SonofaBITCH!!!
I friggin' THOUGHT so. I didn't want to believe it, but... Jesus Christ. I was pissed enough this morning thinking that our guys are gonna be prosecuted for bitch-slapping these towelheads. It's really over psychological interrogation techniques?
My aching ass. I saw a picture of some dipshit prisoner wearing a hood and having what looked like a string of Christmas lights hangin' off him, standing on a stool. The caption under the picture said it was a prisoner who had been told that if he fell or stepped offa what he was standing on, he'd die.
I laughed my ass off at that. Thought to myself "Oh cool. We're mind-fuckin' 'em. I love it!" Cracked me up. If they're that stupid... ya know? More power to our guys.
It takes some sophistication, some skill, some BRAINS to be able to do that to people. I, for one, couldn't do it because I'd not be able to quit laughing at these fuckin' moron prisoners. I'd sound like Sam Kinison giggling at his own jokes, screaming at them about shit and giggling at their stupidity at the same time. I doubt it'd be as effective that way.
(Or am I the only one who gets that basic premise? Scary.) Several minutes later...
Okay... now I'm in tears because of my (Marine) brother. This shit goes sooo got-damned deep and is sooo tangled up. I may not make a lot of sense with some of what's gonna wind up comin' out of me, but, bear with me, okay? I'm not stupid, although I am woefully, voluntarily, uninformed about all things political. But I know logic and I recognize sense and I don't see much of either in this shit. Let's just set all the horseshit political aspects aside for a few. I may wind up diving into this cesspool and trying to really figure out and understand, if at all possible, what the hell is going on, but for now, all I care to wanna know is: What, in the name of God, Allah, Budda, Jehovah, Fred-whatever ya wanna call the Guy-is wrong with our fuckin' government, yet again? True, it's been fucked the entire time I've been alive, but fer Christ's sake. They actually want to prosecute our own guys for psychological game playing with MURDERERS?!? Somebody is fucked up and I'm not so sure it's me anymore. Fuck the rest of it for a minute.
I just want to understand this one thing. Our men, our military fighters and die-er's, are to be jailed for using the same techniques, albeit (albethem?) more in depth, that cops use every single day?
What the fuck is that about? How is this even possible? Whose retarded idea is this?
And, even more mystifying to me... How can our men, our military fighters and die-ers, even DO this for a country who'd turn around and do THAT?
This IS exactly like Nam in that our troops have no REAL support from our (Godforsaken, fucking) government, if THIS is the kinda shit the government is gonna pull on 'em. How can they want to risk dying for a country governed by people like that? They are truly amazing. Whether it's in their convictions or insanity, I'm not sure. Once (and if EVER) I understand this one thing, I'll go on to the next. Also, if there is a group anywhere in protest of this shit, this prosecuting of our OWN MEN, I want to join and help save those men. I want to at least let them see that not everybody agrees with this. They're NOT as bad as the terrorists and they ARE right and good and DO deserve people going above and beyond for them, like they do us. If there's not a group, I swear to God Himself, I'm gonna start one. This shit is WRONG. Something HAS to be done.
I wish now, more than ever, that I was rich, with lots of rich friends. I'd start a HUGE defense fund, at the very least. Truth be told, I'd let any one of those guys stay here in this house, if they needed to. I'd love to make 'em dinner and wash their clothes for them and use the Gain-scented Bounce dryer sheets so their clothes would feel and smell good and I'd even let 'em have the remote without a peep. I'm also good at replacing nearly empty beers. With the cap already off, even. THAT'S the kinda stuff that should be being done "to" these guys. And, I'll tell ya another thing... If Bush agrees with this prosecution, which I've read he does, he's a bleeding asshole and there is no defense for supprting him. I couldn't even tell you his political party without guessing, I hate this shit so much, but, whatever he is, if he does this, he should be shot right in the face for the sheer hypocrisy and utter evil it would take to do this to OUR OWN MEN. For anyone to say that they (our guys) are as bad as the terrorists is the most brainless, completely asinine thing I've ever heard. September 11th woulda been one hell of a lot different, had BinLaden only played mind games that day, like our guys are doing.
