August 04, 2008
B5ers Go Discovery Channel
At great risk to their "street cred" as milbloggers, Blake "Laughing Wolf" Powers and Jim " Uncle Jimbo" Hanson are trying out for hosting duties of a new Discovery Channel show, Blow Crap Up.
Actually, the show is titled Super Testing, but I think my description is more accurate. Anyway, this is what they're looking for:Do either of these guys fit the bill? If you think they do, you can vote for Laughing Wolf here, or Uncle Jimbo here. Have at it, kids.
We’re looking for someone who is: * In his late 30s to early 40s. * Smart – he needs to be credible in his interactions with scientists and engineers. Science, stuntman, or engineering background is a strong plus. He does not have to be an "expert" in science or engineering per se, but should grasp the science or engineering concepts at least well enough to ask the kind of intelligent questions that our intelligent viewers appreciate. * Tough, but an "Everyman" – He should be credible dealing with military officials, mechanics, pilots, test subjects – the whole range of folks who build things and sometimes blow things up all in the name of progress. Military, construction, or mechanical engineering background is a strong plus. He should come off as knowledgeable but likeable – and definitely a man's man. * Charismatic, but not too "hosty" – He should be able to explain the who-what-where-when-how of the testing in a clear, direct, and always conversational way. We need someone who seems comfortable in his own skin and comfortable on camera. But he should also be comfortable letting the light shine on the real stars of the show – the people who he encounters, who make "super testing" a reality.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at 07:36 PM | Comments (21) | Add Comment | Trackbacks (Suck)
Posted by: DaveP. at August 04, 2008 11:49 PM (6iy97)
Posted by: Patrick Chester at August 05, 2008 01:17 AM (zl17B)
Posted by: olddawg at August 05, 2008 06:46 PM (Rstdp)
Race Card Solitare
If McCain's comparisons of Barack Obama and Paris Hilton are offensive, the Democratic nominee should start by blaming the person who first made that comparison.
Himself. And in context:"Well steeped in the basic physics of hype"? RACIST! (Big hat tip to Seton Motley of Newsbusters.org)
There's nothing exotic or complicated about how phenoms are made in Washington, and, more to the point, how they are broken. "Andy Warhol said we all get our 15 minutes of fame," says Barack Obama. "I've already had an hour and a half. I mean, I'm so overexposed, I'm making Paris Hilton look like a recluse." The new senator from Illinois is dazzling another venue, in this case the Gridiron Club. It is early December and Obama won't start his new job for a few weeks. But he comes well steeped in the basic physics of hype.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at 03:21 PM | Comments (15) | Add Comment | Trackbacks (Suck)
The Compassion of the Progressive Left
That saddest thing about reader reaction to Raw Story's article about Bob Novak's retirement due to a "dire" brain tumor diagnosis?

Posted by: Confederate Yankee at 02:47 PM | Comments (26) | Add Comment | Trackbacks (Suck)
Posted by: Penfold at August 04, 2008 04:36 PM (lF2Kk)
Posted by: Vercingetorix at August 04, 2008 06:01 PM (V/FgT)
I can think of a few of the Liberal comments on this very blog.
They've flatly stated their positions. They can't be talked out of it, and I wouldn't believe them even if they claimed to have changed.
Posted by: brando at August 04, 2008 06:58 PM (Gs5OS)
Posted by: Capitalist Infidel at August 04, 2008 10:12 PM (kNqJV)
Just ask Joe Lieberman.
Posted by: C-C-G at August 04, 2008 10:28 PM (irkBP)
Posted by: megapotamus at August 05, 2008 11:53 AM (LF+qW)
Posted by: Mark at August 05, 2008 08:51 PM (Gq1iW)
I can just feel the love and compassion the left has for their fellow humans. However, since they've determined Mr. Novak isn't human I wonder if PETA or the ASPCA might take offense on his behalf?
Posted by: Mark at August 05, 2008 11:11 PM (w/olL)
The Pain Tool
How arrogant is Nancy Pelosi in making this statement?
In what alternate reality do Democrats believe that continued reliance on the building of oil rigs in third-world nations is better for the planet than building much cleaner, greener oil rigs off our shores? We're going to need the oil regardless of where it comes from, and the Democrat-led Congress is conceding the chance to "go green" by switching as much of our consumption as possible to domestic extraction methods we can control. Pelosi isn't saving the planet, she is forfeiting a unique opportunity in this nation's history to help create an environmentally-friendly domestic conventional energy market. But then, Pelosi isn't trying to save the planet, she's trying to drive up prices. She and other liberal democrats are hoping to force us to concede to their desire for funding more R&D into alternative energy sources that do not yet exist. In effect, she wants us to put a substantial amount of our eggs in a basket that hasn't been built yet, and starve for years to come while it is being constructed, and hope that it works. And they say Democrats don't support faith-based initiatives. Which brings us to the second point, our economy. How can we grow an economy when Democrats are doing all they can to put a stranglehold on the extraction of fuels and development of energy sources that makes it run? It is devastatingly clear that Democrats are purposefully crippling the economy by refusing to take steps to lower conventional energy prices, and indeed, are taking steps to make our energy concerns become a crisis by habitually and continually challenging attempts to extract proven domestic energy sources, and challenging attempts to upgrade or build new power plants. They want us to panic, and agree to fund new, unproven energy sources and technologies under duress. That isn't democracy. That's extortion. As for prices, elementary students can readily grasp the concept that raw materials acquired locally are going to be cheaper that paying the same globally-set prices for that material, and then paying the costs of having to ship them halfway around the world... but again, this isn't a concern for this crop of Congressional Democrats. They view your pain view it as a tool to wrest concessions from you. So much for all the empty rhetoric about caring about the middle class.
"We have a planet to save. We have an economy to grow," Pelosi said on ABC's "This Week with George Stephanopoulos". "And we can do that if we keep our balance in all of this and not just say but for drilling in unprotected and these protected areas offshore, we would have lower gas prices."
* * *
So is there someone in the oil industry who out there can confirm or deny what this guy told Matt on the record? Are there thousands of proven and capped oil and natural gas wells off our coasts that can be producing a flow of domestic energy in months, that Nancy Pelosi and our Democrat-led Congress are stone-walling?
Ya know something? Ive been going through a program called troops2roughnecks. It is a class put on by the troops transition team. Well we had our first class today, and I learned an interesting tidbit of information that the politicians seem to ignore. Like any big business, oil and drilling companies do things with tactical intent. Back in the 70s and 80s the drilling companies drilled thousands and thousands of oil and natural gas wells off the coast of the US, then capped them. They do this because they, and everyone else, knows that business is an investment. So you drill and cap, then when market price rises you extract. That way you did a bulk of the work at a lower price. Then the ban was enacted, so these wells sat and were not exploited. Now we are looking at the ban being lifted. According to the instructor who has over thirty years of experience in the oil fields, and has worked in everything from a routabout to CEO claims that the oil (and these are proven wells) can be turned over to market within six months. SIX MONTHS! According to him, there were over 3000 wells dug in the Gulf, around a thousand dug off the coast of California, and between 500 and a thousand dug off the east coast. He says that something like 90% of them were proven oil.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at 12:35 PM | Comments (26) | Add Comment | Trackbacks (Suck)
There are literally tens of thousands of wells in the continental US that are sitting there unused...
Posted by: cirby at August 04, 2008 01:04 PM (nYcsk)
There are generally multiple problems with uncapping these wells inclusive (and not complete by any means) of: re-issuing of leases, land-owner access grants, various state/federal regulations, infrastructure (pipelines, frac tanks, etc), and the biggest - MAN POWER.
Wyoming is the least populated state in the Union (we like it that way
Then there's the wonderful fact our junior Senator Barrasso got a drilling ban for the "Wyoming Range" passed through congress this year. That took literally billions of proven resources (plus the unproven postulated reserves yet to be discovered) off the drilling table.
Posted by: Mark at August 04, 2008 02:12 PM (4od5C)
They have forever linked themselves to the ruthless pursuit of power over doing 'whats right' in absurd parody of what both repretative and elected democracy means.
I hope they all rot in hell.
Posted by: Big Country at August 04, 2008 02:16 PM (niydV)
Energy Citations Database
Bibliographic Citation
Paper: Seeking Prospects for enhanced gas recovery
dated: 1 Jan 1982
Research Organization: Society of Petroleum Engineers
Abstract (reads in part)
As part of the Institute of Gas Technology's (IGT) ongoing research on unconventional natural gas sources, a methodology to locate gas wells that had watered-out under over-pressured conditions was developed and implemented. Each year several trillion cubic feet (Tcf) of gas are produced from reservoirs that are basically geopressured aquifers with large gas caps. As the gas is produced, the gas-water interface moves upward in the sandstone body trapping a portion of gas at the producing reservoir pressure. The methodology for identifying such formations consisted of a computer search of a large data base using a series of screening criteria to select or reject wells. The screening criteria consisted of depth cutoff, minimum production volume, minimum pressure gradient, and minimum water production. Wells chosen by the computer search were further screened manually to seek out those wells that exhibited rapid and large increases in water production with an associated quick decline in gas production indicating possible imbibition trapping of gas in the reservoir. The search was performed in an attempt to characterize the watered-out geopressured gas cap resource. Over 475 wells in the Gulf Coast area of Louisiana and Texas were identified as possible candidates representing an estimated potential of up to about 1 Tcf (2.83 x 10/sup 10/ m/sup 3/) of gas production through enhanced recovery operations. A process to determine the suitability of a watered-out geopressured gas cap reservoir for application of enhanced recovery is outlined. This paper addresses the identification of a potential gas source that is considered an unconventional resource.
This source refers to natural gas deposits but shows that in 1982 there were 475+ well that could produce 1 trillion cubic feet of gas and be accessed bery simply and quickly. i have no doubt there are other sources out there that could show similar results for oil.
Posted by: SShiell at August 04, 2008 04:00 PM (8UXyu)
If Pelosi and Reid upset the ultra-greens, a good portion of the funds to keep them in their fancy offices (and using tons of petroleum in their 757 jets), and then Pelosi, Reid, et al might actually have to get real jobs... and wouldn't that be a shame?
Posted by: C-C-G at August 04, 2008 04:38 PM (irkBP)
Posted by: Big Country at August 04, 2008 06:08 PM (niydV)
Posted by: C-C-G at August 04, 2008 06:32 PM (irkBP)
The way the instructor explained it, they capped them as soon as they found oil. And yes there are many capped land rigs that had stopped producing above their economic level. But as this level changes with market price, many of them will be producing enough that they are not a drain on the company.
Posted by: Matt at August 04, 2008 08:12 PM (rHW2R)
Activists: Killing Animals is Bad, Targeting Researcher's Family with Firebombs is "Necessary"
All my friends on the left were outraged by the Tennessee church attack last week because of the reasons for the attack cited by the deranged shooter. They (not law enforcement) subsequently labeled the shooting "domestic terrorism."
I'm sure they will issue equally ferocious condemnations of this attack shortly.
The FBI today is expected to take over the investigation of the Saturday morning firebombings of a car and of a Westside home belonging to two UC Santa Cruz biomedical researchers who conduct experiments on animals. Santa Cruz police officials said Sunday the case will be handed to the FBI to investigate as domestic terrorism while local authorities explore additional security measures for the 13 UCSC researchers listed in a threatening animal-rights pamphlet found in a downtown coffee shop last week. [snip] While a spokesman said he didn't know who committed the act, the Woodland Hills-based Animal Liberation Front called the attacks a "necessary" act, just like those who fought against civil rights injustices. Spokesman Dr. Jerry Vlasak showed no remorse for the family or children who were targeted. "If their father is willing to continue risking his livelihood in order to continue chopping up animals in a laboratory than his children are old enough to recognize the consequences," said Vlasak, a former animal researcher who is now a trauma surgeon. "This guy knows what he is doing. He knows that every day that he goes into the laboratory and hurts animals that it is unreasonable not to expect consequences."
You heard the man. According to our learned left-wing doctor, researchers that are trying to get an understanding of how the brain works deserve to have their children burned to death. The local police captain was less than impressed.
Degraded thinking? From the animal rights crowd? Surely, you can't be serious.
Clark, the Santa Cruz police captain, said it was "unconscionable" for anyone to defend such acts: "To put this on par with any of the human rights issues is an absolute insult to the integrity of the people who fought and went through the human rights movement. This is what people do when they have an inability to articulate their point in any constructive way. They resort to primal acts of violence. Any reasonable person would need a logic transplant to begin to understand this level of degraded thinking."
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at 09:55 AM | Comments (29) | Add Comment | Trackbacks (Suck)
Posted by: Vercingetorix at August 04, 2008 12:20 PM (V/FgT)
Posted by: Purple Avenger at August 04, 2008 12:24 PM (SLqkZ)
Posted by: mytralman at August 04, 2008 12:37 PM (k+clE)
can't believe it...I think I'll wonder out this
afternoon and pop a few ground squirrels with the
old Ruger 10/22 with CCI Stinger HP...
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Posted by: dfgdzf at August 07, 2008 02:53 AM (aBPYC)
Posted by: redtube at August 09, 2008 06:23 AM (y+rKc)
August 02, 2008
Herbert's Hissy Fit
Bob Herbert is not happy:
In addition to being unhappy, Herbert's also a purposefully dishonest hack—Harold Ford was linked to "tacky, sexually provocative white women" because he infamously attended a Playboy Superbowl Party, as Accuracy in Media hammered home:
Gee, I wonder why, if you have a black man running for high public office — say, Barack Obama or Harold Ford — the opposition feels compelled to run low-life political ads featuring tacky, sexually provocative white women who have no connection whatsoever to the black male candidates.
Likewise, it is a simple truth that like Britney Spears or Paris Hilton, Barack Obama is famous primarily for being famous. During his short time as a state legislator in Illinois, he accomplished very little of note and arguably less than many of his state office peers. Not even through his first term as a U.S. Senator, Obama is running for President based upon even less. He has not been able to establish himself as anything other than a Senate backbencher, has pushed through no bills of national significance, failed at consensus building, and has proven to be unwilling or unable to reach across the aisle to build bi-partisan support. Like Britney Spears, Obama is great on stage, and a trainwreck of non-stop gaffes when left unattended by handlers. Like Paris Hilton, Barack Obama is famous, but no one can precisely explain why he is famous. He has risen to astronomical heights based on "buzz" instead of accomplishments, and if he falls in November, is likely to never be heard from again. He is nothing more or less than a political pop star. Bob Herbert, of course, doesn't want to admit this fact. Like so many who have peddled to Obama's defense, his greatest fear is that Barack Obama might be judged by the content of his character... or his lack thereof.
He [Ford] was at an event where scantily-clad women were featured attractions. How can a Democrat, a member of a political party that caters to feminists, defend that? Would it have been accurate to depict the Playboy-type model in the ad as black? Anybody who takes a passing glance at Playboy knows that the vast majority of the "models"―the Playmates or Playboy Bunnies―are white. By chance, I was flipping through my cable channels the other night and came upon a show on the E! channel titled "The Girls Next Door," featuring Playboy founder Hugh Hefner and his current crop of Playboy "girlfriends." All of his girlfriends are white. A quick visit to the Playboy website finds no black models at all. So an ad featuring a white and blonde Playboy-like floozy, saying, "I met Harold at the Playboy party," is quite accurate, regardless of whether Ford is black or white. But desperate pro-Democratic Party liberal media figures want to find something despicable in a commercial that is based on a simple truth.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at 12:56 PM | Comments (73) | Add Comment | Trackbacks (Suck)
Funny how Herbert does not trash Obama for his portrayal of McCain as old and senile, ie, ageism.
Posted by: William Teach at August 02, 2008 02:46 PM (iS/pK)
Posted by: The Needle at August 02, 2008 02:55 PM (uFVYN)
When I listen to Barry's speeches, I am continuously reminded of that sing-song, talking down to kindergarteners voice from Al Gore. Nixon was a better speech-maker than Barry.
Have we become so stupid as to think that Barry is uplifting or inspiring in the least? If so, that is a demand that we immediately shut down all of the government schools, because we have become a nation of morons.
Posted by: Two Dogs at August 02, 2008 03:01 PM (XdbhR)
What I do know is that Obama is a manifestly empty candidate, and it makes McCain better in comparison. What you don't seem to grasp with your high school loser analogy (one I assume you have some familiarity with) is that we aren't electing a superficial, responsibility-free homecoming queen, but a President. Substance counts, and Obama simply doesn't have any.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at August 02, 2008 03:05 PM (HcgFD)
Posted by: The Needle at August 02, 2008 03:23 PM (uFVYN)
But to be fair, I suppose that the McCain ad could have included Nicole Richie as a "famous for being famous" accomplishment-free floozie.
Posted by: Rhymes With Right at August 02, 2008 03:52 PM (gNl16)
Couldn't have been said more succinctly...
If you want to see what a real "hissy fit" looks like, study the whining from your corner of the blogosphere on the media coverage of McCain prior to this last week.
Posted by: Frederick at August 02, 2008 03:55 PM (yujiG)
Posted by: ECM at August 02, 2008 04:12 PM (q3V+C)
If substance ever counted, the current empty suit that sits in the White House would never have gotten elected.
An excellent case in point, Needle.
George W. Bush was a highly effective and well-like governor of Texas with an excellent reputation for being able to effectively run a government with broad bi-partisan support. He had excellent connections and long-term relationships with political experts, and the rare benefit of having a father who was Vice President and President.
If Bush has made such a mess of things considering his resume, how bad will a candidate with no executive experience and a mediocre level of performance in every office he's ever had be?
Barack Obama has under-performed at every job he's ever had since leaving college. I don't think we can risk giving him the most important job in the world as his first chance to get something right.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at August 02, 2008 04:52 PM (HcgFD)
“If Obama Is President…Will We Still Call It The White House?” The pattern is pretty established. You're not biting, you're baiting.
Posted by: Frederick at August 02, 2008 04:56 PM (dwzpy)
Al Gore and John Kerry lost, Needle.
Posted by: William Teach at August 02, 2008 05:06 PM (iS/pK)
Ah, so getting taken in by the whole "Obama's Blog Burning!" nonsense wasn't just a fluke. You really WILL believe anything.
Posted by: The Needle at August 02, 2008 05:11 PM (uFVYN)
I really want to know, because, you know, the current occupant of the Oval Office has one.
So, either the "empty suit" charge against Dubya is wrong, or Harvard is nothing more than a diploma factory for the rich and powerful... like, say, Michael Bloomberg (Mayor of NYC), Rep. Chet Edwards (D-TX), Steve Grossman (former head of the DNC), Eugenio Lopez III (Chairman and CEO of ABC), John Lynch (D-Governor of NH), Ann S. Moore (Chairman and CEO of Time), the late Senator William Proxmire (D-WI), former Senator Donald Riegle (D-MI), Mark Walsh (former CEO of Air America Radio), and many others.
So, are ALL those people empty suits, or does a Harvard MBA really mean something, Needle?
Posted by: C-C-G at August 02, 2008 06:04 PM (irkBP)
Obama tells others they need to make their Children Bilingual.
The Current CinC speak poorly from a telepromter, but eventually make his point.
Obama away from a telepromter can't make a point to save his life, and talks so poorly he makes the Current CinC sound facund, and when reading from it, makes...no points either. His speeches consist of platitudes and Marxist sayings. I wonder at them and can't believe no one has pointed this out to his speech writers.
The Current CinC once Piloted an evil fighter jet from Texas to Florida in a whited out cockpit while staring into an orange ball of radar to prove he was instrument rated. This was an aircraft noted for killing it's pilots at rates nearing combat casualties even in peace time.
Obama can't even air the tires on the bike he uses for Photo Ops.
Posted by: JP at August 02, 2008 06:29 PM (Tae/a)
Posted by: dave™© at August 02, 2008 07:30 PM (NgpfH)
Well that's a stretch. Britney has put out albums and Paris is a model. And they are NOT world famous. Way to carry the water again...as long as that makes sense in your own mind...
So Obama has done nothing?
and McCain...go Wiki him, is famous for his gaffes as well as his mistakes. His claim to fame is a scandal (Keating Five)and a piece of legislation that he co-authored and is now shirking.
Every distraction always circles back to his utter ineptness as a politician...never mind the ineptness of his cadet-ship, scholarship and flying. Does mental capacity mean nothing to you people?
Posted by: Manamongst at August 02, 2008 07:31 PM (OHUyo)
Posted by: DaveP. at August 02, 2008 07:32 PM (S8p2O)
Oh yeah; You're one of the "reality-based community".
So... "reality" is the new street slang for heroin, yes?
Posted by: DaveP. at August 02, 2008 07:34 PM (S8p2O)
He knew why he put Paris in that commercial, to have a white girl juxtaposed with the non-white candidate. After pushback he had to bring her down...what has she ever done to him? Seriously...but to this knee-jerk idiot, everything Hollywood is to be hated or belittled...all the while her dad gives his candidacy and his party money...not to mention the Blackstone Group, who I am sure are having a word with him.
And while we're at it, he salivates all over people who are truely the personification of "famous for nothing" Heidi Montag...Ohhh but my bad, she's the one loser who will associate with his loser Lane Bryant model daughter. I mean can we be serious here...
Half the people on this blog detest McCain...you don't consider him a "true conservative" You've got to admit his lies aren't adding up, The things you called Kerry on for flip-flopping are now policy evolutions.
Just when we think YOU PEOPLE can not get anymore out of touch...YOU DO.
You all are just bad actors in a play that you think is better than it actually is.
Off topic can anyone tell me when was the last time a CONSERVATIVE invented anything. You know, if you're so proud of your inventors, where's your book chronicling this? That's right you're the one's who smash innovation until you can cash in on it. You stifle thought until you can understand it.
Right now, we're just waiting for your light bulbs to come on.
Thanks for playing.
Oh and yankee, it must truely be depressing to live life on the defense? This blogging thing has to get better than this right?
Posted by: Manamongst at August 02, 2008 07:47 PM (OHUyo)
He's as bilingul as he is unafraid of horses.
and an MBA isn't that tough, if you have an above average command of math, then it is attainable. Especially at a Harvard, when you have all resources (money) to get you tutors and help.
Lets try Harvard Law Review. Where your JUDGEMENT is on display 24/7 and easily reviewable now for your little eyes. Just try digging up ANYTHING GW wrote.
Posted by: Manamongst at August 02, 2008 07:51 PM (OHUyo)
Jimmy Carter had more experience than all of them...
perspective and stats are a bitch ain't they?
Posted by: Manamongst at August 02, 2008 07:53 PM (OHUyo)
Actually, isn't Obama the only editor and president of the Review who never published any law articles during his tenure?
Posted by: toby928 at August 02, 2008 07:59 PM (PD1tk)
Posted by The Needle
I was going to ask for the sarcasm tags, because that was a hoot, then I read Needle's other posts.
It was serious!
It's even funnier now.
Posted by: PETN Sandwich at August 02, 2008 08:03 PM (2CVxB)
Posted by: C-C-G at August 02, 2008 08:06 PM (irkBP)
Oh and yankee, it must truely be depressing to live life on the defense? This blogging thing has to get better than this right?
Funny you should mention that. You and some of your fellow commenters gave me a chuckle as I read (And had to delete some of) your comments. Reminded me of a song I heard on my way to a coaches meeting this morning.
At this stage of my blogging life, I expect to hear you frothing. I'm used to your side cursing, whining or mocking something that I said, or trying to take it out of context.
Bit dogs bark, Manamongst.
Thanks for dropping by to yelp.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at August 02, 2008 08:20 PM (HcgFD)
That beats the resume of Hussein O, born half white/half Arab. Lies about his hertage and religion, has never accomplished one thing not involving friends involved in crime and/or terrorism. Total days worked in the Senate 143, (in over three years) Yet has the balls, or is that the low class upbringing, to accept a full time check, on the taxpayers.
Now lets have all of you lefties resume's. I'll do it for you. Grade school drop out, prison (two terms), drunk and drug addict, early death due to drug addiction. Total taxable earned income in lifetime $0. That covers 90% or more of the welfare riding democrats.
“…I will stand with them (Muslims) should the political winds shift in an ugly direction.” B Hussein Obama,
page 261 of his book, Audacity of Hope…
If you use his own words against him you are a racist. BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Posted by: Scrapiron at August 02, 2008 09:24 PM (I4yBD)
But in keeping with the thread.
Why should I vote for a man who has just slightly over a thousand hours in congress, who has thrown everyone who makes him look bad under the bus, who has written two racially charged books yet claims to transcend race, who had attended a racially charged church of 20 years, who can not speak to save his life unless he is behind a teleprompter, who can not debate against the most unarmed foe, who continually complains about people bringing his race into issue, but constantly does so when he feels it is in his best interest,,,,. How can I vote for someone who has so blatently disrespected our own constitution throughout his time in Congress? Please answer these questions, and change my mind.
I am an open minded individual, I really am. Respond to my post with honesty and convince me.
Why should I vote for this man?
Posted by: Matt at August 02, 2008 09:26 PM (rHW2R)
Without a teleprompter he speaks worse than a 4th grade student who rides the short bus.
Posted by: Scrapiron at August 02, 2008 09:26 PM (I4yBD)
Well, Dubbya's professor at Harvard Business School had this to say about him:
"At first, I wondered, 'Who is this George Bush?' It's a very common name and I didn't know his background. And he was such a bad student that I asked him once how he got in. He said, 'My dad has good friends.'" Bush scored in the lowest 10 percent of the class.
And:
showed pathological lying habits and was in denial when challenged on his prejudices and biases. He would even deny saying something he just said 30 seconds ago. He was famous for that. Students jumped on him; I challenged him." When asked to explain a particular comment, said Tsurumi, Bush would respond, "Oh, I never said that."
So, if you're using the fact that W graduated from Harvard as a credential, I reckon you'd have to allow as how a teacher at that fine university had even greater credibility, no?
Posted by: The Needle at August 02, 2008 11:41 PM (uFVYN)
Not only is Hussein O an Islamist, he hates white people, including his mother and he is one lying POS.
In his own words:
Below are a few lines from Obama's books " his words:
From Dreams of My Father: "I ceased to advertise my mother's race at the age of 12 or 13, when I began to suspect that by doing so I was ingratiating myself to whites."
From Dreams of My Father : "I found a solace in nursing a pervasive sense of grievance and animosity against my mothers race."
From Dreams of My Father& lt; /I>: "There was something about him that made me wary, a little too sure of himself, maybe. And white."
From Dreams of My Father: ; "It remained necessary to prove which side you were on, to show your loyalty to the black masses, to strike out and name names."
From Dreams of My Father: "I never emulate white men and brown men whose fates didn't speak to my own. It was into my father's image, the black man, son of Africa , that I'd packed all the attributes I sought in myself, the attributes of Martin and Malcolm, DuBois and Mandela."
From Audacity of Hope: "I will stand with the Muslims should the political winds shift in an ugly direction."
If the country wants change, change they will get with Obama !
But it may not be for the better !
“…I will stand with them (Muslims) should the political winds shift in an ugly direction.” B Hussein Obama,
page 261 of his book, Audacity of Hope…
Posted by: Scrapiron at August 03, 2008 12:11 AM (I4yBD)
Posted by: Purple Avenger at August 03, 2008 06:07 AM (SLqkZ)
Since you're so good at research, why don't ya take that list of names I gave you earlier and see how many of them graduated at the top of their class, and how many graduated at the bottom... and see if any of their teachers have ever said anything about them?
Oh, one more thing... you realize that by calling Dubya stupid, you're also calling all the Democrats in Congress even stupider, because Bush has won most of the confrontations with Congress... including keeping the War in Iraq going. The oh-so-intelligent Donkeys in Congress couldn't even find a way to stop this "empty suit" in the White House. Kinda makes your party look like the second half of Dumb and Dumber, doesn't it?
Posted by: C-C-G at August 03, 2008 08:41 AM (irkBP)
Ya right.....
Education
Undergraduate
Occidental College, Los Angeles, CA
Undergraduate, 1981-1983
Columbia University
B.A. Political Science with specialization in international relations
Thesis topic: Soviet nuclear disarmament
Graduate
Harvard Law School
J.D. magna cum laude 1988-1991
President, Harvard Law Review
Organizing
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1983-1988 Director of the Developing Communities Project (DCP), a church-based community organization originally comprising eight Catholic parishes in Greater Roseland on Chicago's South Side.
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1992 Led Chicago's Project Vote! push. This effort resulted in a record number of voter registrations, over 600,000 in Chicago. 1)
Teaching
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1993-2004 Visiting Law and Government Fellow, then Senior Lecturer, in Constitutional law at the University of Chicago Law School.
Law Practice
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1993-2002 Worked as an associate attorney with Davis, Miner, Barnhill & Galland.
Illinois Senate 1996-2004
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chairman, Health and Human Services Committee
United States Senate 2004-present
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Member, Senate Foreign Relations Committee
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Chairman, Senate Foreign Relations Subcommittee on European Affairs
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Member, Senate Committee on Health, Education, Labor, and Pensions
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Member, Senate Committee on Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs
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Member, Senate Committee on Veterans' Affairs
Bills / Amendments Passed
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S.AMDT.1041 to S.1082 To improve the safety and efficacy of genetic tests.
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S.AMDT.3073 to H.R.1585 To provide for transparency and accountability in military and security contracting.
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S.AMDT.3078 to H.R.1585 Relating to administrative separations of members of the Armed Forces for personality disorder.
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S.AMDT.41 to S.1 To require lobbyists to disclose the candidates, leadership PACs, or political parties for whom they collect or arrange contributions, and the aggregate amount of the contributions collected or arranged.
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S.AMDT.524 to S.CON.RES.21 To provide $100 million for the Summer Term Education Program supporting summer learning opportunities for low-income students in the early grades to lessen summer learning losses that contribute to the achievement gaps separating low-income students from their middle-class peers.
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S.AMDT.599 to S.CON.RES.21 To add $200 million for Function 270 (Energy) for the demonstration and monitoring of carbon capture and sequestration technology by the Department of Energy.
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S.AMDT.905 to S.761 To require the Director of Mathematics, Science, and Engineering Education to establish a program to recruit and provide mentors for women and underrepresented minorities who are interested in careers in mathematics, science, and engineering.
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S.AMDT.923 to S.761 To expand the pipeline of individuals entering the science, technology, engineering, and mathematics fields to support United States innovation and competitiveness.
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S.AMDT.924 to S.761 To establish summer term education programs.
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S.AMDT.2519 to H.R.2638 To provide that one of the funds appropriated or otherwise made available by this Act may be used to enter into a contract in an amount greater than $5 million or to award a grant in excess of such amount unless the prospective contractor or grantee certifies in writing to the agency awarding the contract or grant that the contractor or grantee owes no past due Federal tax liability.
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S.AMDT.2588 to H.R.976 To provide certain employment protections for family members who are caring for members of the Armed Forces recovering from illnesses and injuries incurred on active duty.
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S.AMDT.2658 to H.R.2642 To provide that none of the funds appropriated or otherwise made available by this Act may be used to enter into a contract in an amount greater than $5,000,000 or to award a grant in excess of such amount unless the prospective contractor or grantee makes certain certifications regarding Federal tax liability.
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S.AMDT.2692 to H.R.2764 To require a comprehensive nuclear threat reduction and security plan.
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S.AMDT.2799 to H.R.3074 To provide that none of the funds appropriated or otherwise made available by this Act may be used to enter into a contract in an amount greater than $5,000,000 or to award a grant in excess of such amount unless the prospective contractor or grantee makes certain certifications regarding Federal tax liability.
*
S.AMDT.3137 to H.R.3222 To provide that none of the funds appropriated or otherwise made available by this Act may be used to enter into a contract in an amount greater than $5,000,000 or to award a grant in excess of such amount unless the prospective contractor or grantee makes certain certifications regarding Federal tax liability.
*
S.AMDT.3234 to H.R.3093 To provide that none of the funds appropriated or otherwise made available by this Act may be used to enter into a contract in an amount greater than $5,000,000 or to award a grant in excess of such amount unless the prospective contractor or grantee makes certain certifications regarding Federal tax liability.
*
S.AMDT.3331 to H.R.3043 To provide that none of the funds appropriated or otherwise made available by this Act may be used to enter into a contract in an amount greater than $5,000,000 or to award a grant in excess of such amount unless the prospective contractor or grantee makes certain certifications regarding Federal tax liability.
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Senate Resolutions Passed:
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S.RES.133 : A resolution celebrating the life of Bishop Gilbert Earl Patterson.
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S.RES.268 : A resolution designating July 12, 2007, as “National Summer Learning Day”.
Other Bills Introduced
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S.J.RES.23: A joint resolution clarifying that the use of force against Iran is not authorized by the Authorization for the Use of Military Force Against Iraq, any resolution previously adopted, or any other provision of law.
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S. 453: Deceptive Practices and Voter Intimidation Prevention Act of 2007. The Deceptive Practices and Voter Intimidation Prevention Act of 2007 (H.R.1281), (S.453), would establish criminal penalties for acts of voter deception. Those who knowingly disseminate false information with the intention of keeping others from voting would face up to five years in prison under the legislation. The Act was sponsored by Rep. Rahm Emanuel (D-Ill.) and 60 cosponsors in the House, and Sen. Barack Obama (D-Ill.) and 15 cosponsors in the Senate. (20 Cosponsors)
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S. 2030: A bill to amend the Federal Election Campaign Act of 1971 to require reporting relating to bundled contributions made by persons other than registered lobbyists. (1 Cosponsor)
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S. 2111: Positive Behavior for Effective Schools Act. A bill to amend the Elementary and Secondary Education Act of 1965 to allow State educational agencies, local educational agencies, and schools to increase implementation of early intervention services, particularly school-wide positive behavior supports. (3 Cosponsors)
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S. 2066: Back to School: Improving Standards for Nutrition and Physical Education in Schools Act of 2007. A bill to establish nutrition and physical education standards for schools.
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S. Con. Res. 46: A concurrent resolution supporting the goals and ideals of Sickle Cell Disease Awareness Month
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S. 2044: Independent Contractor Proper Classification Act of 2007. A bill to provide procedures for the proper classification of employees and independent contractors, and for other purposes. (6 Cosponsors)
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S. 2519: Contracting and Tax Accountability Act of 2007. A bill to prohibit the awarding of a contract or grant in excess of the simplified acquisition threshold unless the prospective contractor or grantee certifies in writing to the agency awarding the contract or grant that the contractor or grantee has no seriously delinquent tax debts, and for other purposes.
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S. 2433: Global Poverty Act of 2007. A bill to require the President to develop and implement a comprehensive strategy to further the United States foreign policy objective of promoting the reduction of global poverty, the elimination of extreme global poverty, and the achievement of the Millennium Development Goal of reducing by one-half the proportion of people worldwide, between 1990 and 2015, who live on less than $1 per day. (9 Cosponsors)
*
S. 2330: Veterans Homelessness Prevention Act. A bill to authorize a pilot program within the Departments of Veterans Affairs and Housing and Urban Development with the goal of preventing at-risk veterans and veteran families from falling into homelessness, and for other purposes. (1 Cosponsor)
Posted by: rkrider at August 03, 2008 10:06 AM (filJz)
Why did you leave out the senate banking committee? That's his committee, per his statement.
Posted by: RicardoVerde at August 03, 2008 10:29 AM (PBTsv)
S.RES.268 : A resolution designating July 12, 2007, as “National Summer Learning Day”.
And, belive it or not, we, unlike you, are not staring at it in slackjawed amazement and awe.
Instead of a cut and paste job, name me one important thing Barky has ever accomplished for anytone else in his life? And, no, his good grades at Harvard don't count.
Community organizer, you say? For almost 3 years, huh? Can you name one permanent, significant improvement in the community Barky was allegedly "organizing" that resulted from said "organizing?" Is that community now crime free? Or gang free? Did unemployment go down?
He was a lawyer, was he? Did he win any famous cases? Did he set any important precedents? Or did he mostly do real estate work, ie getting Federal funding for his boy Rezko's phony "low income" housing schemes?
Legal scholar, huh? What has Barky written? Any scholarly or academic works about the law or any other topic? No? How about any thoughtful books about public policy or history? No? What has he written, then? Oh, I see, 2 amateurish, self-serving, self-valorizing, inaccurate auto-hagiographies before he was 45 years old. Yes, he's quite the professor, our Barky.
State senator? You mean when he got nothing done for 6 years while the GOP was in control (despite his self-proclaimed past-mastery of bipartisanship) and then had the president of the State Senate give him credit for a bunch of laws he had nothing to do with?
And, finally, US Senate, where's he done nothing at all, had no significant bills passed, held no hearing for his subcommittee, and basically spent all of his time campainging for president. That, and getting a day last year designated as "Summer Learning Day."
Perhaps Barky himself should attend summer school so that he can learn how to achieve some real accomplishments. Until then, I guess, the main rationale advanced for his candidacy by him and his acolytes seems to be that he's black (and that's not even true!), so, if you vote against him, you're a racist.
Posted by: ruddyturnstone at August 03, 2008 10:42 AM (RH27O)
But unlike your Dear Leader, George Dumbya, the Dems are learning from their mistake. slowly, to be sure.
Scrapiron: Needle has a lot of he said, she said, and no facts. I ran into a lot of people like that when I served 6 years with a volunteer rescue squad. We took all of them to the local mental institution.
Wow, Real quality care there. Someone disagrees so you have them locked up. No wonder you're a Republican.
Posted by: The Needle at August 03, 2008 11:13 AM (uFVYN)
I see they learned the trick of shutting off the lights and the microphones to keep the eeeeeeeeeeeeevil Wepubwicans from being able to make their point. They must have learned that one from Stalin.
Posted by: C-C-G at August 03, 2008 11:15 AM (irkBP)
Look, if Bush is/was an unqualified moron, then what does that make Obama? Cause Bush's resume is faaaar more impressive and substantial that the Messiahs.
Posted by: Techie at August 03, 2008 12:23 PM (aOlMr)
Posted by: Techie at August 03, 2008 12:26 PM (aOlMr)
Posted by: C-C-G at August 03, 2008 12:53 PM (irkBP)
According to you list, Obama hasn't passed a single bill while in the Senate, and of those he's proposed, he has no consponsors or just a handful of sponsors on most, meaning they have no chance of passing. He's passed two nearly meaningless resolutions, and slapped amendments on other bills.
Hear is a question for my readers, left or right:
Is there any Democrat currently in the Senate who has accomplished less as a Senator than Obama?
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at August 03, 2008 01:17 PM (HcgFD)
/sarc off
Posted by: C-C-G at August 03, 2008 01:33 PM (irkBP)
Posted by: Purple Avenger at August 03, 2008 02:09 PM (SLqkZ)
To provide that none of the funds appropriated or otherwise made available by this Act may be used to enter into a contract in an amount greater than $5,000,000 or to award a grant in excess of such amount unless the prospective contractor or grantee makes certain certifications regarding Federal tax liability.
..and a sixth is so close as to be virtually indistinguishable:
To provide that one of the funds appropriated or otherwise made available by this Act may be used to enter into a contract in an amount greater than $5 million or to award a grant in excess of such amount unless the prospective contractor or grantee certifies in writing to the agency awarding the contract or grant that the contractor or grantee owes no past due Federal tax liability.
Take those out, and rkrider's list suddenly looks a lot shorter.
Posted by: C-C-G at August 03, 2008 04:26 PM (irkBP)
waitaminute.
Okay, it's not like McCain is as paatriotic as Barack....
waitaminute.
Okay, it's not like John McCain has spent as much time in rehab from injuries sustained in his nation's cause as Barack Obama hs spent in Congress...
Wait a minute here...
The American Left, Folks! Because military experience is ultimatrely imprtant... unless a Republican hs it and a Democrat doesn't, in which case it's proof of some deep wrongdoing. BUT DON'T QUESTION THEIR PATROTISM!!!!
Posted by: DaveP. at August 03, 2008 06:43 PM (jhzkk)
Barry, had his pseudo seal killed when he was embarassed by being caught using it. So now you know, he would kill a poor little seal that was less than two weeks old!
Barry is a post turtle. He didn't get there himself. You see him sitting there, and the first thing you wonder is who put him there. The leading suspect: George Soros, who arranged that a young man of no particular accomplishment would get a literary contract for his memoirs.
Posted by: Don Meaker at August 03, 2008 09:25 PM (SybPa)
Now to Obama/Spears and Hilton. Here its a degree more subtle as neither woman is on the screen seducing the Senator but both Spears and Hilton are celebrities that are just as famous for their lack of morales as much as their accomplishments. Here just implying that Obama is comparable to Spears and Hilton means that at some level they have some commonality and they leave that to everyone's knowledge of what most people know about Spears/Hilton to fill in the gap. If they weren't trying to interject interracial overtones, why didn'couldn't they have made their point with real "global" phenoms, like Elvis, the Beatles, or the Pope even?
The whole thing shows how low the GOP has sunk and how desperate they are not to become obsolete. Basically the GOP ran an ad that uses other Americans (Last time I checked Hilton and Spears were still US citizens) to smear a US senator. How long before the flag drapped coffin ad gets pulled out of moth balls?
Posted by: matt a at August 04, 2008 09:03 AM (jRTMP)
This bill was designed to send roughly $65 billion a year (based on percentage of GDP) to the UN, most through "carbon taxes", for 12 years.
Given the UN ability to waste money through corruption and fraud, this has all the earmarks necessary to surpass the record levels in the Oil-for-Food Programme.
But why no mention of B.O.'s time working on education reform at the Chicago Annenberg Challenge with his neighbor Willian Ayers ? B.O. managed to waste $50 million of private money on that failed venture .. imagine what he could do with more.
Posted by: Neo at August 04, 2008 09:04 AM (Yozw9)
Hi .. I'm Muskie ... well, go take a bath
which can now be updated to ...
Hi .. I'm B.O. ... well, go take a bath
Posted by: Neo at August 04, 2008 09:16 AM (Yozw9)
First, by claiming that Willie Horton is an example of racism. One wonders whether he is familiar w/ what Horton did to get incarcerated in the first place.
Was it seeking the right to sit at a lunch counter, or use a water fountain, or not sit in the back of a bus? Was it being watercannoned by a Republican sheriff such as Bulldog Connor?
No, it was for stabbing a 17 year old gas station attendant 19 times after said attendant had handed over the till.
But he got furloughed anyway. Apparently, he deserved to be furloughed, b/c he was black, according to matt a?
Oh, and what happened to this outstanding citizen? He was arrested in MD, after skipping MA, raping a woman after cutting and stabbing her boyfriend and making him listen. Apparently, for matt a, the idea of even mentioning such a thing is a racist travesty.
matt a then goes on to suggest that McCain should compare Obama with the Pope, rather than Britney and Paris. This is ludicrous at so many levels that it's gotta be parody.
At its most basic: This is a campaign ad. You show your opponent in a less positive light. I suppose matt could be anti-Catholic (care to enlighten us?).
Second, the Pope, the Beatles, and Elvis all actually achieved something. That was the point of the ad. To suggest that Obama has achieved little.
Third, apparently to matt's mind, Britney and Paris are comparable to Elvis, the Beatles, and the Pope. I think that provides us all with a good perspective on where he's coming from.
Posted by: Lurking Observer at August 04, 2008 11:37 AM (SezkZ)
John McCain
Congress: 26 years
Military: 22 years
Barack Obama
Congress: 143 days
Military: 0
Any Questions as to Experience?
Posted by: Big Country at August 04, 2008 03:54 PM (niydV)
To the Left, the most important thing about Willie Horton was that he was black.
This tells all of us a LOT about the ethical difference between the two sides of the debate.
Posted by: DaveP; at August 04, 2008 09:00 PM (q6tuN)
Posted by: C-C-G at August 04, 2008 09:35 PM (irkBP)
August 01, 2008
Obama's Netroots Supporters Continue "Blog Burning"

Let's Party Like It's 1933.
Online activists thought to be loyal to Barack Obama are once against using Google's software tools to target rival political blogs for elimination as spam blogs. This occurred earlier this year when Democratic bloggers with a preference for Hillary Clinton also found themselves locked out of their own blogs, all because of spurious and apparently orchestrated claims that these blogs are spam blogs. Pro-Obama activists were blamed for those attempts at censorship as well. Like John at Argghhh!, I don't think for a second that the Obama campaign has any official knowledge of this attempt to hamstring or terminate rival political viewpoints, but as Obama once won an election by exercising procedural tricks to have his rivals thrown off the ballot, it is certainly in line with the kind of character he has displayed in the past. Update: Republican revolt in "Pelosi's Politburo." Nancy Pelosi and House Democrats fled the House of Representatives, turning off the microphones and the lights as Republicans continued to debate energy policy without them. They seem to be having loads of fun with it:
This blog has been locked due to possible Blogger Terms of Service violations. You may not publish new posts until your blog is reviewed and unlocked.
