Saddam Lied, People Died
Don't expect this to penetrate to consciousness of those who bought the CPI report unapologetically and uncritically, they won't let George Bush off the hook, no matter the reality:
It seems like The Center for Public Integrity and The Fund for Independence in Journalism have some explaining to do...
Saddam Hussein initially didn't think the U.S. would invade Iraq to destroy weapons of mass destruction, so he kept the fact that he had none a secret to prevent an Iranian invasion he believed could happen. The Iraqi dictator revealed this thinking to George Piro, the FBI agent assigned to interrogate him after his capture... ..."He told me he initially miscalculated... President Bush's intentions. He thought the United States would retaliate with the same type of attack as we did in 1998...a four-day aerial attack," says Piro. "He survived that one and he was willing to accept that type of attack." "He didn't believe the U.S. would invade?" asks Pelley, "No, not initially," answers Piro. Once the invasion was certain, says Piro, Saddam asked his generals if they could hold the invaders for two weeks. "And at that point, it would go into what he called the secret war," Piro tells Pelley. But Piro isn't convinced that the insurgency was Saddam's plan. "Well, he would like to take credit for the insurgency," says Piro. Saddam still wouldn't admit he had no weapons of mass destruction, even when it was obvious there would be military action against him because of the perception he did. Because, says Piro, "For him, it was critical that he was seen as still the strong, defiant Saddam. He thought that [faking having the weapons] would prevent the Iranians from reinvading Iraq," he tells Pelley. He also intended and had the wherewithal to restart the weapons program. "Saddam] still had the engineers. The folks that he needed to reconstitute his program are still there," says Piro. "He wanted to pursue all of WMD…to reconstitute his entire WMD program." This included chemical, biological and nuclear weapons, Piro says.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at 05:35 PM
Comments
1
Yeah all he would have to do is like build 3000 centrifuges and a couple of nuclear reactors and then spend a few years building it. HE WAS ALMOST THERE !!
Posted by: John Ryan at January 24, 2008 08:54 PM (TcoRJ)
2
John Ryan, you really need to invest in reading comprehension classes.
The article says that Saddam wanted to restart all of his WMD programs, not just the nuclear one.
Please, and I mean this honestly, PLEASE try to read before replying... you're making it far FAR too easy for people to make you look like a fool.
The article says that Saddam wanted to restart all of his WMD programs, not just the nuclear one.
Please, and I mean this honestly, PLEASE try to read before replying... you're making it far FAR too easy for people to make you look like a fool.
Posted by: C-C-G at January 24, 2008 08:56 PM (HVE86)
3
My understandding is that with Saddam we SOLD him weapons INCLUDING bio-weapons..he was basically an agent and client. Then JUST LIKE NORIEGA. ..He suddenly became public enemy number one and american boys and girls had to clean up the mess that the weapons dealers and for eing p olicy experts started. It was basically the same team by the way which organized the invasion or Panama that organized the invasion o f Iraq...sorry.. I am on my friends computer..lots of error.
Posted by: chris lee at January 24, 2008 09:18 PM (qTV/d)
4
Chris, got any, uh, evidence to back that up, or are you just blowing smoke?
And, since it seems you're relatively new around these parts, let me warn ya in advance... attempting to use DailyKOS, DemocraticUnderground, or any website that proclaims "UFOS ARE REAL!!!!!!" as evidence will probably succeed... in producing lots of laughter and sharp comments, but not much else.
And, since it seems you're relatively new around these parts, let me warn ya in advance... attempting to use DailyKOS, DemocraticUnderground, or any website that proclaims "UFOS ARE REAL!!!!!!" as evidence will probably succeed... in producing lots of laughter and sharp comments, but not much else.
Posted by: C-C-G at January 24, 2008 09:25 PM (HVE86)
5
chris
your understanding is wrong. the us NEVER sold weapons of any sort, and most emphatically no bio/chem weapons, to saddam. we did sell him dual use hardware like trucks while he and the iranians were slugging it out. and also during the time when attempting to work with saddam.
you need to find new sources of information.
your understanding is wrong. the us NEVER sold weapons of any sort, and most emphatically no bio/chem weapons, to saddam. we did sell him dual use hardware like trucks while he and the iranians were slugging it out. and also during the time when attempting to work with saddam.
you need to find new sources of information.
Posted by: iconoclast at January 24, 2008 10:38 PM (TzLpv)
6
And helicopters...a dozen or so. That's not information chris is working with, it's faith.
Posted by: Pablo at January 25, 2008 02:15 AM (yTndK)
7
In the debriefing of Iraqi commanders in the field as the war progressed and just after, time and time again, they mentioned that they did not have WMDs in their units but the commanders to their left and right did. Hussein also had caches of WMD counter-measures, like shots to be given in the field, stored around the battle field as well, as we saw on TV as US units took areas.
I have never been able to figure out why facts like these cannot sink through the thick skull of intelligent people.....
I have never been able to figure out why facts like these cannot sink through the thick skull of intelligent people.....
Posted by: usinkorea at January 25, 2008 02:57 AM (Fs2Et)
8
Saddam got Mustard Gas from the US and small amounts of bio-weapons from US sellers licensed by the US Govt.
Posted by: chris lee at January 25, 2008 07:41 AM (qTV/d)
9
Chris, evidence? Where's the links?
We don't just accept lefty statements without evidence around here.
We don't just accept lefty statements without evidence around here.
Posted by: C-C-G at January 25, 2008 07:51 AM (HVE86)
10
That's pretty interesting given that bio weapons have been outlawed since 1975. And we haven't produced mustard gas since 1968.
So what Chris is saying is that we licensed the sale of outlawed weapons and the sale of products that we don't make.
So what Chris is saying is that we licensed the sale of outlawed weapons and the sale of products that we don't make.
Posted by: Pablo at January 25, 2008 10:09 AM (yTndK)
11
Got any proof of that, Chris, or just DU posts?
Posted by: Techie at January 25, 2008 10:11 AM (AV8Z6)
12
http://www.fas.org/irp/congress/2002_cr/s092002.html
Posted by: chris lee at January 25, 2008 10:12 AM (6x0Nb)
13
But, wait, if we SOLD them to Saddam, wouldn't that mean he HAD them?
But, I thought that Saddam DIDN'T HAVE ANY WMDs?
Cognitive Dissonance is a bitch.
But, I thought that Saddam DIDN'T HAVE ANY WMDs?
Cognitive Dissonance is a bitch.
Posted by: Techie at January 25, 2008 10:12 AM (AV8Z6)
14
Chris, I'll ask you to go back and actually read the Robert Byrd statements in the Congressional record at the FAS link you provided, for they do not support your assertion that we sold Saddam Hussein mustard gas or bioweapons.
You have provided zero assertion for your chemical weapons claim (including mustard gas). None is provided here. Period.
Further, the Bacillus Anthracis, Clostridium Botulinum, Histoplasma Capsulatum, Brucella Melitensis, etc that were shipped to Iraq were not weaponized. They were biological research samples, theoretically intended for a university biological research program in Basra.
You can make the assertion that it was a mistake to ship these materials as they could be used in the research and development of biological weapons, but to state that "Saddam got Mustard Gas from the US and small amounts of bio-weapons from US sellers licensed by the US Govt" as you did is a falsehood.
You have provided zero assertion for your chemical weapons claim (including mustard gas). None is provided here. Period.
Further, the Bacillus Anthracis, Clostridium Botulinum, Histoplasma Capsulatum, Brucella Melitensis, etc that were shipped to Iraq were not weaponized. They were biological research samples, theoretically intended for a university biological research program in Basra.
You can make the assertion that it was a mistake to ship these materials as they could be used in the research and development of biological weapons, but to state that "Saddam got Mustard Gas from the US and small amounts of bio-weapons from US sellers licensed by the US Govt" as you did is a falsehood.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at January 25, 2008 10:41 AM (vxbTC)
15
It takes a true lefty to link to a piece that disproves their own accusation.
Posted by: Techie at January 25, 2008 10:44 AM (AV8Z6)
16
...My understandding is that with Saddam we SOLD him weapons INCLUDING bio-weapons...
That is a misconception. The vast majority of Saddams WMD technology came from old europe.
That is a misconception. The vast majority of Saddams WMD technology came from old europe.
Posted by: Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr at January 25, 2008 10:47 AM (gkobM)
17
....small amounts of bio-weapons from US sellers licensed by the US Govt...
This hardly rises to the level of "we sold saddam his bio weapons". Given my job I could order small amounts of "bio-weapons" over the internet from US companies. This has been spun by lefties to fuel the myth "but we (we typically implied to be the evil US government) gave him his WMD". A more accurate characterization would be that companies in the US sold universities in Iraq research tools similar to those they sell to US universities every day".
This hardly rises to the level of "we sold saddam his bio weapons". Given my job I could order small amounts of "bio-weapons" over the internet from US companies. This has been spun by lefties to fuel the myth "but we (we typically implied to be the evil US government) gave him his WMD". A more accurate characterization would be that companies in the US sold universities in Iraq research tools similar to those they sell to US universities every day".
Posted by: Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr at January 25, 2008 10:53 AM (gkobM)
18
I concede defeat. All of these blogs are one sided advocacy sites, I acknowledge the invalidity of my viewpoint.
Posted by: chris lee at January 25, 2008 11:00 AM (6x0Nb)
19
Your viewpoint can be whatever you'd like it to be, chris. But your facts can't. More on the subject here.
Posted by: Pablo at January 25, 2008 11:06 AM (yTndK)
20
You see how several posts ago I was being chided for even suggesting that Hussein got bio and chemical weapons from US. What FACTS are you disputing. Saddam got chem and bio weapons from US and Euro sources..again my argument is that these thugs (Noriega) start out as clients and then American boys and girls have to go in and clean up the mess. I am only advocating a more rigorous reading of the situation than the "official story" I have no partisan attachment to anything, if you can supply with credible info on this or that issue it's fine with me.
