Yes, Obama Was a Muslim
I don't feel this is a big deal by any stretch of the imagination, but a lot of folks in the blogosphere and newsrooms seemed to freak out yesterday because of a poll that indicates a substantial and rising number of Americans think Barack Obama is a Muslim.
Apologists everywhere were quick to lash out and claim he is a Christian, and some claim he was never a Muslim. That isn't true.A little later in the same L.A. Times article:
As a boy in Indonesia, Barack Obama crisscrossed the religious divide. At the local primary school, he prayed in thanks to a Catholic saint. In the neighborhood mosque, he bowed to Allah. Having a personal background in both Christianity and Islam might seem useful for an aspiring U.S. president in an age when Islamic nations and radical groups are key national security and foreign policy issues. But a connection with Islam is untrod territory for presidential politics... [snip] ...His former Roman Catholic and Muslim teachers, along with two people who were identified by Obama's grade-school teacher as childhood friends, say Obama was registered by his family as a Muslim at both of the schools he attended. That registration meant that during the third and fourth grades, Obama learned about Islam for two hours each week in religion class. The childhood friends say Obama sometimes went to Friday prayers at the local mosque. "We prayed but not really seriously, just following actions done by older people in the mosque. But as kids, we loved to meet our friends and went to the mosque together and played," said Zulfin Adi, who describes himself as among Obama's closest childhood friends. The campaign's national press secretary, Bill Burton, said Wednesday that the friends were recalling events "that are 40 years old and subject to four decades of other information." Obama's younger sister, Maya Soetoro, said in a statement released by the campaign that the family attended the mosque only "for big communal events," not every Friday.
Barack Obama was born the son of a non-practicing Muslim father, and had a barely-practicing Muslim stepfather. Was a Barack Obama a devout Muslim? There is no evidence of that at all. But Barack Obama was a Muslim as a child, and prayed (at least occasionally) at the local mosque in Indonesia, as confirmed by family and friends. I don't think he is a Muslim now, any more than he is a Christian (the black liberation theology he exposed himself to at Trinity under Rev. Jeremiah Wright is hybrid of Marxist political beliefs and black nationalism cloaked in Christian trappings). If he were honest, Barack Obama would identify himself as non-religious. But he lies when he claims he was never a Muslim.
Neighborhood Muslims worshiped in a nearby house, which has since been replaced by a larger mosque. Sometimes, when the muezzin sounded the call to prayer, Lolo and Barry would walk to the makeshift mosque together, Adi said. "His mother often went to the church, but Barry was Muslim. He went to the mosque," Adi said. "I remember him wearing a sarong."
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at 07:22 AM
Comments
1
If I had to guess (and it isn't much of a stretch, I think) he's a small 'a' atheist, these days.
Posted by: ECM at August 20, 2010 11:29 AM (nYKDd)
2
he lies, period.
Posted by: redc1c4 at August 20, 2010 12:09 PM (d1FhN)
3
Barry O the Very Slow can't possibly be a Muslim, and I can prove it.
Being Muslim requires "submission" to a higher power, Call it Allah, God, Yahweh, what have you.
That would require BO to acknowledge that there is a higher power than himself.
Therefore, he can't possibly be Muslim.
QED.
Being Muslim requires "submission" to a higher power, Call it Allah, God, Yahweh, what have you.
That would require BO to acknowledge that there is a higher power than himself.
Therefore, he can't possibly be Muslim.
QED.
Posted by: alanstorm at August 20, 2010 12:24 PM (1KVW3)
4
I am an atheist, and for those of you who think otherwise, the First Amendment protects my right to be an atheist just like it protects your right to believe what you want to believe. Check it out.
That said, do you all realize how stupid you all look to us atheists trying to besmirch Obama's reputation by constantly hinting he is a Muslim? You are all like little children running around a schoolyard pointing fingers and calling names because he believes in a God, but not your God, or maybe not completely, and somehow you want us to believe that all those nuances of belief can make a person a bad person.
Give it a rest. You all look pretty idiotic.
That said, do you all realize how stupid you all look to us atheists trying to besmirch Obama's reputation by constantly hinting he is a Muslim? You are all like little children running around a schoolyard pointing fingers and calling names because he believes in a God, but not your God, or maybe not completely, and somehow you want us to believe that all those nuances of belief can make a person a bad person.
Give it a rest. You all look pretty idiotic.
Posted by: JayMagoo at August 20, 2010 12:37 PM (n79n+)
5
After years of hearing Progressives joke about people having a “personal relationship with Jesus Christ,” we are now told that we should believe that Obama has an unseen “personal relationship with Jesus Christ.” Some joke.
Frankly, this man wears religion like a suit, different religions for different occasions, a "religious camelion." Quite cynical if you ask me.
He’s an agnostic.
Frankly, this man wears religion like a suit, different religions for different occasions, a "religious camelion." Quite cynical if you ask me.
He’s an agnostic.
