More Indoctrinated "Obama Youth"
The pseudo-militant look of step-dancing in this video, combined with the old-style military woodland BDUs, is going to frighten those unfamiliar with stepping, though it shouldn't. In and of itself, it is an awesome form of dance to watch.
The stepping, combined with the cultish fanaticism focusing on Obama, however, is going to freak some people out.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at 12:53 PM
Comments
1
I found this video far more creepy and frightening than the singing children video.
Posted by: Sara at October 04, 2008 01:07 PM (Wi/N0)
2
Shades of the Hitler youth!
Posted by: RayC at October 04, 2008 01:39 PM (hD7Qb)
3
Forget the stepping...
Turning the bullet points of Senator Obama's health care proposals into a semi-liturgical memorized chant is ultra-creepy.
Turning the bullet points of Senator Obama's health care proposals into a semi-liturgical memorized chant is ultra-creepy.
Posted by: Clint at October 04, 2008 01:44 PM (oZ5OG)
4
They march in chanting "Alpha-Omega"! That is a term in the bible that is for God alone! Who the hell do these people think Obama is?
Posted by: Matt at October 04, 2008 02:46 PM (Cn+Ma)
5
Matt, you're an idiot. Alpha Omega is a black fraternity.
Posted by: db1820 at October 04, 2008 03:22 PM (W5g/T)
6
db1820, take a look at your Bible if you have one. God states that HE is the Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the end. The Alpha Omega fraternity came along MUCH later.
Either way you slice it, this video bothers the heck out of me.
Either way you slice it, this video bothers the heck out of me.
Posted by: Nina at October 04, 2008 03:53 PM (cHSOu)
7
Revelations 1:8 - I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
Posted by: Sara at October 04, 2008 04:06 PM (Wi/N0)
8
They act as if Obama is the second coming...
Sorry, but my religion states, "Thou shalt not have FALSE GODS before me."
End of story.
You might also want to check this out:
http://www.ibdeditorials.com/IBDArticles.aspx?id=307928498550592
Sorry, but my religion states, "Thou shalt not have FALSE GODS before me."
End of story.
You might also want to check this out:
http://www.ibdeditorials.com/IBDArticles.aspx?id=307928498550592
Posted by: Gerry at October 04, 2008 06:04 PM (fHRdA)
9
Look into my eyes, what do you see?
Cult of personality
I know your anger, I know your dreams
Ive been everything you want to be
Im the cult of personality
Like mussolini and kennedy
Im the cult of personality
Cult of personality
Cult of personality
Neon lights, a nobel prize
The mirror speaks, the reflection lies
You dont have to follow me
Only you can set me free
I sell the things you need to be
Im the smiling face on your t.v.
Im the cult of personality
I exploit you still you love me
I tell you one and one makes three
Im the cult of personality
Like joseph stalin and gandi
Im the cult of personality
Cult of personality
Cult of personality
Living Colour
Anyone see the parallels?
Cult of personality
I know your anger, I know your dreams
Ive been everything you want to be
Im the cult of personality
Like mussolini and kennedy
Im the cult of personality
Cult of personality
Cult of personality
Neon lights, a nobel prize
The mirror speaks, the reflection lies
You dont have to follow me
Only you can set me free
I sell the things you need to be
Im the smiling face on your t.v.
Im the cult of personality
I exploit you still you love me
I tell you one and one makes three
Im the cult of personality
Like joseph stalin and gandi
Im the cult of personality
Cult of personality
Cult of personality
Living Colour
Anyone see the parallels?
Posted by: Big Country at October 04, 2008 06:28 PM (niydV)
10
Holy Sheepfeathers! THAT is some scary stuff. And let us look at Revelations for the description of the Anti-Christ. Scary. Fits though.
Posted by: cmblake6 at October 04, 2008 07:56 PM (QSVQf)
11
"Matt, you're an idiot. Alpha Omega is a black fraternity."
Alpha Omega is a fraternity of Jewish dental students.
Idiot.
Name calling is fun.
Alpha Omega is a fraternity of Jewish dental students.
Idiot.
Name calling is fun.
Posted by: Vermin at October 04, 2008 08:19 PM (iO5n6)
12
I see where the next brownshirts might be coming from. There verbal devotion to being "inspired" and wanting to make something of themselves (as if they haven't previously had those opportunities) is admirable, their cultic devotion to Obamessiah is definitely not.
If the "Obama Truth Squads" in Missouri are a portent of things to come, Americans who refuse to live on the liberal plantation if this angry unaccomplished empty suit gets elected, might get a good taste of the kind of velvet gulag today's liberal Democrats offer.
We must be ready to stand firm on both the First and Second Amendment of our Constitution if we have any hope of exposing the wolves in sheep's clothing on the left for what they really are in the coming years ... closet fascists.
If the "Obama Truth Squads" in Missouri are a portent of things to come, Americans who refuse to live on the liberal plantation if this angry unaccomplished empty suit gets elected, might get a good taste of the kind of velvet gulag today's liberal Democrats offer.
We must be ready to stand firm on both the First and Second Amendment of our Constitution if we have any hope of exposing the wolves in sheep's clothing on the left for what they really are in the coming years ... closet fascists.
Posted by: Libmeister at October 04, 2008 08:25 PM (hkLmQ)
13
It's fun largely because of the number of targets that keep stepping onto the range. 
Posted by: Chad at October 04, 2008 08:26 PM (kaeov)
14
"Because of Obama I aspire (?)...."
Why does Barack Obama allow this to be done?
Don't tell me he doesn't know.
What kind of personality disorder does one have that allows this?
Why does Barack Obama allow this to be done?
Don't tell me he doesn't know.
What kind of personality disorder does one have that allows this?
Posted by: JAL at October 04, 2008 08:30 PM (4TU0O)
15
Why does everyone have to perform that elbows-up move?
Those kids need to get out and run around the track a few times. They look out of shape.
Those kids need to get out and run around the track a few times. They look out of shape.
Posted by: miriam at October 04, 2008 09:00 PM (KuH24)
16
There is an element of creepiness to this that cannot be ignored - mainly the combat fatigues. Beyond that - and as a McCain supporter - I still have to say that if Obama ACTUALLY inspires these kids to rise to their stated aspirations I will be delighted. The various professions and occupations to which they say they aspire are fine things, and if they achieve them we will all benefit because we won't care about race on either side of the racial divide. The paramilitary feel is unfortunate, but I've never felt paranoid as an American and even with Obama around I don't.
Posted by: Lazlo Toth at October 04, 2008 09:31 PM (fUOXs)
17
"Sheepfeathers" indeed!
Posted by: Mister Snitch at October 04, 2008 09:37 PM (U+ya4)
18
This is all over the place and has got the same reaction everywhere else as here, probably because it dovetails nicely with the Venice singfest and the Obama campaign's thuggish election day plans. But this one's innocent. There's a tradition of this sort of thing in black fraternities. See, for example, the movie "Drumline" (2002), with a scene where fraternity and sorority dance groups compete with just this sort of dance. By coincidence, "Drumline" is playing on VH1 tomorrow, 10/5, at noon (EST, I presume). For info see http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0303933/ BTW, it's a good movie.
Posted by: Richard at October 04, 2008 09:39 PM (bQHDM)
19
Libmeister-
You are assuming our Constitution will still exist under the Obama Administration. I strongly believe it will be destroyed and the USA will become a One Party State.
