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The Path to Prosperity (Episode 2): Saving Medicare, Visualized
Paul Ryan explains medicare reform.
So the question many are asking is, should Ryan ride to the rescue? If the election is going to be a referendum on his plan, maybe the one guy who can sell it should do just that. On Monday, House majority leader Eric Cantor called for Ryan to get in the race, saying, “Paul’s about real leadership.” Charles Krauthammer on Fox News’s Special Report said he wouldn’t just urge Ryan to run, he’d form a “posse.” If Ryan ran, he would probably drive the other candidates farther away from his own plan while forcing them to come up with serious alternatives of their own. Many think that if he got the nomination, he would clean Obama’s clock in the debates. It’s a lot to ask. He has three young kids and would have to get organized and funded from a cold start for a long-shot run. But politics is about moments, and this one is calling him. Unless someone suddenly rises to the challenge, the cries of “Help us, Paul Ryan, you’re our only hope!” will only get louder.History isn't just knocking; it's beating down the door.
Comments
(Jump to bottom of comments)1
This is way, way too radical. Right-wing social engineering is no better than left-wing social engineering. I'm not experienced in government, but I'm pretty sure I can do better. First thing is to have a national conversation.
Posted by: Newt "I don't even know where DC is" Gingrich at May 25, 2011 08:20 AM (1fanL)
2
Too bad that makes too much sense and was presented in too clear of a format.
Posted by: Tampa Illini at May 25, 2011 08:28 AM (NXw/I)
3
I wish he would run for president.
Posted by: rdbrewer at May 25, 2011 08:30 AM (6L9U5)
4
I'm pretty certain this shit won't float. Like the man said, imagine the stupidity of the average American, and then imagine that half are stupider than that. This is industrial strength stupidity.
I embrace the doom. I welcome it. I'm even OK with Paddy O'Bama and John Holdren's death panels. March these pathetic gubmint clingers off into the soylent. Let's get it over right now, and get back to a country where the poor are thin skinny.
I embrace the doom. I welcome it. I'm even OK with Paddy O'Bama and John Holdren's death panels. March these pathetic gubmint clingers off into the soylent. Let's get it over right now, and get back to a country where the poor are thin skinny.
Posted by: the Charlie Daniels of the torque wrench at May 25, 2011 08:31 AM (le5qc)
5
Nothing passes the American public that don't contain unicorns and skittles. Get real people. We all see the approaching train wreck. It's an individual decision to get out of the way.
Posted by: the Charlie Daniels of the torque wrench at May 25, 2011 08:34 AM (le5qc)
Posted by: Vic at May 25, 2011 08:34 AM (M9Ie6)
Posted by: mark x at May 25, 2011 08:37 AM (plLN9)
8
Maybe they could put bureaucrats and AARP lobbyists in a wheelchair and push them off a cliff
Posted by: AE at May 25, 2011 08:37 AM (YYjeh)
9
It's almost like he has a duty to run for president.
Posted by: rdbrewer at May 25, 2011 08:37 AM (6L9U5)
10
Okay, as I understand it, this is radical shit and we should disavow it so we can get GOP re-elected so they can do......what, exactly?
Posted by: nickless at May 25, 2011 08:38 AM (MMC8r)
11
As long as there even appears to be a gummint teat to suckle, there will be at least 50% of the voting population standing in line for a "free" drink. Even if you could explain the problem to then, they would still stand in the line waiting for their turn.
Posted by: Hrothgar at May 25, 2011 08:38 AM (yrGif)
12
If he announced today he would go immediately to the top of my short list.
Posted by: Vic at May 25, 2011 08:38 AM (M9Ie6)
13
I have no idea why Scott Brown is running from this.
Posted by: Lemon Kitten at May 25, 2011 08:39 AM (0fzsA)
14
9, A man with that much common sense and love of country has to be feeling it. The pull of duty.
Posted by: Oldsailor's poet at May 25, 2011 08:39 AM (NtTkA)
15
Let's get it over right now, and get back to a country where the poor are thin skinny.
Posted by: the Charlie Daniels of the torque wrench at May 25, 2011 08:31 AM (le5qc)
Yeah, every time I see a grotesquely obese poor person, it fills me with an urge to increase welfare bennies.
Posted by: the Charlie Daniels of the torque wrench at May 25, 2011 08:31 AM (le5qc)
Yeah, every time I see a grotesquely obese poor person, it fills me with an urge to increase welfare bennies.
Posted by: FUBAR, Heartless Bastard at May 25, 2011 08:39 AM (1fanL)
16
Okay, as I understand it, this is radical shit and
we should disavow it so we can get GOP re-elected so they can
do......what, exactly?
Posted by: nickless at May 25, 2011 08:38 AM (MMC8r)
Don't hold your breath waiting for establishment RINOs to actually DO anything constructive--vote Dem for Hope and Change!
we should disavow it so we can get GOP re-elected so they can
do......what, exactly?
Posted by: nickless at May 25, 2011 08:38 AM (MMC8r)
Don't hold your breath waiting for establishment RINOs to actually DO anything constructive--vote Dem for Hope and Change!
Posted by: Micheal Steele, MSNBC Host at May 25, 2011 08:40 AM (yrGif)
17
It's not radical at all. It's an actual real life fix.
The radicals are all those who oppose this type of reform and insteaddemand the status quo.
The radicals are all those who oppose this type of reform and insteaddemand the status quo.
Posted by: Lemon Kitten at May 25, 2011 08:40 AM (0fzsA)
18
From the Trump article Vic linked below:
Winger made it clear that Trump just needs enough cash and fresh bodies
to collect signatures in each state before June 3 to get on ballots
nationwide.
No way. There isn't enough time.
Winger made it clear that Trump just needs enough cash and fresh bodies
to collect signatures in each state before June 3 to get on ballots
nationwide.
No way. There isn't enough time.
Posted by: rdbrewer at May 25, 2011 08:41 AM (6L9U5)
19
Scott Brown ,who ran as a reformer and who lives in a state where government control over health care is not working - should embrace this.
Posted by: Lemon Kitten at May 25, 2011 08:42 AM (0fzsA)
20
A vote for the Dem party is a vote for a corrupt welfare state.
Posted by: Lemon Kitten at May 25, 2011 08:43 AM (0fzsA)
21
Wow, that's a very colorful tie.
I'd rather have this guy where he is because there he can influence legislation. If you want to make a statement vote for a President, if you want to make a difference vote for a Senator/Representative.
I'd rather have this guy where he is because there he can influence legislation. If you want to make a statement vote for a President, if you want to make a difference vote for a Senator/Representative.
Posted by: GGE of the Moron Horde at May 25, 2011 08:44 AM (f4gk9)
22
I said that to my class once, It's a math class and they asked about taxes so I hit them with a good dose of truth. Some how the conversation moved on to the poor. I said"poor"? "Really? Have you ever seen so many poor fat people in your life? I supplemented my comment with videos of real starving people from sub saharan Africa. My principal was not amused.
Posted by: Oldsailor's poet at May 25, 2011 08:45 AM (NtTkA)
23
Thanks but that was "Lady In Black" who posted rthe Trump link.
Posted by: Vic at May 25, 2011 08:45 AM (M9Ie6)
24
I understand why the Tired Rhino Sisters are running away from this plan, but I thought Scott Brown had a brain and some guts? Guess not.
Posted by: Lemon Kitten at May 25, 2011 08:45 AM (0fzsA)
25
Ryan is a career politician, no private sector leadership experience, we tried one of those. \\
Pass.
Pass.
Posted by: Tom at May 25, 2011 08:46 AM (nQR0p)
26
Dude, you need to score? I got weed, 'ludes and acid. Meet me at the corner of Nassau and Charlton. Be cool, I might want to run for President someday.
Posted by: Mitch 'Dude' Daniels at May 25, 2011 08:46 AM (le5qc)
27
Actually, Ryan's plan suffers from the same deal-breaking drawback as every single other plan. The same drawback that will doom any and every plan to deal with health care out there. The same drawback that will bankrupt us sooner rather than later.
There are no sticks. If someone's voucher runs out, or their ObamaCredits, or whatever is used to pay for health care (even money!), guess what? They're still going to get health care, and Uncle Sugar's gonna pay for it. As long as there's a law saying you can't turn people away because they can't pay, we're screwed.
Two things. Who wants to give odds the law requiring treatment for poor people will ever be repealed? How in the world did we manage before this law, which was only passed in 1986?
There are no sticks. If someone's voucher runs out, or their ObamaCredits, or whatever is used to pay for health care (even money!), guess what? They're still going to get health care, and Uncle Sugar's gonna pay for it. As long as there's a law saying you can't turn people away because they can't pay, we're screwed.
Two things. Who wants to give odds the law requiring treatment for poor people will ever be repealed? How in the world did we manage before this law, which was only passed in 1986?
Posted by: FUBAR at May 25, 2011 08:47 AM (1fanL)
28
It's not radical at all. It's an actual real life fix.
The radicals are all those who oppose this type of reform and insteaddemand the status quo.
Posted by: Lemon Kitten at May 25, 2011 08:40 AM (0fzsA)
So does that make the TEA partiers revolutionaries ? (NTTATWRT)Using the cliff analogy, it seems most of the "smarter" pols are saying "Well, we're not over the cliff in free fall just yet, maybe we can edge a little closer to the edge after all." The "stupid" pols are saying "That cliff is miles and miles away, step on the gas because we won't get there on my watch."The very few rational pols (like Ryan and ...) are trying to put forth an approach that might actually provide a workable structure for the future, but real planning is too hard for most folks. Besides, real planning leaves a paper trail that the traitorous opposition can use in lieu of doing anything constructive themselves.
Using C-4 is always more fun than using concrete!
The radicals are all those who oppose this type of reform and insteaddemand the status quo.
Posted by: Lemon Kitten at May 25, 2011 08:40 AM (0fzsA)
So does that make the TEA partiers revolutionaries ? (NTTATWRT)Using the cliff analogy, it seems most of the "smarter" pols are saying "Well, we're not over the cliff in free fall just yet, maybe we can edge a little closer to the edge after all." The "stupid" pols are saying "That cliff is miles and miles away, step on the gas because we won't get there on my watch."The very few rational pols (like Ryan and ...) are trying to put forth an approach that might actually provide a workable structure for the future, but real planning is too hard for most folks. Besides, real planning leaves a paper trail that the traitorous opposition can use in lieu of doing anything constructive themselves.
Using C-4 is always more fun than using concrete!
Posted by: Hrothgar at May 25, 2011 08:49 AM (yrGif)
29
Path to Properity = the opposite of Obams's corrupt scheme to fleece everyday Americans while his union/mob buddies get a waiver.
Posted by: Lemon Kitten at May 25, 2011 08:49 AM (0fzsA)
30
Ryan is a career politician, no private sector leadership experience, we tried one of those. \\Pass.
Posted by: Tom at May 25, 2011 08:46 AM (nQR0p)
We're doomed. No one is perfect, and therefore no one deserves the nomination.Welcome to your second term, Oblahblah. You're perfect.
Posted by: Tom at May 25, 2011 08:46 AM (nQR0p)
We're doomed. No one is perfect, and therefore no one deserves the nomination.Welcome to your second term, Oblahblah. You're perfect.
Posted by: FUBAR at May 25, 2011 08:49 AM (1fanL)
31
Print more money! Print more money! Raise Taxes! Add to the deficit! That's all we need. We hate you! waaaaaa do it our way waaaaa. We love Obama.
Posted by: Left wing Democrat Chorus at May 25, 2011 08:51 AM (0fzsA)
32
Kinda related...
I've been working at my local school system, working in the cafeteria.. (cue 'Lunch Lady Land' by Adam Sandler)
There's been a few people who pay $.40 (or close to it) for lunch because of public assistance (usual price is $2.00) but a few of them are always in name brand clothes..
Funny that..
I've been working at my local school system, working in the cafeteria.. (cue 'Lunch Lady Land' by Adam Sandler)
There's been a few people who pay $.40 (or close to it) for lunch because of public assistance (usual price is $2.00) but a few of them are always in name brand clothes..
Funny that..
Posted by: Dave C at May 25, 2011 08:51 AM (YPLGQ)
33
32, Oh , the stories I can tell, let's start with the $200 shoes but can't bring a pencil to class. We prvide them because the children are from a poor underserved community.
Posted by: Oldsailor's poet at May 25, 2011 08:56 AM (NtTkA)
34
I said that to my class once, It's a math class and
they asked about taxes so I hit them with a good dose of truth. Some how
the conversation moved on to the poor. I said"poor"? "Really? Have you
ever seen so many poor fat people in your life? I supplemented my
comment with videos of real starving people from sub saharan Africa. My
principal was not amused.
Posted by: Oldsailor's poet at May 25, 2011 08:45 AM (NtTkA)
Heh, very nice. I'd love to teach grade school, but there's no way in hell I'm going to teacher school after already getting two collidge degrees. That's insane.
they asked about taxes so I hit them with a good dose of truth. Some how
the conversation moved on to the poor. I said"poor"? "Really? Have you
ever seen so many poor fat people in your life? I supplemented my
comment with videos of real starving people from sub saharan Africa. My
principal was not amused.
Posted by: Oldsailor's poet at May 25, 2011 08:45 AM (NtTkA)
Heh, very nice. I'd love to teach grade school, but there's no way in hell I'm going to teacher school after already getting two collidge degrees. That's insane.
Posted by: FUBAR at May 25, 2011 08:57 AM (1fanL)
35
RD, maybe you should put Paul Ryan's e-mail address in the main body of the thread, that way morons can e-mail him to emplore him to run for the Presidency.
Posted by: Ben at May 25, 2011 08:58 AM (wuv1c)
36
If he announced today he would go immediately to the top of my short list.
Yeah, my short list would become
1. Paul Ryan
2. Paul Ryan
3. Paul Ryan
Yeah, my short list would become
1. Paul Ryan
2. Paul Ryan
3. Paul Ryan
Posted by: Ben at May 25, 2011 08:59 AM (wuv1c)
37
The background music that starts at about 3:19 -- isn't that from Apollo 13?
Posted by: Lickmuffin at May 25, 2011 09:00 AM (03CN7)
38
Two things. Who wants to give odds the law
requiring treatment for poor people will ever be repealed? How in the
world did we manage before this law, which was only passed in 1986?
Posted by: FUBAR at May 25, 2011 08:47 AM (1fanL)
I think we had more tightly knit communities, active (not activist) churches, and were a more charitable society as a consequence. We did not have an entitled class of millions of illegal aliens sucking up free emergency room care either.
Also, medical technology was more limited in its capabilities and thus less effective in prolonging life. Families did not expect 95 year old parents to stay on life support for years (with the bills paid by someone else).
There are real philosophical problems that are easy to demagogue and hard to answer when it comes to end of life care (I speak from personal experience).
I find it hard to accept (or actually desire) a government cost effectiveness panel of experts (with Bethesda Naval Hospital privileges) as the right solution. I do know that the current system is not going to survive, and I applaud Ryan for trying to frame a discussion about our financial future with ideas and details.
requiring treatment for poor people will ever be repealed? How in the
world did we manage before this law, which was only passed in 1986?
Posted by: FUBAR at May 25, 2011 08:47 AM (1fanL)
I think we had more tightly knit communities, active (not activist) churches, and were a more charitable society as a consequence. We did not have an entitled class of millions of illegal aliens sucking up free emergency room care either.
Also, medical technology was more limited in its capabilities and thus less effective in prolonging life. Families did not expect 95 year old parents to stay on life support for years (with the bills paid by someone else).
There are real philosophical problems that are easy to demagogue and hard to answer when it comes to end of life care (I speak from personal experience).
I find it hard to accept (or actually desire) a government cost effectiveness panel of experts (with Bethesda Naval Hospital privileges) as the right solution. I do know that the current system is not going to survive, and I applaud Ryan for trying to frame a discussion about our financial future with ideas and details.
Posted by: Hrothgar at May 25, 2011 09:01 AM (yrGif)
39
I have no idea why Scott Brown is running from this.
Because Scott Brown is a RINO. That's not an insult. He's 50% better than Ted Kennedy. And that's all you're going to get from Massachusetts.
Because Scott Brown is a RINO. That's not an insult. He's 50% better than Ted Kennedy. And that's all you're going to get from Massachusetts.
Posted by: Truman North at May 25, 2011 09:01 AM (K2wpv)
40
Need a WI 1st District zip code to email him.
Posted by: FUBAR at May 25, 2011 09:01 AM (1fanL)
41
I think we had more tightly knit
communities, active (not activist) churches, and were a more charitable
society as a consequence.
Posted by: Hrothgar at May 25, 2011 09:01 AM (yrGif)
I agree. And would add: people might be less charitable than in the past, because they figure their damn taxes includes their charity. But we're still pretty damned charitable.
communities, active (not activist) churches, and were a more charitable
society as a consequence.
Posted by: Hrothgar at May 25, 2011 09:01 AM (yrGif)
I agree. And would add: people might be less charitable than in the past, because they figure their damn taxes includes their charity. But we're still pretty damned charitable.
