Is It Getting To Be About the Time When the #NeverTrumpers Should Go Radio Silent?

Previously there were possible real-world scenarios which justified the continuing anti-Trump position:

1. A dark horse white knight makes an 11th hour entry and runs third party.

This is now virtually impossible, and soon will be entirely impossible. By the way, the application to get on the ballot in Texas has already passed -- so, um, good luck with this one.

2. Trump would prove so toxic in the polls that it would cause the party to do whatever was necessary to install a new candidate, even at the expense of blowing up the party to do it.

I thought this one was more likely than the previous one. I had hopes for this one. I predicted that if Trump continued doing disastrously at the polls, the party would in fact react like a hive of bees killing and ejecting an intruder insect.

However, Trump is not doing too badly in polls lately. Now, sure, the usual caveats apply: Hillary hasn't gotten her own base-unification boost, it's early yet, Trump's problems are obvious except for all the problems we don't know about yet, etc.

However, the hopes that Trump would fare so poorly at the polls that it could be used to show the base We had no choice but to do this appear to be diminished.

Now, I don't like Trump. Should his numbers go down further -- or should some horrifying skeleton emerge from his gilded closets -- I'd support the Warrior Bees Attack and Eject the Interloper scenario.

But it appears unlikely at the moment. Not impossible, but unlikely.

So I have to ask: At this point, what is the point of the #NeverTrump impulse?

Do you guys actually want Hillary Clinton in office, as Ben Howe, possibly just being baiting and trollish, said a few weeks back?

You want more lies? More Benghazis? More jailed video makers?

More Transgendered Bathrooms and Co-Ed showers? More Title IX redefinitions? More Deal Colleague letters? More Social Rape Justice hoax prosecutions?

More executive power grabs? More lying to federal judges by Administration officials? More contempt by Attorneys General and Directors of the IRS?

More illegal orders to release terrorists and give Iran the bomb?

More millions of illegals amnestied?

Remember, in the Jose Ramos debate, Hillary Clinton vowed that not a single illegal alien would be deported, ever, except for those proven to have committed murder.

More foreign policy ineptitude? More rolling into Libya without a plan and announcing like a 15 year old boyman that "We came, we saw, we kicked some ass"?

More Lois Lerners? More weaponization of government?

More hidden secret email accounts? More giving national security secrets to the Chinese to keep Hillary's "yoga routines" out of the hands of the taxpayers?

More illegal executive actions to ban guns? The woman has vowed to overturn Heller, you know.

More liberal Justices? When I flipped to hardcore anti-Trump myself a few months back, it was due to Trump's horrifying poll numbers and the grim probability he'd lose and we'd get 3-5 liberal justices. Enough to seal the Republic's fate.

Well, flash forward two months, and Trump isn't doing too badly in the polls. He might even have a decent shot at winning. At yet the "Principled Conservatives" who ought to be the most concerned about gifting the Supreme Court to the liberals for the next sixty years are blowing the subject off like it's just a big lark.

Excuse me?

Please explain to me the continuing hardcore commitment to #NeverTrump.

Is it...

1. Disliking the fact that the Upper Middle College Educated Class controlled the party for decades, and made a sport of ignoring the Working Class, but now the Working Class has reasserted itself and taken over and the members of the displaced Upper Middle College Educated Class just can't stand not being in a poll position any longer?

2. Showing off to one's liberal comrades that one isn't One Of That Kind of Conservative? That is, Virtue Signalling?

3. Attempting to save one's professional reputation? I get this one myself -- someone asked me why I was so anti-Trump, and I said the man was so vulgar, stupid, and crass that he made it necessary to oppose him simply to preserve one's professional standing.

So I get that idea. I get that idea an awful lot.

But we happen to be talking about the Republic at this point.

One of two people will be president in January -- Hillary Rodham Clinton, a sociopath who was a corrupt politician even before she entered politics (remember Whitewater? Her $100,000 cattles future trading) or Donald Trump.

What is the fear, here? That Donald Trump might be nearly as bad as Hillary Clinton certainly will be?

Name one issue on which Hillary Clinton is superior to Trump. The most I ever here is "We don't know what Trump will do, he could be just as bad as Hillary."

Oh? He could be that bad?

Look, Drew asked a while ago: What makes obviously liberal-cultural-values Republicans actually Republicans, apart from habit?

Maybe it's time for the great re-sorting to begin. It's time for actual Democrats, who are most comfortable with Democrats, and feel the most affinity for Democrats, to make their party allegiance official and simply declare for Hillary Clinton and join the Democratic Party.

Because I cannot see any "conservative" continuing to say "Oh yeah, I want to expand Dear Colleague directives to college and put more men in kangaroo court trials for hoax rapes just to show those Trump people how little I think of their ilk."

Enough. Enough.

You don't have to get on Team Trump, and you don't have to love him. Trump did not suddenly become well-informed or virtuous simply because he won the nomination.

However, at the moment, he is the only plausible tool by which we can prevent President Hillary Clinton, and if that isn't enough to at least get you to bite your tongue or find some other interest (politics isn't especially interesting, you know; there are a thousand fields more interesting and rewarding), then you're not merely #NeverTrump, you're closer to #NeverReallyAConservative.

Believe me, if Trump tanks in the polls, or if some really terrible info comes out about him (which I think is fairly likely), I'll be the first guy explaining to the Trumpheads why we must pull the bathtub drain on Trump to save the Republic.

But we're not at that moment.

And yet all around me I see people who are far too over-proud of their Upper Middle Class Background willing to elect Hillary Clinton just to prove they graduated (or at least attended) college.

Even on a day when the IG reveals that Hillary Clinton is a criminal, the Never Trumpers continue to Never Trump.

They're living in a bubble world made of their own spite and ego.

Reality is what it is. It's not always pretty and it's never ideal.

But the choice is between Hillary Clinton -- a fucking psychopathic monster, liar, and caudilla-in-waiting -- and Donald Trump, a narcissistic buffoon.

Easy call.

Just put you ego to the side and remember this election isn't about your ego, it's about America and our shared future.

Posted by: Ace at 04:16 PM

Comments

(Jump to bottom of comments)

1 Words of wisdom... I feel the same way...

Posted by: donna at May 25, 2016 04:17 PM (O2RFr)

2 almost 1st!

Posted by: mallflower at May 25, 2016 04:18 PM (qSIlh)

3 Ace, emboldened. And embarrelled.

Also: Bill Kristol, Warrior Bee!

Posted by: tsj017 at May 25, 2016 04:18 PM (4YUWF)

4 Common sense.

Posted by: exhelodrvr at May 25, 2016 04:19 PM (Rug2j)

5 I'm used to voting for the Least Worst candidate. It's part of the democratic process.

Posted by: ArthurK at May 25, 2016 04:20 PM (h53OH)

6 Yeah.. I don't like it.. but we're stuck with Trump..

I'll vote for him.. I may have to buy a jumbo pack of clothespins for my nose while dooing so.. but, yeah I'll vote for him.

I still think he loses to Shrillary though... barring interference from the FBI.

It woulda been more fun to have Trump face-off against Bernie though.. What a fucking clown show this year has been.

Posted by: Chi-Town Jerry at May 25, 2016 04:20 PM (so+oy)

7 someone at the federalist the other day wrote that allowing Hillery to further wreck the country for another four years will give the conservatives a really strong hand in 2020.

I don't know if it's delusion or madness but both words come pretty close.

Posted by: mallflower at May 25, 2016 04:20 PM (qSIlh)

8 It'd be worthwhile to ask the nevertrumpers what they would be saying right now had Jeb! won the nomination.

If they're honest they will admit they'd be telling conservatives to just suck it up and vote for Jeb! because we have no choice.

Again, *if* they're honest.

Posted by: weft cut-loop at May 25, 2016 04:21 PM (p2X2f)

9 #hillaryhumpers. Yeah, visualize that bitchez

Posted by: CSMBigBird at May 25, 2016 04:21 PM (jsWA8)

10 Fernandez, over at PJMedia, has it figured out. He doesn't have an answer, he doesn't predict the future, but he has it figured out.

"Half The Puzzle"

Posted by: Glorious Ungent at May 25, 2016 04:21 PM (kBd14)

11 Brevity, thou art Ace.

Posted by: garrett at May 25, 2016 04:22 PM (NvC7m)

12 "We are the Knights who say #NeverTrump!"

Already covered that.

Posted by: *Mikey NTH - Lighter Fluid, Charcoal, and Othe Car-Be-Cue Supplies at the Outrage Outlet at May 25, 2016 04:23 PM (hLRSq)

13 Brilliant post. I agree with everything you said, and I'm not trying to kiss your ass.

I don't love Trump either, but I loathe Hillary damned near as much as I do Obama.

And this:

2. Showing off to one's liberal comrades that one isn't One Of That Kind of Conservative? That is, Virtue Signalling?

Sounds exactly like "Republican Conservative" Joe F*cking Scarborough, sitting around the table of Morning Joe with his Manhattan liberal chums.

Posted by: Jane D'oh at May 25, 2016 04:23 PM (1ZOkK)

14 Repub pres with Repub Congress can act at will.
Dem pres with Repub Congress will be thwarted at every turn.

If you think Trump and Clinton have the same policies, you'd always want the Dem in that case if you knew you'd have a Repub Congress and you'd want to try again in 4 years.

Now, if Trump picks a libertarian Repub who never supported him in this race, I'll start to think he's serious about abandoning his previous liberalism. Til then, it's just all talk and empty promises.

Posted by: KK at May 25, 2016 04:23 PM (5WKRz)

15 By the way do you get some sort of prize by saying 1st?

Posted by: donna at May 25, 2016 04:23 PM (O2RFr)

16 It seems like a shift is taking place with some anti-Trump pundits. Even Ben Shapiro is saying he could vote for Trump. I disagree with Ace on this point though: 'One of two people will be president in January'.

After today's revelations, it is more likely (not probably, just more likely) she will be forced to step down as the nominee, in which case Biden or Bernie swoops in.

Posted by: bathtubby at May 25, 2016 04:23 PM (NQeWt)

17 It gets me that o one ever talks about why the personal serve. Pay for Play, Defeat FOIA requests, ect..

Posted by: CSMBigBird at May 25, 2016 04:23 PM (jsWA8)

18
It is an easy call. It's one I loathe having to make but we have to take the crapshoot with Trump.

At least we know he's going to start to go after real issues like Whitewater and hopefully it leads to the Obama/Clinton combined record as well as Liberal/Leftism.

Meh. If it takes semen stains and rape-rape of Billy the Perv to drag Trump into the Oval Office, so be it. But it would be nice if, since Trump has the attention of the MFM, to use that attention to educate the LIV crowd about who is at fault for their misery.

Swallow hard. Pull the lever for Mr. YUUUGE.

Gevalt.

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at May 25, 2016 04:24 PM (p4UlV)

19 "We are the Knights who say #NeverTrump!"

Nee! Bring Me a shrubbery...

Posted by: donna at May 25, 2016 04:24 PM (O2RFr)

20 1) Trump is a con man. Don't trust him, won't ever trust him.

2) I've come to the belated (in my case) recognition that the shouty, false-binary yelling mode of conservative "argument" is more or less how we got to where we are now, and I'm not going to fall for it any more.

I'm not going to vote for Trump, and I'm not going to vote for Hillary. Whether I vote, and who for, will be determined once November gets closer. I oscillate day by day as to whether Trump or Hillary would make the worst president but I can't in good conscience support either.

Posted by: SparcVark at May 25, 2016 04:24 PM (nKOXj)

21 >>Name one issue on which Hillary Clinton is superior to Trump. The most I ever here is "We don't know what Trump will do, he could be just as bad as Hillary."

THIS

I am for anyone who will stop Hillary.

Posted by: Lizzy at May 25, 2016 04:24 PM (NOIQH)

22 NR boxed themselves into a corner (npi) with their petulant "Contra Trump" issue and now they're honor-bound to make themselves seem even smaller.

Posted by: Caliban at May 25, 2016 04:24 PM (DrC22)

23 We have to abandon the Free Market to save the Free Market!

Posted by: Governments Greatest Hits at May 25, 2016 04:24 PM (NvC7m)

24 Is it safe to come back to the blog now??

Posted by: Hold The Fucking Door at May 25, 2016 04:25 PM (8l+DV)

25
I think this post is one to save at least until Election Day.

G-d, Hilary winning would be the bitter end.

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at May 25, 2016 04:25 PM (p4UlV)

26 Long read, be back in a while.

Posted by: Vic We Have No Party at May 25, 2016 04:25 PM (vvmPQ)

27 @20: Go the the Free Beacon's Hillary Cackle Button and click it until you understand the right choice. Because if she wins, that sound will be *everywhere*.

Posted by: Ian S. at May 25, 2016 04:25 PM (KUTP5)

28 >>A dark horse white knight >>

Mix me up a candidate

Posted by: Barry Obama at May 25, 2016 04:25 PM (DrC22)

29
However, at the moment, he is the only plausible tool by which we can prevent President Hillary Clinton, and if that isn't enough to at least get you to bite your tongue or find some other interest (politics isn't especially interesting, you know; there are a thousand fields more interesting and rewarding), then you're not merely #NeverTrump, you're closer to #NeverReallyAConservative.
===========================================

I'm not sure I understand that very last part. Are you saying that if you stand outside this particular race, you're a #NeverReallyConservative?

Posted by: grammie winger at May 25, 2016 04:26 PM (dFi94)

30 kinda wish the mouth breathers on Twitter sperging about Trump shitting on the GOP would realize that this helps him with the middle

Posted by: the dude at May 25, 2016 04:26 PM (SyKbw)

31 Yay. Ace got to Acceptance.

Posted by: joe, living dangerously at May 25, 2016 04:26 PM (KUaJL)

32 20 . I oscillate day by day as to whether Trump or Hillary would make the worst president but I can't in good conscience support either.

Posted by: SparcVark at May 25, 2016 04:24 PM (nKOXj)

You neither read, nor comprehended the post.

QED.

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at May 25, 2016 04:26 PM (p4UlV)

33 I thought this one was more likely than the previous one.

I thought so too, but not because of the polls. Because the RNCe hates him.

Posted by: Vic We Have No Party at May 25, 2016 04:26 PM (vvmPQ)

34 I'll give Scarborough and Mika this much credit...from the very beginning, they were among the only cable newsies who took Trump's candidacy seriously. Both have declared they are NeverTrumpers, but credit where it's due for being ahead of the vast majority of the punditocracy when it came to Trump.

Posted by: WhatWhatWhat? at May 25, 2016 04:27 PM (HMt16)

35 Hillary HATES the military.

That alone, makes her impossible for me to vote for. And it should for anyone who has served or has a loved one who has or is serving.

Of course, it's one of many, many things I despise her for.

Unless something comes out about Trump making trips to Pedo Island with Epstein, or having sex with animals, I'll pull the lever for him. While holding my nose.

Posted by: Jane D'oh at May 25, 2016 04:27 PM (1ZOkK)

36
Oh, good, you fixed the yelling...err...the boldness.

But yes, I think they really do believe that Hillary > Trump. And for the reasons you outlined, I'm horrified by the possibility that Hillary becomes Clinton 45.

That's not to say that Trump won't be as bad as Hillary, potentially worse since he doesn't seem to understand the "separation of power" concept any better than our semi-retired president.

I guess it comes down to the "devil you know" set against the "devil you fear". I personally can't see much of a difference.

Except...Trump will talk to us, and everything is negotiable. So there is a window of being heard, and not having the IRS sicced on us for the affront to Her Royal Highness.

Posted by: I R A Darth Aggie at May 25, 2016 04:27 PM (1hM1d)

37 I much prefer Ace's short stories.

Posted by: Stephen King at May 25, 2016 04:27 PM (NvC7m)

38 Amen

Posted by: brak at May 25, 2016 04:27 PM (MJuTN)

39 Do I want More, More, More?

Yes.

How do you like it?

Posted by: Andrea True at May 25, 2016 04:27 PM (OF/aZ)

40 >>>They're living in a bubble world made of their own spite and ego

I read that as spit.

So now Ace is voting republican and trump after saying no republican and no trump? I'll say this about him, he is flexible.

Posted by: Misanthropic Humanitarian at May 25, 2016 04:27 PM (voOPb)

41 >>>) Trump is a con man. Don't trust him, won't ever trust him.

he is a con man and I do not trust him.

I trust Hillary, however, to do what she was made to do.

Posted by: ace at May 25, 2016 04:27 PM (dciA+)

42 From the post:

"And yet all around me I see people who are far too over-proud of their Upper Middle Class Background willing to elect Hillary Clinton just to prove they graduated (or at least attended) college.

Even on a day when the IG reveals that Hillary Clinton is a criminal, the Never Trumpers continue to Never Trump.

They're living in a bubble world made of their own spite and ego."

Stuff like this, you know. If you already know my motives, why even bother asking me? Is it just so I can be filed in the correct box and you can get going with pointing and shouting "You are NOT of the body!"

Posted by: SparcVark at May 25, 2016 04:28 PM (nKOXj)

43 What also is disturbing is that Hillary-backed fake vets group that protested in front of Trump Tower.

Same dude met with Rich Lowry to discuss #NeverTrump. Pic of it on the twitters.

You bet Hillary's people are in there to try and get some moron to go 3rd party. Seeing a picture of this astroturf Hillary plant with Rich Lowry of NRO was disturbing.

Posted by: prescient13 at May 25, 2016 04:28 PM (8l+DV)

44
By the way, voting for Trump does NOT in any way stop the battle.

I think he is going to have to be dragged kicking and screaming to doing the right things vis a vis taking an axe to the Leviathan and not making deals.

Get ready to have the White House on speed dial.

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at May 25, 2016 04:28 PM (p4UlV)

45 22 NR boxed themselves into a corner (npi) with their petulant "Contra Trump" issue and now they're honor-bound to make themselves seem even smaller.
Posted by: Caliban at May 25, 2016 04:24 PM (DrC22)

Blackened pride still burns inside their shallow, bloody treason.

Posted by: josephistan at May 25, 2016 04:28 PM (7HtZB)

46 Welcome to the Dark Side, Ace.

Posted by: @votermom at May 25, 2016 04:28 PM (7lVbc)

47 >>Yay. Ace got to Acceptance.

Resignation is a form of Acceptance, yes.

Posted by: garrett at May 25, 2016 04:28 PM (NvC7m)

48 Trump is Kaboom cereal.
Hillary is broken glass.
No use pining for Lucky Charms. Eat the Kaboom.

Posted by: wooga at May 25, 2016 04:28 PM (ztBLK)

49 Ace, don't take this the wrong way, but -

You were hard-core anti-Trump because you thought he'd lose? And now that it looks like he may win, the position is untenable and pointless? Have I got that right?

My position remains, If Trump continues to hold positions I consider deal-breakers, I won't vote for him and I won't feel bad about it. I'm well aware that by losing me he gains several potential voters. Fine. That doesn't mean I owe him my vote if those others turn out not to be enough for him.

Posted by: JPS at May 25, 2016 04:28 PM (mH5lL)

50 The Never-Trumpers will eventually move to Mexico to join the remnants of the never-surrender Confedrates.

Posted by: Lower class person whose opinions must be guided at May 25, 2016 04:28 PM (3ZttN)

51 "So I have to ask: At this point, what is the point of the #NeverTrump impulse?"

Because Trump came out and beat all of the Campaign Consultants, he beat all of the Professional Pundits. He has done great damaged to the reputations (and future income streams) of many people in Washington and New York. How many millions were blown on studies, and strategies, and ads, and consultants, and chin-pullers, and the High Priests of the Temple of the GOP? Trump walks in and drops their idol right on the ground in front of him.

They hate him because their rice bowls are in jeopardy and bringing him down is their Leyte Gulf mission. Besides, a Hillary administration promises to bring in plenty of donations to the Consultants and Pundits who promise, promise, promise to thwart her at every turn.

Posted by: *Mikey NTH - Lighter Fluid, Charcoal, and Othe Car-Be-Cue Supplies at the Outrage Outlet at May 25, 2016 04:28 PM (hLRSq)

52 I don't believe Hillary is going to get much of a base unification boost, because she's been the presumptive Dem nom since about 2008.

The Bernie love arrayed against her has been there all along...and it will outlive Bernie's attempt at a Presidential run. This doesn't mean Trump picks up a boost in the polls, it just means that Cankles doesn't pick up much of his vote.

Posted by: Sticky Wicket at May 25, 2016 04:29 PM (On3bk)

53 I'm used to voting for the Least Worst candidate. It's part of the democratic process.

Done that for 35 years. Since Poppy Bush. Welcome to my world.

Posted by: rickb223 at May 25, 2016 04:29 PM (EdhH3)

54 Yes, when faced with the possibility of a know nothing wannabe authoritarian as Prez versus a power-hungry witch, I'll take the power hungry person who at least has some exposure to free markets (or her husband did) and deal with the next 4 years.

Desiring Trump beating Hillary is short term thinking that will destroy whatever conservatives have left (and it apparently ain't much). Trump is literally the least capable human being this close to President, and I think it's beyond dishonorable to vote for him.

Personally, when I go to war, I want to go with a united army. Not one that is fractured and weak. We aren't ready for war (and sadly, we were 2, 4, and 6 years ago). I hope that changes in 2 and 4 years.

Posted by: Douglas Lukasik at May 25, 2016 04:29 PM (EtDBI)

55 Yes, but what about the crease of his pants?

Posted by: josephistan at May 25, 2016 04:29 PM (7HtZB)

56 Posted by: SparcVark at May 25, 2016 04:24 PM (nKOXj)

Anyone who considers trusting a politician is a fool.

The point is not, "Who is trustworthy?"

The point is, "Who will continue on the path of destruction, and who may, just may, turn us aside?"

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at May 25, 2016 04:29 PM (Zu3d9)

57 Just one principle adheres: WWHRC do?

Posted by: Cicero (@cicero) at May 25, 2016 04:29 PM (8ZskC)

58 Says the guy who said he would vote for Hillary over Marco. Your self-righteousness. Your ass. Introduce them.

Posted by: blah at May 25, 2016 04:29 PM (oylsR)

59 Now, if Trump would just STFU with the non-stop yammering at his rallies. Good grief, he loves the sound of is own voice more than Choom Boy.

Gah.

Posted by: Jane D'oh at May 25, 2016 04:29 PM (1ZOkK)

60 NEVAH!

Posted by: Erick Erikson at May 25, 2016 04:29 PM (4ErVI)

61 Don't these people ever give up?

Posted by: Col Kilgore at May 25, 2016 04:29 PM (ZY81i)

62 What spot is Dan Senor going for?

Steve Schmidt already has the token republican strategist job at MSNBC, so I have no idea what his plan is.

Posted by: jwest at May 25, 2016 04:29 PM (Zs4uk)

63 I was a never Trump person until he became the last man standing. I cannot bear the thought of a Clinton Presidency and want her to have a very loud and public melt down. I want her so demoralized that we don't hear from her again while she sits in her Chappaqua home slurping up Manhattans and bitterly ordering her minions around.

I don't want to hear from Bill or Chelsea ever again. In a just world all 3 would be brought up on charges relating to their money laundering access for sale schemes.

I would vote for Sanders over Ma Clinton. Sanders is so off the wall that he would not be able to get anything done - even with Democrats.

I will vote Trump.

Posted by: Cheri at May 25, 2016 04:29 PM (oiNtH)

64 50 The Never-Trumpers will eventually move to Mexico to join the remnants of the never-surrender Confedrates.

Posted by: Lower class person whose opinions must be guided at May 25, 2016 04:28 PM (3ZttN)

"Will Josey Wales please pick up the courtesy Gatling Gun . . ."

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at May 25, 2016 04:30 PM (p4UlV)

65 > 10 Fernandez, over at PJMedia, has it figured out. He doesn't have an answer, he doesn't predict the future, but he has it figured out.

"Half The Puzzle"
Posted by: Glorious Ungent
---------

Yeah, that's good.
https://pjmedia.com/richardfernandez/
2016/05/25/half-the-puzzle/

Posted by: ArthurK at May 25, 2016 04:30 PM (h53OH)

66 Maybe it's time for the great re-sorting to begin. It's time for actual
Democrats, who are most comfortable with Democrats, and feel the most
affinity for Democrats, to make their party allegiance official and
simply declare for Hillary Clinton and join the Democratic Party.

No, it's time for all the RED States to get their legislatures to all at once call for an Art V convention. If they then can not get a one vote each State rewrite to redefine the Constitution back to what it was originally then vote to split the country up into Blue States and Red States and let the asshole Democrats swim in their own shit.

Posted by: Vic We Have No Party at May 25, 2016 04:30 PM (vvmPQ)

67 may I say that Mika and Scarboro actually make a tolerable alternative to Fox news/Fox biz news when the Fox people are doing cooking and sport stuff.

Posted by: mallflower at May 25, 2016 04:30 PM (qSIlh)

68 I can reluctantly accept Trump.
I can never accept his retarded asshole supporters.

Posted by: wooga at May 25, 2016 04:30 PM (ztBLK)

69
Dem pres with Repub Congress will be thwarted at every turn.

Since when? no seriously. I mean, the Iran deal got blocked, right?

Oh, I guess you mean that one time when they decided to not hold hearings on a dead-letter Supreme Court appointment.

Posted by: I R A Darth Aggie at May 25, 2016 04:31 PM (1hM1d)

70 8 It'd be worthwhile to ask the nevertrumpers what they would be saying right now had Jeb! won the nomination.

If they're honest they will admit they'd be telling conservatives to just suck it up and vote for Jeb! because we have no choice.

Again, *if* they're honest.

Posted by: weft cut-loop at May 25, 2016 04:21 PM (p2X2f)

I would have not voted for Jeb Bush.

BUT, I would never vote for Hillary out of spite.

Posted by: Dack Thrombosis at May 25, 2016 04:31 PM (4ErVI)

71 "7 someone at the federalist the other day wrote that allowing Hillery to further wreck the country for another four years will give the conservatives a really strong hand in 2020.

I don't know if it's delusion or madness but both words come pretty close."

Esp. with the millions of "natural conservatives" that the will invade in the next four years under Hillary.

Taking your own side does not make you a racist btw.

Posted by: YourMomKeepsTexting at May 25, 2016 04:31 PM (Zya4s)

72 Is this chapter 1 of Ace's latest novel?

Posted by: dantesed at May 25, 2016 04:31 PM (88xKn)

73 Uh, no. I'm #NeverTrump because I decided I wasn't going to vote for a liberal every again (McCain, Romney) and I meant it. I'm writing in Ted Cruz.

And Ace, what makes you think you aren't going to get all those things you know Hillary will do, from Trump? We will. Maybe not on guns, but if he traded away guns for funding for part of a wall, would you be surprised? I wouldn't.

Plus, SMOD.

Posted by: bkeyser at May 25, 2016 04:31 PM (l4B3N)

74 56 Posted by: SparcVark at May 25, 2016 04:24 PM (nKOXj)

Anyone who considers trusting a politician is a fool.

The point is not, "Who is trustworthy?"

The point is, "Who will continue on the path of destruction, and who may, just may, turn us aside?"
Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at May 25, 2016 04:29 PM (Zu3d9)

As Milton Friedman said, " . . . making it politically profitable for dishonest politicians to do the right thing."

(paraphrase)

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at May 25, 2016 04:31 PM (p4UlV)

75 As far as NeverTrump goes....I see NR is still stroking themselves into a froth, pleading with Mutt Rombley to mount a third party run. Still.

NR...you're drunk, go home.

Posted by: Sticky Wicket at May 25, 2016 04:31 PM (On3bk)

76 However he came around, I'm glad Ace isn't in the whining, anti-Trump column anymore.

Now, if we could just get him take a second look at Sarah Palin...

Posted by: jwest at May 25, 2016 04:31 PM (Zs4uk)

77 I can never accept his retarded asshole supporters.

Posted by: wooga at May 25, 2016 04:30 PM (ztBLK)

you can say that about any politician tho

Posted by: the dude at May 25, 2016 04:31 PM (SyKbw)

78 If you believe Trump is the Antichrist, if you think he's either a stone-cold fascist monster or, alternatively, a Hillary stalking-horse, then you have to oppose him.

I believe neither.

He's a populist with a loose set of principles that don't neatly slot into conservatism, but he's vastly preferable to the former Felon of State.

You can make a principled argument for supporting Bernie, if he pulled out the nomination. You could make a principled argument for supporting Biden.

But there's no excuse for Hillary.

She's done everything Nixon did, and more - back in the day when records were on paper you couldn't expose the country's classified material - and your own personal blackmailable records - to the entire world in half an hour of server misconfiguration.

Posted by: JEM at May 25, 2016 04:32 PM (o+SC1)

79 >>Hillary HATES the military.

That alone, makes her impossible for
me to vote for. And it should for anyone who has served or has a loved
one who has or is serving.

True, but for me it's Benghazi.

She didn't just abandon anyone, she abandoned her own career ambassador, a guy whose parents were DC Democrat movers and was himself a loyal Democrat (so, not some random guy she inherited - Stevens was tight w/one of Hillary's 20+ year aides).

Yet she could leave him to terrorists in order to save her career.
After she'd ignored his pleas for more security for months.
And then she stood in front of his coffin and *lied* to his family and the American people.

The woman has no soul, and like Obama, is willing to sacrifice *any American/number of Americans to achieve her self-entered goals.

Posted by: Lizzy at May 25, 2016 04:32 PM (NOIQH)

80
I'm actually okay with the continued opposition to Trump among some on the right (speaking of the pols and pundits here).

Until we have an official GOP Nominee.

At that point, either publicly get behind the Nominee, shut the fuck up and accept it, or get the fuck out of the Party. Hell, the funny thing is, I'm all on board with pretty much destroying the GOP but you DON'T do it by turning around and supporting Frau Gruppencankles. Not if you expect to have a career representing The Right.

Posted by: IllTemperedCur at May 25, 2016 04:32 PM (eDaPX)

81 I get it, I get it ... but if your only choice is the lesser of two evils eventually all you have left is evil.

Posted by: Mikey at May 25, 2016 04:32 PM (+c8Y4)

82 Now, if we could just get him take a second look at Sarah Palin...

That's a bridge too far...

Posted by: donna at May 25, 2016 04:32 PM (O2RFr)

83 >>Is this chapter 1 of Ace's latest novel?

Yep. It's a flashback scene. Set in the future.

Buckle up, though.

Saffron doesn't show up for the next 1200 pages.

Posted by: garrett at May 25, 2016 04:33 PM (NvC7m)

84
"If G-d forbid the old man dies, Sonny, you'll make the deal."

That's the closest Godfather analogy I have to this situation.

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at May 25, 2016 04:33 PM (p4UlV)

85 Bravo, Ace.

The #NeverTrumpers were logical when there was still a reasonable hope that a true conservative could be the nominee. Now they're just going full Glenn Beck.

You never go full Glenn Beck.

Posted by: Cicero (@cicero) at May 25, 2016 04:33 PM (8ZskC)

86
Posted by: Sticky Wicket at May 25, 2016 04:31 PM (On3bk)

at least they're still not begging Mark Cuban to run third party

Posted by: the dude at May 25, 2016 04:33 PM (SyKbw)

87 67
may I say that Mika and Scarboro actually make a tolerable alternative
to Fox news/Fox biz news when the Fox people are doing cooking and sport
stuff.

Posted by: mallflower at May 25, 2016 04:30 PM (qSIlh)

Fox and Friends is like cartoon "news." It's beyond silly. Ugh.

However, Mika's faces and eye-rolling are so unprofessional. She of the "Know Your Value" preaching Grrrrllll Power!

Posted by: Jane D'oh at May 25, 2016 04:33 PM (1ZOkK)

88 I want her so demoralized that we don't hear from her again while she sits in her Chappaqua home slurping up ~~Manhattans~~Huma and bitterly ordering her minions around.

FIFY.

Posted by: Ian S. at May 25, 2016 04:33 PM (KUTP5)

89 I loathe Trump, I'm firmly in the middle class (I wouldn't say "upper", but it's at least debatable) and I will soon have a graduate degree.

That said, I concur 100% with this post.

Posted by: Randy Weaver's Revenge at May 25, 2016 04:33 PM (0q6u6)

90 Ace,

Been reading your blog since 2004. Never comment. Very sad to see this post, though I knew it was coming. Trump is anathema to me. I will never vote for him or Hillary. I believe in the open society. If it is to be lost, it will not be under my vote. If the sheer nihilism of Trump supporters in the comments (who defend anything and everything he does under the banner of political convenicence) is not enough to convince you of this, I don't know what is. Our republic is dying; I will not douse its flames with incendiary. I will walk away and move to another country if I must.

J

Posted by: Jason at May 25, 2016 04:33 PM (vuTYm)

91 Deez Nuts!!

Posted by: Soona at May 25, 2016 04:33 PM (Fmupd)

92 >>>66 No, it's time for all the RED States to get their legislatures to all at once call for an Art V convention. If they then can not get a one vote each State rewrite to redefine the Constitution back to what it was originally then vote to split the country up into Blue States and Red States and let the asshole Democrats swim in their own shit.

This.

I don't really give a wet shit who wins this November because I'm kind of done with America. It's a silly place run by silly people.

Time to move on.

Posted by: LOL Kabong at May 25, 2016 04:34 PM (MCmqp)

93 It's funny, it took Hillary's 55 mph quote from 2006 to finally push me into the 100% behind Trump.

I've been baby stepping my way over before that.

Posted by: Max Power at May 25, 2016 04:34 PM (q177U)

94 >>Now, if we could just get him take a second look at Sarah Palin...

Pro Tip : Have her work on her Tan Lines.

Posted by: Busty Lesbian Porn Starlet at May 25, 2016 04:34 PM (NvC7m)

95 > 49 Ace, don't take this the wrong way, but -

You were hard-core anti-Trump because you thought he'd lose? And now that it looks like he may win, the position is untenable and pointless? Have I got that right?

-------

I think Ace's point on being against Trump when he looked like a big General Election loser is that a big loss in the GE would also blow out the GOP Senate and House - costing us the ability to fight Hillary.

BUT, if Trump is a narrow loser, the GOP can still hold Congress and limit the damage.

Posted by: ArthurK at May 25, 2016 04:34 PM (h53OH)

96 The Never-Trumpers will eventually move to Mexico to join the remnants of the never-surrender Confedrates.

There are also caves on some islands in the Pacific that are coming available.

Posted by: Cicero (@cicero) at May 25, 2016 04:34 PM (8ZskC)

97
I trust Hillary, however, to do what she was made to do.

Posted by: ace at May 25, 2016 04:27 PM (dciA+)

Ride a broom?

Posted by: Misanthropic Humanitarian at May 25, 2016 04:34 PM (voOPb)

98
Trump would be a lot more palatable if he started arguing with more facts about how got to where we are instead of flinging poo.

But for now, Clinton and Lieawatha are stupefied, and that's enough.

For now.

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at May 25, 2016 04:34 PM (p4UlV)

99 >>However, Mika's faces and eye-rolling are so unprofessional.

Ugh, haaate that.
It's not cute, it's inappropriate and unprofessional.

Posted by: Lizzy at May 25, 2016 04:35 PM (NOIQH)

100 Things just got...interesting.

Posted by: Insomniac at May 25, 2016 04:35 PM (Ydc14)

101 Taranto also had a very good column about this today on BOTW. Not as feisty or fun as Ace, but well done.

Posted by: Caliban at May 25, 2016 04:35 PM (DrC22)

102 Ace, I think people can have honest disagreements about this.

I do not currently plan to vote for Trump for several reasons, some of which are: I will not support a big government, authoritarian, narcissistic demagogue who I have nothing in common with, principle wise and who has not demonstrated a commitment to or even paid lip service to the constitution and the rule of law. Just because he happens to have an R after his name this year.

A liberal megalomaniacal Johnny come lately who assassinated the character of a Senator who has a long history of fighting for conservative causes and his family. No thanks.

And since becoming the presumptive nom, I have seen nothing from Trump to change my mind. (No, I am not moved by a list of judges others typed up for him, people he won't fight for if it means expending political capital when the Dems call them the next coming of Hitler.)

I come from a country with no rule of law. I won't support that in my new home.

I do respect those who feel the same way I do except that they feel he is the lesser of two sucky evils. Some of us choose not to make either choice.

And a lot of people here, including you, Ace, vowed not to vote for Bush or Rubio in the general, so I don't see what the big problem is.

I don't owe Trump or the GOP my support. It has to be earned, and I'm not even asking for much.

Posted by: chique d'afrique, former Republican at May 25, 2016 04:35 PM (iLoHX)

103
Believe me, if Trump tanks in the polls, or if some really terrible info comes out about him (which I think is fairly likely), I'll be the first guy explaining to the Trumpheads why we must pull the bathtub drain on Trump to save the Republic.

And then do what?

Posted by: Bertram Cabot Jr. at May 25, 2016 04:35 PM (k4M/B)

104 The answer to your question lies in Ghostbusters (the original, good one, although I understand from a previous posting that you are quite excited about the possibilities of the newest one)

When told to choose the form of the destructor, best to refuse to play the game and keep your mind blank.

Posted by: Sweet Lou at May 25, 2016 04:35 PM (a2ykg)

105 Posted by: Jason at May 25, 2016 04:33 PM (vuTYm)

Oh you poor poor dear. Bless your heart.

Posted by: Soona at May 25, 2016 04:35 PM (Fmupd)

106 Posted by: bkeyser at May 25, 2016 04:31 PM (l4B3N)

And I'm fine with that. Vote for who you want. Thanks for not voting for Hillary.

Posted by: Dack Thrombosis at May 25, 2016 04:35 PM (4ErVI)

107 95 BUT, if Trump is a narrow loser, the GOP can still hold Congress and limit the damage.
Posted by: ArthurK at May 25, 2016 04:34 PM (h53OH)

COMEDY GOLD!

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at May 25, 2016 04:35 PM (p4UlV)

108 I am definitely in the Never Hillary camp. That's as far as my support for Trump goes. I can't remember where I read someone saying "no one votes for the VP." This is false. I voted for the VP when McCain was running against Obama. Trump's VP pick could go a long way to keep me from vomiting after I pull the lever to merely gagging.

Posted by: no good deed at May 25, 2016 04:35 PM (9nt94)

109 I'm voting for the opponents of the fuckers who keep calling my house phone. Might not be anyone left come November.

Posted by: nckate at May 25, 2016 04:35 PM (IZFV4)

110 Our republic is dying; I will not douse its flames with incendiary. I will walk away and move to another country if I must.

Posted by: Jason at May 25, 2016 04:33 PM (vuTYm)

Didn't Patrick Henry say that?

Posted by: jwest at May 25, 2016 04:35 PM (Zs4uk)

111
I'd say you nailed it Ace.

Posted by: dave at May 25, 2016 04:35 PM (Q39AM)

112 Alternative theory: many NeverTrump folks think Trump is as bad or worse than Hillary. For instance, while Hillary will be bad on both economic and foreign policy, I think Trump is more likely to be catastrophically bad, to start a major war without need or to tank the economy via a trade war. Furthermore, Trump, no less than Hillary, is fundamentally authoritarian in his view of government, it's just an authoritarianism that isn't as directly aimed at me (yet). If I'm willing to accept that American is going to become and remain authoritarian, I'd reluctantly accept Trump over Hillary. However, since I still hold out hope that an anti-authoritarian revival might happen after 4 years of Hillary (but not after Trump, since his victory would make the Republican Party thoroughly authoritarian without making the Democrats less so) I cannot support Trump. I will cast my protest vote and hope my country comes to its senses.

Posted by: Anachronism at May 25, 2016 04:35 PM (48ffF)

113 welcome to the party pal!

Posted by: redc1c4 at May 25, 2016 04:35 PM (8Y4jo)

114 Posted by: Douglas Lukasik

You post confuses me. You don't want to go to war with a weak military and you think Hillary will be better than Trump in this regard?

Read the book 'Dereliction of Duty' by Ret. Col. Buzz Patterson of his time in the WH carrying the nuclear football under Clinton.

The Clintons both HATE the military.

Posted by: Cheri at May 25, 2016 04:36 PM (oiNtH)

115 You make the mistake that #NeverTrump was about the primary. Its not. Its NEVER Trump. It was a signal to other Republicans that during the primary, we would not vote for Trump then or in the general. It was hopeful that people who change their votes because of that. That didn't happen, but that doesn't change the fact that we will NEVER vote Trump. Why?

Yes, we get it, Hillary is terrible. But we fear a Trump presidency more. We cannot trust a thing he says, so yes he will be worse. He will also taint the conservative movement and the Republican Party with his terribleness, setting both back years and maybe decades. (Not that I really care about the Party, but it is a necessary vehicle to advance good principles).

Some of the things you said Trump wouldn't do, but these he would, and probably worse:

"More executive power grabs? More lying to federal judges by Administration officials? More contempt by Attorneys General and Directors of the IRS?"

He's running on a platform of greatly expanding the executive power!

"More millions of illegals amnestied?"

He is all for touchback amnesty! He'll make the Gang of Eight look moderate.

"More foreign policy ineptitude?"

Trump has no idea about foreign policy. He'll be terrible. He will get us in to BAD wars.

"More illegal executive actions to ban guns?"

I believe that at the first change, Trump will go antigun. He's already said he's in favor of banning those on the terrorist watch list from guns. He'll push for UBCs for sure.

"More liberal Justices?"

When faced with a filibuster, Trump will choose a Souter, or at best a Roberts. It'll be the same in the end.

Its not about virtue signaling. Its about maintaining honor and principles. Just because the other candidate is terrible doesn't mean we have to submit to this candidate.

Between Trump and Clinton, I choose neither. You imply we must chose, and sorry, I reject that false choice. My vote doesn't automatically go to the one side just because you are scared.

Posted by: Patrick Henry, the 2nd at May 25, 2016 04:36 PM (jTy8z)

116
True, but for me it's Benghazi.

She didn't just abandon anyone, she abandoned her own career ambassador, a guy whose parents were DC Democrat movers and was himself a loyal Democrat (so, not some random guy she inherited - Stevens was tight w/one of Hillary's 20+ year aides).

Posted by: Lizzy at May 25, 2016 04:32 PM (NOIQH)

Just a side note, she didn't abandon 4 Americans to die in Benghazi. She abandoned about 30-40 Americans to die in Benghazi, maybe even more than that. The only reason so many survived is because a handful of honorable, brave badasses DISREGARDED ORDERS TO STAND DOWN to defend their fellow Americans.

Posted by: IllTemperedCur at May 25, 2016 04:36 PM (eDaPX)

117 Ace - Worth a few minutes of your time, I think:
"Trump Is Not Conservative, He’s A Pragmatist"
by Mychal Massie at his blog:
http://preview.tinyurl.com/hker92a

Posted by: Mike Hammer, etc., etc. at May 25, 2016 04:36 PM (9mTYi)

118 It doesn't matter.

You have to convince the swing voters in the general election.

Hillary gets simply replaced by Biden or Bernie. That will more than compensate for Hillary's historic unfavorables with men.

Remember the Democrats have their Super Delegate system in place and they aren't afraid to use it.

Dean and Daschle got rid of Hillary before because of her historic unfavorables, and the democrats will do it again if it means the ultimate end goal--winning.

Posted by: Danube River Guide at May 25, 2016 04:36 PM (mcm0N)

119 "Anyone who considers trusting a politician is a fool.

The point is not, "Who is trustworthy?"

The point is, "Who will continue on the path of destruction, and who may, just may, turn us aside?" "

If you really think we're on the "path of destruction" no presidential election is going to change that path. The USA will either turn itself around, politicians notwithstanding, or it won't.

Look, I know political figures lie, change their positions, shift, etc. But Trump - the man ran Trump University and an MLM scheme. He doesn't think that making a statement gives him the tiniest obligation to follow through, it's just something he can take back the next time he speaks. That's on a whole different plane than the political figures I'm used to.

Posted by: SparcVark at May 25, 2016 04:36 PM (nKOXj)

120 Which hills to die on?

Debbie Wasserman Schultz and the RNC just sent out a push poll that includes a Republican Threat section where voters are asked: "Which elements of the radical Republican agenda are most dangerous to America's future" (pick any three)

1. Dismantling the Affordable Care Act
2. Restricting women's reproductive rights
3. Reversing marriage equality and other LGBT civil rights
4. Opposing a minimum wage increase
5. Gutting Social Security and Medicare
6. Packing SCOTUS with far right idealogues
7. Obstructing comprehensive immigration reform
8. Denying the existence of climate change
9. Refusing to handle international affairs diplomatically

Debbie left out Trade, unless she's covering it with #9, because it's become a loser for Dems.

Gun rights gets subsumed under SCOTUS appointments.

This presents a road map for our priorities, folks. We can't have it all -- running on all the issues is a killer for R Presidential candidates. Plus we want mandates on key issues so strong that even Ryan and McConnell will understand.

#1 Trump is for, but you can't let people die in the streets.
#2 Soft peddle.
#3 Soft peddle.
#4 Trump isn't against a small increase.
#5. Stay away from. Death right now.
#6 Trump has already picked his SCOTUS list.
#7 Build the Wall. Reverse Obama's EOs. Start enforcing the law
#8 Looks like Trump is about to go strong on denying climate change. This is a hill to die on as it's necessary to reverse the EPA, and to blow up academia.
#9 Trump will put America and Americans first.

I agree with these priorities. You might not. But that's why I'm a Trumpster. Also because he has Mad Media Skillz and might well get a lot done on these priorities.

Posted by: Ignoramus at May 25, 2016 04:36 PM (r1fLd)

121 95 BUT, if Trump is a narrow loser, the GOP can still hold Congress and limit the damage.

Posted by: ArthurK at May 25, 2016 04:34 PM (h53OH)

I see somebody has been asleep for the past several years.

Posted by: Our Country is Screwed - PROUD LGBT - Loves Guns, Beer and Tatas at May 25, 2016 04:36 PM (jxbfJ)

122 Wooga:

Best analogy ever. And, as an upside, there are certain times when you really like Kaboom, despite usual aversion. LOL

Posted by: prescient13 at May 25, 2016 04:36 PM (8l+DV)

123 If all I cared about was winning, I'd have volunteered for Obama, not Romney, last time around.

Posted by: chique d'afrique, former Republican at May 25, 2016 04:36 PM (iLoHX)

124
If a Conservative would vote for Trump, he'd vote for *ANYONE*. So which do you want? 4 bad years of Hillary and a rebuilt party, or the death of Conservativism forever.

Because good luck getting a single Conservative ever nominated again when they'll know you voted for Trump so they don't NEED to run a Conservative.

That's the point of #NeverTrump. It has nothing to do with Hillary and everything to do with the future of Conservativism.

Posted by: some1 at May 25, 2016 04:37 PM (S5LAZ)

125 Oh and the one other thing I forgot- every impulse Trump wants, he will get with a GOP Congress. At least with Clinton, she will be fought.

Posted by: Patrick Henry, the 2nd at May 25, 2016 04:37 PM (jTy8z)

126 BUT, if Trump is a narrow loser, the GOP can still hold Congress and limit the damage.
Posted by: ArthurK at May 25, 2016 04:34 PM (h53OH)

COMEDY GOLD!

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at May 25, 2016 04:35 PM (p4UlV)

If Trump is a narrow loser, the GOP can still hold Congress and limit the damage.

Posted by: Amy Schumer at May 25, 2016 04:37 PM (KUaJL)

127 >>Our republic is dying; I will not douse its flames with incendiary. I will walk away and move to another country if I must.

'All I need is this remote control, this lamp and another Hill to die on.'

Posted by: The Jerk at May 25, 2016 04:37 PM (NvC7m)

128 >>10 Fernandez, over at PJMedia, has it figured out. He doesn't have an answer, he doesn't predict the future, but he has it figured out. "Half The Puzzle" Posted by: Glorious Ungent at May 25, 2016 04:21 PM (kBd14)

I liked that article. Basic gist, support for Trump is the big NO. And maybe it's time for that.

Posted by: Caliban at May 25, 2016 04:37 PM (DrC22)

129 102 I don't owe Trump or the GOP my support. It has to be earned, and I'm not even asking for much.
Posted by: chique d'afrique, former Republican at May 25, 2016 04:35 PM (iLoHX)

Let me ask you, what can Trump do in the remaining 5 months to get you to at least hold your nose and pull the lever?

Forget the GOP. If you let Hilary win, the courts are gone for 50 years. As is what's left of America as it was.

Are you cool with that? If so, stay home in November.

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at May 25, 2016 04:37 PM (p4UlV)

130 I am #nevertrump. And the simple reason is, that while I think it's somewhat probable that Trump would be less disastrous than Clinton, I view the vote as more than just choosing which one is less bad. The vote is a positive affirmation that I think this man or woman will be a good president. And I am a Christian, and an affirmative vote for Trump runs contrary to everything the Bible says about wisdom and leadership. Therefore, I will write in Cruz or someone else, and leave the results in God's hands. You may call that virtue signaling, but that's the truth of it. At the same time, I am not going to be publicly campaigning against Trump at this point. I'm just pretty much checked out of the election, except as a passive observer.

Posted by: Matt from WY at May 25, 2016 04:38 PM (RSa+S)

131 Where have you gone Augusto Pinochet?
A nation turns its blackened eyes to you

Posted by: Insomniac at May 25, 2016 04:38 PM (Ydc14)

132 Between Trump and Clinton, I choose neither. You imply we must chose, and sorry, I reject that false choice. My vote doesn't automatically go to the one side just because you are scared.
Posted by: Patrick Henry, the 2nd at May 25, 2016 04:36 PM (jTy8z)

If not voting for Trump helps Hillary, not voting for Hillary helps Trump. So we're even.

Posted by: chique d'afrique, former Republican at May 25, 2016 04:38 PM (iLoHX)

133 67 may I say that Mika and Scarboro actually make a tolerable alternative to Fox news/Fox biz news when the Fox people are doing cooking and sport stuff.

Agreed. I cut the cable a while ago but you can watch most of Morning Joe (all the good parts) streaming online, and I frequently do. I just cannot stand that inane Fox & Friends anymore. I find myself going to Morning Joe more and more often.

Me watching MSNBC (in a way.) This election season has brought about all kinds of unthinkables.

Posted by: WhatWhatWhat? at May 25, 2016 04:38 PM (HMt16)

134 Between Trump and Clinton, I choose neither. You imply we must chose, and sorry, I reject that false choice. My vote doesn't automatically go to the one side just because you are scared.
Posted by: Patrick Henry
------------

Because the election is all about how you feel about yourself, right? It's not at all about who will be President.

Posted by: Mike Hammer, etc., etc. at May 25, 2016 04:38 PM (9mTYi)

135 Why does this even need explaining?

Posted by: Weasel at May 25, 2016 04:38 PM (e3bId)

136 Its like they don't want to win.

Posted by: Iblis at May 25, 2016 04:38 PM (9221z)

137 The airplane is in a controlled nosedive. Hillary is at the controls.
In the corner is a drooling idiot who played some flight simulators on his laptop.
Once at the controls, he may not know how to pull up.

Pick one

Posted by: Village Idiot's Apprentice at May 25, 2016 04:38 PM (dEmhF)

138 #125

The GOP will fight HRC as effectively as they fought BHO.

Eight more years of failure theater.

Posted by: craig henry at May 25, 2016 04:39 PM (Dhac1)

139 Anyone who can vote for the butcher of Benghazi (who came up with that moniker - it's genius) or aid in her being elected .. I'm not going to say what I think and get banned...

Posted by: IC at May 25, 2016 04:39 PM (a0IVu)

140
I'm going to make a bold prediction: if Hillary nominates the next several Supreme Court nominees, expect the rulings in McDonald and Heller to be overturned within 10 years.

The First Amendment will follow soon after.

My lord...is that legal?
I will make it legal!

https://youtu.be/nz20lu2AM2k

Posted by: I R A Darth Aggie at May 25, 2016 04:39 PM (1hM1d)

141 101 Taranto also had a very good column about this today on BOTW. Not as feisty or fun as Ace, but well done.
Posted by: Caliban at May 25, 2016 04:35 PM (DrC22)

Who cares what that toe-sucking weirdo has to say?

Wait, I thought that said "Tarantino."

Posted by: josephistan at May 25, 2016 04:39 PM (7HtZB)

142 124

If a Conservative would vote for Trump, he'd vote for *ANYONE*. So
which do you want? 4 bad years of Hillary and a rebuilt party, or the
death of Conservativism forever.

Because good luck getting a
single Conservative ever nominated again when they'll know you voted for
Trump so they don't NEED to run a Conservative.

That's the point of #NeverTrump. It has nothing to do with Hillary and everything to do with the future of Conservativism.

Posted by: some1 at May 25, 2016 04:37 PM (S5LAZ)

Explain McCain. Explain Romney.Neither were Conservatives

Posted by: Our Country is Screwed - PROUD LGBT - Loves Guns, Beer and Tatas at May 25, 2016 04:39 PM (jxbfJ)

143 Trump has Jeff Sessions leading his foreign policy team, so there is that.

Posted by: CSMBigBird at May 25, 2016 04:39 PM (jsWA8)

144 131 Where have you gone Augusto Pinochet?
A nation turns its blackened eyes to you
Posted by: Insomniac at May 25, 2016 04:38 PM (Ydc14)

Did you graduate from the Joe Biden School of Plagiarism?!

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at May 25, 2016 04:40 PM (p4UlV)

145 I have NO use for anyone who would sit by and let that FAB get elected, NO MATTER WHAT THEIR RATIONAL.

Posted by: Nevergiveup at May 25, 2016 04:40 PM (Ozsfq)

146 >>The airplane is in a controlled nosedive. Hillary is at the controls.
In the corner is a drooling idiot who played some flight simulators on his laptop.

I can do this, guys!

Posted by: Cyril Figgus at May 25, 2016 04:40 PM (NvC7m)

147 I'm tired of voting for people I can't support. I won't vote for Trump. I won't vote for Hillary either. I'll be voting for whomever the Libertarians put up (probably Johnson/Weld).

I have the luxury of this because I live in MA, which will go big for Hillary regardless of what I do. But honestly, I think Trump will be just as bad as Hillary. Maybe not in the same ways, but in other, equally destructive ways.

Posted by: Farmer Joe at May 25, 2016 04:40 PM (F2rZx)

148 137 The airplane is in a controlled nosedive. Hillary is at the controls.
In the corner is a drooling idiot who played some flight simulators on his laptop.
Once at the controls, he may not know how to pull up.

Pick one
Posted by: Village Idiot's Apprentice at May 25, 2016 04:38 PM (dEmhF)

But we know Hillary is going to deliberately augur in.

Posted by: Insomniac at May 25, 2016 04:40 PM (Ydc14)

149 I come from a country with no rule of law. I won't support that in my new home.

I do respect those who feel the same way I do except that they feel
he is the lesser of two sucky evils. Some of us choose not to make
either choice.

And a lot of people here, including you, Ace, vowed not to vote for
Bush or Rubio in the general, so I don't see what the big problem is.

I don't owe Trump or the GOP my support. It has to be earned, and I'm not even asking for much.

Posted by: chique d'afrique, former Republican at May 25, 2016 04:35 PM (iLoHX)
============================================

Hi chique. I was thinking of you the other day. This would be your first election since becoming a citizen, no? I wish we had something better to offer you. This election makes me sad. Just sad.

And I'm long past the point of caring what anyone thinks of how I vote.

Posted by: grammie winger at May 25, 2016 04:40 PM (dFi94)

150 If a Conservative would vote for Trump, he'd vote for *ANYONE*. So which do you want? 4 bad years of Hillary and a rebuilt party, or the death of Conservativism forever.

Because good luck getting a single Conservative ever nominated again when they'll know you voted for Trump so they don't NEED to run a Conservative.

That's the point of #NeverTrump. It has nothing to do with Hillary and everything to do with the future of Conservativism.
Posted by: some1 at May 25, 2016 04:37 PM (S5LAZ)

If you're right here in your logic, everything that is true for Trump, it was true for Mitt Romney last cycle.

Posted by: Amy Schumer at May 25, 2016 04:40 PM (KUaJL)

151 >>> 132 If not voting for Trump helps Hillary, not voting for Hillary helps Trump. So we're even.

So...I'm voting for both of them then? I love this cosmic fortune cookie shit.

Especially coming from the same people who squealed about the GOPe deploying it against them in the cases of McCain and Romney.

Posted by: LOL Kabong at May 25, 2016 04:40 PM (MCmqp)

152 Consider the timing of this OIG Report. The State Department Inspector General was hired by Obama.

Hillary is not polling a that well--the knives are out.

Electability matters to Democrats.

Maybe it should matter to the party in opposition if they want to win.

Any neutral and fair observer knows that there are better people out there qualified for the Presidency.

Posted by: Danube River Guide at May 25, 2016 04:40 PM (mcm0N)

153 Not sure I give enough of a shit about this republic anymore to bother stopping Hillary by voting for the orange fuck nut. It's all smoke and mirrors at this point. You're just choosing the Wiz.

Best we get on with the wrap up party. Whichever candidate gets us to the end game quickest gets my vote.

You may hate Hillary, but that doesn't make Trump a viable President.

Posted by: AlaBAMA at May 25, 2016 04:40 PM (pUDQf)

154 So you're saying co-ed showers are a bad thing?

Posted by: Anonosaurus Wrecks at May 25, 2016 04:40 PM (Nwg0u)

155 People can mock me if they wish. Perhaps it would sting more if they weren't devoted to an orange reality TV clown who clearly does not believe a word he says besides that which serves his own aspirations for power. I will not vote for an aspiring autocrat who knows literally nothing of the founding documents of our nation.

Posted by: Jason at May 25, 2016 04:40 PM (vuTYm)

156 Just a side note, she didn't abandon 4 Americans to
die in Benghazi. She abandoned about 30-40 Americans to die in Benghazi,
maybe even more than that. The only reason so many survived is because a
handful of honorable, brave badasses DISREGARDED ORDERS TO STAND DOWN
to defend their fellow Americans.

Posted by: IllTemperedCur at May 25, 2016 04:36 PM (eDaPX)

Yes. And Choom Boy jetted off to Vegas the next morning with apparently nary a thought to the dead and injured. They're both cold, soulless ghouls.

Posted by: Jane D'oh at May 25, 2016 04:41 PM (1ZOkK)

157 I think you're missing another angle, Ace, though it might not be a factor for the #NeverTrumpers you've encountered. (Because, honestly, you're seeing mostly political class people in your readings, I'm betting.)
The fact is that the SCOTUS *can't* be saved unless at least 3 progs leave it during the next 4 years, without losing any more conservatives, and *actual conservatives* replace them. Do you think 3 Constitutionalists will actually get through the Senate?
The difficulty is that the ballot box has lost its effectiveness as a means of returning us to a limited, Constitutional gov't. Voting for Trump won't fix it. Voting for Hillary won't grease the zipline to hell much more than it already is.
So, some #NeverTrumpers are in the LIB camp more than anything else.

Posted by: GWB at May 25, 2016 04:41 PM (YPK4q)

158 Let me ask you, what can Trump do in the remaining 5 months to get you to at least hold your nose and pull the lever?

Forget the GOP. If you let Hilary win, the courts are gone for 50 years. As is what's left of America as it was.

Are you cool with that? If so, stay home in November.

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at May 25, 2016 04:37 PM (p4UlV)

Aside from signing irrevocable agreements saying he'd do certain things, I don't know. I do not trust him. He has shown himself to be of very low character, which he has developed over his almost 70 years of life. And we have extensive history available. Unless he has a little come-to-Jesus moment, I really don't know. But who knows what will happen before November?

Posted by: chique d'afrique, former Republican at May 25, 2016 04:41 PM (iLoHX)

159 "I have NO use for anyone who would sit by and let that FAB get elected, NO MATTER WHAT THEIR RATIONAL."

This is why I'm getting out of politics in favor of birdwatching, frankly. I just need time to cut the cord.

Posted by: SparcVark at May 25, 2016 04:41 PM (nKOXj)

160 #NeverTrump

Because special snowflakes are not only found on the Left and on college campuses.

Posted by: craig henry at May 25, 2016 04:41 PM (Dhac1)

161 154 So you're saying co-ed showers are a bad thing?
Posted by: Anonosaurus Wrecks at May 25, 2016 04:40 PM (Nwg0u)

Jimmy Savile grabbing your yutzick is not my idea of "co-ed."

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at May 25, 2016 04:41 PM (p4UlV)

162 149 I come from a country with no rule of law. I won't support that in my new home.

I do respect those who feel the same way I do except that they feel
he is the lesser of two sucky evils. Some of us choose not to make
either choice.

And a lot of people here, including you, Ace, vowed not to vote for
Bush or Rubio in the general, so I don't see what the big problem is.

I don't owe Trump or the GOP my support. It has to be earned, and I'm not even asking for much.

Posted by: chique d'afrique, former Republican at May 25, 2016 04:35 PM (iLoHX)

*************

Correct.

Posted by: Danube River Guide at May 25, 2016 04:41 PM (mcm0N)

163 Ace, I agree wholeheartedly.

Trump isn't my first choice; hell, he didn't make into the top 1,000. The Republicans had some fine candidates - Perry and Jindal were my choices - but Trump was the only one who spoke forthrightly about the disintegration of our borders, particularly illegal immigration and trade, and he won. So be it.

Three things to bear in mind:

* Trump, bad as he could be, will not be as bad as Obama.
* Trump, bad as he could be, will not be as bad as Clinton.
* Trump will be under microscopic examination from a suddenly reawakened news media, which will suddenly have been transformed from claque to vigilant protectors of the Republic.

And it's worth noting that the wise-guys in the party also dismissed Reagan - and still do, in their rare moments of candor. The likelihood that Trump is a Reagan is remote; but the disdain of the self-styled cognoscenti is not necessarily damning.

So, I'll pinch my nose and vote for Trump.

Posted by: Brown Line at May 25, 2016 04:41 PM (XnRn2)

164 So again I must cast my vote "against" someone instead of "for" someone?

Once again I am to compromise my principles and vote for someone I have no confidence in, don't have any trust in, who I find repulsive, because the devil I know is worse than the devil i do not know?

The republic died years ago... it died when no one stood up for the constitution, it died when no one stood up to lying to the American people (Obamacare, Iran deal, etc.), it died when honest American's were targeted because of their political views by the IRS, it died when the administration said a film and not terrorism was responsible for the death of our Ambassador.

Now I'm suppose to vote with "hope" that Trump will be better than Hillary? That if he is bad he will be held in check by the senate and house of reps? You know... like they stood up to Obama's lawlessness?

At one time I read on here "Let it Burn"... well, it has burned. Been burning pretty well. Now the same ones that said "Let it burn" are telling me... "Okay boys... rally around the fire."

This is the worse choices we have every had in an election. No matter how you want to wrap Trump up in he is still Trump, will continue to act like Trump, and will run America like some two bit flashy casino hotel.

Basically... we're being asked to vote for "Hope and Change". We vote hoping Trump will govern with views, that up until running he never has had... while at the same time we are also voting for change... trusting trump to fundamentally transform our country back to something that resembles America?

Hope is not a strategy. Never has been, never will be. If hope is all you have then you have to be honest with yourself and fully admit you have nothing.

Posted by: Creeky at May 25, 2016 04:42 PM (clbHW)

165 Principles, ethics, intellectual honesty...you know..those things that some people were willing to fight for. Well, that and there being little difference between the two. It's like this..would it really make any difference WHO "ruled Bartertown"? Would one thug really be any different than the other? They're both playing the Bartertown game and the rest of us have to go along. The end result to me will be no different. If thats the case, I'll keep my principles. Just my opinion..others may feel differently.

Posted by: Guido Luigi at May 25, 2016 04:42 PM (aRUb8)

166 Ace, David French had a good article on this lately.

http://tinyurl.com/hfccgah

He remains #NeverTrump, and I think his argument is a compelling one.

Basically, among the two major parties, we now have a choice between:

1. Someone who will definitely do bad things
2. Someone who will definitely do bad things, but might do one or two good things

For instance, take the "weaponization of government". Can you honestly say that President Trump wouldn't engage in the same weaponization tactics that Obama has? I don't think he would let a few petty rules get in the way of what he wants to do.

So the "fall in line" crowd is basically asking people like me to vote for a guy whom we know will definitely do bad things, but "there's a chance!" that he might possibly do something good? How is that a compelling argument?

Posted by: Couch Fucker at May 25, 2016 04:42 PM (uAvJJ)

167 I also enjoy the idiocy of Trump supporters. He's said himself many times that he doesn't want or need my vote, but not I'm supposed to owe it to him lest Hillary? I take the man at his word. Best of luck to him without me.

Posted by: Jason at May 25, 2016 04:42 PM (vuTYm)

168 I'm not voting for Trump or Hillary. I certainly don't want to spend the next four years explaining why I am expending effort to thwart every move of a President I voted for.

Posted by: stuiec at May 25, 2016 04:42 PM (eetvJ)

169 oops sock/off

Posted by: chemjeff at May 25, 2016 04:42 PM (uAvJJ)

170

#NeverTrump = #HillaryHump!

Do it! Hump her slit! Pound her pooter! Toss Huma off the bed, throw her Hitachi across the room, and go down on Hitlery like you have dreamed of! She is SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO much better than The Dump!

Posted by: Borrochonista Gay Muslims for Hitlery! at May 25, 2016 04:42 PM (KId5h)

171 144 131 Where have you gone Augusto Pinochet?
A nation turns its blackened eyes to you
Posted by: Insomniac at May 25, 2016 04:38 PM (Ydc14)

Did you graduate from the Joe Biden School of Plagiarism?!

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at May 25, 2016 04:40 PM (p4UlV)

Nope. I know I got it from another moron. If that's yours, I give full attribution.

Posted by: Insomniac at May 25, 2016 04:42 PM (Ydc14)

172 Connery was a little past his prime in Never Say Never Trump Again

Posted by: x at May 25, 2016 04:42 PM (nFwvY)

173 I'm not voting for Trump, but my vote doesn't matter because I live in a solid blue state where you have to have a D after your name to get elected. (Except we did manage to elect a Republican governor in 2014.) But yes, if I lived in a state where it mattered, I would vote for Trump because Hillary is too awful to contemplate.

Posted by: biancaneve at May 25, 2016 04:42 PM (xa+7G)

174 I'm actually starting to like Trump. He's saying the things about Hillary (and today, Elizabeth Warren) that we've been saying for years, and which the GOPe claims are beyond the pale, and giving no fucks when the MFM acts scandalized (which is the correct way to deprive them of their power).

Posted by: Ian S. at May 25, 2016 04:42 PM (KUTP5)

175 Point of never Trump with me is I don't believe either of he nor Hillary is fit to be president... and almost all that stuff that you asked if we wanted (like transconfused bathroom invaders)? Yeah, Trump is all in for that stuff too.

No thanks... I will vote for my cat before I vote for either of those two.

Posted by: redbanzai at May 25, 2016 04:42 PM (3JA/M)

176 If someone feels "Candidate X has given me no reason to support him/ her and a list of reasons not to support him/ her", I think they are entitled to both have and express that opinion and that those opinions may be legitimate, irrespective of how bad the alternatives are.

Example, for all the reasons that ace illustrated above and thousands more that anyone here could mention, I would never cast a vote for Hillary Clinton. Equally if not more importantly, I would never cast a vote for Hillary Clinton because she has never demonstrated any reason why I would vote for her, even if she was not such a horrid monster.

That does not mean I must support her opponent (Bernie or Trump) because I totally and completely oppose her. If I do not vote for her or her opponent, she does not gain a vote that she otherwise would not have had.

If she wins, it is because more people supported her than supported her opponent. Yeah, do some people go out and cast protest votes for a ham sandwich to voice their opposition against the opponent of the ham sandwich? Sure. But more of them stay home, vote for no one than go to the inconvenience of going out and standing in line to cast a ballot for a ham sandwich.

Supporters, on the other hand, are excited. They are on a mission. They are enthusiastic and believe that they are marching on the cause of righteousness. They have found their leader and will do whatever it takes to support and follow that leader.

People win elections based on the support they earn... even in our completely fucked up, undemocratic, thumb on the scale, votes found in trunks, coin tossing, card picking, zombies who have always lived with 1,000 other zombies on a 200 sq ft vacant lot in the contested district turning out a 200% of register voter counts system.

If you're candidate failed to garner sufficient support for their supporters to engage in sufficient fraud in excess of their opponent's fraud to win, are they really the leader that they're supposed to be?

Posted by: Damiano at May 25, 2016 04:42 PM (71OEY)

177 Hillary will be horrible, but she won't destroy the country.

Trump will remake the GOP in his image, which will destroy the country.

Posted by: 29Victor at May 25, 2016 04:43 PM (Koq2Z)

178
At this point, what is the point of the #NeverTrump impulse?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lVwZhNx-_uQ

Posted by: Laurie David's Cervix at May 25, 2016 04:43 PM (kdS6q)

179 "My vote doesn't automatically go to the one side just because you are scared."
---
self-righteous sophistry isn't really a great way to get people to agree with your argument...

but, then again, it's all you've got. go have another bong hit and get back to Facebook.

Posted by: redc1c4 at May 25, 2016 04:43 PM (8Y4jo)

180 However, since I still hold out hope that an anti-authoritarian revival might happen after 4 years of Hillary I cannot support Trump. I will cast my protest vote and hope my country comes to its senses.

Posted by: Anachronism at May 25, 2016 04:35 PM (48ffF)

Yes, America's taste for authoritarianism has certainly taken a screaming nosedive after seven years of Il Douche, hasn't it?

BTW, are you perchance in the market for a nice bridge?

Posted by: Cicero (@cicero) at May 25, 2016 04:43 PM (8ZskC)

181 Well this thread brought out all the drive by trolls

Posted by: Nevergiveup at May 25, 2016 04:43 PM (Ozsfq)

182 "And yet all around me I see people who are far too over-proud of their Upper Middle Class Background willing to elect Hillary Clinton just to prove they graduated (or at least attended) college."

One marker for this affliction is believing in CAGW. I noted a few years ago that truck drivers were likely to know more about issues with using tree rings as proxies for historic temperatures than denizens of the Upper West side, because the truck drivers listened to Rush and the Upper West Siders were limited to what was in The New York Times.

