Confederate Yankee
March 12, 2008
Manufactured Destruction
CAMERA has the goods on the BBC, which claimed in a video report that the family home of the terrorist that murdered eight students and wounded nine more last week was destroyed in retaliation by the Israelis.
It never happened.
For now, the house still stands, prompting CAMERA to wonder why BBC reporter Nick Miles would report a false demolition in a voiceover, and why the BBC would air a videoclip without properly vetting it.
This should be a career-ender for someone (or someones) if the BBC cares about their reputation as a legitimate news source.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
08:19 AM
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1
Clearly, the BBC is working with the terrorists. The Brits are notorious anti-Semites.
Posted by: Zifnab at March 12, 2008 08:56 AM (Usaah)
2
Really?.
Last time I looked American antisemitism was rising faster compared to British.
Recent studies prove this.
Posted by: James Murray at March 12, 2008 11:11 AM (By6si)
Posted by: Techie at March 12, 2008 01:18 PM (AV8Z6)
4
Let's see your studies, Mr. Murray. Links, please.
Posted by: C-C-G at March 12, 2008 06:44 PM (XoKp7)
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"if the BBC cares about their reputation as a legitimate news source."
That's a good one.
Posted by: RichmondG30 at March 12, 2008 08:56 PM (wP7LD)
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March 11, 2008
Fallon Gonged in Favor of Petraeus
Admiral William Fallon, Commander, U.S. Central Command, is resigning:
Adm. William Fallon, the top U.S. military commander for the Middle East, is resigning, Defense Secretary Robert Gates said Tuesday.
Gates said Fallon had asked him Tuesday morning for permission to retire and Gates agreed. Gates said the decision was entirely Fallon's and that Gates believed it was "the right thing to do."
Fallon was the subject of an article published last week in Esquire magazine that portrayed him as opposed to President Bush's Iran policy. It described Fallon as a lone voice against taking military action to stop the Iranian nuclear program.
Gates described as "ridiculous" any notion that Fallon's departure signals the United States is planning to go to war with Iran. And he said "there is a misperception" that Fallon disagrees with the administration's approach to Iran.
"I don't think there were differences at all," Gates added.
I suspect that there will be those on the fringe left who will be screeching about how Fallon's resignation is the prelude to a preemptive war with Iran—probably before I even finish this sentence—no doubt suggested by a certain
Esquire article that stated the quite fanciful claim that "it's left to Fallon--and apparently Fallon alone..." to keep Dubya from bombing Iran into the stone age.
Barnett seems to have completely overlooked the fact that it has been Tehran, not Washington, that has publicly promised not just war, but genocide (but then, in the same article, it was Burnett that claimed Fallon was "waging peace" with the Chinese in his prior assignment, even as Fallon's replacement
expressed concern over massive increases in Chinese military spending, so consider the source), but that probably has little to do with his resignation at this time.
No, as
Blackfive rightly notes, Fallon's retirement comes not because of friction with the Bush Administration (though there may have been some), but because General David Patraeus is coming to town, no doubt as the Administration's favored choice to lead Central Command after his implementation of COIN strategy in Iraq.
My guess? Lieutenant General Raymond T. Odierno, who executed the surge so well, backfills Petraeus as Commanding General, (MNF-I).
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
03:16 PM
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1
Jim Robbins of National Review notes that Fallon "... may be as much a victim of [Esquire writer] Thomas Barnett's weirdly hyperbolic prose style as anything else. 'If, in the dying light of the Bush administration, we go to war with Iran, it'll all come down to one man. If we do not go to war with Iran, it'll come down to the same man. He is that rarest of creatures in the Bush universe: the good cop on Iran, and a man of strategic brilliance. His name is William Fallon...' Come on, could anyone buy that? Contrast it with the allegation (since denied) that Fallon called General David Petraeus an "*ss-kissing little chickensh*t." Considering General Petraeus's demonstrated bona fides in the strategic brilliance department, you have to wonder what was really going on backstage."
Posted by: Terry at March 11, 2008 06:20 PM (d/RyS)
2
Abraham Lincoln would likely have responded to the alleged Fallon quote about Petraeus much as he did when Ulysses S. Grant was accused of being a drunken lout:
"I don't care if Petraeus is an a**-kissing little chickensh*t. I can't spare this man--he fights!"
Posted by: MarkJ at March 11, 2008 08:41 PM (IKzfP)
3
"'If, in the dying light of the Bush administration, we go to war with Iran, it'll all come down to one man. If we do not go to war with Iran, it'll come down to the same man."
Funny, I thought Congress was the only part of the government that had the ability to declare war. Apparently this journalist thinks that power has been vested in one man.
On the other hand, it could be argued that we are already in a state of war with Iran. Qods forces, official agents of a hostile nation, have attacked and killed US troops. This can be considered an act of war. Since the Supreme Court refuses to adjudicate a formal interpretation of the War Powers clause, we see precedent for both broad and narrow interpretations (see Tripoli, Lincoln's Southern Blockade, and Vietnam).
Posted by: Dan Irving at March 12, 2008 06:49 AM (Kw4jM)
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See video: Why Fallon's Resignation is Frightening Defense Secretary Robert Gates did not have to accept Admiral Fallon's resignation. "The military people think basically that Admiral Fallon was PUSHED OUT" - Mark Thompson Time Magazine National Security Correspondent
Fallon is described as "the one person in the military or Pentagon standing between the White House and war with Iran."
Posted by: Tom at March 12, 2008 09:58 AM (rou79)
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I have it from a very reliable source that Fallon's exit has nothing to do with his stance on Iran, but due to some other issues.
Burnett's article in Esquire may have been purposeful seppuku on Fallon's part, though I will not elaborate as to why at his time.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at March 12, 2008 10:04 AM (xNV2a)
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Wow, Barnett - based on this small excerpt, sounds every bit as silly and lightweight as my previous limited exposure to him indicated. He did an interview on a radio show and said the most absurd things about Iraq and Iran - pure, Beltway, NYT-level, lightweight, indefensible nonsense. Everything based on the implicit bizarro-world premise that AVOIDING military action is the stragegic objective - not any actual objective like preventing a nuclear Iran, coercing adversaries, etc. How do people like this get books published, much less hired by DOD to do anything substantive? Astonishing, discouraging, and completely routine, I guess.
Posted by: MNF-I REMF at March 12, 2008 01:01 PM (m+IQT)
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We are, in a word, screwed. The likelihood of any country staging a conventional of guerrilla nuclear attack on the US is slim, at best. Even if Iran developed the know-how to create a nuclear weapon THEY HAVE NO DELIVERY SYSTEM. What are they going to do; have the Iranian shotput champion hurl it at us? And transporting a fissile nuclear material or a completed suitcase nuke is much, much harder than Tom Clancy as led you to believe. To risk a broader (and more catastrophic) conflict in the Middle East than already exists in the nightmare we have created in Iraq to alleviate this "risk" is, well, in word, stupid. The soldier you want fighting at your side is the one who knows when not to fight. If we strike Iran the US death toll in Iraq will double in less than a year! Mark my words. The tacit, secret assistance the Iranians are giving the Iraqi insurgency could become, in their eyes, defensible and as such their support for the Iraqi insurgency would become overt. Money, weapons, training and men to fight would pour over the boarder. Add to that the fact that almost every ally we have that still has troops committed would likely began planning their withdrawl. This is about saving the dollar and oil. What do all Iraq, Venezuela and Iran all have in common? They all have oil and they have threatened to or already begun trading their oil against the Euro and not the dollar. And when that happens our recession kicks into over drive. So we have corrupt wall street bankers destroying the credit base of US citizens, reclaiming\foreclosing on millions of homes and sending jobs over seas. Attacking Iran is not going to do any good.
Posted by: ThePatriot at March 16, 2008 10:08 PM (xyUwh)
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How Long?
As you probably well know by now, New York Gov. Eliot Spitzer has been caught in an investigation linking him to a high-priced prostitution ring as a client.
ABC News is reporting the interesting detail that it wasn't an investigation of the prostitution ring that led to Spitzer's downfall, but his shifting of funds that led to his bank calling in authorities for what they thought was the possible hiding of bribes:
The federal investigation of a New York prostitution ring was triggered by Gov. Eliot Spitzer's suspicious money transfers, initially leading agents to believe Spitzer was hiding bribes, according to federal officials.
It was only months later that the IRS and the FBI determined that Spitzer wasn't hiding bribes but payments to a company called QAT, what prosecutors say is a prostitution operation operating under the name of the Emperors Club.
So it appears that Spitzer's bank called in the IRS over what it thought was money laundering (if I understand the account correctly, and I may not), and the IRS contacted the Justice Department, which tagged the FBI's Public Corruption Squad to run with the case.
This seems a pretty straightforward and logical sequence from my layman's perspective on how Justice might end up involved in the case. Bagging a governor for corruption—which apparently is what they thought they had at the beginning—seems to be a logical application of the FBI's Public Corruption Squad.
That the case turned out to be about prostitution instead of bribery seems to be a bit of a letdown, as noted by
David Kurtz at
TPM, who called it "anti-climactic."
Refer back to the ABC News story and you'll note that, "It was only months" into the investigation that the investigators were able to determine that Spitzer's money shifting was about covering up payments to the prostitution ring, and not hiding bribes. This brings up a logical series of questions that I've not seen many people asking yet.
- How long had Eliot Spitzer been procuring high-end prostitutes from the Emperors Club before his financial activity was deemed suspicious?
- Is his interest in the client side of prostitution a recent development, or is it part of an on-going pattern of behavior? If part of a on-going pattern of behavior, how long has Spitzer been using prostitution services, and has he patronized other services in addition to the Emperors Club?
- How was Spitzer introduced to the Emperors Club? Did he find the service on his own, or was he referred? If referred by others, is there the possibility that more politicians or business associates may be exposed in his wake?
These are some of the questions that come to my mind about this developing story, and it will be interesting to see if any information along these lines comes out as the scandal continues.
Update: Six years? Allah's got the roundup.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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1
"...Spitzer has been caught in an investigation..."
I read elsewhere that he didn't get caught, as much as he triggered...
Posted by: Larry Sheldon at March 11, 2008 09:38 AM (hwbYj)
2
"--These are some of the questions that come to my mind about this developing story, and it will be interesting to see if any information along these lines comes out as the scandal continues.--"
I doubt Spitzer is going to out any of his business associates or political allies. The prosecution would have to cut him a deal to get that sort of info, and they typically only give deals like that to small fry for catching bigger fish. Not much bigger fish in the sea than a Governor of New York.
As for the second question, why do you care? If this was a one-time affair does that make the prostitution more ok than if he'd been a repeat offender? Kinda like asking the question, "If Eliot Spitzer got a speeding ticket, how many times has he broken the speed limit before?!" Odds are, if he's been caught hooking up with a prostitute once, he's not a complete stranger to the sex-for-money game. Needle in a haystack and all that. But ultimately, I'd be more concerned with political ramifications - were sexual favors ever traded for political opportunities? Have any of the Emperor's Club VIP escorts been offered special privileges or benefits by the governor's office? He was a former DA. Was the Club being deliberately ignored by his office? Was any other club or organization given similar benefits?
Ultimately, I'm just relieved that the DoJ is busting people for actual crimes, rather than pulling another Don Seigelman and throwing innocent people in jail.
Posted by: Zifnab at March 11, 2008 10:12 AM (Usaah)
3
I am still trying to care about this development. "Politician hires prostitutes....story at 11".
As much as I think Spitzer's politics are completely wrong-headed and how many of his lawsuits while AG were self-promoting garbage, I just cannot get myself to care about his hiring prostitutes. And that he will resign as governor for something like that seems really weird.
Posted by: iconoclast at March 11, 2008 10:12 AM (TzLpv)
4
Ultimately, I'm just relieved that the DoJ is busting people for actual crimes, rather than pulling another Don Seigelman[sic] and throwing innocent people in jail.
The way I recall it going down, it was a jury of his peers that found him guilty of one count of bribery, one count of conspiracy to commit honest services mail fraud, four counts of honest services mail fraud and one count of obstruction of justice, not the DoJ.
There may be some bias in his prosecution--I haven't followed the case in any detail--but like Spitzer, the prosecution had to have something to hang even a biased prosecution on, and a half million dollars in campaign contributions arranged by Scrushy--which I've never heard explained away by Siegelman supporters--certainly seemed to fit the bill.
Of are yo going to claim Siegelman is a completely innocent political prisoner?
I'd find such an argument quite interesting.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at March 11, 2008 10:26 AM (xNV2a)
5
Really? It's weird to place himself in a position where he could be blackmailed and expected to resign? It's weird that Spitzer of all people who prosecuted two similar prostitution rings in 2004 and sent people to jail for it having been caught in bed literlly with people doing what he prosecuted people for four years ago might be expected to resign? How is that weird?
Posted by: ldspossecomitatus at March 11, 2008 10:28 AM (KPKHY)
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Beautiful. The Scott Horton fans are still here.
Horton put out a fantasy piece on Spitzer yesterday speculating that this was a Bush Administration inspired trap. Apparently those Tove mind control rays work so well that they convinced Spitzer to mail wads of cash to a pimp, take a train to Washington and then have prearranged sex and pay more cash to a prostitute there. Those rays have been getting better and better since Katrina hit off target. Horton's post proves again that he is a hack who does not think before he posts. He's got nothing on this except what is in his mind, BDS, and the same for Seigelman.
Posted by: daleyrocks at March 11, 2008 10:32 AM (0pZel)
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On the one hand, this couldn't have happened to a more deserving individual. But on the other hand, I don't particularly think that either of the things listed, Mann Act violations or "structuring", should be Federal crimes. Mann Act? It's at least constitutional, with a connection to interstate commerce. Structuring? Not so much.
Posted by: Skip at March 11, 2008 11:58 AM (G2eJS)
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Ahh yes, there it is, "IT'S NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS, IT'S JUST PROSTITUTION!"
In the liberal world, this is not a crime, it's a resume builder!
Posted by: Conservative CBU at March 11, 2008 01:11 PM (La7YV)
9
What will Hillary say now? Remember,she is the one to trust to answer the phone at 3:00A.M. This happened in her state during her watch,supper delegate in all. Her silence renders her ad useless and conveys the coward that she is.
Posted by: mike191 at March 11, 2008 04:42 PM (Kcqbi)
10
I neither support Spitzer nor his activities, however.... Are we talking about his own money here? And how much money was it that triggered the bank's investigation? Even once a week with a pro at those rates is probably less than $10k a month. Do you want the bank investigating you for moving your own money around? I, for one, am uncomfortable with the way he was caught.
Posted by: Christy at March 11, 2008 05:44 PM (wGlDt)
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Of are yo going to claim Siegelman is a completely innocent political prisoner?
I'd find such an argument quite interesting.
You really don't have to Google far to discover the details of the case. But I'll happily give you the basic rundown.
* First, there is the conviction itself:
Mr. Siegelman was convicted of appointing the businessman Richard Scrushy to a state hospital board in exchange for a contribution to a campaign for a state lottery to fund education. Elected officials, from the president down, appoint people who contribute directly to their campaigns without facing criminal charges.
* Then there were the convictions that didn't stick:
http://www.montgomeryadvertiser.com/specialreports/siegelman/storyV5SIEGELMAN04W.htm
Repeated attempts to prosecute the case fail after three judges recuse themselves or decline to hear the case. District Judge Clemon, who finally hears the case, throws out a number of charges, and before long the entire case is dropped when most of the prosecutors' evidence is ruled inadmissible.
* Siegelman is aquitted of 25 more counts against himself, and - after the jury deadlocks twice, amid allegations of jury-tampering - he his found guilty on 7 counts.
So, he got nailed on seven counts. Rocky, but he was stuck. If the charges are so shaky, surely he can appeal and have this whole matter cleared up, right?
Well, to appeal you need a transcript. Producing a transcript is the job of the judge (and his office), and said transcript has not been forthcoming in the months since the trial.
http://www.harpers.org/archive/2007/11/hbc-90001637
Why the hold-up? The judge - one Judge Mark Fuller - a political ally of the sitting Alabama Governor, has not gotten around to processing the paperwork. Meanwhile, Seigelman has been denied bail and repeatedly moved from Georgia to Texas to Louisiana, while investigations move forward into the various dealings behind the case.
And the case is like a who's who of GOP corruption. You've got Karl Rove and Alberto Gonzales with their hands in the investigation. Jack Abramoff and Ralph Reed bankrolled the sitting governor - Bob Riley - on his gubernatorial bid. Riley's press secretary, btw, worked for a stint as a fundraiser for Tom DeLay. USAs Leula Canary and Alice Martin, a pair of Bush appointed attorneys picked by Karl Rove - helped push the federal investigations as far back as 2002.
http://rawstory.com/news/2007/timeline_don_siegelman_1126.htm
The whole case absolutely reeks of political corruption.
Posted by: Zifnab at March 11, 2008 06:09 PM (Usaah)
12
Zifnab, what part of "jury of his peers" do you not comprehend?
The man was convicted by 12 men and women, not by a secret cabal led by Karl Rove.
As soon as you get that simple fact through the block of stone you laughingly call a head, we can discuss things like intelligent beings.
Posted by: C-C-G at March 11, 2008 06:38 PM (XoKp7)
13
Zifnab - I've got a hint for you to stay a happier person. Don't believe everything Scott Horton writes.
Posted by: daleyrocks at March 11, 2008 07:52 PM (0pZel)
14
"--Zifnab, what part of "jury of his peers" do you not comprehend?
The man was convicted by 12 men and women, not by a secret cabal led by Karl Rove.--"
Fourty-four state attorneys general would disagree.
http://blog.al.com/breaking/2007/07/former_attorneys_general_reque.html
"Zifnab - I've got a hint for you to stay a happier person. Don't believe everything Scott Horton writes."
This was covered in multiple papers, both local and national. Crazy as it sounds, Scott Horton was not the only reporter who noticed.
But please read up on the case before you plug your ears and start chanting "Jury of peers! Jury of peers!" I might be tempted to chant back "No underlying crime!"
Posted by: Zifnab at March 12, 2008 08:55 AM (Usaah)
15
Zifnab - Exactly how much do you think the Attorneys General of those other states really know about the case before signing that letter?
Why don't you chew on this article to relieve your conspiracy needs for a while:
http://blog.al.com/bn/2007/07/middle_district_of_alabamas_re.html
Posted by: daleyrocks at March 12, 2008 09:32 AM (0pZel)
16
Don't worry, Zifnab, I've already figured out that you are so disconnected from objective reality that you're only good as a cat-toy.
Therefore, I will no longer even attempt a reasonable debate with you, but will merely snark and snipe at you.
And remember, you asked for it!
Posted by: C-C-G at March 12, 2008 06:46 PM (XoKp7)
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March 10, 2008
Spitzer Swallows
This going to be a huge blow his political career.
Gov. Eliot Spitzer has informed his most senior administration officials that he had been involved in a prostitution ring, an administration official said this morning.
Mr. Spitzer, who was huddled with his top aides inside his Fifth Avenue apartment early this afternoon, had hours earlier abruptly canceled his scheduled public events for the day. He scheduled an announcement for 2:15 after inquiries from the Times.
Mr. Spitzer, a first term Democrat who pledged to bring ethics reform an end the often seamy ways of Albany, is married with three children.
All snark aside, my thoughts and prayers go out to his daughters—I think they are teenagers—and his wife. The girls going to be humiliated at a particularly sensitive age, and my heart goes out to them for all the snide comments and snickers from their peers in their future. They did nothing wrong, and will have to pay the price of their father's apparent indiscretions, as will their mother.
One would hope Spitzer himself will try to find a way to lessen this impact on their lives, even if that means resigning from office to avoid the prolonged media circus that is sure to envelope the family as this story evolves.
Update: Fox News reports that Spitzer is
is expected to resign, and faces indictment.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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1
'Bout freak'n time. All those Republican scandals, and the Dems were beginning to feel left out. That said, I can't cry too many tears over this guy as he's been a strong backer of the Clintonistas.
One more reason to vote Obama?
Posted by: Zifnab at March 10, 2008 04:29 PM (Usaah)
2
One more reason to throw the Dem crooks out of the senate and house and elect McCain. We need someone to clean up the sleaze in government. We do not need that corrupt bastid Barak "Rezko" Obama or Hillary "Whitewater" Clintoon. Sick.
Posted by: Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr at March 10, 2008 04:45 PM (gkobM)
3
Resign?? Face indictment? But he can't - Party Loyalty comes first! Allegations like this aren't even sufficient to dislodge a San Frandisco supervisor.
Posted by: DirtCrashr at March 10, 2008 05:18 PM (VNM5w)
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Just wait. She'll turn out to be an illegal immigrant and he'll claim he was doing research.
Posted by: daleyrocks at March 10, 2008 06:22 PM (0pZel)
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CY, that is an image I didn't need (your title).
Posted by: David at March 10, 2008 06:37 PM (cPLO6)
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Good on you CY for not getting carried away with the schadenfreude. At the end of the day, it's still a US governor being bad, and it reflects badly on my country. We should punish it within the law, and be done with it. I haven't yet seen Democrats rally around him, holding up his behavior as their beacon of virtue. Maybe I should swing by the ABC comments to see what they say.
Posted by: brando at March 10, 2008 06:45 PM (rDQC9)
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He should resign and des ign a life consistent with a libertarian pursuit of his personal erotic freedom.
Posted by: chris lee at March 10, 2008 07:06 PM (qTV/d)
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Feel sorry for the chidren ok but don't waste sympathy on the poor little pathetic little wife; she chooses to stay with him because she wants the power prestige and office just as much as he does. Personally, I would kick him you know where and head for divorce court.
Posted by: max at March 10, 2008 07:08 PM (Eb+5u)
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Huge Blow? In the sense of "hurt"? I think not--he is a Democrat.
His wife will "run" for President, quoting all the valuable experience she has.
Posted by: Larry Sheldon at March 10, 2008 07:53 PM (hwbYj)
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I just got back from the ABC's comments on the story. I stand corrected. Liberals are solidly behind this behavior. I have no sympathy for 'em.
Posted by: brando at March 10, 2008 08:16 PM (rDQC9)
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uhh-yes.. ALL liberals are behind this hypocrite, rrrriiight. Politics is about "seemliness" not "truth"...
Posted by: chris lee at March 10, 2008 08:22 PM (qTV/d)
12
But it's just sex, and it's a personal matter right?
Posted by: Conservative CBU at March 10, 2008 08:29 PM (La7YV)
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Times change; people don't. Since the days of the ancient Greeks, whenever the powerful engage in hubris (excessive pride), they invariably do themselves in. Sad indeed, but history is replete with examples of those who refuse to learn from history.
Posted by: Mike at March 10, 2008 09:05 PM (SUmgE)
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No it's NOT just a personal matter. Last time I looked prostitution and patronage of p rostitutes was a crime. People are doing time for that. So should he.
Posted by: chris lee at March 11, 2008 05:47 AM (qTV/d)
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I'll be durned. For once I agree with Chris. Politicians are not above the law, Spitzer needs to be prosecuted just like anyone else arrested for this.
