A Trade School called, Appropriately Enough, The Apprentice School [CBD]

Founded in 1919 at Newport News Shipbuilding, The Apprentice School does something very simple; it teaches people how to build warships, while giving them the equivalent of a college education. One little difference -- the graduates aren't saddled with huge debt, and have guaranteed jobs to boot. And those jobs aren't making cute designs in coffee foam...they actually know how to build things.

Even the NY Times has some nice things to say.....

NEWPORT NEWS, Va. -- With its gleaming classrooms, sports teams and even a pep squad, the Apprentice School that serves the enormous Navy shipyard here bears little resemblance to a traditional vocational education program.
And that is exactly the point. While the cheerleaders may double as trainee pipe fitters, electricians and insulators, on weekends they're no different from college students anywhere as they shout for the Apprentice School Builders on the sidelines.
But instead of accumulating tens of thousands of dollars in student debt, Apprentice School students are paid an annual salary of $54,000 by the final year of the four-year program, and upon graduation are guaranteed a job with Huntington Ingalls Industries, the military contractor that owns Newport News Shipbuilding.

My plumber is an intelligent, college-educated man who has a booming business that does not include 4:00am drain-snaking. For that you call Roto-Rooter. He is at his kids' Little League games, and I don't recall ever seeing his truck on the road during weekends.

He lamented to me recently that he cannot find a young kid to learn his trade. Nobody wants to be a plumber making $250k, when they could be web designers making $35k!

Posted by: Open Blogger at 10:00 AM

Comments

(Jump to bottom of comments)

1 What work does your plumber do if not snaking drains?
Most guys do their own minor plumbing work
Who can afford to hire someone who charges more than 1000$ per day ?

Posted by: Bubba at March 19, 2016 09:01 AM (jXM9O)

2 If you call a plumber to snake a drain you are doing it wrong.

It's amazing how little most people know today and defer to "experts" for the most minor tasks.

Posted by: JackStraw at March 19, 2016 09:03 AM (r1Ygw)

3 Newt Gingrich did a special on Fox News talking about this very thing. Businesses are crying for carpenters, plumbers, and electricians and just can not get them.

One thing that hampers them is the trade unions which limit the number of members.

Posted by: Vic-we have no party at March 19, 2016 09:03 AM (t2KH5)

4 "Nobody wants to be a plumber making $250k"

Ho Ree Shit.

Posted by: Ricardo Kill at March 19, 2016 09:04 AM (x3MHz)

5 LA Trade Tech students actually learn a trade here in Los Angeles. They're in contrast to brainless Brentwood moms who are against vaccination.

Posted by: Horatio Algerythm at March 19, 2016 09:05 AM (gwG9s)

6 Wonder when they'll hire Melissa Click...

to sweep the floors?

Posted by: Hrothgar at March 19, 2016 09:06 AM (wYnyS)

7 Paging Mike Rowe.

Posted by: H.Bosch at March 19, 2016 09:06 AM (iH/w2)

8 Shipbuilders are a different breed of cat...like steelworkers.

I was fortunate to watch the launch of the submarine "Birmingham" at Newport News. As the ropes holding the ship in place were removed I heard singing from below the hull. It was the shipbuilders, singing a song that gave them the correct order for knocking out the supports under the boat.

Sorry for derailing the discussion. Just thought that was neat.

Posted by: creeper at March 19, 2016 09:07 AM (jpMw5)

9 Mike Rowe has talked about this - his TED talk about the loss of appreciation for hard work is so good.

Posted by: Lizzy at March 19, 2016 09:07 AM (NOIQH)

10 One thing that hampers them is the trade unions which limit the number of members.

Posted by: Vic-we have no party at March 19, 2016 09:03 AM (t2KH5)

Aren't trade unions part of the bedrock of the socialist state, comrade?

Posted by: Hrothgar at March 19, 2016 09:08 AM (wYnyS)

11 I'm confused (but not as confused as Hillary). Is this thread only for commenting on the post-related topics and the EMT continues as the - what did Ace call it? - floating open thread (which concept seems to work so well with the Moron Horde)? Or is it Saturday?

Posted by: mindful webworker - 20 Years on the Web at March 19, 2016 09:08 AM (Ak/GS)

12 willowed from last thread

286 grammie winger, watching the fig tree

"Maybe we should all get together and buy him a new rocker for his porch."

That's a great idea!

If someone else organizes it, I shall help fund it. For available amounts of funding.

Posted by: naCly Dog at March 19, 2016 09:09 AM (u82oZ)

13 I met this older woman from a family of plumbers who also owned a plumbing supply business. Ka ching!

Posted by: Bruce With a Wang! at March 19, 2016 09:09 AM (iQIUe)

14 After calling out a plumber to put in a garbage disposal last week, I decided plumber's apprentice is just fine with me. Sign me up. If it was my house, I would have done it myself with the help of youtube. $677 bill.

Posted by: no good deed at March 19, 2016 09:09 AM (GgxVX)

15 Aren't trade unions part of the bedrock of the socialist state, comrade?

Posted by: Hrothgar at March 19, 2016 09:08 AM (wYnyS)

Trade unions artificially inflate the cost of doing buisness.

Posted by: Vic-we have no party at March 19, 2016 09:10 AM (t2KH5)

16 Just thought that was neat.

Posted by: creeper at March 19, 2016 09:07 AM (jpMw5)

That's exactly the kind of institutional knowledge that is lost when a country loses its manufacturing base.

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at March 19, 2016 09:10 AM (Zu3d9)

17 speaking as a chemical engineer who does much of, but not all of my own plumbing i think it requires a lot more skill to be a plumber than a web designer... thus the two are apples vs oranges.

Posted by: ADK46er at March 19, 2016 09:11 AM (oA2jF)

18
I was looking to buy some drafting tools and came across this set advertising courses in designing yachts. They also sold YUGE drafting tools which I liked.

Posted by: Bruce With a Wang! at March 19, 2016 09:11 AM (iQIUe)

19 Apprenticeship programs are great in concept.

However, when Big Government inserts itself into the loop of determining which programs to fund or defund, comic-opera problems inevitably ensue.

My favorite example is drawn from Germany, where apprenticeships had been key for centuries in the German industrial ascent.

The German federal government was continuing to lavishly fund apprentice programs in coal mining, at the very same time that the very same German federal government was irrevocably committing itself to shutting down all domestic coal production for "green" reasons.

Posted by: torquewrench at March 19, 2016 09:11 AM (noWW6)

20 Trade unions artificially inflate the cost of doing buisness.

Posted by: Vic-we have no party at March 19, 2016 09:10 AM (t2KH5)

Thus helping the non-trade-unionists to be poor but equal!

Posted by: Hrothgar at March 19, 2016 09:12 AM (wYnyS)

21 "Does your campus have safe spaces?"

"Yup." "Pretty darn safe."

Posted by: PabloD at March 19, 2016 09:13 AM (6zbVX)

22 It's amazing how little most people know today and defer to "experts" for the most minor tasks.

Posted by: JackStraw

Sometimes the experts are worth the money. I had a sewer backup problem on and off for the past 20 years. You learn quick the tell tale signs it's time for a rodding. However, we had an addition put on last year on our 80 year old home. When the plumber came in to quote he noticed that the kitchen sink drain was tapped into the vent line for the basement drain who knows how many years ago. So the vent line was clogging causing theAll of the different rodders I called never saw it even though they were down in the basement 2 feet away running the equipment. That's why the problem kept happening. When they did the addition they plumbed it correctly. That should end the problem.

Fingers crossed

Posted by: Bruce at March 19, 2016 09:13 AM (8ikIW)

23 Crap, that was supposed to have more text, with a reference to armored hull plating. Pixy hamsters ate it.

Posted by: PabloD at March 19, 2016 09:14 AM (6zbVX)

24 I am in on the porch rocker, Vic, thank you and please continue the snark

Posted by: FCF at March 19, 2016 09:14 AM (kejii)

25 Posted by: Bubba at March 19, 2016 09:01 AM (jXM9O)

I live in an old house, and the main line to the municipal sewer is about 50 feet long. I'll pay someone with the correct equipment who can do it quickly rather than wait until the tool rental place opens on Monday morning.

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at March 19, 2016 09:14 AM (Zu3d9)

26 The only trade I know about is Fair Trade! I ONLY drink Fair Trade Cocoa. Join me!

Posted by: Pajama Boy at March 19, 2016 09:14 AM (gwG9s)

27 That's exactly the kind of institutional knowledge that is lost when a country loses its manufacturing base.

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at March 19, 2016 09:10 AM (Zu3d9)

But the country will be OK as long as China makes cheap shoes to be sold by illiterate high school graduates to the baristas selling over-priced coffee flavored concoctions to shoe salesmen.

Posted by: Hrothgar at March 19, 2016 09:15 AM (wYnyS)

28 You know that stupid movie that I didn't see, where the "elites" lived in a big circle above the planet, and some rutting nobodies down below tried to get up there, or something?

Well that is the mental image people have of elite. Fancy homes, fancy clothes, designer tableware, designer food. I guess they have servants who prepare/maintain it all.

Probably no plumbers in the bunch.

We create these illusions, and young people soak it up, constantly, subconsciously. Is it really any wonder nobody wants to work for a living?

Posted by: BurtTC at March 19, 2016 09:16 AM (TOk1P)

29 I'll pay someone with the correct equipment who can do it quickly rather
than wait until the tool rental place opens on Monday morning.

At my age, I figure they can have the job done by the time I find my car keys.

Posted by: Bruce at March 19, 2016 09:17 AM (8ikIW)

30 I learned my trade in college ... while in college I mean. It was a service industry trade that allowed me to make better money and have more freedom than my degree offered. But college was cheaper then, so at least I came out with no debt.

Learning to handle a business and clients is not so hard ... probably a few you-tube videos and if one took them to heart, local economies could revive with young entrepreneurs servicing the retired pensioners.

Posted by: Illiniwek at March 19, 2016 09:17 AM (eUbDe)

31 We create these illusions, and young people soak it up, constantly, subconsciously. Is it really any wonder nobody wants to work for a living?

Posted by: BurtTC at March 19, 2016 09:16 AM (TOk1P)

I think these days, you can live pretty well entirely on government ~~subsidies~~ largesse (stolen from others at the point of certain legal destruction by the IRS), and the best part is you don't have to be a legal citizen anymore. In fact, if you are legal and trying to stay that way, it is harder to get those benefits!

Posted by: Hrothgar at March 19, 2016 09:19 AM (wYnyS)

32 Posted by: ADK46er at March 19, 2016 09:11 AM (oA2jF)

I was not suggesting that they are comparable. My plumber earns his money by being very skilled and rather intelligent. Much more impressive than the dime-a-dozen millennials.

But with a little effort those special snowflake web designers and barristas can make much more money doing real work that has a benefit to society far in excess of the marginal improvement in the look of a web site for XYZ company.

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at March 19, 2016 09:19 AM (Zu3d9)

33 I have personally experienced the two tracks of vocational training and the employment it produced, and university education and itS resultant employment. I had a degree in mining technology that landed me a job that was very lucrative and stable for a lot of years. I was a valued highly skilled technician with lots of opportunity to make money, and also advance within the company.
Over time, and as a result of a new marriage, I decided to "reevaluate" and went back to a University, receiving a degree in a Liberal arts field. The result was a long tenure as a State employee. The culture was one of requiring me to conform to the campus PC, and watching my ass at all times, in no small part due to my being white, and male.
After many years, I "retired", early, not because of age or inability, but due to general disgust and demoralization.
In one occupation, trades, skill and diligence was highly rewarded. In the other, "state" white collar work, conformity and political guile was what insured survival.
The contrast could not be more stark, in my personal experience.

Posted by: kraken at March 19, 2016 09:20 AM (sdxPm)

34 "That's exactly the kind of institutional knowledge that is lost when a country loses its manufacturing base."

Big jets were built here in Commiefornia for many decades at the Long Beach plant originally built by Douglas, and then acquired by Boeing.