Posted by: Neo at August 20, 2010 12:37 PM (tE8FB)
6
"...cloaked in Christian trappings"
Thanks, CY, that's something that doesn't get pointed out often enough.
Thanks, CY, that's something that doesn't get pointed out often enough.
Posted by: pst314 at August 20, 2010 12:48 PM (OA547)
7
It makes no difference what religion obama follows, what matters is that he is a liar
and insults the American people by his opinion that we are all stupid enough to believe his lies!
Paul in Texas
and insults the American people by his opinion that we are all stupid enough to believe his lies!
Paul in Texas
Posted by: Paul Kanesky at August 20, 2010 12:50 PM (2i7Kh)
8
Obama's grandparents were apparently Unitarians. Although its roots were in an offshoot of Congregationalism, for sometime now the Unitarian Universalist Association has acknowledged itself as post Christian. The experiences described of visiting church and mosque in Indonesia on various festival days would be consistent with a Unitarian upbringing. Unitarians cheerfully participate in the practices of a great many religions in the name of culutral exchange while believing no aspect of any dogma or creed. Indeed, Unitarians tend to look down at those who do follow a creed as intellectual inferiors.
Posted by: NC Mountain Girl at August 20, 2010 12:57 PM (w7kAk)
9
He is a proffessional politician. That is the same as saying big fat liar. There should never have been any such thing as a proffessional politcian. It flies in the face of the founders. We were intended to work and then to give service in order to 'give back' to the country. Then, attorneys saw the land of milk and honey and swarmed it. See the desert it has become.
Posted by: Odins Acolyte at August 20, 2010 01:16 PM (brIiu)
10
JayMagoo, you are, at best, missing the point. At worst, you're an idiot.
If you can't recognize that Obama being a Muslim during a war against radical elements of that religion might affect his decisions and acts in an entirely different manner than being a Christian in the same circumstance, you should refrain from commenting until you get a brain.
As noted already, he's neither one, but your comment is still monumentally off base. BTW, I'm an atheist too, but one of the ones who can think. As you aptly demonstrate, atheists don't have a monopoly on brainpower. The only one looking idiotic here is you.
If you can't recognize that Obama being a Muslim during a war against radical elements of that religion might affect his decisions and acts in an entirely different manner than being a Christian in the same circumstance, you should refrain from commenting until you get a brain.
As noted already, he's neither one, but your comment is still monumentally off base. BTW, I'm an atheist too, but one of the ones who can think. As you aptly demonstrate, atheists don't have a monopoly on brainpower. The only one looking idiotic here is you.
Posted by: alanstorm at August 20, 2010 01:36 PM (1KVW3)
11
It seems the level of discourse here is at the schoolyard name-calling level. Alanstorm asserts that we may be "at war" with radical elements" of that religion, and that the far-fetched proposition that Obama is a Muslim might affect his decisions and actions. Illogical, on the face of it, guilt by association we would have said in Logic 101, not even recognizing that the association is a mythology that's promoted by the right wing noise machine for the obvious purpose of electing conservative Republicans, and one that has little or no basis in fact. But then mental midgets like alanstorm apparently cannot grasp that fact, and the other fact that we have a First Amendment that protects all religions, notwithstanding that fact that all religions have their radical elements. He's much better at mindless name calling than thinking.
Why he tells me he's an atheist is beyond me. There are more differences among atheists than within any religious sect, according to my unscientific observations.
Why he tells me he's an atheist is beyond me. There are more differences among atheists than within any religious sect, according to my unscientific observations.
Posted by: JayMagoo at August 20, 2010 01:51 PM (n79n+)
12
Big deal. The man is a screaming COMMUNIST and an adhearant of black liberation theoligy. We knew this three years ago and the sheeple still voted for him. It's the sheeple we have to worry about. We know Osama Obama and his Communist/Democrat minions are out to ruin this country in order to cement their power. It is up to us to reverce this trend by being the goats in the herd.
Posted by: EWoldcrow at August 20, 2010 02:54 PM (Kal6m)
13
Magoo
It seems the level of discourse here is at the schoolyard name-calling level.
Magoo
That said, do you all realize how stupid you all look to us atheists trying to besmirch Obama's reputation by constantly hinting he is a Muslim? You are all like little children running around a schoolyard pointing fingers and calling names because he believes in a God, but not your God, or maybe not completely, and somehow you want us to believe that all those nuances of belief can make a person a bad person.
Give it a rest. You all look pretty idiotic.
I guess "stupid .. idiotic .. little children" is not "schoolyard name-calling" in Magoos neck of the woods.
It seems the level of discourse here is at the schoolyard name-calling level.
Magoo
That said, do you all realize how stupid you all look to us atheists trying to besmirch Obama's reputation by constantly hinting he is a Muslim? You are all like little children running around a schoolyard pointing fingers and calling names because he believes in a God, but not your God, or maybe not completely, and somehow you want us to believe that all those nuances of belief can make a person a bad person.
Give it a rest. You all look pretty idiotic.
