sergeant set the tone, and the shooter responded to that tone. To me, that's the real crime; the sergeant should have been de-escalating the situation, not making it worse.

The shooter pulled the trigger, five times. He's guilty. But the sergeant is complicit.

And here's the real problem, Pete: the guy shouldn't have had to be in the hallway at all. He did not commit a crime. He did not threaten anyone. It is perfectly lawful to have a few drinks and show off a pellet gun in a hotel room. The poor guy is in town to do some extermination work, meets some folks, shows off his equipment. We should be able to do that without being put into a situation where some nervous cop kills us because we did something completely normal--reach to pull up our falling pants.

Posted by: Gordon at December 13, 2017 02:04 PM (TYh1g)

327 242 And why do they get away with it?
---
Because instead of Americans, we have a population that tolerates government and its personnel.
Posted by: Methos at December 13, 2017 12:17 PM (XQvuQ)

THIS.

Posted by: CatchThirtyThr33 at December 13, 2017 02:14 PM (riRH3)

328 Powerful positions attract people who desire power over others. And being Police is a very powerful position. For someone with a limited skill set.

Being a bully starts young, I believe. There are precursors but they are not recognized as such.

If you realize that you're dealing with bully type cop:
Don't be a wise ass and don't give them the opportunity to perceive you as being a wise ass. Smile and PLAY DUMB.

Just say you have nothing to say or anything more to say and keep repeating that. Don't smirk, don't laugh. Look puzzled, bewildered. It will require an iron will and good acting skills to keep your mouth shut. (having been married will have given you practice at that you single people are on your own.)

I don't have an answer to them giving contradictory orders. Never happened to me so you're on your own.

Save the 5th amendment speech for when you know you're under arrest and after there's a few witnesses. (which of course doesn't help sometimes.)

Posted by: jakee308 at December 13, 2017 02:46 PM (M06hO)

329 And here's the real problem, Pete: the guy shouldn't
have had to be in the hallway at all. He did not commit a crime. He did
not threaten anyone. It is perfectly lawful to have a few drinks and
show off a pellet gun in a hotel room. The poor guy is in town to do
some extermination work, meets some folks, shows off his equipment. We
should be able to do that without being put into a situation where some
nervous cop kills us because we did something completely normal--reach
to pull up our falling pants.

Posted by: Gordon at December 13, 2017 02:04 PM (TYh1g)

No Gordon, here's the real problem: Anti-police rhetoric and hate is being stoked and fueled by the mainstream media and BLM. Cops are being gunned down in cold blood. Meanwhile Democrats and left wing supporters are demanding something be done about gun control. So calls about guns are being treated as high importance, and thus poor slob with a pellet gun finds himself facing tense police officers who believe the suspect is armed and dangerous.
And don't tell me the cop was yelling confusing orders. The orders were not all issued at once. They were issued one at a time; once one step was completed, the next was ordered. He ordered the suspect plain as day not to reach behind him. All that he was supposed to do was crawl forward, and the instructions were extremely simple. Crawl forward. The suspect didn't. I'm not saying he 'deserved' to die. But he clearly violated the officer's orders in the worst possible way. He came out of the kneeling position and reached behind his back. The cop isn't supposed to wait and see what he was reaching for. He's supposed to shoot if the suspect reaches behind him. It's sad that it turned out this way, but there's no way I can agree with the claim that the officer is guilty of murder.

Posted by: pete at December 13, 2017 03:07 PM (meg+g)

330 I think entirely too much time was spent ordering the suspects to render
themselves harmless so that the officers could take them into custody.
They could have likely taken both, but most certainly taken the man into
custody when he was positioned laying flat -- motionless -- on the
floor with feet crossed and hands behind his head. Instead of doing that
the officer issuing the commands forced him to follow orders which
would require him to make movements some of which could be questionable
from the officer's perspective.

Posted by: Dusty at December 13, 2017 01:33 PM (RZ7r7)

The reason they wanted them to crawl forward is because they had no idea if the room they just walked out of was empty or not. They aren't going to walk up to him and risk being ambushed while they try and cuff the guy in front of the doorway. It's standard tactics. Unfortunately for this guy, he picked the wrong time to not be 100% compliant with instructions.

Posted by: pete at December 13, 2017 03:18 PM (meg+g)

331 most excellent rant!

