May 25, 2005

The truth is that Americans are living in a dream world. Not only do others not share America's self-regard, they no longer aspire to emulate the country's social and economic achievements.Well, yeah, we noticed that. Anti-Americanism goes hand-in-hand with social and economic dysfunction.
The loss of faith in the American Dream goes beyond this swaggering administration and its war in Iraq.Fuck you too, Newsweek.
A President Kerry would have had to confront a similar disaffection, for it grows from the success of something America holds dear: the spread of democracy, free markets and international institutions—globalization, in a word.Yes. Democracy - bad! Free markets - bad! International institutions - well, if you're talking about QUANGOs - the U.N., the World Bank, IMF and suchlike, I'm inclined to grant you that one. But there's a certain irony when Newsweek is saying they hate us because of our freedom. About 8.5 on the Irony Richter Scale, I'd say.
Countries today have dozens of political, economic and social models to choose from.Most of which have been proven not to work.
Anti-Americanism is especially virulent in Europe and Latin America, where countries have established their own distinctive ways—none made in America.That is a bizarrely twisted statement. America didn't invent democracy or free markets, though it did give them some unprecedented guarantees in its Constitution. Since the year that document was signed, France has changed its form of government - not just the ruler or leader, but the very nature of the government itself - twelve times. The made-in-America product seems to be somewhat more reliable than what many European countries have managed, with the exception perhaps of Britain. I won't even mention Latin America.
Futurologist Jeremy Rifkin, in his recent book "The European Dream," hails an emerging European Union based on generous social welfare, cultural diversity and respect for international law—a model that's caught on quickly across the former nations of Eastern Europe and the Baltics.Along with high taxes, high unemployment, low economic growth, negative population growth.
In Asia, the rise of autocratic capitalism in China or Singapore is as much a "model" for development as America's scandal-ridden corporate culture.Yes, who needs civil rights?
Much in American law and society troubles the world these days. Nearly all countries reject the United States' right to bear arms as a quirky and dangerous anachronism.Sadly, this includes my beloved Australia, which is in alignment with the freedoms America espouses in almost every other respect.
They abhor the death penalty and demand broader privacy protections.The death penalty is not, I would think, a key part of the American dream. Hang the bastard, electrocute him, let him sit in jail until he rots - whatever.
Above all, once most foreign systems reach a reasonable level of affluence, they follow the Europeans in treating the provision of adequate social welfare is a basic right.And that is the problem. Adequate social welfare is not a basic right. This is where the UN Declaration on Human Rights also goes off the rails. You guarantee adequate social welfare by taking money from someone and giving it to someone else. That's not a right, that's redistribution. A right is something that someone has unless you forcibly take it away. Freedom of speech. Freedom of assembly. Freedom of religion. The right to own property. The right to bear arms. You can't give any of those to someone, because you're born with them. Welfare payments aren't something that every human is born with; they aren't in any way a right. That doesn't mean they're wrong, or a bad idea, though poorly planned they can (and do) lead to economic disaster. They can be analysed as an investment, as insurance, as a maintenance cost, but they are not a right.
All this, says Bruce Ackerman at Yale University Law School, contributes to the growing sense that American law, once the world standard, has become "provincial."And a growing sense that the rest of the world is nuts.
The United States' refusal to apply the Geneva Conventions to certain terrorist suspectsThe Geneva Conventions specifically state that they do not apply to terrorists. That whole bit about illegal combatants? Straight out of the Geneva Convention. Read Bill Whittle's essay, Sanctuary for an explanation of what the Geneva Convention is designed to protect.
to ratify global human-rights treaties such as the innocuous Convention on the Rights of the ChildI haven't read that, I must admit. Hang on while I do. Right, as I thought. Article 17, state interference in the media. Article 26, conflation of human rights and socialism. Article 27, ditto. Article 28, more of the same. Article 29, wank. Articles 43-45, interfering busybodies. Not bad compared to the Declaration on Human Rights, but ample reason not to ratify - unless you don't intend to uphold the Convention in the first place.
or to endorse the International Criminal CourtThat one has been amply dealt with elsewhere.
(coupled with the abuses at Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo)Yadda yadda.
only reinforces the conviction that America's Constitution and legal system are out of step with the rest of the world.Damn straight, and a good thing too.