I guess "stupid .. idiotic .. little children" is not "schoolyard name-calling" in Magoos neck of the woods.
Posted by: flenser at August 20, 2010 03:17 PM (dhzQW)
14
Ah, and "mental midgets". I missed that one.
Posted by: flenser at August 20, 2010 03:18 PM (dhzQW)
15
Stick to the facts, Flenser, if you can. I was merely answering alanstorm in his own vernacular. You right wingers are all buying the slander by the right wing noise machine that Obama might be a Muslim, despite the transparency of an attempt to rally the non-thinking faithful conservatives to vote Republican. That assertion is so laughably transparent it mystifies me that anyone would accept it. And first amendment protections don't seem to occur to anyone here. Even Bible-belt Baptists and staid and proper Anglicans have their radical elements. Does that paint those entire sects with the broad brush of radicalism and exempt them from First Amendment protections?
Posted by: JayMagoo at August 20, 2010 03:28 PM (n79n+)
16
"You right wingers are all buying the slander by the right wing noise machine that Obama might be a Muslim, despite the transparency of an attempt to rally the non-thinking faithful conservatives to vote Republican."
(yawn)
First hand testimony, as related in the post, doesn't seem to matter to you does it?
Why bother when you can so easily rationalize your alternate reality?
I'll bet you even have an ill-founded opinion of the mosque proposal that's been in the news lately, don't you?
(yawn)
First hand testimony, as related in the post, doesn't seem to matter to you does it?
Why bother when you can so easily rationalize your alternate reality?
I'll bet you even have an ill-founded opinion of the mosque proposal that's been in the news lately, don't you?
Posted by: Bubba at August 20, 2010 03:52 PM (c2rRR)
17
Byron York says Obama bears some major responsibility for his "Obama=Muslim" problem.
Noteworthy:
"A new poll by the Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life shows that 18 percent of Americans believe Obama is a Muslim. That is up from the 12 percent who believed that in October 2008, just before Obama was elected president.
At the same time, the number of Pew respondents who say Obama is a Christian — in Dreams From My Father, he describes his conversion to Christianity under the tutelage of Rev. Jeremiah Wright — has declined from 51 percent in October 2008 to 34 percent now. And the number of people who say they don’t know Obama’s religion is growing, from 32 percent back then to 43 percent today.
The White House blames the situation on a 'misinformation campaign' from Obama’s opponents. But Obama and his aides might also blame themselves for the way they’ve handled the Muslim issue over the years."
Noteworthy:
"A new poll by the Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life shows that 18 percent of Americans believe Obama is a Muslim. That is up from the 12 percent who believed that in October 2008, just before Obama was elected president.
At the same time, the number of Pew respondents who say Obama is a Christian — in Dreams From My Father, he describes his conversion to Christianity under the tutelage of Rev. Jeremiah Wright — has declined from 51 percent in October 2008 to 34 percent now. And the number of people who say they don’t know Obama’s religion is growing, from 32 percent back then to 43 percent today.
The White House blames the situation on a 'misinformation campaign' from Obama’s opponents. But Obama and his aides might also blame themselves for the way they’ve handled the Muslim issue over the years."
Posted by: Bubba at August 20, 2010 04:14 PM (c2rRR)
18
Mr. Magoo - I suggest you adjust your glasses and reread CY's post because you seem to have skipped over its meaning.
I am also confused about which First Amendment protections you are concerned. Personally, I worry when Nancy Pelosi wants to have me investigated for expressing my opposition to projects such as the Ground Zero Mosque, which expression is protected by the First Amendment. Is that what you were talking about?
I am also confused about which First Amendment protections you are concerned. Personally, I worry when Nancy Pelosi wants to have me investigated for expressing my opposition to projects such as the Ground Zero Mosque, which expression is protected by the First Amendment. Is that what you were talking about?
Posted by: daleyrocks at August 20, 2010 04:44 PM (WOj7E)
19
The question whether Obama is a Muslim or a Christian to me is moot. I doubt he is anchored in any faith tradition; I think the man is shallow and conceited, bright but not wise, badly educated but gifted in the art of mimicry; his faith is in himself and his own importance and advancement.
Posted by: zhombre at August 20, 2010 05:04 PM (THBw8)
20
Mr. Magoo, you're still an idiot. And, as Flenser pointed out, those who first employ the terms and phrases "stupid .. idiotic .. little children" have no standing complain about name-calling. The same re: atheism - you mentioned it for some reason, I figured that would forestall any attempts to claim I was a "religious right-winger" or some such nonsense.
You're also an idiot for not understanding the post in the first place. Despite your claims that "You right wingers are all buying the slander by the right wing noise machine that Obama might be a Muslim", the post discounts that idea. Were you able to read and comprehend, you would have figured that out, and this comment would not exist.
You are again an idiot for misunderstanding my comment, which was that IF Barry O considered himself Muslim, THEN those beliefs would likely color his actions and attitudes towards the US. I do like your invocation of "Logic 101", a subject you know nothing about.
