Pence, Trump Used Carrots and Possible Stick to Convince Carrier to Leave Close to 1000 Jobs in the US

Carrier was singled out by Trump repeatedly on the campaign trail due to its plan to shutter a US factory and move it to Mexico.

Carrier has now said it's reached a "compromise" and will be keeping almost 1000 jobs in Indiana. (They had until now employed 1,400 there.)

Carrier's mind seems to have been changed by Pence offering some level of subsidy to the company (a tax break or what not; terms are undisclosed) and United Technology -- Carrier's parent corporation -- realizing that their big, huge military contracts might be in jeopardy if they moved the plant out of the US.

Posted by: Ace at 05:40 PM

Comments

(Jump to bottom of comments)

1 I like carrots.

Posted by: Harry Paratestes at November 30, 2016 05:40 PM (cJrMO)

2 First? Also, time warp?

Posted by: Harry Paratestes at November 30, 2016 05:40 PM (cJrMO)

3 Trump's protectionism is juicy red meat for the populace, but I'm hoping beyond hope that he's got some actual tax and regulatory reformation planning in the works. He's constantly harping on the former, yet I've only heard him mention the latter once in passing during the campaign.

Posted by: antisocial justice beatnik at November 30, 2016 05:41 PM (jV8Mq)

4 This agreement happened on my watch. My watch!

Posted by: POTUS Barry at November 30, 2016 05:41 PM (Fp4vv)

5 Carrots make you see things better. A stick makes you see them twice as well.

Posted by: Roy at November 30, 2016 05:41 PM (fWLrt)

6 10th?

Posted by: Crusader at November 30, 2016 05:42 PM (ewSN2)

7
He gave them an offer they couldn't refuse.

Posted by: Soothsayer at November 30, 2016 05:42 PM (LWYzG)

8 Carrots and sticks work. That's why there's that old saying, "carrots and sticks work."

Posted by: Dang at November 30, 2016 05:42 PM (8b+oT)

9 The art of the deal in action. It's going to be an interesting 4 years!

Posted by: IC at November 30, 2016 05:43 PM (a0IVu)

10 I have often wondered why States offer huge subsidies and tax breaks for a company t locate in their State but seldom offer existing companies similar breaks.

But what I would really prefer is to have the corporate tax structure reduced substantially for ALL companies and not have to compete with other States in the gift department.

The US currently has some of the highest corporate taxes in the world and the Democrats are responsible for that.

Posted by: Vic We Have No Party at November 30, 2016 05:43 PM (mpXpK)

11 Did they put the carrots in chili?

Posted by: buzzion at November 30, 2016 05:43 PM (z/Ubi)

12 I.... have mixed feelings about this kind of stuff, TBH.

But I mean, it's the world we live in. Carroting and Sticking the private sector to do what we want.

But United Technology is always at the trough anyways. If the fedgov got angry with them, they'd go out of business in about 2 minutes flat.

I don't think Otis Elevators could carry the entire business (is there a pun there? if so, it was intended.)

Posted by: Harry Paratestes at November 30, 2016 05:44 PM (cJrMO)

13 Carrots and sticks? You should see where I stick a cigar! Kinky, man. Really.

Posted by: Bill Clinton reminding you of his LEGACY at November 30, 2016 05:44 PM (8b+oT)

14
Amended poat title:

Pence, Trump Used Carrots and Possible Stick to Convince Carrier to Leave Close to 1000 Jobs in the US, Woman And Minorities Hardest Hit

Posted by: Soothsayer at November 30, 2016 05:44 PM (LWYzG)

15 UT gets dibs on contracts for Trump's new fighter, the F-Iran.

Posted by: Roy at November 30, 2016 05:44 PM (fWLrt)

16 Trump has done more for American workers in one month as President-elect than pbho has done in 8 years.

Posted by: NaCly Dog at November 30, 2016 05:44 PM (u82oZ)

17 The US currently has some of the highest corporate taxes in the world and the Democrats are responsible for that.
------------

I would love to see the states compete the corporate tax rate down to zero but I think the federal rate is so high, they just aren't that impactful either way.

Posted by: Moron Pundit at November 30, 2016 05:44 PM (xeeHA)

18
"...Women and Minorities Hardest Hit"

must now be in every post title involving Donald Trump.

Posted by: Soothsayer at November 30, 2016 05:45 PM (LWYzG)

19 Leftists decrying Corporate Welfare in 3...2...1...

Posted by: davidt at November 30, 2016 05:45 PM (XoldI)

20 As long as they didn't put carrots in the chili.

Posted by: Insomniac at November 30, 2016 05:45 PM (0mRoj)

21 The US currently has some of the highest corporate taxes in the world and the Democrats are responsible for that.
Posted by: Vic We Have No Party at November 30, 2016 05:43 PM (mpXpK)

In my experience, most of the carroty chili deals involve property tax "rebates" from the municipalities, cuz that's where the big bucks are for big companies with big buildings.

Most find ways to pay very little in state corporate taxes.

Posted by: Harry Paratestes at November 30, 2016 05:45 PM (cJrMO)

22 As long as the carrots aren't in chili...

Posted by: WhatWhatWhat? - Takin' My Time on my Ride at November 30, 2016 05:45 PM (WlGX+)

23 >>Pence, Trump Used Carrots...Convince Carrier to Leave Close to 1000 Jobs in the US

Keep those jobs here or the Puppy goes in the Chili.

Posted by: VP Pence at November 30, 2016 05:45 PM (MQZBa)

24 This is far better than buying them (auto industry) with tax money and turning them over to the unions.

Posted by: Diogenes at November 30, 2016 05:46 PM (0tfLf)

25 Yeah this was my concern: what was the deal? What did they offer from the federal government to make the company stay?

I don't want the fed to turn into a goodies bank for companies who say they want to leave.

Posted by: Christopher R Taylor at November 30, 2016 05:46 PM (39g3+)

26
Oh, so this isn't a chili heresy thread.

Posted by: IllTemperedCur at November 30, 2016 05:46 PM (LuZz8)

27 Pence, Trump Used Carrots and Possible Stick to Convince Carrier to Leave Close to 1000 Jobs in the US

-----------

Trump's got the economy improving already, and he hasn't even taken office yet.

Posted by: Farmer Joe at November 30, 2016 05:46 PM (zSMr0)

28 Chuck Schumer declares that the incoming president has declared a war on Carrots & Sticks

Posted by: batterup at November 30, 2016 05:46 PM (mtGE/)

29 He's Teddy Rooseveldt only he's loud and obnoxious rather than soft spoken.

Posted by: simplemind at November 30, 2016 05:46 PM (xVRrG)

30 Trump has done more for American workers in one month as President-elect than pbho has done in 8 years.

Basically.

Best President Elect ever. Things are already shifting.

Posted by: eleven at November 30, 2016 05:46 PM (qUNWi)

31 Part of the Trump/Pence tax proposal is to reduce corporate tax to 15%, is it not?

Posted by: IC at November 30, 2016 05:46 PM (a0IVu)

32 He's Teddy Rooseveldt only he's loud and obnoxious rather than soft spoken.
------------

Speak obnoxiously and carry a yuuge stick bigly.

Posted by: Moron Pundit at November 30, 2016 05:47 PM (xeeHA)

33 I liked the "we'll slap a fucking tariff on your ass" stick better. Because at least it's an even handed stick.

Instead of the "we'll subsidize your property taxes by raising the tax rates of the little old lady down the street eeking by on a social security check" carrot.

But again -- whatever. I'm sure the 1000 people working there don't care how much carrot is in the chili, as long as they still have their chili.

Posted by: Harry Paratestes at November 30, 2016 05:47 PM (cJrMO)

34 They threatened to send Carrot Top to Indy to stand in their lobby if they didn't acquiesce.

Posted by: Roy at November 30, 2016 05:47 PM (fWLrt)

35 Teddy was in no way not loud and boisterous

Posted by: Clarkson at November 30, 2016 05:48 PM (vhbai)

36 Speak obnoxiously and carry a yuuge stick bigly.

Tweet like a big loud fucker and carry a big stick?

Posted by: eleven at November 30, 2016 05:48 PM (qUNWi)

37 What the hell is "Carrier"? A company? Never heard of it. What do they make or do?

Posted by: zombie at November 30, 2016 05:48 PM (jBuUi)

38 C'mon ace, a post with "carrots" in the headline and NOW you take Carrot Man off the sidebar?

Posted by: bluebell at November 30, 2016 05:48 PM (Zokmo)

39 I like the part of the movie where the guy stands up and says "White Lives Matter," and people don't die.

Posted by: General Zod at November 30, 2016 05:48 PM (hgpSN)

40 I don't want the fed to turn into a goodies bank for companies who say they want to leave.
Posted by: Christopher R Taylor at November 30, 2016 05:46 PM (39g3+)

Well, they're already a goodies bank for everyone with connections as it is. I guess the goody bank tellers may as well use their power for good instead of evil.

I guess.

Posted by: Harry Paratestes at November 30, 2016 05:48 PM (cJrMO)

41 If it is good enough for Carrier it should be good enough for Ford or any other of the companies threatening to leave the US.
The US, like it or not, is presently a hostile place in which to do business.
Trump should turn that around.
If he doesn't he is one and done, imho.

Posted by: navybrat at November 30, 2016 05:48 PM (w7KSn)

42 Do we know he offered them money?

I'd have thought he'd have appealed to their patriotism, with the implicit threat that he'll demonize them otherwise.

Carrier could have been Trump's PATCO if they played their cards wrong. If I were CEO of Carrier, that's what I'd be thinking. New boss is going to want to make a point by making an example of somebody.

Posted by: Deplorable Jay Guevara at November 30, 2016 05:48 PM (SRKgf)

43 Obama always said "speak softly, and stick a carrot up your ass".

Posted by: Roy at November 30, 2016 05:48 PM (fWLrt)

44 zombie, Carrier makes HVAC units.

Posted by: bluebell at November 30, 2016 05:48 PM (Zokmo)

45 Sooooo...a carrot stick then?

Posted by: ajmojo at November 30, 2016 05:48 PM (1H9ox)

46 37 What the hell is "Carrier"? A company? Never heard of it. What do they make or do?
Posted by: zombie at November 30, 2016 05:48 PM (jBuUi)

Air conditioning.

