Biden-Palin Debate Reaction
As has become something of a tendency, I listened to tonight's Vice Presidential debate between Sarah Palin and Joe Biden on CNN, glancing occasionally at the reaction of their undecided voters, while splitting eyeball time between Ace's liveblog and the body language of the candidates.
Frankly, I was impressed with Biden. Given his recent history of unforced errors and obvious gaffes, not to mention his tendency to overestimate his own intelligence and speak condescendingly to his opponents, I thought there was perhaps a 10-percent chance he would meltdown, and instead, he put together a solid performance. Palin, however, clearly won the debate, thanks no doubt to a clever media that has spent the last few weeks belittling and attacking her as some sort of unschooled fanatical hick. By showing up and more than holding her own against expectations, she outpointed Biden convincingly. Granted, this probably doesn't matter. Probably. The media either will spin the debate as a draw, or they will minimize a Palin victory. Also, Veep debates don't usually have much of a long-term impacts on an election. But Palin's win—and it was a clear win—does help re-energize conservatives, and it will reassure voters leaning towards McCain that she does indeed have the ability to handle herself, and if needed, the country. At least some of those voters now comfortable that Sarah Palin could lead if called upon are also going to note that she has more executive experience and proven leadership experience than Barack Obama, the man who leads the opposing ticket. The media will try to make sure that message doesn't get out, but it doesn't make the freshman Senator's paper-thin resume any more impressive.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at 10:42 PM
Comments
1
Joe had to leave us gaffing. "Bosniacs"
Posted by: Chuck Simmins at October 02, 2008 10:43 PM (X1w6y)
2
There were two sides to the relentless bashing she was getting in the MSM these past weeks. Yes, it made Palin look especially good - but it also exposed Kouric and the rest of them as the biased water-carriers they are. You can fool some of the people some of the time ...
Posted by: Willmoore Kendall at October 02, 2008 11:09 PM (a+DJ7)
3
You obviously saw, both in Ms. Palin's performance and in the debate as a whole, what you wanted to see. To you, she won the debate handily. Good for you.
Little mistakes she made, like repeating the well refuted tax slander against the Obama plan (just check with Politifact or Factcheck.org), or the misrepresenting other positions, and a very incomplete and distorted view of what the role of the VP is according to the constitution, she did ok. It doesn't matter that she believes she has never changed her mind since she entered politics; Just like our current president, she is incapable of growth, as growth involves change.
Writing as a person with a verbal/visual learning disability (dyslexia) I can understand how, under stress, the wrong word, or a completely new one, might come out when thinking the right one. Don't go after Biden on that one.
Little mistakes she made, like repeating the well refuted tax slander against the Obama plan (just check with Politifact or Factcheck.org), or the misrepresenting other positions, and a very incomplete and distorted view of what the role of the VP is according to the constitution, she did ok. It doesn't matter that she believes she has never changed her mind since she entered politics; Just like our current president, she is incapable of growth, as growth involves change.
Writing as a person with a verbal/visual learning disability (dyslexia) I can understand how, under stress, the wrong word, or a completely new one, might come out when thinking the right one. Don't go after Biden on that one.
Posted by: Daniel Glasser at October 02, 2008 11:27 PM (QDUp3)
Posted by: Richard Romano at October 02, 2008 11:35 PM (kycO9)
5
Why do you say Palin clearly won the debate?
Posted by: ann cannon at October 02, 2008 11:39 PM (iJIDI)
6
"just check with Politifact or Factcheck.org)"
I don't recognize one of those and don't trust the other.
Wait! I got a better idea! Let's listen to the tapes!
I don't recognize one of those and don't trust the other.
Wait! I got a better idea! Let's listen to the tapes!
Posted by: Larry Sheldon at October 02, 2008 11:39 PM (OmeRL)
7
She did well. Her job in this debate was to destroy the perceptions of not being qualified, not intelligent, not polished, etc...
Biden's job was to keep both feet out of his mouth, which he accomplished.
As to the perception of a winner, Palin was more conversational and Biden more professorial. On that note, Palin won the perception debate.
The fun will begin with the headlines and stories in the papers tomorrow.
Biden's job was to keep both feet out of his mouth, which he accomplished.
As to the perception of a winner, Palin was more conversational and Biden more professorial. On that note, Palin won the perception debate.
The fun will begin with the headlines and stories in the papers tomorrow.
Posted by: Mark at October 02, 2008 11:45 PM (w/olL)
8
Bidens 14 confirmed lies should send him to the dog house and Hussein O to the bottom of the charts, but the Lame Stream Media will never report them. Maybe McCain should adopt one of Hussien O's Nazi tactics and tell the media clowns that their license's will not be in trouble when he's elected, they will be gone.
Where the he** did Slow Joe get that the idea (he stated it as fact) the terrorists have been kicked out of Lebanon. It's more like the elected government has been kicked underground, some of them dead in the process. Terrorists run Lebanon.
Where the he** did Slow Joe get that the idea (he stated it as fact) the terrorists have been kicked out of Lebanon. It's more like the elected government has been kicked underground, some of them dead in the process. Terrorists run Lebanon.
Posted by: Scrapiron at October 02, 2008 11:52 PM (I4yBD)
Posted by: Conservative CBU at October 02, 2008 11:52 PM (M+Vfm)
10
How can you possibly say that Palin misstated Hussein O's tax policy or any other policy. There is no way to keep up with Hussein's position on anything. He changes postition on every issue hourly. That's the only change you'll ever see from him, that which benefits Hussein, and the he** with the people of this country. Hussein O and Biden are a good match, both liars to the core.
Posted by: Scrapiron at October 02, 2008 11:56 PM (I4yBD)
11
Indeed, Palin won the debate and won it convincingly. However, unlike the moaning of dem. hatchet men/women and weak-kneed conservative pundits, this isn't in the least surprising.
Give me the editing facilities of a major network, combined with their overwhelming, blatantly obvious liberal bias, and I could make the most brilliant physicist on the planet appear to know nothing at all about science. It takes little work or intellect (just a complete lack of ethics and a great deal of bad will) to make a smart, capable, poised, quick-witted, decent woman like Sarah Palin look less than smart and capable. Of course, the media can also make poor excuses for humanity, and second class intellects like Charlie Gibson and Katie Couric look intelligent, such are the wonders of technology.