Posted by: chris lee at January 25, 2008 11:14 AM (6x0Nb)
21
I cant imagine hating your country so much that you'd resort to lying but I guess that's what far left wing fanatical kooks like Chris do. Anyway here are the real statistics if anyone is interested. As you can see Russia is first with well over 50%.
Posted by: Capitalist Infidel at January 25, 2008 11:18 AM (Lgw9b)
22
CapInf..Wow...I hate my (your) country. Let me know when you get the lynch mob 2gether. Classic.
Posted by: chris lee at January 25, 2008 11:30 AM (6x0Nb)
23
You see how several posts ago I was being chided for even suggesting that Hussein got bio and chemical weapons from US. What FACTS are you disputing. Saddam got chem and bio weapons from US and Euro sources..
No, chris. Hussein got NO chemical or bio weapons from the US. Zip, zero, nada, zilch. None whatsoever. As has been stated, and noted in linked pieces, the closest you can get to that is that there we're biospecimens transferred, not bio weapons. These things were transferred for perfectly legitimate purposes, such as research and vaccine manufacturing, and we send such things to many places around the world to this day. Those specimens are not weapons. Your statement is false. Your facts are wrong.
Is this a true comprehension problem, or willful ignorance?
No, chris. Hussein got NO chemical or bio weapons from the US. Zip, zero, nada, zilch. None whatsoever. As has been stated, and noted in linked pieces, the closest you can get to that is that there we're biospecimens transferred, not bio weapons. These things were transferred for perfectly legitimate purposes, such as research and vaccine manufacturing, and we send such things to many places around the world to this day. Those specimens are not weapons. Your statement is false. Your facts are wrong.
Is this a true comprehension problem, or willful ignorance?
Posted by: Pablo at January 25, 2008 12:06 PM (yTndK)
24
BTW..since we are doing statistics here..how many sons and daughters of the Dem and Repub candidates of age enlisted to fight in Iraq? any stats on that? How many of you on this board..I should at least find one or two..
Posted by: chris lee at January 25, 2008 12:07 PM (6x0Nb)
25
Oh, and I'd still like to know where you got the faintest notion that the US provided chem weapons...
Posted by: Pablo at January 25, 2008 12:09 PM (yTndK)
26
Changing the subject isn't going to work, chris.
Posted by: Pablo at January 25, 2008 12:10 PM (yTndK)
27
Pablo puhleez..first of all you don't deny we sold them Mustard gas right. Second..a nation at war w/our enemy?..we thought it was for legit purposes only? Plausible denial you are right.
Posted by: chris lee at January 25, 2008 12:13 PM (6x0Nb)
28
Pablo puhleez..first of all you don't deny we sold them Mustard gas right.
Yes, I do deny that because it isn't true. we stopped producing MG a dozen years before the Iran-Iraq war started. What evidence have you offered to show that we did? You've given exactly one link and it says no such thing.
Second..a nation at war w/our enemy?..we thought it was for legit purposes only? Plausible denial you are right.
Were they weapons or not? You said we sold him bio weapons. Those have no legitimate purpose, and such sales would be completely illegal under the 1972 Biological Weapons Convention. Did we sell him bio weapons? Yes or no?
Yes, I do deny that because it isn't true. we stopped producing MG a dozen years before the Iran-Iraq war started. What evidence have you offered to show that we did? You've given exactly one link and it says no such thing.
Second..a nation at war w/our enemy?..we thought it was for legit purposes only? Plausible denial you are right.
Were they weapons or not? You said we sold him bio weapons. Those have no legitimate purpose, and such sales would be completely illegal under the 1972 Biological Weapons Convention. Did we sell him bio weapons? Yes or no?
Posted by: Pablo at January 25, 2008 12:27 PM (yTndK)
29
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran-Iraq_War
..for Pablo
..for Pablo
Posted by: chris lee at January 25, 2008 12:36 PM (6x0Nb)
30
Changing the subject is still not going to work, chris. Where is your evidence that we sold him mustard gas? Where is your evidence that we sold him bio weapons? Where did you get the information that leads you to believe those things?
Posted by: Pablo at January 25, 2008 12:42 PM (yTndK)
Posted by: Techie at January 25, 2008 01:37 PM (AV8Z6)
32
chris, you have every right to hate freedom and democracy. nothing wrong with being an authoritarian. while your heroes are Hitler, Stalin, Chavez, and Castro, mine will remain Jefferson, Washington, and Lincoln.
Posted by: Capitalist Infidel at January 25, 2008 01:48 PM (Lgw9b)
33
pablo..did you read the link about wikkipedia? The chemical weapons part? CapInf..man, get real.
Posted by: chris lee at January 25, 2008 01:58 PM (6x0Nb)
34
Chemical weapons
According to Iraq's report to the UN, the know-how and material for developing chemical weapons were obtained from the United States, West Germany, the United Kingdom, France and the People's Republic of China.[56]
In December 2002, Iraq's 1,200 page Weapons Declaration revealed a list of Eastern and Western corporations and countries, as well as individuals, that exported a total of 17,602 tons of chemical precursors to Iraq in the past two decades. By far, the largest suppliers of precursors for chemical weapons production were in Singapore (4,515 tons), the Netherlands (4,261 tons), Egypt (2,400 tons), India (2,343 tons), and Federal Republic of Germany (1,027 tons). One Indian company, Exomet Plastics (now part of EPC Industrie) sent 2,292 tons of precursor chemicals to Iraq. The Kim Al-Khaleej firm, located in Singapore and affiliated to United Arab Emirates, supplied more than 4,500 tons of VX, sarin, and mustard gas precursors and production equipment to Iraq.[57]
According to Iraq's declarations, it had procured 340 pieces of equipment used for the production of chemical weapons. More than half came from a US firm via a German company[citation needed], the remainder mostly from France, Spain, and Austria.[57] In addition, Iraq declared that it imported more than 200,000 munitions made for delivering chemicals, 75,000 came from Italy, 57,500 from Spain, 45,000 from China, and 28,500 from Egypt.[57]
Declassified U.S. government documents indicate that the U.S. government had confirmed that Iraq was using chemical weapons "almost daily" during the Iran-Iraq conflict as early as 1983. U.S. Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld even met with Saddam Hussein the same day the UN released a report that Iraq had used mustard gas and tabun nerve agent against Iranian troops.[58] The New York Times reported from Baghdad on 29 March 1984, that "American diplomats pronounce themselves satisfied with Iraq and the U.S., and suggest that normal diplomatic ties have been established in all but name."[59] The chairman of the Senate committee, Don Riegle, said: “The executive branch of our government approved 771 different export licenses for sale of dual-use technology to Iraq. I think it’s a devastating record”.[60] According to the Washington Post, the CIA began in 1984 secretly to give Iraq intelligence that Iraq used to "calibrate" its mustard gas attacks on Iranian troops. In August, the CIA establishes a direct Washington-Baghdad intelligence link, and for 18 months, starting in early 1985, the CIA provided Iraq with "data from sensitive U.S. satellite reconnaissance photography...to assist Iraqi bombing raids." The Post’s source said that this data was essential to Iraq’s war effort.[61]
In May 2003, an extended list of international companies involvements in Iraq was provided by The Independent.[62] Official Howard Teicher and Radley Gayle, stated that 31 Bell helicopters that were given to Iraq by U.S. later were used to spray chemical weapons.[63]
Iraq's chemical weapons program was mainly assisted by German companies such as Karl Kobe, which built a chemical weapons facility disguised as a pesticide plant. Iraq’s foreign contractors, including Karl Kolb with Massar for reinforcement, built five large research laboratories, an administrative building, eight large underground bunkers for the storage of chemical munitions, and the first production buildings. 150 tons of mustard were produced in 1983. About 60 tons of Tabun were produced in 1984. Pilot-scale production of Sarin began in 1984.[64] Germany also supplied reactors, heat exchangers, condensors and vessels. France, Austria, Canada, and Spain provided similar equipment.[57]
The Al Haddad trading company of Tennessee delivered 60 tons of DMMP, a chemical used to make sarin, a nerve gas implicated in so-called Gulf War Syndrome. The Al Haddad trading company appears to have been an Iraqi front company. The firm was owned by Sahib Abd al-Amir al-Haddad, an Iraqi-born, naturalized American citizen. Recent stories in The New York Times and The Tennessean reported that al-Haddad was arrested in Bulgaria in November 2002 while trying to arrange an arms sale to Iraq. Al-Haddad was charged with conspiring to purchase equipment for the manufacture of a giant Iraqi cannon, a design based on the Canadian HARP program. In 1984, U.S. Customs at New York's Kennedy Airport stopped an order addressed to the Iraqi State Enterprise for Pesticide Production for 74 drums of potassium fluoride, a chemical used in the production of Sarin. The order was placed by Al-Haddad Enterprises Incorporates, owned by an individual named Sahib al-Haddad. [4]
The U.S. firm Alcolac International supplied one mustard-gas precursor, thiodiglycol, to Iraq & Iran in violation of U.S. export laws but the U.S. Justice Department for illegal exports indicted the company in 1988 only for its illegal exports to Iran and was forced to pay a fine. Overall between 300-400 tons were sent to Iraq.[57][5] [6] [7] [8]
According to Iraq's report to the UN, the know-how and material for developing chemical weapons were obtained from the United States, West Germany, the United Kingdom, France and the People's Republic of China.[56]
In December 2002, Iraq's 1,200 page Weapons Declaration revealed a list of Eastern and Western corporations and countries, as well as individuals, that exported a total of 17,602 tons of chemical precursors to Iraq in the past two decades. By far, the largest suppliers of precursors for chemical weapons production were in Singapore (4,515 tons), the Netherlands (4,261 tons), Egypt (2,400 tons), India (2,343 tons), and Federal Republic of Germany (1,027 tons). One Indian company, Exomet Plastics (now part of EPC Industrie) sent 2,292 tons of precursor chemicals to Iraq. The Kim Al-Khaleej firm, located in Singapore and affiliated to United Arab Emirates, supplied more than 4,500 tons of VX, sarin, and mustard gas precursors and production equipment to Iraq.[57]