Posted by: Ignoramus at May 25, 2016 04:43 PM (r1fLd)

183 The choice betwixt Lady Macbeth or Falstaff.

Easy call indeed.

Posted by: RKae at May 25, 2016 04:43 PM (Gjz73)

184 Maybe it's time for the great re-sorting to begin. It's time for actual Democrats, who are most comfortable with Democrats, and feel the most affinity for Democrats, to make their party allegiance official

Yes, true, but it is no longer a binary choice Democrat v Republican.

The democrats are as fractured as the GOP. It would take about four, maybe five political parties to sort everyone out. Which might not be a bad idea.

Posted by: Glorious Ungent at May 25, 2016 04:43 PM (kBd14)

185 66
If they then can not get a one vote each State rewrite to redefine the Constitution back to what it was originally then vote to split the country up into Blue States and Red States and let the asshole Democrats swim in their own shit.
Posted by: Vic We Have No Party at May 25, 2016 04:30 PM (vvmPQ)

Yeah, but it's not blue states and red states, but blue counties and red counties, with a lot of purple ones in the mix.

Posted by: rickl at May 25, 2016 04:43 PM (zoehZ)

186 I find Trump interesting.

He plays a certain character at political rallies. He speaks as a populist to many people who think of themselves as Americans, and socially and politically conservative, who feel betrayed by the Republican leadership, who we all think scoffs and laughs at the average guy.

To openly support Trump brings guffaws and ridicule, as if you were some mouth breathing idiot. But....Hillary the un-indicted criminal is the smart choice to be President. Who's really the rube here?

We are all being trolled at some incredible major league level, and have been for years.

I think that Trump is more clever than he seems, and has a deeper understanding of a lot of the issues. Every once in a while, he casually tosses of a remark that to me, indicates he knows, yet doesn't dwell on the deeper causes of issues. He is not a political or academic genius, but I don't think he is a simple, rich buffoon.

He speaks directly and plainly TO people, and not in necessarily prepared speeches with a 40 -point plan to fix the economy.
He has tried to place himself as a Centrist, and has eschewed a lot of standard Republican positions, to make him more attractive to the independents who might lean his way; the people that used to be called Reagan Democrats. People that still care about the Republic, and are appalled and alarmed by Barack Obama, but are mute because it is all racism if you criticize His Nibs.

His positions and remarks as a Centrist have appalled a lot of True Conservatives, who make a nice living positioning themselves and doing nothing of substance, regarding Barack Obama and the Democrats.
He has certainly said things at times that appall me personally.

Yet, again, what are the alternatives? Hope against hope at this point, that something "positive" happens? Somebody else will do it for you?

Nobody else is coming along to fix this. Oh yes, in 2020, a REAL CONSERVATIVE will come from somewhere to oust Hillary. Really? Who is this person? Where will they come from?

Bulletin: This is no longer a Center - Right nation in ideology or political make-up. As much as it appalled people in 2012, Romney might have been one of a handful of people that could have bridged the differences and gotten elected, although he proved unable to make a strong counter claim for himself and make the deal at the end of the campaign.

And this now Center-Left nation will reject a True Conservative, because that's not where people are right now. Sorry. The whole country is NOT Texas.
Trump, trying to straddle the populist middle, may be the best we can get in 2016. But 4 more years of Hillary Obama will fix that. Sure.

Trump or Hillary. It's your right, it's your choice, it's your vote.

Posted by: Bossy Conservative...pondering the future at May 25, 2016 04:43 PM (RFeQD)

187 Posted by: Creeky at May 25, 2016 04:42 PM (clbHW)

What Creeky and Guido said.

Posted by: Mimzey at May 25, 2016 04:43 PM (aRUb8)

188 Why do the #NeverTrumpers persist?

Because they exist off of the status quo.

Trump, for better or worse, represents change.

Hillary will give the right leaning status quo crowd exactly what they need. They don't care about smaller government or lower taxes, that is just what they say to get elected or to get their guy elected.

It's the slow-moving, behemoth bureaucracy that keeps them safe and warm, even if they are temporarily out of power. Their livelihoods depend on their being seen as part of the right wing power structure.

With Trump, they are insignificant.

And God, there is nothing worse than being insignificant.

The Never Trumpers can live with anything besides actual change.

Posted by: jwest at May 25, 2016 04:44 PM (Zs4uk)

189 Besides, it's not as if Trump cares whether he wins or loses. He can make more money off a President Hillary Clinton than he can by being President Trump. Either way, he gets the ego stoking that is his sole motivation in life.

Posted by: stuiec at May 25, 2016 04:44 PM (eetvJ)

190 98
Trump would be a lot more palatable if he started arguing with more facts about how got to where we are instead of flinging poo.

--

A lot of people don't like Trump's campaign style but it's hard to argue with his results.
Mitt liked arguing facts. Fat lot of good that did him.
Trump is a salesman. He knows that every "buy" decision is an emotional one.

Posted by: @votermom at May 25, 2016 04:44 PM (7lVbc)

191 "Hillary will be horrible, but she won't destroy the country."
---
point of order: assumes facts not in evidence and ignores ones that are.

Posted by: redc1c4 at May 25, 2016 04:44 PM (8Y4jo)

192 158 Posted by: chique d'afrique, former Republican at May 25, 2016 04:41 PM (iLoHX)

I do not like Trump at all. I am a die hard Ted Cruz fan. Whatever Trump's foibles - and there are quite a few - he does not have a hate on for the USA, the country you have sought refuge in.

By allowing Hilary Clinton to win, you will have set in motion the final process by which the USA turns into the place you escaped from.

Voting Trump guarantees nothing. Allowing Hilary to win guarantees doom.

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at May 25, 2016 04:44 PM (p4UlV)

193 However, at the moment, he is the only plausible tool by which we can prevent President Hillary Clinton, and if that isn't enough to at least get you to bite your tongue or find some other interest (politics isn't especially interesting, you know; there are a thousand fields more interesting and rewarding), then you're not merely #NeverTrump, you're closer to #NeverReallyAConservative.
===========================================

I'm not sure I understand that very last part. Are you saying that if you stand outside this particular race, you're a #NeverReallyConservative?

Posted by: grammie winger at May 25, 2016 04:26 PM (dFi94)

That's what it sounds like, that having trouble supporting one big government authoritarian over another big government authoritarian means that you never believed in small government, individual freedom and the Constitution of the United States.

Posted by: Tyrconnell at May 25, 2016 04:44 PM (jeKFO)

194 >>Just a side note, she didn't abandon 4 Americans to die in Benghazi. She
abandoned about 30-40 Americans to die in Benghazi, maybe even more
than that.

Always a good point to bring up!!

While I wouldn't have expected her to know them from a person on the street, and therefore, I could somewhat see how these strangers would be considered expendable to HRH Clinton. However, she had to know Amb. Stevens to some degree, and it seems particularly cold-hearted for her to sacrifice someone like that to such an awful fate (a homosexual left to terrorists who hate homosexuals). Sorta like Vince Foster, etc. - there is no friend of the Clintons who is *not* expendable, which mean the entire country is expendable to that witch.

Posted by: Lizzy at May 25, 2016 04:44 PM (NOIQH)

195 But the choice is between Hillary Clinton -- a fucking psychopathic monster, liar, and caudilla-in-waiting -- and Donald Trump, a narcissistic buffoon.

Easy call.

Just put you ego to the side and remember this election isn't about your ego, it's about America and our shared future.

Posted by Ace at 04:16 PM

I knew you'd make it here, Ace.
Probably what gave you the insomnia was coming to grips with your choices and their ramifications.

And remember, at least with Trump as a president, we won't have to worry about a knob-gobbling press, or a Congress that won't do their part to stop Executive over-reach.
So it won't be all bad.
/fingers crossed

Posted by: OneEyedJack at May 25, 2016 04:44 PM (kKHcp)

196 Enough with the Trump is worse than Hillary... He's an ass, We can agree on that but He's "Our" ass.... yeah I know that sounds like surrender from Me and it is in a way but there is no way in Hell that I will see Hillary elected if I can help it....

Posted by: donna at May 25, 2016 04:44 PM (O2RFr)

197 Bottom line: economically the country is failing. The debt keeps getting higher. There is no plan to stop it.

Entitlements must be cut. Yes, that means Medicare and Social Security.

No-one wants to do that, but the right kind of ideologue could be hoped for at least making an effort to reform (i.e., a Rand Paul, maybe a Ted Cruz).

Trump says he will cut nothing.

What we need to do is repeal the New Deal. Instead, the Republicans are declaring that they like the New Deal very much, thank you. No laissez faire economic growth for us. Give us 1960s era democrat policies, please.

From this perspective, Hillary and Trump are two sides to the same coin. Boomers who will not acknowledge that their time is past, and who cling bitterly to their government entitlements will be the doom of us all.

I denounce myself.

Posted by: Revenant at May 25, 2016 04:44 PM (y64uP)

198 So, I'll pinch my nose and vote for Trump.

Posted by: Brown Line
----------

See 117, it's an interesting perspective

Posted by: Mike Hammer, etc., etc. at May 25, 2016 04:44 PM (9mTYi)

199 Off to run a couple of errands and let the thread eventually cool down.

Posted by: Jane D'oh at May 25, 2016 04:45 PM (1ZOkK)

200 >>>150
Also correct. It isn't about Republicans winning (who then won't hold to conservative principles), it's about conservativism.

Posted by: GWB at May 25, 2016 04:45 PM (YPK4q)

201 177 Hillary will be horrible, but she won't destroy the country.

Trump will remake the GOP in his image, which will destroy the country.
Posted by: 29Victor at May 25, 2016 04:43 PM (Koq2Z)

You forgot the /s sarc tag at the end of that gem.

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at May 25, 2016 04:45 PM (p4UlV)

202 164
At one time I read on here "Let it Burn"... well, it has burned.
Been burning pretty well. Now the same ones that said "Let it burn" are
telling me... "Okay boys... rally around the fire."

Being a subscriber to "Let it burn,...." I only invite you to rally around the fire to toast marshmallows and get warm.

Posted by: Our Country is Screwed - PROUD LGBT - Loves Guns, Beer and Tatas at May 25, 2016 04:45 PM (jxbfJ)

203 Dem pres with Repub Congress will be thwarted at every turn.

Jesus Fucking anti-Christ, did you just wake up from a multi-year slumber?

Posted by: Blano at May 25, 2016 04:45 PM (VNhbF)

204 It's as if people don't remember the GOP's near mystical ability to come up with the most rancid shit sandwich possible every four years?

Posted by: Zhytamyr at May 25, 2016 04:46 PM (91nzM)

205 >>> So again I must cast my vote "against" someone instead of "for" someone?

yes, because Rubio lost. Also, because reality usually involves choosing between two suboptimal choices, one of which is, despite being suboptimal, less bad than the other.

you're lucky to only be 19. If only I could be 19 again. Use your youth well.

Posted by: ace at May 25, 2016 04:46 PM (dciA+)

206

JWEST is Satan! Ignore him! He's just whacking it behind the curtain! Satan!

Posted by: Borrochonista Gay Muslims for Hitlery! at May 25, 2016 04:46 PM (KId5h)

207 A lot of people are saying that Trump is inevitable, and that he's going to whip Hillary hands-down in the general.

Fine.

If he's that inevitable, you don't need my vote for him to win. And when he betrays the conservatives - and he WILL betray the conservatives, as assuredly as Boehner and McConnell, only in a fresh, new way - I'll be laughing on the sidelines, saying you should have seen it coming before y'all nominated him.

Posted by: Qoheleth at May 25, 2016 04:46 PM (iIzG7)

208 I've decided I'm going to hit the booth in November after all. I've got a lot of check boxes I'll skip (looking at you, Martha Roby, you f***ing quisling quim) but the top one I'm becoming comfortable with.

If.

If what I expected at the convention doesn't materialize.

If the scorpion does, indeed, scorpion...then it's time to plan for the last box.

Posted by: Brother Cavil at May 25, 2016 04:46 PM (9krrF)

209 Here is something else.
Should Hillary win I would not be surprised if a few of your fellow morons will have been kiled before her first term is up.

Posted by: Tilikum KAW at May 25, 2016 04:46 PM (m3iiU)

210 I will not vote for an aspiring autocrat who knows literally nothing of the founding documents of our nation.

Posted by: Jason at May 25, 2016 04:40 PM (vuTYm)

President Hillary thanks you for your support.

Posted by: Cicero (@cicero) at May 25, 2016 04:46 PM (8ZskC)

211 This reminds me of the "Mitt Romney is what we've been dealt, let's just make the best of it" speeches I heard four years ago. The difference is this time, I might actually admit to myself Trump has a chance. Provided he does NOT let up on the Liberals and Hillary in particular, he needs to pound on her like she owes him money...

Posted by: Piere LaFoot at May 25, 2016 04:46 PM (aQQbl)

212
I'm done.

A post to be bookmarked for sure.

Later kids.

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at May 25, 2016 04:46 PM (p4UlV)

213 OT - on the bright side, Pocahontas Warren is having some sort of a melt down and it's all captured on twitter. As a senator, doesn't she have actual work to do or do senators spend all their time on social media these days?

Posted by: IC at May 25, 2016 04:46 PM (a0IVu)

214 Serious question:

Does #NeverTrump mean "I'm not voting for Trump, but I'm not voting for Hillary either, so I guess I'm writing in Batman or staying home."?

Or does it mean "I'm not voting Trump, and in my active opposition, this means I'm voting for Hillary."?

I'm not sure which of those two are true, and from my perspective, those two positions are not morally equivalent. I can respect the first one. I can't respect the second.

Posted by: joe, living dangerously at May 25, 2016 04:47 PM (KUaJL)

215 Hi chique. I was thinking of you the other day. This would be your first election since becoming a citizen, no? I wish we had something better to offer you. This election makes me sad. Just sad.

And I'm long past the point of caring what anyone thinks of how I vote.

Posted by: grammie winger at May 25, 2016 04:40 PM (dFi94)

Hi grammie! Yes, you are correct. What a sucky first election.

I really held out for a while, planning to vote for him even though I found him utterly odious after starting out liking him.

The trannie bathroom comments were the last straw for me. And he has just continued being awful since then.

He could have just acted like a halfway decent human being and I would have been willing. But I just can't do it.

Posted by: chique d'afrique, former Republican at May 25, 2016 04:47 PM (iLoHX)

216 Hillary's disqualifications do not give Trump a dispensation.

Trump can still be replaced and/or disqualified.

Posted by: Danube River Guide at May 25, 2016 04:47 PM (mcm0N)

217 >>>ottom line: economically the country is failing. The debt keeps getting higher. There is no plan to stop it.

Entitlements must be cut. Yes, that means Medicare and Social Security.

No-one wants to do that, but the right kind of ideologue could be hoped for at least making an effort to reform (i.e., a Rand Paul, maybe a Ted Cruz).

Trump says he will cut nothing.

...

so did Obama and so did Hillary. I agree this is a terrible position, but it is not a position by which to favor Hillary.

Posted by: ace at May 25, 2016 04:47 PM (dciA+)

218 Jwest,
"Why do the #NeverTrumpers persist?

Because they exist off of the status quo. "

Maybe some of them. But a lot of us really just cannot accept the thought of casting a vote for this lying, thieving, insult to conservatism, and are done with being told that we have to vote for whatever horrible candidate has an R after their name just because the other one might be worse. I think Trump will maintain the status quo- he's spent his whole life profiting off political power. I don't know why he will stop now.

Posted by: Matt from WY at May 25, 2016 04:47 PM (RSa+S)

219 I will enjoy him trolling Hillary, though.

Posted by: chique d'afrique, former Republican at May 25, 2016 04:47 PM (iLoHX)

220 You know it's funny...I don't have a lot of objections to Trump as he is. Outside of the obvious ones like narcissistic and clownish, I don't really give a shit about him personally. He's amusing and unintentionally hilarious.

Most of my Trumpian beefs and annoyances come from engaging with his overzealous, thuggish and occasionally racist supporters.

Not people I want to ally with or even pretend to work alongside. Or enable and encourage with a Trump victory.

Posted by: LOL Kabong at May 25, 2016 04:47 PM (MCmqp)

221 "President Hillary thanks you for your support."

That's nice...and I'm sure she does. But Trump has made clear that he does not want my vote. Why should I bother to give it to him under such considerations?

Posted by: Jason at May 25, 2016 04:48 PM (vuTYm)

222 216 Trump can still be replaced and/or disqualified.
Posted by: Danube River Guide at May 25, 2016 04:47 PM (mcm0N)

Please to enlighten us.

(this ought'a be good)

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at May 25, 2016 04:48 PM (p4UlV)

223 I wonder, do they offer yoga classes in the women's federal penitentiary?

Posted by: Fritz at May 25, 2016 04:48 PM (UzPAd)

224
NR boxed themselves into a corner (npi) with their petulant "Contra Trump" issue and now they're honor-bound to make themselves seem even smaller.
Posted by: Caliban

NR, Red State and the like have lashed themselves to the mast and would prefer to go down with the GOPe ship.

Posted by: Laurie David's Cervix at May 25, 2016 04:48 PM (kdS6q)

225 221 "President Hillary thanks you for your support."

That's nice...and I'm sure she does. But Trump has made clear that he does not want my vote. Why should I bother to give it to him under such considerations?
Posted by: Jason at May 25, 2016 04:48 PM (vuTYm)

Another one who just reads the comments, I see.

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at May 25, 2016 04:49 PM (p4UlV)

226 But a lot of us really just cannot accept the thought of casting a vote for this lying, thieving, insult to conservatism,

2008, 2010, 2012, and 2014 say hi.

Posted by: Brother Cavil at May 25, 2016 04:49 PM (9krrF)

227 I am becoming more and more convinced that come November, HRC won't be on the ballot. It looks like death from a thousand cuts as different stories come out about her sordid past and present. A usually compliant MFM is publishing these stories and giving them top billing.

Perhaps this is just wish-casting on my part but those in the horde who predicted that Obama would sabotage her just may be right!

Posted by: Cheri at May 25, 2016 04:49 PM (oiNtH)

228 WZ : Trump Protesters Go Achille Lauro

Posted by: garrett at May 25, 2016 04:49 PM (NvC7m)

229 I don't like Trump, but Hillary will be the killing blow to this country.

My sole reason for voting this November will be to deny her what she craves.

Posted by: BeckoningChasm at May 25, 2016 04:49 PM (AroJD)

230 219 I will enjoy him trolling Hillary, though.
Posted by: chique d'afrique, former Republican at May 25, 2016 04:47 PM (iLoHX)

In Soviet Americlintona, Hilary troll YOU!

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at May 25, 2016 04:49 PM (p4UlV)

231 If only I could be 19 again. Use your youth well.
Posted by: ace
------

*gazes remorsefully at my squandered youth*

Posted by: Mike Hammer, etc., etc. at May 25, 2016 04:50 PM (9mTYi)

232 "That's the point of #NeverTrump. It has nothing to do with Hillary and everything to do with the future of Conservativism."

Conservatism is dead as a movement. It's divided and lacks any coherence.

So-called conservatives just engage in ongoing "No true Scotsman" solipsistic arguments.

So-called Fiscal Conservatives like Paul Ryan are really for Big Business / Chamber of Commerce / Free Trade / Open Borders, now aligned with elements of Big Gov and increasingly with the Cultural Left.

NeoCons failed with Iraq, compounded by the mistakes of Obama/Hillary -- hence our isolationist bent. Energy Independence is a game changer.

SoCons priorities have shifted. They're now worried about getting driven from the public square.

"Constitutional Conservatism" is irrelevant to how you actually govern, except for how pick judges.

Posted by: Ignoramus at May 25, 2016 04:50 PM (r1fLd)

233 Also, Ace, what is up with the nasty personal attacks in this post? Didn't you make a big show of banning such things not long ago? For anyone who reconizes, as you do, Trump's many deep flaws, the question of whether or not to support him over the dreadful Hillary is likely difficult, and I bear no ill-will toward those who reluctantly endorse Trump, even if I will not. I wish you would extend the same charity toward us, instead of attacking us so viciously.

Posted by: Anachronism at May 25, 2016 04:50 PM (48ffF)

234 Maybe People really are mad as hell and they're not gonna take it anymore.... Thus.... Trump...

Posted by: donna at May 25, 2016 04:50 PM (O2RFr)

235

#NeverTrump = #HillaryHump

Do you want a Silly Straw to suck the santorum out of our ass, or will you just go lips to brown starfish?

Posted by: Borrochonista Gay Muslims for Hitlery! at May 25, 2016 04:50 PM (KId5h)

236 By an accident of history and geography, my vote this November is *utterly* irrelevant. I could vote for Mickey Mouse and it wouldn't make a difference.

So I have been spared the decision of whether I have to vote for the football-fucking monkey to stop the football-stabbing monkey or the football-chewing monkey.

It is, of course, amusing in a sad way to see a crowd that *screamed* about demands that they vote for an unacceptable compromise candidate now demanding everyone else do so. You were right the first time, guys.

I thought for a moment about going through some of the reasoning, but it would be pointless.

Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of the Sith at May 25, 2016 04:50 PM (wB8Tg)

237 I became a Republican because not because I hated the left but because I actually believe in certain things. That's why I'm out. I do hate the left but that's not enough for me to support the other party, especially when their nominee is an actual liberal.

I hate the left for a reason, not just for their party label.

Posted by: chique d'afrique, former Republican at May 25, 2016 04:50 PM (iLoHX)

238 With Trump, they are insignificant.

And God, there is nothing worse than being insignificant.

The Never Trumpers can live with anything besides actual change.

Posted by: jwest at May 25, 2016 04:44 PM (Zs4uk)

They would only be insignificant if they resisted him. They will benefit if they work with him. Thats the game he knows so well. The people will still be the ones getting fucked and paying for it.

Posted by: Mimzey at May 25, 2016 04:50 PM (aRUb8)

239 164 So again I must cast my vote "against" someone instead of "for" someone?
Once again I am to compromise my principles and vote for someone I have no confidence in, don't have any trust in, who I find repulsive, because the devil I know is worse than the devil i do not know?

Yes, because we live in a sucky, sinful world where there plenty of black hats, but few white hats, and none in politics, so you've got to figure out which shade of gray might be the best.

Yes, I know it sucks. But that's the way it is.

Posted by: Hugh Hewitt at May 25, 2016 04:51 PM (N1Wpo)

240
My sole reason for voting this November will be to deny her what she craves.

The blood of virgins? It has electrolytes.

Posted by: Colorado Alex at May 25, 2016 04:51 PM (LUG6K)

241 234 Maybe People really are mad as hell and they're not gonna take it anymore.... Thus.... Trump...
Posted by: donna at May 25, 2016 04:50 PM (O2RFr)

If he only had a scintilla of knowledge about the issues, his big mouth would be one powerful weapon.

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at May 25, 2016 04:51 PM (p4UlV)

242 The only thing more repulsive than Donald Trump is a Donald Trump supporter.

The only thing more repulsive than a Donald Trump supporter is Hillary Clinton as president.

Ace's shame and need to justify his becoming a Donald Trump supporter doesn't prevent him from embracing all of their counter-productive schtick. "If you won't support Trump, you're not a Conservative!" Bunch of crap, frankly. You should vote for Trump, but not because to do otherwise would make you un-conservative. You should vote for him because, of two bad choices, Trump is the gremlin bad choice, while Hillary is the godzilla bad choice. Same point Ace made, but without trying to invalidate never-Trumpers. There's nobody more self-righteous than a sinner, reformed.

Posted by: Immolate at May 25, 2016 04:51 PM (R1oMt)

243 Welcome to the last stage Ace.

I learned in 2004 that a strongly flavored sauce makes the shit sandwich go down a little easier.

Posted by: Ms Choksondik at May 25, 2016 04:51 PM (7tn/S)

244 If he only had a scintilla of knowledge about the issues, his big mouth would be one powerful weapon.

Completely agree...

Posted by: donna at May 25, 2016 04:51 PM (O2RFr)

245 ( *applies liberal does of Sock-B-Gon to self* )

Posted by: OregonMuse at May 25, 2016 04:52 PM (N1Wpo)

246 231 If only I could be 19 again. Use your youth well.
Posted by: ace
------

*gazes remorsefully at my squandered youth*
Posted by: Mike Hammer, etc., etc. at May 25, 2016 04:50 PM (9mTYi)

Tell me about it. What I wouldn't give for a do-over. Not just my youth, the whole damn thing.

Posted by: Insomniac at May 25, 2016 04:52 PM (0mRoj)

247 My sole reason for voting this November will be to deny her what she craves.

The blood of virgins? It has electrolytes.
Posted by: Colorado Alex at May 25, 2016 04:51 PM (LUG6K)

Gin? Huma Abadin? Children's tears?

Posted by: joe, living dangerously at May 25, 2016 04:52 PM (KUaJL)

248 As Steve Deace says, this is an election between Hillary and her donor. No thanks.

Posted by: chique d'afrique, former Republican at May 25, 2016 04:52 PM (iLoHX)

249 ok, let me repeat myself. Hillery becomes Pres and gets a fifth progressive one the Sup Ct:
-restrictions on free speech and campaign spending to keep corrupting influences out of elections will be held constitutional.
-the right to keep and bear arms will be interpreted to mean "while serving in an official state militia".
-Bring back the fairness doctrine.
-Carbon tax.
-millions of new citizens who will never vote for anyone who's to the right of Lincoln Chafee

gotta work (I mean me.) I don't know why people presume the worst about Trump when we can already reasonably believe the worst about Hillery.

Posted by: mallflower at May 25, 2016 04:52 PM (qSIlh)

250 Vote Hillary,vote third party,don't vote at all.Just don't condescend to those of us who are taking a different direction.

Posted by: steevy at May 25, 2016 04:52 PM (B48dK)

251 Hillary is in it until the finish. If there is anything she learned from Bill, it is how to hunker down no matter what. The Donks can't toss her without a viable option (NOT Bernie, get real), plus they know her claws come out if they try to deny her.

Trump is loud, boorish, and at least 50% full of shit. But that's 49.9% less than Hillary minus the paranoia and scary ambition plus he's ten times more likely to shit all over climate change, bathrooms & trannies, SJWs, gun control nuts, and freeloaders.

Pop the popcorn and buckle your seatbelts!

Posted by: Banana Splits Guy at May 25, 2016 04:52 PM (ftx9F)

252 It's the difference between playing Russian Roulette with a revolver or a pistol.
Spin the cylinder, or rack the slide.
Step right up!

Posted by: Roland THTG at May 25, 2016 04:52 PM (QM5S2)

253 Our Republic is a car run off a cliff. Airborne, floating through the mountain mist towards it's inevitable, violent dance with a sequoia.

Trump is a set of worn out brakes on our car.

Hillary is that same set of worn out brakes with a cut brake line.

Choose wisely.

Posted by: AlaBAMA at May 25, 2016 04:52 PM (pUDQf)

254 232 "Constitutional Conservatism" is irrelevant to how you actually govern, except for how pick judges.
Posted by: Ignoramus at May 25, 2016 04:50 PM (r1fLd)

A) conservatism isn't a movement; it's a way of life.
B) since judges are the rubber stamp for tyranny, it's THE crucial issue this November.

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at May 25, 2016 04:53 PM (p4UlV)

255 NeverTrump for me was a honest appraisal of who Trump is. You say I'm virtue-signaling my lib friends? Well, at night I have to lie in bed and come to terms with each of my actions during that day. I could never vote for Hillary, but knowing what I know about Trump- varnish and BS and hero worship stripped away- how has anything in his life given any credence to the idea that he'll keep any promise or do anything that benefits anyone other than himself? You all are welcome to trust him, but I don't, and that's because nothing he's done shows he's worthy of trust.

I'll say this: people voting for Trump, even if they've decided to do it because they can't stomach Hillary, aren't the arbiters of what conservatism is, unless the sole definition of conservatism is defeating democrats, and I thought we used to believe it had a wider definition than that. It's the task of the Republican party to defeat Hillary. Maybe there aren't enough actual conservatives in America to win national elections any more, but I'd still rather be a conservative than a Republican.

Posted by: Cody's Feed Bag at May 25, 2016 04:53 PM (XiVKO)

256 Trump picks Bernie Sanders as VP and wins in a landslide.

Posted by: DGP at May 25, 2016 04:53 PM (PJyt4)

257 250 Vote Hillary,vote third party,don't vote at all.Just don't condescend to those of us who are taking a different direction.
Posted by: steely at May 25, 2016 04:52 PM (B48dK)

---

*golfclap*

Posted by: SMFH while circling the drain... at May 25, 2016 04:53 PM (rlfds)

258 I wonder, do they offer yoga classes in the women's federal penitentiary?
Posted by: Fritz
----

I shall henceforth refer to Hillary as Downward Facing Dog.

Posted by: Mike Hammer, etc., etc. at May 25, 2016 04:53 PM (9mTYi)

259

Title of my autobiography:

"A Good Life, Wasted"

Posted by: In Vino Veritits at May 25, 2016 04:53 PM (KId5h)

260 Where have you gone Augusto Pinochet?
A nation turns its blackened eyes to you
Posted by: Insomniac at May 25, 2016 04:38 PM (Ydc14)

Did you graduate from the Joe Biden School of Plagiarism?!

-
Lyin' Joe has left and gone away.
Hey hey hey

Posted by: Anonosaurus Wrecks at May 25, 2016 04:53 PM (Nwg0u)

261 By allowing Hilary Clinton to win, you will have set
in motion the final process by which the USA turns into the place you
escaped from.

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at May 25, 2016 04:44 PM (p4UlV)
============================================

I love you, J.J. as you are as close to a New York Jewish Wisconsinite as anyone on the blog. But this argument drives me batty. You are putting the fate of the republic squarely on one voter. That simply isn't true. For instance, if you are in a deep blue state, your vote has practically nil impact. Same for red states. It's only in swing states that an individual vote comes into play. And even then, only if that state's vote totals are dead even at the end of the night.

I just feel it's unfair to shame someone into voting for someone who very well might be against their conscience. One vote is not going to doom the country. It's just not.

Posted by: grammie winger at May 25, 2016 04:53 PM (dFi94)

262 Listen folks, the King of England is a corrupt tyrant imposing laws that should not be tolerated by any man. We could revolt but that would be bloody and messy and we'd have to figure our what to do next our own.

On the other hand, we could offer ourselves to France and become their colony. I mean, we know that both are monarchies lead but corrupt, inbred dictators that rely on maintaining an illusion of power to support their false system and way of life, but the French said they wouldn't tax, tea and would kick out all the English until they got in line to come back in an orderly fashion to work in the new French hotels. Speaking of which, have you SEEN French hotels? Talk about luxurious!

Posted by: Damian at May 25, 2016 04:53 PM (71OEY)

263 222 216 Trump can still be replaced and/or disqualified.
Posted by: Danube River Guide at May 25, 2016 04:47 PM (mcm0N)

Please to enlighten us.

(this ought'a be good)

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at May 25, 2016 04:48 PM (p4UlV)

*******

Do you think the timing of this report--which is still controlled by State might have something to do with the Democrats trying to pre-empt the FBI investigation--and get rid of Hillary in a timely fashion--so that they can win the Executive?

Posted by: Danube River Guide at May 25, 2016 04:53 PM (mcm0N)

264 If Trump's actual life is to be any guide, he's likely to do whatever makes him the most money and strokes his ego the most. Dismantling any part of the liberal state, reducing the power of the government in any way, does not typically support that aim.

Posted by: Matt from WY at May 25, 2016 04:53 PM (RSa+S)

265 Do you guys actually want Hillary Clinton in office, as Ben Howe, possibly just being baiting and trollish, said a few weeks back?

Have you asked Rich Lowry this on Twitter?

Posted by: OregonMuse at May 25, 2016 04:54 PM (N1Wpo)

266 Still #nevertrump for my personal self (although it's more accurate to say I was an am #almostnevertrump). But I want him to win. I just won't aid him with a vote or money.

Posted by: Masturbatin' Pete at May 25, 2016 04:54 PM (xN1DB)

267 You make a reasonable argument, Ace.

But these are not reasonable times.

Posted by: Sweet Lou at May 25, 2016 04:54 PM (a2ykg)

268 248 As Steve Deace says, this is an election between Hillary and her donor. No thanks.
Posted by: chique d'afrique, former Republican at May 25, 2016 04:52 PM (iLoHX)

You're a smart person, so it saddens me to think you did not comprehend Ace's post and the situation the nation is in.

Oh well.

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at May 25, 2016 04:54 PM (p4UlV)

269 I have never been on the LIB train.
However, due to entropy I suspect it will burn no matter what.
With that said, I will try to keep it from burning a certain way at least.
Many good and innocent people will hurt.

Posted by: Tilikum KAW at May 25, 2016 04:54 PM (+aCe4)

270 OT - on the bright side, Pocahontas Warren is having some sort of a melt down and it's all captured on twitter. As a senator, doesn't she have actual work to do or do senators spend all their time on social media these days?

Posted by: IC at

The Trump campaign is trolling and baiting her and it is driving her nuts. I appreciate it when a lying, liberal loon stays on social media and away from their "work".

Posted by: Cheri at May 25, 2016 04:54 PM (oiNtH)

271 I for one Ace am really happy to see to you using logic and common sense in dipping your toe into the Trump pool.

I was worried that you were off with Rich Lowery plotting with one of Hillary's rabid supporters against Trump.

Posted by: Drider at May 25, 2016 04:55 PM (6Xbsz)

272 263 Do you think the timing of this report--which is still controlled by State might have something to do with the Democrats trying to pre-empt the FBI investigation--and get rid of Hillary in a timely fashion--so that they can win the Executive?
Posted by: Danube River Guide at May 25, 2016 04:53 PM (mcm0N)

How does this remove Trump from the GOP ticket?

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at May 25, 2016 04:55 PM (p4UlV)

273
This is why I'm getting out of politics in favor of birdwatching, frankly. I just need time to cut the cord.

Yeah, that'll fix everything.

Posted by: Bertram Cabot Jr. at May 25, 2016 04:55 PM (k4M/B)

274 >>So again I must cast my vote "against" someone instead of "for" someone?

Maybe this will help you with voting against someone.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GjYLWadz5Yc

Posted by: Lizzy at May 25, 2016 04:55 PM (NOIQH)

275 Two comments:

1.) The thing about Trump is to elect him, then turn on him.

2.) I don't know how Trump polls against Biden, so electing him might be an issue.

Posted by: Random Guy at May 25, 2016 04:55 PM (J3UIw)

276 "Another one who just reads the comments, I see."

I said in my original post that I NEVER read comments on here. No idea what you're talking about.

Posted by: Jason at May 25, 2016 04:56 PM (vuTYm)

277 Never take just the first lifeboat that comes along. Wait for the one with the coffeemaker and free wi-fi!

Posted by: Stuff Confucius Probably Would Have Said If He Had Thought Of It, vol. 3 at May 25, 2016 04:56 PM (8ZskC)

278 SO for those of you who won't vote for him, do you think the country will be better off in 4 years after a Hillary presidency than it would have been after a Trump presidency, or do you not care?

Posted by: exhelodrvr at May 25, 2016 04:56 PM (Rug2j)

279 NR, Red State and the like have lashed themselves to the mast and would prefer to go down with the GOPe ship.
Posted by: Laurie David's Cervix at May 25, 2016 04:48 PM (kdS6q)

In case you missed it the GOPe is getting on board the Trump train.

Posted by: chique d'afrique, former Republican at May 25, 2016 04:56 PM (iLoHX)

280 "I think Trump will maintain the status quo- he's spent his whole life profiting off political power. I don't know why he will stop now."

Posted by: Matt from WY at May 25, 2016 04:47 PM (RSa+S)

If Trump could put his ego in check, he could maintain the status quo.

I don't believe he can do that.

Trump needs to be admired. He needs to show the country he's the world's greatest businessman/negotiator/builder/etc.

He'll build a wall so fast it will make your head spin. Under budget.

He will change the way the federal career employees are protected from firing. Just to facilitate the other easy, common sense changes that will get Trump a spot on Mt. Rushmore.

If you think about it, there are so many simplistic changes that can be made that would make a president a hero that it's ridiculous. Trump won't be able to help himself. His ego will make him do good.

Posted by: jwest at May 25, 2016 04:56 PM (Zs4uk)

281 I here Jen "Severely CON-servstive" Rubin is pushing for Ben Sasse to throw his hat into the ring.

Posted by: Kreplach at May 25, 2016 04:56 PM (Melsq)

282 So I have to ask: At this point, what is the point of the #NeverTrump impulse

To disassociate with Trump's most vocal cheerleaders: The Alt-Right.

Posted by: The Political Hat at May 25, 2016 04:57 PM (Z8xbi)

283 This is just too good. Asian Porn Starlet, Tila Tequila, identifies as white supremacist, claims she was injected with Hitler's sperm. Supports the Bern.

News in full over yonder t' Weazelzippers.

Posted by: Sticky Wicket at May 25, 2016 04:57 PM (On3bk)

284 Haven't read any comments, but ace's header sounds familiar.

*Hold your nose and vote for McCain, I mean Mitt, oh wait it's Trump this time.*

I'm not missing my chance to vote against Hillary, and I'm not wasting my vote by going third party.

.

Posted by: Meremortal, Someone's French sucks at May 25, 2016 04:57 PM (3myMJ)

285 Is this out on video yet ?

Posted by: The Jackhole somewhere on Ventura Highway at May 25, 2016 04:57 PM (dULJN)

286 I have never been on the LIB train.
However, due to entropy I suspect it will burn no matter what.
With that said, I will try to keep it from burning a certain way at least.
Many good and innocent people will hurt.

If it doesn't burn, many good and innocent people are still gonna get hurt.

Posted by: rickb223 at May 25, 2016 04:57 PM (EdhH3)

287 Just put you ego to the side and remember this election isn't about your ego, it's about America and our shared future.

Posted by: Ace at 04:16 PM

Welcome to the party, Pal.

Posted by: ALH at May 25, 2016 04:57 PM (B7Ii2)

288 One thing Trump has going for him is he can be impeached much easier than DIsasterpants (or any Dem for that matter).

TAKE THAT NEVER TRUMPERS!

Screw the Dems.

Posted by: Minuteman at May 25, 2016 04:57 PM (A3b6q)

289 "You are putting the fate of the republic squarely on one voter. That simply isn't true. For instance, if you are in a deep blue state, your vote has practically nil impact. Same for red states. It's only in swing states that an individual vote comes into play. And even then, only if that state's vote totals are dead even at the end of the night.

I just feel it's unfair to shame someone into voting for someone who very well might be against their conscience. One vote is not going to doom the country. It's just not."

This is what I mean about the false-binary, shouty, world-is-ending arguments. It's the only way things are discussed now, and every argument has to be as short and simple as possible, so we can sort people in to one of the two possible boxes and either mob up with them, or start pointing and shouting.

I should have seen this happening years ago but I didn't. FWIW I'm out of the Republican party so you're welcome to organize it under whatever principles you want.

Posted by: SparcVark at May 25, 2016 04:58 PM (nKOXj)

290 Just put you ego to the side and remember this election isn't about your ego, it's about America and our shared future.

Let me sum up:

Since 1992, at the very least, those of us on the more conservative side have been told to sit down, shut up and vote for the Republican candidate Because Democrats and Because Electability along with a sneering side of condescension about how you just are too childish to get how this game is played and don't make the perfect the enemy of the good.

Well. HOW DOES THAT FUCKING SHIT TASTE YOU PATHETIC LYING PIECES OF AMBERGIS?

Oh. I'm sorry, I shouldn't make the ambergis comparison because ambergis is valuable and useful.

I. Fucking. Told. You. So.

I fucking told you that the day would come when it was your turn to sit the fuck down and shut the fuck up and bend over and take it Because Democrats and all the insipid bullshit that was hurled at me for decades.

See, I have the lovely intellectual consistency of having always said that a vote is never owed but earned. Those on the other side? OMFG IF YOU DON'T VOTE R YOU VOTE D HOW CAN YOU DO THAT!!!! YOU OWE REPUBLICANS YOUR VOTE!!!!

Eat it. Eat every single morsel of fecal infused crow.

No, Trump isn't so awful that all your prior statements are conveniently nullified. Truth outs and the truth is that when the shoe is on the other foot well that's not cricket. The truth is that you didn't really mean it, now did you? You just meant it to the extent that your candidate and your side and your team won. It was a stance, not a position. It was a convenient manner to show your supposed intellectual and moral superiority.

Fuck that position and those advancing it in particular.

You want to be all but I can't vote for Trump because he's awful? No problem. You want to be but I can't vote for Trump because he's awful but all that prior stuff I said about how not voting means you're complicit in electing Democrats no longer is operative?

Yeah. No.

By the by, this is me being the better person about this.

Posted by: alexthechick- Darth Sugartits at May 25, 2016 04:58 PM (mf5HN)

291 jwest,
I hope you're right. I would love to be wrong about this. Nonetheless, Trump has given me no reason to believe he can be trusted. Therefore he does not get my vote.

Posted by: Matt from WY at May 25, 2016 04:58 PM (RSa+S)

292

How about voting Libertarian?

Posted by: A CompSci Major, Who Sells His His Extra Adderall Pills on Craigslist

Posted by: Laurie David's Cervix at May 25, 2016 04:58 PM (kdS6q)

293 SO for those of you who won't vote for him, do you think the country will be better off in 4 years after a Hillary presidency than it would have been after a Trump presidency, or do you not care?
Posted by: exhelodrvr at May 25, 2016 04:56 PM (Rug2j)

Many of them will come up with juvenile rationals and talk about their principals in a futile attempt at intellectual masturbation. Not that I have an opinion or anything?

Posted by: Nevergiveup at May 25, 2016 04:58 PM (Ozsfq)

294 Geez. The walls of words.

Posted by: Soona at May 25, 2016 04:58 PM (Fmupd)

295 >>>281 I here Jen "Severely CON-servstive" Rubin is pushing for Ben Sasse to throw his hat into the ring.

Yeah and there were about 5 'PLEASE SAVE US MITT ROMNEY AND RUN FOR PRESIDENT!' articles from the NeverTrump crowd this past week. Erickson, Jay Cost and Wilson were the main three pushing that.

Posted by: LOL Kabong at May 25, 2016 04:58 PM (MCmqp)

296 >>Trump is a set of worn out brakes on our car.

Trump is a set of worn out meth heads driving our Trans Am too fast through the trailer park with Freebird turned up to 11 and a dog-shooting crossbow on the dashboard and a bottle of Ten High washing down the tooth-rot.

Rock on, humans.

Posted by: General Zod at May 25, 2016 04:58 PM (Bdeb0)

297 Nah, can't do it. I'll vote Libertarian

Posted by: CLARENCEWHORLEY at May 25, 2016 04:58 PM (K5tmh)

298 "This is just too good. Asian Porn Starlet, Tila Tequila, identifies as
white supremacist, claims she was injected with Hitler's sperm. Supports
the Bern."

Clearly, a not-insignificant minority of testosterone-fueled Americans have never learned that dictum about what not to do with crazy.

Posted by: Qoheleth at May 25, 2016 04:59 PM (iIzG7)

299 you're lucky to only be 19. If only I could be 19 again.

Posted by: ace at May 25, 2016 04:46 PM (dciA+)

===========
Seriously? All those lonely nights with just you and your hand? The acne? The all nite D&D games??

Posted by: Bruce With a Wang! at May 25, 2016 04:59 PM (iQIUe)

300
Posted by: Danube River Guide at May 25, 2016 04:53 PM (mcm0N)

How does this remove Trump from the GOP ticket?

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at May 25, 2016 04:55 PM (p4UlV)

*********

Answer the question.

Posted by: Danube River Guide at May 25, 2016 04:59 PM (mcm0N)

301 >>>282 To disassociate with Trump's most vocal cheerleaders: The Alt-Right.

Yep.

Posted by: LOL Kabong at May 25, 2016 04:59 PM (MCmqp)

302 Let me sum up:

Since ~~1992~~ 1988, at the very least, those of us on the more conservative side have been told to sit down, shut up and vote for the Republican candidate Because Democrats and Because Electability along with a sneering side of condescension about how you just are too childish to get how this game is played and don't make the perfect the enemy of the good.

FIFY

Posted by: rickb223 at May 25, 2016 05:00 PM (EdhH3)

303 What movie was this for?

Posted by: Sponge at May 25, 2016 05:00 PM (xttKs)

304
NR, Red State and the like have lashed themselves to the mast and would prefer to go down with the GOPe ship.

Posted by: Laurie David's Cervix at May 25, 2016 04:48 PM (kdS6q)

Trump is texting buddies with John Boehner, who called the most genuinely conservative candidate in the race "Satan". Boehner and McConnell LOVE Trump. Does being his ally somehow make them less GOPe than NR?

Posted by: Cody's Feed Bag at May 25, 2016 05:00 PM (XiVKO)

305 If you've read the Foundation series, Trump is The Mule.
That's how he's the possible way out of the socialist dung ball rolling downhill into a volcano' s caldera.

Or as another metaphor, do you know why people panic? Because in some situations it is a valid survival strategy. That's where we're at.

Posted by: @votermom at May 25, 2016 05:00 PM (7lVbc)

306 Some jack ass is bring up the "alt-right" again?

Reminds me of the grassy knoll

Posted by: Nevergiveup at May 25, 2016 05:00 PM (Ozsfq)

307 Encore. Now let's eviscerate the Kristols and Bushes of the world who will certainly vote for Hillary.

Posted by: Valiant at May 25, 2016 05:00 PM (3MiF8)

308 You want to be all but I can't vote for Trump because he's awful? No problem. You want to be but I can't vote for Trump because he's awful but all that prior stuff I said about how not voting means you're complicit in electing Democrats no longer is operative?

Yeah. No.

By the by, this is me being the better person about this.

Posted by: alexthechick- Darth Sugartits at May 25, 2016 04:58 PM (mf5HN)

I've voted 3rd party before, and will do so again.

My vote won't be the deciding vote for President by a long shot, so I have zero moral qualms about voting 3rd party or "None of these candidates".

Posted by: The Political Hat at May 25, 2016 05:01 PM (Z8xbi)

309 SO for those of you who won't vote for him, do you think the country will be better off in 4 years after a Hillary presidency than it would have been after a Trump presidency, or do you not care?
Posted by: exhelodrvr at May 25, 2016 04:56 PM (Rug2j)

Many of them will come up with juvenile rationals and talk about their principals in a futile attempt at intellectual masturbation. Not that I have an opinion or anything?
Posted by: Nevergiveup at May 25, 2016 04:58 PM (Ozsfq)

Some people actually do have principles, and act by them.

Posted by: Matt from WY at May 25, 2016 05:01 PM (RSa+S)

310 For those of you that will not vote for anyone come November I understand. I was a never Trump person and felt really upset when I realized that he would be the nominee. I was insulted when people would say "get over it" and support Trump. My human response was "Fuck you and don't tell me to get over it!".

I will vote for Trump as I think that Trump while not a conservative is a pragmatist. I believe that he will enlist mostly smart people to advise him. I believe that he loves this country.

There was a lot of acrimony on this blog when there was more than one candidate and I really don't want that to happen again.

Posted by: Cheri at May 25, 2016 05:01 PM (oiNtH)

311 Seriously? All those lonely nights with just you and your hand? The acne? The all nite D&D games??

There's the Internet and jizzhut dot com now, where there wasn't shit in '81.

Posted by: rickb223 at May 25, 2016 05:01 PM (EdhH3)

312 Posted by: alexthechick- Darth Sugartits at May 25, 2016 04:58 PM (mf5HN)

*leaps from chair, applauds vigorously*

Posted by: Cicero (@cicero) at May 25, 2016 05:01 PM (8ZskC)

313 291 jwest,
I hope you're right. I would love to be wrong about this. Nonetheless, Trump has given me no reason to believe he can be trusted. Therefore he does not get my vote.
Posted by: Matt from WY at May 25, 2016 04:58 PM (RSa+S)

----------------

You want a politician you can trust? May I tell you where your logic has gone far astray?

Posted by: Soona at May 25, 2016 05:01 PM (Fmupd)

314 The headquarters has it's share of ardent Nevertrumpers, I see. Or as they're more accurately referred to as, Hillary Clinton cheer leaders.

Posted by: Sticky Wicket at May 25, 2016 05:01 PM (On3bk)

315 How about voting Libertarian?

Posted by: A CompSci Major, Who Sells His His Extra Adderall Pills on Craigslist

Feel The Johnson!

Posted by: josephistan at May 25, 2016 05:01 PM (7HtZB)

316 For those interested, I think this is what happened with the Trump nomination:

https://thebuckleyclub.com/the-great-populist-escape-57e82aeba891#.22t3mur31

I'm a conservative (still), not a populist. So no Trump for me.

Posted by: SparcVark at May 25, 2016 05:01 PM (nKOXj)

317
"This is just too good. Asian Porn Starlet, Tila Tequila, identifies as white supremacist, claims she was injected with Hitler's sperm. Supports the Bern."

========
Thank God! I thought earlier she was a Trump supporter. She is mentally ill and I do wonder who is taking care of her kid.

Posted by: Bruce With a Wang! at May 25, 2016 05:01 PM (iQIUe)

318 278
SO for those of you who won't vote for him, do you think the country
will be better off in 4 years after a Hillary presidency than it would
have been after a Trump presidency, or do you not care?

Posted by: exhelodrvr at May 25, 2016 04:56 PM (Rug2j)
Honestly? I don't think it will be any measurably better after 4 years of Trump than it would be after 4 years of Hillary.

Posted by: chemjeff at May 25, 2016 05:01 PM (uAvJJ)

319 Hey, there is always the chance Trump could be a good president.

I didn't say a GOOD chance

Posted by: The Jackhole somewhere on Ventura Highway at May 25, 2016 05:02 PM (dULJN)

320 You're a smart person, so it saddens me to think you did not comprehend Ace's post and the situation the nation is in.

Oh well.
Posted by: J.J. Sefton at May 25, 2016 04:54 PM (p4UlV)

Oh, I know the country is in dire straits. It's basically a Banana Republic living off the fumes of previous greatness. And frankly, I do not expect Trump to do anything about the Banana Republic status.

I held out for a long time and did not come to my decision lightly.

Instead of targeting me and others like me for not getting on the tram train, why don't people instead try to get Trump to do things that will earn our votes?

Posted by: chique d'afrique, former Republican at May 25, 2016 05:02 PM (iLoHX)

321 forget it ace. it's Vizzinitown.

Posted by: x at May 25, 2016 05:02 PM (nFwvY)

322 This is what I mean about the false-binary, shouty, world-is-ending arguments. It's the only way things are discussed now, and every argument has to be as short and simple as possible, so we can sort people in to one of the two possible boxes and either mob up with them, or start pointing and shouting.

Posted by: SparcVark at May 25, 2016 04:58 PM (nKOXj)

Tribalism gives people what they crave - right up until it destroys them.

"Reverting to the norm" is, I think, the expression.

Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of the Sith at May 25, 2016 05:02 PM (wB8Tg)

323 There was a lot of acrimony on this blog when there was more than one candidate and I really don't want that to happen again.

Too late...

Posted by: donna at May 25, 2016 05:02 PM (O2RFr)

324 I've resigned myself to voting for him, but I can't with any sincerity try to sell him to others. And in cases when he comes up, just immediately shifting the convo to how horrible Hillary is exposes me as the dodger I'm being. So, a quiet election season for me, for once.

Posted by: Lincolntf at May 25, 2016 05:02 PM (2cS/G)

325 Has anyone figured out (if true) why Bill Clinton encouraged Trump to run?

Posted by: Mimzey at May 25, 2016 05:02 PM (aRUb8)

326 287 Just put you ego to the side and remember this election isn't about your ego, it's about America and our shared future.

Posted by: Ace at 04:16 PM

Yeah, it's about principles. As WOPR said in War Games, sometimes the best move is not to play. It's an untenable choice in the best of times. But this is the worst of times and neither of these two idiots will stop our national debt problem, fix SS, stop the SJW movement, clean the commie-lite party out of the Dept of (insert) or fix our healthcare issue. We're at the most divisive time our country has had since the Civil War and both candidates are lit matches for the tinder.

Ego is the least of concerns right now.

Posted by: AlaBAMA at May 25, 2016 05:02 PM (pUDQf)

327 This is all really fucking depressing...

Posted by: Insomniac at May 25, 2016 05:02 PM (0mRoj)

328 I'll tell you the EXACT time that the #NeverTrumpers should have gone "radio silent":

15MAR2016

That's when Trump won the FL primary, and really became the clear front-runner (I might even say "likely nominee"). People entertaining the idea that he wasn't after THAT were working off of various conspiracy theories and outright denial.

It's literally insane for a party to allow some sort of movement to undermine their most likely nominee. Sure, you can still take jabs, or argue that another guy is better, but this stuff was outright demonization and propaganda.

With "friends" like that, who needs Democrats. Don't believe their pious "We're the True Believers" crap for ONE second. Just because he hasn't been part of the political good ol' boy network, that's no excuse.

There's no more or less reason to believe what this guy says his positions are than any of the other guys. If fact, his signature issues are things that he has spoken about publically for years, and are MORE conservative than most so-called conservatives.

Posted by: Optimizer at May 25, 2016 05:03 PM (jPHi7)

329 I consider them both awful, with a strong likelihood that they push the same policies. Everything Trump says comes with an expiration date, usually 24 hours or so. He's been a liberal historically, so on policy, it's a wash. He's ruled out entitlement reform, wants single payer, and has said he'd craft great deals with Pelosi, Reid and the like.

As a Republican, though, representing the supposed party of small government, he would move the Overton window leftward.

His brashness/impulsiveness is the issue that will drive me 3rd party.

When he said he'd address the debt by simply not paying it all, the impact to the economy would have been swift and terrible. His statement of making South Korea a nuclear power could have prompted an already unstable Nork government to do something drastic in a first strike.

She's more calculating than he is, and is less likely to say something with massive and unpredictable ramifications.

I agree with his supporters who were fed up with being offered two awful choices. They chose Trump because they wanted to burn it down, and protest the way things are done. I sympathize and agree, but I won't give my imprimatur to Trump by adding my vote to his total.

Posted by: Sardiver at May 25, 2016 05:03 PM (Z3iry)

330 Ace sez:

"Believe me, if Trump tanks in the polls, or if some really terrible info comes out about him (which I think is fairly likely), I'll be the first guy explaining to the Trumpheads why we must pull the bathtub drain on Trump to save the Republic."

Hold on there, Ace. You are putting your soul and your extremely important decision-making capability in the hands of pollsters, who are know to be often be crooked and slant things to their preference.

One should never ever say "Well, if these liberal pollsters successfully manipulate the polling stats to make it look like their liberal candidate is winning, then I will totally freak out and self-implode!"

That's exactly why they WANT you to do, and WHY they manipulate the polling.

I don't freakin' care whether or not the polls show Trump down by ten points on election ever or up by ten points: Either way, I'm going to assume it's all fake and manipulated numbers.

Everyone knows that nation is split down the middle almost evenly. Even the "big landslide" elections in recent decades were just a matter of a few percentage points extra.

Trump and Hillary are going to be close in the popular vote -- guaranteed. it all is going to come down to the electoral college and on-the-ground vote-fraud and suppression-of-vote-fraud.

Don't surrender your intellectual autonomy to crooked pollsters, Ace!

Posted by: zombie at May 25, 2016 05:03 PM (jBuUi)

331 No, I just really hate Trump. I really, really hate Trump. And the people who voted for him annoy me.

Not that I am saying Hillary is the antidote. Gods, no. They are both villains.

Posted by: Leo Spaceman at May 25, 2016 05:03 PM (YNLMI)

332 This is all really fucking depressing...

I think we're screwed either way, but maybe slightly less screwed with Trump...

Posted by: donna at May 25, 2016 05:03 PM (O2RFr)

333 Some people actually do have principles, and act by them.
Posted by: Matt from WY at May 25, 2016 05:01 PM (RSa+S)

Some people are Adults and deal with the real world as it is, not as they wish it were

Posted by: Nevergiveup at May 25, 2016 05:03 PM (Ozsfq)

334 >>I believe that he will enlist mostly smart people to advise him.

I really haven't seen of this during this campaign.

Posted by: chique d'afrique, former Republican at May 25, 2016 05:04 PM (iLoHX)

335 "G-d, Hilary winning would be the bitter end."

If she manages to pull this off by fraud, Trump implodes, conservative stay home... or some combination there is one thing for sure. She will be elected to govern a country with probably about 70% of the population detests her

All Republicans, probably 70% of independent and at least 50% of Dems hate or will hate her. And not the phony MSM inspired hate that they gins up against Republicans. She really is despicable and everybody can see it. It will be a fiasco worse than anything we can imagine.

Posted by: Ripley at May 25, 2016 05:04 PM (1BQGO)

336 Some jack ass is bring up the "alt-right" again?

Reminds me of the grassy knoll

Posted by: Nevergiveup at May 25, 2016 05:00 PM (Ozsfq)

The "grassy knoll" doesn't post on Twitter, Facebook, &c. and blast anyone who doesn't suck teh Donald's cock as a "cuckservative" (i.e. race traitor) or a "neocon" (i.e. an eeevil Jooo).

As I said, my vote won't be the deciding one. Why should I sell out and vote for teh Donald? Why should I validate the Alt-Right?

If by some chance teh Donald gets elected, my first thought will be "who will real conservatives run in 2020?

Posted by: The Political Hat at May 25, 2016 05:04 PM (Z8xbi)

337 I was this () close to a #Never, but as I have long said Prager pulled me away from that and has a good write this week on why voting for Trump is the only option.

Posted by: Skip at May 25, 2016 05:04 PM (3wHFl)

338 I meant, I haven't seen any evidence of this during the campaign.

Posted by: chique d'afrique, former Republican at May 25, 2016 05:04 PM (iLoHX)

339 I'll say this from my perspective. I have never used the phrase NeverTrump to describe myself, though I have consistently said I will not vote for him - and nothing has caused me to change my mind on that. Small (and perhaps no) difference. But I at least leave open the possibility to voting for him in 2020 - should he win - so you know I'm not a never guy. I don't want Hillary to win. But I don't want Trump to win either. I don't like either of them and think both are manifestly unfit to serve as President and CIC. Now I've had to make compromises before and will again. But as of now I'm unwilling to compromise on either of them. It may practically be a binary choice - but my choice is still neither.

All that being said, I see no reason to constantly trump a no trump charge. If he wins, I hope he will turn out to be better than I think. I hope Congress will reassert itself, a conservative gets on the court, etc. And I have never been on the Trump can't win train. I've consistently said Hillary will lose to anyone (other than Jeb).

So for me, I am notTrump 2016. I'm sorry if that offends. But I hope he is what you say or hope he can be.

Posted by: SH at May 25, 2016 05:04 PM (gmeXX)

340 Compared to Barky and the Hildabeast , Trump looks damm near monk-ish. Relatively speaking of course and lots of beer.

Posted by: KIllerdog at May 25, 2016 05:04 PM (QlKDg)

341 302 Let me sum up:

Since 1992 1988, at the very least, those of us on the more conservative side have been told to sit down, shut up and vote for the Republican candidate Because Democrats and Because Electability along with a sneering side of condescension about how you just are too childish to get how this game is played and don't make the perfect the enemy of the good.

FIFY

Posted by: rickb223 at May 25, 2016 05:00 PM (EdhH3)

Their track record is great. Since Reagan a one termer who raised taxes after saying he wouldn't and...getting the son of same elected by having to resort to a Supreme Court decision and who basically only won reelection because of 9/11.

Every other GOPe candidate was scared of their own shadow whose hobbies included worrying, crying, and assuming a Chip Diller subservience to the media.

These are the geniuses.

Posted by: Dack Thrombosis at May 25, 2016 05:04 PM (4ErVI)

342 Some people are Adults and deal with the real world as it is, not as they wish it were
Posted by: Nevergiveup at May 25, 2016 05:03 PM (Ozsfq)

If you think compromising your principles makes you an adult, then you are the problem, not the solution.

Posted by: Matt from WY at May 25, 2016 05:04 PM (RSa+S)

343 Um @alexthechick

That would make sense if...you know...you backed a conservative and not a guy who as a Democrat till 2009, who said he considers himself more of a Democrat than a Republican, who was for Partial Birth Abortion at age 53 and loves Planned Parenthood now. Oh and is for the government mandate NOW.

So Trumpkins who back Trump because of RINOs, your backing a Fucking Liberal Big Government Democrat.

Great job morons

Yes I'm #NeverTrump now. If my vote in Florida would make Trump win the state I'll not think an extra second before voting Libertarian

Posted by: CLARENCEWHORLEY at May 25, 2016 05:04 PM (K5tmh)

344 People may call me anything they wish but my position in being Never Trump is solid, even if I'm the only one. I take no responsibility at all for Hillary getting elected, if indeed she does. If that bothers people, deal with it.

I love the freedom of not having to explain to those with whom I talk politics meaningfully IRL the inanities and clownfuckery of the man who is going to be our candidate, Fuckstick McClownface, or Clownstick McFuckFace, however it goes.

I've been voting GOP since I was in the first group of 18 year olds given that right, holding my nose too many times. That ain't going to happen any longer, especially when our candidate is a liberal democrat. I'd have voted for any of our candidates for 2016, except Trump. As far as I'm concerned, Trump = Hillary anyway. We hopefully vote in someone to try to undo the damage she's caused in 4 years.

Haven't yet decided if I'm going to write in Ted Cruz or vote for whichever third-party candidate is on the ballot, but I am definitely going to vote.

Posted by: The Fabulous T is Never Trump at May 25, 2016 05:04 PM (MeXxt)

345
If Trump's actual life is to be any guide, he's likely to do whatever makes him the most money and strokes his ego the most. Dismantling any part of the liberal state, reducing the power of the government in any way, does not typically support that aim.
Posted by: Matt from WY

You know, theoretically we'd have the severely conservative GOP controlled Congress unleashed and sending reams of tots awesome legislation for Trump to sign.

Theoretically.

Posted by: Laurie David's Cervix at May 25, 2016 05:05 PM (kdS6q)

346 Seriously? All those lonely nights with just you and your hand? The acne? The all nite D&D games??
Posted by: Bruce With a Wang!
--------

I think that there was also an admonishment, "Use it wisely.."

Posted by: Mike Hammer, etc., etc. at May 25, 2016 05:05 PM (9mTYi)

347 I'll say it again.Vote Hillary,vote third party,don't vote.Just don't condescend to those that feel differently.

Posted by: steevy at May 25, 2016 05:05 PM (B48dK)

348 And in response to Cicero, yes, the failures of Obama and the corruption of House Clinton had turned a lot of voters off of left-wing authoritarianism. But a plurality of the Republican primary electorate decided that they wanted their own brand of authoritarianism, so now both options are authoritarian. I'll pass.

Posted by: Anachronism at May 25, 2016 05:05 PM (48ffF)

349 I was insulted when people would say "get over it" and support Trump. My human response was "Fuck you and don't tell me to get over it!".

Posted by: Cheri at May 25, 2016 05:01 PM (oiNtH)

See how I felt about the George Bushes, Dole, McCain and Romney.

Look. I am not a better person. I am a petty, nasty, vindictive bitch. I have something rather the opposite of sympathy for those who are now discovering that being patted on the head and told but there is no Establishment and the voters in the primaries chose the candidate and here let me emotionally blackmail you about how you vote leads to the very human response of fuck you and the horse you rode in on.

There is a huge part of me that is taking massive glee in flipping open the Dwarven Book of Grudges and determining if I should stomp people's faces into the mud alphabetically or by the rage index.

Posted by: alexthechick- Darth Sugartits at May 25, 2016 05:05 PM (mf5HN)

350 By the by, this is me being the better person about this.
Posted by: alexthechick- Darth Sugartits at May 25, 2016 04:58 PM (mf5HN)
______________________________________________

Hell yea...

Posted by: Piere LaFoot at May 25, 2016 05:06 PM (aQQbl)

351 I won't be voting for Trump, I'll be voting for the tears of my enemies & to hear the lamentations of their women & pajama boys.

Posted by: josephistan at May 25, 2016 05:06 PM (7HtZB)

352 291 jwest,
I hope you're right. I would love to be wrong about this. Nonetheless, Trump has given me no reason to believe he can be trusted. Therefore he does not get my vote.

Posted by: Matt from WY at May 25, 2016 04:58 PM (RSa+S)

Water flows downhill.

Trump needs to be admired.

These are two absolutes. A black hold will swallow the earth before either one of those prove to be untrue. You can count on them.

Trump will go for the easy win every time. How much skill does it take to stop Social Security checks going to dead people? All you need is a change in civil service regulations to allow the president to fire a few people and the problem is solved.

There are hundreds, thousands of easy, common sense changes that could be made immediately if someone isn't worried about rocking the boat. Trump doesn't care if he tips the boat over, as long as he gets the credit.

I'm depending on his ego. It will make him the best president in 100 years.

Posted by: jwest at May 25, 2016 05:06 PM (Zs4uk)

353 If you are saying not Trump, and not Hillary, and not Bernie, then you are expecting the two party conventions to draft someone else.

Then it becomes arithmetic, how many will vote for the not person? How many loyal supporters of the three candidates still in the race will vote for the not candidate, and how many will stay home.

And how many will riot in the street because their democratically selected favorite is denied by the political machine.

I have no idea.

What will you do if the party conventions select some other person? Well, it depends on who that alternate might be and how the parties spin the selection, and how the media reports it.

With a 4 trillion dollar slush fund at stake, how far will they go to sieze control of all that money?

This could easily be the 1860 election all over again.

Posted by: Glorious Ungent at May 25, 2016 05:06 PM (kBd14)

354 The cucarachas are coming out of the woodwork.

Posted by: Soona at May 25, 2016 05:06 PM (Fmupd)

355 >>She really is despicable and everybody can see it. It will be a fiasco worse than anything we can imagine.

Despicable ***and*** not physically well!!
She is not healthy enough for the job, and I cannot believe the MSM is willing to drag her carcass to the WH. Gawd knows who would actually be running the country should Hillary be elected.

Posted by: Lizzy at May 25, 2016 05:06 PM (NOIQH)

356 This is all really fucking depressing...

Posted by: Insomniac at May 25, 2016 05:02 PM (0mRoj)

This.......

I know we all like the "burn it down" mantra, but I'm not willing to fuck this thing into the ground to prove to the liberal tards they're stupid and yell 'SEE!?! Told YA!!!' when it's too late and we'll never see American again. I'm not willing to be a part of depriving the world of the only hope it's got.

Trump it is. May he pick a good running mate and the next savior is in place 8 years from now.......or SMOD.

Posted by: Sponge at May 25, 2016 05:06 PM (xttKs)

357 Game theory my dear boy.
2 party election isn't about idealism especially in the general. It's about realism and the last worst outcomes.
I avoid the issue entirely by saying I only vote against politicians. Then I never have to reflexively defend what they do "well it's your fault you voted for him!" No sir I did not. I voted against Hillary.
So I only vote against. That is the game you are presented with and that is the best strategy you can play

Posted by: mst3k at May 25, 2016 05:06 PM (F0vty)

358 If you think compromising your principles makes you an adult, then you are the problem, not the solution.
Posted by: Matt from WY at May 25, 2016 05:04 PM (RSa+S)

Sorry but that is kinda laughable...Being in the real world and being an adult is often about making compromises.

Posted by: Nevergiveup at May 25, 2016 05:06 PM (Ozsfq)

359 >>>306 Some jack ass is bring up the "alt-right" again?
Reminds me of the grassy knoll

Yes, continue to pretend they don't exist. It's much easier than denouncing them, distancing yourself from them, purging them from the TrumpTrain or standing up to them.

I've noticed that alot of the GO GO TRUMP RANGERS! aren't that interested in talking about the alt-right and really try to shut it down as soon as the topic comes up.

It's why we bring it up so much.

Posted by: LOL Kabong at May 25, 2016 05:06 PM (MCmqp)

360 332 This is all really fucking depressing...

I think we're screwed either way, but maybe slightly less screwed with Trump...
Posted by: donna at May 25, 2016 05:03 PM (O2RFr)

Maybe. Like I said earlier, we know to a near-certainty that Hillary is going to deliberately auger the airplane in. With Trump...who the hell knows.

Posted by: Insomniac at May 25, 2016 05:06 PM (0mRoj)

361 It would help if Trump picked someone actually good for VP (i.e. not Newt, Christie, etc.). And I agree that it might not be Hillary. But if it's Trump v. Hillary, what can you do other than swallow hard and do what I used to think was unthinkable; vote for Trump.

Fever dream: Trump picks a good VP, gets elected and does something so stupid that Dems move to impeach and R's go along with it.

Posted by: duke at May 25, 2016 05:06 PM (EQNFN)

362 Posted by: steely at May 25, 2016 05:05 PM (B48dK)

---

Some folks can't help themselves.

It's their way or the highway.

Posted by: SMFH while circling the drain... at May 25, 2016 05:06 PM (rlfds)

363 I've said all along I only have two real options this November: Trump or 3rd Party. I will not under any circumstance vote for Hillary, but I'm not voting for Trump just because he has an "R" next to his name. He has to win my vote, and he's got 5 months of his patented 'charm offensive' to do so.

Posted by: broseidon king of the brocean at May 25, 2016 05:07 PM (kumBu)

364 Despicable ***and*** not physically well!!
She is not healthy enough for the job, and I cannot believe the MSM is willing to drag her carcass to the WH. Gawd knows who would actually be running the country should Hillary be elected.

Hello VP Castro!

Posted by: donna at May 25, 2016 05:07 PM (O2RFr)

365 Least worst.

Posted by: mst3k at May 25, 2016 05:07 PM (F0vty)

366 320 Instead of targeting me and others like me for not getting on the tram train, why don't people instead try to get Trump to do things that will earn our votes?
Posted by: chique d'afrique, former Republican at May 25, 2016 05:02 PM (iLoHX)

Wait a second. I am NOT targeting you. I am merely observing that you're not getting the bigger picture.

Believe me. If Mr. Trump wins, he is going to have to be hounded on a daily basis. I understand that and it infuriates me that he's not using the constant media attention to attack the Left for their record.