The way the US is going about this, it's like we're trying to go by professional boxing rules in a street fight. That's an excellent way to get yer ass beat.
Does "knife at a gun fight" ring any bells for anyone?
These insane people are not playing by anyone's rules but their own. They oughta be grateful that all our guys are doing is playing mind games. In all honesty, BinLaden, nor anyone else, needs to worry about taking us down. The government is doing it very effectively for them. And, Rei? I'm ready for Chapter 2. (And, thank you for all the background on this. It is helping.)
Comments
1
OK, Stevie. You know I love you and have loads of respect for you as a human being and as a fellow woman, but I'm going to have to disagree with you on this one.
Governments around the world agreed -- prior to WWII and Hitler's attrocities against people who were "just a bunch of worthless Jews" -- to stick to certain rules of human decency regarding prisoners of war. Those agreements are what keep authorities hunting Nazis 50 years later. And they were "just following orders," like many of our soldiers were in this situation. If a few of those men had stood up and said "this is wrong," would millions of Jews needed to die?
We don't want our boys tortured, so we'd sure as hell better not be torturing theirs either. We're Americans. We're civilized, and we're proud. As a people, I'd like to believe that we're above the sort of butchery and brutality seen in that Iraqi prison. I don't believe that we should train the humanity out of our soldiers the way Hitler did.
Torture of anyone is not ever allowed, nor should it be. That's why there's no limitation on war crimes. As people, regardless of religion or political affiliation, we can't allow others to be treated that way. Those Iraqis are prisoners of war, yes. They're also human beings. You wouldn't let someone treat your dog that way.
So there you have my opinion. Yep, I'm prolly more of a liberal than you are, but this isn't political to me. It's about basic human decency.
Governments around the world agreed -- prior to WWII and Hitler's attrocities against people who were "just a bunch of worthless Jews" -- to stick to certain rules of human decency regarding prisoners of war. Those agreements are what keep authorities hunting Nazis 50 years later. And they were "just following orders," like many of our soldiers were in this situation. If a few of those men had stood up and said "this is wrong," would millions of Jews needed to die?
We don't want our boys tortured, so we'd sure as hell better not be torturing theirs either. We're Americans. We're civilized, and we're proud. As a people, I'd like to believe that we're above the sort of butchery and brutality seen in that Iraqi prison. I don't believe that we should train the humanity out of our soldiers the way Hitler did.
Torture of anyone is not ever allowed, nor should it be. That's why there's no limitation on war crimes. As people, regardless of religion or political affiliation, we can't allow others to be treated that way. Those Iraqis are prisoners of war, yes. They're also human beings. You wouldn't let someone treat your dog that way.
So there you have my opinion. Yep, I'm prolly more of a liberal than you are, but this isn't political to me. It's about basic human decency.
Posted by: snowball at May 06, 2004 02:22 PM (u3M6e)
2
Chapter two is in progress at the moment... I TRIED to post the first one on here but it gave me a shitload(escuseme) of errors and said it wanted to post truncated.. soo I cancelled it and mailed the original to you direct.
In the meantime, prosecuting the soldiers is a two-edged sword and you are feeling both edges at the moment. I will attempt in my second posting to clarify the pros and cons of it and the not so wonderful necessity to have this "problem" rectified. I alluded to it partially at the end of the first message, in that the wide-spread panic and fear of the general public that is instilled by media people. But you will get the idea abit clearer soon.. ALSO - check your mail for a suprise....
Siempre,
Rei
In the meantime, prosecuting the soldiers is a two-edged sword and you are feeling both edges at the moment. I will attempt in my second posting to clarify the pros and cons of it and the not so wonderful necessity to have this "problem" rectified. I alluded to it partially at the end of the first message, in that the wide-spread panic and fear of the general public that is instilled by media people. But you will get the idea abit clearer soon.. ALSO - check your mail for a suprise....