According to Iraq's declarations, it had procured 340 pieces of equipment used for the production of chemical weapons. More than half came from a US firm via a German company[citation needed], the remainder mostly from France, Spain, and Austria.[57] In addition, Iraq declared that it imported more than 200,000 munitions made for delivering chemicals, 75,000 came from Italy, 57,500 from Spain, 45,000 from China, and 28,500 from Egypt.[57]
Declassified U.S. government documents indicate that the U.S. government had confirmed that Iraq was using chemical weapons "almost daily" during the Iran-Iraq conflict as early as 1983. U.S. Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld even met with Saddam Hussein the same day the UN released a report that Iraq had used mustard gas and tabun nerve agent against Iranian troops.[58] The New York Times reported from Baghdad on 29 March 1984, that "American diplomats pronounce themselves satisfied with Iraq and the U.S., and suggest that normal diplomatic ties have been established in all but name."[59] The chairman of the Senate committee, Don Riegle, said: “The executive branch of our government approved 771 different export licenses for sale of dual-use technology to Iraq. I think it’s a devastating record”.[60] According to the Washington Post, the CIA began in 1984 secretly to give Iraq intelligence that Iraq used to "calibrate" its mustard gas attacks on Iranian troops. In August, the CIA establishes a direct Washington-Baghdad intelligence link, and for 18 months, starting in early 1985, the CIA provided Iraq with "data from sensitive U.S. satellite reconnaissance photography...to assist Iraqi bombing raids." The Post’s source said that this data was essential to Iraq’s war effort.[61]
In May 2003, an extended list of international companies involvements in Iraq was provided by The Independent.[62] Official Howard Teicher and Radley Gayle, stated that 31 Bell helicopters that were given to Iraq by U.S. later were used to spray chemical weapons.[63]
Iraq's chemical weapons program was mainly assisted by German companies such as Karl Kobe, which built a chemical weapons facility disguised as a pesticide plant. Iraq’s foreign contractors, including Karl Kolb with Massar for reinforcement, built five large research laboratories, an administrative building, eight large underground bunkers for the storage of chemical munitions, and the first production buildings. 150 tons of mustard were produced in 1983. About 60 tons of Tabun were produced in 1984. Pilot-scale production of Sarin began in 1984.[64] Germany also supplied reactors, heat exchangers, condensors and vessels. France, Austria, Canada, and Spain provided similar equipment.[57]
The Al Haddad trading company of Tennessee delivered 60 tons of DMMP, a chemical used to make sarin, a nerve gas implicated in so-called Gulf War Syndrome. The Al Haddad trading company appears to have been an Iraqi front company. The firm was owned by Sahib Abd al-Amir al-Haddad, an Iraqi-born, naturalized American citizen. Recent stories in The New York Times and The Tennessean reported that al-Haddad was arrested in Bulgaria in November 2002 while trying to arrange an arms sale to Iraq. Al-Haddad was charged with conspiring to purchase equipment for the manufacture of a giant Iraqi cannon, a design based on the Canadian HARP program. In 1984, U.S. Customs at New York's Kennedy Airport stopped an order addressed to the Iraqi State Enterprise for Pesticide Production for 74 drums of potassium fluoride, a chemical used in the production of Sarin. The order was placed by Al-Haddad Enterprises Incorporates, owned by an individual named Sahib al-Haddad. [4]
The U.S. firm Alcolac International supplied one mustard-gas precursor, thiodiglycol, to Iraq & Iran in violation of U.S. export laws but the U.S. Justice Department for illegal exports indicted the company in 1988 only for its illegal exports to Iran and was forced to pay a fine. Overall between 300-400 tons were sent to Iraq.[57][5] [6] [7] [8]
Posted by: chris lee at January 25, 2008 02:00 PM (6x0Nb)
35
Good post chris lee. Clearly there is no evidence that US government policy was to provide Saddam with his WMD. On the other hand it is clear that the Baath regime was an enthusiastic maker and user of WMD.
Posted by: Grrrrr at January 25, 2008 02:23 PM (gkobM)
36
"Know-how" is not weapons, chris. And let's keep in mind that you're relying on a freaking Wikipedia article with a header that tells us that the neutrality of the article is disputed and that it lacks citations for verification. I mean really, look at the body of the article:
In 1982 with Iranian success on the battlefield, the U.S. made its backing of Iraq more pronounced, supplying it with intelligence, economic aid, normalizing relations with the government (broken during the 1967 Six-Day War), and also supplying weapons.[20] (is this really a good source?) President Ronald Reagan decided that the United States "could not afford to allow Iraq to lose the war to Iran", and that the United States "would do whatever was necessary to prevent Iraq from losing the war with Iran." (but is this really indicative of 'support?)[21]
The emphasis is mine, the bolded text is not. Authoritative? I think not, and it also doesn't say what you're looking for. But even given all that, the piece also says this:
The U.S. sold Iraq $200 million in helicopters, which were used by the Iraqi military in the war. These were the only direct U.S.-Iraqi military sales and were valued to be about 0.6% of Iraq's conventional weapons imports during the war.[51] The helicopters were demilitarized, however, without weapon systems so they were technically not considered weapon sales.
Cite something, anything, that says we sold him chemical or bio weapons.
That is your thesis and you've offered nothing to support it. Your own link disputes your claim.
In 1982 with Iranian success on the battlefield, the U.S. made its backing of Iraq more pronounced, supplying it with intelligence, economic aid, normalizing relations with the government (broken during the 1967 Six-Day War), and also supplying weapons.[20] (is this really a good source?) President Ronald Reagan decided that the United States "could not afford to allow Iraq to lose the war to Iran", and that the United States "would do whatever was necessary to prevent Iraq from losing the war with Iran." (but is this really indicative of 'support?)[21]
The emphasis is mine, the bolded text is not. Authoritative? I think not, and it also doesn't say what you're looking for. But even given all that, the piece also says this:
The U.S. sold Iraq $200 million in helicopters, which were used by the Iraqi military in the war. These were the only direct U.S.-Iraqi military sales and were valued to be about 0.6% of Iraq's conventional weapons imports during the war.[51] The helicopters were demilitarized, however, without weapon systems so they were technically not considered weapon sales.
Cite something, anything, that says we sold him chemical or bio weapons.
That is your thesis and you've offered nothing to support it. Your own link disputes your claim.
Posted by: Pablo at January 25, 2008 02:26 PM (yTndK)
37
Plus recall that the Iraqi Army was equipped with mostly Soviet and French war materiel, from AK47s, to T-72 tanks and MiG fighter jets, whereas the Iranians actually had old US gear - M-16s, M-60 tanks, F-14 fighters.... obtained during the era of the Shah. So the Left's contention that Reagan somehow was the arsenal and arms merchant of choice for Saddam is a complete myth. He was armed with mostly Russian and European stuff, not American.
Those WMDs were mostly built with European tools and delievered via Russian weapon systems.
Sharing some intel and a small amount of other gear is not the same thing as "arming Saddam".
Those WMDs were mostly built with European tools and delievered via Russian weapon systems.
Sharing some intel and a small amount of other gear is not the same thing as "arming Saddam".
Posted by: John at January 25, 2008 02:26 PM (xgQeg)
38
Well in situations like this we will go around in circles all night. Believe what you will. If you want to believe ANYTHING the "Authorities" tell you go right ahead. I am just advocating an informed and vigilant electorate. You are right, the sources int the links (I) have sited, may or may not be accurate, but as a citizen I will damn sure check it out.
"Good post chris lee. Clearly there is no evidence that US government policy was to provide Saddam with his WMD. On the other hand it is clear that the Baath regime was an enthusiastic maker and user of WMD."
Grrr..I guess it's not the Central "intelligence" Agency..it's the Central "naivete" Agency...
"Good post chris lee. Clearly there is no evidence that US government policy was to provide Saddam with his WMD. On the other hand it is clear that the Baath regime was an enthusiastic maker and user of WMD."
Grrr..I guess it's not the Central "intelligence" Agency..it's the Central "naivete" Agency...
Posted by: chris lee at January 25, 2008 02:38 PM (6x0Nb)
39
You are right, the sources int the links (I) have sited, may or may not be accurate, but as a citizen I will damn sure check it out.
That should come before presuming to have the facts. We don't need to go around and around. The transactions have been discussed with references cited. The material transferred has been quantified. There was NO sale of chem or bio weapons by the US to Saddam Hussein's Iraq. That is not an opinion or a point of view. It is a fact.
Pesky things, those facts.
That should come before presuming to have the facts. We don't need to go around and around. The transactions have been discussed with references cited. The material transferred has been quantified. There was NO sale of chem or bio weapons by the US to Saddam Hussein's Iraq. That is not an opinion or a point of view. It is a fact.
Pesky things, those facts.
Posted by: Pablo at January 25, 2008 02:48 PM (yTndK)
40
Oh, and it doesn't matter if your cites are accurate or not because they don't claim such weapons sales were made.
Posted by: Pablo at January 25, 2008 02:50 PM (yTndK)
41
But Pablo, to left wing nut jobs like chris it's how they "feel." If they feel the U.S. gave Saddam weapons than it just has to be true, facts be damned.
Posted by: Capitalist Infidel at January 25, 2008 03:18 PM (Lgw9b)
42
This is also what the Iraqi Perspectives project said like two years ago.
