Good Grief....
I just spent almost an hour making my Dad go balder than he already is discussing this shit.
I must just be some kinda nut. I dunno. I'm still of the opinion that our guys are our guys and we do NOT prosecute them for doing whatever it takes to get what they can outta these chucklefucks. THEN, something tells me to check my email and I find Dan, Snow, Rei and Sam have replied. Thank you one and all.
Snow... No harm. No foul. Please, by all means feel free to disagree. God Himself knows, as well as I do, that I'm not always right. In fact, when it comes to politics, I'm usually wrong. Intellectually, I understand that I am this time too, but... I still feel the same as I did before. I'll get to that in a minute. I just wanted to give you a hug and make sure you know disagreeing with me is far from a bad thing... lol.
He's of the opinion (conviction, really) that those guys were wrong to do what they did to the prisoners. Fine. So are a lot of people. I'm not one of them, that's all.
Two things he said only deepened my resolve that, sometimes, this is EXACTLY what needs to done to some people to get a point across. First off, he said that Iraq and a few other places like that haven't even signed the Geneva Conventions. Great. Soooo... we're playing by rules the other side hasn't even seen, nor would they care about anyway. Kinda makes the "rules" a moot point, then, doesn't it? Again with the pro boxing rules at a street fight. Brilliant. Then, he said it was wrong because "Ya just don't do that. We, the United States, don't do that. We're better than that. We take the moral high ground." Siiiigh. (Pardon me whilst I bang my head on this desk for a few, okay?) Gawd Almighty. We are taking the 'moral high ground' with people who have no morals to begin with, are we not? We are also playing by what amount to non-existant rules. If they don't have to follow the "rules" then we shouldn't either. If we have to, then so should they. If only one of the two combatants is following rules, he's gonna lose. Eons ago, when I was a kid in school, if a bully didn't just stop fuckin' with ya, the only thing you could do was beat his ass righteously to make him stop. This was, of course, before Columbine and being able to sue the pricks. Sometimes, you just had to give tit for tat, to make the idiot understand. Some people will never just back off because you're nice about shit. SOME PEOPLE will exploit that which they see as a weakness, which I'm certain those BinLaden-following fucks do. They see our 'rule following' as pacifism, or pussy-ism, no doubt. If I was BinLaden, I'd be heartened by this shit. "Lookit! They not only don't respond IMMEDIATELY when we murder 3000+ innocent people for no earthly reason, they even punish themselves for embarrassing us. Wonderful!!! I don't need to do a thing. I can just sit here and watch them destroy themselves, playing by the 'rules'... cool." "We just don't do that." Well, why NOT, fer fucks sake? They do. It's not as if we're roundhouse punching them back for every one of the roundhouseS they've dealt us. We didn't beat 'em down from the first indiscretion on their part. We've been eatin' their shit for decades. Always looking the other way. Always letting shit slide.
Every time we've done that, they've come back harder. Does the "moral high ground" seem to be working? Not to me, it doesn't. Now, the fact that it was MP's, not interrogators, doing this shit did make me pause... for about a second. Then, I realized that even this could be useful. Maybe, if the MP's scare enough piss (and vinegar) outta these prisoners, they'll be more forthcoming with info by the time the interrogators come around, no? Maybe they're trying to get a message across... "This is what happens when you ignore our attempts to be "polite" about this shit." Maybe it's just the idea that, when my brother has gone to numerous military funerals already and every day men are being killed, like that Tillman guy, what the hell does humiliation of the perpetrators matter? From what Dad said, the prisoners are all their soldiers. Well... doesn't that mean that these dudes were trying to kill our guys and therefore what they do and don't like doesn't count? And, if there are a few civilians in the mix, well, wasn't it civilians who were bouncing around the streets like Tigger on crack, cheering 9/11?
Again... that exempts them from humanity, in my opinion. HA! Just got another one from Dan. (I love this guy... He makes so much SENSE!!! Very intelligent, well thought out points. He's also much nicer than me. And, here's why...)
I appreciate every point Dan's made... except one lil ol' thang. He says that if what was done, was done ONLY for shits-n-giggles, that's kinda twisted. Okay.
