Planned Parenthood Representatives Tell Students To "Ignore" the Science of Human Life

Turns out the science isn't quite settled, at least in some fields, and those fields are, coincidentally I'm sure, areas in which science undermines a key liberal agenda item.

Then we suddenly start hearing that "science is not ultimate truth" (which, by the way, it's not) and that there's a lot of disagreement among scientists.

Posted by: Ace at 12:45 PM

Comments

(Jump to bottom of comments)

1 First again, to wit, screw you.

Posted by: Sub-Tard at October 13, 2011 12:48 PM (0M3AQ)

2 I've noticed that the people who believe in science only believe in the kind of science that has to be believed in.

Posted by: AmishDude at October 13, 2011 12:49 PM (73tyQ)

3 Unless there is consensus physics is merely conjecture. I was taught this by people who went to Ivy League schools so it must be true. Am I right?

Posted by: Sub-Tard at October 13, 2011 12:50 PM (0M3AQ)

4 Nothing new. They are fundamentally a death cult. Always have been.

Posted by: Alex at October 13, 2011 12:50 PM (gqTOC)

5 I read where Romney and his wife have been contributors to Planned Parenthood in the past.
If this is true........then this is going to really bite him with social conservatives. ....This, plus his flip-flop on being proChoice.

Posted by: ConservativeMenAreJustHotter at October 13, 2011 12:52 PM (AtOcq)

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I cannot help but notice their pro-abortion position is evolutionarily selected
against.

Posted by: C. Darwin at October 13, 2011 12:52 PM (8sjLu)

7 Since we wanted our children all along, they were treated as babies all along. Doc pointed out face, heart, hands, etc. at ultrasound around 8 weeks, maybe less. Those don't exist if you don't want a child.

Posted by: Barb the Evil Genius at October 13, 2011 12:53 PM (MyByM)

8 So lemmie git this straight:
1) Libs decide when science is science and when to apply it
2) Libs want obama to suspend the constitution
3) Libs don't want to defend the Country

OK Now I remember why I am a conservative

Posted by: nevergiveup at October 13, 2011 12:53 PM (i6RpT)

9
Liberterian Republican here who refuses to buy the pro-choice/pro-abortion crap, Planned Parenthood can die. My sis in law got in a tiffy with them when she was talking about birth control w/ them. They mentioned her looking at plans if a baby comes and she said she'd keep it. They seem mad at that answer and tried talking "family planning" (aka abortion planning) if it came to that. she stormed off the place.
of course seeing who's she's married to I really hope that birth control works.

Posted by: Team Mitt's AuthorLMendez (Ban Curious) at October 13, 2011 12:54 PM (3XDPM)

10
We're funding this shit?

Posted by: Soothsayer at October 13, 2011 12:54 PM (sqkOB)

11 One exception -- liberals all agree that global warming is caused by an excess of phlogiston. The science is settled.

Posted by: Minnie Rodent at October 13, 2011 12:55 PM (S3rrR)

12 I'm not going to comment beyond this, because I will rage and rage and rage if I talk about Planned Parenthood for more than a moment, but:
Planned Parenthood is evil, as are it's death cultist followers. They care as much about "women's health" as I do about water polo statistics (that is, not at all). They are purely political and have no interest in what's best for a woman or her unborn child. May they rot in Hell forever.
*going to listen to angry music to cool off*

Posted by: MWR, Proud Tea(rrorist) Party Hobbit at October 13, 2011 12:55 PM (4df7R)

13
This is the shit for which Obama wants people to make 'sacrifices.'

Posted by: Soothsayer at October 13, 2011 12:55 PM (sqkOB)

14 Full debate here: http://eternityimpact.blogspot.com/2010/10/debate-video.html

Posted by: tdpwells at October 13, 2011 12:56 PM (7vA7k)

15
shhhh, shhhh, peons

everything will be fine when you live in Walden II

follow me, right this way, shhhh

Posted by: Soothsayer at October 13, 2011 12:58 PM (sqkOB)

16 Sperm meets egg. Across all species this arrangement is necessary to create life. What else could it be but life? If nothing is done to prevent the zygote from becoming an embryo, life is an inevitable result of this pairing. Has been through all of history.

Posted by: Osama bin Truck Monkey, TEArrorist Son of a Bitch at October 13, 2011 12:58 PM (jucos)

17 Moloch is a jealous god.

Posted by: toby928Š at October 13, 2011 12:58 PM (IfkGz)

18 Okay, just to see their heads explode, I want to ask liberals (especially Planned Parenthood, in this case) "Well then, what is ultimate truth?"

Because, as a Christian specifically, if I can get them talking about "Truth," I get to win.

Also, "science" is not ultimate truth, but it does reveal ultimate Truth (to some degree, at least). Newton's Second Law is Truth. The Law of Gravity is Truth. 2 + 2 = 4 (Arithmetic is required for Mathematics, which are required for Science) is Truth.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) is tired beyond tired of the trolls at October 13, 2011 12:58 PM (8y9MW)

19 5
I read where Romney and his wife have been contributors to Planned Parenthood in the past.
If this is true........then this is going to really bite him with
social conservatives. ....This, plus his flip-flop on being proChoice.

Posted by: ConservativeMenAreJustHotter at October 13, 2011 12:52 PM (AtOcq)

"Former Gov. Mitt Romney's wife, Ann, gave an $150 donation to the
abortion-rights group Planned Parenthood in 1994, at a time when Romney
considered himself effectively "pro-choice," the Romney campaign
confirmed today." - ABC News May 9 2007

Posted by: Infidel in Utah at October 13, 2011 12:59 PM (90BnA)

20 @19
Not a Mitt fan, as you all know, but I tend to not assign blame to candidates for what their spouses do, within reason.

Posted by: Y-not at October 13, 2011 01:01 PM (5H6zj)

21 Also, "science" is not ultimate truth, but it does
reveal ultimate Truth (to some degree, at least). Newton's Second Law
is Truth. The Law of Gravity is Truth. 2 + 2 = 4 (Arithmetic is
required for Mathematics, which are required for Science) is Truth.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) is tired beyond tired of the trolls at October 13, 2011 12:58 PM (8y9MW)
Obama is a SCOAMF = Truth

Posted by: Infidel in Utah at October 13, 2011 01:02 PM (90BnA)

22 @20
Word.

Posted by: Hillary Clinton at October 13, 2011 01:02 PM (jucos)

23
Posted by: Infidel in Utah at October 13, 2011 12:59 PM (90BnA)
Laura Bushis pro-choice too, just saying...

Posted by: Team Mitt's AuthorLMendez (Ban Curious) at October 13, 2011 01:02 PM (3XDPM)

24 Obama is a SCOAMF = Truth

It's certainly good short-hand for truth. As others have pointed out though, it, itself, is not Truth. Obama doesn't really stutter so much as he stammers (there's a difference), and, in regard to his actual goals, he hasn't failed all that badly.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) is tired beyond tired of the trolls at October 13, 2011 01:03 PM (8y9MW)

25 19 Infidel,
A $150 donation back in 1994? Is that all? .....That's not a big deal, then.
But Mitt's flip-flop on the issue is.

Posted by: ConservativeMenAreJustHotter at October 13, 2011 01:03 PM (AtOcq)

26 @20

Hmm. I don't know about that. I always say "look who's giving the blow jobs and you'll see who really sets the agenda."

I would be very wary of a President with a liberal wife. Very wary.

That's why for all his RINO-ness, I would think Christie would be a good prez. His wife is a Villa alum and an awesome lady.

Posted by: HeartlessBlackOrchid at October 13, 2011 01:04 PM (SB0V2)

27 Great, so our choice for the next President will likely be either someone who couldn't be more morally objectionable if he were an actual abortionist (Obama), and a guy who's probably an abortion enthusiast when he's being honest (Romney).

Terrific.

Posted by: Kensington at October 13, 2011 01:04 PM (/AHDz)

28 In the Bible, they tak about the evil god Baal. Baal was big news with the Carthaginains and Phoenicians. They sacrificed human children to him by casting them into the fire. They were religious fanatics, not like the fine folks at Planned Parenthood.

Posted by: WalrusRex at October 13, 2011 01:04 PM (jUZRg)

29
But Mitt's flip-flop on the issue is. Posted by: ConservativeMenAreJustHotter at October 13, 2011 01:03 PM (AtOcq) +1 i'm more concerned w/ his flip-flop on it then a donation by his wife

Posted by: Team Mitt's AuthorLMendez (Ban Curious) at October 13, 2011 01:04 PM (3XDPM)

30 Lefties think science is really cool unless it doesn't support their worldview. The science of unborn human life is one example. Biological gender differences which result in the superiority of men in certain types of learning and reasoning abilities (higher math, prominently) is another.

Posted by: Pavel at October 13, 2011 01:05 PM (bRdb3)

31 Has anyone mentioned that Mitt Romney sucks bad, really, really bad?

Posted by: Unblinking tree rat of personal destruction at October 13, 2011 01:05 PM (OlN4e)

32 in regard to his actual goals, he hasn't failed all that badly.
True. Too bad his goals involve him becoming El Presidente Magnifico for life.

Posted by: Secundus at October 13, 2011 01:06 PM (96ems)

33 OT, but I see up on Drudge that maybe it'll soon be Newt's turn to be the Flavor of the Month...
Would he name Pelosi to be his VP, though??

Posted by: CoolCzech at October 13, 2011 01:07 PM (Iaxlk)

34 @26
I understand that, but it just doesn't sound like a $150 donation from a couple as wealthy as they are means much. If she was sitting on the board of PP or doing something more active, maybe.

I don't really get the attack on Romney from the 'social con' (for want of a better word) perspective. He's a pretty darned devout Mormon from what I can see. Although there are liberal Mormons, even those tend to still be traditionalists (if they are active not Jack Mormons).

I think he's something of a nanny stater. That's my bigger concern with him when it comes to social stuff. He blurs the lines between what private entities should do and what government should do.

Posted by: Y-not at October 13, 2011 01:08 PM (5H6zj)

35 Obama is a stuttering clusterfuck of a miserable failure.

Posted by: negentropy at October 13, 2011 01:08 PM (27KAF)

36 31 Has anyone mentioned that Mitt Romney sucks bad, really, really bad?
Not yet...not in this thread. ....So thank you. I concur.

"Somebody wake up Hicks"

Posted by: ConservativeMenAreJustHotter at October 13, 2011 01:09 PM (AtOcq)

37 23

Posted by: Infidel in Utah at October 13, 2011 12:59 PM (90BnA)
Laura Bushis pro-choice too, just saying...

Posted by: Team Mitt's AuthorLMendez (Ban Curious) at October 13, 2011 01:02 PM (3XDPM)
The reason it's a big deal for Mitt's wife to contribute to PP is that it goes against what the Prophet of the Mormon Church has publicly stated in their general conferences they hold twice a year. The majority of active Mormons absolutely oppose abortions. Believe me, I live here and hear it on the TV and read about in the local online newspapers.

Posted by: Infidel in Utah at October 13, 2011 01:09 PM (90BnA)

38 It's certainly good short-hand for truth. As others have pointed out though, it, itself, is not Truth.

If you're going to nit-pick this one, then I'll nit-pick your choice of Newton's Second Law. It's not Truth, but a good first-order approximation. (See Einstein, Albert.)

Posted by: Meiczyslaw at October 13, 2011 01:09 PM (bjRNS)

39 Hmm. I don't know about that. I always say "look who's giving the blow jobs and you'll see who really sets the agenda."
Wait, Kal Penn and Chris Matthews are running the country?
It all makes sense now...

Posted by: Secundus at October 13, 2011 01:10 PM (96ems)

40 "Ignore the Science!, follow the River.