This blog will be deleted within 20 days unless you request a review. Its the same message Concrete Bob received and Rosemary posted for him. This is bulls**t as it appears that someone does not approve of the idea of free speech especially when the speech doesn't conform to their ideas.
Update: Drat! Another good 2-minute hate down the toilet.
Rep Devin Nunes (R-Calif.) just pretended to be a Democrat. He stood on the other side of the chaber and listed all of the GOP bills that the Dems killed. He then said "I am a Democrat and here is my energy plan" and he held up a picture of an old VW Bug with a sail attached to it. He paraded around he house floor with the sign while the crowd cheered.
08/02/08 Update: As noted in the Instapundit link above posted yesterday, the lockout is not targeted at specific sites, but is widespread. From Blogger's Blogger Buzz:
I jumped the gun when I accepted emailed claims from some of my fellow bloggers without verifying them independently , and I apologize.
We've noticed that a number of users have had their blogs mistakenly marked as spam, and wanted to sound off real quick to let you know that, despite it being Friday afternoon, we are working hard to sort this out. So to those folks who have received an email saying that your blog has been classified as spam and can't post right now, we offer our sincere apologies for the trouble.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at 12:30 PM | Comments (39) | Add Comment | Trackbacks (Suck)
I don't call 'em 'googlag' fer nuthin'.
I throw stones at the donkey & poke the googlag alligator with sticks all the time, and I've never been bothered by googlag, blogger, or the obamanator.
But, I'm just a no talent hack in my own little blogger backwater.
All Blogger blogs have a link to 'flag' offensive blogs, much like a famous do-it-yourself video site has available. Flag wars are pretty common on that site to bury what one finds offensive.
My guess is that Concrete Bob got 'flagged' by the far left tantric BDS infants who love to practice that particular style of tolerance & free speech.
We on the right simply call it 'hypocrisy'.
Posted by: locomotivebreath1901 at August 01, 2008 01:06 PM (//Ayq)
Posted by: Rhymes With Right at August 01, 2008 02:07 PM (gNl16)
Otherwise, this is some serious Star Chamber-Lite happening.
Posted by: Andrew the Noisy at August 01, 2008 03:15 PM (cntKs)
It seems almost impossible to take a jihadi blogsnot site down, but someone who disagrees with the Messiah? Toast.
Posted by: William Teach at August 01, 2008 04:32 PM (iS/pK)
The Obama Brown shirts must be going around harassing everyone who isn't in lockstep with them.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at August 01, 2008 04:46 PM (SLqkZ)
Of course, I have three more I can post at, so it really wasn't a big deal if one gets shut down.
However, the fact that it can happen at all is chilling enough.
Posted by: cb at August 01, 2008 05:00 PM (Icu6Q)
Posted by: twitley at August 01, 2008 07:21 PM (oH/Xc)
Posted by: Snooper at August 01, 2008 07:31 PM (kDaeN)
Posted by: Snooper at August 01, 2008 07:32 PM (kDaeN)
Same MO, Same message from Blogger, almost 24 hours later and NO RESPONSE to several of my increasingly-heated emails.
They want to play? They better hope and pray some real hackers don't get pissed off or you'll hear them squeal like it's [fill in appropriate year.]
Posted by: mondoreb at August 01, 2008 08:35 PM (hHocG)
Because they talk about doing this kinda thing on their own blogs?
Posted by: Purple Avenger at August 01, 2008 08:43 PM (SLqkZ)
Posted by: William Teach at August 01, 2008 08:50 PM (NaHh8)
Linky, linky, or the accusation's stinky...
Posted by: President Merton Muffley at August 01, 2008 09:15 PM (DE7zN)
Yep, they must be. Hahahaha
Posted by: angryflower at August 02, 2008 12:34 AM (wopgW)
Posted by: goat at August 02, 2008 12:36 AM (z+6oJ)
Just like you corrected your post about all the Vietnam war criminals who should have been prosecuted but for that Obama spokesman who covered everything up etc. etc...
You did correct it, didn't you?
Posted by: skylark at August 02, 2008 03:51 AM (4PQr8)
Next time, try applying basic reasoning and a little investigative effort before you start making accusations.
Posted by: Pete at August 02, 2008 08:38 AM (8VAhx)
Sadly, too many other mistakes and miscues in politics are missing that... "the apology"... and too many pundits, politicos, and yes, bloggers seem to live in terror and fear of the words "I Was Wrong" when proven so...
I suppose this is in hopes of being able to say they have been infallible with their information or that they can claim that their "poop doesn't stink"...
So to you and all the other political bloggers on Blogger (Right and Left) who are 'fessing up that they jumped the gun with blame, I thank you...
Posted by: Matthew James Didier at August 02, 2008 09:02 AM (KU//X)
Posted by: Ken Lowery at August 02, 2008 11:03 AM (ETiok)
Why are Obama supporters thought to be responsible? Why not right wingers, possibly reprising Nixonian dirty tricks?
Frankly? Because they were though to have been behind a similar situation noted in this article in the New York Times. At the time, anti-Obama blogs were thought have been targeted on Blogspot roughly a month ago, and Google "would not explicitly rebut the idea that it had been tricked" with he blog shutdowns. When emails started coming in again yesterday that another round of shutdowns were hitting anti-Obama blogs on Blogspot, it was easy to make the assumption that the culprits were back up to their old tricks.
That assumption turned out to be wrong, for which I apologized.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at August 02, 2008 12:18 PM (HcgFD)
The Economy Killers

Posted by: Confederate Yankee at 10:15 AM | Comments (58) | Add Comment | Trackbacks (Suck)
Do Pelosi/Reid know A? Unless they are fully whacked out, yes. B? Oh, you bet. That is why the determined deflection. Where they fall down is C. Greenism is their religion and as such is not amenable to revision or even inspection. The Green/Marxists who reliably return the obvious loon, Pelosi are actually a tiny and affluent minority even in California. Even Democrats are way over half in support of offshore. If they knew what the hell oil shales are they would be even more for that. ANWR may yet prove a tactical advantage for McCain. His willingness to leave that untapped (for today) can let those reluctantly abandoning the strictest tenates of the Green faith ally themselves with him in a "pragmatic" move. Johnnie has a serious opportunity here and it is not going away because, now or five weeks from now, the Dems will do nothing that has the merest chance of lowering prices. If they truly believe $10 and $12 dollar gas is in the national and global interest they had better be prepared to suffer at the polls. Suffer mightily.
Posted by: megapotamus at August 01, 2008 11:51 AM (LF+qW)
Ive been going through a program called troops2roughnecks. It is a class put on by the troops transition team.
Well we had our first class today, and I learned an interesting tidbit of information that the politicians seem to ignore.
Like any big business, oil and drilling companies do things with tactical intent. Back in the 70s and 80s the drilling companies drilled thousands and thousands of oil and natural gas wells off the coast of the US, then capped them. They do this because they, and everyone else, knows that business is an investment. So you drill and cap, then when market price rises you extract. That way you did a bulk of the work at a lower price. Then the ban was enacted, so these wells sat and were not exploited.
Now we are looking at the ban being lifted.
According to the instructor who has over thirty years of experience in the oil fields, and has worked in everything from a routabout to CEO claims that the oil (and these are proven wells) can be turned over to market within six months. SIX MONTHS!
According to him, there were over 3000 wells dug in the Gulf, around a thousand dug off the coast of California, and between 500 and a thousand dug off the east coast. He says that something like 90% of them were proven oil.
Posted by: Matt at August 01, 2008 04:48 PM (rHW2R)
Today Sen. McConnell offered several Unanimous Consent requests to lift the ban on deep-sea exploration. Democrats objected.
But it got worse!
He asked if Democrats would allow increased deep-sea exploration if the price of gas reached a national average of $4.50. Democrats objected.
He asked if Democrats would allow increased deep-sea exploration if the price of gas reached a national average of $5.00. Democrats objected.
He asked if Democrats would allow increased deep-sea exploration if the price of gas reached a national average of $7.50. Democrats objected.
He asked if Democrats would allow increased deep-sea exploration if the price of gas reached a national average of $10.00. Democrats objected.
The designated objector was Sen. Salazar of Colorado, for those who are interested.
The video can be found here.
Posted by: C-C-G at August 01, 2008 07:56 PM (3XBK8)
I am just about convinced that the left is deliberately attempting to destroy this country.
And they wonder why their approval rating is lower than any other.
Posted by: Matt at August 01, 2008 08:19 PM (rHW2R)
Chickens coming home to roost, indeed.
Posted by: redherkey at August 01, 2008 10:31 PM (kjqFg)
This is the perfect fact to use to explain to people why the oil futures prices, that is, the oil price quoted by the media, always drop at the mere SUGGESTION that we may once again start producing our own oil. There are other, more obscure reasons, too, but this one everyone can grasp instantly.
The world oil markets know all about those capped wells even if our fuzzy headed media elites do not.
Posted by: Bill Smith at August 01, 2008 11:18 PM (dcDTW)
What is the obsession with promoting filthy, dangerous forms of energy? The off-shore drilling will be included in a final bill. The dems are just making sure it won't be the same Big Oil Party jackpot the wingers have provided in the past.
Yours is the party that can't see beyond the next quarterly profit. Yours is the party that sold America out to foreign investment with abandon, killing environmental and labor conditions in trade packages that would make trade fair, not free. Your party has never seen a body of pristine water as anything other than a convenient place to dump your industrial and human waste. Your party is brain damaged by drinking at the Big Oil well for decades. A huge majority of the world hates you, except, of course all those Mid-East billionaires you happily transferred our wealth to all these years, killing alternative energy transportation innovations (but lo-ooving those "financial innovations the Market conjured up!) until the floor gave out.
The 527's write themselves.
Posted by: Becca at August 02, 2008 08:36 AM (AhORU)
Posted by: Matt at August 02, 2008 09:48 AM (rHW2R)
Electric? Well, where are we gonna get the electricity? Wind and solar have the same problems listed above... besides, the high-and-mighty (read: Senators Kennedy and Kerry, among others) don't want windmills on their coast, where it would spoil the view they've spend so many millions to get. Coal and natural gas, which are used now, are also "dirty." And you greenies won't let us use nuclear power, despite the fact that Europe gets a lot of its power from nuclear; one of the few times that the left doesn't want us to follow Europe.
So would you have us return to the days of horse and buggy? You realize that the "emissions" from a horse are even dirtier than those from a gas engine, and are a perfect breeding ground for lots of illnesses. Or maybe you lefties would call that animal cruelty towards horses and have us all walk?
I could go on, but I think I've poked enough holes in your wacky post. Please, feel free to stay away.
Posted by: C-C-G at August 02, 2008 10:35 AM (3XBK8)
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tropical wedding cakes
tropical theme wedding
tropical table lamps
Posted by: dwkffytlfomk at August 04, 2008 07:52 AM (/56oy)
New "Distraction" Alert: Obama Accused of Collecting $24,321.41 From Gaza Strip
Which is illegal if true, but the illegality of foreign campaign contributions well over the $2300 individual limit pales in comparison with the probability that the vast sum of money most likely would have come from Hamas, a terrorist group that had endorsed Obama earlier in the year.
For his part, Obama has publicly maintained that while he "understands" Hamas' view of him, he will not meet with them (Obama campaign advisor Rob Malley resigned in May for meeting with Hamas). It may also be worth noting that Obama's church of 20 years, Trinity United Church of Christ, reprinted an article in their July 22, 2007 church bulletin by Hamas official Moussa Abu Marzook, denying Israel's right to exist (Obama has since severed ties with the church). Obama has been consistent in condemning Hamas and defending Israel's military responses to rocket attacks. Apparently, that message hasn't been received in Gaza.Posted by: Confederate Yankee at 05:14 AM | Comments (32) | Add Comment | Trackbacks (Suck)
Posted by: davod at August 01, 2008 09:03 AM (llh3A)
Posted by: megapotamus at August 01, 2008 11:57 AM (LF+qW)
Posted by: Pamela at August 01, 2008 11:32 PM (STLuB)
Posted by: XBradTC at August 02, 2008 10:14 AM (SfCGt)
July 31, 2008
Two Americas: One Where Kids Are Always Useful Political Props...
.. and that other America, where John Edwards has discontinued a scholarship program to send rural high school graduates to college, now that he is no longer running for President.
Presumably, he now needs that money for another kind of child support.Posted by: Confederate Yankee at 12:06 PM | Comments (28) | Add Comment | Trackbacks (Suck)
Posted by: Big Country at July 31, 2008 12:10 PM (niydV)
Posted by: Penfold at July 31, 2008 12:49 PM (lF2Kk)
Posted by: Andrew the Noisy at July 31, 2008 12:52 PM (cntKs)
Posted by: doubleplusundead at July 31, 2008 01:52 PM (Q3gqU)
Between their theft via excessive taxes, mismanagement of energy policy costing us at the pump, mismanagement of the Federal budget and debt causing my dollar to lose value, and all the damn pork and special interest spending they keep blowing my money on, I already have too much of too few dollars being sent their way. I really need them to at least take care of these basic commitments - either that or shut their narcissistic traps and don't commit to spending what you don't have.
Posted by: redherkey at July 31, 2008 04:13 PM (kjqFg)
Posted by: glenn at July 31, 2008 06:35 PM (zp+Xy)
Posted by: C-C-G at July 31, 2008 06:55 PM (vCJA9)
Posted by: Purple Avenger at July 31, 2008 10:37 PM (SLqkZ)
The Morning After
John McCain's latest ad comparing Barack Obama to Paris Hilton and Britney Spears didn't impress me that much, but appears to have made an impression on all the right people.
Why is such a simple association gaining traction, when far more troubling aspects of Obama's life being ignored or swept away? People don't want to think about the fact that Barack Obama has no executive experience, that this legislative accomplishments are meager, and that his resume is thin. It scares them to look too deep into what he hasn't been able to accomplish... and so they don't. People don't want to think about the fact that Obama is the first presidential candidate in our nation's history with direct ties to domestic terrorists, or radical, conspiracy-mongering clergy... and so they don't. They look at the commanding stage presence. They bask in his oratory, carefully scripted not to offend, or to ask too much. They indulge themselves in his promise that he can be everything they need. They set aside reason. They set aside details. In a swoon, they think only about how he makes them feel now. While followers of Obama have often been compared to religious zealots, the comparison is a false one. Zealots—true believers—can tell you from rote memory the articles of their faith, the details, the specifics that touch their core, often by chapter and verse. Obamaphiles have been challenged time and again to answer what Obama believes in, to provide the substance behind their devotion, to explain what makes Obama "the One." Most supporters offer a blank look when asked about his substance. Others get confused, then angry, though they don't even know why. Some rattle off a list of party-held positions or personally-held beliefs. Some, like the candidate himself, simply wave off such requests for substance as a "distraction." Rachel Lucas and others come the closest in accurately describing Obama lust. It isn't a religious experience. It's beer goggling. After almost eight years of frothing media pounding on the Bush Administration in particular and Republicans in general, and the addled mumblings and several years of toothless bravado of Democratic leadership, continuous campaign chasers, and plenty of cheap shots, we're all tipsy, tired, and ready to fall into the arms of the first attractive thing that comes along. Barack Obama sweeps in wearing a pretty smile. He tells us we're beautiful. He utters sweet nothings in our ears, telling us we are the ones we've been waiting for. He whispers, "It's different not because of me, but because of you. Because you are tired of being disappointed and tired of being let down. You're tired of hearing promises made and plans proposed in the heat of a campaign only to have nothing change." And as he smiles that beautiful smile, and it all sorta make sense if we don't try to dig too deep. He's trying hard to charm our pants off, and we're inclined to believe him, because believing is easier. He's pretty, and he's glitzy, and he's popular, and he's hoping you won't realize the trainwreck he is until the morning after the election. Paris. Barack. Britney. It resonates for a reason.Posted by: Confederate Yankee at 10:42 AM | Comments (29) | Add Comment | Trackbacks (Suck)
Posted by: 1903A3 at July 31, 2008 11:10 AM (0JFRo)
The only thing that will save our collective arses is that a Republican Congress gets elected. If the Democrats retain the majority or even expand it we are really effed.
1) Much higher taxes on more wasteful social programs like Socialized Medicine and the Global tax.
2) Higher fuel prices as he opposes drilling & nuclear. No he hasn't said he opposed to nuclear but "its something to look into" is tantamount to "I'll not implement it, at least not unless it will affect my re-election."
3) Terrible foreign policy, on a level with Carter.
Posted by: Reason at July 31, 2008 11:13 AM (z2S93)
1) Sharon Tate and Charles Manson
2) Vickie Lynn Hogan and Norma Jeane Mortenson
3) Michael Jackson and OJ Simpson
Posted by: Neo at July 31, 2008 11:46 AM (Yozw9)
First, Paris became famous for being famous; she had no discernable accomplishments. Thus, she is a powerful symbol for pointing out Obama's threadbare record.
Second, Bonnie Fuller quite recently wrote (at Conde Nast Portfolio.com) that the Obamas have made a concerted effort to market themselves through celeb mags like People and US Weekly. Something about wanting to be like the Brangelina of politics. Thus, the ad plays to the demographic so targeted by the Obamas.
Third, as you note, what Obama runs on is his stage presence. The ad is making a direct attack on his strength. It is quite Rovian in that regard. It seeks to turn his strength into a weakness, much like what happened to Kerry and his military record in 2004.
Posted by: Karl at July 31, 2008 11:47 AM (qje1A)
“I swear I’ll pull out”
“Of course I’ll still respect you in the Morning”
“I would never lie to you baby… for real!”
“Of course I love you…”
And there’s a lot more where that came from. Any guy who’s ever tried to bed down some random chick knows the lines… Obama has just adapted them to his political campaign.
Posted by: Big Country at July 31, 2008 12:09 PM (niydV)
Posted by: Bandit at July 31, 2008 03:13 PM (nX3lF)
Posted by: Mark E at July 31, 2008 04:19 PM (x4EHd)
Methinks he doth protest too much.
Posted by: C-C-G at July 31, 2008 06:58 PM (vCJA9)
I never feel a thing is real,
When I'm away from you.
Out of your embrace,
The world's a temporary parking place.
Mmm, mm, mm, mm...
A bubble for a minute.
Mmm, mm, mm, mm...
You smile, the bubble has a rainbow in it.
Say it's only a paper moon,
Sailing over a cardboard sea.
But it wouldn't be make-believe
If you believed in me.
Sing it!
Posted by: Mikey NTH at July 31, 2008 07:03 PM (TUWci)
In case you haven't grokked the vid, the point is that Barry is like Paris in that they both enjoy great fame without any genuine accomplishment.
Posted by: Casey at August 01, 2008 12:28 AM (RJSy/)
I think a more accurate phrasing is "turn his apparent strength into a weakness." Kerry's military record wasn't really that strong, and let's remember that nobody has conclusively refuted the Swift Boat vets either, they just lied and said they did.
Posted by: Rick C at August 01, 2008 11:02 AM (1eRW7)
Perhaps. We're discussing advertising and marketing, so "apparent" is really assumed here. It's what Kerry was selling as a strength and his opponents took it head on to show it really was a weakness, much as the subtext of this ad is showing that Obama's strength (able to give a speech) is really a weakness (that's all he's got). When I call it Rovian, it's not intended as an insult or Leftist dog-whistle. It's merely a description of a technique Rove mastered.
Posted by: Karl at August 02, 2008 02:23 AM (Vu7ui)
July 30, 2008
Choose The Facts You Want...
...as there seem to be plenty of "facts" to choose from.
James Hider in the UK TimesOnline is just one journalist of many rushing to tell the tragic story of a young Palestinian ruthlessly gunned down by an Israeli soldier:It doesn't much look like a chest wound.
Israeli soldiers shot dead a young Palestinian boy today during heated protests in a West Bank village close to Israel's huge separation barrier. Hammad Hossam Mussa, believed to be around nine years old, was mortally wounded by an Israeli bullet as protestors threw rocks near the West Bank close to the village of Nilin. [snip] Salah Al Khawaja, a member of Nilin's Committee Against the Wall, said Israeli troops fired live rounds at a group of protesters who ran into Nilin after security forces dispersed demonstrators using rubber-coated bullets. "Protesters arrived at the wall's construction site outside the village and the soldiers started to open fire with rubber bullets and tear gas. This pushed the protesters back into the village where the boy was hit by a live bullet in his chest," he said.

Posted by: Confederate Yankee at 09:42 AM | Comments (39) | Add Comment | Trackbacks (Suck)
And what the hell is a 9 year old doing at a rock throwing "protest"?
Posted by: Smarty at July 30, 2008 10:37 AM (ft/YQ)
Posted by: George Bruce at July 30, 2008 01:00 PM (v4XVE)
Posted by: Capitalist Infidel at July 30, 2008 02:49 PM (kNqJV)
Posted by: Purple Avenger at July 30, 2008 02:51 PM (SLqkZ)
While even a thrown rock can cause injury and even death, using a sling to hurl rocks is an attack using deadly force. The reporters neglect to mention that. The sling is a cheap, simple to make, and easily concealable weapon. If Israeli forces are met by bands of Palestinians using slings no wonder they are reacting with deadly force.
Posted by: Reason at July 30, 2008 03:14 PM (FaCaW)
Posted by: johnrw at July 30, 2008 03:59 PM (pvnPQ)
The Galil is an older rifle that has been mostly phased out of IDF frontline units in favor of newer weapons like the M-16/M-4. However, of the four Galil variants, three of them fire the 5.56 NATO round, the same round used in the M-16/M-4. (I believe one variant of the Galil was chambered for the 7.62) But infantry units in the IDF are using the M-16/M-4. Some frontline units are using the new Tavor, which also fires the 5.56 NATO.
Posted by: Eric at July 30, 2008 04:40 PM (fF2Om)
Posted by: Capitalist Infidel at July 30, 2008 06:44 PM (kNqJV)
Posted by: C-C-G at July 30, 2008 06:52 PM (vCJA9)
You have given 3 labels/names...
1. genocidal
2. islamist
3. fascists
of which only 1 can be possible...
1. Genocidal to whom? When you steal my land... and I fight back it's not called genocide... it's called Freedom Fighting. Not that Palestinians have 9 year old Freedom Fighters.
2. True. Islam is just a religeon.
3. Since they have no State to be fascistic with... that's laughable. I would call Israel a Fascistic State... using it's Defense Forces to do a lot more than "Defense."
Yes... there is nothing wrong with arming a people to fight back. American support for Israel's existance may be broad... but it's not Deep. It's recently lost mine. I'm voting for Ralph since Obama wears a yamika, from time to time.
Posted by: johnrw at July 30, 2008 08:43 PM (pvnPQ)
Posted by: cathyf at July 30, 2008 11:47 PM (w57lR)
What was this one all about? Yeah... the more I look into Israel... the more disgusted I get.
(I just started this yesterday.)
Israeli Army Suspends Cmdr Over West Bank Shooting - Sources
JERUSALEM (AFP)--The Israeli army Tuesday suspended a commander for 10 days after he failed a lie-detection test over the shooting with a rubber-coated bullet of a blindfolded and handcuffed Palestinian, military sources told
read THAT story here...
http://www.silobreaker.com/DocumentReader.aspx?Item=5_885325076
Posted by: johnrw at July 31, 2008 02:48 AM (pvnPQ)
I got a "Server Error Encountered" and now there's a duplicate.
Posted by: johnrw at July 31, 2008 03:08 AM (pvnPQ)
I got a Server Error when posting... and now there's a duplicate. Something about scroogle.cgi
john
Posted by: johnrw at July 31, 2008 03:12 AM (pvnPQ)
The palis are willing pawns of the rest of the arab world. They and their masters need to be blown back to the stone age.
Posted by: Smarty at July 31, 2008 10:30 AM (ft/YQ)
2. True. Islam is just a religeon.
3. Since they have no State to be fascistic with... that's laughable. I would call Israel a Fascistic State... using it's Defense Forces to do a lot more than "Defense.""
Okay...
1. When you wish to kill an entire nation and drive them into the sea, as Hamas et. al, have repeately said they wish to do...then that's genocide.
2. He didn't say "Islam" he said "Islamist". The former is a religion with numerous varieties and 900+ million adherents. The latter is an ideology which is a variant and some say a perversion of the aforementioned religion, which, briefly, wants to kill or compel obedience from all who are not members. The aformentioned Hamas and most other Palestinian resistance groups have more than superficial ties to the latter.
3. By your argument, Hitler would not have been a fascist until after he became Chancellor of Germany. Fascism is an ideology; one does not need to have a state to be one.
As to Israel, what do its Defense Forces do that is not Defense (if you say "Offense" prepare to be laughed at), and what does that have to do with Fascism?
Posted by: Andrew the Noisy at July 31, 2008 01:57 PM (cntKs)
It’s time to cut them ALL off. Stop buying our oil from them, stop sending out aid, and close up shop and let them ‘rot on the vine.’
Posted by: Big Country at July 31, 2008 02:01 PM (niydV)
You did not read the posts I made... and their links.
Shooting 9 year old children to Death... Shooting bound(handcuffed, zip tie whatever it was) and blindfolded Palestinians... What do you call that? Defense? Or maybe it is that you have some perverse permutation of the word in mind...
I'm no Arab... but if this is the kind of treatment the neighbors are giving the Palestinians, who technically hold the only land claim to the land Israel sits on, well since 1948 anyways... then maybe it is time for the Palestinian big brothers to come to their aid.
I got news for you Israel supporters... as the world goes past peak oil... and oil gets scarcer and scarcer... the big ole USA is going to be able to offer less and less protection to the squatters on Palestinian lands over there. Hedge your bets.
You can try and shush everybody who doesn't "Just Love Israel" or paint them with a swastica and as a Hitler supporter... but still... your time is running out. China blocking the UN sanctions against Zimbabwe... shows they don't just go handing out sanctions like parking tickets. They said something about it not being important enough, doesn't shake the world up enouhh. As China's economy takes more and more control... makes you wonder what side effects will happen.
I have watched the USA from within learn to live more and more like Israelis(afraid of everything) over the last 7 years or so... and it isn't becoming of those whose fathers and mothers conquered a continent. Israelis never conquered the land they are on. They used trckery and chicanery and the Britian/UN. Ok, enough.
I did notice that story seems to have been buried.
Well, the 9 year old boy's name was Hammad Hossam Mussa.
Posted by: johnrw at July 31, 2008 10:10 PM (pvnPQ)
You did not read the posts I made... and their links.
Shooting 9 year old children to Death... Shooting bound(handcuffed, zip tie whatever it was) and blindfolded Palestinians... What do you call that? Defense? Or maybe it is that you have some perverse permutation of the word in mind...
I'm no Arab... but if this is the kind of treatment the neighbors are giving the Palestinians, who technically hold the only land claim to the land Israel sits on, well since 1948 anyways... then maybe it is time for the Palestinian big brothers to come to their aid.
I got news for you Israel supporters... as the world goes past peak oil... and oil gets scarcer and scarcer... the big ole USA is going to be able to offer less and less protection to the squatters on Palestinian lands over there. Hedge your bets.
You can try and shush everybody who doesn't "Just Love Israel" or paint them with a swastica and as a Hitler supporter... but still... your time is running out. China blocking the UN sanctions against Zimbabwe... shows they don't just go handing out sanctions like parking tickets. They said something about it not being important enough, doesn't shake the world up enouhh. As China's economy takes more and more control... makes you wonder what side effects will happen.
I have watched the USA from within learn to live more and more like Israelis(afraid of everything) over the last 7 years or so... and it isn't becoming of those whose fathers and mothers conquered a continent. Israelis never conquered the land they are on. They used trickery and chicanery and the Britian/UN. Ok, enough.
I did notice that story seems to have been buried.
Well, the 9 year old boy's name was Hammad Hossam Mussa.
Posted by: johnrw at July 31, 2008 10:11 PM (pvnPQ)
Summer Camp?
That is what Reuter's says this picture portrays.

Posted by: Confederate Yankee at 08:22 AM | Comments (25) | Add Comment | Trackbacks (Suck)
Posted by: Andrew the Noisy at July 31, 2008 12:54 PM (cntKs)
Posted by: megapotamus at August 01, 2008 03:15 PM (LF+qW)
Posted by: Andrew the Noisy at August 02, 2008 10:06 AM (cntKs)
July 29, 2008
Lynching, Lynching Everywhere...
Just when you thought the Huffington Post couldn't become any more self-parodying, someone comes along to make it even more laughable:
Or perhaps Colbert, his audience, and the millions of people who have heard this song since it first hit number 1 in 2003 are simply far more grounded in reality than Mr. Max Blumenthal, who apparently sees a chance to scream "oppression!" behind every rock, tree, and country-western movie and music lyric. After listing the lyrics to what was until now the uncontroversial lyrics of a song
Despite his background as a comedian, Stephen Colbert is known by many of the authors who have appeared on his show as one of the toughest interviewers in the business. But on July 28, when country music superstar Toby Keith stepped on the set of the Colbert Report to promote his movie, Beer For My Horses, he was greeted by his host with nothing less than reverential admiration. After a jovial, back-slapping sit-down with Keith, Colbert turned the stage over to his guest for a performance of the song that inspired the title and theme of his forthcoming "Southern comedy." While Keith belted out "Beer For My Horses," Colbert's studio audience clapped to the beat, blithely unaware that they were swaying to a racially tinged, explicitly pro-lynching anthem that calls for the vigilante-style hanging of car thieves, "gangsters doing dirty deeds...crime in the streets," and other assorted evildoers.
about a "thirst for justice," Blumenthal whines that:
Though it will doubtlessly come as a shock to Mr. Blumenthal, this song, co-written by Scotty Emerick, is not autobiographical, any more than Keith's "I Love This Bar" is an ode to an illicit man-on-mahogany affair. The song is entirely fictional and rhetorically set in the Old West, as the imagery of horses, whiskey, saloons, gun smoke, outlaws, and the "long arm of the law" clearly evoked for anyone reasonably grounded in this reality. Conveniently,Blumenthal glosses over that the lyrics of Keith's song include the all-important words "It's time the long arm of the law put a few more in the ground." This singularly expressed and culturally understood idea of the Old West deputized posse, led by sheriffs and marshalls operating under the color of law and made famous in hundreds of western movies and television shows over decades as part of our shared cultural heritage that Keith is drawing on utterly undermines Blumenthal's creation. It is a delusion undone, revealing far more about Blumenthal's tortured psychology than Keith's lyrics, Colbert's insightfulness, or America's past. Mr. Keith has every right to whimsically sing about whiskey for his men and beer for his horses, even as he might suggest that Mr. Blumenthal can (and probably should) take a nice tranquilizer with his merlot. Perhaps for tomorrow's amusement Arianna Huffington can find a delusion even more spectacular than Blumental's latest—with Naomi Wolf lurking in the background, that is always a possibility—it's that prospect of ever more unintentionally funny, lethally-refined insanity that keep us coming back, time and again. 08/08/08 Update: Toby Keith himself hears about Blumenthal's moronic lynching claims, and tees off:
During the days when Toby Keith's "Grandpappy" stalked the Jim Crow South, lynching was an institutional method of terror employed against blacks to maintain white supremacy.
"It's about the old west and horses and sheriffs and posses and going and getting the bad guys. It's not a racist thing or about lynching. The song was a hit and the words lynch and racism has never come up until this moron wrote this blog."
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at 01:44 PM | Comments (66) | Add Comment | Trackbacks (Suck)
"Mama just killed a man,
Put a gun against his head, pulled my trigger, now he's dead."
Of course, the perp in this case (as sung by Freddie Mercury, who was gay) gets his justice in the end.
Posted by: Mark at July 29, 2008 02:03 PM (4od5C)
In Gainesville they passed a law to protect the LGBT community from prejudice, end result, a man can walk into ladies restrooms and changing areas freely... the catch? All he has to say is that in his head "he feels" like a woman. Nice huh?
Thanks Liberalism...
Posted by: Buffoon at July 29, 2008 02:25 PM (EsVCm)
No where in the song does it mention lynching, it mentions hanging which was an approved method of execution for quite a while.
Posted by: Reason at July 29, 2008 02:25 PM (FaCaW)
Posted by: BohicaTwentyTwo at July 29, 2008 03:16 PM (oC8nQ)
Blu-mental-hal can suck it...
Posted by: Big Country at July 29, 2008 04:10 PM (9dP7o)
Posted by: Techie at July 29, 2008 04:24 PM (UyfPZ)
Why?
"And I ain't seen the sunshine since I don't know when,
I'm stuck in Folsom prison, and time keeps draggin' on."
Posted by: Reason at July 29, 2008 04:30 PM (FaCaW)
Now, there's a Bushitler, knuckledragging, Republikkkan if I've ever seen one.
Posted by: Techie at July 29, 2008 04:32 PM (UyfPZ)
Posted by: Bandit at July 29, 2008 04:50 PM (D3sAj)
This foolish person seems to lack the ability or knowledge, perhaps both, to fathom that the reality of life in this mythic "old west" was not as simple as Grandpappy's wisdom would lead you to believe. In fact, neither is the present, much to their disappointment.
The Old West was not a western movie where you hung the bad guys because you just saw them do bad things or the hero's dog pees on their leg. A lack of law enforcement, if there were laws, was dealt with through vigilantism. While expedient it lacked the due process we enjoy today and risked hanging innocents. Racist lynchings went way beyond justice into truly heinous, vicious mob violence bordering on ritualistic sacrifice.
Blumenthal is Chicken Little but those who are looking at justice through John Wayne movie eyeglasses aren't any brighter.
Posted by: j swift at July 29, 2008 05:08 PM (fMU2X)
Or, those bunch of people who stood around and watched a grown man stomp a two year old to death.
That is why these folks are so disconnected from the rest of us. We think "look, bad thing happening, do something." (point of the song, entirely). They think, "oh, that's a shame, somebody should really do something" and don't even bother to call the police.
toby's song resonates because people get frustrated with the seeming inconsistant judicial system and what seems to be a societal gravitational pull towards excusing people's behavior.
If ol' Blumers doesn't want to hear songs like that, he can turn off his TV and radio.
In the end, though, I think ol' Blumers probably hasn't liked Toby since he wrote "courtesy of the red, white and blue". You know, that just wasn't very politically nuanced nor understanding of the great misdeeds that America has perpetrated against the Middle East and other nations.
/sarcasm
Posted by: kat-missouri at July 29, 2008 05:25 PM (YLs4U)
Posted by: Michael Pate at July 29, 2008 05:36 PM (2Km1S)
I suspect, he was strangely silent about that issue. After all, he couldn't blame those lyrics on "right-wingers."
Posted by: C-C-G at July 29, 2008 06:50 PM (vCJA9)
Posted by: Retread at July 29, 2008 06:55 PM (sB3Iz)
Posted by: Bozoer Rebbe at July 29, 2008 07:47 PM (Jx7KV)
I saw the interview—there was neither "reverential admiration" nor a "jovial, back-slapping sit-down." Stephen Colbert was his usual, self-aggrandizing self, and the interview followed the same format: Stephen asks the guest questions and then inserts editorial comments designed to make everything about himself. Toby Keith seemed to be enjoying himself; this WAS his second time on the show after all.
I just think Blumenthal was just jealous he wasn't asked on the show...
Posted by: colbertfan27 at July 29, 2008 09:37 PM (aTg6i)
Posted by: Griffen Cole at July 29, 2008 10:10 PM (GAf+S)
Posted by: Scrapiron at July 29, 2008 11:32 PM (GAf+S)
Perhaps, Mr. Max Blumenthal has some sins he wants to share with the rest of us?
The song is just funny, liberals not so much. And I am getting tired of liberal Democrats attempting to brand Republicans with their sins.
Posted by: bill-tb at July 30, 2008 07:36 AM (7evkT)
Posted by: Smarty at July 30, 2008 10:43 AM (ft/YQ)
It's almost as pathetic as trying to tell me "the six o'clock news" is an Old West reference.
Posted by: Sarcastro at July 30, 2008 01:09 PM (L761i)
Funny, I don't see anything in the lyrics to support that. The song's narrator puts the lynching "back in [the] day" of his "grandpappy." Even if the narrator is supposed to be older than the songwriters (b. 1961 and 1973), that doesn't get you much past the early 20th century, well within the Jim Crow era (and at best at the tail end of the Old West era). The two overlap substantially, so there's no necessary conflict, but your criticism on these grounds is silly. And there's just no reason to think that the rest of the song is about the old west rather than today. Unless you're under the impression that the 6 o’clock news was a feature of western towns. What, did they use a town crier or something? Also, your strange idea that the phrase "the long arm of the law" is universally understood to reference the posses of the old west is, frankly, absurd. Can you give any support for this? I suspect you pulled it right out of your ass, but I'm willing to be corrected. Oh, and as for the bit about the "imagery of horses, whiskey, etc..." proving the old west setting, you are aware that country singers (and their fans) often use such imagery figuratively? You know, like saying "saddle up" when you're actually planning to drive somewhere rather than riding a horse?
You can criticize Blumenthal for making too much of a song if you like (I'd probably agree as far as that goes), but your assertions that the song isn't actually a celebration of vigilante justice and has nothing to do with current events is just bizarre. Maybe you could try a less unhinged style of criticism, without the repeated reference to "delusions". Then again, maybe you should just write what you know.
Posted by: Larv at July 30, 2008 03:01 PM (6YCw9)
From your comment I can deduce this: you are unfamiliar with the song and its video.
Might I suggest you watch video? If you do, the lyrics would then be in context. Otherwise, you do not have the appropriate information to intelligently comment.
Posted by: Mark at July 30, 2008 03:46 PM (4od5C)
I am familiar with the song. I'm not sure what would make you think otherwise. I'm not familiar with the video, but that's pretty much irrelevant. The song predates the video, and videos are (IME) frequently made with only a tangential connection to the lyrics of the song. Are you suggesting that songs are uninterpretable in the absense of an accompanying video? Makes you wonder what music fans did before MTV. Look, songs are written as songs, not videos, and are generally performed without video accompaniment. As such, they can stand or fall on their own merits.
Instead of making ignorant deductions about my supposed ignorance, maybe you'd care to supply some of the context I'm supposedly missing out on?
Posted by: Larv at July 30, 2008 04:12 PM (6YCw9)
My humble appologies for being only 1/2 right in my deduction. You are familiar with the song. You are not familiar with the video.
In this case I am familiar with the song. I'm not sure what would make you think otherwise. I'm not familiar with the video, but that's pretty much irrelevant. The song predates the video, and videos are (IME) frequently made with only a tangential connection to the lyrics of the song. you are incorrect. In this case, the video has direct connection with the lyrics.
The song was released with the video. It is true the song was recorded before the video was made. However, the two are inseparable due to their conjoined release. Unlike many videos (I'm not a big music video fan), this one does in fact provide the context needed for the lyrics.
For me to explain the video is a waste of time. Watch it and decide for yourself how 'appropriate' the lyrics are.
Your comment (July 30, 2008 03:01 PM) about the imagery argument only holds partial water. Whoever you quoted (too lazy to read back) doesn't quite have a grasp of the imagery themselves. You have none.
And that, sir, is where you are "missing out".
Posted by: Mark at July 30, 2008 04:27 PM (4od5C)
It is true the song was recorded before the video was made. However, the two are inseparable due to their conjoined release. Um, no, actually they aren't. You even say so: "the song was recorded before the video was made." So they were produced separately, but are nevertheless somehow inseperable (presumably in some non-chronological sense). Is it your contention that they were both written at the same time? This seems highly unlikely, so I'd like to see some support for it if so.
Ok, so I watched the video, and I'm utterly confused about what context I was supposed to see. It's sure not set in the old west. Is it that the protagonists in the video are law enforcement, so the song can't be about vigilantism? This seems directly contradicted by the lyrics, which as we've established precedes the video:
Take all the rope in texas
Find a tall oak tree, round up all of them bad boys
Hang them high in the street for all the people to see that
Even in the old west, they didn't hang people from trees unless they were in a hurry. You have time for a trial, you have time to build a gallows. Hanging somebody from a tree is, to use CYs words, a "singularly expressed and culturally understood" symbol of a lynching. Even if it's done by a posse, it's still a lynching.
Also:
We got too many gangsters doing dirty deeds
Weve got too much corruption, too much crime in the streets
Its time the long arm of the law put a few more in the ground
This is at best ambiguous. It does say "the law" and so can be taken to refer to law enforcement. But vigilantes generally see themselves as agents of the law, taking over when legitimate agents refuse to act. Combined with the earlier lyrics, it's hardly delusional to think it's a reference to vigilantism. The actual justice system doesn't generally execute people for "doing dirty deeds" (even if they were done dirt cheap), or corruption, or "crime in the street," unless it's murder. Maybe you read it as a critique of our judicial system and a recommendation that capital punishment be extended to lesser crimes like stealing cars?
Look, I don't think it's worthwhile criticizing songs as if the writer meant every word of it. Hyperbole and overstatement are common in most musical genres. I don't really think Keith is actually recommending increased lynching as a solution to society's problems. But that is the plain meaning of the lyrics, and CY is pretending that it isn't, that instead it's just a song about the good old west. Sorry, but it's about vigilantism.
Posted by: Larv at July 30, 2008 06:01 PM (k8PBw)
Maybe that's because the Democrats haven't updated their policies since about that time...still pushing big government as the answer for every perceived problem.
Posted by: C-C-G at July 30, 2008 06:44 PM (vCJA9)
Posted by: Bill Smith at July 30, 2008 07:21 PM (LCyEC)
Larv,
Your stated problem was (from your blockquote) The song is entirely fictional and rhetorically set in the Old West, as the imagery of horses, whiskey, saloons, gun smoke, outlaws, and the "long arm of the law" clearly evoked for anyone reasonably grounded in this reality.
As I said previously Your comment (July 30, 2008 03:01 PM) about the imagery argument only holds partial water. Whoever you quoted (too lazy to read back) doesn't quite have a grasp of the imagery themselves. You have none.\blockquote>
Now that you have seen the video, perhaps you might concede the "in my granddaddy’s day" is in reference to the old Texas Rangers memorabilia somewhere near the end of the 1st 3rd of the video. I said whoever you quoted didn't have the imagery correct themselves.
Put those "old west" words into the context of the old Texas Rangers (albeit romanticized a bit much in the song and video) and you now have the context of "lynching". It happened a heck of a lot more 80+ years ago than in today's law enforcement.
The other subtext of the lyrics/video is the lax justice currently served by our system. The perp in the song/video is a rapist/murderer. In that case 80+ years ago, that perp was either riding lighting or strung up in a gallows.
Today, they are given in most states at 'worst' death row for 20+ years and at 'best' parole/acquittal.
The point of "putting a few more in the ground" is rather self-explanatory.
Think about it before claiming 'I don't get it'. A dead perp isn't going to be perpetrating again. If wannabe perps had that fear, how many do you think would go through with it?
Being contrary just to be contrary simply doesn’t cut it, Larv.
Posted by: Mark at July 30, 2008 08:31 PM (w/olL)
Um, no, actually they aren't. You even say so: "the song was recorded before the video was made." So they were produced separately, but are nevertheless somehow inseperable (presumably in some non-chronological sense). Is it your contention that they were both written at the same time? This seems highly unlikely, so I'd like to see some support for it if so.
You missed the "conjoined release" part, Larv. Being made/created and being released are two very different things. Nice try on the attempted parse though.
Posted by: Mark at July 30, 2008 09:51 PM (w/olL)
It's a song. Just a song. If you don't like it, don't listen. It must be nice to have so much time on your hands to disect a song.
Posted by: Michael Smith at July 31, 2008 08:24 AM (j1ILX)
You keep trying to pretend that the song is the video is the song. It isn't. It simply doesn't matter if they were released together, that's just a marketing decision. The video is an interpretation of the song, it isn't the song itself. Otherwise the video director would get equal creative credit. Statements like "the perp in the song/video is a rapist/murderer" therefore make no sense, because the video is not the song. You keep claiming that because the bad guy in the video is a killer, that must be what the song is about, but the lyrics just don't support you at all. "Weve got too much corruption, too much crime in the streets/Its time the long arm of the law put a few more in the ground" Do you think that increased execution of murderers is going to act as a deterrent against corruption? That seems a bit questionable.