Posted by: Insomniac at November 30, 2016 05:49 PM (0mRoj)

47 What the hell is "Carrier"? A company? Never heard of it. What do they make or do?
-----------
HVAC stuff, mostly. You probably don't need their services in California.

Posted by: Moron Pundit at November 30, 2016 05:49 PM (xeeHA)

48 37 What the hell is "Carrier"? A company? Never heard of it. What do they make or do?
Posted by: zombie at November 30, 2016 05:48 PM (jBuUi)

Air conditioners, IIRC.

Posted by: Deplorable Jay Guevara at November 30, 2016 05:49 PM (SRKgf)

49 36 Speak obnoxiously and carry a yuuge stick bigly.

Tweet like a big loud fucker and carry a big stick?
Posted by: eleven

Tweet brassily and have fingers, and by extension a penis, that is just on the small side of IMMENSE.

Posted by: zombie at November 30, 2016 05:49 PM (jBuUi)

50 I don't want the fed to turn into a goodies bank for companies who say they want to leave.

Word. But I think in Carrier's case it's more of a visuals thing. Trump excoriated them repeatedly on the campaign trail. Keeping them here plays into the image that he wants to project, right off the bat. And I have a feeling this one is more about those defense contracts than any subsidies.

But we shall see...

Posted by: WhatWhatWhat? - Takin' My Time on my Ride at November 30, 2016 05:49 PM (ul9CR)

51 37 What the hell is "Carrier"? A company? Never heard of it. What do they make or do?
Posted by: zombie at November 30, 2016 05:48 PM (jBuUi)

Air Conditioner compressors and other stuff like that. Commercial refrigerators.

Beer coolers.

Owned by United Technologies, one of the croniest companies on the planet.

Posted by: Harry Paratestes at November 30, 2016 05:49 PM (cJrMO)

52 I saw Carrot Top open for the Red Hot Chili Peppers at the Hollywood Bowl.

Posted by: davidt at November 30, 2016 05:49 PM (XoldI)

53 Why not give them a break on property taxes. Churches get a 100% break. When you have one on every city block inside the town that makes for some damn high taxes for the rest of the people.

Posted by: Vic We Have No Party at November 30, 2016 05:49 PM (mpXpK)

54 Carrier makes furnaces. Good for burning pesos.

Posted by: Roy at November 30, 2016 05:49 PM (fWLrt)

55 What the hell is "Carrier"? A company? Never heard of it. What do they make or do?
...
Heating and cooling units.

Posted by: ajmojo at November 30, 2016 05:49 PM (1H9ox)

56 Carrier is jerbs.

Posted by: eleven at November 30, 2016 05:49 PM (qUNWi)

57 45
Sooooo...a carrot stick then?

Posted by: ajmojo at November 30, 2016 05:48 PM (1H9ox)
Carrot cake.

Posted by: IC at November 30, 2016 05:49 PM (a0IVu)

58 Pence threatened to put carrots in Carrier's chili.

Posted by: Deplorable votermom @vm on Gab at November 30, 2016 05:49 PM (Om16U)

59 Baby steps.

Posted by: eleven at November 30, 2016 05:50 PM (qUNWi)

60 Will this have any impact on Common Core?

Posted by: Crusader at November 30, 2016 05:50 PM (ewSN2)

61 Pence, Trump Used Carrots and Possible Stick to Convince Carrier to Leave Close to 1000 Jobs in the US

I'd rather eat a stick than a carrot.

Posted by: ThePrimordialOrderedPair at November 30, 2016 05:50 PM (zc3Db)

62 Will this have any impact on Common Core?

Nope.

Posted by: eleven at November 30, 2016 05:50 PM (qUNWi)

63 Trumps fingers look like baby carrots.

Posted by: ajmojo at November 30, 2016 05:51 PM (1H9ox)

64 Lots of the open face fridges full of vegetables and milk and shit at the grocery store are also made by carrier.

You'd recognize their logo, I'm sure.

Posted by: Harry Paratestes at November 30, 2016 05:51 PM (cJrMO)

65 >>Most find ways to pay very little in state corporate taxes.

Companies don't pay taxes. They either pass them on to the consumer in the form of higher prices, move or close.

Posted by: JackStraw at November 30, 2016 05:51 PM (/tuJf)

66 63 Trumps fingers look like baby carrots.
Posted by: ajmojo

Correction:

Baby JUMBO carrots.

Posted by: zombie at November 30, 2016 05:51 PM (jBuUi)

67 zombie, you've never seen "Carrier" on a/c units?

Posted by: Deplorable votermom @vm on Gab at November 30, 2016 05:51 PM (Om16U)

68 [What the hell is "Carrier"? A company? Never heard of it. What do they make or do?]

Carriers deliver the mail. My father was a mail carrier.

Posted by: Katshit at November 30, 2016 05:51 PM (XoldI)

69 Companies don't pay taxes. They either pass them on to the consumer in the form of higher prices, move or close.
Posted by: JackStraw at November 30, 2016 05:51 PM (/tuJf)

That is so.

Posted by: Harry Paratestes at November 30, 2016 05:51 PM (cJrMO)

70 Damn. How'd he do that?

Posted by: Emperor Clusterfuck I at November 30, 2016 05:52 PM (qJhUV)

71 Carrots won't matter, Hillary is up by 4 in Ohio so it's going to be an early night.

Posted by: Bull Wynn at November 30, 2016 05:52 PM (xeeHA)

72 I'd rather eat a stick than a carrot.

Carrots have their place in stews and ......stew.

And many other things I'm sure.

Posted by: eleven at November 30, 2016 05:52 PM (qUNWi)

73 Yeah, sure, Carrier is staying, but what about Ives?

Posted by: Muldoon at November 30, 2016 05:52 PM (wPiJc)

74 These numbers are way off, no way it is 1000 jobs.

Send me 7 million dollars so I can do a recount

Posted by: Jill Stein at November 30, 2016 05:52 PM (mtGE/)

75 Not carrot infested chili I hope.

Posted by: Pug Mahon, Gloaty McGloatface at November 30, 2016 05:52 PM (RwwCT)

76 In Trump's economy money will be replaced by root vegetables and forest debris.

Posted by: ajmojo at November 30, 2016 05:52 PM (1H9ox)

77 Companies don't pay taxes. They either pass them on to the consumer in the form of higher prices, move or close.

Posted by: JackStraw at November 30, 2016 05:51 PM (/tuJf)

Ding ding ding! We have a winner.

Corporate taxes are just a way for the Federal and state governments to get corporations to collect taxes for them, without said governments taking any heat for raising taxes.

Posted by: Deplorable Jay Guevara at November 30, 2016 05:53 PM (SRKgf)

78 Trumps fingers look like baby carrots.

Yuge baby carrots.

Posted by: eleven at November 30, 2016 05:53 PM (qUNWi)

79 Carrots have their place in stews and ......stew.

And many other things I'm sure.
...
I concur.

Posted by: Hope Solo at November 30, 2016 05:53 PM (1H9ox)

80 67 zombie, you've never seen "Carrier" on a/c units?
Posted by: Deplorable votermom @vm on Gab

Never.

But everyone here apprised me of their activities, so now I'm wise!

Not sure I've ever even seen any air conditioner. They don't have 'em in coastal Northern Freezeafornia.

Posted by: zombie at November 30, 2016 05:53 PM (jBuUi)

81 Thai Salad is a good way to serve carrots.

Better than heathen chili.

Posted by: garrett at November 30, 2016 05:53 PM (MQZBa)

82 Well, at least it appears that Trump was seriously about making a bunch of deals. I'm willing to see where it goes.

Posted by: Moron Pundit at November 30, 2016 05:54 PM (xeeHA)

83 OT so people on Gab are saying that Assange has been missing for a while now.

Posted by: Deplorable votermom @vm on Gab at November 30, 2016 05:54 PM (Om16U)

84 Carrots won't matter, Hillary is up by 4 in Ohio so it's going to be an early night.

Dammit!!

Posted by: eleven at November 30, 2016 05:54 PM (qUNWi)

85 82 Well, at least it appears that Trump was seriously about making a bunch of deals. I'm willing to see where it goes.
Posted by: Moron Pundit at November 30, 2016 05:54 PM (xeeHA)

An amazing lucky streak for such an idiot.

Posted by: Deplorable Jay Guevara at November 30, 2016 05:54 PM (SRKgf)

86 73 Yeah, sure, Carrier is staying, but what about Ives?
Posted by: Muldoon

Personally, I like to put ives in my chili.

Posted by: zombie at November 30, 2016 05:54 PM (jBuUi)

87 Yo!

Posted by: Yo! at November 30, 2016 05:55 PM (GwIKd)

88 Pot Roast!!!

Stew and Pot Roast dammit.

Posted by: eleven at November 30, 2016 05:55 PM (qUNWi)

89 Some people put carrots in jello, but not in pudding.

Nuts are good to put in pudding.

Posted by: Bill Cosby at November 30, 2016 05:55 PM (XoldI)

90 It's business. It's not personal. Certainly Carrier can present a bill for such services; after all we are not Communists.

Trump doesn't like violence. He is a business man. Blood is a big expense.

Posted by: Hairyback Guy at November 30, 2016 05:55 PM (4yZcK)

91 Stop! Enough of this 'Trump creates jobs even before he's inaugurated!' baloney!

That man caused me to fire thousands of loyal, dedicated workers!

Him alone! Nobody else!

Oh, me? Uh, I'm in the..the..non-profit section! Yeah! For the good of everybody! That's me!

Just call me..Rod?

Posted by: I'm Certainly NOT Hillary Clinton Nope No Way! at November 30, 2016 05:55 PM (nd1zx)

92 Trump down 4 in Florida, which is ironically carrot shaped.

Posted by: Pug Mahon, Gloaty McGloatface at November 30, 2016 05:55 PM (RwwCT)

93 Carrots have their place in stews and ......stew.

In the Buffalo area, home of the chicken wing, wing orders are traditionally accompanied by a side of carrot and celery sticks. I guess the idea was to eat something healthy along with your deep-fried coronary wings slathered in bleu cheese.