Posted by: Larry Schuff at December 13, 2017 03:23 PM (Jr6/C)

332 how about require cops be vets

Posted by: Avi at December 13, 2017 03:24 PM (+Anjo)

333 Tactics are a trade off. If they believed there was a possible shooter in the room, which is utterly reasonable, they should have didi-maued Shaver into cuffs, gotten his ass out of the way. and gotten control of the doorway. They spent entirely too much time dinking around with him. You can, if necessary, "safe" a suspect and get on with more pressing business. This doesn't even raise the issue of what about if a "shooter was in another room on the hallway.. This was just so poorly done on so many fronts..

Posted by: macleod at December 13, 2017 03:25 PM (I7blG)

334 318
Why do I get the feeling pete had some kleenexes and a bottle of lotion nearby when he watched that video for the 34th time?

Posted by: Stu Podaso at December 13, 2017 01:10 PM (l4NG+)

douchebag comment of the day

Posted by: pete at December 13, 2017 03:26 PM (meg+g)

335 Righteous rant. Both videos made me sick.

We live in a communist or fascist state today.

I site:
DOJ
These videos
Patriot Act
NSA surveillance without warrant
Trumped (see what I did there) up FISA warrants
BIG BUSINESS collaboration with Gov. on citizen spying
University Kangaroo courts
Accusations without due process destroying people
Admissions of CIA of use of false flags to start wars

Look, I am a soldier. I am by nature a rule and order guy, but this is out of control. When rule of law does not apply to all, there is no law, only anarchy.

Posted by: Dave Willmore at December 13, 2017 03:51 PM (pm688)

336 Cop violated citizens due process rights....Sessions ..you awake?

Posted by: torabora at December 13, 2017 04:08 PM (6dFYM)

337 Sometimes cops screw up. It sucks, and the ramifications are almost always severe - typically loss of freedom (however limited in duration), or loss of life. Improved training and policies are key, but are not a panacea - nor is necessarily raising hiring standards (although higher standards would be a good start, providing you can actually find someone to take the job). Cops respond as they are trained and as their policies require. The frustrating thing is that training and policies are almost uniformly driven by liability.

Near me, a police department and several officers were sued for the death of a 3 year old who drowned in a 3 inch wading pool in a city park. I forget the particulars of how mom or dad lost track of the kid. What I do know is that the officers involved moved heaven and earth to save the kid - CPR until the medics got there, and assisting until transport, but they were too late. The cops were sued under the theory that they provided inadequate medical attention. Maybe they did - they weren't medics. Nothing much came of the lawsuit - the city settled for a small sum, although there was no real liability to the city. It was just cheaper to pay off the parents then to go to court. But the city decided that the liability was too high - they issued a policy that said police officers are no longer allowed to provide ANY medical assistance to persons who are injured or sick, regardless of circumstances. Now, at accident scenes, the cops stand outside the vehicle and tell the injured to hold on because the ambulance is on the way.

My department used to unlock your car for you if you locked your keys in. We did it for free - saved the cost of calling a tow truck. You can probably guess why we don't do it anymore. Someone claimed, after the fact, that the cop unlocking their car for them damaged the power window and needed it replaced. Days later, the policy was changed to allow us to call a tow truck for lock-outs, but no other assistance.

This goes on daily across the country - the cop didn't arrest someone, or didn't shoot a fleeing felon, who later went on to kill their girlfriend or cause a car accident or whatever. The department gets sued. The city gets sued. Policy and training is changed. Police discretion, which used to be a prized attribute, has been whittled down to just about nothing. Cops learn by applying discretion to situations both big and small, and the lessons learned heuristically apply to nearly every situation a cop will encounter in his/her career. When policy and training don't allow for the application of discretion, sometimes known by the alias "common sense", you have some pretty twisted results. Of course there are good cops, and of course there are rotten ones. The same holds with any profession. But that brings me to my second point.

People don't seem to understand what it takes to catch and convict criminals. I had a prosecutor once who said that we don't catch the smart ones. That is just nearly always true. Nobody hates bad cops more than good cops. But lack of prosecution (or conviction) or personnel action isn't a thin blue line thing. Can you think of anyone "smarter" on how to get away with crime than a police officer? Seriously - beyond a reasonable doubt is an incredibly high standard - it doesn't take much to put reasonable doubt into the execution of a criminal act, and when the perpetrator is an expert in seeing how to do it, well, you get into quite a mess trying to prosecute. Firing is an order of magnitude easier, but still not easy by any stretch. Unions and policies (due to liability) typically make it a multi-offense project. We can argue whether or not this is right, or if there are improvements that can be made (there are) but this is reality. And none of it is on the cops. All of it is on the lawyers and the bureaucrats.