Given no media filter, it was a foregone conclusion that Palin would appear as exactly what she is, and that she would do what she is manifestly capable of doing. Did anyone, by the way, catch Ifel's little shot at Palin after Palin talked about extra credit for kids watching the debate? Ifel said that everyone gets extra credit tonight. Gotta help Biden any way we can, don't we? It would also be interesting to get a comparison of facial closeup time for the respective candidates when their opponents were speaking. I got the impression that Palin had more face time there, apparently because the media was hoping to catch her doing something untoward. Sorry, media trolls; she was a total professional--no Gore-like idiocy. On the other hand, I had the impression they were trying to minimize exposure of Biden's idiotic grins and smirks. Anyone else? I wonder what the Bosniacs think?
Give me the editing facilities of a major network, combined with their overwhelming, blatantly obvious liberal bias, and I could make the most brilliant physicist on the planet appear to know nothing at all about science. It takes little work or intellect (just a complete lack of ethics and a great deal of bad will) to make a smart, capable, poised, quick-witted, decent woman like Sarah Palin look less than smart and capable. Of course, the media can also make poor excuses for humanity, and second class intellects like Charlie Gibson and Katie Couric look intelligent, such are the wonders of technology.
Given no media filter, it was a foregone conclusion that Palin would appear as exactly what she is, and that she would do what she is manifestly capable of doing. Did anyone, by the way, catch Ifel's little shot at Palin after Palin talked about extra credit for kids watching the debate? Ifel said that everyone gets extra credit tonight. Gotta help Biden any way we can, don't we? It would also be interesting to get a comparison of facial closeup time for the respective candidates when their opponents were speaking. I got the impression that Palin had more face time there, apparently because the media was hoping to catch her doing something untoward. Sorry, media trolls; she was a total professional--no Gore-like idiocy. On the other hand, I had the impression they were trying to minimize exposure of Biden's idiotic grins and smirks. Anyone else? I wonder what the Bosniacs think?
Posted by: Mike at October 03, 2008 12:02 AM (gP3FO)
12
It was inevitable that Palin would do as good as she did, given all the media attention on her gaffes for last week or so. But to assume on that , that she is anywhere near becoming President is plain moronic.
But thats what we will get in the end of day. Did you miss that she had no answer, none, nada, zilch which was not recited ? Can you believe she just said she agreed with Dick in extending her powers as VP ? and all that folksy stuff.. Guys I agree most of you think "she is so like me, thats the american dream, where anyone can become what he want" Well here is surprise : If you are as dimwitted as Palin you ought not become the President of this country. Anyone can be aspiring to get to highest position, that applies to Obama who has struggled to get where he is not Palin who was handpicked to just appease Women and catholic base.. ( btw did you notice she supports gay rights and oh my god.... HAS A GAY FRIEND!!)
But thats what we will get in the end of day. Did you miss that she had no answer, none, nada, zilch which was not recited ? Can you believe she just said she agreed with Dick in extending her powers as VP ? and all that folksy stuff.. Guys I agree most of you think "she is so like me, thats the american dream, where anyone can become what he want" Well here is surprise : If you are as dimwitted as Palin you ought not become the President of this country. Anyone can be aspiring to get to highest position, that applies to Obama who has struggled to get where he is not Palin who was handpicked to just appease Women and catholic base.. ( btw did you notice she supports gay rights and oh my god.... HAS A GAY FRIEND!!)
Posted by: Jed at October 03, 2008 12:15 AM (i+/J9)
13
How's that Barakoolaid tastin' there Jed?
Posted by: Conservative CBU at October 03, 2008 12:19 AM (M+Vfm)
14
Well, I was definately impressed by Palin's performance. After the media had spent the past week casting Biden as the bully, Palin it turns out was the one throwing the punches. Given she couldn't answer a simple question, she did an excellent job allowing America to see that she is just an average hockey mom. Noting More. Do we really want just an average person in one of the most powerfull positions in the world? You betcha! NOT!!!
I mean come on, she was reading directly off her notes in one of her rants. I will say though, she has come along way from the Couric interview.
Biden, on the other hand, didn't particularly connect with the people, but he knew most of his facts and most importantly answered every question. Do we want a vice president who listens to the people and answers our questions, or do we want a president who shys away from difficult questions and resorts to catchy, substance free speeches. Honestly, what substantive information did Palin share with America tonight? That she infact could sort of think on her feet??
Finally, for all those who enjoy Palin's word choice, do you guys really like being talked to like uneducated Americans? The woman is running for the vice presidency, I really hope she can speak a bit more formally to other world leaders.
Anyways, she did better than I expected
I mean come on, she was reading directly off her notes in one of her rants. I will say though, she has come along way from the Couric interview.
Biden, on the other hand, didn't particularly connect with the people, but he knew most of his facts and most importantly answered every question. Do we want a vice president who listens to the people and answers our questions, or do we want a president who shys away from difficult questions and resorts to catchy, substance free speeches. Honestly, what substantive information did Palin share with America tonight? That she infact could sort of think on her feet??
Finally, for all those who enjoy Palin's word choice, do you guys really like being talked to like uneducated Americans? The woman is running for the vice presidency, I really hope she can speak a bit more formally to other world leaders.
Anyways, she did better than I expected
Posted by: Anonymous at October 03, 2008 12:20 AM (lCJA0)
15
Hey Chuck, um, yeah, "Bosniaks": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosniaks
Better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than to open it and remove all doubt.
Better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than to open it and remove all doubt.
Posted by: Dan at October 03, 2008 12:24 AM (a6aJD)
16
Hey Chuck Simmins, they're CORRECTLY referred to as "Bosniacs", you frickin' moron. I've served there & Biden's been there, whereas you would undoubtedly have a rough time even finding the region on a map.
Posted by: Todd at October 03, 2008 12:29 AM (0JQYH)
17
As my wife pointed out, if all she did for the past few days was cram for this debate like a test, she could have pulled off what Palin did tonight. I know most of you have such a hatred of Obama that you'll reject this as "elitist" or that we're drinking the kool aid (like you're not Conservative CBU? Please) but this woman didn't know anything except what was on her notecards. Asked what her Achilles Heel was, she launched into some non-sequiter about education and gave a "shout out" like she was on "America's Got Talent" or "Deal or No Deal." Laughable, if she wasn't so close to the Presidency.