Siempre,
Rei
Posted by: Rei at May 06, 2004 02:28 PM (UEv1X)
3
I would agree with much of what Snowball has to say however I won’t go so far as to describe what happened as “torture”. The photos depict humiliation, that is for sure but not torture.
Torture is gang raping a teenage girl in front of her parents, slowly lowering someone into a wood-chipper, throwing them off a building that’s only high enough to cause injury but not death, ad nausium . . . I could go on. These are all things that occurred under Saddam.
Mind-fucking someone to get information is NOT torture according to the Geneva Conventions. Threatening to kill someone to get information is NOT torture according to the Geneva Conventions. Making someone stand in one spot without sleep for 12 hours in order to break them to give you information is NOT torture according to Geneva Conventions. Talk to any military interrogator and you will realize these are all valid methods of procurement of information from an enemy prisoner of war.
The difference between what I describe above and what is apparently depicted in the photos is that what was depicted in the photos was apparently done by MP’s not interrogators and apparently done for the reason of simple humiliation and not interrogation. What seems to be depicted in the photos is NOT torture according to the Geneva Conventions. What is depicted is what the Geneva Conventions describe as “cruel and inhumane treatment”.
To me, putting someone through what is depicted in the photos simply for humiliation and entertainment seems a bit twisted . . .If that is the case.
People are playing fast and lose with the word “torture” in an attempt to further their political and social agendas hence the feeding frenzy.
Nothing in the photographs released thus far can be described with words like “butchery” or “torture”. Does that mean I condone what took place? No, it doesn’t but lets keep things in perspective.
What I find equally disturbing is the blatant double standards that are at play here. According to doctors who treated Jessica Lynch, she was sodomized while in Iraqi captivity; where was the outrage from the Arab community then? On 9/11 3000 innocent men women and children died at the hands of radical Islamic Arab terrorists; the Arab world danced in the streets and praised Allah. When those people were shot, dragged out of their car, burned, dismembered, and hung on a bridge, they danced and praised Allah; where was the media outrage then?
Right now as we speak there is a huge UN scandal being uncovered where high UN officials and heads of government were taking bribes in the Iraqi oil for food programs. How many Iraqi’s starved because a French official had a money “deal” with Saddam? How many thousands of Iraqi’s were killed and tortured by Saddam because he was kept in power due to UN foot dragging because the powers that be WANTED Saddam to stay in power because they had a nice little money “deal” with him? Now, Sec. General to the UN, Kofi Annan is attempting to stonewall the investigation of this horrendous scandal that caused much more suffering to Iraqi’s than the humiliation some POW’s were subjected to. Where is the outrage?
More food for thought.
Torture is gang raping a teenage girl in front of her parents, slowly lowering someone into a wood-chipper, throwing them off a building that’s only high enough to cause injury but not death, ad nausium . . . I could go on. These are all things that occurred under Saddam.
Mind-fucking someone to get information is NOT torture according to the Geneva Conventions. Threatening to kill someone to get information is NOT torture according to the Geneva Conventions. Making someone stand in one spot without sleep for 12 hours in order to break them to give you information is NOT torture according to Geneva Conventions. Talk to any military interrogator and you will realize these are all valid methods of procurement of information from an enemy prisoner of war.
The difference between what I describe above and what is apparently depicted in the photos is that what was depicted in the photos was apparently done by MP’s not interrogators and apparently done for the reason of simple humiliation and not interrogation. What seems to be depicted in the photos is NOT torture according to the Geneva Conventions. What is depicted is what the Geneva Conventions describe as “cruel and inhumane treatment”.
To me, putting someone through what is depicted in the photos simply for humiliation and entertainment seems a bit twisted . . .If that is the case.
People are playing fast and lose with the word “torture” in an attempt to further their political and social agendas hence the feeding frenzy.
Nothing in the photographs released thus far can be described with words like “butchery” or “torture”. Does that mean I condone what took place? No, it doesn’t but lets keep things in perspective.