Put those "old west" words into the context of the old Texas Rangers (albeit romanticized a bit much in the song and video) and you now have the context of "lynching". It happened a heck of a lot more 80+ years ago than in today's law enforcement.
Okay, and? The point of the initial criticism (by Blumenthal) was that the song glorifies lynching. That lynching was once more popular than it is today doesn't change that. And I don't care if it's Texas Rangers doing the stringing up, it's still lynching.
And you pretty much grant my point in the rest of your comment. The justice sytem isn't killing enough criminals to create a sufficient deterrent. This is exactly the justification most vigilantes use to justify their vigilantism. I assume you saw the Death Wish movies back in the day. Isn't that exactly what Chuck Bronson was doing? You keep claiming that because the bad guy in the video is a killer, that must be what the song is about, but the lyrics just don't support you at all. "Weve got too much corruption, too much crime in the streets/Its time the long arm of the law put a few more in the ground" Do you think that increased execution of murderers is going to act as a deterrent against corruption? That seems a bit questionable.
Posted by: Larv at July 31, 2008 09:23 AM (6YCw9)
It's a song. Just a song. If you don't like it, don't listen. It must be nice to have so much time on your hands to disect a song.
Yeah, I acknowledged that in my last comment yesterday. I'm not criticizing the song, I'm criticizing the attempt to pretend it's about something other than what it is. The Dead Kennedys have a song called "Lets Lynch the Landlord." Guess what, I don't think they're actually advocating murder. But it'd be pretty stupid to try and claim that the song's not really about killing landlords.
And yes, I do have a lot of time on my hands. Slow days at work this week.
Just as a bonus, from Bill Smith:And still trying to paint Republicans with that racist history, pretty much as they have painted nazis -- the contraction of the the German words for National SOCIALISM -- as RIGHT wing, when they were, in fact, far to the LEFT, and had a treaty with Stalin's USSR, until Hitler double crossed them.
This may be the stupidest thing I've read this week. Yeah, that's why the Nazis hated the German Communists and sent them to the concentration camps before almost anyone else, because they were just so similar. Seriously, the utter ignorance of history or political science required to say this is mind-boggling. The treaty between the Nazis and the Soviets wasn't a matter of political alliance, it was simple pragmatism: they both hated their loss of territory after WWI, and Molotov-Ribbentrop was a way of regaining possesions in Eastern Europe while avoiding a two-front war for either(the Russians were at war with the Japanese whan it was signed). But no, the fact that Socialist was in the name of the Nazi party is obviously the dispositive factor here. Or not.
Posted by: Larv at July 31, 2008 10:15 AM (6YCw9)
Enough. My basic point is the song AND the video taken together draw a more complete picture of any 'statement' the artist(s) attempted to make. The context the two parts make are inseparable in that sense.
I completely disagree with you on the 'glorification' of lynching aspect. The song makes a historical connection to the subject with respect to CRIMINALS. The song/video do NOT make the connection to the KKK's lynching blacks.
Posted by: Larv at July 31, 2008 10:43 AM (4od5C)
I agree that it's enough, neither of us is going to convince the other. I'm just bored and this is a diverting argument. I think it's a serious mistake to view a song/video as a cohesive artistic statement, though. That just isn't how music is made.
I also think you're making a serious error in drawing a hard line between the lynching of criminals and blacks or other minorities. The Blumenthal piece that started this mentions the case of a Jewish man, Leo Frank, who was wrongly convicted of murder. When his innocence became obvious and his sentence was commuted, angry citizens broke into the jail, kidnapped him, and lynched him. The rhetoric used by his killers was transparently racist. Now, did they lynch him because he was a "criminal", or because he was a Jew? Maybe you're confident that lynchers are always careful to make that distinction, but I'm not.
Posted by: Larv at July 31, 2008 11:39 AM (6YCw9)
Also, a brief perusal of the history will indicate that communists sent other communists and socialists to concentration camps with great regularity. Indeed, Lenin stamped the Socialist Revolutionaries out of existence as soon as he was able. This hardly makes the SR's right-wingers (although they were divided into two camps, called "right" SR's and "left" SR's, this was a division about the timing of the inception of Socialism, and thus, similar to the divide between the Bolsheviks and the Mensheviks. None qualify as conservatives). Thus, the fact that Nazis jailed and killed Communists has nothing whatever do with where exactly the Nazi's belong on the great left-right axis, which is a debate with a great deal more complexity then you seem willing to display.
Posted by: Andrew the Noisy at July 31, 2008 01:19 PM (cntKs)
The point is, Larv, that Blumenthal looks for Klansmen when none are in evidence. There is nothing in the song that expresses hostility to blacks or glorification of whites qua whites.
Yes, blacks were lynched in the Old South. And horse thieves were lynched in the Old West, as were numerous other types of perp. To suggest that the former and not the latter are the focus of the song lacks a serious basis.
Ah, but it COULD be about lynching blacks. That's perfectly true. and it COULD be about lynching a crash-landed space alien who looks suspiciously like the one that probed Bobby-Jack's rectum last week.
The question is, given the three options:
a) the song is about lynching blacks, though the text is not explicit on this
b) the song is about lynching criminals, a staple of western music and movies, references to which are explicit in the song and even more explicit in the video
c) the song is about vengeance for Bobby Jack's rectum, 'cos the poor fellow ain't sat down for a week without hollerin'
which is the BEST answer?
Posted by: Andrew the Noisy at July 31, 2008 01:29 PM (cntKs)
My great thanks to Andrew the Noisy for being much more succinct than I.
Posted by: Mark at July 31, 2008 02:17 PM (4od5C)
I have no particular problem with your points about the song or Blumenthals column. That's a legitimate criticism of Blumenthal's column. Claiming the song isn't about lynching or has nothing to do with current events isn't. My sole point was that the song isn't "entirely fictional and rhetorically set in the Old West" as our host claimed. I read Blumenthal as disapproving of lynching imagery in general, due to the historical associations with racism and the KKK. I think he makes too much of the song, and I said as much in my first comment. But it isn't crazy to object to a song which glorifies lynching at a time when lots of black people were getting lynched. My sensitivity to such things isn't as great as his apparently is, but it's the kind of thing that people tend to feel strongly about. And my point about the bleed-over between racist lynchings and anti-criminal lynchings stands.
As for the Nazi stuff, please. Thus, the fact that Nazis jailed and killed Communists has nothing whatever do with where exactly the Nazi's belong on the great left-right axis, which is a debate with a great deal more complexity then you seem willing to display.
Um, the comment I was responding to wasn't the sort that requires a complex discussion of the intersection of Fascism and Nazism and their place in the greater political context of the day. It was, frankly, silly. The Nazis were leftists because the word "socialist" is in their name? The existence of a non-aggression pact is evidence of ideological solidarity? That's just ludicrous. Are you really willing to defend the assertion that the Nazis belong more to the left (far to the left, as Bill says) than to the right? 'Cause that's just crazy, complexity or no.
Oh, and incidentally, the Soviets and the Japanese were not, in fact, at war in 1939.
Yes, sure, there was no declared war, my apologies for my imprecision. I'm sure you also correct people when they say that we're currently at war, right?
Posted by: Larv at July 31, 2008 03:39 PM (6YCw9)
The comment may have indeed been a tiresome cliche, but so was your response, which bodes not well for the argument that the other person is stupid and you are not. And yes, I am willing to make the argument that the Nazis were a lot more of the left than people such as yourself are willing to admit. And the more you say, "That's just crazy," the more persuasive you aren't.
As to your anti-nitpick defense re: Kalinin Gol, the point is not that the war wasn't declared, its that it wasn't a war. Two skirmishes do not a war make, and even if they did, they were kept secret by the participants (the rest of the world didn't hear about them until after WW2), so their relevance to your point about Molotov-Ribbentropp is entirely non-existent.
So, unless you want to trot out that equally tiresome cliche, that I'm being "pedantic", just admit that you were misinformed. No big deal, it happens all the time.
Posted by: Andrew the Noisy at July 31, 2008 04:41 PM (cntKs)
Speaking of cliches, how about "ask a stupid question, get a stupid answer"? You can sniff about it all you want, but I don't feel the need to give an in-depth response to a comment as shallow as Bill's. You say that you're "willing to make the argument that the Nazis were a lot more of the left than people such as yourself are willing to admit." First, you have no idea what I'm willing to admit. Second, that's not the claim I was responding to. I objected to Bill's claim that the Nazis were "far to the left," which is, again, transparently silly. It's not a tired cliche, it's just wrong.
As to your anti-nitpick defense re: Kalinin Gol, the point is not that the war wasn't declared, its that it wasn't a war. Two skirmishes do not a war make, and even if they did, they were kept secret by the participants (the rest of the world didn't hear about them until after WW2), so their relevance to your point about Molotov-Ribbentropp is entirely non-existent.
The Soviets and Japanese were in a state of armed conflict at the time of M-R, and the Japanese were obviously being courted by the Germans. The Soviets thus had reason to fear the prospect of a two-front war, making my point entirely relevant. Your point that the conflict wasn't known to the rest of the world, on the other hand, actually is irrelevant. Further, I suggest you get cracking on writing to everyone who has referred to this series of "skirmishes" as the Soviet-Japanese Border Wars and inform them that they are incorrect. So no, I wasn't misinformed, just using "at war" as a common shorthand for "in a state of armed conflict." And yes, you are being pedantic. No big deal, it happens all the time.
Posted by: Larv at August 01, 2008 11:58 AM (6YCw9)
So you freely admit that your answer was stupid. All I need to hear.
"You say that you're "willing to make the argument that the Nazis were a lot more of the left than people such as yourself are willing to admit." First, you have no idea what I'm willing to admit. Second, that's not the claim I was responding to. I objected to Bill's claim that the Nazis were "far to the left," which is, again, transparently silly. It's not a tired cliche, it's just wrong."
So I don't know what you're willing to admit, but the argument is silly and just plain wrong.
You think you're open-minded don't you? Or is this all about what you "feel the need to respond to" again? Mighty convenient, that dodge.
Check the next thread. I'm having the same conversation with one Pamela Troy. Enjoy.
"The Soviets and Japanese were in a state of armed conflict at the time of M-R, and the Japanese were obviously being courted by the Germans. The Soviets thus had reason to fear the prospect of a two-front war, making my point entirely relevant. Your point that the conflict wasn't known to the rest of the world, on the other hand, actually is irrelevant. Further, I suggest you get cracking on writing to everyone who has referred to this series of "skirmishes" as the Soviet-Japanese Border Wars and inform them that they are incorrect. So no, I wasn't misinformed, just using "at war" as a common shorthand for "in a state of armed conflict." And yes, you are being pedantic. No big deal, it happens all the time."
Having gone back to my sources, I am willing to concede this point, as instead of two border skirmishes, as I (mis)concieved, there were several, and starting as early as 1938, then picking up again in May-August of 1939. Thus, your phrase "in a state of armed conflict" is entirely appropriate, and arguing about whether it deserves that status of "war" is angels-on-pinheads territory. It therefore appears that I, and not you, were misinformed. Well done.
Having said that, I think the link to M-R is still overstated. I say this because of the Secret Protocol to the Pact, whereby the Soviets took a share of Poland as well as the Baltic States, etc. If Stalin was really worried about having to fight a long and debilitating war with Japan, why on earth would he have stretched his forces in that manner?
In truth, I doubt he was, as every fight from the initial '38 clash resulted, accourding to my same sources, in a Russian defeat. Indeed, at the same time M-R was being signed, Stalin was wrapping up his own border offensive, which had ended in an impressive victory. And in September, as his tanks were rolling into Poland, Stalin signed a cease-fire with the Japanese.
Moreover, when, at the final Nazi-Soviet negotiation session, which according to Shirer (pg. 71
Thus, while it can be argued that Nomonhan was certainly in the back of Satlin's mind during the M-R negotiations, they hardly amount to the gun-in-the-back that you suggest. Again, the matter is more complicated than I conceived, and perhaps more than you feel the need to respond to.
Posted by: Andrew the Noisy at August 02, 2008 11:43 AM (cntKs)
"every fight from the initial '38 clash resulted, accourding to my same sources, in a Russian defeat," should read "in a Japanese defeat." I regret the error.
Posted by: Andrew the Noisy at August 02, 2008 11:45 AM (cntKs)
So I don't know what you're willing to admit, but the argument is silly and just plain wrong.
You think you're open-minded don't you? Or is this all about what you "feel the need to respond to" again? Mighty convenient, that dodge.
I have no idea what this is supposed to mean. Bill made a stupid comment, I pointed out that it was stupid. You said that yeah, it was kind of dumb, but that some other theoretical argument might not be as dumb. You never actually made that argument, so I certainly never felt the need to respond. It isn't a dodge, I simply can't be expected to anticipate your points.
The last part of your comment seems to argue that although sure, the Soviets and Japanese were fighting at the time of M-R, the Soviets didn't or shouldn't have considered the Japanese a serious threat. I don't think this is at all correct. The militarizing Japanese were in dire need of resources, and a faction of the General Staff wanted to aquire them by seizing large parts of Siberia. Extensive planning for such an invasion was in place by the time of M-R. The Japanese defeat in the border wars may have convinced them that they'd be better off looking elsewhere, but the existence of such plans indicates that the Soviets were right to consider Japan a legitimate threat.
Posted by: Larv at August 04, 2008 12:44 PM (6YCw9)
"I have no idea what this is supposed to mean. Bill made a stupid comment, I pointed out that it was stupid. You said that yeah, it was kind of dumb, but that some other theoretical argument might not be as dumb. You never actually made that argument, so I certainly never felt the need to respond. It isn't a dodge, I simply can't be expected to anticipate your points."
I'm afraid you're not describing our conversation on this point accurately. Someone said "The Nazis were leftists, they made a pact with the Soviets, they called themselves Socialists," etc. You said "No they weren't, they killed Communist, and the Soviets made the deal cause they were fighting the Japanese at the time."
I pointed out that Killing Leftists does not make one not a leftist. You responded that you felt no need to respond to a stupid argument with a smart one, and that anyone making the claim that the Nazis were leftists is just plain crazy. I responded to this last by pointing out where I was having this discussion, and that statements to just plain craziness is not a hallmark of an open mind or a good-faith argument (admittedly, I did this with a great deal of snark).
So, if you're ready to have a bigger discussion, I told you where it was. If not, enh.
As to the Secret Border War, yes, likely Stalin and the Red Army were keeping their eyes on the Japanese. But the fact that the Russians won every encounter and had indeed trounced the Japanese in Manchuria on the day before M-R was signed, coupled with the Secret Protocols, means that Stalin had other, Europe-centered reasons for entering into a pact with Hitler. So again, it's not the gun-to -the-head you think it was.
But we could argue around this point all month.
Posted by: Andrew the Noisy at August 05, 2008 12:45 PM (cntKs)
Now who's describing things inaccurately? The existence of the non-aggression pact was put forth as evidence of the Nazi's leftist sympathies. I pointed out that both the Nazis and Soviets had perfectly good military/strategic reasons for signing the pact, and that there was no need to posit any sort of shared ideology to account for it. Particularly as there is, to my knowledge, absolutely zero support for such an interpretation. If you have any evidence that Stalin and Hitler signed M-R because of a shared political outlook, I'd love to see it.
I pointed out that Killing Leftists does not make one not a leftist.
Maybe not, but it does seem to indicate that one doesn't feel much ideological solidarity with them. I'll concede that I was dismissive of Bill's comment, but again, it was eminently dismissable as phrased. The Nazis were not "far to the left" in any way, shape, or form. They clearly positioned themselves on the opposite end of the political spectrum from the actual German leftist parties like the Communists and Social Democrats. The Nazis, at least by the early '30s, were unquestionably aligned with the German right, even including the German Nationalist party in their coalition government. Are you really disputing this?
I don't think I've been able to pin you down yet on whether you think it's correct to describe the Nazis as leftist. Do you? I'll retract the "crazy" appellation, but I'll continue to say that labeling the Nazis as a movement of the left is utterly without merit. If you think otherwise, you really have to provide some sort of affirmative argument to support your claim. And pointing me to another thread with several hundred comments doesn't really cut it.
But the fact that the Russians won every encounter and had indeed trounced the Japanese in Manchuria on the day before M-R was signed, coupled with the Secret Protocols, means that Stalin had other, Europe-centered reasons for entering into a pact with Hitler. So again, it's not the gun-to -the-head you think it was.
If you'll read my initial comment on the subject, I think you'll see that I mentioned reasons other than the Japanese threat, particularly the desire to gain territory in Europe. I never said, or even implied, that the Japanese threat was a "gun to the head". You took it upon yourself to claim that this threat was non-existent. It wasn't, and it simply doesn't matter whether Stalin feared actual defeat by the Japanese. Tying up part of his army in the far East would have been sufficient to cause enormous headaches to military planners, especially in a country the size of Russia.
I appreciate the invite to join in on the other thread, but I don't really feel like wading through 250+ comments to get up to speed. I'm not that bored.
Posted by: Larv at August 05, 2008 02:38 PM (6YCw9)
Selective Outrage
Sunday's shootings at a Unitarian Universalist church in Knoxville, TN was a horrible tragedy caused by a man with a laundry list of psychological issues and naked hatred against anyone unlike him.
As horrible as these events were, the death toll at the church could have been far worse. Jim David Adkisson was armed with a semi-automatic 12-gauge shotgun and 76 cartridges, but only managed to fire three rounds before being overpowered by the congregation. I wrote about the string of small miracles that occurred at the church, a series of coincidences that kept an awful event from becoming even worse. As innocuous as that post was to most normal people, online progressive activists and bloggers, wasting no time in trying to twist the tragedy to their political advantage, flooded my inbox and the comments section of that post with crude language and spittle-flecked, half-formed thoughts of rage. Some claimed that by writing this post, I was "a lying fascist thug," apparently for merely pointing out that in addition to his stated hatred of gays and liberals, he targeted a church "after expressing beliefs to neighbors in the past that he had an abiding anger against Christianity, an anger that appears rooted in his childhood." It was later confirmed that Adkisson did have issues with religion dating back to his childhood, and that the specific church he targeted was one that was once attended by his ex-wife. Another went off on a rant in another direction, hissing, "So if he had targeted a mosque, that would be OK because it wasn't a church, I presume. You know, them 'sand people' and all that..." Rarely have I seen strawmen created and then slaughtered with such ferocity, especially by a political group so thoroughly untroubled by the thought of the slaughter most experts predicted would occur in Iraq if their calls for an immediate pullout in Iraq had been heeded in the past few years. Another stated "your side launched a terrorist attack yesterday. Two innocent Americans died. Why does your side hate America so much?" Indeed, the meme that the attack was domestic terrorism seems quite popular among some on the far left, and they have trotted out this tragedy as example of a specific kind of domestic terrorism, one that they've branded as "eliminationism." They spare no bile or blame in asserting that Sean Hannity, Rush Limbaugh, Ann Coulter, and others in the conservative movement indirectly contributed to Adkisson's abbreviated rampage. Give their newfound concern about domestic terrorism, and their stated disgust with those who would advocate threats of harm as a political tool via eliminationism, I find it the pinnacle of hypocrisy that they offer unswerving support and near-Messianic devotion to a political candidate who began his ascension up the political ladder with a fundraiser at the home of a well-known pair of domestic terrorists. Bill Ayers and Bernadine Dohrn belonged to a group that declared war against the United States, bombed the U.S. Capitol, the Pentagon, and other buildings, and attempted to blow up a dance of American soldiers and their dates, only to have the pipebombs prematurely detonate instead, taking only terrorist souls. The leftwing political blogosphere has no tolerance for domestic terrorists at all... ...unless they're long-time friends of their Presidential candidate.Posted by: Confederate Yankee at 11:20 AM | Comments (259) | Add Comment | Trackbacks (Suck)
Nice job trying to make yourself out to be the victim here. As usual, the hole you are in obviously isn't your fault (it never is) - it was the big bad liberals who dug it for you.
Maybe you should have done what most rational people would have done and simply admitted that this horrible attack had little to do with religion and everything to do with a hatred of everything liberal. Instead, you had to provide your own white wash and spin and ignore everything that was obvious about this attack.
If you had simply accepted and come to terms with this and maybe talk about how angry and guilty it must make you feel that someone committed such a horrible crime using the conservative banner that you yourself fly, you wouldn't be in this position of so much attention.
But go ahead, keep pulling out the victim card.
Posted by: jesus saves all at July 29, 2008 11:39 AM (xuaxV)
2) this guy was sick - nobody in any mainstream conservative vain would ever think about condoning this. No conservative would spend one second under this guys banner.
3) ummm what hole is he in, and where did he pull a "victim card"?
Posted by: Web at July 29, 2008 12:13 PM (OYCW6)
Posted by: Penfold at July 29, 2008 12:21 PM (lF2Kk)
The perp hated liberals, gays, AND Christians (not necessarily in that order) - and probably a lot more than that. To absolutely ignore one of the groups in order to brand this perp as having acted "...using the conservative banner..." is myopic in the extreme.
Allow me to point out a, to me, rather obvious problem with this myopia: the attack happened in a Christian CHURCH.
Ignore that context at your own peril.
PS: ibid - as Web and Penfold have both noted
Posted by: Mark at July 29, 2008 12:32 PM (4od5C)
However what most liberals lack is a grasp of both the facts and reality. Islam (not radical but mainstream) would see homosexuals dead and non-Muslims dead, enslaved, or converted. So basically this guy's act falls right into their way of thinking. No I'm not implying he's a Muslim, just that his actions are in line with their ideology.
No all Muslims aren't bad, there are those that are liberal but they are sadly few and far between. Jamal Miftah is one and he has my support, as do the Bektashi Sufis in Macedonia. The practice of Taqqiya makes it difficult to sort the one bent on a global Caliphate from those who practice equality and tolerance. One way is to see which are persecuted by the Sunni and Shia majorities, but with deception ingrained into the religion I even this measure might become unreliable.
Posted by: Reason at July 29, 2008 12:48 PM (z2S93)
When liberals say what they really think, they lose the argument with the public.
Posted by: toby928 at July 29, 2008 01:05 PM (PD1tk)
In what strange alternative universe is this guy operating under the banner of Rush Limbaugh?
Posted by: George Bruce at July 29, 2008 01:44 PM (v4XVE)
Calling this an attack on Christians and ignoring the facts about this Christian church is an insult to the dead and pretty cheap spin. Its what you get when you equate liberals with Nazis and paint gay marriage as a threat to anybody outside of the 2 people getting married (if they made the wrong choice, like so many straight couples find out later when they divorce). All for cheap votes and to distract people from the fact that the rich people shipping our jobs overseas and busting unions are their real enemies. If it gets a few gays bashed or liberal Christians shot, what the heck, Karl Rove's team wins and backing a winner makes you feel better even if you're ignoring the game is rigged.
Posted by: California Boy at July 29, 2008 02:17 PM (Ma38C)
All CY did was point out that that church was hit for three reasons, not two, and that many people (like you) would have us believe otherwise.
The Liberals have a leg up on conservatives in the Nazzi name calling
"If it gets a few gays bashed or liberal Christians shot, what the heck"
Ummmmmm CYs post makes it clear that this act was unconscionable, and that through a series of small miracles significantly more bloodshed was avoided - that does not seem like an "what the heck" response to me.
And nice job pulling Carl Rove in, classy.
Posted by: Web at July 29, 2008 02:35 PM (XceKO)
So, I guess all that guy down in Tennessee is guilty of is euthanasia, right? That liberal who put himself in harms way to protect his fellow church-goers was nothing but a vegetable anyway.
...Right?
When are you haters ever going to start taking responsibility for what you say?
NEWFOUND concern about domestic terrorism? Liberals haven't been complaining about the Klan for the past fifty years?
Posted by: PAMELA Troy at July 29, 2008 02:52 PM (0+zSf)
But what would the tone of this discussion be if the shooter was of arab or muslim descent? Would you still be so hesitant to call it terrorism?
It's not like we haven't read other comments here at this very blog about this liberal or that needing "two to the back of the head" or to be "taken out and shot".
Posted by: Vuoto at July 29, 2008 03:04 PM (ejQhN)
I don't think this is quite as hilarious as Liberals do. They see it as a victory for "their side".
Maybe it was.
Posted by: brando at July 29, 2008 03:05 PM (qzOby)
Do I sound like I'm laughing?
I take political violence very seriously. Which is why I've never found right wing "jokes" about killing liberals very funny.
Posted by: Pamela Troy at July 29, 2008 03:13 PM (0+zSf)
I posit that political violence is the sort used by a political party against another political party or the public in general to further their political agenda. I don't see that here.
Posted by: Penfold at July 29, 2008 03:24 PM (lF2Kk)
You're trying to narrow the definition of the term "political violence" down to the point where it's practically meaningless.
"Political violence" is violence aimed at people because of their politics, whether engineered by a political party or not. The Klan murders of civil rights activists was "political violence." The Peekskill riot was "political violence." The murder of MLK was "political violence," as was the murder of the Goldmark family, the bombing of the Murrah building, and the attack on 9/11.
Given that the man targeted that church because he hated its politics, how do his actions NOT qualify as "political violence?"
Posted by: Pamela Troy at July 29, 2008 03:32 PM (0+zSf)
Vuoto asked:
But what would the tone of this discussion be if the shooter was of arab or muslim descent? Would you still be so hesitant to call it terrorism?
I think that is a very fair question, and after the better part of a decade where the most common acts of Muslim violence we see in the media are bona fide acts of Islamic terrorism, I think for some there will be a tendency to automatically equate such attacks with terrorism as a knee-jerk response, no doubt about it. At the same time, western media has done a decent job separating out other Muslim-caused crimes such as honor killings without describing it as terrorism, so I think that the record would get straight eventually.
I honestly don't know where the line is drawn between a hate crime and a terrorist attack as there is often overlap, and I don't think you can create an over-arching rule. I think you have to take these events on a case-by-case basis.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at July 29, 2008 03:36 PM (xNV2a)
You mean as opposed to such coherent and logical "arguments" as:
"Liberalism is, in essence, the HIV virus, and it weakens the defense cells of a nation." -- Michael Savage 7/11/2006
"We need to execute people like John Walker [Lindh] in order to physically intimidate liberals, by making them realize that they can be killed, too. Otherwise, they will turn out to be outright traitors." — Ann Coulter, speaking to the Conservative Political Action Conference, January 2002
"We do detest you, we despise you and we hold you in complete and utter contempt…The day will come, the day will come when unpleasant things are going to happen to a bunch of stupid liberals, it’s going to be amusing to watch, very amusing to watch." -- Lee Rodgers, on liberals, KSFO radio, 6/30/06
"If guns are outlawed, how can we shoot the liberals?" -- State Sen. Mike Gunn (R-MS), quoted in the Atlanta Journal -Constitution, 12/31/96
How is the association I've pointed out between dehumanizing language and dehumanizing actions "logically flawed?"
Posted by: Pamela Troy at July 29, 2008 03:42 PM (0+zSf)
The shooter targeted the church, as i mentioned earlier, for its liberal beliefs, Christianity and acceptance of gays. Adkisson intentionally chose a church that was Christian and gay - it is more plausible that Adkisson was hoping to target Christians and gays.
Posted by: Penfold at July 29, 2008 03:53 PM (lF2Kk)
Demonizing in the current political climate is an equal measure of evil, on both sides. Both have done it, and will continue to, much to the detriment to the overall body politic. The basic issue stands that, as Bob has stated before, that the majority of liberals these days write off violence on 'their side of the fence' as a 'neccessary evil'.. in and that the current 'groupthink' that the Democrats/Liberals/Socialists have is NOT necessarily in for the 'good of the nation' but for the 'good of the party' and endevour to promote anything that will allow them to retain power.
To bring in historical precedence... both the NAZIs (National Socialists) and Stalin ('Man of Steel') AKA the man of tyhe Communist Party put party ahead of nation, and ahead of their own people.
My question is, why say/do/perpetrate an issue that causes damage to the Republic as a whole? Is it the need to rebel against 'the man' so great and ingrained that you are willing to sacrifice what so many died to build? Its a sick thing and almost pathalogical for people to want to see America lessened in any way, especially since so many have died to make us what we are today... and before you can even say it, no matter who or what party is in power, you should remember that America should always come first...
Posted by: Big Country at July 29, 2008 04:02 PM (9dP7o)
The man targeted the church because he perceived it as a hotbed of "liberalism." "Liberalism" is a political viewpoint.
Why are you so intent about redefining what he did in this manner? The fact remains that the right has, for the past couple of decades, gotten increasingly violent and dehumanizing when talking about liberals. Do you really imagine that dehumanizing and violent rhetoric is not going to lead to dehumanizing and violent actions?
Posted by: Pamela Troy at July 29, 2008 04:14 PM (0+zSf)
Posted by: Pamela Troy at July 29, 2008 04:16 PM (0+zSf)
Hillary Clinton says "This administration is waging war on poor children,"
Ramsey Clark stops says "Regime change! George Bush has to go and we have the power to do it. The officials of the [Bush] government shall be removed from office for crimes and misdemeanor; their crime against peace, and for use of torture in Iraq."
Patty Murray (Sen, D, WA) says "He's (Osama bin Laden) been out in these countries for decades, building schools, building roads, building infrastructure, building day-care facilities, building health-care facilities, and these people are extremely grateful. We haven't done that."
Jessica Lange says "I despise him [President George W. Bush]. I despise his administration and everything they stand for. It is an embarrassing time to be an American. It really is. It’s humiliating."
Julian Bond says "[Republicans] idea of equal rights is the American flag and Confederate swastika flying side by side."
Paul Begala says "The difference between Martin Sheen and George W. Bush is Martin Sheen is actually convincing when he acts like he's president."
Hillary Clinton says "the Bush administration is out to undo the accomplishments of seven Presidents - Clinton, Carter, Johnson, Kennedy, Truman and both Roosevelts".
Bill Moyers says that Republicans are planning "the deliberate, intentional destruction of the United States of America."
Posted by: Big Country at July 29, 2008 04:21 PM (9dP7o)
This guy hates the Christian church, says the bible is all wrong and contradictory, so he can't be the 'conservative Christian guy attacking the liberal gay loving Christian church" the left says he is... he hates christianity period!
The way actual conservative Christians react to things like the unitarian universalist church is to pray for them, not SHOOT them.
Posted by: Daveradio at July 29, 2008 04:22 PM (WxEX2)
http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=cp_fc6h5g7n673&show_article=1
I breathless await your denouncement of Howard Zinn and Arianna Huffington, Pamela.
Posted by: Techie at July 29, 2008 04:27 PM (UyfPZ)
Bush voters, the lot of them.
Posted by: Techie at July 29, 2008 04:30 PM (UyfPZ)
there is SO MUCH from the left, and almost NOTHING from the right. Abortion doctors shot? one in the past 15 years. And we always decry those people who do it.
Posted by: Daveradio at July 29, 2008 04:31 PM (WxEX2)
Of course, if the shooter were Muslim the right would not hesitate to call it terrorism, and the left would insist it was just a lone nut case and that religion and politics had nothing to do with it. Or that it was justified by Amerikkka's Islamophobia.
Posted by: Pervy Grin at July 29, 2008 04:33 PM (fqvpi)
Of course UU churches welcome everyone, even presumably Trinitarian Christians who are open to dialog, but one does not have to call himself a Christian to be a member of the church, and I personally knew neopagans who participated in services of the particular UU church that was targeted.
We might know more when and if they release the contents of his letter, but I doubt the Christian element had anything to do with his selection of a target.
It's disingenuous to claim that his hatred of liberals was somehow not to blame for his actions. It's disingenuous in the same manner that trying to disconnect Islam from Islamic terrorism is.
On the other hand, don't miss the fact that this shooter is considered a criminal by the vast majority of our society, from the most liberal to the most conservative. In much the same way keep in mind how Timothy McVeigh was viewed and how he was put to death by our society.
On the other hand, OBL has approval ratings that orbit the 50% mark in many areas of the Umma.
Posted by: Chris at July 29, 2008 04:33 PM (ZybPf)
Posted by: Pervy Grin at July 29, 2008 04:36 PM (fqvpi)
Posted by: Pervy Grin at July 29, 2008 04:37 PM (fqvpi)
You think blacks in the 1870s-1930s were voting for the Party of the Copperheads, or the Party of Lincoln?
Posted by: Techie at July 29, 2008 04:39 PM (UyfPZ)
I think that my point was made to Pam now... Like I said, and which she failed to adress, is that under NO CICUMSTANCES should we as 'The American People' as a whole forget that "United we stand, divided, we fall" and that the current crop of 60s leftovers and their wannabes in college now have never understood or appreciated just how f'n lucky they are to be in a country that allows them to have the liencency and forthrightness to put up with their BS.
Someone mentioned John Walker Lindh... in my grandfathers time (1944) there would have been no trial, no nothin... his a$$ would have just been shot out of hand for the traitor that he is. And if by some miricle he made it back to stand trial, he would have been given a fair trial, found guilty of treason in time of war, and then hung by the neck until dead, and buried in an unmarked grave so REAL patriots wouldn't desecrate it.
Posted by: Big Country at July 29, 2008 04:41 PM (9dP7o)
I'm talking here about people from their bully pulpits accusing entire groups of ordinary Americans of treason and strongly implying violence. I'm talking here about someone like Ann Coulter saying that liberals like me and my family are only kept from treason out of fear of physical harm. I'm talking about someone like Michael Savage comparing us to vermin and disease. I'm talking about a nationally broadcast commentator not so obliquely expressing the hope that Al Qaida bomb the city where I live.
And I'm sorry, I'm not going to enter into this widespread fiction that such rhetoric is as common among well-known leftist pundits as it is among well-known right wing pundits. It isn't. Like actual political violence, violent rhetoric in this country tends to come from the right -- not the left.
Posted by: Pamela Troy at July 29, 2008 04:41 PM (0+zSf)
Posted by: tnv at July 29, 2008 04:45 PM (J5/HS)
The Peekskill riot, the Goldmark murders, the lynching epidemic, the Klan, the bombings of abortion clinics, the Oklahoma City bombing...
Would you like me to go into more detail?
Posted by: Pamela Troy at July 29, 2008 04:46 PM (0+zSf)
Michael Moore famously remarked that the terrorists were stupid to hit NYC, when they could have killed more Republicans by choosing a different target.
Spare me the "I'm so oppressed" malarky.
Newsflash, there isn't a lot of "political violence" in this nation to begin with, Thank the Lord.
Posted by: Techie at July 29, 2008 04:47 PM (UyfPZ)
Just because the Klan was not on par with the Republicans or Democrats does not lessen their political motives. In fact, as a marginalized group, they are more likely to engage in violent behavior, not less, because they feel their message is not being heard.
I am not the one "re-defining" here, as I have continuously acknowledged that one of the reasons Adkisson selected the Church was because of its liberal agenda. You are the one seeking to redefine and limit the killing as "political" when it, based on all accounts, is more accurately described as religious and sexual orientation based. From what I have read, i don't think that the parishioner's political beliefs were the major factor in the shooting. I think it was religion and his hatred of gays. It seems you wish to completely ignore that Christians were victims. Why is that?
And your statement that the "Right" has become increasingly violent and dehumanizing is nothing should have been balanced out with the the rising vitriol from the Left and their willingness to engage in violent behavior and wanton destruction as a means of conveying their views. It's not the Right planning the "Recreate '68" at the DNC convention this summer. It was not the "Right" that attempted, and failed, to shut down the RNC and NYC in 2004. It is not the Right that store urine and feces to throw at police. If these are not signs of dehumanization, then nothing is.
Posted by: Penfold at July 29, 2008 04:51 PM (lF2Kk)
What I mean is that he says the shooter was basically a nutjob, a lone wacko, and that it's intellectually dishonest to use this as some indictment of 'the evil that lurks under the surface of the American right', or whatever. Fair enough.
But imagine the scenario being a little different: imagine the guy was a Muslim, also a lone wacko with deep psychological problems, with no connections to terrorist groups, no history of religious radicalism, etc etc. Just a lone crazy guy who happened to be Muslim.
I bet Confederate Yankee, suddenly, would most definitely want to talk about the 'environment' and the 'culture' that allowed hateful ideas to flourish - spew enough hate, and eventually someone is going to be unbalanced enough to act on it. It will be taken as proof that terrorism - and the shooting will be called terrorism if a Muslim does it - is an omnipresent threat, and action must be taken against 'those people'.
Basically, if your side winds up looking bad, it's a lone wacko. If someone else's side winds up looking bad, suddenly you'll find yourself believing, truly, that the guy really isn't so different from from the non-violent blowhards that you're just sure inspired this killing.
Posted by: Selective non-outrage at July 29, 2008 04:52 PM (Zcf7V)
I was born and raised in GA. We had 130 years of uninterrupted Democrat governors. (1872 - 2002)
The foot soldiers of the "Solid South" weren't pulling the levers for Alf Landon or Wendell Willikie.
Posted by: Techie at July 29, 2008 04:53 PM (UyfPZ)
The words in the second line of my third paragraph "is nothing" were left in accidentally, the statement makes little sense as written and i want to acknowledge my error to avoid confusion.
Posted by: Penfold at July 29, 2008 04:53 PM (lF2Kk)
What I mean is that he says the shooter was basically a nutjob, a lone wacko, and that it's intellectually dishonest to use this as some indictment of 'the evil that lurks under the surface of the American right', or whatever. Fair enough.
But imagine the scenario being a little different: imagine the guy was a Muslim, also a lone wacko with deep psychological problems, with no connections to terrorist groups, no history of religious radicalism, etc etc. Just a lone crazy guy who happened to be Muslim.
I bet Confederate Yankee, suddenly, would most definitely want to talk about the 'environment' and the 'culture' that allowed hateful ideas to flourish - spew enough hate, and eventually someone is going to be unbalanced enough to act on it. It will be taken as proof that terrorism - and the shooting will be called terrorism if a Muslim does it - is an omnipresent threat, and action must be taken against 'those people'.
Basically, if your side winds up looking bad, it's a lone wacko. If someone else's side winds up looking bad, suddenly you'll find yourself believing, truly, that the guy really isn't so different from from the non-violent blowhards that you're just sure inspired this killing.
Posted by: Selective at July 29, 2008 04:54 PM (Zcf7V)
Posted by: Selective at July 29, 2008 04:55 PM (Zcf7V)
A deranged, evil man chose his hatreds, one from Column A, two from Column B, packed and delivered them via shotgun to innocents souls.
That he's got both "sides" arguing over which type of ideological rhetoric can be blamed for cold-blooded murder must be the cause for much hilarity in Hell today.
Posted by: Cindi at July 29, 2008 04:56 PM (/8Bs3)
For such staunch advocates of Darwinian evolution, leftists fail to see the irony of their own failure to adapt to Darwinian selection.
Posted by: tom at July 29, 2008 04:56 PM (Hof1q)
And BTW: The thing I look forward to most is when and if (God Forbid) that the Democrats take over the White House, who are you going to blame then for your troubles? When this country goes marching off the deep end, y'all are going to still be screaming "It's all Bush's fault" like the mantra it has become.
Wake up. It's 2008, realize that the 60s was a drug induced stupidity-fest of false rebellion and out and out cowardice, realize you need to contribute to the world in a more tangible fashion (thank a troop for their service and volunteer at a nursing home) and above all, get over youself... liberalism is all about selfishness...this is why you act the way you do when confronted with reality, why its all about "me me me" 24-7-365... a little less about you you you and more about "we're all in this together, whether you or I like it or not."
Posted by: Big Country at July 29, 2008 04:57 PM (9dP7o)
Posted by: Howe at July 29, 2008 04:57 PM (RYtv7)
I can counter with the LA Riots of 1992 which killed 53 people, but now we're just doing tit-for-tat.
Point is, crazy sometimes is just crazy.
Posted by: Techie at July 29, 2008 05:00 PM (UyfPZ)
The guy was bitter and angry over his life, probably mentally imbalanced and latched onto something. That thing was Conservatism. It reminds me of the " made me do it" types. Heavy Metal, Rock and Roll, Rap music, Dungeons & Dragons, Harry Potter, Race, Parents, you name it and someone has blamed their crimes/shortcomings on it. However the liberal media is of course going to play up the "conservative" angle.
True irony would be that it comes out that this guy was really a liberal and all the conservative writings and such were to discredit conservatives and conservative candidates with a murderous rampage in hopes to get the Obamasiah anointed..er, elected. However he didn't die like he was supposed to so he can then confess the truth. If that were to happen you'd have liberals sorely wishing someone in the church had exercised their 2nd Amendment rights and silenced the guy.
As for killing liberals...I"m completely against such a thing. If that happened the Conservatives would then be stuck paying for all these entitlement programs they've saddled us with by ourselves.
Posted by: Reason at July 29, 2008 05:02 PM (z2S93)
Hannity issued an challenge today on his show, and I'd like to repeat it here (forgive me if someone else already has, I just skimmed the comments thus far): Show me any statement in Mr. Hannity's books that could reasonably be shown to condone or advocate things like this church shooting. I'll need specific references, including what chapter of what book it appears in, page number and edition of the book you found it in.
I'll even buy a copy of any lefty book--price not to exceed $25--to anyone who can show me such a reference. I am the one that will determine if it's been successfully accomplished, however.
Posted by: C-C-G at July 29, 2008 05:10 PM (vCJA9)
"If they bring a knife to the fight, we bring a gun," Obama said at a fundraiser in Philadelphia Friday, according to pool reports.
http://briefingroom.thehill.com/2008/06/14/obama-no-surrender-if-they-bring-a-knife-to-the-fight-we-bring-a-gun/
This one from the Messiah himself.
Your comments, please...
Posted by: Vercingetorix at July 29, 2008 05:10 PM (V/FgT)
Posted by: kat-missouri at July 29, 2008 05:13 PM (YLs4U)
They weren't Christian. Unitarian Universalism is not expressly Christian, though, as I pointed out in a previous post, they have their roots in Christian tradition -
[time out]
Let's give a little lesson on this. In an overly simplified nutshell, Universalists were Christians who came to believe that the entire human race was saved by Christ. Unitarians were
Christians who said "you know what? The Trinity doesn't make sense. I believe in god as a unique person, not three. That means God the Son doesn't exist as such, and Jesus was somehow less than God, though perhaps more than a man, who knows?"
Both traditions merged in Unitarian Universalism due to the fact that the theology led to the idea that if God is One, and God also saved the entire human race, then maybe those other religions have some share in the truth of God too. "Let's get together with Buddhists, Hindus, Jains, Muslims, Wiccans, etc, and talk."
[time in]
- it's impossible to consider UU as a Christian sect.
The shooter's wife attended the church, so he would (should?) have been well aware of the distinction.
I wouldn't be surprised if the shooter were a Christian Identity adherent. Those people often scoff at mainline Christians, who they think have been compromised by the Kenites (Satan's offspring via Eve and Cain), and their attitude might well be misinterpreted as antichristian by those uninitiated.
I think there is little doubt that the liberal politics of the UU congregation was the primary element that got them targeted.
Posted by: Chris at July 29, 2008 05:15 PM (ZybPf)
And I'm sorry, I'm not going to enter into this widespread fiction that such rhetoric is as common among well-known leftist pundits as it is among well-known right wing pundits. It isn't. Like actual political violence, violent rhetoric in this country tends to come from the right -- not the left.
Fiction? Time for a history lesson.
As a matter of unquestioaned fact, the majority of political assassinations in America have come from the left.
John Wilkes Booth was a cross between Robert Byrd and Alec Baldwin, Charles J. Guiteau was a John Edwards-type lawyer who was told by the great beyond (perhaps channelling?) to murder President Garfield, Leon F. Czolgosz, who shot William McKinley was a leftwing anarchist. Guiseppe Zangara who tried to kill FDR was a whacked-out anti-capitalist, and we all know Lee Harvey Oswald was a communist sympathizer.
Wannabe white Black Panther Sam Byck got himself killed trying to take out Nixon, and a year later, loonie lefty cultist Lynette "Squeaky" Fromme tried to take out President Ford, who was the target of lefty counterculture loser Sarah Jane Moore just 17 days later.
