Confederate Yankee
November 20, 2009
Hacked Emails Show Climate Change Scientists Committing Fraud
The climate always changes. It is in a state of constant flux, and thought to be primarily driven by the warming and cooling cycles of our sun (which has a climate of its own), a fact that disreputable scientists competing for billions in grant money have sought to minimize in recent years as they championed what can only be referred to as scare-mongering for dollars.
Via
Hot Air, it seems that one of the major climate change advocacy centers recently had their email systems hacked and had their internal emails posted online. It seems that University of East Anglia Climate Research Unit has been caught red-handed discussing techniques to generate fraudulent data:
From: Phil Jones
To: ray bradley ,mann@xxxxx.xxx, mhughes@xxxx.xxx
Subject: Diagram for WMO Statement
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 13:31:15 +0000
Cc: k.briffa@xxx.xx.xx,t.osborn@xxxx.xxx
Dear Ray, Mike and Malcolm,
Once Tim’s got a diagram here we’ll send that either later today or
first thing tomorrow.
I’ve just completed Mike’s Nature trick of adding in the real temps
to each series for the last 20 years (ie from 1981 onwards) amd from
1961 for Keith’s to hide the decline. Mike’s series got the annual
land and marine values while the other two got April-Sept for NH land
N of 20N. The latter two are real for 1999, while the estimate for 1999
for NH combined is +0.44C wrt 61-90. The Global estimate for 1999 with
data through Oct is +0.35C cf. 0.57 for 1998.
Thanks for the comments, Ray.
Cheers
Phil
Prof. Phil Jones
Climatic Research Unit Telephone +44 (0) xxxxx
School of Environmental Sciences Fax +44 (0) xxxx
University of East Anglia
Norwich Email p.jones@xxxx.xxx
NR4 7TJ
UK
Somehow, I think Al manbearpig Gore will ignore this.
He's serial.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
09:18 AM
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Bob, happy to see you have found what may be the hottest story in the climate debate. It is tearing up the climate skeptical blogs. How long before the press picks it up?
BTW, for those who wonder is it a fake? Nope! Hadley has confirmed the hacking and several of the skeptics whose emails were included have verified they are accurate.
One thing it does show is the potential Freedom of Information fraud!
Posted by: CoRev at November 20, 2009 09:28 AM (0U8Ob)
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Well guys, if based upon that you claim that data was fudged it must be a slow news day or somebody desperately needs to cling to straws
Posted by: Alf at November 20, 2009 09:35 AM (E9Fji)
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Alf ... "somebody desperately needs to cling to straws..." And that somebody is you.
Marianne Matthews
Posted by: Marianne Matthews at November 20, 2009 09:52 AM (VbbNx)
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I'm cold. But that can't be thanks to global warming.
Posted by: DavidB at November 20, 2009 10:27 AM (IbZ+0)
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American Power tracked-back with (a BIG roundup), 'Global Warming Hoax Breaks Wide Open as Hackers Target East Anglia Climate Research Unit!'.
Posted by: Americaneocon at November 20, 2009 02:50 PM (ZslWq)
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Alf's response is highly revealing. Check his email. He's a sock-puppet and he is slinging what they think is their best defense. Remember when Gibbs claimed to Jake Tapper, that anyone resorting to a dictionary to learn the meaning of the word "tax" was grasping at straws? Geithner uses a similar formulation. Note the advantages: no specific rebuttal is necessary. The whole point of the statement is that it is self-evidently... well what? Dismissible obviously but why? Neither the Alfs or Obamas of this world claim it is an outright falsehood because that in itself is a fact to be proven true or false. Indeed, given the metaphor, and the well-known effect of straws on camels, what they seem to be saying is that yes, this is true but trivial. Holder's evasions are rife with this gambit that relies on the confidence of the audience in the speaker. This vapid exhalation amounts in essence to an appeal to authority and that authority c'est moi. But this implies the proper tactical application of this revelation. Ignore it. The case against ACGW does not require that the other side be proven to be falsifying their work. It rests on the simple fact that there is no global warming, man-caused or otherwise. There is global cooling and it is ramping up. Or more accurately, down. The proper frontline response to the Warmies is simple laughter. If they persist in making their phony case then more meticulous data may be called for but keep this in reserve. It is a short range but powerful weapon. They must be teased into range.
Posted by: megapotamus at November 20, 2009 03:00 PM (YlzTX)
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Marianne, don't doubt Alf, he's thuper thereal
Posted by: MAModerate at November 20, 2009 03:01 PM (SVD0U)
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>>"if based upon that you claim that data was fudged it must be a slow news day"
The email discusses fudging the data!
I really think the cure for liberalism consists of teaching Americans to read while still young.
Posted by: Steve at November 20, 2009 03:06 PM (H/yko)
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Hey, "Alf". Any relation to "Jim"?
Posted by: Steve at November 20, 2009 03:07 PM (H/yko)
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This graphic explains most of what I know for CERTAIN about this issue:
http://i45.tinypic.com/iwq8a1.jpg
Posted by: NikFromNYC at November 20, 2009 04:33 PM (h8GQ1)
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Steve wrote:
'I really think the cure for liberalism consists of teaching Americans to read while still young.'
That is precisely correct. The current fad of Whole Language (actually an extension of Whole Word, due to the obvious failure of Whole Word teaching) is fraud based on a falsehood, and it is maintained by an education establishment devoted to manipulating its customers (the students).
If a foreign power did what our own education colleges have done, it would (rightly) be considered an act of war.
Best regards, Peter Warner.
Posted by: Peter Warner at November 21, 2009 12:15 PM (JRnGT)
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2005; Email # 1120593115:
" From: Phil Jones
To: John Christy
Subject: This and that
Date: Tue Jul 5 15:51:55 2005
John,
There has been some email traffic in the last few days to a week - quite
a bit really, only a small part about MSU. The main part has been one of
your House subcommittees wanting Mike Mann and others and IPCC
to respond on how they produced their reconstructions and how IPCC
produced their report.
In case you want to look at this see later in the email !
Also this load of rubbish !
This is from an Australian at BMRC (not Neville Nicholls). It began from the attached
article. What an idiot.
The SCIENTIFIC COMMUNITY WOULD COME DOWN ON ME IN NO
UNCERTAIN TERMS IF I SAID THE WORLD HAD COOLED FROM 1998.
OK IT HAS BUT IT IS ONLY 7 YEARS OF DATA AND IT ISN'T STATISTICALLY SIGNIFICANT.
The Australian also alerted me to this blogging ! I think this is the term ! Luckily I don't live in Australia."
One's reminded of Welch to McCarthy,
"You have done enough. Have you no sense of decency sir, at long last? Have you left no sense of decency?"
Posted by: IAmDigitap at November 22, 2009 08:49 AM (xXuy6)
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I am so happy. My common sense has been screaming at me all these years. The proof is finally here !! Where the HELL is that liar, Al Gore? He built his life around this fraud. Is the liberal media going to ask him any questions?
Posted by: Eric at November 24, 2009 01:17 PM (BC+1Z)
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Can anyone direct me to the data from Norwich?
Posted by: Mike at November 25, 2009 05:12 PM (z8VAh)
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November 19, 2009
ACORN. Juvenile Prostitution. Los Angeles.
Stop me if you've heard this before, again.
I'm really starting to wonder exactly what it was Barack Obama was teaching these people. Needless to say, the consistent, nearly uniform acceptance of the sex slavery of minors should be grounds for dozens of investigations of the Democratic Party's shock troops. The fact that nothing has been forthcoming merely reinforces that the racketeering goes well beyond the street-level accomplices caught on tape.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
11:34 PM
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Forget LA. We have a woman here in NC who may have allowed her child to abused and then killed to satisfy a drug debt.
Nothing surprises me with these leftists, incapable as they are to see true evil.
Posted by: Anthony Scott at November 20, 2009 12:15 AM (72uV8)
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Community organizing at its best!
http://www.hackwilson.blogspot.com
Posted by: Hack at November 20, 2009 01:25 AM (+KNJW)
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Womb Raider Vows Return to Normalcy
But we all know Andrew Sullivan will wallow in insanity for the rest of his natural-borne days.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
11:34 AM
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I don't worry about Andi Sullivan. Or Levi Johnston. Or Charles Johnson.
But I am worried that the blogs I like to read every day will not stop talking about them.
Because I don't read blogs after it is clear that they are so in love that they can't shut up.
Posted by: Larry Sheldon at November 19, 2009 03:58 PM (OmeRL)
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Why is it I can't get a link accepted?
Posted by: Papa Ray at November 19, 2009 08:07 PM (JpVJn)
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"Excitable Andy" needs a womb of his own.
Posted by: Neo at November 20, 2009 07:50 PM (tE8FB)
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November 18, 2009
If Socialized Medicine Did This to Him, What Would it do to You?
A dirty little secret of mine is a love of mixed martial arts. Right now, the biggest star in the biggest MMA promotion is heavyweight titleholder Brock Lesnar of the Ultimate Fighting Championship.
At 6'3" and 265 lbs of ripped muscle, the 32-year old former NCAA wrestling champion is arguably one of the most dangerous MAA fighters in the world today, and yet his career may be jeopardy... and at least one person is blaming his health problems on
Canadian health care:
Brock Lesnar's chiropractor blames the Canadian medical system for failing to manage the UFC fighter's mystery illness after he collapsed here last week.
"His symptoms became severe while in Canada, which because of their health care system made it difficult to manage. And at this point it's a possibility that it could jeopardize his career," chiropractor Larry Novotny told KSAX-TV news in Alexandria, MN, according to the network's website.
Yeah, I know... an unknown chiropractor in Minnesota isn't exactly
House (though he may be as qualified to comment on the quality of Canadian health care as Hugh Laurie).
But let us accept for the moment the possibility that Novotny is correct.
If a highly-conditioned professional athlete at the top of his game could see his health and career threatened by the inadequacies of socialized medicine, what would it do to those of us who aren't in that kind of shape?
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
01:42 PM
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I live up here in the Great White North (Toronto), but am originally from California. So I've seen both systems. Can only speak about my experience, and for me they are about the same. The wait times here are longer for routine, non-urgent stuff, but quality of care is excellent and everyone has equal access to top specialists, even if you're not rich or well-connected. Had great care in California(Kaiser) through work as well. Here if I lose my job I don't lose my coverage,and that's a good feeling. I'm a conservative (go Steven Harper!)but here it's not a lib/con thing, nor should it be IMO. The conservatives are committed to our system ,and it's as natural as universal education or a public police force. I don't think there's any reason to be scared of it.
Posted by: Will Butler at November 18, 2009 05:07 PM (LgpMF)
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@Will,
Part of the reason it's not a conservative issue in Canada would be due to the lack of the US Constitution applying to Canada. As a Conservative in the US, our Constitution defines Consevatism. As such, not only do I find the Federal government has no business providing healthcare, I also find that 'universal education' is un-Constitutional, as would be a FEDERAL police force. I'm not afraid of what they would do... oh wait, yes I am, after all, I've attended both private and public schools in the US. But either way, the simple fact is the Federal government has no right to legislate healthcare in the United States of America. That is the Conservative position. Whether or not they would or could do it well is a moot point and open to debate.
Posted by: Kat at November 18, 2009 09:06 PM (UQf9a)
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As Kat aptly put it the Federal Government has no business in health care. Do we need some changes/reform? Yes, but this is not the answer.
Anyone involved in problem solving occupations will tell you you don't "go big" with the solution unless its absolutely clear that it is the only way to correct an issue. Make small changes, examine the results, are they good or bad? If they are bad back them out and try something else. If you make multiple sweeping changes to a system it becomes difficult to know which change had positive or negative effects.
Start with tort reform, then allow coverage to be purchased across state lines, and finally work out a way to make health care less attached to to one's employment while still encouraging employers to participate. Also secure the darn borders and deport illegals, stop the drain on our social services by people who are not paying back into the system and never will.
Posted by: Scott at November 19, 2009 10:26 AM (6yHgW)
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Please don't ever use a chiropractor as an authority. They are not trained in medicine in the least and are a true danger. I would consider the average individual with a high school education to know more about medical care than a chiropractor.
As to being concerned for the bill in congress, we should all be very frightened. As good example is the recent announcement of Obama's doctors that mammograms are not necessary and women should not be taught to do self exam. Although this is recommendation at this time, with passage of the bill, this will be law. They will then make it so that you will not even be able to pay for the care you desire. After all, we all have to be equal. That means that if your wife is worried about a lump, she will just have to worry until she dies.
We have some minor issues with health insurance companies. We do not have to change the whole system.
Posted by: David at November 19, 2009 02:08 PM (PpoBw)
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Kat wrote - 'Part of the reason it's not a conservative issue in Canada would be due to the lack of the US Constitution applying to Canada'
Wow, what an amazing comment. Is this suggesting that Canada would be better off if the US Constitution applied to them? Do you realize that other countries have their own constitutions? You'll also have to enlighten me as to how Conservatism is part of the Constitution as I'm not from the US and find it difficult to see how a political point of view could be written into the constitution of a country that promotes how free it is. I also find it interesting how 'anti-FEDERAL involvement' many US conservatives are but no mention of how much power the individual states have. It appears you're country is like an organisation that wants everything decentralized, with a hate for head office but a love for the many branches. With modern telecommunications and transport, the US could be run efficiently with less than 20 states. Australia is about the same size as mainland US and we have 8 states and terriroties. Granted, we only have a population of 20mil so that's why I gave an allowance for more states. 'Economies of Scale' is what its' called (I think).
Anyway, regarding healthcare, ever thought of running a hybrid system like Australia. My pregnant wife can choose a private or public hospital because we have private health insurance on top of what the govt provides. It's relatively cheap, possibly due to no state legislation stopping companies competing across state lines and our litigation payouts aren't as much. If we didn't buy private insurance, then she could go to a public hospital for free.
Posted by: Dickie at November 19, 2009 10:18 PM (HfITa)
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You'll also have to enlighten me as to how Conservatism is part of the Constitution as I'm not from the US and find it difficult to see how a political point of view could be written into the constitution of a country that promotes how free it is.
Did a double-take on this. Please explain to me how it would be possible to write ANY political document without an underlying point of view. This would be like writing a curriculum without an underlying theory of learning, or a catechism without an underlying theology. It's not possible.
In this particular case, the underlying political theory states that liberty inheres to all people equally by nature, that government derives all its power from the consent of the governed, that flawed humans cannot be trusted with unchallenged power, and that individuals have rights to enjoy the fruit of their labors. I could elaborate more, but perhaps you'd do well to read the Declaration of Independence, in which Thomas Jefferson expresses the main ideas succinctly. And yes, this is a very distinct political philosophy, not the absence of one.
It is not the case that "conservatism is written into the Constitution," and that's not what Kat wrote. What she wrote was that American conservatives draw their political position from the US Constitution. The Constitution came first. Modern, American conservatives attempt to conform to the political philosophy articulated there.
Kat made no claim that all nations must adhere to the US Constitution, and yes, other nations use other documents and other philosophies. What she did claim was that conservatives in Canada may take different positions from conservatives in the US because US conservatives are attempting to apply a document to current affairs that Canadians don't use. Her claim was both reasonable and correct.
There. Wasn't that simple?
Posted by: philwynk at November 20, 2009 09:39 AM (A/GHz)
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Obama: Yeah, It's a Show Trial
What did you expect, folks? Leftists love this stuff:
Americans who are troubled by the decision to send alleged Sept. 11 mastermind Khalid Sheikh Mohammed to New York for trial will feel better about it when he's put to death, President Barack Obama said Tuesday.