The American Dream has always been chiefly economic—a dynamic ideal of free enterprise, free markets and individual opportunity based on merit and mobility.Not as much as it should have been, but essentially true, and even more so in the past three decades.
Certainly the U.S. economy has been extraordinarily productive.Oh, you noticed?
Yes, American per capita income remains among the world's highest.The highest, among major states.
Yet these days there's as much economic dynamism in the newly industrializing economies of Asia, Latin America and even eastern Europe.Two points: First, it's a lot easier to double per-capita GDP from $1000 to $2000 than from $40,000 to $80,000. Second, guess where a lot of the money for that economic growth is coming from? Guess who's buying all those cheap goodies from Chinese factories?
All are growing faster than the United States. At current trends, the Chinese economy will be bigger than America's by 2040.About bleeding time, given that it has four times the population.
Whether those trends will continue is not so much the question.Why the hell not? You are assuming that since China's economy (for example) grew by 9.1% in 2004, that it will sustain that growth rate for another 35 years. Well that's one hell of an assumption.
Better to ask whether the American way is so superior that everyone else should imitate it. And the answer to that, increasingly, is no.Is it, then?
Much has made, for instance, of the differences between the dynamic American model and the purportedly sluggish and overregulated "European model."So it has, and the widening gap in standards of living highlights this. Indeed, Australia now has a higher per-capita GDP than any of the major European states.
Ongoing efforts at European labor-market reform and fiscal cuts are ridiculed.Rightly so, because they are going nowhere.
Why can't these countries be more like Britain, businessmen ask, without the high tax burden, state regulation and restrictions on management that plague Continental economies? Sooner or later, the [conventional wisdom] goes, Europeans will adopt the American model—or perish.Sadly, true.
Yet this is a myth.No it's not.
For much of the postwar period Europe and Japan enjoyed higher growth rates than America.Yeah, big surprise. Postwar Europe and Japan were economic basket cases, utterly destroyed by five years of insanity. And the reconstruction was extensively funded by - guess who?
Airbus recently overtook Boeing in sales of commercial aircraft, and the EU recently surpassed America as China's top trading partner.Yes. So?
This year's ranking of the world's most competitive economies by the World Economic Forum awarded five of the top 10 slots—including No. 1 Finland—to northern European social democracies.On what criteria, pray tell?
Lorenzo Codogno, co-head of European economics at the Bank of America, believes the British, like Europeans elsewhere, "will try their own way to achieve a proper balance."A proper balance is not a problem. Seeing social welfare as a fundamental right is a problem.
Certainly they would never put up with the lack of social protections afforded in the American system.What lack of social protections? Exactly?
Europeans are aware that their systems provide better primary education, more job security and a more generous social net.Better primary education is questionable. More job security is only accurate in that once a company has hired someone, it is almost impossible to get rid of them. That makes companies reluctant to hire, and that leads to unemployment. Have you looked at European unemployment figures lately?
They are willing to pay higher taxes and submit to regulation in order to bolster their quality of life.They do not seem to be getting a very good return on their investment. Productivity throughout Europe, measured in per-capita GDP, is significantly lower than in America and growing more slowly. That means that no matter how you redistribute the pie, no matter where you decide is the proper balance, there's less pie to hand around.
Americans work far longer hours than Europeans do, for instance.True
But they are not necessarily more productivePer capita, or per hour? Per capita, they clearly are far more productive. The statistics are perfectly clear; America's per-capita GDP is one-third or more higher than any of the major European nations.
—nor happierSays who?
buried as they are in household debtCompared to?
without the time (or money)They have more money than the Europeans, dumbass. We've already established that.
available to Europeans for vacationYes. Europeans can take their summer holidays - while the elderly die in their thousands because they don't have air conditioning. But hey, they chose their proper balance.
and international travel.For most Europeans, that's a two-hour drive.
George Monbiot, a British public intellectual, speaks for many when he says, "The American model has become an American nightmare rather than an American dream."Another piercing insight there from Monbiot.
Just look at booming bri-tain.I'm so glad Newsweek has editors.
Instead of cutting social welfare, Tony Blair's Labour government has expanded it. According to London's Centre for Policy Studies, public spending in Britain represented 43 percent of GDP in 2003, a figure closer to the Eurozone average than to the American share of 35 percent. It's still on the rise—some 10 percent annually over the past three yearsHoly crap.