But this election is ball game. There is no going back. Forgive me if I seem to be picking on you (I'm not), but this time it's for real.

That's all I'll say.

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at May 25, 2016 05:07 PM (p4UlV)

367 I'm in Texas and we all know how that's going to work out in the end. Trump will win Texas by close to double digits.

So, since I am a long standing member of #NeverTrump, and I do plan on voting, I will probably vote for the Libertarian candidate. I think his name is Phil or Bill. Who knows?

PhilBill(?) 2016!

Posted by: Skunky Choom at May 25, 2016 05:07 PM (CbGSW)

368 For years, I've derided all you people (yes, you people), who say you've given up on the GOP, who say you will not vote for its "liberal" "RINO" candidates - whether McCain, Romney, Rubio, etc. I've found you people all quite daft and short-sighted. And now, we have a true liberal on the ticket, - not only liberal, but massively uninformed and dishonest. It is imperative that we vote for him! All that stuff about protest voting? Pffttftt.

I will not be voting for Trump - not for some #hashtag, or because of my conscience, or Virtue Signalling, or reputation. I'm not voting for Trump because he crosses so far beyond any reasonable threshold of policy positions I support and competence that I simply can't vote for him.

I'm all for voting for the lesser of two evils, but I've always taken that as being somewhat hyperbolic. I'm supposed to trust that Trump being the "Republican" candidate means he will toe the line and throw us a few bones. I see no reason to believe that. I also don't care about your big stupid wall, even if I do care about immigration enforcement.

Underlying the foregoing rant, it is not truly a binary choice. I've had a reasonable tolerance for candidates not always taking the positions I support, while I think many of you people reacted like special snowflakes in not supporting "RINOs". That you could blame conservatives like myself in not supporting the most liberal Republican candidate in my lifetime is laughable.

Imagine if the ethic being pushed were not an absolute choice between two evils, but rather - as some of you people previously contented - that protest voting matters and that some candidates are just so far outside of what you believe there is no reason to vote for them.

This is not an obligatory game of "would you rather" in which I must choose between my right arm and my left arm. If this means I'm destined to wander the political wasteland in search of a new party, well that is a choice. And if enough people make that choice (as so many of you pretended previously). I'm not giving up on the GOP, but Trump is not a candidate I can support even if he does have an R next to his name.

Posted by: Crispian at May 25, 2016 05:07 PM (wbYF0)

369 Trump spent 70 years of his life getting to the place in his head where he is now. Do you see that changing under ANY circumstances? What you see now, the braggadoccio, the lack of information and the lack of INTEREST in information, the rock-solid promises suddenly become "suggestions," the lifetime NYC Democrat tropes and talking points leaking out when he's under pressure, this is it. For him to change now in any meaningful way would be like Falstaff turning into Henry V.

Honestly, I can see him being as impulsive and incompetent as anything Obama has pulled.

And you're right, Ace, we don't know what else is to come. Given the stuff Trump's admitted to, it would have to be a doozy.

So... no. I've already come to grips with the fact that I DON'T KNOW if I can vote for Trump and won't know until I'm standing in front of the polling machine. I DO know I won't vote for Hillary. But I know about Huey Long, and I remember George Wallace, and I remember that the final death of a republic most often arises out of its mobs. I don't believe the vast majority of Trump voters are Hitler but... I think I DO believe they're the German people of 1936, desperate for a charismatic leader who promises to give them wonderful things and punish their enemies real, imagined and politically convenient.

Posted by: richard mcenroe at May 25, 2016 05:07 PM (Kucy5)

370 I'm a Constitutionalist. Neither Trump or Hil cares at all about the Constitution. Hil understands it and works to get around it. Trump runs at it flailing and screaming.

Both are authoritarians. Hillary is cagey about his authoritarian tendencies, Trump shouts them from stage to the cheers of an audience. Neither wants smaller government, Federalism.

Trump is considerably worse then - and to the left of - Hil on international relations and trade. He could be mind-bogglingly disastrous on those issues.

If Trump gets the nod, Constitultionalism is dead for a generation at least.

This is not the last election, and there will be Supreme Court vacancies in the future. Given the way the presidency shifts between parties, if Trump is elected, he is the most conservative president who will be choosing justices for 8 to 16 years.

Posted by: person at May 25, 2016 05:07 PM (mFkVC)

371
How about voting Libertarian?

Posted by: A CompSci Major, Who Sells His His Extra Adderall Pills on Craigslist
Posted by: Laurie David's Cervix at May 25, 2016 04:58 PM (

Like the Gary Johnson and William Weld ticket?

You remember William Weld? The liberal republican nanny state gun grabbing governor of Massachusetts? The guy that thinks Romney was toooo conservative?

That "Libertarian" VP candidate?

Posted by: rd at May 25, 2016 05:07 PM (v0YLX)

372 Lots of Unknown Unknowns here today.

Posted by: Bertram Cabot Jr. at May 25, 2016 05:08 PM (k4M/B)

373 A lot of the Never Trump arguments sound to me like leftists moaning that Obama isn't enough of a leftist.

I'll vote for Trump for any number of reasons, one of which is the huge pushback against political correctness that he brings with him.

But I respect each voter's right to decide who to vote for.

Posted by: @votermom at May 25, 2016 05:08 PM (7lVbc)

374 See how I felt about the George Bushes, Dole, McCain and Romney.

Look. I am not a better person. I am a petty, nasty, vindictive bitch. I have something rather the opposite of sympathy for those who are now discovering that being patted on the head and told but there is no Establishment and the voters in the primaries chose the candidate and here let me emotionally blackmail you about how you vote leads to the very human response of fuck you and the horse you rode in on.

There is a huge part of me that is taking massive glee in flipping open the Dwarven Book of Grudges and determining if I should stomp people's faces into the mud alphabetically or by the rage index.

Posted by: alexthechick- Darth Sugartits at May 25, 2016 05:05 PM (mf5HN)

And you're a Browns fan. I feel that needed to said.

Posted by: Dack Thrombosis at May 25, 2016 05:08 PM (4ErVI)

375 You want to be all but I can't vote for Trump because he's awful? No problem. You want to be but I can't vote for Trump because he's awful but all that prior stuff I said about how not voting means you're complicit in electing Democrats no longer is operative?

Yeah. No.

By the by, this is me being the better person about this.

Posted by: alexthechick- Darth Sugartits at May 25, 2016 04:58 PM

************

Trump was sold as a Burn it All Down candidate--and "f*** all you all!" --you knew the risks.

Now you have to convince the moderate swing vote to vote Fo Trump, and you have to hope the Dems do not replace Hillary.

Good luck.

Posted by: Danube River Guide at May 25, 2016 05:08 PM (mcm0N)

376 If the only reason you were never Trump was because you thought he'd lose, you weren't really never Trump to begin with. Instead, you sound like that guy formerly at NRO (I forget which one) who penned the "Hillary Clinton: the conservative choice" or some such balderdash.

I begrudge no one their vote. After all, it belongs to them. Also, I haven't engaged in the Never Trump virtue signaling. I made my position known late last summer when I sad a) he was likely to win the GOP nomination and b) I did not see myself voting for him. Now that part "a" has occurred, I've got months to think about part "b". But let's be clear: the "vote for person A or the republic dies" lost its ability to affect me back when McCain ran against Obama. It had no impact on me in 2012, although I did end up voting for Romney, because I thought he was a decent man with some business expertise, which this country needs. A lot.

So for the last decade plus, I've been scolded as unpatriotic for not toeing the GOP party line, and now I'm being called a traitor if I don't back the GOP's candidate again this time. Um, no. I'd offer any and all of you advice on how to win friends and influence people, but it's obvious that most of you wouldn't understand it. I've said repeatedly that I'm open to being persuaded, but calling me a fucking traitor because I'm not falling line is, to put it bluntly, a whole lot of fail going on.

In conclusion, I will say that I was-possibly, at least in small measure-open to the idea of potentially pulling the lever for Trump, if someone tried convincing me. However, the constant refrain of "fall in line, traitorous asshole" is closing that window of opportunity. Being a gigantic asshole might be fun at times (hey, I like to do it, too), but y'all really want to rethink it as a means of persuasion.

Posted by: physics geek at May 25, 2016 05:08 PM (MT22W)

377 I was never a #NeverTrump guy. And I will never pull a lever for Hillary.

But I find it hard to pull one for Trump. Yes, you can say then by default I have pulled one for Hillary. But pulling a lever for either one of them makes it very hard to face myself in the morning.

I understand your point. I will prefer to work the state route, by fighting back the Feds through stronger reps and state govt (such as what is going on in Texas with Abbott taking Obama on again).

In my opinion, soon, the States are going to begin refusing to recognize SCOTUS decisions on that same 10th Amendment grounds. I can no longer get excitied about voting for someone because they are less bad than the other guy. Just cannot do it.

Posted by: JEM1 at May 25, 2016 05:08 PM (ZoYwk)

378 I will not vote for Trump. Hillary will be a disaster (and I won't vote for her either), but supporting Trump will make us defend him and his constant contradictions, schoolboy insults, and diarrhea-of-the-mouth on everything from giving Japan nukes to possibly defaulting on the US debt. The Republican brand becomes HIM, and all of his generalissimo preening and aggressive anti-intellectualism. I thought we were better than this.

I really think PJ O'Rourke is right: Hillary is bad, but "within normal limits." If Putin rolls into western Ukraine, or China takes the Spratleys, or we have another financial crisis...are there any leftmost or rightmost limits we can assume about Trump. For f&@ks sake, he FLAUNTS being unpredictable, which is about the dumbest thing you should brag about as a candidate to be leader of the free world.

We now have two major parties: a leftist party, and a proto-populist, economically illiterate, cult of personality party.

NO. THANKS.

Posted by: A Solid 5 at May 25, 2016 05:08 PM (bD9bj)

379 As for the "alt right",yeah,it's not like the Democrats have some questionable characters on their team.

Posted by: steevy at May 25, 2016 05:09 PM (B48dK)

380 I've voted for Reagan, Bush, Bush, Dole, Bush, Bush, McCain, Romney and I will vote for Trump, and you all should too.

BECAUSE WHAT OTHER FUCKING CHOICE DO YOU HAVE?

And this shit about Trump not being Conservstive?

Look at that list above, there is only one actual conservative on that list.

So fuck that shit, suck it up, shit the fuck up, lay back and think of Hayek or DeToqueville, and pull that lever for Donald.

This literally may be the only chance to save the country.

Posted by: Kreplach at May 25, 2016 05:09 PM (Melsq)

381 Well, the good news is - we have till November to see what Trump says about various positions that are important to us as conservatives. (I'm assuming a conservative bias here at HQ)

The other good news is, we each get a vote. And it's secret ballot.

Posted by: grammie winger at May 25, 2016 05:09 PM (dFi94)

382 Posted by: Optimizer at May 25, 2016 05:03 PM (jPHi7)

Obama was more concise than your post when he said, "I won".

None the less, I have spent 7 years opposing him in every way I know how, calling him every name in the book, inventing some more names, and pinning the state of our country on his supporters... along with everyone else here.

But sure, shut up and get in line because "I won" is the rule of the land because your guy won this time, right?

Posted by: Damiano at May 25, 2016 05:10 PM (71OEY)

383 Has anyone figured out (if true) why Bill Clinton encouraged Trump to run?

Posted by: Mimzey at May 25, 2016 05:02 PM (aRUb

Well, they both claim it happened, though not in detail. If Trump "throws it" in some fashion then I would assume it was a plan to get Hillary in.

If he doesn't (win or lose, he just doesn't quit or blow it spectacularly), then probably *Bill* was thinking Trump would be easy to beat, but Trump was actually serious.

Not being a mind-reader, I can't be sure, but they did have that three-hour conversation before Trump announced. I kind of doubt Bill sincerely thought Trump would be a good President.

Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of the Sith at May 25, 2016 05:10 PM (wB8Tg)

384 one "alt-right" for one "neocon" ? that's the spirit !

Posted by: runner at May 25, 2016 05:10 PM (c6/9Q)

385 >>Believe me, if Trump tanks in the polls, or if some really terrible info comes out about him (which I think is fairly likely), I'll be the first guy explaining to the Trumpheads why we must pull the bathtub drain on Trump to save the Republic.

So we gotta get in line unless Trump sinks in the polls and then we can trash him despite the fact that electing Hillary means the end of the world as we know it?

I find this less than persuasive.

I was never a #neverTrump, I was and remain it's up to him to get me to vote for him. I would never vote for Hillary and I've never even threatened that I would *ahem* but if The Donald wants my vote he has to earn it. He's got work to do.

Posted by: JackStraw at May 25, 2016 05:10 PM (/tuJf)

386 All I can say is that from the beginning when Trump first started making waves, I have always felt that he actually LOVES this country and loves Americans. That is going to be enough for me.

Posted by: Soulpatchtony at May 25, 2016 05:10 PM (m40v5)

387 There is a huge part of me that is taking massive glee in flipping open the Dwarven Book of Grudges and determining if I should stomp people's faces into the mud alphabetically or by the rage index.

Posted by: alexthechick
---------

*slips patented Random Vengeance Target Generator into USB port*

Actually, it's a pseudo-random generator, but one can only do so much with software.

Posted by: Mike Hammer, etc., etc. at May 25, 2016 05:10 PM (9mTYi)

388 The problem with the libertarian candidate is that he's got more liberal positions than even Hillary on almost all issues except regulation. I could vote for Democrat Trump before the libertarian.

Posted by: MTF at May 25, 2016 05:10 PM (/m8T6)

389 https://twitter.com/AceofSpadesHQ/status/675449548790038531

Posted by: Dan at May 25, 2016 05:10 PM (cH4JC)

390 I know the country is in dire straits.

-
I'm feeling the Bern because I want money for nothing.

Posted by: Anonosaurus Wrecks at May 25, 2016 05:10 PM (Nwg0u)

391 #367 The Libertarian Presidential candidate, Johnson, believes the government has the right and power to force you into a contract to bake a gay or Nazi-themed wedding cake.

Their VP candidate, Weld, supports gun control.

These are not the libertarians you're looking for.

Write in Cruz if you have to make a statement of principal.

Posted by: richard mcenroe at May 25, 2016 05:10 PM (Kucy5)

392 I really think PJ O'Rourke is right: Hillary is bad, but "within normal limits." If Putin rolls into western Ukraine, or China takes the Spratleys, or we have another financial crisis...are there any leftmost or rightmost limits we can assume about Trump. For f&@ks sake, he FLAUNTS being unpredictable, which is about the dumbest thing you should brag about as a candidate to be leader of the free world.

---------------

Heh. This is the exact same thing they were saying about Reagan.

Posted by: Soona at May 25, 2016 05:11 PM (Fmupd)

393 Maybe Trump will slip in his own spray tan sauce and decide to hand everything over to his personal man servant--Chris Christie.

Posted by: Danube River Guide at May 25, 2016 05:11 PM (mcm0N)

394

About the upper middle class who used to run the party, or still do just barely

I remember Ace had a theory about the newest member of the upper class, or those with aspirations to it, will attack all those who try to upend the existing order the most fiercely

That's what's going on here

Posted by: ThunderB at May 25, 2016 05:11 PM (zOTsN)

395
I will not vote for Trump.
Posted by: A Solid 5

Would you? Could you? In a car?

Posted by: Laurie David's Cervix at May 25, 2016 05:12 PM (kdS6q)

396 378

I think this an absolutely key point - Hil is really, really terrible, but we know the limits of her terribleness. We have NO IDEA just how terrible Trump could be, and if we take authoritarian, narcissistic tendencies he has displayed throughout his life at face value, he could be very terrible indeed. He could be terrible in ways we can't even imagine - I'm thinking here of trade wars and withdrawal from NATO as a starting point.

Posted by: person at May 25, 2016 05:12 PM (mFkVC)

397 Well, they both claim it happened, though not in detail. If Trump "throws it" in some fashion then I would assume it was a plan to get Hillary in.

If he doesn't (win or lose, he just doesn't quit or blow it spectacularly), then probably *Bill* was thinking Trump would be easy to beat, but Trump was actually serious.

Not being a mind-reader, I can't be sure, but they did have that three-hour conversation before Trump announced. I kind of doubt Bill sincerely thought Trump would be a good President.

Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of the Sith at May 25, 2016 05:10 PM (wB8Tg)

I read that Trump registered "Make America Great Again" in 2012. That should tell you something.

Posted by: Soulpatchtony at May 25, 2016 05:12 PM (m40v5)

398 I can't really blame anyone for voting for Trump instead of Hillary. I get that. I just can't do it myself. A vote for someone isn't just a vote against the other guy. It's a positive statement that you think this person will be a good president. And I don't think he will be a good president. I think he will be every bit the statist Clinton is. Nothing about his life gives me any other impression, other than what he's said for the last couple of years when he was trying to be the GOP nominee.

Posted by: Matt from WY at May 25, 2016 05:12 PM (RSa+S)

399 Yeah, the Libertarians are awful this year, I could barely stomach Johnson, but him adding Weld? That was it for me.

I'm writing in Batman this year.

Posted by: chemjeff at May 25, 2016 05:12 PM (uAvJJ)

400 I'm going to time my commitment to Trump. If he's losing very badly, or winning going away, I'll vote third party. If it's close, I'll pinch my nose, close my sphincter, and vote for the ass.

p.s. broseidon king of the brocean - I was having lunch with my 26 year old daughter the other night, and we were laughing about bros, and I used the "Look here Broseiden" line. She cracked up and swore she was stealing it. Yes, I acknowledged that I didn't come up with it.

Posted by: pep at May 25, 2016 05:12 PM (LAe3v)

401 This is getting too nasty for Me... Lots of "new" posters?

Posted by: donna at May 25, 2016 05:13 PM (O2RFr)

402 Some people actually do have principles, and act by them.
Posted by: Matt from WY at May 25, 2016 05:01 PM (RSa+S)

----

And what would those principles be.??

Posted by: fixerupper at May 25, 2016 05:13 PM (8XRCm)

403 Write in Cruz if you have to make a statement of principal.

----------

That's probably what I will do. I will not vote libertarian because I will not vote for someone who is clearly pro-choice. Maybe there will be a third party person that I could conceivably get behind. Maybe there is a small, minuscule chance Trump convinces me to vote for him.

Actually, the best way for Trump to get me to vote for him is for more letters like the one from the authors in the last thread.

Posted by: SH at May 25, 2016 05:13 PM (gmeXX)

404 My theory on the #nevertrump crew. They know they can't win outright, deadline to get on ballot has passed in some states, but if they can take a few key states, they deny 270 to anyone. Then it goes to the House. Won't work, but that's really the only plausible scenario.

Posted by: Duke Lowell at May 25, 2016 05:13 PM (kTF2Z)

405 Ace, Trump supporters were horrible when you thought he was the worst. You even threatened to vote for Hillary.

So now that some of us still won't vote for him, we haven't even ever said we would vote for Hillary, we're now the bad guys? The funny thing is that when you were threatening to vote for Hillary, I was still willing to vote for Trump if he won the nomination.

Posted by: chique d'afrique, former Republican at May 25, 2016 05:13 PM (iLoHX)

406 grammie - I've been hyping this guy's observations in this thread, if only because he doesn't seem partisan:
http://preview.tinyurl.com/hker92a

Posted by: Mike Hammer, etc., etc. at May 25, 2016 05:13 PM (9mTYi)

407 Thank God! I thought earlier she was a Trump supporter. She is mentally ill and I do wonder who is taking care of her kid.
Posted by: Bruce With a Wang! at May 25, 2016 05:01 PM (iQIUe)

TT is mentally ill? Wow. I wonder why? Say, you don't suppose getting pounded by legions of anonymous men on camera could actually be bad for you, do you?

Posted by: OregonMuse at May 25, 2016 05:13 PM (N1Wpo)

408 392 I really think PJ O'Rourke is right: Hillary is bad, but "within normal limits."

--

Um, hello, Libya? Is that normal limits?

Posted by: @votermom at May 25, 2016 05:13 PM (7lVbc)

409 Posted by: chique d'afrique, former Republican

I wrote that because his campaign staff was able to outmaneuver and trounce 16 other candidates. Did I like they way they went about it? No.

Posted by: Cheri at May 25, 2016 05:13 PM (oiNtH)

410 At least with Clinton, she will be fought.
Posted by: Patrick Henry, the 2nd at May 25, 2016 04:37 PM (jTy8z)

Like they fight Obama?

Where are these idiots coming from who think the GOP is am opposition party?

Posted by: Blano at May 25, 2016 05:14 PM (VNhbF)

411

If you vote for Hillary you are no friend of this nation. I got no use for you. I remember Benghazi. You can go right to Hell

Posted by: ThunderB at May 25, 2016 05:14 PM (zOTsN)

412 It's funny how Trump gets no respect.

Maybe he should get John Miller, and John Barron on that ASAP!

Posted by: Danube River Guide at May 25, 2016 05:14 PM (mcm0N)

413 >> Hillary is bad, but "within normal limits." If Putin rolls into
western Ukraine, or China takes the Spratleys, or we have another
financial crisis...are there any leftmost or rightmost limits we can
assume about Trump.

Um, you're assuming Hillary will be tough against Putin?
When long-time Clinton crony John Podesta's firm is a paid lobbyist for Russia? After she assisted a Russian mining firm gain mining rights to half of the US's supply in exchange for Clinton Foundation donations.

Hillary has proven she can be bought; *has* been bought by foreign interest that are not in line with America's interest while serving as SoS. How/why would she magically transform to a true-blue patriot as POTUS?!?

Posted by: Lizzy at May 25, 2016 05:14 PM (NOIQH)

414 Posted by: person at May 25, 2016 05:12 PM (mFkVC)

you seem to have gotten lost on you way to the democratic underground, it is on the left and then another left

Posted by: runner at May 25, 2016 05:15 PM (c6/9Q)

415 Yeah, I kind of figured people who were appalled by Trump at the start of May would go wobbly. And voting against Hillary via voting for Trump is a defensible position.

But some of us will stay #NeverTrump because we are truly appalled by his lack of character and sewer politics. Hillary notwithstanding. If name calling and conspiracy theories areally the new norm some of us just want no part of it.

Posted by: V the K at May 25, 2016 05:15 PM (IrDVA)

416 Normal limits?

Benghazi. Are those the limits. Fu k off

Posted by: ThunderB at May 25, 2016 05:15 PM (zOTsN)

417 Well, the two hardcore NeverTrumps that I have read (Larry Corriea and Ben Shapiro) hold more or less the same position: Trump is a democrat and will forever tarnish the good name of the Republican party. I think they forget all the hard work of Mitch McConnell and John Boehner and most of the others in Congress already tarnishing the brand.

Quite frankly, I'm with Ace, a 5% chance of turning out good beats a 100% being evil any day of the week.

Posted by: Darth Randall at May 25, 2016 05:15 PM (6n332)

418 408
392 I really think PJ O'Rourke is right: Hillary is bad, but "within normal limits."

--

Um, hello, Libya? Is that normal limits?

Posted by: @votermom at May 25, 2016 05:13 PM (7lVbc)
Actually, yeah. It was very predictable and routine ass-covering on the part of Clinton.

Posted by: chemjeff at May 25, 2016 05:15 PM (uAvJJ)

419 But the choice is between Hillary Clinton -- a fucking psychopathic monster, liar, and caudilla-in-waiting -- and Donald Trump, a narcissistic buffoon.

Easy call.

yep
I made the leap.

As I said earlier, although it didn't matter at this point, I put down Trump as a write in on my Absentee Ballot - I had to vote for all of the other candidates anyway, Senate and so forth, so I wrote him in (as I'm unaffiliated to any party).

I'm on the Trump train unless there is an earthquake unlike no other, as Ace states.

Cannot let Hillary win. Cannot.

Posted by: artisanal 'ette at May 25, 2016 05:15 PM (qCMvj)

420 Weld my Johnson.

Posted by: Bertram Cabot Jr. at May 25, 2016 05:15 PM (k4M/B)

421 Soooooo... No more anti-Trump before it's again time for anti-Trump. We're in the trough between anti-Trump crests. OK.

Posted by: RioBravo at May 25, 2016 05:16 PM (NUqwG)

422 Yeah, I may have to drain a flagon or two before going to the polls, but I'm coming around to reluctantly voting for DT.

Won't make me happy, but Hills is a disaster to be avoided at all costs.

Posted by: dissent555 at May 25, 2016 05:16 PM (hQDvN)

423 if Trump had run against Hitler in 1933, how would you vote?

the answer of course is illegally, with a time machine.

but I'm not stopping there, because you can vote against Hitlery, legally and without a time machine.

Posted by: loud bald commercial guy at May 25, 2016 05:16 PM (nFwvY)

424 The primary is the time to be an idealist. The general is time to be a realist.
I get the whole voting your conscience and whatever but the game should not be which unicorn are you trying to get elected? The game is 2 main candidates one of whom will be elected, which is the least worst?
"But if everybody voted 3rd party we'd have one" is as good an argument as if everybody threw out their trash we'd have no litter, if everybody behaved we'd have no crime, it's unrealistic leftist garbage
It's a basic prisoner's dilemma. You can bemoan the fact that we have a 2 party system but there's not much you can do about it once it goes to the general. Feel free to vote 3rd party or not at all, but the optimal strategy is to vote against the one you find worst

Posted by: mst3k at May 25, 2016 05:16 PM (F0vty)

425 Ace,

Radio Silence? Why? Isn't this just another "shut up, he explained"?

Trump is awful. He's a terrible human being and would make a terrible president. Yes, he's probably a better human being and would be better president than Hillary, but he's still awful. So now "for the good of the country" I'm supposed to shut up about what a ridiculous shit show of a person he is?

Everything you say is a reason (maybe) to VOTE for him. But a reason to shut up? I don't see it.

Posted by: chris not rock at May 25, 2016 05:16 PM (85X6y)

426 I think this an absolutely key point - Hil is really, really terrible, but we know the limits of her terribleness.

I disagree. I think she has profound depths of terrible left to plumb.

Posted by: pep at May 25, 2016 05:16 PM (LAe3v)

427 And what would those principles be.??
Posted by: fixerupper at May 25, 2016 05:13 PM (8XRCm)

Integrity, honesty, keeping one's vows, not stealing other people's property, not oppressing the poor and weak, humility. Those being some of the ones most relevant to this situation.

Posted by: Matt from WY at May 25, 2016 05:16 PM (RSa+S)

428 420 Weld my Johnson.
Posted by: Bertram Cabot Jr. at May 25, 2016 05:15 PM (k4M/B)

Sounds painful.

Posted by: Insomniac at May 25, 2016 05:16 PM (0mRoj)

429 401 This is getting too nasty for Me... Lots of "new" posters?
Posted by: donna at May 25, 2016 05:13 PM (O2RFr)

------------------

Almost makes one think it's managed. Nah. Couldn't be.

Anyway, I'm out too. Too many cockroaches.

Posted by: Soona at May 25, 2016 05:16 PM (Fmupd)

430 You guys having a pie fight?

Posted by: Kent Dorfman at May 25, 2016 05:16 PM (JO9+V)

431 Now we need a thread with kittens.

Posted by: steevy at May 25, 2016 05:17 PM (B48dK)

432 On the plus side, I'll be draining a flagon or two.

Posted by: dissent555 at May 25, 2016 05:17 PM (hQDvN)

433 I don't owe Trump or the GOP my support. It has to be earned, and I'm not even asking for much.
Posted by: chique d'afrique, former Republican at May 25, 2016 04:35 PM (iLoHX)

Unfortunately you picked a bad time to become a citizen.

Rule of law is already almost gone.

With a President Clinton, it WILL be gone.

Are you willing to risk that by not voting against her?

Posted by: Blano at May 25, 2016 05:17 PM (VNhbF)

434 They are both lying, corrupt, out-of-touch, senile, scumbag authoritarian assholes.

I guess for me it boils down to 95% liberal and stable Clinton vs 70% liberal and very unstable Trump.

Posted by: IreneFingIrene at May 25, 2016 05:17 PM (fYFzF)

435 I haven't commented much in quite a while, but I'm a long-time reader.

Posted by: Matt from WY at May 25, 2016 05:17 PM (RSa+S)

436 >>> This literally may be the only chance to save the country.
Posted by: Kreplach at May 25, 2016 05:09 PM

Save? How?

Whatever merits Trump may or may not have, absolutely none of his policies deal with entitlements, other than to expand them and, in the case of Obamacare, expand and rename them. Nothing he has said is remotely coherent on dealing with the countless global issues that have metastasized during the Rein of Obama. Nothing he proposes resembles the Constitutional powers of the office he is running for.

Maybe you like what he says. You're entitled to your opinion. That's fine. None of what he says, however, can be even remotely construed as "saving" the country. "Fundamentally Change"? Sure. I didn't like that when the last guy was selling it. I don't like this brand of "Change" and "Hope" either.

Posted by: Damiano at May 25, 2016 05:18 PM (71OEY)

437 386

Why are people so convinced Trump "loves his country" in any particular sense? Every politician says they "love their country." Is it simply the twisted linkage of monetary success to patriotism - the richer you are, the more American?

Is it the repeated draft dodging? The mockery of military service as comparable to sexual promiscuity? The degrading of POWs?

Is it the praise of authoritarian despots? The disturbing cozying up to the dictatorial Putin, filling his staff with multiple advisers with strong Kremlin links? Is it the college-freshman-level moral equivalency he drew between Putin's murder of reporters and American actions?

Is it his leftist contention that Bush lied us into Iraq?

Is it his complete ignorance of the principles on which this country was founded, the basis for all real patriotism?

Why is Trump's "love of America" so noteworthy?

Posted by: person at May 25, 2016 05:18 PM (mFkVC)

438 I really think PJ O'Rourke is right: Hillary is bad, but "within normal limits." If Putin rolls into western Ukraine, or China takes the Spratleys,....

She'll abandon them like she did Benghazi.

Posted by: josephistan at May 25, 2016 05:18 PM (7HtZB)

439 >>I disagree. I think she has profound depths of terrible left to plumb.

Yep.
She's already said she'd try to overrule the 2nd Amendment with an EO.

We all know what happens after a leader takes away its citizens guns, right? There would nothing stopping her from doing whatever the h#ll her Alinsky-loving brain could come up with.

Posted by: Lizzy at May 25, 2016 05:18 PM (NOIQH)

440 False choice. Writing in Cruz on the CA primary this June. Nothing I have seen indicates that Trump is going to keep his word on anything he has said.

Sorry, not a mark. The "Lesser of two evils" crap is beyond old as well.

Posted by: WinLinBSDAdmin at May 25, 2016 05:18 PM (B11vO)

441 422 Yeah, I may have to drain a flagon or two before going to the polls, but

Posted by: dissent555 at May 25, 2016 05:16 PM (hQDvN)

Do you drink from the flagon with the dragon?

Posted by: OregonMuse at May 25, 2016 05:18 PM (N1Wpo)

442 Mika Tan >>> Tila Tequila

Posted by: wooga at May 25, 2016 05:18 PM (ztBLK)

443 He could be terrible in ways we can't even imagine - I'm thinking here of trade wars and withdrawal from NATO as a starting point.

Posted by: person at May 25, 2016 05:12 PM (mFkVC)

We're getting cheated on by price fixers like the Chinese who adjust the yuan to be below the dollar on purpose. Maybe its time to have a trade war. As far as NATO goes, almost none of our allies is meeting their obligations. Why? Because they know we'll pick up the slack. They need some uncertainty to shake them out of complacency. On the plus side, what if Trump got us out of the UN?

Posted by: Jollyroger at May 25, 2016 05:19 PM (t06LC)

444 Trump on his worst day is 100X better than Hillary on her best day.

Posted by: Monsieur Moo Moo at May 25, 2016 05:19 PM (r4VQU)

445 Is Ace back on twitter?

It is the only place he can really yell at #NeverTrump.

Posted by: LOL Kabong at May 25, 2016 05:19 PM (MCmqp)

446 Bern, Hillary, Trump.

The worst fvck, marry, kill game ever.

Posted by: Anonosaurus Wrecks at May 25, 2016 05:19 PM (Nwg0u)

447 Matt in WY, Joe in CA

Longtime reader first time poster

Severe concerned conservative

We see you every four years. Like political cicadas

Posted by: ThunderB at May 25, 2016 05:19 PM (zOTsN)

448 428 420 Weld my Johnson.
Posted by: Bertram Cabot Jr. at May 25, 2016 05:15 PM (k4M/B)

Sounds painful.
Posted by: Insomniac at May 25, 2016 05:16 PM (0mRoj)

Yeah, but it works.

Posted by: John Wayne Bobbit at May 25, 2016 05:19 PM (7HtZB)

449 Meanwhile Brad Thor and Glenn Beck were talking Trump assassination today. Wow. The masks are OFF.

Posted by: Emile Antoon Khadaji at May 25, 2016 05:19 PM (rvzMR)

450 Why are people so convinced Trump "loves his country" in any particular
sense? Every politician says they "love their country." Is it simply
the twisted linkage of monetary success to patriotism - the richer you
are, the more American?

Yeah I don't really get the whole "at least he loves this country" stuff. I think he loves HIMSELF way more than he loves his country.

Posted by: chemjeff at May 25, 2016 05:19 PM (uAvJJ)

451 A whole lot of people said they would not vote for Rubio if he was the nominee, or Jeb if he was the nominee. I guess they'd be expected to set aside their ideologies and get on the trolley if it was Jeb/Rubio instead of Trump?

Just because ~40% of the 28% of voters who identify as Republican - out of the ~60% of the population who votes, i.e. ~8% of the population - have decided to "give the finger to the GOPe", etc. in the form of Trump doesn't mean I have to set aside my ideology and indulge them. If enough people feel the same way then tough shit. I didn't ask for it, I don't want it, and I'm not going to convinced by "or else Hillary".

And that assumes Obama doesn't hate the Clintons and want to deliver one last killing blow to their political influence before he leaves office. Biden/Warren unity ticket, anyone?

Posted by: Baron Von Ottomatic at May 25, 2016 05:19 PM (ktzHq)

452 I'm pushing for an Article V convention, to limit the damage either could do. It's the only way to prevent the sort of post-Constitutional authoritarian we've had, and will likely continue having.

Posted by: Sardiver at May 25, 2016 05:19 PM (Z3iry)

453 Welcome back!

Posted by: Afroman at May 25, 2016 05:19 PM (AwmVj)

454 Is it his leftist contention that Bush lied us into Iraq?
-------
The left IS occasionally right.

Posted by: RioBravo at May 25, 2016 05:19 PM (NUqwG)

455 Change your frame of reference. If it bothers you to say you voted for trump, you don't have to. You are voting against Hillary. You don't have to support anything trump does, you just think hillary would be worse

Posted by: mst3k at May 25, 2016 05:20 PM (F0vty)

456 Welcome aboard team #FuckWhyThisGuy?

Knew you'd come around Ace...hopefully the rest of my cyber contacts do as well.

Posted by: sven10077 at May 25, 2016 05:20 PM (g8Hfr)

457
False choice. Writing in Cruz on the CA primary this June.
Posted by: WinLinBSDAdmin

*psst*

Cruz is still on the CA ballot.

Posted by: Laurie David's Cervix at May 25, 2016 05:20 PM (kdS6q)

458 First!

Posted by: the guy that moves pianos for a living at May 25, 2016 05:20 PM (tEDMc)

459 "Never Trump"

Sad....very Sad

Posted by: Bill Kristol at May 25, 2016 05:20 PM (b531m)

460 grammie - I've been hyping this guy's observations in this thread, if only because he doesn't seem partisan:

http://preview.tinyurl.com/hker92a

Posted by: Mike Hammer, etc., etc. at May 25, 2016 05:13 PM (9mTYi)
=========================================

Looks like some good information. I'll give it a read. As I've said before, I am keeping an open mind until November. I am willing to be convinced. Thanks for the article.

Posted by: grammie winger at May 25, 2016 05:20 PM (dFi94)

461 For all of you who apparently think I support Trump, I'm so very very very desperately sorry that I did not do the obligatory I do not support Trump because he is horrible awful in terrible awful ways that are both horribly and terribly awful.

Because, you know, obviously if one doesn't do that, one's a Trumpkin.

Obviously.

Clearly.

Plainly.

It's Unpossible In All The Ways that I can both not support Trump and still point out that those who previously mocked, how was it put, the special snowflakes deserve to have that position pointed out and held up and be held accountable about their prior words and statements as hard as humanly possible.

Here. I'll type slowly so people can get it.

I do not support Trump.

Trump is awful.

I have no problems saying, no, I will not vote for Trump. You know, because Trump is awful.

I have immense problems with those who previously demanding fealty to the Republican nominee suddenly discovering that their principles demand anything other than fealty because omg Trump is awful.

By the insanity of cthulhu, this is not rocket surgery nor is this difficult.

But, hey, what do I know. I didn't light the proper Gondor beacons so I'm totes a Trumpkin. It's. Science. Bitch.

Posted by: alexthechick- Darth Sugartits at May 25, 2016 05:20 PM (mf5HN)

462 Ole Miss '98, BA, History
A major private military college that will remain nameless as not to narrow me down to a dozen people, '12, MA, Military History.

Choo Choo, motherfuckers. The Trump Train has no fucking brakes, bitches.

Posted by: Colonel Kurtz at May 25, 2016 05:20 PM (QwmrN)

463 Shit.

Posted by: the guy that moves pianos for a living at May 25, 2016 05:20 PM (tEDMc)

464 Why is Trump's "love of America" so noteworthy?
Posted by: person at May 25, 2016 05:18 PM (mFkVC)

Because we've had 8 years of a President who clearly doesn't. People have forgotten that's not the norm.

Posted by: josephistan at May 25, 2016 05:21 PM (7HtZB)

465 alexthechick @290:

Look, you rock but I'm not buying this argument.

I'm on the more conservative side. I did hold my nose and support McCain and Romney. I never urged anyone else to, beyond explaining why I was, not that that influenced anyone I can think of.

Now I somehow owe it to Trump supporters to hold my nose and vote for their guy? I don't see why.

And how about this: I reserve the right to hold my nose and make the best of a bad choice in some cases, and to say, No, damn it, and I don't care if I'm being impractical or unhelpful, in others, depending on the details. I'm at peace with inconsistency.

Posted by: JPS at May 25, 2016 05:21 PM (mH5lL)

466 All you triumphal Trumpeters should just shut your pieholes. We don't like the guy, we think he's a pestilence. It's just that he's polio, and Hillary is the Black Death.

Posted by: pep at May 25, 2016 05:21 PM (LAe3v)

467 but I'm not stopping there, because you can vote against Hitlery, legally and without a time machine.

Wait. If I have a time machine, can I still vote against her?

Posted by: John Titor at May 25, 2016 05:21 PM (QW/FN)

468 There is always the possibility Congress will try to stop a President Trump more than they even thought about stopping Obozo

Posted by: Skip at May 25, 2016 05:21 PM (3wHFl)

469 Nope. Never means never.

Nobody is being forced to vote. I'm leaving it blank at the top and voting conservative down ticket.

And I'll sleep quite comfortably at night knowing I had nothing to do with either the Trump or Hillary shitstorm.

Let it burn.

Posted by: Bea Arthur's Dick at May 25, 2016 05:21 PM (pldrX)

470 417 Well, the two hardcore NeverTrumps that I have read (Larry Corriea and Ben Shapiro) hold more or less the same position: Trump is a democrat and will forever tarnish the good name of the Republican party. I think they forget all the hard work of Mitch McConnell and John Boehner and most of the others in Congress already tarnishing the brand.

Posted by: Darth Randall at May 25, 2016 05:15 PM (6n332)

The problem I have with this argument is I am not sure there is a Republican good name to tarnish. It has been pretty well oxidized already.

Now if you are talking about the principles of conservatism, that is a different story. Trump seems to have stayed away from describing himself as conservative, either because he does not see himself as one or because he feels it will limit his appeal. I do not know. I do not think the principles can be tarnished because I believe they are still as true today as they ever were, ignored though they may be.

Posted by: Aetius451AD at May 25, 2016 05:22 PM (3ZoRf)

471 431 Now we need a thread with kittens.

You're better off with something sturdier than thread, otherwise the kittens come off of the trot line...

Posted by: Zhytamyr at May 25, 2016 05:22 PM (91nzM)

472 >>>
Rule of law is already almost gone.

With a President Clinton, it WILL be gone.
....

Agreed.

Now tell me how rule of law is reimplemented, strengthened, or at the very least or absolute dismissal of rule of law is slowed by electing Trump?

Again, you make like what Trump is selling and you're entitled to that opinion. None of what he is selling, however, in any way resembles Rule of Law or the Constitutional powers allocated to the Executive Branch.

Posted by: Damiano at May 25, 2016 05:22 PM (71OEY)

473 You are voting against Hillary.

Any vote not for Hillary is a vote against Hillary. Voting for Trump is not required.

Posted by: chemjeff at May 25, 2016 05:22 PM (uAvJJ)

474 451 Posted by: Baron Von Ottomatic at May 25, 2016 05:19 PM (ktzHq)

Whatever it takes, I've caved like a whore to every GOP pick thus far...plan to do so again.

I freely admit I would not have pulled for Mark the Rube, Yeb, or Chrispy...

In the event of Yeb or Chrispy I *may* have pulled for Clinton out of spite.

Trump was not my 2, 4th or even 6th choice but Hillary is evil.....

I will use evil to slay evil.

Posted by: sven10077 at May 25, 2016 05:22 PM (g8Hfr)

475 473 Posted by: chemjeff at May 25, 2016 05:22 PM (uAvJJ)

Any vote that enables the she-bitch to win is a vote for Hillary....including your "Stoner/Gungrabber" dream ticket.

Posted by: sven10077 at May 25, 2016 05:23 PM (g8Hfr)

476 alexthechick: Didn't see your 461. Sorry if I misunderstood your position. I still see variations on this argument quite a bit, and I still don't buy them.

Posted by: JPS at May 25, 2016 05:23 PM (mH5lL)

477 #NeverTrump has yet to see a way clear to save face. This post details that way. Yes it is a realpolitik argument, yes it is a lesser of two evils, yes it is a hold your nose and support an offensive, execrable guy, but that is where we are and so it is what we, and I include myself, should do because #NeverHillary is the only proper play for a conservative. A principled vote for anyone but Trump is worthless. In fact, you can vote for Trump and still tell everyone you didn't. I promise your secret is safe with me.

Posted by: Steve Walsh at May 25, 2016 05:23 PM (SPxQP)

478 I disagree. I think she has profound depths of terrible left to plumb.

Posted by: pep at May 25, 2016 05:16 PM (LAe3v)

I agree.

Not only is there more evil - she would sell her soul-less soul for bribe, a kick-back, or greed, but her incompetence will be front and center. Incompetence could be construed as her making deals behind the scenes that we will never be aware of, or just plain incompetence because her ideology dictates it to be so.

She is scary. She thinks herself the queen as obama thought ximself the queen.

Posted by: artisanal 'ette at May 25, 2016 05:23 PM (qCMvj)

479 My entertainment for the day has been reading libs comments on Hildas e-mail report from the IG and watching them, twist, squirm, deflect and obfuscate. Pass the popcorn.....and beer!

Posted by: Minnfidel at May 25, 2016 05:23 PM (IJBEN)

480 454 Is it his leftist contention that Bush lied us into Iraq?
-------
The left IS occasionally right.

Posted by: RioBravo at May 25, 2016 05:19 PM (NUqwG)

Associating Trump with alt-righters and conspiracy theorists is not a way to convince me to vote for him.

Posted by: Cody's Feed Bag at May 25, 2016 05:23 PM (XiVKO)

481 I wrote that because his campaign staff was able to outmaneuver and trounce 16 other candidates. Did I like they way they went about it? No.

Posted by: Cheri at May 25, 2016 05:13 PM (oiNtH)

He has no campaign. Just a mob. Spiffy enough when you have insiders taking advantage of Trump supporters to secure power for themselves, while being concerned more with purging dissenters than winning elections in November.

Posted by: The Political Hat at May 25, 2016 05:23 PM (Z8xbi)

482 469 Nope. Never means never.

Nobody is being forced to vote. I'm leaving it blank at the top and voting conservative down ticket.

And I'll sleep quite comfortably at night knowing I had nothing to do with either the Trump or Hillary shitstorm.

Let it burn.
Posted by: Bea Arthur's Dick

is it because he's vulgar Bea Arthur's Dick?

Posted by: x at May 25, 2016 05:24 PM (nFwvY)

483 All the trojan democrats are coming out of the woodwork on this thread

Posted by: Nevergiveup at May 25, 2016 05:24 PM (Ozsfq)

484 ThunderB,

In case it matters at all- here's a post of mine linking Ace about a year ago.

http://www.medwardpowell.com/2015/06/1481/

Posted by: Matt from WY at May 25, 2016 05:24 PM (RSa+S)

485 477 Posted by: Steve Walsh at May 25, 2016 05:23 PM (SPxQP)

Kurt Schlichter has been on the path to acceptance....

Brad Thor not so much....

I can respect Thor's reasoning if not admire it.

Posted by: sven10077 at May 25, 2016 05:24 PM (g8Hfr)

486 This is why the right never wins anything. You're all about idealism and perfection. The left doesn't give a fuck about anything but winning elections. And those wins lead to incremental steps towards their end goal of worldwide communism. Wake the fuck up.

Posted by: Monsieur Moo Moo at May 25, 2016 05:25 PM (r4VQU)

487 480

Trump associated himself with conspiracy theorists by being one (lest we forget, Rafeal Cruz helped kill JFK.) As for the alt-right, he almost certainly isn't one of them, but he's too much of a narcissist to condemn their worst tendencies.

Posted by: person at May 25, 2016 05:25 PM (mFkVC)

488 Any vote that enables the she-bitch to win is a vote for Hillary....including your "Stoner/Gungrabber" dream ticket.

Posted by: sven10077 at May 25, 2016 05:23 PM (g8Hfr)
No it isn't and you know that. Any vote that is not for Hillary is a vote against Hillary.
And I'm not voting for the Libertarians either.

Posted by: chemjeff at May 25, 2016 05:25 PM (uAvJJ)

489 483 All the trojan democrats are coming out of the woodwork on this thread

Posted by: Nevergiveup

Cheese it guys, he's on to us.

Posted by: pep at May 25, 2016 05:25 PM (LAe3v)

490 I mentioned several times how the comments section at Breitbart often resembled an est session full of meth heads and primal screaming.

Really emotional there.

The #nevertrumpers, at least those who make their living off of this stuff, always presented themselves as the sober, calm, cerebral folks. When Trump became inevitable they immediately launched into the sort of histrionics one sees from a little child when Momma takes away their candy bar.

This whole season has been really interesting. I vowed a long time ago that I didn't have a dog in this hunt seeing as how I got burned repeatedly over the last several elections. I'm following the whole thing, of course, but it's been illuminating.

Posted by: Dack Thrombosis at May 25, 2016 05:25 PM (4ErVI)

491 *psst*

Cruz is still on the CA ballot.

Posted by: Laurie David's Cervix at May 25, 2016 05:20 PM (kdS6q)

Yeah, I know. Just want to give others in CA ideas on how to register some type of protest that Trump still has to earn my vote instead of taking it for granted.

At this point still not voting for him. Planning on writing in Cruz in November.

Posted by: WinLinBSDAdmin at May 25, 2016 05:25 PM (B11vO)

492 Trump is also your best bet for SMOD. Fed raises rates january 21st if trump wins, no more charades or life support for the obama bubble they can finally belch it all out and let reality hit so they can blame trump
If hillary wins you want another 8 years of QE and printing and 0pct rates so they can try to pass the hot potato again in 2024?

Posted by: mst3k at May 25, 2016 05:25 PM (F0vty)

493 Yeah, Write in Cruz, the guy who got his ass kicked by the buffoon.

I'd like to shake some of you virtuous dickweeds.

Posted by: nip at May 25, 2016 05:26 PM (r73Jl)

494 Wake the fuck up.

Posted by: Monsieur Moo Moo

Or perhaps you could just go fuck yourself.

Posted by: pep at May 25, 2016 05:26 PM (LAe3v)

495 Associating Trump with alt-righters and conspiracy theorists is not a way to convince me to vote for him.
Posted by: Cody's Feed Bag at May 25, 2016 05:23 PM (XiVKO)
-------
I don't care who you vote for. The W. lies are historic.

Posted by: RioBravo at May 25, 2016 05:26 PM (NUqwG)

496 I think most of you here are full of shit. When push comes to shove you will vote for Trump. You might not admit it, but you will do it. Because nobody who is a regular here can in good conscience sit by and help Hillary become president.

Posted by: Monsieur Moo Moo at May 25, 2016 05:26 PM (r4VQU)

497 >>>489 483 All the trojan democrats are coming out of the woodwork on this thread
Posted by: Nevergiveup

Cheese it guys, he's on to us.

**Loads up all that free govt cheese in a sack and makes for the door**

You'll never take me alive, Super Conservative Coppers! BWAHAHAHAHA!!!!

Posted by: LOL Kabong at May 25, 2016 05:26 PM (MCmqp)

498 Republican scorecard for the last 8 years.

Fast & Furious - rolled over
Black Panther Voter Intimidation - rolled over
Fed Screws GM Bondholders - rolled over
Voted to let Obamacare Out of Committee - why that was a Republican.
Obamacare Deemed to Pass without a reconciliation vote - rolled over
Federal Debt Ceiling - Rolled Over
IRS Scandal - Rolled Over
Soldiers Dying in VA Lines - Rolled over
Ben Fucking Ghazi - Rolled Over
EPA Poisons Three States - Rolled Over
Sequester - Out flanked, out maneuvered, out snookered.
Iranian Nuke Treaty - Not Ratified, but what the hell.
Illegals Flood the Border - Hands out teddy bears.
Muslim Refugees - Sorry, ran out of Teddy Bears
GITMO detainees released for one traitor private - Rolled Over.

Trump becomes the nominee - NOW Finds a Backbone.

Fuck those guys in particular.

Posted by: fixerupper at May 25, 2016 05:26 PM (8XRCm)

499 483

Yes, it's "Trojan Democrats" who don't like Trump. Real conservatives want the guy who funded the left for decades and holds no Constitutional principles.

Posted by: person at May 25, 2016 05:26 PM (mFkVC)

500 I think it would be lovely to see Hillary Clinton lose to Donald Trump.

Posted by: Oedipus at May 25, 2016 05:26 PM (CXLVd)

501 494 Wake the fuck up.

Posted by: Monsieur Moo Moo

Or perhaps you could just go fuck yourself.
Posted by: pep at May 25, 2016 05:26 PM (LAe3v)

____

If you help Hillary become president you will be fucked harder than you can imagine.

Posted by: Monsieur Moo Moo at May 25, 2016 05:27 PM (r4VQU)

502 Darth Sugartits, I am right there with you on telling our NYC/DC GOP betters that this time around, it's *our* turn to say 'suck it up, you have to vote for the Republican candidate who won the primary.'

I haaaated voting for McCain, I have hated watching people in other states vote for lame RINO types after the GOP party helped take out the more conservative challenger in the primaries.

To people like Bill Kristol, suck it up, buttercup!!

Posted by: Lizzy at May 25, 2016 05:27 PM (NOIQH)

503 if Trump had run against Hitler in 1933, how would you vote?

Posted by: loud bald commercial guy at May 25, 2016 05:16 PM (nFwvY)

Tough choice!

Posted by: Alt-Righter at May 25, 2016 05:27 PM (Z8xbi)

504 Trump will give Crooked Hillary a schoolyard beatdown like she should have gotten a long time ago.

Posted by: blogforce one at May 25, 2016 05:27 PM (XViXZ)

505 Remember when Quaddafi 's brutal death by mob was on video, and Hillary cackled " We came, we saw, he died."

Granted he had it coming, but that was a really disturbing look at Hillary's real sociopathic nature. In no way was that an appropriate emotional response. She's sick in the head.

And she's in a sexual thrall to a Muslim Brotherhood agent.

If she's in the WH, it will be a new era of personal vindictiveness that may surpass even Barky' s. She won't be constrained by Bill. She'll listen only to Huma.

Posted by: @votermom at May 25, 2016 05:27 PM (7lVbc)

506 Because nobody who is a regular here can in good conscience sit by and help Hillary become president.
Posted by: Monsieur Moo Moo at May 25, 2016 05:26 PM (r4VQU)

I hope your right, but me thinkith you have not been reading all the comments. LMAO

Posted by: Nevergiveup at May 25, 2016 05:27 PM (Ozsfq)

507 405 Ace, Trump supporters were horrible when you thought he was the worst. You even threatened to vote for Hillary.

So now that some of us still won't vote for him, we haven't even ever said we would vote for Hillary, we're now the bad guys? The funny thing is that when you were threatening to vote for Hillary, I was still willing to vote for Trump if he won the nomination.

Posted by: chique d'afrique, former Republican at May 25, 2016 05:13 PM (iLoHX)

************

We aren't the bad guys. We asked that they consider electability. Hell Trump was asked by grown ups to tone it down.

Then there was Trump's thugplomacy to every other candidate--which was essentially Trump choosing to burn bridges down--all around himself. (Egomaniacs tend to do that.)

Trump made his poor choices. He is responsible and accountable. His fans were we aware of all of this and some by extension acted as his diplomatic core of thugocracy all over the means of social media.

Now they say that we have to clean it up. It's impossible now, --it's up to the general electorate.

Posted by: Danube River Guide at May 25, 2016 05:27 PM (mcm0N)

508 May I have ten thousand marbles please?

Posted by: Kent Dorfman at May 25, 2016 05:28 PM (JO9+V)

509 Also, this isn't a matter of ego. A number of us were willing to vote for Trump at first. For goodness sake, I persuaded a friend to hold her nose and vote for him in the general because Hillary is so evil.

So I resent my decision being reduced to ego or shallowness or class consciousness.

Posted by: chique d'afrique, former Republican at May 25, 2016 05:28 PM (iLoHX)

510 I'm voting Gary Johnson as a protest vote. If polling shows Pennsylvania is actually in play, I'll probably reconsider. Also, if they resume trans-Atlantic zeppelin service, I'll probably book a trip.

Posted by: Spellcheck at May 25, 2016 05:28 PM (HKBpI)

511 .>>Trump becomes the nominee - NOW Finds a Backbone.

Fuck those guys in particular.

THIA

Posted by: Lizzy at May 25, 2016 05:28 PM (NOIQH)

512 But some of us will stay #NeverTrump because we are truly appalled by his lack of character and sewer politics.

I think my irony meter just exploded. Parts went everywhere. It will never work again.

Posted by: Glorious Ungent at May 25, 2016 05:28 PM (kBd14)

513 #NeverTrump isn't a strategy. It's a statement of principle.

If you believe that Hillary is a "psychopath" and Trump is just a harmless clown, then I can see voting for Trump.

Personally I believe Hillary is a typical corrupt and conniving pol, while Trump is an actual psychopath.

A Trump presidency would put us at risk in ways that Hillary, for all her ineptitude, would not. Risk of dictatorship, global depression, and nuclear war, for starters.

We can survive Hillary. There is a decent chance we would not survive Trump.

#NeverTrump.

Posted by: sauropod at May 25, 2016 05:28 PM (Xhywj)

514 Damn... checking back and You're still at each others throats...

Posted by: donna at May 25, 2016 05:28 PM (O2RFr)

515 483 Posted by: Nevergiveup at May 25, 2016 05:24 PM (Ozsfq)

To be fair the main ones have been rather obvious in the depths of their commitment in thwarting the Clinton crime family for a few years now.

Posted by: sven10077 at May 25, 2016 05:28 PM (g8Hfr)

516 Easy choice... #NeverHillary

... And there is still the GOP Convention to come in July.

Posted by: 7% Solution at May 25, 2016 05:28 PM (N4klH)

517 "I have immense problems with those who previously
demanding fealty to the Republican nominee suddenly discovering that
their principles demand anything other than fealty because omg Trump is
awful."

Posted by: alexthechick- Darth Sugartits at May 25, 2016 05:20 PM (mf5HN)

Oh, I see! You're being consistent.

I agree that Trump is awful. I will go further into the morass (what a weird word!) that are his positions and suggest that he is ignorant, badly educated, not logical at all, probably not very smart, and will undoubtedly do some very bad things if he becomes president.

But I am tending toward voting for him because my loathing of Clinton and everything she has done for her entire life makes me 100% sure that she will destroy the country I love.

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at May 25, 2016 05:28 PM (Zu3d9)

518 441

I may go shopping for a new flagon.

This will be a "special" occasion.

Posted by: dissent555 at May 25, 2016 05:28 PM (hQDvN)

519
Clinton will be Putin's and China's puppet.I have little doubt they both hacked into her server and have proof of massive criminal activityon both her personally and her sham foundation.

Posted by: Flawless Male Logic at May 25, 2016 05:29 PM (lKyWE)

520 I hope your right, but me thinkith you have not been reading all the comments. LMAO
Posted by: Nevergiveup at May 25, 2016 05:27 PM (Ozsfq)

___

Oh I have. It's the same shit I've been reading for months. And it's all bravado that in the end will mean nothing.

Posted by: Monsieur Moo Moo at May 25, 2016 05:29 PM (r4VQU)

521
...

so did Obama and so did Hillary. I agree this is a terrible position, but it is not a position by which to favor Hillary.

Posted by: ace at May 25, 2016 04:47 PM (dciA+)

____________I don't favor Hillary, and I will not vote for her either. She belongs in jail, not the White House.Trump belongs on the Atlantic City boardwalk, trying to fast talk some rubes into playing three card monty, or (maybe) purchasing a Rolex.Is that marginally better than being in jail? Maybe. But it doesn't earn my vote either.Not to worry though -- I live in one of those "deep blue" northeast states that Trump is going to flip. Right?

Posted by: Revenant at May 25, 2016 05:29 PM (y64uP)

522 Glorious Ungent

Gotta ask. Do you mean Gent as in gentleman, or unguent, as in salve?

Posted by: pep at May 25, 2016 05:29 PM (LAe3v)

523 I oscillate day by day as to whether Trump or Hillary would make the worst president but I can't in good conscience support either.
Posted by: SparcVark at May 25, 2016 04:24 PM (nKOXj)

Miiiiiiiiiissseeeeeeerrrrryyyyyyyyy!

Posted by: Helium and SparcVark at May 25, 2016 05:29 PM (1VVAD)

524 >>> Yeah I don't really get the whole "at least he loves this country" stuff. I think he loves HIMSELF way more than he loves his country.
....

I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt on that. Heck, all dictators tell themselves that what they are doing is out of love for their country... and they actually believe it.

Chavez, Stalin, Obama,... that guy with the pussy mustache.

I have yet to hear any lunatic get up and say, "I am a fucking lunatic but you people are going to listen to me because I am in this entirely for me and my own benefit"

Trump has come close to saying that a few times though.

Posted by: Damiano at May 25, 2016 05:29 PM (71OEY)

525 We can survive Hillary. There is a decent chance we would not survive Trump.

#NeverTrump.
Posted by: sauropod at May 25, 2016 05:28 PM (Xhywj)

Objection: Facts not in evidence

And pretty fuckin funny to boot

Posted by: Nevergiveup at May 25, 2016 05:29 PM (Ozsfq)

526 Posted by: Spellcheck at May 25, 2016 05:28 PM (HKBpI)

#NeverHydrogen

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at May 25, 2016 05:29 PM (Zu3d9)

527 His fans were *well* aware of all of this

Posted by: Danube River Guide at May 25, 2016 05:30 PM (mcm0N)

528 if Trump had run against Hitler in 1933, how would you vote?

Posted by: loud bald commercial guy at May 25, 2016 05:16 PM (nFwvY)

----

TRICK QUESTION CUZ TRUMP **IS** HITLER!!!!!

Posted by: Drooling NeveTrumpers Everywhere at May 25, 2016 05:30 PM (8XRCm)

529 I think the Trump candidacy is different that the other hold your nose candidates we've had. We've never had a GOP candidate that called for the last Republican President to be impeached. We've never had a GOP candidate that stated the economy does better under a democrat administration than a Republican administration. We've never had a GOP candidate that has stated he would not stop partial birth abortions.

I don't think it's inconsistent for people to say they will not vote for Trump when in the past they've asked for others to hold their noses. Trump is an entirely different animal.

I would also point out many of these Trump supporters had previously said that in no way would they ever vote for Bush if he was the candidate. They of course could have changed just as some of the NeverTrumpers have changed.

Posted by: Joe Hallenbeck at May 25, 2016 05:30 PM (V9ATq)

530
Unless something comes out about Trump making trips to Pedo Island with Epstein, or having sex with animals, I'll pull the lever for him. While holding my nose.
Posted by: Jane D'oh at May 25, 2016 04:27 PM (1ZOkK)

If Trump did visit Pedo Island, the chances are that Billy Jeff did so and so the Dems can't bring it up - as long as Hill is the the presumptive nominee.

If she's not, well, then...

Posted by: Donna&&&&V (a white) (whitely brandishing ampersand privilege ) at May 25, 2016 05:30 PM (P8951)

531 The problem I have with this argument is I am not sure there is a Republican good name to tarnish. It has been pretty well oxidized already.

Posted by: Aetius451AD at May 25, 2016 05:22 PM (3ZoRf)

Here's another knee-slapper: "Oh noes, Trump will cause irreparable harm to the conservative movement!"

*What* "conservative movement"? You mean NRO and Fox News and William Kristol and Mitt Romney and Charles Krauthammer and John McCain and George Will?? *That* "conservative movement"?

No.

I think *that* "conservative movement" deserves to be irreparably damaged. If NRO and Fox News and Kristol, et. al imploded and disappeared, I would not shed a tear. Because then we could clear the decks and start again.

Posted by: OregonMuse at May 25, 2016 05:30 PM (N1Wpo)

532 We can survive Hillary. There is a decent chance we would not survive Trump.

#NeverTrump.
Posted by: sauropod at May 25, 2016 05:28 PM (Xhywj)

_____

Yeah because Trump will ban guns, open up the border to all 70 million Mexicans and raise taxes to 95% like Hillary has promised to do.

Get off the meth dude.

Posted by: Monsieur Moo Moo at May 25, 2016 05:30 PM (r4VQU)

533 509 Posted by: chique d'afrique, former Republican at May 25, 2016 05:28 PM (iLoHX)

Come let's be honest Chique it *is* ego....politics is ego.

If the GOP rewarded my loyalty with two Amigo Grande! backers or Barack Obama's fluffer my ego would demand revenge....

I am no fan of Trump have lathed him since the Ed Koch era frankly....

but send a graft machine to slay a graft machine.

Posted by: sven10077 at May 25, 2016 05:30 PM (g8Hfr)

534 Now look here, my good man. The position of the conservative establishment is clear. We are determined to be on the right side of history; therefore, we favor better-managed, polite socialism, with vague Christian overtones, and strong government control of all matters concerning the rabble, safely ensconced in the hands of a well-credentialed, properly-connected, and sophisticated elite. The nation and its affairs are far too important to leave to the clamoring hordes, don't you know.

Posted by: Winthrop Q. Throckmorton, IV (my friends call me Biff, you may not) at May 25, 2016 05:30 PM (rznWS)

535 On gun rights - the first time there is a gun-related tragedy that gets round-the-clock media coverage, Trump will turn every last ounce of his "fightiness" on gun owners. All that Vince-Foster, JFK-assassination vitriol its fun to see leveled against political opponents will be aimed straight at gun owners, and the media will amplify it a thousandfold. Gun rights will be curtailed, and the media will discover a newfound respect for President Trump, and he will glory in it.

Posted by: person at May 25, 2016 05:31 PM (mFkVC)

536 THIA

Posted by: Lizzy at May 25, 2016 05:28 PM (NOIQH)

-----

THIA????

Posted by: fixerupper at May 25, 2016 05:31 PM (8XRCm)

537 alexthechick: Didn't see your 461. Sorry if I misunderstood your position. I still see variations on this argument quite a bit, and I still don't buy them.
Posted by: JPS at May 25, 2016 05:23 PM (mH5lL)

Yeah, my rant isn't directed at you or others like you, or, you know, me who decided that game theory determined that voting Romney or McCain or Dole was a better choice.

It's directed at those who presented and held the up to now inviolable position that You Must Vote Republican Always You Idiot Child Except Not Now Because Um Reasons Okay And How Dare You Point Out My Idiotic Hypocrisy You Meanie.

I reject, entirely, that a vote is owed, not earned. I further reject, entirely, the notion that I am not to point out that those who previously held the owed not earned position sure as fuck seem to have discovered an exception to that rule.

I will probably be forced to vote Trump (oh fuck me running) because I'm in what will likely be a swing state and it makes my skin crawl to think that Hillary will be President.

I would rather bathe in wolf spiders than that happening.

So, yes, I am now on Team Trump: Because Bathing In Wolf Spiders Is Still Better Than Hillary But I Totally Understand If You Disagree.

*hunts for eye heroin*

Posted by: alexthechick- Darth Sugartits at May 25, 2016 05:31 PM (mf5HN)

538
I disagree with Ace on this point though: 'One of two people will be president in January'.

After today's revelations, it is more likely (not probably, just more likely) she will be forced to step down as the nominee, in which case Biden or Bernie swoops in.
Posted by: bathtubby at May 25, 2016 04:23 PM (NQeWt)
-------------------

I agree, and I just heard on the radio that Trump has now gone there: stated that Obama is going to slide Biden in at the last minute.

I hope he has a plan to defeat Plagiarizin' Joe. Is anyone else here as worried as I am about a Biden/Warren ticket than a Hillary/Dildo one?

Posted by: iforgot at May 25, 2016 05:31 PM (pC96u)

539
Yeah! If you vote for Hillary, you can go to hell!

#Benghazi

Posted by: Bruce With a Wang! at May 25, 2016 05:31 PM (iQIUe)

540 We "can" survive Hillary but, as with nuclear weapons, are you sure you'd want to.

Posted by: dissent555 at May 25, 2016 05:31 PM (VFhMt)

541 Fucking spare me. I was uninformed because I didn't consider Rubios flip flop on immigration disqualifying and heard all about how we had to get behind Cruz because he was the only one everyone could stomach voting for. Except he was a terrible candidate that never had a chance against Hillary or Trump. You know how all of this could have been avoided? Voting for Rubio, who's faults should be much more forgivable than Trumps unless you have an irrational hatred for him. But sure I'll listen to your argument about settling NOW

Posted by: Pdiddy at May 25, 2016 05:31 PM (JoPp5)

542 We can survive Hillary. There is a decent chance we would not survive Trump.

#NeverTrump.
Posted by: sauropod at May 25, 2016 05:28 PM (Xhywj)

Suuuuuuuiiiiiiiiiciiiiiiiiide!

Posted by: Helium and sauropod at May 25, 2016 05:31 PM (1VVAD)

543
but send a graft machine to slay a graft machine.
Posted by: sven10077 at May 25, 2016 05:30 PM (g8Hfr)

And then the graft machine slayer continues the graft? Or how does it work?

Posted by: chique d'afrique, former Republican at May 25, 2016 05:31 PM (iLoHX)

544 if Trump had run against Hitler in 1933, how would you vote?

Posted by: loud bald commercial guy at May 25, 2016 05:16 PM (nFwvY)

If Stalin ran against Hitler how would you vote?

Posted by: Joe Hallenbeck at May 25, 2016 05:31 PM (V9ATq)

545 The affairs of state are such that the fate of the nation rests upon Donald Trump.

Ponder that, and despair.

Posted by: the guy that moves pianos for a living at May 25, 2016 05:32 PM (tEDMc)

546 or maybe it's that Trump's policies are actually really moderate to liberal stance and his presidency completely destroys the conservative movement because it would be 8 years at least before a potential conservative could again make the case for limited government.

Our choice is a lifelong Democrat who wants to use the government against enemies and Hillary Clinton.

Posted by: Carl at May 25, 2016 05:32 PM (tEVs6)

547 Asking "Isn't Hillary worse than Trump?" is like asking "Isn't cancer worse than AIDS?"

Posted by: V the K at May 25, 2016 05:32 PM (IrDVA)

548 I will remain #NeverTrump, because the man is embarassing, and long ago passed the threshold of behaviour that I'd be willing to defend, as Ace himself once felt. Because he does not care one single lick about limited government, I don't see any advantage in placing myself in a position where I'd have to defend his shallow opinions and douchebag behaviour.

And, frankly, by going all-in for morphing the conservative movement into a Front Nationale analogue dominated by White Identity politics and centered around the uneducated working class, Trump is deliberately excluding people like me, and so be it.

I am willing to defend Gary Johnson or Austin Petersen's heresies, oddities and weaknesses because at least I know they believe in small government and individualism. I see no point in lowering myself into gutter defending somebody who doesn't share any of my values or interests, and in fact is actively working AGAINST my middle-class interests by advocating for tariffs.

Posted by: cjw at May 25, 2016 05:32 PM (onydf)

549 >>>540 We "can" survive Hillary but, as with nuclear weapons, are you sure you'd want to.

Fuuuuuuck yeah!!!!!!

Posted by: LOL Kabong, Weekend Mad Max LARPer at May 25, 2016 05:32 PM (MCmqp)

550 Just popping in to remind everybody that I voted for the Clintons.

Once.

Posted by: Vince Foster at May 25, 2016 05:32 PM (4ErVI)

551 #NEVERTRUMP #4:

It's the Spring Gala at Bushwood, and none of the #NEVERTRUMPERs want to dance with Al Czervik.

Posted by: furious at May 25, 2016 05:32 PM (8lw4l)

552 >>All the trojan democrats are coming out of the woodwork on this thread

Lotta phony conservatives, too.

Posted by: JackStraw at May 25, 2016 05:33 PM (/tuJf)

553 #NeverHillary

Posted by: ThunderB at May 25, 2016 05:33 PM (zOTsN)

554 Trump will turn every last ounce of his "fightiness" on gun owners.
Posted by: person at May 25, 2016 05:31 PM (mFkVC)

-----

Ya know... hyperbole is an excellent way to make point by taking examples to the extreme.

The danger is when you start believing your own bullshit.