Andrew Mickel, an Indymedia contributor, carried out the latest purely poltical assassination I'm aware of on American soil. Not surprisingly, this guy was a graduate of far left Evergreen State College. He has been convicted of murder, and has been sentenced to death.
The evidence is pretty convincing that if there is a political assassination attempt in America, that either the left or the mentally ill are behind it.
Internationally? Stalin, Lenin, Pol Pot, Castro, Che...
Shall I go on? Whether you prefer to discuss purely domestic political violence, or look at the international scene, the far left has a bloody, wide and deep track record of political killings.
Call it "fiction" if you want Pamela Troy. We know where the bodies are buried.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at July 29, 2008 05:16 PM (HcgFD)
Posted by: Tood at July 29, 2008 05:19 PM (Hof1q)
Posted by: Big Country at July 29, 2008 05:19 PM (9dP7o)
Posted by: David at July 29, 2008 05:21 PM (WR9e4)
not sure if someone pointed this out or not, but...
the Unitarian church is not a Christian Church - it's just a church, but holds no doctrinal beliefs that in any way resembles Christian beliefs, even the more liberal ones.
A friend of mine got married once in a Unitarian church, where the pastor was an avowed Atheist.
So lets be careful with our labels, kids...
Posted by: rainboy at July 29, 2008 05:23 PM (M1uSy)
Why would we need to do that? No need to help, the libs are doing juuuuuuuuuuust peachy-fine on their own!
Posted by: Big Country at July 29, 2008 05:25 PM (9dP7o)
I don't believe that the perpetrator in this instance was out to intimidate people from attending this church or others like it. Nor do I believe that any of the pundits criticized and defended above are out to intimidate their political rivals and keep them from advocating as they will. It seems to me that this guy was deranged, and that he chose to fix his focus on a political combination that had meaning in his warped mind.
There's no telling what a deranged mind will decide to fixate on. In this case, we can blame the pundits on the Right for saying some inflammatory things in their pursuit of ratings. But this individual might just as easily have decided to listen to the words of a Randy Rhodes, or a Bill Ayers, or a Jeremiah Wright. It wouldn't make the person or the actions any better or worse; it would only have changed the location of the atrocity.
Any message can be fixated on by a madman and used to motivate him to horrible acts. There's no way to rid ourselves of such potential sources of 'inspiration' short of banning all inflammatory speech from anyone on any side of the political spectrum, which isn't a course I think any of us are interested in.
Posted by: Squid at July 29, 2008 05:30 PM (XyDTQ)
Posted by: Howe at July 29, 2008 05:30 PM (RYtv7)
I respect people's freedom, but the criminally insane need to be institutionalized. It's been a blind spot for the left and right for different--and generally good--reasons. These crimes are, thankfully, a rare occurence, and I grieve for the victims.
Posted by: Cyd at July 29, 2008 05:37 PM (IRznV)
Posted by: Michael Chaney at July 29, 2008 05:47 PM (73zRd)
People can be opposed to, say, gay marriage, and still in no way support freaking murdering gay people (it's pathetic that I even have to point that out!). This is why the Left will never be a dominant force in American politics-- they traffic all too often in absurd caricatures, ad hominem attacks, and ridiculous strawmen. They don't address arguments. Instead they fantasize absurd accusations, and then demand that their opponents disprove them.
Pathetic, pathetic, pathetic.
Posted by: Mike at July 29, 2008 05:50 PM (U7UoP)
And if there's no hate on the left, why does HuffPo feel the need to close its comments section whenever a prominent conservative suffers something unfortunate?
Posted by: Clay Waters at July 29, 2008 06:16 PM (rW1e9)
1. The guy expressed hatred for liberals and gays.
2. The guy has in the past expressed animosity towards Christians.
[Note carefully that 1 and 2 aren't terribly logically consistent since most liberals are pro-gay, and most Christians will tell you homosexuality is wrong.]
3. The guy murdered 2 people in a church which does not profess Christian theology. (No offense or support implied; this is a simple statement of fact.)
I tend to lend more credence to #1 than #2 since the info in #1 is more recent history.
That said, it sounds to guy is right-leaning. Far more importantly, however, is that it appears the guy is MENTALLY ILL. Not right, not left.
In the '90s John Salvi murdered people at an abortion center under circumstances which suggested he was ill, rather than a right-wing foot soldier. He was summarily jailed for life, and he took his own life in jail. Justice was NOT done. It has always seemed to me that the cry for blood (from the left) was so great that this guy was treated as a criminal rather than a sick person. I understand that victims' loved ones want justice, but in cases of mental illness, there is not guilt to be judged. Think Mark Chapman.
With malice towards none, charity to all, and sympathies to the victims and their loved ones.
Posted by: WAT at July 29, 2008 06:17 PM (CmH2t)
So which political party did the Klan support? The Democrats. Did the Democrats disavow the Klan when the Klan was operating in their interest? Nope. Well some did. However, being anti-Klan was generally a Republican thing. And guess what. Being anti-slavery was generally a Republican thing - you might want to read up some on the history of our first Republican President.
Which political party in America was the first to support equal rights for blacks? Republicans.
Now I have to admit that there is significant Republican intolerance for gays. I'm against it. As is CY. And like the racism of the Democrat party it is slowly melting away under the force of social pressure.
Of course there is also the vile Fred Phelps - A Democrat.
Posted by: M. Simon at July 29, 2008 07:41 PM (OANt1)
Posted by: RebeccaH at July 29, 2008 08:11 PM (JAQT9)
Posted by: Fat Man at July 29, 2008 08:16 PM (kuCYZ)
But these days Duke is a disciple of Mother Cindy Sheehan. Funny how Duke disappeared from the MSM's radar as soon as he started parroting Democrat Party talking points.
This stroll down Memory Lane was brought to you as a public service announcement.
Posted by: Mwalimu Daudi at July 29, 2008 08:33 PM (xJxUK)
I believe the reanimation of corpses for political purposes is a Chicago specialty. They have a Democratic machine designed especially for the purpose.
Posted by: M. Simon at July 29, 2008 09:02 PM (OANt1)
"Michael Moore famously remarked that the terrorists were stupid to hit NYC, when they could have killed more Republicans by choosing a different target."
Never heard that one. Got a cite for that quote? Where did he say it? When?
Posted by: Pamela Troy at July 29, 2008 09:40 PM (0+zSf)
I've rarely seen anyone call out their political opponents and be consequently paddled as badly as you have been.
I was going to join in and discuss some choice quotes from Al Franken, Al Gore, Bill Clinton, and James Carville. And I was going to point out that Tim McVeigh was certainly far more leftist than not. Nevermind the Unabomber.
But this would just be overkill. You've been intellectually thumped.
Some aspirin might help.
-- TIA
Posted by: The Ignorant American at July 29, 2008 09:41 PM (q7DL4)
LOL! If it was based on their "liberal agenda" it was based on their politics.
But again, I really have to wonder why you seem to have such a big emotional stake in avoiding the term "political murder."
Techie: It's not the Right planning the "Recreate '68" at the DNC convention this summer.
I've yet to meet a single person on the left, liberal or otherwise, who has any desire to see a replay of 1968 at the Democratic Convention. If there are leftists who are planning this, it's a VERY small minority.
Posted by: Pamela Troy at July 29, 2008 09:44 PM (0+zSf)
It's those kind of wackos and nutjobs that make the rhetoric used by people like Coulter, Savage, and Rodgers so very, very irresponsible.
Posted by: Pamela Troy at July 29, 2008 09:50 PM (0+zSf)
Well, aside from its fairly consistent opposition to racial and sexual equality, religious freedom and unions, what would you accept as a "demonstration" of the Klan as a right-wing organization?
Techie: I was born and raised in GA. We had 130 years of uninterrupted Democrat governors. (1872 - 2002) The foot soldiers of the "Solid South" weren't pulling the levers for Alf Landon or Wendell Willikie.
That's nice. I was born and raised in Louisiana.
Are you, in all seriousness, claiming that the Dixiecrats were liberals?
Posted by: Pamela Troy at July 29, 2008 10:02 PM (0+zSf)
Posted by: cbpooh at July 29, 2008 10:05 PM (XrCnJ)
Yes, Moore would qualify as a pundit. Yes, Moyers certainly counts. And I've not heard either of them make statements with the kind of borderline violence in the quotes I offered from Coulter and Savage.
I know too many liberals to accept your claim that we're all a bunch of selfish cowards. Liberals put their lives on the line in the 1960s working for black civil rights in the south. Some of them, like Michael Schwerner and Viola Liuzzo, payed the ultimate price. I've known liberals who spent their lives working with the physically and mentally disabled, the poor, the sick. I've known liberals who fought in the Second World War, the Korean War, the Vietnam War.
What makes you think you're entitled to insult thousands of people you've never even met merely because you dislike their politics?
Posted by: Pamela Troy at July 29, 2008 10:08 PM (0+zSf)
Did all the examples I cited date back to 1949 and have a body count of zero?
Here's one more, by the way. The 1979 Greensboro Massacre.
Posted by: Pamela Troy at July 29, 2008 10:10 PM (0+zSf)
You need to read more recent history.
Ever heard of something called "The Southern Strategy?"
Posted by: Pamela Troy at July 29, 2008 10:12 PM (0+zSf)
I suppose "thumping" is in the eye of the beholder.
It does amaze me to see the sheer level of historical revisionism going on here. The Dixiecrats were LIBERALS? The Klan wasn't right wing? John Wilkes booth was a liberal?
Are you guys counting on your audience being very very young, or just very very ignorant?
Posted by: Pamela Troy at July 29, 2008 10:23 PM (0+zSf)
LOL
"Shoot him [Charlton Heston] with a .44 Bulldog." - Spike "there was not one black soldier in both of those films" Lee
"Hitler was a very great man" – Louis Farrakhan
"Rather I should die a thousand times, and see Old Glory trampled in the dirt never to rise again, than to see this beloved land of ours become degraded by race mongrels, a throwback to the blackest specimen from the wilds."
- Robert Carlyle Byrd (D) incumbent US Senator and Exalted Cyclops in the "right wing" KKK
"I want to cut his [Obama’s] nuts off." Jesse Jackson
Jesse Jackson referred to Jews as "Hymies" and to New York City as "Hymietown" in January 1984 during a conversation with Washington Post reporter Milton Coleman. Jackson at first denied the remarks, then accused Jews of conspiring to defeat him.
That’s just off the top of my head. There are plenty more.
Posted by: words twice at July 29, 2008 10:40 PM (V7VkY)
There's the lynching epidemic that extended from the Reconstruction era well into the twentieth century. The death toll for that is pretty horrifying, as was the method of killing, which typically involved torture. And these lynch mobs operated with such freedom they frequently posed for pictures beneath some bleeding, castrated cinder that had once been a human being.
And of course, there's the Peekskill riot, another product of policemen not only looking the other way, but taking part -- terribly disappointing, I know, given that none of those people leaving a folk music concert were actually killed, but the mob did manage to bloody up a bunch of leftists (including their wives and children) by throwing rocks through the car windows. Imagine the salutory lesson those little nippers got, watching their dads get beaten up by mobs while the police looked the other way! And sometimes even took part!
I'm sure I don't need to got into too much detail about the mobs in the south that mistreated civil rights demonstrators. Should the firebombing of black churches be considered an extension of the lynching epidemic? Or should they be categorized along with the current bombings of clinics, the assassinations of physicians and clinic workers?
Then there's the 1979 Greensboro Massacre. "Only" five died there, but they were shot while television cameras rolled -- the footage of a desperate woman trying to comfort her dying Communist husband is sure to warm the cockles of Ann Coulter's heart -- and those of her fans. Who knows, maybe Ann has it on tape. Probably added a laugh track.
And let's not forget the Goldmarks. Ever hear of them? Charles Goldmark was exactly the kind of attorney you guys just love to hate -- civil rights, not corporate, and the child of a woman who'd been labeled a commie back in the day. Seems a local right-wing group called The Duck Club who told David Lewis Rice all about what a nasty ol' commie Goldmark was. So on Christmas Eve Rice forced his way into the Goldmark's house, tied up the family, Charles, his wife, and their sons, chloroformed them, and killed them, stabbing them in the heads with a knife.
And, of course, there's the rise of Militias in the '90s, the bombing of the Murrah Building...
Nope, when it comes to political violence in this country, the left must take a back seat to the right. For sheer brutality and body-count, we just can't compete.
Posted by: Pamela Troy at July 29, 2008 10:48 PM (0+zSf)
I guess the same should also be said regarding Hollywood filmmakers such as Martin Scorsese. And the Bush assassination "jokes" of Randi Rhodes.
Posted by: malclave at July 29, 2008 10:51 PM (W1Ndc)
What makes you think you're entitled to insult thousands of people you've never even met merely because you dislike their politics?
A good point, in a sense. But by the same token, what entitles people to mock the populations of entire states because they vote "red?" There are double standards on both sides of the liberal/conservative divide, but when you insist that your double standard is better than the other sides' you just tend to loose credibility.
Posted by: Tcobb at July 29, 2008 11:20 PM (XOTaK)
Posted by: Pamela Troy at July 29, 2008 11:20 PM (0+zSf)
"George W. Bush is evil. He is a terrorist. He is evil. He is arrogant. And he is out of control." -- Julianne Malveaux
"Until your daddy learns that it's not 'fun' to kill, keep your doggies and kitties away from him. He's so hooked on killing defenseless animals that they could be next!" -- From a PETA booklet called "Your Daddy Kills Animals," which was designed to be handed out to children
"This President is never gonna do the right thing. I think somewhere deep down inside him he takes a lot of joy about losing people, if he thinks they vote Democrat or if he thinks they're poor, or if he thinks they're in a blue state, whatever his reasons are not to rescue those people." -- Air America's Randi Rhodes speculates that Bush wanted Democrats to die in New Orleans after hurricane Katrina
"George Bush doesn't care about black people...They're giving the Army permission to go down and shoot us." -- Kayne West on the rescue efforts in New Orleans after hurricane Katrina
"For those of you who do, as a matter of principle, oppose war in any form, the idea of supporting a conscientious objector who's already been inducted [and] in his combat service in Iraq might have a certain appeal. But let me ask you this: Would you render the same support to someone who hadn't conscientiously objected, but rather instead rolled a grenade under their line officer in order to neutralize the combat capacity of their unit?" -- University Professor Ward Churchill on supporting soldiers who frag their officers
"A spoiled child (Bush) is telling us our Social Security isn't safe anymore, so he is going to fix it for us. Well, here's your answer, you ungrateful whelp: [audio sound of 4 gunshots being fired.] Just try it, you little b*stard. [audio of gun being cocked]." -- A "humor bit" from the Randi Rhodes show
"Do our government's poorly paid contract killers deserve our "support" for blindly following orders?" -- Ted Rall shows his "support" for the troops
"Real freedom will come when [U.S.] soldiers in Iraq turn their guns on their superiors." -- Warren County Community College adjunct English professor, John Daly
There's more, Pam. Soooo so much more... It's the amazing power of google.
Posted by: Vercingetorix at July 29, 2008 11:54 PM (QaVQ6)
Oh, I have no doubt you can find lots and lots of intemperate comments about Bush and his administration from various leftists and other radicals. But so far I haven't seen you quote calls for violence against conservatives from prominent liberals as there have been calls for violence against liberals from prominent conservatives.
You DO understand the difference between vehemently criticizing an administration and advocating violence against ones political opponent as Ann Coulter has done, right?
Posted by: Pamela Troy at July 30, 2008 12:25 AM (0+zSf)
I hold no double standard. I would object to calls for violence against conservatives from prominent leftists as I object to calls for violence against liberals from prominent conservatives. The fact is, however, I've seen no liberals with the exposure and influence of Ann Coulter who have been making comments similar to Ann Coulter's ugly comments about liberals. I've certainly yet to hear a widely televised liberal strongly suggest that Al Qaida bomb a US city, as Bill O'Reilly did.
Pointing out a double standard does not qualify as a double standard. The fact is that political violence in this country tends to come from the right side of the aisle, probably because law enforcement is more likely to look carefully away when conservatives commit political crimes than when leftists do. If you doubt this, I suggest you bone up on the history of lynching.
Posted by: Pamela Troy at July 30, 2008 12:34 AM (0+zSf)
Martin Scorsese directed Taxi Driver, a film which helped inspire John Hinckley, Jr. to shoot President Reagan in 1981.
Now, obviously, Hinckley qualifies as a "wacko" and "nutjob"... just the type of person to whome you referred.
Posted by: malclave at July 30, 2008 12:35 AM (W1Ndc)
Oh come now -- you're telling me you don't see the difference between someone creating a work of fiction about political violence and a political commentator like Ann Coulter advocating it?
Posted by: Pamela Troy at July 30, 2008 12:39 AM (0+zSf)
First of all, I myself don't plan on copying this guy. I've got a life to live, and I don't intend to end it in police gunfire (or my own), or to spend the rest of my life behind bars. So no, I'm not a "future shooter."
Furthermore, it's possible that the people shot didn't deserve it. They were probably just typical lame but relatively harmless liberals.
This does not apply to you on the far Left, however. You are swine, and although I don't actually intend to kill you personally, I would not shed a tear if someone else did. I still remember that little girl you attacked at that 2004 John Edwards rally in West Virginia. I still remember Waco, and your gloating about the deaths of the babies there. I still remember the worm who forced an old Mexican woman off the road, with her child inside her car, because of her Bush bumper sticker. I still remember your ACORN cowards pushing an old woman down a flight of stairs. I hate you, and to quote one of your own, YOU ARE NOT HUMAN TO ME.
Let's lay this out nice and ugly. Somewhere out there is someone who hates you just as much as I do, except that he has terminal cancer. He can kill you, and there's nothing you can do about it. If you try to enact gun control, we will wipe the electoral floor with you, as we always do when gun control is the issue. Read the polls sometime. About twice as many love the NRA as hate it, and that's according to the left-leaning Pew poll. 75% (!) think guns are an individual right. So if you even touch this issue, down you go.
So basically what you're left with is hoping that we don't get cancer and turn you into hamburger. HA HA HA HA HA.
Posted by: Ken at July 30, 2008 12:41 AM (bFOw4)
Posted by: Pamela Troy at July 30, 2008 12:45 AM (0+zSf)
However, I'm trying to use your definition of irresponsibility above... which seems to be based on how mentally unstable people interpret a message. I could just as easily have referenced Beatles music (Helter Skelter).
As far as Ann Coulter goes, I don't pay much attention to her unless she gets mentioned in one of the blogs I read. When I do see her mentioned, it's generally criticism for some stupid remark (or denouncing a particularly over-the-line comment). I don't read many left-leaning blogs... do they tend to criticize Rhodes the same way?
So, yes, there are conservative voices out there making comments which promote violence. And, those voices are criticized by even more conservative voices.
Posted by: malclave at July 30, 2008 12:51 AM (W1Ndc)
Whether or not you, personally, listen to Ann Coulter regularly is beside the point. The fact is that she has repeatedly made statements that strongly imply violence against liberals is desirable, and yet she keeps getting invited to Conservative venues, nationally televised talkshows, etc.
Posted by: Pamela Troy at July 30, 2008 12:58 AM (0+zSf)
You threw out 3-4 quotes offhand, the very worst one of which was clearly a joke, and I showed you a half-dozen which clearly weren't jokes.
I showed you a professor (by no means alone) who condoned 'fragging' officers. Another one wished for 'a million Mogadishus.' Neither were conservatives, both which preached violence. And still, you won't listen.
I pointed several quotes against Republicans and especially against G Dub, and you respond with the 'oh, that's intemperate' garbage. Hell, they've made movies about killing the President (not right-wing movies) such as Shooter and a British documentary. Screw the offhanded statements, now that's some pulpit.
You can't have it both ways. You cannot kvetch about Rush and dismiss Rhodes, and Dean, and Hollywood, etc. If that stuff right there isn't hateful, then nothing is.
Suck it up. You made the boneheaded universal assertion (All of the Right engages in hate speech, none of the Left ever does), and you got called on it.
One more for the road:
"America needs to follow the policies it has introduced in Germany. We have to go through a certain de-Nazification process." -- George Soros
Guess who stands in for the "Nazis" here, and it ain't the Unitarians.
Posted by: Vercingetorix at July 30, 2008 12:59 AM (QaVQ6)
1. I'm sure the Unitarians don't think of their acceptance of gays and lesbians as their 'politics' but rather, their moral and doctrinal viewpoint.
My church has its own internal welfare system that is funded by contributions from members. However, I don't consider the adoption of this system a political stance (even though welfare is a highly polarized political topic) because it inception was not motivated by politics.
2. All the political assassinations I've heard of refer to politicians being killed or situations where the assassination has a calculated political consequence. It is simply the context in which the word 'political assassination' is used.
3. Killing someone from a group you hate is not endorsed nor accepted by any of the major political ideologies in the USA. There is not a single political party out there for whom the vast majority would not view the killings with disgust.
4. There are a lot of racially motivated killings of Latino gang members by black gang members and vice versa. I think we all agree that these should not be considered 'political killings' even though the motivation (often race) has a political connection.
I hope you're all making the connections on these points. Painting the republican party as a group with a large number of seething, bigoted potential murderers is misleading and itellectually lazy. It would be like saying that lots of liberals are drug using communists who secretly contribut money to FARC.
Posted by: Chris Green at July 30, 2008 01:14 AM (ZO9XR)
You want more? I got 'em.
V: offhand, the very worst one of which was clearly a joke,
Which one was that?
V: and I showed you a half-dozen which clearly weren't jokes.
None of which included calls for violence from liberals with the same level of influence and coverage as Ann Coulter.
V> I showed you a professor (by no means alone)
A man who, again, does not enjoy the prominence of an Ann Coulter. And what do you mean by "by no means alone?"
V: Another one wished for 'a million Mogadishus.'
I can't find that quote. What radio show does this professor have? How often is he featured on cable talk-shows and invited to influential liberal gatherings? How many best-sellers has he written?
V> You made the boneheaded universal assertion (All of the Right engages in hate speech, none of the Left ever does), and you got called on it.
No, I did not say that "All the Right engages in hate speech, none of the Left ever does." I said that prominent conservatives like Ann Coulter are using violent rhetoric about liberals. I've seen no prominent liberals using similarly violent rhetoric about conservatives, and by "violent rhetoric" I mean language that implies that violence against conservatives is desirable.
Posted by: Pamela Troy at July 30, 2008 01:19 AM (0+zSf)
Kamau Kambon says "kill white people..."
Google it!
Posted by: Vercingetorix at July 30, 2008 01:24 AM (iTDJo)
However, this killing was not perpetrated by a political group and would not be endorsed by any political group. It was probably not perpetrated for a political end and the guy certainly didn’t do the republican party any favors. The guy’s motivations were probably not that complicated.
Posted by: Chris Green at July 30, 2008 01:25 AM (ZO9XR)
When you kill or assault somebody for their political viewpoint -- whether you do it because they are liberal or because they are conservative -- you are engaging in political violence.
I am not "painting the republican party as a group with a large number of seething, bigoted potential murderers." I'm saying that the kind of rhetoric used by people like Coulter, Savage, and O'Reilly is irresopnsible. It would also be irresponsible for a prominent liberal to announce that only threats of violence can prevent conservatives from committing treason, or to imply that terrorists should be allowed to bomb an American city.
Posted by: Pamela Troy at July 30, 2008 01:25 AM (0+zSf)
And who in the name of the Twelve Apostles is Kamau Kambon?
What was the last liberal or Democratic organization that invited this person to speak? How many attended?
Posted by: Pamela Troy at July 30, 2008 01:27 AM (0+zSf)
As you ignored George Soros' equivocation of conservatives with Nazis. Hell, right there we could spend hours with that subject.
Well, aside from its fairly consistent opposition to racial and sexual equality, religious freedom and unions, what would you accept as a "demonstration" of the Klan as a right-wing organization?
By that measure, France and the rest of Europe is deeply right wing. You need to stop thinking in tautologies, sister.
By all means, show me more quotes. Show me ONE quote, just a single one of a prominent conservative saying, "Kill all liberals." Just one. It should be easy.
Posted by: Vercingetorix at July 30, 2008 01:34 AM (iTDJo)
I'm not familiar with a lot of what Ann Coulter says.
I've never once heard O'Reilly even come close to advocating violence. The only group for whom he has consistently shown real disgust are judges and politicians who let child molesters off easily and gang members. However, never once have I heard him advocate violence in against these people.
I’m sure you realize the danger of saying it is irresponsible to express disgust for that actions of a group that you find disgusting.
Posted by: Chris Green at July 30, 2008 01:36 AM (ZO9XR)
I appreciate this and I realize this was not your intent. However, because many people do not share the precise definition of ‘political killing’ that you do, when you call what happened a political killing, you do, in fact, reinforce the image in many people’s mind of the Republican party as a spawning ground for bigoted killers.
Obviously we republicans are going to object to this and insist that this is not a ‘political killing’ because we don’t want to suggest the image, which we don’t believe is true, of the Republican party as a spawning ground of bigoted killers.
Posted by: Chris Green at July 30, 2008 01:50 AM (ZO9XR)
Seriously, you're retreating too fast. You went from strident conservatives-killed-these-church-goers to Bill-O'Reilly-killed-these-church-goers. That doesn't fly.
Might as well say that Tupac kills 300+ people/year in LA, because of the music, man.
Nobody's buying it. Stop trying to sell it.
Posted by: Vercingetorix at July 30, 2008 02:05 AM (iTDJo)
Posted by: lobbey➑ at July 30, 2008 02:40 AM (j1KB/)
Unless you have another quote, I don't see Ann Coulter advocating violence against political opponents but against traitors.
"We need to execute people like John Walker [Lindh] in order to physically intimidate liberals, by making them realize that they can be killed, too. Otherwise, they will turn out to be outright traitors." — Ann Coulter, speaking to the Conservative Political Action Conference, January 2002
Posted by: Dowlan Smith at July 30, 2008 02:42 AM (hLTx4)
Since she's also unfamiliar with this newfangled Internet app called "google," here are cites to "a million Mogadishus" and the Michael Moore quote:
http://brothersjuddblog.com/archives/2003/03/let_a_million_mogadishus_bloom.html
"A Columbia University professor told an anti-war gathering that he would like to see "a million Mogadishus" -- referring to the 1993 ambush in Somalia that killed 18 American servicemen."
Michael Moore, right after 9-11:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2004/06/29/do2902.xml
"They did not deserve to die. If someone did this to get back at Bush, then they did so by killing thousands of people who DID NOT VOTE for him! Boston, New York, DC and the plane's destination of California – these were places that voted AGAINST Bush!"
Posted by: Clay Waters at July 30, 2008 04:47 AM (rW1e9)
LINDA VESTER (host): You say you'd rather not talk to liberals at all?
COULTER: I think a baseball bat is the most effective way these days.
[FOX News Channel, DaySide with Linda Vester]
Posted by: Eddie at July 30, 2008 07:00 AM (CEAGj)
To quote you "If it was based on their "liberal agenda" it was based on their politics." A liberal agenda is not necessarily political in nature, nor has it been demonstrated that this Church was politically active. It was socially active and pursued liberal ideals, that is not the same as politics.
"But again, I really have to wonder why you seem to have such a big emotional stake in avoiding the term "political murder."" Unlike you, I don't have an emotional stake in avoiding the term "political murder", though i think you mean murdered for their political beliefs. Political violence happens all the time. Some horrific examples are occurring in Zimbabwe. I think that solely pigeon holing this particular incident as a political killing ignores the other factors in issue.
I wonder why you have such a large emotional stake in avoiding any other categorization of this shooting?
Here's a question for you, would Saddam Hussein's gassing and repression of the Kurds have constituted political violence (among other categories), given that the Kurds have been moving for political autonomy?
Posted by: Penfold at July 30, 2008 09:37 AM (lF2Kk)
"When are you haters ever going to start taking responsibility for what you say?"
"you had to provide your own white wash and spin and ignore everything "
"If you had simply accepted and come to terms with this and maybe talk about how angry and guilty it must make you feel "
"But go ahead, keep pulling out the victim card."
yeah, masters of projection indeed!
Posted by: Josh at July 30, 2008 09:57 AM (Cqf36)
But let one skinny blonde make a smart-ass comment about using a clue-by-four? Well, that's just beyond the pale.
Listen, Pamela -- crazy people will grab ANYTHING to fixate on. It's impossible to tell what will trigger them, because they're crazy, and each one is crazy in a different way. As I mentioned above, the only way to prevent the unhinged from finding a motivational trigger is to ban "irresponsible" speech across the board. Until I see you criticizing fantasy "documentaries" about killing the President, and until I see you advocating that left-wing loons like Rhodes be banned from the airwaves, it's simply impossible to take you seriously.
Not that I'd agree with you in any case. Rhodes and Coulter have equal liberty to say what they will. We don't live in a country that forces us to tailor our speech and our behavior to conform with somebody's idea of what's "acceptable" or "responsible," and I'm happy to keep it that way.
Posted by: Squid at July 30, 2008 09:58 AM (XyDTQ)
v> I see that you ignored Shooter, by the way. I think that was a good move on your part: that way you can ignore the incitement to murder.
In what way is Shooter more of an incitement to murder than any other boring action film?
PT: Well, aside from its fairly consistent opposition to racial and sexual equality, religious freedom and unions, what would you accept as a "demonstration" of the Klan as a right-wing organization?
V: By that measure, France and the rest of Europe is deeply right wing.
How do you figure? Unions are much stronger in France and Europe than here and while no country is perfect when it comes to wiping out racial prejudice, the governments of France and most other European countries don’t approach the Klan’s venomous attitude towards race.
Are you ever going to explain what you would accept as a “demonstration” of the Klan as a right wing organization?
Since I never claimed that prominent rightwingers were advocating mass genocide of liberals, I’m not sure why I’m suddenly required to produce such a quote. Limbaugh has said:
“I tell people don’t kill all the liberals. Leave enough around so we can have two on every campus – living fossils – so we will never forget what these people stood for.” Rush Limbaugh
More quotes? You betcha!
From Michael Savage
“If I ran this country, I'd hang the lawyer. I would try her for aiding and abetting terrorism -- I'd hang her and I'd hang every lawyer who went down to Guantánamo to defend those murderers." (on the lawyers for two Muslim students accused of providing aid to terrorists.")
"If I had the power by executive order, I would round up every member of the ACLU and of the National Lawyers Guild, and I'd put them in a prison in Guantánamo and I'd throw the key away."
Michael Savage on Madeline Albright: “I want to direct you to a traitor. In my opinion, she should be tried for treason, and when she's found guilty, she should be hung. And when she is hung, maybe the other quislings in our government will get the message that we're going to crack down on them, and that our safety and the safety our children mean something to us.”
Ann Coulter:
"My only regret with Timothy McVeigh is he did not go to the New York Times Building,''
"We need somebody to put rat poison in Justice Stevens's créme brulée.''
On John Murtha: “The reason soldiers invented ‘fragging.’”
''(Liberals) are always accusing us of repressing their speech. I say let's do it. Let's repress them. ... Frankly, I'm not a big fan of the First Amendment,''
Posted by: Pamela Troy at July 30, 2008 10:44 AM (0+zSf)
I've never once heard O'Reilly even come close to advocating violence.
November 8, 2006:
Bill O’Reilly: “Listen, citizens of San Francisco, if you vote against military recruiting, you're not going to get another nickel in federal funds. Fine. You want to be your own country? Go right ahead.
And if Al Qaeda comes in here and blows you up, we're not going to do anything about it. We're going to say, look, every other place in America is off limits to you, except San Francisco. You want to blow up the Coit Tower? Go ahead.”
Posted by: Pamela Troy at July 30, 2008 10:55 AM (0+zSf)
November 8, 2006:
Bill O’Reilly: “Listen, citizens of San Francisco, if you vote against military recruiting, you're not going to get another nickel in federal funds. Fine. You want to be your own country? Go right ahead.
And if Al Qaeda comes in here and blows you up, we're not going to do anything about it. We're going to say, look, every other place in America is off limits to you, except San Francisco. You want to blow up the Coit Tower? Go ahead.”
Posted by: Pamela Troy at July 30, 2008 10:57 AM (0+zSf)
November 8, 2006:
Bill O’Reilly: “Listen, citizens of San Francisco, if you vote against military recruiting, you're not going to get another nickel in federal funds. Fine. You want to be your own country? Go right ahead."
And if Al Qaeda comes in here and blows you up, we're not going to do anything about it. We're going to say, look, every other place in America is off limits to you, except San Francisco. You want to blow up the Coit Tower? Go ahead.”
Posted by: Pamela Troy at July 30, 2008 10:58 AM (0+zSf)
Posted by: Pamela Troy at July 30, 2008 11:02 AM (0+zSf)
Posted by: Pamela Troy at July 30, 2008 11:04 AM (0+zSf)
Yes.
Posted by: Pamela Troy at July 30, 2008 11:06 AM (0+zSf)
As you know, Squid, it's not just "one skinny blonde mak[ing] a smart-ass comment about using a two-by-four." It's Coulter, among others, making numerous statements strongly implying violence towards their political opponents, and being given a bully pulpit from which to do it.
Posted by: Pamela Troy at July 30, 2008 11:10 AM (0+zSf)
Is there an actual argument anywhere in that diatribe?
Or does venting like that just make you feel better when you've read something that upsets you?
Posted by: Josh at July 30, 2008 11:13 AM (0+zSf)
If your entire thesis is that Ann Coulter and Michael Savage killed these people (vicariously, through their scary mind-power which only you can see), then you must accept the logic that gangster rap kills people, violent movies kill people, etc. Of course, that glosses over the actual people doing the killing, but whatever.
Admit that gangsta rap kills people and I might nod that Rush Limbaugh kills people.
And you're a big girl, make a case that the Klan is rightist and I might bite. I'd be interested in seeing you tie imperialism, papism, racism, capitalism, fascism, militarism, anarchism, etc into a huge self-contradictory mess.
PS, I'm done with the quotes. You have ignored - and will continue to ignore - every quote I put out. I could fill a river with paper quotes and you would just huff and wave your hand at those 'intemperate' comments. Show some good faith and it will be returned.
Posted by: Vercingetorix at July 30, 2008 11:25 AM (V/FgT)
"When are you haters ever going to start taking responsibility for what you say?"
"you had to provide your own white wash and spin and ignore everything "
"If you had simply accepted and come to terms with this and maybe talk about how angry and guilty it must make you feel "
"But go ahead, keep pulling out the victim card."
"The fact remains that the right has, for the past couple of decades, gotten increasingly violent and dehumanizing when talking about liberals. Do you really imagine that dehumanizing and violent rhetoric is not going to lead to dehumanizing and violent actions?"
yeah, masters of projection indeed!
Posted by: josh at July 30, 2008 11:29 AM (Cqf36)
But what would you accept as "making a case?" What kind of evidence would I need to present?
I'm sorry, but denying that the Klan is right wing really has to be the last word in revisionism. If you don't accept the Klan's historical record on racial and sexual equality, etc., I have to wonder what you WOULD accept. Give me a clue and I'll take a stab at responding.
And by the way -- there are still LOTS of questions I asked that you haven't addressed. You going to give it a shot?
Posted by: Pamela at July 30, 2008 11:30 AM (0+zSf)
Posted by: Pamela Troy at July 30, 2008 11:31 AM (0+zSf)
No, you've begged the questions many times, but haven't actually made an inquiry into anything. For instance, In what way is Shooter more of an incitement to murder than any other boring action film? is an evasion, not a question.
But what would you accept as "making a case?" What kind of evidence would I need to present?
Alot more than an empty assertion. I'm not going to do it for you.
Posted by: Vercingetorix at July 30, 2008 11:40 AM (V/FgT)
Posted by: Pamela Troy at July 30, 2008 11:42 AM (0+zSf)
But none of that has anything to do with the politics of myself nor today's GOP. If you are somehow making the point that the GOP = KKK, go ahead and make that point.
The one single point you need to make is Ann Coulter is a murderer. This guy murdered people because Ann Coulter played his Jodi Foster and told him to do so.
Posted by: Vercingetorix at July 30, 2008 11:53 AM (V/FgT)
My premise is not that the KKK "was on the right in 1864 etc..." My premise is that it is STILL on the right side of the political aisle, as it was in its beginnings, as it was in its heyday, as it was in the 1960s. I'm simply responding to your bizarre demand that I "demonstrate" that the Klan was and remains a right-wing organization.
Plainly you've figured out that implying (as you did) that the Klan is NOT right-wing is a losing proposition. I suppose that's progress.
No, I do not think, nor have I said that GOP=KKK. No, I do not think Ann Coulter is a murderer. Nor do I think she should be held legally liable for the killings in Tennessee. That does not absolve her and others like her, who casually label political opponents "traitors" and talk lightly of killing them, of some measure of moral responsibility. She, Savage, Limbaugh and many others of that stripe have helped create the kind of poisonous political environment that makes the kind of senseless violence we say in Tennessee more likely.
Ever heard of a man named Julius Streicher?
Posted by: Pamela Troy at July 30, 2008 12:07 PM (0+zSf)
Posted by: Vercingetorix at July 30, 2008 12:18 PM (V/FgT)
“What makes you think you're entitled to insult thousands of people you've never even met merely because you dislike their politics?”
Unlike you, I’ve shed blood for this country. I still serve this country and will continue to be a proud American til the day I die. Good enough reason to be disgusted by the likes of you and your ilk… a self loathing liberal who, without the protections offered by the Constitution and reinforced and protected me and ‘my kind’, would be fodder for some of the real sickos out there.
“I've known liberals who fought in the Second World War, the Korean War, the Vietnam War.”
Ah yes… the fallback position of one who has no real position… “well I know a guy who knows a guy…” Well guess what? I know a guy who fought in WW2 and Korea and served under guys who were in Nam... And during the Gulf Part 1 and I’m still over here for Gulf Part 2. All of them ‘liberals’. Hell, I’m a New Hampshire born and raised Democrat. Why is it always a thing for a liberal to have to claim that because you know and empathize with someone who as Kipling called it “..has seen the Elephant” and yet try and claim it as your own? YOU have NEVER Been-There-Done-That so don’t pontificate to me the realities of war… war sucks but if asked to do it again, and to keep my children from having to do it, I’ll do it again, and again and again.
Also, to end your rather weak condemnation of Coulter, Savage, Limbaugh and the like, the majority of cases you note are without merit. NONE of them could be traced to any sort of “right wing media hype towards violence.” Lets examine your so called “recent events”
The Goldman Case: “David Lewis Rice (born 195
A sick bastard. I’d kill him myself given a chance. But to add an interesting point on it, and why he didn’t get the most deserved death penalty: “A sticking point of Rice's case throughout the trial process was the psychotic symptoms that he sometimes displayed, and his attorney's lack of emphasis on them.”
Another sick individual…but old news… circa 1985. 23 years ago… A tragedy, but nonetheless again, nothing new.
Your line: “…current bombings of clinics, the assassinations of physicians and clinic workers”
To whit I offer from MSNBC: “There were 1,700 acts of violence against abortion providers between 1977 and 1994, with four people killed in 1994 and one in 1993, according to statistics from the National Abortion Federation.”
I believe Limbaugh >might
bombings” leads the uneducated reader to think this is current events… somehow I don’t think that an event over 14 years ago counts as ‘current events’, even in a Government school.
And for the ‘Peekskill Riots’ I offer this from Wiki:
“The so-called Peekskill Riots were anti-communist riots (with anti-black and anti-Semitic undertones) that took place at Van Cortlandtville, Westchester County, New York in 1949.”
Jeez… yer reaching when you have to bring up something from before when My MOM was born… That’s what I call a reach. And to burst your bubble on media influence, even wiki states: …”The local paper, The Peekskill Evening Star, condemned the concert and encouraged people to make their position on communism felt, but fell short of espousing violence.”
Also: “Should the firebombing of black churches be considered an extension of the lynching epidemic?”
According to digitalhistory dot com: “The last officially recorded lynching in the United States occurred in 1968.”
Again… dredging old news and repackaging it.
Try again.
All of these cases mind you, disgust me. What makes me even more disgusted is a sick self loathing Leftist like you repackaging it and using an average of 25 year old events to justify a twisted agenda. I know all of the civil right issues sucked, and the violence that went along with it doubly so. But what I cant get past is that you are all so quick to “forgive and forget” the Twin Towers and the rise of radical Islam, but can’t get past something from 30 years +/- ago because it went against YOU and YOURS. Again the specter of Selfishness Self Gratification and Pity that marks a Leftist.
Your condemnation of the “Right Wing Media” has more to do with a dislike of
A) Their Popularity among the “Great Unwashed”
B) Their Message, which is “Be Proud of America, Love it or get the hell out”
C) The innate failure of Anti-Americans like Randi Rhodes and the Failure of “Leftist Media” on the airwaves.
The left has always consisted of individuals who believe that “they know best” because of the privilege and ‘social stratification’ that they themselves adhere to. In the basic run of things, the reason people like me get so mad is that you inherently reject that which ultimately protects you. You dump on us, you make fun of us, and you manipulate and twist things so that you get the most enjoyment out of life while taking the ‘wind out of others sails.’ I have said it once, and I will say it again. Leftists suffer from the delusion that YOU know best, that YOU are the center of the universe, that YOU deserve anything and everything that YOU should get. Is it any wonder that the country is going down the crapper? And just to prove a point: All of those Leftist Actors who publically stated that they were going to move to Canada, France or wherever when Bush got re-elected? Why are they still here?
Because it’s the BEST DAMNED COUNTRY IN THE WORLD AND EVERYONE KNOWS IT.
In short Pamela, sit down, take a break and realize that you are outnumbered, outthought and reduced to a shell when it comes to this particular thread.
Here endeth the Lesson.
Posted by: Big Country at July 30, 2008 12:22 PM (niydV)
A common thread of these mass murders is the attempt to remake society according to some utopian plan or ideology. Which groups are trying to remake US society today to conform to their utopian schemes?
Pamela, I hold you personally responsible for each and every one of those murders.
Posted by: George Bruce at July 30, 2008 12:39 PM (v4XVE)
You are aware, right, that the Nazis used the term "Socialist" strictly as a ploy to bring in working class Germans?
That was the consensus of pretty much every contemporary observer, whether a diarist, reporter, or, since that time, historians. Which is why so many wealthy right wing industrialists and members of the military were such ardent supporters of Hitler.
Sorry, but the Nazis were no more "socialists" than Saddam Hussein's REPUBLICAN Guard was a branch of the GOP.
Posted by: Pamela Troy at July 30, 2008 12:40 PM (0+zSf)
I know, it's almost as crazy as a communist (ie, not a man of the right) killing a lefty president. Oh, damnit, Lee Harvey and JFK. My bust.
Posted by: Vercingetorix at July 30, 2008 12:44 PM (V/FgT)
Oh, of course. Besides the whole industrial model, economic thing, political thing, etc, I totally know that the Nazis were nothing like socialists.
Posted by: Vercingetorix at July 30, 2008 12:46 PM (V/FgT)
Oh, of course. In fact, besides the whole economic and political thing, the Nazis were nothing like socialists. I think both social philosophies liked kittens.
Pam, don't even start that weak stuff with me. I don't care about the KKK, but I will gladly nail you to this particular cross.
Posted by: Vercingetorix at July 30, 2008 12:55 PM (V/FgT)
Ooooooo! SCAREY!
BC: Unlike you, I’ve shed blood for this country.
And no liberal ever has? No liberal fought in the Second World War? The Korean War? The Vietnam War? The First Gulf War?
Sorry, but being a veteran does not give you carte-blanch to insult me, my friends, or members of my family – who by the way include liberals who shed blood for this country.
BC: Ah yes… the fallback position of one who has no real position… “well I know a guy who knows a guy…”
No, I didn’t say “I know a guy who knows a guy…”
I said, I know liberals who have shed blood for this country. Some of them are more liberal than I am.
BC: The Goldman Case: “David Lewis Rice (born 195
And most who have followed the Rice case trace his targeting of the Goldmarks to the vitriolic nonsense fed to him by an ultra right wing group called The Duck Club.
No, as you observed, the connection between dehumanizing language and dehumanizing actions is “nothing new.” The career of Streicher during the Third Reich taught us all a great deal about it.