—at the same time that social welfare is being reformed to deliver services more efficiently.And guess what? Britain's economy has consistently achieved lower growth than America's. Britain's per-capita GDP is only three-quarters of America's, and the gap is growing. Because taking people's pie away and shuffling it about doesn't create any more pie. America is about making pie. Europe is about cutting the pie into ever-finer slices, and deciding who gets what based on an increasingly arbitrary set of rules.
The inspiration, says Giddens, comes not from America, but from social-democratic Sweden, where universal child care, education and health care have been proved to increase social mobility, opportunity and, ultimately, economic productivity.Per-capita GDP of Sweden is 30% lower than America, and growing more slowly.
In the United States, inequality once seemed tolerable because America was the land of equal opportunity. But this is no longer so. Two decades ago, a U.S. CEO earned 39 times the average worker; today he pulls in 1,000 times as much.Two decades ago, the restructuring of U.S. industry was just beginning, and a CEO still had little to do and little at risk. That's changed. Since then, the rich have been getting richer, and the poor have been getting... richer too. The rich have been getting richer faster than the poor have, but I'm not at all convinced that that is a problem.
Cross-national studies show that America has recently become a relatively difficult country for poorer people to get ahead. Monbiot summarizes the scientific data: "In Sweden, you are three times more likely to rise out of the economic class into which you were born than you are in the U.S."Two points here. Maybe three. First, poverty in the U.S. is something that most countries in the world even today would not recognise as anything of the sort. Second, Sweden has economic classes? Isn't that illegal or something. Third, no-one ever said it should be easy to "rise out of the economic class into which you were born". It's a bit of a mouthful, anyway. What's immportant is that everyone has the opportunity, that there are no artificial barriers put in the way. I can't take any more of this. It just goes on and on in the same noxious, factually-challenged way. You want to know why people don't like America? I suggest that Newsweek has something to do with it. Oh, one last quote. Unfortunately, the only appropriate response to this bit is strange choking noises:
When the soviets withdrew from Central Europe, U.S. constitutional experts rushed in. They got a polite hearing, and were sent home. Jiri Pehe, adviser to former president Vaclav Havel, recalls the Czechs' firm decision to adopt a European-style parliamentary system with strict limits on campaigning. "For Europeans, money talks too much in American democracy. It's very prone to certain kinds of corruption, or at least influence from powerful lobbies," he says. "Europeans would not want to follow that route."Glrrk. Rrrrrgh. Glfffk. (Via The Anchoress) Update: Tuning Spork takes up the sledgehammer and gives Newsweek a few more whacks. One point he raises is interesting; he says
This is something I considered but forgot to raise myself. The American Dream (and the Australian Dream likewise) is fundamentally different from the European Dream. The American Dream is a goal, it is something that Americans think can be accomplished through determination and hard work. It is, as Spork says, the future. The European Dream on the other hand is a substitute for reality, a projection of lost glory; it is the past. France is probably the most notorious and noxious example of this, but the European Dream is widespread and pernicious.The truth is that Americans are living in a dream world.It's called "the future", thank you.
Posted by: Pixy Misa at 05:12 PM | Comments (28) | Add Comment | Trackbacks (Suck)
Posted by: Susie at May 26, 2005 02:37 AM (V1YvO)
Adequate social welfare is not a basic right. This is where the UN Declaration on Human Rights also goes off the rails. You guarantee adequate social welfare by taking money from someone and giving it to someone else. That's not a right, that's redistribution.
A right is something that someone has unless you forcibly take it away. Freedom of speech. Freedom of assembly. Freedom of religion. The right to own property. The right to bear arms. You can't give any of those to someone, because you're born with them.
Welfare payments aren't something that every human is born with; they aren't in any way a right. That doesn't mean they're wrong, or a bad idea, though poorly planned they can (and do) lead to economic disaster. They can be analysed as an investment, as insurance, as a maintenance cost, but they are not a right.
There's a debate going on now about whether people have positive rights (things the gov't must do for you) as well as negative rights (things the gov't cannot do to you).
The idea you have a right to someone else's money because they're wealthy and you're not is just ridiculous on its face, not to mention counterproductive to growing an economy and encouraging technological innovation -- the means by which the poorest have benefitted the most in the past 50 years.
Posted by: TallDave at May 26, 2005 03:10 AM (9XE6n)
Posted by: TallDave at May 26, 2005 03:16 AM (9XE6n)
In the 19th and 20th centuries, countries around the world copied the [US Constitution], not least in Latin America. So did Germany and Japan after World War II.