Posted by: C-C-G at March 11, 2008 07:48 AM (XoKp7)
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Transporting the woman across state lines is a federal crime. Mailing the cash across state lines is a crime. Spitzer knows this.
Posted by: Pablo at March 11, 2008 08:06 AM (903Bp)
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Chris is just trying to say that the exception proves the rule. He desprately wants to show that not ALL liberals condone this. He may or may not actually believe it.
Posted by: brando at March 11, 2008 08:29 AM (qzOby)
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Brando..well said, that MUST be exactly what I meant.
Posted by: chris lee at March 11, 2008 09:22 AM (6x0Nb)
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Last time I looked prostitution and patronage of p rostitutes was a crime. People are doing time for that.
Pimps are doing time for that, the Johns get a fine and probation. The only time I've ever heard of a john going to jail, it was because they didn't pay the fine.
Posted by: rosignol at March 11, 2008 11:21 AM (A9g2a)
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was 4k an hour or 1k for each of 4hrs? I hear conflicting reports.
Posted by: chris lee at March 11, 2008 12:17 PM (6x0Nb)
21
He might be, Brando, but I'd rather be generous in giving him the benefit of the doubt.
Of course, if he is playing games, he's probably gonna be exposed sooner or later.
Posted by: C-C-G at March 11, 2008 07:44 PM (XoKp7)
22
It just goes to show you that the framers were right in believing that government is a necessary evil in a free society. It's all about seemliness, Democrat and Republican. They MUST play to the mediocre and banal middle until their "act" is betrayed by the returned of their repressed humanity. How many times will we be treated to "hymietowns", bathroom footsie, splooged blue dresses, ex-boyfriend's runover (Laura Bush), cash in a freezer, drowned party-girls (Kennedy), bloated military budgets, and so on until we abandon the illusion and hypocrisy of thinking the emperor is WEARING clothes?
Posted by: chris lee at March 11, 2008 10:45 PM (qTV/d)
23
If you think Chris is right then check out the ABC comments or other liberal websites. The liberal trend on the Spitzer topic is that it is:
1. a warrentless wiretap and that Bush should be put to death. (they actually believe this)
2. Bush did it by invading Iraq. (they actually believe this)
3. Rebublicans baited him, so really they did it. (they actually believe this)
4. It's society fault. (they actually believe this)
5. It's not a big deal, so let's just brush it under the carpet, and attack anyone that thinks it's a crime. (they actually believe this)
It should be 0% that think this way, but it's the solid trend. If you noticed that Chris emphasized the word "ALL" to deny this. Anyone who's taken a basic logic course knows that he's using the Argument of the Beard.
It's goofy.
That's like saying that the KKK isn't a racist organization because not every single one is racist. Or when a cigerette company shows someone in their 90's that has smoked for life, and they say it's proof that cigerettes aren't deadly.
The exception doesn't prove the rule.
The bottom line is that Spitzer made his choices, and it wasn't caused by Bush, Cheney, UFOs, or 911 hoaxes. That's what I think, but that's just me. I don't see why such a noble and reasonable statement should be argued against.
Posted by: brando at March 13, 2008 09:27 AM (qzOby)
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Well it's just a self-serving statement on your part of they are "wrong we are right". This has nothing to do with liberal/ conservative. Anyone can see that this guy was a hypocrit and got his come uppance. We have seen this kind of thing with Democratic and Republican politicians.
Posted by: chris lee at March 13, 2008 02:51 PM (6x0Nb)
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Noooo. It's "They are wrong, I am right."
You're right about it not being about lib/con though. It's about good/evil.
It's not self-serving. There's nothing wrong with being noble.
Posted by: brando at March 13, 2008 05:38 PM (qzOby)
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A View of "Fair Use"
Recently, Brian Ledbetter's photojournalism criticism blog Snapped Shot came under fire from the Associated Press for allegedly infringing on AP's copyrights, causing Ledbetter to take his site offline.
Snapped Shot came back online several days later,
sans images, with many bloggers only a little less confused about what constitutes the "fair use" of agency images.
I sent a request to AP Director of Media Relations Paul Colford this past Friday for a statement clarifying their view of what constitutes fair use, and the Associated Press provided the following response via email:
AP licenses its works (photos, news stories, video and so on) to newspapers, Web sites and broadcasters for the purpose of showing news events and to illustrate news stories or commentary on the news events.
If the entirety of the work is used (such as when a whole photo is reproduced), that is considered a substantial "taking" under fair use law. If there are many photos used, that is a substantial taking of AP's photo library.
In the case of criticism, the commentary or criticism has to be about the protected work, not commentary or criticism in general – not using, as in the case of Snappedshot.com, protected photos to illustrate something on which the blogger was commenting. One cannot post a copyrighted photo of President Bush to illustrate commentary criticizing the policies of his administration, for example.
Fair use does not give others the right to use AP content without paying for it, especially when the costs -- and risks -- of gathering news around the world continue to rise. As a result, the AP has been increasingly vigilant in protecting its intellectual property.
I agree unreservedly with the Associated Press that using an image merely for purposes of illustration is outside of fair use, and will seek to go through my 2,700+ post archive and remove images that violate this of my own accord in coming weeks.
According to the AP's response posted above, however, it does appear—and tell me if I'm wrong—that it is still acceptable to reproduce images that are the
direct subject of criticism, or as the AP states it "the commentary or criticism has to be about the protected work."
In other words, the
context of the blog post the image is presented in matters.
For example, merely posting the below Reuters image of their press vehicle hit by Israeli fire in 2006 in a general blog entry about media casualties in war would be unacceptable under "fair use" guidelines.

If, however, the photo in question is the
subject of criticism, then you have a case of "fair use."
Hopefully, this clears things up.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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1
Thanks for getting that pretty unequivocal statement from the AP, CY. Your interpretation of "fair use" jives completely with what my handful of private IP experts have been telling me, and that's precisely why I've ended up doing things exactly the way I have. (Y'all are welcome to e-mail me—remove the dashes from the URL—if you want any specifics, of course...)
I'm currently in the process of going through and reviewing my archive, separating the photo-criticism from the general tomfoolery in my content as a result of the AP's warning, which is a long and painstaking (remove the dashes from the URL) task, but one that will hopefully allow me to bring back most (if not all) of the AP content that I've found specific problems with.
I can't recommend enough that all bloggers need to read Gabriel Malor's excellent explanation of "Fair Use" in the blogosphere—While nothing's guaranteed to keep us out of the courtroom, following his advice would certainly help towards that end.
Most Respectfully,
Brian
Posted by: Brian L. at March 10, 2008 12:05 PM (GzvlQ)
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As an aside, there are still ways of having fun with the wire services that don't involve raising the ire of the wire service lawyers, at the expense of anyone browsing Snapped Shot a month or so from now. It's worth it for me, so long as the aforementioned lawyers remain happy.
Regards,
Brian
Posted by: Brian L. at March 10, 2008 12:11 PM (GzvlQ)
3
It still doesn't clear it up for me, dummy that I am. Most photos are used to illustrate/enhance a linked story and are not used to write a story about the photo itself. A photo helps put the content of a story in context, but that would seem to be a violation. Right? Wrong? Huh?
I said this in regard to Gabriel's explanation and I'll say it here, the copyright laws are terribly arcane and need to be updated to cover electronic publishing and blogs who give full credit and links to the originals. I was called a bad parent and a thief for voicing that opinion, so I take a risk repeating it here.
Posted by: Sara at March 10, 2008 01:58 PM (Wi/N0)
4
Sara,
The basic problem is this: The wire services don't actually "publish" any of the photographs that you see out on the internet. As a result, these photographs remain the private, copyrighted property of the wire service that created it. The way that websites "legally" obtain the rights to "publish" these photographs, is to obtain a license from one or more of the wire services that provide photographic services.
(It's essentially the same process that newspapers have to go through in order to run wire photos, except the fees are a *lot* higher for our dead-tree friends.)
I was going to go through and write up an example of what it would take to legally license AFP photos from Getty Images as a followup to Gabe's article, but I gave up once I saw the costs involved.
For example, to legally license a 300-pixel-wide photograph for a duration of two years would cost $495 per picture; a lower-resolution 198-pixel-wide photograph could be licensed for a maximum of 2 months at $49.
This would add up pretty quickly if you were to do so for each individual photograph (and recall, I'm only using AFP price quotes here), so there is a way to license the "entire" wire service feed for your website. This comes at the low, low rate of $60,000 per year, give or take a few ten-grand or so.
These fees are obviously too high for hobbyist bloggers to pay.
So what's the solution?
Well, until the wire services decide to join the 21st century, and come up with a low-cost way for individuals to syndicate their legally-protected content, the only solution you have is to not use wire photos.
I'd personally love to see someone (if you're a big-pocket investor out there looking for a project, I'm speaking directly to you right now) sit down with the wire service lawyers and hammer out a way by which a third party could offer syndicated access to wire service photos, at a hobbyist price point.
Anyway, I can't stress enough from my recent experience—If you don't know if you have the right to use a photograph or not (see the letter from the AP above for a general guideline), it's safer to not use it. That's definitely going to be my modus operandi going forward...
Regards,
Brian
Posted by: Brian L. at March 10, 2008 02:15 PM (GzvlQ)
5
By the way, photographers are not exactly happy with the current status quo of the industry, either. Someone with really deep pockets might just figure out a way to "poach" some good photojournalists from some of the existing wire services, and come up with a much more efficient direct-to-market photo syndication service, if someone with really deep pockets were so inclined.
Again, with my warmest regards to all of you out there who have said deep pockets.
Regards,
Brian
Posted by: Brian L. at March 10, 2008 02:17 PM (GzvlQ)
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http://www.copyright.gov/fls/fl102.html
http://www.copyright.gov/title17/92chap1.html#107
17 USC 107 - 118, fyi, are the Fair Use provisions of the Copyright Act. A good attorney could turn the AP into a pretzel over this.
Section 107: Fair Use
Notwithstanding the provisions of sections 106 and 106A, the fair use of a copyrighted work, including such use by reproduction in copies or phonorecords or by any other means specified by that section, for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright. In determining whether the use made of a work in any particular case is a fair use the factors to be considered shall include —
(1) the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes;
(2) the nature of the copyrighted work;
(3) the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and
(4) the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work.
The fact that a work is unpublished shall not itself bar a finding of fair use if such finding is made upon consideration of all the above factors.
Posted by: Steffan at March 10, 2008 02:21 PM (hDY55)
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See this is why it is so confusing to us little guys/gals. Read what Steffan posted and it seems that covers the use of a single photo to accompany a blog post regarding the subject the photo documents. But, it also seems in direct contravention of what the AP writes above.
Posted by: Sara at March 10, 2008 02:38 PM (Wi/N0)
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Notice that Section 107 does not convey you the right to use the photograph for "illustrative" purposes?
That's what the AP is specifically selling a license to do, it's not something that "fair use" allows, except under an extremely limited set of circumstances (criticism of the work, parody, and "educational" -- as in "classroom" -- use).
The court's interpretation of "news reporting," by the way, is strictly limited to the reproduction of copyrighted works in the process of recording the news. I.e., an AP photograph that has a copyrighted object in it would fall under this category. The AP photograph itself does not. Which provides no exemption to independent bloggers, as we don't generate a whole lot of "original" photographic content.
"Comment" is an interesting item—and perhaps I could have skated on that, as I was merely reproducing their works for "commentary" purposes—but again, this would have to be done in the venue of a court of law. With a high probability of epic failure.
Yeesh.
The law is definitely not clear on this, and as nearly everyone that has written to me has said, the interpretation of "fair use" is something that individual judges are likely to interpret differently.
At the cost of full legal proceedings, of course.
"Criticism" is something that definitely provides "fair use" protection to the blogger, so if you're like me, and you enjoy finding flaws, mistakes, and misrepresentations in wire photographs, there's definitely some wiggle room there.
"Parody" is something that is commonly cited as a "fair use" of copyrighted work; the law is less clear on "satire." (And I can't personally tell the distinction between the two...)
As always, taking a "conservative" approach is a prudent thing to do. And the next time someone hassles you, be sure to ping your nearest internet superhero.
Regards,
Brian
Posted by: Brian L. at March 10, 2008 02:53 PM (GzvlQ)
9
It is interesting to note what and why the copyright laws came to be in the US and what has become of them today. I fully understand and concur that producers of IP should reap the rewards, but I also know that control of IP initially was limited in time. This limiting of control of IP was to quickly add IP to the Public Domain so that new inventions and ideas could take place quickly in a new government.
Posted by: Mekan at March 10, 2008 04:32 PM (hm8tW)
10
There's another element of AP's position that hasn't been discussed. The question is, what is a "substantial" reproduction of the work for the purposes of the fair-use defense to copyright infringement. AP says that reproducing a complete photograph is "substantial" in relation to their copyright on that photograph, which I think is evidently correct. But what if a site (like Snapped Shot) reproduces many photographs and has a fair-use defense in each individual case? AP's response is that this would be "a substantial taking of AP's photo library". In other words, they claim copyright in their library as a whole as well as the photographs which compose it. And from my knowledge of case law, they have some basis for this. So if you reproduce a whole lot of photographs, even a whole lot of results from a particular search (everything tagged as "insurgent", for example) you have arguably infringed their copyright in their collection, and you had better be able to provide a fair-use defense for using their copyrighted collection as well as your defense on each photograph used.
Posted by: Joe in Australia at March 10, 2008 07:13 PM (fKxiV)
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Seems to be that illustrating their propensity for accepting enemy propaganda on face value in order to comment on and criticize the AP itself for editorial malfeasance would constitute fair use.
However, IANAL, and I'm no more than a kibitzer in this.
Posted by: Steffan at March 10, 2008 10:52 PM (Kijs8)
12
Incidentally, I was just checking out the Thomas database at the Library of Congress, and happened upon some historical and revision notes comprising House Report 94-1475 on the subject:
17 USC 107
(scroll 'way down)
Money quote: When a copyrighted work contains unfair, inaccurate, or derogatory information concerning an individual or institution, the individual or institution may copy and reproduce such parts of the work as are necessary to permit understandable comment on the statements made in the work.
Think that might include friends and allies of either the State of Israel or the US? If so, AP is SOL.
Incidentally, I had to change the link because for some reason "h****e.gov" is considered questionable content. Gee, I wonder why?
Posted by: Steffan at March 10, 2008 11:45 PM (Kijs8)
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Antichrist Superstar
Nicholas D. Kristof published an op-ed in yesterday's New York Times that insinuates that preferring another candidate to Barack Obama is a sign of bigotry.
Subtle.
...the most monstrous bigotry in this election isn't about either race or sex. It's about religion.
The whispering campaigns allege that Mr. Obama is a secret Muslim planning to impose Islamic law on the country. Incredibly, he is even accused — in earnest! — of being the Antichrist.
Proponents of this theory offer detailed theological explanations for why he is the Antichrist, and the proof is that he claims to be Christian — after all, the Antichrist would say that, wouldn't he? The rumors circulate enough that Glenn Beck of CNN asked the Rev. John Hagee, a conservative evangelical, what the odds are that Mr. Obama is the Antichrist.
I'm quite certain that there are some earnest, deluded souls out there that think Obama is indeed the Antichrist, but of course, there are people of questionable intelligence out there that feel the same way about
George W. Bush,
Hillary Clinton, and even
John McCain.
I must have missed Kristof's editorials excoriating these fringe theologists, but he certainly wouldn't single out those that would vote against his preferred candidate to the exclusion of others, would he?
But the "Antichrist" charge isn't at the heart of Kristof's argument, of course. This is:
These charges are fanatical, America's own equivalent of the vicious accusations about Jews that circulate in some Muslim countries. They are less a swipe at one candidate than a calumny against an entire religion. They underscore that for many bigoted Americans in the 21st century, calling someone a Muslim is still a slur.
Fascinating.
Let's set aside for a moment the fact that Barack Obama is not now a Muslim—and never has been—to examine Kristof's basic grasp of reality.
He states, "These charges are fanatical, America's own equivalent of the vicious accusations about Jews that circulate in some Muslim countries."
"Equivalent?" Really?
Perhaps being at the
New York Times he gets a different perspective than most Americans do, but I've somehow missed the
Sesame Street demonization of Muslims in American children's television, where an Amerrican Martyr-Me Elmo tells U.S. toddlers their duty is to kill those of the Islamic faith. Such programming exists in the Middle East, targeting Jews in general and Israeli Jews in particular, along with America. Should I being paying more attention to what my daughter is watching, or are Bob the Bomber ("Can we kill them? Yes we can!"

and Dora the Exploder only constructs of his fevered imagination?
We have not seen calls from mainstream American Christian or political leaders to bomb Muslims communities within our nation, nor have we seen mass celebrations in the streets resulting from the murder of innocent Islamic school children when terrorists target them. Or perhaps when an al Qaeda terrorist blows up a market in Baghdad there are parades in Times Square, and the
Times simply doesn't see such demonstrations as newsworthy. Somehow I find that unlikely, even for the naked, one-sided advocacy journalism now so common at the
Times.
It is a fact that in many Muslim cultures Jews are the target of a blind and irrational hatred, and their popular culture is primed, from birth to death, for xenocide. Somehow, we simply don't see "America's own equivalent," hatred against Muslims outside the editorial bullpen.
Kristof's argument is disingenuous and dishonest, but that doesn't keep him from then equating this false construct to the very real racial bigotry that all of us hope remains confined to America's past. As Kristof's own research shows, "A 2007 Gallup poll found that 94 percent of Americans said they would vote for a black candidate." Hopefully we are beyond a candidate's race being a significant factor in American politics.
It is baffling that Kristof seems to need to stoke fears of another kind of bigotry in order to support his choice of presidential candidates, but that appears to be precisely his motivation.
Perhaps by keeping this demonstrably false claim alive he hopes to distract Americans from focusing on Obama's many real shortcomings, including his record as being the
most liberal Senator in the United States, that he
does not recognize the right of self-defense and advocates banning entire classes of common firearms, that he would raise federal government spending by
$287 billion a year (more than any other candidate), and that even his own campaign acknowledges he is
not ready to lead.
Nicholas D. Kristof would rather accuses Americans of being bigots and put them on the defensive than have them examine the radical doctrinaire liberalism of his preferred candidate.
Kristof hasn't told us anything about ourselves, but he has exposed a lot about how he would shape the views of his fellow Americans.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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1
People have been accusing presidential candidates of being the anti-Christ since Jefferson ran against Adams in 1796.
Lincoln was called an atheist, as was Wm. Howard Taft (a Unitarian). I was once told in 1980 that Ronald Wilson Reagan might be the anti-Christ because there are six letters in each of his names: "666." These guys were all Republicans!
The NYT writer appears "shocked, shocked" that this happening to Obama. Apparently he hasn't read enough diatribes from past centuries.
Posted by: Tertium Quid at March 10, 2008 10:42 AM (HqqaH)
2
Kristof just hopes that the old race card can be converted into a religion card. So by accusing people opposed to a lightweight lefty like Barrack Hussein Obama of bigotry, maybe some number will vote for him to assuage their conscience/prove that they are not bigots.
For me, even if his failed ideology, sesame street foreign policy, and cheap emotionalism weren't enough, his muslim past during a war with Islam is more than sufficient to vote against him.
Posted by: iconoclast at March 10, 2008 11:21 AM (TzLpv)
3
Of course we are all bigoted in one way or another. I don't care about race or gender when it comes to the presidency, but I do care about character and associations. Yes, I admit it, I am bigoted about Barack "Middle Name that Cannot Be Mentioned" Obama. I'm bigoted because he is a lightweight, because his politics are way way out there, because he is so totally naive about national security, not to mention the economy. But most of all I'm bigoted because he is a Democrat and I've never been one to suffer fools gladly.
Posted by: Sara at March 10, 2008 11:53 AM (Wi/N0)
4
I agree that it is inappropriate to falsely claim that Obama is a Muslim, although I don’t believe that being a Muslim in and of itself should be anything about which someone should be ashamed. I do think, however, it is important for America to better understand the kind of “Christianity” which has so fascinated Obama for the last 20 years. Obama claims to belong to a Christian Church called Trinity United Church. He considers the just-retired pastor, Rev. Jeremiah Wright, to be his “mentor and spiritual advisor.” According to the church’s website, their members are “unashamedly Black and unashamedly Christian,” and swear allegiance to the mother continent, Africa. Obama’s church gave the racist and Jew-hating Louis Farrakhan a “lifetime achievement award” last November. Rev. Wright teaches Black Theology, and thinks about everything pretty much in terms of black versus white. He called 9/11, for example, a “wake-up call to white people.” Commenting on the recent murder of Natalie Holloway, he decried the press coverage by stating that “one 18—year-old white girl from Alabama gets drunk on a graduation trip to Aruba, goes off and gives it up while in a foreign country, and that stays in the news for months.” Rev. Wright likes to throw around the name of James Cone a lot when it comes to his theology. James Cone is another proponent of Black Theology. Here are just a couple of James Cone's quotes: (1) "To be Christian is to be one of those whom God has chosen. God has chosen black people." [Black Theology and Black Power, pp. 139-140]. (2) "While it is true that blacks do hate whites, black hatred is not racism." [Black Theology and Black Power, p. 15] (3) "All white men are responsible for white oppression." [Black Theology and Black Power, p. 24] (4) "Theologically, Malcolm X was not far wrong when he called the white man "the devil." [Black Theology and Black Power, p. 40] (5) "If there is any contemporary meaning of the Antichrist, the white church seems to be a manifestation of it." [Black Theology and Black Power, p. 73] **** Need I go on? These are the kinds of concepts that Obama has been soaking up for 20 years. The focal concern or center of black theology is the white oppression of blacks. Therefore, the usual theological discussions about God, Christ, and salvation are much less relevant. Although I respect anyone’s right to belong to any religion they wish, this does not sound like a positive form of "Christianity" for any of those who are not members of the "chosen people." And, maybe Obama needs to be a little more candid about the brand of "Christianity" to which he adheres.
Posted by: Fred at March 10, 2008 12:44 PM (d97CI)
5
"Incredibly, he is even accused — in earnest! — of being the Antichrist."
Kristof's comment may be due, in large part, to a satirical comment made on Glenn Beck's show recently. In fact, Beck said the liberal press would take his words out of context -- even though listening to the segment the satire was abundantly obvious.
Posted by: DP at March 10, 2008 12:56 PM (Ogw1d)
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Quick question.
Obama is ranked as the most liberal Senator in the US according to your little link. Clinton is notched as the 16th most liberal. However, since Obama was elected, only 10 votes separate their voting records.
Now, I'm not calling into question the National Journal's evaluation criteria, however what on earth the National Journal is using for its evaluation criteria?
What's more, how did Barack Obama score higher - in his single term in office - than Edward Kennedy, Barbara Boxer, and John Kerry with their collective century-long terms in the Senate?