But I always can take heart in this. If McCain does not make it through his term and she becomes President, guess who the VP is? Nancy Peslosi. Now THAT, my friends, would be be fun to watch!
But I always can take heart in this. If McCain does not make it through his term and she becomes President, guess who the VP is? Nancy Peslosi. Now THAT, my friends, would be be fun to watch!
Posted by: LR at October 03, 2008 12:35 AM (Gk3jY)
18
I don't see the Palin victory. 1)She still can't answer a question that's put to her. She has a very bad habit of either answering a question that wasn't asked or giving short shrift to the question asked and then talking about something off-subject. Numerous times in the debate it was like " I don't know anything about this. Let me shift my answer to something they drilled me on." 2) She has a pronounced tendency of resorting to buzzwords and catchphrases when she has nothing substantiative to say. How many times do we have to hear "maverick", "ramped/heated up", "lead us to victory", "hockey mom", etc? You'd swear there's a pull string coming out of her back. 3)Someone who can't even pronounce "nuclear" has no business being around anything nuclear (see: George Bush). 4) Her tired attempts at "folksy, gosh-darndedness" mirrored McClain's condescending "Senator Obama just doesn't understand" comments in their debate. Those tactics are no substitute for concise, straightforward, informative answers. She also shares (to a lesser extent) McClain's strained smile/grimace when the debate's not going her way.
She's got personality, I'll give her that. But she's no Veep, let alone a potential (especially given McClain's age) President. Face it, she's no Hillary Clinton and the McClain team's transparent ploy is blowing up in their faces daily, even among women. (Can you imagine her debating Hillary and Hillary not having to hold back for fear of appearing chauvinistic or like a bully? She'd be slaughtered. Of course, if Hillary WERE Obama's running mate, Palin wouldn't be McClain's.)
She's got personality, I'll give her that. But she's no Veep, let alone a potential (especially given McClain's age) President. Face it, she's no Hillary Clinton and the McClain team's transparent ploy is blowing up in their faces daily, even among women. (Can you imagine her debating Hillary and Hillary not having to hold back for fear of appearing chauvinistic or like a bully? She'd be slaughtered. Of course, if Hillary WERE Obama's running mate, Palin wouldn't be McClain's.)
Posted by: Magus1986 at October 03, 2008 12:49 AM (od21S)
19
Thank god she's no Hillary Clinton. One is too many for our country already. I'm not a huge fan of Palin being so close to the presidency, but when given the alternative of actually *voting* for Obama, who has less credible experience and uses even more buzzwords and empty rhetoric (how many times can you say the word Change without defining it in terms that don't raise everyone's taxes?), I'll take Palin as VP anyday. Biden is far better a choice for the Democrats if they wanted to appeal to moderate voters. But they don't. The liberal whack-job ticket is so far left they're clamoring just to sustain the appearance of moderates. That's the only reason Biden is on the ticket at all, because he's not an out-and-out communist.
Posted by: Me at October 03, 2008 02:39 AM (Y2bu2)
20
Palin won the debate "handily"? Were we watching the same debate? She constantly wandered off topic, parroted her obvious over-coaching, used cartoonish colloquialisms and showed little command of the topics under discussion esp in foreign policy. It was like Biden was debating a Stepford candidate.
Posted by: chris lee at October 03, 2008 05:47 AM (Ah8Kf)
21
Anyone who thinks Palin answered even one of the questions posed did not listen to her answers or ignored the questions.
Posted by: Truthsaying Bastard Spider at October 03, 2008 06:36 AM (s1iPl)
22
Spider, the moderator did not ask one question concerning the dem. created energy crisis. the days of dems like couric, ifill, and gibson setting the rules of what Palin may and may not talk about ended yesterday.
"it's a fresh wind that blows against the empire".
"it's a fresh wind that blows against the empire".
Posted by: veblensbastardchild at October 03, 2008 07:07 AM (Cto5S)
23
Palin sounded like she was struggling during an interview... dodging questions, failing to be convincing and constantly relying on her small town hockey mom references and family values as if they actually stand for anything at this stage of the game.
Biden came across as the professional and actually sounded like he believes in what can be achieved with Obama... you can't possibly say the same for the McCain/Palin relationship.
Biden came across as the professional and actually sounded like he believes in what can be achieved with Obama... you can't possibly say the same for the McCain/Palin relationship.
Posted by: Gar at October 03, 2008 07:17 AM (rixgi)
24
Just as in the last debate, we clearly weren't watching the same thing. CY sees what he wants to see and nothing more. Not that I'm saying Biden won me over either, but at least he appeared to have a clue. Lets face it, McCain clearly made a piss-poor choice for a VP and it may just cost him the election. Just being Republican doesn't make her acceptable even for someone who always votes Republican. As for Willmoore's comments about "biased water-carriers" who knows, maybe they are, but lets face it, she should have been able to answer the names of what newspapers she reads without sounding like a blithering idiot. As VP or even president she would have to answer much tougher questions from more intimidating people than Katie Couric for crying out loud.
Posted by: ScubaSteve at October 03, 2008 07:27 AM (zqzYV)
25
you're diving deep steve.
Posted by: veblensbastardchild at October 03, 2008 08:19 AM (Cto5S)
26
"Lets face it, McCain clearly made a piss-poor choice for a VP and it may just cost him the election."
Okay sure. Because you say so? Lets face it, you clearly think your opinion on Palin is fact.
Okay sure. Because you say so? Lets face it, you clearly think your opinion on Palin is fact.
Posted by: Robby at October 03, 2008 09:25 AM (D+TTb)
27
I wanted so much to be swayed in a positive direction towards Palin, but that performance convinced me that the Republicans have completely lost their way. I kept feeling that I was watching a local news anchor, and half expected her to ask what the weather forecast was for the upcoming weekend. Her "shout outs" and "hockey mom" references made me want to throw my shoe through my TV. I remember a time when I would not have given a thought to voting anything but Republican, however I am sickened that this is the best the party could come up with.