Ray Robison is the author of Both In One Trench: Saddam's Secret Terror Documents
http://www.bothinonetrench.com
Ray Robison is the author of Both In One Trench: Saddam's Secret Terror Documents
http://www.bothinonetrench.com
Posted by: Ray Robison at January 25, 2008 03:18 PM (Cgo1/)
43
I have been asked to cite sources for the foundation for my opinion. I have done so. My question is if convinced of the certitude of this administration's policies how many of the scion of Republican (and Democrat for that matter) major candidates have even CONSIDERED enlisting?
Posted by: chris lee at January 25, 2008 03:25 PM (6x0Nb)
44
CapInf..to my knowledge, Pablo doesn't agree with my point of view but he has refrained from inflammatory name calling. Presumably he respects the rules and courtesies of political debate. I have always admired the way William F Buckley Jr could have Allen Ginsburg or Eleanor Holmes Norton on his program and still be quite the gentleman (Gore Vidal got under his skin though). I wonder how people like you justify your mean spiritedness as you supposedly represent the liberal (oops) humanist Christian viewpoint of Conservative politics.
Posted by: chris lee at January 25, 2008 03:36 PM (6x0Nb)
45
I have been asked to cite sources for the foundation for my opinion. I have done so.
And your sources do not support your opinion. Of the two you've offered, one of them flatly contradicts it. Do you see the problem here?
As for the "chickenhawk" inference, one does not sacrifice one's children to the military in support of one's position. Adults choose to join, or don't. And John McCain has 2 sons in.
And your sources do not support your opinion. Of the two you've offered, one of them flatly contradicts it. Do you see the problem here?
As for the "chickenhawk" inference, one does not sacrifice one's children to the military in support of one's position. Adults choose to join, or don't. And John McCain has 2 sons in.
Posted by: Pablo at January 25, 2008 04:34 PM (yTndK)
46
Pablo.."The Al Haddad trading company of Tennessee delivered 60 tons of DMMP, a chemical used to make sarin, a nerve gas implicated in so-called Gulf War Syndrome. The Al Haddad trading company appears to have been an Iraqi front company. The firm was owned by Sahib Abd al-Amir al-Haddad, an Iraqi-born, naturalized American citizen. Recent stories in The New York Times and The Tennessean reported that al-Haddad was arrested in Bulgaria in November 2002 while trying to arrange an arms sale to Iraq. Al-Haddad was charged with conspiring to purchase equipment for the manufacture of a giant Iraqi cannon, a design based on the Canadian HARP program. In 1984, U.S. Customs at New York's Kennedy Airport stopped an order addressed to the Iraqi State Enterprise for Pesticide Production for 74 drums of potassium fluoride, a chemical used in the production of Sarin. The order was placed by Al-Haddad Enterprises Incorporates, owned by an individual named Sahib al-Haddad. [4]
The U.S. firm Alcolac International supplied one mustard-gas precursor, thiodiglycol, to Iraq & Iran in violation of U.S. export laws but the U.S. Justice Department for illegal exports indicted the company in 1988 only for its illegal exports to Iran and was forced to pay a fine. Overall between 300-400 tons were sent to Iraq.[57][5] [6] [7] [8]
According to Iraq's report to the UN, the know-how and material for developing chemical weapons were obtained from the United States, West Germany, the United Kingdom, France and the People's Republic of China.[56]"
I say they do you say they don't . I can find more but this is going nowhere.
The U.S. firm Alcolac International supplied one mustard-gas precursor, thiodiglycol, to Iraq & Iran in violation of U.S. export laws but the U.S. Justice Department for illegal exports indicted the company in 1988 only for its illegal exports to Iran and was forced to pay a fine. Overall between 300-400 tons were sent to Iraq.[57][5] [6] [7] [8]
According to Iraq's report to the UN, the know-how and material for developing chemical weapons were obtained from the United States, West Germany, the United Kingdom, France and the People's Republic of China.[56]"
I say they do you say they don't . I can find more but this is going nowhere.
Posted by: chris lee at January 25, 2008 04:41 PM (6x0Nb)
47
Chris:
Yes, I tried to enlist in the Navy. I am ineligible due to a disability.
What reason do you give for not protecting your nation?
Yes, I tried to enlist in the Navy. I am ineligible due to a disability.
What reason do you give for not protecting your nation?
Posted by: C-C-G at January 25, 2008 04:50 PM (Ty2RL)
48
I don't believe this is a war of necessity. It's a campaign of choice. A geopolitical calculation rather than an urgent defense of our New York or California border. Your neighbors will soon be more concerned with who wins Giants/Patriots than whether or not Sunni/Shiite come to some sort of political reconciliation. And like many in this country I just plain don't believe Bush/Cheney ( Wolfowitz, Kristol, Bendar, Unocal, Murdoch, etc)
Posted by: chris lee at January 25, 2008 05:00 PM (6x0Nb)
49
of DMMP, a chemical used to make sarin...one mustard-gas precursor, thiodiglycol...
Not weapons. Chemicals that can be used to make weapons. You like Wiki? Let's Wiki DMMP:
The primary commercial use of dimethyl methylphosphonate is as a flame retardant. Other commercial uses are a preignition additive for gasoline, anti-foaming agent, plasticizer, stabilizer, textile conditioner, antistatic agent, and an additive for solvents and low-temperature hydraulic fluids. It can be used as a catalyst and a reagent in organic synthesis, as it can generate a highly reactive ylide. The yearly production in the United States varies between 91,000 and 910,000 kilograms.
Now let's look at Thiodiglycol
Thiodiglycol, or bis(2-hydroxyethyl)sulfide, is a viscous, clear to pale-yellow liquid used as a solvent. Its chemical formula is C4H10O2S, or HOCH2CH2SCH2CH2OH. It is miscible with acetone, alcohols, and chloroform. It is soluble in benzene, ether, and tetrachloromethane.
Thiodiglycol is manufactured by reaction of 2-chloroethanol with sodium sulfide. It is structurally similar to diethylene glycol.
Thiodiglycol has both polar and nonpolar solvent properties. It is used as a solvent in a variety of applications ranging from dyeing textiles to inks in some ballpoint pens. In chemical synthesis, it is used as a building block for protection products, dispersants, fibers, plasticizers, rubber accelerators, pesticides, dyes, and various other organic chemicals. In the manufacture of polymers, it is used as a chain transfer agent. As an antioxidant, it is used as an additive in lubricants.
Do those look like chemical weapons to you, chris? Did you know that you can make chemicals weapons from chlorine? Is anyone who sells chlorine selling chemical weapons?
Not weapons. Chemicals that can be used to make weapons. You like Wiki? Let's Wiki DMMP:
The primary commercial use of dimethyl methylphosphonate is as a flame retardant. Other commercial uses are a preignition additive for gasoline, anti-foaming agent, plasticizer, stabilizer, textile conditioner, antistatic agent, and an additive for solvents and low-temperature hydraulic fluids. It can be used as a catalyst and a reagent in organic synthesis, as it can generate a highly reactive ylide. The yearly production in the United States varies between 91,000 and 910,000 kilograms.
Now let's look at Thiodiglycol
Thiodiglycol, or bis(2-hydroxyethyl)sulfide, is a viscous, clear to pale-yellow liquid used as a solvent. Its chemical formula is C4H10O2S, or HOCH2CH2SCH2CH2OH. It is miscible with acetone, alcohols, and chloroform. It is soluble in benzene, ether, and tetrachloromethane.
Thiodiglycol is manufactured by reaction of 2-chloroethanol with sodium sulfide. It is structurally similar to diethylene glycol.
Thiodiglycol has both polar and nonpolar solvent properties. It is used as a solvent in a variety of applications ranging from dyeing textiles to inks in some ballpoint pens. In chemical synthesis, it is used as a building block for protection products, dispersants, fibers, plasticizers, rubber accelerators, pesticides, dyes, and various other organic chemicals. In the manufacture of polymers, it is used as a chain transfer agent. As an antioxidant, it is used as an additive in lubricants.
Do those look like chemical weapons to you, chris? Did you know that you can make chemicals weapons from chlorine? Is anyone who sells chlorine selling chemical weapons?
Posted by: Pablo at January 25, 2008 05:45 PM (yTndK)
50
Nice diatribe, Chris.
Now, why are you not defending your country? You asked us, so it is fair for us to ask you. Or do we have a double standard here?
Now, why are you not defending your country? You asked us, so it is fair for us to ask you. Or do we have a double standard here?
Posted by: C-C-G at January 25, 2008 06:13 PM (ZSqgS)
51
Oh, and there's this:
The Al Haddad trading company appears to have been an Iraqi front company.
So, that equals "The US did it." how, exactly? That's like saying that American Airlines was behind the WTC attacks of 9/11.
The Al Haddad trading company appears to have been an Iraqi front company.
So, that equals "The US did it." how, exactly? That's like saying that American Airlines was behind the WTC attacks of 9/11.
Posted by: Pablo at January 25, 2008 06:33 PM (yTndK)
52
Tell me chris how can we have any kind of political discourse when you intentionally lie? Even your own "source" proved you lied.
Posted by: Capitalist Infidel at January 25, 2008 07:03 PM (Lgw9b)
53
Cap, that's what BDS sufferers call "political discourse"--seeing who can come up with the best "Bush did it!" lie.
Posted by: C-C-G at January 25, 2008 07:41 PM (HVE86)
54
Chris,
If you have to have served to support war,does
that make Bill Clinton a chicken hawk war criminal
for Bosnia,bombing Iraq/Afghanistan.
I guess that makes Hillary,Obama,and Edwards ineligible to become Commander and Chief since they have no military experience.
Do you support the police,fire Dept.
If you are not a police officer and a fireman then you can't say you really support them now
can you.
