Remember Pearl Harbor

WATCH: Pearl Harbor vet bursts into song during ceremony with President Trump pic.twitter.com/UTQJ1u8ch9
— NBC News (@NBCNews) December 7, 2017

Dave In Texas used to do the war remembrance threads. He was good at it. I'm not, and I don't have much knowledge about WWII at all.

A friend told me about one of the most famous naval battles of WWII -- yes, I confess, I didn't know about it; I know WWII battles like I know shelving -- and I thought I'd post about that.

This has nothing to do with Pearl Harbor, except it was a major sea battle that came about due to Pearl Harbor. This happened in 1944.

Most of you guys are well-acquainted with the Battle of Leyte Gulf and Taffy 3's heroic David vs. Goliath stand, but here's the gist of it.

The Battle off Samar was the centermost action of the Battle of Leyte Gulf, one of the largest naval battles in history, which took place in the Philippine Sea off Samar Island, in the Philippines on October 25, 1944. As the only major action in the larger battle where the Americans were largely unprepared against the opposing forces, it has been cited by historians as one of the greatest military mismatches in naval history.
Adm. William Halsey, Jr. was lured into taking his powerful 3rd Fleet after a decoy fleet, leaving only three escort carrier groups of the 7th Fleet. The escort carriers and destroyer escorts which had been designed to protect slow convoys from submarine attack had been repurposed to attack ground targets, and had few torpedoes as they could normally rely on Halsey's fleet to protect them from any threats from armored warships. A Japanese surface force of battleships and cruisers, battered earlier in the larger battle and thought to have been in retreat, instead turned around unobserved and encountered the northernmost of the three groups, Task Unit 77.4.3 ("Taffy 3"), commanded by Rear Admiral Clifton Sprague. Taffy 3's seven destroyers and destroyer escorts possessed neither the firepower nor armor to effectively oppose the 23 ships of the Japanese force, but nevertheless desperately attacked with 5 in (127 mm)/38 cal guns and torpedoes to cover the retreat of their slow "jeep" carriers.

So it was a colossal mismatch. Not only did the Americans have fewer ships, but their ships were positively dinky compared to the well-armored and heavily armed Japanese fleet.

And yet... Sometimes audacity, aggression, guts, and couple of lucky breaks may actually back down a much bigger opponent.

That's a short take (15 minutes). I believe this link is to the full 45 minute History channel episode about the engagement.

Posted by: Ace at 06:03 PM

Comments

(Jump to bottom of comments)

1 1st God bless the vets

Posted by: Hands Solo at December 07, 2017 06:00 PM (EzdLW)

2 Now we get bombed with Hentai.

Posted by: Vivid Video at December 07, 2017 06:01 PM (QGf75)

3 My mom was a combat nurse on a hospital support ship during the Battle of Leyte.

Posted by: TexasJew at December 07, 2017 06:01 PM (AmZ/8)

4 I make a real funny comment after I get kleenex and blow my nose.

Posted by: rhennigantx at December 07, 2017 06:02 PM (BtQd4)

5 https://tinyurl.com/ybqkb9su
The USS Ward found under the ocean, the first ship to fire at the Japanese in WWII

Posted by: Skip at December 07, 2017 06:02 PM (aC6Sd)

6 Awww....what a great moment!

Posted by: Tami at December 07, 2017 06:03 PM (Enq6K)

7 The Japanese also had a plethora of well anchored shelving.

Posted by: garrett at December 07, 2017 06:04 PM (GQu4B)

8 There's a guy on the Book Thread who talks up the book
The Last Stand of the Tin Can Sailors: The Extraordinary World War II Story of the U.S. Navy's Finest Hour

The author describes the Battle of Samar as the greatest upset in the history of naval warfare

Posted by: Ignoramus at December 07, 2017 06:04 PM (cAXIk)

9 The local radio news this morning referred to the attack as a "preemptive strike" rather than a sneak attack

Posted by: josephistan at December 07, 2017 06:04 PM (ANIFC)

10
Never met him but wifey's dad was on board the USS Nevada 76 years ago. We have cassette tapes of him telling his story.

Moving beyond description.

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at December 07, 2017 06:05 PM (mbhDw)

11 Actually saw on last thread someone looking for it, its at Fox news
foxnews USS Ward ship that fired first American shots world war ii found-in-philippines

Posted by: Skip at December 07, 2017 06:05 PM (aC6Sd)

12 Some of the soy latte drinkers over on CNN twitter are gettin' their Wormtongue on. So condescending to the veterans he is using as a prop, they say.

Posted by: boulder terlit hobo at December 07, 2017 06:05 PM (6FqZa)

13 You know, Trump wasn't even in my top 5 favorite Presidential candidates (but I did vote for him) but I sure do grin like an idiot watching him be a president I can be proud of.

I'm even getting used to his hair.

Posted by: Emmie -- please, no public display of insanity at December 07, 2017 06:05 PM (/A+Cl)

14 I have the strange impression PJT actually wants to honour veterans.

Posted by: Northernlurker, glad to be only lurking at December 07, 2017 06:05 PM (nBr1j)

15 thank you for this thread, ace

Posted by: votermom pimping great books! at December 07, 2017 06:05 PM (hMwEB)

16 I never knew there was a "Remember Pearl Harbor": song. But I'm not surprised. Good on the PH vet remembering the lyrics and not being shy about singing in front of everyone.

Posted by: Hands Solo at December 07, 2017 06:05 PM (EzdLW)

17 The book Last Stand of the Tin Can Sailors should be required reading in every US history class.

Posted by: CrotchetyOldJarhead at December 07, 2017 06:05 PM (XGGts)

18 so is anyone going to faint because a solemn ceremony was marked by outbursts of joy and/or mirth and/or humor?

Posted by: porg herder at December 07, 2017 06:05 PM (TlvUt)

19 One of the very few times I ever heard my Father say something confrontational to anyone...

He was a WW2 Vet.. Signalman and was put aboard merchant ships in convoys in the Pacific...

Watched Kamikaze attacks happen.... and had a couple of very close calls...

At a family function in the 80's... a distant relation (much younger) started to joke about 'getting bombed on Kamikazes'...

My Father looked him dead in the eye and just said 'Not funny'...

/Salute, to him and all other Veterans.

Posted by: Don Quixote... whose Son is the Son, of a Son, of a Sailor at December 07, 2017 06:06 PM (NgKpN)

20
On local NYC news, they interviewed a 96 year old survivor who was so full of piss and vinegar. Refuses to forget or forgive.

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at December 07, 2017 06:06 PM (mbhDw)

21 12 Some of the soy latte drinkers over on CNN twitter are gettin' their Wormtongue on. So condescending to the veterans he is using as a prop, they say.
Posted by: boulder terlit hobo at December 07, 2017 06:05 PM (6FqZa)

No, no, no. Drinking out of your skulls will be an example of using a prop.

Posted by: Northernlurker, glad to be only lurking at December 07, 2017 06:07 PM (nBr1j)

22 The British used to routinely trounce the French with smaller, lighter forces. It became so presumed that the British would win this kind of fight that doing so was taken for granted -- if you would hold back from such a fight, you were considered possibly cowardly.

Skill, training, courage, and raw mean combat spirit can go a long ways. The French built beautiful ships and could sail them well, but weren't as mean and tough as the British. Plus, their gunnery wasn't as good.

And really, how do you follow up a 90 year old war hero singing an uplifting patriotic song? Salute.

Posted by: Christopher R Taylor at December 07, 2017 06:07 PM (39g3+)

23 If you guys haven't seen it yet, last year a USS Arizona survivor finally published a memoir: All The Gallant Men

I linked to it this morning in my blog (check my nic)

Posted by: votermom pimping great books! at December 07, 2017 06:07 PM (hMwEB)

24 Thanks for this. Both my dad and father in law joined the Navy when very young. Neither left the US as the war was over when they got their assignments. FIL did 'fight' in the battle of Alcatraz. My dad made Ensign and never got closer to the ocean than Kilgore, TX.

Posted by: DanMan at December 07, 2017 06:07 PM (XTiHL)

25 [Jim Nabors voice]

Surprahz! Surprahz!

Koranimals rioting in Palestine over Jerusalem announcement.

Posted by: logprof at December 07, 2017 06:08 PM (GsAUU)

26 11 Actually saw on last thread someone looking for it, its at Fox news
foxnews USS Ward ship that fired first American shots world war ii found-in-philippines
Posted by: Skip at December 07, 2017 06:05 PM (aC6Sd)

Minnfidel. And amazingly, the Ward was sunk on December 7th 1944. Weird.

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at December 07, 2017 06:08 PM (mbhDw)

27 Some of the soy latte drinkers over on CNN twitter are gettin' their Wormtongue on. So condescending to the veterans he is using as a prop, they say.

Really? Standing up old vets for a political ceremony was theater? Unprecedented!

Posted by: Christopher R Taylor at December 07, 2017 06:08 PM (39g3+)

28 This is another difference between Trump and Obama. I think Trump genuinely enjoys people. I think he likes doing events celebrating people and their accomplishments. Some people I know keep referring to Trump as a narcissist. Genuine narcissists can't appreciate the accomplishments of other people nor do they have sense of humor . I don't think Obama does,

Posted by: FenelonSpoke at December 07, 2017 06:08 PM (8+Ozj)

29 Ask any kid you know if they understand Dec 7?

Posted by: Tinfoilbaby at December 07, 2017 06:08 PM (6Ll1u)

30 25 [Jim Nabors voice]

Surprahz! Surprahz!

Koranimals rioting in Palestine over Jerusalem announcement.
Posted by: logprof at December 07, 2017 06:08 PM (GsAUU)

Heh. I was handing out candy.

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at December 07, 2017 06:09 PM (mbhDw)

31 Leyte Gulf seems like a nice palate cleanser after watching "A Bridge Too Far" / reading Operation Market Derp

Posted by: boulder terlit hobo at December 07, 2017 06:09 PM (6FqZa)

32 And now thanks to our last miserable excuse for a CIC we have a navy who can't even get out of the way of a cargo barge on the open sea.

Posted by: Lily(Formerly of Hot Air) now of AoSHQ, Assassin in the Night at December 07, 2017 06:09 PM (vivhj)

33 Another surprise:

Bing has a nice picture of the memorial.

Google has jack shit.

Posted by: logprof at December 07, 2017 06:10 PM (GsAUU)

34 25 Posted by: logprof at December 07, 2017 06:08 PM (GsAUU)

A) idea for Muzzy clothing line: Donna Koran
B) Where's Palestine? Texas, right?

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at December 07, 2017 06:10 PM (mbhDw)

35 My dad joined the Navy on 8/23/44 at the age of 17. Guessing he was
pissed. I have his original documents and ID cards. I miss him.

Posted by: Peaches at December 07, 2017 06:10 PM (14URa)

36 I read At Dawn We Slept when it came out, a history of the attack. Author's thesis is that FDR expected an attack on the Philippines, but no one considered an aerial attack on Pearl as it was just too audacious.

Posted by: Ignoramus at December 07, 2017 06:10 PM (cAXIk)

37 Koranimals rioting in Palestine over Jerusalem announcement.

Mark "the putz" Ruffalo rushed to Twitter to call the pernicious Joo in Israel to show restraint:

"Isreal, please show restraint in the face of these protests. This is a terrible blow to any hope for peace or a life beyond apartheid for your neighbors."

Yes, he misspelled Israel. I guess its too much to ask some Hollywood jackwagon to understand that -el ending has significance.

Posted by: Christopher R Taylor at December 07, 2017 06:10 PM (39g3+)

38 They buried a sailor from my home town at Arlington yesterday. He was lost with the Oklahoma at Pearl Harbor.

https://tinyurl.com/y956cxqd

Posted by: tu3031 at December 07, 2017 06:10 PM (O5Q3r)

39 31 Leyte Gulf seems like a nice palate cleanser after watching "A Bridge Too Far" / reading Operation Market Derp
Posted by: boulder terlit hobo at December 07, 2017 06:09 PM (6FqZa)

Monty's total cock up. Patton was on his way through the Siegfried line and was ordered to stop. Then again, the Battle of Metz was tough and the Hurtgen Forest was a slaughter.

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at December 07, 2017 06:11 PM (mbhDw)

40 Remember the 33 crew and 2 soldiers of the freighter SS Cynthia Olson too. First US ship the IJN (a J sub) sank on December 7.

Posted by: Rex B at December 07, 2017 06:11 PM (9XhZq)

41 Rear Admiral Ziggy Sprague

Posted by: votermom pimping great books! at December 07, 2017 06:11 PM (hMwEB)

42 Minnfidel. And amazingly, the Ward was sunk on December 7th 1944. Weird.
Posted by: J.J. Sefton at December 07, 2017 06:08 PM

Thanks for posting that J.J. My wife's Great Uncle was on the Ward, he died many years ago but the story has always fascinated me a bit. It was manned by a bunch of reservists from Minny. They found it just a couple days ago! The gun is on display at the state capitol.

Posted by: Minnfidel at December 07, 2017 06:11 PM (VAlay)

43 And yet... Sometimes audacity, aggression, guts, and couple of lucky breaks may actually back down a much bigger opponent.

*Taking notes*

Posted by: Phat Boi With Nuke ICBM at December 07, 2017 06:12 PM (ajiE5)

44 Four cookbooks on order, 1 kindle pre-ordered. Thanks to Blue Bell and Weasel for the effort. I can't wait to find out what's in it.

Posted by: flounder, rebel, vulgarian, deplorable, winner at December 07, 2017 06:12 PM (tbOMB)

45 >>Never met him but wifey's dad was on board the USS Nevada 76 years ago. We have cassette tapes of him telling his story.

Moving beyond description.

Posted by: J.J. Sefton

Nevada's "run for the sea" at Pearl Harbor is a great story.