Posted by: Patrick L at October 03, 2008 09:41 AM (7wyw4)
28
ScubaSteve, are you a concerned Conservative Christian too?
Posted by: doubleplusundead at October 03, 2008 09:55 AM (5TQen)
29
You *know* Patrick L is...
Posted by: doubleplusundead at October 03, 2008 09:56 AM (5TQen)
30
Pretty hilarious to hear complaints on Palin's familiarity with the issues when the guy who is supposed to be some kind of Democrat elder statesman demonstrates abysmal ignorance of the Constitution both in it's Legislative and Executive articles and of the offices he seeks or even holds. Biden is, frankly, the stupidest player on our national stage. This guy is a disgrace to the Democrats and to our nation on competence and basic smarts but also ethically. Biden is a graft artist like Frank and Dodd; boldly feathering his own nest and those of his family/cronies with public loot. As such he fits well with the racist and fascist thug from Chicago. But it must be admitted, even with all these handicaps Slow Joe managed to steal a stunning victory... over George W Bush. Shame he isn't running. At the last debate there was the possiblity of Barry facing an empty podium. Sadly for historians it didn't happen then but Palin faced that situation last night. At best, Team Obama voted "Present" on this one, as they prefer to do.
Posted by: megapotamus at October 03, 2008 10:12 AM (LF+qW)
31
"Okay sure. Because you say so? Lets face it, you clearly think your opinion on Palin is fact."
Please show me otherwise, I'm open-minded and welcome any facts to show my opinion is wrong. More so I would love to hear it from Palin herself without sounding like she's reading from her "Mavrick McCain" brochure. I Haven't seen one thing in the past weeks that shows me anything more than Palin's selection as a marketing scheme aimed at picking up the former Clinton supporters simply because she is female. Believe me, I would love to feel differently, but based on what I've seen I can't.
"ScubaSteve, are you a concerned Conservative Christian too?"
Concerned? Hell yes. Conservative Christian? No.
Please show me otherwise, I'm open-minded and welcome any facts to show my opinion is wrong. More so I would love to hear it from Palin herself without sounding like she's reading from her "Mavrick McCain" brochure. I Haven't seen one thing in the past weeks that shows me anything more than Palin's selection as a marketing scheme aimed at picking up the former Clinton supporters simply because she is female. Believe me, I would love to feel differently, but based on what I've seen I can't.
"ScubaSteve, are you a concerned Conservative Christian too?"
Concerned? Hell yes. Conservative Christian? No.
Posted by: ScubaSteve at October 03, 2008 10:12 AM (zqzYV)
32
When the guy who has spent more than half his life in the Senate has to constantly lie (14 lie cited above) to make it through the debate and make his ticket look good, I'd say the newcomer wins. Especially when the newcomer pulls her punches on responsibility for the financial crisis, one of the McCain/Palin ticket's strongest talking points which we'll no doubt be seeing after the House bailout vote. Ifill doesn't ask one question on the Democrat created energy crisis? What's up with that?
Gteasy Joe lies and spins as usual to sound good, but if you look behind the curtan you realize that as usual there's nothing there. That's why his own party doesn't trust him in any non-seniority leadership positions.
Gteasy Joe lies and spins as usual to sound good, but if you look behind the curtan you realize that as usual there's nothing there. That's why his own party doesn't trust him in any non-seniority leadership positions.
Posted by: daleyrocks at October 03, 2008 10:45 AM (i/fLn)
33
Based on last night's debate, there's a new dictionary entry this morning:
BS = Biden Says
h/t Ace
BS = Biden Says
h/t Ace
Posted by: daleyrocks at October 03, 2008 11:04 AM (i/fLn)
34
Win or lose this election, I think Sarah Palin will be a political force for quite awhile.
Posted by: toby928 at October 03, 2008 11:42 AM (PD1tk)
35
Of course, Steve thinks that it's normal for a professor of constitutional law, as Biden claims to be, to quote the Constitution incorrectly.
Also, Steve, do you support Biden and Obama's desire for people to buy a house they can't afford, declare bankruptcy, and have all or part of the mortgage debt canceled? Why do you support this sort of irresponsible financial behavior?
Also, Steve, do you support Biden and Obama's desire for people to buy a house they can't afford, declare bankruptcy, and have all or part of the mortgage debt canceled? Why do you support this sort of irresponsible financial behavior?
Posted by: North Dallas Thirty at October 03, 2008 11:48 AM (E3Yxq)
36
Sarah Palin is spunky and folksy - but lacks substance, honesty, and any real critical thinking. Remind anyone a little of our current commander? Is this what we really need in the White House? The rest of the world thinks we're reckless "cowboys"...I don't think we need a reckless hockey mom in one of the most important positions in our country. Let's get real...
Posted by: Suzi at October 03, 2008 11:52 AM (MrPve)
37
Joe Biden has so much knowledge, experience, HEART as a legislator and human being. One could trust him with one's life and one's country.
Palin is smooth, feisty, attractive - but not that trustworthy. She answers when/what she likes. I would hate to have a contract with her - with everything reinterpreted to suit her. - Lack of knowledge, lack of caring - would heighten the mess the country is already in.
Palin is smooth, feisty, attractive - but not that trustworthy. She answers when/what she likes. I would hate to have a contract with her - with everything reinterpreted to suit her. - Lack of knowledge, lack of caring - would heighten the mess the country is already in.
Posted by: betsylove at October 03, 2008 11:55 AM (o8J2J)
38
Dallas, at what point in either of my posts do you hear me supporting Obama/Biden? My complaint is about Palin not being the right person for the Republican VP, not support for the Democrats. Let's be real here, my opinion is that John McCain is the better suited person to be president, but Palin has no business in the White House whatsoever. I don't believe that we should support just anyone because we like their party. Look at what it's done for us the last 8 years.
Posted by: ScubaSteve at October 03, 2008 12:04 PM (zqzYV)
39
It's interesting that the person who has been the most honest is the one being denigrated as "untrustworthy" while the one who has constantly lied is praised for his honesty.
I wouldn't trust Joe Biden to mail a letter.
I wouldn't trust Joe Biden to mail a letter.
