Religion and Politics
Well, let's throw up a bit of controversy here and see what happens, shall we? How about we introduce the two things that you're not supposed to talk about in polite company: religion and politics -- and let's mix them up. Here's my theory:
You cannot have politics and government without religion
This post has been floating around in my head for quite some time now, and after reading Joe Carter's post on "An Open Letter to the Religious Right, I'm finally putting it into words.
Of course, to set the boundaries, I'll define each one. Politics/government, in this instance, means the set of rules, rulers, and leaders who shape a people, including the laws, punishment, and organization of the country. Religion is simply an organized set of beliefs. And if you claim that you have no religion, that is a religion, too, because if you don't have a set of beliefs, you're not capable of reading this because your IQ is too low.
Everyone has some set of beliefs. Members of organized religions may have a book or guide or something that helps them determine their beliefs. Others may have arrived at their own set of beliefs through self-discovery or self-exploration. Others may have attained some "zen" state and discovered them. No matter which way they came about, everyone has some beliefs. I submit that a person's set of beliefs, or religion, will determine what sort of government they will support. Your worldview IS reflected in your opinions on government and politics. Now, while some say that religion shouldn't matter in politics, I say that is completely incorrect.Religion is a PRIMARY determinent in government and politics.
In other words, your religion absolutely matters when you're being selected (or appointed, or annointed) for a government or political position. Why? Because your belief system demands it. Whatever your belief system is, it WILL be reflected in your actions as a government official, whether you want it to or not. Recently in an interview with George Allen, he reacted angrily when he was questioned about his mother's religion. While indeed, one's relatives religions don't matter a great deal, a candidate's religion does. And, in fact, asking about one's primary caregiver -- the person who most likely highly influenced thinking while growing up -- seems to be rather valid and important. Some might say that people can separate their religious beliefs from their political decisions -- that's simply not possible, by definition. If you make the decision, that decision is based on your belief system. For example, political decisions regarding abortion: If a politician says that their religious beliefs mandate that there be no abortions, but they vote for allowing abortions because they claim that they cannot force their religious beliefs on someone else, they just did. The part that was left out was the logical extension of their religion -- that the government should not be used to enforce other religious decisions. In other words, the religious system described by the ficticious politician above is that abortion is wrong, but everyone should be allowed to do it. That's a position, and that's part of that politician's set of beliefs, whether he wants it to be or not. Any decision made by a politician IS a reflection of their religious beliefs. Even though the U.S. Constitution says that no religious test shall be required to serve in a government position, nor shall Congress make any laws establishing religion, every single law and position taken by a politician IS their religion. So, having established that ALL government decisions are a result of religion, the only question remaining for those few in the world who have free elections is "Which religion do you want represented by your government?" In the United States, there are a variety to choose from. You can select the Muslim religion, as some in MN have done. However, as with any other candidate, realize that the religious beliefs WILL influence this person's decisions when making laws and voting for freedoms and laws. You could select atheists who claim no God. Realize, then, in this case that these elected officials will make all decisions based on their own reality and biases, just like another other elected official. A valid question for these politicians might be, "From where do rights and laws derive?" You can select Christians who will base all their decisions on the Bible -- or other Christians who will base their decisions on themselves. By just having a label of a certain religion, one cannot tell for sure what a government official will do -- but no matter which type you select, their religion will absolutely determine what they will do once elected. Religion and politics DO mix -- completely and continuously.
Comments
1
Sorry, ogre, totally off the subject, but I do not have access to email at the moment. You have to check this out and see the moonbats on parade:
http://impeachbush.meetup.com/356/?gj=sj5
It is on Saturday in Charlotte.
http://impeachbush.meetup.com/356/?gj=sj5
It is on Saturday in Charlotte.
Posted by: William Teach at September 26, 2006 04:29 PM (doAuV)
2
I have been watching that very closely. I think I might attend with camera... This is the same group that met downtown Saturday and clashed with police.
Posted by: Ogre at September 26, 2006 04:54 PM (oifEm)
3
IMHO, our Declaration and Constitution are divinely inspired documents.
Posted by: DagneyT at September 26, 2006 10:19 PM (pFR9u)
4
I agree, Dagney, but there are more than a few who would claim that they're not, despite the wording used in them.
Posted by: Ogre at September 26, 2006 11:09 PM (QmGzr)
5
a question was raised in my ethics class recently that I have been struggling with and I was hoping you could answer it.