That is what these radicals want. They want a revolution. They tried it by not funding the war in hopes that our troops would get tired and lay down their weapons and desert. When that didn't happen, they found an African-American to come along and secure the black/minority vote.
That way they could shout, "Racism!" whenever we disagree with their Master. And there goes our freedom of speech.
The McCain campaign better wake to this before it is all over...
And we true blue Americans better get on our knees and ask God to have mercy on us one more time....even though we do not deserve it.
You are assuming our Constitution will still exist under the Obama Administration. I strongly believe it will be destroyed and the USA will become a One Party State.
That is what these radicals want. They want a revolution. They tried it by not funding the war in hopes that our troops would get tired and lay down their weapons and desert. When that didn't happen, they found an African-American to come along and secure the black/minority vote.
That way they could shout, "Racism!" whenever we disagree with their Master. And there goes our freedom of speech.
The McCain campaign better wake to this before it is all over...
And we true blue Americans better get on our knees and ask God to have mercy on us one more time....even though we do not deserve it.
Posted by: Artist at October 04, 2008 09:44 PM (1z/5R)
20
I'm a Jew who grew up in the former USSR, so I'm a bit touchy about things like this. But I'm ready to believe that this is innocent. I'm also ready to concede that that other video of singing children is innocent. And the thuggish behavior of Obama supporters at primary caucuses is just business as usual (unions have been intimidating people like this for years). Obama Camps - just a training program for campaign activists. "Missouri Truth Squad" - an unfortunate name combined with overly zealous Democrats. I'm event down with the idea that Obama has no hand in any of this (except for Obama Camps). Each thing taken individually is quite innocuous. But put it all together, and some long forgotten emotions start to rise. The thing about the personality cult - and I'm not ready to state that it's here - is that it's a self feeding loop between people and the object of their admiration. It starts with simple folks and ends with the individual believing he's God. I'm afraid that we are standing at the very beginning, however still innocent, of very ugly events to come.
Posted by: dave at October 04, 2008 10:01 PM (ki+Cz)
21
Will you guys stop with the Nazi references already. The Hitler Youth, the Brown Shirts, the SA, the SS, all the crazy organizations that sprang up under the Nazi umbrella before the outbreak of WWII, weren't famous for singing and dancing and worshipping their leader.... They were infamous for vandalism, thuggery, beatings, and outright murder of political opponents.
When gangs of Obama Youth rampage through conservative neighborhoods, shattering windows, catching opposition newspapers on fire, cracking heads open with pool cues, raping, and throwing people off roofs, you might have a point.
Until then, all you've got is some overly impressionable kids singing some dumb songs.
Just how paranoid are you George Bush Republicans?
Keith Nolan
When gangs of Obama Youth rampage through conservative neighborhoods, shattering windows, catching opposition newspapers on fire, cracking heads open with pool cues, raping, and throwing people off roofs, you might have a point.
Until then, all you've got is some overly impressionable kids singing some dumb songs.
Just how paranoid are you George Bush Republicans?
Keith Nolan
Posted by: KeithNolan at October 04, 2008 10:38 PM (2iAhy)
22
Ok, no problem then. I'll wait till they're burning my car in my driveway.
Posted by: bc at October 04, 2008 11:01 PM (i++qn)
23
What cracks me up, B.C., is that during my days as a Republican, no liberal even gave me a sideways glance for my Reagan, Bush I, or Dole bumper stickers.
When the Swift Boaters turned me into a Democrat in 2004 with their lies, I slapped on a Kerry bumper sticker.... and was flashed the finger by several GOPers, and almost run off the road by several fine youths in a pick-up truck. (I lived in rural Missouri at the time.)
It never occured to me that I'd been attacked by members of a non-existent Bush Youth gang. I just thought I'd encountered some jerks.
You guys are beyond paranoid! No one's gonna burn your car!
When the Swift Boaters turned me into a Democrat in 2004 with their lies, I slapped on a Kerry bumper sticker.... and was flashed the finger by several GOPers, and almost run off the road by several fine youths in a pick-up truck. (I lived in rural Missouri at the time.)
It never occured to me that I'd been attacked by members of a non-existent Bush Youth gang. I just thought I'd encountered some jerks.
You guys are beyond paranoid! No one's gonna burn your car!
Posted by: KeithNolan at October 04, 2008 11:58 PM (2iAhy)
24
This Barack Hussien Obama was voted by his collegues I believe as the most liberal senator with Joe Biden coming in third. For a man to say it is okay to leave a baby to die in a utility closet because the doctor botched the murder job while it was still in the womb or partially so is inhuman and godless. It's okay for him because that's was the intent of what the lady wanted for the baby to be terminated. You are going against her wishes. It's infanticide. It was labeled as so and Obama had no quams about it accept his being painted negatively because of his stand. Once this nation becomes overwhelmingly godless either militant atheistic or falsely religious despite the self label of "progressive" its actually becoming regressive as true moral standards plummet and right becomes wrong and wrong becomes right. Stalin, Hitler and all the past or current marxist socialist type regimes are a warning as what is to follow as wicked man rebels against God and bows to his demonic self and the tyrannical state.
Murder and violence is no problem because it is viewed as exterminating those who stand in the way of true progress but in the end it is only a way that leads to eternal death. Once the USA as founded by the fore fathers of this nation disappears this world will lose its last restraint. Nobama! No Ayers! No Rev Wright! No Barney Franks! No Harry Reid! No Pelosi! Take your peaceful stand while you have the God given freedom to do so and speak out flush him and them out and vote this Obama thug down and out.
Murder and violence is no problem because it is viewed as exterminating those who stand in the way of true progress but in the end it is only a way that leads to eternal death. Once the USA as founded by the fore fathers of this nation disappears this world will lose its last restraint. Nobama! No Ayers! No Rev Wright! No Barney Franks! No Harry Reid! No Pelosi! Take your peaceful stand while you have the God given freedom to do so and speak out flush him and them out and vote this Obama thug down and out.
Posted by: TonyUSA at October 04, 2008 11:58 PM (KE4sc)
25
KeithNolan
It becomes a simple matter to turn them into the equivalent of Chavez Thugs , the SA and what have you . Once Obama comes into power , it will be so easy for their leaders to use them as they see fit like silencing Obama's foes for instance .
It becomes a simple matter to turn them into the equivalent of Chavez Thugs , the SA and what have you . Once Obama comes into power , it will be so easy for their leaders to use them as they see fit like silencing Obama's foes for instance .
Posted by: Will at October 05, 2008 12:05 AM (4sHuN)
26
If the SwiftBoats were liars , then why did John F Kerry haven't released his SF-180 yet which he had promised . Why was John Kerry quiet about his Winter Soldier participation ? Why did John Kerry lied about his Cambodian excursion which did not happen ? And could somebody explain to me why John Kerry was honored by the Vietnamese in Ho Chi Minh city? The Swifties were effective because they told the truth about John Kerry .
Posted by: Will at October 05, 2008 12:14 AM (4sHuN)
27
KeithNolan, with all due respect, you are beyond naïve. If you think the "SwiftBoaters" lied, you may want to re-examine the evidence.
With respect to the topic at hand, if the ever-present deification of Obama by his supporters doesn't unsettle you, then I pity you. Societies the sing songs to "great leaders" are not free societies... ask the Cubans, Koreans, et.al.
With respect to the topic at hand, if the ever-present deification of Obama by his supporters doesn't unsettle you, then I pity you. Societies the sing songs to "great leaders" are not free societies... ask the Cubans, Koreans, et.al.