Posted by: FUBAR at May 25, 2011 09:04 AM (1fanL)
42
Posted by: FUBAR at May 25, 2011 09:01 AM (1fanL)
https://paulryan.house.gov/
Janesville Office
20 South Main StreetPhone: (60
752-4050Suite 10 Fax: (60 752-4711Janesville, WI 53545Toll Free: (88 909-RYAN (7926)
https://paulryan.house.gov/
Janesville Office
20 South Main StreetPhone: (60
752-4050Suite 10 Fax: (60 752-4711Janesville, WI 53545Toll Free: (88 909-RYAN (7926)
Posted by: Hrothgar at May 25, 2011 09:06 AM (yrGif)
43
34, I made my money already. I teach as my pinnacle of Maslows hierarchy of needs. It can be a lot of fun and very rewarding.
The classroom is such a small part of teaching. If I had a class full of kids that show up rested, fed and bathed I could do magic. Teachers are no longer teachers. Schools have been turned into a social service catch all for dysfunctional families and students. It's really fucked up. However, if I can move just one kid up, I have done something.
The classroom is such a small part of teaching. If I had a class full of kids that show up rested, fed and bathed I could do magic. Teachers are no longer teachers. Schools have been turned into a social service catch all for dysfunctional families and students. It's really fucked up. However, if I can move just one kid up, I have done something.
Posted by: Oldsailor's poet at May 25, 2011 09:07 AM (NtTkA)
44
With government in the middle sucking up money for their 'costs', it doesn't take a genius to see that a system constructed like this will eventually fail. Bureaucracies are good at doing one thing - creating bureaucrats. Couple that with the now infamous government unions that exponentially multiply that problem, even one program like this would eventually be enough to hamstring a country. We've now got three with Obamacare.
Posted by: Hussein the Plumber at May 25, 2011 09:08 AM (jx2j9)
45
https://paulryan.house.gov/
Janesville Office
20 South Main StreetPhone: (60 752-4050Suite 10 Fax: (60 752-4711Janesville, WI 53545Toll Free: (88 909-RYAN (7926)
Posted by: Hrothgar at May 25, 2011 09:06 AM (yrGif)
Is it safe to say that this information makes you smile?
Janesville Office
20 South Main StreetPhone: (60 752-4050Suite 10 Fax: (60 752-4711Janesville, WI 53545Toll Free: (88 909-RYAN (7926)
Posted by: Hrothgar at May 25, 2011 09:06 AM (yrGif)
Is it safe to say that this information makes you smile?
Posted by: FUBAR at May 25, 2011 09:08 AM (1fanL)
46
Ben, good idea.
Posted by: rdbrewer at May 25, 2011 09:08 AM (6L9U5)
47
1-888-909-7926 is his constituent hotline.
I went on google maps and looked up a random address in Kenosha which is his district.
I went on google maps and looked up a random address in Kenosha which is his district.
Posted by: Ben at May 25, 2011 09:10 AM (wuv1c)
48
34, I made my money already. I teach as my pinnacle of Maslows hierarchy of needs. It can be a lot of fun and very rewarding.
Posted by: Oldsailor's poet at May 25, 2011 09:07 AM (NtTkA)
Nooo, it's not the money, it's the idea that I'm somehow not qualified to teach unless I go to teacher school. I find that ridiculous.I've actually been thinking of a Sylvan Learning Center or something similar. I figure the kids are slightly more motivated and/or there are fewer to deal with at once.
Posted by: Oldsailor's poet at May 25, 2011 09:07 AM (NtTkA)
Nooo, it's not the money, it's the idea that I'm somehow not qualified to teach unless I go to teacher school. I find that ridiculous.I've actually been thinking of a Sylvan Learning Center or something similar. I figure the kids are slightly more motivated and/or there are fewer to deal with at once.
Posted by: FUBAR at May 25, 2011 09:10 AM (1fanL)
49
https://paulryan.house.gov/
Janesville Office
20 South Main Street
Suite 10
Janesville, WI 53545
Phone: (608 752-4050 Fax: (608 752-4711
Toll Free: (888 909-RYAN) (7926)
Should get you close.
I have found most of the pols don't let out their emails without a filter (certainly can't blame Rs for that precaution) and am finding my Congressman doesn't like to meet with constituents, either individually or in townhalls--imagine that.
Janesville Office
20 South Main Street
Suite 10
Janesville, WI 53545
Phone: (608 752-4050 Fax: (608 752-4711
Toll Free: (888 909-RYAN) (7926)
Should get you close.
I have found most of the pols don't let out their emails without a filter (certainly can't blame Rs for that precaution) and am finding my Congressman doesn't like to meet with constituents, either individually or in townhalls--imagine that.
Posted by: Hrothgar at May 25, 2011 09:10 AM (yrGif)
50
Is it safe to say that this information makes you smile?
Posted by: FUBAR at May 25, 2011 09:08 AM (1fanL)
I be a happy man!
Posted by: FUBAR at May 25, 2011 09:08 AM (1fanL)
I be a happy man!
Posted by: Hrothgar at May 25, 2011 09:12 AM (yrGif)
51
There are no sticks. If someone's voucher runs out, or their ObamaCredits, or whatever is used to pay for health care (even money!), guess what? They're still going to get health care, and Uncle Sugar's gonna pay for it. As long as there's a law saying you can't turn people away because they can't pay, we're screwed.Uncle Sugar will pay for it or every other person with insurance will pay for it through increased rates.
At the very least I would like to see the patient required to present either an insurance card, a welfare card, a credit card, or a valid ID at the time of treatment so that the provider can know whom to file suit against for non-payment of services rendered. And no ID = call the po-po and/or La Migra because a lot of the people getting free treatment aren't supposed to be here in the first place.
At the very least I would like to see the patient required to present either an insurance card, a welfare card, a credit card, or a valid ID at the time of treatment so that the provider can know whom to file suit against for non-payment of services rendered. And no ID = call the po-po and/or La Migra because a lot of the people getting free treatment aren't supposed to be here in the first place.
Posted by: Ghost of Lee Atwater at May 25, 2011 09:12 AM (JxMoP)
52
Teachers are no longer teachers. Schools have been turned into a social service catch all for dysfunctional families and students. It's really fucked up. However, if I can move just one kid up, I have done something.
Yeah, that is one area in which I am sympathetic with teachers. Especially in certain areas. Many of them are nothing more than government funded daycare centers.
While I also blame parents and schools, I think teachers should be given much more authority. As it stands a teacher can't really do anything to punish a kid or get troublemakers dismissed from their class.
I'm of the opinion that if a kid is ruining class for all the other students then he should be expelled. Let him get an early start on digging ditches as that will probably be his career anyway.
Yeah, that is one area in which I am sympathetic with teachers. Especially in certain areas. Many of them are nothing more than government funded daycare centers.
While I also blame parents and schools, I think teachers should be given much more authority. As it stands a teacher can't really do anything to punish a kid or get troublemakers dismissed from their class.
I'm of the opinion that if a kid is ruining class for all the other students then he should be expelled. Let him get an early start on digging ditches as that will probably be his career anyway.
Posted by: Ben at May 25, 2011 09:13 AM (wuv1c)
53
WOW!!!!!!
Paul Ryan is TEH AWESOME!!!!
And whoever did the graphic/illustrations is pretty awesome too.
And the music/orchestration.
Incredibly high production values in service of common-sense and honesty, all delivered clearly, articulately, understandably.
HOLY SHIT, REPUBLICANS CAN DO SOMETHING RIGHT!
(and not just bare-minimum right, but AWESOME right!)
Ladies and gentlemen, I have hope for the Republic!
Paul Ryan is TEH AWESOME!!!!
And whoever did the graphic/illustrations is pretty awesome too.
And the music/orchestration.
Incredibly high production values in service of common-sense and honesty, all delivered clearly, articulately, understandably.
HOLY SHIT, REPUBLICANS CAN DO SOMETHING RIGHT!
(and not just bare-minimum right, but AWESOME right!)
Ladies and gentlemen, I have hope for the Republic!
Posted by: Better dead than burqa'ed at May 25, 2011 09:13 AM (2AfqM)
54
52, Thank you, your comments are right on.
Posted by: Oldsailor's poet at May 25, 2011 09:14 AM (NtTkA)
55
With government in the middle sucking up money for
their 'costs', it doesn't take a genius to see that a system constructed
like this will eventually fail. Bureaucracies are good at doing one
thing - creating bureaucrats. Couple that with the now infamous
government unions that exponentially multiply that problem, even one
program like this would eventually be enough to hamstring a country.
We've now got three with Obamacare.
Posted by: Hussein the Plumber at May 25, 2011 09:08 AM (jx2j9)
You forgot "appointed activist judges" dictating budgets to elected state governments as yet another progressive contribution.
their 'costs', it doesn't take a genius to see that a system constructed
like this will eventually fail. Bureaucracies are good at doing one
thing - creating bureaucrats. Couple that with the now infamous
government unions that exponentially multiply that problem, even one
program like this would eventually be enough to hamstring a country.
We've now got three with Obamacare.
Posted by: Hussein the Plumber at May 25, 2011 09:08 AM (jx2j9)
You forgot "appointed activist judges" dictating budgets to elected state governments as yet another progressive contribution.
Posted by: Hrothgar at May 25, 2011 09:14 AM (yrGif)
56
the stories I can tell, let's start with the $200 shoes but can't bring a pencil to class. We prvide them because the children are from a poor underserved community.
Oh yeah.. One kid gets a 'hardship lunch' because if he goes on public assistance for school lunches, it puts his mom over the limit.. So the kid gets a small cup of veggies and a serving of fruit and a glass of water..
Can't even bother to make a lunch for her flesh and blood offspring,.. and her child suffers for it.
Oh yeah.. One kid gets a 'hardship lunch' because if he goes on public assistance for school lunches, it puts his mom over the limit.. So the kid gets a small cup of veggies and a serving of fruit and a glass of water..
Can't even bother to make a lunch for her flesh and blood offspring,.. and her child suffers for it.
Posted by: Dave C at May 25, 2011 09:15 AM (YPLGQ)
57
Nooo, it's not the money, it's the idea that I'm somehow not qualified to teach unless I go to teacher school. I find that ridiculous.
It's a guild system. You can't get in unless you pay your dues.
Here in PA I would have to get a teaching certificate and probably a masters degree.
It's a guild system. You can't get in unless you pay your dues.
Here in PA I would have to get a teaching certificate and probably a masters degree.
Posted by: Ben at May 25, 2011 09:16 AM (wuv1c)
58
Tom @ 25: Ryan is a career politician, no private sector leadership experience, we tried one of those. \\
WRONG.
He worked in his family's construction firm.
Get your facts straight.
And, in line with what FUBAR said at #30,
quit being an Eeyore.
WRONG.
He worked in his family's construction firm.
Get your facts straight.
And, in line with what FUBAR said at #30,
quit being an Eeyore.
Posted by: Better dead than burqa'ed at May 25, 2011 09:17 AM (2AfqM)
59
The one problem is that although he alleges with his plan that the patient is in control, there is STILL an insurance intermediary between the patient and the provider, which as he so well describes, drives up costs.
The radical change is to provide two tiers of financial resources that are patient managed: one for acute/chronic disease and preventive care with a annual cap (and a formula for rollover of unused dollars), and one for catastrophic problems. If the patient has to manage the funds rather than a an insurance prior authorization, the money at least has a chance to be spent well. If the patient wants to hire someone to help make those decisions independent of the insurance and medical providers, then that's OK too. If they screw up, its THEIR decision, not someone else, and no one bails them out.
The radical change is to provide two tiers of financial resources that are patient managed: one for acute/chronic disease and preventive care with a annual cap (and a formula for rollover of unused dollars), and one for catastrophic problems. If the patient has to manage the funds rather than a an insurance prior authorization, the money at least has a chance to be spent well. If the patient wants to hire someone to help make those decisions independent of the insurance and medical providers, then that's OK too. If they screw up, its THEIR decision, not someone else, and no one bails them out.
Posted by: epador at May 25, 2011 09:17 AM (yRR0s)
60
It's a guild system. You can't get in unless you pay your dues.
Here in PA I would have to get a teaching certificate and probably a masters degree.
Posted by: Ben at May 25, 2011 09:16 AM (wuv1c)
Yeah. It's all about the kids except when it's all about the teachers. Laff.
Here in PA I would have to get a teaching certificate and probably a masters degree.
Posted by: Ben at May 25, 2011 09:16 AM (wuv1c)
Yeah. It's all about the kids except when it's all about the teachers. Laff.
Posted by: FUBAR at May 25, 2011 09:18 AM (1fanL)
61
Also Tom, blow it out your ass. If Paul Ryan isn't good enough for you to be our candidate, who the f is?
Posted by: Ben at May 25, 2011 09:18 AM (wuv1c)
62
I'm of the opinion that if a kid is ruining class for all the other students then he should be expelled. Let him get an early start on digging ditches as that will probably be his career anyway.
Posted by: Ben at May 25, 2011 09:13 AM (wuv1c)
My cousin's wife is a teacher (a good kind, Very conservative) and she wants this too..
Even some of the stories that filter back to me through my kids, this would go a long way into helping the stability of the classroom where kids can learn..
(Seen 'Waiting for Superman'? outstanding documentary about today's school systems. Doesn't pull any punches but lays out the blame at the teacher's unions doorsteps)
Posted by: Ben at May 25, 2011 09:13 AM (wuv1c)
My cousin's wife is a teacher (a good kind, Very conservative) and she wants this too..
Even some of the stories that filter back to me through my kids, this would go a long way into helping the stability of the classroom where kids can learn..
(Seen 'Waiting for Superman'? outstanding documentary about today's school systems. Doesn't pull any punches but lays out the blame at the teacher's unions doorsteps)
Posted by: Dave C at May 25, 2011 09:19 AM (YPLGQ)
63
While I also blame parents and schools, I think teachers should be given much more authority. As it stands a teacher can't really do anything to punish a kid or get troublemakers dismissed from their class.
My father-in-law is a retired high school teacher. He once told me that his classes broke down into three categories. The first was kids who actually wanted to be there and were very interested. The second was kids who were less interested but understood that this was something they needed to do and were at least responsible. The third group was kids who didn't want to be there at all and just caused trouble. This group usually comprised about three or four kids in every class. He spent a disproportionate period of his class time dealing with the three or four malcontents in each class, and if he would have had the authority to get rid of them he could have done so much more for the other 18-20 kids in the room.
My father-in-law is a retired high school teacher. He once told me that his classes broke down into three categories. The first was kids who actually wanted to be there and were very interested. The second was kids who were less interested but understood that this was something they needed to do and were at least responsible. The third group was kids who didn't want to be there at all and just caused trouble. This group usually comprised about three or four kids in every class. He spent a disproportionate period of his class time dealing with the three or four malcontents in each class, and if he would have had the authority to get rid of them he could have done so much more for the other 18-20 kids in the room.
Posted by: Ghost of Lee Atwater at May 25, 2011 09:20 AM (JxMoP)
64
Also, I'd like to congratulate the Republican party, these videos are great, i'm glad to see they're finally embracing technology.
Posted by: Ben at May 25, 2011 09:20 AM (wuv1c)
65
The one problem is that although he alleges with his
plan that the patient is in control, there is STILL an insurance
intermediary between the patient and the provider, which as he so well
describes, drives up costs.
The radical change is to provide two tiers of financial resources that
are patient managed: one for acute/chronic disease and preventive care
with a annual cap (and a formula for rollover of unused dollars), and
one for catastrophic problems. If the patient has to manage the funds
rather than a an insurance prior authorization, the money at least has a
chance to be spent well. If the patient wants to hire someone to help
make those decisions independent of the insurance and medical providers,
then that's OK too. If they screw up, its THEIR decision, not someone
else, and no one bails them out.
Posted by: epador at May 25, 2011 09:17 AM (yRR0s)
This is the "insurance" vs. "service plan" distinction, right?
plan that the patient is in control, there is STILL an insurance
intermediary between the patient and the provider, which as he so well
describes, drives up costs.
The radical change is to provide two tiers of financial resources that
are patient managed: one for acute/chronic disease and preventive care
with a annual cap (and a formula for rollover of unused dollars), and
one for catastrophic problems. If the patient has to manage the funds
rather than a an insurance prior authorization, the money at least has a
chance to be spent well. If the patient wants to hire someone to help
make those decisions independent of the insurance and medical providers,
then that's OK too. If they screw up, its THEIR decision, not someone
else, and no one bails them out.
Posted by: epador at May 25, 2011 09:17 AM (yRR0s)
This is the "insurance" vs. "service plan" distinction, right?
Posted by: FUBAR at May 25, 2011 09:20 AM (1fanL)
66
Vic, I put your Jonah link up there too.
Posted by: rdbrewer at May 25, 2011 09:21 AM (6L9U5)
67
The third group was kids who didn't want to be there at all and just
caused trouble. This group usually comprised about three or four kids in
every class.
Once I volunteered to tutor underprivileged 3rd-ish graders after school. I hate to be sexist, but it was mostly girls who really wanted to learn. And one punk boy who distracted the girls. And did amusing things like roll joints out of notebook paper.
caused trouble. This group usually comprised about three or four kids in
every class.
Once I volunteered to tutor underprivileged 3rd-ish graders after school. I hate to be sexist, but it was mostly girls who really wanted to learn. And one punk boy who distracted the girls. And did amusing things like roll joints out of notebook paper.
