Reading on Illegal Immigration
A couple quick links to posts that provide FACTS instead of the b.s. the immigrant apologists will provide you with:
Underlying Agenda of Illegals Myth vs. Fact on Illegal Immigration
Comments
1
I don't understand why so many Americans are complaining about having an unlimited supply of low-wage workforce on hand. Most developped countries are experiencing a declining workforce population. Which problem would Americans rather have?
Posted by: Saskboy at May 01, 2006 07:40 PM (c6g2h)
2
It's not about the workforce.
It's about America, as a country. It's about the hundreds of billions of dollars these "workers" are costing. It's about the loss of the American heritage.
It's about America, as a country. It's about the hundreds of billions of dollars these "workers" are costing. It's about the loss of the American heritage.
Posted by: Ogre at May 01, 2006 07:47 PM (/k+l4)
3
"It's about the loss of the American heritage."
What is that supposed to mean? The American heritage is all about immigration involving people the general American population is suspicious of, and doesn't want.
Immigrants don't simply cost money, they make it too. You can't count the expenses without counting the revenue to get the new loss or gain.
What is that supposed to mean? The American heritage is all about immigration involving people the general American population is suspicious of, and doesn't want.
Immigrants don't simply cost money, they make it too. You can't count the expenses without counting the revenue to get the new loss or gain.
Posted by: Saskboy at May 02, 2006 01:43 AM (c6g2h)
4
Sure, like not celebrating July 4th and bastardizing the Star-Spangled Banner, right? No, the American Heritage does not speak Spanish and celebrate Cinco de Mayo.
And you want to count money? Ok, if you work and generate $5 but cost the government $100, who wins? Not me, the working person. Sorry, they cost BILLIONS more than they contribute. It's a fact.
And you want to count money? Ok, if you work and generate $5 but cost the government $100, who wins? Not me, the working person. Sorry, they cost BILLIONS more than they contribute. It's a fact.
Posted by: Ogre at May 02, 2006 01:59 AM (blszc)
Posted by: Ogre at May 02, 2006 02:00 AM (blszc)
6
I just don't see the big deal I guess. My country is united and has more than one official language. Everyone celebrates one national holiday, but what's the harm in a culture having a nother day to celebrate? Do you ever partake in St. Patrick's Day celebrations perhaps?
"Sorry, they cost BILLIONS more than they contribute. It's a fact."
With 'facts' like that it's hard to have a discussion.
"Sorry, they cost BILLIONS more than they contribute. It's a fact."
With 'facts' like that it's hard to have a discussion.
Posted by: Saskboy at May 02, 2006 02:16 AM (c6g2h)
7
If American culture and heritage is so weak as to be destroyed by a Spanish version of the National Anthem and Cinco de Mayo then perhaps its time to consider rethinking the culture. Perhaps multiculturalism, tolerance and inclusive immigration policy, or hell, spending enough money on education so that more than 50% of your high school grads can point to their own state on a map (20% can't point to America itself. Be proud) might help.
My experience is that diversity contributes to a culture, rather than detracting from it.
While Illegal-Immigrants do cost your economy money, the racial hatred inspired by rhetoric against them has been far, far more damaging historically.
My experience is that diversity contributes to a culture, rather than detracting from it.
While Illegal-Immigrants do cost your economy money, the racial hatred inspired by rhetoric against them has been far, far more damaging historically.
Posted by: Jacob Hunter at May 02, 2006 02:45 AM (Z8crZ)
8
Saskboy, I'm sorry that you don't like facts.
Jacob -- can you say "10 million criminal immigrants?" No, we do NOT need more multiculturalism, we need LESS. Diversity for diversity's sake is completely wrong everywhere but a socialist or totalitarian government where the government tells everyone what to do, whether they like it or not (gee, kind of like the USA today).
You might think it's racist to dislike criminals -- but that's not the actual definition of criminal. Sure, it's prejudice -- but I'm prejudiced against rapists and murderers, too -- no matter what "race" they belong to.
Jacob -- can you say "10 million criminal immigrants?" No, we do NOT need more multiculturalism, we need LESS. Diversity for diversity's sake is completely wrong everywhere but a socialist or totalitarian government where the government tells everyone what to do, whether they like it or not (gee, kind of like the USA today).
You might think it's racist to dislike criminals -- but that's not the actual definition of criminal. Sure, it's prejudice -- but I'm prejudiced against rapists and murderers, too -- no matter what "race" they belong to.
Posted by: Ogre at May 02, 2006 02:55 AM (blszc)
9
10 Million people cross the border, despite people such as yourself, because they are so desperate for the kind of life you take for granted.
Can you honestly compare people like that to murders and rapists?
Can you honestly compare people like that to murders and rapists?
Posted by: Jacob Hunter at May 02, 2006 03:06 AM (Z8crZ)
10
It's not that I don't like facts, it's that I was being polite and not telling you straight up that your "facts" are wrong.
Posted by: Saskboy at May 02, 2006 04:38 AM (c6g2h)
11
Jacob, they've both broken the law. Why is that so impossible for people to understand? If we're going to ignore the law in one case, there's no logical reason to NOT ignore it in another. If those who break the law decide the immigration laws aren't any good, then why can't rapists decide that law isn't any good, too?
You know, we could just solve all our problems with rapists if we'd just remove the law, you know. It would be more tolerant and accepting of other cultures if we would just let people sacrifice humans here in America. Things would be so much more peaceful because cannibals don't like that law.
Saskboy, again, I'm very sorry that you don't like the FACT that criminal aliens simply take MUCH, MUCH more than they provide in America today.
You know, we could just solve all our problems with rapists if we'd just remove the law, you know. It would be more tolerant and accepting of other cultures if we would just let people sacrifice humans here in America. Things would be so much more peaceful because cannibals don't like that law.
Saskboy, again, I'm very sorry that you don't like the FACT that criminal aliens simply take MUCH, MUCH more than they provide in America today.
Posted by: Ogre at May 02, 2006 11:30 AM (/k+l4)
12
I'm afraid that Sack boy is twisting this debate just like the media, leaving off one very important word, "illegal", in order to craft the debate into something it is not. There is a process in which they can get here legally, and then there wouldn't be a problem. Sackboy ignores facts, because he is thinking in terms of some grandiose idealism where he thinks he is better than you, and that you are a racist bigot that hates all brown people. He refuses to look at it in terms that are real. Why do you think so many people are upset Sackboy? Is it just that sooo many Americans are racists?