Posted by: fixerupper at May 25, 2016 05:33 PM (8XRCm)

555 If Stalin ran against Hitler how would you vote?
Posted by: Joe Hallenbeck at May 25, 2016 05:31 PM (V9ATq)

Well Stalin did win that one. Just saying

Posted by: Nevergiveup at May 25, 2016 05:33 PM (Ozsfq)

556 Hillary will be terrible, awful, unsupportable...but Trump gives us a nontrivial chance of complete catastrophe. This is a man who impersonates his own publicist to plant positive stories, maintains decades-long feuds about dopey things like his hand size, and openly wishes that he could get rid of First Amendment protections for people that give him verbal booboos.

WE OWN THIS NONSENSE NOW! I seriously fear this man could either provoke military confrontation or avoid NEEDED military action based on his particular ego needs of the day. He could trigger a trade war based on a few lines of copy in a foreign newspaper. But hey, sure, let's all get on board...

I'll admit, the ceiling on a Trump administration is higher than Hillary's. He could pleasantly surprise us, especially on judicial appointments. But I am convinced that his floor is lower, perhaps much lower. I put nothing past this man, he acts on barely-honed instincts and disdains knowledge. And he'd be OURS.

Sorry, I'm walking.

Posted by: A Solid 5 at May 25, 2016 05:33 PM (bD9bj)

557 539
Yeah! If you vote for Hillary, you can go to hell!

#Benghazi
Posted by: Bruce With a Wang! at May 25, 2016 05:31 PM (iQIUe)

Everyone spent so much time summoning SMOD, they never considered what they'd do if they actually had to vote for it.

#NoSympathyForNeverTrump

Posted by: First-Rate Political Hack at May 25, 2016 05:33 PM (1VVAD)

558 502 Posted by: Lizzy at May 25, 2016 05:27 PM (NOIQH)

John McCain is when I accepted that yes, I am a political whore.

I voted for a man I have loathed since the Keating Five broke...

Posted by: sven10077 at May 25, 2016 05:33 PM (g8Hfr)

559 And it's all bravado that in the end will mean nothing.

Posted by: Monsieur Moo Moo at May 25, 2016 05:29 PM (r4VQU)
=================================================

You know how people actually vote? How do you do that?

Posted by: grammie winger at May 25, 2016 05:33 PM (dFi94)

560 535 On gun rights - the first time there is a gun-related tragedy that gets round-the-clock media coverage, Trump will turn every last ounce of his "fightiness" on gun owners. All that Vince-Foster, JFK-assassination vitriol its fun to see leveled against political opponents will be aimed straight at gun owners, and the media will amplify it a thousandfold. Gun rights will be curtailed, and the media will discover a newfound respect for President Trump, and he will glory in it.
Posted by: person at May 25, 2016 05:31 PM (mFkVC)

____

I think you're wrong. But let's say you're right. How is this any worse than Hillary?

I'm sure Trump will stab me in the back on a few things. The key word is **FEW**. Hillary is a communist and will do everything she can to fuck tis country up for good. So no matter how bad Trump will be, he will be nowhere near as bad as Hillary.

Posted by: Monsieur Moo Moo at May 25, 2016 05:33 PM (r4VQU)

561 Which candidate will give me a pony?

Posted by: Village Idiot's Apprentice at May 25, 2016 05:34 PM (dEmhF)

562 "...3. Attempting to save one's professional reputation? I get this one myself -- someone asked me why I was so anti-Trump, and I said the man was so vulgar, stupid, and crass that he made it necessary to oppose him simply to preserve one's professional standing.

So I get that idea. I get that idea an awful lot. ..."

I've tried before, maybe this time somebody might listen. The irony here is that it's THIS attitude that's unsophisticated!!!

I see the vulgarity of Trump to be an absolutely essential tool! Who would have thought that a billionaire born with a silver spoon in his mouth would EVER, in a million years, because a virtual FOLK HERO to the working class? This is a COMMUNICATION MODE - part of Trump's Jedi Magic Mojo! All the professional politicians sound like what they are - lawyers. Fiorina sounded like the nuns that used to teach us in Catholic school. And Carson ... well, who knows? He puts everybody to sleep.

When I see a video with Trump telling somebody to go "f" themselves, my reaction is that "I wouldn't say that myself, and I don't even know who he's talking about, but I'm pretty confident whoever it is DESERVES it, and I enjoy hearing it!"

"Stupid"? You gotta be kidding - the man is obviously brilliant, and just beat a plethora of professionals at their own game, at the highest level. He's even got the Ivy League credentials that the intellectual snobs insist on.

What you're REALLY saying is that "He doesn't obey the rules of what the Overton Window is supposed to be." And that means you've become a tool of the Left, because they've been controlling that for a LONG time.

Or do you mean "ignorant"? The silliness there is this pretentious attitude that the contest for POTUS is one of who can show themselves to be the dominant policy wonk. That the masses who actually vote give a rat's ass about that. No, he's not an expert on the Constitution, or of the inner workings of vast numbers of government agencies. We've already seen that he's looking for a VP who can help him with that. Unlike the current occupant of the WH, Trump surrounds himself with the very best people, and then actually LISTENS to them. That's the way really successful people work.

Posted by: Optimizer at May 25, 2016 05:34 PM (jPHi7)

563 Whatever happened to "Burn It Down"? Anyway, I'm still free on November 8... And by "free" I mean "doing all the booze, blow, and hookers I can lay my hands on!

Posted by: Zettai Ryoiki at May 25, 2016 05:34 PM (kP16F)

564 Sorry, I'm walking.
Posted by: A Solid 5 at May 25, 2016 05:33 PM (bD9bj)
It's ok.
hit ya/split ya.

Posted by: First-Rate Political Hack at May 25, 2016 05:34 PM (1VVAD)

565 it makes my skin crawl to think that Hillary will be President.

I would rather bathe in wolf spiders than that happening.

C'mon Hillary!

Posted by: Wolf spiders at May 25, 2016 05:34 PM (LAe3v)

566 559 And it's all bravado that in the end will mean nothing.

Posted by: Monsieur Moo Moo at May 25, 2016 05:29 PM (r4VQU)
=================================================

You know how people actually vote? How do you do that?

Posted by: grammie winger at May 25, 2016 05:33 PM (dFi94)

_____

I know that people like to say a lot of shit online and then do the exact opposite in the real world.

Posted by: Monsieur Moo Moo at May 25, 2016 05:34 PM (r4VQU)

567 Trump will not destroy the conservative movement. They did that to themselves.

Posted by: @votermom at May 25, 2016 05:34 PM (7lVbc)

568 554

So you don't think Trump will turn on his supporters with all of his nastiness when it proves convenient for Trump? Why not?

Posted by: person at May 25, 2016 05:34 PM (mFkVC)

569 Has anyone figured out (if true) why Bill Clinton encouraged Trump to run?

Posted by: Mimzey

If that is true, I could totally understand. Billy Jeff doesn't want to be under public scrutiny. He wants to travel around the world, get as much ass as possible, collect large speaking fees, nurse their foundation scam, and not have to live with his "wife". With an HRC win, he would have to put on the performance of his life as the 'first man' and would hate it.

Posted by: Cheri at May 25, 2016 05:34 PM (oiNtH)

570 So, yes, I am now on Team Trump: Because Bathing In Wolf Spiders Is Still Better Than Hillary But I Totally Understand If You Disagree.

*hunts for eye heroin*
Posted by: alexthechick- Darth Sugartits at May 25, 2016 05:31 PM (mf5HN)

Is this too hard an attitude to have? (Not the eye heroin thing.

)

Posted by: chique d'afrique, former Republican at May 25, 2016 05:34 PM (iLoHX)

571 >>>>>Voting for Rubio<<<<<<

Fuck Rubio. If he wanted me to vote for him when he ran for president, he shouldn't have lied to me when he ran for senate.

Posted by: the guy that moves pianos for a living at May 25, 2016 05:34 PM (tEDMc)

572 >>>552 >>All the trojan democrats are coming out of the woodwork on this thread
Lotta phony conservatives, too.

Heh. Yep.

They tend to bark the loudest.

Posted by: LOL Kabong at May 25, 2016 05:35 PM (MCmqp)

573 548 Posted by: cjw at May 25, 2016 05:32 PM (onydf)

Small government and individualism being Johnson's Glee Mafia Joy about Cake Baking and his sidekick's love of gun confiscation....

yeah...we're all whores to whatever degree....

I just try not to be a whore to my own ego.

Posted by: sven10077 at May 25, 2016 05:35 PM (g8Hfr)

574 Lotta phony conservatives, too.
Posted by: JackStraw at May 25, 2016 05:33 PM (/tuJf)

Well most conservatives I know would sell their souls to defeat that FAB...and I use "sell their souls" very purposely

Posted by: Nevergiveup at May 25, 2016 05:35 PM (Ozsfq)

575 "Here's another knee-slapper: "Oh noes, Trump will cause irreparable harm to the conservative movement!"

There is no conservative movement anymore. Unless you count the Mark Levin-listeners with a Constitution fetish who still think Ted Cruz could have won.

I loves me the Constitution but it's not the answer some think it is.

Posted by: Ignoramus at May 25, 2016 05:35 PM (r1fLd)

576 We can survive Hillary. There is a decent chance we would not survive Trump.

#NeverTrump.
Posted by: sauropod at May 25, 2016 05:28 PM (Xhywj)

I am sorry man, but this is a bit crazy. If we take the position that the country has not been destroyed by 8 years of Obama (questionable), with his frenzied, adoring press core, then I doubt Trump could destroy it.

I think he is a smarmy jackass too, but I do not think he is evil.

Could be wrong.

Posted by: Aetius451AD at May 25, 2016 05:35 PM (3ZoRf)

577 And, frankly, by going all-in for morphing the conservative movement into a Front Nationale analogue dominated by White Identity politics and centered around the uneducated working class, Trump is deliberately excluding people like me, and so be it.

And this is it. Snobbery. Being willing to vote against Hillary Or God forbid for Trump means you are a white racist and a dummy

Well

Fuck off

Posted by: ThunderB at May 25, 2016 05:35 PM (zOTsN)

578 This bullshit that Hillary is the safer choice astounds me. Does everyone forget that Bills was manning the helm during the gestation of Al Qaeda? All the shit we went through in the early 2000s was attributable to policies or weaknesses of Billdawg! Bubbles, global terrorism, you name it - oh, sure Hillbeast will make sure everything stays duct-taped together while she's in charge, but the second her fat ass is out, expect the shit to hit the fan-thing. Plus guaranteed immature shit like breaking keyboards and stealing furniture. No thanks! Trump may be a wild card, but he's wild both ways, and let's face it, we are a nation of dog faces and short-fingered vulgarians so who gives a fuck what the Eurosnobs think?

Posted by: Banana Splits Guy at May 25, 2016 05:35 PM (ftx9F)

579 If Trump did visit Pedo Island, the chances are that Billy Jeff did

-
So they're Eskimo brothers?

Posted by: Anonosaurus Wrecks at May 25, 2016 05:35 PM (Nwg0u)

580 And, frankly, by going all-in for morphing the conservative movement into a Front Nationale analogue dominated by White Identity politics and centered around the uneducated working class, Trump is deliberately excluding people like me, and so be it.

Dude, I've said it a thousand times. Subtlety is the key to a good troll. Don't hit people over the head with it or you lose credibility.

Posted by: Wolf spiders at May 25, 2016 05:36 PM (LAe3v)

581 a guide to trojan democrats:

1) use "principles" as a reason to demonize trump and his supporters
2) scream hitler and/or "alt-right" at every turn in reference to trump, trump's supporters and his staff
3) see above

Posted by: runner at May 25, 2016 05:36 PM (c6/9Q)

582 Posted by: Optimizer at May 25, 2016 05:34 PM (jPHi7)

+1000

Posted by: @votermom at May 25, 2016 05:36 PM (7lVbc)

583 It's directed at those who presented and held the up to now inviolable position that You Must Vote Republican Always You Idiot Child Except Not Now Because Um Reasons Okay And How Dare You Point Out My Idiotic Hypocrisy You Meanie.

Posted by: alexthechick- Darth Sugartits at May 25, 2016 05:31 PM (mf5HN)

On the flip side, you have all the people who openly opposed any GOP nominee that didn't measure up to their RonPaulian level... who threw temper-tantrums at the GOP conventions... and openly stated they were voting for Obama...

Those same people now demanding that we all vote Trump or else get purged from the party.

F**k them.

Posted by: The Political Hat at May 25, 2016 05:36 PM (Z8xbi)

584 If Stalin ran against Hitler how would you vote?
Posted by: Joe Hallenbeck

don't be ridiculous. Hillary can't run against herself.

Posted by: x at May 25, 2016 05:36 PM (nFwvY)

585 I don't get that folks think DT is a bigger risk than Hillary.

Hillary is Hugo Chavez with a Robert Mugabe complex, with a side order of Fidel Castro.

DT is "a buffoon".

I'll roll the dice with that.

Posted by: dissent555 at May 25, 2016 05:36 PM (hQDvN)

586 *watches verbal melee*

Oh boy, is this great!

Posted by: Kent Dorfman at May 25, 2016 05:36 PM (JO9+V)

587 It makes no difference to me that the LIbertarians are trying to triangulate with their ticket.

Donald Trump is going to win my state. He's not as detestable in general as Hillary Clinton but that's easy. I see disaster regardless of who wins because that's the trajectory for this stupid country and we ALL, including myself, deserve it.

And the reason I can say that with a great deal of certainty is that I am old enough to remember when candidates like Trump and Hillary would never have made it as far as they have.

And I can remember when 2 fags getting married was a punchline to a lame joke not constitutional law.

And BLM would have been beaten into submission about a year ago and any public official who implemented co-ed showers and toilets would have been dealt with quickly.

But we don't have it in us anymore to deal with all of these issues correctly because the FBI, ATF, and god knows what Fed agency will throw anyone that tries into a deep hole for life.

So this is our downward trajectory and Trump or Hillary or Gary Johnson, are not only not going to change it, they'll speed it up.

How did we get here? Slowly at first, and soon, really fast.

Posted by: Skunky Choom at May 25, 2016 05:36 PM (CbGSW)

588 We need a kitten thread.Or a puppy thread.Or a sweater puppy thread.

Posted by: steevy at May 25, 2016 05:36 PM (B48dK)

589 There's a still a chance that Trump will fight for something we believe in... we're not going to get that from Ryan, McConnell and the GOPe... most people will take the wall at this point

Posted by: George S Patton at May 25, 2016 05:36 PM (12kBq)

590 I think *that* "conservative movement" deserves to
be irreparably damaged. If NRO and Fox News and Kristol, et. al imploded
and disappeared, I would not shed a tear. Because then we could clear
the decks and start again.

Posted by: OregonMuse at May 25, 2016 05:30 PM (N1Wpo)
That is what is happening with Trump as the "leader" of the conservative movement now. It's being redefined into European-style nationalist populism.

Posted by: chemjeff at May 25, 2016 05:37 PM (uAvJJ)

591
But some of us will stay #NeverTrump because we are truly appalled by his lack of character and sewer politics.

He should learn to grovel and lose like a gentleman just as those who came before.

Posted by: Bertram Cabot Jr. at May 25, 2016 05:37 PM (k4M/B)

592 575 "Here's another knee-slapper: "Oh noes, Trump will cause irreparable harm to the conservative movement!"

There is no conservative movement anymore. Unless you count the Mark Levin-listeners with a Constitution fetish who still think Ted Cruz could have won.

I loves me the Constitution but it's not the answer some think it is.
Posted by: Ignoramus at May 25, 2016 05:35 PM (r1fLd)

_____

Yep.

Posted by: Monsieur Moo Moo at May 25, 2016 05:37 PM (r4VQU)

593 I can't speak for anyone else, but my opposition to Trump is not virtue-signaling. He lacks self-control, is vengeful. I can't trust him with the power of the presidency. Still praying the delegates will stop him.

Posted by: Michael Bates at May 25, 2016 05:37 PM (Bw9Rj)

594 While I'm ok with people not voting for Trump, I can't understand why that automatically means some of you have to vote for Hillary. Just write somebody in. But for God's sake don't for The Vagina That Came From the Deep!

Posted by: Dack Thrombosis at May 25, 2016 05:37 PM (4ErVI)

595 588 Steevy for president!

Posted by: Weasel at May 25, 2016 05:37 PM (e3bId)

596 alexthechick @537:

"So, yes, I am now on Team Trump: Because Bathing In Wolf Spiders Is Still Better Than Hillary But I Totally Understand If You Disagree."

I say again: You rock.

With a heartfelt big tip of the hat to chique d'afrique, on the other side of the argument, while I'm at it.

Posted by: JPS at May 25, 2016 05:37 PM (mH5lL)

597 Trump is deliberately excluding people like me, and so be it.

-----

So...... are you Muslim Refugee -or- an illegal alien.??

Posted by: fixerupper at May 25, 2016 05:37 PM (8XRCm)

598 575

See, this is really, really dangerous. The Constitution IT the answer, and most of our problems come from ignoring it. The minute we start thinking of it as some obsolete old piece of parchment, we come untethered from anything that makes us recognizably American, and new vistas of disaster open up.

Posted by: person at May 25, 2016 05:38 PM (mFkVC)

599 so they can try to pass the hot potato again in 2024?

Posted by: mst3k at May 25, 2016 05:25 PM
Ho-Lee-Fuck. Just think about that Hillary until 2024! Damn, I just threw up in my mouth allot.

Posted by: Minnfidel at May 25, 2016 05:38 PM (IJBEN)

600 Which candidate will give me a pony?

Posted by: Village Idiot's Apprentice at May 25, 2016 05:34 PM (dEmhF)

Why, hello there!

Posted by: Vermin Supreme at May 25, 2016 05:38 PM (Z8xbi)

601 Well I know one thing for sure. If Trump loses, they'll all be blaming the evangelicals again.

"The evangelicals didn't turn out! You know, those people that we hate? They didn't vote for us!"

To be followed by, "if those SoCons would leave the Party, we could win more elections".

Ya. Square that circle.

Posted by: grammie winger at May 25, 2016 05:38 PM (dFi94)

602 584 If Stalin ran against Hitler how would you vote?
Posted by: Joe Hallenbeck

don't be ridiculous. Hillary can't run against herself.
Posted by: x at May 25, 2016 05:36 PM (nFwvY)

==========

Hahahaha!

Posted by: Bruce With a Wang! at May 25, 2016 05:38 PM (iQIUe)

603 2. Showing off to one's liberal comrades that one isn't One Of That Kind of Conservative? That is, Virtue Signalling?
---

That's all it is. Conservative isn't cool and our cowardice about being uncool was a big part of losing the culture war.

Anyone who argues that there is some overriding principle which precludes their voting for Trump - the lesser evil - has never voted. They've been "least bad" forever. These born again keyboard philosophers pulled the lever for Romney, McCain, both Bushes, and Dole. Even Reagan had imperfections from pure conservative/liberty-minded principles.

Unless you've been writing in Perot or Buchanan this whole time (and given your unflinching principles, how could you?), it's silly to draw the line at Trump.

Ace's criticisms of Trump are correct; and his reasons for dropping this #nevertrump moreso. We've likely already lost the Republic but we certainly won't salvage anything by giving the election to the worst candidate, and there is no right-leaning constituency of any consequence (ie, which can pull a national election) remaining to tarnish or dishonor. If Trump either does better than Hillary or blows up the establishment right to create space for more perfect leadership in the future - he doesn't even need to do both, just one of the above - he was the right call.

Posted by: 0302 at May 25, 2016 05:39 PM (wx6iv)

604 NeverTrump is MSNBC wannabes who don't want to admit they are MSNBC wannabees. And they can go fuck themselves with Rachel Madcows dildo.

Posted by: Monsieur Moo Moo at May 25, 2016 05:39 PM (r4VQU)

605 I always said I'd skip this "election" because I think the results will be anti-American. No matter the actual vote numbers, the government workers will report the vote totals they want and they will never spend a single night in jail.

In short, the republic is dead and has been for at least 8 years. Voting (even if Cruz was in the mix) is not going to change anything for anyone from now on until there is a nuclear-armed civil war.

Wake me when the sirens hit. Until then, I'll be playing computer games.

Posted by: Inspector Cussword at May 25, 2016 05:39 PM (AdgOS)

606 But some of us will stay #NeverTrump because we are truly appalled by his lack of character and sewer politics.

-------

WORD!!!

**fistbump**

Posted by: Dole, McCain & Romney at May 25, 2016 05:39 PM (8XRCm)

607 486 This is why the right never wins anything.

No, the right never wins anything because only about 10% of the population gives a shit about Constitutional order and rule of law. The rest want the federal government to fix their problems and kiss their boo-boos. They want crave easy answers to complex problems, and want existential problems like Social Security and Medicare to be completely ignored. They want the government to smite their enemies both real and imagined.

Well we've got just what the 90% want this election. This is why the right never wins.

Posted by: Baron Von Ottomatic at May 25, 2016 05:39 PM (ktzHq)

608 581

Guide to "Trojan Democrats"

1) is Trump

Posted by: person at May 25, 2016 05:39 PM (mFkVC)

609 *waves at Lizzy*

Come, sit by me and we will throw jarts at Bill Kristol. It's fun for the whole family!

Is this too hard an attitude to have? (Not the eye heroin thing. )
Posted by: chique d'afrique, former Republican at May 25, 2016 05:34 PM (iLoHX)

Apparently.

Posted by: alexthechick- Darth Sugartits at May 25, 2016 05:39 PM (mf5HN)

610 I don't care who you vote for. The W. lies are historic.

Posted by: RioBravo at May 25, 2016 05:26 PM (NUqwG)

Accepting liberal lies just to come down on the GOP nominee's side isn't exactly doing the party any favors. What other long-standing party or movement positions or mantras or elected officials must we jettison because Trump will build a wall and win and hey finally someone brought up Vince Foster?

Posted by: Cody's Feed Bag at May 25, 2016 05:40 PM (XiVKO)

611 It's directed at those who presented and held the up to now
inviolable position that You Must Vote Republican Always You Idiot Child
Except Not Now Because Um Reasons Okay And How Dare You Point Out My
Idiotic Hypocrisy You Meanie.

Posted by: alexthechick- Darth Sugartits at May 25, 2016 05:31 PM (mf5HN)

alexthechick, I think Joe Hallenbeck had it about right at 529. With the other hold-your-nose candidates, they all at least passed a minimum threshold of conservative beliefs and principles. Trump doesn't even pass that.

Posted by: chemjeff at May 25, 2016 05:40 PM (uAvJJ)

612 583 Posted by: The Political Hat at May 25, 2016 05:36 PM (Z8xbi)

Show me any regular here who is a principled conservative who is thrilled to be resigned to pull for Trump's toupee...

What is *is* hat.

Trump has not tried to ram Amigo Grande! down my throat while calling me heartless for wanting AT LEAST Mexico's southern border policy and he did not fellate Obama the weekend before the election....

That was the GOP main body not Duh Donald.

Posted by: sven10077 at May 25, 2016 05:40 PM (g8Hfr)

613 Gotta ask. Do you mean Gent as in gentleman, or unguent, as in salve?

What? I have it spelled wrong?

Son of a [expletive deleted]. I do have it mispelled.

Autoclue failed me again. I am still clueless.

Too poor to even buy a clue. No wonder everyone hates my books and want my heroine to die.

Again, I am forced to abase myself before the power of the assembled Moron Horde ™

I feel like my trouser fly has been unzipped for the last #twoweeks.

Posted by: Glorious Ungent at May 25, 2016 05:41 PM (kBd14)

614 Hillary is pure evil. Trump is the exact same flavor of pure evil. The only difference between the two is that Trump is a better liar. I will not sell my soul to vote for either of them.

Posted by: Dr. Isopod at May 25, 2016 05:41 PM (sVClu)

615 >>>>581 2) scream hitler and/or "alt-right" at every turn in reference to trump, trump's supporters and his staff

So, should I preference all Trump/Trump Booster criticism with 'Not all Trump Supporters' and 'The Trump 2016 is a campaign of peace?'

Posted by: LOL Kabong at May 25, 2016 05:41 PM (MCmqp)

616 He lacks self-control, is vengeful. I can't trust him with the power of the presidency.
Posted by: Michael Bates

Hillary is a fat dunk who keeps enemies lists. what was your point?

Posted by: x at May 25, 2016 05:41 PM (nFwvY)

617 #NeverTrumpers?

I just figure they were just all ballsdeep(tm) for the UniParty (right wing / left wing, doesn't matter) but don't want to admit it.

Posted by: Burnt Toast at May 25, 2016 05:41 PM (iYTlX)

618 >>>Do you guys actually want Hillary Clinton in office

No but I am unwilling to support Trump to stop her. And you know what. That's a reasonable position. I don't want there to be starving children in the world either. But there is only so much I think it's right to do to stop that.

>>>Just put you ego to the side and remember this election isn't about your ego, it's about America and our shared future.

I think there is shared future which is better because, there is a line someplace somewhere, a Citizen will not cross merely for hatred of his opponents; a candidate so repugnant, that they actually draw a line and stick to it.

I don't know what the future holds for America for certain. But with half the nation wound up between outright socialism, and socialism in all but name, and the other half in plurality supporting Trump. Freedom isn't in that future. It dies for lack of representation.

If we want to approach this purely pragmatically, fine, I'm thinking post collapse now. Trump has not convinced me he can or will stop it, or, given the best realistic scenario is to get a new candidate in 2024, even stave it off long enough to get another shot.

In other words, HE HASN'T DONE THE BARE MINIMUMS TO GET MY VOTE. Nor does he believe he should have to.

Here's the line.

1. Make me think we can make it through 8 years with him in charge without serious irreparable damage to the Republic.
2. Make it so I don't feel like a total dick when I tell my kids I voted for him. That there is someplace a minimum standard of character.

I'm not asking for a lot. Trump makes it a point of pride that he doesn't and won't provide even that.

Posted by: MikeTheMoose at May 25, 2016 05:41 PM (0q2P7)

619 This is why the right never wins anything. You're all about idealism and perfection. The left doesn't give a fuck about anything but winning elections. And those wins lead to incremental steps towards their end goal of worldwide communism. Wake the fuck up.
Posted by: Monsieur Moo Moo at May 25, 2016 05:25 PM (r4VQU)

*Skims news*

Huh, it would appear that the left wants free stuff and lives on false claims of victimhood...

And look, Democrats are selling free stuff and victimhood!

Now... Let's see, conservatives want smaller government and personal accountability.

And Trump is selling free stuff and zero personal accountability, but he also calls people names.

Uh huh... Republicans lose because Democrats don't care about perfect candidates. Bullshit. Democrats win because they listen to their base, believe the same insanity, and fight endlesslesly for more free shit and less accountability.

That's why their base turns out and Republicans don't. People WANT to vote FOR something. Not cast votes for someone they hate because they hate someone else more.

Posted by: Damiano at May 25, 2016 05:41 PM (71OEY)

620 Perhaps Dems and Repubs in Congress could reach an agreement to impeach and remove whoever wins. We would all sleep better leading up to this horrific election.

Posted by: Raul Johnson at May 25, 2016 05:41 PM (MiBr0)

621 The best version is, let's say Trump is actually not a disaster, and things turn out okayish.

We end up with a center-left-nationalist vs. far-left-internationalist part mix.

In other words, we become Europe.

I'm already seeing people talking down the Constitution already in favor of this new nationalism. Had to happen sooner or later.

Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of the Sith at May 25, 2016 05:41 PM (wB8Tg)

622 Guide to "Trojan Democrats"

Reservoir tip? Ribbed?

Posted by: Count de Monet at May 25, 2016 05:41 PM (JO9+V)

623 Spite? Ego? Forgot to add the "butthurt" because our precious Ted Cruz didn't get the nom. Unfortunately I'm at work whenever a subject like this pops up that I would like to elaborate my reasons for my distrust of Trump and his loathsome supporters. The F'ing bashing and blaming of conservatism, here and outside of this blog. The convenient way Trumpanzees mix the GOPe and actual conservatives together is the height of intellectual dishonesty or laziness. Trump himself pretty much like the GOPe has done to us for years said FU conservatives we don't don't need you. Yeah the Supreme Court, oh for sure a principled believer in constitutionalism is going to be appointed by Trump, LMFAO. Congrats to Trumpsters for destroying the GOP, you got your wish, now have fun with your movement.

Posted by: JROD at May 25, 2016 05:41 PM (N1B3M)

624 With the other hold-your-nose candidates, they all at least passed a minimum threshold of conservative beliefs and principles. Trump doesn't even pass that.

Posted by: chemjeff

The minimum threshold is a movable target, subject to the alternative.

Posted by: pep at May 25, 2016 05:42 PM (LAe3v)

625 Ho-Lee-Fuck. Just think about that Hillary until 2024! Damn, I just threw up in my mouth allot.
Posted by: Minnfidel at May 25, 2016 05:38 PM (IJBEN)

Fuck.

Fuckity fuck fuck.

*goes to hunt wolf spiders to fill up bathtub*

This so both sucks and blows in the non-life affirming way.

Posted by: alexthechick- Darth Sugartits at May 25, 2016 05:42 PM (mf5HN)

626 I love when the 'principled" third party crowd here can go after Trump for any or al of his faults but never seem to care about how far left the FAB is and what a FAB victory would mean to America? I wonder why?

Posted by: Nevergiveup at May 25, 2016 05:42 PM (Ozsfq)

627 >>Well most conservatives I know would sell their souls to defeat that FAB...and I use "sell their souls" very purposely

You know different conservatives than I do. Conservatives I know actually look at Trump's record, not what he is saying to get elected, and understand that he has been a liberal Democrat all his life. And don't believe a word he says seeing as how he has already gone back on some of his biggest "policy positions" before even getting into the general election.

And then they would ask why are you flaking for him so relentlessly and trashing anyone who doesn't agree that he we need to get onboard right now with a guy you have absolutely zero idea of what he will do. Enough about Hillary, make a positive case for Trump. He sure as hell hasn't.

Posted by: JackStraw at May 25, 2016 05:42 PM (/tuJf)

628 OK. OK. "If Hillary walkered against Stalin, who would you vote for?"

Posted by: Anonosaurus Wrecks at May 25, 2016 05:42 PM (Nwg0u)

629 It's ego, plain and simple.

If I can't get my way, then I burn the place down.

It really is that simple.

People will try and dazzle with stupid arguments like "trump is a liberal too, so what the difference?"

The Left sure has figured out Trump is not a fellow traveler.

Posted by: Jamers at May 25, 2016 05:42 PM (LZgax)

630 >> So, yes, I am now on Team Trump: Because Bathing In
>> Wolf Spiders Is Still Better Than Hillary But I Totally
>> Understand If You Disagree.

If the opposition were Bernie, I could accept sitting home and letting the process play out without me. Maybe, maybe not. He's an idiot, but apparently a fairly honest idiot.

If the opposition were Biden, likewise.

But Hillary? Her Nixonian paranoia has WITHOUT QUESTION exposed classified information to foreign powers; her failure to understand ITSEC requirements have probably given those same powers enough material to blackmail her as President.

Posted by: JEM at May 25, 2016 05:42 PM (o+SC1)

631 609
*waves at Lizzy*

Come, sit by me and we will throw jarts at Bill Kristol. It's fun for the whole family!

Is this too hard an attitude to have? (Not the eye heroin thing. )

Posted by: chique d'afrique, former Republican at May 25, 2016 05:34 PM (iLoHX)

Apparently.

Posted by: alexthechick- Darth Sugartits at May 25, 2016 05:39 PM (mf5HN)

*gives stink eye to AtC* Ahem. A yuuuuge box of wolf spiders has been mis-delivered to my house. How should I forward them to you? *shudders uncontrollably*

Posted by: Jane D'oh at May 25, 2016 05:43 PM (1ZOkK)

632 I've changed my mind...

i want to go on the cart.

Posted by: This Thread at May 25, 2016 05:43 PM (NvC7m)

633 What????

Quit #NeverTrump????

No way!

There is way way way more feather-preening and virtue-signaling which I wish to do.

Look...look at my beautiful, beautiful #NeverTrump plumage!

How shiny and virtuous it is!

Posted by: naturalfake at May 25, 2016 05:43 PM (0cMkb)

634 alexthechick, I think Joe Hallenbeck had it about right at 529. With the other hold-your-nose candidates, they all at least passed a minimum threshold of conservative beliefs and principles. Trump doesn't even pass that.
Posted by: chemjeff at May 25, 2016 05:40 PM (uAvJJ)

I think Trump is not a Conservative. What he's doing now is a hostile takeover of the GOP.
And because of all the knives in the back and selling out of the GOP, I support that. They've been asking for it.
Trump is a grenade being rolled into DC. No reason to put lipstick on him.

Posted by: @votermom at May 25, 2016 05:43 PM (7lVbc)

635 No, the right never wins anything because only about 10% of the population gives a shit about Constitutional order and rule of law. The rest want the federal government to fix their problems and kiss their boo-boos. They want crave easy answers to complex problems, and want existential problems like Social Security and Medicare to be completely ignored. They want the government to smite their enemies both real and imagined.

Well we've got just what the 90% want this election. This is why the right never wins.

____

No. The right never wins because the right never plays the long con. It's always looking for the grand slam, instead of a walk or single. Every time I hear someone talk about tax cuts on the right it's shit like my plan will cut $8T in taxes over the next 5 years. Great, except it has a less than 0% chance of happening. How about a plan that cuts $150B in taxes instead which has a pretty good chance of happening? Then once that's done, another $150B and another. You chip away away with a sing;e here and a single there until you've scored a run or two.

Democrats didn't turn the country into a socialist shithole in a year. It took them 100+ years.

Posted by: Monsieur Moo Moo at May 25, 2016 05:43 PM (r4VQU)

636 Those who say Trump has no more respect for the Constitution than Hillary are forgetting something: the media and the GOPe will rediscover their great respect for the Constitution once Trump is sworn in The media will go from lapdog to attack dog the second he takes his hand off the Bible.

They'll cover for Hill and her lies.

So if you want a functioning press again and an legislature who actually opposes a president (even when he is, on paper, a member of the same party) vote for Trump.

Posted by: Donna&&&&V (a white) (whitely brandishing ampersand privilege ) at May 25, 2016 05:43 PM (P8951)

637 I would probably vote for Trump if the election were today, only because Hillary is so bad, but I reserve the right to criticize him.

Anyone who thinks the Tianmen Square massacre and Putin are admirable has no business being in the WH.

I like the way he's fighting Hillary. That's all I like. Yesterday he went after Gov Martinez--so much for unifying the party behind him. Not so long ago he attacked Gov Walker for his heroic rescue of Wisconsin.

This clown is an authoritarian, and he would aim these same dirty tactics he uses against Hillary at you and me if we opposed him on anything. He's unfit for office, and at the very least needs very close supervision and control.

Posted by: stace at May 25, 2016 05:43 PM (ozZau)

638 Not sure how many principles I can afford this election

Posted by: ThunderB at May 25, 2016 05:43 PM (zOTsN)

639 What is *is* hat.

Posted by: sven10077 at May 25, 2016 05:40 PM (g8Hfr)

No, it isn't *is*. I don't have to associate with him, not even in the privacy of a voting booth.

The day after the election, I will quite openly work to purge the GOP of Trumpism... assuming I hadn't jumped ship by then.

Posted by: The Political Hat at May 25, 2016 05:43 PM (Z8xbi)

640 >>Come, sit by me and we will throw jarts at Bill Kristol. It's fun for the whole family!

*sidles over to AtC w/plate of congo bars*

Posted by: Lizzy at May 25, 2016 05:43 PM (NOIQH)

641 On the flip side, you have all the people who openly opposed any GOP nominee that didn't measure up to their RonPaulian level... who threw temper-tantrums at the GOP conventions... and openly stated they were voting for Obama...

Those same people now demanding that we all vote Trump or else get purged from the party.

F**k them.
Posted by: The Political Hat at May 25, 2016 05:36 PM (Z8xbi)

****************

Yep.

Posted by: Danube River Guide at May 25, 2016 05:43 PM (mcm0N)

642 I'm not ready to talk about my willingness to vote for Trump. I'll vote for him, but I don't want to talk about it. Ever.

I am, however, ready to go stand on the barricades in front of wherever his next speech is held. I have zero interest in going into the event, but I am incensed at those who are violently attacking those who do want to attend.

Posted by: TexasDan at May 25, 2016 05:44 PM (M0ddJ)

643 "Dole, McCain & Romney"

Dole supports Trump.

Posted by: Sexypig at May 25, 2016 05:44 PM (UBBWX)

644
I'm already seeing people talking down the Constitution already in favor of this new nationalism. Had to happen sooner or later.

Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of the Sith at May 25, 2016 05:41 PM (wB8Tg)
That's exactly what is happening.

Posted by: chemjeff at May 25, 2016 05:44 PM (uAvJJ)

645 I would take Biden over Hillary or Trump in a heartbeat.

Posted by: Bandersnatch, Team Lefty and Scamp at May 25, 2016 05:44 PM (1xUj/)

646 "No. The right never wins because the right never plays the long con. It's always looking for the grand slam, instead of a walk or single."

I have to agree with this.

Posted by: Donna&&&&V (a white) (whitely brandishing ampersand privilege ) at May 25, 2016 05:44 PM (P8951)

647
"We want a candidate not focused on icky social issues and Bible Thumping. We want a candidate that appears to the middle and the old Reagan Democrats. We want an outsider that will shake things up. We want a candidate that isnt afraid to speak his mind."

**pushes Trump to the front**

"No. No fucking way. Hell no. Id rather vote Hillary!!!!"

Posted by: Our Intellectual Betters at May 25, 2016 05:44 PM (8XRCm)

648 And I am a Christian, and an affirmative vote for Trump runs contrary to everything the Bible says about wisdom and leadership. Therefore, I will write in Cruz or someone else, and leave the results in God's hands. You may call that virtue signaling, but that's the truth of it. At the same time, I am not going to be publicly campaigning against Trump at this point. I'm just pretty much checked out of the election, except as a passive observer.
Posted by: Matt from WY at May 25, 2016 04:38 PM (RSa+S)

You might wanna give a little thought to the part about resisting the devil.

Trump is a buffoon, but I don't believe for a second at this point he's evil.

Hillary Clinton is an agent of evil and must be fought. Period.

Posted by: Blano at May 25, 2016 05:44 PM (VNhbF)

649 616 Posted by: x at May 25, 2016 05:41 PM (nFwvY)

Things Donald Trump has never said that Hillary has....

"My political opponents are my biggest enemy"

Hillary takes pride in hating Republicans openly on the campaign trail.

Fuck her and fuck those who refuse to see Medusa's reflection in their shield.

Posted by: sven10077 at May 25, 2016 05:45 PM (g8Hfr)

650 "No. The right never wins because the right never plays the long con. It's always looking for the grand slam, instead of a walk or single. Every time I hear someone talk about tax cuts on the right it's shit like my plan will cut $8T in taxes over the next 5 years. Great, except it has a less than 0% chance of happening. How about a plan that cuts $150B in taxes instead which has a pretty good chance of happening? Then once that's done, another $150B and another. You chip away away with a sing;e here and a single there until you've scored a run or two."

Sequester was good.

Posted by: Sexypig at May 25, 2016 05:45 PM (UBBWX)

651
Just think about that Hillary until 2024!

She'll look like Bernie by then.

Posted by: Bertram Cabot Jr. at May 25, 2016 05:45 PM (k4M/B)

652 I'm not #neverTrump, I think it's stupid posturing born of the exact same social signifying impulse that drives most of what the left does.

Nonetheless, articles like this fail to sway my vote. I know and agree with the laundry list of Hillary's faults and what a disaster she is.

I just fail to see,based upon his statements, his history, his personality, his record how Trump would be in any way, on any issue, one jot different from Hillary. Trump IS Hillary, an utterly immoral authoritarian opportunist, except traded on his family wealth and she traded on her husband's political power. You say "Without Trump, we'll get Hillary". I'm telling you that with Trump we get Hillary too.

The Court is GONE. So is any idea of constraining the federal government, enforcing the rule of law on the rich and connected, or ruling from the consent of the governed. No matter who wins, the shining city on the hill has regressed to the human mean.

You're fooling yourself if you think otherwise.

I'll vote my principles and die with a clear conscience, thankyouverymuch.

Posted by: Weirddave at May 25, 2016 05:45 PM (Xhp1L)

653 OT? Elect SHrillary! and this little diversititty bunny will be dancing on your graves.

http://tinyurl.com/hb2e6d4

Posted by: OK, Thanks, Bye at May 25, 2016 05:45 PM (ucB75)

654 You know different conservatives than I do. Conservatives I know actually look at Trump's record, not what he is saying to get elected, and understand that he has been a liberal Democrat all his life. And don't believe a word he says seeing as how he has already gone back on some of his biggest "policy positions" before even getting into the general election.

And then they would ask why are you flaking for him so relentlessly and trashing anyone who doesn't agree that he we need to get onboard right now with a guy you have absolutely zero idea of what he will do. Enough about Hillary, make a positive case for Trump. He sure as hell hasn't.
Posted by: JackStraw at May 25, 2016 05:42 PM (/tuJf)

Because most of us recognize that even if Trump is a traditional "liberal" ( which I do not concede), you fail to recognize that the left and the democratic party are not longer "Traditional Liberals" but far left socialist/communist. And THAT is the choice we have 2016.

Posted by: Nevergiveup at May 25, 2016 05:45 PM (Ozsfq)

655 I'm still voting for Gary Johnson.

Team America.

Fuck yeah.

Posted by: @PeeteySDee at May 25, 2016 05:45 PM (jTQrR)

656 Trump has expressed admiration for the way the Chinese handled the protesters in Tienanmen Square. That alone makes him too dangerous to elect. Hillary is every bit as bad as you say, and will do damage to the constitutional order; Trump may blow it completely up.

Posted by: Raul Johnson at May 25, 2016 05:45 PM (MiBr0)

657 So, should I preference all Trump/Trump Booster
criticism with 'Not all Trump Supporters' and 'The Trump 2016 is a
campaign of peace?'

Posted by: LOL Kabong at May 25, 2016 05:41 PM (MCmqp)

why are you concerned about the tenor of his campaign against the democrats?

Posted by: runner at May 25, 2016 05:45 PM (c6/9Q)

658 I'm all in for Hillary!
First of all - everyone knows she is deeply racist, and likes to use the N-word. She's the best chance in the next 30 years to completely gut affirmative action.

Second - she hates the poor. Hates them. Best chance to reform welfare.

Jobs. Haven't you always wanted to be a jackbooted thug? Her enemy list is a mile long, and most of us aren't even on it. Sure, you have to buy your own gun and mask, but you get official sanction, immunity, anonymity, and the ability to settle all your own scores, as a perk of the job.

She's old. She's not going to travel for vacations. Old women like to stay warm, at home.

Posted by: dustydog at May 25, 2016 05:45 PM (JgGr4)

659 I agree, and I just heard on the radio that Trump has now gone there: stated that Obama is going to slide Biden in at the last minute.

I hope he has a plan to defeat Plagiarizin' Joe. Is anyone else here as worried as I am about a Biden/Warren ticket than a Hillary/Dildo one?

Posted by: iforgot at May 25, 2016 05:31 PM (pC96u)

And people keep insisting Trump is a dumb shit. He did this on purpose so now Obama can't slide Biden in as easily (his ego won't allow Trump to be right) and Trump faces off against a severely weakened Hillary.

Posted by: Soulpatchtony at May 25, 2016 05:46 PM (m40v5)

660 I'll vote my principles and die with a clear conscience, thankyouverymuch.
Posted by: Weirddave at May 25, 2016 05:45 PM (Xhp1L)

____

When your tax rate is 70%, and you're banned from owning a gun and you can only drive "green cars" and your kids have to take showers with adult men....your principles will come in handy I'm sure.

Posted by: Monsieur Moo Moo at May 25, 2016 05:46 PM (r4VQU)

661
So keep your precious principled vote if you want,its your choice.But the Honduran that just got here 3 months ago is going to use his to vote himself more free shit

Posted by: Flawless Male Logic at May 25, 2016 05:46 PM (lKyWE)

662 "I loves me the Constitution but it's not the answer some think it is."

The answer is the right charismatic strong man.

Posted by: Sexypig at May 25, 2016 05:46 PM (UBBWX)

663 632 I've changed my mind...

i want to go on the cart.

Posted by: This Thread

As someone who detests the "threadwinner" thing, I'll say "threadwinner". What the hell, I'll probably vote for that ass, Trump, so what does it matter.

Posted by: pep at May 25, 2016 05:46 PM (LAe3v)

664 636

I'm afraid I don't find a great deal of comfort in the hope that the GOP will suddenly find its backbone when opposing the constitutional overreach of a president from its OWN party.

And the media will only rediscover the value of the Constitution if Trump threatens it in ways they don't like - if he goes after guns, for instance, they will defend him to the hilt.

Posted by: person at May 25, 2016 05:46 PM (mFkVC)

665 So if you want a functioning press again and an
legislature who actually opposes a president (even when he is, on paper,
a member of the same party) vote for Trump.

Posted by: DonnaV (a white) (whitely brandishing ampersand privilege ) at May 25, 2016 05:43 PM (P8951)
=============================================

Now see - here is an argument that makes sense to me. I can view that as a positive. Thank you Donna.

Posted by: grammie winger at May 25, 2016 05:47 PM (dFi94)

666 No. The right never wins because the right never plays the long con. It's always looking for the grand slam, instead of a walk or single. Every time I hear someone talk about tax cuts on the right it's shit like my plan will cut $8T in taxes over the next 5 years. Great, except it has a less than 0% chance of happening. How about a plan that cuts $150B in taxes instead which has a pretty good chance of happening? Then once that's done, another $150B and another. You chip away away with a sing;e here and a single there until you've scored a run or two.

Democrats didn't turn the country into a socialist shithole in a year. It took them 100+ years.

Posted by: Monsieur Moo Moo at May 25, 2016 05:43 PM (r4VQU)

Some good points there. The Paul Ryan We're Going To Cut $10 Trillion Over 50 Years Plan is absolute bullshit when you remember that no future Congress is bound by any piece of legislation passed in prior sessions. His plan has about as much success as I would running for Prime Minister of Britain.

Posted by: Dack Thrombosis at May 25, 2016 05:47 PM (4ErVI)

667 I just figure they were just all ballsdeep(tm) for the UniParty (right wing / left wing, doesn't matter) but don't want to admit it.

Posted by: Burnt Toast at May 25, 2016 05:41 PM (iYTlX)

And people wonder why so many real conservatives who have spent their time and money fighting the establishment squishes won't vote for a candidate (or his supporters) that constantly insult them...

Posted by: The Political Hat at May 25, 2016 05:47 PM (Z8xbi)

668 This clown is an authoritarian, and he would aim these same dirty
tactics he uses against Hillary at you and me if we opposed him on
anything. He's unfit for office, and at the very least needs very close
supervision and control.

That's exactly right. I think a lot of people are just deliberately refusing to see this.

Can anyone here say that he *wouldn't* weaponize the IRS in the same way that Obama has? Hmm?

Posted by: chemjeff at May 25, 2016 05:47 PM (uAvJJ)

669 Protesters gathering outside Anaheim for a Trump rally, lots of police with cavalry. Wonder if they should carry lances.

Posted by: Skip at May 25, 2016 05:47 PM (3wHFl)

670 639 Posted by: The Political Hat at May 25, 2016 05:43 PM (Z8xbi)

I will likely be working right beside you Hat.

That said the battle lines are being (re)drawn....

this nation is about to decide if it is even a nation anymore in the next two cycles maybe 4.

The internationalists reject loyalty to this nation or its system, the nationalists will not be the people I prefer economics or foreign policy wise.

What I know to my core is that Hillary! will try to strangle ANY supremacy of our Constitution or legal system in its deathbed.

Trump gives us at least a chance to lay the groundwork to reassert the rule of law.

Posted by: sven10077 at May 25, 2016 05:48 PM (g8Hfr)

671 Accepting liberal lies just to come down on the GOP nominee's side isn't exactly doing the party any favors. What other long-standing party or movement positions or mantras or elected officials must we jettison because Trump will build a wall and win and hey finally someone brought up Vince Foster?
Posted by: Cody's Feed Bag at May 25, 2016 05:40 PM (XiVKO)
--------------
Party favors and candidates' positions have no direct bearing on facts of historic events. W's public projections of the available intelligence and projections by his administration bore no resemblance to the actual assessments of the various intelligence agencies. This is well documented in works by authors from the left, center, and right and is easily accessible to anyone with any interest in researching it.

Posted by: RioBravo at May 25, 2016 05:48 PM (NUqwG)

672
Re: the side bar, I still cant believe they havent aired The Eichmann Show in the US. It is a BBC production and was really really good. Great cast.

Posted by: Bruce With a Wang! at May 25, 2016 05:48 PM (iQIUe)

673 650 "No. The right never wins because the right never plays the long con. It's always looking for the grand slam, instead of a walk or single. Every time I hear someone talk about tax cuts on the right it's shit like my plan will cut $8T in taxes over the next 5 years. Great, except it has a less than 0% chance of happening. How about a plan that cuts $150B in taxes instead which has a pretty good chance of happening? Then once that's done, another $150B and another. You chip away away with a sing;e here and a single there until you've scored a run or two."

Sequester was good.

Posted by: Sexypig at May 25, 2016 05:45 PM (UBBWX)

____

Yeah it was. And then the spineless GOPe rescinded it as fast as they could. But those people - and not Trump - are super duper totes conservatives.

Posted by: Monsieur Moo Moo at May 25, 2016 05:48 PM (r4VQU)

674 280-----He will change the way the federal career employees are protected from firing. Just to facilitate the other easy, common sense changes that will get Trump a spot on Mt. Rushmore.

Posted by: jwest at May 25, 2016 04:56 PM (Zs4uk)
-------------------------
Okay. At least that made me laugh!
Well, until I realized that you are probably serious.

Posted by: Margarita DeVille at May 25, 2016 05:48 PM (T/5A0)

675 Posted by: dusty dog at May 25, 2016 05:45 PM (JgGr4)

---

We can't wait for her to become 'Madame President'!

Tee hee.

Posted by: America's enemies dumpster-diving through Hillary's emails at May 25, 2016 05:48 PM (rlfds)

676 Can anyone here say that he *wouldn't* weaponize the IRS in the same way that Obama has? Hmm?
Posted by: chemjeff at May 25, 2016 05:47 PM (uAvJJ)

Yeah and what evidence do you have that he would...oh yeah your the one that accused him of being a flexible authoritarian?

Posted by: Nevergiveup at May 25, 2016 05:48 PM (Ozsfq)

677 668 Posted by: chemjeff at May 25, 2016 05:47 PM (uAvJJ)

As opposed to Grammy H or the Barn....

psssttt maybe the left should FINALLY feel some blowback no?

Posted by: sven10077 at May 25, 2016 05:49 PM (g8Hfr)

678 Hillary is pure evil. Trump is the exact same flavor of pure evil. The only difference between the two is that Trump is a better liar. I will not sell my soul to vote for either of them.

Posted by: Dr. Isopod

Big difference is that HRC has a body count, is a thief, a soulless lying scrunt, hates the military, and has committed numerous felonies over the decades.

Trump is no angel however I don't get the 'evil' comparison between the two.

Posted by: Cheri at May 25, 2016 05:49 PM (oiNtH)

679 658

You make a strong case.

I'll still probably vote DT though.

Posted by: dissent555 at May 25, 2016 05:49 PM (hQDvN)

680 I think both Hillary and Trump will be damaging. My game theory would be to determine which one can be or will be reigned in more by the other branches. Because of the imminent replacement of SC justices during the next administration, the edge for causing the least damage is Trump. I think Congress will better control Hillary than Trump provided it remains in GOP hands.

Posted by: Joe Hallenbeck at May 25, 2016 05:49 PM (V9ATq)

681 I agree, and I just heard on the radio that Trump has now gone there:
stated that Obama is going to slide Biden in at the last minute.

Well duh. He is going to repeat every loopy rumor that he comes across.

Posted by: chemjeff at May 25, 2016 05:49 PM (uAvJJ)

682 I went and made a snack - you guys have this figured out yet?

Posted by: Weasel at May 25, 2016 05:49 PM (e3bId)

683 #NeverTrumpers?

I just figure they were just
all ballsdeep(tm) for the UniParty (right wing / left wing, doesn't
matter) but don't want to admit it.

Posted by: Burnt Toast at May 25, 2016 05:41 PM (iYTlX)

... and having just skimmed a few comments ...
I lied. Some #NeverTrumpers are just absolutely fricken stupid.
And by "stupid" I mean capable of learning but refusing to.

So, like teaching a pig to sing, why bother.

Posted by: Burnt Toast at May 25, 2016 05:49 PM (iYTlX)

684 >>>Conservatives I know actually look at Trump's record

does spending his entire life in the private sector cut any ice with the conservatives you know? you know, actually building that which Hillary and Obama and Liz Warren say he and others didn't build. you know, being a net taxpayer and shit.

Posted by: x at May 25, 2016 05:49 PM (nFwvY)

685 I'm still voting for Gary Johnson.

Team America.

Fuck yeah.

President Hillary thanks you for your support.

Posted by: Cicero (@cicero) at May 25, 2016 05:50 PM (8ZskC)

686 Trump.

Hillary.

Either case, it's all going to come to a head.

Prepare accordingly.

Posted by: SMFH while circling the drain... at May 25, 2016 05:50 PM (rlfds)

687 Why does anyone think Trump can save this country?
Even if he was elected, we still have the same rotten bouillabase of self-appointed, entitled classes, the same decayed armed forces drawing on a dwindling fraction of the population, an overseas staples industrial base (forget computers, what about girders and piping and wiring), a rich class fortifying itself on both coasts and an underclass burning down their own homes around them, a bureaucracy that at this point functions almost independent of the elected government but in lockstep with our most corrupt political party (one that Trump has done business with all his life). What is Trump going to fix when his entire Department of Justice is staffed by lawyers from the opposition?

Posted by: richard mcenroe at May 25, 2016 05:50 PM (Kucy5)

688 Trump just walked back his position on gun rights in schools, which for many years has been my main issue.

I hate him with every fiber of my being. I may vote for him, but I hate the shit out of that vile statist toad. .

Posted by: stace at May 25, 2016 05:50 PM (ozZau)

689 He lacks self-control, is vengeful. I can't trust him with the power of the presidency.
Posted by: Michael Bates

Hillary is a fat dunk who keeps enemies lists. what was your point?
Posted by: x at May 25, 2016 05:41 PM (nFwvY)

Oh, so they are both vengeful, and this is a plus for Trump how?

Posted by: chique d'afrique, former Republican at May 25, 2016 05:50 PM (nIGPZ)

690 Would you rather have Pinochet or Fidel Castro? Sometimes it becomes a decision like that.

But for the record, all the "authoritarian" talk is basically Trump threatening to sue reporters for libel.

A little perspective is in order.

Posted by: Jamers at May 25, 2016 05:50 PM (LZgax)

691 684

Trump mainly built his celebrity through the tabloids and television.

And I wouldn't bet on Trump being a net taxpayer, though its unlikely we'll ever know for sure.

Posted by: person at May 25, 2016 05:50 PM (mFkVC)

692 I won't vote for Trump. Make of that what you will. It simply will not happen.

Posted by: Slapweasel, (Cold1), (T) at May 25, 2016 05:51 PM (OQ9R7)

693 621 The best version is, let's say Trump is actually not a disaster, and things turn out okayish.

We end up with a center-left-nationalist vs. far-left-internationalist part mix.

In other words, we become Europe.

I'm already seeing people talking down the Constitution already in favor of this new nationalism. Had to happen sooner or later.
Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of the Sith at May 25, 2016 05:41 PM (wB8Tg)

Agree completely. Once we jettison the ideas of the constitution, what exactly do we stand for? Border security? But if we piss all over the constitution, what exactly will those borders contain?

I worry that what we saw in '08, '12, the JUST WIN urge for those on the right are causing a lot of people to start going off the rails.

Now I think a lot of the hyperbole and histrionics directed at Trump is just that. On the other hand, as I have said before, his supporters do a pretty damned lousy job of selling the candidate. Telling people on the conservative side (remember that? Independent, do not like being told what to do?) to "shut the fuck up and vote, damn you" does not win a lot of converts.

Still, I find the people who then think Hillary to be a good alternative are just strange. I cannot make that logical leap.

Posted by: Aetius451AD at May 25, 2016 05:51 PM (3ZoRf)

694 656 Trump has expressed admiration for the way the Chinese handled the protesters in Tienanmen Square. That alone makes him too dangerous to elect. Hillary is every bit as bad as you say, and will do damage to the constitutional order; Trump may blow it completely up.
Posted by: Raul Johnson at May 25, 2016 05:45 PM (MiBr0)

Excerpt, as I said, Trump will be held in check in a way Obama has not been and Hillary would not be.

Do you really think the media will suddenly start challenging the first Vaginal President? You think they won't challenge Trump?

Posted by: Donna&&&&V (a white) (whitely brandishing ampersand privilege ) at May 25, 2016 05:51 PM (P8951)

695 I worked my ass off for decades for my Rolodex and the affluence and influence it provides me. And I'll be damned if I'll let Trump takes that all away. His supporters couldn't even find the salad fork if you stabbed one in their ass.

Not a single one is fit to govern.

#NEVER TRUMP!

Posted by: The Real Deal at May 25, 2016 05:51 PM (RcpcZ)

696
psssttt maybe the left should FINALLY feel some blowback no?

Posted by: sven10077 at May 25, 2016 05:49 PM (g8Hfr)
I don't want an IRS weaponized against either the left or the right. I don't think that is too much to ask.

Posted by: chemjeff at May 25, 2016 05:51 PM (uAvJJ)

697
Just get me a room, a ruler, a red pen, and endless supply of Cheetos, diet coke, and pizza, and I'll slash a trillion or more from the budget.

Posted by: Bruce With a Wang! at May 25, 2016 05:51 PM (iQIUe)

698 I hate him with every fiber of my being. I may vote for him, but I hate the shit out of that vile statist toad. .

Posted by: stace

You are not alone.

Posted by: pep at May 25, 2016 05:51 PM (LAe3v)

699 Given the choice between two shit sandwiches, my response will always be, "none for me thanks."

The coming disaster is the fault of those who nominated these two shit sandwiches, not those of us who refuse to take a bite.

Posted by: RD Walker at May 25, 2016 05:51 PM (ImpgP)

700
I just heard on the radio that Trump has now gone there:
stated that Obama is going to slide Biden in at the last minute.

Well duh. He is going to repeat every loopy rumor that he comes across.
Posted by: chemjeff at May 25, 2016 05:49 PM (uAvJJ)
-------------------

You think it's a loopy rumor? You think there's no chance it happens?

Posted by: iforgot at May 25, 2016 05:52 PM (pC96u)

701 or if some really terrible info comes out about him (which I think is fairly likely),

Doubt anything that hasn't already been trashed about will show up. You think the other 16 GOPs all passed on something?

It's pole position not poll position unless that ewok went right by me.

Posted by: DaveA at May 25, 2016 05:52 PM (DL2i+)

702 Protesters gathering outside Anaheim for a Trump rally, lots of police with cavalry. Wonder if they should carry lances.

Posted by: Skip at May 25, 2016 05:47 PM (3wHFl)

Into the Valley of Death rode the 600 . . .

Posted by: Count de Monet at May 25, 2016 05:52 PM (JO9+V)

703 689 Posted by: chique d'afrique, former Republican at May 25, 2016 05:50 PM (nIGPZ)

One may accidentally target my enemies...

The other will be targeting *me* Chique...

I have donated too much to not be on her magic list.

The WI John Doe shit will be her blueprint.

Posted by: sven10077 at May 25, 2016 05:52 PM (g8Hfr)

704 Trump.

Hillary.

Either case, it's all going to come to a head.

Prepare accordingly.
Posted by: SMFH while circling the drain... at May 25, 2016 05:50 PM (rlfds)

Yes, this ^^^^^^^^

Posted by: Blano at May 25, 2016 05:52 PM (z43G5)

705
645 I would take Biden over Hillary or Trump in a heartbeat.
Posted by: Bandersnatch, Team Lefty and Scamp at May 25, 2016 05:44 PM (1xUj/)
-----------------------

You scare me.

SCOTUS????? At a minimum?

Posted by: iforgot at May 25, 2016 05:52 PM (pC96u)

706 does spending his entire life in the private sector cut any ice with the conservatives you know? you know, actually building that which Hillary and Obama and Liz Warren say he and others didn't build. you know, being a net taxpayer and shit.
Posted by: x at May 25, 2016 05:49 PM (nFwvY)

I wouldn't support Zuckerberg, Gates or Buffet either.

Posted by: chique d'afrique, former Republican at May 25, 2016 05:52 PM (nIGPZ)

707 Would you rather have Pinochet or Fidel Castro? Sometimes it becomes a decision like that.

Posted by: Jamers at May 25, 2016 05:50 PM (LZgax)

Easy.

Pinochet.

I'd take Pinochet over either Hillary or Trump.

Posted by: The Overthrowing Hat at May 25, 2016 05:52 PM (Z8xbi)

708 OK, folks. Which of these hills should we die on.

1. Repeal ObamaCare
2. Ban abortion
3. Reverse gay marriage
4. No minimum wage increases
5. Cut Social Security and Medicare benefits
6. Put new Scalias on SCOTUS
7. Stop acting like illegals have a right to be here
8. Deny CAGW; reverse EPA overreach
9. Recut trade deals; insist on trade balance

Picking too many makes you unelectable. Some like #2 and #3 may be unachievable.

Posted by: Ignoramus at May 25, 2016 05:52 PM (r1fLd)

709
Trump is the exact same flavor of pure evil.

What is pure evil about Donald Trump?

Posted by: Flawless Male Logic at May 25, 2016 05:52 PM (lKyWE)

710 You still assume he cannot be bought. I believe otherwise, which is why i am still leaning nevertrump. Imagine a scenario where the D's go to trump and say pass X and we will include this language which would increase the value of your real estate by over $1 billion USD. Anyone here think he says no way to that or than to come back and say change the language on the real estate provisions to this which increases its value by $2 billion?

You assume he won't do liberal things when in office because of what he has said on the campaign trail. What exactly about his history and his backtracking against every position he took during the primaries leads you to believe he will not do exactly that?

You assume that government agencies won't do terrible things if trump is elected - why not? Lois Lerner was a non-political appointee, her career at the IRS started in 2001, which was during the Bush Administration. Far less than 1% of federal employees are political appointees. Trump can't fire them, can't do anything to them.

Posted by: JeffreyL at May 25, 2016 05:52 PM (mXv3y)

711 I just have to keep laughing at all of those "you have to vote republican because the democrats are worse!!!!" Have finally discovered that it's not the case. Of course once Trump isn't the candidate in the future it will again be back to the "but the democrats are worse!!!!!!"

Posted by: Buzzion at May 25, 2016 05:53 PM (z/Ubi)

712 I wouldn't support Zuckerberg, Gates or Buffet either.
Posted by: chique d'afrique, former Republican at May 25, 2016 05:52 PM (nIGPZ)

How about Jobs?

Posted by: Nevergiveup at May 25, 2016 05:53 PM (Ozsfq)

713 You might wanna give a little thought to the part about resisting the devil.

Trump is a buffoon, but I don't believe for a second at this point he's evil.

Hillary Clinton is an agent of evil and must be fought. Period.
Posted by: Blano at May 25, 2016 05:44 PM (VNhbF)

No, Trump is evil. He has used his political power to steal other people's property. He owns strip clubs and publicly brags about sleeping with other men's wives. He admires dictators. He is an ignorant, thieving, lying, fornicating bully and braggart.

This is what's different with Trump. I voted for McCain, Romney, and Bush. Didn't much like any of them. But I didn't have any reason to believe that any of them, as a matter of their character, were evil. That's why I could overlook policy differences, because I thought they were basically decent human beings.

Posted by: Matt from WY at May 25, 2016 05:53 PM (RSa+S)

714
Dont hurt the police horsies!!!!!

Posted by: Bruce With a Wang! at May 25, 2016 05:53 PM (iQIUe)

715 Did The Federalist run out of watercress sandwiches? Deck chairs not out for racing season yet?

Lotta #nevertrumpers showing up it seems.

Posted by: Dack Thrombosis at May 25, 2016 05:53 PM (4ErVI)

716 696 Posted by: chemjeff at May 25, 2016 05:51 PM (uAvJJ)

Well thank God the GOP has done sweet fuckall about it then?

I admire your moral perfection, how many straight cycles shall we allow the IRS to attack the right unimpeded?

Posted by: sven10077 at May 25, 2016 05:53 PM (g8Hfr)

717 690

And his praise for authoritarians. And the fact that the only real solution he ever offers on issues is his own personal "strength," usually as a negotiator. And the fact that he views everything in terms of "strong," "weak," "winners," and "losers," and these designations are determined by how much people praise Trump. And his complete ignorance of checks--and-balances, states rights, etc.

Posted by: person at May 25, 2016 05:53 PM (mFkVC)

718 You think it's a loopy rumor? You think there's no chance it happens?

Posted by: iforgot at May 25, 2016 05:52 PM (pC96u)
Yes I think it's a loopy rumor that gets passed around on political blogs, but for which there is very little evidence of its validity.

Posted by: chemjeff at May 25, 2016 05:53 PM (uAvJJ)

719 Trump is the exact same flavor of pure evil.

What is pure evil about Donald Trump?

Forget it, he's rolling.

Posted by: Eric Stratton, Rush Chairman at May 25, 2016 05:53 PM (8ZskC)

720 Leftists seem to think Trump is the end of the world. They seem to think he is not leftist. The media especially

Posted by: ThunderB at May 25, 2016 05:54 PM (zOTsN)

721 Look, Pinochet was a bad guy, but he also threw journalists into the sea from helicopters.

Wait, is that one of the bad things he did?

/justkidding journolists.

Posted by: Sexypig at May 25, 2016 05:54 PM (UBBWX)

722 692 I won't vote for Trump. Make of that what you will. It simply will not happen.
Posted by: Slapweasel, (Cold1), (T) at

*********

Heh.

Posted by: Danube River Guide at May 25, 2016 05:54 PM (mcm0N)

723 No, Trump is evil. He has used his political power to steal other people's property.

Yeah take a civics lesson and then get back to me..Ignorance is terrible thing

Posted by: Nevergiveup at May 25, 2016 05:54 PM (Ozsfq)

724

Does this three piece suit make me look pretentious?

How about the boots? Do they go with this suit?

Posted by: Universal Unction, for all those irritations in your life at May 25, 2016 05:54 PM (kBd14)

725 "How about Jobs?"
-Posted by: Nevergiveup at May 25, 2016 05:53 PM (Ozsfq)

He's dead, lest he suck my garden hose of its clogs.

Posted by: Slapweasel, (Cold1), (T) at May 25, 2016 05:54 PM (OQ9R7)

726 Because of the imminent replacement of SC justices during the next administration, the edge for causing the least damage is Trump. I think Congress will better control Hillary than Trump provided it remains in GOP hands.
Posted by: Joe Hallenbeck at May 25, 2016 05:49 PM (V9ATq)

Yup, IF I do vote for that fucking piece of shit--the one representing our party, not the other one--that will be the one reason why.

Posted by: stace at May 25, 2016 05:54 PM (ozZau)

727 C'mon ThunderB, you've seen them in here, bringing the word "identitarian" into politics, calling everybody "cucks" who doesn't buy into white racial consciousness. I spent the last 20 years believing that identity politics were BAD, like you all did, until the alt-right decided no actually they were good now.

Trump's supporters are the ones trying to remold the GOP, and middle-class college-educated advocates of small government are not part of it. We're not part of the emerging Democrat coalition either. Whether Santa Government hands out his goodies to the inner-city or to some crappy dying town in West Virginia, I lose. I'm not joining Team West Virginia just because they share a skin color with me, nor Team Whole Foods on the other side. I'm just out.

Hillary is a crook, just like Trump is, I won't vote for her either. On that argument, you had me at Whitewater and the cattle futures, 20+ years ago. But counting my decision to vote LP as if it were basically half-a-vote for Hillary is ridiculous, I own my vote and it's not preassigned to anyone. I gave the LP my vote in 2004 after Bush went on a military adventure and domestic spending spree, so it won't be the first time.

Posted by: cjw at May 25, 2016 05:54 PM (onydf)

728 I still cant believe they havent aired The Eichmann Show in the US. It is a BBC production and was really really good. Great cast.

-
All chicks?

Posted by: Anonosaurus Wrecks at May 25, 2016 05:54 PM (Nwg0u)

729
I'd love to see a horse bite the leftard who hits them. Just take a big effin chomp out of them.

Posted by: Bruce With a Wang! at May 25, 2016 05:54 PM (iQIUe)

730 I think Congress will better control Hillary than Trump provided it remains in GOP hands.
---
LOLOLOLOL... you haven't been paying attention the last 8 years, have you?

Posted by: redc1c4 at May 25, 2016 05:54 PM (8Y4jo)

731 "Unless you've been writing in Perot or Buchanan this whole time (and
given your unflinching principles, how could you?), it's silly to draw
the line at Trump."

My line has been etched for some time and Trump is nowhere near it.

What about all the assholes who voted for Ralph Nader in 2000? If he hadn't stolen votes from Gore we never would have had Bush, ergo, never would have had Obama. Hillary is worse than Obama? Fuck, she'll kick the bucket in two years tops if she wins.

Posted by: Baron Von Ottomatic at May 25, 2016 05:54 PM (ktzHq)

732 I worked my ass off for decades for my Rolodex and the affluence and influence it provides me. And I'll be damned if I'll let Trump takes that all away. His supporters couldn't even find the salad fork if you stabbed one in their ass.

Not a single one is fit to govern.

#NEVER TRUMP!
Posted by: The Real Deal at May 25, 2016 05:51 PM (RcpcZ)

You'll always have Fox News, Karl.

Posted by: Blano at May 25, 2016 05:54 PM (z43G5)

733 *shares congo bars with Jane*

*gives stink eye to AtC* Ahem. A yuuuuge box of wolf spiders has been mis-delivered to my house. How should I forward them to you? *shudders uncontrollably*

Posted by: Jane D'oh at May 25, 2016 05:43 PM (1ZOkK)

On fire?