One more thing. Before you get all breathless about raising federal spending by $287 billion / year (or 1148 Bridges to Nowhere or 33% of the annual Medicare Plan D Bill or roughly 29 IraqMonths), keep in mind how a good, conservative, Republican President busted the national debt by an extra $4 trillion dollars. I'm not saying Obama would, in any way, piss away money like the current CiC. Only that fiscal responsibility hasn't been a major Republican concern in over 7 years. Kinda late to jump back on that bandwagon now.
Posted by: Zifnab at March 10, 2008 04:42 PM (Usaah)
7
Zifnab,
True however, we are talking about a candidate now not the outgoing President and the Messiah (pbuh) will bust the budget even more where as another candidate MCcain has promised he will veto any bill with earmarks in it and he has a long record to back up that pledge.
Posted by: Oldcrow at March 10, 2008 08:41 PM (WKFIj)
8
Kristoff wrote, as I recall before the 2004 election,that he supported democrats because, as he put it "I want to be read". Like all members of the press he does want to be read, for career security. This piece seems to me all about his "I want to be read" position. It is geared to New York Liberals, the last remaining faithful readers of the Times, and is perhaps premised on the hope Obama will win,thus giving him an ass kissing leg up. If Obama is elected and turns out to be useless, so he, Kristoff, is no longer "read" as much, he will write about something else that is in vogue with who ever is reading the remains of his rag. The Times is approaching the status of the Enquirer anyway, hence the use of terms like antichrist, a term also geared to incite contempt in his secular readers, even if he found it used somewhere in a legitimate quote.
this
Posted by: mytralman at March 10, 2008 09:02 PM (k+clE)
9
"... where as another candidate MCcain has promised he will veto any bill with earmarks in it and he has a long record to back up that pledge."
If by "a long record" you mean "a long voting record", I'm sorry to say that McCain's voting history doesn't back that statement up at all.
Barack isn't taking campaign contributions from PACs or lobbyists. McCain's campaign is run by PACs and lobbyists. The idea that McCain is going to "clean up government" better than Barack is simply laughable.
Posted by: Zifnab at March 11, 2008 10:00 AM (Usaah)
10
Matthew 24 is the seminal chapter in the Bible when speaking of the signs of the coming Apocalypse which it terms the Great Tribulation. And in verse 5, when asked what these signs would be, the Messiah put this at the top of his list:
“Take heed that no man deceive you.
For many shall come in my name saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
23 Then if any man say unto you, Lo here is Christ, or there, believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christ’s, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.”
Posted by: J Meeks at March 13, 2008 11:04 AM (5iJrN)
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March 07, 2008
Obama's Plouffe: Retreat, At Any Cost
On the ABC News blog, Political Radar:
Obama campaign manager David Plouffe disagreed Friday with the suggestion that it would be responsible to leave "a little wiggle room" when establishing the date by which all U.S. combat troops should be out of Iraq.
"He has been and will continue to be crystal clear with the American people that if and when he is elected president, we will be out of Iraq in - as he said, the time frame would be about 16 months at the most where you withdraw troops. There should be no confusion about that with absolute clarity," said Plouffe.
In effect, Plouffe is confirming that no matter what the facts on the ground are in Iraq in January of 2009, Barack Obama, if President, would pull all American combat troops out of Iraq.
He is stating that Obama would continue to pull American combat troops out of Iraq, even if by doing so it would destabilize that nation's security situation and lead to much higher civilian casualties.
He is stating that for Obama, ideological purity and dogmatic conviction will be unswayed by changing circumstances, and states convincingly that these things are more important to him than morality or humanity.
I'm glad he cleared that up.
I'd hate to be led into thinking he was capable of change.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
03:27 PM
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At the highest level that's what Democrats do, especially when they can't otherwise impede the war's funding or get a public timetable for withdrawal.
Posted by: DirtCrashr at March 07, 2008 04:08 PM (VNM5w)
2
You mean leftists are willing to get all kinds of people slaughtered not for some concrete result that will be better at the end but for the sanctity of their ideas?
The hell you say! Go tell it in the Ukraine.
Posted by: Amos at March 07, 2008 04:28 PM (gYsFF)
3
Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe, in order to assure that our female European travelers can be proud they're Americans.
Posted by: Jeffersonian at March 07, 2008 04:34 PM (sdVks)
4
Down at the btoom of the Radar story they note that this is a reversal of Obama's own statement from Feb 11 to CBS News; their link is dead, but this is OK for now:
"At a time when American casualties are down, at a time when the violence is down, particularly affecting the Iraqi population, is that the right time to try and set time tables for withdrawing all American troops? I mean you talked about…the end of 2009," Kroft remarked.
"Yeah, absolutely. I think now is precisely the time. I think that it is very important for us to send a clear signal to the Iraqis that we are not gonna be here permanently. We're not gonna set up permanent bases. That they are going to have to resolve their differences and get their country functioning," Obama said.
"And you pull out according to that time table, regardless of the situation? Even if there’s serious sectarian violence?" Kroft asked.
"No, I always reserve as commander in chief, the right to assess the situation," Obama replied.
So if you thought Obama would approach the situation with an open mind in Jan 2009, well, you had reason to think so. Until today. or maybe next week, when he changes again.
Posted by: Tom Maguire at March 07, 2008 06:10 PM (dEg0I)
5
A strategy like Obama's is perfect for reclaiming America's positon in the world ..
.. unfortuantely it is the position of dunce. This should make us all kinds of friends.
Posted by: Neo at March 07, 2008 09:06 PM (Yozw9)
6
Clinton said we'd only be in Bosnia for 9 months. I'm just saying...
Posted by: Purple Avenger at March 07, 2008 09:56 PM (f2IdK)
7
Obama's plan would not only lead to more casualties, it would lead to the American people being reminded why they can't trust Democrats with the reins of power.
You know that the leftymedia would trumpet Obama's ordered pullout, leaving him the one that would get blamed when--not if--things turned sour.
Posted by: C-C-G at March 07, 2008 10:53 PM (43PDP)
8
Obama and his supporters are tacking their flag to the mast on this rubbish. Bully for them! It is now easier to spot the idiocy and naivete of these "purists". Events have already superceded the illogic of this dogmatic position. A majority of people in this country believe we are and can win in Iraq because we are winning in Iraq.
Further, what will happen by November?
On one hand, you have a man who loves America, has made real sacrifices for her, and has shown real guts in standing up for what he believes is right. On the other hand, you have a vacuus gasbag whose rhetoric is already wearing thin, has never sacrificed anything but his ego and who feels he must apologize for America.
Democrats are not picking McGovern, they're picking Jim Jones. I'll pass on that Kool-aid.
Posted by: wjo at March 08, 2008 12:25 AM (+kTjY)
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They're eager to pull the troops out SPECIFICALLY so there will be a mass-slaughter.
Then they can say "it's all Bush's fault since he started the war".
Really.
I don't have the stomach to troll through left-leaning blogs often, but when I do, that's the sentiment I see.
Democrats aresick, evil people.
Posted by: Sean at March 08, 2008 01:23 AM (R7okG)
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Sick evil? I don't think so. For the most part no. They are just mislead, have no idea what it is like to think for themselves, and can not see past their fat frigging noses.
Posted by: Matt at March 08, 2008 01:50 AM (9V6Vj)
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Didn't Obama also say that he would send them back in if needed? In...out...in...out....
Posted by: Terrye at March 08, 2008 08:14 AM (0RzmS)
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Sean, Matt, you're both right.
The leaders on the left are sick, evil people. However, most of the followers are simply misled.
Posted by: C-C-G at March 08, 2008 10:19 AM (43PDP)
13
"Didn't Obama also say that he would send them back in if needed? In...out...in...out...."
Yeah, he said that were Al-Qaeda to move into Iraq, he would send troops back in to get them.
Well buddy. They are already there.
Posted by: Matt at March 08, 2008 10:32 AM (9V6Vj)
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It doesn't make me any more sympathetic to Obama, but I don't think he really means it. That is, I doubt that his campaign promise as stated and as intended to be understood by his base (a simplism for simpletons), would last very long if it became clear to him, upon taking office, that an accelerate withdrawal would destroy his presidency, and destroy his party for a generation. In that event the 60 MINUTES statement and others would become operative, and the main political issue for him would be what he could get for his base and from the Republicans in exchange for a sane policy.
Part of the problem here is the illusion that war is a yes/no decision, made once and then reviewed on the day or victory or defeat. The deeper problem with Obama and the Democrats isn't whether they would strive to surrender or to stall or to win in Iraq, but that they'd screw up whichever policy they chose. Even if David Petraeus and 30 intelligent advisers ganged up on Pres. Obama and made him see the strategic light for an hour, a day, or a week, sooner or later he'd revert to this new Democratic way of war, which seems to have been borrowed from contemporary Europe.
Posted by: CK MacLeod at March 08, 2008 11:08 AM (8aPVo)
15
Why would a Senator from Chicago IL be willing to support intervention in Afghanistan and Pakistan and even the use of military force to create and defend a Palestinian state but refuse to stabilize Iraqi? If he were anti-war he would oppose all of them. Why just Iraq?
Follow the money.
In a previous post, we discussed Obama fund raiser Tony Rezko and Iraqi middle man Nadhmi Auchi, whose bank BNP laundered oil-for-food money.
The speculation is Saddam pays off politicians by diverting funds from BNP to Auchi's off shore accounts. Auchi lends the money to bagmen (Rezko) who uses it to pay off politicians. Auchi forgives the loan.
Maybe that's why so many politicians suddenly come to be antiwar. Campaign contributions are the lifeblood of politics. Some may come with "requests".
Posted by: arch at March 08, 2008 12:25 PM (tAqbQ)
16
There is a tendency of the post-Fifties Democrats and others to regard the following as a valid position, never having of sarcasm:
Anthony Westell, on December 4, 1942: "Japanese threat? What Japanese threat? They haven't attacked America in almost a year!"
Posted by: teqjack at March 08, 2008 04:50 PM (CEphM)
17
It is not possible to know what Obama would really do about Iraq as president. However, he has intellectual support for immediate withdrawl from his servants at the New York Times who have also approved genocide, should it occur, during retreat. He knows the leftist press will cover for him in the ensuing human disaster by blaming Bush. He further knows that his support is largely from people upon whom he has promised to spend large amounts of money "saved" from war spending. The temptation to get out no matter the long term cost will be intense.
Posted by: mytralman at March 09, 2008 05:20 PM (k+clE)
18
Mytralman, the lefty press also tried to provide cover for John Kerry's misdeeds in Vietnam. Ask President Kerry how well they did.
The leftymedia's ability to shape public opinion is waning, thanks in large part to blogs like this one. It's highly likely that they wouldn't be able to keep Obama from being blamed for the bloodbath if he pulls troops out of Iraq.
Posted by: C-C-G at March 09, 2008 07:02 PM (XoKp7)
19
http://www.angus-reid.com/polls/view/most_americans_want_us_troops_out_of_iraq/
"Many adults in the United States believe their government should implement an exit strategy in Iraq, according to a poll by TNS released by the Washington Post and ABC News. 53 per cent of respondents think the U.S. should withdraw its military forces from Iraq in order to avoid further U.S. military casualties, even if that means civil order is not restored there.
In addition, 61 per cent of respondents believe the war with Iraq was not worth fighting, and 55 per cent think the U.S. is not making significant progress toward restoring civil order in Iraq. "
So, what he is saying is "I will do what the majority of the population want". How desperately undemocratic. Real leaders defy the will of the people.
Posted by: Rafar at March 10, 2008 06:56 AM (ej9g/)
20
Given that your poll is from the people that published Scott Thomas Beauchamp, Rafar, you'll forgive me if I assume that it's fictional.
Posted by: C-C-G at March 10, 2008 08:05 AM (XoKp7)
21
Real leaders lead by doing what they believe is the right thing, not follow polls. If the people don't like it, that's what the next election is for.
Otherwise, we might as well not have a President and just run the executive branch via referendum. That "democratic" enough for you?
...and yes, I do mean "referendum" and not some poll that people like you can parrot in the best "all the cool kids do it" tone.
Posted by: Patrick Chester at March 10, 2008 08:07 AM (uQS5m)
22
"Given that your poll is from the people that published Scott Thomas Beauchamp, Rafar, you'll forgive me if I assume that it's fictional."
It seems to be pretty routine polling from all sources though.
"Real leaders lead by doing what they believe is the right thing, not follow polls. If the people don't like it, that's what the next election is for."
Isn't that the point here? Obama is offering to do what the people seem to want and therefore, if he wins it will be legitimate to do it. By shouting "Look, he is going to run away" you are simply saying "Look, he is going to do what he said he would do, which is one source of his popularity".
What's the point? It seems that people genrally disagree with you on staying in Iraq for the long term.
Posted by: Rafar at March 10, 2008 08:45 AM (ej9g/)
23
61 per cent of respondents believe the war with Iraq was not worth fighting
I bet 61% of the public couldn't point out the territory occupied by Iraq on a sat photo of the middle east that lacked any labels, etc.
If they could, they wouldn't say such stupid stuff.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at March 10, 2008 10:07 AM (f2IdK)
24
The Thunder Run has linked to this post in the - Web Reconnaissance for 03/10/2008 A short recon of what’s out there that might draw your attention, updated throughout the day...so check back often.
Posted by: David M at March 10, 2008 10:30 AM (gIAM9)
25
I think George McGovern ran on this platform in 1972 and lost every state but the People's Republic of Massachusetts. (Even Alf Landon carried his home state against the FDR landslide in 1936.)
Posted by: Tertium Quid at March 10, 2008 10:45 AM (HqqaH)
26
Purple Avenger is an elitist. He feels that only those who are superior Americans should be able to vote. People who can not find Iraq on a sat map only say "stupid things" and their views should not count.
Sorry guy, we all get to vote that is just the way it goes here.
Oh and Arch more people will believe in your elaborate conspiracy theories if you put the name SOROS in someplace.
Posted by: John Ryan at March 10, 2008 02:00 PM (TcoRJ)
27
Rafar wrote:
Isn't that the point here?
No, the point appears to have flown far over your head.
What's the point? It seems that people genrally disagree with you on staying in Iraq for the long term.
So I'm not one of the "cool kids" then?
John Ryan: You are welcome to point out where Purple Avenger said anything in his comment about voting.
Posted by: Patrick Chester at March 10, 2008 03:52 PM (uQS5m)
28
Ugh... preview is my friend.
John Ryan: You are welcome to point out where Purple Avenger said anything about voting in his comment.
. o O (Order of words. Very important.) *sigh*
Posted by: Patrick Chester at March 10, 2008 03:54 PM (uQS5m)
29
"So I'm not one of the "cool kids" then?"
I have no idea what you mean by "cool kids". Is "Cool kids" a synonym for "Majority of the population"?
"I bet 61% of the public couldn't point out the territory occupied by Iraq on a sat photo of the middle east that lacked any labels, etc."
Well, yes, that is one of the fundamental flaws of a democracy. On the other hand, it has been reported that your Commander-In-Chief didn't know the difference between Sunnis and Shiites when he invaded Iraq, so perhaps this gross ignorance stretches even unto the elites.
Posted by: Rafar at March 10, 2008 04:27 PM (LSirq)
30
Well fortunately, we're a Republic and we don't decide things based on newspaper polls, which oddly, enough, don't poll even 1 percent of the population so your attempt to claim that 61% is likely inaccurate. Funny how you omit this part:
Methodology: Telephone interviews with 1,136 American adults, conducted from Dec. 6 to Dec. 9, 2007. Margin of error is 3 per cent.
No further breakdown. Hmm, wonder why? Are you ignorant of how to create a proper link or were you hoping no one would read the whole article if you just pasted the raw URL? Or, were you too eager and stopped at paragraph 3 in your zeal to find yet another oh-so-holy poll to fling at thine enemies?
Let's take a glance and read the part on "polling data" folks: you'll notice something else.
Nice to see how, according to this poll, the percentage of Americans who want us to withdraw forces is going down as of last July.
Gosh, if it goes below fifty percent I guess you'll decide we have to stay? After all, it's The Will of the People to you. Nah, just kidding. I know these polls are nothing more than rhetorical clubs you use to try to get people to stampede to your side. If it goes against you, you'll likely pretend it doesn't exist.
Posted by: Patrick Chester at March 10, 2008 06:51 PM (MKaa5)
31
Ya know, Rafar, I haven't seen any polls on it (I distrust polls, personally), but I bet if you polled people about lowering their taxes, you'd get a huge majority that said yes. Would Obama follow The Holy And Revealed Will Of The People then?
How about if a poll showed that The People wanted a southern border wall to stop the illegal immigrants? That's The Will Of The People, to judge from the outcry against McCain's amnesty bill... would Obama follow that?
Or are you only suggesting that Obama follow the polls that you, personally, agree with? What about The Sainted Voice Of The People then?
Posted by: C-C-G at March 10, 2008 08:04 PM (XoKp7)
32
"Or, were you too eager and stopped at paragraph 3 in your zeal to find yet another oh-so-holy poll™ to fling at thine enemies?"
Yes, it was just a random first google hit.
"Gosh, if it goes below fifty percent I guess you'll decide we have to stay?"
This is quite a simple point I think so try to follow;
1) Right and wrong are not decided my majority opinion.
2) The actions taken by a country claiming to act in accordance with the will of its people must accord to majority opinion otherwise the country loses the legitimacy gained by a democratic process.
So no, democracy does not mean that you always get the rights answer, but if it goes against the people for long, it cannot stay together as a political unit.
Posted by: Rafar at March 11, 2008 04:56 AM (ej9g/)
33
Rafar, you didn't answer my questions.
Too tough for you to keep to your stand as a champion as the Voice Of The People when The People disagree with your views?
Posted by: C-C-G at March 11, 2008 06:43 PM (XoKp7)
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Up-Gunning The Campus Police
The story is a couple of days old, but should echo across campuses nationwide: University police are getting patrol carbines in Arizona:
Police departments at Arizona's three universities plan to arm their officers with military-style assault rifles within the next year, officials said Tuesday.
The new rifles would give campus police officers long-range shooting capabilities, allowing them to hit targets at the end of long hallways or atop tall buildings, officials said.
Arizona State University will be the first of the three schools to use the weapons. Officers there will be trained to use the rifles in the next few months, said ASU police spokesman Cmdr. Jim Hardina.
Officers will undergo 40 hours of training before using the weapons.
"We don't want to just throw rifles out there," Hardina said.
Eight officers at the University of Arizona will get similar training before a rifle program launches there in four to five months, officials said. Northern Arizona University officials said a rifle program was in the works, although a specific start date was not immediately available.
The precise firearms in question are semi-automatic Bushmaster carbines equipped with EOTech holographic optical sights, vertical foregrips and tactical lights, as shown in
this article by Matt Culbertson of ASU Web Devil. As equipped, the firearms are well-suited for clearing buildings, which would probably be the most likely scenario to which they wold be deployed, in the event of the tragic situations like those at NIU and Virginia Tech.
This is a development that more college and university police forces should emulate.
While most full-time university police forces already arm their officers with handguns, the inherent accuracy and effective range of a carbine such as those purchased for use by ASU officers would both increase the range at which officers could engage threats in extreme situations, and also increase the likelihood of any shots fired finding their preferred targets.
Missed shots typically mean that more rounds have to be fired to end a threat, and each additional shot—particularly those shots that miss the target and continue downrange as the laws of physics require—increases the odds of innocent students, faculty, or staff members stopping a bullet.
It will be interesting to see if this idea radiates out to other university police departments.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
01:29 PM
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1
The usual people here have had the usual reaction to it:
"They're bringing machineguns onto the hallowed grounds of higher education! Oh, the shame that George Bu$Hitler has brought upon this once-great nation!"
What they fail to realize is that American cops are actually some of the LEAST well-armed in the world. It's not unusual to see police in Costa Rica, Germany, the UK or other countries walking around everywhere with MP-5 submachineguns strapped to the chests. In the U.S., such firepower is traditionally reserved for SWAT teams and the like, it's not general-issue.
Of course, if the Arizona State legislature allows CCW holders like myself to carry on campus, the need for the cops to up-gun themselves like this suddenly diminishes. Why leave it up to the cops, when responsible, trained individuals are ready and willing to stop any nutjob from wreaking havoc on campus?
Posted by: ExUrbanKevin at March 07, 2008 01:39 PM (ppKzH)
2
"But the new rifles could fire accurately up to approximately 100 yards and offer additional stopping power, he said. "
Huh. I'd hope they'd be accurate out to 300 yards, or I'd be wondering why they didn't go with the M4 carbine.
Posted by: SSG Jeff (USAR) at March 07, 2008 02:47 PM (yiMNP)
3
SSG Jeff, The Bushmaster is almost identical to the M4. Only difference is one is select fire, one is not. They probably do not want to deal with the additional paperwork of having select fire weapons, that and select fire will not give them anything they need for the intended role.
I just hope that they are running M193 from those weapons. Those rounds will achieve core separation at lower velocities than the M855. Which is good because you have less a chance for over penetration.
Posted by: Matt at March 07, 2008 03:15 PM (9V6Vj)
4
Also in addition. "Huh. I'd hope they'd be accurate out to 300 yards,"
From the M4 type weapon, you will not get core disintegration past about 120m. While you will still achieve core separation out to 300, there is much less chance for over penetration at that lower range. That and the average long distance for police shootings is 55 yd. They do not need to worry about distance like we do in the military.
Posted by: Matt at March 07, 2008 03:18 PM (9V6Vj)
5
A hardware solution for a software problem.
Posted by: DaveP. at March 07, 2008 03:43 PM (3Aj1g)
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Has there ever been a campus shooting where the casualty count was higher because the campus police were outgunned? Don't make me whip out the "When all you have is a hammer..." line.
Posted by: BohicaTwentyTwo at March 07, 2008 04:02 PM (oC8nQ)
7
Just what you need, arm the wanna be rambos with high powered rifles so they can shoot through walls, regardless what is on the other side. There was a day when that was a consideration, but now it seems that dress up the cops as scary as possible is the way to deter crime ... Anyone wanna bet?
Cite one case where the university police were out gunned ... Why not issue them university cops tanks and RPGs while we are at it.
Posted by: bill-tb at March 07, 2008 04:56 PM (7evkT)
8
"Just what you need, arm the wanna be rambos with high powered rifles so they can shoot through walls, regardless what is on the other side. There was a day when that was a consideration, but now it seems that dress up the cops as scary as possible is the way to deter crime ... Anyone wanna bet?"
Yet someone else that does not know much about external and terminal ballistics of the weapons in question.
The M16 Series weapons do not punch through walls very well. Even more so when firing M193.
Inside of 80 meters, The M193s projectile will yaw upon hitting a hard target, and will tend to fail to penetrate standard 3 inch cinder block wall.
"Cite one case where the university police were out gunned"
Columbine High School. One uniform cop with a nine mil, and a shotgun in his car. Had to call in SWAT.
Posted by: Matt at March 07, 2008 05:20 PM (9V6Vj)
9
Below is a direct quote from a LEO in Cali, and someone that I consider a close personal friend. If you do not agree with what he says, then you are one of those sheep. I am one of those sheepdogs.