Saying I won't fight because I don't support the
war is just liberal speak for:
"I choose to let other people do my fighting for
me while I sit back and whine and complain."
Don't you have a recruiting station to vandalize
or some Soldiers to yell "Baby killer" at you need to get back to?
If you have to have served to support war,does
that make Bill Clinton a chicken hawk war criminal
for Bosnia,bombing Iraq/Afghanistan.
I guess that makes Hillary,Obama,and Edwards ineligible to become Commander and Chief since they have no military experience.
Do you support the police,fire Dept.
If you are not a police officer and a fireman then you can't say you really support them now
can you.
Saying I won't fight because I don't support the
war is just liberal speak for:
"I choose to let other people do my fighting for
me while I sit back and whine and complain."
Don't you have a recruiting station to vandalize
or some Soldiers to yell "Baby killer" at you need to get back to?
Posted by: Baxter Greene at January 25, 2008 10:32 PM (e1VWc)
55
I..I don't know what to say. I guess you are right...when the gubmint says it's so it must be so ....I concede. There is n o such thing as "pl ausible deniability" and "four legs good two legs baaaad."
Posted by: chris lee at January 25, 2008 11:00 PM (qTV/d)
56
Chris, such childish comments are beneath a serious debater. If one honestly loses a debate, Grasshopper, the wise man admits his mistake(s) and learns from them. It is when one admits "I do not know" that true learning begins.
Posted by: C-C-G at January 25, 2008 11:49 PM (HVE86)
57
I have lost the debate? Because someone pointed out that those sophisticated chemicals COULD have been used for non-martial purposes even though they were sold to a country currently at war with our enemy and know n to b e ussing chemical weaapons? Plausible deniability. I wasn't THERE so I dont KNOW what actual deal was strucck . I do know that this administration has been proven to have misled this country whether intntionally or not.
Posted by: chris lee at January 26, 2008 08:17 AM (qTV/d)
58
Where's the part where the government says so? That's your link we're working with, chris. This is your 'proof'. And did you miss the part about Al Haddad being an Iraqi front company?
Why wouldn't we sell perfectly legal items to a country not under any sort of sanction? And why do you assume that we should have assumed that chemical with dozens of legitimate uses would be used for WMD?
Under what legal authority do you suggest that those sales should have been banned? And would you have a problem if an American company was selling chlorine to Iraq?
Why wouldn't we sell perfectly legal items to a country not under any sort of sanction? And why do you assume that we should have assumed that chemical with dozens of legitimate uses would be used for WMD?
Under what legal authority do you suggest that those sales should have been banned? And would you have a problem if an American company was selling chlorine to Iraq?
Posted by: Pablo at January 26, 2008 08:39 AM (xr+gF)
59
BTW, are you conceding that those are not weapons, chris?
Posted by: Pablo at January 26, 2008 08:48 AM (xr+gF)
60
Yes Pablo at this moment I am concedding that the US would not have sold weaponized chemical or biological agents to Saddam Hussein. Rather I am concedeing that the sources I cited don't prove that that was the case. Yes we sold the ingredients, yes we sold the theory,yes we knew Hussein was using chemical weapons but we DDIID NOT sell it weaponized.
Posted by: chris lee at January 26, 2008 09:59 AM (qTV/d)
61
Chris, an unprovable point is useless. I might proclaim at the top of my voice that there is intelligent life on Pluto, but with no proof, of what value is my conviction that I am right?
Reasonable people work from facts to form theories, not come up with a theory and then dig around for facts to support it.
Are you a reasonable person, Chris?
Reasonable people work from facts to form theories, not come up with a theory and then dig around for facts to support it.
Are you a reasonable person, Chris?
Posted by: C-C-G at January 26, 2008 10:04 AM (HVE86)
62
Senator McCain's son, Jimmy, enlisted as a Marine, and is now serving in Iraq or recently served in Iraq.
So does this mean you'll vote for him, Chris? Because according to you, only those who run for office and have scion who enlisted have any gravitas in all matters of war. Or did I misunderstand your point??
Quoting sources that are acknowledged as biased, inaccurate, and misleading provides no credibility for your arguments.
I just came back from the Sundance Film Festival were a humorous short film titled "Fact Checkers Unit" screened.
Fact Checkers Unitis a spoof on CSI: it's about Fact Checkers who take their job as seriously as a homicide investigator.
You can view it on you-tube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPo9sCqza98
When asked where a certain "fact" came from, the reply was " wiki pedia".The fact checkers almost become apoplectic.
"Wikipedia: That's a user generated site, it could have been generated by a 7 yr old"
That sums up the reality of Wikipedia rather honestly!
You made a statement you claim IS fact - and then used a wikipedia piece as your substantiate that "fact" - a piece that wiki concedes is seriously flawed and cannot be taken at face value. Schaudenfrade, anyone?!
If you had any understanding of the complex nature of international relations and geo-politics, Chris, you'd recognize how erroneous the conclusions are that you draw. They are born not only of a lack of knowledge about complex nature int'l relations, but of a strong bias that filters what you read and interpret. I say this kindly.I am a card carrying Democrat, I lean left on more issues than I lean right. But NOT when it comes the war on terrorism.
Yet I do not give this administration a pass for a badly executed, badly thought out war.
Likewise I won't give you a pass for erroneous assumptions that you claim as facts, and I won't give you a pass for using admittedly questionable sources to support your argument, or your inability to understand the subtle but important difference between providing an ally with samples for medical research, vs providing them with samples to create bio weapons!!
You can only fight a war based on the threat that exists at that moment in time. You cannot fight it based on future that you have no way of knowing may come to pass.
That was the lesson expressed in "Charlie Wilson's War".
We supported Afghanistan in their fight against Russia because the spread of communism was our biggest threat at that time.
Did our noble achievement in Afghanistan indirectly set into motion the events of 9/11? Some would argue; YES. Douglas Adams and I would call this a holistic causation.
But regardless, at THAT time STOPPING the spread of communism was paramount for both the US and EUROPE. Charlie Wilson's war was a noble one!
Likewise, we can be friendly with a country when it doesn't seek to destroy us, or our allies. Years later, that friendship may prove fatal. But during the 1980's the friendship with Iraq was paramount to our nations interest and security!
The bio sample transfers came in the 1980s, when the United States supported Iraq in its war with Iran. Iraq was not our enemy at that time. We had no reason to believe they were lying about the use of those bio samples.
Was it naive of us to believe Saddam.It's easy to say YES NOW that Iraq has admitted they used the toxins not as intended but for biological weapons.
But at that time, IRAQ was not our enemy, so we gave them the benefit of the doubt. That's all part and parcel of the complex realities of international relations.
However that fact that Iraq later admitted to the United Nations that it had made weapons out of all three lends alot of support to the WMD reasoning for ousting Saddam!!
So does this mean you'll vote for him, Chris? Because according to you, only those who run for office and have scion who enlisted have any gravitas in all matters of war. Or did I misunderstand your point??
Quoting sources that are acknowledged as biased, inaccurate, and misleading provides no credibility for your arguments.
I just came back from the Sundance Film Festival were a humorous short film titled "Fact Checkers Unit" screened.
Fact Checkers Unitis a spoof on CSI: it's about Fact Checkers who take their job as seriously as a homicide investigator.
You can view it on you-tube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPo9sCqza98
When asked where a certain "fact" came from, the reply was " wiki pedia".The fact checkers almost become apoplectic.
"Wikipedia: That's a user generated site, it could have been generated by a 7 yr old"
That sums up the reality of Wikipedia rather honestly!
You made a statement you claim IS fact - and then used a wikipedia piece as your substantiate that "fact" - a piece that wiki concedes is seriously flawed and cannot be taken at face value. Schaudenfrade, anyone?!
If you had any understanding of the complex nature of international relations and geo-politics, Chris, you'd recognize how erroneous the conclusions are that you draw. They are born not only of a lack of knowledge about complex nature int'l relations, but of a strong bias that filters what you read and interpret. I say this kindly.I am a card carrying Democrat, I lean left on more issues than I lean right. But NOT when it comes the war on terrorism.
Yet I do not give this administration a pass for a badly executed, badly thought out war.
Likewise I won't give you a pass for erroneous assumptions that you claim as facts, and I won't give you a pass for using admittedly questionable sources to support your argument, or your inability to understand the subtle but important difference between providing an ally with samples for medical research, vs providing them with samples to create bio weapons!!
You can only fight a war based on the threat that exists at that moment in time. You cannot fight it based on future that you have no way of knowing may come to pass.
That was the lesson expressed in "Charlie Wilson's War".
We supported Afghanistan in their fight against Russia because the spread of communism was our biggest threat at that time.
Did our noble achievement in Afghanistan indirectly set into motion the events of 9/11? Some would argue; YES. Douglas Adams and I would call this a holistic causation.
But regardless, at THAT time STOPPING the spread of communism was paramount for both the US and EUROPE. Charlie Wilson's war was a noble one!
Likewise, we can be friendly with a country when it doesn't seek to destroy us, or our allies. Years later, that friendship may prove fatal. But during the 1980's the friendship with Iraq was paramount to our nations interest and security!
The bio sample transfers came in the 1980s, when the United States supported Iraq in its war with Iran. Iraq was not our enemy at that time. We had no reason to believe they were lying about the use of those bio samples.
Was it naive of us to believe Saddam.It's easy to say YES NOW that Iraq has admitted they used the toxins not as intended but for biological weapons.
But at that time, IRAQ was not our enemy, so we gave them the benefit of the doubt. That's all part and parcel of the complex realities of international relations.
However that fact that Iraq later admitted to the United Nations that it had made weapons out of all three lends alot of support to the WMD reasoning for ousting Saddam!!