Posted by: FUBAR at May 25, 2011 09:23 AM (1fanL)
Posted by: Dave C at May 25, 2011 09:24 AM (YPLGQ)
69
One thing Ryan (and the rest of the GOP) needs to do right now is address the current crop of fearmongering, granny-over-the-cliff, numbskull-friendly Democrat ads. No one is doing that right now, and old people think they're going to be cut off.
So, for example, Ryan could have spent the first 30 seconds saying "no one is going to be cut off." Address that primal fear some people have.
So, for example, Ryan could have spent the first 30 seconds saying "no one is going to be cut off." Address that primal fear some people have.
Posted by: rdbrewer at May 25, 2011 09:24 AM (6L9U5)
70
I'm of the opinion that if a kid is ruining class for all the other students then he should be expelled.
I went through school at the end of when corporal punishment was still being used. The fear of a call down to the Gym/ Industrial arts teacher gave clarity to this young male that was necessary.
That and the reinforcement of a call to my parents that insured I got the message.
I'm of the opinion that if a kid is ruining class for all the other students then he should be expelled.
I went through school at the end of when corporal punishment was still being used. The fear of a call down to the Gym/ Industrial arts teacher gave clarity to this young male that was necessary.
That and the reinforcement of a call to my parents that insured I got the message.
Posted by: Buzzsaw at May 25, 2011 09:25 AM (tf9Ne)
71
Whoops. Thanks, DaveC.
Posted by: rdbrewer at May 25, 2011 09:25 AM (6L9U5)
72
Posted by: Ben at May 25, 2011 09:16 AM (wuv1c)
In NY, in order to get jobs, my friends not only need their ed or secondary ed degree but a third concentration in special education and a third certification in special ed. I have friends who are certified for K - 12 and, apparently that's a lot of testing. And they have a Master's degree in education and they spend an additional year getting a Master's degree in Special Ed. A few of my friends are now going for a Doctorate to be administrators and they haven't been in a classroom as a working teacher yet. they've been in school themselves. I makes jokes to them about getting their guerilla degree so they can approach the system and get in. With a doctorate you make way way more than a hundred grand, with the administration degree you make way way more than two hundred grand. I don't know one teacher retiring with less than a hundred grand plus pension and a fantastic retirement account professionally manged and fat thanks to the professional management the union got them.
In NY, in order to get jobs, my friends not only need their ed or secondary ed degree but a third concentration in special education and a third certification in special ed. I have friends who are certified for K - 12 and, apparently that's a lot of testing. And they have a Master's degree in education and they spend an additional year getting a Master's degree in Special Ed. A few of my friends are now going for a Doctorate to be administrators and they haven't been in a classroom as a working teacher yet. they've been in school themselves. I makes jokes to them about getting their guerilla degree so they can approach the system and get in. With a doctorate you make way way more than a hundred grand, with the administration degree you make way way more than two hundred grand. I don't know one teacher retiring with less than a hundred grand plus pension and a fantastic retirement account professionally manged and fat thanks to the professional management the union got them.
Posted by: curious at May 25, 2011 09:26 AM (k1rwm)
73
I went through school at the end of when corporal punishment was still being used. The fear of a call down to the Gym/ Industrial arts teacher gave clarity to this young male that was necessary. That and the reinforcement of a call to my parents that insured I got the message.
Posted by: Buzzsaw at May 25, 2011 09:25 AM (tf9Ne)
My k-8 principal had a baseball bat shaved flat on one side that he drilled holes in. THAT was some scary shit.
Posted by: Buzzsaw at May 25, 2011 09:25 AM (tf9Ne)
My k-8 principal had a baseball bat shaved flat on one side that he drilled holes in. THAT was some scary shit.
Posted by: FUBAR at May 25, 2011 09:26 AM (1fanL)
74
I don't know one teacher retiring with less than a
hundred grand plus pension and a fantastic retirement account
professionally manged and fat thanks to the professional management the
union got them.
Posted by: curious at May 25, 2011 09:26 AM (k1rwm)
So your friends are part of the problem.
hundred grand plus pension and a fantastic retirement account
professionally manged and fat thanks to the professional management the
union got them.
Posted by: curious at May 25, 2011 09:26 AM (k1rwm)
So your friends are part of the problem.
Posted by: FUBAR at May 25, 2011 09:27 AM (1fanL)
75
That and the reinforcement of a call to my parents that insured I got the message.
Back in the day this would have been worse than the paddling at school. Unfortunately there are a lot of parents today who undermine the authority of the teachers and the principal, and then theparentswonder why Junior gets in trouble so much and shows so little respect at home.
Back in the day this would have been worse than the paddling at school. Unfortunately there are a lot of parents today who undermine the authority of the teachers and the principal, and then theparentswonder why Junior gets in trouble so much and shows so little respect at home.
Posted by: Ghost of Lee Atwater at May 25, 2011 09:30 AM (JxMoP)
76
*SAVE MEDICARE!!1eleventy!!1!!* would be a good campaign platform IMO.
Posted by: jeannie in MT at May 25, 2011 09:31 AM (vtRew)
77
Posted by: FUBAR at May 25, 2011 09:27 AM (1fanL)
These are the parents of my friends. Yes, they so are. And my friends, seeing the cushy jobs and retirements their parents have are getting more education than their parents had so they can be a legacy hire and make oodles of money and retire with a bigger pension than their parents.
These are the parents of my friends. Yes, they so are. And my friends, seeing the cushy jobs and retirements their parents have are getting more education than their parents had so they can be a legacy hire and make oodles of money and retire with a bigger pension than their parents.
Posted by: curious at May 25, 2011 09:31 AM (k1rwm)
78
Top notch production by Ryan explaining his plan. My only complaint is a minor one: his fugly tie.
Posted by: EC at May 25, 2011 09:33 AM (GQ8sn)
79
Very common mistake here -- the Caduceus (twin snakes around a winged rod) is used instead of the proper Rod of Asclepius (single snake around a plain staff) to denote delivery of health care.
The Caduceus is the symbol of Hermes, representing commerce, gambling, and thieves. Those supposing themselves cute & clever have noted that the symbolic misuse is somehow appropriate given the state of medicine today, but, like, come on.
Takes nothing away from Ryan's plan by the way. But the nerdish nitpicking classicists among us need SOMETHING to talk about on Friday nights.
The Caduceus is the symbol of Hermes, representing commerce, gambling, and thieves. Those supposing themselves cute & clever have noted that the symbolic misuse is somehow appropriate given the state of medicine today, but, like, come on.
Takes nothing away from Ryan's plan by the way. But the nerdish nitpicking classicists among us need SOMETHING to talk about on Friday nights.
Posted by: Geordie at May 25, 2011 09:33 AM (kR3xj)
80
So high end retail is finally taking a hit. Ralphie was off, American Eagle was off.
Posted by: curious at May 25, 2011 09:34 AM (k1rwm)
81
Nice catch, Geordie.
Posted by: rdbrewer at May 25, 2011 09:35 AM (6L9U5)
Posted by: jeannie in MT at May 25, 2011 09:35 AM (vtRew)
83
I love Paul Ryan, he's great. But the guy has come up with a plan. He hasn't even accomplished getting any significant part of that plan passed yet. Paul Ryan is right where he's supposed to be and he should stay there. He's good at planning spending and where does spending originate? The House. He should stay in the House and get it done. Do you know the reason the democrats eventually get all there spending through? Their best people on it have been in the House 20-30 years. If we are not going to get Term limits then the GOP shouldn't be pushing every decent House Member to run for higher office and, usually, fail at it.
We don't need Paul Ryan to run for president. We need to make Paul Ryan chair of the Ways and Means committee.
We don't need Paul Ryan to run for president. We need to make Paul Ryan chair of the Ways and Means committee.
Posted by: Rocks at May 25, 2011 09:37 AM (th0op)
84
I understand why the Tired Rhino Sisters are running away from this
plan, but I thought Scott Brown had a brain and some guts? Guess not.
Scotty Brown can kiss my firm and well-formed derriere. If it were anyone but Martha Coakley he ran against, it would be a different story.
McCain's campaign looks like a work of genius compared to hers.
Scotty Brown cares about nothing but Scotty Brown and getting re-elected.
plan, but I thought Scott Brown had a brain and some guts? Guess not.
Scotty Brown can kiss my firm and well-formed derriere. If it were anyone but Martha Coakley he ran against, it would be a different story.
McCain's campaign looks like a work of genius compared to hers.
Scotty Brown cares about nothing but Scotty Brown and getting re-elected.
Posted by: beedubya at May 25, 2011 09:42 AM (AnTyA)
85
He spent a disproportionate period of his class time dealing with the
three or four malcontents in each class, and if he would have had the
authority to get rid of them he could have done so much more for the
other 18-20 kids in the room.
When I was in school back in the 50s we had hose problem kids too (especially in HS). But usually they were gone before the end of the first semester. We still had Reform school then if they were younger than 17. If they were 17 or older they simply got kicked out.
But we were all racist and cruel and shit then.
three or four malcontents in each class, and if he would have had the
authority to get rid of them he could have done so much more for the
other 18-20 kids in the room.
When I was in school back in the 50s we had hose problem kids too (especially in HS). But usually they were gone before the end of the first semester. We still had Reform school then if they were younger than 17. If they were 17 or older they simply got kicked out.
But we were all racist and cruel and shit then.
Posted by: Vic at May 25, 2011 09:43 AM (M9Ie6)
86
Exactly buzzsaw - I still remember the day the music teacher (a nice old lady) left the room in despair, we thought it was great, until she came back with the wood and metal shop instructors.
Posted by: Jean at May 25, 2011 09:45 AM (WkuV6)
87
61
Also Tom, blow it out your ass. If Paul Ryan isn't good enough for you to be our candidate, who the f is?Posted by: Ben at May 25, 2011 09:18 AM (wuv1c)
Wow, upset the Ryan fanboi crowd huh?
And you claim the Palinistas are off the rails.
And his "private sector experience" was a summer job.
Also Tom, blow it out your ass. If Paul Ryan isn't good enough for you to be our candidate, who the f is?Posted by: Ben at May 25, 2011 09:18 AM (wuv1c)
Wow, upset the Ryan fanboi crowd huh?
And you claim the Palinistas are off the rails.
And his "private sector experience" was a summer job.
Posted by: Tom at May 25, 2011 09:45 AM (nQR0p)
88
No, he should not run. And forget his plan--unitl a R president is elected
If the Rs run on anything except the miserable failures of what Obama has done, they'll lose. That POS will be re-elected.
All Prez re-elections are mostly a referendum on the previous term and that is what this 2012 should be about. Run on Obama-ism and any decent R running a decent campaign will win.
Run on changing Medicare and any R will lose. It's that brutally simple.
After an R is elected Prez, with an R Congress, then implement Ryan's plan. But don't try to educate people in an election cycle. It will not work
If the Rs run on anything except the miserable failures of what Obama has done, they'll lose. That POS will be re-elected.
All Prez re-elections are mostly a referendum on the previous term and that is what this 2012 should be about. Run on Obama-ism and any decent R running a decent campaign will win.
Run on changing Medicare and any R will lose. It's that brutally simple.
After an R is elected Prez, with an R Congress, then implement Ryan's plan. But don't try to educate people in an election cycle. It will not work
Posted by: SantaRosaStan, a Leading Indicator at May 25, 2011 09:46 AM (UqKQV)
89
I watched it again. Part of the problem is that "wealthy seniors will get less" phrase cause as it is now, they get everything paid for and they expect that since everywhere else in their lives, their wealth has worked against them. So, they are going to push back on this plan wanting everything covered, just like the poor, just like it has always been. It's their way or protecting their estates. I'm not saying it is right, I'm saying this is how they think. They don't realize the plan can't stay as it is or it will die. All they see is that their benefit, their piece of the pie, will shrink. they believe BO when he says there will be no gatekeepers, he's very convincing. He says that then quietly puts them in place and the seniors don't know they are there, until they need the service and then it's too late. It's a little underhanded but they almost want to be lied to.
I've been making it a point to talk to senior and suggest they look at ryan's plan before they wholesale condemn it. I've even said "do you want a plan that takes your stuff away quietly and you get shocked by it or do you want a plan that allows you some dignity and control. Lately, a lot of doctors are now refusing any medicare patients. So that is helping my argument.
I've been making it a point to talk to senior and suggest they look at ryan's plan before they wholesale condemn it. I've even said "do you want a plan that takes your stuff away quietly and you get shocked by it or do you want a plan that allows you some dignity and control. Lately, a lot of doctors are now refusing any medicare patients. So that is helping my argument.
Posted by: curious at May 25, 2011 09:46 AM (k1rwm)
90
We don't need Paul Ryan to run for president. We need to make Paul Ryan chair of the Ways and Means committee.
Posted by: Rocks at May 25, 2011 09:37 AM (th0op)
We need him to chair the Budget, Ways and Means, and Appropriations committee -- Czar of the Public Purse!
Posted by: Rocks at May 25, 2011 09:37 AM (th0op)
We need him to chair the Budget, Ways and Means, and Appropriations committee -- Czar of the Public Purse!
Posted by: Jean at May 25, 2011 09:46 AM (WkuV6)
91
That really was a chickenshit move on Scott Brown's part.
Posted by: rdbrewer at May 25, 2011 09:48 AM (6L9U5)
92
Jeff Sessions is on Fox just now blasting the shit out of Harry Reid.
Posted by: Vic at May 25, 2011 09:50 AM (M9Ie6)
93
That really was a chickenshit move on Scott Brown's part.
Snowe is about to do the same thing.
Then Muffdiveski and Collins will be next
Snowe is about to do the same thing.
Then Muffdiveski and Collins will be next
Posted by: Ben at May 25, 2011 09:52 AM (wuv1c)
94
After mentioning the Medicare proposed reform would not affect anyone 55 and older, someone just told me I had a brain the size of a pea by saying that it would immediate "eliminate the donut hole filler." WTF?
Posted by: Lady in Black at May 25, 2011 09:54 AM (XK4nA)
95
The only decent thing to do now is for him to run and take the fire and heat off of the other Republican running in Congressional elections. Every debate, every ad will be nothing but about "the Ryan plan."
Posted by: Greg at May 25, 2011 09:55 AM (rj3b9)
96
OT.. just got a call that I might be working full time next school year instead of the day to day subbing I've been doing..
(working in the cafeteria)
over 5 hours each day!
(the wife works full time but I'll take what I can get and it still leaves me home with my kids when they are out of school)
had to share the news
(working in the cafeteria)
over 5 hours each day!
(the wife works full time but I'll take what I can get and it still leaves me home with my kids when they are out of school)
had to share the news
Posted by: Dave C at May 25, 2011 09:56 AM (YPLGQ)
97
Noway ...I am sticking with Presadent Obama's plan , not this Ryan Whatever charactor from Ohio. Get real people and get over Bush and his retards !!!!!!!!!!!!
Posted by: Mary Clogginstien from Brattleboro, VT at May 25, 2011 09:56 AM (48wze)
98
Every major paper in the country that I looked at this morning had the Democrat spin on "the Ryan plan" and the mediscare lies,
Posted by: Vic at May 25, 2011 09:57 AM (M9Ie6)
99
Ryan/West 2012
Posted by: Republican leadership at May 25, 2011 09:57 AM (LH6ir)
100
Wow, upset the Ryan fanboi crowd huh?And you claim the Palinistas are off the rails. And his "private sector experience" was a summer job.
And Palin's is what? Being picked as VP and then "writing" a bunch of books?
I'm just sick of every possilbe R candidate being called not conservative enough.
I have the unfortunate problem of having to live in the real world where everything isn't perfect or ideal. We're not going to get a presidential candidate who shits cotton candy and pisses FA Hayek. We're going to get one who has voted for issues we don't like, we're going to get a candidate who doesn't agree with everyone here 100% of the time, we're going to have the accept that and ease up on the constant bitching about this candidate not being conservative enough.
It's not like we're nominating John McCain again, and as much as the current crop of candidates isn't fantastic, with the exception of Romney, they are all to the right of John McCain. so it's an upgrade in my mind.
And Palin's is what? Being picked as VP and then "writing" a bunch of books?
I'm just sick of every possilbe R candidate being called not conservative enough.
I have the unfortunate problem of having to live in the real world where everything isn't perfect or ideal. We're not going to get a presidential candidate who shits cotton candy and pisses FA Hayek. We're going to get one who has voted for issues we don't like, we're going to get a candidate who doesn't agree with everyone here 100% of the time, we're going to have the accept that and ease up on the constant bitching about this candidate not being conservative enough.
It's not like we're nominating John McCain again, and as much as the current crop of candidates isn't fantastic, with the exception of Romney, they are all to the right of John McCain. so it's an upgrade in my mind.
Posted by: Ben at May 25, 2011 09:57 AM (wuv1c)
101
Damned sock
Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo (NJConservative) at May 25, 2011 09:57 AM (LH6ir)
102
Congrats Dave C.
Posted by: Ben at May 25, 2011 09:58 AM (wuv1c)
103
Posted by: No Whining (formerly ya2daup) at May 25, 2011 09:51 AM (/h8IG)
Teaching Science is another whole ball park. You need certification in each science to teach in HS. So there are not a lot of science teachers and if you do teach one you are a big coupe if the school gets you and manages to keep you. sometimes a random engineer will wander into a high school and be able to teach for a year pending their certification in a particular science. I had a lot of engineers who taught for exactly one year and then left cause they coudln't take the politics and the bureaucracy. My AP physics teacher was one of the best teachers I ever had. At the end of the year, with a class with 4's and 5's on the physics AP, he ran screaming from the classroom back to "any engineering job".