The truth is that these Mexicans are being payed slave wages, and that is inhumane and racist. Lets get that loophole done away with, so they can be payed fair wages here, and be here legally.
What I want to know Sackboy is if you enjoy paying taxes so illegal aliens can leech off and get free educations, etc.???
The truth is that these Mexicans are being payed slave wages, and that is inhumane and racist. Lets get that loophole done away with, so they can be payed fair wages here, and be here legally.
What I want to know Sackboy is if you enjoy paying taxes so illegal aliens can leech off and get free educations, etc.???
Posted by: Jay at May 02, 2006 11:50 AM (2FcUc)
13
Sounds like Sask is from Canada, if I'm reading "My country is united and has more than one official language" correctly.
If so, Sask, honey - how often in the past 50 years has Quebec wanted to seceed (sp) again? Just wondering.
And to reiterate - we LOVE immigrants here in America. LOVE them: they are a joy and an honor, because they come here and forsake their original country and alliegances. They take part in and contribute enormously to this country.
Of course, they do it legally.
As for those lawbreakers that everyone seems to want to call "immigrants" "migtants" and "those pooooor people you nasty Americans are being so mean to" - if they want to get here so badly, let them do it LEGALLY.
Otherwise, as far as I'm concerned, they're criminals. We do NOT need more criminals, we have enough of our own thankyouverymuch.
-- R'cat
CatHouseChat.com
If so, Sask, honey - how often in the past 50 years has Quebec wanted to seceed (sp) again? Just wondering.
And to reiterate - we LOVE immigrants here in America. LOVE them: they are a joy and an honor, because they come here and forsake their original country and alliegances. They take part in and contribute enormously to this country.
Of course, they do it legally.
As for those lawbreakers that everyone seems to want to call "immigrants" "migtants" and "those pooooor people you nasty Americans are being so mean to" - if they want to get here so badly, let them do it LEGALLY.
Otherwise, as far as I'm concerned, they're criminals. We do NOT need more criminals, we have enough of our own thankyouverymuch.
-- R'cat
CatHouseChat.com
Posted by: Romeocat at May 02, 2006 12:02 PM (VoQwT)
Posted by: Romeocat at May 02, 2006 02:34 PM (VoQwT)
15
Jacob, the kind of life we take for granted? We work hard for this life, and it is only because of everybody is society working towards a vetter life that we have this "life we take for granted". When you swamp the society with millions more people than it needs, the quality of life drops for all because there is only so much to go around. Criminal aliens that sneak in and increase the population in ways that are beyond the control of our society lessen the amount of resources available for everyone.
But I imagine that this concept is too far advanced for you to understand, judging by the fact that you believe that money is the problem in education. Tell me Jacob? How much money would I have to pay someone before you aquired the necessary level of intelligence to understand that a law is a law?
Sackboy.....either frame the argument honestly or don't debate. It is ILLEGAL immigration.
Multiculturalism is a stain on the history of this country.
But I imagine that this concept is too far advanced for you to understand, judging by the fact that you believe that money is the problem in education. Tell me Jacob? How much money would I have to pay someone before you aquired the necessary level of intelligence to understand that a law is a law?
Sackboy.....either frame the argument honestly or don't debate. It is ILLEGAL immigration.
Multiculturalism is a stain on the history of this country.
Posted by: kender at May 02, 2006 02:35 PM (x/4tK)
16
R'Cat, I'm still working on the mind-to-type contraption...with built-in spell check... 
And Kender -- indeed: "Multiculturalism is a stain on the history of this country."
Yes. Yes it is.
And Kender -- indeed: "Multiculturalism is a stain on the history of this country."
Yes. Yes it is.
Posted by: Ogre at May 02, 2006 02:44 PM (/k+l4)
17
Jay "I'm afraid that Sack boy is twisting this debate just like the media, leaving off one very important word, "illegal", in order to craft the debate into something it is not. There is a process in which they can get here legally, and then there wouldn't be a problem. Sackboy ignores facts, because he is thinking in terms of some grandiose idealism where he thinks he is better than you, and that you are a racist bigot that hates all brown people."
The name's Saskboy ;-) as someone astutely noted I'm Canadian and Sask is short for Saskatchewan. The debate is over whether illegal immigrants should be considered felons solely on their means of coming to the States, so it's not "spinning" to take the opposing view. If you take disagreement as spinning, then I don't know how to talk with you. And I never called anyone a racist, that was another who suggested that.
To answer another question, Quebec has never wanted to succeed from Canada. There have been two referendum on the subject in the last 40 years [to my memory] and both times the seperatists lost, so the province never voted for seperation. If you wan to dredge up seperation as some kind of Canadian fault - don't try it. *cough* Civil War *cough*
Multiculturalism is a fact of living on earth. The only "stain" is people who kill or persecute others based on race. What exactly is wrong with multiculturalism in your views, Kender and Ogre?
The name's Saskboy ;-) as someone astutely noted I'm Canadian and Sask is short for Saskatchewan. The debate is over whether illegal immigrants should be considered felons solely on their means of coming to the States, so it's not "spinning" to take the opposing view. If you take disagreement as spinning, then I don't know how to talk with you. And I never called anyone a racist, that was another who suggested that.
To answer another question, Quebec has never wanted to succeed from Canada. There have been two referendum on the subject in the last 40 years [to my memory] and both times the seperatists lost, so the province never voted for seperation. If you wan to dredge up seperation as some kind of Canadian fault - don't try it. *cough* Civil War *cough*
Multiculturalism is a fact of living on earth. The only "stain" is people who kill or persecute others based on race. What exactly is wrong with multiculturalism in your views, Kender and Ogre?
Posted by: Saskboy at May 02, 2006 03:24 PM (c6g2h)
18
Multiculturalism is about shutting up freedom. Multiculturalism, in it's current incarnation, is about telling people what to think and how to feel. It's about crushing freedom of thoughts and ideas. It's about telling people that their way of living and thinking that has existed for decades is wrong. It's about forcing people to accept others, no matter what they do wrong.
Multiculturalism's goal is to destroy the uniquely American idea.