Posted by: Trish at October 03, 2008 12:16 PM (YpXvJ)
40
Steve, if your objections to Palin are on experience or the other calling cards of the Washington species you find of course that the Dems Numero Uno is actually WORSE on that score than Palin, who is the Reps #2. This is the tactical crux of the Palin pick, it encourages Barry to run against Palin and on his weakest terrain. Judgements here are not absolute but relative as elections are binary events and head-to-head, Palin beats Biden on every aspect. Biden is a fool on his best day. His continued political career is testament to the kindness and forebearance of the Delaware electorate and not to his merits because there are none. But none of that matters as Barry takes the bait and runs against Palin. No one is running against Biden and his efforts to run for himself are unavailing because of that dang stupidity. Can't get past that like you can't polish ugly, so the net effect is a double-team on The One. Biden has done, at best, nothing for Barry and no one can say that of Palin for McCain. Net points to Team McC. The astroturfers above, blaring the virtues of this stump of a man had best get their talking points together. Contracts? You obviously know or care nothing of the Biden record on corruption. This guy is as dirty as they come though less than Barry. Barack is sui generis; a true prodigy. Heart? That one's a joke, right? Biden's charitable giving is on the public record. Is it good? Like those of Barry, the virtues of Joe are declared in spite of available evidence and when new, more damning evidence intrudes, they are declared more loudly.
Posted by: megapotamus at October 03, 2008 12:27 PM (LF+qW)
41
McCain is a good man. I wish he was younger for this situation b/c he is getting up there and getting worn out.
Get ready to have Sarah Palin as your president and leader of the free world.
Get ready to have Sarah Palin as your president and leader of the free world.
Posted by: EJ at October 03, 2008 12:36 PM (zGWlx)
42
Biden kept mentioning a middle class tax cut, as has Obama. Reminds me of the 1992 promise by Bill Clinton to cut taxes for the middle class. But then when he took office, he immediately raised taxes on the middle class.
(I just can't imagine Pelosi and Reid sending a tax cut package to a President Obama in the first place).
Biden (and Obama) also keep mentioning the "100 million" who didn't get a tax cut. Where is the fact checking that 48% of Americans don't pay income taxes at all? Maybe they mean sending more tax dollars to people who don't pay taxes.
(I just can't imagine Pelosi and Reid sending a tax cut package to a President Obama in the first place).
Biden (and Obama) also keep mentioning the "100 million" who didn't get a tax cut. Where is the fact checking that 48% of Americans don't pay income taxes at all? Maybe they mean sending more tax dollars to people who don't pay taxes.
Posted by: muck at October 03, 2008 01:07 PM (dE5CK)
43
You know, I wouldn't care if they had a half trained chimp up there instead or Sarah Palin. The bottom line is that with B. Hussein in the White house and Pelosi and Reid in Congress, you can kiss any resemblance of the America I grew up in BYE-BYE. These libs are the "flower child" dope smokers and SDS protesters of the 60s. They want to destroy this land and make it a commie commune. I really don't think the founding fathers had that kind of future for us in mind. Neither do I, damn it! Vote McCain/Palin !!!
Posted by: Tonto (USA) at October 03, 2008 03:33 PM (Qv1xF)
44
You people are seriously dreaming if yo think Palin was even close. Yes, she did better than expected, but c'mon; she couldn't even answer a straight question the whole 1st half! And talk about lies? What debate were you watching Doing better than expected has kinda raised expectations that she actually won, but take it easy and 1 step back. Your party loyalty is showing! Not only was McCain the begrudging Reoblican choice (they've pretty much concieded this presidency for lack of a "good" candidate in their eyes), but Palin's repeating of "all things energy" was just stupid. Well-coached, but stupid. We all got a taste of what she's realy like uncoached, didn't we!
Posted by: GET REAL at October 03, 2008 03:58 PM (IDoHr)
45
“When we kicked — along with France, we kicked Hezbollah out of Lebanon, I said and Barack said, “Move NATO forces in there. Fill the vacuum, because if you don’t know — if you don’t, Hezbollah will control it.” Now what’s happened? Hezbollah is a legitimate part of the government in the country immediately to the north of Israel.”
WTF !! This is worse that Gerry Ford's gaffe about Poland and Eastern Europe were not under the domination of the Soviet Union.
WTF !! This is worse that Gerry Ford's gaffe about Poland and Eastern Europe were not under the domination of the Soviet Union.
Posted by: Neo at October 03, 2008 04:05 PM (Yozw9)
46
Palin won? Are you kidding me? Look, to squash all the Republican rhetoric about Obama not admitting "we had a victory", or the the "surge worked", or al lthe other "we're winning paltry justifications for continuing to kill American soldiers, all you Dems need to say is: "well, if all these things are true, and we have our victory, we won, yadda-yadda WHY ARE WE STILL THERE?!!! It's the penultimate Republican gaffe! We have too many eggs in 1 Iraqi basket when there's too many things going on in the world that need addressing (resources, man-power, and intelligence efforts from which thsi whole war-mongering is detracting). We need an intelligent, cool-headed, even-tempered man who won't continue to piss the rest of the world off and won't panick with knee-jerk reactions when things get tough, and can manage more than 1 crisis at once without holding is aching geriatric head and shutting everything else down because he can't be multiphasic like a president needs to be! People please; your loyalty is commendable (as "GET REAL" put it), but snap out of it! Put your energies into a better candidate next time around, 'cause it's over now!
Posted by: PUH-LEASE at October 03, 2008 04:11 PM (fvslN)
47
Taken from
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7649833.stm
Facts and figures were flying around in the debate between US vice-presidential candidates Joe Biden and Sarah Palin.
The BBC News website took a look to see which claims were accurate.
THE US COMMANDER IN AFGHANISTAN
Claim: Joe Biden said that the US "commanding general in Afghanistan said the surge principle in Iraq will not work in Afghanistan". Sarah Palin responded by saying that "McClellan did not say definitively the surge principles would not work in Afghanistan".
Fact: On 2 October, the Washington Post quoted the head of the Nato-led coalition in Afghanistan, Gen David McKiernan, as saying: "The word I don't use for Afghanistan is 'surge'."
Verdict: Mrs Palin not only got the name of the US commander in Afghanistan wrong, but it would seem she also distorted his position.