During a round of network television interviews conducted during Obama's visit to China, the president was asked about those who find it offensive that Mohammed will receive all the rights normally accorded to U.S. citizens when they are charged with a crime.
"I don't think it will be offensive at all when he's convicted and when the death penalty is applied to him," Obama told NBC's Chuck Todd.
When Todd asked Obama if he was interfering in the trial process by declaring that Mohammed will be executed, Obama, a former constitutional law professor, insisted that he wasn't trying to dictate the result.
Bull. Crap.
The Administration is
only holding these civil trials in New York because his Justice Department assures him that these show trials are merely a formality. Obama has every intention of using the body of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed as a podium from which he will no doubt trumpet his toughness in the war on terror, even as he finds a way to tuck his tail between his legs and scamper home from fighting al Qaeda and the Taliban without finishing the job.
Barack Obama doesn't care about justice. He cares about appearances. He'll have his show trials and the execution of these five, even as he leaves
another 75 to rot in prison with no intention of bringing the to trial. KSM deserves no better and no different than his peers. There is no obligation to bring any of them to trial, and indefinite detention or even summary execution of terrorists is perfectly legal.
Unfortunately for Mohammed, his admitted show trial makes for better optics for our President's planned retreats.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
11:54 AM
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Somebody else (I forget who--blog up-alphabet from here) suggest that the Obamaplan is to find him not guilty (my take "dismissed with prejudice) because the perp was not Mirandized) to be followed by war-crimes trials of Bush and others.
Got to win this election some how!
Posted by: Larry Sheldon at November 18, 2009 01:16 PM (OmeRL)
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Aside of the intention of making him look "tough" on terrorists (an impossible dream, to be sure) Obama & Co. will use this show trial to put Bush & Cheney on trial. Personally, I believe this to be the prime objective.
Posted by: Leo Pusateri at November 18, 2009 01:44 PM (Sh18W)
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It is a win - win for Obama.
He gets a show trial.
He gets to release documents for trial that he got in trouble for when the White House did it. He gets people distracted about things that Bush did (of didn't do) so that some of the heat will be off of him regarding what he needs to do now (after all, BDS worked during the election).
Posted by: Gunstar1 at November 18, 2009 03:07 PM (zh8i1)
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I feel sorry for all of you. Paranoid, deluded and blind to the real world. If Bush and Cheney had had the balls to do the right thing and try terrorists
in the greatest democracy in the world, you'd be cheering. But, since it's Obama, you're stripes change. It's pathetic to watch.
When the Nuremberg trials were considered, many Americans didn't want those trials either. They felt that the only end result for Nazi scum should be the end of a rope. Cries of "what if they escape!?" and fear mongering was rife. Stalin in particular was adamant about the trials not going forward. And, FDR had to convince Churchill. In the end, a compromise was reached: a dual civilian and military court. (Since Germany was under military jurisdiction at the time.)
The Nuremberg Trials were widely mocked at the time around the world as "Show trials". And, in many ways, they were. There was no way in hell that they were going to let any of those Nazi's out of jail. Goering was going to swing one way or the other.
But, it wasn't about the Nazi's in the end. And, it's not about the terrorists in the end. It's about the rule of law. And, yes, it's imperfect. And, ugly. But, all of you here seem to have forgotten in your ideological zeal is that we are a nation of laws. And, not giving terrorists a trial - yes, even a show one - is worse.
That's what they understood back in 1945.
But, they were braver back then. Now, all anyone cares about is their little patch of reality.
Posted by: Cold Heart at November 18, 2009 03:39 PM (qYBm3)
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The Neuremberg trials were military courts, trying Nazis accused of heinous crimes. They set the standards for military trials. We welcome those types of trials, with all their safeguards for national security. Military trials need not be secret star chambers.
Posted by: garrettc at November 18, 2009 03:45 PM (DQjJA)
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I just googled Nuermberg Trials and guess what? Of the first 18 defendents, 3 were found not guilty, 5 found guilty and sentenced to 10 -15 years, and 10 were found guilty and subsequently hanged.
Posted by: garrettc at November 18, 2009 03:52 PM (DQjJA)
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>>"If Bush and Cheney had had the balls to do the right thing and try terrorists"
They did try terrorists. KSM was tried under the military court system which Obama begged for. He pled guilty and could have been executed already, if not for Obama and Holder.
>>"The Nuremberg Trials were widely mocked at the time around the world as "Show trials"."
The Nuremberg Trials were military trials, you ass. The sort of trials we are NOT giving KSM. Could you possibly be any more confused and obtuse?
Posted by: Steve at November 18, 2009 04:05 PM (rSUtb)
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>>"all of you here seem to have forgotten in your ideological zeal is that we are a nation of laws. And, not giving terrorists a trial - yes, even a show one - is worse."
They were given a trial, you witless buffoon. In spite of the best efforts of people like Holder to obstruct that.
Posted by: Steve at November 18, 2009 04:08 PM (rSUtb)
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Actually, you're both wrong. The Nuremberg IMT was conducted as a military tribunal, but certain assumptions were altered in order to give it a public element. The trials were not closed to the public as military courts usually are. Also, the judges from the USA and France were civilians, not military, as were the prosecutors. Only the USSR submitted both judge and prosecutor from the military.
garrettc, I guess by your standard, since Nazi's were declared not guilty that a show trial is fine in order to convict even if the evidence is not there? (Read the Nuremberg transcripts. It's fascinating insight into the time and place.)
Behind the scenes at Nuremberg, the fight between the principle nations was right along those lines: the USSR wanted guilty decisions across the board. No exceptions. The USA and France wanted to rule by the law. Which is what happened.
In the case of the upcoming trials for WTC terrorist Mohammed, the Obama Administration is simply following previous structure.
The reason that he has not already been hung by a military court is the reason we are now getting public in country trials. Why didn't they conduct a military trial years ago? Because the Pentagon refused to move forward.
Therein lay the crux of this case. And, simply keeping Mohammed locked up had huge issues too.
The Pentagon is not interested in being a prison full time. It's not.
The Bush WH dittered on this issue. They wanted to bend the law to their liking, but it would not.
So, nothing happened. It sat and festered.
Obama is cleaning up Bush's mistake.
Posted by: DJBuzz at November 18, 2009 04:13 PM (adGIV)
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You need to look at this from a different perspective. Just maybe Holder mede his decision based upon the results obtained in the few military commission trials already held. He may well get a better decision in the Feeral Courts.
I still think New Yorkers should be exised of the four to five years of part of New York being turned into a police state with closed roads and constant searches.
Posted by: davod at November 18, 2009 04:18 PM (GUZAT)
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Sorry, that should be "why haven't they executed KSM already" above. Writing on a new netbook. Tiny keyboard.
Posted by: DJBuzz at November 18, 2009 04:18 PM (adGIV)
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"The reason that he has not already been hung by a military court is the reason we are now getting public in country trials. Why didn't they conduct a military trial years ago? Because the Pentagon refused to move forward."
As I recall the delay was caused by continuous litigation through the US court system. Resulting in the SCOTUS reversing 200 years of Habeus precedent.
Posted by: davod at November 18, 2009 04:23 PM (GUZAT)
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>>"You need to look at this from a different perspective. Just maybe Holder mede his decision based upon the results obtained in the few military commission trials already held."
KSM wanted to plead guilty and be executed under the military commission trials. How much better a result do you think Holder can get? How much superior do you want the military trials to be?
Posted by: Steve at November 18, 2009 04:23 PM (rSUtb)
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>>"Actually, you're both wrong. The Nuremberg IMT was conducted as a military tribunal, but certain assumptions were altered in order to give it a public element."
So how was it not a military trial, doofus? Which rules of evidence appiled?
>>"The trials were not closed to the public as military courts usually are"
Yeah, now there's a meaningful distinction.
>>"The reason that he has not already been hung by a military court is the reason we are now getting public in country trials. Why didn't they conduct a military trial years ago? Because the Pentagon refused to move forward."
You ignorant jackass, the reason it took so long for the mlitary trials to occur is that leftist lawyers, including Holder, spent years fighting the military tribunals in court.
Take your ignorance and dishonesty back to the Democratic Underground.
Posted by: Steve at November 18, 2009 04:30 PM (rSUtb)
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"why haven't they executed KSM already"
Why don't you answer your own question? Why didn't they execute KSM already? He wanted to be executed. The Pentagon and Bush administration wanted to execue him.
Put your last remaining grey cell to work figuring out why he's still alive. Hint: the name "Holder" is part of the answer.
Posted by: Steve at November 18, 2009 04:33 PM (rSUtb)
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Holder kept Bush from summarily executing KSM? How exactly?
Posted by: Jim at November 18, 2009 04:36 PM (KD9e1)
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Jim, are you the same Jim that was yucking it up about the Hood murders?
Hey Cold Heart, you just accued everyone here of having Paranoia. You lied. I invite you to beg for forgiveness. I can't speak for everyone else here, but I may or may not grant you absolution. Maybe about a 20% chance. But you'll probably have to ask every other person individually. After that, you can start making claims.
See how nice I am?
Posted by: brando at November 18, 2009 05:50 PM (IPGju)
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This is a beautiful act of subversion executed by the Obama administration. Holder has set the stage for a condition where either we destroy the constitutionally-guided legal system or we let Khalid Sheikh Mohammed go free. Obama wins in either case.
Americans will be forced to set aside a system of due process, Miranda rights and legal objection to torture in order to successfully prosecute. Plus, Obama's declaration that he's already guilty in front of a global audience sort of eliminates any possibility of a fair trial. In one move, Obama's extended the State of Exception to the fullest extent of the Federal justice system.
And as a good Stalinist, he brags about how Americans will be proud, cheering the already determined conviction. Wins on multiple levels for Obama. The end of our justice system as it was known, and one step closer to his end game. Now if we can just torch the economy (perhaps health care and another stimulus will be enough to get the Chinese to cease lending) and a "national emergency" will be all but certain. Remember, Obama's in a hurry. He's not going to fail to pull this off in his first four years, given he won't have a supporting Congress in one year and won't have re-election as things are in three.
Posted by: HatlessHessian at November 18, 2009 06:50 PM (7r7wy)
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"The trials were not closed to the public as military courts usually are."
DJ - It's damn tough to have a show trial if it's closed to the public, isn't it?
Posted by: daleyrocks at November 18, 2009 07:37 PM (3O5/e)
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>It's damn tough to have a show trial if it's closed to the public, isn't it?
One mustn't forget that liberals are incapable of nuance and recognizing abstract use of language. Show trials signify the spectacle of the publicity of the event through institutional discourse and the arrival at a predetermined outcome. They are for show in that they use the construct of the court to demonstrate the extent of the institution's power.
If that's too hard for you, think of it this way: Obama's going to SHOW you he is in charge. No, he's not going to put on a show, sell tickets and speak on a stage. It's a show of power which is nothing more than a symbolic display of the extent of control intended to intimidate.
Posted by: HatlessHessian at November 18, 2009 09:19 PM (7r7wy)
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>>"Holder kept Bush from summarily executing KSM? How exactly?"
How "exactly" was Bush supposed to "summarily execute" anyone? It would be great if lefties ever learned the meanings of words.
As for Holder, get off your butt and do a little research into what he's been up to these past several years.
Posted by: Steve at November 18, 2009 09:26 PM (QrdfE)
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Here. Read up on the new Dem head at Justice.
Posted by: Steve at November 18, 2009 09:37 PM (QrdfE)
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Hi Steve,
Here's CYs wisdom on this subject:
There is no obligation to bring any of them to trial, and indefinite detention or even summary execution of terrorists is perfectly legal.
Now of course he's dead wrong, and of course he's no lefty. Feel free to call him out on the issue.
The point of all this is that KSM is alive because we're a nation of laws, and whether you like it or not we need to follow them. Holden isn't the problem here, it's folks like you and CY who want to flush our laws down the toilet because you're scared of this or that boogieman that are the problem.
Posted by: Jim at November 18, 2009 09:45 PM (KD9e1)
24
And the talking heads say that should KSM or his pals be acquitted, they will immediately be re-arrested and held forever. Obama, they say, would never allow terrorists to be released in the US. If so, how can anyone suggest that our civilian criminal justice system is, well, just? How can anyone suggest that it is superior to the military system?
May I suggest an alternative? Obama and Holder absolutely would allow KSM and others to be released in the US. If they are acquitted, and that is, at the very least, a reasonable possibility, this administration would claim it a vindication of the rule of law and claim their hands were bound.
Just watch.
Posted by: mikemcdaniel at November 18, 2009 09:47 PM (goVFs)
25
Jim, I'm exactly right when I state:
There is no obligation to bring any of them to trial, and indefinite detention or even summary execution of terrorists is perfectly legal.
We target terrorists for extermination every single day, be it by a rifleman's bullet or a circling drone's missile. They are not afforded due process or legal council, and are exterminated like vermin in dozens of countries around the world as the opportunity arises. This is perfectly legal and just.
We have zero legal obligation to take terrorists prisoner either under Hague or the various Geneva conventions. As unlawful enemy combatants they may be summarily executed. If they are POWs, they may be held until the end of the conflict, without a trial.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at November 18, 2009 10:13 PM (WjpSC)
26
Mike, KSM couldn't be released in the US, he has no papers.
Posted by: Jim at November 18, 2009 10:13 PM (KD9e1)
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>>"Here's CYs wisdom on this subject"
>>"Now of course he's dead wrong"
He's not "dead wrong", you illiterate dope. It is perfectly legal to execute illegal combatants on the battlefield. The President has no authority to order that KSM or anybody else in US custody be "summarily executed". His ordering it makes it NOT "summarily executed". As I said in the beginning, it would be great if you lefties could learn the meanings of words.
It's amusng to see you lefties, after crying that BusHitler was shredding the law for several years, now demanding to know why Bush did not behave like the lawless thug you didn't want him to be.
But all this is fruitless, You scum don't care about KSM any more than you cared about the Iraq War. Everything is political posturing for you.
Posted by: Steve at November 18, 2009 10:21 PM (vADQi)
28
>>"Holden isn't the problem here"
Do you ever bother to read anything, "Jim"?
Holden IS the problem. That's already been documented.
Posted by: Steve at November 18, 2009 10:24 PM (vADQi)
29
>>"KSM couldn't be released in the US, he has no papers"
Oh, shut UP, you ignorant clown.
Al Gore knows more about science than you know about this topic. And what Al knows of science would fit on the back of a matchbook cover.
Posted by: Steve at November 18, 2009 10:26 PM (vADQi)
30
Hey CY,
First tell Steve he doesn't seem to agree. Just once I'd like to see to righties who obviously disagree with each other address their differences instead of only responding to "stupid lefties". Are you guys afraid to be seen disagreeing or what?
Secondly try and find a law, convention, or treaty that says summary execution of terrorists is legal and please post the link here. I think you'll find the issue is murky at best. And of course once you take someone into custody putting one into their skull is off the table.
Posted by: Jim at November 18, 2009 10:27 PM (KD9e1)
31
Steve,
I don't know what your problem is, I hope you're only this irritable online.
What I said is perfectly correct, KSM has zero legal ability to walk around free in the US. He can be brought here to trial, he could not be released into the country. He has no passport, green card, visa etc... I have no idea why that fact upsets you so much.
Posted by: Jim at November 18, 2009 10:32 PM (KD9e1)
32
Steve,
Give me a link to any international law or treaty that says we can execute illegal enemy combatants on the battlefield in a way that extends to cover a guy like KSM who was sitting in Karachi when we found him. The entire world is not "the battlefield" in international law.