Multiculturalism's goal is to destroy the uniquely American idea.
Posted by: Ogre at May 02, 2006 04:29 PM (/k+l4)
19
Listen up ya lil canuk, "multiculturalism" as Ogre said in its' current form, demands that people must accept others no matter what they think of them or what they do singly or as a group, and the current trend regarding (and I know this is an extreme example but I am trying to make a point quickly so that you stop wasting our time) of NAMBLA stating that sex with little boys is just another "cultural choice" that should be tolerated is exactly the kind of crap one gets when they do NOT have limits, boundries and accepted cultural norms based in a common MORAL system.
Now....can you wrap your pointy little head around THAT fact???
As for the debate being about whether criminal aliens (i.e. "illegals") should be consider felons or not, you are wrong. The debate is, at its' heart, about whether we should give amnesty to millions of people that have already shown they have a hardwired disdain for OUR LAWS!!!!!
The people coming in droves from latin american countries have a tolerance of corruption that they are gladly bringing along with them, and this mindset is not one that we can afford to accept, and giving in to the demands that our laws be ignored and papers handed out because our government failed us in their duties simply tells them that America is exactly the same as where they came from and that demands (threats) can get just as much done as bribes.
Now....can you wrap your pointy little head around THAT fact???
As for the debate being about whether criminal aliens (i.e. "illegals") should be consider felons or not, you are wrong. The debate is, at its' heart, about whether we should give amnesty to millions of people that have already shown they have a hardwired disdain for OUR LAWS!!!!!
The people coming in droves from latin american countries have a tolerance of corruption that they are gladly bringing along with them, and this mindset is not one that we can afford to accept, and giving in to the demands that our laws be ignored and papers handed out because our government failed us in their duties simply tells them that America is exactly the same as where they came from and that demands (threats) can get just as much done as bribes.
Posted by: kender at May 02, 2006 04:41 PM (x/4tK)
20
Saskboy, just because the referendum LOST both times does not negate my point. Is my memory faulty in telling me that more and more the seperatists are gaining support for secession?
As for the Civil War, yup - it was a disgraceful and tragic time in our history. However, it addressed (among other things) a terrible injustice in the system as it existed at the time. That situation is far better now, and steadily improving. Nevertheless, the Civil War has nothing to do with the subject of ILLEGAL immigration (frankly, neither does Quebecios secession, sorry).
I am curious, Sask - if I happened to hustle on up to Canada, enter without due process, and then proceed to demand that you give me citizens' rights... Would you campaign on my behalf? Would you do so if I also refused to surrender my status and privleges as a US citizen? Would you STILL do so if I (and others like me) sent FOUR BILLION Canadian dollars (annually) "back home" and didn't reinvest it in Canada - which had supposedly empowered me to make a better life?
-- R'cat
CatHouseChat.com
As for the Civil War, yup - it was a disgraceful and tragic time in our history. However, it addressed (among other things) a terrible injustice in the system as it existed at the time. That situation is far better now, and steadily improving. Nevertheless, the Civil War has nothing to do with the subject of ILLEGAL immigration (frankly, neither does Quebecios secession, sorry).
I am curious, Sask - if I happened to hustle on up to Canada, enter without due process, and then proceed to demand that you give me citizens' rights... Would you campaign on my behalf? Would you do so if I also refused to surrender my status and privleges as a US citizen? Would you STILL do so if I (and others like me) sent FOUR BILLION Canadian dollars (annually) "back home" and didn't reinvest it in Canada - which had supposedly empowered me to make a better life?
-- R'cat
CatHouseChat.com
Posted by: Romeocat at May 02, 2006 05:01 PM (VoQwT)
21
Make it realisitic R'Cat -- go to Saskboy's house and move in. Sit down on the couch and make yourself comfortable. Then tell him that you like it there and you're going to stay -- and he's going to pay your rent, for your food, your education, and any medical care you need. Oh sure, you'll help out around the house a bit, but you're not leaving.
That is what the ILLEGAL, criminal invaders are doing in America today.
That is what the ILLEGAL, criminal invaders are doing in America today.
Posted by: Ogre at May 02, 2006 05:12 PM (/k+l4)
22
"Would you do so if I also refused to surrender my status and privleges as a US citizen? Would you STILL do so if I (and others like me) sent FOUR BILLION Canadian dollars (annually) "back home" and didn't reinvest it in Canada - which had supposedly empowered me to make a better life?"
Well, I cant speak for Saskboy, but I wouldn't complain and I am a Canadian. Canada allows dual citizenship, so feel free to come over and be both Canadian and American. And if you have family back home who needs money, go ahead and send it. By renting/buying a home, buying groceries and supplies, and living here in general you are supporting the canadian economy. Besides, Canada LIKES to help other countries and people better themselves. We arent selfish airheads, thanks.
Do you truly think people illegally immigrate to the USA just for the sake of doing something illegal? Have you ever thought to look into immigration policy? I'm pretty sure you will discover that the average illegal immigrant doesnt qualify to enter legally.
Well, I cant speak for Saskboy, but I wouldn't complain and I am a Canadian. Canada allows dual citizenship, so feel free to come over and be both Canadian and American. And if you have family back home who needs money, go ahead and send it. By renting/buying a home, buying groceries and supplies, and living here in general you are supporting the canadian economy. Besides, Canada LIKES to help other countries and people better themselves. We arent selfish airheads, thanks.
Do you truly think people illegally immigrate to the USA just for the sake of doing something illegal? Have you ever thought to look into immigration policy? I'm pretty sure you will discover that the average illegal immigrant doesnt qualify to enter legally.
Posted by: Blessed at May 02, 2006 05:28 PM (lIicN)
23
Blessed, okay, start sending me your money. I'll only use it to pay my medical bills, my rent, my education bills, police, and food, I promise. Since you're not "selfish," I'm sure you will start sending me your money right away.
Posted by: Ogre at May 02, 2006 05:32 PM (/k+l4)
24
Multiculturalism " It's about telling people that their way of living and thinking that has existed for decades is wrong. It's about forcing people to accept others, no matter what they do wrong."
I don't see it that way. I think it's telling people to accept other peoples' cultures, as long as the other culture doesn't contradict the prevailing culture in the land. No culture encourages child mollestation, so your example isn't a good one.