LOL yeah, that's one way to look at it.
Posted by: TallDave at May 26, 2005 03:21 AM (9XE6n)
Posted by: Patriot Xeno at May 26, 2005 04:31 AM (SXM2F)
I was going to comment on a highlight or two, but there are too many.
Posted by: Tuning Spork at May 26, 2005 12:04 PM (H8zUe)
Posted by: Tuning Spork at May 26, 2005 12:08 PM (H8zUe)
Posted by: Pixy Misa at May 26, 2005 02:13 PM (AIaDY)
Posted by: JohnL at May 26, 2005 02:34 PM (gplif)
http://homepage.mac.com/rmshultz/iblog/B1585135201/C1781142294/E1587100592/
Posted by: IR at May 27, 2005 07:45 AM (L0vfw)
I've thought for a long time that quite a few anti-American ideas and images come, when you track them down to their source, from Americans, and stuff like this and the Newsweek-Japan cover showing the American flag as trash only tends to reinforce that conclusion.
Posted by: jaed at May 27, 2005 09:39 AM (Wz8D0)
Posted by: Mike Beversluis at May 28, 2005 03:49 PM (WoKYG)
Posted by: Andyuts Naraku at May 28, 2005 04:18 PM (lQXxh)
In other words, she has absolutely no idea just how high the cost of living is in Norway. Their GDP is nearly the same as America, but the country's welfare structure cuts their real buying power in half - and that's being generous.
Posted by: Pixy Misa at May 28, 2005 05:26 PM (+S1Ft)
But, the polls don't lie, because Americans are now hip to all Bush's lies. And, I will take issue with at least one of your distortions.
When the Newsweek writer claims '...the truth is Americans are living in a dream world', their point has nothing to do with the notion of the 'American Dream'.
Since 9/11, Americans have further isolated themselves from the rest of the world, choosing to believe the lies of this administration fed through a cowering media. And, they ignored much of the abuses of their own government, justified as the 'war on terrorism'.
And, calling this administration on it, is the purest form of patriotism.
Posted by: that colored fella at May 29, 2005 06:34 PM (IXyBV)
The reason why blah blah blah damage resulting from blah blah
What damage?
Blah blah hip to all Bush's lies.
What lies?
Show me one. Just one lie. Go on.
But it has to be something he actually said. And it has to be a lie. A truth you don't like doesn't count. An opinion doesn't count. An error doesn't count.
You claim that Bush lied. SHOW ME.
And note: This is not a new challenge. It's been issued before. A number of people have taken it up. And no-one has ever been able to show that President Bush has lied about anything.
Since 9/11, Americans have further isolated themselves from the rest of the world, choosing to believe the lies of this administration fed through a cowering media.
First, anti-Americanism was a global industry long before this administration. President Clinton chose to play up to the anti-Americans. President Bush and his team told them to go fuck themselves.
France has never been a friend of America. Or of anyone else.
Second, what lies? Name one.
Third, "cowering media"? The same media that runs a 24x7 slime-the-administration rally? That media?
And, they ignored much of the abuses of their own government, justified as the 'war on terrorism'.
What abuses? Name them. What did they ignore? Abu Ghraib? That's had more press coverage than the entire rest of the liberation of Iraq put together.
And, calling this administration on it, is the purest form of patriotism.
It might be patriotic if any of it were true. But none of it is. Read what I have just said. READ IT. Nothing Newsweek says is factual. Some of it is uninformed opinion, some of it is just not true at all.
I'd be interested in seeing what it takes to get through to someone like you, because as far as I can see, nothing does.
Posted by: Pixy Misa at May 29, 2005 08:41 PM (+S1Ft)
Posted by: GaijinBiker at May 30, 2005 02:05 PM (zydfd)
U.S. GDP per capita is $39,638
Sweden GDP per capita $38,444
Ambient Irony repeatedly states that U.S. GDP per capita that is ``more than 30 percent higher than any European countries'' as evidence that its economic program is better than Europe's.
Now that we know that isn't true, will Ambient Irony admit that his analysis is wrong? Or will he simply change tack and say that GDP per capita doesn't matter as much as some other measures? Let's hope he's got the intellectual integrity to admit that the U.S. economy is roughly on par with Europe's in most objective measures of performance.