BC: And for the ‘Peekskill Riots’ I offer this from Wiki: “The so-called Peekskill Riots were anti-communist riots (with anti-black and anti-Semitic undertones) that took place at Van Cortlandtville, Westchester County, New York in 1949.” Jeez… yer reaching when you have to bring up something from before when My MOM was born… That’s what I call a reach. And to burst your bubble on media influence, even wiki states: …”The local paper, The Peekskill Evening Star, condemned the concert and encouraged people to make their position on communism felt, but fell short of espousing violence.”
The Peekskill Evening Star didn’t have to directly espouse violence. They just pointed at the concert, called Paul Robeson a traitor, and trusted their readers to get the message. They did.
When the concert was re-scheduled, the local American Legion boasted of having run “that n*gger Robeson” out of town and vowed they would do it again. After the September 4th riot, the paper compared the American Legion “patriots” who’d joined in throwing rocks at cars filled with families to the Americans at the Boston Tea Party.”
BC: “The last officially recorded lynching in the United States occurred in 1968.” Again… dredging old news and repackaging it. Try again.
“Old news?” Sorry, but to some of us, 1968 isn’t all that long ago. It’s well within living memory. As I said, the Lynching epidemic went from the late 19th well into the 20th century.
BC: What makes me even more disgusted is a sick self loathing Leftist like you repackaging it and using an average of 25 year old events to justify a twisted agenda.
What makes you think I’m “self loathing?”
BC: you are all so quick to “forgive and forget” the Twin Towers
Who’s calling us to “forgive and forget” 9/11?
BC: The left has always consisted of individuals who believe that “they know best” because of the privilege and ‘social stratification’ that they themselves adhere to.
Plainly you know very little about the left. The most liberal to leftist people I know come from poor to working class backgrounds – not affluence.
You know, you really need to use something other than right-wing blogs and wikipedia to draw your conclusions about the left.
Posted by: Pamela Troy at July 30, 2008 01:01 PM (0+zSf)
You need to meet more people.
Posted by: Vercingetorix at July 30, 2008 01:12 PM (V/FgT)
They may come from spoilt upbringings, but earn less. Think of the rich man's daughter who attends an Ivy League school to study 'Women's Studies' or some other nonsense, and then graduates and earns only $25K.
Posted by: Tweed at July 30, 2008 01:28 PM (Hof1q)
Good for them. I have to say, maybe they can teach you something about patriotism.
“The Peekskill Evening Star didn’t have to directly espouse violence. They just pointed at the concert, called Paul Robeson a traitor, and trusted their readers to get the message. They did.”
Really? Are you sure? Were you there? Please.
“Sorry, but to some of us, 1968 isn’t all that long ago. It’s well within living memory.”
Glad it’s not within mine. Then again, you retreads who were part of the “Summer of Love” still wish you were back there.
“What makes you think I’m “self loathing?”
Your inability to see beyond the fact that you present a thesis that political violence is strictly a media creation of the “Right Wing” and your diehard inability to see anything beyond your rose-colored myopic vision of “what shoulda-coulda-outghta been” rather than face the truth that as I stated before, (and by not touching it you avoided) “I still serve this country and will continue to be a proud American til the day I die. Good enough reason to be disgusted by the likes of you and your ilk… a self loathing liberal who, without the protections offered by the Constitution and reinforced and protected me and ‘my kind’, would be fodder for some of the real sickos out there.” You assiduously avoid any possibility that the rest of “us” find both your position and opinion to be counter productive and even treasonous. You try to find nuggets that allow you to wave the bloody flag of self righteousness and thereby inflame the rhetoric until ‘something’ can break in your favor. Sorry, but ad-hominem attacks are not my way. Cold Logic is my preferred debating tool.
As stated before and in response to your “Plainly you know very little about the left. The most liberal to leftist people I know come from poor to working class backgrounds – not affluence. “
“You know, you really need to use something other than right-wing blogs and wikipedia to draw your conclusions about the left.”
What part of “Hell, I’m a New Hampshire born and raised Democrat.” do you NOT understand? My father was a Professor at a well known Liberal Bastion and so was my Mother. I know liberalism to the Nth Degree. I also feel I’m rather Liberal myself, but I find that my definition of liberal is far removed from the neo-socialist damned near communist Democratic Daily KoS type of liberalism. In fact, I’m offended by those who claim the mantel of “liberalism” and cloak their “we know best” neo-fascist leanings in the guise of “for the children” or any of the other pithy feel good crap you espouse. I draw my conclusions from having to listen to the tripe served up on a self serving Leftist mainstream media that cares less about the actual state of the Country and the effects that they have on it, and how those effects will effect me and mine. I’ve been dealing with it for the past 5 years and will be for the next few.
In closing… I will just throw out there. You live in San Francisco (lovely town despite its rhetorical hate of anything American)… How long before you would be a rabid hawk if Kim Il-Jong launched a Taepdong II missile loaded with VX at your city? (Mind you he hasn't... yet. and you ARE within range)
As they say, “A Liberal is a Conservative-in-waiting who hasn’t been mugged yet.”
Posted by: Big Country at July 30, 2008 01:32 PM (niydV)
Stop, please, stop this stupid line of argument.
Good grief.
"German communists, socialists and trade unionists were among the earliest domestic opponents of Nazism[108] and were also among the first to be sent to concentration camps. "
"Hitler and the Nazis also hated German leftists because of their resistance to the party's racism. Many leaders of German leftist groups were Jews, and Jews were especially prominent among the leaders of the Spartacist Uprising in 1919. Hitler already referred to Marxism and "Bolshevism" as a means of "the international Jew" to undermine "racial purity" and survival of the Nordics or Aryans (sometimes of all white Europeans), as well to stir up socioeconomic class tension and labor unions against the government or state-owned businesses."
Do you want to really get into this? I can back all of this up.
Do you really think you're "nailing" anyone to the cross with your revisionist claptrap??
Stop it, please.
Fact is the right is happy to see dead liberals. Period.
Posted by: angryflower at July 30, 2008 01:56 PM (uMRcI)
Posted by: Penfold at July 30, 2008 02:05 PM (lF2Kk)
Fact is the right is happy to see dead liberals. Period.
If you really, honestly believe that, I truly pity the small life you lead and the people you know.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at July 30, 2008 02:20 PM (xNV2a)
In what manner was Hitler a leftist? He rolled back pretty much every liberal reform of the Weimar Republic, turned the clock back on the emancipation of women, burned avant-garde literature and art, and was the darling of wealthy industrialists and the military. By what measure was he “leftist?” And how do you account for the fact that every contemporary observer, no matter what their politics, described the Nazis as right wingers?
As a liberal I am no more responsible for the murders by Pol Pot and Stalin than you, as a conservative, are responsible for the murders by Hitler and Pinochet.
How does this obscene arithmatic of yours work, by the way? Is it a way of rationalizing the murders of leftists in Chile, Guatemala, etc?
Posted by: Pamela Troy at July 30, 2008 02:25 PM (0+zSf)
The sooner you snap out of your head-in-the-sand tropism, the better you'll feel!
Posted by: Vercingetorix at July 30, 2008 02:28 PM (V/FgT)
No, they weren't. The workers in the Third Reich did not control the means of production. None of their contemporaries, whether on the right or the left, mistook the Nazis for leftists. Certainly the wealthy industrialists who supported them -- among them Henry Ford -- did not consider them socialists.
What exactly have you read about the Third Reich? I mean aside from Jonah Goldberg's recent novel?
Posted by: Pamela Troy at July 30, 2008 02:29 PM (0+zSf)
V: You need to meet more people.
I suspect I have a wider range of acquaintance among liberals and leftists than you do.
Posted by: Pamela Troy at July 30, 2008 02:32 PM (0+zSf)
Or the Native Americans! Bless Gaia, don't forget them!
Posted by: Vercingetorix at July 30, 2008 02:34 PM (V/FgT)
Not the liberals and leftists I know. They're a pretty mixed bag.
You really do believe the stereotypes, don't you? I guess this is what comes of getting most of your information from talk radio and right-wing blogs.
Posted by: Pamela Troy at July 30, 2008 02:35 PM (0+zSf)
Praise be to Gaia.
Posted by: Vercingetorix at July 30, 2008 02:35 PM (V/FgT)
No, V, it was not. There may have been the very occasional leftist who had nice things to say about Hitler and Mussolini, but these were not the rule. Most leftists were early opponents of fascism. There were many, many more admirers of fascism on the right.
Anyone who has actually taken the trouble to read contemporary accounts of the rise of the Third Reich knows this.
Posted by: Pamela Troy at July 30, 2008 02:38 PM (0+zSf)
V: Praise be to Gaia.
Your above comment is why I suspect you're just a tad sheltered when it comes to actually knowing and interacting with liberals. People who think in terms of stereotypes are rarely very familiar with the groups they generalize about.
Posted by: Pamela Troy at July 30, 2008 02:40 PM (0+zSf)
AHHHH I forgot... when in doubt or without meaningful argument, the Left falls back on it's "point the finger at the Nazis" and refer any and all arguements towards this, as seeing that the "Third Reich" was the most brutal regime to have ever existed, and thereby invoking it's hostile imagery, you win through default, inasmuch as I've "tooled and schooled" you to the point of no return nor recovery, you are left to the dialectic of GOP = "Third Reich"
Nicely, but poorly played. We are on to you. Just surrender now. Unlike leftists, we try to rehabilitate those who need deprogramming.
Posted by: Big Country at July 30, 2008 02:44 PM (niydV)
I'm sure Obama would chastise many of the comments here.
The past 16 years of hate hate hate has not helped either party, or helped our government. Maybe it's time for the name calling to stop? that's what Obama says at least. It's what I believe.
Posted by: plutosdad at July 30, 2008 02:55 PM (Ra76/)
The Third Reich is interesting because it provides an example of a formerly open, cultured society descending into utter barbarism in a matter of just a few years. In the years following the second world war, one of the primary questions asked was how it could have happened. The consensus of those who studied that era was that the rhetoric of propagandists like Streicher and Goebbels had a lot to do with it.
That is also probably why so many right-wingers today are either trying to recast the Nazis as leftists or simply forget the lessons about dehumanizing language we presumably learned from the horrors of the Third Reich.
Posted by: Pamela Troy at July 30, 2008 03:14 PM (0+zSf)
Keep your day job. Detective work isn't in your future.
The workers in the Third Reich did not control the means of production.
Well, so fascists weren't communists. Amazing.
Certainly the wealthy industrialists who supported them -- among them Henry Ford -- did not consider them socialists.
Sweden is the most socialist country in perhaps the world. They have companies, and those companies have CEOs, wealthy industrialists. Doesn't make them less socialist.
Moreover, the internationalist communists were an opposing camp. Stalin followed the same path to much worse results, even against the Jews. Doesn't make him any less to the left.
If your definition of right/left is simply racist/internationalist, communist/not, then you need to step away from the computer and go to the library.
Posted by: Vercingetorix at July 30, 2008 03:24 PM (V/FgT)
Yes, they have taught me that true patriotism does not consist of merely impugning the patriotism of those who disagree with you.
BC: They did. Really? Are you sure? Were you there? Please.
Yes really. No, I was not there. I was not born then, but the record of the Peekskill Evening Star speaks for itself. It's not like Peekskill was, as a community, ashamed of what had happened. They had bumperstickers boasting about it for God's sake.
BC: Then again, you retreads who were part of the “Summer of Love” still wish you were back there.
LOL! The Summer of Love was in 1967 San Francisco, BC, not 68. And I was in fourth grade in Louisiana. Hardly a part of it.
Why do you kids persist in think thinking in stereotypes? And If the fact that I was not at Peekskill means I can't comment on what happened here, what are you doing spouting nonsense about the Summer of Love?
BC: Your inability to see beyond the fact that you present a thesis that political violence is strictly a media creation of the “Right Wing”
That is not my thesis, and any rational person who has actually read what I've written here knows it.
BC: You assiduously avoid any possibility that the rest of “us” find both your position and opinion to be counter productive and even treasonous.
"Treasonous?"
How is what I've said here treasonous?
BC: Sorry, but ad-hominem attacks are not my way.
Do you even known what an "ad-hominem attack" is? You've been engaging in them practically nonstop, throwing out some pretty staggering assumptions about me simply because you dislike my politics.
BC: Cold Logic is my preferred debating tool.
Then let's see some. So far you've not offered a single example.
BC: What part of “Hell, I’m a New Hampshire born and raised Democrat.” do you NOT understand?
I understand it fine. Those facts don't make you knowledgeable about liberalism.
BC: My father was a Professor at a well known Liberal Bastion and so was my Mother. I know liberalism to the Nth Degree.
No, I'm sorry, but you don't. You are in fact pretty naive about liberalism. All you've offered so far are not very smart pop culture stereotypes about liberals.
BC: You live in San Francisco (lovely town despite its rhetorical hate of anything American)… How long before you would be a rabid hawk if Kim Il-Jong launched a Taepdong II missile loaded with VX at your city? (Mind you he hasn't... yet. and you ARE within range)
You bet I'd be a "rabid hawk" if a foreign power bombed our city. I'm not a pacifist. Nor are most liberals. And if you actually knew about liberalism, you'd know that.
BC: As they say, “A Liberal is a Conservative-in-waiting who hasn’t been mugged yet.”
I've been mugged. I'm still a liberal.
Sorry kiddo, but you're one of the most unconvincing "experts" on liberalism I've ever encountered.
Posted by: Pamela Troy at July 30, 2008 03:29 PM (0+zSf)
Well Pam, I agree that it was fascinating to a certain degree, but historically, it was due and proven to be a combination of outrageous punishments instilled by the Treaty of Versailles and the open licentiousness of the Weimar Republic. The Germans are, as a people a very “Alles en Ordenun” sort of volk, and they found themselves economically stifled through insane war treaty induced debt. I lived in Germany for 2 years (West Germany actually) and know the German mindset. They were quite easily led by as you said “The consensus of those who studied that era was that the rhetoric of propagandists like Streicher and Goebbels had a lot to do with it.”
I agree on that 100%. Goebbels who was a failed Chicken Rancher and looked nothing like the “Master Race” he so vociferously proposed as the “perfect German.”
My problem with you is as you state: “That is also probably why so many right-wingers today are either trying to recast the Nazis as leftists or simply forget the lessons about dehumanizing language we presumably learned from the horrors of the Third Reich.”
YOU state that it’s the ‘right wingers’ who keep “trying to recast the Nazis”… Uh last I looked, YOU brought them to the table as the uninvited bastard children of this argument. Not I. It’s the neo-socialist-leftists who have for the past 7 years compared the Bush Administration to Hitler et al. I maintain it is the leftists who utilize the Nazi imagery as the “Final Solution” (pardon the pun) to dealing with unpleasant realities and when confronted with a losing argument. Much as Hitler ordered a plan of ‘scorched earth’ during Operation Barbarossa, a Liberal needs to decimate a Conservative with your version of a bomb, thereby retreating behind catcalls of “Fascists” and “Nazis.”
Anything else?
Posted by: Big Country at July 30, 2008 03:29 PM (niydV)
I was wondering what you defined "right wingers" and "liberals" as? I ask because the terms have been bandied around by everyone and I suspect that there are differences on what people believe/define these groups to be or premised upon.
Posted by: Penfold at July 30, 2008 03:36 PM (lF2Kk)
Hope that helps!
Posted by: Vercingetorix at July 30, 2008 03:48 PM (V/FgT)
Stop trying to tie this tragedy into your own rhetoric. It's offensive in general, and more specifically considering many UUs represent everything the (small c) christians on the right spew these days.
Posted by: Monica at July 30, 2008 03:54 PM (hduQb)
Posted by: Monica at July 30, 2008 03:55 PM (hduQb)
Ad hominem attacks are often used in a debate or discussion where the speaker wishes to avoid the substance of the discussion and instead resorts to smearing the character of their opponent.
It is considered a logical fallacy and is one of the modes of spreading propaganda.”
Somehow, I don’t see ANYTHING of what I’ve posted today as such. Then again, it’s all in the eye of the beholder. Thusfar, my assumptions about you have been that primarily, you’re an older, (over 50) female of the Left Wing Democratic Persuasion and you live in San Francisco. Forgive the assumption, but the majority of us out there consider your choice of cities to be one of the “more insane” politically speaking. It’s fine if you were to keep your politics local, but for some reason, every lunatic with a left wing axe to grind takes their cases to your 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals and subsequently tries to ram it down the rest of our throats.
This in essence is my issue.
I, despite you referring to me multiple times as “kid” or “kiddo”… I take that as a weak attempt to make me angry, and thereby leaving me open to actual accusations of childishness. In reality, I’m a combat vet who’s not much younger than you, however, judging from your attempts here, my maturity is much more progressed than yours.
“Sorry kiddo, but you're one of the most unconvincing "experts" on liberalism I've ever encountered.”
Never having claimed to be an expert on liberals, nor wanting to. As I stated before, and which you AGAIN sidestepped I consider modern day liberalism as preached by you and yours to be “neo-socialist damned near communist Democratic Daily KoS type of liberalism. In fact, I’m offended by those who claim the mantel of “liberalism” and cloak their “we know best” neo-fascist leanings in the guise of “for the children” or any of the other pithy feel good crap you espouse. I draw my conclusions from having to listen to the tripe served up on a self serving Leftist mainstream media that cares less about the actual state of the Country and the effects that they have on it, and how those effects will effect me and mine. I’ve been dealing with it for the past 5 years and will be for the next few.” I find by going out to the web and the Princeton Webdictionary that Liberal is defined as:
“having political or social views favoring reform and progress
tolerant of change; not bound by authoritarianism, orthodoxy, or tradition
a person who favors a political philosophy of progress and reform and the protection of
civil liberties”
In this, my tolerance for the neo-liberalism that infests this country like a plague leaves me cold. You have been and are by demonstration been wholly unwilling to
“have political or social views favoring reform and progress (as long as it’s a Democrat in charge)
Been “ tolerant of change; not bound by authoritarianism, orthodoxy, or tradition” in that you throw the KKK and the Third Reich out there with gleeful abandon when it come to close verbal combat.
Nor have you been “a person who favors a political philosophy of progress and reform and the protection of civil liberties.” If anything, by being as anti-right wing and again making the claim of your original argument :
“When are you haters ever going to start taking responsibility for what you say?
and
“I take political violence very seriously. Which is why I've never found right wing "jokes" about killing liberals very funny.”
You have YET to admit that it’s a two way street, nor will you. It’s completely against the grain for a person such as yourself to admit that you are incorrect and that your arguments hold no water.
Posted by: Big Country at July 30, 2008 03:56 PM (niydV)
it's possible that the people shot didn't deserve it. They were probably just typical lame but relatively harmless liberals.
Hey, it's real generous of you to allow for the possibility that they didn't deserve to die just for being liberals. Still, I don't know if "lame and harmless" are the words I would use to describe a person who would block a shotgun blast with his body to save others from this psycho freak. Or for the unarmed people who took his gun away from him after he had just murdered two people before their eyes.
Your choice of adjectives aside, you shouldn't be fantasizing about people getting murdered. It's a sign that there's something wrong with you. You need help.
Posted by: tb at July 30, 2008 05:32 PM (M23yO)
Re. "Hey, Pam, here's a 'coarsening' quote for you...
"If they bring a knife to the fight, we bring a gun," Obama said at a fundraiser in Philadelphia Friday, according to pool reports.
This one from the Messiah himself."
I'm not sure you understand the context of this quotation from "The Untouchables." It's basically referring to the need to understand the opponent, particularly as one who takes no prisoners, and fight fire with fire. NOT, it must be said, in the sense of actual violence, but in the sense of understanding the tactics of the enemy and incorporating them into one's own actions in an even more effective way.
This does not in any way condone actual violence.
Your comments?
Posted by: Laura at July 30, 2008 05:32 PM (hReHK)
Posted by: laura at July 30, 2008 05:46 PM (hReHK)
Guess who stands in for the "Nazis" here, and it ain't the Unitarians.'
Vercingetorix, what exactly do you think was entailed in the "de-Nazification" process? The dismantling of a political system which employed wide-scale surveillance of the population, for one thing, and the TRIALS of those accused of committing atrocities. In what way is that damaging? If our country were under the control of the same kind of partisans/system, I would hope we would have the self-control to handle matters in a similar fashion.
Posted by: laura at July 30, 2008 06:13 PM (hReHK)
However, vis-a-vis your attibution of Obamas comments, he himself (to my research thusfar) didn't sufficiently attribute the comment to that scene in "The Untouchables" per se, and therefor becomes "grist for the mill" for those of us who have been stating since the get go, that strictly speaking that conservatives are the 'force majeur (sp?)' behind political violence and calls to political violence.
BOTH sides have been equally repellant in recent history, and BOTH sides have taken each other to task over this, albeit not without a certain amount of shall we say "exuberance" on the part of Liberals who can bash Savage, Coulter, et al.
Posted by: Big Country at July 30, 2008 06:13 PM (niydV)
Cheers!
Posted by: laura at July 30, 2008 06:18 PM (hReHK)
Posted by: laura at July 30, 2008 06:18 PM (hReHK)
It is the responsibility of "good" people to take a stand when wrong is done/said. Does anyone disagree with me?
Posted by: laura at July 30, 2008 06:21 PM (hReHK)
Pam, on the other hand, would take that as evidence of a coming pogrom on liberals if it came from a conservative. Meanwhile ignoring comparable statements from her side. And that's high comedy (or low tragedy, take your pick).
Posted by: Vercingetorix at July 30, 2008 06:31 PM (V/FgT)
There is no quibbling about it. He pretty much warned everyone from the get go that his comments were going to be ‘ugly’ and therefore, as reprehensible as one may find them, they are what they are.
As you so said: “It is the responsibility of "good" people to take a stand when wrong is done/said. Does anyone disagree with me?”
It is the responsibility of ‘good people’ everywhere to stand up and shout down that which is wrong. However wrong Ken may be, his commentary comes after several pages worth of diatribe and circular logic with Pamela Troy and her leftist screed. I fully understand where Ken is coming from, and that sometimes one gets out of line within the boundaries of good taste and emotive discussion.
It is also the responsibility of ‘good people’ to realize that when their opinions are NOT the majority, (especially on a conservative blog such as Bobs) and they persist in fanning the flames of open blog-word-warfare, that eventually, courtesy breaks down, and you want to tell someone to “eff” off in the worst way possible. I’ve been dancing with Pam on this pretty much all day and a good portion of last night (I like to think I’m ahead on points and substance
Is there an off chance for anyone to change their basic systems of beliefs? I doubt it. Both sides are firmly entrenched much like the Germans and the Brits during the Battle of the Somme. There is no real excuse for it, and your calling Ken out for it is good and defines you well, but realize, it’s only going to continue.
Posted by: Big Country at July 30, 2008 06:37 PM (niydV)
It's high comedy to me.
The tragedy is that Pam's probably convinced that she won the argument.
Posted by: C-C-G at July 30, 2008 06:50 PM (vCJA9)
Anyways, your point with the de-Nazification quote, or rather my point was that it was way over the line. Not only did it compare the Republican party to Nazis, it threatened trials for nonexistent crimes. Capital crimes, by the way; they were hung until dead.
There is absolutely no world in which that would be acceptable speech. While I wouldn't ban Soros, or his speech, it does make him a scumbag.
Posted by: Vercingetorix at July 30, 2008 06:59 PM (V/FgT)
Yeah, she declared victory and boarded the Great Winnebago for the promised Obamatopia.
Posted by: Vercingetorix at July 30, 2008 07:09 PM (V/FgT)
How did this "licentiousness" cause the rise of the Nazis? And what respected historian has cited this "licentiousness" as a cause?
BC: . Goebbels who was a failed Chicken Rancher and looked nothing like the “Master Race” he so vociferously proposed as the “perfect German.”
Goebbels was not a failed chicken farmer. He'd been a novelist. You're obviously confusing him with Heinrich Himmler.
BC: YOU state that it’s the ‘right wingers’ who keep “trying to recast the Nazis”…
Yes, right wingers are trying to sell the notion that HItler was a leftist.
Do you know what the word "recast" means here?
Posted by: Pamela Troy at July 30, 2008 10:39 PM (0+zSf)
Posted by: laura at July 30, 2008 10:43 PM (hReHK)
Posted by: laura at July 30, 2008 10:48 PM (hReHK)
And even if someone is frustrated, I don't see how name-calling helps.
Sorry if I sounded sanctimonious, though.
Posted by: laura at July 30, 2008 11:00 PM (hReHK)
Somehow, I don’t see ANYTHING of what I’ve posted today as such. I’m sure you don’t. Like many people who use ad hominems, you don’t recognize them for what they are. In your case, they’ve tended to be assumptions about me based on little more than the fact that I describe myself as a “liberal.”
This for instance:
“Realize that the 60s was a drug induced stupidity-fest of false rebellion and out and out cowardice, realize you need to contribute to the world in a more tangible fashion (thank a troop for their service and volunteer at a nursing home) and above all, get over youself... liberalism is all about selfishness...this is why you act the way you do when confronted with reality, why its all about "me me me" 24-7-365... a little less about you you you and more about "we're all in this together, whether you or I like it or not."
So let’s see now, in this little chunk of words you imply that I’m not contributing to the world that it’s all about ‘me, me, me,’ that I’m selfish, that I’m cowardly. Looks like an ad hominem to me, especially when you then go on to refer to “the likes of you and your ilk,” and call me a “sick, self-loathing leftist,”
All of this renders your claim that “ad-hominem attacks are not my way” pretty comic.
BC: Never having claimed to be an expert on liberals, nor wanting to.
You claimed “I know liberals to the Nth degree.” Sorry, but you don’t, and you’ve made that obvious.
BC: I consider modern day liberalism as preached by you and yours to be “neo-socialist damned near communist Democratic Daily KoS type of liberalism.”
Modern day liberalism is even further away from Communism than the liberalism of most of the twentieth century. And do point out how you imagine my liberalism qualifies as “neo-socialist” or “damned near communist.”
BC: You have been and are by demonstration been wholly unwilling to “have political or social views favoring reform and progress (as long as it’s a Democrat in charge) Been “ tolerant of change; not bound by authoritarianism, orthodoxy, or tradition” in that you throw the KKK and the Third Reich out there with gleeful abandon when it come to close verbal combat
You’re not even making sense here. My bringing up the KKK and the Third Reich in a discussion involving domestic terrorism and dehumanizing language somehow means that I’m unwilling to “have political or social views favoring reform and progress (as long as it’s a Democrat in charge)” am intolerant of change and am bound by orthodoxy and tradition?
How for heavens sake?
Posted by: Pamela Troy at July 30, 2008 11:12 PM (0+zSf)
OK… I love doing this. Is Dagmar Herzog good enough? Her tome, ‘Sex after Fascism:
Memory and Morality in Twentieth-Century Germany’ discusses the loose sexuality and its lead in to Nazism. A extract quote stating: “…if we set sex aside as irrelevant, we lose opportunities to comprehend the extraordinary appeal of Nazism both to those Germans who sought the restoration of conservative family values and to those who benefited from Nazism's loosening of conventional mores.”
Hows that? And for the record: Dagmar Herzog is Professor of History at the Graduate Center, City University of New York. She is the author of Intimacy and Exclusion: Religious Politics in Pre-Revolutionary Baden (Princeton). The book that I quote from was an Honorable Mention in 2005 for the Bonnie and Vern L. Bullough Award, an award given by Foundation for the Scientific Study of Sexuality. Somehow, I don’t think that even you’ll be able to spin that one up as a “Den O’ Conservatives.’
“Goebbels was not a failed chicken farmer. He'd been a novelist. You're obviously confusing him with Heinrich Himmler.”
Dead on. As far as my own failure vis-avis Goebbels/Himmler… sorry to have mixed that one up. Exhaustion is rarely a fair excuse for poor academia. Point to you
Lastly, “YOU state that it’s the ‘right wingers’ who keep “trying to recast the Nazis”…
Yes, right wingers are trying to sell the notion that HItler was a leftist.
Do you know what the word "recast" means here?”
Why yes, yes I do. And in this case what you are selling is crap. The OFFICIAL NAME for them Hitler Loving Goons was the Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei (NSDAP - commonly known as the Nazi Party) Do we need a translation? Why yes, I think we do… word for word…
National Socialist German Workers Party
Now does that sound remotely Republican or Conservative to you?
Nope. Me either.
It’s people like you who bring out the worst in people like me. My ability to face this properly leaves me tired every time you post because, like some bad joke, you keep cropping up and changing the direction to the angle that suites you and your belief system. Not bad for a former grunt huh?
Set and Match. Whaddya think Bob?
Posted by: Big Country at July 30, 2008 11:16 PM (9dP7o)
No, I’m simply asking you to clarify your points and expand on them. We’re not “dancing.” It’s called “discussion.”
BC: Is Dagmar Herzog good enough? Her tome, ‘Sex after Fascism: Memory and Morality in Twentieth-Century Germany’ discusses the loose sexuality and its lead in to Nazism. A extract quote stating: “…if we set sex aside as irrelevant, we lose opportunities to comprehend the extraordinary appeal of Nazism both to those Germans who sought the restoration of conservative family values and to those who benefited from Nazism's loosening of conventional mores.”
Herzog is saying here that Nazism appealed to some extent both to the “licentious” and the sexually conservative. That’s hardly the same as saying that the Weimar Republic’s sexual licentiousness actually led to Nazism.
BC: National Socialist German Workers Party
And are you familiar with why the word “socialist” was included in the party name? Can you explain why the Nazis were regarded by all their contemporaries on both the left and the right as right-wingers?
Do you consider Saddam Hussein’s “Republican Guard” to have been a branch of the GOP? Does the term “Republican Guard” sound Muslim or fascist to you?
BC: It’s people like you who bring out the worst in people like me.
Don’t blame me for your own ad hominems in this exchange.
Posted by: Pamela Troy at July 30, 2008 11:41 PM (0+zSf)
S’all Good. I’ve been on a 12 hour shift and sometimes forget that seeing the Target for What it is and What it’s Worth are two entirely different thing. PT had crafted a response that now, on reflection, isn’t even worth carrying the fight over. Simply put: Bob’s Issue tonight/yesterday was dealing with the continual propaganda-oriented spin on this to paint what now appears to be a sad and deranged individual with a broader brush that dips any and all conservatives as potential terrorists… or something to that effect… the brain is getting hazy at this point…
This is the bare facts: Some friggin lunatic with a 12 Gauge goes into a church and kills two people. He spouts off >something
That’s where it gets us, to the point where Pam can’t raise or speak an argument without injecting some ‘crime’ or other into the mix, as well as alluding to Nazis, the KKK and other such dreadful and hate filled groups that a normal person would recoil in horror to being linked to. And each time I get accused of engaging in Ad Hominem attacks…. Please, because you don’t like what I have to say doesn’t mean I’m attacking you. If I was attacking you, you’d know it, and Bob would ban me… I’m NOT what one would call a ‘shirker’ nor do I tolerate B.S. when I’ve invested so much in my support of the Soldiers, Sailors, Marines, Coasties and even the Zoomies to have someone try to define me and my beliefs system as “irrelevant and outmoded.” Even ‘barbaric.’ Has been bandied about, but I for one prefer to be a barbarian… it’s kept me alive for a long time.
I have personally experienced “anti-war” protestors, and I have experienced people making blanket statements about Abu Ghraib, Guantanamo Bay and Iraq when they just have NO CLUE as to what it’s really like there. THAT’S when my knickers get in a bunch. And just to really throw some gas on the fire, I used to work in Baghdad for CACI as Facilities and Operations. I also was in Guantanamo Bay working in the Operations Center as well. I’ve spent the past 4 years now, (well, 4 and some change) living in the Middle East experiencing up close and personal the “Religion of Peace” and seeing what it has to offer. I make only this: We’re in this together, whether we like it or not. America is unique, and no amount of Liberal Vitriol can erase that. Best realize that when push comes to shove, as Ben Franklin said “We must hang together, gentlemen...else, we shall most assuredly hang separately.”
A pleasure blogging with you!
Posted by: Big Country at July 30, 2008 11:42 PM (9dP7o)
This is the bare facts: Some friggin lunatic with a 12 Gauge goes into a church and kills two people. He spouts off >something< (no word yet but it had to be pretty profane) as he’s committing these crimes. He then makes statements derogatory of Liberals, Gay and who the hell knows what else. The Mass Media, by it’s own admittance a left leaning institution, then goes into “Anti-Conservative Spin Mode” and then piles on speaking in the newest and greatest Politically Correct buzzwords and attempt to link this crime to Talk Radio and the like. Then on being calle don it, the ‘usual suspects’ attempt to justify it with old excuses, older crimes, and shame us into believing they and only they are right.
Posted by: Big Country at July 30, 2008 11:46 PM (9dP7o)
Posted by: Big Country at July 30, 2008 11:47 PM (9dP7o)
LOL! So I guess your confident assertion "game, set and match" was just a little premature, eh?
Posted by: Pamela Troy at July 30, 2008 11:57 PM (0+zSf)
I answered.
"Is Dagmar Herzog good enough? Her tome, ‘Sex after Fascism: Memory and Morality in Twentieth-Century Germany’ discusses the loose sexuality and its lead in to Nazism. A extract quote stating: “…if we set sex aside as irrelevant, we lose opportunities to comprehend the extraordinary appeal of Nazism both to those Germans who sought the restoration of conservative family values and to those who benefited from Nazism's loosening of conventional mores.”
You then change the angle and say "Herzog is saying here that Nazism appealed to some extent both to the “licentious” and the sexually conservative. That’s hardly the same as saying that the Weimar Republic’s sexual licentiousness actually led to Nazism."
I never knew how finely a hair can be cut.
Guess I'll just have to chalk this one up to go to bed... No matter how well thought out or how good the angle or research that's performed, "you keep changing the music." (literary license was allowed I thought and a rather good metaphor to this 'discussion' despite you thinking otherwise.)
No matter what I say or do, you're going to attack it from yet again another angle to justify your belief system. Just realize that it does become tiresome. And so on that note: I'm off to bed.
BTW: I do have to thank you however, it's been fun doing the research and forcing my otherwise unused cortex in an academic and scholarly fashion. Far too often do I not get to flex the grey matter.
Posted by: Big Country at July 31, 2008 12:00 AM (9dP7o)
Pam, I'm tired. If you want to score this one up because I'm tired, knock yourself out. Feel free to, but I'll say this... thusfar you have provided no decent proof, either written or otherwise that can show me any differently.
I've pulled some pretty good rabbits outta the old Hat, but hey, we all know who won this particular match.
Gnite and Best Regards...
Posted by: Big Country at July 31, 2008 12:06 AM (9dP7o)
Does anyone recall that it arose because people were comparing body counts -- liberal or conservative death tolls?! Doesn't that seem ridiculous, in hindsight?!
Posted by: Laura at July 31, 2008 12:29 AM (hReHK)
Posted by: Laura at July 31, 2008 12:35 AM (hReHK)
Neither are the neocons Nazis nor the Marines (of which I have been for nine years) SS. To suggest so is moronic, but also evil, because it trivializes true evil. Even Pvt England, the worst of the Abu Ghraib bunch, isn't on the same playing field as the Nazis. To suggest so, equates panty-helmets and naked pyramids with Zyklon-B chambers and human furnaces. That is an evil quite well and above anything the US is capable of.
While I can agree with the sentiment that wrong-doing deserves punishment, I won't cut that man any slack for equating the US with Nazis, just as I wouldn't go with lunatics that equate sexual harassment with rape. There is no common ground there.
Posted by: Vercingetorix at July 31, 2008 12:42 AM (QaVQ6)
'The United States is now recognizing the errors it had made in Iraq, he said, adding, “To what extent it recognizes the mistake will determine its future.” Mr. Soros said Turkey and Japan were still hurt by a reluctance to admit to dark parts of their history, and contrasted that reluctance to Germany’s rejection of its Nazi-era past.
“America needs to follow the policies it has introduced in Germany,” he said. “We have to go through a certain de-Nazification process.”'
I think he's actually saying that we helped Germany find ways to come back from a very terrible point in their history, and we could use those same methods to bring our country back to reconciliation. Whether I think the Bush administration was wrong or you think it was right, if we all come together to examine things objectively, decide that we do or do not need trials, investigations, whatever methods to sort things out and start fresh, that is preferable to trying to ignore that bad things may or may not have happened. I don't think he's saying we're as bad as or bad in the same ways as the Japanese, the Turks, or the Germans. But rather that there are ways to handle difficult parts of a country's history, and openness is preferable to shame and hiding.
I'm not trying to defend Soros as a person, but I'm just not sure he's making the actual comparison you're seeing. Sorry if I'm beating a dead horse.
Posted by: laura at July 31, 2008 12:59 AM (hReHK)
The economy was as centrally-planned as the political system (and had to be, the country hit war-time posture almost immediately upon Hitler's election). You do not have to have pure-phenotype communism to have socialism. Again, even though Sweden has corporations, CEOs, stocks and dividends, it can be honestly called a socialist country, because it is.
I'm comfortable letting this conversation, rousing as it has been, peter out. If you believe that German or Italian fascists idolized Adam Smith and the American model of capitalism, well, good for you. But their system was socialist to the core (as in Mussolini's "Everything within the state, nothing outside," which is as pure a socialist credo as I can imagine).
Posted by: Vercingetorix at July 31, 2008 12:59 AM (QaVQ6)
Posted by: Vercingetorix at July 31, 2008 01:01 AM (QaVQ6)
Yep. An effort to make the Republicans viable again in the South after over a century of political violence against them.
And who started turning the tide in the South? Who sent troops to Little Rock? Eisenhower. Eisenhower was a Republican. So what kind of people from the South would flock to the Republican banner after something like that (sending Federal troops to the South to enforce equality re-opened old wounds from the Civil War Reconstruction period)?
I wasn't born yesterday.
Posted by: M. Simon at July 31, 2008 01:07 AM (OANt1)
And are you familiar with why the word “socialist” was included in the party name? Can you explain why the Nazis were regarded by all their contemporaries on both the left and the right as right-wingers?
I guess you haven't read Hayek "The Road To Serfdom" published in 1944.
Posted by: M. Simon at July 31, 2008 01:19 AM (OANt1)
David was at a low point in his life. not many real friends if any. he had cut himself off from what little family he had left. he was bipolar and i think maybe a few other mental problems as well. we talked about it once or 2ice but he wouldnt get treatment or go to a doctor for anything, maybe that would have prevented this event from happening if he had. he got a lot of money from his parents death, but went through it all like water and i am sure that added to the depression.
i feel sorry for david, and for the people at the church that will be forever hurt from this "thing" he has done.
funny, reading the news this morning i saw that someone was talking about a class action law suit against Rush and Savage, and Bill whatever. the hard right conservatives that david was reading books from when he did this. I am sorry but in some ways david adkisson is right. we are going to hell in a fast and quick way. he just found his quicker than most. I wish he had been killed in the church. it would be easier for many people and over a lot quicker in many respects.
"get out while you still can"
Posted by: slick willy at July 31, 2008 04:56 AM (me9TN)
I've not been the one in this conversation who has consistently framed this in terms of a "game."
Posted by: Pamela Troy at July 31, 2008 09:01 AM (0+zSf)
I answered.
"Is Dagmar Herzog good enough? Her tome, ‘Sex after Fascism: Memory and Morality in Twentieth-Century Germany’ discusses the loose sexuality and its lead in to Nazism. A extract quote stating: “…if we set sex aside as irrelevant, we lose opportunities to comprehend the extraordinary appeal of Nazism both to those Germans who sought the restoration of conservative family values and to those who benefited from Nazism's loosening of conventional mores.”
I'm sorry, but your answer does not support your claim. It's not "changing the angle" to point this out.
Posted by: Pamela Troy at July 31, 2008 09:05 AM (0+zSf)
Well, unfortunately, one of the current right-wing mantras being trotted out these days is what I call "The Numbers Game." Its premise is, "Leftists in the 20th Century killed more people than right-wingers - ergo, leftists are more evil and we must use any means necessary to stop them." It's part of what drives the current effort to recast the Nazis (and in this very thread, the Klan and even John Wilkes Booth!) as liberals or leftists.
It's used to justify horrific crimes committed by right wing regimes.
For instance, in the minds of those who play the numbers game, Pinochet's mass murders are understandable, even necessary, because leftists are so murderous and evil. In the long run, the reasoning goes, Pinochet SAVED lives by crowding thousands of Chilean citizens into a football stadium and torturing and killing them. Because even though Allende had not treated his opponents that way, and even though there's no strong evidence he was planning to, Allende was a leftist and therefore, inherently violent and murderous. It is an article of faith that he would have killed more than Pinochet, no matter how strongly the evidence points the other way.
Of course, give them a few years, and these same right wingers will figure out a way to claim that PINOCHET was a leftist...
Posted by: Pamela Troy at July 31, 2008 09:15 AM (0+zSf)
Or, maybe, just maybe, Pam, whenever a lightweight like Pinochet is trotted out by a leftist, we like to point out the dead silence around the Left's perennial favorite mass murderers. We don't even have to get into the Khmer Rouge or Stalinist Russia: Castro, the blossom in the hair of every San Fran hippie, is quite comparable to the worst of Pinochet, but still wins the Left's praise.
Who's playing games, Pam? Own Lenin. Own Stalin. Own Mao. Everywhere your political ideals have been tried, it has failed horrifically. And you never learn.
Posted by: Vercingetorix at July 31, 2008 10:32 AM (V/FgT)
Or, maybe, just maybe, Pam, whenever a lightweight like Pinochet is trotted out by a leftist, we like to point out the dead silence around the Left's perennial favorite mass murderers. We don't even have to get into the Khmer Rouge or Stalinist Russia: Castro, the blossom in the hair of every San Fran hippie, is quite comparable to the worst of Pinochet, but still wins the Left's praise.
Who's playing games, Pam? Own Lenin. Own Stalin. Own Mao. Everywhere your political ideals have been tried, it has failed horrifically. And you never learn.
Posted by: Vercingetorix at July 31, 2008 10:37 AM (V/FgT)
It WAS entertaining for a while. What really gets to me is that those who, like Pammy, claim "Bush = Hitler" and other such tripe and her feeble attempts to bring the other 'bastard children' of 'hate speech' to the table... well now, if it REALLY was that Bush = Hitler, doncha think that we wouldn't have to deal with people on the left, seeing that they'd all be killed out of hand, IF that in fact was what we on the right were planning?
Again, circular logic and changing of tunes, lifting of 'bars' and stereotyping by utilizing 'buzzwords' all hallmarks of the patetic left.
Posted by: Big Country at July 31, 2008 10:57 AM (niydV)
The Left, whenever given free reign, has failed epically. Deal with it, Pam.
Posted by: Vercingetorix at July 31, 2008 11:13 AM (V/FgT)
She actually believes that her own side is Simon-pure and Simon-simple. No bile from any noted lefty will convince her otherwise.
Me, I'm not under any such blinders. O'Reilly is a blowhard and a bit of a clown. Hannity is the boring man's Limbaugh. And Coulter is a one-note provacateur who's not half as smart as she thinks she is.
That said, O'Reilly's line about San Francisco was not an advocation of violence, merely an illustration on the responsibilities of defense, and what should lie in wait for those determined to undermine it. A thought experiment, if you will, though perhaps a touch "intemperate."
Compare this to Markos "Screw them" Moulitas, who decided that defense contractors in Iraq deserved to be murdered by a mob and have their bodies burned for television. Same situation, except the big Kos wasn't speaking hypothetically.
Now if Pam is willing to say "Moulitas is an asshole, and everyone who agrees with that sentiment is an asshole," then I'll be willing to believe she's intellectually honest. 'Till then, she's no different from the clown who pulled the same routine at Ace of Spades: she has the news cycle, and she is playing it.
Posted by: Andrew the Noisy at July 31, 2008 12:40 PM (cntKs)
Yep, she's self-referential. To her, all racism is on the right, therefore all racists are rightists. I bet she believes Stalin to be actually a rightist.
True communism never having been tried out and all. Disgusting.
Posted by: Vercingetorix at July 31, 2008 01:51 PM (V/FgT)
Posted by: Big Country at July 31, 2008 01:56 PM (niydV)
Nor was it a socialist system. Nor was it mistaken by most observers for a socialist system. Using your definition of "socialism" most of 19th century Europe, including Prussia, were left-wing socialist countries. I suspect the Prussians would have objected strongly to such a drastically revised definition of their system.