Kender, "lil CanuCk" and "pointy head" isn't a really great way to make a point and have me believe you're not just bluster. I'm sorry if you've encountered Canadians in the past that lead you to believe you have to type slowly so I can understand. "The people coming in droves from latin american countries have a tolerance of corruption that they are gladly bringing along with them," Is that why Tom DeLay was tolerated so long, because of latinos in Texas?
Romeocat, last word on the Quebec thing - no the movement is not gaining. Liberals hold the provincial government, and Conservatives won more seats federally than last election too in Quebec.
If you moved to Canada illegally, depending on your circumstances I might fight for your right to stay. Various reasons would include being punished for political reasons, when you are returned to the States [a country that might put you to death for crimes], or that you've built a business or Canadian family while here for many years, and my country would be punishing Canadian children by sending you away. Also Canada's immigration system is dreadfully slow. We can't get as many legal immigrants we want, the system can't keep up, and I suspect your system has the same problem where there are good people willing to move here, but no legal way for them to do it.
Thank you everyone for the interesting conversation, and letting me speak to the other side of the issue. Stop by my blog anytime, there are links to various Canadian bloggers that I know you'd have interesting discussions with.
I don't see it that way. I think it's telling people to accept other peoples' cultures, as long as the other culture doesn't contradict the prevailing culture in the land. No culture encourages child mollestation, so your example isn't a good one.
Kender, "lil CanuCk" and "pointy head" isn't a really great way to make a point and have me believe you're not just bluster. I'm sorry if you've encountered Canadians in the past that lead you to believe you have to type slowly so I can understand. "The people coming in droves from latin american countries have a tolerance of corruption that they are gladly bringing along with them," Is that why Tom DeLay was tolerated so long, because of latinos in Texas?
Romeocat, last word on the Quebec thing - no the movement is not gaining. Liberals hold the provincial government, and Conservatives won more seats federally than last election too in Quebec.
If you moved to Canada illegally, depending on your circumstances I might fight for your right to stay. Various reasons would include being punished for political reasons, when you are returned to the States [a country that might put you to death for crimes], or that you've built a business or Canadian family while here for many years, and my country would be punishing Canadian children by sending you away. Also Canada's immigration system is dreadfully slow. We can't get as many legal immigrants we want, the system can't keep up, and I suspect your system has the same problem where there are good people willing to move here, but no legal way for them to do it.
Thank you everyone for the interesting conversation, and letting me speak to the other side of the issue. Stop by my blog anytime, there are links to various Canadian bloggers that I know you'd have interesting discussions with.
Posted by: Saskboy at May 02, 2006 05:39 PM (c6g2h)
25
Are you moving to Canada, Ogre? Are you gonna start working here for a Canadian business and helping that business make money like an illegal immigrant? and how, btw, do u pay the rent and bills of an illegal immigrant? They recieve no government funding of any sort.
Posted by: Blessed at May 02, 2006 05:49 PM (lIicN)
26
btw, Ogre, since i see you avoided my question, i guess i will leave you in ignorant bliss
Posted by: Blessed at May 02, 2006 05:50 PM (lIicN)
27
Saskboy, you don't see things in America, I assume, so I'll address this statement of yours: "I think it's telling people to accept other peoples' cultures, as long as the other culture doesn't contradict the prevailing culture in the land."
That's is absolutely incorrect as it manifests in America today. In America's schools, it is FORCING people to accept EVERY culture but their own, ESPECIALLY if it contradicts the prevaliing culture. That IS it's purpose in the education system of America, seriously.
That's is absolutely incorrect as it manifests in America today. In America's schools, it is FORCING people to accept EVERY culture but their own, ESPECIALLY if it contradicts the prevaliing culture. That IS it's purpose in the education system of America, seriously.
Posted by: Ogre at May 02, 2006 05:51 PM (/k+l4)
28
It's called Section 8 Housing, Blessed, and we DO give it to illegals ALL the time.
Posted by: Ogre at May 02, 2006 05:52 PM (/k+l4)
29
"Saskboy, you don't see things in America, I assume"
You see the schools I take it? I've travelled from Washington DC, to Seattle by bus just 3 years ago, and get American news on TV every day, along with American entertainment TV. Granted I haven't seen into an American school, so I'll take your word if you have recently.
You see the schools I take it? I've travelled from Washington DC, to Seattle by bus just 3 years ago, and get American news on TV every day, along with American entertainment TV. Granted I haven't seen into an American school, so I'll take your word if you have recently.
Posted by: Saskboy at May 02, 2006 06:00 PM (c6g2h)
30
I work in them. 
Posted by: Ogre at May 02, 2006 06:00 PM (/k+l4)
31
Blessed, "I'm pretty sure you will discover that the average illegal immigrant doesnt qualify to enter legally." there is a reason for that. We have plenty of our own stupid, lazy, shiftless non-skilled people and certainly don't need to import more of them. We graduate thousands of them every year from high schools all across the country.
The U.S. lets in over a million LEGAL immigrants EVERY YEAR, the MOST liberal immigration policy ON THE PLANET!!!!
The 14th amendment has been wrongly interpreted and when someone is born here to a criminal alien that person is given all the welfare benefits of natural born citizens.
That is how criminal aliens steal from us.
And saskboy? As I am bored today, I will take you up on your offer to come play on your blog.....and I thank you for that and promise you that you will be pulling your hair out in short order, you pointy headed litle canuk....
BTW, I once lived in canada, and had to fight to get a work permit even though I was given a job before I even got in my car to go there....and spent most of a summer living on a guest visa and the proceeds from betting on horses....good thing I had a good run....
The U.S. lets in over a million LEGAL immigrants EVERY YEAR, the MOST liberal immigration policy ON THE PLANET!!!!
The 14th amendment has been wrongly interpreted and when someone is born here to a criminal alien that person is given all the welfare benefits of natural born citizens.
That is how criminal aliens steal from us.
And saskboy? As I am bored today, I will take you up on your offer to come play on your blog.....and I thank you for that and promise you that you will be pulling your hair out in short order, you pointy headed litle canuk....
BTW, I once lived in canada, and had to fight to get a work permit even though I was given a job before I even got in my car to go there....and spent most of a summer living on a guest visa and the proceeds from betting on horses....good thing I had a good run....