Posted by: alexthechick- Darth Sugartits at May 25, 2016 05:55 PM (mf5HN)

734 Yeah take a civics lesson and then get back to me..Ignorance is terrible thing
Posted by: Nevergiveup at May 25, 2016 05:54 PM (Ozsfq)

I'm talking about his abuse of public domain.

Posted by: Matt from WY at May 25, 2016 05:55 PM (RSa+S)

735 Even the horses have face shields at the protest rally.

Posted by: Skip at May 25, 2016 05:55 PM (3wHFl)

736 I am no fan of Trump have lathed him since the Ed Koch era frankly....

------------

You made a baseball bat out of him?

Posted by: Duke Lowell at May 25, 2016 05:55 PM (kTF2Z)

737 I'm sure China has paid her for whatever she put on that server. The second server can also thwart a FOIA that might reveal the China involvement. If not China, Russia, Iran et al.

This money is going toward her campaign of course.

Posted by: BourbonChicken at May 25, 2016 05:55 PM (VdICR)

738 Can anyone here say that he *wouldn't* weaponize the IRS in the same way that Obama has? Hmm?
Posted by: chemjeff at May 25, 2016 05:47 PM (uAvJJ)

Nixon tried it. Didn't work.

IRS bureaucrats belong to the Party of Big Government. They will always side with the Dems.

Posted by: Donna&&&&V (a white) (whitely brandishing ampersand privilege ) at May 25, 2016 05:55 PM (P8951)

739 I'm afraid I don't find a great deal of comfort in
the hope that the GOP will suddenly find its backbone ...

Posted by: person at May 25, 2016 05:46 PM (mFkVC)

I agree. Trey Gowdy mentioned today--in regards to the IRS impeachment-- "The calender does favor us being able to do anything"...But BOY is he outraged at the disrespect for the people and process! So there is that.
What happened to FF..Benghazi..voter fraud..refusal to enforce immigration law, etc, etc? Nothing. Why would they care? They get their fat salary and bennies either way.

Posted by: Mimzey at May 25, 2016 05:55 PM (aRUb8)

740 Joe Biden won't have Jeff Sessions advising him on policy. Of that you may be certain.

Posted by: Cicero (@cicero) at May 25, 2016 05:55 PM (8ZskC)

741 "...I agree, and I just heard on the radio that Trump has now gone there: stated that Obama is going to slide Biden in at the last minute.

I hope he has a plan to defeat Plagiarizin' Joe. Is anyone else here as worried as I am about a Biden/Warren ticket than a Hillary/Dildo one?
Posted by: iforgot at May 25, 2016 05:31 PM (pC96u)"

Heh. Yeah, but you're talking about the SAME GUY who said that plane crash was caused by terrorism! Oh, wait...

None of the other candidates was EVER going to go after Hillary any where NEAR as effectively as Trump already has. They'd be afraid of being called "mysoginist", just as McCain and Romney were afraid to be called a "racist". He's just warming up, and is already even in the polls. The only thing that surprises me about it is how quickly it happened.

I recall that Bernie first started succeeding against Hillary after Trump's first swipe. That's how potent this guy is.

Joe? That guy is a gaffe-a-minute, and a track record that is unsurpassed as far as picking the wrong side on things! Not to mention how the Democratic Party would be in complete disarray. Trump would have a REALLY good time with Joe! He already seems to be having some fun with Warren.

The only question is, how Trump would fare against Bernie!

Posted by: Optimizer at May 25, 2016 05:55 PM (jPHi7)

742 Ignorance is terrible thing
---
you owe me a new irony meter

Posted by: redc1c4 at May 25, 2016 05:55 PM (8Y4jo)

743 I admire your moral perfection, how many straight cycles shall we allow the IRS to attack the right unimpeded?

Posted by: sven10077 at May 25, 2016 05:53 PM (g8Hfr)
What is your point? I don't want the IRS attacking either the left or the right.
Putting in charge someone who will just cement the legitimacy of the IRS being used as a political attack dog, just on the *other side*, doesn't seem like it would be too helpful.

Posted by: chemjeff at May 25, 2016 05:56 PM (uAvJJ)

744 Geez, you guys haven't gotten to 800 comments yet?

Pikers.

Posted by: dissent555 at May 25, 2016 05:56 PM (hQDvN)

745 Just the fact that Trump submitted a list of conservative judges ALONE is worth "gambling" your vote on if you truly care about these issues.

The areas where trump is liberal is mainly window dressing. He may raise the minimum wage, so did several Republican Presidents.

Posted by: Jamers at May 25, 2016 05:56 PM (LZgax)

746 I'd like to ask Trump if he should be able to sell his luxury apartments to foreigners like Chinese, Arabs, and Mexicans.

Does he understand he's letting them live in America when he does that?

Does he understand he's selling the sacred soil to a foreigner?

Because he's really big on telling me not to buy things (or sell things) to foreigners via trade, but he's fine when he's making the money selling something to foreigners.

or marrying them.

Posted by: Sexypig at May 25, 2016 05:56 PM (UBBWX)

747 he is a con man

The buildings and others fortunes exist.

Posted by: DaveA at May 25, 2016 05:56 PM (DL2i+)

748 Yeah take a civics lesson and then get back to me..Ignorance is terrible thing
Posted by: Nevergiveup at May 25, 2016 05:54 PM (Ozsfq)

He has tried to do exactly that, and he still thinks it's ok to do that. Unfit for office. Ugh, better go start dinner. I'm getting too wound up. I just fucking hate Trump and 99.9% of everything about him.

Posted by: stace at May 25, 2016 05:56 PM (ozZau)

749 "So, yes, I am now on Team Trump: Because Bathing In Wolf Spiders Is Still Better Than Hillary But I Totally Understand If You Disagree."-------alexthechick @537:

Woohoo! I'll bring the soap!

Posted by: Wolf Spider at May 25, 2016 05:56 PM (m3iiU)

750 493 Yeah, Write in Cruz, the guy who got his ass kicked by the buffoon.

I'd like to shake some of you virtuous dickweeds.

Posted by: nip at May 25, 2016 05:26 PM (r73Jl)

You are forgetting Cruz was up against not only The Democrats and the Left, but the GOP Establishment, the 'Media', Fox News, Trump, and +$2 Billion in Free Media for Trump, and the Mailman's Son staying in the race as a spoiler...

... and he still never waivered on his Conservative Constitutional principles. He still has many State delegates and is set to influence the party's platform for the Convention.

I wouldn't call that getting his "ass kicked" ...

Posted by: 7% Solution at May 25, 2016 05:57 PM (N4klH)

751 729

I'd love to see a horse bite the leftard who hits them. Just take a big effin chomp out of them.

Posted by: Bruce With a Wang! at May 25, 2016 05:54 PM (iQIUe)

Go all over-heated camel on 'em!

Posted by: Jane D'oh at May 25, 2016 05:57 PM (1ZOkK)

752 McCain fuckedaround plenty. I have zero evidence Trump owns a strip club, but I would bet everything I have McCain has been in plenty of them, as a young navy man at least. Remember the Keating Five? Where McCain was self dealing some sweet sweet DoD money? No?

You voted for him. He is not pure. Was McCain evil?

Posted by: ThunderB at May 25, 2016 05:57 PM (zOTsN)

753 745

But he's already walking that list back. It means nothing.

Posted by: person at May 25, 2016 05:57 PM (mFkVC)

754 When your tax rate is 70%, and you're banned from owning a gun and you can only drive "green cars" and your kids have to take showers with adult men....your principles will come in handy I'm sure.

You stupid fuck, TRUMP will give you all of that too. He's on record in favor of gun bans, environmental extremism and supporting Obama's tranny policy.

Posted by: Weirddave at May 25, 2016 05:57 PM (Xhp1L)

755 734 Posted by: Matt from WY at May 25, 2016 05:55 PM (RSa+S)

Public Domain you mean he writes Slash fics of Frankenstein and Dracula?

Oh you mean Eminent Domain....

yeah well that is the way the New England game is played....

maybe if they'd pull fucking GOP every now and again pay for play wouldn't be the norm.

Posted by: sven10077 at May 25, 2016 05:57 PM (g8Hfr)

756 Can anyone here say that he *wouldn't* weaponize the IRS in the same way that Obama has? Hmm?

Posted by: chemjeff at May 25, 2016 05:47 PM (uAvJJ)

Can anyone here really say that Hillary won't sell everything west of the Mississippi to the Chinese in her first 100 days?

Hypotheticals are fun.

Posted by: Cicero (@cicero) at May 25, 2016 05:57 PM (8ZskC)

757 I'm talking about his abuse of public domain.
Posted by: Matt from WY at May 25, 2016 05:55 PM (RSa+S)

I know what your talking about.
You don't know what your talking about

You don't like Trump, fine, there are plenty of things to hate about him. But Eminent Domain is not one of them. You obviously do not understand how that works

Posted by: Nevergiveup at May 25, 2016 05:57 PM (Ozsfq)

758 I had a long list of people I supported before Trump, including financially. They're all gone. And on the whole, I don't mind Trump. He knows how to fight.

I do think Hillary is corrupt, paranoid and coming for my guns...so I'm not supporting her under any circumstances. But I'm not sure she'd do a lousy job. I wouldn't like most of her decisions but I suspect she could do it, barring health issues. She takes the Presidency seriously, she's been panting after it her whole life, she might be ok on some foreign policy fronts.

All that said, the NeverTrump stuff has been something close to a religious fervor. Something about Trump just seems to make people deranged with hate towards him.

Posted by: Mark Andrew Edwards at May 25, 2016 05:57 PM (F19Oi)

759 'Just the fact that Trump submitted a list of conservative judges ALONE is worth "gambling" your vote on if you truly care about these issues.'

That list someone typed up for him, and that he later said were just suggestions?

I'd take Trump over Hillary, but he's still a roll of the dice. He might be worse.

Posted by: Sexypig at May 25, 2016 05:57 PM (UBBWX)

760 >>>744 Geez, you guys haven't gotten to 800 comments yet?
Pikers.

The Airing of the Grievances is a delicate and time consuming process. It must not be rushed.

LOL @ TRUMPTRAIN!!!!21111!!

Posted by: LOL Kabong at May 25, 2016 05:58 PM (MCmqp)

761 >>>Has anyone figured out (if true) why Bill Clinton encouraged Trump to run?
Posted by: Mimzey<<<

He'd rather not have Hillary's death squad snuff him out in his sleep in the same week as Hillary's inauguration.

Posted by: Fritz at May 25, 2016 05:58 PM (f40FU)

762 >>>You don't like Trump, fine, there are plenty of things to hate about him. But Eminent Domain is not one of them. You obviously do not understand how that works

Please explain how it works then.

Posted by: LOL Kabong at May 25, 2016 05:58 PM (MCmqp)

763 735 Even the horses have face shields at the protest rally.
Posted by: Skip at May 25, 2016 05:55 PM (3wHFl)

The protesters have punched and slapped the horses - deliberately trying to make them bolt, in hopes of setting off greater violence.

That's one big reason I decided I'm voting for Trump.

I don't want the tactics of these evil SJWs to work.

Posted by: Donna&&&&V (a white) (whitely brandishing ampersand privilege ) at May 25, 2016 05:58 PM (P8951)

764
Can anyone here say that he *wouldn't* weaponize the IRS in the same way that Obama has? Hmm?

Ah if its already weaponized then he wouldn't need to,you know,weaponize it.

Posted by: Flawless Male Logic at May 25, 2016 05:58 PM (lKyWE)

765 Posted by: sven10077 at May 25, 2016 05:57 PM (g8Hfr)

Yes, sorry, I meant eminent domain. And just because something is commonly done doesn't make it right. Nobody forced him to steal people's property so he could make a profit.

Posted by: Matt from WY at May 25, 2016 05:58 PM (RSa+S)

766

If you're "let it burn" and "#neverTrump", then why not vote for Trump?

What difference does it make?

Posted by: artisanal 'ette at May 25, 2016 05:58 PM (qCMvj)

767 I almost puked when I read what Trigimestus wrote about wanting Progs to "feel" certain things through force of government.

It was late. It was the ONT. Make of it what you will, but I'm going to be okay now.

Posted by: Slapweasel, (Cold1), (T) at May 25, 2016 05:59 PM (OQ9R7)

768 Can anyone here really say that Hillary won't sell everything west of the Mississippi to the Chinese in her first 100 days?

Say she wouldn't? Hell, I'd give you odds.

Posted by: pep at May 25, 2016 05:59 PM (LAe3v)

769 Can anyone here say that he *wouldn't* weaponize the IRS in the same way that Obama has? Hmm?
Posted by: chemjeff at May 25, 2016 05:47 PM (uAvJJ)

Nixon tried it. Didn't work.

IRS bureaucrats belong to the Party of Big Government. They will always side with the Dems.
Posted by: Donna&&&&V

Plus, I'm pf the opinion the only way something truly stops is when both sides use it as a weapon.

If conservatives really got into voter fraud on a massive scale, I think you would suddenly see bipartisan efforts at common sense reforms like Voter ID in all 50 states.

But as long as it benefits one side only, they are never going to disarm themselves.

So Trump pushing the envelope with say auditing his enemies is not going to keep me up at night since we already know that what Democrat Presidents do anyway.

Posted by: Jamers at May 25, 2016 05:59 PM (LZgax)

770 I do think the Never Trump people are idiots.

Just don't vote.

Most people's votes don't matter anyways.

OH, FL, and VA voting counts.

NYC Republicans don't matter. California Republicans don't matter.

Posted by: Sexypig at May 25, 2016 05:59 PM (UBBWX)

771 Please explain how it works then.
Posted by: LOL Kabong at May 25, 2016 05:58 PM (MCmqp)

Nah, done it to often. Take a civics class and then get back to me

Posted by: Nevergiveup at May 25, 2016 05:59 PM (Ozsfq)

772 *sidles over to AtC w/plate of congo bars*

Plate?

I thought a Congo Bar was a place where the drinks have umbrellas and AtC is supposed to go under a bamboo pole without the Rack knocking it over.*

* Hint: ain't gonna happen.

Posted by: Bandersnatch, Team Lefty and Scamp at May 25, 2016 05:59 PM (1xUj/)

773 736 Posted by: Duke Lowell at May 25, 2016 05:55 PM (kTF2Z)

No I made a badly measured ashtray....

*sigh*

I have loathed Trump for decades....just like Juan Queeg

Posted by: sven10077 at May 25, 2016 05:59 PM (g8Hfr)

774 I voted for McCain, Romney, and Bush. Didn't much like any of them. But I didn't have any reason to believe that any of them, as a matter of their character, were evil."

Hmm. I, on the other hand, see those wishing to do well for me regardless of my wishes as less than "good"...

and that includes all 3 of the above, plus the balance of the GOPe.

Posted by: Anon a mouse... at May 25, 2016 05:59 PM (C9pBZ)

775 Cubs are having a good year. Bet the gal from Park Ridge starts making hay about that. She better not do the 7th inning stretch.

Posted by: grammie winger at May 25, 2016 06:00 PM (dFi94)

776 I'm talking about his abuse of public domain.

Posted by: Matt from WY at May 25, 2016 05:55 PM (RSa+S)

BRING ME MY SMELLING SALTS!!!!

BTW, did you hear about Benghazi?

Posted by: Cicero (@cicero) at May 25, 2016 06:00 PM (8ZskC)

777 "Plus, I'm pf the opinion the only way something truly stops is when both sides use it as a weapon."

I think this is true. Tit for tat works.

Bitch McConnell refused to do tit for tat with Reid and he's a big loser for it.

Posted by: Sexypig at May 25, 2016 06:00 PM (UBBWX)

778 I know what your talking about.
You don't know what your talking about

You don't like Trump, fine, there are plenty of things to hate about him. But Eminent Domain is not one of them. You obviously do not understand how that works
Posted by: Nevergiveup at May 25, 2016 05:57 PM (Ozsfq)

Please tell me how it's acceptable to force people to sell their property against their will for your own private profit.

If you're actually interested in convincing me instead of insulting me, please- help me out here.

Posted by: Matt from WY at May 25, 2016 06:00 PM (RSa+S)

779 "HE HASN'T DONE THE BARE MINIMUMS TO GET MY VOTE. "

He ran you puss.

Posted by: nip at May 25, 2016 06:00 PM (r73Jl)

780 The protesters have punched and slapped the horses - deliberately trying to make them bolt, in hopes of setting off greater violence.

Could we please, for once, give these aholes what they want. Preferably in large calibers.

Posted by: pep at May 25, 2016 06:00 PM (LAe3v)

781 How about Jobs?
Posted by: Nevergiveup at May 25, 2016 05:53 PM (Ozsfq)

He's dead.

But seriously, I'm not voting for a big govt lib to run the govt, no matter how much money he's made. Belief about the proper role of govt matters .

Posted by: chique d'afrique, former Republican at May 25, 2016 06:00 PM (nIGPZ)

782 >>>771 Please explain how it works then.
Posted by: LOL Kabong at May 25, 2016 05:58 PM (MCmqp)
Nah, done it to often. Take a civics class and then get back to me

Translation: "...look over there, a huge distraction!" *poof*

Posted by: LOL Kabong at May 25, 2016 06:00 PM (MCmqp)

783 Still, I find the people who then think Hillary to be a good alternative are just strange. I cannot make that logical leap.

Posted by: Aetius451AD at May 25, 2016 05:51 PM (3ZoRf)

I'm trying, in my own small way, to keep BernieBros wound up to sabotage a Clinton or Biden candidacy.

So I am actively working against the left.

Me voting for the Juggalo will achieve *literally* nothing, though, so I don't have to worry about that one thing.

I don't expect any miracles in the next few months, so I expect that, one way or another, the next several years will suck. I hope they suck less than I think they will.

Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of the Sith at May 25, 2016 06:00 PM (wB8Tg)

784 I used a meme a couple months ago:

The GOP Establishment.
They want Jeb.
They'll settle for Hill.
They'll get Trump.

I mentally noted that it crosses the aisle twice. It's good that we are examining what that holds that line up.

Posted by: BourbonChicken at May 25, 2016 06:01 PM (VdICR)

785 We all know that TFG won't keep his yap shut after he leaves office and especially if Trump is the President. He will prattle on about how bad Trump is and I would welcome a Trump POTUS to look straight in the camera and say "The ramblings of a disastrous communist loving fairy don't interest me. Do what you do best and get back to Man's Country."

Posted by: Cheri at May 25, 2016 06:01 PM (oiNtH)

786 Please tell me how it's acceptable to force people to sell their property against their will for your own private profit.

If you're actually interested in convincing me instead of insulting me, please- help me out here.
Posted by: Matt from WY at May 25, 2016 06:00 PM (RSa+S)

Do you even know who has the power under eminent domain to seize private property?

Posted by: Nevergiveup at May 25, 2016 06:01 PM (Ozsfq)

787 I will vote Trump for two reasons.

SCOTUS
And I KNOW Hillary is a tyrant wannabe

Posted by: Wolf Spider at May 25, 2016 06:01 PM (m3iiU)

788 I do not like Trump at all. I am a die hard Ted Cruz fan. Whatever Trump's foibles - and there are quite a few - he does not have a hate on for the USA, the country you have sought refuge in.

By allowing Hilary Clinton to win, you will have set in motion the final process by which the USA turns into the place you escaped from.

Voting Trump guarantees nothing. Allowing Hilary to win guarantees doom.

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at May 25, 2016 04:44 PM (p4UlV)

I am with you on this. And what if we're pleasantly surprised if Trump wins and his executive actions are actually wonderful. That would put the whipped cream on the pineapple up-side-down cake. What a blessed novelty that would be. Could happen.

Posted by: washrivergal at May 25, 2016 06:01 PM (CFc5L)

789 I don't have to be for Trump, I just have to be for x-who-is-not-Hillary.

A lot of the arguments given for Trump are not so much referenced examples of what Trump will do, but how he's not as much a risk of it as Hillary.

So put me down as voting for x-who-is-not-Hillary (Trump).

Posted by: Axeman at May 25, 2016 06:01 PM (2mC6G)

790 I'm still voting for Gary Johnson.

Team America.

Fuck yeah.

Lightning Bolt!!!!

Lightning Bolt!!!!

Lightning Bolt!!!!!!!!!

See?

That's the way you do cos-play. Not with your politics.

Posted by: naturalfake at May 25, 2016 06:01 PM (0cMkb)

791 Anyone have large rifle primers?

Posted by: Weasel at May 25, 2016 06:01 PM (e3bId)

792 765 Posted by: Matt from WY at May 25, 2016 05:58 PM (RSa+S)

DJT has not sold US Foreign Policy goals to the Muslim Brotherhood and China...

HRC has.

HRC set up a literal Foggy Bottom crime family...

Trump being a New Englander who deals like a New Englander bothers me a lot less than that.

Posted by: sven10077 at May 25, 2016 06:01 PM (g8Hfr)

793 I'm gonna issue a blanket "Lighten Up Francis" to the lot of You...

Posted by: donna at May 25, 2016 06:01 PM (O2RFr)

794 This is actually kind of funny.

Rolling Stone magazine is criticizing Hillary's most recent attack ad on Trump. It's based on his making a comment in 2006 that when the real estate bubble bursts he could jump in and make a lot of money. The heartless Scrooge!

Rolling Stone points out that the real culprits included the Big Banks who helped create the bubble -- the ones that Hillary got bribed by. Touche.

Please now return to the circle jerk.

Posted by: Ignoramus at May 25, 2016 06:02 PM (r1fLd)

795 That list someone typed up for him, and that he later said were just suggestions?

I'd take Trump over Hillary, but he's still a roll of the dice. He might be worse.
Posted by: Sexypig

I'd rather take a chance than certain defeat.

Trump is a transactional guy, I honestly like my chances with him on judges.

The alternative is Hillary. Say goodbye to gun rights and better get your kids used to tranny bathrooms at their Elementary School.

Posted by: Jamers at May 25, 2016 06:02 PM (LZgax)

796 The Airing of the Grievances is a delicate and time consuming process. It must not be rushed. "

That and a distressing lack of gun chatter makes the 1K mark hard to hit.

And donuts.

Posted by: Anon a mouse... at May 25, 2016 06:02 PM (C9pBZ)

797 "Has anyone figured out (if true) why Bill Clinton encouraged Trump to run?"

Clinton probably figured he'd just make the GOP look foolish.

Posted by: Sexypig at May 25, 2016 06:02 PM (UBBWX)

798 So if Trump becomes President and sets the course of the GOP, who stands (even ineffectively, even if only in words) for small government, individual liberties, Federalism, and other vital conservative principles? Cruz, Lee, and Sasse without a party?

Posted by: person at May 25, 2016 06:02 PM (mFkVC)

799 Most of Trump's supporters are the imbeciles who have never voted. They're stupid and smell and work for me for what I care to pay them. They deserve a seat at the bar, not my political party.

If you want a party of schlubs go start your own.

Posted by: The Real Deal at May 25, 2016 06:02 PM (RcpcZ)

800
Has anyone figured out (if true) why Bill Clinton encouraged Trump to run?
Posted by: Mimzey
--------------------------

I think he did, because he knew it would sow chaos in the Republican party.

And then, he got what he wished for . . . . (ominous music)

Posted by: iforgot at May 25, 2016 06:02 PM (pC96u)

801 668
That's exactly right. I think a lot of people are just deliberately refusing to see this.

Can anyone here say that he *wouldn't* weaponize the IRS in the same way that Obama has? Hmm?
Posted by: chemjeff at May 25, 2016 05:47 PM (uAvJJ)
----------------------
IMO, he would be quite likely to do that.

But Donna &&& has a very good point. The MSM, which looked the other way when Obama did it, would be screaming for the Orange Clown's head 24/7.

Charles Colson did hard time for having 3 FBI files on his desk. His boss Nixon resigned in disgrace. 24/7 coverage.
What happened to the Clintons when they "found" 600+ FBI files in their personal residence? NOTHING. Page 32-C.

Posted by: Margarita DeVille at May 25, 2016 06:03 PM (T/5A0)

802 DJT has not sold US Foreign Policy goals to the Muslim Brotherhood and China...

HRC has.

HRC set up a literal Foggy Bottom crime family...

Trump being a New Englander who deals like a New Englander bothers me a lot less than that.
Posted by: sven10077 at May 25, 2016 06:01 PM (g8Hfr)

But Donald Trump's actual life convinces me that he would do exactly that, if he were given the chance and could make a profit. He's done equally despicable things, just on a lower level of power.

Posted by: Matt from WY at May 25, 2016 06:03 PM (RSa+S)

803 "I do think the Never Trump people are idiots.
Just don't vote.
Most people's votes don't matter anyways.
OH, FL, and VA voting counts.
NYC Republicans don't matter. California Republicans don't matter."
-Posted by: Sexypig at May 25, 2016 05:59 PM (UBBWX)

I'm from Ohio. I'm voting for those down on the ticket. I'll not put my fingerprints on Trump.

Posted by: Slapweasel, (Cold1), (T) at May 25, 2016 06:03 PM (OQ9R7)

804 But seriously, I'm not voting for a big govt lib to run the govt, no matter how much money he's made. Belief about the proper role of govt matters .
Posted by: chique d'afrique, former Republican at May 25, 2016 06:00 PM (nIGPZ)

You keep calling him a big government liberal- and that is not a given. And as I and others have tried to point out, what he is running against - the democratic party- has morphed into a socialist/communist party. The Center has shifted.

Posted by: Nevergiveup at May 25, 2016 06:03 PM (Ozsfq)

805 All that said, the NeverTrump stuff has been something close to a religious fervor. Something about Trump just seems to make people deranged with hate towards him.
Posted by: Mark Andrew Edwards at May 25, 2016 05:57 PM (F19Oi)

Because he's a pathological liar, and an authoritarian with no regard for the constitution. He's unfit for office.

I've hated him since the late 80s. He's a punchline, and now he's our nominee. fucking hell.
Ok, sorry, off to make make chili and margaritas.

Posted by: stace at May 25, 2016 06:03 PM (ozZau)

806 I would arm the police with lances and sabres, if it was up to me.

Posted by: Skip at May 25, 2016 06:03 PM (3wHFl)

807 Given that Trump is #AlwaysHillary (or will reveal himself to be once the ballots are printed), I'll remain #NeverTrump.

It's about having something in 2024...assuming there is a 2024.

Posted by: steveegg at May 25, 2016 06:03 PM (v6+HN)

808 708 OK, folks. Which of these hills should we die on.

1. Repeal ObamaCare
2. Ban abortion
3. Reverse gay marriage
4. No minimum wage increases
5. Cut Social Security and Medicare benefits
6. Put new Scalias on SCOTUS
7. Stop acting like illegals have a right to be here
8. Deny CAGW; reverse EPA overreach
9. Recut trade deals; insist on trade balance

Picking too many makes you unelectable. Some like #2 and #3 may be unachievable.
Posted by: Ignoramus at May 25, 2016 05:52 PM (r1fLd)

For me, 1 and 5.

For 1: Repeal. Period. Do not replace. The government has no role in entitlements.

For 5: Cutting is meaningless. SS, etc. are Ponzi schemes. Yes, people are going to get hurt. It is a choice of fewer people by acting sooner or far more people hurt much worse by acting later. I can live with some form of phase out over 10 years or so.

For everything else, I think there is a better way to deal with it than your items suggest.

Posted by: Damiano at May 25, 2016 06:04 PM (71OEY)

809 785
We all know that TFG won't keep his yap shut after he leaves office and
especially if Trump is the President. He will prattle on about how bad
Trump is and I would welcome a Trump POTUS to look straight in the
camera and say "The ramblings of a disastrous communist loving fairy
don't interest me. Do what you do best and get back to Man's Country."

Posted by: Cheri at May 25, 2016 06:01 PM (oiNtH)

There wouldn't be enough popcorn in the world. Lawdy, I'd pay good money for that to happen.

Posted by: Jane D'oh at May 25, 2016 06:04 PM (1ZOkK)

810 >>I don't like Trump, but Hillary will be the killing blow to this country.

My sole reason for voting this November will be to deny her what she craves.
---------------
You mean puthy?

Posted by: Mike Tyson at May 25, 2016 06:04 PM (c7vUv)

811 Cruz, Lee, and Sasse without a party?

Posted by: person

Which would differ from now how, exactly?

Posted by: pep at May 25, 2016 06:04 PM (LAe3v)

812 We could use a nice thread with kitten videos and puppies.

Posted by: Jane D'oh at May 25, 2016 06:05 PM (1ZOkK)

813 I have some hope that the under card elections will still largely go to Republicans no matter what Trump does get.

Posted by: Skip at May 25, 2016 06:05 PM (3wHFl)

814 >>>If you're "let it burn" and "#neverTrump", then why not vote for Trump?

Seriously? Because there might be some residual value in having ethical standards at some point in my life.

Posted by: MikeTheMoose at May 25, 2016 06:05 PM (0q2P7)

815 The protesters have punched and slapped the horses - deliberately trying
to make them bolt, in hopes of setting off greater violence.

Cannon to right of them,

Cannon to left of them,

Cannon behind them

Volley'd and thunder'd;

Storm'd at with shot and shell,

While horse and hero fell,

They that had fought so well

Came thro' the jaws of Death

Back from the mouth of Hell,

All that was left of them,

Left of six hundred.

Posted by: Count de Monet at May 25, 2016 06:05 PM (JO9+V)

816 811

Now, the party at least PRETENDS.

Posted by: person at May 25, 2016 06:05 PM (mFkVC)

817 I would arm the police with lances and sabres, if it was up to me.

And those pointy things that they stick on the end of the rifles.

Posted by: Cicero (@cicero) at May 25, 2016 06:05 PM (8ZskC)

818 "If Hitler invaded Hell, I would make at least a favourable reference to the devil in the House of Commons." - Winston Churchill

If Churchill could set aside his revulsion toward Stalin and Soviet Communism to find common cause to fight Hitler and Nazism, I can back Trump against Hitlery Clinton.

Posted by: goatexchange at May 25, 2016 06:05 PM (Nd4YY)

819 Well, I've never been a #nevertrump, but it's a good thing Trump doesn't need my vote

Posted by: DiesIrae at May 25, 2016 06:06 PM (HB66j)

820 Say goodbye to gun rights and better get your kids used to tranny bathrooms at their Elementary School.

What leads you to believe that Trump wouldn't also attempt to demand tranny bathrooms at elementary schools?

Posted by: chemjeff at May 25, 2016 06:06 PM (uAvJJ)

821 By all means when the democrats are on the verge of a huge split, it's the time for yet another quixotic battle

Posted by: ThunderB at May 25, 2016 06:06 PM (zOTsN)

822 798 Posted by: person at May 25, 2016 06:02 PM (mFkVC)

*We* do at the grassroots level...

Look guy it is over we lost....

we lost b/c we refused to attackm the NEA and the Media...

we lost b/c when they had the power of the purse and Presidency they ran up the debt like a kid with mom's purse...

The American public does NOT WANT Constitutional Governance....

They want Reality TV and Free Shit....

I hate it to the point that a decade ago I'd have been near depressive over it...

Trump gives us a chance to win the argument....

Hillary will be actively empowering the hills we have to climb.

Posted by: sven10077 at May 25, 2016 06:06 PM (g8Hfr)

823 "NeoCons failed with Iraq, compounded by the mistakes
of Obama/Hillary -- hence our isolationist bent. Energy Independence is
a game changer.

...
Posted by: Ignoramus at May 25, 2016 04:50 PM (r1fLd)"

Actually, when George Bush left office Iraq was a success. Saddam Hussein and his family were dead and gone, elections had been held and there was no overt hostility between the Shia and the Sunni. There was no more warfare and the Iraqi economy was starting to grow.

All that was required was for Obama to leave well enough alone and not pull out the American troops while a couple of generations grew up in the new reality as had happened in Korea, Japan and Germany.

Instead Obama took out the American troops while cleverly ginning up a civil war in Syria. ISIS is the result.
The new spirit of isolationism is related to our new found energy independence but mostly from the realization that Vietnam was not a one off event. Democrats will not rest until they have undone the results of every American military victory, and as Sideshow bob said, "You can't keep a Democrat out of the White House forever."

Posted by: Obnoxious A-Hole at May 25, 2016 06:06 PM (QHgTq)

824 If Churchill could set aside his revulsion toward Stalin and Soviet Communism to find common cause to fight Hitler and Nazism, I can back Trump against Hitlery Clinton.
Posted by: goatexchange at May 25, 2016 06:05 PM (Nd4YY)

Well said

Posted by: Nevergiveup at May 25, 2016 06:06 PM (Ozsfq)

825 Than I guess we need a push to have Eminent Domain removed from the Constitution?

Look, developers have a soft spot for this. I don't agree with Trump on the issue but this is a gnat-sized ideological problem.

It's not like there this huge rash of local governments buying up people's houses. He's not going to put a casino in your grandma's house when he becomes President.

Posted by: Jamers at May 25, 2016 06:06 PM (LZgax)

826 "And people keep insisting Trump is a dumb shit. He did this on purpose
so now Obama can't slide Biden in as easily (his ego won't allow Trump
to be right)"

Yeah, Obama would be totally humiliated while stood there watching Biden take the oath of office.

Posted by: Baron Von Ottomatic at May 25, 2016 06:06 PM (ktzHq)

827 What a pathetic display. Ace is an unprincipled, spineless jellyfish.

Never Trump.

Posted by: A at May 25, 2016 06:06 PM (aknEk)

828 817 I would arm the police with lances and sabres, if it was up to me.

And those pointy things that they stick on the end of the rifles.

Posted by: Cicero (@cicero)
817 I would arm the police with lances and sabres, if it was up to me.

And those pointy things that they stick on the end of the rifles.

Posted by: Cicero (@cicero)

But the old style, with a triangular cross section. Makes a wound that doesn't heal.

Posted by: pep at May 25, 2016 06:06 PM (LAe3v)

829 Bayonets.

Posted by: SMFH while circling the drain... at May 25, 2016 06:07 PM (rlfds)

830 Charles Colson did hard time for having 3 FBI files on his desk.
=============================================

Set in motion a chain of events that would change his life, and the lives of thousands of others.

They meant it for evil. God meant it for good.

Posted by: grammie winger at May 25, 2016 06:07 PM (dFi94)

831 Jeebus, 800+ comments again. It's not worth it.

Best of luck to everyone, I recommend the Kilgore Trout piece for the curious.

Posted by: SparcVark at May 25, 2016 06:07 PM (YLLI8)

832 >>>See?
>>>That's the way you do cos-play. Not with your politics.

And you wonder why people won't vote for Trump.

Posted by: MikeTheMoose at May 25, 2016 06:07 PM (0q2P7)

833 I've been "radio silent" on the issue for nearly two months.

For the sake of the blog and my mental health.

...but mostly my mental health.

Posted by: Slapweasel, (Cold1), (T) at May 25, 2016 06:07 PM (OQ9R7)

834 He's done equally despicable things"

Really? I missed the part where he oversaw the wanton murder of US officials overseas.

Do enlighten.

Posted by: Anon a mouse... at May 25, 2016 06:08 PM (C9pBZ)

835 sigh of relief.

Posted by: grandmalcaesar at May 25, 2016 06:08 PM (yrohn)

836 What leads you to believe that Trump wouldn't also attempt to demand tranny bathrooms at elementary schools?

Posted by: chemjeff

What makes you think he won't grow wings, multiply the fishes and loaves, and ascend to heaven?

Posted by: pep at May 25, 2016 06:08 PM (LAe3v)

837 Posted by: Obnoxious A-Hole at May 25, 2016 06:06 PM (QHgTq)
================================================

Amen. And thank you.

Posted by: grammie winger at May 25, 2016 06:08 PM (dFi94)

838 I'd like to ask Trump if he should be able to sell his luxury apartments to foreigners like Chinese, Arabs, and Mexicans.

Does he understand he's letting them live in America when he does that?

Does he understand he's selling the sacred soil to a foreigner?

Because he's really big on telling me not to buy things (or sell things) to foreigners via trade, but he's fine when he's making the money selling something to foreigners.

or marrying them.
Posted by: Sexypig at May 25, 2016 05:56 PM (UBBWX)

Or manufacturing his own products in Chyna.

Posted by: chique d'afrique, former Republican at May 25, 2016 06:09 PM (nIGPZ)

839 Than I guess we need a push to have Eminent Domain removed from the Constitution?

Look, developers have a soft spot for this. I don't agree with Trump on the issue but this is a gnat-sized ideological problem.

It's not like there this huge rash of local governments buying up people's houses. He's not going to put a casino in your grandma's house when he becomes President.
Posted by: Jamers at May 25, 2016 06:06 PM (LZgax)

Eminent Domain for public use is what's in the constitution, not for private profit. And I happen to think it's a huge deal, if someone would use the power of the state to force someone else to sell their property unwillingly so they could make a profit. I think that shows their character, and is a pretty good indication of what he would actually do in office, more so than what he says at campaign rallies.

Posted by: Matt from WY at May 25, 2016 06:09 PM (RSa+S)

840 If Churchill could set aside his revulsion toward Stalin and Soviet Communism to find common cause to fight Hitler and Nazism, I can back Trump against Hitlery Clinton.

Posted by: goatexchange at May 25, 2016 06:05 PM (Nd4YY)

ಠ_ಠ

Posted by: Poland at May 25, 2016 06:09 PM (Z8xbi)

841 Bayonets.

Posted by: SMFH while circling the drain... at May 25, 2016 06:07 PM (rlfds)

Yeah, and those too.

Posted by: Cicero (@cicero) at May 25, 2016 06:09 PM (8ZskC)

842 820

Right now, he wants to be elected, so he plays to the base. In office, he will want his performance praised, so he will play to the media. His policy goal will be to have his ego stroked by the news networks.

Posted by: person at May 25, 2016 06:09 PM (mFkVC)

843 699 Given the choice between two shit sandwiches, my response will always be, "none for me thanks."

Can I interest you in our new dollar menu?

Posted by: Burger King at May 25, 2016 06:10 PM (ztBLK)

844 whew, yes we already know what Hillary's been involved in, the deaths in benghazi. we know she facillitated those wrecks syria and libya, yemen. we know she was involved in selling off assets while acting like no one was dying anywhere.
we know what IRS can be used for now.

we know the MEDIA and the Seante and Congress will roll over for Her just like Obama.

this is our chance to slow things down.
This Trump will have everyone against Him fighting tooth and nail

media, fed govt.

see this isn't so bad.

Posted by: willow at May 25, 2016 06:10 PM (mL2BD)

845 Ace: "Do you guys actually want Hillary Clinton in office..."

No. Of course, you're right. At this point, we have no choice but to vote for Trump and hope he isn't as ruinous as he might possibly be; because we know just how ruinous Hillary would be.

But my one concern about Trump: The "Only Nixon Could Go to China" factor. Only a president with an R after their name could, for example, ram through congress really devastating gun control legislation. Will Trump do that? Who knows. I guess we'll elect the candidate to find out what's inside him.

Posted by: Pastafarian at May 25, 2016 06:10 PM (+EU58)

846 Party favors and candidates' positions have no direct bearing on facts of historic events. W's public projections of the available intelligence and projections by his administration bore no resemblance to the actual assessments of the various intelligence agencies. This is well documented in works by authors from the left, center, and right and is easily accessible to anyone with any interest in researching it.

Posted by: RioBravo at May 25, 2016 05:48 PM (NUqwG)

Trump used the word "lied". Not argued for, not made a case for, lied. He accused a sitting US president of misrepresenting the truth for his own reasons, an action that would almost inevitably result in Americans dying and American treasure being expended. It's a cardinal animating philosophy of the progressive left to delegitimize 9/11 and the terror threat, and characterizing Bush's actions with regard to Iraq as lies is part of that effort. This places Trump much closer the mainstream of the Democratic party than to the mainstream of the Republican party (or where I thought the party used to be, anyway). Maybe that's where the votes are, but it's interesting, again, that Trump's outreach to Democrats mostly involves promising free stuff and agreeing with their critiques of Republicans.

Posted by: Cody's Feed Bag at May 25, 2016 06:10 PM (XiVKO)

847 Help Us Obi Wan Ace, You're our only hope.... New thread ASAP!

Posted by: donna at May 25, 2016 06:10 PM (O2RFr)

848 Looks like Ace heard that #NeverTrump harpy (who may, or may not have been a Cruz supporter) on Rush today.

I support Cruz but that woman seriously got on my nerves.

Posted by: CPT. Charles at May 25, 2016 06:10 PM (ry4ab)

849 "What leads you to believe that Trump wouldn't also attempt to demand tranny bathrooms at elementary schools?

Posted by: chemjeff at May 25, 2016 06:06 PM (uAvJJ)"

I believe that Trump will not fight terribly hard to prevent tranny bathrooms at elementary schools but he does not really care. He will not be issuing executive orders requiring them and if there is some political capital to be had in opposing them, he will oppose them.

Posted by: Obnoxious A-Hole at May 25, 2016 06:10 PM (QHgTq)

850 If you're "let it burn" and "#neverTrump", then why not vote for Trump?

Seriously? Because there might be some residual value in having ethical standards at some point in my life.
Posted by: MikeTheMoose at May 25, 2016 06:05 PM (0q2P7)

sounds good on paper
but, you're just voting for Hillary

you're prerogative /shrug idc

but it just sounds silly
the reality is Hillary wins
so, stubborness will destroy your child's future more and much quicker

again /shrug

Posted by: artisanal 'ette at May 25, 2016 06:10 PM (qCMvj)

851 817 I would arm the police with lances and sabres, if it was up to me.

And those pointy things that they stick on the end of the rifles.
Posted by: Cicero (@cicero) at May 25, 2016 06:05 PM (8ZskC)

Crossbows would be good too.

With flaming arrows.

Posted by: Donna&&&&V (a white) (whitely brandishing ampersand privilege ) at May 25, 2016 06:10 PM (P8951)

852 >>>He ran you puss.

Ummmm. So what?

Posted by: MikeTheMoose at May 25, 2016 06:10 PM (0q2P7)

853 Eminent Domain for public use is what's in the constitution, not for private profit. And I happen to think it's a huge deal, if someone would use the power of the state to force someone else to sell their property unwillingly so they could make a profit. I think that shows their character, and is a pretty good indication of what he would actually do in office, more so than what he says at campaign rallies.
Posted by: Matt from WY at May 25, 2016 06:09 PM (RSa+S)

You really should stop digging.

Posted by: Nevergiveup at May 25, 2016 06:10 PM (Ozsfq)

854 goatexchange at May 25, 2016 06:05 PM

Do you, by chance, happen to be a writer? With a web site, newspaper column, or perhaps a newsletter to which we might subscribe?

Posted by: Universal Unction, for all those irritations in your life at May 25, 2016 06:10 PM (kBd14)

855 What makes you think he won't grow wings, multiply the fishes and loaves, and ascend to heaven?

Posted by: pep at May 25, 2016 06:08 PM (LAe3v)
Well for starters, there is actual evidence of Trump siding with the left on the NC bathroom law. There is no evidence of Trump performing miraculous works.

Posted by: chemjeff at May 25, 2016 06:10 PM (uAvJJ)

856 843 699 Given the choice between two shit sandwiches, my response will always be, "none for me thanks."

Can I interest you in our new dollar menu?

Posted by: Burger King

Hey, they're stealing our menu!

Posted by: Taco Bell at May 25, 2016 06:10 PM (LAe3v)

857 Than I guess we need a push to have Eminent Domain removed from the Constitution?

Look, developers have a soft spot for this. I don't agree with Trump on the issue but this is a gnat-sized ideological problem.

It's not like there this huge rash of local governments buying up people's houses. He's not going to put a casino in your grandma's house when he becomes President.

If he's offering five times what it's worth, Grams is moving.

Posted by: rickb223 at May 25, 2016 06:10 PM (EdhH3)

858 "If Hitler invaded Hell, I would make at least a favourable reference to the devil in the House of Commons." - Winston Churchill

If Churchill could set aside his revulsion toward Stalin and Soviet Communism to find common cause to fight Hitler and Nazism, I can back Trump against Hitlery Clinton.

Posted by: goatexchange at May 25, 2016 06:05 PM (Nd4YY)

Stalin didn't exactly bomb London in 1940.

Posted by: steveegg at May 25, 2016 06:10 PM (v6+HN)

859 Eminent Domain for public use is what's in the constitution, not for private profit. And I happen to think it's a huge deal, if someone would use the power of the state to force someone else to sell their property unwillingly so they could make a profit. I think that shows their character, and is a pretty good indication of what he would actually do in office, more so than what he says at campaign rallies.
Posted by: Matt from WY

It's clear you really don't understand Eminent Domain.

Posted by: Jamers at May 25, 2016 06:11 PM (LZgax)

860 Right now, he wants to be elected, so he plays to the base. In office, he will want his performance praised, so he will play to the media. His policy goal will be to have his ego stroked by the news networks.
Posted by: person at May 25, 2016 06:09 PM (mFkVC)

It must be comforting to see the future so clearly.

Posted by: Cicero (@cicero) at May 25, 2016 06:11 PM (8ZskC)

861 >>You keep calling him a big government liberal- and that is not a given. And as I and others have tried to point out, what he is running against - the democratic party- has morphed into a socialist/communist party. The Center has shifted.

Do you think you are telling people here anything new? We talk about this shit daily. We know it as well as you do.

Not sure how to get this across to you but what you say isn't a given many of us think is very likely. We think Trump is every bit as liberal as Hillary.

Here's an issue. Trump says he will not touch entitlements. We are in a budget death spiral and Trump won't touch the single biggest contributing factor. That is no different at all from Hillary and it will end this country ever bit as dead as terrorism and other hostiles.

That's where Trump (and by extension those of you who seem to want to convince us) has work to do. Make a case why his do nothing is better than Hillary's do nothing.

Posted by: JackStraw at May 25, 2016 06:11 PM (/tuJf)

862 You really should stop digging.
Posted by: Nevergiveup at May 25, 2016 06:10 PM (Ozsfq)

Thanks for your opinion.

Posted by: Matt from WY at May 25, 2016 06:11 PM (RSa+S)

863

lots of time for Trump to either 1, convince more people to vote for him with actions, not words, or 2, do as Ace says above and blow himself up

I'm actually hoping he'll do the right thing. We've got nothing left at this point. We know Hillary.

Posted by: artisanal 'ette at May 25, 2016 06:11 PM (qCMvj)

864 The Republic is gone either way, so hunker down and ammo up and stay #NeverTrump. If you think that is virtue signalling try dropping that line on a prog. Ace started this piece with a rational argument but then devolved into the SJW/Obamaite tactic of casting opponents arguments as bad faith (#NeverReallyConservative, only virtue signalling) rather than principled opposition.

I am largely with Patrick Henry, the 2nd. Trump will do all of those same terrible things Hillary would while selling the rubes magic vitamins.

Posted by: motionview at May 25, 2016 06:12 PM (REufr)

865 also we can laugh our rears off a for the next four years at the media , the senate, congress being scandalized daily by what Trump wants to do
.
finally they might actually like their jobs as fighters for America.

crosses fingers.

Posted by: willow at May 25, 2016 06:12 PM (mL2BD)

866 *pulls down the shade*

Posted by: Slapweasel, (Cold1), (T) at May 25, 2016 06:12 PM (OQ9R7)

867 842 - That's about how I see it, a occasional conservative decision with lots of leftist decisions.

Posted by: Skip at May 25, 2016 06:12 PM (3wHFl)

868 Stalin didn't exactly bomb London in 1940.
Posted by: steveegg at May 25, 2016 06:10 PM (v6+HN)

And Trump hasn't sicced the IRS on the Right.

Posted by: Cicero (@cicero) at May 25, 2016 06:12 PM (8ZskC)

869 What the #NeverTrump alpha hotels do not realize is they have no credibility.

How come no #NeverObama in 2008/2012?

How come no #NeverAgainHillary in 2016?

They are a day late and a ball sack short of when and where they were and are really needed.

Posted by: Hairyback Guy at May 25, 2016 06:12 PM (ej1L0)

870 I'm voting for Trump. Considering the disaster of Hillary....for crying out loud, we're not Latin America yet, and if we are to destroy ourselves, I want to go down fighting with someone who at least likes the country and its people.

Posted by: PJ at May 25, 2016 06:13 PM (cHuNI)

871 I thought Ace was a #NeverTrump-Er?

Posted by: Mark at May 25, 2016 06:13 PM (LR7VL)

872
@840

Yalta happened latter, I think.

Posted by: Universal Unction, for all those irritations in your life at May 25, 2016 06:13 PM (kBd14)

873 Well for starters, there is actual evidence of Trump siding with the left on the NC bathroom law. There is no evidence of Trump performing miraculous works.
Posted by: chemjeff at May 25, 2016 06:10 PM (uAvJJ)

My biggest fear with Trump is as always, I think he loves obamacare. I don't trust him on this at all.

Posted by: artisanal 'ette at May 25, 2016 06:13 PM (qCMvj)

874 *turns the page*

Posted by: Bob Seger at May 25, 2016 06:13 PM (JO9+V)

875 849

Trump takes any criticism of his policies or ideas - in fact, anything other then worshipful support - as a personal slight and fights back with every bit of nastiness and deceitfulness he can muster. He will do this in office to conservatives even if they oppose something he doesn't care about very much, because he takes political slights as personal affronts.

Posted by: person at May 25, 2016 06:13 PM (mFkVC)

876 Here's an issue. Trump says he will not touch entitlements. We are in a budget death spiral and Trump won't touch the single biggest contributing factor. That is no different at all from Hillary and it will end this country ever bit as dead as terrorism and other hostiles.

That's where Trump (and by extension those of you who seem to want to convince us) has work to do. Make a case why his do nothing is better than Hillary's do nothing.
Posted by: JackStraw at May 25, 2016 06:11 PM (/tuJf)

I was sorry to see him say he would not touch entitlements..but from guns to Judges Trump has staked out positions to the right, some far to the right of the Dems and the FAB. Now you may not think he is sincere, but the positions he is stating now are to the right of the dems.

Posted by: Nevergiveup at May 25, 2016 06:13 PM (Ozsfq)

877 >>>sounds good on paper
>>>but, you're just voting for Hillary

The only way you can assert that is an assumption you are owed my vote. You are not.

Posted by: MikeTheMoose at May 25, 2016 06:14 PM (0q2P7)

878 "You don't like Trump, fine, there are plenty of things to hate about
him. But Eminent Domain is not one of them. You obviously do not
understand how that works"

So you agree with the Kelo decision and would want Trump to nominate SCOTUS justices who also support it?

Posted by: Baron Von Ottomatic at May 25, 2016 06:14 PM (ktzHq)

879 And Trump hasn't sicced the IRS on the Right.

Posted by: Cicero (@cicero) at May 25, 2016 06:12 PM (8ZskC)

Give him half a chance. When he wasn't busy funding the Clintons and their fellow DemocRATs, he was funding the anti-conservative wing of the RepublicRAT Party.

Posted by: steveegg at May 25, 2016 06:14 PM (v6+HN)

880
Right now, he wants to be elected, so he plays to the base. In office, he will want his performance praised, so he will play to the media. His policy goal will be to have his ego stroked by the news networks.

I see,so the strickauthoritarian upon gaining high office will immediately turn into a preening squish.got it

Posted by: Flawless Male Logic at May 25, 2016 06:15 PM (lKyWE)

881 Well said ace. As a Cruz supporter I was pissed when he dropped out and told myself there is no way I'm voting for Trump. As the days progressed and my anger wore off I went to the next logical step. #neverhillary. And that means it looks like, once again I'll be holding my nose and voting for Trump if he is the nominee.

Posted by: Bosk at May 25, 2016 06:15 PM (n2K+4)

882 Trump does not, and has never claimed, to hate foreigners.
He is against ILLEGAL immigrants.
He is against trade deals that disadvantage the USA.
He's at as in st the USA being everyone's bitch.

Posted by: @votermom at May 25, 2016 06:15 PM (7lVbc)

883 What leads you to believe that Trump wouldn't also attempt to demand tranny bathrooms at elementary schools?

Posted by: chemjeff

What makes you think he won't grow wings, multiply the fishes and loaves, and ascend to heaven?

Posted by: pep at May 25, 2016 06:08 PM (LAe3v)

Be sure to spend some time worrying about Trump's secret agenda to sell us into Martian slavery.

Posted by: Methos, AoS commenter since 2006, now apparently non-voting democrat at May 25, 2016 06:15 PM (3Liv/)

884 Posted by: person at May 25, 2016 06:13 PM (mFkVC)

Ya know just a tip from a regular here...I have no idea 1/2 the time what you are saying since you only reference what you commenting on by a number, not by the actually post. We are up to over 800 comments, nobody has any freaken idea what you are commenting on

Posted by: Nevergiveup at May 25, 2016 06:15 PM (Ozsfq)

885 also we can laugh our rears off a for the next four years at the media , the senate, congress being scandalized daily by what Trump wants to do
.
finally they might actually like their jobs as fighters for America.

crosses fingers.
Posted by: willow at May 25, 2016 06:12 PM (mL2BD)

hehe, yep
that's how I feel

all you can do at this point is ride with it, and laugh

Posted by: artisanal 'ette at May 25, 2016 06:15 PM (qCMvj)

886 Give him half a chance. When he wasn't busy funding the Clintons and their fellow DemocRATs, he was funding the anti-conservative wing of the RepublicRAT Party.

Posted by: steveegg at May 25, 2016 06:14 PM (v6+HN)

You're right. You ABSOLUTELY should vote for Hillary then.

Posted by: Cicero (@cicero) at May 25, 2016 06:15 PM (8ZskC)

887 Meh. I won't vote for Hillary, but I'm certainly less motivated to show up at the polls than I have been in the last couple of decades.

If that means ace is going to say that I'm not a conservative, I don't really give a fuck.

Posted by: gm at May 25, 2016 06:15 PM (4ueYo)

888 790 I'm still voting for Gary Johnson.

Team America.

Fuck yeah.

Top. Gun. Actor.

Posted by: Insomniac at May 25, 2016 06:15 PM (0mRoj)

889 Trump will do all of those same terrible things Hillary"

Seriously? Dead Americans mean nothing?

Look, he's not my fave, but he beats the living snot out of electing Hildabeast.

Posted by: Anon a mouse... at May 25, 2016 06:15 PM (C9pBZ)

890 You keep calling him a big government liberal- and that is not a given. And as I and others have tried to point out, what he is running against - the democratic party- has morphed into a socialist/communist party. The Center has shifted.
Posted by: Nevergiveup at May 25, 2016 06:03 PM (Ozsfq)

He said likes single payer (who knows if he ever walked that back). Anderson Cooper (!) had to educate him that, no, his party doesn't believe education and housing are in the top 3 most important roles of government. He thinks he can unilaterally tell companies where to do business. Seems to me he is a big government liberal, to be kind.

Posted by: chique d'afrique, former Republican at May 25, 2016 06:15 PM (nIGPZ)

891 Given that there clearly are Republican/Conservative voters who will not vote for Trump, or might vote reluctantly for Trump but not work on his behalf nor send money to the RNC - who makes up that deficit?

Posted by: grammie winger at May 25, 2016 06:16 PM (dFi94)

892 "The only way you can assert that is an assumption you are owed my vote. You are not.
-Posted by: MikeTheMoose at May 25, 2016 06:14 PM (0q2P7)

Nicely played!
...with all that truth and shit.

Posted by: Slapweasel, (Cold1), (T) at May 25, 2016 06:16 PM (OQ9R7)

893 What's left to conserve?

Posted by: SMFH while circling the drain... at May 25, 2016 06:16 PM (rlfds)

894 880

No, he will be every bit the authoritarian, just in a way that many of his supporters right now won't like.

Posted by: person at May 25, 2016 06:16 PM (mFkVC)

895 I agree with the eminent willow: Trump will result in chaos, with EVERYONE checking and balancing everyone else (instead of the stealth support of Obama that we have now from Republican-majority Congress, USSC, and media). That's a good thing. The left-rolling steamroller of the past 8-20 years will grind to a halt. I don't care for the man, but Hillary will be able to do anything she wants. Does anyone want that?

Posted by: goatexchange at May 25, 2016 06:16 PM (Nd4YY)

896 why are "real conservatives" peddling democrat talking point ? trump
show me your taxes, trump you are a celebrity, trump you are hitler
and
your supporters are hitlerjugend ,
trump you have no principles, trump you stole an old ladies house
/eminent domain, trump you are an egomaniac....

people should
think back and try and remember
when and from whom they first heard about all of trump's sins; mass
medial perhaps ? did it start at politico or wapo and make its way to various blogs where these truths were further dissected? mass media - one true friend of true conservatives

Posted by: runner at May 25, 2016 06:16 PM (c6/9Q)

897 So you agree with the Kelo decision and would want Trump to nominate SCOTUS justices who also support it?
Posted by: Baron Von Ottomatic at May 25, 2016 06:14 PM (ktzHq)

And I said that where? Do you understand what eminent domain is who controls it? And what does Trump have to do with this?

Posted by: Nevergiveup at May 25, 2016 06:17 PM (Ozsfq)

898 "Here's an issue. Trump says he will not touch entitlements. We are in a budget death spiral and Trump won't touch the single biggest contributing factor."

It's not the thing to run on this cycle.

Trump says he wants to repeal ObamaCare but won't let people die in the streets, which is politic and an opening to start to deal with healthcare costs.

I don't want to hear from another Paul Ryan about how my future SocSec should get cut, when he's overseeing the massive theft that is our national budget.

Posted by: Ignoramus at May 25, 2016 06:17 PM (r1fLd)

899 The only way you can assert that is an assumption you are owed my vote. You are not.
Posted by: MikeTheMoose at May 25, 2016 06:14 PM (0q2P7)

nope, like I said I don't care

idc what you do

it's just silly

Posted by: artisanal 'ette at May 25, 2016 06:17 PM (qCMvj)

900 Well for starters, there is actual evidence of Trump siding with the left on the NC bathroom law. There is no evidence of Trump performing miraculous works.

And if there's one thing that's clear, it's that Trump will always do what's easy and popular with the press, you know, like advocating for a wall.

Nonetheless, with Trump, there's a solid chance he'll do the smart, politically expedient thing. In this case, people don't want Bubba in the stall next to their daughter. (or in her stall) With Hillary, it's assured.

As to miracles, I'd at least say getting the nomination qualifies.

Posted by: pep at May 25, 2016 06:17 PM (LAe3v)

901 Right now, he wants to be elected, so he plays to the base. In office, he will want his performance praised, so he will play to the media. His policy goal will be to have his ego stroked by the news networks.
Posted by: person at May 25, 2016 06:09 PM (mFkVC)

It must be comforting to see the future so clearly.

Posted by: Cicero

+1

Look, Trump has a history of taking INCREDIBLY unpopular positions that the media tries to crucify him over. Like Obama's birth certificate, immigration, calling Rosie O'Donnell a fat hypocrite pig because of her stance on gun control, global warming, etc

If he wanted to be a beloved NY billionaire developer he would simply parrot liberal talking points and be a Warren Buffett type figure.

He makes the media his rag doll.

Posted by: Jamers at May 25, 2016 06:17 PM (LZgax)

902 My biggest fear with Trump is as always, I think he loves obamacare. I don't trust him on this at all.

Every fucking R in office currently loves 404Care. They ALL said they would get rid of it. We GAVE them both houses to do it.

DID THEY??

Posted by: rickb223 at May 25, 2016 06:17 PM (EdhH3)

903 Ya know just a tip from a regular here...I have no idea 1/2 the time what you are saying since you only reference what you commenting on by a number, not by the actually post. We are up to over 800 comments, nobody has any freaken idea what you are commenting on
Posted by: Nevergiveup at May 25, 2016 06:15 PM (Ozsfq)
------

I know we don't agree on much, but thanks for the advice.

Posted by: person at May 25, 2016 06:18 PM (mFkVC)

904 I'd like to thank ace for this opportunity to further populate the ignore_user() cookie.

Posted by: DaveA at May 25, 2016 06:18 PM (DL2i+)

905 So you agree with the Kelo decision and would want Trump to nominate SCOTUS justices who also support it?"

Unlike, say, Bush?

Posted by: Anon a mouse... at May 25, 2016 06:18 PM (C9pBZ)

906 FWIW, I live in Colorado, in what (depressingly) is rated as the second-most-liberal district in the state. So my vote for Congress doesn't count, and as there are actual Hispanic citizens who comprise a significant voting block in this state and will come out in force against Trump, my vote at the presidential level won't matter either.

It's in the Senate where my vote and efforts could help. We got Mark Uterus out for Cory Gardner two years ago, and Bennet is broadly unpopular. Hopefully Trump can keep his mouth shut on Mexicans and just have a few chalupas and we can have two GOP senators from this state.

Posted by: Cody's Feed Bag at May 25, 2016 06:19 PM (XiVKO)

907 904 I'd like to thank ace for this opportunity to further populate the ignore_user() cookie.
Posted by: DaveA at May 25, 2016 06:18 PM (DL2i+)

---

Amen.

Posted by: SMFH while circling the drain... at May 25, 2016 06:19 PM (rlfds)

908 I'm don't even feel anger at Trump any more. But it wasn't anger that made me change my mind about supporting him in the general. As hard as it is for some people to acknowledge I actually had substantive reasons for withdrawing my support.

Posted by: chique d'afrique, former Republican at May 25, 2016 06:19 PM (nIGPZ)

909 >>>You're right. You ABSOLUTELY should vote for Hillary then.
Posted by: Cicero (@cicero) at May 25, 2016 06:15 PM (8ZskC)>>>

I'm not sure why you're trying to talk people into doing what you don't want them too, but whatever. People support Trump to give the GOP the middle finger. You want people inclined not to vote or maybe vote Trump to instead vote Hillary so that they can give the GOP AND you the middle finger? Doesn't sound like a sound strategy.

Posted by: gm at May 25, 2016 06:19 PM (4ueYo)

910 If conservatives really got into voter fraud on a massive scale, I think you would suddenly see bipartisan efforts at common sense reforms like Voter ID in all 50 states.

Posted by: Jamers at May 25, 2016 05:59 PM (LZgax)

Nope. That actually happened, back in (umm early 80s / late 70s), and the result was a one-sided injunction against the GOP that *prevented them from calling out the other side for the same thing*, which allowed the left to go apeshit with voter fraud and the GOP had to hope the MFM (HAHAHAHAHA) would Get Right On That.

The Party Of Government doesn't suffer from that sort of limitation.

(DNC vs. RNC 1982 - that's the case)

Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of the Sith at May 25, 2016 06:20 PM (wB8Tg)

911 Posted by: Methos, AoS commenter since 2006, now apparently non-voting democrat at May 25, 2016 06:15 PM (3Liv/)

Except it's not exactly a secret that Trump has sided with the left on the NC bathroom law. I don't recall Trump saying anything about Martian slavery.

Making reasonable extrapolations based on his own statements is quite different than making up wild-ass hypotheticals.

Posted by: chemjeff at May 25, 2016 06:20 PM (uAvJJ)

912 FFS, of all the SCOTUS opinions to harp on, why Kelo?

Posted by: Ignoramus at May 25, 2016 06:20 PM (r1fLd)

913 You're right. You ABSOLUTELY should vote for Hillary then.

Posted by: Cicero (@cicero) at May 25, 2016 06:15 PM (8ZskC)

Like Trump?

I'm out of here. It's been real.

Posted by: steveegg at May 25, 2016 06:21 PM (v6+HN)

914 Election 2016: Your country is bad and you should feel bad!

Posted by: LOL Kabong at May 25, 2016 06:21 PM (MCmqp)

915 >>>nope, like I said I don't care
>>>idc what you do
>>>it's just silly

It doesn't matter if you care. Logically the only way you can say not voting for Trump is voting for Hillary is if you postulate Trump is *owed* all such votes. He is not. Pretty simple logic 101.

Posted by: MikeTheMoose at May 25, 2016 06:21 PM (0q2P7)

916

Let the riots happen. Let the people see what the left really is, and what they are doing to the nation.

Posted by: ThunderB at May 25, 2016 06:21 PM (zOTsN)

917 As hard as it is for some people to acknowledge I actually had substantive reasons for withdrawing my support."

It's not hard to acknowledge. It's just that it's really, really difficult to say "madame President Clinton"...

Posted by: Anon a mouse... at May 25, 2016 06:21 PM (C9pBZ)

918 lmro,
i know eveyone is worried, heck i am also. but for once in a very long time we will see congress, media, senators act like their Jobs and America nd the Constitution Mean stuff!

they will not allow trump to gain anything popularity, power etc. they despise Him.

and that's what we need in mho right about now.

Posted by: willow at May 25, 2016 06:22 PM (mL2BD)

919 >>>Nonetheless, with Trump, there's a solid chance he'll do the smart, politically expedient thing. In this case, people don't want Bubba in the stall next to their daughter. (or in her stall) With Hillary, it's assured.

Posted by: pep at May 25, 2016 06:17 PM (LAe3v)>>>

Seems fairly assured either way.

Posted by: gm at May 25, 2016 06:22 PM (4ueYo)

920 891 Given that there clearly are Republican/Conservative voters who will not vote for Trump, or might vote reluctantly for Trump but not work on his behalf nor send money to the RNC - who makes up that deficit?
Posted by: grammie winger at May 25, 2016 06:16 PM (dFi94)

Pissed off Bernie voters who are not so much left-wing as they are anti-both parties?

Independents, including LIVs who don't have a great grasp of the issues but do have a vague sense that America's not what it used to be and don't particularly like the idea of men in the ladies room with their 6 year old daughter?

Men who are reminded of their first wife or MIL every single time they hear Hillary shriek and cackle?

Posted by: Donna&&&&V (a white) (whitely brandishing ampersand privilege ) at May 25, 2016 06:22 PM (P8951)

921 Can anyone here say that he *wouldn't* weaponize the IRS in the same way that Obama has? Hmm?

Posted by: chemjeff at May 25, 2016 05:47 PM (uAvJJ)

Dude.

Posted by: proving a negative at May 25, 2016 06:22 PM (N1Wpo)

922 I don't want to hear from another Paul Ryan about how my future SocSec
should get cut, when he's overseeing the massive theft that is our
national budget.

Congratulations, you're a typical Republican voter. You want to "cut spending" but you don't want your own bennies cut.

Posted by: chemjeff at May 25, 2016 06:22 PM (uAvJJ)

923 I'm still voting for Gary Johnson.

Team America.

Team Open Borders? Or is that Team All of the Americas?

Posted by: rickb223 at May 25, 2016 06:22 PM (EdhH3)

924 Given that there clearly are Republican/Conservative voters who will not vote for Trump, or might vote reluctantly for Trump but not work on his behalf nor send money to the RNC - who makes up that deficit?
Posted by: grammie winger at May 25, 2016 06:16 PM (dFi94)

Maybe people will be berated to donate too. I doubt that will work. The RNC is behind him now, so maybe they'll figure something out.

Posted by: chique d'afrique, former Republican at May 25, 2016 06:22 PM (nIGPZ)

925 FFS, of all the SCOTUS opinions to harp on, why Kelo?

Posted by: Ignoramus at May 25, 2016 06:20 PM (r1fLd)

It is a good example for self-identified conservatives to argue for diminished of State and local control and for total Federal control.

Posted by: Burnt Toast at May 25, 2016 06:23 PM (iYTlX)

926 If conservatives really got into voter fraud on a massive scale, I think you would suddenly see bipartisan efforts at common sense reforms like Voter ID in all 50 states.

Posted by: Jamers at May 25, 2016 05:59 PM (LZgax)

Nope. That actually happened, back in (umm early 80s / late 70s), and the result was a one-sided injunction against the GOP that *prevented them from calling out the other side for the same thing*, which allowed the left to go apeshit with voter fraud and the GOP had to hope the MFM (HAHAHAHAHA) would Get Right On That.

The Party Of Government doesn't suffer from that sort of limitation.

(DNC vs. RNC 1982 - that's the case)
Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of the Sith

I disagree, if we had the sort of organization that the Left has with this I think they would cry uncle. And if they didn't, oh well, at least it overcomes their fraud and evens the score.

What real voter fraud has the GOP ever done in the last 100 years?

I mean Democrats will churn out more total votes than residents with 100% voting pure Democrat in precincts and the media never even blinks.

Posted by: Jamers at May 25, 2016 06:23 PM (LZgax)

927 Good Lord. This circular firing squad is going to reach at least 1,000 comments.

Posted by: Jane D'oh at May 25, 2016 06:23 PM (1ZOkK)

928 Given that there clearly are Republican/Conservative voters who will not
vote for Trump, or might vote reluctantly for Trump but not work on his
behalf nor send money to the RNC - who makes up that deficit?

Posted by: grammie winger at May 25, 2016 06:16 PM (dFi94)

Well I have an unopened solicitation letter from the RNC on my table right now. Guess where it's going.

Posted by: chemjeff at May 25, 2016 06:23 PM (uAvJJ)

929 So you agree with the Kelo decision and would want Trump to nominate SCOTUS justices who also support it?"

The world is burning, the nation is spending itself into penury and free speech is under attack. Under the circumstances, "rolling back Kelo" strikes me as an odd policy to fixate on. Anyway, I don't see a wave of eminent domain cases where private property is turned over to another private owner just to increase the tax base, even if that's theoretically what Kelo permits.

I suspect that this may be because local politicians have a healthy respect for torches and pitchforks.

Posted by: Cicero (@cicero) at May 25, 2016 06:23 PM (8ZskC)

930 I always liked that scene in Dr. Zhivago where the Cossacks sabre the commies. The only problem was they didn't kill enough of them.

Posted by: Anonosaurus Wrecks at May 25, 2016 06:24 PM (Nwg0u)

931 "Congratulations, you're a typical Republican voter. You want to "cut spending" but you don't want your own bennies cut."

You missed my point. But you often do.

Posted by: Ignoramus at May 25, 2016 06:24 PM (r1fLd)

932 Clinton's hatred of the military is enough for me, as a USN vet. I turned down a posting to the WH back in '95 because by then, the word was out on the Clintons' contempt for all things military, along with their staff, who regularly abused military members and liaisons.