Posted by: High Aldwin of Prepartum Baby Killing at October 13, 2011 01:10 PM (DOq4L)

41 In the Bible, they tak about the evil god Baal.
Baal was big news with the Carthaginains and Phoenicians. They
sacrificed human children to him by casting them into the fire. They
were religious fanatics, not like the fine folks at Planned Parenthood.

Posted by: WalrusRex

Ba'al just means 'master.' It wasn't a specific deity. Each tribe had their own 'master.'

And the child sacrifice, um, where are you getting that?

Posted by: Kommendant Wasserman-Schultz at October 13, 2011 01:11 PM (kt1UQ)

42 Yeah, Y-Not I see what you mean. That seems like a significant donation to me, but I could be missing context here. It's weird if they're Mormons, tho, isn't it?

They're probably not really religious at all. She may or may not be liberal. It doesn't bode well.

But I do think it matters, the character of the spouse and/or "special friend." The absolute greatest influence on a person (unless they're celibate!)

Posted by: HeartlessBlackOrchid at October 13, 2011 01:12 PM (SB0V2)

43 I was pro-abortion for a long time. The single thing that changed my mind was seeing the sonogram of my first son. There he was, alive and moving inside of my wife and he could have been legally killed and I wouldn't have been able to stop it.
Medical technology is the single biggest threat to the abortion industry.

Posted by: Max Entropy at October 13, 2011 01:12 PM (NwTXA)

44 Speaking of science not settled ...

WOLF CREEK SKI AREA, COLO. - The ski season in Colorado officially began on Oct. 8.
It was announced not with the din of snow-making machines pasting a
path of man-made snow between dirt and rocks, but the distant whoops of
avalanche-control bombs. And accompanied by heaps of powder.In a coup that will long be remembered in skiing circles, Wolf Creek
announced it would be the first resort in the U.S. to open, the earliest
opening in resort history.

Posted by: Islamic Rage Boy at October 13, 2011 01:12 PM (e8kgV)

45 My sister had an ultrasound at 9 weeks ... arms,legs, heartbeat, little head...moving around...
That 'fetus' is now 20 and in college.
All it took for me to become pro life was that ultrasound.
Planned Parenthood is pure evil.

Posted by: Jumbo Jogging Shrimp at October 13, 2011 01:12 PM (qjUnn)

46 Walrus, Moloch was a similar god for them. And one of the history books I used when homeschooling downplayed it, saying we didn't actually *know* there was child sacrifice, etc. Can't admit to evil even thousands of years ago

Posted by: Barb the Evil Genius at October 13, 2011 01:12 PM (MyByM)

47 1) The moment a sperm fertilizes an egg, a being with a unique genetic code is created. This exact genetic code can never be re-created, even with the same two parents.

2) Rick Perry and the Texas Legislature cut funding to Planned Parenthood.

3) Rick Perry and the Texas Legislature passed the "sonogram bill", requiring doctors of women seeking abortions to perform a sonogram.

Just sayin'

Posted by: mpurinTexas, Evil Conservanatrix, supports Rick Perry, bitch at October 13, 2011 01:12 PM (pY3GI)

48 Isn't it counter-productive to claim that you want to end abortions, but also that you are against the use of condoms, birth control, and non-abstinence sex education? Aren't you going against your own cause by not supporting the most effective ways to stop unwanted pregnancies?

Posted by: That One Guy at October 13, 2011 01:12 PM (VETVS)

49 And they (the liberals) have never explained satisfactorily why it is OK to execute an innocent unborn child, but not OK to execute an adult murderer.

Posted by: Minnie Rodent at October 13, 2011 01:12 PM (S3rrR)

50 Also, "science" is not ultimate truth, but it does
reveal ultimate Truth (to some degree, at least). Newton's Second Law
is Truth. The Law of Gravity is Truth. 2 + 2 = 4 (Arithmetic is
required for Mathematics, which are required for Science) is Truth.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) is tired beyond tired of the trolls at October 13, 2011 12:58 PM (8y9MW)
Mathematics is metaphysical certainty. Science is "best guess".Now some of those guesses are great and they stand up to some of the most rigorous tests.For instance, general relativity and quantum mechanics have been subject to some of the most exotic tests possible.And they cannot both be true.You cannot "believe in" both theories because they are known to produce a contradiction. But that's what happens when you actually apply the scientific method, rather than treating credentialed scientists as oracles.

Posted by: AmishDude at October 13, 2011 01:13 PM (73tyQ)

51 "science is not ultimate truth"
There is a reason for this. George Soros wrote about this in his book "Open Society: Reforming Global Capitalism." This gets pretty complex, but ultimately it's a political agenda to undermine Free Will and to control behavior, where everybody ends up beleiving "Truth" to be whatever thegovernment decides is "Truth" in an effort to break free of traditional, national, and religous norms.
It is also found in his early writings and other books like, "The crisis of Global Capitalism: Open Society Endangered"

Posted by: Jimi at October 13, 2011 01:13 PM (JMsOK)

52 Fort Lewis College is one of the premier party schools in the country, because it is located in Durango, Colorado, and is attended mainly by trust fund babies. It is not unusual to find that they hold completely conflicting ideas, i.e. the science is settled and cannot be questioned as opposed to when a fetus's heart begins to beat. Since premature babies can survive as early as 22 weeks, I'd say their hearts begin to beat much earlier than 24 weeks.

Posted by: huerfano at October 13, 2011 01:14 PM (fecOD)

53 Not a Mitt fan, as you all know, but I tend to not assign blame to candidates for what their spouses do, within reason.

Posted by: Y-not at October 13, 2011 01:01 PM (5H6zj)
Mitt Romney was at a Planned Parenthood fundraiser when his wife made the donation.But, as I was admonished the other day, it's okay, because Mitt was always personally Pro-life and was obviously just saying what he needed to to get elected in blue MA.

Posted by: Bevel Lemelisk at October 13, 2011 01:14 PM (FkKjr)

54 An 'Inconvenient Truth' is Science! that does not fit the Libtard Agenda.

Posted by: Live Free Or Die at October 13, 2011 01:14 PM (DOq4L)

55 An abortion thread at the HQ? This is probably going to get messy.
Personally I moved from being a sometime between conception and birth guy to an at conception guy when my wife was pregnant with our first child.
When I saw that peanut and its heartbeat which was separate and apart from my wife's and felt the overwhelming love of being "daddy" my whole worldview changed.
Then to make it really icky think about this: many say "well in the case of rape or incest it's OK". So, the child has no right to live due to the circumstances of its conception? Not pleasant stuff to think about but there it is.

Posted by: Scott J at October 13, 2011 01:14 PM (/bVuS)

56 48 that one guy

no

Posted by: phoenixgirl at October 13, 2011 01:15 PM (eOXTH)

57 All it took for me to become pro life was that ultrasound.Planned Parenthood is pure evil. I heard my daughter's heartbeat at six weeks, I was firmly pro-life after that, instead of being squishy about it.

Posted by: Sean Bannion, Regimental S-4 at October 13, 2011 01:15 PM (sbV1u)

58 20 @19
Not a Mitt fan, as you all know, but I tend to not assign blame to candidates for what their spouses do, within reason.
Posted by: Y-not at October 13, 2011 01:01 PM

Really? So if your husband is killing people and hiding the bodies in your yard that's nothing to you? You are not responsible?

I know, that's an out there analogy, she's just funding the killing of babies, no biggie. If my wife pulled that shit, and she wouldn't, i'd stomp a mud hole in her ass and walk it dry.

Posted by: Oldsailor's poet at October 13, 2011 01:15 PM (ZDUD4)

59 OT: Apparently the SCOAMF just freaked out and screamed at FNC's Ed Henry. This oughta be good.

Posted by: Ian S. at October 13, 2011 01:16 PM (tqwMN)

60 John "Brave New World" Holdren, King Putt's science advisor (author of The Population Bomb), wrote that he thought babies aren't full developed until they were two years old, ex-utero.

Wonderful.

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at October 13, 2011 01:16 PM (UlUS4)

61 Posted by: Infidel in Utah at October 13, 2011 01:09 PM (90BnA)
the majority of all christians oppose gay marriage , I don't. it's not uncommon to find disagreements b/w church and attendee. Romney should be called out for this and asked about it though

Posted by: Team Mitt's AuthorLMendez (Ban k1rwm) at October 13, 2011 01:16 PM (yAor6)

62 PP will always be a leftist favorite because they're the only ones who can openly advocate what they believe-- that you should be able to kill people who are inconvenient or 'substandard'.

Posted by: Secundus at October 13, 2011 01:16 PM (96ems)

63 Aren't you going against your own cause by not supporting the most effective ways to stop unwanted pregnancies?

Not against sex ed at a reasonable age (i.e. elementary school) but the most effective way to stop unwanted pregnancies is to remove all programs that limit the consequences of having a child.

Posted by: Buzzsaw at October 13, 2011 01:17 PM (tf9Ne)

64 I want some pro-abortion weanie to serve me a breakfast of endangered California Condor eggs. Because, you know, they're just eggs. It's not like they're endangered California Condors or anything. Right?

Posted by: Marmo at October 13, 2011 01:17 PM (InrkQ)

65 PP will always be a leftist favorite because they're the only ones who can openly advocate what they believe-- that you should be able to kill people who are inconvenient or 'substandard'.

And worse yet, they can do it under the cover of "helping the poor and underprivileged women of the US"

Posted by: HeartlessBlackOrchid at October 13, 2011 01:17 PM (SB0V2)

66 And the child sacrifice, um, where are you getting that?

For the Carthaginians, it was based on two things: Roman writings, plus a weird concentration of baby skeletons in an archeological find. Given that the Isrealites accused the Phoenicians (the source of Carthage) of the same thing, it follows that Carthage practiced Moloch as well.

It's a little strange to think that the Romans were probably the Good Guys in that war.

Posted by: Meiczyslaw at October 13, 2011 01:17 PM (bjRNS)

67 47 MpurinTexas,
Yeah, it's one of the many things that Perry has never waivered on.
Perry's conservative bonafeedays outshine everyone else in the lineup. .....Which is why I am wondering Palin hasn't endorsed him yet. He is more conservative than she isin some ways. ....Maybe it's the union thing. She is basically more pro-union than he is.

Posted by: ConservativeMenAreJustHotter at October 13, 2011 01:18 PM (AtOcq)

68 Sometimes you just have to suspend the Science to get the answer you want.

Posted by: Rev. Jesse Einstein, Jr. at October 13, 2011 01:18 PM (FcR7P)

69 You can't ignore SCIENCEY stuff, wingnutz!!11!!

Posted by: Dr Charles Johnson, Scienceologist at October 13, 2011 01:19 PM (Y+DPZ)

70 Posted by: CoolCzech at October 13, 2011 01:07 PM (Iaxlk)
he was on Neal Boortz's show and said in a month he'll be the number 2 guy

Posted by: Team Mitt's AuthorLMendez (Ban k1rwm) at October 13, 2011 01:19 PM (yAor6)

71 I would love to see Palin endorse Perry. It would be a good boost, I think. Otherwise we may be stuck with Mittens.

Posted by: HeartlessBlackOrchid at October 13, 2011 01:19 PM (SB0V2)

72 The science is always settled right up until the time it isn't.

Posted by: kansas at October 13, 2011 01:20 PM (mka2b)

73 Posted by: HeartlessBlackOrchid at October 13, 2011 01:19 PM (SB0V2)
I'm actually expecting Palin to endorse Cain

Posted by: Team Mitt's AuthorLMendez (Ban k1rwm) at October 13, 2011 01:20 PM (yAor6)

74 Science is as close to the ultimate truth as we're going to get, unless you mean the insane delusions that constitute religion, Ace.