Posted by: Huntress at January 26, 2008 02:30 PM (SfNIo)
63
Yet I do not give this administration a pass for a badly executed, badly thought out war.
I am a card-carrying Republican and self-described conservative, and I take issue with some of the incredible blunders we've had in this war, as well.
Of course, it must be said that blunders happen in every war. The Battle of the Bulge is one of the most famous examples... it never would have happened if there hadn't been several miscalculations made.
I am a card-carrying Republican and self-described conservative, and I take issue with some of the incredible blunders we've had in this war, as well.
Of course, it must be said that blunders happen in every war. The Battle of the Bulge is one of the most famous examples... it never would have happened if there hadn't been several miscalculations made.
Posted by: C-C-G at January 26, 2008 04:05 PM (HVE86)
64
My original statement was "My understanding is that we sold biological and chemical weapons to Saddam." I didn't GET that idea from Wikkipedia-incidentally they have that disclaimer on MANY of their entries. I just referred to it and another link in the process of posting on public access blog. YOUR post at the moment makes me modify my understanding to ..We apparently sold him the ingredients, the know how and other military hardware but did not supply weaponized chemical or biological agents, somehow the Central Intelligence Agency and State Department apparently had no idea that he would use those ingredients for those purposes even though we knew he was using chemical weapons. But YES it is unfair for me to put forward as a FACT the statement that we sold weaponized agents. Of course I never said it was fact, I only cited sources that I relied upon for my opinion. The general sentiment though is that the ARGUMENT put forth for the invasion as IMMANENT danger to the American people is hard to swallow. The Humanitarian side is arguable but problematic in light of our support of suppressive regimes like Pakistan, Kuwait and Saudi Arabia. As far as voting for McCain because his son is in Iraq..you are twisting my words. I was interested in knowing how many of the Republican candidates had of age sons and daughters in the conflict since they are trying to sell us on the certitude of the threat.
Posted by: Chris lee at January 26, 2008 06:42 PM (qTV/d)
65
Anybody who relies on Wikipedia for information deserves the ridicule they receive when they admit that.
Posted by: C-C-G at January 26, 2008 08:11 PM (HVE86)
66
The general sentiment though is that the ARGUMENT put forth for the invasion as IMMANENT danger to the American people is hard to swallow.
One more thing, Grasshopper.
Bush never said the danger was imminent. Here are his exact words from the 2003 (that is, pre-invasion) State of the Union address:
Some have said we must not act until the threat is imminent. Since when have terrorists and tyrants announced their intentions, politely putting us on notice before they strike?
Sounds to me like he is saying the threat is not imminent, but that it would be unwise to wait until it is imminent. Sort of like not waiting until your car's brakes actually fail (imminent threat of collision) before doing something about them.
Do you understand that, Grasshopper?
One more thing, Grasshopper.
Bush never said the danger was imminent. Here are his exact words from the 2003 (that is, pre-invasion) State of the Union address:
Some have said we must not act until the threat is imminent. Since when have terrorists and tyrants announced their intentions, politely putting us on notice before they strike?
Sounds to me like he is saying the threat is not imminent, but that it would be unwise to wait until it is imminent. Sort of like not waiting until your car's brakes actually fail (imminent threat of collision) before doing something about them.
Do you understand that, Grasshopper?
Posted by: C-C-G at January 26, 2008 08:39 PM (HVE86)
67
We apparently sold him the ingredients, the know how and other military hardware but did not supply weaponized chemical or biological agents, somehow the Central Intelligence Agency and State Department apparently had no idea that he would use those ingredients for those purposes even though we knew he was using chemical weapons.
What gives you the idea that the State Department and/or CIA had any input into or awareness whatsoever of those perfectly legal, utterly common sales of industrial chemicals? We, by which I suppose I mean American companies, are selling those items all over the world, today. And what know how and military hardware did we sell him? (You'll note that I cited the correct answer from your link above - think helicopters)
You never answered my question, chris. Should we not sell chlorine to places run by nasties?
What gives you the idea that the State Department and/or CIA had any input into or awareness whatsoever of those perfectly legal, utterly common sales of industrial chemicals? We, by which I suppose I mean American companies, are selling those items all over the world, today. And what know how and military hardware did we sell him? (You'll note that I cited the correct answer from your link above - think helicopters)
You never answered my question, chris. Should we not sell chlorine to places run by nasties?
Posted by: Pablo at January 26, 2008 10:50 PM (yTndK)
68
I have made my statement. I am a guest on a partisan website. I shouldn't expect to change anyone's mind. The dialogue has made m e change my position from "The US sold weapons to Saddam ." to "THe US sold the ingredients for chem weapons to Saddam." My basic position thousgh has not changed. We are not arguing about some otherwise successful Iraqui operation. We are talking about a debacle that has included fraudulent documents, thousands of lost IRaqui and US lives, no end in sight, very little prospect of a democratic outcome ..and all put to gether by a PNAC cabal of Vietnam draft dodgers.
Posted by: chris lee at January 27, 2008 10:30 AM (qTV/d)
69
Chris, check the latest news... the surge has worked, the country is under democratic rule, and you and your anti-war buddies have egg all over your collective faces.
I guess that's why you don't want to face up to reality, but would rather live in a fantasy world where Iraq=Vietnam.
I guess that's why you don't want to face up to reality, but would rather live in a fantasy world where Iraq=Vietnam.
Posted by: C-C-G at January 27, 2008 10:53 AM (HVE86)
70
So in other words, you're not going to let the facts get in the way of your poorly conceived position.
Should we not sell chlorine to countries with nasty governments, chris?
It's really a very simple question, answerable with either yes or no.
Should we not sell chlorine to countries with nasty governments, chris?
It's really a very simple question, answerable with either yes or no.
Posted by: Pablo at January 27, 2008 10:54 AM (yTndK)
71
and all put to gether by a PNAC cabal of Vietnam draft dodgers.
I didn't know that the Clintons and John Edwards were PNAC. You learn something new every day!
I didn't know that the Clintons and John Edwards were PNAC. You learn something new every day!
Posted by: Pablo at January 27, 2008 10:55 AM (yTndK)
72
Anybody who relies on Wikipedia for information deserves the ridicule they receive when they admit that.
I don't know, C-C-G. Wikipedia is actually a pretty good source for some kinds of information. I use it all the time to look up info on computer parts (especially processors and memory), for example. It's a good source when you're dealing with non-controversial topics.
It's just on controversial topics (e.g., anything remotely related to politics or religion) that Wikipedia fails -- because on those topics, the person who spends all his time revising an article to twist it to his point of view tends to win. Which means that the debate skews towards the most passionate/shrill (take your pick) voices. There are some corrective mechanisms in place (the "neutrality is disputed" tag, for example), but because of Wikipedia's "anyone can edit" policy, it's hard to stop those who really want to distort an article from doing so. All they have to do is have more patience and/or stubbornness then their opponents and they'll eventually win the "edit war".
But Wikipedia's still a great source for anything non-controversial.
I don't know, C-C-G. Wikipedia is actually a pretty good source for some kinds of information. I use it all the time to look up info on computer parts (especially processors and memory), for example. It's a good source when you're dealing with non-controversial topics.
It's just on controversial topics (e.g., anything remotely related to politics or religion) that Wikipedia fails -- because on those topics, the person who spends all his time revising an article to twist it to his point of view tends to win. Which means that the debate skews towards the most passionate/shrill (take your pick) voices. There are some corrective mechanisms in place (the "neutrality is disputed" tag, for example), but because of Wikipedia's "anyone can edit" policy, it's hard to stop those who really want to distort an article from doing so. All they have to do is have more patience and/or stubbornness then their opponents and they'll eventually win the "edit war".
But Wikipedia's still a great source for anything non-controversial.
Posted by: Robin Munn at January 27, 2008 12:25 PM (OGmxm)
73
Yeah, Chris, when President Clinton bombed Iraq, was he being a "chickenhawk" because he hadn't served?
I gotta remember that question for future chickenhawk accusations.
I gotta remember that question for future chickenhawk accusations.
Posted by: C-C-G at January 27, 2008 01:22 PM (HVE86)
74
Robin, even for computer parts--and I am a certified computer tech--I don't trust Wikipedia. It may be valuable in the way a search engine is, pointing one to other more reputable sites, but Wikipedia has far too many credibility problems for me to accept anything it says at face value.
Posted by: C-C-G at January 27, 2008 01:24 PM (HVE86)
75
But Wikipedia's still a great source for anything non-controversial.
It is. And the fact that it's free and easily accessible is a wonderful thing. That you can fix it where you see it lacking is even better yet. It's a great product of collective knowledge. And even in controversial areas, it's helpful by providing some direction to the various source material in question.
It isn't perfect by any means, but it's definitely quite useful, though the quality control is lacking.
It is. And the fact that it's free and easily accessible is a wonderful thing. That you can fix it where you see it lacking is even better yet. It's a great product of collective knowledge. And even in controversial areas, it's helpful by providing some direction to the various source material in question.
It isn't perfect by any means, but it's definitely quite useful, though the quality control is lacking.
Posted by: Pablo at January 27, 2008 02:04 PM (yTndK)
76
We'll have to agree to disagree on that one, Pablo.
Posted by: C-C-G at January 27, 2008 04:42 PM (HVE86)
77
CCG don't try the "Clinton Card" on me. I am only advocating a vigilant and critical electorate. I was very critical about Clinton and give a fair hearing to the Whitewater, Vince Foster, Ron Brown, Mark Rich stories et al. Again this is a partisan site and understandably your impulse is to defend every Bush/Cheney action against criticism. Fair enuff. It IS a free country and I am respectful of diversity in public opinion. Be well, and as Mike Myers in "Wayne's World" might say (Grand ole ) Party On. 