"The world is comprised of sheep, sheepdogs and wolves.
Yes, the analogy may be simplistic, but if it isn't true -- call me on it. I dare ya.
I'm a sheepdog. A sheepdog who acts in the interest of others: Both the shepherd and the sheep.
Sheep are nice.
Sheep are afraid of wolves, because wolves have fangs. Wolves kill and eat sheep.
Sheep are afraid of sheepdogs, because sheepdogs have fangs and bark a lot to control the flock.
Sheep will do NOTHING to protect themselves, as they are not equipped to do so. Without the sheepdog or shepherd, the sheep can only hope to be in the middle of the flock -- so when the wolf comes, the sheep on the perimeter will be eaten first.
Sheep can only congregate to the center of the flock and hope it is NOT their turn.
Sometimes, when a sheep is killed, sheep will bleat, "If we can just get the wolves to turn in their fangs, maybe we won't die!"
Wolves; however, NEVER turn in their fangs.
Unfortunately, that is a FACT sheep ALWAYS fail to accept.
In such denial, sheep WILL TRY SOMETHING -- which usually includes enacting rules, which require the sheepdogs, whom the sheep also fear -- to turn in their fangs, or implore the shepherd to chain the sheepdog.
Sheep bleat happily, because NOW, they see results from their collective efforts. NOW, the sheepdog is defanged or chained. Thus, sheep FEEL and BELIEVE they can roam more freely about the pasture.
They post signs for a "FANG FREE ZONE."
Yet, the wolf awaits, licking his fangs...
The sheep are wrong...again.
Virginia Tech was a GUN FREE ZONE. Cho Seung Hui did not heed the sign.
When there are wolves, we need sheepdogs. So why, WHY -- when so many sheep are killed -- do sheep continue to bleat -- that somehow, the solution is to regulate the fangs of the sheepdogs?
Sheep NEVER let FACTS change the way they FEEL."
Posted by: Matt at March 07, 2008 05:36 PM (9V6Vj)
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Still like the PS90 for this sort of thing. The 5.7 will punch through cheap vests, but not walls. Very quick acquisition as well. I've been very favorably impressed with this little beastie.
Posted by: Uncle Pinky at March 07, 2008 07:21 PM (WDso1)
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bill-tb, please remember to call the next peace officer who pulls you over for speeding a "wannabe rambo" (sic).
Really.
In fact, I suggest you take a swing at him to see if he's the real thing or just a wannbe. Cops love that. Give it a try, and let us know how it goes.
In 3-4 years, with time off for good behaviour, of course.
And as for over-penetration and the M-16/M4/AR (even with M193's), in Arizona, the cops are required by law to carry hollowpoints, so I assume they'll carry something like that in their M4's. But that matters little, as ANY rifle round goes a loooooong way if it doesn't hit it's intended target:
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot1.htm
And pistol rounds ain't much better. I use 105gr Federal EFMJ's in my daily carry gun with the idea that if a miss hits a wall, it'll expand right away and start to slow down, but even then, it'd still be 6-8 walls until that sucker isn't a danger anymore.
Posted by: ExUrbanKevin at March 07, 2008 07:45 PM (toqoX)
12
"Still like the PS90 for this sort of thing. The 5.7 will punch through cheap vests, but not walls."
While the P90 can punch through NIJ rated, Level IIIA vests, the wound cavity in target is similar to that of an ice pick. It does not achieve enough velocity to fragment during its yaw in the target, and as such will tend to over penetrate flesh, and come out the other end. That is bad when you have to worry about those behind the target. The terminal effects of the 5.7 are less than stellar. And similar to that of the 5.45x39. You have to be able to kill the target. 5.56x45 does this quite well. If they would increase the barrel length of the P90 you would see better results on target. But the P90 was designed as a PDW for pilots. That is it. It is not a SWAT weapon, it was never intended to be. It was only designed because downed pilots were having a hard time punching through the armor of their attackers with their MP5A5s.
For your edification. Spitzer type rounds (any round that is longer than it is thick) will yaw in the body, This includes the 147gr 9x19.
5.45x39mm FMJ lead slug.
http://www.firearmstactical.com/images/Wound%20Profiles/AK-74%20545x39.jpg
M193 5.56x45 FMJ lead slug.
http://www.firearmstactical.com/images/Wound%20Profiles/M193.jpg
M855 5.56x45 FMJ lead slug, steel penetrator.
http://www.firearmstactical.com/images/Wound%20Profiles/M855.jpg
7.62x39 Russian FMJ lead slug.
http://www.firearmstactical.com/images/Wound%20Profiles/AK-47%20762x39mm.jpg
M80 7.62x51 FMJ lead slug.
http://www.firearmstactical.com/images/Wound%20Profiles/M80.jpg
As we can see from the pictures (those were artists renditions of actual tests conducted in both ballistics gel, and live animal testing) the only two rounds that caused large final cavities without over penetrating were the M193, and the M855 in 5.56x45mm. While the M855 does tend to cause a larger cavity, it also does a much better job of punching through hard targets. That is why it is seldom used in an LEO role.
Posted by: Matt at March 07, 2008 07:53 PM (9V6Vj)
13
'And as for over-penetration and the M-16/M4/AR (even with M193's), in Arizona, the cops are required by law to carry hollowpoints, so I assume they'll carry something like that in their M4's. But that matters little, as ANY rifle round goes a loooooong way if it doesn't hit it's intended target:'
Holopoints (when talking rifles and FMJ, not frangables) do not cause them to expand much. LEOs carry holos in their rifles because they are more accurate. But do sometimes tend to fragment easier than standard M193.
"And pistol rounds ain't much better. I use 105gr Federal EFMJ's in my daily carry gun with the idea that if a miss hits a wall, it'll expand right away and start to slow down, but even then, it'd still be 6-8 walls until that sucker isn't a danger anymore."
What type of wall are you shooting at? cardboard? sheet rock? Or brick? I do not see many schools that use sheet rock in their construction.
Posted by: Matt at March 07, 2008 07:57 PM (9V6Vj)
14
They should just allow concealed carry on campus so students that want to protect themselves can do so. Here in Oregon anybody a CHL can carry concealed on the campus of any public school.
Posted by: Brent at March 07, 2008 09:23 PM (anfwE)
15
"They should just allow concealed carry on campus so students that want to protect themselves can do so."
ONE HUNDRED PERCENT AGREE!!! I honestly think that they should take the old "Right to carry" bill all the way to the top, and get it signed. Arm the sheep, the wolves wills top biting.
Posted by: Matt at March 07, 2008 10:07 PM (9V6Vj)
16
Arm the sheep, the wolves wills top biting.
The problem with that is, one party seems to want to be the party of choice for the wolves.
Just watch which party the politicians who propose giving ex-cons their votes back belong to. Most if not all of them belong to one party, and it ain't the one with the elephant logo.
It hardly seems a coincidence that the party that wants to gain the votes of ex-cons is the same one that wants to take guns out of the hands of the public.
Posted by: C-C-G at March 07, 2008 10:11 PM (43PDP)
17
Oh I know brother. I know. And from my constant typos, it seems that I really need to review my posts before hitting enter. Sometimes I get a bit excited. My bad all.
Posted by: Matt at March 07, 2008 10:17 PM (9V6Vj)
18
Carbines for university police? Of course. It is only rational to provide proper tools for clearly defined and recognized specific tasks. Handguns must, of necessity, be recognized to be limited to an effective (reliably accurate) range of less than 25 yards. True, some exceptional shooters can acheive results to 50 yards and beyond, but for most human beings, reliable handgun accuracy is a less than 25 yard affair, often, much less. There is no question (at least not among those who actually understand such matters) that carbines possess much greater accuracy potential over longer ranges than handguns, for trained and untrained shooters.
One should also understand that merely putting on a police uniform does not confer upon the wearer great skill with firearms. Because firearm proficiency is a matter of training and consistent practice, civilians can, and often do, outstrip the average police officer in firearms effectiveness. However, that said, virtually anyone will be more consistently accurate with a carbine than a handgun. Enhancements such as red dot sights can also help to enhance accuracy and speed.
Still, let us not forget the primary issue here: There has yet to be a single school shooting in America in which the police have played any protective or preventive role. Even at the Virginia Tech shooting where the police were able to respond within two minutes (an incredible bit of serendipitous random chance), all of the killing and wounding had been done and the killer was dead by his own hand before the incredibly speedy arrival of the police (a bit of speed that has never before occured, nor is it likely to every occur again). The only truly effective means for dealing with this problem has always been and remains the arming of willing and capable citizens, always and everywhere.
Posted by: Mike at March 08, 2008 01:03 PM (SUmgE)
19
The only truly effective means for dealing with this problem has always been and remains the arming of willing and capable citizens, always and everywhere.
See also the recent Yeshiva shooting:
Yitzhak Dadon, a student, said he was armed with a rifle and waited on the roof of a nearby building. “He came out of the library spraying automatic fire … the terrorist came to the entrance and I shot him twice in the head,” he said.
Posted by: Pablo at March 09, 2008 09:16 AM (yTndK)
20
"The only truly effective means for dealing with this problem has always been and remains the arming of willing and capable citizens, always and everywhere."
I do agree with you. Those people would also be called sheepdogs.
Posted by: Matt at March 09, 2008 09:25 AM (9V6Vj)
21
"It's not unusual to see police in Costa Rica, Germany, the UK or other countries walking around everywhere with MP-5 submachineguns strapped to the chests."
Have you actually been to the UK? It is almost unheard of, outside of airports, to see a policeman armed with anything, much less a submachinegun. Our lot tend to go for batons and occcasional pepper spray.
Posted by: Rafar at March 10, 2008 06:52 AM (ej9g/)
22
Indeed, Rafar.
Of course, the number of gun-related deaths in the UK is also rising steeply. An excerpt:
However, gun crime figures released last October [2004] showed a 3% rise to 10,590 incidents in England and Wales in the year to June — an average of 29 a day. Gun crime has more than doubled since Labour came to power in 1997.
The correlation seems clear. Take guns away from honest civilians, criminals feel safer.
Go ahead and try to spin it, Rafar.
Posted by: C-C-G at March 10, 2008 08:15 AM (XoKp7)
23
"The correlation seems clear. Take guns away from honest civilians, criminals feel safer.
Go ahead and try to spin it, Rafar."
I don't have to spin it. You only see correlation because you have no idea what it is actually like living in the UK. You probably imagine a significant minority of people wandering around pre-handgun ban with pistols in their bags in order to defend themselves as it is, I believe, in the US. You probably also imagine a moderate number of homeowners with pistols or shotguns available for home defence.
Honest civilians have never (at least not in living memory) carried firearms for personal security in the UK. Banning handguns did not decrease the number of people who carried handguns for personal security, it decreased the number of people who could shoot at gun clubs (and knocked off our pistol shooting teams, something that I disagreed with at the time, though we haven't had any mass shootings since it came in. Remember that the ban was to prevent a future Dunblaine or Hungerford, not to prevent gang violence in London.)
Because of this, banning the ownership of handguns cannot have had any effect on the number of criminals who didn't commit crimes because they might have faced a gun wielding civilian as there just weren't any.
That's why we have so many burglaries over here, burglars know that they will not face guns, unlike in the US (where I believe your burglary rate is much lower). On the other hand our rate of gun deaths (both accidental and deliberate) is much lower than yours. You pays your money and takes your choice.
But all of that is incidental to my reply, which was just to remind people that policemen in the UK do not go around armed in any routine sense, and are certainly not more heavily armed than US police. A security guard at a warehouse in the US is probably more heavily armed than the vast majority of all UK policemen.
Posted by: Rafar at March 10, 2008 09:02 AM (ej9g/)
24
"However, gun crime figures released last October [2004] showed a 3% rise to 10,590 incidents in England and Wales in the year to June — an average of 29 a day. Gun crime has more than doubled since Labour came to power in 1997."
I only just noticed, these are figures from 2004. Interesting that you should pick this year, as since then, year on year we have seen falling gun crimes numbers as can be seen here;
http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs08/hosb0308.pdf
Page 36.
So what does this mean for your clearcut correlation?
Posted by: Rafar at March 10, 2008 09:26 AM (EDjeA)
25
61 per cent of respondents believe the war with Iraq was not worth fighting
I bet 61% of the public couldn't point out the territory occupied by Iraq on a sat photo of the middle east that lacked any labels, etc.
If they could, they wouldn't say such stupid stuff.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at March 10, 2008 10:08 AM (f2IdK)
26
"I bet 61% of the public couldn't point out the territory occupied by Iraq on a sat photo of the middle east that lacked any labels, etc."
Well, if you don't like democracy, move somewhere where decisions are made by an unelected elite.
Posted by: Rafar at March 10, 2008 04:24 PM (LSirq)
27
"I only just noticed, these are figures from 2004. Interesting that you should pick this year, as since then, year on year we have seen falling gun crimes numbers as can be seen here;"
"Posted on Monday, September 11, 2006 by galloway
While gun ownership in the UK is perhaps more tightly controlled than in any other European country, with gun crime constituting less than 1% of total crime, it is a fact that guns and incidents involving firearms are a quotidian feature of modern city life. So much so that out of the almost 11,000 firearms offences committed each year in England and Wales, most are not even reported in the media."
http://galloway.wordpress.com/2006/09/11/gun-crime-in-the-uk/
"Gun crime on the rise
Exclusive by John Scheerhout and Mike Slingsby
25/ 5/2007
SPIRALLING gun crime is blighting Greater Manchester with more than 3,000 firearms incidents in the last 15 months, the MEN can reveal today."
You were saying?
Posted by: Matt at March 10, 2008 06:01 PM (9V6Vj)
28
Sorry it didn't take the whole quote.
"And actual shootings, not including crimes where guns were not fired, increased nine per cent in the last 12 months alone, with 120 confirmed discharges."
There are other parts of the UK where gun crime has risen by almost 50%.
Posted by: Matt at March 10, 2008 06:03 PM (9V6Vj)
29
Matt, you'll never convince Rafar, he's got a great set of leftist blinders. He sees only the "facts" he wants to see, all others are actively ignored.
Posted by: C-C-G at March 10, 2008 08:05 PM (XoKp7)
30
"So much so that out of the almost 11,000 firearms offences committed each year in England and Wales, most are not even reported in the media.""
Have you looked at what those firearms offenses constitute? The vast majority are for air guns.
Anyway, this is utterly irrelevant to what I said. I just corrected the minor point that Uk policemen do not routinely wander around with submachine guns. In response to the post talking about gun control leading to more gun crime I pointed out (as I thought that being ignorant of the UK you wouldn't mind some additional information) that people in the UK do not and have not carried handguns for personal protection, so the ban did not remove armed civilians from the streets, thus negating the correleation offered. These points are pretty much indisputable as they are observably true to anyone who lives here.
In fact, one of the things that is increasing gun crime (particularly amongst youths) is the desire to carry handguns for person protection leading to more revenge shootings (where previously they would have been stabbings or beatings).
People are just as violent, gang driven, murderous and thieving here as there, it is just harder for them to get guns to do it with. This is another obvious point borne out by the number of imitation weapons used. Why use an imitation gun? because you can't get a real one.
You seem to imagine that I care what you do in your country. I don't. I was just correcting some groos (but understandable) errors in your comments. The idea that UK police are heavily armed is laughable. The idea that a handgun ban meant that criminals were free to molest civilians without fear of being shot at is also laughable. You did not knon that because you don't live here.
You want to have freely available guns in your country, great, go for it. We do not want to have freely available guns in our country. The handgun ban was put in place primarily to prevent mass shootings, which are almost exclusively done with legally held firearms. Since it has been in place we have not had any. Maybe it is because of the ban, maybe not, it is hard to tell.
"And actual shootings, not including crimes where guns were not fired, increased nine per cent in the last 12 months alone, with 120 confirmed discharges."
My goodness, 120 discharges! Panic in the streets, the slaughter!
"Matt, you'll never convince Rafar, he's got a great set of leftist blinders. He sees only the "facts" he wants to see, all others are actively ignored."
So far the only facts that I have claimed are that;
1) Uk police do not routinely go around with submachine guns.
2) People in the UK do not carry handguns for personal protection and never have.
Do you dispute them?
Posted by: Rafar at March 11, 2008 05:17 AM (ej9g/)
31
It doesn't help much when police tactics are to wait outside of the building, terrorizing escaping students, and generally waiting until the bad guy either runs out of ammo or kills himself.
Give them rape whistles for all the good that they have been doing.
Posted by: Smarty at March 11, 2008 03:18 PM (+jnQm)
32
"Have you looked at what those firearms offenses constitute? The vast majority are for air guns."
Where does it say that? I didn't see it in the articles I posted. Did I miss something? If not then you need to provide corroborating information so we know that you are not just full of it. If you do not provide information backing your claim then you dump what creditability you have, and that calls into question everything you have said.
"Anyway, this is utterly irrelevant to what I said. I just corrected the minor point that Uk policemen do not routinely wander around with submachine guns."
Ok very well. Because I do not live there, I do not get a chance to see them on a daily basis, but when I was site seeing after a JSOF conference in London I saw some police walking around with MP5A5s and Glock 17s. Several different times in fact. Maybe they were simply an ARV Team. But if so why did I not see a vehicle near by? And why was neither the watcher nor the driver in said vehicle?
"that people in the UK do not and have not carried handguns for personal protection, so the ban did not remove armed civilians from the streets,"
So what you are telling me is, that before the ban, NO ONE carried? Not one sole carried legally, or illegally for personal protection. That is a mighty bold claim. Care to back it up?
"People are just as violent, gang driven, murderous and thieving here as there, it is just harder for them to get guns to do it with."
True, it is more difficult for honest civilians to get firearms over there. But I can just about promise you that it is not too tough to get them illegally. All banning weapons does is keep honest people honest. Also, by your own admission, if you take guns away, and make it hard for them to get guns, then they find another way to hurt and kill. So once again, banning guns does not stop crime. It just makes it evolve.
[quote]The idea that a handgun ban meant that criminals were free to molest civilians without fear of being shot at is also laughable.[/quote]
So what you are saying is that if you make it really hard for the criminals to get guns, but allow people to have them, that the bad guys would not think twice about trying to stab someone?
"We do not want to have freely available guns in our country."
Funny. I have met a few people on my travels that would disagree with this statement. One buddy I worked with the last time I was in Afghan was really ticked that he could be trusted to carry a weapon into combat, and to die for his country, but could not own a personal. Earlier you talked about how we should not make assumptions about a country we do not live in, should you make assumptions as to what everyone in your country wants?
"My goodness, 120 discharges! Panic in the streets, the slaughter!"
Make light of it, cool go right on ahead. But since the ban, firearm crime has gone up. And it will continue to go up.
"1) Uk police do not routinely go around with submachine guns."
We have a civilian working for my command as a historian. She grew up in in Northern Ireland, she disagrees with you.
"2) People in the UK do not carry handguns for personal protection and never have."
Can you provide sources saying that no one carried?
Posted by: Matt at March 11, 2008 09:27 PM (9V6Vj)
33
I guess you are just going to wait till this drops off the board. Good way to prove yourself.
Posted by: Matt at March 12, 2008 04:46 PM (9V6Vj)
34
"I guess you are just going to wait till this drops off the board. Good way to prove yourself."
Actually I wrote a rebuttal which was not accepted when submitted, even though I tried multiple times. I'll make this one short and then give up if it still doesn't work (In which case you won't be reading this)
1) "Where does it say that? I didn't see it in the articles I posted. Did I miss something? If not then you need to provide corroborating information so we know that you are not just full of it."
Read the report I posted, starting at page 36. It is all there in black and white.
2) "Ok very well. Because I do not live there, I do not get a chance to see them on a daily basis, but when I was site seeing after a JSOF conference in London I saw some police walking around with MP5A5s and Glock 17s. Several different times in fact. Maybe they were simply an ARV Team. But if so why did I not see a vehicle near by? And why was neither the watcher nor the driver in said vehicle?"
I worked in London for 7 1/2 years, and still go there regularly. I have never seen armed police wandering about except in certain exceptional circumstances (Demos and Marches usually) or at specific security risks (Buck house, Airports, 10 downing street,, etc) Maybe the JSOF was considered a high risk?
3) "Not one sole carried legally, or illegally for personal protection. That is a mighty bold claim. Care to back it up?"
Don't be silly. I am sure that a vanishingly small number of people did, but they would be considered nutcase by the general population and criminals by the police, since "Presonal protection" is not a valid reason for getting a firearms certificate.
To make it simple, your idea that people carried firearms for personal protection in any meaningful number is as absurd as me saying that there are virtually no Christians in Texas. It is just absurd ont the face of it. You don't have to believe me, of course, but it is worth noting that it is estimated that only 0.1% of the population was affected by the handgun ban ("Before the 1997 ban, handguns were only held by 0.1% of the population,[24] and while the number of crimes involving firearms in England and Wales increased from 13,874 in 1998/99 to 24,070 in 2002/03, they remained relatively static at 24,094 in 2003/04, and have since fallen to 21,521 in 2005/06. The latter includes 3,275 crimes involving imitation firearms and 10,437 involving air weapons, compared to 566 and 8,665 respectively in 1998/99.[25] Only those "firearms" positively identified as being imitations or air weapons (e.g. by being recovered by the police or by being fired) are classed as such, so the actual numbers are likely to be significantly higher. In 2005/06, 8,978 of the total of 21,521 firearms crimes (42%) were for criminal damage.", http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_the_United_Kingdom, yes it is Wiki, but it is referenced)
Considering the strong social and legal impetus to not walk about with firearms what proportion of that 0.1% carried routinely for personal protection? Even if they all did (and knowing and working for many gun enthusiasts not one of them ever did, and would have considered the idea absurd) then there is still basically no chance of a criminal coming across one in which case there cannot have been a deterrent effect.
"if you take guns away, and make it hard for them to get guns, then they find another way to hurt and kill. So once again, banning guns does not stop crime. It just makes it evolve."
Yes, it doesn't change human nature (shocking that) but it does limit access to a very powerful way to express that human nature.
"So what you are saying is that if you make it really hard for the criminals to get guns, but allow people to have them, that the bad guys would not think twice about trying to stab someone?"
No, I am saying that since people did not carry guns around before the ban, the ban cannot have had the effect of making criminals feel safer.
"Earlier you talked about how we should not make assumptions about a country we do not live in, should you make assumptions as to what everyone in your country wants?"
The pro-gun lobby in the Uk is powerless, tiny and irrelevant. That is not to say that it is completely absent. It has about as much clout as the vegan lobby, ie, none.
"We have a civilian working for my command as a historian. She grew up in in Northern Ireland, she disagrees with you."
True, and an indictment of my prejudices. NI was a low level guerilla war so yes, police were armed. I should have said "Mainland Britain" and excluded NI. My apologies.
So, to mess up the language some but put in the required caveats;
1) Outside of exceptional circumstances, high value terrorist targets and low level wars, Mainland UK police do not go around routinely armed with submachine guns.