Posted by: Tom at October 05, 2008 12:37 AM (VmACN)
28
Will and Tom, this is no place to rehash the whole Swift Boat debacle, but I will say this: I've spent my entire adult life (twenty-five years) interviewing Vietnam veterans, reading almost all the available literature on the subject, and studying the government archives, and, as a result, have been fortunate to have published eleven non-fiction books on the Vietnam War.
With that background, it was obvious the Swifties were lying about numerous subjects, from Kerry's supposedly unearned Silver Star (hundreds of officers got the exact same medal for very similar actions), to the actual conduct of the war, as testified to by Kerry's Winter Soldiers. (The Swiftees seem to have forgotten what search-and-destroy meant at the ground level, and seem never to have heard of My Lai, My Khe, Son Thang, the Tiger Force, the B/1/5th Marines incident, the Kerrey SEAL incident, General Ewell, the 1/27th Marines incident, the B/1/35th Infantry incident, the numerous 1/1 Cavalry incidents, etc., etc., etc., etc, etc., etc., etc.)
Anyway, I know at least one veteran who served with Kerry in Vietnam, and numerous veterans who were part of his anti-war organization, and their testimony (and the testimony to be found in memoirs, history books, and official publications) bears NO RELATIONSHIP WHATSOEVER to the feel-good, white-washing swill offered up by the Swift Boaters.
If you want gruesome details, and gruesome photos, to back up what I'm saying, we'll have to find another venue.
Anyway, read some scholarship about the village-burning, body-count-crazy conduct of the Vietnam War.... and then, to get back to the topic at hand, read some scholarship about the Nazis, at which point you guys might stop this utterly nutso linkage between Hitler and Obama.
It's ridiculous chatter like this that makes the modern-day GOP sound like the party of paranoids and know-nothings.
Enough with the Nazi B.S. already!
Sorry, but there it is!
With that background, it was obvious the Swifties were lying about numerous subjects, from Kerry's supposedly unearned Silver Star (hundreds of officers got the exact same medal for very similar actions), to the actual conduct of the war, as testified to by Kerry's Winter Soldiers. (The Swiftees seem to have forgotten what search-and-destroy meant at the ground level, and seem never to have heard of My Lai, My Khe, Son Thang, the Tiger Force, the B/1/5th Marines incident, the Kerrey SEAL incident, General Ewell, the 1/27th Marines incident, the B/1/35th Infantry incident, the numerous 1/1 Cavalry incidents, etc., etc., etc., etc, etc., etc., etc.)
Anyway, I know at least one veteran who served with Kerry in Vietnam, and numerous veterans who were part of his anti-war organization, and their testimony (and the testimony to be found in memoirs, history books, and official publications) bears NO RELATIONSHIP WHATSOEVER to the feel-good, white-washing swill offered up by the Swift Boaters.
If you want gruesome details, and gruesome photos, to back up what I'm saying, we'll have to find another venue.
Anyway, read some scholarship about the village-burning, body-count-crazy conduct of the Vietnam War.... and then, to get back to the topic at hand, read some scholarship about the Nazis, at which point you guys might stop this utterly nutso linkage between Hitler and Obama.
It's ridiculous chatter like this that makes the modern-day GOP sound like the party of paranoids and know-nothings.
Enough with the Nazi B.S. already!
Sorry, but there it is!
Posted by: KeithNolan at October 05, 2008 12:54 AM (2iAhy)
Posted by: sunshine484848 at October 05, 2008 01:05 AM (i+DU3)
30
this paramilitary cult of personality stuff has been simmering in the African American community for quite a while - ObamaMania will bring it to a full boil. I saw this on my campus 20 years ago:
Our Student Body President was roughed up by a gang of thugs in front of dozens of witnesses, because he advocated DE-segregating Homecoming - Black leaders in the administration and faculty had spread the false rumor that the SB President was plotting to eliminate all black student groups. The student newspaper was too cowardly to condemn the attack.
At a campus meeting, a black student began his address to the group with the words "assalamu alaikum" and I reflexively responded "aleichem shalom". I was overheard, and 3 goons stood in front of me, facing me, for the rest of the meeting. A student sat next to me and grilled me about my name, address, etc. Everyone pretended not to notice.
And then there was the time Khalid Abdul Muhammad came to speak - this was years before his Kean College speech, but it was pretty much the same. Again, previously outspoken liberals fell silent.
Our Student Body President was roughed up by a gang of thugs in front of dozens of witnesses, because he advocated DE-segregating Homecoming - Black leaders in the administration and faculty had spread the false rumor that the SB President was plotting to eliminate all black student groups. The student newspaper was too cowardly to condemn the attack.
At a campus meeting, a black student began his address to the group with the words "assalamu alaikum" and I reflexively responded "aleichem shalom". I was overheard, and 3 goons stood in front of me, facing me, for the rest of the meeting. A student sat next to me and grilled me about my name, address, etc. Everyone pretended not to notice.
And then there was the time Khalid Abdul Muhammad came to speak - this was years before his Kean College speech, but it was pretty much the same. Again, previously outspoken liberals fell silent.
Posted by: cincinnati kid at October 05, 2008 02:06 AM (aNA8P)
31
Cincinatti Kid, you've exactly hit the nail on the head. The willingness of black Americans to march in lockstep, to riot, to silence the opposition by any means necessary, to kill because the person's the hated Other (as in Y. Rosenbaum) is what makes the cult of Obama so dangerous. As a black person, I'm appalled that at how 95%+ of the community is supporting Obama just because his skin is the 'right' color. If you believe these youth are benevolent, consider the instances of hate-America-ism that have been popping up in the black community: the singer(s) who are refusing to sing the national anthem and sub with the "black national anthem"; people who demand to be seated elsewhere in a restaurant cuz they don't want to sit next to whites; athlete who join Obama and Wright in damning America (I include Obama in that because you don't sit for 20 years unless you agree!). These are not isolated instances; America is evil is well believed in the black community. If you think people won't act on that, under orders from Obama, then you misunderstand his education as an Alinsky agitator, his role as teacher of Alinsky's method of community agitating, and his willingness to send people out to agitate--he's already done that. Get in their faces, he said. And they will. So, this IS dangerous!
Posted by: indga at October 05, 2008 04:27 AM (RiNwE)
32
This looks a whole heck of a lot like some sort of juvenile detention center. I cant read what the T-shirts say, but they don't look like any of the Obama t-shirts. Also, the woodland BDUs is a staple of boot-camp style juvi's.
So, does it make it even creepier that this is likely some state agency permitting their charges to perform such a routine?
So, does it make it even creepier that this is likely some state agency permitting their charges to perform such a routine?
Posted by: SFC B at October 05, 2008 07:13 AM (pft8V)
33
This video is just as scary as this quote from a Barry speech, which his campaign has refused to explain or answer:
"We cannot continue to rely on our military in order to achieve the national security objectives we've set. We've got to have a civilian national security force that's just as powerful, just as strong, just as well-funded."July 2 2008,in Colorado Springs, Co.
"We cannot continue to rely on our military in order to achieve the national security objectives we've set. We've got to have a civilian national security force that's just as powerful, just as strong, just as well-funded."July 2 2008,in Colorado Springs, Co.
Posted by: CrystalD at October 05, 2008 09:33 AM (a5r62)
34
I was in Viet-Nam long before you were born, KeithNolan. I was there. You weren't. You have been propagandized, and believe what you want to believe. John Kerry may have slaughtered innocents; the many, many boat crews I served with up and down the Vam Co Tay River never did any such damned thing. Grow up.