Posted by: Random at October 13, 2011 01:20 PM (YiE0S)

75 Why is Planned Parenthood allowed in schools?

Posted by: Š Sponge at October 13, 2011 01:21 PM (UK9cE)

76 73.

Maybe she is waiting to see how this transpires. I can't imagine Cain hanging in, but stranger things have happened.

Posted by: HeartlessBlackOrchid at October 13, 2011 01:21 PM (SB0V2)

77 These people are like 3 year olds. Anything they don't like isn't there, and if they like it IT'S THERE IT'S THERE IT'S THERE because magical thinking works when you're three.
It's the only way to explain their comfort with having 87 conflicting notions in their tiny brains.

Posted by: Biblio at October 13, 2011 01:21 PM (y5VNb)

78
There is a reason for this. George Soros wrote
about this in his book "Open Society: Reforming Global Capitalism." This
gets pretty complex, but ultimately it's a political agenda to
undermine Free Will and to control behavior, where everybody ends up
beleiving "Truth" to be whatever thegovernment decides is "Truth" in an
effort to break free of traditional, national, and religous norms.

It is also found in his early writings and other books like, "The crisis of Global Capitalism: Open Society Endangered"

Posted by: Jimi at October 13, 2011 01:13 PM

Looks like hanging out with Nazis while making money from ratting out other Jews made quite an impression on the young Soros in 1944

Posted by: kbdabear at October 13, 2011 01:21 PM (Y+DPZ)

79 Posted by: Random at October 13, 2011 01:20 PM (YiE0S)
This was probably the wrong place to post that particular comment.

Posted by: Sean Bannion, Regimental S-4 at October 13, 2011 01:21 PM (sbV1u)

80 25
19 Infidel,
A $150 donation back in 1994? Is that all? .....That's not a big deal, then.
But Mitt's flip-flop on the issue is.

Posted by: ConservativeMenAreJustHotter at October 13, 2011 01:03 PM (AtOcq)
Agreed. The flip-flop is what continues to haunt him.As a point of information, here is the official Mormon Church policy on abortions:

"The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints believes in the
sanctity of human life. Therefore, the Church opposes elective abortion
for personal or social convenience, and counsels its members not to
submit to, perform, encourage, pay for, or arrange for such abortions.

The Church allows for possible exceptions for its members when:

Pregnancy results from rape or incest, or
A competent physician determines that the life or health of the mother is in serious jeopardy, or
A competent physician determines that the fetus has severe defects that will not allow the baby to survive beyond birth.

The Church teaches its members that even these rare exceptions do not
justify abortion automatically. Abortion is a most serious matter and
should be considered only after the persons involved have consulted with
their local church leaders and feel through personal prayer that their
decision is correct.

The Church has not favored or opposed legislative proposals or public demonstrations concerning abortion."

Posted by: Infidel in Utah at October 13, 2011 01:22 PM (90BnA)

81 Then to make it really icky think about this: many say "well in the case
of rape or incest it's OK". So, the child has no right to live due to
the circumstances of its conception? Not pleasant stuff to think about
but there it is.

I've come to the conclusion that abortion should be treated just like a gun: you get to use it in self-defense, and it's got to be self-defense, not "I'm going to be inconvenienced for nine months."

That said, there probably should be some sort of government-financed support for rape and incest victims, and the "father" doesn't get parental rights.

Posted by: Meiczyslaw at October 13, 2011 01:22 PM (bjRNS)

82 Perry's conservative bonafeedays outshine everyone else in the lineup.
.....Which is why I am wondering Palin hasn't endorsed him yet. He is
more conservative than she isin some ways. ....Maybe it's the union
thing. She is basically more pro-union than he is.

I'm not sure I care what Palin thinks anymore.

She endorsed him in his last run for Governor, then took pot shots from the sidelines when he jumped into the national race.

She's probably holding out to see which way the wind blows before she endorses anyone. Gotta back a winner, yaknow.

Posted by: mpurinTexas, Evil Conservanatrix, supports Rick Perry, bitch at October 13, 2011 01:22 PM (pY3GI)

83 O-bah-muhh is a Stammering Clusterforce of a Miserable Failure = Truth
Abortion kills babies in the womb = Truth

Posted by: Live Free Or Die at October 13, 2011 01:22 PM (DOq4L)

84 Aren't you going against your own cause by not supporting the most effective ways to stop unwanted pregnancies?

The most effective is 'don't stick it in.' Just, y'know, saying.

Beyond that, frankly I'm about to the point that we need to play the demographic numbers game a little more seriously...

Posted by: DarkLordŠ sez Obama is a stuttering clusterf--- of a miserable failure
Oh, and F--- Nevada! at October 13, 2011 01:22 PM (GBXon)

85 Oh really? Megyn just said the 12 senators and congressmen are looking at our 401k accounts.

Posted by: Oldsailor's poet at October 13, 2011 01:22 PM (ZDUD4)

86 Been following the #OWS a little here. What with endless days of liberal arts college and unlimited loans, there's a lot of embryos who aren't even viable by the age of 30.

Posted by: t-bird at October 13, 2011 01:22 PM (FcR7P)

87 She's probably holding out to see which way the wind blows before she endorses anyone. Gotta back a winner, yaknow.
yeah I see that as a possibility, probably wait until after a couple primaries and the c4p crowd can declare her some kingmaker

Posted by: Team Mitt's AuthorLMendez (Ban k1rwm) at October 13, 2011 01:23 PM (yAor6)

88 I'm actually expecting Palin to endorse Cain

Posted by: Team Mitt's AuthorLMendez (Ban k1rwm) at October 13, 2011 01:20 PM

Well, once you go black ...

Posted by: Glen Rice at October 13, 2011 01:23 PM (Y+DPZ)

89 I read where Romney and his wife have been contributors to Planned Parenthood in the past.
Posted by: ConservativeMenAreJustHotter at October 13, 2011 12:52 PM (AtOcq)
Where?
Oh, and everyone should remember to always say "For Profit Planned Parenthood"

Posted by: dagny at October 13, 2011 01:23 PM (yIuXz)

90 57

All it took for me to become pro life was that ultrasound.
Planned Parenthood is pure evil.

I heard my daughter's heartbeat at six weeks, I was firmly pro-life after that, instead of being squishy about it.

Posted by: Sean Bannion, Regimental S-4 at October 13, 2011 01:15 PM (sbV1u)
Amen.I was pro choice before my sisters ultrasound.. well, actually never thought about it much.
My nephew was not the "blob of cells" that had been spoon fed to the masses at that time. He was a little human being.
He is a joy to the world ... I cant imagine life without him in it.

Posted by: Jumbo Jogging Shrimp at October 13, 2011 01:23 PM (qjUnn)

91 Posted by: Meiczyslaw at October 13, 2011 01:09 PM (bjRNS)

How is the 2nd Law not Truth? That would be the Law of which it has been said "But if your theory is found to be against the second law of
thermodynamics I can give you no hope; there is nothing for it but to
collapse in deepest humiliation."
And they cannot both be true.
Posted by: AmishDude at October 13, 2011 01:13 PM (73tyQ)

Sure they can, General Relativity is specifically not Quantum Relativity. And, btw, much of what they both say agrees (as I understand it: way out of my depth discussing relativity v quantum theory). We wouldn't be able to understand even what we do of Quantum mechanics without E = MC2.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) is tired beyond tired of the trolls at October 13, 2011 01:23 PM (8y9MW)

92 79.

My husband is an avowed Atheist and absolutely pro-life. There is no conflict there. He's not into murdering, that's all.

If you are a Humanist - secular or otherwise - it doesn't make sense to be pro-choice.

In the end, it's about Control. We like to think we have it. I learned throughout my life, via many hard lessons, that we do not. Whether there is a God who does have it, or not, doesn't really matter.

Posted by: HeartlessBlackOrchid at October 13, 2011 01:24 PM (SB0V2)

93 I believe that PP has done some wonderful things. We should all back them.

Posted by: Margaret Sanger at October 13, 2011 01:24 PM (jucos)

94 Don't confuse me with the facts!

Posted by: Honey Badger at October 13, 2011 01:24 PM (GvYeG)

95 fix to 63 (i.e. NOT elementary school)

Posted by: Buzzsaw at October 13, 2011 01:24 PM (tf9Ne)

96 71 I would love to see Palin endorse Perry. It would be a good boost, I think. Otherwise we may be stuck with Mittens.
"Somebody wake up Hicks" .....from the movie 'Aliens' [2].
I have had that scene stuck in my head ever since the debate tues night. ....It's like he's that seasones grunt Hicks, catching some Z's on the transport down to the planet, before the real fighting starts.

Posted by: ConservativeMenAreJustHotter at October 13, 2011 01:24 PM (AtOcq)

97 He is a joy to the world ... I cant imagine life without him in it.Posted by: Jumbo Jogging Shrimp at October 13, 2011 01:23 PM (qjUnn)
Amen.
And...ditto for my little girl.

Posted by: Sean Bannion, Regimental S-4 at October 13, 2011 01:24 PM (sbV1u)

98 "Planned Parenthood is evil, as are it's death cultist followers. "

Not to mention racist.
If you are liberal and support an organization that was started by the blatant racist, genocidist Margaret Sanger, and that aims its abortion mills at african americans, you aren't racist.

But if you are conservative and question affirmative action, you are racist.

Posted by: nerdygirl at October 13, 2011 01:25 PM (d1ZLd)

99 @They're probably not really religious at all. She may or may not be liberal. It doesn't bode well

My impression is that Mitt is pretty religious, unlike Huntsman who seems to be close to a Jack Mormon. Romney was a bishop at one point in time. I don't know about his wife, but I'd be surprised if she was less practicing than he is. The folks I know around here tend to match in their level of devotion. Their church life is very integrated with their home lives and even their professional lives to some extent. At least here in Utah County.

Posted by: Y-not at October 13, 2011 01:25 PM (5H6zj)

100 96....*seasoned grunt 'Hicks'

Posted by: ConservativeMenAreJustHotter at October 13, 2011 01:25 PM (AtOcq)

101 93
I believe that PP has done some wonderful things. We should all back them.

Posted by: Margaret Sanger at October 13, 2011 01:24 PM

She might have been an uppity commie, but we liked some of her ideas

Posted by: KKK in 1920 at October 13, 2011 01:26 PM (Y+DPZ)

102 Using "health" as a euphemism for "killing babies" is probably the most despicable thing the pro-abortion lobby has ever done.

Aside, of course, from killing all those babies in the first place.

Posted by: Kensington at October 13, 2011 01:26 PM (/AHDz)

103 So the mormon position on abortion is pretty identical to the Catholic position. Except Catholic position doesn't really ok it for rape/and or incest.

Posted by: dagny at October 13, 2011 01:26 PM (yIuXz)

104 Well, once you go black ...

Posted by: Glen Rice at October 13, 2011 01:23 PM (Y+DPZ)

You become a single mom?
I denounce myself.

Posted by: mpurinTexas, Evil Conservanatrix, supports Rick Perry, bitch at October 13, 2011 01:27 PM (pY3GI)

105 Listen, we'd rather you didn't look at those ultrasounds. They're so manipulative.

Posted by: Planned Parenthood at October 13, 2011 01:27 PM (/AHDz)

106 My impression is that Mitt is pretty religious, unlike Huntsman who
seems to be close to a Jack Mormon. Romney was a bishop at one point in
time.

So McCain literally "beat the bishop" in 2008?

Posted by: kbdabear at October 13, 2011 01:27 PM (Y+DPZ)

107 You become a single mom?
I denounce myself.
Posted by: mpurinTexas, Evil Conservanatrix, supports Rick Perry, bitch at October 13, 2011 01:27 PM (pY3GI)
LMAO
*THREAD WINNER*

Posted by: Team Mitt's AuthorLMendez (Ban k1rwm) at October 13, 2011 01:27 PM (yAor6)

108 99.