What I find equally disturbing is the blatant double standards that are at play here. According to doctors who treated Jessica Lynch, she was sodomized while in Iraqi captivity; where was the outrage from the Arab community then? On 9/11 3000 innocent men women and children died at the hands of radical Islamic Arab terrorists; the Arab world danced in the streets and praised Allah. When those people were shot, dragged out of their car, burned, dismembered, and hung on a bridge, they danced and praised Allah; where was the media outrage then?
Right now as we speak there is a huge UN scandal being uncovered where high UN officials and heads of government were taking bribes in the Iraqi oil for food programs. How many Iraqi’s starved because a French official had a money “deal” with Saddam? How many thousands of Iraqi’s were killed and tortured by Saddam because he was kept in power due to UN foot dragging because the powers that be WANTED Saddam to stay in power because they had a nice little money “deal” with him? Now, Sec. General to the UN, Kofi Annan is attempting to stonewall the investigation of this horrendous scandal that caused much more suffering to Iraqi’s than the humiliation some POW’s were subjected to. Where is the outrage?
More food for thought.
Posted by: Daniel at May 06, 2004 03:07 PM (5gmGM)
4
I agree with some of what everyone has said. But Daniel is absolutly correct:
There is a huge difference between humiliation and torture.
There is a huge difference between humiliation and torture.
Posted by: Sam at May 06, 2004 03:48 PM (xbbHe)
5
"We've done four already, but now we're steady, and then they went... One, Two, Three, Four..."
Singing in the sunshine, laughing in the rain
Hitting on the moonshine, rocking in the grain
Ain't no time to pack my bag, my foots outside the door
Got a date, I can't be late, for the high hopes hailla ball.
Singing to an ocean, I can hear the ocean's roar
Play for free, play for me and play a whole lot more, more!
Singing about good things and the sun that lights the day
I used to sing on the mountains, has the ocean lost it's way.
Sitting round singing songs 'til the night turns into day
Used to sing on the mountains but the mountains washed away
Now I'm singing all my songs to the girl who won my heart
She is only three years old and it's a real fine way to start.
This Message Brought to you By...
---- The Ocean, Houses of the Holy (Led Zeppelin
Now BREATHE....
Singing in the sunshine, laughing in the rain
Hitting on the moonshine, rocking in the grain
Ain't no time to pack my bag, my foots outside the door
Got a date, I can't be late, for the high hopes hailla ball.
Singing to an ocean, I can hear the ocean's roar
Play for free, play for me and play a whole lot more, more!
Singing about good things and the sun that lights the day
I used to sing on the mountains, has the ocean lost it's way.
Sitting round singing songs 'til the night turns into day
Used to sing on the mountains but the mountains washed away
Now I'm singing all my songs to the girl who won my heart
She is only three years old and it's a real fine way to start.
This Message Brought to you By...
---- The Ocean, Houses of the Holy (Led Zeppelin
Now BREATHE....
Posted by: Rei at May 06, 2004 03:51 PM (UEv1X)
6
Have you seen the new rash of pictures? I'll stand by torture and butchery. We're better than to treat others this way. Or at least we should be.
Posted by: snowball at May 06, 2004 04:09 PM (u3M6e)
7
Yep, seen 'em and, no matter what you think, they are not torture according to Geneva Conventions.
We're better than to treat others this way. Or at least we should be.
It depends on the circumstances. For example, Lt Col. Allen West, some time ago, stood by and watched the interrogation of an Iraqi POW in an attempt to get information that was critical to save many, perhaps hundreds, of soldier's lives. When the interrorgation was getting nowhere Lt. Col. West took out his side arm, pointed at the guys head and asked the question--no answer. Next, Lt. Col. West discharged a round next to the guy's head, put the muzzle back between his eyes and repeated the question and indicated that if he didn't get an answer the next one was going home. The POW coughed up the information and lives were saved. Keep in mind that the POW was tied to a chair. That is NOT torture or butchery because it was part of an interragation to get needed information.
The pictures you speak of show no blood-letting, no one is screaming in pain etc. No, not torture, period.
Was it warrented? I don't think so because it seemed to be for the purpose of personal humiliation only.