But mostly they just get ignored and thrown away with the bones. Poor little unloved carrot and celery sticks.

Posted by: WhatWhatWhat? - Takin' My Time on my Ride at November 30, 2016 05:56 PM (ul9CR)

94 Stew and Pot Roast dammit.

Posted by: eleven at November 30, 2016 05:55 PM (qUNWi)

Both are better without carrots.

Posted by: ThePrimordialOrderedPair at November 30, 2016 05:56 PM (zc3Db)

95 An amazing lucky streak for such an idiot.
-------------

When I was on the fence about him, two things kept bringing me back.

1) His family is too stellar to be an accident.
2) He CONTINUOUSLY outperforms expectations. It really is like winning is just a habit for him.

Posted by: Moron Pundit at November 30, 2016 05:56 PM (xeeHA)

96 Well, that explains why the carrier counselor at my high school suggested I go into HVAC.

Posted by: Muldoon at November 30, 2016 05:56 PM (wPiJc)

97 Carrier used to be the top of the premium HVAC units. Don't think they still have that honor. Still in top five though.

Posted by: Sebastian Melmoth at November 30, 2016 05:56 PM (FOeaV)

98 We're close enough to 100 to go OT :

If there are any Ella fans or just Vinyl fans - the new Analog Spark release of Ella Fitzgerald Sings the Cole Porter Songbook is about the best sounding LP collection I have ever listened to.

Posted by: garrett at November 30, 2016 05:56 PM (MQZBa)

99 Posted by: WhatWhatWhat? - Takin' My Time on my Ride at November 30, 2016 05:56 PM (ul9CR)

I always thought it was for a palate cleanser if the hot sauce on the wings was getting to be a big much.

Posted by: Harry Paratestes at November 30, 2016 05:56 PM (cJrMO)

100 Right now the highest rated heat pump is a carrier, followed closely by Trane. Both have been in buisness for over 100 years. I would bet that the quality of the Carrier units would decline if they moved to Mexico.

I have a Carrier unit right now and had a Trane originally. The average lifetime of a heat pump is 15 to 20 years. After that the required repairs start mounting up.

And unless Trump kills Obama's pen and phone regulation of Freon there will be nothing for coolant by the end of next year.

Posted by: Vic We Have No Party at November 30, 2016 05:56 PM (mpXpK)

101 I always thought it was for a palate cleanser if the hot sauce on the wings was getting to be a big much.
...
I'd rather cleanse my palate with a brillo pad. Gross.

Posted by: ajmojo at November 30, 2016 05:57 PM (1H9ox)

102 69 Companies don't pay taxes. They either pass them on to the consumer in the form of higher prices, move or close.
Posted by: JackStraw at November 30, 2016 05:51 PM (/tuJf)

That is so.
Posted by: Harry Paratestes at November 30, 2016 05:51 PM (cJrMO)

Same reason why tariffs are not a panacea. The manufacturer doesn't just humbly eat the cost of it and feel so gosh darn guilty for moving out of the country, they roll it into the sticker on the shelf.

Posted by: hogmartin at November 30, 2016 05:57 PM (8nWyX)

103 Big kerfullfle over at Breitbart...

Kelloggs pulled all their ads, specifically saying that the site was 'not aligned with their values as a company'...

Pulling advertising if silence would have been a business decision... the announcement makes it a political decision...

#War...

Posted by: Don Q. at November 30, 2016 05:58 PM (qf6WZ)

104 And unless Trump kills Obama's pen and phone regulation of Freon there will be nothing for coolant by the end of next year.
Posted by: Vic We Have No Party at November 30, 2016 05:56 PM (mpXpK)

Yes, can I request that we go back to the old freon? The stuff that is now shown to not cause ozone layer holes? That Freon was better and did not need to be recharged every few years.

Posted by: Harry Paratestes at November 30, 2016 05:58 PM (cJrMO)

105 Bam, take that Mexico

Posted by: Yo! at November 30, 2016 05:58 PM (GwIKd)

106 Bribing companies to not leave is not a long-term solution. Its barely a short-term solution, but that's been Trumps idea all along.

The problems driving business away are regulation and unions, not taxes and insufficient goodies thrown at the company by the federal government.

Posted by: Christopher R Taylor at November 30, 2016 05:58 PM (39g3+)

107 "United Technology -- Carrier's parent corporation -- realizing that their big, huge military contracts might be in jeopardy"

Pratt and Whitney, sole-source provider of the very expensive engine for the F-35 Faceplant, is a United Technologies subsidiary.

Trump and his SECDEF need to be coming up with a fallback plan to deal with the obvious failure of the F-35 program. Which won't be easy or fun.

Posted by: torquewrench at November 30, 2016 05:58 PM (noWW6)

108 I always thought it was for a palate cleanser if the hot sauce on the wings was getting to be a big much.

Posted by: Harry Paratestes at November 30, 2016 05:56 PM (cJrMO)

If the hot sauce on the wings is too much no carrot is going to depussify that person. In fact, just the scene of the weeny munching on a carrot while tears stream down his face should be enough that he doesn't venture out of doors for the next 3 weeks.

Posted by: ThePrimordialOrderedPair at November 30, 2016 05:59 PM (zc3Db)

109 For L, Elle from previous thread.

Idk, Tilikum. I'm terrible at judging measurements. They're smallish to average sized rooms, maybe 10 x 12. The deck wraps around my house so it's more work. Do you think those estimates are too high?

Posted by: L, Elle
****

I'm no expert, but yes it sounds too high. The room size you mention will take a little over a gallon. So maybe 4 gallons total of paint and anywhere from $18-$40 per gallon.
Back when I sold paint I always recommended primer, but most people skipped it and were happy with the results. And if they are spraying it on, it should not take them too long to set up and tape etc.

Posted by: Tilikum KAW at November 30, 2016 05:59 PM (0x/TW)

110 104
Yes, can I request that we go back to the old
freon? The stuff that is now shown to not cause ozone layer holes? That
Freon was better and did not need to be recharged every few years.

Posted by: Harry Paratestes at November 30, 2016 05:58 PM (cJrMO)

That ozone hole was another scam before the AGW scam.

Posted by: Vic We Have No Party at November 30, 2016 05:59 PM (mpXpK)

111 Funny alternative to the saying 'sausage party ' if you go to a bar where the male to female ratio is 20 /1 is ' lots of carrots in this stew' .

Posted by: Sebastian Melmoth at November 30, 2016 05:59 PM (FOeaV)

112 Kelloggs pulled all their ads, specifically saying that the site was 'not aligned with their values as a company'...

******

I guess Kellogg's isn't interested in making America Grrrrrrrrrrrreat!

Posted by: Muldoon at November 30, 2016 05:59 PM (wPiJc)

113 Both are better without carrots.

-----------------
Posted by: ThePrimordialOrderedPair at November 30, 2016 05:56 PM (zc3Db)

No.

Posted by: eleven at November 30, 2016 05:59 PM (qUNWi)

114 Carrots are also good for the munchies and keeping your figure

Posted by: Gary Johnson at November 30, 2016 05:59 PM (mtGE/)

115 Big kerfullfle over at Breitbart...
Kelloggs pulled all their ads, specifically saying that the site was 'not aligned with their values as a company'...
Pulling advertising if silence would have been a business decision... the announcement makes it a political decision...
#War...
Posted by: Don Q. at November 30, 2016 05:58 PM (qf6WZ)

Fuck them and their overpriced crap. War it is....wallet closed.

Posted by: Hairyback Guy at November 30, 2016 06:00 PM (4yZcK)

116 Hey, Carrier might want to look at increasing their market share by building better products or maybe negotiating some sweet, sweet insider government contracts. Last time I was in the market for a chill water system they couldn't compete with Trane or York. The management there needs to step up their game.

Posted by: Fritz at November 30, 2016 06:00 PM (6uMKl)

117 Carrot & stick: Code for "you leave for Mexico and when the wall gets built, your shit doesn't come back in"

Posted by: rickb223 at November 30, 2016 06:00 PM (+/zXg)

118 I guess Kellogg's isn't interested in making America Grrrrrrrrrrrreat!

-------------------------

I see what you did there.

Posted by: Moron Pundit at November 30, 2016 06:00 PM (xeeHA)

119 Trump could not save 400 jobs!!

Posted by: Hillary Clinton at November 30, 2016 06:00 PM (IqV8l)

120 Steamed carrots and cabbage with onions is quite tasty.

With vinegar salt and peppa.

Posted by: eleven at November 30, 2016 06:01 PM (qUNWi)

121 Same reason why tariffs are not a panacea. The manufacturer doesn't just humbly eat the cost of it and feel so gosh darn guilty for moving out of the country, they roll it into the sticker on the shelf.

Posted by: hogmartin at November 30, 2016 05:57 PM (8nWyX)

I think the idea of tariffs is to cause price differentials between domestic and foreign-made goods, to make the former more competitive. They're not primarily intended to generate revenue.

Posted by: Deplorable Jay Guevara at November 30, 2016 06:01 PM (SRKgf)

122 Yes corporate taxes are a big problem for US companies. As I said, they are among the highest in the world. And yes, unions and regulations are also a problem.

Posted by: Vic We Have No Party at November 30, 2016 06:01 PM (mpXpK)

123
That ozone hole was another scam before the AGW scam.
Posted by: Vic We Have No Party at November 30, 2016 05:59 PM (mpXpK)

Yes, that much is clear.

Which reminds me -- whatever happened to acid rain? Weren't we all supposed to be dead by now? or something?

Posted by: Harry Paratestes at November 30, 2016 06:01 PM (cJrMO)

124 My dad was a carrier.

Posted by: John McCain Kasich at November 30, 2016 06:01 PM (Fp4vv)

125 Someone might want to ask Kelloggs if they're looking forward to becoming the next Target since they've decided to wade into politics?

Posted by: Crusader at November 30, 2016 06:02 PM (ewSN2)

126 Which reminds me -- whatever happened to acid rain? Weren't we all supposed to be dead by now? or something?
------------
It turned into Chocolate Rain and Rosie O'Donnell ate it.