No way can she be the President. It *will* be the end of the Republic.

Posted by: Dave in San Diego at May 25, 2016 06:24 PM (INOor)

933 923 I'm still voting for Gary Johnson.

Team America.

Team Open Borders? Or is that Team All of the Americas?
Posted by: rickb223 at May 25, 2016 06:22 PM (EdhH3)

I'm pretty sure it's an allusion to Team America: World Police.

Posted by: Insomniac at May 25, 2016 06:24 PM (0mRoj)

934 I used to vote Libertarian (and probably will again this time).

I used to argue with them, when I voted Republican, that they should vote Republican too. But I never said that they owed it to their country, or that they were just virtue signaling or whatever. I would try to convince them, but not guilt or insult them into it.

So yeah, with the Trump supporters: No deal. You nominated this complete idiot. I'm not saying you are idiots. Just that he is. And I don't owe him or you anything.

Posted by: chris not rock at May 25, 2016 06:24 PM (85X6y)

935 Hallelujah! Nood!

Posted by: Aetius451AD at May 25, 2016 06:24 PM (3ZoRf)

936 *eject*

G'Night, Ev'-ry-Buddy!

*static*

Posted by: Slapweasel, (Cold1), (T) at May 25, 2016 06:24 PM (OQ9R7)

937 I won't vote for Trump.

I'm very near the point of deciding never again to vote for any Republican. For any office. Under any circumstances. Ever.

Is that ego and spite? Probably.

Posted by: Cloyd Freud, Unemployed at May 25, 2016 06:25 PM (ZEzaq)

938 FFS, of all the SCOTUS opinions to harp on, why Kelo?

Posted by: Ignoramus

I agree, it's so stupid.

I didn't agree with Kelo, but this is not some epidemic destroying America where local governments are buying up people's houses.

Posted by: Jamers at May 25, 2016 06:25 PM (LZgax)

939 You want people inclined not to vote or maybe vote Trump to instead vote Hillary so that they can give the GOP AND you the middle finger? Doesn't sound like a sound strategy.

I blew it. I should have used a sarc tag.

Posted by: Cicero (@cicero) at May 25, 2016 06:25 PM (8ZskC)

940 FFS, of all the SCOTUS opinions to harp on, why Kelo?

Maybe you could stop being a Trump shill for 5 minutes and think about the potential dangers of letting the government use eminent domain to seize property not for direct public use, but to hand over to private developers just for more tax money...

Posted by: chemjeff at May 25, 2016 06:25 PM (uAvJJ)

941 I'm still voting for Gary Johnson.

Team America.

Team Open Borders? Or is that Team All of the Americas?
Posted by: rickb223 at May 25, 2016 06:22 PM (EdhH3)

I'm pretty sure it's an allusion to Team America: World Police.

Because Gary Johnson is Team Open Borders.

Posted by: rickb223 at May 25, 2016 06:25 PM (EdhH3)

942 This circular firing squad is going to reach at least 1,000 comments.

Don't think for a second that I've forgotten the flames.

Posted by: pep at May 25, 2016 06:25 PM (LAe3v)

943 >>>927 Good Lord. This circular firing squad is going to reach at least 1,000 comments.

Posted by: Jane D'oh at May 25, 2016 06:23 PM (1ZOkK)>>>

I remove myself from the "team." I can shoot enemies in any direction now.

Posted by: gm at May 25, 2016 06:25 PM (4ueYo)

944 Trump agrees with Kelo 100%.

http://tinyurl.com/zab3sd2

I disagree, a government taking one private citizen's property and awarding it to another private party because of potential increased tax revenue is not in keeping with my sense of constitutional order.

Posted by: Baron Von Ottomatic at May 25, 2016 06:26 PM (ktzHq)

945
*turns the page*
Posted by: Bob Seger

Those were the days.

Posted by: Gerry Studds at May 25, 2016 06:26 PM (k4M/B)

946 What real voter fraud has the GOP ever done in the last 100 years? "

Go read the case. It was epically stupid from day one, and completely inexplicable for the GOP to agree to the terms.
It was the first time I realized that both "parties" were really "inside baseball" and extensions of each other.

Posted by: Anon a mouse... at May 25, 2016 06:26 PM (C9pBZ)

947 Ace, your post deserved a Flaming ORANGE skull!

Posted by: Malignantly aggrieved and economically useless at May 25, 2016 06:26 PM (3ZttN)

948 "20 . I oscillate day by day as to whether Trump or
Hillary would make the worst president but I can't in good conscience
support either.

Posted by: SparcVark at May 25, 2016 04:24 PM (nKOXj)
"

***************

You neither read, nor comprehended the post.

QED.

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at May 25, 2016 04:26 PM (p4UlV)
******************So, not possible to both read in full and comprehend, but not agree?
WTF?

Posted by: no one of consequence at May 25, 2016 06:27 PM (whMsz)

949 790 I'm still voting for Gary Johnson.

So are you on board with Johnson's position that forcing Christians at gunpoint to bake cakes for gay weddings is totes OK?

Yeah, he's a "libertarian" all right.

Posted by: proving a negative at May 25, 2016 06:27 PM (N1Wpo)

950 Johnson is worse than Trump.

Posted by: gm at May 25, 2016 06:27 PM (4ueYo)

951 off, logic sock

Posted by: OregonMuse at May 25, 2016 06:27 PM (N1Wpo)

952
I remove myself from the "team." I can shoot enemies in any direction now.
Posted by: gm

Death Blossom

Posted by: Bertram Cabot Jr. at May 25, 2016 06:28 PM (k4M/B)

953 If Hillary wins, kiss 2a goodbye.

Posted by: waelse1 at May 25, 2016 06:28 PM (/YYsQ)

954 953 If Hillary wins, kiss 2a goodbye.
Posted by: waelse1 at May 25, 2016 06:28 PM (/YYsQ)

---

Yeah,

Good luck with that.

Posted by: Texas at May 25, 2016 06:29 PM (rlfds)

955 I remove myself from the "team." I can shoot enemies in any direction now.

That is about where I am at, to be honest.

That has been the most disappointing thing about this whole primary election cycle. For years I was working under the illusion that there really were a lot of conservatives out there desperate for a non-squish non-RINO candidate. But what it turns out they wanted, was a thuggish nationalist con-man.

Posted by: chemjeff at May 25, 2016 06:29 PM (uAvJJ)

956 I won't vote for Trump.

I'm very near the point of deciding never again to vote for any Republican. For any office. Under any circumstances. Ever.

Is that ego and spite? Probably.

Posted by: Cloyd Freud, Unemployed at May 25, 2016 06:25 PM (ZEzaq)

Trump will be my last GOP vote. The irony of my last vote going to a New York liberal hasn't gone unnoticed. But you do what you gotta do to stop Hillary.

Posted by: Blano at May 25, 2016 06:30 PM (z43G5)

957 No offese, but I'm not a fan of most *professed* libertarians. The whole pot worship, extreme social liberalism and open borders thing doesn't sit well with me.

It's my first opportunity to vote so I'll probably just write in Cruz for the heck of it rather than leaving it blank.

Posted by: chique d'afrique, former Republican at May 25, 2016 06:30 PM (nIGPZ)

958 I'm just glad that personal insults rule was repealed. Things were getting too civil and collegial.

Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of the Sith at May 25, 2016 06:30 PM (wB8Tg)

959 So the Libertarians want a completely open border where everyone who wants to come over here, can.

But Trump supported Kelo.

Which do you think is worst for America and actually matters?

Kelo is code for "something I can throw out that doesn't sound personal and petty for why I hate Trump, even though that really is what it's all about"

Posted by: Jamers at May 25, 2016 06:31 PM (LZgax)

960 >>>Trump is a transactional guy, I honestly like my chances with him on judges.

Posted by: Jamers at May 25, 2016 06:02 PM (LZgax)>>>

Transactional guy is less likely to fight ("pay the transactional price") for a good judge than a normal GOP pol and look at the shit we've gotten from them.

Posted by: gm at May 25, 2016 06:31 PM (4ueYo)

961 940 Posted by: chemjeff at May 25, 2016 06:25 PM (uAvJJ)

Right ChemJeff.....let's just ignore the hyper regulatory fiat in the name of stopping AGW and focus in like a laser beam on a joke problem by way of comparison...

There is no relief or protection from evil coming from SCotUS....

the nation needs re-educated.

Posted by: sven10077 at May 25, 2016 06:31 PM (g8Hfr)

962 834 He's done equally despicable things"

Really? I missed the part where he oversaw the wanton murder of US officials overseas.

Do enlighten.
.....

*throws flag for false argument*

Trump was never in the position to oversee such a thing, so the answer is "We don't know what he'd do".

All we can go by is how is behavior and decisions outside of that context may come into play if he were ever in such a position or what opinions he's expressed at the time such things have occurred (not later on when he was running).

If we rewind to 2009/2010, he gave several interviews expressing full support for Obama's policies, both foreign and domestic. Prior to 2015, he was consistently an unabashed vocal and financial supporter of the Clintons. His current views on Iraq sound virtually identical to Obama in 2008 and has gone out of his way to trash all things Bush, in particular, Iraq and Mideast policy. His proposed solution to all things foreign is, "I get along with everyone. People like me. I know how to make deals"... which is virtually identical to Obama's "I will talk to everyone and the world will like and respect us again" in 2008.

Posted by: Damiano at May 25, 2016 06:31 PM (71OEY)

963 >Is it his leftist contention that Bush lied us into Iraq?

Bush lied us into Iraq. If we'd be told the real story of who funded the 911 attack we would have invaded Saudi Arabia but he hid the truth to protect his Saudi buddies. Bush played us for fools and it's high time we owned up to it.

Posted by: Bomber Command at May 25, 2016 06:31 PM (7us0J)

964 remove myself from the "team." I can shoot enemies in any direction now.
Posted by: gm

Me too. I deregistered from the GOP a few days after Cruz dropped out and all that was left was Trump.

So party loyalty doesn't apply to me.

Posted by: chique d'afrique, former Republican at May 25, 2016 06:32 PM (nIGPZ)

965 Great, now we'll get transactional rest rooms.

Posted by: Bertram Cabot Jr. at May 25, 2016 06:32 PM (k4M/B)

966 Obviously a person who donates heavily to the local NY/NJ political heavies then has them use state powers for his personal gain would never dream of abusing power in the White House.

Posted by: Baron Von Ottomatic at May 25, 2016 06:32 PM (ktzHq)

967 Entitlements must be cut.

Denninger repeatedly makes the point that if we start enforcing Existing pricing law on the Medical industry the rest of the #s will work out.

Posted by: DaveA at May 25, 2016 06:32 PM (DL2i+)

968 @902 "My biggest fear with Trump is as always, I think he loves obamacare. I don't trust him on this at all.

Every fucking R in office currently loves 404Care. They ALL said they would get rid of it. We GAVE them both houses to do it.

DID THEY??
Posted by: rickb223 at May 25, 2016 06:17 PM (EdhH3)"

As I pointed out to another "True Conservative" in a different forum, NONE of the Republican candidates came out for REAL repeal of ObamaCare. The uniform mantra was "Repeal and Replace", which meant you were going to have TrumpCare, CruzCare, RubioCare, etc.

But "Betsy McCaughey" (the former Lt Gov of NY who made it her mission to actually READ the ObamaCare bill and report in detail about it for the public) reacted to Trump's published plan, and said it had the free-market reforms that were needed.

Bottom line is that you couldn't trust ANY of them on ObamaCare, but Trump is a businessman who understands that the ObamaCare system doesn't work, and - as a non-ideological but especially savvy businessman and negotiator - may just have the skills to change it to something that works. With the political and economic impact of ObamaCare being enormous, he also has the MOTIVATION to tackle it.

Posted by: Optimizer at May 25, 2016 06:33 PM (jPHi7)

969 Transactional guy is less likely to fight ("pay the transactional price") for a good judge than a normal GOP pol and look at the shit we've gotten from them.
Posted by: gm

And Cruz/Bush gave us John Roberts.

And Reagan gave us Kennedy.

And Bush 1 gave us Souter.

I honestly like Trump's chances better than other Republican Presidents.

Posted by: Jamers at May 25, 2016 06:33 PM (LZgax)

970 Ace your starting to come around to Team "Trying to Win".

With that said the "buffoon" has done a pretty good job for himself in this election.

Sorts of off topic:

Most current Anti-Trump folks keeps saying both Hillary and Trump have complete name recognition and thus both are "insiders" and "known".

Well that is mistaken: Trump is NOT known in politics, yes as a big wig over the top property owner and entertainer, but not politics. Hillary on the other hand is known for one thing: The grim hatchet-gal wife of ex-President and serial molester, Baron Bubba of the Arkansas. She has spent most of her life in politics.

In an election of the outsider, Trump has a big advantage.

Also Trump may have skeletons still to be found, but so does Hillary. I suspect hers are much, much worse.

What we do about Hillary now: I mean leaving American fighting men stranded in Libya to die sounds like a Tom Clancy novel, then topping it off by lying to the parents of the dead heroes. Hard for Trump to top that on the Scale of Jerkness.

Posted by: William Eaton at May 25, 2016 06:33 PM (KhJh8)

971 I've actually been a Libertarian since I was 17, but, as usual, the Libertarian Party and its candidates aren't very Libertarian themselves.

In addition to having zero chance of winning, or doing anything but altering a very close election *in favor of* anti-Libertarian candidates.

I usually end up voting Republican as the "less total state power" position.

Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of the Sith at May 25, 2016 06:33 PM (wB8Tg)

972 >>>So the Libertarians want a completely open border where everyone who wants to come over here, can.

But Trump supported Kelo.

Posted by: Jamers at May 25, 2016 06:31 PM (LZgax)>>>

First of all, I know what Kelo is, and it actually does matter if you value private property rights. Second of all, I didn't trust the last center-left Yankee that we had on immigration, despite his pretend hard line. Why should I trust this one? It actually baffles me that people are putting Romney up as a supposed savior to Trump. They're essentially the same guy.

Posted by: gm at May 25, 2016 06:34 PM (4ueYo)

973 "Kelo is code for "something I can throw out that doesn't sound personal and petty for why I hate Trump, even though that really is what it's all about"

Spot on. Kelo got decided in 2005. Has there been a wave of developers throwing grandmas out on the street? Since 2005 how many millions of illegals have come in with the active assistance of our federal government flouting duly enacted laws?

Posted by: Ignoramus at May 25, 2016 06:35 PM (r1fLd)

974 >>>971 I've actually been a Libertarian since I was 17, but, as usual, the Libertarian Party and its candidates aren't very Libertarian themselves.

Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of the Sith at May 25, 2016 06:33 PM (wB8Tg)>>>

When I was younger, I actually voted Libertarian on occasion. Then I discovered that most of them are just libertine fascists, so I stopped.

Posted by: gm at May 25, 2016 06:35 PM (4ueYo)

975 No one said that the Kelo decision was THE most pressing issue in the universe. But if you can't even see what a troubling decision it was, and having a guy in there who will nominate judges who would uphold and even expand Kelo-type decisions, then I don't know what to say

Posted by: chemjeff at May 25, 2016 06:36 PM (uAvJJ)

976 963- Posted by: Bomber Command at May 25, 2016 06:31 PM (7us0J)

Making belief in hardcore lefty dogma a prereq for getting on the Trump train is not a great way to get me to vote for him. But the point of this thread seems to be about shaming NeverTrumpers.

Posted by: Cody's Feed Bag at May 25, 2016 06:36 PM (XiVKO)

977 *gazes remorsefully at my squandered youth*

Posted by: Mike Hammer, etc., etc. at May 25, 2016 04:50 PM (9mTYi)

Tell me about it. What I wouldn't give for a do-over.

Remember it could go worse on a replay.

Posted by: DaveA at May 25, 2016 06:36 PM (DL2i+)

978 Meh.

Trump like Obama is a clarifying experience.

Obama exposed the GOPe as hypocritical clowns.

Trump is exposing the frankly (but unfortunately, largish) silly component of conservatives.

A lot of chest-beating and feather-preening about their purity and virtue and wonderfully spotless conscience-

but, since life doesn't occur in an isolated chamber that view is fundamentally flawed and stupid.

It's anti-thought.

Not letting the perfect be the enemy of the good is a profoundly conservative value.

Not just some of the morons here (though since their are so many new nics, I assume a good bit of the #NeverTrump is Democrat pot-stirring), but-

people like Mark Levin have shown themselves to be fundamentally feckless and silly in their feather-preening.

What's particularly hilarious is all those people who voted for and urged voting for Romney, the frikkin' father of Obamacare,

now consider Trump a bridge too far.

Really?

Well, fine, enable Hillary. Whatevs.

At least, I get the pure enjoyment of mocking your whining about what Hillary and the Dims are doing to the country.

So...there you go. A silver lining to your silly unrealistic petulance.

Posted by: naturalfake at May 25, 2016 06:37 PM (oU3Bb)

979
Posted by: Ignoramus at May 25, 2016 06:35 PM (r1fLd)
Do you value property rights, or not?
If so, how can the Kelo decision not at least be troublesome to you?

Posted by: chemjeff at May 25, 2016 06:37 PM (uAvJJ)

980 @944 "Trump agrees with Kelo 100%.

http://tinyurl.com/zab3sd2

I disagree, a government taking one private citizen's property and awarding it to another private party because of potential increased tax revenue is not in keeping with my sense of constitutional order.
Posted by: Baron Von Ottomatic at May 25, 2016 06:26 PM (ktzHq)"

Yes, let's all be shocked that a real estate developer loves Kelo.

While we're at it, let's also pretend that (1) Eminent Domain is one of the top 20 issues in this Presidential election (2) that any other Republican would make a damn bit of difference on Kelo and (3) that it's any kind of excuse to crap on the only alternative to Obama II.

Posted by: Optimizer at May 25, 2016 06:38 PM (jPHi7)

981 Obviously a person who donates heavily to the local NY/NJ political heavies then has them use state powers for his personal gain would never dream of abusing power in the White House.

Posted by: Baron Von Ottomatic at May 25, 2016 06:32 PM (ktzHq)

I've been told that he will clean up corruption in government. Don't tell anyone, but I either shake my head at that or let out a sad chuckle.

Posted by: chique d'afrique, former Republican at May 25, 2016 06:38 PM (nIGPZ)

982 >>>Spot on. Kelo got decided in 2005. Has there been a wave of developers throwing grandmas out on the street? Since 2005 how many millions of illegals have come in with the active assistance of our federal government flouting duly enacted laws?
Posted by: Ignoramus at May 25, 2016 06:35 PM (r1fLd)>>>

Private property rights are a benchmark in the success of a country. There have been numerous studies. Look it up. The lack of private property rights in Latin countries drives economic failure and mass migration. You hoping to run our economy into the ground so that they won't want to come here anymore?

Posted by: gm at May 25, 2016 06:38 PM (4ueYo)

983 First of all, I know what Kelo is, and it actually does matter if you value private property rights. Second of all, I didn't trust the last center-left Yankee that we had on immigration, despite his pretend hard line. Why should I trust this one? It actually baffles me that people are putting Romney up as a supposed savior to Trump. They're essentially the same guy.
Posted by: gm at

The "why should I trust" angle is just so stupid.

You can trot that out for ANYONE.

We know what Hillary will do, so it's not a hard gamble for me to make on Trump.

Some people want to wash their hands of responsibility and pick "none of the above" as if that's an actual option.

Posted by: Jamers at May 25, 2016 06:39 PM (LZgax)

984 I think the point raised by people above is not Kelo per se but a fundamental respect for private property rights.

Posted by: chique d'afrique, former Republican at May 25, 2016 06:40 PM (nIGPZ)

985 I've been told that he will clean up corruption in government. Don't tell anyone, but I either shake my head at that or let out a sad chuckle.

Posted by: chique d'afrique

I detest the guy as much as anyone, and I'm under no illusions as to what he is. He's still probably better than the alternative.

Again, polio vs Bubonic Plague.

Posted by: pep at May 25, 2016 06:40 PM (LAe3v)

986 Again, polio vs Bubonic Plague.

Posted by: pep

Or, Justin Bieber vs Miley Cyrus

Posted by: pep at May 25, 2016 06:41 PM (LAe3v)

987 >>>While we're at it, let's also pretend that (1) Eminent Domain is one of the top 20 issues in this Presidential election (2) that any other Republican would make a damn bit of difference on Kelo and (3) that it's any kind of excuse to crap on the only alternative to Obama II.
Posted by: Optimizer at May 25, 2016 06:38 PM (jPHi7)>>>

I certainly didn't bring up Donald "Let's Put a Tranny Pedophile in Every Bathroom" Trump's support of Kelo, but pretending that it isn't a significant setback to private property rights and liberty isn't a bit silly.

Posted by: gm at May 25, 2016 06:41 PM (4ueYo)

988 Private property rights are a benchmark in the success of a country. There have been numerous studies. Look it up. The lack of private property rights in Latin countries drives economic failure and mass migration. You hoping to run our economy into the ground so that they won't want to come here anymore?
Posted by: gm

Such a meaningless issue.

Just about every Eminent Domain case has a developer in the background that wants to make money and got the local government to buy the land to build the highway/bridge/freeway etc so they would make money. Been that way for hundreds of years.

I oppose Kelo, but this is like an argument about base line budgeting or something else that's trivial

Posted by: Jamers at May 25, 2016 06:42 PM (LZgax)

989 >>>Not letting the perfect be the enemy of the good is a profoundly conservative value.
>>>Well, fine, enable Hillary. Whatevs.

Well if I thought Trump was even *good* I'd vote for him with a smile. Hell I'd settle for "ahhight". And I'd seriously consider "Doesn't suck too bad"

Posted by: MikeTheMoose at May 25, 2016 06:42 PM (0q2P7)

990 Some people want to wash their hands of responsibility and pick "none of the above" as if that's an actual option.
Posted by: Jamers at May 25, 2016 06:39 PM (LZgax)

It is for the voter.

Sure, one of the two will be president but we do have the right and ability to say no thanks to both.

I hope no one currently berating people for not supporting Trump ever said they would never vote for Jeb and/or Rubio. Because that would be, how shall we say, hypocritical.

Posted by: chique d'afrique, former Republican at May 25, 2016 06:42 PM (nIGPZ)

991 @976 "963- Posted by: Bomber Command at May 25, 2016 06:31 PM (7us0J)

Making belief in hardcore lefty dogma a prereq for getting on the Trump train is not a great way to get me to vote for him. But the point of this thread seems to be about shaming NeverTrumpers.

Posted by: Cody's Feed Bag at May 25, 2016 06:36 PM (XiVKO)"

Actually, you're the one making it a prerequisite that one must agree with Trump on his various Iraq War statements to vote for him (and against Obama II), and shaming the NeverTrumpers yourself with that attitude.

This election is NOT about re-litigating the Iraq War, for cryin' out loud!

Posted by: Optimizer at May 25, 2016 06:43 PM (jPHi7)

992 Note how the Trump shills here never want to argue the merits of the Kelo decision, they just try to change the subject to something else

Posted by: chemjeff at May 25, 2016 06:44 PM (uAvJJ)

993 >>>You can trot that out for ANYONE.

We know what Hillary will do, so it's not a hard gamble for me to make on Trump.

Some people want to wash their hands of responsibility and pick "none of the above" as if that's an actual option.

Posted by: Jamers at May 25, 2016 06:39 PM (LZgax)>>>

I asked why do you trust Trump, but not Romney on immigration. I didn't trust either. You trust Trump. Did you trust Trump's clone Romney too?

Posted by: gm at May 25, 2016 06:44 PM (4ueYo)

994 But the point of this thread seems to be about shaming NeverTrumpers.

At this point, it's about reaching 1,000.

Posted by: pep at May 25, 2016 06:44 PM (LAe3v)

995 I detest the guy as much as anyone, and I'm under no illusions as to what he is. He's still probably better than the alternative.

Again, polio vs Bubonic Plague.
Posted by: pep at May 25, 2016 06:40 PM (LAe3v)

And I respect your opinion.

I don't think this decision is as easy as people are making it out to be for those of us who had serious massive reservations about Trump. Naturally we won't all come to the same final decision, and it would be nice if people respected that.

Posted by: chique d'afrique, former Republican at May 25, 2016 06:44 PM (nIGPZ)

996 I asked why do you trust Trump, but not Romney on immigration. I didn't trust either. You trust Trump. Did you trust Trump's clone Romney too?

Posted by: gm

I supported Romney, and don't trust any of them. Completely consistent.

Posted by: pep at May 25, 2016 06:45 PM (LAe3v)

997 Posted by: MikeTheMoose at May 25, 2016 06:42 PM (0q2P7)

I'd suggest you read some Democrat sites.

You'll see the absolute good fairly quickly.

No one acts in a vacuum.

Posted by: naturalfake at May 25, 2016 06:45 PM (oU3Bb)

998 >>>
I oppose Kelo, but this is like an argument about base line budgeting or something else that's trivial

Posted by: Jamers at May 25, 2016 06:42 PM (LZgax)>>>

Kelo is a massive erosion of private property rights, and the empowerment of big government cronyism. Seems pretty non-trivial to me.

Posted by: gm at May 25, 2016 06:46 PM (4ueYo)

999 It is for the voter.

Sure, one of the two will be president but we do have the right and ability to say no thanks to both.

I hope no one currently berating people for not supporting Trump ever said they would never vote for Jeb and/or Rubio. Because that would be, how shall we say, hypocritical.
Posted by: chique d'afriqu

No, actually it's not an option.
If you want to brag to your friends about your sacred ideological purity by not voting, have at it.

But either Hillary or Trump are going to be President.

If a conservative doesn't vote, they are aiding Hillary.

Posted by: Jamers at May 25, 2016 06:46 PM (LZgax)

1000 I'm sorry, I haven't been following along.

Is Ace still asking those who don't like what he's saying about Trump to get out?

Posted by: Terrible, America, Terrible at May 25, 2016 06:46 PM (GyTPW)

1001 I've been amused by the "re-virgining" of the political elite on the Right; as though they'd been offered Jeb as the "would you have sex with me for a million dollars?" candidate and, agreeing to it, are now horrified to see the price has dropped to Trump. Their new-found Conservative virtue-signaling has been disingenuous at best and down right manipulative on the face of it.

I've been waiting for the dust to settle. I love Cruz but in my heart I know the times we live in-- because I live in them, among them and with them. Nothing beats, "Free Stuff." Not virtue, not principles, not ideology. Well, nothing good beats it. But maybe "good enough" will suffice, if things are as dire as we reasonable imagine.

Posted by: Joan of Argghh! at May 25, 2016 06:47 PM (BC6+0)

1002 I asked why do you trust Trump, but not Romney on immigration. I didn't trust either. You trust Trump. Did you trust Trump's clone Romney too?

Posted by: gm

Come on, now. You've been around her for awhile.

Posted by: pep at May 25, 2016 06:47 PM (LAe3v)

1003 Posted by: Jamers at May 25, 2016 06:23 PM (LZgax)

Texas and couple of other "known racist" are subject to all sorts of federal oversight related to voting. One example are that Texas is not permitted to independently determine its own voting districts. Alas, we can't get rid of Sheila Jackson Lee or Eddie Bernice Johnson and the Feds gerrymander the living hell out of their districts to keep it that way.

Go watch House of Cards most recent season. That was essentially Eddie Bernice Johnson willing "her" seat to her daughter. There is no regard for voters or communities whatsoever. Their seat is their personal property for life.

So yeah, within the past "100 years" Democrats on federal and state levels have done all sorts of things to combat Republican "voter fraud"... except they just call it racism and disenfranchisement.

Posted by: Damiano at May 25, 2016 06:47 PM (71OEY)

1004 Arghhhhh. New keyboard. Tomorrow.

Posted by: pep at May 25, 2016 06:47 PM (LAe3v)

1005 >>>I supported Romney, and don't trust any of them. Completely consistent.

Posted by: pep at May 25, 2016 06:45 PM (LAe3v)>>>

That's the only sensible approach. The only question that remains then, is whether or not to continue wasting our time voting. I'm not sure anymore, but I'm leaning toward "no."

Posted by: gm at May 25, 2016 06:48 PM (4ueYo)

1006 > Reality is what it is. It's not always pretty and it's never ideal.

Ha.

Just wait...

Posted by: just wait, you won't believe what happens next at May 25, 2016 06:48 PM (IQI2h)

1007 Kelo is a massive erosion of private property rights, and the empowerment of big government cronyism. Seems pretty non-trivial to me.
Posted by: gm

It's trivial, and it's not your real reason for not supporting Trump.

You really think Trump is going to weed out judges based on Kelo?

We know what sort of judges Hillary will appoint and how they side on the issue.

Posted by: Jamers at May 25, 2016 06:49 PM (LZgax)

1008 The choice is binary. Hillary or Trump.

If you choose not to vote, you've chosen Hillary, by default.

...in much the same way that many conservatives chose Obama ...when millions of conservatives stayed home in 2008 AND 2012... 'in order to teach the rest of you a lesson.'

Posted by: The Hot Gates. at May 25, 2016 06:50 PM (k3uSs)

1009 @970 "...Also Trump may have skeletons still to be found, but so does Hillary. I suspect hers are much, much worse.

What we do about Hillary now: I mean leaving American fighting men stranded in Libya to die sounds like a Tom Clancy novel, then topping it off by lying to the parents of the dead heroes. Hard for Trump to top that on the Scale of Jerkness.
Posted by: William Eaton at May 25, 2016 06:33 PM (KhJh

"

But ... but ... Trump said vulgar things to women he was arguing with (sometimes in defense of other women) ... and he made fun of a disabled guy who had attacked him (almost as if that guy was a normal person!) ... and said Carly Fiorina was a sourpuss! He MUST be stopped!!!

When are people going to notice that Hillary's scandals involve actual crimes, illegal abuse of her power, actual espionage, etc. To compare Hillary's "skeletons" to Trump's is actually pretty hilarious, if you calm the hell down.

Posted by: Optimizer at May 25, 2016 06:51 PM (jPHi7)

1010 It's trivial, and it's not your real reason for not supporting Trump.

1. It's not trivial

2. It is one of many reasons not to support Trump

3. Why can't you just argue against people's stated motives instead of trying to invent new ones out of whole cloth?

Posted by: chemjeff at May 25, 2016 06:51 PM (uAvJJ)

1011 >>>I'd suggest you read some Democrat sites.
>>>You'll see the absolute good fairly quickly.
>>>No one acts in a vacuum.

There are limits to the means I will use. The ends do not justify all means. I've transitioned to thinking past this election accepting that I will get DOOM either way.

Posted by: MikeTheMoose at May 25, 2016 06:51 PM (0q2P7)

1012 >>>It's trivial, and it's not your real reason for not supporting Trump.

Posted by: Jamers at May 25, 2016 06:49 PM (LZgax)>>>

I never claimed that it was *a* reason for not supporting Trump. I'm just saying that it's non-trivial.

Posted by: gm at May 25, 2016 06:51 PM (4ueYo)

1013 Lol some chick just called Levin and said he triggered her and Hillary must be elected, lol.

Posted by: Blano at May 25, 2016 06:53 PM (z43G5)

1014 Did you ever see a peanut take a day off?

Posted by: Mister Peanut at May 25, 2016 06:53 PM (k4M/B)

1015 Welcome to the dark side Ace. I was lucky enough to recognize my guy was't going to win in April so when Indiana happened I was prepared. It has taken others a couple of weeks, a few weeks but slowly we get there. That anyone would think that a populist winning is worse than a leftist is beyond my comprehension.

Posted by: JadedByPolitics at May 25, 2016 06:53 PM (jSlyo)

1016 Ummm I get the Trump dislike. But as Ace said "right now either Trump or Hillary is likely to get into office"

Would you rather have Trump with a media and congress primed to oppose him for any over reaches; or have Hillary with a media that will cover for her and congress rolling over because their cushy DC lives will not be affected by her fascist goals and they don't like to be in opposition to the media?

I toyed with a Quixote style vote for one of the alt parties right after Cruz dropped out but all the ones I checked out had at least one plank that was so off putting to me that even if I was sure my vote wouldn't affect Hillary vs Trump I could not pull the lever for one of the alt parties, which is its own pile of suckitude.

Posted by: Palerider at May 25, 2016 06:54 PM (dkExz)

1017 I won't vote for him because I refuse to reward his shit behavior. If he wants my vote he can try acting like a fucking man, admit he lied constantly and viciously about his opponents during the primary cycle and apologize to them, apologize to the disabled guy he mocked, apologize to POW's for calling them losers, apologize for using veterans for a sham fundraiser to duck a debate and also for lying about how much money he raised and where it went, stop pandering to neo-nazis and conspiracy crackpots and denounce them in no uncertain terms, and stop shitting on anybody who doesn't worship his corrupt, worthless, lying ass with sufficient zeal like he did to Gov. Martinez yesterday. If he could go for an hour without sounding like most ignorant fuck ever born that would also help. But he won't do any of those things, so fuck him.

Posted by: Orange Clown-Shaped Pile of Shit and Garbage at May 25, 2016 06:54 PM (ztrrs)

1018 Under Kelo, the law is, essentially, that you only retain "your property" by the grace of government. Government can take your property from you at any time for any damn reason that they want. Seems pretty important.

Posted by: gm at May 25, 2016 06:55 PM (4ueYo)

1019 Note how the Trump shills here never want to argue the merits of the Kelo decision"

Which party nominated the majority of "for" votes in the Kelo decision?

Hint: it doesn't start with "D"...

Posted by: Anon a mouse... at May 25, 2016 06:57 PM (C9pBZ)

1020 Why can't you just argue against people's stated motives instead of trying to invent new ones out of whole cloth?
Posted by: chemjeff

because they're bullshit reasons that anyone with common sense could see through.

If I said I'm not voting for Ted Cruz vs Hillary because he gave teddy bears out at the Border and at least Hillary didn't do that, I'd say that's an absolutely stupid reason to dismiss a candidate.

Same with Kelo. It's primarily a local issue that Trump is going to have zero effect on outside of judges. And Kelo supporting judges are what Hillary will nominate.

Posted by: Jamers at May 25, 2016 06:57 PM (LZgax)

1021 "The choice is binary. Hillary or Trump.

If you choose not to vote, you've chosen Hillary, by default.

...in much the same way that many conservatives chose Obama ...when
millions of conservatives stayed home in 2008 AND 2012... 'in order to
teach the rest of you a lesson.'

Posted by: The Hot Gates. at May 25, 2016 06:50 PM (k3uSs)"

The choice for Trump is binary: continue being a piece of shit, or stop being a piece of shit.

If he chooses to continue being a piece of shit (and he will, it's his nature), he's chosen Hillary by default.

Posted by: Orange Clown-Shaped Pile of Shit and Garbage at May 25, 2016 06:57 PM (ztrrs)

1022 "Hillary or her Supporter?"

I've got no horse in this race. You aren't going to convince me that the guy that absolutely and unequivocally supported the Clintons, maintained a personal friendship with them since the 1990s, and is still close friends and spends a lot of time and money with their friends is in any way better (or worse) than Hillary.

Yeah, Trump likes to shout and insult people on TV. He's been doing it since the 80s because it gets him publicity. Meanwhile, he's always making deals with them behind the scenes. Who has he made deals with? Conservatives? Never. Schumer, Hillary, etc. He even said himself, he's looking forward to working with Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid. He doesn't even know elected Republicans' names unless someone brings one up.

Posted by: Damiano at May 25, 2016 06:58 PM (71OEY)

1023
Under Kelo, the law is, essentially, that you only retain "your property" by the grace of government.

Sounds a lot like property taxes.

Posted by: Bertram Cabot Jr. at May 25, 2016 06:59 PM (k4M/B)

1024
Which party nominated the majority of "for" votes in the Kelo decision?

Hint: it doesn't start with "D"...

Posted by: Anon a mouse... at May 25, 2016 06:57 PM (C9pBZ)
Which party nominated all of the "against" votes?

Posted by: chemjeff at May 25, 2016 06:59 PM (uAvJJ)

1025 I'm so tired of these "The only reason not to vote for Trump is you're an idiot" posts and sad to see one coming from Ace.

Newsflash people: The fact that *you* cannot see a reason does not mean that one doesn't exist. Quit being every bit the arrogant elitist you like to label your chosen opponents. I'm really disappointed at this.

Posted by: Cortillaen at May 25, 2016 06:59 PM (DQa6v)

1026 "The choice is binary. Hillary or Trump.

If you choose not to vote, you've chosen Hillary, by default.
*****

Math. I don't think it works like you think it does.

Posted by: Damiano at May 25, 2016 07:00 PM (71OEY)

1027 If he chooses to continue being a piece of shit (and he will, it's his nature), he's chosen Hillary by default."

So in your world they're the same.

Interesting.

Posted by: Anon a mouse... at May 25, 2016 07:00 PM (C9pBZ)

1028 " Under Kelo, the law is, essentially, that you only retain "your property" by the grace of government. Government can take your property from you at any time for any damn reason that they want. Seems pretty important."

No shit.

You do realize that's what the Constitution says, but requires fair compensation, and that the Kelo decision is a SCOTUS precedent that reads "public purpose" broadly, and that they key part of the opinion was written by a Republican appointee.

Kelo got hyped by the self-appointed True Conservatives as a wedge issue against Trump during the primaries because he tried two Kelo-like things that didn't happen in the end. Even then it was silly and off the mark.

Posted by: Ignoramus at May 25, 2016 07:01 PM (r1fLd)

1029 Note how the Trump shills here never want to argue the merits of the Kelo decision"

Which party nominated the majority of "for" votes in the Kelo decision?

Hint: it doesn't start with "D"...
Posted by: Anon a mouse

This a thread about NeverTrump, and like a broken record, Kelo is trotted out for the reasons why.

Most conservatives don't support Kelo, but I've never voted for a President I agree with on everything.

I also thought Cruz was wrong about birthright citizenship, but he still had my vote over Hillary

perfect being the enemy of the good

Posted by: Jamers at May 25, 2016 07:01 PM (LZgax)

1030 Ace faces reality; redbanzai hardest hit.

Posted by: andycanuck at May 25, 2016 07:01 PM (PLnZs)

1031 With Hillary Republicans will at least block her actions. She does not have the invulnerability of being the first black president Obama apparently has.
She is a criminal, and it will not be hard to impeach her, and if need be, her vice president will also be impeachable.
With Trump, we get tens of millions of amnestied illegal aliens and tarnished brand to go along with it.
But I will not support Trump, period, and I will convince those around me who might support him, to not.
I would rather Hillary not be president. She does not claim to represent me.
I detest the idea of Trump as President as he tries to argue he represents me.

Posted by: astonerii at May 25, 2016 07:01 PM (o/DjS)

1032 To quote - loosely - Dennis Prager for the umpteenth time; "Never Trump is emotionally based, so, what's more important; feeling good or doing good? And this is coming from someone who wanted every other candidate above Trump."

It's true, voting Trump is a vote to stop the hardcore left.

Posted by: thathalfrican - be water my friend at May 25, 2016 07:01 PM (R5HRU)

1033 Oh, wow, Ace.

So you'd vote for Hillary before you'd vote for Marco, but now you're lecturing us that we're not really conservative if we don't try our hardest to stop Hillary?

I just want you to know that I mean this, buddy.

Shove a jumbo swizzle stick up your ass, plant the stick in the ground, and start spinning.

Posted by: Demosthenes at May 25, 2016 07:01 PM (9V0rz)

1034 because they're bullshit reasons that anyone with common sense could see through.

Just because you think private property rights are trivial doesn't mean everyone else does too.

Posted by: chemjeff at May 25, 2016 07:01 PM (uAvJJ)

1035 A bit late to the party and only skimmed over a few comments, but did anyone point out that just a couple of months ago that ace said he would vote for Hillary over Trump?

And now it's only because Trump is within striking distance in the polls that ace is coming around, but that's a conditional support that goes away if his poll numbers tank?

And in the original post and comments we get nothing but insulting and condescending language and strawmen? And we're constantly beating up the left about the pseudo-intellectualism?

This whole argument presented here is based upon emotion and half-assed guessing and wishcasting.

Posted by: Burn the Witch at May 25, 2016 07:02 PM (Wckf4)

1036 #NevreHillary

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at May 25, 2016 07:03 PM (SEXy3)

1037 Which party nominated all of the "against" votes?
Posted by: chemjeff"

GOP. Which also nominated a majority of the ayes.

Which makes it tough for one to believe that the GOP is completely "anti" on the topic.

Posted by: Anon a mouse... at May 25, 2016 07:03 PM (C9pBZ)

1038 That anyone would think that a populist winning is worse than a leftist is beyond my comprehension.

Posted by: JadedByPolitics at May 25, 2016 06:53 PM (jSlyo)

Odd. How about a leftist populist? Maybe thats not describing him correctly. What are some of Trumps conservative principles, or Constitutional principles...actually, what are ANY of his foundational principles? Can anyone name a few? Just curious.

Posted by: Mimzey at May 25, 2016 07:03 PM (aRUb8)

1039 And we're constantly beating up the left about the pseudo-intellectualism?

Well there is plenty of pseudo-intellectualism to go around, it seems

Posted by: chemjeff at May 25, 2016 07:04 PM (uAvJJ)

1040 So I can understand this. It's all about the win? Isn't that why you rejected Trump in the first place? In talking with friends offline around beers on the back patio, the realization that Trump is the establishment character that the folks on K street gave us. With the want for a number of hardline Tea Party characters that were supposed to form a back bench for later moves, we see instead the establishment played a "Trump" card on us and basically gave us Trump. Why else do you think they didn't fight hard to deny him the opportunities to debates or even run on the ticket? The attitude of "You want a buffoon as a presidential candidate? Well congratu-fucking-lotions, you get your wish! Enjoy it!"
I mean here is a man who has had pedophile fans and convicted pedos on his staff. One of his delegates in CA was anot avowed white nationalist. There have been members of his fan base that have beaten non-white members of the rally attendees. His staff has beaten women and then claimed it never happened. The list goes on and on with all the damned stereotypes of a GOP or even a conservative that I have fought hard against or said doesn't belong in my party. Now you are saying throw it all a way and live up to that Leftist stereotype because "GO TEAM JERSEY!!!!"
What the hell man?!?!?!?
Sorry, but maybe it is time for a civil war in the GOP and maybe it is time for its death. Maybe it's time for the vicious attack on the "conservatives" like Rush and Sean and Drudge that have lead attacks on even some of the more moderate elements of the conservative movement and those "conservative" media folks brought on this idea that you have to pick a hill to die on and constantly charged like the Light Brigade or the ANZACS at Gallipoi to thier death, but promised that we just didn't elect someone with enough Elan to take that hill.

Please tell me which hill have we managed to retake since Ike was elected?

Sorry, but this isn't just the fault of the established political makers, this is our own making by not curbing the excess of the splinters on our platforms. Our social wing hasn't come up with a good reason besides bible thumping to explain why gay marriage is wrong. Instead of offering up policy debates, they stuck with freedom of religion (while at times making the point that the only Religon is Fundamental Jesus). These more extreme anti-science portions of this wing haven't helped our stance on transsexuals and AGW science debates. Really creationism being a valid theory of how the earth came into being. With some folks actually making in quoted material statements that have said things like the Flintstones is valid. All contrary to actually discovered evidence.
The business wing of the GOP. Let's just say it out front Cronyism and Crony capitalism. Again instead of calling out these events the "conservative" media chose to defend it whole making good team points about the DNC. That isn't helping. Then there has been some lackluster defense of labor over business, but most of the time we have seen folks on the conservancy side argue that business is awesome and labor socks. Well, nothing more deep than that. While the left is stuck with arguing Keynesian is superior to Engels. We argue all over the place from Chicago to Austrian to Adam Smith, without admitting the faults of all and that some of our policies might be harmful to the blue collar labor folks we want to claim to represent. Oh and honestly, we just need to admit that labor unions have been lost to the GOP and conservative opinion since Haymarket on the 1800s. Once we jump that hurdle well, I think we can make a good idea that yes some of our ideas are harmful to blue collar and the unskilled, but the nature of Darwin (ohhh science) says that there will always be a weak person left behind.
Which segues into our environmental stance, hey yea Crony capitalism again. Yeah some environmental rules are bad and over the top. Yet, explain to me please why we can't work to impose some rules and let the markets decide? Again a read on Adam Smith and even Hayek or Friedman admits that some regulation is good. Where that balance is the fight. So instead we get the all or nothing argument here.
Social philosophy stuff. Yes it's philosophy and not science because you can't mathematical figure out humans. The soviets tried for years and lost. Why did we let the left change it from philosophy to science? Oh right we didn't notice it. This one segues as well to our religious wing. Things like sex ed, homes for homeless on the taxpayer dole, the great War on poverty, etc. We haven't moved the argument beyond its soul crushing and said it needs to be replaced. Sorry, but giving tax dollars to the Church of Holier than Thou is just as wrong as giving to the state for the state bureaucracy to spend.

I could go on and on with the lack of depth on our thinking that our turn to hardline binary choices have lead to Trump being our nominee. That are inability to show not only how decrepit the Prog-Left thinking is, but that thier ideas have been defeated last century; all is hurting us. So what to do now? Hold our nose and vote for a man who sounds like Il Duce or a Franco, and hope that we can revert sooner than later? Hope for the white night to bring back the principles we want? Yet, what are those principles? Or just say to hell with it and let the party and the nation destruct and hope to pick up the pieces afterwards? Sorry, but I think I will go door 3 Monty and hope that the best choice because other than the full Donkey in one door and the almost a Donkey in a other.

Posted by: Charles at May 25, 2016 07:04 PM (pNems)

1041 or, alternately, #NeverHillary

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at May 25, 2016 07:04 PM (SEXy3)

1042 Posted by: Texas at May 25, 2016 06:29 PM (rlfds)

The courts currently hold that gun control laws can't be so restrictive (Chicago, D.C.) that they effectively null your 2a rights. A 7-2 liberal SCOTUS will reverse that.

Posted by: waelse1 at May 25, 2016 07:04 PM (/YYsQ)

1043 Every evidence is that Trump has used all the power he's held to aggrandize himself and grind the face of anyone who disagrees with him.

He's a tyrant who's never held legal power, only colluded with it to target his enemies (who are anyone not currently sucking his dick).

Fuck him. Every evidence is that he would turn the R party entirely into a progressive power-mad circle jerk and there would be no party left for actual conservatives.

Ben Shapiro's point is that (best case) Hillary will head the country off the cliff at 100 MPH, whereas Trump would head off the cliff at 70 MPH, but Trump would rip out the reverse gear. With Hillary at least there's a chance of course correction in the future. Not so with Trump.

And frankly most of the complaints about Hillary Ace lists are things Trump would do as well. You think he wouldn't fuck up Benghazi and then lie about it, attack the press, lie to the families, cover it up? Abso-fucking-lutely he would.

#NeverTrump, not even once.

Posted by: DangerDad at May 25, 2016 07:04 PM (L/9Im)

1044 Under Kelo, the law is, essentially, that you only retain "your property" by the grace of government.

Sounds a lot like property taxes.
Posted by: Bertram Cabot Jr.

Yea, and EPA rules and every other government agency that Hillary will unleash on private property owners that's supposed to be so sacred.

If you want a legit criticism of Trump on Kelo, my guess is he got the Cliff Notes and thought Kelo=Eminent Domain and said he supports Eminent Domain.

I bet 99% of registered Republicans couldn't accurately tell you about the Kelo decision.

Posted by: Jamers at May 25, 2016 07:04 PM (LZgax)

1045 Which makes it tough for one to believe that the GOP is completely "anti" on the topic.

Posted by: Anon a mouse... at May 25, 2016 07:03 PM (C9pBZ)
They're not, I never claimed they were. The big business/CoC wing of the Republicans love the Kelo decision, for obvious reasons. I didn't think that was a popular set of people around here.

Posted by: chemjeff at May 25, 2016 07:05 PM (uAvJJ)

1046

I'd say the choice to not back either one is very easy. I would assume that I don't have to make the
case against Hillary with this crowd.
But in my opinion, here is the case against Trump.

The problem with Trump is that I've seen this show before in
California with Arnold SchwartzenKennedy, another insecure narcissist who
seemed to talk tough, but who would always cave. He was swept into office and tried to bluster
his way through the legislature. He
failed repeatedly. By the time of his
second term, he was working with the Dems on a Daily basis, and destroying the
Republican party from within. He wanted
to make deals and get credit from the media for doing something. His ego was such that he sold out any
pretense of principle. We are now a
one-party state, well on the way to the Cyber Plantation. Hollywood and Silicon Valley are the
overlords, who are supported by their civil service overseers and the private
economy is being more and more regulated and restricted. Though we live in the most conservative
county in the state, my wife and I will seek to leave the state once our
youngest graduates from his (private) high school. If the recall had not occurred, if Arnold was
not governor, the disaster that was Grey Davis could have led to a real
Republican governor. That won't happen
again until things crash hard, at best.
The state GOP exists to be the Dems Washington Generals, destined to
always lose. I see this as the future
for the country if Trump were to get elected.

Trump is such a beta male that he needs to get positive
strokes. He's getting it now from the
MSM, because they wanted him to run against Hillary. The looked for who they saw as the most
beatable and liberal rep running and puffed him up. That will change, just like it did for Dole,
McCain and Romney. I think that Trump
will freak out and melt down when the wind changes. He surrounds himself with yes-men and changes
his opinion to whatever he thinks is the winning side, usually from an Upper
West Side NY POV.

He has no positions other than proving that he is the
smartest person in the room, being rich and winning. When he switches sides on issues, I really
think that he believes that he has always had the same POV. He has mastered the art of personal Double
Think. Beyond anything else, he believes
that he can make the best deals possible.
Pelosi and Schumer would roll him, just like the CA Dems did to
Arnold. They'll let him talk big about
his victories, but take 90% of the issues under discussion. Trump's stated plan already calls for mass
Amnesty. When they're done with him,
there will be a full pathway to citizenship.
And it will happen on issue after issue. Why do you think that Boehner
and the rest of the Establishment are signing up; they know that he's their
guy.

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Posted by: calbadger at May 25, 2016 07:05 PM (rKRC9)

1047 Ace,

It's not virtue signalling. It's not power envy. It's none of the reasons you listed.

Trumps is simply awful and "yeah, but Hillary..." Just isn't enough for me. I believe exactly NONE of the noises Trump makes because he changes his mind every five minutes.

The only chance the courts had for sanity was Cruz.

If the country's gonna burn, let it be at the hands of the common, greedy, venal, crass, ultra-wealthy liberal New Yorker with the (D) next to her name.

Trump isn't going to build any wall. Right now he's on he phone reassuring Paul Ryan that everything's gonna be beautiful.

If he wins, the Dems win both ways: they get the most liberal republican imaginable AND they have the perfect lightning rod to make sure the country votes Democrat for the next 25 years.

THAT is why I won't vote for Trump.

Posted by: Sam in VA at May 25, 2016 07:06 PM (9stgl)

1048 Most conservatives don't support Kelo, but I've never voted for a President I agree with on everything.

I also thought Cruz was wrong about birthright citizenship, but he still had my vote over Hillary "

This.

Heck, there I was less than thrilled about parts of Reagan's first campaign (yeah, I'm that old), but I wasn't going to vote for Anderson...
And no, I'm not claiming Trump = Reagan, so there.

I just have a really tough time saying "Madame President Clinton".

If that doesn't frighten you, then OK...

Posted by: Anon a mouse... at May 25, 2016 07:06 PM (C9pBZ)

1049 >>>I could go on and on

but could you though?

Posted by: ace at May 25, 2016 07:07 PM (dciA+)

1050 Which party nominated all of the "against" votes?
Posted by: chemjeff"

It wasn't a single Democrat nominate Justice that voted against Kelo, so explain to me how Hillary winning would help with Kelo or anything else you claim is important?

There were however Clinton 1 appointed judges that supported Kelo.

Posted by: Jamers at May 25, 2016 07:07 PM (LZgax)

1051 I actually have my put the decision on which candidate to support on a long term hold.

A. Despite the polls, Hillary may still win easily.

B. It's along time till November. Lots can happen.

We still don't know what Trump really stands for. Or Hillary for that matter.

C. Gary Johnson's postions on several things like immigration and freedom of religion have put him out of the running permanently .

But the truth is as Brad Thor points out, Trump could try to become a Caudillo, or at least permanently damage the classical liberal or constitutionalist position. Both Hillary and Trump have strong fascist streaks. Neither is a good choice.

But now is not the time to shut up. Trump problems should not be swept under the rug just because he is the presumptive nominee of the Stupid Party, which I soon may not be a member of.

Posted by: Unsk at May 25, 2016 07:07 PM (ItEIu)

1052 Ah yes. We celebrate capitalism because it creatively overcomes whatever obstacle the government puts in front of it. It gets smarter, more durable, and ultimately flows to where the power is. It is the water Trump swims in, and he masters it and takes advantage of the laws that we tacitly vote for when we elect idiots. Hate him for all kinds of worthy reasons, but not because he's smart enough to take advantage of weaknesses we've assented to with our prior votes.

Posted by: Joan of Argghh! at May 25, 2016 07:07 PM (BC6+0)

1053

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[Not sure what happened above. Here's the next part.]

Morton Blackwell, the legendary conservative leader has as
one of his Laws of the Public Policy Process "Don't fully trust anyone
until he has stuck with a good cause which he saw was losing." The problem with Trump is that he always
positions himself on the winning side.
He praised Obama and Hillary when he thought they were winning. He has never fought hard for a loss. If he sees a conservative issue going down,
then he will immediately go lib. He's
doing that already, like talking about raising the minimum wage. He cannot be trusted because, as he says,
everything is negotiable. It doesn't
matter what you win, as long as you win.
For those of us that are firm #NeverTrump, we didn't become Reps because
we like team Elephant's red jerseys better than the blue ones. We don't believe certain things because of
our party. We have developed over
decades of consideration a set of conservative principles that until recently,
had better been expressed, albeit imperfectly, in the GOP. If the party doesn't stand on those values
any more than it has lost its usefulness.

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Posted by: calbadger at May 25, 2016 07:08 PM (rKRC9)

1054 This whole argument presented here is based upon emotion and half-assed guessing and wishcasting.

Posted by: Burn the Witch at May 25, 2016 07:02 PM (Wckf4)

Which arguments are those?? Trumps history, associations, statements and ideological allies are who he IS. People stuck in the world of wishful thinking and deny this are no different than the Obamatrons who would similarly turn a blind eye to HIS past. What is the difference? No guessing about it. He is looking you in the eye and TELLING you what a conman he is.

Posted by: Mimzey at May 25, 2016 07:08 PM (aRUb8)

1055 >>> The only question that remains then, is whether or not to continue wasting our time voting. I'm not sure anymore, but I'm leaning toward "no."
Posted by: gm at May 25, 2016 06:48 PM

I'm firmly in the "no" camp. None of the choices are better or worse than the alternative and all them have one thing in common: their self interest above all else and their willingness to do whatever it takes, including ignoring the Constitution, breaking every law, and walking over dead bodies to get what they feel entitled to.

I vote for myself. I am President, Senate, House, and Supreme Court of myself. That make me 100% responsible for myself and my well being. I welcome anyone who wants to join me and otherwise leave everyone else to fight over which of their unindicted felons they trust more to take care of them and make everything fair or great or whatever again for them.

Posted by: Damiano at May 25, 2016 07:08 PM (71OEY)

1056 So in your world they're the same.

Interesting.
Posted by: Anon a mouse... at May 25, 2016 07:00 PM (C9pBZ)

Trumpkins keep telling me that not voting is the same as actively supporting Hitlery, so why not?

Instead of trying to convince me to vote for a piece of shit like Baron Clownstick von Chodefingers, why don't you encourage the Orange Messiah to stop being a piece of shit so I can vote for him?

Posted by: Orange Clown-Shaped Pile of Shit and Garbage at May 25, 2016 07:09 PM (ztrrs)

1057 Nope. Sorry. Every time I see an article urging me to vote for a diseased piece of crap to keep the other, slightly more diseased piece of crap from winning, or ITS MY FAULT that the rest of the country voted for these people and we're in this position, the less I want to vote for him, or support any of his enablers.

I held my nose for decades, the smell is just too much this time. I don't think I've actually been given a desirable choice for presidential candidate since I was eligible to vote in the early 90's. Well, I'm done.

Either you give me a positive reason I SHOULD vote for your candidate, or I just won't. I'm totally done with the "lesser of two evils" when the difference between the two is so small it's difficult to see.

Posted by: Brian at May 25, 2016 07:09 PM (QEaBw)

1058 I love Ben Shapiro but I think he's wrong. I actually think Trump wouldn't leave people to die, Clinton did. Big difference.

Plus nobody with a brain in their head thinks Trump represents conservatism.

Posted by: thathalfrican - be water my friend at May 25, 2016 07:09 PM (R5HRU)

1059 Far less than 1% of federal employees are political appointees. Trump can't fire them, can't do anything to them.

Fuck that!

Posted by: Zombie Ronald Reagan at May 25, 2016 07:10 PM (EyFCU)

1060 Sorry Everyone.

Add to this that his foreign policy
views are delusional. He'd sacrifice Israel to a column of nuclear fire
in a vain attempt to make a deal. He'd shred the post war alliances
that have provide world structure. Putin and China would walk over him
worse than the do over Obama. Eastern Europe and SE Asia would all be
at risk. As much as it gripes me to admit it, since I despise her so
much, Hillary would be better, or less worse, on this account. His
trade policies would create a new Great Depression. One may still be
coming because neither of these two have the knowledge to prevent it.
If Trump is president, he'd Hooverize the GOP all over again. He'd keep
us out of the White House for decades.At this point, it's like
Europe after the Fall of France. Barring a miracle, we have already
lost the 2016 Presidential election. Face it. Trump is worse than, and
more liberal than, Dole McCain and Romney. The Vichy Republicans are
collaborating. Churchill, the one who went into the Wilderness on
principle, has taken over from Chamberlain. We will still have many
defeats and the Invasion is a ways off. We will have to rely on
Commando raids to strike back in any way. But we cannot surrender to
the Orange horde. We must keep a force in being to have the ability to
grow and respond. If we back Trump, then all these resources will be
tainted by him.I say this all sadly as someone who has dedicated
decades for the Conservative Movement. I've recruited thousands of
volunteers, walked precincts in the blizzards of Northern Wisconsin to
the 115-degree heat of CA Central Valley. When I worked in politics, I
was always in one of the smallest offices in the Capitol to keep the
faith. Eventually, I faced a time where I had to either compromise of
leave politics. I'm now in a different field. I have no illusions
about Hillary. The Court is gone. The Bill of rights will be
shredded. Christians will be under attack and all sexual relations, not
just those on campus, will be under the scrutiny of the DOJ. The
economy will collapse and dictators will have the best time since the
70s. Abortion will be a civil right and free speech on the internet
will be restricted. The problem is that Conservatives will have more
freedom to fight these efforts than they would with a President Trump,
who I believe will push the same things.Lastly, there is his
temperament. I object to Obama's policies, but I also oppose him
because of his casual disregard and outright opposition to the
Constitution. Trump promises to do the same. If he is elected, we will
have an Imperial Presidency, probably forevermore. And yes, I know
that the Progressives have unleashed this wind, but a supposedly
Conservative whirlwind will not restore the Constitution. I want no
more Obamas and cannot support a Republican one. After the 2012
election, we on this site talked about Sulla. Well Trump is Sulla. He
claims that he will restore the Republic by Imperial means and save the
Constitution. As pleasant as this dream is, it is also wrong. Sulla
failed. Furthermore, he destroyed the last opposition to the Imperial
rule. He created the blueprint for Caesarism. He killed the Republic.
After him, it was lost forever. Trump will do the same.

Posted by: calbadger at May 25, 2016 07:10 PM (rKRC9)

1061 ***"It's not virtue signalling. It's not power envy. It's none of the reasons you listed."***

Don't you realize it's easier to make an argument if you lock anyone who disagrees with you into a set of choices you concoct and then impute whatever motives you like into it?

Posted by: Burn the Witch at May 25, 2016 07:10 PM (Wckf4)

1062 Fuckin YEAH MAN

Posted by: Phone of kari at May 25, 2016 07:11 PM (ImzfF)

1063 calbadger, that's a lot of words.

Paragraphs would help immensely.

Posted by: thathalfrican - be water my friend at May 25, 2016 07:11 PM (R5HRU)

1064 calbadger, please report to the barrel.

Posted by: waelse1 at May 25, 2016 07:12 PM (/YYsQ)

1065 Completely agree.

Vote for the buffoon, it's important!

Posted by: jocon307 at May 25, 2016 07:12 PM (4WPdG)

1066 It wasn't a single Democrat nominate Justice that
voted against Kelo, so explain to me how Hillary winning would help with
Kelo or anything else you claim is important?

There were however Clinton 1 appointed judges that supported Kelo.

Posted by: Jamers at May 25, 2016 07:07 PM (LZgax)
You speak as if I am supporting Hillary.. I am not. I don't support either one. I"m talking in the context of ideas and principles. I don't know Hillary's position on Kelo but it wouldn't surprise me if she's in favor. I don't support that. I don't support Trump's position on Kelo either. And it isn't just about the Kelo decision per se, it is about the broader issue of property rights and stricter adherence to what the Constitution actually says. Anyone supporting Kelo is telling me that they don't really give a shit about the 5th amendment and they don't really give a shit about property rights either, and so I don't want that person in charge of the EPA or anything else where private property rights are at risk.

Posted by: chemjeff at May 25, 2016 07:13 PM (uAvJJ)

1067 Keep copying and pasting from Word, looks great

Posted by: Phone of kari at May 25, 2016 07:13 PM (ImzfF)

1068 Ever notice how the NeverTrumpers always go back to the most juvenile insults like his skin tone or his hand size?

That's why I'm convinced bullshit like Kelo has absolutely nothing to do with NeverTrump.

It's personal, they lost, and so this is their way of taking the ball home.

I still say Trump makes it up 100-1 in new voters than whatever George Will-types he loses.

Posted by: Jamers at May 25, 2016 07:13 PM (LZgax)

1069 @ 827

How dare you insult jellyfish in that manner?!

Posted by: Demosthenes at May 25, 2016 07:13 PM (9V0rz)

1070 I'm not saying ace is a bit wishy-washy lately, but I did hear he's in talks to do a glowing DVD commentary track for The Force Awakens.

Posted by: broseidon king of the brocean at May 25, 2016 07:13 PM (kumBu)

1071 Eminent domain, in the case of two private parties, is an issue of the connected and powerful using the state to achieve what they could not through the free market.

Trump donates thousands to local, state, and federal pols. Vera Coking is a nobody. She tells him no. He calls in his favors and has the state try to take her property.

How is it that "It's a tax" is infuriating in the case of Obamacare but eminent domain on the behalf of a private party under the guise of increased tax revenue is no problem?

After the state lost their case on his behalf, Trump was even classy enough to gloat that he offered her more than the property ultimately fetched once the family sold to another buyer.

Posted by: Baron Von Ottomatic at May 25, 2016 07:13 PM (ktzHq)

1072 Instead of trying to convince me to vote for a piece of shit like Baron Clownstick von Chodefingers"

Er, wrong person there. Vote for whomever (or not) you wish.

I guess I'm just old enough to realize there is some (limited) value in voting against someone/party. Both Clinton and Sanders worry me more than Trump.
Not by much, but there it is.

Posted by: Anon a mouse... at May 25, 2016 07:14 PM (C9pBZ)

1073 Posted by: Mimzey at May 25, 2016 07:08 PM (aRUb

I don't disagree. The BEST think anyone can only say - honestly - is that they don't really know how he'll govern.

Not really a rock solid case there.

Anyone who says they know is wishcasting. If we look at all available evidence, the guy's a NE Liberal Democrat...at best.

But people are supposed to vote for him because YAY TEAM? He's Not Hillary?

This is flimsy rationalizing. And a little disturbing.

Posted by: Burn the Witch at May 25, 2016 07:14 PM (Wckf4)

1074 Vera Coking is a nobody. She tells him no. He calls in his favors and has the state try to take her property."

Yet she "won". Guess he wasn't powerful enough.

Posted by: Anon a mouse... at May 25, 2016 07:16 PM (C9pBZ)

1075 1068 Ever notice how the NeverTrumpers always go back to the most juvenile insults like his skin tone or his hand size?

That's why I'm convinced bullshit like Kelo has absolutely nothing to do with NeverTrump.

It's personal, they lost, and so this is their way of taking the ball home.

I still say Trump makes it up 100-1 in new voters than whatever George Will-types he loses.
Posted by: Jamers at May 25, 2016 07:13 PM (LZgax)
---------------

So you reject people for relying on personal insults.

Yet you are supporting Trump.

This seems... contradictory.

Posted by: person at May 25, 2016 07:17 PM (mFkVC)

1076 I'll vote for Trump just for the entertainment factor. There is something to be said for your enemies having absolutely no idea which way the US president is going to decide. It scares the living shit out of them. Remember the scare that popped up from Reagan's mic check..."we begin bombing in..." The Russian never called a Reagan bluff, because they never solved his decision making process...because is was all over the board at times...(example Beirut)....then in the same breath...Falklands. No one ever figured out what he was going to do and it caused out adversaries to second guess their own choices.

Is Trump in the same category as Reagan? Of course not. But, nobody knows what he's going to do next. That might be bad domestically, but for foreign policy...it's perfect after the jackass sitting in the White House right now.

Posted by: OrsonSnow at May 25, 2016 07:18 PM (e0H9w)

1077 This is flimsy rationalizing. And a little disturbing."

Oh, it's really flimsy. And very disturbing that this is the state of things.

I'll be the first to admit that I did NOT see this choice coming last fall... and I still can't believe it.

Posted by: Anon a mouse... at May 25, 2016 07:19 PM (C9pBZ)

1078 #NeverTrump, not even once.

Posted by: DangerDad at May 25, 2016 07:04 PM (L/9Im)

Thats correct. ALL dictators, despots, and country destroyer have shown that they can get power because of the peoples right to vote. They all let them vote.. ONCE.One time...thats all you get. After that they don't need you any more.

Posted by: Mimzey at May 25, 2016 07:19 PM (aRUb8)

1079 How much did Vera Coking's "win" cost her relative to Trump? Time, money, anguish? A Pyrrhic victory is still a win, though.

Posted by: Baron Von Ottomatic at May 25, 2016 07:19 PM (ktzHq)

1080 Hey, calbadger shit-for-brains, don't cut & paste directly from Word; you have to render it into Plain Text (through Notepad is easiest) and get rid of any special characters like true quotations marks and em-dashes to comment.

Posted by: andycanuck at May 25, 2016 07:20 PM (PLnZs)

1081 This is flimsy rationalizing. And a little disturbing.

Posted by: Burn the Witch at May 25, 2016 07:14 PM (Wckf4)

I agree.

Posted by: Mimzey at May 25, 2016 07:22 PM (aRUb8)

1082 Good to see all the #NeverTrumpers going psycho here since they've lost an ally. (Especially the Hot Air dregs.) See you later or, I prefer, never again. Ciao.

Posted by: andycanuck at May 25, 2016 07:22 PM (PLnZs)

1083 ABOUT FUCKING TIME.

Posted by: Teapartydoc at May 25, 2016 07:22 PM (hWHqx)

1084 The American people have a taste for fascism now. They want it. 75% of the primary electorate want Clinton, Sanders, or Trump.

I will not be voting to save the republic or the people from their own banal appetites. And I really feel sorry for Trump supporters. Because they believe him.

Posted by: Sam in Va at May 25, 2016 07:22 PM (9stgl)

1085 So you reject people for relying on personal insults.

Yet you are supporting Trump.

This seems... contradictory.
Posted by: person

I'm rejecting their rationale for making the case that conservatives should sit out the election over policy differences with Trump.

It's personal. Their guy lost, so let's take it out on the guy that beat him.

Trump is juvenile, and so are most of the reasons conservatives are making for why President Hillary would be a better outcome.

Posted by: Jamers at May 25, 2016 07:22 PM (LZgax)

1086 Someone went psycho?

Posted by: Burn the Witch at May 25, 2016 07:23 PM (Wckf4)

1087 Posted by: calbadger at May 25, 2016 07:08 PM (rKRC9)

*****

Please stop copy and pasting from Word or a website. It fucks this blog up.

Posted by: ManWithNoParty at May 25, 2016 07:24 PM (KcI5m)

1088 "I have NO use for anyone who would sit by and let that FAB get elected, NO MATTER WHAT THEIR RATIONAL."

^^^This

Some much moral preening by the self-righteous but they voted for Romney, McCain, Dole of which none were conservatives.

Butcheress of Benghazi left 30-40 people to be murdered. Left them in the cold dark night when help was available. Her husband took 26 trips with child sex trafficker Epstein. And that's just the lastest of a 30 year saga of the Clintons.

Stuff it phony moral self-righteous prigs.

Posted by: Stupid Shit at May 25, 2016 07:24 PM (e0yiL)

1089 So you reject people for relying on personal insults.
Yet you are supporting Trump.
This seems... contradictory.
Posted by: person at May 25, 2016 07:17 PM (mFkVC)

Nope. I don't care about Trump's insults and I imagine Jamers doesn't either. It's nevertrumpers who are the hypocrites and we're just noting that. The Michelle Fields fiasco is the best example of this. Years of decrying the left for its shame brigade tactics and then trying to end a political campaign based on a nudge and using the War on Women meme to do it. With, please note, no results whatsoever. Very republican.

Posted by: Phone of kari at May 25, 2016 07:25 PM (ImzfF)

1090 Posted by: Jamers at May 25, 2016 07:22 PM (LZgax)

Yeah, it's much easier to win an argument in your head by changing the other guy's argument.

Posted by: Burn the Witch at May 25, 2016 07:25 PM (Wckf4)

1091 I'm rejecting their rationale for making the case that conservatives
should sit out the election over policy differences with Trump.

Wait, so you think that most of the NeverTrumpers really are just fine with big government liberalism, they just don't like the big-government liberalism that comes in the package of Donald Trump?

Are you nuts?

Posted by: chemjeff at May 25, 2016 07:27 PM (uAvJJ)

1092 ***"Stuff it phony moral self-righteous prigs.