Posted by: Aviator at December 07, 2017 06:12 PM (2cuLk)

46 Genuine narcissists can't appreciate the accomplishments of other people nor do they have sense of humor.

That's what gets me. Trump has all the outward appearance of a massive narcissist. He branded his name. He has a tower made of gold with a huge TRUMP on the outside. The guy seems narcissistic as hell on first pass.

But he doesn't act like one. A narcissist has to turn everything into being about them. They cannot allow anyone, ever, to have the limelight or be more important than them. They don't care about anyone else, or find them interesting at any level.

Obama is a classic narcissist, everything literally is about him. Trump just seems to be playing a game; he's using the name for earnings and to accomplish goals rather than out of some psychosis or compulsion.

Posted by: Christopher R Taylor at December 07, 2017 06:13 PM (39g3+)

47 I thank God we have a president who loves his country and will stand up for all of us. God bless our Veterans.

Posted by: USNtakim prfoundly deplorable! at December 07, 2017 06:13 PM (0OmEj)

48 ...and I don't have much knowledge about WWII at all.

Well, Ace, I'm here to help! Take the Allies plus the points. The point spread may look impossible to cover here on the afternoon of Dec. 7, 1941, but trust me!

Posted by: Time Traveler Gref at December 07, 2017 06:13 PM (AMIL/)

49 It helped the Japanese Commander that tangled with Taffy 3 thought he was fighting a much larger force. He had no idea how close he came to causing some real problems.

Gen. George B. McClellan would approve.

Posted by: William Eaton at December 07, 2017 06:13 PM (MuTTO)

50 It was supposed to be an all-or-nothing throw of the dice by the Japanese navy and the commander of that attack group got cold feet. The Japanese navy was a tough opponent but their inability to conceive of a plan that didn't involve Rube Goldberg complexity always hurt them.

Posted by: WOPR (now with chainsaw bayonets) at December 07, 2017 06:13 PM (56r43)

51 Koranimals rioting in Palestine over Jerusalem announcement.
Posted by: logprof at December 07, 2017 06:08 PM (GsAUU)

Someone left the Gates of Hell open again, dammit.

Posted by: Beel Z. Bub at December 07, 2017 06:14 PM (EzdLW)

52 45
Nevada's "run for the sea" at Pearl Harbor is a great story.
Posted by: Aviator at December 07, 2017 06:12 PM (2cuLk)

When the order came to abandon ship, he said if you jumped over the right side of the ship you lived. If you jumped over the left side, you died.

He was missing for 2 days and they sent a telegram home that he was presumed dead. Can't even imagine.

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at December 07, 2017 06:14 PM (mbhDw)

53 Posted by: Christopher R Taylor at December 07, 2017 06:13 PM (39g3+)

Well stated, Christopher.

Posted by: FenelonSpoke at December 07, 2017 06:14 PM (8+Ozj)

54 "I think Trump genuinely enjoys people. I think he likes doing events celebrating people and their accomplishments."

Trump is an extrovert, Obama an introvert, and Hillary is a severe misanthrope.

Posted by: Ignoramus at December 07, 2017 06:15 PM (cAXIk)

55 49 It helped the Japanese Commander that tangled with Taffy 3 thought he was fighting a much larger force. He had no idea how close he came to causing some real problems.

Gen. George B. McClellan would approve.
Posted by: William Eaton at December 07, 2017 06:13 PM (MuTTO)

Kurita or Toyoda, IIRC.

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at December 07, 2017 06:15 PM (mbhDw)

56 The minesweeper my grandad served on in WWI was at Pearl tied up at Coaling Dock A. One of the crew used the deck gun. That ugly little boat was at Leyte, too. Survived the war, it did.

Posted by: 13times at December 07, 2017 06:15 PM (WHVu+)

57 This post inspires me to double-down on my previous double-down of support of my government.

It's like I'm watching a whole new Meuller-3 take on the Imperial Federalese, protecting Task Force Sessions.

Sorry - got weepy for a minute.

Posted by: JohnWheat at December 07, 2017 06:16 PM (qE08n)

58 Hurtgen Forest was a slaughter

One of the most horrendous battles in the war, the kind of battle that would topple an administration these days.

Posted by: Christopher R Taylor at December 07, 2017 06:16 PM (39g3+)

59 Grandma Aspirin Factory was a 16 year old army dependent running supplies to first responders.

There was no safe space.

Posted by: Mr Aspirin Factory at December 07, 2017 06:16 PM (WlG0e)

60
Did they really believe that Jerusalem would EVER be given away to these fake palestinians?

Posted by: Soothsayer SLX Pro Series II Platinum Turbo at December 07, 2017 06:16 PM (UVCy2)

61 41 Rear Admiral Ziggy Sprague
Posted by: votermom pimping great books! at December 07, 2017 06:11 PM (hMwEB)

He played a mean guitar

Posted by: josephistan at December 07, 2017 06:17 PM (ANIFC)

62 and I don't have much knowledge about WWII at all.

Well, Ace, I'm here to help! Take the Allies plus the points. The point spread may look impossible to cover here on the afternoon of Dec. 7, 1941, but trust me!
Posted by: Time Traveler Gref at December 07, 2017 06:13 PM (AMIL/)

Looking like an early night for the Allies. Axis: 95% probability of winning.

Posted by: 1941 Nate Silver at December 07, 2017 06:17 PM (EzdLW)

63
Christ Almighty, these people aren't even really "palestinians!!"

It's a fraud. They're all frauds.

Posted by: Soothsayer SLX Pro Series II Platinum Turbo at December 07, 2017 06:17 PM (UVCy2)

64 Posted by: Ignoramus at December 07, 2017 06:15 PM (cAXIk)

Obama may be an introvert. He's a narcissistic one. Being an introvert doesn't mean you don't appreciate people; It just needs you need lot of time to recharge your batteries by being by yourself.

Posted by: FenelonSpoke at December 07, 2017 06:17 PM (8+Ozj)

65 54 "I think Trump genuinely enjoys people. I think he likes doing events celebrating people and their accomplishments."

Trump is an extrovert, Obama an introvert, and Hillary is a severe misanthrope.
Posted by: Ignoramus at December 07, 2017 06:15 PM (cAXIk)

Obama is an arrogant prick and as we say in Yiddish an "oberchochem, or know-it-all. Narcissist personality disorder. And with an MFM willing and eager to feed his outsized ego, a recipe for complete disaster.

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at December 07, 2017 06:18 PM (mbhDw)

66 Monty's total cock up. Patton was on his way through the Siegfried line and was ordered to stop. Then again, the Battle of Metz was tough and the Hurtgen Forest was a slaughter.

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at December 07, 2017 06:11 PM (mbhDw)

Monty never should have received the go-ahead. He was never a make a dash for it general. Yeah, Metz was definitely a slow-up on Patton and not his best moment. The Hurtgen should have been bypassed.

Posted by: WOPR (now with chainsaw bayonets) at December 07, 2017 06:18 PM (56r43)

67 I was with VF-24 from 1968-1972, which was a fighter squadron assigned to the USS Hancock (CVA-19).

Hancock took a kamikaze hit in Leyte Gulf, which badly damaged her, but she was rebuilt to become the first (I think) angle-deck carriers.

Problem was that one of the propeller shafts was unbalanced from the damage, couldn't be replaced, so any time we made > 25 knots (which was for days between Hawaii and the Phillipines), you felt like you were riding a 55 ton vibrator.

Posted by: jwb7605 at December 07, 2017 06:19 PM (DofIg)

68
Shelving is literally hitler.

Posted by: Guy Mohawk at December 07, 2017 06:19 PM (r+sAi)

69 62
Looking like an early night for the Allies. Axis: 95% probability of winning.
Posted by: 1941 Nate Silver at December 07, 2017 06:17 PM (EzdLW)

Vidkun Psaki and Benito Harf agree.

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at December 07, 2017 06:19 PM (mbhDw)

70 This is in no way meant to be disparaging but I can't imagine not having much knowledge of WWII. If nothing else, it makes for fascinating reading. Just my half cent.

Posted by: Notorious BFD at December 07, 2017 06:19 PM (Tyii7)

71 The story on the USS Ward is even better on the Pioneer Press. Anyway. I just had a bone chilling, barf inducing thought. You just know that today's PC world they will name a ship after Barry. (barf) USS SCOAMF. Fuck,

Posted by: Minnfidel at December 07, 2017 06:19 PM (VAlay)

72 My Grandfather served on the Arizona, he said she was the most beautiful ship he ever served on, He was discharged in the 1930's and he told me when he found out about the attack he threw out all of his Pictures because all his friends were dead, my Dad told me that he cried when he heard it on the Radio.

When I was boy we went to visit the Memorial and my Grandfather was pissed to see all these Japanese tourists taking pictures, He said I hope you get some good photo's of my dead friends, I am ashamed to say I was embarrassed by his actions, but now I am older I understand why he was angry, he felt they were dishonoring his friends by posing for photo's on the Memorial.

My Grandfather came back from shore leave with his friend dragging him up the gangplank, he drank some bad hooch and the Dr on Board pumped his stomach and saved his life.

He also would crack walnuts by wedging them in between the super structure in between waves.

He was a foreman for PPL and they had him deferred so he could string up more power lines for the Factories

Posted by: Patrick From Ohio at December 07, 2017 06:19 PM (dKiJG)

73 67 ...you felt like you were riding a 55 ton vibrator.
Posted by: jwb7605 at December 07, 2017 06:19 PM (DofIg)

Isn't this really the story of Obama?

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at December 07, 2017 06:20 PM (mbhDw)

74 Thanks ace. Yep Dave in Texas never missed a major US WWII anniversary, which was nice.

The battle in question was the last time a substantial conventional US force fought, badly outnumbered. And prevailed, in terms of the mission.

Even though I've read everything I can find on the events, I'll never quite understand Adm. Kurita's decision. The forces engaged in this operation were not expected to return - this was hoped to be an operation with major impact (slow the conquest of the Philippines, inflict huge losses on the US), but a sacrificial one. And indeed the two other Japanese force elements, the northern and southern forces, got annihilated.

So why turn back, just because you sense a major US force nearby? Especially since the "decisive battle" concept was the (dubious) centerpiece of Japanese naval doctrine at the time.

Posted by: rhomboid at December 07, 2017 06:20 PM (QDnY+)

75 49 It helped the Japanese Commander that tangled with Taffy 3 thought he was fighting a much larger force. He had no idea how close he came to causing some real problems.

Gen. George B. McClellan would approve.
Posted by: William Eaton at December 07, 2017 06:13 PM (MuTTO)

I've gotten tangled in taffy many times. Never came out on top.

Posted by: Joe Biden at December 07, 2017 06:20 PM (ANIFC)

76 There are other books to read besides Last Stand of the Tin Can Sailors about the Battle of Leyte Gulf.

Edwin P. Hoyt - The Battle of Leyte Gulf and The Men of the Gambier Bay are two to look into.

At Close Quarters discusses the PT boat operations in Surigao Strait.

Also Theodore Roscoe's United States Destroyer Operations in World War II covers all areas of this battle including the dire straits of Taffy 3.

"For over an hour Johnston blazed away at the Jap heavies, trading 5-inch salvos for 6-inch barrages that gradually hammered her superstructure to rubbish and turned her hull into a stove. Below decks men were cremated in clogged passages, or roasted in red-hot compartments. Topside, they vanished in incandescent splurts of high-explosives."
pg 367. Abridged version Tin Cans. Theodore Roscoe. Bantam Books. 1960.

Posted by: Anna Puma (HQCaR) at December 07, 2017 06:20 PM (mB06r)

77
This would be like the muslim salamis in Minnesota claiming Minneapolis as their holy capital.

And the rest of the World going along with their outrageous and baseless claim.

Posted by: Soothsayer SLX Pro Series II Platinum Turbo at December 07, 2017 06:20 PM (UVCy2)

78 Saw a interesting artical somewhere today the 2 biggest blunders in military history the 2nd was the attack on Pearl Harbor, the first it suggested was Hitler invading Russia. Both countries were destroyed but Japan at least changed into a proper goverment. Germany was destroyed, lost vast amount of territory, fell into communism in half and only in last few years joined together

Posted by: Skip at December 07, 2017 06:21 PM (aC6Sd)

79 I highly recommend the Last Stand of the Tincan Sailors. They went against, among others, the battleship Yamato. 18.1 inch guns. Each main battery turret weighed more than any of the destroyers that attacked it.

Posted by: Winston at December 07, 2017 06:21 PM (XlcO7)

80 Grandma Aspirin Factory was a 16 year old army dependent running supplies to first responders.

There was no safe space.

Posted by: Mr Aspirin Factory at December 07, 2017 06:16 PM (WlG0e)
---
i hope she sued for damages...

Posted by: redc1c4 at December 07, 2017 06:21 PM (QcCSi)

81 72 Posted by: Patrick From Ohio at December 07, 2017 06:19 PM (dKiJG)

Just wow. My dad and mom had the same reaction when they saw Japanese tourists at the memorial.

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at December 07, 2017 06:21 PM (mbhDw)

82 He was discharged in the 1930's and he told me when he found out about the attack he threw out all of his Pictures because all his friends were dead, my Dad told me that he cried when he heard it on the Radio.

Yeah that would be awfully hard to take. That's one thing about the Navy. When a ship goes down, its a lot of men all at once, and they're all dead. And they didn't dice easy, either. All at once.

Posted by: Christopher R Taylor at December 07, 2017 06:21 PM (39g3+)

83 When the order came to abandon ship, he said if you jumped over the right side of the ship you lived. If you jumped over the left side, you died.

He was missing for 2 days and they sent a telegram home that he was presumed dead. Can't even imagine.

______________

One of my hubby's great uncles was picked up and taken out to sea. They were under strict radio silence and at sea for months.