Then why on earth would they be at a PP fundraiser and even donate?

I don't get. I guess Mormons aren't like Catholics on this. If he were Catholic, I'd be - that's it, forget you just based on the fundraiser/donation. It's a dealbreaker. I guess I don't know enough about Mormonism. It sounds like they get some wiggle room on the feticide issue.

Posted by: HeartlessBlackOrchid at October 13, 2011 01:27 PM (SB0V2)

109 You become a single mom?

LMFAO! That's perfect.

Posted by: Oldsailor's poet at October 13, 2011 01:28 PM (ZDUD4)

110 How is [Newton's] 2nd Law not Truth? ... second law of
thermodynamics ...

I think you must have made a typo earlier. Newton's second law is NOT the second law of thermodynamics.

Posted by: Meiczyslaw at October 13, 2011 01:28 PM (bjRNS)

111 48 Isn't it counter-productive to claim that you want to end abortions, but also that you are against the use of condoms, birth control, and non-abstinence sex education? Aren't you going against your own cause by not supporting the most effective ways to stop unwanted pregnancies?

How about that high tech method of birth control known as pulling out? Just askin. Jeebus, it ain't that complicated.

Posted by: Sub-Tard at October 13, 2011 01:28 PM (0M3AQ)

112
hahaha, Jane Wells has a little piece up at cnbc.com offering a reading list to the idiots who are Cockupying Wall Street.

(But it turns out that the Cockupiers are not only ignorant of economics, they are communist tools.)

Posted by: Soothsayer at October 13, 2011 01:28 PM (sqkOB)

113 Stop blaming me for what my wives do, it's un-american.

Posted by: Mitt Romney at October 13, 2011 01:28 PM (Sh42X)

114 So the mormon position on abortion is pretty identical to the Catholic
position. Except Catholic position doesn't really ok it for rape/and or
incest.

Add me to the ones who don't get the "rape/incest" carve-out. If the question is one of "when its it life?" and your answer is "conception," then rape and incest can't be excluded.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) is tired beyond tired of the trolls at October 13, 2011 01:28 PM (8y9MW)

115 "So the mormon position on abortion is pretty identical to the Catholic
position. Except Catholic position doesn't really ok it for rape/and or
incest."
No, the Catholic Church is unsettled on the matter of abortion and leaves it up to the conscience of the individual woman and her doctor.

Posted by: Nancy Pelosi at October 13, 2011 01:28 PM (/AHDz)

116
I'm not going to comment beyond this, because I will rage and rage
and rage if I talk about Planned Parenthood for more than a moment, but:
Planned Parenthood is evil, as are it's death cultist followers.
They care as much about "women's health" as I do about water polo
statistics (that is, not at all). They are purely political and have no
interest in what's best for a woman or her unborn child. May they rot
in Hell forever.
*going to listen to angry music to cool off*

Posted by: MWR, Proud Tea(rrorist) Party Hobbit at October 13, 2011 12:55 PM (4df7R)

This post sums up my feelings nicely, without all the vulgarity and expletives that come to mind whenever Molech's modern cultists come up in conversation.

Posted by: KinleyArdal at October 13, 2011 01:29 PM (EISTs)

117 I am unaware of any evidence that Mitt Bloomberg supports "nanny state" policies.

Posted by: The Chap in the Deerstalker Cap at October 13, 2011 01:30 PM (qndXR)

118 No, the Catholic Church is unsettled on the matter of abortion and leaves it up to the conscience of the individual woman and her doctor.
Why Pelosi hasn't been excommunicated yet is beyond me.
I don't think there is a single Archbishop with any balls in the U.S.

Posted by: Sean Bannion at October 13, 2011 01:30 PM (sbV1u)

119 Add me to the ones who don't get the "rape/incest" carve-out. If the question is one of "when its it life?" and your answer is "conception," then rape and incest can't be excluded.
Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) is tired beyond tired of the trolls at October 13, 2011 01:28 PM (8y9MW)
+1

Posted by: Team Mitt's AuthorLMendez (Ban k1rwm) at October 13, 2011 01:30 PM (yAor6)

120 I think you must have made a typo earlier. Newton's second law is NOT the second law of thermodynamics.

Ah! Sorry, you're right. I keep conflating them for some reason- I know intellectually that they're different, but I keep getting them mixed up in my head.

Thanks for the fix, then.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) is tired beyond tired of the trolls at October 13, 2011 01:31 PM (8y9MW)

121 I don't think there is a single Archbishop with any balls in the U.S.

Wrong, Timothy Dolan.

Posted by: Oldsailor's poet at October 13, 2011 01:31 PM (ZDUD4)

122
Add me to the ones who don't get the
"rape/incest" carve-out. If the question is one of "when its it life?"
and your answer is "conception," then rape and incest can't be excluded.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) is tired beyond tired of the trolls at October 13, 2011 01:28 PM (8y9MW)

Precisely. It is simply another tactic; give an inch, and they will take a mile.Human lives are nothing but chips in their pile, to ante up on a whim. Sanger would be proud of her little murder-for-profit organization.

Posted by: KinleyArdal at October 13, 2011 01:31 PM (EISTs)

123 EH...maybe they're on to something with this whole killing babies stuff
http://tinyurl.com/62o6ax7
WTF?

Posted by: dananjcon at October 13, 2011 01:31 PM (8ieXv)

124 So the mormon position on abortion is pretty identical to the Catholic
position. Except Catholic position doesn't really ok it for rape/and or
incest

Well, I'd say that's a huge difference.

IMHO, the Catholic position is more consistent. Either someone is a human with God-given rights or they aren't. If they're human, it doesn't matter how they came to be or if they will be born "defective."

Posted by: Y-not at October 13, 2011 01:32 PM (5H6zj)

125 "So the mormon position on abortion is pretty identical to the Catholic
position. Except Catholic position doesn't really ok it for rape/and or
incest."

The Catholic Church makes no bones about it: rape and/or incest cannot be used to justify an abortion.

Posted by: Kensington at October 13, 2011 01:32 PM (/AHDz)

126 *going to listen to angry music to cool off*

I would recommend something from Manowar or Slayer

Posted by: Berserker at October 13, 2011 01:32 PM (FMbng)

127 No, the Catholic Church is unsettled on the matter
of abortion and leaves it up to the conscience of the individual woman
and her doctor.

Posted by: Nancy Pelosi at October 13, 2011 01:28 PM (/AHDz)

Well put, Your Excellency.

Posted by: John Kerry at October 13, 2011 01:33 PM (CE2wR)

128 Posted by: dananjcon at October 13, 2011 01:31 PM (8ieXv)
cocaine's a Hell of a Drug!

Posted by: Team Mitt's AuthorLMendez (Ban k1rwm) at October 13, 2011 01:33 PM (yAor6)

129 I endorse myself!! Honey Badger 2012!!!

Posted by: Honey Badger at October 13, 2011 01:33 PM (GvYeG)

130 Can I get me a baby huntin' license here?

Posted by: John "Do you know who I am" K. at October 13, 2011 01:33 PM (lpWVn)

131 Wrong, Timothy Dolan.
Posted by: Oldsailor's poet at October 13, 2011 01:31 PM (ZDUD4)
And when I see him kick a pro-choice politico member of his flock to the curb, I'll agree.
Until then...nope.

Posted by: Sean Bannion at October 13, 2011 01:33 PM (sbV1u)

132 "Wrong, Timothy Dolan."

Charles Chaput, also.

Posted by: Kensington at October 13, 2011 01:33 PM (/AHDz)

133 The Catholic Church makes no bones about it: rape and/or incest cannot be used to justify an abortion.

My only exception: actual risk to the life of the mother if brought to term.

That's it. When the question is "which one will survive" then it becomes a question of preference. That's the only time. As long as both will survive, or we know mom will and there's still a chance for the baby- abortion is murder.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) is tired beyond tired of the trolls at October 13, 2011 01:34 PM (8y9MW)

134 I endorse myself!! Honey Badger 2012!!!
Posted by: Honey Badger at October 13, 2011 01:33 PM (GvYeG)
I just looked it up Honey Badger has 47% to Obama's 41% in a head to head matchup, i'm hooked, time to renounce my Mitt allegiance

Posted by: Team Mitt's AuthorLMendez (Ban k1rwm) at October 13, 2011 01:34 PM (yAor6)

135 I would recommend something from Manowar or Slayer

Don't stop until the blood on your sword is the blood of a king?

Posted by: Meiczyslaw at October 13, 2011 01:34 PM (bjRNS)

136 Yay Chaput! He was just moved to my Archdiocese.

I am apparently the only Catholic woman I know who is excited about this.

Arggggggggh

Posted by: HeartlessBlackOrchid at October 13, 2011 01:34 PM (SB0V2)

137 If they're human, it doesn't matter how they came to be or if they will be born "defective."
Posted by: Y-not at October 13, 2011 01:32 PM (5H6zj)
I understand that position, but... I just don't see how you break the news to a 13 year old rape victim, Oh, by the way, congratulations! You're going to give birth! To your rapist's spawn!
That's the tip-off for me that abortion... while a deplorable vice when merely for convenience... is not exactly the same thing as murder.

Posted by: CoolCzech at October 13, 2011 01:35 PM (Iaxlk)

138 125
"So the mormon position on abortion is pretty identical to the Catholic
position. Except Catholic position doesn't really ok it for rape/and or
incest."

The Catholic Church makes no bones about it: rape and/or incest cannot be used to justify an abortion.

Posted by: Kensington at October 13, 2011 01:32 PM (/AHDz)
--The late Dr. Bernard Nathanson, long before he converted to Catholicism, converted to the pro-life cause. He long made the point that marital rape is a very prevalent, underreported phenomenon, and many babies born in wedlock may have been conceived in an act of rape.

Posted by: logprof at October 13, 2011 01:35 PM (CE2wR)

139 48 Isn't it counter-productive to claim that you want to end abortions, but also that you are against the use of condoms, birth control, and non-abstinence sex education? Aren't you going against your own cause by not supporting the most effective ways to stop unwanted pregnancies?
How about that high tech method of birth control known as pulling out? Just askin. Jeebus, it ain't that complicated.
Posted by: Sub-Tard at October 13, 2011 01:28 PM (0M3AQ)
This is the gut response to "But I want to fuck with no consequences!! Why don't you people understand that I want to fuck?"
You grasp that people could just have married sex, right? And even those people who are married can limit how many conceptions they have by how oftenand when they have sex? I don't know why this position is so incredibly unreasonable but I agree that humankind is not evolved enough to get much past wanting to fuck as sport. The bare minimum the species could do is avoid circumstances that lead to killing infants. Really, it's just not that difficult.

Posted by: dagny at October 13, 2011 01:35 PM (yIuXz)

140 That said, there probably should be some sort of
government-financed support for rape and incest victims, and the
"father" doesn't get parental rights.

Posted by: Meiczyslaw at October 13, 2011 01:22 PM (bjRNS)
I heard that it was standard practice for hospitals doing rape kits to do a DNC to stop any accidental pregnancy - of course this only matters in the relatively immediate aftermath of the assault.I have a relative who is the result of a rape. Mother was attacked in a grocery store parking lot in the middle of the day by two men about twenty years ago. She said that when she found out she was pregnant, abortion was never an option - said that the child was just as much a part of her, and it shouldn't have to pay for what those men did. Her daughter is in college now, and preparing for a missionary trip to Asia.