When one of my friends contacted him for a recommendation, my friend found out that they were upset that his kids got all 4's and 5's and they went against him. I mean, that right there, is screwed up.
Teaching Science is another whole ball park. You need certification in each science to teach in HS. So there are not a lot of science teachers and if you do teach one you are a big coupe if the school gets you and manages to keep you. sometimes a random engineer will wander into a high school and be able to teach for a year pending their certification in a particular science. I had a lot of engineers who taught for exactly one year and then left cause they coudln't take the politics and the bureaucracy. My AP physics teacher was one of the best teachers I ever had. At the end of the year, with a class with 4's and 5's on the physics AP, he ran screaming from the classroom back to "any engineering job".
When one of my friends contacted him for a recommendation, my friend found out that they were upset that his kids got all 4's and 5's and they went against him. I mean, that right there, is screwed up.
Posted by: curious at May 25, 2011 09:58 AM (k1rwm)
104
I'm just sick of every possilbe R candidate being called not conservative enough.
LOL, the "On the issues" site has Ryan to the right (more conservative) than Michell Bachmann.
LOL, the "On the issues" site has Ryan to the right (more conservative) than Michell Bachmann.
Posted by: Vic at May 25, 2011 10:01 AM (M9Ie6)
105
Posted by: Vic at May 25, 2011 09:57 AM (M9Ie6)
You read the news the same way I do: Assume that there is a left-wing spin, then try to discover the facts underneath the propaganda.
There was an interesting post at Chicago Boyz about the inability of the MSM to recognize that guns are, in most cases, a net positive for our society. The reflex "Guns are Bad!" is just too strong in 99% of reporters.
You read the news the same way I do: Assume that there is a left-wing spin, then try to discover the facts underneath the propaganda.
There was an interesting post at Chicago Boyz about the inability of the MSM to recognize that guns are, in most cases, a net positive for our society. The reflex "Guns are Bad!" is just too strong in 99% of reporters.
Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo (NJConservative) at May 25, 2011 10:02 AM (LH6ir)
106
Noway ...I am sticking with Presadent Obama's plan , not this Ryan Whatever charactor from Ohio. Get real people and get over Bush and his retards !!!!!!!!!!!!
Posted by: Mary Clogginstien from Brattleboro, VT at May 25, 2011 09:56 AM (48wze)
Thank you Mary for representing the voice of reasonon the left
Posted by: Mary Clogginstien from Brattleboro, VT at May 25, 2011 09:56 AM (48wze)
Thank you Mary for representing the voice of reasonon the left
Posted by: TheQuietMan at May 25, 2011 10:02 AM (1Jaio)
107
thaddeus mccotter is a good candidate. He really knows his stuff, doesn't take himself too seriously and is a good communicator. I'm sure the establishment GOP will attempt to bury him before he can even announce.
Posted by: curious at May 25, 2011 10:03 AM (k1rwm)
108
My friends, you have nothing to fear from an Obama Presidency.
Posted by: John McCain, losing with dignity at May 25, 2011 10:04 AM (YFds9)
109
I would like to see Ryan get in the race also. The better our candidates the better our chances to win the general. Whether Ryan can win the nomination or not it will give him a soapbox to explain his plan.
By the way who was President in 1986 when the 'you have to treat everyone' law was past? I'll say again, if the internet was in full mode at the time, one of our greatest Presidents would have been rendered a RINO.
By the way who was President in 1986 when the 'you have to treat everyone' law was past? I'll say again, if the internet was in full mode at the time, one of our greatest Presidents would have been rendered a RINO.
Posted by: polynikes - Romney supporter at May 25, 2011 10:04 AM (T8iAI)
110
"I have the unfortunate problem of having to live in the real world where everything isn't perfect or ideal."
Posted by: Ben at May 25, 2011 09:57 AM (wuv1c)
Burn the heretic!
Posted by: Ben at May 25, 2011 09:57 AM (wuv1c)
Burn the heretic!
Posted by: Purity police at May 25, 2011 10:04 AM (LH6ir)
111
I put on beck and truthfully, instead of playing the music, or running regular commercials, beck keeps running his comedy clips of past bits. The Meghan Mccain one is getting really really old. I kept wondering why he repeats that one so much since it seems she is by and large inconsequential. Then I realized she has criticized him and sarah palin so he is doing his part to make sure she is viewed as an idiot. It's amazing sometimes how beck adapts the tactics of the left. He's doing to meghan mccain exactly what he claims he didn't like the left doing to sarah palin, only he's bankrolling sarah palin, so then, it's different.
Posted by: curious at May 25, 2011 10:06 AM (k1rwm)
112
AARP doesn't give a rat's ass for anyone other than themselves.
Word. AARP is a shady insurance company masquerading as an advocacy group.
Word. AARP is a shady insurance company masquerading as an advocacy group.
Posted by: toby928™ at May 25, 2011 10:06 AM (GTbGH)
113
Posted by: John McCain, losing with dignity at May 25, 2011 10:04 AM (YFds9)
I want pictures of Obama screwing a goat while being paid off by the Saudis.
On second thought; make that pictures of Obama being screwed by a goat...
I want pictures of Obama screwing a goat while being paid off by the Saudis.
On second thought; make that pictures of Obama being screwed by a goat...
Posted by: HArd-core right winger, winning from the gutter at May 25, 2011 10:07 AM (LH6ir)
114
I'm getting to the point where the only way you can kill the Beast is from the outside.
Posted by: The Robot Devil at May 25, 2011 10:07 AM (136wp)
115
Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo (NJConservative) at May 25, 2011 10:02 AM (LH6ir)
I wouldn't mind the big city papers and the MFM being in the back pocket of the Democrat Party if there were a like number of papers in the back pocket of the Republican Party. That is the way it used to be in the early days of the Republic. But it seems that all that changed in the 30s. probably had something to do with FDR, the FCC, and the "fairness doctrine".
I wouldn't mind the big city papers and the MFM being in the back pocket of the Democrat Party if there were a like number of papers in the back pocket of the Republican Party. That is the way it used to be in the early days of the Republic. But it seems that all that changed in the 30s. probably had something to do with FDR, the FCC, and the "fairness doctrine".
Posted by: Vic at May 25, 2011 10:08 AM (M9Ie6)
116
had to share the news
Posted by: Dave C
Hey, man, that's good that you'll have a steadier cash flow.
And your kids are so lucky to have you at home for them when they get home from school. My mom was home while I was in school and it made all the difference in the world.
Posted by: Dave C
Hey, man, that's good that you'll have a steadier cash flow.
And your kids are so lucky to have you at home for them when they get home from school. My mom was home while I was in school and it made all the difference in the world.
Posted by: Y-not at May 25, 2011 10:11 AM (pW2o8)
117
Posted by: Vic at May 25, 2011 10:08 AM (M9Ie6)
I think that the 1960s were the death knell for journalism in this country. The J schools were completely overrun by academic progressives, and they now control the narrative. When 95% of journalists donate to the Dems -- there is a big problem. I wonder why that can't be used as a club to beat the media with?
Oh, I forgot. The last Republican with balls was Ronald Reagan.
I think that the 1960s were the death knell for journalism in this country. The J schools were completely overrun by academic progressives, and they now control the narrative. When 95% of journalists donate to the Dems -- there is a big problem. I wonder why that can't be used as a club to beat the media with?
Oh, I forgot. The last Republican with balls was Ronald Reagan.
Posted by: HArd-core right winger, winning from the gutter at May 25, 2011 10:11 AM (LH6ir)
118
When 95% of journalists donate to the Dems -- there is a big problem. I wonder why that can't be used as a club to beat the media with?
Who will report on those facts? The 95% of journallists who donate to the democrats?
It's like the government. What recourse do you have against the entity that writes and enforces the rules.
Who will report on those facts? The 95% of journallists who donate to the democrats?
It's like the government. What recourse do you have against the entity that writes and enforces the rules.
Posted by: Ben at May 25, 2011 10:12 AM (wuv1c)
119
I have started doing the post-it note thing at the gas station:
Jan 20, 2009: Unleaded $1.85/ gal
Jan 20, 2009: Unleaded $1.85/ gal
Posted by: toby928™ at May 25, 2011 10:12 AM (GTbGH)
120
Ryan Lie: "A medicare patient goes to the doctor and receives health care services. The doctor sends the bill for these services to Medicare. And medicare reimburses the doctor, with your tax dollars and borrowed money, no questions asked."
That's just a bald-faced lie. Why? Totally undercuts the message.
If Ryan is aware of some Medicare fraud, it's his duty to report it and he can do so very easily right on this government website.
No government program is without its checks and balances and many doctors are caught in Medicare fraud every year and prosecuted for it by the Justice Department. In no way, shape or form are reimbursements made to doctors with "no questions asked."
Why does Paul Ryan feel compelled to mislead Americans in this way? It undercuts the Republican message and forces seniors to consider whether they want to vote for Republicans when they're so clearly lying to them about this vital issue affecting their pocketbooks. Many senior voters are on fixed incomes, and to lie to these people about Medicare is dumb politics.
That's just a bald-faced lie. Why? Totally undercuts the message.
If Ryan is aware of some Medicare fraud, it's his duty to report it and he can do so very easily right on this government website.
No government program is without its checks and balances and many doctors are caught in Medicare fraud every year and prosecuted for it by the Justice Department. In no way, shape or form are reimbursements made to doctors with "no questions asked."
Why does Paul Ryan feel compelled to mislead Americans in this way? It undercuts the Republican message and forces seniors to consider whether they want to vote for Republicans when they're so clearly lying to them about this vital issue affecting their pocketbooks. Many senior voters are on fixed incomes, and to lie to these people about Medicare is dumb politics.
Posted by: someguy at May 25, 2011 10:13 AM (iIQ0a)
121
120
Posted by: Vic at May 25, 2011 10:08 AM (M9Ie6)
I
think that the 1960s were the death knell for journalism in this
country. The J schools were completely overrun by academic progressives,
and they now control the narrative. When 95% of journalists donate to
the Dems -- there is a big problem. I wonder why that can't be used as a
club to beat the media with?
Oh, I forgot. The last Republican with balls was Ronald Reagan.
Posted by: HArd-core right winger, winning from the gutter at May 25, 2011 10:11 AM (LH6ir)
I'd unless the Warcocktm but I'm too busy screwing the missus
Posted by: Vic at May 25, 2011 10:08 AM (M9Ie6)
I
think that the 1960s were the death knell for journalism in this
country. The J schools were completely overrun by academic progressives,
and they now control the narrative. When 95% of journalists donate to
the Dems -- there is a big problem. I wonder why that can't be used as a
club to beat the media with?
Oh, I forgot. The last Republican with balls was Ronald Reagan.
Posted by: HArd-core right winger, winning from the gutter at May 25, 2011 10:11 AM (LH6ir)
I'd unless the Warcocktm but I'm too busy screwing the missus
Posted by: Dick Cheney at May 25, 2011 10:13 AM (136wp)
122
I'm also tired of the "Scott Brown is 50 percent better than Kennedy" meme. I give him credit for forcing the Dems to pass the worse version of Obamacare...but really, how has he helped since then? It seems that, like the Maine sisters, when crucial votes come around he's voting with the Dems. I don't knowf that's worth having him vote with his party on naming buildings and bridges.
Posted by: Damn Sockpuppet at May 25, 2011 10:13 AM (YmPwQ)
123
What about as the VP pick for the nominee? He could lead from behind as it were and not have to raise a ton of cash, have his experience called into question (as much) and it's just not as grueling as being the #1 as far as campaigning.
Posted by: Roadking at May 25, 2011 10:14 AM (8EgKt)
124
102
And Palin's is what? Being picked as VP and then "writing" a bunch of books?
I'm just sick of every possilbe R candidate being called not conservative enough.
I have the unfortunate problem of having to live in the real world
where everything isn't perfect or ideal. We're not going to get a
presidential candidate who shits cotton candy and pisses FA Hayek. We're
going to get one who has voted for issues we don't like, we're going to
get a candidate who doesn't agree with everyone here 100% of the time,
we're going to have the accept that and ease up on the constant bitching
about this candidate not being conservative enough.
It's not like we're nominating John McCain again, and as much as the
current crop of candidates isn't fantastic, with the exception of
Romney, they are all to the right of John McCain. so it's an upgrade in
my mind.
Posted by: Ben at May 25, 2011 09:57 AM (wuv1c)
Palin not being perfect makes her a no-go, but Ryan not being perfect is fine with you.Hypocrite much?
And Palin's is what? Being picked as VP and then "writing" a bunch of books?
I'm just sick of every possilbe R candidate being called not conservative enough.
I have the unfortunate problem of having to live in the real world
where everything isn't perfect or ideal. We're not going to get a
presidential candidate who shits cotton candy and pisses FA Hayek. We're
going to get one who has voted for issues we don't like, we're going to
get a candidate who doesn't agree with everyone here 100% of the time,
we're going to have the accept that and ease up on the constant bitching
about this candidate not being conservative enough.
It's not like we're nominating John McCain again, and as much as the
current crop of candidates isn't fantastic, with the exception of
Romney, they are all to the right of John McCain. so it's an upgrade in
my mind.
Posted by: Ben at May 25, 2011 09:57 AM (wuv1c)
Palin not being perfect makes her a no-go, but Ryan not being perfect is fine with you.Hypocrite much?
Posted by: Tom at May 25, 2011 10:14 AM (nQR0p)
125
So for Ryan to be successful electorally the country must agree to his plan's assumptions. He may be right and all, but since when can you get a majority of Americans to agree on anything,much less a detailed plan? People vote trust, not the details of corporate management. I think we have the electorate confused with a Board of Directors. Shoosh, what does the profits andearning ratio say we should do? I mean this is tuetonic.
Posted by: Sub-tard at May 25, 2011 10:16 AM (Q5+Og)
126
OMG, Mark Haines died.
Posted by: curious at May 25, 2011 10:17 AM (k1rwm)
127
He needs to run for President. Bottom Line.
Posted by: Zakn at May 25, 2011 10:18 AM (zyaZ1)
128
#123 someguy. The percentage of Medicare fraud discovered is minimal and it's precisely because most of the billing is processed with no questions asked.
Posted by: polynikes - Romney supporter at May 25, 2011 10:20 AM (T8iAI)
129
My friends, you have nothing to fear from an Obama Presidency.
Posted by: John McCain, losing with dignity at May 25, 2011 10:04 AM (YFds9)
LOSING!!
Posted by: John McCain, losing with dignity at May 25, 2011 10:04 AM (YFds9)
LOSING!!
Posted by: Charlie Sheen at May 25, 2011 10:20 AM (OeeQo)
130
Palin not being perfect makes her a no-go, but Ryan not being perfect is fine with you.
Hypocrite much?
Yeah I didn't say that Palin was a no go. I was simply retorting your "Paul Ryan doesn't have business experience" comment by pointing out that Palin isn't exactly Bill Gates herself.
.
Ryan has flaws, i will admit that.
It seems theCult of Sarah is unable to do the same about their candidate.
The sad thing is I kinda like Palin, but I am liking her less and less because of her supporters, which I try to keep in mind is no fault of her own.
Unlike some here, I'm willing to admit my candidate has flaws and weaknesses, but I think their strengths outweigh those weaknesses.
Please name me anyone in the Republican party who has put forth a detailed plan on fixing(or at least stopping the hemoraging) of medicare and social security.
Hypocrite much?
Yeah I didn't say that Palin was a no go. I was simply retorting your "Paul Ryan doesn't have business experience" comment by pointing out that Palin isn't exactly Bill Gates herself.
.
Ryan has flaws, i will admit that.
It seems theCult of Sarah is unable to do the same about their candidate.
The sad thing is I kinda like Palin, but I am liking her less and less because of her supporters, which I try to keep in mind is no fault of her own.
Unlike some here, I'm willing to admit my candidate has flaws and weaknesses, but I think their strengths outweigh those weaknesses.
Please name me anyone in the Republican party who has put forth a detailed plan on fixing(or at least stopping the hemoraging) of medicare and social security.
Posted by: Ben at May 25, 2011 10:20 AM (wuv1c)
131
What Ryan's plan really does is CEMENT the Democrat Party idea that the government should provide health care for older Americans. Ryan's plan HELPS Democrats.
Is that conservative? I thought Republicans wanted to get out of the health care providing business? Why not just give Americans a check each year and let them decide how they'll pay for their health care? If it cuts costs to put the patient and the doctor in the same room to negotiate a payment for services, then why are Republicans not advocating the complete eliminiation of Medicare?
Under Ryan's plan, payments to doctors ONLY OCCUR if people CONSUME SERVICES. That's going to guarantee a rise in costs.
Ryan should be proposing to pay people NOT TO CONSUME health care services by returning our 1.85% payroll tax payment to us if we don't consume any health care services each year. That's how you cut health care costs. Pay people NOT TO GO and let's get the government OUT of the doctor-patient relationship.