As for the rest of your insults and bluster, I wish you'd just skip it, it doesn't make you or your case look any more impressive here than in did on the playground. Sticks and stones.
Posted by: Jim at November 18, 2009 10:48 PM (KD9e1)
33
Whoops, KSM was captured in Rawalpindi, not Karachi. My bad.
Posted by: Jim at November 18, 2009 10:52 PM (KD9e1)
34
Jim - You are not helping yourself out here with your ignorance of the subject matter. Obama himself has said there are probably 75 terrorists at Gitmo who he does not plan on trying or releasing because they are too dangerous.
Why don't you actually read up on the relevant treaties yourself to understand what customs under the laws of land warfare say, Jim. You seem to be the only one unclear on the subject.
In not interested in the dictionary definition of indefinite or its common usage either.
Posted by: daleyrocks at November 18, 2009 11:51 PM (3O5/e)
35
Jim:
Why does Obama perpetrate and extend Georgio Agamben's State of Exception? This was the "ultimate evil" of Bush, to which many on the left have declared justifies international court hearings, trials and verdicts.
It is impossible for one to evaluate Obama's conduct without seeing it as not only an extension and advancement of the State of Exception, but an abject profanity on the cause of Homo Sacer. Obama is pissing on the Christ of the Left.
How do you reconcile the violence of your modern Lenin?
Posted by: HatlessHessian at November 19, 2009 01:30 AM (7r7wy)
36
Hi Daleyrocks,
I take it you can't link to the relevant info at this time, but thanks for adding zip to the mix.
Hatless,
It's a complete mess, I agree. Once you lock people up without evidence for 7 years or so it's hard to know what to do with them. Toss some abuse and torture into the mix and you have a cluster f. We're going to end up with a bunch of guys rotting in bases in Afghanistan for years to come.
And I also agree Obama has done a poor job of backing away from the lawless war powers/states secrets crap the Bush Admin used to justify all sorts of garbage. Once you give an office a power it's a lot harder to get them to give it up. I have no doubt you were very vocal in speaking up about the abuses to our civil liberties like warrant-less wiretaps and the rest the past 8 years. We certainly need to be consistent about our principles. If you take a look at sites like Emptywheel and Daily Kos you'll see plenty of lefties upset with Obama for exactly what you are talking about. You see it now too from RedState and the Freepers, but strangely they were cheerleading the same abuses when Bush was in office.
Posted by: Jim at November 19, 2009 01:45 AM (KD9e1)
37
Jim - Do some work, learn something. I first studied this 30 years ago and am not in doubt. You are. Grow up sport.
Posted by: daleyrocks at November 19, 2009 09:49 AM (3O5/e)
38
See the problem is daley, I'm also sure it's not clearly legal to shoot some one in Rawalpindi because you're fighting allies of theirs in Afghanistan, and they planned a horrible murder. I'm sure during your vast legal studies you ran across the idea of the burden of proof, where one making a claim that something is "perfectly legal" has to bring more to the table than "trust me".
Posted by: Jim at November 19, 2009 10:37 AM (KD9e1)
39
>>"I'm also sure it's not clearly legal to shoot some one in Rawalpindi because you're fighting allies"
You are "sure it's not clearly legal"?
The fact that your writing is gibberish reflects the confusion in your mind. Next you'll be telling us that you are "certain that certainty is a bad thng".
Your muddled thinking and writing aside, it is in fact "clearly legal" to execute combatants who ignore the laws of war. For instance, enemy fighters who wear no uniform fall into this category. So are those who wear their enemies uniforms. For example, we captured SS soldiers in WWII wearing American uniform and shot them on the spot.
As people here keep telling you, you really ought to find out something about this topic before coming here and basically telling us "I'm unclear about all of this".
When a lefty has the facts on his side, he uses them. When the facts are not on his side he goes into this "the facts are unclear" dance.
The Geneva Convention is actually very clear that unlawful combatants are not protected by it.
Posted by: Steve at November 19, 2009 01:08 PM (fqDKB)
40
>>"I'm also sure it's not clearly legal to shoot some one in Rawalpindi because you're fighting allies of theirs in Afghanistan"
We're not "shooting some one in Rawalpindi because {we're} fighting allies of theirs in Afghanistan".
As usual, you display your near total ignorance of what's going on. If we shoot someone in Rawalpindi (which, in fact, we don't) then it is because we are fighting somebody in Rawalpindi. Not because they are allied to anybody anywhere.
Posted by: Steve at November 19, 2009 01:13 PM (fqDKB)
41
>>"If you take a look at sites like Emptywheel and Daily Kos you'll see plenty of lefties upset with Obama for exactly what you are talking about. You see it now too from RedState and the Freepers"
More dishonesty. The people at Redstate and Free Republic are upset with Obama, but not for the same reasons as the Kossacks such as yourself. They're just pointing out that Obama lied, for the 17,723rd time. They're also pointing out that the left always used the war as a political ploy and never cared about it for itself. Considering your abject ignorance of the matters being discussed you plainly fall into this category yourself. You're here to defend Obama, not to hold him accountable for his lies.
Posted by: Steve at November 19, 2009 01:22 PM (fqDKB)
42
What would "you" do to finish the fight against the Taliban and al Qaeda, if you were the chief potentate in charge calling the shots?
Neither our government nor any other government in the world, with the one possible exception of Israel, has the political will to do what's necessary to "finish the fight".
There's only one way to finish it and no one is willing to go there. So, we'll either get out or be stuck there forever. It's a bad situation anyway you look at it.
Posted by: Dude at November 19, 2009 02:13 PM (byA+E)
43
Steve try and keep up. The discussion is whether or not it would have been "perfectly legal to summarily execute" KSM upon capture, which not co-incidentally is a claim made by CY in the post that is the basis for these comments.
Not a combatant on the battlefield lacking a uniform, or the SS in WII -- by the way, it's perfectly legal to wear the uniform of the other side as long as you're not fighting in said uniform, look it up.
As for the rest of your ranting...
Posted by: Jim at November 19, 2009 02:45 PM (3GzXA)
44
>"The discussion is whether or not it would have been "perfectly legal to summarily execute" KSM upon capture"
It is "perfectly legal", as has been pointed out to you repeatedly.
>>"Not a combatant on the battlefield lacking a uniform, or the SS in WII"
The people in question are combatants on the battlefield not wearing uniforms. Try to keep up.
As for the rest of your inane babble ...
Posted by: Steve at November 19, 2009 04:13 PM (fqDKB)
45
Steve,
What battlefield was KSM on? Earth?
Posted by: Jim at November 19, 2009 04:40 PM (3GzXA)
46
>>"What battlefield was KSM on?"
You don't think that KSM is a terrorist? That's as intelligent as anything else you've said so far. A terrorists battlefield is wherever he happens to be.
But it would be consistent with your other nonsense if you argued that KSM was wrongfully arrested and should be released. After all, he was picked up in Pakistan, in Rawalpindi, that place you say we have no business "shooting" people.
Let's drop the fiction that you support either military or civilian trials. You want KSM released with US apologies.
Posted by: Steve at November 19, 2009 04:50 PM (fqDKB)
47
Nice smears Steve. Of course KSM was a terrorist, so was McVeigh. It's not perfectly legal for us to shoot either on sight. They are criminals, not unlawful combatants on a battlefield.
Did you notice the Brits legally capping IRA members and supporters as they stood drinking their pints in Boston bars? Me neither. But of course that would have been perfectly legal, right???
Posted by: Jim at November 19, 2009 05:18 PM (3GzXA)
48
Jim - You have not provided any support for your assertion that is is not legal to hold enemy combatants without trial, legal or otherwise, until the cessation of hostilities. Following the link in the post CY provided, Obama clearly thinks it is legal. Apart from something you pulled out your rear end, where is your evidence otherwise?
BTW, what has emptywheel been proved right about on the subject of warrantless surveillance or prisoner abuse. Could you please lay out her track record for everyone? I believe it is pitiful.
Posted by: daleyrocks at November 19, 2009 06:31 PM (3O5/e)
49
Jim - Aren't those goalposts getting heavy?
You have still not provided any positive evidence for any of your assertions, only argument by flawed analogy.
FAIL!!!!!
Posted by: daleyrocks at November 19, 2009 06:35 PM (3O5/e)
50
Hi Daleyrocks,
Where did I ever say it was illegal to hold enemy combatants without trial until the cessation of hostilities? Oh that's right, I didn't.
If you know of a law that states KSM could have been legally shot upon his discovery in Pakistan, link to it. Your claim, your burden of proof. If you just want to ask me why I haven't proven a negative yet don't bother.
Posted by: Jim at November 19, 2009 06:50 PM (3GzXA)
51
>>"Of course KSM was a terrorist, so was McVeigh. It's not perfectly legal for us to shoot either on sight. They are criminals, not unlawful combatants on a battlefield."
That's your worthless and uninformed opinion, and one not shared even by the Obama administration.
But you continue to live in your own fantasy world where facts don't penetrate. I won't make any more fun of you. On this thread.
I'm sure you'll be popping off again around here.
Posted by: Steve at November 19, 2009 08:54 PM (UfZdy)
52
>>"Did you notice the Brits legally capping IRA members and supporters as they stood drinking their pints in Boston bars"
Yes, you witless and criminally ignorant clod.
(Sorry, I couldn't resist one more.)
Not Boston actually, but they did terminate a number of IRA members with extreme prejudice and without benefit of a trial. You could look it up, assuming you possess more than one feeble brain cell.
Posted by: Steve at November 19, 2009 09:00 PM (UfZdy)
53
Steve, read up on the Stevens Report. Rouge British intelligence agents carried out all kinds of killings, but the certainly were not legal.
http://www.geopoliticalmonitor.com/british-intelligence-and-the-ira/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stevens_Report
As for not agreeing with the Obama Administration, yeah no joke, I don't, lot's of people don't when it comes to the legality of things like drone attacks in Pakistan.
The debate over the legality of remote-controlled air strikes turns largely on the question of whether the American pursuit of terrorists represents an active armed conflict analogous to a conventional war between nations. As such, the debate over the drones is one example of the broader disagreement which has resulted from the application of international humanitarian law (IHL) to the “war on terror.” IHL, which regulates armed conflict between states, requires the existence of an active conflict, and only applies within the geographic limits of that conflict. Within these limits, IHL authorizes the killing of enemy combatants, including remotely, subject to limitations meant to assure that the use of force is necessary, minimally injurious to civilians, and proportional to expected military gains. Outside a zone of active conflict, however, IHL does not apply, and the U.S. ability to kill individuals without according them due process of law is restrained by a 1976 executive order against assassinations and, arguably, by international human rights law.
While some observers would call Afghanistan a zone of active conflict, far fewer would apply that description to Pakistan, and drones operated by the C.I.A. have been active in targeting militants there, including Taliban leader Baitullah Mehsud, who was killed in August. American drones have also targeted militants in Yemen. In extending IHL to cover these strikes, supporters of the program have argued for the application of IHL wherever terrorists are found, not merely within geographically bounded zones of conflict. This is a novel argument, and as such, the use of Predators to target individuals outside the “war zones” of Afghanistan and Iraq arguably represents a violation of international law. It also represents a sharp departure from pre-9/11 U.S. policy, when C.I.A. drones were limited to conducting surveillance and the U.S. Government criticized Israel for conducting targeted killings of Palestinian militants.
http://www.harvardilj.org/digest/archives/1033
You're long on insults and bluster, but you don't bring much in the way of documentation to support your missives. Care to step up to the plate?
Posted by: Jim at November 19, 2009 09:48 PM (KD9e1)
54
Gotta proof before hitting post, that should of course read "Rogue British..." not rouge British, I'm pretty sure they did not color their cheeks.
Posted by: Jim at November 19, 2009 09:51 PM (KD9e1)
55
"Where did I ever say it was illegal to hold enemy combatants without trial until the cessation of hostilities? Oh that's right, I didn't."
Jim - I would say right here:
"Here's CYs wisdom on this subject:
There is no obligation to bring any of them to trial, and indefinite detention or even summary execution of terrorists is perfectly legal.
Now of course he's dead wrong, and of course he's no lefty. Feel free to call him out on the issue."
Is your excuse that because you are unable to express yourself clearly you did not actually say or mean what you actually said?
Posted by: daleyrocks at November 19, 2009 10:22 PM (3O5/e)
56
No excuse necessary DR, I've been talking about the summary execution part of that sentence in all but two posts I've made in this tread, and those two were direct answers to other questions that were asked of me. Context is key. I could have put little ellipsis in front of the beginning of that quote, but I was under the assumption that any adult reading my posts from start to finish would follow along with the context of KSM and summary execution.
Have you found the time to link to the laws you read about 30 years ago that would have made the execution of KSM in Pakistan legal? Take your time, you still have a chance to bring something to this discussion.
Posted by: Jim at November 19, 2009 10:37 PM (KD9e1)
57
Jim - So you will now be revising your statement to make it clear that CY is not dead wrong to provide the appropriatwe context?
Posted by: daleyrocks at November 20, 2009 09:19 AM (3O5/e)
58
...try and find a law, convention, or treaty that says summary execution of terrorists is legal
It's in the Geneva Conventions; read any version up to and including 1949.
You have to look in two places, namely the definition of "combatant," and the treatment of spies. By definition, an individual engaged in combat but not in uniform is a spy. Spies can be executed summarily.
It is also in the international law articulated by the UN War Crimes Commission, which allowed the formation of military tribunals in 1947 for “devastation, destruction or damage of public or private property not justified by military necessity… murder, extermination, enslavement, deportation or other inhumane acts committed against any civilian population….” War against civilians is a violation of the rules of war. Terrorism by definition is war against civilians.
The situation is a little murky only because al Qaeda is an army without a country, which is a bit of a new animal. In my humble opinion, the most applicable precedent for dealing with al Qaeda and similar organizations is the law pertaining to piracy, because pirates, like al Qaeda, are quasi-military groups engaged in assaults on civilians, the only difference being that the object is not enrichment but ideology -- and historically, even that distinction gets blurry quickly, as is occurring in Afghanistan. Pirates are regarded in international law as “hostis humani generis” (enemies of humanity) and are subject to summary execution.
Pick your precedent, they all point the same way. Terrorists may be killed without trial. Anything we do after we let them live -- anything -- is more merciful than what is demanded by international law, for which reason every word of the left's caterwauling about President Bush's violations of international law are pure, unadulterated bunk.
You might like to read this post, which contains links for further reading.
Posted by: plumb bob at November 20, 2009 10:06 AM (A/GHz)
59
No, it's not just a show trial, CY. Please consider the article I wrote yesterday, in which I defend the notion that the Holder Justice Dept intends to use the trial to air Bush administration interrogation policies. They're saying "the outcome is settled" as political cover, and as Lindsey Graham demonstrated yesterday, it doesn't stand even cursory review.
The first thing KSM's attorneys will do will be to challenge his confession on the basis that it is coerced, which will allow them to subpoena Bush administration documents related to interrogation. Holder knows this. So does Obama. That's the point of the trial.
Posted by: plumb bob at November 20, 2009 10:14 AM (A/GHz)
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Broken Minds
This observation from Tom Maguire has haunted me since last night.
As he told us last Friday, Eric Holder wants to try Khalid Sheik Mohammed in civilian courts because he (mostly) attacked civilians, while the attackers of the USS Cole will be sent to a military tribunal. The Dallas Morning News explained:
There is no contradiction here: military courts for attacks on the military, civilian courts for attacks on civilians.