Posted by: tdpwells at October 13, 2011 01:35 PM (7vA7k)

141 It's my body and I'll lie if I want to
Lie if I want to
Lie if I want to
You would cry too if I preached this to you

Posted by: I'm in a New York state of mind at October 13, 2011 01:35 PM (4sQwu)

142 Posted by: Sean Bannion at October 13, 2011 01:33 PM (sbV1u)
i'm looking for that part in the Bible Jesus started kicking out supporters from his sermons because they weren't pure or something...

Posted by: Team Mitt's AuthorLMendez (Ban k1rwm) at October 13, 2011 01:35 PM (yAor6)

143 My only exception: actual risk to the life of the mother if brought to term.

And I *think* (too lazy to go to the Vatican website) that even then it's that the abortion should be a side-effect of whatever medical procedure is performed to save the mother.

In other words, if there is a risk of death from bleeding that can be cured by a hysterectomy, then the hysterectomy can be performed, which would, of course, result (probably) in the loss of the child. But the docs have to try to save the child when it's "delivered."

Posted by: Y-not at October 13, 2011 01:36 PM (5H6zj)

144 OT: Apparently the SCOAMF just freaked out and screamed at FNC's Ed Henry. This oughta be good.
The dam is cracking.

Posted by: WalrusRex at October 13, 2011 01:36 PM (jUZRg)

145 I've always been pro life but I have to say when my Daughter took me with her to see my Granddaughter at 24 weeks via 3d technology it was unbelievable.She was sucking her thumb . I cried not just from the joy of seeing her but for the sadness of all those other little ones who never were allowed to be born.

Posted by: The terrorist Hobbit formerly known as Donna at October 13, 2011 01:36 PM (5Wl/f)

146 Sort-of-not-OT - did you see the sidebar item re: Nan and women dying on the floors of clinics if any restrictions on abortions are enacted?!?!

She has a lot of freaking guts saying that. After the isht that went down here in Philly with that godawful abortionist . . . oh. my. word.

What a sick person she is. She is completely conscience-free, it's amazing.

Posted by: HeartlessBlackOrchid at October 13, 2011 01:36 PM (SB0V2)

147 IMHO, the Catholic position is more consistent. Either someone is a human with God-given rights or they aren't. If they're human, it doesn't matter how they came to be or if they will be born "defective."
It's not your opinion, it's the truth. So...you have a remarkablywell-informed opinion.
Say one thing about the Catholic Church, they are consistently on the side of life. You can't say all life is precious and then only stand up for some lives. The Church says all life is precious.
Which is why they teachall abortion is wrong, and so iscapital punishment.

Posted by: Sean Bannion at October 13, 2011 01:37 PM (sbV1u)

148 That's the tip-off for me that abortion... while a deplorable vice when
merely for convenience... is not exactly the same thing as murder.

Why is it the baby's fault, CC? Why should a baby pay with his or her life because of what someone else did? Should we be able to execute children for the crimes of their parents?

Adoption is always an option, remember. And, yes, that still means the poor 13-yo rape victim (in your example) is going to have to go through 9 months of pregnancy and labor. Sometimes a crime has lingering consequences.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) is tired beyond tired of the trolls at October 13, 2011 01:37 PM (8y9MW)

149
I would recommend something from Manowar or Slayer

Posted by: Berserker at October 13, 2011 01:32 PM (FMbng)

Alternatively, anything from Hammerfall before No Sacrifice, No Victory when they decided to stop being musicians and started just slapping their instruments to make noise.

Posted by: KinleyArdal at October 13, 2011 01:37 PM (EISTs)

150 That's it. When the question is "which one will survive" then it becomes a question of preference. That's the only time.

Yep. At that point, it's one of those choices you don't want to have to make, like kicking the drowning man free so you can live. If the mother sticks it out so the baby lives, she's a Hero, but you can't ask anyone to do that.

(Oh, and in case it's important: yours truly is an atheist.)

Posted by: Meiczyslaw at October 13, 2011 01:37 PM (bjRNS)

151 Ultrasounds. They are the bane of the baby killers.
My daughter 2 months before birth: http://tinyurl.com/3hgreuc
She turned 4 yesterday: http://tinyurl.com/5tjs2nd

Posted by: Scott J at October 13, 2011 01:37 PM (/bVuS)

152 When I saw that peanut and its heartbeat which was separate and apart from my wife's and felt the overwhelming love of being "daddy" my whole worldview changed.

This.

I was totally in love. If someone at that time had sneered that it was "just a clump of cells" they'd have been coughing bloody chiclets all over the ground.

Posted by: Empire of Jeff at October 13, 2011 01:37 PM (l9zgN)

153 A Cobra in every pot!!!

Posted by: Honey Badger at October 13, 2011 01:38 PM (GvYeG)

154 Ba'al just means 'master.' It wasn't a specific deity. Each tribe had their own 'master.' And the child sacrifice, um, where are you getting that?
Most recently, from a book I'm reading about the Punic Wars, Carthage Must Be Destroyed. Cavevat: It's for history nerds only.

Posted by: WalrusRex at October 13, 2011 01:38 PM (jUZRg)

155 Uh ... it APPEARS exceedingly likely - as in, it's freaking obvious - that the YouTube, as presented on the linked site, has undergone some, how shall we say, editing.

For example, one can readily see that the opening scene is not, in fact, the opening scene of the meeting as it actually occurred in real time, but as a corollary, also then does not get to see whether whatever preceded that opening scene included a factual summary of what 'the science' - with the scene presented here serving in context as a summary of the moderating panel's determination that a line would be drawn between 'science' and debate to follow over policy, which is often based on factors not restricted to science.

Posted by: Rex the Wonder God at October 13, 2011 01:38 PM (vahvH)

156 That's the tip-off for me that abortion... while a deplorable vice when
merely for convenience... is not exactly the same thing as murder.

I see it as a life boat situation. If you are in a life boat with another person and you are both starving, do you kill the other person to live? I wouldn't because I would consider it murder. Maybe you see it as justifiable homicide.

Posted by: Y-not, future sandwich to hungry survivalist at October 13, 2011 01:38 PM (5H6zj)

157 101 93 I believe that PP has done some wonderful things. We should all back them. Posted by: Margaret Sanger at October 13, 2011 01:24 PM

She might have been an uppity commie, but we liked some of her ideas
Posted by: KKK in 1920 at October 13, 2011 01:26 PM (Y+DPZ)

We approve as well.

Dr. Karl Brandt, Dr. Josef Mengele

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at October 13, 2011 01:39 PM (UlUS4)

158 i'm looking for that part in the Bible Jesus started kicking out supporters from his sermons because they weren't pure or something...
Posted by: Team Mitt's AuthorLMendez (Ban k1rwm) at October 13, 2011 01:35 PM (yAor6)
I didn't quote the Bible in the original post. I'll be impressed with Dolan's intestinal fortitude when he makes an example of a pro-choice politician in his diocese.
But, since you're asking, start with the Gospel of Matthew.

Posted by: Sean Bannion at October 13, 2011 01:39 PM (sbV1u)

159 He long made the point that marital rape is a very prevalent, underreported phenomenon, and many babies born in wedlock may have been conceived in an act of rape.
I don't believe that at all. I'd love tospeak to these women who report being raped by their husbands. I just don't buy it. Or are these men? It's tough to get a guy to have non consensual sex. They always fall asleep.

Posted by: dagny at October 13, 2011 01:39 PM (yIuXz)

160 144 ... and the Honey Badger is there to pick up the pieces ...

Posted by: Honey Badger at October 13, 2011 01:39 PM (GvYeG)

161 Adorable, Scott J.*

*what the fuck is that pretty little girl doing in an Auburn shirt?!

Posted by: Empire of Jeff at October 13, 2011 01:39 PM (vzFJV)

162 And I *think* (too lazy to go to the Vatican website) that even then
it's that the abortion should be a side-effect of whatever medical
procedure is performed to save the mother.

I can agree with that.

Which is why they teachall abortion is wrong, and so iscapital punishment.

And I can't agree with that.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) is tired beyond tired of the trolls at October 13, 2011 01:40 PM (8y9MW)

163 146 Sort-of-not-OT - did you see the sidebar item re: Nan and women dying on the floors of clinics if any restrictions on abortions are enacted?!?! She has a lot of freaking guts saying that. After the isht that went down here in Philly with that godawful abortionist . . . oh. my. word. What a sick person she is. She is completely conscience-free, it's amazing.

Methinks the DNC directive is for all the leader loons to go out and excite the follower loons to increase voter intensity. Seems some staffer let Sparky's favorability polls fall off a cliff and its causing problems down ticket. Stupid staffer.

Posted by: Sub-Tard at October 13, 2011 01:40 PM (0M3AQ)

164 If someone at that time had sneered that it was "just a clump of cells" they'd have been coughing bloody chiclets all over the ground.
^^This x 1,000.

Posted by: Sean Bannion at October 13, 2011 01:40 PM (sbV1u)

165 Posted by: Rex the Wonder God at October 13, 2011 01:38 PM (vahvH)

I linked to the full debate upthread, comment 14.

Posted by: tdpwells at October 13, 2011 01:40 PM (7vA7k)

166
Which is why they teachall abortion is wrong, and so iscapital punishment.

Posted by: Sean Bannion at October 13, 2011 01:37 PM (sbV1u)
--JPII was anti-capital punishment, but the Catholic Church does not teach as dogma that it is wrong in all cases.

Posted by: logprof at October 13, 2011 01:40 PM (CE2wR)

167 I have three adopted kids. One's bio-mom was unmarried, unemployed, and homeless when she conceived him. One was conceived by a woman who was a drug-addict who later went to prison for neglecting him. One was born to an alcoholic mother and father who lost custody after they let a babysitter molest him.

Planned Parenthood would have said, "Abort them all, it's better that way."

Posted by: Gregory of Yardale at October 13, 2011 01:41 PM (PLvLS)

168 That's the tip-off for me that abortion... while a deplorable vice when merely for convenience... is not exactly the same thing as murder.Huh? Howz that?

Posted by: dagny at October 13, 2011 01:41 PM (yIuXz)

169 And I can't agree with that.Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) is tired beyond tired of the trolls at October 13, 2011 01:40 PM (8y9MW)
I didn't either. But I do now.
But you will admit the position is at least intellectually consistent. Wouldn't you?

Posted by: Sean Bannion at October 13, 2011 01:41 PM (sbV1u)

170 166 It teaches that capital punishment is wrong unless there is another way to secure the safety of the innocent.

Posted by: dagny at October 13, 2011 01:42 PM (yIuXz)

171 Which is why they teachall abortion is wrong, and so iscapital punishment.

And I can't agree with that.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) is tired beyond tired of the trolls
---

Yeah, I read up on the capital punishment thing a while back. IIRC it is not as black and white an issue as abortion. The Church left a little wiggle room on that issue. They kind of have to since they are not preaching pacifism either.

Posted by: Y-not, future sandwich to hungry survivalist at October 13, 2011 01:43 PM (5H6zj)

172 All three of my kids are gifts from g-d. I have never been pro-"choice". seeing the ultrasounds just cemented me in the pro life camp.

Posted by: Osama bin Truck Monkey, TEArrorist Son of a Bitch at October 13, 2011 01:43 PM (jucos)

173 I am of the belief that if I should so choose (with the other party in agreement) to abort an unwanted child, it's neither your or the Government's business. Should it come down to it, the judgment will be made by GOD and he alone. Actions have consequences and should I choose to risk it, it's my decision and everyone else can just mind their own business.

Sorry, but that's my opinion on the matter. You're more than welcome to disagree.

Posted by: Š Sponge at October 13, 2011 01:43 PM (UK9cE)

174 blob of tissue; sciency

Posted by: willow at October 13, 2011 01:44 PM (h+qn8)

175 The left is evil. Incarnate.

Next question.