Lastly, you are an idiot for believing that someone's religious beliefs have no bearing on their opinions or actions. If you were capable of thought, you might realize how ridiculous that concept. After all, you make an implicit claim to be smarter than those who believe in God in your first post.
Calling you an idiot isn't name-calling. It's simply categorization according to observed characteristics.
You want small-minded, look in a mirror. You have no idea what you're talking about.
You're also an idiot for not understanding the post in the first place. Despite your claims that "You right wingers are all buying the slander by the right wing noise machine that Obama might be a Muslim", the post discounts that idea. Were you able to read and comprehend, you would have figured that out, and this comment would not exist.
You are again an idiot for misunderstanding my comment, which was that IF Barry O considered himself Muslim, THEN those beliefs would likely color his actions and attitudes towards the US. I do like your invocation of "Logic 101", a subject you know nothing about.
Lastly, you are an idiot for believing that someone's religious beliefs have no bearing on their opinions or actions. If you were capable of thought, you might realize how ridiculous that concept. After all, you make an implicit claim to be smarter than those who believe in God in your first post.
Calling you an idiot isn't name-calling. It's simply categorization according to observed characteristics.
You want small-minded, look in a mirror. You have no idea what you're talking about.
Posted by: alanstorm at August 20, 2010 05:12 PM (1KVW3)
21
Dear Mr. Magoo (no pun intended):
Actually, Mr. Obama was, at birth and for his early formative years, a muslim. His enrollment documents in what we'd call elementary school in Indonesia listed him as a muslim, and for good reason. In fact, jihadists would surely consider him an apostate muslim now and would be more than delighted to kill him, certainly because he is the American President, but more particularly because he has publicly rejected Islam.
Children born to a muslim father are, by their faith and traditions, muslim. Obama's father has been clearly and repeatedly identified as muslim and there has never been an attempt to backpedal on that identification. The Koran prescribes death for those who leave the faith. This is a sentence that has been carried out, usually by the family of the offenders, untold times over the centuries and even today. Muslims do not have the freedom to choose to leave Islam.
It's rather simple. As the son of a muslim, Barack Obama is a muslim, bearing a clearly islamic middle name. For whatever reason, he has publicly denied ever being muslim, in effect renouncing Islam, and has claimed to be a dedicated Christian. Those who renounce Islam are apostates and Islam decrees death for the crime of apostasy. Indeed, Christians endeavor to raise their children as Christians, but generally accept that one must make a conscious, informed and knowing choice to accept Christianity (most commonly when they are considered old enough to make such informed decisions) and that one may choose to leave it at will. However, this is not the case for muslims. Certainly there are muslims who do not try to harm those who leave the faith, but this merely reflects on their individual character and humanity, not the mandates of their faith.
So we might be technically yet incompletely correct in saying that Barack Obama currently describes himself as a Christian and denies ever being a Muslim. However the most accurate complete interpretation of the undisputed facts is that Barack Hussein Obama was born a Muslim, and was raised in that culture and faith during his early years, even writing about attending services at mosques in his two autobiographies. In addition, Mr. Obama has often, particularly before muslim audiences, spoken of his muslim roots (I'm paraphrasing) implying that those roots have given him a unique understanding of and affinity for muslim culture. As an American, he has the freedom to identify himself as an adherent of any faith, no faith, or merely to remain silent on the topic. However, all adherent muslims would of necessity and practice consider one who has been a muslim at any time in their life to be one of two things: A faithful muslim or an apostate.
Perhaps Mr. Obama should, for his own safety and that of his family, remember that before he tries to get too close to muslims, unless of course, he's winking at them with the understanding that he is a faithful muslim and is not telling the truth about being a Christian. Lying to infidels is also mandated in the Koran. In any case, it's hardly surprising that people might think Mr. Obama a muslim. Tens, perhaps hundreds, of millions of muslims certainly do.
Please note, Mr. Magoo, that I engaged in no name calling whatever, but merely presented the facts.
Actually, Mr. Obama was, at birth and for his early formative years, a muslim. His enrollment documents in what we'd call elementary school in Indonesia listed him as a muslim, and for good reason. In fact, jihadists would surely consider him an apostate muslim now and would be more than delighted to kill him, certainly because he is the American President, but more particularly because he has publicly rejected Islam.
Children born to a muslim father are, by their faith and traditions, muslim. Obama's father has been clearly and repeatedly identified as muslim and there has never been an attempt to backpedal on that identification. The Koran prescribes death for those who leave the faith. This is a sentence that has been carried out, usually by the family of the offenders, untold times over the centuries and even today. Muslims do not have the freedom to choose to leave Islam.
It's rather simple. As the son of a muslim, Barack Obama is a muslim, bearing a clearly islamic middle name. For whatever reason, he has publicly denied ever being muslim, in effect renouncing Islam, and has claimed to be a dedicated Christian. Those who renounce Islam are apostates and Islam decrees death for the crime of apostasy. Indeed, Christians endeavor to raise their children as Christians, but generally accept that one must make a conscious, informed and knowing choice to accept Christianity (most commonly when they are considered old enough to make such informed decisions) and that one may choose to leave it at will. However, this is not the case for muslims. Certainly there are muslims who do not try to harm those who leave the faith, but this merely reflects on their individual character and humanity, not the mandates of their faith.