OMG. And if the next batch of terrorists are clever enough to attack an elementary school will they be tried in juvenile court?
How bizarre is Holder's logic? First, why give more rights and more protections to a terrorists who targets civilians? Secondly, the court ought to be determined by the nature of the defendant, not the nature of the victims - if KSM is an enemy combatant he deserves a military tribunal regardless of who he was crafty enough to target.
I've long disagreed with the underlying ideology of the Obama Administration, which is based upon the philosophies of those men who replaced his father in his life. Radical left-wing ideologies like those the President learned from his mentors—Frank Marshall Davis (communist), Bill Ayers (Marxist), Jeremiah Wright (racist black liberation theology, Marxism), etc—have
never led to anything other than misery for the wretches that survive it.
But Obama and his subordinates compound the errors of these diseased ideologies by adopting another failed ideology, one that acts as if the open warfare of Islamic fascism is a civilian law enforcement problem. That flawed thinking already led to horrors of 9/11. Why are our President and Attorney General so dimwitted that they desire to repeat those mistakes and put the lives of Americans at greater risk?
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
10:35 AM
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1
It is obvious that Holder has not bounced this idea of anyone with any intelligence.This is up there with the decision to NOT prosecute the black panthers on the voting station steps in Pa. If this insanity actually leads to a trial in NYC and a bomb goes off there, it will be the end of the era of Hope and Change. Holder is way over his head in this and there in no good that can come from it. Like my Dad used to tell me when I was a teenage hoodlum with bad ideas, "What is the best and worst thing that this will produce".
Posted by: inspectorudy at November 18, 2009 11:04 AM (Vo1wX)
2
But at the same time, KSM isn't a soldier, he's a murderer. His attack wasn't an act of war it was a cowardly crime. To me that means he should be treated as a criminal, and the Brits and Spanish had the same reaction after the London and Madrid bombings. They tried those guys in the cities that had been bombed, and they tried them in civilian courts, and they got convictions for murder, not war crimes or some crap like that.
If we turn terrorists like KSM into soldiers, or enemy combatants, or any legal fudge other than criminal then any attack by those guys that targets our military -- like the Pentagon -- would be a simple act of war in an ongoing war, and the civilian deaths would be collateral damage, which is pure BS. These guys aren't fighting a war, they're terrorists plain and simple.
Posted by: Jim at November 18, 2009 02:33 PM (KD9e1)
3
I wonder if Jim would feel the same way if it was his relatives that died in those buildings on 9/11.
Posted by: Michael Smith at November 18, 2009 03:09 PM (T4ASz)
4
WTF is that supposed to mean Michael, did you even read what I wrote?
KSM isn't a soldier, he's a criminal. His actions weren't attacks upon an enemy nation during a time of war, they were murders.
When we bomb cities during a war it's an act of war, not an act of murder. Do you want KSM to be able to claim he was doing the same thing? Of course not.
Posted by: Jim at November 18, 2009 03:56 PM (KD9e1)
5
Osama Bin Laden and Al-Qaeda declared war against the US in 1996. Perhaps you missed it.
http://www.americanheritage.com/articles/web/20060823-osama-bin-laden-september-11-uss-cole-al-qaeda-terrorism_print.shtml
KSM was working for Al Qaeda on 9/11, who had previously declared war on the US AND attacked several of its possessions. 9/11 was yet another attack perpetrated in prosecution of that war. That fact alone is enough to remove this matter from the civilian court system.
KSM IS a conspiratorialist to murder, but he did it in the context of a larger war effort. This is a military matter, and should be prosecuted as such. Followed by a speedy hanging (as opposed to years of appeals).
Posted by: Michael Smith at November 18, 2009 09:40 PM (TGvBq)
6
Sorry Mike, I disagree. I don't want to dignify what KSM did by making the hijackings part of some larger war. He's a criminal, he was never a soldier.
Posted by: Jim at November 18, 2009 10:57 PM (KD9e1)
7
And if the next batch of terrorists are clever enough to attack a pig farm ?
Will they be tried by a court of pigs ?
Posted by: Neo at November 19, 2009 08:43 AM (tE8FB)
8
So does this mean that the Holocaust was a military operation ? 6 million military deaths ? Nuremberg was a military tribunal.
Would a nuclear attack be a military or civilian operation ? Do they count the number of eviscerated and wounded military vs civilians ?
Posted by: Neo at November 19, 2009 08:51 AM (tE8FB)
9
You are free to disagree, but you are being willfully blind of the facts in this matter.
So by your definition, since Al Qaeda is not a formalized fighting force (aka Army), then ALL trials of Al Qaeda detainees should be held in civilian court.
Is that what you are really espousing?
Posted by: Michael Smith at November 19, 2009 09:04 AM (T4ASz)
10
Neo, Nuremberg is tricky for a number of reasons, the court was a mix of civilian and military, the defendants were a mix of civilian and military persons, and they were accused of a whole array of different crimes from waging illegal aggressive war to hate speech. Throw in a multinational set of prosecutors and judges and there's pretty much something for everyone there. This is just us.
Mike, I'm talking about KSM a guy who was captured far from the battlefield, not every potential defendant, different circumstances warrant different approaches.
Here's what I worry about, you can tell me if it's a valid concern.
The first shot we fired in the Iraq War was a cruise missile or missiles fired to try and kill Saddam. We had declared war, he was the head of state and the commander of the Iraqi military making him a valid target.
If some group like Al Qaeda "declares war" on us, would it then be legal in your eyes for them to attempt to blow up the President? I don't. I don't want to invest individual terrorists with the privileges of nations.
Posted by: Jim at November 19, 2009 09:30 AM (KD9e1)
11
I think the pushback on Jim is a bit gratuitous. But there is a third designation of less than ancient vintage but still with a long track record. In the Geneva Conventions this demo of asshole is called an "unlawful combatant" and as I understand it this concept loomed large in the legal underpinnings (yes, there were such) of the Bushies detention policies. It seems unclear if it is still the case and it is clearly NOT the case if other international accords are considered but in their original form the Geneva Conventions took a rather stern line on unlawful combatants; summary battlefield execution. If that is allowed then any lesser harshness in their detention is discretionary. The real indictment of the Obama KWM policy is that he has already confessed in military tribunals and no, this was not swirlied out of him. He is, as one would expect, quite a proud jihadi. As far as "justice" goes, before the recent decisions of OHolder, execution was a matter of procedure. These procedures were not yet pursued for the obvious intelligence value of KSM and who knows what other political factors. This amounts not to a delivery of justice unless a reprieve of the condemned man and a new trial is warrented. It is a perversion not of justice merely but of the justice system because rather than introducing decent jurisprudence into the GWOT it is importing Jihad into our courtrooms. So, what will be the results? I predict that KSM will walk. Holder declares that he has sufficient evidence for a CAPITAL conviction that is of sufficient provenance to be admitted. Well, maybe he thinks he does but it is the DUTY of the other side to argue otherwise. This "other" evidence must be absolutely underived from any non-Mirandized and evidence-chained information from ANY source. Needless to say this is a high bar and Holder's declared confidence is just braggadoccio. But will any of that ever become an issue? How will they seat a jury? That is a year's process at least, and then only if the defense team is not intentionally delaying. Other tactical possibilities abound that make Mr. Holder's "evidence" moot. Only two outcomes are possible. One, KSM will walk or two, he will be returned to his former state of detention. And it will not really take some Leftwing nutcase judge or plant in the jury, merely a rigorous application of the Federal Rules of Criminal Procedure and if that doesn't happen at trial, it will happen at appeal, which is of course automatic and gub financed in capital cases. No, KSM is NOT in for speedy trial and execution. Nope. Holder promises the impossible, declaring it inevitable and in so doing reveals that he knows nothing in his supposed area of expertise OR he was instructed to make this decision. In that case he is indeed The Holder. He is holding the bag and it is ticking.
Posted by: megapotamus at November 19, 2009 09:41 AM (Z1yVV)
12
Jim believes that the Nanking Massacre wasn't murder because it was part of War.
Jim, all good people in the world disagree with you, as does the US Military.
UCMJ - Article 118 - Murder
Posted by: brando at November 19, 2009 02:47 PM (IPGju)
13
You have it completely backwards as usual Brando.
A better analogy for what I actually wrote above would be; I don't think a Chinese man who shot a Japanese woman in Tokyo a month after Nanking should be treated as though he was a soldier at war on the battlefield.
You can murder while in uniform, no one disputes that. I do not believe a person can declare war on a nation and then 5 years later kill civilians and call that an act of war. KSM was not a soldier in a war, he was a simple criminal and should be tried as such.
Posted by: Jim at November 19, 2009 03:36 PM (3GzXA)
14
Jim -
Your argument is so specious that I don't know where to start.
The US did not specifically target Saddam at the beginning of hostilities. They concentrated on command, control and communication facilities. That's the first move any aggressor makes in a war. The US may have a lobbed a missle or two after Saddam, and if they got him in the process, so much the better. But as I recall, lots of munitions fell that night, and not all of them were aimed at Saddam.
And do you really believe that Al Qaeda would hesitate, even for a second, to eliminate Bush if they had the chance? You do understand what a PR coup that would be for Al Qaeda, right?
Further, except for the heroic actions of some on flight 83, Al Qaeda WOULD have destroyed the Capital. But, if I understand your argument correctly, had the terrorists succeeded, and politicians (as opposed to civilians) died, then we could try KSM in a military court?
You may not want to "invest individual terrorists with privileges of nations", but Al Qaeda doesn't really care what you think. They have already taken those "privileges", whether granted or not.
Posted by: Michael Smith at November 19, 2009 05:47 PM (T4ASz)
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BAGHDAD, Iraq — The United States launched its opening attack against Iraq Thursday morning, aiming at "targets of military opportunity" in a pre-dawn "decapitation" strike after President Bush's deadline for Saddam Hussein to leave the country passed unheeded.
The "decapitation" attack targeted Saddam personally, U.S. officials told Fox News, and the barrage of cruise missiles and bombs was a prelude to a major invasion of Iraq.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,81607,00.html
Of course Al Qaeda would target our President, my question to you is, if we and Al Qaeda are at war, and you can legally target a leader in a "decapitation" strike while at war, would you call an attack by Al Qaeda on our President a valid act of war or a crime. I would call it a crime because I don't treat Al Qaeda as an entity that can wage war. If you say they can and have, then why would their decapitation strike be illegal and ours legal?
Posted by: Jim at November 19, 2009 06:24 PM (3GzXA)
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Are you being obtuse on purpose? Are you seriously suggesting that Al Qaeda has not been waging war? Or perhaps that KSM should go free because he acted while in a war?
What you clearly do not understand is that this is not a matter of legal and illegal. It is a matter of national sovereignty. Al Qaeda declared war on the US and acted on that declaration. KSM, a member of Al Qaeda, by his own admission, was the orchestrator (i.e. General) of that attack. He was caught (and it does matter where he was apprehended, as you have argued elsewhere). To the extent that he should be given a trial at all, it should be a military trial. This is not a civilian matter, and no unrepentant foreigner who acted in a war effort against this country should be granted the same rights of defense that I as a citizen enjoy.
You're getting hard to take seriously.
Posted by: Michael Smith at November 19, 2009 10:01 PM (TGvBq)
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Michael it's not clear to me that you are reading what I'm writing. Did I ever suggest KSM should go free? No, I'm saying the exact opposite.
Yes Al Qaeda has been attacking us for over a decade, but no, I don't think a handful of individual terrorists can declare war upon a nation in any meaningful way. They're not a country, they're not soldiers, they're common criminals. I don't know how I could be any more clear about that.
I'm asking you a simple question, and I think you've been ducking answering that simple question because you don't like the answer.
You keep saying Al Qaeda can declare war upon a nation in the same way the USA can, fine. Do they then have the same right we do to declare war, and then legally launch decapitation attacks against our leaders? It's a simple yes or no question. Of course I'd also appreciate your reasoning.
Did it start getting harder to take me seriously when I showed you that you were wrong about the US directly targeting Saddam at the start of the Iraq War?

Posted by: Jim at November 19, 2009 10:29 PM (KD9e1)
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Jim -
the economic destruction of 9-11 exceeded that of the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor.
How exactly do you justify saying ... but no, I don't think a handful of individual terrorists can declare war upon a nation in any meaningful way.?
Posted by: Adriane at November 20, 2009 02:50 AM (0U2C0)
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November 17, 2009
CNN's "Militias are Crazy!" Day 2
After
yesterday's report attempting to portray a militia group as borderline terrorists, CNN's Jim Acosta used today's report to try to portray the founder of the group as also being an
unfit parent.
Lee Miracle may run training exercises for the Southeast Michigan Volunteer Militia once a month in a rural area outside of Flint, but he's just as busy at home. He and his wife Katrina have eight kids, and there are more than 20 guns in the house. This explains why Lee refers to the family as "Lee and Kate plus eight plus a gun rack."
Make that several gun racks. The Miracle children are very much growing up in the militia. They take part in militia training exercises, including the weapons training.
We were there when 13-year-old Megan fired off her shotgun, but even the couple's six-year-old has had her share of target practice.
CNN's dimwitted followers obediently go where they are led, all but wetting themselves in the comments. One reader professes shock and outrage that a family has both children and guns in the same house, declaring that "somebody should do something" about that. The next poster down rhetorically asks if there is any difference between the militias and the Ku Klux Klan. It is tough to discern whether they feel having guns or belonging to the Klan would be more distasteful.
The hit job CNN did on the Miracle family was as easy as it is predictable.
They crafted both the text of the blog entry and tone of the video to inspire shock that young women and girls in the family are being taught to shoot firearms.
Being CNN, they never mention the fact that these young ladies are adequately supervised, use both the proper eye and ear protection, and in the one instance they broadcast, use a single-shot, preferred by many for training young and new shooters. In other words, the Miracle children exhibit the tells of youth taught how to act responsibly around firearms. That the women are as empowered to use firearms for their defense as are the males somehow doesn't excite the pseudo-feminist leanings of the CNN staff.
Those things don't fit CNN's narrative, you see.
It's much better to play up a caricature and beat down a strawman. Why waste time trying to discover why increasing number of people have determined that our federal government too incompetent, corrupt, and power-mad to trust?
After all, it's only news.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
03:42 PM
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1
Although my parents were not in the milita, I grew up in a home that had a loaded, unlocked gun in every room, including the bathroom, kitchen, basement.
There were never any accidents. I never "played" with them. My parents taught me from a very YOUNG age to respect them, what they could do if used improperly, and how to use them, reload them, clean them, etc.
No one needs to "do anything" about it. Its the parents responsibilty to teach their children about weapons if they choose to have them in their home.
Posted by: Steele at November 17, 2009 05:10 PM (BQApT)
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I detect the pimp hand of Morris Dees at play here. He must have a big Visa bill this month or something.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at November 17, 2009 06:02 PM (7dU/r)
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Of course there are at least 20 guns in the house. If one kid gets to have 2 guns, all the others will want 2 as well. You know how kids are.
Posted by: Tim at November 17, 2009 09:30 PM (nc6/K)
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Remember, kids: The miltias are terrorists, even though they never killed anyone. Hasan is not a terrorist even though he did kill people. There will be a quiz on this tomorrow.
Posted by: Your MSM at November 17, 2009 09:44 PM (EjSOm)
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HORRORS! That is clearly what these nice reporters think themselves, and what they want the viewer to think.