Posted by: Stupid Shit at May 25, 2016 07:24 PM (e0yiL) "***

What an apt nick. You do realize that people can decide to change their mind and quit doing the same thing over and over when they aren't getting results right?

No, of course you don't.

Posted by: Burn the Witch at May 25, 2016 07:27 PM (Wckf4)

1093 Well with that obnoxious, strawman addled, incoherent rant, I bid this place a fond farewell. After a decade I didn't think you were capable of being quite this obtuse, but obviously I underestimated you.

Posted by: Paul at May 25, 2016 07:28 PM (mAzwF)

1094 @ 1085

Trump IS juvenile.

Most of us have not said Hillary would be a better outcome. Most of us are taking no position on the matter.

I am not going to spend my time trying to determine which would be preferable, being burned at the stake or being savaged by a particularly large panther. One of them may theoretically be better than the other, but they are both so very bad that I won't spend my time trying to determine which is worse.

Posted by: Demosthenes at May 25, 2016 07:28 PM (9V0rz)

1095 Doing let the door hit your face on the way out.

Posted by: Phone of kari at May 25, 2016 07:30 PM (ImzfF)

1096 Awesome post. This is the Ace I know and love to read. This is the reason why I've been coming back to this blog for the last decade.

Rock on, Ace.

Posted by: Dogstar at May 25, 2016 07:30 PM (fnJNJ)

1097 Or, you know, don't*

Posted by: Phone of kari at May 25, 2016 07:32 PM (ImzfF)

1098 This election is about survival, not line 5 of clause h in section 4, article VII of the federal register.

Also, electing a wartime president.

Posted by: Phone of kari at May 25, 2016 07:33 PM (ImzfF)

1099
But people are supposed to vote for him because YAY TEAM? He's Not Hillary?

This is flimsy rationalizing. And a little disturbing.
Posted by: Burn the Witch

Not really.

One choice is everything I oppose (Hillary)

The other choice is saying many things (but not all) that I agree with emphatically (Trump)

The argument against the guy that I agree with is that he's a sleeper agent secretly committed to Leftism. I guess you could make that same case against everyone on the ballot and never vote at all.

So I think my choice is the far more rational one.

Posted by: Jamers at May 25, 2016 07:34 PM (LZgax)

1100 Don't blame me, I voted for Kodos.

Posted by: Baron Von Ottomatic at May 25, 2016 07:34 PM (ktzHq)

1101 It was only a few months ago that Ace was so embarrassed by Trump that he swore he'd use the blog to promote Hillary. I'm sure glad we're past that little pique. Now that Ace has "evolved" on the issue of Trump, we can finally put most of the nastiness behind us and unite in stopping the witch.

Posted by: Rusty Nail at May 25, 2016 07:35 PM (L/l1B)

1102 "Ever notice how the NeverTrumpers always go back to the most juvenile insults like his skin tone or his hand size?
"

Yes, we should all strive to be more like the Orange Messiah, who would never mock somebody's disability or say a female opponent was too ugly to vote for.

"That's why I'm convinced bullshit like Kelo has absolutely nothing to do with NeverTrump."

No, nothing to do with it at all. It's not possible that anybody could oppose him because he's a progressive totalitarian, an ignoramus, and a corrupt liar and also treat him the same way he treats others.

"I still say Trump makes it up 100-1 in new voters than whatever George Will-types he loses.
Posted by: Jamers at May 25, 2016 07:13 PM (LZgax)"

So now we've gone from "OMG IF YOU DON'T WORSHIP TRUMP YOU'RE RESPONSIBLE FOR HITLERY WINNING" to "whatevs, we don't need your vote anyway"?

Posted by: Orange Clown-Shaped Pile of Shit and Garbage at May 25, 2016 07:35 PM (ztrrs)

1103 being savaged by a particularly large panther"

Well, I wouldn't go that far in describing Huma.

Wait, what?

Posted by: Anon a mouse... at May 25, 2016 07:35 PM (C9pBZ)

1104 "Vote for my guy or America is dooooooomed" is getting really old. It was already old in 2008.

Posted by: broseidon king of the brocean at May 25, 2016 07:35 PM (kumBu)

1105 1. Your reasons for your actions aren't legitimate.

2. If you don't share my opinion, sit down and shut up.

3. Your motives are selfish.

I guess there are more intellectual similarities between people on the Right and Left than I thought.

Posted by: Burn the Witch at May 25, 2016 07:36 PM (Wckf4)

1106 "Don't blame me, I voted for Kodos.

Posted by: Baron Von Ottomatic at May 25, 2016 07:34 PM (ktzHq) "

Heretic!

Kang 2016.

Posted by: broseidon king of the brocean at May 25, 2016 07:36 PM (kumBu)

1107 Posted by: Sam in Va at May 25, 2016 07:22 PM (9stgl)

I'm not a Trump supporter, but I know for a FACT Hilary will fuck us.

Trump? He's a wildcard, one which I'm willing to gamble with.

Posted by: thathalfrican - be water my friend at May 25, 2016 07:37 PM (R5HRU)

1108 It was only a few months ago that Ace was so embarrassed by Trump that he swore he'd use the blog to promote Hillary."

Yeah, that's still out there...

Posted by: Anon a mouse... at May 25, 2016 07:37 PM (C9pBZ)

1109 es, we should all strive to be more like the Orange Messiah, who would never mock somebody's disability or say a female opponent was too ugly to vote for.

Posted by: Orange Clown-Shaped Pile of Shit and Garbage

And then your nic makes you lose all credibility that you can't vote for Trump because his juvenile insults are just too much for decent people to handle.

Posted by: Jamers at May 25, 2016 07:37 PM (LZgax)

1110 Sorry All. I originally tried to post from the comments, but got a 500 Internal Server Error. I had kept a copy in Office 365, so after the browser crash, I used that. I won't make that mistake again.

Posted by: calbadger at May 25, 2016 07:37 PM (rKRC9)

1111 "I guess there are more intellectual similarities between people on the Right and Left than I thought.

Posted by: Burn the Witch at May 25, 2016 07:36 PM (Wckf4) "

The political continuum isn't a straight line, it's a Mobius strip.

Posted by: broseidon king of the brocean at May 25, 2016 07:38 PM (kumBu)

1112 The argument against the guy that I agree with is that he's a sleeper agent secretly committed to Leftism.

Ow! it burns!

Posted by: Burning Strawman at May 25, 2016 07:38 PM (uAvJJ)

1113 What's everybody putting on their hurt butts?

Good LAWD

Posted by: Phone of kari at May 25, 2016 07:38 PM (ImzfF)

1114 1. Your reasons for your actions aren't legitimate.

2. If you don't share my opinion, sit down and shut up.

3. Your motives are selfish.

I guess there are more intellectual similarities between people on the Right and Left than I thought.
Posted by: Burn the Witch

Then why did you come here to make the point about why your NeverTrump?

Did you just want pats on the back for your brave stance from other posters?

Sorry to disappoint

Posted by: Jamers at May 25, 2016 07:39 PM (LZgax)

1115 "Yeah, that's still out there...

Posted by: Anon a mouse... at May 25, 2016 07:37 PM (C9pBZ) "

There's still 4 1/2 hours or so until midnight, plenty of time for ace to change his mind again.

Posted by: broseidon king of the brocean at May 25, 2016 07:39 PM (kumBu)

1116 I'm not a Trump supporter, but I know for a FACT Hilary will fuck us.

Trump? He's a wildcard, one which I'm willing to gamble with.
Posted by: thathalfrican - be water my friend at May 25, 2016 07:37 PM (R5HRU)

*****

Yep. This right here.

Posted by: ManWithNoParty at May 25, 2016 07:39 PM (KcI5m)

1117
Posted by: Rusty Nail at May 25, 2016 07:35 PM (L/l1B)
Oh I'd be happy if Ace just took the time from here on out to post anti-Hillary blog posts.
I would be disappointed though if he went full-on Trump boosterism.

Posted by: Burning Strawman at May 25, 2016 07:40 PM (uAvJJ)

1118 There's still 4 1/2 hours or so until midnight, plenty of time for ace to change his mind again.

And don't forget Central, Mountain, and Pacific time!

Posted by: Anon a mouse... at May 25, 2016 07:40 PM (C9pBZ)

1119 "What's everybody putting on their hurt butts?

Good LAWD

Posted by: Phone of kari at May 25, 2016 07:38 PM (ImzfF) "

The future first husband/beard of America would recommend that they put some ice on that.

Posted by: broseidon king of the brocean at May 25, 2016 07:40 PM (kumBu)

1120 I would be disappointed though if he went full-on Trump boosterism."

Si.

Posted by: Anon a mouse... at May 25, 2016 07:41 PM (C9pBZ)

1121 ***"Not really."***

Yes really.

***"The other choice is saying many things (but not all) that I agree with emphatically (Trump)"***

Yeah, he's saying things. What has he done as a politician? Nothing. You can't POSSIBLY know. If you're convinced by things he's said, what's the statute of limitations on contrary things he's also said, and why? This is the only chance you have to demonstrate a rational argument so far.

***"The argument against the guy that I agree with is that he's a sleeper agent secretly committed to Leftism."***

No, that's your mischaracterization of the argument. The argument is that he's a run-of-the-mill NE liberal. There's more evidence to support that than anything else. If you find that acceptable, fine.

***"I guess you could make that same case against everyone on the ballot and never vote at all."***

No, you can't. There are politicians with established records from which you can draw an actual reasonable conclusion.

***"So I think my choice is the far more rational one."***

You're guessing against a significant amount of contrary evidence. You're actually being quite irrational.

Posted by: Burn the Witch at May 25, 2016 07:43 PM (Wckf4)

1122 And then your nic makes you lose all credibility that you can't vote
for Trump because his juvenile insults are just too much for decent
people to handle.
Posted by: Jamers at May 25, 2016 07:37 PM (LZgax)

There is a causal relationship between his vile indecency and my choice of a nic. The former caused the latter.

Posted by: Orange Clown-Shaped Pile of Shit and Garbage at May 25, 2016 07:43 PM (ztrrs)

1123 "That has been the most disappointing thing about
this whole primary election cycle. For years I was working under the
illusion that there really were a lot of conservatives out there
desperate for a non-squish non-RINO candidate. But what it turns out
they wanted, was a thuggish nationalist con-man.

Posted by: chemjeff at May 25, 2016 06:29 PM (uAvJJ)"

Oh, for fuck sake.

You think most of us wanted this situation?

Posted by: Obnoxious A-Hole at May 25, 2016 07:43 PM (QHgTq)

1124 "And don't forget Central, Mountain, and Pacific time!

Posted by: Anon a mouse... at May 25, 2016 07:40 PM (C9pBZ) "

A New Yorker acknowledging that other time zones exist and/or matter? Now that's just kooky talk.

Posted by: broseidon king of the brocean at May 25, 2016 07:43 PM (kumBu)

1125 And then your nic makes you lose all credibility that you can't vote for Trump because his juvenile insults are just too much for decent people to handle.
Posted by: Jamers at May 25, 2016 07:37 PM (LZgax)

LOL roasted.

Also, please note, he's not saying HE is offended by your nick. He's saying you're a hypocrite for getting in high dudgeon over Trump calling people stupid and then referring to someone as a pile of shit AND garbage.

Posted by: Phone of kari at May 25, 2016 07:43 PM (ImzfF)

1126 Trump? He's a wildcard, one which I'm willing to gamble with.

Actually, he's not that "wild" of a wildcard. We do have a pretty good idea what he will do. He will pander to the mob, telling them what he thinks they want to hear, and when he is pressed or forced to take a position on an issue, he will default to the standard leftist one. Because that is just the easier one to take, that requires no thought or discernment, and it tends also to be the more popular one.

So Obama's DOJ will sue NC over tranny bathrooms out of ideological zeal, but Trump's DOJ might also sue NC over tranny bathrooms because "they're not being nice".

I don't think he is a "sleeper Leftist" or some such nonsense. I don't think he has a coherent ideology at all.

Posted by: Burning Strawman at May 25, 2016 07:45 PM (uAvJJ)

1127 Posted by: ManWithNoParty at May 25, 2016 07:39 PM (KcI5m)

Also, after that fucking bullshit morally beyond wrong move Trump pulled with Cruz's father Iwasthisclose to not supporting him. In fact he was in my bottom tier of candidates, but Scalias death moved the needle enough to make me "support him".

No way am I going to let that bitch put forth possibly 4 nominees for Supreme Court Justice. Fuck her and the left.

That's why I'm voting Trump, not because I "believe" in him - in fact I don't think anyone really knows what he believes in much less what he's going to do - but because the left, which is socialist at best in the Dem party these days have got to be stopped.

Posted by: thathalfrican - be water my friend at May 25, 2016 07:45 PM (R5HRU)

1128
You think most of us wanted this situation?

Posted by: Obnoxious A-Hole at May 25, 2016 07:43 PM (QHgTq)
Well I think a good 30-40% of "us" wanted it, yeah

Posted by: Burning Strawman at May 25, 2016 07:45 PM (uAvJJ)

1129 "Personally, I'm out. I will never defend [Trump] nor vote for him. I'll actually vote for Hillary Clinton, if I vote at all."

http://acecomments.mu.nu/?post=362323

Two months, two days.

Well, I guess he was within his 90-day return period.

Posted by: Demosthenes at May 25, 2016 07:46 PM (9V0rz)

1130 Yeah, he's saying things. What has he done as a politician? Nothing. You can't POSSIBLY know.
Posted by: Burn the Witch

_______

So I guess the only people you're comfortable supporting are ESTABLISHED politicians that have been in office for a while.

Perhaps a Mitch McConnell type?

I like that Trump hasn't been rotting away in office, the Founders never intended for us to be ruled by professional career politicians.

Posted by: Jamers at May 25, 2016 07:46 PM (LZgax)

1131 ***"Then why did you come here to make the point about why your NeverTrump?

Did you just want pats on the back for your brave stance from other posters?

Sorry to disappoint

Posted by: Jamers at May 25, 2016 07:39 PM (LZgax)"***

I didn't say I was Nevertrump, now did I? You have a habit of mischaracterizing, imputing, and beating the shit out of strawmen.

Personally, I don't plan on voting for Trump at the moment. I'm still open to the idea at a future date. I didn't plan on voting for a whole bunch of other Rs either, so Trumpy ain't special.

I came here to post my opinion and discuss it with people who are capable of rational discussion. Since that doesn't seem to interest you, maybe you should ask yourself those same questions.

Posted by: Burn the Witch at May 25, 2016 07:48 PM (Wckf4)

1132 So I guess the only people you're comfortable supporting are ESTABLISHED politicians that have been in office for a while.

Perhaps a Mitch McConnell type?

How about a Ted Cruz type? Or even a Rick Perry or Scott Walker type?

Yes I'd like someone with a demonstrated record of actually practicing what they preach. Anyone can say anything at all in an attempt to fool the mob, the proof is in the pudding, so to speak. Don't you?

Posted by: Burning Strawman at May 25, 2016 07:48 PM (uAvJJ)

1133 "Oh, for fuck sake.

You think most of us wanted this situation?

Posted by: Obnoxious A-Hole at May 25, 2016 07:43 PM (QHgTq) "

No, just like the demonic cultists in B-movies don't really want the monster they summon to maim and devour them. But it's a reasonable expectation when you're dealing with dark forces of that nature, isn't it?

People wanted Trump as the 'burn it down' candidate to stick it to the GOPe. Don't act shocked when Godzilla crushes your house, as well.

Posted by: broseidon king of the brocean at May 25, 2016 07:48 PM (kumBu)

1134 sock stay off this time!

Posted by: chemjeff at May 25, 2016 07:49 PM (uAvJJ)

1135 Also, please note, he's not saying HE is offended by your nick. He's saying you're a hypocrite for getting in high dudgeon over Trump calling people stupid and then referring to someone as a pile of shit AND garbage.
Posted by: Phone of kari at May 25, 2016 07:43 PM (ImzfF)
--------------

Oh, wow, Orange, are you running for President? That makes the choice of who to vote for a lot easier.

Posted by: person at May 25, 2016 07:49 PM (mFkVC)

1136 Posted by: Demosthenes at May 25, 2016 07:46 PM (9V0rz)

Thanks for that link. It's nice to review that when ace takes this particular tone.

Posted by: Burn the Witch at May 25, 2016 07:50 PM (Wckf4)

1137 Also, please note, he's not saying HE is offended by
your nick. He's saying you're a hypocrite for getting in high dudgeon
over Trump calling people stupid and then referring to someone as a pile
of shit AND garbage.
Posted by: Phone of kari at May 25, 2016 07:43 PM (ImzfF)

I started using this nic when Baron Clownstick von Chodefingers started in with "Lyin Ted" and attacked Cruz's wife. So no, it's not hypocrisy, just treating him as he treats others.

Second, I think Presidential candidates should be held to a slightly higher standard than anonymous blog commenters.

Posted by: Orange Clown-Shaped Pile of Shit and Garbage at May 25, 2016 07:51 PM (ztrrs)

1138 "Two months, two days.

Well, I guess he was within his 90-day return period.

Posted by: Demosthenes at May 25, 2016 07:46 PM (9V0rz) "

Let's be fair to ace. He only changed his position once in two months. Trump has changed positions on multiple issues several times in the same two month period.

Posted by: broseidon king of the brocean at May 25, 2016 07:51 PM (kumBu)

1139 sock stay off this time!
Posted by: chemjeff at May 25, 2016 07:49 PM (uAvJJ)

****

Pssttt....everyone knew who was wearing the sock.

Posted by: ManWithNoParty at May 25, 2016 07:51 PM (KcI5m)

1140 "Also, please note, he's not saying HE is offended by your nick. He's saying you're a hypocrite for getting in high dudgeon over Trump calling people stupid and then referring to someone as a pile of shit AND garbage.

Posted by: Phone of kari at May 25, 2016 07:43 PM (ImzfF) "

I agree, it's clearly out of line. Pile of shit? Perfectly fine. Pile of garbage? A-ok. Pile of shit *and* garbage? That's just uncalled for.

Posted by: broseidon king of the brocean at May 25, 2016 07:52 PM (kumBu)

1141 But I agree with kari, Orange Pile's behavior is not Presidential at all. So I'm making a major announcement:

I, broseidon king of the brocean (totally my legal name, by the way), will not be casting my vote in the 2016 US Presidential election for Orange Clown-Shaped Pile of Shit and Garbage. Sorry, man. I'll consider you if you run again in 2020, though.

Posted by: broseidon king of the brocean at May 25, 2016 07:53 PM (kumBu)

1142
"Let me ask you, what can Trump do in the remaining 5 months to get you to at least hold your nose and pull the lever"

Well...

He COULD release his full tax returns, instead of insulting our intelligence with a photo of a stack of blank typing paper..

He COULD give us a source for his fanciful claim he's worth ten billion dollars that DOESN'T originate from Donald Trump...

He COULD apologize to those veterans he had run off the sidewalk in front of Trump Tower...

He COULD apologize toted Cruz for vilifying his wife and father...

He COULD tell us exactly how much he owes Goldman Sachs and the banks... And how much control they have over his operations...

But I don't expect him to do any of those things.

Posted by: Richard McEnroe at May 25, 2016 07:54 PM (IcsLQ)

1143
I didn't say I was Nevertrump, now did I?

Posted by: Burn the Witch

So you've never said you're not voting Trump?

Is that really such a big decision that you can't commit to yet?

Posted by: Jamers at May 25, 2016 07:54 PM (LZgax)

1144 Great post, ace.

Many times over the years I've been on the receiving end of the argument "Not voting for the R is the same as voting for the D". I have always rejected that reasoning. The only way I vote for the D is by actually voting for the D. Not voting or voting third party is not the same thing.

I didn't have a problem in 2008 because I enthusiastically supported Sarah Palin. But in 2012 I couldn't stand Romney and thought he was a terrible candidate. At one point during the primaries I swore loudly that I would not vote for him if he became the nominee. In the end I swallowed my pride and voted for him.

But I resolved that that would be the last time I held my nose. This year, if Jeb, Rubio, or Kasich had become the nominee, I would not vote for them in the general.

My first two choices, Walker and Paul, dropped out early. So I became a Trump supporter pretty early on. This is a rare opportunity for me to make the same argument in favor of the candidate I support. But I still don't believe it is valid. Everybody has to vote their conscience, and refusing to vote at all is still a choice.

What I find annoying is that most of the #NeverTrumpers would still be using that argument on me if one of the GOPe candidates had won. And high profile "conservatives" like Bill Kristol are proving that they support the political establishment above all else.

What I will not countenance is, if Trump loses, the #NeverTrumpers say "I told you so" and attempt to blame those who supported him rather than those who refused to. My response will not be civil.

Posted by: rickl at May 25, 2016 07:54 PM (sdi6R)

1145 ***"So I guess the only people you're comfortable supporting are ESTABLISHED politicians that have been in office for a while.

Perhaps a Mitch McConnell type?

Posted by: Jamers at May 25, 2016 07:46 PM (LZgax) "***

Then you'd guess wrong. Stick to your own arguments, and I'll stick to mine.

I like to make informed choices. Experienced politicians offer the most reliable information. I'd prefer an outsider, but in Trump's case, we have a whole host of contradictory statements which favor the idea that he's a NE Liberal, if he's anything at all.

Posted by: Burn the Witch at May 25, 2016 07:54 PM (Wckf4)

1146 Also, please note, he's not saying HE is offended by your nick. He's
saying you're a hypocrite for getting in high dudgeon over Trump calling
people stupid and then referring to someone as a pile of shit AND
garbage.

Posted by: Phone of kari at May 25, 2016 07:43 PM (ImzfF)

Oh please. This is just a logical fallacy. It is called Argument by Selective Observation, to try to make the weakest argument seem as if it is the only or best argument that your opponent has.

So when I say "Trump is terrible on guns, he is terrible on private property rights, he is terrible on abortion, he is terrible on tranny bathrooms, he is terrible on trade, he is terrible on taxes and spending, oh and he's a slimeball too", you all focus on the "slimeball" insult and project that to make it seem like it's the only argument that the anti-Trumpers have. It is just a trick, and most people here are clever enough to see through it though. Yes he is a slimeball, but even if he were Mitt Romney in his personal life, his combined record on everything else is beyond horrible.

Posted by: chemjeff at May 25, 2016 07:55 PM (uAvJJ)

1147 Oh, wow, Orange, are you running for President? That makes the choice of who to vote for a lot easier.
Posted by: person at May 25, 2016 07:49 PM (mFkVC)

Well I am far more intelligent, qualified, and honest then Hitlery and Clownstick put together, but that isn't saying much.

Posted by: Orange Clown-Shaped Pile of Shit and Garbage at May 25, 2016 07:56 PM (ztrrs)

1148 What I will not countenance is, if Trump loses, the #NeverTrumpers say
"I told you so" and attempt to blame those who supported him rather than
those who refused to. My response will not be civil.

Why not?

By your own admission, you've said that even not voting at all is a legitimate and valid choice. So if Trump fails to convince enough people to vote for him, why shouldn't the blame fall on him and his supporters who didn't work hard enough to win the election?

Posted by: chemjeff at May 25, 2016 07:58 PM (uAvJJ)

1149 I like to make informed choices. Experienced politicians offer the most reliable information. I'd prefer an outsider, but in Trump's case, we have a whole host of contradictory statements which favor the idea that he's a NE Liberal, if he's anything at all.
Posted by: Burn the Witch

You prefer an outsider, but an outsider can never be trusted.

Good luck on your quest.

Let me know when you can bravely take a stance on how you'll vote instead of hedging your bets and trying to take both sides.

Posted by: Jamers at May 25, 2016 07:59 PM (LZgax)

1150 ***"So you've never said you're not voting Trump?

Is that really such a big decision that you can't commit to yet?

Posted by: Jamers at May 25, 2016 07:54 PM (LZgax) "***

To answer your first question: correct. Was my previous statement unclear?

To answer your second question: my decision making process is different than yours apparently. And I'm ok with that.

You should be too.

Posted by: Burn the Witch at May 25, 2016 08:00 PM (Wckf4)

1151 90 Ace,

Been reading your blog since 2004. Never comment. Very sad to see this post, though I knew it was coming. Trump is anathema to me. I will never vote for him or Hillary. I believe in the open society. If it is to be lost, it will not be under my vote. If the sheer nihilism of Trump supporters in the comments (who defend anything and everything he does under the banner of political convenicence) is not enough to convince you of this, I don't know what is. Our republic is dying; I will not douse its flames with incendiary. I will walk away and move to another country if I must.

J
Posted by: Jason at May 25, 2016 04:33 PM (vuTYm)

I don't know if you will see this reply many comments later, but I agree with every word.
Thank you.

Posted by: Daisy at May 25, 2016 08:01 PM (vaFpc)

1152 Personally, I don't see what's so wrong about a populist. After all, I'm one of the popples.

Posted by: Alana at May 25, 2016 08:01 PM (Vn0xA)

1153 Posted by: rickl at May 25, 2016 07:54 PM (sdi6R)

What makes you think that we're all locked into the same insane, asinine voting patterns?

Posted by: Burn the Witch at May 25, 2016 08:02 PM (Wckf4)

1154 *puts chemjeff on "ignore"*

Posted by: rickl at May 25, 2016 08:02 PM (sdi6R)

1155 Ace: It's been a very long time since I commented here (usually on grammar). You wrote the ideas that have been percolating recently in my mind in masterful way. I'm not completely on board, and not just because it parallels my thinking, but I think you are on to something and I hope it gains traction and stimulates a discussion. Thanks.

Posted by: Michael Samford at May 25, 2016 08:02 PM (gwFyH)

1156 @ chemjeff, 1146:

Their other trick is, of course, to say that if you won't vote for Trump because he is terrible on X, Y, Z, and in fact all the letters of the alphabet...then you must not be thinking straight. Because Hillary is, in fact, worse on all those issues, and anyway Trump has promised to be better and has said all the right things when he's not busy being an asshole. (Or, sometimes, has said the right things in the middle of being an asshole...or perhaps even said the right things BECAUSE asshole.) So let's take a gamble!

At least I knew I could count on McCain to be a tough defender of national security. At least I knew I could count on Romney to be a personally decent man, and relatively fiscally conservative. But I am supposed to gamble on Trump, though I can count on him for nothing concrete? Because Hillary is worse, so he just has to be better?

Yeah. Listen up, Trumpers. I know I'll hate what Hillary gives me, but at least I won't have to answer for it. I'm pretty sure Trump will not be quite as bad as Hillary, but I'll have to answer for everything of his. I am not even going to try to figure out which one of those I would be better off living with. I would rather live with neither. So I will live with neither, and let the chips fall where they may.

Posted by: Demosthenes at May 25, 2016 08:03 PM (9V0rz)

1157 None of the others, including Cruz, would be taking it to Hillary the way Trump is right now.

Posted by: Gobbagoo at May 25, 2016 08:04 PM (A/saJ)

1158 I agree with Ace's reasoning.

Posted by: Alana at May 25, 2016 08:04 PM (Vn0xA)

1159 ***"Let me know when you can bravely take a stance on how you'll vote instead of hedging your bets and trying to take both sides.

Posted by: Jamers at May 25, 2016 07:59 PM (LZgax)"***

And Let me know when you're able to start making rational arguments.

I'm not playing both sides. The fact that you can only see that option speaks more to your own inabilities than any motives you think you can impute into my argument.

Posted by: Burn the Witch at May 25, 2016 08:04 PM (Wckf4)

1160 Best elections evah!

Posted by: I won't submit at May 25, 2016 08:07 PM (zj+JZ)

1161 1154
*puts chemjeff on "ignore"*

Posted by: rickl at May 25, 2016 08:02 PM (sdi6R)
Umm, why exactly?

Posted by: chemjeff at May 25, 2016 08:07 PM (uAvJJ)

1162
Posted by: Demosthenes at May 25, 2016 08:03 PM (9V0rz)

Well let's just say, theoretically, your vote could win the election for Trump, do you pull the lever?

If you say no, Hilary gets in and wreaks havoc that loses the country for a generation don't you have to answer for that?

Posted by: thathalfrican - be water my friend at May 25, 2016 08:08 PM (R5HRU)

1163 Umm, why exactly?
Posted by: chemjeff at May 25, 2016 08:07 PM (uAvJJ)

*****

You have an incredible lack of self awareness.

Posted by: ManWithNoParty at May 25, 2016 08:11 PM (KcI5m)

1164 Am I still living rent-free in your head, MWNP?

Be careful, soon I will charge rent.

Posted by: chemjeff at May 25, 2016 08:12 PM (uAvJJ)

1165 Curt SChilling on Periscope (an app I heard about this morning) is pretty good. My thought for the day.

Posted by: Lincolntf at May 25, 2016 08:14 PM (2cS/G)

1166 Point of never Trump with me is I don't believe
either of he nor Hillary is fit to be president... and almost all that
stuff that you asked if we wanted (like transconfused bathroom
invaders)? Yeah, Trump is all in for that stuff too.

No thanks... I will vote for my cat before I vote for either of those two.

.Posted by: redbanzai at May 25, 2016 04:42 PM (3JA/M)

Yeah, Ace seems a bit over the map on this one but I'm not voting for no stinking kat. I'm voting for Daffy Duck.

Posted by: Paean Warty Twin at May 25, 2016 08:16 PM (VquEu)

1167 I'll take four years of Hillary in exchange for a good conservative candidate in 2016 over one day of Trump.

Everything bad point Ace listed about Hillary will be Trump times ten.

Let the Republican party burn, and let the rest of it burn as well. Trump has already destroyed the Republican Party.

#nevertrump.

Posted by: SGT York at May 25, 2016 08:16 PM (ITvKk)

1168 *2020...not 2016.

Brainfart.

Posted by: SGT York at May 25, 2016 08:17 PM (ITvKk)

1169 Am I still living rent-free in your head, MWNP?

Be careful, soon I will charge rent.
Posted by: chemjeff at May 25, 2016 08:12 PM (uAvJJ)

*****

Add ridiculing that which can not be logically refuted to the long list, CJ.

Posted by: ManWithNoParty at May 25, 2016 08:17 PM (KcI5m)

1170 When I doggedly voted Cruz and told everyone I knew to vote Cruz and donated to Cruz, I sure as fuck didn't do it to elect Hillary fucking Clinton. Trump and his fans have acted like shit-throwing chimpanzees at (most?) times, but those are MY shit-throwing chimpanzees thank you very much.

Posted by: fightwinger at May 25, 2016 08:17 PM (1awJn)

1171 umm... what?

Posted by: chemjeff at May 25, 2016 08:18 PM (uAvJJ)

1172 One of two people will be president in January -- Hillary Rodham Clinton, a sociopath who was a corrupt politician even before she entered politics (remember Whitewater? Her $100,000 cattles future trading) or Donald Trump.

it goes back even further, to Watergate, where Sam Nunn fired her from the Judiciary Committee staff (without a recommendation) for her illegal, unethical and unconstitutional behavior.

Posted by: Fox2! at May 25, 2016 08:19 PM (brIR5)

1173 I'm an asshole who still believes in self determination and individual freedom.

This asshole is voting for Donald John Trump.

Maybe the Civil War II still happens.

With Hillary, Civil War II is guaranteed.

Is that enough?
I'm cheap and don't want to burn up all my ammo.

Posted by: American working person at May 25, 2016 08:20 PM (gKIWe)

1174 Personally I don't feel the need to vote for an orange ignoramus whose most fervent fans think pictures of Joos having their heads blown open are as funny as oven jokes. But the vote is free. He floats your boats guys, go ahead.

Posted by: Paul Freedman at May 25, 2016 08:20 PM (gitaY)

1175 No way t catch up now but, finally Ace finally.

Posted by: frapped at May 25, 2016 08:20 PM (BO/km)

1176 PS: the idea that not voting for Trump is a vote for Hillary is a specious one, and used by anti-intellectuals who think this is a numbers game, and not people voting their ideology.

My not voting for Trump is not a vote for Hillary. It's just not voting for Trump, because the Republican Party has lost my loyalty and my vote.

You don't get my vote just because you want your side to win. You have to earn my vote, and the Republican Party, for the fourth straight presidential election, has said "fuck you and your conservative values".

Let Hillary win. There's no difference between either of them. But I'm not giving my vote to a corrupt, lying fascist just to prevent a lying, corrupt fascist from getting into office.

Posted by: SGT York at May 25, 2016 08:21 PM (ITvKk)

1177 At this point I think of Trump this way: He's billed himself as a negotiator, so let's take him at his word. He wants to represent conservatives. He may or may not actually be an ideological conservative, but just as a lawyer puts aside their own agenda to represent their client, Trump is doing the same thing.

When he makes mistakes he fixes them. He gave a bad answer on abortion, and immediately revised his position. He didn't react fast enough on David Duke, and immediately corrected himself.

He does have an ideology -- it's the things he doubles down on over and over again. He's a nationalist. He wants America first. He says "All lives matter" over and over in his speeches. The things he doubles down on over and over again are the right things, and when he says something wrong, he reverses course as soon as he figured out that what he said does not represent the sort of conservatives he has chosen to represent.

He listened to the right people and hit a home run with that list of Supreme Court nominees. Is he listening to the wrong people on other issues? If he has, I haven't heard of it.

I'm really not that worried about Trump. Unlike Obama, and Clinton he has no anti-American, anti-middle class, socialist, communist or environmentalist axe to grind.

I see him trying to get a grasp on what conservatives want out of a President and doing a pretty good job. The big question is once elected, will he turn around and ignore the people who elected him. That comes down to gut instinct and I don't think he will. I think he'll still have some liberal instincts but his lack of political ideology will steer him moderate.

This country has been living through 8 years of damage control. Another four years of a liberal ideologue is way too much to ask . The country needs some time to recover now, and under Hillary Clinton it will be full speed ahead into hard-core leftism. Please don't contribute to that happening.

Posted by: sevenwheel at May 25, 2016 08:21 PM (x/fYw)

1178 1168 *2020...not 2016.
Posted by: SGT York at May 25, 2016 08:17 PM (ITvKk)

The problem is that if Hillary wins in 2016, it will be impossible for a conservative to win ever again. The country will be irrevocably lost.

The Left is putting a major effort into turning Texas Democrat, and I think they are closer to their goal than many people realize. If that happens, it's game over.

Posted by: rickl at May 25, 2016 08:24 PM (sdi6R)

1179 To 1167:

Joke is on you, pal, for wanting a "true conservative candidate "

If Hillary Clinton is elected, you will find your ass in the government re-education camp in 2018.

Kind of like the Seinfeld Soup Nazi, but it's your freedom, not soup.
Vote away!

Posted by: American working person at May 25, 2016 08:25 PM (gKIWe)

1180 anti-Trump=anti-America=pro=Hillary=pro-illegal immigration=pro-amnesty-for-all

TRUMP/THE WALL
2016

Posted by: Myshiba at May 25, 2016 08:25 PM (tyd/S)

1181
The problem is that if Hillary wins in 2016, it will be impossible
for a conservative to win ever again. The country will be irrevocably
lost.

If TRUMP wins in 2016, it will be impossible for a conservative to win ever again. Because the public face of conservatism, Trump, will reject the free market and limited government stuff, and become a European nationalist/populist movement instead.

Posted by: chemjeff at May 25, 2016 08:27 PM (uAvJJ)

1182 It is simple: I don't voter for Liberals no matter which party's ticket they are running on. Since Trump has gotten the nomination all but done how many of his conservative positions has he 180 degreed on? From not going to raise the federal minimum wage to willing to negotiate with the Democrats for that, from not going to raise taxes to willing to negotiate with Democrats for that and has stated there will be raised taxes, from I will self fund my campaign because anyone that takes donations is nothing but a shill for the donor to hey here is my good friend from Goldman Sachs and former George Soros guy that will help me get donations (by his own definition he is going to be shilling those peoples position from now on). Then there is that list of prospect SCOTUS nominees that one day later is no longer a list he would pick from but people that might of sorta look like those people, that is open for negotiations with the Democrats too. Then there is long time belief in an "Assault Weapons" ban that he only recently changed his mind on when Brett Baier called him on it back in March at a debate. Also there is his continuing commitment to having Single Payer Healthcare for everyone that he has stated will be paid with higher corporate taxes. At least Obama was smart enough to not flip flop before the election, but this guy isn't and what does that say about the person would still vote for him? Remember when you choose the supposed lesser of two evils, you are still choosing evil. P.S. I got some Magic Beans for sale cheap to trump supporters.

Posted by: boballab at May 25, 2016 08:27 PM (e0RCR)

1183 Posted by: SGT York at May 25, 2016 08:16 PM (ITvKk)

So you assume America can afford four more years of hard left rule? Supreme court goes left, it won't fucking matter if Cal Coolidge, Ron Reagan, John Adams, Ben Franklin and George Washington came together to form one super president.

Once the left has full control of the Supreme Court the undoing of the revolution will be full and complete.

Posted by: thathalfrican - be water my friend at May 25, 2016 08:28 PM (R5HRU)

1184 VDH yesterday: http://www.hoover.org/research/why-republicans-will-vote-trump

Posted by: Michael Samford at May 25, 2016 08:29 PM (gwFyH)

1185 Posted by: chemjeff at May 25, 2016 08:27 PM (uAvJJ)

Oh come on chemjeff, anybody with a functioning brain KNOW Trump doesn't represent conservatism at all.

And before you tell me the MSM will portray it as such, so what? They would have done the same with Cruz and painted him to be some Jesus Freak Bible Thumper who wants to be in your bedroom with a list of sanctioned sexual positions.

Trump was in the my lowest tier of candidates I wanted, but Hilary is being pushed into grabbing the hammer and sickle because of Sanders' popularity. If shes elected we've got next to no statistical chance of coming through four years of her not totally screwed.

Posted by: thathalfrican - be water my friend at May 25, 2016 08:32 PM (R5HRU)

1186 <<
If Hillary Clinton is elected, you will find your ass in the government re-education camp in 2018.>>

Yeah, I heard the same hysterics when Bill Clinton ran. Fear mongering will not win my vote any more.

Posted by: SGT York at May 25, 2016 08:33 PM (ITvKk)

1187 Excellent write-up Ace!

Posted by: Deno at May 25, 2016 08:34 PM (g3y2Q)

1188 If Hillary is elected she may quite possibly cause this festering pustule to cleanse itself.

Posted by: Paean Warty Twin at May 25, 2016 08:35 PM (VquEu)

1189 1183

Hil will appoint awful justices, no doubt.

At some point in the future, even if Trump wins in 2016, there will be another Democrat in the White House. And they will appoint Supreme Court justices. Will that destroy the nation? Or is it just now, this moment, that a Dem making such appointments would bring down the Republic? Because if we have to keep the Democrats out forever, we're doomed.

If Hil wins, she will be amazingly weak - unpopular among the public and within her own party. She is likely to lose in 2020, and the Republican who beats her is likely to be more of a Constitutionalist then Trump (he could hardly be less).

Again, control of the presidency tends to swing between parties. If Trump wins, he is likely to be the most conservative president appointing Supreme Court justices for the next 8 to 16 years.

Posted by: person at May 25, 2016 08:35 PM (mFkVC)

1190 <<So you assume America can afford four more years of hard left rule?>>

Since Trump is also a candidate, all of America assumes that now. Trump isn't even left of center. He's a pure leftist.

But there won't be any hard left rule. Half of Hillary's party hates her with a passion, and I'm OK with four years of gridlock in order for the Republican Party to find its true self again in 2020.

Posted by: SGT York at May 25, 2016 08:36 PM (ITvKk)

1191 <<Hil will appoint awful justices, no doubt.
>>

Both Bushes did the same.

Posted by: SGT York at May 25, 2016 08:36 PM (ITvKk)

1192 <<The problem is that if Hillary wins in 2016, it will be impossible

for a conservative to win ever again. The country will be irrevocably

lost.>>

It's adorable that you somehow don't think it already is.

Check your public bathroom for the latest "lost" status.

Posted by: SGT York at May 25, 2016 08:38 PM (ITvKk)

1193 Oh come on chemjeff, anybody with a functioning brain KNOW Trump doesn't represent conservatism at all.
Posted by: thathalfrican - be water my friend at May 25, 2016 08:32 PM (R5HRU)

---------------------
If Trump wins, he will become the ideological leader of the party for the foreseeable future. In that case, which party will represent conservatives? Which party will even bother to pay lip service to individual liberty, small government, etc.?

The media will link Trump to conservatism, even though that is absurd. Conservatives will not have a party that is not actively hostile to their concerns.

Posted by: person at May 25, 2016 08:39 PM (mFkVC)

1194 Working class, born in Detroit, rasied in Detroit, and currently live in the middle of a corn field. Work in a small factory for Bernie's new minimum wage. Held my nose and voted for Bush, McCain, and Romney because they were not Democrats.

I will never vote for Donald Trump. The man is a parody of America. I find him to be an arrogant blowhard and believe he is every bit as dangerous as Hillary. If you honestly think he is going to build a wall you are probably still waiting for Obama to close Gitmo.

I will not be responsible for Hillary, I will not be responsible Donald. I will be responsible for the person I cast my vote for if he/she wins. I am going to stand on my "elitist upper middle class" principles and take my vote elsewhere. The stink from the new leader of the Republican party is too much this time around.

Posted by: Silent Moron at May 25, 2016 08:41 PM (ofOuM)

1195 >>>The media will link Trump to conservatism, even though that is absurd.
Conservatives will not have a party that is not actively hostile to
their concerns.<<<

I want a new party.

Posted by: Paean Warty Twin at May 25, 2016 08:42 PM (VquEu)

1196 A lot of #nevertrump-ers in public are going to be #trump-ers in private once the curtain to the voting booth is closed.

Posted by: thirteen28 at May 25, 2016 08:45 PM (Brcmp)

1197 About fucking time I read a post like this. Ace, its time to unite the blog!

Posted by: Community Organizer at May 25, 2016 08:45 PM (GN7Er)

1198 I wonder if NRO and the #nevertrump crowd has considered how much credibility they will have left amongst conservatives if Trump loses.

I hope they are prepared to defend the position if Hillary wins and the Supreme court is stacked and the 2nd amendment is under even greater attack.

After 4-8 years of Hillary I think that forgiveness and understanding is going to be very hard to come by. Unification of the party will be nothing more that a delusional pipe dream at that point.

Good luck with that.

Posted by: Vapor at May 25, 2016 08:47 PM (09nQ2)

1199 And once again, count me as one who will never vote for Trump. Just because we don't know if he'll be not as bad a disaster as Hillary is not reason enough to give him my vote. I will stay home that day with no regrets.

Posted by: Sassy at May 25, 2016 08:48 PM (8Z2uw)

1200 Posted by: person at May 25, 2016 08:35 PM (mFkVC)

There's a good chance 4 justices retire within that four years.

If Hilary get's her chance say bye bye to the Supreme Court for a generation.

We can discuss 2020 later.

Posted by: thathalfrican - be water my friend at May 25, 2016 08:48 PM (R5HRU)

1201 Let Hillary win. There's no difference between either of them. But I'm not giving my vote to a corrupt, lying fascist just to prevent a lying, corrupt fascist from getting into office.
Posted by: SGT York at May 25, 2016 08:21 PM (ITvKk)

- - -

Throwing around the word fascist makes you look as retarded as the BLM thugs. It's not a good look. But whatever.

Do what you need to do, I guess.

Posted by: Community Organizer at May 25, 2016 08:51 PM (GN7Er)

1202 I'd be fine with some more liberal over-reach. Let them bring it all crashing down. Let them smoke their pot, make up new genders and do whatever other ill-thought out stupidity that they are wont to do, and when it all comes apart and they are totally discredited, rebuild the republic and move on.

The Republic survived 240 years; hopefully the interregnum won't be too long and the 2nd Republic will learn from the mistakes of the 1st.

Posted by: aka.john at May 25, 2016 08:51 PM (4b826)

1203 "I wonder if NRO and the #nevertrump crowd has
considered how much credibility they will have left amongst
conservatives if Trump loses.

I hope they are prepared to defend the position if Hillary wins and
the Supreme court is stacked and the 2nd amendment is under even greater
attack.

After 4-8 years of Hillary I think that forgiveness and
understanding is going to be very hard to come by. Unification of the
party will be nothing more that a delusional pipe dream at that point.

Good luck with that.
Posted by: Vapor at May 25, 2016 08:47 PM (09nQ2)"

I guess Trumpkins should have thought of that before they decided to nominate the vile piece of shit.

Posted by: Orange Clown-Shaped Pile of Shit and Garbage at May 25, 2016 08:52 PM (ztrrs)

1204 I've never voted FOR anyone. Have you?

I've always voted against someone.

Did anyone vote FOR George W Bush? If so, I wonder how many of those geniuses are now Never Trumpers. Bush a conservative worthy of being voted FOR? Hardly. But he got elected due to so many people voting AGAINST Gore. And thank God for that. Seriously.

Come on. Enough of the True Conservative Puritanism already. I'll take Trump as a "Conservative" over the last two Bushes and the two pansy-ass SoCons that got beat by Obama.

Oh, by the way, thanks for the Obama Years! Sure hope you True Conservatives don't enable a Hillary Clinton presidency.

I guess the Never Trumpers can bask in self importance and delusional moral superiority while waiting for Reagan II. Again.

Bonus! None of It will be your fault. Right? Yay you! And you can bitch and moan from the mountain for eight more years.

Posted by: My friends, don't be scared of aHillsry Clinton presidency at May 25, 2016 08:52 PM (ZedYY)

1205 You can vote against someone as well as you can vote for someone. It's a rare time that I get to vote for someone. This is not one of those times.

Posted by: freaked at May 25, 2016 08:52 PM (BO/km)

1206 he Left is putting a major effort into turning Texas Democrat, and I think they are closer to their goal than many people realize. If that happens, it's game over.
Posted by: rickl at May 25, 2016 08:24 PM (sdi6R)

Yes, texas is the key to everything at tis point.

Texas hates Trump. Fuck him.

Posted by: stace at May 25, 2016 08:54 PM (ozZau)

1207 1200
There's a good chance 4 justices retire within that four years.

If Hilary get's her chance say bye bye to the Supreme Court for a generation.

Posted by: thathalfrican - be water my friend at May 25, 2016 08:48 PM (R5HRU)

Not for a generation. Forever. There will be no going back.

We may already be past the point of no return, as SGT York said in #1192.

Posted by: rickl at May 25, 2016 08:55 PM (sdi6R)

1208 I really can't understand why anyone who voted for McCain and Rommny would not vote for DT. Haven't your principles already been compromised?

Posted by: freaked at May 25, 2016 08:56 PM (BO/km)

1209 I guess Trumpkins should have thought of that before they decided to nominate the vile piece of shit.
Posted by: Orange Clown-Shaped Pile of Shit and Garbage at May 25, 2016 08:52 PM (ztrrs)

- - -

You must be a joy to live with.

Posted by: Community Organizer at May 25, 2016 08:56 PM (GN7Er)

1210 1206 he Left is putting a major effort into turning Texas Democrat, and I think they are closer to their goal than many people realize. If that happens, it's game over.
Posted by: rickl at May 25, 2016 08:24 PM (sdi6R)

Yes, texas is the key to everything at tis point.

Texas hates Trump. Fuck him.
Posted by: stace at May 25, 2016 08:54 PM (ozZau)

Yep way to go you other fucked up states.

you should have gone the TX route.
fuck all ya'll
We'll just have to secede. The non-trumpers are allowed to come here, but not the Trumpkins.

Posted by: stace at May 25, 2016 08:58 PM (ozZau)

1211 There's a good chance 4 justices retire within that four years.

If Hilary get's her chance say bye bye to the Supreme Court for a generation.

We can discuss 2020 later.
Posted by: thathalfrican - be water my friend at May 25, 2016 08:48 PM (R5HRU)
-----

This is absolutely the most convincing reason to consider voting for Trump. I still don't think its entirely effective, however.

We don't know much about the justices Trump would choose, but we can be relatively sure of one thing - he will not choose ANYONE who is likely to challenge his own power, the power of the executive. That kind of person, of course, is exactly what conservatives need, someone to reassert the checks-and-balances in the government and rein in the runaway executive. Most likely, Trump will appoint compliant cronies.

We've been hearing about all the justices that will retire or die for several presidential cycle. There may be 4 openings for the next president to fill. What if there's only 1 or 2? What if the next president, a democrat elected in 2020, gets to fill 2 or 3?

Trump's election would redefine the ideological direction of the GOP - it might be a very long time before either party would consider a strict constructionist.

Posted by: person at May 25, 2016 08:58 PM (mFkVC)

1212 Posted by: rickl at May 25, 2016 08:55 PM (sdi6R)

Maybe it is over, maybe not. I do know however that if there is a heartbeat left, it dies with Clinton being elected.

I'll go with the wild eyed crazyman and hope to hell he's like Willy Wonka after you tell him you're not going to sell the everlasting gobstopper to Slugworth.

Posted by: thathalfrican - be water my friend at May 25, 2016 09:00 PM (R5HRU)

1213 1206
Yes, texas is the key to everything at tis point.

Texas hates Trump. Fuck him.
Posted by: stace at May 25, 2016 08:54 PM (ozZau)

You better get busy with secession, then. Because once Texas is turned, it will be mathematically impossible for any Republican to be elected President.

Posted by: rickl at May 25, 2016 09:01 PM (sdi6R)

1214 Posted by: person at May 25, 2016 08:58 PM (mFkVC)

That's a well reasoned argument, my only rebuttal without getting into psychoanalyzing Trump, which I'm down with but I've been drinking and it's been a long day, I'm just not willing to take that risk.

Posted by: thathalfrican - be water my friend at May 25, 2016 09:05 PM (R5HRU)

1215 1208 I really can't understand why anyone who voted for McCain and Rommny would not vote for DT. Haven't your principles already been compromised?
Posted by: freaked at May 25, 2016 08:56 PM (BO/km)

he's a fucking reality show. he's Jesse ventura. FFS

Posted by: stace at May 25, 2016 09:05 PM (ozZau)

1216 I guess Trumpkins should have thought of that before they decided to nominate the vile piece of shit.
Posted by: Orange Clown-Shaped Pile of Shit and Garbage at May 25, 2016 08:52 PM (ztrrs)
------
The problem with your self-righteous position is that a majority have in fact voted for him and not one of the other multitude of candidates which you might prefer. Much to your obvious dismay that's how a constitutional republic works. You might convince yourself that you have no responsibility for the outcome but good luck convincing anybody else. It's a delusional argument. Especially after a few years of Hillary.

Posted by: Vapor at May 25, 2016 09:07 PM (09nQ2)

1217 Saw this on Sean's site; I think you have to explain and eat crow if necessary. The point you make in this post is original and powerful. Don't let it be undercut and overshadowed by a flippant comment.

https://pbs.tw___.com/media/CjV564yUYAANvYr.jpg

Posted by: Michael Samford at May 25, 2016 09:12 PM (gwFyH)

1218 Trump is a morally reprehensible human being.

Limbaugh taught the Democrats operation chaos and they beat us with it.

Posted by: Paean Warty Twin at May 25, 2016 09:12 PM (VquEu)

1219 1208
I really can't understand why anyone who voted for McCain and Rommny
would not vote for DT. Haven't your principles already been compromised?

I didn't agree with much of what McCain or Romney was selling but they at least had a moral compass that was guiding them. (Again, not that I agreed with the direction it was pointing.) Trump is just vile. I see no redeeming quality whatsoever. He lives and lies for the sole purpose of glorifying his name.

Posted by: Silent Moron at May 25, 2016 09:12 PM (ofOuM)

1220 "Just put you ego to the side and remember this election isn't about your ego, it's about America and our shared future."

Yeah, just like the last six or seven presidential elections. For some reason the lesser-of-two evils just doesn't seem to get any better when the next election cycle comes around.

Posted by: jim at May 25, 2016 09:12 PM (TddCJ)

1221 What is this:
#NeverTrumpers Quickly Morphing Into #NeverABadWordAboutHillary; ?

To be against Trump is not to be automatically for Hillary.

A Pox on both their houses. The preferred course is to tell the truth about both - the whole truth. And if that means exposing some very dirty laundry-so be it.

It is way to early to decide to go with either; a lot can happen between now and November.

A third party may emerge. Who knows? Hillary could be indicted or keel over. We still don't know what Heir Trump is all about. Maybe Trump will tack right and getta clue. It's anybody's guess about those two crooks.

Posted by: Unsk at May 25, 2016 09:13 PM (ItEIu)

1222 @ 1162

"Well let's just say, theoretically, your vote could win the election for Trump, do you pull the lever?

"If you say no, Hilary gets in and wreaks havoc that loses the country for a generation don't you have to answer for that?"

* * * * *

Number 1, if my vote could WIN the election for Trump, then not casting it would leave him and Hillary in a tie. So, yes, in that case, I would refuse to vote for Hillary or Trump.

Number 2, I live in Oklahoma. If Trump needs my help winning one of the reddest states in America, then he's already lost the election. If he's even competitive in the general, then he'll have won here and my vote will make no difference. Either way, my vote doesn't matter to you. But since my personal honor matters to me, I'll give my vote to the Libertarian candidate or I won't vote at all.

Number 3, you suck at hypotheticals. Next time, make sure they actually apply.

Posted by: Demosthenes at May 25, 2016 09:20 PM (9V0rz)

1223 We know what Trump is all about. His history with Republicans and Democrats and the law is well documented.

Posted by: Paean Warty Twin at May 25, 2016 09:20 PM (VquEu)

1224 Bad link above in 1217:

https://pbs.tw___.com/media/CjV564yUYAANvYr.jpg

Posted by: Michael Samford at May 25, 2016 09:21 PM (gwFyH)

1225 @ 1208

Let me quote myself from earlier:

"At least I knew I could count on McCain to be a tough defender of national security. At least I knew I could count on Romney to be a personally decent man, and relatively fiscally conservative. But I am supposed to gamble on Trump, though I can count on him for nothing concrete? Because Hillary is worse, so he just has to be better?"

And now let me add: if you want me to vote for a Republican for President, you better make sure they're on nodding acquaintance with at least one of the major pillars of conservatism -- natsec, fiscal, social. That's not much to ask. McCain cleared that bar. So did Romney. Trump not only doesn't clear the bar, he's actually in a tunnel five miles underneath the bar. And he's digging.

Posted by: Demosthenes at May 25, 2016 09:24 PM (9V0rz)

1226 Yep way to go you other fucked up states.

you should have gone the TX route.
fuck all ya'll
We'll just have to secede. The non-trumpers are allowed to come here, but not the Trumpkins.
Posted by: stace at May 25, 2016 08:58 PM (ozZau)

*****

You can take your holier than though attitude and shove it right up your ass, right after you finish fucking yourself. If you are willing to put that vile bitch into office with the actions you advocate, you are worse than useless. You are actively in the way.

So, follow, lead or GTF out of the way. These are now your choices.

Posted by: ManWithNoParty at May 25, 2016 09:25 PM (YLidQ)

1227 Still bad link in 1224. Go to Jim Treacher on Twitter 730 pm CST May 25.

Posted by: Michael Samford at May 25, 2016 09:25 PM (gwFyH)

1228 I have seen a lot of people saying that they will not vote for Trump with the understanding that the Hildabeast becomes the POTUS with the rationale that they want a perfect candidate (Cruz, Rubio, or what ever tickles their fancy).

Newsflash: There is only one perfect candidate, and His name is Jesus Christ. So, you are going to have to settle for some one less than perfect. Trump is no prize, but he is not the female version of the anti-Christ that the evil Clinton embodies.

Posted by: Braden Lynch at May 25, 2016 09:31 PM (pRnlX)

1229 @ 1228

See 1219. Then see 1225. Then gargle with antifreeze.

Posted by: Demosthenes at May 25, 2016 09:33 PM (9V0rz)

1230 4) BOTH candidates are big Government Authoritarians who want to abuse Executive power.

Doing the plans of EITHER are harmful for the country for the next 4 years.

Now look ahead to 2020. Do we want the GOP or the DNC to be blamed for screwing up the nation worse than ever and the other given full control to try to fix the issues?

Alternatively; ask yourself which party has a CHANCE to fix the issues of a big government authoritarian driving up costs and damaging the economy and our national standing?

Now if you think Trump is the most amazing person ever, and HIS style of "cut no entitlements, and no spending, raise taxes on the rich, and institute tariffs for more Government control and revenue on the backs of the citizenry... OH and "change the rules" so he can silence the news he doesn't like" is going to save the nation and NOT fail miserably? Fine.

Maybe the only reason Big Government Authoritarian Democrats fail is that they're Democrats... and all their policies are great; if done by a Republican.

Hey, if Trump gets elected we'll get to find out if the (R) can make liberal Democrat big government policies and spending work like the Democrats always hope they will.

Of course if they FAIL... then the Democrats get control of everything as they're the party who did NOT screw things up. And they'll hang the authoritarian idiot/bully around the GOP's necks for decades.

...

Disagree if you like; maybe we just need Big "Republican" Authoritarian Government and the country will go swimmingly.

But two things.
1) I doubt it strongly.
2) You never EVER ever get to use the term "RINO" again for anyone who is being too liberal.
* Yes, you may use that term for anyone who isn't liberal enough; as that seems to be what the term is now morphing into.

Deal? Or is anything I said unfair or untrue?

If it's about "America and our future"; why is looking FOUR YEARS ahead too far to consider?
That only makes sense if you believe "narcissistic buffoon" is a path to economic and policy success. If it were, we'd be much better off today, wouldn't we?

Posted by: gekkobear at May 25, 2016 09:38 PM (FIMzP)

1231 Posted by: Demosthenes at May 25, 2016 09:20 PM (9V0rz)

Haha ok man.

"I'd rather feel good than do good."

Yeah my hypothetical wasn't very good I'll admit, so let me change it - if your vote would tie the election or would give Hilary the presidency what would you do?

Posted by: thathalfrican - be water my friend at May 25, 2016 09:41 PM (R5HRU)

1232 @ 1231

That might be the one scenario in which I would vote for Trump. But again, it's irrelevant, since we don't live in CloudCuckooLand. We live in the real world, where my vote will be spent in a red state. And again, if Trump needs me to win that state, we're already looking at President Hillary.

One of the keys to constructing good hypotheticals is to make sure they are realistic. I don't really spend a lot of time worrying about what I would do in a world where we all had feet for hands, or a world where mice ran the economy, or a world where the Detroit Lions were about to win their fourth straight Super Bowl. I live in the real world.

Posted by: Demosthenes at May 25, 2016 09:47 PM (9V0rz)

1233 Ace ... you might wish to calm yourself. Seriously. And perhaps take your own advice about stepping away from politics for a bit.

I can recall when you were all Burn It All Down, which was the mindset that gave us the Curiously Orange Hypno-Toad. Then it was Hashtag-Never-Trump. Now it's this.

I am, thank God, not a Republican. I am, by the grace of God, a conservative (in the modern sense and usage: a Classical Liberal, like the Founders). My perspective is thus one rather of principle than of partisanship. Like Milton Friedman, I will generally support Republican candidates ... if they support my principles. And not otherwise.

It is not yet November. Indeed, it is not yet July. Even a week is a long time in politics.

It would, as my Twitter reflects and has done since it appeared that donald trump - a man undeserving of intitial caps - might well be Republican nominee, be inaccurate to call me a #NeverTrumper; I am, as may readily be seen, a #NeverTrumpOrHillary advocate. As it is not yet July, much less November, I do not concede that refusing to choose between a brain tumor and bowel cancer, between Evita or Galtieri, is an "objectively pro-Hillary" stance. So long as there remains time for the Republicans to pull back for the brink, sounding the alarm is not merely excusable, it is a duty. You are premature.

It remains true that my principles will not allow me to vote for either; I shall instead vote seriously on down-ballot candidates who can stop executive overreach by either, should the choice in fact be between Krupskaya and Putin-Lite. The suggestion that in declining to give the moral imprimatur of my vote to either is somehow a betrayal of conservatism or of our common country is as unworthy as it is intemperate; and it is so intemperate that, had a commenter made it rather than you, that commenter would have been banned. Unless of course that policy has also suffered another sudden polar reversal.

That I cannot in good conscience vote for either likely major-party nominee, neither of whom HAS a conscience, does not proceed from wanting to be liked by Leftists: I never have been, never shall be, and should hate to be. Nor is it a matter of education or class-consciousness. I am more than a trifle offended that you should contend that it is.

In fact, it is quite simple. They are both statists. I do not vote for statists. Period.

Again, I remind you that the man is not nominated yet: why ought I to cease calling him out for what he is at this of all times? And, I remind you, executive orders or no, the House and the Senate can, if they would, stop the statist impulses of either of these statists by simple means ... if, instead of all getting on the Trumpian Trumpery Statist Express, we ensure, all of us, that there is a conservative Senate majority and a conservative House. Your post may have relieved your mind, but I think on reflection you will repent of it in days to come.

In any case, as for me and my house ... there will be no votes for statists, under any banner.

Posted by: MarkhamShawPyle at May 25, 2016 09:49 PM (WlkUc)

1234 Following up on what I just said in 1232, if Trump were winning the election by one vote, and my vote would tie the election or secure it for the Donald...well, that might be the one scenario in which I would vote for Hillary. Fortunately, though, I don't live in that world. So, NeverHillary, and NeverTrump.

Posted by: Demosthenes at May 25, 2016 09:50 PM (9V0rz)

1235 Welp, I just wanna see how deep your honor goes.

You've cleared that up.

Thanks

Posted by: thathalfrican - be water my friend at May 25, 2016 09:51 PM (R5HRU)

1236 Good article

Posted by: NCwoof at May 25, 2016 09:52 PM (aUQgu)

1237 Hi Ace -- I don't vote for liberals of whichever party.

Period.

Didn't vote for McCain. Didn't vote for Romney. Won't vote for Trump.

We need -- more than Not Having A Democrat As President -- an actual conservative opposition party. If we don't have that we really do have nothing but The Washington Party with various liberals vying for power.

Will Trump as President get us closer to that opposition party? No.

We will be *farther away* from having an opposition party with Trump as President.

And closer to the third party that spells Democrats in the White House for the coming 50 years, while the third party gains its footing.

I don't want that.

I'll take four or eight years more of Democrats in the White House in order to someday have an opposition party in the Republican Party.

Will we suffer?

Yes, we will. But that's what happens when there's no opposition party. Having Hillary Clinton as President is merely the consequences of the Republican Party's leadership being who they are.

Actions have consequences. They reaped. Now we sow.

It's very sad. But it's how it's going to be.

Posted by: Igor at May 25, 2016 09:53 PM (hyZLL)

1238 You mean that you believe my honor hinges on whether I would take the same action as I will in this world...in a world that does not exist and never will?

Umm. Sure. It doesn't, but if you want to insist that it does, knock yourself out. I adhere to my standards, not to yours, and not to what you think mine should be.

Posted by: Demosthenes at May 25, 2016 09:58 PM (9V0rz)

1239 Reasons for being NeverTrump:
1. Neither candidate is worth voting for. They're both authoritarian narcissist scofflaws. You want me to believe that because Hillary is awful, Orange Obama is better. I don't.
2. Your vote is not going to swing the election in your state.
3. Your state is not going to swing the national election.
4. Your vote doesn't count the way you think it does.
5. Your vote has much more influence as a protest vote than as a possibly-lesser-of-two-evils vote.
6. You get to avoid voting for someone instead of simply against someone. (And really, voting isn't designed to vote against people.)
7. We lost when Trump got the nomination. We cannot win this election. It is already lost.

Posted by: Original Roy at May 25, 2016 09:58 PM (fASYn)

1240 Should be "You get to vote for someone" in my #6.

Posted by: Original Roy at May 25, 2016 10:00 PM (fASYn)

1241 "Either way, my vote doesn't matter to you. But since my personal honor matters to me, I'll give my vote to the Libertarian candidate or I won't vote at all. "

Did I miss something?

Posted by: thathalfrican - be water my friend at May 25, 2016 10:04 PM (R5HRU)

1242 So if the GOPe were to step in and somehow replace Trump with another candidate before the general.. Do the nevertrump crowd really think the candidate could beat Hillary after disenfranchising millions of voters who selected trump as the candidate?

Personally I think a mass exodus from the GOP is more likely under that scenario.

Posted by: Vapor at May 25, 2016 10:06 PM (09nQ2)

1243 I have been feeling this way for the last 2 weeks. #NeverHillary and #NeverBernie are my hashtags. Or let's just make it easy: #NeverDemocrat.

Posted by: debiesam at May 25, 2016 10:07 PM (bz0gL)

1244 Odd. How about a leftist populist? Maybe thats not
describing him correctly.

Posted by: Mimzey at May 25, 2016 07:03 PM (aRUb

populist nationalist to be exact, I dig the nationalism part, don't much care for the populist portion.

Posted by: JadedByPolitics at May 25, 2016 10:08 PM (jSlyo)

1245 Sorry, but no. He was in favor of the assault weapons ban and universal healthcare, just like Romney, and I didn't vote for that loser either. This guy is worse, because he actually tried to use eminent domain to push an old woman off her land so he could bulldoze it and build a parking lot for limousines.

Trump's going to win pretty handily regardless. He's showing the pros how it's done, and Hillary is showing the world what a vile, criminal cunt she really is. But I'm neither going to support Trump nor am I going to support the Republican Party. Neither of them is going to represent me and both are just going to annoy the everliving shit out of me.

Let. It. Burn. That's what was repeated over and over again so long ago now. Well, folks. Guess you can't. I can. Let's just get it over with now and knock it off with the pausing while pulling off the band-aid.

Posted by: s at May 25, 2016 10:22 PM (HCXGq)

1246 #1210 #1206 Actually, there were some good signs in the recent runoff elections here in Texas. Lot of conservatives picked up seats or offices, not just from the D's but actually knocking off a couple of Strauss's RINO lieutenants to replace them with genuine conservatives.

Posted by: richard mcenroe at May 25, 2016 10:24 PM (Kucy5)

1247 Joke is on you, pal, for wanting a "true conservative candidate "

If Hillary Clinton is elected, you will find your ass in the government re-education camp in 2018.

Kind of like the Seinfeld Soup Nazi, but it's your freedom, not soup.

Vote away!

Posted by: American working person at May 25, 2016 08:25 PM (gKIWe)

You didn't want ANY kind of conservative candidate? Do you think Trump is any kind of conservative?

Posted by: Mimzey at May 25, 2016 10:27 PM (aRUb8)

1248 Ace, it really doesn't matter whether we vote for Trump or not. He's already said he doesn't need us and can win without us.

Posted by: richard mcenroe at May 25, 2016 10:27 PM (Kucy5)

1249 "Just put you ego to the side and remember this election isn't about your ego, it's about America and our shared future."

Would he have said this if Rubio was the nom? He says he'd would've voted for Hil to beat Rubio. So I guess Hil's not so bad, huh?

Posted by: Apostic at May 25, 2016 10:29 PM (iE5OI)

1250 Stop supporting Gary Johnson. We supported Perot and got Bill. Don't let it happen again.

Posted by: pointsnfigures at May 25, 2016 10:33 PM (4aAEQ)

1251 I don't vote for lying skunks and Trump lies a he breaths. . Nor do I vote for those who encourage race baiting. I especially don't vote for misogynist pigs. Thus I will never vote for Donald Trump.

He won't be the first Republican nominee I haven't voted for, either. I proudly never voted for Ed Vyrdolyak, an ambitious, amoral Democrat turncoat whose Chicago playbook Trump seems to have borrowed, or George Ryan for governor.

Posted by: NC Mountainl Girl at May 25, 2016 10:43 PM (2Kzr4)

1252 The latest I saw was Neil Boortz and his "Hamilton Rule" - support Shrillary because it is better to be in opposition to her than be associated with Trump's flaws.

When I pointed out that Hamilton's throwing Adams under the bus in favor of Jefferson destroyed his party, the NeverTrumpers got upset that I learned from history rather than endorsing their charge to repeat it.

Posted by: Sam at May 25, 2016 10:46 PM (x15d2)

1253 Trying to have a reasoned argument with the nevertrump crowd is disturbingly like trying to discuss economics with a Bernie supporter.

It always seems to come down to "I want", followed by emotion and rhetoric.

Fact is there won't be much of a country or GOP party left if Hillary is elected. It's simple cause and effect.

Great article Ace. Well thought out and reasoned.

Posted by: Vapor at May 25, 2016 10:48 PM (09nQ2)

1254 I'm honestly not even sure why this is a question for anyone. If Hillary isn't sufficient motivation to support Trump, then just pretend he's running against the invaders and insurrectionist thugs attacking peaceful rally-goers in CA and NM. Oh, wait, he actually *is* running against them. My bad. So, no pretending necessary.

In the abstract, I suppose it's possible to oppose both Trump *and* the goons who shut down political debates and rallies. But in a practical matter, it's not. His win is their loss.

Posted by: Anti Antifa at May 25, 2016 10:49 PM (pRrnq)

1255 Why not do what I'm going to do:

Wait until right before the election.

If the polls show it's close vote for Trump.

If the polls show it's not even close write in whatever random person you like.

(I'm going to write in Scott Walker.)

You know everybody is going to figure this out sooner or later.

Posted by: Terrible, America, Terrible at May 25, 2016 10:55 PM (GyTPW)

1256 "Let me ask you, what can Trump do in the remaining 5 months to get you to at least hold your nose and pull the lever"

He could recite the Bill of Rights without a prompter and tell me where to find them (Hint, not in Two Corinthians).

Posted by: richard mcenroe at May 25, 2016 10:58 PM (Kucy5)

1257 One of the reasons conservatives have lost the culture wars so horribly is that they refuse to step out of their abstractions. As much as we criticize the Left for dwelling in the realm of abstraction, conservatives are probably more guilty of it. Say what you want about the Left, they understand how people work and how to manipulate them. And though they don't believe in individualism, they certainly understand the will to power. They are in fact getting things done. And have been for some time. They're conquering territory and raping the war prisoners' women. Meanwhile, conservatives are living in fantasy land and fapping to their "principles."

Outside the realm of the abstract, only two things are possible:

1: Support Trump.
2: Support the rioters.

This really is it.