Posted by: Moron Pundit at November 30, 2016 06:02 PM (xeeHA)

127 That's a really nice business you have going there with the US Military. Be a shame if anything happened to it. ;-)

Posted by: steve walsh at November 30, 2016 06:02 PM (fFfzk)

128 "And unless Trump kills Obama's pen and phone regulation of Freon there will be nothing for coolant by the end of next year."

Here's how this has worked so far and how it will continue to work for the rest of all of our lives:

(a) Existing refrigerants, cheap and off-patent, are denounced as doubleplusungreen assaults upon the Erf.

(b) A costly patented new refrigerant is proposed, and then mandated by Fedzilla, after hefty political donations by its manufacturer.

(c) After a certain number of years and an extremely expensive industrial transition to the patented new refrigerant, it rolls over out of patent and becomes cheap.

(d) Go to (a).

Posted by: torquewrench at November 30, 2016 06:02 PM (noWW6)

129 126 Which reminds me -- whatever happened to acid rain? Weren't we all supposed to be dead by now? or something?
------------
It turned into Chocolate Rain and Rosie O'Donnell ate it.
Posted by: Moron Pundit at November 30, 2016 06:02 PM (xeeHA)

Efficient.

Posted by: Harry Paratestes at November 30, 2016 06:02 PM (cJrMO)

130 120 Steamed carrots and cabbage with onions is quite tasty.

With vinegar salt and peppa.
Posted by: eleven at November 30, 2016 06:01 PM (qUNWi)

oh baby, baby, bb-baby-baby ...that sounds awful

Posted by: Beyonce at November 30, 2016 06:02 PM (mtGE/)

131 >>Pratt and Whitney, sole-source provider of the very expensive engine for the F-35 Faceplant, is a United Technologies subsidiary.

And GE, a company so firmly attached to the government teat you can't tell where one ends and the other begins, is working it's ass off to be second source.

Posted by: JackStraw at November 30, 2016 06:03 PM (/tuJf)

132 83

Did HRC get him?

Posted by: fu52 at November 30, 2016 06:03 PM (HpUpB)

133 Yes, that much is clear.

Which reminds me -- whatever happened to acid rain? Weren't we all supposed to be dead by now? or something?
Posted by: Harry Paratestes at November 30, 2016 06:01 PM (cJrMO)

And have to be running around with rebreathers and ponchos?

Posted by: Aetius451AD at November 30, 2016 06:03 PM (92kX2)

134 oh baby, baby, bb-baby-baby ...that sounds awful

No.

Posted by: eleven at November 30, 2016 06:03 PM (qUNWi)

135 And have to be running around with rebreathers and ponchos?
--------------
That reminds me of this AWESOMELY bad movie called Habitat starring Frasier Crane's brother.

Posted by: Moron Pundit at November 30, 2016 06:04 PM (xeeHA)

136 Posted by: torquewrench at November 30, 2016 06:02 PM (noWW6)

Seriously. The old stuff was just too efficient and lasted too long. So lets bribe some govt assholes and get them to change the law so everyone has to rebuy everything.

My two oldest cars I ever owned -- a '99 and an '01 had ice cold AC until the day they died. Never recharged.

I have to charge the AC on my two '09s every few years now. Yay progress!

Posted by: Harry Paratestes at November 30, 2016 06:04 PM (cJrMO)

137 Posted by: garrett at November 30, 2016 05:56 PM (MQZBa)

Love Ella. Her rendition of "What are you doing New Year's Eve" is just mesmerizing.

Thanks for the recommendation.

Posted by: kallisto at November 30, 2016 06:04 PM (jkmtt)

138 No.

Posted by: eleven at November 30, 2016 05:59 PM (qUNWi)

Yes.

No.

Posted by: eleven at November 30, 2016 06:03 PM (qUNWi)

YES!!

Posted by: ThePrimordialOrderedPair at November 30, 2016 06:04 PM (zc3Db)

139
My dad was a carrier.
Posted by: John McCain Kasich

My mom was.

Posted by: Typhoid Mary's son at November 30, 2016 06:04 PM (IqV8l)

140 "Kelloggs pulled all their ads, specifically saying that the site was 'not aligned with their values as a company'..."

Just a little linguistic observation here:

In an interview back in 2008, candidate Barack Obama, then touting his "Christian" credentials loudly, was asked to define sin, and he replied that it was "being out of alignment with my values".

Not very difficult to connect this particular set of dots.

Posted by: torquewrench at November 30, 2016 06:05 PM (noWW6)

141 Let's send Kellogg to Mexico

Posted by: Nevergiveup at November 30, 2016 06:05 PM (hN38n)

142 And have to be running around with rebreathers and ponchos?
Posted by: Aetius451AD at November 30, 2016 06:03 PM (92kX2)

Yeah, I remember learning about that in elementary school. All the buildings were going to be destroyed, all the drinking water was going to be fucked, and we were all going to die a horrible death due to acid rain.

Then... they moved on to something else. global warming I guess.

You never hear about acid rain anymore. Weird.

Posted by: Harry Paratestes at November 30, 2016 06:05 PM (cJrMO)

143 I always thought it was for a palate cleanser if the hot sauce on the wings was getting to be a big much.

Could be. I've also heard of the Anchor Bar origin story. Back in the early 60s, the Anchor Bar's owners' son came in with a bunch of friends after closing, looking for some chow.

Everything had been cleaned up and put away already already so his mother told him, not thinking they'd actually do it, they all they could have was a bag of chicken wings that was waiting to be thrown out. They threw them in the deep fryer, then spiced them up with hot sauce to cover what they thought was going to be a not-so-great tasting treat. They actually taste just like chicken, but the hot sauce thing stuck.

In some versions of the story, there were some carrot and celery sticks left over as well, so they downed those along with the wings.

Posted by: WhatWhatWhat? - Takin' My Time on my Ride at November 30, 2016 06:06 PM (ul9CR)

144 Looks like Trump might focus on keeping Ohio in the red column, along with the other swing states.

Posted by: davidt at November 30, 2016 06:06 PM (XoldI)

145 Why not give them a break on property taxes.

------------

Do other companies get this same break?

I have no problem with property tax breaks - so long as they apply to everyone equally. If property tax breaks are so good for enticing companies to stay or come, then maybe they should be eliminated.

Posted by: SH at November 30, 2016 06:06 PM (gmeXX)

146 Hey Kellogg's, can you say KABOOM?

Posted by: General Mills at November 30, 2016 06:07 PM (Fp4vv)

147 SO STOP WITH ALL THE CARROTS ALREADY!!!

*Sheesh*

Posted by: Carrier Corp. at November 30, 2016 06:07 PM (8ZskC)

148 Posted by: kallisto at November 30, 2016 06:04 PM (jkmtt)

No problem.

Barnes and Noble had a 30% off sale going this weekend. it was $42 shipped.

I think it list for $64 most places.

Posted by: garrett at November 30, 2016 06:08 PM (MQZBa)

149 What's up, Doc?

Posted by: Bugs Bunny at November 30, 2016 06:08 PM (XoldI)

150 That ozone hole was another scam before the AGW scam.

Posted by: Vic We Have No Party at November 30, 2016 05:59 PM (mpXpK)

I'm not so sure about that. There's a fundamental difference between the two. Chlorine atoms in the upper atmosphere (from chlorofluorocarbons) catalytically disproportionate two ozone molecules into three O2 molecules. (So even a small proportion of chlorine atoms could decompose a hell of a lot of ozone.) Put another way, ozone decomposition would be zeroth order in the concentration of chlorine atoms. It'd be like throwing TWO lit matches into gasoline.

In the AGW conjecture, CO2 cause heat retention on a stoichiometric basis (so over a range, doubling the CO2 partial pressure would double the effect). Put another way, the heat retention would be first order in CO2 partial pressure.

So the ozone depletion hypothesis was, on its face, a lot more plausible than that of AGW.

Posted by: Deplorable Jay Guevara at November 30, 2016 06:09 PM (SRKgf)

151 132 maybe Pedoesta did

Posted by: Deplorable votermom @vm on Gab at November 30, 2016 06:09 PM (Om16U)

152
Today's phrase is...

Force majeure.

Class, who wants to explain what it means?

Posted by: Soothsayer at November 30, 2016 06:09 PM (LWYzG)

153 Why not give them a break on property taxes.

Property taxes are a state issue.

Posted by: ThePrimordialOrderedPair at November 30, 2016 06:09 PM (zc3Db)

154 I have often wondered why States offer huge subsidies and tax breaks for a company t locate in their State but seldom offer existing companies similar breaks.

------------

Its hard to move a company, so you typically don't have to offer it.

And if you didn't have a tax to offer a break too, then you won't get your name in the papers as doing something to entice a company to come to you.

But yea, would seemingly be easier to just eliminate all corporate taxes whatsoever.

Posted by: SH at November 30, 2016 06:09 PM (gmeXX)

155 YES!!

no

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=96B_Q6K7GUY

Posted by: eleven at November 30, 2016 06:09 PM (qUNWi)

156 I have often wondered why States offer huge subsidies and tax breaks for a company t locate in their State but seldom offer existing companies similar breaks.

Same reason your landlord will give breaks to prospective tenants but not to existing tenants. It's a pain in the ass to move, but people in the market for a new place have options.

Posted by: Ace's liver at November 30, 2016 06:09 PM (Xuv2G)

157 Barnes and Noble had a 30% off sale going this weekend. it was $42 shipped.

That's a great price! Now I know what to tell the old man when he asks what I want for Christmas.

Posted by: kallisto at November 30, 2016 06:10 PM (jkmtt)

158 Do other companies get this same break?

I have no problem with property tax breaks - so long as they apply to everyone equally. If property tax breaks are so good for enticing companies to stay or come, then maybe they should be eliminated.
Posted by: SH at November 30, 2016 06:06 PM (gmeXX)

Well, shit, if we're handing out property tax breaks, then I'd like one too.

My property taxes are off the fucking charts.

Posted by: Harry Paratestes at November 30, 2016 06:10 PM (cJrMO)

159 Today's phrase is...

Force majeure.