All this is to say that I take a certain amount of umbrage with the characterization of CBD in this "rant". It is easy to judge, and even easier to judge when you have no earthly idea of what in hell you are talking about. I have seen a tremendous amount of bad information being put out in the comments section (looking at you Garrett) by folks who think they know something about the law, and about police policies and how the cops should do their jobs - I think when the MSM does this we call it "fake news" around these parts. You want to know what it is like, without all of the training and effort that go into earning the badge, you could at least do a ride-along or two with your local department before you open your mouth and voice your ignorance. Yes there are bad cops - but the vast, vast majority are not bullies, are not psychopaths, and would dearly love (and try) to be rid of those that are. You want solutions? There are not any easy ones. It starts at the top - with the politicians and the lawyers. It starts with an informed citizenry - not a reactionary, knee-jerk call to arms that falls short of BLM rhetoric only in it's failure to mention race as a motivation.

CBD, if you haven't seen firefighters fighting a fire from outside the structure because it is too dangerous to enter then it is only because you are not paying attention on fire scenes. They're called basement savers for a reason. Firefighters will enter to save lives - once they have a 4 man RIT in place, plus an incident command established, plus a pumper and a water source and an actual entry team. This is not to take away from firefighters at all - firefighting is damned terrifying and it takes stones to be anywhere near something huge on fire and usually with something explosive on the inside. But if you want to spout off, let's talk about facts, not movies.

I have been a cop for 15 years. Never once lied under oath. Never once "fabricated" or planted evidence. Never once saw another officer do it either. I know some ex-cops that got fired for such things - but it never happened in front of me. I'm out of it now, because, at least in flyover states, you can't make a living at it - not sure who makes $125k/year around me, except maybe the chief of a decent sized town. When I got out of the academy, Chicago PD started at about $28k/year (2001). But I did deploy in support of OEF, with the BSM and the TBI to prove it. Did I see you over there somewhere, CBD?

Posted by: nonsubhomine at December 13, 2017 05:18 PM (gBND7)

338 Ive been a policeman in a town of about a half million for 21 years. I think the poster here, while making some points, is too broad in his diagnosis and his perceptions of what "used to be" is distorted.

There are probably a million cops in the US because its a very big country and it has a lot of people. Like any group of 1 million souls, you are going to have deviance. For most large groups, the deviance isn't televised as it happened.

A lot of these controversies in deadly force boil down to balancing risk. In my opinion, there is a few degrees correction necessary among police in the direction of tolerating risk, but that's easy for me to say because I have been in a lot of tense situations.

I think police are less socially adept than is optimal, but I see that as part of a larger undercurrent within the society from which our police are drawn. I also think there is some selective memory being used when imagining (and that's what it is) what police used to be like. That smiling jovial Irish copper everyone imagines is partly true. Yet that same cop would slap you right off the curb if you got mouthy and if you bucked up he would just smash your skull with a lead weight.

I think people should be wary of police contact and that our historically cultural chafing at authority is mostly healthy. Still, I also would argue that broad criticisms should be tempered with circumspection. If you want socially adept and people high in conscientiousness to be police officers, branding the entire workforce as power mad, sadistic, morons is perhaps counterproductive. Who wants to be identified with that for 20-30 years?

Respectfully

Posted by: TJ at December 13, 2017 06:18 PM (2rLdo)

339 Laws are for suckers in America today.

So sad to say that. One only has to watch the FBI management thug show from Mueller, Rosenstein, and their criminal associates.

Most LE officials are good, but the evil ones are protected by the system.

What is this cop's name, address, perhaps a picture?

Let nature take its course.

This guy got away with slaughter. He does not deserve another breath of air.

Posted by: LeftCoast Dawg at December 13, 2017 06:38 PM (UsCnO)

340 "Cops are expendable. Soldiers are expendable. We honor them, we respect
them, we give them flag draped caskets and 21 gun salutes because they
are expendable, because they place their fragile bodies between the good
many and the evil few."

The issue in question is whether "Civilian lives are more important than cop lives"

If that were true, we'd never bother with "flag draped caskets and 21 gun salutes".
We'd just stuff them in ground somewhere and laugh at the idiots for giving their lives.