It has just recently ceased operations, with the end of its last production program, the C-17 cargo jet. And there will never be another plant like it in SoCal, ever.

Large manufacturing operations have an extensive local food chain of little outside feeder shops, who fabricate the odd one-off parts and who stock the irregular items. When the big plant closes down for good, so do the small fry.

What's depressing and funny at the same time are the lachrymose pieces in the _LA Slimes_ about the laid-off union workers from the big plant, who faithfully voted Democratic forever, and who thought the good times of fat paychecks would never end, and who are now asking questions.

Questions along the lines of "Would you like fries with that?"

Posted by: torquewrench at March 19, 2016 09:20 AM (noWW6)

35 Btw since it's Saturday I have my weekly wrap up on my blog

Go check it out if you are bored

Link in nic

Posted by: @votermom at March 19, 2016 09:20 AM (cbfNE)

36 2 kids w/ STEM degrees; 2 kids w/o

All four have great careers and no debt. All four work hard and love what they do.

What else could a parent ask for?

Posted by: Foghorn Leghorn at March 19, 2016 09:20 AM (l0lja)

37 There is another school, very small, that turns out nautical engineers and designers. Everyone is on scholarship. I forget the name though...

Posted by: @votermom at March 19, 2016 09:21 AM (cbfNE)

38 Well in all fairness to the youth, looking at porn half of the work day while pretending to do web design must have more appeal than snaking out rodents from the main sewer line or listening to some old codger gripe about the plumbing costs now compared to what they paid back in 1965;-)

Posted by: Bebe Dahl at March 19, 2016 09:22 AM (yNyJy)

39 Businesses are crying for carpenters, plumbers, and electricians and just can not get them.

They're crying for open borders!

Posted by: Mario Rubio at March 19, 2016 09:22 AM (n22zQ)

40 Isn't Oracle opening some kind of hi-tech votech school near it's headquarters?

Posted by: @votermom at March 19, 2016 09:23 AM (cbfNE)

41 College has limited-to-no value for many careers. The amount of irrelevant trash taught as a part of getting a degree is ridiculous. There's typically 40-60 worthless credits required as a part of most 125 credit 4yr degrees.

Posted by: Foghorn Leghorn at March 19, 2016 09:24 AM (l0lja)

42 So where is our Michelle Fields today? She could benefit from learning a marketable skill now that she is unemployed.

Posted by: Bruce With a Wang! at March 19, 2016 09:24 AM (iQIUe)

43 "Aren't trade unions part of the bedrock of the socialist state, comrade?

Posted by: Hrothgar at March 19, 2016 09:08 AM (wYnyS)"

That would be Anarcho-Syndicalists, Comrade, like the POUM militia that George Orwell joined during the Spanish Civil War. Comrade Stalin saw through their lies and was in the process of having those Trotskyists shot when the General Franco and his fascists put a stop to that.

Posted by: Obnoxious A-Hole at March 19, 2016 09:24 AM (QHgTq)

44 "Nobody wants to be a plumber making $250k, when they could be web designers making $35k!"

Posted by: Open Blogger at 10:00 AM

This plumber is probably a good guy. Level headed, responsible, running a business that grosses a few million a year, paying employees, buying supplies and inventory, doing what needs to be done.

You should ask him to run for congress.

However, I can save you a little time. Although he will be flattered and say he'll consider it, his wife will chime in a ask if you're out of your fucking mind.

She's got a family to run. Kids to put through college. A house and cars and furniture and a dog. All this costs money.

And here you are, asking her husband to go into debt running for a office that pays 175K and gives you free media anal exams every two years.

Yeah, where do we sign up for that?

The way things are now, only those egotists with nothing to lose or multi-millionaires are in a position to run for congress or the senate.

Want real people who would do well and really look out for the good of the public?

Increase congressional pay to 500K per year plus a bonus of 500K if the congress meets the goals of passing all their budgets on time within 20% of GDP.

That would put them in the low-range of what people who are responsible for spending trillions of dollars make. It would make it possible for tens or hundreds of thousands of professionals or small business persons to run for office and not lose ground.

The only thing stopping this is petty jealousy and a mistaken feeling that anyone in public service should sacrifice to be there.

By paying more, we'll save big in the long run.

Posted by: jwest at March 19, 2016 09:25 AM (Zs4uk)

45 Posted by: @votermom at March 19, 2016 09:21 AM (cbfNE)

Oh hell.....senility is a PITA.

It's somewhere in the NY metro area...I think.

Webb Institute?

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at March 19, 2016 09:25 AM (Zu3d9)

46 but with a LOT of effort A SMALL NUMBER of those special snowflake web designers...

FIFY

Posted by: ADK46er at March 19, 2016 09:27 AM (oA2jF)

47 CBD, that's it - Webb Institute for Naval Architecture

If my kids had any love for the sea I'd be brainwashing them to apply.
Alas!

Posted by: @votermom at March 19, 2016 09:27 AM (cbfNE)

48 Never even heard of this school. What a great program!

Posted by: t-bird at March 19, 2016 09:28 AM (n22zQ)

49
Almonds. (Intsy link to VDH at hoover.org)

Somewhat related to craft unions. It's a long hike over a round about path, but it seems that everyone wants almonds; almond butter, almond milk, almond flour, all natural almonds, almonds, almonds.

And California Growers, (Ya, those basterds.) are making yuuugee profit growing almonds, and suddenly the evil corporate growers in California are using up precious water, not paying their fair share, gouging the hipsters who just want a few almond slices on their vegetarian organic berry muffin. The evil growers are seducing world markets and making America Great again, and that just can not be allowed. Save the salmond, save the delta shrimp . . er . . smelt. And those evil growers don't exploit illegal immigrant farm labor because the operation is all mechanical. How dare they not exploit poor farm labor from Mexico!!

So ya, just as soon as our moral superiors discover that shipbuilding continues in the US, and makes a profit, they'll be coming after you and your corrupt federal subsidies that could feed poor immigrant families instead of building Ships of War, you basterds.

Posted by: Donnybrook at March 19, 2016 09:29 AM (xXo2R)

50 Well in all fairness to the youth, looking at porn
half of the work day while pretending to do web design must have more
appeal than snaking out rodents from the main sewer line or listening to
some old codger gripe about the plumbing costs now compared to what
they paid back in 1965;-)

Posted by: Bebe Dahl at March 19, 2016 09:22 AM (yNyJy)

But hey, that's how Bill Jobs got rich! Surfing internet pron, until he invented the internet, so people could sit around inventing the internet. And getting rich. Surfing pron.

Seriously. Does anybody go into that type of field without thinking he/she is going to be the next big thing? I don't really know, because these people are a different specie of human from what I generally encounter.

I picture dudes with long beards and short hair, dudettes with nerd glasses, and some unnatural color on their head.

Maybe I'm not being fair.

Posted by: BurtTC at March 19, 2016 09:29 AM (TOk1P)

51 They're crying for open borders!
Posted by: Mario Rubio at March 19, 2016 09:22 AM (n22zQ
LMAO, with that I must go walk the dogs before the crowd gets out and bums out my nature walk. Later all. HAGD.

Posted by: Bebe Dahl at March 19, 2016 09:30 AM (yNyJy)

52 Posted by: ADK46er at March 19, 2016 09:27 AM (oA2jF)

A lot of effort in their tiny little minds.

I worked as a carpenter to make money during college.

Framing out a door was often far more satisfying than completing a problem set.

The mindset is that manual labor, even if it involves skills and intelligence, is in some odd way less valuable than anything done in the comfort of an office chair.

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at March 19, 2016 09:30 AM (Zu3d9)

53 I wish the stepson would get into something useful...there are still trades he could do. Instead he's fucking around at the university, mainly for the student housing. gah Trucking school would be a better play.

Posted by: Jeanne del norte at March 19, 2016 09:31 AM (4JCET)

54 The mindset is that manual labor, even if it involves skills and intelligence, is in some odd way less valuable than anything done in the comfort of an office chair.

You know what I love about a job like that? The completion. You can look at it, and say, I did that.

Posted by: no good deed at March 19, 2016 09:32 AM (GgxVX)

55 And isn't that generally the thing these days? Guys with no practical skills have the long beards, guys with actual, you know, jobs and stuff, clean shaven and otherwise presentable, with no discernible body odor.

Axe spray does NOT constitute "no discernible body odor."

Posted by: BurtTC at March 19, 2016 09:32 AM (TOk1P)

56 This Ian Fletcher guy wrote on the limits of comparative advantage, and after watching several of his videos, I found him to be the clearest thinker on the subject. This is his site, with a link to his book which is only $6.50 on kindle.

freetradedoesntwork.com/works.htm

He goes back into older history in the first half of the below linked YouTube video, with a guy on the left that wrote on a similar message. The message of Buchanan or Perot, or even some on the left, recognize that we are being taken to the cleaners by the globalists and multi-nationals. American history is essentially founded on "protected" trade. It is fundamental to the success of western nations, and other countries. We don't have to protect old industry, but future industry. (not steel so much as jets) And no other country trades freely with US ... we are the schmucks.

The first half of this video really lays out the basics, and should end the argument about "free trade" being some conservative virtue. Trump has been right on trade since the 1980's, while Cruz is still a squish. To me it is almost as big an issue as immigration, and probably bigger to the general populace. (it's the economy stupid)

youtube.com/watch?v=_y53evepdgY

starts at about 1:20 ... or just search YouTube for ian fletcher trade

Posted by: Illiniwek at March 19, 2016 09:33 AM (eUbDe)

57 My HS freshman - still no clue.
Good student's but doesn't like math enough to go onto engineering.

She loves drawing on the computer with a stylus.
Her favorite subject is history.
And zombies.

Posted by: @votermom at March 19, 2016 09:33 AM (cbfNE)

58 I can attest to this.

I went through the apprenticeship program at Mare Island Naval Shipyard to become a machinist.

That education served me well, all my life.

Sadly, Mare Island was one of the bases shut down by Mr. Slithers Clinton.

Posted by: franksalterego at March 19, 2016 09:34 AM (Cd+Fa)

59 I am a machinist / tool and instrument maker with fifty years of experience at this point....
I regularly design and fabricate test systems that effect all your lives if you drive a vehicle or use any kind of electronic device... I was apprenticed with a German who came out of the Ruhr valley in the thirties and forties...we built nuke stuff...Tridents Tomahawks Subs and Ships, Airframes and Aircraft delivery systems...I made some of the first artificial knees and hip joints...we did this without CNC machinery....grinding form cutters and using X/Y Rotary tables.... I built many of the prototypes for the ISS and in all ...a lot of space qualified hardware for missions like Voyagers I and II... there used to be a plethora of young people able to grasp the concepts and learn the trade but now...young people are ruined by the public schools...they have no spatial conceptualization or critical thinking skills... All the young folk I've encountered who have the mental skills have been Home Schooled ...
So who do I pass this on to?

Posted by: Beto Ochoa (@Beto_In_Austin) at March 19, 2016 09:36 AM (hCdMd)

60 I lived this before it became a thing.

Double major in Economics and Business Admin. Did the finance thingy in a cubicle.

Im now a general contractor specializing in disaster restoration.

Posted by: fixerupper at March 19, 2016 09:36 AM (kvZfk)

61 while i agree that it shouldn't require a lot of effort the important thing is that they believe the amount of effort required is not worth it.

i agree with your mindset comment that somehow many people think an office job is more valuable than one requiring some physical labor.

Posted by: ADK46er at March 19, 2016 09:37 AM (oA2jF)

62 Posted by: franksalterego at March 19, 2016 09:34 AM (Cd+Fa)

I lived in that area (Berkeley/Oakland) for 20 years. When they closed Mare Island that was the beginning of the end for Vallejo. And of course Richmond had already imploded.....

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at March 19, 2016 09:38 AM (Zu3d9)

63 I agree with the general gist of it. We do spend too much time encouraging people to pursue degrees and lines of work that aren't that lucrative.