2) The porportion of people who even owned handguns, let alone carried them is so vanishingly small that the removal of those guns cannot have had any influence on crime rates due to increased confidence in criminals.
Happy with the caveats? Will you concede them now? I honestly cannot see how you cannot. They are obviously, incontrovertably, observably true after all.
Posted by: Rafar at March 14, 2008 06:21 AM (EDjeA)
35
wow, it worked! Didn't end up short though.
Posted by: Rafar at March 14, 2008 06:22 AM (EDjeA)
36
"The pro-gun lobby in the Uk is powerless, tiny and irrelevant. That is not to say that it is completely absent. It has about as much clout as the vegan lobby, ie, none."
Re-reading this, apart from the rapid typing typos, for which I apologise, I note that this is not clear enough. I should have said something like;
"The pro-carrying-guns-for-personal-protection-lobby"
ugly though it is.
Posted by: Rafar at March 14, 2008 10:34 AM (ej9g/)
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March 06, 2008
UNC Student Body President Gunned Down
A body was found, shot multiple times in the head, yesterday morning about a half-mile from the University of North Carolina campus in Chapel Hill.
She has now been identified.
Chapel Hill police have identified a woman found dead near the University of North Carolina campus Wednesday morning as the university's student body president.
UNC senior Eve Carson, 22, was found shot multiple times in the head about a half-mile from campus.
The
News & Observer seems to hint that the murder may have occurred during a carjacking.
Investigators are looking for Carson's stolen 2005 blue Toyota Highlander with Georgia license plate AIV 6690. They believe the vehicle was taken during the crime.
What a shame, to lose such a promising young person to seemingly random violence.
The University's statement is
here.
Police are asking anyone with information to call 919-968-2760.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
02:10 PM
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1
No doubt they will be rounding up the hockey team for questioning.
Posted by: Tregonsee at March 06, 2008 04:05 PM (ezKKG)
2
UNC4evr is one funny guy.
But here's a tip. It's tragedy + time = comedy.
See, you need to give it a day or two before you turn this tragic murder into a cheap joke.
Posted by: David Terrenoire at March 06, 2008 10:54 PM (Bx4FB)
3
Dude,
That wasn't a cheap joke. I'm serious and I know what I'm talking about. I currently go to school there.
Posted by: UNC4evr at March 07, 2008 01:44 AM (+y6ne)
4
Interesting and sad, mostly sad.
Last Tuesday night down south a ways at Auburn U. Lauren Burk was shot just three miles off campus.
Her car was found torched near the campus.
Bunch of bad hoodoo going on here.
Posted by: Urban Scopion at March 07, 2008 09:12 AM (DfROI)
5
Alas, it is not random senseless violence. It is planned, preprogrammed, and entirely forseeable attacks on people who have been systematically disarmed.
Imagine if she had a holster in her car. Empty is does nothing. Now imagine that whe had a .44 Special Charter Arms revolver in it. Then, instead of being murdered, she would have had a chance to perforate the thugs, perhaps even removing a chance for the criminal defense lawyers to make money.
Then the criminal prosecution lawyers would have had to decide to go after her for not having the good taste to submit to the thugs and the lawyers who ban self defense. Well, if criminal prosecution lawyers did that very often, they would rightly be regarded as scum. As it is, they are elevated to the pinnacle of society, as we desparately need them to protect us from the thugs, against whom we are forbidden to protect outselves.
Ask yourself: Who benefits from having civilian holsters be empty?
Answer: Criminal defense lawyers. Criminal prosecution lawyers. Police.
Posted by: Don Meaker at March 08, 2008 11:55 AM (PWj7B)
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Selective Memory
James Gibney of The Atlantic writes that "U.S. military personnel have been raping Okinawans for the last 60-plus years," though graciously allowing that "the overwhelming majority of U.S. military personnel aren't sociopaths."
Gibney does not provide evidence of six-decades of continual sexual assault, but then, he wasn't shooting for accuracy, just overwrought hyperbole to justify his premise.
Writing in
Asia Times Online, Chalmers Johnson
notes that since the most infamous case in 1995, there have been precisely four similar incidents:
On June 29, 2001, a 24-year-old air force staff sergeant, Timothy Woodland, was arrested for publicly raping a 20-year-old Okinawan woman on the hood of a car.
On November 2, 2002, Okinawan authorities took into custody Marine Major Michael J Brown, 41 years old, for sexually assaulting a Filipina barmaid outside the Camp Courtney officer's club.
On May 25, 2003, Marine Military Police turned over to Japanese police a 21-year-old lance corporal, Jose Torres, for breaking a 19-year-old woman's nose and raping her, once again in Kin village.
In early July 2005, a drunken air force staff sergeant molested a 10-year-old Okinawan girl on her way to Sunday school. He at first claimed to be innocent, but then police found a photo of the girl's nude torso on his cell phone.
Not including the case dismissed this past week, that brings us a total of five recorded cases in the past 13 years.
By way of comparison, if Mr. Gibney really did have an interest in "The Price of Empire" in Okinawa, he could perhaps spend some time researching the number of Okinawan citizens either directly killed by the Japanese, used as human shields, or were ordered to commit suicide by the Japanese military during the Battle of Okinawa during the Second World War.
Estimates range into the high thousands.
I somewhat doubt, however, that this particular reality suits Mr. Gibney's preferred narrative, where American soldiers are the preferred oppressors.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
01:04 PM
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1
Might be interesting to research the number of actual rapes during the Rape of Nanking and the number of Korean "comfort women" enslaved.
Posted by: Charlie (Colorado) at March 06, 2008 01:16 PM (YgILD)
2
Don't forget the tens of thousands of "comfort women", enslaved by the Japanese to provide sex to their soldiers.
Posted by: pst314 at March 06, 2008 02:44 PM (OA547)
3
One is "random".
Two is a crime wave.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at March 06, 2008 05:53 PM (f2IdK)
4
On June 29, 2001, a 24-year-old air force staff sergeant, Timothy Woodland, was arrested for publicly raping a 20-year-old Okinawan woman on the hood of a car.
This one was thrown out, if I remember correctly.
I was in the Marines in Okinawa and now I'm in mainland Japan as a civilian working in other capacities, so we really feel the sting of this crap.
One interesting thing that most people don't know is that most anti-US sentiment in Okinawa is from mainlanders who are transplants or visiting Okinawa to protest. Okinawans benefit an enormous amount by the US presence; there is a revolving door of young people with a disposable income, and the jobs on the bases are the most coveted on the island. I had a girlfriend down there who was on a waiting list for 2 years to work at the bar on Tori Station (Army base). Okinawan landlords know the BAH (housing money that service members get) maximum, and charge service members the max (because coming from the government). Landowners surrounding the bases also get "rent" money for their property. A few years ago when some of Tori Station was being returned to the Okinawans, the land owners protested. It was far more lucrative to get rent from the US Army than to use the land for farmland.
Okinawans might not be huge fans of the US presence, but they understand the benefits. It's also important to know that while Okinawans are "Japanese", most consider themselves Okinawans first, and they have no particular love for mainlanders, whom they refer to as "naicha". It's not a term of endearment.
Posted by: paully at March 06, 2008 06:43 PM (o10G1)
5
But where are we going to re-deploy to? I was under the impression that Okinawa was a crucial base in the Middle-East.
Posted by: Techie at March 07, 2008 11:24 AM (AV8Z6)
6
5 in 13 years is still way, way, too many. Especially when you consider that there are probably quite a few more that go unreported (always the case for rape and assault.)
Every few years, when another incident like this pops up in Okinawa, I just think, "Oh, no, not again."
Saying we're nowhere near as bad as the Japanese Imperial Army is, well, obvious, isn't it? I mean we nuked Japan twice to exterminate that menace.
We need to continue to enforce our zero tolerance policy in this regard (I think our military is handling it pretty darn well, actually), but, sorry, even when lefties use this as an excuse to smear the entire military, the best response is probably to simply say, "You're right. It IS horrible, it cannot be tolerated, and we should punish the hell out of the perpetrators, as we always do."
Posted by: notropis at March 08, 2008 02:23 AM (hwVnY)
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Homegrown IED Targets Manhattan Military Recruiting Station
The NY Times City Room blog has the latest details:
The police have attributed the blast to an improvised explosive device, and police Commissioner Raymond W. Kelly said the device had been placed in an ammunition box like the kind that can be bought at a military supply store. Mr. Kelly spoke with Mayor Michael R. Bloomberg at a news conference at 9:30 a.m. in Times Square. The authorities are looking into a possible connection to two earlier bombings at foreign consulates in Manhattan, in 2005 and 2007. Official said that in today’s attack, a man in a gray hooded sweatshirt was seen leaving the scene on a bicycle. Subways and traffic are running normally through Times Square.
They also have a useful
slideshow of images from the scene, which gives us just enough information to start making some inferences about the bomb and the bomber.
Looking at images 1-3 in the slideshow, you'll note that the damage from the blast seems relatively minor. Image 1 give you a pretty good idea of precisely where the bomb was placed, as you can see how the shrapnel radiated out from a central point, which appears to have been (as we face the building) almost dead-center in front of the plate-glass window.
Slightly enlarging the same photo and cropping it to focus on the recruiting center front helps to see the central radiating point of the blast a bit better.
You'll also note in this closer view, and in the
second and
third images of the scene, that there was no attempt to make this an anti-personnel weapon, as there is no evidence of there being ball bearing, BBs, or another other sort of shrapnel that would form an intentional
secondary blast mechanism.
The time of the blast was around 3:43 AM, when pedestrian traffic in the area is typically light and the recruiting station was closed. From the time of the blast and lack of shrapnel, we can make the guarded assumption that causing casualties was not the bomber's intention.
We can also infer that the bomber had no intention of destroying the targeted building as well, as the blast was small, and the ammunition can that carried the device could have easily held far more explosives.
From the choice of target, lack of shrapnel, and low amount of explosives used, I think it only logical to conclude that the blast was political in nature, a violent though purposefully less-lethal bomb, if you can ever call an improvised explosive device "less lethal." For these reasons, I doubt it was the act of Islamic extremists.
This was an act of domestic terrorism.
I do not, however, feel comfortable blaming any specific anti-war group for this act, or even pinning this as an anti-war act at this point in time.
Anti-war groups, in general, are non-violent in nature, and those that lean towards the anarchist fringe that are violence prone tend towards vandalism, and generally, don't have the technical expertise to manufacture even such a simple device.
Whoever built this bomb may have sympathies towards the anti-war movement and/or anti-military feelings, but I would be surprised to find them affiliated officially with any specific anti-war or anti-military group, and would be even more surprised if anyone inside one of these groups had advance knowledge of the attack.
There are some news accounts noting that there were
similar minor blasts carried out against the Mexican and British consulates in New York in recent years, each using blackpowder inside inert hand grenade casings, also carried out by a bomber on a bicycle.
This seems quite plausible, but we won't know more until the FBI announces the findings of their investigation.
Update: A reminder, via
Ace-of-Spades, that the peace-loving left isn't
always so peace-leaving:
Thirty-Eight Years Ago Today
March 6, 1970 at 11:55 a.m.
Three members of the radical activist group known as the Weather Underground, Diana Oughton, Ted Gold and Terry Robbins, blew themselves straight to hell when the bomb they were building, which was intended to blow up a dance at Fort Dix, exploded in an otherwise quiet New York neighborhood.
Had they been better bomb-makers, instead of killing themselves, they would have killed an untold number of American soldiers. In the name of peace.
Luckily, the Weathermen's expertise at bomb-making left much to be desired.
The Weathermen's hatred of the United States manifested itself in the bombings of the U.S. Capitol building, New York City Police Headquarters, the Pentagon, and the National Guard offices in Washington, D.C. The Weathermen's leader, Bill Ayers summed up the Weathermen's ideology as follows: "Kill all the rich people. Break up their cars and apartments. Bring the revolution home, Kill your parents."
Yes, the Bill Ayer's above is the same man that has had Barack Obama as a dinner guest, and who served with Obama on the board of directors of the left-leaning
Woods Fund from 1999 until 2002.
Diana Oughton, one of the deceased, was Ayer's girlfriend until some of the 100 pounds of dynamite they intended to use to bomb a non-commissioned officers' dance at Fort Dix detonated.
Update: Hot Air has
surveillance video of the bike-riding bomber approaching the recruiting center, and the NYPD thinks they have his bike.
Was the suspect smart enough to wipe his prints from the bike?
Update: The bomber sent an
anti-war manifesto to eight NY Democratic Congressmen.
Update: Coincidence? Authorities are now saying the anti-war activist that mailed the "We did it!" letters to Congress had nothing to do with the recruiting center blast.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
10:48 AM
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1
My very first thought, when I saw the headline and before reading the story, was that this was the New York extension of the Code Pink protests outside the Berkeley Marine Recruiting Center. From the bomber's perspective, this is a "statement," as opposed to a massively destructive act of war. As you note, it's not obvious whether the bomber was actually affiliated with an anti-War group, but that's certainly where his sympathies lie.
Posted by: Bookworm at March 06, 2008 11:05 AM (ueKxq)
2
I keep reading that it was a small explosion, but early this morning, right after it happened, I heard two different phone interviews with people who lived on the upper floors of either this building or one very close. The first interviewee said she lived on the 41st floor and the blast shook her apartment. Another caller, a man, said it shook him out of bed. That doesn't sound like such a small blast to me. I think they are lucky that the damage wasn't more extensive.
Posted by: Sara at March 06, 2008 11:34 AM (Wi/N0)
3
Isn't the ammo can alone enough to make some pretty lethal shrapnel?
I'm not arguing against your thesis, which seems sound. I'm just saying, if someone had been unlucky enough to be walking past, this could have been nasty.
Posted by: S. Weasel at March 06, 2008 11:43 AM (rasT+)
4
Some conclusions are being jumped to here.
How many recruits are angry at their recruiters? I would bet this is at least as likely as an anti-war protester. And since an ammo can was used, this is probably not a bad bet. An anti-war protester would be more likely to use a pipe or a jar/molotv style.
Posted by: Skyler at March 06, 2008 12:10 PM (xakVm)
5
i think i've read a dozen commentaries on this bomb, and yours is the only rational response to this whole thing. Let's wait for the FBI.
Everyone else has figured out who it is already, and wants to cut their heads off for treason.
Thank you for this small island of calm in an ocean of screaming vigilantes.
Posted by: eric taylor at March 06, 2008 12:13 PM (HaPIL)
6
How dare they interfere with a person's right to choose what to do with their body!
Posted by: Glen Harness at March 06, 2008 12:20 PM (qrVOZ)
7
"in today’s attack, a man in a gray hooded sweatshirt was seen leaving the scene on a bicycle."
At least he's a carbon-neutral domestic terrorist.
Posted by: zorn at March 06, 2008 12:25 PM (TSa/6)
8
[quote]How many recruits are angry at their recruiters?[/quote]
Actually, not many. While you are being recruited, it's all sunshine and candy. It isn't till you get to boot that you realize that the recruiter may have colored the facts a bit.
When I went in the Marines, the only people mad at the recruiter were the ones he had to tell that they were not eligible, for whatever reason.
Posted by: DanB at March 06, 2008 12:28 PM (lUqUe)
9
I wouldn't be surprised if the culprit is a "Unibomber" type.
Just look at the police sketch of the Unibomber that was originally distributed:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/9e/Unabomber-sketch.png/180px-Unabomber-sketch.png
Coincidence? I think NOT.
Posted by: MarkJ at March 06, 2008 12:30 PM (IKzfP)
10
"How many recruits are angry at their recruiters?"
Skyler, you do know there is no draft, right?
Everyone who visits a recruitment office does so voluntarily, to obtain information so that they can make their own decision about whether to volunteer or not. How, exactly, would this lead to recruits being angry at their recruiters? Angry about what?
Please explain.
Posted by: Pat at March 06, 2008 12:30 PM (0suEp)
11
Sklyer, that's a pretty lame assumption you're making. If someone was mad at his recruiter, is the answer "I'm going to attack his place of work," which means he gets a day or two off or "I'm going to attack him for lying to me"?
This seems like it was clearly a political act aimed at the military. The purpose was to send a message to the war effort.
Posted by: Tibor at March 06, 2008 12:39 PM (STAFE)
12
Likely a domestic terrorist a la OKC or possibly a COINTELPRO hit.
Posted by: Samir at March 06, 2008 12:40 PM (9xpb9)
13
How many recruits are angry at their recruiters?
Few, if any. This is high brow comedy.
But, lets take this "logic" to it's extension. Assuming for the minute there is someone pissed off enough at their recruiter to do this.
What is the likely hood they were recruited in Manhattan? I'd say 0.02
Likely hood they are still so mad, while not on active duty, but out of the military riding around on a bicycle in Manhattan in a hooded sweatshirt: 0.000000001
I would bet this is at least as likely as an anti-war protester.
And you'd lose that bet.
Posted by: The Ace at March 06, 2008 12:42 PM (BNlV7)
14
so I make a comment saying that we hold our troops to a higher standard than the insurgents and it gets deleted?
in-f-ing-credible. talk about thought control.
Posted by: rapid at March 06, 2008 12:54 PM (c7CKN)
15
Rapid, I have no record of you even posting a comment, so please, put on your big-boy pants and stop whining.
I have, however, deleted someone else's comment for profanity. It isn't allowed here, folks, and if you can't make your point without it, you are invited to leave.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at March 06, 2008 12:59 PM (xNV2a)
16
"Anti-war groups, in general, are non-violent in nature"
Really? Someone should tell them that.
Posted by: Rob Crawford at March 06, 2008 01:19 PM (IuKAf)
17
"possibly a COINTELPRO hit"
*snort*
Posted by: Rob Crawford at March 06, 2008 01:21 PM (IuKAf)
18
I think we need to convene a commission and have a series of hearings and investigations complete with wild speculations in the conclusions.
I've seen IED damage before, working in movies, and this was no IED. It was a controlled demolition from _INSIDE_ the recruiting office.
Obvious suspects: New York City moneymen, Bush, the Israelis, the RNC, the KKk, Bush, freepers, Michelle Malkin, Bush, St. John McBush, the Clintons, the ghost of Vince Foster, Bush or the one Dixie chick who is a dwarf or a midget.
Or, going to the left, Cindy McKinney. Anyone check that facade for slap marks?
Posted by: docweasel at March 06, 2008 01:21 PM (WzPzd)
19
We can see the pictures, too.
Can you tell us something we don't already know?
Posted by: nick at March 06, 2008 01:23 PM (iO6Ju)
20
About a year ago, local lefties did something similar in Milwaukee. I'd post a link to the story, but your blog won't let me.
Posted by: Mike at March 06, 2008 01:26 PM (6xL4n)
21
smells like a false-flag op; no one truly opposed to the military would hand recruiting stations such a powerful PR tool as this. one can only imagine the sympathy (and sympathetic legislation, no doubt) this will engender....
Posted by: j at March 06, 2008 01:28 PM (hB0jP)
22
Does anyone know where Cindy Sheehan is?
Posted by: jfp at March 06, 2008 01:46 PM (cqQrZ)
23
The positioning of the bomb in the first picture is incorrect. Look for the pic of the marine opening the door. You can clearly see that the front edge of the door is heavily bent, but that bend sharply abates so that the bend is gone before the opposite end of the door.
This indicates the blast was very close to the leading edge of the door, which took the brunt of the explosion. No doubt the doorjam near the leading edge of the door is probably heavily damaged and bent almost directly back, tho the pictures I've seen are taken at the wrong angle to show this.
Posted by: mcgurk at March 06, 2008 01:52 PM (Ri74D)
24
Holy crap J!! You hit it right on the head! False flag! Explosives never broke glass! Look at the pattern of how the glass fell! You're a gen-U-wine jeen-I-us!
There's still glass at the top of the window! It defies all the laws of gravity! Can anyone confirm Rove's whereabouts at the time of the attack?
Posted by: TBinSTL at March 06, 2008 02:00 PM (2vLkB)
25
"smells like a false-flag op; no one truly opposed to the military would hand recruiting stations such a powerful PR tool as this."
Um, right. Sure. Because anti-war protesters are all clear-thinking, logical people who would never do anything stupid, pointless, or counter-productive.
No, the military recruiters must have set off the bomb themselves, in order to . . . um . . . wait a minute, I'm sure I can think of some way that bombing their own office would benefit them. Wait, I've got it! To discredit the anti-war protesters and make them look bad! Because the anti-war folks are definitely not doing that to themselves already.
Posted by: Pat at March 06, 2008 02:06 PM (c6S8U)
26
Hey, I just had a thought. Wouldn't a small bomb placed in front of a window take out the entire window? In the pictures, only the bottom part has been destroyed. If it is shatterproof glass, is shatterproof glass that damage- resistant?
Posted by: chicagodudewhotrades at March 06, 2008 02:07 PM (Efj0b)
27
Good analysis, Bob! See you in March!
Posted by: Snooper at March 06, 2008 02:11 PM (U01dQ)
28
"Anti-war groups, in general, tend towards the non-violent..."
Since when has this nonsense been true? One of these "non-violent" types concluded an argument with me by taking a swing at me. He had to be held back by his friends. During that same event i saw a half-dozen of these "non-violent" types menace a fifteen year-old girl, knock her to the ground and tear up her sign.
a year ago, a fossil from the original SDS started a new version. It's kinda silly i know, but what purpose is served by creating a new "SDS" when the current "anti-war" movement has all bases well-covered, especially the campuses? The only thing this "anti-war" movement misses that those nostalgic for the SDS of olde might note, is the sort of vile domestic terrorism of the SDS offshoot, the Weather Underground.
Has anyone seen the Weather Underground documentary? You know, the one nominated for an Oscar and winner of the Palm D'Or? It's a celebration of "anti-war" violence and a lamentation that the current anti-war movement isn't earnest enough to start killing "pigs" again.
Not only are they not "generally non-violent", they are slaveringly eager for the opportunity to become violent.
Even if we dismiss that this was in any way cordinated amonst several people, individual progressives have been quite active in committing violent acts for "Social Justice".
Andrew Mickel shot a cop in the back of the head after leaving his manifesto on IndyMedia.
Matthew Marren sought out and shot an Air Force member before shooting himself and leaving behind a letter explaining that it was an act against the government.
Two years ago, "peace" protesters conducted a drive-by shooting on a Denver recruiting facility.
Honestly, that was nonsense what you wrote there.
You should check the NYC Indymedia, They're not hedging their bets on this at all:
"Bringing the war home, a hooded bicyclist bombed the Times Square Armed Forces recruiting station this morning. There has been no statement regarding this thus far, and perhaps there will not be, although in this case, perhaps the medium is the message."
They even have a theory on the linkage of this and the other two past explosions:
"The New York Times is reporting that police suspect a connection between this attack and similar blasts outside the British Consulate (May 5, 2005) and the Mexican Consulate in New York (Oct. 26, 2007). Unmentioned in the NY Times coverage: the British Consulate bombing occurred on the day of the UK's general elections, during which pro-war PM Tony Blair won a third term; the Mexican Consulate blast was on the one-year anniversary of the murder of Indymedia journalist Brad Will, a killing widely attributed to PRI-backed paramilitaries."