Posted by: Anti Antifa at May 25, 2016 11:00 PM (pRrnq)

1258 RE: "It always seems to come down to "I want", followed by emotion and rhetoric."

I dunno -- I'm pretty emotionless myself. Life is hard. I deal with that reality. Voting for Trump harms both the country and *particularly* destroys the possibility of the Republican Party ever becoming the conservative opposition party, driving people to a hopelessly awful third party creation that kills any chance of achieving power for 50 years, rather than another eight.

Voting for Trump further enables the Republican wing of the Washington Party.

There are very very bad things for the country.

RE: "Fact is there won't be much of a country or GOP party left if Hillary is elected."

Oh no -- there won't be a GOP party if Trump is elected -- or rather there won't be a GOP party that conservatives deal with.

RE: "It's simple cause and effect."

There we can agree. Had the Republican party been led by conservative opposition leaders, Trump would not have been a viable consideration and it's very likely we would have had a nominee who could beat Hillary.

Now Hillary will be our next President. It's tragic -- but cause and effect.

Posted by: Igor at May 25, 2016 11:21 PM (hyZLL)

1259 "Let me ask you, what can Trump do in the remaining 5 months to get you to at least hold your nose and pull the lever"

Eliminate his record of both actions and statements of clear belief from the past 25 years from the record -- I've been listening to him for that long.

Other than that, nothing.

Posted by: Igor at May 25, 2016 11:24 PM (hyZLL)

1260 This is why I read your blog.

Posted by: Fen at May 25, 2016 11:32 PM (9IxsR)

1261 "The problem with your self-righteous position is that a majority have in fact voted for him and not one of the other multitude of candidates which you might prefer. Much to your obvious dismay that's how a constitutional republic works. You might convince yourself that you have no responsibility for the outcome but good luck convincing anybody else. It's a delusional argument. Especially after a few years of Hillary.
Posted by: Vapor at May 25, 2016 09:07 PM (09"

39% is a majority. That's the New Math in The Golden Age of the Orange Messiah.

Posted by: Orange Clown-Shaped Pile of Shit and Garbage at May 25, 2016 11:33 PM (ztrrs)

1262 RE: "only two things are possible:

1: Support Trump.

2: Support the rioters"

Or a third one . . . "Of two evils, choose neither."

I don't vote for Trotsky over Lenin.

Posted by: Igor at May 25, 2016 11:38 PM (hyZLL)

1263 The rationale is that Hillary unifies the Republican Party once again and puts up opposition to her every step of the way. Trump splinters the Republican party, decimating conservatism and every righty who looks at him askance along the way, pushing liberal policies with bipartisan support that sets the right back as much as under a liberal President. Then, when it comes time for reelection, the left is energized against him, Trump loses, and the right is done.

Trump doesn't take kindly to opposition, especially from the right, which draws all his ire. When the right tells him to act more righty, he will go after them with fury and vengeance. And there will only be a small segment of the party who will care.

Posted by: Me, That's who at May 25, 2016 11:48 PM (kJQl6)

1264 It is true, yes, to be sure, that we are, in what has certainly been a most unfortunate turn of events, in fact and in all actuality, being invaded. I have seen on occasion our citizens being battered and bullied by said invaders, and, as a Stalwart Conservative in the vein of Burke, Reagan, and Erickson, this pains me.

However, some things are more important--like principles. I understand that for the unprincipled, this may be hard to grasp. But, alas, such cognitive failure seems the fate of our whole sorry race.* I shall not endeavor to explain it again, as I feel it is, at this point, certainly well-traveled ground, but good heavens, sir! My principles will not allow me to vote for the man who stands against the hordes, for he is vulgar and said once with regards to national healthcare, that he would "not let people die in the streets."

One will vote as one wishes, of course. But, as for me, I shall sleep soundly at night, for I have not forsaken my principles.

*And by "race" I mean the only race their is, i.e., the human race. In other eras I should imagine this would go without saying; however, in today's world there is the small matter of the so-called "alt-right," and so I must attach this codicil (so to speak) to my missive, lest I be mistaken for one of their ilk.

Posted by: Stalwart Conservative at May 25, 2016 11:54 PM (pRrnq)

1265 John McAfee 2016. If we're going with an eccentric billionaire, let's pick one that can escape a corrupt government that wants him dead.

Posted by: s at May 25, 2016 11:55 PM (HCXGq)

1266 Yep, Me That's Who.

"If we must have an enemy at the head of Government, let it be one whom
we can oppose, and for whom we are not responsible, who will not involve
our party in the disgrace of his foolish and bad measures."
Alexander Hamilton

Posted by: Igor at May 26, 2016 12:00 AM (hyZLL)

1267 "Or a third one . . . 'Of two evils, choose neither.'"

Lol. Yeah, this isn't an actual position. You're in the realm of abstraction. There, any number of positions are possible. As a practical matter, two positions are possible.

But you already know all of this.

Look, it's okay. I got it. You choose the rioters. I won't try to convince you otherwise. You do you, bud.

Posted by: Anti Antifa at May 26, 2016 12:02 AM (pRrnq)

1268 Ace is full of shit. Burn it down my ass. Quit twitter, yeah right. What a phony.
Ace voted for Bill Clinton and has repeatedly trashed Trump and his supporters.

Posted by: David Silver at May 26, 2016 12:03 AM (DEJix)

1269 1258 RE: "It always seems to come down to "I want", followed by emotion and rhetoric."

RE: I dunno -- I'm pretty emotionless myself. Life is hard. I deal with that reality. Voting for Trump harms both the country and *particularly* destroys the possibility of the Republican Party ever becoming the conservative opposition party, driving people to a hopelessly awful third party creation that kills any chance of achieving power for 50 years, rather than another eight.

I would suggest that electing hillary is more likely to produce the results you mention. Your position that if Trump is elected the GOP and the country is doomed seems more an emotion driven prediction than one based on reason. What evidence do you have that your prediction is a probable outcome?

RE: Voting for Trump further enables the Republican wing of the Washington Party.

And so you would simply surrender this election and count on a positive outcome 8 years from now after Hillary has a chance to implement amnesty and stack the supreme court? C'mon man.Sounds a lot like "hope and change".

RE: These are very very bad things for the country.

As will be the further weaponization of the IRS and other alphabet agencies, a stacked supreme court and the repeal of the second amendment. Very bad.

RE: Oh no -- there won't be a GOP party if Trump is elected -- or rather there won't be a GOP party that conservatives deal with.

Again a supposition based on more emotion than fact.

RE: There we can agree. Had the Republican party been led by conservative opposition leaders, Trump would not have been a viable consideration and it's very likely we would have had a nominee who could beat Hillary.

I know you wanted another candidate (so did I) and I'm sorry thats not the case. These are the circumstances we find ourselves in however and as conservatives we have to deal in reality. See: "I want".

RE: Now Hillary will be our next President. It's tragic -- but cause and effect.

And so you suggest surrender and waiting 8 years as a more positive and productive choice than defeating Hillary with Trump. I see no evidence you are correct and quite a bit to the contrary. If the GOP cannot defeat a candidate as weak as Hillary than I see no reason for it to even exist much less to give it my support in 4-8 years.

Posted by: Vapor at May 26, 2016 12:08 AM (09nQ2)

1270 Yep, it's time. At this point, opposing Trump is sheer petulance and spite. It's cutting off one's FACE to spite one's face.

Trump may be tacky and nouveau riche, but Hildabeast would STEAL the White House furniture (again!), not gild it.

Re Supreme Court judges: Trump's May 19th list of Court picks is all Republican judges, all appointed by Republican pols. So we could have Supremes like that -- or we could have a couple more hard-Left bull dykes like E. Kagan.

Lastly, hoping the American electorate will "get it" that Socialists are bad if we have 8 MORE years of this crap is a forlorn hope indeed: if Prez Composite Girlfriend's reign wouldn't do it, honey, nobody can.

Posted by: Beverly at May 26, 2016 12:16 AM (S6uqW)

1271 Say, this was meant for Christians but maybe it might have some relevance here.

Suppose the United States all of a sudden became muslim.

Sharia law, majority muslim, muslim candidates for president.

And suppose one candidate said, "I promise to kill one million Christians."

And the other said, "I promise to kill two million Christians."

What would you think of people who said I'm not going to vote for either one because neither one is good enough for me?

Posted by: Terrible, America, Terrible at May 26, 2016 12:18 AM (GyTPW)

1272 RE: 39% is a majority. That's the New Math in The Golden Age of the Orange Messiah.
Posted by: Orange Clown-Shaped Pile of Shit and Garbage at May 25, 2016 11:33 PM (ztrrs)

OK lets play math.

We have 100% of the conservative vote divided by 17 candidates. So if each candidate pulls 5.88% that would be an even split. Trump pulled 39% by your numbers and it will be higher still since the others have dropped out at this point.

But lets be honest you knew that already before you pulled that number out of the ether to try and discredit my argument.

Posted by: Vapor at May 26, 2016 12:27 AM (09nQ2)

1273 If it makes any nevertrumpers feel better, ass-weasel cruz is still working for delegates just in case it goes for a second vote in the convention.

Posted by: Burnt Toast at May 26, 2016 12:27 AM (iYTlX)

1274 Posted by: Terrible, America, Terrible at May 26, 2016 12:18 AM (GyTPW)
**********************
OK let's run with your scenario.

President A gets voted in by a wide margin. Day one in office: issues order as Commander in Chief to start killing one million Christians. Before the hour is out, Congress is in session impeaching him. The generals, to a man, refuse to obey the order. Christians with guns, having prepared and been warned, have gathered into many groups with much firepower saying "bring it on."

My point? You're acting as if (1) the president (#1 or #2) is the only actor is this situation with choices and (2) it is somehow moral to actively vote to support either of these people.

I'm all for getting behind imperfect candidates. Never missed an election in my life. But that's different from voting for someone totally unacceptable. Trump and Clinton are two fascistic, thin-skinned, proabortion, bulldozing liars who will do ANYTHING to further their own interests.

I'd much rather have a dem President take the heat for the collapse to come, which is coming no matter who gets into office. Ben Shapiro has a great piece on NR today about predicting what Trump will do with the presidency if he gets it.

And I'm sure as HELL not going to be standing in front of Reince Priebus at the end of my life answering not to the standard of "did you win" but rather the standard of "were you faithful to Me as best you knew how?"

Did I mention I've never missed an election? I get what people are saying. But some candidates cannot be gotten behind in good conscience.

"I believe that when men forsake their own private conscience for the sake of their public duties, they lead their country by a short route to chaos." --Robert Bolt, A Man for All Seasons, spoken by Thomas More

Posted by: no one of consequence at May 26, 2016 12:30 AM (UgDBa)

1275 @ 1241

Yeah, you missed something. Not surprising.

Actions can vary according to a change in situations as well as a change in rules of action. You ask me about a situation that is not like the one we're facing. I apply my rules, and come up with a different result. You think that's inconsistent. The more fool you.

@ 1271

I'd say those people were sane...especially if they were Christian. The promised killer of one million might easily see the benefit in killing two million (or more) later, if circumstances changed. And the promised killer of two million might have cause to back down to one million (or less). You don't know. What you should be fairly sure of, though, is that they each mean to kill *some* Christians. Voting for Option 1 or Option 2, at that point, is like being a sheep attending a committee meeting to help plan the design of your slaughterhouse.

Posted by: Demosthenes at May 26, 2016 12:31 AM (9V0rz)

1276 Ah good old Ace. From NeverTrump to happy to suck his prisoner of war hating cock.

You're a sad joke.

Posted by: Gadfly at May 26, 2016 12:34 AM (KwhDH)

1277 @ 1272

Even Mitt Romney managed to get to 50% of the national primary vote against a divided field. Trump will not make even that. Congratulations. You found somebody who makes Mitt Romney in 2012 look like Ronald Reagan in 1984.

@ 1273

That actually does make me feel better Thank you. There is still a slim chance that we will be able to save you (and us) from yourselves.

Posted by: Demosthenes at May 26, 2016 12:35 AM (9V0rz)

1278 I don't agree. I don't have to vote for Trump. I don't have to stop criticizing him. I don't have to vote for Hillary. I don't have to stop criticizing her and hoping she winds up in prison somehow.

I don't think Trump will put her there.

Posted by: Evan3457 at May 26, 2016 12:44 AM (XSLU2)

1279 1277 @ 1272

Even Mitt Romney managed to get to 50% of the national primary vote against a divided field. Trump will not make even that. Congratulations. You found somebody who makes Mitt Romney in 2012 look like Ronald Reagan in 1984.
---------
And how many candidates did Romney run against in the primary? Do you really think Romney would have pulled 50% in a field of 17?

Posted by: Vapor at May 26, 2016 12:45 AM (09nQ2)

1280 1274 no one of consequence
"My point? You're acting as if (1) the president (#1 or #2) is the only
actor is this situation with choices and (2) it is somehow moral to
actively vote to support either of these people. "

You've just found a way to ignore the scenario. Do I have to put pages of verbal barriers and fences around the dilemma? I proposed the country became muslim. What if no one comes to your rescue?

1275 Demosthenes

"I'd say those people were sane"

You just found a way to ignore the evidence you had and say, "gee, anybody might do anything so anyone who says anything might do anything else."

Those extra one million are real people.

We are all far from being able to control what our candidates will do once we elect them.

Are you going to take an additional risk with those one million people in addition to what we already run with any candidate?

Posted by: Terrible, America, Terrible at May 26, 2016 12:47 AM (GyTPW)

1281 I really don't understand this argument. Yeah, Hillary sucks...but so does Trump. It's not about our egos, it's about disliking that he's running simply to burnish his own. He's not qualified, doesn't know anything about the job or the policies he'd supposedly push, or the ideology he purports to support.

It seems like because he's enjoyed a bump in the polls, certain people are now Trump curious again. But the same problems exist with this candidate that existed before- because he MIGHT have a shot of winning, suddenly that makes him palatable (or should)? Screw that. I'm not voting for either one of them, because I don't think either are suited for the job. I refuse to vote for this charlatan simply to spite Clinton, because that would be signing off on this charade and the con he's running on everybody. No thanks.

Posted by: NeverTrump at May 26, 2016 01:01 AM (UKRoL)

1282 @ 1279

He ran against 11 others. Comparable enough. And yes, I think he would have broken 50% if his field had been a few candidates larger. Trump, meanwhile, has had a job to break 40%.

@ 1280

"You just found a way to ignore the evidence you had..."

What evidence? All you told me was what your hypothetical candidates said they would do. That's not evidence. That's a campaign promise. And you admit that yourself, when you say "We are all far from being able to control what our candidates will do once we elect them."

I am going off what I know. And here is all I think I can meaningfully discern from your scenario: I am facing a choice between two adherents of Sharia law, each of whom has promised to kill a massive amount of Christians, and each of whom therefore likely will kill at least some. I don't know if they'll kill as many as they say, or less, or more.

I do know, however, that there is a non-zero chance I will be among their victims. And so I will not give my sanction to either one. If I end up going to the charnel house, there is likely nothing I will be able to do to stop it. But I'm not going to vote for one candidate on the theory that I might thereby help to reduce the victim pool, and so might be spared. That's fool's math. That's collaborator's math.

Posted by: Demosthenes at May 26, 2016 01:02 AM (9V0rz)

1283 1282 Demosthenes

The evidence you have is that in addition to being the same they are also different in one respect.

You used verbal tricks to hide this from yourself. "Massive amount of Christians" instead of a number. "At least some" instead of a number. "Many as they say, or less, or more" instead of the number they say.

Then you made it all about yourself. And from that made it a bad thing, a shameful thing, to "reduce the victim pool."

I remember Heinlein said (from memory) "there's a difference between rolling with the punch and being a stoolie for the guards." You're so good and pure you won't even roll with the punch. And thereby keep anyone else from doing so either.

Posted by: Terrible, America, Terrible at May 26, 2016 01:14 AM (GyTPW)

1284 @ 1284

Again, how can I trust the number? One says he will kill one million Christians, the other says he will kill two million Christians. There. I've used your damn numbers. And this is the math you expect me to do -- one million is less than two million, therefore, I must vote for that candidate as the lesser of two evils. Right? That's what you want me to say, isn't it?

Well, I won't say it. The reason I have given so far still holds, as you have said nothing that sticks against it -- I have no reason to trust either of your candidates on the specifics of their plans, but I have a great deal of reason to trust them on the general aspects. I know, from what they say, which of them appears to be the lesser of two evils. But I do not know which will turn out to be the lesser of two evils. And the price to be paid for choosing "right" is still unacceptably high; better not to choose.

But there is another reason. Let me stipulate, for the sake of responding to your example, that I absolutely know that both candidates are completely honest and intend to follow through on their promises to the letter -- killing no more, and no less, than the number they state. I still won't choose between them. I won't choose because there are some choices you can't make and remain fully human afterward. This is a concept that seems to have escaped you utterly.

"Then you made it all about yourself."

You give people a scenario, and ask them WHAT THEY WOULD THINK of people who chose a certain way. That involves an appeal to their reasoning, their emotions, their values. Don't be surprised when my answer tells you what I really think, and as an extension, what I will and won't do.

"And from that made it a bad thing, a shameful thing, to 'reduce the victim pool.'"

Now THIS is a "verbal trick," partly given that this is a description of your thought process, not mine. Mine runs as follows: I will not turn to someone and say, "I agree to give my support to you so that you can kill one million of my fellows, because if I don't, your opponent may get power and kill two million."

Reducing the victim pool in any way that does not involve sanctioning the power is, of course, a noble act -- people who smuggled Jews out of Nazi Germany, for instance, are rightly regarded as heroes. People who agreed to allow the Nazis to take all the people in their city's Street A -- so that they would leave Streets B through G alone -- are regarded somewhat less well. And that's not just because the Nazis usually came back later for B through G, which was an entirely predictable result. It's also because they had the audacity to sacrifice their fellows for supposed safety. There can be no further fellowship with people like that, because they are the vilest kind of traitors.

"You're so good and pure you won't even roll with the punch."

And you're so debased and wretched that you think human lives are a matter of simple math. Oh, thou weak pathetic fool. Oh, thou nascent quisling.

Posted by: Demosthenes at May 26, 2016 01:40 AM (9V0rz)

1285 This is the easiest thing in the world to explain:
When we were betrayed in 2014, we said we would never hold our nose for someone very likely to stab us in the back, just because the Democrat was supposedly (or actually!) worse.

Democrat candidates are Stalin, and we're supposed to eagerly vote for someone only slightly to the right of that?

You have a short memory, Ace.

Posted by: Matt_SE at May 26, 2016 01:43 AM (ECsmS)

1286 Obviously, my last comment should have been directed at 1284, not 1283. I regret the error.

In penance for my mistake, the commenter "Terrible, America, Terrible" has agreed to allow Candidate B to kill seven thousand Christians. If Candidate B should win office, he promises to subtract this number of infidels from the two million he has pledged to kill.

Candidate A, on the other hand, will not, and has in fact offered -- should he win the election -- to kill an additional seven thousand on top of the one million he would have otherwise killed, to make up for not having killed these. Because why should his opponent have all the fun?

Posted by: Demosthenes at May 26, 2016 01:44 AM (9V0rz)

1287 Oh, dear. And there again, I meant to say "1283, not 1284." I guess that's another seven thousand. Fortunately, we have someone on hand who can tell us whether the math is worth it.

Posted by: Demosthenes at May 26, 2016 01:45 AM (9V0rz)

1288 @ 1285

Shorter than you think. Two months ago, he was saying that he would never support Trump, and would in fact vote for Hillary over him, or else not vote at all.

So, if he can't remember what he himself said two months ago, why would you expect him to remember what anyone said two years ago -- that's kind of where I'm going with this.

Ewok dementia is the saddest thing to witness.

Posted by: Demosthenes at May 26, 2016 01:47 AM (9V0rz)

1289 Ace, I usually think your logic is air-tight. This time, I have to respectfully disagree with your case.

If I read you correctly, you present this as a dichotomous decision: Either support trump, then at least hillary can lose OR don't support trump and hillary wins by default. The only proviso being that trump's bloc of support has to basically hold against hillary's nascent bloc. I gather your other option was get out of the game / don't call yourself conservative, which isn't a real option for most of us and certainly not if #neverhillary is the moral injunction.

Some factors which enter into this:

1) What if Hilldog gets indicted for the email server scandal? Is it sufficient if one can advocate strongly for an indictment and make as much hay about this case as possible while not supporting Trump in the hopes of barring her from the presidency? This is less important because no way Obama permits Clinton to get indicted...

2) More important, however: What if one believes the short game is already lost and that the republic is going to take a big hit no matter what one does? I grant it's not a given, but as you acknowledge, the polls numbers of the moment do not reflect what happens when all those Bernie people become the real #nevertrumpers and are forced to choose between Trump and Hiltery. This effect is in addition to the unaddressed demographic issues which contributed to the presidential losses 2008/12; the impending massive drive for latinos to register and lack of voter ID protections to make sure those registrations are all kosher; the potential draw of the LP; the untold skeletons in Trump's closet. All that doesn't include Trumps' own evolving position on immigration and other issues which may lead to an attrition of some of some early conservative support. If you assume the loss of the election and thus Supreme Court is baked into the cake here (the betting money seems to be as well ) what leaves you better positioned for the long game? Is it support for a guy who is nakedly selling us a Tarantino-type revenge-porn narrative which he has no intention of following through on. I.e. beclown ourselves by supporting him?

Regarding my background in being #nevertrump:
I hated Boehner, McConnell and GWB. I loved when Cruz called McConnell a liar on the senate floor and I loved when Rubio got beat for his lousy immigration deal. I have no professional reputation in politics to uphold and I genuinely hope the social-welfare communitarians ("liberals") choke on the 3rd world features of the America they create.

As I see it, your error in thinking was not allowing for the possibility that many of us do not believe that there is still a chance to optimize our shared future by any decision made in the 2016 election aside from down-ballot voting (which is of course KEY). This isn't about my ego, it's about the fact that if we push the button for Trump, it will still very likely have no effect on the demographic grind for 2020, the generational loss of SCOTUS, or any of the other horrible things that you enumerated. And yet, in 2020, who is going to listen to Palin, Christie and Perry's endorsements when they advised us to compromise on so many core gut-check conservative ideas only to Still.Fucking.Lose. In fact, if this doesn't cement their reputations as losers on the national stage, I don't know what will. So no, I won't beclown myself just yet. If Trump is still neck in neck in October-November, I'll of course reconsider. But not in May.

Posted by: derzornmath at May 26, 2016 01:51 AM (7nfma)

1290 Ace, I enjoy your posts daily but this one struck a chord and you couldn't be more right. 1st time I've ever posted here. I don't get the #nevetrump game at this point. The horse is out of the barn and it's time to jump on and ride that damn thing even if we don't like it.

Posted by: 10yrreader1stcommentevr at May 26, 2016 01:54 AM (F2gfl)

1291 I'm not a Trump fan, supported Cruz, still have a lot of doubts about Trump. But I was never a #NevertTrump because I saw early on that there was a good chance we would end up here - either Trump or Hillary, period. As Ace says, easy call.

Posted by: FOAF at May 26, 2016 02:27 AM (p0JMG)

1292 1257
Posted by: Anti Antifa at May 25, 2016 11:00 PM (pRrnq)

Wow, good comment. You nailed it.

Posted by: rickl at May 26, 2016 02:30 AM (sdi6R)

1293 1284 Demosthenes

"price to be paid for choosing "right" is still unacceptably high; better not to choose."

" I still won't choose"

"some choices you can't make and remain fully human"

You are choosing. Every act, voting one way, voting another way, not voting, is a choice, is choosing. You are only choosing.

You have confused voting with approval; sanctioning. "sanctioning the power." As if not voting is the only moral choice because voting is approval.

If the two million dead candidate was already in power, and you could vote to recall him, and the person who would replace him was the one million candidate, what would you do?

Would voting mean approval? Would not voting mean you are free from moral taint because you didn't take positive action?

Is there no such thing as monstrous morality in doing nothing and letting things happen so you don't have to dirty your hands?

"Allow the Nazis"

How does allow come into it with Nazis? They have all the power, you can do nothing.

However, in my scenario, you are allowing if you don't vote, in that you have power to stop not stop (if it comes down to your vote) and you are not stopping, are allowing. Passively, and in your mind, because of that, morally.

Posted by: Terrible, America, Terrible at May 26, 2016 02:49 AM (ueXVD)

1294 This whole debate is reminiscent of Jewish Zealots turning on each other while fighting and progressively losing against the Romans in 70 CE (right before the Temple gets smashed). Also, with the look of Ace's twitter feed I genuinely worry that when things get really bad he might go Charles Johnson on us.

Ace, do you really believe, in your frontal cortex and not just your limbic system, that conservatives, independents, GOPe assholes are going to rally and overcome an unrelenting demographic change which tilts against them even more than 2012? You're willing to go to war on twitter 6 months before the election why? Because you believe there definitely isn't a photo of DJT on pedophile island out there? That there definitely isn't anything untoward in those tax returns? I have seen enough of Trump that I think the odds of those things being found are at least moderate. If WaPo has a team of journalists sicced on him, it's only a matter of time (and I suspect the timing will be judicious to maximize the damage).

There is a long game here, and Trumpton have us in such disarray we're too busy yelling at each other pointlessly to even play it. While we tear each other apart on losing tactics - debating how to repeal ACA, funding executive amnesty, the budget deal, we are getting smoked on strategy. It isn't even close.

Posted by: derzornmath at May 26, 2016 03:22 AM (7nfma)

1295 If you can't #AlwaysTrump, then fucking #NeverHillary

Posted by: trickamsterdam at May 26, 2016 03:33 AM (6aXy5)

1296 "You are choosing. Every act, voting one way, voting another way, not voting, is a choice, is choosing. You are only choosing."

Very well. I thought my meaning was plain, but if you want to be a pedant, I will restate. You have presented us with two options. I am choosing not to choose between them.

* * * * * * * * * *

"You have confused voting with approval; sanctioning."

Not approval. But voting is sanctioning, sometimes in a full and sometimes in a limited sense. You don't get to say "even choosing not to choose is a choice" and then turn around and get to say "I am not sanctioning something by voting for it." Yes, you are. Even when you hold your nose and vote for a terrible candidate, you are saying "Better you than X" -- which is your sanction of their assumption of power, even if they were only the best of a limited menu of bad options. What I am saying, by contrast, is "better nobody than these two." Even though I know that one of the two will have to win, I won't help them do it.

* * * * * * * * * *

"If the two million dead candidate was already in power, and you could vote to recall him, and the person who would replace him was the one million candidate, what would you do?"

I would probably be too busy with my duties in the underground resistance movement to make it to the polls. And that is all the answer your question deserves. "Who would you rather live under, Hitler or Stalin?" may make for an interesting question in a parlor game played between people of limited imagination. But I don't have any taste for it.

* * * * * * * * * *

"Is there no such thing as monstrous morality in doing nothing and letting things happen so you don't have to dirty your hands?"

Of course. An obvious, small-scale example: If I could stop the deaths of ten people by killing a mall shooter before he could open fire, and I chose not to do so simply because I had no desire to kill a man, I would be culpable to some degree for the deaths. In your scenario, on the other hand, by even participating I become complicit in the murder of one million people. Even assuming I could trust that the promises were kept, and even to avoid the murder of two million, that's simply an immoral choice to make. By not participating, I am not complicit.

* * * * * * * * * *

"How does allow come into it with Nazis? They have all the power, you can do nothing."

Have you never heard of Jewish collaborators? Why am I not surprised? You may rectify your historical illiteracy at your own leisure. Perhaps you should start with Chaim Rumkowski...he's the sort of fellow I had in mind when I was typing that.

* * * * * * * * * *

"However, in my scenario, you are allowing if you don't vote..."

No. I am not. According to you, at least a million people are going to die no matter what I do. My choices, therefore, are:

1) Vote for candidate A as the lesser of two evils, thereby sanctioning one million deaths
2) Vote for candidate B, thereby sanctioning two million deaths
3) Refuse to participate, sanctioning neither candidate or their plan of action

Option 2 is obviously a non-starter for both of us, though for different reasons. Because you see this as a simple question of math, you would take Option 1 -- thinking, as you did so, that you were not sanctioning the deaths of one million, but preventing the deaths of an additional million.

However, this is not a simple question of math. Human beings are more than numbers on a ledger. We have souls. We have dignity. And I will not stain my soul or tarnish my dignity by elevating to power someone I knew would use it badly, just because someone else might use it worse if I didn't.

I don't know how to make that point of view comprehensible to you. If you don't get it by now, you never will. It's indicative of a belief in the transcendent nature of reality and the human spirit, a love of the infinite variety and unique natures of men, and a refusal to sacrifice the rights of some for the rights of others. That would be called...let me think now...conservatism.

Posted by: Demosthenes at May 26, 2016 03:47 AM (9V0rz)

1297 Oh, and before I go to bed for the night:

Heinlein would hate you, "Terrible, America, Terrible." You cite one of his quotes in defense of your preposterous position, but you misapply it. You aren't rolling with the punch OR being a stoolie for the guards. You are doing something far worse. You are choosing which set of guards to arm, knowing that some of you will die no matter what. You are helping to place weapons in the hands of your destructors.

The man who said "A generation which ignores history has no past and no future" would be appalled to see the lack of lessons you've learned from the fates of those who have voted in their oppressors previously. No, Heinlein would have nothing but contempt for you.

But then, perhaps he wouldn't like me much either. I've broken another of his precepts. "Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig."

Posted by: Demosthenes at May 26, 2016 03:58 AM (9V0rz)

1298 1296 Demosthenes

"That would be called...let me think now...conservatism."

Obviously false. Many who have not been conservatives have claimed these things for themselves and many appear to have had these things. Further, many conservatives have appeared not to believe in these things. I believe many have said so.

Your posts have simply been full of self-praise. If all I've done is given you an excuse to advertise I'm content with that.

"voting is sanctioning"

Pure assertion. You go on and on there and make no argument to support this, instead just repeat it in different ways.

Further you say "I won't help them" as if voting were also now helping, as if by helping the one million dead candidate to win instead of the two million dead candidate you were in any way helping him kill people.

You brought up WWII.

Would you join the resistance and accept orders to get a job as a Nazi train station clerk in order to help the resistance blow up trains, knowing that to keep the job you would have to fill out paperwork that would help the Nazis move Jews to concentration camps? Would you refuse those orders? You would be helping the Nazis. Would you be sanctioning them?

"By not participating, I am not complicit."

Clearly false, you are complying. I asked, "Would not voting mean you are free from moral taint because you didn't take positive action." Your answer is yes.

Further, by living and therefore working you would be helping the economy which supports the candidates. Sanctioning?

"Who would you rather live under, Hitler or Stalin?...But I don't have any taste for it.
"

You would also be possibly letting people other than yourself live under the worse of the two, without helping.

Notice you are saying you would choose in favor of the resistance against Hitler, and from what you've said in your earlier posts you believe any side could be as bad as Hitler in the future.

Posted by: Terrible, America, Terrible at May 26, 2016 04:25 AM (ueXVD)

1299 1297 Demosthenes

Heinlein probably would have contempt for me, in that I'm a Christian, and he certainly seemed to have contempt for Christians ("religion is a crutch" from Friday from memory, etc.) Though on that basis he wouldn't have only contempt for me, since he expressed pity and sympathy for people in general.

I haven't been annoyed, I've enjoyed this. I hope you have.

In the hypothetical I certainly am choosing which set of guards to arm, and proud of it, man.

You have turned evil into good and good into evil and made impossibly superior personal putdowns constantly.

Posted by: Terrible, America, Terrible at May 26, 2016 04:40 AM (ueXVD)

1300 I said from the start I would never vote for Trump.
Ever.
As in, under any circumstances.
I don't care who the Democrat nominee is.

Most of us #NeverTrump types have been saying this for months, but the TrumpTards insisted on their guy...so don't fucking whine or rant at me when I tell you I'm voting third party this time around.

Trumpkins want to burn it down?
Fine. They didn't think they'd be in the house, did they?

Fuck Trump.
Fuck anyone who supports him.
Fuck anyone who votes for him.

#NeverTrump and that means NEVER.

Posted by: DRayRaven at May 26, 2016 05:34 AM (Qc2Pk)

1301 I'm an active Marine that has been in the Corps almost my entire adult life. Consequently, I am not a pundit or commentator seeking to protect a public professional reputation. I am a #NeverTrump supporter because Trump is spectacularly unfit for office. While i agree that Hillary is also unfit for office, her unfitness doesn't change Trump's unfitness one iota. Trump's instability and immaturity mark him as someone that shouldn't be allowed anywhere near the Oval Office. He has publicly stated on more than one ocasion that he would insist on the military committing war crimes by intentionally targeting the wives and children of terrorist's families. He peddles in ridiculous conspiracy theories such as claiming that Ted Cruz's father was involved in the JFK assassination. He specializes in mean girl tweets about the appearance of opponent's wives and rival candidates (Carly Fiorina). You simply don't give an immature nut-case like this access to the nuclear codes.

While I agree that Trump MIGHT make better Supreme Court nominations, his previous and current statements on the topic don't give me enough confidence in him to override concerns about his bat-guano crazy behavior. He said his ultr-liberal sister would make a great Supreme Court justice. He said that the list of nominees he recently released were simply names he would CONSIDER and that he might ADD to that list. Translation: that list means nothing and is just bood bait to get the bubbas in line. Remember, Dwight Eisenhower (a man whose shoes Trump isn't even fit to lick) gave us Earl Warren. If a man like Eisenhower can blow a Supreme Court pick that bad, how much faith can you have in the ability and dependability of an unstable, unpredictable, nut-job like Trump (whose been a "Republican" for all of five minutes) to do any better?

Do you really believe that a blowhard bully like Trump won't abuse the executive order power any less than Obama? Do you honestly think that if Trump Doesn't get congress to go along with him he won't resort to the end run of executive orders and then point to Obama's example to provide cover from criticism? Trump will continue to erode the Constitution's separation of powers and checks and balances and will find no shortage of "conservative" pundits to excuse his actions. The denigration of the Constitution as an obstacle to "conservative" initiatives (as defined by Trump) will further marginalize respect for, and adherence to, constitutional procedures. Once the Right intellectually joins the Left in disregard for the Constitution where in the political environment will constitutionalists find a place from which to exert any influence? When that happens, how much longer will we have a republic?

Posted by: Joel at May 26, 2016 05:41 AM (N5wlQ)

1302 One thing I would add, my opposition to Trump isn't based in pride, it's principle. I either hold true to what I believe in when it's tough to do so or I have to face the fact that I really don't hold those beliefs at all.

What does it profit a man to gain the whole world but lose his soul, but for Trump??

Posted by: Joel at May 26, 2016 06:07 AM (N5wlQ)

1303 Here's your answer: Not voting for Trump until I'm convinced that he will be substantially less bad than Hillary.

And by less bad I mean "more conservative". But at this point I'd just settle for "more Republican", which is still a stretch for Drumpf.

Posted by: cpurick at May 26, 2016 06:08 AM (M4zwh)

1304 Well, I'll offer my own personal reasons for not voting for Trump, even against a candidate like Hillary, for anyone who finds value in reading them. Doesn't mean I'll vote for Hillary, but at this point I have so much contempt for the Republican party as a whole that I don't feel any emotional attachment to their future prospects anywhere in government, not just the presidency and not just in regard to Trump. I'm not impossible to win back, depending on how the next few years shake out, but I'm never meeting the party halfway again. For those who care and don't mind me being ridiculously long-winded:

*I resent the idea that there's any sort of obligation on the part of those of us typically sympathetic to the Republican party to support any particular Republican candidate, even a conventional, sane candidate. Trump, in fact, is not the only candidate from the 2016 Republican primary who I planned on not voting for were they the general election candidate. That list, for me, also included John Kasich, Marco Rubio, Jeb Bush, Mike Huckabee, Rick Santorum, Chris Christie, and Ben Carson now that I know better. Some of those guys I even like, but ruled them out because Ace and Drew won me over with their anti-GOPe talk. I stopped supporting them on principal, or in Carson's case because he has shown an increasingly tenuous grasp on reality. Trump is the only one on my Nope list whose victory would have me reconsidering my affiliation with the party and the coalition that supports it going into the future, but none of them have any sort of claim on my support. Now, I'll grant that news developments over the election cycle could change my perspective between then and now, maybe, conceivably even towards Trump, but if the election were today, nope to all of the above.
It would never have occurred to me to insist that an anti-McCain Republican had an obligation to support him in '08. I regret voting for McCain myself, as I've come to see his character in a new light. If a Republican, for whatever smoking-the-stuff-Ben-Carson-gave-him reasoning, saw Reagan as unworthy of his vote, that would be his prerogative to withhold it. I assumed until 2016 that most Americans, especially when thinking soberly, agreed with this sentiment, even if they wished people chose otherwise. Now being faced with a flurry of unprecedented "get in line" demands, I have one more reason to reevaluate my past assessments (or perhaps, assumptions) of the moral character of the Republican coalition. I also have no additional incentive to incline myself to compromise for the sake of party unity that I didn't believe in as a moral imperative half a year ago, when i still mostly liked the party. We can invoke "for the future of our country" arguments, but at this point the future of our country just exists inside our heads (My fears about Obama were along the lines of "socialist ideologue", the reality of "corporate crony sellout" hadn't crossed my mind, but seems preferable).
*Would rather have 4 more crap years with a chance for a decent candidate at the end of it than a guaranteed 8 crap years, with the high likelihood of the right-ward pendulum swing of the electorate being used up on this clown show. Assuming I'm not permanently indifferent to the success or failure of the Republican party by that point.
*I find both candidates morally repugnant. Due to personal experience, I'm more viscerally put off by the sort of Trump psychological profile, where there isn't the sense of shame to try to hide his awfulness. I don't think he could even feign the moral reasoning of an average person who experiences things like empathy for the people around them. I also feel more personally morally responsible for the failings of the Republican party than the Democratic party.
*Hillary has obviously shown herself to be a major national security concern, but she also is going to be under particular scrutiny because of this. That may apply to Trump as well, since nobody half-sensible trusts him on anything. But I wouldn't trust Trump not to casually drop vital national security secrets for an applause line in a stump speech. I don't see how either candidate comes out well on this point.
*My primary interest in politics is in anti-authoritarianism, and at least in rhetoric Trump represents a shift toward authoritarianism in the Republican party. If Republicans are just the Cool Ranch flavor of American authoritarianism, I see no incentive to support them over Democrats.
If we assume that the push towards left-authoritarianism in the Western European democracies is a good proxy for how far the Democrats could reasonably go in the U.S., then if I'm not being hyperbolic, while that's a future that saddens me it's not a future that terrifies me. When I think of a proxy for Trump's government, I think Hugo Chavez's Venezuela, which does terrify me. Granted that could all just be signaling or just natural bluster, and I could certainly envision a Trump candidacy where, like second term Obama, he kinda gives up on trying to push anything that seems like it'd be work through the legislature, and just spends his time schmoozing with the powerful (which will probably be mostly the elements of the careerist GOPe who backed him immediately), and basically just keeps the seat warm in the White House.
But even so, we've definitely seen how much of the awfulness of the Obama era isn't so much things he directly has done, but reactions to the perception his presidency created that the far-left was politically ascendant, which in turn mobilized the social justice militants, much in the same way that the perception of Trump's ascendance has mobilized an army of internet dude-bros with Tyler Durden avatars and strong opinions about the Jews that most of us never recognized as part of the American right. Obama certainly deliberately signaled to the far-left, but I doubt he was imagining safe spaces and headmates when he did so.
*I don't buy that Trump support represents an insurgency of politically disenfranchised poor whites. I wouldn't outright say this theory is false, but I would say it's not exactly clear from the data ( http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-mythology-of-trumps-working-class-support/ ). I tend to think it's at least as likely that he represents an insurgency of the shallow, tuned out, and entertainment-worshiping.
Not saying that accounts for all of his support by any means, some I'm sure was from "Fuck it, I'll try anything to get that border wall" folks, among others. The fact that data is showing that his primary voters are mostly people who usually only vote in general elections (for Republicans mostly, so they are already a part of our too small base), but came out just for Trump in the primary ( https://www.yahoo.com/news/data-backs-argument-trump-not-140041120.html ), supports this.
Two former Predator cast members won governorships in solidly Democrat states running as Republicans and Independents, didn't mean anything significant about the political demographics of either state. Now, my speculation isn't necessarily better than anyone else's, but I'm at least aware it's speculation. I see so many on the right jumping to unsubstantiated conclusions on all sorts of topics that it's very important for us to get right, and not bothering to second guess.
We on the right have had to deal with a few odd situations recently, mostly caused by the baby boom of the Millennial generation. We all were pretty shocked by Obama's 2012 reelection and the speed with which gay marriage and increasing secularism became the default, but I think we (and the left as well, though they still have the luxury to be wrong) read way to much into this and saw it as a permanent culture shift. It may in fact be, or it may be just another typical 8-12 year cycle as opposition party (maybe feeling nastier than usual due to some unique factor like the rise of the internet and social media, the constraints in playing opposition to a historical presidential candidate, whatever), or it may also be an echo of the Baby Boomer era, where it causes a strong leftist shift, but then comes back to Reagan. I tend to think Millennials are too psycologically dependent on the fruits of capitalism, moreso than any previous generation, to indulge socialism past the point it costs them personally.
Regardless, I remember reading several shit-your-pants articles about Obama's crazy state-of-the-art data and voter turnout operation in 2012, and yet during this time period Republicans owned midterm elections, governorships, the house, and kept control of the senate. Maybe the presidency will keep being tough for Republicans due to demographic shifts, but I'll worry about that when I see it happen. And I'll buy the narratives about what Trump's support means and what the GOP needs to prioritize because of it when I have more than anecdote and speculation to work with. I'm done with the right's constant, shrieky hysteria mode, and have moved on to melancholic introspection mode.
*Going forward, I'm taking a cue from Ross Douthat, and dismissing out of hand the assertion that the Republican base that voted for Trump is more conservative than I am just because I lean a bit libertarian on social issues. My heresies are far fewer than Trump's, both ideologically and in terms of personal conduct. The idea of anyone who voted for Trump caring about the institution of marriage will forever ring hollow.
*As the social justice warriors were the best advertising that the right could ask for, Trump has been the best thing to happen to Obama's opinion polling.

I'm already typing up a novel here, sorry about that. I'll end it soon. Personally, I no longer have that sense of hope of seeing my aspirations for this country fulfilled. Ace talks about this idea as an important aspect of political participation a lot, in terms of the GOPe versus conservatives, and I agreed with him but tended to see that as a surmountable problem in the near future, especially in light of Boehner's resignation, and frankly, as suggested in my comments about what I think accounts for his primary election support, I do think Trump enthusiasm may likely be a flash in the pan fad that people get bored of maybe even before we get to November. But it's one that has made me doubt a lot that I took for granted about the Republican coalition.
As I described it to a friend "I'm like a Japanese citizen who has just witnessed the God Emperor defeated by a foreign power, and now Hirohito's coming up to me, saying 'Hey, okay, maybe I'm not the omnipotent sort of God Emperor, but I can still do these totally wicked Wolverine claws from my hands. So, ya know, how about maybe like... a little bit of bowing and kneeling here?' 'No! Fuck your Wolverine claws!'"
Following politics has been a pretty big hobby for me since childhood, so I can't imagine going cold turkey right now. But, assuming nothing happens between now and November to assuage my disillusionment, I'm gonna be following bloggers like Ace in the same way I do Red Letter Media, where I don't actually care about any of the movies they talk about, but I'm watching because I like the personalities.

Posted by: reform highlander at May 26, 2016 07:21 AM (xf3KI)

1305 I feel for those who have a public reputation to protect. Well, most of them I don't give a toss about, but I feel for the small scraps of decency in their shriveled hearts. As for me, I'll sit out for the first time since I could vote.

Posted by: evergreen at May 26, 2016 07:32 AM (WyNGG)

1306 RE: "Yeah, this isn't an actual position. You're in the realm of
abstraction."

Well, yeh, it is. People have chosen *neither* of two evils for many many centuries, and not in the realm of "abstraction" but in the world of history and reality. And we will continue to do so.

RE: "You choose the rioters."

Oh, if I don't choose to vote for Hillary, by your "reason", I've voted *against* her and chosen Trump.

So I have the privilege of choosing both Hillary and Trump by voting for neither. ; > )

Posted by: Igor at May 26, 2016 07:45 AM (hyZLL)

1307 RE: "I would suggest that electing hillary is more likely to produce the
results you mention."

That's interesting speculation, but I don't think you've been watching or reading Trump for the past 25 years.

Regardless, I'll take my speculation over yours -- I trust myself to be coldly objective far more than you, after all.

RE: "And so you would simply surrender this election and count on a positive
outcome 8 years from now after Hillary has a chance to implement amnesty
and stack the supreme court?"

Interesting -- that's precisely what I heard eight long years ago when I knew that Obama would beat McCain like a drum.

And here we are. Hopefully we will have an opposition party eight years from now -- but if we don't, we will be going through just this same exchange.

Far far more important than Not Electing The Latest Democrat Horror [they're *forever* after all] is having a conservative opposition party.

RE: "I know you wanted another candidate (so did I) and I'm sorry thats
not the case. These are the circumstances we find ourselves in however
and as conservatives we have to deal in reality."

Yes, and dealing with reality means that we must acknowledge that we will be hearing "I, Hillary Rodham Clinton, do solemnly swear . . . " in January of 2017.

And we will continue to hear those words from Democrat after Democrat, until we have a conservative opposition party.

That is reality -- it is a reality that has been pointed out for quite a few years now too. The person I see who is attempting to deny reality and threaten and bully people into voting for Trotsky over Lenin is not me, and not the rest of the crew who have already figured this game out long ago.

RE: "If the GOP
cannot defeat a candidate as weak as Hillary than I see no reason for it
to even exist much less to give it my support in 4-8 years."

Yes, that's what many said eight years ago, too. They just have a different trajectory-of-decision, it seems, from you. So I'll see you on the other side eight years from now, and we'll be allies.

Posted by: Igor at May 26, 2016 07:58 AM (hyZLL)

1308 1300 I said from the start I would never vote for Trump.
Ever.
As in, under any circumstances.
I don't care who the Democrat nominee is.

Most of us #NeverTrump types have been saying this for months, but the TrumpTards insisted on their guy...so don't fucking whine or rant at me when I tell you I'm voting third party this time around.

Trumpkins want to burn it down?
Fine. They didn't think they'd be in the house, did they?

Fuck Trump.
Fuck anyone who supports him.
Fuck anyone who votes for him.

#NeverTrump and that means NEVER.
-----------
Thank you and your nevertrump whining little bitch comrades for enlightening me on what a pathetic excuse of a party this has become.

My vote for Trump will be the last I ever cast for a GOP candidate after 20 years supporting you assholes. Unless he comes back for a second term in which case I'll vote Trump again. Other than that I think I'm done voting period.

So fuck YOU tough guy. Fuck you to hell.

Posted by: Vapor at May 26, 2016 07:59 AM (09nQ2)

1309 1307 RE: "I would suggest that electing hillary is more likely to produce the
results you mention."

That's interesting speculation, but I don't think you've been watching or reading Trump for the past 25 years.

Regardless, I'll take my speculation over yours -- I trust myself to be coldly objective far more than you, after all.

RE: "And so you would simply surrender this election and count on a positive
outcome 8 years from now after Hillary has a chance to implement amnesty
and stack the supreme court?"

Interesting -- that's precisely what I heard eight long years ago when I knew that Obama would beat McCain like a drum.

And here we are. Hopefully we will have an opposition party eight years from now -- but if we don't, we will be going through just this same exchange.

Far far more important than Not Electing The Latest Democrat Horror [they're *forever* after all] is having a conservative opposition party.

RE: "I know you wanted another candidate (so did I) and I'm sorry thats
not the case. These are the circumstances we find ourselves in however
and as conservatives we have to deal in reality."

Yes, and dealing with reality means that we must acknowledge that we will be hearing "I, Hillary Rodham Clinton, do solemnly swear . . . " in January of 2017.

And we will continue to hear those words from Democrat after Democrat, until we have a conservative opposition party.

That is reality -- it is a reality that has been pointed out for quite a few years now too. The person I see who is attempting to deny reality and threaten and bully people into voting for Trotsky over Lenin is not me, and not the rest of the crew who have already figured this game out long ago.

RE: "If the GOP
cannot defeat a candidate as weak as Hillary than I see no reason for it
to even exist much less to give it my support in 4-8 years."

Yes, that's what many said eight years ago, too. They just have a different trajectory-of-decision, it seems, from you. So I'll see you on the other side eight years from now, and we'll be allies.

Posted by: Igor at May 26, 2016 07:58 AM (hyZLL)

Nah. I'm done. There won't be any reconciliation. Do it yourself.

Posted by: Vapor at May 26, 2016 08:04 AM (09nQ2)

1310 RE: "There won't be any reconciliation."

"Emotion" does that. ; > )

Posted by: Igor at May 26, 2016 08:11 AM (hyZLL)

1311 1310 RE: "There won't be any reconciliation."

"Emotion" does that. ; > )

I said the same when I left the democratic party over 20 years ago. I meant it then and I mean it now. There is no place in the GOP for me or my family anymore. And you can bet I'll take as many others with me as I can. It all adds up ya know ;-)

Enjoy your Hillary.

Posted by: Vapor at May 26, 2016 08:28 AM (09nQ2)

1312 What a tour de force of stupidity. You still have not learned that left wing Republicans are more dangerous than left wing Democrats. Hilary's liberal agenda will be opposed by virtually everyone in the conservative movement, in no small part because many prominent media "conservatives" have a selfish monetary incentive to oppose her. But as we are currently witnessing, when Trump veers far left virtually the entire GOP political/media establishment marches mindlessly in lockstep.

Just as McConnell has been more effective than Reid at facilitating the vile Obama agenda, Trump will be able to push the left wing agenda further than Clinton because there will be no opposition. The Democrats will not oppose him as he advocates their wet dreams, and the Ace-style partisan sycophants will submissively capitulate to the guy with the "R" after his name...just like now.

Radio silent? Do not hold your breath, Forrest..#NeverTrump

Posted by: esther at May 26, 2016 08:30 AM (qUe1t)

1313 The main goal of #NeverTrump right now is the unrealistic hope that after Trump loses things will go back to the way they were,

Posted by: Taco Town at May 26, 2016 08:39 AM (vSK8c)

1314 I have what I believe is a great way of showing this. English follows the way of saying it in ASL and that's like super-Italian hand motioning.

There are all these conservatives out there *waves arm like an Indian showing the landscape all around* and you have the GOPe, a precious little gold birdcage, *cup the other hand and upturn it for a bird cage within the broad landscape* boink Their closed guild. Resolutely non-representing everybody who is left out.

I never had representation. Not once.

Go ahead and sit it out you sanctimonious shitsasses. I don't need you the exact same as you never needed me.

Who wants to be in either stinking ass club?

Their conservative guild has always been so infuriatingly conservative!

Except when it comes to interacting with all those conservatives, the vast majority of them, speaking to them, slapping them around, yelling, going into caps, calling names (Trumptard above) shutting out from the process as in Colorado and other states, being exclusive, insisting their judgement is better, than everyone else's, and doing what progressives did that drove them out of our lives, insist on whom we must hate.

Until now I always thought GOPe were interested in representing conservative voters. But clearly they are not. They actually say to their readers STFU and GTFO and DLTDHYOTWO and all the rest indicating they really don't like nearly anybody.

No-Trumps are doing the exact sa ... Wha.. Wazzat? Oh, Ha Cyndi Lauper's True Colors is playing.

Your true colors, No-Trumpettes, eh, this game isn't so fun, no-Trump people, true colors, let them bleed, let them run, let your freak flag fly. It's all very cathartic. Fling your true colors all over the walls. I don't give a shit what you do or don't do.

Posted by: bour3 at May 26, 2016 08:41 AM (FZsMs)

1315 Let it burn, I don't give a fuck anymore. You guys bought it, you can deal with it.

Posted by: digitalbrownshirt at May 26, 2016 08:43 AM (ROUi8)

1316 RE: "Enjoy your Hillary."

I will enjoy her as much as I have Obama -- it is a pity that the eight years of him were not spent productively by the leaders of the Republican Party. Many many people tried to tell them . . .

RE: "I meant it then and I mean it now. There is no place in the GOP for me or
my family anymore. "

I'm certain you do -- just as I did eight years ago, though for different reasons of course.

RE: "And you can bet I'll take as many others with me as I
can."

A good start has already been made -- as demonstrated by the outcomes of the last two Presidential elections.

I think the likelihood is that we'll have a real third-party eight years from now -- which will be about a 30-50 year development period.

It's a pity. We needed a conservative opposition party and the outcomes of not having that -- 30-50 years in the wilderness -- seem inevitable.

Posted by: Igor at May 26, 2016 08:57 AM (hyZLL)

1317 RE: "The main goal of #NeverTrump right now is the unrealistic hope that after Trump loses things will go back to the way they were . . . "

I can't speak for others, of course, but far far from it, considering that the Republican Party nominated a liberal like McCain and a liberal like Romney and now a liberal like Trump.

I hope that the Republican Party's leaders will pursue its stated values -- individual liberty, limited government, free markets, private property rights, and adherence to the Constitution -- and become a conservative opposition party. Obviously, since Trump values none of those things, if elected the Republican Party will move even farther away from those values.

So no, *not* "the way they were" at all.

Posted by: Igor at May 26, 2016 09:02 AM (hyZLL)

1318 Well this is quite the interesting comments thread. Ace, thank you for finally coming around to the realization that it's #neverHillary that matters. It sucks that your preferred candidate didn't get the nod and you'll have to support Trump. But it is what it is, and it's time to move forward and work towards stopping Hillary. For all the other #neverTrump clingers still trying to justify why they're sticking with the "never" stance: Grow up. You lost this one, but now it's time to suck it up, plug your nose, and try and keep Hillary out of the White House. There's no way Trump will be worse than Hillary. She will actively work for four years to disadvantage Republicans and conservatives in order to secure a second term. Trump, on the other hand, would be working to strengthen their positions. It's time to accept that the only way to stop Hillary is to do what you can to get Trump in the White House. You'll have another chance to get rid of him in 2020, you can begin the work needed to replace him after November. But for now, focus on what's really important: #neverHillary.

Posted by: pete at May 26, 2016 09:03 AM (meg+g)

1319 My first vote was for Richard Nixon. He was the better choice but I have regretted that vote ever since. I am never going to regret another vote. NeverTrump.

Posted by: Mark at May 26, 2016 09:35 AM (hY5C1)

1320 1318 Well this is quite the interesting comments thread. Ace, thank you for finally coming around to the realization that it's #neverHillary that matters. It sucks that your preferred candidate didn't get the nod and you'll have to support Trump. But it is what it is, and it's time to move forward and work towards stopping Hillary. For all the other #neverTrump clingers still trying to justify why they're sticking with the "never" stance: Grow up. You lost this one, but now it's time to suck it up, plug your nose, and try and keep Hillary out of the White House. There's no way Trump will be worse than Hillary. She will actively work for four years to disadvantage Republicans and conservatives in order to secure a second term. Trump, on the other hand, would be working to strengthen their positions. It's time to accept that the only way to stop Hillary is to do what you can to get Trump in the White House. You'll have another chance to get rid of him in 2020, you can begin the work needed to replace him after November. But for now, focus on what's really important: #neverHillary.

Posted by: pete at May 26, 2016 09:03 AM (meg+g)

Well said Pete but these GOP nevertrump pajama boys are as delusional as bernies boys. I'm afraid reason is lost on them. They are driven by emotion and fear. "Trump is da debil" doncha know.

Posted by: Vapor at May 26, 2016 09:37 AM (09nQ2)

1321 RE: "They are driven by emotion and fear."

Heh.

Said the man who's indulged in several little temper tantrums right on this very thread. ; > )

Posted by: Igor at May 26, 2016 09:46 AM (hyZLL)

1322 Said the man who's indulged in several little temper tantrums right on this very thread. ; > )

Posted by: Igor at May 26, 2016 09:46 AM (hyZLL)

No temper tantrum here. I made rational and reasoned arguments and was attacked and insulted.

You were expecting flowers?

Posted by: Vapor at May 26, 2016 09:53 AM (09nQ2)

1323 "But the choice is between Hillary Clinton -- a fucking psychopathic monster, liar, and caudilla-in-waiting -- and Donald Trump, a narcissistic buffoon."

I resent that Ace is now doing to #NeverTrump people precisely what he complained about when he was #NeverTrump: making arguments about them and their egos (or whatever), rather than sticking to the actual choice. (The above is about the actual choice, but he has a lot in this post that is basically saying "shut up and get in line"--something he would not countenance for himself.)

I agree with him that "reality is seldom pretty, and it is never ideal." Nevertheless, there are all kinds of reasons besides having a high opinion of oneself for not picking either of these horribles.

For that matter believing one's pick makes all the difference is having a rather high opinion of oneself. I never had a candidate who was "ideal," but I chose Cruz among the less than ideal. Cruz lost.

Why, then, is it imperative that I (personally) make a choice between these two? Is my power as an individual going to become omnipotent suddenly, despite the previous demonstration that it is not? And if that is the case--that my choice is critical to anyone but me, that it is all about "the future we share," as Ace puts it--then I can reject both. The choice instead becomes "between Hillary Clinton -- a fucking psychopathic monster, liar, and caudilla-in-waiting -- and Donald Trump, a narcissistic buffoon"...and neither.

Because the odds my choosing neither will stop both of them are not significantly different from the odds that my endorsing either of them decides the coin toss.

Posted by: Nicholas Kronos at May 26, 2016 10:02 AM (NgMqF)

1324 1322 Said the man who's indulged in several little temper tantrums right on this very thread. ; > )

Posted by: Igor at May 26, 2016 09:46 AM (hyZLL)

No temper tantrum here. I made rational and reasoned arguments and was attacked and insulted.

You were expecting flowers?

Posted by: Vapor at May 26, 2016 09:53 AM (09nQ2)

In all fairness Igor your comments have been what I would consider reasonable even though we disagree. I meant no disrespect to you personally. My comments were more in response to DRayRaven and his ilk whose comments were meant to insult not debate or inform.

Posted by: Vapor at May 26, 2016 10:28 AM (09nQ2)

1325 "Oh, if I don't choose to vote for Hillary, by your 'reason', I've voted *against* her and chosen Trump."

Yeah, no. That would only be true if you were, say, a Bernie supporter not voting. Non-voting Bernie supporters (or Bernie supporters who vote 3rd party) are voting for Trump. Non-voting Tru Cons (or Tru Cons who vote 3rd party) are voting for Hillary--and the rioters.

The reason should be obvious even to the habitually obtuse: you are abandoning the meaningful assertion of any interest you may have. No interests lie with electing Hillary. But, even if we stipulate to your absurdly cynical take on Trump, i.e., that all the things he says that you don't like are things he's probably telling the truth about and all the things he says that you do like he's probably lying about, you can only conclude rationally that some of your interests *may* lie in voting for Trump. Ace has already explained this amply. I'll put it another way: sure death versus possible death. A rational man picks the latter when those are his only two options. A dumb-ass lifts his chin, fancies himself wise, and says, "Ah, but of two evils, choose neither." And then he dies. Cause he's a dumb-ass who forgot that the real world doesn't give a fuck how high he was up the abstraction latter.

Do you want Hillary's judges, or the ones Trump put on his list? Pick.

Do you want a wall, or do you want more invaders? Pick.

It's simple stuff. I know you can't do it.

Posted by: Anti Antifa at May 26, 2016 10:28 AM (FGto4)

1326 "Just put you ego to the side and remember this election isn't about your ego, it's about America and our shared future."

Nope.

I'm tired of waiting for the GOP to nominate someone who doesn't suck shit out of a dead dog's ass. I'm tired of being told to eat my gruel like a good boy.

Hillary is shite. I don't want Hillary.

Trump is...whatever the fuck Trump is. I don't want Trump either.

I'm going to vote for something I want. I wash my hands of this. If Trump is the fuck-everything candidate in a fuck-everything year, then I claim the right to my own fuck-everything position.

It's not about #NeverTrump. I never believed that movement will last and I still don't. Most of them will apply industrial-grade clothespins to their nose come November, because they will decide that Trump's super-positions contain the hope that he might not suck, but that Hillary will assuredly suck. It will be voting for the hope of not getting your balls shredded, and against the person plugging the shredder in. I understand that. It makes sense.

But I don't feel like it. I'm not joining the circus this year. I'm not getting my hopes up that this time the deeply flawed candidate is going to beat back the electoral math because rage. I'm not joining in together for the big win.

Gary Johnson for President (or whoever the fuck the LP decides on). When the GOP wants my vote, they can come earn it. I live in a state that hasn't gone Republican since Reagan. Trump is not Reagan, so who the fuck are we kidding?

Posted by: JIBBLE BIBBLE ARGLE BARGLE at May 26, 2016 10:45 AM (lyvVo)

1327 Another take on it by Van der Luen:

http://tinyurl.com/h9d5jbp

Posted by: Shanks for the memory at May 26, 2016 10:56 AM (9HNfr)

1328 There remain many issues which could be profitably debated ... elsewhere, and with other participants. One might observe, for example, that states and institutions are ephemeral, while principles, and, if you like, souls, are eternal. One might very profitably observe that the arguments for ceasing to oppose Trump and Trumpism: now, not in July, not in November: are entirely negative cases, doubtless because there is no positive case to be made for the little man. One might well note that the argument that one ought to put aside principle for expediency has a long history which has never ended well: from "It is expedient that one man die for the people" to the late Roman republic and the days of the Second Triumvirate, from von Papen's failed schemes to "Better Hitler Than Blum!" to the French cabinet's rejection in 1940 of Winston's offer of union. Yes, even when the claim is that an existential threat justifies the expediency: as Winston said, those who chose dishonor over war got war as well all the same.

But there is no point in essaying this until one question is answered. What I wish to know is this.

It seems it was only the other month - for the excellent reason that it was only the other month - that it was announced that the fever swamps would be drained, by moderators' actions, when a thread descended into argumentum ad hominem and vulgar abuse.

Has this, too, changed with the change in the prevailing wind? Has it, like an Obaman, Clintonian, or Trumpian promise (remember the tax returns?), reached its unspoken expiration date? Has the doctrine of expediency, er, trumped this principle as well, so that it is now, in Nixonian terms, "inoperative?"

I think we very much ARE owed an answer to that question, at least.

Posted by: Markham Shaw Pyle at May 26, 2016 11:25 AM (WlkUc)

1329 It's your house, so this is kind of weird. But welcome back, Ace. Don't be a stranger.

Posted by: phunctor at May 26, 2016 11:27 AM (CKGil)

1330 One final note for now, as I await the answer I have requested. Was it not just this sort of argument, that the alternative is existentially dangerous, which gave us the Beltway Permanent Fusion Party Congress, Boehner, Mitch & Co.; and thus got us into this mess? That being so, how can the argument for the Todd Akin of 2016 be made with a straight face and without intellectual dishonesty?

Posted by: Markham Shaw Pyle at May 26, 2016 11:29 AM (WlkUc)

1331 RE: "No temper tantrum here."

"Thank you and your nevertrump whining little bitch comrades for
enlightening me on what a pathetic excuse of a party this has become.

My vote for Trump will be the last I ever cast for a GOP candidate
after 20 years supporting you assholes. Unless he comes back for a
second term in which case I'll vote Trump again. Other than that I think
I'm done voting period."

Hmmmm . . . it appears we are also defining the words "emotion" and "temper tantrum" differently!

RE: "You were expecting flowers?"

Not at all.

I don't even expect dispassionate reason from those accusing others of being "emotional" and unreasonable!

RE: "In all fairness Igor your comments have been what I would consider
reasonable even though we disagree. I meant no disrespect to you
personally."

I understand and I've appreciated the exchange. I don't take any of this personally, even when other commenters wish I would! I'm a happy woman, and if the Hebrews survived their stint in Babylonian captivity, I expect I will too. Or won't, but then I'll be dead.

Posted by: Igor at May 26, 2016 12:16 PM (hyZLL)

1332 "Oh, if I don't choose to vote for Hillary, by your 'reason', I've voted *against* her and chosen Trump."

RE: "Yeah, no."

Yeh, yep.

You just don't like the consistency applied to your little aphorism "not voting for my guy is a vote for the other guy." Fine -- then my not voting for the other guy is a vote for your guy. ; > )

RE: "you are
abandoning the meaningful assertion of any interest you may have."

Not at all -- my interest is not in Not Electing Evil Liberal Democrats. My interest is in having a conservative opposition party -- that is far more important than Not Electing Evil Liberal Democrats or in Electing Evil Liberal Republicans Because They Are Not Evil Liberal Democrats.

You and I just don't share the same interests, is all. You're fine with Electing Evil Liberal Republicans who don't value individual liberty, free markets, limited government, private property rights, or adherence to the Constitution. You're fine with having a Slightly Less Liberal Wing of the Washington Party who don't serve as a conservative opposition party to the party of the Democrats. I'm not fine with that.

Our values are antithetical and so it stands to reason that we will not choose to vote for the same people.

RE: "sure death versus possible death."

This is another example of our antithetical values -- I've never thought death was the absolutely worst thing on earth.

RE: "A dumb-ass lifts his chin, fancies
himself wise, and says, "Ah, but of two evils, choose neither." And then
he dies. Cause he's a dumb-ass who forgot that the real world doesn't
give a fuck how high he was up the abstraction latter."

Sadly for some, my ideals are lived out in the real world, in concrete reality -- which will mean that when I go into the voting booth my concrete and pragmatic act will be to not pull the lever for Trump. *Your* concrete and pragmatic act will be to pull the lever for Trump -- in keeping with your abstract ideals, which are antithetical to mine.

I am pleased to be thought a dumb-ass as defined by Anti Antifa, since I know Anti Antifa's ideals and values now. His "dumb-ass" is my "courageous." His "wise" is my "foolish" just as his "foolish" is my "wise." It would make me quite nervous if Anti Antifa thought me *not* a dumb-ass.

That's the chasm in values, principles, and foundational worldview between those like Anti Antifa and those like Igor.

Igor does not vote for Trotsky over Lenin. Anti Antifa does. Those two choices are revealing, and it's understandable that neither Igor nor Anti Antifa respects the ideas, values, or principles of the other.

Posted by: Igor at May 26, 2016 12:30 PM (hyZLL)

1333 Welcome back to reality, Ace!!!

2 months later than it hadda be, the handwriting was on teh wall on March 15, but better late than never.

Keep Hillary out and work to keep Trump on the rails, and to limit any damage if he goes off them--it's the only rational path..

Posted by: mhjhnsn at May 26, 2016 01:35 PM (FZdvr)

1334 1331�RE: "No temper tantrum here."

Maybe it's a matter of perspective. I can see how you might interpret it that way. To me it was just responding to a very aggressive post in kind. I'm too old to get too worked up about comments. I have more important things to expend my emotional energy on.

The guy was a bully so I lit him up. Maybe not the best choice but it was kinda therapeutic...

Posted by: The kinder gentler Vapor at May 26, 2016 02:21 PM (09nQ2)

1335 Brad Thor has forgotten the first law of summoning: don't open any gates to Hell that you don't know how to close.

Nice little bone castle you got there Brad. You ever seen pink mist?

Posted by: L. H. Oswald at May 26, 2016 02:34 PM (5VvBx)

1336 @ 1299

This is all of what you said that I feel I need to answer.

"In the hypothetical I certainly am choosing which set of guards to arm, and proud of it, man."

Chaim Rumkowski couldn't have put it better.

"You have turned evil into good and good into evil..."

I have refused to choose between two great evils. You are willing to accommodate evil.

"...and made impossibly superior personal putdowns constantly."

But I AM superior to you. And proud of it, quim.

Posted by: Demosthenes at May 26, 2016 11:39 PM (9V0rz)

1337 @ 1325

"Do you want Hillary's judges, or the ones Trump put on his list? Pick."

I would rather have the ones on Trump's list. Convince me he'll pick them.

"Do you want a wall, or do you want more invaders? Pick."

I'd rather have a wall. Convince me he'll build it.

And while you're at it, convince me he'll eliminate the deficit, reduce the debt, protect the unborn, protect gun rights, reduce federal interference ion state affairs, etc. Because you see, it's not just about picking on the basis of what people say. It's about what you think they will do. Ace used to realize that about Trump, before he bent down yesterday and started sucking orange cock.

You're walking down the street, and pass a dark alley. There are two pervert-looking creeps in there, standing next to their vans. One says "Get in my van, and I'll rape you." The other says "Get in my van, and I'll give you some candy."

The smart choice is to get in neither van, not to go after the candy on the off-chance the second creep is telling you the truth. If you're too stupid to see that, you're past all help.

Posted by: Demosthenes at May 26, 2016 11:46 PM (9V0rz)

1338 I believe Trump would be a very bad President. But I would vote for him over Clinton or almost any Democrat for this reason...

P.J. O'Rourke said that unlike Trump, Clinton is "wrong within normal parameters". That makes her far more dangerous. The wrongness she advocates is the consensus wrongness of the "respectable" Left. She would be supported and and enabled in that wrongness by the Democrats in Congress (probably a majority, if she wins), plus the entire media/academic complex. She would have no trouble filling the executive and judicial branches with like-minded fools and villains.

Trump would meet ferocious opposition at every step from Democrats and the media/academy, and only conditional, skeptical support from Republicans.

Posted by: Rich Rostrom at May 26, 2016 11:48 PM (YkV15)

1339 Hey everybody, we've made you this GREAT shit sandwich. It's toasted and everything, and we've even trimmed the extra crusty parts. It's the BEST shit sandwich you're ever gonna see - come on now, don't be telling me you ain't gonna eat this shit sandwich - it's *so* much better than the shit sandwich that *other* person made. Our's is HUGE, and you're going to just have to eat it because that's the shit sandwich we're serving right up. Don't be thinking about dining in some third partyrestaurant now ... it's UNAmerican of you to not eat *our* shit sandwich, dammit.

Posted by: thrill at May 27, 2016 01:36 AM (cDdZo)

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