News Flash: MILLIONS of Americans in their 50s and older grew up with firearms as a NORMAL part of their lives. Virtually all summer camps, Junior High, and High Schools had riflery as an activity, and gun clubs in the schools. I first fired a gun -- under adult supervision -- at age six as did many children. Consequently, guns held no forbidden fascination for us, but we DID respect them for what they were: dangerous tools that we were taught to use safely, like powr tools.
There were no school shootings, and much lower crime. I am SO sick of the horror-stricken attitude toward guns, and law abiding people who own them, and use them. We are not the problem, people, and NEITHER are our guns. Please recognize your violent fantasies as your OWN, and not the reality of gun owners.
Please give this some considertion.
Posted by: Bill Smith at November 17, 2009 11:04 PM (WdbNh)
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Just watched the vid. You know, it was not nearly as bad as I was expecting it to be. Huh.
Posted by: Brad at November 18, 2009 04:22 AM (eEdXg)
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It's almost like the "elite" come from a different country, isn't it? Few hunt; many believe that guns are evil (vice the people who use guns for evil things); they do not believe in taking responsibility of one's action and explain away the most horrific and violent actions to "a bad environment" or "a shortage of recreational facilities".
How would you change this state of affairs?
Posted by: favill at November 18, 2009 07:39 AM (fzLjW)
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A copper lining there. If the Left is a political movement, and it is, and has coercive ambitions, which it does, a pervasive disdain and fear of firearms as well as the military and militaria begs the question, just what body of men or other mechanism will they ever use to enforce their will? If the worst of our fears and the greatest of their plots are ever to be made real, who will man these posts? No one, friends. No one at all. The teenage Stalinists have no teeth and only the most drastic alteration in their character can change that.
Posted by: megapotamus at November 18, 2009 08:42 AM (e6TEq)
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And in other timely news: last night's episode of NCIS:LA featured a storyline about... a militia! An eeeevil militia who chases poor Mexicans back over the border only to let them die in the desert from thirst! Oh those eeevil militia-men!
They portray the militia so stereotypically it was hilarious!
The regular NICS would never have done an episode like this. Gibbs would have kicked their asses if they tried.
Posted by: Stoutcat at November 18, 2009 09:39 AM (kKdtK)
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I grew up in a household in which my Dad's hunting rifle, a .22 and a shotgun were stored in a broom closet and the ammo was on the shelf above them. Horrors! I started shooting when I was 8 years old when my grandfather wanted to get me and my cousins out of his hair for awhile and sent us off with his .22 and a couple of boxes of shells to shoot ground squirrels. I'm sure the MSM would characterize my family as a bunch of hicks but the fact is that between me and my 3 siblings we have 7 college degrees. We didn't "play" with guns because we grew up understanding what they were for and how they worked. If people would only bother to teach their kids safety around guns they wouldn't need gun cabinets and locks
Posted by: Penny at November 18, 2009 02:24 PM (5sGLG)
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The now, thankfully, lame duck Governor, John Corzine signed into law the new measure limiting New Jersey resident to the purchase of just one handgun per month.
...
But in the fevered liberal frenzied rush to limit handgun purchases, the Legislature also banned legitimate gun dealers from buying more than one handgun a month too.
Posted by: Neo at November 19, 2009 09:06 AM (tE8FB)
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I am your stereotypical middle-aged female. I am employed in the legal field. As with everyone who gives a damn about our beloved nation, I wondered what on earth could I do to stop the insanity of a runaway government, as well to protect myself and my community in the event of a terrorist attack. I am now a proud member of a militia. Now, before I threw in 100%, I checked the members out at a training exercise. Golly gee, CNN would be disappointed. The members are all employed, hard workers, property owners, and patriots who love our country. Obviously they do not fit in with the demographics of CNN's viewership. Sadly, when I've mentioned I'm in a militia, the frightened look I receive in return tells me there are more willing to live on their knees than those willing to fight for the birthright our forefathers bequeathed us.
Posted by: SierraCheryl at November 19, 2009 01:32 PM (Cnzji)
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"The next poster down rhetorically asks if there is any difference between the militias and the Ku Klux Klan."
Well, yeah, there is.
The Klan members are Democrats.
Posted by: Loki at November 20, 2009 09:28 AM (RbtXl)
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Leftist Terrorist Lawyer Ordered to Jail
If there is any justice, this will work out to be a life sentence.
A federal appeals court has ordered leftist Manhattan civil rights lawyer Lynne Stewart to surrender and begin serving her sentence immediately on her 2005 conviction for shuttling messages from imprisoned terrorist Sheik Omar Abdel-Rahman.
Stewart, 70, has been free on bail pending appeal since her 2005 conviction for using her status as Abdel-Rahman's lawyer to violate federal rules barring him from communicating from his high-security imprisonment, and her 2006 sentence to 28 months in jail by U.S. District Judge John Koeltl.
A three-judge panel of the Second U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals, in Tuesday morning's ruling, not only affirmed Stewart's conviction and ordered her to prison immediately, but remanded the case to Koeltl to consider whether she should get a harsher sentence.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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A harsher sentence???
How about TREASON? No, I guess she didn't "take up arms" against the country. SEDITION??? Youuuu Betcha'!!
Posted by: Dell at November 17, 2009 01:34 PM (wn1Sh)
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The dissenting judge called her sentence a travesty and thought it should be much longer. The Appeals Court also had issues with the trial judge's acceptance of all of Stewart's "good" deeds when deciding on her sentence, but omitted to consider that Stewart had perjured herself on the stand during the trial.
Posted by: Penfold at November 17, 2009 05:38 PM (lF2Kk)
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Once you've crossed the Rubicon and thrown in with the terrorists, all your "good deeds" are pretty much null and void in my mind.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at November 17, 2009 06:05 PM (7dU/r)
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As Mr. Burns says, "Exxxcelllent!"
Posted by: Federale at November 17, 2009 06:28 PM (QZ/te)
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So who's going to defend Khalid Sheik Mohammed now?
Posted by: Tim at November 17, 2009 09:46 PM (nc6/K)
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I recall the events and the charges. I am astonished that she is actually going to serve serious time, I thought certainly she would be disbarred, draw some penalty and basically go on with her life. Well, this was a relic of the Bush years and it looks like this was a federal prosecution. Knowing the policies on even the most notorious terrorists, can anyone believe that a repeat of these acts will be as thoroughly prosecuted? Or prosecuted at all? The Obies seem to seriously believe their own press, that kid-glove treatment and a ban on swirlees will deflate the jihadi juggernaut but already I see a fading of Lefty rhetorical support for that justification. If you listen and read you will notice that now they laud HoldBama as a more stern Decider on the fate of the terrs. They loudly demand the death penalty... oddly enough, and from the Juan Williamses to the Lone Whackoes, they all declare that the convictions AND executions are "slam dunk" certain. Didn't Marcia Clark have a slam-dunk case? Who dat?
Posted by: megapotamus at November 18, 2009 08:59 AM (e6TEq)
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Another Left-Wing Mob Attacks
While the Obama Administration and the media continue to try to demonize God-fearing, Constitution-respecting Americans as potential domestic terrorists, groups of thugs closely tied to the left wing of the Democratic Party continue to violently attack those who disagree with their militant drive towards socialism.
Here is the latest attack, in Ft. Lauderdale, FL.
So far thugs from ANSWER, MoveOn.org, and SEIU have threatened or intimidated thousands of attendees to town hall meetings and protests, and have physically assaulted and maimed unarmed citizens with little or no provocation.
The Obama Justice Department headed by Eric Holder?
Dead silent.
h/t
Michelle Malkin
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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1
Hope and change. Pathetic.
Posted by: John Ruberry at November 17, 2009 11:28 AM (6W40O)
2
Yeah, a bunch of hotheads scuffle at a protest. Better call in the National Guard. Clearly a massive underground effort is underway to organize a revolution.
Posted by: beet at November 17, 2009 12:05 PM (vzU4z)
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America had better wake up - and FAST. It's time to be involved BIG TIME in everything this administration is up to. The most obvious reason is that these guys are acting as if they have nothing to lose in the next election, which will be true if Obama has his way with deciding who the next voters will be, and believe me, they ain't us!
Posted by: Chicky at November 17, 2009 01:52 PM (CDrw/)
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This is a skirmish. The question is whether the 2010 and 2012 Elections will be open and honest. It seems that the far left, MoveOn, SEIU, ACORN, etc. will be the people involved in counting the votes. You've already seen how a leftist State Secretary of State and leftist Judges in Minnesota can decide which votes count in order to make the election come out in the Left's favor.
This is just the first in MoveOn's major attempt to secure all the State's Secretaries of State for the Left and insure voter fraud. As Stalin famously said "it doesn't matter who votes, it matters who counts the votes". And that is exactly the Obama/Left Playbook!
Posted by: Jim at November 17, 2009 02:37 PM (WacVk)
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Seriously, be careful folks. Or you'll be murdered by a Liberal.
Posted by: brando at November 17, 2009 06:00 PM (IPGju)
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Yeah, a bunch of hotheads scuffle at a protest. Better call in the National Guard.
I'll tuck this nugget away for future reference. "Scuffles" are a sword that cuts both ways.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at November 17, 2009 06:07 PM (7dU/r)
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OMG, those leftards from ANSWER look like a progressive militia. Is the SPLC tracking them?
Posted by: daleyrocks at November 17, 2009 06:48 PM (3O5/e)
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This is the fear that obama wants the miltant lefists to have, and act out on. Demogogue the Right, keep the Left scared and this is what happens. Work them into a frenzy. Holder has proven that he won't do his job, as in the Phila, "New BPP" case. This emboldens lefist violence. BTW, did you ever notice that it is always a mob, against a few, usually elderly or handicapped people? Can't even have a fair fist fight with this trash.
Posted by: hutch1200 at November 18, 2009 08:34 AM (ABUF9)
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At least they didn't eat his fingers.
Posted by: brando at November 18, 2009 12:27 PM (IPGju)
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You betcha, PA, file that away. Maybe someday, in some post-revolution America, four guys falling on top of each other at a two-bit protest in Florida will take its rightful place alongside the Beer Hall Putsch in the history books.
Or maybe it will be forgotten, like the countless scuffles that preceded it at countless protests and marches. My money's on forgotten.
Posted by: beetroot at November 18, 2009 04:39 PM (vzU4z)
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Well Beet, why would you demand to activate a National Guard unit, for an assault, when the police could just arrest the criminal, and watch the groups they're in?
What an inconsistant thing to say. I'll be tucking that away too.
Posted by: brando at November 18, 2009 05:23 PM (IPGju)
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Pardon me, Brando, I should've left the "sarcasm" light on. I don't see anything in this video that local law enforcement couldn't handle. CY's suggestion that this is representative of a national, organized lefty effort to stifle political speech is beyond ridiculous. There isn't a shred of evidence to support such a contention. A couple of hotheads and morons - like the a**holes from the "new black panther party" in philly - do not a national movement make.
Of course, I don't personally feel the cold, clammy shadow of impending socialist revolution creeping up the back of my neck, so maybe I'm not qualified to judge.
Posted by: beet at November 18, 2009 05:41 PM (vzU4z)
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You realize that the word Sarcasm in quotes is also sarcasm.
I get it. You were using "sarcasm".
There was nothing for you to be sarcastic against, because you were the only one saying that we should activate the National Guard.
Posted by: brando at November 18, 2009 11:45 PM (LjEkE)
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That's right, "Brando." You've got "it." Keep "at" it!
Meanwhile, if you guys want to holler at SEIU, go after them for this. Paging Eric Holder! Republic at risk!
http://jonathanturley.org/2009/11/19/scout-or-scab-union-threatens-legal-action-over-scout-who-cleared-trash/
Posted by: beet at November 19, 2009 10:52 AM (vzU4z)
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So now you're admiting that I'm right, but that I'm actually someone else?
Right about the first part, but wrong about the second.
The National Guard stuff is a disageement, but your oath that I'm sockpuppeting is just incorrect.
Your credibility is going way down. Are you a Liberal or something?
Posted by: brando at November 19, 2009 11:33 AM (IPGju)
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I like you, Brando! You're a pip. When the liberal murders start, I hope they spare you.
Posted by: beet at November 19, 2009 11:53 AM (vzU4z)
Posted by: brando at November 20, 2009 09:18 AM (IPGju)
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November 16, 2009
Yes Virginia, There are Death Panels
Remember how Democrats and the media kept telling you that the Obamacare health care rationing scheme passed by Nancy Pelosi's House didn't have death panels that would decide who lives and who dies?
They lied.
As usual, the most dangerous parts of ObamaCare aren't receiving the scrutiny they deserve—and one of the least examined is a new commission to tell Congress how to control health spending. Democrats are quietly attempting to impose a "global budget" on Medicare, with radical implications for U.S. medicine.
Like most of Europe, the various health bills stipulate that Congress will arbitrarily decide how much to spend on health care for seniors every year—and then invest an unelected board with extraordinary powers to dictate what is covered and how it will be paid for. White House budget director Peter Orszag calls this Medicare commission "critical to our fiscal future" and "one of the most potent reforms."
On that last score, he's right. Prominent health economist Alain Enthoven has likened a global budget to "bombing from 35,000 feet, where you don't see the faces of the people you kill."
Liberals are trying to hide behind a fig leaf by attempting to say there are no death panels because no individual cases are brought up, reviewed, and dismissed. Instead, they envision an emotionally distant genocide, where unelected appointees will summarily dictate how much money is spent to combat a specific illness or condition. Once that money is spent, Americans who have those conditions will not get their health care ration. They will suffer, and they will die, while racking up private debit attempting to save their own lives. It will be worse than what we have now, while forcing the nation every closer to bankruptcy.
Lovely.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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1
The problem is that we spend a ton of money on old folks. Our system is out of control in this respect. All parties are to blame. Doctors are not getting paid enough for the time they spend with the complicated problems of the elderly. So they turn to procedures for the greater amount of money that is paid. For instance, a cath gets you $500 and takes about 30 minutes. Talking to a patient and his family takes about 30 to 60 minutes and you get $30, if you are lucky. The patient might not need the cath for the given problems, but you do feel the tug of going to a procedure if at all indicated.
Then we have our friends the attorneys. They want every thing done and multiple times. So this gets the bill up there.
Hospitals will show favoritism to those docs that do more procedures, as long as they are efficient and do not spend too much money.
Families are demanding that mama and daddy stay alive forever. I have seen a 95 year old whose day consist of lying in his bed in the nursing home and has no idea of place, time, person or anything else. Also, blind and can not hear well. The family will insist that a $30,000+ pacemaker be placed instead of leaving the situation to God and nature. The pacemaker does nothing for the man's quality of life.
The government also makes it very difficult to allow people to die. And insist that all measures be preformed.
So we do have a problem in taking care of the elderly. I will try everything in my power to stay away from hospitals and doctors in my more advanced years. But I know that if my daughter gets a hold on me, she would makes sure that I stayed alive no matter what despite my wishes.
In years past, doctors made these decisions. The legal consequences were nill and the family respected the decisions. We need to educate people about death and quality of life. But do we need Obama making the decision? Or can he make a decision?
Posted by: David at November 16, 2009 06:25 PM (PpoBw)
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It is a difficult problem to solve for our society! Not some impersonal commision that never has to face the people that will live or die from their decisions. But no matter what BHO and his minions sasy it is a "Death Panel". The reason it is a death panel and not a life panel is because if the system is working ok than they will never have to get invloved. It's only when the costs out way the collection that they will be put to use. Since they will not have the power to raise taxes they will only have the power to cut services. If you want your Mom or Dad to give up the services that they have paid their entire lives so that illegal aliens and their endless supply of children can have the health care that they deserve then vote for another blood sucking democrat.