So we might be technically yet incompletely correct in saying that Barack Obama currently describes himself as a Christian and denies ever being a Muslim. However the most accurate complete interpretation of the undisputed facts is that Barack Hussein Obama was born a Muslim, and was raised in that culture and faith during his early years, even writing about attending services at mosques in his two autobiographies. In addition, Mr. Obama has often, particularly before muslim audiences, spoken of his muslim roots (I'm paraphrasing) implying that those roots have given him a unique understanding of and affinity for muslim culture. As an American, he has the freedom to identify himself as an adherent of any faith, no faith, or merely to remain silent on the topic. However, all adherent muslims would of necessity and practice consider one who has been a muslim at any time in their life to be one of two things: A faithful muslim or an apostate.
Perhaps Mr. Obama should, for his own safety and that of his family, remember that before he tries to get too close to muslims, unless of course, he's winking at them with the understanding that he is a faithful muslim and is not telling the truth about being a Christian. Lying to infidels is also mandated in the Koran. In any case, it's hardly surprising that people might think Mr. Obama a muslim. Tens, perhaps hundreds, of millions of muslims certainly do.
Please note, Mr. Magoo, that I engaged in no name calling whatever, but merely presented the facts.
Posted by: mikemcdaniel at August 20, 2010 05:27 PM (AL1KP)
22
To Mike McDaniel,
Calling Obama a Muslim is like calling me an Irish-Catholic. As a young adult, I rejected Catholicism as just one of many schemes of mythology that long ago outlived its usefulness. And, I was born into a culture that identified itself by its national origins and its religion, but since the jokes of today about Pat and Mike would no longer be about ditch diggers, since Pat is likely to be a corporate CEO and Mike a PhD in the research department of that corporation. Hardly the kind of stuff bigots make jokes about. But the bigots and Fox News and the right wing propagandists seem to think Obama is fair game, regardless of the lack of truth in their utterances. Obama, probably not on a parallel track with me, but similarly, mainly because of his multi-cultural, multi-racial background, could possibly be called a mixed-race Muslim. I strongly suspect, like me, he not aligned to any religion, and as a politician has only a religion of convenience. But I insist that is strictly his own business, and I really don't want to know.
I went to Catholic school as a boy, and memorized the Baltimore Catechism, knew parts of it by heart, just as Obama probably went to religious schools during his young years. Am I a Catholic? Not by any stretch. To call Obama a Muslim because of his educational background as a boy is absurd, and to base your suspicion that he would jeopardize the safety of the United States out of some sympathy for radical Muslims is beyond absurd. But the right wing propagandists do it constantly.
Obama taught Constitutional Law at the University of Chicago Law School. He is an educated man of our times. I suspect he views this screaming and shouting by the right wing noise machine with some detached amusement, up to the time it starts to get personal and frighten his wife and children.
I personally feel the right wing noise machine has gone too far with their character assassination. But the First Amendment protects them, too, doesn't it. It's up to the American people to declare that we've had enough. I've had enough. What about the rest of you?
Calling Obama a Muslim is like calling me an Irish-Catholic. As a young adult, I rejected Catholicism as just one of many schemes of mythology that long ago outlived its usefulness. And, I was born into a culture that identified itself by its national origins and its religion, but since the jokes of today about Pat and Mike would no longer be about ditch diggers, since Pat is likely to be a corporate CEO and Mike a PhD in the research department of that corporation. Hardly the kind of stuff bigots make jokes about. But the bigots and Fox News and the right wing propagandists seem to think Obama is fair game, regardless of the lack of truth in their utterances. Obama, probably not on a parallel track with me, but similarly, mainly because of his multi-cultural, multi-racial background, could possibly be called a mixed-race Muslim. I strongly suspect, like me, he not aligned to any religion, and as a politician has only a religion of convenience. But I insist that is strictly his own business, and I really don't want to know.
I went to Catholic school as a boy, and memorized the Baltimore Catechism, knew parts of it by heart, just as Obama probably went to religious schools during his young years. Am I a Catholic? Not by any stretch. To call Obama a Muslim because of his educational background as a boy is absurd, and to base your suspicion that he would jeopardize the safety of the United States out of some sympathy for radical Muslims is beyond absurd. But the right wing propagandists do it constantly.
Obama taught Constitutional Law at the University of Chicago Law School. He is an educated man of our times. I suspect he views this screaming and shouting by the right wing noise machine with some detached amusement, up to the time it starts to get personal and frighten his wife and children.
I personally feel the right wing noise machine has gone too far with their character assassination. But the First Amendment protects them, too, doesn't it. It's up to the American people to declare that we've had enough. I've had enough. What about the rest of you?