If you really believe that their lives are worth less than the people they fight for then you have no fucking idea why we honor their sacrifice.

Posted by: rayj at December 13, 2017 10:20 PM (pI/IV)

341
"It's fucking special snowflakes with military weapons, body armor, and fucking immunity from the law.
"

I didn't catch that.
So you'd deny the police body armor?

Fuck you very much Viking1865

Posted by: rayj at December 13, 2017 10:26 PM (pI/IV)

342 CBD,

Is there anyway you could contact me? I'd like to offer a point by point rebuttal that isn't emotionally charged (the way this comments section is going ATM). Don't want to put it here unless you insist, as the daywalkers got ahold of this and it seems to be an echo chamber (with some exception) as of now.

Email in nic.

Posted by: X3n0ph0n at December 13, 2017 11:01 PM (dh/GA)

343 You write - And the so-called "honest cops," who supposedly make up 99.9% of the police in America? Bullshit. They are crooks too. Because every time they turn their backs on the criminality of one of their fellow officers they are breaking the law.

I respond - THANKS FOR SAYING IT!

I agree completely.

Posted by: Pastorius at December 14, 2017 12:06 AM (gMAUH)

344 I have been a cop for 15 years. Never once lied under oath. Never once "fabricated" or planted evidence. Never once saw another officer do it either. I know some ex-cops that got fired for such things - but it never happened in front of me. I'm out of it now, because, at least in flyover states, you can't make a living at it - not sure who makes $125k/year around me, except maybe the chief of a decent sized town. When I got out of the academy, Chicago PD started at about $28k/year (2001). But I did deploy in support of OEF, with the BSM and the TBI to prove it. Did I see you over there somewhere, CBD?
Posted by: nonsubhomine at December 13, 2017 05:18 PM (gBND7

Damn. A cop AND a vet? That makes you morally superior to all. And COMPLETELY above ANY criticism.

(As a vet who is NOT above criticism, that's a bunch of crap. Mr. McCain was a POW and served his country admirably but that doesn't excuse his actions in the Senate.)

Posted by: CatchThirtyThr33 at December 14, 2017 12:44 AM (kX0fm)

345 Let's face it: police officers believe the citizens in fact work for THEM. They DEMAND ABSOLUTE TOTAL OBEDIENCE AND RESPECT from the citizens they look down on while doing all that they can to spit in the faces of the citizenry...all while whining "nobody likes meeeeeeee!!!"

In order for things to change:

No police officer anywhere should be allowed to join a union anywhere for any reason. Professional organizations make sense, but not unions.

The cops are going to have to grudgingly accept the fact that they should at least pretend to respect those who are paying their salaries.

People need to stop making up things for the cops to do. It's not necessary to call upon them for every damn time a kitty kat winds up in a tree. When laws are passed by legislatures, we have to understand that they will then need to be enforced.

we should acknowledge that where the police nail it (for the most part) is in their role: the investigation of crime. They are not here to prevent crime, to interdict in crime, to protect the public, to serve the public, to keep us safe. They are there TO INVESTIGATE CRIME. (And politicians of cash strapped jurisdictions use them to fundraise. They can stop that nonsense as well. And it should be noted that even though your local PD might not have a quota system for traffic tickets, the cities that employ them often budget X amount of dollars to be raised via traffic tickets, thereby giving their PDs a quota system by default.)

As Dr. Sowell says, "Anyone with...a craving for power is the last person to trust with power."

It's on the entire population - cops and the citizenry alike - to relearn the difference between what is LEGAL and what is MORAL. And raise our kids accordingly and hold each other accountable accordingly.

The population should be more heavily armed and individuals should be prepared to defend themselves at all times - this may just yet lead to this country going from 900K cops to, say, 450K. And just possibly we might have a safer country at that.

Posted by: CatchThirtyThr33 at December 14, 2017 01:03 AM (kX0fm)

346 Damn. A cop AND a vet? That makes you morally superior to all. And COMPLETELY above ANY criticism.

(As a vet who is NOT above criticism, that's a bunch of crap. Mr.
McCain was a POW and served his country admirably but that doesn't
excuse his actions in the Senate.)