Posted by: inspectorudy at November 16, 2009 07:05 PM (Vo1wX)
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You write:
"Once that money is spent, Americans who have those conditions will not get their health care ration. They will suffer, and they will die, while racking up private debit attempting to save their own lives."
In a single-payer system, you are not allowed to spend your own money for health care like you spend money for everything else. You pay into the system based on earned income and care is doled out based on political correctness and political concerns. For example, in Canada, you have a 184% higher mortality rate for prostate cancer than the USA, but only an 11% higher mortality rate for breast cancer. Care to speculate as to why that might be?
Source:
http://winteryknight.wordpress.com/2009/08/03/must-read-how-does-health-care-in-the-usa-compare-with-other-countries/
Posted by: Wintery Knight at November 16, 2009 08:21 PM (a+QKZ)
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Anyone hear the rumor that the AP was going to assign a dozen or so reporters to "fact-check" the health care bills?
Me neither.
Posted by: SouthernRoots at November 17, 2009 12:20 AM (FJRFk)
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CY, are you suggesting that under the current Medicare law, Congress authorizes unlimited funding year in and year out, or do you suspect that indeed there is already a certain amount of money budgeted for the program each year as part of the... federal budget?
I mean seriously CY, it's great to see you're in favor of unlimited spending for a government run, single payer, socialized medicine program like Medicare. Strange, but great.
I am curious though, why don't you guys simply suggest the seniors go to the emergency room for "free" care like you do for folks under 65 who lack insurance?
It's weird to see you guys supporting unlimited government funding for people over 65, but so dead set against any government involvement in the health care of people 1-64. It's almost as though your stance is completely political rather than ideological. Go figure.
Posted by: Jim at November 17, 2009 02:45 AM (KD9e1)
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It's weird to see you guys supporting unlimited government funding for people over 65
Suggest ophthalmologist visit. I see the word "unlimited" zero times in what CY wrote.
You can have an opinion, but just making stuff up is very uncool dude.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at November 17, 2009 02:53 AM (ctICi)
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OK, Mr. Avenger, explain how you can be against a "global budget" for Medicare, and against having Congress "arbitrarily decide how much to spend on health care for seniors every year", without being in favor of unlimited spending.
CY say, and I quote:
"Once that money is spent, Americans who have those conditions will not get their health care ration."
If the money can't ever run out, it's an unlimited amount, is it not?
Posted by: Jim at November 17, 2009 03:03 AM (KD9e1)
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Two problems with making people's lives a budget item.
The Government is supposed to use a thing called 'due process' to deprive people of life, liberty or property. The star chamber or arbitrary limits does neither.
Second problem is that slope is greased. So people with, say, pancreatic cancer cost too much to keep alive and never beat the disease. Or beat it so infrequently as to make it amount to the same thing. SO you get the cancer, so sad, too bad. "Die with dignity". Then someone does a study and finds out, "Hey, you know what? It costs a lot to keep people alive who have Spina bifida...Multiple Sclerosis...ALD...autism...Down's syndrome...all these untermenchen..."
When death becomes a cost cutting policy of government, it is time for good men to rise up.
Posted by: MunDane at November 17, 2009 09:12 AM (dlS06)
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Jim,
As I understand your comment, you desire a single payor system from birth to death for every American (and likely illegals as well).
I would call your attention to the fact that the US is virtually broke! Despite some funny accounting by the present government, I can assure you that the cost of health care will go through the roof if the government takes over. Sure there are problems with the current system of insurance. But the sytem itself is working fine and almost all of our current problems and cost can be attributed to government interference since 1985.
Mediare is a horrible program and does not pay it bills resulting in a passing of cost to the rest of us. Medicaid is a joke.
This is what I propose:
1. Elimination of the DEA and all controls on drugs except for quality assurance. That way if you want a pain med or antibiotic, head to Walgreen's and by it. Why do you need to see a physician? (I am a physician). If you want to know how to use the medication or to find out whic is best, then you see the doctor. I know this will result in a substantial reduction in doctor visits and many of the other problems (like AIDS) that plague us. It makes you responsible for you health.
2. A federal board to regulate the insurance agencies. This exist on a state level but not federal. This would assure portability, equality, and fairness. Get rid of state mandates.
3. Eliminate medicaid and mediare as we know them and convert to private policies. Have the government hand out the equivilant of food stamps for health care so you can pay your premium.
4. No insurance, no care.
Posted by: David at November 17, 2009 10:09 AM (dccG2)
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OK, Mr. Avenger, explain how you can be against a "global budget" for Medicare, and against having Congress "arbitrarily decide how much to spend on health care for seniors every year", without being in favor of unlimited spending.
Health care costs, for anyone, are not "unlimited" (see dictionary for definition of the word).
I want you to use crisp language. I got no horse in this game other than trying to understand WTF you are saying or advocating.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at November 17, 2009 11:39 AM (6fiQt)
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This administration has a purpose, a purpose directed by Soros. The goal, bring America to it's knees so Soros can make even more money. He is betting against the US and he has his stooly in position. IMPEACH OBAMA NOW!
Posted by: NoLibs=PerfctWrld at November 17, 2009 12:41 PM (1y/IE)
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Mr Avenger,
It might help your comprehension if you read and respond to all the words I type. But, I'll play along because it is possible you believe 'unlimited' means, and only means, 'infinite'. It does not, and I suggest 'infinite' isn't even the first definition for unlimited in most dictionaries, especially in common sense every day usage like "unlimited soup and salad", or "unlimited refills", or "unlimited night and weekend minutes".
The commons sense usage is indeed this:
1. unlimited - Having no restrictions or controls
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/unlimited
1.lacking any controls : unrestricted
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionar/Unlimited
Now read very slowly if it helps. CY does not want any bill for any Medicare patient to go unpaid in any given year. He, and the WSJ editorial, are against any budget (limit) or arbitrary decision (limit), about how much the government can pay out in a year. No $$$ amount after which no care is given. That is unlimited my friend.
As for your individual patient comment, sure no one guys bill is ever going to be infinite, but it's also silly to pretend it would have one and only one limit. A Dr could order prescription Advil instead of OTC Advil, or an additional MRI, or exploratory surgery, or another round of chemo. If no one comes between the Dr and the patient when it comes to care, and the government must pay every resultant bill for every Medicare patient, tell me where is the limit, control, or restriction? And what is the word for something without controls, restrictions or limits?
OK, your turn, please bring a little more than WTF next time.
Posted by: Jim at November 17, 2009 01:56 PM (KD9e1)
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But all semantic games with P.A. aside, it still cracks me up that CY, the WSJ, and Republican congressmen:
1) Are now defending Medicare, a single payer government program paid for (for now at least) with our tax dollars in a classic wealth distribution scheme.
2) Want the government to not interfere with said government program.
Posted by: Jim at November 17, 2009 02:07 PM (KD9e1)
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Jim,
We used to be able to order anything we desired for a patient without government interference. It was only after the government started putting in its two cents that the cost of health care went out the roof. Other than needed oversight of the insurance industry, we do not need government regulation in medicine. In fact, it causes harm.
Posted by: David at November 17, 2009 02:22 PM (dccG2)
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CY does not want any bill for any Medicare patient to go unpaid in any given year.
Why do you (apparently) believe this necessitates the government picks up 100% of the tab?
It seems to me you've excluded a whole universe of possibilities simply because it suits your position to do so.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at November 17, 2009 02:57 PM (53THr)
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David,
Insurance companies have always decided what drugs or treatments were covered for a given patient, illness or condition. And they most often have annual and/or lifetime caps in total payments they'll cover. They have their own set of unelected bureaucrats, and they have an obligation to their shareholders to maximize profits. It was never -- at least not since WWII -- just you and your Dr.
Purple Avenger,
Read what CY wrote, what the WSJ editorial he linked to says, and get back to me. CY specifically argues against people having to cover their own medical expenses, and worries about the impact of those expenses upon our economy, and likens the practice of leaving seniors with medical bills to genocide. Please address your concerns about any of that to him.
Posted by: Jim at November 17, 2009 03:15 PM (3GzXA)
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Sorry Jim, you are wrong.
Posted by: David at November 17, 2009 03:30 PM (dccG2)
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David, are you claiming no one has annual or lifetime caps to their private health insurance, and that no health insurance providers deny coverage for things they (arbitrarily) decide are unnecessary, experimental, or pre-existing?
Or that private insurers do not argue with Dr's and patients about how much they will pay out to cover the cost of any given procedure?
Please.
Posted by: Jim at November 17, 2009 03:55 PM (3GzXA)
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That not the arguement Jim. The arguement is the relationship that I stated was present until about 20 years ago. At that time there were few caps and no input from the insurance companies. Now don't tell me otherwise as I was actively billing at that time. As of about 20 years ago, congress passed a series of laws to favor the creation of HMO's. From that point on, medical care has gone down and cost has gone up. In addition, congress came up with the concept of DRG's. This has just about killed hospitals and many physicians.
Posted by: David at November 17, 2009 05:06 PM (ZgM5r)
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They already approved this in the stimulus package.
Posted by: davod at November 17, 2009 05:35 PM (GUZAT)
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Well that's an entirely different argument, how we got here, not where are we now, or why CY loves Medicare all the sudden.
The price of health care doubled in the 50s, long before Medicare or modern HMOs. Both of which were responses to the high cost of medicine and medical insurance, not the cause.
Posted by: Jim at November 17, 2009 05:41 PM (3GzXA)
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"David, are you claiming no one has annual or lifetime caps to their private health insurance, and that no health insurance providers deny coverage for things they (arbitrarily) decide are unnecessary, experimental, or pre-existing?"
In 1989 the cap was one million dollars. Mine is now five million and I do not have a golden medical package.
Posted by: davod at November 17, 2009 05:43 PM (GUZAT)
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Read what CY wrote, what the WSJ editorial he linked to says...
I'm not concerned about what they wrote. I'm focusing on what YOU WROTE.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at November 17, 2009 06:09 PM (7dU/r)
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Jim, best to ignore you as all you desire to do is argue. When I comment or read a comment I want to learn something. When someone who has been active in the medical field for 40 years tells you something about the cost of medicine, listen. Of course all I have done is talk to other physicians, hospital administrators, senators and reps and many of the other key players in this. By the way, are you a troll?
Davod, some insurance packages had limits in the 80's. It all depended on where you lived. But in the 80's insurance companies were much more compliant in paying without intefering. Of course they had experimental designations and refused to pay for really stupid treatments such as chelation. But now they will not pay for an angioplasty if the lesion is 85% and not 90%. It has gotten that stupid. In the 70' and 80's all I had to do was put a patient in the hospital and treat them and did not have to explain the situation to anyone. Now you have the insurance company breathing down your neck and many other organizations that feel a nurse can make better judgements than the doctor. In the end, it cost more money and is a waste.
Posted by: David at November 17, 2009 06:25 PM (ZgM5r)
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I'm listening David, did health care costs double in the 50s or not. If they did, and the skyrocketing costs pre-date Medicare (65) and HMOs (73), what does that tell you about cause and effect?
Look, we agree the current system is a mess, I just don't agree with you on how it should be fixed.
And for hopefully the last time. CY has a blog, I objected to some of what he said on that blog, and I think I've been very specific about what I found to be wrong, or amusing, or both. I did not offer myself as someone who has the solution to the current health care mess. He's wants to protect Medicare from government controls. It's laughable and sad.
Davod,
About 23% of people with health insurance have lifetime caps of $2 mil or less. You can go through $1 million in a couple of surgeries.
Posted by: Jim at November 17, 2009 06:51 PM (3GzXA)
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"tell me where is the limit, control, or restriction?"
Jim - That would be the common sense of the health care providers, something you apparently do not believe in otherwise you would not advance the ridiculous position you have here after twisting CY's words and those of other commenters that they support infinite medical expenditures.
Putz
Posted by: daleyrocks at November 17, 2009 06:59 PM (3O5/e)
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daleyrocks,
Speaking of twisting words, where did I say infinite medical expenditures? Please don't tell me you too don't think "unlimited refills" means you'll get an infinite amount of coffee.
As for the common sense of health care providers, last I looked Drs were complaining Medicare paid too little for procedures, not too much, and covered too few tests, not too many. What does that tell you?
Posted by: Jim at November 17, 2009 07:16 PM (3GzXA)
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Jim,
You are arguing apples and oranges. Sure health care went up in the 50's because prior to that it did not exist. In the decades preceeding the 50's you could only get a handful of surgeries and the mortality associated with those was high. In the 50's modern antibiotics came on the scene and the whole picture changed. Cost went up secondary to technicology. In the 70's the effect of the government came to play and they really stuck it to us in the 80's. Just remember, government equals and increase in cost and inefficiency.
Posted by: David at November 17, 2009 08:05 PM (ZgM5r)
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That's a great point David, but I'm not sure how we could ever factor out the increasing complexity of medical care, I mean it's not like there wasn't an ongoing explosion of new drugs, treatment possibilities like chemo and transplants, and techs like MRIs and PET scans that occurred after the government increased it's role in health care. Apples, oranges and pears, oh my.

Posted by: Jim at November 17, 2009 08:19 PM (KD9e1)
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"where did I say infinite medical expenditures?"
Jim - Well you seem to switch back and forth between dictionary definitions and "common usage" at your own convenience. By "unlimited", which you use in many places, viz.
a) "If the money can't ever run out, it's an unlimited amount, is it not?"
b)"It's weird to see you guys supporting unlimited government funding for people over 65"
a) Sure sounds infinite under common usage and that's what you claim by some twisted reading that CY is advocating, yet you have not bothered to point that out. How many knee replacements can a patient have in a year, Jim? Maybe they could add in some unlimited hip replacements as well. Is that infinite or unlimited if you are more comfortable with that word? Or under ObamaCare should they take a pill instead?
Your argument, if you can call it that, is ridiculous. Do you sit down to pee?
Posted by: daleyrocks at November 17, 2009 11:16 PM (3O5/e)
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CY doesn't want Congress to set any maximum dollar amount that can be paid out to Medicare in any given year. Is that infinite, no. Is it unlimited yes. I don't see why that's so hard to wrap ones brain around or why it's so hard to see that I chose one word, not the other.
Unlimited refills are poured in restaurants every day, and yet all those cups fall well short of infinity. Again, why is that hard to understand?
CY doesn't want it to be possible for unpaid bills being handed to folks on Medicare. What else is that if not unlimited funding? No bill unpaid, no limit to how much gets paid out for any illness or condition. If I'm wrong, and annual Medicare costs have an absolute limit by all means add up all the possible bills and supply us with the magic total. Then add one more office visit, or a thousand.
BTW, no additional comments about your own claim that Drs, if left to themselves would order fewer tests and charge less for everything, or where exactly on your body you pulled that idea from?
What's ridiculous is watching anti-big government, anti-taxation, anti-single payer people suddenly defend Medicare -- because seniors vote -- and accuse anyone looking for ways to cut Medicare costs of genocide. That is some unlimited gall right there. Perhaps even infinite gall.
Last but not least, I'd really appreciate it if you'd spend less time thinking about me peeing.
Posted by: Jim at November 18, 2009 12:46 AM (KD9e1)
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And daylerocks, if you read a little more carefully you'll see that unlimited not meaning infinite is not only the common usage, but the #1 dictionary definition for the word, so I never switched from one to the other, it's just a couple of people here who don't seem to understand the meaning of the word. But don't take my word for it, read and learn.