His mother almost died of a heart attack when he showed up back at the farm almost a year after they were told he was missing and presumed dead.

I am sure there are many stories like that.

My grandpa was stationed in Anchorage and never left the shore.

Posted by: Lily(Formerly of Hot Air) now of AoSHQ, Assassin in the Night at December 07, 2017 06:22 PM (vivhj)

84 We're just lucky that we figured out how to run those IKEA drills before the Germans did.

Posted by: garrett at December 07, 2017 06:22 PM (GQu4B)

85 Name a country a muslim can vote in a republic democracy:
Israel
United States

Posted by: rhennigantx at December 07, 2017 06:22 PM (BtQd4)

86 you felt like you were riding a 55 ton vibrator.
Posted by: jwb7605 at December 07, 2017 06:19 PM

Is this ship able to be rented by any chance? Just no sea men please. Asking for a friend.

Posted by: Rosie ODonnell at December 07, 2017 06:22 PM (VAlay)

87 Thank you Ace.

My dad was with MacArthur's Army at Leyte Gulf, landing as CO of a 40mm antiaircraft unit to provide protection above the beaches. His unit was responsible for downing over a dozen Japanese aircraft, and he was in the middle of an actual surprise Japanese airborne assault (they tried to capture an airfield where some of his AAA batteries were positioned).

The Naval Battle of Samar was epic. Heroes, all. Bless them.

Posted by: goatexchange at December 07, 2017 06:22 PM (YFnq5)

88 Germany was destroyed, lost vast amount of territory, fell into communism in half and only in last few years joined together
---
and is now headed back towards communism... or worse, islime.

Posted by: redc1c4 at December 07, 2017 06:22 PM (QcCSi)

89 9 The local radio news this morning referred to the attack as a "preemptive strike" rather than a sneak attack
Posted by: josephistan

Heh! Taking the Empire of Japan's viewpoint! How post modern of them.

Posted by: Puddleglum at December 07, 2017 06:22 PM (FbWU0)

90 Israel's parliament and the prime minister's office is in Jerusalem.

Sounds like a capital to me.

Like Trump said it's just recognizing reality.

Hopefully the casualties are kept to the bomb throwers.

Posted by: Dack Thrombosis at December 07, 2017 06:22 PM (4ErVI)

91 Although the overall film was disappointing, I thought the recreation of the Japanese air attack in the film 'Pearl Harbor' was very well done. It's the best cinematic example I know of that really captures the horror of that event.

Posted by: Anonymous 7 at December 07, 2017 06:23 PM (ZZdXT)

92 The Last Stand of the Tin Can Sailors: The Extraordinary World War II Story of the U.S. Navy's Finest Hour

Excellent book. All of Hornfischer's books on the pacific war are great.

Posted by: Keith at December 07, 2017 06:23 PM (USf3s)

93 Whatever happened to Dave in Texas? Is he still in Texas? Is he still Dave?

Posted by: JackStraw at December 07, 2017 06:24 PM (/tuJf)

94 77
This would be like the muslim salamis in Minnesota claiming Minneapolis as their holy capital.

And the rest of the World going along with their outrageous and baseless claim.

Posted by: Soothsayer SLX Pro Series II Platinum Turbo at December 07, 2017 06:20 PM (UVCy2)

It's only Thursday. Give them time.

Posted by: josephistan at December 07, 2017 06:24 PM (ANIFC)

95 That video was all kinds of awesome, Ace.

God Bless those warriors.

Posted by: BackwardsBoy at December 07, 2017 06:24 PM (tRaq7)

96 In San Diego there are two different monuments to this battle. One, the newer one, right next to the USS Midway museum (and jwb, I think Midway was the first angle-deck conversion carrier - ? - or maybe it was the first steel flight deck conversion?).

Up at Fort Rosecrans cemetery on Pt. Loma, overlooking the city, harbor, and the county on a day as clear as today, are a few monuments to the ships/crews of Taffy 3.

Posted by: rhomboid at December 07, 2017 06:24 PM (QDnY+)

97 91 Although the overall film was disappointing, I thought the recreation of the Japanese air attack in the film 'Pearl Harbor' was very well done. It's the best cinematic example I know of that really captures the horror of that event.

Posted by: Anonymous 7 at December 07, 2017 06:23 PM (ZZdXT)

Agree 1000%. The movie tanked but the attack is so harrowing that every time I've seen it I get angry. Fuckin' Japs.

Posted by: Dack Thrombosis at December 07, 2017 06:24 PM (4ErVI)

98
I heard this hilarious blurb on radio headline news this morning:

"In response to the controversial US embassy move to Jerusalem by President Trump, the UN calls an emergency meeting, possibly as early as tomorrow."

Emergency! ...maybe we'll meet tomorrow.

Posted by: Soothsayer SLX Pro Series II Platinum Turbo at December 07, 2017 06:25 PM (UVCy2)

99 91 Although the overall film was disappointing, I thought the recreation of the Japanese air attack in the film 'Pearl Harbor' was very well done. It's the best cinematic example I know of that really captures the horror of that event.
Posted by: Anonymous 7 at December 07, 2017 06:23 PM (ZZdXT)

"Tora, Tora, Tora" is my fave. Big part of it is Jerry Goldsmith's outstanding music score.

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at December 07, 2017 06:26 PM (mbhDw)

100 Emergency! ...maybe we'll meet tomorrow.
Posted by: Soothsayer SLX Pro Series II Platinum Turbo at December 07, 2017 06:25 PM (UVCy2)

Well they have to find all of ambassadors at the houses of ill repute.

Posted by: WOPR (now with chainsaw bayonets) at December 07, 2017 06:26 PM (56r43)

101 The Battle of Midway is another one that every American should know.

The American version of "Never was so much owed by so many to so few"

Posted by: Ignoramus at December 07, 2017 06:26 PM (cAXIk)

102 98
I heard this hilarious blurb on radio headline news this morning:

"In response to the controversial US embassy move to Jerusalem by President Trump, the UN calls an emergency meeting, possibly as early as tomorrow."

Emergency! ...maybe we'll meet tomorrow.
Posted by: Soothsayer SLX Pro Series II Platinum Turbo at December 07, 2017 06:25 PM (UVCy2)

They'll issue an angry letter to the Times, right? Fuck the U.N. to hell.

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at December 07, 2017 06:26 PM (mbhDw)

103 91 Although the overall film was disappointing, I thought the recreation of the Japanese air attack in the film 'Pearl Harbor' was very well done. It's the best cinematic example I know of that really captures the horror of that event.
Posted by: Anonymous 7 at December 07, 2017 06:23 PM (ZZdXT)

Ditto.

Posted by: josephistan at December 07, 2017 06:26 PM (ANIFC)

104 It was Kurita in command. And he had already had cold feet before. After Mitchner's fliers swarmed his force and sank Musashi he had turned around. This played into Halsey's decision to later go after Ozawa's sacrificial carriers. Then Kurita changed his mind and no one noticed until there were pagoda masts on the horizon.

Posted by: Anna Puma (HQCaR) at December 07, 2017 06:27 PM (mB06r)

105 The contrast between this post and the previous one is stunning.

"And yet... Sometimes audacity, aggression, guts, and couple of lucky breaks may actually back down a much bigger opponent."
We need to keep this constantly in mind as we struggle to get our country back from the deep state.

Posted by: sock_rat_eez at December 07, 2017 06:27 PM (HySvC)

106 "In response to the controversial US embassy move to Jerusalem by
President Trump, the UN calls an emergency meeting, possibly as early as
tomorrow."

There's gonna be a whole bunch of angry navel gazin' goin' on.

Posted by: Notorious BFD at December 07, 2017 06:28 PM (Tyii7)

107 Posted by: Patrick From Ohio at December 07, 2017 06:19 PM

My Grandfather God rest his soul was in that horrid war for 4 years. His brother died on the Bataan death march and he lost many others including his tail gunner. He always told me that he struggled with the fact that even 50 plus years later he couldn't forgive them and it bothered him. My Grandmother relayed a similar story. They went to the Pearl Harbor memorial and there were some Japanese tourists acting like they were at fucking Disneyworld. My Grandmother who was 90lbs. soaking wet. She said she had all she could do to talk my Grandfather into not walking over and kicking their asses.

Posted by: Minnfidel at December 07, 2017 06:28 PM (VAlay)

108 >>you felt like you were riding a 55 ton vibrator.

Posted by: jwb7605 at December 07, 2017 06:19 PM

Is this ship able to be rented by any chance? Just no sea men please. Asking for a friend.

Posted by: Rosie ODonnell

No rental for you. Can't take the chance on losing it.

Posted by: U-Rent-It at December 07, 2017 06:28 PM (2cuLk)

109 During WWII the Jap invaded and occupied Malaysia and basically went on a slaughtering spree. All young able men were send off to build the rail tracks and basically worked to death. My grandmother lost her youngest twin babies to malnutrition, her step brother to the rail road march and saw friends beheaded by the Japs. She hated them until the day she died in 2000. And she always told us grandkids, you can marry whom ever you like but not a Japanese (sounds bad I know but she just couldn't get over those events).

Posted by: IC at December 07, 2017 06:28 PM (a0IVu)

110 Ah, see someone beat me to it.

Ace, I highly recommend *two* books by Hornfischer, the one on Leyte Gulf noted above, and also "Neptune's Inferno" about the naval battles of Guadalcanal. Pretty stunning stuff - the ferocity and scale of those battles is hard to even comprehend. And, the US was losing most of the battles, Jap navy was in many ways superior at that point - it was "a close-run thing" in 1942.

A moron who commented both day-time and ONT, from TX - forget the nic - said he emailed Hornfischer once and I think had lunch with him, or something like that. Sounds like that author is accessible and friendly. His "Ghost Ship" about the USS Houston - which ends up being largely about the captivity of its survivors, some of whom worked on the Burma Railway - is also very good.

Posted by: rhomboid at December 07, 2017 06:28 PM (QDnY+)

111

Is Tora Tora Tora or similar on someplace tonight? I have access to a TV with cable but no knowledge of the channels in this strange and mysterious place...

Posted by: In Vino Veritits at December 07, 2017 06:28 PM (T/KY7)

112 Privileged white men saving the world.

Posted by: redenzo at December 07, 2017 06:28 PM (5wSNN)

113 104 Posted by: Anna Puma (HQCaR) at December 07, 2017 06:27 PM (mB06r)

IIRC many years later, Halsey said (paraphrasing) it's the side that makes the fewest blunders that comes out on top.

True that.

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at December 07, 2017 06:28 PM (mbhDw)

114 My grandfather was on the command ship USS Ancon. Basically a converted liner with a lot of communications gear and the operational commanders for major invasions. He was there from Torch to Sicily to Normandy to Okinawa. Worked in the laundry with battle stations on a 5" gun. U boats, glide bombs, regular bombers, Kamikazes.

Without the bomb he would have been off shore for the invasion of Japan and that could very well have been it. Because of the bob you can see his ship in the background on one of the shots as the surrender papers are signed on the Missouri.

Posted by: Keith at December 07, 2017 06:29 PM (USf3s)

115 As a guy who spent over a year of his life underwater, I get a tear (or two) in my eye every time I read about the brave men who fought those surface battles...... that had to be something. And by something, I mean exhilarating and terrifying in equal measure......

Posted by: SSBN 656 (G) at December 07, 2017 06:29 PM (br2jI)

116 111 Is Tora Tora Tora or similar on someplace tonight? I have access to a TV with cable but no knowledge of the channels in this strange and mysterious place...
Posted by: In Vino Veritits at December 07, 2017 06:28 PM (T/KY7)

Might be on Netflix instant watch.

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at December 07, 2017 06:29 PM (mbhDw)

117 93 Whatever happened to Dave in Texas? Is he still in Texas? Is he still Dave?

Posted by: JackStraw at December 07, 2017 06:24 PM (/tuJf)

With the transgenderism sweeping the nation, this is a valid question.

Posted by: Dack Thrombosis at December 07, 2017 06:29 PM (4ErVI)

118 @31 A Bridge Too Far

One of my favorite war films. When Hopkins tells the German officer he cannot accept their surrender . . . beautiful.

Of course, I can only say that because of my vantage point.

Posted by: 15-Minute Hitler at December 07, 2017 06:29 PM (Bq6b0)

119 @97 Dack Thrombosis

Yeah, if you can ignore the row of SpruCans that gets blowed up.

Posted by: Captain Ned at December 07, 2017 06:30 PM (N6KBW)

120 "Tora, Tora, Tora" is my fave. Big part of it is Jerry Goldsmith's outstanding music score.
Posted by: J.J. Sefton at December 07, 2017 06:26 PM (mbhDw)

There's nothing about that movie that isn't top-tier, to the point where Yamamoto's line has been assumed to be historical fact ever since. The fact that the US and Japanese stories are basically two independent movies spliced together is brilliant.

Posted by: hogmartin at December 07, 2017 06:30 PM (y87Qq)

121 Hitler sock begone!

Posted by: Bear with Assymetrical Balls at December 07, 2017 06:31 PM (Bq6b0)

122 I think the Japanese naval officers had a serious problem because they had to be very, very careful with their ships. They didn't have the capacity to just rip out new replacements like the USA basically did, so they had to be very cautious with resources. From what I've read it seems like that determined a lot of their strategy and response to battles.

Posted by: Christopher R Taylor at December 07, 2017 06:31 PM (39g3+)

123 109 Posted by: IC at December 07, 2017 06:28 PM (a0IVu)

Momma Sefton and her family all miraculously survived Mauthausen, Auschwitz, death marches and the labor brigades.

I understand completely.

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at December 07, 2017 06:31 PM (mbhDw)

124 Had a ride with a Filipino Uber driver the other day. When the word "Japan" somehow cropped up in the conversation for some random reason, he rolled down the window and spat outside, and said never to say that word again in his presence.