Posted by: Mack at October 05, 2008 09:43 AM (GAf+S)
35
Keith Nolan
For all the words you had posted in response to my post , you have not answered my questions . Not one word about Kerry's SF-180 or Kerry's lie about a covert Cambodian excursion that never happened . I never even mentioned his three Purple Hearts and his Silver Star because that's another can of worms against John F Kerry when the real truth comes out about his Vietnam service . You could not explain to me why the Winter Soldier defamed millions of American Vietnam service men and women who never committed those atrocities that you mentioned but for the convenience of John F Kerry's ambitions and his anti-war pals had managed to included every single veteran as a blood thirsty barbarian that needs to be stopped .
I don't know what they taught you at J-school , but from where I stand as a foreign graduate and an immigrant , your command of facts is limited by your blindness to prove that John F Kerry had done nothing wrong .
For all the words you had posted in response to my post , you have not answered my questions . Not one word about Kerry's SF-180 or Kerry's lie about a covert Cambodian excursion that never happened . I never even mentioned his three Purple Hearts and his Silver Star because that's another can of worms against John F Kerry when the real truth comes out about his Vietnam service . You could not explain to me why the Winter Soldier defamed millions of American Vietnam service men and women who never committed those atrocities that you mentioned but for the convenience of John F Kerry's ambitions and his anti-war pals had managed to included every single veteran as a blood thirsty barbarian that needs to be stopped .
I don't know what they taught you at J-school , but from where I stand as a foreign graduate and an immigrant , your command of facts is limited by your blindness to prove that John F Kerry had done nothing wrong .
Posted by: Wil at October 05, 2008 10:31 AM (4sHuN)
36
I agree with Lazlo. Listen to these young men, the message is quite positive. They want to be doctors, engineers and architects, rather than drug dealers, rappers and NBA stars. If Obama has inspired a wave of self discipline and goal oriented behavior in the black community, it will be the first good he has done.
I am not intimidated by uniform and the marching, but I went to two military schools, the Naval Academy and had 20 years of active duty. The cadets and midshipmen with whom I studied were kept in much better physical condition.
Richard, have you ever seen the Top Secret Swiss Drum Line? It's amazing!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o7k6VYGtm8g
I am not intimidated by uniform and the marching, but I went to two military schools, the Naval Academy and had 20 years of active duty. The cadets and midshipmen with whom I studied were kept in much better physical condition.
Richard, have you ever seen the Top Secret Swiss Drum Line? It's amazing!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o7k6VYGtm8g
Posted by: arch at October 05, 2008 10:41 AM (mf5lg)
37
Mack, as you know, the Vietnam War was a very personal thing, with experiences shaped by what unit a man served with, when he served, where he served, and under what kind of leadership he served. In addition, different ROEs obviously applied at different times and places.
That your service was free of ugly incidents is a testament to you, your comrades, and your leadership. It does not, however, turn into liars those who say they saw ugly incidents in their units.... and, who, I have discovered, have saved for decades polaroids of they and their buddies burning hootches, manhandling villages, beating captured guerrillas, and in one instance, mutilating enemy dead (that is cutting their heads off, and posing with the heads).
I don't think Mr. Owens wants me to hijack this thread into a refight of the Swift Boat wars, so all I will say is you should be glad you were a sailor in your particular unit, and not an infantryman or marine in numerous other units I could cite where ugly incidents where the norm, not the exception.
Oh, finally, my age has nothing to do with this. I don't remember the Swiftees casting aside the support of characters like Sean Hannity, Rush Limbaugh, Michele Malkin, or Ann Coulter because they were either too young (or supposedly unhealthy) to have served in Vietnam.
Anyway, back to the topic, do you really agree with this nonsensical link between Obama and the bloody Nazis, for pete's sake?
Best Wishes,
Keith Nolan
That your service was free of ugly incidents is a testament to you, your comrades, and your leadership. It does not, however, turn into liars those who say they saw ugly incidents in their units.... and, who, I have discovered, have saved for decades polaroids of they and their buddies burning hootches, manhandling villages, beating captured guerrillas, and in one instance, mutilating enemy dead (that is cutting their heads off, and posing with the heads).
I don't think Mr. Owens wants me to hijack this thread into a refight of the Swift Boat wars, so all I will say is you should be glad you were a sailor in your particular unit, and not an infantryman or marine in numerous other units I could cite where ugly incidents where the norm, not the exception.
Oh, finally, my age has nothing to do with this. I don't remember the Swiftees casting aside the support of characters like Sean Hannity, Rush Limbaugh, Michele Malkin, or Ann Coulter because they were either too young (or supposedly unhealthy) to have served in Vietnam.
Anyway, back to the topic, do you really agree with this nonsensical link between Obama and the bloody Nazis, for pete's sake?
Best Wishes,
Keith Nolan
Posted by: KeithNolan at October 05, 2008 11:03 AM (2iAhy)
38
One other thing, Mack, and Tom and Will. I don't believe what I want to believe (that is, negative things about the conduct of certain units in Vietnam) because of some liberal bias or whatever. I used to be a certified Republican, whose bias was decidedly pro-military. It took years of being bashed over the head by ugly story after ugly story from Vietnam veterans, and ugly photo after ugly photo, before I was willing to be a bit more objective, and conceed that, yes, even corn-fed American Boys can do some rotten things under the pressure of combat and body-count-obsessed leadership. In other words, it was Vietnam veterans who turned my thinking on its head (and long before Campaign 2004), not some predisposition to Leftist cant.
Anyway, back to the Nazi nonsense!
Anyway, back to the Nazi nonsense!
Posted by: KeithNolan at October 05, 2008 11:08 AM (2iAhy)
39
Keith
Let me be blunt , I don't care what are or were your political affiliations because they are not germane to the discussion at hand . John F Kerry can easily repute the Swifties by releasing his complete SF-180 as well as having the Pentagon release the After Action Reports of a Lt John F Kerry , the commendation that earned him his Silver Star and the injury reports that earned him three Purple Hearts . You are a journalist , yes ? You can ask the Pentagon via FOIA to look at those files and see for yourself .
As for objectivity , I have my doubts because it's common knowledge that during wartime , there are soldiers who would do things that are contrary to orders or exceed those orders and ignoring those orders . In Vietnam , it takes two to tango , care to explain to me why nobody bothers to check on VC and NVA atrocities against their fellow Vietnamese and against American POWs . Heck , ask the prisoners of Hanoi Hilton about their pleasant stay .
Ask for your previous post being against search and destroy missions , hate to tell you this , it's a common tactic in war. You go out and see where the enemy is located , kill them and deny them of their resources to engage war against you , the NVA and VC did it's search it's search and destroy mission during the Vietnam War , it's called the Tet Offensive and in addition to military targets , they also killed innocent civilians who does not sympathetic to their cause . If you want to be objective , do not ignore the rest just because you suddenly found out that not all US servicemen are angels .
Let me be blunt , I don't care what are or were your political affiliations because they are not germane to the discussion at hand . John F Kerry can easily repute the Swifties by releasing his complete SF-180 as well as having the Pentagon release the After Action Reports of a Lt John F Kerry , the commendation that earned him his Silver Star and the injury reports that earned him three Purple Hearts . You are a journalist , yes ? You can ask the Pentagon via FOIA to look at those files and see for yourself .