We also, stupidly, have a stigma against actually being upfront with people about what your specific income will probably be in one line of work vs. another.

However, it should be pointed out that the average salary of a plumber is a wee bit less than 250k.

More power to this guy, but that is an outlier.

http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes472152.htm

Posted by: AD at March 19, 2016 09:38 AM (QWY55)

64 In Argentina, the trade unions are "guilds".

The guilds do much more than training. They are a cultural tribe and help establish how a person fits in to society.

Argentina has national health care for everyone, but only the poor use it.

For the working classes, their particular guild maintains clinics for the benefit of their members. The rich use private clinics.

I can see the U.S. moving into this type of system as Obamacare proves far too expensive to survive.

Posted by: jwest at March 19, 2016 09:39 AM (Zs4uk)

65
I lived in SF in the 80s and loved to see the submarines come in and out of the bay. I worked on the 18th floor on Portrero Hill and had a great view. One time saw three of them coming in, submerged. Saw one not submerged heading out under the bridge. Man was it fast!

Posted by: Bruce With a Wang! at March 19, 2016 09:41 AM (iQIUe)

66 The problem with free trade is we make nothing that we can trade anymore.

We basically sold our seed corn.

Posted by: @votermom at March 19, 2016 09:42 AM (cbfNE)

67 Isaac Newton was a carpenter. Furniture maker, actually. Like quite a few other leading lights of Science (Old Style), his observations were better because his instruments were more accurate. And when things went badly for him in his government career, he had no problem at all returning to the workshop.

He died a virgin, so, right there's your answer.
I'll leave the mercury-sniffing out of it.

Posted by: Stringer Davis at March 19, 2016 09:42 AM (xq1UY)

68 Posted by: AD at March 19, 2016 09:38 AM (QWY55)

You are correct. But he works in a well-off area, and he is responsive and quick...and damned good.

But I think the larger point stands.

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at March 19, 2016 09:42 AM (Zu3d9)

69 My grandfather entered a similar program as a teen before WWI building and maintaining locomotives. He eventually became a master tool maker for the Navy and ended his career as an administrator for the facility. I heard he never got beyond 8th or 9th grade of public school. Apparently, that apprentice program worked. Between the practical education and his own abilities he taught himself higher math needed to do his work. (The SOB sure didn't pass those talents on to me.) I still have a few of his tools and a drafting set, which I treasure.

Posted by: JTB at March 19, 2016 09:43 AM (FvdPb)

70 In Argentina, the trade unions are "guilds".

The guilds do much more than training. They are a cultural tribe and help establish how a person fits in to society.

=================
Their strikes helped usher in the junta and made them targets of the death squads.

Posted by: Bruce With a Wang! at March 19, 2016 09:44 AM (iQIUe)

71 "doesn't like math enough to go onto engineering"

Inspect the curriculum and the instructors. In my experience, the vast majority of pupils who "don't like math" are being badly taught.

This leaves aside the question of whether it makes professional sense to enter engineering as a profession in the era of the H-1B visa.

Nota bene: the H-1Bs are coming after people in fields like plumbing, too.

There are a lot of native-born special snowflakes who won't be economic competition in plumbing because of class bias and the fear of occasionally scenting poo. Third World immigrants have no such bias nor fear.

Posted by: torquewrench at March 19, 2016 09:45 AM (noWW6)

72 Posted by: jwest at March 19, 2016 09:39 AM (Zs4uk)

I am a great believer in the Guilds....It ensures that skills and methods are maintained and improved in perpetuity...

Posted by: Beto Ochoa (@Beto_In_Austin) at March 19, 2016 09:46 AM (hCdMd)

73 52 Posted by: ADK46er at March 19, 2016 09:27 AM (oA2jF)

A lot of effort in their tiny little minds.

I worked as a carpenter to make money during college.

Framing out a door was often far more satisfying than completing a problem set.

I worked as a fabricator/assembler in a shop that built heat treating furnaces for the steel industry "in between" college.

I learned more about problem solving (here's a set of blueprints and this is what we need to get done, see you later) in that job and working for my dad installing conveyor systems part-time than anywhere else. I got as much or more job satisfaction seeing something built than completing a project in my current white collar work.

And while I'm now positioned with my own company to be more financially rewarded (hopefully), if I were on a traditional career path in my current field I would have been more financially rewarded as a welder with the right certifications, for example, over the past 30 years.

But actual work isn't cool these days.

Posted by: Keith at March 19, 2016 09:47 AM (nFB1w)

74 My step father got into welding after leaving the Marines in the early 70's. He started off working in shipyards, got tired of his union calling for a strike just before the holidays and left for a private company that did smaller jobs. The ship building company closed. His new job, along with a crap ton of work, led him to eventually own his own company. 40 years later he's worth millions because of his hard work and not being an idiot when it comes to investing money. I think it's still possible to live that dream, but the key is the willingness to work hard, to do without sometimes, and to stick with it when it gets hard. I don't think that kind of thinking is as common as it used to be.

Posted by: digitalbrownshirt at March 19, 2016 09:47 AM (ROUi8)

75 Oh Christ here we go with the beards again. Because, it's all about beards.
My plumber has a beard, just to piss in your goddamn corn flakes. WASTF.

Posted by: Stringer Davis at March 19, 2016 09:48 AM (xq1UY)

76 I really miss working. I've been off for most of the past year from back surgeries, but normally I'm a CNC machinist. There's a lot of satisfaction in making things. Much more than most jobs I've held. I think the last time I felt anything close to it was when I was in the Air Force.

Posted by: digitalbrownshirt at March 19, 2016 09:50 AM (ROUi8)

77 Isaac Newton was a carpenter.

Posted by: Stringer Davis at March 19, 2016 09:42 AM (xq1UY)

Uh....I don't think so.

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at March 19, 2016 09:50 AM (Zu3d9)

78 I dont know if any of you are familiar with OmahaConservative who use to post on HotAir but he has died of a heart attack. Really sad.

Posted by: Bruce With a Wang! at March 19, 2016 09:51 AM (iQIUe)

79 "I lived in SF in the 80s and loved to see the submarines come in and out
of the bay. I worked on the 18th floor on Portrero Hill and had a great
view. One time saw three of them coming in, submerged."

What, sails not visible above the surface? The USCG traffic control office on Yerba Buena Island would have pitched a fit.

As I recall, at one point, the Coasties were asking for USN submarine movements within the Bay to be publicized days in advance. The Navy pointedly ignored the request. But they did follow the Coast Guard requirements for visibility when underway.

Posted by: torquewrench at March 19, 2016 09:54 AM (noWW6)

80 Oh Christ here we go with the beards again. Because, it's all about beards.
My plumber has a beard, just to piss in your goddamn corn flakes. WASTF.

Posted by: Stringer Davis at March 19, 2016 09:48 AM (xq1UY)

You know why I bring up the beards? Because it annoys you so.

It's what gives my life purpose and meaning.

Posted by: BurtTC at March 19, 2016 09:55 AM (TOk1P)

81 Posted by: Bruce With a Wang! at March 19, 2016 09:51 AM (iQIUe)

Crap. That stinks.
Prayers for his family.

Posted by: @votermom at March 19, 2016 09:56 AM (cbfNE)

82 I am learning to cut and fit dovetail joints in wood, using hand tools. Was using a $15 saw but spent $150 on two specialty saws yesterday and will start practicing with them.

My apprenticement program is YouTube, which is the online classroom for just about anything you might want to do.

Posted by: the littl shyning man at March 19, 2016 09:57 AM (U6f54)

83 I do some property management, so I deal with tradespeople quite often, and you cannot be an idiot and be a successful plumber or electrician. Good carpenters and general construction types are hard to come by and you only give out their names to your really good friends.

Mike Rowe has been banging this drum for a while. If I had bright kids who didn't mind doing some hard work, I would encourage them to consider trade school. These are the jobs that cannot be outsourced.

Posted by: biancaneve at March 19, 2016 09:57 AM (e98eb)

84 Oh Christ here we go with the beards again. Because, it's all about beards.
My plumber has a beard, just to piss in your goddamn corn flakes. WASTF.
Posted by: Stringer Davis at March 19, 2016 09:48 AM (xq1UY)

It's not the beards. It's that they are using conditioner in their beards. And styling products.

Posted by: Kindltot at March 19, 2016 09:57 AM (XQHkt)

85 My neighbor is an Electrician. Has his own company, makes good money. His two sons are now running the business. He is college educated. He has told me that he too has a hard time hiring people and keeping them. His employees, after they become Journeymen Electricians make well over 100k a yr.

Posted by: lynndy at March 19, 2016 09:58 AM (DaWUf)

86 So who do I pass this on to?

Oh, please. We can "Make" anything cool out of water-soluble PLA on our $300 3-D printers made from old inkjets and disk drives. And for all the stuff that isn't awesome- like, you know, metal- you buy that from China!

Posted by: t-bird at March 19, 2016 09:59 AM (Z58Xa)

87 If I had spent the money I spent on getting a BA on welding school, I'd own my own shop instead of sitting in a cubical wearing a headset.

A shame, really.

Posted by: Kindltot at March 19, 2016 10:01 AM (XQHkt)

88 Wait. Why are we talking about work on a Saturday?

Posted by: rickl at March 19, 2016 10:02 AM (sdi6R)

89 Many kids should do their last two years of high school in some trade school job, or even a regular job where they get instruction and credit in simple things, like showing up and looking to work hard, rather than trying to avoid work.

A simple class on employer/employee dynamics and self respect might give many a better start than struggling through their last two years of high school, and might keep many from dropping out. But we need to have jobs to make all that work.

Posted by: Illiniwek at March 19, 2016 10:03 AM (eUbDe)

90 67 Isaac Newton was a carpenter. Furniture maker, actually

wut

Posted by: OregonMuse at March 19, 2016 10:03 AM (P5x6u)

91 It's not the beards. It's that they are using conditioner in their beards. And styling products.
Posted by: Kindltot at March 19, 2016 09:57 AM (XQHkt)
---
A return to neo-Victorian stylishness is most welcome, IMHO.

Posted by: All Hail Eris, Literate Savage at March 19, 2016 10:03 AM (jR7Wy)

92 The guy who did my roof was an engineering graduate from Texas A&M. Well he didn't do my roof but owned the company who did my roof. Worked for some tech/ oil company and decided to start his business when the writing was on the wall at his job.

On another note, I've always been an advocate for trade schools instead of college. Of course it's come back to bite me in the butt since they are closing my golf range to build a vocational center . We were on a yearly lease with the school district who owned the land. A bond passed to build the center so we got our six month notice to vacate. Closing end of May .

Posted by: Joe Hallenbeck at March 19, 2016 10:04 AM (MNgU2)

93 Anyone like Marvel shows? Season 2 of Daredevil on Netflix is out, halfway through it, very good.

Posted by: Lincolntf at March 19, 2016 10:04 AM (2cS/G)

94 Crap. That stinks.
Prayers for his family.
Posted by: @votermom at March 19, 2016 09:56 AM (cbfNE)

===========
Definitely going to ruin my fucking day.

Lost No2Liberals, another great guy and conservative in Jan due to a heart attack.

Posted by: Bruce With a Wang! at March 19, 2016 10:04 AM (iQIUe)

95 It's not the beards. It's that they are using conditioner in their beards. And styling products.

Posted by: Kindltot at March 19, 2016 09:57 AM (XQHkt)

And just for those who get themselves worked up on these topics, it was a joke. Jokes are meant to be funny and/or cause a little discomfort. Sort of like when people criticize your local sports team. If you take it personally, you might want to re-examine your priorities in life.

Or don't. You can grow a beard instead.

Posted by: BurtTC at March 19, 2016 10:05 AM (TOk1P)

96 90 67 Isaac Newton was a carpenter. Furniture maker, actually

There's nothing in Newton's wiki page about him being a carpenter. However, it did say this:

From the age of about twelve until he was seventeen, Newton was educated at The King's School, Grantham which taught Latin and Greek but no mathematics. He was removed from school, and by October 1659, he was to be found at Woolsthorpe-by-Colsterworth, where his mother, widowed for a second time, attempted to make a farmer of him. Newton hated farming.