Posted by: JayMagoo at August 20, 2010 06:09 PM (n79n+)
23
"to base your suspicion that he would jeopardize the safety of the United States out of some sympathy for radical Muslims is beyond absurd."
Mr. Magoo - I missed where Mike said this. Could you please point it out?
Thanks
Mr. Magoo - I missed where Mike said this. Could you please point it out?
Thanks
Posted by: daleyrocks at August 20, 2010 06:50 PM (WOj7E)
24
Give it a rest, Daleyrocks. I'm not going to answer questions about every phrase like a PhD candidate defending his thesis. If you don't get the sense of what I'm saying, you are trying not to.
Posted by: JayMagoo at August 20, 2010 07:02 PM (n79n+)
25
Magoo,
It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt. - Mark Twain
Too bad for you that ship has already sailed.
It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt. - Mark Twain
Too bad for you that ship has already sailed.
Posted by: NevadaDailySteve at August 20, 2010 07:23 PM (+xi30)
26
Stick to the facts, Flenser, if you can.
I am sticking to the facts. I'm sticking to the facts that you complained about the "schoolyard name calling" you found here while at the exact same time you were engaging in that same "schoolyard name calling" yourself.
Them's the facts, Jack.
I am sticking to the facts. I'm sticking to the facts that you complained about the "schoolyard name calling" you found here while at the exact same time you were engaging in that same "schoolyard name calling" yourself.
Them's the facts, Jack.
Posted by: flenser at August 20, 2010 07:37 PM (+vRQQ)
27
Dear Mr. Magoo:
I don't normally engage in back and forth conversations in these venues, but I'll take a moment to make a few points and let the readers determine who is sticking to fact and honest analysis and who is avoiding it.
One of the fundamental differences between Islam and Christianity is that Christians born into Christian families are still expected to accept or reject Christianity when they have reached the point of intellectual development necessary to make such decisions. Should they choose to reject it, parents and other may disapprove, but their survival will not hang in the balance. I, and others, are commenting on this issue precisely because the mainstream media took up the story, but as always, left out any facts inconvenient to Mr. Obama and/or to their favored narrative. As to Mr. Obama being called "...a mixed-race Muslim." I find myself mystified as I certainly said or implied nothing about race, nor do I recall anyone else in this thread making a similar assertion. The race of Mr. Obama, or anyone else for that matter, has nothing whatever to do with the matter at hand. You'll also recall that I stated that Americans have the freedom to embrace religion or no religion, but did this in making the point that muslims have no such freedom.
I did not call Mr. Obama a Muslim "...because of his education background as a boy..." but merely mentioned that fact as one of many bits of well known evidence to support the fact that the children of muslims are considered to be muslims--for life--by all other observant muslims. When his parents filled in the "education" blank in his school registration forms, they obviously considered him to be a muslim, or are our parents devoid of credibility in such matters? Did his parents make a mistake, writing "muslim" instead of "Christian?"
As to your observation that I asserted that Mr. Obama would "...jeopardize the safety of the United States out of some sympathy for radical Muslims..." One might be forgiven for concluding that you were reading the words of someone else as I made no such assertion, explicit or implied. My only glancing reference to this, again, merely points out, with Mr. Obama's own words, often repeated, his own acknowledgement of his muslim background at times and in venues where such acknowledgement would have benefited him. Like daleyrocks, I was not trying to avoid what you were saying, but merely wondering how you could have found such an implication where none was intended and where none existed.
Regarding character assassination, there simply is none in my comments. But I do agree that the American people have had enough. They'll make their point of view known in November. I suspect that you, and Mr. Obama, will not be pleased with what they have to say.
I don't normally engage in back and forth conversations in these venues, but I'll take a moment to make a few points and let the readers determine who is sticking to fact and honest analysis and who is avoiding it.
One of the fundamental differences between Islam and Christianity is that Christians born into Christian families are still expected to accept or reject Christianity when they have reached the point of intellectual development necessary to make such decisions. Should they choose to reject it, parents and other may disapprove, but their survival will not hang in the balance. I, and others, are commenting on this issue precisely because the mainstream media took up the story, but as always, left out any facts inconvenient to Mr. Obama and/or to their favored narrative. As to Mr. Obama being called "...a mixed-race Muslim." I find myself mystified as I certainly said or implied nothing about race, nor do I recall anyone else in this thread making a similar assertion. The race of Mr. Obama, or anyone else for that matter, has nothing whatever to do with the matter at hand. You'll also recall that I stated that Americans have the freedom to embrace religion or no religion, but did this in making the point that muslims have no such freedom.
I did not call Mr. Obama a Muslim "...because of his education background as a boy..." but merely mentioned that fact as one of many bits of well known evidence to support the fact that the children of muslims are considered to be muslims--for life--by all other observant muslims. When his parents filled in the "education" blank in his school registration forms, they obviously considered him to be a muslim, or are our parents devoid of credibility in such matters? Did his parents make a mistake, writing "muslim" instead of "Christian?"