As for objectivity , I have my doubts because it's common knowledge that during wartime , there are soldiers who would do things that are contrary to orders or exceed those orders and ignoring those orders . In Vietnam , it takes two to tango , care to explain to me why nobody bothers to check on VC and NVA atrocities against their fellow Vietnamese and against American POWs . Heck , ask the prisoners of Hanoi Hilton about their pleasant stay .
Ask for your previous post being against search and destroy missions , hate to tell you this , it's a common tactic in war. You go out and see where the enemy is located , kill them and deny them of their resources to engage war against you , the NVA and VC did it's search it's search and destroy mission during the Vietnam War , it's called the Tet Offensive and in addition to military targets , they also killed innocent civilians who does not sympathetic to their cause . If you want to be objective , do not ignore the rest just because you suddenly found out that not all US servicemen are angels .
Posted by: Will at October 05, 2008 11:50 AM (4sHuN)
40
Will, I don't think this is the place to have this argument. I will say, briefly, that if you think search-and-destroy was the proper military tactic for a war like Vietnam, your main opponent would not be me, but General Creighton Abrams and Lieutenant General Lewis Walt.
Burning people's homes down, and slaughtering their livestock, were not the best ways to show that America was on the the peasants' side and convince them to rally to the GVN.
Burning people's homes down, and slaughtering their livestock, were not the best ways to show that America was on the the peasants' side and convince them to rally to the GVN.
Posted by: KeithNolan at October 05, 2008 02:02 PM (2iAhy)
41
Again , you have not answer my original post about John Kerry . If you could not answer my original questions in regards to John Kerry and the Swifties, what's the point of your succeeding posts then ? What is the point then of raising the Swift Boats ? Is it to silence Obama's critics ?
Again , you have not answer my original post about John Kerry . If you could not answer my original questions in regards to John Kerry and the Swifties, what's the point of your succeeding posts then ? What is the point then of raising the Swift Boats ? Is it to silence Obama's critics ?
Posted by: Will at October 05, 2008 03:05 PM (4sHuN)
42
Okay, Will, if we're gonna hijack this thread, let me ask you a few simple questions:
1.) What was the net result of the search-and-destroy strategy as employed by General Westmoreland from 1965 through 1968?
2.) What exactly happened at My Lai, My Khe, and Son Thang?
3.) More importantly, WHY did it happen?
If you're serious about an exchange of ideas, I'll wait for your reply, and then try to answer your own questions.... questions, by the way, which have been answered a hundred times over to the satisfaction of all but the most locked-down Kerry haters. We're not really covering any new ground here, you know.
And, to repeat my original point, this nonsense about Obama and Hitler is just embarrassing to the GOP.
1.) What was the net result of the search-and-destroy strategy as employed by General Westmoreland from 1965 through 1968?
2.) What exactly happened at My Lai, My Khe, and Son Thang?
3.) More importantly, WHY did it happen?
If you're serious about an exchange of ideas, I'll wait for your reply, and then try to answer your own questions.... questions, by the way, which have been answered a hundred times over to the satisfaction of all but the most locked-down Kerry haters. We're not really covering any new ground here, you know.
And, to repeat my original point, this nonsense about Obama and Hitler is just embarrassing to the GOP.
Posted by: KeithNolan at October 05, 2008 03:52 PM (2iAhy)
43
Will, if we're really gonna have this argument, we gotta do it today. Leaving town at midnight, and won't be near a computer for the next five days.
Posted by: KeithNolan at October 05, 2008 04:00 PM (2iAhy)
44
Again, you are evading the original questions I posted . Just answer the god damn questions that I had posted since the thread was already hijacked by you . Three questions 1) Why haven't John F Kerry release his SF 180 that he promised in 2004 , 2) Why did he stated that he entered Cambodia in December of 1968 and blamed a president who haven't yet assume the office .3) If the Winter soldiers testimony was true , then explain to me why millions of Vietnam vets who served in the war especially front line troops had voiced opposition to those testimonies especially when many of those men served in the same units as those who testified against their conduct during the war .
Three questions , three lousy questions you refuse to answer . As a military historian , you are not in the level of Victor Davis Hanson . Answer the questions that I require and I can let this go . Comprende ??
Three questions , three lousy questions you refuse to answer . As a military historian , you are not in the level of Victor Davis Hanson . Answer the questions that I require and I can let this go . Comprende ??
Posted by: Will at October 05, 2008 04:16 PM (4sHuN)
45
Will, for all the steam coming out of your ears, your original three questions just aren't that interesting. But, okay, here goes:
1.) We've already got all the after-action reports related to Kerry's service, his fitness reports, and the citations and witness statements related to his two valor awards.
In addition, Kerry's personnel file was poured over by a team of reporters, who gleefully reported that the senator's college grades were not so great. But there were no bomb shells in there about dishonorable discharges or the like, one of the rumors peddled by the Swiftees.
What exactly do you think is in a personnel file? Eyewitness testimony from people who served with Kerry as to how badly he was (or was not) injured when he received his Purple Hearts, or the extent (if any) of enemy fire when he received his Bronze Star?!?!
The dirt on Kerry's service (if you want to believe there is dirt to be found) is in the memories of his fellow veterans, not a personnel file.
2.) I don't know what to make of Kerry's tale of crossing into Cambodia on Christmas of '68. Sounds like a sea story to me, an attempt to personalize the fact that, yes, illegal operations were conducted in Cambodia under both LBJ and Nixon. Was Kerry really there? I have no idea. Did U.S. units cross the border under LBJ and Nixon? Repeatedly. Did Nixon conduct an illegal bombing campaign of Cambodia that he tried to hide from the U.S. Congress? Yes.
3.) You are completely confused about the Winter Soldier testimony. I am not aware of any mass uprising of Vietnam veterans who came forward to say, no, I was in the same unit as that Winter Soldier, and none of that happened. I think ONE former Marine did dispute a Winter Soldier account at wintersoldier.com, but the issue was not a war crime, but the manner in which some casualties were evacuated during Operation Dewey Canyon in '69.
Anyway, we know the Winter Soldiers were real veterans because most brought along their discharges, plus PHOTOS of themselves in Vietnam. We also know many of their stories were true because the historical record (official histories, CID reports, the testimony of other veterans) has confirmed their stories: see, for example, the testimony of Winter Soldiers Jamie Henry, Scott Moore, Robert Kruch, Mike McCusker, Jim Umenhofer, etc., etc., etc.
Gee, satisfied?
Oh, and thanks for the insult regarding my work vs that of Victor Davis Hanson. Wasn't aware that you'd read my books. I might also point out that whatever Hanson's excellence in ancient history, his writings on Vietnam are studded with inaccuracies. For example, in one book, he refers repeatedly to the Marines liberating the Cholon section of Saigon during the Tet Offensive, even going so far to identify the actual unit involved, the 3/7th Infantry, 199th LIB, US Army, as an element of the U.S. Marine Corps!
Hanson also repeats canards about the Battle for Ben Tre (again, during Tet) that defy the contemporary and historical record, but simply come from a revisionist piece of trash called Stolen Valor by B.G. Burkett. I wouldn't hold Hanson up as some kind of Vietnam expert.
Okay, now answer my questions, or I'll stamp my feet like you and scream and shout.
1.) We've already got all the after-action reports related to Kerry's service, his fitness reports, and the citations and witness statements related to his two valor awards.
In addition, Kerry's personnel file was poured over by a team of reporters, who gleefully reported that the senator's college grades were not so great. But there were no bomb shells in there about dishonorable discharges or the like, one of the rumors peddled by the Swiftees.