Why do you think the overwhelming majority of contemporary observers put the Nazis on the right side of the political spectrum rather than the left. Journalists, travel writers, diarists, letter writers, pundits, and historians, both conservative and liberal, described the Nazis as right wing.
Was it all some sort of dastardly liberal conspiracy?
Posted by: Pamela Troy at July 31, 2008 02:05 PM (0+zSf)
I think the fact that some folk are willing to say "Man, I'd like to kick the ass of the next fargin' hippie I see," is the sort of thing that sets Pam and her ilk off. Now, you aren't going to do it, BC, because you know consequences lie in wait, and those consequences are good thing to the extent that they restrain people from ass-kickings. Although I agree that sometimes a good ass-kicking, so long as it doesn't leave lasting damage, is a healthy thing.
There's been way too much fury and not enough sobriety on both sides of the aisle for as long as I've been an observer. For the Left, its the rage of sins past and the persistent refusal of reality to conform to their wishes. For the Right, it's the reaction to the above and the fear of things getting worse, along with the thrill at the ability to say what they want to a national audience after being marginalized from the 60's to the 90's.
Coulter gets 50% of her audience from people still excited about this last (the other 50% are lefties looking to get their adrenaline fix). That doesn't make anything she says worth paying attention to, and I've never seen a single quote from her that wasn't specifically designed to provoke people. Unimpressive in the extreme.
That said, the exchange with the baseball bats, I'm pretty sure was meant to be taken as wearied snark, not serious advocacy. YMMV.
Posted by: Andrew the Noisy at July 31, 2008 02:10 PM (cntKs)
Posted by: Big Country at July 31, 2008 02:11 PM (niydV)
Yep Dead on (pardon the pun). And yeah, it’s the whole “Kumbay-ya” Leftist “we’re such good friends and we can hug your cares away” attitude that the majority of the Far Reaching Left has that shows both an incredibly sheltered and naïve view of the world. I WISH I could have such a pleasant “wrapped in a snuggy blanket/no harm will come to me” kind of world.
Unfortunately, it ain’t like that, and by looking at Pam’s newest self serving dialectic, you can see she either passes over or bypasses any and all sharp edges. When I stated that a Liberal was a conservative in waiting who hadn’t been mugged, she then claimed to have been mugged. Not that I doubt her, and not knowing her, I feel poorly for her, but in the respect that HAVING been mugged, what has she done to prevent it in the future? Does she carry a gun? Answer: Nope… She can’t… she lives in San Francisco, which doesn’t offer that option. To her, that’s fine, but to me, I’d rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6, (or 8 actually I’m a big guy) but in her Leftist State of Mind and Leftist Run Town, she doesn’t HAVE that option to defend herself. To me, it’s a mindscramble (to utilize the polite term)
And I also agree… The popularity of the conservative radio movement is that they have FINALLY gotten the bully pulpit, and will be damned if they are giving it up… lets face it… we’re talking real $$$ here. Myself, I don’t get to listen to ANY of the talking heads on the radio. I get Al-Jazeera. And if you think Limbaugh Savage and Coulter are hardcore, you ought to listen in on THAT station in English. That in itself is another issue that can be dealt with later… Vocal Denunciation of (unproven) Right Wing violence and those who perpetrate it in Pam’s World, yet her silence for the subjugation and enslavement of Islamic women, forced circumcision, and honor killings for some supposed ‘family dishonor,’ ALL of which are current events WITHIN THE BORDERS OF THE UNITED STATES RIGHT NOW.
Posted by: Big Country at July 31, 2008 02:26 PM (niydV)
No, the Southern Strategy wasn't an effort to end southern violence against Republicans. It was an effort by the GOP to cash in on the racism of the Dixiecrats who were upset over the Democratic Party's support for black Civil Rights.
M. Simon: And who started turning the tide in the South?
Who sent troops to Little Rock? Eisenhower. Eisenhower was a Republican. So what kind of people from the South would flock to the Republican banner after something like that (sending Federal troops to the South to enforce equality re-opened old wounds from the Civil War Reconstruction period)?
There was no need for democrats who supported black civil right at that time to "flock to the Republican banner." The Democratic party was split between FDR style liberal Democrats and the Dixiecrats -- who, were not, by any stretch of the imagination, liberal.
Actual defection to the Republican party began with Nixon in the 1970s, though even before then Southern Democrats were turning out in droves to vote for Republicans. I can remember that most of our neighbors in Louisiana were going for Goldwater in the '64 election, and in '68 those we knew who weren't voting for Nixon went for Wallace -- an independent. By 1972 the Southern Strategy had been so effective that the south was quite solidly for Nixon.
M. Simon: I wasn't born yesterday.
But you're plainly not old enough to remember the era of the southern strategy. I am. I vas dere, sharlie, and I can tell you that the Republican party's appeal to the racism of the Dixiecrats was wildly successful.
Posted by: Pamela Troy at July 31, 2008 02:31 PM (0+zSf)
In other words, there are many different Socialisms, espoused by many different people for different reasons. If you want to be ideologically pure, then all of these must fall by the wayside as false socialisms, unless you're a Communist. But that begs the question of whether you have to be a Communist to be a Socialist, and its just a bad scene all around.
In point of fact, I think 19th-Century Prussian socialism laid the seed for National Socialism. Certainly Bismarck was a feudalist, but he could see that a state that provides a certain level of economic security could command much loyalty, and grow powerful apparati that would serve it well in times of need. Bismarck was trying to head off workers-party socialism, as Hitler was trying to head of the Reds, but just as the German Socialists voted the Kaiser all the War funds he needed in 1914, so many German Reds turned black when they saw the writing on the wall.
The point is not that Nazis were socialists that Progressive Democrats of the present day have any affinity for; but that the socialism they practised was more than mere feigning. It was war-socialism, blood-and-iron socialism, mystic-race-grandeur socialism, which yes, served State and Party more than it served the workers (See also, Soviet Union). Or, if you prefer, National Socialism.
In a nutshell, Socialism contains multitudes, and some of them goose-step.
Posted by: Andrew the Noisy at July 31, 2008 02:32 PM (cntKs)
Like Duranty, perhaps? You really aren't helping your case here.
...diarists, letter writers
What in the name of Almighty Satan's left nipple is this?
...pundits, and historians, both conservative and liberal, described the Nazis as right wing.
This of course is an appeal to authority. Cite the authorities or go home. Nor do I really care whether everyone believed or everyone knows, etc. Doesn't make everyone correct.
And as M.Simon noted above, not everyone agreed. Moreover Hayek carries more water with me than any hundreds of local fishwrap delivery services.
Posted by: Vercingetorix at July 31, 2008 02:34 PM (V/FgT)
M. Simon: I guess you haven't read Hayek "The Road To Serfdom" published in 1944.
I'm familiar with Hayek. Sorry, but one single book does not make a consensus, and the consensus by observers on both the right and the left was that the Nazis were right wingers.
How do you account for this? Was it all some leftist plot? And again, are you familiar with why the word "socialist" was added to the Nazi party name?
Posted by: Pamela Troy at July 31, 2008 02:35 PM (0+zSf)
V: Or, maybe, just maybe, Pam, whenever a lightweight like Pinochet is trotted out by a leftist,
A LIGHTWEIGHT?
What does that mean? Pincochet tortured and murdered thousands. Think the elderly people still wondering what mass grave their daughter or son is buried in, still agonizing over the suffering their children probably went through, consider Pinochet to have been a "lightweight" when it came to mayhem? Think Victor Jara's widow thought so after collecting her husband's maimed, bullet-ridden body?
Who else is a "lightweight?" How high does the stack of bodies have to get? And once they reach a certain level, will someone on the right blow a whistle and say, "now we're even! We don't need to kill any more leftists." Is that how you think mass murder works?
V: we like to point out the dead silence around the Left's perennial favorite mass murderers.
Ah yes, more rightwing, "I get all my news from Fox, Talk Radio, and the right-wing blogosphere" naivete about liberals. In the course of my life, I've only met one leftist who didn't revile Stalin and consider the term "Stalinist" a gross insult, and that was a single rather wild-eyed Communist whom the other Communists considered an embarrassment.
V: Castro, the blossom in the hair of every San Fran hippie..
Another case in point. I've lived here for twenty years. I've not met any liberals, or for that matter leftists here, who were fans of Castro. Quite the contrary.
If there is a dearth of indignant liberal essays denouncing Pol Pot or Stalin, etc., it's because there's also a great dearth of essays defending these thugs. Do tell, Vercingetorix, how many pieces can you find in prominent liberal magazines talking about how badly misunderstood poor ol' Pol Pot was? Or how, really, it was NECESSARY for Stalin to wipe out countless dissidents?
Own Stalin? Own Lenin? Own Pol Pot? Own Castro? The left already has. Back during the bad old days of the USSR, when that chapter on Soviet torture from Solzhenitsyn's THE GULAG ARCHIPELAGO was published in Harpers, there was no outcry from the liberal press saying that it was all lies, or that the stress positions, sexual humiliation and sleep deprivation Solzhenitsyn described wasn't torture. Quite possibly you can find, if you look hard enough, some leftist who said or published such things, but they were drowned out in a sea of anger and revulsion from both sides of the political equation.
No, it's right wingers who are writing pieces about what a great guy poor ol' Pinochet was, right wingers who are denying that the very tactics the right was denouncing back when the GULAG came out qualify as torture at all.
Posted by: Pamela Troy at July 31, 2008 02:59 PM (0+zSf)
Posted by: Pamela at July 31, 2008 03:06 PM (0+zSf)
Like Duranty, perhaps? You really aren't helping your case here.
How does the career of Stalin apologist Walter Duranty weaken my case?
Pt: diarists, letter writers
V: What in the name of Almighty Satan's left nipple is this?
A diarist, V, is someone who keeps a diary. They were these squarish, papery things that people used before blogs. Quite a few famous diaries came out of that era aside from Ann Frank's -- Victor Klemperer, William Shirer, Hannah Senesh, Emmanuel Ringelblum, Josef Goebbels...
A letter writer is kind of like a diarist. They write emails, except the emails are on square pieces of paper that get physically sent to recipients in things called "envelopes." In the days before email, people wrote quite a lot of them, often commenting on the politics of the day.
Hope this clears things up for you.
V: This of course is an appeal to authority. Cite the authorities or go home.
No, it's not an "appeal to authority." It's an appeal to common usage. The language in question comes from pretty much every historian of the Third Reich, like William Shirer (who saw its rise from his post in Berlin as a journalist) Hugh Trevor-Roper, Peter Padfield, and Martin Gilbert, commentators on the Third Reich in the years after the war, like Milton Meyer, and contemporary editors and journalists -- like Henry Luce.
Posted by: Pamela Troy at July 31, 2008 03:23 PM (0+zSf)
Or is there something about that prospect that frightens you?
Posted by: Pamela Troy at July 31, 2008 03:29 PM (0+zSf)
I mean, I'm working hard over here. You could send some of that snark my way.
Like, for example, when I say that your "consensus" includes chaps like Duranty who were more than willing to parrot any line coming out of Moscow, which is, I believe, where the meme about Nazis being right-wing emerged. In June of 1941, IIRC.
Posted by: Andrew the Noisy at July 31, 2008 03:36 PM (cntKs)
Pam, you neither frighten nor intimidate, however, I will bequeath you the title of “Biggest Burr in my Butt” that I’ve had in a long time. I offer sincere condolences in my commentary vis-à-vis your mugging, and yet you reply without substance, nor with anything that could be remotely construed as a well thought out argument, within the exception of utilizing terminology in a crass attempt to get me to drop to your level of “Snark-itude” and yes, you are trying to provoke me. It’s transparent. The comment “Or is there something about that prospect that frightens you?” could be construed, based on your knowledge of me (freely admitted to and given mind you) as an attempt to “push my buttons.”
No Pam, inasmuch as it may disappoint you and sadden you that your somewhat lame attempt failed, know that the only thing I fear in truth is that we as a people leave a poorer world for my Children and others children to inherit. In that you don’t appear to have stated that you have children, perhaps I’m ‘yelling down an empty well’ and you just wouldn’t understand that, now could you?
After all, it’s the Leftists of this world who, for all their care ‘for the children’ who have introduced abortion, population control measures, the ‘Green Movements’, eliminated DDT (thereby causing untold deaths of millions of children to malaria) and yet it’s always done ”for the children”
Please stop wasting our time and go back the Daily Kos.
Posted by: Big Country at July 31, 2008 04:05 PM (niydV)
No, but as of a few minutes ago, I am not home and I dislike posting lengthy messages from here.
I've already noted your message and will be sending you a reply either later this evening or tomorrow morning. Sorry it can't be sooner, but it looks like I'm going to have a long day.
Posted by: Pamela Troy at July 31, 2008 04:11 PM (pnlG4)
Great! I don't care. I don't know - or care to know, frankly - anyone you do.
But don't try to put this garbage over on me that the Left hates Castro and Guevara. Oh, please. That's beneath contemptible.
Quite possibly you can find, if you look hard enough, some leftist who said or published such things, but they were drowned out in a sea of anger and revulsion from both sides of the political equation.
That's revisionism, pure and simple. But, okay, back up that statement. If there was so much revulsion and anger over the Soviet Union, it should be quite easy, though so far you've been extraordinarily lazy.
Posted by: Vercingetorix at July 31, 2008 04:12 PM (V/FgT)
Posted by: Andrew the Noisy at July 31, 2008 04:43 PM (cntKs)
NA: "Like, for example, when I say that your "consensus" includes chaps like Duranty who were more than willing to parrot any line coming out of Moscow, which is, I believe, where the meme about Nazis being right-wing emerged. In June of 1941, IIRC."
Duranty was no doubt also part of that consensus that states the sun rises in the east and sets in the west. That does not make the sun rising in the east and setting in the west some sort of Stalinist meme. And this notion that the Nazis being described as "right wing" was a "meme" that "emerged in June of 1941" is absolute nonsense. Where in the world did you hear this? The Nazis had been recognized as right wing and widely referred to as such long before the second world war broke out:
"There will be 607 Deputies in the new Reichstag, largest, in German history. Simplifying the returns, it means that the Nazis and other Right Wing Parties will have a total of 277 seats." -- From Time Magazine (August 8, 1932)
Believing that the Nazis were leftist, requires you to believe that almost the entire body of work written about the Nazis before, during, and since the Third Reich is a massive left-wing conspiracy to make the right look bad. Is it really your premise that Henry Luce was a leftiist propagandist? Is pretty much every historian who has written about the Third Reich?
The fact that Marx refers disparagingly in the third section of his manifesto to what he plainly considers to have been pseudo socialist movements, most of which took place primarily on paper does not transform the Nazis into a leftist rather than a right-wing movement. On the contrary, if you read that section of Marx, it’s obvious Marx viewed “Feudal Socialism” and “Conservative Socialism” to have ultimately been in the service of the ruling classes and not genuine “socialism” at all.
Posted by: Pamela Troy at August 01, 2008 09:23 AM (0+zSf)
Even if you accept Shirer's view that much of the "Workers" part of the NazionalSozialismus Deutche Arbeiten Partei was calculated to bring in the votes, even if you accept that the industrialists profited much more than the workers and farmers from the Nazi Regime, their remained enough welfare-state, command-economy elements to make it more than pretend.
Here's Shirer, pg. 365:
"Finally, the take-home pay of the German worker shrank. Besides stiff income taxes, compulsory contributions to sickness, unemployment and disability insurance, and Labor Front dues, the manual worker -- like everyone else in Nazi Germany -- was constantly pressured to make increasingly large gifts to an assortment of Nazi charities, the chief of which was Winterhilfe (Winter Relief)."
You can't tell me that this nickel-and-diming does not bear striking resemblance to the cradle-to-grave welfare states of modern Europe, which the Democrats would like to implement in this country. Now a modern Democrat, having absorbed enough Keynes and Friedman to know that take-home pay is a good thing for the economy, would not desire to set up so Spartan a regime. But that just means a modern Democrat is less left-wing than a Nazi.
Shirer goes on to write that failure to contribute sufficiently to Winterhilfe could result in dismissal by order of a labor court for "conduct hostile to the community of the people...to be most strongly condemned." If you cannot see the Soviet-ness of this practice, this language, you're making an effort not to see it.
And besides, how well did the workers and peasants profit from Lenin? Sure, the Soviets had no official capitalists, but the state industrial concerns were always given the greater care (to the point of starving the individual workers if enough was not produced). Trotsky called this "state capitalism", which would be a fitting description for both the Third Reich and Fascist Italy.
So Hitler reneged on destroyed "interest slavery." And Lenin reneged on "Peace, Bread, and Land." Ultimately, the Bolsheviks were about serving the ruling class -- themselves-- above the interests of the workers. Are we now to pretend that the USSR was right-wing?
I think perhaps you underestimate the degree to which socialism, the corporate state, the command economy, was deemed by the sizable majority of the intelligensia of Western Civilization in the first three-quarters of the 20th century to be the inevitable wave of the future. The Nazis and Fascists were called "right-wing" because they appealed to militaristic national mysticism, to blood and iron, not because of their economic policies, under which, even in the perverted form that they took in the Third Reich, were well to the left of FDR or even the British Labour party. That the historians of the 40's and 50's called them righties is not, in itself, proof of the assertion. Widely-held views are not immune from being misconcieved.
You're quite right: from Marx's point of view, bourgeois socialism was false and incomplete. That doesn't make it not to the left of free-market capitalism. As a bourgeois socialist (Democrat), you're free to argue that the Nazis were not pure socialists. But then, neither are you. And Nazi economics resembles Communist economics far more than it resembles Democrat economics. A right-wing socialist is still to the left of a left-wing capitalist.
Posted by: Andrew the Noisy at August 01, 2008 11:03 AM (cntKs)
Or it could mean that the entire body of those writers was farther to the left then today (which was almost certainly the case). No conspiracy needed.
Posted by: Vercingetorix at August 01, 2008 12:12 PM (V/FgT)
V, the most damning excerpt from the Solzhenitsyn's book, the chapter on torture that describes things like sleep deprivation, stress positions, and sexual humiliation as torture, was printed in July, 1974 in HARPER'S MAGAZINE -- a left-wing publication that had also published Seymour Hersh's account of the My Lai Massacre. I assure you the framing of Solzheistyn's account was not sympathetic to the Soviet Union, and I invite you to visit a library, take a look at that issue of HARPERS in the bound periodicals, and see for yourself.
Posted by: Pamela Troy at August 01, 2008 10:29 PM (0+zSf)
Wow. Really? And what did they do for the fifty years before that?
Hint: It involved knee-pads and Bianca.
Color me very, very unimpressed. Especially because they didn't learn from their mistakes (socialism is/was/will always be a disaster, communism is/was/will always be impossible, much less desirable even in theory).
Posted by: Vercingetorix at August 02, 2008 02:12 AM (QaVQ6)
I'll await your rebuttal on my previous note.
Posted by: Andrew the Noisy at August 02, 2008 10:04 AM (cntKs)
I think there would be no contest. No poliical philosophy has a monopoly on violence, or an immunity to attracting lunatics, but I do think that the conservate worldview is more amenable to eliminationism than liberalism is.
Posted by: smendler at August 02, 2008 10:20 AM (MqIG/)
AN: Pamela, I did read the section (it's the fourth, not the third), and you haven't contradicted anything I said. If you want to call it right-wing socialism, false socialism, whatever you wish, that still puts it to the left of even the modern-day Democratic party, to say nothing of the GOP.
Only if you completely alter the conception of the political "right" and "left" in place before, during and after the Third Reich. Quite aside from the fact that Hitler loathed socialism and made that plain (which is why people like Emil Kirdorf, Fritz Thyssen, and Henry Ford were so crazy about him) the Nazi party's stance on Communism, race, art, women, etc. puts them quite firmly on the right side of the aisle.
Do you consider Henry Ford to have been a socialist, or someone in sympathy with socialism?
Citing the German Winterhilfe Program as an example of dyed in the wool "socialism" is ridiculous. It shifts the definition of "socialism" from the state controlling the means of production to "any government aid program using tax dollars." Using this definition, anything other than a completely laissez-faire economic system qualifies as "socialist." You're drastically expanding the definition of "socialist" in a false and self-serving manner.
I find it ironic that I've been called on, as a liberal, to own the crimes of leftists like Stalin, Pol Pot, Castro, etc., while this revisionist effort is going on by right wingers to avoid "owning" Hitler.
AN: , and you haven't contradicted anything I said.
Argument does not consist entirely of "contradiction." No, I have not contradicted the quotes you offered from Marx in that I have not denied he wrote a section of the Manifesto on what he plainly considered to be false socialism. What I have said is that these quotes from Marx do not back up your revisionist premise that the Nazis were leftists.
The quote I posted from TIME does contradict your bizarre claim that the premise of the Nazis being Right Wing started with Duranty in about 1941.
I asked you where you heard such a thing, and really, I'd like to know. Where did you hear this or read it?
Posted by: Pamela Troy at August 02, 2008 12:05 PM (0+zSf)
V: Or it could mean that the entire body of those writers was farther to the left then today (which was almost certainly the case). No conspiracy needed.
Then you need to own up to what you and other right wingers are attempting to do -- that is, you are engaging in drastic historical revisionism.
Posted by: Pamela Troy at August 02, 2008 12:08 PM (0+zSf)
I mean, let's say the victims of the Klan outweigh those of the Weather Underground, and the Black Panthers, and the other left-wing revolutionary groups (personally, I doubt it, since we're only talking about the 1950's on, and most of the Klan's lynchings were from the 1880's to the 1920's, but who knows?)
What does that prove? That the Klan are a right-wing terror group with a high level of lethality? Sure, and they're no friends of anybody associated with modern Conservatism.
[Ah, but the Southern Strategy, the Southern Strategy! Please. Nixon won no higher share of the vote in 1968 than he did in 1960. The difference was that Wallace and the Dixiecrats had enough support to give the states to Nixon.
And why did those Dixiecrats start voting Republican from 1972 on? Was it because Republicans became segregationists? No. It's because after 1968, segregation was dead, and they knew it. They could either vote for racial preferences for minorities (affirmative action, busing, et. al) or they could vote for race-neutrality, which had been and remains the Republican philosophy since 1865.]
After fifteen to twenty years of the Right Wing Noise Machine, you take one guy's actions and make him the poster boy for "eliminationism". Three, if you count McVeigh and the Olympic bomber. All of whom have been, you know, completely lionized on the right, as have the handful of abortion bombers.
If that's eliminationism, we're the sorriest fascists since Franco. Now, do you want to tone down the rhetoric back off of eleven so we can all agree that shooting a bunch of people in a church is a bad thing?
Posted by: Andrew the Noisy at August 02, 2008 12:15 PM (cntKs)
Sure. The Chinese Communists killed and tortured almost as many (300-2000 killed) as Pammy's favorite dictator, Pinochet, (3200 killed) during just Tiananmen Square alone. Add in the Cultural Revolution, that's another million dead, tortured, starved, the North Korea, and Cuba, we still have the Gulag, Cambodia, Vietnam, Eastern Europe, and don't forget the Baathists! (Their motto? "Unity, Freedom, Socialism") Don't forget Zimbabwe or Burma!
Seriously, whatcha got, kid?
Posted by: Vercingetorix at August 02, 2008 12:36 PM (iTDJo)
PT:...as printed in July, 1974 in HARPER'S MAGAZINE
V: Wow. Really? And what did they do for the fifty years before that? Hint: It involved knee-pads and Bianca.
You need to actually read some history and literature rather than relying on the Internet and talk radio for your information about liberals. New York Post editor Joseph Wechsler was a liberal anti-Communist who was quite vocal in his criticism of the Soviet Union and deeply concerned about Soviet espionage. Edward Michael Harrington was not just a liberal, but a socialist anti-Communist, who once observed that hearing a roll call of Stalin's murder victims: "like hearing the roll call of revolutionary martyrs who were bone of our bone, flesh of our flesh."
Sinclair Lewis' IT CAN'T HAPPEN HERE, published in 1935, offers in its hero, Doremus Jessup a good portrait of the average liberal's attitude towards the Soviet Union at that time:
"Democracy--here and in Britain and France, it hasn't been so universal a sniveling slavery as Naziism in Germany, such an imagination-hating, pharisaic materialism as Russia.."
"When Doremus, back in the 1920's, had advocated the recognition of Russia, Fort Beulah had fretted that he was turning out-and-out Communist. He, who understood himself abnormally well, knew that far from being a left-wing radical, he was at most a mild, rather indolent and somewhat sentimental Liberal..."
"He was, and he knew it, a small-town bourgeois Intellectual. Russia forbade everything that made his toil worth enduring: privacy, the right to think and to criticize as he freakishly pleased. To have his mind policed by peasants in uniform--rather than that he would live in an Alaska cabin, with beans and a hundred books and a new pair of pants every three years."
"Lenin and Trotzky who gave to the illiterate Russian peasants the privileges of punching a time clock and of being as learned, gay, and dignified as the factory hands in Detroit; and Lenin's man, Borodin, who extended this boon to China."
Posted by: Pamela Troy at August 02, 2008 12:41 PM (0+zSf)
Yep. But Pammy still won't drop her Rush/Coulter/Bush/KKK/the-right-is-responsible!!1!1!!-schtick, so we'll go around in circles for another week.
Posted by: Vercingetorix at August 02, 2008 12:44 PM (iTDJo)
AN: Acknowledging Solzhenitsyn (and the Secret Speech twenty years prior) was an honorable thing for the left to do, given the decades they had spent calling the right fools for believing that anything bad happened in the USSR.
No. I've already posted to Vercingetorix examples of prominent liberals and even leftists who strongly opposed the Soviet Union. I've cited James Wechsler, Edward Michael Harrington, and various quotes from Sinclair Lewis' 1935 novel, IT CAN'T HAPPEN HERE, which reflect the average liberal's attitude towards Stalin's Russia at that time. I dislike repeating myself, but if you insist, I'll repost these in a direct reply to you.
The attitude you are describing is a description of the more die-hard members of the American Communist Party -- an organization not popular with liberals and leftists in most of 20th century America.
Posted by: Pamela Troy at August 02, 2008 12:46 PM (0+zSf)
S: No poliical philosophy has a monopoly on violence, or an immunity to attracting lunatics, but I do think that the conservate worldview is more amenable to eliminationism than liberalism is.
Only inasmuch as conservatives are more likely to get away with eliminationist attitudes and actions than leftists. Conservatism tends to appeal to people who already wield a great deal of power, like those in law enforcement and finance. As a result, these institutions will wink at actions from right-wing groups that would prompt investigations if the same actions were taken by leftists. To attract the attention of the FBI and the police, right-wingers typically have to start actually stockpiling weapons and threatening their neighbors. Frequently all leftists have had to do to prompt investigation is open schools or write books and screenplays.
Stalin's Russia and Pol Pot's Cambodia indicate that if the tables are turned and leftists seize the apparatus of powerful institutions like law enforcement and government, they are just as capable of committing heinous crimes.
I don't like this business of toting up bodies and using the resulting sum to assign a greater or lesser level of immorality to the perps. There is, in my opinion, no significant moral difference between a government that succeeds in terrifying dissenters into silence by murdering three thousand, and a government that is still not certain it's succeeded even after killing a hundred thousand.
The question is not how high the bodies are actually stacked, but whether dissenters in that society end up with a well-founded fear of being murdered, tortured or imprisoned for merely voicing their beliefs.
Posted by: Pamela Troy at August 02, 2008 12:56 PM (0+zSf)
V:Yep. But Pammy still won't drop her Rush/Coulter/Bush/KKK/the-right-is-responsible!!1!1!!-schtick, so we'll go around in circles for another week.
Gosh, isn't it awful of me to post all those icky ol' facts here?
Posted by: Pamela Troy at August 02, 2008 01:08 PM (0+zSf)
For every Orwell, there's a May Day parade of thousands, a Paris riot, forty warmed-over Maoists handing out pamphlets, dozens of journalists and professors whitewashing the unthinkable.
Again, I'm not impressed. But, let's try this experiment. You, in San Fran or wherever, try organizing your leftist friends against Cuba and North Korea, and I'll believe the 'outrage' of the left against the worst of communism. Send us pictures.
Posted by: Vercingetorix at August 02, 2008 01:21 PM (iTDJo)
V: For every Orwell, there's a May Day parade of thousands,
You're assuming that every person who takes part in a May Day Parade is a Stalin Apologist?
Are you even familiar with the origins of May Day as a celebration of labor? it didn't start in the Soviet Union.
V: a Paris riot,
Every Paris riot involves Stalinists?
You plainly haven't thought this through.
V: forty warmed-over Maoists handing out pamphlets,
Maoists hardly qualify as "liberals" and they are a tiny minority among American leftists.
V: dozens of journalists and professors whitewashing the unthinkable.
In this country journalists are more likely to do that "whitewashing" when it comes to right-wing regimes than with left-wing regimes.
Posted by: Pamela Troy at August 02, 2008 01:46 PM (0+zSf)
Maoists, Stalinists, Trotskyists, Trotskites, Liberals, leftists, luddites, libertines, whatever, if you add up all these tiny minorities very soon you have a pretty sizable majority.
Posted by: Vercingetorix at August 02, 2008 02:25 PM (iTDJo)
Heaven forfend I alter conceptions. That could lead to dancing.
You don't seem to be listening. Hitler can say all he wants about how much he loathed "socialism," what matters is what he did when he was in power. And what he did to the economy of Germany, though hardly in league with Proudhon or Marx, is still more socialist than anybody still around, save the Green Party and other fringe players.
And I don't know why you're bringing up art, and culture, and whatnot, because I already said that on these matters the Nazis were indeed right-wing, though perhaps not as much as you might think. The Nazis wanted to preserve traditional modes of cultural expression and mores, but they also wanted to shift them to their new and exciting ethos, and had a level of contempt for "bourgeois morality" that would do any member of the Internationale proud.
And the Nazis dislike of Communists is completely irrelevant to the question of whether they qualify as socialists. Communists hated and killed other socialists with great regularity. Bolsheviks and Mensheviks despised one another, as did "right" Socialist Revolutionaries and "left" Socialist Revolutionaries. Lenin exterminated the Mensheviks and SR's with extreme prejudice. Are they "right-wing" now?
For that matter, you have yourself stated that you and every other good leftie in SF hates Stalin, Mao, and Castro. Does that make YOU right-wing?
20th century socialists slaughtered each other with the same purblind blinkered passion as 16th-17th century Christians. The fact that Pope Paul III did not consider Martin Luther a Christian did not mean he wasn't one. So, with that in mind, how do you know that when Hitler said "I hate socialists" he didn't mean "I hate those other kinds of socialists, who have failed to uncover and absorb the truth about race."
"Citing the German Winterhilfe Program as an example of dyed in the wool "socialism" is ridiculous. It shifts the definition of "socialism" from the state controlling the means of production to "any government aid program using tax dollars." Using this definition, anything other than a completely laissez-faire economic system qualifies as "socialist." You're drastically expanding the definition of "socialist" in a false and self-serving manner."
Forgive me, but the system of using government aid, paid for by taxes, leading to expansion of bureaucracy and government control over greater and greater aspects of society, to make them just, this idea came from who, exactly? There's a word for them. I believe back in the day they were called Progressives, yes? And they took their cue and influence from 19th century Radicals and Marxists, isn't that the accepted story? Are you actually trying to persuade me that the Progressives were right-wing, and completely non-socialist in their thinking and goals?
Once again, socialism contains a vast multitude of schemes, projects, and understandings of social justice. The most extreme of these were the Communists. Others existed. Marx noted them, and held them in contempt because they failed to go far enough. If you wish to insist that this means, ipso facto, that they were not socialists, then you must be prepared to admit that Martin Luther was not a Christian, that Shi'ites are not Muslims, that Zen are not Buddhists, etc.
You may sneer at a compulsory aid program, failure to contribute to which could result in dismissal by a "labor court", as a mere charity, but the expanse of Winterhilfe combined with the high-tax burden of the Third Reich, the protection against loss of land by farmers, the mammoth public programs designed to provide Germans with job security, is still an achievement above and beyond what the major left-wing party of the United States has been able to accomplish or even seriously propose.
Yet, I am to take seriously the notion that it is I who is attempting to change the definition, and not you who is attempting to narrow it for your own purposes.
Which brings us to:
"The quote I posted from TIME does contradict your bizarre claim that the premise of the Nazis being Right Wing started with Duranty in about 1941.
I asked you where you heard such a thing, and really, I'd like to know. Where did you hear this or read it?"
First of all, Time Magazine saying the Nazis were right-wing is not clear about what they were right-wing on. As I have said repeatedley, The Nazis were right-wing on cultural issues, left on economic ones.
As to June 1941, I was first told this when young, by my grandfather, who grew up in brooklyn before and during the war. My great-grandfather was an out-and-out socialist and thus, grandfather remembered the attitudes of the lefties and reds, who before Barbarossa would permit no one to speak ill of Hitler and condemned the British and French for "starting" the war (Stalin made a clear statement to this effect at the October 1939 Party Congress), and changed their minds overnight when the Germans invaded. He told me how sudden it all was, and how vociferously they argued the opposite of what they had said before.
Sure, anecdotal. But Stalin toasted Hitler as "This great-hearted man," at the final session of the Nazi-Soviet Pact negotiations, and in his book "1941: Hitler and Stalin" John Lukacs makes it plain that there was more than short-term advantage which brought the totalitarians together. They shared a contempt for the West, and for bourgeois liberalism. When the pact was signed, the Comintern forced the Socialists of Britain and France to become anti-war. After Barbarossa, suddenly Fascism was the most Right-Wing of Right-Wing, the Final Degenerate Stage of Capitalism, and all that rot. And again, the Western Intelligensia made every move required of them to take all this in.
Orwell noted a similar phenomenon in his essay "England, Your England": "Many Intellectuals of the Left were flabbily pacifist until 1935, shrieked for war with Germany during 1935-39, and cooled off when the war started." It is to be noted that 1935-39 was when Litvinov was actively seeking a military alliance with Britain and France. He was replaced by Molotov in 1939, because Molotov believed in an agreement with Germany.
More Orwell: "All through the critical years the left-wingers were chipping away at English morale, trying to spread an outlook that was sometimes squashily pacifist, sometimes violently pro-Russian, but always anti-English." But then, since he is so critical, Orwell must be a right-winger.
So yes, others may have called the Nazis "right-wing" in the 1930's, which may not mean what you think it means. But the placement of the Nazis as the final phase of capitalism has less to do with reality and more to do with the tactical rhetoric of the U.S.S.R. who were nothing if not willing to throw opinions down the memory hole when it suited them.
Posted by: Andrew the Noisy at August 02, 2008 02:30 PM (cntKs)
The Nazi ethos was also pagan, not traditional Christian. Even on culture, the Nazis were radicals.
Posted by: Vercingetorix at August 02, 2008 03:01 PM (N8eC4)
Cobalt has an atomic weight of 58.93, there are 4 quarts to a gallon, an unladen swallow cannot carry a coconut from Africa to England, and the human head weighs ten pounds. All facts. All about as pointless and tangential as any 'facts' you've put on the table.
The issues are/were:
Is Rush/Ann Coulter responsible in any way for this tragedy? No.
Are there left wing figures as incendiary as Rush/Coulter/Savage? Yes.
And then we discussed the utter failure of the Left to govern and their genocides. Which, even if we magnanimously ceded the Nazis as the right's dirt - and I will certainly not be that generous, then the Left's record is nothing short of disastrous.
Posted by: Vercingetorix at August 02, 2008 03:46 PM (N8eC4)
AN: Heaven forfend I alter conceptions. That could lead to dancing.
The term is not "dancing." It's "revisionism."
A: You don't seem to be listening. Hitler can say all he wants about how much he loathed "socialism," what matters is what he did when he was in power.
And very shortly after taking power, he closed down the trade unions and arrested their leaders. Communists and socialists were rounded up and carted off to concentration camps.
AN: And I don't know why you're bringing up art, and culture, and whatnot, because I already said that on these matters the Nazis were indeed right-wing, though perhaps not as much as you might think. The Nazis wanted to preserve traditional modes of cultural expression and mores, but they also wanted to shift them to their new and exciting ethos, and had a level of contempt for "bourgeois morality" that would do any member of the Internationale proud.
"These matters" cover a tremendous amount of German life. Libraries were purged of "objectionable books," which included “The works of traitors, emigrants and authors from foreign countries who believe they can attack and denigrate the new German,” “The literature of Marxism, Communism and Bolshevism,” “Pacifist literature,” and “Literature with liberal, democratic tendencies and attitudes, and writing supporting the Weimar Republic.”
And the notorious "degenerate art exhibit" was a classic example of the Nazi's war on modernism. The fact that they were willing to tolerate extra-marital sex in the cause of turning "racially acceptable" German women into baby-making machines does not transform them into leftists.
AN: the Nazis dislike of Communists is completely irrelevant to the question of whether they qualify as socialists. Communists hated and killed other socialists with great regularity. Bolsheviks and Mensheviks despised one another, as did "right" Socialist Revolutionaries and "left" Socialist Revolutionaries. Lenin exterminated the Mensheviks and SR's with extreme prejudice. Are they "right-wing" now?
No. Unlike The Third Reich, the Soviets eliminated private property and turned ownership of industry and factories over to the state. Hitler, who loved entrepreneurs, had no interest in doing such a thing, which is why families like the Krupps maintained control of their factories. When he was asked whether he planned for the state to take over German industry replied in the negative. "Do you think I am so senseless as to destroy Germany's economy? Only if people should fail to act in the interests of the nation then -- and only then -- would the State intervene."
AN: For that matter, you have yourself stated that you and every other good leftie in SF hates Stalin, Mao, and Castro. Does that make YOU right-wing?
Only if, at the same time, we advocated turning the clock back on sexual, racial and religious equality, suppressed avant garde art and literature, and promoted a social darwinist approach to dealing with the poor and the disabled in which gaining any kind of aid involved first "proving" that you were racially and/or morally "fit" to be given such aid.
AN: how do you know that when Hitler said "I hate socialists" he didn't mean "I hate those other kinds of socialists, who have failed to uncover and absorb the truth about race."
Because Hitler's actions following his rise to power indicate his hatred of socialists.
AN: Forgive me, but the system of using government aid, paid for by taxes, leading to expansion of bureaucracy and government control over greater and greater aspects of society, to make them just, this idea came from who, exactly?
Probably someone predating the Romans.
AN: There's a word for them. I believe back in the day they were called Progressives, yes? And they took their cue and influence from 19th century Radicals and Marxists, isn't that the accepted story?
No. Are you unfamiliar with the concept of state control over public granaries and grain distribution that dates back to the ancient world?
AN: Yet, I am to take seriously the notion that it is I who is attempting to change the definition, and not you who is attempting to narrow it for your own purposes.
Yes. A reading of history bears me out.
PT: The quote I posted from TIME does contradict your bizarre claim that the premise of the Nazis being Right Wing started with Duranty in about 1941. I asked you where you heard such a thing, and really, I'd like to know. Where did you hear this or read it?"
AN: First of all, Time Magazine saying the Nazis were right-wing is not clear about what they were right-wing on.
The excerpt I posted plainly has Time referring to the Nazis as a whole as being on the right.
AN: As to June 1941, I was first told this when young, by my grandfather, who grew up in brooklyn before and during the war.
Your grandfather was mistaken.
AN: So yes, others may have called the Nazis "right-wing" in the 1930's, which may not mean what you think it means.
Most people called the Nazis "right wing" in the 1930s.
AN: The Nazi ethos was also pagan, not traditional Christian. Even on culture, the Nazis were radicals.
That does not make them leftists.
Posted by: Pamela Troy at August 02, 2008 04:52 PM (0+zSf)
Heh, that's a utilitarian argument, not an ideological argument. As Germany was among the most industrialized nations in the world, it's also a good one: ain't broke, don't fix it.
Hugo Chavez is a socialist and he hasn't nationalized everything either. And of course, Hitler left the option to nationalize wide open. In other words, again, it's a utilitarian argument, not an ideological one.
Because Hitler's actions following his rise to power indicate his hatred of socialists.
As Andy said, Stalin, Mao, and Pol Pot killed, imprisoned and tortured more socialists than anyone. They aren't exactly right-wing.
Just because they hate each other, doesn't make them polar opposites. Socialists never needed much encouragement to slaughter each other.
Most people called the Nazis "right wing" in the 1930s.
They were wrong.
That does not make them leftists.
Doesn't make them conservative or right-wing, either.
Posted by: Vercingetorix at August 02, 2008 05:25 PM (N8eC4)
Only if, at the same time, we advocated turning the clock back on sexual, racial and religious equality (the communists, again, were not peaches here either), suppressed avant garde art and literature (maybe they had good enough taste to avoid stuff like this?), and promoted a social darwinist approach to dealing with the poor and the disabled in which gaining any kind of aid involved first "proving" that you were racially and/or morally "fit" to be given such aid.(for your sake, I would leave eugenics out of this, it is very bad for the Left).
At least there is some substance there. But nothing about economics and the political systems which define left and right.
Of course, by this measure, if there were two "dictatorships of the proletariat," in the Stalinist phrasing, one could be right wing if it didn't provide affirmative action and welfare, and didn't subsidize bad art.
You're absolutely right, Pam, by that measure, the Nazis certainly are not left wing.
It's only the complete control of the economy, their social religion, unfettered power of the government, radical restructuring of German society, views of fundamental rights (speech, religion, press, property, etc) as conditional rather than absolute that does it.
Gee, who else supports unlimited government, penalties for unpopular speech, confiscation of property for public "use", and radical restructuring of society?
It's just there at the tip of my tongue, hmmm, some sort of movement so I should perhaps use the royal "The," but what could it be? The...Capitalists? No. Is it The Evangelicals? Hmmm, no, nothing in the Bible about "Thou shalt form a union between man and man, deli clerk and cashier..."
I don't know what's left that fits that description. There's nothing left. Oh, I got it! THE LEFT. That's who believes all that stuff.
Posted by: Vercingetorix at August 02, 2008 06:31 PM (N8eC4)
PT: Maoists hardly qualify as "liberals" and they are a tiny minority among American leftists.
V: Maoists, Stalinists, Trotskyists, Trotskites, Liberals, leftists, luddites, libertines, whatever, if you add up all these tiny minorities very soon you have a pretty sizable majority.
You're not even making sense any more. Have you completely lost track of your own arguments?
Posted by: Pamela Troy at August 02, 2008 09:40 PM (0+zSf)
PT: When he was asked whether he planned for the state to take over German industry replied in the negative. "Do you think I am so senseless as to destroy Germany's economy? Only if people should fail to act in the interests of the nation then -- and only then -- would the State intervene."
V: that's a utilitarian argument, not an ideological argument.
It's certainly not a socialist argument.
B> As Andy said, Stalin, Mao, and Pol Pot killed, imprisoned and tortured more socialists than anyone. They aren't exactly right-wing.
They were advocates of Marxism. Hitler was not.
PT: Most people called the Nazis "right wing" in the 1930s.
V: They were wrong.
Suurrre, Vercingetorix. All those people who actually lived in that time, understood its politics and its nuances, and all their children who followed, were wrong. You and others here, who can't tell Goebbels from Himmler and who don't know enough about American political history to discuss liberalism with any credibility, know more than THEY do about it.
Why should I take your word over the word of almost every contemporary observer and historian of Nazism?
PT: That does not make them leftists.
V: Doesn't make them conservative or right-wing, either.
No, what makes the Nazis right wing is their reactionary policies towards race, women, art, and literature, along with their virulent anti-Communism and their hatred of socialists and liberals.
Posted by: Pamela Troy at August 02, 2008 09:54 PM (0+zSf)
PT: Only if, at the same time, we advocated turning the clock back on sexual, racial and religious equality
V: (the communists, again, were not peaches here either),
Never said they were.
PT: suppressed avant garde art and literature
V: maybe they had good enough taste to avoid stuff like this?
No doubt you would have loved the House of German Art.
PT: and promoted a social darwinist approach to dealing with the poor and the disabled in which gaining any kind of aid involved first "proving" that you were racially and/or morally "fit" to be given such aid.
V: for your sake, I would leave eugenics out of this, it is very bad for the Left).