Posted by: chris lee at January 28, 2008 09:46 AM (6x0Nb)
78
C-C-G,
There's simply a ton of info there and it's easily accessible. The vast majority of it (anything political aside) is pretty good, and it's usually linked to other references. I wouldn't consider it the final word on anything, but I've found it very useful. I can't think of any other place that has so much information in one spot, though you do have to keep potential quality issues in mind.
chris, this isn't all that partisan a site. But you want to have your facts straight if you're going to wade in. The truth is non-partisan.
There's simply a ton of info there and it's easily accessible. The vast majority of it (anything political aside) is pretty good, and it's usually linked to other references. I wouldn't consider it the final word on anything, but I've found it very useful. I can't think of any other place that has so much information in one spot, though you do have to keep potential quality issues in mind.
chris, this isn't all that partisan a site. But you want to have your facts straight if you're going to wade in. The truth is non-partisan.
Posted by: Pablo at January 28, 2008 03:40 PM (yTndK)
79
Chris, I was not referring to the scandals. I referred only to his ordering airstrikes against Iraq, and the fact that he had not served himself, and wondered openly if he would be considered a "chickenhawk" thereby.
Your attempt to drag in lots of extra clutter just shows that you either do not have an answer to that, or that you have an answer that you choose not to reveal. I suspect the latter.
Also, to follow up on what Pablo told you: everyone is entitled to their own opinions, and I do not deny you that right. But you are not entitled to your own facts. A fact is a fact is a fact, and all your spin cannot change that.
Your attempt to drag in lots of extra clutter just shows that you either do not have an answer to that, or that you have an answer that you choose not to reveal. I suspect the latter.
Also, to follow up on what Pablo told you: everyone is entitled to their own opinions, and I do not deny you that right. But you are not entitled to your own facts. A fact is a fact is a fact, and all your spin cannot change that.
Posted by: C-C-G at January 28, 2008 07:47 PM (HVE86)
80
damn...i'm two days late.
chris--couple words of advice:
1. do your bloody research: "Spider’s Web: The Secret History of How the White House Illegally Armed Iraq", by Alan Friedman, 1993. follow the **money** trail--no ambiguous, "do WMD *components* count as WMDs?"-B.S.-peddling here--between soviet weapons-dealers and saudi/jordanian middlemen and atlanta bankers processing loans from the US dept. of agriculture to iraq. sure, it's murky (hence the title of the book) and the byzantine nature of the cash-for-weapons flow just screams "we've got plausible deniability!!", but for those of us in the real world (i.e., not on CY too terribly much), we know rummy--sportin' the biggest cheshire-grin you ever saw--wasn't pressin' the flesh with saddam back in the 80s 'fer nothin'.
2. word o' caution when citing books-as-references on CY: chances are, the folks 'round here haven't read them, so when you do list them, be ready for the disparage-the-author approach. take mr. friedman, for example: since he worked in the carter admin., he simply won't be capable of telling the truth, according to CY-ers, *regardless* of how much research and testimony and paperwork (the indices of "Spider's Web" are nothing but photocopies of State Dept., Federal Reserve, UK Foreign Office, etc. files) he might have collected. point is--CY-ers will not address the *evidence* compiled by the author, ever, if it conflicts with their particular p.o.v. instead, they will bend over backwards to give credence to the slightest aspersion cast (by anyone!) on the author or his/her research.
now to the point of the post, "Saddam Lied, People Died":
i'd like to see where saddam 'lied'. the man *never* said, in the lead-up to the war (which he alone on planet earth, apparently, didn't think was going to be a shooting war, after weeks of US build-up along his borders), that he indeed HAD WMDs, but issued denial after denial. so this statement is false: "Saddam Lied, People Died." ex.: Dec. 8, 2002 article--
"SADDAM'S BLUNDER; DENYING WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION EXIST IN IRAQ PLAYS RIGHT INTO U.S. HANDS
...
"Officials in Baghdad last week publicly denied having any weapons of mass destruction....
...
"For an administration that at times still seems to be searching for a definitive reason to wage war, Iraq's weapons denial could be just what Bush's hawks are hoping for.
"'If Iraq declares it has nothing, the chances of war escalate dramatically,' says [former UN weapons inspector David] Albright.
...
"Indications are that's exactly the direction Iraq is headed. 'We are a country devoid of weapons of mass destruction,' Hussam Mohammed Amin, head of the Iraqi National Monitoring Directorate, announced last week.
...
"'Even if it's true, nobody's going to believe them,' Albright notes. 'It's just not the Iraqi way to make a voluntary decision to give those weapons up. Although that would be the ultimate irony -- if Iraq really had no weapons of mass destruction, but we went to war anyway.'"
http://www.globalsecurity.org/org/news/2002/021208-iraq04.htm
of course, that's the most galling thing about the last five years--US was playing a 'heads-I-win, tails-you-lose" game with iraq, a shell game iraq *couldn't* win, even if they had "complied" 100% of every dot and tittle of the US' demands. but that's old hat. but where's the saddam lie, CCG? he frustrated the inspectors, but denied having WMDs. turns out he was telling the truth. NOW, in an orwellian attempt to rewrite history, the headlines are screaming, ""Saddam still wouldn't admit he had no weapons of mass destruction" and "Saddam let on he had WMD to deter Iran, FBI agent says" and "Saddam Hussein faked having WMD". HE DID NO SUCH THING in the months leading up to the war--he denied, denied, denied, but he hamstrung the inspectors as much as he could (and he wasn't very successful at that, either, if you actually look at the UN record).
chris--couple words of advice:
1. do your bloody research: "Spider’s Web: The Secret History of How the White House Illegally Armed Iraq", by Alan Friedman, 1993. follow the **money** trail--no ambiguous, "do WMD *components* count as WMDs?"-B.S.-peddling here--between soviet weapons-dealers and saudi/jordanian middlemen and atlanta bankers processing loans from the US dept. of agriculture to iraq. sure, it's murky (hence the title of the book) and the byzantine nature of the cash-for-weapons flow just screams "we've got plausible deniability!!", but for those of us in the real world (i.e., not on CY too terribly much), we know rummy--sportin' the biggest cheshire-grin you ever saw--wasn't pressin' the flesh with saddam back in the 80s 'fer nothin'.
2. word o' caution when citing books-as-references on CY: chances are, the folks 'round here haven't read them, so when you do list them, be ready for the disparage-the-author approach. take mr. friedman, for example: since he worked in the carter admin., he simply won't be capable of telling the truth, according to CY-ers, *regardless* of how much research and testimony and paperwork (the indices of "Spider's Web" are nothing but photocopies of State Dept., Federal Reserve, UK Foreign Office, etc. files) he might have collected. point is--CY-ers will not address the *evidence* compiled by the author, ever, if it conflicts with their particular p.o.v. instead, they will bend over backwards to give credence to the slightest aspersion cast (by anyone!) on the author or his/her research.
now to the point of the post, "Saddam Lied, People Died":
i'd like to see where saddam 'lied'. the man *never* said, in the lead-up to the war (which he alone on planet earth, apparently, didn't think was going to be a shooting war, after weeks of US build-up along his borders), that he indeed HAD WMDs, but issued denial after denial. so this statement is false: "Saddam Lied, People Died." ex.: Dec. 8, 2002 article--
"SADDAM'S BLUNDER; DENYING WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION EXIST IN IRAQ PLAYS RIGHT INTO U.S. HANDS
...
"Officials in Baghdad last week publicly denied having any weapons of mass destruction....
...
"For an administration that at times still seems to be searching for a definitive reason to wage war, Iraq's weapons denial could be just what Bush's hawks are hoping for.
"'If Iraq declares it has nothing, the chances of war escalate dramatically,' says [former UN weapons inspector David] Albright.
...
"Indications are that's exactly the direction Iraq is headed. 'We are a country devoid of weapons of mass destruction,' Hussam Mohammed Amin, head of the Iraqi National Monitoring Directorate, announced last week.
...
"'Even if it's true, nobody's going to believe them,' Albright notes. 'It's just not the Iraqi way to make a voluntary decision to give those weapons up. Although that would be the ultimate irony -- if Iraq really had no weapons of mass destruction, but we went to war anyway.'"
http://www.globalsecurity.org/org/news/2002/021208-iraq04.htm
of course, that's the most galling thing about the last five years--US was playing a 'heads-I-win, tails-you-lose" game with iraq, a shell game iraq *couldn't* win, even if they had "complied" 100% of every dot and tittle of the US' demands. but that's old hat. but where's the saddam lie, CCG? he frustrated the inspectors, but denied having WMDs. turns out he was telling the truth. NOW, in an orwellian attempt to rewrite history, the headlines are screaming, ""Saddam still wouldn't admit he had no weapons of mass destruction" and "Saddam let on he had WMD to deter Iran, FBI agent says" and "Saddam Hussein faked having WMD". HE DID NO SUCH THING in the months leading up to the war--he denied, denied, denied, but he hamstrung the inspectors as much as he could (and he wasn't very successful at that, either, if you actually look at the UN record).
Posted by: j at January 30, 2008 03:49 PM (miTHt)
81
Hey, J, if he was denying that he had WMDs, why did he keep messing with the weapons inspectors who were supposed to verify that? If he admitted he had no WMDs, he should have personally escorted the inspectors everywhere they wanted to go and show them the destruction of the ones he had possessed.
Your screed makes no logical sense... which is, come to think of it, about par for the course for you.
Your screed makes no logical sense... which is, come to think of it, about par for the course for you.
Posted by: C-C-G at January 30, 2008 10:03 PM (HVE86)
82
oops--i forgot you were home-schooled, CCG. the rest of us can deduce for ourselves how street-cred works in the middle east (or anywhere, come to think of it: what administration would americans support that allowed the UN unfettered access to *our* nuclear sites, hmm?).