As to your observation that I asserted that Mr. Obama would "...jeopardize the safety of the United States out of some sympathy for radical Muslims..." One might be forgiven for concluding that you were reading the words of someone else as I made no such assertion, explicit or implied. My only glancing reference to this, again, merely points out, with Mr. Obama's own words, often repeated, his own acknowledgement of his muslim background at times and in venues where such acknowledgement would have benefited him. Like daleyrocks, I was not trying to avoid what you were saying, but merely wondering how you could have found such an implication where none was intended and where none existed.
Regarding character assassination, there simply is none in my comments. But I do agree that the American people have had enough. They'll make their point of view known in November. I suspect that you, and Mr. Obama, will not be pleased with what they have to say.
Posted by: mikemcdaniel at August 20, 2010 07:40 PM (AL1KP)
28
Just as I thought; your making election predictions reveals the whole purpose of this back and forth. The Right wing noise machine, Fox News, and the Republican National Committee have one purpose, and that is to discredit Obama in any way possible so as to put the very wealthy (George W. Bush's "base") firmly in power and to keep his tax cut for the wealthy in place, to keep destroying unions, to eliminate social security and medicare, and to place the control of this country firmly in the hands of the corporatocracy and the very rich. They do it with lies (ala Hannity, Beck, Limbaugh et al.), selective omission of key facts in the news, and character assassination. The republicans have an amazing ability to convince Americans to vote against their own interest. Let's hope they don't dupe a majority of Americans this time.
As to assigning certain phrases or notions to you, it seems like most people on this blog speak with one voice, so if I mis-attributed someone else's statement to you, it was because all you right wingers are coming at me from all sides, and I got some of you mixed up with each other. Not hard to do, there is a certain sameness in all you say.
As to assigning certain phrases or notions to you, it seems like most people on this blog speak with one voice, so if I mis-attributed someone else's statement to you, it was because all you right wingers are coming at me from all sides, and I got some of you mixed up with each other. Not hard to do, there is a certain sameness in all you say.
Posted by: JayMagoo at August 20, 2010 07:59 PM (n79n+)
29
Magoo @7:59 - All that is right there in them there comments. Congratulations, you saw through everybody, in your dreams, with your first grade-school level Leftist 101 comment. Right-wing noise machine is sooooooo 2006.
Bring a brain if you come back.
Bring a brain if you come back.
Posted by: daleyrocks at August 20, 2010 08:12 PM (WOj7E)
30
Perspective:
"As the son of the Muslim father, Senator Obama was born a Muslim under Muslim law as it is universally understood. It makes no difference that, as Senator Obama has written, his father said he renounced his religion. Likewise, under Muslim law based on the Koran his mother’s Christian background is irrelevant.
...His conversion, however, was a crime in Muslim eyes; it is 'irtidad' or 'ridda,' usually translated from the Arabic as 'apostasy,' but with connotations of rebellion and treason. Indeed, it is the worst of all crimes that a Muslim can commit, worse than murder (which the victim’s family may choose to forgive)."
Does anyone doubt that Secret Service prepares for related threats, particularly when Obama travels to Islamic nations?
"As the son of the Muslim father, Senator Obama was born a Muslim under Muslim law as it is universally understood. It makes no difference that, as Senator Obama has written, his father said he renounced his religion. Likewise, under Muslim law based on the Koran his mother’s Christian background is irrelevant.
...His conversion, however, was a crime in Muslim eyes; it is 'irtidad' or 'ridda,' usually translated from the Arabic as 'apostasy,' but with connotations of rebellion and treason. Indeed, it is the worst of all crimes that a Muslim can commit, worse than murder (which the victim’s family may choose to forgive)."
Does anyone doubt that Secret Service prepares for related threats, particularly when Obama travels to Islamic nations?
Posted by: Bubba at August 20, 2010 08:13 PM (c2rRR)
31
Davyrocks, you play the fool well. Keep at it, you have a future, m'boy.
Posted by: JayMagoo at August 20, 2010 08:18 PM (n79n+)
32
the Secret Service has their hands full, and they have increased their Presidential Detail considerably, because of unreconstructed KKK members who the Fox News Propaganda and the right wing noise machine brought to life again.
Posted by: JayMagoo at August 20, 2010 08:23 PM (n79n+)
33
to discredit Obama in any way possible so as to put the very wealthy (George W. Bush's "base") firmly in power
The "very wealthy" support the Dems over the GOP by ten to one.
That's another fact, Jack.
The "very wealthy" support the Dems over the GOP by ten to one.
That's another fact, Jack.
Posted by: flenser at August 20, 2010 08:54 PM (+vRQQ)
34
unreconstructed KKK members who the Fox News Propaganda and the right wing noise machine brought to life again.
Behold, our Legions of the Dead!
Aragorn summoned them forth with the sword Andúril, reforged from the shards of Narsil.
Behold, our Legions of the Dead!