Posted by: CatchThirtyThr33 at December 14, 2017 12:44 AM (kX0fm)

Never once said anything about moral superiority. Never once said anything about criticism. My response was to CBD, who seems to think that all cops everywhere would just shit and go to pieces if they had to be "real men" fighting in Afghanistan. Fact is, at least in my neck of the woods, probably 25-30% of the cops are, in fact, combat vets. Which ought to tell you something about the type of people who are actually drawn to law enforcement. The current meme of cops as power-hungry, sadistic thugs with a Napoleon complex has been ridden to death, and is demonstrably untrue.
As stated above, there are some deviants within the ranks - you will have that anywhere. And substantial improvements in hiring practices, policies, and administrative rules should be made to make it easier to get rid of the bad apples. I don't think anyone is arguing against that. However, there are also morally compromised veterans (and, evidently, vets with reading comprehension challenges). And no one is seriously making the claim that vets as a group are, without fail, a scourge on the society that they serve.

Posted by: nonsubhomine at December 14, 2017 07:57 AM (Bl2s7)

347 "And the so-called 'honest cops,' who supposedly make up 99.9% of the police in America? Bullshit. They are crooks too. Because every time they turn their backs on the criminality of one of their fellow officers they are breaking the law."

Last year a female white bartender won a large award from the City of Chicago. Why? Because while working in a cop bar a drunk cop, infuriated because she cut him off, beat the s**t out of her while a bunch of other cops in the bar watched. Fortunately for her the whole thing was caught on the bar's surveillance tapes, because the other cops there wouldn't talk otherwise.

I get it - their lives depend on each other acting without doubt that the other cops will back them up. But some behavior is - or SHOULD BE - clearly out of bounds.

Posted by: RonF at December 14, 2017 03:52 PM (l8nW6)

348 For those of you citing the latest Chicago incident:

LaQuan McDonald was high and had a knife. He was wandering down the middle of the street. Concerned citizens rightfully called the cops. Cops order LaQuan to drop the knife. He does not do so and starts to wander away from them, clearly disoriented and not immediately threatening anyone. One of the cops shoots him. Sixteen (16) times, almost all of which were after he had fallen to the ground. Cop stops shooting when he runs out of ammo and is in the process of reloading when one of the other cops on the scene goes over to him and makes sure the shooting is over.

LaQuan dies of his wounds. The shooter files a report claiming that LaQuan threatened him with the knife. The other cops on the scene file a report backing up the shooter's story. Then a video of the incident is handed over to the Cook County prosecutor's office. Reputedly at the behest of Rahm Emanuel, the Mayor of Chicago (previously Pres. Obama's Chief of Staff), the video is withheld from public view until after the mayoral election. After that, and after a lawsuit, the video is released, showing that LaQuan never threatened anyone with that knife after the cops showed up, was stumbling away from the cops aimlessly when the shooting started, and was on the ground when most of the shots were fired.

Had that video been released before the election, Rahm Emanuel would not be the current Mayor of Chicago. The shooter is being tried for murder. Those of the other cops who have not retired (apparently a couple did right after the video was released so as to save their pensions) are going through the process of being thrown off the Chicago Police force and very possibly losing their pensions.

And if someone hadn't whipped out their phone and taken a video of this all those cops would be on the force still.

Posted by: RonF at December 14, 2017 04:39 PM (l8nW6)

349 R.I.P.

https://www.odmp.org/

Posted by: PrairieGirl at December 14, 2017 10:02 PM (IB/dD)

350 https://www.odmp.org/

Posted by: PrairieGirl at December 14, 2017 10:25 PM (IB/dD)

351 This thread is days old now. But it should be noted that constant refrains about Shaver moving his hand behind him (to pull up his pants) are moot. Pete keeps saying that that motion caused his death. Probably true, but as he started to move his hand back--why didn't the cop yell (since he liked to yell anyway) to freeze. If the 6 cops saw his hand moving back and not forward, why not yell--"FREEZE." Then remind him that he has to keep his hands in front. They let him move his hand back to pull up his pants. Pulling your pants up is reflexive movement.

No one knows how they will react when a gun is being aimed at them (probably multiple guns since there were 6 officers there and I doubt most of them were just standing there unarmed). Are you aware of every movement you make under a stressful situation? Most people are extremely nervous speaking in public. Once their speech is over, most who are nervous about doing probably would have no idea about any of the movements they made during the speech.

Having a gun pointed at you and telling you that one mistake will result in being shot--that is about 100 times more stressful than public speaking.

Posted by: brio at December 15, 2017 07:52 PM (IfBTr)

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