What exactly do you think is in a personnel file? Eyewitness testimony from people who served with Kerry as to how badly he was (or was not) injured when he received his Purple Hearts, or the extent (if any) of enemy fire when he received his Bronze Star?!?!
The dirt on Kerry's service (if you want to believe there is dirt to be found) is in the memories of his fellow veterans, not a personnel file.
2.) I don't know what to make of Kerry's tale of crossing into Cambodia on Christmas of '68. Sounds like a sea story to me, an attempt to personalize the fact that, yes, illegal operations were conducted in Cambodia under both LBJ and Nixon. Was Kerry really there? I have no idea. Did U.S. units cross the border under LBJ and Nixon? Repeatedly. Did Nixon conduct an illegal bombing campaign of Cambodia that he tried to hide from the U.S. Congress? Yes.
3.) You are completely confused about the Winter Soldier testimony. I am not aware of any mass uprising of Vietnam veterans who came forward to say, no, I was in the same unit as that Winter Soldier, and none of that happened. I think ONE former Marine did dispute a Winter Soldier account at wintersoldier.com, but the issue was not a war crime, but the manner in which some casualties were evacuated during Operation Dewey Canyon in '69.
Anyway, we know the Winter Soldiers were real veterans because most brought along their discharges, plus PHOTOS of themselves in Vietnam. We also know many of their stories were true because the historical record (official histories, CID reports, the testimony of other veterans) has confirmed their stories: see, for example, the testimony of Winter Soldiers Jamie Henry, Scott Moore, Robert Kruch, Mike McCusker, Jim Umenhofer, etc., etc., etc.
Gee, satisfied?
Oh, and thanks for the insult regarding my work vs that of Victor Davis Hanson. Wasn't aware that you'd read my books. I might also point out that whatever Hanson's excellence in ancient history, his writings on Vietnam are studded with inaccuracies. For example, in one book, he refers repeatedly to the Marines liberating the Cholon section of Saigon during the Tet Offensive, even going so far to identify the actual unit involved, the 3/7th Infantry, 199th LIB, US Army, as an element of the U.S. Marine Corps!
Hanson also repeats canards about the Battle for Ben Tre (again, during Tet) that defy the contemporary and historical record, but simply come from a revisionist piece of trash called Stolen Valor by B.G. Burkett. I wouldn't hold Hanson up as some kind of Vietnam expert.
Okay, now answer my questions, or I'll stamp my feet like you and scream and shout.
Posted by: KeithNolan at October 05, 2008 04:47 PM (2iAhy)
46
Except for the glaring fact that his Naval reserve portion of his SF-180 was not released to those reporters and second , those reporters does not include anybody who had conservative views or should I say , doubt Kerry's story .
2) It's kind of difficult to do an illegal crossing using a Swift boat into Cambodia because a lot of military personnel would be asking too many questions and it's too obvious . If the US military wants to enter Cambodia illegally or covertly , they would use either air assets or just cross the border by walking . A gunboat ain't stealthy especially Vietnam era Swift Boats and the Mekong River was the most watched river by the Americans , Vietnamese , Cambodians and VC/NVA .
3) Why would they , Vietnam veterans in that era was marginalized into being called baby killers , drug addicts and so on and so forth . Besides , who would believe them when they were unpopular to begin with . Hell . lies about the Vietnam war are still currently ongoing .
Pity , you sounded like a kid that was ignored . Maybe someday when you really grow up , we can have a serious conversation about the place of my birth .
2) It's kind of difficult to do an illegal crossing using a Swift boat into Cambodia because a lot of military personnel would be asking too many questions and it's too obvious . If the US military wants to enter Cambodia illegally or covertly , they would use either air assets or just cross the border by walking . A gunboat ain't stealthy especially Vietnam era Swift Boats and the Mekong River was the most watched river by the Americans , Vietnamese , Cambodians and VC/NVA .
3) Why would they , Vietnam veterans in that era was marginalized into being called baby killers , drug addicts and so on and so forth . Besides , who would believe them when they were unpopular to begin with . Hell . lies about the Vietnam war are still currently ongoing .
Pity , you sounded like a kid that was ignored . Maybe someday when you really grow up , we can have a serious conversation about the place of my birth .
Posted by: Will at October 05, 2008 05:08 PM (4sHuN)
47
Whatever, dude.
I answered your questions, now you're blowing mine off because "Pity, you sounded like a kid that was ignored. Maybe somebody when you really grow up, we can have a serious conversation about the place of my birth."
What condescending nonsense.
And what's this weird stuff from you (and Mack) about growing up? To hold a different opinion from you guys is a sign of immaturity?
Like I said: whatever, dude.
You don't know me, haven't read my work, don't really know what you're talking about, and have nothing to offer by way of argument but insults.
Seems we hijacked this thread to no real purpose.
See ya 'round.
I answered your questions, now you're blowing mine off because "Pity, you sounded like a kid that was ignored. Maybe somebody when you really grow up, we can have a serious conversation about the place of my birth."
What condescending nonsense.
And what's this weird stuff from you (and Mack) about growing up? To hold a different opinion from you guys is a sign of immaturity?
Like I said: whatever, dude.
You don't know me, haven't read my work, don't really know what you're talking about, and have nothing to offer by way of argument but insults.
Seems we hijacked this thread to no real purpose.
See ya 'round.
Posted by: KeithNolan at October 05, 2008 05:27 PM (2iAhy)
48
I remember KeithNolan. He believed Beaucamp. Square backed bullets rule! Oh, and when you astroturf you're supposed to start off by calling yourself a "concerned Christian".
As for that video.
Those dudes are:
Creepy.
Creepy.
Three times creepy.
As for that video.
Those dudes are:
Creepy.
Creepy.
Three times creepy.
Posted by: brando at October 05, 2008 07:25 PM (HtuDX)
49
Oh, and when you astroturf you're supposed to start off by calling yourself a "concerned Christian".
Or a "former Republican," which KN did twice... guess he wanted to make sure we caught that part of the astroturf routine.
Or a "former Republican," which KN did twice... guess he wanted to make sure we caught that part of the astroturf routine.
Posted by: C-C-G at October 05, 2008 07:35 PM (fxHiG)
50
Never said I believed Beauchamp. Would never introduce myself as a Christian, since I'm an atheist. And really resent the implication that I would have a reason to lie about having once been a Republican.
What else you know-nothings got?
What else you know-nothings got?
Posted by: KeithNolan at October 05, 2008 07:58 PM (2iAhy)
51
Atheism: a religion even more laughable than the rest. Adherents take it on faith that there are no gods, attempting to prove a negative. If you are so damn sure, please tell me WTF this universe is all about and why you are here.
Posted by: KBK at October 05, 2008 09:15 PM (3iYDC)
52
Oh, you seriously don't realize how silly your argument is.
Fine. I'll explain it. It's become fashionable and predictable for those on the left to use the Fallacy of Conversion. It's a silly, non-logical argument that goes like this:
The speaker says "I used to believe in X".
This is simply a weak form of asserting expertise. The speaker is implying that he has learned about the subject, and now that he is better informed, he has rejected X. Likely paired with calling those that don't agree "know-nothings".
Everybody sees it coming a mile away, and that's why it's so funny.
Heck, I even went to a lowly state school, and I even learned about it in my Principles Of Reasoning class.
If you have an argument to make, then make it. But don't try Fallacy of Conversion and Non Sequitor, and expect folks to not laugh.
C'mon. I bet even you think that's sort of funny.