Aragorn summoned them forth with the sword Andúril, reforged from the shards of Narsil.
Posted by: flenser at August 20, 2010 09:00 PM (+vRQQ)
35
Magoo - It is amazing how pants pissing scared you liberals are of one cable television station when you control the content at CBS, NBC, ABC, CNN, and PMSNBC. That is some powerful fear of any truth leaking out from a gigantic right wing noise machine. Hey, if you add in talk radio, it get bigger because nobody wants to listen to liberal talk radio, but then you've got virtually all liberal major metropolitan daily newpapers. Right wing noise machine my butt. Scared liberal liars is the tribe you belong to.
Posted by: daleyrocks at August 20, 2010 10:24 PM (WOj7E)
36
"said in a statement released by the campaign that the family attended the mosque only "for big communal events," not every Friday"
It's not a mosque, it's a community center!
It's not a mosque, it's a community center!
Posted by: Landru at August 20, 2010 10:31 PM (GHpB7)
37
Sounds like he was born Muslim, but as in most aspects of life, he was a slacker at practicing that religion.
Today, he is clearly an adherent of the Church of Malignant Narcissism.
Today, he is clearly an adherent of the Church of Malignant Narcissism.
Posted by: Junk Science Skeptic at August 21, 2010 02:23 AM (Fnr44)
38
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Posted by: classic-christianlouboutin.com at August 21, 2010 04:31 AM (1XbuW)
39
"Behold, our Legions of the Dead!..."
LOL!
Troll Magoo, on the other hand, is merely Wormtongue without the brains.
LOL!
Troll Magoo, on the other hand, is merely Wormtongue without the brains.
Posted by: pst314 at August 21, 2010 10:45 AM (XP0Bd)
40
The 'very wealthy'? People like George Soros? Last I checked, the Democrat Party is a wholly owned subsidiary of Soros Enterprises.
Posted by: David Davies at August 21, 2010 11:51 AM (hI9dq)
41
It is amazing how pants pissing scared you liberals are of one cable television station when you control the content at CBS, NBC, ABC, CNN, and PMSNBC.
Heh. Libs often accuse those same stations as being "right-wing".
To do so it takes a juxtaposition of subjective observation and a depth of ignorance that runs so deep that the observer is clueless as to their own gaps in knowledge; and/or someone so far left that they think a socialist is "right-wing".
Heh. Libs often accuse those same stations as being "right-wing".
To do so it takes a juxtaposition of subjective observation and a depth of ignorance that runs so deep that the observer is clueless as to their own gaps in knowledge; and/or someone so far left that they think a socialist is "right-wing".
Posted by: Druid at August 22, 2010 11:28 AM (9bSMF)
42
Don't know why Mr. Magoo's comments are taken seriously. By best polling and investigation, Atheists are somewhere between 2.5% and 5% of the population (this is Atheists only, not "Agnostics"). This may be generous. Their numbers are declining year by year.
So, while they are entitled to their belief, they are in the larger scheme, irrelevant. They speak for no significant portion of the population.
So, while they are entitled to their belief, they are in the larger scheme, irrelevant. They speak for no significant portion of the population.
Posted by: SgtJim at August 22, 2010 03:30 PM (ImttL)
43
I think my favorite comment was this:
"I'm not going to answer questions about every phrase like a PhD candidate defending his thesis. If you don't get the sense of what I'm saying, you are trying not to."
Read: "I know I'm dead wrong, and I can't admit it. Repenting is hard. So instead, I'll just blame you for not trying to gloss over my lies."
It inverts right and wrong, good and bad, and yes; good and evil.
After denying any need to defend it's lies, it later tries to by stating:
"As to assigning certain phrases or notions to you, it seems like most people on this blog speak with one voice, so if I mis-attributed someone else's statement to you, it was because all you right wingers are coming at me from all sides, and I got some of you mixed up with each other. Not hard to do, there is a certain sameness in all you say."
Read: "It's your fault that I lie."
I've said it before, and I'll say it again. A man who has no integrity, has nothing.
"I'm not going to answer questions about every phrase like a PhD candidate defending his thesis. If you don't get the sense of what I'm saying, you are trying not to."
Read: "I know I'm dead wrong, and I can't admit it. Repenting is hard. So instead, I'll just blame you for not trying to gloss over my lies."
It inverts right and wrong, good and bad, and yes; good and evil.
After denying any need to defend it's lies, it later tries to by stating:
"As to assigning certain phrases or notions to you, it seems like most people on this blog speak with one voice, so if I mis-attributed someone else's statement to you, it was because all you right wingers are coming at me from all sides, and I got some of you mixed up with each other. Not hard to do, there is a certain sameness in all you say."
Read: "It's your fault that I lie."
I've said it before, and I'll say it again. A man who has no integrity, has nothing.
Posted by: brando at August 23, 2010 02:11 PM (IPGju)
44
obama is a muslim! he is anti-american, he hates the USA.
Posted by: southernsue at August 25, 2010 09:12 AM (s8T7E)
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