Posted by: albnorgrimex at March 06, 2008 02:12 PM (jCNT0)
29
At ABC news comments the liberals are chanting the same thing. That it was an inside job.
Their claim is that an anti-military hate crime is actually the military commiting a crime against themselves, in order to frame liberals and discredit their views. They believe this attack to be anti-liberal.
Weird.
Posted by: brando at March 06, 2008 02:15 PM (qzOby)
30
"Wouldn't a small bomb placed in front of a window take out the entire window?"
Obviously not.
It looks like safety glass to me. Safety glass is a laminated glass made by sandwiching a thin, flexible plastic sheet between two layers of glass. When safety glass is broken, the plastic layer tends to hold the fragments together instead of letting them fly everywhere. Safety glass also shatters into smaller pieces with fewer sharp points than ordinary plate glass. The results are consistent with what is shown in the photos of the recruiting office. This picture shows another example.
Posted by: Pat at March 06, 2008 02:20 PM (c6S8U)
31
Isn't the ammo can alone enough to make some pretty lethal shrapnel?
Generally, no. Ammo boxes aren't designed to turn into bombs if enough ammo 'cooks off' : traditional metal ones have weaknesses at the seams to allow gases to vent without really making a messy detonation, while plastic ones will just rip the rings and hinges off and rocket a plastic piece into the air. They could do some damage, but not much compared to a traditional pipebomb or even a well-designed suitcase.
That's not to say the bomber meant for it to be less-lethal. You don't need much technical knowledge to make a very basic bomb, and I expect he or she thought it would do well enough damage for their purposes and didn't care past that point.
My bet is that the case, and for that matter the target and likely the explosive and trigger device (gunpowder rather than homemade stuff), were all chosen for the symbolism.
Posted by: gattsuru at March 06, 2008 02:22 PM (X3kcN)
32
Should name this site "Dumbass Neocon Bastards".
Posted by: Hymietown Boy at March 06, 2008 04:45 PM (9PuVT)
33
Glad you could stop by, HB. Please come back if you have any more brilliant insights to share.
Posted by: Pat at March 06, 2008 05:05 PM (0suEp)
34
False flag attack to divert people's attention away from the collapsing economy until the rich have managed to sell all their stocks and bonds.
Posted by: Bubba at March 06, 2008 05:18 PM (nhFyu)
35
For the people questioning my credibility, I'm an officer of Marines. I've seen plenty of craziness that would make my theory plausible. Not everyone who enlists is a model citizen or even quite right in the head, though I'm not in the least saying it's a significant number. Most are the heros you expect them to be, just not 100%. More like 99.99%. But 0.01% of 200,000 is enough to have a few demented people out there.
You know the old saying, tell it to the Marines, they've seen everything.
In the end, it doesn't much matter why they did it. It only matters that they get caught. And punished.
Posted by: Skyler at March 06, 2008 05:39 PM (xakVm)
36
"False flag attack to divert people's attention away from the collapsing economy until the rich have managed to sell all their stocks and bonds."
Whatever you say, Bubba.
I do have a few questions about this theory.
1. Who, exactly, is supposed to have carried out this "false flag attack" on behalf of "the rich"?
2. Who, exactly, is "the rich"? Everyone who owns any stock or bonds?
3. Just how long does it take to sell stocks and bonds, anyway? I was under the impression that such transactions could be done in a matter of minutes. Why haven't "the rich" already sold their stocks and bonds, if that's what they want to do?
4. When was it determined that the economy is "collapsing"? I missed it.
5. How will this event "divert people's attention" from the economic collapse if the news media are reporting said collapse? Or are they in on the conspiracy too? If the news media have already promised to keep quiet about the collapse, then why is a false-flag bombing necessary?
6. If people's attention isn't distracted, exactly what will happen?
7. What have you been smoking, and where can I get some?
Posted by: Pat at March 06, 2008 06:19 PM (0suEp)
37
Skyler, are you claiming that there are more mentally unstable people in the military than in the civilian population? I don't think there is any evidence to support such an assertion.
Posted by: Pat at March 06, 2008 06:21 PM (0suEp)
38
"Everyone who visits a recruitment office does so voluntarily, to obtain information so that they can make their own decision about whether to volunteer or not. How, exactly, would this lead to recruits being angry at their recruiters? Angry about what?"
You seem to think someone who would plant a bomb is rational and not prone to overreaction to events real or imagined.
I suggest you revisit your premise.
And Bob: "This was an act of domestic terrorism."
I suggest you look up the definition of the term (USA PATRIOT Section 802). Without knowing the intention, you can't make that determination. It could just as easily be simple mindless vandalism for all we know now. Keep you bugbears in check.
Posted by: Overreaction Central at March 06, 2008 06:22 PM (V+jPs)
39
Skyler is right. Saying that you are still looking for your recruiter is a cliche among veterans. It is a sort of short hand bonding ritual.
Posted by: Lifeofthemind at March 06, 2008 06:30 PM (qhNk+)
40
"You seem to think someone who would plant a bomb is rational and not prone to overreaction to events real or imagined."
Nope. I'm sure the person who planted the bomb was irrational. And we already know about lots of irrational people who hate the military and are in the habit of using recruiting offices as the target of their hostility. I see no need to invent, out of whole cloth, a theory that this attack was carried out by a disgruntled member of the military. There is no evidence whatsoever to support such a notion.
Posted by: Pat at March 06, 2008 06:42 PM (0suEp)
41
Pat, of course not. I was providing hypothetical numbers. But it could be the case, I just don't know.
Posted by: Skyler at March 06, 2008 06:45 PM (xakVm)
42
Re: rapid's complaint of 12:54 and CY's answer of 12:59 -
The comment that rapid thinks got deleted was actually posted over here. It wasn't deleted, he was simply looking for it in the wrong comment thread.
Glad to be of service. :-)
Posted by: Robin Munn at March 06, 2008 07:14 PM (vcwY0)
43
I've already heard attempts by media to downplay it by calling nis "vandalism"
Posted by: Sam at March 06, 2008 10:58 PM (qetyY)
44
>How many recruits are angry at their recruiters? I would bet this is at least as likely as an anti-war protester. And since an ammo can was used, this is probably not a bad bet.
Ammo cans are widely available at sporting goods stores and surplus stores and hardware stores and...
"False flag" ?? Occam's Razor is more likely.
Posted by: Barry at March 06, 2008 11:40 PM (aJtCl)
45
I note that anti-war wackos are now taking credit.
I believe that several helpings of crow are in order for some of the commenters here.
Posted by: C-C-G at March 06, 2008 11:42 PM (43PDP)
46
All things considered New York is over reacting. Clearly no one got hurt, or was even meant to get hurt. This is a patriotic outcry against the what the american institution has become. Remember, just because the news reports a story one way does not mean it's the right way.
Posted by: iraq vet at March 07, 2008 12:29 AM (hocia)
47
Skyler: For the people questioning my credibility, I'm an officer of Marines.
I call bull. You are not a Marine, much less an officer. Who is your S-3?
Posted by: Fen at March 07, 2008 12:56 AM (huzqX)
48
It was terrorism and it was committed by anti-war activists. Big surprise. From the Daily News:
"Happy New Year, We Did It," declared a sign held by a man who was photographed with the placard outside the recruiting center sometime before the early-morning blast. Cops were investigating whether he was the elusive bomber.
Copies of the photo and a 32-page missive that railed against the Iraq war and was signed "David Karne" were sent to nine congressional offices, a source briefed on the probe said.
Posted by: Zach Foreman at March 07, 2008 03:53 AM (lHN8H)
49
Who is my S-3? What an absurd question. How would that help you know whether I'm a Marine? If I said Major John Doe, would that even mean anything to you? And what would that indicate anyway? My point is valid regardless of my credentials: People should be more careful in making accusations until they know the facts. I was simply pointing out that it's not a far fetched idea at all that a disgruntled recruit was getting revenge on his recruiter.
The danger of jumping to conclusions is that if you jump in the wrong direction, then in the future the guilty party will be able to claim that everyone is maligning them again. We should be a bit more patient and wait for a little more evidence before condemning people and organizations for specific acts.
There's plenty of stuff to legitimately hate these violent and disruptive anti-war organizations. We don't need to look too hard for that. I'd rather that we know they've done something before piling on top or else they will be able to wave a bloody flag in our faces the next time they do something bad.
Someone has been emailing me about this and I'll copy what I told her:
I have personally seen a Marine who, through an unfortunate admin error, was not given his enlistment bonus but didn't even tell anyone. He destroyed three jet engines, wrote enough fraudulent checks to cover the amount of his bonus, and went back home to mommy and daddy until I called them and told them he was about to be declared a deserter. I had a master sergeant in my squadron get thrown in prison for having sex with his elementary school-age children because his wife was sick and he "had to do something to relieve his urges." While I've been in, I've seen a Lance Corporal on my base steal an attack aircraft and fly it around southern California for a few hours (his name was LCpl Foot, you can look that up, and I was the duty officer that day). I've had drug dealers and gang members in my section. I've had a Marine threaten to kill himself and the commanding officer so he wouldn't have to go to Iraq (sadly, he succeeded). The commanding officer of another logistics squadron was murdered by a disgruntled Marine in Camp Pendleton back in 87 or so. Around the same time, a Marine went crazy and started shooting people on the shooting range.
In the news, an army soldier has just in this recent war rolled a grenade into the tent of his officers. Do I need to continue? Shall we also go into Arthur and Michael Walker, Lonetree and other traitors and spies? I think it's fascinating that so many people here think that it's virtually impossible that someone in the military could be involved. It's not inconceivable that one of those kooks went through the "busiest" recruiting station in the country.
There are plenty of kooks in the military. Yes, there are likely more who are not in the military, but my point is that before jumping to conclusions it's best to be patient and learn a bit more about who the guilty bastards are.
Posted by: Skyler at March 07, 2008 05:55 AM (xakVm)
50
It's way too much like the Weather Underground. How do we know they haven't kept their organization over the decades--just in case we got an "evil" President as they claim we have now?
Posted by: Al in St. Lou at March 07, 2008 08:22 AM (l5yFx)
51
Do I need to continue?
No, because you are trying to prove a point that was never in question. Of course there are some bad and crazy people in the military. No one in this thread has claimed otherwise.
But when you hear hoofbeats, you should assume it's horses, not zebras. This was an attack on a military recruiting office, something we've seen many times in the past. Such attacks are invariably carried out by anti-war activists. I'm not aware of a single instance in which a member of the military was responsible. That doesn't mean that it will never happen -- but your insistence that the two scenarios are equally likely is simply not supported by history.
An initial assumption that anti-war activists were responsible was not "jumping to a conclusion". It was a perfectly reasonable working hypothesis, and one that has apparently been borne out by the evidence.
Posted by: Pat at March 07, 2008 08:22 AM (0suEp)
52
Violence should ALWAYS be state sanctioned and always rationalizeable as to diffuse individual responsibility..My Lai, Kent State, any collateral damage in Iraq, etc..
Posted by: chris lee at March 07, 2008 10:53 AM (6x0Nb)
53
It's nice to see the Lefties show their true colors for a change.
Posted by: Techie at March 07, 2008 11:10 AM (AV8Z6)
54
Rebellion is always illegal in the THIRD person, NEVER in the FIRST. paraphrasing Ben Franklin
Posted by: chris lee at March 07, 2008 12:45 PM (6x0Nb)
55
the weather underground was a group dedicated to making a statement using violence but violence not directed towards people. where did you get that report its totally false. as far as i know besides the one accident no one was ever killed in their mission. they were a great group of people.
Posted by: Nathan White at March 07, 2008 01:24 PM (EG0er)
56
the bomber is my new hero.
revolution.
all you "wackos" keep driving your suv's, keep sheltering your children from the rest of the world, and most importantly shop shop shop.
Posted by: Nathan White at March 07, 2008 01:26 PM (EG0er)
57
Real empathy and "compassion" would take a more christian view of certain situations. You know the "splinter in someone's eye vs the two by four in your own"..State sponsored violence is inherently problematic. I personally remember the story early in the current conflict where they bombed some palace THINKING Sadaam was there only to later claim he wasn't, brushing aside the innocent civilians killed in the effort. It's hard to always swallow the "ends justifies the means" rhetoric.
Posted by: chris lee at March 07, 2008 01:33 PM (6x0Nb)
58
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HWLnDUWJ8do
Posted by: chris lee at March 07, 2008 01:46 PM (6x0Nb)
59
It's nice to see Chris enjoys talking to himself.
Posted by: Techie at March 07, 2008 04:37 PM (AV8Z6)
Posted by: chris lee at March 07, 2008 04:53 PM (6x0Nb)
61
Maybe Chris can pull out the dusk-orb or cannibalism arguments from a few threads back. I'm actually glad to see the left jump behind this behavior. It's a lot more straightforward than the "we support/don't support the troops" concept.
My 2 cents on this bombing is that it's emblematic and also a crime.
Posted by: brando at March 07, 2008 05:03 PM (rDQC9)
62
You know I'm interested in what your leaders mean by "compassionate conservative" in looking at Malkin's blog, Limbaugh's program, Coulter's books, the comments on this site, even many of the counter protesters at the Peace marches, I have ALWAYS encountered the same snarky, bitchy name calling and squelching of constructive give and take. I am not saying that there are left wing reactionaries who shout down opposing viewpoints but right now I am talking to people like Brando and Techie to start.
Posted by: chris lee at March 07, 2008 05:13 PM (6x0Nb)
63
Skyler. I will not call your service into question. If you are, then you are, if you are not, then you have to live with a lie.
My only question is this. Why would you assume that it is/was a service member that did this, when there are many more likely candidates? Calling the service into question is not something I know a lot of service members to do.
Chris, you are an idiot. But I will die making sure you can continue to be an idiot.
Posted by: Matt at March 07, 2008 06:10 PM (9V6Vj)
64
Matt, thank you again for your service. I know I've said it before, but it's hard to say that too much.
Posted by: C-C-G at March 07, 2008 06:30 PM (lUnc9)
65
C, Thanks. But as I have said before. Do not thank me. The Corps thanks me twice a month.
Posted by: Matt at March 07, 2008 06:39 PM (9V6Vj)
66
Matt..thanks for illustrating my point. Where are your Allen Blloms, William F Buckleys and milton Friedmans? Now it's rude insults like Matt.
Posted by: chris lee at March 07, 2008 09:35 PM (qTV/d)
Posted by: chris lee at March 07, 2008 09:53 PM (qTV/d)
68
"Now it's rude insults like Matt."
Son, that was not an insult. It was a statement.
Posted by: Matt at March 07, 2008 10:09 PM (9V6Vj)
69
People don't see what they "
SEE" they see what they BELIEVE...
Posted by: chris lee at March 07, 2008 11:20 PM (qTV/d)
70
actually I think alot of you are phonies a nd I think Gore Vidal was his nemesis...esposing even WFB's phoniness...
Posted by: chris lee at March 07, 2008 11:24 PM (qTV/d)
71
Riiiiiiiiiiiiight, Chris.
You just curl up in your little fantasy world if you want. The yellow submarine will be by to pick you up pretty soon.
The rest of us will do just fine without you.
Posted by: C-C-G at March 07, 2008 11:32 PM (43PDP)
72
"actually I think alot of you are phonies"
Ok, how about you man up and say what you mean instead of tippy toeing around it.
If you mean phony about who I am, then you sir are dead wrong. Feel free to join me on SOFNET. Or if you do not want to get hammered by the members there, feel free to email me at bear23991@yahoo.com where I will send you a copy of my SRB edited for OPSEC and you can go ahead and finish chewing on that foot you stuck in your mouth.
Posted by: Matt at March 07, 2008 11:33 PM (9V6Vj)
Posted by: chris lee at March 08, 2008 05:07 AM (qTV/d)
74
You throw out one hell of an argument. Not so much.
Posted by: Matt at March 08, 2008 06:46 PM (9V6Vj)
75
Thank you so much for the link and for the additional information!
Posted by: LindaSoG at March 09, 2008 08:51 AM (GBBmd)
76
I have ALWAYS encountered the same snarky, bitchy name calling and squelching of constructive give and take.
Really, chris? I ask because you were constructively engaged here, and your reaction was to try a couple of dodges and, upon them failing, to disappear. And yet now you claim that you ALWAYS have found bitchy name calling and no give and take. Perhaps that's because give and take requires that both parties have something to give and you don't. Remember this: the common denominator of all your dysfunctional relationships is you.
Posted by: Pablo at March 09, 2008 09:07 AM (yTndK)
77
Yes, Pablo and the common denominator of my FUNCTIONAL relationships is me, too. What's your point? Are you saying that the derisive tone of contemporary conservative opinion is justified by the unworthiness of liberals?
Posted by: chris lee at March 09, 2008 11:01 AM (qTV/d)
78
No, chris, I'm saying that you have an obvious perception problem and that you may be a walking, talking self-fulfilling prophecy. I think you see so much derision because you earn it, especially given that you are so unable to recognize, relate or respond to sincere, substantive argument that you decide it doesn't exist.
Posted by: Pablo at March 09, 2008 11:15 AM (yTndK)
79
actually I think alot of you are phonies
Is that the derisive tone of contemporary liberal opinion I see there, chris? I think it's missing a "RACIST!!1!one!!" and maybe a "HOMOPHOBE!!eleven!!"
Oh, and Halliburton.
Posted by: Pablo at March 09, 2008 11:19 AM (yTndK)
80
Pablo, Good assessment of Chris.
In simpler terms. If one person calls you an idiot, they may be an idiot, if twenty people call you an idiot, then it is time to take a long hard look at yourself.
Matt, kicking the darkness till it bleeds light.
Posted by: Matt at March 09, 2008 12:25 PM (9V6Vj)
81
Pablo, screaming "Racist!!!!11!!!!!" or "Warmonger!!!11!!" or "Nazi!!!!!11!!!!" (and always finishing with "HALLIBURTON!!!!!!!!" is what those on the left consider "substantive debate."
Therefore, because we haven't been screaming those things, Chris thinks we haven't been engaging him substantively.
Posted by: C-C-G at March 09, 2008 12:41 PM (XoKp7)
82
I claim that terrorism's bad, and also a crime. Chris disagrees completely.
That's one more concept to add to the list.
I really liked a few threads back when Chris claimed that his insane arguments were not based on flawed concepts, but because he writes his ideas in a hurry, and on his friend's faulty computer.
Faulty Computer, huh? Well then, by all means, go bananas.
Posted by: brando at March 09, 2008 01:04 PM (rDQC9)
83
"I really liked a few threads back when Chris claimed that his insane arguments were not based on flawed concepts, but because he writes his ideas in a hurry, and on his friend's faulty computer."
I have seen a few (be it very few) level headed leftists, but I tend to think of them as Conservatives in denial.
But the left has never been good at faulting themselves for their shortcomings. It is human to want to blame others for your faults. But one of the key resources in the learning process is knowing when to say, "Oh I am sorry, I was wrong."
Then saying. "But now I know I was wrong, and I will do my best to correct that failing."
Posted by: Matt at March 09, 2008 02:44 PM (9V6Vj)
84
Perception problem Brando? Did I say "terrorism" is NOT bad? I used this incident as an opportunity to make a statement that violence, state sponsored violence is "problematic" and not so easily reduced to binaries. The American "rebels" were terrorists, so was the confederate south.
Posted by: chris lee at March 09, 2008 07:45 PM (qTV/d)
85
Chris, what "state" sponsors terrorism?
Would you be willing to send the US Armed Forces to that "state" to stamp out terrorists?
Oh, and which side in the Revolutionary War beheaded innocent journalists after capture? How about the Civil War?
Posted by: C-C-G at March 09, 2008 08:30 PM (XoKp7)
86
I love it when people ignore something they can not argue against. You see you are failing in one area, and instead of addressing it, you move onto another idiocy.
Posted by: Matt at March 09, 2008 09:07 PM (9V6Vj)
87
The POINT is "state sponsored" violence is called something else, but the outcome is still civilian death. Nothing is good about beheading people, nothing is good about haveing your skin burnt off in a napalm attack, nothing is good about being "collateral damage" in a bunker buster attack, nothing is good about being wiped out in the westward expansion of the 19th century U.S. It's the "rationalization" that makes all the difference in the world ,from the viewpoint of the "poi-petrator".
Posted by: chris lee at March 09, 2008 09:07 PM (qTV/d)
88
You see you are failing in one area, and instead of addressing it, you move onto another idiocy.
Which is what I'd call a dodge. And chris wonders why people get derisive with him. There you have it.
Posted by: Pablo at March 09, 2008 09:34 PM (yTndK)
89
Oh, so now any "state sponsored" violence is terrorism, Chris? Would you rather we had let Hitler take over Europe and Hirohito take over Asia? Were the Allies "terrorists" for using military force to stop them?
You're digging yourself ever deeper, and forgetting the first rule of debate: when you find yourself in a hole, stop digging.
Posted by: C-C-G at March 09, 2008 09:35 PM (XoKp7)
90
"The POINT is "state sponsored" violence is called something else, but the outcome is still civilian death."
No bright box. The point is, in one type of violence, innocent death is avoided, and not reason it is done, the other type it is the desired effect.
Yes civilians die during war, it is a bad thing, but sometimes it can not be avoided, but we do try to avoid it. Terrorists attempt to cause as many civilian deaths as they can. Big difference buddy.
Posted by: Matt at March 09, 2008 09:43 PM (9V6Vj)
91
Indeed, Matt, and that goes back to my earlier question to Chris... which he hasn't answered yet.
Which side in the Revolutionary War beheaded innocent journalists, Chris? Which side in the Civil War did?
Posted by: C-C-G at March 09, 2008 09:49 PM (XoKp7)
92
CCG- What are you talking about? There were atrocities in both the Civil War AND Revolutionary War..The Founding Fathers signed the Declaration of Independence under threat of disembowielment..you seem to be advancing OUR "gentlemanly, bureacratic" violence against THEIR brutal, primitve violence. It's all coercive injury and mayhem toward a political aim. Who's AIM is just is a function of the viewpoint involved. Napalm attacks, slaugher of Native American children in the 1800's, how is that an attempt to avoid civilian death?
Posted by: chris lee at March 10, 2008 04:50 AM (qTV/d)
93
Okay, Chris, prove your statements. Give me verifiable proof of those atrocities against civilians... meaning something other than a post on DailyKOS.
Posted by: C-C-G at March 10, 2008 08:01 AM (XoKp7)
94
CCG..I recommend you do some reading of Harper's Weekly Civil war reporting, I used to sell antique issues. Amongst other things you'll find stories of soldiers burying other soldiers alive, as far as the Revolutionary War, do your own research as well, not a pretty picture what was done in that era on both sides.