In the entire Eurozone, which includes laggards like Portugal and Greece, GDP per capita comes to $32,379, about 20 percent less than the U.S.
Will be interesting to see whether facts or ideology drive AmbientIrony's opinions...
Sweden's 2004 GDP $346 billion
source: Bloomberg
population: 9 million
source: Sweden statistics bureau
U.S. 2004 GDP $11.7 trillion
source: Bloomberg
population: 296 billion
source: http://www.census.gov/
Posted by: bunkerbuster at May 30, 2005 04:00 PM (HMqne)
The CIA Factbook has the following explanation for its GDP numbers:In the Economy category, GDP dollar estimates for all countries are derived from purchasing power parity (PPP) calculations rather than from conversions at official currency exchange rates. The PPP method involves the use of standardized international dollar price weights, which are applied to the quantities of final goods and services produced in a given economy. The data derived from the PPP method provide the best available starting point for comparisons of economic strength and well-being between countries. The division of a GDP estimate in domestic currency by the corresponding PPP estimate in dollars gives the PPP conversion rate. Whereas PPP estimates for OECD countries are quite reliable, PPP estimates for developing countries are often rough approximations. Most of the GDP estimates are based on extrapolation of PPP numbers published by the UN International Comparison Program (UNICP) and by Professors Robert Summers and Alan Heston of the University of Pennsylvania and their colleagues. In contrast, the currency exchange rate method involves a variety of international and domestic financial forces that often have little relation to domestic output. In developing countries with weak currencies the exchange rate estimate of GDP in dollars is typically one-fourth to one-half the PPP estimate. Furthermore, exchange rates may suddenly go up or down by 10% or more because of market forces or official fiat whereas real output has remained unchanged. On 12 January 1994, for example, the 14 countries of the African Financial Community (whose currencies are tied to the French franc) devalued their currencies by 50%. This move, of course, did not cut the real output of these countries by half. One important caution: the proportion of, say, defense expenditures as a percentage of GDP in local currency accounts may differ substantially from the proportion when GDP accounts are expressed in PPP terms, as, for example, when an observer tries to estimate the dollar level of Russian or Japanese military expenditures. Note: the numbers for GDP and other economic data cannot be chained together from successive volumes of the Factbook because of changes in the US dollar measuring rod, revisions of data by statistical agencies, use of new or different sources of information, and changes in national statistical methods and practices.If the Euro (or some other currency) rises against the US Dollar, that increases the naively converted GDP proportionally, but doesn't increase the actual production or productivity at all - though it does make goods imported from America cheaper. (And exports commensurately dearer - that's the double-edged sword of exchange rates. Either edge can cut your head off if you're not careful.)
I'd be interested in seeing a more detailed source of information, with both raw and adjusted figures, and details of exactly how the adjustments were applied.
Will be interesting to see whether facts or ideology drive AmbientIrony's opinions...
Sigh. You don't pay any attention at all, do you?
Posted by: Pixy Misa at May 30, 2005 04:22 PM (AIaDY)
I'm the first to agree that comparing the economies of two countries or regions or systems isn't as simple as who has the biggest and fastest growing GDP. Nevertheless, how about a little more intellectual integrity? Instead of leaving out Norway and trimming the statistics up to suit your case, how about suiting your case to match the statistics?
Posted by: bunkerbuster at May 30, 2005 07:00 PM (oyo71)
Because Norway's economy is in no way comparable to America's. It is heavily dependent on oil exports, and it has a tiny population (about one seventieth of the U.S.)
Moreover, what about euro-wide figures?
What about them? Norway has a healthy GDP per capita but a small GDP in absolute terms. Smaller in fact than your "laggards" Portugal and Greece.
When you add it into the mix with larger (in terms of population and overall production) countries like France, Germany, Italy, Spain and Britain, the contribution made by its higher per-capita GDP is insignificant.
Whether you include or exclude Norway, the difference in the Euro-wide figure is about $100.
I also didn't mention nations like Luxembourg, Liechtenstein and Monaco. But sure, include them in the Euro-wide figures, because they don't even make a blip.
Nevertheless, how about a little more intellectual integrity? Instead of leaving out Norway and trimming the statistics up to suit your case, how about suiting your case to match the statistics?
Norway makes no difference. Work the numbers yourself. Norway just isn't big enough to matter.