This is war. The war on terrorism is a war for our lives against people who want to kill us because we don't slap our head off a rug and bray to Allah. Our only recourse is to either fight for our lives or surrender. Do you want to surrender?
War is not pretty. Believe me, there are things that happen that no one ever knows about that would chill your blood. Some of these things need to happen.
When you have a Special Ops interragator getting crucial information from a prisoner they will do things that will make your skin crawl. They will keep a person awake for 24 hours while standing. They will let them lay on a bed and begin to doze off then wake them and make them stand some more. They will tie them to a table in an uncomfortable position and leave them for hours. They will threaten to kill them-- along with many other things to make them uncomfortable. What a good interragator will NOT do is chop off a finger, stick needles under fingernails, rape, etc. THAT is torture. The reason a good interragator does not torture is because it is against Geneva Conventions AND because it produces bad information. Interragators want the truth not something that a prisoner blerts out to make the pain stop.
Tying a prisoner to a bed with women's underwear over his head isn't torture. Putting a leash on a prisoner and handing it to a woman is not torture. It is humiliating, especially so for those in a culture where women are third class citizens, just below that of a street dog.
Now, IF what took place in the photo's was a means to humiliate the prisoners in accordance to thier particular cultural take on females in a bid to squeeze information out of them, than I don't have as big of a problem with it. However, much of what is in the photos, to me, smacks of simple degradation for the sake of degradation and not to interragate. If that is the case than it truly is dispicable but it is not torture according to Geneva Conventions. Period.
We're better than to treat others this way. Or at least we should be.
It depends on the circumstances. For example, Lt Col. Allen West, some time ago, stood by and watched the interrogation of an Iraqi POW in an attempt to get information that was critical to save many, perhaps hundreds, of soldier's lives. When the interrorgation was getting nowhere Lt. Col. West took out his side arm, pointed at the guys head and asked the question--no answer. Next, Lt. Col. West discharged a round next to the guy's head, put the muzzle back between his eyes and repeated the question and indicated that if he didn't get an answer the next one was going home. The POW coughed up the information and lives were saved. Keep in mind that the POW was tied to a chair. That is NOT torture or butchery because it was part of an interragation to get needed information.
The pictures you speak of show no blood-letting, no one is screaming in pain etc. No, not torture, period.
Was it warrented? I don't think so because it seemed to be for the purpose of personal humiliation only.
This is war. The war on terrorism is a war for our lives against people who want to kill us because we don't slap our head off a rug and bray to Allah. Our only recourse is to either fight for our lives or surrender. Do you want to surrender?
War is not pretty. Believe me, there are things that happen that no one ever knows about that would chill your blood. Some of these things need to happen.
When you have a Special Ops interragator getting crucial information from a prisoner they will do things that will make your skin crawl. They will keep a person awake for 24 hours while standing. They will let them lay on a bed and begin to doze off then wake them and make them stand some more. They will tie them to a table in an uncomfortable position and leave them for hours. They will threaten to kill them-- along with many other things to make them uncomfortable. What a good interragator will NOT do is chop off a finger, stick needles under fingernails, rape, etc. THAT is torture. The reason a good interragator does not torture is because it is against Geneva Conventions AND because it produces bad information. Interragators want the truth not something that a prisoner blerts out to make the pain stop.
Tying a prisoner to a bed with women's underwear over his head isn't torture. Putting a leash on a prisoner and handing it to a woman is not torture. It is humiliating, especially so for those in a culture where women are third class citizens, just below that of a street dog.
Now, IF what took place in the photo's was a means to humiliate the prisoners in accordance to thier particular cultural take on females in a bid to squeeze information out of them, than I don't have as big of a problem with it. However, much of what is in the photos, to me, smacks of simple degradation for the sake of degradation and not to interragate. If that is the case than it truly is dispicable but it is not torture according to Geneva Conventions. Period.
Posted by: Daniel at May 06, 2004 04:34 PM (5gmGM)
8
The "use of force, mental torture, threats, insults and exposure to unpleasant and inhumane treatment of any kind" is clearly prohibited by the Geneva Conventions and military law, according to a 1987 edition of FM 34-52, the Army's manual on "intelligence interrogations," and current legal guidelines issued by the Army's intelligence school at Fort Huachucha, Ariz.