Posted by: j at January 31, 2008 12:14 AM (miTHt)
83
Actually, your statements about my education are as factual as your statements on everything else, J... that is, not at all.
I was never home schooled, sir, for the record.
However, several great men were... including Thomas Alva Edison.
I was never home schooled, sir, for the record.
However, several great men were... including Thomas Alva Edison.
Posted by: C-C-G at January 31, 2008 12:22 AM (HVE86)
84
ok, so how many home-schoolers does it take to screw in a light bulb? point is, "Saddam Lied, People Died" is a lie. he never claimed he had WMDs in the two years Bush was in office prior to the invasion, but we know from insider testimony (re: Treasury Sec'y Paul O'Neill*) that Iraq was 'on the table from Jan. 2001. furthermore, there seems to be some evidence that he was willing to go into exile to stave off an invasion:
"Did Saddam accept exile offer before invasion?
Arab leaders scuttled deal aimed at avoiding war, UAE officials say--Oct. 29, 2005
"Saddam Hussein accepted an 11th-hour offer to flee into exile weeks ahead of the U.S.-led 2003 invasion, but Arab League officials scuttled the proposal, officials in [Dubai] claimed."
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9864433/
needless-to-say, it never happened. like his claiming he had WMDs before the invasion. don't rewrite history, CCG.
*Price of Loyalty: George W. Bush, the White House and the Education of Paul O'Neill, by Ron Suskind (2004)
"Did Saddam accept exile offer before invasion?
Arab leaders scuttled deal aimed at avoiding war, UAE officials say--Oct. 29, 2005
"Saddam Hussein accepted an 11th-hour offer to flee into exile weeks ahead of the U.S.-led 2003 invasion, but Arab League officials scuttled the proposal, officials in [Dubai] claimed."
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9864433/
needless-to-say, it never happened. like his claiming he had WMDs before the invasion. don't rewrite history, CCG.
*Price of Loyalty: George W. Bush, the White House and the Education of Paul O'Neill, by Ron Suskind (2004)
Posted by: j at January 31, 2008 12:55 AM (miTHt)
85
Again, we're back to the original question. Why didn't he just come forward and show the UN that he had no WMDs? Bush would have looked like a fool, the sanctions and no-fly zones would have evaporated, and so on and so forth.
Posted by: C-C-G at January 31, 2008 09:31 AM (HVE86)
86
CCG, all snark aside: either you are a useful idiot to this administration and your naivete is astounding, or you are a paid propagandist for the same. you seriously believe, with a straight face, that if saddam had complied 100% with the UN resolutions, not only would there not have been a war, but that the sanctions, the 'no-fly' zones, the embargo etc. would have "evaporated"? you take your readers for fools.
taking you for simply being misinformed, however, i'll refer you to David Manning's (Tony Blair's chief foreign policy advisor) memo of a Blair-Bush Oval Office meeting on 01/31/03, in which the war and its aftermath was planned in detail, *regardless* of whether or not saddam complied with Security Council Resolution 1441.
i'll also refer you to the now-infamous Downing Street Memo, drafted in the summer of 2002 by Richard Dearlove, then head of MI6, in which Bush and Blair discuss removing saddam *regardless*:
"Military action was now seen as inevitable. Bush wanted to remove Saddam, through military action, justified by the conjunction of terrorism and WMD. But the intelligence and facts were being fixed around the policy."
and again i'll refer you to Paul O'Neill's testimony, cited above.
but should you think i am overly critical of this white house, consider that Madeleine Albright declared for years that disarmament was the key to lifting the sanctions, only to say, in her first major foreign policy address as Sec'y of State:
"We do not agree with the nations who argue that if Iraq complies with its obligations concerning weapons of mass destruction, sanctions should be lifted. [!] Our view, which is unshakable, is that Iraq must prove its peaceful intentions. It can only do that by complying with all of the Security Council resolutions to which it is subjected. Is it possible to conceive of such a government under Saddam Hussein? [T]he evidence is overwhelming that Saddam Hussein's intentions will never be peaceful." --26 March 1997, Georgetown U.
i.e., since iraq must "prove its peaceful intentions", and saddam's intentions "will never be peaceful", it is inconceivable that a sanction-free iraq can emerge while he is in power; ergo, "[the US] do[es] not agree with the nations who argue that if Iraq complies with its obligations concerning weapons of mass destruction, sanctions should be lifted."
George Lopez and David Cortright, who have served as consultants for the UN's Department of Humanitarian Affairs, wrote,
"The Security Council's refusal to reciprocate Iraq's partial concessions [by lifting the medicine and food sanctions] suggests that the purpose of the continuing sanctions, at least for the U.S., is no longer (or was never merely) to enforce Resolution 687 [disarmament]. The political goalposts have been moved. Resolution 687 states explicitly that the ban on Iraqi exports will be lifted when Iraq complies with UN weapons inspections. But U.S. Secretary of State Madeleine Albright declared in March 1997 that the U.S. does not accept this view. This is implicit in the many statements from U.S. officials that the sanctions will not be lifted until Saddam Hussein is removed from power."
supporting this interpretation of US intentions is a november 1997 statement by then-president Clinton that "sanctions will be there until the end of time, or as long as he lasts."
but let's go back even further, lest you believe this was all after hussein had consistently shown bad faith in given UNSCOM the run-around. BEFORE the bulk of the UNSCOM-Hussein show-downs, we hear from Bush Sr.'s white house:
"Saddam is discredited and cannot be redeemed. His leadership will never be accepted by the world community and, therefore, Iraqis will pay the price while he remains in power. All possible sanctions will be maintained until he is gone. Any easing of sanctions will be considered only when there is a new government."
that from Robert M. Gates, Deputy National Security Adviser, on 7 May 1991.
before him, Bush Sr. himself said, at a white house briefing on 16 April 1991:
"Do I think the answer is now for Saddam Hussein to be kicked out? Absolutely because there will not be there will not be normalized relations with the United States...until Saddam Hussein is out of there. And we will continue the economic sanctions."
so you see, disarmament was irrelevant: hussein had to go, regardless of whether he complied or not. like you said yourself: "[Y]ou are not entitled to your own facts. A fact is a fact is a fact, and all your spin cannot change that."
"Saddam Lied, People Died" is a lie.
taking you for simply being misinformed, however, i'll refer you to David Manning's (Tony Blair's chief foreign policy advisor) memo of a Blair-Bush Oval Office meeting on 01/31/03, in which the war and its aftermath was planned in detail, *regardless* of whether or not saddam complied with Security Council Resolution 1441.
i'll also refer you to the now-infamous Downing Street Memo, drafted in the summer of 2002 by Richard Dearlove, then head of MI6, in which Bush and Blair discuss removing saddam *regardless*:
"Military action was now seen as inevitable. Bush wanted to remove Saddam, through military action, justified by the conjunction of terrorism and WMD. But the intelligence and facts were being fixed around the policy."
and again i'll refer you to Paul O'Neill's testimony, cited above.
but should you think i am overly critical of this white house, consider that Madeleine Albright declared for years that disarmament was the key to lifting the sanctions, only to say, in her first major foreign policy address as Sec'y of State:
"We do not agree with the nations who argue that if Iraq complies with its obligations concerning weapons of mass destruction, sanctions should be lifted. [!] Our view, which is unshakable, is that Iraq must prove its peaceful intentions. It can only do that by complying with all of the Security Council resolutions to which it is subjected. Is it possible to conceive of such a government under Saddam Hussein? [T]he evidence is overwhelming that Saddam Hussein's intentions will never be peaceful." --26 March 1997, Georgetown U.
i.e., since iraq must "prove its peaceful intentions", and saddam's intentions "will never be peaceful", it is inconceivable that a sanction-free iraq can emerge while he is in power; ergo, "[the US] do[es] not agree with the nations who argue that if Iraq complies with its obligations concerning weapons of mass destruction, sanctions should be lifted."
George Lopez and David Cortright, who have served as consultants for the UN's Department of Humanitarian Affairs, wrote,
"The Security Council's refusal to reciprocate Iraq's partial concessions [by lifting the medicine and food sanctions] suggests that the purpose of the continuing sanctions, at least for the U.S., is no longer (or was never merely) to enforce Resolution 687 [disarmament]. The political goalposts have been moved. Resolution 687 states explicitly that the ban on Iraqi exports will be lifted when Iraq complies with UN weapons inspections. But U.S. Secretary of State Madeleine Albright declared in March 1997 that the U.S. does not accept this view. This is implicit in the many statements from U.S. officials that the sanctions will not be lifted until Saddam Hussein is removed from power."
supporting this interpretation of US intentions is a november 1997 statement by then-president Clinton that "sanctions will be there until the end of time, or as long as he lasts."
but let's go back even further, lest you believe this was all after hussein had consistently shown bad faith in given UNSCOM the run-around. BEFORE the bulk of the UNSCOM-Hussein show-downs, we hear from Bush Sr.'s white house:
"Saddam is discredited and cannot be redeemed. His leadership will never be accepted by the world community and, therefore, Iraqis will pay the price while he remains in power. All possible sanctions will be maintained until he is gone. Any easing of sanctions will be considered only when there is a new government."
that from Robert M. Gates, Deputy National Security Adviser, on 7 May 1991.
before him, Bush Sr. himself said, at a white house briefing on 16 April 1991:
"Do I think the answer is now for Saddam Hussein to be kicked out? Absolutely because there will not be there will not be normalized relations with the United States...until Saddam Hussein is out of there. And we will continue the economic sanctions."
so you see, disarmament was irrelevant: hussein had to go, regardless of whether he complied or not. like you said yourself: "[Y]ou are not entitled to your own facts. A fact is a fact is a fact, and all your spin cannot change that."
"Saddam Lied, People Died" is a lie.
Posted by: j at January 31, 2008 12:30 PM (miTHt)
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