Besides which, the article didn't mention Norway. It did mention Sweden and Britain. It didn't metion San Marino or Andorra or Albania, and I didn't bring any of those up either.
You seem awfully quick to accuse people of being intellectually dishonest, when it is clear that you haven't given any serious thought to the subject at all. If I wasn't so thoroughly inured to that crap I might be offended.
Posted by: Pixy Misa at May 30, 2005 09:36 PM (+S1Ft)
Do you disagree as a factual matter either with (i) the perception abroad of a slipping US lead, coupled with rising disenchantment with/active opposition to US policies, especially post-9/11 or (ii) the long decline in our relative economic dominance post-WWII as Asia, Europe and Latin America grow? What does the CIA Factbook or other statistics tell you about the changes in the share of the US in the global economy from 1935 to 2005? If these are indeed trends, is there a reason to be alarmed about either of them? Should we not be concerned with the antipathy towards the US in the rest of the world?
Do you see no trade-offs as the US spends huge sums (a signifcant amount borrowed against sharply cut federal revenues) on the military (including extravagant boondoggles such as missile defense, unsettling technologies such as tactical nukes, and nation-building in Iraq), while other countries are investing directly in productive industry? It is more than simply disappointing that our invasion of Iraq has drawn no where near the level of burden-sharing that the US was able to secure in the cases of the first Gulf War and the action against Serbia.
Reflexive self-justification and denial are understandable, but do not help us to deal with real problems. The US is facing a critical task to stem and reverse the serious decline in relative power that the US is now experiencing as investment and power flow to the growing economies of Asia, Europe and Latin America, as the Newsweek article points out so well. Our place in the world will soon be much diminished, and we refuse to get our own house in order - enormous budget and trade deficits, declining technical and science skills, a frayed social support network, accelerating disparities in wealth (see David Brooke`s op-ed in today`s Times), you name it. We face a growing dependence on imported oil but have no cogent energy policy (which should include pricing to cover defense and environmental costs). What a mess we are handing off to our children, who will have to foot the bills and the poorer America that we seem to be willing to settle for! Many global issues cry out for US leadership, but we refuse to accept that mantle in favor of unilateralism.
The Adminstration, Congress and big business are fiddling while Rome burns (see Tom Friedman’s op-ed in Friday’s Times (http://www.nytimes.com/2005/05/25/opinion/25friedman.html?th&emc=th). It is a real disappointment that the Republican party is not making a serious attempt to revitalize and strengthen the US economy, but is instead sapping our competitiveness with outrageously irresponsible budget deficits (in which the roles of tax cuts and our grossly expanded and unfunded military budget must be acknowledged).
While responsible for what still is the largest economy and most important country in the world, the Administration seems to be doing all it can to make sure that voters don't hear any bad news. While there may well be room to criticize the Newsweek piece, it is unfortunate that the blog discussion has ignored the real substantive issues raised by the article, but focussed instead on perceived slights to the flag and the “motives†of Newsweek. While I fault Newsweek for selling America short by deciding not to run the piece in the US, sadly this decision seems to reflect ironically one point of the article - that in fact most of Newsweek US readers would rather hear about the Oscars, than to be forced to face unpleasant facts about our declining global position. But then I suppose it is too much to expect, if our Administration, Congress and business leaders are not willing to talk about serious issues, that our press would show it has real balls.
Can we have a real discussion of our slipping economic position, or do we all find it easier to shoot the messenger? I look forward to some enlightenment.
Posted by: Tokyo Tom at May 31, 2005 01:11 AM (gwPxg)
But please: I do not shoot the messenger. No messenger-shooting here! I'm an engineer; I care about facts. I build my opinions based on facts; if my facts are wrong, I want to know because that means I'm getting the wrong answer.
Anyway, I'll respond; your comment is worth another full length post, I think. (Unlike, sadly, every other commenter who has disagreed with this post.)
Posted by: Pixy Misa at May 31, 2005 01:24 AM (+S1Ft)
And...I take your point that I should not have been so quick to assail your intellectual integrity. I apologize for that, it was a waste of everyone's time. Will you agree, then, that you should not be so bombastically hypocritical in assailing the Newsweek's integrity? You even question their patriotism in the petulant headline: "Now can we question their patriotism." Engineer and facts?? Hardly. Why is your screed 90 percent expletives, epithets and contumely? Why not leave that stuff out if your truly a fact-seeker? I have no idea what you're all about as a person, but your post on Newsweek is all about chauvanist resentment, nationalist self-esteem maintanence and received wisdom, not facts.