The hatred between the Philippines and Japan goes very very very deep, even to this day. The FIlipinos will NEVER forget.

Posted by: zombie at December 07, 2017 06:31 PM (42M22)

125 96 ... (and jwb, I think Midway was the first angle-deck conversion carrier - ? - or maybe it was the first steel flight deck conversion?).
...

Posted by: rhomboid at December 07, 2017 06:24 PM (QDnY+)

I've been on that Midway exhibit (the carrier). That wasn't an Essex class carrier -- the deck is concrete (over steel, I think). Hull design was from a Montana class battleship.

On Hancock, we had "wooden decks and iron men"

And YES. I have pictures to prove the 'wooden deck' part. We got a new surface of 16x16's covered with 3" of asphalt on an extended liberty once in Sasebo, Japan.
;-)

Posted by: jwb7605 at December 07, 2017 06:31 PM (DofIg)

126 One of my favorite war films. When Hopkins tells the German officer he cannot accept their surrender . . . beautiful.

Posted by: 15-Minute Hitler at December 07, 2017 06:29 PM

Best movie scene EVER!!!

Posted by: Minnfidel at December 07, 2017 06:32 PM (VAlay)

127 Remember it wasn't just Pearl Harbor that was attacked. The Japanese also attacked Wake, The Philippines, Guam, Thailand, and the British in Malaysia & Hong Kong

Posted by: josephistan at December 07, 2017 06:32 PM (ANIFC)

128 A memorial to Doris Miller (awarded the Navy Cross at Pearl Harbor) on the Brazos River was unveiled about an hour and a half ago in Waco, TX.

Posted by: Aviator at December 07, 2017 06:32 PM (2cuLk)

129 What happened to DiT anyway?

Thanks.

Posted by: Jarvis W. Deplorable at December 07, 2017 06:32 PM (RErNf)

130 120 Posted by: hogmartin at December 07, 2017 06:30 PM (y87Qq)

There is a lot of footage that was shot that never made it into the film, principally a number of scenes with the ubiquitous William Schallert playing Harry Hopkins.

I'd be curious to see those.

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at December 07, 2017 06:33 PM (mbhDw)

131 Part of what works with Tora, Tora, Tora for me is the way the Japanese are portrayed as capable, smart, and yet human and flawed. They make good and bad tactical decisions, they are uncertain this is the right move, but boldly take action. The American forces are portrayed in the same light: flawed people making decisions. Some of them quite bad.

Posted by: Christopher R Taylor at December 07, 2017 06:33 PM (39g3+)

132 In response to the controversial US embassy move to Jerusalem by President Trump, the UN calls an emergency meeting, possibly as early as tomorrow."

Emergency! ...maybe we'll meet tomorrow.
Posted by: Soothsayer SLX Pro Series II Platinum Turbo at December 07, 2017 06:25 PM (UVCy2)

Permanent veto, bitchez.

Posted by: USA, permanent Security Council member since 1945 at December 07, 2017 06:34 PM (EzdLW)

133 127 Remember it wasn't just Pearl Harbor that was attacked. The Japanese also attacked Wake, The Philippines, Guam, Thailand, and the British in Malaysia & Hong Kong
Posted by: josephistan

Exactly. I was just about to mention this myself. Dec. 7 was also the day of a huge surprise attack against Manila.

Posted by: zombie at December 07, 2017 06:34 PM (42M22)

134 10
Never met him but wifey's dad was on board the USS Nevada 76 years ago. We have cassette tapes of him telling his story.

Suggestion, get those converted to digital and store copies in multiple locations. Too important to risk.

Posted by: moon_over_vermont at December 07, 2017 06:34 PM (xh2c4)

135 81
72 Posted by: Patrick From Ohio at December 07, 2017 06:19 PM (dKiJG)

Just wow. My dad and mom had the same reaction when they saw Japanese tourists at the memorial.

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at December 07, 2017 06:21 PM (mbhDw)

My Dad really had to calm him down, even thou he was in his 70's he was ready to kick some ass, it was the posing with the peace sign that REALLY pissed him off especially in front of the wall with the names NO CLASS, He brought it home when he would point to the names on the wall and talk about them, it hit me then that these guys were his buddies he drank, ate with. He and my Grandma took in a Chinese refugee from the war and on day when my Grandma was doing laundry she started to iron clothes and according to my Dad he FREAKED out and ran from the house screaming, they later found out that the Japanese used an iron on his parents

Posted by: Patrick From Ohio at December 07, 2017 06:34 PM (dKiJG)

136 The Japanese atrocities committed in China and elsewhere really aren't talked about as much as they should be.

The Rape of Nanking was a real thing.

Unit 731 happened.

Posted by: Dack Thrombosis at December 07, 2017 06:34 PM (4ErVI)

137 A very common theme of historians about the Japanese Navy in WWII is they had very elaborate plans with faints, timetables to be kept and wishful thinking how their plans would come out.
Keep it simple wasn't their moto.

Posted by: Skip at December 07, 2017 06:34 PM (aC6Sd)

138 Sorry Last Stand will never get a recommendation from me because Hornfischer screws up his research. With just one sentence.

USS Gambier Bay was not the first carrier to sink by gunfire. That dubious distinction was already taken back in 1940 during the Norway campaign when Scharnhorst and Gneisenau came upon HMS Glorious who's deck was fouled by RAF fighters. The two pocket battleships proceeded to sink the carrier with 11-inch naval gunfire.

Posted by: Anna Puma (HQCaR) at December 07, 2017 06:34 PM (mB06r)

139 I've read this post. Your conclusions were all wrong Ace. Halsey acted shtupidly

Posted by: Admiral Ramius at December 07, 2017 06:34 PM (6HWvp)

140 I think the Japanese naval officers had a serious problem because they had to be very, very careful with their ships. They didn't have the capacity to just rip out new replacements like the USA basically did, so they had to be very cautious with resources. From what I've read it seems like that determined a lot of their strategy and response to battles.
Posted by: Christopher R Taylor at December 07, 2017 06:31 PM (39g3+)

Definitely, but when you're going 15 rounds and you know you can't go 15 rounds, you better go for the knockout. Instead they were bled to-death at Guadalcanal.

Posted by: WOPR (now with chainsaw bayonets) at December 07, 2017 06:35 PM (56r43)

141 In a move surprising exactly nobody, House Ethics Committee has cleared Devin Nunes of charges he mishandled evidence during the Russia probe.

Posted by: JackStraw at December 07, 2017 06:35 PM (/tuJf)

142 93 Whatever happened to Dave in Texas? Is he still in Texas? Is he still Dave?

Posted by: JackStraw at December 07, 2017 06:24 PM

At least I'm not the only one wondering!

Posted by: Jarvis W. Deplorable at December 07, 2017 06:35 PM (RErNf)

143 106 "In response to the controversial US embassy move to Jerusalem by
President Trump, the UN calls an emergency meeting, possibly as early as
tomorrow."

There's gonna be a whole bunch of angry navel gazin' goin' on.
Posted by: Notorious BFD at December 07, 2017 06:28 PM (Tyii7)

Gee I wonder where the UN is going to come down on this.

Posted by: buzzion at December 07, 2017 06:35 PM (lKs2v)

144 Big clanging brass ones on those seamen who took on that mission.
They knew going in what the outcome would be but were determined to extract maximum price for their lives.

God bless them all for their sacrifice.

Posted by: OneEyedJack at December 07, 2017 06:35 PM (z79tQ)

145 The Chinese aren't terribly fond of Japanese either. Or the Koreans. Some of the atrocities and horrors the Japanese committed eclipse the Germans, if you can believe it. Some of the tortures and experiments. They just didn't get nearly as much publicity or as many films about their deeds. Nobody knows the names of their monsters like they do Mengele and Himmler.

Posted by: Christopher R Taylor at December 07, 2017 06:35 PM (39g3+)

146 103 91 Although the overall film was disappointing, I thought the recreation of the Japanese air attack in the film 'Pearl Harbor' was very well done. It's the best cinematic example I know of that really captures the horror of that event.
Posted by: Anonymous 7 at December 07, 2017 06:23 PM (ZZdXT)

Ditto.
Posted by: josephistan at December 07, 2017 06:26 PM (ANIFC)

The part I liked best about "Pearl Harbor" is at the end when they're trying to rescue the men trapped in capsized battleships.

Posted by: rickl at December 07, 2017 06:35 PM (sdi6R)

147 131 Part of what works with Tora, Tora, Tora for me is the way the Japanese are portrayed as capable, smart, and yet human and flawed. They make good and bad tactical decisions, they are uncertain this is the right move, but boldly take action. The American forces are portrayed in the same light: flawed people making decisions. Some of them quite bad.
Posted by: Christopher R Taylor at December 07, 2017 06:33 PM (39g3+)

Agreed.

I'm reading Guadalcanal by Franks and it shows both sides fairly evenly. Showing the arrogance, the courage, and the faint-hearted and the mistaken on both sides.

Hope Dave in Texas is still in Texas and doing all right.

Posted by: Mark Andrew Edwards at December 07, 2017 06:36 PM (xJa6I)

148 Our church buried our last WWII vet last week. I knew that he had been a Navy gunner on Liberty ships doing convoy work. What I didn't know until the funeral was that the convoy work was the Murmansk Run.

Posted by: Grump928(C) at December 07, 2017 06:36 PM (WbIyz)

149 135 Posted by: Patrick From Ohio at December 07, 2017 06:34 PM (dKiJG)

My mother was very open about the things that happened to her except I know that there were some incidents that she refused to talk about and things that she could not stand. Stainless steel sinks for one. No idea.

And she would run from the room if the commercial for a Chia Pet came on. She said it reminded her of skeletons/remains that had grass growing from them.

Hell on earth.

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at December 07, 2017 06:37 PM (mbhDw)

150 Just flew back from San Antone. I am a pretty seasoned flyer, but learned 2 lessons from my flight today. When booking with Delta, never select the "basic economy" fare. I did by accident and it sucked.
Lesson 2 had nothing to do with flying. Before boarding an announcement was made to "Please only put your rolling bag in the overhead bin. Do not put your coat or personal bag in the overhead bin" "Don't put your coats or laptops in the overhead bins. It will cause us to have to check bags and delay takeoff" This was repeated several times, including at every zone call. It was repeated by the flight attendants as we boarded. As I walked back to my seat in steerage what do I see? Overhead bins stuffed with coats and laptop bags. FOllowed by the inevitable dance of the late boarders to find an overhead bin, then finally checking their bag. This is why socialism fails. It is not in human nature to do something good for the benefit of the collective, and everybody thinks they are the "special case" that is exempt from the rule. "I know they said not to put coats or laptops in the overhead bin, but I have to because...."

Posted by: Cat Ass Trophy at December 07, 2017 06:37 PM (BoMuO)

151 Gee I wonder where the UN is going to come down on this./i]

The only challenge is guessing out to what degree they hate Israel

Posted by: Christopher R Taylor at December 07, 2017 06:37 PM (39g3+)

152 Keep it simple wasn't their moto.
Posted by: Skip at December 07, 2017 06:34 PM (aC6Sd)

That was the thing at Guadalcanal. They would win a victory at sea but never follow up. They should have taken the main fleet right to the island, pounded the airfield and beaches, and landed a force right on top of the Marines. They would have taken losses but repelling the first counter-offensive would have helped them.

Posted by: WOPR (now with chainsaw bayonets) at December 07, 2017 06:38 PM (56r43)

153 The USS Ward story on December 7th is a very good one. Their peacetime gunnery was first rate, holing one of the incoming Japanese subs in the conning tower; sinking the sub in deep water. Only in the last 10 years has their accuracy been seen when the sub was rediscovered, now on the bottom.

They gave a timely warning to a headquarters that, if it had done the right (but peacetime unthinkable) action of alerting the fleet, the first wave of IJN planes would have faced a withering AA defense. As it was, the US forces reacted very fast, and the second wave of IJN aircraft took significant losses.

Why no third strike? The IJN aviators had already lost enough that an entire training year would be needed to make up the losses. A third strike, although it may have worked, would have been quite costly in almost irreplaceable aviators.

Posted by: NaCly Dog at December 07, 2017 06:39 PM (hyuyC)

154 Ya know Muldoon wrote a great WW2 novel

search amazon thru Ace's link for To Save Us All From Ruin by James Schroeder

Posted by: votermom pimping great books! at December 07, 2017 06:39 PM (hMwEB)

155 On this day in 1941, my Dad was 17. He graduated high school then enlisted in the Army Air Corps in July 1942. Since he was still 17, he had to forge my Grandfather's signature. I lost him about two and a half years ago. It still hurts.

Posted by: Bill R. at December 07, 2017 06:39 PM (IuYIh)

156 >> "103
91 Although the overall film was disappointing, I thought the recreation
of the Japanese air attack in the film 'Pearl Harbor' was very well
done. It's the best cinematic example I know of that really captures the
horror of that event."

Posted by: Anonymous 7 at December 07, 2017 06:23 PM (ZZdXT)

The other thing that really grabs the viewer of that film is that it wasn't only the poor sailors on board the ships who were killed, but hospital personnel were being strafed by low-flying Jap Zeroes in the streets too; while absolute chaos reigned in the makeshift emergency rooms.

Harrowing to watch.

Posted by: Anonymous 7 at December 07, 2017 06:39 PM (ZZdXT)

157 151 Gee I wonder where the UN is going to come down on this./i]

The only challenge is guessing out to what degree they hate Israel
Posted by: Christopher R Taylor at December 07, 2017 06:37 PM (39g3+)

I think my schaden-boner would achieve escape velocity if the UN does something to make PDT announce the US will pull out of the organization and they have 30 days to vacate Turtle Bay.