IRAQ'S BUDGET SURPLUS
Claim: Joe Biden said that "Iraqis have an $80bn surplus".
Fact: According to Factcheck.org, this is "an out-of-date projection. The Iraqis currently have $29bn in the bank, and could have $47bn to $59bn by the end of the year."
Verdict: Joe Biden is guilty of using out-of-date figures, but his substantive point - that the Iraqis have resources to "spend their own money... to take their own responsibility" - still holds.
OBAMA'S READINESS TO BE PRESIDENT
Claim: Sarah Palin reminded Joe Biden of his statement during the Democratic primaries that Barack Obama "was not ready to be commander in chief".
Fact: Joe Biden did indeed say this, on 19 August, 2007, in a TV debate between the various Democratic presidential hopefuls.
Verdict: Mrs Palin's quote was perfectly accurate. (However, Mr Biden did rethink his position. By May 2008 - before Mr Obama had sewn up the nomination, and before he had picked Mr Biden to be his running-mate - he was claiming that Mr Obama had "learned a hell of a lot".)
MCCAIN'S SUB-PRIME SURPRISE
Claim: Joe Biden pointed out that "John McCain said as early as last December, quote - I'm paraphrasing - 'I'm surprised about this subprime mortgage crisis'".
Fact: In a 4 November interview with a New Hampshire newspaper, the Keene Sentinel, John McCain said "I'd like to tell you I did anticipate [the mortgage crisis], but I have to give you straight talk, I did not".
Verdict: Mr Biden's paraphrase is a fair reflection of Mr McCain's words, although he got the date wrong by a month.
BIDEN'S SUPPORT FOR MCCAIN'S IRAQ POSITION
Claim: Sarah Palin said that Joe Biden "had supported John McCain's military strategies [in Iraq] pretty adamantly until this race".
Fact: Jonathan Weisman of the Washington Post characterises Mr Biden as "an outspoken opponent of... troop increases in Iraq as soon as Bush announced them after the 2006 elections". As Foreign Relations Committee Chairman, he led the most heated hearings before the troops were actually deployed.
Verdict: Mrs Palin's claim is untrue. Mr Biden opposed the surge - of which Mr McCain was a prominent proponent - long before the beginning of the presidential campaign, and maintained this position throughout the race.
MCCAIN ON SPAIN
Claim: Joe Biden asserted that "John McCain said as recently as a couple of weeks ago he wouldn't even sit down with the government of Spain".
Fact: John McCain, in an interview with a Spanish-language radio station, refused to commit to a meeting with the Spanish Prime Minister, saying only that he "would be willing to meet with those leaders who are our friends and want to work with us in a cooperative fashion".
Many observers said at the time that Mr McCain's answer was based on a mishearing of the question he had been asked (which had followed a series of questions about America's relationship with diplomatic foes in Latin America).
But a McCain campaign aide later confirmed that "the questioner asked several times about Senator McCain's willingness to meet [Spanish PM] Zapatero - and ID'd him in the question so there is no doubt Senator McCain knew exactly to whom the question referred. Senator McCain refused to commit to a White House meeting with President Zapatero in this interview."
Verdict: While it would have been true for Mr Biden to say that Mr McCain had signalled (whether intentionally or not) a cooling in relations with Spain, Mr McCain did not rule out a meeting with the Spanish prime minister.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7649833.stm
Facts and figures were flying around in the debate between US vice-presidential candidates Joe Biden and Sarah Palin.
The BBC News website took a look to see which claims were accurate.
THE US COMMANDER IN AFGHANISTAN
Claim: Joe Biden said that the US "commanding general in Afghanistan said the surge principle in Iraq will not work in Afghanistan". Sarah Palin responded by saying that "McClellan did not say definitively the surge principles would not work in Afghanistan".
Fact: On 2 October, the Washington Post quoted the head of the Nato-led coalition in Afghanistan, Gen David McKiernan, as saying: "The word I don't use for Afghanistan is 'surge'."
Verdict: Mrs Palin not only got the name of the US commander in Afghanistan wrong, but it would seem she also distorted his position.
IRAQ'S BUDGET SURPLUS
Claim: Joe Biden said that "Iraqis have an $80bn surplus".
Fact: According to Factcheck.org, this is "an out-of-date projection. The Iraqis currently have $29bn in the bank, and could have $47bn to $59bn by the end of the year."
Verdict: Joe Biden is guilty of using out-of-date figures, but his substantive point - that the Iraqis have resources to "spend their own money... to take their own responsibility" - still holds.
OBAMA'S READINESS TO BE PRESIDENT
Claim: Sarah Palin reminded Joe Biden of his statement during the Democratic primaries that Barack Obama "was not ready to be commander in chief".
Fact: Joe Biden did indeed say this, on 19 August, 2007, in a TV debate between the various Democratic presidential hopefuls.
Verdict: Mrs Palin's quote was perfectly accurate. (However, Mr Biden did rethink his position. By May 2008 - before Mr Obama had sewn up the nomination, and before he had picked Mr Biden to be his running-mate - he was claiming that Mr Obama had "learned a hell of a lot".)
MCCAIN'S SUB-PRIME SURPRISE
Claim: Joe Biden pointed out that "John McCain said as early as last December, quote - I'm paraphrasing - 'I'm surprised about this subprime mortgage crisis'".
Fact: In a 4 November interview with a New Hampshire newspaper, the Keene Sentinel, John McCain said "I'd like to tell you I did anticipate [the mortgage crisis], but I have to give you straight talk, I did not".
Verdict: Mr Biden's paraphrase is a fair reflection of Mr McCain's words, although he got the date wrong by a month.
BIDEN'S SUPPORT FOR MCCAIN'S IRAQ POSITION
Claim: Sarah Palin said that Joe Biden "had supported John McCain's military strategies [in Iraq] pretty adamantly until this race".
Fact: Jonathan Weisman of the Washington Post characterises Mr Biden as "an outspoken opponent of... troop increases in Iraq as soon as Bush announced them after the 2006 elections". As Foreign Relations Committee Chairman, he led the most heated hearings before the troops were actually deployed.
Verdict: Mrs Palin's claim is untrue. Mr Biden opposed the surge - of which Mr McCain was a prominent proponent - long before the beginning of the presidential campaign, and maintained this position throughout the race.