Class, who wants to explain what it means?

Posted by: Soothsayer at November 30, 2016 06:09 PM (LWYzG)

See the movie, Evolution, for that.

Very funny movie.

Posted by: ThePrimordialOrderedPair at November 30, 2016 06:10 PM (zc3Db)

160 Why not give them a break on property taxes.

Property taxes are a state issue.

------------

And Pence is govenor of that state.

Most voters don't care how the sausage is made.

But I can't say I'm a fan of this.

Posted by: SH at November 30, 2016 06:10 PM (gmeXX)

161
See the movie, Evolution, for that.

Pauly Shore in it?

Posted by: Soothsayer at November 30, 2016 06:11 PM (LWYzG)

162 Trump will be in Chicago soon, will the mayor meet with him? I wonder if Rahm is going to invite him over for dinner? Probably not.....

Posted by: Colin at November 30, 2016 06:11 PM (mIgf1)

163 Well, shit, if we're handing out property tax breaks, then I'd like one too.

My property taxes are off the fucking charts.

--------------

Yeah, I'd like a property tax break myself.

Posted by: SH at November 30, 2016 06:11 PM (gmeXX)

164 You never hear about acid rain anymore. Weird.

Posted by: Harry Paratestes at November 30, 2016 06:05 PM (cJrMO)

Because of steps taken to reduce SO2 and SO3 emissions from coal burning. Acid rain was real; a measurable effect on the pH of rain that followed the plumes from coal-fired plants burning high sulfur coal.

Posted by: Deplorable Jay Guevara at November 30, 2016 06:11 PM (SRKgf)

165 Today's phrase is...

Force majeure.

Class, who wants to explain what it means?
Posted by: Soothsayer at November 30, 2016 06:09 PM (LWYzG)

similar but not the same as "act of god."

It's a term typically found in contracts. Means things outside of your control. Like riots, terrorism, storms, etc.

What do I win?

Posted by: Harry Paratestes at November 30, 2016 06:11 PM (cJrMO)

166 138 No.

Posted by: eleven at November 30, 2016 05:59 PM (qUNWi)

Yes.

No.

Posted by: eleven at November 30, 2016 06:03 PM (qUNWi)

YES!!
Posted by: ThePrimordialOrderedPair at November 30, 2016 06:04 PM (zc3Db)

---------

Will this be a 5 minute argument or the full 30 minutes?

Posted by: Monty Pythons flying circus at November 30, 2016 06:11 PM (aAlFX)

167 Its hard to move a company, so you typically don't have to offer it.

Tell that to Toyota USA leaving Kali for Frisco, Texas. LOL.

Posted by: rickb223 at November 30, 2016 06:11 PM (+/zXg)

168
Property taxes are a state issue.

I thought they were more local than that.
i.e. city or county

Posted by: Bertram Cabot, Jr. at November 30, 2016 06:12 PM (IqV8l)

169 Generally I'm not a fan of "industrial policy" and giving breaks to some companies and not others. But I don't have any problem with the government strong-arming government contractors to keep jobs at home. You take the king's coin...

Posted by: Ace's liver at November 30, 2016 06:12 PM (Xuv2G)

170 156 I have often wondered why States offer huge subsidies and tax breaks for a company t locate in their State but seldom offer existing companies similar breaks.

Same reason your landlord will give breaks to prospective tenants but not to existing tenants. It's a pain in the ass to move, but people in the market for a new place have options.
Posted by: Ace's liver at November 30, 2016 06:09 PM (Xuv2G)

Its the difference between a Private Contract.... and equal application under the (TAX) Law.

Posted by: Don Q. at November 30, 2016 06:12 PM (qf6WZ)

171 150: Yep, that process was observed in some of those ice clouds down in the Antarctic a while back. The clouds acted as some substrate for the process. Anyway, they measured the concentrations of some intermediate product in the breakdown reactions, which proved it was happening.

Posted by: publius (not Breitbart publius) at November 30, 2016 06:12 PM (DW+jj)

172 >>>See the movie, Evolution, for that.

Pauly Shore in it?

Posted by: Soothsayer at November 30, 2016 06:11 PM (LWYzG)

No. It's safe. David Duchovny and Wesley Snipes.

Posted by: ThePrimordialOrderedPair at November 30, 2016 06:12 PM (zc3Db)

173 Well, shit, if we're handing out property tax breaks, then I'd like one too.

My property taxes are off the fucking charts.

Maybe your problem is nobody really wants you to stay.

Posted by: Cicero (@cicero) at November 30, 2016 06:12 PM (8ZskC)

174 168
Property taxes are a state issue.

I thought they were more local than that.
i.e. city or county
Posted by: Bertram Cabot, Jr. at November 30, 2016 06:12 PM (IqV8l)

where I live, we get local property taxes. And then local school taxes. And then state school taxes. and lastly but not leastly, state property taxes.

Posted by: Harry Paratestes at November 30, 2016 06:13 PM (cJrMO)

175 Its hard to move a company, so you typically don't have to offer it.

Tell that to Toyota USA leaving Kali for Frisco, Texas. LOL.

------------

And guess what. They got a tax abatement.

Those currently residing in Frisco do not.

Posted by: SH at November 30, 2016 06:13 PM (gmeXX)

176
I always thought it was for a palate cleanser if the hot sauce on the wings was getting to be a big much.

My love for putting hot sauce on everything began with c-rats

Posted by: Deplorable Male Logic at November 30, 2016 06:13 PM (lKyWE)

177 Maybe your problem is nobody really wants you to stay.
Posted by: Cicero (@cicero) at November 30, 2016 06:12 PM (8ZskC)

Good point. Hadn't considered that...

...shit.

Posted by: Harry Paratestes at November 30, 2016 06:13 PM (cJrMO)

178 Because of steps taken to reduce SO2 and SO3 emissions from coal burning.

Posted by: Deplorable Jay Guevara at November 30, 2016 06:11 PM (SRKgf)

Which makes the destruction of our coal industry even more criminal.

It's CLEAN power!

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at November 30, 2016 06:14 PM (42Mgr)

179
What do I win?

You earn a "well done" from me and the satisfaction from possessing useful knowledge.

Posted by: Soothsayer at November 30, 2016 06:14 PM (LWYzG)

180 12 I.... have mixed feelings about this kind of stuff, TBH.

But I mean, it's the world we live in. Carroting and Sticking the private sector to do what we want.

Posted by: Harry Paratestes

Agreed, but the Obama tax rates, Obamacare and the never-ending number of regulations are sticks that Trump is promising to remove. I think that's the right way to look at it.

Being the poster child for companies moving out of the U.S. is something someone relying on heavily on federal contracts should consider.

Posted by: Dirks Strewn at November 30, 2016 06:14 PM (iWW0H)

181 Carrot sticks - not just for nibbling on.

Posted by: Miley, Duchess of the DSR at November 30, 2016 06:14 PM (tHwdc)

182 >>>Property taxes are a state issue.

I thought they were more local than that.
i.e. city or county

Posted by: Bertram Cabot, Jr. at November 30, 2016 06:12 PM (IqV8l)

Ultimately, but they reside within the state powers, not the federal government. I don't know if the original comment was about the feds doing something about property taxes but the snippet I saw made it sound that way.

Posted by: ThePrimordialOrderedPair at November 30, 2016 06:14 PM (zc3Db)

183 We give the carrot to the welfare parasites and beat the people who pay taxes with more taxes. We're the workers paradise.

Posted by: Stupid Braindead CA Voters at November 30, 2016 06:14 PM (4kbi9)

184 165 Today's phrase is...

Force majeure.

Class, who wants to explain what it means?
Posted by: Soothsayer at November 30, 2016 06:09 PM (LWYzG)

----

Does it involve forcing people to twirl batons to music?

Posted by: Monty Pythons flying circus at November 30, 2016 06:14 PM (aAlFX)

185 >>Carrot sticks - not just for nibbling on.

Pro Tip : A Gerbil will go anywhere to nibble on a carrot stick.
Any.
Where.

Posted by: Richard Gere at November 30, 2016 06:15 PM (MQZBa)

186 You earn a "well done" from me and the satisfaction from possessing useful knowledge.
Posted by: Soothsayer at November 30, 2016 06:14 PM (LWYzG)

Well, okay.

I'll take it!

See, being in law school IS useful for real world shit!

Posted by: Harry Paratestes at November 30, 2016 06:15 PM (cJrMO)

187 >>>Pence, Trump Used Carrots and Possible Stick

Sounds like information revealed by the XHamster leak

Posted by: wooga at November 30, 2016 06:15 PM (4dhU8)

188 If you employ people here, get the hell out.

Posted by: Stupid Braindead CA Voters at November 30, 2016 06:15 PM (4kbi9)

189 Tax breaks are the carrots. Carrot chili is the stick.

Posted by: josephistan at November 30, 2016 06:15 PM (7qAYi)

190 ...Its the difference between a Private Contract.... and equal application under the (TAX) Law.
Posted by: Don Q. at November 30, 2016 06:12 PM (qf6WZ)

Well, yes, that's true, but it doesn't work that way and never has. State and local governments want the credit for bringing jobs to their jurisdiction, but they can't give every company the same sweet deal without running out of money.

Posted by: Ace's liver at November 30, 2016 06:15 PM (Xuv2G)

191 Hillary will never eat carrots in the White House.

Posted by: Roy at November 30, 2016 06:15 PM (fWLrt)

192 I.... have mixed feelings about this kind of stuff, TBH.

--------------

I don't, I hate it.

Posted by: SH at November 30, 2016 06:15 PM (gmeXX)

193 'What do I win? '

A baby's arm holding a carrot.

Posted by: Carrot Man at November 30, 2016 06:16 PM (BO/km)

194 188 If you employ people here, get the hell out.
Posted by: Stupid Braindead CA Voters at November 30, 2016 06:15 PM (4kbi9)

You know, I thought I'd achieved inner peace in dealing with you people, but the grocery bag thing has me seeing red.

Posted by: Ace's liver at November 30, 2016 06:16 PM (Xuv2G)

195 175 Its hard to move a company, so you typically don't have to offer it.