I doubt you know much more about the Eugenics movement than what you picked up skimming the right-wing blogs.
Posted by: Pamela Troy at August 02, 2008 10:15 PM (0+zSf)
Six days. Six days we've been talking. Six days before actually made your own point instead of appealing to others to do it for you.
That's actually a strong point, too. See, that’s how people talk. They say one thing and someone either disagrees, agrees, or asks for clarification.
Now we can go over the Nazi policies regarding race and women and art, literature, their anti-communism and hatred of socialists and liberals. Which are all weak markers, by the way, as communists also hated other socialists and liberals, and vice versa, for one point, and art and literature in general suffers from the scalding acid bath of totalitarianism. Show me a single novel from North Korea, Maoist China or Soviet Russia, or name a single painter; if you can name just one artist in the past fifty years, you’re ahead of the game. Even so, there are no masters or masterpieces.
On race and women, this is the gem of your argument and all things being equal, it is the most persuasive. Leave aside the failings of the Communists, the eugenics movement, the general racism of even the most ‘liberal’ observers at that time, surely the Nazis took race and sexism to an extreme? Maybe so.
But is racism/sexism markers of the right? That would make sexual and racial equality the province of the left, which, if you’ll forgive my skepticism, is pretty self-serving. Nor is it accurate, either in results of policies nor even in intention.
They were advocates of Marxism. Hitler was not.
Neither was FDR as he rolled out the New Deal, Johnson with his Great Society, the advocates of socialized medicine, etc, and it would be difficult to describe those programs as anything other than socialist planks. Being an open advocate (or closed, or a virulent hater of) of Marx is hardly necessary nor sufficient to be a socialist; it matters what you do.
Nor was Marx the sole intellectual – the only individual in history – who advocated a social policy of collectivism and powerful states over weak individuals. The Nazis could and did disregard a foundation of Marx for other founding authors.
It's certainly not a socialist argument.
A socialist can make no other kind? That must make a socialist marriage the most extraordinary torture...
Posted by: Vercingetorix at August 03, 2008 02:49 PM (iTDJo)
PT No, what makes the Nazis right wing is their reactionary policies towards race, women, art, and literature, along with their virulent anti-Communism and their hatred of socialists and liberals.
v: Six days. Six days we've been talking. Six days before actually made your own point instead of appealing to others to do it for you.
I first brought up this issue five days ago, when I observed:
“In what manner was Hitler a leftist? He rolled back pretty much every liberal reform of the Weimar Republic, turned the clock back on the emancipation of women, burned avant-garde literature and art…”
V: communists also hated other socialists and liberals, and vice versa, for one
Not for being “communists” or for being adherents of Karl Marx.
V: art and literature in general suffers from the scalding acid bath of totalitarianism.
Yep. Extremists on both the right and the left tend to distrust innovations in art. It's liberals who generally support the avant-garde.
Given the comment you made here, you apparently see eye to eye with totalitarians on avant garde art. Are you a communist? A socialist?
V: Show me a single novel from North Korea, Maoist China or Soviet Russia, or name a single painter; if you can name just one artist in the past fifty years, you’re ahead of the game. Even so, there are no masters or masterpieces.
Well, I don’t know much about Asian art or literature, whether from Communist or non-Communist countries, but for the record, there’s Soviet Artist Mikhail Anikushin, and Soviet novelists Fazil Iskander, Yuri Olesha, and Danil Granin.
I’m not sure how you would define “masters” or “masterpieces,” but Yuri Olesha is seen by many as a remarkable satirist, and Stalinslaw Lem is widely considered an important science fiction writer.
V: But is racism/sexism markers of the right? That would make sexual and racial equality the province of the left, which, if you’ll forgive my skepticism, is pretty self-serving.
Sexual and racial equality HAS historically been the province of the left. The American Communist party, for all its faults, was agitating for racial equality in this country well before most other organized groups in the 20th century. For all the American Communist Party’s faults, Communist union organizers in this country tended to be emphatic about unions admitting not just white workers but black workers – often a serious obstacle when they attempted to organize in the south. And while there may have been some exceptions, the white Americans who traveled south to work for black civil rights in the sixties were almost entirely liberal to leftist in their outlook.
PT: They were advocates of Marxism. Hitler was not.
V: Neither was FDR as he rolled out the New Deal, Johnson with his Great Society, the advocates of socialized medicine, etc, and it would be difficult to describe those programs as anything other than socialist planks.
Neither FDR nor Johnson were socialists. They were liberals. Neither FDR nor Johnson advocated the complete takeover of industry by the state.
Posted by: Pamela Troy at August 03, 2008 05:39 PM (0+zSf)
Silly Pamela, can't you see how these are TOTALLY THE SAME THING? Aw, you got sooo "paddled"! Your use of "reason," "logic" and "proof" just makes me more afraid of your violent liberal ways! Please stop killing children (unless they're gay or Muslim --that's fine then.)
Posted by: Sarah at August 04, 2008 09:34 PM (elFNi)
On the alternate point, that lefties never, never ever ever celebrate or encourage murder or destruction of their political rivals. Heh. Here's Ted Rall's greatest hit: “Only idiots signed up; only idiots died. Back home, the average I.Q. soared.” And there's more, much more, to rebut that idiot argument.
On the latter point, Nazis left or right? Pamela is unpersuasive, to say the least.
But this thread is officially toast. If you ladies want to keep on talking, go here.
Posted by: Vercingetorix at August 04, 2008 10:27 PM (iTDJo)
As for the fallback position, that liberals never ever urge hate and celebrate violence, here's Ted Rall: “Only idiots signed up; only idiots died. Back home, the average I.Q. soared.” Among other 'inconsiderate' remarks.
But this thread is toast. If you want to discuss more right wing hate, feel free to discuss the racist attempt by eliminationist rightwingers comparing Barack Obama to Paris Hilton.
Posted by: Vercingetorix at August 04, 2008 10:48 PM (iTDJo)
"The term is not "dancing." It's "revisionism.""
Yes, teacher. Sorry teacher. And revisionism is bad...when righties try to do it, right?
"And very shortly after taking power, he closed down the trade unions and arrested their leaders. Communists and socialists were rounded up and carted off to concentration camps."
Which is pretty well identical to what Lenin did when he took power, except that the only Communists he carted off to concentration camps were those who had committed the crime of descent, whether inadvertent or not. Stalin, of course, increased the scale of this, but not the main features.
""These matters" cover a tremendous amount of German life. Libraries were purged of "objectionable books," which included “The works of traitors, emigrants and authors from foreign countries who believe they can attack and denigrate the new German,” “The literature of Marxism, Communism and Bolshevism,” “Pacifist literature,” and “Literature with liberal, democratic tendencies and attitudes, and writing supporting the Weimar Republic.”
And the notorious "degenerate art exhibit" was a classic example of the Nazi's war on modernism. The fact that they were willing to tolerate extra-marital sex in the cause of turning "racially acceptable" German women into baby-making machines does not transform them into leftists."
Uh-huh. And no one ever heard the word "degenerate" in the Soviet Union. No one ever censored books because they supported democracy or liberal thought in the Soviet Union. No one ever punished anyone else for advocating or even suggesting an interpretation of Marxism at odds with the Politburo's current take in the Soviet Union. Women in the Soviet Union were never encouraged by the various carrots and sticks of the state to make good, strong, healthy Socialist Babies of the Future!
I can do this all month. So why not try arguing about features of the Third Reich that were markedly different from the USSR? I admit it's not an easy task.
"No. Unlike The Third Reich, the Soviets eliminated private property and turned ownership of industry and factories over to the state. Hitler, who loved entrepreneurs, had no interest in doing such a thing, which is why families like the Krupps maintained control of their factories. When he was asked whether he planned for the state to take over German industry replied in the negative. "Do you think I am so senseless as to destroy Germany's economy? Only if people should fail to act in the interests of the nation then -- and only then -- would the State intervene.""
Wait, you found it...good for you. This is indeed, the main difference between Fascism and Communism, and the main reason that Fascists did not like Communists, and that Communists did not like Fascists. So what, exactly, does this mean? Among other things, it means that the Third Reich's relationship with the major corporations of Germany was not unlike the relationship America's major coporations had with the adminstration of Woodrow Wilson, the darling of the Progressive Left in his day, during World War One. It means that the Krupps and the Junkers could keep their money, as long as they built what the Reich said was okay to build. To make a point that you have yet to respond to, this is far more radical and socialist than the modern-day Democrats dare to propose.
It has nothing to do, however, with whether the Nazis are leftist or socialists unless one accepts that everyone who does not advocate the total elimination of private property -- in other words, everyone who is not a Communist -- is a socialist or leftist. If that is your argument, we can return to the discussion of whether Martin Luther was a Christian.
"Only if, at the same time, we advocated turning the clock back on sexual, racial and religious equality, suppressed avant garde art and literature, and promoted a social darwinist approach to dealing with the poor and the disabled in which gaining any kind of aid involved first "proving" that you were racially and/or morally "fit" to be given such aid."
Gee, I've never done any of those things. I guess I'm not a right-winger. Who knew?
But emotional flailing about a host of bogies not germaine to the
point under discussion is always fun. I look forward to you next outburst.
But let's try again.
You said "Nazis hated Communists, therefore they are not leftists or socialists."
I said "Communists hated other Socialists, and Other Socialists hated Communists. You also claimed to hate various Communist dictators. Are you right-wing?"
You said "Robert Bork's America is a land where blacks have to sit at segregated lunch counters, where women have to go to back-alley abortionists...."
Wait, sorry. That was Ted Kennedy. I got confused.
Here's the question: Can one dislike Communism and still be a leftist or socialist? If yes, will you admit that the socialism or leftism of Nazis cannot be argued on the basis of whether or not they hated and hurt Communists? If not, why not?
"Because Hitler's actions following his rise to power indicate his hatred of socialists."
See point above.
"Probably someone predating the Romans."
Niiiiiice dodge. And this unknown thinker, whose beliefs were noted by Aristotle, would he be a friend of the conservative elements in his society?
"No. Are you unfamiliar with the concept of state control over public granaries and grain distribution that dates back to the ancient world?"
I sure am. The Chinese loved them, when the dynasties could be bothered to keep them in good repair. The Egyptians too, when the pharoahs could keep the nomarchs in line.
In Rome, interestingly enough, their growth had to do with the agitation of the Populares, who were, shall we say, NOT the best pals of the patrician and knight classes, and who were the darlings of Gaius Marius and Julius Caeser. The latter was very much interested in striking a third way between the competing classes, under which the Roman state would oversee, forcefully when necessary and without excessive regard to precedent and tradition, the interests of both to maintain the greatness of ROME. Sound familiar?
"Yes. A reading of history bears me out."
Your reading does. My reading doesn't. Hence the discussion.
(This is your cue for an ad hominem. I know you know what that means).
"The excerpt I posted plainly has Time referring to the Nazis as a whole as being on the right."
It does? Really? What in the text indicates that?
So the fact that the article dates from the time when socialism was at its intellectual high point, when all the cool kids knew and expected as a matter of course that everybody, from Mussolini to FDR to Stalin to Chamberlain to yes, Hitler, would be bringing in command economy elements to each of their states is not relevant to a discussion about what exactly they meant when they said "right-wing".
Did I just see a leftie argue that societal and historical circumstances have no bearing on the reading of a text? It's a funny old world.
"Your grandfather was mistaken."
Ah. Just like that, then? End of discussion? Should I assume that you were around in early 1940's Brooklyn or that you have copies of the CPUSA - New York Section's meeting minutes to back your claim up?
"AN: So yes, others may have called the Nazis "right-wing" in the 1930's, which may not mean what you think it means.
Most people called the Nazis "right wing" in the 1930s."
Which may not mean what you think it means. Back to that discussion of the politics of the 1930's and the High Tide of Socialism. You know, so we can delve more deeply.
"AN: The Nazi ethos was also pagan, not traditional Christian. Even on culture, the Nazis were radicals.
That does not make them leftists."
That was Vercingetorix, not me, but I'll respond anyway:
Actually, Kato, that's exactly what it means. "Radical" means desiring to bring about immediate, forward-looking change in a society, and breaking with the past.
The term for those seeking to "turn back the clock" is Reactionary. Thus, to suggest that one can be a "Radical" and not a "Leftist", when by definition Radical is the extreme of Leftism, is to engage in (Wait for it, Wait for it) Revisionism.
Have a pleasant day.
Posted by: Andrew the Noisy at August 05, 2008 01:54 PM (cntKs)
"the only Communists he carted off to concentration camps were those who had committed the crime of descent, whether inadvertent or not."
that should be "dissent," not "descent." My bad.
Posted by: Andrew the Noisy at August 05, 2008 01:56 PM (cntKs)
Posted by: Pamela Troy at August 05, 2008 02:21 PM (0+zSf)
That's sweet, but you don't have to make me breakfast, princess!
Anyways, life is too short. If you want to make your vacuous pleadings to Andrew, be my guest.
Posted by: Vercingetorix at August 05, 2008 05:10 PM (V/FgT)
July 28, 2008
Small Miracles
There was a shooting at the Tennessee Valley Unitarian Universalist Church in Knoxville, TN yesterday during a children's play. Two people have died, and seven more are recovering from injuries that resulted when an unemployed man with a long history of verbal hostility against Christians targeted this specific congregation because he also hated liberals and gays.
While many in the political blogosphere will no doubt focus on the fact that Adkisson said he hated liberals and gays, the fact of the matter is that the didn't target a gay club or local progressive political groups, he specifically targeted a church. He did so after expressing beliefs to neighbors in the past that he had an abiding anger against Christianity, an anger that appears rooted in his childhood. The church appears to have been targeted because it embodied at least three things this pathetic human being hated, not just the one or two things I know certain critics will single out as they view the world through their own warped prisms. Adkisson had apparently planned to keep murdering church-goers until gunned down by police. He planned to keep killing innocents until he died in a hail of police bullets... suicide-by-cop. But he was instead tackled and restrained by church-goers just seconds into his attack as he attempted to reload after shooting his shotgun's magazine dry. The two people that died were 60 and 61. Those wounded were 38, 41, 42, 68, 69, 71, and 76. Though Adkisson walked past an assembled group of children outside the sanctuary awaiting their stage call, he did not fire on them. No children were physically injured, and no parents of young children were killed, creating orphans. There is reason to be thankful for that. Though he was found with 73 live 12-gauge shotgun cartridges, he was only able to fire 3 before being tackled while trying to reload. Most semi-automatic and pump shotguns hold 5 rounds of 12-gauge ammunition, unless plugged for bird-hunting. Those two additional shots would have taken less than a second to fire, and could have hurt several more people, at least. There is reason to be thankful that the previous owner of the gun was probably a bird hunter. There is reason to be thankful that Adkisson apparently didn't know enough to remove the plug. Sunday was a horrible day for the Tennessee Valley Unitarian Universalist Church, and there will be terrible days ahead as they seek to recover, and to heal. But most will heal, and a day that could have been far worse was not, thanks to small miracles. Update: Apparently there are some people who want to go on a shrieking political bender about this tragedy (both right and left), but that isn't going to happen here. Comments off.Posted by: Confederate Yankee at 12:11 PM | Comments (25) | Add Comment | Trackbacks (Suck)
July 25, 2008
When Denied A Chance to Turn Wounded Troops Into A Photo Op, Obama Declined to Meet with Them at All
Why did Barack Obama cancel his visit to see wounded U.S. soldiers yesterday at Landstuhl Medical Center in Ramstein, Germany?
According to the Politico and the Chicago Sun-Times, the Obama campaign is blaming the military, claiming that the Obama campaign was told the visit "would look too political." But according to MSNBC, Obama and his Senate staff could have visited wounded troops; he simply couldn't bring along his campaign staff and the media. The campaign's response? They withdrew the request to visit the troops.If he can't use them as props, it seems Barack Obama has little use for the military. Come to think if it, that is roughly how they factor into his feckless foreign policy plans as well.
The official said "We didn't know why" the request to visit the wounded troops was withdrawn. "He (Obama) was more than welcome. We were all ready for him."
Update: Spin away, fanboy. Greg Sargent tries to cover for Obama, citing what we already knew: that Obama's campaign staff (and the media) was prohibited from visiting the hospital. It's a particularly weak attempt at deception, as it overlooks—purposefully, it seems—that there was precisely nothing stopping Obama from bringing members of his Senate staff with him, or simply visiting the troops himself. But Sargent also claims that Obama didn't bring his Senate staff with him. Uh-oh. So explain something to me, Obama fans: how can Obama go on his "look at me" tour of American bases with only his campaign staff, and not with any of his Senate staff, and still claim his trips were part of a congressional fact-finding delegation? If he only brought his campaign staff, and no Senate staff as Sargent claims, then I'd like to know if American taxpayers picked up any of the costs associated with his multi-nation, round-the-world trip, or it was Obama's campaign alone that picked up the bill. Update: HuffPo contributor Brandon Friedman also tries the dishonest route:
No problem, of course, except for the fact that flatly isn't what the Pentagon said. Let's type this slower so that Friedman, Sargent, and the Obamaphiles in the media can follow along: Obama was never told he could not visit wounded soldiers. In fact, he was told they were prepared for his visit. What he was told is that he could not bring his campaign staff and the mass media. He had to go as a Senator, not a president candidate. Once Barack Obama found out he would have to visit wounded American soldiers alone—guarded only by his massive Secret Service and State Department security detail—he balked. Let's make that a bit more clear: Barack Obama withdrew his request to visit the troops. He could have gone, but made the decision not to go on his own, without his campaign entourage. It's so simply even a journalist could get it right... if they wanted to.
Barack Obama canceled a pre-planned visit to the troops in Germany yesterday after being told by the Pentagon that the trip would violate a Pentagon policy prohibiting campaign stops on military installations. No problem there.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at 10:30 AM | Comments (106) | Add Comment | Trackbacks (Suck)
http://www.politico.com/blogs/jonathanmartin/0708/Obama_camp_says_Pentagon_nixed_troop_visit.html
Also, these guys seem pretty happy with Obama.
http://www.whosplayin.com/xoops/html/modules/weblog/details.php?blog_id=719
They might be offended that you consider them nothing more than "campaign props." Is it simply too hard for a right-wing blogger to believe that a lot of these guys actually like Obama?
Posted by: Xanthy at July 25, 2008 11:01 AM (Xhulh)
Hear that cackling in the background? Hear those knives being sharpened? Hillary is coming for you, have fun in Denver.
Posted by: Pardo at July 25, 2008 11:03 AM (2uUgW)
And of course even the goof known as Xanthy can see that the vid is from Afghanistan, not Germany, and where the military allowed photographers to be. Why does Obama only want to see troops when the photogs are around?
Posted by: Night Wood at July 25, 2008 11:10 AM (2uUgW)
Why did you even bother showing up?
I don't think anyone finds it surprising that Obama has minority support in the military (in both senses of the term), but it is just that: decidedly minority support. The overwhelming majority of soldiers, current duty or veterans do not support him, but that is not the point either. The point is that he will only "stain his presence" by meeting with servicemen when the cameras are rolling.
As for whether or not the troops wold be offended to find out they are being used as props--please, quit insulting their collective intelligence.
Despite what Jon "stuk in irak" Kerry and many other liberals think, soldiers, by and large, are better educated than the general population. They know that will be used as political props by both sides in events such as this.
It comes with the territory, so save your faux outrage.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at July 25, 2008 11:26 AM (xNV2a)
When will the Obama robots see this phony for what he is? He is nothing but canned speeches about hope and change. He wouldn't know an original idea if jumped up and bit him on the rear. He is afraid to go on Fox News Sunday because they might ask him a tough question. He is afraid to debate McCain in an open town debate. He is afraid to admit the bravery, sacrifice, courage and performance of our troops during the surge is what made it work. And he is afraid to admit he was wrong about the surge all along. He is afraid to do anything that is not carefully scripted.
Posted by: tom at July 25, 2008 11:34 AM (2bnbT)
Posted by: Night Wood at July 25, 2008 11:36 AM (2uUgW)
G*d help the military if he actually becomes CinC.
(and the rest of us too! %-)
Posted by: redc1c4 at July 25, 2008 12:03 PM (8nz4d)
McCain got it right. It is never improper for a Senator to visit the troops. It is, however improper to use the event for a campaign. Obama made his choice. If it was not useful to his campaign, it was not worth doing.
Posted by: Zelsdorf Ragshaft III at July 25, 2008 12:05 PM (W3y8V)
Posted by: SouthernRoots at July 25, 2008 12:08 PM (EsOdX)
Posted by: Big Country at July 25, 2008 12:31 PM (niydV)
http://www.dequalss.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2008/07/obama-polizei1.png
Posted by: Buffoon at July 25, 2008 12:49 PM (ppVJx)
Posted by: Dusty at July 25, 2008 02:24 PM (1Lzs1)
Posted by: Tonto (USA) at July 25, 2008 04:04 PM (Qv1xF)
Posted by: Capitalist Infidel at July 25, 2008 04:33 PM (kNqJV)
Posted by: mytralman at July 25, 2008 04:56 PM (EvFSs)
And only a conservative could be so stupid as to believe that actually happened.
Posted by: TR at July 25, 2008 05:38 PM (Bhrim)
One of the foreign policy advisors to the Obama campaign is one Major General Jonathan Scott Gration, USAF, Ret.
What makes this interesting is that MGen Gration served, from August 1991 to June 1992 at Ramstein AB, Germany, and, even more interesting, from June 2004 on (the website listed only goes up to February 2005) as Director, Plans and Policy Directorate, Headquarters, U.S. European Command, Stuttgart Germany. In short, MGen Gration should have known of this policy, or at the very least should have known who to contact to inquire if there'd be any policy problems.
Makes ya wonder what sort of advice he is giving the Senator.
Posted by: C-C-G at July 25, 2008 06:02 PM (e+Bm0)
I know something about the purple heart. My father, a 1Lt in the 1st Infantry, got one on Omaha Beach, another one in Aachen on day one of the Ardennes Offensive and a third in Operation Lumberjack two days before we took the Ludendorf Bridge. Unfortunately, that one came with a flag. I got one, too, the same way John McCain got his - from an SA-2 over North Vietnam.
The last thing a guy who's recovering needs is a politician. He needs privacy, medical treatment, his family, his friends and physical therapy.
I can't believe would vote to make Obama Commander in Chief.
Posted by: arch at July 25, 2008 06:48 PM (ZvmZx)
Our wounded soldiers are NOT props for campaign ads. Period.
I seriously doubt McCain would even consider using them for that, either. Obama... well... I dunno if he would or not.
Posted by: C-C-G at July 25, 2008 07:04 PM (e+Bm0)
Having been one of those wounded guys laying in a rack in Germany. The only reason I could possibly think of, for any service member to want to be on TV with the idiot is to get their face on TV so their families could see them.
Now that being said, of all the Marines I know, in all my travels, I have yet to meet one that supports Obama. I am sure there are some. But given my experiences in my time in the Corps. The Majority lay with the conservatives.
As I said in an earlier thread, I would rather be busted down than be forced to meet with this idiot. Now as the military is not a political organization, that would not happen. Unless someone was being a serious idiot. Some people in politics know this. Some do not.
I do not have any documentation for the next part of my post, but I have heard about it from several friends. Maybe one of you guys can pull something up.
Apparently a month, or less than a month ago, a hospital that caters to our wounded warriors in TX sent an inventation out to both McCain, and Obama. Same stipulations were required as that in Germany. No press, no staffers. McCain said yes, Obama said no.
Like I said, I have not found anything other than message board traffic on this, and scuttlebutt from my Marines. So any information would be appreciated.
Given Obama's past, and current actions. This is not difficult to believe.
Posted by: Matt at July 25, 2008 07:40 PM (rHW2R)
Are you all through babbling about what's "dignified" or not? Tell me again about dignity even though you and your trashy little fellow Obamicans can barely make a point without accusing Obama opponents of being KKK or Nazis.
Posted by: Nine-of-Diamonds at July 25, 2008 08:32 PM (sk9If)
Posted by: diogenes at July 25, 2008 08:52 PM (PMlL4)
"What or Who are you going to blame 3 years from now?"
The reality is that things for the next few years are going to be tough, and despite the 'blame game' that the Democrats are and have been playing, when Bush is gone and there ain't no one left to blame, then the 'house of cards' that is the Obama Phenomenon will come crashing down in flames...
As they try to play the McCain Campaign as "Bush Part 3" they might want to realize that Obama is nothing more than "Carter Part 2"
Posted by: Big Country at July 25, 2008 08:56 PM (niydV)
This candidate is a worthless "magic-negro" media creation with almost nothing going for him but white guilt.
Can't argue based on his resume (won't even convene a meeting of his own congressional committees and in desperation LIES about which ones he's on).
Can't argue based on his judgment of character (Rezko? Rev.Godd@m America?).
Can't argue based on his vision for America(even the LA Times admits that there's no way he can pay for the promises he's making).
The race card is the only card in his acolytes' deck. I take it diogenes wasn't old enough to vote in the 1940's and 50's? A shame, because aside from the reversal of skin color the racial politics fixation of the old Democrat party would definitely be to his liking.
Posted by: Nine-of-Diamonds at July 25, 2008 09:30 PM (sk9If)
Use terms like "Chocolate Jesus" and "Magic Negro."
Wait for innate racism of your comments is called out.
Claim opponent "played the race card."
That's beneath contempt and any further comment.
Posted by: diogenes at July 25, 2008 09:45 PM (PMlL4)
Sack of magic-negro worshipping trash.
I expected a better effort. Are we going to see some originality from it or will it still keep its fingers in its ears and chant "racist"?
Posted by: Nine-of-Diamonds at July 25, 2008 09:50 PM (sk9If)
Posted by: diogenes at July 25, 2008 09:52 PM (PMlL4)
http://elections.foxnews.com/2008/06/28/obama-quietly-visits-veterans-at-walter-reed/
Posted by: Arbotreeist at July 25, 2008 10:03 PM (6I6OG)
Dio ought to become Obama's speech writer; I am sure screeching "ray-cist" all day is going to tie up those battleground states. Based on that alone, I'm going to go out on a limb and call the whole South for the Messiah.
Keep dancing, demo-monkey. Gimme some originality though.
Posted by: Nine-of-Diamonds at July 25, 2008 10:04 PM (sk9If)
I have no doubt that this sounds repititious to you. You've probably heard the words so often in your life that they roll like water off a duck's back. I'm not going to come up with any witty counters to your name-calling; a racist is simply a racist.
And since this has nothing to do with C-Y's original post, I'm leaving it here.
Posted by: diogenes at July 25, 2008 10:42 PM (PMlL4)
Behold - Magic Negro and Diochimp's substitute for a resume, rationality, or just plain competence.
Great originality in those posts as always. And no - acknowledging repetitive intellectual poverty does not make it anything other than what it is.
Gimme another one, diochimp. Make it quick. And I expect a better effort from one sent by the Messiah himself. Jesus deserves better defenders than some B-team neanderthal.
Posted by: Nine-of-Diamonds at July 25, 2008 11:01 PM (sk9If)
There is no excuse for using this terminology, or any other racially- , religious -, or country of national origin-, insulting language. Yes, there are those on the right who haven't gotten the word (like Ron Paul), but I suggest to you, diogenes, that you spend the appropriate time investigating what is showing up with increasing frequency on the extreme left-wing blogs like Daily KOS, Firedoglake, and the Huffington Post. After that, take a good long look at what is appearing at the Obamassiah's campaign website. To me it is clear that an American future free of racial, religious, and country of national origin prejudice does not lie with the political left.
Posted by: Mescalero at July 25, 2008 11:28 PM (csBCb)
Posted by: Big Country at July 25, 2008 11:51 PM (9dP7o)
Posted by: usinkorea at July 26, 2008 03:08 AM (OuA2y)
posted by diogenes at July 25, 2008 08:52 PM"
I do.
Because the Klan was the terrorist arm of the Deomocratic party.
Posted by: N. O'Brain at July 26, 2008 08:36 AM (wYcGz)
> Interesting strategery:
Use race-delineating comments like "as you've notice, I don't look like the other guys who spoke here" in your speech to thousands of germans.
>Wait for innate racism of your comments is called out.
>Claim opponent "played the race card."
> That's beneath contempt and any further comment.
Still agree? Of course, I can't find a single member of the MSM today that concurs.
Posted by: redherkey at July 26, 2008 10:11 AM (kjqFg)
However, with that said, isn't it interesting that it's always the Senator from Illinois that is bringing up his own race, and not the Senator from Arizona?
Can any of you Obamamaniacs show me one reliable report of Sen. McCain making an issue of Sen. Obama's race?
Posted by: C-C-G at July 26, 2008 12:32 PM (Ipu2O)
Posted by: Zelsdorf Ragshaft III at July 26, 2008 12:33 PM (W3y8V)
As Mescalero above points out, it's not like the Left is above outright racism. Clarence Thomas has been called an Uncle Tom countless times. Ted Rall portrayed Condi Rice as Prissy, the ditzy slave in "Gone with the Wind." The fury of the left when blacks dare to "leave the plantation" knows no bounds, as Thomas noted.
I think Tom hit the nail on the head:
He is afraid to go on Fox News Sunday because they might ask him a tough question. He is afraid to debate McCain in an open town debate. He is afraid to admit the bravery, sacrifice, courage and performance of our troops during the surge is what made it work. And he is afraid to admit he was wrong about the surge all along. He is afraid to do anything that is not carefully scripted.
Matt: thank you for your service.
Posted by: Donna V. at July 26, 2008 12:42 PM (664JH)
Posted by: Purple Avenger at July 26, 2008 12:57 PM (uhncL)
The troop love a man who did everything within his power to get as many of them killed as he possibly could?
In his entire '143 days' in the Senate he has not supported one thing to help or protect the 'American' troops. You could count on his and other democrats BDS driven aid and comfort to AQ.
Posted by: Scrapiron at July 26, 2008 01:04 PM (I4yBD)
Posted by: Neo at July 26, 2008 03:07 PM (Yozw9)
Posted by: Purple Avenger at July 26, 2008 05:53 PM (uhncL)
Another inconvenient Muslim relative turned up today, a Brother:
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/the_real_american_idol/article1472877.ece
And, here's an interesting story from today's UK Telegraph, where in the very first sentence, it says the Obama's do not give "Christmas" nor "Birthday" presents to their children?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/uselection2008/barackobama/2460299/Barack-Obama-does-not-give-birthday-presents-to-children.html
Interesting, isn't it?
What kind of "Christians" ban Christmas presents to their children?
I know, I know, Jehovah Witnesses, correct? Do you have evidence that Obama and family, suddenly converted to The Watch Tower group?
Huh?
Obviously, Jews don't celebrate Christmas, but I doubt that's the Obama's excuse, especially since they've belonged to a patentedly Anti-Semitic "Church" for 20+ years!
There is one other "group" in America however, that neither celebrates Christmas nor Birthdays, but which has approved the giving of "Seasonal Gifts"; which is what the Obama's now do; read about it here:
http://www.masnet.org/askimam_runsess.asp?id=247
Interesting, isn't it?
Can you say: "Taqiyah"?? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taqiyya
Which is worse?? Stupidity or Willful Ignorance?
Posted by: Dale in Atlanta at July 26, 2008 08:49 PM (BPJn5)
Why all the talk about Barack Obama's middle name? Who cares? Did anybody care that a certain WWII American general Bradley had the first name Omar? Wasn't the second rightly-guided Muslim caliph named Omar? Who in the Hell cares?
What matters are contemporary political issues and approaches to solving issues that concern Americans. Barack Obama's middle name, birth certificate, etc. aren't among those issues.
Posted by: Mescalero at July 26, 2008 09:59 PM (csBCb)
Posted by: C-C-G at July 26, 2008 10:31 PM (Ipu2O)
Simple. Because it's part and parcel of conservative xenophobia. The fact that his middle name is Hussein is scary to a lot of ignoramuses in this country. If someone doesn't have a solid, Christian-sounding name, these people will have misgivings, no matter what.
Posted by: Arbotreeist at July 26, 2008 10:41 PM (6I6OG)
Bernard Obama is a half-brother. His Father was Barak Obama, Sr, through his first wife, after Senior returned to her. Bernard converted to Islam 18 years ago. I suppose that's enough to tar Barry with a "Moose-limb" brush for some folks.
Dale then asks, with a dramatic flourish worthy of a third-rate prosecutor 'What kind of "Christians" ban Christmas presents to their children?' Well, first, they don't ban them, but merely refuse to give their daughters Christmas presents. Second, I would imagine that any devout Christian would prefer to honor the date of their savior's birth with something more significant than crass, materialistic possessions.
Me, I love goodies on Christmas, but I'm not a devout Christian, either.
Dale then jumps to the unjustifiable conclusion that the Obamas "don't celebrate Christmas," just because they don't give their daughters Christmas presents. Dale seems to have a very limited grasp of the nature of Christmas.
Finally Dale "why yes, I really am a bigot" from ATL invokes Taqiyah, subsuming that Barry really is a Manchurian Mooslimb after all.
I think in Dale's case stupidity trumps willful ignorance, but it's a close race.
It's really pathetic that the best some goobers cam come up with are limp-stalked insults like "chocolate Jesus," when you consider the breathtaking panorama of absurdity which is the Obama mythos, not to mention his feeble political record.
Pathetic...
Posted by: Casey at July 26, 2008 10:57 PM (RJSy/)
I also believe that Senator McCain is on record saying much the same thing, but of course you conveniently forget that, as well.
Typical lefty. To you, conservatives are damned if we do and damned if we don't.
Posted by: C-C-G at July 27, 2008 08:14 AM (Ipu2O)
Posted by: brando at July 27, 2008 09:41 AM (Gs5OS)
I don't care about Obama's middle name. I don't care about his race. As Casey noted, there's enough about the man to dislike without focusing on his middle name. Or the stupidity of calling him the anti-Christ, which just makes the commentator look like a nutcase.
Arbortreeist, nice cherry-picking you're doing there. Zero in on the comments which confirm your stereotypes and ignore the others. Yeah, there's that liberal nuance for you.
And, of course, the left is beyond such pettiness. That must be the reason I've come across such weighty discussions as whether McC really was a POW at all and did he once call his wife a c*nt.
Posted by: Donna V. at July 27, 2008 10:45 AM (MR8Cd)
As for Arb, his MO is to show up, throw around attacks for a while, and then disappear for a while. I can't prove it, but I suspect he slinks back to DailyKOS or DU to fill up on anti-conservative venom.
Oh, you forgot the lefties questioning whether McCain is really a natural-born US citizen... of course, the left decries questions about Obama's birth certificate, but strangely they have no problem with questioning McCain's birth.
Posted by: C-C-G at July 27, 2008 12:40 PM (Ipu2O)
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at July 27, 2008 02:05 PM (HcgFD)
If memory serves, in that discussion many of the lefty commenters actually made good and valid points, in fact, about not painting all lefties with the words of one.
If Mr. Abortreeist would like to peruse it, the thread is right here.
I'll accept an apology from you now, Arb.
Posted by: C-C-G at July 27, 2008 02:53 PM (Ipu2O)
Posted by: C-C-G at July 27, 2008 04:23 PM (Ipu2O)
Posted by: Donna V. at July 27, 2008 04:37 PM (nG/ul)
Oh yeah, that's a good one, isn't it? Another one of those little things that just might - I don't know why - lead our troops and their families to come to the conclusion that the libs do not respect nor honor their service.
Posted by: Donna V. at July 27, 2008 04:52 PM (nG/ul)
Posted by: Kat at July 27, 2008 05:32 PM (3iZcW)
Personally, I decry those kinds of stories from both sides, as they seem to me to be more of the same old conspiracy-theory mumbo-jumbo from the kind of mind that thinks that 9/11 was an inside job.
Posted by: C-C-G at July 27, 2008 05:36 PM (Ipu2O)
Posted by: Kat at July 27, 2008 05:44 PM (3iZcW)
Posted by: Dale in Atlanta at July 27, 2008 06:43 PM (BPJn5)
Posted by: C-C-G at July 27, 2008 07:07 PM (Ipu2O)
Posted by: chrs lee at July 28, 2008 06:07 AM (Ah8Kf)
Posted by: Robin Munn at July 28, 2008 02:44 PM (sPBA5)
http://artsociety.suite101.*com/article.cfm/chocolate_obama_jesus (remove the asterisk)
Posted by: Pablo at July 29, 2008 11:39 AM (yTndK)
Posted by: David M at July 29, 2008 11:51 AM (gIAM9)
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Posted by: sdgsd at August 02, 2008 06:32 AM (KBWR2)
So Did Obama "Blow Off" Troops, Or Didn't He?
Writing in today's New York Daily News, James Gordon Meek states that U.S. Army officials have disputed an email sent out by an American serviceman stationed at Bagram Airfield in Afghanistan, where the author claims that Barack Obama disrespected American servicemen by refusing to meet with them.
The email was published here in full yesterday, and read:Meeks' article counters:
Hello everyone, As you know I am not a very political person. I just wanted to pass along that Senator Obama came to Bagram Afghanistan for about an hour on his visit to "The War Zone". I wanted to share with you what happened. He got off the plan[sic] and got into a bullet proof vehicle, got to the area to meet with the Major General (2 Star) who is the commander here at Bagram. As the Soldiers where lined up to shake his hand he blew them off and didn't say a word as he went into the conference room to meet the General. As he finished, the vehicles took him to the ClamShell (pretty much a big top tent that military personnel can play basketball or work out in with weights) so he could take his publicity pictures playing basketball. He again shunned the opportunity to talk to Soldiers to thank them for their service. So really he was just here to make a showing for the American's back home that he is their candidate for President. I think that if you are going to make an effort to come all the way over here you would thank those that are providing the freedom that they are providing for you. I swear we got more thanks from the NBA Basketball Players or the Dallas Cowboy Cheerleaders than from one of the Senators, who wants to be the President of the United States. I just don't understand how anyone would want him to be our Commander-and-Chief. It was almost that he was scared to be around those that provide the freedom for him and our great country. If this is blunt and to the point I am sorry but I wanted you all to know what kind of caliber of person he really is. What you see in the news is all fake.
Meek's article provides another much needed perspective to the story of Obama's visit to Bagram, and makes what I think is a fair case that the officer who wrote the Bagram email was basing his email on his limited first-person perception of events, and that he wrote his post without the benefit of knowing all the facts. It is vitally important for us to know that Barack Obama didn't play basketball in Afghanistan, nor did he visit a specific tent. We should be grateful that Meek ferreted out the truth and debunked those scurrilous allegations. But LTC Nielson-Green's refutation of these two rather minor specific points does not at all address the most important allegation made in the viral email, the author's perception that soldiers on base were "blown off" by the junior Senator. In fact, the PAO admits that Obama only met with selected soldiers. Only service-persons from Illinois were invited to meet him, and soldiers not from Illinois (the author of the email is from Utah) were indeed not met by the junior Senator. Though no doubt a touchy situation for the military, the key premise holds. The same handful of faces are seen in all the pictures released to the media from Obama's visit. If you were not a soldier from Illinois or otherwise selected serviceman, you were not allowed to meet Obama. The question then arises whether the decision to limit contact with the troops was a decision made by the military brass, if that was a decision made by the Obama campaign, or by joint agreement. The second email published, from someone at an air base as Obama swung through Iraq stated in part that Obama's visit was "A disgraceful PR stunt, using the troops as a platform for his ego and campaign." To date the second email has gone unchallenged and a senior officer I interviewed confirmed on background that Obama's visit to Iraq was nothing more than a campaign stop masquerading congressional delegation visit. Update: James Gordon Meek of the Daily News has posted an update in the comments, noting contact with the author of the email, and his dialing back of the now viral claim. It reads:
But angry Army brass debunked the Obama-bashing soldier's allegations, which went viral Thursday over the Web and on military blogs such as Blackfive. The e-mail claims Obama repeatedly shunned soldiers on his way to the Clamshell - a recreation tent - to "take his publicity pictures playing basketball." "These comments are inappropriate and factually incorrect," said Bagram spokesman Army Lt. Col. Rumi Nielson-Green, who added that such political commentary is barred for uniformed personnel. Obama didn't play basketball at Bagram or visit the Clamshell, he said. Home-state troops were invited to meet him, but his arrival was kept secret for security reasons.
My military sources don't seem to agree with Meek's assertion that the email constituted a violation of military regulations barring political statements, as the email was sent only to family members. That the email was distributed beyond that was beyond his control. It bears noting that the Iraq email has not be challenged by anyone, and Obama's refusal to meet with wounded GI's because his campaign staff and the media couldn't come with him is a far bigger story, and one that has done Obama far more damage.
"I am writing this to ask that you delete my email and not forward it. After checking my sources, information that was put out in my email was wrong. This email was meant only for my family. Please respect my wishes and delete the email and if there are any blogs you have my email portrayed on I would ask if you would take it down too. Thanks for your understanding."
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at 09:35 AM | Comments (74) | Add Comment | Trackbacks (Suck)
Posted by: Zelsdorf Ragshaft III at July 25, 2008 09:58 AM (W3y8V)
Posted by: Zelsdorf Ragshaft III at July 25, 2008 10:02 AM (W3y8V)
Posted by: Jim Beam at July 25, 2008 10:31 AM (mROlM)
Clearly, one cannot vote either for or against Obama without knowing this critical fact.
Posted by: Xanthy at July 25, 2008 11:03 AM (Xhulh)
'"We were a bit delayed ... as he took time to shake hands, speak to troops and pose for photographs," Nielson-Green said.'
You did include this: "his arrival was kept secret for security reasons" but you seem to ignore it. If his visit to the base was nothing but a publicity stunt, why weren't all the troops alerted? Surely that would have made for better pictures.
Posted by: Maria at July 25, 2008 11:26 AM (PWj7B)
What a lame excuse! Can't he go see the troops without his staff to hold his hand? Tell them to go get a cup of coffee. Take a little time out of your schedule for the troops. Does he tell his staff what to do or does his staff tell him what to do? Does the phrase grow a pair mean anything?
It just shows you one major flaw Obama has. He is a coward! He is probably afraid of the reception he would get from the soldiers. And if he was worried about it looking like a campaign event. DON'T LET THE PRESS COME WITH YOU!
When will the Obama robots see this phony for what he is? He is nothing but canned speeches about hope and change. He wouldn't know an original idea if jumped up and bit him on the rear. He is afraid to go on Fox News Sunday because they might ask him a tough question. He is afraid to debate McCain in an open town hall debate. He is afraid to admit the bravery, sacrifice, courage and performance of our troops during the surge is what made it work. And he is afraid to admit he was wrong about the surge all along. He is afraid to do anything that is not carefully scripted.
Posted by: tom at July 25, 2008 11:54 AM (2bnbT)
Reading this and the most recent post (about the cancelled hospital visit) and other sites, I just had a question about military regs: It says here that Obama only met with Illinois servicemen and women. Could that have something to do with the no-campaigning-only-as-a-Senator rule cited in the hospital fiasco? Meaning: it'd be perfectly OK for the Illinois Senator to meet with his constituents from Illinois, but not others, because that would then be classified as "campaigning"? I would guess that there's probably some sort of exception for meeting with officers of a given rank; you shouldn't have a rule that would stop Obama from talking with General Petraeus because Petraeus isn't from Illinois. But that shouldn't permeate down through the ranks; the DOD could draw a line somewhere, saying below this grade, it's "campaigning".
Just a random question which I thought I'd bounce off you guys to see if you had any knowledge of it.
Posted by: diogenes at July 25, 2008 12:29 PM (PMlL4)
Politico has a good rundown of what the DoD says it advised Obama's campaign, as well as a statement from Obama's campaign spokesman on their interpretation.
You can see that here: http://www.politico.com/blogs/jonathanmartin/0708/DoD_spokesman_says_Obama_camp_was_reminded_of_political_rules.html
(Sorry, I don't know how to do a text link)
I give Obama's campaign the benefit of the doubt here, especially in light of the recent "Mr. Maliki's own interpreter incorrectly translated his comments to say Maliki is in favor of an Obama timeline withdrawal" incident.
Not saying that same force was at work here because I don't know, but I admit I tend to look at things with a skeptical eye.
Posted by: Islandgirl45 at July 25, 2008 12:39 PM (nfxGg)
After a KKK reference?
C'mon. Repent. The offer's still on the table.