Posted by: snowball at May 06, 2004 06:02 PM (u3M6e)
9
Whooops. Posted that before I intended to and am running out of time, but meant to include a quote from the Geneva Conventions:
To this end the following acts are and shall remain prohibited at any time and in any place whatsoever with respect to the above-mentioned persons:
(a) Violence to life and person, in particular murder of all kinds, mutilation, cruel treatment and torture;
(b) Taking of hostages;
(c) Outrages upon personal dignity, in particular, humiliating and degrading treatment;
(d) The passing of sentences and the carrying out of executions without previous judgment pronounced by a regularly constituted court affording all the judicial guarantees which are recognized as indispensable by civilized peoples.
Which means our soldiers are in violation of international law and treaties long established. I expect better behavior from the people defending our country.
To this end the following acts are and shall remain prohibited at any time and in any place whatsoever with respect to the above-mentioned persons:
(a) Violence to life and person, in particular murder of all kinds, mutilation, cruel treatment and torture;
(b) Taking of hostages;
(c) Outrages upon personal dignity, in particular, humiliating and degrading treatment;
(d) The passing of sentences and the carrying out of executions without previous judgment pronounced by a regularly constituted court affording all the judicial guarantees which are recognized as indispensable by civilized peoples.
Which means our soldiers are in violation of international law and treaties long established. I expect better behavior from the people defending our country.
Posted by: snowball at May 06, 2004 06:08 PM (u3M6e)
10
Okay, but...
Those 'people' (and I use that word lightly) haven't even signed the Geneva Conventions. Meaning, it means nothing to them and we can't let it stop us from doing what we have to do to stop them.
(Anymore, anyway.)
Or shouldn't it, at least?
Those 'people' (and I use that word lightly) haven't even signed the Geneva Conventions. Meaning, it means nothing to them and we can't let it stop us from doing what we have to do to stop them.
(Anymore, anyway.)
Or shouldn't it, at least?
Posted by: Stevie at May 06, 2004 06:45 PM (eNkwf)
11
The geneva convention does not apply to them, it applies to us, and as such we are bound to its rules and regulations.
This same problem arose during WW II where the Japanese routinely tortured and executed our soldiers for the hell of it, and we were bound to not do anything similar to them in return.
Siempre,
Rei
This same problem arose during WW II where the Japanese routinely tortured and executed our soldiers for the hell of it, and we were bound to not do anything similar to them in return.
Siempre,
Rei
Posted by: Rei at May 06, 2004 07:38 PM (UEv1X)
12
I didn't say that this was not a violation of the Geneva Conventions. What I did say and which most any Geneva scholor will concur, is that what happened is NOT classified as "torture". "Mental torture" is purposefully left ambiguous for the simple fact that opposing forces need the means to procure information from prisoners. Sorry, asking Abdullah when the next attack is going to be is not going to cut it. Applying a little mental pressure and humiliation to get that info is acceptable under conditions of interragation.
Like I said, the difference is when it's done just for shits and giggles my MP's.
Like I said, the difference is when it's done just for shits and giggles my MP's.
Posted by: Daniel at May 06, 2004 07:52 PM (5gmGM)
13
i don't know if the nytimes is a credible source for you, but the article at
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/05/international/middleeast/05INMA.html
describes what i think most would agree is torture. for those skipping the link, here's a fragment:
Mr. Abd spoke with no particular anger at the American occupation, though he has seen it closer than most Iraqis. In six months in prisons run by American soldiers, in fact, he said most of them had treated him well and with respect.
"Most of the time, they wouldn't even say, `Shut up,' " he said.
That changed in November — he does not know the exact date — when punishment for a prisoner fight at Abu Ghraib degenerated into torture. That night, he said, he and six other inmates were beaten, stripped naked (a particularly deep humiliation in the Arab world), forced to pile on top of one another, to straddle one another's backs naked, to simulate oral sex. American guards wrote words like "rapist" on their skin with Magic Marker, he said.