Tell that to Toyota USA leaving Kali for Frisco, Texas. LOL.

------------

And guess what. They got a tax abatement.

Those currently residing in Frisco do not.
Posted by: SH at November 30, 2016 06:13 PM (gmeXX)

ATT had a big call center here in my little town in the Central Valley CA.... employed over 1000 people...

Even though the cost of living is low here compared to the rest of Calif, and their plant costs were already paid for... they moved the Call center to Los Angeles...

Never could get a rational reason out of them for doing it... smells of Politics...

Posted by: Don Q. at November 30, 2016 06:16 PM (qf6WZ)

196 The only reason Hillary lost is not enough illegal aliens voted in those swing states.

Posted by: Stupid Braindead CA Voters at November 30, 2016 06:16 PM (4kbi9)

197 Being the poster child for companies moving out of the U.S. is something someone relying on heavily on federal contracts should consider.

Maybe now Jeff Immelt will promote GE by saving American jobs instead of licking Obama's balls.

Posted by: Cicero (@cicero) at November 30, 2016 06:17 PM (8ZskC)

198 Hey Carrier, I have a carrot for you. It's about three feet long and is wrapped in razor wire. The more you get hit with it, the less it hurts.

Posted by: President-Elect Trump at November 30, 2016 06:17 PM (iWW0H)

199 I don't, I hate it.
Posted by: SH at November 30, 2016 06:15 PM (gmeXX)

Yeah. But like I said -- unfortunately thats the way of the world now.

I'm really starting to feel like we need to play by the left's rules. They run everything, we're just being derps by trying to do "the right thing" and being ideologically... ideological.

Maybe, just maybe, the left will say "hey wait a minute..." and cut back on their own shit if we do it too.

But yeah, I really wish we could stop government at all levels from this kind of cronyist bullshit.

I don't see that happening though.

Posted by: Harry Paratestes at November 30, 2016 06:17 PM (cJrMO)

200 Well, yes, that's true, but it doesn't work that way and never has. State and local governments want the credit for bringing jobs to their jurisdiction, but they can't give every company the same sweet deal without running out of money.

--------------

Ah, yes, you can revolt from the Crown, but the Crown always comes backs to sell its licenses.

One might argue that if you abandoned income and property taxes and only had sales taxes that the increased economic output would more than offset the taxes you eliminated.

Posted by: SH at November 30, 2016 06:18 PM (gmeXX)

201 So the ozone depletion hypothesis was, on its face, a lot more plausible than that of AGW.

Posted by: Deplorable Jay Guevara at November 30, 2016 06:09 PM (SRKgf)

NASA used to post the size of the ozone hole on their web site until people started noticing that it had not changed at all since the Freon ban.

Posted by: Vic We Have No Party at November 30, 2016 06:18 PM (mpXpK)

202 Maybe now Jeff Immelt will promote GE by saving American jobs instead of licking Obama's balls.
Posted by: Cicero (@cicero) at November 30, 2016 06:17 PM (8ZskC)

Why not both?

Posted by: Beyonce at November 30, 2016 06:18 PM (mtGE/)

203 Well, yes, that's true, but it doesn't work that way and never has. State and local governments want the credit for bringing jobs to their jurisdiction, but they can't give every company the same sweet deal without running out of money.
Posted by: Ace's liver at November 30, 2016 06:15 PM (Xuv2G)

And if I was a local company, who was NOT getting said Tax break... I'd sue the shit out of the Government...

Posted by: Don Q. at November 30, 2016 06:18 PM (qf6WZ)

204 States offering tax abatements to companies, these days, is a pretty funny situation ... since by Kelo the state can then turn around in a year and steal the property by eminent domain to give it to someone else who is willing to pay the taxes.

Our SCOTASS is comprised of a bunch of friggin geniuses, they are ...

Posted by: ThePrimordialOrderedPair at November 30, 2016 06:18 PM (zc3Db)

205 Which makes the destruction of our coal industry even more criminal.

It's CLEAN power!

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at November 30, 2016 06:14 PM (42Mgr)

Actually, fly ash from coal burning is pretty nasty stuff. Even if low sulfur coal is burnt, coal inevitably has all sorts of heavy metals in it, which go up the chimney too, and come down everywhere downwind. Coal-fired plants aren't as bad as smelters, but they pose many of the same problems.

Now natural gas IS clean.

Posted by: Deplorable Jay Guevara at November 30, 2016 06:18 PM (SRKgf)

206 >>I have often wondered why States offer huge subsidies and tax breaks for a company t locate in their State but seldom offer existing companies similar breaks.

Romney actually did a bit of this in MA. MA was bleeding jobs when he took over. Fidelity, which is based in Boston, was threatening to move a large number of jobs to NH. He gave them, and some other companies, tax breaks to stay. Bleeding stopped and jobs started coming in.

Having business people in government is a good thing.

Posted by: JackStraw at November 30, 2016 06:19 PM (/tuJf)

207 Yeah. But like I said -- unfortunately thats the way of the world now.

----------

Now? That's how the world has always worked. I thought the US was established to try to create something different.

Posted by: SH at November 30, 2016 06:19 PM (gmeXX)

208 I think it's pretty funny that Trump is doing more for American workers before he takes office than Obama did in his whole miserable shitpile of a presidency.

Posted by: Cicero (@cicero) at November 30, 2016 06:19 PM (8ZskC)

209 At least in California, the cow fart business will be a growth business. Mufflers on all cattle, buy into it now, its a growth industry.

Posted by: Colin at November 30, 2016 06:20 PM (mIgf1)

210 And if I was a local company, who was NOT getting said Tax break... I'd sue the shit out of the Government...

------------

The 14th A doesn't guaranty equality, but it does mean marriage can be redefined.

Posted by: SH at November 30, 2016 06:20 PM (gmeXX)

211 One might argue that if you abandoned income and property taxes and only had sales taxes that the increased economic output would more than offset the taxes you eliminated.
Posted by: SH at November 30, 2016 06:18 PM (gmeXX)

One might argue that.

But unfortunately at our currently ridiculous expenditure rate, that would mean a metric fuckton level of sales tax. Probably like 50% (why yes, I did pull that out my ass.)

Even at only 20-25% though, it would be high enough to create a massive grey / black market of people avoiding paying the tax.

A market that already exists, by the way. I live in a no sales tax state -- we get out of staters by the assload coming up here to buy shit all the time. Which is great for us.

but if people are willing to go to that kind of effort to save the 6% tax rate, imagine what they'd do at 26%.

Posted by: Harry Paratestes at November 30, 2016 06:20 PM (cJrMO)

212 203 Well, yes, that's true, but it doesn't work that way and never has. State and local governments want the credit for bringing jobs to their jurisdiction, but they can't give every company the same sweet deal without running out of money.
Posted by: Ace's liver at November 30, 2016 06:15 PM (Xuv2G)

And if I was a local company, who was NOT getting said Tax break... I'd sue the shit out of the Government...

Posted by: Don Q. at November 30, 2016 06:18 PM (qf6WZ)

You might suddenly find your place isn't up to code. They say "you can't fight city hall" for a reason.

Posted by: Ace's liver at November 30, 2016 06:20 PM (Xuv2G)

213 37 What the hell is "Carrier"? A company? Never heard of it. What do they make or do?
Posted by: zombie at November 30, 2016 05:48 PM (jBuUi)

Well, Willis Carrier invented air conditioning. Which makes him as great a hero as John Moses Browning.

Posted by: rickl - THE MEDIA IS LYING TO YOU at November 30, 2016 06:21 PM (sdi6R)

214 199 I don't, I hate it.
Posted by: SH at November 30, 2016 06:15 PM (gmeXX)

Yeah. But like I said -- unfortunately thats the way of the world now.

I'm really starting to feel like we need to play by the left's rules. They run everything, we're just being derps by trying to do "the right thing" and being ideologically... ideological.

Maybe, just maybe, the left will say "hey wait a minute..." and cut back on their own shit if we do it too.

But yeah, I really wish we could stop government at all levels from this kind of cronyist bullshit.

I don't see that happening though.
Posted by: Harry Paratestes at November 30, 2016 06:17 PM (cJrMO)

Maybe we use their tactics against them now, then when things get to where we want - good jobs for Americans in this case - we stop with the government picking & choosing, rewarding & punishing. Wishful thinking, I know.

Posted by: josephistan at November 30, 2016 06:21 PM (7qAYi)

215
President Elect Trump hasn't even been sworn in yet.....the media is in full retard mode since 11/8/16....(yeah I know...media has been retarded since 1992...or before...) all anti Trump all the time.

It's gonna be an interesting next four years....we will have to see if Trump and his team can challenge the narrative all day every day.

Posted by: Some Guy in Wisconsin who's been to Bennetts Smut and eggs at November 30, 2016 06:21 PM (NmFOj)

216 "Yeah, I remember learning about that in elementary school. All the buildings were going to be destroyed, all the drinking water was going to be fucked, and we were all going to die a horrible death due to acid rain."

How old am I? Old enough to remember when "nuclear winter" was the apocalyptic threat du jour.

::: Count Floyd voice :::

"Oooh, scary stuff, huh kids?"

Posted by: torquewrench at November 30, 2016 06:21 PM (noWW6)

217 Posted by: Deplorable Jay Guevara at November 30, 2016 06:18 PM (SRKgf)

My impression of a typical modern coal burning plant was that emissions are epidemiologically safe.

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at November 30, 2016 06:22 PM (42Mgr)

218 At least in California, the cow fart business will be a growth business. Mufflers on all cattle, buy into it now, its a growth industry.

I'm gonna sneak in by going long on muffler bearings!

Posted by: rickb223 at November 30, 2016 06:22 PM (+/zXg)

219 Maybe, just maybe, the left will say "hey wait a minute..." and cut back on their own shit if we do it too.

There's no evidence that has ever happened. The only thing they'll think is "How do we get back in power so we make these decisions?"

Posted by: Ace's liver at November 30, 2016 06:22 PM (Xuv2G)

220 Well, its that time Morons. BBT

Posted by: Vic We Have No Party at November 30, 2016 06:22 PM (mpXpK)

221 Maybe we use their tactics against them now,

------------

Our side has been using these tactics equally as long as their side.