Twisted, yeah, but very understandable. In "The Godfather", when Hagen gets back from California, after talking to Woltz, when he arranged for Khartoum's head to wind up in Woltz's bed, he's apparently telling the Godfather what happened. When you first see Vito's face after Tom finishes the story, the Godfather makes this "Tsk" noise and has a look on his face like "Oh welll... shit happens." Same way I feel about this. Even if what they did was for no more of a reason than entertainment, so what? It was a valid reason to them, the same as it was a valid reason to fly jets into buildings for the other guys. Just because not everybody 'gets it' doesn't make it off limits to do, now does it? Nope. Doesn't for them, shouldn't for us. "We'd be no better than they are if'n we did that..." whine, whine, whine... Puh-leeze. We already ARE better than them. Isn't THAT why we've been eating their shit for so long? If they don't get our 'superiority' by now, they never will, soooo... it's past time to take their little game and play it on THEM for a while. WE can always come back to 'civility', they can't even get there in the first place. We've been patient long enough. We've been too nice for too long. I think THAT, almost more than anything else, is why they had the balls to pull that shit on that September morning. I remember Robin Williams riffing on Khadafy way back when, saying that HE said, "Cross this line, (draws line in the sand) I keel you." "Cross THIS line (a few feet back), I keel you." "Okay, you cross THIS line, I keel you.", retreating again. "Okay, you come knock on my front door, I don't answer." That's us, now.
They keep pulling shit, we keep shaking our collective fist at them saying "One of these days..." That DAY is here. It was actually here on September 11, 2001. It's now 2004 and we're still dickin' around with these losers? WHY?!?!? "Moral high ground" my ass.
It's past time to beat these motherfuckers into the ground, where they belong, by any means necessary. Dad also mentioned something about our allies and our "moral high ground" and how they go together. Uh-huh.
Did we, or did we NOT have problems getting anyone to agree to this war-shit in the first place? We did.
Well, here's a thought...
Maybe, juuust maybe, if we were seen as a force to be reckoned with, instead of a bunch of overly-polite, rule following FOOLS who prosecute their own military, more people, countries, would have more respect and more conviction to help us next time, and there WILL be a next time at this rate. Maybe if we just said "Okay, enough with this shit." and ended it, for good, the next time some fucknozzle got a bug up his ass about us, or one of our allies, we really could all band together and eradicate the scourge. We didn't become what we once were, a country ya just don't fuck with, by being pansies. We did it by not giving shit, not taking shit, not being in the shit business. We have to get back to that to win this one. Maybe the rest of the world would respect us again, if we did that. I know I would.
Comments
1
Welcome to Email City...
Your dad made many of the same points I did, but with different reasoning it seems. I know the frustration you feel with the seeming impotency of the reaction to the soldiers acting out in humiliating the prisoners. But I think I reasoned those out for you enough (long-windedly enough too) in the email. Lord knows that what wrath we have brought upon those who have decided we are the people to be destroyed in the world is not enough at present. The terrorism must be stamped out like you do weeds and insect infestations in gardend before they destroy the whole crop. I have absolutely no bias against the arabian people as a whole, but those bastards that enjoy killing and destroying america do indeed deserve the treatment dished to said weeds and insects.
Psiwarfare is an old game, and we must continue to
use it to its end. The stakes are just too high for our country for us not to get into the mud with them and make them chew on their own filth. If we do not go the extra mile, all those people that have died in the middle east, and all those people who died in a field in Pennsylvania, in the Pentagon and in the towers, some of whom were friends of mine, are for naught.
The outrage that is being felt, i believe, is that not enough of that humiliation is being done, not too much. At least most of the people that I've spoken to over the last few days.
At the same time, America should stand for more than that, ultimately, our way of life is the biggest testament as to why indeed we should overcome these events in time. After all, here we can write about what our country does, disagree in a public forum such as this without fear of retribution - something that was not possible in Iraw, until we began walking the line there.
"God" Bless America...My Home Sweet Home.