Posted by: bunkerbuster at May 31, 2005 11:36 AM (HMqne)
Yes, I realise that. But as I pointed out, Norway is irrelevant. The article mentioned Britain and Sweden specifically; it didn't mention Norway, and neither did I. I concentrated on the major European states because the minor ones are often special cases, and because they are minor. Citing Norway's per-capita GDP without an examination of the factors contributing to it would be an error equivalent to citing San Francisco housing prices and assuming that they are representative of something wider.
I take your point that I should not have been so quick to assail your intellectual integrity. I apologize for that, it was a waste of everyone's time.
Thanks. I accept that. Asking about Norway is a valid point, and comparing the different economic figures from Bloomberg and the CIA Factboook is instructive. We got off on the wrong foot there, I hope we can be more constructive in the future. I apologise in turn for calling you names (I did call you names, didn't I? Well, I cast aspersions at least. Sorry - if you are willing to stick to the point.)
You even question their patriotism in the petulant headline: "Now can we question their patriotism."
The headline is a riff on protestations of patriotism and complaints of said patriotism being questioned. It would have been more apropos for a post dealing with Democrat politicians, but it's not too far off given the anti-American spin of the Newsweek article - in an international edition of an American magazine.
I realise you're new here, so I'll point out that all of my post titles are references to something, and when I can manage it, references to several somethings.
Why is your screed 90 percent expletives, epithets and contumely?
It isn't.
There's one - count them - one expletive, and that in response to the most brazen anti-Americanism. Well, two if you count "wank", I could have said "self-gratification".
Why not leave that stuff out if your truly a fact-seeker?
Because this is not a scholarly article rebutting another scholarly article. This is an attempt to introduce some facts into a fact-free (and indeed counterfactual) argument. Engineers are allowed to yell at idiots; we're just not allowed to make stuff up. (We're even allowed to get things wrong; we just have to admit it when we are shown to be wrong.)
I have no idea what you're all about as a person, but your post on Newsweek is all about chauvanist resentment, nationalist self-esteem maintanence and received wisdom, not facts.
No.
You have that entirely backwards.
The Newsweek article presents no hard facts at all, and makes assertions that are blatant nonsense. The Newsweek article is all about chauvinist resentment and such crap.
I presented information on relative economic productivity and growth, reasons why there have been periods of higher growth in Europe and Japan, an instructive reminder of the stability of American and European political systems (I'll post more on this), a rebuttal of Newsweek's point on the Geneva Convention. I wasn't polite about it, but I don't have to be. And all of that was firmly grounded in fact. The only fact in Newsweek's piece is the fact of the resentment.
You don't like it? Address my points in turn. You have addressed a couple of points, and I've responded. (Showing, so far, that I was right. But if you have further data, by all means present it.)
That is constructive and I'm happy to continue on that course. Not ad infinitum, at least not here in these comments, but I could set up a forum or something if people were interested in continuing the discussion.
Posted by: Pixy Misa at May 31, 2005 12:23 PM (AIaDY)
No Pixy,
This and my original comment post will suffice for my interaction with you, knowing from experience characters like you on the Right are an exercise in unpleasant futility.
All I can accomplish here is calling you out as a hysterical distortionist, knowing also, that sticking around to prove it assumes you have honest respect for opposing viewpoints.
So, in the words of Bush #41 - 'not gunna do it!'
Posted by: that colored fella at June 01, 2005 04:37 PM (bJXS2)
I'm not on the right. Sorry.
All I can accomplish here is calling you out as a hysterical distortionist, knowing also, that sticking around to prove it assumes you have honest respect for opposing viewpoints.
You can call me out all you like, but since the facts are on my side, all this shows is that you are - as I said - crazy.
Again, sorry.
Tokyo Tom asked relevant questions. Even though he seems to disagree with me, we can discuss the issue.
Bunkerbuster and I got off on the wrong foot, but even then he raised some worthwhile points, and we have mutually apologised and we may be able to proceed in some constructive way.
You just showed up and ranted at me. Nothing relevant to the question, no facts, just libel. You lose. You will always lose, as long as you follow those tactics.
Posted by: Pixy Misa at June 01, 2005 04:51 PM (AIaDY)
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