Is that conservative? I thought Republicans wanted to get out of the health care providing business? Why not just give Americans a check each year and let them decide how they'll pay for their health care? If it cuts costs to put the patient and the doctor in the same room to negotiate a payment for services, then why are Republicans not advocating the complete eliminiation of Medicare?
Under Ryan's plan, payments to doctors ONLY OCCUR if people CONSUME SERVICES. That's going to guarantee a rise in costs.
Ryan should be proposing to pay people NOT TO CONSUME health care services by returning our 1.85% payroll tax payment to us if we don't consume any health care services each year. That's how you cut health care costs. Pay people NOT TO GO and let's get the government OUT of the doctor-patient relationship.
Posted by: someguy at May 25, 2011 10:22 AM (iIQ0a)
132
Posted by: polynikes - Romney supporter at May 25, 2011 10:20 AM (T8iAI)
You are 100% correct here. The fraud is huge, and the oversight is pathetic. Of course the numbers are going to show minimal fraud. This is an excellent example of the tyranny of statistics.
You are 100% correct here. The fraud is huge, and the oversight is pathetic. Of course the numbers are going to show minimal fraud. This is an excellent example of the tyranny of statistics.
Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo (NJConservative) at May 25, 2011 10:25 AM (LH6ir)
133
Meh. Two problems:
1) If his solution is good for people 54 and younger, why isn't it also good for people 55 and older?
2) The average FICA taxes for Medicare (2.5%) for someone making 50k a year (national median income) over their life until 65 amounts to $58,750. If we're giving that person 15K a year for premium support and they live an average life span, we end up spending $180,000. Even throwing in NPV and other squibbles, you're on a losing streak here. And as this is all, in reality, general fund money we're talking here, and there is no end in sight to our present deficits let alone debt, there is no way for the govt. to use the payments on anything other than a pay-go basis.
Monty says it right, every sinlge goddamned day. DOOM.
1) If his solution is good for people 54 and younger, why isn't it also good for people 55 and older?
2) The average FICA taxes for Medicare (2.5%) for someone making 50k a year (national median income) over their life until 65 amounts to $58,750. If we're giving that person 15K a year for premium support and they live an average life span, we end up spending $180,000. Even throwing in NPV and other squibbles, you're on a losing streak here. And as this is all, in reality, general fund money we're talking here, and there is no end in sight to our present deficits let alone debt, there is no way for the govt. to use the payments on anything other than a pay-go basis.
Monty says it right, every sinlge goddamned day. DOOM.
Posted by: Honey Badger at May 25, 2011 10:25 AM (H0dXA)
134
We need more government Bureaurocrats. They know what's best. Just don't you morons call them death panels. waaaaa.
Posted by: Left wing Democrat Chorus at May 25, 2011 10:27 AM (0fzsA)
135
"Under Ryan's plan, payments to doctors ONLY OCCUR if people CONSUME SERVICES. That's going to guarantee a rise in costs."
Posted by: someguy at May 25, 2011 10:22 AM (iIQ0a)
That's true of all plans; public or private. But it doesn't "guarantee" a rise in costs. That makes no sense.
The ultimate goal is to allow the free market to bear on health care. It does already in elective medicine, and costs are decreasing. Amazing what the invisible hand can do!
Posted by: someguy at May 25, 2011 10:22 AM (iIQ0a)
That's true of all plans; public or private. But it doesn't "guarantee" a rise in costs. That makes no sense.
The ultimate goal is to allow the free market to bear on health care. It does already in elective medicine, and costs are decreasing. Amazing what the invisible hand can do!
Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo (NJConservative) at May 25, 2011 10:28 AM (LH6ir)
136
"The percentage of Medicare fraud discovered is minimal and it's precisely because most of the billing is processed with no questions asked."
Then why didn't Paul Ryan say that? Why does he feel the need to mislead senior voters on Medicare?
The previous commenter was right: TRUST is the issue that compels senior voters and Paul Ryan is lying to them about the fundamental way that Medicare works.That does notengender trust?
Paul Ryan's plan to gut Medicare will cause seniors to vote for Democrats. You don't talk about these issues UNTIL you control the Congress and the White House... not BEFORE. Seniors will never vote for this shit, and they vote in majorities powerful enough to move elections.
Gingrich is also making the same mistake: Saying he'll cut unemployment benefits to 4 weeks. What a fucking buffoon. Here you have 13.5 million people pissed off at Obama for being unable to find work ... and Gingrich totally reverses those votes by telling those very same people he's going to fuck them right up the ass.
Republicans are fucking retards. You don't earn votes by telling people you're going to fuck them over.
Then why didn't Paul Ryan say that? Why does he feel the need to mislead senior voters on Medicare?
The previous commenter was right: TRUST is the issue that compels senior voters and Paul Ryan is lying to them about the fundamental way that Medicare works.That does notengender trust?
Paul Ryan's plan to gut Medicare will cause seniors to vote for Democrats. You don't talk about these issues UNTIL you control the Congress and the White House... not BEFORE. Seniors will never vote for this shit, and they vote in majorities powerful enough to move elections.
Gingrich is also making the same mistake: Saying he'll cut unemployment benefits to 4 weeks. What a fucking buffoon. Here you have 13.5 million people pissed off at Obama for being unable to find work ... and Gingrich totally reverses those votes by telling those very same people he's going to fuck them right up the ass.
Republicans are fucking retards. You don't earn votes by telling people you're going to fuck them over.
Posted by: someguy at May 25, 2011 10:28 AM (iIQ0a)
137
83
...We don't need Paul Ryan to run for president. We need to
make Paul Ryan chair of the Ways and Means committee.
Word is that, when Dave Camp's term is finished in 2014, Ryan wants to move from WM member to chairman.
...We don't need Paul Ryan to run for president. We need to
make Paul Ryan chair of the Ways and Means committee.
Word is that, when Dave Camp's term is finished in 2014, Ryan wants to move from WM member to chairman.
Posted by: Miss'80sBaby at May 25, 2011 10:29 AM (CLYmB)
138
Ryan should be proposing to pay people NOT TO CONSUME health care services by returning our 1.85% payroll tax payment to us if we don't consume any health care services each year. That's how you cut health care costs. Pay people NOT TO GO and let's get the government OUT of the doctor-patient relationship.
Bingo. Human's are an economic animal. Give them free shit and they all take it. Give them an opportunity to profit personally and they change their behavior.
Personally think a Cat Care Policy with a $5k deductible should be the minimum encouraged. Provide a MED IRA up to $5k deduction and let the participant keep monies set aside in it over tax years instead of looting it annually as we do now. Do this and viola, most health purchases will be in cash thus cutting out the entire 3rd Party Payer we have now. Once we move the 90% of America to a cash and carry system backed by Cat Care Insurance we can deal with the 10% some other way. I was thinking those gators in the moats need regular feeding and all. Problem solved.
Bingo. Human's are an economic animal. Give them free shit and they all take it. Give them an opportunity to profit personally and they change their behavior.
Personally think a Cat Care Policy with a $5k deductible should be the minimum encouraged. Provide a MED IRA up to $5k deduction and let the participant keep monies set aside in it over tax years instead of looting it annually as we do now. Do this and viola, most health purchases will be in cash thus cutting out the entire 3rd Party Payer we have now. Once we move the 90% of America to a cash and carry system backed by Cat Care Insurance we can deal with the 10% some other way. I was thinking those gators in the moats need regular feeding and all. Problem solved.
Posted by: Sub-tard at May 25, 2011 10:30 AM (Q5+Og)
139
So I guess we should stop punching down now?
Posted by: joncelli at May 25, 2011 10:30 AM (RD7QR)
140
Someguy troll -
NO. Ryan's Plan swings Medicare away from government and back into the private sector - where the free market can lower costs and increase competition.
The "give everyone a check" idea has been bounced around. How is that not redistribution?
NO. Ryan's Plan swings Medicare away from government and back into the private sector - where the free market can lower costs and increase competition.
The "give everyone a check" idea has been bounced around. How is that not redistribution?
Posted by: Left wing Democrat Chorus at May 25, 2011 10:30 AM (0fzsA)
141
"The ultimate goal is to allow the free market to bear on health care."
No, Ryan's ultimate goal is to keep the Democrat Party's Medicare system going. To keep Washingtonin the health care providing business.
The idea should be to return the money to the taxpayers and get Washington out of the health care business. That's what Republicans SHOULD be advocating for.
All Ryan's plan does is cement in the Democrat Party idea that the government should be in the health care business.
No, Ryan's ultimate goal is to keep the Democrat Party's Medicare system going. To keep Washingtonin the health care providing business.
The idea should be to return the money to the taxpayers and get Washington out of the health care business. That's what Republicans SHOULD be advocating for.
All Ryan's plan does is cement in the Democrat Party idea that the government should be in the health care business.
Posted by: someguy at May 25, 2011 10:31 AM (iIQ0a)
142
22 I said that to my class once, It's a math class and they asked about taxes so I hit them with a good dose of truth. Some how the conversation moved on to the poor. I said"poor"? "Really? Have you ever seen so many poor fat people in your life? I supplemented my comment with videos of real starving people from sub saharan Africa. My principal was not amused.
Posted by: Oldsailor's poet at May 25, 2011 08:45 AM (NtTkA)
I am sure he wasn't. Here in Vegas, the teachers are crying and fighting reduction in pay that the rest of us have to take, of course they have unions. however, the broke school district spent 1 million dollars on iPads for the classrooms. REALLY? What useful, necessary purpose does that serve? Technological luxury, is what the opponents were calling it, and they were right. Nobody in this country seems to get austerity any more. Even the poor. If we were called upon to sacrifice in ways the people had to during WW2, it simply wouldn't happen. We would cry and stamp our feet if we didn't get as much coffee as we wanted it when we wanted it, or had to ration our gas use. We suck.
Posted by: Oldsailor's poet at May 25, 2011 08:45 AM (NtTkA)
I am sure he wasn't. Here in Vegas, the teachers are crying and fighting reduction in pay that the rest of us have to take, of course they have unions. however, the broke school district spent 1 million dollars on iPads for the classrooms. REALLY? What useful, necessary purpose does that serve? Technological luxury, is what the opponents were calling it, and they were right. Nobody in this country seems to get austerity any more. Even the poor. If we were called upon to sacrifice in ways the people had to during WW2, it simply wouldn't happen. We would cry and stamp our feet if we didn't get as much coffee as we wanted it when we wanted it, or had to ration our gas use. We suck.
Posted by: rightzilla at May 25, 2011 10:31 AM (SPVfc)
143
Hmmmm
Posted by: curious at May 25, 2011 10:32 AM (k1rwm)
144
If we're giving that person 15K a year for premium support and they live an average life span, we end up spending $180,000.
15K a year is too high an estimate. I get $6K a year premium support from my old company and $3900/yr that I pay. That is for my wife and I both.
As for why not people over 55, it is because their retirement programs and plans are already set and assume that medicare takes over insurance at age 65. If I am not mistaken federal law actually requires that.
15K a year is too high an estimate. I get $6K a year premium support from my old company and $3900/yr that I pay. That is for my wife and I both.
As for why not people over 55, it is because their retirement programs and plans are already set and assume that medicare takes over insurance at age 65. If I am not mistaken federal law actually requires that.
Posted by: Vic at May 25, 2011 10:32 AM (M9Ie6)
145
The majority of Americans believe the Paul Ryan Kill Medicare Plan is wrong, just as they believe jilling Social Security is wrong. New York 26 proves that. What ever happened to the Republican's promise to create jobs, the reason for their mid term election wins? Funny how that has fallen off their talking points, isn't it? The American people are smarter than most of you seem to think. They see through the Republican plan to keep America poor and uneducated while the upper class grows fatter and meaner. This country was built on fairness, not these Republican false values.
Posted by: rosweed at May 25, 2011 10:32 AM (prUoB)
146
Ryan should be proposing to pay people NOT TO CONSUME health care services by returning our 1.85% payroll tax payment to us if we don't consume any health care services each year. That's how you cut health care costs. Pay people NOT TO GO and let's get the government OUT of the doctor-patient relationship.
Posted by: someguy at May 25, 2011 10:22 AM (iIQ0a)
Heh, yeah and our car insurance companies should give our premium money back if we don't have a claim. What are you talking about? Is the government only going to reimurse your doctor the 1.85% you paid in that year? Because that is the only way your plan would work.
If you want to cancel medicare entirely you should run that by the democrat ad makes, they will love you for it.
Ryans plan isn't going to pass, I don't have a problem with his plan but I am in the minority. What will end up happening is some sort of increase in taxes and decrease in services. They might try to address the waste and fraud problem as well but in the process there will be services that are disallowed.
Posted by: someguy at May 25, 2011 10:22 AM (iIQ0a)
Heh, yeah and our car insurance companies should give our premium money back if we don't have a claim. What are you talking about? Is the government only going to reimurse your doctor the 1.85% you paid in that year? Because that is the only way your plan would work.
If you want to cancel medicare entirely you should run that by the democrat ad makes, they will love you for it.
Ryans plan isn't going to pass, I don't have a problem with his plan but I am in the minority. What will end up happening is some sort of increase in taxes and decrease in services. They might try to address the waste and fraud problem as well but in the process there will be services that are disallowed.
Posted by: robtr at May 25, 2011 10:33 AM (MtwBb)
147
"Someguy troll "
Why are people who disagree on principle called "trolls." Isn't name-calling a liberal debate tactic? I thought we were all conservatives here?
I believe in the Republican Partyprinciple that the government should not be taxing us to provide others with medical care.
Paul Ryan believes in the Democrat principle that the government should be providing health care to people with tax dollars.
Isn't RYAN the troll?
Why are people who disagree on principle called "trolls." Isn't name-calling a liberal debate tactic? I thought we were all conservatives here?
I believe in the Republican Partyprinciple that the government should not be taxing us to provide others with medical care.
Paul Ryan believes in the Democrat principle that the government should be providing health care to people with tax dollars.
Isn't RYAN the troll?
Posted by: someguy at May 25, 2011 10:33 AM (iIQ0a)
148
Someguy troll. Don't re-word something and place it in quotes. Asshole.
Posted by: Left wing Democrat Chorus at May 25, 2011 10:33 AM (0fzsA)
149
Rand paul put forth a pretty good plan.
Posted by: curious at May 25, 2011 10:34 AM (k1rwm)
150
"Ryans plan isn't going to pass"
This is the fundamental fact. As long as the Senate is in Democrat Party hands and the White House belongs to Barack Obama it's fucking pointless to even discuss this shit.
The only thing it accomplishes is that it gives Democrats a weapon to bludgeon Republicans with.
And that's kind of why I think Paul Ryan is advancing it. I kind of think he's a Democrat. He must be. He can't win, yet he advances a plan that only accrues to the benefit of Democrats.
That's questionable.
This is the fundamental fact. As long as the Senate is in Democrat Party hands and the White House belongs to Barack Obama it's fucking pointless to even discuss this shit.
The only thing it accomplishes is that it gives Democrats a weapon to bludgeon Republicans with.
And that's kind of why I think Paul Ryan is advancing it. I kind of think he's a Democrat. He must be. He can't win, yet he advances a plan that only accrues to the benefit of Democrats.
That's questionable.
Posted by: someguy at May 25, 2011 10:35 AM (iIQ0a)
151
Ryan should be proposing to pay people NOT TO CONSUME health care services by returning our 1.85% payroll tax payment to us if we don't consume any health care services each year. That's how you cut health care costs. Pay people NOT TO GO and let's get the government OUT of the doctor-patient relationship.
Christ, my mother would be a fucking milionaire if they did that.
Christ, my mother would be a fucking milionaire if they did that.
Posted by: jewells45 at May 25, 2011 10:35 AM (l/N7H)
152
What ever happened to the Republican's promise to create jobs, the reason for their mid term election wins?
Harry Reid.
Harry Reid.
Posted by: toby928™ at May 25, 2011 10:36 AM (GTbGH)
153
We're pulling the trolls at an accelerated pace. I guess Ace is on somebody's radar now.
Posted by: joncelli at May 25, 2011 10:36 AM (RD7QR)
154
I listed the main points from my plan in the other thread. Premium support is the big problem in Ryan's plan. It wastes way too much money.
What you do is create a large risk pool fund. This will cover any costs over $10,000 (or whatever) that the Medicare recipient incurs that year.
Private insurers will administer those funds, and then get the opportunity to sell gap insurance (to cover costs between $1 and $10k) - that's where they make their profit. And since their is a ceiling on their risk, it will be fairly cheap. Poor Medicare recipients can get assistance for this gap insurance.
But each person gets to buy a plan they feel is right for them - they are in charge. But everyone will know they have a safety net if a catastrophic illness hits.
What you do is create a large risk pool fund. This will cover any costs over $10,000 (or whatever) that the Medicare recipient incurs that year.
Private insurers will administer those funds, and then get the opportunity to sell gap insurance (to cover costs between $1 and $10k) - that's where they make their profit. And since their is a ceiling on their risk, it will be fairly cheap. Poor Medicare recipients can get assistance for this gap insurance.
But each person gets to buy a plan they feel is right for them - they are in charge. But everyone will know they have a safety net if a catastrophic illness hits.
Posted by: Chi-Town Jerry at May 25, 2011 10:37 AM (f9c2L)
155
wow
Posted by: curious at May 25, 2011 10:38 AM (k1rwm)
156
Republicans are fucking retards. You don't earn votes by telling people you're going to fuck them over.