Posted by: Hearless Janitors_4_Jesus at October 13, 2011 01:44 PM (tazG1)

176 Posted by: dagny at October 13, 2011 01:42 PM (yIuXz)
Thank you, I was busily scrolling the CCC to see if I could find the cite.
I should have known better to ask the RCIA instructor to begin with.

Posted by: Sean Bannion at October 13, 2011 01:44 PM (sbV1u)

177 Thanks, EOJ.
As to the AU outfit I'm just following Proverbs 22:6

Posted by: Scott J at October 13, 2011 01:45 PM (/bVuS)

178 @173
That's an odd position coming from someone who just referred to a fetus as a child.

Should we be allowed to stop you from killing your elderly granny? How about your annoying next door neighbor?

Posted by: Y-not, future sandwich to hungry survivalist at October 13, 2011 01:45 PM (5H6zj)

179 173 What about Grandma or a born child? When is the magic moment that society gets to tell you that you can't kill another person?

Posted by: dagny at October 13, 2011 01:45 PM (yIuXz)

180 Posted by: Scott J at October 13, 2011 01:37 PM (/bVuS)

And, 27 credit cards have now been opened in her honor.

Posted by: Š Sponge at October 13, 2011 01:45 PM (UK9cE)

181 OT - Surely the Iranians are quaking in their boots over this "threat" by the Obama Administration.

Obama denounces Iran's actions in plot

Posted by: Kratos (Ghost of Sparta) at October 13, 2011 01:45 PM (9hSKh)

182 173
I am of the belief that if I should so choose (with the other party in
agreement) to abort an unwanted child, it's neither your or the
Government's business. Should it come down to it, the judgment will be
made by GOD and he alone. Actions have consequences and should I choose
to risk it, it's my decision and everyone else can just mind their own
business.

Sorry, but that's my opinion on the matter. You're more than welcome to disagree.

Posted by: Š Sponge at October 13, 2011 01:43 PM (UK9cE)

It stops being your business when blood is shed.

Posted by: KinleyArdal at October 13, 2011 01:46 PM (EISTs)

183 Posted by: Sean Bannion at October 13, 2011 01:39 PM (sbV1u)
I was not saying you qouted the Bible bud I was beingsarcastic about my opposition to kicking out people from the church instead of changing minds, with that mindset no church should accept me even though I am a Christian because i'm pro-gay marriage

Posted by: Team Mitt's AuthorLMendez (Ban k1rwm) at October 13, 2011 01:46 PM (yAor6)

184 OK, I'm off thread. Carry on, morons.

Posted by: Y-not, future sandwich to hungry survivalist at October 13, 2011 01:46 PM (5H6zj)

185 But you will admit the position is at least intellectually consistent. Wouldn't you?

I will admit that it is not fundamentally flawed.

1) All life is precious
2) Things that are precious should be preserved
3) Life should be preserved.

I agree with that. I just think it's way more complicated once we bring the idea of Justice into it. God Himself is on the side of capitol punishment- so I don't get how the Catholic Church cannot be.

1) Whatever God says is True.
2) God says that Capital Punishment is sometimes Warranted
3) [your conclusion here]

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) is tired beyond tired of the trolls at October 13, 2011 01:46 PM (8y9MW)

186
sooooo...

they went and did it

they re-made Footloose.

Why???

Posted by: Soothsayer at October 13, 2011 01:46 PM (sqkOB)

187 How about your annoying next door neighbor?
Well, I think my annoying next door neighbor is fair game because he's reached the age or reason.
Your mileage may vary. ;-)

Posted by: Sean Bannion at October 13, 2011 01:46 PM (sbV1u)

188 Adoption is always an option, remember. And, yes, that still means the poor 13-yo rape victim (in your example) is going to have to go through 9 months of pregnancy and labor. Sometimes a crime has lingering consequences.
Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) is tired beyond tired of the trolls at October 13, 2011 01:37 PM (8y9MW)
It just feels to me that forcing a girl to carry a rapist's child in her womb to term amounts to extending the rape by 9 months. I'm not saying that I am altogether consistent in the logic of my reasoning here... but I guess I would make the abortion one of the "lingering consequences" of the rape, and put the moral blame for it on the rapist, not the victim. Hell, add "forced abortion" to one of the charges against him.
Again, I really do understand your point... and the only way I can square the circle of my position on this is that abortion is a deplorable vice that should be illegal when it's for mere convenience... but not the same thing as murder.

Posted by: CoolCzech at October 13, 2011 01:46 PM (Iaxlk)

189
is Flashdance next?

Posted by: Soothsayer at October 13, 2011 01:46 PM (sqkOB)

190 That's an odd position coming from someone who just referred to a fetus as a child. Should we be allowed to stop you from killing your elderly granny? How about your annoying next door neighbor?
Posted by: Y-not, future sandwich to hungry survivalist at October 13, 2011 01:45 PM (5H6zj)
+1

Posted by: Team Mitt's AuthorLMendez (Ban k1rwm) at October 13, 2011 01:47 PM (yAor6)

191
how about a remake of Trading Places?

Posted by: Soothsayer at October 13, 2011 01:47 PM (sqkOB)

192 The conversation went something like this:
Me: at least admit abortion ends a human life.
Him: A fetus is just like a wart, no more.
Me: A fetus is genetically distinct from the mother, unlike a wart.
Him: fuck you.

Posted by: real joe at October 13, 2011 01:47 PM (xovnt)

193 Actions have consequences and should I choose to risk it, it's my decision and everyone else can just mind their own business.Sorry, but that's my opinion on the matter. You're more than welcome to disagree.

Posted by: Š Sponge at October 13, 2011 01:43 PM (UK9cE)
Yeah, especially to the fetus.

Posted by: Tami-Cardinals! at October 13, 2011 01:47 PM (X6akg)

194 Footloose ! Mongoose ...

Posted by: Honey Badger at October 13, 2011 01:47 PM (GvYeG)

195 Posted by: Team Mitt's AuthorLMendez (Ban k1rwm) at October 13, 2011 01:46 PM (yAor6)
My bad. Sorry.
I get a little crazy when the threads go into religion.
My fix for that is another Sam Adams...

Posted by: Sean Bannion at October 13, 2011 01:47 PM (sbV1u)

196
I am of the belief that if I should so choose (with the other party in
agreement) to abort an unwanted child, it's neither your or the
Government's business.

You don't get to kill toddlers in a civilized society. Why killing babies in a stomach suddenly becomes a libertarian issue is beyond me.

Posted by: Bevel Lemelisk at October 13, 2011 01:48 PM (FkKjr)

197
Science can tell us the conditions of the universe 4 milliseconds after the Big Bang!

Science can tell us that our planet is getting warmer, even though it's not!

Is a fetus a human being?

Dude, there's just some things science can't answer.

Posted by: Empire of Jeff at October 13, 2011 01:48 PM (l9zgN)

198
now they have to remake Dirty Dancing too

Posted by: Soothsayer at October 13, 2011 01:48 PM (sqkOB)

199 167 I have three adopted kids. One's bio-mom was unmarried, unemployed, and homeless when she conceived him. One was conceived by a woman who was a drug-addict who later went to prison for neglecting him. One was born to an alcoholic mother and father who lost custody after they let a babysitter molest him. Planned Parenthood would have said, "Abort them all, it's better that way."

Don't have to answer but I have two questions. At what age did you adopt them and how did they turn out? Had a childhood friend who was adopted after being neglected for his first 3 years. Adoptive family very loving, but the pychic damage was already done. He could never form any meaningful relationship. To this day his a loner.

Posted by: Sub-Tard at October 13, 2011 01:48 PM (0M3AQ)

200 IMHO, the Catholic position is more consistent.
Either someone is a human with God-given rights or they aren't. If
they're human, it doesn't matter how they came to be or if they will be
born "defective."

Posted by: Y-not at October 13, 2011 01:32 PM (5H6zj)

EXACTLY! 100% consistent, considering their total opposition to capital punishment,and euthanasia as well.

Posted by: Vergeltung at October 13, 2011 01:49 PM (jttPx)

201

Is a fetus a human being?

No, it's a surprise!

Posted by: Soothsayer at October 13, 2011 01:49 PM (sqkOB)

202 Again, I really do understand your point... and the only way I can
square the circle of my position on this is that abortion is a
deplorable vice that should be illegal when it's for mere convenience...
but not the same thing as murder.

Yeah. I just think you need to consider the moral premise that allows you to say that abortion isn't the same as murder. You have to have a reason that abortion is not the same as murder- when you know that abortion is the taking of an innocent life.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) is tired beyond tired of the trolls at October 13, 2011 01:50 PM (8y9MW)

203 Let me be clear...... all of this science and religion talk is above my pay grade.

Posted by: Preznit Training Pants at October 13, 2011 01:50 PM (jucos)

204 @186: If you haven't noticed, pop culture is largely being driven by mid 30s-to-mid 40s "children of the 80s" lately. As someone in that age range, I enjoy it greatly when they get it right (the various references on "Chuck") but this sort of blind remaking is lame.

On the plus side, Footloose was an incredibly stupid movie the first time (the plot is straight out of a Kos fever dream) so they aren't doing much damage.

Posted by: Ian S. at October 13, 2011 01:50 PM (tqwMN)

205 I agree with that. I just think it's way more complicated once we bring the idea of Justice into it. God Himself is on the side of capitol punishment- so I don't get how the Catholic Church cannot be.We'll just disagree then.
I would point out that I can come up with just as many Bible verses to support opposition to capital punishment (mostly New Testament) as you can to support capital punishment (mostly Old Testament)

Posted by: Sean Bannion at October 13, 2011 01:50 PM (sbV1u)

206
We never know what that 'fetus' will become until the day of the birth.

Could be anything, really. A kitten, a guppy, a toaster, anything.

Posted by: Soothsayer at October 13, 2011 01:50 PM (sqkOB)

207 Without language contortions or their variation of Orwell's Newspeak "Planned Parenthood" would be called more accurately labeled the infanticide that it really is.

But that wouldn't be "Politically Correct" or maybe it would be Hate Speech or some other engineered crime against their make believe humanity.

Posted by: ontherocks at October 13, 2011 01:51 PM (HBqDo)

208 they went and did it

they re-made Footloose.

Why???

Posted by: Soothsayer at October 13, 2011 01:46 PM (sqkOB)
Whyyyyyyy?????Whyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy??????????

Posted by: Nancy Kerrigan at October 13, 2011 01:51 PM (CE2wR)

209 Is a fetus a human being?

It's the prototype for a punishment.

Posted by: Barack H. Obama, Esq. at October 13, 2011 01:52 PM (tqwMN)

210 I would point out that I can come up with just as many Bible verses to support opposition to capital punishment (mostly New Testament)

You can? I haven't found a single one. Certainly it doesn't say, anywhere, that someone who had committed murder (for instance) shouldn't be put to death.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) is tired beyond tired of the trolls at October 13, 2011 01:52 PM (8y9MW)

211 Marital rape leading to pregnancy?

I think youll find that if were going to go to the trouble of raping our wives, were going to go anal.

Posted by: jwest at October 13, 2011 01:52 PM (qeYI9)

212 It just feels to me that forcing a girl to carry a rapist's child in her womb to term amounts to extending the rape by 9 months.

So, you're all for forcing full restoration of treasure and property to victims of burglary? How about assault and murder (good luck with the latter)?

Winding up on the wrong end of any such act has lingering consequences. If you're not going to attempt to make whole any of those others, don't even begin to talk to me about mitigating consequences of rape by aborting an innocent.

Not. One. Word.

