NC State Opposes Freedom
This isn't really North Carolina government (as the category implies), but it's government at the North Carolina State University. The state Senate was voting to decide if "Grades should be held against students for having a different view."
Since this is an institute of[F]aculty and instructors shall not infringe upon the academic freedom and quality of education of their students by persistently introducing controversial matter into the classroom or coursework that has no relation to their subject of study and that serves no legitimate pedagogical purpose.
The NSCU Senate said No, faculty and instructions SHALL introduce coursework that is not related to the subject and SHALL introduce coursework that serves no legitimate purpose. Tell me the value of a college education again?
Comments
1
The problem with your argument, other than being a strawman with no basis is reality, is what would happen if it WERE passed. You open the door for every student to sue/fight every teacher for things that have no relation to their pedagogical purpose.
Science professors would be sued to stop teaching that "evolution" stuff.
Health professionals would be sued to stop teaching that AIDS is NOT caused by gays.
History professors would be sued to stop teaching that the holocuast happened.
For a group that says there are too many frivolous lawsuits, you guys sure do want to make a lot of laws that would lead to frivolous lawsuits.
Science professors would be sued to stop teaching that "evolution" stuff.
Health professionals would be sued to stop teaching that AIDS is NOT caused by gays.
History professors would be sued to stop teaching that the holocuast happened.
For a group that says there are too many frivolous lawsuits, you guys sure do want to make a lot of laws that would lead to frivolous lawsuits.
Posted by: Robert P at February 21, 2006 01:08 PM (V/N23)
2
Just because you would attempt to sue a school for teaching the holocaust never happened and attempt to make that mean that the holocaust isn't related to a course on European history doesn't mean that anyone else on the planet is crazy enough to try such lunacy. There's the straw man you're looking for.
Oh, and by the way? Someone could file exactly that lawsuit NOW, without needing approval from the student senate.
Oh, and by the way? Someone could file exactly that lawsuit NOW, without needing approval from the student senate.
Posted by: Ogre at February 21, 2006 01:47 PM (/k+l4)
3
With this .... wait, the student senate? You're kidding right, your posting on student senate decisions? If anything, this shows that the state's ag school believes more in freedom of expression than the Republican Party.
Posted by: Robert P at February 21, 2006 01:55 PM (V/N23)
4
Yes, they do -- as long as you describe "freedom of expression" as the state taxpayers being forced at gunpoint to pay for people to introduce any position they want (such as ultra-liberal, socialist, communist, anti-American, treasonous, etc.) in a class at a class in a state school that is supposed to be teaching Algebra.
Posted by: Ogre at February 21, 2006 02:09 PM (/k+l4)
5
The idea that professors at State are introducing ultra-liberal, socialist, communist, anti-American , treasonous ideas in class is B.S..
Prove it. And, don't link some far-right group that simply repeats lies over and over, actually prove it. Now. It should be easy, since you are SO CERTAIN that it is happening at state. Let's see your proof, right now. I'll give you five minutes or consider yourself called for B.S.
Prove it. And, don't link some far-right group that simply repeats lies over and over, actually prove it. Now. It should be easy, since you are SO CERTAIN that it is happening at state. Let's see your proof, right now. I'll give you five minutes or consider yourself called for B.S.
Posted by: Robert P at February 21, 2006 02:11 PM (V/N23)
6
Ok, let's try that tactic based on your comments:
The idea that every student to sue/fight every teacher for things that have no relation to their pedagogical purpose is b.s.
Prove it. And don't link some far-left group that simply repeats lies over and over, actually prove it. Now it should be easy, since you are SO CERTAIN that they will. Let's see your proof, right now. I'll give you 5 minutes or consider yourself called for B.S.
The idea that every student to sue/fight every teacher for things that have no relation to their pedagogical purpose is b.s.
Prove it. And don't link some far-left group that simply repeats lies over and over, actually prove it. Now it should be easy, since you are SO CERTAIN that they will. Let's see your proof, right now. I'll give you 5 minutes or consider yourself called for B.S.
Posted by: Ogre at February 21, 2006 02:16 PM (/k+l4)
7
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1560734/posts
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2006-01-12-christian-school_x.htm
http://atheism.about.com/b/a/202438.htm
Okay, there are links to Republican spies in the classroom; what do you think the purpose of that is?
Then, a link about a religious group suing over ID not being accepted by colleges as a science course.
Then, a teacher, actually, suing that she shouldn't have to teach the holocaust without teaching the opposing view that it never happened.
That took 30 seconds, I found no hard proof from you that any State college professor is teaching, what was it? Socialist, communist, anti-American classes?
You, are, full, of, B.S.
I never expected you to answer, Neocons don't deal in truth. The entire faction would rather be loud than right.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2006-01-12-christian-school_x.htm
http://atheism.about.com/b/a/202438.htm
Okay, there are links to Republican spies in the classroom; what do you think the purpose of that is?
Then, a link about a religious group suing over ID not being accepted by colleges as a science course.
Then, a teacher, actually, suing that she shouldn't have to teach the holocaust without teaching the opposing view that it never happened.
That took 30 seconds, I found no hard proof from you that any State college professor is teaching, what was it? Socialist, communist, anti-American classes?
You, are, full, of, B.S.