Siempre
Rei
Your dad made many of the same points I did, but with different reasoning it seems. I know the frustration you feel with the seeming impotency of the reaction to the soldiers acting out in humiliating the prisoners. But I think I reasoned those out for you enough (long-windedly enough too) in the email. Lord knows that what wrath we have brought upon those who have decided we are the people to be destroyed in the world is not enough at present. The terrorism must be stamped out like you do weeds and insect infestations in gardend before they destroy the whole crop. I have absolutely no bias against the arabian people as a whole, but those bastards that enjoy killing and destroying america do indeed deserve the treatment dished to said weeds and insects.
Psiwarfare is an old game, and we must continue to
use it to its end. The stakes are just too high for our country for us not to get into the mud with them and make them chew on their own filth. If we do not go the extra mile, all those people that have died in the middle east, and all those people who died in a field in Pennsylvania, in the Pentagon and in the towers, some of whom were friends of mine, are for naught.
The outrage that is being felt, i believe, is that not enough of that humiliation is being done, not too much. At least most of the people that I've spoken to over the last few days.
At the same time, America should stand for more than that, ultimately, our way of life is the biggest testament as to why indeed we should overcome these events in time. After all, here we can write about what our country does, disagree in a public forum such as this without fear of retribution - something that was not possible in Iraw, until we began walking the line there.
"God" Bless America...My Home Sweet Home.
Siempre
Rei
Posted by: Rei at May 06, 2004 06:42 PM (UEv1X)
2
By The Way - My hair couldn't be better.... as frustrating as this whole situation is... and as much as I have raked my hair between my fingers it's holding up just fine.
Hooray for Pantene Pro!
Siempre,
Rei
Hooray for Pantene Pro!
Siempre,
Rei
Posted by: Rei at May 06, 2004 07:15 PM (UEv1X)
3
Well, thank God for that, at least. (lol) One bald man to my 'credit' is plenty.
Posted by: Stevie at May 07, 2004 12:45 AM (MxLEu)
4
I don't care about the Geneva convention or even about the outrage of a whole nation of ragheads. What I do care about is the fact the these soldiers willfully violated Army requlations, were stupid enough to take pictures of it and the chain of command chose to ignore it. These shitheads and their commanders made even harder to deal with a situation that is almost impossible to deal with now. Other soldiers will die because of this, some raghead will declare another holy war and more americans will die, and this will be the rally point. These soldiers violated a trust, and Army regulations, they deserve what ever happens to them and so does the chain of command that let it happen. We learned this lesson in Viet-Nam and countless other wars. I speak from 30 years of service in the Army.
Posted by: James Old Guy at May 07, 2004 12:55 PM (s5wS/)
5
Just because I have a few less hairs than I did forty years ago, you don't hafta tell every body I'm bald! (and fat, and old..) I compliment another old guy (James) for his perfectly well-written comments. I spent three years in the Army,
intercepting communist-country messages from the
little town of Bad Aibling. (You've been there,
Stevie) Everything we did was top secret (though
quite mundane.) When we went to Salzburg on
pass, I discovered that many people, prostitutes,
bartenders, taxi drivers, knew exactly what we did, who our company commader was, what we had to
eat last Tuesday, etc. It's enought to piss you
off that many people would violate secrecy by letting little things slip when talking to
strangers. I considered this a terrible thing.
(Naive farm kid..) But, as James says, this violation of regulations, especially in a combat
zone is inexcusable! And, pictures!
intercepting communist-country messages from the
little town of Bad Aibling. (You've been there,
Stevie) Everything we did was top secret (though
quite mundane.) When we went to Salzburg on
pass, I discovered that many people, prostitutes,
bartenders, taxi drivers, knew exactly what we did, who our company commader was, what we had to
eat last Tuesday, etc. It's enought to piss you
off that many people would violate secrecy by letting little things slip when talking to
strangers. I considered this a terrible thing.
(Naive farm kid..) But, as James says, this violation of regulations, especially in a combat
zone is inexcusable! And, pictures!
Posted by: haveayen at May 07, 2004 09:55 PM (8+cBB)
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