Other than that, his life was taken up by strictly academic/scientific pursuits.

Posted by: OregonMuse at March 19, 2016 10:07 AM (P5x6u)

97 Son managed to become a journeyman carpenter at 24. Spent a few years framing houses, but his HS general education was very good so he passed the test. Doing very well in WI right now and things are so bad in Illinois that I have been thinking of moving to WI. Yes, the trades are looking for young people, but most can't pass the tests. The office ladies at the union hall had cupcakes for him when he passed.

Posted by: mustbequantum at March 19, 2016 10:08 AM (MIKMs)

98 96
There's nothing in Newton's wiki page about him being a carpenter.
Posted by: OregonMuse at March 19, 2016 10:07 AM (P5x6u)

I had to go look, too.

Posted by: rickl at March 19, 2016 10:08 AM (sdi6R)

99 Prolly ground his own telescope mirrors, though. There's a skill.

Posted by: rickl at March 19, 2016 10:09 AM (sdi6R)

100 And isn't that generally the thing these days? Guys with no practical skills have the long beards, guys with actual, you know, jobs and stuff, clean shaven and otherwise presentable, with no discernible body odor.

Plenty of construction people with beards or long hair (like me, though I try to keep my hair fairly short since it looks better that way). I know a number of white-collar types with beards, too, though they tend to be neater (Like my Dad).

Posted by: Grey Fox at March 19, 2016 10:09 AM (bZ7mE)

101 Trump is bellowing on Twitter about his new ceiling at something like 49.5 percent of those polled, in a race that now only includes four.

He is going to be gobsmacked when that ceiling stays put even after all others are gone and it is only him.

Yeah, he'll get half of Republicans to vote for him, then maybe a third of independents, and perhaps five percent of Democrats. It'll be a power-flush, right down the toilet.

Who will give a loser like him a reality show, after that performance?

Posted by: the littl shyning man at March 19, 2016 10:10 AM (U6f54)

102 I still have the apprenticeship agreement signed by my g-g-grandfather in Yorkshire, when he was 14 years old. Seven year commitment. During that time he earned - nothing -, but he was fed , clothed, and housed. I expect that he spent a LOT of time doing the lowliest drudge work in the beginning.

Now, think about it. Seven years is the equivalent of four years of undergrad plus three years of grad school, all devoted to ONE subject. At the end, there was no question regarding his skills, because there were plenty of examples of them around. And they weren't samples, they were the actual work that he had been doing.

In his case, he was a stonemason. Today, one can find his work here and there around Yorkshire, monuments in cemeteries, decorative work in churches, stone fonts, etc.

In the fullness of time, he had his own business, and occupied sundry town and church offices.

My point is that the apprenticeship structure produced practiced people with known, demonstrated skills.

Posted by: Mike Hammer, etc., etc. at March 19, 2016 10:10 AM (9mTYi)

103
As I recall, at one point, the Coasties were asking for USN submarine movements within the Bay to be publicized days in advance. The Navy pointedly ignored the request. But they did follow the Coast Guard requirements for visibility when underway.
Posted by: torquewrench at March 19, 2016 09:54 AM (noWW6)

=============
From my advantage point they looked like YUGE black sharks moving under the water.

Posted by: Bruce With a Wang! at March 19, 2016 10:11 AM (iQIUe)

104 Or don't. You can grow a beard instead.
Posted by: BurtTC at March 19, 2016 10:05 AM (TOk1P)

a) I can't grow a beard. It's genetic and no male on my mom's family side can.
b) I was joking too.

Posted by: Kindltot at March 19, 2016 10:11 AM (XQHkt)

105 The obsession with "white collar" work where you don't get your hands dirty, regardless of how much income you could make by getting them dirty, is common in failed societies like in Central America. Places like El Salvador and Honduras are full of attorneys living on the edges of poverty.

Posted by: Skookumchuk at March 19, 2016 10:11 AM (/WPPJ)

106 >>So where is our Michelle Fields today? She could benefit from learning a marketable skill now that she is unemployed.
Posted by: Bruce With a Wang!

I can blossom up a bruise on command. What kind of job will that get me?

Posted by: Michelle Fields at March 19, 2016 10:12 AM (c7vUv)

107 My plumber, electrician, awning maker, and hairdresser all have degrees from the local State U. None regret it or carried any debt, but they love the money and freedom of their self-owned businesses.

Posted by: PJ at March 19, 2016 10:12 AM (cHuNI)

108 Cannot bang the drum of Mike Rowe enough here... if you don't follow his FB stuff you damn sure need to be.

He's huge on this very topic- and damn good at it too.

My kids are REQUIRED to learn a skill- i don't care what kind. One is a computer 'tech' (physically repairing computers and software as well) and the other music. Neither one will ever starve with those. I learned electronics and cabling as a 'backup' which I had to fall back on several times. They will never fail you.

Posted by: Mr Wolf at March 19, 2016 10:12 AM (cjgnX)

109 Now, think about it. Seven years is the equivalent of four years of undergrad plus three years of grad school, all devoted to ONE subject.
-------------

Oh, I left out, working six days a week, fifty two weeks a year....

Posted by: Mike Hammer, etc., etc. at March 19, 2016 10:13 AM (9mTYi)

110 I am learning to cut and fit dovetail joints in wood, using hand tools. Was using a $15 saw but spent $150 on two specialty saws yesterday and will start practicing with them.

What saws? I did my first set following Tage Frid's instructions and they turned out well, but my old backsaw saw has too wide a kerf for accurate dovetail cuts.

Posted by: Grey Fox at March 19, 2016 10:13 AM (bZ7mE)

111 Voter Mom, check the EMT. Apparently the CDC has zombie preparedness plans.

Posted by: Anna Puma at March 19, 2016 10:13 AM (tzULn)

112 My point is that the apprenticeship structure produced practiced people with known, demonstrated skills.

Posted by: Mike Hammer, etc., etc. at March 19, 2016 10:10 AM (9mTYi)

So what's your point?

Posted by: Melissa Click, wymyn's studies prof. at March 19, 2016 10:13 AM (P5x6u)

113 The point was "...at 4:00AM!" And if you read between lines the subject plumber is probably a contractor. My mother-in-law did the books for a small plumbing contractor in rural Ga. She said the man was a millionaire.

Posted by: Ed in Georgia at March 19, 2016 10:14 AM (ofmt0)

114 "Guys with no practical skills have the long beards, guys with actual, you know, jobs and stuff, clean shaven and otherwise presentable, with no discernible body odor."

Heh! A lot of the enginerds and most of the technicians in my company that have any amount of experience and skill have beards. All the Program Managers and are clean shaven and otherwise presentable and can't poor piss from a boot.

Just an observation.

Posted by: CrotchetyOldJarhead at March 19, 2016 10:14 AM (JfSXS)

115 I can blossom up a bruise on command. What kind of job will that get me?
Posted by: Michelle Fields at March 19, 2016 10:12 AM (c7vUv)

============
Seriously, if she bruises that easily, she should see a doctor and have some blood work done.

Posted by: Bruce With a Wang! at March 19, 2016 10:14 AM (iQIUe)

116 97 Son managed to become a journeyman carpenter at 24.

My son refused to go to college, but went through the equivalent of an apprentice program by himself getting Microsoft certifications, Cisco router training, working for a local company doing data wiring and the like.

He went off on his own and had a nice little business servicing small business clients. He eventually sold out to business machines dealer and now makes six figures running the information systems end of the company.

My daughter, on the other hand, spent 6 years in college, came back and worked for a bank for 4 months, then took a waitress job at steak house that she worked at on and off throughout the years. She makes double what the bank was paying by being a waitress.

Posted by: jwest at March 19, 2016 10:14 AM (Zs4uk)

117 Oh, I left out, working six days a week, fifty two weeks a year....

Posted by: Mike Hammer, etc., etc. at March 19, 2016 10:13 AM (9mTYi)

Did he get a dental plan?

Posted by: OregonMuse at March 19, 2016 10:15 AM (P5x6u)

118 Or don't. You can grow a beard instead.
Posted by: BurtTC at March 19, 2016 10:05 AM (TOk1P)

a) I can't grow a beard. It's genetic and no male on my mom's family side can.
b) I was joking too.

Posted by: Kindltot at March 19, 2016 10:11 AM (XQHkt)

Yes, the hirsuted have no sense of humor. I believe that is genetic also.

Posted by: BurtTC at March 19, 2016 10:16 AM (TOk1P)

119 I'm a self taught McGyver. In the South its referred to as a Redneck repairman.

Posted by: Joe Hallenbeck at March 19, 2016 10:16 AM (MNgU2)

120 When I joined the Air Force, all I wanted to do was work on airplanes. When I got to basic, there were several girls who had joined for Direct Duty assignments to learn plumbing, carpentry, etc. They told me they knew a plumber could make a living anywhere. An airframe repair specialist? Prolly need an airport for that.

Posted by: antisocialist at March 19, 2016 10:17 AM (9n14Y)

121 Posted by: Ed in Georgia at March 19, 2016 10:14 AM (ofmt0)

Nope.

He is his only full-time employee. He has one other plumber he uses for part-time work when he gets too busy to do it all himself.

He has a good mix of residential and small commercial customers.

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at March 19, 2016 10:18 AM (Zu3d9)

122 "Guys with no practical skills have the long beards, guys with actual, you know, jobs and stuff, clean shaven and otherwise presentable, with no discernible body odor."
----------------

Hmm.
*lays aside bespoke cryogenic thermal control system, strokes beard, and ponders*

Posted by: Mike Hammer, etc., etc. at March 19, 2016 10:19 AM (9mTYi)

123 Oregon Muse, a book of a different sort

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B005DTKM38

Posted by: Anna Puma at March 19, 2016 10:19 AM (tzULn)

124 Yes, the hirsuted have no sense of humor. I believe that is genetic also.

Posted by: BurtTC at March 19, 2016 10:16 AM (TOk1P)

I can vouch for that.

Whenever I try to grow a beard it gets so damned irritating that I never get past about two weeks.

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at March 19, 2016 10:20 AM (Zu3d9)

125 I met someone at a funeral I conducted who did glass blowing. Nice young man. He did some apprentice program with some Amish or Mennonites in PA; I don't know how he got the apprenticeship because he's not Amish or Mennonite but he did. He started out cleaning out ovens and worked his way up. He wasn't given a salary but was given room and board. Now he makes good living at this; I found him a very interesting and creative young man to talk to.

Posted by: FenelonSpoke at March 19, 2016 10:20 AM (w4NZ8)

126
"Guys with no practical skills have the long beards, guys with actual,
you know, jobs and stuff, clean shaven and otherwise presentable, with
no discernible body odor."

----------------

Hmm.

*lays aside bespoke cryogenic thermal control system, strokes beard, and ponders*

Posted by: Mike Hammer, etc., etc. at March 19, 2016 10:19 AM (9mTYi)

While you're pondering, check your pits, man.

Posted by: BurtTC at March 19, 2016 10:20 AM (TOk1P)

127 Yes, the hirsuted have no sense of humor. I believe that is genetic also.

Posted by: BurtTC at March 19, 2016 10:16 AM (TOk1P)

I can vouch for that.

Whenever I try to grow a beard it gets so damned irritating that I never get past about two weeks.

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at March 19, 2016 10:20 AM (Zu3d9)

I'm on two days growth as we speak. Obviously I'm as irritating as all get out right now.

Posted by: BurtTC at March 19, 2016 10:21 AM (TOk1P)

128 >>Oh Christ here we go with the beards again. Because, it's all about beards.
My plumber has a beard, just to piss in your goddamn corn flakes. WASTF.
Posted by: Stringer Davis

Yeah, what's wrong with beards? I've got one too.