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at December 07, 2017 06:40 PM (mbhDw)

158 Best Pearl Harbor history I've read if Gordon Prang's "at dawn we Slept." Pretty much shows how our gross misunderstanding and stereotypes of the Japanese (we took them for granted and dismissed their threat) and theirs of us (we were weak and would be easily managed into a settled peace) led to both the attack and the fact we were not really prepared for it when we arrived.

Walter Lord's Day of Infamy has great personal tales of the battle as he did so well.

Posted by: Keith at December 07, 2017 06:40 PM (USf3s)

159 BY FAR the best and only morally coherent anti-war film is the great "Fires on the Plain" by the Japanese director Kon Ichikawa. Watch it if you can.

It takes places near the end of WWII when some Japanese soldiers are trapped behind enemy lines in the Philippines as American troops and Filipino partisans have driven out the main Japanese army. The trapped soldiers become more and more desperate and as a result more and more morally corrupted as the noose tightens around them. They start committed heinous atrocities until the end when basically the last survivor just walks willingly toward the Filipino resistance fighters, basically committing suicide rather than face reality the what his country has done.

Definitely in the 100 Must-See Movies Before You Die category.

Posted by: zombie at December 07, 2017 06:40 PM (42M22)

160 "The French built beautiful ships and could sail them well, but weren't as mean and tough as the British."

"French ships were like French women, beautiful, fast and undermanned." -- Churchill (?)

Posted by: Richard McEnroe at December 07, 2017 06:40 PM (+mfcd)

161 I wonder if CNN is regretting their "This is an apple" commercial.

MKH on treating Jerusalem as the capital on Tapper's show "I think there is merit in calling an apple an apple."

Posted by: buzzion at December 07, 2017 06:41 PM (lKs2v)

162 WWII produced thousands of heroes and heroic stories, most of which are, and will always be, unknown.

Posted by: Mike Hammer, etc., etc. at December 07, 2017 06:41 PM (5OO3x)

163 >>The hatred between the Philippines and Japan goes very very very deep, even to this day. The FIlipinos will NEVER forget.

Posted by: zombie

Chinese aren't too fond of the Japanese either.

Posted by: Aviator at December 07, 2017 06:41 PM (2cuLk)

164 Sort of on topic... I heartily recommend Victor Dais Hanson's book " The Second World Wars"... for any who might have an interest in the matter.
Hanson is a gifted historian... he treats the subject with readable insight...

Posted by: kraken at December 07, 2017 06:41 PM (zSVEm)

165 I have read 2 books on the Rape of Nanking, there is some sickening and very disturbing events not for the faint at heart.

Posted by: Skip at December 07, 2017 06:41 PM (aC6Sd)

166 Nagumo decided a third attack was not worth the risk since the tactical objective had been reached - immobilize the Pacific Fleet.

If the oil tanks had been hit, Pye and the Pacific Fleet would have been forced to retreat to California. And probably would have added a year to the war.

Posted by: Anna Puma (HQCaR) at December 07, 2017 06:42 PM (mB06r)

167 Some of the cool/interesting things about WW2 were things like how they broke the Jap code and tested it by sending a message about the water purification being out. Sure as shit, they sent a message ID'ing Midway as their target. At that point in the war it was thread bare and the outcome not guaranteed. Their (the Japs) problem was that they didn't have a ton of resources and big industry to replace shit. We had all that and an extremely pissed off populace.

Posted by: Minnfidel at December 07, 2017 06:42 PM (VAlay)

168 OT - I was briefed on something at work today. I can't say anything more, but Trump is a brilliant president. Better than any of us here think, and we are all generally fans to start with.

Posted by: Dave in Fla at December 07, 2017 06:42 PM (wfDW1)

169 Something Hanson said, vis a vis Japan, and Germany... " it is easy to start a war, but very hard to finish one"...

Posted by: kraken at December 07, 2017 06:43 PM (zSVEm)

170 I think my schaden-boner would achieve escape velocity if the UN does something to make PDT announce the US will pull out of the organization and they have 30 days to vacate Turtle Bay.

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at December 07, 2017 06:40 PM (mbhDw)

The future location of the Donald Trump Presidential Library!

Posted by: Dack Thrombosis at December 07, 2017 06:43 PM (4ErVI)

171 A sweet old fellow who lived in my late mother's retirement community was a Pearl Harbor survivor.

When I would have lunch there with Mother, he'd hobble into the dining room, and when asked how he was doing he'd always reply:

"I'm walkin' and talkin'!" with a big grin.

He died a couple of years before Mother. Such a sweet, kind man.

Posted by: Jane D'oh at December 07, 2017 06:43 PM (ptqGC)

172 152 Keep it simple wasn't their moto.
Posted by: Skip at December 07, 2017 06:34 PM (aC6Sd)

That was the thing at Guadalcanal. They would win a victory at sea but never follow up. They should have taken the main fleet right to the island, pounded the airfield and beaches, and landed a force right on top of the Marines. They would have taken losses but repelling the first counter-offensive would have helped them.
Posted by: WOPR (now with chainsaw bayonets) at December 07, 2017 06:38 PM (56r43)

Lots of reasons why they couldn't do that. A lot of them having to do with the IJA and IJN being nearly at swords-point, sometimes literally.

After Midway, the IJN admirals were very nervous about US Carriers too. Sadly, Admiral Fletcher was even more nervous about Japanese carriers but so it goes.

Posted by: Mark Andrew Edwards at December 07, 2017 06:43 PM (xJa6I)

173 164 Sort of on topic... I heartily recommend Victor Dais Hanson's book " The Second World Wars"... for any who might have an interest in the matter.
Hanson is a gifted historian... he treats the subject with readable insight...
Posted by: kraken at December 07, 2017 06:41 PM (zSVEm)

I understand Obama's favorite author, Winston Churchill, has a multi-volume history of that little spat.

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at December 07, 2017 06:43 PM (mbhDw)

174 168 OT - I was briefed on something at work today. I can't say anything more, but Trump is a brilliant president. Better than any of us here think, and we are all generally fans to start with.
Posted by: Dave in Fla at December 07, 2017 06:42 PM (wfDW1)

tease

Posted by: Mark Andrew Edwards at December 07, 2017 06:43 PM (xJa6I)

175 Best Pearl Harbor history I've read if Gordon Prang's "at dawn we Slept." Pretty much shows how our gross misunderstanding and stereotypes of the Japanese (we took them for granted and dismissed their threat) and theirs of us (we were weak and would be easily managed into a settled peace) led to both the attack and the fact we were not really prepared for it when we arrived.
--------------

Also, miscommunication within the sundry command structures.

Posted by: Mike Hammer, etc., etc. at December 07, 2017 06:43 PM (5OO3x)

176 One of the things that really sunk (pardon the play on words) the Japanese was the absolute rigidity of their command structure. Orders were orders, and any deviation or improvisation was considered dishonorable and often dealt with severely.

Posted by: Notorious BFD at December 07, 2017 06:43 PM (Tyii7)

177 At Leyte, when the Japs turned away, an American sailor shouted, "g*ddamnit, they're getting away".

Posted by: Phildirt at December 07, 2017 06:44 PM (Dxj7R)

178 You may have won battle! You no win war!

Posted by: Japanese guy in the jungle at December 07, 2017 06:44 PM (/qEW2)

179 ABC news still pushjng thd Russian collusion scam reporting DTjr will be questioned on Russian involvement and meetings.
Put it on to see the wildfires

Posted by: Skip at December 07, 2017 06:44 PM (aC6Sd)

180 I have read 2 books on the Rape of Nanking, there is some sickening and very disturbing events not for the faint at heart.

Posted by: Skip at December 07, 2017 06:41 PM (aC6Sd)

I've never read books on that topic. I don't think I could.

Read "Unbroken" and it make me sick and filled with rage.

Posted by: Jane D'oh at December 07, 2017 06:44 PM (ptqGC)

181 173 164 Sort of on topic... I heartily recommend Victor Dais Hanson's book " The Second World Wars"... for any who might have an interest in the matter.
Hanson is a gifted historian... he treats the subject with readable insight...
Posted by: kraken at December 07, 2017 06:41 PM (zSVEm)

I understand Obama's favorite author, Winston Churchill, has a multi-volume history of that little spat.
Posted by: J.J. Sefton at December 07, 2017 06:43 PM (mbhDw)

And a much harder to find multi volume history of WWI as well. Though it has finally been reprinted with the 100th anniversary of WWI

Posted by: josephistan at December 07, 2017 06:44 PM (ANIFC)

182 165 I have read 2 books on the Rape of Nanking, there is some sickening and very disturbing events not for the faint at heart.
Posted by: Skip at December 07, 2017 06:41 PM (aC6Sd)

"Meh. Nice light read."

- - ISIS Beheading Guy

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at December 07, 2017 06:45 PM (mbhDw)

183 168 OT - I was briefed on something at work today. I can't say anything more, but Trump is a brilliant president. Better than any of us here think, and we are all generally fans to start with.
Posted by: Dave in Fla at December 07, 2017 06:42 PM (wfDW1)

I hope we get to hear about it someday!

Posted by: rickl at December 07, 2017 06:45 PM (sdi6R)

184 I understand Obama's favorite author, Winston Churchill, has a multi-volume history of that little spat.
Posted by: J.J. Sefton at December 07, 2017 06:43 PM (mbhDw)

Amazon had every volume for free a couple years ago.

Posted by: Bill R. at December 07, 2017 06:45 PM (IuYIh)

185 God Bless all our surviving WWII veterans. I am in awe.

Posted by: Muldoon at December 07, 2017 06:46 PM (Dy5Cx)

186 168 OT - I was briefed on something at work today. I can't say anything more, but Trump is a brilliant president. Better than any of us here think, and we are all generally fans to start with.
Posted by: Dave in Fla at December 07, 2017 06:42 PM (wfDW1)

Where do you work, or is that hush-hush?

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at December 07, 2017 06:46 PM (mbhDw)

187 I understand Obama's favorite author, Winston Churchill, has a multi-volume history of that little spat.
Posted by: J.J. Sefton
----------

On the third volume now, 'The Grand Alliance".

I've been wondering if the entire history is required reading at the Academies. If it isn't, it sure as hell ought to be.

Posted by: Mike Hammer, etc., etc. at December 07, 2017 06:46 PM (5OO3x)

188 NaCly Dog, correct, the 2nd wave at Pearl was savaged (the slow torpedo bombers, especially) by the then-woken US sailors. Of course once you've aroused the fleet's air defenses, you've got literally hundreds of guns, if not thousands, ready to shoot at anything near the harbor, so it was no surprise that this was the case - and the Japanese planners were well aware of it.

For those with a serious, geeky interest in an operations research look at the Pearl Harbor attack, Alan Zimm's book is very interesting. He looks in great detail at the issues such as those raised by NaCly Dog. Book is built around examining the major "myths" about the attack. Very interesting.

Posted by: rhomboid at December 07, 2017 06:46 PM (QDnY+)

189 Why no third strike? The IJN aviators had already lost enough that an entire training year would be needed to make up the losses.
Posted by: NaCly Dog at December 07, 2017 06:39 PM (hyuyC)

Also, the first two had already reported the carriers were out to sea anyway. It would have been to their benefit to hit the fuel dumps and submarine piers, but only in the long run, and the whole point of the plan was that there wasn't supposed to be a long run.

The unmitigated shitshow of IJN aviation manning was mentioned in... Shattered Sword, I think? Anna will know for sure. Replacing aviators would have taken forever because they were only taking the absolute best, and never rotating them back as instructors. The academy was graduating maybe 3 aviators from classes of 25, and the rest ended up chipping paint.

Posted by: hogmartin at December 07, 2017 06:46 PM (y87Qq)

190 Posted by: Anna Puma (HQCaR) at December 07, 2017 06:34 PM (mB06r)

Isn't Hornfischer implying that it was the first American carrier to be sunk by naval gunfire?

Posted by: CrotchetyOldJarhead at December 07, 2017 06:47 PM (XGGts)

191 USS Midway as commissioned was designated CVB. She was to be a battle carrier that embodied the British ideas of armored flight deck with an air arm of 133 planes and the speed of an Essex carrier.

Posted by: Anna Puma (HQCaR) at December 07, 2017 06:47 PM (mB06r)

192 OT - I was briefed on something at work today. I can't say anything more, but Trump is a brilliant president.

He has Barry's college transcripts, a copy of his real birth certificate, a copy of the passport he traveled to Pokeeston on?

Posted by: Jane D'oh at December 07, 2017 06:47 PM (ptqGC)

193 Amazon had every volume for free a couple years ago.
Posted by: Bill R. at December 07, 2017 06:45 PM (IuYIh)
-------
Amazon has something else right now.

Posted by: Weasel at December 07, 2017 06:47 PM (Sfs6o)

194 184 I understand Obama's favorite author, Winston Churchill, has a multi-volume history of that little spat.
Posted by: J.J. Sefton at December 07, 2017 06:43 PM (mbhDw)

Amazon had every volume for free a couple years ago.
Posted by: Bill R. at December 07, 2017 06:45 PM (IuYIh)

Churchill, harumph... he's certainly no Ken Burns....

Posted by: kraken at December 07, 2017 06:47 PM (zSVEm)

195 168 OT - I was briefed on something at work today. I can't say anything more, but Trump is a brilliant president. Better than any of us here think, and we are all generally fans to start with.

Posted by: Dave in Fla at December 07, 2017 06:42 PM (wfDW1)

You're a cruel, cruel man Dave in Fla! Cruel.

Posted by: Tami at December 07, 2017 06:47 PM (Enq6K)

196 "Where do you work, or is that hush-hush?"

No, that isn't hush hush at all. I work for Harris Corporation.