Posted by: Jim at November 18, 2009 12:48 AM (KD9e1)
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Well, the government just recommended that women under 50 don't get mammograms. Hello health care rationing and death panels! This is all about costs and not about women's health.
Posted by: Right on Demand at November 18, 2009 01:19 AM (EK6Jb)
34
Jim - If you spend less time worried about dictionary definitions and coffee servings which make you pee, you might be able to glean a clue about CY's point rather than constructing ridiculous strawman arguments which nobody has made and then bravely hacking them down yourself.
According to Dictionary.com - the following is the third definition for infinite:
"3. unlimited or unmeasurable in extent of space, duration of time, etc.: the infinite nature of outer space."
It lists as antonyms: "Antonyms:
1. small, limited."
Merriam Webster lists the following:
"3 : subject to no limitation or external determination"
So you can blow your sophistry on the word parsing out your pie hole.
It is clear to any honest reader that the point being made is that government run healthcare leads to rationing and that the death panels included in the Democrat bills insert faceless bureacrats between doctors and their patients in the determination of medical decisions.
Think about it. It has been a standard talking point the left has unsuccessfully been fighting off for quite some time.
Posted by: daleyrocks at November 18, 2009 07:26 PM (3O5/e)
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Shocker: Brian Ross and The Blotter Get Details of Fort Hood Story Wrong
There are two constants we can expect from the ABC News blog The Blotter.
They will report in great detail on stories involving the criminal use of a firearm.
They will invariably get significant details grossly wrong.
Whether the subject is
Mexico's drug cartels,
items restricted by the 1994 Crime Bill, or
basic descriptions of guns used in massacres, Ros and ABC News are predictably incompetent, and their
streak continued today as they try to discuss some of the weaponry purchased by Fort Hood Jihaidi, Major Nidal Hasan:
Right next door to the strip club is the gun store, Guns Galore, where authorities say Hasan bought his semi-automatic pistol and bullets and in the weeks before the shooting, 13 extra ammunition clips that could hold up to 30 bullets each.
As anyone with a rudimentary understanding of modern firearms will tell you, modern handguns do not use clips. They use magazines, and yes there is a distinctive difference between a single piece of spring steel that holds a group of cartridges together (a clip) and an enclosed, spring-loaded mechanical device that encloses and protects cartridges an actively feeds them into a firearm's chamber (a magazine).
Then there is the fact that one cannot readily buy a 30-round magazine for the Five-SeveN pistol as ABC tries to claim.
Precisely two magazines are available with the Five-seveN, a 10-round magazine for states that restrict the number of cartridges a civilian's handgun can carry, and the standard 20-round magazine that the weapon was designed to accept. No one makes a 30-round magazine for the Five-seveN, though CMMG has a
10-round extension one can purchase separately and install to the base of the factory 20-round magazines. There are no reports that Hasan actually purchased such extensions, much less used them in his attack.
But that sort of inaccuracy is par for the course for a propagandist far more interested in pushing a political agenda than actually reporting the facts, and Ross is quite consistent in framing stories in such a way to give gun control groups an edge.
After all, who needs facts?
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
01:21 PM
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The "clips" vs "mags" thing i can almost accept, that's just idiotic popular culture.
but the 30 vs 20 round thing is pretty lame. Next its going to be a 200 round drum?

Posted by: John at November 16, 2009 01:39 PM (mAp1o)
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Yeah, and the silly folks also think it was a nearly 6 inch diam. barrel.
All they need is some square backed bullets and they'd be all set.
Posted by: brando at November 16, 2009 03:46 PM (IPGju)
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Well the "clips vs magazines" thing is generational as well. As one who trained and carried the M1 Garand, I often find myself reverting to "clips" when I really mean Magazines.
Of course the dimwit at ABC wouldn't know anything about that, and is likely just repeating whatever the anti-gun crowd has provided him as a "press release". That intellectual laziness continually pops up in the press, as they take, verbatim, the "facts" from the anti-gun groups and repeat it as fact.
Posted by: Jim at November 16, 2009 03:59 PM (WacVk)
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Good call; the total ignorance of totally righteous haters of the facts of whatever they hate has always amazed me. Keep on dinging them for their ignorance and arrogance.
Posted by: EdGi at November 16, 2009 09:19 PM (qG6jM)
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"After all, who needs facts?"
The above describes perfectly the liberal mindset:
Facts? We don't need no Steenking Facts!
Afterall, facts simply get in the way of what they believe.
Posted by: firefirefire at November 17, 2009 06:33 AM (tbYJ7)
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The best definition I've read is "Clips load magazines".
So wouldn't that make it "clips feed magazines, magazines feed guns"?
Posted by: Veeshir at November 17, 2009 04:05 PM (110Vq)
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Militia Stories
A constant theme of the political left since the election of Barack Obama has been that militias are forming, and gosh-dern it, they're going to lynch somebody or blow something up, just you wait and see. These stories are almost always canned, trotted out and rehashed to rally Obama supporters after he has done something particularly stupid, with the most recent incident caused by Obama subserviently bowing to a foreign head of state.
CNN is running such a canned story as their top story right now on CNN.com, and left wing Raw Story predictably
parrots their claim, recalling a dubious report from Mark Potok,
the official source for reports on radical hate groups according to the left wing intelligensia. That Potok has to make such claims to justify his paycheck is never questioned.
And yet despite all the fear-mongering led by Potok's need for fundraising and the media's desire to buck-up their floundering President, the various militias have consistently disappointed the media. They've welcomed the press with open arms as they did the CNN crew and have been unwilling to bomb buildings or rob banks or engage in any of the other behavior so many left-wing extremist groups did from the late 1960s through the 1980s and up until the
recent activities of
left wing radicals.
And perhaps it is with a certain degree of irony that the other militia story in the news today comes from the NY
Times own Times Traveler Blog, recalling a story from a century ago where militiamen saved the life of an African-American that an Illinois mob
had decided to lynch:
The guile of police and deputy sheriffs, and then the arrival of the militia forces, prevented the Cairo, Ill., mob yesterday from seizing a second African-American, Arthur Alexander, after it lynched Will James a day earlier. Alexander "was clothed in a policeman's uniform and was thus taken safely through the city to the county jail. Word had gone ahead that he had been captured, and members of the mob were looking for the officers who had him in charge, but the disguise was not penetrated. It was well along in the morning before the knowledge spread that Alexander was in the jail. A crowd gathered then, and might have taken the negro out, but by this time the call had gone out for Company K, the local militia body, and the rioters were awed. Before they could get up the courage to act the guardsmen had gathered and a squad was sent to the jail. Part of the company also guarded the homes of Major Parsons and Sheriff Davis, who had been threatened with violence. These men seemed determined to do their duty and the mob took no chances. Meanwhile special trains were hurrying to the city the troops ordered out by Gov. Deneen. The Carbondale company arrived at daybreak, and others came in rapidly, so that by early afternoon eleven companies, comprising 800 men, were on duty at points where they might be needed. Saloons, which had kept open all night in defiance of the Mayor and the police, were closed tight and kept closed, and crowds were kept moving. It was decided late in the afternoon that Alexander should be taken to some point where there was no mob feeling. He was escorted from the jail to a special train on the Illinois Central Railroad by seven companies of militia."
The
Times article is unclear of the nature of the militia, and whether it was comprised of the National Guard or the state militias that were still common during that era. But you can rest assured the current
Times wouldn't cover that eventuality if it occurred today.
It doesn't fit the narrative.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
12:44 PM
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The difference between right-wing and left-wing "militias" is that the right wing ones usually want the gov't, and most everybody else, to leave them alone.
Left wing "militias" spend most of their time trying to be the gov't.
Posted by: Veeshir at November 17, 2009 04:03 PM (110Vq)
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A few comments.
1) I am a member of the military, and, full disclosure, am a conservative.
2) If there were wide spread, or even occasional militia violence we'd hear all about it in the news. We don't. Hmmmmmm
3) Most people in various militias have been conservatives, who love guns, don't want big gov't, teach survivalism, and want to simply be left alone.
IMO, what the left hates about them is that they are :
1) Gun lovers - and responsible ones at that.
2) Don't like big gov't - which the liberal media is in love with
3) They are the epitome of what the left sees as red-neck, gun-toting, tobacco chewing, burly men and women who don't allow themselves to be spoon fed revisionist history or news.
Ever notice, for example how when the Minutemen stood up to patrol the border, how the press was just SALIVATING at the opportunity to point to them as racist, or violent, or [what-ever] - but instead the MM caught 2 ACLU types smoking dope on film?
And the left called them vigillante's - while, if memory serves, we used to call them Neighborhood Watch.
Some days after years and years of misinformation I just get sick to death of the "spin" (lies) that I see in most news outlets.
On a side note - we in the military often call CNN the Communist News Network (or Pravda).
Steven
Posted by: L. Steven Beene II at November 17, 2009 04:17 PM (zNgZK)
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Buyer's Remorse?
ABC News has an article up noting that six in ten Americans see Sarah Palin as being unqualified for President. That's saying a lot.
Palin was on the Wasilla, AK city council from 1992-96, was mayor of Wasilla from 1996-2002, chaired the AK Oil and Gas Conservation Commission from 2003-2004 until she resigned in protest over the lack of ethics of other Republicans on the commission. Palin then became Alaska's governor from 2006 until her 2009 resignation.
By comparison, our current President spent three uneventful terms in the Illinois state senate before winning a U.S. Senate seat, where he managed to compile a voting record to the left of even declared socialist Bernie Sanders. He never held a private sector or elected executive position in his entire life prior to the Presidency, and his one piddling "executive experience" with the Chicago Annenberg Challenge was an unmitigated failure.
So when Americans are polled about Palin, what are they really responding to?
Are they responding to the media's unflattering portrayal of her, or could they be responding not to just Palin's own perceived inadequacies, but also out of regret now that they see the consequences of electing someone was even less qualified than she was for the office?
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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I think the public are responding to what they've been told. And what they were told is "Palin=Inexperienced Crazy Woman" and "Obama=Very Smart/Cool Black Man".
Posted by: Steve at November 16, 2009 11:46 AM (sPswN)
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Old Media and the Democrat Party effectively "Dan Quayled" her. That's their MO when they spot an impending powerful adversary.
Posted by: Rick at November 16, 2009 12:06 PM (FWmwx)
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If a politician is so ridiculously intelligent to be Quayled, they get Cheny'd. A Cheny vs Obama debate would have been hilariously one sided.
Posted by: MANstreammedia at November 16, 2009 12:37 PM (5q/vg)
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I feel so sorry for Sarah I could burst! Come on fellow Tea Partyer's!!! Let's show the MSM a thing and elect this classy little Lady! Sarah, despite the fact that I feel sorry for you, you are My President!!!!
Yeah Sarah and Todd!!!!
Posted by: tomcj at November 16, 2009 12:43 PM (eqz83)
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It's an old truism that people accuse you of what they would do [or be] themselves. The liberal hatchet squad is already revving up for another dissing of the good Sarah. As tomcj says above, "Yeah, Sarah and Todd."
Marianne Matthews
Posted by: Marianne Matthews at November 16, 2009 01:02 PM (VbbNx)
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Something new .. Fabricated news stories .. in Alaska.
There is an irony here that goes beyond words.
Posted by: Neo at November 16, 2009 02:23 PM (tE8FB)
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He did have that copy editor job where he felt like he was behind enemy lines.
Posted by: Federale at November 16, 2009 03:10 PM (thedx)
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Palin is eminently qualified to be president when compared to Obama, however, that is a very low standard.
They are reflecting regret that they managed to elect the only person less qualified than Sarah Palin to run the United States, the mayors of most cities are responsible for more people than her, but at least she was in charge of something before seeking election
Posted by: MAModerate at November 16, 2009 07:14 PM (SVD0U)
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There is no rational basis for questioning Sarah Palin's qualifications. Such a position simply reflects the effectiveness of the MSM Big Lie technique, which is itself a reflection of their hysteria, and fear of her very real qualifications.
Among other things, it should be obvious that time spent inside the Washington Beltway circles actually REDUCES a person's qualifications for taking higher office (just consider Newt Gingrich).
Sarah Palin can handle executive responsibility and governing authority without losing her ethics and basic principles. She loves America, independence and self-reliance. She can be trusted to make decisions from the unshakable standpoint of a fiscal conservative and small-government patriot.
Sarah Palin embodies America's foundational principles. That makes her qualified.
Best regards, Peter Warner.
PS: Hi Marianne, good to see you posting here occasionally. I'm still in the Lex community, but my browser is too old to allow me to post there.
Posted by: Peter Warner at November 17, 2009 09:55 AM (JRnGT)
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If you can't name a news source you regularly use, and instead say, "All of them," you are unqualified to be president.
Posted by: Evan at November 17, 2009 03:23 PM (T7lzv)
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November 15, 2009
Future ACORN Employees of the Year?
As we've seen in the various videos released thus far, ACORN seems completely fine with the idea of trafficking children for the purposes of pedophile prostitution. We can only assume that Mario Andrette McNeill and Antoinette Nicole Davis are looking to not just join the group, but shoot for senior management positions.
The two are presently under arrest for kidnapping, and human trafficking and child abuse involving prostitution.
The victim is Davis' own five year-old daughter, Shaniya.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
08:55 PM
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1
And now you can add murder. That poor kid.
Posted by: Pablo at November 17, 2009 03:12 AM (yTndK)
2
As Pablo indicates, the police have found the body:
http://www.newsmax.com/us/us_girl_disappears_nc/2009/11/16/286798.html
Best regards, Peter Warner.
Posted by: Peter Warner at November 17, 2009 10:00 AM (JRnGT)
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November 14, 2009
O-bow-ma
It seems that he will never learn:
How low will the new American president go for the world's royalty?
This photo will get Democrat President Obama a lot of approving nods in Japan this weekend, especially among the older generation of Japanese who still pay attention to the royal family living in its downtown castle. Very low bows like this are a sign of great respect and deference to a superior.
And that's the problem.
As a matter of protocol, American President's should not bow to other world leaders that
are their equals. To adopt a subservient role is not acceptable as a matter of protocol, and is demeaning to the office he holds. The fact that he's done this before only exacerbates the problem.
I'm do not doubt other American Presidents have made fabulous faux pas of protocol, but I don't recall one who has ever done it so frequently, so early into office.
I guess we should simply be thankful that we he arose, he didn't give a
chintzy, thoughtless gift...
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
02:38 PM
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Posted by: Mark Harvey at November 14, 2009 03:14 PM (MaSnv)
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Looks like he has some sort of slave mentality
Paul in Texas
Posted by: Pauk at November 14, 2009 03:18 PM (rCmYM)
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It is hard to learn, when you are obviously learning disabled.
Posted by: Musings at November 14, 2009 05:18 PM (6WjQu)
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American Power tracked back with (the best video evah!), 'Bowing Before Monarchs and Tyrants: Obama 'Restores' America's World Standing With His Head Down - UPDATE: REAGAN DIDN'T BOW!!'.
Posted by: Americaneocon at November 14, 2009 05:56 PM (ZslWq)
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I would like to respect the office and the results of the election, but I am finding it extremely difficult if not impossible to regard this man as my President, and his supporters as fellow citizens.
Posted by: zhombre at November 14, 2009 07:15 PM (kLU+g)
Posted by: megapotamus at November 14, 2009 10:26 PM (bRqVN)
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The funny thing is, I don't recall him bowing to Queen Elizabeth.
Posted by: trentk269 at November 14, 2009 10:57 PM (i6cFP)
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He is a mockery and he embarrasses me constantly! I cannot wait for this tool to go home in 2012! Well actually I cannot wait for him to be defanged in 2010 and then sent home in 2012!