Posted by: Barry at March 19, 2016 10:21 AM (c7vUv)

129 Long beards get caught in things. Wedding rings can get caught in things. Break your neck or lose a finger.

Posted by: mustbequantum at March 19, 2016 10:22 AM (MIKMs)

130 A return to neo-Victorian stylishness is most welcome, IMHO.

Posted by: All Hail Eris, Literate Savage at March 19, 2016 10:03 AM

Provided we also return to the idea of men being men and not stylish little pajama boys, I could get on board with this.

Posted by: RedMindBlueState at March 19, 2016 10:22 AM (Q7bO0)

131 Trade schools are a really good idea, and if all you want is a job, that's the route you should go for, not college. Its cheaper and more directly related to work. Only an idiot goes to college to find a job, unless they are taking some very specific sorts of courses like doctor or lawyer that require it.

Meanwhile, a Swedish City cancels "Earth Day" participation (remember Earth Day? When leftist twits turn their lights off pretending that makes any difference?")

Why? Because when the lights are off, the Lutherans get more rapey.

http://tinyurl.com/z3uscb7

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at March 19, 2016 10:22 AM (39g3+)

132 I've been a carpenter for just shy of 30 years, young 20 somethings getting into any building trade are hard to come by.

Posted by: Skip at March 19, 2016 10:22 AM (fizMZ)

133 Went to trade school for electronics in 1982... I think it was like 4000, that was 34 years ago...never wanted to be an EE, just repair/ troubleshooter....laboratory automation. . It was the best 4k ive ever spent. Tried to talk my kids into it, they had no interest...

Posted by: E.T. at March 19, 2016 10:23 AM (yq4gk)

134 The people in my office run the educational gamut from tech school/OJT to master's degrees in various and sundry disciplines. It has been my observation that proficiency is determined by time on the job, curiosity, and work ethic. A degree or three will help you scale the management ladder, if that is your inclination.

Posted by: All Hail Eris, Literate Savage at March 19, 2016 10:24 AM (jR7Wy)

135 While you're pondering, check your pits, man.
Posted by: BurtTC
------------

*sniffs*

Gee... I don't know. Smells like solder flux, I think.

Posted by: Mike Hammer, etc., etc. at March 19, 2016 10:24 AM (9mTYi)

136 grumble...

Posted by: Gimli of the Longbeards at March 19, 2016 10:24 AM (8aOqE)

137 Provided we also return to the idea of men being men and not stylish little pajama boys, I could get on board with this.
Posted by: RedMindBlueState at March 19, 2016 10:22 AM (Q7bO0)

"You should try some moisturizer, it will make your beard seem fuller" is not a masculine trait.
It's the voice of your mother trying to be helpful.

Posted by: Kindltot at March 19, 2016 10:25 AM (XQHkt)

138 Posted by: All Hail Eris, Literate Savage at March 19, 2016 10:03 AM

Provided we also return to the idea of men being men and not stylish little pajama boys, I could get on board with this.
Posted by: RedMindBlueState at March 19, 2016 10:22 AM (Q7bO0)
---
Of course, some eminent Victorians wore velvet knickers and clutched lilies to their heaving Irish man-bosoms, so...

Posted by: All Hail Eris, Literate Savage at March 19, 2016 10:26 AM (jR7Wy)

139 Posted by: Skip at March 19, 2016 10:22 AM (fizMZ)

Wait for the Burning Times.....they'll be begging you for help.

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at March 19, 2016 10:26 AM (Zu3d9)

140 I just want to be sixteen again.

But I want to know what I know now, sixty years later.

Posted by: Donnybrook at March 19, 2016 10:27 AM (xXo2R)

141 We could probably put a dent in the problem of young people not wanting to get their hands dirty if we cut back on welfare programs. Having to choose between work and starvation is a powerful motivator.

Posted by: rickl at March 19, 2016 10:28 AM (sdi6R)

142 "strokes beard, and ponders*

Didn't know you had a beard, Hammer.

Posted by: Ricardo Kill at March 19, 2016 10:28 AM (x3MHz)

143 I want Revolutionary War era fashions to come back in style.

Or cloaks. I just want to be able to wear a cloak outside.

Posted by: Colorado Alex at March 19, 2016 10:29 AM (fC9RO)

144 All Hail Eris, Oscar Wilde was many things, but can he be considered "manly"?

Posted by: Kindltot at March 19, 2016 10:29 AM (XQHkt)

145 >>My point is that the apprenticeship structure produced practiced people with known, demonstrated skills.

My brother's culinary school was set up to do this. They had 3-4 week single subject courses and were producing goods consumed by customers for each one of them. The school facilitated this through several of its own restaurants and a bakery, as well as contracts to make the food for the nearby state government building (its cafeteria) and a nearby B and B. In addition, the 2 year program was designed so that the 2nd semester of each year was an internship at a restaurant. He chose this school over NYC's CIA because there, they cooked in a test kitchen for over a year before ever having to produce something people would pay for.

Posted by: Lizzy at March 19, 2016 10:29 AM (NOIQH)

146 I met someone at a funeral I conducted who did glass blowing.
-------------

I knew a guy who did full-time scientific glass blowing. Every piece was for some unique purpose. He had become something of a scientist himself over the years, just by association with physicists and chemists and understanding their projects and needs.

He produced astounding, complex stuff.

He started as an apprentice at the Mayo Clinic.

Posted by: Mike Hammer, etc., etc. at March 19, 2016 10:29 AM (9mTYi)

147 138
Of course, some eminent Victorians wore velvet knickers and clutched lilies to their heaving Irish man-bosoms, so...
Posted by: All Hail Eris, Literate Savage at March 19, 2016 10:26 AM (jR7Wy)

I know, right?

Posted by: Oscar Wilde at March 19, 2016 10:30 AM (sdi6R)

148 About twenty years ago, people were rightly bemoaning the loss of many trades and technical skills like machinist, etc, but all those build and auto mechanic shows on TV actually created a boom in interest, so there are a lot more people learning that kind of thing again. That's one boon that the History Channel gave us, even it has basically nothing to do with history.

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at March 19, 2016 10:30 AM (39g3+)

149 Of course, some eminent Victorians wore velvet knickers and clutched lilies to their heaving Irish man-bosoms, so...

Posted by: All Hail Eris, Literate Savage at March 19, 2016 10:26 AM

And the Victorian penchant for bright colors doesn't work for me. No man should be seen wearing canary yellow pants. Give me well cut basic black, and we're good.

Posted by: RedMindBlueState at March 19, 2016 10:31 AM (Q7bO0)

150 John Ratzenberger (sp?), the actor who played Cliff Claven on 'Cheers' a few years ago either started, or was a spokesman for, some organization that was promoting this idea of teaching useful, necessary trade skills to youth so everything wasn't all college, college, college. I think it folded up a few years ago.

Posted by: OregonMuse at March 19, 2016 10:31 AM (P5x6u)

151 I'm pretty sure I would have been much happier in life as a technician than a software engineer. But Silicon Valley College Track.

I loved woodshop and metal shop in school, didn't have guidance on how to build on that.

Posted by: ReactionaryMonster browsing Bravely at March 19, 2016 10:31 AM (1D4Ef)

152 Psst. Michelle Fields mysteriously NOT at her gig at the Cashing In show with Eric Bolling at Fox

Posted by: ThunderB at March 19, 2016 10:31 AM (zOTsN)

153 But plumbers don't get to play with cool software..

Posted by: Needs to Know at March 19, 2016 10:32 AM (WWSaU)

154 Waiting for the Cloggestein sock to tell us it doesn't matter there's no monetary debt, those kids have sold their souls to the military-industrial complex!

Posted by: Meremortal at March 19, 2016 10:32 AM (hTqVx)

155 I want Revolutionary War era fashions to come back in style.

Or cloaks. I just want to be able to wear a cloak outside.
Posted by: Colorado Alex at March 19, 2016 10:29 AM (fC9RO)

You won't need a cloak in San Diego. Most of the time.

Big shirts and waistcoats and the long planter's coats are cool, but the whole breeches and hose leave me cold.

Posted by: Kindltot at March 19, 2016 10:32 AM (XQHkt)

156 He chose this school over NYC's CIA because there, they cooked in a test kitchen for over a year before ever having to produce something people would pay for.
Posted by: Lizzy
----------

Heh. I knew a couple tho met/married while at the CIA. They later opened an upscale restaurant in Atlanta.

Every now and then I would drop by to see them at home, and they were inevitably having take-out pizza for dinner. I was hugely amused.

Posted by: Mike Hammer, etc., etc. at March 19, 2016 10:32 AM (9mTYi)

157 I want Revolutionary War era fashions to come back in style.
----------------

So, duels, right?

Posted by: Mike Hammer, etc., etc. at March 19, 2016 10:33 AM (9mTYi)

158 All these TV celebs have their little helpers that work cheap or free, adoring little servants that hope they get noticed. Kinda like their own like flock of sycophantic servants/bootlickers. Do they really learn anything, while running to get coffee and donuts for the "talent"?

Posted by: Illiniwek at March 19, 2016 10:33 AM (eUbDe)

159 I have a friend who is a glass blower and has a shop in Bmore that does very well. Of course, most of his customers are pot heads looking for unique bongs and pipes.

Posted by: Jubal Anderson Early at March 19, 2016 10:33 AM (RdP/w)

160 >>We could probably put a dent in the problem of young people not wanting
to get their hands dirty if we cut back on welfare programs. Having to
choose between work and starvation is a powerful motivator.

Also, having summer jobs that are not "raising awareness" or activism, but involve some sort of manual labor.

Posted by: Lizzy at March 19, 2016 10:33 AM (NOIQH)

161 153 But plumbers don't get to play with cool software..
Posted by: Needs to Know at March 19, 2016 10:32 AM (WWSaU)

A lot of the guck they dig out of pipes is soft.

Posted by: rickl at March 19, 2016 10:33 AM (sdi6R)

162 That's exactly the kind of institutional knowledge that is lost when a country loses its manufacturing base.
Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at March 19, 2016 09:10 AM (Zu3d9)

No, that kind of knowledge gets lost when the high school career counselors advise that college degrees ~~in practical applications, plus hard work~~ provide high salaries.

Posted by: Barefoot boy with cheeks of tan at March 19, 2016 10:34 AM (O4NI/)

163 >>>I want Revolutionary War era fashions to come back in style.

Yes!

Posted by: Lace Wigs at March 19, 2016 10:34 AM (8aOqE)

164 I made my youngest girl (and son) take drafting and CAD in high school. She was the only girl, but I insisted that those basic skills would at least get her a job while completing her civil engineering courses.

Posted by: mustbequantum at March 19, 2016 10:34 AM (MIKMs)

165 " Long beards get caught in things. Wedding rings can get caught in things."

Shirt tails, long sleeves, etc.

Came across an illustrated Nebraska farm safety report one time discussing the previous year's fatal farm accidents. I wished I never had. A PTO shaft will work you over before you can say "What the fu...!"

Posted by: Ricardo Kill at March 19, 2016 10:34 AM (x3MHz)

166 But plumbers don't get to play with cool software..
Posted by: Needs to Know
--------------

So, they probably get actual work done?

Posted by: Candy Crunch at March 19, 2016 10:34 AM (9mTYi)

167 I want Revolutionary War era fashions to come back in style.
----------------

So, duels, right?
Posted by: Mike Hammer, etc., etc. at March 19, 2016 10:33 AM (9mTYi)

Concealed carry tomahawks?

Posted by: ReactionaryMonster browsing Bravely at March 19, 2016 10:35 AM (1D4Ef)

168 OB,
Your plumber needs to check out a site called the Veterans Employment Center.
See www.vets.gov/veterans-employment-center

There are thousands of new Veterans leaving the Services every month. This site is a great place to find quality employees.

Posted by: Diogenes at March 19, 2016 10:35 AM (08Znv)

169 It is not just the trades. The residents who come through our training rotation have an expectation that they will work 6 hours, go to the noon lecture and be home by 4 pm.