Maybe not as funny as the Obama S1Ws, but a little bit funny.
Fine. I'll explain it. It's become fashionable and predictable for those on the left to use the Fallacy of Conversion. It's a silly, non-logical argument that goes like this:
The speaker says "I used to believe in X".
This is simply a weak form of asserting expertise. The speaker is implying that he has learned about the subject, and now that he is better informed, he has rejected X. Likely paired with calling those that don't agree "know-nothings".
Everybody sees it coming a mile away, and that's why it's so funny.
Heck, I even went to a lowly state school, and I even learned about it in my Principles Of Reasoning class.
If you have an argument to make, then make it. But don't try Fallacy of Conversion and Non Sequitor, and expect folks to not laugh.
C'mon. I bet even you think that's sort of funny.
Maybe not as funny as the Obama S1Ws, but a little bit funny.
Posted by: brando at October 05, 2008 09:17 PM (HtuDX)
53
Don't feed the trolls, dears. Their posts multiply.
Posted by: Trish at October 05, 2008 09:25 PM (oX9OR)
54
I'd be surprised if they made these pledges without Obama. Imagine if they tried it with Jesse Jackson or __________ [insert name here].
Interestingly, two want to be architects. Even more amazing, one wants to be a chemical engineer.
So good luck to them. They have made public commitments to work hard and learn. We could and often do worse.
Interestingly, two want to be architects. Even more amazing, one wants to be a chemical engineer.
So good luck to them. They have made public commitments to work hard and learn. We could and often do worse.
Posted by: Day 37, After Sarah at October 05, 2008 09:33 PM (wREmy)
55
No, Brando, I use the phrase "know-nothings" in reference to those who literally do not know what they are talking about. Nothing more complicated than that.
My detractors argue that I am lying about having once belonged to the GOP. I think it's kinda rude to tell a stranger he's a liar based on, well, nothing. If I were to label you a believer in X, Y, and Z, when, in fact, I don't know a thing about you, you'd be free to call me a "know-nothing," too.
Anyway, the problem with your post is that I'm not basing any of my arguments on my previous membership in the GOP. My arguments stand alone, or fall alone. I only mentioned belonging to the GOP in telling that anecdote about the different reaction I got when I slapped a Democratic bumper sticker on compared to my old GOP bumber stickers.
What is your point anyway?
And, again, if you want a dialogue, make it snappy, because I'm leaving the world of computers shortly.
My detractors argue that I am lying about having once belonged to the GOP. I think it's kinda rude to tell a stranger he's a liar based on, well, nothing. If I were to label you a believer in X, Y, and Z, when, in fact, I don't know a thing about you, you'd be free to call me a "know-nothing," too.
Anyway, the problem with your post is that I'm not basing any of my arguments on my previous membership in the GOP. My arguments stand alone, or fall alone. I only mentioned belonging to the GOP in telling that anecdote about the different reaction I got when I slapped a Democratic bumper sticker on compared to my old GOP bumber stickers.
What is your point anyway?
And, again, if you want a dialogue, make it snappy, because I'm leaving the world of computers shortly.
Posted by: KeithNolan at October 05, 2008 10:23 PM (2iAhy)
56
KBK, I'm glad you believe in a religion only a bit less "laughable" than atheism--for they're all pretty laughable indeed when you deconstruct their contradictory teachings and stories--but why do you believe there is a point at all to the universe and our place in it? Because it satisfies a pyschological itch in mankind to have structure, order, and purpose?
If you can explain the overarching purpose of man's treadmill existense of war, famine, and disease, I'm all ears.
Also, please explain how religion has served the human race better than scientific advancement, and a philosophy of liberal western democracy in which religion is explicitely separated from government?
I suspect you're something of an atheist, too. I mean, you believe in whatever religion you believe in, which means you don't believe in the other couple hundred religions out there.
Anyway, you and I sound like a couple drunk philosophy students: i.e., neither profound, not fresh in our thoughts.
If you can explain the overarching purpose of man's treadmill existense of war, famine, and disease, I'm all ears.
Also, please explain how religion has served the human race better than scientific advancement, and a philosophy of liberal western democracy in which religion is explicitely separated from government?
I suspect you're something of an atheist, too. I mean, you believe in whatever religion you believe in, which means you don't believe in the other couple hundred religions out there.
Anyway, you and I sound like a couple drunk philosophy students: i.e., neither profound, not fresh in our thoughts.
Posted by: KeithNolan at October 05, 2008 10:31 PM (2iAhy)
57
Trish, dear, trolls are the only thing that make threads like this any fun. What do you want, an echo chamber where everyone agrees with everyone else? Boring!
Posted by: KeithNolan at October 05, 2008 10:32 PM (2iAhy)
58
KN:
Do you believe that JFK wrote some (or all) of the after action reports that resulted in his being awarded medals?
Do you believe that JFK wrote some (or all) of the after action reports that resulted in his being awarded medals?
Posted by: RicardoVerde at October 05, 2008 10:55 PM (PBTsv)
59
Mr. Verde, I'm not sure to what extent Kerry was involved in writing some of the after-action reports after those firefights in the Mekong Delta.
I know the Swiftees would have us believe that Kerry wrote all the reports himself, the implication being that he so puffed up his own part as to catch the eye of his superiors and thus see that they recommended him for valor awards.
This argument falls apart on inspection. First, it implies that Kerry's superiors (Elliott, Hoffman, Zumwalt) were out-of-touch, deskbound officers (they were not) who accepted whatever piece of paper floated under their noses without actually getting out in the field and talking to their junior officers and sailors.
If Kerry was constructing elaborate fantasies on paper, his plans would have fallen apart the first time Elliott, Hoffman, or Zumwalt did what they always did: go and talk with their men about "what happened out there."
Remember, too, that in the two incidents for which Kerry was decorated for valor, numerous other personnel also received medals, each with its own corresponding witness statements.
The military was very liberal with valor awards in Vietnam, but not so liberal that an anonymous junior officer could essentially pin medals on his own chest.
In addition, though opinions are now split about the extent of enemy fire on the day Kerry received his Bronze Star (some who were there remember only mine explosions; others, including some who detest Kerry for his anti-war activities, recall mines and AK-47 fire), no one who was present when Kerry earned his Silver Star has disputed the basic facts of what happened that day in February of '69.
At least, that's my take on the situation.
I know the Swiftees would have us believe that Kerry wrote all the reports himself, the implication being that he so puffed up his own part as to catch the eye of his superiors and thus see that they recommended him for valor awards.
This argument falls apart on inspection. First, it implies that Kerry's superiors (Elliott, Hoffman, Zumwalt) were out-of-touch, deskbound officers (they were not) who accepted whatever piece of paper floated under their noses without actually getting out in the field and talking to their junior officers and sailors.
If Kerry was constructing elaborate fantasies on paper, his plans would have fallen apart the first time Elliott, Hoffman, or Zumwalt did what they always did: go and talk with their men about "what happened out there."
Remember, too, that in the two incidents for which Kerry was decorated for valor, numerous other personnel also received medals, each with its own corresponding witness statements.
The military was very liberal with valor awards in Vietnam, but not so liberal that an anonymous junior officer could essentially pin medals on his own chest.
In addition, though opinions are now split about the extent of enemy fire on the day Kerry received his Bronze Star (some who were there remember only mine explosions; others, including some who detest Kerry for his anti-war activities, recall mines and AK-47 fire), no one who was present when Kerry earned his Silver Star has disputed the basic facts of what happened that day in February of '69.