Posted by: chris lee at March 10, 2008 08:37 AM (6x0Nb)
95
..as far as napalm and agent orange used against the North Vietnamese, and US soldiers killing Native Americans do your own research, I don't work for you and could care less whether you are convinced of what I say or not. If it inspires you to look a little further fine, if not so be it.
Posted by: chris lee at March 10, 2008 09:01 AM (6x0Nb)
96
I asked for specific articles, Chris, a vague "go read Harper's" won't do it, because if I don't find anything, you'll just say that I didn't read the right ones.
I presume you graduated from high school, so give me an article reference as you would if you were putting it in the bibliography of a paper.
Posted by: C-C-G at March 10, 2008 08:06 PM (XoKp7)
97
That's my cue CCG, the topic is exhausted..you've "cornered"me into admitting all of my assertions are groundless fantasies pulled out of my a**.
Yossarian: That's some catch that Cath-22.
Doc Daneeka: It's the best there is.
Sweet dreams everyone

Posted by: Chris lee at March 10, 2008 08:19 PM (qTV/d)
98
Thanks for admitting it, Chris,
We have some lovely parting gifts for you. Unfortunately, a good reputation is not among them.
Oh, and have a nice day.
Posted by: C-C-G at March 10, 2008 09:19 PM (XoKp7)
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March 05, 2008
Savages
I've watched for several days the story that has grown out of a short, grainy video that shows a Marine in Iraq throwing a puppy to its death.
The act shown in the video, whether it shows a real sadistic act of animal abuse or a Marine with a warped sense of humor throwing a stuffed animal, is sickening.
Perhaps even more sickening is the mob mentality that has overtaken some of those who have viewed the video, who took it upon themselves to post the names and home address of the Marine alleged to be in the video and that of his family members, inviting other Web vigilantes to commit violent acts against them.
It is understandable to be outraged by the act shown whether is if fake or real, but does any rational human being think that an appropriate response to such an act would be the rape or murder of innocent family members, as some have called for? As for the Marine at the center of the controversy, he is currently
under protective custody because of threats against his life.
There seems to be far more outrage over this video of animal abuse than far more sadistic and frequent reports of
greater acts of brutality committed against human civilians by militias, terrorists, insurgents, and criminals in Iraq. I wonder why that is.
Where are the Internet detectives on Digg when al Qaeda in Iraq shows video of a car bomb that wipes out innocent families? Why are these Youtube and blog denizens not clamoring to discover the identities and home addresses of Islamic fundamentalist thugs that film decapitations and torture?
Sadly, there is far less outrage for these human victims, and occasionally, there are even attempts to rationalize their inhuman brutality.
I'm sure that if they were asked about it today, every politician in Washington would tell you that they were "shocked and appalled" at the actions of the Marine in the video, and yet, most Congressional Democrats, including Presidential candidates Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama, would help set the stage for far worse in Iraq with a headlong, unconditional withdrawal that would make such depravity far more possible.
They seek to knowingly and willfully abandon Iraq to those would would do far worse than throw that nation's civilians down a ravine, because they think the war costs too much, or because it is unpopular with their constituents.
So many of the same people who have whipped up so much outrage over a dog are indifferent to greater depredations visited upon Iraqi women and children... and yet they claim that the Marine in the video is the savage among us.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
03:27 PM
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1
Here's what it is: Go to a movie. Watch 50,000 Marines wiped out by aliens. "Wow! Cool!" But if one collie dies, everyone turns to tapioca.
Posted by: CMAR II at March 05, 2008 04:36 PM (1DdTz)
2
"So many of the same people who have whipped up so much outrage over a dog are indifferent to greater depredations visited upon Iraqi women and children... and yet they claim that the Marine in the video is the savage among us."
..........
...........the inherent truth of journalism:
80 thousand crisped at Chernobyl, or 300 torched in Chechnya is too hard to wrap the mind around..but one child napalmed, or one puppy is a personalized view of violence. THose who photograph and write these stories KNOW this--they look for ways to ignore your comment (quoted above) and graphic images (in word or pics) of the single victim.
Earlier post--heh heh...a concealed lawyer. Too ripe!
Posted by: properly scared (but southern!) at March 05, 2008 05:09 PM (7oYxf)
3
Now al Qaeda knows what to do: Start making videos of English-speaking terrorists dressed as American GIs killing puppies, kittens, tweety birds, koalas, and ducklings, and our entire fat-assed country will rise up and demand we disband the armed forces.
A nation of inexorable morons.
Posted by: Tom W. at March 06, 2008 03:02 AM (u1Y9b)
4
It's really simple, Bob.
Marines = bad.
Fighters against Boosh's military-industrial complex = good.
Most lefties don't have much more intellectual capacity than that. That's why they don't think, they emote. Takes fewer brain cells.
Posted by: C-C-G at March 06, 2008 09:39 AM (43PDP)
5
"There seems to be far more outrage over this video of animal abuse than far more sadistic and frequent reports of greater acts of brutality committed against human civilians by militias, terrorists, insurgents, and criminals in Iraq. I wonder why that is."
Because those innocents won't fight back while an Al Q operative may very well chop your head off. Picking on those that won't fight back is boorish but par for course for many cowardly denizens of the interwebs.
Posted by: Dan Irving at March 06, 2008 09:50 AM (zw8QA)
6
Not to support threats to this guy's family at all, but how about that we hold our marines and our side to a higher standard than the sectarians and insurgents in Iraq? We actually don't expect our side to be willfully and needlessly cruel while that's what we've come to expect of the other side. Let's face it, one of the now many reasons stated that we're over there is to bring a decent, stable democracy that is kinder and more humane that the one we displaced. Acts like this, and what happened at Gitmo and Abu Grhaib, while completely different in scale, stand out because it's US doing it and we don't think we're like that.
Oh and the lefties want us to lose and are pro-terrorism bladiddy-bla-tinfoil-hat-radio-transmitter-in-fillings-bla.
Posted by: rapid at March 06, 2008 12:09 PM (c7CKN)
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Rapid-- how the HELL is urging physical violence against people who are SUSPECTED of being related to him "holding our Marines to higher standards?"
What kind of psychotic idiot would think the Marines AREN'T trying to find out if the video is real, and if it is, who did it?
Them: Kidnap little boys for ransom, killing the kid if it's not payed, major source of income.
Us: One idiot may have thrown a puppy off a cliff.
...
And the folks saying "there's a imbalance of outrage here" are getting yelled at?
Posted by: Foxfier at March 06, 2008 03:18 PM (s2ydv)
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No US MArine should never be criticized because they are better than al Qaeda.
OKay......
Posted by: John Ryan at March 07, 2008 09:10 AM (TcoRJ)
9
What, John Ryan, did you get banned from AoS and the obtuseness was set further in?
Posted by: Techie at March 07, 2008 11:19 AM (AV8Z6)
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It makes one wonder if the left values the lives of animals more than the lives of humans.
Posted by: George Bruce at March 07, 2008 12:44 PM (tj2NC)
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Tell us rapid, what happened at gitmo? Other than the prisoners gaining 20 pounds each because of the well balanced and delicious meals?
Why is it the left will believe and support anything a terrorist says but when it comes to our Marines they never give them the benefit of the doubt?
Posted by: Capitalist Infidel at March 09, 2008 05:38 AM (Lgw9b)
12
In "All Quiet on the Western Front," the men get used to killing people and seeing dying men, but it rips them through and through to see the agony of wounded pack horses after an artillery barrage.
Here, the soldier has gone the other direction towards Sadism to animals.
Posted by: Tertium Quid at March 10, 2008 11:11 AM (HqqaH)
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Down to One
A little over a month ago, shortly before taking my concealed carry class here in North Carolina, I put up a post asking for advice on a carry gun, something small enough to carry concealed, but large enough to shoot accurately without discomfort.
What I learned during the class is that
getting a concealed lawyer was perhaps my best bet, "if I could only find one small enough to shove in a holster.”
As that wasn't practical, I was back once again to deciding on a sidearm.
After a lot of Internet research, and talking to fellow shooters, I'd narrowed down my choices to three sidearms: the Smith & Wesson M&P Compact, the Springfield Armory XD, and the Glock 23, all in 40 S&W caliber.
I went with the 40 S&W as a compromise between the higher magazine capacity of 9mm pistols and the bigger hole of the a .45 ACP.
I liked the subcompacts from Springfield Armory and Glock, but didn't like the shorter sight radius or the fact that my pinky finger curled under the magazine. I also realized that because of my lifestyle, a slightly larger gun was not a limitation in where I could carry. The Smith, while an interesting design and a handgun that fit my hand very well, was simply too new of a design for me to feel comfortable staking my life on.
So it was down to the service model Springfield XD and the Glock 23, and from there, it was simply a matter of what fit my hand best, and which might be cheaper to shoot.
The winner?
Both the Glock and the XD fit my hand well, and in the end, the availability of a
.22-caliber conversion kit sealed the deal in favor of the
Glock 23.
While the addition of a conversion kit means more initial capital outlay, it also means that I can afford to practice far more frequently over the long term, an important consideration for a shooter on a budget. To be honest, if the XD had a reliable conversion kit available, I probably would have selected it, as it fit my hand just as well and I would have preferred the XDs fully-supported chamber.
Thoughts?
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
01:10 PM
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1
The Glock is a great choice.
My old glock 21 will feed a box of rocks without a hitch.
I would skip the 22 conversion though. The experience is so different that I think the practice far less valuable.
Posted by: iamnot at March 05, 2008 02:14 PM (onj4J)
2
Glock 26 here. Makes a good compact pocket pistol. All Glocks are fit to carry. I think the 22 conversion is a good idea. It changes the gun, and the firing report, but allows you to focus on gun handling without flinching at the costs.
Posted by: bill-tb at March 05, 2008 03:07 PM (7evkT)
3
I got my bride a little hammerless .38 snubby for Valentine's Day. It's all what you're comfortable with.
Posted by: Tony B at March 05, 2008 03:15 PM (187Jq)
4
You can't go wrong with a Glock, and the midsized 19/23 are the most versatile and easy to use for most. I'd say stay with the G19 in 9mm since it is cheaper to practice with and live targets can't tell the difference when good quality defensive ammo is used, but rock on if the .40 makes you feel more confident.
The 22 conversion kits have a pretty spotty reliability reputation, but at least they will keep your malfunction clearance skills fresh. I spend a lot more time practicing presentation from concealment and dry firing than in live fire, so I don't feel cheap 9mm FMJ ammo is too expensive to use for practice. Glocks will use Wolf just fine, and that is still <$180 for a 1000 delivered.
Posted by: karlj at March 05, 2008 03:38 PM (DRWi+)
5
Be sure to fit the conversion kit in the store, just in case.
Posted by: David at March 05, 2008 03:47 PM (cPLO6)
6
For some Glocks in 40 S&W I believe you can purchase a 9mm barrel which is easy to swap in and out. This would give you practice ammo which is cheaper than 40 S&W but more realistic than 22LR. That said, having 22LR for practicing the basics is a very, very good idea. Even cheaper would be a good Airsoft clone of the Glock. The manual if operations is identical. And, depending on local laws or your willingness to ignore them, you can practice in your basement.
Yours,
Wince
Posted by: Wince and Nod at March 05, 2008 05:19 PM (lhJxs)
7
+1 on airsoft. I do, in fact, use one in my backyard. For practicing tactics, movement and scenarios it's both cheaper and safer than .22. My airsoft G19 fits my kydex holsters as well as my real G19 does.
Posted by: karlj at March 05, 2008 06:01 PM (DRWi+)
8
Personally, I still favor the .45 ACP. Taurus makes a beautiful 1911 A-1 design weapon in stainless steel for well under $600. Guess what pistol special forces carry? 1911 A-1. The reason? Reliability, accuracy and stopping power. The .45ACP is subsonic, which enhances accuracy. If you have a heavy frame, the Taurus will conceal very well. I shoot 3" groups at 15 yards, which is all you can expect in a heavy caliber pistol. The recoil of the Taurus is very light, even with 230 grain bullets. If you carry a weapon with a dark finish, the holster will eventually mar the finish of the weapon.
Posted by: jackv at March 05, 2008 09:43 PM (1UmrJ)
9
I'd recommend skipping the conversion kit, if that's your main selling point go with the XD. I've talked to a couple of people about the conversion kit and it turned out to be a jam-o-matic. Basically a waste of cash.
If you're looking for something cheaper to feed, go with the a 9mm. You've fired mine, so you're familiar with the XD. If you're worried about stopping power, go with a +P+ load (which the XD is rated for) when you're loaded for home defense. That and remember to space out your groupings on a live target.
Watching Personal Defense TV last night and the "expert" said the actual stopping effectiveness of one shot varies very little unless you step up to the .50 cal. Then they demonstrated that the time difference between one and two shots into the same target was virtually nill.
Of course as your CC instructor said. If you aren't comfortable with it and haven't put a lot of practice in it won't do you any good. Which was one of the main selling points on the 9 for me.
Posted by: phineas g. at March 06, 2008 08:13 AM (CQcil)
10
I use a Glock 36 in .45ACP. Sure, it has less mag capacity but as they say "if you cain't hit 'em with the first 7 shots, what makes you think you can hit 'em with the second 7?" With a .45 you only need hit 'em onc't.
Posted by: Fred Ray at March 06, 2008 09:31 AM (PLPWV)
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One problem with .40 or .45 is over penetration. Best to know a good lawyer if you use one anywhere near other homes, cars etc.
9mm with hollow point rounds has plenty of stopping power and you can use FMJ ammo for practice. It's a personal choice, of course, but why practice with a round whose power and recoil is significantly different than the one you'll carry?
Posted by: molon labe at March 06, 2008 01:46 PM (GbgRr)
12
Good call. The mini Glocks are bullet proof - proven, reliable, and have a design others just can't match. I'll have to look into that .22 conversion kit. That could be a lot of fun!
Karl
Posted by: Karl at March 06, 2008 08:15 PM (COk0j)
13
I really do not like Glock. But that is a personal preference thing. I really do not think it is ergonomically friendly. Good choice not going with the XD. They are not made very well, and can be put together wrong. If you put it together wrong, then you have to send it to the factory, and puchase a replacement weapon, at reduced cost.
I am a big guy, so I really do not have a problem CCing my Kimber Custom Covert II. I also really like the HK USP .45.
Remember a few things here. Extreme shock rounds are a hoax. Hydros do not expand reliably. Federals HSTs are ok, but they only test in gel. In flesh they only expand .50 percent of the time. And the faster the round, the more it will open up, and the less it will penetrate.
Posted by: Matt at March 07, 2008 06:18 PM (9V6Vj)
14
Sorry, that should have read 50 percent of the time. not .50 percent. My bad, I hate not having an edit function.
Posted by: Matt at March 07, 2008 06:19 PM (9V6Vj)
15
All in all, you need to get something that YOU CAN HIT THE TARGET WITH. But I am sure you already know this. A hole in the chest from a 9mm is better than a hole in the arm from a .50AE.
Under stress your accuracy will degrade to about 40%. You need to have something you can shoot with when you can see straight.
Lastly remember one thing, NO ONE knows how they will react to a situation under stress. Training can help. But it is still not a positive. Before you carry, be sure that you are ready to kill someone, or that weapon WILL kill you.
Good luck brother. It is good to be a sheepdog.
Posted by: Matt at March 07, 2008 06:38 PM (9V6Vj)
16
"That and remember to space out your groupings on a live target."
No, hydrostatic shock is a hoax.
Posted by: Matt at March 07, 2008 06:45 PM (9V6Vj)
17
I'd go with the Springfield XD. I've got a Glock 23 (.40 S&W) with Tru-Dot night sights that I carry most of the time but if I was to do it over again I'd go with the XD. The XD has more safety features and the trigger is much better than the Glock. I bought a Sig P229 in .357 Sig but I had to send it back because it shot way low from the factory, something was wrong with it. I was in the middle of trying to qualify for my concealed carry permit in Iowa at the time and only had 30 days and it was going to take at least 6 weeks before it came back. My dealer gave me my money back and I bought the Glock 23 as it's replacement. If time hadn't been an issue I would have kept the Sig. The Glock has been very reliable but the trigger just sucks in comparison.
Posted by: Brent at March 07, 2008 09:12 PM (anfwE)
18
"The XD has more safety features"
Ok, I will give you that. The XD has two buttons, the Glock has one.
"I had to send it back because it shot way low from the factory,"
Never in my ten years in the Corps have I ever actually seen someone not hit center because there weapon was messed up from the factory. Check your grip, and your sight alignment. Just because one grip works well on one weapon, does not mean the grip will be the same on another. Remember recoil takes the path of least resistance. This will throw your shots off.
Posted by: Matt at March 07, 2008 10:14 PM (9V6Vj)
19
It was definitely the gun, not the shooter, especially since 4 people all had the same exact results with it. It shot so low that even if you put the bottom of the front sight just above the top of the rear sight it would still shoot nearly 18 inches low at 20 yds. One guy that I let shoot it was practicing for deer season with his big Ruger and he was deadly accurate at 50 yds. He couldn't hit anything with my Sig. That gun is long gone now, it happened back in 2000.
Posted by: Brent at March 08, 2008 12:18 AM (anfwE)
20
Ok cool. As I said, one thing will work for one weapon, but not the other.
For example.
I have big hands. Now when firing my Kimber, I have to overlap my palms to keep on, but if I do this with my USP .45 Tac I shoot right center. If I do this with my 92FS I shoot low right, USP .40 (smaller than the .45 Tac) dead low. My dad who is also a big guy (go figure) has this same problem. Changed up the grip, shot dead on with all of em. Each weapon fires differently. No two fire the same when they are of a different make. Hell, even sometimes the same make will fire different. You can't change the gun (without spending money) so change the way you shoot.
I know the gun is gone now. But do ya smell what I am stepping in?
But yeah. I guess there are lemons for cars, there can be lemons for firearms as well.
Posted by: Matt at March 08, 2008 01:31 AM (9V6Vj)
21
Since a Glock compact was one of my recommendations back when you first brought up this subject, I can only say I'm happy with your choice. Be sure to shoot at least 300 rounds through it before trusting it as a carry gun. If you have any problems with it, first try switching ammo, then try switching to a new magazine. Reliability is the first requirement of a semiauto.
Posted by: Robert at March 08, 2008 05:50 PM (hcsKC)
22
I volunteer to be your "concealed lawyer." I am slight of build and write an anonymous blog whose genius is largely unrecognized in the blogosphere.
Posted by: Tertium Quid at March 10, 2008 11:41 AM (HqqaH)
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March 04, 2008
App State Student Fakes Campus Gunman and Shuts Down Entire University to Cover Up Broken Door He Didn't Want to Pay For
After the shootings at Virginia Tech and NIU, why not scare the crap out of everyone and shut down campus because you don't want to cough up a few bucks for a door you broke?
Matthew Haney did.
An Appalachian State University student who said he saw a gunman — setting off a campus-wide lock down Monday — made up the story, police said Tuesday.
Matthew Haney, from Durham, said he saw an armed man trying to steal his TV, but investigators said he lied. His apartment door was broken, and investigators said they believe he didn't want to report it to the management company.
That's Matthew Haney, of Durham, North Carolina, for all you future employers.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
02:23 PM
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Was Obama's Iraq War Opposition Based upon a Relationship to Saddam's Arms Dealer?
That is the theory being floated by conservative blog Illinois Review, and frankly one I've heard speculated about before... but does that speculation hold water?
The theory goes like this:
Barack Obama has had questionable dealings (including the purchase of his home) with Tony Rezko, who is on trial on corruption charges, and who may have directed
kickbacks to Obama.
Resko has had numerous business deals with Nahdmi Auchi, who
once sold arms to Saddam Hussein and had other dealings with the Hussein regime.
Resko and Auchi also had business dealings with Aiham Alsammarae, a fugitive from Iraqi justice who allegedly stole $650 million from the Iraqi Ministry of Electricity, who is now apparently
living in Chicago, despite having been convicted and sentence to 14 years in prison in Iraq.
All these questionable relationships. however, have
not produced a "smoking gun," and there is no direct evidence of anything illegal transpiring between Obama and these three men (or any others) at this time.
His mere association with these men, however—men who have continually operated on the edge of the law, and sometimes over that edge into clearly illegal activity—is troubling, and peels off some of the veneer of a candidate who promises "change" but instead seems to be far less pure than the image he'd like to project.
I must wonder, however... will the same left-leaning blogs and news sites that so throughly flogged
every questionable Bush/Cheney associate, association, and decision be as willing to investigate every nuance of Obama's questionable ties as they develop?
Frankly, I'm not holding my breath.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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From what you wrote and what I have read elsewhere, there is no evidence of contact/association between Obama and Auchi or Alsammarae. Just the relationship with Resko, which is troubling enough.
Worth digging into some more, but right now the Auchi/Alsammarae association seems more like throwing mud on the wall to see what sticks than anything else. Certainly it won't convince anyone at this point that Obama is any more corrupt than your average politician.
Posted by: iconoclast at March 04, 2008 02:15 PM (M+wD9)
2
As a person who would encourage people to investigate Arbusto, James Bath, Enron, Halliburton et al, I would have to in all fairness invite them to check into Obama's background.
Posted by: chris lee at March 04, 2008 03:53 PM (6x0Nb)
3
Stop funding the terrorists!
No more Oil Wars!
Energy Independence Now!
Drill in Anwar.
Build more nuclear power plants
Use More coal.
Use more natural gas
Turn trash into energy
Double the efficiency of windmills and solar cells.
If France can do nuclear power so can we.
If Brazil can do biomass/ethanol power so can we.
If Australia can do LNG power so can we.
Domestically produced energy will end the recession and spur the economy.
Stop paying oil dollars to those who worship daily at the altar of our destruction.
Preserve our Civil Rights and defend our Freedom by ending dependence on foreign oil.
Posted by: poetryman69 at March 04, 2008 07:04 PM (w4Myn)
4
Wow, that's gotta be the most mindlessly-repeated talking points I've ever seen crammed into one post.
Posted by: C-C-G at March 04, 2008 07:28 PM (43PDP)
5
Dear Poetryman,
One's day job, it should
not be quit. you reading me,
you ignorant git?
Haiku you buddy-roo.
Posted by: Uncle Pinky at March 04, 2008 08:30 PM (WDso1)
6
Not buying it however, the Obama messiah (pbuh) is a Chicago Daley political machine corruptocrat. So no surprise when it is learned he is not the squeaky clean wonder boy the MSM is making him out to be, change hope? Yeah right it just proves that a good chunk of the liberal population are a bunch of fools.
Posted by: Oldcrow at March 05, 2008 12:10 AM (388zw)
7
The left has floated far flimsier "seven degrees of separation" theories about George Bush for years, trying to dirctly link his business dealings to Saudi terrorists and to the Taliban (as in Fahrenheit 9/11). Turnabout is fair play.
Posted by: John Rohan at March 05, 2008 04:27 AM (IC+yR)
8
Actually, John, I must respectfully disagree.
We, as conservatives, don't want to sink to the level of the rabid, foaming-at-the-mouth anti-war lefties.