Posted by: SH at November 30, 2016 06:22 PM (gmeXX)

222 One might argue that if you abandoned income and property taxes and only had sales taxes that the increased economic output would more than offset the taxes you eliminated.
Posted by: SH at November 30, 2016 06:18 PM (gmeXX)

Get rid of business tax (which is part of the income tax) and you'd really see the economy take off...

Why? Domestic production would only be taxed at the point of sale... Imports would be paying whatever Tax the country of origin had, PLUS the tax at the point of sale...

Our exports would not be taxed HERE at all...

Government created competitive advantage...

Posted by: Don Q. at November 30, 2016 06:23 PM (qf6WZ)

223 Just saw a commercial for "Miss Sloane" where Robert DeNiro plays an evil gun lobbyist. Bless their hearts, they'll just never understand.

#ThatsWhyYouGotTrump.

Posted by: josephistan at November 30, 2016 06:23 PM (7qAYi)

224 Well, Willis Carrier invented air conditioning. Which makes him as great a hero as John Moses Browning.
Posted by: rickl - THE MEDIA IS LYING TO YOU at November 30, 2016 06:21 PM (sdi6R)

Whoa, Whoa, Whoa! Let's not get crazy here.

Posted by: Aetius451AD at November 30, 2016 06:23 PM (92kX2)

225 Maybe we use their tactics against them now, then when things get to where we want - good jobs for Americans in this case - we stop with the government picking & choosing, rewarding & punishing. Wishful thinking, I know.
Posted by: josephistan at November 30, 2016 06:21 PM (7qAYi)

Yeah, I don't see that happening either.

Posted by: Harry Paratestes at November 30, 2016 06:23 PM (cJrMO)

226 It's gonna be an interesting next four years....we will have to see if Trump and his team can challenge the narrative all day every day.

All he has to do is mention flag burning again. LOL

Posted by: rickb223 at November 30, 2016 06:23 PM (+/zXg)

227
A lot more jobs could be created and kept if the US dropped and flattened individual and corporate taxes. And the govt likely wouldn't see a penny less.

But we don't live in dreamworld, so its all just for talk.

Posted by: Guy Mohawk at November 30, 2016 06:24 PM (ODxAs)

228 Get rid of business tax (which is part of the income tax) and you'd really see the economy take off...

------------

The SH tax policy would be awesome.

Posted by: SH at November 30, 2016 06:24 PM (gmeXX)

229 You might suddenly find your place isn't up to code. They say "you can't fight city hall" for a reason.
Posted by: Ace's liver at November 30, 2016 06:20 PM (Xuv2G)

Really?

Posted by: Minutemen, 1776 at November 30, 2016 06:24 PM (qf6WZ)

230 Well, Willis Carrier invented air conditioning. Which makes him as great a hero as John Moses Browning.

Hence the historic Thomas Edison quote, "whatchoo talkin' 'bout, Willis!"

Posted by: Cicero (@cicero) at November 30, 2016 06:24 PM (8ZskC)

231 A lot more jobs could be created and kept if the US dropped and flattened individual and corporate taxes. And the govt likely wouldn't see a penny less.

But we don't live in dreamworld, so its all just for talk.

------------

Its amazing how saving 1,000 jobs has created such headlines.

Posted by: SH at November 30, 2016 06:25 PM (gmeXX)

232 Honestly the tactic we need is prosecuting the leftist abusers. Like Lois Lerner.

Jeff Sessions, I am praying you are fury unleashed.

Posted by: Deplorable votermom @vm on Gab at November 30, 2016 06:25 PM (Om16U)

233 37 What the hell is "Carrier"? A company? Never heard of it. What do they make or do?
Posted by: zombie at November 30, 2016 05:48 PM (jBuUi)

----

They invented a little thing call air conditioning.

Posted by: Make America Great Again at November 30, 2016 06:25 PM (BS8yt)

234 NASA used to post the size of the ozone hole on their web site until people started noticing that it had not changed at all since the Freon ban.

Posted by: Vic We Have No Party at November 30, 2016 06:18 PM (mpXpK)

But that doesn't necessarily vitiate the point. If the chlorine atoms are still in the upper atmosphere, and therefore still catalyzing the disproportionation of ozone, you would expect the ozone hole to remain constant after the chlorofluorocarbon ban. The ban would only prevent expansion of the ozone hole, but not necessarily decrease it.

I'm not saying that this is necessarily the case, but rather that the observations are not dispositive either way.

As happens so often in research, one result tells you something definitive, the other is ambiguous. Here the only way to test the hypothesis definitively would be to ban chlorofluorocarbons, and then if the ozone hole diminished, resume using CFCs and see if the ozone hole grew again.

Posted by: Deplorable Jay Guevara at November 30, 2016 06:25 PM (SRKgf)

235 I said here before, I watched some videos from Ireland and they are convinced that Trump will bring all the Money that US Corperations have in Irish banks back to the US and that has them shit scared.

Posted by: Patrick From Ohio at November 30, 2016 06:26 PM (dKiJG)

236 http://tinyurl.com/hgf72mo

White House mocks Trump's Carrier deal.

The funny thing is, you know what happened. Obama saw Trump getting good press for saving jobs (admittedly a small one, but a definite start) and could not for the life of himself just say "Good job, there's a lot more work to be done."

I would think that some of the 1000 people whose jobs are staying in the US might think it was important and significant.

Posted by: Aetius451AD at November 30, 2016 06:26 PM (92kX2)

237 Get rid of business tax (which is part of the income tax) and you'd really see the economy take off...

Why? Domestic production would only be taxed at the point of sale... Imports would be paying whatever Tax the country of origin had, PLUS the tax at the point of sale...

I'm leery of putting all our tax eggs in one basket like that. If you tax share is spread over five different kinds of taxes it doesn't make sense to cheat on one of them, since there's limited upside and a pretty large downside.

But if everything's collected at point-of-sale... I played a lot of poker with small business owners, and from what I can tell pretty much everyone had two sets of books. We don't need to tilt the incentives even farther in that direction.

Posted by: Ace's liver at November 30, 2016 06:27 PM (Xuv2G)

238 I said here before, I watched some videos from Ireland and they are convinced that Trump will bring all the Money that US Corperations have in Irish banks back to the US and that has them shit scared.

It's good that others are scared. Especially the frikkin' Irish.

Posted by: Cicero (@cicero) at November 30, 2016 06:27 PM (8ZskC)

239 229 You might suddenly find your place isn't up to code. They say "you can't fight city hall" for a reason.
Posted by: Ace's liver at November 30, 2016 06:20 PM (Xuv2G)

Really?
Posted by: Minutemen, 1776 at November 30, 2016 06:24 PM (qf6WZ)

Rebelling against a king is one thing, but I bet all those guys were current on their local taxes.

Posted by: Ace's liver at November 30, 2016 06:28 PM (Xuv2G)

240 >>>White House mocks Trump's Carrier deal.

++++

Ofuckstick is a small man. A very small man.

Posted by: washrivergal at November 30, 2016 06:28 PM (CFc5L)

241 Irish? It's them Poles we have to watch out for.

Posted by: Deplorable votermom @vm on Gab at November 30, 2016 06:29 PM (Om16U)

242 Honestly the tactic we need is prosecuting the leftist abusers. Like Lois Lerner.

Posted by: Deplorable votermom @vm on Gab at November 30, 2016 06:25 PM (Om16U)

Exactly. Simply joining the scam just removes the perception of moral stain from the abusers.

Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of the Sith at November 30, 2016 06:29 PM (wB8Tg)

243 But if everything's collected at point-of-sale... I played a lot of poker with small business owners, and from what I can tell pretty much everyone had two sets of books. We don't need to tilt the incentives even farther in that direction.

---------------

In my experience, most business owners are honest with their taxes. But yes, make the rate too high and you incentize people to skirt around it. Make the rate reasonable and the incentive to skirt drops significantly.

Posted by: SH at November 30, 2016 06:29 PM (gmeXX)

244 OT- Noshave November is problimatic. My ass. When facial hair is problematic or misogynistic you can kiss my white male ass. Then try to shave my majestic beard and my sharply waxed stach.

Posted by: USNtakim at November 30, 2016 06:29 PM (hMqvx)

245 Nood

Posted by: rickb223 at November 30, 2016 06:29 PM (+/zXg)

246 First Ace's penis gets it's own post, now his liver is posting. It's getting strange in here.

Posted by: Aetius451AD at November 30, 2016 06:29 PM (92kX2)

247
Just saw a commercial for "Miss Sloane" where Robert DeNiro plays an evil gun lobbyist. Bless their hearts, they'll just never understand.

Is Miss Sloane a mom who demands action?

Posted by: Bertram Cabot, Jr. at November 30, 2016 06:29 PM (IqV8l)

248 It takes a long time for the chlorine to get up into the stratosphere. IIRC, the time constant is 20 years. That is, it takes about 20 years for CFCs released at the surface to make it up to the stratosphere.

There are processes that remove that chlorine up there, but they are slow. So stopping releasing them at the surface will take a while. It will be about 50 years, IIRC.

Posted by: publius (not Breitbart publius) at November 30, 2016 06:30 PM (DW+jj)

249 First Ace's penis gets it's own post, now his liver is posting. It's getting strange in here.

--------------

Both have probably been over abused.

Posted by: SH at November 30, 2016 06:30 PM (gmeXX)

250 Good thing there's a nood, I was smelling the onset of VATS disease in this conversation.

Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of the Sith at November 30, 2016 06:30 PM (wB8Tg)

251 nood nood

Posted by: Harry Paratestes at November 30, 2016 06:30 PM (cJrMO)

252 I've been posting since I was injured in the Great Alcohol Flood of 2003.

Posted by: Ace's liver at November 30, 2016 06:30 PM (Xuv2G)

253 ACE you should post the video of them announcing that they are sending the jobs to Mexico.

The left hates this because they make Air Conditioners, fuck them and Trump violated some law because he's not President yet and should me arrested, Fuck you too.