MCCAIN ON SPAIN
Claim: Joe Biden asserted that "John McCain said as recently as a couple of weeks ago he wouldn't even sit down with the government of Spain".
Fact: John McCain, in an interview with a Spanish-language radio station, refused to commit to a meeting with the Spanish Prime Minister, saying only that he "would be willing to meet with those leaders who are our friends and want to work with us in a cooperative fashion".
Many observers said at the time that Mr McCain's answer was based on a mishearing of the question he had been asked (which had followed a series of questions about America's relationship with diplomatic foes in Latin America).
But a McCain campaign aide later confirmed that "the questioner asked several times about Senator McCain's willingness to meet [Spanish PM] Zapatero - and ID'd him in the question so there is no doubt Senator McCain knew exactly to whom the question referred. Senator McCain refused to commit to a White House meeting with President Zapatero in this interview."
Verdict: While it would have been true for Mr Biden to say that Mr McCain had signalled (whether intentionally or not) a cooling in relations with Spain, Mr McCain did not rule out a meeting with the Spanish prime minister.
Posted by: FactChecker at October 03, 2008 04:15 PM (2LJbm)
48
the VP debate was stunning. Palin did a decent job faking about 20% of the questions and didn't even bother answering the other 80%.
i couldn't help thinking of the end of the movie Billy Madison, when the Principal says to Adam Sandler, "Mr. Madison, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul."
i couldn't help thinking of the end of the movie Billy Madison, when the Principal says to Adam Sandler, "Mr. Madison, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul."
Posted by: movie fan at October 03, 2008 04:16 PM (zQPzV)
49
Ahh, I was wondering where all the Obamamaniacs had gone. Looks like I found them.
Your desperation in attempting to claim that Palin lost is itself evidence that she cleaned Biden's clock.
If any of you Obamamaniacs had the capability of thinking critically, you'd see that. But you don't, so you don't.
Your desperation in attempting to claim that Palin lost is itself evidence that she cleaned Biden's clock.
If any of you Obamamaniacs had the capability of thinking critically, you'd see that. But you don't, so you don't.
Posted by: C-C-G at October 03, 2008 06:23 PM (fxHiG)
50
Sarah, the question is, was he censoring true Republican views, or was he just censoring those who claim to be Republicans in a blatant attempt to bash Governor Palin or Senator McCain?
An interesting question, that.
An interesting question, that.
Posted by: C-C-G at October 03, 2008 06:56 PM (fxHiG)
51
C-C-G,
Sarah, Jon W, Michael, and Old Con, are all logging in from the same IP, 70.193.247.135.
Interestingly enough, 70.193.247.135 is in New York, New York... not exactly known for being McCain country.
Why, if I didn't know better, I might suspect that Sarah, Jon W, Michael, and Old Con were all the same person—and probably not that conservative.
Anybody seen Glenn Greenwald lately?
BTW: banned, deleted, set on fire, etc...
Sarah, Jon W, Michael, and Old Con, are all logging in from the same IP, 70.193.247.135.
Interestingly enough, 70.193.247.135 is in New York, New York... not exactly known for being McCain country.
Why, if I didn't know better, I might suspect that Sarah, Jon W, Michael, and Old Con were all the same person—and probably not that conservative.
Anybody seen Glenn Greenwald lately?
BTW: banned, deleted, set on fire, etc...
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at October 03, 2008 07:23 PM (HcgFD)
52
I think Sarah did a fantastic job! Let's pray she can keep the base energized for another month! I posted this today:
http://salesianity.blogspot.com/2008/10/sarah-palin-new-kind-of-politician-for.html
http://salesianity.blogspot.com/2008/10/sarah-palin-new-kind-of-politician-for.html
Posted by: Padre Steve at October 03, 2008 07:39 PM (Pqw7y)
53
That's what I suspected, CY... that's why I made that comment about people claiming to be Republicans in an attempt to get a free bash on McCain/Palin.
Posted by: C-C-G at October 03, 2008 10:07 PM (fxHiG)
54
Palin was "coached" - Obama was "prepped" all week - remember - he couldn't go to Washington because he was being "prepped" - choice of words denigrates one and elevates the other.
Olberman - She didn't answer the questions!!!???
Are you people insane? Did you NEVER watch Bill and Hillary Clinton? Did they EVER answer the questions? No. They were masters at turning right back to their talking points
each
and
every
time.
The Dem talking points on this one are comical and nonsensical - no wonder. She scares the sh-t out of you.
Olberman - She didn't answer the questions!!!???
Are you people insane? Did you NEVER watch Bill and Hillary Clinton? Did they EVER answer the questions? No. They were masters at turning right back to their talking points
each
and
every
time.
The Dem talking points on this one are comical and nonsensical - no wonder. She scares the sh-t out of you.
Posted by: Rose at October 04, 2008 12:48 PM (f4g+V)
55
I wasn't impressed by either candidate's comments on Darfur.
Palin kind of dodged the question until she got around to telling about how she got a Alaska fund to divest from Darfur. Then she blathered, once again, about energy independence for America. We're all for that Sarah, but why don't you just plain ole answer the question?
As for Biden, I expected a far better answer than the one he gave. Yes, we're all against genocide in Darfur, but what was the difference between Saddam Hussein and the Sudanese Janjaweed Joe? Oh, and we're going to set up no fly zones over Darfur -- no mention of where our aircraft will be based. It sounds like Biden wants to repeat the Clinton experience in Bosnia/Kosovo -- no Congressional mandate, but support from NATO. Where's the equivalent of NATO in the Darfur situation? If I'm not mistaken, that organization is called the Organization for African Unity, and we all know that this organization is solidly behind the Sudanese government and it's Janjaweed bullies. But worst of all, Biden ignores the significant mainland Chinese presence in the Sudan. Over sixty percent of all Darfur oil goes to mainland China, and China is the Sudan's primary arms supplier. In addition there are significant numbers of Chinese "oil field workers" (read Peoples' Liberation Army personnel) in Darfur to guard and operate the oil fields. The BBC has also reported that these Chinese "workers" have been transporting Janjaweed back and forth from their murder campaigns against Darfut civilians. Joe, you claim to have 36 years of experience in foreign policy, but your performance during the debate didn't show it.