Posted by: Jaded at November 14, 2009 11:10 PM (1I7uq)
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Each year I teach a unit on understanding the media. It provides many opportunities for writing, analysis, dealing with logical fallacies, researching misleading and false statements, and dealing with photoshopping. I've been using photos and video of Obama bowing before the Saudi king for some time. And now I have another.
My kids (high school) don't, at first, understand why it's a big deal, but they know that the White House lying about it is wrong. When I explain that from the founding of the nation, Americans have bowed to no man, have established a classless society where all men are free and equal, and that for a President to bow to a foreign leader is essentially un-American, they get it.
While it is true that in Japan, bowing is a rough equivalent of the handshaker, as a long time student of Kendo, Japanese fencing, I can tell you that what Obama is doing goes far beyond an inferior showing respect to a superior. For that kind of formal bowing, a bow of approximately 30° is required (bows of about 15° are the norm in martial arts kata). As you can see, Obama is doing far more, in essence, debasing himself--and his nation--before the Japanese, people who absolutely understand the "base spaniel fawning," as Shakespeare put it in Julius Caesar, inherent in his sickening display. Most traditional, older Japanese would interpret what Obama is doing as strange and inappropriate. So should we.
Posted by: mike at November 14, 2009 11:13 PM (goVFs)
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I note that a few liberals have decided to comment with their usual uneducated and uninformed opinions. They obviously don't understand the concept of slavary or how it was extablished in America.
All races were subjected to slavary at the time of the founding of the English colonies. For the liberals, that was the time that the essence of the US was extablished. It was quickly determined that whites would either run away or kill there owners. So they were not especially favored. Indians were tried but they just died. So your investment was very short lived. Then someone hit on blacks. It is felt that the original reason was because they had a relative immunity to malaria due to sickle cell disease and trait. Besides, they were easy to obtain as their familes and friends would readily sell them and there was little effort needed to collect the individuals. On arrival to Georgia, a group was taken into the backwoods and the overseers left when the malarial season started. On return six months later, not only were the blacks healthy, they had not run away despite the fact that the Spanish would have taken them in or the local Indians who were friendly. Also, they had multipled. Subsequently, it was noted that they rarely ran away. The only problem was that for a given task, it took three or four to do the work of one of another race. This is spelled out in most any text on slavary.
On another note, does anyone know about Obama's educational background. He went to Harvard so likely was affirmative action and passed along. It is not apparent that he has stood alone and critically analysed.
Posted by: David at November 15, 2009 12:21 PM (PpoBw)
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Oh for goodness sake, David.
Your comments degrade an important column at Powerline.
Obama has been going out of his way to make the US subservient to other countries as a matter of his socialist principles and some racial anger, not because the color of his skin somehow signals meniality.
Take your racist crap elsewhere and let responsible conservatives figure out what our response will be to the mess this president has created.
Posted by: observer at November 15, 2009 01:26 PM (zQK11)
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Duh, 'ConfederateYankee', not 'Powerline'. PIMF
That said, the comment stands.
Posted by: observer at November 15, 2009 01:28 PM (zQK11)
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I assumed David was a Moby.
Posted by: megapotamus at November 15, 2009 02:03 PM (uoOLU)
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observer,
What is racist about my statements? The mear fact that I mentioned the black race, but then how do you know my race? What I gave you is fact, history. Are all the races the same? No. Science will point that out readily. Do I believe in sterotypes? Absolutely! But that is not racism. Am I sterotyping Obama? Absolutley! But so are the individuals that dreamed up affirmative action and thus feel that blacks can not compete on their own. I did not come up with affirmative action. So, please indicate what aspect of my comments is racist, other than the fact that I have dared to indicate a sterotype for blacks and present some history. As to affirmative action comments, do you really think that all people are equal if they do not face the same challenges?
Posted by: David at November 15, 2009 04:43 PM (PpoBw)
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Obama is just showing the Japanese that he can bow better than they can. Seriously.
He really is clueless.
Posted by: Jack at November 16, 2009 05:44 AM (bvDV5)
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Each year I teach a unit on understanding the media. It provides many opportunities for writing, analysis, dealing with logical fallacies, researching misleading and false statements, and dealing with photoshopping. I've been using photos and video of Obama bowing before the Saudi king for some time. And now I have another.
My kids (high school) don't, at first, understand why it's a big deal, but they know that the White House lying about it is wrong. When I explain that from the founding of the nation, Americans have bowed to no man, have established a classless society where all men are free and equal, and that for a President to bow to a foreign leader is essentially un-American, they get it.
While it is true that in Japan, bowing is a rough equivalent of the handshaker, as a long time student of Kendo, Japanese fencing, I can tell you that what Obama is doing goes far beyond an inferior showing respect to a superior. For that kind of formal bowing, a bow of approximately 30° is required (bows of about 15° are the norm in martial arts kata). As you can see, Obama is doing far more, in essence, debasing himself--and his nation--before the Japanese, people who absolutely understand the "base spaniel fawning," as Shakespeare put it in Julius Caesar, inherent in his sickening display. Most traditional, older Japanese would interpret what Obama is doing as strange and inappropriate. So should we.
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Please don't teach my children, where is the school so we don't move there
Posted by: Mystico3 at November 16, 2009 06:29 AM (o4Pof)
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On another note, does anyone know about Obama's educational background. He went to Harvard so likely was affirmative action and passed along.
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yeah, had nothing to do with grades, he was just the "lucky negro". It is "LIKELY"? likely would mean you have facts to defend your guess, other than he was a black guy that went to harvard....and columbia...
um..psst, that isn't how AA works. they don't draw straws for the lucky black when it comes to friggin HARVARD
Posted by: Mystico3 at November 16, 2009 06:35 AM (o4Pof)
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David, this might be stating the obvious, but is your last name Duke?
Posted by: Mystico3 at November 16, 2009 06:36 AM (o4Pof)
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hey confed Yankee
Please provide all of us this "protocol" you speak of that has been assigned to presidents.
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I'm do not doubt other American Presidents have made fabulous faux pas of protocol, but I don't recall one who has ever done it so frequently, so early into office.
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I'm do doubt that you have ever watched film of Nixon, you might want to pick it up. or W kissing the terrorist funder aka oil investor. I'll take a bow over a kiss and holding hands
Posted by: Mystico3 at November 16, 2009 06:41 AM (o4Pof)
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Mystico3, you mean David Duke the Democrat, Racist, Anti-war, Truther, who Liberals bring up in reverence?
Just curious.
Or do you actually, quite literally believe that you were just speaking to David Duke?
Either way, it's non-sequitor. The President of the United States of America shouldn't be subserviently bowing anyone. Get real.
Posted by: brando at November 16, 2009 12:23 PM (IPGju)
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Dear Mystico3:
I normally don't do back and forth comments on blogs, but just this once... My media unit has as it's central underlying premise that the legitimate, vital function of a free press is fully and honestly informing the public in the realm of news. Opinion journalism is another matter and one may be as biased as one pleases so long as it is labeled as such. What part of expecting the news to be factual, complete and unbiased would give you pause?
Posted by: mikemcdaniel at November 18, 2009 09:54 PM (goVFs)
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The "Obama Prayer"
Psalm 109:8
It was sent to me like that via email. Straight up it's pretty amusing, though the larger context of the entire Psalm it is a bit strong to apply to the President... to put it mildly.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
02:02 PM
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November 13, 2009
Census Worker Made Suicide Look Like Homicide for Insurance Payoff?
I guess they'll quietly drop this from the narrative.
Two law enforcement officials, who spoke to the AP on condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to discuss the case, said investigators were trying to determine whether Bill Sparkman committed suicide but altered the scene to make it look like a homicide, allowing his son to collect.
Life insurance policies typically do not cover suicides within a certain time period after the policy begins.
Sad, in so many ways.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
07:48 PM
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1
I thought this gentleman was the first casualty of the Whiskey Rebellion 2K9.
Posted by: megapotamus at November 13, 2009 09:16 PM (Uu2CW)
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But what about the teabaggers?
Sad.
Posted by: Pablo at November 14, 2009 12:06 AM (yTndK)
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Suicide is not covered for two years after policy inception. Get is straight folks. Somebody should ask how long his policy was in force.
Posted by: TimothyJ at November 14, 2009 12:52 AM (IKKIf)
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ACORN Again
Another member admits to widespread voter fraud.
The ties between ACORN, the SEIU, AFL-CIO, and the Obama Administration is starting to sound like the largest incident of racketeering in American history.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
02:30 PM
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Now we know why the Obama administration is going to try to ram amnesty for 12 million illegal aliens through next year. They need more votes and Acorn cannot deliver them any longer.
Posted by: iconoclast at November 13, 2009 02:51 PM (FGCRY)
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The politicians are irreversible committed now to the E-Verify system of verifying legal workers. Sen. Harry Reid and his cronies may have--ONLY--authorized it for only 3 years, but they will have all hell to pay with the people, if they try to kill it again. They have managed to soften 287 G, the arrest and detain mechanism, given to regular police to fight illegal immigration. The same situation is in slowing ICE from expanding their duties, by executing lightening raids on suspicious businesses that are using large amounts of foreign labor. But right now the feds are building on E-Verify with great success, no matter what the open border opponents say? Another key component of Illegal immigration enforcement is knowing when tourists leave the country? Plans are being finalized to implement a data base of eye and fingerprint scans, when a person leaves the airport for departure.
I am sure with this coupled with entry customs inspection the Department of Homeland Security (DHS) will be able to detect visa over-stays? Along with further cultivation of E-Verify the US will have a much strengthened prevention against illegal immigrants. Very soon the mainstream of the American population will be confronted with this new Comprehension Immigration Reform. This should not be left for either the Democratic leadership or the minority Republicans to decide? We can no longer trust either party, to carry out the wishes of all of us. My thought would be a national referendum, but even though we are a Democracy we are over and over again--cheated by our legislators, who are in deep collusion with business organizations and the open-border entities? Those of us, who have a high respect for what citizenship means, should blast--ALL--Senators and Representatives and call 202-224-3121.
How can DHS Secretary Janet Napolitano keep a composed expression telling the American people that our borders are secure? When there is a--OUT-OF-CONTROL-war happening everyday on our Southern border, with drug cartels, gun running and slavers. She, President Bush's people already settled for a single layer fence, not was originally anticipated along the border? So this border separating the US from Mexico is far from being secure?
JETTISON SENATOR HARRY REID (D-NV) IN 2010 WITH A "NO AMNESTY" MESSAGE? ALL POLITICIANS NEED TO BE WARNED, THAT IF THEY VOTE FOR THE 20 TO 30 MILLION ILLEGAL ALIENS, THEY TO CAN BE EJECTED FROM OFFICE?
TELL THEM THEY MIGHT FORCE THROUGH ANOTHER BLANKET AMNESTY? BUT HAVE THEY EVEN CONSIDERED THAT MILLIONS WORLDWIDE HAVE ALREADY BEEN ALERTED TO A NEW PATH TO CITIZENSHIP? ALL THESE ALIENS HAVE TO DO IS CLIMB THE UNDERMANNED BORDER FENCE AND WAIT FOR THE NEW ACT TO PASS?
NEWS FROM THE IMMIGRATION WAR FRONT.
A Democrat Congressman from Ohio has introducing a bill, to collect health care fees from foreign countries where illegal immigrants were borne? According to the source illegal aliens who receive health care in America, will have their treatment deducted from foreign aid sent to different nations.
Have our lawmakers had any comprehension of the dire predicament of not only the government welfare programs? Have they any conceivable idea of low income job loss to the American worker? Have Politicians even taken into consideration what is expected of the middle class taxpayers? Are Lawmakers not disturbed with OVERPOPULATION by 2050, according to the Census Bureau that will bring upon us all serious shortage of drinking water, energy and oil? Now learn about the corruption at state and federal level from JUDICIAL WATCH. Then read NUMBERSUSA to see the immigration enforcement gradings of our politicians, and then take back you vote. Finally see details of the forthcoming overpopulation at CAPSWEB.
Only the American people should decide the future of America? Not the special interest lobbyists, not the open border groups, nor the legislators who have completely ignored--THE PEOPLE'S--wishes for far too long? The Council of Foreign Relations (CFR) can be identified with an underground agenda of pushing politicians, to the free flow of cheap labor nationwide. See the absolute chaos by uncontrolled legal and illegal immigration in England and the rest of Europe. GOOGLE--the foreign press?
Posted by: Brittancus at November 13, 2009 07:08 PM (Kc4uK)
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Flaming "Oba Mao" Popular in China
Via Breitbart:
The Chinese have learned English from his speeches and celebrated the way he rolls up his sleeves. Now President Barack Obama is finally coming, and he's being greeted with "Oba Mao" T-shirts and a statue of him that bursts into flames.
Don't get excited, folks... though he flees the country as much as possible,
President Britney always come back eventually.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
02:13 PM
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"Liar, Liar...
Your statue is on Fire..."
More appropriate than it appeared at first glance...
Posted by: doug in colorado at November 13, 2009 08:03 PM (VmgKk)
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Anyone Got $150 Billion for a Skid Plate?
Obama needs one for the bus.
Thump thump:
White House Counsel Greg Craig is expected to announce as early as Friday that he plans to step down from his post following a rocky tenure, people familiar with the matter said.
Craig, the top lawyer at the White House and a close aide to President Barack Obama, has helped lead the administration's efforts on several national-security policies that initially enjoyed popular support but have since become liabilities for Obama.
These include the planned closure of the prison for terrorism suspects at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, and the release of Bush administration-era national-security documents.
Craig's departure has been widely expected since the summer. He came under criticism from inside the administration and in Congress for a perceived failure to manage the political issues that have originated from Obama's decision to close Guantanamo, according to officials in the administration and in Congress.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
09:09 AM
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There are many reasons to object to Craig. His record is nauseating but neither his record nor his actions have anything to do with this. He is merely a convenient scalp to take and parade about when the subject of Gitmo inevitably arises. His greatest qualification for this ceremonial defenestration is his Clintonite pedigree. Bill, lately, has been carrying mucho water for Team O. Knowing him as we do, can we doubt he expects something in return? And the recent treatment of Hillary, as something like a crazy aunt consigned to the attic, is not it. Watch the Clintons, Barry. Craig is their pet gargoyle and unless you got prior permission to knock him off the roof, they will draw their price.
Posted by: megapotamus at November 13, 2009 10:24 AM (eILON)
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It's very interesting to me to see how, on the one hand, Bush was loyal (to a fault) to a lot of his people, Obama tends to eject those souls troublesome to his agenda post-haste.
Now I'm not going to attempt to draw any conclusions from this but, like I said, it is interesting...
Posted by: ECM at November 13, 2009 12:06 PM (q3V+C)
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>>"Craig, the top lawyer at the White House and a close aide to President Barack Obama, has helped lead the administration's efforts on several national-security policies that initially enjoyed popular support but have since become liabilities for Obama."
So shouldn't Obama be stepping down for doing what this guy (who Obama selected) said?
How many people get thrown under the bus before it dawns on the public that the problem is with the man who appointed them?
Posted by: Steve at November 13, 2009 12:58 PM (LvFdr)
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Steve:
I think, at least in part, that you've answered my question as to why Bush kept around some of the more questionable clowns in his retinue for so long--he was afraid (rightfully, as Obama is now bearing out) that he would be painted as incompetent by the media for doing the sort of thing Obama does with a carefree attitude.
Posted by: ECM at November 13, 2009 02:38 PM (q3V+C)
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