When I trained I rounded on 10-17 patients daily at their level. We fight to get them up to 5 and 2 is much more typical.

And if their patient is having a crisis at 5 pm, they walk out and then ask the on-call attending the next morning "Whatever happened with Mr. X?"

I would have been embarassed to be left behind on rounds playing with my smart phone like a child (ok dating myself- we only had pagers any way but you get the drift.) Losing an adult resident on rounds and having to call them back in is not infrequent now.

We can't up their game because of the ridiculous rules that err on the side of making sure they never work "too many hours."

I grieve for my profession - we don't train doctors anymore. We're training DMV employees who can write prescriptions. Of course, with Obamacare, maybe we are supposed to be the DMV.

When we try to discuss it with the residency program we get "Oh older doctors having been saying that about our younger colleagues since the dawn of time." I'm sure that's true, but when it was being said about my class, we were still rounding on enough patients to get an education, and staying late to finish critical work or follow up on an acute problem. So we saw the course of the patient, learned to handle multiple issues simultaneously and learned, most importantly of all, that heavy sense of responsibility that should be the honor of every physician.

Now - "My shift is up, gotta go. GoT is on!" Yeesh.

Posted by: Lurking lurker. at March 19, 2016 10:35 AM (O108X)

170 Also, having summer jobs that are not "raising awareness" or activism, but involve some sort of manual labor.

I have a story about picking strawberries, but it would take too long to tell here.

Posted by: Donnybrook at March 19, 2016 10:35 AM (xXo2R)

171 @152
There's nothing mysterious about it.

"A source with knowledge of the situation, however, said that Fields was told last night that due to her ongoing dispute with the Donald Trump campaign she could not be an impartial panelist."

Only question is whether or not she was forced out at Trump-lover Bolling's urging or if it truly was a mutual decision.

Posted by: Y-not (@moxiemom) at March 19, 2016 10:36 AM (t5zYU)

172 All Hail Eris, check the comm center. Think you will like the traffic.

Posted by: Anna Puma at March 19, 2016 10:36 AM (tzULn)

173 21 "Does your campus have safe spaces?"
Posted by: PabloD at March 19, 2016 09:13 AM (6zbVX)

Yep. You have to wear OSHA approved fall-protection gear when you go out on the balcony.

Posted by: Barefoot boy with cheeks of tan at March 19, 2016 10:37 AM (O4NI/)

174 I loved woodshop and metal shop in school

I did too. I also wanted to get into the auto repair and AC and refrigeration classes my high school offered, but it would have killed my athletic ambitions which, in the end, paid for my college. I would have also been the only girl in those classes.

Posted by: no good deed at March 19, 2016 10:37 AM (GgxVX)

175 #123, Thank you Anna, this week's book thread is already in the can, but I'll keep that link for future use.

Posted by: OregonMuse at March 19, 2016 10:37 AM (P5x6u)

176

Hey, this is right in my wheelhouse.

I served a four-year toolmaking apprenticeship back in *mumblemumble*. I was gainfully employed, went to class once a week and got a nice raise when I completed it. This was in addition to the two years of machinist classes I took in HS.

Back when I had one of those job thingys, I wanted to hire a couple of recent vocational machinist skool grads to babysit a few CNC machines. That's when I discovered that there were no skools in the area.

When I was taking Machine Shop in HS, we were told that in order to complete a mechanical engineering degree in Germany, you had to spend your freshman year working in a machine shop. That made a great deal of sense and still does.

I've run across several mechanical engineers who didn't know the difference between specifying a two-place dimension and a three-place decimal on a drawing. The more decimals, the less allowable tolerance.

NAFTA, GATT and making our enemies the ChiComs our most favored trade nation has destroyed our manufacturing sector, as intended.

Do. Not. Get. Me. Started.

Posted by: BackwardsBoy at March 19, 2016 10:37 AM (LUgeY)

177 If you need your snake drained, I'm your huckleberry.

Posted by: Sandra Fluke at March 19, 2016 10:37 AM (/i7Ua)

178 "most of his customers are pot heads looking for unique bongs and pipes."

I guess they've got money too.

Posted by: Ricardo Kill at March 19, 2016 10:37 AM (x3MHz)

179 A PTO shaft will work you over before you can say "What the fu...!"
Posted by: Ricardo Kill
---------------

I have a story, but I'm not going to tell it. It's just too horrible.

Anyhow, shop machines, lathes especially, are just as sudden, and just as unforgiving, just smaller scale, i.e., the victim probably won't be deboned.

Posted by: Candy Crunch at March 19, 2016 10:38 AM (9mTYi)

180 Thought it might pique your interest Oregon Muse.

Jya ne minna.

Posted by: Anna Puma at March 19, 2016 10:39 AM (tzULn)

181
Came across an illustrated Nebraska farm safety
report one time discussing the previous year's fatal farm accidents. I
wished I never had. A PTO shaft will work you over before you can say
"What the fu...!"
Posted by: Ricardo Kill at March 19, 2016 10:34 AM (x3MHz)

There was a comedy bit about the Transvestite Farmers' Association of Argofay Iowa.
The motto was something like, "It takes a real man to drive a tractor in a ball-gown; that's how we live, and that's how we die"

Really funny until I started thinking about it.

Posted by: Kindltot at March 19, 2016 10:39 AM (XQHkt)

182 I would have also been the only girl in those classes.
Posted by: no good deed at March 19, 2016 10:37 AM (GgxVX)

How YOU doing?

Posted by: ReactionaryMonster browsing Bravely at March 19, 2016 10:39 AM (1D4Ef)

183 they were inevitably having take-out pizza for dinner.

Goes right along with never judging a construction contractor by the state of their home. LOL

Posted by: no good deed at March 19, 2016 10:40 AM (GgxVX)

184 >>Posted by: Lurking lurker

Just had this conversation yesterday. I believe there has been a noticeable decline in the quality of care. In particular the number of missed diagnosis.

Posted by: Aviator at March 19, 2016 10:41 AM (c7vUv)

185 I have a story about picking strawberries, but it would take too long to tell here.
Posted by: Donnybrook at March 19, 2016 10:35 AM (xXo2R)

I've spent time in high school "suckering" grape vines, i.e knocking off little shoots from the bottom of the plants called "suckers" because they don't do anything useful but suck up nutrients that could be going to the branches that produce actual grapes. The whole plant is healthier once the useless suckers are removed.

Posted by: OregonMuse at March 19, 2016 10:42 AM (P5x6u)

186 don't forget all the women's studies majors who work as bartenders and demand that the government help them pay off their thousands in student loans. Don't they count for something

Posted by: Mallflower at March 19, 2016 10:42 AM (qSIlh)

187

BTW, I got into manufacturing after scoring like 97% in spatial comprehension on the ASVAB test they administered in junior high school.

I bet that test never gets administered anymore. If it does, I'm not aware of it.

Posted by: BackwardsBoy at March 19, 2016 10:43 AM (LUgeY)

188 According to Bolling he discussed it with Fields and she thought it was best to lay low for awhile. Bolling said it would be a week by week decision. OTOH, she did remove all references to the show from her Twitter page.

Bottom line there is a conflict of interest especially with her filing a criminal complaint against Corey. Same with Kelly. You cant keep making comments how you are going to go after Trump and disparaging him and claim you are an unbiased moderator.

Posted by: Bruce With a Wang! at March 19, 2016 10:43 AM (iQIUe)

189 ASVAB is still administered.

Posted by: SMFH while circling the drain... at March 19, 2016 10:44 AM (rlfds)

190 >>A PTO shaft will work you over before you can say
"What the fu...!"

Yes they will.

Posted by: Aviator at March 19, 2016 10:44 AM (c7vUv)

191 NOOD thread is NOOD.

Posted by: Y-not (@moxiemom) at March 19, 2016 10:45 AM (t5zYU)

192 I hope no one thinks I'm one of those slacker dilettantes* knocking higher education. All hail Urania and Clio! I just don't think it's for everybody or necessary for every job.

* I am one.

Posted by: All Hail Eris, Literate Savage at March 19, 2016 10:45 AM (jR7Wy)

193 "Nobody wants to be a plumber making $250k"

To say that's 1% of plumbers would be an understatement.

I'm sure there are also mechanics that make half a million, and they're in charge of a Formula 1 team.

I agree with the premise of the article that nobody wants to be blue collar anymore, but few tradesman end their career wealthy.

Posted by: Lockback at March 19, 2016 10:45 AM (A3kYV)

194 Posted by: Anna Puma at March 19, 2016 10:36 AM (tzULn)
---
We'll need uniforms when the Horde retreats to the high seas!

Posted by: All Hail Eris, Literate Savage at March 19, 2016 10:47 AM (jR7Wy)

195 The whole plant is healthier once the useless suckers are removed.
Posted by: OregonMuse
--------------

This is about me, again, isn't it?

Posted by: Melissa Click at March 19, 2016 10:48 AM (9mTYi)

196

I have a story, but I'm not going to tell it. It's just too horrible.

Anyhow, shop machines, lathes especially, are just as sudden, and just as unforgiving, just smaller scale, i.e., the victim probably won't be deboned.

I was married to a nurse.

You get three guesses who they called when someone was injured in the shop and the first two don't count.

Yep, it's a very dangerous profession. We didn't even touch a machine for the first few weeks because we were learning safety habits. Drilling them into us, to coin a phrase.

Thankfully, I never got to see very many really gory injuries. 99% of them were due to inattention.

I still have both of my eyes and all of my fingers, but no sense, so there's that.

Posted by: BackwardsBoy at March 19, 2016 10:48 AM (LUgeY)

197 Came across an illustrated Nebraska farm safety
report one time discussing the previous year's fatal farm accidents. I
wished I never had. A PTO shaft will work you over before you can say
"What the fu...!"
Posted by: Ricardo Kill at March 19, 2016 10:34 AM (x3MHz)

My late mom's side of the family were Nebraska farmers.

I've lost a couple of cousins to farm accidents. In both cases, they drove the tractor in the morning out to one of the fields, and did not return home as expected. They were found many hours later, crushed underneath the overturned tractor. Nobody really knows what happened. Could be a driving accident, or maybe the tractor died, and somehow fell over as they were trying to fix it.

Posted by: OregonMuse at March 19, 2016 10:48 AM (P5x6u)

198 Just had this conversation yesterday. I believe there has been a noticeable decline in the quality of care. In particular the number of missed diagnosis.
Posted by: Aviator at March 19, 2016 10:41 AM (c7vUv)

Everything done by a protocol now. Check lists can be very helpful and good - no question, but if you are too flipping ignorant to know why this and that is on the checklist or why the checklist does not apply to your patient, it's useless.

You get a greater sense of the depth of disease complexity if you are the one to follow (and to answer for) the adverse outcomes. You get more competent and efficient if you have to "stay until the work is done" rather than paging your signout at 1 minute til the end of shift.

The thing is, I really do not sense a lot of happiness and satisfaction in our young shift-work mentality colleagues. Weeks were hard but you knowing you made a difference, were learning and growing in responsibility was immensely satisfying when I was in training.

Work hard and try to be a blessing to others - it's really the path to happiness.

Posted by: Lurking lurker. at March 19, 2016 10:48 AM (O108X)

199 I don't want to wear a powdered wig or kneepants.

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at March 19, 2016 10:49 AM (39g3+)

200

ASVAB is still administered.

In public skools? Color me surprised.

Posted by: BackwardsBoy at March 19, 2016 10:50 AM (LUgeY)

201 There is an older woman in my neighborhood who works as a waitress. She has to be in her late 70s by now. She is thin and has long big blond hair. I see her walking to work early in the ams and coming home. I live in a hilly area and I dont know how she does it. I see her walking down a real steep street. I think coming back she takes some stairs farther down where she can at least rest if she need it. But man she puts me to shame! Remember, she is on her feet all day plus the walking.