Posted by: kender at May 02, 2006 06:01 PM (x/4tK)
32
Blessed said: "Besides, Canada LIKES to help other countries and people better themselves. We arent selfish airheads, thanks."
Neither is the US. As a matter of fact, the US is the most generous, openhanded country in the WORLD. Nuclear accidents, earthquakes, tsunamis, genocidal maniacs, famine...
You name it, we're there. And we're usually there FIRST, and we don't ask if you're "just like us" before we give a helping hand.
AND - we don't let our government give FOR us. Time after time after time after time, private citizens pull out their wallets, volunteer their time, offer their services **OUT OF THEIR OWN SENSE OF DECENCY AND GOODWILL**
*sigh* My Momma told me to be courteous, Blessed, but you're making it awfully hard...
Saskboy - America doesn't have the death penalty for "lesser crimes" like illegal immigration. We reserve that for things like capital murder and so on. Please don't set up that kind of strawman.
Nevertheless, the fact remains that laws are being broken. Now, admittedly, not all laws are just - that's true. However, it is up to the **citizens of that country** to change those laws.
Until the laws are changed, they must be enforced. Period. Whether or not our legal system chooses to enforce those laws isn't at issue.
By definition, if I break a law, I am a criminal. And, yeah, I feel the same way about the speeding tickets I've gotten - I made my choice, got caught, and paid the price.
Suddenly a thought strikes me: Sask, do you understand the concepts behind the words "responsibility, duty, and honor"?
Responsible people, who understand their duty to other people and their own country, behave honorably and obey the laws they live under. They scorn dishonorable and irresponsible people who flaut the law and have no concern for respect and consideration for others.
If these concepts are something you cannot understand and apply to the ILLEGAL immigration issue... well, we are so far apart mentally that we cannot have an honest, open, and PRODUCTIVE conversation.
- R'cat
CatHouseChat.com
Neither is the US. As a matter of fact, the US is the most generous, openhanded country in the WORLD. Nuclear accidents, earthquakes, tsunamis, genocidal maniacs, famine...
You name it, we're there. And we're usually there FIRST, and we don't ask if you're "just like us" before we give a helping hand.
AND - we don't let our government give FOR us. Time after time after time after time, private citizens pull out their wallets, volunteer their time, offer their services **OUT OF THEIR OWN SENSE OF DECENCY AND GOODWILL**
*sigh* My Momma told me to be courteous, Blessed, but you're making it awfully hard...
Saskboy - America doesn't have the death penalty for "lesser crimes" like illegal immigration. We reserve that for things like capital murder and so on. Please don't set up that kind of strawman.
Nevertheless, the fact remains that laws are being broken. Now, admittedly, not all laws are just - that's true. However, it is up to the **citizens of that country** to change those laws.
Until the laws are changed, they must be enforced. Period. Whether or not our legal system chooses to enforce those laws isn't at issue.
By definition, if I break a law, I am a criminal. And, yeah, I feel the same way about the speeding tickets I've gotten - I made my choice, got caught, and paid the price.
Suddenly a thought strikes me: Sask, do you understand the concepts behind the words "responsibility, duty, and honor"?
Responsible people, who understand their duty to other people and their own country, behave honorably and obey the laws they live under. They scorn dishonorable and irresponsible people who flaut the law and have no concern for respect and consideration for others.
If these concepts are something you cannot understand and apply to the ILLEGAL immigration issue... well, we are so far apart mentally that we cannot have an honest, open, and PRODUCTIVE conversation.
- R'cat
CatHouseChat.com
Posted by: Romeocat at May 02, 2006 06:24 PM (VoQwT)
33
R'cat "Sask, do you understand the concepts behind the words "responsibility, duty, and honor"? Responsible people, who understand their duty to other people and their own country, behave honorably and obey the laws they live under. They scorn dishonorable and irresponsible people who flaut the law and have no concern for respect and consideration for others."
I do understand thos concepts, yes. And I just feel that our duty to others doesn't end at the 49th parallel, or any other country border, as indicated by your earlier comment to Blessed about Americans helping out around the world as they obivously do. Your line in the sand as to who you respect and honour, is just a bit closer to home than I'd make it for me.
I do understand thos concepts, yes. And I just feel that our duty to others doesn't end at the 49th parallel, or any other country border, as indicated by your earlier comment to Blessed about Americans helping out around the world as they obivously do. Your line in the sand as to who you respect and honour, is just a bit closer to home than I'd make it for me.
Posted by: Saskboy at May 02, 2006 06:35 PM (c6g2h)
34
Sask, duty, honor and responsibility start at home, and if we can't keep our own house clean, how can we help others?
It is a simple recognition that there is only so much to go around, and if we lose all trying to help others than we all lose......
It is a simple recognition that there is only so much to go around, and if we lose all trying to help others than we all lose......
Posted by: kender at May 02, 2006 06:48 PM (x/4tK)
35
Actually, Sask, I daresay that my "line in the sand" is drawn far further than you think, apparently. I don't believe I happened to mention *any* nationalities when I wrote of duty, responsibility, and honor.
Anyone in the world who honestly acts on those principles, although I may not agree with their particular interpretation of how to live those virtues, are my kind of people.
-- R'cat
CatHouseChat.com
Anyone in the world who honestly acts on those principles, although I may not agree with their particular interpretation of how to live those virtues, are my kind of people.
-- R'cat
CatHouseChat.com
Posted by: Romeocat at May 02, 2006 08:25 PM (VoQwT)
36
I think the difference in terms between R'Cat and Saskboy is "our." When R'Cat uses the word, she means individuals working together. I suspect Saskboy (correct me if I'm wrong) sees "our" as more of a collective of the country.
Posted by: Ogre at May 02, 2006 09:19 PM (blszc)
37
"If those who break the law decide the immigration laws aren't any good, then why can't rapists decide that law isn't any good, too?"
John Locke, whose writing were the philisophical inspiration for your revolution said that when a law is unjust, we as citizens have a duty to oppose it; I don't buy the arguement that being illegal means it can't be questioned or unenforced. Further, it is a citizens duty to understand the difference between laws against rape and immigration regulations.
Quebec seperatism isn't gaining groud.
Why is it assumed all illegal immigrants are lazy, stupid and shiftless?