Posted by: DarkLordŠ sez Obama is a stuttering clusterf--- of a miserable failure
Oh, and F--- Nevada! at October 13, 2011 01:53 PM (GBXon)

213 Have we bombed Iran yet?

Posted by: Honey Badger at October 13, 2011 01:54 PM (GvYeG)

214 You can? I haven't found a single one. Certainly it doesn't say, anywhere, that someone who had committed murder (for instance) shouldn't be put to death.Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) is tired beyond tired of the trolls at October 13, 2011 01:52 PM (8y9MW)
Yes, I can. You can read the Bibleliterally, morally, allegorically, or anagogically.
You'll also spend a lifetime trying to discover its exact meaning in any given instance.

Posted by: Sean Bannion at October 13, 2011 01:55 PM (sbV1u)

215 211
Marital rape leading to pregnancy?

I think youll find that if were going to go to the trouble of raping our wives, were going to go anal.

Excellent point. You would think a Priest would know this.

Posted by: Sub-Tard at October 13, 2011 01:55 PM (0M3AQ)

216 Church's position is that Capitol punishment is allowed (was allowed) should be allowed in the case of murder when there is no doubt about the guilt of the murderer and if there is no other way to secure the safety of other innocent. So, for example, if you have access to a maximum security prison you shouldn't kill the bad guy. If you are lost in the Andes and one of your party is killing people for food or because he's nuts and you catch him you can kill him.
It's actually intellectually consistent. I like to pretend that the fact that capitol punishment keeps people from getting out of prison and killing and it keeps people from killing in the first place because they're afraid of the death penalty. So I'm intellectually consistent too.
The Church also has the problem of having a position for Americans and for Kurdfuckacheckoslavakastanis that has to be the same.

Posted by: dagny at October 13, 2011 01:55 PM (yIuXz)

217 ""OT - Surely the Iranians are quaking in their boots over this "threat" by the Obama Administration.""

Well of course, Preznit erkle threatened them with the comfy chair.

Posted by: Berserker at October 13, 2011 01:56 PM (FMbng)

218 Yeah. I just think you need to consider the moral premise that allows you to say that abortion isn't the same as murder. You have to have a reason that abortion is not the same as murder- when you know that abortion is the taking of an innocent life.
Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) is tired beyond tired of the trolls at October 13, 2011 01:50 PM (8y9MW)

Well, look: What do we as a society do with murderers that premeditated their crime?
We put them away for life. Or, in some states, we execute them.
How many of us would really send girls that got abortions to prison for life, or seek the death penalty for them? Not just the abortionist... but the girl paying for the act?
I'm not saying abortion is fine, it's not. Each and everyone is a tragedy, it coarsens our culture,cheapens our regard for human life. And, it causes demographic disaster.But is it murder?You know, at 8 months, sure...at least the abortionist should be put away for life, IMO. But, let's say, 2 months? I just don't see it.

Posted by: CoolCzech at October 13, 2011 01:56 PM (Iaxlk)

219 Adoption is always an option, remember. And, yes, that still means the poor 13-yo rape victim (in your example) is going to have to go through 9 months of pregnancy and labor. Sometimes a crime has lingering consequences.
Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) is tired beyond tired of the trolls at October 13, 2011 01:37 PM (8y9MW)
This. It's awful, and the victim should get all the love and support and counseling in the world. But it's not the baby's fault.
It is, however, just one more reason why I believe that rapists -- especially those who rape children or their own family members -- should get the death penalty. If they like forced sex so much, they may ride the barbed cock of Satan for all eternity.

Posted by: MWR, Proud Tea(rrorist) Party Hobbit at October 13, 2011 01:57 PM (4df7R)

220 I demand that Governor Romney repudiate his wife's contribution to a Satanic organization !!!111eleventy!!!.

Posted by: The Poster Formerly Known as Mr. Barky at October 13, 2011 01:58 PM (qwK3S)

221 But, let's say, 2 months? I just don't see it.
Posted by: CoolCzech at October 13, 2011 01:56 PM (Iaxlk)
You ever see an ultrasound at 2 months?

Posted by: Sean Bannion at October 13, 2011 01:58 PM (sbV1u)

222 198 now they have to remake Dirty Dancing too
Posted by: Soothsayer at October 13, 2011 01:48 PM (sqkOB)
Prediction: The guy will be uglier and the girl prettier.

Posted by: dagny at October 13, 2011 01:59 PM (yIuXz)

223 How long have I been telling you not to mock me.

Posted by: The Slippery Slope at October 13, 2011 01:59 PM (qwK3S)

224 213 Have we bombed Iran yet?

Funny you should say that. While a recruit at Parris Island during the Carter malaise days we would chant "Bomb Iran, Bomb Iran, Oh My God Bomb Iran" just before assuming the horizontal at attention stance in our racks. I surmised a couple of years ago that I had spent my entire adult life in one form or another trying to correct the failings of JIMMAY CARTER. And here we are again. Fucking amazing. Double fucking amazing when you consider CRA was a JIMMAY product as well. Just double fucking amazing.

Posted by: Sub-Tard at October 13, 2011 01:59 PM (0M3AQ)

225 Facts? We don't need no education.

Empirical science doesn't substantiate the economic viability of green energy. Historical data needed revisionism and fabricated statistics in order to propagandize algore's fraud as if science. And eugenics has never touted "compassion" except to excuse sterilization and killing to put miserable creatures out of the way to do ourselves a favor. Final solutions are so effective.

In biological science, a seed's germination marks the onset of its life cycle. Yes, it will require an appropriate environment; sunlight, soil and water. /But since a sprout can not survive and mature independently, sprouting marks no life./

#130 Sprouts? Hippy food. It's organic.

Posted by: didn't take long at October 13, 2011 02:02 PM (lpWVn)

226 How many of us would really send
girls that got abortions to prison for life, or seek the death penalty
for them? Not just the abortionist... but the girl paying for the act?Posted by: CoolCzech at October 13, 2011 01:56 PM (Iaxlk)

Society doesn't punish mothers for killing their chidren at any age. We get pity and the men in our lives take the blame.

Anybody need a bath?

Posted by: Andrea Yates at October 13, 2011 02:03 PM (FkKjr)

227 Oh, and the conversation always goes to abortion and/or captial punishment. Look at the numbers. Millions of babies/dozens of murderers. Really?

Posted by: dagny at October 13, 2011 02:03 PM (yIuXz)

228 How many of us would really send girls that got abortions to prison for
life, or seek the death penalty for them? Not just the abortionist...
but the girl paying for the act?

Well, if it were illegal? Me, for one.

I'm a very right-and-wrong kind of guy, though. I don't think there is a nearly as much middle ground as some people do.

Of course, the other difference, here, is that murder is highly disruptive- in measurable ways- to society right now. Abortion is theoretically disruptive to society sometime in the future.

To me, it ceases being a question of morality once guilt is determined. It then becomes a question of Justice. Justice must serve to protect society in general- but, since society is imperfect, it must also exercise some amount of mercy and understanding. It's a hard line to walk, but I think our justice system should attempt to walk it.

That means that, potentially, at least- the girl and the abortionist would receive a greatly reduced sentence in the case of a rape victim. Any given jury might even declare the girl "not guilty" because of "justifiable homicide."

I'm not saying it's not hard. It is. But sometimes being hard is the best way.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) is tired beyond tired of the trolls at October 13, 2011 02:03 PM (8y9MW)

229 "i'm looking for that part in the Bible Jesus started kicking out
supporters from his sermons because they weren't pure or something..."

Jesus made moral and behavioral demands on his followers all the time. "Do your own thing" was not the message of His ministry.

Posted by: Kensington at October 13, 2011 02:04 PM (/AHDz)

230 But, let's say, 2 months? I just don't see it.
Get your eyes checked.

Posted by: didn't take long at October 13, 2011 02:04 PM (lpWVn)

231 211
Marital rape leading to pregnancy?
One minute I was drinking too much Val-U-Rite, the next the doc was telling me I was a Daddy. RAPE!!!

Posted by: CoolCzech at October 13, 2011 02:05 PM (Iaxlk)

232 "How many of us would really send girls that got abortions to prison for life, or seek the death penalty for them? Not just the abortionist... but the girl paying for the act?"

Me.

Posted by: Random at October 13, 2011 02:05 PM (YiE0S)

233 "Do your own thing" was not the message of His ministry.
Be perfect, even as your father in heaven is perfect. Love.

Posted by: Jesus at October 13, 2011 02:06 PM (lpWVn)

234 How many of us would really send girls that got abortions to prison for life, or seek the death penalty for them? Not just the abortionist... but the girl paying for the act?Posted by: CoolCzech at October 13, 2011 01:56 PM (Iaxlk)Society doesn't punish mothers for killing their chidren at any age. We get pity and the men in our lives take the blame.Anybody need a bath?
Posted by: Andrea Yates at October 13, 2011 02:03 PM (FkKjr)
My point is, Even most of the people that say abortion is murder flinch at the full consequences of that statement being true.

Posted by: CoolCzech at October 13, 2011 02:06 PM (Iaxlk)

235 Don't forget "Go and sin no more."

Posted by: Jesus at October 13, 2011 02:07 PM (/AHDz)

236 Jesus told people that their sins were forgiven and to go and NOT sin again. He didn't say, "Ok loose woman get the hell out!" but he ALSO didn't say, "Sure loose woman, keep doin' what you're doin' and everything will be fine." He wanted people to do what he said and gave them the chance to choose it.

Posted by: dagny at October 13, 2011 02:07 PM (yIuXz)

237 Hey look! I think the same as Jesus!! Whoa. That is heavy.

Posted by: dagny at October 13, 2011 02:07 PM (yIuXz)

238 "i'm looking for that part in the Bible Jesus started kicking out
supporters from his sermons because they weren't pure or something..."

People forget Jesus spent half of his sermons telling people that the wicked were going to burn and get their shit kicked in when God finally had enough.

Posted by: Bevel Lemelisk at October 13, 2011 02:08 PM (FkKjr)

239 232 Me too or something. It would depend on the circumstance but not nothing.

Posted by: dagny at October 13, 2011 02:08 PM (yIuXz)

240 Posted by: dagny at October 13, 2011 02:07 PM (yIuXz)
The divine light must be in you.
A touch of the comedian too...

Posted by: Sean Bannion at October 13, 2011 02:09 PM (sbV1u)

241 My husband likes the Jeff Foxworthy tale where he wakes up and finds out he has a wife, three kids, a house and a minivan and the last thing he remembered was that he was just tryin to get laid.

Posted by: dagny at October 13, 2011 02:10 PM (yIuXz)

242 Jesus is a myth or, at best, a well-meaning buy deluded cult leader.

You are his residual followers.

There is no "God": There is only death, for you and for everyone you love.

If you create children, as is natural, you create them to live ... and to die. You create them to feel and think and want ... and then to cease to exist.

Posted by: Random at October 13, 2011 02:11 PM (YiE0S)

243 *but

Posted by: Random at October 13, 2011 02:11 PM (YiE0S)

244 If you create children, as is natural, you create them to live ... and to die. You create them to feel and think and want ... and then to cease to exist.
You'd do us all a favor if you'd cease to exist.
Here at a minimum. But in perpetuity if possible.

Posted by: Sean Bannion at October 13, 2011 02:12 PM (sbV1u)

245 Rather than telling kids they don't count in society,
"Suffer the little children to come unto me,
for of such is the kingdom of heaven."

On the death penalty for consensual sexual promiscuity,
particularly directed to patriarchal chauvinistic hypocrites,
"whoever is without fault, cast the first stone."

Posted by: Jesus at October 13, 2011 02:12 PM (lpWVn)

246 In retrospect there was a girl a little over 50 years ago with a manly sounding name that I could now find it in my heart to forgive if she'd thrown herself down the stairs decades before 52% of the voters did the same.