Posted by: Bruce With a Wang! at March 19, 2016 10:50 AM (iQIUe)

202
Whenever I try to grow a beard it gets so damned irritating that I never get past about two weeks.
Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo
------------
If you can make it past a month, you'll be golden.
It's been 6 months since I even looked at a razor, and I barely notice anymore.
I may be at the full on Phil Robertson look by late summer.

Posted by: Chi at March 19, 2016 10:52 AM (BNgss)

203 "NAFTA, GATT and making our enemies the ChiComs our most favored trade
nation has destroyed our manufacturing sector, as intended.

Do. Not. Get. Me. Started." Backwards Boy

One other thing I learned from this Ian Fletcher guy, is how these global trade deals were usually started for political reasons. Like after WW2 we didn't want all those countries to flip to Russian communism while in dire straits, and Nixon and China (iirc) was more about the cold war than serving Pepsi.

But then the corporatists and others got too entrenched and loved the easy money more than country. So we never went back to our founding, and what every other country does ... protect their own interest. If we are stupid there is no magic that makes this "equality" notion, beat the oligarchs or commies.

"Fletcher knows his stuff; but he can write, too, and does a great job of explaining the proposition in his title. For sure, nearly all economic theoreticians favor absolute free trade. His book persuades me they are wrong. Check it out." John Derbyshire

freetradedoesntwork.com/

Posted by: Illiniwek at March 19, 2016 10:52 AM (eUbDe)

204 NEVER. EVER.WEAR.LONG.HAIR. around any type of machinery. Put it in a pony tail, braid, hat, whatever.

Had a WC case. (poor girl) Not for the faint of heart.

Posted by: Infidel at March 19, 2016 10:54 AM (0Tr/s)

205 >>You get a greater sense of the depth of disease complexity if you are the one to follow (and to answer for) the adverse outcomes. You get more competent and efficient if you have to "stay until the work is done" rather than paging your signout at 1 minute til the end of shift.

Taking care of a really sick patient all day, all night and all day the next day is a much more valuable experience that bing the "day resident" or the "night resident" or the "I'm post call guy."

Posted by: Aviator at March 19, 2016 10:54 AM (c7vUv)

206 159 I have a friend who is a glass blower and has a shop in Bmore that does very well. Of course, most of his customers are pot heads looking for unique bongs and pipes.
Posted by: Jubal Anderson Early at March 19, 2016 10:33 AM (RdP/w)

Heh. I knew a guy in college who got a job glassblowing in a science lab, decided he liked it and started making products and art objects to sell. He gave me a pig-shaped pipe. While I no longer partake, I still have it in the attic. I'd put it on display, but it's brown with resin and I have no idea how to clean it.

Posted by: rickl at March 19, 2016 10:55 AM (sdi6R)

207 199 I don't want to wear a powdered wig or kneepants.
Posted by: Christopher Taylor at March 19, 2016 10:49 AM (39g3+)

How about a codpiece?

Posted by: OregonMuse at March 19, 2016 10:55 AM (P5x6u)

208 Bottom line there is a conflict of interest especially with her filing a criminal complaint against Corey. Same with Kelly. You cant keep making comments how you are going to go after Trump and disparaging him and claim you are an unbiased moderator.

Want to add that Fox by now acknowledging the conflict of interest and refusing to pull her, show bias, too.

Posted by: Bruce With a Wang! at March 19, 2016 10:55 AM (iQIUe)

209 Lotsa stuff on the trades in this thread, but it isn't just the trades. We cannot find enough engineers in the oil & gas end of the energy field, and the existing staff is getting grayer by the year. I imagine it's the same on the nuclear side of it.

These are professional engineering positions, top salary, and vital to 75% of the energy supply in the US. But our self-important "mankind is an evil interloper" culture deters students from going into this end of disciplines, even in the STEM courses.

Posted by: LCMS Rulz! at March 19, 2016 10:55 AM (O4NI/)

210 they were inevitably having take-out pizza for dinner.

Goes right along with never judging a construction contractor by the state of their home. LOL

Posted by: no good deed at March 19, 2016 10:40 AM (GgxVX)

I am old enough to remember the old saying about the cobbler's children going barefoot.

Posted by: mustbequantum at March 19, 2016 10:57 AM (MIKMs)

211 How about a codpiece?

Maybe a Black Russian one. It frightens the clergy.

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at March 19, 2016 10:57 AM (39g3+)

212 I've run across several mechanical engineers who didn't know the difference between specifying a two-place dimension and a three-place decimal on a drawing. The more decimals, the less allowable tolerance.

Like every damned day. Almost every single drawing I'm given. And I work at a really well-known physics lab.

To be fair, I also didn't have any machining experience when I was an ME, so I would have done the same thing.

Posted by: t-bird at March 19, 2016 10:57 AM (OLNwX)

213 Franksalterego,

My late husband's dad was a machinist at Mare Island! He worked there till he retired. Ted Pittman, ex Navy CPO, was on a gun boat in China before the Depression. Big shop there but you might have known him.

My late husband went through the machinists apprenticeship at Bingham Wllamette in Portland Or. They were building nuclear reactors, so they actually had places for apprentices. You actually do well as a machinist if you have some programming skills these days. We really need to follow Mike Rowes lead and get back to respecting work of any kind.

Posted by: Notsothoreau at March 19, 2016 10:58 AM (Lqy/e)

214 Posted by: rickl at March 19, 2016 10:55 AM (sdi6R)

soak in rubbing alcohol and clean with pipe cleaners.

Posted by: Infidel at March 19, 2016 10:58 AM (0Tr/s)

215 NAFTA, GATT and making our enemies the ChiComs our most favored trade
nation has destroyed our manufacturing sector, as intended.

Pretty much

I've got some issues with Trump, but his trade stances aren't one of them.

The Republican party could have captured the Rust Belt and the working class had it stood up for American jobs instead of a handful of CEOs.

Posted by: Lockback at March 19, 2016 10:59 AM (A3kYV)

216 I am very familiar with that apprentice program, have several family members that went through it. They put in 20 years and retired way before anyone else in our family did. Yes, you get dirty, and work hard. Yes, your hands become rough.

But they all did pretty good.

Posted by: navybrat at March 19, 2016 11:00 AM (8QGte)

217 Oh Christ here we go with the beards again.

Two words: Beard oil.

Posted by: Duncanthrax the Bellicose at March 19, 2016 11:03 AM (OF/aZ)

218 Farming is about twice as dangerous as police work. I'm sorta hobby semi-retired farmer, but have a couple tractors and learn to respect the power. PTOs, rolling over on a hill, push a downed tree wrong and a big limb can spring back and disable ... mostly fun, but must pay attention.

Posted by: Illiniwek at March 19, 2016 11:03 AM (eUbDe)

219 204 NEVER. EVER.WEAR.LONG.HAIR. around any type of machinery. Put it in a pony tail, braid, hat, whatever.

Posted by: Infidel at March 19, 2016 10:54 AM (0Tr/s)

Beards, too, (despite all the fun they've been having with beards up above); the filter masks don't seal well over a beard. And if you lean in too closely to inspect your work...

Posted by: LCMS Rulz! at March 19, 2016 11:03 AM (O4NI/)

220 We really need to follow Mike Rowes lead and get back to respecting work of any kind.

Even hear I read people speaking of some kinds of jobs with contempt or mockery. No work is bad unless its immoral or illegal. Working that cash register at McDonald's is just as noble and right as carving a statue or brain surgery. There's nothing low or bad about digging ditches or cleaning floors. Its good, honest work.

Which brings me to something that came up last night and is very related here:

What if everyone who will not vote for Hillary (i.e. the people that the sponge class live off of) just took a week off? A general strike of the makers. Somewhere around late October, to make a point about rejecting the left's ideas of work, culture, society, and our future.

Just a general strike, with clear statements about not being used any more, not taking it any longer, not supporting everyone who just doesn't care to work any more, and not being the target of the left's continual hatred and attacks. People all across the country shutting down the entire damn system. no more busses, taxis, planes, trains. No more construction, repair, maintenance. No more manufacturing, no more stocking shelves, no more deliveries, no more running the power plants, no more ANYTHING people count on, for a week.

See what happens when we flex our muscles, America? Keep that in mind when you vote. Remember us. We keep things going. We will not be happy if you vote to screw us any harder.

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at March 19, 2016 11:04 AM (39g3+)

221 111 Voter Mom, check the EMT. Apparently the CDC has zombie preparedness plans.
Posted by: Anna Puma at March 19, 2016 10:13 AM (tzULn)

I saw that.

Posted by: @votermom at March 19, 2016 11:05 AM (cbfNE)

222
Two words: Beard oil.

Beard glitter, broseph. I was into it before it became cool.

Posted by: Hipster douchebag at March 19, 2016 11:06 AM (39g3+)

223 Was a heavy equipment mechanic at a Caterpillar dealership as my first real job. Lots of on the job training. learned how to be a machinist, conventional then CNC. Played gypsy all over the country. never had a problem landing a good job. Almost no kids want to get into this trade any more. Like others have said, completion is very satisfying

Posted by: Wyoming Lurker at March 19, 2016 11:07 AM (a0m5R)

224 Just a general strike, with clear statements about not being used any more, not taking it any longer, not supporting everyone who just doesn't care to work any more, and not being the target of the left's continual hatred and attacks. People all across the country shutting down the entire damn system. no more busses, taxis, planes, trains. No more construction, repair, maintenance. No more manufacturing, no more stocking shelves, no more deliveries, no more running the power plants, no more ANYTHING people count on, for a week.

I find your ideas intriguing, and wish to subscribe to your newsletter.

Posted by: Ayn Rand at March 19, 2016 11:07 AM (sdi6R)

225 Posted by: Infidel at March 19, 2016 10:58 AM (0Tr/s)
-----------------
So, how did the phone call go??????

Posted by: Chi at March 19, 2016 11:10 AM (BNgss)

226 Will the apprentices be trained to train their H1B replacements? Or will the next Ford Class carrier be built in Commie China?

Posted by: Headless Body of Agnew at March 19, 2016 11:11 AM (FtrY1)

227

What if everyone who will not vote for Hillary (i.e. the people that the sponge class live off of) just took a week off? A general strike of the makers. Somewhere around late October, to make a point about rejecting the left's ideas of work, culture, society, and our future.

As usual, there's a song about that very idea. This one is from the Canuck prog/pop band Klaatu, Everybody Took a Holiday -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_O0ltzBlLs

Posted by: BackwardsBoy at March 19, 2016 11:11 AM (LUgeY)

228 >>A PTO shaft will work you over before you can say
"What the fu...!"

Yes they will.

Posted by: Aviator at March 19, 2016 10:44 AM (c7vUv)

Indeed it will. I went to a funeral a couple of years ago for a fellow oil patch hand who was also a rancher. He was feeding cattle on a friend's ranch, and got caught up in a PTO and killed. RIP, Lyle.

Posted by: Alberta Oil Peon at March 19, 2016 11:15 AM (/i7Ua)

229

I'd put it on display, but it's brown with resin and I have no idea how to clean it.

Soak it in some sort of alcohol that's not Valu-Rite Brand Vodka. That stuff will melt glass.

Or so I've been told...

Posted by: BackwardsBoy at March 19, 2016 11:16 AM (LUgeY)

230 Chi, no answer. Left a vm. It's in God's hands now.

Posted by: Infidel at March 19, 2016 11:18 AM (0Tr/s)

231 BackwardsBoy,

Around here (Ft Hood-Killeen), I know they're administered. Cannot speak for other areas.

Posted by: SMFH while circling the drain... at March 19, 2016 11:18 AM (rlfds)

232 I hope it turns out well, Infidel.

Posted by: rickl at March 19, 2016 11:23 AM (sdi6R)

233 Lurking lurker, All the medical people in my family say the same thing. They also resent that they can't manage their patients in the hospital--that goes to the hospitalist, who doesn't know the patient at all, weakening the doctor/patient relationship.

But this is what the bureaucrats want: people who are responsive to the rules in a manual, not to a personal code of personal honor.