Let them have the reputation for scraping the bottom of the barrel to smear an opponent. I don't want that reputation.
Posted by: C-C-G at March 05, 2008 09:27 AM (43PDP)
9
The thing is, John, that that sort of flimsy conspiratorial crap only sells to the people who already believe it. Real BDS sufferers already believe that Bush is a secular Satan who eats babies for breakfast before torturing innocent Americans at lunchtime in the White House basement.
So to my mind, actually claiming a relationship with anymore than Resko will-absent further evidence-just convince the undecided that they are talking to a nutcase. And, in fact, decrease the likelihood that--assuming a real relationship exists--that the undecided voter will believe the existence of a relationship even after proof is uncovered.
And, anyway, the Resko relationship with these two slimebags definitely provides an indication of the character of Resko. That Obama allows dirtbags like Resko in his professional life is indicative of either his own inability to discern unethical people or his indifference to unethical/criminal people as long as they are doing him service.
Posted by: iconoclast at March 05, 2008 03:48 PM (M+wD9)
10
What percentage of the US population do you believe to be infected by BDS ?
I realize that 2 out of 3 Americans disapprove of his Presidency, are all of them infected with this BDS ?
Since his approval ratings have now often gone below freezing (32) we don't hear as much about BDS, it sort of reminds us of a much simpler time when the anti-war crowd was more easily dismissed.
Posted by: John Ryan at March 07, 2008 09:17 AM (TcoRJ)
11
What's Congress's rating these days, John?
P.S. your "figure" is out of date.
Posted by: Techie at March 07, 2008 04:47 PM (AV8Z6)
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March 03, 2008
Grandma's Got a Gun
In rural parts of the country, it happens from time to time; a person appears uninvited on someone's property, and the landowner tells them that "elsewhere" is a better place to be. Typically these confrontations are benign in nature, even when on occasion either the property owner or the trespasser turns out to be armed.
Such was the case in Texas this past weekend when a Danish reporter wandered into the yard of an elderly Texas woman, and she shooed him off, a gun apparently in hand.
CNN's Ed Henry made
quite a big deal out of the incident, promoting it as a near "international incident" writing in the lede that the Dane came "this close to getting shot."
He characterized the confrontation this way.
"I was just so occupied dictating my story that I didn't really see where I went," Svensson told me later. "I was just walking and talking."
What Svensson didn't realize was that he had stopped walking a couple hundred feet away, on the front lawn of an elderly woman. An elderly woman who looked through her window and didn't like that a strange man was standing outside her house. An elderly woman who had, um, a gun.
Next thing you know the woman is outside, no more than a few dozen feet from the journalist, demanding that he leave. "Suddenly she comes out and she says, 'Get off my property. You're trespassing,'" recalled Svensson.
Svensson was too preoccupied to notice the pistol, and was not aware that Texas law gives homeowners leeway on using a weapon when someone is trespassing on your property. All of us journalists across the street were too far away to see the pistol at first, until a Danish photographer with a telephoto lens announced to a bunch of us that there was indeed a weapon in the elderly woman's right hand.
Henry, of course, had no way of knowing if the journalist was actually in any danger, and he apparently was not. The citizen's interaction with the reporter seemed to have been limited to verbally warning the reporter off her property. She never raised the weapon or pointed it at the Danish journalist, and the one photo of the incident shows that the firearm was pointed at the ground. The journalist reported that he didn't even see a weapon when told to leave, according to Henry's own account.
And so it seems shocking to Henry that an elderly person has the right to be armed when confronting someone trespassing on their property, not knowing if the person wandering towards their door is a wayward Danish journalist, a petty thief, or someone with much darker intentions towards a seemingly frail victim.
That an elderly woman in a rural area warning off an intruder had the common sense to arm herself in case the intruder's intentions were something
more than an
innocent mistake never
crossed his mind.
But, Henry, apparently, had the story he wanted. That being armed is a prudent decision for some in certain circumstances never crossed his mind.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
12:24 PM
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1
I could tell stories about a certain "frail old lady" who was a dead-eye with an open site 30/30 and didn't like trespassers. She fired 'near' me on at least two occasions (this after I'd already called her letting her know I was coming out and why). Both times I was delivering appliances she'd purchased. This was before cell service was available in the area so I had to go all the way 'back to town', call her again to let her know who/why, and make sure she knew exactly what I was driving. Elsie was a very gracious lady... made excellent chocolate chip cookies... and could take the wings off a fly @ 100 yards.
Moral of the story: always expect a rude welcome even if you have 'permission'...being absent minded is the reporters own damn fault.
Posted by: Mark at March 03, 2008 04:58 PM (4od5C)
2
Do you think those reporters are as outraged by the female suicide bombers? Me neither.
Posted by: Retread at March 04, 2008 10:10 AM (P/AfD)
3
One wonders where these reporters stand on the issue of women in combat.
Posted by: C-C-G at March 04, 2008 09:16 PM (43PDP)
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I can’t help believing that even a preoccupied journalist would be perfectly aware that he was in someone’s front yard, especially being only a few feet from a large house as the photo clearly shows. Kind of rude, to my way of thinking. I suppose in Europe and even in parts of America journalists have become fairly cavalier about trespassing on private property. Perhaps a handout in the press kits given to foreign journalists would be advisable. It could say something like this:
“Due to an American constitutionally guaranteed right to own firearms journalists are advised to refrain from rudely wandering around in front yards unless invited by the property owner.”
Reading between the lines gives the impression that the journalist took his sweet time leaving the property after being requested to do so by the property owner. No stupid old American is going to boss HIM around – right?
Posted by: Dale St. Clair at March 05, 2008 11:41 PM (fTuXu)
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Wishful Thinking
The most incompetent CBS News headline in recent memory, or the result of too much wishful thinking?
Via
HotAir Headlines.
Barack Obama/Deval Patrick could not immediately be reached for comment.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
09:32 AM
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1
That's nothing.
Next week, NBC will breathlessly announce that Bush is being impeached for jaywalking.
BDS knows no bounds. I hope we have enough psychiatrists and psychologists to deal with the influx of new patients come 21 Jan 2009.
Posted by: C-C-G at March 03, 2008 10:00 AM (43PDP)
Posted by: t.ferg at March 03, 2008 10:22 AM (2YVh7)
3
Amazing how much difference a single word like "aide" can make, especially when accidentally left out. (Whether the accident was pure accident or Freudian slip can be debated, but I'd lean towards "pure accident" myself).
Posted by: Robin Munn at March 05, 2008 12:55 PM (vcwY0)
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Texans: Obama Wants Your Guns
I didn't think it was too much to ask the Barack Obama campaign to explain the candidate's position on firearms ownership prior to the Democratic primary in Texas.
Obama, after all,
has a documented record of wanting to ban handguns, ban all semiautomatic firearms (rifles, pistols, or shotguns), and while he has been silent on the specific issue, would seem to be squarely against the right of law-abiding citizens to carry concealed handguns (CCH) as well,a right that has been granted in roughly 40 states.
I sent the Obama campaign a
short list of questions this past Friday, asking the campaign to clarify his current position on citizens owning firearms for self defense, a right he has never specifically recognized.
I asked the Obama campaign to explain his views on concealed carry. This is a very relevant issue in Texas, where
almost 91,000 permits were issued in the 09/2006-08/2007 period alone.
I asked if Obama still favored an outright ban on handguns, which was his position in the past. I asked if he would still like to see all semi-automatic firearms including rifles and shotguns, a position he has also held in the past.
The Obama campaign has thus far refused to respond to these questions, even though they had plenty of time to send me multiple emails asking me to campaign for him.
At this point, we can only assume, lacking any direct response to these sensible questions, that Barack Obama would still favor banning all handguns and semi-automatic firearms currently used by Texans (and of course, all other Americans) for self-defense, hunting, target shooting, and other legal uses.
I suppose this silence shouldn't come as a surprise.
Suddenly recognizing the rights of Americans where he hasn't seen them before is obviously a change he can't believe in.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
09:10 AM
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1
I am damn sad that I even served in usmc to protect these scum bags. Lawyers are our biggest problem. I'll be damned that I ever give up my right to protect myself and family against people that are out of control due to alcohol and drugs. The majority of violence involves drug and alcohol. People kill people with automobiles and knives. I don't see them making car companies change max speed on all cars trucks snowmobiles street bikes. They all shouldn't go faster than 65 mph. I truely beleive that the rich politicians just don't feel safe knowing that people are carrying. Probably because they know we know how crooked they all are. They need to look at other bigger problems
Posted by: lucky at March 04, 2008 01:53 PM (fHXxR)
2
You need to remember, Obama comes from Illinois.
I wouldn't trust ANY politician from that state since Lincoln. This is the state that bans MOST firearms and makes it difficult if not impossible for legal carry even in a locked box.
The only ones that have guns are the criminal element. and the cops.
Posted by: oldarmyguy at March 05, 2008 02:02 PM (3xQv2)
3
CY,
The reason the campaign hasn't responded to your e-mail is because you run a third-tier blog. Sorry, PR directors have to allocate resources.
Nothing personal,
Keram
Posted by: Keram at March 06, 2008 09:01 PM (duarq)
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February 29, 2008
AP Lawyers Down Snapped Shot
Snapped Shot a photojournalism criticism site run by Brian Ledbetter, has gone dark due to legal threats from the Associated Press for copyright infringement for reproducing their images in order to critique them:
It's Been Fun
We have been informed that the Associated Press takes issue with our use of their images on this website, and until I'm able to resolve this matter with them amicably, I'm going to have to take the site offline.
Please feel free to e-mail me if you know more about this kinda thing. I'm posting a copy of the AP's letter below, for full disclosure.
Background
Snapped Shot is a site that deals with the criticism of photojournalism. The industry is inaccurate in its reporting, it falls for terrorist propaganda too easily, and in general, the photos that you see presented as "news" on a daily basis are nothing more than fluff. This site has, from the beginning, intended to correct that by presenting specific instances of bias or inaccuracy along with commentary as to why said photographs are inaccurate. I have never drawn a profit from this website, and have never received compensation for any of the "copyrighted" works that are owned by the AP. Furthermore, I have always been careful to give full credit to the wire photographers who have taken the pictures, and have even interacted cordially with a handful of them.
What The?
So why is the AP seeking action against me? I am not making any money off of their work. I am not a mainstream "news" site ala Yahoo, Google, or Breitbart. So what's the deal? Is the Associated Press uncomfortable with the content of this website? Have I struck a nerve too close to home? No idea, but if you're a lawyer that deals in intellectual property, I'm ready to become your new best friend...
Ledbetter includes a scanned copy of the letter from the Associated Press at the link above.
I've long been under the impression—perhaps wrongly—that reproducing photographs for the purpose of criticism was within "
fair use" guidelines.
I am familiar with Snapped Shot and have worked with Mr. Ledbetter on occasion and his site, the best I can recall, did seem to satisfy the general guidelines of fair use
as many of us understand them.
If the Associated Press has determined that it is in their best interests to sue to keep from being criticized by bloggers, this will be a very unsettling development. I certainly hope that is not the case.
I've just sent an email to Paul Colford of the Associated Press asking for specifics of why Ledbetter's site came to their attention, and hopefully he can shed some light on their motivations as this story develops.
Update:
Colford responds:
I have nothing to add beyond the letter from AP, except to underscore that this is a copyright matter.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
05:16 PM
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1
I think the "fair use" rule would apply here. It's probable, though, that they want to stifle criticism however they can.
Posted by: Steve Stewart at February 29, 2008 06:05 PM (hDY55)
2
The Electronic Freedom Frontier at www.eff.org has a lot of info and may offer to help. The paper at
http://www.eff.org/issues/ip-and-free-speech explores some options.
Posted by: Actual at February 29, 2008 06:19 PM (GTbu8)
3
The applicable section of the Copyright Act is 17 USC 107, which states:
17 U.S.C. § 107. Limitations on exclusive rights: Fair use
Notwithstanding the provisions of sections 106 and 106A, the fair use of a copyrighted work, including such use by reproduction in
copies or phonorecords or by any other means specifie by that section, for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting,
teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright. In
determining whether the use made of a work in any particular case is a fair use the factors to be considered shall include —
(1) the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit
educational purposes; [In your case it is for educational and non-profit]
(2) the nature of the copyrighted work;
(3) the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and
(4) the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work.
The fact that a work is unpublished shall not itself bar a finding of fair use if such finding is made upon consideration of all the above factors.
Seems to me that the use of the photos fall within the fair use doctrine set forth above. Also what little case law I reviewed also supports that conclusion. However I am not an IP attorney.
Mike
Posted by: Mike at February 29, 2008 07:34 PM (wearR)
4
This is SOP. Copyright is in flux today, partly because corporations, and AP is a corporation, have friends in Congress who are challenging fair use.
This sort of cease and desist intimidation is most often directed at left-leaning documentray filmk makers, but corporations are blind to politics and only want control. So, all small fry are fair game.
They most likely wouldn't take this to court, but they'd threaten to, and if they did their lawyers would squash this web site like a bug.
This is one of the reasons I usually side with Democrats. They're not perfect, but they're less inclined than Republicans to protect corporate interests over the individual rights.
I know many of you will flame me for this, but it's generally true.
For a good, easy-to-digest book on fair use and public domain law, go to www.law.duke.dot.edu/cspd/comics (I've added the "dot" because Bob's spam filter won't let me post otherwise.)
It's a good summary of the law as it applies to doc makers, and would apply to bloggers, as well.
If your friend has received a cease-and-desist, he should go to www.chillingeffects.org
I hope this helps.
Posted by: David Terrenoire at February 29, 2008 09:29 PM (Bx4FB)
5
I am not going to flame you David. In point, I think both sides of the Hill are corrupt and are not there to protect the rights of individuals. Thus as an example I point to the last century of laws passed by Congress. Our civil liberties have been eroded one by one over the last 100 years.
Why is it ok to talk to your friends in the car with you, but not a friend who is still at home via cell phone? Why are we still pressing to make it illegal for cellphone use when stats show 1/2 of all accidents of late are by drivers using hands-free devices.
This all goes to eroding personal individual rights. As in this case. Brian's rights to fair use of PUBLICLY displayed photos\images is being challenged by a giant with lots of money. For the nation's sake, for your own liberty's sake, give Brian your support. Else, the AP may come after your kid's class project of pasted photos next.
Posted by: captainfish at March 01, 2008 03:51 PM (98uSe)
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This is not a left or right issue. We all know what is going on here and David T. put a name to it: "cease and desist intimidation."
Most modern warfare (corporate or battlefield) requires "money, lawyers, and guns." Bloggers, especially, have damn little of one and three. And most rational people seek mightily to avoid big, steaming, noxious heaps of number two.
Snapped Shot exposed the hubris & bigotry of a news giant, and "cease and desist intimidation" landed on its doorstep.
The only problem is 'who's next?'
Posted by: locomotivebreath1901 at March 02, 2008 09:10 AM (e0zFn)
7
I wanted to say congrats on the baby girl, but that post isn't allowing comments. I'm late, but still...congrats! You are blessed. I'll have a little girl coming in May! I'm excited about that, and excited for you on your blessing.
Posted by: Jay at March 02, 2008 10:06 AM (JrDd4)
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Hello - until this AP lawsuit, I wasn't aware there was an individual (Brian Ledbetter) whose hobby was photojournalistic criticism (as in academic art criticism or literature criticism).
Although Brian Ledbetter's photojournalistic criticism website is constrained, his written content minus photos lives on at the "Wayback Machine" Internet Archive here ...
... yo Confederate Yankee!!! I can't put the hyperlink to the Wayback Machine into this comment. Would you be so kind as to edit this comment so there would be a hyperlink to Snapped Shot's Internet Archive of WRITTEN content minus photos
Posted by: Malcolm Stevens at March 02, 2008 12:19 PM (rCO3B)
9
AP has a point when you get to point 4 of fair use:"(4) the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work."
There can be no question that the AP photo of smoke over Beirut lost a lot of value once it was revealed to be a fraud; likewise once he showed that other photos had been staged, they were worthless. While common sense tells me that SS is in the right, common sense does not always have much to do with the courts.
Posted by: nyexpat at March 02, 2008 02:06 PM (0jnta)
10
"This is one of the reasons I usually side with Democrats. They're not perfect, but they're less inclined than Republicans to protect corporate interests over the individual rights."
Dems like to pass a lot of regulations and support unions that make life difficult or impossible for small businesses, which is a big contributing factor to corporate dominance.
"I know many of you will flame me for this, but it's generally true."
Oh, waah. You post, you get flamed, life goes on.
Posted by: ben at March 02, 2008 08:41 PM (IFfn3)
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Hey, David, you might look at the data.
Communications and electronics companies have given a total of over $12 million to Hillary and Obama. Obama got $6,057,316 and Hillary $6,161,973. The nearest Republican candidate was Rudy, who got $1,607,950.
In the Finance/Insurance/Real Estate sector, Hillary got over $16 million.
In the Health sector, Hillary and Obama again top the list, Hillary getting nearly $4 million, Obama about $3.2 million, and Mitt only $2.1 million.
In the eeeeeeeeeeeevil lawyers and lobbyists category, we have three Democrats topping the list. Hillary got $14,067,757, Obama got $11,345,836, and John Edwards got $8,692,033. By contrast, Rudy only got $4,611,805, less than a third what Hillary got.
This data is publicly available on www.opensecrets.org so you might wanna look it up yourself.
And then explain how, with all those donations, Hillary or Obama will be "less inclined than Republicans to protect corporate interests."
Posted by: C-C-G at March 02, 2008 09:12 PM (43PDP)
12
AP has a point when you get to point 4 of fair use:"(4) the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work."
There can be no question that the AP photo of smoke over Beirut lost a lot of value once it was revealed to be a fraud.
And, in fact, its perceived value was inseparable from its fraudulence. Kind of like a counterfeit $100 bill: as soon as the truth about it is revealed, it becomes worthless. Does that mean that counterfeiters can sue you for the "loss" they incur if you report them for printing phony banknotes?
The law does not recognize any right to profit from fraud. And if the "value" is an illusion based on the belief that the fraud is genuine, then said "value" does not actually exist and cannot be "lost".
Posted by: Pat at March 03, 2008 12:51 AM (0suEp)
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One name comes to mind: Adnan Hajj.
Remember him? al-Reuter's photographer of deceit and photoshop in Lebanon?
Can you imagine al-Reuters trying to establish that they were 'losing value' by Johnson and other's analysis of the images from then?
Fair Use for analysis and criticism, if they were going to aim it at anyone, would be LGF... they are starting *small* with the intimidation. So they can build a case if and/or when an Adnan Hajj-equivalent shows up for AP.
Posted by: ajacksonian at March 03, 2008 05:58 PM (oy1lQ)
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Questions on Obama's Views of Gun Rights

Barack on Guns:
Yippie Ki Neigh?
I sent the following to the Barack Obama campaign's media contact page earlier today. I'll be very interested in their response, providing of course that they do respond.
There seems to be so ambiguity on Senator Obama's stance on various aspects of the ownership of firearms that I would like to get cleared up.
According to the campaign web site, his view on firearms ownership is as follows:
"Millions of hunters own and use guns each year. Millions more participate in a variety of shooting sports such as sporting clays, skeet, target and trap shooting that may not necessarily involve hunting. As a former constitutional law professor, Barack Obama understands and believes in the constitutional right of Americans to bear arms. He will protect the rights of hunters and other law-abiding Americans to purchase, own, transport, and use guns for the purposes of hunting and target shooting."
This statement does not address a key reason that literally millions of Americans say they own firearms, which is for self defense.
What is Senator Obama's position on Americans owning firearms for legal self defense?
Related to that question, what is Senator Obama's position on the licensing of Americans to carry concealed handguns, which is now a legal option in 40 states?
The campaign statement does not address literally tens of millions of firearms legally owned by Americans at this present time for reasons other than hunting and sport shooting, including handguns, which at one point in the Illinois legislature Mr. Obama said he would like to see banned.
Does Senator Obama still feel that handguns should be banned in America? If he does not still support a ban on handguns, why has his position changed?
Also on his Illinois legislative record are statements that he would like to see all semi-automatic weapons banned.
Does Senator Obama still feel that all semi-automatic firearms should be banned in America? If not, what semi-automatic weapons does he view as being acceptable for civilian use, and why has his position changed? Please explain his views in as much detail as possible.
Thank you very much for your time.
I'll be very interested to see if Obama maintains his previously held and rather absolutist positions on the subject, or if he has, as was
speculated this morning, flip-flopped on the subject to pander for votes.
I suspect that if Texans knew of his
previous record, they may want their hat back.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
02:51 PM
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None of the three likely next presidents are going to be any friends to gun owners.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at February 29, 2008 03:07 PM (5hXBq)
2
Regardless what he says, he's anti-gun as far as self-defense. He can say whatever; he'll sign any anti-gun legislation and appoint anti-gun judges.
He's on record recently saying that Chicago and Washington D.C. ordinances are reasonable restrictions on the 2nd Amendment.
Posted by: capitano at February 29, 2008 03:08 PM (+NO33)
3
indeed, the "so ambiguity" is palpable.
Posted by: bend at February 29, 2008 04:45 PM (JJNnh)
4
Q: Is Obama a gun grabbing liberal?
A: Yes.
End of question and answer session.
Posted by: Conservative CBU at February 29, 2008 07:01 PM (La7YV)
5
So Obama believes the Founding Fathers felt it was important to add skeet shooting and popping squirrels to the Bill of Rights? Hmm. Those constitutional law classes he taught must have been interesting...
Posted by: jt at February 29, 2008 07:19 PM (MLKeF)
6
As a proud gun owner (I'll challenge any one of you to a shoot-off at 25 yards with a GI .45) and defender of the 2nd amendment, it's tough to be absolute on this amendment.
It's that qualifying phrase that makes this a sticky argument. SCOTUS, if I remember right, is supposed to rule on this for the first time since the 30's, and that'll be interesting.
I'm not a big fan of DC or Chicago's law, but I honestly don't know if it's unconstitutional and anyone who says different doesn't know his Constitutional law.
That's why this upcoming case will be watched so intently.
Posted by: David Terrenoire at February 29, 2008 09:36 PM (Bx4FB)
7
It's that qualifying phrase that makes this a sticky argument.
Its not a "qualifying phrase", its a statement of rationale.
Do you know what the statutory Federal definition of "militia" is? There is one.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at March 01, 2008 08:09 PM (5hXBq)
8
(I'll challenge any one of you to a shoot-off at 25 yards with a GI .45)
I will take that challange. Come on down to my range sometime

.
Anyway. All I can say to this story is this.
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on what to have for dinner. Liberty is a well-armed sheep contesting the vote."
Posted by: Matt at March 01, 2008 11:08 PM (9V6Vj)
9
"There seems to be so ambiguity on Senator Obama's stance on various aspects of the ownership of firearms"
To be fair, he is ambiguous on every issue.
Posted by: Gary Rosen at March 02, 2008 11:26 PM (sHuCu)
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