Posted by: Dave in Fla at December 07, 2017 06:48 PM (wfDW1)

197 165 I have read 2 books on the Rape of Nanking, there is some sickening and very disturbing events not for the faint at heart.
Posted by: Skip at December 07, 2017 06:41 PM (aC6Sd)

Most haunting picture I've seen from the war is of a you Chinese woman, kneeling naked (raped, no doubt) with an infant, dead I believe, clutched to her chest. Absolutely beautiful young woman. There is total grief on her face. Her head is about 3" above her body as it has just, at that very second, severed by a Japanese sword.

Posted by: Keith at December 07, 2017 06:48 PM (USf3s)

198 Hornfischer called her the first carrier sunk by gunfire.

First American carrier sunk by such he would have been safe even though the last hours of USS Hornet CV-8's life was spent under Japanese guns as Long Lance torpedoes sank her.

Posted by: Anna Puma (HQCaR) at December 07, 2017 06:48 PM (mB06r)

199 When the movie "Tora Tora Tora" came out, my best buddy and I went and saw it on a Fri. Of course we both liked it, and the next morning we were telling his dad about the film.

That was when we found out his dad was at Pearl when the attack happened. Said he was a construction worker (CCC?). Anyhow, he told us he and the guys he was working with saw the attack, realizing there was nothing they could do, and just went up on the side of a hill and watched.

Of course, afterwards they went down to help with the horrible clean up of bodies and general carnage of the ships. One funny thing he talked about is you sure as hell didn't want to be outside after dark following the attack. You were much more likely to be shot by an American than any invading Japanese.

Posted by: HH at December 07, 2017 06:49 PM (mIJBI)

200 OT - I was briefed on something at work today. I can't say anything more, but Trump is a brilliant president. Better than any of us here think, and we are all generally fans to start with.

If it's something big, I can't wait to find out what it is.

One thing's for sure: whatever it is, it will be of benefit to us.

Posted by: BackwardsBoy at December 07, 2017 06:49 PM (tRaq7)

201 Aren't those vets aware that Trump would have sided with the Japanese, what with his being Hitler? Apparently, they didn't teach history very well back then.

Posted by: Barack H Obama at December 07, 2017 06:49 PM (/qEW2)

202 could have proofed that better...

Posted by: Keith at December 07, 2017 06:50 PM (USf3s)

203 The USS Ward story on December 7th is a very good one. Their peacetime gunnery was first rate, holing one of the incoming Japanese subs in the conning tower; sinking the sub in deep water. Only in the last 10 years has their accuracy been seen when the sub was rediscovered, now on the bottom.

They gave a timely warning to a headquarters that, if it had done the right (but peacetime unthinkable) action of alerting the fleet, the first wave of IJN planes would have faced a withering AA defense. As it was, the US forces reacted very fast, and the second wave of IJN aircraft took significant losses.

Why no third strike? The IJN aviators had already lost enough that an entire training year would be needed to make up the losses. A third strike, although it may have worked, would have been quite costly in almost irreplaceable aviators.
Posted by: NaCly Dog at December 07, 2017 06:39 PM

Yep, the communication and command up above were asleep, figuratively and literally. The gun that hit that sub was taken off as the Ward was turned into a supply ship, (eerily she was sunk 3 years later to the date on 12.7.44) it's at the capitol in Minn as most of the crew was from here. Some doubted their story until they found the sub a few years back. As others have said, fortunately for us, Japan was leery about loosing too much equipment. They didn't have the capacity to replace shit like we did. One of the coolest stories is how ships that were sunk were literally numbered and pieced back together. The Japanese thought they were seeing ghost ships a year later.

Posted by: Minnfidel at December 07, 2017 06:50 PM (VAlay)

204 168 OT - I was briefed on something at work today. I can't say anything more, but Trump is a brilliant president. Better than any of us here think, and we are all generally fans to start with.

Posted by: Dave in Fla at December 07, 2017 06:42 PM (wfDW1)

Never been prouder of a vote in my life. I floated out of the polling station.

I believe it whatever it is. The guy is a forward thinker and it seems no one knows how to deal with him.

Can't remember where I saw it, but someone was talking about the Palis doing their usual thing after the Jerusalem thing. Not a single one of them took the time to think about what might be going on. Just right to turning up the rage to 11. Same thing here with the Left. Everything gets dialed up to 11 without any thought whatsoever to why Trump is doing what he's doing.

And maybe a lot of it is to make these people look ridiculous. Or really to help them make themselves look more ridiculous than they already are.

Posted by: Dack Thrombosis at December 07, 2017 06:51 PM (4ErVI)

205 No, that isn't hush hush at all. I work for Harris Corporation.

I'll be sheep-dipped. I used to do contract work for you guys about 20 years ago and my contact was named Dave, too.

NGC.

Posted by: BackwardsBoy at December 07, 2017 06:52 PM (tRaq7)

206 No, that isn't hush hush at all. I work for Harris Corporation.

Posted by: Dave in Fla at December 07, 2017 06:48 PM (wfDW1)

Ok, a search tells me that's a technology defense contractor....hmmmm.

Posted by: Tami at December 07, 2017 06:52 PM (Enq6K)

207 If not mentioned above, highly recommend Last Of The Tin Can Sailors.

Posted by: Eromero at December 07, 2017 06:52 PM (zLDYs)

208 The horror of WWII was civilians becoming legitimate targets.

I had an Irish uncle who served in the British Navy. He got a bad case of malaria. Another served in the British Army in Burma, which was a tough campaign. Both survived. But their younger sister died in the London Blitz.

Many families have similar stories.

Posted by: Ignoramus at December 07, 2017 06:52 PM (cAXIk)

209 Just wait until my multi-volume Revisionist History of the World comes out. Slow Uncle Joe's crayon illustrations promise to be breathtaking.

Posted by: Disgraced Ex-Prez'nit Toonces at December 07, 2017 06:52 PM (Tyii7)

210 Patrick From Ohio at December 07, 2017 06:34 PM (dKiJG)

My mother was very open about the things that happened to her except I know that there were some incidents that she refused to talk about and things that she could not stand. Stainless steel sinks for one. No idea.

And she would run from the room if the commercial for a Chia Pet came on. She said it reminded her of skeletons/remains that had grass growing from them.

Hell on earth.
Posted by: J.J. Sefton at December 07, 2017 06:37 PM (mbhDw)

Sometimes I don't know how people coped with the horrors of War, Kids in the US today have really no worries. When I grew up in the late 70's we had the USSR. These kids don't even remember 9/11.

Posted by: Patrick From Ohio at December 07, 2017 06:52 PM (dKiJG)

211 Sorry to be a tease. But I had two political takeaways today.

1) Trump is brilliant. Not lucky, not tenacious, not any of the positive traits we normally attribute to him. No, he is a fricking genius.

2) Not all of the deep state is working against him. There are significant large pockets of long time federal employees that are working hard to support what he is doing.

I just thought you would all appreciate some "on the ground" opinion based on stuff that is real, not from the media.

Posted by: Dave in Fla at December 07, 2017 06:52 PM (wfDW1)

212 Cookbook is close to breaking top 500 in Amazon best sellers and Top 50 in cookbooks.

Posted by: buzzion at December 07, 2017 06:53 PM (lKs2v)

213 Minnfield, go look at my post on last thread about USS Ward. She was converted into a fast transport, APD-16. She was carrying soldiers of the 77th Division when the kamikaze struck her.

Posted by: Anna Puma (HQCaR) at December 07, 2017 06:53 PM (mB06r)

214 I watched PDT with the Pearl Harbor vets at the WH today, and had tears in my eyes.

When one of the old fellows told him he had a hat that Trump hadn't signed, Trump led them all into the Oval Office to spend more time with them. You could tell he really was moved by the old boys.

Posted by: Jane D'oh at December 07, 2017 06:53 PM (ptqGC)

215 g'early evenin', 'rons

Posted by: AltonJackson at December 07, 2017 06:53 PM (KCxzN)

216 As I said, thousands of heroes. Anyone here know the story of the Polish sub Orzel?

https://preview.tinyurl.com/y7gtovfd

Posted by: Mike Hammer, etc., etc. at December 07, 2017 06:54 PM (5OO3x)

217
Hahahaha: Mahk Tank

Mark (Chevy commercial spoofer) spoofs Shark Tank

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mMiBDW-6WK0

Posted by: Soothsayer SLX Pro Series II Platinum Turbo at December 07, 2017 06:54 PM (UVCy2)

218 212 Cookbook is close to breaking top 500 in Amazon best sellers and Top 50 in cookbooks.
Posted by: buzzion

Woo-hoo!

Posted by: zombie at December 07, 2017 06:54 PM (42M22)

219
Cookbook is close to breaking top 500 in Amazon best sellers and Top 50 in cookbooks.

Posted by: buzzion at December 07, 2017 06:53 PM (lKs2v)

I need to check and see if they've changed my four stars to five. They said they needed to "review" my review.

Posted by: Jane D'oh at December 07, 2017 06:55 PM (ptqGC)

220 Those of you with WWII vets in the family, or know any, please please consider interviewing them, or see if they've written down their stories, and if they have original documents - and check out the Library of Congress' Veterans' History project (on their website). A file is created for each vet. The website explains what is accepted.

Civilians involved in war work are included.

I have done about 6 of these interviews, and helped organize their documents for eventual donation. Time is obviously of the essence.

Posted by: rhomboid at December 07, 2017 06:55 PM (QDnY+)

221 174
168 OT - I was briefed on something at work today. I can't say anything more, but Trump is a brilliant president. Better than any of us here think, and we are all generally fans to start with.

Posted by: Dave in Fla at December 07, 2017 06:42 PM (wfDW1)

tease

Posted by: Mark Andrew Edwards at December 07, 2017 06:43 PM (xJa6I)

My thoughts exactly.

If I had to guess, Congress passes a resolution ending the Mueller charade. There has been a lot of chatter, and lately all the GOP types have been coming out swinging bigly, and it seems coordinated. GOPers don't take a dump without a plan, fail though it might.

Posted by: flounder, rebel, vulgarian, deplorable, winner at December 07, 2017 06:55 PM (tbOMB)

222 Halsey acted stupidly.

Posted by: Captain Marko Ramius at December 07, 2017 06:55 PM (jn7FC)

223 Fox showing the Pearl Harbor guys, and the guy singing.

Posted by: Jane D'oh at December 07, 2017 06:56 PM (ptqGC)

224 I wonder if CNN is regretting their "This is an apple" commercial.

CNN keeps making own goals. Fake News was a big choice of theirs too, now they wish the term never had existed. Just a batch of idiots.

Posted by: Christopher R Taylor at December 07, 2017 06:56 PM (39g3+)

225 "The Last of the Tin Can Sailors" has been mentioned many times on the Sunday book thread but I'll plug it again. It's a great book on the Battle of Samar.

Posted by: Tuna at December 07, 2017 06:56 PM (jm1YL)

226 My dad used to sing that all the time. He enlisted Dec 8, 1941 while in college.

I loved that guy singing it. Made me cry.

Posted by: dagny at December 07, 2017 06:56 PM (eO5CB)

227 I remember reading somewhere that after Pearl harbor, Churchill looked at a map and saw there is nothing really to stop Imperial Japan from here to there (from US to China)..and lost the rest of his hair...(or something like that )

Posted by: runner at December 07, 2017 06:56 PM (QC/4S)

228 218 212 Cookbook is close to breaking top 500 in Amazon best sellers and Top 50 in cookbooks.
Posted by: buzzion

Woo-hoo!
Posted by: zombie

Just in case not everyone knows what you're talking about:

A new cookbook comprised entirely of recipes submitted by Ace of Spades commenters has just been published under the title

The Deplorable Gourmet

Here is the link to buy it:

https://www.amazon.com/Deplorable-Gourmet-Horde/dp/0692991123/?tag=aoshq-20

Email it, Tweet it, Facebook it! Let's see how high we can make it go!

Posted by: zombie at December 07, 2017 06:56 PM (42M22)

229 Posted by: Anna Puma (HQCaR) at December 07, 2017 06:53 PM

Thanks Anna! Amazingly they only had one wounded in that attack on Dec. 7th 1944. She was scuttled by another American ship after all were off.

Posted by: Minnfidel at December 07, 2017 06:57 PM (VAlay)

230 The vet breaking into song made me tear up.

Posted by: nerdygirl at December 07, 2017 06:57 PM (+lVUW)

231 My dad used to sing that all the time. He enlisted Dec 8, 1941 while in college.

I loved that guy singing it. Made me cry.

Posted by: dagny at December 07, 2017 06:56 PM (eO5CB)

My dad did the same. He was a junior engineering major at Clemson Military College. Could have stayed in (as some did) and had a lucrative life as an engineer, as my late FiL did.

Posted by: Jane D'oh at December 07, 2017 06:58 PM (ptqGC)

232 12 Some of the soy latte drinkers over on CNN twitter are gettin' their Wormtongue on. So condescending to the veterans he is using as a prop, they say.
Posted by: boulder terlit hobo at December 07, 2017 06:05 PM (6FqZa)

So not feelin' bad about hoping they die in a fire.

Posted by: dagny at December 07, 2017 06:58 PM (eO5CB)

233 Cool BB

We are always on the lookout for talent. The difference between my company and the Lockheeds and Boeings of the word is that we are at our core an engineering firm. We turn ideas into reality. Sometimes we are kind of bad at the business side of things as a result, and get smoked competing for contracts. Generally because we bid what it will really take to do the job, rather than the price needed to win.

Posted by: Dave in Fla at December 07, 2017 06:58 PM (wfDW1)

234 211
Sorry to be a tease. But I had two political takeaways today.

1) Trump is brilliant. Not lucky, not tenacious, not any of the positive traits we normally attribute to him. No, he is a fricking genius.

2) Not all of the deep state is working against him. There are significant large pockets of long time federal employees that are working hard to support what he is doing.