Posted by: Patrick From Ohio at November 30, 2016 06:31 PM (dKiJG)

254 250 Good thing there's a nood, I was smelling the onset of VATS disease in this conversation.
Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of the Sith at November 30, 2016 06:30 PM (wB8Tg)

Vault-Tec Assisted Targeting System?

Posted by: Aetius451AD at November 30, 2016 06:32 PM (92kX2)

255 Obama actually did deliver on his promise to Evansville.

So

Trump better get this one right or it's the end of the honeymoon.

Posted by: Bill Wynn at November 30, 2016 06:32 PM (UlJ8y)

256 Just saw a commercial for "Miss Sloane" where Robert DeNiro plays an
evil gun lobbyist. Bless their hearts, they'll just never understand.

Yeah, I saw that. Looks like more box office gold.

Posted by: tu3031 at November 30, 2016 06:33 PM (qJhUV)

257 I have often wondered why States offer huge subsidies and tax breaks for a company t locate in their State but seldom offer existing companies similar breaks.

But what I would really prefer is to have the corporate tax structure reduced substantially for ALL companies and not have to compete with other States in the gift department.

The US currently has some of the highest corporate taxes in the world and the Democrats are responsible for that.
Posted by: Vic We Have No Party at November 30, 2016 05:43 PM (mpXpK)

They do if the company is big enough. Toledo is always offering Jeep incentives to stay.

I agree though, I wish they would outlaw the whole incentive concept to get companies to relocate. It should be everyone lives with the same tax structure. If it makes your state uncompetitive then change it for everyone.

Posted by: KD Willamgirl at November 30, 2016 06:35 PM (J70i0)

258 37 What the hell is "Carrier"? A company? Never heard of it. What do they make or do?
Posted by: zombie at November 30, 2016 05:48 PM (jBuUi)

Well, Willis Carrier invented air conditioning. Which makes him as great a hero as John Moses Browning.

Posted by: rickl - THE MEDIA IS LYING TO YOU at November 30, 2016 06:21 PM (sdi6R)

Carrier's parent company is a big Pentagram/DOD contractor, I heard.

Posted by: gNewt at November 30, 2016 06:36 PM (4ugnK)

259 248 It takes a long time for the chlorine to get up into the stratosphere. IIRC, the time constant is 20 years. That is, it takes about 20 years for CFCs released at the surface to make it up to the stratosphere.
There are processes that remove that chlorine up there, but they are slow. So stopping releasing them at the surface will take a while. It will be about 50 years, IIRC.
Posted by: publius (not Breitbart publius) at November 30, 2016 06:30 PM (DW+jj)

Thank you. I sort of thought that that was the case, but I didn't know, and therefore addressed the situation conditionally.

Posted by: Deplorable Jay Guevara at November 30, 2016 06:37 PM (SRKgf)

260 Per WZ, Scott Brown, Pete Hegseth, and Sarah Palin (?!?) floated for VA secretary.

Hegseth seems to be the most qualified. On the other two names, what the heck?

Posted by: Aetius451AD at November 30, 2016 06:41 PM (92kX2)

261 Actually most state tax (and other) incentives are available to any company that makes a certain level of investment, even if your company currently resides in the state. Most hinge on hiring new workers.

Alabama used that to great effect over the past 20 years picking up Mercedes, Hyundai, Honda and many suppliers.

Posted by: Make America Great Again at November 30, 2016 06:44 PM (BS8yt)

262 216 "Yeah, I remember learning about that in elementary school. All the buildings were going to be destroyed, all the drinking water was going to be fucked, and we were all going to die a horrible death due to acid rain."

How old am I? Old enough to remember when "nuclear winter" was the apocalyptic threat du jour.

::: Count Floyd voice :::

"Oooh, scary stuff, huh kids?"
Posted by: torquewrench at November 30, 2016 06:21 PM (noWW6)

You forgot about the Population Bomb and Peak Oil.

Mary Tyler Moore did a whole episode on the Population Bomb.

Posted by: Patrick From Ohio at November 30, 2016 06:44 PM (dKiJG)

263 Posted by: torquewrench at November 30, 2016 06:05 PM (noWW6)

Nicely observed. I love that stuff.

Funnily enough, another thing Barack likes to say is "Reggie's always after me Lucky Charms!!!!!"

Posted by: Mega at November 30, 2016 06:45 PM (EdXI9)

264 How old am I? Old enough to remember when "nuclear winter" was the apocalyptic threat du jour.

::: Count Floyd voice :::

"Oooh, scary stuff, huh kids?"
Posted by: torquewrench at November 30, 2016 06:21 PM (noWW6)

You forgot about the Population Bomb and Peak Oil.

Mary Tyler Moore did a whole episode on the Population Bomb.
Posted by: Patrick From Ohio at November 30, 2016 06:44 PM (dKiJG)

Wasn't there an ice age threat in the 70's?

Posted by: Aetius451AD at November 30, 2016 06:46 PM (92kX2)

265 for another discussion on why "free trade doesn't work", this is an academic answering the general "free trade" positions in a debate forum, with some prof claiming Adam Smith is "settled science".

He posts one paragraph from the Adam Smith guy, then his response. Then several spaces to the next part of the prof position. (he should have used bold or something for his parts, but any way ...) It's a HuffPo link.

http://tinyurl.com/gvtw2dc

Posted by: illiniwek at November 30, 2016 06:46 PM (pS/eA)

266 There are processes that remove that chlorine up there, but they are slow. So stopping releasing them at the surface will take a while. It will be about 50 years, IIRC.

Posted by: publius (not Breitbart publius) at November 30, 2016 06:30 PM (DW+jj)

That wasn't really the point of the whole thing, though. The issue was that they had just started measuring the ozone and, all of a sudden, saw this hole. They had no idea if it belonged there. They had no idea what the history of the ozone layer was. They just assumed that the hole was new and that it was due to Man's influence.

It is still unknown whether that hole was natural or not. And it's been 40 years since they banned aerosols, already - with it having been more than that since aerosol use was seriously reduced.

Posted by: ThePrimordialOrderedPair at November 30, 2016 06:47 PM (zc3Db)

267 think it's pretty funny that Trump is doing more for American workers before he takes office than Obama did in his whole miserable shitpile of a presidency.

Posted by: Cicero (@cicero) at November 30, 2016 06:19 PM (8ZskC)

And yet his party claims to be for "the workers". Incredible.

Posted by: Mega at November 30, 2016 06:52 PM (EdXI9)

268 Willis Carrier invented air conditioning. The company that bears his name is owned by the conglomerate United Technologies. UTC is like GE except they're successful without suckling the Government teat or doing business with Iran.

Posted by: Regular joe at November 30, 2016 06:58 PM (ROIz5)

269 http://tinyurl.com/hgf72mo

White House mocks Trump's Carrier deal.

I didn't read it, but....

Really?

What exactly were THEY doing to keep those jobs here?

Posted by: Country Boy - Deplorable and proud of it at November 30, 2016 07:03 PM (6yuGL)

270 PoP,

The "hole" (very low concentration of ozone) is caused by polar stratospheric clouds (PSCs), ice clouds which develop over the poles. Stratospheric chlorine compounds are up there, and sunlight hitting those clouds causes all sorts of reactions that start releasing that chlorine into free Cl radicals, which then start catalyzing the destruction of ozone. These reactions have been observed directly. It's not conjecture, it's observed.

This is what causes the "hole". They actually observed the hole back the mid 70s, IIRC, but threw the data away because it was so low, they thought something was screwed up.

CFCs were invented around 1930, and when you look at CFC production rates, increasing every since, vs the time it takes for it to get up into the stratosphere, then the hole appearing in the mid-70s was right on schedule.

Posted by: publius (not Breitbart publius) at November 30, 2016 07:06 PM (DW+jj)

271 Lesson: We need more voters, not small government philosophers on twitter and big donors. We have plenty of those. Most of us also understand the need of both and moving things in the small government direction, and will do so with all our being, but we cannot win elections without voters.

The Democrats made the critical mistake of becoming a party of community organizers and big donors. Now is our chance to win lots of new voters who could care less about global warming, gun restrictions, transsexual bathrooms, abortion, etc.

It starts with making sure they have a good solid paying jobs. Moving the jobs to Mexico may sound "free market", but it is not. Mexico can be bribed to allow a company to do all sorts of things they would never be allowed to do, even under most American conservative free market governments!

We can never lower our standards to meet Mexico's standards, and we should never try to either. If we do will we be a 3rd world hell hole. Therefore a Tariff is needed to even out some things...

Posted by: William Eaton at November 30, 2016 07:35 PM (MuTTO)

272 This is what causes the "hole". They actually observed the hole back the mid 70s, IIRC, but threw the data away because it was so low, they thought something was screwed up.

That's exactly what I said. They didn't throw it away. They instituted the bulk of the CFC ban in 1978 - which was pretty friggin quick after having only seen the hole for the first time.

CFCs were invented around 1930, and when you look at CFC production rates, increasing every since, vs the time it takes for it to get up into the stratosphere, then the hole appearing in the mid-70s was right on schedule.

Posted by: publius (not Breitbart publius) at November 30, 2016 07:06 PM (DW+jj)

That is no sort of proof of anything. You should know that. They STILL have no idea if that hole is natural or not. They have no clue what the history of the ozone layer is.

Posted by: ThePrimordialOrderedPair at November 30, 2016 07:38 PM (zc3Db)

273 There is proof of everything. The reactions of ozone depletion are observed. Period. The ozone hole is not natural. Period.

The ozone hole wasn't really observed until the mid-80s. Which confirmed the anomalous low readings back in the '70s.

CFC production peaked in about 1980. It came down a bit, hovered around, the turned up again and reached another peak about 1990 or so, after which the Whatever Protocols kicked in and phased them out.

It takes a long time for surface released CFCs to clear out of the stratosphere. They are just now starting to fall. The ozone hole phenomenon will be completely gone in about 50 years.

The hypothesis that CFCs cause ozone depletion has been proved beyond any reasonable scientific debate. Period.

Posted by: publius (not Breitbart publius) at November 30, 2016 09:18 PM (DW+jj)

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