At least, that's my take on the situation.
Posted by: KeithNolan at October 05, 2008 11:11 PM (2iAhy)
60
Multiply is right. Brevity, dude.
My take on the situation is that those guys can hear the drummer get wicked.
My take on the situation is that those guys can hear the drummer get wicked.
Posted by: brando at October 05, 2008 11:27 PM (HtuDX)
61
Rev Obama would like you yo all have your Kool Aid now.
Posted by: Bandit at October 06, 2008 07:28 AM (/R+6i)
62
Atheism: a religion even more laughable than the rest. Adherents take it on faith that there are no gods, attempting to prove a negative.
Indeed.
What's most logically inconsistent about atheism is that in order to be a "true" atheist, you'd have to know with absolute certainty that at no time, past, present, or future, at any point in the universe, out to the farthest reaches, has there ever been or will there ever be a god. If you knew all that, well... you'd be a god.
Agnosticism is at least logically consistent.
Indeed.
What's most logically inconsistent about atheism is that in order to be a "true" atheist, you'd have to know with absolute certainty that at no time, past, present, or future, at any point in the universe, out to the farthest reaches, has there ever been or will there ever be a god. If you knew all that, well... you'd be a god.
Agnosticism is at least logically consistent.
Posted by: C-C-G at October 06, 2008 07:50 AM (fxHiG)
63
Sorry. I fed the trolls.
Posted by: Trish at October 06, 2008 10:34 AM (oX9OR)
Posted by: brando at October 06, 2008 12:30 PM (qzOby)
65
"Matt, you're an idiot. Alpha Omega is a black fraternity."
That's "Alpha Psi Omega" you're referring to.
That's "Alpha Psi Omega" you're referring to.
Posted by: Granddaddy long Legs at October 06, 2008 01:25 PM (Y9fG5)
66
It's also a pretty good, new Napa winery.
Posted by: brando at October 06, 2008 04:31 PM (qzOby)
67
I can't wait to see the skin heads for MCcain
Posted by: Dan at October 07, 2008 01:26 AM (wh08x)
68
Alpha Omega is a term God uses to define himself! I am black and know both sides of this so called issue! I am a true Christian, whom would never support a WAR, cause guess what Jesus would never condone violence in any way! Here alpha - omega is a fraternity you idiots! it is a reference to the most noble of all lack fraternities,noone would care if these guys were one of those Harvard frats or a bunch of white boys! all you all are doing is showing just how ignorant and racist America really is! they're not saying Obama is God morons, they are sayign it is the beginning and end of ignorance and intolerance in America! Which is what Jesus would want! think about that!
Posted by: RuztyB at October 07, 2008 09:58 AM (+Fsm5)
69
And just so the rest of you Texas rednecks don't know. Singing and chants have been used by celts(white) and bavarians(white) to motivate thier troops for war. In fact, I myself was in the Army for a wonderful 4years before an injury turned me away. And not just any positin i was infantry! We used chants called cadences to motivate ourselves and many of which had very violent conotations. therefore before you ignorant fools and right winged so-called Christians say anything, remeber Jesus was a pacifist and often turned the other cheek to war or violence! Even though our government, and several in the past, have used his name as a stepping stone for war would probably be against it all! Especially the racism! Jesus embraced his fellow man and the many, many different colors and traditions! That was his true message..."Do unto others as you would have them do unto you"
Posted by: RuztyB at October 07, 2008 10:08 AM (+Fsm5)
70
For the record, these children are not in a college ybut a middle school, where their teacher has rightfully suspended.
RuztyB, I think you're more than a little arrogant in professing to know the mind of Jesus. Somehow, I doubt he speaks to you directly.
I also find your racism more than a little annoying.
RuztyB, I think you're more than a little arrogant in professing to know the mind of Jesus. Somehow, I doubt he speaks to you directly.
I also find your racism more than a little annoying.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at October 07, 2008 10:15 AM (HcgFD)
71
You are right confederate yank! they are i high school! but the problem would still be the same if they were all white guys! Besides I am arrogant when it comes to knowing the mind of Jesus! if i recall it was written in a book it think it was called The Bible or something like that Idiot! if you want to know the mind of Christ read The bible, never did Christ condone violence against man unless it was upon himself! And to be honest i'm not racist my wife is white and i have two mixed children i'm an American tride and true! Served my military time pay my taxes! I live the American Dream! You sir are the racist for even thinking i am racist without even knowing me you are the ignorant one sir for supporting a confederacy! You are a separatist not an American!
Posted by: RuztyB at October 07, 2008 10:57 AM (+Fsm5)
72
To set the record straight Mr. Confederate Yankee, I am a Democrat but have very conservative views, pro-life, love guns (Army Boy and hunter, believe Church should be back in schools. I would probably agree with you in several issue discussions, i'm not your typical bitter black man. I am just saying that these "indoctrination" ceremonies you call them are not as they seem. just young men expressing thier freedom. Would you rather they be in your home robbing you?...
Posted by: RuztyB at October 07, 2008 11:20 AM (+Fsm5)
73
Your may be able to quote from the Bible, RuztyB, but you obviously don't understand the theology of the Trinity. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are three-in-one, all composite parts of the whole.
You act as if Jesus died 1970 years ago with everything he knew said, or all that he would know for all time captured on paper during his short 30 years of human life, and without comprehending that as part of the Trinity, he is part of the same God that waged war in Heaven and on Earth in that same Bible. Again... unbelievably arrogant.
You, sir are the one who first began casting slurs, everyone who disagreed with you "Texas rednecks," implying they were racists, without knowing the first thing about them.
As for the name of the blog, my ignorant, racist friend, you could have clicked on the "About" link to find out what it was named, but it apparent that it is far easier for you to label others instead of think.
Your biblical education is as under-served as your secular education, sir, and frankly, I have better things to do than spend any more time in this discussion.
You act as if Jesus died 1970 years ago with everything he knew said, or all that he would know for all time captured on paper during his short 30 years of human life, and without comprehending that as part of the Trinity, he is part of the same God that waged war in Heaven and on Earth in that same Bible. Again... unbelievably arrogant.
You, sir are the one who first began casting slurs, everyone who disagreed with you "Texas rednecks," implying they were racists, without knowing the first thing about them.
As for the name of the blog, my ignorant, racist friend, you could have clicked on the "About" link to find out what it was named, but it apparent that it is far easier for you to label others instead of think.
Your biblical education is as under-served as your secular education, sir, and frankly, I have better things to do than spend any more time in this discussion.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at October 07, 2008 11:38 AM (HcgFD)
74
"I ... believe Church should be back in schools."
I just love all these "conservative Christian" astroturfers and their nonsense. Axelrod's not getting his money's worth from Rutzy-boy, that's for sure.
Rutzy's so pro life that he's carrying water for the most extreme pro-abortion candidate in history. Riiight. I don't mind the lying any more because it comes naturally to 0bama-supporters; after all, it's what their messiah does all the time. I just wish they'd take the trouble to be more clever about it.
I just love all these "conservative Christian" astroturfers and their nonsense. Axelrod's not getting his money's worth from Rutzy-boy, that's for sure.
Rutzy's so pro life that he's carrying water for the most extreme pro-abortion candidate in history. Riiight. I don't mind the lying any more because it comes naturally to 0bama-supporters; after all, it's what their messiah does all the time. I just wish they'd take the trouble to be more clever about it.
Posted by: Nine-of-Diamonds at October 07, 2008 07:44 PM (1aw/n)
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