These people move to your country because they make more in America in a day than they make at home in a week. And you do take the life for granted, spend a week in the third world. Your country has worked hard for the economy you have, but it isn't just hard work, there is a little luck, geography and history involved.
And since the arguement "there is only so much to go around" essentially says that economics is a zero sum game, that some must loose for others to gain, it flies directly in the face of the philosophy behind your economic policy; in fact, it's a common arguement for communism.
If you're looking at solving the problems of poverty and waste, perhaps you should look at how much the government wastes on Halliburton, in Iraq (And I am not saying the war was a waste, neccessarily, but look at the waste in prosecuting that war...), in the Defense Department, in pork-barrelling, etc etc etc. Going after Illegal Immigrants is scapegoating 10-12 million people who account for .01% of the problem.
John Locke, whose writing were the philisophical inspiration for your revolution said that when a law is unjust, we as citizens have a duty to oppose it; I don't buy the arguement that being illegal means it can't be questioned or unenforced. Further, it is a citizens duty to understand the difference between laws against rape and immigration regulations.
Quebec seperatism isn't gaining groud.
Why is it assumed all illegal immigrants are lazy, stupid and shiftless?
These people move to your country because they make more in America in a day than they make at home in a week. And you do take the life for granted, spend a week in the third world. Your country has worked hard for the economy you have, but it isn't just hard work, there is a little luck, geography and history involved.
And since the arguement "there is only so much to go around" essentially says that economics is a zero sum game, that some must loose for others to gain, it flies directly in the face of the philosophy behind your economic policy; in fact, it's a common arguement for communism.
If you're looking at solving the problems of poverty and waste, perhaps you should look at how much the government wastes on Halliburton, in Iraq (And I am not saying the war was a waste, neccessarily, but look at the waste in prosecuting that war...), in the Defense Department, in pork-barrelling, etc etc etc. Going after Illegal Immigrants is scapegoating 10-12 million people who account for .01% of the problem.
Posted by: Jacob Hunter at May 02, 2006 11:46 PM (Z8crZ)
38
If we have 11-12 million "illegal immigrants" (follow me here this is a very convoluted argument that gets real damned twisty, Jacob) and the issue at hand is "illegal immigration" then just how the hell is making illegal immigrants the focus of illegal immigration SCAPEGOATING THEM??????
For criminys sake Jacob, I do believe that what you wrote was the single stupidest thing I have ever read and you owe me money for lowering my IQ by subjecting me to it......and keep in mind I have read things at the DU and you STILL BEAT THEM HANDS DOWN!!!!!
In fact, if there were a mental darwin award for the stupidest thing written you would have it locked up for the next five years....
What a dumbass!!!!
For criminys sake Jacob, I do believe that what you wrote was the single stupidest thing I have ever read and you owe me money for lowering my IQ by subjecting me to it......and keep in mind I have read things at the DU and you STILL BEAT THEM HANDS DOWN!!!!!
In fact, if there were a mental darwin award for the stupidest thing written you would have it locked up for the next five years....
What a dumbass!!!!
Posted by: kender at May 03, 2006 01:40 AM (x/4tK)
39
People in America are worried about jobs, they blame illegal immigrants for taking their jobs, you are scapegoating a group of people because it's far easier than actually changing your countries policies, reducating yourselves, etc.
The "costs" of illegal immigrants represent an overall 1/10th of a precent of the overall costs of wasteful programs your government undertakes, its corruption, etc.
You blame them because it's easier, just like every other country thoughout history that has had this idiotic debate. Illegal Immigration is about "To much of you, not enough of me"; and that's from PG O'Rourke. It's thinly veiled racism. Your cute circular reasoning (It's illegal because it's illegal!) notwithstanding.
I will say this very clearly: It is scapegoating because the entire Illegal Immigration debate is scapegoating; "Things suck, it must those damn illegals!"
The name calling is cute, it really makes your arguements more convincing. And really, do I have to be the one to tell you that in so far as IQ is concerned, one can not subtract from 0.
The "costs" of illegal immigrants represent an overall 1/10th of a precent of the overall costs of wasteful programs your government undertakes, its corruption, etc.
You blame them because it's easier, just like every other country thoughout history that has had this idiotic debate. Illegal Immigration is about "To much of you, not enough of me"; and that's from PG O'Rourke. It's thinly veiled racism. Your cute circular reasoning (It's illegal because it's illegal!) notwithstanding.
I will say this very clearly: It is scapegoating because the entire Illegal Immigration debate is scapegoating; "Things suck, it must those damn illegals!"
The name calling is cute, it really makes your arguements more convincing. And really, do I have to be the one to tell you that in so far as IQ is concerned, one can not subtract from 0.
Posted by: Jacob Hunter at May 03, 2006 02:07 AM (Z8crZ)
40
There's a HUGE difference between citizens opposing and law and changing that law and simply disobeying it and refusing to prosecute it. We are a nation of laws. If the law is wrong, change it. Until it changes, it's to be obeyed. It's pretty simple.
It is not assumed that all illegals are lazy -- but they ARE getting hundreds of billions of dollars of US government money, period. Maybe that's peanuts to you, but that's a huge pile of money to me.
And you know, I might be able to make more in a day than I do in a week now if I come to your house and steal everything you have to sell it -- does that make it ok?
And it's not about jobs. Nice straw man, but that's not anywhere near the whole story.
It is not assumed that all illegals are lazy -- but they ARE getting hundreds of billions of dollars of US government money, period. Maybe that's peanuts to you, but that's a huge pile of money to me.
And you know, I might be able to make more in a day than I do in a week now if I come to your house and steal everything you have to sell it -- does that make it ok?
And it's not about jobs. Nice straw man, but that's not anywhere near the whole story.
Posted by: Ogre at May 03, 2006 10:15 AM (blszc)
41
I stand by what I said Jacob. You wrote the stupidest. Comment. Ever.
Posted by: kender at May 03, 2006 02:42 PM (x/4tK)
42
To correctly modify stupid to indicate degree, one would use the word most; most stupid. Or, conjugate the word dumb with est, as in dumbest.
Irony, is when say, a person such as Kender uses a word that doesn't exist in the English lanuguage to impune someones intelligence.
Hyprocrisy would be not having a working understanding of the English lanuage, yet insisting all immigrants do.