The curiosity, through much of the ordeal, was the camera. It was a detail he mentioned repeatedly as he recalled being forced against a wall and ordered by the Arabic translator to masturbate as he looked at one of the female guards.
"She was laughing, and she put her hands on her breasts," Mr. Abd said. "Of course, I couldn't do it. I told them that I couldn't, so they beat me in the stomach, and I fell to the ground. The translator said, `Do it! Do it! It's better than being beaten.' I said, `How can I do it?' So I put my hand on my penis, just pretending."
All the while, he said, the flash of the camera kept illuminating the dim room that once held prisoners of Mr. Hussein, recording images that have infuriated the Arab world and badly sullied America's image in a country more willing these days to think the worst of its occupiers.
"It was humiliating," Mr. Abd said in Arabic through an interpreter. "We did not think that we would survive. All of us believed we would be killed and not get out alive."
these prisoners had every reason to assume that such bizarre treatment could only be a prelude to murder. if you personally have never had that moment of finality -- eg, this is not just a rape or a beating, these people, they mean to kill me -- don't you know someone who has? that's why i agree with snowball's use of the word universal. what our soldiers did to these men speaks to a horror which doesn't need translation. if you've so little empathy as tb unable to imagine what they experienced, i don't know, i don't know how or why you'd be motivated to write anything at all.
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/05/international/middleeast/05INMA.html
describes what i think most would agree is torture. for those skipping the link, here's a fragment:
Mr. Abd spoke with no particular anger at the American occupation, though he has seen it closer than most Iraqis. In six months in prisons run by American soldiers, in fact, he said most of them had treated him well and with respect.
"Most of the time, they wouldn't even say, `Shut up,' " he said.
That changed in November — he does not know the exact date — when punishment for a prisoner fight at Abu Ghraib degenerated into torture. That night, he said, he and six other inmates were beaten, stripped naked (a particularly deep humiliation in the Arab world), forced to pile on top of one another, to straddle one another's backs naked, to simulate oral sex. American guards wrote words like "rapist" on their skin with Magic Marker, he said.
The curiosity, through much of the ordeal, was the camera. It was a detail he mentioned repeatedly as he recalled being forced against a wall and ordered by the Arabic translator to masturbate as he looked at one of the female guards.
"She was laughing, and she put her hands on her breasts," Mr. Abd said. "Of course, I couldn't do it. I told them that I couldn't, so they beat me in the stomach, and I fell to the ground. The translator said, `Do it! Do it! It's better than being beaten.' I said, `How can I do it?' So I put my hand on my penis, just pretending."
All the while, he said, the flash of the camera kept illuminating the dim room that once held prisoners of Mr. Hussein, recording images that have infuriated the Arab world and badly sullied America's image in a country more willing these days to think the worst of its occupiers.
"It was humiliating," Mr. Abd said in Arabic through an interpreter. "We did not think that we would survive. All of us believed we would be killed and not get out alive."
these prisoners had every reason to assume that such bizarre treatment could only be a prelude to murder. if you personally have never had that moment of finality -- eg, this is not just a rape or a beating, these people, they mean to kill me -- don't you know someone who has? that's why i agree with snowball's use of the word universal. what our soldiers did to these men speaks to a horror which doesn't need translation. if you've so little empathy as tb unable to imagine what they experienced, i don't know, i don't know how or why you'd be motivated to write anything at all.
Posted by: orionoir at May 06, 2004 09:31 PM (IVEec)
14
if you've so little empathy as tb unable to imagine what they experienced, i don't know, i don't know how or why you'd be motivated to write anything at all.
I never said that I felt no empathy. The point I'm trying to make is that nothing is black and white. I've said all along that what appears to be happening in the photos is, in my opinion, horrible. However, take what happened in the photos, put it in the pretext of actual interragation for the purpose of gaining information and I don't have as big a problem with it. Interragation is suppose to have a purpose other than "fun".
In the pretext of what's presented in the pics: bad.