Yeah, we should just say "let the good times roll, we'll keep dishing out the sweet Obama stash". And then "fuck them in the ass" after the election. That would work well.
Personally I don't think being less generous with taxpayer money is fucking anyone over, but I digress.
Yeah, we should just say "let the good times roll, we'll keep dishing out the sweet Obama stash". And then "fuck them in the ass" after the election. That would work well.
Personally I don't think being less generous with taxpayer money is fucking anyone over, but I digress.
Posted by: yinzer at May 25, 2011 10:38 AM (/Mla1)
157
They see through the Republican plan to keep America poor and uneducated while the upper class grows fatter and meaner. This country was built on fairness, not these Republican false values.
Posted by: rosweed at May 25, 2011 10:32 AM (prUoB)
Is this the new Whitehouse interweb attackdog? Is that the best they can fucking do?No wonder Obama has the country in such a fucked up mess.
I am going to nameyou dickweed instead of rosweed. Arepublican lost an election in New York, no shit, the entire fucking state is a nanny state collection of fucking whiners. The republicans already left,that's why thecesspool that is New York is losing two house seats.
Posted by: rosweed at May 25, 2011 10:32 AM (prUoB)
Is this the new Whitehouse interweb attackdog? Is that the best they can fucking do?No wonder Obama has the country in such a fucked up mess.
I am going to nameyou dickweed instead of rosweed. Arepublican lost an election in New York, no shit, the entire fucking state is a nanny state collection of fucking whiners. The republicans already left,that's why thecesspool that is New York is losing two house seats.
Posted by: robtr at May 25, 2011 10:39 AM (MtwBb)
158
"We're pulling the trolls at an accelerated pace."
Name-calling is an Alinsky Democrat Party debate tactic. Don't sink to their level.
Debate on the principles being advocated.
Paul Ryan wants to keep Washington Democrats in the health care business, instead of returning to us taxpayers the tax dollars we paid in and getting Washington the fuck OUT of the health care providing business.
Ryan's plan helps Democrats and hurts Republicans.
Name-calling is an Alinsky Democrat Party debate tactic. Don't sink to their level.
Debate on the principles being advocated.
Paul Ryan wants to keep Washington Democrats in the health care business, instead of returning to us taxpayers the tax dollars we paid in and getting Washington the fuck OUT of the health care providing business.
Ryan's plan helps Democrats and hurts Republicans.
Posted by: someguy at May 25, 2011 10:40 AM (iIQ0a)
159
Well, it's very nicely done - Ryan seems to be legit, not nearly enough to get me to re-register (R) (being that my senator is Scott RiNO Brown I have little incentive there, honestly), but at least he's a serious guy making serious proposals. Hardly perfect, but at least they're steps in the right direction.
But here's the problem - for 3-4 generations now Idol America has come to expect they can, by birthright, consume more government than they're willing to pay for. The Free Shit Army is now well over half the population, and growing rapidly. So Ryan is trying to sell a plan for some modest, very modest austerity while asking for a teeny-weeny bit of personal responsibility of a population who believes they are entitled to massive piles of other peoples' money in perpetuity.
And there ain't nothing gonna change that mentality until the supermarket shelves are empty, McDonald's and Starbucks are closed and the lights go out. And by then the only thing that's gonna matter is how quickly you can get out of the city you live in (and if you're not out of the major metros by the time the lights go out you'd best prepare to meet your maker because the cities are going to become killing-fields overnight) and how much food, water and lead and lead delivery systems you have stored.
Too bad, too - because like I said Rep Ryan seems to be quite legit. Smart guy, just came along about 20-years too late.
But here's the problem - for 3-4 generations now Idol America has come to expect they can, by birthright, consume more government than they're willing to pay for. The Free Shit Army is now well over half the population, and growing rapidly. So Ryan is trying to sell a plan for some modest, very modest austerity while asking for a teeny-weeny bit of personal responsibility of a population who believes they are entitled to massive piles of other peoples' money in perpetuity.
And there ain't nothing gonna change that mentality until the supermarket shelves are empty, McDonald's and Starbucks are closed and the lights go out. And by then the only thing that's gonna matter is how quickly you can get out of the city you live in (and if you're not out of the major metros by the time the lights go out you'd best prepare to meet your maker because the cities are going to become killing-fields overnight) and how much food, water and lead and lead delivery systems you have stored.
Too bad, too - because like I said Rep Ryan seems to be quite legit. Smart guy, just came along about 20-years too late.
Posted by: DocJ at May 25, 2011 10:40 AM (AWzOz)
160
"Personally I don't think being less generous with taxpayer money is fucking anyone over. "
13.5 million unemployed voters would disagree with you. These people are unemployed and joined by 10 million others who are underemployed primarily beccause of Barack Obama's anti-employment economic principles.
And Newt's wants to tell these voters (23.5 million of them) that he wants to cut their unemployment check.
Way to go, Newt. You just gave Barack Obama a 23.5 million vote head start. Fucking retard.
Please tell me there are some adults in the room at the RNC who understand human motivations.
What Republicans should be telling unemployed voters is that they'll cut NPR and give some ofthat money to the unemployed. What Republicans shold be telling the unemployed is they'll cut Obama's promised $1 billion to Egypt and instead give $500 million to the unemployed.
Obama sends money to Syria every year. Why aren't Republicans promising to redirect some of that money to unemployed instead (and saving the rest, lowering overall costs?)
That's how you get elected and cut government spending all in one fell swoop.
13.5 million unemployed voters would disagree with you. These people are unemployed and joined by 10 million others who are underemployed primarily beccause of Barack Obama's anti-employment economic principles.
And Newt's wants to tell these voters (23.5 million of them) that he wants to cut their unemployment check.
Way to go, Newt. You just gave Barack Obama a 23.5 million vote head start. Fucking retard.
Please tell me there are some adults in the room at the RNC who understand human motivations.
What Republicans should be telling unemployed voters is that they'll cut NPR and give some ofthat money to the unemployed. What Republicans shold be telling the unemployed is they'll cut Obama's promised $1 billion to Egypt and instead give $500 million to the unemployed.
Obama sends money to Syria every year. Why aren't Republicans promising to redirect some of that money to unemployed instead (and saving the rest, lowering overall costs?)
That's how you get elected and cut government spending all in one fell swoop.
Posted by: someguy at May 25, 2011 10:45 AM (iIQ0a)
161
I think that many people here don't understand how the market lowers costs.
It lowers costs as people are unable to afford certain medical procedures because Medicare provides a lower and lower proportion of a senior's total health care costs.
I think this is better than the status quo, but it is no miracle. It is not as if the prices just get cheaper because it is in the market. Prices go down as people are unable to pay for services and health care costs are subject to income constraints.
If we go for the Ryan plan, we have to be willing to honestly confront this and be prepared to vote down any Dem calls for 'annual health care cost increases' every single year after the plan goes into effect. It is politically tough to do.
It lowers costs as people are unable to afford certain medical procedures because Medicare provides a lower and lower proportion of a senior's total health care costs.
I think this is better than the status quo, but it is no miracle. It is not as if the prices just get cheaper because it is in the market. Prices go down as people are unable to pay for services and health care costs are subject to income constraints.
If we go for the Ryan plan, we have to be willing to honestly confront this and be prepared to vote down any Dem calls for 'annual health care cost increases' every single year after the plan goes into effect. It is politically tough to do.
Posted by: Paper at May 25, 2011 10:48 AM (VoSja)
162
And that's kind of why I think Paul Ryan is advancing it. I kind of think he's a Democrat. He must be. He can't win, yet he advances a plan that only accrues to the benefit of Democrats.
That's questionable.
Posted by: someguy at May 25, 2011 10:35 AM (iIQ0a)
Are you the same someguy that was such a pain in the ass around here about a year ago saying stupid stuff all the time? You sound like it.
That's questionable.
Posted by: someguy at May 25, 2011 10:35 AM (iIQ0a)
Are you the same someguy that was such a pain in the ass around here about a year ago saying stupid stuff all the time? You sound like it.
Posted by: robtr at May 25, 2011 10:48 AM (MtwBb)
163
100
Every major paper in the country that I looked at this morning had the
Democrat spin on "the Ryan plan" and the mediscare lies,
Posted by: Vic at May 25, 2011 09:57 AM (M9Ie6)
The Buffalo News was sickening this morning following the NY-26 election. In the News' gleeful estimation, the GOP is reeling nationally now all the way from Alaska to Florida; soul-searching and reflecting on where they went wrong, and how to distance themselves from Ryan's plan.
Every major paper in the country that I looked at this morning had the
Democrat spin on "the Ryan plan" and the mediscare lies,
Posted by: Vic at May 25, 2011 09:57 AM (M9Ie6)
The Buffalo News was sickening this morning following the NY-26 election. In the News' gleeful estimation, the GOP is reeling nationally now all the way from Alaska to Florida; soul-searching and reflecting on where they went wrong, and how to distance themselves from Ryan's plan.
Posted by: Pyrocles at May 25, 2011 10:49 AM (cv5Iw)
164
160 They see through the Republican plan to keep America poor and uneducated while the upper class grows fatter and meaner. This country was built on fairness, not these Republican false values.
Posted by: rosweed at May 25, 2011 10:32 AM (prUoB)
Geez, lets count the petals of hypocracy with this flower known as OBAMACARE. Borrow money from Chinese peasants and buy the homies a caddilac health plan. Then devalue the money by printing moreof itand pay the peasants back with cheap dollars. All while blaming Republicans for being cheap. This is a colonial empire's definition of fairness. Feed the home country at the expense of the colonials. Did you vote for a colonial empire? Is that what hope and change stands for? Some fairness. BTW your plan will ultimately lead to a world war (see Hitler and international debt). All those autobahns, big army/air forceand VWs for the masses were purchased with debt. When time came to pay up, they just invaded the lender countries. Kind of like moats and gators gone wild. I be loving me some Hope and Change Uber Alles.
Posted by: rosweed at May 25, 2011 10:32 AM (prUoB)
Geez, lets count the petals of hypocracy with this flower known as OBAMACARE. Borrow money from Chinese peasants and buy the homies a caddilac health plan. Then devalue the money by printing moreof itand pay the peasants back with cheap dollars. All while blaming Republicans for being cheap. This is a colonial empire's definition of fairness. Feed the home country at the expense of the colonials. Did you vote for a colonial empire? Is that what hope and change stands for? Some fairness. BTW your plan will ultimately lead to a world war (see Hitler and international debt). All those autobahns, big army/air forceand VWs for the masses were purchased with debt. When time came to pay up, they just invaded the lender countries. Kind of like moats and gators gone wild. I be loving me some Hope and Change Uber Alles.
Posted by: Sub-tard at May 25, 2011 10:51 AM (Q5+Og)
165
Who will report on those facts? The 95% of journallists who donate to the democrats?
It's like the government. What recourse do you have against the entity that writes and enforces the rules.
Posted by: Ben at May 25, 2011 10:12 AM (wuv1c)
But Faux News is the only biased news source! /sarc
It's like the government. What recourse do you have against the entity that writes and enforces the rules.
Posted by: Ben at May 25, 2011 10:12 AM (wuv1c)
But Faux News is the only biased news source! /sarc
Posted by: Pyrocles at May 25, 2011 10:52 AM (cv5Iw)
166
Obama sends about $100 billion every year to colleges and universities fro various federal programs. Only Democrats benefit by this spending.
Republicans should promise to cut that by $50 billion ... and promise to give $25 billion to the unemployed and just then stop spending the other $25 billion.
Net: 23.5 million new Republican voters and savings of $25 billion to the Treasury.
We have too many colleges and universities creating college graduates that compete for fewer and fewer jobs requiring a college degree. It's dumb and ONLY accrues to the benefit of Democrats. That's electorally stupid and yet Republicans have voted for precisely this type of spending.
Why aren't Republicans advocating the elimination of the Department of Education and promising that money to seniors and the unemployed? The reason is that there are too many Democrats in the Republican Party.
Republicans should promise to cut that by $50 billion ... and promise to give $25 billion to the unemployed and just then stop spending the other $25 billion.
Net: 23.5 million new Republican voters and savings of $25 billion to the Treasury.
We have too many colleges and universities creating college graduates that compete for fewer and fewer jobs requiring a college degree. It's dumb and ONLY accrues to the benefit of Democrats. That's electorally stupid and yet Republicans have voted for precisely this type of spending.
Why aren't Republicans advocating the elimination of the Department of Education and promising that money to seniors and the unemployed? The reason is that there are too many Democrats in the Republican Party.
Posted by: someguy at May 25, 2011 10:52 AM (iIQ0a)
167
#157
But this is the problem with health care. The majority of health dollars are spent by people whose expensesare over any reasonable floor you could set for a person or household in any one year ($5k, $10k, whatever).
Everyone shopping around for a somewhat cheaper primary care physician is not as important as lowering costs onpeople spending hundreds of thousands of dollars a year due to catastophic illness. Any real cost control has to have a plan for dealing with that.
But this is the problem with health care. The majority of health dollars are spent by people whose expensesare over any reasonable floor you could set for a person or household in any one year ($5k, $10k, whatever).
Everyone shopping around for a somewhat cheaper primary care physician is not as important as lowering costs onpeople spending hundreds of thousands of dollars a year due to catastophic illness. Any real cost control has to have a plan for dealing with that.
Posted by: Paper at May 25, 2011 10:53 AM (VoSja)
168
The collective left seethe and rage over the mere mention of the word and concept: "Privatization". The collective left - the party of mob-unions and big government- pimp "privatization" as a dirty word.
So the collective left's answer is to raise taxes, print money and hike our deficit into future generation killing stratosphere -all whilethey neverattempt to cure the problem. The sollution is more government. And,After all,higher tax ratesand more government are the only solution, and if the collective left(D) can scare seniors and trick the public into believing that the only solution is MORE GOVERNMENT, well then - we have our answer. Screw Ryan’s plan – it’s too scary. We need more empty promises, higher taxes, death to most of the private sector and those jobs and more big daddy government and unions.
Save us, big government. You're our only hope.
So the collective left's answer is to raise taxes, print money and hike our deficit into future generation killing stratosphere -all whilethey neverattempt to cure the problem. The sollution is more government. And,After all,higher tax ratesand more government are the only solution, and if the collective left(D) can scare seniors and trick the public into believing that the only solution is MORE GOVERNMENT, well then - we have our answer. Screw Ryan’s plan – it’s too scary. We need more empty promises, higher taxes, death to most of the private sector and those jobs and more big daddy government and unions.
Save us, big government. You're our only hope.
Posted by: Lemon Kitten at May 25, 2011 10:54 AM (0fzsA)
169
"The GOP is reeling nationally now all the way from Alaska to Florida; soul-searching and reflecting on where they went wrong, and how to distance themselves from Ryan's plan."
Precisely.
This is why Ryan's plan is electorally stupid. It can't pass but it gives Democrats a weapon to bludgeon Repbulicans. That's just strategically moronic.
It can't pass. (Last time I checked, Democrats controlled the Senate and had veto power in the White House). So why advcoate something that only helps Democrats and gives them electoral weapons?
Precisely.
This is why Ryan's plan is electorally stupid. It can't pass but it gives Democrats a weapon to bludgeon Repbulicans. That's just strategically moronic.
It can't pass. (Last time I checked, Democrats controlled the Senate and had veto power in the White House). So why advcoate something that only helps Democrats and gives them electoral weapons?
Posted by: someguy at May 25, 2011 10:55 AM (iIQ0a)
170
#169
You aren't going to find many polls showing that people want to cut education spending in half. In fact, you are likely to find the opposite.
We blame too much on the Republican 'establishment' that is really nothing more than the preferences of voters.
This is the real DOOM.
You aren't going to find many polls showing that people want to cut education spending in half. In fact, you are likely to find the opposite.
We blame too much on the Republican 'establishment' that is really nothing more than the preferences of voters.
This is the real DOOM.
Posted by: Paper at May 25, 2011 10:56 AM (VoSja)
171
What Republicans shold be telling the unemployed
is they'll cut Obama's promised $1 billion to Egypt and instead give
$500 million to the unemployed.
Posted by: someguy at May 25, 2011 10:45 AM (iIQ0a)
Let's see. $500 mil to 13.5 million folks per year. That's...hm...about $40 a year. You have such great plans, no wonder you're trashing Ryan's plan and calling him a liar.
is they'll cut Obama's promised $1 billion to Egypt and instead give
$500 million to the unemployed.
Posted by: someguy at May 25, 2011 10:45 AM (iIQ0a)
Let's see. $500 mil to 13.5 million folks per year. That's...hm...about $40 a year. You have such great plans, no wonder you're trashing Ryan's plan and calling him a liar.
Posted by: FUBAR at May 25, 2011 10:57 AM (1fanL)
172
"The majority of health dollars are spent by people whose expensesare over any reasonable floor you could set for a person or household in any one year ($5k, $10k, whatever). "
This is wrong.
The majority of health care dollars are spent by people who pay virtually NOTHING. Because someone ELSE is paying. That's why nobody gives two shits about "health care costs." The consumer isnotdirectly paying for their health care. And nothing will change until that fact changes.
This is wrong.