I just thought you would all appreciate some "on the ground" opinion based on stuff that is real, not from the media.

Posted by: Dave in Fla at December 07, 2017 06:52 PM (wfDW1)

I take back my tease comment, and I await news patiently.

Is it a Comey, et al., indictment? It is, isn't it? Tell me, tell me, tell me.

Posted by: flounder, rebel, vulgarian, deplorable, winner at December 07, 2017 06:58 PM (tbOMB)

235 Check quick is one of the horde missing?

http://katu.com/news/local/suspect-arrested-for-november-assault-with-a-crossbow

Posted by: Christopher R Taylor at December 07, 2017 06:58 PM (39g3+)

236 Actually saw on last thread someone looking for it, its at Fox news

foxnews USS Ward ship that fired first American shots world war ii found-in-philippines

Posted by: Skip at December 07, 2017 06:05 PM (aC6Sd)

Was Amelia Earhart and Fred Noonan and her plane on board too?

Posted by: Count de Monet at December 07, 2017 06:58 PM (QLvwG)

237 Unfortunately it wasnt over til Hirohito was brought down and humiliated by having to force-sign surrender papers in front of MacArthur in Tokyo Bay.

Posted by: Former Preezy Barack at December 07, 2017 06:58 PM (9XhZq)

238 227 I remember reading somewhere that after Pearl harbor, Churchill looked at a map and saw there is nothing really to stop Imperial Japan from here to there (from US to China)..and lost the rest of his hair...(or something like that )
Posted by: runner at December 07, 2017 06:56 PM (QC/4S)

He saw it as the salvation of Britain and victory in the West. Even though war had not been declared with Germany he knew that would happen.

Posted by: Keith at December 07, 2017 06:58 PM (USf3s)

239 "228 218 212 Cookbook is close to breaking top 500 in Amazon best sellers and Top 50 in cookbooks.
Posted by: buzzion "

And the reviews are extraordinary!

Posted by: Tuna at December 07, 2017 06:59 PM (jm1YL)

240 C'mon guys it's an engineering firm doing defense related work.

Something to do with North Korea I'd say.

Posted by: Dack Thrombosis at December 07, 2017 06:59 PM (4ErVI)

241 Did read the first book about Unit 731, have Rape of Nanking though haven't read it yet. But I did have the chance to visit Ping-Fan, the site outside Harbin where Unit 731 operated. Back in the late 80s. Set up as a museum now - very spare. But that might be to the best, as the history is so gruesome. Not sure what they've done with it since. At the time there were not regular visitors, I was part of a govt. delegation and asked the provincial officials about the place - they were very surprised but pleased to grant that request.

Posted by: rhomboid at December 07, 2017 07:00 PM (QDnY+)

242 Some of the soy latte drinkers over on CNN twitter are gettin' their
Wormtongue on. So condescending to the veterans he is using as a prop,
they say.

The enemy domestic. Can't be emphasized enough.

Posted by: Notorious BFD at December 07, 2017 07:00 PM (Tyii7)

243 Trump's good at war gaming. Plotting out how a plan will play out over months and even years, anticipating potential opposition and having contingency plans.

Who knew that real estate development would be good training for Presidential politics.

Then add Mad Media Skillz.

Posted by: Ignoramus at December 07, 2017 07:00 PM (cAXIk)

244
From last thread, the last I saw, the cause of death for August Ames hadn't been made public. But it has now: She hanged herself.

Damn, this is making me angry. Michael Corleone angry.

Posted by: publius, the Persistent Poperin Pear at December 07, 2017 07:00 PM (8O3HH)

245 Was Amelia Earhart and Fred Noonan and her plane on board too?

Posted by: Count de Monet at December 07, 2017 06:58 PM (QLvwG)

No but they were on a Star Trek Voyager rerun today.

Posted by: Tami at December 07, 2017 07:00 PM (Enq6K)

246 If Trump were Presdent back then, We wood have lost all the ships !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Posted by: Mary Clogginstien from Brattleboro at December 07, 2017 07:00 PM (u54O2)

247 220 Those of you with WWII vets in the family, or know any, please please consider interviewing them, or see if they've written down their stories, and if they have original documents - and check out the Library of Congress' Veterans' History project (on their website). A file is created for each vet. The website explains what is accepted.

Civilians involved in war work are included.

I have done about 6 of these interviews, and helped organize their documents for eventual donation. Time is obviously of the essence.

Posted by: rhomboid

Problem is, my [elderly male relative] keep changing his stories, to cover up the insane misbehavior he used to brag about. I've tried "interviewing" him, but get different stories each time, contradicting each other.

Not all soldiers were heroes, or heroic. Some were bastards. My relative is in that category.

For example, at one point, he actually ran a whorehouse in Italy, not long after he fought at Anzio. The dude was totally out of control.

Posted by: zombie at December 07, 2017 07:00 PM (42M22)

248 My .02?
Thrilled we have a President who is truly proud of America.
May we all continue to share in the blessings afforded by those men...

Posted by: Anon a mouse at December 07, 2017 07:01 PM (MINbv)

249 Hornfischer in Last Stand uses a fictional Herman Wouk character to criticize Halsey's decisions. Guess he thought it sounded better than Hornfischer himself criticizing Halsey.

He also opines that this cock-up of going after Ozawa is why Halsey only had one ship named after him while Spruance got a whole class of destroyers. How is this germane to telling the story of the Battle of Leyte Gulf or more specifically of the men on those Small Boys who went into harm's way to save others?

Another bit of proof-reading could have saved him from another embarrassment when he makes the statement that the Battle of Leyte Gulf covered the most surface area of any battle. And then he mentions the Battle of Midway that historically we know stretched from Attu and Kiska all the way south to a diversionary attack in Australia.

Posted by: Anna Puma (HQCaR) at December 07, 2017 07:01 PM (mB06r)

250 The Axis made the same fatal calculation that the American South made... picking a fight with a materially vastly superior adversary... in the wishful thinking that the fight would end quickly...

Posted by: kraken at December 07, 2017 07:01 PM (zSVEm)

251 238 227 I remember reading somewhere that after Pearl harbor, Churchill looked at a map and saw there is nothing really to stop Imperial Japan from here to there (from US to China)..and lost the rest of his hair...(or something like that )
Posted by: runner at December 07, 2017 06:56 PM (QC/4S)

He saw it as the salvation of Britain and victory in the West. Even though war had not been declared with Germany he knew that would happen.

Posted by: Keith at December 07, 2017 06:58 PM (USf3s)

Saw an ad today for a new Churchill movie coming out....Darkest Hour.

Posted by: Tami at December 07, 2017 07:02 PM (Enq6K)

252 rhomboid

I'ce writrten about Alan Zimm's book Attack on Pearl Harbor: Strategy, Combat, Myths, Deceptions before.

Good analysis except for one major issue. He misses or dismisses the implications of the stuffing tubes (sealing for watertight bulkheads cable penetrations) status found in zone inspections on BBs. He says the BBs would have survived IJN aircraft attack if they were sortied early to attack the IJN fleet.

Not so. The BBs would have been sunk unrecoverable in deep water, with massive loss of life in well-trained crewmen. The lack of stuffing tube maintenance would have led to progressive flooding and loss of the ship.

In addition, I've gamed it out many many times. The attack in harbor was an absolute blessing. We had excellent salvage crews and recovered all by two of the attacked active BBs.

Posted by: NaCly Dog at December 07, 2017 07:02 PM (hyuyC)

253 I remember reading somewhere that after Pearl harbor, Churchill looked at a map and saw there is nothing really to stop Imperial Japan from here to there (from US to China)..and lost the rest of his hair...(or something like that )
Posted by: runner at December 07, 2017 06:56 PM (QC/4S)

He saw it as the salvation of Britain and victory in the West. Even though war had not been declared with Germany he knew that would happen.
Posted by: Keith at December 07, 2017 06:58 PM (USf3s)

uff da

Posted by: runner at December 07, 2017 07:02 PM (QC/4S)

254 246 If Trump were Presdent back then, We wood have lost all the ships !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Posted by: Mary Clogginstien from Brattleboro at December 07, 2017 07:00 PM (u54O2)

We wouldn't have needed any. Trump would've gotten the Nazis to fight the Japanese.

Posted by: Dack Thrombosis at December 07, 2017 07:02 PM (4ErVI)

255 Ernest Evans!

Posted by: Tex at December 07, 2017 07:03 PM (Tto6v)

256 Pretty much shows how our gross misunderstanding and stereotypes of the Japanese (we took them for granted and dismissed their threat) and theirs of us (we were weak and would be easily managed into a settled peace) led to both the attack and the fact we were not really prepared for it when we arrived.

I heard from people much older than myself that War was expected, just not Pearl Harbor.

Seattle or LA - the west coast shipbuilders of the time. Alaska - cut off one of our fuel supply routes & tie up Canada. Just not an attack that far south ...

Posted by: Adriane the Political Critic ... at December 07, 2017 07:03 PM (AoK0a)

257 Posted by: Jane D'oh at December 07, 2017 06:58 PM (ptqGC)

Well, they did make him a 90 day wonder, sent him eventually on to college and then to master's and phd. Got undergrad in engineering and then a masters and phd in military science. Engineered the ice tunnel in Thule, Greenland to spy on the soviets and eventually wrote the logistics studies on Vietnam,

What's scary is that he was orginally army air corps but his eyes were bad (he didn't know) and they pushed him over to the Corps of Engineers. He probably wouldn't have made it if he had stayed in the air corps.

I put an Corps of Engineer castle on his headstone.

Posted by: dagny at December 07, 2017 07:03 PM (eO5CB)

258 So franken resigning... eventually... maybe.

THis is an attempt to flip the narrative. Right now its "Franken makes Moore okay" so he's trying to reverse it: I was going to quit but they elected him anyway, so now I should stay.

Posted by: Christopher R Taylor at December 07, 2017 07:03 PM (39g3+)

259 227 I remember reading somewhere that after Pearl harbor, Churchill looked at a map and saw there is nothing really to stop Imperial Japan from here to there (from US to China)..and lost the rest of his hair...(or something like that )
Posted by: runner at December 07, 2017 06:56 PM (QC/4S)

He saw it as the salvation of Britain and victory in the West. Even though war had not been declared with Germany he knew that would happen.

Posted by: Keith at December 07, 2017 06:58 PM (USf3s)

Saw an ad today for a new Churchill movie coming out....Darkest Hour.
Posted by: Tami at December 07, 2017 07:02 PM (Enq6K)

looking forward to that one

Posted by: runner at December 07, 2017 07:03 PM (QC/4S)

260 196
Dave in Fla, I googled Harris Corp and wiki says

"They specialize in surveillance solutions,[2] microwave weaponry,[3] and electronic warfare"

MICROWAVE weaponry - we're gonna nuke the Norks, aren't we?

I keed, I keed

Posted by: votermom pimping great books! at December 07, 2017 07:03 PM (hMwEB)

261 240
C'mon guys it's an engineering firm doing defense related work.

Something to do with North Korea I'd say.

Posted by: Dack Thrombosis at December 07, 2017 06:59 PM (4ErVI)

Yeah, sorry. I was on another thought and skipping around in the comments and missed that.

Posted by: flounder, rebel, vulgarian, deplorable, winner at December 07, 2017 07:03 PM (tbOMB)

262 12/7 and 9/11, two cowardly sneak attacks where we didn't even know we were at war until the attack. And we still haven't won the latter war yet, because our Lord Haw Haws and Tokyo Roses are no longer outside the country. They're our politicians, educators and CEOs.

Posted by: Steve and Cold Bear at December 07, 2017 07:04 PM (/qEW2)

263 nood

Posted by: sock_rat_eez at December 07, 2017 07:04 PM (HySvC)

264 Problem is, my [elderly male relative] keep changing his stories, to cover up the insane misbehavior he used to brag about. I've tried "interviewing" him, but get different stories each time, contradicting each other.

Well yeah, there's that. And there are people who really don't want to remember the stuff they did. It was war, so you do awful things. Sometimes more terrible than were necessary out of rage and frustration and fear. Things you want to forget, and sometimes just bury so much you do forget.

Posted by: Christopher R Taylor at December 07, 2017 07:05 PM (39g3+)

265 No, that isn't hush hush at all. I work for Harris Corporation.

Posted by: Dave in Fla at December 07, 2017 06:48 PM (wfDW1)

Huh.... I work for a company that makes things for Harris....... you sure you want to be saying things here?

Posted by: SSBN 656 (G) at December 07, 2017 07:05 PM (br2jI)

266 Nood.

Posted by: What's a Seawolf? at December 07, 2017 07:05 PM (KCgrJ)

267 220 Those of you with WWII vets in the family, or know any, please please consider interviewing them, or see if they've written down their stories, and if they have original documents - and check out the Library of Congress' Veterans' History project (on their website). A file is created for each vet. The website explains what is accepted.

Civilians involved in war work are included.

I have done about 6 of these interviews, and helped organize their documents for eventual donation. Time is obviously of the essence.

Posted by: rhomboid at December 07, 2017 06:55 PM (QDnY+)

My husband's grandfather was a WWI vet. Hubby recorded him talking about his life and the war.

Husband's brother, who lived with us for a short period of time, recorded over the cassette tape. I though a vein in my husband's head was going to explode.

Posted by: Tami at December 07, 2017 07:05 PM (Enq6K)

268 What's scary is that he was orginally army air corps
but his eyes were bad (he didn't know) and they pushed him over to the
Corps of Engineers. He probably wouldn't have made it if he had stayed
in the air corps.

I put an Corps of Engineer castle on his headstone.

Posted by: dagny at December 07, 2017 07:03 PM (eO5CB)

My dad was underweight and flatfooted. Put him in the Army Air Corps and made him a test pilot. He was a test pilot for 22 years.