You're right, it's not just about jobs, it's about making sure enough people in the middle of the country are so afraid of Terrorism, unemployment, Illegal Immigrants, "The Gays", "The Jews", "The Liberal Media-Elites" and whatever else the Republican party can muster to keep y'all in fear.
It's amazing how these issues always get play in even numbered years...
So, when American contravened international laws (Against Torture, for example) your government and military leaders should be on trial right?
Orge: No, it does not make it okay to steal. How about this, what If I came to your house, killed the vast majority of it's residents, then declared the house to be mine; then I only let certain people in?
How is that not worse than say, just coming to your house and sleeping in the backyard?
Irony, is when say, a person such as Kender uses a word that doesn't exist in the English lanuguage to impune someones intelligence.
Hyprocrisy would be not having a working understanding of the English lanuage, yet insisting all immigrants do.
You're right, it's not just about jobs, it's about making sure enough people in the middle of the country are so afraid of Terrorism, unemployment, Illegal Immigrants, "The Gays", "The Jews", "The Liberal Media-Elites" and whatever else the Republican party can muster to keep y'all in fear.
It's amazing how these issues always get play in even numbered years...
So, when American contravened international laws (Against Torture, for example) your government and military leaders should be on trial right?
Orge: No, it does not make it okay to steal. How about this, what If I came to your house, killed the vast majority of it's residents, then declared the house to be mine; then I only let certain people in?
How is that not worse than say, just coming to your house and sleeping in the backyard?
Posted by: Jacob Hunter at May 03, 2006 05:13 PM (Z8crZ)
43
To correctly modify stupid to indicate degree, one would use the word most; most stupid. Or, conjugate the word dumb with est, as in dumbest.
Irony, is when say, a person such as Kender uses a word that doesn't exist in the English lanuguage to impune someones intelligence.
Hyprocrisy would be not having a working understanding of the English lanuage, yet insisting all immigrants do.
You're right, it's not just about jobs, it's about making sure enough people in the middle of the country are so afraid of Terrorism, unemployment, Illegal Immigrants, "The Gays", "The Jews", "The Liberal Media-Elites" and whatever else the Republican party can muster to keep y'all in fear.
It's amazing how these issues always get play in even numbered years...
So, when American contravened international laws (Against Torture, for example) your government and military leaders should be on trial right? "We're a nation of laws". Your own president has contravened American law 750 times since taking office.
Orge: No, it does not make it okay to steal. How about this, what If I came to your house, killed the vast majority of it's residents, then declared the house to be mine; then I only let certain people in?
If you're going to hang on the cross over the sanctity of international border, consider your own history.
Irony, is when say, a person such as Kender uses a word that doesn't exist in the English lanuguage to impune someones intelligence.
Hyprocrisy would be not having a working understanding of the English lanuage, yet insisting all immigrants do.
You're right, it's not just about jobs, it's about making sure enough people in the middle of the country are so afraid of Terrorism, unemployment, Illegal Immigrants, "The Gays", "The Jews", "The Liberal Media-Elites" and whatever else the Republican party can muster to keep y'all in fear.
It's amazing how these issues always get play in even numbered years...
So, when American contravened international laws (Against Torture, for example) your government and military leaders should be on trial right? "We're a nation of laws". Your own president has contravened American law 750 times since taking office.
Orge: No, it does not make it okay to steal. How about this, what If I came to your house, killed the vast majority of it's residents, then declared the house to be mine; then I only let certain people in?
If you're going to hang on the cross over the sanctity of international border, consider your own history.
Posted by: Jacob Hunter at May 03, 2006 05:15 PM (Z8crZ)
44
"working understanding?" Hello, Straw Man.
Republican Party? Fear? You are OBVIOUSLY not up with American politics. The Republican Party supports illegal immigration! They're afraid of the Jews and trying to make others afraid of them? What planet are you on?
Ok, so you admit it's not okay for me to steal. Why, then, is it okay for illegal immigrants to break the law and come to this country and steal from me?
Republican Party? Fear? You are OBVIOUSLY not up with American politics. The Republican Party supports illegal immigration! They're afraid of the Jews and trying to make others afraid of them? What planet are you on?
Ok, so you admit it's not okay for me to steal. Why, then, is it okay for illegal immigrants to break the law and come to this country and steal from me?
Posted by: Ogre at May 03, 2006 05:16 PM (/k+l4)
45
The Republican president has favored an earned citizenship (odd, he's not up for election this year), but the Republican Congress (who is up for election, weird!) passed a draconian law, to appeal to their base... Hmmm...
I am "up" on American politics, it bombards me on Television, and I READ.
See Chris Rock, Never Scared, he will explain the Jew comment. Hell, listen to your leaders "Liberal Media Elite" "Media controlled by the Jews"...
They have figured out the perfect way to get poor people to vote against their economic interests, it would be brilliant if it weren't so sad. They make you afraid, get your whipped up about the economic problems they cause, but they blame them on whomever is convinient.
They come to your country, they don't steal. They use a few services, which costs a little money. If you want to talk about theft, lets find an Indian to bring into this conversation.
I am "up" on American politics, it bombards me on Television, and I READ.
See Chris Rock, Never Scared, he will explain the Jew comment. Hell, listen to your leaders "Liberal Media Elite" "Media controlled by the Jews"...
They have figured out the perfect way to get poor people to vote against their economic interests, it would be brilliant if it weren't so sad. They make you afraid, get your whipped up about the economic problems they cause, but they blame them on whomever is convinient.
They come to your country, they don't steal. They use a few services, which costs a little money. If you want to talk about theft, lets find an Indian to bring into this conversation.
Posted by: Jacob Hunter at May 03, 2006 05:31 PM (Z8crZ)
46
No, the Republican Congress did NOT pass a draconian law. If they had, the President would either sign it or veto it. In fact, the HOUSE did and the Senate did not. So, if you consider 1 out of 3 "support," well, you just don't understand American politics.
Oh, Chris Rock is now your official source for the directon and means of the Republican Party? Wow. No, I'm sorry, you really do not understand politics in this country, no matter what you're reading and seeing.
Do you actually think poor people vote Republican? But that liberal media has been telling me that the Republicans are the party of the rich and the corporations.
Indeed, many in politics do attempt to use fear. I've only seen Democrats actually succeed at it.
And once again, if hundreds of billions of dollars is "a little money" to you, that's fine -- it's an enormous amount to me.