Posted by: PJ at March 19, 2016 11:23 AM (cHuNI)

234

Around here (Ft Hood-Killeen), I know they're administered. Cannot speak for other areas.

I found a practice test for it whilst doing an Intarwebz search.

IIRC, I took mine at the end of 9th grade and signed up for VoTech machine shop classes as a result. I went to HS for half a day and tech school for the other half. I got more credits for taking the shop classes, if I'd gone to summer skool after 10th and 11th grade, I'da graduated a whole year early.

However, I wasn't that industrious. I spent my senior year in HS in bands and theater. And chasing girls.

Posted by: BackwardsBoy at March 19, 2016 11:23 AM (LUgeY)

235 We needed our laundry tub snaked--Steve the Pirate tried, for real. The expert came out and realized that the 70-year-old galvanized pipe under our basement floor had collapsed. I'm grateful that it was the laundry tub backing up and not the toilet.
A week of jackhammers, torn up tile, a discussion or two with our insurance agent, and inconvenience later, we've got PVC from start to finish.

The plumber himself is north of 50 and got a second opinion from the guy who taught him. His grandson, however, could only make it for a day to help carry bags of concrete down and rubble up a flight of stairs. He'd rather go work on computers.

Posted by: Steve the Pirate's Wife at March 19, 2016 11:25 AM (TnZp4)

236 Thanks all!

Posted by: Infidel at March 19, 2016 11:26 AM (0Tr/s)

237 71---There are a lot of native-born special snowflakes who won't be economic competition in plumbing because of class bias and the fear of occasionally scenting poo. Third World immigrants have no such bias nor fear.

Posted by: torquewrench at March 19, 2016 09:45 AM (noWW6)
------------------
Class bias.

My Panamanian father came from a white collar family --- accountants, managers, teachers, the occasional lawyer. Middle income, for the most part, but self-consciously "burgesia," above the riff-raff who worked with their hands. My Cuban mother came from a wealthy family.

Neither one had ANY manual skills. NONE. My father didn't even own a screw-driver or a hammer. My mother never washed a dish. You had servants or you hired someone (cheap!) to hang a picture or change an overhead light-bulb.

Quite a shock when they moved to the US in 1970 and had to adapt to the servantless, DIY culture of the AMERICAN white-collar class. These Americans were not so far removed from their blue-collar and agricultural roots. They knew how to do things --- but what was more shocking is that they LIKED to do these things. There was no shame at all. There was great pride in it.

My father saw teachers at the school where he taught ---including even the principal --- mowing their own lawns, building bookshelves. He saw doctors and lawyers finishing basements, installing new faucets, changing the oil in their cars. I don't think the average American knows how bizarre and special this is, how unlike the rest of the world, how wonderful!

I think the US is still special in this regard but there's no doubt that it is changing with urbanization, decline of agriculture and home ownership, illegal alien labor, etc.
Fewer white-collar types are competent.

And then there is the great socio-political shift, where the worker and farmer, formerly celebrated by the Democratic Party, became knuckle-dragging "hardhats" and "rednecks." The new ruling class of managers, clerks, bureaucrats, activists, and intellectualoids have less and less regard for manual laborers and manual labor in general.

The trends are dismaying.

Posted by: Margarita DeVille at March 19, 2016 11:32 AM (T/5A0)

238 I don't want people to "go Galt" and disappear. Just a one-week reminder. Just one quick notice to people, and do it en masse, a General Strike of everyone at the same time to make a point. Rand presumed people would just do it, for months or even years. We need to organize and do it just for a short time as a statement. I really think this is not just feasible but would be a pretty significant statement.

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at March 19, 2016 11:33 AM (39g3+)

239
I'm very thankful to have spent a 40-some year career doing something I loved (and yet do).

I take great pride in knowing that I'm pretty damn good at it.

Because I made the promise to become the best possible.

Posted by: irongrampa at March 19, 2016 11:41 AM (P/8aq)

240 237
Quite a shock when they moved to the US in 1970 and had to adapt to the servantless, DIY culture of the AMERICAN white-collar class. These Americans were not so far removed from their blue-collar and agricultural roots. They knew how to do things --- but what was more shocking is that they LIKED to do these things. There was no shame at all. There was great pride in it.

Posted by: Margarita DeVille at March 19, 2016 11:32 AM (T/5A0)

Great comment, Margarita.

I'm a total klutz when it comes to working with my hands. I don't know anything. But a couple of years ago when my bathtub faucet developed a leak, I looked at a couple of YouTube videos and thought, "I should be able to do this."

Long story short, I went to a plumbing supply store, bought the necessary materials, and replaced the valve myself. It actually works!

Posted by: rickl at March 19, 2016 11:54 AM (sdi6R)

241 Posted by: Margarita DeVille at March 19, 2016 11:32 AM (T/5A0)

Thank you for sharing that. Sarah Hoyt has also written about Latin culture's view of manual labor but I hadn't realized it extended to things we don't really think of *as* labor here.

Posted by: Polliwog the 'Ette at March 19, 2016 11:57 AM (GDulk)

242 Posted by: rickl at March 19, 2016 11:54 AM (sdi6R)

Congrats on stepping up to the challenge.

Posted by: Polliwog the 'Ette at March 19, 2016 11:59 AM (GDulk)

243 On the other hand, last weekend my water heater started leaking. There was no way I wanted to tackle that. It's a gas heater, and I'd be liable to blow up the house if I messed with it. So I wrote a check for $1421 to a couple of guys who knew what they were doing, and didn't look back.

A man's gotta know his limitations.

Posted by: rickl at March 19, 2016 12:10 PM (sdi6R)

244 "He lamented to me recently that he cannot find a young kid to learn his
trade. Nobody wants to be a plumber making $250k, when they could be web
designers making $35k!"
-----------------------------------------------------
My brother in law runs a business installing and servicing restaurant equipment. He has the same problem. He can't find people who want to work. They have their own training program, so no skill required. His top technicians clear $100,000 a year, but the younger techs want to punch out at three to go drink.

Posted by: elliot at March 19, 2016 12:11 PM (9Y3DU)

245 "I looked at a couple of YouTube videos and thought, "I should be able to do this." rickl

YouTube is really useful for any project. Even when I think I know how to do it, I usually find something I was doing wrong, or how to do it better, or some trick to make it easier.

Posted by: Illiniwek at March 19, 2016 12:14 PM (eUbDe)

246 This thread is not complete without the famous Robert A. Heinlein quote:

A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.

I'm utterly incompetent at most of those things, but it's a goal to aspire to.

Posted by: rickl at March 19, 2016 12:25 PM (sdi6R)

247 YouTube is a great source on how to DIY, changed my Transmission Control Module after watching some videos and researching what was wrong with my 1999 dodge Caravan after it went into Limp Mode.

I was also able to snake my pipes after watching some videos on how to do it, saved me 250 dollars.

My one Nephew does not even know how to change a tire or oil. I have a 3 year old and he has already helped me fix the minivan by holding the light for me.

Posted by: Patrick From Ohio at March 19, 2016 12:26 PM (c4yY7)

248

I'm utterly incompetent at most of those things, but it's a goal to aspire to.

Keep working at it, y'all. Working with your hands can be a lot of fun if, like anything else in life, you approach it with the right attitude and a little bit of confidence.

Posted by: BackwardsBoy at March 19, 2016 12:30 PM (LUgeY)

249 We are looking at getting a new Minivan, I know the 99 Dodge won't last long, and I thought about the new Chrysler Hybrid minivan. I watched some videos on replacing the batteries on these cars, and the number of people.
1 not wearing rubber gloves
2 rubber shoes.

One guy was doing this without any shoes, it like he's asking for it.

After watching these videos, thier is no way i will buy one. I don't like the idea of working on any car that can accidentally electrocute you. My brother-in-law worked for a Ford dealership and they had those Shepard hooks so they could pull the mechanics off the Hybrid car.

Posted by: Patrick From Ohio at March 19, 2016 12:39 PM (c4yY7)

250
YouTube is really useful for any project. Even when I think I know how to do it, I usually find something I was doing wrong, or how to do it better, or some trick to make it easier.
Posted by: Illiniwek at March 19, 2016 12:14 PM (eUbDe)

I started watching ChrisFix videos, I never could get the inside of my windshield clean, he uses a "magic eraser" to get the grease off the windshield then you can use a glass cleaner.

I saw his Seafoam engine cleaner video and I soo want to try that just to smoke up my neighborhood.

Posted by: Patrick From Ohio at March 19, 2016 12:45 PM (c4yY7)

251 Margarita deVille -- Yep. That is what I remember growing up and the generic 'hispanic' is really crazy. When I was growing up, parents from educated classes had strokes when their children were classes with the 'peasants'. For kids in my neighborhood right now, most families are 2-3 generations, so the bilingual education to them is code for illiterate in two languages.

Posted by: mustbequantum at March 19, 2016 12:46 PM (MIKMs)

252 Plumber step aside, my honey truck guy hoovers up 3 to 4 septic tanks a day at around 400 bucks each for around 8 grand a week for a yearly paycheck of around 350 thousand. It is horrific smelling work but he owns two homes one up near aspen and he has virtually every man toy he could want. All he needed to start was a septic truck and a dream.

Posted by: rumcrook at March 19, 2016 01:43 PM (uiVGU)

253 YouTube is a great source on how to DIY.

Yes, now I can do a few things around the house so when something goes wrong I don't have to burst into tears and call some expensive repairman.

Posted by: PJ at March 19, 2016 03:25 PM (cHuNI)

254 250 grande as a Plummer? Lol.

Less than 1%.

The article has some good points, but this example is silly.

Posted by: Community Organizer at March 19, 2016 04:38 PM (Bjvsz)

255 I graduated from Newport News Shipbuilding Apprentice School in 1979 as a machinist. I work at a nearby small contractor ( we do NNS and Elecric Boat work/ Virginia class submarines) . In my 41 years I have ALWAYS had more work than I could handle and always plenty of overtime. We cannot find enough qualified machinists to do the work. I have serious concerns about our national defense because very few young people are going into these types of trades. The shop I work in is full of men with 30+ years experience and there are few younger guys coming along to replace us at retirement. This is not the kind of work you can do without formal training and many years experience. Management from NNS and EB have told us it is an industrywide problem. Within 5 to 10 years there is going to be major problems getting these ships built and maintained because we won't have qualified people to do it. We need to stop pushing college so much and promote the trades as viable alternatives for those who are more mechanically inclined.

Posted by: Jethro B. at March 19, 2016 05:30 PM (AS1h7)

256 If the roots on the spruce tree in my front yard clog up my sewer pipe, (it's happened twice in the past 25 years, and will again roughly 10 years from now), the plumber I call had damned well better come on a weekend if that's when it happens. He will if he ever wants me to use him again. Your $250K plumber can overcharge old ladies for fancy toilets they don't need Mon to Fri 9-4 til the cows come home, I want a tradesman that is willing to do what it takes, when it needs to be done. Speaking as a fellow tradesman here, I don't demand from my apprentices or anyone else what I am not willing to give from myself.

Posted by: Jonneufeld at March 20, 2016 11:15 AM (VkSk3)

257 Got a friend who's a chimney sweep. Mostly what he does these days is dryer vents - at $89.00 per.
Calculate what he makes on a five building complex with 50 units per building. And it takes all of 10 minutes or so per vent.
He got tired a while back (when he was doing middle SIX figures per year) so he brought in someone who expressed an interest in buying the business.
He can't get the guy to put in a full day's work(which would NET him anywhere from $1500 to $2500.
If I had the chance 30 years ago, I'd have quit my job as a field engineer and hired on to clean dryer vents, heh, heh.

Posted by: emdfl at March 22, 2016 07:39 PM (CMxLo)

258 Almost forgot. Occasionally he rebuilds chimneys - for which he gets anywhere from $6000 to $15,000.

Posted by: emdfl at March 22, 2016 07:42 PM (CMxLo)

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