The majority of health care dollars are spent by people who pay virtually NOTHING. Because someone ELSE is paying. That's why nobody gives two shits about "health care costs." The consumer isnotdirectly paying for their health care. And nothing will change until that fact changes.
Posted by: someguy at May 25, 2011 10:58 AM (iIQ0a)
173
This is why Ryan's plan is electorally stupid. It
can't pass but it gives Democrats a weapon to bludgeon Repbulicans.
That's just strategically moronic.
It can't pass. (Last time I checked, Democrats controlled the Senate
and had veto power in the White House). So why advcoate something that
only helps Democrats and gives them electoral weapons?
Posted by: someguy at May 25, 2011 10:55 AM (iIQ0a)
Where's your plan? I mean, unless the plan to cut Egypt's aid and give the unemployed 40 bucks. Is there more?
can't pass but it gives Democrats a weapon to bludgeon Repbulicans.
That's just strategically moronic.
It can't pass. (Last time I checked, Democrats controlled the Senate
and had veto power in the White House). So why advcoate something that
only helps Democrats and gives them electoral weapons?
Posted by: someguy at May 25, 2011 10:55 AM (iIQ0a)
Where's your plan? I mean, unless the plan to cut Egypt's aid and give the unemployed 40 bucks. Is there more?
Posted by: FUBAR at May 25, 2011 10:59 AM (1fanL)
174
If you want health care costs to be decreased, people have to go without health care. There cannot be an unlimited support to all health care. No health care system in the world can promise unlimited care without nation bankrupting costs.
Socialist systems keep costs low by denying care bureaucratically and market systems keep costs low by denying care on ability to pay.
There is no way around this.
Socialist systems keep costs low by denying care bureaucratically and market systems keep costs low by denying care on ability to pay.
There is no way around this.
Posted by: Paper at May 25, 2011 10:59 AM (VoSja)
175
"That's...hm...about $40 a year."
Going rate for a vote is $10 on the street. I'm proposing that we offer $40. I doubt anyone would refuse that offer.
Going rate for a vote is $10 on the street. I'm proposing that we offer $40. I doubt anyone would refuse that offer.
Posted by: someguy at May 25, 2011 10:59 AM (iIQ0a)
176
So someguy your plan is to buy votes by giving the unemployed more money and less motivation to look for a job not just the job they think they deserve? I think you may be the democrat. How about instead of using that '25billion you talk about to pay more to the unemployed how about giving it to businesses in forms of tax cuts to expand and thus increase employment? But that might make the business more money and we can't have big business succeed right?
Posted by: polynikes - Romney supporter at May 25, 2011 11:00 AM (T8iAI)
177
Republicans should promise to cut that by $50
billion ... and promise to give $25 billion to the unemployed and just
then stop spending the other $25 billion.
Net: 23.5 million new Republican voters and savings of $25 billion to the Treasury.
We have too many colleges and universities creating college graduates
that compete for fewer and fewer jobs requiring a college degree. It's
dumb and ONLY accrues to the benefit of Democrats. That's electorally
stupid and yet Republicans have voted for precisely this type of
spending.
Why aren't Republicans advocating the elimination of the Department
of Education and promising that money to seniors and the unemployed? The
reason is that there are too many Democrats in the Republican Party.
Posted by: someguy at May 25, 2011 10:52 AM (iIQ0a)
Yeah, this isn't giving Democrats a club to bludgeon us with. Coherent much?
billion ... and promise to give $25 billion to the unemployed and just
then stop spending the other $25 billion.
Net: 23.5 million new Republican voters and savings of $25 billion to the Treasury.
We have too many colleges and universities creating college graduates
that compete for fewer and fewer jobs requiring a college degree. It's
dumb and ONLY accrues to the benefit of Democrats. That's electorally
stupid and yet Republicans have voted for precisely this type of
spending.
Why aren't Republicans advocating the elimination of the Department
of Education and promising that money to seniors and the unemployed? The
reason is that there are too many Democrats in the Republican Party.
Posted by: someguy at May 25, 2011 10:52 AM (iIQ0a)
Yeah, this isn't giving Democrats a club to bludgeon us with. Coherent much?
Posted by: FUBAR at May 25, 2011 11:00 AM (1fanL)
178
Posted by: someguy at May 25, 2011 10:31 AM (iIQ0a)
"The ultimate goal" is different than "his ultimate goal." Don't misinterpret my word; that's an Alinsky tactic.
"The ultimate goal" is different than "his ultimate goal." Don't misinterpret my word; that's an Alinsky tactic.
Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo (NJConservative) at May 25, 2011 11:01 AM (LH6ir)
179
Going rate for a vote is $10 on the street. I'm proposing that we offer $40. I doubt anyone would refuse that offer.
Posted by: someguy at May 25, 2011 10:59 AM (iIQ0a)
You want to buy votes? And the Republicans aren't serious? Oops, your clown nose just fell off.
Posted by: someguy at May 25, 2011 10:59 AM (iIQ0a)
You want to buy votes? And the Republicans aren't serious? Oops, your clown nose just fell off.
Posted by: FUBAR at May 25, 2011 11:01 AM (1fanL)
180
#175
This is what I'm saying. The key to keeping costs low would be letting people in these situations not receive health care if they are not market-insured or cannot pay for care. If we subsidize health care at all for this people beyond the market's ability to provide insurance (even by providing subsidies), we are providing a implicit guarantee to costs increasing for any needed medical service.
We have no political will to do that, so we have a half-market, half-socialist system that will never control costs.
This is what I'm saying. The key to keeping costs low would be letting people in these situations not receive health care if they are not market-insured or cannot pay for care. If we subsidize health care at all for this people beyond the market's ability to provide insurance (even by providing subsidies), we are providing a implicit guarantee to costs increasing for any needed medical service.
We have no political will to do that, so we have a half-market, half-socialist system that will never control costs.
Posted by: Paper at May 25, 2011 11:02 AM (VoSja)
181
Socialist systems keep costs low by denying care
bureaucratically and market systems keep costs low by denying care on
ability to pay.
There is no way around this.
Posted by: Paper
..........
This.
It does not matter who is paying the bill. The only way to cut costs is to deliver less service - or fundamentally increase the productivity of the delivery system i.e. HMO's that tightly manage care.
Socialist systems keep costs low by denying care
bureaucratically and market systems keep costs low by denying care on
ability to pay.
There is no way around this.
Posted by: Paper
..........
This.
It does not matter who is paying the bill. The only way to cut costs is to deliver less service - or fundamentally increase the productivity of the delivery system i.e. HMO's that tightly manage care.
Posted by: Chi-Town Jerry at May 25, 2011 11:02 AM (f9c2L)
182
"If you want health care costs to be decreased, people have to go without health care."
An astounding observation. If you PAY PEOPLE not to consume health care, many of them won't.
We can do that by returning the 1.85% payroll tax to everyone who consumes no health care every year. Once people are properly incentivized, the problem will be solved.
The real problem is that Washington politicians are making money hand over fist by the government involvement in health care: Republican Bill Frist's family, for example. Who own Hospital Corporation of America and who have been made billionaires on Democrat Party health care reform.
Is Paul Ryan friends with Bill Frist?
An astounding observation. If you PAY PEOPLE not to consume health care, many of them won't.
We can do that by returning the 1.85% payroll tax to everyone who consumes no health care every year. Once people are properly incentivized, the problem will be solved.
The real problem is that Washington politicians are making money hand over fist by the government involvement in health care: Republican Bill Frist's family, for example. Who own Hospital Corporation of America and who have been made billionaires on Democrat Party health care reform.
Is Paul Ryan friends with Bill Frist?
Posted by: someguy at May 25, 2011 11:03 AM (iIQ0a)
183
Posted by: someguy at May 25, 2011 10:58 AM (iIQ0a)
Sorry, but....what the fuck are you talking about?
Sorry, but....what the fuck are you talking about?
Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo (NJConservative) at May 25, 2011 11:05 AM (LH6ir)
184
If Republicans really want to have this battle, they have to say bureaucratic boards rationing or rationing based on your income.
They can't just pretend that there is no rationing because when it comes, people will bitch and moan and the vouchers will just be raised with the cost of health care inflation, effectively making all of this useless.
They can't just pretend that there is no rationing because when it comes, people will bitch and moan and the vouchers will just be raised with the cost of health care inflation, effectively making all of this useless.
Posted by: Paper at May 25, 2011 11:07 AM (VoSja)
185
An astounding observation. If you PAY PEOPLE not to consume health care, many of them won't.
Posted by: someguy at May 25, 2011 11:03 AM (iIQ0a)
And put off needed health care until the penny's worth of prevention turns into a million dollars worth of cure.Yeah, you're like totally serious. Because the Democrats wouldn't bludgeon any Republican who starts touting your superawesome plan.
An astounding observation. If you PAY PEOPLE not to consume health care, many of them won't.
Posted by: someguy at May 25, 2011 11:03 AM (iIQ0a)
And put off needed health care until the penny's worth of prevention turns into a million dollars worth of cure.Yeah, you're like totally serious. Because the Democrats wouldn't bludgeon any Republican who starts touting your superawesome plan.
Posted by: FUBAR at May 25, 2011 11:07 AM (1fanL)
186
Socialist systems keep costs low by denying care bureaucratically and market systems keep costs low by denying care on ability to pay.
Paper, you logic is impeccable however we are not dealing with logic but with voters. Because we are dealing with voters lets focus on getting more votes than the other guy and win. Ryan has a plan. Ryan likes to give power point presentations. Some pointy heads like to hear plans and debate them. Most voters want to know how to get the economy out of the shitter. So the Republican plan is to educate Americans on Ryan's Plan? Huh, what was the question? Lets focus on killing Obamacare by first taking the WH and the Senate. Then we can entertain different plans. The voters want to know how we restore the economy. Answer, get rid of Obama and his henchmen. Kill Obamacare. Then engage on saving Medicare or some other alternative. I don't think talking about saving Medicare is doable when you first need to kill Obamacare. Point out that Obama is the one underfunding Medicare. Attack, don't defend. Ryan is one congressman with a plan. We need 7 Senate seats, why bother with Ryan?
Paper, you logic is impeccable however we are not dealing with logic but with voters. Because we are dealing with voters lets focus on getting more votes than the other guy and win. Ryan has a plan. Ryan likes to give power point presentations. Some pointy heads like to hear plans and debate them. Most voters want to know how to get the economy out of the shitter. So the Republican plan is to educate Americans on Ryan's Plan? Huh, what was the question? Lets focus on killing Obamacare by first taking the WH and the Senate. Then we can entertain different plans. The voters want to know how we restore the economy. Answer, get rid of Obama and his henchmen. Kill Obamacare. Then engage on saving Medicare or some other alternative. I don't think talking about saving Medicare is doable when you first need to kill Obamacare. Point out that Obama is the one underfunding Medicare. Attack, don't defend. Ryan is one congressman with a plan. We need 7 Senate seats, why bother with Ryan?
Posted by: Sub-tard at May 25, 2011 11:07 AM (Q5+Og)
187
Are you friends with Barney Frank?
Posted by: FUBAR at May 25, 2011 11:08 AM (1fanL)
188
"Sorry, but....what the fuck are you talking about?"
I'm not surprised that you're unaware of the fact that Republican Speaker of the House Bill Frist's family owns Hospital Corporation of America and are now billionaires because of Democrat Party "health care reform" that they helped push through.
I'm not surprised that you're unaware of the fact that Republican Speaker of the House Bill Frist's family owns Hospital Corporation of America and are now billionaires because of Democrat Party "health care reform" that they helped push through.
Posted by: someguy at May 25, 2011 11:09 AM (iIQ0a)
189
I'm not surprised that you're unaware of the fact that Republican Speaker of the House Bill Frist's family owns Hospital Corporation of America and are now billionaires because of Democrat Party "health care reform" that they helped push through.
Posted by: someguy at May 25, 2011 11:09 AM (iIQ0a)
Yes, you and your superior knowledge. What about your question if Ryan is friends with Frist? That's pure douchebaggery, douchebag.
Posted by: someguy at May 25, 2011 11:09 AM (iIQ0a)
Yes, you and your superior knowledge. What about your question if Ryan is friends with Frist? That's pure douchebaggery, douchebag.
Posted by: FUBAR at May 25, 2011 11:10 AM (1fanL)
190
"If you PAY PEOPLE not to consume health care, many of them won't."
Posted by: someguy at May 25, 2011 11:03 AM (iIQ0a)
So? Most people who don't really need that health care are not consuming much to begin with. Is this too hard for you? Check the data on costs during the lasdt year of life, and you will discover where much of the money goes. It is the sick among us who use health care, and no amount of incentivization will change their behavior.
Oh, and A+B=C cannot be rebutted with: No. Pink is lighter than purple.
Posted by: someguy at May 25, 2011 11:03 AM (iIQ0a)
So? Most people who don't really need that health care are not consuming much to begin with. Is this too hard for you? Check the data on costs during the lasdt year of life, and you will discover where much of the money goes. It is the sick among us who use health care, and no amount of incentivization will change their behavior.
Oh, and A+B=C cannot be rebutted with: No. Pink is lighter than purple.
Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo (NJConservative) at May 25, 2011 11:11 AM (LH6ir)
191
187 If Republicans really want to have this battle, they have to say
bureaucratic boards rationing or rationing based on your income.
Under the Republican plan, those who are sicker and low income receive more money than those who are wealthier and can afford care.
bureaucratic boards rationing or rationing based on your income.
Under the Republican plan, those who are sicker and low income receive more money than those who are wealthier and can afford care.
Posted by: Miss'80sBaby at May 25, 2011 11:11 AM (CLYmB)
192
Because the Democrats wouldn't bludgeon any Republican who starts touting your superawesome plan.
Of course they would, but it wouldn't be effective. Once people realize they can get their tax dollars returned to them, theirnatural human instinct for making moneywould take over and they'd vote for Republicans who advocated such a strategy.
There are a LOT of Democrats in this room working very hard to keep the dollars flowing to Washington. I'm for RETURNING those dollars back to Americans.
That's conservative. That's a Republican principle. You folks sound like you want money to keep flowing to Washignton.
Of course they would, but it wouldn't be effective. Once people realize they can get their tax dollars returned to them, theirnatural human instinct for making moneywould take over and they'd vote for Republicans who advocated such a strategy.
There are a LOT of Democrats in this room working very hard to keep the dollars flowing to Washington. I'm for RETURNING those dollars back to Americans.
That's conservative. That's a Republican principle. You folks sound like you want money to keep flowing to Washignton.
Posted by: someguy at May 25, 2011 11:12 AM (iIQ0a)
193
Oh no. Doctor and surgeon Dr. Frist owned hospitals way before anyone knew who Obama was. You're insane.
Posted by: polynikes - Romney supporter at May 25, 2011 11:12 AM (T8iAI)
194
#189
I've said fora while that the reason the Dems had the majority to pass ObamaCare was because the harped on two or three popular talking points (health insurance for everyone, no pre-existing conditions) and then passed a bill with hundreds of things that no one would have ever let them get near office to vote on.
This is what we have to do. Talk among ourselves about what is best, but campaign on a few popular points.
I've said fora while that the reason the Dems had the majority to pass ObamaCare was because the harped on two or three popular talking points (health insurance for everyone, no pre-existing conditions) and then passed a bill with hundreds of things that no one would have ever let them get near office to vote on.
This is what we have to do. Talk among ourselves about what is best, but campaign on a few popular points.
Posted by: Paper at May 25, 2011 11:12 AM (VoSja)
195
Posted by: someguy at May 25, 2011 11:09 AM (iIQ0a)
I apologize. I was trying to understand your points, but now see that you are too fucking dense to discuss anything with, except maybe the color of the sky in your world.
Condescension without superior knowledge comes off as stupidity.
I apologize. I was trying to understand your points, but now see that you are too fucking dense to discuss anything with, except maybe the color of the sky in your world.
Condescension without superior knowledge comes off as stupidity.
Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo (NJConservative) at May 25, 2011 11:13 AM (LH6ir)
196
Posted by: Miss'80sBaby at May 25, 2011 11:11 AM (CLYmB)
Talk about breasts will be more enlightening, mostly because most moronette's breasts are more intelligent and have better argument skills than someguy.
Talk about breasts will be more enlightening, mostly because most moronette's breasts are more intelligent and have better argument skills than someguy.
Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo (NJConservative) at May 25, 2011 11:15 AM (LH6ir)
197
#194
Yes, but it still has to be a declining amount of the person's total health care costs over time or it won't result in any cost control. We can't miss the bigger picture that decreasing costs = making individuals pay more out of income. There is no way around this. If we ignore this, we just set ourselves up to vote on increasing the voucher amounts every year.
If you mean this as something we should talk about politically, I completely agree.
Yes, but it still has to be a declining amount of the person's total health care costs over time or it won't result in any cost control. We can't miss the bigger picture that decreasing costs = making individuals pay more out of income. There is no way around this. If we ignore this, we just set ourselves up to vote on increasing the voucher amounts every year.
If you mean this as something we should talk about politically, I completely agree.
Posted by: Paper at May 25, 2011 11:15 AM (VoSja)
198
Of course they would, but it wouldn't be
effective. Once people realize they can get their tax dollars returned
to them, theirnatural human instinct for making moneywould take over
and they'd vote for Republicans who advocated such a strategy.