I was raised Roman Catholic and obviously was taught that god created EVERYTHING.
however the professor asked us the other day why murder was wrong, because God said so or because it causes pain and suffering etc.
obviously the answer is because it causes pain, not simply because god says so. If this much is true than the morality that we adhere to is something seperate from god and thus was not created by him. Even if he did create the moral code he had to have reasons for his logic or he would be irrational. If I am to accept that morality is not simply a product of god than how can I continue to accept God in the traditional sense?
I was raised Roman Catholic and obviously was taught that god created EVERYTHING.
however the professor asked us the other day why murder was wrong, because God said so or because it causes pain and suffering etc.
obviously the answer is because it causes pain, not simply because god says so. If this much is true than the morality that we adhere to is something seperate from god and thus was not created by him. Even if he did create the moral code he had to have reasons for his logic or he would be irrational. If I am to accept that morality is not simply a product of god than how can I continue to accept God in the traditional sense?
Posted by: Brian at September 26, 2006 11:31 PM (Fvkgc)
6
Why is the obvious answer "because it causes pain?" What if the pain is because your body is rebelling and requiring action of the one being attacked? And what about murders that cause no pain (like by poisoning or lethal injection)? I question your "obvious" answer.
Posted by: Ogre at September 26, 2006 11:34 PM (QmGzr)
7
the actual act of murder is not the point. The point is that murder or whatever you decide is more applicable, is wrong regardless of god saying it is wrong
Posted by: brian at September 27, 2006 12:28 AM (Fvkgc)
8
But therein lies the rub. WHY is it wrong? You have stated that it is wrong -- says who? Certainly Darwin would absolutely disagree. If all life is survival of the fittest then the strong SHOULD murder the weak because it means the strong will survive. Murder certainly isn't wrong in the animal kingdom, so WHY is it wrong for people?
Posted by: Ogre at September 27, 2006 09:01 AM (QmGzr)
9
ogre murder doesnt matter, you can pick whatever act you want and apply the same theory, so if you think murder is ok than surely there must be some act that you thought was wrong before god said so. Rape. I think Rape is wrong no matter what god says.
Posted by: brian at September 27, 2006 04:19 PM (Z4rnY)
10
You're changing the terms. The question doesn't change: WHY? Says who?
At first you claimed that murder was wrong because it was painful. Then you changed and said that murder was wrong because it's wrong. Now you're saying that rape is wrong because it's wrong. You're missing the point of me and the ethics professor: WHY is it wrong? What about the action makes it wrong? How did you decide that?
At first you claimed that murder was wrong because it was painful. Then you changed and said that murder was wrong because it's wrong. Now you're saying that rape is wrong because it's wrong. You're missing the point of me and the ethics professor: WHY is it wrong? What about the action makes it wrong? How did you decide that?
Posted by: Ogre at September 27, 2006 05:31 PM (oifEm)
11
Alright than I am saying that there is a moral code in place seperate from god that tells me that raping a woman is wrong. Do you believe that the only reason rape is wrong is because god says so?
Posted by: brian at September 27, 2006 06:11 PM (Z4rnY)
12
Alright, your moral code decides what is wrong and what is right. Where did that come from?
Posted by: Ogre at September 27, 2006 07:56 PM (oifEm)
13
from my own sense of self and my personal conception of right and wrong, having nothing to do with god. again, do you believe there is anything wrong with rape other than the fact that god says it is wrong?
Posted by: brian at September 27, 2006 09:26 PM (Z4rnY)
14
So we're back to your original question. You stated that you were a Catholic that was struggling with your belief system and were questioning if murder was wrong because God said it was wrong.
Now you state that you, personally, have decided that murder is wrong because YOU say it's wrong. That's fine, that's your belief system. Of course, when you subscribe to that system of beliefs, every single person gets to decide for themselves exactly what is right and wrong. If I disagree with you, then my entire belief system can be quite literally anything I want it to be, including claiming that rape and murder are not actually "wrong."
On the other hand, Christians believe that God created Man and gave him everything that he has including free will, reason, and a moral code. Christians believe that because God created man that the personal conception of right and wrong that you have determined was put there by God himself.
If that is the case, then everyone has the same basic moral code impressed upon them and only the truly evil (due to free will) disagree with that God-inspired written on everyone's heart moral code.
Now you state that you, personally, have decided that murder is wrong because YOU say it's wrong. That's fine, that's your belief system. Of course, when you subscribe to that system of beliefs, every single person gets to decide for themselves exactly what is right and wrong. If I disagree with you, then my entire belief system can be quite literally anything I want it to be, including claiming that rape and murder are not actually "wrong."