Posted by: Jane D'oh at December 07, 2017 07:06 PM (ptqGC)

269 Saw an ad today for a new Churchill movie coming out....Darkest Hour.
Posted by: Tami at December 07, 2017 07:02 PM

Can't believe that's Gary Freekin Oldman!

Posted by: Jarvis W. Deplorable at December 07, 2017 07:06 PM (RErNf)

270 >>The Axis made the same fatal calculation that the American South made

And that's when the fight started.

Posted by: JackStraw at December 07, 2017 07:06 PM (/tuJf)

271 My grandfather was a recipient of the Croix de Guerre as a Lt. who fought in WWI in the battle of the Argonne Forest. I have it hanging on a wall in a hallway, and have his actual medal, etc.

He died of cancer in '47, three years before my parents met and married (they married three months after meeting each other--wonderful love story).

Posted by: Jane D'oh at December 07, 2017 07:08 PM (ptqGC)

272 Saw a artical today that the brain damage the state department personnel got in Cuba is something never seen before and has caused major brain damage.
Jug Ears BFF

Posted by: Skip at December 07, 2017 07:08 PM (aC6Sd)

273 Posted by: Dave in Fla at December 07, 2017 06:58 PM (wfDW1)

I was a one-man drafting department doing ECO's and updating a few procedures for a radar truck. Nothing groundbreaking, but I was happy. Y'all were a great customer of ours.

I enjoyed working for and with you guys. My Dave was quietly cool and a very sharp fellow.

Good times.

Posted by: BackwardsBoy at December 07, 2017 07:09 PM (tRaq7)

274 Saw an ad today for a new Churchill movie coming out....Darkest Hour.
Posted by: Tami at December 07, 2017 07:02 PM (Enq6K)

In a war of millions, with great heroes and leaders IMO he was the most important figure in the victory. At a time when there was some pressure at home for a settled peace, with beyond favorable terms from Hitler and Britain standing alone, he solidified the will of the country to fight.

I didn't hear of that production but I'll be tracking it now. Thanks.

Posted by: Keith at December 07, 2017 07:09 PM (USf3s)

275 Anna Puma (HQCaR)

FADM Halsey was not remembered institutionally in the Navy as well as ADM Spruance for several reasons.

1) Spruance won at Midway.
2) Spruance was brilliant as commander of 5th Fleet. He followed good plans, and avoided needless trouble. If Spruance had been at Leyte Gulf, no US ship would have been lost to IJN surface ships.

3) Halsey was good for back-to-the-wall fights, but not as good a fleet commander. His 3rd Fleet (the same ships as 5th Fleet) rarely followed the initial plan. Out of place several times.
2) During Leyte Gulf his ships were in the wrong spot, and he did not detach his BB Task Group early enough to trap the retreating IJN ships after they left Taffy 3. The Iowa class BBs missed the IJN ships be a few measly hours.
3) He commanded 3rd Fleet into not one but two severe typhoons, loosing ships, men and planes. This was avoidable.

Posted by: NaCly Dog at December 07, 2017 07:11 PM (hyuyC)

276
118 @31 A Bridge Too Far

One of my favorite war films. When Hopkins tells the German officer he cannot accept their surrender . . . beautiful.

Of course, I can only say that because of my vantage point.
Posted by: 15-Minute Hitler at December 07, 2017 06:29 PM (Bq6b0)

It's actually a junior officer that gives the snarky refusal of the German surrender. Just as it was in real life.

The thing is, when William Goldman was writing the script, he had to consolidate a lot of the events into as few characters as possible, and that scene was originally written with John Frost giving the line.

When Frost read the script as one of the technical consultants, he was aghast. He called up Goldman and LITERALLY begged him to change the script. He was afraid that his fellow veterans would see him as trying to take a great badass moment away from one of his subordinate officers.

Posted by: IllTemperedCur at December 07, 2017 07:12 PM (eXA4G)

277 In a war of millions, with great heroes and leaders IMO he was the most important figure in the victory. At a time when there was some pressure at home for a settled peace, with beyond favorable terms from Hitler and Britain standing alone, he solidified the will of the country to fight.

I didn't hear of that production but I'll be tracking it now. Thanks.

Posted by: Keith at December 07, 2017 07:09 PM (USf3s)

We've recently watched about 3 movies about him on Netflix and Prime. Gathering Storm, Into the Storm and another I can't remember.

Posted by: Tami at December 07, 2017 07:13 PM (Enq6K)

278 My dad and 2 brothers fought in WW2. A Marine who was at Pearl Harbor and then went to Saipan where he was wounded and 2 Army in Europe. All gone, but we have a bunch of letters they wrote home, empty shell casings, Nazi paper money, a pistol, bayonet, etc. and have it all stashed in my dad's footlocker. I hope my nieces and nephew appreciate it all and become keepers of the history when we're gone. I really looked up to those guys and were the reason for my enlistment.

Posted by: dartist at December 07, 2017 07:13 PM (nisXv)

279 I heard from people much older than myself that War was expected, just not Pearl Harbor.

Seattle or LA - the west coast shipbuilders of the time. Alaska - cut off one of our fuel supply routes & tie up Canada. Just not an attack that far south ...
Posted by: Adriane the Political Critic ... at December 07, 2017 07:03 PM (AoK0a)

It was expected, in some "very soon" time frame. It was widely though to be the Philippines, according to Prange. Even though we had war gamed attacks on Pearl Harbor we didn't respect the Japanese enough at the time to figure they would be that bold. Of course we were't ready in the Philippines either.

Posted by: Keith at December 07, 2017 07:14 PM (USf3s)

280 Or sometimes it's a naval version of the Alamo and it's a good day to die.

Or you can look at the final scene in the movie The Bridges at Toko Ri, and ponder Lt. Brubaker's (William Holden) last words, "I'm just a lawyer from Denver, what am I doing here?"

You do what you have to do--soldier, sailor, airman, Marine.

Posted by: Comanche Voter at December 07, 2017 07:17 PM (Sda6L)

281 On my gaming sitd someone did a review of the Longest Day, which was written by the same author as A Bridge To Far Cornelius Ryan. OBoth movies followed the books very well, only part in The Longest Day is the ending blowing the embankment up. But alk the littld snippets are real. I have read them all ( The Last Battle is the other one)

Posted by: Skip at December 07, 2017 07:20 PM (aC6Sd)

282 After Midway, the IJN admirals were very nervous about US Carriers too. Sadly, Admiral Fletcher was even more nervous about Japanese carriers but so it goes.

Posted by: Mark Andrew Edwards at December 07, 2017 06:43 PM (xJa6I)

----

Fletcher had good reason to be nervous. The USN carriers took a beating from IJN carrier aircraft in the Battle of the Eastern Solomons and the Battle of the Santa Cruz Islands.

Posted by: Gref at December 07, 2017 07:21 PM (AMIL/)

283 Supper time, later gators.

Y'all try to behave.

Posted by: BackwardsBoy at December 07, 2017 07:23 PM (tRaq7)

284 Salty Dawg, I am not defending Halsey. Merely asking why did Hornfischer think that needed to be added to the book?

The Japanese had contingency plans in case the US Pacific Fleet was in its usual training area off Oahu. So yes more than two first line battleships would have been lost forever. And Colorado would not have been combat ready by February 1942. As for battleships sans air cover surviving any Japanese air attack, well the fate of Prince of Wales put the final kibosh on that delusion. What happened to Musashi and Yamato were merely exclamation points marking the end of the battleship as Queen of the Seas.

Posted by: Anna Puma (HQCaR) at December 07, 2017 07:23 PM (mB06r)

285 If anywone wants - review of the Longest Day
http://aquestionofscale.blogspot.co.uk/2017/12/film-review-longest-day-1962.html

Posted by: Skip at December 07, 2017 07:24 PM (aC6Sd)

286 My favorite World War II book is "With the Old Breed" by Eugene Sledge, walking the battlefield tour of Okinawa brought Sledge's experience to life, and gave me pause to consider whether I would have been able to slog on day after day for 83 days of horror. We owe a debt we can never repay.

Posted by: The Mouse that Roared, Americans don't Serf at December 07, 2017 07:24 PM (DxWUs)

287 Oh FFS!

Rep. Trent Franks (R-Ariz.) announced Thursday that he would resign from office as of Jan. 31, 2018, after discussing surrogacy issues with female staffers.

"I have recently learned that the Ethics Committee is reviewing an inquiry regarding my discussion of surrogacy with two previous female subordinates, making each feel uncomfortable," he said in a statement. "I deeply regret that my discussion of this option and process in the workplace caused distress."

The shark has been jumped....

Posted by: Tami at December 07, 2017 07:26 PM (Enq6K)

288 There where several episodes where Halsey should have been cashiered but the Battle off Samar was the most egregious. The USN lost 1500 dead and the chance to utterly eradicate the IJN and had Halsey not been such a hothead that could have been very different. Then he nearly got half his fleet sunk in a typhoon.

Posted by: David Gillies at December 07, 2017 07:30 PM (Jipp3)

289 Currently reading With The Old Breed At Peleliu And Okinawa by E.B Sledge. For the 3rd time.

Posted by: Eromero at December 07, 2017 07:30 PM (zLDYs)

290 My kids are outside playing in the wet SNOW...in the dark. Hey, it's Austin, TX!

Posted by: lin-duh at December 07, 2017 07:30 PM (kufk0)

291 Before the folding wing -4 Wildcat entered service, space aboard US carriers was extremely cramped.

Each VT had up to 18 TBD Devastators. They at least had folding wings. The VS and VB squadrons had 18 SBD Dauntless dive-bombers that because of the Jack Northrop designed multi-cellular wing could never be made to fold. Which left room for maybe 12 fighters for the VF units.

So Fletcher and Sherman at Coral Sea had 24 Wildcat fighters to defend the ships and to send as cover for their strikes. Which is why Lexington employed VS Dauntless bombers as an inner anti-torpedo bomber CAP.

With the arrival of the -4, more fighters could finally be put on ship. So each VF became 18 planes. Which was starting to be used at Midway and was in full effect at Guadalcanal.

Posted by: Anna Puma (HQCaR) at December 07, 2017 07:32 PM (mB06r)

292 My Dad was at Pearl on 12/7. He commanded the medical supply depot at Schofield. He had been in the islands for 2 yrs. and was very much a part of wartime planning. I have a letter he wrote to one of his sisters in January of '41 in which he makes reference to 'when the war comes here' three separate times.

He always blamed Roosevelt. When the NAVAL command was changed and the Fleet ordered into Pearl the Island Command KNEW they would be attacked and intensified their preparations. One thing he did was order two BOAT load of medical supplies. The first load left San Francisco on December 6.

They expected an invasion in the spring of '42 - did not expect a mere raid. They knew no invasion could happen unless Japan pulled troops from China. Once winter hit the No. Pacific the Japanese could not bring an invasion force until spring.

I tried for years to get him to write or dictate his memories - he always refused saying "I once took an oath not to do that. Nobody has released me from that oath".

Posted by: Lurking Cynic at December 07, 2017 07:52 PM (56GWb)

293 oops - That letter to sister was JUNE of '41 - not January.

Gotta' edit the damn spell-check better.

Posted by: Lurking Cynic at December 07, 2017 07:54 PM (56GWb)

294 284

Agree. We are in accord.

Sorry if my tone was off. i was just listing the internal reasons why the Navy did what it did.

Congress gave Halsey a fifth star, with the benefits that go with it. Spruance was given a special deal after the Navy complained.

Posted by: NaCly Dog at December 07, 2017 07:56 PM (hyuyC)

295 I tried for years to get him to write or dictate his memories - he
always refused saying "I once took an oath not to do that. Nobody has
released me from that oath

In the last few years of my dad's life I started asking him questions and I think we were able to half ass track his movements through Europe which ended at Remagen. Got drunk with an uncle a few times and he reluctantly told me a few stories about Saipan. I felt bad about coaxing him to relive it those few times but for the most part I was too young and dumb to ask the WW2 guys in my family about anything. Millions of stories untold.

Posted by: dartist at December 07, 2017 08:04 PM (nisXv)

296 Millions of stories untold from that war, not my family. Though they can talk.

Posted by: dartist at December 07, 2017 08:07 PM (nisXv)

297 Ace, you should really dive into the history of World War II -- the most dramatic and apocalyptic war of all human history, and with genuine heroes and evil villains, demonic actually. The stakes had never been higher; the battle lines never clearer.

Churchill's Nobel-Prize-winning history of the war makes good bedside reading. "The Gathering Storm" is the first volume.

Posted by: Beverly at December 07, 2017 08:30 PM (GXtQy)

298 Rear Admiral Clifton Sprague was the captain of the ship my Dad was on at Pearl Harbor.

Posted by: lynndh at December 07, 2017 09:17 PM (N33+S)

299 My wife's grandpa was captured at Hurtgen in the winter of 44. He was an artillery mechanic pressed into duty as infantry. His story of their prison camp(guards and prisoners alike) crossing Germany on foot to reach the Western front and escape German and Russian forces so the guards could surrender and the prisoners be liberated is friggin' epic. 1 in 10 survived the trek, and when he returned stateside him and his wife proceeded to have 12 children. Sadly, he passed away last Christmas. He was deeply religious, and one of the finest human beings I've ever met.

Posted by: The Lonebadger at December 07, 2017 09:37 PM (5leUT)

300 The Rape of Nanking was a rounding error in what the Japs did in China. Difference was a foreign enclave existed, semi-autonomously, and there were witnesses and records.
I see that Arizona vets can elect to be buried with their buddies. A park service diver, who installs the urns, says he can feel the ship pulling her crewmen into her.
How would you like to live your life with that loss hanging over you?

Posted by: Richard Aubrey at December 08, 2017 12:06 AM (bcw4+)

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