Posted by: someguy at May 25, 2011 11:12 AM (iIQ0a)
Horseshit. What about the people who don't pay taxes? Are you really trying to argue that people will want 1.85% vs free unlimited health care? Because that's the choice the Dems will give them.We're trying to stay in the Overton window. You're jumping out of it.
Face it. You aren't that smart.
effective. Once people realize they can get their tax dollars returned
to them, theirnatural human instinct for making moneywould take over
and they'd vote for Republicans who advocated such a strategy.
Posted by: someguy at May 25, 2011 11:12 AM (iIQ0a)
Horseshit. What about the people who don't pay taxes? Are you really trying to argue that people will want 1.85% vs free unlimited health care? Because that's the choice the Dems will give them.We're trying to stay in the Overton window. You're jumping out of it.
Face it. You aren't that smart.
Posted by: FUBAR at May 25, 2011 11:16 AM (1fanL)
199
We can't miss the bigger picture that decreasing costs = making individuals pay more out of income.
This sounds suspiciously like a tax increase? Are Republicans for raising the Medicare taxes of Americans?
This sounds suspiciously like a tax increase? Are Republicans for raising the Medicare taxes of Americans?
Posted by: someguy at May 25, 2011 11:16 AM (iIQ0a)
200
This sounds suspiciously like a tax increase? Are Republicans for raising the Medicare taxes of Americans?
Posted by: someguy at May 25, 2011 11:16 AM (iIQ0a)
Yep, people paying more of their own costs is a tax increase. Are you a Democrat?
Posted by: someguy at May 25, 2011 11:16 AM (iIQ0a)
Yep, people paying more of their own costs is a tax increase. Are you a Democrat?
Posted by: FUBAR at May 25, 2011 11:17 AM (1fanL)
201
#202
Having people make choices about how to spend the money they earn is not a tax increase.
Having people make choices about how to spend the money they earn is not a tax increase.
Posted by: Paper at May 25, 2011 11:18 AM (VoSja)
202
We're trying to stay in the Overton window. You're jumping out of it.
Yes, you want to stay in the window that helps Democrats. I get that.
Yes, you want to stay in the window that helps Democrats. I get that.
Posted by: someguy at May 25, 2011 11:18 AM (iIQ0a)
203
#203
Beat me to it.
Beat me to it.
Posted by: Paper at May 25, 2011 11:19 AM (VoSja)
204
Making people pay more sounds like a tax increase Are Republicans for raising the Medicare taxes of Americans? Because I thought Republicans were against tax increases.
Posted by: someguy at May 25, 2011 11:19 AM (iIQ0a)
205
Yes, you want to stay in the window that helps Democrats. I get that.
Posted by: someguy at May 25, 2011 11:18 AM (iIQ0a)
So you don't know what an Overton window is either, huh? But you're supersmart, much smarter than us dumbasses. How about go the fuck away?
Posted by: someguy at May 25, 2011 11:18 AM (iIQ0a)
So you don't know what an Overton window is either, huh? But you're supersmart, much smarter than us dumbasses. How about go the fuck away?
Posted by: FUBAR at May 25, 2011 11:20 AM (1fanL)
206
Making people pay more sounds like a tax increase
Are Republicans for raising the Medicare taxes of Americans? Because I
thought Republicans were against tax increases.
Posted by: someguy at May 25, 2011 11:19 AM (iIQ0a)
Stupid troll.
Are Republicans for raising the Medicare taxes of Americans? Because I
thought Republicans were against tax increases.
Posted by: someguy at May 25, 2011 11:19 AM (iIQ0a)
Stupid troll.
Posted by: FUBAR at May 25, 2011 11:21 AM (1fanL)
207
Tickle your ass with a feather sounds a lot like particularly nasty weather but it ain't the same jackass.
Posted by: polynikes - Romney supporter at May 25, 2011 11:22 AM (T8iAI)
208
You don't seem to understand the Ryan plan someguy. Here is the short version.
Health care costs for Medicare recipients goes up by (let's say) 7% per year. The vouchers that Ryan proposes only go up by 4% a year. This means that over time, Medicare pays a lower percentage of total health care costs for seniors.
If seniors want more care, they can pay out of pocket for more care or a higher tier of insurance. Because people have to pay for more and more themselves and because people only have so much money to spend, costs have to come down to be consistent with ability to pay. Over time, health care costs become more in line with what people can actually pay rather than with how much money we can tax/borrow.
Health care costs for Medicare recipients goes up by (let's say) 7% per year. The vouchers that Ryan proposes only go up by 4% a year. This means that over time, Medicare pays a lower percentage of total health care costs for seniors.
If seniors want more care, they can pay out of pocket for more care or a higher tier of insurance. Because people have to pay for more and more themselves and because people only have so much money to spend, costs have to come down to be consistent with ability to pay. Over time, health care costs become more in line with what people can actually pay rather than with how much money we can tax/borrow.
Posted by: Paper at May 25, 2011 11:23 AM (VoSja)
209
Posted by: Paper at May 25, 2011 11:23 AM (VoSja)
Oh I see. You think he's arguing in good faith. You're more patient than I am, I'll give you that.
Oh I see. You think he's arguing in good faith. You're more patient than I am, I'll give you that.
Posted by: FUBAR at May 25, 2011 11:24 AM (1fanL)
210
#212
I'm hoping. I completely agree with your posts above.
I'm hoping. I completely agree with your posts above.
Posted by: Paper at May 25, 2011 11:26 AM (VoSja)
211
These videos are pointless without him running for president. All it does is allow him to be set up as a pawn by the rest of the field.
Posted by: carl at May 25, 2011 11:27 AM (lUn3C)
212
Paper that explanation was too logical for someguy and I expect you will not get a reply. A reasonable one at least.
Posted by: polynikes - Romney supporter at May 25, 2011 11:28 AM (T8iAI)
Posted by: chemjeff at May 25, 2011 11:32 AM (7mSYS)
214
Over time, health care costs become more in line
with what people can actually pay rather than with how much money we can
tax/borrow.
Posted by: Paper
........
That ain't necessarily so. Current trends have shown that that outcomes is more likely not to happen.
The current situation in non-elderly health care and insurance costs reflect this situation exactly.
Employers paying for insurance for their employees are contributing less and less to the health plans, but costs keep rising at alarming rates. The solution has not been that providers have lowered costs. The solution has been that the employee has taken on more and more of the burden of those costs. Higher and higher deductibles and more out-of-pocket costs are being dumped on the consumer to reduce costs of the employer and insurers.
That is simply wishful thinking on your part and Ryan's.
with what people can actually pay rather than with how much money we can
tax/borrow.
Posted by: Paper
........
That ain't necessarily so. Current trends have shown that that outcomes is more likely not to happen.
The current situation in non-elderly health care and insurance costs reflect this situation exactly.
Employers paying for insurance for their employees are contributing less and less to the health plans, but costs keep rising at alarming rates. The solution has not been that providers have lowered costs. The solution has been that the employee has taken on more and more of the burden of those costs. Higher and higher deductibles and more out-of-pocket costs are being dumped on the consumer to reduce costs of the employer and insurers.
That is simply wishful thinking on your part and Ryan's.
Posted by: Chi-Town Jerry at May 25, 2011 11:37 AM (f9c2L)
215
200 #194 Yes, but it still has to be a declining amount of the person's total
health care costs over time or it won't result in any cost control. We
can't miss the bigger picture that decreasing costs = making individuals
pay more out of income. There is no way around this. If we ignore this,
we just set ourselves up to vote on increasing the voucher amounts
every year.
If you mean this as something we should talk about politically, I
completely agree.
Talk about it politically. A properly designed premium support system lowers costs over time, but the key is (obviously) the design. Also, the Rs have some plans and ideas about how to lower costs that they could contrast with Obama's ideas. (Though they should stick with rote facts on this one.) Going on the offensive also means collectively attacking Obama's plan for Medicare. Some Rs have been doing it but it's not enough. They need a PR blitz in which they concentrate on attacking Obama and vaguely outline their plan and why it works. Attack, attack, attack.
health care costs over time or it won't result in any cost control. We
can't miss the bigger picture that decreasing costs = making individuals
pay more out of income. There is no way around this. If we ignore this,
we just set ourselves up to vote on increasing the voucher amounts
every year.
If you mean this as something we should talk about politically, I
completely agree.
Talk about it politically. A properly designed premium support system lowers costs over time, but the key is (obviously) the design. Also, the Rs have some plans and ideas about how to lower costs that they could contrast with Obama's ideas. (Though they should stick with rote facts on this one.) Going on the offensive also means collectively attacking Obama's plan for Medicare. Some Rs have been doing it but it's not enough. They need a PR blitz in which they concentrate on attacking Obama and vaguely outline their plan and why it works. Attack, attack, attack.
Posted by: Miss'80sBaby at May 25, 2011 11:38 AM (CLYmB)
216
#217
I respect that position, but I think it has been true because we can't expect cost decreases for people with greater cost sharing while another group of people receiving care are immune from subsidies. Also, the people immune from cost sharing are the ones receiving the majority of care.
It doesn't matter that the average household has higher out of pocket costs because the entire system is still not subject to income constraints as long as we have a government program where some people are not made to have those constraints. In our health care system, this is Medicare and Medicaid.
If we actually make Medicare and Mediaid recipients subject to these constraints, then costs can go down. I completely agree though that it is madness to expect costs to go down just because 40% of the population rather than 20% sees their out-of-pocket costs increase. It doesn't work halfway.
This is why I said above a half-market, half-socialist system will never bring down costs. It is actually likely to make costs higher than in a market or socialist system.
I respect that position, but I think it has been true because we can't expect cost decreases for people with greater cost sharing while another group of people receiving care are immune from subsidies. Also, the people immune from cost sharing are the ones receiving the majority of care.
It doesn't matter that the average household has higher out of pocket costs because the entire system is still not subject to income constraints as long as we have a government program where some people are not made to have those constraints. In our health care system, this is Medicare and Medicaid.
If we actually make Medicare and Mediaid recipients subject to these constraints, then costs can go down. I completely agree though that it is madness to expect costs to go down just because 40% of the population rather than 20% sees their out-of-pocket costs increase. It doesn't work halfway.
This is why I said above a half-market, half-socialist system will never bring down costs. It is actually likely to make costs higher than in a market or socialist system.
Posted by: Paper at May 25, 2011 11:44 AM (VoSja)
217
Someguy is back to punching down, I see.
Posted by: Damn Sockpuppet at May 25, 2011 11:49 AM (YmPwQ)
218
The costs of medical care will never be market driven as long as the services are subject to a fee schedule set by some government committee or a coalition of private insurers.
Posted by: polynikes - Romney supporter at May 25, 2011 11:54 AM (T8iAI)
219
This is why I said above a half-market,
half-socialist system will never bring down costs. It is actually likely
to make costs higher than in a market or socialist system.
Posted by: Paper
........
I agree. That's where my plan becomes somewhat socialistic - I would prefer a universal catastrophic healthcare fund. Lump all Americans into one big pool - a safety net, if you will. All costs over $10k (or $15k or $20k) in a year come out of the common fund. Gap insurance is downright cheap for younger participants - and they could choose to forego that if they like - i.e self insure - as could many larger companies on their employee's behalf.
This is where you really would see cost savings in real care. HMO's would spring up overnight. Plans could offer cheap gap insurance if patients agree to see a PA at Wal-mart quick care clinic first before going to a full-fledged doctor.. that kinda thing. Plans would be fighting for consumers by getting creative and forming partnerships with providers.
Folks on Medicare would simply get better premium support.
It would be a pseudo-public system, but administered by private enterprise who would be more likely to introduce creative cost-saving measures.
Funding could be done with a 2% payroll tax - that would be the hardest pill to swallow for Republicans.
This is why I said above a half-market,
half-socialist system will never bring down costs. It is actually likely
to make costs higher than in a market or socialist system.
Posted by: Paper
........
I agree. That's where my plan becomes somewhat socialistic - I would prefer a universal catastrophic healthcare fund. Lump all Americans into one big pool - a safety net, if you will. All costs over $10k (or $15k or $20k) in a year come out of the common fund. Gap insurance is downright cheap for younger participants - and they could choose to forego that if they like - i.e self insure - as could many larger companies on their employee's behalf.
This is where you really would see cost savings in real care. HMO's would spring up overnight. Plans could offer cheap gap insurance if patients agree to see a PA at Wal-mart quick care clinic first before going to a full-fledged doctor.. that kinda thing. Plans would be fighting for consumers by getting creative and forming partnerships with providers.
Folks on Medicare would simply get better premium support.
It would be a pseudo-public system, but administered by private enterprise who would be more likely to introduce creative cost-saving measures.
Funding could be done with a 2% payroll tax - that would be the hardest pill to swallow for Republicans.
Posted by: Chi-Town Jerry at May 25, 2011 12:04 PM (f9c2L)
220
#222
I see.I certainly agree that it would be better for cost-control than the current system.
I just don't know how much it would do in controlling overall costs over time. My concern is still that the high-risk poll isheavily subsidizing the most expensive part of the health care system. How would costs for catastrophic care and life-saving emergency care go down in this plan? It doesn't seem like they would because there still would be no effect on demand for this type of care. Your plan would still require some type of bureuacracy determining care within the poolto keep costs from excalating.
Is your argument about health care also about politically viability? If so, I can see where this might be more viable.
I see.I certainly agree that it would be better for cost-control than the current system.
I just don't know how much it would do in controlling overall costs over time. My concern is still that the high-risk poll isheavily subsidizing the most expensive part of the health care system. How would costs for catastrophic care and life-saving emergency care go down in this plan? It doesn't seem like they would because there still would be no effect on demand for this type of care. Your plan would still require some type of bureuacracy determining care within the poolto keep costs from excalating.
Is your argument about health care also about politically viability? If so, I can see where this might be more viable.
Posted by: Paper at May 25, 2011 12:37 PM (VoSja)
221
How would costs for catastrophic care and life-saving emergency care go down in this plan?
......
Reduction of those costs would lag, I think. But the system as a whole would promote a more productive health care delivery system. And, maybe even high-end care would have to have a cost-sharing component to it. Even a 5% co-pay would encourage people to go into a plan that would wave that co-pay, for instance, if you receive all your care at in-plan institutions - i.e. within an HMO.
HMO's are much more efficient because the plan can hire the doctors directly at a salary, rather than paying fee-for-service.
Americans rejected them in the 90's because they are less personal and take some of the decision making out of the patient's hands. But, I think Americans would be more amenable to them now with costs rising as they are. And those that still reject them could still go elsewhere and pay more.
----------
All of these free-market ideas apply to Ryan's plan as well. My big objection to Ryan's plan, however, is it costs much much more. It wastes a ton of money paying for insurance for people that will never use it, or use very little of it.
......
Reduction of those costs would lag, I think. But the system as a whole would promote a more productive health care delivery system. And, maybe even high-end care would have to have a cost-sharing component to it. Even a 5% co-pay would encourage people to go into a plan that would wave that co-pay, for instance, if you receive all your care at in-plan institutions - i.e. within an HMO.
HMO's are much more efficient because the plan can hire the doctors directly at a salary, rather than paying fee-for-service.
Americans rejected them in the 90's because they are less personal and take some of the decision making out of the patient's hands. But, I think Americans would be more amenable to them now with costs rising as they are. And those that still reject them could still go elsewhere and pay more.
----------
All of these free-market ideas apply to Ryan's plan as well. My big objection to Ryan's plan, however, is it costs much much more. It wastes a ton of money paying for insurance for people that will never use it, or use very little of it.
Posted by: Chi-Town Jerry at May 25, 2011 12:57 PM (f9c2L)
222
I tend to look at it a little differently.
When I think of a person paying $10k in an insurance premium, my thought is that this is their share of the total health costs in their risk poll. This is why it doesn't bother me in theory that the majority of people with $10k in 'premium support' don't use $10k worth of care. The majority of people's premium is based on the health care costs of the heavy users in the risk poll.
I don't think focusing on that is as important as focusing on overall health care costs/expenditures.
In your plan, I would just expect there to be innovation in the below $10k of costs or whatever market, and either bureaucratic cost controls in the high risk poll or sprialing costs. If we had the cost controls through government - which we would in your plan with a government program with a 2% payroll tax increase, I'd have no confidence (just as now) that politicians would actually deny care.They would just borrow/continue to increase the tax, and it seems to me that we would be in the same position we are now with a different program.
When I think of a person paying $10k in an insurance premium, my thought is that this is their share of the total health costs in their risk poll. This is why it doesn't bother me in theory that the majority of people with $10k in 'premium support' don't use $10k worth of care. The majority of people's premium is based on the health care costs of the heavy users in the risk poll.
I don't think focusing on that is as important as focusing on overall health care costs/expenditures.
In your plan, I would just expect there to be innovation in the below $10k of costs or whatever market, and either bureaucratic cost controls in the high risk poll or sprialing costs. If we had the cost controls through government - which we would in your plan with a government program with a 2% payroll tax increase, I'd have no confidence (just as now) that politicians would actually deny care.They would just borrow/continue to increase the tax, and it seems to me that we would be in the same position we are now with a different program.
Posted by: Paper at May 25, 2011 01:13 PM (VoSja)
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And that was before I read that he is an avid bow-hunter....
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