1 Ogre, you write: "the damn convicted sick, twisted criminal is completely unconscious and can't feel a thing," which you cite as evidence that the punishment isn't cruel. But that's exactly what is at issue -- the jury is out on whether they feel it or not. Just wanted to clarify.

2 Personally, I think shooting is too humane for some of them.

3 I understand, Lance, that's what the "anyone with 1/10 of a brain" part comes in. That's one jury that's out that I do NOT want sitting in judgement of, well, anything.

And yes, VW, I didn't get into the cruel part where they inflicted pain...I lean more towards an eye for an eye there...

4 Ogre, there are two questions: first, whether the subject of a lethal injection execution feels pain; second, whether this constitutes cruel and unusual punishment.

The first question is probably best answered by people in the health sciences. I mean, it's not like we can ask anyone who has been through the experience, so expert opinion is all you have to go on.

The second is a matter of personal opinion for most people, but for the convicted capital criminal, it's a matter of jurisprudence. In a common law system, what you have to live with in terms of a definition for cruel and unusual is what's been handed down by courts past.

So suppose the answer to #1 is "yes, the subject does feel pain." Consideration of #2 is really a matter of placing that pain within the context of US cruel and unusual jurisprudence, and some courts are saying that painful lethal injection would be unconstitutional. You may disagree with that (I take it to be the case that you think anyone with 10% of a brain would), but if the courts continue to go this way, you're going to need a constitutional amendment to enforce your views.

5 But all evidence, including a recent execution in North Carolina, strongly suggests, with no opposing scientific evidence, that the subject of a lethal injection feels no pain. They hooked the convict up to a brain monitor where brain activity can be measured -- they measured no pain.

Those that are claiming that lethal injection is painful only provide the evidence that you suggest here: "we can't ask anyone, so we assume it IS painful."

So, if we suppose the answer to #1 is "No," then there's no question #2. There's zero actual evidence to oppose the "no" answer -- so I'll I'm stating here is that those who oppose the death penalty are simply honest -- they oppose the death penalty -- NOT that it might be painful and therefore "cruel."

6 I don't think I offered lack of proof as evidence. In fact, I proposed leaving it to scientists to figure out whether it hurts or not.

I agree that if the answer to #1 is "no" then there is no worry about #2. I had assumed that, if courts were finding one way, that there would be some evidence out there pointing that way. I think that's a pretty good assumption, but I'd be happier with scientific work.

The death penalty isn't a big issue for me, but this conversation led me to look around some. Here's what I'm seeing over and over again: the third chemical is excruciatingly painful; of the first two, one knocks you out and the other paralyzes you. (You probably knew all of this already.) The thing is that most states don't have doctors oversee the process, so there's a not insignificant chance that the prisoner will be paralyzed but fully aware. The most common argument I'm seeing isn't that the cocktail properly administered causes pain, but that it's administered in such a way as to be painful when it could be done safely. Apparently even vets putting animals to sleep monitor the animal through the process.

(Analogy: say the state ordered castration for sex offenders and suppose that it wouldn't qualify as cruel and unusual punishment if performed by a qualified medical professional. That doesn't mean it isn't cruel and unusual when performed by the groundskeeper.)

It seems that the answer to #1, then, is "there's a significant risk that it's painful."

Here's what I don't understand: why doesn't NC get a doctor at the execution instead of running the risk of setting unfavorable precedent for it and the rest of the US? It's a bit late now.

7 I understand your point about doctors being around to administer the injection. However, the lack of the doctor being there doesn't, to me, provide any evidence that it is actually painful. If the convict is knocked out, barring any other evidence (of which I've not seen or heard any), I tend to agree that the person is unconscious and not feeling pain. I don't see any reason to suggest that they are paralyzed and aware.

8 And no, I have no idea why North Carolina doesn't have a doctor present, other than perhaps the cost? I don't know. Wouldn't there already be some doctors there? Maybe there's issues like CA has where the doctors refuse to participate?