I never expected you to answer, Neocons don't deal in truth. The entire faction would rather be loud than right.
Posted by: Robert P at February 21, 2006 02:33 PM (V/N23)
8
Thank you for actually very effective proving my point for me! You see, people CAN sue without the resolution you claim will allow them to sue! So, now that your only opposition to the resolution has been destroyed by you, why do you now oppose freedom for students?
Posted by: Ogre at February 21, 2006 02:55 PM (/k+l4)
9
What this proves is that there would be an institutional policy that put right on the side of any wacko that wanted to sue. Once again, loud rather than right.
Posted by: Robert P at February 21, 2006 03:05 PM (V/N23)
10
I'm glad to see that you're finally in agreement with me -- that the school senate should have passed this resolution.
Posted by: Ogre at February 21, 2006 03:57 PM (/k+l4)
11
Wait a minute. Now suing (stupidly I might add) because your History prof taught about WWII and the holocaust is the same as suing a prof who fails you because you're a Republican?
I'm sorry Robert, but even attending college in Texas (which is definately NOT liberal), I had a professor threaten to fail me if I DIDN'T write my essay on why Gore (or Kerry) should have won the election. I went to the dean, and ultimately to the PRESIDENT OF THE ENTIRE COLLEGE DISTRICT and told them that I expressed my views that Gore (and Kerry) were not in the least bit qualified to be President, and that I was told I would FAIL THE CLASS if I wrote a paper saying that they did not win, and that it was good they didn't.
Know what I was told, I was told that since he is tenured, that he can teach anything he wants to (even stuff that is not related to the subject matter for the class) and they CAN'T DO ANYTHING ABOUT IT! Meaning, he could have told the class to write an essay about why Islam is better than Christianity. This would have personally made me very upset and uncomfortable, but I could not write anything else without failing, and the school couldn't do anything about it, and guess what, I used that example with the Dean and College District President, and they agreed.
So, as long as these tenured professors are protected in any way, academic freedom does not exist, and there will also be professors teaching what does NOT relate to their subject, and those who threaten to FAIL YOU for not AGREEING with them. And just so you know, I'm not quoting some "right wing site" and saying it was me, it is my personal experience here!
I'm sorry Robert, but even attending college in Texas (which is definately NOT liberal), I had a professor threaten to fail me if I DIDN'T write my essay on why Gore (or Kerry) should have won the election. I went to the dean, and ultimately to the PRESIDENT OF THE ENTIRE COLLEGE DISTRICT and told them that I expressed my views that Gore (and Kerry) were not in the least bit qualified to be President, and that I was told I would FAIL THE CLASS if I wrote a paper saying that they did not win, and that it was good they didn't.
Know what I was told, I was told that since he is tenured, that he can teach anything he wants to (even stuff that is not related to the subject matter for the class) and they CAN'T DO ANYTHING ABOUT IT! Meaning, he could have told the class to write an essay about why Islam is better than Christianity. This would have personally made me very upset and uncomfortable, but I could not write anything else without failing, and the school couldn't do anything about it, and guess what, I used that example with the Dean and College District President, and they agreed.
So, as long as these tenured professors are protected in any way, academic freedom does not exist, and there will also be professors teaching what does NOT relate to their subject, and those who threaten to FAIL YOU for not AGREEING with them. And just so you know, I'm not quoting some "right wing site" and saying it was me, it is my personal experience here!
Posted by: Smoke Eater at February 21, 2006 05:20 PM (K7uqT)
12
And the worst part about that situation, Smokey? That *I* am personally forced to pay those people's salaries. That's just wrong.
Posted by: Ogre at February 21, 2006 08:20 PM (2IrwV)
13
Smoke,
That professor should have been fired, plain and simple. This attempt by the right is just another in a long line of imposing their will on the entire country.
That professor should have been fired, plain and simple. This attempt by the right is just another in a long line of imposing their will on the entire country.
Posted by: Robert P at February 21, 2006 09:44 PM (7X7vQ)
14
Minor correction, RobertP, that's the attempt by the LEFT to impose their views on everyone else by using forced taxpayer funds and a captive audience.
Posted by: Ogre at February 21, 2006 09:56 PM (2IrwV)
15
Even more minor correction, you mean it is the right that is trying to pass laws so that any free speech against their positions will be met with strict censure. Sounds familiar, fascist one might even say.
Posted by: Robert P at February 22, 2006 06:03 PM (7X7vQ)
16
By "censure," you mean that telling college instructors that are getting paid by ME that they can't base their grades for their algebra class on political affiliation or protest attendance, then yes, I'm all for it.
Since you oppose it, does that mean it is ok as me, as an instructor in English to give any student an "A" in my class who donates to the RNC? How about if I spend 20 hours of class time inviting politicians running for office -- only republicans -- to talk to the class. Can I give extra credit for my English class to those students who work on a Republican campaign and not a Democrat campaign?
Since you oppose it, does that mean it is ok as me, as an instructor in English to give any student an "A" in my class who donates to the RNC? How about if I spend 20 hours of class time inviting politicians running for office -- only republicans -- to talk to the class. Can I give extra credit for my English class to those students who work on a Republican campaign and not a Democrat campaign?
Posted by: Ogre at February 22, 2006 08:32 PM (2IrwV)
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