Don't hold your breath waiting for me to denounce myself for some really unfortunate irony.

Posted by: ontherocks at October 13, 2011 02:16 PM (HBqDo)

247
242
Jesus is a myth or, at best, a well-meaning buy deluded cult leader.

You are his residual followers.

There is no "God": There is only death, for you and for everyone you love.

If you create children, as is natural, you create them to live ... and
to die. You create them to feel and think and want ... and then to cease
to exist.

Posted by: Random at October 13, 2011 02:11 PM (YiE0S)

I pity you for the bleakness of your existence.Take heart, though, because you are completely wrong.

Posted by: KinleyArdal at October 13, 2011 02:16 PM (EISTs)

248 Posted by: Random at October 13, 2011 02:11 PM (YiE0S)

Whelp, four aphorisms have just ended a five thousand year religious debate. It was a good run, life having purpose and meaning, but pack it up everybody. Let's talk about which type of nihilism and misery we prefer.

Posted by: Bevel Lemelisk at October 13, 2011 02:16 PM (FkKjr)

249 I don't think anyone wants the death penalty for consensual sexual promiscuity or even for abortion (Except in the case of that supercreep Kermit in Philly--ugh).

Posted by: dagny at October 13, 2011 02:17 PM (yIuXz)

250 Steve Jobs parents were unmarried grad students. They gave him up and got married later. I'm guessing that in San Francisco after Roe v Wade he would not have been allowed to live.

Posted by: dagny at October 13, 2011 02:19 PM (yIuXz)

251
Jesus is a myth

He was referenced in this discussion first by those misquoting Jesus to substantiate their own criticism.

On Myth, Joseph Campbell explained it since you're still stuck on stupid.

Of course mortality means "death" to the human. That didn't inhibit Steve Jobs "life" as he looked forward to death.

Posted by: didn't take long at October 13, 2011 02:20 PM (lpWVn)

252 death, no quotes

end of all thought, feeling, senses, and time

Posted by: Random at October 13, 2011 02:22 PM (YiE0S)

253 Moloch:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moloch

Posted by: Victrola at October 13, 2011 02:23 PM (X3Y9c)

254 Posted by: Random at October 13, 2011 02:22 PM (YiE0S)

bwahahaha, and yet you fill in your own blank, another quote for "no quotes"

Posted by: didn't take long at October 13, 2011 02:24 PM (lpWVn)

255 That didn't inhibit Steve Jobs "life" as he looked forward to death.

Posted by: didn't take long at October 13, 2011 02:20 PM (lpWVn)
Freudian slip, or inconvenient choice of words?Nihilists are always astonishing to listen to.

Posted by: KinleyArdal at October 13, 2011 02:24 PM (EISTs)

256 >>end of all thought, feeling, senses, and timePosted by: Random at October 13, 2011 02:22 PM (YiE0S) Kinda like your thoughtful comments, ya mean?

Posted by: ontherocks at October 13, 2011 02:24 PM (HBqDo)

257 Kinda like your "thoughtful" comments, ya mean?
FIFY ;-)

Posted by: Sean Bannion at October 13, 2011 02:25 PM (sbV1u)

258 Random is nonexistent.

Posted by: didn't take long at October 13, 2011 02:25 PM (lpWVn)

259 it doesn't think
therefore it isn't

Posted by: didn't take long at October 13, 2011 02:26 PM (lpWVn)

260 >>it doesn't thinktherefore it isn'tPosted by: didn't take long at October 13, 2011 02:26 PM (lpWVn) Too bad that's not a reality, it would wipe out most of the Left side of the political spectrum neatly and bloodlessly.

Posted by: ontherocks at October 13, 2011 02:31 PM (HBqDo)

261 Jesus is a myth or, at best, a well-meaning buy deluded cult leader. You are his residual followers. There is no "God": There is only death, for you and for everyone you love. If you create children, as is natural, you create them to live ... and to die. You create them to feel and think and want ... and then to cease to exist.
Posted by: Random at October 13, 2011 02:11 PM (YiE0S)
Regarding Jesus, I would say that if look at him at STRICTLY merely a historical figure... he was the most significant human being that ever lived. He transformed the values of the world we live in in an incredible way... think of him as the Steve Jobs of human morality, if you will.
I, though, see him as MORE than merely human.
Which brings me to the rest of your position: it's true is a bleak, nihilistic sort of view, that is utterly hopeless. But of course, that alone does not necessarily mean it's not true.
The real criticism, I think, of your stated viewpoint is that it explains NOTHING. Nothing about why there is anything at all. Nothing about what Justice matters... in fact, your viewpoint suggests strongly that justice does NOT matter at all, because in the end we are all dead, so Who Cares?
That is where I believe "faith" comes in: my faith is that the Cosmos exist because it is Good that they do so. Justice is important because there is a Just God. The Universe and all that is in it exist and matter because it is morally imperative that they do so.
That's not a statement that science can prove, but it is an elegant viewpoint that neatly ties Existence to Morality and Justice.

Posted by: CoolCzech at October 13, 2011 02:32 PM (Iaxlk)

262 It can't see me, therefore I can't see it.

Posted by: The Retarded Ostrich at October 13, 2011 02:34 PM (Iaxlk)

263 BTW, I heard on the radio that Steve Job's biological Dad was a Syrian hailing from the town that is currently the epicenter of the protests in Syria.
Who'd a thunk??

Posted by: CoolCzech at October 13, 2011 02:36 PM (Iaxlk)

264 There is no "God": There is only death, for you and for everyone you love.

Oh. Good. So I can rape all those you love in front of you, maim them all, and kill you slowly- and it won't matter! Yes! Liberation at last!

If there is no God, there is no Good. There is also no reason for me not to do exactly that to anyone I want.

Think about it.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) is tired beyond tired of the trolls at October 13, 2011 02:50 PM (8y9MW)

265 "I don't think anyone wants the death penalty for consensual sexual promiscuity"

I do. So watch it.

Posted by: Kensington at October 13, 2011 02:53 PM (/AHDz)

266 Of course an embryo is a human being, a unique organism.

That's exactly why people who have abortions want to kill it.

Posted by: Phinn at October 13, 2011 03:10 PM (KNtHw)

267 Science is a tool to better understand our world. A much better tool than relying on someone else to tell me what some sky-daddy told them to tell me.
and to 264, if the only reason you aren't a rapist and a murderer is because you think a cosmic surveillance camera is watching, then you have some pretty severe issues.

Posted by: Bullshit at October 13, 2011 03:28 PM (N4deu)

268 267 That's the point asshole. The tards, including yourself, love science but PP is telling the kids to ignore the science because only they know when a fetus is alive.
Idiot

Posted by: dagny at October 13, 2011 04:05 PM (yIuXz)

269 dagny? what exactly do you have against retards?
Oh, is it the fact that they are "moochers" and can't create wealth?

Posted by: Bullshit at October 13, 2011 04:11 PM (4Sk9K)

270 Science is a tool to better understand our world. A much better tool
than relying on someone else to tell me what some sky-daddy told them to
tell me.
Oh, so you've performed every single scientific experiment ever done firsthand to validate the results, or are you going to admit that you rely on what *other* people tell you their scientific results were?
Funny thing about science is how the most zealous Believers are people who aren't in a scientific field. To them, it's just as much a 'sky-daddy'.
For example, science relies upon the assumption that the universe is uniform and that the rules won't suddenly change. There's no reason to assume that will hold - in order to guarantee that physical laws cannot change, you would have to perfectly understand them, which defeats the goals of science. Early scientists began to study the world around them under the guiding assumption that a Perfect Being wouldn't randomly change the rules.
if the only reason you aren't a
rapist and a murderer is because you think a cosmic surveillance camera
is watching, then you have some pretty severe issues.

Posted by: Bullshit at October 13, 2011 03:28 PM (N4deu)
In a world without 'cosmic surveillance' where nothing matters, there's no such thing as 'issues.' There's just what happens.

Posted by: Bevel Lemelisk at October 13, 2011 04:24 PM (FkKjr)

271 Obama is a stuttering clusterf*ck of a miserable failure.

Posted by: steevy at October 13, 2011 04:52 PM (fyOgS)

272 **Since premature babies can survive as early as 22 weeks, I'd say their hearts begin to beat much earlier than 24 weeks.
Posted by: huerfano at October 13, 2011 01:14 PM (fecOD) **The heart begins beating around 21 days after conception, often before most women realize they are pregnant. It is not audible to the human ear by standard means until a few weeks later. At 21 days a rudimentary neural system is also formed. It's not known at what point unborn babies can feel pain but science is determining it is earlier and earlier than ever thought.

Posted by: misty at October 13, 2011 05:45 PM (JPDkr)

273 In a world without 'cosmic surveillance' where nothing matters, there's no such thing as 'issues.' There's just what happens.

Yep.

Posted by: we are legion at October 13, 2011 05:53 PM (IfkGz)

274 Abortion is morally wrong. Period.
Stronger laws against rapists. (I personally favor facial branding).
More support for victims.
A teenager who gets an abortion will have issues for much longer than 9 months.
My sister's classmate was pressured by her parents to have an abortion in high school and ran away. No one has seen or heard a thing of her in 33 years since, except for a few years after she left. She was seen with her baby girl in the background of a PBS show.

Posted by: Justamom at October 13, 2011 06:13 PM (Sptt8)

275 Re Nancy Pelosi:
She is already de facto excommunicated.
Catholics know this.
Although it would be fun to trip her on her way down the aisle to receive holy communion, it is not necessary.
She receives no spiritual nourishment, but it would please me if the USCB would formalize this publically so she is denied her hypocrite ego trip.

Posted by: Justamom at October 13, 2011 06:26 PM (Sptt8)

276 The heart begins beating around 21
days after conception, often before most women realize they are
pregnant. It is not audible to the human ear by standard means until a
few weeks later. At 21 days a rudimentary neural system is also
formed. It's not known at what point unborn babies can feel pain but
science is determining it is earlier and earlier than ever thought.

Posted by: misty at October 13, 2011 05:45 PM (JPDkr)
--Yup, in my wife's first ultrasound, probably around 20 days, there was a heartbeat, which appeared like a blinking cursor in the monitor.. Crazy.

Posted by: logprof at October 13, 2011 07:48 PM (QaKuj)

277 You really make it seem so uderstandable with your presentation but I find this topic before really hard to understand. It seems too complicated and very broad for me.

Posted by: Instant Manifestation ePub at October 13, 2011 08:19 PM (Oai0c)

278 The part about the heart beat realy struck me.

"They say 21 days we say it starts at 24 weeks!"

Problem with mentioning this while speaking of "ultimate" and "scientific" truths is that a heartbeat is something easily measured. It can be tested for and verified.

They say truth but mean consensus. They want to be able to merely disagree with something, throw their hands in the air declaring that no consensus has been met and we can ultimately know nothing and because of that they should have their way.

Posted by: Robert at October 13, 2011 08:43 PM (F79HU)

279 I have been absent for some time, but now I remember why I used to love this website. Thanks , I will try and check back more frequently. How frequently you update your web site?

Posted by: The Girl Project iBooks at October 13, 2011 08:46 PM (3xMOs)

280 I just cant stop reading this. Its so cool, so full of information that I just didnt know. Im glad to see that people are actually writing about this issue in such a smart way, showing us all different sides to it. Youre a great blogger. Please keep it up. I cant wait to read whats next.

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281 Ive been looking everywhere for this! Thank goodness I found it on Bing.Thx

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Posted by: blade&soul at October 14, 2011 03:04 AM (mnmu0)

284 we can ultimately know nothing and because of that they should have their way twist stepper LED Display LED Screen LED Sign welding machine

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