In the pretext of valid interragation: How else do you get intelligence if you don't cause a little discomfort. I'm not talking about beating, cutting off body parts, slivers under the fingernails...
I never said that I felt no empathy. The point I'm trying to make is that nothing is black and white. I've said all along that what appears to be happening in the photos is, in my opinion, horrible. However, take what happened in the photos, put it in the pretext of actual interragation for the purpose of gaining information and I don't have as big a problem with it. Interragation is suppose to have a purpose other than "fun".
In the pretext of what's presented in the pics: bad.
In the pretext of valid interragation: How else do you get intelligence if you don't cause a little discomfort. I'm not talking about beating, cutting off body parts, slivers under the fingernails...
Posted by: Daniel at May 07, 2004 12:50 AM (HSKoP)
15
We must realize that what seems like silly
shit to us, is grossly humiliating,personally and religiously to Muslims. This is a problem in
(Holy) wars, ie, when combatants are of different
religions. I was in a top secret ( don't be all that impressed) area of the army.(ASA, Army Secutity Agency.) I was aquainted with other
folks with high security clearances, who had more to do with personal contact with 'enemy-type'
people. (this was in '58-'60.) Even without
being completely specific, they spoke of methods
of information gathering that may have been iffy,
even then. But, with the Genevea Convention in mind, anyone who overstepped themselves would never speak of these transgressions, and would never take pictures! (The 'iffy' methods, were
things mentioned in training...none of my friends
had ever had the occasion to use any such methods.
Nobody had any prisoners back then.)
However, I was copying TASS @0530 one morning in 1960, clear text English, just to see what
was new in the old USSR. Usually TASS sent boring
reports of shoe production in some obscure city,
wheat production, tractors rolling off assembly lines,etc. That morning, they had shot down
Gary Powers, and the purple prose was flowing.
We (and the military) expected something major to happen, and we went on full alert, no passes,
no leave time, and the shift that was on their days off were split into thirds and assigned to
each of the shifts that were working. This lasted
for several months until I left for home in June.
There were reports that Powers had been subjected
to 'unusual' interrogation methods...
But, basicaly, no prisoners, no violations.
Of course, in 'Nam, stories were rife about taking
two Viet Cong prisoners up in a chopper. The first was questioned intently, and refused to talk. He was thrown out of the chopper (at several
thousand feet), and the second prisoner was
very much more cooperative.....
We must realize that what seems like silly
shit to us, is grossly humiliating,personally and religiously to Muslims. This is a problem in
(Holy) wars, ie, when combatants are of different
religions. I was in a top secret ( don't be all that impressed) area of the army.(ASA, Army Secutity Agency.) I was aquainted with other
folks with high security clearances, who had more to do with personal contact with 'enemy-type'
people. (this was in '58-'60.) Even without
being completely specific, they spoke of methods
of information gathering that may have been iffy,
even then. But, with the Genevea Convention in mind, anyone who overstepped themselves would never speak of these transgressions, and would never take pictures! (The 'iffy' methods, were
things mentioned in training...none of my friends
had ever had the occasion to use any such methods.
Nobody had any prisoners back then.)
However, I was copying TASS @0530 one morning in 1960, clear text English, just to see what
was new in the old USSR. Usually TASS sent boring
reports of shoe production in some obscure city,
wheat production, tractors rolling off assembly lines,etc. That morning, they had shot down
Gary Powers, and the purple prose was flowing.
We (and the military) expected something major to happen, and we went on full alert, no passes,
no leave time, and the shift that was on their days off were split into thirds and assigned to
each of the shifts that were working. This lasted
for several months until I left for home in June.
There were reports that Powers had been subjected
to 'unusual' interrogation methods...
But, basicaly, no prisoners, no violations.
Of course, in 'Nam, stories were rife about taking
two Viet Cong prisoners up in a chopper. The first was questioned intently, and refused to talk. He was thrown out of the chopper (at several
thousand feet), and the second prisoner was
very much more cooperative.....
Posted by: haveayen at May 07, 2004 10:49 PM (8+cBB)
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