Palin kind of dodged the question until she got around to telling about how she got a Alaska fund to divest from Darfur. Then she blathered, once again, about energy independence for America. We're all for that Sarah, but why don't you just plain ole answer the question?
As for Biden, I expected a far better answer than the one he gave. Yes, we're all against genocide in Darfur, but what was the difference between Saddam Hussein and the Sudanese Janjaweed Joe? Oh, and we're going to set up no fly zones over Darfur -- no mention of where our aircraft will be based. It sounds like Biden wants to repeat the Clinton experience in Bosnia/Kosovo -- no Congressional mandate, but support from NATO. Where's the equivalent of NATO in the Darfur situation? If I'm not mistaken, that organization is called the Organization for African Unity, and we all know that this organization is solidly behind the Sudanese government and it's Janjaweed bullies. But worst of all, Biden ignores the significant mainland Chinese presence in the Sudan. Over sixty percent of all Darfur oil goes to mainland China, and China is the Sudan's primary arms supplier. In addition there are significant numbers of Chinese "oil field workers" (read Peoples' Liberation Army personnel) in Darfur to guard and operate the oil fields. The BBC has also reported that these Chinese "workers" have been transporting Janjaweed back and forth from their murder campaigns against Darfut civilians. Joe, you claim to have 36 years of experience in foreign policy, but your performance during the debate didn't show it.
Posted by: Mescalero at October 04, 2008 12:49 PM (mJ3+S)
56
Ha ha, that is hilarious, but she is still better than Biden!
Posted by: Sara at October 04, 2008 02:49 PM (z8Gxp)
57
Confederate Yankee --
It seems to me that Biden and Palin were addressing very different audiences -- Palin addressing middle America (like most of us), Biden addressing that other part of America that considers itself aloof and beyond accountability (e.g., Barney Frank and Chris Dobbs) and basically ignorant of any facts that make the "messiah-gaffer team" look like the imbeciles and manipulaters they really are.
It seems to me that Biden and Palin were addressing very different audiences -- Palin addressing middle America (like most of us), Biden addressing that other part of America that considers itself aloof and beyond accountability (e.g., Barney Frank and Chris Dobbs) and basically ignorant of any facts that make the "messiah-gaffer team" look like the imbeciles and manipulaters they really are.
Posted by: Mescalero at October 04, 2008 03:35 PM (mJ3+S)
58
Mescalero, the person who wrote...
Let's be honest: Expectations were so low for Palin's performance that as long as she appeared a little more intelligent then her infant with down syndrome, we would be cheering at home. And she managed to reach this low-bar. Yahoo!, but let's not lose our heads here and try to pretend that she beat Biden. He didn't make his usual gaffs and instead too often addressed the questions asked, while Sarah turned down opportunities to talk about the current economic crisis and instead focused ad nauseam on energy policy. *wink*!
...wasn't me, but someone in Mt. Laurel, NJ, trying to pretend to be me. Their comment has been deleted, and their IP banned.
I agree with your assessment.
Let's be honest: Expectations were so low for Palin's performance that as long as she appeared a little more intelligent then her infant with down syndrome, we would be cheering at home. And she managed to reach this low-bar. Yahoo!, but let's not lose our heads here and try to pretend that she beat Biden. He didn't make his usual gaffs and instead too often addressed the questions asked, while Sarah turned down opportunities to talk about the current economic crisis and instead focused ad nauseam on energy policy. *wink*!
...wasn't me, but someone in Mt. Laurel, NJ, trying to pretend to be me. Their comment has been deleted, and their IP banned.
I agree with your assessment.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at October 04, 2008 03:48 PM (HcgFD)
59
Governor Palin did very well for herself.
Joe Biden merely did well for Obama.
But I have not yet heard anyone from any side express any concern about the most dangerous possibility if Governor Palin is elected to national office.
Joe Biden merely did well for Obama.
But I have not yet heard anyone from any side express any concern about the most dangerous possibility if Governor Palin is elected to national office.
Posted by: Burr Deming at October 04, 2008 04:15 PM (1hLBg)
60
(sigh) I guess it was only a matter of time before someone tried to impersonate CY.
No one's tried to impersonate me yet, probably because my combination of intelligence and snark is one-of-a-kind. (And, please note, I didn't say which of those two is present in the greatest quantity.)
Of course, now that I suggested it, someone is sure to try to impersonate me. :p
No one's tried to impersonate me yet, probably because my combination of intelligence and snark is one-of-a-kind. (And, please note, I didn't say which of those two is present in the greatest quantity.)
Of course, now that I suggested it, someone is sure to try to impersonate me. :p
Posted by: C-C-G at October 04, 2008 05:52 PM (fxHiG)
61
Biden was impressive only because he was making it up as he went. If held to the truth, he would not have been impressive.
The McCain campaign put out a list of 14 errors by Biden. Flopping Aces had its own list.
This is one reason why I rate Palin as the winner of the debate.
The McCain campaign put out a list of 14 errors by Biden. Flopping Aces had its own list.
This is one reason why I rate Palin as the winner of the debate.
Posted by: Phil Byler at October 05, 2008 02:42 PM (xqMGp)
62
It gets worse, Phil... NRO's Campaign Spot has counted 24.
Here's the first 22: http://campaignspot.nationalreview.com/post/?q=ZTVhMThlNjRkZGFlMmUwOWFkNDZkZjk0MzBiY2JiYmY=
And the last two: http://campaignspot.nationalreview.com/post/?q=Mzc5ZTllZDk1N2JkZTI2ODMxODFiNDdlYjYyMTQxMzA=
Wonder if we can make it to 30...
Here's the first 22: http://campaignspot.nationalreview.com/post/?q=ZTVhMThlNjRkZGFlMmUwOWFkNDZkZjk0MzBiY2JiYmY=
And the last two: http://campaignspot.nationalreview.com/post/?q=Mzc5ZTllZDk1N2JkZTI2ODMxODFiNDdlYjYyMTQxMzA=
Wonder if we can make it to 30...
Posted by: C-C-G at October 05, 2008 06:12 PM (fxHiG)
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