On the other hand, Christians believe that God created Man and gave him everything that he has including free will, reason, and a moral code. Christians believe that because God created man that the personal conception of right and wrong that you have determined was put there by God himself.
If that is the case, then everyone has the same basic moral code impressed upon them and only the truly evil (due to free will) disagree with that God-inspired written on everyone's heart moral code.
Posted by: Ogre at September 27, 2006 09:49 PM (QmGzr)
15
Ogre, I think I know where he is coming from. What he is saying is that even if god said it is wrong that does not mean it is wrong. It is up to the person to decide that. The article seems to push that religion is the main reason for a person's decision. I disagree with that but realize it plays a major role. Brian is trying to state that other things influence morals as well. Even atheist have morals, though they differ from person to person just as everyone else.
Brian, Ogre is trying to say every creature on Earth has the right to make its own decision as to what it believes is right and wrong. He, like the article, is trying to say religion is one factor to a persons view. Ogre is also trying to say that a label such as Christian, Buddhist, Muslim, Hindu, or Jew does not mean he will have the same morals as everyone else, but also does not mean he is influenced solely by there religion. Labels in general are bad. Politics these days should show that. Republicans and Democrats are just a broad title, and, for the most part only allow for two people to run for election against each other. This does not reference how they vote.
Just remember one thing Brian. You are who you are based on your environment with a little based on your DNA. Everything from your family, religion, community, and culture both locally and worldwide influence your morals and opinions.
Brian, Ogre is trying to say every creature on Earth has the right to make its own decision as to what it believes is right and wrong. He, like the article, is trying to say religion is one factor to a persons view. Ogre is also trying to say that a label such as Christian, Buddhist, Muslim, Hindu, or Jew does not mean he will have the same morals as everyone else, but also does not mean he is influenced solely by there religion. Labels in general are bad. Politics these days should show that. Republicans and Democrats are just a broad title, and, for the most part only allow for two people to run for election against each other. This does not reference how they vote.
Just remember one thing Brian. You are who you are based on your environment with a little based on your DNA. Everything from your family, religion, community, and culture both locally and worldwide influence your morals and opinions.
Posted by: Arbitratorofall at September 28, 2006 12:33 AM (5+Jvh)
16
I know it's a minor point, but I am of the opinion that anyone's decisions ARE based on their religion -- even if that religion is atheism. If the word "religion" is defined to mean a person's belief system, then no matter what their belief system, whether it includes a god or not, that IS their religion. That's the point of the article.
So sure, everyone does have morals. Christians believe that all those morals come from God. Others believe they come from man.
Some will attempt to argue there are other possibilities, but if the morals didn't come from some supernatural source, then they came from Man. I know the Charlotte Capitalist, in particular, argues vehemently against God and Man, claiming "Reason" is King. I would submit that either Reason is Man-created or Supernatural. If is has always been, then it had to be created by something -- otherwise Man created it.
So sure, everyone does have morals. Christians believe that all those morals come from God. Others believe they come from man.
Some will attempt to argue there are other possibilities, but if the morals didn't come from some supernatural source, then they came from Man. I know the Charlotte Capitalist, in particular, argues vehemently against God and Man, claiming "Reason" is King. I would submit that either Reason is Man-created or Supernatural. If is has always been, then it had to be created by something -- otherwise Man created it.
Posted by: Ogre at September 28, 2006 01:00 AM (QmGzr)
17
once again ogre do you believe that rape is wrong only because god says that it is wrong. And even assuming that god did create man with free will he must of had a reason for giving us free will, a reason that he did not create. Otherwise, he would be irrational. If this much is true than what else could god not have created?
Posted by: brian at September 28, 2006 01:32 AM (Z4rnY)
18
So apparently we have now changed the question. One can only assume your initial setup for your question, your claim to be a Catholic who was questioning, was a lie. That would make a you a troll who is only trying to cause trouble and evoke reactions, not have a productive discussion.
Posted by: Ogre at September 28, 2006 09:00 AM (QmGzr)
19
absolutley and unequivicably that is not the case. I can understand why you would think that if perhaps my comments have become emotional but I promise you that was not my intent.
Posted by: brian at September 28, 2006 04:30 PM (Z4rnY)
20
Then why have you veered so far from the point of the post and the point of your question? The point of the post is that you cannot have government without SOME belief system. Your ethics question was attempting to claim that murder is not wrong because God says so, but because it causes pain.
So what does this have to do with me, personally, and my opinion on rape?
So what does this have to do with me, personally, and my opinion on rape?
Posted by: Ogre at September 28, 2006 04:58 PM (oifEm)
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