Oh, Chris Rock is now your official source for the directon and means of the Republican Party? Wow. No, I'm sorry, you really do not understand politics in this country, no matter what you're reading and seeing.
Do you actually think poor people vote Republican? But that liberal media has been telling me that the Republicans are the party of the rich and the corporations.
Indeed, many in politics do attempt to use fear. I've only seen Democrats actually succeed at it.
And once again, if hundreds of billions of dollars is "a little money" to you, that's fine -- it's an enormous amount to me.
Posted by: Ogre at May 03, 2006 05:39 PM (/k+l4)
47
The House passed it, the Senate has stalled. My use of the colloquial word for the HoR does not indicate a lack of knowledge.
The Red States are poor, they vote Republican. Gotta stop them Homos and Illegals from destroying 'Merica!
I love arguing with Americans, your education system has left you unable to form a cogent arguement, "You're stupid, I'm right!" might as well replace E Pluribus Unum on your coins.
I asked an Indian, they said you guys stole their land, you broke the law. They want it back now, they said it cost them hundreds of trillions of dollars. Oh, and he called you worse things than "Illegal Aliens".
Of course, the great part of all this is you people are so far to the nutso right that even your own party can only stand to placate you. It's so cute, look at the little Rednecks, aww... He's hating at a 5th grade level!
So, you see, you can call me stupid, you can say I know nothing of your politics, but that doesn't matter; Illegal Immigrants will keep coming to your country, your government wont be able to stop it, and you will just have to sit there and live with it. People such as yourself will just sit at home getting mad, while the rest of the world simply moves on without you.
Have fun being a throwback, you might want to learn to say "Do you want fries with that" in Spanish.
The Red States are poor, they vote Republican. Gotta stop them Homos and Illegals from destroying 'Merica!
I love arguing with Americans, your education system has left you unable to form a cogent arguement, "You're stupid, I'm right!" might as well replace E Pluribus Unum on your coins.
I asked an Indian, they said you guys stole their land, you broke the law. They want it back now, they said it cost them hundreds of trillions of dollars. Oh, and he called you worse things than "Illegal Aliens".
Of course, the great part of all this is you people are so far to the nutso right that even your own party can only stand to placate you. It's so cute, look at the little Rednecks, aww... He's hating at a 5th grade level!
So, you see, you can call me stupid, you can say I know nothing of your politics, but that doesn't matter; Illegal Immigrants will keep coming to your country, your government wont be able to stop it, and you will just have to sit there and live with it. People such as yourself will just sit at home getting mad, while the rest of the world simply moves on without you.
Have fun being a throwback, you might want to learn to say "Do you want fries with that" in Spanish.
Posted by: Jacob Hunter at May 03, 2006 05:53 PM (Z8crZ)
48
Ok, so you believe 1 out of 3 is a majority. You think that Chris Rock is the de facto leader and director of the Republican Party and that he hates gays. You think hundreds of billions of dollars is a little money. You think that calling people names is okay if you do it, but infantile if anyone else does it. You compare the society of the 1600s with the 21st century and think they are equal. You are bigoted against rednecks.
No, I don't need to call you stupid. I think you're doing fine all by yourself.
No, I don't need to call you stupid. I think you're doing fine all by yourself.
Posted by: Ogre at May 03, 2006 06:57 PM (/k+l4)
49
Chris Rock was making fun of the Republican party. You call me stupid because of your own ignorance, I love it!
I said Republican Congress passed, I meant Republican HoR passed; hence the comment about using the colloquial word for the HoR, Congress, incorrectly. How you include the President with Congress astounds me.
They don't cost hundreds of Billions of dollars, that's what's called propoganda.
Name calling is infantile, but hell, if that's all you people understand, when in Rome...
Oohhh, Okay, so in thr 1600s it's okay to steal a whole country and committ genocide, but in 2006 it's not okay to move across a border to get a job?
I said Republican Congress passed, I meant Republican HoR passed; hence the comment about using the colloquial word for the HoR, Congress, incorrectly. How you include the President with Congress astounds me.
They don't cost hundreds of Billions of dollars, that's what's called propoganda.
Name calling is infantile, but hell, if that's all you people understand, when in Rome...
Oohhh, Okay, so in thr 1600s it's okay to steal a whole country and committ genocide, but in 2006 it's not okay to move across a border to get a job?
Posted by: Jacob Hunter at May 03, 2006 07:16 PM (Z8crZ)
50
You just keep on digging -- I don't even need to add to it. Perhaps you would find favor with the Democrat Party in America -- they believe, like you do, that if you repeat something that's not true enough times, it becomes true.
Posted by: Ogre at May 03, 2006 07:19 PM (/k+l4)
51
Oh, and I must say, you are an absolute EXPERT at setting up straw men.
Posted by: Ogre at May 03, 2006 07:19 PM (/k+l4)
Posted by: Jacob Hunter at May 03, 2006 07:27 PM (Z8crZ)
53
I'm sure in your world, yes, straw men are facts.
Posted by: Ogre at May 03, 2006 07:29 PM (/k+l4)
54
Enjoy your "struggle"
Posted by: Jacob Hunter at May 03, 2006 08:09 PM (Z8crZ)
55
Thank you. Indeed, it will continue to be a struggle for freedom -- it always has been.
Posted by: Ogre at May 03, 2006 09:24 PM (blszc)
56
"I said this but I meant that"
"Making a statement that you are using illegals as scapegoats regarding the issue of illegal immigration is not stupid when Kender uses the word "stupider" instead of the more grammatically correct phrase "most stupid"."
Jacob, I take it all back. You aren't stupid, you are a drooling moron of the lowest order.
You cannot possibly be such an idiot and continue to breathe while walking, can you?
"Making a statement that you are using illegals as scapegoats regarding the issue of illegal immigration is not stupid when Kender uses the word "stupider" instead of the more grammatically correct phrase "most stupid"."
Jacob, I take it all back. You aren't stupid, you are a drooling moron of the lowest order.
You cannot possibly be such an idiot and continue to breathe while walking, can you?
Posted by: kender at May 04, 2006 12:50 AM (x/4tK)
57
No one said he didn't drool and walk at the same time.
Posted by: Ogre at May 04, 2006 10:22 AM (blszc)
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