Posted by: brando at July 25, 2008 12:55 PM (Gs5OS)
Fact is he COULD have visited the troops. He just couldn't bring his own press club and staffers for campaign photo ops. He would of had to have military photographers only. So he didn't think it was worth it. It was his choice, no one else's fault, but Obama.
Thems the facts.
Posted by: Keith at July 25, 2008 01:25 PM (L/Dn5)
Posted by: JGM at July 25, 2008 01:37 PM (ioqnv)
I know the left wants me to believe their lies, but I'd rather go with some cold hard facts that are common knowledge.
Islamic Republic of Pakistan
Legal System: based on English common law with provisions to accommodate Pakistan's status as an Islamic state; accepts compulsory ICJ jurisdiction with reservations
Muslim 97%
mmmmmmm. That hurts.
Don't pretend to be offended that folks think you're a liar. What's your argument scorecard look like these days?
I'm going to direct a few left leaning friends to these threads, so they can have a look at you.
You lament that people think you're nuts, but then you act like a hyper-exaggerated characterization of a moonbat. The things you've written are emblematic of Liberals. The best thing to do is just laugh at you and remember it.
Don't bother with the apology.
Posted by: brando at July 25, 2008 03:14 PM (Gs5OS)
I stopped by my local Barnes and Noble this morning to pick up a copy of the "Daily Kos Guide for Obomican Dummies" so that I can avoid such silly gaffes again in the future.
I guess my concern there was that innocent Muslims (and others) were potentially being held responsible for the actions of the 9/11 nutjobs. I don't think that's the way we're supposed to operate in America but, hey, we've already determined that I can be mistaken. Maybe we do hold everybody that follows a certain religion responsible for the actions of any of its members. That's what Obama was getting at in that quotation, not that he was going to side with the Muslims against the U.S., as was inferred.
I will also go so far as to say that, in the interim since 9/11, I really think American Muslim leaders have dropped the ball by not "policing their own" to any appreciable extent. It's tough for them to squeak too loudly about mistreatement when they don't hardly lift a finger to help themselves, in some sense.
My question remains about the e-mail story and the hospital visit story possibly being intertwined, if anybody wants to answer.
Posted by: diogenes at July 25, 2008 03:33 PM (PMlL4)
Stop falling for news delivered by email. Go seek the truth for yourself... the viral email that was circulating was a hoax, pure and simple, with the intent to plant seeds of hostility. This is the email equivalent of the Swift Boat Veteran's for Truth testimonials, all of which have been debunked.
Want to read the truth on this? Go to Snopes.com, a site dedicated to an unbiased debunking of emails like this.
http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/afghanistan.asp
Posted by: WatchingFromAfar at July 25, 2008 03:45 PM (09ntO)
Troll.
Posted by: DaveP. at July 25, 2008 04:28 PM (q6tuN)
Obama is a POLITICIAN, bred and molded in the fine tradition of the Chicago Democratic machine.
No deep psychological analysis is required to explain any of his actions. They are designed to acquire either votes or money.
He knows that he is not going to get the "military" vote. He only needs a few in his presence, just long enough for the heart-warming pictures of his "connection" with the common soldier. Any other contact with military personel holds only danger to his political aspirations; embarassing moments that may tarnish the halo, so he and his staff control every aspect of those meetings.
He found enough supporters on a large Kuwait base to look good in a photo op; I suspect that, among the limited set "wounded, in hospital" that they couldn't find/identify supporters so as to control the scenario, especially with the required one-on-one settings where embarassment could occur.
The LTC PR flack is acting per standing orders: A US Senator WILL be treated as such, and there will be no disprespect shown, regardless of personal feelings. What the Senator requests will occur, and without questioning. The Army gets really touchy about that whole rank thing. ;-)
Posted by: bud at July 25, 2008 04:56 PM (fHWtq)
Posted by: brando at July 25, 2008 05:33 PM (Gs5OS)
In that case, could you help me get my millions out of a Nigerian bank?
Posted by: TR at July 25, 2008 05:34 PM (Bhrim)
Oh, and that other Obamican slimeball can stow his "apology".
Maybe if we weren't so busy calling non-Obama supporters Klansmen we'd be a little more aware of basic facts about the War on Terror - no?
Anyway, I can understand Obama thinking it unseemly to exploit wounded soldiers for political gain. However, as others have noted there is no reason why he couldn't have gone alone with only his security detail, etc and had private conversations with the servicemen.
Most commenters seem to chalk it up to disdain for the military but Tom is probably onto something when he talks about Obama needing his staff to "hold his hand". He is basically an Affirmative Action candidate who can't conduct himself extemporaneously in front of a hostile audience. Pretty much everything about his trip abroad has been rigorously stage-managed. When you've been raised all your life in one left-wing echo chamber after another (Harvard, Chicago, and so on) it is difficult if not impossible to face people who don't share your beliefs.
Contrast this with George W. Bush's decision to go the MLK day wreath laying ceremony, and Rosa Parks' funeral. Despite all the venom that the left-wingers spewed, even the mainstream networks had to give him credit for going.
Posted by: Nine-of-Diamonds at July 25, 2008 08:18 PM (sk9If)
Must be one pretty darned big family if he had to sign his full name with his middle initial, include his rank and posting, and describe himself as "An American Soldier" and "married and father of 6 children" so they'd know who it was.
Yeah, that's the ticket.
Posted by: skylark at July 25, 2008 08:25 PM (0e3Lc)
Posted by: diogenes at July 25, 2008 08:26 PM (PMlL4)
Posted by: DaveP. at July 25, 2008 04:28 PM
--------------------------------------
Geeze, which ones HAVEN'T been debunked? For instance:
http://homepage.mac.com/chinesemac/kerry_medals/truth.html
Better yet, how about you name a single substantive claim they made about Kerry's military service that was proven true?
Pickens must need his money, because every time someone's tried to take him up on his "challenge," he's backed out.
Posted by: skylark at July 25, 2008 08:28 PM (0e3Lc)
BTW-no need to apologize, you hopeychangey abortion.
Posted by: Nine-of-Diamonds at July 25, 2008 08:47 PM (sk9If)
But you are right on one count: I shouldn't have suggested you belong to the KKK. Since I don't know you, I don't know what affiliations, if any, you actually have in the Real World. I should have said that your racism would certainly qualify you for inclusion in the KKK, should you choose to join. For THAT, I apologize.
Posted by: diogenes at July 25, 2008 08:58 PM (PMlL4)
Heh.
Not a KKK member - just a minority extremely worried about the Magical Negro's associations and politics.
I personally think the great hopeychangey chimp is a lost cause but to the other readers: my use of "Magical Negro" is actually a description of a very common entertainment/social motif affecting many of the "positive" cultural portrayals of black people. See the article below. If I'm not mistaken Ehrenstein is anything but conservative, so just keep that in mind when it is dismissed it as bigotry (inevitably):
http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/opinion/la-oe-ehrenstein19mar19,1,3136932.story?track=rss
Posted by: Nine-of-Diamonds at July 25, 2008 09:41 PM (sk9If)
Posted by: Nine-of-Diamonds at July 25, 2008 09:42 PM (sk9If)
If anybody here believes your smirky rationalizations of your racism, then it's worse than I thought.
Luckily, you're gonna lose with this strategery come November. But it's still vile as hell for the next few months.
Posted by: diogenes at July 25, 2008 09:50 PM (PMlL4)
It's fanatical about accusing others of racism, yet can barely conceive of minorities who don't support Obama. Interesting.
Even if Chocolate Jesus wins he loses. He's in over his head and he is sure to be remembered as an incompetent. In fact the worst thing McCain could do to dio-monkey's idol is lose the election. We like our Magic Negroes in "Bagger Vance" and "The Shawshank Redemption" - not presiding over massive tax hikes. If Obama loses (especially if he doesn't run again) he will be idealized as "what might have been).
Posted by: Nine-of-Diamonds at July 25, 2008 09:57 PM (sk9If)
Posted by: diogenes at July 25, 2008 10:47 PM (PMlL4)
The fact is that he was right about Ehrenstein's "magic negro" column and the literary type it was constructed from, and though I find some of his word choices deliberately provocative, your assertion he should join the Klan is no better.
It seems that you and he are both going at each other on equally obnoxious terms, so who do I boot? Both of you?
That sounds reasonable. First and final warning for both of you to lay off.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at July 25, 2008 11:07 PM (HcgFD)
Slimeball & mediocre liar, to boot.
Posted by: Nine-of-Diamonds at July 25, 2008 11:07 PM (sk9If)
Posted by: Nine-of-Diamonds at July 25, 2008 11:10 PM (sk9If)
In a free society, even racist speech has to be tolerated. But it was already pointed out that this isn't a free society here, by any means. It's CONFEDERATE YANKEE society, and you set the rules. You get to decide what conduct and language is acceptable and what isn't. And you have. You sat back and sat back and listened to his racism, probably chuckling cuz the stupid liberal was on the receiving end. Then, when I called you out, you called us both out. About as fair and balanced as I should have expected.
You needn't boot me, and I won't stand down like a good little soldier taking orders from his commanding officer. I'm gone. Enjoy your little narrow-minded redneck mudhole here.
Like it or not, change is coming. And if this is what America is chaning away from, we'll be better off.
Posted by: diogenes at July 25, 2008 11:28 PM (PMlL4)
As usual, you'd better grovel before the messiah or else you are ray-sist.
Interesting to note the knee-jerk disdain for military discipline. I thought the whole point of this Mickey Mouse photo op was to prove the hard Left's love for US servicemen/women? It never takes long before the left wingers' true attitude towards the military shines through.
Understand that I hardly care either way whether or not Majick Negro wins. It's going to be kind of funny seeing the MN out of his comfort zone if he does make it to the White House. Once he fails to deal with $5-a-gallon gas, Dinner Jacket's threats, inflation and who knows how many other problems, I'm quite confident he will be able to blame everything on Bushitler's RAY-SIST supporters-what with the Democrats controlling two branches of government. All the racial thought police who think he will be able to paper over his dearth of experience with blanket accusations of racism are sadly mistaken.
Obama cannot be loved as a politician. He can only be loved as a hypothetical, post-partisan idealized token minority whose candidacy offers absolution for the country's past racial sins. Even now many Leftists are disgusted with Obama's swing to the center on a variety of National Security issues. An incompetent Obama as president will initiate a masssive case of "Buyer's Remorse" as the hype wears off. I've said before, the worst thing McCain could possibly do to Obama is lose the election.
Posted by: Nine-of-Diamonds at July 26, 2008 07:14 AM (sk9If)
I'll second that motion.
Posted by: C-C-G at July 26, 2008 12:34 PM (Ipu2O)
So why doesn't Kerry release his records?
Posted by: Donna V. at July 26, 2008 01:01 PM (664JH)
So why doesn't Kerry release his records?
---------------------------
Well perhaps you'd like to tell us exactly which records of his military service are missing from those posted at his website?
But of course that has nothing to do with whether the SBVT claims have been disproven. I've shown where they have been, and would be happy to provide more links.
And of course you're evading my question:
Which substantive SBVT claim about Kerry's military record has been proven?
Be specific, please.
Posted by: skylark at July 26, 2008 02:07 PM (/GbrK)
Here's a link to at least some of those records, to help you refresh your memory:
Findlaw
Posted by: skylark at July 26, 2008 02:10 PM (/GbrK)
Earlier this week it was reported that Kerry was taking Pickens up on his offer (we noted it Monday). Yesterday Spectator editor Bob Tyrrell sent along the correspondence between Kerry and Pickens (Pickens's reply comes first, then Kerry's original letter), and it turns out there's a lot less to this than meets the eye. Kerry merely asserts that "I am prepared to prove the lie beyond any reasonable doubt" and then demands the moolah:
'I would request that your check be made payable to the Paralyzed Veterans of America. . . . My hope is that by sending this money to such a dedicated organization--founded for veterans, by veterans--some good can come out of the ugly smears and lies of the orchestrated campaign you bankrolled in 2004 in an attempt to discredit my military record and the record of the men who served alongside me on the Swift Boats of the Mekong Delta.'
Pickens wasn't born yesterday, however. He wrote back noting that Kerry actually had to prove it. He asked Kerry to send "the journal you maintained during your service in Vietnam" and "your military record, specifically your service records for the years 1971-1978, and copies of all movies and tapes made during your service."
Well, Boone, good luck trying to get those military records. Kerry promised to release them 1,025 days ago, and an anxious nation (except for a few select reporters) still holds its breath."
http://www.opinionjournal.com/best/?id=110010892
Posted by: Donna V. at July 26, 2008 03:31 PM (L301t)
Pickens issued an unqualified challenge to ANYONE who could disprove anything the SBVT claimed. When someone took him up on it, he changed the terms.
Aside from the fact that Pickens doesn't get to choose ahead of time exactly which proof will be presented - either Kerry makes his case or he doesn't - it's nonsensical.
Why would Kerry have to provide his complete wartime journals and home movies if he is disproving a claim about his antiwar activities? Why does he need to provide records about his postwar reserve service if he is disproving a claim about a wartime medal?
And since the challenge was issued to ANYONE...if I were to take him up on it, would I have to provide Kerry's Vietnam movies before I could even step up to the plate? Why?
And once again, you've failed to tell us which of any of the substantive SBVT claims about Kerry's military service has been proven true.
Why are you deflecting the question?
Posted by: skylark at July 26, 2008 03:42 PM (/GbrK)
Posted by: hueypilot at July 26, 2008 04:40 PM (nHFRs)
Posted by: hueypilot at July 26, 2008 04:40 PM
-------------------------------------------------
First of all, the question was which substantive claim SBVT made about his military service has been PROVEN. I don't see how you're answering that.
As to the rest:
Yes, Kerry received three wounds that qualified him for Purple Hearts.
All three wounds received medical treatment. Only two personnel casualty reports have been found. But the degree of the injury or the nature of the treatment isn't what qualifies one for a PH. For instance, SBVT member Robert Hildreth received the exact same sort of treatment - by a corpsman and then returned to duty -as Kerry did a little later on the same day. I don't see anyone questioning his PH.
Kerry's first PH was not "thrown out" by his CO. Hibbard claims Kerry brought it up, but he declined to pursue it. However, he admitted that he knew about it before he left VN and acquiesed to it.
The Navy inspector general said all of Kerry's award were awarded by those with proper authority and according to the proper procedures.
He left early as permitted by Navy regs? Not in dispute. (He also made sure his entire crew was transferred to safer duty, by the way.)
So exactly what's your point?
Posted by: skylark at July 26, 2008 05:40 PM (/GbrK)
Posted by: skylark at July 26, 2008 05:44 PM (/GbrK)
He was treated by a corpsman on March 13. Just like Hildreth and a couple of others were on February 20.
Posted by: skylark at July 26, 2008 05:51 PM (/GbrK)
Posted by: woodcaver at July 27, 2008 02:19 PM (qAVUl)
Obama cancels the trip, the press expresses dismay, not that it was cancelled, but that they didn't even know that he had been planning it because it wasn't on their press schedule. How dare he hide something from them again like he did his clandestine meeting with Hillary.
The Pentagon spokesman (and if you google him you'll find how many other incidents he's mangled) says no no we didn't say he couldn't come we just said he had to do it with his senate staff only and no press. Wink, wink because idiots will think if we mention the press then OBVIOUSLY Obama was such a media whore that he was planning on bringing the press and since he's a senator then surely he had senate staff with him even though it's against campaign rules for them to be on a campaign plane.
Yep, got his balls in a vice grip now. If he goes he's a pandering politico abusing wounded soldiers for the fawning media coverage (never mind the only media coverage that could have attended was military) and if he cancels he's a no good snob that had a hissy fit because the pentagon was too smart for him and told him he could bring the fawning liberal press (never mind that he wasn't going to bring them).
Ahhh yes, my neocon job at the Pentagon is secure.
Posted by: LetThereBe at July 27, 2008 02:39 PM (TAPs7)
Whats the big deal with Snopes ??? They get into their pants like the rest of us therefore they are plenty capable of screwing up once in a while like the rest of us.
And indeed, as far as this story goes, they did parts of it incorrect, through no fault of their own.
The Captain that authored the email said "Bagram" in his email, which most logically took to mean Bagram Air Base. He was actually referring to Camp Eggers where he was based, and probably referenced Bagram as a city reference for the family members that this email was distributed too originally.
Because of this, the soldiers at Bagram referenced at eh end of the Snopes article are correct, but utterly irrelevant.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at July 27, 2008 02:43 PM (HcgFD)
Posted by: C-C-G at July 27, 2008 07:13 PM (Ipu2O)
I bet if Mccain was a little younger, he would be over there fighting for our rights too!
Posted by: James at July 28, 2008 01:02 PM (qCz1b)
How's this?
The Pentagon considered two Obama aides, Gration and Jeff Kiernan, to be members of his campaign team and therefore not permitted to accompany the senator to Landstuhl, according to a Pentagon letter sent by European Command spokesman John Dorrian. Obama could only be accompanied by one of his Senate staff and ``the appropriate number of security personnel.''
...
Instead, he telephoned wounded soldiers at the base, a Pentagon spokeswoman said.
Bloomberg
As LTB pointed out, Senate staff are not permitted on campaign trips.
Posted by: skylark at July 30, 2008 12:27 AM (5ry6B)
July 24, 2008
G.I. In Afghanistan: Obama "Blew Them Off"
Blackfive posted this email yesterday and has another supporting account (added below in an update) from another member of the military who was also present during Obama's carefully scripted P.R. World Tour.
I think you should read it.I guess it should come as little surprise, then, that Obama has dropped meetings with U.S. soldiers stationed in Germany—including wounded soldiers from the campaigns in Iraq and Afghanistan— in favor of meeting with French and German civilians. Priorities, you know. Update: The second email from a member of the military in Iraq , forwarded to me from Blackfive:
Hello everyone, As you know I am not a very political person. I just wanted to pass along that Senator Obama came to Bagram Afghanistan for about an hour on his visit to "The War Zone". I wanted to share with you what happened. He got off the plan[sic] and got into a bullet proof vehicle, got to the area to meet with the Major General (2 Star) who is the commander here at Bagram. As the Soldiers where lined up to shake his hand he blew them off and didn't say a word as he went into the conference room to meet the General. As he finished, the vehicles took him to the ClamShell (pretty much a big top tent that military personnel can play basketball or work out in with weights) so he could take his publicity pictures playing basketball. He again shunned the opportunity to talk to Soldiers to thank them for their service. So really he was just here to make a showing for the American's back home that he is their candidate for President. I think that if you are going to make an effort to come all the way over here you would thank those that are providing the freedom that they are providing for you. I swear we got more thanks from the NBA Basketball Players or the Dallas Cowboy Cheerleaders than from one of the Senators, who wants to be the President of the United States. I just don't understand how anyone would want him to be our Commander-and-Chief. It was almost that he was scared to be around those that provide the freedom for him and our great country. If this is blunt and to the point I am sorry but I wanted you all to know what kind of caliber of person he really is. What you see in the news is all fake.
Update: Second-day coverage continues here.
I had a first hand view of Barrack Obama's "fact finding" mission, when he passed through this base. While I can't name it, it's one of the largest air bases in the region, with up to 8000 troops (depending on influxes and transients in mobilization/demobilization status), mostly Airmen and Soldiers, but some Marines, Sailors, Koreans, Japanese, Aussies, Brits, US Civil Service, contractors including KBR, Blackwater and Halliburton, among others in the news. The overwhelming majority of all of these are professional, courteous and disciplined. Problems are rare. Casualties are also rare. This base has a large hospital for evacuation—twenty plus beds. I have yet to see a casualty in one, though I am told there are about three evacuations a week through this region, of which two on average are things like sports injuries, vehicle accidents or duty related falls and such. You can tell from the news that the war is going well. The ghouls are now focusing on Afghanistan, since there is no blood to type with here. This oped is of course subjective and limited, but I will try to present the facts as I saw them. I wasn't able to see much, which makes a point all by itself. When his plane arrived (also containing Senators Reed and Hagel, but the news has hardly mentioned them), there was a "ramp freeze." This means if you are on the flight line, and not directly involved with the event in question, you stay where you are and don't move. For a combat flight arriving or departing, this takes about ten minutes, and involves the active runway and crossing taxiways only. For Obama's flight, this took 90 minutes, during which time a variety of military missions came grinding to a halt. Obviously, this visit was important, right? 95% of base wanted nothing to do with him. I have met three troops who support him, and literally hundreds who regard him as a buffoon, a charlatan, a hindrance to their mission or a flat out enemy of progress. Even when the rumors were publicly admitted, almost no one left their duty sections to try to see him, unless they were officers whose presence was officially required. Mister Obama's motorcade drove up from the flight line and entered the dining hall toward the end of lunch time. Diners were chased out and told to make other arrangements for food, in the middle of the duty day. Now, there are close to 8000 troops on the base and its nearby satellites. No one came up from the Army side (except perhaps a few ranking officers). The airbase resumed operation, once he cleared the flightline, as if nothing had happened. The dining hall holds about 300 people and was not full. The troops did not want to meet him and the feeling was apparently mutual. In attendance, besides the Official Entourage, were the base's senior officers, some support personnel, and a very few carefully vetted supporters who'd made special arrangements. No photos were allowed. No question and answer with the troops. No real acknowledgment that the troops existed. Obama left around 1530, during the Muslim Call to Prayer, so he's not a practicing Muslim. He was in a convoy guarded by (so I'm told) both State Department and Secret Service Personnel. Less than three hours… Within 48 hours he was in Afghanistan. It takes most troops longer than that to in-process and get cleared on safety, threats, policies and such. Yet he somehow made a strategic summary by not talking to anyone and not seeing anything. Twenty-four hours after that, he was in Kuwait, back here, and then home, so fast we didn't even know he arrived the second time at this base. I can't imagine any officer of the few he met told him anything other than what they tell the troops, and what their own leadership at the Pentagon tell them—we're winning. Our troops are stomping the guts out of the insurgency. The surge worked and is working. If the insurgents have to divert to Afghanistan, it means they can't fight in Iraq anymore. We should not change the rules and retreat with the enemy on the ropes as we did in Vietnam. We should finish kicking their teeth in. The Iraqi government now controls 10 of 18 provinces, with US assistance in the rest. Let us win the war. 90% of the troops I know, even those opposed to the war, say that is the way to win. Victory comes from winning, not from "change." In fact, the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs is on record as opposing Obama's strategic theory. Since he obviously knew in advance that's what they'd tell him, and since he didn't care to talk to the troops (we're told by the Left that the troops are horrified, shocked, forced to commit atrocities with tears in their eyes, distraught, burned out, fed up with losing, etc) and find out how they feel, and was barely in country long enough to need a shower and a change of clothes, we can only call this for what it is. A disgraceful PR stunt, using the troops as a platform for his ego and campaign. In comparison, I've seen four star generals and the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff on this base. They each held an all ranks call, met with and briefed the personnel, and took questions on every subject from tour length to uniform design to rules of engagement to weapon choice to long term policy, from the newest airmen to the senior NCO with TEN 120-180 day tours since Sep 11. It's very clear they want to know what the troops think, and to keep them informed of events. It's equally clear mister Obama does not. From here we must move to my op part of the oped. Obama clearly doesn't care about the troops, doesn't care about America, doesn't care about anything except hearing his own voice and the chance to sit at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue…From where he'll bring us the proven Democratic wartime leadership of Bosnia and the Balkans (US forces still there), Somalia (US forces prevailed despite being ill equipped by executive order, and taking heavy casualties), Haiti (what were we doing there again?), Desert One (oops?), Vietnam (where we snatched defeat from the jaws of victory), Korea (still there), WWI, and the fluke success of WWII won by such wonderful liberal notions as concentration camps for Japanese Americans, nukes, FBI investigations of waitresses who dated soldiers in case they were "morally corrupt" and the (valid) occupation of and continued presence in Italy, Japan and Germany for 60 years, which they are conveniently pretending won't happen with Iraq. That's not "change." That's "failure we can do without."
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at 11:04 AM | Comments (18) | Add Comment | Trackbacks (Suck)
Obama had good reason to skip meeting with our troops: they won't fall into slack-jawed swoons the moment he enters the room like his brainless minions do.
Obama also remarked that he had some spare time in Germany today and "didn't know what to do". What a slug.
Posted by: Pardo at July 24, 2008 11:22 AM (2uUgW)
Posted by: glenn at July 24, 2008 12:05 PM (zp+Xy)
Posted by: chuck at July 24, 2008 12:16 PM (jwJkW)
That would be my guess.
Posted by: Dan Irving at July 24, 2008 12:53 PM (zw8QA)
You think he cares about anyone else more? Don't believe it. Barack Obama doesn't think about anyone but himself. Even political stances, social philosophy, or heck, any cause, is subservient to the nodding achievements of ME and it matters not the approach, method or action nor the results or consequences.
Barack Obama is the Good Cause.
Posted by: Dusty at July 24, 2008 01:13 PM (1Lzs1)
Posted by: mag at July 24, 2008 01:19 PM (uBflb)
A CIC (even a prospective CIC) must at least offer the appearance of concern for his wounded subordinates. Bill Clinton (ever the opportunist) understood this. It appears Barack Obama does not. His actions are indicative of a degree of moral bankruptcy that should concern every citizen.
Posted by: Just Askin' at July 24, 2008 01:44 PM (esv00)
Posted by: joyce at July 24, 2008 03:27 PM (4gHqM)
Posted by: Saint Patton at July 24, 2008 03:43 PM (2uUgW)
This doesn't hold water. If it would be inappropriate, why did he allow his campaign staff to schedule the meeting in the first place?
The more I see of Obama, the more I'm seeing him as someone who's gotten used to getting away with extemporaneous lying, but hasn't quite come to grips with the changes that being on a national stage will give you. Especially in the age of "This is the Internet. We can fact-check your ass." So when he gets in hot water, he says something that sounds good on the surface. He doesn't realize that there are thousands of people out there willing to dig under the surface, where his off-the-cuff lie falls apart.
Only question is, how much influence do those people (mostly conservative bloggers) have over the American electorate? We'll find out this November; for myself, I have a feeling it won't be enough to keep Obama from being elected.
Look forward to Carter's second term, everyone.
Posted by: Robin Munn at July 24, 2008 04:08 PM (AdmFW)
Posted by: Robin Munn at July 24, 2008 04:09 PM (AdmFW)
Posted by: diogenes at July 24, 2008 04:18 PM (PMlL4)
In the past, I've noticed a slight leftward-leaning slant in the snopes.com editors' judgments, but in general they're pretty sound as far as research. And if by now you haven't learned to separate fact from opinion in a piece that mixes both, you need to read a lot more blogs. :-)
Posted by: Robin Munn at July 24, 2008 05:27 PM (AdmFW)
Posted by: dweign at July 24, 2008 05:29 PM (eytER)
It's a sad reflection on this website that my post from an hour ago was removed. What gives?
Oh, I don't know... your choice of language?
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at July 24, 2008 05:33 PM (HcgFD)
Posted by: dweign at July 24, 2008 05:51 PM (eytER)
"we're only free to disrespect U.S. Senators who want to learn what is best for America's future.
Learning by ignoring the military that made his photo-op tour possible? Do you people not realize how stupid you sound?
All you need to know about Obama is that if President Bush had ever followed this fool's advise, Saddam, Iran or Al Queda would, right now, be terrorizing the Iraqi people. A less obnoxious person would never have shown his face in a country for which he has campaign endlessly to leave to the barbarians.
Posted by: LogicalUS at July 24, 2008 06:08 PM (ew9vI)
Posted by: diogenes at July 24, 2008 06:21 PM (PMlL4)
We don't mind polysyllabic verbiage here. What CY objects to are words that are not commonly used in polite company.
If that's too "nuanced" for you to comprehend, I'll make it simpler: Don't swear, and CY probably won't remove your comments.
FWIW, my very-conservative USMC Staff Sergeant buddy who comments here as "Matt" had one of his comments removed by CY because he used a four-letter word that started with "s" and ended with "t". I saw the post myself, then when I returned to that thread later, it was gone, so I saw it "disappear" with my own eyes. In other words, CY is non-partisan when it comes to removing comments that include unacceptable language.
You may now apologize to all us regulars here for your baseless insinuation that we do not comprehend polysyllabic words.
Posted by: C-C-G at July 24, 2008 06:28 PM (e+Bm0)
In all honesty, he probably dumped the visit because he knew a majority of the troops would not go google eyed over him.
I am not saying that all of the troops are Conservatives, and I am not saying that none of the troops will not vote for him. I am sure there will be some that do (probably the ones with low GTs).
I would turn in my rocker before being used as a photo op for this (sorry I can't think of a clean way to articulate how I feel about him).
Posted by: Matt at July 24, 2008 07:01 PM (rHW2R)
Posted by: Don Kosin at July 24, 2008 07:42 PM (edP9E)
Dweign, I comprehend polysyllabic words. I may not quite be a regular here, but you can apologize to me too. And make it good, or else I may not accept it.
As for the actual topic of this post, maybe Obama was worried that he'd let the mask drop and make a comment to a wounded vet about their battle brothers getting "wasted".
Posted by: brando at July 24, 2008 07:44 PM (Gs5OS)
Posted by: Matt at July 24, 2008 07:48 PM (rHW2R)
He had some?
I may not quite be a regular here,
I'd consider you a regular.
Posted by: C-C-G at July 24, 2008 07:49 PM (e+Bm0)
Posted by: diogenes at July 24, 2008 07:52 PM (PMlL4)
Posted by: C-C-G at July 24, 2008 07:57 PM (e+Bm0)
No, Conservatives generally respect life, liberty, and the pursuit of hapiness. We even don't have a problem with 'hearing' you talk as long as it contains defensible logic/evidence.
However, from what I've read of your comments, logic/evidence is extremely lacking in most.
Posted by: Mark at July 24, 2008 08:38 PM (w/olL)
On the other hand, I'll lay dollars to donuts that the second one is absolutely genuine. I have a cousin who just got back from Iraq, and his e-mails read just like the second one does. And nothing he says should be in the least surprising, not just as regards Obama, but anyone flying through on a celebrity photo-op. If I remember correctly, Obama himself criticized this type of overseas visit, saying (correctly, for a change) that he learned a lot more traveling to Kenya as a private citizen, and living in Indonesia, than congress folks learned on a fact-finding trip. And on most fact-finding trips, the congress critters actually try to find out some facts, which was clearly low on Obama's priority list.
So, anyway, he now has this incredible new understanding of Iraq and Afghanistan, guess we'll see what he does with it. Of course, he could have gained the same level (or more) of understanding if he'd just stuck around for the entire Petraeus testimony at the Senate, instead of just popping in to voice his "question" (which was nothing more than a slander of the General's credibility and a chance to snark for his base.)
Posted by: notropis at July 24, 2008 08:43 PM (nNqMU)
"If the winds of politics change to the bad, I will stand with Islam". B Hussein O (In his book in his words) How can any honest person say he's not Islamic?
Posted by: Scrapiron at July 24, 2008 09:10 PM (I4yBD)
I know writing letters or emails takes time. But if Obama's lies and half-truths go unchallenged, we may very well regret passing up this opportunity to expose him for what he is.
God bless our troops and our President, George W. Bush. Vote for John McCain.
www.nextgenerationcorp.com/nextgenblog/
Posted by: Adrian Soto at July 24, 2008 09:31 PM (jCf8R)
SMEAR EMAIL
'I will stand with the Muslims should the political winds shift in an ugly direction.'
FACT
FULL QUOTE From Audacity of Hope:
"Whenever I appear before immigrant audiences, I can count on some good-natured ribbing from my staff after my speech; according to them, my remarks always follow a three-part structure: "I am your friend," "[Fill in the home country] has been a cradle of civilization," and "You embody the American dream." They're right, my message is simple, for what I've come to understand is that my mere presence before these newly minted Americans serves notice that they matter, that they are voters critical to my success and full-fledged citizens deserving of respect.
"Of course, not all my conversations in immigrant communities follow this easy pattern. In the wake of 9/11, my meetings with Arab and Pakistani Americans, for example, have a more urgent quality, for the stories of detentions and FBI questioning and hard stares from neighbors have shaken their sense of security and belonging. They have been reminded that the history of immigration in this country has a dark underbelly; they need specific assurances that their citizenship really means something, that America has learned the right lessons from the Japanese internments during World War II, and that I will stand with them should the political winds shift in an ugly direction." [Page 260-261]
Hope that's not too long, C-Y, but sometimes it takes more than a sentence or two to tell the truth.
Posted by: diogenes at July 24, 2008 09:47 PM (PMlL4)
Some pretty thick cognitive blinders you got on there. He's never said anything that maligned the soldiers in Iraq, or anywhere else. He's extolled their service. He's made clear that it's the strategic decisions from the civilian leadership that have failed, the ones that led us into this war and the many other boneheaded decisions subsequent to that.
Posted by: Arbotreeist at July 24, 2008 10:50 PM (6I6OG)
And "ugly" of course means any common-sense anti-terror initiatives that homegrown jihadists and their ACLU-type enablers disapprove of.
All I know is that Obambi's precious Arabs and Pakistanis better learn to police their own. If there IS a successful attack sometime in the next few years not even President HopeyChangey himself is going to save them from being ostracised by the rest of society (at best). If they don't keep their house in order, someone WILL do it for them, sooner or later.
Posted by: Nine-of-Diamonds at July 24, 2008 10:55 PM (sk9If)
It's so sad to see that even some in America think that this kind of attitude is OK, that we can make blanket threats against a whole nationality, a whole race, a whole religion.
What surprises me is that, with all these vets in here that fought for America, somebody else doesn't stand up and say "Hey, wait a second...."
Posted by: diogenes at July 24, 2008 11:34 PM (PMlL4)
I've got a call in to Senator Byrd's(D-WV) office to see if I can borrow his copy.
Posted by: Gil at July 24, 2008 11:58 PM (2uUgW)
">Daily News
[edited by siteowner to insert html link, remove full-text copy that violates fair use]
Posted by: Islandgirl45 at July 25, 2008 12:44 AM (nfxGg)
Actually, I think that everything you quoted refers only to the first e-mail C-Y posted (the one dealing with Afghanistan.) Nothing I can see in your references seems to address the second e-mail (from Iraq) at all.
I figured the first one was suspicious; the second one seems much more believable.
Posted by: notropis at July 25, 2008 01:42 AM (nNqMU)
Brother. I have been there four (or is it five, I lost count) times now, and I still do not have an incredible understanding of Iraq. One visit in the span of several years does nothing to educate you. As he has chosen to take a political route in this topic, instead of listening to those SMEs on the deck, he shows just how little understanding he has. Yes we will see what he does with it. My guess is he will continue to pander to the center until the election, then do as the rest of the far left wants.
Posted by: Matt at July 25, 2008 04:32 AM (rHW2R)
He's said that they were the problem, that their presence in Iraq was causing more harm than good and that we need to get them out. If that's extolling their service, I'd like to visit your planet.
Posted by: Pablo at July 25, 2008 07:17 AM (yTndK)
Posted by: Jack Lacton at July 25, 2008 08:34 AM (5vojX)
Ayep. The translation of "Pakistan" is "land of the pure"; it was intended as an Islamic state from the very beginning, and has worked steadily to chase out/convert/kill all practitioners of other religions.
Posted by: Rob Crawford at July 25, 2008 08:43 AM (IuKAf)
The second email says much of the same thing to me: "Can't name the air base...Obama clearly doesn't care about the troops, doesn't care about America..."
I see red flags all through it. It just lacks the most blatant tip-off of "What you see in the news is all fake."
I read half a dozen or more different political blogs/Web sites/news pages to get a variety of viewpoints on McCain, Obama and political issues of the day. I can't imagine taking something that slimes one candidate as the Gospel without checking it out online myself. There are nuts out there spreading sleaze about McCain as well, and I discount their stuff as fake, too.
All I'm saying is, all these angry postings about Obama are based on two anonymous email messages. People really should take them with a shaker of salt. At least do some checking first.
Posted by: Islandgirl45 at July 25, 2008 09:28 AM (nfxGg)
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at July 25, 2008 10:07 AM (xNV2a)
On The Surge: McCain Was Sorta Right, Obama Was Dead Never Wrong
It is rather amusing watching the media and lefty bloggers chase after John McCain for the candidate's continued insistence that the surge set the stage for the Sahawah or Awakening movement. McCain may be using questionable terminology when claiming that the surge predated the awakening, but only if we're talking about the increase in troop strength, which alone would have accomplished nothing.
What made the surge successful—and what McCain can quite fairly argue—is that the counterinsurgency doctrine that began prior to the formation of the Sahawah movement and capitalized on the growing Sunni discontent with al Qaeda is part of or are at least a precursor to the official surge of additional U.S. troops into Iraq. Critics in the media and blogosphere somehow seem to be under the delusion that merely an increase in troop strength was the reason for the surge succeeding, but it was changes in strategy and tactics used by the greater number of soldiers that made the difference. Of course, how are liberals supposed to get their facts straight when even their experts can't? McCain was right to go after Barack Obama's confused history of the surge the Sahawah movement, the decline of Shia militias, and the influence political and military movement by U.S. forces had in making each possible. American forces provided support, funding, material, and often carried out raids on behalf of the Sunni tribes battling al Qaeda. Perhaps the Sunni tribes could have eradicated al Qaeda in time on their own—they had the home field advantage—, but it is a incontrovertible historical fact that they did not achieve their success without substantial U.S. assistance. Did the Sunni Awakening movement officially begin before the official start of the surge? Yes. Did it begin without any U.S. involvement? No. Could it have succeeded? We'll never know. It should worry the American people that Barack Obama does not seem to understand any of this. Likewise, the more recent decline of Shia militias occurred because U.S. force trained and equipped the Iraqi the IA forces that stormed Barsa and Sadr City, we provided air and ground support during those raids, and of course, were securing other areas which freed up Iraqi forces to take the lead in these assaults which seem to have largely broken the Madhi Army and related Shia gangs. The success of Iraqi security forces over Shia militias did not happen in a vacuum, but because of substantial U.S. involvement. Barack Obama does not seem to understand this. The security gains made in Iraq simply would not have occurred as quickly or as successfully as they did without U.S. forces. That Barack Obama would try to minimize that is understandable, as it to admit American forces were vital to the current state of affairs in Iraq would be an admission that he was wrong about the surge, and as we all know, Barack Obama is never wrong. And so Barack Obama wasn't wrong about standing against the surge. He was not wrong for advocating the abandonment of the Iraqi people when things got tough. Barack Obama is never wrong. And just pray the freshman senator isn't elected to a position where he'll "never be wrong" about issues affecting your life.Posted by: Confederate Yankee at 09:30 AM | Comments (125) | Add Comment | Trackbacks (Suck)
Posted by: Yankee Yankee at July 24, 2008 10:38 AM (8aps6)
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at July 24, 2008 10:40 AM (HcgFD)
Posted by: Dan Irving at July 24, 2008 10:44 AM (zw8QA)
Posted by: brando at July 24, 2008 11:14 AM (qzOby)
Then again, YY has decided that Obama really wasn't against the surge, he was just nuancing the debate way back then.
You can lead a liberal to knowledge but you can't make him think.
Posted by: Gil at July 24, 2008 11:27 AM (2uUgW)
Posted by: Roy Mustang at July 24, 2008 11:37 AM (F1fj9)
1. Moderator drones on and on on subjects of his choosing.
2. Opposing viewpoint, which is nicely summarized by a writer on a national news site, is posted.
3. Moderator deletes opposing viewpoint.
I guess "lengthy" posts aren't allowed, especially if they effectively refute the viewpoint expressed by Herr Moderator.
This confirms it: this site is for the cyber equivalent of a bunch of buddies going down to the neighborhood bar and sharing beers all night long. You don't want to think, you don't want to consider opposing viewpoints. You want to sit around and grouse together.
So be it.
Posted by: diogenes at July 24, 2008 12:41 PM (PMlL4)
fyi, I don't mind linking, and I don't mind quoting, but such extensive quotation violates "fair use" and would generally qualify as comment spam.
I'm deleting this comment as a result. Please edit it down to a paragraph or 2, or provide a paraphrase with the link.
Thanks
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at July 24, 2008 12:44 PM (HcgFD)
Diogenes: 0
Posted by: Dan Irving at July 24, 2008 12:55 PM (zw8QA)
Learn how to link or condense your bloviating to less than four hundred pages, you dope.
Posted by: Gil at July 24, 2008 01:11 PM (2uUgW)
Diogenes didn't get his opus published here?
If only it was his. He cut and pasted the first five paragraphs of Salon.com article.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at July 24, 2008 01:14 PM (HcgFD)
Link it, if I want to read it I will.
Posted by: Gil at July 24, 2008 01:46 PM (2uUgW)
Posted by: Gil at July 24, 2008 01:47 PM (2uUgW)
Obama miscountts teh number of states in AMERICA by 7, claims to be on a Congressional commitee he was never on, says he plans to be President for TEN years,and claims that even though the Surge worked, he STILL would've opposed it because it helped Bush...
And you clowns are concerned about the Czechs ans Slovaks?
Must be nice to have a (liberal's) sense of priorities.
Posted by: DaveP. at July 24, 2008 03:43 PM (5os92)
Posted by: DaveP. at July 24, 2008 03:45 PM (5os92)
Posted by: diogenes at July 24, 2008 03:48 PM (PMlL4)
You really do support McCain in all things: even the chronology of the e-mail got switched. Was that part of The Surge, too?
Posted by: diogenes at July 24, 2008 03:53 PM (PMlL4)
So, of course, do places like DailyKOS or DemocraticUnderground. If you wanna see real censorship in action, go there and post something complimentary to conservatives.
In fact, I wish you would try that experiment I just suggested. It might teach you a thing or two. But, I am 99.999% certain you don't have the cojones.
Posted by: C-C-G at July 24, 2008 04:54 PM (e+Bm0)
When you're looking for that honest man, don't bother checking a mirror...
Posted by: DaveP. at July 24, 2008 04:54 PM (5os92)
Posted by: diogenes at July 24, 2008 04:59 PM (PMlL4)
Posted by: C-C-G at July 24, 2008 06:30 PM (e+Bm0)
Republicans don't have to meet your narrow standards.
Americans don't have to meet your narrow standards.
You and your buddies may set the rules on this blog, and you may drive the discussion here, but you don't have that power in the real world. Thank God.
Posted by: diogenes at July 24, 2008 07:22 PM (PMlL4)
And you nicely skipped over the part about me being honest, the "honest man" that the real Diogenes was seeking. Keep spinning, maybe someday you'll strike oil.
Posted by: C-C-G at July 24, 2008 07:31 PM (e+Bm0)
Posted by: diogenes at July 24, 2008 07:41 PM (PMlL4)
You're rapidly becoming boring, diogenes. I think it's time for you to head back to Kos or DU with your wonderful story of how you showed all us neanderthals what a superior debater you are.
Posted by: C-C-G at July 24, 2008 07:52 PM (e+Bm0)
Posted by: diogenes at July 24, 2008 07:54 PM (PMlL4)
Next, you attack me for not believing you.
Posted by: C-C-G at July 24, 2008 07:55 PM (e+Bm0)
Posted by: diogenes at July 24, 2008 08:00 PM (PMlL4)
http://www.google.com/search?q=28articles&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8
Cheers,
Arch
A Confederate Confederate
Posted by: arch at July 25, 2008 07:20 AM (ZvmZx)
But Petraeus wasn't commander when the anbar awakening occured. Please try to keep up.
Posted by: Bob at July 25, 2008 03:42 PM (c2FAa)
Actually, Petraeus put the COIN tactics in play in 2003 when he was commanding the 101st Airborne in Mosul. The Anbar Awakening was in the Summer of 2006. When he left, the situation reverted back.
I never said that Petraeus was commander during Anbar. The fact that our troops knew about the success Petraeus achieved and how he did it.
COIN is all about the competing narratives. Al Qaeda said "anyone who cooperates with the US or government forces will be killed." We said "we're here to help you." The local tribal leaders said, "we want American forces out of Iraq." The Marines of II MEF said, "we want to go home too."
Our guys mounted a campaign to move forces in towns and protect the locals. The locals expressed fear that Al Qaeda would return to which the marines replied, "they're dead or running for the border." Actions spoke louder than words.
The insurgency became a battle between Sunni tribes and Al Qaeda.
Arch
Posted by: arch at July 25, 2008 04:19 PM (ZvmZx)
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